Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #88: Interview with Elizabeth Mohler, Ph.D. Researcher, Educator, Advocate, Scholar, Speaker | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-04-30-2026/ In this episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan ... In this thoughtful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna welcomes Dr. Elizabeth Mohler, newly minted PhD, longtime team member at BALANCE for Blind Adults, and a young leader Donna has known since her earliest days in the field, for a conversation that moves from family kitchen tables in 1980s Brockville to the methodology of critical discourse analysis. Born with congenital glaucoma, Elizabeth walks listeners through her family's 1987 move to Toronto for services, the formative years she spent at W. Ross MacDonald School for the Blind beginning in grade five (where she found community, learned to cook, and discovered swimming, track, trampoline, and choir), her path as the first student with sight loss at Wilfrid Laurier's Brantford campus, her Master of Science in Occupational Science at Western, and her PhD in Health and Rehabilitation Sciences on a four-year SSHRC doctoral fellowship, including the pilot work she contributed to make the SSHRC application itself accessible to JAWS users. The second half digs into Elizabeth's intellectual and professional core. She takes Donna through her doctoral research on Ontario's Direct Funding program, a critical discourse analysis of 51 program documents that produced "chrono-normative citizenship," her own term for the way able-bodied notions of time are used to govern disabled people's care. She shares the dual perspective she carries as a blind adult who also helps support two non-verbal brothers with multiple diagnoses, and makes the case for a more holistic, less binary understanding of caregiving in a country where one in four Canadians is now a caregiver. She traces the origins of her 2016 Elsevier volume Creating a Culture of Accessibility in the Sciences (25 chapters, 200+ citations) and her years at BALANCE for Blind Adults, assistive technology instructor, community engagement lead, accreditation lead, social enterprise team member, and now pre-employment specialist running a five-week Zoom-based program for adults entering or re-entering the workforce. She closes with her hopes for a postdoc co-designing care research with young adults aged 18 to 35 living in long-term care, and a call to embed anti-ableism into the curriculum of every profession that touches disabled lives, teachers, social workers, nurses, doctors, speech-language pathologists. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, through touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just recited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disabled disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles. One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased. I am proud and I am privileged to introduce to you Elizabeth Mohler. But when I first met her, I knew her as Chelsea. So I hope I do not miss and call her Chelsea. Elizabeth. Welcome. Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good. I always knew that you would be going places. My dear. From the first day I met you, I thought this is our future. And here she is. She's graduated with her PhD and let's get going. So, Elizabeth, you were born with congenital glaucoma and grew up in Brockville, Ontario, before your family relocated to Toronto in the 1980s to access services. Can you take our listeners back to those early years and tell us what that journey was like for you and your family, and how it shaped the person that you would become? Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, for sure. So my family and I left Brockville in 1987, so I would have been two. So I guess now everybody knows how old I am. That's right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Look what you've done. Elizabeth Mohler: That's right. Yeah. At the time, the community living movement was starting to blossom. You know, deinstitutionalization conversations were happening. But we, my family, I think, knew at the time that the services we would need as a family were going to be in Toronto. So things like Holland Bloorview shout out to Holland Bloorview. I volunteer with them. The hospital for Sick Children. Schools for the the blind as well as other resources. My family sort of unit is comprised of myself. I'm the youngest and I live with almost total blindness. I have two brothers that live with dual diagnosis that are non-verbal. And I have a couple of stepbrothers as well as my brother Kyle and then my, my parents so we're quite a big family. And so I think, you know, when we moved here in Toronto in the early 90s, like late 80s, really, it was thinking about services. So getting connected with you know, a preschool for the blind things like orientation and mobility. And then later, you know, going, moving from an integrated school where they certainly did their best with programming. But knowing that there was needs and supports outside of the classroom that I would need. So that's where w Ross McDonald came in. So I, I went to started w Ross McDonald in grade five really to gain expanded core curriculum skills. So like daily living skills, extracurricular activities, music, things I couldn't maybe gain in a community school in the same way, at least back then. And so that was a really big moment that kind of shaped who I was. I discovered a love for swimming and sports athletics running track and field, trampoline music. You know, I sang in choirs and really began to sort of find myself and who I was. And I stayed at w Ross McDonald until the end of OAC. Again, I'm dating myself. Because that no longer exists. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Go ahead. Elizabeth Mohler: But after that I, I went to Laurier, Brantford, which is a small campus of the main Wilfrid Laurier and Waterloo. At the time I went there was just under 500 students and I was the first student with vision loss. So, you know, I, I think kind of thinking through the years, I think one thread that for me has always been really important is finding my own voice and dependence you know, being able to be a trailblazer. Certainly being the first student with sight loss at Wilfrid Laurier in Brantford, you know, I was really instrumental in some of their early accessibility conversations and was proud to do that. So I'll, I'll leave that there. But yeah, I think definitely the opportunity to go to a specialized school for, for me was instrumental in helping me become the person I am today. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you said that you attended W Ross MacDonald school for the blind. Starting in grade five. Elizabeth Mohler: Correct? Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For those listeners who may not be familiar with that school, can you describe what that experience was like and how it influenced your education and your sense of identity as a young person with vision loss? Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. So W Ross MacDonald is a, is a school for the blind, where folks generally will come during the week and stay in a, in a lodge or a dorm because people come from all over the province of Ontario. I think at one point it was maybe all over Canada, but I, I think that's no longer. And so really the idea, besides getting a full academic suite of courses is that you're developing skills like life skills like orientation and mobility. You're also with peers that also have have some degree of vision loss. So there's a shared understanding. So it really for me was a place where I found community. You know, I still have some of my closest friends from the school. I think it really helped shape my confidence. You know, when I went to university and I was living in a dorm, it was interesting because in some ways I had more skills than my my sighted classmates who were coming in who maybe had never cooked before or done laundry. I think, you know, for me, again, it really helped me find who I was build community. I think that whether people decide to stay in their local school or whether they decide to attend a specialized schools, very personal. And I think both are right at different times in a person's life. And I think for me, what made it right was just knowing that there's things that my family couldn't necessarily teach me, that I needed to learn to be independent. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you learned to cook while you were at W. Ross McDonald. Elizabeth Mohler: Exactly. Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. I'll have to try this out one of these days Elizabeth Mohler: Exactly. Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Something that really struck me about your story is that you have two brothers who are blind and also live. Live also live with nonverbal autism and other diagnoses. Now, this gives you a perspective that very few people in our field have, and this makes you understand disability both as a person living with it and as a caregiver. How has that dual experience shaped the way you approach your advocacy and your professional work? Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, it's a really important topic. So we know that 1 in 4 Canadians right now is going is, is taking on caregiving work. And that's, that's continuing to grow as, as our population ages and lives longer with more complexities. I think what we don't talk enough about is caregivers who themselves have disabilities. I think sometimes there's a binary when we think about caregivers you know, there's the person over here receiving care and there's a person over here giving care and in, you know, in my PhD work, which we'll talk more about, I trouble that assumption. Because I don't think there's this dualistic caregiver care receiver. I believe we all give and receive care. You know, somebody might be providing physical care to somebody, but that person might make their, their care provider smile or they're, you know, providing financial support to their care provider. You know, I think that there's, there's a lot of work that needs to be done to really look at what we mean by care. And so one of the things that I find is, is challenging in some caregiving spaces is there's not room for caregivers with disabilities. We don't talk enough about it And we should, because we know that the population is aging into disability and more and more disabled people are going to find themselves in caregiving roles. And I think that part of the conversation that needs to happen is really, how do we support caregivers who themselves have access needs? So I provide a lot of support you know, not day to day, but sort of on a more administrative level for, for my brothers. And that's something that when I talk about in caregiving spaces, it's it's interesting to have conversations around what access for a caregiver could look like. So I think it's definitely shaped kind of the things that I become passionate about and that I talk about and study. You know, I think, I think sometimes we conflate providing a service with providing care and I see carers a lot more holistic and something that we all are giving and receiving. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it's quite another not, I shouldn't say undertaking, but, you know, a very challenging environment to be in. Right. Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. For sure. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your academic path took you from a Bachelor of Arts in Contemporary Studies at Wilfrid Laurier University to a Master of science in Occupational science at Western University, and ultimately to a PhD in health and rehabilitation sciences, all on a prestigious four year's SHC doctoral fellowship. What a mouthful. For our listeners who may be blind or partially sighted and considering graduate school, what was it like navigating post-secondary education as a person with a visual disability. And what kept you going through all of those years? Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. I think that, you know, when we think about post-secondary, one of the things that, you know, I always like to talk to folks about is really thinking about understanding, having a really good understanding of what your access needs are, whether it's technology, whether you know, you need a tenant care or sighted guide, because most people aren't going to know unless they're in our field what those needs are and being able to really articulate those needs. I think what's unique about graduate school is that it isn't just what you do in the classroom. In fact, a doctoral level, you're only in your classwork for the first year. Maybe you go to seminar for a couple of additional years, which is essentially once a month, you get together with your colleagues and you talk about your work and you read emerging scholarship and sort of, you know, canonical scholarship in the field and talk about it. But essentially you're out on your own doing, writing, doing research, going to conferences. So you really need to think about your accommodations in terms of like what you're going to need in the classroom, but also what you're going to need beyond that to be successful. So Donna mentioned the four year Social Science Humanities Research Council doctoral fellowship. That's an award that Masters and PhD students can apply for to help fund their research. Elizabeth Mohler: So it's an external it's through the federal government, through something called the Tri-council agencies. So there's a web portal you apply through that portal. And then if you're successful, then you, you receive a scholarship directly to your post-secondary institution. That process for me was not accessible. Back at the back at the time I applied, this was six years ago just for context. They had a lot of drop down menus in their application that jaws wouldn't read. There was a couple of CAPTCHAs, however. One of the things I did early on was I found an email, which is very hard to do on some of these websites you know, government websites and finally connected with somebody. And I was part of a pilot to try and improve the accessibility of the Tri-council application funding application process. So I was pretty, I was pretty pleased to be a part of that. So I think the thing that I always say to students is there's a lot of invisible work that goes into being a disabled student, and you need to pace yourself and you need to have community because I think a lot of the times we feel like we have to fix everything and we feel, we feel like we're kind of we're working to work. I have a colleague and friend who's always saying, we're working to work. Elizabeth Mohler: And I really like that saying because it's all the things we have to do just to work. So I think you really need a community of support around you or a coil of support. I like the coil metaphor because it's multi-layered. It's multifaceted. It speaks to the different levels and layers of support in your, in your life. And I think that's really important to have that support. I also think it's important to acknowledge the emotional labor that students with disabilities take on. But there is, you know, and I think that, and I think that those things are important. And I also think it's, it's really important to recognize that there's also opportunities for leadership. Like these are all skills. When you're talking about yourself as a student that you can, you can position as leadership skills, as, you know, change management skills as presentation skills, as advocacy and activism skills and experiences. So I think it's really important to think about everything you're doing in terms of your skills, because you are going to, you are going to be drawing on those for your whole life. But really to make sure that you build a community around you, that you reach out and ask for help, there's nothing worse, you know, than getting to the end of a semester and realizing that if you'd had accommodations, things would have worked out. Elizabeth Mohler: So asking for help right away being proactive and it's okay if you don't know what you need. Like when I went into my PhD, we were required to be a TA and I didn't know how I could proctor. I didn't know how I could do a scantron. So I wrote a letter to my dean who's lovely. Shout out to Doctor Shannon Sebold. Explaining here are the things I think I can do. Here are the challenges that I foresee as a TA. I'm really excited about the opportunity to be a part of the learning community at Western. And I'd like to talk with you about whether we can, can work out a placement. And I listed the things I could do. I could run seminars, I could you know, mark essays, I could mark presentations. So I think it sometimes isn't always about thinking about, you know, what the barriers are, but where are there opportunities and solutions and coming armed with those when you're, when you're speaking to people, whether it's your department chair, your dean, whether you're speaking to accessibility professionals and just being open because you're not going to know what you're going to need right away necessarily. So having those continuous conversations about your accommodations. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to you really fascinates me in that all of this is not for the faint of heart. You've got to be a go getter. You've got to be able to go out there and, and roll with the times. It's not for the person who is going to sit in the corner and expect everything to be given to them, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have to go out there. You have to forge paths. You have to you literally are on your own a lot of the time. And, and your, your, I wouldn't say your job, but it's, you know, you have to convince the sighted world that, hey, I am vision impaired, but you know what? I can do it. Elizabeth Mohler: Right. Absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Admire anybody like yourself who has been able to go out there, get your PhD, and now, man, you're our future. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. So your doctoral research examined how Ontario's direct funding program shapes the way that disabled persons access attendant services, and how service users resist and negotiate those structures. Can you explain for our listeners what direct funding is all about and why it matters so deeply to people with disabilities, and what the research uncovered about how the system actually works in practice? Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. So Ontario direct funding. So here in Ontario, there's a program called Ontario Direct Funding which essentially gives individuals with physical disabilities who qualify and are approved money to recruit and hire and train and onboard their own personal support workers or attendants. So it was really direct funding is based off the heels of the independent living movement in the 60s and 70s, which asserted that people with disabilities wanted to have control and autonomy over their own care. And so many centers for independent living around the world exist to promote that. So my work actually used something called critical discourse analysis, which really looks at how language and power are interconnected, how language is used to shape how we might look at a phenomenon or a concept like disability, and the ways in which equity and justice are reproduced or not through discourse and text. So critical discourse analysis sort of falls on the heels of discourse analysis of linguistics. And uses a lot of critical scholars like Norman Fairclough and Michel Foucault, Michel Foucault, who I took up in my work, as well as Shelley Tremain, who are kind of critical scholars that look at power. So my work actually ended up I didn't actually, for my project talk to service users of the program. I looked at program texts, specifically 51 program documents that were acquired using a strategic search strategy. And then took each document through an analytic guide and then built for discursive threads based on the results of the analytic guides. After I'd put them into an Excel spreadsheet and looked across for themes and threads. So for discursive threads emerged, which really had to do with one that's my favorite is a term that I coined called chrono normative citizenship, which really kind of, when you break it down, chrono time normative and then citizenship. Elizabeth Mohler: So this really talked about how disabled people are expected to conform to a very able bodied notions and structures of time and how people are expected to break down their care routines and show exactly how much time they're going to need for their care routines in ways that can be very invasive, and specifically looking at how time is used as a governing mechanism to a lot or control care and how people, you know, how techs really look at producing time as you know, the, the less time you need for your care, the better. So very much, you know, in line with sort of capitalist notions of like, you know, we don't, we don't want people taking too much or using too much from the system. You know, I'm kind of really putting this into plain language, but I really like the way that this notion of time operated through my dissertation. So I, I really found for, for my dissertation, I was fascinated with the methodology of critical discourse analysis. I really wanted to sort of understand what was happening in these texts. As someone that lives with a disability and has done quite a bit of work in this field. I'm always fascinated by how disability is produced and reproduced through language, how we see disability, how disability is constructed. And I really wanted to explore that. So that's kind of you know, in a nutshell, what my, what my PhD looked at. And it emerged over time, I was in the beginning going to talk to service users and attendants of the program. But as I dove into my coursework and really started to ask deeper questions, this, the critical discourse analysis was sort of the methodology that I chose to, to carry out my work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I don't know what else to say here. Now in 2016, you and Doctor Mahadeo Sagi, I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly. Co-authored a landmark book published by Elsevier called Creating a culture of accessibility in the sciences. That is a 25 chapter volume that has been cited over 208 times, including in publications like Nature Reviews Chemistry. What inspired you to write that book, and why is accessibility in Stem such a critical issue that needed a resource of that scale? Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. So at the time I was working with Doctor Tzu Chi at the National Educational Association of Disabled Students, and we were working on some practical guides that could be used for faculty and teaching assistants around how to support students with disabilities in science labs and in other practical spaces. So when I say practical spaces, I mean co-op placements, work placements, work integrated learning. You know, the Mahadeo is, is a geneticist and has a lot of experience, extensive experience in science and was really interested in this topic. I was interested more from the perspective of the practical spaces piece. I had applied to a professional program in 2012 or sorry, 2010 that I got into, but ultimately decided not to pursue because at the time the, the program chair was very concerned about how would carry out the co-op placements of someone who was blind. And so at the time, I didn't sort of push, I just applied to ultimately to Western where I did my master's. But that was what sparked my interest in co-authoring the book. And also hearing many stories through my work at the National Educational Association of Disabled students from students with disabilities navigating sort of the practical spaces that accompany the classroom learning. Elizabeth Mohler: So that book really came out of you know, those, those conversations. And I also want to acknowledge there was many contributors as well to the book who wrote about their own experiences in quite a lot of detail. So it was a wonderful way to connect with different faculty. So I think, I think why it's important is I, there's a lot of, I think we don't know what we don't know. And I think the book does a really nice job of unpacking. What are some of the concerns around being in the lab? We have a lot of conversations in the book around bona fide essential requirements. So, you know, what is the ultimate requirement of a course of an assignment? Can it be done in only one way? If so, why? If not, why not? So there was a lot of conversations around disclosure, which is another topic that I've written extensively about. So I think it was an opportunity to talk about Stem or now we would say Stem science, technology, engineering, arts and math. But also to talk about these conversations more broadly. And it really, I think, sparked my interest in disability activism in writing. And ultimately the career path I took. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Balance for blind adults in Toronto has been a real anchor in your career. You have held so many roles there as assistive technology instructor for one community. Community engagement lead as an accreditation lead, social enterprise team member, and now pre employment specialist. Can you walk our listeners through what balance does and why that organization has been so important to you personally and professionally. And I do remember the late Tom Dekker. That's how I met him through balance. Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. Absolutely. So balance for blind adults is not for profit here in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. That provides support to adults living with who are blind or living with low vision or partially sighted in a range of areas. So balance has a large assistive technology program, so providing supports to individuals who wish to learn whether it's a screen reader or magnification or learn how to use their laptop for work. Our assistive assistive technology program is, you know, available in person to folks that live in Toronto and then Ontario wide to folks who are outside of Toronto and want remote lessons or able to have remote lessons. Balance also provides orientation and mobility as well as adaptive daily living skills, but also has a large suite of group programs, including a strength and stability class a number of programs to do with mental health support. So there are two social workers that have lived experience of disability who run peer support programs and individual counseling. So that's a huge part of what balance does. You know, of course, there's the pre-employment program, which is the program I run. And ultimately that program aims to provide individuals that want to start looking for work, the skills to do so. Elizabeth Mohler: So we prepare people to start looking for work, to think about starting to work with an employment service provider. Our curriculum is really built around helping individuals get to know themselves, get to know their skills, learn the technology that they're going to need to be successful in the workplace, as well as connect to community resources and employment service providers. So our program is a five week program. It's on Zoom. And individuals who are thinking about entering the workforce, or maybe re-entering the workforce that want to build some of those pre-employment skills. You know, are welcome to join the program right now. It's in the GTA, but we're hoping to expand the program. I think for me, one of the things that I love to see is somebody that comes in is unsure of what they want to do as, as an individual living with blindness or partial sight. And then at the end of the program has a really good sense of the path they want to take. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: His balance, a provincial organization or national. Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. So right now, balance for blind adults offers in-person support in, in Toronto for orientation and mobility, assistive technology, adaptive daily living skills, as well as our groups that we have. We have a number of groups Ontario wide for mental health supports. So that would be, you know, our peer support program called Sharing Spaces, as well as counseling, individual counseling, and then assistive technology. So those are the two supports that are offered sort of province wide and they would be remote offerings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is balance planning to go national one day? Elizabeth Mohler: I don't know. You'll have to stay tuned. No. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I always I've always wondered this, you know, like you offer a plethora of services and you know, it'll be nice to see you go national one day. Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, as an assistive technology instructor at balance. Okay. You know, tell us about some of the things that, that you've, you've done and, you know, things that you would like to see continue on. Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. I've taught, you know, a lot of people who are new to whether it's an iPhone or a smart home device or a laptop. New to it as somebody with sight loss. So they might have, they might have used technology prior to sight loss and then they're coming back to it. I think for me, what I love is those moments where somebody gets really excited, they see the potential of technology, they are starting to understand how they might use it in their daily lives, or they've gone from sort of being afraid of making a mistake to recognizing that they can troubleshoot their way out of a mistake. What I love to see is the excitement because there is so much potential, as we know, for technology use not just for folks with disabilities, but more broadly. And I'd love to see conversations happening where people are really excited about the technology that they're using because it is a game changer. We know that technology is a game changer for for our community. Absolutely. But again, it comes back to being able to talk about our technology, what we need and understand how, how what we need you know, is impacted in our daily lives. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elizabeth, if you could dream and look forward to the future, I know that one of the things that that really bothers me or concerns me or something I'm continuing to work on is access. Access to online education, online exams. What are your thoughts on this? Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah, the online world and we we saw this during the pandemic really opened up opportunities for people to engage with whether it's post-secondary, whether it's employment, whether it was you know, volunteer or training opportunities. I think one of the. Yeah, for sure. One of the biggest barriers remain sort of accessibility to, to content. I feel hopeful, though. I think there's a lot more conversations, whether it's because of the Accessible Canada Act or here in Ontario. You know, we know that the the Aoda has been around for 20 plus years, and there's still a ways to go, but I am seeing more conversations. So, for example, at Western where where I just finished my PhD, there's been a lot of conversations around how to build accessibility into course content online, into classroom design, into learning module design. So I'm starting to see those conversations and I'm hopeful. And I think a lot of it is, is really thinking about taking a universal design approach. So building things in from the start that are going to impact and benefit everybody. I do think that online learning, like Open University, for example, is a, a great, a great resource for people that want to take any number of courses online and you can do it from anywhere. But I think, again, it's important to recognize that, you know, online learning is one approach and it works for some people and not for others. So I, I think that it's really about thinking holistically about the learner and about the learning experience. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because one size does not fit all. It doesn't mean because you or I, you know, are able to deal with a cell phone, for example, that Eleanor next door should be able to do the same. You know, like she may be afraid, she may she may be saying to herself, oh, this is not for me. It's too intimidating. Right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So with the clock winding down, my final question to you is this what are your hopes and dreams for the future with regard to a education? And I think you've answered a lot of that before and be accessible services for those needing it. Elizabeth Mohler: Yeah. We'll start with the education. My hopes and dreams for the future. I'd like to apply for a postdoc. You know, within a disability studies program or one adjacent to a health and rehab science program. I'd like to do some co-design work to look at the experiences of young adults. So 18 to 35 with disabilities residing in long term care, and how individuals that are residing in these spaces who are young adults might reimagine their care and how those individuals share their care story and how we can learn from their care stories. So doing some co-design work with that community. And we're seeing there was a report that came out from the Ontario Ombudsman in December that talked about the number of young adults with with physical disabilities in long term care, as well as intellectual disabilities. And it's a population that's very near and dear to my heart because of my own family and something I want to explore. So I will be applying for postdocs and you know, hoping for a positive outcome in terms of accessibility for services. Like I think it's such a broad question, but I think what I would say is I wish that there was more. And I'm glad to see some, but I hope it continues education around disability, around systemic ableism, institutional ableism within post-secondary curriculum. So whether that's in education for teachers, whether that's for social workers, whether that's for nurses and doctors and speech language pathologists. So not just looking at this contract construct of disability as something that needs to be fixed or cured, but really embedding sort of anti ableism work into curriculum. And that's what I'm passionate about and that's what I hope to see. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now. Do you think your your future studies would, you know, have you stay in Canada or do you think you might have to travel across the pond? Elizabeth Mohler: Great question. I definitely plan to stay here in Toronto. I have my community here, my coil of support here, and I love Toronto. But the wonderful thing is, you know, there's a number of post-secondary institutions, obviously right here within Toronto, but also, you know, adjacently close. So if I had to take a train, it wouldn't be wouldn't be too bad. I mean, I commuted to London during my my PhD and it wasn't too bad. So yeah, that's my plan for now. I think I'll be staying staying in Toronto. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But what if someone offered you a golden opportunity to study across the pond? Would you go? Elizabeth Mohler: Great question. I hadn't, you know, not one I'd thought of. I think I'd have to consider. There's a lot of factors to consider with, with moving anywhere and yeah, I would have to really look at the opportunity and you know, the, the length and just where I'm at in my own, my own career journey. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you're not adverse to, to really, you know, like, if you were given this wonderful opportunity and I know that, you know, there's so many other factors for you to consider. Would you go? Elizabeth Mohler: I might, yeah, I might. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elizabeth, this has been a very fascinating interview and one where I'm hoping and I know that our listeners would be very much encouraged, motivated to reach for the stars because you've reached for the stars, you've done it. You're on your way. You are future. You keep it up. And it was a pleasure, real pleasure having you. Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you for having me, and I hope you have a lovely rest of your day. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too, and good luck with your board interview tonight. Elizabeth Mohler: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, take care now. Elizabeth Mohler: Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #87: Interview with Blake Steinecke, Product Marketer, Public Speaker, Inclusive AI, Blind Athlete | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-04-29-2026/ In this candid episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna sits down with Blake Steinecke, marketer, accessibility leader, and forward on the United States blind hockey team, to trace his journey from a sighted San Marcos, California teenager to a rising young voice in digital accessibility. Blake walks listeners through the summer before his junior year of high school, when slight blurriness in one eye turned into a Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy diagnosis and the loss of his central vision in both eyes; the steep, often vulnerable learning curve of assistive technology, VoiceOver, JAWS, Braille, a CCTV magnifier, while keeping pace academically; graduating high school above a 4.0 and earning his Bachelor of Science in Business Administration cum laude from Cal State San Marcos a semester early; and his path from software sales and contract accessibility testing into a growth role at an e-learning startup tackling the roughly 70% unemployment rate among working-age blind adults, where he helped drive a 200% increase in marketing qualified leads. In the second half, Donna and Blake dig into the science of marketing accessibility, why companies must obsess over the problem before pitching a solution, why walking the walk beats talking the talk, and what scrappy, community-driven outreach to a blind audience actually looks like. Blake reflects on his San Diego County Board of Supervisors proclamation, his 2024 session on reaching the blind community through marketing at the world's largest assistive technology conference, and how the U.S. blind hockey community raised the bar for what he believed possible after his vision loss in a moment when he was trying to lower it. He closes with a preview of his new role as Digital Accessibility Lead at ServiceNow, life as a husband and father of a nine-month-old, and the philosophy he carries into every room, "seek to understand", which he tells Donna is the bridge from misunderstanding to the kind of connection, innovation, and solutions accessibility actually needs. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound touch and stubborn tech optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just a site in ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law, and most recently, in June of 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our work, our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience, sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Blake Steinecke, welcome to my podcast, and I'm looking forward to the next hour with you. Blake Steinecke: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So let's get started. Welcome to the show. And you grew up in San Marcos, California, with full vision. And then at age 16, right before your junior year of high school, everything changed. Please take us back to that moment when you first noticed the blurriness in your right eye. And please walk our listeners through what happened next. Blake Steinecke: Absolutely. So I grew up with perfect vision. And during the summer before my junior year of high school, I noticed a very slight vision loss in one eye. I thought nothing of it, but just in case. Wanted to go to the doctor. Right. And they noticed something was wrong and had to do more tests. And over the course of a few months with more doctor's appointments, all sorts of tests. My vision in one eye got worse, but they said it'll probably go away. So I thought, you know, it's probably fine until I did end up getting a diagnosis. It test did come back positive. Which is called leber's hereditary optic neuropathy or Lhon. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Blake Steinecke: And in that moment, I knew I would become legally blind and lose my central vision. But as a 16 year old in high school. I had no idea what that meant. I was quickly flooded with lots of questions, of doubt, of how could I keep up in high school? How could I go to college as an athlete? How could I play sports? Could I be in a relationship? Could I get married, have a family? All these questions came flooding through my head. That I would then have to face as vision loss ended up happening in the other eye. A couple months later and progressed worse as I continued to navigate through those things. But it was definitely a emotional and journey and also very logistical, practical thing to, to navigate while simultaneously going through high school and into college. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess at age 16, my goodness, what a terrible year to pick for, for this to happen, right? Blake Steinecke: Yeah, it's, there's, there's never an ideal time. And I'm thankful for the childhood and life I had with horrific vision. And it's a crazy time to adjust to vision loss, but it also allowed me to evaluate and set up my adult life, knowing or knowing what I would be dealing with in adapting for it, which I think was very helpful in ways. Although it would have been nice to hit a pause button on certain areas of life. Take more time to adjust. It's. Sometimes you drink from the fire hose and figure it out as you go. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh gosh. Now, when the doctors confirmed your diagnosis of Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy. Well you know, my goodness, I hope I pronounced this right. Lou hon, and told you that there was no cure and that you were going to lose your central vision permanently. How did you process this as a teenager? What was going through your mind about your future? Blake Steinecke: Yeah, there's definitely a lot going through my mind and a lot of doubts and uncertainties. But I also think just a lot of shock too. You don't really have a framework for how to process these things, as you never expect something like that to happen, especially at a young age. Screen Reader: And notification from outlook. Blake Steinecke: I think there's definitely elements of getting the illusion of control that we think we have over our lives, taken away from us, and realizing that there is. Screen Reader: Notification from. Blake Steinecke: A very thin veil between ability and disability or even life and death. Not that this was a a deadly situation, but at all. It's more so felt like a death to my independence. As I, you know, I mentioned those questions a doubt before. Like I thought my independence was done. I thought that just a lot of this life would not be very fun, exciting at all, as there's a lot of subconscious stereotypes I had towards disability that I then had to put on my on my self. And I think it was really valuable and important to have friends, family and church community around me that could help me just process remind me of the hope that I do have in these hard times. Navigate knowing how to find joy amidst it. But it was definitely very challenging. And it takes years of processing, accepting. And it's also just, I'm, to this day, in ways processing that news as going through visual loss is something I, I, you, you never arrive. It's always a new area of life to navigate it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can just imagine. I mean, I am legally blind, but to have this happen to you at that, you know, at such an age, age 16, I think, my goodness, I, I. Now you are to wrap it. Sorry you had to rapidly learn assistive technology. Screen readers keyboard shortcuts essentially to rebuild how you interacted with the world while still being a high school student. What was that learning curve like for you, and what do you wish that someone had told you at the start of that journey? Blake Steinecke: Yeah, I would definitely say it was a steep learning curve, but I don't even know if that does it justice. I started out just by, you know, I needed a new phone. And so I got an iPhone knowing that Apple products were more accessible and just messing around with the Magnification features Siri. Starting to use VoiceOver more, and I also got a Mac desktop for the similar reasons, but then when it came to school, I. During my senior year, I met for an hour every day with a teacher for the visually impaired while classmates of mine were getting out of school early with a free period, I was staying and learning. I did learn Braille. I don't use it much, but I was learning how to use jaws magnification tools. And a lot of it was really self-taught or having support in the self-taught process as my teachers for visually impaired were so tremendously helpful and supportive, but they didn't have other students using jaws in this context or it's also just if you don't use it yourself, it can be hard to, to teach as well as a lot of the websites or programs I needed to use, like weren't very accessible at all. And a, yeah, that's like a whole other conversation, but it would be a lot of just taking way longer on assignments, learning how to get my teachers to send me materials ahead of time. It was super vulnerable and nerve wracking to bring out my Refreshable Braille display, a different type of laptop. Blake Steinecke: Probably the biggest thing was like my CCTV magnifier. Like all these things are very embarrassing, just vulnerable to bring out in class when no one else is using it. And you can just definitely be insecure about it. So there's definitely a social aspect to it. And also a homework takes longer late nights trying to just like look up and figure out better tools to use. So it was really hard. And But something I. I work hard at and I think something I wish I knew is I was told at the start is like technology is probably the most important skill to learn. I remember being told like learning to advocate is one of my biggest goals, which I think that is going to take the top of the list. But in terms of like just other tangible skills in what will take me the furthest will be technology. And also maybe even on top of that too is it's, it's a technical thing to learn, but it's probably even more an emotional journey of something to figure out. It's humbling when doing these incredibly rudimentary typing lessons where I'm like, what, what am I doing here? Learning this basic, like kids typing program. And then you're like, oh, because I'm so frustrated trying to memorize all these shortcut keys and so on. And you learn how there's accessibility barriers and it's all incredibly frustrating and can be very emotional. And so I think like having that heads up at the start would be super duper valuable. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to you, Blake. I, I, I'm sort of having visions of this teenager being hit with so many things from so many directions and having the will to do it and not give up. You know, I, I sure admire how far you've come and what you've done. I mean, like, I, I don't know what else to say, but, you know, I guess it's like for me, it's an analogy to swimming in the ocean and you have big waves coming at you, you know, that there are sharks out there, you know that they're not too many people around you. You can't swim very well. I mean, oh my gosh. Oh, Lordy. Blake Steinecke: Yeah. Living in San Diego by the beach. That's quite an analogy. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. Blake Steinecke: But but I would add on to that too. I think what motivated me a lot at the start was trying to act like the sighted version of Blake while simultaneously trying to prove people wrong. And I think that got me far, but was really grounded in insecurity and fear as well. And I, it was like, it did get a good outcome of like having me quickly adapt. And yes, there was like lots of good motivators of like, I value working hard and I think of myself as a curious, adaptable person. But I think there were those motivators there, as well as I give such huge, tremendous credit to the people around me family, friends, teachers that when I thought I should lower the bar, they were like holding it where it should be. And that was like such a big influence and something I'll probably share more on later. But just wanted, wanted to give a little more context there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Despite everything that you were dealing with, you graduated high school with a GPA of about above 4.0. Then you went on to earn your Bachelor of Science in Business Administration from Cal State San Marcos with a 3.7 7GPA, which is a cum laude, I'm a first semester early. As someone who fought for accessible education through the courts. I have to ask you, Blake, what were the biggest barriers that you faced in the classroom and how did you push through them? Blake Steinecke: Totally. I could spend such a long time talking about this, but I would say digital accessibility barriers were were one of the biggest barriers. And I think that shows up tangibly in a software that I had to use that wasn't accessible with my screen reader. But at a higher level, just like the, the systems of navigating working with the disability support service office to get my accommodations and tests scheduled with them for having a longer time or a reader and working with the IT department to get my course materials converted and with my professors to make sure I got the materials I need from them. And there's probably all sorts of other people in that process. It's really hard as a student with a disability to have that part time job added on. I'll call it. And a story. I could give an example too, of some of these barriers I faced were there was one class that I submitted the first assignment and I got a 50% on it and realized, oh, like this requires a lot of formatting that I was missing and just accessing the textbook with jaws. And it was a hard class, very stringent grading. And then the first test comes around and I set the curve on the multiple choice. And there's this dilemma of I like know the content, but I couldn't access part of the assignment. Blake Steinecke: So I got a bad grade. And then I learned, okay, I need to get my this textbook on a PDF. I need to go so I can zoom in and see the formatting better on my computer or, and I need to go to my professor's office hours. And then the next assignment, I got 77%. Last assignment, I got 100%. So it goes to show that it's not like my intelligence that's severe. It's the tools and accessing things that can be the barrier and those can be adapted to meet my intelligence. I'll call it extra work. And it's hard when there's things like that that could impact your performance. Or there was two classes I, I got season because I never could get the online homework in program to work with my screen reader. And this in more recent years, like they've there's more requirements to where you have to have like accessible software for all students. But if you don't have that in place, it'll have a big impact on grades, performance and all other things. So lots of work arounds, lots of again, late nights trying to figure out best tech setup that I could use for driving at school. And then another conversation is then navigating my disability, my technology when doing internships and jobs while in college. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, Blake, just listening to you here, I'm, I'm thinking, you know, you must have gotten a lot of motivation from having graduated one term early, right? You knew that you had the guts to keep on going. You knew that you had the intelligence and you did keep on going. You know, and a lot of what you're talking about here, I think still exists with with any blind or visually impaired student going through university. But it's it's amazing that you have managed to weather all of these storms and look at where you are today. Blake Steinecke: So yeah. Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're very welcome. And I mean it, I mean, like, as someone myself who in my own way has had to go through a lot of hoops to get where I've wanted to go. I sure admire anyone like yourself who, you know, you came from something unexpected that happened to you. And my gosh, I don't know what else to say. Yeah. Occlusive. You went from a contract marketing consultant to an accessibility manager to growth manager, and you She achieved a 200% increase in marketing qualified leads. Exclusive is an E learning platform. That that is tackling the roughly 70% unemployment rate among working age blind individuals. Individuals. Tell us about that mission and how was that marketing work? Directly supported it. Blake Steinecke: Totally. So my background has been across marketing and accessibility roles, and I started after school doing a software sales role. I did a marketing role for a mountain biking gear company. I started a YouTube channel about assistive technology and did some accessibility testing contract roles, which was able to help me pivot to into this role that I had an exclusive, and it was a great experience where I got to bring together my marketing and accessibility background and get to work for a mission that I'm very passionate about, especially around education, as we have been discussing, is an area I feel strongly about for accessibility. And marketing was a very cool place that I was able to help further that mission. And we just reached the blind community through marketing. Marketing isn't always an area that you hear about in accessibility conversations outside of maybe content accessibility and make marketing things accessible. But when it comes to mission driven startups and organizations like inclusive, it's really at the core of how are you at the core of the success of the business of how are you reaching your customers, telling the story, growing the mission. And so I think it was neat to be in that role that is uniquely cross-functional. Especially when it comes to like communicating the product, being able to have lived experience and understanding of it is really valuable. As you have to be tactful of how do you speak to the community and just effectively go about your marketing there. So that's just like a little bit of how that role was. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will tell you, Blake, I am, I am not very good at marketing and thank God for Aaron, who we both know very well. I, I try to stay away from marketing, but marketing is a part of our daily lives, isn't it? Blake Steinecke: Totally. It's what you're doing on this podcast right now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That that's true. You know, when you think about it, every little thing you do is marketing, right? Blake Steinecke: Yes, absolutely. I think it's a helpful reframe, like looking at so much of your life experience. It's been about influencing, making change, telling stories, advocating. And that's like so much about like what marketing is about. But sometimes we can think marketing is just advertising or something, but it's, it's a lot more than that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. Now, one thing that stands out in your career is your unique experience, not just in your lived experience. You sit at the intersection of product marketing, communication, and accessibility in a way that very few people in this industry do do. How do you see that combination of skills making a difference for the companies and communities that you work with? Blake Steinecke: Yeah, it's been a unique combo that I've stumbled into, and I think something that really jumps out at the crossroads of a lot of that experience is the value of communication in this space. From one of some of my first roles in accessibility really emphasized that whether it was at fable, doing user interviews and usability testing was all about communicating and explaining my experience or with doing testing with the Blind Institute of Technology. Mike has always talked about bringing examples and it's all about how you can best communicate things. But if we zoom out more looking at marketing a lot. There's so many people in organizations that have these amazing missions. And they, these, the work that they're doing is, at the end of the day, it can only be good as the people they reach or are only as good as those who know about it. And so and it's also a field that can be difficult to communicate it, and it has to be made understandable to people. And that is all something that marketing can play a role in. We could also look at it at the angle of marketing is what can help drive leads and revenue and grow the business. And there's so many people that are in accessibility because of the, the value that they're passionate about it. And that it's also there's also this angle that businesses need to grow and to thrive and to make money. Blake Steinecke: We're not, we're not just in it for the money. But you need to be able to drive business growth if we want to make a difference within all these organizations were involved in. Hopefully that that makes sense that I'm trying to communicate there. But it just, I guess it just goes back to like, how are you driving business value accessibility? This could be a conversation of a accessibility services company that's trying to get clients. It could be, how are you communicating the value of accessibility internally in a large company? Lots of different angles to look at it. It also can be a very abstract or challenging area to figure out. And there are playbooks in ways, but there's also I would highly recommend having like a growth marketing or a like scientist mindset in terms of run the scientific method, test things, see what works it, evaluate the results and adjust accordingly. And that's just like one of the most valuable ways of looking at it. But accessibility, as so many people talk about, it's it's not one person's job, and it requires the effort across teams and all sorts of people and marketing and communications at a higher level. It's able to work cross-functionally to bring people together to make things understandable, more understandable to more audiences, which I feel like makes it such a powerful driver of success for accessibility and disability inclusion. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, a lot of people, and I am I am one of those, you know, we sometimes fail to really understand the science of marketing. There's a definite science to it, a different philosophy to it and a very, you know, a successful person is one who listens to what the market wants, not what you want to give to the market. Blake Steinecke: Right? Blake Steinecke: Yeah, that's a super good point. And I think it's I'm trying to think I'd explain this like there's the, the problem and, or the solution that you can communicate to people, right? And sometimes in accessibility, we can communicate just a solution or just the problem. And contextually those two things are very different depending on the audience, the person. And I think we really have to get more obsessed with the problem to, to create better solutions. That's where we could maybe see issues if maybe an able bodied person or a sighted person is, is making a sighted solution for a blind person. If I, if I may use some of those terminologies, but I think truly understanding the problem, knowing how to speak to that problem And then allows you to, to more properly, like bring in a solution. Hopefully that makes sense. I can try to give more examples, but just kind of spoke to me with, with your response there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think my philosophy is for every problem, there is a solution. And former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has always said, you got to make it better than possible. And for me, that philosophy continues to work. Now, you have presented at the season Assessing Assistive Technology Conference. Okay. The largest event of its kind in the world. In 2024, you presented your session focused on how to reach the blind community through marketing. This something that I am very, very passionate about as well. What do you think are the biggest mistakes companies make when trying to market to people who are blind or visually impaired, and what should they be doing instead? Blake Steinecke: Yeah, I'll split this between companies that specifically are trying to target the blind community, like in assistive technology company, for example, and then maybe just more broadly, tech companies or any company that's not accessibility first. I'll call it if we go more on the like assistive tech route. I think that this, it just can be so challenging to figure out reaching the blind community And there are so many different like marketing tactics you can do. Blake Steinecke: And I think that there's an opportunity for companies to be a bit scrappier with how they go about their marketing to reach the blind community. There's a big challenge of you can't just like run Facebook or YouTube, Google ads that target screen reader users or people who are blind. It's, it's not a thing. You can do things such as place advertisements within a podcast email newsletters, YouTube channels, collaborate on content PR to collaborate with these audiences that are already curated and targeting the blind community is like one angle of where you kind of have to be scrappy and also connects to the point of being very community driven. Since it's hard to find these audiences, you have to work hard to build and own your audience. Yes, this is a lot harder and takes a longer term play. But building your audience, building your email list, creating community virtually or even in person is super duper valuable. Those are like a couple marketing tactics I see. But zooming out a little more, I think it's a, a market research challenge or opportunity of, you know, there, unfortunately, there's plenty of assistive technology companies that we see come and go. And sometimes, you know, we can get the pattern recognition and see, I don't think this company will last. Blake Steinecke: And there could be various reasons for it. But I think it goes back to the market research point of No, there's there's a blind community want this, need this. Can they afford it? Is there maybe another app or service that already does this well enough? Like what? What is the value of it? I think like asking those questions and understanding before going to market is super valuable. And then also like continually having that like feedback looped back into your product development. So you're continuously improving. And at the end of the day, if you develop a good product, you're going to be able to leverage word of mouth which as we know, is the biggest thing for getting word out in the blind community. So those are a couple like challenges, opportunities I see for assistive tech companies. And looking at just bigger non accessibility first companies. I think, yeah, there's one angle, there's various angles of this conversation. One is recognizing, excuse me, people who are blind or have disabilities. They're they're out there. There's more than you think. And they want to buy your stuff, but they won't buy your stuff if it's not accessible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Blake Steinecke: If you are doing this great work to make things accessible, like please, please, please talk about it, people, we want to know about it. Blake Steinecke: And then, you know, there's a right and a wrong way of going about it. So if you are figuring this stuff out, like hire people with disabilities and incorporate them into the process for how you're going about these things. I think about like a big example, but Apple has done so much to improve the accessibility of their products. I, there's representation in some of the media they put out I think about the song remarkable. They recently put out and, you know, I've bought so much money, I, I bought some, I bought so much Apple, so many Apple products, spent a lot of money, and then I turned into an Apple Advocate to my friends and family. Because if a person who's blind finds something they like, they want to tell people about it. So there's like a, a referral effect that you have. So I think if you are making things accessible. Talk, talk about it, do storytelling around it create resources that will, you know, whether it's like a screen reader guide tutorials, I think is super valuable and speaks super strongly to people like me that want to know how my technology may work with it. And I would also look at getting involved with any of the blindness organizations in your area just to start learning, partnering, sponsoring, supporting just to get to support the work they're doing and see how you can align your brand with theirs as Collaboration is key in this space. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think a lot of companies could be guilty of not being patient enough when it comes to understanding what accessibility means, why it is important, and how to move forward with it. And you have other companies who pretend to be maybe the word pretend is a very abrasive word, but, you know, they come out here and say, well, you know, we are experts in accessibility. And at the end of the day, they're not really they're not really experts. You know, we deal with all this. Yeah. Blake Steinecke: I totally it's hard. And I think that's where. Blake Steinecke: You know, I think some of what I was saying could be taken multiple ways. When I say like talk and show what you're doing, I think it's don't just like talk the talk like walk the walk. And can you give us examples of where you're walking the walk? Right. If your product isn't there and accessible, like then don't worry about how you are marketing to the blind community and beyond. It's, it's an internal conversation. But please do like the market research part of like understanding the community's. Screen Reader: Needs. Blake Steinecke: When developing those products. And that will always then be feeding into the communications later on and how you're then reaching that community. But we want to hear more clearly from the people that are actually walking the walk. And people will flock towards that if you aren't, it's not like a, a jab, but just know where you're at in the process and areas to improve. And we're all here to celebrate the progress. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well said. Now the clock is starting to turn, you know, wind down on me. But here comes a very favorite question of mine, because I think we're both very passionate about hockey. I'll tell you a little bit about me. I played on a mixed team of girls and boys or men and women, but my career lasted just three games because on the third game, I was belted right across the rink by a big guy, and I when I got up, I said, you know what, Donna? It's time to leave. So you are a forward on the United States blind hockey team, and you have been representing your country for more than seven years. I understand that you initially dismissed the idea of blind hockey when you first heard about it. What changed your mind and what has the sport given you that you did not expect? Blake Steinecke: So I grew up playing multiple sports. Roller hockey was one of them. And when I heard about blind hockey, I was skeptical. I thought it was slow, boring, that people were probably weird, and I didn't want to do it. But there was an event that wasn't far for me to travel to. And so I went to it. I checked it out. And so I could more accurately assess it. And I remember just going into the locker room and realizing, wait a second, like these people are just like me. This is like any other hockey, hockey locker room. And playing the game, I realized these were the adjustments I needed. But felt like the same game I was used to. And just quickly fell in love. And I joke with people that half the reason I play blind hockey is just for the community. I would argue that that percentage is higher than that. In all honesty, because really the biggest thing, I think it gave me a community that raised the bar for what I thought I could do after my vision loss in a time where I was trying to lower it. Blake Steinecke: And it also gave me an environment where I could learn how to adapt and overcome adjusting to my vision in an area that was fun. So that I could apply that mindset. I was learning into areas that weren't as fun or more challenging, or kind of going back to some of the more vulnerable challenges I was sharing earlier. So I'm so thankful for that community. It's brought me the mindset that it's shaped. And yes, it's fun to, but those other things are so much more important. And I have a lot of conversations like this that will revolve around hockey. And I'm so glad to get to share on all the other things we covered. Because hockey is what has fed into all those other areas that are so much bigger, more important, more challenging. In all honesty. So that's a bit of my journey with hockey. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think, you know, like getting into hockey has certainly, you know, like enhanced and expanded your mind, your experiences, your confidence, my goodness, you know, and you received a formal proclamation from the San Diego County Board of Supervisors recognizing your advocacy for inclusion and accessibility. You have spoken at K through 12 schools at your alma mater business college and accessibility training. When you stand in front of a room full of students, full of students or professionals and share your story, what is the one thing that you most want them to walk away? Understanding about? Blindness is all about. And what is possible. Blake Steinecke: One of the things that jumps out across a lot of presentations is to seek to understand. I think that it's a high level philosophy of mine that has come from my lived experience, where I have navigated a lot of being misunderstood and deeply desiring to be understood. So I think on a personal level yeah, seeking to understand upon, on top of that, like, I think it's, it's being curious. And asking good questions. I think questions are the are, are the bridge that travels across misunderstanding to understanding. And when it comes to things professionally of how do you approach accessibility? How do you make products that are accessible and inclusive? I think it starts with seeking to understand the experiences, the challenges, the life of people with disabilities. And it's a never ending journey of seeking to understand the problems and trying to understand affect effective solutions. So I think this is something that is both personally practical professionally impact so many areas of accessibility and really can just create a lot of strong connection and just innovations and solutions in these areas. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And my final question, Blake, what's next for Blake? Where are you going? What are your hopes and dreams? Blake Steinecke: Totally. Yeah, it's, first of all, it's crazy to reflect on all that has happened in my life. And, you know, I'm still young, and I couldn't imagine what all that already has happened in spite of so many doubts. To have the things that I have doubted is, is very powerful. But what's next for me? I just started a new role as a digital accessibility lead at ServiceNow, and I'm excited to grow at my career professionally within a larger tech company and experience what that's like and apply a lot of the experience that I've gained so far. And in the future, we will see what all happens, but excited to just continue to grow as a husband, as a dad of a nine month old and figuring out life beyond that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I think our future is brighter just listening to you. You are one of our leaders for the future, for now and for the future. I, I have a lot of hope in you. I have high dreams for you. I've never met you. And I hope that one day I do get to meet you. Blake Steinecke: Absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, congratulations, Blake, on all that you've done, all that you've accomplished. It's not been easy. And, you know, a husband, a dad. Now you have the opportunity to help shape the future of your little one, right? Blake Steinecke: Totally. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So I want to thank you for having taken the time to be on our Remarkable World Commentary podcast. And if you know you want to contact me offline, please do not hesitate. In the meantime, thank you again for having given us this interview. I think it's an inspiration for anyone who may be sitting there saying, well, I'm not sure. I don't know where to go or whatever. You're it, you've done it and you're doing it. So congratulations again and thank you again. Blake Steinecke: Of course, I appreciate the opportunity, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. We will talk offline. And you have a good rest of the day and good luck with your new job. Blake Steinecke: Thanks. Have a great day, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Thank you. Now, bye bye. Blake Steinecke: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #86: Interview with Pam Cusick, Senior Vice President, Driving Growth, Outreach & Patient Voice Integration, Rare Patient Voice https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-04-21-2026/ In this heartfelt episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Pam Cusick, Senior Vice President of Rare Patient Voice, to explore how patient-centered healthcare research is reshaping the relationship between people living with medical conditions and the companies developing treatments, products, and services for them. Pam traces her 30-year path in the field back to her first job working on FDA blood-donor screening research, then walks through how Rare Patient Voice has grown into a global community of more than 200,000 patients and caregivers spanning 1,500+ conditions across nine countries, compensating participants $120 per hour and paying out more than $8 million directly to patients and caregivers since the company was founded in 2013. She details the straightforward sign-up process, the deeply therapeutic value participants describe in finally being heard without judgment or fear of burdening loved ones, and what Rare Patient Voice's recent acquisition by Konovo, a tech-first healthcare intelligence firm backed by Frazier Healthcare Partners, means for expanding those opportunities even further. The conversation takes an especially personal turn when Donna shares her own story: born with very little vision, gaining remarkable sight through a cornea transplant as a teenager, and then losing it again in 2004 to a severe retinal detachment. She asks Pam, candidly, whether any current research into sight restoration or vision-related implants might offer her a place to share her voice and help others walking a similar path. Pam commits on the spot to searching her client database, connecting Donna with Rare Patient Voice's patient advocacy team, and raising the possibility of featuring Donna as a "Weekly Warrior" on the company's social channels. The episode closes as a living demonstration of the very principle Pam champions throughout the interview, that lived experience, when genuinely listened to, is where better products, better services, and more dignified care begin. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate and accessibility consultant, an author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian. Not just to cited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was extremely humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal, and this goal is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into every day practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased and privileged to welcome Pam Cusick to the Remarkable World Commentary podcast. Welcome, Pam. Pam Cusick: Thank you so much for having me, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's my pleasure. So, Pam, you have spent more than 30 years helping organizations to listen carefully, act responsibility, act responsibly, and inform decisions. Before we get into the details of what you do today, I would really love for our listeners to hear your story. What drew you to into health care research in the first place, and what has kept you passionate about it for three decades? Pam Cusick: So I can go back to my first job. I worked for a social science research organization. And the, the project that I was first hired for was to, it was for the FDA and it was to improve screening for blood donors. And so I spent months and months in blood collection sites doing administering surveys and then doing the analysis. And what was really remarkable about that was we found that answering the way you asked the screening questions of people really made a difference in whether they answered honestly. So at the time, there were kind of indirect questions that were asked around risk factors for HIV and then more direct questions. And that's what we were testing. And we found that there was a statistically significant difference where people would self-identify and ask for their blood not to be used for for transfusions because they felt they had a risk factor, but they didn't want to say it, they didn't want to say it during the interview. So that was just like a pivotal moment where I really saw the impact of what I was doing, really from end to end. And it it kind of kept up the whole time. You know, from, from then until now, I've worked on so many interesting projects around healthcare and disease areas on advertising for public health issues and things like that. And it, it really is it really makes you feel good when you feel, when you can see that you have made a difference and that the work you're doing is changing lives. And so that's what's kept me with it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Just a quick question offline. I once went to give or to donate blood and I was told that I couldn't do that because I had a cornea transplant. And they said that because it's a foreign body in within my system, I couldn't give blood. Is this true? Pam Cusick: I actually don't know. I know that the different criteria are added at different times, so it may be if you have had a transplant you are not able to give. I know certain being exposed to certain conditions being in certain countries, there are all sorts of, of things that might seem arbitrary but are actually, you know, impact the safety of the blood supply. So it could be that somehow having had a, a cornea transplant impacts the, you know, I guess the, the potential for transfusions and someone else, I really don't know that part of it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Okay. You are the senior vice president, that rare patient voice. And this is a company that connects patients and caregivers with researchers who need their perspectives. For those listeners who may not be familiar with how healthcare market research works, can you walk us through what our patient voice actually does and why it matters so much to the patient community? Pam Cusick: Of course. So we're patient voice. We connect people with all kinds of opportunities to share their lived experience with different medical conditions. So there are pharmaceutical companies, medical device companies that are looking for patient insight about a product or service that they either are thinking of developing or something that they have already developed and they need input on, or maybe it's already on the market and they're looking for how to advertise it. It really spans the whole whole Lifespan of of drug development and device development where patient voices are needed. Now, if you go back to the really the 1990s there, that's when the direct to consumer advertising was approved. So in a lot of countries, you can't advertise directly to consumers with for blood, for blood, sorry for for different drugs. But here, of course we can. But it wasn't allowed prior to that. And what the most common thing to do would be to, was to ask doctors what they thought patients thought. So instead of going to the source pharmaceutical companies and researchers would go to the doctor and say, well, do you think a patient would take this drug if it had these side effects? And the doctor would say, sure. Well, because, you know, if it if it cured this, then they would certainly do that. Pam Cusick: But then you ask the patient, the patient would say something entirely different. So it, you know, came to a point where patients were, you know, no longer wanted to be in the background and they had the opportunity to share their voices. So we have built a community of over 200,000 patients and caregivers who we connect with, with these opportunities to be in a focus group or do an interview or complete a survey where they're sharing about their experience or, or commenting on a medical device or a program that's out there in the world and helping to make that better. And the reason it's so important is that patients are the experts on their conditions. They live with those medical conditions day in, day out, 24 over seven, and they really know more about their life lived with that medical condition than anybody else. So asking a doctor is great. It only gives you part of the picture though. So here when we are, and when we allow patients to share their experience and share their voice. You create better products. You create better services that serve those people who actually need them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So really, it's all about teamwork between the researchers, the doctors, and the patients, right? Pam Cusick: Absolutely. Yes, definitely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what is some or what are some of the most you know, what do patients come? What do patients find most important at the top of the list when it comes to research? Pam Cusick: Well, you know, they the comments we get back from patients are often that they feel so valued and they feel like it's almost therapeutic. They've been able to share this, you know, this lived experience with someone who really understands their condition and understands, you know, the, the, the treatment area. So when they talk about maybe the side effects or they talk about, you know, how their mobility issues, for example, they're talking to someone who really has done some deep research and understands their condition and now is eliciting kind of more granular detail from those patients. And they really feel like they're, they're being heard and they feel like they're valued for their time and their experience. Speaking of valuing them for their time and their experience, we also pay them for their time, which I did not mention. They earn $120 an hour for participating in this research. Which, you know, I think is a, you know, a nice amount for spending, spending an hour with someone, but more importantly, they really want to be able to make a difference. They want to help other people who might be diagnosed with that condition later on. Perhaps that person could skip a step and, and be you know, maybe avoid some pitfalls that they did a lot of in rare disease, especially people are often can take them ten years to be diagnosed and before that they're diagnosed with 7 or 8 other things. So for patients who are, you know, living today with a particular condition, if they can help others to kind of not be misdiagnosed, that's also very important to them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You do much work with blindness related research. Pam Cusick: We do have have projects that are related to blindness, vision loss, other glaucoma, things like that. So there, if there are people working on a product or a program for people with blindness, then we will likely get requests to connect people who are blind or who have vision loss with those projects. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: At the end of this interview, I'd just like to mention my story and see whether, you know there is any possibility for some sort of teamwork with you, but let's let's move on. Pam Cusick: Absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Rare Patient Voice has built a panel of more than 200 000 patients and caregivers caregivers across more than 1500 diseases in nine countries. That is an extraordinary number. How does your team go about finding and reaching patients, especially those living with rare conditions, who may feel invisible in the broader health care system. Pam Cusick: So we meet the patients really where they are. And by that, I mean we go to a lot of patient events. So we might go to a National Hemophilia Foundation conference or a national sickle cell conference. And we exhibit there. We set up a booth and people can come and talk to us and we'll explain what kinds of research they might be involved in. And if they're interested, they can then sign up with us. Some of these events are more focused around rare disease. Some of them are more common conditions. But we try to go to a wide variety of, of events so that we can meet as many people as we can to, or, and invite them to join us. The other way that we meet people is through connecting with them through what we would call referral partners. A lot of organizations would call it an affiliate program, where those people are kind of like ambassadors for us. And they may have a community, a regional community of, of patients with the one particular condition, right? And they will can reach out to their community. And if people sign up to participate in research, we then donate money back to their organization to help to help defray their costs or support them. So some of those are individuals. Some of those are organizations. But it's, it's been a nice, a nice way to meet and connect with people. We now have over 6000 referral partners all around the world who help us to connect with patients and connect with family caregivers and bring them into our community. So we can offer them opportunities to participate in research. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Any affiliates with Canada? Pam Cusick: We do. We have we actually have a community of patients in Canada. I, I would have to look up the number, but it, it could be somewhere around 20,000 or so patients and family caregivers in Canada right now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, terrific. One of the things I find so compelling about rare patient voices is that it was built on relationships rather than technology. One conference at a time, one walk at a time, one advocacy partnership at a time. And as someone who oversees everything from business development to patient advocacy to marketing, how do you maintain that personal community first approach as the company scales to a global leveller. Pam Cusick: So I think, you know, the the key really is to, you know, go to these events to interact with the patients. You know, that's the, the first thing we, we try to do and, and keep our, you know, our foot in the door. So we are actually talking to patients and not too far away from that. The other thing is we are constantly interacting with them through our patient advocacy team, through our our research team that, that connects them with we call it field operations. So they are the ones who are connecting them with the researchers. And they will be emailing with the, with the patients and with the caregivers and, and answering questions and sometimes getting on the phone with them. So I think staying available to people when they have questions, when they want, you know, they need support. Our patient advocacy team is very, very active on social media. So they interact with our community on Facebook and with threads and all these things. I don't know about Instagram and tick tock, tick tock. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tick tock, tick tock. Pam Cusick: Yeah, exactly. All of these different platforms where they're meeting the patients in our community and they're, they're highlighting, I think every other week, maybe it is, they'll highlight a, or maybe it's weekly, a weekly warrior and tell about that person's story on our social media. So people, other people in the community can see that they're not alone there. There are people like them out there in the world, and particularly in rare conditions, you know, it can be very isolating and lonely. So when you can connect with other people who you see, oh, they have the condition that I have, or they have a similar condition to what I have. I think it just makes you feel a little bit less lonely and, and I I think that also helps them to enjoy and really trust our, our community and our organization because we're trying to connect deeply with them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, this resonates so much with me because when I talk to you after we finish online here I'll tell you my little story. Pam Cusick: So okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. So your company has paid more than $8 million directly to patients and caregivers since it was founded in 2013. That number sure tells a very powerful story on its own, but I would love to hear what that means from the human side. What do patients and caregivers tell you about what it feels like to be compensated for sharing their experiences. And what does that compensation represent? Beyond the dollar amount. Pam Cusick: So I think I'll answer the second part first. So beyond the dollar amount it represents that patients are being valued by the by industry. So by pharmaceutical companies, by agencies that are creating products and services for them, by medical device companies. They are valuing the patient and their insight that they have something important to bring to the table. So I think that's the beyond the actual dollar amount. It's really a, a bigger, a bigger thing that we are, we are now valuing these people who are the people that we are serving, right? You know, if you're developing a product for somebody with a, in a particular treatment area, those are your your customers. But, you know, again, as I mentioned before, previously, no one was asking them about it. So I think it does represent this a, a shift to really valuing those people and their insights. You know, in terms of what they feel, you know, what the patients and caregivers tell us it's, you know, feeling like they're finally heard you know, the, the isolating part of having a medical condition which, you know, I hear often is that people, they don't always want to keep telling their, their family members about their struggles, about their pain, about their challenges, because they feel like they're burdening their family. And you know, and, and family members want to support their, the patients in their lives. Pam Cusick: And that is, that is true. But I can understand why they, you know, sometimes they don't want to continue to share, you know, the daily pain or the daily struggles with just getting out of bed. And so they keep it all inside. But then when they have the opportunity to share it with a researcher, it's like the floodgates open. This is somebody who without, you know, judgment, without, you know, them, the patient having to feel like they're burdening anybody. This is a person who's saying, tell me all the things. Tell me everything that happens during the day. Tell me all of your struggles, all of your pain, all of you know the good things and the bad things and so on. And it's, it is just a therapeutic experience in some cases where they feel like they can maybe share things that they've not shared with family members because they don't want to worry them. And so I think it's, you know, it serves two purposes. It, it, their insights do improve products and improve services. And that's for sure. But to the individual, I think it provides a higher value. It's that internal feeling that you are you are valued and that you are being heard. And I think that's really important. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I've had a lot of these feelings throughout my own life and I can certainly resonate with what you're saying. You know, like you feel extremely lonely when you don't want to burden your family members with, with certain, you know, feelings or, you know, and you're afraid to tell them because you don't want to overstay your welcome with, with their listening ear. They want to help you, but you are afraid to tell them. So it really does help if, if you know, like someone like myself, if I were able to talk to a researcher and say, hey, this is what I'm feeling, this is what has happened, whatever, whatever. So I certainly can resonate with what you're saying, you know? Pam Cusick: Yeah, I think it's, it's you wouldn't be surprised, you know, because you just explained that to me. But I think that, you know, it is it is interesting to me when we are at an at an event and people are coming up for the first time and learning about what we are and what we do at rare. Patient voice and they'll X I'll explain. You know, how they can provide in, you know, their insights and, and their experience. And oftentimes they'll say, well, why would anybody want to hear from me? You know, I'm not an expert. And I'll say, but you but you are, you know, more about the challenges that you, you experience. And quite honestly, as you just said, you know, you, you don't want to wear out the, the welcome or, you know, or burden your family member with that. So when you can do that through research, I think it is another, you know, it it's, it's helpful on so many levels. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now rare patient voice recruits for a wide range of study types. Okay. Anything from television, anything from telephone interviews and focus groups to clinical trial matching and real world evidence studies for a patient or caregiver listening right now who might be interested in sharing their experience. Someone like me, can you explain how they would sign up and what they can expect from the process? Pam Cusick: Of course. So the easiest thing to do if we don't meet you at an event the easiest thing to do is to go to our website, which is rare patient.com. And there you'll find several places where it says sign up here. And so there's a little video that, that you can listen to that talks about the sign up process, but basically you go click that link and it will X you can add in the information. So your name, your address, your medical condition or conditions. Some basic information medical, if you take any, any particular medications and then click that you agree to participate in research and then or be participate, click the, I think it says that you agree to be invited to participate in research because we're not just sending you to a study without your permission. So the next step is our team will go through and make sure all of the the information is, is correct. The, you know, medications are spelled right and so on. And, and that, you know, then it goes into a, basically like a database where when we have a study that is for the conditions that you have, have put in there, we will then you'll get an email from our project management team inviting you to participate in that study. So in the invitation, there will be information such as the type of study, is it an interview or a focus group or a survey. How long is it? Is it in person or is it online? And then of course, you know what the compensation is for participating in that study. Pam Cusick: And people that you don't ever have to participate in a study, you might get an get an invitation and it maybe it's for an interview and it's on a day that just doesn't work for you. Well, you don't have to participate in that. But next time you'll get an invitation and it might be for a two hour focus group, and it's on a day that's convenient and you can go ahead and participate. The, the project managers will connect you with if it's a, if it is a, a focus group, an interview, whoever the researcher is who's doing that work? If it's a survey, the link will be sent to you, right? Right after you qualify for that study. And then once the research is completed, our team will then send over the compensation to you. So we compensate by we pay by check in the US where most of the world doesn't use cheques. But we do that, you know, initially. And then we can also pay through direct deposit into a bank. And in, in Europe we pay by through like a gift card, a visa gift card or something like that. So there are a variety of ways to do that, but it's a very simple sign up process where we're only asking for a little bit of information. And then once there's a study that that you are eligible for, you will get a link to another, the screener that will kind of qualify you for that research and then you can participate. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is so fascinating. Pam Cusick: I'm so glad. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I mean, I've always shied away from you know, trying to contact anyone to try and help me figure out what can be done for me, because I've been told that my my particular story is rare, but listening to you, I don't know what to say. I'm just very, very fascinated by this. All that, you know, in most cases you have you know what I'm talking about here in Canada patients are not listened to most of the time or a lot of the time. And, you know, in my case, I am vision impaired. You go to a doctor, he says, well, you're blind, you're blind, you know, like there's nothing to be done for you. And that's the end of that. And I'm saying, oh my God, I'm here for a reason. On earth, there must be something that can be done. You know, like. Or at least let's look into it. Pam Cusick: Yeah. Right. Well, there, there might be different studies that are available there. They're advocacy groups here in the, here in Baltimore. There's a an advocacy group for the blind. There's a Canadian Council of the blind and. Right. You know, I don't know what kinds of, of support and services that they offer, but, you know, there are so many products and services being worked on all the time. You know, even if it is, maybe it's not a cure, right? Maybe it's, it's a support it, maybe it's a, an accommodation that, that you can help to improve. There are lots of ways that you can participate in research, usability research in particular for you know, for blindness is very, very important. You know, with, with screen readers, you know, being a tool that people use quite often, you know, they don't always work with certain websites and so on. And so those, you know, being able to improve those tools is really important. And there's always research going on. So there may well be a, you know, a place for you to share your voice and your experience and help to, you know, make things better for you and for other people who are blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Definitely. Rare patient voice was recently acquired by. Let me make sure I under. I pronounce this Konoval. Pam Cusick: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Konoval a tech, a technology first health care intelligence company backed by Frazier Healthcare Partners. And this is a major milestone. What does that acquisition mean for the patient and the caregivers who are already part of the rare patient voice community. And how will it expand the company's ability to amplify their voices? Pam Cusick: It is very exciting. I think it's, you know, we are we are very fortunate to be connected with this, with this novo because they offer kind of complementary services to what we offer. So we have a patient community. They have a health care provider community. They also have research tools and programming and data analytics that our clients can use. So what this means for our patients and caregivers is that there will be many more opportunities for them to participate in research and share their voices and be compensated for their time. So I think for, for our community. It's a real win. Because we are able to expand what we can offer and be able to give them more opportunities to share their voice. So I'm very excited about that. I think for, you know, for many years, you know, we've had clients who have come to us looking to do often research is they'll be part with, with healthcare providers and patients. And we could only provide that one part. So some of those projects we might have lost because a client might want to only go to one source to recruit both patients and healthcare providers. But now our patients will have the more opportunities because we can offer a lot more to our clients. And I'm super excited about that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You sure sound excited. I'm sounding I am thinking excitement myself. Pam Cusick: That's good. I love that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And as the clock starts to wind down, I want to ask you this question. As someone who is blind and who has spent my career fighting to remove barriers, I am always interested in understanding how different communities experience systemic obstacles. When rare disease patients participate in your studies and share their stories with their researchers. What kind of barriers do they most often describe, and how does their participation help break those barriers down? Pam Cusick: So that's that's an interesting question. Pam Cusick: There are sometimes we hear from patients about their, their experiences participating where they are, they have difficulty accessing the perhaps a survey online or perhaps a screening screening survey online. And so the what we have the opportunity to do then is to educate our partners and our clients about how they can make things more accessible for our patient community sometimes might be let's say it's a Zoom interview. And at some point, I think it was Zoom, one of those platforms didn't have closed captioning. This was some some years ago. And and that was a real barrier for people who needed to, you know, who could maybe hear, hear well and needed to see the captions so they could answer the questions. So there, those types of barriers there. What I can say is, so from our end, we are not we're not doing the research, we're not creating the research tools. But when we hear from patients, we do like to go back to our clients and share with them what those barriers were so that in future studies, they can avoid those, those pitfalls. And I think that that's an ongoing conversation in the research industry. How do we make accommodations for people so that everyone gets to participate? A great example is you know, there are, there are a lot of medical conditions that are just exhausting to, you know, just to, to answer ten questions. So tiring. Right? And, you know, and because you have to concentrate, I know from my son has hearing loss and processing and, and kind of hearing something and then having to process it and then spitting out an answer. It takes extra time. And so, you know, there are things that as a research industry, we can recommend, for example, you know, some surveys have what they call a time out. Like if it takes too long to answer something, they kick you out of the survey. Well, if we're. Pam Cusick: Working with. Pam Cusick: Somebody who might need extra time, let's not do that kind of a thing. Or if, if you want somebody with, you know, vision loss to complete a survey, let's make sure that the screen reader works and things like that. So those are some barriers that we have heard about. The other thing that I would say is, you know, for people with, with certain medical conditions traveling to a site, so an on site, whether it's a clinical trial or to a facility where they need to, you know, go to do an in-person interview, for example, could be incredibly difficult. Yes. You know, navigating from your home, you know, on public transportation or in a car or whatever it is, you know, to a particular space to then have to navigate into that space, spend time there and then come home is, is a little bit too much for people. And so what, what might happen is that you are excluding a part of your, your consumer or your, your patient population because you haven't made the research accessible to them. So that's another thing as an industry, we're trying to work on, you know, balancing that, you know, yes, maybe you want to do some of that research in person, but can we offer people the opportunity to do it remotely, you know, if it suits them better, because we want to make sure that we are including all voices, not just the ones who can can get there. So hopefully I answered your question. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You did. And as the clock comes telling me that it's coming up on time. I have any final thoughts from you before we go offline? Pam Cusick: You know, I, I think I would say that everybody has the opportunity to share their voice. We might not always know how to do it, but it's so valuable to participate in research. It's so important to making products and services better. And I think the, the more we can spread the word that, you know, we want to hear from patients, we want to hear their lived experience, the better the world is going to be for the patients coming after them. So I would just encourage people to consider participating in research because it will not only help, again, develop better products and services, but also it will probably be a good thing for you sharing your experience. So that that's my final book. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So for Aaron, who helps me with my podcast, we're going to end the recording here because I'd like to talk to Pam about my own story, but I want to thank you for this interview, and we'll end the recording here. And if you don't mind. Oh, that's my timer. You don't mind? I'd like to share something with you. Pam Cusick: Sure. Of course. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, Pam, I was born eight hours after my twin brother, but my mom and dad did not know that another one was on its way. So when they were told that another one, another baby, was coming, they were taken aback. And finally, as soon as I was born, mom took one look at my at me and she said, something's wrong with this child's eyes. She is vision impaired or whatever, she said. And she was right. Now the thing is, and I'll try to shorten this the story as much as I can. I was born with very little vision, and Mom and dad tried to get me the best opportunity to try and improve that vision. But it did not come until I was a teenager and I had my first cornea transplant. What is most unique about this transplant is that when I realized that I had obtained new vision, wonderful vision, vision that was beyond my belief, I entered into a world where I had difficulty containing myself because I was able to read and write without having seen before. I was able to identify a car, a bus, colors, colors most of all. But what will always resonate with me was one morning when my mom was putting the eye drops into my eye. I looked up and I saw her face and I realized, hey, wait a second, this is mom. And then there was dad standing next to her, and I looked at him and I said, wait a second here. I'm looking at faces. Pam Cusick: Wow. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. And then I didn't say anything to them, but I rushed to the washroom and looked in the mirror and I thought, oh shoot. I looked just like mom. Right. And I didn't say a word. I started to cry to myself. They never knew anything about this. And this is how it continued. For several years, my whole world was turned into a different direction and. But then I lost it all in 2004 to a really bad retina detachment. But I'm sitting here saying, with all the research and all the development, there has been in in trying to restore sight to people and everything like that. Where can I go and who can I talk to with regard to any possibility of a product, a gadget, or something that I can use or could be implanted in into my brain so that I would have some restoration of vision? Is there anything that you can part with to tell me where can I go? What can I do? Who can I talk to? Pam Cusick: Gosh. Oh, I can, I will try to find out for you off the top of my head, I'm just scrolling through this document that I have here that, that shows me whenever we've had a request for a blind study that focused on blindness, because it might, it might help me figure out a, a client who would be looking for this. A lot of our clients are not the actual research. Sorry, not the actual pharmaceutical company. Sometimes they are, but a lot of times they are. They are research companies doing work on behalf of those companies. But I'm sure I can find, you know, some, some information about how, who is working in this area. I would think that some of the I don't know if you're connected to that one group that I had mentioned in Canada, but there are other organizations. Hold on, let me go back up one. There are other organizations that at least here in the US that maybe you could tap into and, and find out from their websites. Have you, have you connected with the Canadian Council for the blind? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am very familiar with them, but I don't think that they would be able to help me because I think the research, the research person or whoever I'm looking for is someone who has been involved in site restoration or, you know, artificial. I don't know how to put it, but any. And I know that research has been done into, you know, into site restoration, into implants that can help. I mean, I've, I've read about it in, in, you know, taking place in Japan or Europe and even in the States. Where can I go at least give myself one more chance? At least share the story. At least help others who probably are in a similar situation than to me. Pam Cusick: Yeah. I mean, there has to be a somebody, somebody always working on something. So let's see, I'm one technology company here. I have one more here. I can look at P three technology. Let me see this dot I oh. Break down barriers. So this is another another organization that, that works with people who have a variety of disabilities, but they have done some research on blindness. Let me do this. Let me do a little bit of, of research in our database to figure out, you know, if I can narrow it down to a company that might be working on something specifically related to what you're talking about. So restoring vision or some sort of a tool or device or something like that. And I will email you back with that information. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Much appreciated. I'd be really grateful. Pam Cusick: I would be happy to do that. Donna. Pam Cusick: Okay. Pam Cusick: I think it sounds to me so one thing I will say you are welcome if you are interested to join our patient community. And if, if you are interested, so, so one, you could do that as an individual and join our community and you know, participate in research, which is great. And I think, you know, that that would be a great opportunity for you. You can also work with us as a referral partner if you are interested in sharing, like so that other people join rare patient voice. But what I'm thinking of is we have that weekly warrior on that I was mentioning on our, the shared on Facebook and Instagram and maybe even TikTok. I don't know about that one. But, but where you would have the opportunity to share your story, you know, where you, you grew up with limited sight, got your sight back, lost your sight again. Yeah. You know, to share with others and to hear your story, and that you've been successful, that you have a law degree and have, you know, worked on all of these cases. It's people often feel very disenfranchised when they have a particular disability or, or medical condition and hearing that someone else has, you know, found a way to be successful is often very motivating. So you don't have to say yes now, but it might say yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. I think it's important for people to remain motivated and positive. Like don't think because of what has happened, there is no hope or oh my gosh, you know, I don't know what to do. I would love, love, love to share my story. Pam Cusick: So I think the I, I think you in order to do that, you either have to be a member of the rare patient voice community. I don't think you have to be a referral partner, but I think you have to have signed up with us. I can ask our team, though, and figure out what what the process is, but I will. I think I have your email, don't I directly in this email? Yeah, so I will. Is it the outlook one or the gmail one or the Sterling Creations one? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The sterling creations one. Pam Cusick: Okay, so what I'm going to do is have one of my people from our patient advocacy team reach out to you and maybe they can help you. Because I just wish I knew the answer. I think it's that you have to be in our patient community in order to be one of our weekly warriors. And all you would need to do with that is to sign up online. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, terrific. Pam Cusick: I will have someone contact you about that. So that's our patient advocacy team. And then separately, I'm going to do a little bit of research on my own to see if I can find anyone doing that kind of research, and I will get back to you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I appreciate it, and I am so excited about this particular podcast interview because I learned a lot. I learned a lot. Pam Cusick: That's fantastic. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, no, I've learned a lot and it's a very different type of interview. So thank you very, very much for agreeing to be my guest. And I look forward to working with you in some way, shape or form. Pam Cusick: That would be fantastic. Thank you so much, Donna. It was a great opportunity and I look forward to chatting with you again soon. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Thank you Pam, thank you very much. Pam Cusick: Take care. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Take care now. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #85: Interview with Kim Charlson, Global Inclusion And Accessibility Advocate For The Disability Community https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-04-16-2026/ In this wide-ranging episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Kim Charlson, Director of the Perkins Braille and Talking Book Library, to trace Kim's 41-year journey at Perkins, from losing her vision at age 11, to becoming one of the first totally blind people in the United States to earn a master's degree in library science, to leading one of the country's most innovative accessible library programs for the past 24 years. Kim describes how the library has grown far beyond lending books, now offering downloadable audiobooks, loanable Braille e-readers, an audio-described film collection, a professional recording studio, and an assistive-technology "library of things", a program that helped drive over 900,000 items shipped in the past year alone. She also reflects on mentoring blind professionals into library leadership, noting that five blind directors now lead libraries across the U.S., a barrier she has helped dismantle by example. The conversation then widens from libraries into the broader systemic accessibility work Kim has championed, including the Marrakesh Treaty, the Internet Archive digital scanning collaboration with the Boston Public Library, accessible prescription labels, accessible voting machines, and a decades-long push for tactile U.S. currency that has finally produced talking currency readers and a forthcoming $20 bill with a tactile edge feature. Kim closes by looking ahead to the technologies she believes will most reshape blind independence next, from Meta glasses that can read the world aloud, to autonomous vehicles arriving at the front door, framing accessibility not as a finish line, but as an ongoing, everyday practice worth advocating for at every level. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. It is my pleasure. It is my privilege and my honor to welcome Kim Charlson to our show today. Welcome, Kim. Kim Charlson: Thank you so much, Donna. I'm really honored to be here and to be one of your special guests. I've listened to your podcast quite often and you have some really incredible folks working on all aspects of advocacy, and I'm honored to be considered in that group. So thank you again. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you again. So let's start at the beginning. What first drew you toward libraries, Braille and accessible information work, and how did your early life experiences shape the path that you eventually built? Kim Charlson: So that's a big question and I'll try to do it quickly. I'll take your time. So I was born sighted. I lost my vision when I was around 11 years old due to complications of glaucoma. Oh, okay. Most of I had some usable vision for a little bit, but pretty much lost all of it and became totally blind in my 20s, so my parents got my diagnosis early. They were thoughtful. My ophthalmologist was thoughtful and said to them, you need to get her to an educational program where she can learn Braille. She can learn the skills to become a blind person and an adult who will be able to work and do whatever she wants to do in her life. And so my parents went to find a school for the blind that they were comfortable with on the west coast of the United States, where I grew up in Oregon. Right. And I went to the Oregon School for the blind for five years between like fourth grade and ninth grade. And learn Braille, learned cane travel, learned adaptive things. Then in 10th grade, I went to public school at my local community high school and was able to engage and participate and then on to college. So that in when I was growing up, I had the luxury of living in the same town where our Braille and talking book library was located for the state of Oregon, so I would. Kim Charlson: And it was only a few blocks away from the school for the blind, which was nice. And I would go there a lot and spend a lot of time in the stacks, just browsing Braille books and looking at those Braille books and picking them. And, you know, I had a dream that I was going to read every book in the library, which a lot of kids think they could do. And not, not very easy to do that because one thing libraries do is they keep growing. So there's more and more and more and more so. Right. But you know, I always loved books. So in high school, college, I also was bitten with the advocacy bug and which I consider a great illness to have. Advocacy is so important in the work we do. And it became one of my passions to, to work on, you know, disability justice, social justice, make sure that things were equitable to our society and make sure that those kinds of things could be available and accessible to us. So I I had plans to become an attorney, but when I got to my senior year in college, I sort of got that itis that many seniors get where they just kind of go, oh my God, I don't think I can go back to college for three more years to become an attorney. Kim Charlson: So I said, I'm going to get a job and think about what I want to do when I grow up. I applied for two jobs. One was in a real estate office. The second one was at the Braille and Talking Book library, and I got hired at the Braille and Talking Book Library to train Braille transcribers and and volunteer narrators to record books. And that's how I started my career in library and information science. And so I really became an advocate there for access to information, how we could make information more accessible for people. And that after working in that role for a few years, I said, you know, I'd really like to become a manager in Braille and talking book library somewhere in the United States. And but I won't be able to do that unless I get an advanced degree in library science. So one day I came back to my desk and there was this application package for students with disabilities who want to enter into the career of library science. And I thought, well, you can't get more targeted than me, and that's what I want to do. So I applied for the fellowship and I won. Well, I didn't know was to accept the fellowship. I had to go to the University of North Texas in Denton, Texas. Kim Charlson: So I left my job. I took a leave of absence from the library. I went to Texas. I left my husband at home dodging bill collectors and trying to, you know, keep, keep the, the house and home safe. And I went and got my degree in library science, my master's degree in library science. And I was one of the first totally blind people in the United States to get a degree in library science because prior to the the late 1980s, when I went to grad school, libraries were not very friendly places for blind people. Everything was paper print books, card catalogues. But in the 1980s, we started to automate libraries. We started to get rid of card catalogs and have online catalogs instead, and processes became much more accessible so that I could do cataloging, which isn't my favorite thing. But librarians need to know how to catalog. So I would, I would much rather be a manager and build programs and services, but there was an article written about me being sort of a pioneer into a field that had not been very blind friendly prior to the advent of automation in libraries and the Perkins School for the blind. Read the article and they had a position for a an assistant director of library services, and they asked me to apply for the job, and I did, and I got the job and I worked and I moved to Massachusetts. Kim Charlson: Oh my gosh. And my husband came along and and we love Massachusetts. I'm so happy here. I have I am in my 41st year of working for Perkins, so. Oh my Lord, I have been here a long time. I have been the director of our library here for 24 years and have grown the library to be more than just a national library service for the Blind and disabled State Library. We, we love the NLS program and the Library of Congress. And that's the basis for everything we do. But I also believe that there are other services that people should have available to them. And we've grown those other services as well. So as an example, we have a fairly extensive audio described movie collection about 2000 titles on DVD that can be loaned out to our borrowers. We have a recording studio where we record local interest titles that are not provided by the Library of Congress. We have a Braille production department where we do fee for service, work for the community, and also add books to our collection and produce documents for other departments at Perkins that don't have Braille production capability within their staff. We loan technology. We have a couple new programs now that are library of things. Which library of things are. Kim Charlson: Items you can loan that would be useful and people don't know if they want to buy it until they check it out. So public libraries in the US have libraries of things. So they might be musical instruments or a sander. If you wanted to sand your deck or a drill because you have a maintenance project, but you don't want to go out to Home Depot and buy a sander or a drill for one project. You can borrow it from your local public library here. So we have an assistive technology library of things where we loan out relatively inexpensive devices that people may not have been able to check out or haven't had a chance to put their hands on it. And one of my favorite popular things in our collection is a talking am FM radio. Borrowers tend to love it and it speaks all the frequencies like, you know, 106.9, 106.8. So if you're looking for a number on the FM or AM dial, you can find it, you can tune it in yourself. And all the buttons are labeled and all the functions. So you can switch from am FM and we have talking blood pressure cuff, some of the medical type accessible devices people want to try before they think of getting one for their for themselves because things range from under $10 to about $150, might be the most expensive thing in our library of things. Kim Charlson: And then we have a demo center, which has the more expensive devices that people want to touch and look at. You have to make an appointment and come and see us for the expensive devices. We don't loan those out because something like a walk cane, that is, you know, the new cane that has GPS inside and a speaker. Yeah, that's about an $800 cane. We're not going to loan that out to somebody. No, but they can come. So just, you know, being able to build those kinds of opportunities and give people access to things is really, really important to me. And, and kind of being a visionary and growing our library is something that I find very satisfying. And our patrons are happy. They love the kinds of programs we have available. And that's really what it was all about. I do you know, I'm a I'm a library director by day and my avocation, as I say, is advocacy and system change, because I really, really like to work toward system change and fixing the bigger problem. I'll work with one on one to help somebody get through a problem. But it's fixing the problem for everybody that really jazzes me. I like to make that kind of system change. That is so important in our advocacy work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is really impressive. And you know, when I look at your career, one of the most remarkable things is your long service at Perkins. What do you remember most about joining the Perkins Library program in the mid 1980s. And what convinced you that this was where you could make a lasting difference? Kim Charlson: Well, I knew I wanted to have the opportunity to be in management in a library for the blind in the United States. And at the time I made that career choice, there were no people who were blind that were working in the network, leading the there libraries. There was no managers or directors. There were staff, certainly, who were blind, but there were no managers. So I'm happy to say today there are five blind people who are directors of libraries within the United States. And I'm really, really proud just to to know that, you know, that barrier has come down, that blind people can do this job and have shown they can do this job because of technology and because of, you know, the opportunities that are out there and the possibilities. So I've also made it a point in my career to try to mentor and bring other qualified blind individuals and people with disabilities into library work. So I have seven staff. That of my total staff is 29 individuals seven of whom are blind or have low vision, including my deputy director. He is low vision and supervises, you know, a good portion of our team as well. So I have a Braille transcriber, I have an assistive tech manager, I have an outreach person. I have people that work in my duplication and shipping department all throughout the organization. I have qualified individuals who are blind working for me. And I always tell them that I have very high expectations. So they better not disappoint me because if I if I identified you as somebody that I think I would like to work for our library. I don't want you to disappoint me. So. Right. You know, I work just as hard as I expect any of them to work as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Kim Charlson: Yeah. But it's been it's been really satisfying. I never, ever expected you know, I thought, oh, maybe I'll work here 10 or 15 years and then I'll move on. Right. But I decided, you know, I've had opportunities to move on. And I said, you know, I just feel like I'm in such a good place because I can shape the program. If I want to start a pilot program doing something, I can start a pilot program doing something. I don't have three layers of administration over my head. I just have the the CEO of Perkins to report to and tell him about, you know, whatever I'm thinking of doing. And as long as I have, the budget could cover the expenses for doing what I'm thinking, I want to do the. The directors of Perkins have always been supportive of the things that I come up with to try. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So that is great. I mean, it sounds like the ideal job, right? Like the perfect job. Kim Charlson: Well, exactly. Which is exactly why I've been here 41 years, because I can, you know, I can make my path. I can I don't have to get that approval from all kinds of different levels of administration. I can start a pilot program, I can test equipment and do all that. And it just is so much more satisfying than fighting an administrative bureaucracy that I might have had to do if I had gone with other opportunities that had come my way. So I'm really happy and satisfied with what I do and the impact that I know I've been able to make. On information access for the borrowers here at the Perkins Braille and Talking Book Library. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you have led the Perkins Braille and Talking Book library for many years. From my perspective, as someone who is also blind, accessible reading can be life changing. I know all about that. How do you describe the true mission of that library beyond simply lending books? Kim Charlson: It's a wonderful question. I have the pleasure so many times in a given week of talking to patrons who are calling our library and, you know, want to get some more books. And they will often say, my books are my lifeline. Yes. And I hear that so often, and I understand it completely, that getting their talking books just means so much. People will often say, you know, I don't sleep well at night. So my, my books are my friends and they keep me company. And I just want to be sure I have lots of books to read all the time. So, you know, having services where we can download books as well as get them through the mail. Not everybody is going to have the technological skills to download their own books. And they rely on us to send them talking books through the mail and we do that, but it's, it is satisfying to be able to talk to people every day who think the service you provide is so amazing and so wonderful, and they're just so pleased. And tell us just, you know, your angels, you help us. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's so good. Kim Charlson: You know, I can't get much more positive kudos from, you know, it's just great to hear the appreciation that people have and knowing that I'm it. I value the fact that what I want to do, especially with my outreach programs, the staff I have who do outreach, go out into the community to tell potential people who could be eligible for our services about the program. One of the things I hear from new applicants is I thought my days of reading were over, and I am so happy now to know that I don't have to give up reading. They often reference that to the newspaper and having to give up the newspaper. And, you know, we have a program through our library and and throughout the whole United States where we have Newsline, which is a service that is has been developed by the National Federation of the blind and under contract. I pay for that service for Massachusetts. And we've got over 4000 people that use it every day to listen to our local papers, listen to The New York Times. There's international papers. The Toronto Paper is available to us. Just so many different resources. And people will just so often say that they thought they wouldn't ever be able to read again, and that the program means so much to them because they can read a best seller and talk about it with their family, or they can read a nonfiction book, read a cookbook, and all those different things that just make so much difference to us. Those who know firsthand because of blindness or low vision, how important it is to have accessible information available to us. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you are these services just available to the state of Massachusetts, the, you know, In across the United States. Is it available to Canadians? Kim Charlson: It is not available because all of our funding is tied to the fact that the individual needs to be a citizen or they need to be a resident in, in my case, a resident of Massachusetts. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Kim Charlson: So one of the advocacy things I worked on with a lot of other people all over the globe was the Marrakesh Treaty for the blind and visually impaired and disabled. And that is the closest way to get access to a lot of the audio and Braille materials that are available through the Library of Congress program, because they do contribute pretty heavily English language titles, Spanish language titles. Those are the two primary languages we produce in the US. And those go into the global book service that Canada has access to and can get those. So it isn't it isn't a direct service, but at least some of the materials that we are producing in the US can be made available through through Sila or other localized libraries throughout Canada that blind and low vision people utilize for their reading materials. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Over the decades, you have seen accessible library services evolve from more traditional formats into a much broader digital landscape. What changes have been the most transformative for blind, low vision and deaf blind readers during your career? Kim Charlson: So when I started my career back in Oregon, nothing was digital, So I was actually training people to learn how to transcribe Braille with Braille writer. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Kim Charlson: And I was teaching individuals to narrate talking books with a tape recorder, sometimes in their kitchen. And we all have had that experience of getting something recorded in college or yes, a newsletter that sounds like, you know, the dogs are barking in the background and the airplanes are flying by and the lawnmower next door. And yes, oh my gosh, it was, it was painful sometimes what the end product might be because people were just recording things in their house. And when I had the opportunity to, to set up and establish my first recording studio that actually had a digital sound booth and, you know, special computerized recording equipment, I was so happy because the quality just took such a leap that it sounded so much better. And, you know, I wanted to have high quality recordings. I didn't want dogs barking and lawnmowers and things like that anymore. And so that was, that was a huge step. And then when we actually went from analog recordings to digital recordings, that was even better because then besides making it easier to correct the titles and fix them and really have high quality professionally narrated recordings from our studio, we were also able to then easily share those digital files and make them available on a download service, where individuals who are blind could actually download any pretty much anything they wanted from the library when they wanted it, instead of having to wait for the mail to deliver it a week later after you ask for it. So when you know audio was the first to be available for download, which was a huge, huge step. Then digital, you know, digital Braille came along with our program here in the US called Web Braille. That was kind of the precursor to Bookshare, which is, you know, text to speech books or Braille files that you can get from Bookshare. Kim Charlson: And now there's a lot of international versions of Bookshare. And, you know, in England, in India, you know, many, many countries have an international access to Bookshare. And the Bookshare collection is huge. It's like 1.5 million titles available in text to speech or BRF files for reading on a on a Braille display. So the change in Braille technology has also been a really significant factor in just making more Braille available. Not necessarily having to put it on paper and then mail it. And sharing is so much easier for digital Braille. We can do that internationally now through Marrakesh, and people can store hundreds of files on their Braille devices. Yeah. And, and our library now loans eReader, Braille devices to our, our borrowers who are Braille readers and can either download them or we can send them. The format we use in the US is called the digital cartridge. And we can put audiobooks on that for the audio player. We can put Braille books on it that you connect to the Braille e-reader, and they're automatically copied off the cartridge into the bookshelf of your e-reader device. So it was a real high point in my career when we started to loan Braille devices to people. They are not note takers. They are e-readers. They're designed to be a book reading device, not to, you know, go on the web and do your email and store all your files and write your documents. That's a Braille note taker that has to be purchased. Those are different that the e-reader is very much a reading device, like a Kindle for sighted people. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Don't think I know too much about an e-reader, but I should probably try and check it out. Kim Charlson: Yeah, I would hope maybe something like that is going to be available in Canada. It is for our patrons now, which is really good in the United States. We're really, really happy about that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because I use a Victor stream to read all my books. Kim Charlson: Oh, I love my Victor stream. I do too. Very happy stream user. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah! Yeah. Kim Charlson: And I love to download things into it. As often as I can. I wish I had more hours in my day so I could read more books. Yeah. Because you know, I'm a librarian, so books are like my world, but. Right. You know, with all these wonderful podcasts like yours, there's so many hours in the day to read the books. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know, I know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know your work has helped make accessible reading available at a real scale. When you think about the thousands of patrons and the enormous circulations connected to Perkins, what stories or moments best remind you why this work matters? Kim Charlson: And I so often remember and try to keep myself grounded in the fact that it matters. Every book that goes out every day, whether it's an audiobook or a Braille book, absolutely matters for the person that's waiting for it, right? So we, we do send out a lot of materials, over 900,000 items shipped out from the Perkins Library last year. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Kim Charlson: The highest ever that we have circulated. And that includes our our equipment as well as the books and magazines themselves. So our circulation is higher certainly with audiobooks. And then Braille is is less, but still pretty significant. We have a couple thousand Braille readers and then our library has been providing Braille services to other states since like the, the late 1880s, because Perkins was one was the first school for the blind in the United States. The library started in about 1870, so I have historical records from librarians of many years ago in handwriting saying, you know, they sent such and such a book to this person and such and such a book to that person. Oh, they're reading records and little books. Little journals. And I even came across a picture that is now in my library's conference room of a photograph from around 1880. That is a horse drawn cart that has a stack of Braille. Well, they probably weren't even Braille books in 1880, maybe just beginning. But the first reading method we had in in Massachusetts was called Boston Line Type, which was a raised print letter book. And those books were about two feet high and about, you know, 14in wide and about six inches thick. Kim Charlson: They were heavy. They had raised print lettering on one side of the page. They had to be produced on a printing press like Franklin's printing press. And the you know, I, Helen Keller used Boston line type. I can barely read the lowercase numbers. When I touch those books. I can read the uppercase, but the lowercase is so small, I don't know how people read it, but people say to me all the time, well, I don't know how you read Braille. And I said, isn't that hard? So I suppose if I had only Boston line type to read, I would have learned how to read it. But I find it really challenging. But I have a volume of Boston line type here in my library. We have a lot of them in our archives, so they're protected and safe in an environmentally sound place. But one came in our mail one day. Someone sent it back and it was in pretty good condition. And it was published in 1871. And it was a copy of hamlet. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My lord. Kim Charlson: I said, this book is going to be mine, and it is going to stay here in the library, and it's going to be on a display rack. So when people come, I can show them an actual example that they can touch. And so it's my, my example of one of the first, you know, early Braille, early tactile reading books that was available anywhere because it was patterned after the books that were being used in France and England at the time, which was line type as well. So that, you know, to take a look at that Boston line type book and then to think about the evolution of where all of our formats have come from, from the record to the cassette to our digital books that we use now No to ebooks and the availability of a Braille e-reader and a Victor stream or the audio players that we have available. The. The transition and the development of what we have available is pretty mind boggling, really, that we've got the assets and the resources that we have and the formats available to us now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think just listening to this boggles my mind. I mean, I never really thought much about it until, you know, fairly recently, so. Wow. I'm especially interested in innovation that solves everyday barriers. Could you talk about the Digital access Project and what it meant to create a system where people could get accessible versions of books? More, more, much more quickly than before. Kim Charlson: So about 15 years ago, I had the opportunity to learn a little bit more about the Internet Archive, which is an organization that kind of preserves digital content to make sure that it doesn't get wiped away, that it doesn't disappear, that it's always there and there's some protection for that. And one of the things that the Internet Archive can do is legally, they can do this. They did get challenged in the past in the courts for putting digital books on the Internet Archive that were under copyright. But they have the ability to put a digital book of any type on the internet archive if it is protected. A daisy format protected and becomes a daisy book. So the Internet Archive is doing that and people can access through the, the Internet Archive website, they have to register and certify, but I think that it is internationally accessible. If someone gets registered, sort of like you have to do to get library services. And the Boston Public Library is a scanning site for the Internet Archive, and they actually have like a half a dozen people who work in the Boston Public Library scanning books all day. And they have they don't have scanners like we used to have on our desk, where we would scan our print materials. We have like enormous scanners that you can flatten the book on the camera comes down on the pages and takes an image of the page. Kim Charlson: Then the person sees on a foot pedal. The camera comes up. They flip the page because flipping the page is the one manual part they still need somebody to do, right? And then the they flip the page, the camera comes back down, takes the picture, lifts up, they flip the page so they can scan a book, you know, like a 400 page book and maybe two hours. And they are very accurate. These scanners are big. They're high end scanners. They're very accurate. And I met with the people at the Internet Archive in downtown Boston. And I said, you know, I would like to start a collaboration where we could help people who need to get access to a book that isn't available in an accessible format Anywhere. There are researchers. I ended up having some very active borrowers using that scanning service that was, were professors and they were teaching in college settings around Massachusetts and other places because it was one of the first scanning projects. So people heard about it. They would reach out to me and say, could I get this book scanned? If I send it to you? And I would say yes, because I don't say no to questions like that, no matter where they live, you know? Yeah. And so we would scan them and then there, then they could use the files especially well on a Victor stream. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because. Kim Charlson: There isn't sophisticated, a lot of sophisticated markup, but at least there was page markup. So you could skip pages and you could, you know, kind of scan through things and do your best. So that was the best way to access the, the, The text to speech on the Victor stream was how individuals could read those scanned books that previously were not available to them at all. And that really helped a lot of authors, writers, instructors, teachers, professors that I work with to get access to material that they had just never had access to before. Bookshare has stepped in and done a lot of now making more and more books available digitally. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Kim Charlson: I don't have as much call for the digital archive project in the Boston Public Library as I once did, but it sort of set the stage and was kind of, you know, borne out of the concepts around Bookshare and what we could do if we collaborated together with some of the technologies that were available at the time. So now we've got Bookshare. And just many, many different aspects. I mean, there's even mainstream aspects where we can get our books that we didn't have access to before. Things like Kindle books. There's an app there's that can read those. So there's just so many more options for people if they have the ability to utilize the technologies that are out there, whether it's, you know, iOS, iPhones or Android phones, smartphones can do so many things and get us access to so many more things than we had even 15, 20 years ago. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Kim Charlson: And it's just it is mind boggling and technology. You know, I, I want to just say briefly some of the, there's a couple other things in sort of this systemic change, digital areas that I've worked in and done advocacy in that I think are game changers as well. One of them is access to accessible prescription labels for medication. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes. Kim Charlson: And being able to get a mail order pharmacy to produce a Braille or a large print or an audio label that you can scan with an app or read yourself. There's been a lot of work over the last 10 or 15 years in the US, and I think it's crept into Canada as well. I hope so that some of the pharmacies have it available where people can get accessible prescription labels through script talk. Cvs pharmacy in the US has an app that has a RFID chip that on a sticker on the bottom of a bottle that can be scanned by the app, and it will tell you all sorts of information about your prescriptions. So I think, you know, access to that kind of information enables people to be more independent, manage their own health care, their medical needs, their prescriptions. Reduces accidental, you know, mixing up your bottles using the rubber band or two rubber band. Right, right kind of thing. And then having to remember, you know, which bottle and you just grab one and you took two of the wrong pill or something. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've done that. I have stories. Kim Charlson: Where, where a young mother had twins and she also was caring for her father. And she inadvertently, her father put his meds right next to the kids med. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Kim Charlson: She accidentally gave her child the father's meds, so it was a frightening experience. Oh, child was okay. There was some sickness because of the medication wasn't what a child should be taking. She felt so guilty about what happened to her. And I said, you know, we need to to make sure you get connected with a program that will give you accessibility so you don't have to worry about this ever happening for you again. Kim Charlson: So another area where I've done accessibility work beyond the library is access to voting. And again, it's an important issue in Canada as well as the US being able to independently cast your ballot, review your ballot, mark it. And in some cases throughout the US actually submit an electronic ballot to the election authorities. We can do that in Massachusetts. There's several other states within the US that can do that, but elections are managed at the state level in the US. And so it's state by state how we have access, but we also have accessible machines in the polling places. So if somebody wants to go in and vote in person, those accessible machines have to be set up on Election day. And if a blind person comes in to use one that it has to be set up. One time I went in in person to vote and they said, well, we didn't think anyone was coming, so we didn't set it up. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh no. Kim Charlson: I said, well, I'm here now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go write it up. Right? Kim Charlson: And they said, well, that'll take a while. I said, I'll wait. I made them set it up. And then I went over and I voted and I turned my ballot and I said, thank you. Next time, set it up in the morning. Because how do you know somebody who's blind isn't going to come in to vote? You need to be ready. So I mean, those are just fundamental things that are so important in our society. And I guess the other thing that I've worked on, and this one does kind of circle back to the library because we distribute the device, but accessible paper money candidate. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is. Kim Charlson: So far ahead of the US. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right. Kim Charlson: Money. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Kim Charlson: Currency. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Kim Charlson: Because you have a tactile symbol on your on your. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right, that's right. Kim Charlson: It's fabulous. It's wonderful. Well, we've had to battle for decades in the US to get any kind of accessibility. And finally, we had to go to court in 2008, we won the lawsuit. And then the government's been saying, we're studying it. We're trying to figure out how to do it. You know, they our government wants to have paper money, so they're worried about printing it and having the stacks of money be level in the vault. And I said, that's not my problem. You know, it's like. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We need we need. Kim Charlson: Access to know what we have. So this when when I was president of the American Council of the blind between 2013 and 2019, one of the first things I did was have a meeting with our Bureau of Engraving and Printing, which prints our money, and I said, what are you doing to make our currency accessible? And they said, well, we have an app and we're doing this. I said, no, I'm talking about tactile. Identification of. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Currency. Right. Kim Charlson: What are you doing? Well, we're trying to figure it out. And I. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Said. Kim Charlson: Well, you know, ACB won the lawsuit back in 2008. So, you know, I want to challenge you that you need to find some kind of way to provide meaningful access to a blind person who has money they need to identify. So beyond an app, because maybe everybody doesn't have a smartphone or have it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right. That's right. Kim Charlson: What else can you do? Well, six months later, they demoed a talking currency reader that you could slide the bill into and it would speak the denomination. It would beep the this the sound for the specific denomination or it will vibrate the denomination. So we do have talking currency readers now in the U.S. to help. But sometime in 2026, we have not received a date yet. The $20 bill redesign is supposed to be coming out, and it has a tactile feature on the edge where you can feel kind of little rectangles along the edge. And I don't even know the how many rectangles equals which thing yet because I haven't seen a bill yet, but we're supposed to have our first bill coming out with a tactile feature, and we distribute the talking currency readers through our library program here now to make those more accessible to people who are in the U.S. to use our currency and identify it. It's been a long battle, but, you know, we're getting there. I'm going to be very, very old when all the bills in. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My. Kim Charlson: Wallet are all tactilely accessible, but it's going to happen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think you've done a lot, and there's so much more that I could ask you, but my clock is winding down. I want to just sneak this question into you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do you dream of that could be any different or make a difference, or anything you could think of that would help in any way. I mean, I can't think of anything else that you could do, but what would you like to see? Kim Charlson: I know, I mean, you know, we often have the philosophical conversation about about, you know, now is the best time to be a blind person because the technologies are just incredible and they're becoming better and better every day with things like meta glasses and. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You know. Kim Charlson: Glide and, and all these different things to help us navigate. I, I'm, I'm still a little skeptical on glide because I'm a longtime guide dog user and I'm pretty darn happy with my guide dog getting around. But. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Kim Charlson: The glide is a pretty cool mobility device. The. We walk cane, a walking cane with GPS. I, I just, you know, it's, it's kind of hard to imagine, but I think, I think the, the latest kind of game changer are the meta glasses and. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What they can. Kim Charlson: Tell you about your world and what they can read to you. We've never had accessibility to signs as we have with meta glasses now because they're very good about reading a sign and giving you information and they're getting better and better all the time at what they can tell us. So the things that I think about are the, the ability to travel more independently. I, I dream of the day when an autonomous vehicle will come to my front door. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Every. Kim Charlson: Morning and take me to work and not have to even barely think twice about it. I mean, Uber was a huge game changer, but I think the autonomous vehicle for our community can be an amazing game changer where people can share a car. You know, we don't all have to own one to be able to use it. We can share it. It can come and go and go help this person, take this person somewhere, come back and get you. Do this and be able to just do that and go where we want, when we want. Is going to be a major thing. Not having to schedule drivers or rides or convince a family member they need to take us somewhere. Yeah, when we can just do it ourselves. That will be an amazing time. And, and the time is now where we have to advocate for that. Because certainly in the US, there's a lot of positive advocacy around autonomous vehicles, but there's also skepticism about it. And there's places where, you know, you have to have a driver's license to have a ride in an autonomous vehicle. Well, why would that be a requirement? That's silly. We're not driving the car. We're sitting in the car. It's going to take us somewhere. So we have to find that. We have to pay attention to the policy development and what's going on, and laws that are being passed in different states about no autonomous vehicles here. Yes, we want them over here because the people are going to eventually determine that autonomous vehicles have a place and they won't displace other kinds of of workers. There's a lot of fear around that. But I just think that that's one of the things on our horizon that will absolutely change our lives so dramatically to have instant access to transportation. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I really enjoyed your this this interview. And I love your attitude and I like your dreams. And I want to thank you for having been my guest for today. And any time you wish, you want to come back and talk more about your dreams, talk more about things you're doing, please do not hesitate to come. Let me know. Kim Charlson: Thank you. Donna, it's really been a pleasure to be a part of of your work and your Remarkable Conversations podcast. And again, I'm really honored to have been asked, and I'll be happy to come back in the future. So thank you for the opportunity. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'll be knocking at your door. Thank you very much, Kim. It has been a pleasure. Bye for now. Kim Charlson: Thank you. Donna. Take care. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You too. Bye bye. Kim Charlson: Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #82: Interview with Bob Branco, Author, Writer and Publisher | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-04-14-2026/ In this wide-ranging episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with longtime advocate, author, and broadcaster Bob Branco for a wide-ranging conversation about growing up blind, building a life of creative independence, and choosing one's relationship with technology on one's own terms. Bob traces his path from a sight-saving class in New Bedford, Massachusetts to eight years at the Perkins School for the Blind, where he picked up the orientation and mobility skills, Braille fluency, and quiet confidence that still anchor his daily life, he notes he has been using the same Perkins Brailler for sixty-one years. He talks about what drove him to write My Home Away from Home and As I See It From a Blind Man's Perspective, the nearly twenty-year run of his Consumer Vision magazine, his columns for Matilda Ziegler and the American Council of the Blind, and the hundreds of episodes he has produced of In Perspective and Sports Roundtable since 2017. The second half of the conversation turns to a quietly radical position: Bob has built a full life, writing, publishing, broadcasting, running a disability bowling league for three decades, hosting weekly phone chats, trivia nights, and music request hours, without ever owning a cell phone. He relies on a landline, a computer, his Brailler, and an Alexa device, and he pushes back gently but firmly on a world that treats constant connectivity, QR codes, self-checkouts, and press-one-for-this automation as progress. Donna and Bob find shared ground around the erosion of human touch in customer service, the enduring importance of Braille, and Bob's parting advice to manage time carefully, recognize when you are overwhelmed, and do things in moderation. The two close by looking ahead to April 20, when Donna will join Bob and his crew on Sports Roundtable to talk hockey. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and a stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate and accessibility consultant and author, Lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty. S Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me teaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you now to think of this show as your shared workbench, where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to change. Bob Branco I am pleased, I am delighted. I am honored to have you on my podcast. Welcome. Bob Branco: Well, it's it's a thank you, Donna. It's a pleasure to be on this program. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good. So, Bob, I don't know when was when was it that we first met? Probably a few years ago. Right. Bob Branco: I believe it was about 2 or 3 years ago. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Bob Branco: I first heard about you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you approached me. I have been on your podcast a few times. Now it's time for me to have you on my podcast. And I've been following you admiring the guests that you've had on your podcast. So let's start at the beginning, Bob. I love to begin at the beginning for listeners who are just getting to know you, how would you describe your early life in New Bedford and the path that has led you to Perkins School for the blind? Bob Branco: I was born and raised in New Bedford, Massachusetts. Bob Branco: At one time in my life I had sight. I was always legally blind. But when I was younger, I was able to see. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: Be that as it may, I spent the first several years of my schooling in a sight saving class. Now, what that means is I was in a room with several other children who had vision problems. There weren't that many of us in the class, so the teacher gave us a lot more attention than she normally would have had we been a normal class size. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: After grade four, it was determined that I should go to Perkins School for the blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Bob Branco: I believe the state insisted that I go because I remember my parents were upset at the time. I don't believe it was my parents who thought of the idea. I think the state came to them and said, there's not much more we can do for Bob in New Bedford, so he needs to go to a private school for the blind and where Perkins is located in Massachusetts. I suppose that was a fair compromise. I would get to go home on weekends and be with my family then, and live at the school and learn what I needed to learn until I graduated from Perkins. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Wow. So as someone who knows how deeply our early experiences shape us, I'd love to ask this question. When you look back on your years at Perkins, what moments most helped to form your confidence, your identity, and your sense of what was possible as a blind person? Bob Branco: I think the best way for me to answer that question is to simply say, as I learned new things and realized that I could do them well, it helped me gain more confidence in myself. Here's a good example. Orientation and mobility. Right? Not only did I learn how to use a cane at Perkins, but I learned how to cross streets. I learned how to tell when the parallel traffic was coming. When the perpendicular traffic was coming at a main street. I learned how to use the audible traffic signals because in Watertown, Massachusetts, there were audible traffic signals that you used to cross the busy streets. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Bob Branco: But but as I continued to learn mobility, I recognized that the techniques I learned really had nothing to do with whether there was an audible signal, because there would not always be an audible traffic signal whenever I crossed the street. Okay. So what I learned was to not cross the street unless the parallel traffic started, because when the parallel. I'm sorry. When the parallel traffic stopped. Advertisement: Yeah. Bob Branco: Or. Okay, I'm trying to think what it was. Anyway, I learned the technique back in the day, so I learned when to cross and when not to cross, even without an audible traffic signal. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Okay. Any experiences that stick out in your mind during that time of your life that you know, were you scared? Were you you said I, I know I can cross the street. Was there any moment that stuck out in your mind during that time? Bob Branco: Not that I can think of at the moment, I'm sure. Like with anything else, some things that we learn were not afraid of. While other things that we learn we can be afraid of to a point. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Are you one of those who gets nervous quickly? Or you say I'm, I'm going to catch this and I'm going to deal with it. Bob Branco: I think it depends on the circumstance. If there are things that I know I can handle, I'm able to pass the test, so to speak, without being nervous about it. There are some things that I learned at school that I was afraid. As a matter of fact, one of them was swimming. I was I was very fearful of being in the water, especially the deep end. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tell us why. Bob Branco: In a sense, I was petrified. Bob Branco: But as I learned more and more about the techniques involved with swimming, I was a little bit more confident in myself, despite my fears. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is it because you didn't have vision or is it because it was you, Bob? The person. Bob Branco: It was me, Bob the person. It had nothing to do with what little vision I had at the time. Bob Branco: I suppose you could get up to maybe perhaps being inexperienced or maybe a fear of the unknown, so to speak. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. So you're saying it was mainly you? Bob Branco: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: Exactly. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. I'm especially interested in the foundations of independence. How important were Braille, adaptive skills and the discipline of learning to do things for yourself in shaping everything that came later in your life and career? Bob Branco: Very, very important. Everything was significant at the time. Obviously, the fact that I knew Braille helped me to be independent when I read. When I read books. Bob Branco: Because back then, Braille was one of the more primary resources for a blind person. Today, there are many other alternatives. Obviously, because of all the adaptive technology that's out there. When I was at Perkins, there wasn't as much adaptive technology as there is today. There were a couple of things, but it wasn't anywhere near what it is now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you think that Braille is still very important in your life, and more so should we still be promoting Braille? Bob Branco: Braille is just as important in my life today as it was back then. And I wish it was just as important for everybody else with a vision impairment. Some people don't use it as much as I do. There might even be some blind people who don't use it at all. And as I said, you've got all this adaptive technology now, speech devices and talking devices and all the other things that Braille may not be as necessary for some people as it is for others. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're saying it is still very necessary for you? Bob Branco: I'd like to think so, yes, I depend on it as much today as I did back then. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Give us some examples of how you use Braille. Bob Branco: I use Braille to take notes for myself to help me remember things. Or if I happen to correspond with somebody who's blind, I would like to write them a Braille letter, particularly if they don't have email, because I do a lot of emailing as it is. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Bob Branco: But if I wanted to write a letter or mail a letter out to somebody, I have no problem writing it in Braille because that's what I'm used to doing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: In fact, I learned Braille before I went to Perkins. I learned Braille in second grade during my time at the sight saving class. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Okay. Bob Branco: I already knew Braille when I arrived at Perkins. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, so what are the mechanisms you use for when when you interact with Braille, do you use a Perkins Brailler? Do you use a pocket slate? What do you use? Bob Branco: I learned the Perkins Brailler and I also learned the slate stylus. I found that the slate and stylus were very, very tricky for me because you had to do things backwards. Right, right. Those of you who know the slate and stylus might know what I'm talking about when I say that. Bob Branco: So I gradually stopped using the slate and stylus. If I had to use it today, I could. But I find that a lot slower and a little more inconvenient. So yes, I use the Perkins Brailler. Even today I've been using the Perkins Brailler now for 61 years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. And you, you know, you use Braille a lot. Give us some examples as to other examples as to how you use Braille in addition to writing and stuff like that. Do you have a Braille display? Bob Branco: I do not use a Braille display. Okay. I've heard about them. I know people who use them. I might have used them a few times myself just to try them out. But the Braille displays are not items that I really gotten myself attached to. Not really. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you still read books in Braille? Bob Branco: Yes I do. And a lot of bills and sports schedules and things that I ask for, even things that I don't ask for. I get in the mail and they're in Braille. There are accessible features where blind people can access their phone bills their baseball schedules, their basketball schedules. There are organizations that provide that material in accessible format for blind people who are interested in getting them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What about Braille crossword puzzles? Do you know? Do you know anything about that, or do you use them? Bob Branco: I think I used Braille crossword puzzles maybe way back in the day. I seem to recall doing it once or twice. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Bob Branco: I have used a Braille Scrabble game. I played Braille Scrabble on several occasions. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: Braille bingo. Bob Branco: I have a checkerboard that blind people use. It's not necessarily in Braille, but it's designed for blind people and has the necessary features for a blind person to navigate checkers. So I use that a lot, too. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you still play checkers? Stuff like that. Bob Branco: I do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Dominoes. Bob Branco: I have played dominoes occasionally. Yes, I don't play them today, but I have played them in the past. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. All right. So you later wrote a book called My Home Away from Home about your time at Perkins? Bob Branco: That's correct. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What moved you to tell that story, and what did you most want blind and sighted readers to understand about growing up, learning, and finding your place in the world? Bob Branco: What drove me to write the book about Perkins was the fact that I loved talking to people about my time at Perkins. I love sharing memories of my time at Perkins. So one day I said, you know what? Maybe I should put all of this down on paper. So I did. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. And how long were you at Perkins? Bob Branco: I was at Perkins for eight years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: And in answer to your second question. I was hoping that my story would somehow relate well to other blind people who may or may not have had my experiences. Bob Branco: Maybe it was a form of education in a way, to teach them how I could handle a school for the blind, in case some of the blind people who read my book or knew about my book would not necessarily know what it's like. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You still think that Perkins is an important part for anyone who has the opportunity to go there? Bob Branco: Perkins has changed, Donna. It's not the same school as it was when I left. It has evolved into a different kind of an environment. It now services Multi-handicapped kids. Many people with the desire to go to college. Now, who are blind are now being mainstreamed in public schools thanks to legislation that allowed that to happen back in the day. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it has undergone a lot of changes since you were there. Bob Branco: Yes it has. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So your writing has such an honest and direct quality to it. What did you when did you first realize that your personal experiences with blindness could become a form of public education and advocacy? Bob Branco: That's hard to say, because I'd like to think that I've been an advocate for a long, long time. I was advocating for the rights of persons with disabilities when I was in college back in the early 80s. Bob Branco: So I think I was an advocate for at least 40 years. However, there was a time when I decided to write just to share my experiences with the public. Now there's another book that I wrote in relation to what you're talking about called as I See It From A Blind Man's Perspective. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Bob Branco: Which was a book about how I perceive blindness and what it meant to me personally. Bob Branco: But in the book, there was some education about blindness in general and about how it's dealt with by most of us, not just about me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So do you think that advocacy is a combination of writing and speaking and doing other things, or is it just mainly one aspect? Bob Branco: Oh, I think you're right. I think advocacy involves communication. Bob Branco: Networking, sticking up for oneself or sticking up for, you know, colleagues or fellow blind people or, or whoever you're advocating for. I think it's a combination of a lot of things. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Okay. So in books like as I see it and the Waiting Things Up series, you've written about blindness, technology, employment, bureaucracy, and everything else about life. As you look across the years, which barriers have changed the most and which ones have. Screen Reader: Left buried. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Have been far too stubborn? Bob Branco: Oh, okay. That's a broad question. I would say I would say that society has progressed in many areas, while in other areas I question it. Now I can get more specific if you would like, but that would be the summary of of my answer to that question. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Get more specific. Let's hear from you. Bob Branco: Okay. Technology is fine, but sometimes I think it's being taken for granted. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: Because take the field of customer service, for example. Bob Branco: I want to talk to human beings on the phone. When I ask for service. I don't want to be dealing with constant automation all the time. I would rather speak with people who sympathize and empathize and want to help other people. I know that I would like to be that kind of a person helping other people. I do it all the time, right? But to to reach automation and press one for this and press two for that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Bob Branco: Press three if you have to go to the bathroom. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but you get what I'm saying. Yep. That is so inhumane. I understand that it's fascinating. I love technology myself. I just don't feel that I want to take it for granted. I mean, technology is very convenient for me. Without it, I might not have been able to write all the books that I've written. Right, right. But a good example of what you're asking me about would be customer service. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How would you change that, though? Bob Branco: I don't know if I could change it. I could come up with ideas on how it could be changed. Bob Branco: I think there should be an incentive for more and more people to continue working at the phones. Without people like me and you, depending on automation to get the answers that we need. Bob Branco: I'm not really sure as to why the human component of customer services is gradually being placed in the background. I suppose technology has a lot to do with it because, as I said, people love technology. People want to use it as much as possible, so they incorporate it in their workplaces as much as possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Would you say then that technology has taken away the human touch in many ways, and how has this affected blind and visually impaired people? Bob Branco: In some ways, technology has replaced the human touch. I'm not saying that there is no human touch. There certainly is. I appreciate the fact that there still is. But if you're talking about how technology has replaced it, I think to some degree, not always, but to some degree it has replaced what should be constant human touch. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is that a barrier for blind and visually impaired people, do you think? Bob Branco: I don't know if it's a barrier for just the blind and visually impaired. It may be a barrier for everyone. Sighted or blind. Bob Branco: Because we're talking about human touch versus non-human touch. Right. And sighted people as well as blind people, I think would benefit from that because everybody's a human being. We all ask the same questions. We all, to some degree, need the same services, whether it's about medical needs, whether it's about Social Security needs, whether it's about buying something in a store. I mean, now we've got self-checkout machines at stores, which I particularly don't care for. I would rather be serviced by a human being to make sure that the price is right, that I paid the right amount of money. I don't want to depend on automation to help me you figure out if I spent the right amount of money. What if. What if automation made a mistake and all of a sudden I. I got the shaft and I, I was the recipient of an error. I know somebody would argue with me that human beings make mistakes too. Yes, but human beings have the time to consult and figure it out. And. And maybe they can get help from somebody who would make them realize they made a mistake. How can you realize when automation made a mistake, when you have no human being there to help, unless you have to summon every human being? And I'm sure that's possible, but it does take a lot more time, effort and work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What is your view on the QR code thing? You know, when they say point your cell phone at the screen. Well, we can't do that very easily. So how do you get around that? Bob Branco: I don't use a cell phone. I depend on my landline. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: I've heard of stories about it, though, and I know that people have learned how to use iPhones and and use the blind. Shell. I've heard of the blind shell. I've never used it. Yeah, I've heard of meta glasses where people can learn what's around them visually by somebody speaking what the pictures are, right? You know, I've heard of all of these things, but I've never really wanted to use all of these things. I feel that I can function as a human being with the basic stuff that I grew up with, and I think I'm doing just fine doing it that way. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, so you're saying that you don't have a cell phone, you don't have metal glasses, and you are just fine the way you know you can function? Yeah. Bob Branco: Yes, I believe that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Now, I'd love to talk about the Consumer Vision magazine Sure because it says so much about your commitment to access. What inspired you to create a publication for both blind and sighted readers, and why was it so important to you to offer it in accessible formats? Bob Branco: I think one of the reasons why I decided to publish my own magazine was hearing stories from blind and sighted people about things that are on their minds, whether it would be guide dog issues, whether it be employment issues, transportation issues other aspects of life. And so I decided to compile other people's stories and put them in a publication. Bob Branco: That way I could get a readership where we could share these ideas with other people, sort of like a large community, sort of like a large network of people who read and share ideas about what the average person has on his or her mind, whether blind or sighted. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How old is this magazine? How long have you been, you know, in operation? Bob Branco: It's going to be 20 years in November. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Holy cow. And readership. What is your readership like? Bob Branco: I think approximately 250 people, give or take a few. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. How do you advertise it? Bob Branco: I have a website which is www.magazine.com. In fact, I'll advertise it right now if that's okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Sir. Go for it. Bob Branco: Okay. So you go to magazine.com. You will likely find back publications of the magazine so that you can determine the format, figure out the format, what it's all about. And then there is a section where you can subscribe. And once you subscribe, you will get the publication monthly via email. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Have you tried to increase readership and if so, how so? Bob Branco: I publicize in the magazine how people can subscribe. Of course, if they are already a reader, they don't need to know any more than that. So I use word of mouth. I, I do a lot more networking too, or I just let people know how they can subscribe to the publication. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Okay. Now, many people hear about a magazine and they think only about the finished product. From your perspective, what has it really taken to build and sustain Consumer Vision magazine over time, and what has that journey taught you about serving a community? Bob Branco: I have an excellent staff of writers. I have an excellent editor. I have an excellent proofreader and formatter. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: And I think that is what really contributes to making consumer vision a quality publication. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: And of course, the more experience that I have working with this team, the more confident I am that this type of a project is worth it. It's worth all the effort to share ideas with the public about what's on our minds. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good. Now, you've written for your own publication, but you have also written for outlets such as Matilda Ziegler one. Bob Branco: Yes, I was an op ed, I was a I'm sorry, I was going to say I was an op ed columnist for Matilda Ziegler for about 4 or 5 years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. And you've also written for the American Council of the blind. How has writing in those different spaces shaped your voice and your understanding of what readers need? Bob Branco: First of all, I have to figure out my audience before I decide to write the appropriate article for whatever publication we're talking about. Now, you mentioned Matilda Ziegler magazine that was exclusively a magazine for the blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Bob Branco: So most of the columns that I wrote for Matilda Ziegler had to do with blindness, although I did veer off, I veered off two other topics from time to time, because blind people don't always have to know about blindness issues. Blind people are people too, just like everybody else. So I want them to read stuff about life in general, not just about blindness issues. In fact, that's how I feel about consumer vision. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Right. You have also built a very strong presence in audio through in Perspective sports, Round Table, and other programs. What drew you to broadcasting and podcasting as tools for connection, advocacy, and accessibility? Bob Branco: Let me answer your question by starting with what I want to do. What I was doing back in the 90s. I used to get involved with television. I had programs on cable access television. I had a show called Disabilities Forum, which was on a local channel here in New Bedford, Massachusetts. I was involved from 1994 to about 2000, and I would interview guests relating to the disability community about different issues that disability that disabled individuals face on a regular basis, whether it be medical work related advocacy you know, things like that. We would do that for several years. I also had a sports show on cable access television as well. So when the podcast era evolved, I found it rather easy to create podcasts the way I created the same type of show on television. I got to know more and more people who knew about podcasting, and so that motivated me even more. And one day I said to myself, why don't I just simply do podcasts? So I learned how to do podcasts. I used Skype in the beginning. And then when Covid hit, Zoom became more popular. So eventually my shows evolved from Skype to Zoom. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: In perspective is a similar show, although I'd like to think that in perspective, it's not just a show on blindness. I have a lot of guests on in perspective who have nothing to do with the blindness community. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Bob Branco: Because I'd like to think that we can talk about politics, that we can talk about the legal profession, we can talk about sports, we can talk about medicine as well as blindness related topics. Bob Branco: As a matter of fact, we've done 459 episodes of In Perspective and 438 episodes of Sports Roundtable. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, geez. My goodness. Congratulations. Bob Branco: I started podcasting in 2017. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. So it's a weekly podcast. Bob Branco: Yes. For one hour. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Tell me about the Sports Roundup podcast, because I think I'm going to be one of your guests on April the 20th. Bob Branco: Yes you are. Sports roundtable is a program where about five of us, sometimes six of us, talk about the hot sports topics of the week. We come from all walks of life. We come from all different parts of the country, and we get together for an hour and simply talk about national sports. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So when I appear on your interview on your podcast on April 20th, what am I going to be talking about? What would you like me to talk about? Bob Branco: Well, when you offer to appear on my program, you pointed out to me that you are a hockey fan and where I'm going to have and where I'm going to have another hockey person on the show. At the same time, the theme for this particular show on April 20th will be about hockey. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Good. And I think a lot of I think more and more women are getting interested in hockey. But for me, I've enjoyed hockey for most of my life. I'd love to talk about it. And I'm looking forward to this podcast. Yeah. Bob Branco: I've been following hockey too, for about 58 years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bob Branco: I have my own favorite team, the Boston Bruins. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I knew you were going to say that. Yes, they were a good team. Are they in the playoffs this year? Bob Branco: It looks like they're going to be in the playoffs. Yes. I don't know how far they're going to go, but I'm just grateful that they're in the playoffs for now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So as the clock starts to wind down, tell me what other ventures are you thinking of getting into? Bob Branco: Well, I can tell you some of the other ventures that I'm into right now. I run a bowling league for for persons with disabilities. We bowl once a week and I've been doing that for about 30 years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Bob Branco: Most of the people in my league have one disability or another. There are only two blind people in the league. Me and another person. Okay. But many of the other bowlers have disabilities. There are some that do not have disabilities because I believe in integrating people with disabilities, with people without disabilities. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? What else are you involved in? Bob Branco: I have a friends group that meets once a week. We go out for dinner on Saturday nights. It's a good way for us to fellowship and socialize. Yeah, so we do that pretty much on a weekly basis. Bob Branco: I run phone chats where mostly blind people get together on a Sunday night, and we just talk about whatever is on our minds. We fellowship and we network and we just share stories. It's sort of like a support group. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Bob Branco: Then I offer trivia once a week for people who are interested. We get on a chat line and play trivia, and we devote another evening to music where people ask me to play certain songs that they want to hear. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, tell us about that one. Bob Branco: Well, it's one hour on a Monday evening from 7 to 8 p.m.. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Bob Branco: And people come in and I ask them to request their favorite songs. So once they give me their request, I play it for them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So you have a a large database of songs. Bob Branco: Yes I do. Through Amazon Music on my Alexa device. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you do use some sort of technology, you know, like Alexa. Tell me, tell me, tell us about how you use Alexa. Bob Branco: I basically use it to play music, although if I have any questions or if I want her to look up a phone number, let's say I ask her. Well, once in a while, if I feel light hearted, I ask her to tell me a joke and she'll tell me a joke. Bob Branco: There are a lot of things that you can do with Alexa, and I try to take advantage of as many of those factors as I possibly can. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So basically, Bob, your technology suite consists of Alexa plus your computer and your Braille devices, right? Bob Branco: That is correct. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you feel very comfortable in this world. Bob Branco: I do. I must also say that I am married. I've been married for six and a half years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yep. Bob Branco: To a very, very good woman. Okay. And we get along very well. We like sports. I like to listen to sports. She likes to listen to the Bruins. Also, she watches almost as many Bruins games as humanly possible. I love my Red Sox. I love my Boston Celtics. So we make time to listen to sports and follow the teams. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. All right. You got any parting words for our listeners with regard to. What do you think? A person can do? It's a fast moving world. It's a fast paced world. How can one relax without getting stressed out by technology? You seem to have survived very, very well without getting involved with cell phones and all the other stuff. Tell us. Give us some hints. Bob Branco: I would say manage your time as best as possible. Make sure that you manage your time appropriately enough, where you don't have to be put in the position to be stressed out. People need to realize when they are overwhelmed and when they feel they're overwhelmed, that's when they should draw the line and do things in moderation. That's how I feel. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I certainly admire the fact that you have been able to get along without a cell phone. I do. I admire you for that, thank you. No, no, I do, and I think, you know, the way you've structured your world, I think it's great. It's a certainly a different side of looking at things, you know, a different way of looking at things. It's refreshing. You know, you take us back to the old days, but then again, you still on the edge of the new day, right? Bob Branco: Yes. And like I said, I use my computer, so it's not like I don't associate with technology. I do, and the technology that I use is fabulous. It's wonderful. It's convenient. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Good. Bob Branco: Well, Bob, one more closing thought is sure. I remember now about the orientation and mobility. Yeah. I had to wait till the parallel traffic started before I. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Well that's true. Yeah, yeah. Do you visit the Brooklyn school at all? Bob Branco: The last time I visited Perkins was, I believe in 2018. They had an alumni association meeting that I went to. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Screen Reader: New location from outlook left. Bob Branco: That was the last time I visited the school. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This has been certainly a very different type of interview. I've really, really enjoyed this. Listening to someone who can survive in this modern world by picking and choosing which technology you choose to, you know, be part of your life. I, I really have enjoyed this because, you know, most people, I have to have my cell phone. I must be on WhatsApp. I must be on FaceTime. You're not right. Bob Branco: I use Facebook. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Bob Branco: But I'm not on there constantly. But I use it from time to time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, but you pick and choose which pieces of technology, right? Bob Branco: Yes, I do right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You don't go saying, well, I must have my cell phone with me day and night. I must be on WhatsApp today and tonight. No. Bob Branco: No, I don't do that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. I really admire it. Bob Branco: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, Bob, it has been a pleasure. I I'm looking forward to the sports table with you guys on the 20th. Bob Branco: Well, we're looking forward to having you on with us, Donna. I will spread the word. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, and you and I are working on certain other projects, and we will be in touch. Bob Branco: I'm sure we will. And I want to thank you for the opportunity for having me on your podcast. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's my pleasure. Thank you very, very much. Bob Branco: You're welcome. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You take care now. Bob Branco: You too. Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #84: Ask Advocate Donna | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-04-02-2026/ In this episode of Remarkable World Commentary Donna opens with her favorite quote, "Speak in such a way that others love to listen to you, and listen in such a way that others love to speak to you", followed by her monthly word game pairing respect vs. disrespect (respect is earned, never given) and courteous vs. condescend (the fine line between thoughtful responses and careless, hurtful ones). She also flags a technical note: her Gmail is temporarily broken, so listeners should write to her at [email protected]. The heart of the episode is three advocacy-in-action stories, each analyzed through her standard framework of what, who, why, how, and when. In Scotty's story, a vision-impaired boy denied entry to a park to ride his scooter is defended by his elder brother Damien, who refuses to back down, rallies the parents, and turns the confrontation into a community conversation. In Karen's story, a blind woman is turned away from a knitting class by a teacher unwilling to adapt, but the teaching assistant quietly follows her out and steps in as mediator, modeling advocacy as negotiation. In the third story, three disabled would-be potters rejected by a studio craft a viral Facebook post and successfully find an inclusive instructor, a lesson in the power of collective voice and social media. Donna weaves in her own pottery journey (she's been welcomed by Sean Kelly's Studio on the Hill and Joan Spears's Pleasant Potteries, but was refused twice elsewhere), and closes with warm April wishes. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello there, and I'm Donna J. Jodhan, welcoming you to my Ask Advocate Donna for the month of April 2026. Hope everybody is doing well. And for this month I have lots to share with you. So let's get going. And I want to start with one of my favorite quotations. And it is this. Speak in such a way that others love to listen to you and listen in such a way. That others love to speak to you. Very powerful quote. And I want to start my my podcast with my little word game. And I want to thank those for having commented on it. And again, if you'd like to write to me at any given time, please do so at Donna Jordan at sterling creations.ca. That's Donna Jordan at sterling creations.ca. Okay, my gmail account is presently having some problems, but I hope to get it fixed very soon. Okay, let's look at the first pair of words respect versus disrespect. And in the case of an advocate, we want to ensure that we earn our respect because respect is never, ever given. It is earned versus disrespect. We don't want to be known as a person who is either disrespected or a person who disrespects others. So you got respect versus disrespect. Choose respect. Okay. Respect is when you give respect, and respect is when you gain respect. Okay. All right. How about the pair of words courteous versus condescend? You know, a lot of people these days are so very, very, I would say, aware of these two words, courteous and condescend. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Courteous is when you take the time to give a very thoughtful response to someone or something. Condescend is when you are careless in your response, either via email or via face to face or via virtually. Be very careful. There's somewhat of a fine line between courteous and condescending. Again, courteous is when you take the time to be thoughtful in your response to the one that you're giving it to. Condescend is when you become careless and you say words that hurt others. Okay, that's my word game for this month, so let's move on. I have three stories to share with you, stories that have been sent in to me by others, and stories that I myself have lived. So let's look at story one. Okay? A kid who has been denied entry to a park to ride his scooter. And here is the story. Scotty. Little Scotty really wanted to ride his scooter in a park. Okay. Scotty was vision impaired, but his elder brother Damien, said that he would go along with Scotty, his little brother, and ride together with him. At the entrance to the park, Scotty was told that he could not ride his scooter by an attendant. When the attendant or when Damien, the elder brother, told the attendant that he would be riding with his little brother. The attendant became extremely angry and began to shout at the boys. Scotty started to retreat with tears in his eyes, but Damian stood his ground and he told his or told the attendant that he would be returning with his parents. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And he did just that. The parents, the boys and the attendant all gathered together to have a cosy little chart, and other kids started to crowd around. What happened next? What do you think would have happened next? This is advocacy in action, folks. This is live advocacy. Okay. What is advocacy in this case, advocacy is when these boys, Damian taking the lead, decides to advocate for his little brother Scotty, because the attendant would not let Scotty in to ride his scooter. Okay. And who gets involved in advocacy? Damien, Scotty, the parents, the attendant, and then other kids. Okay. And why is it necessary in this case? It is necessary because the attendant refuses to let little Scotty ride his bicycle in the park. That's why advocacy is necessary. And how does one get involved in advocacy? You do it the way that Damien did first, by standing up to the attendant and then getting his parents involved, and then other kids, and then everyone gathering around for a cozy little church, cozy little chat. Sorry. When do you get involved in advocacy? When an issue directly affects you. Okay, here is the second story that I share with you for this month. Okay. A teacher refuses to teach a blind lady how to knit. This is one of the more common incidents that occur in our society today. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is getting better, but it's still there. And here is the story. Karen was told by the teacher of her knitting class that she could not participate. Because the teacher did not know how to teach her as a blind knitter. The teacher's assistant had offered to help, but the teacher was extremely steadfast. So Karen decided to leave and the assistant had followed her out and they had had a discussion. What do you think that discussion could have been? All right. Could it have been the assistant saying, you know, I think you're doing the right thing by just leaving the class or the assistant saying, okay, Karen, I will help you. Okay. The assistant probably did not criticize the teacher, but tried to patch things up, which I think did happen. What is advocacy here? And again, who is leading the charge from this picture? It appears that the assistant is because for. Whereas Karen left the class. The assistant followed her out and they had a discussion. Hopefully, and I think it did work out like this. The discussion was the assistant offering her assistant assistance and also offering to try and navigate this rough landscape between Karen and the teacher. So she wanted to negotiate. She wanted to engage and communicate. She was the main advocate. Okay. And who got involved in advocacy? In this case, it was the assistant who did. So why was advocacy necessary? Because the assistant saw that there was a problem here or a challenge here, and she wanted to be helpful. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: She wanted to be a mediator between Karen and her teacher. Good sir. How to get involved in advocacy in this case. Exactly how the assistant did it, by going out and following Karen and having a chat with her. When do you get involved in advocacy? You do. So when you think that something needs to be fixed and it is an issue near and dear to your heart. Okay. Excuse me. And here is my third story for this month. Okay. Story three. One that was shared with us. Okay. All right. A pottery studio that is closed to students with disabilities. And as an avid potter myself, I will tell you that I have seen instances where pottery studios, you know, refuse to take persons with disabilities. I've been extremely lucky. I've had two wonderful studios. One is called studio on the Hill by and run by Sean Kelly, and another one was Pleasant Potteries, run by a wonderful lady called Joan Spears. However, I was refused twice by pottery studios who did not want to teach me how to do pottery because I was vision impaired. All right. Here's a story. This pottery studio refused to accept students with various disabilities. These students all knew each other, and they decided to do something about it. They came together and crafted a Facebook post, and they posted their post asking for anyone who could help them, any studio or any instructor who could help them to, you know, pursue their pottery pursuits. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And to find a studio to accept students with disabilities. You know what? This worked. That's the power of Facebook. Okay. So here we go now. What is advocacy all about? And in this case, we have the three persons with disabilities who knew each other coming together, crafting a very catchy Facebook post and putting it up on Facebook. Okay. And who got involved in advocacy. These three persons who were directly affected by what was going on. Why was it necessary here? I think everyone would agree it was necessary because these three persons were being denied the opportunity to engage in pottery by studios who did not want to accept them because of their disabilities. How do you get involved in advocacy? Again, coming together as these three students did. And when do you get involved in advocacy? When the problem directly affects you and those close to you. Okay, so there you have it. My three stories for this month from my feature Ask Advocate Donna for the month of April. Want to write to me? Please do so at Donna Jordan at Sterling creations.ca. That's STERLINGCREATIONS dot C a. So it's Donna Jordan, DONNEODHAN. Hopefully by next month, my gmail account would be fixed, and we will be back to regular operations. In the meantime, everybody, thank you for tuning in and listening in. I wish you a great rest of the month of April. Take care. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at DonnaJodhan@@gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #83: The Hidden Costs of Advocacy | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-04-01-2026/ In this episode of Remarkable World Commentary Donna names the often-invisible price advocates with disabilities pay to show up for their communities. She walks through four recurring drains on her livelihood: volunteering (giving away unpaid slices of her expertise while paid staff manage the volunteers), advisory committees (companies harvest lived experience from disabled members and give little back), free research participation (universities, colleges, and agencies expecting her knowledge for free, or offering Tim Hortons/Starbucks coupons instead of real compensation, sometimes guilt-tripping her that she "owes it to the community"), and free evaluation of draft proposals (including hours spent reviewing Canadian government Accessible Canada Act materials with little recognition or pay). Her call is blunt: stop asking for free labor and pay disabled advocates for their knowledge, skills, and experience. She then shares the most personal hidden cost, retaliation for speaking up. After receiving the Apex cybersecurity scholarship, she raised concerns that Apex's content and LMS were not fully accessible; in response, Apex pulled her scholarship and reimbursed only $200 CAD for an exam voucher that cost $390 USD. She closes with a letter from a desperate mother whose child is being bullied at school, urging parents not to sweep bullying under the carpet but to talk to teachers, listen to their child, and confront the issue head-on. The episode signs off with a warm "Happy April" and her standard invitation for listeners to write in. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentary: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everybody. And I'm Donna J. Jordan, your host for the Remarkable World Commentary, where I get to solo on my podcast. And for this month, I want to talk about something that is very near and dear to my heart. It is all about the hidden costs of advocacy. Yes, there is a hidden cost to advocacy, and many of us don't really realize it until we take the time to reflect and understand what it is all about. Okay, so what does it or what do I mean when I say that there are hidden costs to advocacy? First of all, let's look at volunteering. Each time we volunteer. And I'm not saying that volunteering is not good for us. But every time we volunteer and in my case, I will let you know when I. Volunteer or each time I volunteer, it means that I'm giving away a slice of my livelihood, whereas I'm giving it away for free and I've been happy to do so in the past. Don't get me wrong, volunteering has been an enjoyment for me, a pleasure and a privilege. But there comes a time when you volunteer a bit too much. You give away slices of your livelihood. And what really, really concerns me is that whereas I continue to give away slices of my livelihood, there are those who are cashing in on this because they get paid to manage volunteers. I don't get paid when I volunteer slices of my life for free. Okay. Each time I serve on a committee, for better or for worse, committees are those entities where companies set them up because they really believe that these advisory committees, or whatever they wish to call them, are ways for them to gather and garner information from persons with disabilities. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All well and good, but what do we get in return? Do we get to see our name out there on the websites of those companies that have formed these committees? Or do we give away again slices of our livelihood for nothing? I think this has to stop. I think companies need to understand and realize that for whereas our advisory Committees are great. They do not benefit persons with disabilities in many ways. This is another hidden cost of advocacy. Okay. What about the free research participant. And this one really, really, really concerns me. When universities and colleges and agencies come to me saying, we'd like you to participate in a research. Sure. I'd like to participate, but what am I getting in return? Another hidden cost of advocacy. Most times, they cannot tell me what I get in return for my lived experience, my knowledge, and my skills. And it really does start to annoy me that they expect me to give away my knowledge for free through their research projects. Some of them have even had the temerity to tell me. Well, you know, you owe it to your community to do this. Maybe so, but maybe not. And I'm saying this because I really want those entities who continue to use research projects to garner information, to think about it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Please don't give us coupons to Tim Hortons or Starbucks. Pay us for our knowledge. Okay. How about free evaluation of draft proposals? I've seen several of these in the past year from several Canadian government departments. You know, they come up with the whole thing. Like, could you help us to evaluate our draft proposals for the a c e or a C a at the Accessible Canada Act? What do we get in return for spending hours to help these entities. We don't get much. I can tell you that I have given hours and hours and hours of my free time with little or no compensation. I don't need my name to be out there. I don't need my name to be put onto a website saying one of our participants was Donna J. Jordan. I don't need that. I need to be recognized for the knowledge and the skills and the experience that I have given to these entities. And then when one speaks up after they have seen something that is not right. Again, it's a hidden cost of advocacy. And in this case, it has to do with the apex folks. I received a scholarship from the apex company to study cyber security. But when I spoke up and I talked about the lack of accessibility to their content, guess what happened? They pulled the scholarship from me and had the temerity not to pay me in full for one of the exam vouchers. They paid me $200 Canadian. Whereas the voucher cost $390 U.S.. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That is another hidden cost of advocacy, because I dare to speak up. Not to be spiteful to the apex folks, but to want to work with them after. I've tried and tried and tried. But I will stand by what I have said. In the past, their content was not fully accessible. Their LMS system was not accessible. Okay, so Those are some of the most common pitfalls for advocacy. Hidden costs for advocacy. Okay. I want to end my podcast here by talking about one of the most common things that occur in our lives. And this one is a story that was sent to us by a mother who was really, really desperate. Okay. She was dealing with her child being bullied at school. This is one of the most challenging events in one's life. And how do you deal with this? You don't deal with it by just simply ignoring it or simply sweeping it under the carpet. As a parent, what you need to do is go out there and speak to your teachers, understanding what your child is telling you, why they feel bullied, and you got to use ways to confront this challenge head on. That is one of the most common events that take place in our lives. Your child being bullied at school. Okay. This is it for me for this week. I want to thank you for joining me on my Remarkable World Commentary podcast, and I look forward to talking with you again very soon. Take care and happy April. Podcast Commentary: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #81: Interview with Dean Steacy, Lifelong Advocate | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-03-19-2026/ In this powerful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan speaks with longtime advocate Dean Steacy about the roots of his lifelong fight for justice, fairness, and equal opportunity. Dean reflects on advocating for himself from early childhood, pushing past exclusion in sports, overcoming prejudice in school and the workplace, and later building a career in public service and human rights. He shares how his work in government and at the Canadian Human Rights Commission deepened his understanding of discrimination, evidence, and institutional responsibility, while reinforcing his belief that real progress comes through persistence, courage, and a willingness to challenge barriers wherever they appear. The conversation also explores Dean's sudden loss of sight in 2003, the long road back through rehabilitation and workplace accommodation, and the personal resilience that helped him return to meaningful work rather than accept defeat. With honesty and conviction, Dean describes the everyday advocacy required to secure accessibility, dignity, and independence, from obtaining adaptive technology on the job to confronting inaccessible services in public life. Throughout the interview, Donna highlights Dean's enduring contributions to accessibility, human rights, and disability advocacy, making this episode a deeply insightful reflection on perseverance, public controversy, and the quiet but constant work of creating a more inclusive world. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees a world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate and accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its website accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 23rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to improving. Sorry, to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased and I am honored, and I am privileged to have Dean Steacy, who I have known for the past decade or more, be on our podcast today. Dean, welcome to our podcast. Dean Steacy: Wow, that's quite a bit of an introduction, but more than happy to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Dean, you and I met, I think it was in 2016 when we both attended the face to face conference or whatever you want to call it on. They were asking for input from our community. Your reputation preceded you a long time ago. I knew a lot about you, but I always wanted to meet you. And on that day, I did so. Dean, for listeners who may be meeting you for the very first time, how would you introduce yourself today? Not just by title, but by the values and experiences, experiences that have shaped your you. Dean Steacy: Well I, I would say that I, I as well am have been a lifelong advocate. I started advocating for myself when I was about four years old. Aside from being blind, I also have a physical syndrome, which is called ectrodactyly. Which means that I don't have all my toes and all my fingers. And it's, it's it's quite the syndrome. It goes from being very mild to being very, very severe. And I'm on the severe side, but I as a kid, I wanted to play hockey and nobody would let me play hockey. So I advocated for with it for my parents and my dad, who after had right here, who was a United Church minister, agreed. And but was with the agreement that if I start, I have to play the whole season. I can't quit in the middle of the season. So I agreed to that. And then he stepped in with the conveners of the sport and started making noise. And I was then allowed to go try out and when I try it out, I'd go into the change room with all the boys and change. Well, if you, if you were able to see and, or you can see and you, the first thing you would notice is my hands. They're not like a normal person's hands where they, they have a thumb and fight for fingers. I have what's easily described as the lobster claw syndrome. My hands look like lobster claws. Okay, a and so I was. Nope. You can't play. You get out on the ice. And you know, I couldn't play. And then parents would see my hands and they would complain about the crippled kid. Why is he on the ice? Because he's taking taking spot from my kid who? You know, we're at seven, eight years old, and the parents are already saying the kid's going to play in the NHL. Dean Steacy: So what I started doing was when I had to go to tryouts, I come in, I'd have everything on, and I just step out on the ice so no one saw anything. And then when I made the team, then I'd go into the dressing room and there was now nothing they could do because I was on the team. Right. So that was kind of my advocating. That's where it started. And it wasn't just in hockey, it was in baseball. It was in football. It was pretty much any sport that I wanted to do. I had to push and shove to get on on the team. But once I made it on the team and showed that I could do it it kind of broke down some barriers and I made friends and but I have to say that from there I hit school. I was teased unmercifully throughout school until I hit university. Once I hit university, it kind of went away. But school was a, a story unto itself. But I, I mean, I was a good student. It wasn't a straight A student. But, you know, I had pretty good marks and I made it through school and then went on to college and university. And then I got I spent six years in the militia and that going through that. And it was good because it allowed me to pay for my college and university. And then my first job was with like my first full time job was with the Department of Education in the province of Saskatchewan. Dean Steacy: So I did, I did that. And that was back in the very early 80s where employment equity wasn't really known as employment equity was affirmative action. And I thought, okay, well, I'm going to go in and do this on my own. But it became quite clear that the only way I was going to get permanent employee and it had to sort of stop the managers from thinking, oh, he doesn't have all his, his fingers in his hands. So he's got to be stupid. He's got to be retarded. Excuse me for using that word, but that was the use that was being used in the 80s. So I used affirmative action and that then when it morphed into employment equity and all of that stuff, that's what I used when I got into the federal government. So but to do all of that, I had to advocate. And so I'm a self-taught advocator. I've always gone after barriers wherever I see them and I'm not. Shy at making waves or making noise, and I've done that on several occasions. To get stuff varies reduced or discrimination taken away. So my values have always been justice, fair play and everybody is human. Everybody has a right to try. It doesn't matter what the color of your skin is. It doesn't matter what your ethnicity is. Everybody has a right to try and to to be successful. And other people need to start putting their stereotypes away and give the person a chance. That's kind of the big thing I've always asked for. And sometimes I was successful, sometimes I wasn't. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, Dean, when you look back on your early life and early working years, what experiences first formed your sense of justice, responsibility, and public service? Dean Steacy: Well I think I just innately my mom once said to, to my, my wife when she was describing me and my, my brothers that I always wanted things to be just and fair. And so it kind of was innate in me that that's what I, I wanted and I kind of pushed for that wherever, wherever I worked. And we worked at the beginning, in the 80s the early 80s was not easy. It, it people didn't understand non visual disability and having eye problems. And my, my eye problems start really started to, to show themselves in the mid 80s in that, that my eye, my vision was going down. So I needed it in work, I needed accommodation and I needed because we're now in the computer age in 84, 85, I needed technology to help me use the computer in just a larger screen. And it was a, a hell of a fight to get that stuff. And even when my doctors who the eye doctor I had here in Ottawa, the Ottawa Institute, Doctor Documentservices. A well known, well respected eye doctor. It was still fought. The government still fought it. And, you know, then it kind of started and I'm not saying I started it, but I was at the forefront of if you didn't agree with the doctor's opinion, then you needed to bring somebody from Health Canada in and reassess it because you're not a doctor. Dean Steacy: And I've got a doctor saying I need a larger screen. And because my hands are different, I need, I need a special keyboard and oh, no, no, you can't have it. You can't. So it was amazing how well it worked with Health Canada because my doctor was well known, good reputation, and they listened to what he said and Health Canada turned around and said, you got to give it to him. It's accommodation. And I still had problems getting accommodation throughout. Throughout all my career, I had to push and file some formal grievances and get things done. And I did it. But most of all, when I worked the first job I had after I left Saskatchewan and came to Ottawa was working in a place called Charities Division. So where I, I registered in charities. So you, I learned to go through their documentation and from what I saw being written by organizations that wanted to be charities, I kind of developed a, a sense that there is a group of, of Canadians out there en En masse who who want to do the right thing and who want to do good things. Dean Steacy: And I just learned that that kind of was an area that I, I wanted to be involved in. But as a federal civil servant, I had to be careful, especially working with Revenue Canada, that I wasn't the sort of biting the hand that feeds me, or joining a group that was lobbying against what the government was doing. Revenue Canada at the time didn't like that sort of things. But in 1990, so I worked for charities division from 1985 until 1997, when I joined the Human Rights Commission. And I've had all sorts of cases from pretty much I've done cases under every section of the the act and under every ground. It's in the act. Up and done. Investigation reports. And from that I learned again, you know, that there's there's things going on. And as an investigator you have to look at, at facts and, you know, I always said there's, there's three sides to every story. There's the complainant side, the respondent side, and then there's the truth. And sometimes it is, it's just what falls in the middle. And you go in things being unbiased. And once you gone through all the documentations, you make your determination. And I used to joke, if I made both sides unhappy, I'd done a really great investigation. Dean Steacy: But you know, you, you make your recommendation And I knew from doing the job that one party was going to be mad at me if I said to the complainant, sorry, your complaint is unfounded. They were going to be angry. If I said to the respondents, I'm sending it to tribunal. They were going to be angry. So I learned a lot in that job. I learned the law. I learned how the law worked. And when I'm talking to the law, strictly referring to administrative law. And from there, I moved on. Once I retired, I moved on and started advocating on my own a bit. And then, you know, pushing for things with the banks and the telecommunication industry and different, different types of Organizations that I was specifically being involved in. But there were barriers and I tried to remove them. And I had other colleagues and friends who were also disabled and I would help them. And that was basically my advocacy was self-advocacy, but then it, it, it moved on to you know, once successful candidate act sort of put itself out there and said it was going to come into force. I worked amongst many different groups and I think I even worked with you a bit on. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Dean Steacy: Putting putting pieces together for the accessible Canada Act. And I think that piece of legislation, while not perfect, it it's doing it's or sort of doing his job. There's lots that could be improved in it, but I think that's where I now do my my advocacy and is reducing barriers and trying to get them taken away. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, you permanently lost your sight in 2003. Can you take us back to that turning point and share what that period was really like for you? Dean Steacy: Well, I got to give maybe a bit of background. I'd had a cornea transplant, and I popped a stitch. So when I was waiting to Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How did you do that? Dean Steacy: I just popped it just the, the stitch just popped on the cornea. The transplant? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dean Steacy: And when it went in to have it Have looked at. Excuse me. When I went in to have it looked at. I had a staph bacterial staph infection had gotten into my left eye. So. Yeah. And it turned out pretty bad. They had to inject antibiotics into my eye. And when they did that, I went from seeing to not seeing in both eyes like it was in an instant. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Dean Steacy: So in 2003, on the weekend of, of remembrance? No, Thanksgiving on the weekend of Thanksgiving, I went from seeing to not seeing. I spent 40 days in the hospital hooked up to a drug called amoxicillin that was being pumped directly into my heart to make sure that I. The staph infection was being killed. So once. I won't go into all the gritty details here, but once I was able to to get off the medication and I started rehab. I realized that, okay, I'm blind. What am I going to do? I'm. I just going to sit there and be a blind person. No, I'm going to do what it takes to get back to work and become a, a person who's participating in, in work in the system. I just, I couldn't, I couldn't sit there even though I was being told, oh, we could medically retire you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Dean Steacy: You could be, you know, you could be. And I. After talking to my wife, I was going. No way, said I. I went back to work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dean Steacy: So I didn't again, you can call it negotiate or advocate or whatever you want to call it. I had to do that to get back to work at investigations. And luckily, you know, I'm working for the Canadian Human Rights Commission. They understand accommodation and we negotiated went back to work. And it was rough. You know, I'd been off from work for two and a half years, so I had to, you know, get back to work. You don't go back immediately and you build up. And within six months I was back to work full time, but we were still going through a lot of accommodation and figuring out how I could be an investigator and continue to be an investigator. And we took about six months to work that out. And once I had my accommodations basically, which was having full time sighted attendant everything at the commission is received on paper and the commission didn't have the systems so that it could be scanned and turned into a document that I could read because everybody was using PDFs. And as you well know, the PDF is usually the bane of our lives because they don't work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Dean Steacy: So I ended up getting an assistant who worked for me for over ten years and we developed a really good working relationship And she'd read the documents, and then I would take everything in, and then I'd start dictating to her and she would type. And that's how we put our reports together. And you know, it's kind of how it went. And then I decided in, in 2015 that I, I. I needed to retire because I just was not, had gotten to the point where I was not enjoying my job anymore. And I had always said that once I'm not having fun, yes, I'm going to change. So I, I, I retired. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: After that life changing loss of sight, what helped you to rebuild your confidence, your independence and sense of purpose and who or what supported you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Along the way. Dean Steacy: I have to give a lot of credit to my getting back off of or out of disability to, to my wife. We were told at the time I lived in, in Quebec and I now live back in Ontario, but I had an organization called la santé de the rehabilitation in Quebec, which is basically the center for rehabilitation. Right. And I had a couple of very good I'll say trainers, but mobility trainers and a couple people that helped me. Figure out how I was going to do things. And when they realized I was going to go back to work and I was not going to retire, they had to start figuring out how to help me do that. So they did there was input and there was input from my, my eye doctor about what I could do or what I couldn't or shouldn't do. And but basically the Joanne, my, my spouse, she was the one who stood behind me and prop me up when I, you know, felt I couldn't do it or I was down and, and saying, you know, I want to give up because we all go through that. You just don't get off of or out of rehabilitation or get out of, oh, it's time to go back to work and enter back into work. And it's all all perfect. I mean, I think most people that have been, you know, perfect. Not perfect, but normal and then have an accident and they're permanently disabled. Know how hard this is? I mean, it's, it's I know what I lost because I could see. And I've talked to blind people that have been blind all their lives. And you go on to talk. About things that they don't kind of understand. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Dean Steacy: Where you're coming from as a sighted person has lost their eyesight. And it's it is two different things. And in some cases it's three different things because you have people with low vision and all. I mean, there's hundreds of different levels of blindness and each one has its own experience. So when I was getting told, oh, you can't do this. I was going, yes, I can just give me the give me the means to do it and I'll do it. And then I had a couple of cases of what we can't afford it. And I said, well, you work for the federal government. You can't not afford it. So let's figure out how to do it by. I was was lucky in that I met a couple of other people that, that were in the accommodation industry who, you know, readily came to my help at work and showed work how they could they could do things. I'll give you one, one example of, of the, the way the government works sometimes. And how logic is, is, is word that the government doesn't understand. I'm totally blind, but I've got to print off my documents because the document has to go into the file. Dean Steacy: And before I got my assistant, I was doing all of that. Well, I'd go to the printer. There's nobody around at the printer. I couldn't ask people which one my document was because there's a stack of paper there, and I'd asked for a printer. So I started taking all the papers to find and then putting them on my scanner to scan to find out what my, which was my report. And then and I'd find it, but I'd have all the other papers there, but I'd leave them on the corner of my desk, and then people would come into my office and say, did you take. I said, yeah, I took and have a conversation about it. And it was basically the rest of the staff. Would you get him a printer? Because he's disrupting our work because. And it. So it's like it was logic that I should have a printer. Yes, but the government didn't see that as a need for me to have a printer, because I could go to the printer like everybody else. So that's the silly type of advocating you have to do when you go. You know, it makes sense that I have a printer. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dean Steacy: And I got the printer and everybody's happy because I wasn't taking anybody else's reports. So it it works not just in the government, but I've had that happen with with my cell phone provider when stuff was coming and trying to get my bills in on disk so I could read it. And other people were, you know, I was fighting to get people. So they get the bank. They could get their their bills in Braille. And You know, that, that type of thing. So even though I was at work at the Canadian Human Rights Commission, you know, when I get off work, my time is my time, right? So I was pushing for things and, and I was making, making waves. Like I said earlier, I, I had no problem making waves when it was necessary. Even, even to the, the, the embarrassment of my family members would go do something. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dean Steacy: And where's this? I don't know. I said, well, you need to have it. No I don't. Yeah. Well, yes you do. So this is the conversations you have because they just they don't they don't understand. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Know. Dean Steacy: What disability means and what it means to for some people to have a Braille menu or something else so that the as a client, you can, you can be served. So it, it, it worked even when I was getting served a meal, you know, you probably experienced this, you're at a restaurant and you order something and they just drop the plate in front of you, right? And then you're filling up your water. You had your water glass where you knew it was, and now all of a sudden you're searching for your water glass. Oh, you hit it and you spill it, and they get upset at you for spilling it. And it's like I'm not it's not uncommon for me to drop the f bomb. And there's like, you know, sometimes I would come out when I'm explaining to the server, like you effing put it in the wrong effing place. When I told you earlier, I'm blind to put it in one spot. And so this is advocacy and people don't think that it's advocacy, but it is because you're teaching someone who wasn't thinking about, oh, I got to do things differently for the blind and that that tiny little piece of advocacy spreads because the next time you go back to the restaurant, all the servers know he's blind and you got to do certain things a certain way with him. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dean Steacy: Or he's going to yell at you and nobody likes being yelled at. I mean, I may yell. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It. Dean Steacy: At a person for for, you know, putting a barrier in my place and had a couple of times where I went to places and I told them this, you can't have this there because it potentially could hurt me. And I've gone into places where they don't care and I've tripped over. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Or. Dean Steacy: Over things and it's luckily I haven't been hurt. I just get up and shake it off. And then of course, the store is embarrassed as all get out and you've got somebody there taking around the store and getting what you need. But it for me, it's all little bits of acts that are advocacy and that that's, that's what is going to slowly make things better. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm afraid our daily lives is comprised of advocacy for the most part. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's the only way that we can build awareness, make people more aware. We don't have a choice, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. But before your accessibility advocacy became so visible, you were associated with human rights work in Canada, what did that chapter of your life teach you about rights, institutions, evidence, and fairness? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well. Dean Steacy: I would have to say that the way the Human Rights Act is written, it's, it's all about that. It's about anti-discrimination. Quite frankly, I think that she changed the name of the act to the Canadian anti-discrimination act instead of the Human Rights Act, because that act is really dealing with anti-discrimination under under the different 13 or 14 grounds it has now. So I learned that usually by the time a complaint comes in, the complainant is at their last straw. They tried everything and they're there. They're coming to us because they feel like they have no other choice. And I learned that the majority of respondents, no matter what the complaint is about their their vocabulary is deny, deny, deny. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dean Steacy: So what I, what I learned is In the case of the human rights area, because I, I was an intake officer and investigator, a conciliator, a mediator a manager in the 18 years that I was there. So I had a lot of different jobs. My last two big jobs were as investigator. And then it moved into mediation. So I learned that that, you know, you've got, there's a lot of, I'm going to use the word convincing, but it's synonymous with advocacy and it's synonymous with a whole bunch of different things that you have to do with the respondent to understand, make them understand you as you as a respondent have certain responsibilities that you have to maintain. And when they go no you don't. Then it becomes quite easy. You just send it off to tribunal and the tribunal deal with it. But there was a lot of times where once the, the, the respondent understood more clearly what had happened and they were speaking to me as the investigator, not the complainant, because the, the adversarial piece that was going on between those two parties, sometimes it was so broken that it just needed somebody else to step in and, you know, calm things down and take the facts from both sides and come up with that maybe isn't the actual truth, but you come up with a better story or a more fuller story of what was going on at at the workplace. And you, you kind of developed or at least I kind of developed a style of how you treat both parties. Dean Steacy: But I learned a lot about the law. I learned a lot about in administrative law, what the rights are and what your rights are and what my rights are. And I, I, you know, for the 18 years that I was there, I have to say, I really, really enjoyed things. And had I had a good, good 18 years, but like anybody, some days were good, some days were, were bad. But what made me retire in 2015 was that there was a whole bunch of legislative changes coming on and a whole bunch of changes that the Commission and I had the act memorized. I had the different pieces of what I had to do as an as an investigator down. I didn't need to think about anything. I could just do my job and, you know, do it sufficiently well that my managers were happy with what I was doing. But I didn't I didn't want to go through the course of remembering an act with a whole bunch of changes in it and then procedures and a lot of procedures were being changed. I didn't want to memorize them. I was, I'd had enough. So that's kind of what I talked to my spouse about it. And I'd already been working in as a federal civil servant, a provincial civil servant in the military for 40 years. So I just pulled the plug and I haven't looked back. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, advocacy is not easy. But you, along with so many others like the late Chris Stark, the late John Ray, you guys have done so much. And you know, there's so much more to be done, but our clock is ticking down. I wanted to ask you this question. Your name has also surfaced in difficult public debates over the years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When you reflect on that chapter, sir, what do you most want listeners to understand about the human side of living through public controversy? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well. Dean Steacy: A, it's not easy, but if you're doing the right thing, you get through it and you can walk away with your your head held high. I for people that don't know from 2006 through to about 2011, 12, I was the lead investigator on hate on the internet. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh boy. Dean Steacy: So I'm proud I can proudly say that I managed shut 3 or 4 hate groups down and shut their websites down and have them prosecuted. It it wasn't easy. I got it's rare that an investigator gets called into tribunal to testify, but because I was the lead investigator and I set up the process to investigate hate complaints. I get called in to testify and not not by the complainer or the commission, but I get called in by the respondents because they wanted to show that the way I was investigating didn't, didn't make sense and that I wasn't treating the respondents right. So I would caused controversy is and it was a very technical question, but this is what got a lot of publicity. It's the lawyer for the respondents to the organization. That was at tribunal. She asked me, do you believe in freedom of speech? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Dean Steacy: And I said, no, it's not that they don't believe in that. It's what I believe in is under the Canadian Constitution. It's the freedom of thought and expression. It's not the freedom of speech. We don't have that terminology in our eye or in our context in the overall Constitution. I know it's in the charter, but the Constitution is, is the Constitution and it has jurisdiction over the charter. So when I answered the question, of course, everybody jumps on it that you've got a civil servant who. Doesn't believe in freedom of speech. That's what they picked up on. They didn't pick up on the rest of. The answer is that I believe in thought. The Constitution. So that was in the New York Times, the London Times, the Australian Times is it throughout. It made it into time magazine. It made it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Into. Oh my. Dean Steacy: It made it into a whole bunch of stuff. I was at the the I forget what is it? Bill Riley in the United States wanted to interview me. I always said there was a whole bunch of press people that wanted to interview me, but. What? Well, that caused a controversy. And for me, it it didn't bother me that it caused a controversy because I knew what I was doing under the law was lawful and it was right and what I was doing and it was going to close down hate mongers. I don't know anybody other than a hate monger who would think that they should be allowed to be active like most Canadians who believe in our values don't believe in hate. And I had a Senator Findley who wanted me fired, so he went into the Senate and said a whole bunch of stuff about me, which he picked up from the press and it was wrong. So I was called to testify before the House committee, and I kind of refused and my boss at the time said, no, he's not going to come in to be raked over the coals, but I then had a one on one meeting with I forget what his first name is, but his last name was Hillier, who was the chair of the Human Rights Commission or the Human Rights Committee. And I explained to him what was going on, and I told him what you were hearing from the press is absolutely untrue. And the two Ezra Levant and Mark Steyn had lied to the house. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, boy. Dean Steacy: And I could prove it. And so I gave over the documentation and they read it over and I he apologized and I said, I'm sorry. That's not good enough. I, I was slandered at a house committee. I'd like apologies from the whole committee and I also from the chief commissioner at the time also asked that Ezra Levant and Mark Stein not be allowed on the parliamentary precinct, and then they can't testify before the committee, which they were scheduled to do because the was known that they were going to come back and slander me again. So in the House, I felt it more important to clear my name in the government, in the House, in the House of Commons and everything. Then the press, I mean, the press is the press and they get stuff wrong all the time. Yes, but the house the House has a responsibility to make sure that Canadians especially when it comes to stuff like this, are not slandered. So it was all fixed and I continued on until 2012 when the Liberal government amended the act and took it out. And so I had moved on to other parts of of investigation. So and then the next step I had was I developed the the, the policy around racism for the commission and what, because we were having a lot of complaints from people being stopped by you know, the RCMP or even other police forces. It may not have been a federal jurisdiction, but we were still getting concern and complaints about, you know, I'm being treated in a racist manner. I got pulled over because I'm black And there were there's a case that went to tribunal, so I can talk about it fairly freely as there was a case where a young man here in Ottawa was driving on the parkway, which is federal jurisdiction in Ottawa. He got pulled over in his mom's convertible Mercedes, and the cop pulled him over strictly because he was black. And he wanted to know why and how he could afford to drive a Mercedes Benz. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Dean Steacy: And so it was like, it's my mom's car. I'm going to pick her up. And he's still the cop. Didn't want to believe him. So he's pulled out of the car and they went put him in the back of the RCMP car. Basically they arrested him. And once they got the verification from the mother who was a lawyer, happened to take it to the press, but then it came to us as a complaint. And at that point we had to decide we didn't really know ourselves how how are we going to decide or determine if that was racial profiling? You know, did he get pulled over because he had a broken light and he should be pulled over, but if he was pulled over because he's black driving a Mercedes, that's outright discrimination. So it forced a lot of police forces to start figuring out how their statistics show whether or not they're pulling over the appropriate number of visible minorities or whites or, or what, what's what's going on. And a lot of police forces when they started doing the statistics. We're coming up with proportionately. They're pulling over. Majority of black people than they are white people or a lot of other other racial groups. So I know in Ottawa, the RCMP and the Ottawa police have changed the way they, they do traffic stops, which is a good thing. But it's all, this is all little steps and that's what happens. And this is what really, what I learned the most is that advocacy is, is tiny little steps. But at a certain point, some of us have to decide to be the trailblazers. And if we're not going to trailblaze, things are not going to change because I've talked to people, you know, why don't you complain? Why don't you do this? Oh, it's too much work. Yeah, but you're. You're okay with being discriminated against. I don't want to complain. And not that for me was. No, I'm. I'm going to stand up for myself. And if it means other people get it, then that's great too. But I'm, I'm going to stand up for my rights. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This has been one of the most insightful interviews that I've had with any advocate in a very long time. I've learned so much about your strength and your commitment, and I want to thank you for for having, you know, walked the walk with the rest of us. It's people like you we need. And, you know, like in closing, I just want to thank you for for what you've done, you know? Dean Steacy: Oh, thank you for thank thank you for the thanks. I'm still doing it. I'm. I'm not I'm not doing it as much as I was. But but I, I mean, I've been working with and for years and I've worked with the CBC to make sure that the Olympics have got descriptive video. And I think from the first year that they put it out to this year with the Olympics and the Paralympics, it's it's been much improved, improved. I've you know, I've done stuff with banks to get things made. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Dean Steacy: Accessible. I've worked with TV stations. I'm still doing that. My, my pet peeve on all of this is descriptive video and trying to get it so that everybody has it, whether it's on TV, the theaters or, or wherever. And it's, I'm doing what I want to do and what I like. And I think that that's an easy spot to say. If you want to advocate, pick something that you like that you know needs to be fixed. And, you know, go out and do it because it's really not that hard because like I. I can say that from when I was a kid playing hockey and having a disabled kid on the team was like verboten. Now lots of teams are more than happy to have a disabled kid on the team because they can say, look, we are working with the disabled community or we've got a. Isn't it great that we have a couple of girls playing on the team? To the point now that you know, advocacy has done a lot. We've now got a professional women's hockey league. Screen Reader: New notification from outlook. Dean Steacy: And I think that that obviously I haven't worked on any of that, but I know people that have and but you know, it's a change. There was no thought in 1974 that there'd ever be a professional hockey league for women in Canada. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Dean Steacy: So I mean, advocacy works. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very, very much, Dean. I really, really appreciate it. You keep on going. Dean Steacy: Yeah. And you too, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Dean. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thanks. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Alright, now. Bye bye now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #78: Interview with Mike Calvo, CEO and Co-Founder, Pneuma Solutions | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-03-02-2026/ In this candid episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes blind technologist and entrepreneur Mike Calvo and invites him to share the moments that shaped his view of accessibility as a civil right. Calvo describes growing up in Miami as the son of Cuban immigrants, and he uses everyday stories, like how "help" can turn intrusive when strangers grab a blind person's arm, to highlight the importance of respect, clear communication, and personal autonomy. He also reflects on discovering computers in early adulthood, crediting a mentor's message that "behind that computer you are an equal" as a turning point that propelled him toward technology, advocacy, and entrepreneurship. He then looks back on building assistive tech at Serotek, creating community-centered tools like the Freedom Box and the System Access screen reader to expand independent access to the web and PC software, before explaining how that work evolved into Pneuma Solutions. Today, Pneuma focuses on large-scale digital remediation (including making PDFs WCAG-compliant) and the urgent push for public entities to meet the ADA Title II digital-accessibility deadline in April 2026, an issue echoed in the episode's opening message and his mention of the Title2.info resource. The conversation closes with a shared commitment to empowering blind youth, Donna discusses her "if you believe you can achieve" camps, and Calvo underscores that "there are no lone rangers in the blindness community," urging listeners to seek community, mentorship, and personal advocacy. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast Commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate and accessibility consultant and author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just a sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Mike Calvo. It is my pleasure and my privilege to welcome you to my podcast. Mike Calvo: Thank you. I am I am humbled, honored and curious. Do you sleep? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because, I mean. Mike Calvo: You do so much. That's like, when do you sleep? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's catching up with me. Mike, it is just as it probably is with you as well. Right. Mike Calvo: Well, luckily, and I and I have a team. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Good. Mike Calvo: I have a team, and and and it's a bunch of. We it's the blind army. And we are we we all we all like, get somebody to tell us in what direction to go and we march there. But no, we. Yeah. I mean, it is it has been a challenge. And as I'm sure you know, sometimes it's it's lonely doing what we do because we believe it. And some of us are told, don't, don't like. I was told when I was a kid. Don't don't shoot so high. Don't be a problem. My, my favorite was be normal. It's like. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What? Mike Calvo: What is normal people? I have no idea. But whatever it is, I'm not it. And you know. So yeah, it is it is difficult. I have watched you from afar and admired your tenacity and just your your chutzpah, you know, and the fact that you don't Cubans. I'm Cuban, and we have a saying, and it sounds gross in English, but it makes sense. It says we don't have any hair on our tongue, which means we don't fumble words. We're real clear. And that's what I love about you. You're a very direct person, and that's been awesome, too. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you so much. But now we gotta focus on you and Mike. I'd like to start with this beginning. Can you share your journey as a blind technologist and entrepreneur, and the key moments that shaped how you think about accessibility as a civil right, rather Then as a nice to have. Mike Calvo: So I grew up in Miami, Florida. I'm a son of Cuban immigrants. They came here in the 1960s. And as I grew up in Miami, I started to I've got my training. When my parents found out I was blind. The Cuban culture doesn't didn't, at least at that time, think very highly. Or the the Latino the Latin American culture didn't have very high goals and aspirations for blind people, you know. So most blind people in, in developing Latin American countries were beggars in Cuba as well. Ironically enough, without getting political in any way, just the fact, you know, you got to give the devil his due. Whether you agree with with the with the political situation in Cuba or not, the group that probably gained the most value out of the revolution that took place in Cuba in 1959? Is the are Cubans with disabilities? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Mike Calvo: You and I will go somewhere here in the West, in the US or in Canada or even in Europe. And we'll walk somewhere and we'll be standing on a street corner with our dog or with our cane, and some very well-meaning sighted person will run up to you and grab your arm and tell you, hey, you're about to walk into moving traffic. Mike Calvo: At which point I'm like, yeah, I just my UFO just dropped me off. How do you think I got here? You know? And it's because, you know. Well, I'm just trying to help. I'm like, yeah, I appreciate it. But the way to do that is to walk up and say, sir or ma'am, I see you have a dog. I see you have a cane. Obviously you are visually impaired. Is there anything I can do for you? At which point, if I'm standing in front of four lanes of traffic and you're going across. I'd be like, sure, can I grab a wing? You know, I mean, it's not it's not. I'm not too proud to beg, you know, and, and and, you know, and and we'll do it that way. But the moment you put your hands on me and you break my space, we've got a problem. And and that and that. I say that to preface in Cuba, on the other hand, I'll go and I'll be like, hey, I'm looking for so and so restaurant. And they'll the person will walk up, they'll put their hand on my shoulder and be like, okay, in front of you there. You see, there's a sidewalk there. Walk down. Listen, you hear, on the corner over there, you hear the music over there, turn left. And then if you walk down and count with your cane, literally, I'm telling you, this is what the public tells you. Count with your cane. Count how many doors. When you get to the third door, turn right, cross the street, listen for cars, cross the street and there's the restaurant you're looking for. Would you like me to go with you? No, thanks. I'm good. Cool. See ya. And that's the level of social respect. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Mike Calvo: You asked how I got into technology. I found technology when I was 21. I'm not going to. I've spent a lot of time on other podcasts and stuff talking about. I grew up in a very racy environment in Miami in the 1980s with drugs and, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll or sex, drugs and disco, you know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And. Mike Calvo: And and so I'm not going to belabor that too much, but I was heavily involved in the music industry, in the drug trade when I was a young kid. What I, you know, and, and as I got older I realized I needed to do something with my life and my first, my first exposure besides sell drugs, you know, and do music. I at 21, I found that my, my girlfriend was pregnant and we were going to get married, so that was cool. But I, you know, I kept dreaming of my kid waking up. What is your dad would do? Well, my dad's a drug dealer. He's like, no, we don't want that. So I went and I got a job at a bank. It was the only job I had. And later I, you know, I it was the first and only job I had. And the reason is because when I went to go look for another job. Donna, it was such a challenge. And I had been an entrepreneur all my life. I started a DJ business when I was 13. I, you know, and I said, you know, there's an 80% chance that a business will fail in the first three years. Well, there's an 85% unemployment rate amongst the blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Definitely, yes. Mike Calvo: So so I've got I've got better upside potential to start my own thing and, and and hope that it works as opposed to spending, you know out of every ten visits I get one and a half that might say yes. And even then I'll get to treatment like I got at the bank, which was like after six months, you know, I'm there and I'm like, okay, what am I going to run this thing? You know, I'm used to being I'm used to being the boss, you know? And they're like, we don't know what to do with you. People. Like what? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Mike Calvo: And I went to my my mentor, a guy named Greg Luther, who I will forever be thankful for. I ran into a lot of lazy people in V.I., and I don't know if it was lazy or just burned out or whatever, but Greg was just one of these guys who was just so encouraging, and he said, you know what, Mike? I believe in you so much. He said, you need to learn that computer. And behind that computer you are an equal. And that resonated with me so much. And I found I had a knack for the damn thing. And so I started learning how to, you know, this is back with with dos and vert and all that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Mike Calvo: You know, so I learned how to script and and all that stuff at the time and started Making my job better at the bank by increasing my productivity. If there was going to be, there was literally a blind productivity and a normal employee productivity rate, and it was stated as such. And I said, well, if I'm going to be abnormal, I'm going to be abnormally awesome. So I, you know, so I did that and they liked the level of productivity that I brought. And they were like, hey, we want another blind one. So they went, they went back to VR and Greg calls me up and he's like, hey, Calvin, listen we got a guy. I'm going to send him over there you know, and see if you can teach him the ropes around the bank. So I trained this guy who never trained a person in my life, you know? And I was like, wow, this is cool. And one day Greg says to me, hey, I have a presentation at Ryder Trucks that I need to do for another blind person, and all they need to do is, you know, you need to connect to their mainframe. Show them. Take a computer over there. Show them that you can do it. Show them that a blind person can, you know, navigate and answer some questions. You know. So I was like, okay. So I went and I walked into this room full of supervisors. Screen Reader: Notification from outlook. Mike Calvo: And the first thing I said to them I'll never forget was, hey everybody, it's really great to meet you. And I said, I know that, you know, you see before you this really gorgeous looking blind guy and you say to yourself, how does he look so awesome? How does his clothes match? How is his hair? You know, how is that? How is he so polished? And I said, let me tell you a secret. I said, I'm married. My wife told me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes, indeed. Mike Calvo: And I said, now, fellas, be real. How many of you dressed yourself versus your wife told you that you're going to go out like that because you can't tell them that. You can't tell them that. No, babe, you're going to go out like that. But what? You'll die. But we get told you're going to go out like that all the time. So And I said, but but the reality is, I said, you know, that's how I did that. I make sure I look good because I have a fashion consultant for life. So I said, but what what we're here to talk about is productivity and how a blind person can be a constructive and contributing part of your team. And that began just a love affair for me to talk to open minded, open hearted people that truly are curious, you know, and I've, I have struggled to separate ignorance from stupidity in people. And don't I got a cure for ignorance. And that's real straightforward, honest talking and communication and question asking. And you know, ask me anything. You know, there's no such thing as a stupid question, but there are stupid people, you know. And stupid is the people that just make assumptions. They see, you know? Well, you're not like normal blind people. You're like every other blind person. You're really special. It's like, no man, no, I'm not, I'm me. I'm an individual person that happens to be visually impaired, that happens to be blind. And we are all different. We are janitors and lawyers and moms and dads and students and all of these different things. And there are nice blind people and there are nasty blind people, and there are lovable, and there are dislikable blind people. Because you know what? We we took a survey a few years ago at, at at Sarah Tech, the company I used to run and and we found out that consumer habits of blind people and mainstream people, oh my goodness, they're exactly the same. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, my. Mike Calvo: I imagine that we're we're normal, I guess. So that's kind of, you know I, I stayed at the bank for about a year and a half. I ended up getting a contract with the state of Florida to train blind people. And we proceeded to train over over 400 blind people in the next five years in in Florida and in other states and ended up getting a federal contract. And then in 1993, ish Bill Clinton cut a lot of funding for VR, VR. So I ran back to the studio and trying to figure out what my next steps were, and didn't live as good as I should have for the next couple years. And in 95, 96 just had a spiritual experience to just kind of took me in a different direction, took my life in a different direction, made me realize that, you know, I have a calling. I've been given a gift. And that gift is to really help people Understand, you know, and to talk and to communicate and not get angry and not be judgmental, you know? And so I took that to heart and really started to figure out where I fit. And I found this thing called the internet, and I had never. So I, I'm a hustler, you know, I grew up in Miami, I hustle, I walk the streets, I did whatever, man. When I saw the internet, I was like, oh my goodness, I don't even need to leave home. Mike Calvo: I can just hustle right from here. And I started meeting blind people and understand I had never met a lot of blind people. This is the problem that many of us had in the 70s and the 60s and the 70s. And, you know, we were we were very fragmented. At Sirotek, again, we used to call our community the disenfranchised, visually impaired, you know, because that's exactly what we were today. I mean, anyone listening to this podcast that's used to hearing podcasts and grew up with it. It wasn't like that. It was not. I mean, whenever you saw a blind person was like, what? Oh my goodness, where did you land from? You know, now they're I mean, I know hundreds and hundreds of blind people. And the internet has been the great equalizer. It really literally has leveled the playing field in many ways. And, I mean, we could we could, you know, get the nitty gritty of accessibility and all of that. But for the most part, this, this thing we call the internet has given us as a community an opportunity to organize and to mature our community. And in 1999 I put out a product called the Radio Webcaster, which would allow you to transmit audio from your computer to an FM radio. And a bunch of blind people started buying it. I was like, oh my God, these people got money. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know. Mike Calvo: These people. I was still there. I mean, I'm ashamed to say I was still it was still a me versus them. It was just like, yeah, you never you never met, you know, you never met blind people. And the ones that I did were multiple handicapped folks. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Calvo: You know, so it was like, yeah, you know, and and I mean, that that even reflected later when I got a guide dog because I was like, I'm not going to have my dog. I don't, I can't, I don't have to do, you know, I don't have to feed my cane, you know, put my life in the hands of a dog, for Pete's sakes. You know, and, and and all of a sudden, people I deeply respected are, like, hauling ass with their dog. And I'm like, okay, wait, guys, catch up. I'm coming with the stick. Like, listen, why don't you just grab my arm and we're gonna. And I walked with this blind person sighted guide with their guide dog. Shh. Not supposed to do that, but, man, I we flew and I was in love. I was like, oh my goodness, I gotta have one. And I got I got a dog later. But in 1999 people started buying this product. And blind people, as we we would be to do, we would do we they started telling, well, it would be great if it did this. And if it did that, it did the other. Well, in 2001 created a company called Sirotek and. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Stop you right there, because I want to know I want to move on a bit. When you look back at your Sirotek years, what do you see as the biggest breakthroughs you helped to pioneer, and what lessons from that era directly influenced how you built humor solutions? Mike Calvo: Oh, wow. I learned, I think, I think I learned the power of us as a community, the power of us. I realized I met some really awesome people. Jeff Bishop, Daryl Hilliker all of the Jim Snowbarger. Jonathan Mosen just so many people that that were that were my my just my mentors, my friends, my role models. And I realized, man, I can do this and understand, you know, I'm a drop out of high school. I have no formal education whatsoever. None. And you know one of the reasons I work so much to do what I do and believe so much in the law of accessibility. 508504 is because I got in just at the beginning of those 504 50508I mean, had just been done. So when I was in school, in elementary school, and in junior high and high school, it was. They were still working out the kinks in the in the system. But, you know, the law is so important because it makes people stop or it should make people stop. And, you know, think about this underserved community or how they can help this person. And I realized that there was an 85% unemployment rate amongst the visually impaired back in 2001. And in my naive 30 some odd brain, I'm like, you know, technology, technology is going to change this, man. You watch, we're going to we're going to eat the world. And and I had a developer that I'd met on a, on a, on a board named Matt Campbell. And, and he was just this young kid voice hardly even changed. And he started I talked to him and he was just like a super nerd and told him what I was doing. And he's like, I can help you with that. Okay, so Matt started. He was he was the first person that started working with. And we we we built the first freedom box. And I realized, you know, because at that time, blind people could get on the web, but you needed to be really nerdy, you know, and use Linux, or you needed to be really wealthy and be able to afford jaws, you know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right on. Yes. Mike Calvo: You know, so I said, I don't care about the 9 to 5. I mean, obviously I do, but my my job is more about the 5 p.m. to 9 a.m. people. What am I going to do? What are they going to do? How are they going to get entertained? And the biggest thing going at that time was like web TV, you know, I said, well, let me make an accessible web TV, which is what Freedom Box was. It was kind of a an Alexa, sorry if anybody's machines off an a lady for the for the 20th century. And 21st century, I guess. But she it it was an amazing product that people really started taking to and again, started it just evolved into a screen reader. I realized we needed a little screen reader because while everything we did online was online, but there was still some software that people needed to use on their computer. And we, you know, you had to spend $1,100 for Jaws, or we came up with something called system access, and system access was a screen reader, but it was we didn't want to lie and call it a screen reader. So we called it System Access, Accessible access to your system. That's it. And all it could do is run in windows and stuff. So, so essay to Go was used by, you know, thousands of people everywhere. And it just showed me that, wow, if we build something, we can really give blind people an opportunity to be upwardly mobile. And this is before mobile phones and all that stuff. I mean, you know, mobile. I think I think things like the iPhone and even Android have just literally changed our lives as blind people. Yeah, but before that, the computer was all we had. And I'm sure you remember, you know, our blind friends with that look like little pack mules with their big old backpack on their back full of computer technology. Oh my goodness. To go to a conference. And you got that blind person that didn't realize how big their backpack is and smacks people with it? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No I know. Yes, I remember that. Mike Calvo: I love it. But what we what what we did at Sirotek was we created a community. We created podcasts through the talk network. And from there we have great people. Rikki Enger, Joe Steenkamp, Lisa Salinger, Richard Wells, buddy buddy buddy Brannon. Yeah, just all of these. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, buddy. Mike Calvo: I remember all of these people that Brian Kivlahan people that that are, that are, you know, really still even active in the community. And they started with us and I was so honored to work with that team. And we worked together for a number of years. In 2017, my business partner got very ill and passed away last year but stepped down in 2017, and we tried to keep the business up for a while, and it just, it couldn't. So our lawyers just said, you know, we're going to close it down. And and we basically just rebranded and, and, you know, and reopened the company pneuma in 2019, Matt had left Sirotek and started working at Microsoft on the narrator team. And we had some ideas. I mean, Matt and I built seven products together. We built, you know we built dock scan, plus we built an accessible meeting platform. We built remote incident manager Rim in 2007. A lot of people don't know Rim is from 2007. So we were the first remote. Excuse me? We were the first accessible remote platform out there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Mike Calvo: So it was it was very cool. And now, you know the the the reality is, you know, I go where I'm needed. You know, I don't I'm not going to, you know, I have no sacred cows, you know and to me, it's a matter of saying, you know the consumer space is not necessarily where a company is going to make its money anymore in our community, because there's just not enough, enough income. You know, the sad truth of the matter is that, you know, I came into this community developing software with an 85% unemployment rate and did some really earth shattering stuff with technology, us and others. And they're still in 85% unemployment rate. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah. Mike Calvo: And as I said earlier, it's a social problem. It is not a technical one. We we are capable. And I was honored to be part of of a very nice elite group of people that had to do with the web accessibility standards, that had to do with UI automation and, and all of that good stuff that all of these, you know, the wcaG the wcaG standards, all of that stuff. We worked to do that and to see that organizations are not doing this is just so sad. Which is why I think the law, as much as I'd love for people just to be nice and do it, that's where the law is. I mean, that's just the world we live in. You're you're not going to get, you know you're not going to get enough. And the sad thing is there's some reality to it. I mean, you know in a restaurant, how many blind people go in a year, you know? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely true. Mike Calvo: You name your restaurant, yet that restaurant is required to have Braille menus. You know, so, you know, the way I do it is, you know. And now, thank God we've got, like, Covid gave us QR codes on the table. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So. Mike Calvo: So yeah, I love it. And and if not, you just wave your phone around and see if it gets a QR code somewhere. And and and and now, of course, the meta glasses. I mean, there's so many options, but you know, but back then it was just dreaming, man. We, we we really wanted to change the world and we, you know, and and it was we to this day, the sad thing, the sad truth is to this day, I don't know where my next paycheck is coming from, you know. We have we built pneuma to be an what we call an augmented media remediation company, which means we remediate digital media. We make we make you know, PDFs. We tag them, we make them wcaG compliant. We do scribe for documents, which converts any, any printable document to an accessible format, be it large print, Braille, MP3, daisy, all of that stuff. And, you know, we we have a number, a couple of enterprise customers for Rim. Because we brought Rim back in 2021 because we needed to make some money and and money wasn't coming in from scribe for documents. The technology wasn't where it needed to be yet. So we brought Rim in and that sustained us. And then, you know when title two came up, we were like, yes, you know, we're going to be able to do this. And And then AI started coming along and was like, wow, this is cool. And then then, you know, the current administration came into office. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Never mind. Mike Calvo: And they rolled up Di with accessibility. And I have a very big heart for diversity, equity and inclusion. I believe it's a right. I believe that people have the right to be themselves, love who they want, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But sorry, blindness doesn't fit in that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. Mike Calvo: It does not. And there are laws, you know, while di for the most part, in many, especially for folks that live alternative lifestyles, is a a social problem, blindness and the remedies to to deal with blind people in public places are laws, and those laws need to be adhered to. And unfortunately what we found is that very few organizations, because of the political climate we're in, which historically, interestingly enough, a Republican started the Ada and the Republicans have been the worst embracing it ever. But, you know, we're this year, we're hoping we're we're pounding the pavement because title two the the laws over in Canada, the Aoda law in Canada, the European accessibility act, all of these different acts are hopefully getting people to come to us and remediate lots of documents. We've created a technology, Donna, that is just really, really amazing. It creates wcaG aligned documents tagged PDF, and we can do hundreds of thousands of pages a day. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Are people coming to you, Mike? Mike Calvo: We I am restricted contractually of saying who. Yes. In in a public setting. But yes, we have had some we had one big customer last year. That was how we, you know, that's how we lived. That's how the company survived this year. We're living on what's left over from that and we're moving forward. We're, you know I've been here a long time and I've, you know, lived on the edge for a long time. I'm not I'm not used to three digits. I, I'm not I'm not scared. I'm not, I'm not used to I'm not scared of three digits in the bank when they need to be, you know I've been in a company with $100 in the bank, you know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But it takes a special type of person, trust me. I've lived off the edge many, many times. Aaron would tell you that my dear friend Aaron. And Aaron has encouraged me to. Donna, you can't give up. Donna. No. Donna. No. And I'm saying, oh, God. Aaron, I don't know how much longer I could take this, you know? But you're right. It takes a special type of person like yourself. And we need more of you. Mike Calvo: And you. It's it's the audacity of hope. I think Barack Obama said it. It's the audacity of hope. How dare you hope, Donna, how dare you, blind person, step out of the, you know, the little public, the little public frame that that the world has put you in that little box where you can maybe do this and do that, but you couldn't possibly do that, you know? How dare you, you know, dream and actually accomplish those dreams. And for me, that's that's what it's all about. My kids. I gotta tell you, I've got five beautiful children. Advertisement: Oh. Mike Calvo: And my my wife has two, so we have seven between us. Okay. And five of them are girls. Yeah. Someone. Some would call that karma. Yeah. Yeah. Women's have been. Women have been a big part of my life. So but to me, you know I got to be able to look at my kids, and they got to look at me with respect. I'm dad. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Mike Calvo: You know what I'm saying? And and and if I, if I show, you know, not weakness because I believe in being transparent. I had a very sordid childhood. My children know what I used to do. My children. I'm not that you know better than thou. I was this way, and now I would have never done that. I did it all. I did what I needed to do. I did what I wanted to do when I was younger. And I just believe very much in owning your stuff. You know this is a rated G show, so we'll keep it there, but owning your stuff. And don't be a jerk, you know? I mean, you know, be honest with people, be honest to self and understand that everybody gets scared, you know? Yes. Everybody gets concerned. There is not. I've been speaking in public for 25 years or more. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Mike Calvo: There is not one time that I go up there that I'm like, oh yeah, I got this. No. Every time there's butterflies in the stomach, there's, oh my God, am I going to do okay? Am I going to stay on track? Am I going to remember my notes? Are people are people going to be, you know, changed from this because the whole idea of going up there is not to get a stipend or get a payment. It's to change people's lives. It's to make people say wow and to remind them there is absolutely no difference between you and me, except for that you're you and I'm me. Aside from that, we're the same. Which means that we are all unique. I'm not looking to do things the way you do them, but I do want to know how. And you don't need to be doing everything the way I do. But let me help you, and you know, and we will get through this. One of the one of the most awesome things I used to enjoy was going to the conferences and watching a big old herd of blind people trying to get somewhere. Absolutely hilarious. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm sorry. That is so descriptive. And it is so very. Mike Calvo: Oh, it's like, you know, everybody's like. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Mike Calvo: And and and the thing about it is that what I noticed is sighted people are intimidated by you or me on our own, but let a whole bunch of blind people come up to a sighted person be like, oh, yeah, come on. And they having a great time with. Oh, and everybody's laughing and they're taking us and you know, it grabs they do the conga line thing where one blind person grabs the sighted person's arm, and then everybody starts running after them. And we got a hell of a show going on at the hotel, you know? But it's fun and it's the power of us, and it's the power of people sharing with other people. Hey, if you go down to the lobby and you listen, you hear there's a water fountain and and watch it because it echoes. So when you're walking through, you need to listen carefully because it's going to be on your left. But it might sound like it's coming from your right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Mike Calvo: Yes. You know, things like that. That it is the power of us. The power of us. The power of communication, the power of technology, the power to say we can as a community and that we have as a community. Things really suck right now in the way of in accessibility circles. They don't look very promising in many respects. But you know what? But we're going to do this. We're going to get through this. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How are you planning to do this, Mike? Are you going to continue with your I don't know what what word I'm looking for to describe you dynamic. You know, what is next for you on the drawing board. You know, tell me, show me. Mike Calvo: So I'm I'm going to continue to do what we're doing with scribe Matt, my business partner who used to be my CTO. My son David just joined our team last year. He's our AI genius. David graduated from Johns Hopkins top three in his class. Oh yeah, very smart young man. And he just got married. And so, you know, I'm I'm going through that. I'm watching my kids grow up, and I'm like, oh, my God, I did that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're responsible for. Mike Calvo: It. You know, we did that, you know, and and it's like, it's so amazing to watch them and to and to realize, you know, so many of us feel unworthy when your kid says, yeah, but dad, you said, I'm like, yeah, nobody else gives a shit what excuse the darn about what I say, why should you? You know, because I'm your son. I'm your daughter, I love you, you know, you set an example for me, you know, and my kids are open minded. They are. They are transparent people that ask questions and want to know. So for me, I'm just going to continue to to help people. I mean, I believe very strongly that I have a calling and that calling is to help, you know, just to help people understand life and, and the challenges that it comes and to encourage people you know, and, and and to into our, our, our, our sighted friends or people that are listening. I have a talk that I used to do. It's called no excuses. And and you know, we as blind people, society gives us every excuse to do absolutely nothing, and they'll be cool with it. What do you do? Blind person? No, nothing. I sit at home and read talking books. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In my rocking chair, I watch TV. Mike Calvo: Oh, good for you. Oh my God. But you live alone, right? Yeah. Nobody wants to share. My. Mike Calvo: Nobody wants my lazy butt. Mike Calvo: But but yeah, I mean, but you know what? I refuse to accept those excuses because if you don't, you know, there are some very legitimate reasons for things. And, I mean, listen, I, you know flight simulator is a great thing, but you're never going to see my blind behind a in a in a in an airplane flying it, you know? So that's a, that's not an excuse. That's a reality check. But I don't want to do this because this will fail. And and so what? You know what? Failure isn't isn't not something not working out for you. It's never getting up off your booty and doing it. It's never it's saying it's it's saying, okay, I've got this way. I want this to work, but I need to be flexible. I need to be like that. Bamboo. You ever seen how bamboo? A shoot of bamboo. You can bend it all the way down to the floor. And you. And then when you let it and it goes down, and then when you let it up, it bounces back up and you can never see the crease of the bend because it bounces back. And that's what we need to do as blind folks. We need to be bamboo. We need to be. And I'm not saying to be people's, you know, emotional verbal punching bag or any of that kind of thing. Mike Calvo: But you know what? Really? Count your battles, man. Sometimes, again, separate the stupid from the ignorant. If you've got that Uber driver that you know didn't like your dog or whatever, he's pretty stupid. But are you going to really ruin the rest of your day over it? Are you really going to go home to your family or go into your office pissed off because you ran into a stupid person? You know how many, how many stupid people those sighted people ran into in traffic that morning, you know? So so to me, it's it's just a matter of really just being available, you know, here I'm, I'm older now. I've got experiences that I can share. I'm not angry anymore. And that's. I don't know about you Donna or the listeners, but as I've gotten older, I've gotten less angry because it's like, you know, I told you when I was 20, I. When I was in my 20s, I swore I knew everything. And then when I got into my 30s, I realized that I may not know as much as I thought I did when I got into my 40s. I'm like, I don't know nothing. I'm here to learn. And then for whatever reason, when I hit 50, it just didn't matter anymore. This is who I am. Take it or leave it, man. I'm good. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But it takes a lot of confidence to say that. And I'm presently engaged in developing camps for for kids leaving high school and those young adults. And the mission here is if you believe you can achieve. Mike Calvo: But Amen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's not easy. And as our clock winds down, I want to ask you this. What's next for Mike? Mike Calvo: I don't know, I, I don't know, I you know, Donna, I'll tell you something. You know, I. I love Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs is Steve. Steve Jobs has every right to be and totally was a narcissist. Why? Because Steve Jobs is one of the only people I can think of that can stand in front of a mirror and look and say, if I hadn't come, the world would be different. And Amen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Amen. Amen. Mike Calvo: Amen. Yeah. Listen, Steve, wherever you're at, you can you you can be as narcissistic as you want, dude, because you are absolutely right. The world would have been different. It would have been different for millions and millions and millions of people. There are billions, literally billions of accessible devices in this world behind places where you and I could have never gotten things to 30 years ago. 20 years ago. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Agreed. Mike Calvo: You know, so. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My hero, home. Mike Calvo: I don't know, I, I, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm here I speak to groups, I speak you know, we remediate documents. We're, you know, we're we're here and and we're going to keep, keep working in this community. And I forgot to mention earlier, I have to comment. Aaron has been such a blessing to me as well. Aaron is a super encouraging human being. And there's a there's a special place for him in my heart because. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Me too. Mike Calvo: He has he has truly just been inspirational to me, encouraging to me. And and the guy happens to know what he's doing. So. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I mean, Aaron is special. Aaron is my friend for life, my associate, my mentor, my advisor. You know, I don't know what else to say about the man. I don't think he sleeps. Mike Calvo: Yeah. Listen, same back at you. You know, Donna, it has been an honor to be here and to finally meet the woman behind the legend. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, God. Please. Mike Calvo: No. Seriously? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You ever come to Canada? Mike Calvo: I do every once in a while. And in fact, I was thinking about My wife's daughter's grandparents live up there, and we were thinking about going there, and if you ever want a guest speaker at one of those at one of those camps be it even remote or whatever, I would be happy to do it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will probably be calling on you like we have two camps that we're developing right now. One is the. To have Air Canada has given me a certain number of tickets to fly participants to the I retreat camp next July, 2027. Doctor Allen Chase and the other camp is we're developing it to be able to hold a camp in Quebec, camp Massawippi. We're working on that, but we have to find the funding. And I would be delighted to ask you to be a guest speaker. Mike Calvo: Let me know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If anybody else. Yes. Mike Calvo: I I'll tell you. For me, as a kid, camp was life changing. It was a great social experience. You know kissed my first girl at camp, you know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Secrets are coming out. Mike Calvo: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was it was a great time. The Florida Lions camp was was and and, you know, we went in and we did normal quote unquote stuff. Rode horses. You know, went swimming in the lake. You know, learn to clean our room, learn to fold our our, you know, make our beds and all that stuff. Camp, camp and independent living facilities to me are so important to our community. There are no lone rangers in the blindness community. If you are recently visually impaired, find find a blind person to shadow or 2 or 5 or ten. Get involved in a group. Listen. Blindness, you know, just to be honest, is a pain in the behind, you know, but it is not unsurpassable. We've got more problems with the way people see us than the way we see ourselves, you know? So you know, if we can get beyond that, if we can support one another, you know, count me in, count me in. And thank you again for, for for inviting me to your program. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It has been a true pleasure and honor, and I hope we find an opportunity to work together. I really, really do. Mike Calvo: Let me know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. I will be in touch. But again, thank you, Mike. Mike Calvo: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. You take care now. Mike Calvo: You too. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Mike Calvo: Oh, by the way, by the way. Wait wait wait wait. You may want to give this. We may we may want to give this to Aaron. Aaron I'm going to give contact information. So Donna, if anybody wants to reach out to me I have a very open door policy. You can visit you can email me at Michael. That's c a l v as in Victor o at pneuma solutions.com. And I'm going to spell pneuma because it's a little strange. It's p n e u m a. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: R. Mike Calvo: Solutions.com. I put the p in there just to tick off blind people. Mike Calvo: It's actually a, it's actually a Greek word, but. And the other and the other thing that we run that I'm very proud of is called title two. Title number 2.info. And if you want to know about upcoming laws and, you know, go to your local, whatever, whatever your local you know, your local place of business government business any, any, any kind of place that has inaccessible PDFs and if they need to comply with title two, they've got a very short time to do it in. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know. Mike Calvo: So point them at that resource. Yeah. You know and and advocate folks advocate for yourself because you know, we've got groups that do it. But individual advocacy is so important anyway. So thanks again. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think what I'd like to do is reach out to you about my camps if you believe you can achieve. And I think we can do magic together. Mike Calvo: I agree. Let's do it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Mike. Thank you. Mike Calvo: Thank you. Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You take care. Mike Calvo: All right. You too. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Bye. Bye now. Bye bye. Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #80: Ask Advocate Donna | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-03-02-2026/ In this empowering episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan invites listeners into her "Ask Advocate Donna" format, where she reflects on the meaning of advocacy and challenges her audience to think about how professionalism, communication, and perseverance can shape successful outcomes. Using a favorite quotation and a word game contrasting "professional" versus "unprofessional" and "ordinary" versus "extraordinary," Donna sets the tone for a practical discussion about how people can stand up for themselves when they believe they have been treated unfairly. She then walks through three real-life style advocacy scenarios: a woman denied access to a crafts class because of her age, a man excluded from a social event because he did not speak Cantonese or Mandarin, and a family prevented from selling Amish products in their neighborhood. In each case, Donna breaks advocacy down into clear questions—what it is, who gets involved, why it matters, how to proceed, and when to act—emphasizing that advocacy begins when someone feels wronged and grows stronger when approached step by step, with support from friends, family, and the wider community. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, I'm Donna Jodhan and welcome to my monthly advocacy podcast, where I hope that you have questions for me and I have questions for you. And I have thoughts to share with you. Okay, so it's my monthly podcast called Ask Donna. Okay. And it's called Ask advocate Donna. Okay, so let's start off with this little quotation. Speak in such a way that others love to listen to you. Listen in such a way that others love to speak to you. Okay, I love this quotation. Okay, I want to start with my favorite word game and to sort of get your thoughts going on my word game, I have two sets of words to give to you. And here is the first one. Professional or unprofessional. Many times in the world of advocacy, professional versus unprofessional makes a difference in whether or not you succeed or you don't. It makes a difference in how far you can go in advocacy. Make yourself professional and you'll see how the power of professionalism works for you. Become unprofessional. And soon doors and windows will start slamming in your face. Professional versus unprofessional. And here is another pair of words for you to consider. Ordinary versus extraordinary. What do you dream of? A dream that is just ordinary. Or a dream that can be extraordinary. In the world of advocacy, people love to look at the extraordinary. It is not easy to get to the extraordinary. I think, first of all, you got to shoot for the ordinary. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And after shooting for the ordinary, you then train your sights on the extraordinary. Okay. Now, I have some stories to share with you that listeners have sent to me and through my own lived experience as well. Here is the first story. Okay. A woman has been denied entry to her crafts class because of her age. How do we advocate for this? Okay. Brenda was told that she was too old to be in the crafts class. Seniors were not eligible, she was told, and she was mortified. She was horrified. Only those under the age of 55 were being accepted. Brenda was 60. Brenda could not understand what was going on and so she approached the administrators. At first they did not budge, but then Brenda thought, well, you know, I need to go one step further. And she went to the community centers, administrators themselves, and she took her friends along with her. The community center was sympathetic, but said that they could not do anything about Brenda's dilemma. What would you advise Brenda to do? Okay, here is what I would advise Brenda to do. First of all, what is advocacy? Advocacy is when you stand up for yourself because you feel that you have been wronged, not because you feel that you are entitled, but you feel that you have been. You have been wronged. And in this case, Brenda has a good case, because if she is being told that she cannot be accepted into the crafts class because of her age, I don't think that that is a proper reason. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And who gets involved in advocacy? Brenda starts it all up and then Brenda includes her friends. Why is advocacy? Why is advocacy necessary here? Because Brenda feels that she has been wronged. And in order to right a wrong, Brenda has to engage and in advocacy and use this avenue to bring her friends along. How do you get involved in advocacy? By going step by step. As Brenda did, first, she went to the administrators of the class and they said no. Then she went to the community centers authorities and they said no. So now she has to get involved more deeply in advocacy and figure out what's the next step. Who does she go to after she has talked to the folks at the community center? Okay, now for my second story. All right. All right. A professional has been denied access to a social event because of their culture. Okay. And here is the story. Ryan was told. That because he did not speak either Cantonese or Mandarin, he could not attend. Ryan argued that because this was Canada and because English and French were the main language official languages of Canada, it was his right to attend this social event. He should be granted access because of the language requirements. Again, English and French being the official languages of Canada. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Those who were hosting the event said that they had a right to have their own rules. Ryan argued that in Canada, everyone had a right to attend. What would you advise Ryan? Again, what is advocacy? And in this case, advocacy is all about the right to attend a social event because the official languages of Canada are English and French, not Mandarin and Cantonese. Who gets involved? Ryan starts the ball a rolling. And he starts with himself and then builds his advocacy through friends and family. Okay, why is it necessary here? Because there's a strong case for saying that you cannot discriminate against someone because of a language. Okay. How do you get involved in advocacy? By engaging and by communicating with others. Okay. And when do you do this? You do this when you feel that you have a good case for advocating for something. A good cause or a good reason? Okay. And now here is my third story of the month. A family is unable to sell or set up a business because of the products that they sell. And here is the story. The Gregg family wanted to sell Amish products in their neighborhood. They were told by the municipal municipality that they could not. Because only products sold or made by a certain group could be sold there. What would you advise the Gregg family to do? Should they walk away and look for another place where they could sell their products? Or if they feel strongly enough about this, they can just simply start the ball rolling by looking for ways to advocate to sell their products. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is not an easy nut to crack. Okay, again, what is advocacy? Advocacy in this case is wanting to sell your Amish products in a certain area. Despite being told that these products cannot be sold because only another group or a certain group can sell their products. This is a good case for advocacy and who gets involved. The Greg family has to start the ball rolling and they have to put their case together, get their documents together, go step by step. Why is advocacy necessary in this case? Because the Greg family is being told that they cannot sell their Amish products in this area. Only a certain group. We need to find out. Why should it be only a certain group and not the Greg family's products? How do they get involved in advocacy? Like I said before, we start the ball rolling and they build support and they build help from those around them. When to get involved in advocacy in this case because they feel or believe that they are being wronged? Okay. All right. Those are my three stories for this month. I hope you enjoyed my feature. Ask Advocate Donna and I will see you next month. Have a great day. Buh bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #79: Customer Care or Company Revenue | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-03-01-2026/ In this thought-provoking episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan examines the ongoing tension between customer care and company revenue, asking how businesses can strike a meaningful balance between serving people well and protecting their bottom line. Drawing from her own experiences speaking with customer service agents, she reflects on the importance of empathy, patience, and going above and beyond for customers, while recognizing that many agents are working under intense pressure to keep calls short and meet company targets. Donna raises important questions about what happens when a customer still needs help after an agent's allotted time has run out, and whether true customer care is even possible under such constraints. Rather than offering an easy solution, she leaves listeners with a powerful challenge to think more deeply about whether companies are genuinely committed to service, or whether revenue goals too often take precedence over people. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access, technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, I'm Donna Jodhan and welcome to my March podcast where I talk about customer care versus company revenue. You know, this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. And I say this because so many times I have interesting conversations with customer agents on the phone and we talk about, you know, customer care versus company revenue. All right, how does a company find a meaningful balance? Between customer care and company revenue? Again, customer care and company revenue. All right. How do they find a meaningful balance? To provide adequate customer care while at the same time they want to maintain and expand their revenue. What are the benefits to both? Well, let's let me look at this a little bit in depth. Customer care is really important to those of us on the other side of the fence. When an agent takes the time and effort to offer great customer care, great concern, the ability to go beyond and above the call of duty. But then again, they have to be concerned when their company says, you've only got a few minutes to spend on each customer. How can a customer agent provide adequate customer care when their company is breathing down their necks, saying, you must not exceed a certain number of minutes when dealing with a customer? What happens then if the number of minutes expires and the customer is still wanting more help. What should a customer agent do? I really don't know. I wonder if anybody knows. Is there a balance? Is there really a balance? Customer care versus company revenue. I'd like to know. Okay. This is it for me for this week. Thank you very much to everyone. And if you have any questions, write to me at Donna Jodhan at gmail.com. That's D o n n a j o d h a n at gmail.com. Take care now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna Jodhan at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Dining With Donna Podcast: Interview with Debra Erickson, Founder, The Blind Kitchen | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/dwd-02-17-2026/ In this inspiring episode of Dining With Donna, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Debra Erickson, founder of The Blind Kitchen, for a candid conversation about vision loss, resilience, and reclaiming confidence in the kitchen. Debra shares her journey from a shocking diagnosis of retinitis pigmentosa at age 28 to learning essential blindness skills and fully embracing her identity, while Donna connects through her own experience of having to re-learn cooking without relying on sight. Together, they explore Debra's core message: vision loss does not have to end your love of cooking, and with the right support, techniques, and mindset, fear can be replaced with competence and joy. Debra explains how her frustrations with inaccessible online cooking content, especially videos that offered no useful description, pushed her to build The Blind Kitchen as a structured, one-stop teaching hub with extensive audio-described instructional resources. She and Donna dig into practical, immediately usable strategies: setting up a clean, predictable work area (trays, a scraps bowl, and a "parked" spot for sharp tools), preventing cross-contamination with warm soapy sink water, and adopting family-friendly safety systems like a dedicated sharps basket. Debra highlights favorite tools that replace visual cues with sound and touch (like a boil-alert disc and auto-measuring spout), plus methods for labeling and identification from low-tech (rubber bands) to higher-tech options (Be My Eyes, Aira, Meta smart glasses). The episode closes with a forward-looking note as Debra shares her hope to build more community and connection through cook-alongs and shared learning, so no one has to navigate blind cooking alone. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Dining with Donna, the podcast where we make cooking approachable, enjoyable, and accessible to everyone. I'm your host, Donna Jordan, and I am inviting you into my kitchen today to explore step by step recipes, smart kitchen hacks, and more meal ideas that fit real life. Whether you are cooking on a budget, planning a busy weeknight dinner, or preparing something special for family and friends, will focus on cooking with confidence without relying on sight, using sound, touch, aroma and simple tools that keep you safe and in control. So grab your apron, bring your curiosity, and let's get cooking. Debra Ericksen it is my privilege and my pleasure to welcome you to my podcast. Debra Erickson: Well, thank you for the kind introduction. I'm very excited to be here and to have this conversation with you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So let's get started, Debra, for listeners who are meeting you for the very first time, can you share your story of vision loss when you first notice symptoms when you were diagnosed and what that transition was like for you personally and professionally. Debra Erickson: Well, I was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa when I was 28, and I had just gone to the eye doctor to get a pair of glasses because I had astigmatism, a mild one since I was a child. Yeah. And when he looked in my eyes and said, I think you have an eye disease, and I want you to see a specialist, I couldn't have been more shocked. There was no history of vision loss in either side of my family. And I'm one of 12 children and there was absolutely no, no history. So I ended up going and it was confirmed. So my parents were recessive gene carriers, but I had no symptoms that I was aware of. Of course I had decreased peripheral vision and I had I knew I couldn't see very well in the dark, but how much can another person see in the dark? So I had no suspicion at all that I had a serious eye disease. And so, like many people who have RP, some people call it resistant people. That's what RP stands for. I tried to fake it as long as I could. I did not want to identify as blind. It just it wasn't part of my identity. And I came to the point where I couldn't anymore. I was falling down, getting hurt, knocking things over, apologizing to shopping carts. And so I done a lot of that. So I went to the Oregon Commission for the blind, and that's where I got my blind skills and started accepting that this was indeed part of who Debra Erickson was. And that included the word blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What a hard knock. Debra Erickson: You know, we've all got something. It's just this that nobody gets out of here without. Without stuff. So. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Let's talk about the heart of your mission. Your mission? That vision loss does not have to end your love of cooking. Okay. What do you say to someone who tells you quotation mark? I used to love cooking, but now I am afraid. Debra Erickson: Well, first of all, I relate to them. When I first took my me, my first meal prep class at the Oregon Commission for the blind, and I had to stand in front of a stove and they completely blindfolded me just to make sure I wasn't using my available vision so that I would get immersed in the whole experience. I was terrified, absolutely Terrified because I saw the little vision left and I. But but once it was taken away from me. So I know that fear. But my instructor was lovely and she was very calming and and had me helped me develop a trust in her. And so when people say they're afraid, I'm like, you're right to be afraid. That kitchen can be a very dangerous place. You can cut yourself. You can burn yourself. Yeah. You can, you can look clumsy, you know, you can look disorganized. It is a scary place. But if you have the right tools and techniques and information, you still can cook. You just have to do it differently. Because our world relies on vision, we have a very visual world. So when that is either eliminated or reduced significantly, things have to change. And that is part. And cooking is one of those things. You can do it, but you just have to do it differently. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And that's that's very true. I mean, I mean, I had functional vision up until about 20 years ago, and I had to readjust and thank God I had my mom alongside me to, you know, say to me, keep on going, girl, this is how you're going to do it from now on, you know, so I understand. Debra Erickson: Yeah. It's important to have, you know, some cheerleaders along the way because it can be pretty frustrating and pretty, you know, depressing. And so it's nice if you have support groups or some type of, of people along the way that can help you readjust your attitude when it needs it. Because we all need it occasionally. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We sure do. One thing that really stands out about The Blind Kitchen is your library of audio described instructional videos. How did you decide to invest so heavily in teaching content. And what do you think makes a cooking demo truly useful to someone who can't rely on sight? Debra Erickson: So when I was in culinary school, I had to solve a lot of problems. I was the only blind student, and so I would go on the internet at night and, you know, to study for the next day. How can I flip an egg? How can I know if this pan is centered on the stove? How can I, you know, measure things without wasting it because you get points deducted from you? And so I had to solve a lot of problems, and I can't tell you how frustrating it was to find a YouTube video with the perfect title. And then all of a sudden it's just music. I just wanted to pull my hair out. And that happens a lot, where you get the perfect title or the perfect video and it's not accessible to us. So when I started, when I was deciding on what The Blind Kitchen would be, it could be just a cooking show with a, you know, a twist on vision loss. Or it could be, you know, a podcast where I talk to other people with vision loss that like to cook. But but Donna, in my core, I'm a teacher and I that's that's who I, my most authentic person is. Debra Erickson: And so I decided it wouldn't be an entertaining website. It would be a teaching website where I could share the information that I had learned in my journey. I didn't create all of these systems and tools and things like that. A lot. I had a lot of teachers helping me to to learn how to solve different problems. And the Blind Kitchen became that place where instead of finding things in different places on the internet or on a blog or in an article, The Blind Kitchen became and the library specifically. So the tools Are the the bread and butter for The Blind Kitchen. That's how we pay our bills and keep keep the the website going. But the the the library is the heart of The Blind Kitchen. There are so many tips and tools and strategies. And there are like 12 different ways to label things from low tech to high tech. And so we discuss it. It depends on your wallet. It depends on your comfort with technology. So it's nice to have choices. And I just love the library in The Blind Kitchen. It really has grown immensely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you've had to invest a lot of time and finances in all of this, haven't you? Debra Erickson: I absolutely have you. We film in a in a professional studio, and so there's all the costs that go along with that. The script writing, the, you know, props and food, you know, things that are related to it. But I have a an excellent team and we just turned three in October. Where from where we opened our website doors. And so the growth has been pretty amazing. It was slow at first, but now all of a sudden it's it's been exponential. It's been quite the journey. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow I am impressed. Now you serve so many different learners kids, teens, adults who lost lost vision later in life. How does your teaching change depending on the age and life stage of the cook? And what are your best tips for families who want to teach a blind child how to cook with confidence? Debra Erickson: Okay, so each of those populations I would call that you mentioned each person has to be approached as an individual. They have a history. Some have cooked before and now they lost vision and they're not sure how to proceed. Others have never even been in a kitchen before. And I want to address the child thing. And I know this is a passion of yours as well. Yes, but they children with vision loss. The parents are amazing, but what they want to do is keep their kids out of the kitchen, many of them, because that's a dangerous place, you know, they can get cut and burned and it's their job to protect their children. But in end, there's no funding or or classes for for sighted parents of children with vision loss. I mean, I suppose there are some here and there, but it's not a thing at this point in time. So I actually am I it'll be it's my third one where I'm doing a zoom presentation to school districts, and the target audience is not the visually impaired children, it's the parents of visually impaired children. So the the child accompanies them or the young adult. And then I teach different ways that the parents can make their kitchen accessible. Introduce them to tools. So if they have a child as young as three, can use some of my tools safely to cut up bananas, to cut up the slicer that that can't cut their skin, but it can cut through a banana. Debra Erickson: And I have quite a few tools like that, but the but the parents just don't know how. And so I and the other thing is, is a lot of people think it's very expensive to renovate a kitchen to make it accessible. And then what happens to the people that can see the notification? How are they going to manage. So but these are ways that they I teach them ways they can mark their flat screen, you know appliances and things like that with, like, maybe a bump dot or maybe a halo or maybe, you know, different, different inexpensive, low tech. And the people in the family that can see can still use it. It's just very it's remarkably easy. But if you don't have the information, you can't be expected to just know it. And so this the course is called The Kitchen is for everyone. And so the the parents are supplied with a certain amount of tools. And then I go through and teach them the different tools, how their kids can use them, but also things that they can do that have nothing to do with, with tools specifically to make their kitchens accessible for their child with vision loss. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this is absolutely amazing because when I think back and I have I had sighted parents. I know that my mom and my granny were petrified to let me into the kitchen. Absolutely. No, you can't do you can't even lift a dishcloth, you know. But I was very determined to ensure that I got in there and that I learned how to cook. And eventually I convinced them, you know, so it takes a lot of work. Debra Erickson: It does, because parents are so protective and well-meaning, and that's how they love their children, is to protect them. But if you can give them an alternative route where they can still love and protect their children and help them make their way towards becoming independent adults, that's a better answer. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. Now, you also emphasize smart systems for safety, like, you know, like what to do with knives in the sink and how to avoid surprise cuts. Can you share a few of your most effective safety routines that listeners can adopt immediately? Debra Erickson: Yeah, so the first thing I think is to have a safe, clean, predictable work area. And I we can talk about that if you want to go into it. But there's a couple of things people can do immediately. If you are cooking with vision loss and you're using a cutting board or a work tray or whatever, and let's say you're fabricating chicken or or cracking eggs or whatever, and now your fingers have some bacteria on them. It's just chicken juice right now, but it will if it's at room temperature for any length of time. Cross-contamination can occur because harmful bacteria can grow. So if you're going to wash off your fingers and you touch your counter, you reach over. You make sure the faucets in the right place, you reach over and turn on the water control. Grab the soap dispenser and now you rinse your hands. Well, you've got to go back and disinfect all of those areas because you got juice on them. So one thing that people can do, and I think this is great for sighted cooks as well, is run a couple of inches of soapy hot water in the in the bottom of one of your sink or in a dish pan. And that way when I go, my fingers are messy and when I need to wash them so I can either use my forearms or the back of my hands if there's no, you know, contaminants on them, and then I can find my way to the sink and just immediately plunge my hands in that hot, soapy water. Debra Erickson: And so now I now I can reach for the soap or whatever or the, you know, turn it on and nothing. I don't have to go back and decontaminate things. And plus, if I'm, let's say I'm using a measuring cup or measuring spoon and I'm done with it, I can just put it in that water. And I've already started my cleanup. And the reason you only do a couple of inches is because as a blind cook, I'm slower now. I have to be very thoughtful. And so when that water can become cold over time. And that's pretty disgusting to put your hands in cold water. So then I just have to turn on the faucet, run some more hot water into it. It's going to it's going to revive the suds, and it's going to raise the temperature of the water to be pleasant again. And I'm I'm on my way. I don't have to redo everything. Just add a couple of inches. So that is one way another safety tip that for a mixed family especially, or people, you know, where you have someone, some that can see and maybe someone that can't is that we sell something called Sharps Basket, but you can use any container that makes sense for you. Debra Erickson: And they're, they're basically like drawer organizers, elongated. And so if I have scissors, if I have a knife, if I have anything, A peeler that could potentially cut people. They are parked in that box at my work where I'm working at. There's also an identical one at the sink. So if I am using a knife and now I'm cutting up that chicken, I really don't have time to clean the knife and put it away. I can just take it and carry it over to the sink and drop it in that basket. And I know when I get near those baskets, I've got to slow down and be careful. And the whole family knows. And so that way, oh, I can't even tell you how mad the chefs at culinary school would get when they'd find a knife in the bottom of a sink. Anybody could cut themselves. You can't see through soapy water. And so this way, all the sharps are in a predictable location until you have the time to clean them properly and put them in there and put them away. And no one's in danger then, but the family has to make an agreement and adopt it and use it consistently. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A lot of it is common sense, would you say? Debra Erickson: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, one of the I think the strengths of The Blind Kitchen is in its simplicity. I'm not I'm not handing you smart speakers or making you do, you know, complicated gestures and stuff on your iPhone. Mostly it's just learning to use simple tools that can achieve a task safely and often attractively, which can be a challenge as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And these, for the most part, are are low tech tools, would you say? Debra Erickson: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So Yeah. No, they're talking thermometers. That helps food safety as well, because you don't want to undercook serve someone an undercooked piece of chicken or seafood. Yeah. So that's another safety device. But in The Blind Kitchen, we keep things simple, and. But we also present more complex things that people can research on their own, such as way around, which is a tagging system, a labeling system that works through an app on your phone, and you have to buy their special tags. But it's a beautiful system. But but people, can we tell them about it? But we're not going to be the ones to teach it or sell it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Okay. Can you explain a few of your most loved tools in plain practical terms, something like how something that rattles when water boils or a spout that dispenses a precise amount replaces visual cues with sound and touch. Debra Erickson: So you've mentioned two of our most popular. The one is the boil alert disk that when you put it in the bottom of a pan and the water reaches 212 degrees and starts to boil, It rattles because the bubbles that form at that temperature force it to rattle. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I got. Debra Erickson: One. You have one. Yes I do. I love mine. And the other thing is, you know, I'm sure Cavewomen and cavemen were able to boil water at some point in time, but they needed to be near it. And you, if you can boil water, you can be near it. You can feel the pan vibrate. You can hover your hands above it, feel the steam. But what I can do without boil alert disc is be across the room and know exactly what's happening in that pan. Right. And that that's that's I love that. And then the, the auto measure spout is the spout that dispenses exactly one tablespoon of liquid or oil, and then it stops, even if you're still holding it upside down. It's magic. It works. And it doesn't know power. It's just works with magnets and steel ball bearings. The. So there are other ones like how to measure wet liquids, especially things like vanilla and stuff without waste. And how do you know you got it right? So we have a wet measure spoon system that comes with a little. Basically you put the spoon is shaped like a ladle. That's the key to this because that's how we transfer liquids in our society efficiently is with a ladle. Debra Erickson: And so we use that same idea for smaller amounts of liquids. We have a liquid dropper in bottles. Like if you're doing hot sauce, one thing you you're encouraged to do when you can see is just to shake the hot sauce. And you can kind of look and see the drops that fall on there, and you stop when you think you've had enough. If you can't see it, you don't have that option. You want to. You want to be careful about how much you're dispensing. And so this is this is just it's a little kind of like eyedropper. But of course, it's not an eyedropper, but a medicine dropper, but it measures exactly one quarter teaspoon of liquid. And then you can dispense that into pan, stir it, taste it. Oh, nope. We need a little bit more, but it allows you to be very precise and and have control over how much of that liquid that's very flavorful. Liquid smokes. Another thing, you don't want to overdo that, but you can. But you drop it into the pan. You're doing it in manageable amounts. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I didn't know about that one, but that sounds interesting. Debra Erickson: It's handy. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For a listener who's who is newly blind or newly low vision. What are the first three practical changes you recommend making in the kitchen to reduce stress and increase safety right away? Debra Erickson: So the first thing I would suggest people to do is to set up a safe and comfortable work area and predictable. Predictability is huge. So the first thing is a work tray and you can use what it is, is basically a larger than average cafeteria tray or school tray. I use those for everything, so I have that in front of me. When I start to work, I run my sink or soapy water. That's that's the first thing. I have my sharps basket at the top of the work tray, not on the work tray, but but above it. Then I have what I call a scraps bowl to the left of it, so that if I have eggshells or or if I'm, I use the cutting board, the work trays as cutting boards to, or if I have peels, or if I have, you know, anything that I need packaging that I need to discard. I don't have to go across the room to the garbage can or anything like that. I can just drop it in there. So in my work area, everything is predictable and that gives me a it makes me calmer because I know where things are at, and I can have another work tray to the side of that on which I put the ingredients for the cookies. Debra Erickson: I'm going to make. That way I know I have what I need and I can put it away as I go. So that's one thing, is to have a predictable work area that works for you. The other thing I would recommend is to find a way to identify and label foods in closed containers that you can't smell or taste or, you know, like two cans of soup. And that can be as simple as putting a rubber band on one can of soup, like let's have cream of mushroom and cream of chicken soup. You can't tell the difference. They weigh the same, they sound the same. They smell the same. So I, I use, I can use be my eyes or IRA or my meta smart glasses or ask my husband, what is this and what is this? And then I put the rubber band on the cream of mushroom. And the reason I do that is because cream of mushroom has a R rubber band. Chicken doesn't have an R, so even if I go back six months later, I assigned meaning to that rubber band. And and so there are many ways to find out what's in closed containers. And there are as many ways to label them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And, you know, there are so many things you can use these like IRA, be my eyes, the meta glasses, you know, like, you know, have your choice, right? Debra Erickson: I use them all. I use them all. I, I know I should be afraid of it, but it is a very powerful, helpful tool, especially for describing your environment or reading what's on a package to you. It's not perfect. No technology is, but it is really a game changer for people with vision loss. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Not knife safety is a huge concern for many blind cooks. What are the specific techniques that you teach for cutting and shopping Safely, especially for someone who feels anxious about sharp tools. So me? Debra Erickson: Yeah. Well, so that anxiety is serves a purpose. It tells you you could get hurt here. So noting the anxiety and overcoming it if. But you have to be confident in the tools that you have. And we've got a couple of things I'll give you. Like we have a cut resistant glove, we call it a cut glove. And I literally can put my hand palm up wearing the glove and run a sharp knife back and forth across my palm. And I can feel the pressure and I can feel the movement, but I never, ever get cut. And it works. What the way it works is, it's first of all, it's very cut resistant, although it is thin and flexible, a little bit stretchy. But when I'm cutting, if all of a sudden I feel contact between the knife or the tool and my fingers holding the food. I'm just going to stop. And then that way I. If I weren't wearing the glove by the time my brain would have registered. Oh, something's wrong down there. You made contact. It would have been too late. So it can be as simple as that. But I'll tell you some of the aspects about the tools that we have. So one one characteristic found in a lot of the cutting and chopping tools are that they have a serrated edge, or they might have pointy, jagged teeth. Debra Erickson: You know, almost all my much of my stuff is made with stainless steel and it's sharp enough to fabricate the food, but not sharp enough to cut your skin. And that is true of several of the tools, the avocado tool and the. We have a corncob remover, corncob cleaner. It takes it off. And the other thing that that happens in The Blind Kitchen is that we have tools where the blades exist in a cone or a tube where your fingers cannot make contact with the blades when it's being used properly and set up like one of those, we have a chopper tool that lets you push up and down on a spring loaded handle, and then so those blades are sharp and they are doing the work you want it to do. We also have like a peeler. So the other aspect of tools found in The Blind Kitchen is that it lets your fingers be close to the action without being in the food. So like the avocado tool, it number one reason for emergency visits related to food are avocado tools and or avocado cuts. Debra Erickson: So you this it's shaped like a triangle. It's got a serrated edge. It's sharp enough to cut the skin of the avocado, but not sharp enough to cut your skin. Then at the point of it, it has jagged little teeth. Again, part of this, it's only one piece of stainless steel, but they're jagged and they can get under that seed and help you pry it out. And then the third thing is, is that it's angled a little bit curved. And it does a beautiful job of scooping out the the avocado food from the, from the skin. Other things are that we have a finger guard where if you're cutting and you're nervous, it's, it's a about the size stainless steel, about the size of a credit card. And it has two rings on the back of it. And you put your finger through the rings. So now when you're curling your hand like a bear claw, that stainless steel is between your blade and your fingers. It a knife can't cut through stainless steel. Right. So it gives you the confidence until at some point, maybe you'll be ready to just perform that same task with a cut glove. But that's Yeah, that's a good thing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. You got a lot of tools there for me to look at. Debra Erickson: We do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, before The Blind Kitchen, you were teaching cooking to blind and low vision adults as an instructor. What did you notice that your students needed most? Tools, technique, confidence, or permission to try again? Debra Erickson: Well, it it depended on the student and their cooking experience and their blindness experience. If you've been blind from birth, you're going to have a different way of approaching the world than if you just lost your vision due to macular degeneration. So again, you meet the person where they're at. But I think for most people, mostly they needed confidence. They needed to trust that they could do these tasks safely. So even students that were blind from birth and I would have I was working for voc rehab. So these were high school graduates, so they could be 18, 19, 20 years old. Many of them had never been in the kitchen. They hadn't been allowed. So I'm their first introduction. But they. But the other thing I had, which was wonderful, is they were all motivated. They chose to take my class so it wasn't like they were forced to. And that's a big difference. If you don't want to cook, don't cook, you know, don't come here. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So so I had motivated students but the, the had been told all their lives you're going to get cut, you're going to get burned. Don't go in that room. It's the most dangerous room. But I would argue it's the most powerful room in terms of serving others and dishing out, you know, showing your love and and with nutritious, delicious meals. Debra Erickson: And so the the answer to that is they had to they needed confidence to get started. And then then later the tools and techniques came in. But I had to the first thing I always did was to use an oven. Ovens are a little less daunting than stovetops because even though ovens are hot, once you close the door, there's a feeling of safety that comes over you with the stovetop. There's still exposure and noises and stuff. So I the way I develop trust was I would say, okay, we're going to I'm going to show you what a stove looks like. We touched the broiler while it's off, of course. And I tell them I'm turning this on until you give me permission to turn it on. And so people had never seen the inside of a of an oven. They had no idea how it worked about the racks, the pullout and all that. And so I never had a student that did not safely pull either veggie burgers or bacon that we baked in the oven out of the oven safely on the first lesson, everybody did it. Never had one fail, but some took longer than others. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, yeah, because they were intimidated or. Debra Erickson: Absolutely. Yeah yeah, yeah. And it's important to notice that you've got to pay attention to your body signals. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Wow. Park is starting to wind down, but I got this question for you. What was missing in the world of blind cooking resources when you started? Why wasn't it enough to have mattered? Tips online and what did you want to build that didn't exist yet? Debra Erickson: Okay, at my core, I am a teacher and I cannot believe how many hours I spent trying to find information in all these little pockets, jewels and nuggets that that came out of it. And so with the Blind Kitchen, I wanted it to be a one stop place. Whether you bought things or you just were looking for information. That's why I made all my videos available to everyone. You don't have to pay to go behind a paywall to see the videos. They're available to anyone. Right? And and the tips and techniques. And I just wanted it to be organized with vision loss. If you can become more organized, even if you were disorganized, when you could see your life is going to be so much better. And that's what the Blind kitchen was. It has categories of information and tools that have to do with each of the cooking methods grilling and barbecuing dining out, accessing and reading recipes different techniques such as cutting and chopping. We have a cutting series on there that tells, depending on the kind of food you're trying to cut, how to do it cleaning, organizing, labeling, identifying all of that stuff had to be it was it took me a while to figure out a framework for it, but culinary school helped with that. And so that that is what I wanted is an organized, predictable place of information that people with vision loss or that know people with vision loss, because there's a lot of agencies that help people with vision loss learn to cook. Debra Erickson: There's a lot of families who there, they don't there. So let's say they have the grandmother used to be the, you know, the one that did the holiday meal or the Hanukkah or, you know, Thanksgiving. And now, because of vision loss, she's sitting on the couch watching a football game. She doesn't even care about it. And she can hear the activity in the kitchen going on. And, you know, it's kitchen's a fun place to be when you got family. You're sharing history and tips and all this stuff. So I wanted and they don't identify as blind or visually impaired. And that's a big chunk of the baby boomers that are losing their vision over time. And they don't. But they could use the information in The Blind Kitchen to solve some of their problems. Not every problem. Not everyone is completely blind. In fact, most of us have varying degrees of light perception and and clarity. And so the Blind kitchen ended up being a place where people could go and find the information they need in an organized way. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear the passion in your voice and I think like being a teacher and one who is determined to remove barriers to the kitchen, it sure helps a lot doesn't it. Debra Erickson: It does, it does. It was a natural fit actually. I had to learn it and then and I still I discovered I really loved cooking in culinary school. And so yeah, so it was it was a natural fit. And, you know, somebody once told me. Find. Find something you like to do and then find a way to get paid for it. And I think I found. Yeah. Yeah. I think just like you. Yeah. You know, it's like, I like doing this. I can reach people. People seem to respond. And so I feel very lucky to have made that connection. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And my final question of the day Debra what's next for The Blind Kitchen. Where what's next for you. Where are you going. What are you hoping to achieve. You've done so very much. I mean I'm just blown out of my mind with everything here. What's next for you? Debra Erickson: Yeah. Good question. So the a problem I want to solve. So a lot of people, when they have vision loss, become isolated. Transportation becomes a thing. Finances become a thing. And sometimes it's just easier just to stay at home. But, you know, and so I would like to build some type of community around people with vision loss who like to cook. Now I have I know it exists in the world because I do. The ACB community calls once a month, and those people and people come to it, and I've seen friendships form because of it. So maybe it'll be cook alongs, maybe it'll be like a zoom link where I send out, here's all the ingredients, let's cook together and we can talk. Have someone manage the communications. I'm not quite sure how to do it. The other thing would be to perhaps do a podcast. We have a ton of material. We have so much content that we've already done. But right now I'm just going to stay in my lane. I've got about ten more tools. I want to get on the shelves and, and make videos for and that kind of thing. But that but creating community in some way. I would love to do that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's a great idea. I think creating community communities builds confidence. It starts Friendships. It really does a lot. It goes a very, very long way. And there are no barriers to the world, really. I mean, you can use zoom, you can use podcasts, you can use anything really. Debra Erickson: No, you are exactly right. And when I am in, I'm when I'm in this, this call with you, I feel like I'm with you. I feel like we're connecting at a heart level. It's not an artificial thing. And I feel it when I'm doing my presentations and somebody comes up with a problem or a challenge that they have, I can hear it in their voice. Oh, that's all I have to do. And it's very refreshing to hear that because it's like, oh, I just, you know, I hope I just made their day a little better. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It has been a privilege and a pleasure to have had you on my podcast. And I'd like to invite you back at any time you think you want to spread the word about anything. And if there's anything I can do to help you spread the message, I don't think there's much more I can do because, you know, you have it all under your your thumbs, right? Debra Erickson: Well, there's always more that can be done. Always more so. And you have a quite a diverse background, different than mine in terms of the legal and and things like that. So if you know, you never know what another person has in their, their toolbox, that that could help you because I don't know your world and, and I say that to any of the listeners as well. If they have any ideas, I'm always open. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So I want to invite you to come back anytime you think you would like to. I'd like to help you spread the message. And I want to thank you for having been on my podcast. Debra Erickson: Thank you for having me. It's really been a pleasure. I've enjoyed our conversation immensely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thanks, Deborah. And you take care. Debra Erickson: You too. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye bye. Debra Erickson: Bye for now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Podcast Commentator: Thank you so much for listening. That's a wrap for this episode of Dining with Donna. Donna wants to hear from you. What did you cook? What worked and what would you like to learn next? Share your favorite accessible kitchen tips. Send in a recipe request or tell us the kitchen challenge you like Donna to tackle on an upcoming episode. And if today's show helped you feel more confident cooking without relying on sight, please share it with a friend and leave a review. Your support helps more listeners find their way into the kitchen. Until next time, keep it simple, keep it safe, and keep it delicious.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #75: Interview with Richard Marion, Accessibility Professional | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-02-12-2026/ In this thought-provoking episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes longtime mentor and friend Richard Marion ("Rich") for a wide-ranging conversation about disability advocacy, inclusive transit, and what real accessibility looks like in daily life. Richard shares how his work has evolved over roughly 35 years, spanning behind-the-scenes advocacy, peer support around access technology (especially mobile devices), and a deep focus on public transit accessibility through multiple roles with TransLink, including years on its Access Transit Committee. He also reflects on how identifying as Métis and as a member of the LGBTQ+ community has shaped his equity work and broadened how he brings disability issues into other communities, while continuing to center lived experience and practical solutions. Donna and Richard dive into specific, street-level changes that make systems usable, most notably TransLink's system-wide rollout of Braille and tactile bus-stop signage (which Richard helped technically advise, down to ensuring Unified English Braille conventions and fixing real-world dot/spacing issues as materials changed). They explore common mistakes agencies make, consulting too late, treating "accessibility" as wheelchair-only, and overlooking the needs of Deaf riders, neurodivergent riders, and people with sensory disabilities, alongside the "make-or-break" features for blind travelers (tactile cues, clear faregate tap points, reliable audio/wayfinding, and human assistance when needed). Richard also unpacks the promise and limits of high-tech tools (GPS shines; camera-based wayfinding often struggles outdoors; smart glasses and services like Be My Eyes can be powerful but aren't always seamless), arguing that low-tech, always-there design must remain the foundation, especially as cities introduce complex street redesigns like floating/island bus stops near bike lanes. The episode closes with Richard's "what's next" (more accessible arts and travel), a nod to his leadership history in the blindness community, and a direct message to younger advocates: social media helps, but lasting change still comes from organized, in-person community advocacy and advisory work. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just recited once. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to Turin, equal access into federal law, and most recently on June 3rd, 2022. I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or in a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guests. A changemaker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Richard Marion, aka Rich. It is my pleasure and my privilege to welcome you to my podcast. Welcome. Richard Marion: Thank you Donna, it's great to be here. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just want to let listeners know that Richard has played an enormous part in my advocacy life, from when I met him in 2010 and to now. Richard continues to be my mentor, my advisor, my very good friend, and I want to thank you, Richard, for having personally guided me through a lot of lumps and bumps. But now we want to hear about you. So, Richard, for listeners meeting you for the first time, how do you usually describe who you are and the work that you do, especially at the intersection of transit technology and disability advocacy? Richard Marion: I think it depends on the audience. So like I generally, I generally say I've been a long time advocate for in the disability community. I work on a number of issues. And and that I have been done, done a lot of work behind the scenes on many, many different projects. Some would say I've probably been the the Jack or Jane of all trades and master of none, but because I've done a lot of different things over the years. But more recently I've, I've worked on like the, the intersection of, as you mentioned, transit and technology and and and getting around. So I've been and, and and so I've mainly been focusing on public transit accessibility and my role in, in advisory role and a staffing role for the for three, over three years at TransLink over the last six years and and then also on technology, making websites more accessible and helping people learn more doing a lot of peer tutoring, helping people learn more about their their access technology, specifically mobile devices these days, it seems. And and so I would say that I've my, my work in the community has been has been multifaceted and and that that I it it it it has resulted in in my contribution to a number of achievements in the community, like my contribution might be, might not be large on its own, but it's contributed to the overall sort of increase in accessibility. Things have definitely changed over the 35 year or 40 years that I've been involved in advocacy. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 40 years. That's a very long time. Richard Marion: 35, actually. Yeah. 35 ish. Yeah, yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my goodness. Now, as a metis person and a member of the I have to pronounce this properly here, the l b g forgive me here. Richard Marion: To LGBTQ. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Plus community. Oh my goodness, it. Richard Marion: Doesn't it doesn't roll off the tongue that easily, so like. Yeah. Anyways, finish your question. Sorry about. Richard Marion: That. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's okay. How have your identities informed your approach to accessibility, inclusion and community leadership? Richard Marion: So my identity identifying as Metis and and being part of the LGBTQ plus community has been more recent in my life. I, I actually only came out it's going to be. 17 years ago this year. So it's it's really, really less the than half of my life. Really. And then my Métis identification. I only was granted citizenship in 2019. So but it's been it's been part of my life, obviously, since I was very young, like I remember doing things with my grandparents and when I was 9 or 10 years old, not thinking anything about the significance of it until I started going through family history and registering as a citizen of British Columbia. So I guess the short answer to your question is that it's what it's done is I've been I've been able to sort of bring disability issues forward into indigenous communities and specifically the Métis community. And and then also because my primary I still say my primary ID is a person with disability and specifically someone that's blind as well, too. And and then it's it's allowed me to Learn more about the culture of being Métis and then also how that impacts the people that are part of the LGBTQIA+ community. So I've done some of that other work. Equity work more about doing the equity work itself, like improving the the standing of the of the of the LGBTQ plus community within the Métis Nation of British Columbia and then also representing in indigenous people on accessibility communities committees, specifically the Richmond Accessibility Committee. So but generally with especially in urban environments, accessibility issues are pretty are pretty much the same. And we I tend to mainly draw on what the indigenous communities would call colonial colonial solutions and still have to learn more about what would what would be more appropriate in in indigenous communities. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You are very much multifaceted and a multitasker. And I have, you know, it's very, very impressive. Richard, I, I didn't even know that you were a T or part Metis until 2019. You hid that from me. All right. So you've worked with TransLink in multiple contract periods over several years. What keeps pulling you back to transit accessibility work and what kind of progress have you seen over time? Richard Marion: I think the thing that pulls me back and not just not not just as a staff member, but as an advisory committee member, I've been on the TransLink Access Transit Committee off off and on since it started in 2008. But I think what pulls me back to it is, is the is is making it easier and more comfortable for people disabilities to utilize the public transit system. And a more accessible, inclusive public transit system just makes a better community overall as well. So improving accessibility on buses, not just for people using mobility devices, but also making it more schedules easier to understand, providing better wayfinding information along the way, providing accessible sign accessible destination information for people who are blind. That's going to make it better for everybody. And I think you improve the public transit system. You just increase the opportunities for people with disabilities in the community. Like it makes the big difference from having accessible transit makes a big difference from someone saying potentially, especially in a large city between getting a job and not or and not being able to take it because they can't get there. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very true. Richard Marion: Yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Can you walk me through the braille and tactile bus stop signage initiative. What the goal was, what your role was as a technical advisor and what? That kind of system wide change materials to blind writers. Writers. I'm sorry. Richard Marion: I think it's huge. So the to summarize, the the bus stop accessibility project was so we transit was the first transit agency in North America to do a system wide rollout of, of accessible signage for, for people that are blind or partially sighted. And it the signage involves Braille and large tactile raised print as well too. So it's it's huge. And so what it does do is it gives people options for looking at least knowing what buses stop at a stop, or that they are located at a bus stop as well without using technology as well to just it just provides the same getting closer to pride in the same range of options as the sighted public has for when they're out on the street. So the work that I did on it was when when we were at the early implementation stages, working with the signage contractor and the project manager to make sure that we were formatting the braille correctly and using the right configuration, or for size of dots on the signage as well. So it was because the the, the, the terms of the project indicated that we had to do the signage in unified English Braille. And so I just made I worked with the signage contractors to make sure that they were following the conventions of UEB. Richard Marion: I consulted with other experts in the field that, frankly, a lot of ways know more about UEB than I do. But but I was the on site person that actually looked at signs, samples and said, yeah, this will work. And no, this won't work. And and, and then we and then ultimately landed on something that we rolled out over in, out in the city. We did have to partway through when we started doing the implementation because we had we didn't realize when we changed the sign, the the actual material that the signs were being printed on that the, the style of Braille dots changed slightly in the manufacturing process. And, and it really wasn't until a field review, until other people that were looking at the signs there saying, well, the Braille is a little harder to read. So we had to do a bit of a pivot and space the dots further apart because the samples we looked at initially were, were, were had a more pointed dot. And for those that read Braille, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Richard Marion: Like, yeah. Richard Marion: And and and what was happening is when we changed the, the actual material, the braille dots became more rounded. So we the, the the the the standard for the closeness of dots for indoor signage that we were using on the outdoor signage didn't really work. And so we had to space a more further, a little further apart. So for those that are familiar with it, the spacing is a little more closer to what you see with Braille and print on paper now. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess Braille has changed immensely like the format of Braille over the years, right? Richard Marion: Yeah. It has. Like when I first learned Braille, we were dealing with the Nemeth Code for mathematics and science notation and grade, and then and then North American Braille or US Braille, which is in grade one and two. Now it's just now it's just universal English Braille contracted uncontracted. And the mathematical braille code is all part of it as well, too. So it's it's totally different. The only the only part that's that's still not part of the actual literary code or the or the or the unified code is computer Braille is still its own thing. And Braille music notation is still its own thing as well too. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh thank goodness. Richard Marion: Yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: From your experience, what are the most common mistakes that transit organizations make when designing accessibility features and what should they be doing differently from day one? Richard Marion: I think from day one, they have to involve people with disabilities right from the beginning is close to the beginning as possible. Like, you know, because it's nothing about us without us. And and so the common mistake they make is they, they they they and it's getting better, but they'll, they'll, they'll kind of go through the exercise of checking the boxes, and then all of a sudden they realize, oh, we forgot to consult with people with disabilities all the time. Sometimes by the time they do it, they're already at the 80 to 90% designed like a design stage. And it's too late for a lot of a lot of the changes. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Richard Marion: Sometimes it's there are times when it's too early in the process, too, because because if you're way too early in the process, the information you might be receiving as an advocate is really meant for people that really have the knowledge and technical skill to actually advise architects and engineers in their language. And so in that case, you are then you're looking for a more specific skill set of people with disabilities that actually have expertise in those areas. And they do exist, especially nowadays with, with so much more focus on involving people with disabilities in, in public transit decisions. It's getting it's getting better that we all that we, that we can kind of speak their language more so than we used to. Then then the other most common mistake is they, they're still I think it's and it's and again, it's getting better is still assuming accessibility means accessibility for people using wheelchairs and forgetting about other mobility devices or other disabilities, people with people that have sensory disabilities, like the the deaf community still has a still has a long way to go in a lot of cases as well, too. They don't get the same level of information on a bus as, say, I do, for example, because the they might have a visual side, but they wouldn't know when an emergency is happening because there's no there's nothing on that side to indicate why. Richard Marion: What's why the why this train has stopped, for example, or why the bus drivers stopped in the middle of the road? Because there's nothing to sort of system unless someone unless someone knows sign language and they could tell them, tell a person. Look, we got to we got to go because the bus is being evacuated, for example. Yeah, it's a bit different in that sense. And then people would people with for lack of a better term, hidden disabilities and people that have that are neurodivergent the transit agencies don't are just starting to grasp some of the accessibility challenges, like, you know, sensory, sensory, reduced spaces in, in transit stations and things like that. And and, and and they still transit agencies still have to do a lot, I think do a lot of staff training on, sensitivity and how to de-escalate situations because, you know, people that are neurodivergent sometimes what we might not, might react, might have a minor reaction to they could have a major reaction. And the staff have to have the skill to de-escalate something that could turn into a major conflict point. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very true. Yeah. I am also blind, so I have to ask, what are the real make or break features that determines whether a transit system feels navigable and safe for someone who uses a cane or a guide dog? Richard Marion: So the, the things that for me, that would, would, would be like obviously like the, the the other part of our accessible signage product is tactile walking surface Indicators at the ground. On the ground where the bus stop poles are. So then you get you get a sense of, okay, I'm approaching a bus stop pole because there's, there's there's tactile. T.w. on the ground near the pole. In transit stations, especially big transit stations directional tiles, like like, like wayfinding tiles. So you can follow a path, maybe from the entrance to stairs or an elevator or to the faregates accessible accessible gates in the sense that gates that clearly you can clearly tell where you need to tap a payment card, because every transit system is going to a smart card and every every subway, slash LRT or light metro system are going to faregate systems. And so you need to know, okay, you need to have a good idea instead of sort of waving your hands around where exactly you would tap your card. So. And to know when the gates opened as well to staff to assist you like we like. I don't know about any other transit system that does this very that extensively in Canada. I know it does happen, but TransLink has you can call for VIP assistance on the Skytrain. Richard Marion: And they'll assist you to, to to the, to a train at your departure station and then from the train at your arrival station, and you just have to give them ten minutes warning. So like if, like when I've used it, I've, I've, if I, if I'm going to a station I'm not familiar with, I just call them when I'm getting on the train at the station I am familiar with. And then there's always someone there to meet me. And then and then they, they, they can offer whatever level of assistance I'm looking for. And a lot of cases, I have a dog, so it's just someone to follow through the station station out to the entrance and. But. Yeah, that's and then just accessible, like accessible information, like, in the sense of schedules and being able to sort of call in and get get trip planning info as well too. And as well. And then the other part, the elephant in the room is making sure that and I'm sure, I'm sure listeners to your podcast will know exactly making sure that bus that they're not using floating bus stops or what? Or what they call island platform bus stops and and discouraging, discouraging the installation of bus routes along separated bike lanes. For example. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: One of the floating bus stop. Richard Marion: A floating bus stop is it's not it's it's not actually floating in the water. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Richard Marion: There are sometimes in Vancouver, people might think they're floating in the water when it's raining, but so what it is, is, is, is is the the bus stop itself. So the shelter and the bus pool are out in the street beside. So you if you're walking down a pedestrian sidewalk, you would come to a designated crossing point, and you would actually cross a separated bike lane out into the street where onto another island. So now they're changing the term. They're starting to call them island platform bus stops, because that that's more representative of what what it what it actually is, I guess. And so and then you, you you the bus stop is out in this lane between the bike lane and the traffic. So a similar it's kind of similar to streetcar platforms in Toronto or, or LRT platforms that are out in the middle of the street. It's like that. But in those cases, the lane you're crossing a lot of times is an actual traffic lane with vehicles which are which are easier to hear approaching, whereas bikes aren't. So the, the bus stops beside floating beside bike lanes has been a has been a major accessibility challenge for for people who are blind because we can't hear the bikes approaching and we can't definitely can't see them. And so if there's no if there's no safety measures to slow the bikes down, or to make sure to ensure that we know that we're actually traversing the bike lane before we get to the bus stop. It can cause it could potentially cause some major issues for, for people with disabilities or specifically in this case, people who are notification for. Richard Marion: Yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've also evaluated technology based wayfinding tools from your own perspective. Where do smartphone based systems genuinely shine and where do they fall short for real world independence? Richard Marion: I think they generally shine like if you're using GPS mapping that like if you're using Like what? Like what's the new Google Maps Explorer now? Something. But if you're using like, like the equivalent to Google Maps or an accessible version of any mapping thing for GPS wayfinding. They're great. And where it the other wayfinding methods like using products that where you have to point your camera at like at some sort of some sort of code out on a pole, for example, or they still fall short there. In my opinion. Because it, it does require you to have good knowledge of your phone and you have to keep your phone out as well, too. They work. I think those systems work best in indoor environments as well. To when transit did a study of of a wayfinding product. And I'm not sure if we're allowed to name names, product names here, but it was well, they're they published a report, so they, they did a we research project with Navy lens and the with in the outdoor environments where they tried it, they there was a lot of a lot of issues, like with the with with people's phone cameras not picking up the right sign to guide them to it. And then also depending on the lighting conditions, like if there was a lot of direct sunlight, the the phone cameras couldn't actually read the actual lens code. So code. So products like Navy Lens and good maps Explorer like things like that where they're, where they're using the camera to find codes that sort of point you in the right direction. Richard Marion: They probably work best indoors. And I think the, the transit systems that have done more experimenting, experimenting with indoor environments have had better luck than than we did here when we did the six month project here. Here. So it I think that's where the that those types of technology are going to shine. The other technical piece that's that really has been a game changer are the smart glasses. Because now you can you can now you can put something on your head. You don't have to carry your phone around. And you can ask. Ask them for information. And they're getting better. There they are. They literally daily I think they're getting better at determining things like if you ask it, what's in front of me? If you're standing in front of a sign, they'll tell you what it is. And a lot of times be able to read you what's on that sign as well, too. It's it's as well. So that's where that technology is going to, is going to help, but it's technology. And so I still in my advocacy role still look, think low tech solutions have to be part of the mix as well too, because there's still a large population of people who are blind that that may not even own the appropriate smartphones to to run all this stuff, because it does require the almost the most modern phones to do it. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is it difficult to learn how to use the meta glasses? Richard Marion: No, not really, not from my opinion. It was you it there's there's there's lots of information online. There's some YouTube videos from from various accessibility experts on how to get started with it as well. And even when you put them on, it gives you a good idea of there's a, there's a, there's a help guide. You can you can read and it gives you sort of it gives you suggestions of what questions you can ask them and as well and, and what answers you can expect as well. In the accessibility settings in the meta glasses. Now you can change, you can tell it that you're blind. Tell them you're blind and you want and you want more detailed descriptions. You can you can activate the the BMI service on them. And so and so you can just say, basically say, hey, meta, be my eyes. And also you're connected with a live agent like IRA has a connection to meta as well too, but it's a bit more complicated and does require a bit more skill because they their connection has to be linked through WhatsApp and Richard Marion: And. Richard Marion: So it it's a bit, for lack of a better term. It seems to be the term I use. It's a bit clunky because it does require a couple extra steps to do it, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Like the last time I had to use that particular navigation aid when I was looking for the passport office at, of all places I and I couldn't make the connection with IRA, so I ended up basically doing the doing the call with my phone camera and waving my phone in front of me while I was walking down the street looking for the right building. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Must have been a bit hairy for you Richard Marion: Yes and no, but I've I've I've done, I've done the virtual assistants work that way before. And so for those that don't know, be my eyes and IRA are actually live people like there. So there are people sitting in front of a computer or whatever actually viewing the live feed from your phone's camera. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is starting to wind down. But I have this question for you. How do you strike the right balance between high tech accessibility solutions and low tech, always there solutions? Okay, like tactile cues, Braille and strong audio announcements. Richard Marion: I still think the balance should lean in favor of low as because I kind of touched on that a bit earlier. I think the balance should always lean in favor of low tech solutions, because everybody can use some form of low tech solution, because high tech still does involve you having some sort of personal device. And, and and if you're in a situation where you don't have your personal device, a device, at least the low tech solutions are there for you as well. And a lot of low tech solutions are can be can are part of are are are being made part of the the the physical design standards that are coming out with various accessibility acts and updates to building codes and things as well too. So it's hope. Hopefully they'll all be there and and, and as we develop, develop more accessible wayfinding with tactile with wayfinding tiles and, and other other solutions like your phone is not going to tell you, for example, that you're, that you've strayed from the sidewalk. Richard Marion: Side. Richard Marion: The bike path side of a, of a of a shared path. But tactile tiles will tell you that, like, even if you're not using a cane, you know, if you just step on it with your shoe, you go, oh, I didn't realize I'd strayed over into the. I'm straying over into the bike lane, for example, because in shared paths, the bike lane and the sidewalk are level with each other. So it's it's so that your phone isn't going to tell you that. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I take it you use a combination of both low tech and high tech? Yeah. Yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You do? Yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you've got a guide dog, Baja. Richard Marion: I've got a guide dog and. Yeah, Baja is is is my trusty companion. And but again, it's the same, even though I have a guide dog, if I dogs grab with, if they're not going to be able to tell that they're, that they're walking on the bike lane side of the path because they're trained to go either on the left hand side or right hand side or something. So you have to if you're if you're on a shared path, they may be you may be walking down the bike lane and not know it until you, until you, until you've crossed like until until someone on a bike approaches you from behind. So you still need you still need some physical adaptation. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So she's just part of the overall suite of. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Of technology that. Yeah. Richard Marion: And also like obviously obviously the their role is to make sure you're safe and that and preventing you from you know crossing streets when you're not supposed to or falling down stairs and things like that. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So and you've had many guide dogs. I've met a few of them. Richard Marion: Yeah, yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So I know you've spoken publicly about complex design issues like modern bus stop layouts. What accessibility concerns, concerns do you see emerging as cities redesign streets, stops and transit exchanges? Richard Marion: So I think the thing that's that's because because the we're getting into areas of different types of mobility, like for, for the general public. So like the e-scooters, e-bikes and and so and we're, we're starting to get a lot more multi-use environments. So I think the thing that the cities have to keep in mind is they have to really work with all everyone and come up with solutions that, that actually in maintain accessibility. So. So some of the big issues that I touched on earlier, the the separated bike lanes and the floating platform bus stops is a major accessibility issue. And every and if we don't sort of if we actually don't come to grips with that now and develop some sort of national guidance or standard on it, every single city is going to do something slightly different. And and, and every city is going to have a different view of the advice they're getting from their community of people with disabilities as well to on the issue as well. And we're seeing that in British Columbia. Victoria is doing one thing Cologne is doing something else. Vancouver might be doing something and even within the same city, like they're doing different things as, as they sort of look at. So that's the kind of thing like the trying to figure out the best way for everyone to coexist because the cities are, are, are trying to focus less on the, the personal vehicle like the car cars and and so by doing that they they our streets are changing. And I would like to think it's for the better because it's going to be better for the environment, but it creates more accessibility. It potentially could create a whole new set of accessibility challenges for people with disabilities. Like there are people that say they won't leave their home now because the bus stop they have to go to is beside a separated bike lane. And yet that in the past that wasn't nobody even thought about separated bike lanes and bus stops co-existing. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well you've worked in so many different landscapes, so many different environments. And as the clock winds down I want to ask you this question. What's next for my good friend Richard Marion, where are you going next. What are you thinking. What are you hoping. Richard Marion: I don't know, I it's funny when, when I, when I first started doing advocacy, when I was a student at 21 years old, I said, I'm never going to be doing this for the rest of my life. That was never my goal is I just wanted to do something when I was a university student and and and then and then all of a sudden, like I said, 35 years later, I'm still a big part of my life. I think for me, what's next is, is I want to continue I want to continue working on accessibility issues. I've also been I think I might want to might move towards sort of accessible recreational activities like I do, I do I am a board member of the vocal I Descriptive Arts Society. So accessible theater and community events is is is becoming a major passion of mine as well. And so I think that's, that's I want to continue that work. And so as I sort of wind down any work I've been doing on transit or web accessibility I think that's I would want to spend my volunteer time doing that. And also, my husband and I want to do more of our traveling as well too. So like, I like have to kind of we kind of were. We were both. We're not I won't say we're old, but we're we're kind of getting into that age where we think we're like, well, we thought we maybe we should cross off a few of our sort of things that we really want to do that, that, that before we can't do them anymore. So like so I think over the next 5 to 10 years, I definitely will do a little less sort of hardcore disability advocacy work and do something, do some, some work that's a little more I wouldn't say enjoyable, but it's just different for me. And then and, and then so that's, that's why I kind of dabble with, like I said, accessible theater and community events. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We will not I mean, we did not touch on the fact that and I think you were the youngest president of the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians. Richard Marion: I believe so, yeah. I was I. Richard Marion: Was. Richard Marion: 20. Nine when 28. 29 when I got elected. Did, so did it for one year. If I knew now what I knew. If I knew then what I know now. I may, may have still done it, but would have definitely done a lot of different things. But that's a whole other podcast on the early years of the A, B, C or the back. Then it was the National Federation of Blind Advocates for equality. Richard Marion: So yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And that's where we met when I was vice president of the ABC and then became president. And you walk the walk with me. Richard Marion: Yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this deserves another podcast to talk about your experiences in that field and what you experienced, what what you enjoyed, what you did not quite enjoy, what you'd like to see improved. So in closing, are there any other comments you would like to make or anything else you'd like to tell our listeners? Richard Marion: What I'd like to tell you? Listen, especially your younger listeners, like, I know, I know today we we all think that all answers are in social media, but there is still a need for for group advocacy. And, you know. So if you are troubled with an issue like social media is great because sometimes it. Sometimes it results in the change you're expecting. But finding like minded individuals and community and getting involved in your community really will help things overall. And because social media itself is it is nice and it's a great it's a great tool, but it should only be one tool in the toolbox. And and and also, I don't want to sound like one of those old people, but like, the issues people are dealing with today are a lot like, they're I was just going to say simpler, but they're different. But but when, when we were younger, like, we, we didn't have the same sort of tools that that could go that could reach the masses. So that's like social media is great as a tool, but you know, but still getting together with like minded individuals and being part of a group and being on local advisory committees is really is really important, is a really important part of that, because that's where real change that's in my, my opinion, the real changes happen that affect you, your personal life on a day to day basis. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Richard Marion aka Rich. Thank you so much for being a part of our podcast. I want to thank you and I look forward to continuing to work with you. Richard Marion: Great. Richard Marion: Thank you very much. It's been enjoyed. Enjoyed being a guest. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You take care now. Richard Marion: You too. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye bye. Richard Marion: Bye. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #74: Interview with Freek van Welsenis, Co-Founder, Hable | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-02-10-2026/ In this insightful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Freek van Welsenis, co-founder of Hable, for a practical, no-nonsense conversation about what it really takes to build assistive technology that people can rely on. Donna introduces Freek as a mission-driven innovator, and Freek traces his motivation back to growing up alongside two siblings with disabilities, learning early that technology can either empower people or frustrate them beyond belief. Freek shares how Hable began at Eindhoven University of Technology as a student attempt to help his co-founder's blind grandfather communicate independently, and how the project "accidentally" became a company once blind testers and community members began asking for a product they could actually use day-to-day. Together, Donna and Freek dig into why touchscreen gestures can be slow, tiring, and "too public," and how Hable's devices (including Hable One and Hable Easy) prioritize physical buttons, safer phone use (even with the phone kept in a pocket), and simpler learning curves, especially for seniors and people new to screen readers. Freek also highlights real user impact, Hable's approach to staying compatible through ongoing iOS/Android updates, and the company's expansion into more affordable daily-living tools like SpeechLabel and Stack Tiles, all grounded in a philosophy Donna strongly agrees with: listen first, build with the community, and keep things as simple as possible without sacrificing power. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, through touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong career barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled. Humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build, Freek van Welsenis, I hope I got that correct? Freek van Welsenis: Hi. Yes, Freek van Welsenis. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Welcome to my show. I am very pleased to have you as a guest. Welcome. Freek van Welsenis: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So let's start with question one. So Freek I'd love to start with your quotation. You've spoken spoken about growing up with siblings affected by disability. What did you see firsthand that made you determined to build something that helps people to participate fully in society? Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So I I grew up with two siblings with disabilities. And both my both my parents work work in healthcare with people with disabilities. So from a very young age, I was surrounded by people with all sorts of disabilities. And one thing that always fascinated me was the, the part that technology can either be like a huge enabler or it can be the most frustrating thing that exists. And like that's that's contrast to something that's just sweet. That stayed with me as I went to high school and later to university, and I just felt like technology could be the most amazing thing if we build it right and if we build the right things. And if we would build it for everyone and that's and that's the thing that kind of led me to this path of, of cable and building assistive technology, because I feel like if you use technology the right way, that is where we can make where we can make a difference instead of making it the worst thing for many people. That's where it comes from. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wonderful. As someone who is blind myself, I am always curious how allies learn to truly Get it. How did having parents who are social workers shape your understanding of independence, dignity and practical support? Freek van Welsenis: Yes, I think I think being surrounded by my by my siblings and my parents, it taught me a lot. But I think the first thing that it taught me is that I probably well, I probably I don't really get it. So I can learn a lot from people with disabilities, but I can never think that I've any lived experience. Even though I know many people with disabilities, that is, I think the most important thing that I learned throughout my childhood is that no matter the ideas we have about assistive technology, no matter the, the things we have about developing a product or making it better, the one thing I learned is that I don't know what the right way forward is, and I should always do that with people who have the disability that we're designing for. So I think the, the, my honest answer is that I don't get it. And that's, I think the thing to get that I need to make sure that I'm surrounded by people who do and who can really make sure that we're, we're moving forward and that we're always working with a community of people who will be using our products, that they decide on what the next steps are. That's I think, my most important part. And that just means listening a lot, asking people what how to move forward and and working with our customers, our community to make sure we do the right things. That's for me, the the biggest learning I got from from my youth and my my surroundings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think a lot of people should be listening more carefully to what you've just said, because too many people, I don't know, they just think that, oh, we know what to do. We can tell you what to do. And I'm saying, but I'm the blind person. You're the sighted person. How can you tell me what to do? And how can I tell you what to do? You know. Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, exactly. Because I've had so many conversations, especially with people maybe who are a bit more new to this, and they say, well, I can, I can mimic that I'm not I can try, but I'm keeping my eyes close to this product and I'm like, that's that's nowhere near nowhere near an experience of, like, nowhere near a good test to do this. It's really about doing this with people with the disability who are going to test it, who are going to work with it. They should decide on the next steps. That's the most important thing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, when someone says, well, I can close my eyes and I can tell I said, no, you can't, don't don't even go there. Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, please don't go there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean no you're not you're not really understanding. Yeah, yeah. No cable or cable. How do you pronounce it? Freek van Welsenis: Habal habal. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Habal Habal grew out of. And I'm going to hope and pray that I pronounce this properly. Indoor Haven University of Technology's innovation space. Okay. Can you take me back to that student environment? And what problems were you trying to solve? And what made you realize that it could become a real company? Freek van Welsenis: So first of all, sorry for all those Dutch names. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's okay. Freek van Welsenis: I know the Netherlands has some impossible words, but. Yeah. No, I. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Think it's cool. Freek van Welsenis: Okay, great. Yeah. So I studied at at the Eindhoven University, and this is where this is where Hable came on my path. So I met my co-founder, Usman, and Usman had a grandfather who was blind, and he simply said Ayushman came from India, but he studied in the Netherlands. And he said, every time I'm calling back home every time I'm texting to my family at home. They are always picking up the phone, and I'm not able to directly speak with my grandfather or for him to pick up the phone. And he said, But I'm a technical student, I study design, I feel like I should be able to make something, build something so he can do it on his own. And that's where we started as naive students who thought, let's just fix this problem and and see what we can do. And very early on, we realized that the only way to do this, or the only way to work on this, was to surround ourselves by people with blindness in the Netherlands, so we could do a lot of the testing and designing. And as we were doing this those people that we were working with, they told us, well, but I also want to have the device at some time. Freek van Welsenis: Right. Like, I'm, I'm doing so much work and it's now getting to a place where I'm also just starting to rely on it and use it a lot. So, yeah, can can we get the product from you and then me and you realize, well, that's a good question. We don't actually know. So we kind of accidentally turned into a company. We were just trying to solve this problem, and then we realized, well, we need to go to the next level if we don't want to do it well. And we really, like, need to build a product that people really can rely on. And that's and that's where the real journey started. So we, we just surround ourselves by people to build like make the product better. We raised investments and yeah, we grew into we grew into a company. But it was honestly it was more of an accident that we grew into it than than the idea. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have a quick question for you. Technical question. I just updated the iPhone 16 E, and the table that I bought about two years ago can't seem to pair with my phone. Is it because my my cable is an older version? Freek van Welsenis: No. It should. Freek van Welsenis: I actually have the same phone, and it works with my phone. I think it might still be paired to the other phone. Could that be possible? Like that? It's still pairing to the other phone. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I hope not, but I'm going to take a closer look at it this weekend because we have a holiday on Monday, so I'll have a bit more time. Yeah. Freek van Welsenis: Okay, okay. I think that's it. And otherwise just let me know. I have a few ways that I could troubleshoot. It should work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you were building a table while still in graduate studies. What were the hardest part of being a student and running a fast moving startup at the same time? And what habits helped you survive that season? Freek van Welsenis: So I think that starting a company as a student, of course, there's the big downside of that. You are also doing your studies. So I was always I always had too little time to do what I wanted to achieve in a week. But there's also, I think, a big benefit in that as a student, you don't need like many funds, so you can fully focus and put everything you have into your startup. And you have a lot of flexibility. I didn't have a family yet, depending on me. I didn't have any like, any very strict rules. So I could just really go all in on just my, my startup and my studies and that that helped a lot. So it although it were like a lot of hours and long weeks, the flexibility helped out. So I think that was actually it was not it's not as difficult as it would seem to combine it to. I think it actually might be more difficult at a, at a later stage to do that. Yes. And in terms of the, in terms of the habits, I think the one thing that really helped me is just that I just enjoyed it a lot. Yeah. The work is the work we do, although it's really challenging. It's so much fun because you get you get to speak with so many different people. I get you get so much appreciation. It's so fun to quickly like to work on a product, make design changes. It's just so I think that whole excitement just helped a lot in in kind of going through that phase and, and growing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear the excitement in your voice. I really can, and I think it's so great when, you know, there's a difference between someone who enjoys what they're doing, as opposed to someone who is only doing it because they're being told to do it, you know? Freek van Welsenis: Yes, I think so, too. I think I'm very lucky, to be honest, that I can work on something I enjoy so much. I think it's it's a it's a great thing to have now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In the early days, people appeared to have been largely like what we call bootstrapped. Okay? Leaning on on prizes and on competitions and incubators. How did you fund development and manufacturing when resources were tight? And what would you do differently now? Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, that is a good question. So I think I think at the start we were we were just very creative with everything we had. So we had we had a lot of like hours that we could put into it as students. And we had a lot of the facilities from the university. So that helped us a lot. When we did early prototyping with 3D printing, with working on electronics, we did our own programming. So that made us really lean as they would say. So we could just lean on our own on our own hours to make big changes. And then we just applied to many pitching competitions, startup competitions to kind of get a little bit of funds into, to grow and to develop the product further. But at some stage, like if I think at least this is my, my, my vision is that at some page, when you're when you know you're going to develop the product and, and a lot of people are going to use it and they're gonna rely on it, I, it has to be of a certain quality. So at some point maybe okay, this is really solving a problem. Freek van Welsenis: There's really a lot of people who want this. And then we need to get an actual actual funds to do this and to professionally develop this product. And, and I'm very happy we ended up doing that and that we were able to, like, raise the capital for it. Because the reliability is still one of the most important things, I think, with a product like this. So what would what would I, what would I do differently now? I think maybe we should have taken that step a little bit earlier. So we were we I think we took a little too long with designing and getting more and more feedback. And although that's really good, it took us like a long, long time. And if we maybe got in a bit more funds earlier, we could have speed up the whole process. All in all though, for like I was 21 when I started with the company, I think for that age I think it was fine. I think we learned so much in the progress in the process. So I'm not I'm not too harsh on myself in this case. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How many years how many years did it take you to, to bring this to fruition or to get results to start with? Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, it depends a bit on how how you count. But like we became a real company in in 2021. But already before that in 2020. Sorry. But already before that we put in like quite a lot of time as a students. I think it took us like four and a half years before we really brought the product to the market. Like before, it was really something that was used by yeah. Around the world. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Were you ever sort of seeing what is going on here? Am I on the right track, or were you always upbeat? Freek van Welsenis: Oh, no. Every day I, I think. I think it's healthy to have have some have some crisis once in a while. Oh yeah. In terms of like, right, like you have I think you have to constantly question, like, are we doing the right things? And, and there's periods when you have to say a lot because I mean, in the end so many things go wrong. And it happens less now than, than before, but still just things will go wrong. And, and you also should constantly question, like, are we doing the right things and are we moving forward? Right. I think now that I'm a little bit older and I've done this for a little bit longer, I, I feel like I every time this happens, I now recognize, hey, this is actually good that we're having this, but at the start it would cause quite a bit of panic every time you have like, big things going wrong. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Was it difficult to recruit others to work with you, and do you have a big group with you? Freek van Welsenis: I think that's one of the things that, like, it's quite easy for us to recruit good people. Because I, I think that most people, especially the people that work with us. They just want to work on things that really make a difference. And for us, I think, yeah, a lot of people see right away that that you're working on something that makes something that makes an impact. So we always get a lot of applications from people who want to work with us. And right now we're with almost eight people in the in the team. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So that's I think I think for us, that's already a big team. Like we grew a lot over the last few years. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's talk about the core user problem. As a blind smartphone user, I know such touch screens can be powerful, but also slow, frustrating and very public. Okay, what specific barriers did hable you know, One set out to remove voice over and talkback users. Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, I think the like the core problem, like when we started to to develop the product, this was really for the grandfather of my co-founder, and he mostly had a problem with typing. And that's like the one thing we started with. And for us, we early on decided to work with Braille for typing because he was a Braille user. And that made the most sense in our case. But as we started testing more and more with people around us so in the Netherlands, like with, with blind users, we realized that the swiping and tapping for a lot of people is very frustrating to do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yes, it is. Freek van Welsenis: The more like difficult the gestures gets. Like once you go to the rotor commands or other, it just can get very frustrating. And we, we felt like a lot of people would prefer to use buttons, just physical buttons over using gestures on the screen. So we started to solve the problem for typing, but later on we said okay, but actually the problem about gestures and swiping on the screen is actually as like equally big. So that also meant that our proposition changed completely when we started. It was actually a phone case that we designed. Oh, okay. The able one was going to be part of the phone with, like, buttons on the back into a phone case. But with that design in mind, you would still have to swipe on your phone. And then we realized, hey, but if we make it a separate device and also use it to control VoiceOver and talkback, so the swiping, then there's even an added benefit and that is that your phone can stay safe. Like for people who go outside or who walk in public, your phone can actually stay in your pocket and you just use your able to control it. So we realized that there was a way better design for the for the problems people were having with using the smartphone. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's a great idea. I mean, like, you know, you don't want to be taking out your phone and you never know who's looking at your screen. Freek van Welsenis: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And and we've unfortunately heard, like, really awful stories of people who were outside and someone just snatched their iPhone or just. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Freek van Welsenis: And then. Yeah. You're in. Yeah. I don't I just feel so sorry for for the people that happened to. And then I think with cable, we've never heard someone took out a cable because I don't think people know what it is. No, they wouldn't have a clue. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. They probably start staring at it and saying, what the hell is this? Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't want this. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Cable has grown to serve thousands of users across many countries. Okay. What impact measures or sorry, what impact measures matter most to you daily use, independence outcomes, user confidence and what user stories have stayed with you the most? Freek van Welsenis: The thing we measure. So the thing that we really set the start is most important, is that we compared what people were able to do without the table one versus with. That was our measure, because every person is different. And also the reason for using a table can be completely different. But the goal is that you should be able to do more or be do it faster, or do it without less frustration than without the table one. That was the main goal. So we tried to measure the difference that it made essentially. And from that, like the, the you just hear a lot of amazing stories that that for me is still, I think, I mean, I like data, I like to look at numbers. I have a technical background, but the stories are way more fun in our case. And we have some like amazing story. There's this there's a kit from the from the UK. His name is his name is Brian. He's 14, and he in high school, he wasn't able to participate in the programming class just because it wasn't accessible and he couldn't work with it through the material he had in school. So for him, we designed the package on the table so he could work with programming. And now he's he's almost going to university, and he's, like, the best in class with programming. And I think that's just an amazing story of that. We've been able to contribute to that. I think that's really cool. I have a few stories of people who are not able to use the phone at all before, and now they're able to use their socials, their they message people, they even use like their banking app on their phone. And it said it just makes a massive difference in being connected to others. Yeah, I think those things for me are just put a big smile on my face. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So basically it's it's another way to navigate the phone and navigate it more safely. More easily. Freek van Welsenis: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Cable easy is designed for people who want buttons, not swipes. That sounds like me. Especially for seniors or those new to accessible, accessible tech. What real life needs pushed you to create able easy. And what did you learn by working with rehabilitation and occupational therapy therapy professionals? Freek van Welsenis: So easy. I I'm really proud of because it is not my idea at all. So easy. Just came from a a question. We work a lot with occupational therapists and professionals around the world. And we got a question from a few different occupational players around the world who said, hey, we really like this one. It's amazing. But for many of our clients that we work with, they don't know any Braille. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So. Freek van Welsenis: They cannot work with it, but they really would love to use the buttons to control the phone because because swiping is just it's just not working for them. It's too frustrating. It's too annoying to learn. It takes so much time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, it sounds like me a lot. Freek van Welsenis: And I mean, I got it. So I, we talked to all of the different people and then actually I went on a training myself. So I said, hey, I really want to get like like understand this. So for two weeks I, I don't know if this is right, but I shadowed an occupational therapist, so I just sat in all the training sessions with her as she was training people to work with voiceover and talkback. And I just noticed that the frustration. And then for some people, they would go in and one week, like after an hour, they would finally be able to, like, swipe through the phone. But then next week they came back and they said, you know, I've been trying every day, but like the double tap, I do it too slow and then I do it too fast. And then my phone is at an angle and and I yeah, we just saw the frustration. So together with the actually the professionals, we built a version of cable that didn't need any braille. They just had one button for one function that allows you to swipe through the phone to hang up the phone call, pick up a phone call to change the volume, like all the basic functions are in there. If you want to type, you use dictation, but it's all just through buttons. And yeah, we built it completely with with the community around us, and now it's being used by a lot of people. So that's I think it's a super cool, super cool thing we did based just on community feedback as something we ourselves would not have thought of. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it is easy, a lot different from table one because I think I have the table one. Freek van Welsenis: So the table is the same hardware as the table one, and the only difference is the the software. So you just change. We just change the software on there so that instead of using multiple buttons at a time like with Braille, you would use one button at a time. And for the table, ECV also adds tactile stickers in there. So you can add tactile stickers on the buttons to make it easier to remember what they do. For example, there's a there's an arrow for the tickets that swipe forward and swipe backwards. There's a little microphone for the for the dictation. There's a little phone horn for picking up a phone call. A phone call. So that's the only difference. And we sell them as different products because they're used by different groups mostly, but you can always switch. So if you're a table one user and you want to try table easy, or if you're able easier and you want to try the table one that you can just do that. It's completely free. And we do that through the app, through a software update. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I need to be talking to you about table easy because I bought table table one. I think I bought it about maybe two years ago. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I've, you know, I was really impressed with it, but I haven't had time to really you know, experience the potential of table one. But from what you're telling me about table. Easy. Yeah, I think I need to have a chat with you offline. Freek van Welsenis: Yeah, we can do that. Of course. I'm happy to walk you through it. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you have expanded beyond keyboards to daily living tools like speech label, voice labeling and stack tiles. Tac tactile markings. Wow. What made you decide to broaden the product ecosystem? And how do these tools complement table one and table easy in every day life? Freek van Welsenis: Yes. So the well, let me let me start with the, the the question like why we why we expanded to these products. So yes. First like table one and table easy was our table one was our starting point. And later on table easy and assured like as we're distributing these products, as we're developing them and continuing development, we noticed that we have slowly built up quite a large group of people around us, from our customers to the professionals to our partners, like our distribution partners, and like all sorts of organizations around the world. And as you do this, you get so much feedback, like, I feel like we've learned so much from everyone about frustrations or about things that go really well, or where in the, in the world new things are needed. And from that, the feeling we got most is that there's quite a big need for assistive technology that's a little bit simpler, and it's a little bit more affordable. I think there's many amazing companies working on the more, let's say, high end assistive technology. But there's not that many companies working on more affordable assistive technology. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. So so that's the gap we want to fill. That that's where I want to go and focus with. And these two products are the first two in that in that line, we, we invested a lot in building these products and getting into the market speech labels. The first one this is a it's a labeling system. So there are a combination of stickers and buttons that you can attach to anything around you. You scan this with our speech label app and then you can add a label to it. So you can add either a voice label with your voice, or you can add a text to it. And next time you scan that same label, the voice pops out or the text pops out. And you can, for example, use this to label your clothing. It can be there to label things like your containers with leftover food from the day, to label what it is or when you made it. And this labeling system, then we build it in such a way that it's, we think, really affordable. So the app is completely free. You just buy labels if you need them. And labels, like, for example, the, the, the stickers we have, you have 100 labels for just I think it's like $21. And you can reuse them as many times as you like. So that's one of the first, the first things we built and now we just launched Stack Tiles. We only launched that a few weeks ago. These are really high quality tactile stickers. It's yeah, it's it's something you have to, like kind of feel, but it's a, a 3D printed tactile sticker. It's I think the highest quality tactile sticker that exists. We have it in different icon shapes. We have ones with Braille and without braille. And all of this, we're gonna launch this March in the, in the in Canada and the United States. And I'm just really excited for it because I really feel like it's our next phase of able. And bringing this to the world. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess you'll be competing with Penfriend, won't you? Freek van Welsenis: Yes, yes, we certainly will be competing with them. Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my goodness. Look out! Hey! Freek van Welsenis: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For listeners who may not be fluent in Braille, what is the realistic learning curve a curve with table one. And how do you support users who are learning Braille? Switching braille codes or choosing between contracted and uncontracted Braille. Freek van Welsenis: So the when it comes to Braille on the table one of course, the easiest thing, if you already know Braille, it's very intuitive. So you can get started relatively quickly once you know what each button is. The brailling goes quite fast if you're completely new to Braille. There's, of course, a learning curve. It's good to understand that using the able one is just typing. So just inputs for Braille. So it is not that you are learning reading in Braille when you're working with table one. I think that's a good thing to mention. Which on one side has the downside that you're not necessarily right away learning to read Braille. At the other hand, it is a lot faster than learning to read Braille. Because reading takes a lot more practice than typing. So if you're completely new to using to using braille it depends per person, but it goes faster than it would to read Braille. And it it's really hard to give a one like one answer to this because it completely differs per person how much time you put into this. But I've seen someone who's really fast, and it would really take only a few days. And there's also people who take take longer, and it can be a few few weeks to months. But that really depends per person. There is a lot of information we have out there for people who have never used before. We have YouTube series I think it's seven episodes. That's of course, completely audio driven. On how to use it if you're not a real user. We have online classes for this and we always offer a support of at least 30 minutes of a call with one of our trainers. So we have a lot of materials around it. If you're if you're if you're new to them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is the braille, is the Hubble easy? Is it like, would you call it an improvement over the Hubble one or table one? Sorry. Freek van Welsenis: No, I would say it's just a different like a different reason for using it. So the like table is, is just a it's a more simple product. So it's more for people who really struggle with the gestures and who don't necessarily want to type fast in Braille. So just if you're more new to using screen readers or if you're more frustrated with how to use them, table is like the simplest way to do this. And the table one specifically for for people who also want to type in braille and move quickly through their phone, I would say Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. Now my clock is starting to wind down, but I have this question for you. After compatibility is a moving target because iOS and Android change so often. Okay. How do you keep cable devices working smoothly through operating system updates? And what does your accessibility testing process look like before and after updates ship? Freek van Welsenis: Yes. So this is one of the, I would say, unique selling points of the one compared to other products to other braille keyboards. And we the software on this one is completely built from scratch by us, and it's recognized by the phone as a Bluetooth keyboard and not as a Braille keyboard. And that's a seems like a tiny difference. It's a very big difference. But the first big difference is that it's way more expensive to write all the software. But the reason we did that is because it will always stay compatible as long as a Bluetooth keyboard stays compatible. And you can imagine that Bluetooth keyboards have to stay compatible. Yes, with every software update, yes they do. So that is a big a big reason for us why? It's it's like really easy for us to keep it compatible. Because if it wouldn't be compatible, then nothing is compatible. Let's say. And we have a, we have a special enable app that is there to update the software whenever we need to add updates. So the updating of the one is also relatively easy. If it's connected to your phone, you can update it. So this just makes it very smooth to do the whole building process. And when it comes to testing we, we have a few steps in our testing process. So there is internal testing that we do with the team. In our team are also a few people who are blind themselves who are able one users. So they do do the tests in the team. Then when we are happy and we push the updates, of course we test again. And then we also have a select group of customers of us who are very active who do the first testing of the, of the beta software and only after they like it, we then push the push the update out. So there's quite a few steps in making sure everything works as smoothly as it should. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So I have one final question for you because the clock is saying, you know, simplicity seems central to your philosophy. You've spoken about people using a small percentage of features most of the time. How did that shape the core commands you choose to prioritize first and what features Did you intentionally not build? Now, don't give away your trade secrets. But just. Freek van Welsenis: Tell me. Yeah, I really like this question. Because I think simplicity is something most people strive for. But it's so I learned so hard to achieve. But what I always what I try to tell my team when we're working on new product is that when we build something we should like, imagine making a building and everyone that comes there needs to get upstairs, but there's not one way to get upstairs. We want to develop multiple ways to get upstairs so it's accessible to more people. So there should be a way with stairs. There should be a ramp. There should be an elevator. Maybe there should be a whole different structure to get you upstairs. And that's we then try to put into a product and a good example maybe is something I don't think many people know this, but on the table one, many of the commands work, even if you do it wrong. So for example, the the double tap. So the the the double tap for example is a is a command you use all the time. So it's a double tap this on the table. One is press button seven and eight together. So the spacebar and the backspace. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Freek van Welsenis: However if you hold those buttons. So if you don't press them shortly which is the command, but if you hold them it also still does this. And if you hold one of them first and only later the other. So if you're a little bit, let's say not instantly, it doesn't matter. We have like a timer so that it still works. So it kind of predicts when you want to do what. And then if you make a small error, we correct it for you so that it still works. And that means that for us, it's quite hard to like. It makes it very complex to develop. But for a user, everything seems way more simple. Now there is a example I can give. There's a lot of examples I cannot give. But this is what we try to build into every every single one of our products. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Freek, it has been a pleasure having you and I've learned so much about your product. Real pleasure to hear someone talking about, you know, understanding what is necessary, going out there and saying, you know, I need to learn, not, you know, the regular person who says, I know what to do. No, you don't, and I don't. So I want to thank you for for coming on to my podcast today. Freek van Welsenis: Yes, of course, that's it. And thank you so much for having me, Donna. I really enjoyed it today. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's been my pleasure. You take care and we'll talk to you soon. Freek van Welsenis: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care now. Yeah. Bye bye. Freek van Welsenis: Bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #73: Interview with Aisling Redican, Communications Director and Fundraising Manager, Xavier Society for the Blind | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-02-04-2026/ In this thought-provoking and deeply human episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Aisling Redican, Communications Director and Fundraising Manager at the Xavier Society for the Blind, for an engaging conversation about faith, accessibility, and global inclusion. Aisling shares her personal journey into disability service work and explains how the Xavier Society has, for more than 125 years, quietly ensured that blind and low-vision Catholics around the world have free access to religious materials in Braille, large print, and audio formats. Together, Donna and Aisling unpack what true accessibility means, not as charity, but as dignity, participation, and belonging. The discussion explores the Society's worldwide reach, its production of hundreds of thousands of Braille pages annually, and the critical role accessible Mass propers play in enabling blind Catholics to fully participate as lectors, congregants, and clergy. Aisling also reflects on the organization's evolving work in Spanish-language materials, accessible web design, and future projects such as large-print Roman Missals. Grounded in lived experience and practical advocacy, this episode highlights how sustained commitment, thoughtful design, and listening to blind users can transform faith practice, and serves as a powerful reminder that accessibility is not optional, but essential to an inclusive world. TRANSCRIPT ADVERTISEMENT: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. ADVERTISEMENT: I can't see it. ADVERTISEMENT: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invite you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Johnson, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark had a case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets Top back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice, and I invite you to think of the show as your shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I'm very pleased and I'm very privileged to welcome Aisling Redican. I hope I got this correctly of the Xavier Society. Welcome to my podcast Aisling, you and I have been connecting and engaging with each other over the last few years. So welcome to my podcast. Aisling Redican: Thank you so much, Donna, for having me. Yes, we've been we've been well connected over the years and I've really enjoyed listening. To your your introduction there. Very impressive background. But thank you for having me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're very welcome. So let's get started. Aisling, I'd love to start with you personally. Could you share a bit about your own background and faith journey and how that path eventually led you to the Savior Society for the blind? Aisling Redican: Sure. So it's kind of funny. You know, I look back and how I ended up at Xavier Society and it's kind of like, you know, different, you know, some might say coincidences, some might say it was God winks, you know what have you. But I grew up a cradle Catholic, so I was raised Catholic. I didn't go to Catholic school. I went to public school here in the United States. So I did religion classes on the weekend and things like that. So I wasn't, you know, we went to church on Sundays and things like that, but weren't very, you know my parents are Irish, like, off the boat. So they're, you know, they're, you know, culturally, you know, really Catholic, but I wouldn't say religiously, like, super religious. So I didn't really grow up, you know, as I, as super religious, but I went to college, I went to NYU. So it wasn't a religious, you know affiliated university. But I kind of, you know, stuck with, you know, I kept going to mass, kept, you know, doing that. I graduated college with a degree in English. So basically, I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. And when I left university, I traveled, which I have a huge interest in and I did everything kind of I wanted to do. And you know, when you're young and free and things like that. And when I came back to, to the States I was like, all right, I need to get a job. Aisling Redican: So I had as most, you know, young people do in New York City, I had quite a, a long background in the service industry in you know, waiting tables and bartending and things like that. But I got to about 27, and I was like, you know what? I'm getting kind of old for this. I need to get a real job. Right. And I just kind of stumbled on this, this ad for Xavier Society for the blind. They were looking for someone. A communications and fundraising person. And I didn't know what that what the fundraising part entailed, but I was like, you know, I have a background in English, so I can I can do the communications part, I think. So and they were looking it was funny in the, in the job description, they were looking for someone who could carry heavy things. And I was like, well, I'm a bartender. I carry stuff up and down stairs all the time. I can do this. So and I'm Catholic, so let me apply for this job. So I applied for it and lo and behold, I got it. And then I realized they needed someone to carry heavy things because there was a hundred Braille Bibles that needed to be transported from one office to another on a different floor. So that was my first week at Xavier Society was moving Braille boxes, Braille Bibles, and as I'm sure you know, Donna the Braille Bible is 45 volumes long. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Aisling Redican: So that was a lot of up and down stairs. But anyway, that's kind of my background with Xavier Society. It's evolved over the years. I'm more I started off kind of with a client services end of things. I was kind of helping out with that with the woman who used to to be the coordinator at Xavier Society Christine Moore. But she retired, and we had someone else come in and fill the role, and I kind of moved away from the client services end of things and more into fundraising and communication where I am now. But I I supervise the client services department. So I still have you know, a little bit of my foot in the door there. Aisling Redican: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So for listeners who may be hearing about the Xavier Society for the blind for the very first time, How would you describe its mission and what makes it unique within the Catholic Church, church and the wider blindness community? Aisling Redican: Well, quite simply, I would just say Xavier Society's mission is to provide the word of God in accessible formats at no charge to people all over the world in in whatever format that they need. So we provide braille, large print talking books, which are audio books that play on the talking book machines provided by the Library of Congress here in the United States. Yeah. And we also have some downloadable audiobooks because a lot of our clients are outside the United States as well, and they don't have access to those machines. That's great. Yeah. So I mean, we're kind of the only rodeo in town in terms of what we provide one of our largest lines of service is the propers of the Sunday mass, right. Which are essentially, you know, people are kind of like, what is that? So we like to say they're the missals for mass. And they include the monthly readings, prayers, and responses to the mass on Sundays and special feast days. So those are available in Braille, BRF electronic Braille and large print. And we send those out to just over a thousand people all over the world every single month. Aisling Redican: And we did a back of the envelope calculation on how many pages that amounted to. So if I'm getting my figures correct, I believe it's 750,000 Braille pages every year. And let me get this right now, 125,000 large print pages. So it's a lot. It's a lot. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Aisling Redican: So And we do this all free of charge. And. Yeah, like I said, we're it's pretty much the the only rodeo in town doing this. We've been doing it for 126 years now. We just celebrated our 125th anniversary last year. But we're just the biggest issue for us is just kind of, you know, letting people know that we're here and that we've been here and we're going to be here and just getting the word out. So we appreciate opportunities like this. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So you've been with the Xavier Society for the blind for about a decade now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And from my perspective, and as a blind person, that kind of continuity really matters. How has your role evolved over the years And what does your day to day work as a communications director and fundraising manager look like now? Aisling Redican: That's a great question. So when I first started as I as I mentioned previously, I had no background in fundraising. I had no idea what that entailed, what to do? You know, there was this database we were using for finances and you know, lodging donations and things like that. And I had no experience using this. I was like, oh my God, I was thrown in the deep end. But it was it was great because I've definitely learned a lot and evolved since then, but I kind of started off as I as I said, more on the client services end of things. So if Christine couldn't answer the phone, I would pick it up. I'd be talking to clients, taking orders. Different things like that. I helped in the mail room, so getting packages out to patrons getting things in that was that were being sent back to us. So that was kind of when I first started the first few years. That's kind of what I was doing. And our executive director at the time, he was a Jesuit priest, Father John Sheehan he, he kind of handled the fundraising end of things. He liked to write the appeal letters. He liked to do the newsletters. And so, yeah, the communication ended things, too. Aisling Redican: He was kind of handling so when his term as executive director ended we had our new executive director and current executive director, Malachy Fallon, come on board. And he was kind of like, all right, you know what? I'm delegating now. So, Aisling, you got to do the newsletters. You got to write the appeal letters. You've got to do the fundraising. So he he pretty much threw me in the deep end, which was great because I needed to be challenged. And it was it was nice to have that. So as time has moved on I, as I, as I talked about, I write the appeal letters, I mail them out, I coordinate the mailings with the mailing houses and things like that. I schedule social media posts. I run the Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube I send out monthly media blasts and newsletters, things like that. I take all the donations coming in and I have to kind of scan the checks. I have to lodge the donations into our donor management system. So all the boring kind of stuff that you can imagine goes along with the job. So when I, when I talk to people about what I do, I say, oh, I work for a library for the blind. Aisling Redican: That's amazing. I'm like, yeah, I don't do any of the cool stuff like the Braille or the recording the books, but I do, you know, the necessary behind the scenes kind of things. And then I manage a team of two client services coordinators, Saul Buckhalter and Tiffany Edmonds. So they're great. They, you know, if you call Xavier, you're most likely to get Saul. But if he's on another call, you'll get Tiffany. And they kind of do. Now, what I was doing when I first started. So client services, you know, mail intake and sending stuff out to clients and things like that. And our transcriber, Terence McCafferty he was with us for 19 years. He just retired last month. And so I'm kind of we're trying to kind of figure out where we're going to go next in terms like, are we going to get an in-house transcriber or is it going to be something that we outsource to different transcribers across the country? What are we going to do? So I'm kind of helping with that end of things while, you know, while we figure that out. So, as you can imagine, with, with most nonprofits, everyone wears multiple hats. And that definitely rings true for me as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Sounds like a very busy person. Are you? Aisling Redican: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Keeps me out of trouble. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you also supervise the client services team, which is really and truly the front line for patrons. Can you walk us through how a a typical blind or low vision patron connects with you? And what is the process looking like to get them the braille or the audio or the large print materials that they need? Aisling Redican: Sure. So typically patrons will call us with requests. That tends to be the most popular way of getting in touch. And I can I can give you our phone numbers if anyone wants to call us toll free. It's (800) 637-9193. And then we have A212 number as well. So (212) 473-7800. So that tends to be the most popular form of communication with our clients. We also get a lot of emails and people can email us at info at society for the Blind and Xavier's. So those tend to be the most popular ways that people can call and request materials from us. We also have a lot of patrons who connect with us on social media. So they'll send us a message on Facebook or Instagram and say, oh, I saw this book that you listed on your page. Can you send it to me? So there's a number of ways that people can get in touch. We do only send materials to people who are registered with us, and it's super easy if you're not registered to get registered. So there's a number of ways to do it. You can call us up if you receive materials from your local kind of state library for the blind. I know Canada has its Cnib. Is that. Yep. Yeah. Correct. So if if someone receives materials from Cnib or another kind of organization serving the blind and visually impaired, we just need you know, a name, phone number, date of birth and address just to verify that, you know, that they are patrons of those organizations. Aisling Redican: If if a person is not. Which you know, some people aren't aware that these materials are available from you know, other, you know, organizations. It's it's very easy to register with us. We have a one page application that's on our website and that's Xavier Society for the blind. Org. And again Xavier's Xavier. And that application can be filled out online and emailed to us or snail mails, whatever, whatever is easiest. We also have the application available in Braille that we can mail to you. So yeah, a lot of, you know, Braille readers are interested to know what what's on the application, what are we asking for? But it's pretty simple. It's a name, date of birth, phone number, address, email if you have one. And at the bottom there's a certification section. So a doctor a diocesan representative or parish priest some other medical professional, social worker, librarian, what have you, someone that can just sign it and say yes. Ashton has has a visual impairment, yada, yada. Or if they, if the person has a form from their doctor or some sort of documentation stating that will take a copy of it. So it's just for our audit purposes that we need that. And then once you know someone's registered with us, they can request their hearts away. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. That's very you know, concise and very easy to follow, right? Aisling Redican: Yeah. We try to make it as easy as possible to register, you know, like everything's free. We just we're trying to get it out to who needs it. So. But we do require that the person is registered with us in order to, to do that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, I know that the Xavier Society for the blind serves thousands of patrons in the United States and in many other countries. From where you sit. What does that global reach actually look like in practice? And what kinds of needs needs are you hearing about from around the globe? Aisling Redican: That's a great question, I think. So every December on December 13th, we celebrate the feast of Saint Lucy and patron saint of the blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Aisling Redican: And we got an email a couple years ago from a gentleman in Singapore. And he sent me a photo of him lecturing, using our braille mass propers in in his parish on the feast of Saint Lucy, his parish celebrated, you know, an identical mass that we were celebrating. And it was just amazing to see, like, the global reach of, like, not just our offerings because we're just transcribing, you know, the word of God. It's not like we're it's not us, you know, coming up with these materials. We're just making it accessible. Yeah, but it's just it just was so beautiful to see that in practice. And we hear, like, all the time, a lot of our clients like, this gentleman in Singapore, are lectors at their parishes, and, you know, they. It's just amazing to see how something we think is, you know, we do this monthly and it kind of goes over your head, but when you hear about how much it touches people and how much it means to them to receive these materials each and every month so that they can practice and participate in their faith. It's it's amazing. And so that for me is that for me brings like that global impact and makes it aware, makes me aware of like how much Xavier Society means to our patrons, not just here in the States or in Canada, but in Singapore, in Ireland, in Australia and all these other, you know, far flung places that you wouldn't think, you know think would benefit from something like this. But so there's that and then there's one of our biggest lines of service is also transcribing faith formation textbooks for young children. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Aisling Redican: So, yeah, so children in CCD and and adults who are, you know preparing to enter the faith as well. And so we make textbooks available and so and our, our foundress, Margaret Coffey, back in 1900, the reason that she wanted to establish Savior Society for the blind was that she she herself was a blind teacher of blind children, and those children did not have access to faith formation materials. So she wanted them to, to have, you know, access to the same things that decided kids had access to. And then 126 years later, we're still doing that. All over the globe. So it's just it's we're small, but we're mighty. So that's that's what we like to say. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. 126 years. Isn't that something? Aisling Redican: I know, it's amazing. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: One of the things that fascinates me is your library of more than 3000 titles. How do you and your colleagues decide which books to add in braille or audio, and what kinds of spiritual or inspirational works are most in demand from your patrons? Aisling Redican: Well, that's a great question as well. So over the last couple of years, we've been trying to focus on client requests. So a lot of our clients will call or email. They'll say, hi, my parish is doing this. Books, book club or Bible study. And they're reading this book in print. Can you make it available in Braille? So we try to focus our attention on on doing that, especially because those things have tight deadlines. So there's that a lot of it is student textbooks, as I mentioned. So May is a very busy time for us. We're in the middle of, you know, getting textbooks ready for the next school year. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Aisling Redican: Things like that. What else? A client might call up and say, hey, I was listening to EWTN, and I heard about this great book. Can you make it available in audio or Braille or anything like that? So that's really been our focus over the last couple of years. And then if we find ourselves with a little bit of spare time, you know, we might look on the Catholic Publishers Association's website to see, you know, what's new or what's popular, what's trending, and and make that available in whatever format. And then, you know, in terms of what is kind of, you know, forever popular with, with our clients is you know, anything on the rosary? The saints kind of like, tried and tested Catholic, you know Catholic books. I'm trying to think anything on Mary Marian apparitions. Yeah. Any any kind of of those those tried and tested Catholic titles you can think of are probably in in our wheelhouse. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know three books that stand out for me that I have ordered from you. One is called lent with the saints and then advent with the saints. I also got a book on Mother Teresa on the miraculous medals, and I was so pleased when I suggested, you know, to the Xavier Society that there is a book called With God All Things Are Possible, and you guys brailled it. Aisling Redican: Yeah. We taught, you know, if it's in in the past, we've been kind of doing things ad hoc and what we think our, our clients might like. But, you know, we kind of came to the conclusion, like, if our clients are asking for these things, then we should, you know, that's what we're here for. Let's let's make it. Let's make it happen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That makes sense you know. Aisling Redican: Yeah. Yeah. And if you if it's something that you're going to like then most likely it's something you know others are going to like right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Now as a blind Catholic myself, I understand how vital accessible mass materials are. Could you explain the propers of the mass service that you provide and how it works, and what it means for blind and low vision Catholics who want to fully participate in Sunday liturgy? Aisling Redican: Sure. So the easy answer to that is we refer to the propers of the Sunday Mass as essentially the Missal. So it includes not just the readings, prayers, and responses to the mass on Sundays and feast days, but it also has other parts of the mass in there. Like I'm going to get kind of Catholic on on everyone. Now, the collect the entrance antiphon, the prayer after communion. Yeah. And other kind of bits of the mass. That change from week to week. So we serve a lot of priests and they use the propers to celebrate mass. A lot of our clients who receive these in Braille or large print lector at, at church. So that means they get up and they, they read the first reading or the second reading. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Aisling Redican: Or the responsorial psalm, if that's done in their parish. And it just we hear all the time how it just the propers are so essential to the faith practice of our patrons. Yeah. You know, without them, they wouldn't be able to follow along at mass or they wouldn't be able to lector. Or if they're a priest, they wouldn't be able to celebrate the mass. So they're just it's it's it's it's our biggest line of service. Without a doubt. And it just means a lot to the people we serve. And I read an article recently on one of our clients in California, and she was talking about how she was lecturing at the Easter Vigil. And people came up to her after mass and they must not, you know, have realized she was blind or whatever. And they said, did you memorize the readings? And she said, she said, no, because the Easter Vigil is is in the dark for those who don't know. But so she and she, she kind of laughed. She goes, no, I was reading Braille. So she read really, really well but yeah, I know the propers are just you know, something we've been doing for for decades, and it's not available from any other source at any price, and we do it for free. So it's it's a blessing to be able to, to make those available to, to whoever needs them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I sure need them. And I use them all the time. You know, it's just amazing. I feel I feel closer to God when when I read these things. And I'm very, very thankful and very appreciative. Thank you. Aisling Redican: No, it's our pleasure. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You've helped to expand Spanish language Spanish language offerings in both braille and audio. What prompted that focus and what have you put in place so far, and what kinds of responses have you received from Spanish speaking patrons and communities? A mouthful there. Aisling Redican: Yeah. So, you know the Spanish speaking population is the fastest growing population, not just in the United States, but here in the Catholic Church in the United States. And it's probably the same in Canada. I'm not sure. But so we thought, you know, we thought it would be best to make things available in Braille and talking book. So we currently we have we have one book available in Braille, and we have about 15 available in talking book. So we kind of spearheaded this about five years ago, thinking there would be quite a large demand. And it's been kind of slow, to be honest with you. The response and I think it's just kind of just getting the word out and, you know, not that we haven't trying to trying to do that, but maybe between, you know, Covid and everything that kind of, you know, when we initially started doing the Spanish materials, maybe that kind of put a damper on things. But you know, we serve a lot of people in Puerto Rico, in Texas California, Florida kind of states with large Hispanic communities. So a lot of them, a lot of people in those states get our materials in Spanish. We also provide the lectures. So it's not really the proper of the mass. It's just the readings. For Sundays only. In BRF only as well. So we don't do it in hard copy Braille, but it's in BRF for anyone with a Braille display. So we, you know, we have maybe 1 or 2 people every month registering for Spanish materials, but it's it's been it's been I don't think it's been as quick to develop as we originally hoped, but hopefully in the future, more people you know that hear about us will register. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I think so, yeah. Now my clock is starting to wind down. But I wanted to ask you this question. You led a major redesign of the Xavier Society's website with accessibility front and center from your perspective. Okay. As a sighted communications professional, what did you learn through that process about web accessibility and how did feedback from blind users shape the final product? Aisling Redican: So that is another great question. So our website, when I first came to Xavier Society for the blind, was a mess, to put it lightly. It it was very hard to use even as a sighted person. I was like, is this a legit website? Like, oh dear. Yeah, it was one of those. So in 2019, I believe we decided to completely redesign the website. We hired a company out of Vermont who had a background in making websites accessible and things like that. And they had done a number of, of websites for other organizations serving people with disabilities. So you know, we had some good references there to, to check on, but they helped us redevelop the website and do other things just to make it more visually appealing and accessible. Which is more important? So it's a work in progress. Donna you know, we hear from time to time, you know, clients will say, oh, I was unable to find, you know, your catalog or I didn't know where to find the new Braille books, things like that. So those little things are is great. They're great feedback for us. So we're able to kind of enhance and make it more user friendly for our clients. And I think we're we're going to be doing a little refresh to the website this year or maybe next year again. So but accessibility is always kind of top priority for us. And even, you know, we're trying to, you know, make sure they're accessible now and our, our, our application, that's like the number one goal for us this year is to make that completely accessible. So yeah our, our director of technology, he's constantly on webinars and you know doing things, trying to to see what can be done and to, to make that better. But yeah. So it's, it's a work in progress. I'll just say that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it's great. I mean, you know, like for me, I'm an accessibility consultant to the Canadian government. And I'm always so pleased when when people recognize that accessibility means that you are able to independently access the website, navigate it, and use it without much assistance, if at all. So I think it's great and I applaud your efforts in doing this. I wanted to sneak this question by you. Social media has become a big part of how organizations sell their stories. How are you using platforms like Facebook, Instagram X, and YouTube to highlight the experiences of blind and low vision Catholics and to connect donors with the impact of their support? Aisling Redican: Yeah. So I think, you know, the the big, you know, word here is connection. So, you know, we're connecting with our patrons, we're connecting with our donors and we're connecting them to kind of each other. Right. So our donors can see, you know, every day we're posting, you know, 3 or 4 times a day, you know, the materials we're making available free of charge thanks to our donor support. This is who's receiving them. This is how it's impacting the development and practice of their faith. So it's it's it's selling the story. And so from, from a fundraising kind of point of view the impact of donors kind of seeing, you know, where they're where their money's, you know, what their money's doing is, is kind of it's it's important. And then from a patrons or clients point of view, you know, they want to know what's what's new, what's happening, what's what's the organization up to who we share client stories as well. So they get to, you know, read about, you know, people they might actually know. Because the blind community is super small and the blind Catholic community is even smaller. So a lot of them know each other. So yeah, social media is huge for us. We're on Facebook. Instagram. They're they're probably our top two platforms. Aisling Redican: We use Twitter a lot as well. Not to really the extent that Facebook and Instagram not to the same extent, but and then YouTube we use for like every month we'll upload some kind of video highlights of new audiobooks that we've done. So we'll upload like a three minute clip so people can hear it. They can get a little taste of what the talking books about. And then if they like it, they can call us or email us to order it. So that's what we use kind of YouTube for. But Facebook and Instagram are probably our, our biggest platforms in terms of social media. And it's also great for, for kind of finding new patrons or reconnecting with patrons who've lost touch. You know, if they see something shared by someone and. Oh, yeah, Xavier Society, I remember them or. Oh, I've never heard about these guys before. They provide free, free Braille and audiobooks. Awesome. I want to reach out to them. So they're. Yeah. Social media. I'm always amazed, like how 40, 50 years ago, how people kind of found out about us because. Yeah, it's not like we were, you know, being shouted from the rooftops or anything. Yeah, yeah. So it's amazing. Yeah. We love social media. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: One of my final questions is this one, do you have any specific projects that you are working on that you would like to tell our listeners about? Aisling Redican: Yeah. I don't know if I'm giving anything away here, but. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Any top secrets? Aisling Redican: Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe I can announce this, but we are working to make the Roman missile available in large print at the minute. Yeah. So as you can imagine, you know, a lot of priests, the the average age is kind of skewing older. And a lot of, you know, older priests are losing their vision and things like that, but they're not going to learn Braille. They're not going to. Right, right. You know, they're not going to be able to use you know, audiobook player at the altar or anything like that. So they're more comfortable with print, but they just need something big enough to see. So we are in the process of, I guess, getting the rights and making sure everything's good on that end to make it available in large print and maybe sometime in the future. But I'm not gonna, you know, I don't want to get anyone's hopes up yet, but that's kind of the aim. With that, I'm trying to think, what else do we got going on in the pipeline? There's a lot, you know, we're just trying to keep up with the technology. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah. Aisling Redican: It's everything is just going crazy fast. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Aisling Redican: But we're trying to, to find a way to kind of automate our processes. So we're working with a company called Daisy pipeline, and we hope to be able to kind of sometime in the future, use that to kind of automate our Braille and hopefully audio production. But but it's in the very kind of baby infant stages. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am certainly impressed with the work that the society has done on the part that it has played in my life personally. I continue to read your books. I continue to engage with with your staff and your team. And I want to thank you for having done this for, you know, free of charge. I mean, like, my goodness, it it must take a lot of donor ships in order to get everything done, would you say? Aisling Redican: Yeah. And, you know, we're we're super blessed to not just serve you, Donna, but all of our our clients free of charge, thanks to thanks to our faithful donor base. And that's it's it's, you know, a mix of individual donors. We have a lot of clients like yourself who support us small family foundations that that donate to us and bequests as well. So yeah, we you know, we're very blessed to have been able to do what we do for 126 years. But it is not it ain't cheap that way. And but again we have a very faithful donor base who kind of ensure that, you know, we keep chugging along. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, if someone wanted to contact you, could you give us the phone numbers once more in the website? Aisling Redican: Absolutely. So again, it's our website is https://XavierSocietyForTheBlind.org. That's X A V I E R Society for the Blind.org. Our email is [email protected]. And then our phone numbers. We have a toll free one which is (800) 637-9193 and a 212 area code which is (212) 473-7800. And yeah, be sure to follow us on, on Facebook and Instagram or whatever platform you use because, you know, that's where you hear all that's new. You get to hear some client stories and, you know, other news pertaining to the organization. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Aisling, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a pleasure. It's been a privilege. And if ever you wanted to come back to talk about anything that you're doing or any announcement that you'd like to make, please do not hesitate to get in touch with us. Aisling Redican: Well, thank you so much again, Donna. This has been a real pleasure. And yeah, we appreciate your help getting the word out. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. And you take care and we will talk to you again very soon. Aisling Redican: All right, Donna, thank you, thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye now. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #77: Ask Advocate Donna | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-02-02-2026/ In this practical episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan introduces her monthly "Ask Advocate Donna" feature, an advocacy-focused segment designed to help listeners think on their feet, build confidence, and approach everyday barriers with courage and strategy. She opens with a favorite quote about speaking and listening with care, then leads a quick "word game" that contrasts respect vs. disrespect and courteous vs. condescending, urging advocates to keep respect front and center, ignore disrespect when it arises, and aim for genuine courtesy rather than talking down to others. Donna then shares three listener-inspired stories that turn real-life challenges into advocacy lessons: a blind student excluded from a school play because of assumptions about learning lines and stage cues; a child who uses a wheelchair being denied a kitten because adults doubt her ability to care for it; and a hard-of-hearing retiree barred from a community concert despite using hearing aids effectively. In each case, Donna breaks down what advocacy looks like, who should get involved, why speaking up matters, and how persistence, often with support from parents, allies, or the broader community, can change attitudes and remove unfair barriers. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, I'm Donna, and welcome to the second Remarkable World commentary from me for the month of February 2026. I started in January to include the Ask Advocate Donna feature every month, and this is a rollover from my Ask Donna Advocacy in Action podcast, because after having received so much feedback, comments, and thoughts from my listeners, I wanted to continue in this mode. And every month I'll be bringing you the Ask Advocate Donna feature. I have restructured it and what I'm doing is trying to share stuff with you and encourage you to think on your feet when it comes to advocacy. Be not afraid of advocacy. Embrace it. Cherish it, and let's roll with it. Okay. I have a quote I like to start with. Speak in such a way that others love to listen to you. And listen in such a way that others love to speak to you. I like that quote. Okay, I want to start with a word game, and many of my listeners have said to me that they really appreciate this word game because I give you two sets of words, and I encourage you to think about how you view these words. I'll tell you how I view these words. And before I continue, please do not hesitate to send me your feedback to Donna Jordan at gmail.com. That's d o. N at. So let's dive into the word game for this month. Okay, here we go. What do you think of these two words respect versus disrespect. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you think that respect is something that advocates need to keep uppermost in their minds? Do you agree with me that respect is earned? It is not given. It is earned. It is not given. If you engage in disrespect. I don't think that advocacy would be meaningful or productive. Sometimes it is awfully difficult to avoid disrespect when engaging and communicating with others because, you know, people either inadvertently or intentionally give out disrespect either that they're angry, upset, disappointed, or just plain old mad. So they offer disrespect. My advice to this is ignore the disrespect. Just keep on going. Keep on showing respect and it will all come out in the better for you. Okay, so here is the next set of words. Courteous or Condescend. Are some people courteous to you meaningfully, or they're just being courteous for being courteous? Sick do they? Condescend and condescension often comes when someone is perceived to be overly courteous. It comes across as being, you know, condescension or it's con. It's being condescending. One has to be really careful when it comes to the difference between courteous and condescending. So courteous versus condescending. What is it going to be? I do my best to be courteous, but boy oh boy, sometimes it is awfully difficult to avoid the condescension route. Let's stay on the side of being courteous. For what it's worth. Let's do our best to always be courteous. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Sometimes it doesn't take much and sometimes it takes a lot. But courteous or courtesy is always better than condescension. That's my word game for this month. And now I have three stories to share with you for this month. And let's see what you think of it. Write to me at Donna Jonathan at gmail.com and tell me what you think. Here's the title to the first story. A blind student excluded from a play. And I'm going to tell you now that a lot of these stories come from listeners providing me or sending me their stories, and I think that they are worth my sharing them with you. Here is a story. Gala was told that she could not participate in the play in a play and why? Because she was told that there would be no way for her to learn her lines if she could not read, and she could not know when to enter the flow of the play. She could not work with cues, and she would not know how to move around the stage. The thing is, gala was told all of this by a teacher who never even took the time to work with gala to find out how she did things, what technology he used, what techniques she used. But the teacher falsely assumed all because she was vision impaired. She would not know how to deal with cues, how to move around the stage, how to learn her lines, everything else. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What would you advise gala to do? Well, I would advise gala first. Don't give up gala. I would then advise gala to go to her parents with this. I know it's a very bitter sea to swallow, a bitter pill to swallow. But if gala wants to continue on in a meaningful way, productive way, and be a part of everything she needs to go to her parents. And this is what gala eventually did. First she cried and cried about it. And then she thought and thought about it. You know, gala was a youngster. I think she was about 12 years old and she took matters into her own hands after a few weeks and went to her parents, who then went to the teacher involved. It was a very tough fight, but everything worked out at the end. The parent gala and her parents had to work very, very hard to convince this teacher. But it worked out. And there were other teachers that gala and her parents appealed to, and they were able to help their colleague understand. Okay. So what is advocacy in this case? Advocacy is advocating for Gala to be a part of the play. And who gets involved in advocacy gala, her parents, her teacher and others. Why is advocacy necessary? Because we need to break down the barrier that is being presented to gala. Not being able to participate in the play because it is perceived that she can't because she is vision impaired. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How do you get involved in advocacy based on this case? You get involved. You know the child, the student, the student, the parent, the teacher, everybody. And when do you get involved in advocacy? In this case, when it is perceived that there is a barrier? Okay, here's the second story and here's the title of this one. No pet for a child with a disability. Yes. In the home Itself. And here is the story as related to us by a listener. Carna had kept hounding her parents to help to have her or to get a pet for her. Okay. She wanted so badly to have a kitten. Her parents told her no, because they did not think that she would be able to take care of the kitten. And why? Because they felt that little Kala could not look after the kitten, to clean his litter box, to give him his food, to give him his drink, to groom him, and everything else. Kala was in a wheelchair. So what would you advise Kala to do? I think I would advise Carla to again go to my parents, but Carla needs to develop a plan as to how she would answer questions from her parents, such as, well, Carla, how would you clean the litter box? So Carla has to find a way to tell her parents, or show her parents that she is serious about wanting the kitten and how she can take care of it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. How she can clean the litter box. How she can give Kitty his food. Kitty his water. Groom. Kitty. I know it's kind of a lot for a kid. I believe Carla was about ten years old, so it makes things. Makes things even more interesting when the child is younger. Maybe not thinking out clearly as to how they would look after their pet kitten. And you can't blame the parents themselves for being apprehensive because, you know, they think, well, our little daughter is in a wheelchair. How is she going to look after the kitten? So it's teamwork, it's team effort, it's team team everything between the child and the parents. And it's a lot of hard work. It may or may not work, but it has to start somewhere. Okay, so advocacy is advocating for little Carla to have a pet kitten. And who gets involved in this? Carla and her parents and her family. Family in the home. To start with, an advocacy is necessary because little Carla really wants to have a kitten, despite the fact that she is in a wheelchair. She has to show and convince her family that she can look after her pet kitten. And how do you get involved in advocacy? In this case, it's little Carla having to take the initiative. It's hard for a ten year old, but there are lessons to be learned here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you get involved in advocacy when you really want to have something. And oftentimes when you get involved in advocacy, it changes attitudes. It changes perspectives. It changes assumptions. Let's remember that. All right. Let's go to the third story for this month. Okay. And it's all about a retiree who has been barred from a social event. Not very nice, is it? And here's the story that was submitted to us by one of our listeners. Roy was too old, for he was told that he was too old to attend a social event in his community. And the event had to do with attending a concert at a concert hall. Roy was hard of hearing, but he used his hearing aids extremely proficiently. He appealed to the event organizer, but nobody was listening. Now, on the surface I would say this is so trivial, but when you take a deeper dive and you think of it, you have on one side, Roy being very, very able to attend a concert because he has hearing aids that enables him to listen to what's going on at the concert. On the other side of the picture, you have organizers who say, well, you know, Roy can't hear very well, so how is he going to hear what's going on? How is he going to appreciate it? And it all boils down to attitude perception. The one side thinks, oh, because he can't hear very well, how can he enjoy it? So therefore he is barred from attending the concert. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: On the other side, you have Roy, who is perfectly able to enjoy a concert, and I would advise Roy to go for it. He needs to convince the organizers. He needs to get others on his side. You can't do it alone. I don't think he can do it alone. But he needs help. He needs support. Okay. What is advocacy here? Advocacy is advocating for Roy to be at a concert despite his being hard of hearing. And who gets involved? Roy starts the ball rolling, and he starts by going to the organizers with the well laid out plan to show them that, yeah, he wears hearing aids or he uses hearing aids, but he is perfectly capable of enjoying a concert. Advocacy is necessary because Roy wants to attend the concert. How do you get involved in advocacy? It starts with Roy and he has to. And I would say he needs to involve others to get them on his side to convince the organizers. When do you do it? When you want to attend the concert? Of course. Okay. What is your advice? What would you suggest? Write to me at [email protected] and let me know what you think. Okay, that's it for me for this month. Month of February 2026. Ask advocate Donna and I thank you for dropping by to listen in. Take care and I'll see you next month. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #76: The Cost of Vision Loss | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-02-01-2026/ In this thought-provoking episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan reflects on "the cost of vision loss" and how it can abruptly and profoundly reshape a person's life, especially when a child loses their sight. She describes how vision loss forces children and their parents to find "workarounds" for navigating a fast-moving world, while also confronting social attitudes and the real-life barriers that can suddenly appear in everyday situations. Donna also expands the conversation to adulthood, noting how vision loss in the workplace can change how an employer and co-workers perceive the individual, and can create risks like being sidelined, limited in advancement, or even downsized. She points out that the impact ripples into healthcare and education as well, where medical professionals and educators must adapt to help people manage shifting needs, whether learning is happening in-person, virtually, or online. Donna credits a recent conversation with advocate Ian White for raising her awareness, and she hopes to continue the discussion with him in a future episode. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, I'm Donna and welcome to my Remarkable World commentary first podcast of On My Own for February 2026. You know, I never really gave much credence or much thought to this topic that I'm about to discuss with you, and I only did so after my podcast with the great Ian White of Toronto, terrific advocate who has worked tirelessly to ensure that persons stay connected. He was the CEO of visionaries chapter for the CCP for quite some time, and he retired or stepped back quite probably a few months ago. And he is now in moving in a different direction, but I wanted to talk about this topic for today. Based on the podcast interview that I had with Ian, and I'd like to thank him for raising my awareness, and I apologize to myself that I never really thought about this topic before. Okay, it's all about the cost of vision loss for the child who loses their vision. It means that their future has been changed dramatically and drastically, and now them and their parents will have to find workarounds, as I call it, to deal with vision loss for the parent. It's also dramatic and drastic because they now have to find ways to help their child to grow up in a world that is so fast moving, to help them navigate the landscape and to help them deal with both social and artificial attitudes as well as real life attitudes. That's what vision loss does for a parent. And in the workplace, it means that if someone has lost their vision while working, they too have to find ways to deal with their vision loss. Things will never be the same. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The employer looks at the one losing their vision differently now, for better or for worse, and their co-workers do the same. The person losing their vision in the workplace now has to find ways to cope, find ways to keep up. And they run the risk of being, you know, either downsized or being stymied at their job or being told that they can't go any further because of their loss of vision. That is the cost of vision loss. The medical community as well suffers a lot from, you know, the cost of vision loss because now and this may not be a good way of putting it, but a good way of looking at it, they too, have to work harder to ensure that their patients can deal most effectively with vision loss. This is what vision loss brings. This is what the cost of vision loss is all about. And then when we think of education, both in the classroom, virtually in the classroom, face to face, virtually and online, everything changes with vision loss, health wise, education wise, socially, everything changes with the cost of vision loss. But we don't realize it until it happens to us. And maybe there is some little thing that I, Donna, can do to start raising more awareness to the meaning of the term, the cost of vision loss. And I am hoping to have Ian White back on my podcast, Remarkable World Commentary, sometime early in the new year to continue his discussion. A very, very interesting and insightful discussion all about the cost of vision loss. I'm Donna, thanking you for coming in and listening to me. Have a great day. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #72: Interview with Robin East, IT Analyst / Accessibility Specialist, Canada Revenue Agency | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-01-28-2026/ In this wide-ranging episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with her longtime friend, mentor, and fellow "barrier buster" Robin East for a candid conversation about advocacy, law, and the lived reality of navigating inaccessible systems. East traces his path back to Saskatchewan, describing how he became legally blind in 1982 at age 22 and how the struggle to access basic information, like textbooks and timely research, sparked his lifelong push for equal access. From there, he reflects on his 2007 tenure as national president of the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians and explains why he insisted on a "rights-holder" approach (not "stakeholders"), including coalition-building across blindness organizations and backing Jodhan's landmark Charter challenge on inaccessible federal websites, an outcome he says proved that systemic change can be forced when communities organize and persist. The interview also revisits East's own landmark 2008 transportation victory tied to flying with a guide dog, what triggered it, how he pursued it (including the Federal Court of Appeal), and what the rulings mean in practical terms for space and seating accommodations. From his vantage point inside the federal public service and through transportation advisory work, East then lays out why progress still feels slow: inaccessible legacy systems, flawed procurement, and a culture that treats accessibility as an afterthought instead of a requirement "from the get-go." He distinguishes "checking the box" from real compliance by emphasizing meaningful engagement early in design and policy-making, measurable timelines, and enforcement, calling out that the Accessible Canada Act's teeth (including potential penalties) haven't been used and that mandated reviews appear overdue. The episode closes with a call to action: disability organizations (both "of" and "for" people with disabilities) must rebuild coalitions, scrutinize accessibility plans, and press regulators to act, while also acknowledging burnout and the need for a funded, coordinated national forum to turn frustration into a concrete action plan. TRANSCRIPT Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ASCP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Remarkable World commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and a stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was humbled and greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest and change maker, whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. It is my pleasure. It is my privilege. It is my honor to welcome my friend, my mentor and my advisor of many years, Robin East. Welcome to my podcast. Robin East: Oh, thank you, Donna, and I appreciate it. I listen to your your your introduction of you and I'm going, oh my God, is this my Donna? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We go back a long way and I will never forget the first time we met face to face. I think it was in New Westminster, BC. There I was, running for second VP of the EBC, standing right next to you. You were six feet five and I was five feet two. Just imagine. Robin East: Yeah, yeah, yeah, quite a pair. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We've done much together, buddy. We've, you know, the charter challenge, barrier Free Canada. And we're still kicking, aren't we? Robin East: We certainly are. And continue to move rights forward. Right. It's the only it's the only way to go. Right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is. Robin East: It's it's it's how we it's how we have to operate. Because for every right we successfully put into place and and and and make governments know that it is our right. Then another piece comes along that they're trying to push down and away from us. And so we got to keep pulling up the pieces that that we have succeeded in, in the past. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. Now, Robin, take us back to your beginnings in Saskatchewan. What early experiences, community work, union involvement, or your first encounters with in accessible systems set you on the path to become an advocate and technologist? Robin East: Well, I think gosh, we go back a long, long ways, Don, and we could be here for weeks. I it but But when I became legally blind back in 1982 I was 22 years of age. By the time I was 26, 27. I basically did not have any sight left. And, and through that period of time, it was moving through to get a A university degree. So I moved from the University of Saskatchewan to Polytech to get a behavior therapist certificate. And then I moved from there to go into get a social work degree through the University of Saskatchewan and University of Regina. And all through that, looking at what was available for a person that was a blind Canadian citizen in Canada at the time. And as such, how do you address things? And the first thing, of course, as you know, is always the access to information. And at that very early start, it was access to textbooks. You go into a class, you try to get a textbook. By the time you get your textbook on audio tape, that class is nearly over, if not already over. So you're always using second hand or old, old, old type documentation. So you're never having up to date information. Same with any research that you do going into the library. Nothing. Nothing accessible back in those early 80 years. Right. So so all of those started that lifelong piece on advocacy. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow, wow. When you became national president of the Alliance for the Equality of Blind Canadians in 2007, you championed a right holders approach. What did that look like in practice, and what do you consider to be your top 2 or 3 wins from that period? Robin East: I think just the recognition that we as a group in community, we as persons with disabilities, we are not stakeholders. And that was the term that's often used in government and is still used in government from time to time today. Well, we are not stakeholders. A stakeholder is a person that holds the prize for two competing factions, and whoever wins that stakeholder gives them the pride. We're we're not on the side. We're in the thick of things. It's nothing about us without us. And so a rights holder was a piece that I pushed forward way back in 2006, 2007. And any time I met with government and they brought up the word stakeholder, I promptly shot it down and said, sorry, but if that's the case, we're not here because we don't we don't want to be on the sidelines. We want to be listened to. We want to be part of the conversation, and we want to be part of the solution. So bringing forward rights holders was was an important piece. And to me that that is a a huge, huge, huge win for us. And another piece that we did was way back then in around that time, we started a coalition of blind organizations and we call it the Coalition of Rights Holders. And that that went for a number of years. And then it turned into a group called Now, I can't remember it. Robin East: I can remember the acronym KG. So but I can't remember what it stood for. I have to go back and look it up. It's been so long since that even has been into place. But but that helped bring together a lot of the blindness organizations that were all striving to get monies from government and striving to make a name for themselves and to move advocacy. And it it helped bring us all together so that we could all look at what are the pieces that we need to come together as and move as one so that we can resolve some of those issues of the day. So that was an important piece. And of course in and around that time, there was a lovely lady named Donna Johnson who was trying to take through the court challenge program her case forward in regards to access for government sites and so on. And so to me, getting the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians to step up to the plate and back, Donna, in that huge fight that she won way back in 2010 and then again in 2012. That, folks, is a landmark decision. And it's a it's a watershed moment for the blind community in regards to access rights. Thank you, Donna, for that fight. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you, Robin, for standing with me. And in 2010, when my charter challenged case against the Government of Canada over inaccessible federal websites, was decided, you were a vocal ally. Okay. From your vantage point, what did that ruling change inside government and across the broader accessibility movement? Robin East: Well, I think it it showed both government. Officials as well as community that if one decides to take on a piece of advocacy to take a look at what you think should be your right as a Canadian citizen, and to move that forward, it showed that it could be done. And to me, that that was the biggest piece. It, it it gave it gave people the permission to. Speak up for themselves to look for allies and and and and with those allies move what we would call the disability rights agenda forward in Canada. So to me that that was the biggest piece of course, having appropriate websites being accessible. External for public facing sites is is extremely important and to have it monitored by the court so that it would be done appropriately. Was was as I said, it's a watershed moment and it's a piece of history that we will always go back to the the whole aspect of having an accessible site when you're going on with a screen reader to be able to get information is is unparalleled in regards to what we do as, as blind citizens the the the. The next step to that was to try to get the internal sites and so on within the Government of Canada to be accessible, similar to the external sites. And there is now a recent court challenge that is to address that, plus to bring up and and relook at the what we call the jot in one case. And now this is the other two case and it's going to be looking at the internal applications, forms, documents and websites to make sure that all of those pieces are accessible as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, Robin, I still remember that very famous fall day when I was just sitting there doing nothing and you phoned me and you said, I think you need to get downtown to see David Baker. And I said, why the hell for? And he says, because we won. We won. It wasn't just me, Donna. It was our team. And you were there with me. You know. But you know what? You won a landmark case in 2008 against the Canadian Transportation Agency. With the decision related to your traveling with your guide dog. Walk us through the problem you faced, how you built the case, and what the ruling really actually required of airlines, and what still is not happening on the ground today. Robin East: Well, that that that's quite an interesting piece. And so back in 2006, 2007 and part of 2008, the whole other aspect of travel with a guide dog was that out of the goodness of the hearts of the carriers. For for the for the various airlines. They would give us an extra seat space for room for our service dogs when we got onto a plane. But that was only if there was room. And so this all and that came about way back in 1974 by a young gal named Gail Riddle out of Penticton. Who who basically got on a plane to go to Ottawa to, to for and I can't remember the reasons why she did that. I was it for an award or something? I can't recall that part, but she was going with her guide dog, and the air carrier wanted to muzzle her dog. And. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was horrible. So she finally said fine, she would put the muzzle on. She flew to Ottawa, but unbeknownst to her on that plane were MPs and and once they landed in Ottawa, there was a gathering of the media and that airline was put to shame. And after that, the airlines welcomed guide dogs on their planes. But again, it was still voluntary practice and only if there was room. So Gail Riddell started it all moving forward all the way up to 2006, 2007, I did a lot of traveling for work with my dog guide, and while I was traveling in most times the seat was available for my dog to lie comfortably, but from time to time, that seat was not available. Robin East: And when I was going from Vancouver to Kelowna. I was on this little prop plane person sitting in the aisle seat. I had to sit in the window seat. It was only a two seater on each side, and my dog was sitting under my feet, and my feet were on top of my dog. And as you know, I'm very tall, fellow. So my knees were up by my chin and that was the most horrible flight I ever had. I was so concerned that my dog was going to get hurt. Right. So that's that's why I made the decision to take the airline to task. And I won at the at the Canada Transportation Agency level. But the airline wasn't satisfied with that ruling from the Canada Transportation Agency. So they decided to go to court. So, so, yeah. So when I went to the Federal Court of Appeal, you have to do it by yourself, because even though we have these rights, all of a sudden Everybody has to have and not be biased. So they they can't really support you in the court. So you're all alone. So you got to file all of these documents and so on. But thankfully, a mr. stack from a lawyer from the Saskatoon, Saskatchewan agreed that he would help me file the paperwork and, and take on this particular airline. Robin East: And at the end of it all, we we did win the Federal Court of Appeal. And we, to this day, have the right to be able to take our service dogs on a plane and and, and get the extra seat for the room, depending on the size. So the ruling was based on the size. Small, medium, large. If it's small, you don't need the extra room. If it's a medium or large, then you do. And then you have to you have to address it through the medical model, of course. And and and show, you know, your dog's height, your dog's weight, your dog's length to prove that it's a medium to large sized dog so you can get the plane. So so that's still in place. And that was rolled into the Council of Canadians with disabilities when on one seat, one fare, because when they did the one seat one fare, they forgot about us with our service dogs. So we were so we were able to, after my win, then roll that into that particular case. So now when we say one seat, one fare, it does include our service dogs. But that case is still still set forth and, and nothing has changed in regards to that. So that's how we now have the right to take our dogs on any of those carriers. We just need to make sure we have the proper paperwork to do it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But are you engaged with other issues with regard to, you know, traveling in addition to the guide dog issue right now? Robin East: Well, I sit on the Canada Transportation Agency Advisory Committee and I represent Independent Living Canada. I'm the vice chair for that national organization. And so so we bring up issues that are barriers for transportation federally. So buses that cross provincial line, ferries, air carriers and trains, those are the, the the main ones. We also look at issues in regards to Catsa, which is the, the Federal Authority for security for, for airlines airports. And, and look at the good work that they've been doing in getting people through security and addressing that. And, and of all of the organizations within the airports and the airlines. I have to say that Catsa has really stepped up to the plate in regards to access and and treating persons with disabilities with dignity. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have to agree with you. Catsa has done a marvelous job. I really am proud of them, you know. Yeah. Now you've spent years inside the federal public service as an ex NSA analyst and accessibility specialist at the. No, sorry. Cra. I'm sorry. From the inside looking out. What are the hardest, you know, nuts to crack procurement, legacy systems, culture or something else. And how do you get out of all of this? Robin East: Oh, Donna, that is a huge egg to crack. Go for it. I would say that at this point in time all the above that you mentioned are barriers for persons of disabilities to address. And although we have the Accessible Canada Act that that came into force on July 11th of 2019 we are still trying to address accessibility issues within the government of Canada. And, and that includes the internal pieces such as websites applications, forms, documents, all of those are still very much not accessible. And we would suggest that at least 80%, if not more, is not accessible. So there's a long way to go before those pieces become accessible. Their main systems, like employment systems that you have to access as an employee systems that you have to access as a manager, those systems are not accessible. And they're based on a what I would call a bastardised code in that they don't even use the appropriate code of the day. They've had to manipulate the code and create part of the mainframe application pieces. And when they did that those applications can't be rendered accessible because of the code that they've dealt with. They have to actually rebuild everything from scratch, or rebuild front end models so that it can go into the mainframes and reach in and grab the information and put it out into an accessible form that is going to cost millions of dollars. And here we are, what, in 2026? I'm seven years after the Accessible Canada Act came into force, and they have hardly touched any of that in regards to making it accessible. They roughly have 13 slash 14 years left before their magic, 2040 of Canada becoming fully accessible. And in 14 years, they're not going to make it because they've already had a third of that. Robin East: Seven years has gone by and they've they've hardly even made a mark in regards to accessibility, and that's just within what we call the IT world. If we look at the procurement of things again to procure pieces that are accessible, you you have to first do the research. When you do procure it, you got to test to make sure it's accessible. And then if it is accessible, you can go ahead with the contract. Well, I believe that those contracts are, are still have many issues because a lot of times when you're looking at the information to procure that information might say that the piece is accessible, but after you've tested it, you've discovered that indeed it is not accessible. There's exemptions that, that make it that, that they try to push forward so that they say it's accessible. But or without looking at this piece or this piece or this piece, this would be accessible. Well, we need all those pieces so that everybody can use it appropriately. And that's just not happening yet. So so procurement still needs to happen. And even though we've rolled in the standards what we call the En 301549 standard. So that's from the European Union. And it's now a worldwide standard. And the web content accessible guidelines are now incorporated in that standard. We we are still fighting to make sure that when we do procure things that it is accessible. But that's, that's, that's going to take years yet to come into play. And that's where the attitude and the culture is, is still a piece that we need to work on. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How do we tackle the attitude and the culture. And why is it taking so long? Robin East: It one step at a time. And if you think of it this way and out of sight, out of mind. So if you're not thinking about accessibility it's out of your mind, then you just continue doing things. And so until we make it in the face of everybody and have everybody when you create a document, you make it accessible from the get go. If you're going to develop an application, you make it accessible from the get go. If you're going to change policy, change directives, you need to involve persons with disabilities from the get go. You can't you can't bring people with disabilities in the final draft and say, we are now going to consult with you. What do you think? And then put it forward. That's like baking a cake without the sugar and then try to add it in afterwards. It just doesn't work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've had this told to me so many times, but does anybody listening? Robin East: I think they're starting to, but only because more and more pressure is getting put on by persons with disabilities. They're getting more organized within and outside of government. And because of that, I think that it's slowly happening, but it's going to take much, much more time than I wish I wish it that it would, but it's going to take much, much more time than, than what we thought. And I don't think that we will reach that magical, fully accessible by 2040. I think they're going to have to extend the Accessible Canada Act. I think that the government may have to find monies to put into place for some of the huge projects for the various Departments and agencies to build accessible pieces because they've left it for decades. And not done it because they kept thinking, well, we really don't have to. They go back to, oh, it's only 1 or 2 people, or it's only 5% of people that we have to worry about. Well, under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 15, of which you laid claim with your case, Donna, the the whole aspect of it only takes one to discriminate. And that's what I keep telling folks. It only takes one. So it's not 1% or 5% or 25%. It's just one individual. If if you can't make it accessible for that individual, then you have failed. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You were seconded to help stand up the Accessible Canada Acts compliance function. So from a practitioner's perspective, what's the difference between checking the box and demonstrating real compliance? And what evidence should regular, regular regulatory regulators be asking for? Robin East: Well, the checklists are gone, Donna. You can't just check a box saying, oh, let me see. I have this issue. I'm going to phone Donna Jodhan. Oh, hi, Donna. We've had this chat. This is what we're doing. Have a great day. And now you've checked the box. We've consulted with a person with a disability. So now let's move on. That's. That's gone. Those were the days prior to the Accessible Canada Act. Now, what has to happen is that persons with disabilities must be consulted in a meaningful way. So we don't like to use the word consulting. We talk about meaningful engagement, and we talk about that engagement happening at the beginning. When you start talking about building a policy or a directive or an application. Let's bring in persons with disabilities. Let's have let's have those meaningful discussions, which is give and take. And let's build the accessibility pieces in that's that's what that's all about. We no longer look at the checklists, right? They they were handy in the day, but it's not a piece that we look at anymore. We look at. Did you actually meaningfully engage with persons with disabilities? Yes or no? When did you do that? At the end. In the middle or at the beginning? You know, so so those are the new styles of checklists. Robin East: It's questions of how did you give dignity to persons with disabilities in regards to your attitude, your culture, and, and, and how you are looking at putting a plan together to make your area accessible so each department and agency has to do that. Any Crown corporation has to do that. Any large corporation has to do that. So with all of those pieces we end up with these accessible action, not action plans, but accessible plans and then accessible reports. And we have to look at those plans and reports, and we have to start saying, okay, are they just giving us gobbledygook? Are they giving us bluff like they used to do under the employment equity plans. This work is ongoing. That's not good enough anymore. What are the barriers? What's the solution and what's the timeline to get that solution in place? That's what we're now looking for. If we're starting to see delays or places where in the plans the information is now removed because they couldn't get it together. They didn't have any money. They're coming up with all kinds of excuses. That's not good enough. And we as a community now have to look at those plans. Pick a handful of departments, agencies, crown corporations and start challenging those plans to see where they're at, because one third or 33%, if you will, of the time to 2040 is already up. Robin East: So there should be lots of stuff there that should have moved things forward, but we're seeing little progress. So it's how do we do that as a community? And then also how do we then look at that accessible Canada Act unit? And the accessibility Commissioner, we need to report to that unit. What we find is community and get that unit also to start looking at those plans and reports and then start challenging those federal entities and, and force them to make things accessible. And then if they are at fault and they're not moving things forward, then the accessibility commissioner can find those entities up to $250,000 per day until they render it accessible. But we haven't seen any of that in seven years. So if you've if you've got if you got teeth in a, in a, in an act, but you never use it there, you might as well pull the teeth out because it's no good. It's time for the the accessibility commissioner. And the chief accessibility officer to start moving on and addressing these departments and agencies and stop accepting the excuses that they're giving. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How do we make them do that, these two particular individuals. Robin East: It only comes from community, and we need to do our due diligence. We need to we need to get together as groups, start looking at two or 3 or 4 plans from various departments and agencies and start criticizing in a very professional way the information that's there. And, and to show the accessibility commissioner and chief accessibility officer why this plan or these plans in these particular spots have failed and and get the accessibility commissioner to do an audit and address those pieces. But and I guess that's the important piece we need to assist the accessibility commissioner. He's only got a small team, so we need to to assist the the them to start looking at some of these pieces. And I think by putting it in writing and sending it to them, they'll have no choice but to review, study and then put an audit forward and start addressing. The House, if you will, the Government of Canada's House in regards to accessibility through the accessibility plans. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You interacted personally with either of these two individuals. Robin East: I have not at this point in time. Yeah. We just received a new accessibility Commissioner. Just in. He's just in place for, what, maybe a year? So. No, I have not. I have not met him yet. I would like to meet him with at some point in time. And I think that that will come, but I think more importantly organizations need to talk with the heads of those organizations, and then those organizations should get together similar to that coalition of rights holders that I talked about earlier. Start talking about what what we need to do and then and then asking for a meeting and have that accessibility commissioner come to them and all of those organizations then sit down and simply say, here's the information. How are we going to work this out so that we can address the accessibility barriers that are still in the place where where the solutions are not being resolved. And and how do we force entities to make things accessible and take more seriously the Accessible Canada Act? If you will, if you look at the bilingual act if we were to put something out in only French, English, Canada would be most upset if we were to put out something only in, in English, then French Canada would be mostly upset. And with that, if we are to do presentations and so on, and if we don't have ASL and, and American Sign Language in French present that is considered an official language in Canada under the Accessible Canada Act. Robin East: And so that's a new piece that we have to add. So when we're looking at all of these pieces, we need to say, why is it that the bilingual act is so strong that you can't send out a document unless it's appropriately in both official languages? Then why can't we do the same thing? Under the Accessible Canada Act? Why? Why can't we simply say you cannot procure this unless it is actually accessible? You can't build this app unless it's actually accessible. You can't put forward this application on your websites unless it's actually accessible. You can't put this form in place unless it's accessible and so on and so on and so on. Right. These these are pieces of interest that I think we need to look at and say, why is it this act of bilingualism is so strong and very important to us in Canada? Why is it that the Accessible Canada Act, which has teeth, is the teeth are not being used. That that's to me of interest. And I think the community needs to start asking that question now. Lastly, just out of interest, the Accessible Canada Act has stated very clearly that there should be a review after five years. Well, we're into year seven. I haven't heard of anything about a review yet. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Neither have. Robin East: I, you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Know. Robin East: So? So where is that? That's in the act. But it's silent. Why? Why? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, what can we do? And as my clock starts to wind down, I'm going to ask you this huge question. Are you willing to lead such an initiative to force, you know, force feed the companies to, to step up to the plate? No review in five years. What should we do? What can we do? You tell me. Robin East: I honestly believe in the organizations of and for persons with disabilities. And I say oven for because there are there are two types of organizations for people with disabilities. The of are the persons with disabilities that run those organizations themselves. The four are organizations that are usually not persons of disabilities, but are organizations claiming to fight for the rights of persons with disabilities? Some are, some are not. And but but I think we need to pull in all of them. And I think that we as a community need to start looking at how do we make the government of Canada stand up and take seriously the Accessible Canada Act legislation and move forward? The access, right, that we still don't have, even though we've had the act in place for seven years. So it's a matter of pulling those people together. Can I do that myself? No. Can you do that yourself, Donna? No, no, we need to have a number of people coming up to the plate and starting to move that forward. And so that would be all of the national organisations of which I will not name because there are so many of them. And there's lots for the blind, there's lots for people in chairs, there's lots for people with neurodiversity and the list goes on. But we, we have to stop worrying about if I do this, then I'm not going to get this government grant. Right. That's part of the problem. We need to get people to start standing up and not worrying about those government grants and say, we need to work on behalf of our community, and we need to work Working alongside of the leadership within persons of disabilities themselves and and and ask the government and demand of government that changes need to be real and they need to come fast. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where do we get these leaders from? Robin East: I that's a good question. I think they're out there. Donna. You talk to many of them. I talk to many of them. It's time that we start asking the very question that you're asking. How how do we start moving this forward? What? What can you help to put things forward? And if each of us do that, then it's then I think we will be able to pull it together. But again, it's to get the fear of the people that are getting monies from government to be able to stand up to that same government, to say, you're doing this wrong, you need to fix this. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know you found it barrier free Saskatchewan and it has done very, very well. You also are part of my Barrier Free Canada organization. And now we are really at a turning point here. What are your final thoughts, Robyn? Where are we going and how are we going to get there? Robin East: Well, I think through barrier free Canada and all the Barrier free's that have set up across the country in the various provinces, like barrier free Saskatchewan in most cases, we now have provincial accessible acts that are sort of mirroring, but probably weaker than the National Accessible Canada Act. And they are to be working together. So I think it's a matter of starting to pull together coalitions. Again, Oven for persons with disabilities. Oven for organizations of of persons with disabilities. Oven. For services of. Of organizations for persons with disabilities. It's time to have that chat amongst all of us and seeing how can we address things. Maybe that is something we look at Accessible Standards Canada and say we need a grant to be able to pull all of these people together and have a huge forum two, three, four day conference so that we can come up with action plans and actions to move accessible rights forward in Canada. Maybe that's the way we do it. Donna. It's a matter of how do we address that? Through Accessible Standards Canada. And get a grant of money to, to put something like this forward, because I think it fits within their criteria to be able to give money for that. But it's it's hard when you are running your organizations, you're doing advocacy within your organizations, you're doing self-advocacy. Then to take another finger out of a pot and put it into another pot to help move that forward. So burnout is real. It happens. I've been there. It's not a pretty thing. So I think we need to be careful on the work that we put on the shoulders of folks. We all need to come up with our allies pull in the supports and come together in a forum. And then at the end of that forum, have an action plan that we can then move forward on for rights of persons with disabilities in Canada. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Robin has been a privilege and a pleasure to have interviewed you now, and I can only hope and pray that Something will happen in our lifetime, but something has already. But that something else will happen. I want to thank you for coming on to our interview, and we will chat soon. I am out of Canada right now. I'm returning to Canada on February the 2nd, but I'd like to touch base with you after that. Robin East: Well, it's a pleasure coming on and talking with you, Donna, and in your travels, be safe, be healthy, and stay encouraged. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You to, Robin, and we will be in touch. Robin East: Very good. Thank you. Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Robin East: Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Dining With Donna Podcast: Interview with Renée Rentmeester, Creator and Executive Producer, The Cooking Without Looking TV Show | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/dwd-01-08-2026/ On this Episode of Dining with Donna, Donna Jodhan sits down with Renée Rentmeester, the creator and executive producer of The Cooking Without Looking TV Show, for a lively conversation about food, accessibility, and changing how the world understands blindness. Renée shares her path from an early start in television to a long media career and entrepreneurial work, then explains what moved her to create a show that highlights blind and visually impaired cooks as capable, creative, and completely "everyday," without pity or stereotypes. Together, Donna and Renée talk about building a welcoming space where guests can be honest about vision loss while keeping the tone upbeat, practical, and empowering. The episode also delivers plenty of real-world kitchen takeaways for blind and visually impaired listeners. Renée and Donna explore sensory cooking, relying on smell, texture, thickness, and feel, along with tools, hacks, and strategies that boost confidence and safety in the kitchen. Renée explains why Cooking Without Looking embraces authenticity (including the occasional on-air mistake), how the show's virtual era expanded its reach, and what she hopes comes next as the program continues to grow across platforms. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan invites you to draw culinary inspiration from her podcast, Dining with Donna. Here, Donna serves up approachable step by step recipes, kitchen hacks, and meal themes. From quick weeknight dinners to comfort food classics and healthy meal prep with tips for cooking without relying on sight using sound, touch, aroma and smart tools. You'll build confidence, cook safely, and enjoy every bite. You can expect budget friendly ideas, seasonal specials, and the occasional guest chef. If this makes you hungry, grab your apron, subscribe and let's get cooking! One delicious, accessible meal at a time. Now let's dive in to today's episode. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch, and a stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in June of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law, and most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a changemaker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to treat. Renee Rentmeester, I'd like to welcome you to my Remarkable World commentary, and I'm very honored and privileged to have you be part of it. Renee Rentmeester: Well, thank you, Donna, I'm honored and privileged to be with you today. Thank you so much for having me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can't wait to get started because I'd like to know a lot more about you. So, Renee, for listeners meeting you for the first time, how would you describe your personal journey from your early years in television and journalism to becoming the creator and executive producer of the Cooking Without Looking TV show. Renee Rentmeester: Well, okay, I guess we should sit back and relax here for a moment. Go for it. No, no, I'm just joking. It's it's a long story. It started when I was like, 17, and I wanted to be in TV and be a reporter and all that sort of stuff, and I did that. I got out of high school early and I would go half days and I'd work in a TV station in town, professional TV station. And, you know, I think no matter where we come from, we all know that once you have your foot in the door, no matter what you're doing that's a plus, because if they know you, they're probably willing to hire you along the way? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Renee Rentmeester: So. So that did happen. I had some interesting stories along the way. I I was working as, like, an intern there, an unpaid intern, and then I got to be a receptionist, which I was paid. And then I got to be an assistant in the newsroom. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Renee Rentmeester: So then I I ended up being a reporter at a TV radio station. I'm. I'm from. I was born and raised in green Bay, Wisconsin, so I I got to be a reporter and a an editor over in Eau Claire, Wisconsin during college professional station. And then after that, I worked in Miami for 13 years for CBS. I did everything, you know, I was everything from the janitor to the general manager, and I, I was press and public relations manager. I was an advertising and PR copywriter. I was news assignment editor associate news producer, pretty much everything, you know. And then I decided to I decided to leave after 13 years, because I just thought I could do more on my own. You know, sometimes there's only so far you can go when you're working for someone else. So I started my own advertising and media relations company. And then I thought, well, I was always sitting on boards of non-profits because, you know, they get they get free advertising if you're sitting on their board. Right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Renee Rentmeester: So I I, I wanted to leave, like, a legacy. I wanted to do something different from everyone else. So I thought of blindness, and I just thought, well, you know, I don't know any blind people. That's what I thought to myself. I don't know any blind people. And it seems to me that there's this whole group of people that sort of is shoved off to the side in a manner of speaking. Like, you know, so many people don't know blind people. And I think that our thinking was still like somewhere in the 1940s or 1950s. And so my background in TV, I thought, well, you know, if you show blind people doing everyday things and just being people and not doing anything from any different from anyone else, just in a different manner, you know, this will this will, like help people who are blind gain employment and people will get to know them. And they wouldn't feel awkward around a person who's blind. And so I did. I, I was I ended up developing cooking without looking one piece at a time. I, I met a chef who was blind, and he was a professor of blind professor over at Florida International University, which is a school of hospitality. And so then I I talked to some of my friends. I was on the board of National Academy of Arts and Sciences, and, and one of them was a program director at one of the local TV stations, a PBS station. Renee Rentmeester: And so I I talked to him and he thought it was a great idea, but I had to get some money to, like, raise money to do the pilot. So then I did the pilot and we ended up it was it was a funny story because he he loved loved the show or the idea of the show so much, but he was afraid of what his general manager would say because he said, well, I think he would be worried that people would feel sad seeing blind people. I go, you know me, I go, I don't do anything for sadness. I it's all about having fun, you know you know, we have a funny we have a funny thought, I guess, about people who are blind or anyone with any sort of a disability, even I it hit me, like I said. Well, cooking without looking, I go, does that offend you? Like is that too silly or something. And he said, no I like it. Okay. So he he snuck the show on the air. The general manager of course caught it and he loved it. And he became like our biggest cheerleader. He would help walk people into the studio over the cords and such. So then after a while, after several years there was a recession and we had a hard time getting sponsors and we had to pay for our production. Renee Rentmeester: So what we did was we went to we went to many food festivals in South Florida, and we showed and people were just like, freak out. They get so excited to watch. Like, there were groups and groups of people. You would have thought that this was some kind of a circus or something. And they loved it and they were mesmerized. They were just mesmerized and you know, it was it was just really nice to see. And then we did a lot of those. And I still have one of the hosts, one of the hosts that we've had for like 25 years is still with us. And then we had one for 24 and she just left for personal reasons. But so we have a new person. But she had been with us for a while. Kind of like on the sidelines. And when the pandemic came, she said to me, well, why don't you use zoom? And I go, okay, well, let's do that. So her name is Sylvia Stinson Perez. And the other host is Alan Preston. And so I started using zoom, and, you know, it opened up the whole world literally and figuratively, because we were reaching people from around the world. I could have never done that because it's like, that's not in our budget at all. So that's pretty much how we came this far. And in 2018, I started the podcast as well. Wow. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't know what to say. You you're very open about the fact that you are not blind yourself. No I'm not. Yeah. So what first drew you to blindness advocacy. And what convinced you that this was the cause that you wanted to dedicate your platform to? Renee Rentmeester: Well, you know it's just basic humanity for me. You know, I'm a person who believes that I, you know, we talk about inclusion and everything, and sometimes people, you know, that just flies over people's heads. So, yeah, I said that life is a party, and I'm inviting everyone to the party. You know, no one's going to be left out. I, I started off by doing the research for blind children, but then I figured after the research, most, most people are not born blind in the United States or most of the world. So then I thought, well, you know, macular degeneration with the baby boomers and everything, but so that's that's how we did that. That's how I started to focus on just anyone. And, you know, the stereotype is normally that blindness is usually older people. But as I look at all of our shows and podcasts, most of them are very young people. Yes, we've even had children on. And so it's just for me, it's just basic humanity. I can't stand to see a whole group of people being left out. I can't stand one person being left out. I'm like, when I was a little girl on the playground, I if I saw someone just sitting by themselves, I'd always go get them and see if we could play together or sit and talk or something because I just, I don't like. It's so sad to me to see someone just be left out. So that's how I chose it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, when you were researching online communities in the early days, okay, you noticed how often blind people were talking about cooking. What? What did you see in those conversations that told you, quote. This never needs to become a show. Renee Rentmeester: Well you know, everyone was just talking about cooking and their tips and how they would do things, and then they'd ask questions of another blind person. And I thought it was perfect because it's sort of a fun way to tackle a difficult subject. You know, if I were to sit down and just do a community affairs show, like from my old station, you know, that's a little that's a little bit of a snore, you know? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Renee Rentmeester: But, you know, this is sort of like when you come to my kitchen and we can sit and talk and we cook and we talk about all sorts of things, and, you know, about life and about the blindness and, and we make it very free for people to talk about their blindness. And so that, you know, we can all understand it. So that's that's how I did that. It was very engaging. And it's also you know, afterwards, you know, sometimes you think of something and then afterwards you keep adding on to it the reason you did it. Well, also, cooking is something we all need to do. I mean, like we need to eat. So definitely if you want to eat, you know, you need to cook. And my father always used to say, well, you know what? If you can read a cookbook or, you know, you can find a recipe, you can cook, you know, it's, you know, we don't have to be like, any competition here. We're not any, any sort of chef on TV. I like the term home chef. I saw that somewhere. I thought, yeah, I like this, but but most of the people and many of the people actually, that we have are actually professional blind chefs or actually professional chefs who happen to be blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, okay. Renee Rentmeester: Yeah, yeah. So that's we just like to, to take out these stereotypes, you know, one at a time and, and just keep them out of there because no one learns and no one learns. If you just keep those stereotypes in it, it blocks the humanity of each of us. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm not a professional chef, but I love to cook, I love to eat. And I just think that what you're doing is awesome. Absolutely awesome. Renee Rentmeester: Thank you. Donna. Thank you. And you can you can be on our show. We'd love to have you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'd love to be there. So take me back to the first major step finding a blind chef in Miami and filming a pilot for P persons with gist who are blind. What were the first biggest challenges and the biggest surprises when you tried to bring this concept to life on camera? Renee Rentmeester: Okay, well, starting with I was I was going to talk to my friends and colleagues on the National Academy of the blind, and I knew one of the gentlemen had glaucoma. Right. So when I told him about it, he goes, oh, no, that'll never work. I'm like. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. Renee Rentmeester: You know what, Donna? If you tell me that something will never work, you better believe I'm going to make it work. So, yeah, I don't get I don't get turned away too often, you know? I just keep working. So then we To find that blind chef was actually sort of serendipitous because I I was living in a building in Miami on the Bay and the Bay in Miami, and one of the young men who also lived there happened to be going to the School of Hospitality. And so we were, you know, we were all getting together one night and I asked him and I said, do you know a blind chef? He goes, yeah. And he named the professor right away. And I said, oh, wow, I'd love to talk with him. So I just, you know, working in news, you get used to like just calling people out of the blue. I know you, you you do that too, I'm sure. And it's like he called out of the blue. You act like you know them forever. And and. Hey, I'd love to talk to you. I've got this idea. And it turned out that he had always liked to do something like that, too. So he he gave me the first donation for the production. Okay, but you know what? We had our first meeting on nine over 11 on 2001. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my God. Renee Rentmeester: Yeah. And and it was just a weird thing because we all, like, got up and we started watching, watching the planes hit the buildings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes. Renee Rentmeester: And to see everyone's reaction was just like, that was wild. I think one man thought he was watching a movie and he started laughing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And. Renee Rentmeester: And they were just like odd things going on. But after that. So I had the first bunch of money. Then he, he told me about another man who actually, to this day still owns a store with accessible equipment. And so he, he gave me another one and then an ophthalmologist who sort of thinks outside of the box, which is pretty much what I needed at that point. He he has some special he specializes in macular degeneration. And he's created this these glasses that help you look through your macula. You know, sometimes your macula is wrecked, so pieces of it are still good. So he teaches you how to look out of the good part of your macula. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Renee Rentmeester: So with those three, I found I found a someone to shoot the show, which wasn't extremely hard for me because since I was working in that business in Miami, you know who's good, who's not, you know, and and who would be who would be fair? So we shot it. And then that's when after we shot it. Okay. So it got to the end of the shooting, right? We had a live studio audience. We were in a fancy fancy appliance store, which the appliances were, like thousands of dollars, you know, the fanciest ones. You know, you could barbecue whatever you want, do whatever you want. And he. So what this chef did was he had macular degeneration. So what happened was he went to reach for a white cloth. A white cloth to wipe his hands. Yeah, he actually stuck his hand in a bowl of whipped cream. Right. Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Renee Rentmeester: So then. So then you know, everyone laughs and I keep things in. And sometimes there were shows that I, I actually just had one little section like the bloopers because people love that, you know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Renee Rentmeester: And and so then as I was walking out of the room, this little old lady, she was like in her 70s and she said, well, actually, I'm not that far away from that. But at the time, she seemed older to me. And she she said, she goes, you know, I started going blind about six months ago. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Renee Rentmeester: Yeah, and I haven't been in the kitchen since. Because she was afraid. Yeah. And then she said. But, you know, seeing that professional chef make a mistake, she goes, that gave me all the courage to get back in the kitchen again. That's good. And that's when I knew that. Yeah, this this really did have some sort of a purpose, because, you know, it takes the fear away. I think that's the biggest thing people need to get over is the fear of doing it all over again. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is. It is now. Your mission is often described as changing the way we see blindness. Okay. What does that mean to you today? And how do you keep that mission front and center in every episode? Tell me. Renee Rentmeester: Oh, that's a good question. Well, it's always a constant thought. Like I mentioned before, it's a constant thought that I, I'm always shying away from the stereotypes. Yes. And and people always when I say what we do, they'll always say, oh, so you teach blind people? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no. Renee Rentmeester: People teach us. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Renee Rentmeester: And and I guess changing the way we see blindness is sort of my clever, semi clever little way of showing the world what real blind people's lives are like without all the stereotypes and and all the old thoughts stuck in there. And so people have these thoughts like, oh, you know, blind people are this or blind people are that, or blind people can do this and blind people can't do that. And so I just want to change the way that we, we can say, perceive blindness. But then that wasn't as cute as the other way, so I left it. But that's that's basically it just, you know, let people understand what a real blind person is like, which isn't really a whole lot different from what any of us are like. It's just that our challenges are different. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just think the world of this, I just think, I don't know what to say. I'm just blown apart here. Oh. Renee Rentmeester: Oh thank you Donna, thanks a lot. You know, sometimes you get you get like a little wrapped in your head and you think, oh, no one's going to care. You know, why do I keep doing this? But then something good happens. Like, you ask to talk to me, and they're like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, as a blind host myself, I'm always thinking about what makes cooking instruction truly accessible. What were your earliest decisions about format so that the, you know, the show wouldn't just be about blind cooks, but would also be usable and empowering for blind viewers. Renee Rentmeester: Right. So what? I always make it a point to say is that people always want to say that we're a show for blind people, but no, we're a show featuring people who are blind. Wow. Yeah, I twist that up a little, and I just I think that I always always make sure that people describe exactly what they're doing because it's like. It's like a audio description, but it's sort of like a an easy version of it. Like you tell us what you're doing and so it widens the audience. I always make it so that it's not for blind people, it's for everyone. I use some of our own tips all the time. I've. I've been amazed at some of the great tips I found out I love. I love the thought that like, you know, your stuff is done when you can smell it. Like that was like, wow, that was a mind blower to me. I used it all the time. Or how to cut an onion or an apple, you know, you cut it in half and most of it seems like really common sense. But if you get used to doing something an old fashioned way, sometimes the common sense just goes out the window, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Renee Rentmeester: So basically I just make sure that people describe exactly what they're doing. We usually start off by talking about your journey with blindness and, you know, it opens it up to, you know, so they feel comfortable talking about their blindness. Somebody described us as a safe place to be that they, you know, they always like to be with us because it's a safe place. You know, they don't feel like any that they have to do something special or be something special. They can just be themselves. And so that's, that's what I'm proud of. When someone told me that who's been on the show a couple of times, I go, oh that's, that's really nice. We've also been described as friendly and fun. And that's what I do when we start off, we get on, we get online a little early, like, well, a lot early 30 minutes. And just so that we can kind of talk to each other and laugh and, you know, all these things just to relax a little because sometimes these things can just get so stiff. And I understand that most people have never been on TV or doing these presentations in their life. And and so, you know, I like to make them relax. And I tell them, you know, it's only TV and no one's going to die here today. So I just I just like having people have fun and, and and feeling like they have a stage to stand on for themselves. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, that is absolutely true. Having fun is the important thing in life. You know, it's not all about the bad news that you hear every day. It's about, you know, we we are here on earth to do something special. And I think for you, it's something very special. It's it's great. You know I don't know what to say. I'm just blown out of my shoes here. Now, the show is known for describing steps in detail and reading recipes aloud. Right. How do you coach guests and hosts to communicate in a way that respects blind audiences and doesn't rely on? Watch this or you can see this. How do you do that? Renee Rentmeester: Well, you know, everybody on the show is blind or visually impaired. Even the two hosts, Alan Preston and still Sylvia Stinson Perez. They're both blind as well. Okay. And so. But I write a script, so I write a script in 36 point because they have a little bit of sight left. Sylvia's got retinitis pigmentosa and has had something from birth as well. And so they have he doesn't have color perception. But so they, they, they go off of a script, but it's a loosely written script so that they can put their own thoughts and words into. It's almost like a glorified outline and the I always tell the people who are presenting the recipe to remember to describe everything you're doing, you know, because even if you're excited, excited or blind, you know, like, oftentimes I don't just sit in front of the TV and look at it. Yes, I would drive myself up the wall if I did that, but I just think that it's a matter of just telling them I don't really have to coach a lot. Sometimes if I detect that someone's a little nervous, I'll joke around with them. I'll say something to tease them or something. But No, it's just a matter of remembering that we're all human, right? If we sit and we just stop on blindness or on sightedness, you know, you've lost us. You've lost everybody. But if you if you just work on the human side of it and and you come off fine, I don't really have to do a lot of coaching. I've never. I have a I have a rule that I don't edit the show because. Yeah, if I, if I edit the show, people will think, oh, she just took the mistakes out. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. Renee Rentmeester: And I don't ever show except because I make mistakes every once in a while. Right? And I edit my mistake. And it's usually like clicking the start off and I'll forget to hit the record. So I'll, I'll edit a mistake of mine out. But no, the everything else just goes on as it is. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ain't that amazing? And you admit it. Renee Rentmeester: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, we're all human, right? It's funny, because Sylvia will. The last couple of times. I don't know why, but I forgot to start the start it. I mean, start the record part of it, right? I think sometimes I get caught up in talking to people and whatever's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then. And she's like, Renee. I'm like, oh, I forgot. So then we just start over again. But it's not. It's usually like only like a sentence in and it's because now, see, this is a blind tip. She notices that she doesn't hear the little click for the record. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Right, right. Okay, now I love sensory cooking, listening, feeling, smelling and touching. Cuz. Right, right beyond sight. How does cooking without looking intentionally teach sensory techniques? And what are a few of these examples that really changed how people cook? Renee Rentmeester: Well, you know, we'll talk about whether something is thickening or, you know, like, like I mentioned before, how something smells that, you know, when it's done, you know, it smells, which is like that was that was cataclysmic for me. Also, let's see what else. Usually we'll talk about what it smells like and how something is and, and I know that one of the things off the top of my head was a couple of shows ago. We had a man who had gone totally blind about ten years ago, and he was making meatloaf, and he was showing us how the meatloaf should feel and and how it should you know. Yeah. How thick it should be if it just he picks up a glop and it just glops in a certain manner. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Renee Rentmeester: And and so he showed us that I know, and people just have their own way of of whatever they're showing us. There was a lady who made a pumpkin roll and a pumpkin roll. She was teaching us because, like, that one was frightening for me because I can't even imagine to do that. Because I could just see me breaking that cake all along the way. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Yeah. Renee Rentmeester: And and she was saying, well, you have to have it hot. You just take it right out of the oven and you start rolling and it's like, wow, that was another cataclysmic thought. And and so she said to keep it hot and you know, the stirring. You want to talk about the thickness of everything, how the thickness feels. Because, you know. Oh, in hamburger, you know, a lot of people wonder how to do the hamburger. And basically you take. I'm I'm always very simple. You can take, like a wooden spoon and you can feel the difference between the cooked and the uncooked hamburger. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Renee Rentmeester: And there was another one that they, they wanted to figure out if a roast was done or not. So he he took a oh, my God, a big butcher knife, sliced it. This was this was our that first chef, right. He took a big butcher knife, sliced a little bit out of it, and then touched the knife to his tongue, which I don't recommend. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. Renee Rentmeester: And just to see if it was cold or not. It's still cool, you know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, okay. Renee Rentmeester: But, you know, I'm not going to do that one. And and let's see what there have been a whole bunch of them, but it's just each show is different depending on on, you know, what they're making. We had a chef Rick on last month, and he was making like, sort of like a Puerto Rican pinchos the shish kebabs. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Renee Rentmeester: He's from the Bronx. So he he called it the Bronx. Shish kebab, something like that. And he was going along telling us how it was smelling in the house and everything. Yeah, that that just sounded so good. You know, certain spices. You don't even have to. If someone tells you that it smells like that, you don't even have to be in that same kitchen. You can just understand it at any rate. So that's basically it. You know, it just depends on the recipe. And if you're you know, what you're doing with it stirring, cutting, smelling. You know we just talk about those. And I leave it up to the the person who's doing the presenting. I pretty much let them I don't tell them how to do things. You know, the only thing we do is in the very beginning, like where to stand and how to have the light and whatever, but it's it's all up to them and, and all of the presentations have been great. Like I say, I haven't edited any out at all. It's just it's just them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You might have to edit mine if I ever appeared on no. Renee Rentmeester: No, no. But like I always say, we like to keep it authentic, you know, because we all make mistakes. In fact, I teach a little class it's called Blind United Interest Group, and the organization is Blind United. I'm on the board of that in Los Angeles, and and I cook. In fact, I did this this week. Tuesday. And I always bring up the mistakes I make because sometimes people will think, well, you know, I make this mistake. It's because I'm blind. It's like, no, I make mistakes too. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, we all make mistakes. Renee Rentmeester: Yeah, sometimes. But the mistake sometimes for a person who's blind or with another disability, they think that that's the stone or the mountain that they can't climb. And it's like, no, you just got to get over it. And. And I'll tell people. Substitutes. I think substitutes are a great thing because, you know, if you're blind, you just can't dash out to your car and hit the store and go and buy something. So even for me, I love substitutes. Today I have made a recipe. I made crab cakes and yeah, I didn't have time. And so I went online to see what a substitute would be. And they had dill and they had Basil. I'm like, okay, well I've got both of those, so I'll use one of those. I ended up using dill. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I learned to cook like I was born with little or no vision. And I learned to cook with my granny and my mom. Then I got a whole whack of vision through a cornea transplant, and mom continued to coach me, but on the phone because I left home when I was pretty young. So we kept in touch all the time, and she coached me on the phone. And then I lost the vision about 15 years ago. So I've gone through different stages of learning to cook and adapt and things like that. But You have featured adaptive tools like talking thermometers, barcode readers, and Braille markings on stove dials. Okay. In your view, which tools have been the biggest game changers for independence in the kitchen and why? Renee Rentmeester: You know what? I think that the modern one is the air fryer. Renee Rentmeester: Yeah. Blind people who are blind and love to cook have been getting air fryers in all over the place. We've had like 2 or 3 shows with air fryers on because it goes real fast. You can't burn your. Well, I guess you could try to burn yourself. You don't really burn yourself. And you know, a lot of people who are blind have some health issues. So. Yeah, it's it's good for that way. You know, it's a little healthier. So I see it as that. Not even the the bump dots, little dots on there, the high marks. I think that's that air fryer is probably the most popular right now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Really? Renee Rentmeester: Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. Yes. And we've had talking microwaves. We've got a whole show with a talking microwave and a where also where you use the, the bar code and it sets the time. And so that was pretty cool because he would just tell Alexa and Alexa would set the time on it from the bar code. And that's probably one of our most popular shows. There are so many things. And, you know, I like to also focus on the simple because sometimes we don't all have the funds to go run out and get some special things, you know? So I like to keep things simple and sometimes even just a fork to mix things up works really, really well. And and it doesn't take a lot of cleanup after that. Let's see, we, we when I'm online, a lot of times I'll see people that have an issue. And one of our biggest issues the last week was how to separate an egg. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes. Tell me. Renee Rentmeester: Well, there are there are little things that you can get on Amazon and the blind kitchen, that's a that's another group that. Oh, yeah. She was actually on our show. We did a, we did a competition blind versus sighted, and we, we the her, her actually, her cooking professor actually blindfolded himself, and he did it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Okay. Renee Rentmeester: So anyway, she she has a lot of equipment like that, and she had a pie cutter, which was amazing. Which is another one of those, like, you know what? I don't care if I'm blind or sighted. I would love that, too, because I'm not necessarily the best pie cutter. I don't know if anyone is, but it's actually like a circle and put the circle and then each the little triangles are already built in there, and it's made out of like, I think it's stainless steel. I'm not certain, but it looks like that. And you can just put that down on your pie and it cuts it automatically because of the stainless steel. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Renee Rentmeester: Okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What about the the the talking toaster oven? Have you featured that at all? Renee Rentmeester: I don't I don't remember specifically the talking toaster oven, but I do love these appliances that talk. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Renee Rentmeester: I think that's so cool. And the price has come down on a lot of them. You know, in the first, when we first got started, like 25 years ago, they were like over $300. And now I think you can go to Best Buy for not a lot of money. Probably like I haven't looked recently, but the last time I looked it was like around $80, which is like a huge jump. It's probably even less now, so. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess there are a lot of talking appliances out there that you could probably lose yourself with. I mean, I would. I love gadgets, so I often get into trouble by buying something I really shouldn't be buying. But you know, they're fun. They're fun. You know? And I think like when my nephews and nieces see these things, they say, but Auntie Donna, you know, why do these things talk? I want to borrow this. Oh, God. Please, no. Put it down. You know. No. Renee Rentmeester: Well, it is sort of fun. And, you know, excited people can use them to, you know, just it just depends on what you need them for. And a lot of times you get you're doing 2 or 3 different things at once and you realize, wow, I forgot to do this. And and your little talking machine will tell you. Hello. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Come on You got Alexa? Renee Rentmeester: Yeah, yeah. So those are. Those are great. Let's see what else I don't I don't really can't really think of other things off the top of my head. I like the little tricks that we do sometimes with things. Oh, you know, what's good is slow cookers, crockpot slash slow. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Cookers. Yes. Yeah. The instapot. Renee Rentmeester: Yeah. And instapot too. They, they have a instapot are amazing. And they're huge with people who are blind. I think they had business wise. They had a problem there for a while. I had someone call me out of the blue about the instapot, like years ago. And then I think they they reworked their business. So now I think they're still around. They are still around. But those are amazing. You do so many things with that. Renee Rentmeester: You can even make yogurt or bagels. Anything you want. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I got one, but I have to confess, I've never used it. It was given to me as a gift, but I've never used it. Renee Rentmeester: Oh, well, you know, to be honest with you. Once that person called me about the instapot, I. It started off in Canada. The instapot. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Renee Rentmeester: And And when she called me, I'm like, well, I gotta find out about this. So I went online and I started looking through the directions, and the directions just seemed like there's, like, everything all over the place. Like it just lost my my train of thought. I couldn't keep my train of thought over because, like, oh my God, look at this, look at this, look at this, you know, and it just too many directions, I guess, is what I'm saying. In college I took a course in technical writing and. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes, I just. Renee Rentmeester: I just noticed that this was like, this needed someone who needed technical writing experience because it was just too many words. You know, if you get too many words, you don't want to follow instructions at all. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no you don't. Renee Rentmeester: So I don't blame you for not using it because I probably wouldn't have used it either. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well my clock is winding down but I have a final question for you. And it's this where do you see yourself going from here on in. You've done so many things, so many unique things, so many exciting and brilliant things. What's next for Renee? Renee Rentmeester: Well, I've been trying to get on a streaming service like one of the big streaming services. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Renee Rentmeester: We're on we're on YouTube, which it has been taking over. Even just the regular broadcast stations. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Renee Rentmeester: But just to get on a regular streaming service that's out there. You know, I'd like to do that. I'd like to do that and really widen the audience and increase the audience more. And which is really just spreading the word even more. More than just numbers in an audience. Just to spread the word, spread the understanding. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When it has been a pleasure, pure pleasure having you on my podcast. And I'd like to invite you back at any time you want to come on again, talk to me, talk to our viewers, not viewers or listeners about anything. Please do not hesitate. Renee Rentmeester: Oh thank you, Donna, I've had a good time, too. We've got to get you on the show and on our podcast as well. That would be fun. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Anytime you just let me know. And you know, I'd love to work with you to in any way, shape or form. You think I can help? Renee Rentmeester: Oh, thank you so much. Would you like our website? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Go ahead, give it to us. Renee Rentmeester: Okay. It's w w w dot cooking without looking tv.wordpress.com, and it's a long one. So if you want to just Google the cooking without looking TV show, it'll it'll bring it up. We have a free recipes and free kitchen hacks Monday through Friday. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Terrific. So I look forward to working with you in some way, shape or form in the future. I, I want to thank you for having brought all this fun to blind and vision where people around the world keep it up. Renee Rentmeester: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're very welcome. And you take care. Renee Rentmeester: You too. Donna. Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now. Bye. Podcast Commentator: Thank you so much for listening. That's a wrap for this episode of dining with Donna. Donna wants to hear from you. What did you cook? What worked and what would you like to learn next? Share your favorite accessible kitchen tips. Send in a recipe request or tell us the kitchen challenge you like Donna to tackle on an upcoming episode. And if today's show helped you feel more confident cooking without relying on sight, please share it with a friend and leave a review. Your support helps more listeners find their way into the kitchen. Until next time, keep it simple, keep it safe, and keep it delicious.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #71: Ask Advocate Donna | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-01-02-2026/ In this empowering episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan introduces a new monthly "Ask Advocate Donna" segment, folding in the spirit of her earlier Ask Donna Advocacy in Action podcast, designed to help listeners become stronger, more confident, and more independent advocates. She opens with a quote about speaking so others love to listen, and listening so others love to speak, then kicks off a quick "word game" that challenges listeners to reflect on an advocate's mindset: "act now" vs. "put off," and "accessibility" vs. "expediency." Donna then brings advocacy to life through three real-world scenarios: bullying driven by jealousy, a teen boy bullied because his voice hasn't deepened, and a blind student, Sheena, initially barred from trying out for a music festival solely due to her vision impairment, until determined advocacy by Sheena, her parents, peers, and supportive staff leads to the decision being reversed. She closes by encouraging listeners to share feedback and stay engaged as she continues offering practical advocacy prompts and examples each month. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hey, I'm Donna Jodhan, and welcome to the second Remarkable World commentary by me for January 2026. I'm starting something new for the new year, and previously I used to host a podcast called Ask Donna Advocacy in Action. Well, I've decided to roll this in to this podcast on a monthly basis. Much shorter, much more succinct. And I'm hoping that based on feedback that I have received over the months, that this commentary will help people to become stronger advocates, more confident advocates, more independent advocates. So let's start with my January podcast, Ask Donna. Okay. See how we do here. I want to start with this quotation. Speak in such a way that others love to listen to you. And listen in such a way that others love to speak to you. Very true. Listen in such a way that others love to speak to you. You know, I like this quotation, and it's a quotation that I chose for this particular commentary that I will be doing once a month. It's ask advocate Donna. So let's get down to some business here, And I want to start with my word game for you. Okay, here is the word game. I'm going to give you two sets of words and let's see how you do as opposed to what I think. The first set of terms is act now or put off for a good advocate, an advocate who is confident and independent. Act now is what they often go by. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Act now. Okay. So if they put it off, it means that they're not confident enough or they don't feel comfortable enough going forth with their advocacy efforts. So act now means that they're confident, independent and committed. Put off means that they want to make sure that they have everything or their ducks in a row before moving forward. Act now or put off. Okay. The next set of terms is accessibility or expediency. You have a lot of companies or entities telling you that they are committed to accessibility. But what does that really, really mean? Is it accessibility because they're being forced to do it, or accessibility as a goodwill gesture, or accessibility because they see the benefits and the advantages to it? Or is it expediency whereby they say, you know what we need accessibility. We need to be expedient in what we do, not just to increase our bottom lines or not just to increase our customer base, but we need to do something. Accessibility versus expediency. Which of these two words would you promote to any so-called client or customer seeking your advice? Okay, that is my little word game for this episode and I want to share some stories with you. How advocacy comes out here when you have jealousy is the cause of bullying. What does one really do if one can identify that jealousy is the cause of bullying? Are they just going to say, oh gosh, jealousy is the cause of bullying? Let's let's just see what happens here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What should we do? Jealousy is the cause of bullying. I think for me, if I were to find out that jealousy is the cause of bullying, I would try to step in and start deciphering what is the next thing to do. At least I've identified that jealousy is the cause of bullying. All right, so this is what has happened. Jealousy is the cause of bullying. Okay. The second story I have is the young boy's voice. High voice is a problem. Okay, but is it really a problem? We had little Ty whose voice did not crack or did not deepen at the so-called appointed time, and because his voice was high. At age 14 and 15, it became a problem for him because he was being bullied. He was being laughed at. How can advocacy help young Thai to get over this? What advocacy can get be involved here? When you have child and his parents and the teachers working to build awareness of what is going on? This is advocacy in its pure sense. Okay, just like jealousy, the cause of bullying, when you have a youngster being bullied because of, you know, the resources he has or coming from a good home, these being bullied by others who are less fortunate. Advocacy is what is needed here again. Jealousy. The cause of bullying. Advocacy. All right. The young boy's voice not deepening at an appropriate time, and his peers making fun of him is also cause for advocacy. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's go to the third story. Here we have a blind student who was denied an opportunity to try out for a music festival. And the only reason why this blind student, whose name was Sheena, denied the opportunity to try out for a music festival. The only reason she was denied was that she was vision impaired. This happened at a very good high profile girls school, and the nuns in charge decided that Sheena would not have that opportunity because she was blind. What do you think Sheena should have done? I think Sheena should have gone to her parents, which she did. Parents went to the teachers with which they did. The teachers at first hesitated, but after much advocating on the part of Sheena and her parents and advocating from peers and even some teachers, it happened that this decision was reversed and Sheena was given the opportunity to try out for a music festival. She did fairly well. She did not win anything, but she went pretty far in the competition. So those are three stories of examples of advocacy. Okay. I'd like to leave you with these thoughts for this month. Ask Donna or ask Advocate Donna. Every month I will bring you word games and I will bring you examples of advocacy. Hope you enjoyed it. Write to me at Donna Jordan at gmail.com. Tell me what you think and we'll go from there. Thank you very much. Bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna Jordan at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #70: Who Needs To Take Responsibility | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-01-01-2026/ In this sobering episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan kicks off 2026 with a hard question, who needs to take responsibility when an exam is promised to be accessible, but turns out not to be. She recounts her experience after months of intense preparation for a CompTIA Network+ / cybersecurity exam, funded through a scholarship, only to arrive on exam day and face a system that was poorly structured for accessibility, paired with a proctor/reader who couldn't properly interpret key parts of the test, leaving her no real choice but to forfeit the exam. Donna also challenges the broader pipeline that led to this failure, raising concerns about inaccessible study materials, an inaccessible learning platform, and practice questions that were unreliable, then asks listeners to weigh in: Should she walk away, or should she hold the key parties accountable (the scholarship organization, Pearson VUE, and CompTIA) so others won't face the same barrier? She invites listeners to share their thoughts by emailing her directly. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm Donna J. Jodhan, and welcome to my remarkable World commentary. Happy 2026 to everybody. I hope that everyone had a great holiday time. And now, unfortunately, for better or for worse, we're back to work. So I'd like to begin this year's commentary remarkable world commentary with a very sobering commentary or some sobering thoughts from me. And the topic of my podcast for today is who needs to take responsibility? Okay, so. Exams are often laid out either in an accessible format or in an unaccessible format. Okay. So what we have is this. And this is based on my experience of a few months ago, after I had spent months and months studying for a cybersecurity course, a Network Plus ten course that was issued by the comp Tia organization and administered by the Pearson organization. I got a scholarship to do the cybersecurity course that was given to me by the Apex organization. I was extremely humbled, and I worked my butt off for the last nine months, or the first nine months of 2025. During that time, I had a heck of a time trying to set up an exam through Pearson and Comp Tea on the day of the exam. Everything that could have gone wrong went very wrong. The exam was not accessible. I had to work with a proctor slash reader who did not know how to interpret the exam, so I had to forfeit the exam or forgo the exam. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The security procedures were extremely tight and I understand that. But when you go into an exam room expecting that this exam is accessible and it is not, it is heartbreaking. It is horrifying. And somebody needs to take responsibility for. What has happened? Okay. So here we have an exam that has been laid out in a very inaccessible way. You go into the exam room, the reader slash proctor is unable to interpret properly. Okay. And you are not allowed to have a human reader or sorry, you're not allowed to have a computer set up with screen reading software for a blind slash vision impaired person. This, after I had had my technician sign umpteen forms saying that he would be my proctor slash reader. He was highly qualified, but then I was refused permission to bring him in. Everything else they adhered to like extra hours and visits to the bathroom and things like that. But the exam was terribly, terribly laid out. Okay. And then you have an organization who issued this His scholarship, but somehow forgot to check as to whether this exam was going to be accessible. An organization that in itself offered study materials were not accessible. There were lots of typos. The LMS system was inaccessible. The practice exams were ones where many times when I checked with ChatGPT, the answers to the questions that were given in the practice exams were incorrect. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And on and on and on. I can go, but I won't. Okay. So the thing is, when the apex organization offers such a wonderful opportunity, students like me study robustly and vociferously, and then the exam centers get involved and and schedule the exams. The student goes to the center on the appointed day and then the exam is not accessible. But nobody, no one, no organization wants to take responsibility for this amazing faux pas that has taken place. What can I do? What should I do? Should I stand up and fight in the name of other students who are having this difficulty, but are afraid to say anything? Should I walk away? What do you think I should do? Why don't you send me your thoughts to me at Donna Jordan at gmail.com? That's d o d a n at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear you. Tell me what you think I should do. Should I walk away? Or should I hold these three parties responsible? The apex organization, Pearson Vue, who is an internationally based organization with a reputation that I hope will take a look at what has happened here or the comp Tia folks, another internationally based organization. I'm Donna, wishing you a great day. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #67: Interview with John Melville, VP Content Development and Operations, Accessible Media Inc. | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-12-11-2025/ In this insightful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes longtime colleague and mentor John Melville for a candid conversation about how a career in radio, television, and sports broadcasting unexpectedly led him into accessibility leadership. John reflects on his early path, from studies at Carleton and Humber to behind-the-scenes roles in major Canadian media, and explains how "theater of the mind" in radio helped shape his understanding of what inclusive broadcasting really requires. Together, they revisit AMI's evolution from a niche service into a network striving to be "television that includes everyone," and how Donna's own advocacy and on-air work intersected with that mission. The discussion then digs into the practical "how": why AMI made open described video the default, the policy and funding context behind it, and how the team later experimented with integrated described video to improve flow and reduce conflicts with dialogue. John also highlights AMI's efforts to push accessibility into fast-moving formats (including described Blue Jays broadcasts), the impact of shows like You Can't Ask That in breaking down stigma, and the growth of tech programming (like Access Tech Live) that spotlights tools, sometimes created "by accident", that become life-changing for blind and low-vision users. Looking ahead, he outlines AMI's focus on higher-impact productions, wider distribution beyond traditional cable (including YouTube), and building a pipeline where creators with disabilities are increasingly in front of and behind the camera, a future he frames as both necessary and exciting, closing with warm mutual respect between him and Donna. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just a sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act, with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law, and most recently, in June of 2022. I was greatly humbled. Humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench Where policy meets, live experience and live experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's Guest changemaker, whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to change and build. John Melville. I am pleased and delighted to welcome you to my Remarkable World Commentary podcast. John Melville: Thank you Donna, it's an honor to be with you today. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We have known each other for a very long time and you have been my mentor, my friend, my advisor, and you have helped me to engage in many different aspects of accessibility and advocacy on the Accessible Media Inc program. So welcome again to you. John Melville: It's good to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So, John, I'd love to start at the beginning. And looking back on your studies in communications at Carleton and radio broadcasting at Humber, what first drew you into broadcasting? Broadcasting. And did you ever imagine that that path would one day intersect so deeply with accessibility? John Melville: Well, I'll answer the last part first, and then I'll explain how. And I know I did not expect it would intersect with accessibility and disability. I had a bit of a meandering start to my career as as when we're young, you know, we we're not really sure. So I went to Carleton and I started in the journalism program there, and I realized that I didn't. I wasn't really the type of person that wanted to follow politicians around with a notepad, which is kind of back then the way it was done. Right? Although it was very exciting to be in Ottawa because I am a bit of a political animal myself, so I was always really interested in politics. But I moved into Carlton's film program because I've always had a really great admiration for movies and movie directors. And, you know, I thought my career was going to be something related to film. And, you know, I was 19, 20 years old at the time. I graduated from Carlton with a BA. And then I proceeded to sort of take my gap year, which turned into about seven years. In that time, though I was you know, working on my own video production business. This is back in the 80s producing corporate videos. John Melville: We did weddings, we had a disc jockey service. It was quite a quite a entrepreneurial phase for me. But I realised that, you know, having to buy all this equipment and refresh it and everything else was probably not sustainable. And I wasn't that kind of business guy. So I went back to Humber College in Toronto because I had always had a love of radio, particularly music radio. And I spent a year in their certificate program doing radio broadcasting. And this would be 1989, 1990 had some great teachers there. Learned all about the inner workings of radio and formats and production, writing, sales and got myself as an intern at Tele-media broadcasting, which was actually the rights holder for the Toronto Blue Jays radio. But at the time I got in there, I didn't realize that that was going to be anything to do with me because I was interested in music and music radio. I wanted to be a disc jockey, but I learned fairly quickly that the real job security in media is not necessarily in front of the microphone, but behind it. And I set my path into operations, which I really enjoyed all the sort of technical aspects and scheduling and all that kind of stuff. John Melville: And where I was working was actually very sports intensive, so I was able to be around for the launch of the sports radio format in Toronto in, I think, 1991, which was the fan sports radio at the time. Met a lot of the people that are involved with sports broadcasting today that are very familiar household names. They were we were all kind of just young people at that time kind of trying something new And then after about five years of that, I joined the Score television network when they were launching in 1996. Spent four years there, and that's where I got my exposure to television production. And I spent. So I now have a hybrid kind of TV guy, radio guy which is a little bit unique. But I found the application of both to be very very good for me in terms of career fulfillment and also types of jobs that I was able to get. One of the highlights that I had in my career was in 2005, I was became part of the satellite radio launch in Canada with XM radio, which is now Sirius XM radio. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. John Melville: And we were the Canadian version of what is mainly a US broadcaster. And they have, you know, 150 channels of music and talk. We were producing 20 channels in Canada and we had to build studios and I was involved in that. I loved it. It was like old days of radio again that I'd learned about when I was at Humber, and I was there till 2011, and when I was actually, it was just before their merger. And my old boss from. Well, he's not an old guy, but he was my previous boss, I should say, who had worked with me at XM radio. Ross Davies former program director of Chum-fm. He had suggested that I might want to reach out because Army was actually looking for a director of production production, and he thought my skills might be worthwhile to them. So I reached out to the recruiter, and one thing led to another, as they say, and I ended up starting my career with Army. And that's what I'm saying. At the beginning, I had no idea at the time that my career would converge around accessibility and disability. But when I joined Army in 2011, everything made sense. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's when we met shortly. John Melville: Actually, it was right at the very beginning because I was moving fairly quickly when I walked in the doors of Army they were looking actually, they had hired David Harrington a couple of years before me as their CEO. They had previously been known as tech TV, the Accessible Channel. Right. And David was brought in in 2009 when the Army TV channel was launched to basically, you know, modernize and reinvent this, this network, which was providing great service to people from the blind and partially sighted community through the audio channel Voiceprint. And now they had this new TV channel which was adding audio description to TV shows that they were buying. And essentially putting audio description on them. And the problem was that there weren't a lot of people that were in the organization at that time that knew a lot about how the broadcasting industry works. So David was brought in, and he and I had actually worked together at the school. It was coincidental that we ended up back in the same place. But David was my boss when I joined. He still is today. And it was really an opportunity for us to apply all the learning that we had had in our careers to that point in time to this new, emerging accessible channel and to reinvent Voiceprint, which at the time which became Ami audio into something that would become more relevant to the community that we're destined to serve. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You were part of the team that launched Canada's first all sports talk station at the fan 500, and later helped build the Score television network from the ground up. So from my perspective as a blind sportsman, live coverage is all about sound and description. How did those early sports projects shape the way you think about making fast moving content understandable and and engaging for everyone? John Melville: Well, it's an interesting question. And when I was at Telemedia, they had the radio rights for the Toronto Maple Leafs and for the Toronto Blue Jays. So it was basically Leafs in winter, Blue Jays in summer, and there was a bit of overlap, but we figured that out. And essentially, as you know, baseball goes like every night during the season. And we had games running from beginning of March for spring training right through until. And at that time, the Jays were in the World Series in 91, 90 or 92, 93. So we were we were doing this right up until the end of October. What I had found you know, there and became kind of ingrained into me as a lover of radio was the, the picture that was drawn. And I will say, and it will probably talk a little bit more about him in a, you know, as we go through this, that the Blue Jays radio at that time was it was Tom cheek and Jerry Howarth were the play by play guys. And they also did the color commentary. Right. So so if Tom is calling the ball game or the inning, you know, strikes and balls and, you know, line drives and the whole bit, Jerry is providing all the other description around that. So he is a wonderful day at the ballpark. You know, we've got the flags blowing off in right field and that ball that just flied out guy with a red hat in the seats over there is with his daughter. John Melville: Caught the ball. It was kind of like that. And I know that a lot of people still listen to the baseball broadcast, but I do. Yeah, it really is kind of theater of the mind, right? You don't need to have the TV up in front of it. And it's an interesting little tidbit here is when Joe Carter hit the home run the famous home run, you know, touch em all, Joe. You'll never hit another home run like that. That was actually Tom's call on radio. But he writes to the Jays at that time were when they were in the playoffs were held by the Americans. I think it was CBS at that time. And what they did was they took for Canada. They took the when they clipped the highlight, they took Tom's radio call and put it with the TV clip because it was so much better. Okay. And that to me was something that through both the score and through the Telemedia stage with the Jays and the Leafs, that I really kind of got a handle on where radio, sound meets pictures, television and how the two really need to work together so that everybody can be included in the broadcast. And it's really what we kind of go on to do at Ami is filling in the the visuals with either sound like natural sound, like the sound of the bat hitting the ball. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. John Melville: Or description. So sports is a very good playing field, if I can use that analogy for the big picture in broadcasting as to making it accessible for everyone. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. You've worked across so many corners of the industry. Telemedia CHUM Satellite Radio at X Canada and now at EMI. So when you look back over that journey, what were a couple of turning point moments that nudge you toward making accessibility a central part of your work, rather than just another box to tick? John Melville: Well, I sort of alluded to it a little bit already, and that is, you know, my unique experience being able to work in television and also in radio. And, you know, the, the, the, the visuals that we have on television. And I mentioned to you earlier that I originally got into film. You know, I was a big fan of, you know, great directors like Kubrick, Lumet, you know and the films from the 70s. I thought cinema was fantastic in that era when I was growing up. And for me, that a couple of turning points was definitely you know, being having the honor and privilege of being able to work as an engineer alongside Jerry Howarth. You know, when I realized that my music career as a disc jockey wasn't really going to happen because I'd landed in a sports network. Right. I would call that a turning point, you know? And had that not happened to me, I would never have got the exposure that I got that would set me up later life. To understand how audio and pictures need to work together to deliver the full package, and not just to people who are blind and partially sighted. The whole point is that it's something that everybody can benefit from. You know, even if you can see what's going on on the field, there's so much more information that you're going to get through the audio presentation as well. You know, it's almost like you have two tracks, you have visuals and you have audio. And what we do with audio, especially in things like baseball, is really make that, you know, something that connects people and gives the full picture. So the pictures become secondary. So that would be the one turning point. The other turning point was I was spent a bit of time at CHUM. John Melville: We tried to launch another sports network with CHUM back in 2001. Some people might remember the Team Sports Radio Network. It didn't last very long and we all got laid off. But that's another story. It happens. And I went to work with John Bitove company who at that time he was owner of Prism brands, which was KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut and my my former boss, who I tended to travel around with a bit from job to job. Paul Williams had brought me along with him to prison, and we were at that time, we were working on things like digital signage, and I was so far away from my first love of media that it was like, oh my goodness, will I ever get back. And fate took a turn there, and it just so happened that John Bitove was also one of the applicants for the XM radio license, which was granted in 2005. And so when he realized that Paul and I were radio guys working in his organization, he was like, okay, well, you need to go over here and work with the radio launch. So that was another turning point. And in spite of the fact that I love to work in visual and television and film I always seem to end up gravitating back to radio. So. And I would say that the years I spent with XM were some of the best career years I had so an unexpected turning point. You know, just sometimes you get into something, you wonder if is this the right thing for me? And it all changed. And through a piece of fate, I was back in radio and launching again something that was still around today and is very special. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, before you joined Army Accessible Media Inc Army was often treated as a niche service. But when you first walk through the doors at Army, what did you see that made you think we can build something truly different here. And how did you start turning that vision into a concrete strategy? John Melville: Well, I have to say that it was a shared vision through Army's board of directors at that time who realized that they had something special with the two licenses for television and for for my audio voiceprint. It was also when they brought my my current boss, David Errington, on board. And he was able to take that vision that the board had and essentially consolidate the brand. Right. Because they had TAC TV, they had voiceprint. John Melville: And there was a bit of a, yeah, a marketing push required to basically say, you know, we are the accessible channel and we are accessible in audio and in television and in description. So that was kind of what was put in front of me when I joined the organization, how that was the goal. You know, we we need to consolidate this brand and make it a player in Canadian media, meaning that it's not so niche that nobody's ever going to hear about it. You really have to make a conscious attempt to the old term in boxing. Punch above your weight. Because if we just sit back and continue doing. You know, reading newspapers and magazines or just putting description onto old content. That's a very limited trajectory in terms of, you know, growth and where the where the network is going to go. What I realized when I came into the organization was, you know, the opportunity and I, you know, there was a slogan that TAC TV used to use before it was MTV was television. That includes everyone. And I always liked that because for me, that was kind of. Well, there's the mission statement right there. You mentioned Niche channel, right? Yes. And what what niche kind of says to me is like, it's a specialty. It's like for people that only want this type of content. And you could say that about Army. You could say it's just about description or it's just about reading newspapers. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Right. John Melville: Right. But for us, it was like, what we want to do is make this something that is relevant to everyone, relevant to people from the disability community, relevant to their families, relevant to people who have an understanding or want to have an understanding of what goes on in the disability community, what it is like to have a disability and be working in a barrier, you know, not barrier free. I know that you're involved in that. But, you know, certainly at that time, new legislation coming out with respect to the Accessibility Act, with building codes, you know, the the awareness of all that was something that I think that am I tried to build into its DNA so that because we're distributed right across Canada into every home that has basic cable We wanted to make sure that we were reaching audiences that were listening or wanted to listen to what we had to say. And it wasn't that we were telling people what to do or what to say. We were looking for creators and people who are involved in advocacy. And I think that's how you and I met who have a platform to tell their story. Right. And but the Army entity is something I think it is. It's television that includes everyone. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, and I I'm listening to you here, boy. I really feel as if I've traveled a long road with you since 2011, and I'm very pleased and privileged to have been part of this journey, you know. John Melville: But it's been a thrill. Yeah. Remember when we had the the the governor general? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes. John Melville: In the debates? Yes, there were some high points there. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, we've been involved in so many different aspects, you know, like live in studio, how it works, all these different things. And I, I learned a lot. I learned a lot under your tutelage and with your team, you know. John Melville: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So MIT is now recognized as the first network, as the first network in the world to offer all of its programming with open described video as a blind viewer. This is huge. So can you walk us through the thinking and the risks behind that decision and what it took operationally to make open description the default instead of a special feature? John Melville: Sure. That's a big question. I'll try and and slice it down a bit because there's a lot in it. But just to give it some focus, I would start by saying that it the genesis of the the channel came from the Broadcasting Act. There's the clause in the Broadcasting Act nine, one clause. And I think it's 91HH now they've added another h. Yes. That said, you know, channels will be given or applicant channels will be given carriage across Canada through mandatory subscriber fees that will be collected by the cable companies. And those channels have to demonstrate they are of exceptional importance to the Canadian public. And there's a couple of obvious examples that are also 91H along with Ami. It was for example, APTN. Right. So we don't necessarily know where indigenous people in Canada live. We don't know where people who are blind and partially sighted live in Canada. In other words, you know, you could be anywhere. You could be in the Yukon, you could be in Quebec, you could be in Vancouver Island. So the only way to reach you, according to Parliament, is that the channel has to be available to everyone on the basic tier, right? So our board prior to Ami launching looked at this channel of exceptional importance. And one of our members, I believe, was Betty Noble was. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Part of the. John Melville: Original launch team. This would be probably around 2006. Said, well, we should apply for a license because what we want to be able to do, because regular television is not offering description. They're not offering DV. Yeah. Yes. As you pointed out what little DV there was, you know, that you could find had to be turned on using this complicated menu system on your. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yeah. John Melville: Yeah. Right. So their approach was if we put DV on everything that we have will, you know, and just say to say to the CRTC we're not we're going to put it right onto the programs. We're not going to make people have to turn it on or off. So I suppose if you don't like DV, the downside is if you're watching Ami content, you're always going to have description. Because it's available all the time. So it wasn't that difficult from a production point of view to put it on. Right. Because we were essentially bypassing the system that said, you know, it's got to go in this menu on this line and all this kind of stuff. So that was relatively straightforward. I mean, we did have to write and voice all the description for the shows because anything we were buying we had to describe for the first time, that was part of Crtc's condition of licence for us at the time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Right. John Melville: And the CRTC will, when they give you a license, will add conditions that say, you know, you have to spend X number of dollars on Canadian content production. You have to ensure that, you know, everything is openly described. And by meeting those conditions, you are now classified as A91 channel, which is going to get distribution throughout the basic tier. And thus your funding formula comes in in the form of I think it was $0.10 per subscriber which is part of the sub fee that they collect on the monthly cable bills. Right. So we would get that $0.10. And that gave us our production budget to buy the content, to produce the DV and run any of our administration side of things. Obviously, you know, we have master control, we have employees. You know, there's a there's a structure in there as well that makes all this stuff happen. So the technical aspect was actually quite straightforward. We've since evolved a bit. So we we looked at it and we started to say, you know, sometimes the DV isn't that great or it's a bit redundant on a show, meaning. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's. John Melville: Almost fighting with the dialogue. Right? There's not great places to put it in. So I think it was around 2013 that we started to experiment with integrated described video, which is essentially when we write the show, and this tends to be more for the original content that we now create, as opposed to the content we would buy. Because once you buy content, it's already made, so you can only put description on it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. John Melville: For stuff that you're actually making for the first time, you can actually write the program in a way that the person who's presenting is able to describe as they're presenting. So you don't need to have that second voice involved. So it wasn't that difficult to do it. And it's probably more difficult to turn it off now because all of our content has DV or DV in it. And, you know, I think that's a good thing. We've had a couple of shows that have aired on CBC with ITV. One of them being you can't ask that. That was all produced with ITV and the CRTC recognized when we developed ITV that this was a form of open description. So it's something that we've been working with and, you know, we will put description on when we feel it's necessary. And we're always evaluating the content that we produce to make sure that it's accessible to a blind or partially sighted person. And that is done in a way where our DV specialists will look at the content, meaning they'll listen to it twice without any pictures that they are understanding everything that's going on. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is so technical. I mean, it's so in-depth. You know. One of the projects many of us remember is Amis described broadcasts of the Toronto Blue Jays games as someone who grew up listening to sports on the radio. I'm fascinated by the blend of play by play and description. So how did that partnership come together, and what did you learn from trying to make live, professional sports fully accessible for fans with vision loss? John Melville: So we I mentioned that you know, both David and I had been working with the Blue Jays at. I was working with them at Telemedia, and then I worked with them with David at The Score, because the score also had rights to Blue Jays radio after Telemedia let, let them go. So we both had the opportunity to work with it, and we both worked with Tom cheek and Jerry Howarth in the radio divisions. When we both arrived at EMI we were talking about, you know the opportunity to take a weekend broadcast of the Blue Jays, say, a Saturday afternoon. And let's try adding description, live description to it. We'd done some live description already with the royal wedding. Prince William and Kate Middleton. Yeah, we were the first to do that, even ahead of BBC, who actually were the host broadcaster of that. But we thought, you know, live description. Well, what can we add to it? Essentially it was the missing piece that, you know, I mentioned earlier that we we had, you know, a radio clip running with the TV highlights when you hear the Joe Carter call. Yeah. But we looked at the Jays and said if we were to add a third voice, so we've got the play by play person, we've got the color person. What if we add a third voice in there who can, you know, fill in any blanks that are still taking place because people are there watching the TV. They're not listening to the radio in this case. So we approached Sportsnet and we made a deal with Sportsnet to acquire the games from them. John Melville: And we literally had a describer who would sit and watch the game as the play by play team for Sportsnet were calling it, and anything that was missed would be added in by the describer. And these describers were sports broadcasters too. We had Sam Cosentino was involved in it. People may know him from his junior hockey on Sportsnet Jim Van Horne. One of the TSN originals and Jim has since gone on to work with NBC on describing the Olympic Games when they had the rights. So that was kind of how it all came about. And we did that for a few years. It was actually it was it was an interesting sort of time for us where we were trying different things, and it was well received by the blind and partially sighted community who were watching those games. You know, but the problem that we it's not sustainable because unless Sportsnet makes a a product that's more descriptive, it's too expensive for us to be doing that, you know, for 162 games of the year. So we did it. And I think Sportsnet have, you know, picked up a few tips from the times when we did that to potentially make those games. I think Dan and Buck do a great job now of, you know, doing the play by play and full description probably better than it was back then when we started doing the DV for the Jays. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The series you can't ask that invites people with disabilities to answer the uncomfortable questions others often think but never say aloud. So from your seat, why was it important for Army to bring that format to Canadian audiences, and how do you see it helping to dismantle this terror, the stereotypes and artificial barriers that so many of us face all the time. John Melville: The So a lot of the shows that come to us come from producers who are working with creators and have developed an idea. Right. So this producer came from Edmonton. This idea actually came through CBC originally. And the producer had pitched CBC on the idea and CBC were were the original producer or broadcaster for that show, and they did two seasons of that, and they offered us to come in with them on that. So this happens sometimes where we get collaboration on it. And I think it was interesting because CBC, being a mainstream broadcaster for all Canadians as well recognized to the points you were making about the tone of the show that, you know, this maybe does make people feel uncomfortable, but the it's okay to ask these questions, right? It's okay to hear the answers to those questions. We we did three seasons all together on that show, and it was just a very popular format. I think it sort of broke the ice for people and let people know that it was okay to have, you know, a conversation with somebody with a disability like you. You know, if you're curious you can ask questions, right? And there's a lot of sort of predetermined sort of thought processes that people have, you know, where it leads. John Melville: We call it prejudice, right? Where it leads to. You know, I've already figured out the answer, even without asking the person. Right. And that's kind of what you can't ask that I think was able to sort of break down was, you know what? There's a different story from the perspective of the person with the disability, and maybe you need to hear it. And then when everybody hears it, they're kind of laughing and saying, oh, you know, it wasn't wasn't as bad as I thought, you know, and it's okay to to understand that because this is the way it is, right? So yeah, I think that was we do many different shows and, and they all have kind of a different angle, but that was one I think that a lot of people saw because it was also on CBC and it's still running today. It's going to be going up on our YouTube channel in the spring. So if you haven't seen it on my TV, we're going to be making all our content available on YouTube as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. So the clock is starting to wind down. But I got this question for you. Access to technology is such a big part of independence for blind and partially sighted people with access to tech live, you have created a weekly space dedicated to accessible and mainstream tech. What gap did you see in the media landscape that this show was designed to fill, and how have viewers responded? So far? John Melville: The gap okay, so I think it was I'm just going to tell a little story here because it goes back to a discussion. I was over in Scotland at Rnib radio, and I met a gentleman there who was working on the Rnib morning show, and it was a bit like Ami Audio's you know, he they were reading newspapers and things like that. Right. And I'm like, this is interesting. So we just wanted to see how they did things. The gentleman Stephen Scott, who is probably well known to Ami listeners now you know, was very interested in technology. He was he is blind. He was partially sighted. But you know, I believe he still is partially sighted, but he has degenerative eye disease, so his sight is not improving at all. And Steven was is a big proponent. He's always the guy out there with the first iPhone. He's, you know, he's checking all the accessibility features. And I hooked him up with another producer that I've been working with for years, Marc Aflalo. And said, Marc, you should talk to Steven because Marc had a tech show running here. It was just a standard technology show radio show. And, you know, you should talk to Steven because I think there might be a fit here for us being able to focus the technology, show more on the technology, the the the ability for technology to assist people with disabilities. And many times a lot of that technology exists by accident. John Melville: So something like Siri, for example, was not developed for people who are blind and partially sighted. It was developed for the general population, but it became much more valuable to people who are blind and partially sighted in its first iteration, because it was something that this is we've been waiting for something like this, right? But Apple didn't necessarily develop it for that reason. And what Steven was able to do was shine a light on technology that was really starting to break ground and with with the disability community. And I was over in Scotland at the Tech Share Europe, I believe it was in 2018, and we did a presentation on our live description, which I was talking about a little earlier. I was talking about the Blue Jays, and Stephen was there too. And what we noticed was all the big tech companies Google, Apple Panasonic. We're all there as well to learn about the needs of people who are blind and partially sighted. It was primarily around the people who need media assistance, and it generally is blind and partially sighted, and people who are deaf or hard of hearing that require most assistance with their media consumption. Right. Because you need to have captioning, you need to have ASL. You need to have description. You know, these are the tools that are required so that you can access that media. John Melville: And so Stephen and Mark came to us with a show idea that we're going to do this weekly show. It started actually on Ami audio with Double Tap Canada which a lot of people are familiar with. And Double Tap is still running. Yes. And it's been going now for seven, eight years. That's more of a weekly kind of long form drop in. Let's talk about tech kind of show, but it's always about accessible tech and access. Tech live was kind of the video version of that, and we streamed it on YouTube and it was made available on the audio platform like a radio show. So the importance of technology is always something that's in the sort of bull's eye for Ami TV and Ami audio, because it is one of the most important pieces of assistance that somebody who is trying to consume media or trying to make a phone call or trying to type a text, the easier that that can be made for them is, you know, where we're evolving to now. And when you hear about the next things like you know, artificial intelligence, AI, you know, and things like that, it's an ongoing discussion. It's an ongoing story. And what Ami wants to do is put people with disabilities right at the front end of that technology so that they're the first to hear about it and how it can help them in their lives. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is there any room for the good old. You know, when I first became involved with with ami and yourself, like, you know, I had the detective DJ series, is there any room for, you know, like good old storytelling shows on Army still, or are you going more toward technology and you know, the way you're going right now. John Melville: The way we're going right now is actually into larger productions on the TV side. What we're trying to do and the industry is, is is, you know, being incentivized to enable producers and broadcasters to kind of come together and produce really high impact shows. We want to expand audience. We want to expand our reach. We need to get outside our own ecosystem, unfortunately, because in spite of the fact that we're carried along, you know, all the cable channels in Canada, all the cable companies in Canada, there's only about 50% of Canadians, 60% of Canadians actually subscribe to cable now. And they generally are people who are of an older age, you know Gen Xers boomers, But millennials and Zoomers, you know, they're on, you know, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook streaming apps. The the whole industry has become much more diversified. So, as you know, you might not be able to watch a show. None of us can watch a show if you don't have a subscription to, you know, Paramount, right? And we just say, okay, well, I guess I'm not watching that show because I can't afford to pay $9 or $12 a month for that streaming app because I've already got Netflix. But Amazon, if I'm lucky and, you know, there's a dozen others out there. So what we're trying to do is create those high impact shows that are going to be able to be seen on, you know, apps or networks that are going to be easily accessible to people like CBC, you know like YouTube. The idea of our storytelling, though is, is not something that has gone away. In fact, we've been working a lot recently on the audio side, which has always been kind of the place where people who are blind and partially sighted can come to. John Melville: Although we still do some reading on the channel, we have, you know, The Walrus, The Guardian the Globe Mail is read just as it was. That's part of what we've always said we would do. They also have a new show called reflections. They have the Ami audio book review. What we're trying to do is, I guess what you're doing here with this podcast is, you know, have somebody come on, who is able to talk about an issue or talk about something, you know, their career or something that they're doing. And so what you're doing with your podcast, I think is, is a classic example of kind of where things are going. The because of the technology now with book reading you know, in the last few years, it's come a long way. And now we have again AI getting involved in it. It's a way of, you know, there's more and more access to being able to read a book online. So the old form of radio drama, things like that, it's still a very niche piece right now, and it's probably something that would have success on YouTube, you know, because you, you stand on your own two feet on YouTube. You know, if it's something people want, they will watch it. Right. And I mean, you can still produce it and have 400 views. And if you're reaching that audience, that's great. But for us, we are definitely looking at sort of, you know, we're trying to invest the little bit of money we have into leveraging high impact productions so that we can continue to open these doors for a wider audience of people with disabilities. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What are your final thoughts as we wind down this podcast. John, I know you've taken us through an immense journey, you know, from start to finish here. I mean, I've learned so much about, you know, who you are and what you've done in the past and you know, your your profile at the Army. What are your final thoughts as to what would the immediate future be for the next 3 to 5 years at Army? John Melville: Well, I'll tag it on to what I was just saying about the High Impact productions. And one thing we didn't talk about. So I'm going to talk about it now in this last question, is the importance of incorporating people with disabilities into the creation of the content that Army produces. So I sit here with you now as I'm, you know, I'm not partially sighted, but I'm certainly my eyesight is not getting any better, but I'm certainly not identifying with somebody as somebody with a disability. And I think that's important that, you know, that we don't muddy that water too much because, you know, I think that it it can hurt others if you know, somebody coming forward with a disability and they're kind of like, oh, you know, I've got a disability. I'm not to tell you what it is. Right. Which is fair enough. But the importance of understanding the connection that we have with people with disabilities and, you know, their perception of being included in content. So we've been doing a lot of work with mentoring. We have an apprentice program in place at Ami. We've had three apprentices go through in the last two years. More than that, actually. But three of the apprentices that went through in the last three years have pitched program ideas to us two of which have already gone into production. John Melville: One of his the show from Ottawa game on. Another one is adapting which is a new scripted show we're doing in BC, and we have a children's show in Saskatoon. Sorry. Regina called how we do, how we do it. Sorry. How we do it that's coming this fall. The the whole idea, though, is that people with disabilities, we are army. If we are anything now in the, you know, 2025, 2026, we are the one place that can mentor and teach people who are interested in media, who want to have a career in media, either in front of the camera or behind the camera. In production and production management. We are the people that can do that. And companies like CBC, Bell, Rogers, you know Cogeco tell us who all do production when they are looking for people and productions that they are interested in making content around. You know, it's our hope that they can maybe have somebody that experienced army in that way, in that mentoring way, come through that door. And we've already seen it happen. We we've got a couple of people that have gone on to CDC and have had shows at CBC that worked at am I this is really, you know, where I see us going now and, and in relation to those high impact shows, the, the new one that I was talking about adapting, which we're producing in Vancouver the young lady who is the creator identifies with the disability from the blind, partially sighted community. John Melville: You know, she has she has created something that we want to really do justice to. We and we have a great production company working with her to realize this production, and it's a significant cost. This, you know, we are I wouldn't say we're taking a gamble on it, because I think it's going to be a great show because everybody feels so positive about it. And we also produce something with Jenny Bovaird just recently, Pretty Blind, which was also a scripted. So taking some chances. But at the core of all our content, you are going to see people with disabilities in front of the camera and behind the camera and ultimately calling the shots. I mean, you know, if probably shouldn't say this, but it's true. You know, my goal is to be replaced by somebody who can better advocate for the disability community with the skills and experience that I that I have as well. You know, and that's what we hope to develop at Ami is people like that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: John, I'd like to thank you for this interview has been very, very insightful for me and I'm really impressed with what you've said. And I think the future looks bright for those who are aspiring to be in front of the camera and behind the camera. And you know, keep up the great work. Go am I go. John Melville: And, Donna, I just have to say as well, you know, you talked about you and I and how long we go back together. And here we are in 2025. And you have a podcast. I'm your guest. I do have to recognize, you know, you have been a stalwart figure in, you know, the the passion and due diligence to the, you know, what you do for the disability community and for people who are blind and partially sighted. And, you know if you weren't doing that, we probably wouldn't be talking today. So it it's a great honor, as I said at the outset, to to be with you. And I thank you for for reaching out to me because it's it's a pleasure to have a chat with you. And it's been a little while, but I always enjoy it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's been a pleasure. Come back anytime. If you ever think that you know you want to share something with our listeners, please do not hesitate to reach out to me. John Melville: I will do, and you the same. Okay. And listen, have a very safe and happy holiday season. However you may celebrate. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you too. John Melville: Best wishes for 2026. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The same to you, John, and we will stay in touch. John Melville: You bet. Thanks, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thanks, John. Take care. John Melville: Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #66: Interview with Carol Trapani, Founder, ConnectALT | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-12-08-2025/ In this uplifting episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Carol Trapani to explore the "why" behind ConnectAlt, a community-driven, fully accessible hub designed to help blind and low-vision people quickly find events, programs, and resources in one place. Carol shares how the idea grew out of her family's lived experience as the mother of Lucy (born blind and determined to do everything), and the frustration of having to hunt across countless separate calendars and websites, an insight validated through extensive conversations with the community. She also describes the platform's early momentum, including its launch at the National Federation of the Blind convention in New Orleans, where strong sign-ups and real stories of connection underscored just how needed this kind of central resource is. Donna then digs into what makes ConnectAlt practical and trustworthy: searchable listings by topic/date/location and virtual vs. in-person, streamlining tools like adding events directly to a user's personal calendar, and experiments (still in progress) around AI-driven assistance and voice workflows. Carol also walks through the realities of sustainability, keeping the service free to users while exploring sponsorship models that avoid clutter and distractions, and explains how the team prioritizes quality control by building direct relationships with organizations and updating listings on a reliable cadence. The conversation ends with an open invitation for listeners to sign up, contribute resources, and support the mission, plus a hopeful note about planning a future in-person meetup in Toronto. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Johnson, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to return equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled. Humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into daily practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets live. Sorry, where policy policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. And I am very, very pleased to welcome Carol Trapani. I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Carol Trapani: Yes you are. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Welcome, Carol. Carol Trapani: Thank you. Thank you so much, Donna. I'm really happy to be here. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, Carol, let's kick things off. And I'd love to start with your first spell. Why? Okay. When did you first razaleigh's. When did you first realize, sorry, that the blind and low vision community needed a single, accessible place to find events, programs, and resources? And what moment turned that realization into ConnectAlt. Carol Trapani: Okay, so I'm the mother of a blind daughter. My daughter Lucy was born blind. She's had several, many corneal transplantation surgeries, and right now has just a little bit of vision in one eye. Not really functional vision, but but she's not all in the dark, just a little bit in her her left eye. And as Lucy is, she wanted, wants to do everything. And so she she said, mom, I want to be an actress and I want to be a writer. And so as a mother, you know, as, as you are aware, like teaching someone who's blind and with all of your amazing degrees that you have. Donna, it's Wow. It's amazing. And kudos. I'm inspired every day when I meet people like you that have walked this earth without vision and have just been so successful, and Lucy was one of those very determined and driven. So I sought out to find blind acting for her. And it took a while to find a person who is also blind that teaches acting for the blind. She and I sought her out through the internet and then through another connection, and I finally reached her. And and so I also as trying to find different other things for Lucy that are more practical for her computer skills or things of that nature. Carol Trapani: I found it was very hard to go to. There's so many available resources and so many wonderful organizations, particularly in the US. There's, I think 2500 in US and Canada that support the blind, but everyone has stuff on their site and a calendar. And so it was very difficult for a sighted person to navigate and to find things for Lucy if she was available that day, where it was, if it was in person, if it was virtual. And so this was a problem that I addressed as a mom. But Lucy's really the brainchild of this. She had in a book she wrote and published, she wanted to create a social network for the blind and low vision in the book. And so she sought after that. She's very social. But at an entrepreneurial program for San Diego State, she submitted the idea. We went through this interviewing process of over 100 people in the space or that are blind with low vision, and really what came out was what the mom was struggling with me, which was really being connected to resources, events and programs. And through our journey of this, we found so many amazing things that are available for people who are blind that you wouldn't think a blind person could surf or rock, climb or ski. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Carol Trapani: Right. But anyway, we're learning a lot, and we've I think the turning point for me, Donna of Wow was we did a soft launch of the site, which Lucy and her best friend Ella created at the San Diego State Launch Pad, the Entrepreneur program. It's completely accessible. We've been working with all the organizations for the blind to and getting their input as we put it together, but we launched at the National Federation of the blind conference in New Orleans in July, and that just one on one conversations we had with we signed up over 350 people that there are only a thousand people attended the event. It was everyone. Please encouraged us. Please keep this up. We really need this. It's so great. And one gal came up to us the next day who had was from a small town in Nebraska, and she said, I don't have any resources close to me. But last night I signed up for a yoga class at The Lighthouse, San Francisco on virtual, and I met three people. She was so thrilled. Wow. It was. It really saw the whole thing in motion. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, the name Lucy, I think suits your daughter, Lucy. And I hope to God that one day I get to meet this young lady. But how was her name chosen? Carol Trapani: Well you know, nothing's nothing's a coincidence. I believe in this world, but my grandmother was named Lucy. And so I have a son who's Luke. And my son. Lucy's brother is three years older than her, and he sought out to become an ophthalmologist. And he's graduated from medical school, and he's become an eye doctor for his because of his sister. And I wanted to name her Lucy, but my husband, Lucy's dad was like, oh, Luke and Lucy. That's too cutesy. So anyway, when Lucy was born, he looked at her and he said, She's Lucy. And we found out she was blind and Saint Lucy, I don't know if you were aware, but Saint Lucy is the patron saint for vision. And so it was just all really meant to be. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, now, as a blind host who often has to hunt across dozens of sites for information, I feel the fragmentation every single week in plain language. How does ConnectAlt reduce that friction for someone like me? Searching for opportunities by topic, date, location, or online and in person? Yes. Carol Trapani: So when you go on ConnectAlt you can search by all of those categories. So if you are interested in sports soccer, it would show where we're at. Adding more to the site every day as we're meeting with individuals on zooms that have these organizations that support the blind, and then people are introducing us. It's just been really wonderful. But we've you can you can search by date. So this past Saturday, Lucy and I had a booth at Wayfinders Christmas Carnival, and it was really beautiful. Stevie Wonder's foundation gave away a scholarship to a young girl who's also a go getter like you and Lucy. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Carol Trapani: And we At the event, I was able to show everyone out today. Today's the carnival, and there's a soccer soccer program, blind soccer program in Los Angeles. And that night, there was a tech group that was meeting online. So there were a few folks there that had signed up for the tech online thing. There were a couple of techie blind techie people there that had interest in meeting other people. So anyway, it does, it does. That's the goal is really to hopefully have as much as possible where someone can say, oh, I'm free, I'd like to do yoga, or I'd like to try to work on my fitness, or I'd like to work on a my professional resume. And then you can connect with the blind professional organization. Or you can connect with Braille Institute does resumes and they have different topics that they do throughout the year for job finding and job preparation, if you will. So that's really the goal is to make it really easy for, for the parents as well. But as a person with low vision or blind to be able to get on the site and connect with their community. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think it would benefit those, especially who live in remote areas. Right? Yes. Yeah. Carol Trapani: Yes. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Clip. Alt is a family powered venture with Lucy and Ella. Okay, yes. From my seat. Lived experience often sharpens products decisions. And how does Lucy's perspective and Ella's media stop's skills shape the platform's voice, feature priorities and community standards? Carol Trapani: So I would say that this is a wonderful question because I think Lucy, Ella and I really do have three different perspectives. So Ella is my godchild, and she and Lucy have known each other since Ella was born. Lucy's a few months older than Ella and Ella's perspective, and I've heard her share this. Is that she doesn't know anyone else who's blind but Lucy, that she has introduced Lucy to so many of her friends and acquaintances, and she gets a perspective of how intimidated maybe someone is that has never met someone who's blind. And and how they act or react in their connecting with Lucy. And then the biggest thing for Ella is the surprise when they hear that Lucy is a published author and she's a scriptwriter, and she created a website and she's traveled around. And so Ella has shared the joy that she gets by being able to introduce other people, sighted individuals on to introduce them to someone like Lucy and introduce them to what? And I believe my perspective of being Lucy's mother as well is I'm always trying to challenge her. I don't want her to be limited by her sight. I don't want her to be limited at all. And so you know, I, I, I tend to, you know, try to stretch your boundaries a bit. Although she's stretching them further than I. But I can tell you to Donna, when I close my eyes and try to, to do something, I go oh. Why was I so, so tough on Lucy about being messy? I think I just missed my mouth, so. Carol Trapani: Oh, lovely. Carol Trapani: So I think our goal as we we've been it's been so wonderful to be able to connect with CEOs of organizations that support the blind. Troy with AIA. Ira has been so generous with his time and his organization and helping us. And so we are able, I think, to in just grassroots and speaking to community members as well as people who support the community, really understand kind of what the priorities should be, and really trying to create a site that takes away a lot of the angst that someone may have, you know, trying to sign up for an event or find an event or find find their their people, if you will, that have, you know, an interest in something that they may have or a goal. And so I think our job really is these one on one zooms we're doing with organizations. And we would encourage anyone who's listening to your program to please email us any thing that they think we should have on our site, or please send the site out to users that they think may benefit. But, you know, I think this is a community platform. So we certainly want to keep enriching the site with great content and then great individuals to engage. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this is a marvelous, marvelous initiative. And, you know, like I wish somebody had thought about this long before, but nothing before. It's time, you know. Right, right. I really I really think it is. Carol Trapani: Right. It's it's a bit of a labor of love. I can share that because it is pretty, you know, pretty time intense in getting the content. Yeah. The girls did a really good site, and we're doing a lot of grassroot exposure. So, like, Lucy and I were at the Wayfinder event this weekend, and it's very joyful because we get to talk to to people and parents and because it won the this founder of Be My Eyes said something to me, Donna, that it had not occurred to me, which is silly based on I'm the mother of a blind child. But he said blindness is a family affair, and it certainly is. The whole family gets involved in helping support, you know, if you're if you're fortunate to have family support, not everybody in the world is whether or not. But but to have that family interaction for a blind individual is, is an important thing. And, and so we were able to speak to families at this event this weekend. And anyway, I felt very we felt very fortunate to be invited and, and we did pick up some information of people that were struggling with certain things that were going to try to help solve. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Lovely. You exhibited at the National Federation of the Blind convention in New Orleans. What did you learn at NFB 2025 about needs, about language and trust that change or validated connect alts roadmap? Carol Trapani: Well, I can tell you that at that event, I mean, I, I was just blown away by the individuals that I met, the inspiring stories that we heard we were validated by everyone that came up to our table and signed there, signed up. But I can share a story. There was a gentleman that we were about to shut everything down. We had because I'm from New Orleans, so I live in we live in California, but I have a big my whole family is there. So I had a lot of support there. And we had a snowball machine and we had beignets in the morning. So we were meeting people through food like you do in New Orleans. And we're about to wrap up. It was the last day, and this gentleman wheels up to our table and his name was Shaquille. And he says that I said, your dad must have named you that name. And he said, yes, because Shaquille O'Neal was his, his favorite basketball player or whatever. And he wheeled up to the chair and table and he said, my name is Shaquille. No sight, no legs, no problem. Carol Trapani: No, God put. Carol Trapani: Me here to inspire people. And he was a motivational speaker and he said this, your site is something that is going to allow. He lived in Alaska, so he flew to New Orleans alone, with no legs, in a wheelchair and blind. Wow. And he's a motivational speaker. And he he I mean, I was in tears hearing his story, but he turned that around, and he said, this is something that I need. I'm in Alaska, so if I can sign up for something virtual that I wasn't even aware of and then I can connect with people and even help improve his own craft. Of speaking he he took a bunch of our little NFC tags with him that connect to the site, and he ended the event for us in a big way. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. That must have been really, really moving. I think I would be in tears myself. Carol Trapani: I was Donna. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. Now, many platforms say that they are accessible. But the some details matter. Carol Trapani: Yes they do. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Could you walk me through specific choice like skip link, keyboard flow headings and screen reader cues that you have implemented and what you still want to test or audit against wcaG? Carol Trapani: Yes. Carol Trapani: So Ella, Ella and Lucy really worked with the team at San Diego State in the lab to work on the site, creating the site with a lot of help. Lucy had, I would say she's not as tech savvy. Lucy isn't. She's more of a social person, but she had a half a dozen friends who are very tech savvy. In fact, a couple were teachers. When she attended the California School for the blind, there was a few of us. One was a blind person who was the tech, person at the school. And so and then the Braille Institute was very helpful as well in reviewing our site and making recommendations. So Lucy's team they would put the site together, they'd get feedback, they'd go back to the drawing board and they'd continue to try to improve it. The, the one thing that we have tried, and we had to take it off the site because it wasn't working. But it is a goal. And I think we're going to get there is we we worked with the brilliant folks at Infosearch and they and they put together AI on our site, but it wasn't drawing from our site. So if you went if you asked AI on our site for yoga class in your area, for example, it would pull, you know, yoga classes all over the place. It wasn't specific to the stuff that was on the site that was tailored for someone with low vision, So they tried a few attempts and took it down, and they're still kind of working on that. So what we really what we really did change was we were able to, from our site, add to the calendar someone's personal calendar. Carol Trapani: Right. Carol Trapani: The event so that they didn't have to sign up, then go to the calendar. So we're trying to streamline. That was one of the things that we did here. And then the other was that if we could create this where it was a voice AI to say, sign me up for a, you know, a tech class or surfing or whatever in San Diego, wherever the case is for blind surfing. And then can you also put on my calendar to call the Waymo, you know, 30 minutes before and can you so that that it could be everything on this, it could make it as smooth transition as possible to get out the door and to go attend the event. Carol Trapani: Wow. Carol Trapani: We're not there yet, Donna, but we're working on that. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're getting there? Yes. I mean, even that is innovative. I am really impressed, I really am. Carol Trapani: Thank you. Thank you. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, I know that early stage teens agonize over sustainability. Carol Trapani: Yes. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What business model options are you exploring that keep the platform free for end users while getting organizations valuable tools with all without compromising editorial integrity? Carol Trapani: Yes. Carol Trapani: So this is something that we have been working on and continue to work on. So at the program that we got into at San Diego State for the idea that is all part of it. It's like, how will you be able to make this sustainable for the, for the users. Carol Trapani: And. Carol Trapani: And create some sort of a monetization package. So and we've we've been fortunate, like I said, to meet with many people in this space from the commercial side. So like the IRAs of the world that have been like, I can't even say enough how wonderful they've been the whole team. And so this is where we think we are that we want to keep it free for the user. And I think that is probably, you know, a consistent theme in In the Blind Space is, you know, trying to provide these resources and services at no cost to the user. So that leaves sort of two areas. One are the organizations that support the blind, mostly non-profits. There's, like I said, just the wayfinders and the lighthouses of the of the US. They're all separate. But and those folks have the great content. They have great delivery of, of resources. But they're non-profits and they also have a user base that they can connect us with. So we kind of see that as our partnership with them is getting their content, making sure it's accurate on our site, providing outreach for them, but also them providing outreach to us. So we we really see a model to be more of a sponsorship type of model. One of the big things, as you know, is not to have a bunch of advertising on the site with photos or anything, because that's a big distraction for for the blind user. You know, we want to keep that. So our thought would be, is that based on the number of users there, there are models out there, like a monthly sponsorship model for companies that would want to, you know, promote on our site. Carol Trapani: And so our thought would be is we could highlight a sponsor of the day and just have a little blurb about that, but have a whole sponsorship page where people could connect in to those organizations as you know, as they see fit or as, as a need. And that model is probably the the one at this point that we would we have not signed up any sponsors yet. We're trying to increase our base. We're our goal is to try to get to 1000 users by the end of the year. So we're getting close. But, you know, I think I think Donna and I don't know, there's so many different numbers about how many folks that are blind and low vision, but I think the number that I there's like 8 million tech savvy blind people in the, in North America, I don't know how accurate that number is. That was from I think the World Health Organization or one of those. So it's not a big percentage of folks that we need to sign up that we're trying to sign up as users. But the more the more users, the more engagement we get, the better information we have on the site. And then I think the the better it is all the way around. We can support it. We can sustain it. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How many members make up your team? Carol Trapani: So right now we have Ella and Lucy and I are the founders. And then we have three interns currently. So we were able to we've connected with the National Association of Blind Students again. Makes me feel very embarrassed about how I'm not as accomplished as these people. Carol Trapani: These young people. Carol Trapani: That have multiple degrees. Carol Trapani: And don't be embarrassed. Carol Trapani: I'm joking a bit, but again, you know, the gal that is working with us, she's she has her masters, she's getting a teaching degree. And so she's a national association of blind students. She is interning for us. And then we, San Diego and San Diego State, we have an intern. And then we have another unpaid intern. So we have three unpaid interns, Ella, Lucy and I. So there's just five of us right now. Carol Trapani: Wow. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good start. Carol Trapani: Yes. A lot of work. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And do you sleep at night? Carol Trapani: Well, it's a good. It's a good reason to have bags under my eyes. And so any of your listeners, if anyone again, if they have any, any organizations or anything they'd like us to add, please do. And if, if anyone be would be interested in being a free intern, we would love that for you. We would help someone with their resume building or anything of that nature. Because again, it is a community site. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, as I sit listening to you, my mom said to me the other day, she was born too early for technology. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, it's true. Carol Trapani: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Yeah it's true. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Listings quality is everything. Carol Trapani: Yes. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. How do you vet organizations and events? Prevent outdated information and handle moderation so that a parent, student, or professional can trust what they find on Connect alt. Carol Trapani: So right in the in our initial phase, we've had we've paid very close attention to making sure that what we put on the site is, is, is accurate, up to date. And so we had a couple of little glitches along the way. That and it's, and it was because we didn't have a direct conversation with the provider. What happened was there's the blind athletic. Oh, gosh, I'm at Northwest Blind Athletic Association. They have amazing classes that they do virtual for fitness. And so we we were connected to them through someone else. We went on their site and we put their information on the site, and the poor gal that runs the organization, called me and said, we're overwhelmed with the number of people who have signed up on our classes. And so we we kind of we had to go back and put limit to 20. And so we learned from there. Wait, we need to have real direct communication, not just an internet search. And then this was actually forwarded to us by someone who who had attended a lot of their fitness classes. So and, but but we didn't call and set the zoom up first. So that was a little bit trial by error. We learned that we have to have a direct conversation with all of the folks, which is why it's taken us a little bit more time to get everything up on the site. Carol Trapani: But we're making great progress there. So what we do, Donna, is we'll we'll reach out to the organization, we'll set up a zoom, we'll share with them what we're doing. I have not had one group say that this is a bad idea. Every every one of the organizations. Oh, this is so needed. I can't believe that no one's been able to do this yet. I know it's a it's a big lift, and we're here to help. And we'll make sure that we update this so they'll share with us, like wayfinder or I think maybe Braille Institute does their events or their programs. They update every quarter. So we have we call them once a quarter. We go through this with the events that they want us to post or that, you know, because some may not be ones that they may be already maxed out. So we want to make sure we get that out. So no one's getting frustrated. So and then some posts there's annually some do it monthly. So Ella and Lucy have a pretty big calendar going. And when they they reach out via email, they send us their calendar and we update it accordingly. So I think it's that kind of communication that's, that's trying to keep us as accurate as possible. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's a lot of work, isn't it? Carol Trapani: It is. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But listening to you, it gives me a headache. Carol Trapani: You know what, Donna? I mean it. My day job, my commercial real estate I've done for over 30 years. And I love my job. Obviously, I've been my career this long, but this has been just magical because everyone really wants to help and support each other. And every time I get off of one of these zooms, I learn something new and I connect with another beautiful soul. Carol Trapani: So yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, from the SD, from the s d s you use zoom, you sdsu's? Yes. Zip. Carol Trapani: Launchpad. Yes. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: To warm introductions in our community, mentorship and networks accelerate. Impact. Which mentors or partners, formal or informal, have been pivotal for Connect Alt and what doors did they open for you? Carol Trapani: Oh, wow. So when we got accepted into the program, there was our mentor who was given to us by San Diego State. And these there's two gentlemen that they split up the the group, and they divide them up based on, you know, the company that you're trying to build and maybe their level of interest. And that's how we got introduced to IRA, the CEO of IRA. And so that wind up being just he was again, Troy put us on his calendar for a half hour, and we, we you know, we talked about the idea. He gave us some input and he said, you know, when you're ready, reach back out. Feel free to reach back out on my calendar. And we were going down to San Diego. He's in San Diego, and I asked if he'd meet for coffee instead, which we had a half hour and we wind up meeting for over two hours. And I just again, I can't say enough about how much these early mentors in these folks that really first of all, they believed in the idea and they they want to help, you know, the community for the blind. So it's an added besides a business thing, it's an added, you know, philanthropic value, I think for for a lot of people when, when they really understand what we're trying to do. So it those, those meetings were invaluable. And then once we got past the first year and we built the site we were given another mentor who is, you know, a business consultant, and she's kind of once a month, we have a call with her and tell her what we're doing, and they kind of encourage us on, on taking new steps. So the zip launchpad at San Diego State was invaluable. Carol Trapani: Wow. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you've built a high stakes career at CBRE, navigating complex transactions and long term client relationships. Which skills from commercial real estate, prospecting and negotiating the execution discipline translate most directly to building a national access platform? Carol Trapani: Okay, so. Carol Trapani: I it's a great question. I would say that Carol Trapani: Being tenacious if you are. Carol Trapani: Is probably one of the ones that, you know, that kind of drive of what you have to do in a, when you're a self-starter in commercial real estate. Yeah. And I would also say just one of the things I love the most and maybe my daughter takes this gets this from me is the relationship building piece. And getting to meet so many people like I've shared with you, like you, Donna, that have just done so much for the blind community and selfless selflessly have been putting yourself out there to help. And I think that that has been like the creating, developing relationships that I hope create long lasting ones, I think would be the most valuable from my commercial real estate experience to connect. All because it's about people. Carol Trapani: Really. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes it is. My clock is starting to wind down, but I have two important questions for you. And the first one is have you ever been to Canada? Carol Trapani: Yes, Claire. Carol Trapani: I've been to Vancouver and I've been dying to go to Toronto because I heard Toronto is the food capital, one of the food capitals of the world. And I like. Carol Trapani: Food. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So how long ago was this? Carol Trapani: So I was in Vancouver for a wedding. Carol Trapani: It was. Carol Trapani: You know, everything now is pre Covid post Covid. So it was pre Covid. So I gosh I guess 7 or 8 years ago. It's been a while. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Don't you think it's time for another visit. Carol Trapani: Yes I'm coming Donna. Carol Trapani: I'm coming. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're coming. I'm very, very serious. I'd love to meet you and Ella and Lucy. Carol Trapani: Great. Carol Trapani: Donna, where are you? Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Toronto. Carol Trapani: Oh, you're in Toronto. Oh, well, we should definitely plan on coming. And then perhaps we can meet with some of the organizations to for the blind that are there. And while we're there and and meet, of course, come to meet you and then also, you know, meet other organizations while we're there would be helpful for us to continue to add on to the site. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Definitely. So that is one of the initiatives we will plan for sometime next year. Carol Trapani: I would love. Carol Trapani: That. Great. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So my final question to you is what is your call to action for parents, for students, for organizations? And you know, I'm most interested to know, especially for those who have, you know, were born with a vision impairment. I'll just let you know. I've had several cornea transplants myself. So I do share something with Lucy. Carol Trapani: Yeah, she. Carol Trapani: Said 20 plus. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I only had five. Carol Trapani: That's five is five is a lot. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's very, very stressful. And on the other day surgeon asked me, would you, would you like to regain your sight? And I said, no. You know why? It's too stressful. Yeah, it's too stressful. And you know, my mom has walked the walk with me, and she's still with us. But, you know, I it's not. It's not the same. Carol Trapani: Yeah. No, I understand. Lucy. Lucy, you should definitely share those feelings with each other as well. I think it would be. It would be helpful for Lucy to hear what you've said to me as well. So, you know, I, I would say that Gosh, I got lost in our question. I was just thinking about what you said, Donna. And so if you could repeat the question again. So I make sure I'm answering everything that. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What is your call to action? Yes. Parents for students, for organizations of and for persons with disabilities, especially for those with, with sight impairments. So your call to action. Carol Trapani: So our call to action is from the community based. The individuals that can get the most out of this site is to sign up on the site, because the more users we have and the more engagement we have, then we can make this sustainable and continue to grow the platform internationally and within, you know, within the communities at large. For the organizations that support the blind to send us your content, you know, connect us with your members so that, again, we can provide outreach for them and outreach for the events that they would like to, to showcase in and for the community to be able to actually participate in. And so, again, in the organizations that or maybe on the commercial side, the, the for profit organizations, the folks that do the great technology, etc., would be to support our site. And, you know, I believe that with organizations like Waymo and Google and the world is thinking of blindness in a different way than they did in the past. And you know, I do believe as a sighted person, very often we're blinded by our sight. So it goes both ways. You know, sometimes the lack of vision of someone with sight overtakes them. Whereas my daughter Lucy, not seeing something, has much greater insight to share with the world. And I think being able to connect and connect alt by improving someone's life either through entertainment or through education, but primarily through other other individuals who have walked the same journey or walking the same journey would be a gift. It would be. It would be a gift. And so the call to action is for us to all connect on, connect alt and make it a better sight for everyone that's using it and for everyone who can benefit from it. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It has been a pleasure having you in my interview on my podcast. I really, really appreciated, Carl. And if there's anything I could do, you know, in the future, I'd love to stay in touch. I'd love to collaborate with you in any way, shape or form. And hopefully we get to see you in Toronto. Carol Trapani: And yes, we will. We will definitely make a plan. Well, offline, I'll, I'll email and we'll get some. We'll try to get a date for 2026 that, you know, maybe works in your schedule and, and everyone that's listening. It's our website is WW connect. So connect. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Com thank you very much and have a great rest of the day. And hello to Lucy. Carol Trapani: Thank you Donna. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye bye bye. Bye now. Carol Trapani: Bye bye. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #65: Interview with Jilla Bond, Life Coach | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-12-04-2025/ In this richly reflective episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes her longtime friend, mentor, and travel companion, Jilla Bond, for a conversation about a life lived as a "mosaic" of careers and caring. Jilla describes leaving school with little confidence and no clear path, then gradually building a portfolio of roles across politics, business, and design, from opening Margaret Thatcher's mail to directing a major international design conference in Montreal that transformed her understanding of design as something that can radically improve people's lives, like a child's wheelchair built to feel like a sports car. She explains how these experiences, along with later work in high-end Italian lighting and growing a company with very low staff turnover, shaped her people-first philosophy and her approach as a life coach: listening deeply, asking careful questions, and helping others find their own answers rather than imposing solutions. Together, Donna and Jilla also unpack the heart of their friendship and shared travels, from law school graduation in London where Jilla guided Donna across the stage and Princess Anne personally congratulated her, to an emotional pilgrimage to the Normandy beaches and Canadian cemetery, to trips across Europe and Lourdes. Jilla talks about learning to "paint color into Donna's canvas" by narrating faces, spaces, menus, landscapes, and small details that many sighted people take for granted, as well as the humility and practical problem-solving involved in being a sighted guide: planning for assistance, asking strangers for help when needed, keeping social interactions to small groups, and building in quiet breaks so both travelers can recharge. She also shares her idea of "speaking dementia", finding simple, respectful, and often musical ways to connect with people whose reality is shifting, and makes a broader plea to treat both young people and elders with genuine respect, doing with rather than to. The episode closes with Jilla's gentle challenge to listeners: if you're traveling with a blind or sight-impaired friend, don't be afraid, imagine what you would want in their place, stay curious, communicate openly, and you'll likely find the journey richer for both of you. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jane Johnson, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than 20 or 2 dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as one shared workbench for policy meets, lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Jilla Bond, my good friend, my mentor, my advisor. Welcome to my Remarkable World Commentary. Jilla Bond: Thank you. I'm very pleased to be able to be here with you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So let's get started. You've described your working life as a mosaic of different careers and roles. But if a listener were to ask you who is Isabella Bond professionally and personally. How would you introduce yourself and that mosaic journey in your own words? Jilla Bond: Well, my life started very well, but my education was not such a big success. So in the era that I grew up in, a long time ago education for girls was pretty limited. Unless you were very, very bright. And you could go on to get a degree. And I did not fall into that category. So I left school young with very little confidence. And that really influenced very strongly my early life. My parents were older and my they were not in a position to pay any further fees for me. And so I went to a what would be now known as a business administration course. And I did that. And that led me to go to work in different offices. And my career, the reason I call it a mosaic is because the jobs that I have done have been very varied, because basically I went to work. I obviously applied for jobs and was interviewed and so on. But I didn't necessarily go into one sector and try to stay there. So if something sounded interesting and sounded different, then I would apply. So it meant that I worked in the periphery of politics. I opened all Margaret Thatcher's mail when she was first elected as leader of the opposition. And. That ranged from working in advertising companies and a variety of different roles. So it led to the role that took me into working with the Transatlantic Alliance and the British North American Committee. And I learned there how to organize conferences and events, and that became very valuable in a later, at a later date. But I also met people from academia, from senior business people from the trades unions movements. And I've always been fascinated by people. So that really was a big springboard for me. That happened coincidentally through me just taking random jobs so that I could pay my way. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. One of the big creative landmarks in your story is your work on that international design conference in Montreal. Can you take us inside that project? What the design was, what you actually did to bring it to life and what those years taught you about the power of design? Jilla Bond: I will view design was something that I tumbled into by coincidence. I knew some people who were putting on an exhibition of Canadian art and design, and to get government funding they needed to do, they needed to have a conference, and they were looking for someone who had had experience in organizing conferences at a reasonably high level. And as I just explained, that was one of the jobs that I'd had previously. So I took on the role as conference director, but I knew nothing about the world of design at that time, and someone introduced me to a very prominent designer in Montreal and I said, well, if you were doing this, who would you invite? And they gave me a list of people I think they intended me to choose from that list. But in reality, I contacted all of them and nobody said no. So when they arrived at the conference, they were all wondering because they all thought they were coming as the keynote speaker and why all the competition was there too. But what was fascinating was there were people from design, the world of design, of wallpapers, of interiors, of. Go karts for children, bicycles, Children. And there was one particular person who fascinated me because he was designing a wheelchair for children and he had gone into. Jilla Bond: An home where he could meet the children who needed wheelchairs. And he sat down with them and said, what would you like? And they all said they would like something that was like a Porsche or a fancy car. So when he came to design his chair, he made it into something much superior to any other wheelchairs that had ever been made, and much more exciting, so that the children could race around a playground within the wheelchair so they could play with their friends. And what I learned from being in the world of design was not only at a personal level, a very pleasant discovery that I was quite capable of organizing such a keynote event, but that design is fundamental to making people's lives better. I think many people view design as something visual, something that may enhance surroundings. You look at, as I said, wallpapers or beautiful statues and things. And I would suspect I'm not alone in thinking, having thought that design was primarily to do with just making beautiful objects. But this really taught me that excellent design, and particularly engineering design, learned to use new materials in new ways. And I started to find that absolutely fascinating. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Alongside all of this, you trained and practiced as a life coach? How did your experiences in design, policy, health and caring feed into the way you coach people? And what kinds of crosswords or transitions do people tend to bring to you? Jilla Bond: Well, by the time I trained as a life coach many years had gone by of experience in different fields, doing different things, including via design, but many other things as well. And what I learned from all of it and my my approach to life coaching, which I use very regularly but not on a formal basis anymore, is very much to listen very carefully to the people around me or to the person whom I'm trying to of to whom I'm trying to offer assistance and understand what their real desires are and where they want to go with their life, and then to with a little bit of careful questioning, try to guide them in a way and build up their confidence so that they themselves come to the right conclusions. Because I don't think there's anything to be gained by imposing ideas onto people. You need to encourage them to think through what their real aims are and maybe get into a discussion. What is it that you really want in this particular change of field, or whatever it may be that you're doing? And this lesson about the fundamentals of design and finding the right materials to make the best solutions for design, and being innovative and thinking of new ideas certainly fed into my work as a life coach and certainly into my working career. Jilla Bond: Because the life coaching really came out of building companies at a later date. I joined the Via Design Italian lighting company, and when I first joined them, they were just turning over, I don't know, £300,000. And then we built it into a company at the very sharp end of design that was turning over 4.5 million. So but to do that, one of the things I'm most proud of is we had very little turnover of staff. And I think the reason we had very little turnover of staff is because we were very careful to be very respectful and to treat people and to listen to them if they had complaints or had things that they wanted changed, and to really talk through whether we could make it happen and if we couldn't make it happen, explain to them very clearly why, in a very rational and reasonable way. And I think that is the way to help people move forward with their lives, is to help them see it more clearly and help them find the purpose that is going to take them forward. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very true. I mean, you know, it's very Yeah. Very true. Jilla Bond: You need to always put people at the center. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Jilla Bond: You must work with what people are telling you and then try to work out from that. If you make that the fulcrum of the discussion and then work out from that and explore different possibilities. And some they may reject and some they may like. Right. Fundamentally let them make their own decisions, because if you're imposing things, it will never work. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's true. That's true. You've often said that your deepest Passions include young adults and older people, fairness and freedom, and of course, people and good organization. When you look across your life, how have those passions guided your choices even when you were changing sectors or taking risks? Jilla Bond: I think whenever I've moved into a company, I think it's fair to say I'm I'm not a shrinking violet. Should we put it that way? So when when I've moved into a company, I've always needed to find some people with whom I could collaborate strongly. And you find people who are really well organized, but you also understand that it comes back to. The question of really being in tune with the people around you. And the reason I am fascinated by young people is because I had a very difficult, well, not very difficult in comparison with some, but in my world, not an easy adolescence and early adulthood. And I think it was because I lived in an era where people were trying to impose upon me ways of doing things without looking at me as a person and seeing my personality and realizing that trying to put me in boxes was never going to work. I was going to wrestle my way out. So I like to get into discussions with young people I like because of the lack of confidence that I had. I like to do anything I can to build their confidence, to help them, to feel that they can definitely make a good life, even if they've had a difficult beginning. Jilla Bond: And I think at the other end of the spectrum, I think older people can very quickly be discarded. I think they can. People are often, sadly not slow to put people into homes. And I had a slightly feisty discussion with a person at a function one day and they were saying, oh well, her parents were going to do this and were going to do that. And I just very quietly said, is that what they want? Because I think people are who've lived long lives and often had very interesting lives. They may not have had remarkable lives in the bigger sense of the world, but they will all have, through the course of their lives, done interesting things, and they shouldn't be dismissed. They should very definitely be treated with the respect that everyone is due, not just older people or younger people, but everybody. And so I feel very strongly that older people should be listened to and communicated with in a way that works for them with respect and understanding, and they usually have very interesting stories to tell. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can certainly confirm this with my own mom. I mean, like, you know, she has so many stories to tell. And then she often says to her caregivers, you know, if you get to my age, you'll be darn lucky. So let me pass on my knowledge to you. My advice to you like, don't think that you know it all. And I don't know anything because I'm old. Jilla Bond: You know you have it in a nutshell. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So. Jilla Bond: And people, I'm sure the caregivers and I know some of them have been absolutely wonderful, and some of them could probably learn from the ones that are absolutely wonderful. But I. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Agree. Jilla Bond: They have a tendency to do too, rather than do with. And I guess in life, If you do with people and not do to them, you will get much, much better results and you will have a much richer feedback and interaction. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree, I do agree. After many years of Christmas cards and long distance connection, we have had that big reconnection in 2009. In 2019, when you drove me from London up to Windermere and on to Liverpool. From your side of things, what stands out about that trip, both as a driver and as a sighted guide for a blind friend? Jilla Bond: I think well, one of the key lessons for me was the first night that we stayed in the little hotel where you were going to the chess tournament, And I came to meet you to go down to breakfast. And I walked into your room. And of course, obviously there was no light on. And I went to turn the light on. And it was a very strong lesson for me in the world that you live in. And it stayed with me throughout all our many trips that we've done since that, and that something I take totally for granted is something you don't, but you take your life for granted without that. And I think it was a great eye opener. And I don't mean that as a pun, but it was for me. It was an eye opener to to realize loud and clear some of the key differences. And I think I've said to you several times, every time you've come on a trip, something new has struck me of The challenges that you face on a daily basis that I don't because I can see and that's ranging from how you pack a bag, how you always turn out for the day, and color coordinated clothes. I and they're clean and they don't have any marks on them. Jilla Bond: And I'm always very impressed with the smaller details of things that we would take totally for granted that obviously for you, you've had to find a way to negotiate those situations. And in our most recent trip, I remember feeling embarrassed because I'd forgotten to put the card in the key slot to put the lights on, and when I needed to use the bathroom, I had to go and put the card in the slot because I couldn't see in the bathroom without the light on. And I think those kinds of experiences bring home the world that you're living in. I also learnt to look very carefully at the things I find interesting and that I liked, and to start to talk to you about them. And when we went to meet your family in Liverpool, I took a propitious moment to tell you how tall they were and which ones laughed the most and what they looked like, and to try to add some color to the picture that you were experiencing. So I think it was learning to try to live my life in, not live my life, trying to support our trip, to make it interesting for you to try to add some of the color of the things I could see that you couldn't. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think I'll ever forget when we went to Liverpool and the family came and they all stood in a circle around me and I thought, oh dear God, what do these people look like? And you were quick to the, you know, quick on the ball with it. And he told me, you described it to me, described them to me, and it helped. It really did help, you know. Jilla Bond: Well, I think yes. You can't. I mean, you get a huge amount from hearing someone's voice. Yeah. But and you are very quick and, you know, people's voices and you're very good at remembering. I think your memory is absolutely phenomenal. But I think it's only fair to be able to say this one's tall, that one's thin, and this one's not with not being rude in any way about them, but just to give a paint a paint a bit more color into the picture so that you can experience more the way we would. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Not long after my law school graduation in London, you drove me to Normandy so that I could honor the soldiers who fought and died there. What was that journey like for you, navigating Berlin's cemeteries, beaches and history with me alongside you, using a white cane? Jilla Bond: Well, again, I learned that long drives, which I love and because I watch the world go by, are excellent moments for you to take a snooze, because obviously you don't have the interest value of seeing the countryside going by that I do. So the first thing I think I really understood was whilst this was a wonderful journey and I really enjoyed it too, because ironically, it was something I hadn't done and it's a very moving and emotional thing to do. And it was just after the big anniversary and it was very it was full of feeling and emotion and very a very colorful and deep experience. I also I mean, you were very, very moved by it, and that affected me as well. And we managed to go to the different beaches, and we had that incredible walk through the Canadian cemetery, which was very, very impactful, very emotional too. And yes. And then we I think it was Juno Beach that we went to and the parking lot was full and there was a sort of cafe at the end, and it was lunchtime, and we felt we needed a little something. And I saw the hotel across the road and I said, you know, I think we can go and park in the hotel over there. Jilla Bond: So we went over to the hotel and I remember saying to you, do you like oysters? Oh, yes. Said to you, I haven't had an oyster for ages. And it also. So there were it brought home to me to be sure to look at every detail of where we are and what we're doing, and to try to bring it to life for you. So I think I became more observant and trying to pick out the really salient points of the places we were visiting and the things we were doing. And because I'm your eyes and I need to think in terms of telling you what's on the menu, telling you exactly the choices are not picking out the ones I think you might like, but giving you a general and genuine overview of what what is available for a sighted person so that you are getting as close to a sighted experience as you can. So whether I'm describing the sea or the sand, or how the guys must have been going up this immense length of beach under fire, or whether we're sitting down to have a meal because it's lunchtime and just being sure that you know what the options are and not just picking out 1 or 2 things that I think you might like. Jilla Bond: And as we get to know each other better I can as we have become to know each other better then I can say well oh they've got these or they've got that. And then knowing that those are the kinds of things that you would like. But to begin with it was much more exploratory and to push boundaries because if you if I don't tell you that there are oysters and mussels on the menu. You won't know and you'll probably choose a sandwich or something. So I think I think it's thinking that extra mile to try to bring. The cited options, opening them up for you as well. I think the fact that we were driving through the villages with all the flags hanging from the lampposts, and the fact that the flags on the lampposts had pictures of the people who'd been killed during the D-Day landings. And those details are not letting them go by without bringing them to your attention. Even though it's emotional, it adds to the color of what we're doing. And I see it as trying to paint color into your Canvas. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You certainly did. And I will never forget that trip. You know, when I set out that time with you to visit Normandy. I'm not sure what I was going to what I expected, but I certainly got a hell of a lot more. And you certainly helped by, you know, describing stuff by telling me stuff, by inserting, you know, what you saw, what you heard, what you felt. And and it really, really has left a lifelong mark on, on my life. And I want to thank you for that. Jilla Bond: Oh, believe you me, it did it for me, too, because we covered quite a lot of ground. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah. Jilla Bond: I mean, the other aspect of it too is there's never a lost good. And in describing it to you, it made me pay attention more so that I benefited more from what we were doing and what we were seeing and the places we were going to. And I remember taking a they had a big mural on the wall of one of the beaches we went to, and I took a picture of you underneath it, and so that you could show it to your friends. And it made me look at that mural much more carefully. So it's it's a double edged sword. It means that I take in much more detail because I'm not really a detail person, and it makes me take in more detail than I would normally. Which is. Which is lovely. It's very beneficial. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think sitting here listening to you now brings back a lot of those memories, especially going through this cemetery. And and you know, you describing the the Canadian headstones to me. You know, it really brings back a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Jilla Bond: And remembering to to to taste the Produce of the areas that we go to. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes. Yes, indeed. Jilla Bond: You know, little glass of cider or a nice glass of wine to go with the oysters and the rules. And, you know, it's because I'm lucky enough to live very close to these areas, I can I may not have been to the beaches specifically, but I can certainly tell you what the local produce are. And this is a local cheese, and this is these are local biscuits and those kinds of things which I think add flavour and add to the experience of any trip. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It does, it does. You sometimes talk about learning to speak dementia. For our listeners, could you unpack that phrase for me? What does speaking dementia look like and feel like in a real conversation with someone whose memory and Reality may be very different from yours. Jilla Bond: It's back to what we were saying earlier in the conversation. It's working. I mean, with everybody with dementia, everybody's dementia is individual. And dementia is, as most people would understand, is an umbrella term for many different conditions. And the learning to speak dementia really is learning to be able to communicate with people who are living with dementia to whatever degree they are able to do. And it's not straightforward. You need to find a common denominator in a way and to understand that person. Maybe if they have a carer or somebody who's around them more regularly, or when I was doing the caring. You learn to understand what their minds can still. Process and some of it is describing things. Some of it's keeping it very simple and not getting fussed or cross or upset. Just because you can't communicate or you can't understand. Just keep starting again, but with very simple sentences. Very not in a not in a baby talk. I have a horror of people who talk to older people with that. Jilla Bond: Are you all right, Mary? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Jilla Bond: These are human beings who've led rich lives, and it's so disrespectful. And so I think learning to speak dementia is finding a common denominator through which you can communicate. And one of the best ways to do that with people with dementia is songs, singing and music. And if particularly if you can find music that has meant something to them during their lives. So for my own mother, for example, musicals, and suddenly, out of nowhere, she would be able to sing songs from musicals. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow. Jilla Bond: For somebody whose ability to communicate was very limited by the end, she was well over 100. So it's not surprising, but. Right to be able to have that common denominator of both knowing the same song from a musical meant we could communicate together at that particular moment by singing that song together, and that creates a warmth for them and it creates a warmth for you, particularly if it's someone you're close to, like a mother or a father or a relation or a friend. If it's someone you're working with again, you're building a rapport, you're building trust, you're building. I mean, there was a lady that I worked with for quite a long period of time. I was with her for nearly two years, just covering two days a week. So the other, the the regular carer, could have a time out. And she never knew my name, but she beamed like a beacon when I came through the door, because she knew my voice and I would come in with a cheery hello and how are you today? And she would just greet me with this massive smile, and it set us off on a very good, a very good note for the two days we were going to spend together. So it's really a question of getting to know the person you're trying to communicate with. Speaking dementia, in my mind, and I think to be honest, that's probably the basis of most of my communications now, is trying to understand and trying to listen to people, but really hearing them and hearing what they're saying. And if you hear some distress, either you move it on. If it's not something you can help with, or you let people talk it through. So I think for me, it's learning to communicate with people with dementia, but not trying to not just by speaking louder. You know, some people, when they feel they're not being understood, just speak louder. Yes, you really need to go back and start again and try to find a different common denominator. And learning. Great patience. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yeah. A lot of patience is needed, but I think too many of us often think that when we speak louder, the person will hear us. And sometimes my mom would say, don't yell at me. And I. I catch myself and I say, I'm sorry. You know, I didn't mean that. But, you know, that's a natural reaction, right? Jilla Bond: And I think also it's very easy to get frustrated. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jilla Bond: Because you're trying to communicate something that isn't perhaps getting the response that you had hoped for and you get frustrated. We all do it. You start again with a bit louder. You do it with children too, you know, voice going up. They don't stop when you first ask them. You know, you find yourself very quickly the voice going up a little bit. And I think it's a great life lesson to just stand back, take a deep breath and start again on a different tack. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Jilla Bond: And try a different way of getting the message across that you wish to communicate. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We have been traveling together since 2022, and the one thing that is a highlight for me was the day you walked across the stage with me when I graduated from law school. Tell us briefly, how did you feel walking across that stage with me? Jilla Bond: Well, very proud of you for a start. Thank you. I think it's absolutely remarkable the the studies that you've achieved, the exams that you've passed. I'm always lost in admiration for anyone who passes an exam because I've not. It's not a talent I've mastered. I was very touched by Princess Anne, who registered that you were unsighted and actually took the trouble to speak to you and say, congratulations, Donna. And I thought that that was very I mean, obviously she was well briefed, but she'd remembered and I thought that was very impressive. I was delighted for you and trying to be as inconspicuous as I could, because it wasn't my day. It was your day. But you just needed my guiding hand. That was all. But it was a very proud moment, I think. I think certainly something I've never done in my own right. And so it gave me a chance to experience something I wouldn't have known about otherwise. Well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I was absolutely blown away by this voicing. Congratulations, Don. And then it dawned on me, that must be Princess Anne. And I thought, oh, dear, you know. Yeah. Jilla Bond: She's a remarkable woman, though. She definitely is. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. Jilla Bond: But I thought that was that was very much an example of how polished she is And I was briefed and how she remembers. That was good. Now I'm very proud and I'm glad we made it into a celebration. I'm glad we did all the things that that everyone else was going to do. Had a little glass of champagne and so we should. Yeah, that was a great day. A very brilliant day, because it's not your first degree either. I mean, you know, you're an old hand at that now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, I think it's time for me to stop, though, because it's, it's it's getting a bit, you know, tiresome in ways I need to enjoy life in many other ways. But I think we we have a we have a big trip planned next year. And as the clock winds down, I wanted to ask you what tips, suggestions, hints or thoughts would you like to share with our listeners with regard to if someone was thinking of going on a trip with a blind slash sight impaired person. What are some of the thoughts you would like to share with them? Jilla Bond: Don't be. Don't be afraid of doing it. I think some people would. Well, obviously it depends very much who you're going with. Yeah, I think obviously we can never put ourselves into your shoes. But I do think that by giving it some serious thought, if I. If the roles were reversed, what would I want to happen? What would I want to experience? If it was me that was unsighted and someone was kind enough to go with me? I would want to laugh. I would want it to be fun. I would want to know all about what's on the menus, what drinks we can have Of when we're having a nice little cocktail in the evening. What different cocktails that can be, what different foods there are. I would want to know as we board a train, you know, to to go and find the people who will give us assistance and make sure they do. And genuinely, I think that for me, it's always do as you would be done by so try. Although it's so difficult for a sighted person to put themselves in the shoes of somebody who has lived without sight. Luckily for me, you had that moment when you had functional vision. So you. I can describe things in colours and you know what I'm talking about. But we've built a relationship now whereby if there's something you're not sure about or if there's something you're not keen on, you say, and we work it out. But that would be my main tip, I think what we have found is some countries are much better than others at being considerate. I think the white cane is very helpful. It may be a little annoying to have to take it all the time, but I do think it gives other people a chance to know that they can be helpful by giving us a wider berth, by not jostling, by helping with not being afraid to ask for help. I remember that famous day when we were in Budapest trying to get on a train. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yes. Jilla Bond: And we had two reasonably large bags, and we were at the bottom of the stairs and there was no lift, no porter, nobody around, and the people behind the counters were really rude. I went to try to get some help, and the only option was to look for a nice, strong young men and say, excuse me please, will you be kind enough to carry our bags up? And we have never, ever had someone say to us. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no, no, no. Jilla Bond: We had 1 or 2 young people who very kindly put our cases on the train and up on the racks and where they were supposed to be, and said when they when we got to the destination, they were going to the same destination, they would come back. They forgot it didn't matter. We found two other young men who were very kind and took the cases down for us. But I think, don't be afraid to ask, right. I think you can ask the authorities. When we book the trains, we always tell them that we would like assistance. Please make sure, see what is available. And if there isn't available, then you find other kind travelers. And by and large, people are very kind. Yes. I don't think we've ever had anyone really refuse Refuses? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, never. Jilla Bond: I mean, we were unfailingly polite to them, and we thanked them graciously. But I think be brave and just ask total strangers to please be helpful. And in my experience, they always are. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. I mean, don't be afraid to ask. And, you know, we've traveled by train. We've traveled by air. We've traveled by on the riverboat cruises. The next year, we're planning a cruise to some very interesting places. And I'm looking forward to this because it's going to be a longer cruise, much more for you to describe for me and much more fun. Jilla Bond: I think also, I know that the interview is with me, but I would like to suggest, can you say what it is that you find helpful from traveling with me? What is it that I've got right, and what are the things I could do better? Because I think really that's more important than my observations is how has it worked for you? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It has worked fantastically well in that you are very observant. Most times I've not had to ask you for something. You said to me, would you like this? Would you like that? And you've been very observant of knowing what I like, what I don't like, what I'm not comfortable with. And I think for someone who is sight impaired, they need to reach out. It it goes both ways. It's not just about the sighted person. Assuming I have to tell you what I think, I would not, I think, but what I would like, what I wouldn't like, and honestly, I can't think of anything that you could do better. I mean, we've grown over the last four years. I, I'm just amazed amazing how well we've worked together like both when we are in London. London at your house and when we've been traveling. And I'll never forget our trip to Lourdes. When we were in the church and you said to me, I think we should go and get a blessing because everybody's at the top of the the I. And I said, sure, sure. Let's go. Got to the top of the island. The lady shooed us out of the church. She said, it's a wedding. And we laughed at it. Jilla Bond: Yeah. Once we got out of the church, we laughed because there was absolutely nothing to suggest that it was a wedding. There wasn't a bride in a bridal ground or ground gown, and there wasn't a one couple that I could see that were different from anybody else. Yeah. But you know, it was not they were not particularly welcoming, shall we say. No, no, that's for sure. But one thing that you've made me think of that I have taken on board is that a lot of travel involves being with big groups, and that is something that you're not particularly comfortable with. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No I'm not. Yeah. Jilla Bond: So we we do try to well we don't try. We make sure that we interact with small groups of people. Maybe a couple, maybe the same couple could be two people traveling together or a couple. But to keep the group small so that you can get to know the voices and get to know the people, and not just to throw you into a crowded room and wander through the crowded room thinking you can pick up on conversations. Because certainly from a sighted viewpoint, when you're doing that, you pick out people that you think you might have something in common with, and you try to talk to them. But this is this is something that I've definitely noted It and made sure that for the last 2 or 3 trips, we don't try to interact with more than a couple or at most four people. But that's even that's a stretch. And the other thing I think we do, which I think is really important, is we take a break from each other in the afternoon. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right, that's right. Jilla Bond: So it gives a little bit of time to breathe, and you can do the things that you want to do and that you customarily do at that time of day. And I go off and either have a walk or I go and take a book or lie on a sun deck, depending on where we are and what we're doing. But I think to take a break in the afternoon for two hours is because otherwise it's too intense for everybody. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you know something? I didn't have to tell you this. You just picked up on it right away. You, you know, like, you knew right away that we needed that break and the two hour, you know, I, I think it was a very, very important. And I think we've worked well together and as friends we've grown together. And I'm looking forward to next year. Jilla Bond: Well me too. I think we're going to some really interesting places, and I think I'm glad that you feel that it's it's something that's evolved. And after every trip, we we Well, I reflect on how it's gone and where we've been. And there have been I mean, there was one trip in particular which became complicated, but that wasn't our fault. It just was circumstantial. And it was just we ended up out of sync, not with each other, but in the sense of the travelling plans. And it just made it all a bit stressful and complicated. But other than that, I can't think of a real hitch. But I do think that it's really helpful to take a little bit of time apart. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you don't panic. I've never seen you panic. Never. Yeah. Jilla Bond: It takes too much energy to panic. I'm too busy trying to work out how I'm going to get out of something. Yeah, I'm fortunate, inasmuch as I've. Because I have had a very chequered life and I've travelled a lot. I guess you do get into a situation whereby you take what's coming in front of you and work your way through it. It's it's the only way to resolve things. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I've learned a lot as well, you know? Jilla Bond: Yeah. No. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go ahead. Jilla Bond: No. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go ahead. Sorry. Jilla Bond: I was just going to say I had a little bit of practice because my mother ultimately lost her sight, too. So. Jilla Bond: She she. Not to the full extent, but she had macular degeneration. So thinking about it, I guided her quite a bit and took her to the Great Wall of China. And so, yes, over the years, I think I've built a lexicon of hopefully trying to help make travels fun for people. I think that's the bottom line. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've made it lots of fun for me over the last four years. I mean, we've traveled many places. You know, we've gone to Lourdes, we've gone across Europe now. Next year we'll be doing something very interesting and exciting. And I want to thank you for this interview. I think listeners would be really intrigued and they will learn a lot from your own experience. So thank you very much. I appreciate it. Jilla Bond: It's been a total pleasure. And if I had to put it into a nutshell, I guess it's try to put yourself in the shoes of the person you're trying to help. And I think that applies in all walks of life and in all manner of trying to add a little bit of positivity in the world. But I've really enjoyed talking to you. I enjoyed traveling with you, and thank you very much. As you know, I was very doubtful that this would have enough interest for your listeners, but I very much hope it does. And look forward to seeing you in the summer. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You say hi to Doug and Ro and the little girls and Kahlua. Jilla Bond: They're coming to stay tomorrow night, so it'll be fun. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Merry Christmas to you, and we'll talk very soon. Jilla Bond: Merry Christmas, Donna. Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Take care. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #64: Interview with Alexander Barrasso, Policy Advisor https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-12-02-2025/ In this far-reaching episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes retired U.S. diplomat and six-time U.S. blind chess champion Alex Barrasso for a conversation that spans childhood, global diplomacy, disability rights, and the power of persistence. Alex traces his journey from growing up blind in a tight-knit Italian immigrant family in multicultural New York, complete with daring solo bike rides, to the moment a State Department recruiter convinced him that a life in the Foreign Service was possible. He recounts postings in countries including Colombia, Singapore, Thailand, the Czech Republic, Brunei, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE, sharing stories of advocating for guide dog access in Singapore, connecting with schools for the blind abroad, helping secure a $13.1 billion defense sale that supported tens of thousands of U.S. jobs, and negotiating the release of a detained family in a foreign language on short notice. Along the way, he and Donna compare notes on inaccessible exams, the emotional toll of being told "no," and the stubborn optimism it takes to keep pushing. The discussion also dives into the less visible side of Alex's career: attitudinal and institutional barriers within his own government, being quietly passed over for assignments, and being barred from high-profile events like aircraft carrier visits simply because of blindness. He explains how he led by listening first and speaking last, inviting honest questions about disability, and using tools like JAWS, Braille displays, embossers, and full-time human assistance to do his job at the highest levels. As chair of the State Department's Disability Action Group, he helped advance accessible housing initiatives and championed the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower program, training hundreds of staff to better support colleagues with non-apparent disabilities. Alex also shares how chess, learned at age 11 thanks to one inclusive coach, has shaped his decision-making, resilience, and sense of community, from embassy pizza-and-chess nights to mentoring blind students through the U.S. Blind Chess Association. He closes with a powerful message: don't be afraid to pursue ambitious goals, actively seek and lean on allies, take care of your physical and mental health, and be clear and assertive about the accommodations you need so that, like him and Donna, you can prove that a blind life in high-stakes leadership is not easy, but absolutely doable. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just the sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently, on June 3rd, 2022. I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday Big brothers, I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Alex Barrasso, I'd like to welcome you to my Remarkable World Commentary podcast. So, Alex, I always like to start with roots. Can you take my listeners back to your childhood in New York, growing up as the blind son of an Italian immigrant and share how that early family and cultural environment shaped the way that you see the world today. Alex Barrasso: Sure. Thank you, Donna, for giving me the opportunity to be on your podcast and for the excellent question. So my parents were immigrants from Italy, as you said, and I was born blind. And a couple of years after I was born, we moved from a small apartment into a house surrounded by neighbors. It was an incredibly multicultural street. The the neighbors to our left were from Yugoslavia. The neighbors to our right were from Ireland. The ones across the street were from Norway. It was And they were not all of them had had necessarily been the immigrants, but but their extended family was with them and it was it was just an amazing multicultural environment to grow up in. And I think that has contributed to just my, my openness as a person to people of different cultures, different backgrounds, different faiths. And in terms of my family life my mother in particular really infused me with an incredibly positive attitude. She used to tell me that I'm only limited by what my mind can, can dream of and do. And maybe that's not 100% true, but it certainly made me a very positive person. And a person who tried to live life that way. I remember when I was 6 or 7, my friends were getting bicycles for their birthday and I said, well, I want a bicycle. Of course, I didn't think about how I was going to ride this thing. I was going to learn to ride it. I just I wanted a bicycle, and I know I learned later on that my parents kind of had a conversation, well, do we get him a bicycle or not? And they eventually did. And my father would run with me and teach me how to use the training wheels. And then I graduated to two wheels, but my parents probably didn't know as much is that I would take my bike out and ride down the sidewalk by myself. Alex Barrasso: And I mean, it's probably it's a miracle that nothing really bad happened to me. Except for the one time when I was with a friend and actually tried to keep up with him And fell down, chipped the tooth, bruised all four joints and, you know, whatever. But anyway, that hopefully gives your listeners a snapshot of kind of what, what it was like to grow up for me. And I know that that last incident I just mentioned resulted in my parents not talking to each other for a week, but you know, that's that's that's kind of a little bit about what it was like. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I will tell you more offline about similarity to my dad, who taught me how to ride a bike. And I had very little vision as a child. So you have been blind since birth. Okay. Yet you chose a career that many people assume demands perfect eyesight. What drew you to the Foreign Service in the first place. And what do you remember about the moment that you decided, quote, I am going to be a diplomat. Alex Barrasso: Sure. So I was a senior in high school and I thought I wanted to study law after university. And at the time, we I was in a program called Washington Seminar on Government in Action, and we split up into groups. We researched a variety of issues and then wrote to officials in Washington involved in working those issues and asked for meetings when we traveled there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Alex Barrasso: And one of our stops was at the State Department, and we we were supposed to see someone from African Affairs and what was then Soviet affairs. But before they did that, they put a recruiter in front of us. And I just listened to him and I was just captivated. I said, wait a minute, I can learn languages, travel the world, meet people, experience cultures, represent the United States, and this can be my job. I said, where do I sign up? And from that moment, I knew that I was not going to go to law school. This is what I was going to do. And everything I did from that moment on, at least academically, was was geared towards getting myself ready for the Foreign Service exam. And I had to take it multiple times, which is not uncommon. Okay. Eventually got what is called the Thomas Pickering Fellowship, which through which the State Department covered my last year of grad school, and through which I signed up to spend at least five years in the department. I believe it was five. Maybe it was three that a minimum I had to do. I wasn't worried about the minimum because I knew I was going to do it right. And and that also gave me an internship right after grad school. And I guess I finished grad school in May of 1999, started my internship in June, came back to DC in August, and in September, I was starting entry level training with the State Department. And I didn't know it at the time, but would end up moving to Columbia for my first assignment. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Holy jeez, I'm just blown away. I think there's something else we do have in common. When we speak offline, I want it to be a foreign diplomat as well. I never got there, so. Wow. So over your 26 year career, you have served in places as varied as Colombia, Singapore, Thailand the Czech Republic, Brunei, Saudi Arabia and finally Dubai with the Iran Regional presence office. When you look back across all of these postings, what are 1 or 2 moments that best capture capture for what it meant for you to represent the United States as a blind diplomat? Alex Barrasso: So Several highlights. Specific to blindness, I think I really enjoyed, for instance, connecting with schools for the blind and blind students in Thailand and in in the Czech Republic in particular in Singapore. I remember when when we got there, my wife and I and our, my guide dog guide dogs were not allowed in. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Alex Barrasso: On transit or in public spaces. And I was very outspoken not just privately, but publicly about that. Lots of people told me it's it's not going to happen. Singapore is not ready for it. And it certainly didn't happen while I was there. But right five years after I left, I got an email from one of my former colleagues who said they changed the law. Guide dogs are allowed here. And she said to me, your impetus got people thinking. And we did it from within. We didn't. You know, we need outside pressure or want outside pressure, but we did it from within and it's real. And and you know, I certainly didn't go about it diplomatically. But but the result is there. And I talked to students in the Czech Republic about my career, my experiences, my accommodations, got them thinking about possibilities for them. And then in terms of just sort of broad career accomplishments I'll mention two. Don't. Yes. That don't have anything to do with blindness, really. But one was leading an interagency effort to finalize a $13.1 billion defense sale and, at least according to Commerce Department statistics, that supported 65,000 U.S. jobs. And then another was negotiating the release of a couple and their three minor kids, and I won't mention the country from from military custody where they had been held for a couple of days and having to do that in a foreign language, assembling a team on, on very, very short notice to go and try to make those arrangements. And we succeeded and getting that family out of custody and back into to their life. So those are just a couple of general career highlights that stand out for me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I am simply blown away here. So I know from my own life that disability often means constantly negotiating attitudes as much as physical barriers. Can you talk about some of the attitudes or institutional barriers that you encountered in inside the diplomatic world, and how you learned to navigate or push through them? Alex Barrasso: Sure. So unfortunately, I think that the greatest attitudinal barriers I faced were from my own colleagues in the US government. That's a sad statement, but I think it's true. Certainly I have my allies. And I think we'll talk about them later, but there were also I think the, the default, really, when it comes to getting assignments in our system is that my blindness is is, well, well known to to State Department officials. Yeah. And there are other blind officers in the institution as well. There have been others before us. And I think the bottom line is when we're competing for assignments, we are often passed over in that process because hiring managers will say, well, why should I hire somebody that I have to ensure has reasonable accommodations when I can hire someone who is equally capable, or maybe not, or maybe more capable and doesn't require those accommodations. So why should I hire the officer with a blindness or another disability? I certainly was was denied certain opportunities. Not just in assignments, but I couldn't go to certain events. Like, for instance there were a couple of fly outs to aircraft carriers, including one when I was head of mission in Brunei. Alex Barrasso: And the Defense Department would not let me go. Out there had the same thing happened in Saudi Arabia. So, so these are just things that happen, and you have to deal with them and push through. I mean, in Brunei, for me, the most important aspect of that was that that the bruneians get to go. So I could have presumably just cancelled the whole thing because I couldn't go, but that that wasn't that wasn't the right thing to do in my estimation. It was important for the bruneians to go and and then we ended up working with them to purchase some some Sikorsky helicopters. And that was not a deal on the same magnitude as the missile defense deal. But it also, it supported over a thousand US jobs. And I'm sure that the the experience on the aircraft carrier had a role to play in that. But you have to just push through these things you know, disappointments and rejections are a part of life, and perhaps more so for those of us with disabilities. And we just but we just have to learn to move on and and move forward. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You eventually rose rose to senior leadership roles, including Deputy chief of mission in and oh, I don't know how to pronounce this UN chargé d'affaires in Brunei. How did you approach leadership as a blind officer, and what did you do deliberately to show colleagues and host country officials that disability and authority not only can but do belong together? Alex Barrasso: Sure. So like all leaders, I have made my mistakes. I certainly I recognize that I think most importantly in terms of leadership is is being inclusive, listening to everybody around you because everybody has a different set of not just cultural and ethnic backgrounds and linguistic backgrounds, but everybody has a variety of career experiences. And I remember specifically in, in Saudi Arabia managing that program on critical infrastructure protection and public security. I remember going into meetings thinking, okay, I know how we're going to resolve this problem. I know what the solution is. I know how we're going to move this program forward. And I would listen to everybody around me and I would be the last to speak. And on on several occasions, my team convinced me to adopt a different course of action than the one I had in mind. And I would eventually tell them. I would tell them. Okay. This is. This is what I had planned. But no, you've convinced me otherwise. So here's what we're going to do it your way. And in all of those cases, listening to them was the right thing to do. So I think listening first, speaking later, being inclusive asking people who don't necessarily volunteer, volunteer their views to, to provide them. Right. Those those are some real keys, I think, to just general interpersonal leadership. In terms of my blindness, I have told all of my employees I'm an open book. You've probably never worked with a blind person before. Ask me whatever you want. No question is dumb. I'm not going to chastise anybody for a question they ask. My mother told me that someone asked me in school, how do you eat? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I've had that one. Alex Barrasso: With a fork. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Very good. Yeah. Alex Barrasso: You know and I think that that creates just that openness creates trust. It even led one of my subordinates to come to me and say, you know what? My brother just had a he and his wife just had a baby. Born with your same condition. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Alex Barrasso: How how do they get started? What do they do? And I directed her to you know, to resources like the lighthouse, the commissions for the blind. But most importantly, I think I said. I said to her, I said, this is going to be okay. Life isn't over. You know, look at me. I'm here. You just have to instill positivity and give give him the tools that he needs to succeed. There's early child development programs. Et cetera. Et cetera. So hopefully that gets at what you were looking for in the question. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. You know, I had someone ask me the same thing. How do you eat? But I, I was more I probably was shyer than you are. I didn't say I eat with a fork. I just sat there and said, well, I eat the same way that you do, you know? But yeah. Alex Barrasso: That's a perfectly fine answer. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, well, I like yours. Now, as a blind host myself, I am particularly interested in the nuts and bolts. What kinds of accommodations or technologies have been most essential for you to do your job as a document and as a program director, where do you still find gaps that needed advocacy? Your creative problem solving? Alex Barrasso: Sure. So there are just several pieces to the accommodations package. Starting starting really at the house just making sure that the appliances are marked and that I can use them, whether it's the microwave or the dishwasher or the dryer, the washer in fact in in Dubai, I even asked my reader assistant to mark the exercise bikes at the gym because self-care is is so important, and and so is exercise, And that was that was really important is really important to me as a person. And so I wanted to make sure that, that I could go to the gym whenever the gym was open, it was right next to my house. I had no excuses and, and and just get on the bike and and do some cardio. So I had her mark, the the bikes, the start button and whatnot. And then in the office. So what I had was jaws. I'm sure most of your listeners are familiar, but for those who are not, you know, a screen reading software for the computer, I had that on all of our computer systems. I had a Braille printer. I also had a note taker. I've gone through several different ones. My my favorite was was the Vario. Varrio, but I. The last one I had was a focus 14. As I said, a Braille embosser and I had a full time reader. Assistant. Also I think in you know, in the State Department in particular, with the number of outside meetings and events, it was really critical to have human assistance for a lot of that. You know, I remember, for instance, in Brunei after events, we would go into the VIP room and all the ministers were there and the military brass were there. Alex Barrasso: And I would literally work with my reader during the day and say, okay, here are the here are the three issues that I want to make some progress on tonight. And here are the people we need to find. And it was it was literally like target practice. You walk into the VIP room, The door closes behind you and you know the readers scanning the room. Well, I see this. This one, this one and that one. Okay. Let's go. You know, and we would resolve people think that those events are just for enjoyment. And some people think that diplomats just drink coffee and alcohol and well, there is coffee and sometimes there's alcohol, but you actually get things done. I remember in, in one event we were having issues with a particular agreement and my reader spotted the foreign, my Foreign ministry counterpart. I walked up to her, talked to her about it. She said, you know, this is really a ministry of communications issue, she said, but my counterpart from that ministry is at my table. Let me talk to him. And 15 minutes later, what we had not been able to resolve with exchanges of emails and paper in three weeks was done. So and the human assistance was just critical to doing that because I would have never found her on my own and never had that conversation. And who knows how much longer it would have taken. So, so that's that that's the the suite of accommodations on the job for the foreign Service exam. What I got was double time and the exam in Braille. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, great. Alex Barrasso: I think these days I believe it's all computer based. And so I, I mean, I don't know that Braille would would really come into play presumably. And of course, I haven't. It's been years since I took it, but presumably one would use jaws or any other screen reader of choice to process the entrance exam, assuming that it's accessible. So. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess a lot of exams are now going more online as well, right? Like, yeah. Alex Barrasso: There are I mean, even my, our daughter's you know, they're taking exams online. They're, they're getting put into browsers that lock down the rest of the computer. So they can't use AI or look at their notes, and they're just in those screens that, that don't allow other programs to run, and they're taking their exams. I wonder if those things work with screen readers. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I recently ran into great difficulty taking a cybersecurity exam through Pearson Vue, and I will tell you that my reader could not interpret the diagrams or the images. And so I had to forego the exam. I couldn't take it. Alex Barrasso: Wow. I'm sorry. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. And right now, I'm really fighting hard to get Pierson to understand what's going on and comp Tia, who is the creator of this exam, to make their exams more user friendly and accessible to persons with who are blind and sighted. So yeah. Alex Barrasso: No, that's right. That's what has to happen. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So as chair of the State Department's Disability Action Group, you helped transform an employee network into a serious force for change. What were your priorities when you took on that role, and what are you proudest of achieving and your colleagues with disabilities? Alex Barrasso: So I would say it, It had already been a force for change. There's lots of things that we can point to in terms of accomplishments. For instance even prior to to me taking over as chair, you know, for instance getting funding for the State Department to have an accessible Ada compliant residence in its housing pool at every post. That was a huge success. I mean, not not just getting the commitment to it, but we actually got the funding for it. Problem? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alex Barrasso: And that was not done by me. That was that was my predecessors working really hard and tooth and nail and grinding it out and, and with, you know, with colleagues in the relevant offices who, who believed in it and wanted, wanted it to happen and want it to be helpful. I think for me I had a couple of priorities I wanted. First and foremost, you know, it's a large organization, hundreds of members, and not everybody has the same needs or the same interests. Some folks are interested in getting reciprocity, reciprocal recognition for their handicapped car tags from other states for, for State Department parking. And that's incredibly important to them. Others of us were more interested in working on the the promotion process, And could we for instance, could we stop the State Department from counting in the promotion statistics, people who had temporary disabilities. So someone breaks a leg and needs temporary accommodations, and they're counted as disabled if they get promoted. Well, it's not really accurate. But really just trying to serve the whole membership. And I think what I'm most proud of is we were able to launch the hidden disabilities sunflower right across the the State Department headquarters building. Right. And, you know, for those listeners that aren't familiar with it, it's it's basically a a training. Go ahead. Sorry, I've got a I'm hearing a lot of echo. Alex Barrasso: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's a training program on how to assist individuals with non-apparent disabilities. The training is done by videos, and then you go ahead. Either that you are a person with a non-apparent disability by wearing a yellow lanyard, or you wear a white supporting lanyard, which demonstrates that you are willing to assist individuals with non-apparent disabilities. And we trained over 600 people just in the launch. And then, you know, over the next several months trained a total of over 1500 employees, and I heard a number of stories from colleagues about how they would they would see someone with the white lanyard, and they gave them the confidence to go up to them and say, hey, I actually need some assistance. And they got the assistance they needed and really proud of that. And I think also of the work that the organization did to help employees with their reasonable accommodations processes. It's a difficult process to go through. Yeah. And at different points the process can break down. And you have to understand that not everybody's experience is the same. Not everybody's needs are the same. And just trying to help employees kind of navigate that process and giving them ideas on on what they can. You know what some options are for accommodations. Screen Reader: She said. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My clock is starting to wind down. But, you know, here comes a very important question for you. I want to talk about the intersection of your diplomatic life and your chess life. You are a six time US blind chess champion, and you represented the United States at the World Blind Championships. Wow. How did chess first enter your life and what kept you committed to it, even while juggling a demanding career and a family? Alex Barrasso: So it started for me when I was 11 or 12. Oh my God, I was at a friend's birthday party. We were outside tossing some basketballs around, and all of a sudden everyone just decided they were going in to play chess. And I had no idea what this game was. I had no idea whatsoever. Chris's father realizing that I was lost, took out a board, took me aside from the rest of the group, and let me feel the pieces. Explain that there were two colors. Explain the way the board is set up. We put the pieces on. He walked me through a mock game, and then he contacted the coach at my middle school and said, look, Alex is interested. Would you be able to find a way to get him an adaptive set and to have him participate in the club, not compete on the team, but in the club? And that coach. Alex? I don't know. I have no idea where he is if he's still around. Hopefully he is. But he did that. He found a place for me to get an adapted set and let me join the club and you know, treated me like any other player. And then I ended up transferring after that year to a school with a nationally recognized program you know, just, just just kept at it. I really enjoyed it. I enjoy the challenge. It's it's almost like solving a puzzle. Yeah. And I have, you know, I've haven't always been able to spend as much time as I want on it, but if I've. If I have free time, that's where I want to spend it. Yes. And and you know, I've been able to play not necessarily competitively, but I've been able to play in every country that have been. Had some some great sparring partners that I learned a lot from. Even even when getting beat. Alex Barrasso: And it's just I don't know, I my wife Brenda sometimes says to me, you work so hard, you really want to spend your weekend? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yeah. Alex Barrasso: Squeezing more out of your brain. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alex Barrasso: And I do, I do. I really, really enjoy it. It's It's a lot. There's there's a lot to learn from it. Discipline, concentration. Yes. So many things. I think we're going to talk about that, but. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wish myself that I could spend more time playing chess. And I know I keep promising myself I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. So maybe I will be inspired by what you're saying here and get going on it, you know. So yeah, it's I'm sorry. Alex Barrasso: Go ahead. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go ahead. Alex Barrasso: No, it's it's just it's just a fantastic game. And it really is accessible to everybody. And there are so many adaptive sets out there. There are organizations and lots of countries. We've got the US Blind Chess Association in the US. I know there's some similar entity in Canada. You've got the UK BCA as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Alex Barrasso: And you know, here in the US, we're some of the things that the USBC is doing is trying to get younger players involved. So we're we have a program right now where we're teaching students at the Saint Joseph School for the blind. We're teaching them virtually. We've provided them with some sets. Oh, nice. So it's just it's great to be able to to get other people interested and hopefully they will get as much from it as as as I have. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good. I want to squeeze in this question. Many of us who are blind or visually impaired discover that certain activities give us confidence and community. What has chess given you emotionally and socially, and how has it influenced the way you think and make decisions as a diplomat and as a leader? Alex Barrasso: I think one of the keys influences is is on decision making. I mean, whether it's a chess game or professional issue, you know, we can always spend more time making decisions. It doesn't necessarily mean we're going to make a different decision, or maybe not even a better decision. And so at a certain point, you know, you have to be comfortable with ambiguity, right. Because you're never going to almost never going to have all the information you want. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: To know. Alex Barrasso: Before making a decision. And, and I think as a result of playing chess, I've probably gotten more comfortable with that ambiguity professionally. You just have to make a decision. And, you know, I heard a couple of mentors say, well, don't don't open an email twice. You know, don't spend more, more than this amount of time on this. And I think Yeah, I mean, you just you have to get comfortable with with making decisions when you don't have all the information you want. So that's, that's in terms of contribution to my professional life, I think that's that's the big one. Socially, in terms of community. It's a great conversation starter. You know, we we got in Saudi Arabia, we had pizza nights at the embassy once a week, and we managed to tie chess and pizza night together. And we had you know, we had kids coming in just to, just to play. And maybe they wouldn't sit for more than ten minutes at a time, but they they'd come back in and continue those games. And, you know, we, we got a few sets that we left with the employee association. You know, and I've just I've had a chance to play, as I said, in every country that I've been. And it's you know, it's a great way to meet people. Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Alex Barrasso: And just just connect over something that's not professional. I mean and in terms of emotions, I think my mom tells me I used to get very upset about losses, and I would sulk, and I would let the, you know, the loss be a factor in how I played my next game. I don't think I do that quite as much now. You learn to control it. You learn to move on, learn from the mistake, and hopefully don't make the same mistake again. So yeah, I think I think those are a couple of the highlights. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, the clock is telling me that we don't have much time. But, Alex, give us some final words of wisdom before we close our podcast. What can you tell our listeners? What message of inspiration or motivation do you have? Is it reach for the sky? Don't be afraid. Go out there. Tell us what your personal messages. Alex Barrasso: I would say do not be afraid. Pursue your your ambitions. Make sure that you find the allies. Because let me tell you, there are going to be plenty of detractors out there. The allies are also out there, but you've got to find them. They don't necessarily find you. Right. So find them and lean on them and tell them what you need and tell them why you need it. And those who really want to help will listen to that and will act on it. And I would also say take care of yourself physically. Mentally, I'm not doing as much of that as I should right now. But it's incredibly important. Just just find something that you like to do, whether it's swimming, bike riding, going to the gym, whatever. Find that something and do it regularly. Keep yourself in shape. And and just just be vocal, as assertive without being demanding about what it is. You need to succeed in whatever role you're in, whether it's high school, whether it's college, whether it's professional. Otherwise, just speak up. And the and the allies who who want you to succeed will will respond to that. And and in a positive way. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Alex, I'd like to thank you so much for this interview. I've learned so much about the diplomatic service. I've learned, you know, I think I'm not alone in saying that, you know, we travel the same road. And for a blind or sight impaired person, it's it's not easy, but it's doable. So thank you so much for this interview. Alex Barrasso: Donna, thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity. And I hope this was useful for your listeners and look forward to connecting offline. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it will be useful, inspirational, motivational. And we will connect offline. And I want to thank you again, Alex. Thank you very, very much. Alex Barrasso: Thank you. Take care. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Take care now. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #69: Looking Back and Looking Forward | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-12-02-2025/ In this reflective episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan takes a "look back and look ahead," revisiting the personal and professional highs and lows of 2025 while calling out ongoing systemic barriers facing people with disabilities. She flags, in particular, the absence of a dedicated Canadian minister for disability issues and criticizes government "workarounds" that lean on surveys and unpaid participation, expecting people with disabilities to donate their lived experience, knowledge, and expertise rather than be properly compensated. Donna then turns to what she wants 2026 to bring: stronger accessibility and usability, especially in an app-driven world, along with deeper public understanding of what accessibility really means. She also shares a proud year-end roundup of the many interviews she's conducted and her goal to promote the podcast more widely, before spotlighting her "Transitioning to a New World" initiative to support kids and young adults preparing to leave high school, including weekend camps focused on confidence, independence, trust, and respect, closing with warm wishes for the end of 2025 and a better 2026. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles. She just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello there. I'm Donna Jodhan, your host for the Remarkable World Commentary. It's my second podcast for December, and today I'm in a mood to look back and look ahead. My dad always used to say that it is better to just look ahead, but sometimes I cannot help but look back. And what has happened for this year? So many things have happened for me personally and professionally. And as I sit here reflecting and, you know, just thinking about things, we still don't have a minister designated for issues on disability here in Canada. Not sure why. I guess Prime Minister Carney has a lot on his mind with the tariff wars continuing with the United States, with all kinds of things hemming him in re the economy, the climate, the tariffs, everything else. So it's no wonder that somehow he has forgotten to designate a dedicated minister for disability issues. But you know what? Government departments are still using workarounds or I call it workarounds. All right. To take advantage of lived experiences of persons with lived experiences, knowledges, knowledge and skills and expertise to get the information that they seek and you know it's not right. And what I mean by this is that they're not paying for lived experiences. They're not paying for expertise. They're not paying for knowledge or skills. They're using workarounds. Workarounds like surveys work around like asking for people to participate in research projects. And they're not unabashedly unashamed to do this. They're not wanting or they're not in a mood, or they're not in any way ready or willing to pay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Persons with disabilities for their lived experiences, their knowledge, their expertise and their skills. And sometimes, or more often than not, they have the nerve to say, well, you know, it's your obligation to do this because you're helping your community. And I say to this. When I say to my fellow community members, don't pay any attention to this so-called excuse or reason. Stick up for your rights and make sure that you are paid for your expertise, your knowledge, your skills, and your life experience. Okay. Another thing I find is that apps need to be made more accessible and usable. We've come a very, very long way. But in the world of apps where everybody and everyone, companies, entities, everybody is using apps, apps, apps, apps to process things, to gather information, everything like that. It still needs to be made more accessible and usable, and it is my hope for 2026 that we can continue to work with developers and designers to make this possible. Okay, so looking forward to 2026. I hope and pray for greater accessibility and usability, more understanding, more awareness of the true meaning of accessibility and usability. And despite the fact there has been a great, great damage done to disability equity and inclusive inclusiveness, do we still can hope that accessibility and usability remains at the forefront? I want to promote my podcasts more widely. I've had a great year thus far. I've done several interviews with oh my gosh, a plethora of different interviewees, ranging from the CNIB to Air Canada to Inner Search to Doctor Allen Chase of the Eye Retreat organization. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Elections Canada Louise Gillis of ex president of the ECB. Rob Lattanzio of arch doctor Leo Bissonnette, my dear friend Larry Lewis, my other dear friend, and so many more. David Baker, the Charter Challenge champion lawyer Diane Bergeron, Alan Moore, so many to name Ian White, Robin East, my dear friend Abby Baker, okay. And many more to come. Abby belongs to the chess British Chess Association, our blind Chess Association. And then I have Alex Barrasso of the United States Blind Chess Association. I've interviewed all of these wonderful, wonderful people and more. Oh, and there's Kathy Saliba of the Greater Toronto Airport Authority and Cathy Nyfors of the Vancouver Airport Authority, Sonia Ganga Papalia of the Canadian Transportation Agency. Thank you, everyone, and thank you to my dear friend Erin, for walking the walk with me and helping me to make these interviews possible. So I'd like to promote my podcast more widely, and the same for my transitioning to a New World initiative, where I am going to be working with kids and young adults, kids preparing to leave high school. I want to help them transition to a new world. I want to produce weekend camps where I get them to start believing in themselves, to build their confidence, their independence, and show them how to obtain trust and respect. These are my wishes and hopes for 2026, and I wish all of my listeners a happy end of year 2025 and a wonderful 2026. See you in 2026. Bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #68: Remembering John Panarese | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-12-01-2025/ In this heartfelt episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan pauses to honour the memory of her dear friend, mentor, and "Coach," John Panarese, reflecting on the fact that a year has passed since his death. She recalls how, in mid-2024, they began shaping a coaching initiative focused on helping others learn their iDevices, with John creating a strong template and a vision for bringing instructors and students together, even as he quietly battled cancer and insisted he would beat it. Donna then shares the heartbreak of John's message withdrawing from the project after being told he had little time left, and how he made her promise to carry the work forward. She updates listeners on continuing the initiative in his name through the Vision Tech Academy, working with Craig Cohen (John's former Apple associate) and Ben Levy, and thanking Aaron Di Blasi and Leo Bissonette for their support. The episode closes with Donna's gratitude for John's warmth and generosity, and a vow from the bottom of her heart that the project will never die, as she says goodbye "until we meet again." TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles. She just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everybody. And I'm Donna J. Jodhan, your host for the December 2025 Remarkable World commentary, where I have the opportunity to really sit here and tell you what's on my mind. And for this episode of Remarkable World Commentary, I'd like to take a few minutes to remember my dear friend, my mentor, my associate, my coach. I used to call him Coach John Panarese. I can't believe that it is a year ago since our John passed on and he went so quickly and he went in style. But this is what I would say. I remember so well last year when John and I had gotten together to start a project which we would designate as transitioning to a new world where we would be engaged in coaching others as to how to use their I devices. And John developed a marvelous template for me to follow. I think it was in June or July. John came up with this idea. June of 20, 24, or maybe July. It wasn't necessarily just transitioning to a new world. It was all about bringing instructors and students together, and we came up with ideas as to how to do it. John was so full of life, but I knew then that John was seriously ill, battling cancer. John never complained, but he kept telling me that he would beat it. And you know what? I believed it, I believed that John would beat it. But a few months later, when he wrote to me saying, Donna, I have to withdraw from our project because the doctor has not given me much time to live. It struck me like an arrow to my heart. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I couldn't believe it. Reading this, I tried to call and I tried to talk with him, but John was too far gone by then. John was on his way to heaven. John was leaving us, and I knew then that I had to pick up the mantle that John had. You know, I'm not sure what word to use, but John had specified for me, and he made me promise him that I would continue with this project. And although that it is a bit slow. We're getting there. I have contacted Craig Cohen, John's former associate with Apple, and Craig has also brought in Ben Levy and we will continue this project in John's name. The Vision Tech Academy, and I want to thank my friend Aaron Di Blasi for having helped to develop this wonderful, wonderful website and my other associate, Leo Bissonette, for agreeing to work with us on it. John was a giant and so much more. A year has gone by and what have I done to honor your memory? As I said, I have set up the Vision Tech Academy in your name. I'm working now with Craig Cohen and Ben Levy to honor your wishes, but you will always be missed. My dear John, my coach, my mentor. Your unique voice, filled with warm and warmth and overflowing with generosity. Thank you, John, for all you've done for me. And I promise you from the bottom of my heart, I will make sure that this project never dies. Take care, John, and save a place for me at your table. Until we meet again. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #63: Interview with Christopher Sutton, Accessibility Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-11-26-2025/ In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Accessibility Commissioner Christopher Sutton to explore how his lived experience of deafness, foster care, isolation, and later receiving a cochlear implant has shaped his leadership and passion for system-wide change. He reflects on being told "no" throughout his childhood and how supportive parents, mentors, and his own determination pushed him to become a TV anchor, an entrepreneur, and a policy leader who now works to ensure that "other little Christophers and Donnas" grow up with fewer barriers and more role models. Drawing on his education at Gallaudet and the Ivey Business School, he explains how combining governance training, public policy expertise, and lived experience enables him to bridge communities, convene tough conversations, and embed human-centred accessibility into real-world decision-making. Donna and Christopher also delve into his time leading Wavefront Centre through the early days of the pandemic, keeping essential interpreting, audiology, and deafblind services running while pushing governments and broadcasters to make public health information accessible with sign language, captions, and clear communication. He describes the Wavefront headquarters' Rick Hansen Foundation gold-certified design, where acoustics, lighting, wayfinding, hearing loops, and "deaf-friendly" open sightlines were co-created with people who have lived experience, an example he believes large federal entities can and must emulate. From unpacking the proactive, enforcement-focused mandate of the Accessibility Commissioner within the Canadian Human Rights Commission to his work on British Columbia's accessible service delivery standard and his advice to younger generations on self-advocacy, confidence, and getting involved, the conversation underscores that accessibility is not a "nice to have" but a shared responsibility and a fundamental condition for a barrier-free future. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a changemaker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Christopher Sutton, I'd like to welcome you to my Remarkable World Commentary. Welcome. Christopher Sutton: Thank you. Donna, it's such a pleasure to be here. And thank you for your your invitation today. And really, it was such a pleasure to hear about your background and your experience because you have done such remarkable things for Canadians across the country. And I want to thank you for that. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. Now we met. When did we meet? We met in 2024, I believe, at the Air Canada Advisory Committee meeting in Toronto. I believe we did. Christopher Sutton: Donna, I think we were late before that. I think we met each other at circles in in Gatineau, Quebec, working on Elections Canada stuff. But we have reconnected. Yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I do apologize. We did meet through Elections Canada. That's right, I apologize. I'm sorry. Christopher Sutton: So no need to apologize. Donna, you meet with so many people each day. But I remember working together with you at Elections Canada and some really great stuff. And just hearing about the insights and the and the perspective that you brought to the table and, and the community that you brought to the table. So really been able to follow and work with you over the years and know that we're making a difference in our respective places in the world. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I do remember and I enjoyed working with you then, and I was kind of sorry to see you leave the Air Canada Committee, but you got bigger things to do now. And we're looking forward to having you you know, continue to make a difference. So let's get started. And to begin, which experiences from growing up with hearing loss and receiving a cochlear implant in 2008, most shaped your leadership style and how do they guide your decision as accessibility commissioner today? Christopher Sutton: Well, thank you for that question, Donna. And I, I think there are many things that I could talk about here as an individual. I grew up in a very small and isolated community, and when people meet me, they're often surprised learning about my story. Like all of our stories, we're we have very unique journeys. And those journeys helped shape us to who we are today. I was a born and put in foster care. I was in foster care for many years before I was adopted. I don't have much memory of that point, and I don't actually have a lot of memory until I was a little bit older of a child. But I will talk about how, as a child, remembering there was no one else like me, that I was alone. I didn't see other people with hearing aids or or that had support. I grew up in a very, very small, isolated community, but at the same time, I remember that being in an isolated community, I was afforded a lot of privilege as well. I had a great support. My, my my parents, especially my mother, really, really encouraged me to be the full individual that I was meant to be. When people talked about, oh, that's a barrier, Christopher can't do that because Christopher's deaf or or or people struggle to understand who I was. My parents always instilled that you will do whatever you want to do and even higher. So when I was young, I wanted to be an anchor on TV, and I remember marching up to the to the, to the community channel newsroom, and they had a call up for anchors and people to volunteer on the community channel, and I love. Christopher Sutton: I'm fascinated by current events. I love news, I love media, and really having the opportunity to be a part of that was so exciting. But I remember my mom telling me that her friend who ran the community channel called her and said, Christopher can't do this. He stopped. He was able to read the news. He won't be able to hear an interview story. He won't be able to do all this stuff. Maybe we can have him, like, work in the background and help with editing and stuff like that. And my mom said, but you know, Christopher, you know that he wants to be in front of the camera. He's going to be in front of the camera. And soon enough, Donna, I was in front of the camera, not one night a week, but three nights a week. But you know something, Donna? That wasn't the only circumstance where I had to break down barriers to show that people with a disability can do whatever they do. In my circumstance, the only thing I couldn't do was here was often being told I had labels, and because of those labels, I had to fit it to a category. I was deaf, so I wasn't going to be able to read. Christopher Sutton: I wasn't going to graduate from high school or even junior high school. The occupations that were set out for me were these occupations and I was fired. I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to own a hotel to I wanted to be a chef. I wanted to all these other things. And people kept saying, no, no, no, no. But each time a no came, I crossed that bridge and sometimes crossed it a little bit further. And I have to say, the nose and the you can't, you can't give me the strength and the courage and and all those people that supported me to really get to where I am today. So I have to say, what really inspires me is Wanting to be able to make sure that the other little Christopher's, the other little Donna's, the other little Michael's and Jane's and Paul's don't grow up with the same barriers, don't grow up not having having role models and and people they can look up to, and people that have paved the way so that they can have a better, better life. I really want to people and people with disabilities, especially to feel connected, to see themselves as part of the change. And I really, really, really want to make sure people are not isolated and alone. And that really has been a driving force, force behind the work that I do and my passions that that get me up each day. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this is great. You know, I, I couldn't agree more. I really couldn't. So you earned a BA from. And I hope I'm having this pronounced correctly. Gallaudet. That. Christopher Sutton: Gallaudet. Gallaudet depends from. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. And an MBA from Ivy along with governance training. How did that mix of education prepare you for policy oversight and enforcement at the Canadian Human Rights Commission? Christopher Sutton: Yeah, that's a really another great question, Donna. And I think as I just shared with you, I've always been very headstrong and I had real ambition and goals. And as I said, I'm very lucky that my parents raised me to believe that barriers could be overcome and that anything is possible if I work hard and I apply myself and I and I am a believer and firm believer. Continuous ongoing education I currently just finished up some some training on mediation and other things because I believe that we can never stop learning, and learning is as a responsibility we have to ourselves. So whether it was my dream of being a news anchor or or just being a journalist, making a difference in people's lives was something that I really wanted to do and something that drives me each day. I've been very fortunate. I know as a person with a disability, and to be able to have the career that I have today. I know that so many of my friends and colleagues have not had the same benefits. They've not been able to get the same educational experience or, or, or educational opportunities. And I've been very privileged and I and I think those, those role models, I think those those sponsors and so many people that put faith in me and encourage me because that encouragement is what led me to be here. But right now, in this role, one of the things I'd like most is to be a bridge for people, bringing people together to figure out how we can achieve a more accessible Canada together. Christopher Sutton: Donna, you know, from our work together, I love to have dialogues. I love to bring organizations together, bring people together. I like to look at the big picture. I like to say, okay, this is the barriers we're facing today, but how can we break down those barriers? How can we tap into the different challenges, different expertise and experience of individuals? I'm very passionate about public policy. Very passionate about system designs and organization and management. But I'm also very passionate about the lived experiences and and the different barriers that we face each day and how we can come together to really put a human element and a human centric side of it to really make people's lives better. So I'd like to say, like, I went to Ivy Business School, one of the best business schools in the world. I've done some fantastic governance programs and, you know. Very, very few people at my time in those programs identified with any of the diversity that I talk about in myself, like coming from a small, isolated community working in a not for profit sector being an individual with, with a disability. And in these organizations and these programs, I went these are full of executives from the large banking sectors, from from media, from, from many different organizations. Christopher Sutton: And often I was the first person they met in a leadership role that understood the language they spoke, but also had a disability. So I often was able to talk about how diversity, inclusion and accessibility should be and must be understood in the broader business and policy context. And I think my, my colleagues in those programs really appreciate that. They really appreciated that. They got to know an individual. They got to know firsthand about the barriers that I experience and how we how we work together to overcome some of those barriers. And I made some awesome friendships, and I and I know that I've really been able to help influence how people see people with disabilities. But also at the same time, I've also led organizations and businesses myself, and I understand firsthand the realities and pressures that come with running a business, managing people, and implementing compliance. And that experience really has helped me translate policy goals into practical, workable approaches. And the realities that that organizations must deal with when we're looking at the Accessible Canada Act or other regulations out there. So I think I've been very fortunate to be able to have this academic training, this global exposure and real world leadership experience has given me a unique perspective. How I can help move this file at the Human Rights Commission and my work as a commissioner at the Commission. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this is terrific, really. Now, you took the helm at Wavefront Center on April 1st, 2020, right as the pandemic began. What did that chapter teach you about resilience, accessible communication and service continuity that you are applying at the core? Christopher Sutton: So, Donna, it feels like hundreds to hundreds of years ago. But you remember just six years ago, five, six years ago, we were hearing about this coronavirus. We were hearing about about this disease or illness that was going around and people were getting sick. And it's hard to believe it's only been five years, and we've gone through a profound, profound amount of global changes since. But a lot of people don't realize on the day the global shutdowns happened, I actually was moving from Ottawa to Vancouver to start a new role. I actually was supposed to start the role a little bit later, but because of the shutdowns, the board of directors said, we really need someone to come in with the leadership, with the ability to handle these complex situations, to help guide us and our business through this time. So I just moved across the country, joined a completely new organization, knowing no one in this city and suddenly finding myself navigating a landscape where conditions change daily and sometimes by the hour. Leading to that amount of uncertainty taught me what real resilience looks like. Staying focused on people making decisions quickly yet compassionately, and creating stability in an environment where, frankly, there was no stability. Waypoint center was named an essential service by the Government of British Columbia. It provided essential services like sign language interpreting, audiology, employment services, deafblind intervener services. There are so many programs and services, and one of the other things that provided was connectivity. It brought connectivity to a community that was already isolated, that already faced so many barriers and really had to bring the human element to the front and center. Christopher Sutton: Not only were we dealing with uncertainties in the world. The team that I had to leave were coming in and supporting people that depended on us for communication access, health services and community connection. And I had to lead through constant change while ensuring the staff supported safe and valued, but also ensuring that the services to clients relied on each and every day. As a situation, change was there for them that when they needed an interpreter, there was an interpreter at that medical appointment, when they needed to excuse me, when they needed an audiologist to fix their hearing aid, or for some people, because they needed to attend a funeral of a loved one that passed away from from Covid 19, we were there for them. But also at the same time, accessible communication became a defining lesson in those early days. Public health information was not accessible. It was not accessible in sign language. Captioning was very poor and and so many communities missed out on life altering and life saving information that was being provided. We had to change that. And I and I was so fortunate. I reached out to contacts, whether they were in the Prime Minister's office or broadcasters, and really brought forward educating governments, media and other organizations about the importance of accessible communication. And that really has changed. What we see now is more global, widespread acceptance of ASL interpretation or lsq interpretation and other accessibility features that we see. Screen Reader: Notification from. Christopher Sutton: During during emergencies and other times. But if you go to other places in the world, you actually see these for cooking shows and whatnot. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. Christopher Sutton: But we also had to build new partnerships. So we had to look at the programs and services that we traditionally delivered, and we had to offer new ones. The community and the world we lived in was changing, and it was so important that we designed our program so that our community was connected, so that businesses were able to provide accessible information so that government had a service provider to turn to. So it really why it was. A very difficult point for us. It also allowed the organization to become much more stronger and sustainable and create a national name for itself. So I take all these lessons each and every day in my work at the HRC. They shape how I approach policy oversight, accessibility with a deep understanding of what communities need in real time, how essential clear communication is, and how important it is to lead with both humility and decisiveness. Suppress. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear it in your voice. The passion. You know we need. We need this type of passion, this type of leadership. If we and I say we, I mean, our communities are, you know, expected to move forward because these are difficult times and the landscape is changing dramatically every single day. Christopher Sutton: It is, it is. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So wave of friends headquarters achieved Rick Hansen Foundation accessibility certified goal within 96 out of 100. Which design choices made the biggest difference? And how should large federal entities translate this lesson into their own buildings? Christopher Sutton: Yeah, I am very proud of the work that and that we've done. And I actually have to say like when I, when I was being headhunted and recruited to take on the role of CEO at Wavefront Centre, it was moving to, like I said, an area that I never set foot in. Like I've been to Vancouver maybe twice in my life, and I've always called myself an East Coast type of person. You know, I like the the faster pace of life in the East Coast. My friends were here, my family were here. But I was inspired by the bold action that the board of directors and the staff and the community wanted to make, like Waypoint Center's head office was very carefully and intentionally designed to ensure that it was the highest rating accessible building in North America. They didn't set out on the goal that, oh, we want to get this rating. We set on the goal of saying, this is what our communities need. Our communities need this so that they can be in a fully inclusive environment where it doesn't matter if you're you're a person with a disability, if you're someone that's aging, whether you're a person with vision loss or hearing loss or deafness, whether you're someone that that is short, whether you're a child. They want the organization and its purpose built facility to be completely barrier free and to be a model. Frankly, I, I've gone to so many presentations over the years where I would meet with architects, would meet with designers, meet with banks, meet with other organizations, and say. Christopher Sutton: If Wavefront Center could do this, a small, little, tiny, not for profit organization regionally and in Vancouver, and they were able to make the investments to include the community, to look at design practices to look at best practice from the CSA, from the building code, from. From what we've saw in other jurisdictions like at Gallaudet and took those standards and elevated them even higher. If we can do it, anyone should be able to do it. There is no excuse that a regulated entity that has millions and billions of dollars of profit cannot do the same. There's no excuse whatsoever. They also have to say the success of the project came from involving people with lived experience directly in the design process, in the build process, in every decision around acoustics, lighting, wayfinding, everything was shaped by the real needs of individuals and not by the assumptions and not necessarily by the professionals and and individuals who would say, well, this is what this group needs, but was actually connecting with people with lived experience to understand those experiences firsthand. Obviously, Waypoint Center serves people that are deaf, blind, and hard of hearing. So acoustics became a major role. We wanted to make sure for individuals that were deaf, there was a lot of ability to be able to communicate with using sign language. So a lot of glass, a lot of open spaces, spaces that were called deaf friendly, where you can move freely and not have to worry about hitting someone. Christopher Sutton: We also want to make sure that people that use hearing aid and other technologies, that oral cast and and loops and, and systems built in place. So no matter where you were, you were able to listen without barriers. We also have the HVAC system in the building, what normally is around 75 to 80dB in most office settings, reduced to 35 to 40dB, which means a person that was hearing that does not have a hearing loss could actually be more comfortable in the environment. But someone like myself that uses technology didn't have the interference of the background noise constantly. Donna, I can go on and on and on about this. And if any of your viewers are in Vancouver, I. I highly encourage you to reach out to a front center. They would be happy to give you a tour of their presentations. If you go to their website, they have diagrams. So there's so much, so much effort and pride put into that organization. But some of the key lessons, because you ask about key lessons that I would provide large federal entities, is that accessibility must be integrated from the onset, every stage, from early planning stages, right up to the design to the implementation, to the opening. But you also have to be willing to adapt when when the building opens, there's going to be flaws, there's going to be things that need to change and code change as well. Christopher Sutton: When Waypoint Center opened its head office, head office in the newer locations we've opened since then, we've taken feedback we've received from the community to make sure those new facilities were even much more accessible. I would also say an important takeaway is accessibility features benefit everyone better. Q6 good lighting, barrier free circulation, clear communication systems experiences not only for the clients, but for the staff, for visitors, for everyone, so that they can have a barrier free, barrier free experience. And as I said, I really think the most important lesson is forward thinking at all levels of an organization. You need your leaders. You need your board. You can't just have frontline staff pushing this. You need people at every organization championing accessibility, Championing these best practices. Because if you don't, we're not going to get the change that we need to drive that lasting change. So I have to say, there's so much we can do together. And wavefront took a dream and they made it into a reality as they knew the benefits would have far greater rewards than just meeting this, this wonderful recognition of being the most rated facility in North America, but just being a place where you would see the smiles of families, hearing stories of people being able to enjoy the facility and go to any facility that they weren't able to go to and the experience they had there. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It must have been difficult for you to leave wavefront and assume your new role. Was it? Christopher Sutton: Well, Donna, I have to say, like I, I'm a person that likes challenge, like, you know, as an ambitious A-type personality and as an individual like, I really appreciated my time at Wavefront Center. It gave me so many lessons, so many teachings, and it really it really gave me the experience I needed for myself to be where I am today. But at the same time, I know that I've been recognized and I and I recognize for being able to bring people together, bringing organizations together, and really to be able to have some of those difficult dialogues. And I'm not scared to have difficult conversations and I and coming to the commission while leaving that beautiful facility that was so barrier free. It's been a fantastic experience here. When I was onboarding, they asked me what I needed. They asked me what technology I needed to support me, how how I need to be engaged in decisions and everything I've said. They made. Made. They made happen. And I have to say, they've been a fantastic organization. And I don't I wish every Canadian could see the work that's done here, because the work sometimes is quite slow. But the impact and the progress that is happening to impact the lives of every individual in this country is just astonishing. And and I really think the, the open arms and, and my colleagues here because they've been fantastic and it's really made up for some of the things that I miss that waypoint centre. But the people and and just really being leaders and making sure that my experience has been positive has been really, really fantastic. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You shared British Columbia's accessible, accessible services delivery Every standard committee which elements of that standard map most directly to national expectations under the under the Accessible Canada Act. Christopher Sutton: Donna, you know what I like you I was I was one of those individuals and organizations that worked hard to ensure the Accessible Canada Act was, was passed and made, made into regulations and and received Royal assent and spent many years advocating for, for for this this wonderful piece of this wonderful piece of legislation that really was groundbreaking. It created like this foundation and built something so that we can move forward with it and move forward with the times, Unlike other jurisdictions where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of pages. Thy shall, thy shall not. Da da da da da. We're actually able to build regulations that meet the times of today. One of the things that really inspired me after the passage of the Accessible Canada Act is that other jurisdictions like British Columbia, Manitoba other provinces quickly adopted their own accessibility legislation. And they really looked at this at the, at the principle of the Accessible Canada Act. Nothing without us. And I really think that that accessibility legislation was groundbreaking because it opened the minds that opened the ears and really open the hearts of our communities. And Canadians didn't want to sit back and say, no, we this is not a priority. It was a priority and it is a priority. So you know what? Like being a part of the work in British Columbia was very, very inspiring. They have a fantastic team that works at the Accessibility Directorate. They're a very small but mighty team. And and they did things differently than I was used to doing in Ontario or even at Accessibility Standards Canada. And the way they involve the community and building up and building their standards. Christopher Sutton: And the consultation and feedback has been incredible. Like I have to say, the work that was put on the feedback process of the service delivery standard and the amount of feedback they got back was incredible. I would also just say the BC drop standard and the Accessible Canada Act emphasize barrier free access to information and communication. That means that ensuring that our websites, documents, customer service channels are accessible in formats that people with diverse abilities can use, whether it's plain language, screen reader compatibility captioning, or sign language interpretation. There's also a strong focus on training and culture change. The Accessible Canada Act requires federally regulated organizations to build accessibility into their operations, and the BC draft standard references that by requiring staff to be trained in disability awareness, inclusive service delivery, and that's not about just putting a new policy out there in your HR handbook. That's about accessibility into everyday practice and not treating as an afterthought. And Donna, you and I both know when we embed accessibility intentionally into something, it benefits everyone. And I also think that both the the provincial legislation, the federal approaches recognize that accessibility is about designing and co-designing with the disability community at each and every step. We need to make sure that the community is involved with this process, and the experience of people with live, diverse experiences is what's going to change and really push the change that we need in this country to make sure that we're barrier free, whether it's 2040, 2025, 2050. But those are just timelines and dates. It's making the change that we need today so that the future will be barrier free. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess we got to keep pushing for more people to be convinced that accessibility is simply not a nice to have. It is a must. It is it. It benefits not just our community benefits everybody. Right. Christopher Sutton: Yeah. Like when I think of like I saw a commercial not too long ago, I don't know if it was a new commercial or something relatively older, but I just remember like how, how it showed how, what we would just say is simply as a door opener that was built and designed for a person with a mobility device, how it helps the package delivery driver, how it helps a parent with a child in a in a in a stroller, how it helps someone that's using a bike or someone with a temporary disability, something that was designed for our community has created tremendous benefit for all. I don't know how many times I go to a building, and I actually just see someone hitting that button. I actually never intentionally hit the button to open the open the accessible door or the kick the door open, because I'm always worried that I might be the one that breaks it. Yeah, the one that really needs it won't be able to use it, but it's it's just people really have come, I don't want to say dependent on it, but it's just become the norm for people. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For listeners who may not know the structure, what is the Accessibility Commissioner's mandate inside the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and how does it interact with the traditional human rights complaints process? Christopher Sutton: Yeah, Donna, that's actually another excellent question. You know what the the Accessible Canada Act brought three new separate organizations or individuals into the accessibility thing. We have the accessible the Accessibility Standards Canada, and they work on developing standards. We have the chief accessibility officer who is advising the minister on issues related to accessibility and keeping a pulse of the community. And then you have the accessibility commissioner, who really is my responsibility is to ensure compliance of the regulations and enforcement of them. And and it wasn't a mistake that they chose to house the accessibility Office of the Accessibility Commissioner within the Canadian Human Rights Commission. The Commission has a broad mandate to promote and to protect the human rights, including disability rights. In addition to being an accessibility commissioner, I'm also a member of the. See, a lot of people don't know that I get to wear two hats. I wear 4 or 5, but at the commission I wear two hats. I'm a full time member of the commission and can and render decisions and hear about human rights complaints and barriers and and also the accessibility Commissioner and many of your listeners. And you, Donna, know that the HRC has a mandate to deal with complaints of discriminations in federal jurisdictions Historically, those complaints have been mostly around disability issues. And as the Accessibility Commissioner, I am excited to work alongside my colleagues at the Commission to help move us from being a reactive, complaint based system to a human rights system that's proactive as well. So what's different about underneath the Accessible Canada Act is that we are actively out there working with federally regulated organizations and asking them to be proactive. Christopher Sutton: What are the barriers in your places of work? What are the barriers for your employers? What are the barriers for your clients so that they can proactively address them so that we don't even get to a stage where we actually have complaints, because organizations will be identifying and addressing the barriers and and solving those barriers Years before an individual has to come and follow a complaint. Since since the Accessible Canada Act has come into force, there's been a lot of work going on at the commission. This was a very new mandate, and it was a very new shift for the Commission. The commission was used to getting complaints that were reactive. We had to build a team. My team has had to work closely to ensure federally regulated organizations in Canada know about their obligations under the Accessible Canada Act and its regulations. We've had to meet with community and advocates to learn about their experience, to take that back, to inform our work, and we developed a wide range of compliance and enforcement tools. That includes a mechanism to deal with complaints if necessary. So the last several years has been so much activity going on at the commission to build this program so that we can be active and we can be ready to take complaints. But we don't necessarily want complaints. We really want to make sure that organizations identify the barriers and identify how to create solutions to overcome those barriers, so that we can live in communities and can live, and hopefully our grandchildren and great grandchildren can look back and never understand the word barrier, because it's never existed for them. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess we're in Two Hats for you is quite an interesting I wouldn't say challenge, but adventure, would you say? Christopher Sutton: Well, I would say. An appreciation. Because you know what? As I mentioned, the some of the largest number of complaints we get are based on disability and being the accessibility commissioner, I get to work with organisations to make sure we can identify those barriers and make sure that they're not barriers. But I guess get to also where that other side, where I can hear the complaints and the discrimination that individuals faced and be able to understand firsthand some of those complaints, but not only just in accessibility and disability, but also in the areas of race, sexual orientation and gender on, on, on so many diverse issues and and people that know me know that I am passionate about human rights. I'm passionate about all of these areas. So I have to say, when I was appointed to this role and I found out a part of that role, I can exercise the right to be also a full time member of the commission. That was like the icing on the cake, Donna. Like, I get to listen to accessibility stuff and champion change, but I also get to be involved in another area that I'm very passionate about as well. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear it in your voice, and, you know, I think we really need to double down on all of this and we really need to, you know, push more awareness, push the importance of this. So, you know. Christopher Sutton: And, you know, Donna, I you and I both know and you have a little bit more experience than I have. You've been a trailblazer and so many other my role models and and inspiration that that make me excited, not only excited but give me the passion to get up each day so I can carry the change and the torch that we've been doing this for years and years and years and years, and we've been talking about the barriers and talking about the barriers. We've been on this journey for a very long time, and I don't want to excuse the federal entities or businesses, but their journey is a little bit newer, and we need to make sure that they understand firsthand about the barriers. They need to include people with disabilities to understand about those barriers so they can make the changes. But we have to work together. We can't do this alone. The disability community can't do this alone. Governments can't do it alone. Regulated entities can't do it alone. Communities can't do it alone. We have to come together to do this together. We cannot come from one side only. And if we don't come together as a community working collaboratively, we're going to continue to face these barriers. So, Donna, your passionate advocacy, the work that I'm doing, the work of so many of our colleagues each day is so critical. But we also have to extend a little reach and include others because that's what's going to drive that change. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now the clock is winding down. But I would like to ask you this question. What words of wisdom do you have for the younger generation? How can they continue in our footsteps? How could we ensure that their future is a better future than what we've had? What can we do? What can they do? Christopher Sutton: You know, Donna, I, I think about that question often. And you talked about being a role model and a mentor. That's something that I, I aspire to and something that I've also taken time to do. I think role models and and And visibility is so important because we've been invisible for so long. And I don't think the younger generation, generation Expect? Or do they believe that they're going to be invisible? They are not going to be invisible. They are. They are a force of change. And I meet so many young people, and I listen to them on panels. I meet and hear their stories, and they don't want to live with a status quo that we live with. They are definitely making their change makers. And there there are of course, not to reckon with, but I would say there are many others that are the the more silent Christophers and the more silent donnas and that are living in isolation. I remember being in the library and spending a lot of time alone and being scared because I was being bullied and not not oh gosh. Yeah, I have to say some of the things that lessons I learned that I would carry on is just building a strong network can make a real difference in your own journey. Connect with people. Connect with people that are different than yourselves. Connect with people that are from different political political spectrums. Connect with people from different races, from different sexual orientations and different experiences. We need to keep our minds open. We need to have a dialogue. Christopher Sutton: We need to continue our dialogue. Make sure you also connect yourself with peers that understand what you're going through, so they can encourage you and can lift you up. I cannot stress enough about developing self-confidence, and I was so fortunate that my parents never, never, never let me hear the nos and the nays. And when I heard that, they made sure that Christopher, that is not a barrier and that will not be a barrier for you. Developing self-confidence and self-advocacy is so essential. I'm going to probably say something that's so popular, so some of the parents listening out there, but we have so many helicopter parents. And those helicopter parents are so protective of their their precious children. And I totally get that. But we also need to give our children the tools to be advocates. We can't wait for a child to go to university, or trade school, or community college, or even to a workplace, and not being an advocate themselves. They need to learn how to advocate for their for their technology, for their accessibility, for their for the accommodations they need. And their parents can't do it for them, frankly. So why? That was probably not the most popular thing to say. I hope your listeners that are parents also understand the importance of teaching their child about self-advocacy. They need to learn how to communicate. And I don't mean communicate by speaking or signing. I mean by learning to read, by understanding empathy, understanding compassion, understanding body language. And and really knowing that an accommodation is not a burden. It's a right that enables you to bring your best foot forward. Christopher Sutton: And I think there are also moments when the paths feel harder, when your perspective and you might question your contributions, but realize that each and every step was worth it, that you deserve to be at the table where every decision is made that impacts you. You need to sharpen your communication skills and need to be open to new doors. Need to be opening to educating others. I don't think people honestly, I like to think the best in everyone, and I don't think people intentionally want to go out there and and not allow me to have the accessible communication I need, or intentionally are not going to intentionally do things to put me at harm, but I think it's my responsibility to say I am death and I need a, b c not say I am deaf and it's up for you to figure it out what my needs are. I need to be myself advocate and I think the younger generation, they need to learn how to do that and I'm very confident they know how to do that. And I also have to say, and I'm sorry that I'm making this question much longer, but I'm reflecting as I think this. But it's so important to get involved with community organizations, with leadership programs, advisory groups. Donna, you and I sat at so many of these tables, and we see the same people every day. Yes, that's great, but we need some new fresh faces at the table. We do need new perspectives. New opinions. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Christopher Sutton: New experiences. You know, like it's it's it's I'm not putting any disrespect to the wonderful people that have led this, led this charge. But we also need to understand the perspectives of younger people. And also, I think you need to stay curious and embrace continuous learning that will take you far. Learn about policy. Learn about human rights. Learn about public service. Learn about giving back. Because you know what? I've been given so much throughout my journey and and I'll share something. When I was called into this position, this was not something that I just said, oh yeah, this is an awesome job. Wow. This is this is really cool. But also for me, it was a service. It was to give back to this country. Like as a person that's deaf, I'm not able to serve in our military or armed forces. I'm not able to do so many things and that's okay. But this was my calling to make sure that I could come to the forefront at these very critical times to make sure that I was able to bring voices to the table, I'm able to ensure that accessibility and barriers and all that are still a part of the very important conversations we're having today. So I encourage public service, I encourage people to get involved, and I encourage people to learn to reach out and to be and to be leaders. And it's okay if if you look at people like yourself, Donna or myself. And so I can't do that, that's too much. That's not what I want to be. But if you just can do it for yourself. So for your young people listening out there, I say to them that your unique experience is your greatest strength. Your voice matters, your ideas are needed, and your lived experience is critical. And without it, we can't make a powerful change. So we're coming through exciting times right now for disability rights in Canada. Change is happening and they got to be a part of that change. So stay true to yourself and what you believe in. And keep dreaming and dream big. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Powerful words from a powerful changemaker. And I want to thank you for having taken the time to be on our podcast here. And, you know, if at any time you feel that you would like to come back and spread the word and motivate the youngsters, please reach out to me, let me know, and I would be pleased to have you back. Yeah. Christopher Sutton: Donna, this has been my pleasure. I really enjoyed the last hour with you today. And please never hesitate to reach out. If you feel that I can bring my voice to your work and and to your listeners, because I'm always happy to do so. And Donna, thank you for all the work that you do each and every day. I know it's not easy, and I know that sometimes we wake up and we go, oh, why am I doing this? But you know why you're doing it, Donna. And you're making a difference. So I want to thank you for that. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. I am honored, and I'm humbled that, you know, to hear your comments. Please come back again soon. And thank you very much. Christopher Sutton: Thank you. Donna, have a wonderful evening. And thank you to our listeners. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Enjoy. Ottawa. Thank you. Christopher Sutton: Bye bye. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now. Christopher Sutton: Safe travels. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #62: Interview with Karoline Bourdeau and Chris Jonas, Blind Sailing | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-11-20-2025/ In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes blind sailors and leaders Karoline Bourdeau and Chris Jonas from Blind Sailing Canada to demystify what "blind sailing" really looks and feels like. Together they trace Karoline's journey from clinging nervously to the corner of a boat to becoming an avid racer, and Chris's perspective as both a competitive helm and long-time volunteer. They vividly describe the sensory world of sailing without sight, tracking the wind by how it hits your face and ears, listening for the changing sound of water on the hull, feeling heel through the tiller, and using the luffing of sails as an audio cue that something needs to be trimmed or adjusted. Along the way they dismantle the idea that sailing is only for the young or athletic, stressing that there's no real age limit so long as a person has enough strength and agility for the conditions at hand. Donna then leads a deep dive into how Blind Sailing Canada keeps its seven-day-a-week season running safely and inclusively, from a custom scheduling app and vetted sighted volunteers, to mandatory PFDs, pre-departure safety checklists, and carefully guided first sails that prioritize comfort and confidence. Karoline and Chris explain the contrast between their two boats, the responsive Capri 22 "C-Breeze" with a tiller beloved by racers, and the roomier 27-foot cruiser "Catch the Wind," and how each teaches different skills and experiences. They talk about teaching new sailors to board safely, offering as much or as little hands-on involvement as someone wants on day one, and why they actually use very little adaptive tech on board, preferring to sail "by feel" with clear verbal communication rather than constant electronic chatter. The conversation ends with an open invitation: anyone curious can join as a member, volunteer, or donor through blindsailing.ca, attend pub nights and dock parties, help with boat maintenance, and, most importantly, come out for that first sail and discover that there is truly nothing to be afraid of on the water. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010, I won the Landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019. I call it the Accessible Canada Act, with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets, lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest changemaker, whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Today, I am pleased to welcome Karoline Bourdeau and Chris Jonas. So, Karoline, welcome to our podcast. Karoline Bourdeau: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right, so I'd like to start things off by having you share the moment that you first realized that blind sailing Could be more than an experience that it could become your sport and your community. Karoline Bourdeau: Thank you. I'll start. By the first time I went sailing and I sat in the corner of the boat thinking, I don't like this. I don't want to do this. I don't trust this boat. Oh, no. This is not good. Oh, dear. And then about two years later I had been sailing for a while at that point, and people started saying, you want to race, you should come racing. And I was like, I am not the person you want racing because I don't know what I'm doing. And so three years ago now I joined a race. Thinking, okay, I'll try it just because I will try anything once. Almost. And there was something about the concentration, the shared goal, and actually making the quick decisions as you're at the helm of a boat. That just worked for me. And even though, you know, the first few minutes of a race, I'm all nerves. And I often wonder, why do they let me on these boats? It's an amazing experience, and I do love it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I could hear in your voice how much you like it, right? Karoline Bourdeau: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think it's it's great that, you know, blind sailing is there for us. As a blind host, I often navigate by sound, touch and clear language. Okay. For those listeners who have never sailed, can you walk us through the sensory feel of a good upwind grove? What you're listening for, what you're feeling through the helm and sheets and how you know you're trimmed, right? Karoline Bourdeau: Wow. Okay. So the sensory experience on a boat is like no other. There are so many things that you are feeling and listening for on a boat. So the direction of the wind. Where is it? On my face? Where is it coming from? Is it on my ears? How strong is it? Is the boat heeled over like is it? You know, how sideways is it? Chris and I are the same, and we like it really well heeled over. And you hear this if you're hearing your sails, that's called luffing. And that is probably meaning that you are not in the in the correct trim. And thankfully we have lovely sighted crew who can correct that for us. Or we can sometimes ask other blind sailors to change something in, in the lines, or sometimes it's just a simple adjustment that we make at the helm. On the boat with the tiller, you can feel the boat pull sometimes and and sometimes you can adjust you feel that on the wheel as well. But I find that the tiller is way more sensitive and way more responsive than a wheel for me. I don't know if that answers your question. Chris Jonas: So I'll just add add to that, if I may. So the things that Caroline mentioned are, are all accurate. It's also the, the, the sound of the water as it laps against the hull of the boat. If you if you feel that changing, then you know, something has changed and you need to get back into the groove. And usually you can also tell along with all the other things Caroline mentioned, you can tell by how the water feels against the hull of the boat. And when when Caroline was mentioning the sails luffing that generally means that you're sailing a little too close to the wind. So the best thing to do in that circumstance is to bear off the wind a little bit, and that usually resolves it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, this sounds really technical to me here. Well. Chris Jonas: Well, well, some of us, some of us as as you may know, are are quite avid racers as well as recreational sailors. So when you get into racing, you, you kind of get a lot more knowledgeable about how to adjust things and what's happening out there. It's it's a great way to learn more very quickly because you're in a very competitive environment usually, and you need to make decisions quickly. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Is there an age limit for racing? Like too old, too young, too old? Chris Jonas: That's an it's an interesting question. The short answer is no. There are racers that start like, basically soon after they start walking. I mean, their parents get them into sailing very, very young. And and a lot of those, those parents are racers themselves, so they, you know, they bring their, their, their kids along sometimes in terms of too old as long as, as long as you still have the strength. It's mostly a question of strength and agility on board, because sometimes you can get into a very rough situations. And if you still have the strength and the agility, like I, I've, I've raced with someone in his 80s and he was an excellent racer, you know so there's, there's no real upper limit. It just it's, it's very individual as to how that particular person is feeling and is able to adapt to the weather conditions and the and the racing conditions. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So there may be still hope for me then. Chris Jonas: Absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Karoline Bourdeau: Hey, if I got there, you can. Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Lordy, no blind sailing. Canada runs a full Fall in season schedule, often seven days a week from mid-May to mid-October. How do you coordinate boats, weather calls, transportation volunteers, and staff safety so consistently? Chris Jonas: Well, that's a loaded question. Do you want to do you want to start answering that, Caroline? Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah. And then you can fill in on this. So we we actually have a scheduling website that we call the sailing app, and members, crew and skippers are all signed up for that as soon as they become members or are or have joined us as volunteers. And basically, it's a lot of it is, you know, a group of people says, I want to sail on Saturday. So they create a sail and now other everyone can join it because they can see it. And we have capacity on the different, the two different boats. So once a sail is full then it kind of disappears from the available sails. And sometimes we end up with the situation where both boats are out at the same time. And that's wonderful. We love to see that. And we actually do sometimes have a summer student through Canada summer jobs who helps with the coordinating of the different sails. The safety is like, our biggest concern, and our skippers and volunteers and our members actually are really quite careful and very good at learning what needs to be done and how to stay safe. Because safety, learning and fun are our three principles. And we really do enjoy an amazing community that is very aware and very inclusive and the transportation issue a lot of our members use wheel-trans some people carpool. Just depends on the situation, but I'll tell you, they get there. Chris Jonas: We also we also have pretty pretty good TTC access through various streetcars that will go very close, at least two different streetcar lines, one, one starting at Spadina station, one starting at Union Station. So it's actually quite easy to get there if you're comfortable using TTC. I'll, I'll, I'll add to the the safety question in that we have a very, very extensive volunteer vetting program. So any new volunteer interested in in joining our program must first go out on what we call a vetting sail with an experienced skipper who will assess their their boat knowledge, their sailing ability, just to make sure that they are comfortable both sailing the vessel in a very safe manner and also is comfortable dealing with blind or vision impaired members on board because that's the environment that they will they will be in when they actually go out on a real sail after they've passed the vetting section. So it's very important that they both know, know their way about a boat, know enough about sailing to be able to handle the boats in all weather conditions safely, and also feel very comfortable communicating with a demographic that they may not previously have had much exposure to, namely the blind community. So we look at every aspect of it, and we've had an incredibly successful history in terms of not have I don't think we've ever had any really major accident. We've had little, you know, little scrapes and minor accidents here and there that oftentimes is more the result of the weather than anything else. But we've done a remarkably good job of keeping all of our members and volunteers safe and also kept our boats away from any truly major damage. So you know, it's a great program in that regard. As Caroline said, safety is the number one concern. It always has been. And and Bsac or blind sailing has always done, I think, a really, really good job with with that particular aspect of it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where are you guys located? Like where is your base? Chris Jonas: So it's Marina Key West, which is in Toronto Harbor between Bathurst and Spadina. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Chris Jonas: Most people probably get off either, depending on well, most people take wheel-trans, which comes right into the parking lot, so very close to the Marina office. And then we'll usually have a volunteer meet them at the office and walk them to the boats. If they're coming by TTC, then you know, if they're on the Spadina line, they'll get off at the Queen's Key stop, which is Queens Quay and Spadina, and it's an easy walk over from there. Or if they're on the other line on the Queens Quay line that comes from Union, they'll get off at Dan Leckie, which is even a little bit closer to the Marina office. So it's quite accessible in that regard. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Your training pathway is aligned with mainstream standards and adapted for blind and low vision sailors. What does the first lesson look like? What are the first three skills that you teach, and how do you move someone from their first day sail to confidently helming? Chris Jonas: It's just it's just mostly practice, practice, practice, practice. The more exposure you get to it, the more skills you learn, the more comfortable you feel aboard a sailboat, the more your muscle memory kicks in. It's just it's just all. It's just really comes down to time in the boat. And the more you do it, the better you get at it. Just like a lot of a lot of things. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Yeah. Karoline Bourdeau: Some of us have done some you know, sale Canada training where, you know, we've spent time with an instructor on a boat. But it's not a requirement for our members. You know, most of us just get the experience by being on the boat. And I would say the first lesson just to go back to that is how to get on the boat safely and how to get off the boat safely. Because that's a huge, I think, point of concern for most of us as new sailors. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So for someone like myself who would probably need a refresher course, tell me what? Tell me what the first day would look like for me. Karoline Bourdeau: So you would be met at the Marina office? And then somebody would walk with you to the dock. You would be guided on to the boat, basically by someone showing you where the stanchion is. Put your hand on the boat and showing you where to step. And basically explaining where are things located on the boat and, you know, telling you where you should be. And then it goes from there. And the first sail is usually like, we try and make it a calm sail where it's not too windy, not a lot of heel on the boat so you can get to experience whatever you want to do. If you want to try and and see what lines feel like or how it feels to pull a line. Or if you want to get on the helm, you can try that as well. We'll make sure that we're in an open space where you can do that. And yeah, and a lot of people love it. They want to come back as soon as you put them on the helm. I think most of them say that. That's it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I did try it years ago, like I mentioned to you before with Susan and Francis. Maybe next year. I'm not going to promise, but you know. Yeah. No. Karoline Bourdeau: No. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Safety is foundational, right? What are your pre-departure routines? Okay. Okay. Rolls call and response commands. And how do you brief a brand new sailor so that they are safe and fully participating from the first time? So someone like myself. Karoline Bourdeau: Chris, do you want to take that on? Chris Jonas: So. So the first part of that question we do have a checklist, a digital checklist that that every skipper must fill out before leaving the dock. And it is they are required to go through the boat and and check off all of the required safety equipment that must be there. You know, things like a sound device in case you get close to another boat and you have no other way of letting them know that, that you're on a collision course, and maybe something's broken on our boat and we can't get out of their way or they don't see us. You need a sound device, a device to let them know things like a buoyant, heaving line in case someone falls overboard and you need something that floats, that you can toss out to them, because they may not know where it is, but you can toss it out and say, okay, it's it's two feet to your left. Just move to your left a couple of feet and grab it, and then we can pull them back into the boat. You know, things like a flashlight, fire extinguisher. There's a whole list of, of of safety equipment that must be on board. You know, flares in case you need to send a visual signal so other boats may see where you are if you're not near to anyone, that sort of thing. There's a whole list. And we skippers must go through that list. Check off each item in turn and make sure that they're there before and you know, and submit that. And then they must have that done before they're allowed to to leave the dock. So and it's the same on the way back when they're back in, we must make sure that all of that same equipment is still there and present and in the right place on the, on the boat, so that the next skipper can find it easily. So there's that. Caroline, do you want to. Yeah. Answer the next part of it. Karoline Bourdeau: Sure. So it's a requirement for blind sailing that before the boat leaves the dock that everyone is wearing a a PhD, and you can you can bring your own or you can use one of ours. Our boats have them on board in the different sizes. So basically we make sure the, the new person is fitted properly so that, that it's not too loose, it's not going to come off them or not too tight. So they're uncomfortable. And then like I said before, we try and walk them through the boat to show them where things are, talk to them about what's going to happen, try to describe to them you know what, What is happening? Like we're untying the boat right now. You know, we're going to pull out that sort of thing, and then we'll just keep them posted as to what is happening and when it's time that we can put up the sails, we we will ask them if they want to be involved in doing that, helping either tail or or pull lines, depending on, on how you know they're feeling and their strength or what they think they can do. Some people want to do absolutely nothing the first time. They just want to kind of observe and take it all in. So we're very flexible as to like what happens on the first day. But everyone is always offering information and guidance, and I think that goes for members and for crew as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do I need to be a good swimmer in order to be able to enjoy fine sailing. I mean, I am a good swimmer, but I'm just curious. Chris Jonas: No, no. Not necessarily. I mean, you have an a certified PFD personal flotation device, which in the event that you, you fall in the water and are not a good swimmer. Yeah. That will keep you afloat until someone is able to come back and and pull you out of the water. And, you know, sailing is very interesting in that there is a a well known man overboard routine. Yeah. For how to go about returning back to where, you know, the, the person is in the water and, and making sure that they safely get back on board and, you know, it's, it's something that every sailor learns. It's part of the the basic cruising course. If you, if, you know, for those that have have taken that, and a lot of our members actually have. And we we even offer that through our through blind sailing. And we did that for many years. And so a lot of over time, a lot of our, our members already have that course and they know about things like that. But, you know, if you don't do it frequently then it's easily forgotten. So it's more important for the sighted crew to know those skills. And they're usually more, more adept, and they're the ones that we would rely on anyway to in that kind of a situation. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So let's talk a bit of tech here. What adaptive tools, audio compasses, talking GPS or smartphone apps do you actually rely on aboard, and what protocols do you use to make sure that information is timely, concise, and useful under load. Chris Jonas: The. I'll address that one. The truth is, Donna, that we don't really rely a great deal on any kind of, you know, audible technology or anything like that. We do have some devices that we use. It's mostly just for information more than something that our members rely on. For example, there's something called cell Timer that we have on one of our boats that gives all kinds of really useful information about, you know, what is the wind speed, what is the wind angle to the boat? Right. And if and it will give you you can and you can filter it to give more or less information. So it'll, it'll we we usually have just a limited amount of information coming out. Otherwise like it's constantly babbling because it will always tell you something. And it's easy to get lost in all of that. But, you know, it's really useful to know what's the wind speed and what's the the angle of the wind to the boat. So if you veer off that angle and you know you want to continue on that angle, then you can kind of turn the boat back to where you were before. And, and, and the sail timer will tell you as you're getting closer to it. Chris Jonas: We don't really use we don't really use talking compasses though or anything like that. Karoline Bourdeau: No, I was going to add that, Donna, sailing is something that you really need to do by feel. So as we were talking about before, it's really important for us to know what the wind is doing, where our boat is and what things we need to do. And we also rely very heavily on our sighted crew to keep us in line. Communication is huge. So everybody on the boat participates in that, And what I love about sailing sometimes it's how peaceful and quiet it is. I don't want anything chattering at me. It's my time to get away from all the things that chatter at me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Is there such a thing as a talking compass? Chris Jonas: Yeah. There is. We actually we had a couple at one at one point. I don't know where they got to over the years, but we never really used them very much so. But there is definitely such a thing. And the ones today are probably more advanced than the ones we had years ago. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm curious to see how it works. I mean, I got a very basic one many, many years ago. I wouldn't even call it useful. I mean, you pressed a button and it would tell you if you're facing east or west or north or south, I you know, but I'm curious. I mean, where would I purchase one of these. Chris Jonas: A talking one? I could I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Karoline Bourdeau: Show would be a place to look. But also, I actually played with my iPhone as a talking compass. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes. Karoline Bourdeau: And it works. But again, the problem with it was that it was constantly talking. Every time I adjusted, it adjusted. So. Screen Reader: You know, I love it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, that's the thing with the iPhone. It talks and talks and talks and talks and I mean I agree with you. You know, you go sailing, you want quiet moments. You don't want people chatting. Not people, but things chatting at you. Right? Chris Jonas: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You sail and train on two very different boats. The Catalina Capri 22. Yes. Sea breeze Tiller and the 27 foot cruiser. Catch the wind. I like that. And how does each platform teach different skills? And how do you decide which boat is right for a given sailor or session? Chris Jonas: Caroline. Caroline already touched on that a little bit. You're right. They are very different experiences. One is five feet longer with a wheel versus a tiller. Caroline talked about how the smaller boat, sea Breeze, is more responsive and and just going by feel. It's easier to feel the boat movements from the tiller than it is on the larger boat with the wheel. So in terms of what is right for individual members, it's, it's it's really up to the member themselves because some prefer, I would say the majority probably prefer the larger boat because it's it's bigger, it's more comfortable. You know, there's more room for, you know, for for a dog if you bring it on both above, above deck and below deck. And it's a, it's a different it's a more of a leisurely feel. Whereas the smaller boat we use that for racing and it's, it's almost exclusively we use for racing because it's, it's designed for that. And we've been very successful in our racing program. We race against the totally cited Fleet fleet at National Yacht Club and we do quite well. But but there are, there is the occasional member that actually does prefer the smaller boat just for that reason that they they feel they feel it's more responsive and they, they're just more comfortable with that. But the majority prefer the larger boat. But, you know, we, we offer both boats obviously to, to all the members. And it's really up to them, as I said, to decide which one they prefer. Karoline Bourdeau: What I for one prefer the smaller boat, but. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. But what's the difference between a tiller and a wheel? For someone like me who is pretty naive about all of this? Chris Jonas: So a wheel. A wheel is very similar to an automobile wheel, if you think of that. Yeah. You know, the same shape, the same design. If you want to turn the boat starboard, starboard or right, then you turn the wheel right. If you want to go left, then you, you turn the wheel left. So it's exactly the same idea as a steering wheel in a car, right? The tiller is the opposite. If you want to go port or left, then you you turn the the tiller in the opposite direction because there is a rudder attached. Well, I mean, there's a rudder attached in both cases. But the way it the connection works with a tiller is opposite to how it works with a wheel. So you need to turn the you need to turn the rudder. You need to know which way you need to turn the rudder. And it's always with a tiller. It's always in the opposite direction to the way you want to go. So that's, that's the main difference. Other than the tiller, you feel more of the boat movement through the tiller than you do through the wheel. So it's more responsive and easier to figure out How? How? How to. You know, move. Move the wheel or the rudder? As opposed to the other boat. So those are the main differences. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Caroline, anything to add? Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah, I just in case people don't know what a tiller looks like, it basically looks like a horizontal stick. Does that sound like a good description, Chris? I was trying to figure out how you describe it. Chris Jonas: Yeah, it's a it's a stick that that runs horizontally. From the from the stern of the boat. Where the where where it connects to the rudder immediately below. And and horizontally. Sorry. Vertically. Getting my directions mixed up vertically across the. No, horizontally. I was right the first time. Horizontally across the boat. So usually when you're grabbing the tiller, you will grab it at the the end, closer to the middle part of the boat. Or on our boat, we have a, a traveler about a third of the way from the back of the boat and the the tiller goes almost up to where the the traveler is. And, you know, you you. I'm sure you'll ask later what a traveler is. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm going to ask right. Chris Jonas: Now and we can tell you, but, you know, it's it's used mostly for racing. It's to fine tune the boat. And but when you're using the tiller, you'll use the, the end of the, the the stick that is most forward in the boat. And that gives you better leverage in the boat. It gives you better balance in the boat. And it also, tillers also have something a wheel doesn't have, which is a tiller extension. Okay, so that is a separate attachment. On the tiller that allows the the helms person if they want. And not all of our members are comfortable with this, but you can use the tiller extension instead of the tiller itself. And that allows you to move higher up on the boats and, and put your weight further to the side of the boat. You're up higher, closer to the wind. So you feel the wind better. So there's all kinds of advantages with a tiller extension, but it also takes a little bit of getting used to in order to use it. Effectively. Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I owe it to myself to at least come out once or twice to to get familiar with all of this. This is all new stuff to me. I mean, I am a sweet person. I love, I love the the lake, I love the ocean. I love anything to do with water. But this is really incredible. Chris Jonas: Yeah. You should definitely come out. Karoline Bourdeau: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I see the clock is starting to wind down. But you know what? Tell me, how could how could someone who is interested join? Where do they go? How do they get more information? Are you looking for new members? Karoline Bourdeau: Of course. We're looking for new members. They can go to blind sailing. And it is our newly redone website. Calendar. Sorry. Screen Reader: Accessibility meeting today. Karoline Bourdeau: Sorry about that. That's okay. And they can look it up there. They're. Our contact information is right there. They can send an email to info at Blind Sailing and someone will see that. Or they can board members have I think, link contacts on the website as well. They can reach out. And we're always looking for new members. We're always looking for volunteers. And skippers, of course. Chris Jonas: And I was looking for donations. Karoline Bourdeau: Yes, I was going to get to that as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, tell me, do you have any special fundraising events planned? For the near future? Karoline Bourdeau: Well, this year we're not going to the boat show because we found over the last couple of years that there aren't a lot of sailboats. So we're finding that sailors are not going to the boat show, so we're going at it a little bit differently. We are just creating a fundraising committee to come up with new things for us to do, but we always take donations through our website we take credit cards and you can actually e-transfer to us at finance. But we are hoping to be out in the community at different events that are hosted by the different sailing clubs and yacht clubs. Because, you know, networking in the sailing community is very important to us. Yeah. And we'd be happy to keep you posted as to new events that come up. We always have a monthly pub night, and people are always welcome to join that. So if you reach out, we'll let you know where the next one would be. And you're welcome to come out and meet some sailors. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How many members do you have at the present time? Karoline Bourdeau: I actually looked and I think we have 30 members that are right now and probably the same in crew or a little bit less. But once people have volunteered with us, we, we try not to let them go. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Right, right. Is there anything that either of you would like to share before we end our podcast? And I would like, you know, if you guys wanted to come back at any time because I think, you know, blind sailing, a lot of sighted people say, but blind sailing, how does that how is that? What how can it be? And I think, you know, like, more publicity for blind sailing. I know you do a lot of of publicity already, but I guess because of my interest in wanting to at least try it once or twice. Anything else you'd like to share? Chris Jonas: I think I think just. And and Caroline again, I think has touched on this, but we do have like the social component is very, a very important aspect of the club. Yeah. And that you know, part of the mandate of blind sailing is, is to increase our members self-confidence, get them out more into the community than maybe they would otherwise have had had an opportunity to do you know, put them in a supportive, friendly environment with, with other sailors that they already know. And our, you know, our pub nights are one such avenue. There's also other things like dock parties, which are held regularly on board our boats during the course of the summer you know, usually at least once a month. We occasionally would have a destination cruise on our boats to a place like Island Yacht Club and go to their their clubhouse and have lunch there, for example, as, as a whole group of members and volunteers. So just always looking for opportunities to socialize and to integrate members with the broader community. And that is an important mandate, one of the mandates of blind sailing. And I think most members really enjoy the social aspect as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that is terrific. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Karoline Bourdeau: The one other thing that I think we don't talk enough about and I know for me it's been amazing is that the members can also be involved in boat maintenance so they can come out to work parties and, and help prepare the boat for the season, or help to put the boat away for the winter. Occasionally help with repairs. I think those are really good, interesting confidence building skills as well, because, you know, once you've repaired a boat or you've done work on it, you've come a little more familiar with it, maybe you're more comfortable and you get to know people a bit better. So there are lots of things to do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But for boat repair, like for someone like me, I probably would be interested in learning more about boat repair. Am I under the guidance of a sighted person? Karoline Bourdeau: Yes, totally. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Chris Jonas: Yeah. Usually. Usually the club's fleet manager, Theo would, would be in charge of of that. And it's not just repair. It's like there's all kinds of tasks you can do, like help to to wax the boats, you know, help to, to, to clean them. There's all kinds of things, you know, putting boat both covers on in the fall and taking them off in the fall. In the. In the spring. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Spring? Chris Jonas: Yeah. You know, there's things that you don't need any real knowledge. You just need to follow instructions. And a lot of that stuff is fairly straightforward, but it's very important as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So how do I as a potential. Well, sailors where do I start. What do I do. Like do I start with boat repair. Do I start with with what. Karoline Bourdeau: I would say by by actually. Chris Jonas: With a sail. I mean that's probably the starting point for most people. You probably want to do that before you get into, you know, some of the work parties. Yeah. The, the, the working part of it. People, people don't always want to make the work part of it. And there's, you know, there is a significant portion that is work and does an incredible job Up coordinating all of that. But, you know, a lot of members just want to come out sailing. And, you know, we have actually probably a very small core group of volunteers and members that will actually come out to the the hard work part of it, but it needs to be done. And, you know the ones that do come out really, really highly appreciated by all because it is so important and so critical for the continued success of the organization. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Does your season start in May? Karoline Bourdeau: As soon as we can get the boats in the water? Yeah, usually. Chris Jonas: Usually early May. Karoline Bourdeau: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Anything else you'd like to share with our listeners? I mean, I think this is a fascinating topic. You know, more people would love to know about blind sailing. And is there anything else you would like to tell us? Karoline Bourdeau: Just. Karoline Bourdeau: You gotta try it. That's the only thing I can say, because we can describe it all you want. And until. But until you feel the boat move and you start to unravel what's happening and and to learn for yourself, you won't really understand it. Chris Jonas: Yeah. A lot of people have an unreasonable fear of sailing because it's just because it's something they have no experience in and they don't know what to expect. But there's really with our with the blind sailing, there's really nothing to be afraid of. We have excellent volunteers that will make sure of your safety, that will show you the ropes, so to speak. And you can do as much or as little as you want. You will not be exposed to wind or water conditions that you are not comfortable with, so there's really nothing to be afraid of. It's just a really enjoyable experience and and a great thing to try if you've never done it before. I mean, it's something everyone's got to try at least, you know, once or twice. Karoline Bourdeau: I'd say that, yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is there a similar program in any of the other provinces? Karoline Bourdeau: We're working on that. So we've we've started a program in Vancouver this year, and I have heard interest from Ottawa and from Halifax. So we'll be working on those. So, yeah. Coming soon. Hopefully we'll be everywhere. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Caroline and Chris, it was a pleasure having you today. I mean, I've learned so much about tillers and wheels and on starboard and the port and everything like that. I really enjoyed this podcast, and I'd like to invite you to come back at any time. If you think you know there's a way to publicize what you're doing. If I can do anything through these podcasts, we have hundreds or thousands of listeners worldwide, so please don't hesitate to reach out. Chris Jonas: Will do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much, folks. And you will probably see me. I'm. Knock on wood here next year, at least to try it and see what goes on. Karoline Bourdeau: That would be wonderful. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much and have a great rest of the day. Chris Jonas: Yes. Well. Thanks, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hi, Chris. Hi, Caroline. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #61: Interview with Ed Henkler, Founder, The Blind Guide | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-11-17-2025/ In this uplifting episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Ed Henkler, founder of The Blind Guide, to trace his move from the Navy and a long corporate chapter to a purpose-driven life shaped by his mother's vision loss and years of service with an association for the blind. He explains how an unexpected early retirement nudged him toward assistive-tech innovation and advising startups, then unpacks the origin of The Blind Guide, including the ethic of offering an arm rather than grabbing one. Ed shares his "choose to thrive" philosophy, outlining six progressive levels that start with basic daily living skills and build toward personally defined peaks, illustrated by sensory-rich experiences, new hobbies, and elite pursuits that show what thriving can look like in practice. For listeners seeking practical takeaways, Ed maps a clear playbook. acknowledge grief and then choose to thrive, plug into in-person O&M and tech assessments through local associations, shift from "caretaker" to "caregiver," and use creative bartering to trade tasks so independence grows alongside support. Speaking to employers, he reframes disability hiring as a measurable business win, citing stronger retention, safety, productivity, and morale when teams include people with disabilities, and he urges leaders to tell business-forward stories rather than pity narratives. The conversation closes with an invitation to live broadly at any age or ability, to pursue independence with smart support, and to value the problem-solving ingenuity that people with vision loss bring to work and community. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and a stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter Challenge case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently on June the 3rd, 2022. I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles. One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Ed Henkler, welcome to my podcast. Ed Henkler: Thank you so much, Donna. It's a pleasure to be here, and I commend you on all the things that you've done and continue to do. It's such important work and it's good to have somebody that refuses to accept the answer. No. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I am so happy that you are on our side of the fence. So, editor, I'd love to start with your inflection point after the US Navy and two decades of work. Right. What led you to retire early and to reimagine your career around accessibility? Ed Henkler: Donna, I'd love to tell you that it was an active decision by me, but I think the truth is it's probably I've been more passive in my career. So I'll back up just for a second. As you said, I spent ten years in the nuclear power Navy. I'm proud of it, but my family didn't have any particular veteran history. So while I'm proud of it, I can't necessarily say I was passionate about it. Right. And then when I joined Merck, I really had no connection to biopharma. But it was a good school or a good good company, and it paid well. And I had skills that were well suited to the environment. So I spent 31 years of my life, as I tell people, doing things of which I was proud but probably never passionate. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Ed Henkler: And then, age 52, I was early retired, so it was not necessarily my choice. I could have stepped down, but but it was an early retirement. So that that's good financially that you're retired rather than laid off. But it really it wasn't an active decision on my part. In fact, I admire people that proactively make decisions such as the one that I would say I was more led into. But the other part of what went on while I was at Merck, my mom lost her sight to age related macular degeneration. So I'm cited, as you know. But my mom lost her vision in her late 60s, and it was also in the 1990s. I can tell you at the time, I don't believe I had ever been around somebody who was blind. I doubt that's completely true, but it's fair to say I was unaware if I was around them and I really knew nothing about it. She was down in Florida, we were in Pennsylvania, and we moved her from Florida up to Pennsylvania. As I'm sure many of your listeners know, there are a lot of treatments available nowadays for AMD that won't necessarily cure it, but will defer vision loss. When my mom had the vision loss, there was nothing out there. It was just a matter of what I remember as laser cauterization to to take care of the leaking blood vessels, but nothing that was going to cure it or or maintain her sight. We moved her up. We found an association for the blind, which I considered just good fortune because without the type of internet we have nowadays, we really just stumbled across the resource, right? And they were marvelous. Ed Henkler: They taught her the skills. They taught her. They visited her apartment. They did vision rehab, all that. And she learned to thrive with vision loss. She became a speaker for the association. She used to take Philly Rapid Transit all over to get to places including the flower show, which is one of the most densely populated events you probably find anywhere. And she actually traveled outside the country for the first time in her life, and it was after she lost sight. So I watched her and I said, obviously, you can thrive with vision loss. It's something that I think most people fear it. In fact, I've asked the question, would you rather lose a limb or lose your sight? And it's rare that somebody says sight over limb. And then when I actually say she'll never see your grandchild again, or you never see your spouse. And then they say, oh, well, maybe the limb. So the point is, losing limbs are horrific experience. And yet people would rather have that than the vision loss. And I think it's I think it's because they don't understand. They don't understand what's possible. It's just kind of a mystical area to all of them. And I think that causes a lot of the problems that we'll probably talk about on the podcast. But anyway, I watched her thrive. I was like, okay, so I see what happens there. So I joined the, the the board of the Association for the Blind as board president for a stint. I spent 13 years with them doing whatever I could to help people. And that was also the period during which I eventually had that early retirement. Ed Henkler: I tried to go back into biopharma without any success. I would blame that mostly on me and on lack of networking skills, but the bottom line was I wasn't able to go back in. And then somewhere along the way, in the space of a few weeks, I had multiple people say, you're always interesting to talk to, but when you talk about blindness, you just come alive. So after hearing that three times in a short period of time, I went home to my wife and I said, I think the universe is yelling at me. I just need to listen. I switched my pitch and I said, I want to help people thrive with vision loss always coming at it from the perspective of a caregiver and a sighted person. I won't pretend to have walked the same walk as somebody who's blind, but at least I've been around it and I've watched it. And that changed my life. I, I joined a startup out of the University of Pennsylvania. We spent five years trying to develop something that maybe is just starting to be available now, which is Beacon Indoor Navigation. Still an imperfect solution, but we spent five years. We didn't, unfortunately, succeed, maybe a little bit too early on the technology curve, but then I got involved in helping other Companies developing assistive technology for the blind. And I can say, while the compensation is not nearly what I had before, for the first time in my life, I'm truly passionate about and I love what I do. And I love the ability to impact people's lives directly, which was never a part of my earlier careers. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I can hear it in your voice, I really can. Yeah. What's the origin story behind the blind guy? What? You know what? What? What's it with the name? And what problem were you determined to solve when you launched it? Ed Henkler: It started really with just needing an LLC. I, I had never worked alone. I had always been part of a large institution. And so it became apparent I needed an LLC for my consulting for anything else that I did. And we looked a lot at names, the idea. And I said, as I mentioned to you before, I view my role in part as focused on caregivers, but also helping people who are blind thrive. And I know we come back to that also in a little bit, but the idea of being a guide to somebody who's blind just seemed to make sense to me. And then we actually chose the logo to emphasize something that I know you've talked about before, and that is the the guide needs to provide an arm for the person who's blind to hold, as opposed to grabbing their arm. My mom had a lot of discussions with me on that. She used to get so frustrated, and I would always take that viewpoint that I know it's frustrating. Realize the person is really just trying to help you. They just don't understand the right way to do it. And I understand from your perspective. You're just tired of it happening and it's frightening and it's scary and it makes you feel you're going to trip, right. Ed Henkler: But just try to remember they're doing it. They're doing it for the right reasons. They're doing the wrong thing, but they're doing it for the right reasons. So it comes back to that idea of guiding people, helping them on their journey, and the idea that I don't think it's enough to survive with blindness. I think it's possible. I think a lot of people do survive with blindness. They they learn the basic skills. They may seldom leave their apartment, but they can. But they're not doing what they did before. They're they're surviving. And I think it's an unnecessary restriction. I think it's absolutely possible to thrive. Thrive has many different interpretations. You could be a Paralympian. You could just be somebody that likes to cook for their friends, who happens to be blind. But it's thriving in your own way, and it's not being satisfied to do the minimum in life, but rather to do everything you did before. And maybe due to some new things, I met one woman who learned to surf after after losing her sight. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my. Ed Henkler: Gosh. And a lot of other stories like that. So I just think so much is possible and we self-limit what is possible. And our caregivers often self not self-limit but limit us because they're afraid. People would say to me, I mentioned my mom going to the flower show and people say, why aren't you worried? What if she got hit by a car? And my answer would always be, and I'm going to put a caveat on it. But I would always say I would rather she was hit by a car, going to do something she really wanted to do than sitting safely in her apartment not doing anything. And my caveat is clearly whoever hit her, no matter how much we absolve them of the guilt, their life has changed also. And I don't. So I don't say that in a trivial way. I understand that, but the concept is more let the person free. And if it leads to a bad outcome, so be it. At least they're loving life and thriving while they're alive, rather than this perceived safety of not going anywhere. And I get you asked the mission. So the mission really is all about that thriving not being satisfied to to to be able to get to the train station or the bus station, maybe get to the food store, but rather going out singing in a chorus, playing golf learning to surf, whatever it may be, whatever your personal area of enjoyment is. But I want to see everybody, if possible, do that because I know that they can, and it's so much richer a life. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What a wonderful philosophy. You often say, and I quote, choose to thrive. Okay. And talk about quote level. Via. Via. Via. Va are thriving. Okay. How do you distinguish thriving from coping for someone? Adjusting to vision loss. And what does thriving look like day to day? Ed Henkler: So I, I created a chart that's available on my website that has six different levels. And the first level, it's my thriving levels. But the first level is is very basic. It's ADLs, the activities for daily living, it's learning O&M and navigation skills. It's really very, very basic, probably with a caregiver at your side, but just learning how to manage a world without sight or, or at least without the sight that you originally had. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Ed Henkler: So that's level one that's surviving, but I still put it on my thriving level. Level two. Now you're starting to do a little bit more than you did before. Or maybe you have friends, maybe somebody, a caregiver to you and have them over for dinner. You fix maybe a little bit more of a fancy meal for them just to do something different. Perhaps you're going out to events, you're going to see a play. And I always I use the verb see loosely, but I know many people who are blind use it very freely. And there's a lot that you can enjoy. In fact, I'm going to give you another example with my mom. When my mom was alive, she said, I really want to go see the the Phillies game, the the Philadelphia baseball team. Okay. And I, I would like to say that I said this nicely, but I bet you I didn't. I said, well, you can't see. What. Why do you want to go to the game. Yeah, I just I don't know, I just really want to go. And I said it seems kind of silly to me. You really can't see. Yeah. But we went back and forth and I finally said, all right, well, we'll go down to the game. So I grabbed a friend just so we could help maneuver in logistics and everything. And we're walking into the ballpark, and I thought, I know exactly why she wants to go. It's the smells. It's the sound, the crowd. It's so many other sensory impacts that have nothing to do with vision. And I just it was a learning moment for me because I was viewing her request from that, the standpoint of somebody who sighted and she just wanted to go do something and be be in the middle of that. Ed Henkler: And with today's TV technology, most people that see any sporting event live would tell you that you can't see it nearly as well as you could on your TV at home. But there's something magic about being in that stadium amongst so many people, cheering for something common. It's a very enervating experience, so it doesn't have to be about sports. But the point is that's probably in that level two, maybe level two three. Range level three. And I say you can personalize these because for somebody these levels are going to look very different. I know a number of Paralympians. They're they're level six is setting world records. And you don't have to do that to thrive at a level six. So it's very individual at that point, which is why I give the person an opportunity to say, what does it look like for you? I've told you my basic levels, but what does it look like for you? You hit level three. I'm going to say, now you're living the same life you did. And I was always struck when I first went to the Association for the blind with my mom, somebody spoke up and said, you know what, I hate this. He said, yeah, you guys are trying. It's really nice. And here I am hanging out with a bunch of blind people I don't know. He said, I want to go with my friends and go do what I did before I lost my sight. Ed Henkler: And that struck me so powerfully. It's like I felt we were doing my mom a great favor to take her down there and let her meet other people who are blind. Learn how they were dealing with it, which I think is important. But that wasn't the end. She wanted to do things with us and do things with her friends, just as she had before she lost her sight. Something that's absolutely achievable. But maybe we forget about it. And I don't know if it's the right time to backtrack on this, but there is an interesting movie that was put together, I guess, a decade or so ago, the Obamas actually got involved in funding it. It was called Crip Camp, and it's a camp for people with disability. It's not just about blindness, but disabilities broadly. One of the things that I was struck by as I was watching it is these kids with disabilities are sneaking out at night to go have a beer or maybe two to go find somebody of the opposite gender and, and go beyond having a beer. So in other words, they were doing what kids do in camp. And I thought, you know, back to that being as one of my friends calls me a temporary, temporarily, temporarily able bodied person, a tab. You tend to forget that somebody with disabilities might actually want to do the same things I want to do. You tend to think, well, you know, I we make sure they can get to the store. Ed Henkler: We make sure they have food. We help them learn to cook their food to be safe. Well, that's back to surviving. That's not thriving. That's not the lifestyle anybody dreams of. So it's this idea, let's get it back to where you're doing exactly what you did before you did. You lost your sight. Now maybe you do it differently. Maybe you look for things that are more audio focused than visual focused, all sorts of things like that. But but you're still basically you're with the same friends, doing the same activities you had before. Level four is maybe that woman that learned to surf. Now, she didn't know how to snow ski, but she learned how to water ski. So that was definitely a step up from where she had been. But now you're learning new skills. You're not just doing what you did before, you're doing what any we'll call that normal person does, which is learn new things, see something new you want to do, learn how to do it. So level four is when you're doing that, level five and six are for anybody that really wants to push way beyond that. But it's people that I see that mountain climb. You have the the gentleman who's blind, who teaches people to mountain bike, all all these really crazy things. You don't necessarily have to do something at that extreme. But the point is you just you're now getting up to doing activities that most people sighted or blind, don't do, and therefore you're living as full a life as you would have with or without sight. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. You know, I am an ice skater. And, you know, people would often ask, well, why do you choose to do something like ice skating? I said, it's not just about moving around on the ice. It's it's the smell of the rink, the fresh air on, you know, whipping across my cheeks or through my hair. So I can really empathize with your mom in that way, you know? Wonderful. Ed Henkler: I think it's just so important. And I mentioned this before. I think a lot of people limit themselves. They just. Yeah, I lost my sight. I just I don't get to do that anymore. I can't do that. Yeah. But I also I have a post that talks about caretaker versus caregiver. And I think it's an important distinction. You need a caretaker when you first lose your sight, you need somebody protecting you from every possible bad thing that could happen to you. But as you become comfortable with vision loss, then you need a caregiver. You need somebody there to help you with the things that you need help with. You don't need somebody protecting you and putting you in a bubble. It's the wrong thing to do. It's a very it's a crippling thing to do to somebody. So figuring all that out is important. And I love that. There's I talked a lot about a lot with my mom about this, but the concept of bartering and it can take so many different forms. Let's say you don't have a whole lot of money. Could you find and this is becomes a very specific example, but it's the concept. If you're blind, can you find somebody that's mobility impaired? And you're blind and now you connect on the phone, you get to the store because you have no trouble getting to the store, maybe with a cab or an Uber or whatever it may be, but you get to the store and the person who is mobility impaired contacts you on the phone and tells you what's in front of you. Ed Henkler: They become be my eyes if you want to put in a personalized way. Right. A very specific example. But the idea is be creative. I mentor a young man who is amazing. He's been blind almost since birth. Got a full scholarship to Princeton. He now works in international tax. He's been promoted several times, but he and I have a very candid relationship. And I'll ask him, so what do you not do well at work? And he'll tell me something that maybe is familiar to you. Don? He goes, I have trouble with tables. Excel tables just they just aren't very accessible. The nice thing is there's a group called Inner Search that is working to change that. But the point is, until recently, and maybe still tables, of course maps, different things like that just aren't very accessible. I said, see, I'm sure you can find workarounds. You can find ways to do this work. You'll probably never, at least with today's solutions, do it as effectively that somebody is sighted. So what you need to do is find somebody who sighted. Maybe they help you with the tables, but that's kind of grunt work. It's not. It's not the work that fires our imagination or our brains, but it has to be done. Ed Henkler: So ask them to do the tables for you, but then find something they have to do. That's grunt work and trade off. Back to the bartering. So each of you is doing something that's maybe a little bit distasteful, but now it's playing to your skills rather than your weaknesses. And so it's the probably the best example I know of bartering. There's a woman in Vermont. She was a professor at the University of Vermont and lost her eyesight in the space of an hour or two during due to an anesthesia mistake on a kind of an awful situation. But she went she was put under with the anesthesia cited, and two hours later the surgery was done and her sight was completely gone. Oh gosh. Within one year she was back teaching at the University of Vermont, teaching accounting. So obviously she figured that part out. But she loved to travel and go on vacations, and she had reasonable wealth, maybe not even wealth, but she had enough money to to do things. So if she wanted to go somewhere on vacation, she'd find a friend and pay for their vacation to go with her. So that kind of took care of the unfamiliarity of a place while giving something to the other person. So I think you can go anywhere with this bartering concept, but it's just do what makes sense. Ed Henkler: Don't be stubborn. That's what I was trying to teach the person that I mentor. You're being stubborn. If you do something you're never going to do more effectively than maybe 40%. It's not helping your company. It's really not helping you. So just figure out the right things, the right trade offs, and make sure it's balanced. It has to be balanced, but make sure it's fair to everybody. A lesser example, of course, is taking somebody out to dinner. That is your the person that picks you up to take you to the supermarket or buy the groceries one day. There's just a lot of ways to do it, but you can't do everything yourself. It's naive, I think I shouldn't say it that way. I think I know people who are blind who seem able to do absolutely anything. But I'm going to say they're probably not as efficient as some of the tasks as they might be. Just because. Because you can't be. And that's back to the trade offs. Then just make sure do it in a way that makes sense for everybody. And one of the things you always hear is that people companionship may be the most important gift you can give somebody. So the person's being your companion when they take you shopping, be their companion, take them out to dinner or fix dinner or whatever the case may be. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now your site, your website has become a very trusted, trusting, very trusted starting point for people who need to deal with vision loss. Okay. If a family just received a diagnosis, what are the first three steps that you would want them to take, and how can the blind guide support each step? Ed Henkler: I don't know if this is going to be the right one, two, three order, but I think they're all important. First steps. Yeah. Step one is the first important step is this is a loss. Don't don't kid yourself. It's a loss. And you know about the five stages, the seven stages of grief, the different variations on all that. Yeah. You have to realize that you're going on a journey and it's not going to be an easy one. And you're going to go through all the things the anger, the despair, the all the different stages recognize that's part of it. And you and your caregiver have to recognize that you can't. If you don't, it's probably never going to go, well and everybody takes a different amount of time. You hear people say, you know, you lost your sight six months ago. Come on. At what point are you going to get things together? Well, some people, one of the Paralympians I mentioned lost his sight to an IED. And one year to the day after he lost his sight catastrophically. 100% vision loss. Prosthetic eyes. One year to the day after he lost his sight, he won swimming gold in London at the Paralympics. So. And now he's completed a PhD, won the Ivy League schools. He's won, I think, five golds and 2 or 3 silvers over notification. He's obviously a stunningly capable person who, with what he's done and he adapted quickly and seems to adapt it absolutely 100%. Ed Henkler: But other people maybe take more time. You can't as the caregiver. You can't let them have forever. By the same token, you can't push them faster than they're ready to go. There's got to be that that trade off. So recognize you're going through this whole transition and accept it and move forward, but recognize that you're there. Second, I'm going to say is the choose to thrive because I've written my post on I absolutely believe it's a choice. You can't be satisfied in my book with surviving. You have to know before this journey is done, I'm going to be doing everything I did before I lost my sight and maybe doing more. And whether you use my six levels of thriving or use something else. Make that choice that I'm not satisfied to sit safely in my house or my apartment. I'm going to get back out there. And the third thing, and I've coached so many people in this direction. Find your local association for the blind. They're going to bring you things. The blind guide. And I cannot bring number one. I'm not an expert with O&M or vision rehab, I understand it. You wouldn't you wouldn't engage me to teach the skills, though. I just know an awful lot about a lot of different things at a superficial level. So my site is filled with things that will help somebody thrive. Ed Henkler: And from cooking utensils to to adaptive sports to employment opportunities to all those things. But you want that local help, local expert help. And when people send me that note, the American Printing House for the blind used to have a great state by state listing of associations for the blind and similar organizations. They've kind of stopped doing that, but they still have links that will get you there. And the reason I think it's important. Number one is, you know, Donna, vision loss is very individual. So one person can see another person can't. One person adapts is different from somebody else. It's it's not maybe as unique as autism and the spectrum, but it's pretty unique. And what people can see even with the exact same ocular diagnosis, disease diagnosis varies a lot. You want somebody that can look at that. The next thing that association blind can do? Well, the blind can do is assess you for assistive technology. What are your native tech skills? How well do you see? What type of supports are going to make sense for you? Nothing any of us can do remotely is ever going to be the equivalent of that person in in person, helping you and leading you through it. So you have to find that local resource. Don't don't get lost. Plus that checks off that block for some social interaction and all the other things. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Drawing on your experience as a caregiver to your mom. What do caregivers most often get wrong and how can they promote independence without overhelping? Ed Henkler: I think they have a hard time switching from caretaker to her to caregiver, right? My wife and I both were working at the time. We really didn't have an option to do a whole lot for my mom other than obviously provide support, but we weren't going to be taking her to all the places she needed to go. You can argue whether or not we could or couldn't. It doesn't really matter. We chose that. That just wasn't going to be part of what we could do. We had two young children at the time. It just it was a choice we made. So You have to. You have to get out of that caretaker role. You have to be there initially. Make sure the person is safe. Some of it the best way in my book to make sure the person is safe is to get them with that association for the blind, because they have people who are well trained in all the things that somebody who's blind can do and needs to do and how how they do it. And they're going to tell you when your your loved one is ready and when they're not. So, and maybe you have a refresher or something like that. So Leaving that caretaker role behind. Accepting the fact that, hey, something bad could happen. There could be an accident. They could burn themselves. But you can't put them in a bubble. They need to get out of the bubble and live their life the way. And I think the other thing is, there's a tendency to either not do enough or to do too much. Ed Henkler: Too much is a caretaker role, but it's a hard balance in terms of what you should be doing for somebody, how much you should do. I don't know that this would work for everyone. What I found is when my mom asked me to do something that I knew she could do herself, I would. I would probably way too quickly get irritated. And when she would ask me to do something that I knew, at least in my heart, that I felt she couldn't do, I didn't think twice. I had no trouble helping her. And that became my little gauge for is this something I ought to be pushing her on? And some examples I can do. She probably wasn't great at balancing her checkbook while while cited, and she did not get better when she couldn't see right. I did all of her bills for her. Now, I know there are plenty of people that are blind that do their own bills. I'm not suggesting you can't. But she didn't never learn to use technology. Well, never had a laptop, never had a smartphone. None of those things. The things that often enable somebody to do this type of thing. She just couldn't do it. And we could either have put her money at risk by forcing her to do something she wasn't going to do well or or just do it for her. But then she stayed with us for a while and she'd say, I'm ready for lunch now. I said, great. Have fun. She said. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Ed Henkler: She said, well, but I don't know how to work the microwave. I said, well, I'll show you once, but but you can. You've already used it before. You use it in your own house. Well, I know, but it's easier if you do it. I said, of course it is. But that's not the point. You can do it too. And you need to do it. And it just became that. It was funny and it was not a conscious. I wasn't aware of it initially. It was just somewhere along the way I thought, I will bend over backwards doing things that I know she just really can't do, or just it's going to be so hard. It's not worth it. And I just get so frustrated. She she would. Both of us hate making a call and having an awkward interaction with somebody. You know, maybe you're not happy with a service somebody provided. And she said, oh, I hate making that call. I said, yeah, I do too. Here's the phone. So it just it became an easy way for me to say, you're being fair or you're being unfair. Now, of course, it was my own scale. Maybe I was still being unfair, but I don't really feel I was. And I, I think you drag yourself down as a caregiver when you start trying to do everything for the person you're you're hurting them because you're making them more and more dependent rather than independent. You're not thriving when you're dependent on somebody else and you're hurting yourself. Ed Henkler: Because I know a lot of people that end up almost angry with the in the caregiver role, or they get sick or worn down. There are a lot of negative impacts on the caregiver if the if the relationship gets unbalanced. You have to look out for yourself. And I think it's less true for somebody who's blind. But I know people who have been caregivers to somebody with with ALS or different mobility impairment diseases and that type of thing. You've got to get away. There are a lot of organizations that have kind of respite care arrangement where you can somebody will come in and maybe watch your loved one while you just get the weekend off or get the night off, and I'll hear people say, oh, it's my mom. I can't, can't let her go. Well, you have to, because if you don't, you're going to break down and then nobody's been helped. Now you need help too, and you can't help the person that you love. So I think those are the things I would point to for a caregiver. It's not easy, but it's not easy on the person that lost their sight. It actually reminds me of one other thing I wanted to say. And you can if you go to my site, you can find a post on this also. But somebody I knew from the Association for the blind actually had lost her sight in her 30s, maybe even a little bit earlier, but she she was recently married and she and her husband were very active. Ed Henkler: They played racquetball, they traveled, they liked going to concerts and things like that. And she I forget what her vision loss was caused by, but she lost her sight. And of course, everybody's like, oh, you know, that's such a shame. How can we help you? And the caregiver at some point kind of got frustrated. Like, you know, my life also changed unalterably when this happened. I can still see I don't I don't I won't dismiss that. But this is my partner for life. And she can't do, at least right now, the things that we plan to do so. And yet, if I complain about it now, it sounds pretty whiny. Well, you're still cited. She lost her. She lost her vision. How can you how can you be feeling sorry for yourself? What's human nature? But both of you are impacted. And I think every caregiver relationship, you have to keep that in mind. There are two parties here. There's the one that has the loss, the tangible loss, let's call it. But the other one is loss to us. Whether it's an extra burden on them or it's the loss of a spouse that can no longer do the things that you plan to do. So you you have to take care of yourself and recognize that there are two parties and the whole thing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. If I'm a skeptical employer listening today, what's the business case? Examples, outcomes, even rough costs and returns for hiring someone who's blind? Which accommodations typically deliver the best ROI? Ed Henkler: I don't know that I'm expert in that answer. Donna. What I would say is I think jaws or any screen overlay screen reader typically is what you really need if you have that. And of course, depending on how proprietary the company's software is, you may have to have some adaptation related to that. But I think once you have that the biggest thing that has to happen is very transitory that the person needs to learn their way around the campus? Probably not. Probably works more effectively if somebody kind of shows them the ropes a little bit and shows them the technology that's there, how to get it started, or how to call for help if you need to. There are plenty of people that are sighted that struggle with audiovisual technology and have to call the help desk so you can say, oh, I'm blind, I'm being helpless. Well, no, a lot of people have trouble with that. So yeah, I just think the accommodations are trivial in dollar amount and time commitment. So I think where I would focus instead is back to that business ROI you talk about and the the person I mentor, as I said, has been early promoted three times. So his company absolutely has seen that he's not just equal to other people, he's better than they are. I tell a lot of people the Walgreens story, the Randy Lewis and Walgreens story, which you may be familiar with, but for any of your readers that haven't heard it. Randy has a son with intellectual differences, and when his son, I guess, was approaching his 30s, Randy realized my son's never going to work in meaningful work unless I, as a senior leader, do something to change that. Ed Henkler: So he was a VP, I think, at the time in distribution for Walgreens, and he committed to hiring 10% people with disabilities. Keep in mind, this is broader than vision loss, but 10% people with disabilities into the distribution area. Before all was said and done, the overall company got up near 10% and distribution was at 33.3%. Wow. And you might perhaps you know why he talked to people that worked on vocational rehab and other things like that, helping somebody with disabilities, and that the general feedback he got was, I think you need two typically abled per person with disabilities to make this work. So they got up to one third, one, one out of three people is a person with disabilities. So that's that's a that's a commendable outcome. But what's the business or why is that just altruism. That's where the difference comes in. So Randy measured he he he wasn't doing this just to be altruistic. He wanted to see and his lost time stats for the for his area with the people with disabilities were better. His retention rates were higher, the productivity was higher. Safety was higher. Every measurable statistic was better. It wasn't neutral. It was better with the people with disabilities in as part of the team. And one of the things that I think I love most about it, because it's intangible, it's not a it's not a quantifiable observation. But the manager said, you know what? I love coming to work more. These people are so thrilled to have a job. Ed Henkler: It's just fun to be at work. They want to be here. They're working hard. They love it. So I don't know what that is on a 1 to 10 scale. But the point is they were actually making the workplace more fun. I get then very specific with people who are blind. And as a person who's blind, Donna, you you could say this better than I ever than I ever will. Probably. But for that person who's blind, in fact, I'm not going to reference him by name, but a good shared friend you and I have went in for. And he had had a bunch of phone interviews and they loved it. And they called him in for that final in-person interview. And when he walked in they said, oh, you're blind. Yeah. Why? Because we can't hire you. He said, well, why not? Why not? You're blind. And he said, well, so you like me before I got here on my own. I don't have anybody with me. What? What is it? That. Why can't you hire me? Right? You can't. You're blind and I think I remember that story. To me, it's it's so important for somebody that's blind just to get to the workplace. They've already been innovative, creative, patient, all sorts of great adjectives just to get to work. And doesn't that tell you something? And then I always like the example. And there's actually a I forget the man's name, but it's a true story. I would always say, you know what? I personally like the term differently abled in the US, it's kind of fallen out of favor, as I understand, at least in Europe, it's maybe a little better accepted, but I think it says something. Ed Henkler: So if I'm in a burning building and the power's going out, man, I want the blind person with me because they can lead me out of the building. Nothing's changed. I'm helpless because I'm blind and I don't know how to operate. When I'm blind, they're blind. That's how they always operate. And there is somebody again. The name escapes me. But he was in the Twin Towers when the Twin Towers in nine over 11. Yeah. And he went down something like 70 stairs, 70 flights to get out of there. So somebody with disabilities broadly, not just blindness, encounters challenges that most people don't even consider, they just don't even think about. And they don't complain about them. They, they that's just part of life. I need to figure out how to deal with it and I need to keep going. So I want somebody like that on my team. They're used to problem solving. They're used to being creative. And I always liked it because it's kind of a play on words. But I like to say that person who's blind is going to see your problem differently than the person who's sighted. So take advantage of that, take advantage of that, and go back to those managers that love coming to work better. Just because the people had a good attitude. They love love the fact that somebody was giving them a chance to do something that they easily and readily can do, but 70% don't get a chance to. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The clock is starting to wind down, but I have this question for you. Ed Henkler: Okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Media narratives often shape expectations. You have a page, appeared on podcasts, contributed to Disability Forward Publications, and collaborated with media cooperatives. How do we tell better stories that normalize blindness and set expectations higher? Ed Henkler: When we take somebody like you who has a great podcast and do that. I think this is a point of contention with me, with the Association for the blind, when I was board president, when they were doing employment programs, they always led. In fact, it was the only point they made. Oh, these poor people deserve a chance. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Ed Henkler: And I said, you know, I work at Merck. Merck is not hiring people because they deserve a break. They just aren't. They're a for profit company. That's not how they work. I said, and it's the wrong pitch, because the right pitch is that there's a huge business reason to hire somebody with disabilities or somebody who's blind. There's a very tangible, measurable business reason to do it. So instead of talking about giving somebody a break, talk about, hey, do you want to strengthen your team? Hey, how's your retention? You know, do your employees stay? Oh, they're gone in two years. They said, well, hire that blind person. 70% unemployment. They're not going in two years unless you're toxic. And then that's on you. But if you're a good environment, they're not leaving to us because they can't get another job. And that's a shame. And it's wrong, but it's reality. So they're going to bring so much to your team. You need to focus on that. And then you can, in kind of an afterthought, say, oh, by the way, it's altruistic. It's a nice thing to do for somebody that needs a break. But don't don't lead with that. It has to be the positives. And I think it's just about exposure. When I first went with my mom to the Association for the blind, I found it pretty hard. Ed Henkler: I was seeing these people with with sometimes very visible blindness, whether it be just a milky eyeball or different things like that. And it was, I don't want to say horrifying, but I have to admit it was a pretty visceral reaction. Yeah. And the more I interacted with them, they're no different than me. They just. They can't see. Oh, well. So the more exposure you have. And that's the problem with the 70% unemployment rate. Too many people are like I was. They just haven't interacted with somebody who's blind. They just don't understand what's possible. And I I'm filled with stories, whether it be the Paralympians that we talked about. I know an architect who's blind. I always like to point that out, that, you know, gee, you're an architect. That's a visual task. Yeah. Didn't stop. We know the mountain biker that I mentioned. So it's telling these stories of real people that are doing things that most of us probably. I don't mountain bike. So being able to do it when you're blind is pretty cool, because as a sighted person, I wouldn't try to do it. So it's showing what's possible. And just getting more exposure. And that that goes hand in hand with creating more employment opportunities. Ed Henkler: But and the other thing I kind of tease about this wording, I was taught to use person first language, and I, I struggled initially to try to get person who's blind as opposed to blind person. I finally got it kind of figured out, and I can generally say it pretty easily now. But I laughed because everybody I know who's blind goes, yeah, see that blind dude over there? It's just. But I get it. I'm excited. I maybe ought to be a little more respectful, a little, at least a little more sensitive. Not respectful, sensitive to it. So just show, show people the Paralympics really do that. Show people with disabilities doing things that people without disabilities can't imagine doing. Maybe a final thought if we're at that point, I think we all have disabilities. Yeah, but I think most of us are call it fortunate enough to fall in the center of the bell curve. So if I use myself as an example, before I had laser eye surgery, I couldn't see the top layer on the eye chart. I was blind, but I could put glasses on. Then I was 2020, so I had a disability. That was just accommodation that is readily available. I think I'm a bit face blind. Ed Henkler: I can meet people and I can meet them 3 or 4 times over a week or two, and I still don't remember the name. I don't remember the face, don't recognize it. I don't think I'm purely face blind the way some people are, but I think it's a weakness. I also have a lousy sense of direction. My wife, I always tease, has the girl and the guy Gene, because she remembers all the stores and all the road names, but she also remembers everything else. I don't remember any of it, but I have GPS. Doesn't matter. I can get along just as just as well as she can, if not better, because the GPS will give me a route that she doesn't even know exists. So I think most of us have disabilities, and most of us it doesn't matter because there are accommodations and there are enough of us in that same area that it just doesn't matter. So recognizing that that there's not this 90% of the world that has no disabilities and 10% that does, but rather just where are you and how are the accommodations for what's wrong with you? Not wrong. Wrong way to say it, but I think you know what I mean. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think what strikes me out of listening to you here is thrive versus survive and caretaker versus caregiver. So in our final moments of our interview here, what words of wisdom would you like to impart on our listeners? Ed Henkler: I think you just said it, but don't be satisfied with doing less than you can. And that's that's advice to anyone. Most of us are so capable of so much more than we do. As we age, as you have disabilities, as everything else. It's a big, beautiful world out there. I have as I approach my 70th year, I have so many friends who are sitting in a recliner looking at their iPad, doing nothing else and saying, I'm bored. You know, I used to work. I had a lot to do. I have nothing to do right now. Yeah, I don't get that because I am still working. Maybe not much longer, but I'm still working. My wife and I have busy, rich schedules, whether it be with our kids and our grandkids, or whether it's travel or it's whether DIY in our house or it's going to play golf or it's there's a big, beautiful world out there that you can have a lot of fun with. If you have a lot of wealth, you can you can do a lot of really cool things. If you have no wealth, you can go hike, you can go camp, or you don't be satisfied with sitting in a chair. You don't need to unless of course you have to. But assuming you don't go out there and enjoy this big, wonderful life that is out there and big, wonderful world. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And it has been a pleasure listening to you. And I really think your philosophy is refreshing, recharging and something that everyone should really, really adopt, I mean, I like it. And we gotta be more positive to enjoy what we have. And, you know, stop complaining, but just go forth. So thank you very, very much for being an interviewee on my podcast. And come back anytime, anytime you'd like to spread more of your philosophy. Please do not hesitate to reach out to me. I'd be happy to have you on again. Ed Henkler: It was my pleasure, Donna, and thank you for everything you're doing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very welcome. Let's work together now. Ed Henkler: Sounds perfect. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Take care. And thanks again. Ed Henkler: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Bye. Bye now. Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #58: Interview with Dan Thompson, Founder, Fresh Start of Jacksonville, Illinois | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-11-04-2025/ In this deeply moving episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes longtime friend Dan Thompson, educator, technologist, and community builder, for a candid conversation about hardship, faith, and grit. Dan traces a childhood marked by isolation and abuse, the moment he left home after graduation and survived briefly on the streets, and the steady rebuilding that followed through marriage, service, and a stubborn refusal to accept limits. He recalls fundraising feats and his stint as Illinois's first blind disability adjudicator, where he had to fight for basic accommodations, early lessons in self-advocacy that would shape his life's work. The heart of the episode is Dan's decades at the Illinois School for the Visually Impaired: teaching assistive technology, defining "success" as confidence and practical independence, and tailoring instruction to each student's interests, from podcasting and radio spots to taking apart and rebuilding computers. He shares tactile, hands-on learning (accessible games, field trips, even classroom animals), and explains how his ASPIRE project grew into Fresh Start of Jacksonville, refurbishing computers, coaching on iPhones, and offering one-on-one training so people can thrive at home, school, and work. Dan closes with plainspoken counsel, embrace workarounds, use simple tools like hotkeys and shared links, be patient, help others, and an invitation to his daily "Yes You Can" devotionals, perfectly echoing the episode's throughline of resilience and pay-it-forward hope. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. In July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently, on June 3rd, 2022. I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or in a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's Guest changemaker, whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am pleased to welcome my dear friend Dan Thompson to my remarkable world commentary. Welcome to you, Dan. Dan Thompson: Well, thank you very much for the honor. I'm looking forward to it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And we've known each other for so many years, and we started out many years ago when you came into my life, you were my technology expert on a daily basis. And then now, for the past many years, you are my daily devotion specialist. And I welcome you to my show. Dan Thompson: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, Dan, let's get started. All right. Dan Thompson: All right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Then. You've spoken about facing serious adversity. Adversity at a young age. How did those early experiences shape the educator, technologist and community builder that you have become? Dan Thompson: Well, it gave me great determination to try to become more than my immediate family thought I could and achieve things they thought were not possible. It helped me endure a lot of negativity as I grew up and wanted to do things, and many people said, you can't do that, can't do that. But it made me grow in willpower and determination. Because I was constantly reminded I was retarded and I would end up on public aid and kept in the basement most of my young youth life. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. Dan Thompson: I had some rather severe punishments that would be. Make your skin cringe. Cringe if I told you I didn't behave quite right. And some of the punishments were quite extreme. So I made it my goal when I got out of school. Never to make anyone else go through that kind of thing and not feel sorry for myself. Even though when I was a youth I thought I got mad because everybody else can go outside and you know, when they're home. But I went home for summer, Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving and summers were hell. Sorry for the word, but they I wasn't allowed to have any friends, and it was very isolated. So when I finally became high school, graduated, I actually left home. I walked across the stage with nothing, and my parents very very prejudiced. And I had too many friends that were of not the right color that they thought I should be with. So you can't live with us with these feelings, with these opinions. Be gone. So I had was going to do. When I graduated, I just walked off the stage and lived in the streets for a few weeks. I did things you wouldn't want to do. I ate out of garbage dumps behind gas stations. But and I basked in the basked in the gas station, I think. But I finally got hold of a friend that let me move in with him for a couple months. Dan Thompson: And then I went to Chicago. To the Illinois. What did they call it back then? It was where you got college prep. But they called it i3 wood. Now. That's right. But it had another name back then. And so I got ready to go to college and but still, when I got out of there I was right back in where I started because I didn't have a job, had no money. So I would go to public and they got $200 a month. The rent was 160. So there were some times when I went without food for a couple of weeks. So I went through the hard, hard knocks. But my faith helped me get through a lot of it. And a lot of the people in the apartment building where I was helped me out quite a bit. And then finally I got got married on March 10th, 1972. And this for years now, and one of my saving graces and helped me get out of stuff. And so I, I started out working at workshops, work and even back then when I would, I would work 12 hours a day also selling newspapers sometimes. And when I would walk home, which Yes, that's a good deal. I'm going to take a bus to that. Homeless people approached me and ask me for money. And even though I didn't have much, I could not say no to them. Dan Thompson: So I always knew. I remembered when I was there. I was lucky that was. I don't know how far you want me to go with this, but then I, I finished working in the vending stand program and in Illinois, and there is where I started on a flagpole for for 17 days and 14 hours, I completed let's see, 460 mile walks. And I did a lot of fundraising for different organizations. And then I got finally when I wanted to go to college before the rehabilitation person that had me said I wasn't good enough for college, even though I was a top in my class. But he didn't like me. So then a friend of mine who graduated, who got who was in the same school as me, she got that job and sent me to school, and I graduated on the Dean's list and got put on my diploma. And so I that at that point it was, you know, teaching at a couple different schools and finally ended up at Illinois School for the Visually Impaired. And there I walked across the state of Illinois for the disaster relief fund in New York with A911 and that we raised about 15,000, I think. So and then I had the I think you mentioned somewhere in your questions about fresh start and that kind of thing. Do you want me to wait till you ask me about that? Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's just wait. Let's just take each question. Dan Thompson: I'll try to watch my mouth. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, so let me ask you the next question. Then. You spent decades teaching assistive technology at the Illinois School for the Visually Impaired. From your vantage point, what did success look like for your students and how did you design instruction to get them there? Dan Thompson: Well, my idea was success is to be independent and be willing to try new things and then use that knowledge in their everyday life to be more independent. Now, some people, some of my students would be what you call a slow learner, and people give up on them. But I did not. I found something that they could do that I would usually ask them what their interests are and what they like to do, and I would try to find something that would help stimulate that. Here's a few examples. One guy wanted to be an FBI agent. He still, even now I got in trouble for my principal for telling them they can't do that. You can't say you can't do that. That is. That's ridiculous. Because if you're blind total, you're not going to be an FBI agent and go best people in such. So we worked on keyboarding and stuff where he could be at the desk in a place like that or completing reports for other people and doing that kind of thing. And so he finally did get that kind of a thing. And another person. Was really low, partial, and he wanted to fly airplanes, and he wanted to work on an airplane in an airport. Once again, I told him he can't do that, but the principal said. He can't do it. So really, how are we going to fly an airplane? Well, you say maybe one day he can. I say, forget that. But we got it to where he could be in an airport. And what he really wanted to do was look out the window at the airplanes. Dan Thompson: And so he was a janitor. So he felt happy about that? He felt like he was flying the plane, but he wasn't. So on the brighter end of the scale I would convince the kids how important the computer was an assistive technology was for their success. And somebody tells them they can't do something. Say yes, I can. Give me a chance because I had it happen to my own self. When I went, when I first started applying for jobs, before I had a college education, the minute you walk in, you're blind. You're out. They only give you a chance. And I would try to convince them to let me show you. I can run that machine, or I can do that task. No, that's too dangerous to have you around. So I would try to build a confidence. A confidence in the kids that believe in their self. And don't let people tell you you're not able to do that. But gently convince them, like, do a test, I think. How would you do that? And then use the knowledge you have with computers like making. I tell them how to make podcasts. And I got one guy who really wanted to be on the radio, but he didn't really have the voice for it to be on continuously. So we talked to the local radio station and made commercial podcasts, and several of them got published up there, and I also told them how to take apart their own computer and put it back together again so they wouldn't pay high expenses for repair people to come in with simple things like putting a new hard drive in or putting a new memory in. Dan Thompson: It's a little bit different nowadays, but we got we got 150 computers from Dell to play with. Belongs to us. And so we gave about 125 of those away eventually through my project called all. Bye bye. Bye. How would we do that? Achieving success by providing individuals with recycled equipment that later on to start, because I couldn't get a lawyer that would help me be a non-for-profit. They wanted to charge a 10 to 15, $20,000. Finally, a friend of mine only charged me 1000. And so I got a fresh start started in 2017. So we can do fundraising, but we still do the same thing. We fix computers for people free, and then anybody who wants to learn how to do it themselves, we're still going to show them how to connect everything up. And and I do the same thing with their iPhones. How to do simple stuff. And then you don't have to pay all the costs become expensive to come over there, and they feel a whole lot more confident About themselves and that they can. I can't tell you how many times a sighted person has wondered, like, what are you doing inside that computer and doing that? Take that stuff apart. And it works when you get it back together? Well, I taught most of that, I taught myself. So I don't know if that covered all your wonders there, but if you want more, I'll tell you more. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, when you led the opening doors sessions to families, which stools, stools or strategies can consistently made the biggest difference? Dan Thompson: And why did you want to make a correction? I didn't actually lead open doors. I was one of the teachers in Open Doors. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Dan Thompson: Led that thing. But and we dealt with well, let's say birth to six. But I never saw any of those little ones. Mine was usually 4 to 6. And I would find out what games they liked because they were really into games and toys. And so I would find games that they could play on the computer that had speech. And we would play math games and little history games. And then I also told them at that young age how to take the keyboard off the computer and put it back on again, how the monitor up and, you know, take it off how to hook speakers up. I never had them open up the computer because I would get a little bit too much for them. So we would do, you know, word games and stuff and have a contest. And some of the parents, after they got home, said their children just loved those games. And you want to know where we got them. And so we did provide some laptops. Talked to people that we got free, and I still do that and I can't remember. There was a guy I worked with in Nf-b, Robert or Bobby. I can't remember his last name. We had a deal going where he would send me names of who needed the computer, and so I send it to him and he would give it to them. But it got to where too many of them were out of state, and I didn't know people, so I didn't like that. I just quit doing that program. And I like to keep my activities in Illinois and not all over the US, because there's a lot of people in Illinois that need the need, the need, the different stuff. And so if you get what their interest is and start focusing on it and make it fun and they don't realize they're learning. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And. Dan Thompson: They get in class, first grade or kindergarten. And they can do math, basic math pretty good. And because they play with these games with their moms and dads and we did some other little building projects with Legos and blocks and stuff. And so basically I tried to bring it all down to their level, and I would make sure I found out what are their hobbies or what really makes them interested in stuff. And we would also go out and feed the birds and measure how much they ate every day. And that and in the classroom I had two chinchillas two hedgehogs, two guinea pigs, a rabbit and a squirrel and two parakeets. And then once a year we had 50 chickens. Sometimes patients would have it in their hand. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Dan Thompson: Yeah, and you could hear that chickens pecking through the shell if you put it up by your ear. That was a lot of fun. And they got to where they weren't afraid to touch the animal to pick them up. And that was sort of cool, too. 123. I had a hedgehog once and it was cold, and I took her out to clean the cage, and I laid her up in a windowsill and I forgot her overnight, so she froze solid. Sounds not funny, but I looked on Google and it said if you put it on a heat lamp, she comes out of it. And she did. Just as happy as nothing happened. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Dan Thompson: Yes, the bunny rabbit was trained to come in and out of his cage when he needed to take care of stuff. We didn't let her wander around because we had that. Because a mother got Another got killed. And so we had squirrel. And then one time we had two opossums in the classroom because a mom got killed with seven. So we got them in bottles with them. And then we found out that you had to enlist your teacher. You can't have them. And after two years old, because they have dormant rabies in it. So when they were a year and a half and put them in the woods and gave them a £50 bag of dog food and like, they wouldn't let go of my fingers because I was their mom or dad or whatever. But the kids thought was cool to put them out there. We had about five kids in class then. We always would take a field trip once a week. So that's sort of what I did there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, you served as the first blind disability adjudicator for the state of Illinois. What did that role teach you about systems, fairness, and the realities people encounter when they seek support? Dan Thompson: Well when I got there, they thought they had everything set up for me, but they didn't. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Dan Thompson: Advocate for myself. Really a lot. And so one of the big things was you were supposed to finish or complete 25 folders or people documents a week, and you had to have a reader. I did, because I'm blind. And so first, they weren't providing the readers any parking space. So it cost them $100 a month to be there. So of course they didn't really want to be there. And I had to go to the top of that security Given the administration manager and say, hey, you're going to have me there. You're going to be you got to provide equal ability for these people to help me. So they did that. But then they wanted her or it was him sometimes to do all the typing up the notes on the computer instead of giving me at that time it was window wise. And then they finally got to be jaws. So that took another fight, and it took a lot of courage to go against the administration or the system, as we call it. Because they come up with all kinds of reasons why you you got this. You got a girl, a person that can help it all up. Just let her do that. Well, what am I doing just sitting on my fat butt, flopping the folder over to her, and I'm doing nothing. So I, I've hired to do a job. So let me do my job. And so we got past that. Well, then the there's a person that took care of all the files for floor, and they would bring you files in that you were supposed to deal with that day. Dan Thompson: But everything that files in our right is just slap them on top of the filing cabinet and not tell me they were there. So get them down. And I have my reader tell me who their names were, and I write the names, the sticky stuff, and put the name on the on the file folder. Oh, you thought I committed a mortal sin because my supervisor came in and said, you you marred up the file of a of a person's information. I said, how would I do that? Look right there that those dots. I said, that's my way of reading, and that's how I can get that file out independently and take it over to the reader and have a read me some stuff so I can make determinations. So it was overcoming a lot of that. And then and then the next thing was trying to get a scanner so I could scan some of the stuff that was not good. Reading, poor reading, so we could fix it. So of course we had to jump through hurdles for that. So I only worked there for two years. And then I finally got on at ISB in 1992. But and I, and I reminded students of this, remember, your past goes with you and some people. Don't forget it. As a kid, I was a little troublemaker. And Because that's what brats are when they're little. And I was everywhere I was supposed to be. I used to go through the tunnels underneath the campus. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, boy. Dan Thompson: On top of all the buildings, and one time I climbed up the side of a four story building and sat on the roof, and there the principal to come and get me. But I came down. But anyway, when I applied for a job there that was sort of remembered, and I had 50 interviewed, 50 referrals from other superintendents and people in my career field that taught me and stuff. And I finally had to go to my senator and talk to them. Laura Kent Donahue and told her, look, here's what I got. I have scholar on my diploma and almost straight A's through all my stuff. I have changed, I'm not that boy anymore. So they were forced to be called, and they forced them to hire me. And they were not very nice to me the first year, but then the principal came to me and she says, I want to apologize, you excellent teacher, and I am thankful that we hired you. You're patient and you're good with kids and you and see, back then my kids were low functioning and they would tell me they can't do math. They can't remember they can't do this and that. So I got the idea of doing math in rhyme. And I would, I would make these tapes. I would record them on a they called it. Well, you can record them and hear the music do a lot about the name of them anyway. And some of the kids, even still today that are in their 30s, remember some of those rhymes I did like 50 plus. That's like five plus five is ten. Get yourself a hen hand or something. It's really dumb stuff. And they remember that. And then I did the same thing with history facts. And a couple kids were told or their parents told me they had no long term memory. So we would do poems every Christmas and Thanksgiving program and Easter. And those kids remembered that stuff, and I got them on tape with music in the background. Dan Thompson: And they were so proud of themselves for doing that. Now of course the higher functions have a lot more. I had them do a lot more challenging things. We had math battles and history quest and and they got awards for that. But I also had them keep track of the birds outside as far as how much we fed them every day and which birds. I'm like birds. I'm a birder, I guess you call it. And we would take field trips to places in town, like the fluid plant to Coca-Cola and Pepsi plant and places where they might wonder how how those things are made or what all happened. And we had a great mobility teacher administrator. We would go out in fields and show them how they cut the corn and pull the beans off the stalk and all that kind of stuff. And I also encouraged them when we walk downtown when they're old enough to do that. Always listen ahead of yourself, because you never know what's going to pull in front of you on, on the sidewalk. And a friend of mine he didn't listen quite well. He was he was my age, and he was a switchboard operator. He doesn't listen, but he walked behind a truck and backed over him and broke his legs. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ouch. Dan Thompson: Yeah, but he. So now he has a little trouble in his legs. He's all right now. He's as old as I am. But I share that with him. I said you gotta. And so sometimes we just stand still. I said, what do you hear? First they will say cars. I said, what else? Then they will start saying the names of birds. Or I heard somebody yell to somebody down the sidewalk. You always have to be open. If you're going to be a blind person or low vision. Low vision don't always see everything either partially sighted. So you got to keep all your environmental awareness going all the time. Dan Thompson: So I wanted to have them increase their confidence in independent travel and just independence all around. So I guess I learned a lot about that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Help listeners to understand your pedagogy when a student or an adult comes to you with a goal school, work or independent living? How do you assess needs and build a practical training path? Path. Sorry. Dan Thompson: Well, here's what I do. I start with the very lowest people I used to work with. Low functioning that they could. They talk really well, but they were terrible at math, and they would not really get much higher than eighth grade in school. But I would show them things like how to make coffee, put toast in the toaster and do that, and how to fry an egg without being burned or hurt with them. You know that you can do that ways. And the microwave is a good idea. And we even mopped the plaster and floor, but we did it on our hands and knees because as a person, that's what you'd rather do. If you want to make sure you get everything clean, totally blind. Unless you have a really good layout of your surroundings. But I usually do it on my hands and knees and and then we would see what kind of foods they like and where they were hoping to live when they got to school. And they said, well, with mom and Dad, I said, have you heard of an independent living center? Have you ever heard of. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Dan Thompson: Like that. And then they said they would tell their parents about that, and I would invite the parents in to let them see their child is not going to catch on fire if he goes by a stove. You can put your hand over the burner to feel the flame. You know, if you have a pan on it, you can get an idea where it is. And judge where you are there. And there's all kinds of ways to cook and not get hurt. And we showed them how to make coffee because a lot of them love coffee. And then we made simple meals like macaroni and cheese and hot dogs and stuff. And if we ever had a where we had to use a recipe book that had a recipe with more than one thing in it, we would just take it one at a time. And those who couldn't read Braille. And then I had back then, cassettes. But once we got the Victor streams use those. I had a lot of cookbooks, simple recipes that they could listen to. Do that step, stop the picture screen and start it and do that step. And then there's a few really good nowadays. Really good people online. This one called cooking in the dark. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes. Dan Thompson: And there's a couple others a lonely blind chap with Desiree. Renee is another one. And then double tap is another really good one. Anyway, so those weren't available back then. So I would make podcasts and recordings on the Victor String for them to go step by step, and we'd have them prepare lunch and it might. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Be. Dan Thompson: Sandwiches being very jolly. Or if we had hamburgers we would just put hamburger in the pan. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And. Dan Thompson: No one, none of it. If you just touch the top of hamburger and press on it, you can tell if it's getting done without having to worry about burning your finger. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Dan Thompson: So it's all kinds of those things I've learned through life that I teach them mostly not to be afraid. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Aid. Dan Thompson: Of stove or hot water or coffee pots. And another thing is not to be afraid about plugging stuff in. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Dan Thompson: Getting the prongs right. I said it's not going to shock you. Put it right in there. And some of the parents couldn't believe their students could plug a plug a radio in or a pod in or whatever. They were afraid of them getting burnt. And the biggest hurdle to overcome is like, if you have something you put in the oven to bake and how the get the baked potato out of there. So you just put a glove on and reach in there and, and you can squeeze it to tell if it's done. Actually that's an example. But so as far as how to make them be independent, I just wouldn't do things like they wanted to do, and I did them with them to show it can be done. And I also made sure I involve the parents so they can see their child is not going to break and fall down and fall apart and suddenly really change their viewpoint since that. Dan Thompson: There you go. I start with the smallest and work up the more difficult stuff. That's what you really should do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Now you founded an organization called aspire which involved evolved into the fresh start of Jacksonville. Okay. To devices and to provide one on one training. What problems were you trying to solve? And how does your model actually work from intake to following up. Dan Thompson: Here's what we do. Way back then. Yeah. First time I thought about doing this is when my superintendent said, hey, the department of what was it? Bureau of Blind Services, I think back then, has a whole bunch of equipment they're getting rid of that they bought through insurance money. And so we have the freedom to go over there and get some of that. So I think. Yeah. So I got some inboxes and various other stuff and brought it back to school. But in the meantime, I found out about the state warehouse. And the state warehouse has all kinds of technology and computers, and I mean, just anything, the various institutions that are not being used. And I said, how can I get those computers and stuff that a blind person could use? Well, you got to be an administrator. Well, I wasn't, so I couldn't do that. So I thought, well, what if I put an ad in the paper saying, I would like to have gently used computers and equipment refurbished to provide individuals with recycled equipment. That's where I got providing individuals with Freecycle, providing individuals with recycled equipment to improve their independence. I can't remember. Not all fit into that whole aspire word. And so once I bought me a truckload of old computers and a large amount of it couldn't be used, but I got out of about 30, I got five. Dan Thompson: That's all right. The rest I put through recycling. And then Boeing heard about me, and so they gave the school. They had to give it to a facility to get the tax credit. They gave the school 150 Dell computers took those and put them in the basement of one of the dorms. And we would use them in the classroom to show the kids. I said they had to and this is usually seventh grade and up in order to make it in this little computer class that just got started, you have to be able to take everything out of this computer and put it back in and make it run. And that was a goal. And they did. But see, then the the memory sticks came out nicely and it was easy to find ports on the motherboard to connect stuff, whereas now it's a little bit more sophisticated. I can still hook up a motherboard, but sometimes it's hard to hook those cables in the right places. Because they have they're not marked differently and they're not. And then the memory is a lot different. I still do it, but it takes me a little while, but then some of my kids still remember. Yeah. He told us you're not leaving unless you can put one of these together. So we provided about 500 people over the years. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Dan Thompson: Computers and laptops. And then we had to put a new CD burner. And that's now, unfortunately, with any program, non-for-profit or something like that, you have lots of what I want to use users that take advantage of the program. I always told them you can't sell the equipment, but you can bring it back and I'll fix it for free. But we had about, I'd say ten people sell the equipment after we fixed it for them. And I found out about it in most cases through the grapevine. And they didn't. We didn't help them anymore. And but most of them were about 10 or 15 people made it through college by our, through our computers because the state wouldn't buy them the equipment. They hadn't proved themselves, they said. And then some of them, if you don't have an ID, which is a plan for career and all that kind of stuff and state they won't buy you equipment. So in those cases we bought well, had to buy we repaired computers for people so they could be they could do at home typing work at home jobs. And so some of them got that, and then some of them got hired like in the state because they were able to learn and practice on their computer equipment at home. Dan Thompson: And could prove themselves when they want to do whatever efficiency tests they had to take to get the job. And one of those girls still worked in Springfield in the mailing department, I think, for a Social Security disability. And there's a couple others like that. And another two of my other students worked for the military in Rockford. And they fill out contracts for the military, and, and those jobs are only reserved for blind people. Isn't that cool? Yeah, that's just for them. So we have four, three of them there. So getting this stuff in their hands in their homes so they can practice when they need to. That's good. Now, when it got to where we had Victor streams and stuff, I had to raise money to buy that. Some of those things because doors within the Department of Rehabilitation Services. I think they changed their name again. So we would buy them and told them they can't sell them if they need them, bring them back to me, and some of them are still using them ten years later. And we just got done buying three of the new Victor stream threes. And then I still work with people on the new iPhone 16 and stuff. They try to do too much at once. I'm working with right now who's lost a lot of her vision, and she can't learn the iPhone, but she's making it way too hard. And and the people who are teaching her are teaching her really complicated stuff, which is not necessary, because you can do almost everything with that one button on the side or by talking to it. Yeah. So anyway I go on to do go into tangents. Sorry. So there's that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, technology has really come a very long way from the days of the pocket guide and the stylus. Now we have iPhones and everything. You know, I clock is starting to run down, but I wanted to ask your opinion on this. What would what words of wisdom would you give to today's generation? Should they be trying harder? Should they? What should they be doing? Should they be looking for workarounds? Should they? What? Tell me, in your opinion, what words of wisdom would you want to leave with them? Dan Thompson: Well, I think they should try to look for workarounds and don't give up and have everybody do things for them. But also, I like to think that God put us here not just to see each other, but to see each other. At least to try to help others when we can help and share our knowledge. And if if we can help somebody financially do it. And not to be afraid of trying new things just because they look scary. One, two simple things I was just thinking about one thing people don't think about is writing hotkeys for your computer. So you only have to press 1 or 2 keys to get a big function going. That's very, very simple. And another one that people always ask me I'll look only lets you send a 20 megapixel 20 Meg file. How do I send something bigger? Well, I told them and is it my handout? I sent you how to take a big file and put it in Dropbox and take that link, paste it into an email. Boom, it's gone. So you can you can still email big stuff even though outlook says no. So I tell people, if it sounds scary, that's all right. Dan Thompson: Just try it out and see. You might find out it's not as scary as you think. And some people. Here's a good example. I have one girl I know who teaches the iPhone or iDevices, but she's totally blind. But she makes it very difficult and has them do all kinds of tapping. They're doing this and that. But with the iPhone's new one, I don't even go through all that. I show them how you can do all of it. If you're blind with voiceover, with barely even touching your phone, you can just press one button and do it. And I'm dealing with that with a 70 year old girl right now that was going to give up on iPhones, but now she's not. So I guess my last would be patience with each other. Be willing to listen and hear their side of it, and then try to find some halfway mark halfway idea that can make them feel much more independent. And I always give my students lots of compliments about how they are. They're really doing great and everything, and that really builds their confidence and beliefs that they can do it as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have been an inspiration to me personally. And, you know, I've heard your your personal story over and over. And each time I hear your story, it really it really tugs at my heartstrings. And I think, you know, you are an inspiration to anybody who says, well, I can't do it. I'm going to give up. You did not give up. And you are here today to show us the path. That I want to thank you for that. Dan Thompson: Autobiography, that little biography I sent you or or my written questions, answers to the other thing with anybody you want. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So, you know, I don't know what else to say. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And, you know, if ever you wanted to come back and talk to me about more of your inspirational stories, please let me know. Dan Thompson: And I'd like to also mention I have a devotion called devotion. Yes you can. Anybody can subscribe to. Yeah. And is it all right if I check my email? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Go ahead. Dan Thompson: My email is D Thompson. Wait a minute. I remember my email first. Dmc DMC 031073 at gmail.com DMC. Is that my initials? And then the the daisies when we got married. 031073 at gmail.com. And then just say you want to subscribe to Fresh Start devotional. I send one out every day except Saturday, and I have a prayer list that I send out every Friday. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I see that. Yep. Dan Thompson: Names only. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, then it was a pleasure. And I want to thank you again. And hey, if ever you wanted to come back, let me know, okay? Dan Thompson: Yeah. Thank you for all your friendship and knowing you all these years. Talk to you later. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You take care now. Bye bye. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #57: Interview with Ian White, President, CCB Toronto Visionaries, | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-11-03-2025/ In this insightful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes community builder Ian White to trace his path from congenital glaucoma and a thriving career in corporate interior design to sudden vision loss in his early 40s, and the reinvention that followed through community, advocacy, and leadership. White explains how a small peer circle became the CCB Toronto Visionaries, now ~170 strong, built to break isolation through relaxed social spaces and rich information-sharing, and he paints an "audio picture" of their White Cane Week Experience Expo, a three-part trade show, forum, and community dinner designed to help people "discover what's possible." The conversation turns practical and policy-minded: Ian spotlights the grassroots Get Together with Technology (GTT) meetups, where novices and power users troubleshoot together; shares survey findings that 76% of respondents name the smartphone as their most essential assistive tool and describes how smart glasses paired to phones are becoming hands-free game-changers; and unpacks Deloitte's headline figure that vision loss costs Canada ~$33B annually, with ~$15B in health care and >$17B in lost well-being/productivity, underscoring prevention, early diagnosis, and the need to tackle social costs head-on. He closes with ongoing advocacy to modernize Ontario's Assistive Devices Program (including cane funding) and federal work around Bill C-284, Canada's national eye-care strategy. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its website accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Ian White, welcome to my remarkable World commentary, and it is such a privilege and a pleasure to have you with us. Ian White: Thank you so much for inviting me. This is such an honor. Great to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am just so tickled that you're here because, you know, we've known each other for quite a few years, and we've you. Ian White: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, we've cooperated on a lot of different things. You let me be Mrs. Claus at the Christmas dinners. Ian White: A highlight, I must say. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It was. It was great. It was. Ian White: Great fun. It was a lot of fun. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And then we did the boat cruises and we did other things. So, you know, you have done so much for us, our community, and you have done a lot for the visionaries as well. So welcome aboard. Ian White: Thanks so much. As I said, it's such a great honor to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. So, Ian, to set the stage for our listeners, would you share your journey with Vision Loss and how you pivoted it from a career in interior design to building one of the most active vision loss communities in Canada? Ian White: Okay brief, brief bio on me. So basically, I was born with congenital glaucoma. Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Like me? Ian White: Yeah, yeah. And there are a bunch of us out there. So as an infant, I had increased intraocular pressure, and it was the diagnosis basically was that I would be blind by the time I was one year old. And so my parents acted very quickly and got me into some experimental surgery that actually decreased the pressures, stabilized them, and basically saved my vision. So although I grew up quite myopic, I had usable vision and basically grew up sighted, so went through the regular school system, went through the regular post-secondary education system. Got onto a career path. I remember as a kid sitting in my ophthalmologist's office and my parents asked the question which is like, are there are there things that we should guide him away from? There are the things that we should steer him away from because of his vision. And I, I don't know how I remember this as a as a kid. I must have been 5 or 6 years old. And I remember my ophthalmologist saying, let him tell you what he can do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Ian White: That was brilliant advice. And that's exactly what my parents did for me. They allowed me to set the stage and make choices. One of the things that was part of my early life was a passion for things. Visual. Oddly enough I was deeply interested in art and architecture and reading and traveling and a whole bunch of other things that were utterly dependent on vision, including my choice of career. I ended up going into interior design into the corporate sector. So I was I was a designer who was working on large corporate office space, doing multi-floor projects in major buildings all over the country, working for major institutions, banks, financial institutions, insurance companies, all that kind of thing. Up until I was about 40 late 30s, early 40s. And at that point I started developing cataracts. So we did a very straightforward cataract surgery. It was successful, but because of the damage that had been done to my eyes very early on in my trajectory the systems in my eye were not as strong as they should have been to withstand surgery. And so there were a series of, of sort of knock on effects from that. And which ultimately resulted in a whole raft of other problems that essentially rendered me with only light perception in one eye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Ian White: Okay, so at the age of 40 or so I went from a senior project manager with one of Canada's top corporate design firms husband, father, architecture enthusiast to being a blind guy. And I honestly don't know. I had no idea what to do with that. Oh, gosh, I didn't I didn't know any blind people. I had no idea what was possible for me. I had imbibed over my sighted trajectory all of the biases and stereotypes that are common in our socialization that people with disabilities are broken, that they're incapable, that they can't, can't, can't. And that was how I was viewing myself through that transition period. And it was really only through getting connected with blindness related organizations and ultimately with the blind community, that I realized that the possibilities are endless. The only thing wrong with me is that I don't see the way most people do. Everything. Everything else is just fine. Thank you. So so I ended up doing some experimental adventures in post-secondary education again. I actually completed a second degree and got involved as a volunteer with organizations like the Cnib. Was a peer mentor coming out of their New Beginnings program, which spawned a peer support group that came off the back end of one of those groups. And that was just an opportunity to connect with other blind people on a regular basis, talk about what mattered to them. Ian White: Explore possibilities with them and really push myself to learn about. What was out there and how to get connected with it. That spun in 2013 into Forming a chapter under the Canadian Council of the blind, which is a national registered charity with about. I think they have about 75 or 80 chapters across the country. And these chapters are all locally organized and volunteer driven. So it was an opportunity for us to sort of get more formally organized and, and really open up to the blind community here in Toronto, where I live. We grew that chapter from an initial membership of about 20 people. We now have about 170 regular members and went from doing a single two hour meeting once a month to I think there are about a dozen and a half Regular activities that we do through the month. And then on top of that, we do a number of special events. We do boat cruises, we do the White Cane, we Experience Expo, which we'll talk about a little later. We do you know, going out to restaurants and cultural institutions and exploring those and it's become quite a thing, which has been a. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It has. Ian White: So that's, that's kind of the, the trajectory. And it's put me into a place where I can, you know, I've sort of gone from my past life as a corporate interior designer through a very dark period where I had no idea what to make of myself and had to reinvent my identity, to now seeing myself as more of a community leader and an advocate. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And a lot more than that, if I should say, I am absolutely impressed by your story. Ian White: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So you helped to grow a peer support circle into the CCB? Toronto visionaries. What problem were you trying to solve at the beginning? And how has the chapter's mission of breaking isolation evolved over the years? Ian White: So one of the things that I recognized very early on in my career as a blind person is that in Toronto, particularly, we are we are blessed with an amazing array of possibilities, whether it's recreational groups, service providers you know, places where you can get test and train on assistive tech. There's a great, you know public transit system here so you can get around there are all kinds of of activities that are available to the blind community. But what I realized really early on was that the information was all sort of siloed. It was, you know, these people would go tandem cycling, but these people didn't know that there was also a bowling group, or there was also a downhill skiing group. Do you know what I mean? Like that? Yes. And the skiing group didn't know about the tandem cyclers. So one of the things that that through this sort of discovering what was available and what was possible I came to realize that that there was a whole bunch of information out there and nobody knew how to get at it. Right. So, so the idea initially was really just to share information with the group that we had. It started out as a very small group, as I said. But what was interesting about it was the curiosity, especially for people who are relatively new to vision loss and really didn't know what was possible, right? Right. They would eagerly seek out this information. And if we could bring it together in a, in a sort of a relaxed social setting and just, you know, throw it out there and say, hey, look, this is a thing that blind people do and this is how you do it. And we get the, you know, the people who were organizing that activity in to talk about it and how much fun it is and where you go to get it and how much it costs, and yada, yada, yada. Ian White: And we found that people really responded to that. And I think the other thing that that was really vital was that we weren't a service provider, we weren't a training service. We weren't a. We were just an opportunity for people to get together and be social with each other, you know, and to have fun. Because a lot of the the programs that were on deck at the time that we were getting started were We're very much, you know objective delivery, kind of measured programs. They were you know, of a set length you'd go for 6 or 8 weeks, you'd have certain objectives in terms of what you were supposed to learn. You had to demonstrate that you learned them, and then they'd cut you loose. Then what do you do? So what we realized pretty early on was that in order to create spaces for people to come together and absorb all this information that we were sharing, the easiest way to do that was just exactly that. It was to create little social spaces, right? Perhaps with an excuse whether it's a, you know, a formal meeting or whether it's at a pub or whether it's going out to on a tour of a, you know, a venue or something. But what happens when you bring blind people together? And I'm sure this is true of most disability groups. What ends up happening is that the blindness piece just sort of disappears and people engage with each other just as people. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Ian White: Right. And you can suddenly talk about, you know, the things that you're struggling with or the frustrations you're having because you're talking to people who get it. You know, you're talking to others who have already been down that road, have probably already solved the problem that you're struggling with, and can give you some really great advice on how to take next steps. And that happens just casually in a social environment. And so that's what we tried to create was a series of opportunities for people to come together and just share information with each other, share questions, share frustrations, share their concerns, talk about what works, what doesn't. And and we found that was a really powerful formula. So I think in terms of what we were able to create, it sort of comes in two two flavors. One was you just create space for those social opportunities to happen so people can get together and have some fun with other people who they don't have to explain themselves to. You know, you don't have to apologize for being blind. Everybody in the room is blind. If somebody knocks over a drink, everybody goes, yeah, okay, where are the paper towels? You know, it's not a big deal, right? Right. And and the other piece of it was the information sharing piece. So one of the things that I found particularly fascinating about being one of the instigators of this whole affair was just being able to exercise my curiosity about what was possible. You know, what's out there? What what are people willing to do to to meet us halfway and, you know, afford us the kind of opportunity that is meaningful for for people who aren't really sure what's possible, what's available and what's accessible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Ian White: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Congratulations on the June Callwood Award for your outstanding achievement award. And the visionary and the visionaries ten year milestone. Now, what do those recognitions say about the model you've built, and what were the turning points that made it work? Ian White: I think really it was really just about creating space for people and, and engaging them as people instead of engaging them as blind people. Being, being do you know what I mean, though? Like being curious about them as people. What are your interests? What do you like to do? What are you what would you rather be doing? You know, what kind of restaurants do you like? What kind of activities do you do you love to get involved with? What do you do for work? You know and, and just having the opportunity to engage with a whole range of people because, as you know, like eye disease and blindness don't really care where you're from or what you do for a living. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, they don't discriminate. Ian White: They really don't. And so you get this really fascinating mix of people in a room who are coming from all kinds of different backgrounds, all kinds of different socioeconomic strata all kinds of education levels. And it's fascinating to just dive in and go, okay, so this is me. Who are you? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. Yeah. Ian White: It's a lot of fun. And, and I think the opportunity for us to learn from each other because, as I said, you know, one of the things that was huge for me was getting connected with people who had been blind for a while, had already been down that road, you know, and knew what I was struggling with and could help me guide me on my next steps along my journey. But really, I think the fundamental thing was the recognition for social engagement. You know, it was the it was the opportunity for people to get together. No pressure. You know, you're not you're not under the gun. You're not being measured. You're just coming together to have some fun with other people who get it. And to just explore a wide variety of options and access a whole raft of, of information about what's possible. The chapter itself grew pretty organically, actually. Because we started very small and with very few resources. It took a while to sort of build capacity, but you know, as ideas came up, we would explore them. We would see what we could do. I became really shameless about asking for stuff. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know that, yeah. Ian White: Whether, you know, whether it was a free room rental or, you know, could could we organize something with a caterer where we're just paying them for their food costs, and maybe they're donating their time, like all these kinds of things that would really reduce the cost of of getting us off the ground. And we were very fortunate because we encountered a number of very generous donors who came forward with some financial resources. And and so the the more resources we had, the more people got involved. The more volunteers we engaged, the more financial backing we had, the the greater the reach we could have. And so that allowed us to really branch out and explore a whole bunch of stuff that that initially would have been beyond our means. But but yeah, I always operated on the basic theory of, you know, if you don't ask, you won't get. So you must ask. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ask and you shall receive. Yeah. Ian White: Yeah. Exactly. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So for listeners who've never attended and I'm one of those paint an audio picture of the White Cane Week. It's a it's an experience. It's an expo. Okay. Ian White: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What happens there? What makes it unique? And what kind of real world outcomes have you seen? Ian White: So this this whole idea was generated out of this notion of wanting to share as much information as possible about what was available in the Toronto area for for people in the blind community. And so the the idea was basically like a trade show. But it comes in sort of three parts, and each part sort of feeds into three different aspects of what we do. So initially the expo itself, it's essentially a trade show. It's we gather together. I think we've had between sort of 35 and 50 exhibitors, depending on the year, who will set up a table and just be available to either show their products or describe their services, or help people get connected or have an experience. And all of these organizations are in some way supporting the blind community. So we would have people come together from advocacy, from education, from workplace and employment from service providers assistive technology vendors clubs, sports groups everything and anything like the Toronto Public Library would come and talk about their accessible services. The TTC would be there to talk about Wheel-trans and its services, and how they're implementing accessibility throughout the TTC network, the Toronto transit community. So it was it was really a wide range of different kinds of organizations, but all of which sort of feed into this whole experience of living with vision loss. And the whole idea of it was to bring together all this information in one place at one time. So you as an individual could go in and just discover, right? Just discover what's available and see possibilities that you might not have thought were possible. I remember having a conversation at the very first expo we did with a guy from an organization called the Ice Owls, which is a blind hockey team. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I know them. So. Ian White: So these guys, these guys are talk about fearless. These guys are absolutely fearless. They are blind and visually impaired hockey players. And they compete both locally and nationally. And they go at speed on ice, on blades after a puck that is filled with sort of nuts and bolts and a bunch of things that make it rattle as it moves. So they can track it. And I don't know how they do it. I have no idea. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know how they do it. They belted me across the the ice rink one time. Ian White: Oh, did they really? Ian White: Yeah. Okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. So keep on. Ian White: Going. Ian White: No, I you know, it's it's one of those things like, I've, I've met so many people through this journey who have just blown my mind. I've talked to people who have, you know, run the Boston Marathon twice. I know people who have crewed on a tall ship in the South Pacific for five months. I know, I know a guy whose favorite activity is to go scuba diving and explore sunken wrecks, all totally blind. And once you've met people like that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Ian White: You sort of look at yourself and go you know, maybe getting to the corner store is doable. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. Ian White: You know. Yeah. Ian White: So I want to talk about the other two parts. So that's the the expo. It's just an opportunity to come in and smorgasbord your brains out and and discover the second part is the forum. So the forum is basically a panel discussion, and this is sort of the information sharing another aspect of the information sharing piece. So what we would do is we would bring together a panel of experts on a particular subject or topic and have them sort of give us a state of the nation, like what's going on in assistive tech, what's going on in, you know government advocacy, what's going on in the latest sort of medical research, what's going on in whatever aspect it is that has to do with, you know, something important about living with vision loss and something that that is important to the community to to know and understand. And we would do that both in person and online, so that people who couldn't make it down to the show could also get that information. And then the third piece was a social dinner. And that really speaks to the social having fun piece of, of of what we do. And it was really just an opportunity to say thank you to the community to celebrate you know, who we are and what we do in all its crazy diversity and just enjoy each other's company and have fun for an evening. So so that was that sort of gives you a snapshot of what the expo is all about, right? I think it's unique because of the breadth of the exhibitors, the the range of things that were present there that you could explore. And and I think just allowing attendees to come away better informed than they were before, just having a little more information about what's out there and what's possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wonderful. Now you co-founded the Toronto, US getting together with technology. What gap does it fill between formal training and everyday life? And can you share a concrete example of someone's tech problem that the group helped to solve? Ian White: Yeah. The Get Together with technology program is an amazing program. It's actually a national program that was initiated by a lady named Kim Kilpatrick in Ottawa. Probably what 12, 15 years ago. And it was supported by the ECB, the Canadian Council of the blind and rolled out through a number of groups that operate across the country. I was intrigued by this. And with a couple of co-conspirators, set up the Toronto incarnation of it. And really, the idea here, which is kind of unique, is, again, it's very grassroots, very sort of bottom up organized. So what it essentially is, is it's a group of assistive technology users at various levels, from absolute novice to absolute expert. You bring them together in a room and you just cut them loose and let them talk. And what ends up happening there is that a lot of information gets shared about what technology is out there, where you can get it, what it costs, how to get trained on it, tips and tricks about how to use it, and troubleshooting. If if somebody's got a piece of tech and they don't, they they get stuck on something. You know, whether it's, trying to figure out how to use a particular app or, you know, even just getting the accessibility features on your smartphone set up properly. There's a forum where you can bring those questions to a group and just throw it out and say, has anybody encountered this problem? And if you have, do you have any solutions for it? And you'd be amazed how many people go, yeah, yeah, I got that. Ian White: And so it's a real sort of opportunity to again share information, bring in people who are connected to the assistive technology space and have them talk about a particular product or a line of products or, or you know training services that are available. And and really just give people the opportunity to share the knowledge that they possess you know there are people who are really, really good at assistive tech and there are people who really struggle with it. So it's great to be able to say, you know, there are all these tools out there that blind people can use, but if you're one of those people who is really technophobic or you don't, you just your mind doesn't work in a way that allows you to grasp the how to easily. Then it's really, really helpful to be able to get into a space and not feel embarrassed about asking those simple questions about how to how to use it better. Because every time you do, every time you, you sort of gain a piece of information about how to use an assistive tool, you open your world up a little bit further and you reclaim a little of your independence. Right? And I think that's the real power of the DTT groups. It's not a fixed term training session. It's it's really open, really dynamic. And and allows people to explore assistive tech sort of at their own pace. Ian White: Yeah. Wow. Ian White: Sorry. Sorry. Just before you. Before you jump on, I wanted to mention you asked about whether I had seen any particular instances of of people's lives being opened up that way. I think there are a couple of things. And I'm going to speak in sort of general terms initially, but I'll drill down a little bit. One of the things that was discovered during a survey we did a few years ago looking for information on people's experiences with the assistive device program in Ontario. Ian White: One of the things one of the questions we asked was, what is your most powerful, most necessary assistive tool? Ian White: 76% of people said the smartphone. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Really? I'm not surprised. Ian White: Yeah, I'm not either. Ian White: And a lot of that is because Smartphones allow you to connect to an entire digital world using accessibility features that are baked into the device. Ian White: Right? Ian White: And then it acts as a platform for all the tools that have been specifically designed to run on that platform. So there are all kinds of applications and programs that are specifically designed to help blind people that will only run on a smartphone. So getting to grips with a smartphone is a huge game changer for a lot of people. Even just in terms of being able to connect and communicate with family, you know, friends, your social network, your, you know your employment network and so many of the tools are, are are really great. Whether it's for navigation or optical character recognition or image description. These are all tools that are specifically designed to run on a smartphone. Combined with that, one of the recent things that everybody's already talking about and is becoming a real game changer in the marketplace is smart glasses. Ian White: Paired. Ian White: Paired to your smartphone. And what that allows you to do is basically hands free, have access to an AI assistant that can do everything from image description to connect you to an agent who can assist you. It can, you know, there's just so many applications that are directly relevant to overcoming visual barriers that we encounter every day. And there's something you can wear on your head paired to your smartphone. And it's so simple and so easy. And, and people have just raved about how useful these tools are. Ian White: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you, Steve Jobs. A. Ian White: Amen, brother. Ian White: Yeah. Ian White: I mean you know, between Apple and Android. Yeah, they've they've moved the world for, for people with visual disabilities. Absolutely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: By leaps and bounds. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Ian White: Yeah yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you often point people to the Deloitte cost of vision loss in Canada study. And especially you know to its executive summary. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What are the headline numbers that listeners should know. And what does the report project if nothing changes by 2050. Ian White: So this was a study that was undertaken in I think 2021 by a consortium of of groups led by research professional doctor Keith Gordon. And basically it was a study that was sort of a reprise of one that had been done many, many years ago in around 2007, hadn't been updated since. And we know that the population has grown society has changed. The health care system has changed. There are all kinds of things that were no longer relevant from the 2007 study. So the idea was to to take a really hard look at, okay, what are the actual impacts of vision loss on Canadian society and what can be associated with those impacts? And and why should we be concerned about that? Well, what the study basically showed was that the cost of vision loss in Canada annually is about $33 billion, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Ian White: That's why we should take it seriously. Ian White: Right now. Ian White: Of that 33 billion over 15 billion of it is direct healthcare costs. So that's going to your optician, going to your optometrist getting treatment. And, you know, if you have surgery or if you have lasers, if you have, you know injections, whatever it is that they're doing to, to treat you in a healthcare setting. Those are the costs that are captured under that 15 billion. Then the other half and actually the larger half was over $17 billion in what are called lost well-being or lost productivity costs. And what that means is, once you encounter vision loss things like your ability to continue earning becomes negatively impacted. Your ability to support your family becomes negatively impacted. Your social relationships and community networks degrade because people with disabilities, and particularly vision disabilities, tend to isolate and be caused by family. And taken care of. Because, again, unless you pursue an active program of of building your independence back and sort of engaging with your blindness in a way that that sort of masters it and gets you back out into community. There's a tendency for people to sort of withdraw and not participate. So there are negative impacts on family and friends and social networks. There are negative impacts on your participation in everything from economics to education to employment to, you know, paying your taxes. And these are all sort of negative impacts that fall out of living with blindness. They also ramify into future negative health impacts. So people with vision loss are more likely to die earlier than sighted people. They're more. Ian White: Likely. Ian White: They're more likely to have falls, which put them in hospital. Right? They're more likely to be referred earlier than they normally would be to a home care setting. Ian White: Or a, you know, a formal senior's residence or support facility. They are much more likely to make mistakes around prescriptions and get into trouble that way. Ian White: I did. Ian White: You know, it what happens to a lot of us? Ian White: Yes. Ian White: Because, you know, how do you overcome the barrier of trying to read the dosage, you know, on a particular medication or even make sure that you have the right medication in your hand when you're when you're administering it. Right. There are ways, but a lot of people don't know them. So there are a whole series of, of sort of knock on effects that happen. That again, is part of that, that 17 billion. So the, the so basically what the study does is it separates the direct healthcare costs from those social costs and, and itemizes them individually and tries to suggest that they be dealt with in concert so that, you know, any strategy that, that tries to improve health care delivery or the negative impact that the cost to society of vision loss in Canada would be more successful. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you think we need to build more awareness and educate society about this topic? Ian White: Yes, absolutely. We'll we'll get into this in a little bit. But you know, there is so much misinformation or lack of information about what it means to live with blindness. There are so many assumptions that are projected onto us from sighted people based on the fear of what they feel they could not do if they were in our position. It's actually grounded in empathy, believe it or not. But it's but it's empathy without information. So the the problem is, and I've had this conversation with I can't imagine how many people where, you know, someone will approach me on a sidewalk and congratulate me Yes, and be amazed that I am walking down a sidewalk. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know I've had that happen to me. Ian White: Well, and again, it comes from a good place in that what that person is doing is they're saying, if I were to cover my eyes right now, yeah. Would I be able to do what you're doing? And the answer is no. Right. And what they don't realize is that I've been doing this for 25 years now. I've had specific orientation and mobility training to make sure that I can do it safely. I've been given the tool with which to do it, which is my white cane. And I've practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced. So yeah, I'm pretty good at going down the sidewalk. But again, it's this disconnect between what people think we're capable of and what we're actually capable of. Right. And and that, you know, piece of public awareness, if we could get that across you know, just open people up to the possibility of what we're capable of, I think would be a huge, huge thing. And on top of all of that is to really stress that you need to take care of the site you have. You need to be aware that and not take it for granted. You need to get in and get an eye exam because a lot of the the diseases that affect your eyesight. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Ian White: Are there and working away long before you ever realize there's a problem. And they can be diagnosed and treatment interventions can be implemented long before you start to lose vision. Screen Reader: New notification from. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Ian White: You know, so you can actually stave off a lot of the negative impacts of vision of eye disease by early diagnosis and aggressive treatment. And so So you can actually save a lot of vision. And again we'll get into the importance of prevention and and what's been. What's been put together in terms of trying to make that happen. Ian White: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My poor old clock is starting to tell me time is winding down. But. Oh dear I wanted to ask you this question. Yeah. The report separates financial costs from loss of well-being. All right. In plain language, what does loss of well-being mean? And why should policymakers and the public take that part of the cost as seriously as dollars and cents? Ian White: So in in very straightforward terms the difference between the two, the way it's calculated, direct health care costs are the actual costs of money spent to provide health care. Okay. The loss of productivity and well-being costs are projections of the difference between what the costs would be if you didn't have vision loss, and what are the costs, the negative impacts on that number. Now that you do have vision loss. So it's a it's a potential reduction right. So it's it's based on the idea that you will you'll find yourself in a position where your independence is is reduced. Well, that's going to have direct effects on you as an individual and on society at large. If you can't get around as well as other people, if you can't operate independently, if you're constantly hitting barriers, you're not going to be as productive, you're not going to be as engaged, and you're not going to you're not going to be able to participate as fully in society as if you had that independence. It's also a loss of productivity in a very direct sense. I know you probably know this, but the employment statistics for people with vision loss are appalling. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Ian White: About only about 33% of us actually have gainful employment. And that includes people who are part time and people who are on contract. Ian White: So which is just about half of the general population. Yeah. And what that means is that our earning potential, our ability to go out and find gainful, meaningful work is negatively impacted by our vision and by the lack of independence, the lack of tools. We have to be able to engage in that kind of work. And it's also a reflection of the stereotypes and stigma that we face in trying to be hired as employees. So there's a there's a direct negative impact on our earning potential. You know, there are people who have experienced vision loss as career professionals. They're fully credentialed. They're, you know, obviously able to do the work up until the point they encounter a vision loss. They go through extensive rehabilitation training. They get all the tools they need, and they get back into the workforce, either at a lower pay scale and a less responsible position, or they find themselves stagnating and not being promoted at the same rate as their sighted peers. And so again, there's an earning potential differential there. Right. So these are all sort of factored into these social costs, the after effects of vision loss. But I think, you know, really one of the things that's, that's really important to understand about about vision loss and disability generally is that if we are constantly facing social barriers that negatively impact our our general participation, and that's right across society, whether it's, you know, engaging in your community, engaging in a pursuit of faith, whether it's pursuing economic activity, whether it's banking, whether it's politics if we're not engaging. And most of us, frankly, are finding that very difficult to do we as a society lose from that. Right? We aren't as fully represented. We aren't as engaged. We our voices aren't heard. And I think from a societal standpoint, that's a real a real challenge. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is. Ian White: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So we just have a few more minutes, and I wanted to just ask you. I know that you have recently stepped away from visionaries you know formerly, right? Ian White: I am kind of there. I've moved into a past presidents role, so I'm basically an advisor to the group. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Ian White: Yeah. So. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ian, what's next for Ian White? What are you what is on the drawing board for Ian White? And how can. I'd like to know more. I'd like to get involved in some way, shape or form. Ian White: Sure. So one of the things that I've come to realize over the last few years in working with a number of people outside of the visionaries who are really working in sort of the research and advocacy space is that this is sort of the thing that has me most curious right now. So I'm trying to sort of make a transition from sort of a grassroots community The organizer within the blind community to moving into more of an advocacy role and really trying to engage with some of the bigger picture activities that are going on in terms of disability rights advocacy. Moving the needle on things like reforms to the Ontario Assistive Devices Program, which has been a fascinating project. I bet and also being involved in sort of working with a coalition of groups to make submissions to the federal government on Bill C-2 84, which is the national strategy on eye care. Right, right. So these are the kinds of of things that I'm really curious to get involved with and I am involved with. But one of the things that I've realized is that policy makers are a lot more interested in listening to you if you come at them with quantitative data. Ian White: And solidly researched information that they don't have. Just as an example we did a survey back in 2022. It was published in February on potential reforms to the assistive devices program in Ontario. So for those people who don't know, the Ontario government has a program under the Ministry of Health called Assistive Devices Program, and it actually serves about 18 or 19 different groups of disabilities, one of which is visual aids. What we discovered in doing that survey was that the what we already knew anecdotally was that the system, the program itself was not actually serving the the actual needs of people with vision loss in Ontario. And I could go into a great deal of detail about that, but the upshot was that of the nearly half a million people in Ontario who live with vision loss and are de facto eligible for funding support under that program, only about 1% of them were actually applying for funding support for the devices that are listed under that program. And what that told us was several things. One, the process itself was burdensome from the clients perspective in terms of just getting through the paperwork and and administrative hoops that needed to be jumped through. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Ian White: The list of products was way out of date and had not been seriously updated, and had not been compared to actual on the ground needs in probably 20 years. The, you know, there were many, many things. There were a whole series of financial barriers to participation. And so we were able, through gathering this direct information from users of the program to identify where we thought the choke points were and sit down in front of the Ontario government and try to engage with them and explain to them why the program, although in principle is a great idea to offer funding support for assistive devices for people with vision loss the execution of it was failing. And I think some of those conversations were constructive. Some of them were less so. But we did manage to at least make some headway on fully funding white canes, which had not been part of the mix. They had white canes on the funded list, but it was a 75, 25 cost split, and the authorization period was every 12 months. And what that meant was, from a client standpoint, you had to go to your eye doctor and get an eye report. That eye report had to be forwarded to an assessor for orientation and mobility. You had to set up an appointment with the O&M to come and assess you, to see if you were still painting properly. And then they would write up some paperwork and submit it to the government, and eventually you'd get a cane. Ian White: And what we said to them was, look, you know, for anybody who's lost vision and has had orientation and mobility experience with, you know, so they've had the training. They know how to get around. They don't need to go back through that process every 12 months just to get authorization for a cane. Right. Let's expand that window to a five year window to say you only need to get authorized to check on you to make sure you're still okay. Every five years, there will be an annual funding amount available for you to get a new cane. Because honestly, I can bust a cane in a year. So can I And so you have the initial setup where you get authorized, you're authorized for a five year period instead of a one year period. You don't waste the time of the O&M doing for more assessments, and you have funding access for 100% funding access for white canes. Now, that was passed as legislation last November we are still waiting for it to be operationalized. So it's on the books, but it's not actually out yet. We're still poking at them to try and get that done, but yeah, it takes a long time. One of the things that I was told by a long term advocate who's been in the space for a long time is you got to have so much patience. Yeah. You just got to keep at it and keep at it. Keep at it, and eventually things will move. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We are almost out of time. But you know what? I'd like to invite you to return to my podcast. You know, because there's so much more to cover and there's so much more to know about. And I really would like to invite you back sometime in the new year. Would you be interested? Ian White: I would absolutely be thrilled to do that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great, because. Ian White: I would love to be able to tell you a little bit more about Bill 284 and where that's at. Yeah. I think that's a really, really important piece of legislation in Canada that people need to be more aware of. Yeah. And I'm also hoping to have some news on a new organization that's being set up to focus on eHealth research and that that goes sort of beyond just medical treatment stuff. It's it really gets into rehabilitation and the social impact piece, which is not really being addressed in any coherent way right now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Look for an invitation from me early in the new year and we will set something up, because you have a lot more to tell us, and I want to thank you for having come on here. Ian White: It's been an absolute joy. Donna. Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And, you know, we have enjoyed good times over the years and we will continue to do that. Ian White: We shall, we shall. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. Enjoy your holiday season. Ian. Ian White: Thanks, Donna. You too. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And keep on going. Ian White: Okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Thank you very much. Bye for now. Ian White: Bye now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #59: Appropriate Insurance Policies | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-01-2025-a In this timely episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan reflects on her show's evolving format, then zeroes in on a pressing question. do today's mainstream insurance products truly protect people with disabilities. She surveys the crowded landscape of policies, from home and condo coverage to life and fire insurance, and argues that too many offerings still lack the relevance and muscle needed to address disability-related realities. She calls for agents and companies to deepen their awareness, to design coverage that actually matches lived needs, and to meet customers where they are. Donna situates the issue within a rapidly aging population as more people join the disability community. She urges listeners to push insurers and brokers for better protection and wonders whether targeted legislation might be required to accelerate change. She closes by inviting feedback and stories from the audience so the conversation can continue beyond the episode. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles. She just wants to make things better than possible. Hello. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My name is Donna and welcome to my Remarkable World commentary. And I guess I've been forced to change the title just a wee bit. From bi weekly world commentary to world commentary. Remarkable world commentary, I should say. And it's all because that, you know, since I think since June, we have been doing podcast interviews for some very, very exciting, interesting and high profile people in the landscape of advocacy. So for this episode, my November episode, I am would like to touch on appropriate insurance policies. You know, everybody is trying to insure everybody else that is insurance agents, insurance companies, financial companies, you name it, they're out there trying to insure the population in all kinds of different policies, ranging from house policies, condo policies, fire insurance policies, loss of life policies, life policies, you name it. It's all there. But I'm always wondering if these types of policies are as many types of policies are Equipped? Or do they have the coverage to cover the needs of persons with disabilities? I'm not sure that I have the answer, but I can say that based on my limited exposure to insurances, I would like to see more umph and more, you know, relevance put into these policies so that the requirements of persons with special needs or persons with disabilities are taken into consideration. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So maybe for a home policy or a condo policy or a life insurance policy, this could be considered moving forward. And you know, how aware are insurance agents with regard to the requirements and needs of persons with disabilities. I think we need to start pushing them a bit more, and they need to become more aware and more in tune with the requirements of persons with special needs when it comes to insurance policies. And the same for insurance companies. They need to become more aware. We need to be pushing them as persons with a disability, and we need to find ways to better protect persons with disabilities when it comes to insurance policies, because, you know, we're dealing with rapidly aging population, more and more people are becoming persons with disabilities. So I think it would not hurt to really start pushing this idea to both insurance agents and to insurance companies. I wonder if some type of legislation would be needed to make this happen more quickly. I'm not sure. So I'm going to leave it to you, my listeners, to let me know what you think you know. Write to me at Donna at them. I'm Donna, wishing you a great day and looking forward to seeing you again very soon. Take care now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #60: Awareness Training for Real Estate Agents | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-02-2025-b/ In this practical episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan looks at why real estate agents need better awareness training to serve clients with disabilities. She connects the dots between a rapidly aging population, the supply of truly accessible homes, and the responsibility of developers and agents to know where accessible properties are and what features they must include. Donna spells out concrete checks. location convenience, step-free entry, kitchens with reachable counters and storage, bathrooms and hallways wide enough for wheelchairs, and space that works with mobility aids. She urges agents to understand accessible equipment and appliances, from doorbells to washer and dryer setups, and to talk candidly about cost and practical workarounds. The aim is collaboration among developers, agents, and the disability community so buyers can actually find homes that fit their needs. She closes by inviting listeners to share experiences and questions by email so the conversation can drive real change. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, I'm Donna J. Jodhan and I have another remarkable World Commentary podcast to share with you for today. It's my second remarkable world commentary podcast for November. And you know, I'm really enjoying doing this, sharing my ideas with you. And I want to thank you for sending me your feedback, because it helps me to really sit down and think of what I would like to share with you each time I have my podcast. So for today, I want to talk about awareness training for real estate agents. I think with a rapidly aging population and more and more persons wanting to have homes that suit their needs and requirements. I think that real estate agents really need now to help us make all of this happen. Okay, so. Our real estate agents really aware of the types of homes that persons with special needs or persons with disabilities are seeking. Do they really understand the type of home that, you know, this growing group of clients are really seeking? But then again, it all depends on having accessible homes for real estate agents to show to clients with disabilities. So you've got to start from the top and think of how accessible are homes for persons with disabilities. And if there are enough or more and more of these, then real estate agents need to be more aware that they do exist. So you start with the developer. The developer needs to keep this very important fact in their mind. And then you go to the real estate agent who needs to become more aware of homes that are accessible for persons with disabilities. Okay. Where are these homes located? Are they located in convenient areas for persons who, you know, persons with disabilities? All right. And think about the physical Facilities. Do these homes contain the physical facilities that are needed for persons who are persons with disabilities? Okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And when I say physical facilities, what I mean is like you shouldn't an agent shouldn't really try to sell a home to a person with a disability. If that home contains lots of stairs and the person with the disability or the client with the disability is someone either in a wheelchair or who uses a mobility aid, or someone who is blind slash vision impaired. Okay. So these are things to take into account. And are the facilities suitable, like the kitchen for example countertops and being able to reach cupboards and shelves easily. Right. And the bathrooms are the big enough for wheelchairs to go into, or persons who use wheelchairs or persons with mobility aids. Are they big enough? Is this space big enough in the home to accommodate mobility aids and wheelchairs? Okay, then the real estate agent needs to think about types of equipment that are needed for persons who, you know, persons with disabilities. Types of equipment, you know, adequate dishwashers, toaster ovens, microwaves, washers, dryers, you know, these accessible appliances and appropriate doorbells and things like that. Okay. And then you've got to look at cost effectiveness, making sure that your client, if they are a person with a disability, can afford to have all these things or find workarounds. We want to work together agents, developers and persons with disabilities to ensure that accessible homes are made more aware and that real estate agents are made more aware of the needs of persons with disabilities. So that's my thought for today. I thank you for listening and I wish you a good day. Send your email to me at Donna Jodhan at gmail.com and I look forward to another episode with you very soon. Take care and bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna Jodhan at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #56: Interview with Diane Bergeron, Vice President, Engagement and International Affairs, CNIB | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-28-2025/ In this insightful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with global advocate Diane Bergeron to trace a life shaped by retinitis pigmentosa, guide dogs, and a tireless commitment to system change. Diane explains how losing vision by her mid thirties taught her that no one accommodation fits everyone, and how working with guide dogs sharpened a leadership style that sets the destination while inviting the team to chart the route. She connects early municipal work in Edmonton to provincial advising and national advocacy, then to a global dashboard through the World Blind Union, where she confronted stark regional contrasts in funding, women's equity, and youth leadership. Listeners also meet Lucy, the sock-stealing guide dog who turned packing into a comic ritual, and the story becomes a doorway into Diane's larger message about preparation, resilience, and grace under pressure. Now leading international partnerships, Diane outlines three priorities: sharing effective programs across borders, aligning standards, and building capacity in the Global South. She and Donna press hard on accessible voting, arguing that Canada must move past paper and pilot secure, verifiable options that deliver privacy and independence for all voters. Diane demystifies guide dog programs for businesses and transit providers, from genetics and training to the ethics of access, reminding leaders that refusing the dog is refusing the person. She closes with counsel for future advocates: know your audience, change attitudes first, and be ready to use every tool available, from quiet collaboration to legislation, until equal access is real. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to churn equal access into federal law and most recently on June 3rd, 2022. I was extremely humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday A practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Diane Bergeron or Diane Bergeron, AKA Di. Welcome to my My Remarkable World commentary podcast. Diane Bergeron: Hello, Donna. Thanks for having me on. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Di I'll never forget the first day when we met in Ottawa when John Rafferty, the past CEO, invited us to be at a I think it was a meet the parliamentarians thing in Ottawa. We're meeting behind the speaker's chair, and there you are with your very pretty dog. And I'm trying to remember her name. Diane Bergeron: But that that was Lucy. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Was that Lucy? Diane Bergeron: That was Lucy. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, I love Lucy. But that was the first day we met. And ever since then we have developed a good, solid friendship. You have been a great supporter to me, especially so when I was president of the Alliance for the Quality of Blind Canadians. We have maintained our friendship. We have served on several committees, advisory committees such as Elections Canada, and we did a panel together at the. Diane Bergeron: We did. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes we did. So let's get started. Diane Bergeron: That's good. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, Siam for listeners meeting you for the first time. How did your early journey with a genetic eye condition ultimately becoming blind by your mid-thirties, and that decades as a guide dog handler shape your leadership style and the values that you carry into advocacy today? Diane Bergeron: You know, Donna, I have to say, you have always asked the hard questions. You know that, right? Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, darn, I try. Diane Bergeron: You know, so having RP retinitis pigmentosa, you know, it slowly deteriorated. I was diagnosed when I was five and of course, was sort of became totally blind in my mid 30s, as you said, I've been having the gradual deterioration. One of the things that that really stuck to me in my life experiences is that people see the world differently every day. And whether they see the world with their eyes or they experience the world with something else, the way that they experience their environment is different on a regular basis. And sight loss for one person, or blindness for one person, is not the same as blindness for another person. And we can't make the assumption that just because we've accommodated one person with with a visual impairment, it doesn't mean that we're accommodating everybody. So that was one of the things that always struck me as I gradually lost my sight, was that people would say, oh, well, I have, you know, when I, when I was reading large print, they say, oh, but we've got it here in Braille. And I'm like, perfect. I don't read Braille. It's like people think as soon as you're diagnosed with being, you know, on the path to being blind, that you suddenly know how to read this, these bumps and that it makes perfect sense, you know? Yes. And and so that was one of the things. And that's something I've always taken back to my advocacy work is that one, one solution does not fit all. And in fact, one solution doesn't even fit one person in different scenarios. So that's one of the things the guide dog aspect is interesting for me, because I learned a couple of things with guide dogs from an advocacy perspective. You know, I learned that you have to you have to have a thick skin and always be prepared. Diane Bergeron: Excuse me, I always have to be prepared, especially if you're looking for some form of transportation going into certain places that that are, you know, often refuse access to guide dogs or any kind of service animal. I, I, You know, you've got to be ready to have a backup plan. You have to be ready to have all your information. You got to know what you're talking about. You have to be able to spew legislation which the average person doesn't have to do. Right. Most people don't go, you know, call a taxi. And when the taxi pulls up, you know, right away they get in and they go. They don't have to think about, okay, what city I'm in, what is this bylaw and is there, you know, what is the rules and the legislation in this province or you know, it's it's mind boggling. How much prepared you have to be just to go out and, and, you know, do these small things. I remember taking a vacation to the UK with my daughter when she was 13. And first we had a problem dealing with getting the dog accepted into the plane and blah, blah, blah. And then I finally took care of that. That took a few months. I finally took care of that. Then I sent an email to the tour bus company and said I was blind and I had a guide dog and they came back with, oh, you know, we can't accommodate that on our buses right now, blah, blah, blah. And my daughter read the email at 13 and she goes, mom, we're not even in the country yet and you're already causing problems. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, dear. Diane Bergeron: And I'm like, I just want to go on vacation. This is not rocket science. I just want to go on vacation with my daughter. It was a mother daughter trip. And, you know, it just became an ordeal. So that was one of the things. But when it comes to leadership, the interesting thing I find with Guide Dogs is something that I learned is that a guide dog is guiding or potentially leading, but although they're in front and they're saying, go this way, you know, they're they're taking you where you need to go. It's actually the handler that is giving the direction to the dog. And so that has really taught me a lot about leadership in that somebody else might be walking forward, but there's often somebody behind that person giving them the direction that they need to go. And a leader can be the person that is behind the guide. It is also taught me to say to people, just because just because you're guiding doesn't mean you get to decide where we go, right? Like this is a joint thing, right. We work this out together and that's that's what I've taken into my leadership style. If you talk to any of the people that work with me, I tend to sit down. I go, this is the end destination, people. How are we going to get there? And everybody gets a say as to how to get there or this is, this is what we need to fix in the world. How how are where are we going to go to, you know, to get this fixed. And there could be a myriad of different possibilities, and together we work on what the end destination is going to look like. So I would say that's from from my guide dog perspective. That's what I learned the most. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now you've held roles with the city of Edmonton, Alberta Premier's Councils Council on the Status of Persons with disabilities and then National Leadership at Cnib. What through line connects those chapters? And what did each one teach you about moving systems, not just hearts. Diane Bergeron: So I started at my first municipal government was the City of Edmonton, as you said. I was just coming out of university. I had had worked in rehabilitation, what is now known as disability and Community Studies or Community services with group home situations in the past. Then I had my my sweet girl. And had my daughter and then had to, you know, get back to work. Re-educated by the time I was going back to work. I was a single mom. By then, my husband and I had split up. The group home type work is really shift work, which is not easy at any time. But having, you know, having to deal with childcare, with shift work on top of transportation issues because of, you know, buses not going out at certain times of the night and so on. I felt that I needed to go back to school, so I did I went back and I got management studies and so on, and I ended up getting a job working for the city of Edmonton. And and I actually got that job by accident. If that sounds kind of weird to say that now, but when I got that job I had been doing a little bit of research on on something completely different and came across this job advertisement for the City of Edmonton Advisory Board on Services for persons with disabilities. And I thought, oh, look, I have a disability. Maybe I should apply. And it was about advising City Council on on a from a, from a disability perspective on city bylaws, regulations, standards programs, policies, that type of thing. Diane Bergeron: And and it was there was a board, an advisory board made up, made up of people with various disabilities. And this job was to go in and and work with that board to provide City of Edmonton advice on, on what they were doing around disability and so on. And I thought, that sounds very interesting. That sounds like it's, you know, right up my alley. And and so I applied on the job. Seriously, not even thinking I'd get the job. I wasn't even finished school yet. I still had a few months left, and then imagine my shock when they called and offered me the full time job and I'm like, but I'm not done school. I still have two months to go. And God bless the city. They they adopted my schedule so I could still go to school and finish up, and I and I got the job. And what it really fascinated me was learning the jurisdictional differences between municipal provincial, federal, international, regional, like, there's all these different kind of jurisdictions, and each different jurisdiction has different boundaries around it. And you know, sort of the, the how hard it was to get legislation through, regardless of what level government you're at. And but a regulation can get put through faster if you have the legislation to pin it on. And so there was you know, I learned all that stuff in that first few years with the city of Edmonton. Diane Bergeron: It was a fantastic experience. Variance, but my jurisdiction was the City of Edmonton. And, you know, I really a lot of the stuff that I saw as being key areas of concern for people with disabilities was at a, at a different not I'm not going to say a higher level. I mean, we might want to call it a higher level of government, but a different level and different jurisdictions, you know, education, health care, that kind of stuff that had to be dealt with at the municipal or at the provincial level. So that's when the job came up at the Premier's Council. And I thought, well, that's perfect. It takes the experience and knowledge that I have from the city, but it gives me that different jurisdiction to work on these things that I, I would really like to work on. So I did that for a number of years. And and then it got to the point where I was realizing that sometimes when you work in government, you're you don't have the freedom to make a lot of the decisions that you want to make, because those decisions have to be made by either the higher bureaucracy or by the political realm. And you can't you're not an advocate at that point. You're an advisor, and you are giving that advice to those individuals, and they can take it or leave it. Diane Bergeron: And if they choose to leave it, then you're not. That's the decision. And now you you implement their decision. And I was getting frustrated with implementing what I felt was not the right decision. And Cnib John Rafferty, as you mentioned before, called me up and said you know, we had met for coffee at one point and he said, I got a job you might be interested in. And suddenly I went, oh, I get to go and be at my the job they were offering me was national director of government relations and advocacy. And I'm like, oh, now I get to go not just deal with different levels of government, including, you know, the municipal, the provincial, the federal. There was some international. But I get to do it from the other side of the table. So now I get to show up at the table and I don't have to care about what the you know, what all of these other people think. I can show up and advocate and really, you know, speak my voice. And and when the answer comes back, no, I can go back and say, that's the wrong answer. Let's try again. Yeah. Which I couldn't do in government. So there was definitely that, that, that through piece of it was learning from the inside and then coming outside and going back and saying, now I know how everything works. Let me tell you what you're doing wrong. Diane Bergeron: And I'm very good at telling people what they're doing wrong. My husband will tell you that for a fact. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You never told me that, though. Diane Bergeron: No, I haven't had to do that yet. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Not yet. Oh, boy. So today you serve as Caleb's head of international partnerships. From my seat, as a fellow advocate, I'm curious, what does international partnerships actually look like day to day, and how do you decide which collaborations will deliver the greatest impact for blind communities? Diane Bergeron: So the the department, international partnerships department, you know, I've been I've been connected to international since I started with Cnib through the World Blind Union and through some other international collaborations. But We decided it was always off the side of my desk. It was always kind of a piece of the other work that I was doing. And then in December Angela Bonfante had become the president CEO of Cnib, and she asked me to step away. At that time, I was running the guide dog program, and she asked me to step away from guide dogs and create this new international partnerships department and the whole purpose of the department, she said, I want you to develop a strategy and the whole thing. So we kind of came down to when we were looking at what needs to be done from an international perspective. We came down to three key areas. One is what is being done around the world, in other organizations or in other countries that we can bring back to Canada and help benefit Canadians who are blind or partially sighted or deafblind. So that could be a program that somebody is doing in another country, at country, at another blindness organization that we. Why? Why should we reinvent the wheel if they're doing a great job at it? Let's talk to them and see if we can use their you know, their, their template and bring that forward and then tweak it for the Canadian you know, the Canadian context. And the other piece of that is what do we have in, in Canada that other countries don't have in, you know, so if you think about employment, for example, you know, we have our Come to Work program. Diane Bergeron: There's organizations in other countries that are looking at their own employment programs. And so they're like, well, that sounds like that's doing quite well. And we just yeah, here's here's the the structure, the strategy, here's how to set it up. And, and you know, there's not this proprietary perspective. We're just sharing information and literally handing over the keys to our program. And then other organizations take that and, and create you know, create their own added to that piece. And this is all the first one, which is all like working on this, how to build these programs is sometimes we'll work with more than, you know, one or 2 or 3 organizations where we come together and say, what's really needed is this, but it doesn't exist. So let's the two or 3 or 4 of our organizations sit down and figure out together, based on all the history and information that we have as a collective, how to create that one program or one thing to, to make lives better in all of our countries. So that's sort of that partnership piece there. The second big component is standards international standards and national standards. So many times Canada creates their own standards. And then sometimes they get shared internationally, sometimes they don't. So part of my job was to look at what are we doing. Well. And when it comes to standards and and Canada, the other part is, is sometimes there's international standards that are out there that Canada is not adopting. Diane Bergeron: So making sure that the standards go in both directions. So that was another piece. And the last piece is social corporate responsibility looking what's happening in the global South and looking at developing countries. And how can we as an organization and as a country who has knowledge and resources, how can we assist in helping to build capacity in those other in those other countries? So that was created, you know, that was the purpose of the department which says a whole lot about what we want to do. But day to day, I could be talking about the Marrakesh treaty on Monday morning with an on a zoom call. And Monday afternoon I'm off to meet with a member of Parliament to talk about a youth internship and international youth internship program. And then I might have to get up in the middle of the night to participate in a zoom call with somebody and I don't know, India about employment programs and how we might be able to help them with theirs. So it just it it's not a 9 to 5 job. It's not a, it's not a sit behind your desk. Sometimes you need to travel and and a lot of people think traveling internationally is this really exciting thing. And it is for about the first six months. And then it's exhausting because you get on a plane and you land and you change in the airport and you go to meetings, and then you get back on a plane and you come home. Diane Bergeron: So, you know, depending on where you're going and what you're doing, sometimes you're there for a few days, but you really get to see the airport and the hotel and then the airport again. So it's it's it sounds jet setting sounds very glamorous, but it it isn't always sometimes it's fun and you get to do a little side trip or something, but definitely it's it's a lot of time zone changes. It's strategic travel because you only want to use money to travel when you know that you're going to be able to strategically do some good. And then and it's really looking at what, what is our like giving the goals and the information I've given you on what our department does. Then it's matching that to what other people are doing. So I'm not going to partner with somebody with with an organization that does not that does not align with the, you know, the values and, and, and direction of what we are doing. So it all depends on, on what they're doing. But it typically that's where I go back to my, my plan. And I go, does it fit in with this plan. And if it does is it meeting the the values of the organization. And quite honestly, it honestly Donna, there's a lot of it that is intuition where you sit back and go, you know, we haven't talked about this at Cnib, but this is a really innovative thing and I think it could benefit some people. And then I just go and find the people and get backing. So yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember a funny story you told me once, I think it was Lucy who used to take the socks out of your suitcase. Diane Bergeron: Yes. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember that. Diane Bergeron: When I was packing. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Diane Bergeron: Yeah, she's. She used to take my socks out. Well, anything she could get her mouth on, actually any kind of garment that she could. If if she could get her mouth on it, she would unpack what I was packing and often replace it with dog toys. So if the dog toys were in there, like that was kind of the thing I had to make sure was there. It was almost like she was saying, if there's no dog toys, it means you're traveling without me and you're not allowed to go. And if you're traveling with me, there better be dog toys in there to keep me occupied. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What a dog. Diane Bergeron: Yeah, yeah, she was a character, that's for sure. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Now, I believe that you were at one time a table officer at the World Blind Union, plus the treasurer, plus chairing the women's committee and the finance committee. How do those roles give you a global dashboard on what's working and what's failing for blind people across regions. Diane Bergeron: Yeah. So the world blind union, just for anybody who doesn't know, the World Blind Union is a coalition of sorts of organizations around the world, oven for Blind People. And it's separated into six regions North America, Caribbean, Europe, Asia Pacific, Asia, Africa and Latin America. And so and each of those regions have a set of officers. And so the president of each of those regions makes up the table and makes up the officers. And the table officers are a global it's a global position. So it's the president, past president, president, first and second vice presidents, treasurer and secretary general. The table officer position is a global position. Once you become a table officer, you no longer represent your country or your region. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Diane Bergeron: So when you sit at that table, you can't think about what's right for Canada. You have to think about or not even what's right. You know what's right for North America, Caribbean region. You have to think about the global perspective. So you get to sit amongst representatives, representatives from every region, and they bring to the table some of their concerns and so on. And as treasurer. First and foremost, you know, I dealt with looking at the finances, the finances of the of the organization, but that meant that I also had to work with the secretary general to look at the finances of all the different members that were looking for sponsorships. You've got a good understanding of sort of where the various countries were at when it came to their global positioning, financial positioning. But and it was often fascinating to me that you could have a country that would be a mid to high level financial country. But the organization serving people who are blind or partially sighted would actually be looking for a subsidy because they get absolutely zero assistance from from government. And the, you know, a lot of a good example of that would be some of the countries in the Caribbean, you know, they've got high income or mid to high income country because their their basis is tourism. But none of that tourism, none of those tourism dollars trickles down to the organization serving people who are blind or partially sighted or who are of people who are blind or partially sighted. So it gave you an understanding of some of the financial situations. I was also before I became chair of the Women's Committee. Diane Bergeron: For many years I was chair of the Youth Youth Engagement Leadership Committee, and that also gave me some great perspectives on what are the newer things coming. You know, what are younger people thinking coming from the different regions because there was representation from each different region. And often, of course, those committee members were also girls or women. And so it crossed over with the women's the Women's Committee which of course, then also gave me that perspective of the difference of being a woman in Canada as opposed to a woman in a rural area of a developing country. And and it's, it's it was always fascinating to me that, you know, we as women in Canada, we have. We still face the glass ceiling. Not as much as we used to, but it's still there. We still face equality issues, but when you compare that to the situation for women in you know, countries where they are suppressed and they are not treated equally, it's very difficult to to to get your, your head around it. And so I became quite fascinated about looking at how do we how do we try to fight against suppression of women and, and violence against women in certain areas and regions of the world. And how do we work with UN treaties and other and various organizations to try and combat this? So it was it was it's always been a fascination of mine around women. But then this particular Her role gave me an opportunity to see those differences up close and personal. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've had a priceless education that many would envy. I'm telling you, priceless. Diane Bergeron: Yeah. It's been it's been a it's been a fascinating experience, that's for sure. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You can write a book. Diane Bergeron: That'll be my next one, right? Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Now, you and I both care deeply about accessible voting and the right to a truly secret ballot from your work. Engaging, engaging Elections Canada and Parliament. What are the most practical next steps Canada should take to pilot and scale accessible electronic voting securely? Diane Bergeron: So number one. We got to get rid of this paper ballot. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes. Diane Bergeron: That's just number one, right? It can't be that the paper ballot works for all these people. And part of the problem is, is that we're looking at this from an accommodation perspective. Right. My viewpoint is, is that the paper ballot is actually an accommodation for sighted people. It is useless to the rest of us. And if all the ballots were Braille, it would be useless to the sighted people. So regardless of how it is, it's an accommodation for somebody. And in that case, it's an accommodation for people who can see or as I tend to call them, the retinol dependents of the world. And so we keep thinking about it as though we have to create this different system for people who have who are blind or partially sighted or deaf. And my statement to and I've said this and you heard me say this so many times. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: With. Diane Bergeron: Elections Canada is, you know, we need to stop with the paper ballot. We need to come up with a secure system that can accommodate everybody at the polling stations. And it needs to be done so that I can walk into. And you can walk into a polling station and vote like everybody else without having to get assistance. We can check that we voted properly. There's so many ways we can do this. We can do it in secret. For those of us who who are you know, who can use audio, we can we can plug in a headphone and listen to it. For those people who need Braille, they can plug in a Braille display. There's all sorts of ways that we can make this accessible. But the first and foremost thing is the legislation that regulates the ballot needs to provide opportunities that the the government, from a political standpoint, need to give Elections Canada the freedom to make it happen. But they're so afraid of it for some reason. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wonder why. Diane Bergeron: You know, they're just terrified of giving this. All the things can be tampered with and everything else. Well, yeah, they can, but at the same time, paper can be tampered with, too. So, you know, we need to create the system from the ground up, and you can you can do that. You can do that without changing the legislation just to try it out and create the system. The problem is they're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. They're trying to create something that works with the paper ballot and that works with the legislation. My argument is they should forget about the legislation off to the side, come up with the system, fix the problem, and then change the legislation. And the solution is there. That's what I think they need to do. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do you say to skeptics who argue that assistive help at the polling station is good enough. How do you explain, succinctly but persuasively, why privacy and independence at the ballot box or civil rights are not conveniences. Diane Bergeron: So when I have when I, when I'm voting and I need to use somebody, they I always tell them that this is not this is not good enough. This is absolutely not good enough. How do I know that person's going to mark the ballot the way I want them to mark it? How do I know that if they did that, that they would keep my decisions secret? How do I check to make sure that they didn't accidentally spoil my ballot? There's no way for me to confirm any of that. And their answer to me is always that person takes an oath to to keep it secret, to market the way you know that you want them to. And I always remind them that my ex-husband also took an oath at one time. And with the divorce rate in this country, that should tell people how much they should trust this stranger that they don't know to take an oath. It is unacceptable. It is. It is. It is not, in my opinion, based on a human rights perspective. Every Canadian, according to my what I've always learned in this country is every Canadian has the has the right to vote independently and in secret. Unless of course, you're blind. Then apparently that doesn't matter, because we get this person that we don't even know and we're supposed to trust them. So if I can't trust the person I'm marrying, I certainly cannot trust this perfect stranger. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I love that analogy, but it's true. I mean, you know, somehow they don't understand that in the case of a blind or sight impaired person, privacy is so important. What do we do? What do we do to convince them? How can we? Diane Bergeron: I don't know, Donna. You and I have been at it for what now? Like 15 years? Yeah. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. Diane Bergeron: I would like to say, though, I do think that Elections Canada does try. I think that they do. They do a lot of innovative things. And they keep trying to, to fit that square peg in. But until the government says go off to the side, figure this out and come back to us with this perfect system, and then we'll change the legislation. It's not I don't think it's going to go anywhere. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Now, you let Cnib guide dogs and now help drive its growth for business owners, transit agencies These and hospitality listener leaders listening. What are the top access mistakes you still see with working teams? And what's the quick start playbook to fix them? Diane Bergeron: Wow. You know, there's this assumption that a dog is a dog is a dog, and that's not true. I think that it's important for, for any customer facing business to understand that the dogs that that are chosen to be guide dogs are they're not just chosen. We don't go. You know, we don't go down to the pound and pick a dog and go, okay, we're going to slap a harness on it and go somewhere. These dogs are bred specifically using genetic information to get the best possible outcomes. We look at behavior. We look at health, we look at temperament, we look at trainability. There's so many things that we think about. And I've learned so much around canine genetics. I did not know that a dog's comfort level walking up and down stairs is actually actually baked into their DNA. So if we if we have dogs that are not comfortable on stairs, you often see it in in the majority of the litter. And so we won't use any of those dogs when it comes to looking at breeding and so on, because we want to make sure that that's not there. So, you know, you have to make sure that that dog is the creme de la creme of dogs and the trainability and and so on and so forth. So these dogs are, are the, the perfection of these dogs, if you want to call it that starts before they're even conceived. Because we look at the, we look at these dogs from five generations back to see the history we look at, like there is a world registry of information about genetics on service dogs. Diane Bergeron: And so there's all sorts of information. And then you and then you have geneticists that are working on, you know, you have a dog, you want a dog that has confidence and, and and has drive, but you want them to be quiet and, and at the same time. And so if you have a dog, that's for example, you have a dog that's got a little bit too much energy. You probably want to breed that dog to a dog that's, you know, fairly lazy and doesn't want to move that much. And hopefully the puppies in between will come out with that, that middle ground. So there's a lot of genetics and research. And I would say science that goes into that, you know, those puppies. And then right from day one. Those dogs are they're interacted with in very specific ways and monitored and tested for their right up, like, before they even leave their mom at eight weeks old. There's lots of checks to see how that dog is interacting and and what it's doing. And then they go off with the puppy raisers who are very specifically working with those dogs. So this is a big cycle of getting that dog prepared. And in the long run, the dog comes back from their puppy raiser, goes through training, and eventually is matched very specifically with the handler. Diane Bergeron: It's not just any dog for any handler, it's a specific dog for a specific handler so that the match, you know, the team can be successful. And even at that point, the success rate of the dogs going through the program is only 40%. So that person and that dog walking into their business and to their taxi service or whatever, rideshare or, you know, restaurant, whatever it is, they're walking in with a dog that has made it to the top. We didn't just send them the dog with an instruction manual and said, here's how you work your dog. There is training with that. Each specific dog and that person puts in a lot of work into that dog. So that dog is coming into your business. There's been a massive investment into that dog and the handler. So the dog coming in is probably better behaved than the majority of the humans coming into your business, because I don't know any human that goes in there that before they were even conceived, their parents sat down and said, let's look at five generations back to see what kind of match we're going to have. You know, this is something that is very scientific. And so, so I, I really think that what the business owners need to know is the dog that's coming in is specialized in doing a job. It's creating independence and freedom for that individual so that they can have the life they choose, that they want to have and do what they want to do. Diane Bergeron: And by refusing the dog and this is people say this to me, I'm not refusing. I'm not refusing you. I'm refusing your dog. And I've often said my dog did not call for a taxi. She's not allowed to use the phone. So it's me if you refuse the dog, you're refusing me. We are a unit. This is a human rights issue. And so understanding that that dog and that person is connected. You can't say I'm refusing the dog because refusing the dog is refusing me service. And that is discrimination, plain and simple. So I think people need to train their staff to understand that that person has the right to be accompanied by their dog. I also think they need to understand that they have rights. The handler of the dog needs to keep that dog under control and behaving appropriately. And they do have the right if the dog is acting inappropriately. And I mean, if the dog's, you know, stealing the stake off the neighbor's table. They do have the right to ask the person to take their dog and leave, because if I stole the stake off the neighbor's table, they would ask me to leave. So, you know, they do have rights themselves. But just for being. Just for for being accompanied by a guide dog. It's against the law. And I recommend you don't do it. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess I just learned something very interesting about, you know, how guide dogs are developed, and they were all about their genetics and, you know, wow, I didn't know this before now. Diane Bergeron: Oh, yeah. It's this is this is it's a big process. And I think people think we just, you know, the dog falls out of the sky with a harness on and we grab it and walk away and hope for the best. This is huge. It's a huge process. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I see the clock is starting to wind down, but I wanted to ask you this question. Many countries are facing guide dog shortages, and Cnib launched a puppy development center in Ontario and forged cross-border partnerships with the US schools. What did it take to stand that up and what matrix? Wait times, graduation rates, you know, retention tell you that the system is improving. Diane Bergeron: Well, you know, I would say that first of all, you have to have partnerships in this in this space a breeding program is like a colony. And if you stick with your own colony, eventually you'll end up with too much of the inbreeding you'll end up with. You know, there's any geneticists who are listening. You know, you've got the inbreeding, the cross breeding, the outbreeding, the the overbreeding. Yeah. And you want to make sure that you have diversity within your colony. A to make sure that you're bringing in different genetics and you're not getting too much into inbreeding, but also so that you can end up bringing in different personalities and different skill sets. Right? Because if you think about people if you think about the needs of people for that need a guide dog and you put it on sort of a bell curve or an, you know, an arc, you've got the people at the top of that bell curve which, you know, the dogs are they, they find the door, they find the curb, they find the elevator. They do all the things the guide dogs are supposed to do. And they're, you know, they're what I call the the average, the average guide dog, the guide dog that does all the things that guide dogs do. And then there's the other end of the scale where that person just gets up and basically goes for a walk around the neighborhood and comes back, and all they need is a dog that goes around the neighborhood safely. Diane Bergeron: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that's not meaning to say that that's not a good life. Quite frankly. I'd like that life right now, but but but you don't need a high energy dog with a massive amount of confidence that can get on planes and trains and automobiles and and everything else. And it can handle crowds and loud noises and sirens and, you know, so that's the other end of the scale. So you need dogs from one end of that arch to the other end of that arch. And, and you want to make sure that you if you don't have all of that within your colony, you have to work with other other organizations to get that those genetics and that into your into your colony. The way to do that is to work with, in partnership with other guide dog programs and say, hey, we've got this great we've got this great lab. We think that this is the, you know, she's beautiful, she's got all the great things, but but we don't have a good partner for her. They have a good partner. So then we we work together and we create. And then both of those dogs end up adding to the breeding of both of our colonies. So you have to have the partnerships in the breeding. During Covid especially we struggled the, the issue is that there's more people that want dogs than there is dogs. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Dogs. Diane Bergeron: Yeah. And, and trainers to go around. There is a shortage of guide dogs, mobility instructors and guide dog trainers. And even if you've got all the trainers that you want, if we don't have enough volunteer puppy raisers to raise those puppies, I can't, I can't breathe and have, you know, 500 puppies. If I only have 100 puppy raisers, what do I do with all those dogs? You know, so you have to. It's like the cycle has to be perfectly matched right from the beginning to the end. The end, which is the handler. And of course, it actually is more like a circle, because eventually that handler is going to need another dog. And so they have to do the full circle right back to the beginning. So it's it's a very tight knit circle. And if you don't have partners within that system to help you when you have a shortage and they have a, you know, some schools, they, they had the problem, they had too many puppies during Covid. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Diane Bergeron: And they weren't running classes because of Covid. We needed puppies like we needed dogs. So they gave us their dogs and then we gave them back dogs and we like. That's what partners do. You know and it really worked very well. We've got partnerships all around the world now that we work with. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: O di. We're almost at the end of our session here. But based on your wealth of experience, your wealth of knowledge, your education and everything, I sure admire what you've done. What words of wisdom would you have for future advocates? Diane Bergeron: You know, I think I would love to say that the time will come where advocacy is not needed anymore, that the world is just built for everybody. And things are just, you know, part of life. I don't think I'm going to be alive if that ever happens. I think that it's going to take much longer than the rest of my lifetime. And I'm not sure we'll ever get there. Advocacy for me is, I would say you when you're advocating there's different ways to do it. You can advocate from within and become a part of the system. You can't beat them. Join them. Type perspective, help to build, help to create. Sometimes you have to go from without and really push and and become more forceful. Sometimes you have to legislate, sometimes you have to get the media involved. Sometimes you have to beg, plead and grovel. And sometimes you have to, you know, become friends with somebody so that they can understand. But ultimately, advocacy is knowing your audience and understanding that you need to change your strategy based on the audience that you are trying. Because really, the problem with the world isn't the electoral system or the you know, the lack of Braille places or the policy that isn't working properly. The problem is the attitudes against and the stigma that is held against people who are blind or partially sighted and deafblind. And that's what we need to change. You're not going to change any of the systems until you change the attitudes. And that's got to be the number one piece of the puzzle for advocates. Know your audience and know that it's their attitudes you have to change. So you have to you have to get them to change their mind, preferably in a nice, friendly way. But sometimes it has to. You have to change their mind through legislation, but that's what you're trying to do, ultimately. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Diane Bergeron has been a pleasure. Absolute pleasure listening to you. I've learned so much. Diane Bergeron: Well, thank you for having me on, Donna. We've been we've been friends for a long time, and I very much appreciate the invite. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And if ever you wanted to come back, please do. Thank you again. It's been a pleasure. I hope we sometime we will be able to meet up and have a glass of wine and take it from there. Diane Bergeron: I was up for a glass of wine. Donna, you know that. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know that, I know that. So take care. Hi to your hubby. Diane Bergeron: Thank you. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And we will talk to you soon. Diane Bergeron: Sounds good. Take care. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Diane Bergeron: Bye bye. Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #53: Interview with David Baker, Associate Counsel, Labour & Employment Law and Human Rights Law Groups, Ross & McBride LLP | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-21-2025/ In this wide-ranging episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes "Charter-Challenge Champion" David Baker for a candid tour of modern equality law's past, present, and future. Baker recalls the phone call that launched Donna's landmark case and traces his own origin story, from launching Canada's first legal aid clinic inside a psychiatric hospital as a law student, to early public-interest work with Ralph Nader, to the coalition-building that helped entrench disability in Ontario's Human Rights Code and the Canadian Charter. He explains how his graduate work informed early Section 15 strategy, demystifies the shift from formal to substantive equality with a simple "stairs vs. access" example, and describes today's CRPD-inspired "inclusive model of equality," noting he has just filed a first Canadian case grounded in it. The conversation then moves from principles to precedent: Baker outlines the duty to accommodate (and where it fails), revisits Eldridge's requirement for sign-language interpretation in healthcare and how that standard spread through the courts, and returns to the Jodhan ruling, where WCAG 2.0 framed "equal access," the appeal removed judicial oversight, and, in his telling, federal compliance lapsed. He describes new litigation aimed at bringing all federal ICT, not just websites, up to the European 301 549 accessibility standard after a bill to adopt it died, even floating contempt proceedings, and closes by flagging AI as a fast-moving front for disability discrimination and sketching an emerging, international legal strategy to meet it. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles. She just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the The Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its website accessible to every Canadian, not just to blind Canadians. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a changemaker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. David Baker, Charter Challenge Champion this is how I like to think of you. Welcome to my podcast. David Baker: Thank you for that kind introduction. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're very welcome. And David, I have to tell you, I will never, ever forget the day when Charlene Ayotte encouraged me to call you. And I never expected you to say right off the bat, Donna, you have a case. So welcome again. Him. David Baker: So I haven't forgotten the day that you called. It isn't every day that a client calls with a case fully developed, as you did. So I think people should understand that quite often in charter cases, the lawyer engages in a lot of shaping of the issue. But you came with an idea, and it was a good one for everybody. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hey, David. David Baker: For everybody, I believe. Yes. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, David, you've been called a builder of modern equality law. Could you walk me through your origin story from creating a legal aid clinic inside a psychiatric Hospital as a law student to working with Ralph Nader to founding arch. David Baker: Well let's see law school was kind of boring. So I continued on with my studies in English, and I audited a course my first year of law school in English and was put in a seminar with the professor and one other student who turned into my wife. So it pays not to pay too much attention to law school. And the other thing I did to entertain myself during law school was I did a lot of litigation. Not all of it was disability related, but My first summer. So the let's see got through first year. Oh, I should say your first day of law school. The dean comes in and he says, look to your left, look to your right. By the end of the year, one or other of the people next to you will be gone. As in, they were flunking out at that time, about one third of admissions. So that was a nice welcome. Anyway, I didn't manage to flunk out, even though I didn't pay too much attention to law school. And at the end of first year, in those days, there were things called lip grants, which means the Government of Canada gave money to worthy organizations doing worthy things to pay minimum wage. And The Student Legal Aid Society was hiring Students to take on cases, and I was the only first year student they hired. And therefore all the other students got first choice of where they went and what they did. And I was stuck with starting the legal aid clinic at the Queen Street Mental Health Centre. Oh, no. As my summer job, which was fine because I had a motorcycle and I could ride down there and ride back. David Baker: No problem. Wow. And they had a swimming pool, so I was able to go swimming when I wasn't lawyering. And Anyway it was the first legal clinic in a psychiatric hospital in Canada. There was one previous one in Washington, D.C., and I think the place was is Bellevue in New York City. What's the hospital in the big psychiatric hospital in Washington? I forgot the name of it. Anyway, there was one started there, and we were the second. And then there was one. Started out in B.C., not not too long after. And the fun thing about being in on the ground floor of something is that suddenly you're an international expert, even even though you don't know anything, because what little you know is more than anybody else knows, because you're kind of making it up as you go along. And so I had an entertaining summer of speaking at international conferences and talking to psychiatrists who had no clue what the law was. And as I say, I didn't know much more than they did, but I guess I knew enough more that they kept coming back to here. So it was very interesting. We had a, a number of successful cases where people were discharged from the hospital, and, and And this was all kind of new. And out of that, I will say came a number of things, including the Justice Rosalie Abella Report on Access to Legal Services for persons with disabilities, which resulted in legal aid being made available to psychiatric patients. So the Student Legal Aid Clinic was displaced by real lawyers providing services. Not too long after we started the student clinic there. And that continues to this day. David Baker: There is not legal aid for much in Ontario. Basically family law, criminal law a bit of immigration primarily refugee law and and then mental health law. So that was an interesting spin off from a student riding his motorcycle down to the psychiatric hospital to have a swim and do review board hearings. Wow. Oh. Ralph Nader. So after I graduated let's see. And did my articles there were no real public interest law opportunities around in Canada. So I went down and worked with Ralph Nader at the Tax Reform Research group. I was offered a job by the General Accounting Office on taxation of life insurance reserves, which is very esoteric, but to me, interesting area and hired by the preeminent tax policy guy in the United States who was heading the project and Ronald Reagan canceled it. So I'm a Canadian still, thankfully. And while I was down working for Nader, I was also working with something called the Mental Health Law Project, which is now the Bazelon Center, which does a lot of the very large systemic cases about closing institutions and transferring that money into other community services, which we still haven't managed to achieve in terms of litigation. Here, there's a case called Olmstead for which they are responsible. And my efforts to duplicate it here got short circuited into settlements that turned out to be worthless because the government that signed the deal lost an election and was replaced by another government that came in and undid the whole the whole thing. And I'm too old and too tired to go and litigate it all again. And what else did you want to know about Nader? Law school. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wanted to ask this question of you. David Baker: Yeah. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In arch's early years, you helped secure handicap as a protected ground in Ontario's Human Rights Code and press for Disability Inclusion in the Canadian Charter. What strategies and coalition moves made those breakthroughs possible? David Baker: Well let's see. Well, first of all, when I was down in the States working with Nader and the Mental Health Law Project, there was something in the process of being invented. It was called the Rehabilitation Act then, but it's come to be known as the Americans with Disabilities Act. So the Americans got there before us turning disability into a human rights issue. And the real crusaders for those rights were veterans of the war in Vietnam who returned with disabilities. They were not happy about the war, and they were even less happy about facing discrimination as people with disabilities they chained themselves to the white House fence and didn't leave until they got themselves a law which is not well known or understood here, but and their experience and I had started at that point just at that point, and both the provincial government and the Ontario government sent me down to study what was going on. And I came back and provided reports that there should be something like human rights and inclusion in the human rights code. The charter, of course, came a bit later. And so the, the government actually paid me to go down and think about it. So there were some progressive people, I would say they weren't politicians. They were actually bureaucrats who were interested in human rights. In those days, the government was supportive of human rights. Now, I would say the reverse is true generally speaking. But in those days, there was great interest in human rights, and and human rights were quite popular. We didn't have Donald Trump talking about Dei and all the stuff that's going on now with Pierre Poilievre parroting him and so on. It was it was a different time and there was quite a bit of interest in talking about human rights. And, you know, rather than a handout or a hand up, it was more about equality and what does equality mean? And that became a big part of what I did for the rest of my career. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, your graduate work in equality became, in many ways, a blueprint for section 15 litigation and fed into the landmark Andrews case. How did that scholarship shape your courtroom strategy then, and how does it still guide you today? David Baker: Well My thesis. Well, there are a bunch of stories. None of them are important. But I will just say that no one ever paid attention to my thesis that was published in the Supreme Court Law Review, of which I am aware it never got quoted by the Supreme Court of Canada, to my knowledge. However, I did use it as the basis for arguments in a number of equality cases. The strategy developed by arch and I should say when I say arch, I mean the leadership of 73 disability organizations working collectively to prioritize cases and develop strategies for cases. So arch meaning the disabled community decided to intervene in other important equality cases involving adverse impact discrimination. Discrimination that appears neutral on the face but has a disadvantaging effect on people, including people with disabilities. The initial cases had to do with a CNR employee who was sick and wanted to wear a turban instead of a hard hat, and cases involving Jewish folks who felt they should be able to shop on Sundays and not lose jobs because they Couldn't work on their Sabbath, which was different from the Christian Sabbath. So those were the initial cases that took me to the Supreme Court of Canada. David Baker: And in those cases, I used examples from my Supreme Court of Supreme Court Law Review article and disability examples. And the court was very interested in the disability examples. The chief justice at that time was a man named Brian Dixon. Chief Justice Dixon was a war veteran who was disabled in the war, lost a leg, and he. Was an early and perhaps the most important ever champion of disability rights in this country. And and deserves to be remembered as such. But he he just wanted to talk about disability, and they gave me extra time to talk, and I talked about disability, and everybody got all excited because it helped the sick and the sick case, and it helped the people who wanted to have Sunday openings for shops and didn't want to be forced to work on their particular Sabbath and, so they liked it because the disability aspects appeal to the court. And the court framed a decision that was good for them, the litigants in the cases, but also good for disability cases which came to follow. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now listeners hear the terms formal equality and substantive equality a lot. How do you explain the difference in plain language. And why does that distinction distinction matter in real people's lives. David Baker: Well perhaps just take an easy example. If there was a staircase up to the front door of a building that someone needed to get into, and that person was in a wheelchair. Formal equality says, well, you face exactly the same stares that everybody else faces. Person in a wheelchair. So you have not been discriminated against. You've been treated similarly to the person who can walk up those stairs. Substantive equality looks at the adverse impact of someone in a wheelchair being confronted by a flight of stairs and says that has an adverse impact on a person with disability, and it deepens their disadvantage as a person with a disability. And therefore, that's discrimination. Maybe I can just jump ahead to say that there is an international convention called the convention on the Rights of Persons with disabilities that is now taking up a lot of my time, and it has the inclusive Model of equality, which incorporates the substantive model and introduces a social justice and inclusive approach to what our equality issues. It gets right down into how programs operate to include or exclude and so on. So I'm, I'm these are early days and I've just filed the first Canadian case on reliance on the CRPD inclusive model of equality. So we'll find out what it all means in a in a while. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my goodness. Now, David, the duty to accommodate runs through many of your cases. What does a genuine good faith accommodation process look like for employers, schools and public services. And where do they most often go wrong? David Baker: Well I would say initially they went wrong just about every possible way because they didn't see stairs up to the front of a building has been discrimination. In other words, they didn't think in terms of adverse impact. And there have been some initiatives that have. Changed thinking about that. I mean, there was the Employment Equity Act that came and went in Ontario and basically has been effectively dismantled federally as well, but it existed for a period of time. There's the Aoda that said we'd be barrier free by now. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way, but it taught people they were supposed to be thinking substantively about adverse impact. And then there's the Accessible Canada Act. And I would say with the exception of electronic communications or ICT where there have been effective regulations provincially under the Aoda and there has been your case federally with respect to ICT accessibility which we can come to I think there are some unfortunate loose ends remaining following your case that we may have time for the, the, you know, the bottom line is that it it meant that in large employers, particularly large corporations we're told they were supposed to think substantively, even if they weren't acting substantively to remove barriers. And accommodation can be thought of quite simply as removal of the barriers to access or inclusion. And the limit on the duty to accommodate in human rights terms is undue hardship. And so your your question about what are the limits on accommodation or what are the problems that arise? I guess the problems that arise have to do with whether or not making accommodation would cause undue hardship to the person or organization required to accommodate. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, I am very aware that you have a very important dinner date. But I wanted to ask you this question. Before I ask you my final question. Eldritch established that governments must sometimes take positive steps, like funding. Sign language. Okay. Interpretation. Interpretation to ensure equality. What did that case change across healthcare and beyond? David Baker: Well, I mean Eldridge is an extremely important case for a number of reasons we don't have time to go into. I mean, the immediate and practical result of Eldridge was that doctors in private practice and hospitals had to at their own expense fund sign interpretation, if that's what was necessary for there to be what is called effective communication with a person who is deaf. And this was certainly news. I think sign interpretation was considered one of the real tough nuts when it came to accommodation. And Supreme Court just said, do it, get on with it. And as a result of that case, an awful lot of other barriers came down. But just staying with the issue of sign interpretation, we then took that case and went after the Tax Court of Canada which refused to provide sign interpreters for lawyers, articling students or witnesses in cases. And that case was won, was successful. And then we went after all the other courts in the country, and all of them quickly crumbled and agreed to provide signed interpretations. So throughout the judicial system. Sign interpretation became the norm. They're still working on language interpretation in a number of areas, which I think is inexcusable. But the bottom line was Eldridge spoke loudly and clearly that there was a need for effective communication to be provided by means of sign interpretation. If that was the means by which a deaf person effectively communicates. Now, let me hasten to say, Donna, I hope you're not cutting this interview short so we don't talk about the bad news about your case, but that's up to you. Of course you're the interviewer. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know I have room for that. Don't worry. David Baker: Okay. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, David, you are well known for being a part of the case and the very real case. Now we come to the Jodhan case. Tell me in your words, David, what really made you take this on? And you mentioned a little while ago that there are loose ends. Tell us about it. David Baker: Okay. So I took it on because this person called me up and wouldn't take no for an answer, so that was easy. Who was that? Someone named Jodhan, I do believe. And No, I mean you came and made a perfectly reasonable point. There are interactive websites, websites generally, that were inaccessible to you, and that was the primary means and becoming almost the exclusive means by which government communicates with citizens. And you couldn't use it. And that just cried out for litigation and you didn't go by half measures you took on every government website there was which was kind of unheard of, but and the government lawyers wanted to duke it out and say you had to prove every, every comma and every word here and word there was inaccessible. And the judge kind of got it. Justice. Kellen was the applications. Judge. He retired soon thereafter, by the way, and taught human rights at the University of Ottawa Law School. And I'm told the whole course consisted of the Jodhan case and nothing else but the Jodhan case. So there you go. A whole generation of law students grew up believing that's all there was to human rights. Oh, no. But the the case said that there was to be equal access. Equal access was developed by a then emergent international standard called wcaG 2.0. And to answer your second question, what happened next? The first thing that happened was the government appealed the decision of Justice Kellen. David Baker: And you were successful on the appeal, except for one thing, Justice Kellen had retained jurisdiction to receive reports and oversee the implementation of accessibility to ensure that it actually happened. And the Federal Court of Appeals said the government is composed of a swell bunch of people who can be relied upon to comply with their obligations under this decision, and therefore, Or just as Kellen will not be overseeing the implementation of his judgment. We'll just trust him. And interestingly the government bureaucrats took wcaG 2.0. I believe they consulted your expert witness in the case, Uta Treviranus in the process and started over the period of time that the government was given by the court to implement accessibility over that period of time, they said they were following wcaG 2.0 at precisely midnight on the day. The judgment said everything was to be completed. They stopped complying with wcaG 2.0, if indeed they ever had been, because we never saw proof that they did. But we now know that they are not in compliance with wcaG 2.0, and they are most certainly not in compliance with the current national accessibility standard, which is IC 301549. I'm quite proud of myself for being able to remember that which is the European standard, which is, as I understand it, in effect, in European nations. David Baker: And so they have breached the court order and a new case has been started which is going forward. The government is already raising all kinds of technical objections and threatening motions and this and that to prevent that case from going forward. And we shall see what happens. But that case goes further than looking at government websites. It involves looking at the entire range of government, ICT, information and communications technology, all of their computer systems, so that people who communicate with the government and people who communicate within the government who are not able to access information will, if the case is successful be entitled to access it up to that standard of accessibility, which has now been accepted as the national accessibility standard. But of course, it's only a recommendation. The previous government, the Trudeau government, introduced a bill that would have, with many exceptions and exemptions and extensions. Adopted in 301549 as the standard that bill has died on the order paper and I understand will not be reintroduced. Our position was if they had reintroduced it and done away with all the exemptions, extensions and so on and so forth. If they'd actually complied with N301549 then there'd be no case. But of course they have not. They will not. The legislation is not being reintroduced and the case goes forward. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh boy. So what happens next? How can I help in any way, shape or form? David Baker: Well, you could bring contempt proceedings against the government for failing to comply with your judgment. That would be interesting. And maybe the Prime Minister should be put in jail. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't. David Baker: Know. Apart from that, you are informing the public about the issues, and hopefully people will let their feelings be known about this and many other issues. We have, of course, many other cases ongoing. And I will tell you, I mean, I'm in a similar vein. There is the issue of discrimination against people with disabilities in artificial intelligence. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes. David Baker: I'm advised that artificial intelligence is an instrument for widespread discrimination against people with disabilities. People with disabilities can be set free and Gain enormously through accessible technology. Inaccessible technology slaps people in jail and traps them forever in inferior positions. Status, early retirements, lack of promotions. On and on and on and so it's a big issue. Again my understanding is that your expert in your case, you to treviranus advise the government on legislation about regulating artificial intelligence. And the government said it was interested and I think introduced a draft bill. But I'm told that will not go forward either under the current government. If it had, I think it probably would have been highly problematic because artificial intelligence is a global issue, and trying to regulate it at a national level will be highly problematic. And I'm now in the process of discussions with human rights centers in the United States, China, the EU, and so on about bringing up an artificial intelligence discrimination case against all developments of artificial intelligence and all purchases or uses of artificial intelligence crossing international boundaries. So we're looking to international law to regulate something which I think is quite difficult to regulate at a national level. David Baker: The government pulled the bill because they were concerned it would put Canadian manufacturers, if that's the term developers of artificial intelligence at a disadvantage relative to Americans, where Mr. Trump has killed all regulation of any sort. And sky's the limit in terms of discrimination. Whether Mr. Trump would pay any attention to international law in this area, as opposed to international law and any other area is doubtful. But who knows? Canadian courts have said we're going to pay attention to Canadian to Canada's international obligations and incorporate it wherever possible in Canadian law. And I'm talking to American human rights centers about developing a similar principle in the US courts. Donald Trump's appointed the majority of members of the US Supreme Court. So how far that would get is your guess? But I'm going to suggest that maybe justice will ultimately prevail, or at least sanity. And that there will be human rights in the United States again which would enable the world to stop discriminating against people with disabilities, since America will be leading with artificial intelligence until the Chinese beat them out. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am so pleased to see and hear that you are still very much involved in, you know, disability rights law. And I, I want to thank you again for having taken my case or our case. I, I don't like to refer to it as my case. It's a team case. And, you know. David Baker: Well, you were kind enough to let me in on it. So that's very, very generous of you. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you know where to find me. If there is anything you think I can do to help in any way. David Baker: Well, you know, if you want to help organize the artificial intelligence case internationally. I'm sure your assistance would be most welcome. In the meantime we go on with the cases that are on our plate at the moment, but it is in development. It is under discussion with important centers around the world, and I'm looking forward to it. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So if ever you need my assistance, you know where to find me, and I'm ready and willing. David Baker: I'll call me. When you've solved the problem of artificial intelligence and discrimination based on disability, and then I can retire. How's that? Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, you won't be. You won't be retiring yet. We need to keep you around. But seriously, if there's anything I could do in any way to help, you know where to find me. David Baker: On we go. Thanks, Donna. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. David. And if ever you wanted to come back and talk about anything, please contact me. David Baker: I'm all talked out. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Enjoy your dinner, sir. David Baker: Thank you. Take care. Bye now. Donna J, Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now. Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #52: Interview with Cathy Nyfors, Manager, Passenger Programs, Vancouver Airport Authority | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-16-2025/ In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Cathy Nyfors of the Vancouver Airport Authority to explore how YVR's non-share-capital governance keeps the community, and accessibility, at the center of every decision. Nyfors walks through the airport's co-created "Beyond Accessibility" roadmap and the philosophy of designing with lived experience: adult-size change benches and a new assisted changing place with an overhead lift; quiet/low-stim spaces; expanded tactile/Braille wayfinding; animal-relief areas; and even a yoga room. She explains how YVR's real-time "digital twin" helps teams make data-driven improvements, right down to tracking loaner wheelchairs so they're easy to find, while long-running partnerships like rehearsal tours with the Canucks Autism Network, a discreet sunflower identifier for non-visible disabilities, and the inclusive Paper Planes café (which trains neurodivergent adults) embody a human-centered approach. Nyfors also spotlights measurable progress: YVR's 2025 Skytrax win for Best Airport in North America, a Rick Hansen Foundation Gold accessibility rating, and relentless feedback loops, from customer surveys every few days to journey-mapping, that drive continuous improvement. For aging travelers and anyone who needs a hand, YVR has added curbside greeters, trialed self-driving robotic pods to bridge long walking distances, rolled out big high-contrast digital wayfinding, enabled boarding announcements in sign language, and launched one-to-one "Travel Rehearsals" so first-time or anxious flyers can practice their exact route before the big day. Nyfors closes with a simple north star for airports everywhere: listen to customers, collaborate with community, and turn insight into action. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here. Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles. She just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act, with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently on June the 3rd, 2022. I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest changemaker, whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Kathy Flores, I'd like to welcome you to my podcast, Remarkable World Commentary, and it was a pleasure to have met you. I think it was at the end of April when I attended the Air Canada Advisory Group meeting. Welcome to my podcast. Cathy Nyfors: Thank you so much Donna, and thank you for your very kind words. This is an incredible opportunity, and I'm truly honored to be a guest on the Remarkable World Commentary. I am also pleased to join remotely from the traditional and unceded territory of the Musqueam people here at YVR. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Great. Okay, so let's get started. Cathy, could you explain how the Vancouver Airport Authority's unique governance model shapes day to day decisions about the passenger experience at YVR? Cathy Nyfors: Thanks so much, Donna, for that. Great question. Well, the Vancouver Airport Authority, Vancouver International Airport is Canada's second busiest airport. We are a non share capital organization that operates YVR in truly the service of our community and the economy that supports it. Now, I know that's a little bit of a. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Mouthful. Cathy Nyfors: That I've just shared there, but I think what I really want to emphasize is that this unique governance model that YVR has really places our community at the center of our operation. The structure truly allows YVR to Are to prioritize accessibility, inclusion, and the guest experience. We use this to evaluate all of our decisions through five strategic lenses, and one of those being customer. That customer lens includes accessibility as a key component, ensuring that everyone at our airport has a seamless and inclusive experience. We've also developed a multi year accessibility plan or roadmap we've called Beyond Accessibility, which was truly co-created, working closely with our customers, our community, our employees and our guests that we serve. And I think what's really unique about this model is it supports that culture of continuous improvement, where feedback from our from our customers and our community and our employees directly influence those decisions and our operational enhancements at the airport here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I was truly impressed by your airport. I mean, I've been to Vancouver a few times. Way back in 20, I think it was 2010 and then a few times after that. But boy oh boy, what a refreshing experience. And I just like to acknowledge two of your your coworkers here. Lori is one of them. And I forget the young man's name. I was very, very impressed with the service that they offered me. I forget his name, I do apologize. Cathy Nyfors: Oh, please. No. No apologies necessary. Thank you so much. That means so much to to to me and the entire team here. To here. That that the service that they're providing is is making a difference and being acknowledged. Thank you. I will definitely pass that along. But this really appreciated and kind thank you for sharing that, Donna. It truly means a lot to us. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: You're very welcome. Now from your vantage point on the terminal floor, what does quote accessibility quotation mark mean in practical terms. And how did that philosophy guide the design of Vivres? New international departures area. Cathy Nyfors: Thanks so much, Donna. That's a great question. And I know there was a lot of a lot of great work that went into designing our new wing and our international departures area, and I think I'll just really kind of go back to, you know, folk with starting with our purpose. Really, truly. What I shared earlier is just the heart of what we do is serving our community. And I think a big part of that has always been you know, really listening and learning from our customers. The work we truly do is, is, is truly rooted in listening to to all of the users of the airport. And it's from that listening where we love gathering those insights of where are there some ways we can improve? What are some things that our customers are really liking about our terminal design? How can we learn about barriers and identify service enhancements so we can really, really bring and bring to life that designing with meaningful inclusion at our core. So our terminal expansion of our international departures area is a really exciting opportunity to to really embody and bring in that customer feedback because we are designing, you know, whole new space. So I think, you know it was such a great opportunity to, to really look at all of our customer feedback and see how we can really make our experience even better with this new, with this new space and design. I wanted to start just with a bit of a story of of where this thing really is such a key part of what we do. So one of our pieces of feedback that we had received was that there was a lack of adult change benches or assisted change rooms, and that was a barrier for some of our guests. Cathy Nyfors: And in some cases, this meant that that some of our guests were needing to use the floor for changing purposes. So as a result, what we started first with was, okay, this is this is not acceptable. We want to make a change here. So how do we add manual adult change matches to all of our existing washrooms. So we did that. Wherever space allowed we added a fold down manual change bench into our private single stall washrooms. Then we also updated our our design criteria for the airport and for any new private single stall washrooms where it would include an adult size change bench. And then with with this new opportunity of designing this new pier, we also created the design for a new assisted change room or what's often called a changing place washroom. And that includes that height adjustable change bench an overhead hoist system along with other accessibility features. Part of the new international wing also included. You know, we we did and we did create some additional private single stall washrooms, just giving more flexibility next to our public bank. We also had quiet spaces for for neurodivergent, neurodiverse travelers. We have wayfinding and and signage, including adding tactile braille signage, changing stations and and seating for comfort and accessibility. And, of course, animal relief areas. We even added a yoga space for customers to stretch, relax and exercise while they're at YVR because, you know, sometimes you have a little ways to wait before your flight. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I remember seeing that yoga room when I was in Vancouver at the end of April. I think you gave us a tour of that room as well. I was really impressed. Yeah. Cathy Nyfors: Thank you so much. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. All right. The airport leverages a digital twin analytical platform. How might a real time virtual model of the terminal Unlock new accessibility or efficiency efficiency enhancements for passengers with disabilities. Cathy Nyfors: Thank you so much. It's a great question. I think it's the digital twin is has so many exciting options available through it. And the digital twin itself is that virtual representation of our airport facility and the Musqueam lands on which we reside. This was developed by our incredible innovation team at YVR. Really, you know, using the digital twin we've been using it extensively since January 2023. It's really helped our teams to make better faster, data driven decisions that support that operational excellence, the customer experience sustainability and revenue growth. I think some of the exciting things about the digital twin is it really gives our team, you know, that one source of truth real time monitoring of our systems, you know, bringing in all the different data sources such as air traffic, passenger movements, baggage handling and hundreds of the airport systems that our teams use every single day to make sure that it's as smooth and seamless experience for customers. It really has empowered our team and stakeholders to effectively operate the airport and manage manage assets. But I always believe in sharing, you know, a story of how to your question of, you know, how can this unlock new accessibility or efficiency enhancements. So I want to share one example of how my team is using the digital twin to improve the experience and accessibility at YVR. I always like to start with customer feedback as that often where we're, where we're, we're we're starting is identifying areas where we can improve our services. Cathy Nyfors: And one area of feedback that we had received through our community consultation, was making it easier for guests to locate a wheelchair for their own use. So following this feedback, we expanded our inventory and introduced wheelchairs readily at our key entrance points and and key points where customers were looking to to borrow wheelchair. And while this improved our service for our guests, making them more readily available, we heard that our team that was required to collect them on it throughout the day and then return them to their home bases, was having a challenge to locate locate them and return them again to those entry entrance spots? So this is just where truly where technology can come into place was we added equipment trackers onto our wheelchairs, and then the visualization of their location on our one source of truth through the digital twin. So this really helped with the efficient collection, but it also gave us some information for capacity planning to make sure that we could have the right numbers of, of wheelchairs, in essence, in the right place for our customers, but also to make sure that the collection was efficient for our teams as well at the same time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I think this is great. I mean, you know, like you have guests who often get tired or, you know, like waiting around or standing around and you know, why not, you know, find a wheelchair and take advantage of it. Hey. Cathy Nyfors: Yeah. No, thank you so much. I think we wanted, you know, we wanted to have complimentary services. We know we've got, you know, our airlines are here and provide an excellent service to our guests. We have our curbside service ourselves as well. Yeah, but we had heard from guests that, you know, if they just want to borrow one to help a family member or their travel companion, we wanted to make those more readily available. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I think it's great. I really do. Cathy Nyfors: Thank you so much. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So you helped launch autism airport accessibility tours with the Canucks. Is it autism network? What key lessons emerged from those rehearsal journeys and how have they changed drivers? Why standard procedures? Cathy Nyfors: Another great question, Donna. Thank you so much. You know, this this initiative you know, started well over, well over ten years ago. So we partnered with Canucks Autism Network. We've been partnering with them since 2014. When we first designed the program, the tour program to offer neurodiverse individuals and families the opportunity to come out and rehearse the preflight process really aiming to reduce those barriers of travel and help to prepare families and individuals with what to expect and, you know, creating that more predictable environment. And I, I just need to take that moment to thank all of our government agencies and airline partners for the support in making those tours possible. Each year. We love participating in them, and it's a great opportunity for the community to come together. But to your question, apologies on on the the lessons emerged. I've got just a few examples that I, that I'd really like to share. The first one is you know, why the Canucks Autism network joined together to also create some resource kits? So these featured sort of a step by step storybook, an interactive checklist travel tips and more. And these were just created as a, as additional options for guests because, again, not everyone may have that opportunity to come out to to the annual tour, but we wanted to create different options for them. You know, based on based on feedback as well from the tour. And then at the same time, we also developed training tips for teams and partners in partnership with Autism Network. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Cathy Nyfors: The second one that I wanted to share is we also offer a sunflower program. So where a guest could choose to wear a sunflower lanyard or maybe have a sticker on their boarding pass as a, as a discreet way to let staff know they have an invisible disability. We actually did a soft launch. We we were working on our launch plans for the sunflower program. But we we chose to do a soft launch of of before we launched to the whole community here during one of our accessibility tours. And it just really gave us that opportunity to get feedback and help build awareness from staff prior to the launch. And then the third one that I, I'm hoping I could share as well is just around, you know, empowering beyond the traveler experience. I don't know if we had a chance if you had a chance to see this Donna, while you were here, the Paper Planes cafe. But we're also thinking about things, you know, beyond traveling and wider supports, you know, creating those employment and learning opportunities. And so, in partnership with the Pacific Autism Family Network, right, to create a new retail concept called the Paper Planes Cafe. And it's more than just a coffee shop. It's a place where adults with diverse abilities can gain real world paid training and employment opportunities. And I'm really, just really proud of of this incredible inclusion that this cafe is creating. And just to share just a little bit of stats is they have been able to support 22 neurodivergent trainees who've completed over 40 500 hours of hands on training at the cafe. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Okay. I don't think I got an opportunity to see that cafe. I got to get out there and see it. Cathy Nyfors: I hope next time you're here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah, I hope so, too. Gosh. Now, why? Vr has won the Skytrax and the Asai CI Customer Experience Award year after year. What metrics or feedback loops help your team stay ahead of changing traveler expectations? Cathy Nyfors: You know, we're really proud to have been voted best Airport in North America in the 2025 Skytrax World Airport Awards, which marks the 14th time in 16 years that Riviera has received this distinction. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Whoa. Wow. Okay. Sorry. Cathy Nyfors: No, that's. Cathy Nyfors: Thank you. This this honor, truly comes solely from passenger ratings and is really special to our team. Because of, really our focus on putting the guests at the center of what we do. And it's a focus of, you know, not only myself, but our entire organization. You asked a little bit about metrics and feedback loops of how we're how we're staying ahead and really listening closely to our customers. And we have a number of different variety of ways that we're doing this. We've got, you know, our online accessibility surveys. We're doing community partner consultations employee feedback as well, passenger journey mapping sessions. We look at guest experience data, direct feedback from from our customers. We also evaluate programs, specific data. You know, again learning how how how are we doing on different services, whether it be our sunflower program or others? And also our customer surveys are really key. We regularly listen to customers and speak to them in the airport to learn, you know, how how how can we find out what things are working? Well, where do we need to improve? And we've also increased that to about every 4 to 5 days so that really we can get more of that real time feedback on what's happening and so that we can take action to to improve those services if there's areas that aren't going well. And these are things we need to continue to do. We need to continue to look at those opportunities. I think of what are those different metrics and feedback areas, but we're going to continue to look at these and really identify those pain points. And how can we use this to really drive the experience and and decisions that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: You guys are very, very proactive, right? Yes. Cathy Nyfors: Yes, we're trying to be but but it truly like this feedback is means so much to us. Yeah. It really helps us to identify ways that we can make their work better. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I think that's terrific. Cathy Nyfors: Thank you so much. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Now, why VR has earned a Rick Hansen Foundation Accessibility award for inclusive Move washrooms and adult change tables. What obstacles did your team overcome to move those features from a blueprint to reality? Cathy Nyfors: Well, in 2018, Donna, we we were really proud to receive the Accessibility Certified Gold rating under the Rick Hansen Foundation's certification program. We're the first airport to receive this rating and at the time was the highest rated building. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Whoa. Okay. Cathy Nyfors: The the program itself measures, you know, the meaningful access of a building or site. And I think I spoke when I talked earlier just about the example of the adult change benches. Yeah. You know, I would say for us, the main obstacle really to solve is being creative with our space, because we have to ensure, you know, when we're talking about some of these larger washroom sizes or design requirements for adult change tables. It was really about how do we find enough space to be able to achieve these goals? Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: My goodness. Okay. Could you share a behind the scenes example where co-design with people who have lived experience, such as blind or autistic travelers, directly influenced a facility or policy? Cathy Nyfors: Yes, absolutely. Well, I would like to share a couple of examples, if that's all right. So. Sure. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Cathy Nyfors: First I wanted to share was how we launched a new program. It's called the Travel Rehearsal Program, and it offers individual support for passengers to come out in advance of book travel to preview their journey. This rehearsal is is designed in a similar way to the one I talked about with the Canucks Autism Network team, meant to reduce barriers to air travel and a chance for people to participate and practice before their trip, making the airport a more familiar less stressful place as well. But but we learned that with our group tour programs that that we offer not everyone was able to make it out to those to those tours. So we created this this travel rehearsal program which again, directly influenced from customer feedback, really allowing that opportunity for individuals to come out and and practice and prepare before their trip. So when they have booked travel which is, which is one of the requirements so that we can take a customer Post-security then we're able to, to support the guest in, in walking doing that pre pre walkthrough and pre-practice through basically the exact path that they would take that day of travel. And we can answer any questions that they might have. Talk about our accessibility services. You know, provide information and introductions to our airline partners as well. So it really was just you know, such a key program for us in enhancing enhancing what we offer through our accessibility tour programs. And I'm really happy to say that we've provided 34 of those travel rehearsals since our launch. And the feedback has just been tremendous on on how much it's making a difference. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Our other airports across Canada doing the same thing. Do you know. Cathy Nyfors: I am aware there may be more, but I'm aware of two others. I'm aware of Winnipeg and also Toronto are are both offering these individual travel rehearsal programs. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I think Cathy Saliba mentioned that in her interview. So that's why I was asking you know, if there were other airports. I think it's great. I mean, like, I for one, would love to have a rehearsal before I travel, although I do travel a lot, but I think it would be great, especially for the first time traveler. You know, they want a little reassurance and they want to know, you know, like when they take this kind of tour, they'll say to themselves, well, I know what to expect, right? Cathy Nyfors: Of course. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Reassurance. Yeah. Now aging travelers form a growing demographic. How is YVR adapting wayfinding, seating and assistance services to meet the needs of older passengers while still benefiting everyone? Cathy Nyfors: Another great question, Donna. Thank you so much. Thank you. Why we are we're really committed to making changes that benefit all travelers and improve the travel experience for all. Universal design has been a core value of ours since the very beginning, I want to share a couple of examples. The first one I want to talk about is to share our new Curbside Greeter and assistance program. As you mentioned, you talked about assistance services. Yeah. Introduced in December 2023, our Curbside Greeter program basically extends our customer experience team to the to the curb area. So of course we've been offering our customer assistance program or curbside curbside assistance program for many years. But really this curbside greeter program was an evolution of our service to have our greeters strategically stationed to welcome guests as they arrive curbside, so that we could proactively be there to provide them with information, directions assistance. And and it's it's been a real success for us. I would say from a feedback perspective, lots of amazing anecdotal feedback of of how our team has been proactively welcoming guests and, and supporting them, whether it's whether it's just navigating to the check in area or direct assistance to the check in area, whether it be through sighted guidance or or a wheelchair assistance or just help with someone's luggage. Our latest number since launching our curbside greeter program is that we've supported just under 29,000 customers year to date and growing. I'm sure it's it's it's even higher. And then the the second opportunity or. Sorry, the second example that I wanted to share was that we've also been trialing. And I think, Donna, you might have had a chance to see these while you were here, but we've we've also been trialing our self-driving robotic pot. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes. Cathy Nyfors: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I love that one. Yeah. Cathy Nyfors: Oh. Oh, great. Yeah. No, it's been. Cathy Nyfors: A lot of really learning. We've received tremendous feedback. You know, we we've 100% of, of people who have of our customers who've tried them have, have recommended have recommended, recommended their service. Apologies. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Cathy Nyfors: But you know, we've been we're really excited. We've been working with the local company and K robotics and you know, for for us, you know, of course, we have the airline service that is this is still available. This just is a service that complements this. This technology offers, you know, really guests of all ages and abilities, the opportunity to independently navigate the terminals and, and that opportunity to fully participate in all services, you know, whether it's shopping or dining or amenities along the way. And I talked a little Some of the other examples that I kind of shared, just maybe from a built environment. But thinking about the sheer size of our terminal is one of our areas of feedback that we've received is that walking through the terminal can, can really feel like long, long distance. So one example, it's, you know, 650m from our security screening checkpoint to our furthest gate. So that's really this type of technology. And service allows us to add additional options for customers and really ultimately making it easier to navigate and, and increasing that independence as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I really enjoyed that, that, you know, experience on what is it called, again. Cathy Nyfors: The robotic self, a self-driving robotic pods. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: But yeah. Cathy Nyfors: Some may call it autonomous, you know, autonomous self-driving vehicles. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I really liked it. I really, really enjoyed that. And, you know, the other thing too is I think once someone like, you know, you get to the airport and the first thing you have a curbside greeter, I think it, it, it starts things off on the right foot. You know, like it? It makes you feel. Oh, now I'm going to get good care. And I think that is really, really important. The curbside experience. You know, for me, anyway, that's what I think. Yeah. Cathy Nyfors: Well, thank you so much. I could share a little bit about our wayfinding as well. Just because I know you're just about our wayfinding. Yes. So our wayfinding is truly one that continues to evolve to to evolve. We've really we've got a really amazing wayfinding and signage teams. They're definitely you know, take all feedback to heart. They're looking at ways that they can increase font size, add better improve contrast levels. And I think a great example of that was we just recently opened up a new security screening area in our domestic travel area in our park. And, you know, we have this enormous digital sign now out front of it. So prior to that, it was it was much smaller signage and some of the font sizes would have been smaller as well. So the whole digital screens now surround the security screening entrance, making it just a lot more easier to from a location perspective. We were able to include language on both security and gates, because we found that some customers were kind of looking for 1 or 2 of those, you know, different, different interpretation of what they were looking for next. Right? And, you know, it really just allowed us that opportunity to have much larger font size that allowed us to to also have some some terminal maps there, which also talk about like the what? Like what's the walking times getting to various piers and just allowed us really to, you know, continue to evolve our wayfinding services. Again, just thinking about all of our customers who use them and wanting to make it more readable for all of our visitors. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Are you? Do you use IRA? Do you have the IRA technology at the airport? Cathy Nyfors: Yes we do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: You do? Cathy Nyfors: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: So you're up to date? Like you know, the wayfinder is great. Ira is great. Anything else that you have? Any other technology? We. Cathy Nyfors: I think one of the other ones that I can share is we also offer in flight information status that customers could sign up for. So we have all of our flight information display screens in the terminal, and we you know, of course, we have those in high contrast as well from a readability. But customers could also sign up for flight updates that come directly to their phone or by email. Okay. All of our check in kiosks and customs kiosks are all designed to meet accessibility requirements. Right. There's probably some others that I'm missing, but those are just a couple that just come to to top of mind. Oh, the other one we do have as well. We've got our translation service that's available 24 over seven for customers in over 240 languages. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Cathy Nyfors: And but also including American Sign Language as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Any audio feedback? Do you have? No. Cathy Nyfors: I'm sorry. Do you mean. What? Sorry. Meaning? So our paging system. So our announcements are available in audio and visual format. And also include sign language at our boarding gates as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Okay. For airports considering similar inclusion efforts, what budget neutral or low cost changes have proven surprisingly impactful at Why VR? Cathy Nyfors: That's a great question. Thank you so much. I think the one that I wanted to share from from the low cost you know, and that had a really wonderful impact was in 2024 I talked about this just just a moment ago, but why? They're introduced our sign language video boarding messages in three languages. So American Sign Language, Quebec sign language, and international sign on all of our gate information screens. And these messages complement our existing audio and visual announcements, ensuring seamless communication for our customers. And I think, you know, so so basically, when an airline agent triggers, you know, the boarding messages, it's displaying it in all of those different formats. So the audio visual and also sign language feedback has been tremendously positive. You know, with one example that I can share was, you know, I feel so happy and relaxed because I don't have to worry about ground staff or asking ground staff for help when they're busy. You know, thank you for thinking of the deaf community. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: My goodness. Okay. Why why VR collaborates with border agencies, airlines and retailers and community groups. How do you cultivate a shared accessibility mindset among partners who may have very different priorities? Cathy Nyfors: You know why VR has developed our multi year accessibility plan beyond accessibility. And a big part of that plan is our four killer four pillars four main pillars that we've developed, which is leadership, engaged community experience and design. Sign, and a key part of that engaged community is really making sure that we're working collaboratively with our partners to create that inclusive experience across all touch points. So we do this in a number of ways. You know, we we, we connect regularly with our partners from from building awareness of our services, working group meetings exploring ways that we can really work together to remove barriers or, you know, to trial new innovation. And I thought I would share one example today of, of just that, that work of our partnership you know, with our airline partners. So we partnered with Sierra Seaplanes. So we have a full plane service here also at YVR. It's closer to our terminal. And so wyverns are seaplanes work together to introduce a new lift at their YVR floatplane plane which is again based near the cell terminal. So this this new lift was designed to make travel seamless for guests with mobility needs by making it easier to board and exit from a float plane. I know when I've traveled by float plane myself, you know, it's kind of going up those stairs. It might be a little rocky, depending on the things. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Cathy Nyfors: You know, but this innovative lift was designed by local company Aircraft Access Solutions and is making a real difference in reducing barriers to our regional and remote communities that we served. And basically to kind of give it a bit of a description the lift basically connects with the dock and then the float plane, and it allows the guest to move up onto the float plane in a seated position for both entering and exiting the plane, again, making it making it really seamless and removing that barrier where in some cases some customers who are using wheelchair may or may not have been able to take a float plane previously. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I think for me, I've never taken a float plane, but it makes me want to take one, you know, just to try it out and see. Because I know a lot of people do get nervous about, you know, stepping off the float plane and onto the dock or wherever they, you know, they have to. So I think this is great. Yeah. Okay. So many passengers recognize why RVers, green coat volunteers, what training principles did you develop for them and how do those volunteers reinforce the airport's customer service culture? Cathy Nyfors: Well, thank you so much for the great question about our volunteer team. You know, we're really proud of this volunteer program. I'm going to give a shout out to Drew Pancratz, the manager of our incredible volunteers here. You know, they've been in place since 1989 here at YVR. And today we have a team of 375 amazing volunteers who come in seven days a week here at YVR. And I think what's so special about them is they really are here and so dedicated to inclusion and service. They're often that first point of contact. They, they really play that vital role in welcoming guests, helping to inform them and just making sure they're there. They have that, that supportive environment. You talked a bit about the training principles. They all of the volunteers through their orientation go through many days of orientation training. They also complete our overall accessibility training program called respectability. And then we also bring in partners such as Pacific Autism Family Network to provide some. Cathy Nyfors: Training as well. Right. Cathy Nyfors: We have offered some unique classes as well, such as Parkinson's and dementia friendly travel training as well for our green coat team. And you know, they are so dedicated. This team, they also come in and support a lot of our accessibility initiatives, you know, from our travel rehearsal program to our community events such as what we talked about earlier for Canucks Autism Network or Spinal Cord Injury BC and many, many more. You know, they this team really takes inclusion to heart. And I wanted to share one one last example just on our volunteer team is they even created they are really great about sharing feedback. And one of our volunteers came forward and, and brought forward the idea of they wanted to create a French language training program. And they wanted to help to make our team to feel more comfortable in serving our guests in into official languages. And they do so much on accessibility. But I just wanted to say inclusion is just part of what they do, including even having an amazing team who brings forward ideas of of new ways that that we can help to serve our customers well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: This is terrific. I'm really impressed. I got to go live out in Vancouver now. A. Cathy Nyfors: Well, you'll be very welcome. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. I have one final question for you. If every airport worldwide could adopt one change tomorrow to make air travel more welcoming and inclusive, what would you choose and why? Cathy Nyfors: Well, Donna, that's a really tough one to pick. To pick one thing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Give it a go. Cathy Nyfors: I feel like I have a list, but but, you know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: You could give us more than one if you want, but. Cathy Nyfors: I think for me you know, I, I think what what truly drives us and what I would say is that from that, accessibility is a continuous journey of inclusion. And I think for me that really if I had to pick one thing, it would be on really focusing on listening to our customers, collaborating with our community, but then also implementing those changes. I think those are really key. And I feel like that's, you know, I have to go back to like the heart of what we do is, is our purpose of serving our community. And we want to make sure that we're choosing the right things. We're really identifying those areas for meaningful access and meaningful inclusion. And I, I feel like that one thing that I think really drives all of that is making sure that we're listening and learning from our customers and employees and community. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Kathy, it has been a pleasure having you on our podcast, and I invite you to come back, you know, in a few months, in a year's time, we want to know more of what why VR is doing. I mean, like, to me, it sounds as if, like you, you're pretty well ahead of other airports across Canada. I don't know if I'd get into trouble for saying that, but I'm truly, truly impressed. And anytime you feel you want to share something with us, please let us know. Cathy Nyfors: Thank you so much, Donna. Like thank you for your kind words. It really it truly means so much to me and our team. And, you know, we if there's, you know, any of your listeners are looking for more information on our services. You know, those are available at wivb.com. But we also welcome any further feedback on ways we can improve our experience. We're going to be launching our next three year plan in June 2026 next year. So but you know, I think thank you for being on this journey of inclusion with us is what I also wanted to say. And thank you, Donna, for your the incredible work that you're doing with this podcast. And I just am so grateful and honored to be given this opportunity to to be a guest on your podcast. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: I am honored to have had you, and I would like you to say hello to Lori and that wonderful young man. I wish I could remember his name, but oh my gosh. He was very innovative. I think it was the day before the federal election, and he had his way of, you know, having a survey of what people were thinking in a very diplomatic way. So say hello to him for me. Cathy Nyfors: Well, thank you so much, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: So have a great rest of the day. Thank you very much. And we'll talk again soon. Cathy Nyfors: That sounds wonderful. Thank you very much, Donna. We'll talk to you soon. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Thanks, Cathy. Take care now. Cathy Nyfors: Take care. Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLC, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #51: Interview with Alan Ma, Founder, Toronto Blind Tennis, | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-14-2025/ In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with community sport builder Alan Ma, widely credited with introducing blind and low-vision tennis to Canada, to trace how a brief BBC clip sparked a national movement. Alan recounts two years of knock-backs before a local church opened its doors, the values-first volunteer culture that kept the program resilient, and the eventual creation of Change Through Sport to house Toronto Blind Tennis alongside Rexdale Volleyball. He and Donna explore the nuts and bolts of sustainability, from $11 audio balls sourced from Japan to partnerships with the TDSB that secure accessible gym space, always with the goal of turning sport into a welcoming, barrier-busting community hub. They go courtside on the craft of inclusion: orienting players with tactile and audio cues, teaching the signature "scooping" motion, flexing equipment and roles to fit each athlete, and using B-classifications (e.g., extra bounces for B1) as a runway rather than a gate. Alan shares how sister efforts took root in places like Montreal and Coquitlam, the new OTF-backed resource kit to help mainstream clubs add blind tennis, and practical advice for facility managers, start with a conversation, then make space. The episode closes with program updates (twice-monthly Friday sessions returning indoors in Scarborough) and Donna's promise to get back on court, proof that persistence and community can turn one idea into lasting change. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invite you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here. Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. In July of 2019, I call it the Accessible Canada Act. With more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently on June the 3rd, 2022. I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery studio, you'll find me coaching blind kids with vision, kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping to helping companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. Guess I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Alan Ma, welcome to my podcast. It's a pleasure to have you. Alan Ma: Yeah. Thank you. Donna. Yeah. I'm not so sure I'm going to be able to live up to the title you just gave me, but I appreciate it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, I've known you since 2012, and I was always impressed by what you started up, so let's hear all about it. And, Alan, many listeners may not know your origin story. You are right. Widely credited with introducing blind and vision impaired tennis to Canada in 2011. What first sparked that idea for you and what did those earliest months actually look like? Alan Ma: Yeah. Thanks, Donna. It is. You know what? Thinking all the way back, I still remember I was just coming back from working overseas and returned to Canada, and I was watching a BBC. Documentary. And it showed me and it was a very quick segment within the, the larger one hour program that there were folks in England playing blind tennis. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Alan Ma: And I credit I believe back then it was Metro. Metro sport. And I reached out to them afterwards because I was just astounded. I didn't know such a adaptive sport was being played and myself being a tennis lover. I'm not I'm not great in tennis, but I can get by coach a bit here and there in different communities. So I thought, oh, you know what? Let me just reach out to them and then do some research around Canada to find out if others are already offering this this sport, adaptive sport. And I'll go volunteer. And so I reached out, you know, simultaneously to UK sports just saying, like, oh, this is amazing, blah, blah, blah, trying to get an understanding of like, how far the reach where the sport come from and at the same time doing my homework in the GTA, Greater Toronto Area just reaching out to different blind sporting organizations, mainly to start and just asking, oh, do you run this program? I'd love to, you know, come and volunteer. Wow. Lo and behold, nobody ran it. And I kept digging and kept digging. And then I asked around Cnib, Canadian Blind Sports, Ontario Blind Sports Association. Alan Ma: Nobody was offering this. So that's sort of the Eureka kind of moment for me is to sort of think about, you know, what? This doesn't currently exist in Canada. How can one, you know, get it started, offer it so that others may benefit the sport that I love. Right? I mean, I came into the sport really late in my 20s, so it's not like I grew up playing tennis. You know? I wasn't part of any particular tennis club. You know, growing up watching parents play and then getting to know the community that way. I was I was I was like you know sort of upstart in the tennis world, right? I sort of worked in you know, I coach because I was great with kids. So I, you know, during my university days I would coach a lot in different communities and that, you know, that love for coaching being able to offer a sport to others and being able to offer support, I enjoyed. Right. That was the sort of main kind of factors that got me started in just asking questions and eventually piloting it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. I first joined the blind tennis group in 2012, and I was active through the end of 2016. From my vantage point, you and your team built something very special. How did Toronto blind tennis move from a small experiment into a sustained community program? Alan Ma: The sustainability, I think it depends on one's perspective, right. Of, you know, I think everything comes in seasons. And I think starting out going back a little bit earlier to the origin story you know, I waited for about a year and a half to two years of just getting rejected by many, many different organizations because I didn't want to just be on my own. Right? I wanted to work with another organization, partner up. But everyone said no, right. And I can understand, you know, the I don't have family members with the visually impaired world, so nobody knew who I was. Right. So who is this person coming in to say, like, we're going to offer a new sport to Canadians, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alan Ma: Yeah, I can understand and know. And people didn't want to take on the liability of that. Right. Starting a new program without even knowing who this coach is. And also I can understand because having worked in the not for profit charitable sector for almost two decades now, it's accessibility. Funding is hard to come by, especially when it's in sports. Right. So a lot of these established organizations, they are already probably pretty tight, right, in terms of their funding and to be able to take on additional risk. So the sustainability part, I think is always going to be in question for us. We were just very blessed with having a very good pool of volunteers who you know, came through for different seasons. And then once you know, certain percentage of those volunteers wanted to move on to other things, we were able to have others join for a couple years. Because ultimately it it really doesn't cost that much. Right? To run the blind tennis. Right? Nowadays it costs more because of just since the pandemic facility costs is just much higher. The balls that we buy from Japan. They're $11 per ball before shipment and everything, so it's quite expensive, but they can last a bit longer than, you know what the regular balls we use on the site of tennis courts. Right. Alan Ma: But sustainability, it was really just, you know, having the right group of volunteers who weren't careless with their own ego, I would say. Right. Because, yeah, we get a lot of folks that want to develop the best player. Right. They live sort of vicariously through their players. Right. But I think we were able to screen out folks that probably weren't really in line with our sort of community aspect of what we were trying to do. Right. And then in the beginning, it was really just my own local church that said, you know what, Alan? Present the sport to us, the elders. We'll see if it makes sense that we can offer this as a sort of loving initiative to the neighbors, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Alan Ma: And so my local church was the first group that we were able to partner with, and it was ran out of the, the, our warehouse kind of gym right where we played. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember that. Yes. Alan Ma: Yeah. We've been there for many years. Right. It's only because of the pandemic and things have to shift. And we sort of grew and as we were coming out of the pandemic, we were able we were fortunate to work with the TDSB to get one of the local gyms in Scarborough and they were able to offer it in the beginning free of charge to our program. But nowadays they, they charge a small fee for us. But still, it is manageable. Right. And I think these kind of factors have to sort of all align in order something that, you know, we're not striving to make profit, right? So. Right. It's not like we're charging the same marketable rate that other folks would spend on indoor tennis programs during the winter or the summer. Right. In order to keep their programs and services alive. So for us, it's a lot of grant writing finding the facilities that are low cost accessible for our community and then just finding a great pool of volunteers in Jerome since I moved to Montreal. Jerome, one of our original volunteers, have taken the mantle, and he's one of the co-founders. When we incorporated as a not for profit organization that tennis is housed under. Right. So I think we're just really blessed to have great people come along the way. Right? And who knows what the sustainability, you know, in terms of does it go on forever, right? I don't know, but for the for the season we're in, we're still here. We still have committed volunteers and coaches who are really enjoying being part of the community, and the players themselves are enjoying it. So yeah, we'll keep on going until we see maybe the end of the tunnel may come some day. Some day, but not for now. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Right now. Change through sport is the umbrella you co-founded, and it now houses the Toronto Blind Tennis and Rexdale Volleyball. In practical terms, what problem were you trying to solve with CTS and how does that structure help you remove barriers for participants? Alan Ma: Yeah, like the organization really came about when my friend and I who's the founder of the Rexdale volleyball program in the west side of Toronto He was running. He was coaching there. He was a teacher of the TDSB, and he was running a volleyball program that was for young people in his the Rexdale community where he was teaching. And we both were utilizing sports to build community to open up new opportunities to our participants. And when the pandemic came and we we chatted about this before the pandemic, because by the time we got into, like the shutdowns, we both have been running our, you know, volunteer initiatives for close to ten years or more than ten years. And we said, hey, should we combine forces together? Should we take it more seriously and build more infrastructure? So that goes to your question about sustainability, right? Can we go for it a little bit longer and then have something that we can pass on to other people if they want to take up the mantle, if our time is going to, you know, come to an end someday. So the registering as a not for profit it gave us at least that sort of initial, you know, in the world, in the eyes of the world. Right? Eyes of the world. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Alan Ma: These these kind of, you know, structures and registrations, things on paper. Right? It's like, oh, now you're legitimate. But, you know, for ten years before we've been doing this work and, you know, volunteering our time and committing ourselves to supporting one another. But that became our sort of, like, gateway to a different season for what we've been doing. Right. So that now when we do apply for grants, it's not just a volunteer group. Right? It is a registered organization. We have financial records. We have this history of work which includes our volunteer days. Right. When the two initiatives were just my friend, my friend and I leading it and now we've gone into, you know, building new partnerships due to being incorporated with different organizations in Montreal and also Barrie, Ontario. Now just recently this year. So we our focus is still pretty much the same as what we did with the Toronto Blind Tennis and Rexdale volleyball is to utilize sports to support what we would characterize as more vulnerable communities or historically marginalized communities so that they have access to sport. And through sport. We get to talk about, you know, social development, economic development and a bunch of other fun stuff that we can sort of leverage sport for. So the first point is still get on court, let's play together, let's build community. Yeah, that's the initial sort of premise. And then afterwards, then we can do other things. Alan Ma: And even two years ago. Right. We were let's see one of our Rexdale youth and one of our youth. We piloted a new project management kind of initiative. Right. So where we allow them to have a small budget and we taught them a few things about project management, and we let them, you know, devise and organize and design a fun community event. Right. And the youth from the Blind Side she was excuse me fully blind. And she worked with her sighted brother. And together they put on an event of multi sport for our community. Right. They had a budget. They used the budget to, you know, organize what they want to buy for equipment prizes and so on and so forth. Right. And the same thing for our Rexdale youth ran something for the Rexdale community. So these are sort of like the other steps that probably people don't really know as much from what we do with CTS because they engage with us. Right. Primarily through sports and playing the sport. But behind the scenes, we do a lot of other types of development, and we want to continue to sort of flesh that side out as well, so that others get more of a stronger sense of how sports can be leveraged for their own personal development and, you know, striving for their aspirations in life. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So tennis is not the only thing that that you know is here. Right. Alan Ma: Yeah. We got volleyball from the volleyball side blind tennis. And then we, we help support, you know some other provinces to start their blind tennis initiatives. In Montreal Barrie. We do skating multi sports. Yeah. So we, we're not just stuck on one sport. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Any skating. Alan Ma: We're not snobs, Donna. We're not snobs. We we. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, you're not snobs. I know that I've always known that. Any skating in Toronto? Alan Ma: Yes, we we piloted it with another organization on the west end of Toronto, where we brought a lot of their more black and racialized youth in the winter that, you know, sometimes they're a little bit more hesitant in the winter sports. Right? So we try to help them or support them in understanding, hey, if you're not in that space, you have no voice there, right? So if you want to have a voice in, you know, Canadian winter sports, or at least you don't want to keep telling yourself, oh, winter sports, skiing. Skating is not for me. It's not part of my. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah. Alan Ma: You sort of self talk yourself out of them, right? So yeah, we ran a pilot together when we first incorporated actually, and we took them skating and then we took them into a ski trip, so. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Alan Ma: So that was a fun thing. So we used that sort of approach and model, and we developed our current partnerships that I have in Montreal as well, and the ones in Barrie too. So that initial was a skating program in Toronto was almost like a proof of concept for us, right, of utilizing the sport. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. Now you've trained a large volunteer cohort and welcome dozens of participants over the years. What does good volunteer preparation look like for blind tennis, and how do you keep volunteers engaged and growing season after season? Alan Ma: Yeah, so I want to make sure just for the listeners. Right. Yeah. It's not it's not like, you know, our volunteers never quit, right? They move on. Right. So it's just like, just like any program, any different volunteer services. Right? Of course. But we've just been really keen on number one for volunteers who don't come. Screen Reader: From out of left brain. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Alan Ma: That don't come from a tennis background or rackets. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alan Ma: We try to make sure their point of entry is lower too. Right. So a lot of initial. You don't need to be a certain level to play tennis. What we look for is a caring person. That's number one. Tennis part. We can help you get better. And and playing tennis so that you can feel more adequate as you train with our participants. Right. So that's number one. So we try to take away that initial sort of cloud over somebody. Right. And number two, we were very fortunate in the very beginning when we ran our pilot in Toronto to have other organizations come in to teach our volunteers how to engage with folks who have vision loss. So we did a big workshop, and we ran it for the first couple of years, every season just to remind, you know, the core group, some basic things, right? Like, for example, I think these things will always stick with me, right? How to walk with somebody? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Alan Ma: Right elbow. How to use nonverbal cues with your arm. Your speed so that they get a sense of what's coming up and when to speak. Like, oh, we're going through a single door right now. And then, you know, you tuck in your elbow and then so they know to go, right. Hitting certain objects along the way so that they know, like a chair leg sticking out in the middle of a hallway and so on and so forth. Right. Yeah. And we and we still use though, a lot of that audio cueing. Right, for when people get on court. Right. We walk you to the baseline, we walk you to the net so you get a sense of the distance. We hit the post so that, you know, you know, the the width of the net and so on and so forth. Right. So those lessons that were passed down to us in those initial blind tennis workshops by another organization. And I'm sorry, folks who who ever left that organization, I just can't I try to look back, but I can't remember who it was. But they were so generous by coming to our the church at that time. Right. To run the the workshop for us. And then we just copied and, you know, added and adjusted what we needed for our context to the future volunteers. But nowadays, it's like, you know, we have a, a lot of institutional memory, right, with different volunteers. So one of the main things we do now is actually get them to come out and experience the community first. And that's that's actually part of the assessment that we do. Right. How do they interact with people? Are they warm? Are they inviting? Are they a snob? Are they a tennis snob? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Yes, yes, yes. Alan Ma: We want to weed out certain people. Right. And, you know, it's like filling up a form and so on and so forth. It never beats, you know, really sensing their presence. Right. So we do that and we we lower a lot of the sort of initial like, you need to sign up for this season if you're going to volunteer for X number of sessions, right, come out first, you know. Community. Oh, yeah. Get a sense and we will assess you at the same time. Right. And then afterwards, if things go well together, both from our side and your side. Okay. Now, fill up this form, and then we move on to some paperwork. Get the police checks done. Right. And then afterwards, a little bit more training. And then But mostly just learn along the way. Right. And then, as we sense that they may be more capable sometimes with the racket, maybe you get to engage with more rallying situations with some of the other players. Right. So there are different aspects and different roles that different volunteers can fulfill. But number one, again, we, we really look for people that are that have a caring heart. Right. And you can't it's hard to like, act that way and fake. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No you can't. Alan Ma: Right. You can do it initially, but, you know, cracks will appear, and then that's what we are. You know, our team, you know, word gets around, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alan Ma: You get to sit down and say, hey, you know what? This is not for you. And this is just not a good fit for our community, right? But fortunately, we've we've had very little people that had to do that, right? I mean, some people, eventually they they vet themselves out, right? Because after having a couple of different conversations with them. Right. They just like they know we're on their case. So, yeah, they they sort of take themselves out of the equation. Yeah. So that's why we try to do our best. Back to your main question of how to sort of lower the barrier of entry for the volunteers. And then just giving them, excuse me and just asking to write, what would you like out of this, this experience. Right. And a lot of them are just thrilled, actually being able to be part of an initiative. That number one, for those who come from a tennis world, share the sport. Right? Number two, for those who come from maybe different kind of backgrounds, not necessarily tennis related. Many of them feedback. Many of the feedback is they just love the community, right? They just love being able to engage with different people volunteer their time in a place where they find, you know, has impact, right. So those are generally the, the, the feedback and comments we give. There are hopefully, maybe when we get stronger financially. Right. And we as we continue to build up CTS, we can offer more developmental pathways to, for the volunteers, right. Should that be something that they're interested in? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's a lot more than tennis. And it's a step by step approach, right? Alan Ma: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And sometimes you take a few steps back. Right. Different variables happen and you just find different ways to make sure the core elements, right are are maintained and you stick you stay close to your mission. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So accessibility is more than equipment. It's culture. It's logistics And design. Walk us through a typical session, from newcomer intake and orientation to the way that you structure drills, to the cues that you give volunteers, so that blind and low vision players feel safe, confident and challenged. Alan Ma: Yeah, yeah. I mean, for us as a as a big learning curve, right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alan Ma: There weren't any other, you know, blind tennis programs we can visit in Canada. So a lot of the technical know how we had to learn by, you know, getting information when I reached out to UK. And then later on, they introduced me to Ayako who was, I believe she was one of the original, maybe the teacher guy who was the person who founded blind Blindness in Japan in 1984. Oh, he's passed on since then. But the teacher, Ayako, is still involved in the International Blind Tennis Association. So I was put in touch to her through the UK group. And, you know, just trying to learn from afar. And back when we first started video, YouTube was, you know, starting to get a little bit more use. So they had post whatever footages that they had back, and at least that gave me a visual reference of, okay, all right. I see how they've sort of set this up the spacing and learning the very unique scooping motion, right. For a lot of the B1 to B3 players. Right. Alan Ma: And so the learning for the adaptive sport came through those initial kind of exchanges. Changes. But for us, it was really just learning on the on the go to. Right. And one of our big philosophies and Jerome does this amazingly is that. Ask questions. Ask lots of questions. Right. And be attentive. And try not to have a lot of our sort of sighted biases take over. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right? Yes, yes, I understand. Yeah. Alan Ma: I mean, we were told during our initial training when we first got started, and it's always a good reminder, you know, you can't just say, come over here or stand over there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Alan Ma: Look at me. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, look at me. Alan Ma: No, those. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Things. Alan Ma: Don't have a strong reference or at all any reference for somebody who may be visually impaired. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right, right. Alan Ma: So there was a lot of figuring out, okay, what audio cues would make sense. And it was a lot of feedback. Right. We would ask questions. Hey, Donna. So I want you to stand with your legs crouched and observe. Right. Is it? Yeah, yeah. That description give you enough. And then if not right, I. Maybe you remember. I would say it's okay. Donna. Excuse me. I'm going to bend my knees now, and I want you to put your hands on my knees and you'll get, like, a sense of the angle, right, of how I'm crouched right now. And. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, do I remember all those days. Alan Ma: Yeah. I'll be your ready position. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alan Ma: So there's a lot of that accommodations in terms of learning to coach in a different way. Right? Yeah. And as you were within your question. Right. For different players, it's all different, right? There's a general principle, right, that we're going to do a lot of questioning Q and Q and A back and forth. Right. And there's a general approach to how you would do the scooping motion. Right. But if somebody has has an injury, right? And there are certain motions that they can't. For example, if you remember, the crushing motion requires you to bend your back. Right? And your knees. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes. Alan Ma: And that can be quite tiring over like long rallies and durations, right? Especially when you're really trying to focus on hitting the ball and moving your body to cut off the path of the ball. Right. So adaptations get a longer racquet so the player doesn't have to bend their backs as much, but there's a trade off, right? Of all kind of things. Longer racquet means less, you know, sensitivity to the ball because you're now further away from your hand. Right? Yeah. The closer you are to touching the the sort of face of the racquet where the strings are, the more feel you get, right of sensing the, the ball on the strings when they, when you meet it. Right. So different trade offs for different you know, situations. But the Q&A is where we're we'll be asking, hey, Donna, we're going to let's let's try with a longer racquet. And then you let me know if you prefer this one. Right. But maybe we won't hit the ball as frequently. Right? And so that allows us to approach the development of each of the participants in different ways. And sometimes, you know maybe the shuffle step doesn't work well, right? So we have to do more like a one footed, open open step. And maybe we just need to think of it as. Okay, so if the shuffle step isn't going to work well in this situation, maybe this person will have to play doubles more as opposed to singles, right? Because if you just open, you open your one foot one way, you can probably just make it across two steps quickly. Right. And you're going to, you know, lose a little bit of your momentum afterwards. Right. Because it's a more explosive step. Right. So anyways, you know different ways of I would, I would like to imagine even when I coach with, you know, folks with different abilities, I mean, in, for example, in Montreal, we had we were working with refugees claimants. And one is so unfortunate, one of the girls had her two legs amputated. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Alan Ma: We were, like, messaging different Paralympic athletes skating worlds to figure out what type of skates would be conducive that can hold her weight. Right. And allow her to enjoy a little bit of that joy of gliding on ice. Right. And so we adapted. Right. And there's a lot of different thinking and asking the questions. Right. And getting feedback so that we can use that information from the participants to say, okay, so let's if if it is hurting this way, let's think of a different way to alleviate that first sort of barrier. Right? We definitely don't want people playing blind tennis or skating or playing volleyball to have pain, right? That beats the pleasure of playing sports. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Alan Ma: So so with the blind tennis, we were just learning along the way. And just like our other sports figuring out what may work for certain individuals and for the large, for the larger extent, what approach, what principles would work? Well, generally. And then finding small adjustments and adaptation so that the participant has the best experience that they can have. Right? And sometimes the sport isn't that that that important to them? For them it's the community. So ensuring that, for example, we have plenty of tea and and water time so that participants. Yes with volunteers and people can chat. Right. Yeah. It's not just about hey, get back on court, Donna. Right. We're gonna go to the Paralympics. What are you doing? Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, Lordy. Alan Ma: So we really config based on, you know, the wands and the desires of our participants. Right. So I think those more human aspects of coaching and accommodations should be considered, I think. And it's not just the technical aspects of how do you hold a racket if you can't see. Right. Yeah. Those things we can get around by feel eventually. Right. But I think it's for me, for us, it's a it's a sort of like a larger understanding of why we exist. What do people really want out of the experience and engagement? And how can we keep the core principles and our approaches to teaching, but find ways to incrementally improve the experience and adjust and accommodate based on, you know, particular needs of each person? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think when I come back to blind tennis, I'm going to have to start all over, you know that. Alan Ma: You know what? It's just like riding a bike. Donna. Come on. Everyone starts over every season. Everyone will miss. Everyone will have their glory moments here and there. And then there's a lot of, you know, just like every sport, right? You got to pick up the balls. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you starting back indoors in early November, right? Alan Ma: Yeah, yeah. So we got the gym again in Scarborough this season. Jerome will be and Jerome is a trooper. This this this gentleman does not want to take a break between. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no. Alan Ma: Season to the indoor season. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alan Ma: Goodness. But yeah, we got a gym space again from the TDSB. And we'll be out in Scarborough this year. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What? What date? Do you have a date? Alan Ma: Yep. So we're we're sticking to our yeah. Twice a month on the Friday evenings. We find that is, you know, not too taxing and it gives some variety to other participants between gold ball skiing. Oh, yeah, and those who are still running in the winter. Right. Yeah. Blind hockey, of course. And there's blind soccer now, right? So that's how it's called. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good lord. Alan Ma: In Mississauga, I think. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alan Ma: But it just I like part of our hope, right? Is always we would wish that, you know, every segment of society gets to have just as much opportunities as, you know, like, for example, if I choose the sighted world. Right? So if there are, you know, over 200 clubs, sighted tennis clubs in Toronto, and we're the only blind tennis initiative, it's sort of like it sort of sucks that everyone has to travel so far. Just. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Alan Ma: Blind tennis. And so this OTF grant that we got this past year is us building up a resource and just allowing other folks around the city, at least to start. Right. And Toronto to get an understanding of. Oh, it's not that hard to actually add, you know, some blind tennis equipment if there is folks with visual impairment in your neighborhood. And now they can access your site, the club. Right. Play on the same courts as you. So that's part of our hope that the the module, the resource we're building up will be utilized. And we've visited, you know, different places throughout the summer. And some are sounds like some may, may have some buy in. Right. We'll see. I'm not gonna say their names yet. These clubs, but maybe in the future after going through some of the workshops with us, they would like to offer unique opportunities for those who may have vision loss in their neighborhood and come to play tennis at their clubs. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now, your Toronto program has helped sister efforts in Montreal. Right. And New Glasgow, what did you learn about replication and what must stay consistent and what needs to flex for local context. Alan Ma: Yeah, I'll probably answer this in different ways. So I would say, number one, our principle is not to own those programs. They're not like if I want to talk to more corporate terms, they're not our assets. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Alan Ma: We want others to take the sport just like any sport, and feel that they can mold it and they can teach it. They can improve it the way that fits their community. Right? So for us, it started with just other people getting wind of what we've been doing. So Quebec blind sports came down. And they visit our program somewhere, I think like 2016, some somewhere then and then afterwards, lo and behold, they started their own sound tennis program, and it runs to this day. And I visited them. So in Montreal I would say the last time I visited they told me they had very little B1 players. So we in Toronto is the opposite. We have a large contingent of B1, B2 players. Right. Okay. And we've had the I don't know what specifically. Maybe the type of willingness to go through this is difficult to get somebody to get to that rally stage. Right? So we had the sort of personnel to want to go and continue to work on that. And maybe it's also a bunch of the B1 players are all friends, so they like coming together. Maybe that's that's part of the reason. So I can see variation in differences. So they in Montreal, they have a lot more of the higher sighted players playing the sport less so of the completely blind B1 to B2 levels. Alan Ma: In Coquitlam. It's been a long time. So I went over there for work, and then I took a few days off to visit their program and train the volunteers. But they went on their own. We gave them the contacts. They purchased their own balls. Actually, same for the Montreal group, too, right? And Coquitlam, that was ran out of a club when it first started. And then eventually they got support from the BC Blind Sports Association. So now it's a host under the the governing body. So they still run it, but I think part of their I guess with any initiative. Right. I think they might be having a hard time finding the returning volunteers to come back again and again. Keep going. Right. And because they're in Coquitlam, they're a little bit further away from, you know, your downtown area. So a lot of the players it takes a long time to trek over there. So maybe they just the location itself. I'm not quite sure. But I hope that they'll continue. And New Glasgow. That was a very brief one. We don't really have because that was a city initiative that came to us that said, hey, we're thinking about. And that was done during the pandemic finding a sport for visually impaired community that doesn't have to force them to come into contact. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Alan Ma: Catch Covid back then. And it was the early stages when all the shutdowns were happening. So they were looking for different sports that can keep folks active. And so we gave them the contacts, helped them get connected with the manufacturers in Japan to get them the ball so that at least the participants can throw the ball at the wall. And they can purchase the racket and they have enough space. They can sort of rally against the wall. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Alan Ma: Don't really know how far they've moved on from that. And then Alberta reached out to us a little bit just to learn about the sport. Not quite sure if they've started anything yet. But these are. We weren't. We're not trying to control, you know, the their development right there, how they built up the program up there out of our jurisdiction. And we want to also respect, you know, different, different visionaries, you know, folks that want to initiate it. And we don't want to inundate them with, like, this is how we do it. So you better do it the way we did it. Right? Yeah. We don't want any of that kind of type of strings attached. Right. We're just happy that they're interested and that another province may have this opportunity for the visual visually impaired community to try to support. Right, as opposed to just hearing it from through their contacts of gold ball blind hockey and different sports. Right? Oh, yeah. There was that program in Toronto, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Alan Ma: Yep. Yeah. So so that's my way of answering your question. It's not it's not really like our focus to scale. Right. That's not we're actually hoping to just motivate and encourage others to essentially utilize your existing resource. You just need to open the doors, the balls. Yeah, you need to pay a little bit more than, you know, regular sized tennis balls. But it's worth it if your community is really interested in getting more active and having more variations of sports available to them. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Can you tell me what is the difference between a B1 player and a B2 player? Alan Ma: Yeah. So it's it's a way that the folks who design the sport try to make the sport more accessible. So the B1 players they would typically so the B1 sorry, the B classifications are mainly used I think to my knowledge with the sports. Right. The Paralympic sports, I think B3 is usually the highest category but non sort of official sports they'll use all the way up to B5. B5 has the most amount of site left for the participant. B1 has their legally blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Totally blind. Alan Ma: Legally blind. So each levels would have different set of rules, right? For play. So B1 player will get a maximum of three bounces before the point is over, right? So bounces a fourth time on your side of the court, then you lose the point. Whereas initially, as you go up the different levels, you have less and less bounces. But for context, and in the module that we're putting together, we actually just encourage like if you're a community that just wants to get people playing, don't be so fixated on the sport. I mean, the rules. Sorry, but use unlimited bounces, right? Get them to get out there. Just chase after the ball. Like get their body acclimatized to the audio cues. Right. And how to move to cut off the path of the ball. Incoming ball. Right. So the different levels would have different rules, different core sizes, different number of bounces. It's just to hopefully in competition. Right. Make the sport still enjoyable. But yet you know for sport to compete you need to have rules. And you want to have different levels for different abilities, right? So that's I imagine that's the way that they designed those rules and those bounces initially. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you have a large group in Toronto? Alan Ma: I would say it's relatively the same. Alan Ma: Because it's also the amount of facilities we have, right? The number of courts that we can put up. So if we have way more than capacity than a lot of the players are just sitting waiting. Right. And that's and a two hour slot, you, you want to come out and you want to especially if you want to come exercise. Right. You want to sweat out there. Right. So now anywhere between 6 to 8 participants is usually where we feel comfortable rotating players on and off court so that they're not sitting for too long. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Alan Ma: This year we're able to get both the spaces at the school. So the, the, both the gym. So maybe we'll be able to have more players rotate on. Sorry. Have, have less downtime sitting. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Alan Ma: But I mean, for those who come out to socialize and chit chat, I mean that that's makes it easier on our logistics. Right? So. Yeah. Right. But for those who really want to come out to get a good sweat and play and hit the ball and have many rallies I mean, the, the, the two gyms this year would give us a little bit more freedom to rotate in different ways and of course, to match up people of different abilities too. Right. So they maybe some of the more competitive ones wants to play a little bit more, longer rallies. Right. So then they can either hit with a side of coach or other folks if it happens that day other higher level players are there, and they can be matched up for longer times, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess things have changed a lot since I stopped going so many years ago, right? Alan Ma: I would say the core core of what we do is still the same. We still really do, you know individualize the approach for each participant. But yeah, the I would say some of the folks have changed, but we still have some folks that came in that early 20, 20, 2011. They're still with us. Right. So some folks are still playing the whole time. And it's good to see the community continue to build and flourish in different ways. And for us to just have a time that we can laugh and hit and sweat and, you know, enjoy the sport. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. I see my clock is starting to wind down, but I wanted to ask you this question. The 2025 outdoor season ran at the Iroquois Tennis Club in Scarborough. Alan Ma: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: With RSVP based attendance. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How do partnerships with clubs work and what should facility managers know if they want to open their doors to inclusive programs like yours? Alan Ma: Yeah I think for I'll speak to the, the second part. If you operate a facility, if you're a site, a tennis club per se. Yeah. It really doesn't take much. Right. You already have the facility. You just need to get the balls and you can purchase them from the states if you want them closer by. Or get the ones that we use in Japan. We can help facilitate that conversation. Put you in touch with the right personnel. If you're already a tennis club, I would imagine you have different sizes of rackets available. You'll probably have the mini nets as well as your, you know, typical nets all set up. So you have the facility. The next is probably. Get in touch with us. Or take a look later on when we release the module, when it's all we package it all together so that you get a sense of how you would, you know, walk someone through the initial stages of getting them to play different drills that we have to, you know, first work on the audio cue and then you, as a coach or a volunteer will get a sense of, okay, this can work this drill. I can progress it now, right, to different elements. So get in contact with us to get the balls or research yourself. And then for the actual teaching of the sport, like, you can always reach out to us or watch the module to get started. And there are other content available online from Australia, from UK, from the US, right, of how to go about initially getting the sport started. So content is available. It really doesn't take much. I think it just takes a little bit of openness willingness that people may play a little bit differently at your club or your facility. And to be able to embrace it right altogether. So that would be my sort of spiel to them right now. What's your initial part of the question, Donna? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just wanted to know, like. No, I even forget. Alan Ma: How it got started, right? Yeah, yeah. So it was coming out of the pandemic. One of our players lives right next to Iroquois Tennis Club in Scarborough. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay? Alan Ma: She was the one who mentioned to us. Hey, Alan. Jerome, why don't we just go over there and talk to them? And I think this should go. This should be a learning lesson for everyone out there thinking of doing, like changing the world, you know, always starts with one conversation, one person at a time. Right. And you never know where it will take you. So it didn't require her to fill out, you know, some form or didn't didn't require her to go check in with her legal counsel to come up with an agreement. You know, all the stuff that we I think a lot of people think they need to have all their ducks lined up in order to do something, right. No, it starts with a conversation. Is there interest? Would you be interested? I'm part of this blind tennis group in Toronto. We're looking for a place to play. Once. You know, the pandemic allows us to play with your club. Be interested in hosting us. Right. Basically started with that. And then the president of that club said okay, I'll be interested. So we got together and chatted and we experimented and we found a time slot that would be would work to have a external group come in. Right. So it really depends on, I think, each location, each community. If we were like, for example, one other club that we did, a workshop, they're really interested in doing it, but they have a gigantic wait list of memberships, so they do figure out how to carve out specific time and make it like a special initiative, right? So that people on the wait list to their club don't complain and complain saying, hey, why would you let new members come in? I've been on this list. Alan Ma: I'm next in line for next year at least, right? So there are different politics, different procedures for different places. But I would say start with a conversation. If you are a a parent with a child who has visual impairment or you're a friend or neighbor or you yourself want to play tennis in your own community, right? Just like our our our participant, she she just walked over to the club and walked. She walked over with her kids or walked over with her husband, but she walked over and knocked on the door, basically. Can I speak to someone? Right. Wow. You guys, would you folks be interested in something like this? Right? So timing works, right? I I'm sorry. Timing, I think, is specific. You need to probably find the right person to talk with. But I think the lesson learned that that I took away from being rejected for a year and a half to two years. Right. You know, if it's worth it, don't give up. Right. You just need to probably find the right people to work together with. Right. It may take time. You might have disappointments along the way, but once you get in the door and you have your chance to speak. Really, I think show what you're about, right? And you know, those conversations they take off. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think just listening to you, it's so you you break it down into such simple terms. It's all about common sense. It's all about a willingness not to give up. And these are very, very vital lessons for all of us to learn. Alan Ma: But, you know, and I think this goes into your piece about, you know, making the world more accessible for everyone, right? Yeah, it's common sense. You need to look at your. You're gonna. If you can't see right, sense your neighbor what they're about. Yeah. What do they what are they after in life. Well does it match with something that you can have common ground with. And then if so, can you share that passion? Can you share that opportunity together? And you make do right. It doesn't need to be so full of jargon, doesn't need to be so full of policy. Right? That high level stuff I think can help encapsulate, you know, larger demographics altogether when we're governing, when we're, you know, mobilizing large amounts of money. But we don't need to get there. Your folks are just getting started, right? One conversation at a time, one person at a time. And then just hopefully the timing matches with you meeting the right person. Right. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You are a definite change maker, and I want to thank you for having come on to my interview, my podcast. Sorry. Come back anytime if ever you want to share anything with our listeners? Please get in touch with me. I keep promising Jerome that I'm going to return, but I have to keep this promise. Or else he'll just laugh every time I tell him that. Right? He won't believe me. So I got to show up in early November, right? Alan Ma: Well, he'll be he'll be there with open arms. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Alan, thank you so much for this. This coming on to my my podcast. And, hey, keep on going. Don't give up. Alan Ma: Yeah. Thank you Donna, I really appreciate it. Thank you for the invitation. We'll definitely chat soon again. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You take care now. Okay. Bye bye. Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #50: Interview with Dr. Leo Bissonnette | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-07-2025/ In this wide-ranging episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes longtime friend and mentor Dr. Leo Bissonnette for a sweeping conversation about braille, family advocacy, and the craft of inclusion. Bissonnette traces how learning braille in Grade 3 and his mother's quiet, relentless problem-solving, securing a Perkins, scouring "Recordings for the Blind" catalogs, recruiting relatives to tape textbooks, even arranging weekly typing lessons, built the confidence and tools that carried him from student to sociology lecturer. He recalls early teaching years powered by human readers and five-by-eight braille index cards, the shift to digital files that let him grade independently, and the enduring value of a "toolbox" that mixes low-tech standbys with iPhones and modern braille displays. The conversation widens to institutional change: Bissonnette recounts growing Concordia's Access Centre from ad-hoc fixes to a coordinated, university-backed service, partnering with faculty to move from individual accommodations toward universal design, and scaling thousands of exam accommodations through dedicated staffing, budgets, and process discipline. He shares lessons from accessible shuttles and elevator modernizations, the influence of his Ph.D. research on accessible online course design, a three-part playbook for building a modern disability-services office (space, specialized people, and seamless supports), and why emerging multi-line braille tech (like the Monarch) signals a renaissance for tactile literacy. The episode closes with mutual appreciation, a reminder that advocacy never stops, and an invitation to keep building that shared "workbench" where policy meets lived experience. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here. Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, 19. I call that the Accessible Canada Act, with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law, and most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show has our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Leo Bissonnette, welcome to the Remarkable World Commentary podcast. Leo Bissonnette: It's a pleasure to be with you today. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I have to tell our listeners that ours is a friendship that goes back so many years. I remember the very first day that we met you and your mom. What a lovely lady she was. And we have maintained our contact, our our friendship over the years, despite you being in Montreal, my favorite city and me being here in Toronto. So welcome. And are you ready? Leo Bissonnette: I am ready to go. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. All right. So Leo, I'd like to start at the beginning. And how did growing up in Montreal and learning Braille early shape your confidence and your approach to school and independence? Leo Bissonnette: You know, I think it was a blessing in many ways that early in the game it became clear that my vision was not going to be great. And I think given the advocacy work that my mother did. And we'll be talking about that a little bit in various ways, she said, okay, if his vision is going to be the issue, let's talk about where Braille could fit into his life in terms of reading and writing. And as I went into grade three, specifically having worked in print in the previous start of my education, that was a transition year where I learned Braille and how to read it and how to write it. And that made a real big difference, because that lifelong skill has stood me in good stead in education, in work, in leisure and so forth. Because over the years, I started with a Perkins Brailler and a slate and stylus pocket guide, and ended up and still have on my desk of a Braille display. That's quite powerful for reading documents. So Braille has made a big difference in the quality of work and education that I had. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have to agree with you. Leo Bissonnette: And it certainly give you the it gives you the confidence. I mean, you know, I could, you know, when I think of it, you know, at some point walking into a lecture room with five by eight index cards to lecture, you know, I, you know, certainly it gave me the confidence to stand up in a lecture hall and teach sociology. You know, it was special. And, you know, whether it made a difference to those in the classroom as students watching, at least I felt that as a faculty member, I was able to do what any other professor would do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, your mother's advocacy, insisting on Braille, securing a Perkins brailler and hunting down audio books seems very pivotal. What did those early support teach you about what families and schools could do? Right. Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think, you know, initially, because she just did it so seamlessly and quietly. It was years later that, you know, I we began to unpack some of this in discussions and I said, well, first of all, what really got you going? I said, like, you know, you know, we talked about this at a time when we were starting to get online resources and you could do online searches for this and that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Leo Bissonnette: You know, even to get for example, I don't know how to this day, she really found the recordings for the Blind Incorporated catalog, which was in two volumes at the time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Leo Bissonnette: She got a lead on it from somebody, a friend in the States, and she got the volumes, and I took those to the Department of Sociology, for example, and the Prof. The chairman of the department was blown away, and he went through it and found books that would get me started in the first sociology courses I took. I mean, when you think of that, you know, and you compare it to what we can now do today. Wow. You know, that was something then the idea that in Canada, of course, we we didn't have total access, like recordings for the blind and incorporated did not do necessarily Canadian textbooks. Okay. How do you fill that gap? Well my mother recruited people in the family to record. My uncle used to go on business trips and even in the, in the early days with the reel to reel, small portable tape recorder and recorded chapters of books. And of course, then, of course, we moved into the more traditional cassette tape recorders. But when you think of that, you know, going back to the early 70s, late 60s, early 70s, incredible stuff. And again, she did it in a very seamless way. But it was later on we talked about it and I said, well, what was the motivation behind why you were so determined to what she said? First of all, I thought education was going to be the key for you to open up doors. It was going to be the key to get you potentially a job. It was, you know, that kind of thing. So it was she was really motivated to make that happen. And God love her, she did. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy oh boy, what a lady. Leo Bissonnette: Well, you know, it's funny. When I eventually did land the job I did, which was running at an office for students with disability. Yeah. She said to me, she said, well, she said, you don't need a written job description. Just think about what I did for you. And we talked about it. That's sort of what opened the discussion to sort of, you know, say, well, how did you do it and what were the insights you got? So, you know, it's a fascinating time and a fascinating legacy that she left. And it did stood me in good stead because, well, she told the story about when she wanted me to go to Loyola High School, a private Jesuit high school. Right. And she went in and, you know, they said to her, well, you know, realize here, if a student fails first year high school, they cannot return. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: So and so, my mother said to the principal at the time, she said, well, he'll be graduating. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Good for her. Leo Bissonnette: Well, four years later, I did graduate with everybody else. In fact, we were a class of 180 as we started in 180 was finished. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Leo Bissonnette: My mother went up to him, the, you know, they're having coffee and and refreshments. And she said, Leo still here? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good for her. Leo Bissonnette: And I think, you know. And he laughed and he said, okay, he got it, you know. But I think that that said something powerful and, you know, it wasn't an easy run. I mean, the other skill, the other thing that she insisted that I get was typing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Right. Leo Bissonnette: And she found through again, a friend who knew the principal of Graham's business college at the time, Ted Page. She talked to him, and as a result, he volunteered every Thursday afternoon at the Philippine Latin. Well, it was called the Montreal Association School for the blind at the time. She convinced him to come in on a volunteer basis to teach a number of us typing. Wow, that skill got, I'd say, about a good 5 or 6 of us, you know, ready to to take on life with that skill. Leo Bissonnette: So, you know, I think that that's sort of the legacy summarized in that fashion. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now you've lived both as a student and as a professor and as a professor with vision loss. When you first taught sociology at Concordia. What practical systems did you bill readers scanning early word processors to grade and give feedback independently? Leo Bissonnette: Well, the interesting thing, and again, my mother and later on, my wife would read to me the the exams and the handwritten exams. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Leo Bissonnette: You know, when you think of it at that point, you know, and oh, the multiple choice. As time evolved, there was a scoring system that you could submit answers and students answer sheets would be collated and you get grades. But still the written questions on these exams my mother, my wife were great in reading to me. Now, it got really interesting when the computers came out and the students could give me disks. So I would set it up in such a way that a lot of the assignments were take home assignments so that they could, you know, do some research. And actually, in the process of having them do it that way, I was able to teach them a lot about good writing styles how to handle footnotes and so forth. So it was a win win, I think, for a lot of things. But certainly I was able to independently grade those papers that students would Students give me disk copies of, you know. So that's how that evolved. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess we've come such a long way from them. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And, you know, it's funny because I've gone back in time and lectured and, you know, people say, well, now you can just put an earphone in your ear and so forth. Well, I guess maybe I'm still old school. Those five by eight index cards that I started with are still good today, right? You know, I was at a meeting last night on a committee that I'm on, and I had my five by eight index cards with the agenda. I still think that's, you know, well, it's maybe neat, nifty to use all this technology with an earphone hanging out of your ear and an iPhone talking. I still think I'm old school and say, okay, this other stuff has a place, but there's some good old traditional ways that still stand the test of time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So Braille lives on. And I agree with you. I think, you know, like those five by eight index cards. I believe in them. I do, you know. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah, I agree, I agree. You know, and let's be clear that things have evolved. The braille displays do very well in connection connected to iPhones and to Macs and to windows computers. They have a place and and I think it says something to about Braille because I think, well, we'll probably talk more about it, but while it may be nice to say that, oh, our computers talk to us, but I think Braille still gives us that total description of what you know, how is how is the name spelt how is a term spelled? How is a sentence punctuated? I think this the everybody says, let's go audio. But I think there's a whole dimension that's lost if you don't have that, you know, access. Yes. How do you spell the name? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Leo Bissonnette: You know, it may sound this way, when you actually look at the spelling. And that's what I think makes a difference. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, even taking your last name Leo Bissonnette. Oh yeah. How do we uneven my last name Jodhan. How do you spell it. Leo Bissonnette: I've had mine spelled in various ways. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Me too. Leo Bissonnette: And you know. And why have that detract from good work that you're doing. Leo Bissonnette: I think that's what it comes down to style to become much more conscious. Okay. What does it mean if you're writing an academic paper or even just an essay or anything. Right. Underline a heading. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: You know, I think these are things that you don't want to get lost. And I worry at times that with this real, everybody says we must go auditory. It's a help. And it has a place, but let's not let's talk about that toolbox that has the things you need in it Anyway, there you go. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Now, looking back at your 35 year career at Concordia University, what was the mission that you had set for the Access Center for students with Disabilities Act's aid, and how did that mission evolve over time? Leo Bissonnette: Well, it's interesting that when I go back to the the year that I started back in, you know, mid 80s and, you know, the early 80s, rather it Anne Kirby, who was indeed very much the founder of the center where she was given the job along with other duties. Oh, yeah. You can take care of the first few students. Well, quickly she began to recruit a lot of students who had initially mobility impairments, so making the campus more accessible. But then then you had a number of visually impaired students. Come. And then you were starting to see a group of students who were learning disabled. So and the numbers were beginning to grow sufficiently where you could justify the existence of an office. So she hired me to take over the running of that office to re set in place programs that would accommodate the students with the range of disabilities that they presented, along with breaking into the whole discussion with faculty. How do you teach students with the respect of disabilities? And that that became a real challenge because, you know, it's a delicate balance when you're working with faculty because, you know, you're trying to balance to say, okay, you guys on the faculty side are the subject matter experts. You know, I'm not going to tell you how to what's involved in teaching biology and so forth. You'll tell me more. What's involved in that? My job is to understand what you're trying to teach and give you techniques to accommodate that student. Leo Bissonnette: So what we want to develop is a working partnership to make that happen for the student. And that's really where things begin. You know, that was the job that I had to take on, which was a good job to breaking down those barriers to get faculty and students and our office talking together. And what you didn't want to end up with were situations where you were saying, okay, the next step is the human rights lawyers. Get all the lawyers involved. Let's work this out. And in fact, actually over the years, I ended up developing some interesting partnerships with some professors to, you know, they were they really came on side and they, they, you know, they would bring ideas to the table, especially teaching some of the sciences and so forth. So that was sort of the that was the, the, the goal in a nutshell, was to get this to happen for a range of students with disabilities. And, you know, playing it forward. As I moved into retirement, we were then beginning to see students with on the autism spectrum again. How do you accommodate them? Because that was, you know, again, another population bringing their needs to the table, finding out how to deal with that. And of course, the other thing too, as part of it, there wasn't always funding for some of the students and programs. You know, if you were dyslexic, you were not getting money from Quebec. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Leo Bissonnette: And it was to get money eventually available to fund tutoring and note taking and this thing and that. So, you know, that was sort of it was to evolve the services to meet a whole range of subpopulations, if you will. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, I guess you had a lot of barriers to break down in those days, didn't you? Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And the barriers were sometimes attitudinal. Yes. You know, what are you guys doing here? You're taking up resources. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're taking up space. Leo Bissonnette: You're taking up. Well, I remember the exams office coordinator at the years ago saying, why should I be paying for your exam invigilators and so forth. Why should you? Why should I be paying for extended time? We pay an invigilator for three hours. No more. Why should I be picking up your bill? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess many days you went home with your heads and your your head in your hands, saying, good lord. Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think what you had to do, I think you really had to develop just. Okay. At the end of the day, you go home and you pick it up next morning and you keep it going because you know that you worry about burnout for yourself and for the people working with you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Leo Bissonnette: And that's that's the trick to this game. And you know, I think. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you helped move the university from case by case fixes towards universal design in teaching and services. What convinced faculty and administrators to shift from accommodations to access by design? Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think it wasn't an even process across the faculties. I think, strangely enough, the faculties of science and engineering were easier to deal with because I think they began to, you know, they understood, you know, if you if you talked about what a good building would look like. Yeah. That got some people's attention. You know, it was harder to explain to a professor teaching history how all universal design could work. You know, oftentimes what you would do as a professor in some of the disciplines you would walk in. You were the sage on the stage and you taught to, you know, you taught to the the brighter students and and to say that you understood that people had different learning styles. No, that didn't necessarily translate to them. It took time. And, you know some push and some of them came to say that it was total no but some faculties and departments did better than others. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're saying that it was easier for to deal with those in the sciences than rather than those in the arts? Leo Bissonnette: I think so. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You do a. Leo Bissonnette: I think across the board because, you know, if you could say to a, you know, talking to an engineer or somebody who's building a building and you talked about how, how did a ramp, how did putting in a ramp help? Oh I see. Type of deal. They could translate the analogies better. And I think, you know, and it's again, it wasn't a totally smooth process. Over time it became better. And of course, when faculty began to understand learning differences for people that seemed to break the logjam. Leo Bissonnette: And it took time and again, we did a lot of work with faculty development offices to develop plans to teach people, teach help instructors prepare for that in a classroom context. Leo Bissonnette: And I think what we had to do like and luckily I think Concordia did better at this than some other places. It was, it was to value the students as opposed to, you know for many faculty it was publish or perish, but to value good teaching. Leo Bissonnette: I think started to make a difference for a lot of professors who were lifelong teachers, who were more open to say, okay, there is something I can gain from some of this discussion and I can make a difference. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: So, you know, unlike maybe other academic institutions that were very much for the faculty on that side, you have to publish or perish. And, you know, your publication is record were what we want to see than your academic teaching record. So so, you know, maybe it was the climate of Concordia that helped some of that as opposed to other institutions. But over time it put a dent. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Certainly I remember Doctor Radhakrishnan. Leo Bissonnette: Oh my goodness. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Talk about him all the time. Oh wonderful. Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And I had there was a particularly interesting biology prof that I came to know over the years. And he, you wanted to talk about being there to help innovate and come up with ideas to help some of our students. He was there, and that's what made a difference. And, you know, sometimes taking that back to a colleague opens other doors. And that's what he did in this case. And there are other examples. So there were a lot of good faculty who came to it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now the scale of support that your team delivered like thousands of accommodated exams each year didn't happen by accident. What processes staffing models or partnerships made that level of service reliable. Leo Bissonnette: Well I think what began to happen was and I talked earlier about how the at one point an exams office coordinator said, you know, why should we be paying for your exams? Well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Naughty. Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: It began. And it was a real tough slug to say, hey, look, these are students. And at some point, if I can't draw money from you, we're going to have a problem. So let's figure out ways to make this work. And over time, while there were administrative changes where there was clear understanding that there had to be money put into it, the university did put money. And then we were able to go out to the government and say is we're accommodating students. Part of the accommodation we need is an envelope of money to take care of the exam side of things so that we can hire invigilators, train Invigilators, get computer equipment into certain rooms and areas that we can. We can do the exams. And it took time and it eventually did make a difference. And and really what we were able to then do was set up our own structure where we had our own exams coordinator who would schedule all our exams and work with the exams office to get exams. Actual text of exams to us, you know, in time. So if they were getting exams, say for December exams starting in mid November, we were getting the documents. If they had to be put into Braille, they were braille. If they had to be taped, they were taped, etc.. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, this brings back so many memories to me because I also went to Concordia and I remember those days, you know, like, so what you've done here is really fleshed things out. You know, well. Leo Bissonnette: In my first exams going when I was at Loyola, that's where I started. My well, I did the CGF equivalent going back to 1970. You would sit down with a prof and sort of make a deal with them, how we would accommodate. And, you know, it was that and it was it was the good graces of, of, of the sociology department. In my case, I came to know many of them and actually years later ended up teaching with some of them. But, you know, it started somewhere, but it was very an ad hoc solution as opposed to a system wide solution. Leo Bissonnette: And that came into place and well by the time well I left my goodness we were doing I guess and we were thinking this was like about 1500 exams the last Christmas before I retired. Now they're doing much more than that. I don't even know what the stats are that they're into. But it's big. It's big time. So you know, it had to start somewhere, and it started back then, and it continues to evolve. And they have, as I say, they have several people now even coordinating those exams. And of course, they're running them day and night, morning, evening, day and afternoon and night and even on the weekends. And because again, it it it's in keeping with the way Concordia classes are structured and faculties are structured. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Leo Bissonnette: So and it reflects the structure of Concordia. Another university would work differently of course. Yeah. But, you know, as long as you're in lockstep with what's in that administrative structure of services, that's what you want to do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Beyond classrooms you pushed for accessible infrastructure such as camp campus shuttles, elevator access and design of new buildings with which built in environment wins most improved day to day life for students in your point of view? Leo Bissonnette: Well, you know, it's so funny. At one point with the buses. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: The university is, in its so-called wisdom, bought some buses from California, and we warned them. These buses, whether ready for our climate. Well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: And do they have lifts? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Leo Bissonnette: Wheelchairs. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well. Leo Bissonnette: These these with great fanfare. They arrive in the fall and they start off well. Then you hit the winter. Well, those lifts were freezing. Leo Bissonnette: And, you know, halfway up you know. So you had okay they had to go back. They had to be you know, they had the lubricants had to be looked at and so forth. It was a discussion that you really needed to get in at the outset. So the next time they, they changed the buses, of course, there was an improvement because from the ground up we were involved bringing to the table, What was needed in terms of lifts and so forth, straps and how you dealt with a wheelchair and locked it down. And once you got it into a bus and, you know, I think over time that improved. Now, at a certain point Concordia, if you talk about the elevators, these elevators that we had at the time in the hall building, which was under the main buildings as an example, we're getting old and for a whole lot of reasons, the university decided to to change the system. And again, it's okay. What do you do with talking elevators with this and that? Well, luckily they did that part right. But again, that took a lot of collaboration, a lot of meetings. And, you know, you sit down with the people, what do you need? What are the things that have to be here. What's the checklist that makes all this accessible. And then with the buildings like as some of the new engineering buildings were built. The faculty, the John Molson School was built again to have the architects. And we did have an architect, actually his wife was very active at Dawson and Disability Services, and luckily when this gentleman came in, he had a good, clear idea from his work and seeing what his wife did as to what needed to be done. So it was an easier sell to get him to think about what is needed in terms of building design and a building setup. So, you know, the John Molson School is a wonderful example of where all the good things came together as that was built. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, just listening to you, I'm thinking you were probably ahead of the game by many years as opposed to now. I mean, now they're talking about accessible buildings, accessible vehicles accessible this, accessible that. But you were doing this. Years before, weren't you? Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think we were. Although, you know, to be fair to other universities, they were starting to do it, too. And you know, I just think we took full advantage of the culture we had you know, and it I think the bottom line was you had to sit down with the right people and you develop that relationship to say, let's be we are a team here in this. We all we all want to win out of this. You know, it's like a good sports team, a good hockey team that has a good goalie, a good defense and a good forward line. If you're in in lockstep with each other, things happen. And I think that's what we had. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You had a great hockey team, if I may say so. Right. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. Well, we're going to see as I start tomorrow night a new year. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You and I are cheering for the same team. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah, and the Toronto Blue Jays. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yes indeed. Yes indeed. Yeah. So your PhD research at Concordia examined how to meet faculty's evolving needs needs around accessibility. What were the most surprising gaps that you uncovered, and which training tactics actually changed teaching practices? Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think it's it's an interesting thing, this topic, because at a time when faculty were starting to move from text based materials to online materials, how did you make that happen? Right. Well, faculty themselves were struggling with that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Leo Bissonnette: You know, like, what does a good web like, you know, if you had somebody a textbook and with pages you flip through them differently. How do you chunk that material on a website? It's different. They had to learn that we were all struggling with that. The then factor into that? Okay. How do I make this material accessible? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Leo Bissonnette: You know you know, what do you do to make sure that images are properly labeled? What do you do with a PDF that needs to be read and so forth? So I, I think what my dissertation began to show was that we were in a transition period, and these things had to happen. And of course, beyond people, what it did as I was doing the research faculty development office, people came to me and said, look, would you work with us to develop packages of information that we could give faculty? You're designing a course pack. How do we do that? You're designing a web based course. How do you do that? And then, of course, as they brought on more of the resources, like Concordia, for example, which was really tasked by the university to to really push into into online courses. How do you provide something for those people who are doing that heavy lifting with the information that really brings the accessibility built in that you're not having to retrofit? You know, let's do good design from the top, you know, from the start. And I think that's the that was the value of my research. And of course, given that it was in-house people, we I had them involved in some of the research I was doing. They became they became to understand exactly what some of the barriers were. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess, Leo, you were fighting on very many fronts. Leo Bissonnette: Well you know what fighting there was a lot of collaboration because people were saying, look it we're struggling. You know, there was an admission of struggle. Like, as I say, going from print based material to another format. People were honestly saying, hey, I'm struggling, how do we deal with it? So I'm not so sure that it was adversarial. I would say it was like, okay, we're all struggling. Let's admit it. Let's sit down and get it to work. And then by having good, good examples to show colleagues and each other, oh, you did it this way. You did it that way. I think over the years it's, you know, it'd be interesting to go back today and see what some of these courses look like. But I think it started it started a good collaborative situation that that grew. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, it reminds me of a bunch of us in a boat, right? The seas are rough and we're saying, oh, my Lord, we don't have a choice. So we're going to have to collaborate to get this boat to land, right? Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And that's a good analogy. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah yeah. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you've written and presented widely on alternate format materials. Yeah. For instructors and departments listening today, what is the fastest way to get from. I have a course pack to every student can read it on day one. Leo Bissonnette: Well, unfortunately, I would say that publishers have certainly opened up their access. Selah library have much more of a material. Right? You know, as example, Bookshare that's we didn't have those things some years ago. And I think that's made a big, big difference. And I think that's that's where the Kindle books you know, things like that have made a big difference. Audible. You know, all this has come to be tools and so forth that we can use. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What what has happened to recording for the blind. Are they still around. Leo Bissonnette: Well at a certain point we couldn't get at their services in the States. I have to assume they're around recordings now. I guess something in dyslexic you know, I think they found their niche in the States in that sense. But to speak to them specifically these days, I don't know, I don't know. I know that they were certainly very much around but they, they, they expanded very much into the area of learning dyslexic, providing services and so forth. And where they sit today, I don't know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Many of our listeners are disability services professionals. Okay. If you had to share a three part playbook for building a modern student center office, what would it include? Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think what you've got, if you're starting fresh, I think what you do is you've got to get in a lot of money from the administration and a commitment to that to literally give you the physical space that's accessible that you need. And that's that's a big part of it. Then you've got to be able to recruit the professionals you need in the, in the various areas of disability. And I think you need to have be able to hire academic advisors who have a skill set in dealing with specific disabilities that really they can ramp up to help students. And then I think if there's other resources that are needed you know, for example, note takers and so forth. You have to have a structure for, for that kind of service support where somebody is able to know that they can get their notes. You know, can you hire classmates to do it? And how do you train people to take good notes? You know, that kind of thing? I think that's the whole thing of getting the resources and the people that you need in place to do to work with the students and on behalf of the university and sell it to the university as a win win, where the money invested will give you a good return. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. You know, as you talk about all this, what about having readers who are well trained to read exams that are technical? I can tell you about that last. Leo Bissonnette: No, I think I think that's it. And I think, you know, there's where you go to some of the departments and you say, okay, you have a very specific field here. Let's talk about your graduate students who can work reading and exam to an undergraduate and literally develop strategies so that it's not, oh, you showed up today and oh, you need a reader. No, you here's your you have your reader here. You here's your room, here's your exam. And that's what it it has to be seamless. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I shared with you my my horrible experience last year when I went to write my cybersecurity exam. Yeah. The lady said to me, I don't know how to interpret this. Yeah, yeah. And I sat there and I said, well, I can't write this exam. So now what? Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. What? No, you don't want to get to that situation. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No no no no no no. Leo Bissonnette: It's tough enough as it is. But no. You want to get something past that? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I see the clock is starting to tell me we're running out of time, but I wanted to ask you this question. Ashton, you often talk about building a toolbox that mixes high tech and low tech. What's in your toolbox right now and how do you evaluate new visual assistants, apps and devices? Leo Bissonnette: Well, literally, in my case, I have in my briefcase, a pocket, a pocket guide and stylus. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Same here. Leo Bissonnette: You know, and I think that begins to talk about what you have. I have an iPhone that of course has a whole range of apps on there that do a range of things. Yes. And I think that's, you know, that that begins to take you into the higher tech end of it. I'm fortunate enough to have decided a few years ago to buy my own Braille display. I have a Perkins Brailler that sits on my desk. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. And it's, you know, and that Perkins Brailler is the one that my mother bought me back in 1966 at $92. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My. Oh. Leo Bissonnette: Yeah. Yeah. So. And then, you know, well, you take advantage. Like, what started out with tape recorders years ago is now, you know, an app on the phone that you can record meetings if you so wish. So if you go from, you know, it's the, the slate and stylus, the pocket guide, slate and stylus right through this other you know, the bigger things. And I think what you got to do is you, you have to say to yourself, what do I need? And you try to put it in place and learn how to use it, take advantage of how to use it. And that's that's what's key. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's a bit of this and a bit of that bit of that Holden from the new. Right. Leo Bissonnette: Oh yeah. And you know don't dismiss the low tech stuff. Yeah. Everybody said, oh the high tech stuff and all of this stuff has its place. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: So, yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So in winding up here, what are your thoughts about the future of of high tech as it plays a part in the lives of persons who, especially those who are blind and vision impaired? Where do you see this going? And what about Braille? Do you think Braille is still a formidable giant in our landscape? Leo Bissonnette: Well, I think it's very interesting. Now you have coming into play a new generation of technology that that is not just a single line of Braille display. It's multi line. The monarch is an example of technology that yes, today is expensive. All the technology was expensive and is expensive. But I think this has some really interesting Possibilities for people who are, for example, in commerce. If you're looking at a spreadsheet, an Excel spreadsheet today on a monarch, what a difference to be able to literally run your hand down multi lines and across to see what's in a column, I think that's where it's important. And I think Braille will have a resurgence there. And and I think as they become more skilled at how to more formally build in apps to this to help you learn math or deal with math and other things. I think it's this next generation of multiline braille displays that will give Braille a new lease on life. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Wow, I've enjoyed this interview. I've learned a lot from you. I, I you know, I always knew that you were heavily involved in, you know, things going on at Concordia. And I want to thank you, Leo, for having stuck with me over the years, not just as, you know, as my mentor, my friend, my advisor. And you played a pivotal role in, in the campaign for Barrier Free Canada. So thank you. Well thank you. Leo Bissonnette: You know, if I may say it, first of all, I remember meeting you down at CSUN in the middle of all this, right? Yes. And we talked about it. But I also say I'm going to take you back to your own career. You went into commerce at a time when you know, you broke some trails trailblazing to when, you know, you were getting profs in commerce. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Leo Bissonnette: Used to think so. No, I think you can be. You can celebrate your own accomplishment in opening up access in an area of studies that people in the John Molson School today would certainly have had a root in your work and others. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I think we've both traveled the same road. Leo Bissonnette: And I think we have. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And we have miles to go. Don't worry. Oh, I think. Leo Bissonnette: That's the thing. You know what? You know, somebody said, does advocacy work ever stop? No. It continues. The challenges emerge. Yeah. You know, what's what will be around in five years. We maybe haven't even anticipated, but it's part of it. So upward and onward. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate it. And we will be in touch on other initiatives. Leo Bissonnette: Thank you. Donna. It was a pleasure to be here with you this afternoon. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. And take care now. Leo Bissonnette: You too. Thank you. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #49: Interview with Larry L. Lewis, Jr., Senior Lead Technologist, Booz Allen Hamilton | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-06-2025/ In this candid, forward-looking episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes longtime friend and mentor Larry L. Lewis, Jr., tracing his path from the "Olympic-sized pool" of CSUN 1998 to helping bring the BrailleNote to market at HumanWare, leading sales at Optelec, founding Flying Blind and publishing Top Tech Tidbits, shaping Section 508 mobile testing at the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, and now guiding a roughly forty-person accessibility team as Senior Lead Technologist at Booz Allen Hamilton. Larry explains how his dual grounding in English and blind rehabilitation forged a communication-first approach, recalls the breakthrough of internet browsing on the BrailleNote that unlocked Bookshare and NLS for readers, and revisits personal moments—from teaching Donna her first iPhone to opening professional doors—that anchor their decades-long mentorship. The conversation ranges from Brazilian jiu-jitsu as "physical chess" that taught patience, restraint, and relationship-building, to the hard realities of marrying cybersecurity and accessibility, where secure, accessible interfaces reduce malware risks and AI tools can fill gaps when screen readers miss critical alerts. Larry offers a provocative near-term vision—screen readers evolving into subscription "bots" rather than installed software—alongside a modern classroom toolkit centered on the camera, Aira/Be My Eyes, mobility apps like Voice Vista, and, soon, smarter glasses. He closes with the philosophy that defines his legacy: empowerment through technology, using the right tools to get the most out of life at work, in travel, and beyond. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Comentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here. Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles. One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every as bit remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Larry Lewis, I'd like to welcome you to the Remarkable World Commentary podcast. Larry is a longtime friend, mentor, and advisor, and we have traveled many roads over the years. Larry, I'd love to take listeners back to when we first met at CSUN or CSUN in 1998. What did that conference mean for your career at the time, and how did that networking there set the stage for the path that you have traveled since? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, thanks, Donna, it's a great question. And firstly, I want to thank you for the opportunity to be on Remarkable World, and I want to say hello to everybody who's listening. When I went to that conference a long time ago, 27 years ago, I was actually shifting out of a job with a nonprofit center who serves persons who are visually impaired. And it was in a in a tech role and assistive technology role, and was shifting into my first taste of of for profit working for humanware. So it was important for me. I was sort of finishing up that job while at the same time joining Humanware sort of sort of together. And it was necessary because up until then, I hadn't had a lot of networking outside of the state of Ohio in the United States. And so it was a bit overwhelming. It's kind of like just learning how to, as we say in the United States, dog paddle, which isn't really swimming. We just kind of paddle around and being thrown into an Olympic sized pool you know, with you know, where you're sharing lanes and you're not trying to run into people but you're just trying to keep your head above water and, and and move forward and kind of take it all in so that I look at it as dog paddling in, in a little, little secluded lake, jumping into an Olympic sized pool if we want to use swimming as an analogy. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And so I joined Humanware prior to the Braille note days. It's one of the reasons they brought me on was to bring Braille note to market. And so I was just sort of in fire hydrant mode, taking in everything, just getting acclimated to wow, there's a lot going on outside of the state of Ohio meeting all these different vendors, meeting, meeting professionals like yourself and just getting acclimated to all these people to where I just. I can remember the final evening of the conference, and I think I stupidly decided to take a redeye home to get home. And I just was just exhausted because not and I'm pretty high energy person, but it was just taking in so many different people and so many different vendors and so much technology. And things were quite a bit different back then. I mean, the internet was just sort of beginning to blossom. We were we were in the late nineties.com boom in the US. So there was a lot going on with just all these companies that were developing for the internet and networking and hardware and screen readers were trying to move from DOS to windows still. And, you know, this was like this. The talk about it now, it's like, wow, man, so much has changed. I mean, the equipment that that we had to carry back then I, I jokingly tell people I got into weightlifting because I wanted to sell adaptive technology. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You know, I should mention to listeners, you know, with you and I having met at CSUN in 1998, was the beginning of a very, very wonderful relationship where you have become not just my friend, but my mentor, my advisor. Hey, you taught me how to use the I devices. Remember those days. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I do and that that was probably 2010 ish, 11 ish when we I wanted to take a couple years to see if Apple was serious about sticking with this, because in the 1980s, Apple, with a lot of younger folks don't realize is Apple used to have a real assistive technology push in the 80s with the Braille, with the with the Apple two and the Apple two. E there is an old product called Braille Edit back in the 80s. And then when Microsoft came on, they just ditched accessibility. So for those of us who were burned by Apple once, there's a lot of us who were like they've got this iPhone now, are they going to stick with it? Are they going to make it? And so I think it was about 2010, 2011, after about 3 or 4 years of updates, I was like, yeah, they're they're in it for the long haul. And that's when I became a little bit more involved in the mobile side of the house, both from an At training but then also dealing with, you know, accessible apps and those sorts of things. So yeah, I remember we spent spent a fair amount of time just working through it. And you were you were you were a very good learner. And that when, when you figured that when you figured it out, it stuck with you. And then we just built onto it from there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I'm very, very appreciative of this. Thank you very much. Yeah. So you hold degrees in both English literature and a blind rehabilitation. How have those disciplines blended to influence the way you write? Technical guides, teach professionals and sell the accessibility story. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I began with English because I wasn't, as I jokingly say, didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. And so I knew, I knew I could take an English degree. It would be versatile. Kind of almost like a marketing or communications degree. But I've always loved to read. But what I learned, what I learned with English is the importance of both verbal and written communication, as you mentioned. When I finished my master's in English, I was like, you know, I really don't want to spend my life in a classroom just teaching literature, although it would be fun to some degree. And I was at I was at Northern Illinois University for my English graduate work. And this sort of noticed that they had this program designed in their special education curriculum to work with a, with a variety of different types of individuals who are, who are blind. I focus more on adults, although I did my practicum with the Chicago Public School system as part of my degree because I've also liked like working with youth as well. And I wanted to figure out a way to make lives better. And I felt like I could do that more by parlaying what I had. I knew I could take the skills that that came with the English degree, and I could make them work to solve problems. And so and so there are a number of different problems that I saw with, with blind rehabilitation from the ability of one to sell themselves, whether they're, whether they're applying for entry to a university or something or whether they're applying for a job or what have you. And so I also there was this convergence of technology at the time. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I mean, I remember in 1991, moving moving from Apple to dos and and some of the the vocal. I mean I was using vocalize before JAWS because I thought vocalize did the the best job in dos that became window-eyes after after vocalize. They were really in my mind the frontrunner with DOS. And I also was introduced to the Braille and speak and my gosh, yeah. So I mean, I had this little device in my hand and again, lifting weights because I carried a Perkins Brailler around same as the same as the tech equipment. So I was like, wow, I don't have to carry this Perkins Brailler. And it's not that I got rid of my Perkins, but being able to take notes versus recording classes and just doing all this hard stuff became so much easier. And so I'm like, there has to be a way to take the ability to communicate with the emergence of assistive technology and then and then somehow parlay that into a career designed to help folks via via from an educational standpoint, be it for from a vocational standpoint, as far as getting work, what does it mean to have an accessible workplace? And so it just all kind of came together I was able to sort of get a lot of my work behaviors sorted out. As somebody who is a pretty free spirit in my 20s was able to get rid of a lot of my bad habits and so forth and begin to become a model employee during that time. When I worked for the, for the Cleveland Sight Center and then when I got the call and had the opportunity to move into a product management position with human, where I felt ready. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: It was based on my educational background, and I've been in sales since I've been in since since sixth grade. I actually won a school contest selling selling suncatchers for a fundraiser, and that's when I got the sales bug. I was selling these little cell suncatchers. I blew out my competitors in school and won this one. This very clever. We call them in the United States. Ghetto blasters. They're like these stereos. Yes. And. Yeah. And so that's when that's when I'm like I think I could get used to selling anything. And then in school, I sold against the vending machines. I sold soda and snacks out of my room, and I undercut, I undercut, I undercut the vending machines. Everybody was happy. I was making money on the side. And so I've always liked to sell just the thrill of selling, but also the thrill of problem solving. Like you want to. You want to save a quarter on that can of soda. You walk down to Larry's room versus going to the vending machine. So I've always I mean, I've sold everything from talking Bibles to enterprise level accessibility services. If it can be sold, I will, I will, I will get to know my audience and I will find a way to sell it. And I don't think that's a bad thing. It's just something I enjoy. And I think I've done it in a fairly responsible way. I'm not a huckster. I you I usually always say if I, if I'm pushing it, it's because I either use it or I believe in the use of it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I have to admire, you know, I am not a salesperson. So, you know, like. And I bought a few things from you, I bought what did I buy? The Polaris I bought from you? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I bought Polaris, you bought a few Braille displays, I think. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. The talking Bible. So there you go. I know all about you. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: You you know, all the way back to the talk. I had a company at CSUN 2009, I think it was Aurora ministries or something like that. Yeah. Like, hey, I'm like, well, hey, I read the Bible, I can help you with that. And it's like, so we we sold a lot of talking Bibles right alongside a very expensive braille displays, and had a good time with it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great great great great. So beyond the office, you practice Brazilian jiu jitsu, right? How has that martial art discipline informed the resilience and problem solving you bring to accessibility work? Yeah. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I have spent a lot of time in martial arts, and for the past 19 years, it's been strictly Brazilian jiu jitsu when I had a little bit of vision. When I was younger, I trained in karate and more traditional martial arts, taekwondo. Oh my God. I also wrestled in high school, which I consider a martial art, even though it's a lot of folks don't. It's it's it's one of the oldest martial arts wrestling. So I wrestled in high school. I'm a very active person because I'm a very hyper person. And so if I'm not active I have too much time on my hands. It's just good for me to be active. So I've always followed grappling and that sort of thing. And the nice thing about jiu jitsu versus some of the other traditional striking martial arts is there's a path for people who are blind, both with jiu jitsu and judo to, to fully participate and compete and, and just really have a good time with it. And so I to be honest with you, when I got involved with it, I was looking for a change to my, my fitness routine. I was involved in a lot of lifting and cardio and stuff, and I'm like, I want to get more into group activities again instead of just going to the gym and grinding it out by myself. So I got involved with it. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And what it has taught me is that the whole premise behind jiu jitsu, the self-defense aspect of jiu jitsu, is for somebody who is Possibly more vulnerable or smaller. It gives them a way to stay safe and to control where a conflict goes. The conflict can end pretty quickly. If the if the person is able to subdue and whatever, you know, it's just over, or it can end pretty brutally if if the person doesn't want to stop, you know, arms can get broken. You know, people can get choked unconscious. There's a there's a it's all depends on what the what the assailant. The assailant wants it to go. So that's the self-defense aspect of jiu jitsu. The sport. The sport aspect is you've got people who are skilled, equally skilled, equally ranked, and they're competing against each other. And that that's fun, too. But jiu jitsu is very much like a chess match where if if somebody is applying, shifting their body one way and you want it to go another way, you have to shift your body a certain way. So it's very it's kind of like physical chess. If you want to think of it that way, the more you get into it. And I have been doing it almost 20 years now. So I find it it's stimulating both mentally and physically. But what also makes it nice is I have learned through jiu jitsu that it's not always okay in life, even when you're upset or whatever. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: It's not okay to burn a bridge. It's not okay to unload. It's not when you know what you can physically do to another person. The more you learn in jiu jitsu, like maybe somebody just having a bad day. So if I get walking out, walking out. There was a person a few months ago who had had too much to drink and bumped into me, and I just redirected. I just redirected their body and it was cool. They didn't mean to, you know, jiu jitsu. Larry might have handled that a lot differently. You know, I was just leaving a pub and the person just had a lot to drink and bumped into me, and he might have just been having a bad day. He wasn't a jerk about it. The same can happen with relationships at work relationships with family. And so you have to you have to ask yourself what? What could be happening to cause a person to behave a certain way? And does it really pay to do something that you can't undo? In jiu jitsu? Maybe I can subdue somebody without breaking an arm. Maybe breaking an arm is not necessary. Or maybe not. Choking somebody is not necessary. If you can just subdue them and they calm down and they're like, all right, all right. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: We're like you. You don't have to put the foot on the gas the whole time in any sort of conflict, be it verbal, be it I'm going to get. There's been times when I ran my own company where I got really shafted by other resellers like this, just undercut and not treated very well. And it's like, all right, I could be out to get them and waste all my energy on that. Or I can just stay the course and do what I know is right. Maybe point it out that I know what happened. And, you know, I still have relationships with people like you who've known me a long time and know what I'm about. And and so and so I think, I mean, jiu jitsu is just. It's been such a life. I always tell people my my Christian faith and my jiu jitsu, and then I also practice, practice yoga so that I can keep doing jiu jitsu because I'm getting older. Those three things have really helped shape me my mindset, how I treat others and just how I behave. And it's like, hey, if things get if things get out of hand, they're pretty real. We have a we have a mutual friend who will vouch for me that I can handle it. But we knowing. Knowledge is power and knowing what you can do doesn't mean you have to do it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like your analogy to jujitsu being physical chess because I play chess. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. So, so if I move is one way and you're trying to move and then the checkmate is if you can make the other individual tap because they're in a position they can't get away of, away from, and it's starting to hurt. And so they would tap the matter, tap you, and then you would start again. It's a submission that would be your checkmate in jiu jitsu. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. All right. Now you've worked for manufacturers like Humanware and Optilete. Optilete founded. You founded Flying Blind, LLC, and now you serve as senior lead technologist at Booz Allen Hamilton. How have those very different fashion, different vantage points shaped the way you approach accessibility today? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So when I started with Humanware and it was very much a 100% at assistive technology, we were creating things with, with Humanware, it was the Braillenote with Optiflex. We had bought Alva and we'd done some different, different things like that. And so it was always about how could we, how could we make a piece of technology better? And then sell that technology. And so I started in product management to help with the braille note shifted into sales because I couldn't say no to sales I was selling even when I was a product manager. So I was like, let me into sales. And so but Flying Blind came about because I began to see that you could have the best part Art of assistive technology. And you could have the best assistive technology, but if content wasn't accessible, it's kind of like having having the best car ever without a paved road. Okay. So you could have a Corvette or any fancy car Lamborghini or whatever. But if you're, if you're driving over logs and through streams because there's not a bridge to drive on, it really doesn't matter how nice the car was. And so I liken digital accessibility to removing those logs and removing those, those dirt trails and paving so that you can get from where you are to where you want to be. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And so we're flying blind. It was a mixture of still had my finger in at because of the relationships with the vendors also wanted to create a low cost. You know, we sold a lot of used equipment to people who couldn't afford it, but they were scared to buy used equipment because they didn't have somebody like me checking it out first, so we built that out quite a bit. But then we got more into the iPhone stuff and mobile accessibility then began to partner and do some contract work with a number of different companies, one of which was Vespero, who owns Freedom Scientific, and I actually, I actually had a stint for a few years while wrapping up Flying Blind working for the Paciello Group in an accessibility sales role. So that was sort of the connection between flying blind and where I'm at now. Where I'm at now is I manage a team of for roughly 40 accessibility specialists across different federal projects, mostly federal. Occasionally we do some commercial work and so forth. And it's from everything from auditing to training to implementation of policy and whatnot. And so they're all kind of been building blocks where you start with at you begin to bake ATN with accessibility and those sorts of things, and then you begin to shift left more to accessibility. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: With my work with the Paciello group. And that prepared me to get into a situation once I'd been in more of a direct sales role with these services being able to shift to more of a business development role at Booz Allen. And so they have all kind of I mean, to the to the person who doesn't know me, it's like, oh, this guy jumps around every 5 or 6 years. Well, I do, but but there's sort of a method to it. I'm not a person. I'm probably undiagnosed ADHD. I can't do the same thing for too long. So but there's a it kind of tells a story if, if, if you unpack it that way. So that's what I'm doing now. And it's really helped shape me as a leader because I'm dealing with a lot of different people, and I have a great team, but a lot of having a lot of it is my hiring practices and also setting expectations that I want. I want folks to have fun, but I want I want folks to get their work done. And I don't expect folks to work any harder than I would work or to do anything that I wouldn't do. And I lead I really lead from the front by example. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I just remembered you were the one who introduced me to Robert. What's his last name? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Robert J. Robert O. Robert J. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Robert and I bought the dolphin product. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And I always gave Robert his props. He, in my opinion, is the best salesperson in the industry. He is fantastic. And traveling with him. I think I told you one of my trips up to Quebec City in January, and I'm like, what did I do to deserve this? Robert? It was Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, Lordy. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Oh, it's like he's taking this, this American up to Quebec City in January. And but yeah, Robert is great. I haven't talked to him for a while. I, I know he retired a while back, but learned a lot from Robert and he's a he's a great guy. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: He is he is now from early note takers to modern smartphones, technology for blind users has evolved dramatically. Which milestone device or software release do you think was most transformative and why? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So for me I would have to say, and it it was passed by, but. I would say internet browsing on the braillenote. It was passed by because what internet browsing on the braillenote meant was we could then tie into bookshare and NLS and download books. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. And so again, back to the weightlifting analogy. I used to carry around a lot of Braille books. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tell me. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I got to. Got to take a break from weightlifting and just carry my Braille note around with a bunch of books on an SD card. So to me, being a part of just getting that, that modem and the original Braille note to work before there was Wi-Fi access to download a book was truly a phenomenal like that. I mean, there's been flashier things that I've been a part of, just beta testing and dealing with the iPhone and apps, and we'll talk about that, I'm sure. But as far as my personal involvement in something, Being able to move from the hard copy book or even just like transferring a book to a device like you used to be able to do on, on the Braille light and some of the, some of those devices, the Braille and so forth, the old school devices. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: That was truly revolutionary because we we took out a step and we got it from the internet and that will that in my career is one of the best feelings ever, being able to bring that to market. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think for me, like being able to put things on an SD card, a huge yes on a tiny SD card, and then I go around using my victory stream to read the thing and listen to it. I think, oh my gosh. And when I say to my mom, mom, see this little card? It has books on it. She looks at me and she says, what are you talking? So then I have to explain it to her. Yeah. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. So that for me again, I've been involved in some great things. I mean, I was on the front end of the wireless braille displays, connecting to things and all that, and that was all fun. And then obviously some of the, the I device and just dealing with apps and those sorts of things. But as far as my involvement direct involvement, it had to be connected to the internet first so that we can second download materials. It was big in education back then. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Okay. Now Flying Blind LLC and top tech tidbits became, you know, trusted resources for thousands of blind tech users. Yeah. What problem were you trying to solve when you launched them, and what impact are you most proud of from that era? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So the problem, we sort of touched on that. It's like you've got 80. You have an accessible content. What are our strategies for getting great at to work with accessible content. And so I would say let's see as far as my most favorite projects to be involved. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, are you there? Hello. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: For I where we developed courseware on specific to effective effective using the internet. Effective use of the internet. Right. I'm just going back in time and remembering this. And then there was also there was another course on developing listening skills for employment situations. So I've done a few different courses for Hadley, but then probably my my crowning jewel for Flying Blind was, published in iOS in the classroom. Because I had been, I had developed a some professional development courses that I was taken on the road and working with educators on how to introduce these devices in the classroom. And then AFB had me come on to author and publish a book through AFB. So those were both I would say AFB might have won out with Hadley. No disrespect to Hadley. They were both fun, but those were probably the first and second, like my two favorite projects, aside from the day to day work of Flying blind. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Wow. Now, after 14 years as publisher, you handed stewardship stewardship of top tech tidbits over to a new team. What did you learn about sustainability and succession in community run projects, and how can other advocates set their own initiatives? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah, so there's three parts to that answer. The first part is I, after 14 years, was beginning to get a little tired of it. I was also working for the Paciello group, so it was becoming difficult for me to oversee an objective publication because of my role there. And I also just wasn't I mean, I was just full blown invested in that, and I just, I, I had to just admit that this wasn't my passion, and it probably was something that I shouldn't be involved in anymore. So I think first is, are are you are you being effective? The second is if not, what are you going to do about it? And then the third thing is when you decide to hand something off. Enough. And I did a pretty good job of this. You have to hand it off and move on. You can't hand it off and and try to stay with a finger in it, because then you're always going to say, well, I would have done this or I would have done that. And so, you know, I had a good relationship with the, the backbone of, of the, of flying blinds web presence. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And you know, I really wasn't looking to make any money at it. I mean, I could have sold the list and the tidbits publication or tried to do it, but I really wasn't looking to make any money at it. I wanted just to to be sort of a sort of a revenue type hand-off and something where we could just keep it going. I had a fair way to exit where there was something in it for me to exit. But then when I when I flipped the switch and I exited, I was gone. Like, it's just like, I just like you. It's kind of like handing over the car keys, but still wanting to share Shared driving responsibilities. You can't do that. So you have to ask yourself, are you are you effective? If not, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to reignite your passion or are you going to go do something else? And if you decide to do something else, you need to focus on looking at your collaboration and then handing it off. And when you hand it off, you hand it off. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's something I need to to, to keep in mind myself. You know like when you decide to leave, leave. Do not look back. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Otherwise I would have had wrist ruining a good relationship with somebody who I've known a long time because I would have been questioning them and hassling them. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And why are you not doing this? Why are you doing that? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he wanted to take it in a slightly different direction than I than I was. I mean, it's just it's a different It's a different animal now. It's not better or worse. This is different. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's a different different thing. And yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So in your current role as guide sorry. Let's start again. In your current role you guide complex federal and defense clients on digital accessibility. What unique challenges come with marrying security, scalability and usability in those environments. And what strategies have proven most effective for lasting change? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, there's a lot of intersectionality between cyber security and accessibility. And the biggest fallout is malware can be introduced inadvertently to situations. If you're dealing with a, with a cybersecurity Security application that's not accessible. Folks can go where they don't mean to go. And they can they can open up a whole can of worms. So my strategy, especially with defense, is first and foremost, you have to accept cybersecurity wins out every time over accessibility when it comes to keeping systems safe, whether we like it or not, cybersecurity is always going to win because we've got hackers from all over the world and blah, blah, blah. And it's like we have to just bow to the bow, the knee to cybersecurity. But having said that, if you can create interfaces that keep you secure while injecting accessibility into the mix, then you bring along your disabled clientele along for the ride and help them not be part of the problem. I don't I don't have the stats in front of me, but malware gets introduced quite a bit when people go where they're not supposed to go. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And so that's how malware gets downloaded. It might get flagged, might not, or it gets flagged, and then your machine is all screwed up and you don't know what's happening. So a lot can be avoided if you have a secure portal that's also also accessible. But it's it's tricky. Like it's, it's it's not easy. And there's some times especially when you know, you're dealing with you know, certain situations and this, you know, information not getting out and so forth, where all of a sudden you could have a modal pop up on your screen. That's a flash modal to let you know that you're not where you're supposed to be, but your screen reader doesn't read it. Right. And so that's when I think some of these other tools that come into the equation some of the like be my eyes tools and some of these other types of AI tools. It's sort of a three way dance, because now we can bring AI into the mix to sort of bridge the gap between what is accessible and how do we maintain security. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Gosh, you know, not too long ago I got caught. I mean, something came up on the screen, right? Right. Clue what it was. I was a bit sleepy that morning. I pressed enter and I got into big trouble. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. You. So, you know, you're you're I mean, unfortunately, you're a case study of why it's important to have accessibility as part of a cybersecurity plan. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do people realize that though? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: No, it's not realized a lot. And I mean, it's a chore for feds to realize it. But I think everybody, you know, a Cisco or any sort of company like that, they it's a it's a big deal. And I think there's a market for making that known. Because it's a, it's a big deal. And again, I think you know, controlling AI in such a way so that it can help you get out of situations like that. Is is key because, like, there's just a disconnect between your assistive technology provider, like a Jaws or a Freedom Scientific or a dolphin or whatever. And the folks who are making these, these applications that can that can crash your assistive technology. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, God. Tell me about it. I fell into this trap twice in my lifetime. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Oh, man. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't want to go through that again. Sure. Now, your 2016 book, iOS in the classroom. It demystified mainstream tech for teachers of blind students. If you were updating that guide today, what new skills or apps would make your much teach list. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. So use of the camera. Use of AI applications like BMIs and IRA. And there's a handful of others out there. Some mobility applications. I use Voice Vista quite a bit. Yeah. So so I'll slow down. So there's the camera. There's also I have not dove into these smart glasses yet, although I'm getting close. Yeah. I wanted a year, year and a half to go by, so a lot of the bugs would get worked out. I wasn't looking to beta test anything. So I wanted to get a little bit more stability with Ray-Ban and some of these other companies out there. I am probably going to get involved with with smart glasses in the next couple of months. So camera slash smart glasses apps that involve improving your ability to navigate safely, but also AI specific apps, that allow you to do very simple things, like take a picture of your when you're traveling your hotel thermostat and get a layout of the buttons and be able to make it hotter or colder if you're in. If you're in Quebec City in January, you don't want to put the air on. You don't want to put the air on, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes yes yes yes. Oh gosh. Yes. Well, there's so many of these glasses on the market these days. You've got meta glasses. Smart. Yes, yes. I don't know which one to choose anymore. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, I'm figuring it out. I'll be happy to share when I make a make a decision, I'm getting to the point where I want things to calm down. I didn't. I don't always have to be on the front end anymore. I'll let some of. I've done plenty of that in my life. I'll let other folks beat up technology and work some of the bugs out. Yeah, and I'm getting to the point where I would like to be a little more hands free, because I do use my phone a lot. I mean, I use my I use my phone you know, travel around an airport to make sure if I'm at a gate number, taking a picture and having it tell me what it is. I mean, there are things I do with my camera, and I'm like, at some point I do want to be hands free. And just have have that. I just haven't done it yet. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I just find that being on your phone and walking through an airport, if there's too much white noise, it gets me into trouble. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: It can be tricky. I mean, I have used IRA, those initial glasses on the Android phone, and, you know, I had to. You have to tether them up. This is before the wire. Wire, wire, free glass or wireless glasses. And it is pretty cool to be able to do that. But you do have to pay attention. And if you if you don't, you know, you could. We have a phrase in the US that we jokingly say, don't try this at home because it could be dangerous. So so I would say, don't try this at home all the time. But But that's why I'm wanting these glasses to be a little more streamlined. And I think we're getting close. And so I would love to get more involved in that, because I do love not waiting for a gate agent and to striking out on my own and finding my gate using the product like IRA, like it's fun. But at the same time I'm fairly active and fairly good about pretty good mobility, and I don't I don't mind some of the chaos that comes with being on the phone in an airport, but it might not be for everybody. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, it's not for me. But I love IRA. Yes. Yeah. And I might be testing the metal glasses someday. Very soon, but. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Good. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And then there's the envision glasses as well. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So legacy can be a big word, right? When you reflect on three decades in this field, what accomplishments do you hope will still be making a difference ten years from now? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I would like people to remember me as a person who is not a programmer or a developer, but who leveraged technology to get the most out of life. And anything that I've done via like for note taking or iOS or working with a vendor to make their product more accessible or any of that sort of stuff, it all goes back to our tagline at Flying Blind was empowerment through technology. That was our tagline. And so I'm just an ordinary guy who likes jiu jitsu, likes going on hikes with my dogs, likes going to a ballgame, likes doing all these different types of things. And technology has made everything easier from ordering tickets to getting my boarding pass on my phone because I'm terrible about losing things. Back to the ADH thing again. And so I would want to be remembered as the guy that no matter what he did, whether he was selling or teaching or writing or managing the product or leading the team or whatever, he used technology to get the most out of life and and was a person who wasn't really defined by what he couldn't do, but what he could do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I love that. I really like that philosophy, and I think I'm probably the same. I would use technology to get the most out of what I need in my life. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. I mean, I can chop it up with techie folks if I have to and talk about, you know, code remediation and stuff like that. I don't enjoy it. I tried to learn how to script write JAWS scripts, and I can do it enough to get into trouble, but I can't. I don't want to sit still and code like I don't. I don't want to sit still and write scripts or code. I'd rather be more on the what's happening with it and showing people and and interact. I'm not a backroom developer type and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just not me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, not speaking of ball games, Larry, I hope that you are supporting my team. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: You know, any team that beats up the Yankees, I can become a Blue Jays fan really fast, I don't think. I think you have more support nationwide down here, except for Yankees fans. I think everybody's with when the Blue Jays get to the National League because I'm a Cubs fan, then we might have an issue. But for now, I hope the Blue Jays win the American League. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, it's looking good. I mean, they won the first two games tend to win handily. Yeah. I wonder what the Yankees are thinking right now. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I don't see how they come back. I mean, stranger things have happened, but they just need one more. And I hope they blow them out again. It couldn't happen to a nicer team. Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: The Yankees fans are going to unsubscribe from this podcast now. Yes, I apologize for that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Well that's okay. You're just telling me what's on your mind. That's all there is to it. Oh, Lordy. Well, the clock tells me we're coming towards an end here, but I wanted to ask you for your thoughts on where do you think we're going? Where is accessibility going? How is it going to fit into the landscape as we move forward? Especially like with with accessible apps. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well I think AI is a scary thing but it's a, it's a positive thing if you can utilize, you know, machine, you know, human machine learning which is what AI is if you can, if you can use it to solve problems rather than create them. So some of these, you know, screen readers are starting to build AI into telling you what pictures are. Yes, but but I think that will come a point where your screen reader will be a bot and you won't have to load software, and you'll be able to interact with your bot who will read the screen back to you, and you'll be able to type to the bot or talk to the bot. And if I were in the screen reader business, both both Freedom Scientific and Dolphin, I would ditch the downloading of software and begin to create a screen reader bot. That's my free advice for anybody on those teams that are listening. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you think screen readers, the screen reader, developers, and manufacturers need to be paying more attention and looking for ways to get more involved with AI? Do you think or. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I think, I think they are. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They think they are. They're days over a screen readers. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I mean, as we know them and I think they need to accept that. I mean, I don't work for TPG or the Paciello Group anymore. They're owned by the same group who owns Freedom Scientific. I am sick and tired of paying 15, 1600 bucks for a piece of software to run on $1,000 laptop. I'm tired of it. It's not that I can't afford to. It's that it's wrong. And we need to have licensed type. Let's license this bot. I don't mind paying something per month or per year to have this screen reader bot so I can interact with a computer in the same type of way with something that's, that's human like that's going to help me get through accessibility issues. But this whole nonsense and this whole nonsense of paying this much money to do things that we were doing in 1990s, that's over. Like. And they can do this as I jokingly say, we can do it the hard way or the harder way. You know, the hard way is you get on board with it. The harder ways you're going to get run over. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I'm glad you you're saying this because I for years I've really had problems understanding the philosophy of the freedom scientific folks. A lot of blind and visually impaired people can't afford this price. And yet you go and you stab us with these prices, you don't care. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, it's not all that they don't care. It's that they have hired a bunch of programmers and a bunch of people on tech support, and they need to be able to pay for it. So back in the back in the day, like, people also would get mad if, you know, you have a piece of freeware like Nvda, which is great, but there's nobody you can you can't call a phone number and get your. And so that all I mean I'm not siding with them altogether. I'm just telling you the logistics of running a business. But now if you have a human AI screen reading bot. They should be able to do the job of a lot of that. And then the downside is what happens to the 20 people in tech support that get laid off. So there's no there's no easy answer. And I mean, I came on pretty strong with freedom Scientific and Dolphin. But there's no easy solution because if they go down this AI bot road then then then they have a situation where, what do we do with all these jobs that are lost? And this is the problem with AI is it's I mean, I'm seeing it in the accessibility space. There are companies creating AI coding utilities to take the place of, you know, manual testers. It's it's there's no easy answer. But we have to they have to figure it out because the days of traditional screen readers, if there's a traditional screen reader by 2030, I'll be surprised. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I would be too. I would be too, yeah. Wow. Larry, are there any final thoughts you'd like to share with our listeners? Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: No, I just would like to thank anybody on this who's listening, who I've interacted with before. I always jokingly say most of my interactions have been good. It's been a handful of not not good ones with with customers from time to time, both good and bad has helped me grow as a person. So all of my interactions with this industry, mostly positive, a handful of negative have made me has shaped me as a person. And I'm definitely not perfect there. There have been times when maybe I could have done things differently or better. But I appreciate everybody's patience and grace as I try to figure this thing out alongside with all of you. I mean, it's been great. I'm looking forward to to what lies ahead in the next few years and and coming up and it's it's just been a pleasure to to be on the podcast and to share a little bit of who I am with with folks, so I appreciate the opportunity. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I want to thank you for having come on to our podcast. And like I said, you know, you've played a big part or a big role in my life as my mentor, my advisor, my friend, and we will continue to walk the walk. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I appreciate that and I hope everybody has a great ending to the to the the Blue Jays Yankees series. And yeah, we'll see where October takes us and what ends up to be in the last two teams, right? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Well, let's hope for the best. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Great. Thank you Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you Larry. You take care and we'll be in touch. Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: All right. Bye bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now. By. Podcast Comentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #48: Interview with Clare Kumar, Regional Director, Hidden Disabilities Sunflower Canada | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-02-2025/ In this deeply practical and compassionate episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with productivity catalyst and inclusivity advocate Clare Kumar to explore how inclusion and performance rise together when we design "hospitable containers" for work and life. Clare traces her journey through chronic illness and an autism diagnosis to the insight that "productivity is personal," unpacks her Productivity CPR framework, and introduces "neurological safety" as the conditions that let our nervous systems relax so we can contribute at our best. The conversation gets concrete fast: negotiating shared home spaces, using close-miked headsets to curb noise, and taming light with warmer tones and screen dimming, all toward values-aligned, sustainable focus. Donna and Clare also chart the evolution of the Happy Space® Podcast from "where productivity meets inclusivity" to "where inclusion meets design," underscoring why agendas, movement options, and participant agency are simple design choices that change how meetings feel. They then spotlight the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower program, what the bright green lanyard signals, how staff should respond ("How might I support you?"), and the new NFC card that discreetly shares needs without repeated verbal disclosure. Clare shares the origin and relaunch of her Pliio® clothing-filing system, an organizing tool that makes order effortless, and challenges false-consensus thinking behind rigid return-to-office mandates, offering her free Workstyle Profile as a team exercise to move from empathy to practical compassion. The episode closes with an invitation to tune into values, protect well-being, and design environments that invite our "richest contributions", a blueprint for leaders and households alike to build truly happy, inclusive spaces. 👉 Mentioned in this Podcast: Happy Space® Podcast, InclusiviTee™ Line of T-Shirts, Happy Space® Work Style Profile, Pliio® Clothing Management System. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here. Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its website accessible to every Canadian, not just the sighted ones. In July of 2019, 19, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Clare Kumar, I'd like to welcome you to our podcast, and thank you for taking the time to be with us today. Clare Kumar: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be with you, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So, Clare, are we ready to go down to business here? Clare Kumar: You bet. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Every time I hear the name Clare, I think. And you may not have been born at that time, but there was a singer, an Irish singer. His name was Gilbert O'Sullivan. Clare Kumar: Oh, yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And he had this song called Eau Clare. Clare Kumar: The moment I met you, I swear. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Every time I hear the name Clare, I think of that song and I think, oh my lord, you know. Yeah. And I like the way the little kid laughed in the in in the song. Clare Kumar: That's right. At the very end. Yeah. Because uncle Ray, she had to, uncle Ray. Yeah. Singing. I was telling the story when she. Yeah. Won't you marry me, uncle Ray? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Eau Clare. Yes. Clare Kumar: Yes. Yeah. It's a precious song. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I really I wonder what became of him. Clare Kumar: I don't know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Might be dead by now. I shouldn't say. Clare Kumar: That. The song lives on, that's for sure. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Clare, you describe yourself as a quote. Productivity. Productivity catalyst and inclusivity advocate. What pivotal experience first showed you that productivity and inclusion are inseparable? And how does that insight shape the work that you do today? Clare Kumar: Thank you. I yes, I've worked in productivity, moving on from starting work in organization and in people's homes to then realizing the corporate world still needs me, even though I was a little bit traumatized from the corporate world. And I worked for 20 years with people in their homes, in their offices, all the while going on my own personal journey through chronic illness. And most recently being diagnosed autistic about just over a year ago. And what what struck me was a deep understanding of how individuals work and that it wasn't in one way. I have a have a hashtag I use quite often called productivity is personal. And when I started to understand, you know, and really look at the different ways people choose to work and prefer to work and really do their best. Yeah, I zoomed out and I thought, well, you know, as leaders, we can want the best from our teams. But there's a bias called false consensus effect, which leads us to think that the way we think and act ought to be the way other people think and act. And because of that, we make some very wrong assumptions. And so I thought, you know what I want to bridge individual performance and collective performance and understand that it looks very different, and invite leaders to think about the fact that we we also perform under wildly different conditions when we're at our best. And so that's my work today. Now, coming out of all of that insight and my own personal experience of being designed out of the corporate world, essentially, and I'm like, wait a minute, if that's happening to me, it's happening to thousands and thousands of other people. And I think that it's a bit of a crime to to not offer people the conditions in which they can excel. Sheerly from a reason of bias and false assumption. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. Yeah. Now many of our listeners juggle Energy Limitus sensory sensitivities or chronic fatigue. Could you explain your quotation mark? Productivity us see a percentage. Clare Kumar: It's CPR. Yeah. Productivity CPR. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Sorry. Clare Kumar: That's okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Framework capacity and priorities. Recovery and share one practical way someone could put into action or put put it into into action this week. Clare Kumar: Yeah. Oh thank you. So productivity CPR came out of working with individuals who wanted to be more productive at work. And they'd often come to me with a question about a to do list or perfectionism or procrastination. Nation, and I realized that we had to zoom out a little bit, and we had to look at well-being and we had to look at values. And so that's why before before coming to what I call rituals are tried and true practices that we like to engage in, I wanted to to also pardon me, to excuse my tickly throat. We we wanted to zoom out and look at performance, which is the P in CPR, and that's well-being. And that comes from my own health journey as well. And being out even bigger than that is our values and what's important to us, which frame our priorities. And so one practical way, something that someone can do today, I, I think is the zooming out piece because what I, what I say has the biggest return is making sure your energy and attention is aiming in the right direction. And if you are at in work or in a significant relationship, or really struggling against your innate values, that's going to be your biggest productivity thief. We'll have things like moral injury, being asked to work for an organization we don't believe in. We'll have big gaps and that's the biggest piece forward. So some tuning in to say, am I in alignment? Am I aware and am I in alignment with the work I'm being called to do? And if not, that's that would be my biggest invitation. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now you spent 15 years inside large tech firms before launching your own your own consultancy and you know stream life. What Lessons from Corporate Life still guides your advice to leaders who really want truly human centered workplaces? Clare Kumar: It's interesting. I think in our experience, we're often given positive role modeling, and then we're also given examples of things we might not want to do. And so I'll offer you up a positive example. And this will go back to my work at a loyalty management firm actually in the mid 90s. And their leader. Pardon me. Their leader was incredibly astute at tuning into individual performance, recognizing what environments invited someone to thrive. And I remember we we had switched offices and all of a sudden I had found we had moved and in a new office. I was given an office where I was in the middle of everything, and this office had some beautifully fun characters who liked to play Nerf gun wars in the afternoon. And and I really struggled to have a client conversation in that environment. I think my president then noticed and I was able to move to a quieter location, which which suited me better. So that's one that's one lesson. One positive lesson. Unfortunately, I have a whole slew of things not to do that I also carry forward, but that that also has a positive role in my work today too. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh good lord. Now, listeners may have noticed sunflower lanyards appearing in airports and arenas arenas as the Canadian regional director for the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower program. What does the lanyard signal and why is it such a powerful tool for cultivating compassion in customer service? And before you answer, I just wanted to to let you know that I only learned about the sunflower. My goodness, might have been the a year ago through Cathy Saliba, who we both know who introduced us. I didn't know anything about the sunflower until I met with her, and then she brought up the sunflower. So I will let you answer my question. Clare Kumar: Thank you. Yes. And thanks. Shout out to Cathy for this introduction. Yeah. I I'm grateful. Grateful for that. Now, the sunflower program, if people are, would like to kind of bring this to their imagination. Now, how you might imagine it is, is an individual who has a hidden disability or non-apparent condition. They might choose to wear a lanyard, and that lanyard will be this gorgeous bright green. And on it you'll find bright yellow sunflowers. And that sunflower is a symbol that that person does live with, a condition that might warrant more the need for more patients, more time, more kindness. And so it's making something invisible, non-visible, visible to people with sight. So I will I will be super clear about that. I I think it's effective for staff to be able to Recognize someone who's choosing. It's totally voluntary. Item to wear when you feel like it will serve you. It's a reminder that. Oh, wait a minute. Let me remember to view this person with compassion and curiosity and meet them with an offer of support. So my personal mission with, along with the the move from individual performance to collective performance is really around inviting a more compassionate culture. And this sunflower is a symbol we've needed to indicate that we need to park that false consensus, that bias that I was talking about. We need to move aside from that which is which is really our brains own productivity tool. Bias is is one of those things our brain uses to make quick sense of the situation. The possibilities. We get it wrong. And the sunflower is a cue to remind you to say double check. Are you making an assumption here, or do you want to lean into back into your curiosity and meet that passenger or resident of a municipality student at a university? All kinds of organizations around the world now use the sunflower, and I'm delighted to be growing the program here in Canada. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's what I would call the soft approach. Clare Kumar: How do you mean? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I guess the soft approach is like it's a it's a very tactful way of getting people to be aware. Clare Kumar: It's I guess it offers a bit of subtlety. Yeah. It allows a bit of discretion and subtlety and what I, what I like about the organization is they recognize this. And more recently they came out with a new card that individuals can order and customize, that allows an individual instead of having to repeat verbally their needs every time. Imagine you're traveling through an airport and every person you meet, you have to explain what your needs are. Yes, yes, this card will actually it has what's called NFC or near-field communication technology. It will allow you to hold it up to a telephone or a smartphone, yours or someone else's, and bring up temporarily information about what your needs are. So if the person can read that screen, then they will be able to determine what support you need without you having to to verbalize it. So great for people who are nonverbal. Also, it say it adds a little bit more discretion so that you may not want to repeat it in a in a place where you can be heard and also be tired of repeating it. So it also reduces some of the cognitive demand and energy required. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like that I am legally blind, so that I often rely on staff who may not recognize my disability at first glance. How can organizations train frontline teams to respond appropriately without crying when they see the sunflower? Clare Kumar: Yeah. You know, it's part of the program that any organization that joins as a member at the at the, you know, of a significant size, they undergo sunflower awareness training to understand what's the sunflower, which we described just recently, briefly what's a hidden disability or a hidden condition to give a sense of the the huge scope of different conditions that exist. And then what should I do if I see a sunflower? And prying is definitely not part of it. There is absolutely no need or reason to disclose a diagnosis, a condition. It's really around saying, how might I support you? And for the individual to say I would, I would be helped by. And so it's focusing on barriers and needs rather than condition. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. Yeah. Now your Happy Space registered podcast explores where product productivity meets inclusivity. Which recent guest story surprised you most. And why should leaders pay attention to it? Clare Kumar: Thank you so much. The Happy Space podcast has been a bit of an evolution from my first identifying as a highly sensitive person to now being aware of autism for myself. And and I've actually evolved since I, since the information you were so kindly looking at to pull all of these wonderful questions together, I've evolved slightly from productivity meeting inclusivity to it's where inclusion meets design, because I'm most interested now in inviting more hospitable containers, those environments, our space, culture or experience where people can perform at their best. And so when I'm thinking of Guest stories. And what surprised me. There's so many. I mean, what's really interesting is I've been recording the podcast for during the past three years. And number two case, Sergeant of Hoch, which is a global architecture and design firm. I invited her back for I think it's episode 58. Yeah. So so Kay and I have come to know each other a little bit, and she's written a book all about neuro inclusive workplace design. And she's got five children. There's neurodiversity in her family and, you know, talking to Kay about her own, her own experience and then how it's informed her professional work around inclusion and neurodivergence in particular has been really powerful for me from from episode two. Like I said, she was my. I was so excited when she agreed to be on episode two of a fledgling brand new podcast and then rejoin me when her book came out. And what I like to do on the podcast is share. Shine a light on thought leaders in the space. And also, what I'm looking forward to is throwing more light on examples of more hospitable environments, spaces, culture and experiences that are getting it right so more people are being included. I'm on the hunt for those are okay. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, go for it. Hybrid work is here to stay. Yet many home offices are noisy or pure or poorly lit. What are three sensory friendly adjustments? Any employee can make to create what you call happy space for focus. Clare Kumar: Oh my gosh, I love this question because I saw so many people, even pre-pandemic, working in the basement. Clare Kumar: And for for noise reasons that can be effective because there's a division. But boy, are you starved for light in a lot of basements that I've been in. So I think, you know, when when space is under pressure, we have to then look at our communication and the other users in the space and may need to negotiate sharing that space effectively. I mean, in the pandemic, I saw people, young professionals who who, you know, in sharing a 500 square foot condo and two desks in the living room. And, boy, there needs to be some negotiation and flexibility. And and you know, that was really tough I think I think I would I'm, I'm surprised to see that doors haven't become more popular, given the pressures we were under during the pandemic and shared spaces that that Doris haven't become more more appreciated. But I think it is also our recognition that light is so important. So three sensory friendly adjustments that any employee employee can make. I think one is, one is first really negotiating and really intentionally having a discussion with whether it be roommates or family members about, hey, what's your week looking like? What design opportunities do we have to take care of each other in our need to share this space? I mean, my my love is here right now, actually, because he's recovering from a surgery. And so we're sharing this space, and I need to let him know when I need quiet. And he needs to let me know when the soccer tournaments are on. And he wants to watch something. So we have to have a, you know, a conversation about priorities is really a beautiful starting point in shared space. I think when it comes to sound, headphones are a wonderful addition. We were just having a conversation about this at home, actually, when you talk to a microphone that is on your computer or on your phone and it's some distance away from your face. Yeah. Tend to shout at it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I know that. Yeah. Clare Kumar: So if you can a have the microphone close to you, you, you no longer feel the need to project your voice at it. And if you're wearing headphones, you're also getting the sound back in your ear, which gives you a real consciousness of what you're projecting so that can bring the volume down, along with the intent to speak only as loudly as necessary. I use this in my workshops too, when I am running an exercise with a room full of people. I will remind the room several times and the room never gets loud. So that's huge. And then lighting is really important to talk about because there is a huge lack of awareness around safe lighting. Given that LED lighting and screens are so prevalent. Most people I think are familiar with night mode and low light on their screens now, and I encourage everyone to do that. I highly recommend f dot f l u x as a free app you can put on your computer which will dim your screen with the sunset. It's a beautiful, beautiful tool. Yeah. And also being aware of your light fixtures. A lot of people now are using cold color, temperature, LED lighting, and the wavelengths can at those cold temperatures, we were meant to only have colder color temperature in broad daylight. But we're now putting bulbs in our homes at night with those wavelengths, which can disrupt circadian rhythm. They can trigger migraine. For me, my eyes are sensitive to those colors. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Clare Kumar: And if we want to be careful about the humans in the space, and probably the pets too, I would bet. Yeah. Having lighting that reflects the lighting outside is a really good cue. And at night, then dimming and warming up the tones and even bringing light, bringing light down. So lamps on the side you know, closer to where we are is a much better option. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think people think of that, though. Clare Kumar: I know, I think we're sold. Faster is better, brighter is better, louder is better. And we're not we're not necessarily connecting it to well-being, but we're not even necessarily aware. I find as a as a sensitive person, I'm very tuned to this. But what happens is I've been at a party, for example, and I've dimmed the lights and several people will turn around and look at me and go, My God, that feels so much better. No one would have articulated that there was a problem and be certainly not gone to dim the lights themselves. So I, I find that I think this is an example of autistic insensitive people being the canary in the coal mine, if you will, and being aware of toxicity, whether it be smell as well, smell. You know, I'm really I'm really narrowing my focus to sound, light and scent, which are pervasive in the environment and can really trigger adverse reactions in people. And a lot of people are really conditioned to overlook it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I can really empathize, especially with noise and scent. You know, when I had enough functional sight I could also empathize with, with, you know, the lighting and everything like that. So I get what you're saying. Clare Kumar: Well I wonder, I wonder even too whether the lighting might I believe it does affect people with low vision and who are blind to the color temperature indeed may affect as well. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it does, because when I think about it, I think it does. And I think it's it's something that we all need to become much more aware of these things if we want to create, you know, like user friendly environments. Right. Clare Kumar: Yeah, absolutely. And, and what we I mean you would live this all the time. What we can't see can't we, we really have to make an extra effort to remember to deal with it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. What we can't hear in the case of my mom. Yeah. We have to become more familiar with it as well. Clare Kumar: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, you often speak about and I'm going to quote you here, neurological safety. And for listeners new to that term, including myself. Could you paint a picture of what a neurologically safe meeting feels like, and perhaps contrast it with a common meeting mistake. Clare Kumar: Well, what a beautiful question. Get me to be really practical right off. Which is? Which is no, which is brilliant. Let me apply. So let me give you a brief description of neurological safety. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Clare Kumar: And I've, I've created this term because Pardon me. I've used the term neurological safety to really represent the conditions that our nervous system needs to relax and feel comfortable, to move forward with ease. I, I in. I've been told in certain markets it's not a palatable analogy, but the red poster with Keep Calm and Carry On, which is a World War Two poster. So I'm very sensitive to people who might be like, no thank you. But in North America, it's been turned into a quite commonly used meme with all kinds of different interpretations and different meanings. But the idea is we want a container that doesn't invite us to want to leave. Our nervous system is not stressed. We're like, yes, I belong here. I'm comfortable. I can keep moving forward. So it's passengers in an airport who are not stressed out by the security interaction. It's it's students in a in a schoolroom who can follow the teacher's instructions. It's somebody in a theater who's not plugging their ears because the number is too loud or strobe lights are flashing or. So it's all of these elements that really invite people to say, whoa, I'm not safe here. And I don't think we've ever had a term to collectively talk about how we can feel this nervous system safety to be able to continue. So that's what the term means. Clare Kumar: When I think about a meeting I mean I can think about all kinds of things from let's say not having an agenda to start with. Right. Right. So if we think of someone like myself with autism who really loves knowing what's going to happen and when and can relax because of that knowing, there's one easy example a meeting with I went to a conference a couple of weeks ago. Amazing speakers. Amazing world class, no agenda. I didn't know how to prioritize my energy and attention to be able to get the most out of that day. And if I'm driven by FOMO, a sense of fear of missing out, then I try to attend the whole thing. And now I'm exhausted. So that's one example of for me, it was very frustrating to know I had missed probably the speaker I would have loved to hear. And this sense of design it so everybody has to be there for everything is simply not respectful. So I think it's really important to think about the structure of the meeting and the modality of how we're sharing information, the invitations to move physically. So if somebody can't sit in a chair, then let them sit on the floor, let them stand at the back, the invitations to engage in different ways with different formats and to to be have some agency in how they participate, I think are maybe three simple things that we can do to make engagement feel more neurologically safe. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, boy, am I ever learning so much about comfort and meaning. What it really means, you know now, and I hope I have this pronounced correctly the registered clothing filing, is that correct? Clare Kumar: Pleo. Exactly. Pleo. You said it perfectly. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Okay, so let's start again. The Pleo registered clothing filing system that you co-invented has been sold on QVC and HSN. What sparked that idea, and how did you bridge the gap between a clever organizing hack and a mass market product? Clare Kumar: Oh thank you. What a journey this has been. I have to give full credit to Yuriko Zakimi, who was my partner in the business and co-inventor of Pleo. It's something that the concept she came up with, and we worked on it together to patent the idea and and further develop the line. So we are co-inventors of the, the system. And we actually even had it at bed Bath and Beyond in Canada, the US and Mexico. So, so to to take an idea and turn it into a mass market product is I think it's, I think it's 0.03% of patented ideas actually make it to market. Right? Statistic I learned it oh, probably over a decade ago. So it takes it takes a lot of effort and belief. And I think what, what Eureka and I had together, which was beautiful, we had a great combination of skill sets, her creativity and industrial design background, my savvy as a marketer and understanding the organization market. Because this this product helps you fold clothes and gives them an infrastructure. So it's a template that stays inside each garment. And instead of a piece of paper, for example, like a instead of a t shirt is pretty floppy. And I would like it to a piece of paper to manage. But we turn that piece of paper into a book. And so that t shirt is now a six by nine inch book. You can put on a shelf in a drawer in a suitcase because of the product that's inside. Clare Kumar: And we did all of this before Marie Kondo came on the market and kind of popularized the idea of folding in such a way that you could see your clothes. We were we were well ahead of of Marie doing her great work. And so it was interesting to be ahead of the market and try and teach people about something they didn't know. What I'm thrilled is I'm back in market now with a new partner with Patricia Bello. Sorry, she's a Canadian inventor and product company, and she is now managing the manufacturing of Pleo. And we're we're working again to make it available. And I'm told it's selling well. And you know, I'm really excited because I think we had, you know, almost close to five star reviews and people loved it. It was just really difficult to tell the story on a package. But now that we have video and now that Marie Kondo has taught a lot of people about folding vertically even though she didn't use a product I think what what what cinched it for me that this should be a product is I was working with people in their homes and teaching them to fold vertically. Like I said back in 2005, 2006. And what I found was everybody would have to refold their entire drawer every couple of weeks because things would just mess up. The fabric would stick to each other, one shirt would stick to another, and within two weeks you had to fold everything again. Clare Kumar: Right. Cleo, you fold. You fold. Right. Stays neat. It's like that's the brand promise. You fold it and then it stays beautiful. So it's It's been a labor of love. It's been a lot of work and a lot of faith in an idea. But then so much fun, too. I've had so much fun experience meeting people and watching the moment where their eyes, you know, their their jaw drops when they, they see there's a moment in the folding where you lay a t shirt down flat. I'll try and describe it for you, Donna, and for your listeners as well. Sure. Take a t shirt sideways to you and put it. Let's just say you're going to fold on a on a table. Yeah. Put that down. And then the Pleo clothing filer, the the main model is about nine inches wide and 17in long. And in that are two hinged areas which allow you to fold that into three pieces. When you place that on a t shirt, though, you lay it flat and then you fold the t shirt around it first each side, then the bottom and the top. So now you've got the whole Pleo filer is embedded in that t shirt. And then you just flip it twice and you take that three pieces and make it the one book size. Have I have I have I have I lost or have I done an okay job explaining that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've done an okay job? And I have to tell you that my mom would love to hear all about this because she's very high and falling. Clare Kumar: Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very, very high. Clare Kumar: Okay, well, com is where she could see she and your listeners to if they're curious and they want to see a little image of how it's done, that would be where you can actually see what it looks like. And yeah, I find, I find it's it's wonderful people who want to have a neat environment. It's wonderful for travel in particular. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Clare Kumar: But it's it's also made people with less dexterity or less inclination to organize, feel really proud of what they can create with very low effort. So this connects again to performance. And recognizing people like to do things differently and giving a tool to have really beautiful results, but bringing the effort down. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is so interesting. I gotta go tell her about this. Now, parents of neurodivergent or highly sensitive kids sometimes fear that rigidity will stifle creativity, yet chaos can overwhelm. What balance do you recommend for fostering both order and imagination at home? Clare Kumar: I love this question so much. Because personally, along with my autism, I have a side order of ADHD. And if we're talking neurodivergent, neurodivergent shows up very, very differently. And I've already mentioned the idea that productivity is personal. So let's take those assumptions and say, okay, what does it look like now? Adhd can have a great need for stimulation and novelty. Autism, on the other hand, I mentioned I like to know what's going to happen and when. Right? I need this idea of structure. And clearly I've got behind an organizing product so that that makes things neat. But imagine the creativity that came in creating that organizing product that delivers structure. So my invitation for anyone listening is to think about and tune into, first of all, the person's preference, what they're naturally gravitating toward, because that will likely continue. Do not put a system in that someone is. It's too fussy. There's too much structure. I think you put in as little structure as you need to feel calm, to feel neurologically safe. Okay, so when you have structure That makes you feel relaxed. That's the right amount of structure. For some, that will mean a basket with t shirts in it, and they can just pick one. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Or. Clare Kumar: Somebody else. It might mean color coded hangers. This is not not that I'm talking about myself at university, but all my clothes match the color of the hangers that I have. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay. Clare Kumar: Because I found it visually beautiful. It was dialing down visual chaos and and so it doesn't look like one thing. And even, even for someone, they might feel very calm in their car, for example, to have everything have a home or in their office to have a lot of structure, but in another environment they may not want that. So it's almost place by place and personality by personality, temperament by temperament. Looking at the propensity to create order, I actually developed a whole organizing personality matrix, looking at the propensity to create order that that drive piece versus on the opposite axis, the tolerance for chaos, the tolerance for that visual stimulation and disarray. And depending on what quadrant you're in, you're either someone who has no interest and no drive in order, and that's that. If we think of The Odd Couple, that old show, you would have the polar opposites there. You'd have someone who has no need for order and structure, and then Felix and Oscar. Right. And then one character who need extreme order. Well, there's often also people who are not able to have the drive and energy to create that order. Adhd and dopamine and motivation are often a challenge. Clare Kumar: So figuring out how to tap into motivation is really important in that place. And then people who have a really low tolerance for, for disorganization, they're going to have likely a natural, more motivation to create that order. If they're not bothered by it. Then there's, there's, there's a difference than in their internal drive to do it from a drive to order and a tolerance from chaos. So there's there's four personalities in there which are kind of interesting to look at. And then if you've got a family or a shared office pinpointing where each person is to just understand their perspective is a beautiful, beautiful way of reaching out to understand, oh, you see it like this. Oh, wow, that's really interesting. How can we find a way for you to help me take care of me? And how can we help you take care of you? What compromises can we make? I mean, at university, I had a lovely roommate, but she had. She was brilliant, intellectually brilliant, but had really she said to me, oh my God, I've never thought of putting something back in the same place, I got it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, God. Clare Kumar: Yeah. So when she used to leave for weekends I would cover her side of the room with orange blankets. I have pictures of this. I would cover it. And then when she decided when she was back in the room, I hung the blankets from the ceiling because I could not. I could not take the visual stimulation from the mess of her room, her side. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I fall into the category. I absolutely dislike chaos. Everything has to be in order. And you know, some people say to me it's because they're vision impaired. And I'm saying, no, I don't think so. Clare Kumar: Yeah, it's quite possible that you have taking sight out of it. You have an appreciation for that order. It brings you comfort. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything must be in order for me in my kitchen. It has to be organized. My mom is the same thing. My sister in law is the same thing. But another sister in law of mine. Oh my God. Everything is all over the place. Clare Kumar: Yeah. Yeah. And as an organizer, I saw everything. I would walk into some homes and they would say, oh, gosh, I apologize for the mess. And I would be like, I can't even see a mess. Like, I don't see evidence of disorder. But then you'd open a cupboard and tucked away behind the cupboard or in a drawer. That's so outwardly, at first glance, there wasn't disorder, but inside there was. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Clare Kumar: But then, you know, on my intake form, I used to have a question. Do you like to pick and pluck so you can, you can see or identify what's in in a drawer because you can feel it and you can identify what's there. And you can take what you need. Or do you like to rummage around and kind of guess what things are and then go, oh yeah, now I've got it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't like to rummage around at all. It has to be in its place or else I get very confused. Clare Kumar: Yes. I didn't think anybody would pick rummage until I met people that like to pick rummage. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Really? Clare Kumar: Yes. That's how. That's how broad a range it is. So yes, I want to. I want to feel like I'm rummaging in my wardrobe every day. I'm like, oh my gosh, I felt that's uncomfortable for me. But for them, that was home. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my God, I just learned something new. Yeah, I like to rummage. Clare Kumar: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Our clock is starting to wind down, but I like this next question for you. Okay. You hold coaching credentials from International Coaching Federation and Royal Roads University. When you coach executives who are skeptical about flexibility. What breakthrough conversation tends to change their minds? Clare Kumar: What a what an amazingly salient point right now, given a lot of pressure from government and banks and financial institutions on driving a return to office. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Clare Kumar: I'm it's it's saddens me because I'm not hearing in this conversation an acknowledgment of of disability and caregiving and a multitude of reasons why it makes sense to be flexible. What I one conversation I remember with a tech executive probably three years ago now, was a conversation exactly around false consensus effect, which we started our conversation with. And I remember that gentleman saying to me, oh yeah, yeah, working from home. It's great. You know, it's great for anything administrative, but any real work I get done, I do that in the office. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow. Okay. Clare Kumar: Yeah. And I thanked them for their for sharing their observation. And I said, you know, would it be interesting for you to know that somebody else might say the exact opposite? Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Clare Kumar: Yeah. And just how you said, you know what? All people like to rummage. Oh my gosh. That false consensus. False consensus effect bias is huge. We just assume like, if I get my best work done in the office, then you, Donna, you should get your best work done in the office, too. Right, right. And so I, I really urge people to hold on to that concept that productivity is flexibility, that nuance is necessary, that autonomy is for adults. These are all hashtags I use. And some of them I've put on my line of t shirts I call Inclusive Cities, which are kind of fun. But they're, they're important messages and they're in a recent keynote I just gave talking about inclusion as a design opportunity. I think that the more conscious we are about honoring the fact that people work differently and their lives present different needs on top of whatever preference they might have for working, there are other constraints at play. And I urge leaders to really have the patience to say compassionate, to be creative and be courageous enough to hold on to the fact that equity is not equality. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like that equity is not equality. I think you're right. I agree with you there. Clare Kumar: Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But people don't think about it, you know, like they think, well, you know, I love to rummage through things. So therefore, Clare, you you must like to do the same. Donna, you must like to do the same, right? Well, it's not so. People don't think enough, you know, they just. They just think that because they do it that way, then the rest of the world probably does it that way. Clare Kumar: Or should do it that way. Exactly. When they're in a in a place of power. Yeah. I think too, that we don't recognize enough what we ask of people around the work environment itself. And right now, where I live in Toronto, a commute is a significant energy and expense. And indeed there is personal risk. If you're going to get on a car, you're going to be at risk. If you're going to get on the subway, you may be at risk. Yeah. There is there is a cost to all of that. And I do not think organizations do a good job of acknowledging the ask they're making of employees. You know, you go to a wedding and people say thank you to so and so. Who flew in from Finland? Thank you. So, you know, even at the concert I'm at, you're an amazing audience. Thank you for coming today. Yeah, we we tend to have some gratitude for that effort, but not at work. You know, I'm expecting you as part of the contract. And you know what? Oh, too bad for you that now the commute is 50% longer, 90% more expensive and riskier. Too bad. Suck that up. You know. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's your problem, not mine kind of thing, right? Clare Kumar: Yeah. And I think it's. I think it's lacks compassion. Yeah. And it's I think we're on the hunt for the hack. We're on the quest for the quick solution. And we really need to cultivate an expectation that people deserve patience. Clare Kumar: To, to meet that nuance and explore. Well what will make it work. I mean, I did it, I created something called the Workstyle profile, which is a free questionnaire people can take to help articulate the conditions that invite your best work. And it's a precursor to a team program where a team can come together and everybody on there has done their workstyle profile. And not only that, they've had a conversation with another team member. They introduced that team member at the meeting. So in the process, they were invited to move from empathy to compassion. The person doesn't have to speak up for their own needs. So I would say, hey, this is Donna. Everybody meet Donna. She's a person who is legally blind, and she would benefit from these things when she's going to have her best work experience. So it's not. Donna, come to the table and put your hand up and say what you need. Which feels a lot like can feel comfortable when you're in the habit of it, but it can feel all kinds of uncomfortable for someone with a new diagnosis or new condition, or still finding the words, or doesn't even have a diagnosis to to start speaking about needs. It's very difficult. And so I wanted to look at a way that we could smooth the path and build compassion in the process. And then we have a meeting where we talk about what's really necessary. Well, you know, what our our touch points where we're actually in collaboration are generally small points in the day and not every day, depending on the role. So let's get clear on what we actually really need and then back off and allow autonomy and agency for grown ups to self-manage their own performance. Their performance will tell you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Clare Kumar: Right. Yep. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Clare, do you have any last minute thoughts to share with our listeners. As our clock is saying to me, we're almost out of time. Clare Kumar: I think my invitation is to, in a hustle culture where we're expect to be doing and pushing forward all the time and more is better, all of that. I invite people to really tune in, get clear on those values, get clear on what you need for your well-being. And then from there, design your environment so that you can step into those rituals that we talked about early on so that you can make your richest contribution. Because my belief is everyone deserves a fulfilling life to be fulfilled. We must receive. To receive, we must first give and to be able to give. We need that hospitable world inviting our richest contributions. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. I do agree with you on that. And that's a wonderful thought to close on, and I want to thank you for having taken the time to, you know, come in and I think our listeners would really benefit from this interview in that a lot of us don't think of these things. So I want to thank you for having come today. And if at any time you wish to return, please reach out. Clare Kumar: Thank you. Donna, what a pleasure to be with you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. And you take care. Have a great holiday and we will catch you later this month. Clare Kumar: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Clare. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #55: Unaffordable Access Technology | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-01-2025-B/ In this timely episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan zeroes in on the persistent problem of unaffordable access technology. She explains how high prices keep essential tools out of reach for the very people who need them most, including seniors and those who feel technically shy, which in turn shuts them out of everyday online activities such as banking, travel, and shopping. Donna challenges developers, designers, companies, and manufacturers to change both pricing and attitudes. She questions the idea that the market is too small to serve, points to rapidly growing consumer segments, and reminds listeners that accessible tech benefits millions well beyond the disability community. Her call to action is clear and urgent: make access technology more affordable and more available so no one is left behind. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles. She just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello there! My name is Donna and welcome to the second week of my October biweekly remarkable bi weekly commentary. And I want for today to address the topic of unaffordable access technology. So what is unaffordable access technology all about? Okay. This is something that has perpetuated over the years, and it does not seem to be getting any better. It is a chronic challenge slash problem for many of us who cannot afford to have the best and greatest technology under our fingers. And especially when it comes to access technology. It continues to be out of the reach of those who really, really need it. And it affects different groups in different ways in that if we cannot have the best and greatest access technology, it means that we are being left behind when it comes to engaging and communicating online. No matter which industry it is, it could be the banking industry, the travel industry. It could be, you know, doing your shopping, anything like that. That's what it is all about. Okay. So. It's unaffordable to so many. And this obviously leads to falling behind when it comes to groups such as seniors, those who are technically shy, those who simply cannot afford to purchase access technology to help them out. Okay. And. Developers, designers and companies continue to price their products beyond the reach of the pockets of. Those customers I just talked about, it's beyond their reach because they cannot afford it. And especially so for access technology. You know, you have a lot of people who depend on screen readers, for example, who depend on technology that enlarges their screens, who depend on technology for different reasons. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Access technology is unaffordable, and we need to find ways to bring down the prices of these pieces of technology. We need to convince society as a whole that access technology benefits so many people, millions of people worldwide, not just seniors, not just the technology, not just persons with disabilities. It benefits many, many others. And this is what I think we're missing out on. Now. Is it because developers and manufacturers and others believe that it's a very small market? Is this why they do not put much effort into making sure that access technology is made available in an affordable manner to others? What is it? So we need to start working on developers, designers and companies and manufacturers to get them to buy into a truthful fact that access technology is unaffordable because of their present barriers and attitudes. But access technology can be beneficial to many, many people. In addition to seniors, the technically shy persons with disabilities. And let me just say that the markets, the consumer markets for seniors and for persons with disabilities is growing rapidly. So we need to step in and start pushing developers, designers, companies and manufacturers to find ways to make access technology more affordable and more available. Okay. I'm Donna Jodhan, wishing you a great rest of the day, a great rest of the week, and a great rest of the month. Please contact me at Donna Jodhan at gmail.com. And that's about d o n j o d h a n. It's Donna Jodhan at gmail.com. Take care now and we'll see you the next time. Bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #54: The Self Checkout Sword | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-10-01-2025-A/ In this thoughtful episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan examines what she calls "the self checkout sword", a double edged shift in retail in which companies cut costs by installing self checkout kiosks while people who rely on cashier roles lose vital income. She asks who benefits and who is left out, and she urges listeners to weigh convenience and savings against the human and social costs. Donna also spotlights the accessibility gap. Seniors often struggle with touchscreens, and many people with disabilities, herself included, find these kiosks unusable. She shares a practical workaround: request a cashier or supervisor and state that the kiosk is not accessible. She calls for a true equal playing field built through accessible design from the start, and she invites feedback and ongoing dialogue. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Impossible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello there. I'm Donna, and welcome to my remarkable bi weekly world commentary for October. It's my first bi weekly world commentary for October. And for today I'd like to talk about the self checkout sword. This is a topic that is very near and dear to my heart. And as someone who continues to advocate for there to be a an equal playing field for everyone, I think it is important for me to voice my opinion about the self checkout sword. What do I mean by this? Well, with self checkout kiosks, companies definitely save on costs but at the same time, persons who depend on additional or extra income are deprived, and there are a lot of people who are being deprived of additional or extra income because with the self checkout kiosks, it means that they're less cashiers at the supermarket and at different stores. And so these people who depend on income as cashiers are deprived. So here we have the self checkout sword as I call it. Yeah. Companies are saving on costs because they're cutting down on manpower. But at the same time you have persons who depend on extra or additional income. They are being shut out of work. Okay. In addition to this, we have seniors and persons who depend on staff for assistance, because it is difficult for many seniors to negotiate and navigate those touch screens. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And for persons with disabilities, especially for someone like myself with a vision impairment, we cannot use those touch screens. So then what do we do? I'll tell you what I do. I go and find a cashier, or I go and find a supervisor, and I say to them very professionally, very gently, hey, I cannot use your self-checkout kiosk because it is not accessible and it is not usable. So this is a third reason for the self-checkout sword, as I call it. Okay. I wonder if there has been enough thought put into self-checkout kiosks. Who do these kiosks affect? What are the benefits? Okay, yes, the benefits are to companies, but the disadvantages are to persons who depend on extra or additional income as cashiers. And it is a disadvantage, a huge disadvantage to seniors who cannot use touch screens, and to persons with disabilities who cannot use touch screens. So this is my take on the self checkout sword for this week. I'm Donna Jodhan, wishing you a great day and look forward to seeing you the next time. Bye for now. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna Jodhan at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #47: Interview with Denis Boudreau, Founder, Inklusiv Communication | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-09-29-2025/ In this illuminating episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes longtime mentor and accessibility leader Denis Boudreau for a wide-ranging conversation about how he "accidentally" found his calling. Denis traces his path from early-2000s web development to discovering W3C accessibility guidelines, then defining "inclusive communication" with a deliberate focus on disability, visible and invisible. He unpacks who gets left out when we design by assumption, explaining why accessibility benefits a far larger slice of the population than many leaders realize, from older adults to neurodivergent colleagues and people with color-vision differences. The discussion shifts from standards to strategy: compliance is only the starting line, Denis argues, and real progress comes when leaders embed accessibility into goals, accountability, and culture. He makes the case for certification to align interpretations, describes a maturity-model approach to capability building, and outlines what an effective engagement looks like, from discovery interviews to coaching across areas like communication, digital accessibility, and workplace practices. Looking ahead, he's cautiously optimistic about AI's role while warning against quick-fix overlays, and he leaves listeners with a pragmatic mantra: progress over perfection, step by step. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here. Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just the sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to improving. Sorry to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Denis Boudreau, I'd like to welcome you to my podcast. You have been my mentor, advisor and friend for the past few years, so welcome to my show. Denis Boudreau: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, so first off, I'd like to ask this question to you. You have been working at the intersection of accessibility and cue and communication for over two decades. And you founded inclusive communication back in 1999. What originally drew you into this field and how has your mission evolved since those early days? Denis Boudreau: So accessibility to me was an absolute accident. Probably one of the most the ones that I'm most grateful for in my entire career. I started off in 1997 as a web developer coding, designing things, building web pages. And in the summer of 2000 project manager at the company that I was working with came up to me and said, hey, we just found we just won this bid for a redesign of a website, and it was for the the McGill University Hospital. Like I the only the French name comes to mind right now, but University hospital in Montreal and they, they have a a wing of the hospital dedicated to eye trauma. And they're asking for a website that blind people can use, figure something out. And, like, nobody knew what to do. And I had a reputation for being the person to go to when when people didn't know what to do, I guess so they said, figured that out. And and back then we were barely using Google. Right. It was still Northern Lights or AltaVista for the most part. So that's what I did. I went online and then looked for websites for blind people and stuff like that, and very quickly discovered the W3C, which I had did not know existed back then. And this this, this group that had created accessibility guidelines, so that drew my attention, started reading that, and it blew my mind, really. Denis Boudreau: And very quickly, I I started communicating when I was finding with my team, and that turned into a bit of a, you know, a bit of a an article. Daily article in our, in our intranet. And at some point, I decided that I would take all of those little posts that I was creating and share them on my own website. And mind you, that was again 2000, so roughly two years before blogs became a thing. And and the whole thing was in French. And to my surprise, I started getting emails from different people in France, in, in Belgium, in, in Canada, like French, French people, French speaking people, some of them in my own city in Montreal. About that work and, and started having those conversations and discovered a world that I had, I had no idea about, really. So, yeah. So absolute accident made a lot of friends through that. That's actually how I a couple years later, it's actually how I first heard about you. You were talking about that lawsuit in In 2010. The company that I was running back then with the three, three partners we actually leaned on that work that you had done back then as a way to try and convince the government that they needed to get their act together. So it's always been part of of what I've been doing for as long as I can remember. Denis Boudreau: So that's how it really started. Like it started with this, this absolute, you know, unexpected turn at some point. And it gave, it gave my work meaning at that point. 2000 I'd been like I said, I'd been doing that for about three years. The novelty of creating a new website for a big company at pretty much worn off by then. And I was a little bored with technology. I was a little older than most people on my team, so I guess a bit more serious. And I was finding that the you know, the web agency world was very superficial and shallow. I was thinking of doing other things like, and some of the things that I was thinking, I was thinking about was like you know, underwater welding, like very, very difficult. And in that world and when accessibility came around, it opened this new path or this it gave purpose. And I just jumped in with both feet into that and never looked back. So that's really how it began. And then and then over the years, accessibility became more and more viable as a, as a practice because, as you well know in early 2000, very few people actually knew or even cared about the topic. The space had not been done and people did not really understand. Denis Boudreau: And Aoda was not even something that people were talking about yet, because that was only 2005. So it took a while before people started to catch up to the idea that that was actually something that needed to be done. So, so over the years, it became a bigger part of what I was doing until it became all I was doing around 2005 or 6 when I started working with the Quebec Quebec government building there for the first iteration of their own government standard. That led me to work with W3C. That led me to work with ISO for a while, and standardization became a big part of what I do as a result of all of that. And over the years, yeah, my business just kept evolving from working primarily with designers and developers to working more and more with their leaders. And now these days, it's definitely more about that. It's it's inclusive leadership and communication so that you can lead a team or you can you can you can present to an audience, for instance, and make sure you're not leaving anybody behind. And that's the core of my business today. But in a nutshell, that's roughly what my trajectory has been. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you practically stumbled into this you know. Right. Denis Boudreau: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Unexpected. But again, the best. The best thing that could have happened to me. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So for listeners who may mean who may be new to the term, how do you define quotation inclusive communication and what problems does inclusive solve for organizations that think of accessibility as only as a technical challenge or a technical checklist? Denis Boudreau: Yeah. So inclusive communication is a rather popular term these days. A lot of things for different people with, with all the diversity, equity and inclusion efforts, dei efforts that have been happening over the years it like the practice grew and grew. So I am very purposefully focused on disability inclusion, neurodiversity visible or invisible disabilities. But that's really my focus. So to me, inclusive communication means the act of of being in touch with your audiences, with whatever they may be in a way that addresses the challenges that are typically faced by people with disabilities. So as an example I wrote a book a couple years ago called Inclusive Speaker. The book was dedicated to communication specialist experts, speakers, keynoters, you know, trainers, HR people, anyone who speaks in front of a group or speaks to a group or manages a group to help them understand all the all the, the, the gaps that they have in their communication. When you know, they assume that people can see, they assume that people can hear, they assume that people can differentiate colors or this and that. And how do you leave people behind all the time? So to me, that is a foundational aspect of what includes inclusive communication is in the context of the workplace. When I work with leaders, it also means helping them understand how they can revisit the way that they use language to bring people together instead of othering some of their team members, for instance. So that's roughly where I that's my that's my, my sandbox, if you will, those different areas. That means helping teams rethink how they write, how they speak, how they design for actual people, and not just personas or, or theoretical, you know, audience members and I help them build inclusive habits across, you know, different content platforms, things like that. A lot of it is about clarity and plain language, but it's always about accessibility at the end of the day. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you have said that 2020 to 45% of people can be excluded by the way we design and communicate, communicate online from people with disabilities to older adults and folks in limiting environment environments. Can you unpack that number and talk about the hidden audiences companies are missing? Denis Boudreau: Sure. So so as you probably know Statistics Canada came up with data a couple years ago about how many Canadians were self-identifying as having a disability, one or more disabilities. That number was roughly 27%, 28%. So that's where we start, right? Like more than one out of every five person self-identifies with a disability as having a disability. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Denis Boudreau: Not exclude. Include all the people who actually have no idea that they have a disability. Yes. And and will probably never even find out. So it's already one out of five. One out of four even. I you you could easily say most of those are invisible. So that's where we start. And the statistics that are shared by Statistics Canada when you, when you flatten that out to the active population, so 16 to 64, that's roughly 20%. So we're really at one out of five out of. Yeah. So 20% let's say we start with 20%. And then of course, you know, our seniors as of as of my last, the last time I checked was July 1st, 2024. So that data gets updated on July 1st every year. I haven't checked it this year yet, but last year it was roughly 19% of the population that was over the age of 65. So a distinct group, then the active population who lives with a disability, one or more disabilities. So you can easily combine the two and say, hey, those folks are not in the same demographic. And obviously anyone who's over the age of 65 experiences some type of deterioration in their senses compared to when they were younger, so they're not necessarily disabled. Some of them are. Some of them would never consider themselves to be but some of them actually do develop over time. You know, challenges that are, that are significant enough that they actually cause barriers for them. Denis Boudreau: I mean, if I just speak for myself, I'm 54 and for the last nine years or so, I really need glasses. And from when, you know, one year to the next, every other year, I probably have to update my prescription because the glasses aren't that great anymore. And like, I'm slowly losing some of my my my sight, My hearing also is slowly deteriorating. My ability to sustain a cognitive effort for a long, long period of time is definitely also impacted. It used to be that when my kids would go to bed at night, I would push for another 2 or 3 hours of work regularly, still wake up around seven in the morning, and then go and do that again for another day. I can't do that anymore. So and like I said, I'm only 54, right? So my ability to do these things or to perceive the world around me has changed over the years. So obviously as I get older, this is not going to get any better. So there's that. And even if someone doesn't perceive themselves as having a disability, aging definitely affects our ability to see, hear, think, move, all of that. So it's somewhere in there is part of our demographic of people who benefit from accessibility one way or another. On top of that, because aging is a spectrum. And you know, skills and senses are also a spectrum on a spectrum. We have in Canada, about 18% of the population between the age of 50 and 69. Denis Boudreau: So those are mixed with the other two groups. But those are people who may or may not have a disability but are in that age group where definitely aging is starting to have an impact on their ability to do things. So when you play with these numbers and when you account for the fact that when you look at the data from Statistics Canada, for instance, where they say that roughly 5% of Canadians have a visual impairment or disability what they really think of or talk about are people who are blind, people who have low vision, people who need screen magnification, people who might have some kind of an eye disease or deterioration, like, say, macular degeneration or glaucoma or amblyopia or some or this or that, but it does not include the 10% of men and one woman out of every 200 was colorblind, which is also happens to be my case when you when you add color blindness to the realm of of challenges with visual impairments. It definitely is more than 5% when you add to people who actually are deaf or hard of hearing, those who just have a declining hearing, then that's also more than, you know, 5%, 6%, I think is what the data shows. So it's more than that. But more importantly, when you look at issues related to or challenges related to cognitive disabilities and or neurodiversity and, or you know anxiety as an example, it's way more than the ten, 12, 13 ish percent that they're talking about. Denis Boudreau: When you look at dyslexia as an example, most American university estimate that it's roughly 17% of the population. So just that particular Situation in neurodiversity is way more than all of the cognitive group that Statistics Canada actually talks about. That does not include anything about mental health. It doesn't include anything about anxiety. It doesn't include anything about pretty much anything. So saying or thinking that by combining the 20% of people who are the active population, the 20% I was talking about at the beginning, those between the ages of 16 and 64 and people over the age of 65. Two different groups. Again, we're already talking about 39% of people. And then if you add to that, all the different groups that are clearly not factored in, it's even more than that. So it's a very it's a very conservative number to say that if you're if you are trying to communicate and reach out the entire population, like the larger public, you will be talking to people of pretty much every age group, therefore 40% of them are likely to have some kind of a challenge that can be addressed, or at least mitigated in to a certain extent by paying attention to accessibility. And that's why my business exists. That's why people like me and you do what we do. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's a picture that many people are unaware of. And this is so good to to, you know, to highlight this Denis Boudreau: Yeah. For sure. I mean, it's again, out of sight, out of mind. When almost every single time when I talk to a client or I talk to someone in a training session and and they're trying to understand how broad this is, they equate you know, disability with someone who is blind, someone who's in a wheelchair someone who's deaf, maybe. But they very rarely consider the myriad of other conditions that also fall under that big umbrella. And and therefore they don't think about it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you helped to co-author Quebec's first mandatory web accessibility standards for government. And you have contributed to W3C education and outreach. What are the top lessons from standards work that help leaders move from compliance on paper to inclusion in practice? Denis Boudreau: I think the biggest lesson that I can teach my clients in that sense, or and that hopefully they understand, is that compliance does not equate inclusion. Compliance is just the starting point. It's the starting line for for for for inclusion. It's the yeah, it's the starting point basically. And Complaints without actual you know, organizational change, culture change just doesn't stick to begin with. The the real world, the real work is really aligning the intent of the organization, the roles, and having accountability also built into it. So that's that's the biggest lesson I think that that people will have, because yes, you like your leaders in your typical organization, will eventually want to invest in inclusion because they see the value. They understand the business case. And, you know, whether we like it or not, most organizations, though, they will tell you that they do this because they're great social, corporate, social citizens. They primarily do it because they see that there's financial incentives to do so. So this is where we start for the most part. The biggest difference, I think, between an advocate who works with people you know, in the weeds, trying to make things work like you will appeal to people's good nature and wanting to make a difference. But when you're talking to those who look at spreadsheets and look at quarterly results, you know it doesn't work as well. So it has to be. It has. You have to bring in the conversation around like, what's in it for us in terms of an organization, in terms of business. Denis Boudreau: And of course, some of it is financial, some of it is reputational, some of it is just avoiding legal challenges, like all these different things. So I would say that leaders understand that accessibility must be embedded into their goals and not just part of a checklist, as you were saying, are those who typically succeed more, who are more likely to make progress in any kind of significant way. And also when everybody owns a piece of that outcome. Right. So that accountability piece is incredibly important because again, I mean, I very rarely met people who flat out would tell me, I don't care about accessibility. I don't care about people that are disabled. I only care about money. I mean, a lot of people think that, don't get me wrong. But those would actually say it very few it couple times with very few. So everyone is for virtue, right? They all want to do the right thing as long as it's not too complicated, as long as it doesn't impact them too much, and as long as it doesn't cost them too much. So finding that that like threading that line and making sure that we can, we can get them to a point where they actually see the value is is probably the most important aspect with regards to that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you hold the I a p c a credential, and you have trained tens of thousands of people worldwide. Why should organizations care about certification and structured training and how do you approach capability building so that it sticks after the workshop is over? Denis Boudreau: Well, I would say that certification primarily initially builds internal credibility. It it establishes a common language, a common set of expectations, so to speak. When your people are certified, they have met a certain body of knowledge. So there is an understanding in terms of what we're talking about. Like we've defined the matter in a way that is collectively agreed upon. That is probably the most interesting, interesting aspect or benefit of certification. Individually speaking. Yeah, it's a couple of acronyms to your name. It's nice. But that doesn't bring you very far. What it does, however, is when you have and especially in the field, like accessibility where people are so passionate and and emotionally involved in the topic, most people tend to over interpret rules all the time. So when we think about the W3C rules around accessibility, for instance, people think that, you know, all these things need to be done. But when you really analyze what it is that is being asked in the wcaG guidelines the bar is actually very low in a lot of cases. We as practitioners have amplified what is expected because we interpret or overinterpret what is what is being required. So again, when you work with clients who are like, I just don't want to get sued, tell me what I need to do and don't bother me. With best practices, you have no choice but to go and really analyze. Okay, so where do we really draw the line in terms of what this particular rule dictates and what is just aspirational? So when you have certification and everyone agrees on the same ballpark, so to speak, then you minimize the risk of people having very different interpretations, which becomes really important if you let's say you are an agency and you have a bunch of people internally that are accessibility specialists, and you work with your clients and your specialists or your experts are advising these different clients about accessibility, you can't afford to have a bunch of people saying different things or contradicting each other. Denis Boudreau: And internally, same thing. If you're in an organization, let's say you're a bank and you have you have a commitment to accessibility, which you should because Accessible Canada Act and everything. If you are working as an accessibility Team for your organization, and you have different people coming to you, and different members of the team say different things. Again, you will. It's a surefire way to lose your credibility as a team. Like you want consistency. You want coherence. Certification technically will give you that. So that that is certainly an important aspect of it. And then when it comes to training, when you base it on these agreed upon guidelines and what they mean, what you do is that you allow people to break down very complex ideas, and then you present that into into practical, repeatable actions that they can put into place, whether it's about images or about keyboard access or this or that. So yeah. So combining the reality or the, the vision, let's say the clarity that certification provides with a training approach that leans on that, what you what wear, it allows you to do basically is progressively scaffold a skill set within the organization. And that's something that I've discovered many years ago, and that I've seen work very successfully with clients, is that when you try to teach everyone about everything all at once, everything comes one ear and out the other. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes. Denis Boudreau: And when you when you accept that, yes, the goal is to be compliant. The goal is to meet Aoda. You know, four years ago for for level Double-A, actually almost five years ago now. So we're so behind. We need to get everything done today. You're never going to get anywhere. But if you agree and if you accept rather that it's going to take time and you need to build that skill set and you choose, you choose to work with a smaller subset, but do it really well and then scaffold onto that progressively. Your team will will learn and embed and integrate these concepts at a much more reasonable rate or pace. And then the likelihood of them actually being able to change how accessibility is being handled or addressed internally will make a difference. And then you can you can start actually enjoying and appreciating and witnessing different wins that get you closer and closer to that goal. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's like one step at a time, right? Denis Boudreau: Absolutely. Like baby steps you know, progress over perfection. Rome wasn't built in a day, like all these different things, right? So. So all of these these metaphors are great, but, yeah, if anyone who wants to do everything all at once will just get overwhelmed and and sort of buried under everything that needs to be done, and those who actually accept, take their time and do it well and do it progressively will always come out on top at the end with better results. Even more time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Go ahead, go ahead. Denis Boudreau: I was, I said, even if it means more time. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, that's that's the thing. You know, like some people say, oh, it's going to take too long. Give me the whole shebang all at once. But one step at a time. I think it does a much better job. Right? Denis Boudreau: Yeah, exactly. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well. Denis Boudreau: You have to learn to crawl before you can walk. Before you can run. That's basically it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tell that to the toddler. Is he. So tiny. Paint us a picture of a typical inclusive engagement. If a leadership team team brings you in. What does an audit or training arc look like from discovery to measurable results? Denis Boudreau: Yeah, well, it does begin with that discovery. It begins with interviews. It begins with the assessments. It begins with figuring out where these leaders are today where they think they want to be and where they and identifying their biggest gaps. Oftentimes it's gaps that you don't even know exist, right? So these days, my typical assignment is very different than what it was five years ago or 20 years ago, obviously. But these days it's really about working with these these these leaders, these executives and helping them understand what those gaps are and helping them see what they don't yet see but have a feeling is hurting them. You know, another stat that we can talk about that is very commonly shared is that roughly 20% of the workforce is neurodivergent or has an invisible disability. So if you have 1000 employees, it's not unreasonable that anywhere between 150 and 200 of them would fit that profile. If you have no idea that you have those folks on your team, and you don't adapt any of your processes to maybe meet the needs or the expectations of someone who is dyslexic as ADHD is colorblind. Is on the autistic spectrum. Autism spectrum. You will expect everyone to follow one way of working, and we all know that one size fits all solutions don't work. So once your leaders start to realize that that is probably happening in their businesses as well, even though when they ask the question, nobody raises their hand, because why would anyone ask themselves? So to keep that for themselves until they feel very, very comfortable and very safe in that environment, the leaders need to be the ones doing the making. Denis Boudreau: The first the first gestures toward towards inclusion. So I helped them see that we do an assessment together, and that assessment allows me to place them on a maturity model. So it's a scale going from 0 to 5. And basically every step is like leveling up towards inclusion. So we do that on the topic of disability inclusion first and then that will place them somewhere in that maturity scale. That maturity scale has been already been defined to say, well, if you're at this level, you should be doing the following at the moment. Are you doing those things or not? If they are already doing that, then we can start building what comes next. If they still have gaps compared to where they should be based on that scale, then we'll work at bridging those gaps, like filling those gaps first, and then we'll look at all the things that could also that should also be integrated from previous stages that maybe they're not doing, like we're backfilling all these things so that they can build again, scaffold that, and build that foundation to be able to build a, a stronger, more robust building, so to speak, for accessibility. So so the the the engagement is in a part is helping them identify where they are based. Denis Boudreau: Based on that. And then build a roadmap of where we could go next and let them see where they could go to see if they actually want to go that far. So help them see where we could go next based on their based on their priorities. Then we can explore 15 other areas of leadership that is relevant to, that are relevant to to disability inclusion. And those are things like communication legislation, etiquette stigma and bias, emergency preparedness digital accessibility, you know, the workplace, like there's about 15 of those that I typically will work with. And so we'll choose any one of those those lanes, if you will. And again, we'll just work towards coaching them further down that path. So that turns into coaching sessions. It turns into training sessions. It turns into presentations. It's about it's about sharing that knowledge and helping them integrate these concepts into what they do so that when they speak with their teams, their language changes, their demeanor changes, their behavior changes. And by doing so and demonstrating that they are serious about wanting to create a more inclusive workplace, then their employees are going to start trusting that maybe they could out themselves and disclose some disclose something about themselves. And all of a sudden people start, you know, presenting themselves as being in that statistic that was so low to begin with. And what we know again is that and this is something that came out of the Return on disability group in Toronto a couple years ago. Denis Boudreau: Richard Donovan was the one who led that that research. And it was something along the lines of I think it was something like 90% of of Of organizations who have a Dei policy toward diversity, equity, and inclusion policy do not include disability as part of their protected characteristics. So organizations are big on on Dei. Well, maybe not as much as they used to, because the political climate in this last year has been quite awful for that purpose. But but a lot of organizations are still pushing for Dei, but they'll do that in other equally important aspects such as, you know, gender expression, race, religion, sexuality, gender, like all these different things. But disability is rarely in that conversation. Yet disability is one of those areas that is completely, completely transversal to everything else. And yet it's not there because, again, most disabilities are invisible. So people don't think about that. So that's that's what I do. That's what I inclusive communication does is helping these leaders see those things bring a light to that in reality, so that they can have a more informed, more more, more conscious perspective on their workforce and their workplace so that that workplace can fully contribute to the full extent of their potential, regardless of what that potential is or whatever the limitations might be or challenges might be. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But do you think it's because that they are unaware of disability? Or maybe it's disability is just a last minute reminder? Like why do you think disability is not included to start with? Denis Boudreau: I don't think that the vast majority of people mean well, they're just busy, and it's not something that they think about because it's not part of their reality. And yet most of us know at least a person or two who fits that profile. Most of those people they just don't realize relates to disability. So I, I think it's really just a question of being uninformed. It's a question of not having been able to connect the dots as to what that means for your business. It's a it's a question of not having understood that diversity is a fantastic vector for inclusion and, you know, innovation and creativity. When you have a group of people that all look, think and sound the same, you can't expect them to have diverse opinions or perspectives on anything. They will all have very similar ways of seeing the world, because they all belong in the same kind of world. And if you're a business, for instance, and you're selling a product and you'd like to reach as many people as possible with to buy that product, and your perspective is the perspective of a cisgendered white male, you can't expect, expect that you're going to very naturally appeal to everyone out there who is not like you. But if you have a team of people that come from different perspectives, different groups, different beliefs, different bunch of different things, then the likelihood of that team being able to spot when something is probably not appropriate for this group or that group means that you're less likely to make those mistakes. Denis Boudreau: It means that you're more likely to think about different ways to present your ideas that will appeal to a larger group, because you have different representations in that group as well. So just that should be should be significant enough for for a leader to say, hey, you know what? Yeah. I mean, I don't want to sell my shoes just to, you know, white males in their 50s. I'd like to sell my shoes to anyone who actually has feet. So let's let's work with a broader perspective because of that. Or in order to, to to to meet that goal. And that's what it does. That's what that's what inclusion does. That's what diversity does. So when leaders understand that they're already more open to the idea. And then when you start adding other aspects to this, like, you know, it would really be bad for your reputation if all of a sudden people realize that you're so, you know, oblivious to different realities or different groups or this or that, then all the risks that come with not paying attention also add to the necessity of paying attention to these situations. And like most other things, once you start pulling on that thread, you realize that, oh wait, there's a lot more in there than I ever thought about, and it becomes something that all of a sudden you make space for, you make room for. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Without naming names, if you can't share a case study where inclusive communication led to a concrete, you know, win, maybe higher conversions, Pure support calls or reduced legal risk. What changed and how did you measure all of this? Denis Boudreau: Well, it's a little bit of everything that I've said so far, right? I mean, I've worked with a couple of banks as an example. We're talking about banks earlier. So banks the recent years and you know, banks are very traditional beasts, right? I mean, they do things in a certain way. It's a tried and true approach, and things tend to be very traditional. And when it comes to accessibility, being traditional is saying, hey, there's a deadline. We need to do this, figure it out. And then every year they realize that they haven't really done any progress. And yeah, they made some progress here. But then they broke that other thing over there or the website that they had worked on as now being, you know, redesigned. And the new version is worse than the previous one and it's always back to zero. So I've had many experiences where I've come in and I've spoken with these leaders and helped them understand that the reason why they're not making any tangible progress is because everyone has a checklist as an example, and they're doing these things, but they don't really understand what they're doing. They just know that they need to put alt text on an image, for instance. So they don't really pay attention to it. Nobody feels like it's part of their job. So they're just being asked to do that every now and then. So there's a spot check for this, but nobody really plans for it ahead of time. So being able to bring the concept of, you know, accessibility from the very early stages of conception and ideation in a project means that you're going to pay attention to it as you go through every step of that project or life cycle. Denis Boudreau: So, I mean, I've, I've seen many, many instances where accessibility was considered from the very beginning, and as a result of that, the resulting product or the outcome for that particular project was much more accessible than it would have been otherwise. Again, it's the old metaphor of, you know, a blueberry muffin or a chocolate chip cookie that everybody talks about, right? I mean, you can you can put together a, like, dough for a cookie dough and bake it and then sprinkle a bunch of chocolate chips on top of it at the end. It's not going to be the same feeling as if those chocolate chips are actually baked into the cookie in the oven. Like sprinkle, sprinkle that on top of it or within are different things. Accessibility is the exact same way. You if you really think about accessibility from the very beginning, every decision you will make will be instructed in part by accessibility. And if you have if you have your, your, your checkpoints regularly to make sure that we have not dropped the ball on those things, inevitably it will become more accessible. Inevitably, people will be assigned with responsibilities at their level in their roles, and if those responsibilities are actually coherent with one another, then you will start to see people actually speaking to each other and communicating ideas or expectations about accessibility. As an example, if you're a designer and you've heard about accessibility and colour contrast, and you know that you need to pay attention to which colours you use together because people like me might have a hard time reading the content. Denis Boudreau: Otherwise, if you've made that decision and you've put together a colour palette at the beginning of for the project, that looks a certain way, then you want to make sure that when content creators come in and they start writing content, that they don't use combinations that would be bad for accessibility. You'll say, yeah, you know, I know that you like that grey text on a white background. Probably not a good idea. Go for medium medium grey text instead. It's going to be easier to read. Or if a developer comes in and wants to use different portions of or assets of the of of the website to build a new page, you will want to convey to them that they need to pay attention to this or that. So when people start talking with each other and they communicate about accessibility, then they also expand their own understanding of what that means and they understand why they do it. So all those things are very tangible ways or examples of ways in which success is translated into into the project at the end, because they are suddenly paying attention to it, which otherwise is never the case. I mean, if I go back ten, 15 years, pretty much every project that I would work on, I would be called in at the very end of the project and they would say, hey, we're launching our site in two weeks. We thought it would be great if you could take a look for accessibility and tell us if we did well or not, and what they're hoping is that you're going to tell them everything is perfect. Denis Boudreau: And as you start saying that it's not, then they say, oh, well, too bad, we'll do we'll try to do better next time. And that was basically my practice for about ten years. I don't have that anymore. Like, it's been a long time since I've had anyone come to me and said, we just need a like a spot check at the end. People have understood over the years, probably because they, you know, they've hit that wall so many times before where they, they didn't meet those goals or they had to to recognize that they had completely missed the ball on that, that they that they planned for it earlier on in their process. And that's a again, that's a good indication of success when it comes to accessibility. I don't tend to measure measure success by whether or not a website is truly accessible, because I've yet to see one that is perfectly accessible. There's always something that doesn't work or something that gets broken while you try to fix something else. But the closer you get to that goal, the more people will be able to use it without dealing with any kind of barriers or challenges that could otherwise be avoided. And that, to me, is the real measure of success that the biggest, the biggest boulders are out of the way. And, you know, you have to walk around a couple of pebbles, but those are manageable. It's fine. And so yeah, I would say that that's one of the ways in which I've seen it measured. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now here's a personal question for me. It's not one of our interview questions. I'm just wondering, does it depend on the type of company as to how they view disability slash accessibility? Like, for example, do you think an airline company views it differently from a bank? Denis Boudreau: Not really. They're both they're both from the, you know, private sector. They both have goals that are first and foremost about profitability and making money. So they're pretty much the same. There is a difference between, say, a government organization and, say, a bank or an airline company for sure. When the goal is first and foremost to serve the population, serve your, your community you're more likely to find people who want to do the right thing naturally, because and oftentimes those are people who are also close to the practice of UX, like user experience. And they want to make sure that, you know, if they're going to be to be building something, they would rather that everyone can use it. That's how they're thinking about it, as opposed to someone who is in the private sector will say, well, it's already costing us so much. We want to make as much profit as possible. Let's not make it overly complicated by including those people and by those people. They think about, you know, the blind people and the that guy in the wheelchair in the corner over there, that's that's what they're thinking about, because they don't realize that it's actually a lot more people than that. And most of those, those disabilities are invisible. But once they start seeing that and they start seeing, like I was saying earlier, the potential risk in terms of lost revenue, in terms of all the people that may never even get to their website because for some reason it doesn't work for them. Denis Boudreau: They're starting to see the potential losses in sales, and now they're starting to pay attention because of that. And if you can convince them that the cost of making things more accessible is lower than the, the, the, the lost revenue that will come from not doing that, then they pay attention. And when they realize that if they actually integrate that practice into their DNA, into the organization, into their processes, so that it's not going to be reinventing the wheel all the time, but that they can start having practices that are built on accessibility, and people just do it that way instead of doing it another way. Then they also understand that there's going to be a learning curve. But as they get better and better, as they get more mature, it's going to cost them less and less to do it. And while it costs them less, it expands the how much of their audience they can they can reach with that particular product or service. So that's how you win them over. But yeah, I mean, it depends on the type of organization I public versus private. Definitely. Yeah. And then, you know, organizations that are focused on people are more likely, obviously, to pay attention to accessibility. And organizations that are fixed on numbers are less likely to do it. I would say as a generalization. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now the clock is telling me that we don't have that much time, but I'm very, very interested to know what are your thoughts for the future? Where do you see the landscape of disability slash accessibility going? And, you know, for the younger generation, what advice would you give to them? Denis Boudreau: So of course we can't talk about the future without talking about AI. So we're going to start. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes. Denis Boudreau: Most of us have played with tools like ChatGPT or Cloud or Gemini or Perplexity or whatnot over the last three years. Anyone who has some level of depth of expertise in a particular field and as I tried these tools, I've found them to be great in a lot of cases, but unreliable in other cases. So to answer your question, I would say that for anyone who wants to get into this field, of course AI is going to be a huge way or factor into you learning the skill set and developing the expertise, but you have to also be able to learn it in more traditional ways by talking to people who have done it before, by by being in touch with people with disabilities and learning from their experience, their experiences, their their needs, their their frustrations, their expectations and all that. Because AI alone won't give you that, that perspective or the the broadness of the perspective. I do believe that with every passing year, the digital space becomes more accessible very slowly, painfully, slowly, but still a little bit better. And I do believe also that we're we're not quite there yet. But AI will also have a really significant impact on the tools that allow people to build, design, create more accessible products using those technologies. So that's all very positive. But we will, before that, get through a period that we're already into by, as a matter of fact, with different vendors selling or promising different tools that are supposed to fix everything and yet won't do that. Denis Boudreau: I mean, one of the one of the conversations we could get into if we had more time, I guess, would be all these accessibility overlays, companies that that are that promise you that with this single line of JavaScript, you're going to get your entire site compliant, which is absolute, absolutely false. And we have, you know, hundreds of of testimonials of people with disabilities saying that the use of those tools that actually makes things harder for them. And we have, you know, at this point, hundreds of companies that have been sued because despite having used those tools, they're still not accessible and they're still very far from that goal of compliance. So we have all these companies that are basically selling you whatever you want to hear. And so, so, you know, that's that's a big problem that we have today that will get better though. I mean, it's a necessary evil. I feel in the sense that for not all of them, because some of those companies are just there to make a quick buck and, you know, they won't be there five years from now. But some of those companies that actually mean to do well and are really trying will eventually get to a point where their tools are going to be more helpful than, than harmful, and that's going to help as well. So when you combine AI to improve on the tools that end users are using screen readers or whatnot that they're using, and you add to that other AIS that help developers and designers create more accessible products, as long as all of these different tools, speak a common language and agree on different things. Denis Boudreau: It will create more inclusive content out of the box and all of that will help us. So I think that the future is bright in that sense. I don't expect to see much of that before I retire. So the next ten years or so, I think we'll get it'll get better, but we're not going to get anywhere near perfect before then. But I am, but I tend I also tend to be an optimistic by nature. Right. So I choose to see the world that way. Otherwise it would be way too depressing. But but the potential is there. Let's put it this way. So yeah, I think it's I think it's a good thing. But when you look at when you look at tools, like if you were new to accessibility and you took anything that AI gives you at face value, you would be giving very you know, ill advised recommendations to your clients. So you can't just trust that you have to also reach out to your community, find the community that where people actually know what they're talking about, and compare what the tools tell you with those people, so that we can all educate those tools so that they eventually are better and better at giving us actual truth and facts, and not just made up nonsense. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Danny, I'd like to thank you for having been on my podcast. I think this has been a good educational interview, you know, for me included. I've learned a lot today. I want to thank you for that. And if at any time you would like to come back and, you know, share more perspectives with us, please do not hesitate to reach out. Denis Boudreau: Awesome. Well, it was great being here. I'm happy you invited me. Thank you. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #46: Interview with Sonia Gangopadhyay, Director, Centre of Expertise for Accessible Transportation, Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-09-26-2025/ In this illuminating episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Sonia Gangopadhyay, who leads the Canadian Transportation Agency's Center of Expertise for Accessible Transportation, to unpack how the CTA protects the right to accessible travel across federally regulated modes, from airlines and interprovincial buses to terminals and screening/border services. Sonia traces the agency's evolution from early railway oversight to today's regulations and tribunal decisions (including One Person, One Fare and mobility-aid coverage), explaining how rules, guidance, and codes become enforceable obligations. She lifts the curtain on her team's day-to-day, running the accessibility helpline, building training resources, collaborating with ICAO/IATA, and supporting regulatory development, then details "on the ground" compliance: designated enforcement officers, inspections across modes, investigations when violations occur, and administrative monetary penalties up to $250,000, alongside a new program that shadows travelers with disabilities to observe real trips end-to-end. Donna probes enforcement, backlogs, and lived experience. Sonia clarifies that the headline-grabbing complaints backlog concerns general air-passenger issues, while accessibility complaints form a smaller, manageable queue resolved through facilitation, mediation, or, if needed, adjudication. She spotlights requirements for sensory and invisible disabilities (multi-format communication, orientation to cabin controls, and options like moving to the front of security lines), the "nothing about us without us" consultations that drive tangible changes (e.g., a working group on powered wheelchairs), and tech opportunities, from autonomous wayfinding chairs and smart boarding bridges to real-time wheelchair tracking, balanced with low-tech alternatives by design. The conversation closes on a systems view of universal design and a shared commitment to Canada's 2040 barrier-free goal, with an open invitation for practical collaboration across the travel continuum. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna Jodhan: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and a stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just the sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where a policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest and changemaker, whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Today, I'd like to welcome Sonia Gangopadhyay from the Canadian Transportation Agency. Sonia, welcome to my podcast. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Thank you, Donna, and thank you for inviting me to your podcast, A Remarkable World Commentary. It's a really a pleasure to be here today with you. Donna Jodhan: Thank you very much. So, Sonia, to set the stage for our audience. How would you describe the Canadian transportation agencies mission in your own words? And why should every day travelers, even those who seldom think about regulators, care about its work? Sonia Gangopadhyay: Well, what we do at the Canadian Transport Agency is we protect the fundamental right of people with disability to an accessible transportation system. The transportation service provider in the federal system just for your auditor so they understand who they are. They include, like companies that operate planes, ferries, trains, buses that travel long distance like they need to cross provinces or go to other country to be captured by our regulation and our work. It also includes terminals like airport ferry terminals, train station, bus station and also some of the services provided by Catsa and CBSA, which are the control point and security and border crossing when it comes to providing access to those services to ensure that they're accessible as well. The reason why the work of the agency is important is because it develops and applies where. Well, we're developing and applying rules that establish the right of the user and also the responsibility of the transportation service provider. So this rule can be regulations, guidance, material that support the rule, try to explain them. Because regulation can be dry a little bit sometimes in the sense that it's legislative it's law. May not be easy to read for everybody, so the guidance kind of helped them to understand them. And also we have code of practice, and the agency is also a tribunal. We hear and resolve complaints like a real court. And why does it matter now with two travelers is because it helped to make sure that the national transportation system runs efficiently and smoothly for the benefits of all Canadians. And it protects the human rights of persons with disability to an accessible transportation network. Donna Jodhan: Now, many listeners know the CTA chiefly for its airline passenger rooms, but the agency's roots go all the way back to early railway forts. Could you walk us through that historical journey and highlight the values that remained constants despite more than a century of change? Sonia Gangopadhyay: Yes. Of course. The agency became, as the Board of Railway Commissioners in 1902, 1904, so way before my time. And that I joined the agency. Donna Jodhan: Yeah. Sonia Gangopadhyay: So the authority was over inland waterways and airlines, along with jurisdiction over the railway. And that was given by the Transportation Act in 1938. However, the responsibilities and authorities over the federal transportation, as you mentioned, have evolved over the last centuries. And I can provide a few examples. Example, the agency previously you know, really on dispute resolution and some regulation to advance accessibility. And some of those decisions are very well known such as the one regarding the retrofit of via via via rail cars which was in 2000 three. There was also the decision on one person, one fare. And for your editor, one person, one fare is one a person requires an additional seat to do their disability, either for an attendant because they have also a service dog that is is big and requires more space or you, as I said, to their disability, they will require also more space. And that decision was made in 2008. And there is newer decision as well that have been made that are important, such as the emotional support dog and the coverage of mobility aid, which are more recent. From 1987, there was four regulation since then that have came into force. The first one was the part seven of the Air Transportation Regulation. The second 1 in 94 was the personal training for the assistance of person with disability regulation. And now, more recently, 2020, the Accessible Transportation for persons with Disability Regulations, which often people named the Apdr as an acronym. And the last one was in 2021, the Accessible Transportation Planning and Reporting Regulation. What is constant in the commitment to an accessible transportation system since, you know, almost a century ago, is that we always worked and we continue and we'll keep working to meet, to meet the need of a person with disability by identifying and removing barriers, either through our regulations, our resource that, you know, everybody can find on our website, and also the complaint that we receive and that we can go through mediation or adjudication to to resolve. Donna Jodhan: Quite a lot, isn't it? Sonia Gangopadhyay: It's a lot. Donna Jodhan: Indeed a lot. Now you direct the CTA's Center of Expertise for Accessible Transportation. What does that center actually look like in practice and who's on the team? How do you decide priorities and what does a typical week entail for you. Sonia Gangopadhyay: It's a it's a big question. So I'll go step by step. My team is made up of managers analysts, senior analysts and administrative staff. Overall it's a small team about 1010 people. And the work of the center of expertise is is varies a lot. So it includes and I'll start with the routine work. So we provide information to industry persons with disability. We provide expertise to other agency staff such as the people who are involved in the compliance and enforcement or that will be dealing with the dispute resolution which are the people who receive the complaint. We also manage the accessibility helpline when people are planning a trip, if they require your information about our regulation, about their right, or it could be also the industry that ask question about our regulation and how to implement. They can also contact the health plan. So that's something that we're managing. Or it could be also not also for the planning of the trip. It could be also if the trip has happened and then there has been a bar here. And then they find the person requires some information or is not sure to submit a complaint, and they want to talk with us. They can also reach out to the helpline we manage also the agency accessibility for all training which is a videos training videos. Sonia Gangopadhyay: And this is all found on our website. And industry can use those video as part of their training. The video does not replace the regulation, though. It's it offers a very strong and good base, a good foundation. But with the regulation, they have to go above and beyond in addition to our regular day to day work. The staff has is involved in various committees that are advancing work on accessibility and transportation. For example, we're often involved in committee international committees, such as the ICAO for auditor. The ICAO refer to the International Civil Aviation Organization, which is a specialized agency of the United Nations, and they coordinate like principles and techniques of international air navigation and foster all the planning and development of international air transportation related to safety and other key key objectives. There is also that we're collaborating with, that, which is an international air transportation association. They represent 350 airline, which is over 80% of the global air traffic. We're also managing the Accessibility Advisory Committee, which is composed of more than 20 representative of the industry and also more than 20 representative of organization representing people with disability. We develop regulation, we publish our guidance. We work on so on various projects and working group that address issues such as how to safely secure mobility and transportation, how to improve industry training and other projects. Sonia Gangopadhyay: We also answer questions from the industry on the regulation, as I mentioned, and person with disability regarding their right, The recourse mechanism, in case the experience of our year in the accessible transportation system, for example we receive complaint when a person faces a barrier during their travel if they haven't been able to fix it with the transportation service provider then they will come to us in those situation and they will be able to submit a complaint. If the barrier was found, then the tribunal, which is separate than my my, my team can make a decision and order the removal of the barrier. When it comes to the regulatory development, the agency has the authority to develop the regulations following a very rigorous process by the government. We do consultation, we do the, the, the cost benefit analysis. And we support the development of the regulation. However, it is the governor and Council which we refer as the GIC on the recommendation of the Minister of Transport that make those regulations. And then it becomes public through Canada Gazette. So in other words, and to try to sum up a little bit what my team does, we're supporting the mandate of the agency to ensure that the transportation system in Canada is accessible. Donna Jodhan: Wow. That's a lot for one week, every week and a different types of Sonia Gangopadhyay: It's more than just on the week. I went a little bit above and beyond. Donna Jodhan: Oh my goodness. Now, back in 2019, the CTA rolled out multiple voluntary codes into the legally binding accessible transportation for persons with Disabilities Regulations. Regulations. What were the biggest challenges in turning guidance into enforceable law? And how did you balance the needs of industry with the lived experience of disabled travelers? Sonia Gangopadhyay: Well, the agency did have experience with enforceable accessibility regulation prior to 2019, before the apdr it had and continues to have also other accessibility regulations. We had, as I mentioned earlier, the part seven of the Air Transportation Regulation, which is in relation to the services for traveller with disability in the air sector. And also we have the personal training for persons person with disability regulation, which was and which has been in place since the mid 1990s. So those continue to apply to the small carrier. Many of the service services and training obligations were already required under this regulation, as I mentioned. So the challenge with turning the code and the guidance into regulation relates more to the requirements regarding the physical environment, such as the inside of the aircraft, because, as you know, the aircraft are highly certified. And making physical change is not a simple process or always a feasible process. Even so, this is why many of those requirements that we find in the Apdr are forward facing, meaning that they must be done for new aircraft or when a career is making modification to an existing one. Other challenges related to putting requirements in to regulation that has been imposed on some career by the agency. Orders by the tribunal as a result of complaint addressed by the tribunal. So one example of this, as I mentioned earlier, was the one person, one fare requirement before the regulation. Sonia Gangopadhyay: This obligation only applied to Air Canada and WestJet. This is because in an order, the agency can only impose a requirement on the carrier that is the subject of the complaint. So if there is a complaint, it's the carrier that's named in the complaint that will receive the order from the tribunal. It would not go like to all the carriers. So by putting into the regulation those order, it becomes an claims, an obligation for all career that must follow the regulation so that they all have to follow the same rule, and so that the passenger know what to expect, no matter how they travel, you know, with whom they're traveling with. And regarding your last point about how we balance the need of the industry with the life experience of traveler with disability, well, bridging the operations of the industry with the life experience of traveler is not just a matter of compliance with the consultation requirement that we found in our regulation. Like, it's more than that. It's a blueprint for innovation for inclusion and long term success. The industry is very good in strong, you know, with the operational efficiency. They move people quickly, safely at low cost. They they follow all the safety and security protocol. The industry also focus on the customer satisfaction. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Like they want to serve more people more often, and accessibility opens up new markets and improve service for all users. So when we think about regulatory compliance meeting legal requirements and standards is a non-negotiable. But forward thinking goes beyond the minimum to lead the inclusive design the lived experience of person with disability. If we think about like if they were able to travel in a autonomy with dignity in the real world, usability of their experience and everything they encounter during their travel. So that live experience is important because it helps identifying the pain point that industry overlooks. Their insight will lead to smarter, more adaptable system. It is why consultation and discussion with person with disability are so important. And this is you know, a requirement also in our regulation. So in addition, the life experience can improve staff training in disability etiquette like communication. It is just important as it is like as a, the physical infrastructure, when one access point like one of the access point like to the to the travel journey felt like a broken elevator or a lift. There must be alternative. And the life experience teaches that accessibility, you know, should be a resilient there should be alternative and that co-development and continuous feedback is is an essential key to, you know, to the improvement. Donna Jodhan: I like that. I like those remarks very much. Thank you. Sonia Gangopadhyay: You're welcome. Donna Jodhan: Now a frequent worrier that I, I hear all the time from listeners is quote great. There is a regulation but what will it be. What when will it be enforced. And how does the CTA monitor compliance on the ground? And what happens when a carrier or a terminal operator falls short of accessibility? Sonia Gangopadhyay: Well, the agency has a has a compliance continuum to encourage compliance through a variety of outreach Education and promotional activities. The agency confirms compliance with the regulation by monitoring and verifying those activities. We follow up also on compliance verification and our enforcement action to confirm that the measures taken have had the desired outcome and that the compliance is being maintained. So all our regulations are currently being monitored, our inspectors are verifying compliance. So there is a compliance process already existing in the agency and that our inspector is going through. And actually there we the enforcement officer, we named them designated enforcement officer. And for sure Dios. And they do regular on site inspection for all modes of transportation. And that includes also across airport the airport across Canada. Catsa, which is responsible for the security at the border crossing, and CBSA, which is the Canadian Border Service Agency and their activities as it relates to accessible transportation network. When we believe that a potential violation has occurred, we initiate automatically an investigation which can result in an administrative monitoring penalty for accessibility related violation. They can reach up to $250,000. Oh, that's a lot. Yes. In addition, following the tabling of the performance audit by the Auditor General on Accessible Transportation that was published in March 2023, the agency has been working to address some of the recommendations and to have a direct Observation of available services to capture the experience of travelers with disability. So in response to those recommendations, the the agency has implemented a collaborative compliance pilot project to shadow person with disability during their travel to better understand their life experience, the services that's available to them, their unique needs challenge and the agency completed this pilot and has now integrated it like the live observation in their toolbox. So it's part of their program and they perform shadowing of a passenger with disability through their travel continuum. Donna Jodhan: Now the pandemic pushed complete numbers to record highs. Could you unpack the treasures and mediation model that the CTA has adopted to clear that backlog? And what lessons have you learned that might shape future dispute resolution methods? Sonia Gangopadhyay: First, I would like to clarify something about the backlog. We often see confusion between our general air travel complaint backlog and our accessibility complaints. So it's important to clarify that there are two very different streams of work with very different dynamics here. So the backlog that most people hear about currently reported at approximately like 80, 85,000 complaints, which is a lot. Lab. It relates to the areas. It relates to the air travel issues. Under the Air Passenger Protection Regulation, the Apr, which I won't talk about today but this includes basically the flight delay cancellation and other service disruption. By contrast, the accessibility complaints of far less in number. Okay, they're not comparable at all. And we wouldn't even call it backlog. It's more like queue and it's manageable. Why would you have a steady flow of accessibility related complaints? We've built strong process to address them efficiently and fairly. We're continuously refining those processes to ensure timely and to have equitable outcomes. And our model just so people can understand how it works, we we offer facilitation, In mediation and adjudication. We focus on prioritizing early resolution. So the the agency uses a mediation and adjudication model with a strong emphasis on early informal resolution, where appropriate. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Our goal is to resolve the case as efficiently as possible without compromising the fairness and impartiality. We encourage parties, all the parties, to resolve complaints collaboratively wherever possible. The first step in our intake process is to check whether the passenger has first attended to resolve the issue directly with the carrier. If not, we typically direct them back to the service provider first often so the carrier, because often the carrier will have internal review mechanism that can resolve the matter without the need of the agency intervention. So that that that's good. If it happened, you know, that's an early resolution. If that stage or that step has been taken and the issue remains unresolved, then the agency can step in and mediation is offered as a first option. It's a flexible, it's informal, an informal process where you will find a neutral mediator that will work with both parties to reach a mutually acceptable solution. If the mediation doesn't succeed we move to adjudication, a more formal tribunal style process where agency members consider written submission and render a binding decision. This two track model allows us to be responsive while upholding the principle of procedural fairness and access to justice. The lesson we've we learn with our process. Sonia Gangopadhyay: I would say one of it. It's the engagement. Early engagement between passenger and carrier can prevent many complaints altogether. Also improving guidance and clarity. We're also at the agency trying to improving our public facing guidance to help passengers understand their right and responsibility before they file a complaint. If in a and actually in the coming weeks and months we will be improving some of our guidance. And we will also include guidance with specific or certain subject to support and help. Passenger there will be difference, for example, between the service dog and emotional service dog or if there is an issue with the wheelchair services. In conclusion, for this question, like I think the takeaway for the auditor editor is really accessibility complaint first on the part of the 85,000 air travel complaint backlog. We have a small, manageable queue for accessible complaint. It's career first contact is an important first step before submitting the complaint to the agency. The more specific and detailed the complaint, the more effectively we can triage and act and also our dispute dispute resolution model, prioritize early resolution, and we're continuously trying to improve our process and guidance to serve better the Canadian. Donna Jodhan: Now, listeners might think of accessibility purely in terms of wheelchairs and ramps, but disability is diverse. How do the CTA's ETA's regulations address sensory and invisible disability, including the needs of blind and low vision passengers like me. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Well, the agency's regulations address all disabilities. For example. The training obligations include knowing about the different type of barriers that can prevent equal access and different types of assistance that might be required by people with disability. So there are requirements for the website accessibility for having multiple methods of communication multiple methods to communicate information. For example, if we think about making the information available in larger print, in braille, in electronic format as well as audio or visual format. There is also an obligation to describe the layout of the aircraft or train, ferry, bus, or if you sit in a seat and then there is some operating control so that the person will receive the information, how to operate those those controls. Let's say if the person is visually impaired then at least she received the information. The person received the information, how to operate those controls. So the regulation really address all disability in that sense. And look at always alternative to ensure that there is no barrier for other people with different type of disability. These are just examples. But many services are required to be also provided upon request to recognize that not all people will need or want the same level of service. Another example is And then there are a few people with certain conditions, such as autism, and that it makes it difficult for some of them to wait in a line, you know, for a very long time, like at the security screening screening, for example. So under our regulation, they can move at the front of the line. So the regulation really try to make the you know, to, to make it equal, to make it like, accessible. And if one way doesn't work, the other way will work. And looking at those different options. So again, the regulation has been developed to cover the travel journey of a person with disability in the transformation system, regardless of their disabilities. Donna Jodhan: You often collaborate with disability advocates, including cross country advocacy advisory committees. Committees. How do you ensure that those consultations are aren't merely symbolic, but actually actually drive policy change? Sonia Gangopadhyay: We we, we really value the input of member of a disability community and work with the principle of nothing about us without us. We feel that regular engagement with the community leads to productive discussion and outcome. When we developed the regulation, all comments received are captured and considered thoroughly. I recall also during the development of the PDR, we went through several consultation phases. And I recall that many people from the community of people with disability and the industry told us that they feel they felt heard when they met with us, and that we seem very interesting to hear and understand their perspective. It was more than just seem we were really interested in understanding their perspective and making sure we were considering everything to get a strong regulation. So this is also during this consultation that we heard that there was an issue for person traveling with their motorized wheelchair. And also when it gets to the securement you know, in the cargo hold of their motorized wheelchair and the size to fit in the door sometimes did not work well. So as a result of that, like even if that was that was provided during consultation of the regulation, we we heard it and we did consider it to the point that we launched our first international working group to have a closer look at this issue. Sonia Gangopadhyay: And this group was composed of persons with disability manufacturers, airlines. There was many others as well that I won't name, but we we feel it's important to have a forum also like our advisory committee or smaller working group where we can bring passenger and the transportation industry together. It's important for the industry to hear directly from passenger with disability about their needs, their experience. And it's valuable also for the passenger to hear about the challenges that the transportation industry faces. So we we really work hard to have those meaningful consultation and discussion with both representative of people with disability, the industry and all other representatives who plays a part, you know, to the good functioning of an accessible transportation in Canada. It is important. So it's all those consultations are must be meaningful. And we're doing we're working very hard to make them meaningful and to hear the perspective of everybody. Donna Jodhan: Many of our listeners design or test accessible technology. Where do you see the biggest opportunities for technology innovation to help carriers and terminals meet standards more effectively and efficiently? Sonia Gangopadhyay: So before I talk about the technology per se I would like to to know to your auditor that the regulations are designed so that the accessibility can be achieved without technology for the most part, and this is important when we're talking about alternatives. Sometimes alternative may be different than what we're expecting, or a big solution like it might be a small solution, but that works as well. So for example, announcement must be available audibly and visually in our regulation. So but visual announcement could be provided electronically. They could also be achieved simply, such as providing us the information on the writing board or directly to the passenger, you know. So we noticed that in some northern rural area in Canada, the internet is unreliable. As such, the non-electronic solution needs to exist, obviously. And when we ask people with disability like told us what they told us Actually, in those situations when the internet is unreliable so they won't receive messages through their phone or other means as well. You know, if at the end nothing is working. A pen and paper is acceptable. It is acceptable and it is simple. So it's just an example that I wanted to provide that the regulation has been written, that it can be achieved with different alternative, with different format. Sonia Gangopadhyay: So we do not regulate technology per se. However, we can incorporate by reference standard. And those standard sets requirements regarding technology for example the one that we have in our regulation that I can sit is the wiki extender for accessible website. So the regulation doesn't say, you know, all everything in the website, on the website that has to be done because it would be extremely long, extremely Only complicated, but there is a standard which is called wcaG. It's very well known across the world, in Europe, in North America, everywhere. And this standard has been integrated by reference into our regulations. So through our regulation, transportation service providers have to comply with that standard to make accessibility to make accessible their website. So to answer your question now, some of the technology that I find interesting and that I'm hoping to see more use as people with disability ask for them. Obviously they need, you know, they need to ask for them. It needs to have value to them to be useful. I have three that I, I would like to share with you. One is the autonomous wheelchair. But it's also could be the autonomous mobility. Sonia Gangopadhyay: So you don't necessarily need to sit in it, but sometimes it's just a guiding feature that are autonomous, and some import airports in Canada are already using them. And they allowed for the independence, the ability to travel more freely through an airport. So I found them interesting. The other one also is the smart boarding bridge. And leave that adjust automatically to different type of aircraft. So I've found those also very useful. And the real time tracking and again real time tracking, you can have that digital technology providing that. Or you could have that paper system that's as useful and work as well. And it's a real time tracking for your wheelchair when it gets into the cargo hall of the aircraft, you receive either electronically a message that your wheelchair is on board with you, or you receive a ticket that tells you your wheelchair has been put in the cargo hold in the same airplane as you. So those are a few technology. Again, as people with disability requires them and ask for them. I think we will see them coming more and more normal across the, the, the, across the board. And we will see them more and more also in Canada. Donna Jodhan: You know, I saw something very interesting yesterday. It may not directly apply to what we're talking about, but yesterday, my friend and I went to a supermarket. Right. And we are looking for a specific product. So we approached the really nice customer service rep, and we asked him, we're looking for mango puddings. Oh, he said, I don't speak English very well. Could you speak into my phone? And so we did. And you know what? It translated it for him into his native Chinese language dialect. And so he was able to answer us. I was blown away by that. I thought, wow, you know. Sonia Gangopadhyay: So that's awesome. Donna Jodhan: It is. And I think some type of technology like that may be coming your way one day soon. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Yes, yes. As the technology evolves and as I said, as people request them. I think this is when we can see different utility of those technology that can really help in accessibility and in the transportation system. So I'm looking forward to the next ten years. Everything that's going to be that's going to be quite interesting. Donna Jodhan: Yes. I see the clock is starting to tell me that I'm running out of time. But I'd like to ask you this question. Your background spans Psychoeducation occupational health policy and transportation economics. How does that interdisciplinary lens influence the way that you craft accessibility rules today? Sonia Gangopadhyay: Yes. I'm not this this is a this is a big question. So I'm not sure hundred percent of my education and experience. You know, brought me necessarily to, to to the regulation world. I love regulation, by the way, and the work that I'm doing in accessible transportation. So how all those attached to it, I'll try to go through it. To give some example, as a psycho educator actually, we pronounce it psycho educator. I try to make it in English so it sounds more meaningful. This belongs. Really in Quebec, this cycle. So basically studying this in the baccalaureate, it helped me to understand the human behavior and paying attention to the needs of people. I did also an MBA here in Ottawa, and it really helped me to develop strategic thinking, solving complex issues and collaborating with others to move specific objectives. And my transportation safety experience with Transport Canada helped me understand the benefits, but also the limits of a legislative framework and the benefits of working collaboratively to solve problems. And when it comes to occupational health and safety regulation again, that experience when I worked with the labour program and it really instilled a strong understanding of the risk mitigation and the integration of competing objectives. So I think at the end like to answer your question, that blend of psychology, business safety, regulatory development, it kind of encourages system level view. And it fits well with the accessibility principle and universal design principle. You know, to have that system level view. And accessibility is not only the business of the regulator, it's the business of everyone, and everyone has a role to play in it, in my opinion. Sonia Gangopadhyay: So this is why I love my job at the agency. We're not just writing rules. We're working collaboratively with many players on accessibility, transportation, like people with disability, ability, the industry and all the other players who may have a piece of responsibility like travel agent, people who manufacture a wheelchair, the people who drive the standards. So we're all crafting a system that respects the right of person with disability and that support and accessible transportation network, and for which everyone could benefit from. So I'm glad that all my background and experience brought me where I am today. I think it's a good fit. I think there's also other background that can bring people working in accessible transportation, and people will have that passion. And, you know, it's you have to have fun in your job. You have to wake up in the morning and looking forward to your day. So it's to me, I think my job kind of put together all those aspects that I like, and it's and working with others who have a lot of experience, a lot of life experience people who have so much knowledge on different element of the transportation system. A week ago, two weeks ago, I was in the forum and there was all kind of specialists, like engineer and people with knowledge on the human factor that they apply in the transportation system and people with live experience. It was so rich to see all that expertise and all working in that same direction to make the transportation accessible. So I'll leave it to, to this. Donna Jodhan: You know, I can tell from your voice that you are passionate and very emotional about what you do. And this is to be admired in today's world because sometimes it's difficult to become passionate and emotional. But you certainly are. And my final question to you, Sonia. What do you see for the next ten years. You said you can't wait to see what happens for the next ten years. So do you have any last thoughts for us. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Oh that's it. This this this is a big this is a big question. I don't have a crystal ball, unfortunately. I wish I did. No, I don't. I think I think what I would like, though, in the next ten years, I think it's like, I would like people to know first that the agency is really, truly committed to advancing accessibility in the transportation system. And that we are a strong contributor to Canada meeting its goal of being a barrier free by 2040. As you know, this is the big objective under the Accessible Canada Act that was adopted in 2019. So we we are a big contributor. You know, working hard toward that objective. And I'm hoping that in the next ten years, everybody who is involved in an accessible transportation system, whatever is their role, that they will keep working toward it and will reach it. So it's not in the next ten years, but we're more looking at the next 15 years at this point. And that we will reach that goal. Donna Jodhan: Sonia, I'd like to thank you for having taken the time to be on a remarkable World commentary interview, and I would like to invite you to return. If at any time you would like to share anything with us, I think our listeners would really want to hear more from you. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure to be here with you. And thank you also for hosting all those podcasts and disseminating information. I find that this is a an important piece you know, to build awareness. So thank you. Donna Jodhan: I think if someone has something to share or someone to say, it's my little contribution to the world, that I can help to do that. So thank you again. And I look forward to hearing from you again in the near future. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Excellent. Thank you. Donna Jodhan: Thank you. Sonia. Take care. Sonia Gangopadhyay: Bye bye. Donna Jodhan: Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #45: Interview with Velvet Lacasse, Elementary Education Teacher, Kawartha Pine Ridge District School | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-09-25-2025/ In this inspiring episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes social-justice elementary educator Velvet Lacasse for a conversation about how lived experience becomes curriculum. Lacasse traces a path shaped by her grandmother's courage, a deafblind father, and Toronto's queer activist community, roots that inform a pedagogy centered on belonging, "relationships as the curriculum," collaborative learning, and helping children see themselves as change-makers. The two revisit Lacasse's Grade 5 class joining Donna's 2010 Charter challenge, students wrote to the Prime Minister and learned to spot real-world barriers, illustrating how authentic advocacy builds critical thinking and voice. Lacasse shares blueprints educators can use now: The Grove Community School's joyful, arts-based "Gender Splendor" work (stories, picture books, and brave, intersectional allyship) and the "Seeds of Change" inquiry on water justice (personal "Dear Water" letters, collecting water samples, learning from water walkers like Josephine Mandamin and youth activist Autumn Peltier, solidarity at Queen's Park, and discussions of colonization and Grassy Narrows). She reflects on recognition (ETFO Anti-Bias Award, Edward Burtynsky Environmental Education prize), the anonymous student note, "stay slay, Velvet", that fueled resilience, and the move from Toronto to Peterborough, where she remains a visible ally while treating self-care as a radical act. Donna closes with gratitude and an invitation to return, urging listeners to "keep on going, never give up." TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, through touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just the sighted Ones, and in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest and changemaker, whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. I am delighted today to welcome Velvet Lucas, who I met many years ago when she and her her coworker Shannon Green decided to join our charter challenge. Campaign. Velvet, welcome to our show. Thank you so. Velvet Lacasse: Much, Donna. I am delighted and honored to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, it is my pleasure. And I want to start with this. So, velvet, to set the scene for listeners who may be meeting you for the first time, could you describe the personal journey that shaped you into what you call a social justice elementary educator? Velvet Lacasse: Yes. Thank you Donna. So my name is Velvet Lacasse. I think that my journey begins with my grandmother. Her name was Lucienne Lacasse and she grew up in Rimouski, Quebec. And I think that she, for me, will always be a role model of a woman who is brave, who is strong and who is willing to take risks to care for her family. So she left Quebec when she was pregnant with my mother, which took a lot of courage, I think at the time. In the early 50s, she moved to Toronto and gave birth to my mom and became a fierce advocate in my life for feminism and love. And and I'm I'm always grateful to her for teaching me about the power of sharing your own story. My mom was a quite a young mother. She had me when she was 18 years old. And then she gave birth to my younger sister, Jolene. We grew up in downtown Toronto, and my father was deaf, blind. And I think that growing up with a father who had a disability sort of opened up the world to me in terms of seeing the world through the lens of accessibility and inclusion and barriers. And I was always very protective very cautious. I was, because I was the older child, the one who did a lot of the communicating and sort of reading the world for my father. Velvet Lacasse: But he was very independent. He did a lot of his own advocacy for deaf, blind Canadians, and we heard a lot about his frustrations and also some of his triumphs. And then my mom and my dad split up when I was seven, and then my mom came out as a lesbian and surrounded herself with really wonderful kind community. And I think being raised in a culture that was alternative or marginalized also opened my eyes to the experiences of homophobia and discrimination, and there was a lot of silence surrounding the experience of same sex families. It wasn't discussed at schools. And that can that can create a little bit of shame or a lot of shame. And so when I grew up I was determined to break that silence. And I think that when I became an educator, I realized that I had the opportunity to to celebrate diversity and queer joy and and break that silence not only to heal my own younger self and the experiences that I may have felt, but also to affirm the identities of children and families and staff that I was encountering in schools. So I think that becoming a social justice educator sort of came naturally by growing up in relationship and community and family. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I, I am simply impressed. I, I didn't know these things about you and I'm glad to learn it. And I'm I'm really, really impressed. Thank you for sharing. Now, growing up in Toronto's queer activist community and with the deaf blind father clearly influenced your world view, right? How did those early experiences translate into the way that you now design classroom spaces and learning experiences? Velvet Lacasse: It's a wonderful question, Donna. I have been thinking a lot about about this, about how we, you know, about who we become and how we we use our earlier experiences to Yeah. To create, to create change. So I think that for me, I've been thinking a lot about that sense of belonging and how critical it is for young people to feel that they belong, to feel like they are included and to feel like their identities are celebrated with joy and pride and and that those experiences of resistance are used to to educate all of us about the kind of world we want to live in and how we might move forward together in a good way. So I think that my classrooms are designed to nurture and create that sense of belonging. There's a lot of collaborative learning. There's a lot of encouraging young people to be self-reflective, to to share their feelings, to share their ideas, to learn how to communicate and listen actively. And also to support young people to develop skills for advocacy so that they can see themselves as change makers. So I think I try to bring a lot of hope into the classroom. I also want to teach young people to be critical thinkers. But primarily I've come to believe that relationships are the curriculum. And if we can teach young people to be in relationship with each other in ways that are kind and inclusive and respectful, I think that that goes a long way to changing the world. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree with you there. And I think that, you know, like you've had so many variables in your life to help you become who you are and I really admire that. So so. Velvet Lacasse: So. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So. Thank you. Our friendship began in 2010 when your grade five students wrote to the Prime Minister about my web accessibility lawsuit. What prompted you and your colleague Shannon, to involve the class in that national conversation, and what lasting lessons did the students take away? Velvet Lacasse: Well, I met Shannon when we started working at a very special school in Toronto called the Grove Community School, and it was a brand new alternative school that had started the first of its kind in Ontario that centers, that teaches the Ontario curriculum, but centers, equity, social justice, community activism and environmental sustainability. And so we both joined that school when it was quite new because we wanted to be part of creating something that was alternative. And I think we both had a passion for transforming education so that it could be you know, just really reflective of what we believed to be true in terms of what young people and their families need because we know that schools tend to be colonial institutions. There's a lot of systemic discrimination that has taken place. There are issues of access and equity that make it challenging for all students to feel successful. And I think Shannon and I were looking for ways to to break that cycle and to create innovative curriculum that that really centered issues of accessibility and equity. And part of the Ontario curriculum at that time was especially in the primary years. There were there was science curriculum around learning about our five senses. And we were thinking about experiential opportunities where kids could experience what it's like to be without one of their senses. And we did, you know, a blind trust blindfold trust, walk in partners. We we we encourage we challenge the students to use scooter boards and, you know, travel with their family, with their partner from the third floor of the school out to the playground. Velvet Lacasse: And along the way, we wanted them to identify barriers that they encountered. And so having those experiences of being able to you know, to, to to move without without sight to to try to navigate stairs or thresholds between, you know, doors and hallways. When you, when you're, when you're on a scooter was very revealing for them, I think. And so we were sort of at the beginning of exploring senses through the experience of, of not having one of your senses and adapting and, you know, feeling, noticing how things were different and whether, like you said, you see the world through sound and through your optimism and through your hands, like what other senses were becoming more clear. And then I happen to come across an article in the Toronto Star that had your picture and information about the charter challenge, and I cut it out immediately and brought it to Shannon and thought, this is an amazing opportunity to make those real world connections to have students think about technology, which is something that, you know, it's hard for us to understand as older folks. But you know, young people are are exposed to technology at very young ages and might not have thought about issues of access or how other people might be able to interact with technology. Velvet Lacasse: So it was just this perfect opportunity. And so we started to explore your story. And I think Shannon reached out to you directly. And we started communicating. And we were able to bring you into the school, and we were able to be part of supporting supporting the campaign, which really gave students a voice and also a wonderful role model. So you became this friend who we were, you know watching and supporting and cheering on. And we were, you know, so thrilled to to learn that you were successful and to celebrate that with you. And I think that in terms of lasting lessons, I mean being able to visit with you again, I think it was ten years later on the anniversary was amazing. And then we had older students teaching younger students about the experience. But I think that we were able to teach students about the importance of activism and advocacy to help them believe that they could be change makers and really recognize the privilege that we have when we are able to access the world around us. Right. That technology is a privilege and not everyone has equal access. And so the work that you were doing was just was just amazing. And we were so so grateful that we were able to to connect with you and be a part of your journey. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think for me, I was just blown away by these kids and their innocence and how much they knew and how much intuition they had. And there is one question. I don't remember the little boy's name, but I really had to stop myself from smiling when he said, my mom says that Harper is a fool. What do you think? And I thought, oh no, no, no. Hey, I can't remember his name, but I, I just died. Velvet Lacasse: I love it, I love it. Yeah. I mean, these were very informed Velvet Lacasse: Young people, because their, their parents were very political. And I love it. I mean, I just love that they had that sense. And you're right, that that young people are innocent. And sometimes these complicated issues are really very simple, that everyone should have access to what they need. And, you know, you can, you know, we can you can get young if you can get young children to understand this. Then why can't you know politicians understand this as well? Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you founded the Grove Community Community School, Canada's first public alternative schools. Center on environmental justice and equity. What were the biggest hurdles in bringing that visionary model to life and how did you overcome them. Velvet Lacasse: Well I mean it was such it was a labor of love for sure. I think some of the challenges were high expectations of families who were really hoping for an alternative vision. And then when you're working within a system that lacks imagination and really tries to sometimes feels threatened by innovation or alternative ideas because it threatens you know, notions of yeah, I guess holding on to control you know, in terms of encouraging student voice that can be threatening to that model of education where the teacher has all of the knowledge and the student is just a passive recipient. And we really wanted to be part of, of empowering young people to find their voice and to and to develop pride and to develop skills that will allow them to speak out on issues of injustice. So some of the challenges, I think were systemic you know, an administrator who is kind of old fashioned traditional values high expectations of parents who were really impatient. Okay. I think there was a, you know, everybody wanted something different. And we were trying very hard to create a process for collaboration. I think some of the, some of the most important lessons I learned are it's important to have a shared vision and it needs to include many different voices. So stakeholders that are, you know, the, the children, the parents, the staff, the community members, the admin everyone needs to be able to contribute and feel like their voices are heard. Velvet Lacasse: But that shared vision is so critical to keeping everyone focused. And then you need a process for how how are we going to collaborate? How will we make decisions? What happens when we disagree? How can we ensure that there's a structure in place to support the work that we want to do and, and that evolved over time. But those were some very challenging conversations, but also very courageous conversations. And I learned a lot. I think one of the one of the important things that I have come to recognize about myself is that the teaching of humility and for me, that means being open to open to learning and recognizing that I'm also on a learning journey. And in order for me to be open to learning, I need to listen. And I need to listen deeply. And and I also need to consider different perspectives. And sometimes that means I need to step back and support others. Others to step forward. So I think that that quality of humility those teachings really, I hold on to those today because I think that they do really serve me and guide me in my, in my work. So I also think that one of the one of the things I learned about The Grove is an approach to care that's collective. Velvet Lacasse: And I think that when you think of being part of a community and you really think about caring for everyone in that community and thinking about like we said before, about busting barriers, but also centering accessibility. Like, what does community look like when we put accessibility at the center? How does that shift the way we conduct meetings? How does that, you know, shift the way you know, all of it, how we create opportunities for whole school events or curriculum or I mean, all of it becomes quite interesting around, like, how do we ensure that everyone has a sense of belonging, but that everyone can participate in a way that's meaningful? And I just I think that's what I carry with me moving forward is, you know, thinking about if we were to put accessibility at the center of all of our organizations and institutions and structures it would open everything up. And if we, if we consulted with people about what they needed in order to participate I think we would find our experiences richer because there would be more, more voices helping us to to kind of shape the organization or the community into one that meets the needs of everyone. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, one of the Grove's signature traditions was Gender splendor week. Yeah. Complete with a student and her name was Kiki Paul. Run away. For educators listening to who want to foster gender inclusion, what practical first steps would you recommend? Velvet Lacasse: I mean, this is a wonderful question because I am very proud of the curriculum that we created that we called Gender Splendor. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Velvet Lacasse: It was, you know, it is joyful. It's arts based. It is a celebration of the to LGBTQ community. It really confronts homophobia, transphobia and with, you know, really encourages everyone to think about how we can be intersectional in our approach to being an ally. And it has challenged all of us. Even those those of us who feel, you know, woke or very informed by by the queer community. I think that I've learned a lot. And I'm happy to share that learning with others. One of the things Shannon and I have done is, is shared gender splendor as a workshop with other educators, and we always talk about the importance of stories. And there are so many wonderful picture books out there that educators can use to help them guide the conversation. Because what I've learned is that there are a lot of educators who are afraid of the topic. There's a lot of fear. And then that fear makes people afraid to take those risks and to be brave. So one of the things I like to, you know, share with educators is I encourage them to to be brave, to trust that you know that this work is supported by the Ontario Human Rights Code, by the Education Act, that, you know, your union has your back. That you know, there will be you may encounter families that are unhappy, but they're not allowed to opt out, especially if you're integrating it throughout the curriculum throughout the year. Velvet Lacasse: So picture books are a wonderful entry point. Another one is like really simplifying the idea. The big ideas, like love makes a family and asking students to share stories about their families and then introducing the idea of same sex families or, you know, different different that families can have different shapes, but what makes them similar is that love makes a family. And then another introduction I find helpful is stereotypes because young people have have already been smothered in messaging around what it means to be a boy and what it means to be a girl. So when you start to invite young people to share their experiences and and to challenge, you know, question, where do those ideas come from? They come from our family, from the media, from, you know, from our friends, from, you know from society. And what do those messages tell us about how we should behave and dress and feel and, and what happens when we don't fit into those boxes? And it's in those moments that kids feel isolated or feel like something's wrong with them, feel like they don't belong. Sometimes they're victims of bullying and harassment. And and so what we're trying to do in gender splendor is create space for kids to be exactly who they are. And when we talk about gender, we say gender is what's in your heart. And and that concept is, is actually easier for young people to understand that it is for older people. Velvet Lacasse: We find that conversations about pronouns younger people just kind of like, oh, okay. And it's not a big deal. Often it's the adults, I think that are bringing their own childhoods into the, into the conversations and, and struggling. I think and this is a big generalization too, but it's, it's the adults I find that are having a harder time accepting you know, that, that, that, that there's no threat, you know, that that creating space for queer and trans youth and, you know, recognizing diverse families doesn't have to threaten heteronormativity, doesn't have to threaten patriarchy, doesn't have to. He doesn't have to be a threat. Right? We need the world needs more love. So And we want people to be happy. So I think that whenever you do gender inclusion work you know, try to try not to focus on, you know, statistics of, you know harassment or you know, the ways that you to LGBTQ youth are struggling with their mental health issues because you want to I mean, I think those stories are important, but you also want to create a lot of space for joy and you know, comfort and Yeah, love. I mean, I think at the center, I mean, what I'm also trying to center in my teaching is love in addition to access, because I think that that's definitely what we need more of. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Now you're. First of all, I like that title, Gender Splendor. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Velvet Lacasse: You love words. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're multi-age inquiry project. Seeds of change. Velvet Lacasse: Yes. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Used water justice as an entry point. How did you guide young children to grapple with complex issues like global water inequality without overwhelming them? Velvet Lacasse: It's such a good question because that we talk a lot about this in education around climate anxiety and how young people are really struggling to make sense of the world. And to, to find that hope. And how can we talk to young people about climate change and about issues related to environmental racism or inequities that are, you know, that are impacting people in different ways around the world without overwhelming them or making them feel paralyzed, like there's nothing that they can do. So it comes back to, you know, whenever you're working with kids you need to give them the tools to to express themselves and to take action. So I think that Seeds of Change came out of a desire by Shannon and myself to explore environmental justice and also through through the process of inquiry, really asking kids to share. What do you notice? What do you wonder? What are your ideas about? You know, how we might respond. So I've been doing some of this work. I identify as a settler and thinking a lot about reconciliation and about what my role is as a settler on this land in terms of building relationships with land and building relationships with indigenous communities so that I can be a part of taking action towards reconciliation. And so I think water became this really wonderful opportunity to bring together a lot of these ideas and commitments. Velvet Lacasse: So we started with encouraging young people to think about their relationship with water. You know, to think of a memory, to think of an experience or an encounter they had with water and to share those stories. So again, we were beginning with storytelling and we were beginning with our own connection to nature. And what I've come to understand is if we can strengthen and really nurture our children's relationship to nature and their connection to nature, it will have an impact on how they care for nature, right? They will feel a sense of reciprocity and responsibility and respect because it's coming from a place of love. So one year we asked students to collect a jar of water from some place they had visited. So, you know, some kids had the opportunity to go to the ocean, you know, on the East Coast or some kids went to a splash pad and took some water from there. Other kids had the opportunity to go to a stream or a lake. And each each student shared their sample of water and stories connected to water. And that was, you know, we spent a lot of time sharing those stories. And then we started thinking about how is water important? You know, and we wrote letters to water. We actually wrote letters that said, dear water. Velvet Lacasse: Oh, yeah. And it was. They were very poetic, Donna. You would have loved them. And I had this vision that we would eventually turn those poems into songs, because there are we also introduce stories of water walkers. So these are, you know, women in First Nations community. There's a beautiful book called The Water Walker about Josephine Mandamin. And she was an Anishinaabe water walker. And she led women on these walks around all of the Great Lakes. And she did this to raise awareness about water and about access to clean water. So we read a few story picture books that introduced this idea of communities that might not have access to water. And again ask kids throughout the the inquiry to share their questions, share their concerns like and you know, they they get it. You know they, they see, you know, they have this wonderful sense of injustice and fairness. So there was this, you know, appropriate outrage that, you know, young people didn't have don't have access to clean water, which is still very true in Ontario and many places across Canada. But then we started to make connections about where are these communities that don't have access to clean water? And then suddenly you get these deeper conversations about, you know, colonization and, you know, I mean, white supremacy, which you depending on the age group, you may or may not discuss, but you know, why is it that First Nations communities on reserves don't have access to clean water? Well, it's because the Canadian government which was formed by English and French settlers, decided that they were better than, you know, that sense of being better than or superior to another group of people and, you know, allow them to discriminate against them. Velvet Lacasse: So once you have this sense that, like, water is a right, we all deserve to have clean water, suddenly there are communities not far from where we live that don't have clean water. Right? You know, we planted these seeds and then we also met just like when we were talking about you as an activist. We we talked about Autumn Peltier, who's the granddaughter of Josephine Mandamin, and she is another water activist, but she's quite young. And and so we were watching speeches that she made, and she actually met you know, the Prime minister, and she was really upset and visibly moved and demanded that he does more, you know, for her community. And so those those stories stirred something up in, in the students. And then they wanted to write letters. And again, so writing letters becomes part of activism and advocacy. We also attended a protest. We learned about and this would be difficult to do because they've changed some of the rules about this. Velvet Lacasse: But there there's a there's a community in Grassy Narrows First Nations community, and their water has been poisoned by mercury for years. And and this is causing all kinds of health issues. And the Canadian government is not doing anything about it. And so the youth came to Queen's Park and we listen to one of their songs, which was called Home to Me, and we learned their song and we went to Queen's Park, and we stood in solidarity with these young people to show our support. And we had signs. And, you know, I think being part of a larger movement I think helps young people to recognize that change happens when we can bring people together, when we have that shared vision certainly of justice or access and equity. And also when we hold people accountable. Right. Like, people with power need to be challenged. Just just like in your charter challenge, like the government has a responsibility to care for all Canadians, not just the ones that you know, are able to see or the ones that are able to, you know, that live in cities. But I think equal access means taking care of everyone and ensuring that they have what they need. So I feel like I think that's some of the those are some of the strategies that I've used. Velvet Lacasse: I also involve families because of course, you know, young people are overwhelmed as they consider climate as they as especially as they are exposed to events that are happening in the world. So it's also really important to involve families in these conversations so that they know about the conversations that we're having in schools, sharing resources with families and inviting them to join us when we have whole school events, like on World Water Day, we read our dear water letters out loud. We also used experiential learning. I had students carry buckets of water around the track to simulate you know, that there are lots of young, young girls and women who have to travel great distances to get to a clean water source. In other parts of the world. So they had that experience and I hope that that changes, you know, their perspective. And yeah, and eventually they'll begin to make connections and see how these inequities are part of larger systems that need to be that need to be. Well, I would say dismantled and transformed, but of course challenged in some way. Right. So yeah, that Seeds of Change is, is again another, another experience of, of collaboration that I feel very proud of. And yeah. Well hope, hope to continue in many different ways. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Impressive. Very impressive. Velvet Lacasse: Thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you have received honors such as the e t f o anti-bias award and the Edward. I hope I pronounced this correctly. Velvet Lacasse: Burtynsky. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Burtynsky. Grand prize for invite environmental for Environmental education, which recognition has meant the most to you personally? And how has it fueled your next chapter of work? Velvet Lacasse: Well, it's very it's very flattering that you would highlight those awards. I mean, those awards were gifted to me because of the work that I did at The Grove. I love like you. I love to write, and I always encourage educators to write and write to document their stories, to document the amazing learning that's happening in their schools. And so I have been very privileged in that my writing has been shared. And so I'm proud of all of those accolades. And I was thinking about this question, and I was thinking that last year I had a really challenging year. I experienced a lot of homophobia in my school. And it was really painful. And there was a student in my class who let left a little note on my desk, and she had she had colored a rainbow, which is a symbol of the LGBTQ communities. And it said stay slave velvet. So that's like slang. Do you know that expression? Stay slay? Yes. Yeah. So slay. And so I actually think that that is an accolade. So I taped it to my laptop so that I could open it up and see that message every day, because to me it was a student in my class saying to me anonymously, I see you. You know, I I recognize you I want I support you, and I want you to keep going. So I think that's the kind of reward I think that is really going to fuel me because I'm not I'm not at the Grove anymore, and I definitely don't. You know, there's a moment in The Wizard of Oz where Dorothy says, we're not in Kansas anymore. Yeah, that's how I feel. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. How old was this child that left? Velvet Lacasse: She. So she was ten. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Velvet Lacasse: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm grateful to her. And I'll keep that on my on, like. It's like an affirmation, right? A positive affirmation that I see every time I open up my laptop. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well I see where our clock is beginning to tell me. And I leave this interview but I, I'd like to slip this question in and then ask you, you know to combine this with what's next for velvet Marcus. So after 12 years at the Grove you moved to Peterborough to teach in the. And I hope I have this right. Kawartha, Pine Ridge, is that right? District school board. Velvet Lacasse: You bet. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What new opportunities and and challenges have emerged as you transplant your justice focused pedagogy into a more traditional setting? And what's next for you? Velvet Lacasse: Oh, and Donna, you are so wonderful with words like, I just love that idea of transplanting. I do feel like I have been uprooted. Peterborough is a much smaller community than Toronto. It's also much more rural. So some of my students were, you know, they were going fishing and hunting on the weekend, and that was something I couldn't relate to. And there are, you know, many rabbits that hop around in the, in the yard. And that's not something you would see in Toronto. So, no, I think that some of the challenges in a small town are, you know, there's a lack of diversity. And, and that means there's a lack of exposure. I'm not quite what they expect. I have a very short haircut right now, and you know, their idea of what it means to be a woman is someone with long hair who wears dresses. And sometimes I'm challenging what they expect. So they don't quite know what to make of me, but So that's been interesting. I feel very othered. I feel you know, I often am. I feel like the only queer person in my school. And that's quite different from the Grove. So and that can be isolating. But I have made an effort because I really crave community and connection. I have made an effort to meet people and to build new relationships. I'm very active in the union. I have found some really progressive and kind people here. Lots of artists, lots of activists. And I think that what's next for me is really trying to trust that that what I'm bringing to the school is enough that I want to be my authentic self. Velvet Lacasse: And you know, I every on the first day of school, I always wear this t shirt that I have that has a heart with, with the rainbow flag on it because I want to be a very visible ally. And I want to continue to do this work which is to be a social justice elementary educator. I want to support other educators to join me in this work, because I think this work is more powerful when we can bring other people into it. I think what's next is, is just caring for myself as I do this work because it can be exhausting. And so I think, you know, making sure that I'm balancing out how hard I'm working at school with lots of things that bring me joy, like music and singing and dancing or connecting with friends or walking with my dog because I think connecting with nature, like taking care of ourselves, is so important. And when you are an educator and an activist and you're always looking out and caring for others. I think we forget that self-care is a radical act, you know? And so I think Joy and, you know, just continuing to do the work that I do with joy and curiosity and compassion and gratitude. I think that's that's what I hope for myself. Health, too. You know, good health. And I hope the same for you. Donna, we're so grateful to you for all the work that you've done for all of all of the work that you're putting out into the world. The way that you invite all of us into your work. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The pleasure has been mine, and it has been a privilege. And this has been a really, really refreshing interview. And I'd like to invite you to come back to us if you want to talk about anything else in the future. I think this is a motivational interview that that so many people need to listen to. I want to thank you, velvet, and I hope that, you know, one day we get to meet in person again. I don't know how this would be, but we could try and make it happen and I will be in touch with Shannon. So again, thank you from the bottom of my heart. Keep on going. Don't give up. Never give up. Velvet Lacasse: Okay, I'll do that. And thank you, Donna. You really are remarkable. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. You take care of velvet, and we'll talk soon. Velvet Lacasse: Okay. Bye. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna Jade at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #44: Interview with Kathy Saliba, Manager, Passenger Care, Greater Toronto Airports Authority (GTAA) | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-09-22-2025/ In this wide-ranging episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Toronto Pearson's accessibility lead, Kathy Saliba, to unpack how one airport is turning "independence, dignity, and delight" from slogans into daily practice. Sparked by Donna's 2021 feedback, Saliba traces Pearson's curb-to-cabin choreography, where airlines provide assistance but the airport orchestrates consistency, and highlights the Rick Hansen Foundation Gold certification earned after multi-year retrofits: accessible self-serve kiosks, hundreds of tactile attention indicators, more quiet spaces, and 100+ hearing loops. They spotlight people-first programs that change staff behavior (the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower lanyard, now embraced by Air Canada and WestJet) and traveler-first tools (a pivot from little-used wayfinding beacons to the Aira Explorer service, plus work to personalize Pearson's accessible app and digital maps). Training across contractors, collaborations with CATSA, and a new "travel rehearsal" program round out the playbook for reducing friction at the most stressful points of the journey. The conversation widens to culture, measurement, and scale, Pearson served ~47 million passengers last year, linking accessibility to fewer bottlenecks, higher satisfaction, and real revenue as all passengers spend time (and money) on their own terms. Saliba details how the team pressure-tests ideas with lived experience through an Accessibility Advisory Council (including Autism Ontario and the Alzheimer Society of Ontario), practices rigorous tech triage (safety, reliability, universal design, ease of adoption, pilot before scale), and keeps preparedness in view (strobes, PA alerts, evac chairs, and forthcoming mobile alerts with ASL/LSQ). She underscores "accessibility as a team sport," sharing wins via the Canadian Airports Council working group and learning from global hubs and non-aviation spaces alike, then invites listeners to keep the feedback loop alive so Pearson can keep "putting the joy back into travel." TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just the sighted ones. In July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equity equal access into federal law and most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles. One goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into daily practice or everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest. A change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Kathy Saliba, I'd like to welcome you to our podcast for today. Kathy Saliba: Thank you very much, Donna. Really excited to be here. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm excited to have you and, you know, hear more about the work that you have been doing. So, Kathy, when you and I first connected in 2021 about my trip to the Caribbean. What gaps did that conversation highlight for you, and how did it influence the way that passengers care now serves blind travelers? Kathy Saliba: Thanks, Donna. That was it feels like just yesterday that we met. Actually, I've been in this role for a couple of years now, and I do recall some of our earlier conversations and they were pivotal because the way we approach accessibility is that we we need to hear and learn from people who are experiencing the airport journey. So although sometimes not a perfect journey, it is. We need to hear about it so that we can make those improvements. So it really was impactful and enlighten us. You know, I think it highlighted and I'm trying to remember all not all the details, but I think they were twofold. I mean, there were definitely a few gaps that we are already starting to work on through our work with the Rick Hansen Foundation around the physical barriers at the airport. And I'll touch on that in a in a second. But it was it was also around the people aspect and, and and the technology aspect. So when, when even when assistance was booked for a passenger with a disability, there was that gap with information flow. It wasn't always consistent. So it flagged to us two things. You know, staff training is pivotal. And it really is important to focus on frontline staff anticipating needs instead of just, you know, reacting to requests. And also the need for independent tools and, and, you know, not just staff support for travelers who are blind. The way I see accessibility and the way I approach it and our ambition in our small but mighty team is the fact that we want to make sure that passengers experience the airport with independence, dignity and delight. And I think the independence and dignity. There were some gaps when we first talked about it. So it was it was a very helpful conversation. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For listeners who have never, ever flown through Pearson, can you walk us through the full curbside to cabin assistance journey and explain how your team choreographs each and off behind the scenes? Kathy Saliba: Sure. Toronto Pearson is, you know, the biggest airport in Canada. So we do things a little bit differently. And definitely it is complex. So what happens at Pearson in particular is that the airlines themselves are responsible for assisting passengers with reduced mobility throughout the whole journey. So you know, they can provide a wheelchair and mobility assistance, but not only that, you know, it also it includes passengers who may be deaf, who are blind, who have cognitive impairment, what have you. So how it works when you're departing at Pearson is, you know, you get to the airport and whether that's being dropped off at curbside or, you know, parking in the garage or maybe, you know, taking the the Up express or the TTC or what have you the they the airlines have mobility service providers, and those folks will meet you there wherever you're getting dropped off or, you know, starting your journey. And they will take you to whichever waypoint you need. So with Air Canada it's a little bit different. And not to get into the weeds, they would take you to a special aisle, but if it's any other airline, they would take you to one of our accessible self-serve check in kiosks or maybe to one of the counters help you with the baggage drop off and to the security. Kathy Saliba: And then once you pass security it depends. Every airline does it a little bit differently. Some have areas where they pass you on to someone else, depending how they have it structured. But there are some handovers from one agent to another. And and then they take you to the gate essentially. And then of course boarding the plane. So that's, that's very like high level departures and arrivals is pretty much the same in the sense that the service provider will meet you or the or, or your caregiver or what have you. They'll meet you at the aircraft and they'll take you through customs. You know, help you with the baggage and all the way to the curb. Or maybe the parking garage. And again, yes, there are handovers, especially if there's a connecting flight that they're trying to that is with a different airline, for instance. But but that's essentially the, the journey. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just want to give a quick shout out to your agents Brent Bird and the gang. I am so, so, so, so pleased with each and every one of them. Whenever they meet me at the curb or they meet me upon arrival. Kudos. Kathy Saliba: Oh, thank you for the shout out. I know that you appreciate that. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes. Now, Pearson recently earned the Rick Hansen Foundation Foundation Golden certification in both terminals. Which specific design choices or refits proved decisive, and how do passengers directly benefit from them? On a typical travel day? Kathy Saliba: Oh, that. I love that question. So this was the reason I like it is because it was such a long project. It was a multi year. I think it took about five years altogether years of collaboration and a multi-million dollar investment to make these retrofits in terminals one and terminal three. You know, at the end of the day, what the Rick Hansen Gold certification is, it's their highest level that they award and it recognizes in general, not just airports, but any organization that goes really above and beyond creating those inclusive spaces. Right. And this predominantly, I would say it does focus on the built environment, like the physical environments, although I think now they've updated it and it encompasses other elements, but nonetheless there was a lot to fix because, you know, terminals get dated. So, you know, it's it's a weird one because I think there's a bunch of retrofits that were done that I wonder if passengers just walking through it don't even notice. As an example, there were hundreds of tactile attention indicators installed all over the place, and maybe a regular, I don't know, like someone just running a business person running through the airport might not notice them. And others, I hope, do so that, you know, they don't slip and fall before, you know they walk on a staircase as an example. Kathy Saliba: But I think that what I love about it is that it really impacted every passenger. Yes, it started off with passengers with disabilities, but every change was really for any passenger. And that's the beauty of accessibility. If you do it for one passenger, it really works for anyone. So now because of that work, all our self-serve check in kiosks are accessible. There's over 100 hearing loops at all our counters. For people who have the cochlear implants as an example more quiet spaces and what have you. So it just it really it some improvements you can really see and touch and then there's others that you can probably stroll through and not even notice because you just they've become part of the environment and, and it's, it's, it's something I can't imagine us not doing moving forward. Like we can't we couldn't live without it. So it was really impactful. But lots of sweat and tears went into that one because it was such a monstrous big undertaking. It's not easy to, you know, shut down parts of the airport to make changes on the curbside to you know, add paint in various parking garages and add glazing to windows and what have you. And it was all part of this project. It was, it was a big Herculean effort by by many. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I mean it sounds overwhelming Kathy Saliba: It was, but it was, it was well worth it. Well worth it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you championed the hidden disabilities sunflower lanyard at Pearson. How does this small symbol change staff behavior. And what measurable impact have you seen for travelers with non-visible disabilities? Kathy Saliba: Yes. This has been a program that's been incredible. For listeners. Essentially what this program is, is it was started in the UK many years ago. To and it's basically a lanyard that you wear that's green with sunflowers on it. And what it does is it gives people staff, ideally a discreet visual cue that someone may need extra time, maybe clear communication or just some extra support because they have some kind of non-visible disability. It can be anything from, you know, autism to PTSD to some sort of learning disability or what have you. And I would say we've measured higher satisfaction scores with the sunflower lanyard than many other programs. And the anecdotal stories that we hear are so touching. And it really showcases that thanks to this program, people have had a smoother journey. It really the staff are so behind it and love this program, and it really shifted staff behavior from just, you know, routine interactions that they may have with passengers to definitely being a little a lot more empathetic. I and it's a big part of our education. We do lots of training. Some is more formal, but we also do a lot of activations just in and around the airport, where we meet airport employees and tell them about it. And you'd be surprised how many of these folks are not just, you know, passing by and grabbing, you know, the lanyard or we have these little pins that show their support and sometimes, you know, some nice giveaways. You'd think that people would just run on their way to work and grab the tchotchkes and keep going. People stay at our booth and want to learn about the program, or tell us personal stories of them knowing someone who has some sort of non-visible disability, or they themselves having a non visible disability. Kathy Saliba: So it's one of those things that, you know, if we get in front of the airport employees, they can easily get behind it. I think our challenge is that we have at the airport itself, not the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, who manages Pearson, but Pearson itself has over 50,000 8000 employees. So the challenge is definitely just having that continuous education. There's people that come and go, staff turnover, new people coming in. So it's an ongoing program that we have to keep refreshing people about. But it's one that's very well received. And the great thing about it is that not only has it recently been adopted by Air Canada and WestJet, so that helps promote it even more that, you know, you can grab a lanyard when you're on the plane or what have you, but it's a program that's well recognized around the world so you can be, you know, taking off at Pearson and have your lanyard on and you can be landing in Heathrow. And the folks at Heathrow will also understand what it's about. And you walk out of Heathrow, you know, hop on the tube or go to a theater there. It's so common there that you can have that end to end passenger journey, which is what I think makes it really really special. So yeah, it's a great program and it really has, I think, changed staff behavior for the better. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good good good good. Now orientation is critical for blind and low vision passengers. How are the CNIB wayfinding beacons, tactile signage and mobile app performing in a practice? And what feedback loops keep them current? Kathy Saliba: I love I love these questions. It sounds really ask me these before. Kathy Saliba: So so I think the feedback loop and hearing from passengers is key. So as an example, let's talk about the beacons first. Yeah, they weren't very popular to be honest, and we weren't really getting too much feedback around them. So we thought to ourselves, well, where how can we help passengers who are blind have that independence. And we do have something called the IRA app, or now it's rebranded as it's called IRA explorer, right? We decided to focus more on that versus the beacons, the IRA explorer app, just really quickly for listeners. It's essentially, you know, you have your phone, you get to the airport anywhere at the airport doesn't have to be at the terminal. It could be at one of the parking garages. You open it up and you're connected automatically with a person or a live agent who uses your camera to look at your surroundings so they kind of can help guide you. And it's great in that you get more specific guidance. And you can also, you know, go to a store and be a little more specific on shopping. Say you're at duty free and looking for, I don't know, a specific wine. They can direct you more more towards that than versus just, you know a beacon that drops you off at duty free and you're kind of left to your own devices trying to figure out, you know, what to shop for as an example. Kathy Saliba: So it's definitely more independent and personalized. And we just had better feedback. So we decided let's focus on that. But that being said, now what can we do to improve you know, the mobile app experience and the tactile signage. And that's a work in progress. So the digital maps that we have are, are good. There's always room for improvement. And we've heard lots of great feedback from CNIB. So we're working with various consultants, third parties to improve that and and see how we can make them more user friendly. And that's a big one. Of course, the mobile app is fully accessible, and we're working on ways to make it more personalized so you can have more experiences that are tailored to you. And that includes ensuring that you know, if you know your flight number, if you know the gate, you can punch in a few things and be notified of gate changes or what have you while experiencing the airport, so you don't have to sit at the gate if you don't want to. You can go and shop, eat, do whatever you want to do and not be constricted to a certain place. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, technology is really racing along and really giving us more opportunities, isn't it? Kathy Saliba: Oh, certainly a lightning speed. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, too fast for me at times. I have to keep up with this. Kathy Saliba: As do we, as do we. We have to do the same thing. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Multiple contract terms touch a passenger's journey. So you have the wheelchair attendants security airline agents. How do you train and monitor okay these different teams so that the experience feels seamless rather than fragmented. Kathy Saliba: Well and that goes back to as I mentioned there are lots of contractors and we work the airlines are responsible for their passengers. But how do we work closely with them. So that we can really feedback that we can share our ideas and make it all better. So our airline relations team, of course, works really closely with all the airlines and their third party mobility service providers in incorporating all of that. And, you know, the they are responsible for their training, of course. But we also work hand in hand because there's, there's ways to share our learning. There's trainings that we do that might benefit them and vice versa. So it's very collaborative. And, and definitely a work in progress. But it, it's when it's done right, it's very impactful given the scale of how big the airport is, it's profound when we get it right. And going beyond just, you know, the wheelchair attendants. We work really closely with Catsa, which are the security agents to collaborate. So recently, you know, we, we helped ensure that the sunflower logo was on their family assistance. Lane. We've collaborated with them to understand how their facilitators are helping passengers with well, all sorts of passengers, but also passengers with disabilities to improve that experience and make the flow seamless so there's less bottlenecks. So it's really the interesting role that I have is that I get to touch on all these multiple contractors and figure out how do we work on this together and make it better. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I'm really, really impressed with one of your managers. Her name is Brenda Barone. Oh, she's lovely. She gets it, you know, like she's there even before I returned to Canada last week, two weeks before. She's asking me. What do you mean? Are you returning? And I'm so pleased with with this type of attitude, I really am. Kathy Saliba: That's wonderful. Yeah. She's lovely. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So security screening can be extremely stressful. What adaptations or protocols have you put in place to make that checkpoint faster, safer and more dignified for people using assistive devices or who cannot see visual cues? Kathy Saliba: You know, that would be a really good question to ask Kazza, because they do the security screening we have collaborated collaborated with them. And as an example, when we launched the IRA explorer app or even now, the IRA ASL app. We make sure that they understand what it's about so that they can incorporate it and not be surprised if they see a passenger using one of these tools. Of course we've installed those sunflower logos so that they are included as part of their family assistance lane to fast track folks, not just make the journey more seamless. Going through security. At the end of the day, you're right, security is stressful. So, you know, I think they can probably speak more to how they're making it safer and more dignified. I can't speak to all of that, but a lot of the there is a lot of collaboration. And even, you know, when we do big events like ready, set, fly, which is a big familiarization tour for families with members who have autism, that's a rehearsal. And we make sure that catsa CBSA, all the government agencies are not only aware of it, but participating in it, and they get a chance to also learn from those experiences and ask those passengers, you know, what do you need from us? What would have made that less stressful? So there is a lot of opportunities where when we're working on something, we make sure they're part of that program as well, because those are the pain points or the, the areas that may cause some anxiety for travelers. So it's really imperative that we work hand in hand. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tsa has certainly improved a heck of a lot. I really like the Catsa team. Kathy Saliba: Very yeah, the facilitators that they've implemented, and it's been maybe a year or so. They're great. Yeah. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very. Now departures get a lot of attention, but arrivals can be tougher. How can you be tougher? How do you ensure that assistance is ready at the gate? Through immigration baggage claim and out to the curbside pickup. Kathy Saliba: I think it goes back to again, I mean, the airlines are responsible for those processes, and it goes back to the collaboration that we have with airlines to make sure that they're aware of what's happening in the environment day of what's coming up so that they can anticipate and predict and be a little more proactive of how they can make that journey more seamless for their passengers. There's a lot of collaboration. And again, I think, you know, someone from the airlines team would be best suited to get into the weeds of that. But it is understanding what's happening in the environment as well, so that they can be ready. You know, if there's you know, weather delays or, or or maybe some issues with the baggage area, how can they anticipate that so that they can get those passengers to wherever they need to be in a timely fashion. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A lot of work. Kathy Saliba: A it's a lot of work. It is, it's but it's, it's, it's the most rewarding I would probably say. And you know there's a lot of great roles at Pearson. It's an amazing, amazing place to be at. I, I'm very lucky. I feel like I have the most interesting, rewarding role for sure. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now emerging tools like indoor GPS, haptic wearables and 80 sorry AI chat agents right, are appearing fast. What criteria do you use to decide which technologies belong in an airport environment and which are still too experimental? Kathy Saliba: Well yeah. We just mentioned you know technology is moving at lightning speed right now. Yes. And I mean, who hasn't used AI? And, you know, it's funny. So when I started in this role two years ago, coming from some of my clients back in the day were tech focused. So when all these novel, novel new tech ideas were coming out from various companies around the world and they were pitching me, I was so excited. And then I started thinking, okay, that could be my day job. Like, there's just so much to sift through. So I really quickly learned how to avoid buying into the hype and really zooming out and taking a step back to a understand, you know, what is that tool a part of our broader Pearson strategy, but also looking at some criteria, you know, is there some proven reliability? And if not, is this a pilot that of that we can test out in a controlled space before scaling it, you know. Is it safe? Safety is number one at Pearson. Of course. And you'd be surprised. There were a lot of accessibility tools and companies pitching me that didn't really take into account the fulsome universal design. Kathy Saliba: You know, I look at their app and it wasn't fully accessible. And, you know, so that was a little bit of a gap or a red flag. And then just overall looking at the ease of adoption. So let's just say we do a pilot and it does work. Are we able to branch out and make this available to our passengers. So I kind of really quickly and, you know, through a little bit of trial and error, had to figure out what is that test for us and for me and for the team. I think it really looks at does this genuinely reduce friction for the passenger? Is it going to make their lives easier or is it just going to add another layer. And maybe that layer is okay, but is that just really a band aid or is it actually going to make the journey better? And that's, you know, it's hard sometimes you have to test and some things work, some things don't. But but that's, that's kind of how it's, it's, it's almost like a startup kind of mentality where you have to take some chances, but you have to take some smart chances. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I fully agree with that. You know you just can't just, you know, somebody comes to you and say, well, this is going to work. You have to test it to make sure it is going to work in your environment. Right? Kathy Saliba: Yeah. And there's a lot of testing. And it's not just testing in our environment. And with our, our folks, it's even just, you know, going out to the people with lived experiences and saying, does this even make sense? Like, is this even worth pursuing with this? Do you even think it would be helpful? And it's funny what you learn, right? I can't foresee how a tool can help every single disability until I go and talk to people with various disabilities to see if this is going to be something useful, or actually create another barrier. So it's tricky. It's exciting. It's just it's it's you have to be a little more strategic because there's a lot out there. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Definitely. Now your career began in public relations now. Sorry. How has that communications background shaped the way you listen to passengers stories and translate them into operational change? Kathy Saliba: You know what? I took a I took a little bit of a 180 several years ago when I said, I'm going to try something a little bit different. And I'm very fortunate that with my career in public relations, there are tons of transferable skills. And I remember when I was in school, they the the professors would say that. And I was like, okay, whatever, but it's true. There are really a lot and a prime example is, you know, just the other day, I think last week, or maybe it was two weeks ago now, I was presenting at the University Health Network's Height Institute. They were doing first of its kind, accessible air travel forum, and I was up there in front of a lot of, you know important people. And, and I presented well I got some kudos and I was really proud of myself. And that certainly is thanks to the fact that I know how to write speaking remarks. I have trained others of how to present. So I guess now I have to do it. Although I have to tell you, I am terrified of presenting in public. So, you know, oh my God, I hate it. But I did it. I definitely made our team proud. So the presentation skills is a big one. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you have to be out there and you are trying to also get buy in from from other stakeholders when you're trying to sell in a new idea. Kathy Saliba: As an example and going back to your question about the listening piece, that's huge. I think that's the one thing I learned really quickly in public relations is that they throw a lot of information at you, and you have to figure out how to distill it and pick out those key messages and how to reframe it so that a different audience understands it. So I have to do a lot of active listening, and I have to be able to pick out and surface those stories that that are meaningful, that go beyond the statistics, that that explain the why. Like, why should someone care? And I think those are really good skills and they have helped me build Cross-departmental buy in. I think they they have definitely helped me showcase the passion I have for accessibility. I think when people hear me speak, they see that it's something that I'm genuinely passionate about and that comes through. Thanks to some of those skills I've learned throughout the years, so it definitely wasn't a waste of time. Spending two decades in that field. And of course, you know, the writing skills are always key. You want to be able to to be succinct and impactful in any writing, whether, you know, even if AI is helping you. That that's that's great. It's a it's another tool and that's what it is. It's a tool. It's not it's not what will get you to those big strategic initiatives and changes that you want to make. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I must say that your voice really tells me about your passion. Kathy Saliba: Well, thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very welcome. Kathy Saliba: I do have a big smile on my face. So. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, so Pearson handles tens of millions of passengers each year. So from a business perspective, how does investing in accessibility and. Inaccessibility translate into improved customer satisfaction, airline loyalty or revenue growth? Kathy Saliba: I love this question because I think it's really important, and something that may get forgotten, I think, is Stephanie Cardillo, who's the chief accessibility officer. She was mentioning a stat and I'm horrible stats, but she says something around, I think about a quarter of Canadians say that they have a disability. And that's the folks that actually, you know, say it. There's probably people who don't, you know forego that kind of information. So let's just say it's a quarter of a population that's a quarter of a population is huge buying power that we sometimes forget about, you know and at the end of the day Pearson's vision is to put the joy back into travel. And I really do feel like happy passengers equals in any in any business. Repeat customers. And, you know, people will say, well, you don't have a choice. You kind of have to fly out of Pearson. Well, yes and no. But it's you do have a choice of sometimes which airline you fly with. And and a happy passenger creates loyalty with those airlines and in turn, those, you know, we look at various airlines we want them to view Pearson as a partner of choice. It is you know, Pearson sees I think last year we saw about 47 million people walking through our doors, give or take. That's a lot of people. And we we are a hub and it's because of those loyalties with various airlines. Kathy Saliba: So that's one thing. That's the airline aspect of it. And at the end of the day, Accessibility. Also, if done right, it reduces those bottlenecks, it improves passenger flow, and then everyone can just experience the airport on their own terms. I mentioned, you know, sitting at a gate, some people love it. You know, my mom definitely loves just waiting at the gate. It's like she's willing the airport airline to like or the airplane to get there quicker. Which is hilarious. Whereas I'm a passenger who loves, you know, getting the lay of the land and then experiencing the airport, I want to walk around. I want to get a bite to eat. I want to I want to shop, get a coffee. But it's it's it's it doesn't matter. It's I want to spend money. And any passenger should have that ability. And like I said, they want to spend time in the airport on their own terms, and that equals potentially a lot of revenue because everyone is a consumer at the end of the day. So I think it's accessibility is definitely this hot ticket item. I think sometimes people often forget that it's it's a huge business too. And that's not a bad thing. It's just that, you know, it's a business and it allows us for revenue growth. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah I agree. Now, disabled travelers are not a monolith. How do you gather input from people with cognitive, sensory and mobility disabilities and prevent solutions? Present solutions for one greeting from creating barriers for another. Kathy Saliba: So we work really closely with our insights team, and they have many tools that I'm not going to jump into right now to gather feedback from passengers, but on top of that, on a more formal basis. We have our Accessibility Advisory Council, which has representatives across various advocacy groups, and it's all folks with lived experience who we meet with on a quarterly basis to hear their feedback especially when it comes to you mentioned cognitive and sensory. So we work as part of this group. There are folks who are from Autism Ontario as an example from Alzheimer Society of Ontario and what have you. It's really all all sorts of different advocacy groups on that end when it comes to presenting solutions. We do think through the journey map, there's journey mapping workshops that sometimes are done depending on the project at hand, or just really quickly thinking through every point of the journey and how that's going to be impacted. And we vet it with people with lived experience. So, you know, at the end of the day, we have to do those cross checks with those folks because we never want to create one solution that's going to have unintended consequences for other groups. And it's hard. It doesn't, you know, it's hard sometimes to find a solution that will work for one group and sometimes not impact another group. Like if there's, you know, in every disability, there's a spectrum, you know, you can maybe have a broken leg and you're going to, you know, heal in several months. So yes, for a few months you might experience Pearson a little bit differently, but you heal or you can be newly paralyzed and it's going to be a different a very different experience every time you pass through Pearson. So there's that spectrum in any sort of disability that we're working with, and there's just the amount of disabilities out there. Every passenger is unique. So how do we get it right? It's a lot of going out into the business to and and to passengers to vet those ideas. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's that's really true. Emergency preparedness is often overlooked. What systems exist at Pearson's? What? Sorry. What procedures exist at Pearson to assist disabled passengers during evacuations, weather disruptions or mass cancellations? And where are you still pushing for progress? Kathy Saliba: That's a great question. And I think one of my colleagues who works in that field would be best suited to answer it, for sure. Just had a very high level. I mean, safety is paramount and definitely in taken very seriously at Pearson. And it's the number one thing. So for when it comes to evacuations, we have Rick Hansen work and some other work that we've done. We have the evacuation strobes in key locations. We have various speakers throughout the airport that generate those audible alert tones and public address systems. We're working on a few tools that will also allow for mobile notifications with sign language as an example. And within ASL and Lsq, there's elevators that, of course, have all the emergency call systems that are linked to a monitored location. We have something called evac chairs. So they're basically these emergency stair chair solutions that help get passengers with disabilities or mobility restrictions from a building in case of an emergency you name it, the list goes on and on. It's a very complex system, but it's it's it's taken very seriously and always the latest and greatest is being, you know, tested for in terms of improving it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Staff turnover is inevitable in aviation. How do you preserve institutional memory? Memory so that new hires understand Harrison's accessibility commitments from day one? Kathy Saliba: So when I start, one of the reasons I started at the GTA is I was impressed by how many people I met that would just casually say, I've been here for 25 years, I've been here for 30 years. And I was like, my eyes would bulge. And I was really impressed by that because in a lot of organizations, you don't see that kind of longevity, and that's fabulous. Now with that longevity comes the flip side. You know, folks need to retire eventually. And there's so much of that institutional knowledge that you definitely want to make sure you capture. So there's a lot of, you know, from from a microscopic level, there's a lot of project Closeouts so that knowledge doesn't just walk out the door when folks leave. On top of that, you know, yes, we have the mandatory accessibility training that all new hires have to do. And there's refresher training, of course, too, because there is turnover and just even people changing roles and changing roles within the airport environment. You know, it's embedded in a lot of our standard operating procedures, too. But what I think what the key is when it comes to staff turnover is just finding those internal champions to keep the knowledge alive across departments. Kathy Saliba: We kind of know who the go to's are that are even more passionate than the regular person about some of the programming, and using those to also be our our, the people who can inspire others and get more people engaged in a lot of the programs that we offer. As an example, we just launched our travel rehearsal program, which is a more personalized tour that you can book. And, you know, someone from our team will walk you through the whole process. I'll meet you, you know, at check in and walk you all the way to the gate and back so that when you do fly, you are very familiar with your route. And to make that happen, you know, we're a very small team. We need volunteers to help us. How do we engage with those people? Well, it's those internal champions that we've met throughout the years that are always so supportive and, you know, are the first to raise their hands to help us. So making sure that those people are seen rewarded, acknowledged. Is, is one of the keys to having those preserving that institutional memory. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I think that's a wonderful program. Had I known about this before, I definitely go and ask for it. Kathy Saliba: Well, we just we just launched it this summer, so. So you can you can certainly take part in it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I might think about that. Yeah I see our clock is starting to tell me, you know, time's running out, but I want to ask you this question. Can you share a memorable, memorable instance when your team went beyond the call of duty for a traveler and what lessons it offered about service culture? Kathy Saliba: I there's so many examples where I feel like our team goes beyond the day to day. And I think that goes back to there's so many people at Pearson that are truly passionate and believe in what we're doing. I'm trying to think of one. So oftentimes it starts with a very simple email of a family member maybe reaching out to us asking for the sunflower lanyard. You can get the lanyard in many ways. You can go to our info desks at the Lost and Found. You can order it online, what have you. You can now go to WestJet and Air Canada. But you know, sometimes people just will email us. And then we dive deeper into what the situation is. And it sometimes goes just way beyond a non-visible disability. Sometimes it's a family member traveling with their kid who has a lot of disabilities and medical needs. It's pretty complex. It might be their their only flight that they might be taking. How do we make that experience delightful, seamless? That that's where we go above and beyond, I think. And we work really closely with the amazing operations team that we have to end with our government agencies. We we quickly gathered the troops, so to speak, and figure out, you know, who can assist this family. Does the airline already know? You know, I highly recommend, you know, if you are traveling and you have any sort of accessibility need or requirement, please reach out to your airline a minimum of 48 hours in advance so that they're prepared, of course. Kathy Saliba: But, you know, that doesn't often that doesn't always happen. And if it doesn't, you know, we reach out to the airline to make sure they're aware. We reach out to the security folks so that they can be prepared to one of our passenger service representatives so that they can help guide them through the journey and assist them every step of the way so that that whole process just is not just fast tracked, but just just more seamless and less stressful for the whole family. But it's those special instances, and there's been so many that I can't think of, just one specific one where everyone just comes together and makes that experience for that family so Much better. And then and then we hear about it afterwards when they come back from wherever they were traveling. And, and they're really appreciative of it. And like I said, there's there's complicated, complicated medical needs. Sometimes people have you know, and, and and it really it I think it, it makes them feel extra special. And it really takes the burden off them having to figure out one additional major logistical hurdle. So that's just one example. I could probably talk your ear off about so many that have probably on a weekly basis. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now let's go to the final question, because I'm not sure if we'll get through everything here, but global hubs learn from each other, right? Which airports or organizations inspire your work, and how does Pearson share its own best practices Offices with the wider aviation community. Kathy Saliba: So I always say accessibility is definitely a team sport. At the end of the day, let's just say you're flying out of Vancouver and you have an amazing experience. You land in Pearson, you have a crummy one. Well, you're not going to think of that flight as a whole as a great one, right? So it really is important that we share our learnings. There's no hiding something. Like, if we launch a sunflower program, the passenger only benefits if when they land somewhere else in the world, they also have that program. Otherwise, it's kind of useless, right? So that's a perfect example of collaboration. It is a team sport. It's we can learn from other airports and we do. I sit on the Canadian Airports Council Accessibility Working Group, which is a mouthful, but essentially what it is is Canadian airports we meet on a monthly basis. And we don't just chit chat. We we share learnings. We solve problems, we innovate together. We always pick a priority or two of projects we want to work towards and actually achieve them. And it's an incredible, passionate group of people and it helps all Canadian airports, big and small drive those changes. And thanks to that, many airports now throughout Canada have as an example the sunflower program because we collaborated and shared what we did right, what we did wrong when we launched it. The travel rehearsal program is something that has been done at Vancouver and at Winnipeg, and I reached out to them to say, hey, what worked, what didn't? What can we learn from your experiences so that when we launch it, we don't make the same mistakes and we can do it a little more quickly and, and, you know, get through some of those challenges. Kathy Saliba: So it's really collaborative. And I think it's really pivotal that we look at other hubs now on a grander scale. You know, there are some amazing airports out there that really do an incredible job with accessibility. We were just shortlisted for the Accessibility Award as part of the Airport Honours Awards at the International summit coming up in November, and we're in a group of incredible airports. And, you know, obviously I've looked at their, you know, websites. I hope to visit some of those airports if I haven't yet, because you can really learn and see what they do differently and what works and what what we can potentially implement at Pearson. So it's looking at the global scale. And then the other thing I really encourage my team to do is actually look beyond aviation. Zoom out and look at how the built environment is done in different places because, you know, airports are complex, but there's many other places that approach Accessibility a really unique way. We have done tours of Holland Bloorview, which is a children's rehab hospital here in Toronto. Erin Oaks kids even there's there's this program called Doors Open where you can, you know, walk around facilities across Toronto and just look at architecture and you get so much inspiration looking at how things are done a little bit differently. And there's always a nugget there of maybe we could try doing this instead of this. So it's really it's it's looking at environments that don't have anything to do with airports actually, and seeing how they solve for those kinds of problems. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Kathy, any final thoughts from you? Kathy Saliba: Oh. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: To wrap. Kathy Saliba: Up Kathy Saliba: You know, Pearson, like I said, is on a journey to bring the joy back into travel. We really mean that. And when when it comes to accessibility, we want to make sure that passengers have that independence, that dignity, that delight. And we want to hear from you. That is how we grow. That's how we learn. We appreciate feedback. So if you do want to learn more about our accessibility programs, if you want to share your journey, if you have ideas, reach out to us. Visit Toronto Pearson Accessibility. You can find all sorts of information there and how to contact us. And and I really do encourage you to reach out. We I can attest to the fact that I read every compliment, complaint and everything in between. As does my team. And we really do take it to heart. And we really want to make sure that Pearson is, is the experience that you're hoping for. So thank you so much, Donna, for even allowing us to have a voice and to tell you more about all the cool things we're doing. There's more to come in the new year as well, so look out for some cool innovations. And just and just thank you for for talking about this. I think it's such an important topic. And you're doing it justice. So thank you for this podcast. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, thank you for having come on to our podcast. And, you know, if in the future you want to come on again, you know, let me know. Kathy Saliba: But thank you. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Congratulations. You've done a terrific job. Kathy Saliba: Thank you. I really appreciate it. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Well, have a good rest of the evening. Kathy Saliba: Thank you. Same to you, Donna. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care. Kathy Saliba: All the best. Take care. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Bye. Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #43: Interview with Louise Gillis, Past President, Canadian Council of the Blind | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA | September 18, 2025 https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-09-18-2025   In this heartfelt episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes her mentor, friend, and advisor Louise Gillis for an intimate conversation about resilience, leadership, and the power of community. Louise traces her path from nursing in Cape Breton to national advocacy after sudden vision loss in the late 1990s, describing how volunteering with CNIB and the Canadian Council of the Blind ignited a full-time commitment to barrier-busting. She shares a mentoring philosophy rooted in listening first and matching advocates to the issues they care about, from transportation and health systems to hospital accessibility, and reminds listeners that White Cane Week is a year-round mindset of education and celebration.   The discussion spotlights signature wins and hard-won lessons: Louise's petition-led campaign that secured provincial funding for Lucentis and expanded treatment clinics beyond Halifax; practical advice to regulators from her work on the Canadian Transportation Agency's advisory group; and hands-on ferry audits with Marine Atlantic that turned user feedback into better signage and wayfinding. She celebrates accessible currency milestones, underscores gaps in emergency planning revealed by COVID-19 (and tools like ArriveCAN), and champions sport as proof that blindness isn't a barrier, recalling live-streamed vision-impaired curling events and competing for a national title at 76. Louise closes with a call to younger advocates: seek mentors, stay curious, and never isolate, because progress is built together.   TRANSCRIPT   Podcast Commentator: Greetings.   Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Johnson, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. In July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022. I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or committee room or pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets live experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's Guest Changemaker, whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Louise Gillis, my mentor, my friend and my advisor. Welcome to our podcast.   Louise Gillis: Thank you very much, Donna. I'm very pleased to be here on this podcast and look forward to our interview.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So are we ready?   Louise Gillis: We're ready.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So, Louise, would you start by sharing a little about your journey Need from nursing in Cape Breton to becoming a national leader in the blindness home community. What was the turning point that made you do this? Well.   Louise Gillis: It was a major turning point when the fact that had lost the most of my sight very suddenly while at work in the health care system. So on that day, I had to leave work and never did return. But after a number of months of kind of moping and saying, there's more to life than just watching soaps, which I definitely do not like. So. So I said, I got to get out and find something, so I did. Then after many attempts, finally crossed the threshold of Cnib to see what was available. And I guess there I did learn a lot and learned about accessibility and and people needing assistance to get around and do that, because although I only had sight in one eye, I didn't really have a whole lot of vision will say in the whole blind community. So there's my time to to learn that and find out about people and going out as a a volunteer volunteer coordinator with the Cnib, I got to meet a lot of different people who were blind. And I think that's the when I realized how much there needs to be done to improve the quality of life for people with sight loss. And it's during that time, too, that I was acquainted, got acquainted with the Canadian Council of the blind and began there And once I found that organization and joined with them shortly thereafter, within that same year, I kind of got thrown into it because because they said, you know, the stuff. So let's try and get this thing going. So in our own province, we didn't have a whole lot of work going on because the persons that were there before the my, my mentor at the time and she said, we'll have to find, find out how we can improve this here in the province.   Louise Gillis: So that's what we set out to do. And within a very short time, we had the whole province up and running and learning the, the needs for the province with, for people with sight loss, whatever level it was, it didn't matter. And then from there, we both went to the national level directly as delegates for the province. And soon there I was understanding a whole lot more about blindness that I never knew from my working career, because I did deal with people who were blind, but not to the extent of what other barriers they're running against. And now facing those similar barriers myself. I knew it was time to to keep on moving. So within that year that I got or shortly thereafter my next year, I got appointed to the advocacy committee. I said, well, what do I know about that? Not realizing that I was doing that all along. Right. And in fact, doing it all along, basically, since I was a child, because of different disability that I had from the age of two, that being told at that time that I was not able to go to school or continued education, that I wasn't smart enough to go to university or do any of those types of things. So I said, well, I am and I want to do this. I want to be a nurse. So I fought my way through those channels, and and I made it through my diploma program quite well on the top ten on my list in the province. So I was not. Not so dumb after all, I guess.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know.   Louise Gillis: You're not. So. So anyway, that just progressed me into doing more. So I got into full time work with nursing then, and that's when I realized that there's more to advocacy than just what you see for yourself at this moment. And then once I got into the organizations like CCB and Cnib, I realized a lot more about it. And that's when I got into full time as a full time advocate.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Quite a journey.   Louise Gillis: It was a journey. And, you know, lots of ups and downs in that time. But you have to overcome them and realize that there is light at the end of the tunnel, one way or another may not be what you are looking for, but it is a different route that you may have to take, and that's the route that you follow.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, many listers are who are curious about sudden vision loss and how it reshapes a career and life. What were the biggest personal and professional adjustments that you faced when your site changed in the late 1990s, and how did you navigate them?   Louise Gillis: Well, I guess the first one was the the shock of losing most of my site. How am I how am I going to do anything now? Because I had one career left right? And nursing. In nursing, I was not able to continue to do that type of work, so I had to go on a disability. Long term disability.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.   Louise Gillis: And again, at that same time, there really wasn't the the tools for me to keep on working in the profession in a different range of work, which now, in this day and age, there is other things that could have been doing and could have done. Well, I'm sure, but didn't have that opportunity. So that's when I had to change from my personal adjustments, professional adjustments into finding another way to use that, because I had just graduated in May, and this happened to me in September, in May from my Bachelor of Science in nursing, which I took throughout the five previous years on a part time basis while working full time and caring for family as well. And, and did very well in that, as you know, was on the Dean's list for, for doing that. So just to like four months after graduating, losing my sight and not being able to use the degree I had worked in or worked for. So I had to start thinking, how can I use that? So with the advocacy again, that's where it came in. Talking with other people that I met along the way. And you find mentors such as yourself in different ways to to to help you adjust and find out exactly what you are looking for and what you need to do to achieve your goals there. So that's how I came about. Overcoming them mostly is just trying to push forward and saying, shake this off. I got to do something. I'm not sitting home.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Not many people are able to do that. So, I mean, I know that my listeners would be really impressed and motivated to hear you say this. You know.   Louise Gillis: It's not an easy thing to do, but you really have to talk to yourself a lot and say, I can do this, and I need to do this for others too, to so that they don't have to follow in my footsteps.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And that's very selfless of you and very motivating, if I may say so.   Louise Gillis: Thank you for that.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You and I first crossed, crossed paths while I was leading the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians. And you have been a steadfast advisor ever since. What principles guide the way you mentor fellow advocates, and why do you think mentorship matters? Well.   Louise Gillis: First off, I like to get to know the person a bit better, especially if I've never really met the person before. Find out what their interests are in like they somebody may be like to just get more sports or somebody might else may like to get more medical approvals and somebody else may like to move, have better transportation. So you find out what their kind of interests are, what their background may be in those places, and start working through with them and see what they really have. And then they realize, like I did that the, the they actually had the effect, the factors needed to become an advocate if they really wanted to pursue that method. So they had to just kind of shake things off and say, okay, I can do this. But then providing them with places that they could get hints of where to work with transportation or where to work with medical systems, whatever that may be. Medications or, or any of the stuff that works with that, even in the hospital to make sure that the hospital is accessible, those types of things. How to You find those maybe governmental or legal or or just general committees to get on the committees and find out what the whole association is like that you're interested in, so that you can then go forward with that. Mentorship really matters because you can struggle along the way. If you don't have somebody to fall back on when you say, well, I have this issue and I'm thinking about doing it this way, is this the best way to go about it, or should I do it some other way? So then you talk about the item with your person and then you just make the decision. Do you feel comfortable doing it this way or how else can you approach this? We got to think of the ways to go about it. So I think it matters a lot to have mentorship.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It does. It really does. Now you led the push for provincial coverage of Lucentis to treat wet, age related macular degeneration. How did you build the coalition that ultimately convinced government to fund that life changing medication?   Louise Gillis: Well, again, that is a tricky method, but I discovered that there was somebody in the opposition of the provincial government who was quite eager to have this drug passed as well. So working with that person, we got together and got a petition, petition set up so that we could get it around, then found other people in the blind community, but also in the sighted community to to help circulate that that petition so that we can get lots of signatures on it. And then after a period of time, whatever. I can't recall exactly how long it took, but just a couple of weeks, I guess. And we continued with that, and I brought the petition to the. This particular politician and she was going to present it in the local. Nova Scotia Parliament, and I was invited to sit in the gallery at that time. During the presentation. And that was going to be it. I had tried many times before to speak with the Minister of Health in that office about it. And I always got the answer. Well, there's no money for that now. There's no money. We can't do this. Yeah. So anyway, when we did this and that minister who was in the in the opposition, that sorry politician who is in the opposition, she built a very strong statement to put with this petition And then everybody in the gallery and in the audience really were clapping that we had made such a major number of commitments by people to have this done, that it went forward and it was approved at that time. But like the petition was accepted, I should say, at that time. And then shortly after that part was finished, somebody came to tap me on the shoulder while I was in the gallery and says, the health minister wants to see you in her office.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Oh, no.   Louise Gillis: Oh, yeah. Exactly. Oh, no. So I kind of got a little faint for a minute, but anyway I said okay. So off we went to the office to, to see this to speak with the minister, and she was there with her secretary, I guess it would be. And we talked about it and again several times she said, well, we don't have it. I said, I'm not here for me, and I. I said, it's too late for me. I've lost my sight and there's no changing that. You know the damage is done and I know I said I'm here. And I pointed to her and the other lady. I said, I'm here for you. You don't know what tomorrow brings. Because my life was changed in the blink of an eye. And that can happen to you as well. Right? Right. I said I just told her. Then you know that that is it. That's my last statement. And it is. You know, I learned that you're if you have a half hour to try and get out in 20 minutes. So I knew my 20 minutes was about up. So I said, that's my last comment. And we started out. So she's opened the door partway for me, but I had to put my hand up to the door to hold it open. And on that hand was my graduation ring. Whoa. And she was a a lady who had graduated from Saint Novak's, lived in the town and was a member of parliament from that town. And she realized, oh, well, when did you graduate from. She says to me, just as a, you know, common courtesy to recognize the ring. Yes. I said, four months before I lost my sight loss. And I said, that can happen to you anytime. Wow. Out the door I left. And then we were having our national convention in in Sydney here just a couple of months later. That was in the summer. So about two months later, I guess it was. And we were in the middle of the meeting and somebody came to me and said, you have a call from the health minister.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no.   Louise Gillis: Oh, no. I guess I better go get this.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.   Louise Gillis: So anyway, I went off and talked to her, and she said Lucentis has been approved to be given, but it's only going to be given in Halifax. And I said, well, thank you very much for getting it approved. I really appreciate that. But Halifax alone is not good enough. I said, we have people all over the province who have to drive, and it takes a day to get there, you know? A day before to get there for an appointment and then you're there for most of the day, so you can't get home early that day. So it's another overnight. Many people don't have the money to pay for two hotels, plus a driver to take them, or a family member who has to leave work to get there and do this. You have to do better than that. We need clinics in different areas. My suggestion to you, because I'm from Cape Breton, I think the first clinic should be in Cape Breton.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.   Louise Gillis: And she said, well, I'll see what I can do. It won't be for a number of years yet. Oh, well, I'm I'll you'll be hearing from me again if it's not soon. So anyway, that time went on, and within the less than a year, I got another call from her saying that the first clinic had been approved in Glace Bay, which is in Cape Breton, And that's where it was. And then soon after that, there'll be more. And now it can be given in many places across the province. So that's how that that was changed.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.   Louise Gillis: Just getting to know people and being I guess not pushy but being firm and not being cross or ignorant or anything like that. But just stay in your mind. But in a, in a strong voice seems to make the difference.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think what resonates with me from your little commentary here is it could happen to you and many people really do not think of it that way.   Louise Gillis: No, they don't know for sure. I certainly never did know.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, wow. I'm impressed. Now, as a member of the Canadian Transportation Agencies As Ability Advisory group, you have scrutinized everything from curbside assistance to airline seating. What pieces of advice would you give regulators today to make travel truly barrier free?   Louise Gillis: I think the best thing is now that we have you know, really have improved quite a bit with the Accessible Canada Act and the different some provinces coming up with the Nova Scotia and others with their accessible acts. I think with all these things and developing standards and regulations, that travel has to be barrier free and people need to know that and understand it, but it's to get out and ask the people who need the the barrier free travel. What will best help you to get to where you need to go? You know travel includes more than just transportation to from one place to another. It also can be traveled within your own city, your own building. For instance, you're traveling from one unit to another unit or in a hospital or something. That's all travel under a different title, right? It's not certainly not under the transportation agency, but it's a it's more of getting there, making beaches and parks and all those things. Find out how other people have done it and regulate that all parks in Canada should be or have some accessible, barrier free transportation within their park or their beach or their whatever traveled within the the city or the towns that people live in with buses, etc.. So just to make sure that they need to know that they have to ask and have people on their advisory boards of for their accessibility advisory boards should be from the, the communities. And I'm speaking mainly for vision because quite often that is often forgotten in many, many advisory panels.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes it is. Now, white Cane Week has become a national platform for education and celebration. How can local chapters make the most of that week to create lasting community impact beyond the seven days of events?   Louise Gillis: Well, I think one of the big things I know some communities are very small and it's difficult to get that out. But when you do presentations to local community groups and advisory groups, whatever they may be is one good thing that you can do all year long, not only during White Cane Week. Also having activities that show our abilities. One thing, for instance, and I think that's coming up in a question later, but it's about sports and activities showing that we can do those types of things, but also showing people that we can be lawyers if we want to be or can be whatever that you want to do. And that's anytime of the day or night or year doesn't have to be just during White Cane Week. But White Cane Week is made to especially notify people that there is you know, a special time for education and celebration. But all year long, every day, every minute can be used to get that lasting community effect impact on people. To realize that, yes, there are people here who are able to do things and get them involved in whatever it might be, even just local groups of card playing or something to that effect. You know, there's different ways you can do that, just anything recreational. Everybody is entitled to. And people with different disabilities or different abilities can do whatever they like to do.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right now, sports has clearly played a huge role in your advocacy narrative, especially for vision impaired curling. How has stepping onto the ice strengthened your message that blindness, blindness need not be a barrier.   Louise Gillis: Well, that's an interesting question, because I recall the very first day that I asked somebody to to there's I got 3 or 4 different people together that were interested in curling because it had been in some other places in Canada, but we didn't really know much about it. But to have somebody who would take us out onto the ice and let us at least give it a try. That person kind of laughed at me and said, blind people on the ice. I said, yeah, but it's different ice than what we do on the streets. I don't like ice on the streets, but I think it could be okay there. I know others do it. We need to do it. So anyway, reluctantly, she did take us out, but she knew somebody else that I hadn't known at that time who had taught his brother and helped his brother, who had sight loss, How to curl. And he got along well. So he became her coach and and still works with us at this day. But for me, stepping onto that ice and seeing that, yes, this is something I could do because curling was something that I wanted to do while I was fully sighted. But to me it was something just seeing what it was about and whatever it seemed like it is for elite people, people who are more higher ups than I was. I was just a lowly little person down here.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yeah.   Louise Gillis: So, you know, I you know, I did go down a couple of times to the rink and see if there's something that I could learn, but and I said, oh, no, I'm not that type of person, so I'm just more side. But now that we have our vision impaired team, it has made a major difference in our community here for sure, to see that people can be out on the ice and holding the vision impaired curling champions here. February of this past year.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.   Louise Gillis: Made a major difference. We had a lot of people come in and see it. We had a lot of advertisements on radio and media, different medias and live streaming and that sort of thing so that others could see it across Canada. And I've gotten more compliments on being able to have that live stream so that others could see what we're actually were doing in a small city here. And if it really made a difference and it's not blindness. It's definitely not a barrier to enjoying a sport, right? If any sport. I know our goalball team from there's several across the country too, but no, goalball has been provincial, national and international and have won medals all across and made a difference in their lives as well. So it's not only about me, it's about anybody who takes part in any sport. Golf and a rock. Climbing and sailing and and just whatever you. If you're interested, go out and find somebody that will help you with it and get going. It's it's not it's sport is not. It's not something that will hold you back from meeting your goals in life.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like that approach. I like that attitude. I am an avid skater as well, so I understand.   Louise Gillis: Well, there you go. Yeah, I was never a good skater, so I'm not good at doing.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, well, you're wonderful at curling.   Louise Gillis: Yeah. Different type of ice. So.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. At age 76, you were still competing for a national curling title. What does that say about lifelong fitness? And how can sports programs be made more welcoming to older adults with vision loss.   Louise Gillis: Well, it's you know, it certainly is a lifelong fitness for sure, because you have to be fairly in good shape to be able to move up and down the ice and hurl a £44 rock down the other end. Yes, but any kind of sport will do the same. You know, fitness for you, dragon boating and those types of things too, which I did take part in. Excuse me. And I think they've made a major difference for me by being able to get out and see other people who are sighted doing the same sport that you're doing at the same time. And that's what's important. And many of those are older which comes to mind. We were playing against seniors one day. And this particular team we were doing pretty good and we ended up beating them. Well that gentleman was quite upset at the fact that the blind team beat him 13. So it's it's doesn't matter your age like we had a variety of ages on ours from you know, the youngest being maybe 30 and the oldest being 82 or so. So, yeah. So it's a sport that's just in my team. Well, actually, it's somebody on. They're a bit older than that now, too, so, you know, you can do it at any time if you like it and you are able to, you just keep fit and you keep on going. So you say that, you know, I think I have enough for, you know, after seven, 18 years of it, I'm still going and have already signed up for this coming year. Oh, and we did win silver medal at the nationals last year. I just just shortly after me only playing a few games in January because I had knee surgery in September of last year, and I was able to get on the ice and help to win the silver medal.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.   Louise Gillis: So if I'd been on the ice more often before, that probably would have won gold at that time. Anyway, we're happy with silver.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now, Cape Breton listeners would want to know how has your local community influence your approach to national advocacy and in turn, how has your national work fed back into programs at home?   Louise Gillis: Well, I think the local community were the majority at the time of the Lucentis in particular. The fact that I was able to get that approved in Sydney being the first place to to get the the clinic here, they were all so appreciative of that. And with being able to do that, it also helped me to do more at the national level. If I can do that here, I can do it more there. So that you know, start your, your programs at home in a smaller place where you have the support of friends and people that you do know. And that's where I was able to to work with that part to get me into that, into the national advocacy, which in turn now has, has brought more stuff, more things and remove more barriers for people in my home by having the Nova Scotia Accessibility Act, you know, for sure. And that's helping us in our areas, being making our little city here more accessible to people around. And it's through the work with community that whether it be community, local or community national, you do get to do things together and ensure that that life is better for where you are both back and forward through to local to national levels and back again.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you co-authored an open letter on Covid 19 vaccine equity for Canadians with vision loss. What gaps in emergency planning did the pandemic expose, and how should we correct them before the next crisis?   Louise Gillis: Well, that's a very good question. Emergency planning has been really no matter what the cost of the emergency has been really not protecting people with disabilities in in many ways.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.   Louise Gillis: And with the this pandemic that really exposed so much in the fact that now many communities are actually moving forward with finding out what the people with disabilities need in. Emergency measures should anything happen. And it moved beyond just the. Covid 19 exposure and getting the the vaccines for everyone. Realizing that people with disabilities now are at the foremost of any kind of. A a breakout of things just as recently as the measles that are. Coming in Canada more frequently in the past year that people with disabilities are are top on the list for that as well. And others. Rsv is now for seniors and people with disabilities free in our province and hopefully as in others at the same time, to to to realize that medical emergencies are important, to really help to get everybody looked after because somebody with anybody with disabilities may have a higher risk factor because of maybe not being out in public a whole lot and then getting into public for a medical appointment or something like that are more prone to come down with a disease condition or in the case of a wildfires, which are major this year, many places being able to escape from their homes with what they need to get out. And there's so many other examples you can give, but it really needs to be looked at more. They're starting to do that. So we, as a group of persons with sight loss and other disabilities, should be really pushing the governments to ensure that every community has a emergency plan for for people with disabilities.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think the Arrivecan app really highlighted the the need for this, right?   Louise Gillis: Yes, it did for sure. Yeah. It did.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, in 2011, you stood beside of Canada when tactile features were unveiled on our 50. And $100 notes. What did that milestone mean to you personally? And what next step would you like to see in accessible currency?   Louise Gillis: Well that is a a major step getting now all the bills with the the tactile features on them in a variety of ways. And that just watching people who are totally blind use all these features really means a lot. And the fact that our organization was the was one of the groups that worked with the Bank of Canada at the time to do this. And you know, with everybody doing that, it really made a difference for people being able to use their money more easily than having to have somebody fold it or do whatever else for them to understand what each bill was. The next steps I'd like to see in accessible currency. The, the coins also are very tactile for people to understand and use to is is just to ensure that other countries when you go to a different country, in fact you get money and you have no idea what bills are. So you have to go to somebody to, to find out what they are, because they don't all have banknote readers that you can use for those. So it's to make not only currency more accessible for people in different countries. But if you run across some of that kind of money in your own province or your own city, then you need to know what it is. You know, it could be monopoly money for all you know.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yes.   Louise Gillis: Really? So it's it's trying to to ensure that the accessibility currency continues to improve. And if there's new ways of coming up with making each of the bills even more accessible into the future, that would be great, too. So I'm not exactly sure what other, you know, it could be used for that right now.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.   Louise Gillis: Yeah.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, marine. Atlantic. Atlantic.   Screen Reader: You know.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: To inspect its ferries for Accessibility. Okay. When you conduct an audit, what common design flaws jump out first. And how do you persuade decision makers to fix them?   Louise Gillis: One of the big things that I find most reasonably after I've been working with the committee for a number of years and along with other people with disabilities, and they were very eager to fix the things that we had spoken about in the past. But they just recently got a couple of new vessels in the last year or so and just doing the view of those, finding that when they have made signage, they did do a good job to a point. But then it stopped and you're kind of lost, like going on the ferry to Newfoundland, for instance, the one that we were talking about, you. You want to know where the dog relief area is? Well, the signs along the way that are pointing in the direction, you can feel them. Tactile and whatnot. So you go and then all of a sudden you run up against a desk.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah.   Louise Gillis: And sometimes there's nobody at the desk. So where do you go? You have no idea. This is not the dog relief area. Because, you know, it's not in this place. No, it's working with them now, and I have been more recently than I have not been able to use the various this summer. They are trying to discover ways to improve that kind of markings to make sure. And they were going to put new signage up on that desk, for instance, to say, go left from here or whatever, you know, and and that is one of the things that that has happened. But Marine Atlantic actually a number of years back when the prize for the best transportation Accessibility Award, you know, over the time. And they continue to do that because they continue with the Accessibility Advisory and Inclusion Committee which I continue to be a member of, and they continue to ask the questions that you know, we've done this. It says, right, in most cases, they do send it to us before it's put into practice to see if there's if there's any changes that need to be made. And then if there are changes, they usually try to get on it and fix it. In some cases with ferries, though, there are certain things that have to be there because it's a seaworthy vessel, and they have to be fitted in such a way that the doors have to be have to have a little bumper on them so that water cannot get in the cabins and that sort of thing. So it's just preventive preventive methods. So they're working on finding ways to remind people that there are these little obstacles in the way. And prior to you getting to them so that you can, you know, get across those barriers much more easily. Yeah. So they're they're doing a lot of work and really working with the committee in, in fixing these problems. It's one of the best groups that I've worked with in, in doing things, because they seem to really want to take people with disabilities on their, their vessels. And it's a really a great organization.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, you led the initiative that saw me receive the CCP person of the year award back in 2017. Why do peer recognitions matter and in our community. How can we use words to spotlight unsung heroes? And I just want to add, I was extremely shocked and humbled that I received this award. So tell us how this.   Louise Gillis: Yeah. Well, if the main reason when somebody goes out and and does the work, just like what you had done with the Accessibility Act and all your work prior to that, and since that time, you're kind of leading the people into making Canada a much better place to live, a much safer place and barrier free. Whenever we can. And if we don't recognize people for doing that type of work it's it's kind of a sad way. Like, the person has done the work and then said, okay, it's done so much for that. What am I going to do next? But if you get an award for doing it, or recognized in any way, doesn't necessarily have to be an award or a piece. Just to be spotlighted is a major thing to show that this is what this person has done. And you can do this too. So just follow the footsteps and show that you, as a person who has won the award, can do the work. But you are also bringing people along, mentoring people about how they can do this same type of work in a different location or whatever it might be. So it's important to really recognize people have done and worked very hard, and, you know, you're not getting paid for the work that you're doing. It's all volunteer work in many cases for most people. So if you're doing that and you're not only working eight hours a day, you're working maybe 12, 14 hours and seven days a week. So that's a lot of your time. Volunteer time that goes into this. People don't understand that. And this needs to be shown to general population. That they understand that people who are blind or have other disabilities can do things and work many more, longer hours than people who are working regular shifts and getting paid a wage for it.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you have any final thoughts? Louise? Because I don't have any more questions for you, but what are your final thoughts with regard to younger advocates? What would you tell them?   Louise Gillis: I think the biggest thing that we need to tell younger folks you know, they're they're there and they're different from their peers. Yes. It's important to keep your friends from school and all that sort of thing, but you need to do some work with your yourself and be able to say, well, I need to find I'm having trouble with this particular thing in life, whatever it might be. Maybe it's a parent's not actually understanding what you're going through because they have never gone through it looking for other people in not necessarily in your town, but any place across Canada through sports or whatever you may be in who have come across the same situation and how have they been affected by it? Listen to podcasts, listen to any of these things. These are things you can do on your own time, and nobody needs to know you're listening. But you can learn from those types of things when you're just sitting back listening to what somebody has to say about something. It's advocacy. And moving forward in life is something that every person has to do, whether you have a disability or not, and each person has to be able to find that road and understand what it is and be encouraged to to get the help that they do need, and not just to stay in a corner in their house and do nothing. Because you are. Everybody's better than that. You can do something and you know that, but you just don't know the way. So see if you can find anybody and us who have gone before. You are always open for questions. If you have any questions, if you can look up our websites and whatever and get in touch with somebody in the community that can help you guide your way through.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Please, I really would like to thank you for having been an interviewee on my podcast. I've learned so much about you, the things you've done. You've not been afraid to go out there and bat the ball as they would say, but you've done it so majestically and so generously and so kindly. And I want to thank you for having been my mentor, my advisor, my friend, and I look forward to seeing you in Toronto when you get here.   Louise Gillis: I'm looking forward to seeing you and thank you for all that you have done before me even, and continue to do this day. So podcasts are important for people, and this is one way of getting information out to people who need to get support and may not know where to turn. So I think in both cases, we both have helped people in that way.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And if you ever want to come back and share anything else with us, please let me know.   Louise Gillis: I will, and thank you so much for having me here today.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My pleasure, Louise, thank you very much.   Louise Gillis: You're quite welcome. Bye, all.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Buh bye now. Bye.   Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #42: Interview with Robert Lattanzio, Executive Director of ARCH Disability Law Centre, Toronto | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA | September 17, 2025 https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-09-17-2025   In this engaging episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan sits down with Robert (Rob) Lattanzio, Executive Director of ARCH Disability Law Centre, for a candid conversation about how durable partnerships between community advocates and lawyers are built on trust, shared values, and a relentless commitment to disability rights. Rob traces ARCH's roots as a Legal Aid, funded, test-case poverty law clinic founded in 1979/1980, now in its 45th year, explaining its unique mandate: systemic litigation, law reform and rights education grounded in lived experience, alongside direct legal services and free, confidential advice for Ontarians with disabilities. He and Donna unpack ARCH's holistic approach to choosing test cases, the importance of long-standing community relationships, and how a provincial mandate can yield national impact.   The discussion highlights hard-won lessons from their joint victories, such as accessible air travel breakthroughs and why strategically crafted settlements can dismantle systemic barriers as powerfully as courtroom rulings, before turning to movement-level milestones like ARCH's behind-the-scenes legal analysis and coalition-building during the Accessible Canada Act's passage. Rob spotlights the Respecting Rights program, which pairs self-advocates labeled with intellectual disabilities and legal professionals to deliver arts-based rights education, and he urges emerging disability-rights lawyers to "never be outworked": prepare rigorously for both the probable and the improbable. He closes with a message about the strength of collective action, pointing to recent UN CRPD reviews where coordinated advocacy produced strong recommendations, proof that collaboration, continuity, and community voice drive real change.   TRANSCRIPT   Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won a landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to cited ones. In July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than 2000 disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles. One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world we're trying to build. Rob Lattanzio, it is my pleasure and privilege to welcome you to my podcast. Welcome.   Robert Lattanzio: Thank you so much, Donna. Thank you for this invitation. It's an absolute pleasure to be on your remarkable podcast.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So, Rob, over the past nine years we have collaborated on some really great landmark cases. How would you describe the working chemistry that has evolved between us? And what, in your view, makes a lawyer advocate partnership thrive?   Robert Lattanzio: That's a great question. I really like that, Donna. It's a great way to start this. The first word that comes to my mind is trust. I think there are probably a lot of other words that would really accurately describe what what makes for a really good partnership in this kind of context? I think and I'm thinking, you know, as you began your, your, intro your landmark case at the federal court years ago might have been you know, one of the first times that we, we worked together, we were representing the Alliance for Quality of Blind Canadians and as an intervener. And so I think it just makes me think how important that is, like part of part of the, the sort of trust which is the first word that kind of came to mind. But you know, having, having a shared understanding and having you know, the benefit of that, right in, in, in doing the work that we do when there are these pre-existing relationships, both organizationally and on an individual basis, we you know, those relationships are based on mutual respect, right? The shared commitment to advancing disability rights and full inclusion, And shared values and missions and, and and and these are all really important things that get built up over time. You know, maybe in our case, we can throw in the love for the Habs as well. Right. Which which helps in terms of our go Habs go with, with you know, I mean, I think you know, and, and and certainly you know, these are important things.   Robert Lattanzio: I mean, in the work that we do, we, we develop friendships, close friendships, you know, organizationally, we have close you know, close, close ties with other organizations. And I think, you know, our, our friendship stems from the work that we do. But it goes beyond that, right? Like this work, you know, which is why the community development work and capacity building work that we do is so important. And it's so vital to ultimately the, you know, the taking on of systems, right, systems changing work and test case litigation. I think it contributes to important work, like identifying the issues, identifying strategic opportunities for change. Being able to to have a deeper understanding of the issues, you know, having these ongoing relationships. It also means continuity in the work. Right? And in the development of that work and of those advocacy strategies I think it allows, you know, perhaps even more creativity and allows for more risk to be taken as well in developing positions and arguments. So so I think, you know, in the work that we do, I mean, we certainly on behalf of arch, we couldn't do the work we do without without you, Donna, and without other advocates and other organizations that we work with. It's certainly, certainly not possible, nor nor would we ever want to do that in isolation. It's just core to to how we we do our work.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We sure have a brilliant record to be very proud of, don't we?   Robert Lattanzio: Exactly. And I and I think that, you know, that goes to, again, the, the importance of building that sort of mutual respect in, in, in taking on the type of work that we do. Right. Having having the type of work relationship, you know, that allows for that allows, for example, difficult conversations to be had. I mean, this is so generally, you know, we're talking about the sort of advocate lawyer relationship or, you know, organisation to organisation type of relationship. Some of this also applies. Or a lot of this applies in the more traditional Additional solicitor client relationship as well. And it's really difficult to work through complex issues thinking about, for example, at mediation or how to frame a particular argument within, within a complex legal framework or a complex set of facts or whatever, you know, whatever may be presented. Really difficult to work through that in a way that's meaningful for everyone and in the way that you know, represents everyone's voices. If there isn't that level of of trust building. Right, and that that mutual you know, that confidence. Right. And, and the, the mutual respect that happens. So it is it is so critical. You know, it's critical generally in the practice of law. Right. But in the work we do, again, you know, we couldn't do the work. And it goes beyond litigation, just all the work we do, the community building, the capacity building, community development, our projects, law reform. We just couldn't do that without, you know, without really taking the time to to really foster and maintain meaningful relationships in communities.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, many listeners may not realize that art is a specialty legal aid clinic focused exclusively on disability rights. How would you explain its unique mandate and place within Canada's access to justice landscape?   Robert Lattanzio: Yeah. Thank you for that question, Donna. We are funded primarily by Legal Aid Ontario. We are a test case. Poverty law, community legal clinic. And as you mentioned, we practice exclusively in advancing disability rights within a provincial mandate. We also, beyond our provincial mandate, will take on some work that on a policy level that has national and international implications as well. And some of the cases that we take, all of our cases are you know, from within Ontario. But but they may have national implications, right. And we we do have, you know, we've we've I think we've had a very unique and important place within the disability rights movement in Canada. Arch was incorporated. So a bit of a history lesson if if that's okay. Donna. We were we were incorporated in 1979 in December and opened our doors in January of 1980. So this is our 45th year. And so it's been, you know, it's been a while. I certainly wasn't around in those days here at the office. Anyway, I was around. So the work that we do is, is, is still you know, very, very similar to to the sort of the, the the thinking and, and and the, the those early days in terms of what art can be you know, we we are we, we continue to be a test case clinic. We do systemic work. We do that in different ways.   Robert Lattanzio: We do law reform work, policy research. We again work alongside community. We do public legal education and rights education community development and capacity building. And and in addition to the test case work, we also do The sort of direct legal services work as well. We'll do various types of, of legal work. And and we also offer a service to all persons in Ontario with disabilities that allows for people to get free, confidential legal advice for this service in particular, regardless of of financial eligibility for other services, financial eligibility would, would, would apply and on on various areas of law. So we, we get calls from people and are contacted by people with disabilities all over the province a number of different areas of law. And we provide advice and then we may refer if those cases are not cases that we can help with and others, we, we can take on and provide direct legal representation and some of those, you know, would be identified as test cases, and we would proceed in that way. So we you know, I think along the way, I think there were a lot of a lot of firsts, you know, for for arch, I think arch when it opened its doors, really was the, the sort of first of its kind, right. As a, as a disability rights clinic in Canada.   Robert Lattanzio: And you know, I think arch has been a leader, you know, since that time in disability rights test case litigation. We've either represented persons with disabilities as a party to the litigation or or groups as interveners. So I think what's really interesting about arch and I, you know, and I think there are a lot of things but as you know, arch was one of the reasons I even went to law school, let alone, you know, wanting to work here. It really was an organization that was born out of the disability rights movement in Canada. It was founded by the coming together of disability advocates and leaders at the time to essentially create a space where advocacy efforts would be grounded in legal discourse and through legal challenges. In many ways is perhaps a product of of the need to legitimize the movement by creating a community legal clinic that can provide legal expertise on issues of of greatest importance to people with disabilities and to seek systemic change through legal challenges and other legal work. You know, to, to build that kind of legal expertise that was really focused on disability, but but was within situated within, you know, disability communities. Right. Which I, which I always thought to be, you know, just just just incredibly like, as, as a, as a legal practitioner, just incredibly fascinating, right. To, to practice in that way.   Robert Lattanzio: Which drew me here given my interest in disability rights, but but it's just a remarkable way to practice law because we, we practice law in a very holistic way. Right? We don't when when issues come before us, however, they may come before us. We don't think about it as well. Okay. We will be represented to you know, to represent at this court on, on this issue, we, we first take a step back and kind of work with our communities and figure out what this issue is. And through a holistic approach, you know, we really start thinking about, well, what's what are the the sort of the key issues and what are the strategic priorities and, and how can we be most effective And sometimes litigating isn't the, you know, the only answer, or maybe not the most effective answer. Or maybe there are other things that need to happen before. And so we we we have all that at our disposal as we work through with our communities. We work through these issues. Another thing I would say to keep in mind, you know, as I talked a little bit about the history and, and how arch began you know, through through the leadership of the day within the communities. But we should keep in mind that at that time, disability wasn't even protected in most human rights legislation. It certainly wasn't in Ontario.   Robert Lattanzio: Nor was disability included in the equality provision in the early versions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. So, you know, very different landscape, right? Like this. This would have been quite revolutionary at the time. And and so, you know, one of the first significant files that arch took on was to work with disability groups with, with advocates and leaders in the disability communities as legal counsel to, to amend Ontario's human rights code to include disability as a protected ground. So it was you know, these are very yeah, very, very different times you know than than maybe we, we remember. Right. So I think it was it really was the first and only place like it, you know, at the time within disability communities across Canada. And like I said, today, we really continue to work closely with our communities. We continue with our test case litigation practice and all of our policy and law reform, work and rights, education work and so on. As I mentioned earlier And and as I as I mentioned, certainly if there's anyone who wants to contact us for some legal advice and who's in Ontario, please do not hesitate to give us a call. And if it's something that we cannot help you with, we would certainly do our best to refer you to a place that can help you.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, now, you articled at arch in 2003, and eventually you became the executive director in 2015, I think. Yeah. What lessons do from those early years still shape your leadership style today?   Robert Lattanzio: Well I can tell you that there have been many lessons along the way. Yeah, it feels like a long, a long sort of journey. There's there's one that comes to mind in particular and that's I think always influenced my, my approach and my leadership and my mentoring. And I think it's to fully understand and appreciate the importance of what we do. You know why we do it? Why what we do matters to our clients and our communities as as a nonprofit with a with a mandate like ours. There's I find there's a weight and a responsibility that comes with it. And we need to always strive for excellence in everything that we do. Our clients and our communities deserve nothing less. Right. In my experience, it's very seldom that the easiest solution is the most effective and impactful. Right? So we need to really work at it. We need to be creative. We need to be critical of everything. So there's a so if I was to encapsulate that in a word, you know, I think the lesson I really try to impart is there's a high level of rigor that is always required in everything we do. Never let up. And I think I've learned. That a while ago, I guess, but that we are often, or quite frankly, always outresourced by opposing parties and big firms and governments and, and so while we may be outresourced, we should never be outworked. And that's, you know, something I always try to drill in everyone here who works here. I've learned over the years, you know, different ways of, of of continuing to punch over your weight, you know, like above your weight class. And and I think that's what our movement and our communities continue to do so effectively as well. Right. So so I really try to to continue to bring that into everything that we do.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's dive into some of our victories, our 2018 Canadian Human Rights Commission commission settlement with the Greater Toronto Airport Authority. And this was was a turning point for accessible air travel. Right. What strategic decisions inside arch made that success possible in your opinion?   Robert Lattanzio: Well, I really like this question. I'm going to begin with I thought.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You would. Yeah.   Robert Lattanzio: Well, I. Yeah. I mean, I think there's there's something here that Maybe this will come up later, but I, I, I want to start by talking about how, you know, it's easy for us to, to talk about you know, good decisions and litigation and strategy and so on. But it, it it always, you know, first and foremost comes down to our clients, right, persons with disabilities who come to us, who are in vulnerable situations, who are in crisis, who have a lot of a lot going on. Right. They're, they're they're not in in a position where you know, at times, you know, they feel they don't have choices, Places. But there is there is a level of of courage, right. And a level of, of strength that comes with this. Right. We couldn't do what we do if it not for our clients who come to us and, and, and put themselves through the rigors of what is, you know, litigation and and they do this, you know, not only on behalf of themselves, but do this for others. Right? They do this to help others across the province, across the country. And and you're one of those people. So thank you. I think it just needs to be stated, right, that we would never have, you know, all of these all of these decisions that law students read and, you know, and sometimes it becomes a little bit disconnected.   Robert Lattanzio: And I and I say this sometimes when I, when I lecture to, to law students, you know, various law schools and you know, there's a person behind that, right. There's a family behind that, and there are circumstances that are really difficult behind that. And as lawyers, we need to really understand that. We need to really factor that in. We need to really make sure that we are appreciating all of those factors as we develop our strategies, as we negotiate, as we do all the things that we do. Right. So that said, so you were our wonderful client in, in, in in that case, as you said. And, and I think I think also, you know, important to kind of think about how when we take on a test case you know, it's it's the result of a pretty lengthy, like, thorough process, you know, that assesses the merits of each case and evaluates the strategic impacts that the case may have. And that could be both positive and negative. I mean, we're always thinking about the negative. Maybe, you know, sometimes more than the positive, right? We we we have to take many factors into consideration. And, you know, it's includes our areas of practice, priority areas strategic priorities, our strategic plan, our board of directors, our communities or partners, projects and research that we might be doing.   Robert Lattanzio: So we try to have all of this interconnected. Right. And of course you know what we learned through all of our direct legal services with our clients with disabilities, you know, and and that's where, you know, and again, so we have clients who bring in, you know, issues that that really allow us to then bring forward these really important issues before an administrative tribunal or a court you know, gives us that opportunity to make arguments that we've been wanting to make and, and to hopefully move the needle. Right. Hopefully, you know, dismantle barriers that we had identified within within those particular sectors. So transportation in this case, you know, it continues to be a priority for us. We actually recently were successful at the Federal Court of Appeal in a case involving accessible air travel against Air Canada. So, you know, it continues to be an ongoing priority for us. And you know, in your case also raised very important issues. And, and that opportunity, right, to remove systemic barriers. And so I find myself going in a lot of different directions on this one. So I apologize, but I want to make another point. If you if you're okay with that.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Go ahead.   Robert Lattanzio: So so as you said, you know this was a settlement and and I'd like to talk about that a little bit. Just the importance of settlements, you know? I keep on talking about test cases and litigation generally, and we've talked about, you know, some important decisions like, like your website decision that that you started, you know, the podcast talking about and those are really important, you know, when a court pronounces on on an issue like this, you know and advances accessibility or advances equality in that way it's, you know, it's sort of the, the end goal of litigation, right? To some degree. But but I want to really focus on the importance of settlements as well. You know settlements can have just as seismic an impact on, on dismantling systemic barriers. And, you know, while more often than not, there are confidentiality clauses that prevent us from talking about them settlements can be negotiated to be, like, really pivotal in dismantling barriers. They're not just about personal or private remedies. They can really be an effective tool in targeting systemic issues and in targeting barriers. So just wanted to yeah, just wanted to, to kind of flag that and as lawyers, you know, we always work from the starting point of, well, what is in the best interest of our client, right? What is our client instructing us to do? And what do they want to get out of the litigation? And so, you know, as arch as well, like we always align the larger strategic consideration about how the litigation furthers the goal of equality barrier removal and full inclusion. And it could be that you know, negotiating a settlement, you know, may be the the way to effectively achieve, you know, that that goal right of the client? Not necessarily just having a decision. So again, for, you know, for the sort of advocacy work that we do, we always have to think about all the various ways and the various strategies to get us where ultimately we want to be.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, arch also played a very pivotal role in the 2019 passage of the Accessible Canada Act. What behind the scenes advocacy steps were most critical, and how did you keep community voices front and center during the legislative push?   Robert Lattanzio: Yeah. There's no doubt the passing of the Accessible Canada Act marked was. Well, it marked one of a number, I guess, of watershed moments for, for our movement in this country. And and again, you know, a testament to the work that you do, Donna to the work that others were doing. You know, I think this really was one, you know, one of a number of of, of moments in our history that we can point and really sort of think about, you know, the the, the leadership, you know, that that led to that, to those successes. Right. And, and the and the, the coming together as a movement, you know, that that made that possible. So our work on that was, was was multifaceted for sure. We certainly devoted tons of resources as, as, as you would imagine and as you did as well. So we wanted, we wanted to basically ensure you know, maybe three things. I can sort of bring it down to three things. We wanted to make sure that we were there to provide the technical expertise to assist with the advocacy efforts by our communities. We we also wanted to support and assist with the coalition building, you know, and building capacity amongst communities and, you know, ultimately creating spaces to bring people together, no matter the level of, of sophistication around law and legislative processes or no matter the disability language. You know, we have two official languages in Canada. And of course, we have a number of sign languages and geography. Right. It brought it brought so many of us together that that we otherwise wouldn't be together.   Robert Lattanzio: You know, if not for the ACA. And third, you know, we we also embarked on, you know, in the work that we normally do, which is work through our own submissions, you know, and at every opportunity, you know, meeting with, with MPs, meeting with our communities, meeting with senators drafting submissions, making oral submissions at every stage of it. So we, you know, we also did did our work in that way, you know, on behalf of our communities in that way. So some of the work, you know, included the one I would sort of point to first was very in-depth, detailed analysis of the first draft of the bill before it went to the second reading. And this is like a very, you know dense analysis of every provision of the bill, and the idea being that, you know, we really wanted to give our communities, the real audience here, our communities, to give them tools in, in sort of understanding the bill and what it meant and possible implications, implications on other things that, you know, maybe weren't as as clear. And it was it was sort of before we got into the recommendation side of things. I mean, we started thinking about recommendations, but we really wanted to make sure that there was this analysis in place, like a very detailed analysis. And that kind of came, you know, just to, to kind of you hook back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, the, the importance of relationships and relationship building.   Robert Lattanzio: And, you know, we we had conversations and the Council of Canadians with disabilities had asked arch, like, right at the, the onset to coordinate a group of disability rights lawyers from across Canada to develop that, that comprehensive legal analysis. So we we struck you know, essentially an advisory committee. And and so we were really trying to bring in people, you know, from, from the, the, the earliest possible opportunity. And, and so that that kind of started, you know, started the ball rolling for us. Anyway, the ball was already rolling. But for us, it was you know, starting that work with, with, of course, you know, the, the late, great you know, and, and wonderful Steve Estey, who we miss incredibly. And he at the time was the, the national coordinator of the CCD. So yeah, we brought in a lot of folks from across the country, like lawyers, you know, we were we we had this sort of like, lawyer panel and we worked with others like David, David Lepofsky. And again, you know, close with Steve and, and we wanted to ensure that our communities had an accurate understanding of what, what the bill was saying, you know, what the meaning and the impact of those provisions actually were like. That was really our first priority because we really wanted to create we wanted to create accessible spaces for people with disabilities across the country to to talk about the bill. But we wanted to make sure that they had the tools to do that.   Robert Lattanzio: So then we, you know, we also created other accessible materials breaking down breaking down certain elements of the bill. When we got deeper in the, you know, in the advocacy, we, we created different, you know, advocacy tools. We had you know, we had various different tools, plain language. We had open letters, you know, we we we basically were trying to, to engage communities in different ways, you know, and trying also at the same time, you know, trying to build some sort of momentum on certain recommendations and certain advocacy pieces and trying to bring create spaces ultimately, you know, with the goal to, you know, to have discussions to better understand, you know, certain positions and to make sure that we all had, you know, the information that we needed. So, so I'm not, you know, really talking about having one voice. Not at all, actually, to the contrary of that, you know, but I think you know, having positions and advocacy efforts that are based on, like, accurate, critical, thoughtful understandings, right? Like, I think, you know, as far as takeaways go for me, it really was like the importance of being properly briefed, you know, that rigorous analysis, having that accurate understanding of legal implications, like how important that was for communities because we wanted to make sure that, you know, whatever advocacy they're doing, you know, was, was grounded you know, on accurate information. And so that was was one of our, one of our main goals, you know, and I think there's just such a an importance in, you know, identifying those common points within communities, you know, and that allows to, to have those opportunities to start building strategies that support and align those common positions.   Robert Lattanzio: Right, and, and creating those spaces, those spaces to, to understand those positions that perhaps, maybe a little bit inconsistent or at odds and and develop strategies that can support you know ultimately the diversity of voices right. And the diversity of the issues. So I think there's so much to take away. I think as a movement, there's so much to take away from all of those advocacy efforts. You know, that that had occurred during, during that time. I think, again, you know I really want to underscore like, it was such a dynamic Experience, dynamic process. Like, there were there were as always, you know, a lot of different moving parts. But, you know, one of the things that that that struck me and there were, there were many. But I want to talk a little bit about the the Senate and the Senate Committee, the Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, which, which ultimately, reviewed the bill. At the Senate. There was incredible advocacy happening at the Senate as well. And traditionally, you know the Senate is is not always traditionally where, where you would sort of advocate for, you know, big changes to a bill, you know and on this bill, you know, we we found the Senate to be so receptive and they understood, you know, the concerns that our communities were making and that we were making that, you know, recommendations and concerns we were bringing to them.   Robert Lattanzio: And their recommendations, you know, included some very important amendments which ultimately were adopted. And again, you know, not not that common. And, and I think there's, you know, there's there's a lot to be learned by that. And you know, there's a lot of you know, there's a lot of work still to do, right? On the ACA. Right? Like, it hasn't stopped. But we we have a bill that you know, as, as always, you know, could have been stronger, but I think we as communities can, can sort of think about how we can directly sort of trace like the advocacy efforts to some of those really important amendments that occurred, you know, whether they occurred at the House or the ones that occurred at at the Senate level. You know, that really was a product of communities coming together on on particular issues in circumstances where maybe there was disagreement on some other issues, but there was a coalescing to some degree. Right. Like I, you know, as the movement went on, as, as the advocacy work went on which, which is, I think something that we, we as, as, you know, as communities and, and advocates need to kind of learn from and and remember, you know, and, and again, again, you know, celebrate the successes as well. Right. So yeah, I think, you know, to circle back definitely one of the watershed moments for our movement.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, arch handles both individual cases and systemic law reform work. How do you decide when a single complaint should become broader test case for national impact?   Robert Lattanzio: Well, when we take on a case maybe this goes to a reply that I shared earlier. We, you know, we think about a number of different factors and it stems from, you know, our understandings stem from what what we learn, you know, through our clients, through our work, through our experiences through our board through our communities our work, you know, with partners different projects, the issues that, you know, that our clients go through, all of our grassroots work, you know so all all of that basically gets kind of, like, mushed all together, you know, in this rigorous kind of process of selection for our test cases you know, which is, which is sort of this thorough, you know, we we we have to think about the merits of a case, but we also have to think about all these other kind of factors that go into whether this is a case that you know, that is within our mandate and, and, and that we that we are well suited for, you know, we have to think about our own professional and ethical obligations and so on and so forth. So as a systemic test case clinic, we you know, again, I mean, not to sound repetitive, but we we approach these legal issues from a holistic approach. And you know, I think the way we do that is really just to try and really understand the legal issue. Right. Like to really understand what's going on.   Robert Lattanzio: And, and that's a lot more than what it sounds. You know, that could be quite a bit of work. But I think that's your first starting point. And, and, and I can't imagine that not being it. Right. Because that's going to lead to some problems If you are in a situation where you, you know, we kind of get that wrong. Right, right. And so, you know, and what I mean by that is, is, is really understanding it from the different approaches, understanding, understanding the facts, understanding the intersectional pieces at play understanding those issues from all of our other work, you know, and, and, you know, we'll, we'll consult with experts, we'll consult with partners, we'll consult with communities. You know, we really will do, of course, our own research understanding the law, you know, behind those issues what the courts have said, what they what they may say, what they won't say. You know, what the jurisdictional issues are? I mean, all those things are are just baked into our process. I mean, you know, like any other you know, there needs to be that level of of assessment. But but I think, you know, really understanding what that legal issue is in the context of our mandate and the work we do and where our communities are at. You know, is the first step. And once we do that, you know, then we're able to kind of think about, okay, so now we fully understand what's really going on here or we, you know, or we think we do, you know and, and now we can think about, well, what would be the proper recourse.   Robert Lattanzio: And that may be, you know, a question of which, which form is more appropriate, you know, is a court is a tribunal, is it you know, it is is it a human rights case? Is it a charter case? Is it you know, a judicial review, like whatever it may be? But we would go beyond that, you know, and, and maybe, maybe litigation, you know, isn't the most effective recourse. Maybe it's not the right time. You know, maybe there is a component here of trying to resolve the issue through, you know, some, you know, maybe through law reform, maybe we can do some coalition building. Maybe it's it's a question of amending a particular provision that we think may be more effective to do through political channels and not, you know, legal ones. So there are, you know, those type of considerations that you know, that happen and, you know, and being really aware, I think another important piece here is feeling confident that we're really aware of what's going on around us, like really knowing our space. Right. So this may be an issue that another clinic is tackling or another you know, a fellow partner.   Robert Lattanzio: And so we really want to be cognizant of that. And maybe it's a question of supporting efforts that are already Ongoing. So those are all the type of things that we think through, you know, as well as and I should say, I think we have like 43 questions that we work through in our, in our in our tool, you know, that we use to, to kind of structure the, the work and the conversation and the assessments and so on. So there's a lot, you know, there's a lot there that we think through. So generally there are a lot of different factors that go into a case being developed and framed as a, as a test case. But, you know, there's one of those sayings, right? Like, you know, anything can be a test case in a way. I know that's not really accurate, but it really is about, you know, how you know, how one approaches it, right? And what what we want to do with it and ultimately what our client is wanting, you know, as an outcome. So those are all really important things that that get factored in. And of course, ultimately it's it's really about our client at the end of the day. And we just need to make sure that we are you know, getting clear instruction on what the the actual remedies are, what the outcomes are that the client is really seeking.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've argued matters all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada. Okay. For emerging, emerging disability rights lawyers listening in today. What's the most important courtroom skill that you have had to master?   Robert Lattanzio: I think I'm going to give you a short answer. I think my answers have been long winded. And if I was to break this down and it by no means is to be interpreted that and maybe I'll start with saying having opportunities. You know, if you're an emerging disability rights lawyer take every opportunity you can, right? Watch hearings. Get out there. I immerse yourself as much as you can. Jump on opportunities if you can. The more you do. Right. You know, it's it's it's an ongoing practice. It's a skill that you just keep on. You never, you know, you never get to a point where you can feel like, okay, you know, I'm done. So, like, working on oral advocacy skills, working on written advocacy skills. Those are critical. Absolutely. But I think if I was to choose the, the one thing and maybe you're not asking me to create a hierarchy here, but what comes to mind is the sort of connecting back to, you know, don't be at work. Right. Always be prepared for everything. Like be prepared for the probable, but also be prepared for the improbable. And I think that's the one thing that distinguishes us, a great lawyer from, you know, from from the rest. Right. It's courts expect you to be ready for everything.   Robert Lattanzio: And that means you're never done. You know, when you prepare and whether this is, you know, preparing for a hearing or you're preparing pleadings or you're getting your materials together or you're getting a motion together you need to constantly, you know, strive right for, right for, for the, the best possible you know, quality work that you can on behalf of your client. But it also means that you have to put in the work to really think through, like, all eventualities, all possibilities, and be ready for it. You know, be ready. Be ready for that question that you hope that will never be asked of you. Right. And it may never be asked, but you need to be ready. And and that and that comes through. And that also helps you feeling more confident and you know, and being more effective as an advocate in, in whatever, you know, whether it's mediation or whether or whether you're, you know, making submissions to the Supreme Court of Canada. It really is about putting in the work and being really thorough and really rigorous in your approach so that you feel like you have really canvassed every possible eventuality and you're ready for it, whatever is going to come your way. I think that would be top of top of my list.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now I know we're starting to run out of time, but I wanted to ask you this question so I can get it in. One of your flagship initiatives is the Respecting Rights program pairing Self-advocates with intellectual disabilities and legal Professionals. Can you share a story that captures its real world impact?   Robert Lattanzio: Oh, I'd love to. And I'm cognizant of the time here. If I can just maybe describe it just a little bit. So this is something that we, we started in 2011. We were really wanting to create with with Peter Park, who is a well-known self-advocate who's a co-founder of People First Canada. And did a lot of work with us. And we had we had a group of folks to really think through how we can do better in providing rights education to persons labeled with intellectual disabilities that were receiving developmental services in Ontario and a created this program that ultimately was traveling across the province and providing rights based sessions, but through arts based approaches and creative approaches and role playing and so on. And we were really trying to get at the you know, the folks that really weren't going to be coming to us with legal issues, the, you know, the the highly made, vulnerable and marginalized right of of communities. And I and I think we, you know, I think we succeed when we start to have people who are you know, we go to them whenever we can and when we have people to start building trust. And sometimes, you know, it's the we try to keep consistency.   Robert Lattanzio: And, you know, we have people who keep on coming to our sessions and we build trust, you know, we, we start to get to a point where they feel a little more comfortable, you know, to start talking about things that they're experiencing. And so, to answer your question a real world impact, I think the the, the one that comes to my mind, you know, and it's not just one, but it is when and, and and this is how we sort of gauge success of the program when we have people that, you know, might be coming to these sessions for, for months, if not years. And, and finally, you know, sort of make sort of contact, you know, and, and express whether it's through the group or, or or after the group you know, express that they want to talk to us a little bit about something that's going on and, and, you know, and, and, and that allows us to begin you know, having those more difficult conversations about what's happening in their lives. And sometimes those are not legal issues, you know and we were able to try to connect them, you know, to where they need to go. And sometimes they are, you know, and sometimes these are like really critical, important things that are happening in their lives.   Robert Lattanzio: And they are you know, through this program, sort of able to begin to talk it through. Right, and, and feel empowered enough to speak with, with a lawyer, which is pretty, you know, pretty difficult, right? It's pretty intimidating. And, you know and so having, having an opportunity like that to, to just start having those conversations and building those relationships, you know, to get to a point where we can start talking about how the law, you know, may or may not be be able to to sort of, you know, get the result they want. I mean, that, you know, and that could be, that could be a long a long process. But but a program like Respecting Rights, which has been so important to us, you know, has been a way for us to do outreach in communities that maybe we weren't able to do before. So it really is about building capacity within the community where there's, you know, essentially like there's peer mentoring that's really happening right through through this program. And, and they're able to break through in ways that we as lawyers really wouldn't be as nearly effective.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We have just a few minutes, but I would like to ask you, what are your final thoughts for the next generation of lawyers? What's your message?   Robert Lattanzio: My message? Well, I think I would say that We are all I think building a growing record of successes notwithstanding, you know, the many setbacks as well. Right? And that as communities and as advocates and as lawyers. Right. We are most effective when we collaborate and collectively work towards supporting our various advocacy objectives. We I think we we can not only take comfort in that, but but continue to use that as motivation and a reminder of how effective we can could collectively be. I think this doing this work, you know, it's it's difficult. It takes a toll. As you know, Donna you know, it's there. Yeah, there are the successes and there are a lot of setbacks. I think a recent example. If I have a minute here, just to to signal this we had, as you know, you know, we we had the United Nations second and third review of Canada's implementation of the convention on the Rights of Persons with disabilities. And 53 groups across Canada came together. They drafted a parallel report, and a smaller group met with the UN committee in Geneva to report on the on Canada's failures, essentially on certain provisions of the CRPD and the result in March was a really positive concluding observations which is another way to say recommendations from the United Nations Committee on the Rights of persons with disabilities, and they offered really strong recommendations and critical observations related to to some CRPD articles or to to most of them including, for example, the recommendations to repeal track two of medical assistance in dying provisions and and that Canada should withdraw its declaration under regarding article 12 and reservation a whole host of of really important recommendations are are in that document. And, and I think it's, you know, it's a good reminder, right. What the results of collective action by disability groups across Canada, you know, can can be right working together toward a clear strategic objective, you know, can can have some really powerful results working together.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And that's a message. And we are almost all out of time. I wanted to thank you for being here. It has been a great educational session for me personally. I've enjoyed working with art and I continue to work with art. And one more sentence from you.   Robert Lattanzio: Well, it is always an absolute privilege and pleasure to work with you, Donna. And I just want to thank you again for this wonderful opportunity to speak with you.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much, Rob. And I'm sure we will be in touch again. Thank you.   Robert Lattanzio: Thank you. Donna.   Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care now. Bye bye. Bye bye.   Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.

🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #41: Interview with Paul Jorgenson, Assistant Director, Stakeholder Mobilization, Elections Canada | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA | September 16, 2025 https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-09-16-2025   In this episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes Elections Canada changemaker Paul Jorgenson for a candid look at how accessibility is woven into Canada's federal elections. The two revisit their first collaboration at the 2019 coast-to-coast disability town halls and unpack why Elections Canada grounds its services in lived experience, from Canadians with disabilities to Indigenous communities, youth, newcomers, and electors experiencing homelessness. Jorgenson explains his remit as Assistant Director for Stakeholder Mobilization, a role that is busiest between elections as his team builds partnerships, runs consultations, audits programs, and keeps the agency ready to deliver whenever a vote is called.   The conversation turns practical, spotlighting the Inspire Democracy toolkits for registering and voting, working at a federal election, and running as a candidate, available in accessible formats (including ASL/LSQ video) and developed with stakeholder input. Listeners get clear guidance on options that fit different needs: voting at a local Elections Canada office to avoid crowds; using Braille or large-print aids; vote-at-home services for homebound electors; and voting by mail, plus a simple "ask, listen, do" service model and a live-operator hotline to resolve accessibility issues on the spot. Jorgenson also reflects on trust: while Elections Canada remains highly regarded, confidence can dip as disability severity increases; his closing advice is to carry a high expectation of service and make a personal plan to vote.   TRANSCRIPT   Podcast Commentator: Greetings Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information. As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles. She just wants to make things better than possible.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. In July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest. A change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we're trying to build. Paul Jorgensen of Elections Canada, welcome to our podcast.   Paul Jorgenson: Donna, thank you so much for having me. It's a huge pleasure to be here.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So let's start off here by question one. Paul, you and I first crossed paths during election Canada's coast to coast disability town hall in 2019. Could you start by explaining why Elections Canada felt that it was important to hear directly from Canadians with disabilities, and what the agency learned from those conversations?   Paul Jorgenson: Yeah, I'd be happy to. It's true, actually. We we crossed paths in 2019. But I've actually been familiar with you for quite a bit longer than that. Your landmark court case really was very impactful to me personally. And I've, I've, I've been an admirer of yours for, you know, the nine years between that court case and when we actually first met there. So even though that was the first time we had crossed paths I was I was very familiar and very familiar with you and your work, and I was so tickled when I learned that I was going to get a chance to work with you in 2019, when we first, when we first met. And so yeah. So to answer the question Elections Canada is a really rare organization in a number of different ways. And I was you know, I have lots of experience working as a, as a consultant, as a web developer. I have experience in the private sector, public sector and nonprofit sector. And to be honest, I have never met an organization anywhere that is as truly committed to having its to hearing from partners and stakeholders and the people we serve as Elections Canada.   Paul Jorgenson: And it is really baked into the DNA of this organization to have our services and have our work be based on the lived experience of the people we serve. And that includes Canadians with disabilities. So, you know, my team we work extensively with people with disabilities as well as indigenous people young people and new Canadians electors experiencing homelessness all kinds of other electors who face barriers. And our whole goal is to understand the barriers that they face and understand the barriers that they face and to take action to do whatever we can to tear those barriers down. So it's, a Y. Elections Canada felt it was important is quite simply because the agency has made it a priority to hear directly from Canadians with disabilities. And, and we see this not just at my level, but up to the highest levels of the agency. Our CEO, the chief electoral officer of Canada, gave a technical briefing yesterday where he mentioned the importance of accessible voting. On numerous occasions. So this truly is something that is felt in Elections Canada from top to bottom, left to right.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I will certainly add that this has been a really, really unique organization for me to work with. I've enjoyed every minute of it, and I want to congratulate you and your team for having continued to do this. Well, good for you.   Paul Jorgenson: Thanks, Donna.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're welcome. So since then, you have moved into the role of Assistant director for stakeholder mobilization. And in plain language, what does that job involve for one week to the next, especially between elections when most people assume that nothing is really happening behind the scenes?   Paul Jorgenson: Yeah, it's a great question. I get asked that often. You know, sort of. Oh, you work for Elections Canada? Well, what do you do when there's not an election? Yeah. And with with my work and the and the work that my team does, we're we're sort of a bit of an odd duck as far as the agency is concerned, because in many ways, we're actually busier between elections than we are during elections. That's not to say we're not very busy during an election, but what we've heard from our partners yourself included. But from a lot of our partners, is that the types of audiences that we are looking to reach, you know, people that face barriers, you know, indigenous partners, people with disabilities, you know, all of these partners that the you know, they're all different. They all have unique considerations and different barriers. But one thing that unites them, one sort of thread that connects all of these things together, is that they all have been very clear to us that we need to be engaging them well in advance of the election. You can't just show up when the election starts and say, all right, here you go. Here's your your Braille template or here's your whatever. We they really insist on the importance of doing that engagement long in advance so that people know about their democratic rights and people know about the tools and services available for them. And people know about you know, the different options in terms of voting times and things like that so that they can make a plan to vote, because these electors have just as much a democratic right to vote and to run as a candidate in office.   Paul Jorgenson: But, you know, they might need just a bit more time to plan life stuff around it. And so that's why my team's actually engaged throughout the electoral cycle. If it's not in the direct administration of, you know, helping to deliver an election and things like that, then what we're doing is reaching out and building partnerships with key Interveners and key organizations who are willing to work with us to break down these barriers, whether it be through consultations or whether it be through establishing contracts to you know, share information and accessible formats with their audiences and you know, deliver workshops or attend events or do other sort of outreach initiatives. So, you know, one of the things that's great about my job is that it's not the same thing from one week to the next. It's, you know, we're always busy. We're always working hard. But you know, after an election, my job involves a lot of, you know, retrospective. Did we actually meet the objectives that we set out to meet? Is our program actually delivering the results for people with disabilities for you know, indigenous electors for all of our other stakeholder audiences that that we have intended and what can we do better? And then there's, you know, setting up these partnerships and then there's delivering on it. So there's really sort of a, a bit of a cycle. And it's not necessarily the same from week to week, but there is that sort of common Thread that that is sort of a throughput from one election to the next.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The election is now over since April, and now you're busy again until the next election, which is should be, what, 2029?   Paul Jorgenson: Well, I mean, I wish that we knew the date of the next the next election. The, the parliamentary system means that, you know, the government you know, an election could be called at any time if the government loses a confidence vote or asks for the governor general to dissolve parliament. So you know, Elections Canada's mandate is to be ready at any moment to deliver an election. So it's, you know, if if we go the full you know, four years, then yes, it would be around that time. But we have to actually make sure that we're ready well, before then, just in case there's a there's an election earlier.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow. So you and I have been collaborating on voter confidence toolkits aimed at Canadians who are blind, visually impaired, or have other disabilities. Can you walk our audience through what those toolkits include and how they can get them to to how they can get them to into accessible formats?   Paul Jorgenson: Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to. So the the toolkits are we have three toolkits actually, and each one is intended to break down key barriers to a different type of electoral participation. So at Elections Canada, we define Find electoral participation as not just registering and voting. Obviously, registering and voting is is the biggest one. It's the one people think about. But we also consider running as a candidate in a federal election as a type of a really very meaningful, important type of electoral participation. And so we have a toolkit on running as a candidate, breaking down barriers on how to run as a candidate in a federal election. We've got a toolkit on working at a federal election. Elections Canada is we we recognize and are committed to trying to have our workforce represent the Canadians that we serve. You know, a lot of people don't know that every federal election we become the biggest employer in the country, and we hire more than 200,000. I think, you know, in the last election, we hit 230,000 people hired Retired in order to deliver that election. And we need and want them to reflect the full diversity of the Canadian population. So my team has a toolkit specifically on this recruitment piece to help demystify the process of working at a federal election. And we go to different communities and we we, we promote this and try to encourage our audiences to submit their application, come help their fellow Canadians you know, to vote and help us deliver the election. And then we've got a third toolkit that's on registering and voting you know, sort of the big one, the, the, the obvious one that everybody thinks about there, you know, and each of these are going to be a little bit different because, you know, it's a very, as you can imagine, a very different endeavor to you know, set out to go and you know, run in a federal election versus working in a federal election versus, you know, registering and voting in a federal election.   Paul Jorgenson: But you know, these toolkits are all available on our program's website, which is Inspire Democracy. And you can just go to the act section. It's you know, learn, act, connect, and you can just go to act. And the toolkits are right there. It's you'll be pleased to know, Donna, that Donna, that the the website is fully wcaG compliant fully wcaG 2.1 compliant. And it's actually it actually exceeds the standard of your, your federal court case there. So it's we really work with a really fantastic web developer team at Elections Canada. And they're very deeply committed to ensuring that that this is accessible. And we also have made these toolkits accessible in other formats, including for for deaf electors in ASL and Lsq format. The video format as well. So that's another really helpful thing. And it's also available in English and French. Because we've heard from a lot of stakeholders that those formats are helpful for people with learning disabilities or people with you know, traumatic brain injury. It can be helpful to have a video format where you can sort of have the information come in that way, pause, walk away from it, come back. So we offer it in multiple formats and multiple styles. And the toolkits themselves were developed in consultation with our stakeholders, including people representing people with disabilities.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have to smile to myself because I remember a few months ago, or even last year, you were trying to convince me to run as a candidate, and I kept telling you, no way.   Paul Jorgenson: I stand by that. I still think you should. I think you'd be a fantastic candidate, Donna. I think the running is in a federal election toolkit would be a great place to start. I think you'd do absolutely phenomenal work.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. Let's move on. The advisory Group for Disability Issues, where I served reports regularly on gaps we still see. So can you give listeners an example of feedback from that group that has turned into a policy or operational change?   Paul Jorgenson: Yeah I can give you a couple if you like actually. Sure. So one really meaningful change that took place in 2018, 2019. So based on feedback that we'd heard from the advisory Group for Disability Issues, or AGD, as we often call it. In short we proposed to Parliament. We asked Parliament to amend the Canada Election Act which they thankfully did. They agreed to our recommendation to add in not one, but two different expense expense claims that are valid for candidates running for office. So we were able, with that legislative change, to offer two different accessibility expenses, one for candidates themselves who have a disability and who will incur some sort of you know, personal expenses related to their disability in the course of running for a campaign that could be anything from you know, the need for a sign language interpreter to you know, if they need to have you know, level access modifications made to you know, an office location to, you know, you name it, right? That was a new disability related expense that we have offered since 2019 to all candidates with disabilities. And that is those expenses incurred are reimbursable up to 90%. And moreover, those expenses are not covered under the the campaign spending threshold because they're related to the candidate's disability themselves. So I think that's really frankly, game changer. And and then that that's not the end of the story that's also partnered with Second Accessibility Expense, which is for any campaign, regardless of whether it's you know, the person, the candidate themselves has a disability or not. If there's a campaign that wants to make their campaign more accessible again, for example, you know, could be installing, you know, some sort of level access you know ramps or whatever for their campaign offices.   Paul Jorgenson: Or it could be hiring sign language interpreter to animate events or debates or it could be to undertake an accessibility audit of their websites or, you know, developing communication products and alternate formats. You know, you name it. Those are also reimbursable up to the 90% level for for those things, too. So, you know, I see these as real a real game changers for people with disabilities who want to run for office. And I can give another one that I was that I was personally involved in. So you know, people might have heard of the longest ballot. Oh, yes. Thing that happened now a few different times. And this you know, sort of made news you know, in August with the the by election in Alberta in battle River Crowfoot and then also in the general election in April in the Carleton riding. But it's happened elsewhere in previous electoral districts elsewhere in the country. And it's been going on for, for a number of years. And in December 2022, back in my previous role, when I was heading up the consultation team at Elections Canada I oversaw a consultation with our partners On how we should be adapting the ballot design. What would be the most accessible ballot design options for large ballot situations where we have an unusually large number of candidates? And I'm pleased to say that the feedback that we received from that consultation shaped our our approach to these situations for a number of years and still forms the basis of our policy recommendations on how to handle these situations.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Oh my gosh. Now, voter registration is often the first contact that a citizen has with Elections Canada, right? Yep. What features are in place to ensure that the online registration process works smoothly for screen reader users and for people who rely on adaptive technology.   Paul Jorgenson: Yeah, it's an excellent it's an excellent question. So what I can say is when we were first rolling out well, shortly after, anyway, we were rolling out the, the voter registration we undertook, again, a very in-depth consultation with I think actually, you might have even been in that user group. Donna, you can correct me if I'm wrong in that, but certainly it was. Yeah. There you go. So my memory my memory is pretty good there. So yeah, that would have been 19 I think. Yeah. We did do an audit of that feature. So this is a feature that we offer on our website, and it's very popular during an election, and it's where people can check their voter registration status. And if they find that they are not registered, they can they can register to vote using this this tool. And anyway, so we undertook an audit where we, we tested it, we had certain tasks that people were asked people, screen reader users were asked to complete, and they identified what they were able to complete with ease, what they were able to complete with difficulty and what they were not able to complete.   Paul Jorgenson: And we took that feedback. And we have made improvements and changes and modifications to the voter registration service based on the feedback that we received from those user group tests and from that, we've continued to do user group testing. In fact, we've expanded our use of this type of user group. In our web development, but also in our other technological initiatives that we've we've undertaken in order to make sure that, you know, it's not just doing a wcaG audit. You know, although we do have a really fantastic web team. You know, I was a web accessibility consultant for a number of years, and our web team led by Mark Lynn really is one of the best that I've encountered in terms of their commitment to web accessibility. So I just need to give them a shout out. But even though they're doing really phenomenal work on that, we don't rely just on that. We do go and do this extra step of consulting and doing the user testing to make sure it's as accessible as we can make it for for screen reader users.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's great. That's great. Now, some rural and remote communities lack accessible polling places. What creative solutions such as mobile wholesale, mobile poles or home visit voting are being expended to each electors who you know are travel, who find who cannot travel easily. Do you want to repeat the question, or are you okay?   Paul Jorgenson: No, I think I'm okay. I think I've got a I think I got a good understanding of of what's being asked there. So there it's this is one of those really really interesting challenges that a lot of people who who you know, aren't necessarily familiar with it, they might not necessarily realize how how challenging it is. Right? You know, the the elections Canada's mission is to ensure that Canadians can exercise their democratic rights to run as a candidate and vote in federal elections. Nowhere in that mission Does it say unless you live in a rural or remote community or unless you are not disabled, we really do take the we really do take it seriously that we want it to be all Canadians, you know, who are over 18. You know, these are their democratic. These are their human rights. These are their democratic rights to do so. The agency has a really strong commitment to you know, offering this. And we accomplished this in several ways. I would say the, the most popular and probably the easiest for many electors, but it doesn't work for everybody is mail in voting. So mail in voting is a is a really really valuable option for a lot of people. So once the election gets called, you can apply to vote by mail. We send you a you know, a mail in ballot kit, and you fill it out and then you send it back to us, and then we we count your vote in your electoral district. So you never need to leave your home for this one. Now that's a really great option for some people, but not for everybody. You know, some people who have difficulty with dexterity might not work very well for them because you do need to sign your name, and you do need to write in the name of the candidate you're voting for.   Paul Jorgenson: So that might not be a good option for them. Also, for some people who are blind or partially sighted, it may or may not work for them either. So it's, you know, it's a good option. It's a popular option, but it's not necessarily one that works for everybody. Right. So an alternative option that we do offer and we a lot of people don't know that this exists, but for homebound electors, we do offer vote at home service. This is limited to homebound electors. And you can request you can apply for that. This is typically you know, a last resort. But but that is something else that we offer. And for rural and remote communities, one of the things that we've been you know, one of the things we've always been doing is, you know, still locating polling locations in rural and remote communities. But one of the things we've been starting to do more in the most recent election is looking at ways to significantly expand our service offering for rural and remote communities. So the CEO, the chief electoral officer set this as one of his priorities. And he spoke really eloquently about this in his press conference just after the the election was launched. And because of the adaptive measures that we put in place, You know, some of these rural and remote communities have very few electors. And so they don't necessarily need a full, you know, four days of advance voting, for example. I remember talking to one returning officer in Newfoundland, where he had one community in his electoral district that had I can't remember whether it was 4 or 6 electors.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.   Paul Jorgenson: You know, 4 or 6 electors. And you know, they don't need four days to you know, to have all 4 or 6 of them vote, but they have a legitimate expectation that they will have their Democratic franchise respected, their democratic rights to vote, be respected, and we have to serve them. And so we've been starting to pilot more adaptive advanced polling options. So you know, whether some communities would be open to having you know, a different schedule of advanced polls. That's another thing that we've started doing, and it's actually proven quite successful. It allowed us to significantly expand our the number of communities, especially indigenous communities, that we were able to reach in the last in the last election. So those are just some of the creative solutions that we've we've deployed to help tackle this. It's really challenging. Problem of, you know, because country is so vast, you know, and yes, all these people.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Trust in institutions is fragile. Worldwide. Worldwide. Sorry. How does Elections Canada measure voter confidence among people with disabilities? And what indicators tell you that confidence is rising or that more work is needed?   Paul Jorgenson: Well, this is actually one of those things where both are true confidence. This is sort of one of those counterintuitive things. But a lot of people would be shocked to know you know, if you had to guess, when was Canadians highest level of confidence in the administration of electoral system recorded in public opinion data. A lot of people would be shocked to hear that it was just after the 2021 election.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.   Paul Jorgenson: We don't yet have data on the 2020 election that happened this April. But a lot of people, you know, we sort of were consumed by the news and it's often bad news stories. And so we, we often take a negative view of things. But Elections Canada remains one of the most trusted institutions in the country, according to public opinion data. And we do have some evidence that, you know, the evidence is a bit mixed. We have some evidence that suggests maybe a bit of a decline in confidence commensurate with all public institutions. But we also have some evidence that suggests that confidence in Elections Canada actually increases over the course of an election the more they interact with us. So we're still we're still trying to, you know, get more information on the data that we have available. But certainly, I'm encouraged by the data that I see about the confidence. But that said there is still more work that is needed. And specifically on the question of you know, electors with disabilities, we do have some data that show that as the severity of disability increases among electors, they do tend to be a bit less likely to have a very high level of trust in election results, or to say that Elections Canada ran the election. Well or have a great deal of confidence in Elections Canada as, as an independent agent of parliament. So it's sort of one of those things where I think even though confidence is very high in Elections Canada, there is still more work to be done. And that's you know, in large part the work that my team's doing. You know, we don't want to we want to earn the confidence. We don't want to just, you know tell people they should have confidence in us. We want to create that. We we deserve their confidence.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So for anyone listening who faces a barrier on voting day, what is the fastest way to get help or lodge an accessibility complaint so that the issue Shoe can be resolved promptly.   Paul Jorgenson: So the absolute fastest way, bar none, is to talk to a person who works at the pole. So talk to a polling clerk. Talk to the if there's an arrow there, an assistant returning officer, or if there's you know, a pole supervisor there to ask to speak to them. And they are the fastest and best suited to give that quick, immediate service and resolve the complaint properly. Our poll workers are all trained on this model. That it sounds so simple. It sounds so self-evident, but I am I am shocked by how nevertheless, revolutionary and rare it is. But we train all of our people on what we call the ask, listen, do model. We ask somebody if there's anything that we can do to help them if they want any help. We listen to what they have to say. You know, if they say you know. No, I don't need any help. You know, we don't want to assume that a person needs any help. We ask, we listen if they say no. Actually, I would like help. I'd like you to do this. Then you do the thing they ask you to do. So really, it's it's it's simple, but it's revolutionary. So that is the absolute fastest and best way to to, to get help. If you encounter any sort of difficulty in voting on Election Day or at advanced polls there, I should say that people should have a high degree of confidence that we will meet their accessibility needs.   Paul Jorgenson: So I don't want to scare people away. I want people to go into the poll you know, with that high degree of confidence. People should have that high degree of confidence that they they will have their needs met and that the poll workers will be there to to, to, to, to be problem solvers and to and to resolve those issues. But in the event that this doesn't work, you know, for whatever reason, something's happened and the, you know, the poll supervisor or the assistant returning officer or whomever is not able to resolve the problem quickly on the spot, then we do have A18 hundred number that we invite people to call us. And I can report that it's a live operators. It's not an AI chatbot or anything like that. These are human beings. On the other end of that call and they will log any accessibility complaints. And if people are wondering whether those complaints just sort of disappear into the ether after the election. I can assure them that they do not. My team personally gets forwarded many of these, and we you know, I personally jumped in to resolve issues for electors. And my team has done so as well. And we also do track overall statistics of that. So it absolutely is something that we look at and we factor into our retrospectives and our learnings after each election.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have one final question for you, Paul. And zooming out, if you could leave our audience with one action that they can take right now to prepare for the next federal election, especially for those who have never voted before, what would that be and how can Elections Canada support them on that journey?   Paul Jorgenson: Yeah, that's a great question. Can I suggest both an action and maybe like a mindset that might go complement each other very well. And the mindset is sort of what I was just saying, which is that I would like people to have to have a reasonable expectation that, you know, it is reasonable for them to expect that they will receive a high degree of service that meets their needs when they go to vote. So I don't want people to feel like like they can't vote. I want people to feel like this is this is for everybody. This is for for you. So please do you know, come in with that high expectation. It is. It is not a burden. It is not a difficult we want to serve you. So, you know, that's the first bit. And the one action I can say you know, everybody's going to be different. Everybody's going to have their own different needs and whatnot. But generally speaking, what I advise people to do is to make a plan to vote, you know, and I sort of talked a little bit about how there's different voting options available. You know, not all of them. Some of them are really ideal for some people, and some of them are really suboptimal for others. And but between the different options we, we do have sort of something for everybody. You know, some people have you know difficulty in large crowds. So for those people, I often recommend that they go and vote at the local Elections Canada office. A lot of people don't know that yes, you can vote at advance polls, but you can vote at almost any point in time during the election period just by showing up to your local Elections Canada office, and you can vote that way.   Paul Jorgenson: That's a really good option for people who have difficulties with crowds. You know, using the the braille template and the braille list of candidates or the large print list of candidates you know, to help identify the candidate you want to vote for. Those are really excellent options that are available on Election Day. You know, so I really recommend those for other people. Vote at home is a really viable option for homebound electors. Vote by mail is another really great option for you know, people who don't have dexterity issues and people who are able to sign their name to different documents and, you know, things like that. So, you know, there's different options for different people. But I would recommend that people make a plan to vote. And if they want help in making that plan, they can go to Inspire Democracy and check out our toolkit on registering and voting. It has information on accessible voting options available as well as our service offering. You know, you can always ask a poll worker if you want help voting. It's not often an option that everybody wants because they want to be able to vote independently and anonymously. But if you do need help, that is another option. And then that poll worker actually has to swear a solemn oath to forever keep your vote secret. So, you know, lots of different options available. And I think it's just if people make a plan as to which one's going to be the best for them, which one's their preferred option? We can absolutely accommodate them.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you have any final thoughts to share with our listeners before I let you go?   Paul Jorgenson: No, I mean, I think this is really fantastic. Donna, thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate getting a chance to to share this message. You know, maybe if, you know, if I can give get one last plug to our website. Inspire democracy. If people are interested in you know, more information on registering and voting, they can find it there. But, you know, like I said, if people want to work at a federal election we are looking for workers. You know, the average income for a person who is blind in this country is under $20,000, according to Statistics Canada. And you know, we pay a good salary. It's not. It's not minimum wage. It's well above minimum wage. And and we are actively looking for people. You can submit your resume you know, even outside of election periods there. And we keep it on file. And likewise, if you're interested in potentially running as a candidate, you know, Donna if you're looking at candidate, we've got our toolkit one there that's just right there sitting for you. And I encourage you to consult it.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Would you be my campaign manager then?   Paul Jorgenson: I would need to. I would need to quit Elections Canada if I did that. I can't.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no, we can't have that. No. Oh, dear. It was a pleasure having you, Paul. And you know, if you think at any time there is something you wish to share with our listeners, please reach out, let us know, and we'd love to have you back again.   Paul Jorgenson: Sounds great.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, great. Thank you very much. And have a great afternoon.   Paul Jorgenson: Thank you. Donna.   Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye.   Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at [email protected]. Until next time.