Pretty Psych

Megan Owen, MAR is a Pastoral Trauma Counselor and Chaplain, certified in crisis response, CPE, trauma modalities (including EMDR and DNMS), suicidality and bereavement. Megan offers a unique perspective into the masculine and feminine wounds causing divides among humans. She is the owner of Mountain City Christian Counseling and comes to us with 15 years of experience working with the traumatized.    Key Takeaways: With all that is going on in the world, Megan offers encouragement to all those who may be struggling and/or are disheartened by events and news that is causing doubt and fear.  Megan reintroduces a holy and sacred practice, Sacred Circles, where all hold space for one another and connections are made. Notable Quotes: "I see trauma baked into systems. I see fear masquerading as loyalty. But I don't want anyone to mistake that aerial view for neutrality, because I know my assignment. I stand with survivors. I stand with women. I will always stand with the victims of abuse. And I can't contort myself into a false balance when harm is this clear." — Megan Owen "The circle is a connotation of equality. There's space for everyone at this table, and there's no 'leader' We are space-holders when it's our turn, but nobody is in authority over somebody else, and we all have chances to share." — Megan Owen "We are taught to be quiet and submissive, so this causes enmity between men and women, but it can also cause enmity between women and women. We create a fictional and misdirected world of scarcity rather than realize that we are all different and bring different things to the table." — Megan Owen "When women find ourselves powerless to identify abusers and protect ourselves from abusive broken masculinity, it is because we have inside ourselves the critical voice of a patriarchal male putting us down, diminishing us, making us feel inferior and wrong." — Megan Owen Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com If you are interested in Sacred Circles, visit Store Learn more about the Patriarchy and its effects: https://inmysacredspace.com/patriarchy/  Megan has completed Circle Training with Sora Schilling: The Circle Way at www.thecircleway.net  MEGAN: (0:03) This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire (to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself.  MEGAN: (1:11) Hi, Megan Owen here. Welcome to Pretty Psych. I am the owner of Mountain City Christian Counseling, and I'm so glad that you tuned in to listen today. With everything going on right now, I have really been profoundly moved by the courage of survivors across the world, but also deeply affected by what is unfolding in front of me with the Epstein files, not because I'm fragile, but because I sit with survivors of all different types of abuse every single day. So this is not political to me. It is not personal, but it is clinical, and it is sacred. There is some rage in me right now, but the rage feels holy. When you spend your life listening to women describe exploitation, coercion, grooming, intimidation, when you hold the aftermath in your office week after week, when you've worked with survivors as long as I have, I can't look at headlines and just see entertainment. I can't look at headlines and just see politics. I feel it in my body. And watching people defend abusers, minimize exploitation, mock victims, or protect power at the expense of the vulnerable, it is not just disappointing, it is morally revolting. When I take the aerial view that I often talk to my clients about, I see brokenness everywhere. I see wounded masculine. I see wounded feminine. I see struggles for power. I see the deep hell of narcissism. I see corruption that transcends party lines. MEGAN: (3:03) I see trauma baked into systems. I see fear masquerading as loyalty. But I don't want anyone to mistake that aerial view for neutrality, because I know my assignment. I stand with survivors. I stand with women. I will always stand with the victims of abuse. And I can't contort myself into a false balance when harm is this clear. Carrying this isn't easy. Some days it's hour by hour. I stop, I process, I grieve, I regulate, I accept, and then rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. But this is the cost of bearing witness. Some rage corrodes. Some rage purifies. Mine is not hatred, but it is refusal to normalize exploitation, refusal to excuse power protecting itself, refusal to abandon the ones whose stories I carry. So I'm trying to tend my inner fire carefully. And one of the things that is coming out of that is this idea to bring sacred circles back into the community of Mountain City.  MEGAN: (4:23) So we had this beautiful, beautiful circle of women. This is our little middle finger to the evils of the patriarchy, where we were sharing our stories, and we were caring for each other, and we were holding space. And honestly, I couldn't maintain it anymore just because of my caseload. I will take as many survivors as I can. And we were having the sacred circles on Sunday nights, and I just couldn't manage it anymore. So now that I have brought on some new coaches, we believe that we have the bandwidth to reopen this beautiful, beautiful community that we were so enjoying and loving. And it was encouraging. It was deep. It was holy. We had tears. We had rage. We had joy. Circles are an ancient, ancient practice that we've sort of let go. And sadly, women's Bible studies and women's circles within the church community have almost turned into an upholding of the patriarchy, and they've become male-centered. And so we've missed out on these beautiful cycles of women's lives, and seasons, and stages, and mothering, and caring for one another that a lot of our ancestors had. And so we here at Mountain City have been about the back. It's a lot of what we do at our retreat, which I'm so excited we filled all 21 spots already, and we'll open it up for even more women next year.  MEGAN: (6:09) But in the meantime, I'd like to reintroduce sacred circles as a very real possibility for being able to honor the sacred inside of us, the imago dei, the image of God in all women. When we meet together, we welcome each other like long-lost relatives. We allow space for people to add in their greetings, and we get quiet, and we remove all distractions, and we try to create something that feels safe and comfortable, free from interruptions, a sanctuary, a place where we can fully immerse ourselves in the experience without distractions. Of course, always leaving room for the baby, or the pet, or whomever, whatever the needs are. Then we have these agreements that we go through. We agree to hold what is shared in confidentiality. The second agreement is that we come to the circle with no expectations. We all are coming here for a reason, so we trust in what we each bring to the table. And again, it's a circle. The circle is a connotation of equality. There's space for everyone at this table, and there's no "leader". We are space holders when it's our turn, but nobody is in authority over somebody else, and we all have chances to share. We've all experienced receiving feedback that wasn't asked for, so the third agreement is we don't give one another feedback unless asked. We honor one another at the edge of a chair. We celebrate when it calls for celebration, and we weep with those who weep. MEGAN: (8:03) So there's no fixing or advice-giving, and then what we do is we speak with intention. We listen with attention, and we tend to the well-being of the circle. If you're like me, I have just been absolutely revolted by women turning on women, especially in the news lately, you know, abandoning the sisterhood, betraying the sisterhood. It's something that I just can't abide by, probably due to my own experiences of not feeling like I had my sisters on my side when I was going through the worst of everything in my life, and feeling as though they were taking the sides of the the cruelty of the men in my life, and so I've kind of made it my mission to uphold the sisterhood and to bring the image of God back into the beauty of what we can have together as sisters when we honor each other. Actually, the patriarchy is what has made sisterhood so incredibly difficult. There's a female shadow side that comes with the patriarchy, and it's just a wounded feminine. It's unhealed. It's all unhealed masculine and feminine and a misunderstanding of who we are in God's image, but simply put, there are parts of women that have been exiled or banished because they've been considered to be unfeminine or sinful. Many people bring all of their parts into the circle, but some of us are still working on this, so typically the shadow side of women appears as jealous, competitive, passive-aggressive or resentful, and this is because we have often been taught that women are to be small, invisible, with no sense of adventure or leadership. MEGAN: (9:57) We are taught to be quiet and submissive, so this causes enmity between men and women, but it can also cause enmity between women and women. We create a fictional and misdirected world of scarcity rather than realize that we are all different and bring different things to the table. I want us to always be honoring each other, so we focus a lot in sacred circles on this because each of us is unique and we all have our own gifts to bring to the table. Patriarchy can also penetrate the psyches of women, conditioning many of us to agree with and embody patriarchal values, so just as a man is not automatically patriarchal just by virtue of being a man, a woman by virtue of being a woman is not precluded from being patriarchal as well, or as Tia Levings says, carrying water for the patriarchy. As a white woman who has been brought up in a patriarchal society, I know all too well how I can be dazed by my conditioning. I know how easily many of us can be impressed by the patriarchy's black and white absolutism and dogmatic self-assurance and how easy it is to be intimidated into giving up our power to a patriarchal authority figure and then relying on him to tell us what's right and wrong. MEGAN: (11:29) When women find ourselves powerless to identify abusers and protect ourselves from abusive broken masculinity, it is because we have inside ourselves the critical voice of a patriarchal male putting us down, diminishing us, making us feel inferior and wrong. This insidious shadow masculine within us agrees with the abusive behavior of the patriarchal men we encounter in our lives. We then align ourselves with the worldview of our abuser or our oppressor. This is why some of us women end up championing abuse leaders, abusive leaders, and supporting dogma that goes against our own equality, self-sovereignty, and safety as women. And as a consequence, we end up embracing the very beliefs that disrespect women, endanger women's lives, and diminish women's worth. There are many ways in which a woman becomes patriarchal, but I will quickly mention four main patterns that many of us are particularly susceptible to in the hope that our becoming conscious of these tendencies will empower us to transform them. MEGAN: (12:51) Number one, women who embody a patriarchal type of authority. The first way in which a woman becomes patriarchal is by completely disowning her identity as a woman and becoming one of the boys. This is a strategy to avoid belonging to a group that is considered inferior and subjected to discrimination and sexism. MEGAN: (13:18) Number two, women who become submissive to the shadow masculine. The second way in which a woman becomes patriarchal is by accepting a position of inferiority and becoming subservient to the patriarchal masculine. She loses her power, her sense of self, and her better judgment, abdicating it all to a patriarchal authority in order to receive recognition and validation of herself by winning his approval. This is insidious. It is outsourcing our needs and placing them into the hands of somebody who cannot meet them. Our needs need to be met by the dance we do with God inside of ourselves, not outside of us. MEGAN: (14:10) Number three, women who are privileged by their status in patriarchal structures. So the third pattern by which a woman supports the patriarchal structures happens when she does not want to rock the boat because she might lose her privileged status. And number four, women who are looking for a way for a man to heal their wounds. This puts men in a place where they don't belong, can't function, and will never succeed even if they think they can. It creates a vicious cycle of female wounds running into male wounds that often manifest as someone who is pedestalized but is always failing. All four of these and others cause broken relationships between women. We stop championing ourselves and others. We no longer honor each other. Our fellowship falls into the shallow, unsatisfactory places of how we can be more submissive or patriarchal, thereby worshiping these dogmas and laying our own selves on the altar of an imbalance of power within ourselves and outside of ourselves. So why circles? Why now? MEGAN: (15:38) If you're like me and you do not want to succumb to the patriarchal cesspool of swirling blackness sucking at our souls, you might want to join circle with us. One of my favorite quotes is by SARK, the circles of women around us weave invisible nets of love that carry us when we're weak and sing with us when we're strong. Isn't that beautiful? Don't you want that? I know I do. Centuries ago, like I said, it was common for women to come together in circle every day to support one another in birth and during the menstrual cycle to cook and sew together, to take care of one another's children, and to share stories of inspiration and triumph. We thrived in that nurturing, connective environment where they could lean on their village sisters in times of trouble and dance with them in times of celebration. But with the industrial revolution and technological progress over the last century, women lost touch with that ancient art of circling and forgot the power of the feminine. MEGAN: (16:57) In ancient Israel, women called it red tent living. I believe from my research that these women helped each other survive by coming to the aid of each other, honoring one another, and upholding each other in a world where women were seen as property of men. Sadly, the evangelical culture began to shallow five women circles, creating Bible studies and meetings that were simply logistical or gathered around patriarchal beliefs, making circles more about doing rather than just being. So this is what I'm determined to change for us, including myself. Obviously, we have some massive divisions in our world today. We are experiencing strong extreme polarizations. It feels as though everywhere in the world is a split into an us versus them mentality. The patriarchal system we currently live in is based on the concepts of individuality and independence. And as a result, women have been taught since childhood that we need to prove ourselves worthy by claiming I can do it myself in order to find our place in the world. This emphasis on the self over community leads to mistrusting one another. And competing with each other. The current state of society is so fragmented and so separated. MEGAN: (18:28) We are not working together as a human race. And so we continue to see war, destruction, and pain of our beautiful planet, along with disease and decimation of our souls. When women circle, we learn to trust ourselves and one another. We step into our sovereignty as individuals while also learning how to be part of a collective. This is what I call the Holy Trinitarian Flow within us all and among us. Sisterhood, Christ in us, Christ among us. With all of the silencing within religious frameworks, we have forgotten our Imago Dei. It's no wonder women temporarily forgot how to use their voices. But when we come together as a unified sisterhood, supporting and celebrating each other, collaborating and co-creating together, we reclaim our power. This is the shift we are waiting for. This is how we will change our world. Our worlds and each other's worlds. MEGAN: (19:48) With each circle, we have a theme or a discussion. We have a time to share and to reflect with each other. It is safe and beautiful. It is co-creative leadership with no hierarchy. It's like each woman in the circle is a spoke on the wheel, contributing her unique voice and talents and strengths and medicine, which is what makes the wheel turn. The wheel is created by the uniqueness of the community. Each woman contributes and together we co-create the mission with no judgment because we value and celebrate each woman's contribution and we are committed to her being her full self-expression. When we get that we each matter and that we each have something to offer, we can relax and stop trying to be everything to everyone. We can lean on our sisters and trust the law of giving and receiving. We'll be less exhausted and burned out with this new model. Everyone is in a different stage of life. Everyone comes in with different hurts. MEGAN: (21:03) Some are in abuse. Some are leaving abuse. Others are looking for community and still others of you are wading through the sacred waters of illness. We are all here for it no matter what. I love this quote by Dr. Bolan. The opposite of patriarchy is not matriarchy; it's circle. I'm so excited to invite you all to circle beginning on March 14th. We do not meet on the first Sunday of the month. We meet three Sundays of the month and we often alternate who is being the space holder for our circles. It's $30 a month. It is a subscription and it's so worth it. MEGAN: (21:53) It is not expensive and it is incredibly valuable. I miss my sisters and I can't wait to see you all again. So please take some time to think about this. We're going through so much right now in our world. It's not easy for me and I know it's not easy for you to watch survivors again receive no justice, to be exploited, to be dishonored and to see it done by women is an extra step in the backstabbing. A new layer of horror but we're stronger together and if we stay together and we meet together across the miles online over zoom we're never alone. Okay, all right so go to our website www.mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. We'll have the information linked below. Sign up for Sacred Circles and I hope to see you there. This has been Pretty Psych with Megan Owen. MEGAN: (23:08) I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God, self, and others. If you'd like some one-on-one time with me, unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode and, in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.

Key Takeaways: Megan and Elle Arters talk about their struggles and strategies when it came to making friendships and nourishing relationships after coming out of their abusive relationships. Megan and Elle also discuss the power of groups and what kind of people are good confidants when it comes to sharing traumatized part of oneself. Notable Quotes: "I was hyper vigilant and paranoid for every new person, [and] every old person, [I was] like [to] anybody in my circle, like are you trustworthy? Are you safe?...it really does so much damage to your relationship with everyone." — Elle Arters "[Something] that I did was offering maybe 1% of my life to somebody to see how they handled that 1%, and if they proved trustworthy, I felt like I could offer 3%. But again, not flooding anybody with my trauma life..." — Megan Owen "But as I've had to walk stuff in the last 15 years, it expands my capacity for their story, for what they're going through, for what they might need, you know, different things like that." — Elle Arters "...we had lost our belongings. We had lost our homes. We had lost our children. We had lost our friends and our family and churches and we were in it together. We were comrades." — Megan Owen Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com To look into Crisis Support Groups: HERE If you are interested in the Spiritual Processing Groups, please reach out to [email protected]   (0:03) MEGAN: This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of Evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen.I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself.  (1:12) MEGAN: Hi, friends. Megan Owen here from Mountain City Christian Counseling, and I have Elle Arters with me for our podcast Pretty Psych. Elle, I am so grateful to have you today.  (1:23) ELLE: Thank you. I am very excited to be here. (1:26) MEGAN: Elle and I have known each other for 15 years. We are very good friends. She is an amazing advocate and coach, and she works with Mountain City Christian Counseling now. So great with web design and all of the tech things that I can't do, and we've worked together before, and I'm probably saying all of that wrong, Elle, but I'm really grateful that you are working with us again.  (1:49) ELLE: Yep, that was perfect. Thank you. I'm excited to be back here with you, too.  (1:54) MEGAN: Okay. Well, we thought we would talk about friendships after abuse. This is something that I think Elle and I both struggled with 15 years ago trying to navigate how to create and maintain friendships when you have just come out of an abusive situation and you do have complex trauma and are struggling with the 5F responses, fight, flight, freeze, fawn, and fold, and everybody is so different, and there aren't any books out there on how to create and maintain friendships after abuse, right?  (2:28) ELLE: Exactly. Exactly.  (2:30) MEGAN: So we thought we would start by talking about how easy it is to cocoon and pull in after you've left an abusive situation. A lot of us suffered from post-separation abuse. Everything felt scary. We felt like emotional burn victims. Everything felt very raw, and that's normal for CPTSD, and we still need community, and so how do we bring that together? Isolation seems very peaceful for a while, but then after a while, we can sort of get weird, right? I know I get weird. Isolation will make me a very weird version of myself, and so we do need to have each other. We struggle with abandonment wounds if we have CPTSD, and we tend to do one of two things, which are very extreme. We can either try to lock others down to help heal us, or we can do the door slam, which that was sort of my choice of coping was the INFJ door slam, so we have to find somewhere in the middle, right?  (3:46) ELLE: Yeah, exactly. I can completely relate.  (3:50) MEGAN: I know. Somehow, we didn't slam the door on each other. I'm not sure how that happened, but right, so it's not our fault that we have CPTSD, and we can take responsibility for the symptoms and any obsessiveness that we might struggle with at the same time.  (4:09) ELLE: Yeah, exactly. I was thinking when I was kind of reflecting back myself in preparation for our dialogue today, and I think we probably chatted about this when we got together last month too, but how, like you said, we're wired for community. It's a critical piece in our ability to thrive, in our ability to heal, and yet the challenge, of course, is for so many of us, we also had our community betray us, so our relationship with community in general has been shattered. Our relationship with ourself has been shattered. Our relationship often with God has been shattered, so everything is flipped upside down. Everything's kind of disconnected, and yeah, we do all kinds of different, wild, weird, understandable. Of course, that's a hard place to navigate, and yet, like you said, we are desperate. We still need community, and we need friendship, so how do we do that through these different stages too? When I reflect back from almost 15 years ago when my life exploded and trauma started, how I related to friends and community in that stage was one version of crazy, and then as I continued to heal, or not heal, but as I continued on that journey, and then these different stages, my relationship with community looked different, and still difficult, and still, I don't know, it's just a challenge is really all I'm trying to say.  (5:50) MEGAN: You're saying it well.  (5:51) ELLE: Yeah, it keeps presenting all these unique challenges, and so yeah, that's why I was so excited, really, that you wanted to chat about this on the podcast, though, because like so many things, I launched down this path so blindly, and that included, like I was not prepared for how my relationship with community and friendships would change, would evolve, how difficult it would be, and like you said, I didn't have any books on that, or I didn't have resources to kind of help guide me, or even just prepare me for that kind of massive shift, so I love that we're talking about this. I'm confident it'll help others, and for anybody listening who can relate, you know, like it's not you. You're not alone. This is such a normal piece in walking trauma and post-trauma. (6:46) MEGAN: Yes, well, let's start there then, with that transition. So before our lives imploded, to borrow your term, our friendships might have been based on church involvement maybe, or what we thought healthy friendships looked like, or they might have been more transactional if you were in more of a legalistic place. That was our understanding of relationships. We didn't really have this sense, I think, at least I didn't have this sense of, okay, I'm going to be loved no matter what happens. I felt that I had to perform all the time. That was where I was at the time, and so if we think of that sort of before implosion and after implosion, BI, before implosion, we then realized, I think both, I don't mean to speak for you, but we sort of went through this together, and that's a lot of how we connected. We realized that we were right. We wouldn't be loved no matter what we did. We felt that, and that was devastating for me. I didn't know how to start over at the time. So isolation for me felt a lot safer, and it worked because I'm introverted, and I know you are too, and so we probably did something similar, but at the same time, like something you just said, we desperately need to be seen during those times, and we're terrified to be seen during those times, and we need some contact. We need some friction for our social skills and to be able to grow, but groups were terrifying at that time. (8:44) ELLE: Yeah, exactly. Again, I guess when I reflect back, there's so many different stages, but going all the way back to the beginning for me, yeah, when my world exploded, that included, and part of the catalyst was a betrayal by friends and close friends that were in my community, and then I had some friends who remained who were steadfast and loyal and beyond grateful for that, and then I had, of course, kind of the other extreme of friends who felt like they needed to take different sides, and anyway, I think betrayal is probably the best way to explain it, and so yeah, then I remember that first year, in fact, feeling so paranoid. That was like another, I don't know what the right word is, like just another outcome, I guess, that I wasn't anticipating.  (9:25) ELLE: I was hyper vigilant and paranoid for every new person, but every old person, like anybody in my circle, like are you trustworthy? Are you safe? Is everything I'm going to say, is it going to be used against me? Is it going to be literally given to other people who would intentionally and cheerfully weaponize it? And this is what I mean, like it really does so much damage to your relationship with everyone. There was that early season where I felt so hyper independent and distrusting of so many people, which is a really unhealthy but understandable outcome, I guess, of trauma. (10:12) MEGAN: Absolutely, and that's a CPTSD symptom, is that hypervigilance, and I wasn't like that before, but then after going through that betrayal, right, I would panic over an email. Everything felt raw. That's that sort of emotional burn victim sort of feeling of, you know, and I was ready to slam the door. I was ready if it felt in any way threatening, but yes, I think you're describing it beautifully.  (10:41) ELLE: Yeah, and I'll share too, in case anybody else is kind of finding themselves in a similar place. I feel like, obviously, I had some friendships that I would say were healthy and grounded, and I'd had for decades, and so grateful for those. Then I had some other friendships, probably at that time, who I was doing more like the day-to-day life, because that wasn't within my church community, and that community was very, honestly, just very codependent, right? That was like a whole other conversation, but I know you've talked about that in different spaces of just that spiritual community can often create these very codependent beliefs and relationships. Anyway, so even some of my friendships, I don't mean codependent in like a pathological way, but just generally speaking, I just felt like very needy, and other people were stronger. So even some of my friendships, again, not all of them, but some of them probably showed up that way, and over the years, as I tried to work through that, and I was healing and realizing, oh, I don't like that dynamic. I don't need to be that way, but I can look back and see how I would pendulum swing in those early years. So for me, there were times where I was it really wasn't healthy. It was far too needy, but then I would swing all the way to the other side of being hyper-independent, and for me, that was, I think, part of the motivation for, okay, I just need to isolate and withdraw. I'm too much. My world is so traumatic, and for a long time, I was going to friends to be like, yeah, can you help me fix this? And then other stages on that healing journey of feeling like, oh my gosh, that's not their responsibility. It's mine, and flipping all the way to the other side of, okay, I won't be needy at all. I won't ask. I won't come to you at all, and I'll just be very withdrawn and isolated. Sometimes that was because I felt like the world was untrustworthy, but sometimes that was because I felt like I was untrustworthy. So I'm just sharing like different, like a whole variety of different ways of trying to relate to others while on this crazy post-trauma journey, right?  (13:12) MEGAN: Yes. Thank you for sharing that. So it really, it feels like you were over-correcting, and I think maybe that has to do with how we feel about ourselves. I know that when I was needy, I hated feeling like that, and I can see where I did that as well, that hyper-independence, which is a trauma response, right? Swinging over, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners have done the same thing because it doesn't feel good to be the one who always needs help, and sometimes people don't give help in a gracious way either, and that can feel like a little stab or a small betrayal, and so it sort of pushes you back over it. But we, like you said, we desperately need that community, and it's a good point that you're bringing up that our friendships can change. Sometimes we do grow after trauma, and we can't relate to people in the same way that we did before, and sometimes people don't like that. Sometimes they champion us for growing, you know, really just kind of, for me, it was growing up. I had to grow up and see what I was made of, but our friends might not be a great fit anymore. Not everybody is growing, and not everybody is recovering, and not everybody is actively working on healing, and sometimes we can't put up with certain behaviors anymore that maybe we put up with before. So since you're sharing, one of the things I remember doing is allowing people to treat me poorly because I didn't want to lose anybody else, and so as I grew, I stopped allowing that, and then I lost those people. So it wasn't even, it didn't even really work, right?  (15:08) ELLE: For sure. I've experienced similar things too where, like I said, sort of those early stages, you've got this pendulum swinging thing happening, so that's a challenge, and then once you even get to the next stage of healing where like, okay, I've kind of found my healthy space of how I want and how I can show up and relate to friends, even that healthy new growth space no longer fits for either extreme of other people who wanted, yeah, who wanted me to show up in those other spaces because that fit their own dysfunction, or even if it's not a dysfunction, it just may be just a different space on their journey. I just no longer fit in those spaces anymore, and so I think it's a positive, but it still is challenging because now you're in new spaces and trying to find those friendships and those other people who can relate or who are in those new spaces, yeah, it's just, it's a challenge.  (16:15) MEGAN: It's a challenge, and that's why we're talking about it. So yeah, and I think that sort of being nice to a fault so that people won't leave you, that's fawning, that's the very definition of it. So that might be a phase that you go through. So it is, it's a primal feeling in us to want belonging, even if we say we don't want belonging, we secretly really do want belonging, and so how do we start to do that? And I think that's the question you asked right at the beginning, and by the way, Elle, you're so articulate. That's why I wanted you here. You have a way of explaining things that just make sense to me. So okay, so we need some friction. We need some contact for our social skills after abuse, right? I have this story I often share with my clients that within a few months of my taking my children and leaving, the neighbor at the house next door asked me why I never look him in the eye, and I realized that I had lost so many social skills by being in a 12-year-long abusive relationship and had to start teaching myself, training myself, and as I started to heal, little interactions became tolerable. Not floodlighting, but twinkle lights, and I remember sort of practicing. The second thing that I did was offering maybe 1% of my life to somebody to see how they handled that 1%, and if they proved trustworthy, I felt like I could offer 3%, but again, not flooding anybody with my trauma life, which okay, so even as I'm saying this, I know I did that at the beginning as I was trying to learn how to adjust. I was just in such crisis, I think, that I would often floodlight until I learned this term, twinkle light, but that's when as I got healthier, I began to be able to be in a group and just share a little bit. (18:33) ELLE: Yeah, definitely. I definitely relate. The 15 years is just such different stages of this kind of healing journey with friends and community, but yeah, oh my gosh, the first two and a half years, like a full two and a half years, my world shattered, my boundaries were shattered, there was just so much that was just shattered, and you're just leaking out. I knew I had so few healthy coping skills and tools at that point, and yeah, any person who was in front of me who was willing to listen, I just trauma dumped. I didn't know that term at the time, but looking back, that's very much what I did, but yeah, I agree. Just like you said, the longer, the more we heal, the longer we're on that journey, of course, that shifts and you start to find those boundaries. I love your tip. I love how you put those words to these specific boundaries of when you're starting over with friendships, acquaintances. I've used this with dating. You don't just like, here is 100% of me, I'm sure you'll be fine, or 0%, going back to what I said on that pendulum swing. It's very normal then to be, if you feel like, oh, I've shared too much, I'm too trustworthy, then to flip all the way to the other side, and I will share no things, and I won't trust anyone. Obviously, it's like, what are those good tips of finding something more in the middle? I think that's so wise to like, okay, well, I could start with 1%, I could start with 3%, I can start and continue on. If that other person, of course, is honoring and respecting and knowing how to hold space for that incremental amount that you keep sharing, yeah.  (20:25) MEGAN: Well, and that's what's important right there, is that relationship that we're able to find somebody. In the therapeutic relationship, that's where we do all of this work. It is 90% relational and 10% modality, in my opinion. That's where we practice almost building healthy relationships and having clients know that their feelings are validated. And even we say the words trauma dump, and we both did that. I know we both did that. I remember doing it. And there is a bleeding out quality to it, but I don't want anybody to feel shamed for that. The reason we call it bleeding out is because we can't stop it. We desperately need help. And it's an emergency protective measure. That's an emergency protective measure, just like the other side of the pendulum, which is totally shutting down. That's also an emergency protective measure. And at the time, that's what we needed, but it's not a way to live our whole life. And so when you're able to work it out with your therapist or coach or whatever, and you want to begin to make some of those connections, shallow connections at first are okay. That's normal. We might've gotten used to floodlighting, bleeding out, trauma dumping. Those are the words that we're using today, apparently. But that is not sustainable for anybody, including us. And it really is a cry for help. It is our saying, we're not able to find what we need anywhere. And right now we are the weaker brother, right? We need somebody to step in and say, hey, have you thought about this and this and this? And of course, those are the things you and I have been offering for all of these years because we didn't have those things.  (22:26) ELLE: Yeah, exactly. And for sure, no shame at all, no shame or judgment for anybody who's in those stages and myself as well. I don't shame myself for that. Those early years, exactly what you just said, I was in genuine need and needed help. And I think that's so wise to try to be as aware as you are able in that stage to know where do I go? Who are the safer, I don't know if the most appropriate is the right word, but it made me think of how you and I met in my first year. Some people might know, but you and I met on a Facebook private group for other women who were walking in a similar situation. And that was such a gift for so many reasons, but that was a safe space. I was on fire. I think we all pretty much were. We were all in the thick of it in the earliest stages. And to have a place where we could dump, we could share, and we could receive encouragement, we could receive, it was trustworthy, and we could receive validation and everything that we needed in a community, that was a game changer. Even though it was online, I didn't know anybody, really, initially. But yeah, that was so, so, so precious and helpful at that time. I'm so grateful for that. And just learning, okay, who else in my community at that time was safe, and then who else in that community just wasn't. I shouldn't go to them at 100%, or I shouldn't go to them at 80%. I could go to them for five.  (24:16) MEGAN: Right. So what are those qualities? What would you say are the qualities of somebody who was safe during that time?  (24:25) ELLE: Yeah, that's a great question. I think part of why that online group, as an example, was safe was, one, it was other people who were walking what we were walking. So there wasn't judgment. It was just full of grace, full of mercy, full of empathy, full of compassion. There was a lot of wise women in there, even if we obviously, we did not have all the answers. So many of us were walking blindly. But there was also, and I think at that time, it was, I think it was like a Christian group. I think that we were all of the same faith background.  (25:12) MEGAN: It was called Joel 225 or something like that. And it was started because there was nothing out there for Christian women who were looking at these marriages that were abusive, and we just didn't have anything. And it was confidential. There was safety in the confidentiality.  (25:33) ELLE: Yes, absolutely. (25:34) MEGAN: So the flip side then for the unsafe would be lacking in those things. You just, those positive qualities of, it was full of grace. It was full of mercy. There was understanding. There was compassion. There was safety and confidentiality. And so an unsafe, and I don't want to label people as unsafe. It just might not be a good time to be open with somebody because they haven't learned yet to keep confidentiality or to honor your story without judgment. (26:24) ELLE: And I think too, in that group and just in general, I think there's a humility. And while so many of us would probably also be experiencing maybe a form of a humiliation a little bit, but I'm not saying because we deserve that or anything. I just mean out other people. It's- Yeah. But there was also a humility in having to walk something where we don't have all the answers. And there was a humility in walking just the raw, real parts of some of us had lost homes or some of us had, there was just a lot of loss. It created, or I think it cultivated this very humble space that we all were inhabiting. And so again, very hard to be judgmental when we're all at like a rock bottom of sorts. And so there was this really unique sacred beauty, I think, that we got to inhabit then because of these very humble spaces.  (27:37) MEGAN: Memories just flooded for me as you were talking about, as we had, we had lost our belongings. We had lost our homes. We had lost our children. We had lost our friends and our family and churches and we were in it together. We were comrades. (27:55) ELLE: Exactly. And I really, I love this because I really haven't reflected on this in a long time. But again, it was just this, the other aspect of humility is again, none of us had the answers. We had no idea. Most of us were like, so many surprises. A lot of us, like you said, we lost belongings, we lost friendships, we lost respect, we lost reputation. We lost so many things and we didn't have answers of quick fixes, but there was again, just this genius of that. And so all we could do was witness one another, not even knowing how powerful that was. I would never have been able to articulate that or had the vocabulary for that at the time, or even an awareness at that time. I remember goodness in those early years, again, just feeling so blind, just so blind and just being so at God's mercy. I have no idea. I barely know if this was, I think this was still the good decision, but I'm reaping so much pain and suffering. So you're just walking so blindly and so humbly. And yet, again, I just think that's where the power is. And we were all doing it in a similar season. So yeah, I think witnessing without trying to fix, witnessing without a judgment, witnessing with just compassion, feeling like we didn't have enough. And now looking back and realizing that was so brilliant and adequate. And yeah, it didn't fix our circumstances, but it was just this really powerful, humble love. (29:42) MEGAN: It was, it was profound in that, you know, the more I'm listening, I haven't thought about it this way either. And I'm really getting emotional. But it was profound in how we just companioned. Because like you said, there was nothing we could do to fix anything. It was just belonging.  (30:05) ELLE: Yeah, it really was. And it wasn't, we could offer encouragement, you know, and we could offer the cheerleading, and you've got this. And obviously, we might have resources, and we can offer these tools. But none of us were in a power to fix it. And yeah, wow, that was exactly what we actually needed. So yeah, we can find those communities in those stages.  (30:32) MEGAN: You know, eventually, that was the catalyst. I think just that modeling for the nonprofit that I started Give Her Wings that you were a part of also with me. And that's where I remember Brandy sending us all roses that first Valentine's Day, which was I'd never I just I can't even tell you what that did for me. And that's what- Yeah, you remember too?  (30:59) ELLE: Yeah, I remember that. I saved-shout out to her here. But I saved the little card that came with the flowers for years and years and years. Because yeah, it was so it was just so encouraging. You felt so alone and isolated. And yet, yeah, she's wonderful at saying, “Nope, I see you.”  (31:21) MEGAN: Yes, yes. And that was, I mean, those were the things I learned for starting the nonprofit. And now of course, we offer groups for women going through those things, crisis groups and deconstruction groups that start in January. And all of that started with that group that you and I were a part of that, that witnessing that compassionate witnessing of our grief, of our pain of our loss. It was profound. That's, that's all I can say about it. So yes, so finding groups like that. It's, it's everything. It's everything. And, and Elle and I and Karen and, and our new coaches coming up and everybody who's in this business of, of empowering and loving women into healing, none of us will ever judge you. Because we know what that's like. We were judged so harshly. So, so harshly during that time. And it does nothing to help or heal anybody. It's so unloving. So, and you feel that you can feel a smidge of oppression will set us off a smidge of judgment will, will make us want to run like we know that you all would feel that from us. And so you'll not experience that with any of us.  (32:44) ELLE: Yeah, I think, you know, after kind of, at least for me, after that most intense season of trauma, and I kind of, I loved what you said, like bleeding out, this is exactly how I described it. There's this two years, two and a half years where I just bled out or like hemorrhaged. And, and then I, for me, I had this very distinct timeline and memory of when it was stopping. I remember thinking like, “Oh, he's binding, God is binding my wounds.” Like I was in a new season where he was beginning to heal. But I share that to say again, for anyone listening, if they're farther down their own journey a bit, because I probably would have thought, okay, there I have now, the hemorrhaging has ended, the intense trauma is over. And now I'm just gonna like, like this very binary, like, and now I'm going to go into the healing stage. And not realizing Yeah, or maybe thinking like, okay, like, it's just this one, you know… (33:49) MEGAN: Linear…  (33:50) ELLE: …all uphill. That's what I'm trying to say. Thank you very much. Yes. And not still not fully, fully prepared for like, “Oh, I definitely am moving into healing stage that is real.” But it is a whole other new bag of worms. It took me a little while to realize all the different stages are needed, and they're good, and they're valid. But again, still can be challenging to find other people who can hold those spaces of zigzagging.  (34:23): MEGAN: Yes, yes, that I'm so grateful that you said that because it is and I, I can name on one hand, you know, on one hand, the number of people who were able to do that with me. And we're still friends. And you're one of those. Because I have been up and down and in and out. And it's been a lot of things in my life are steady as far as like my mothering, or my, my counseling business or the nonprofit or chaplain, you know, the things I do are steady. But as it relates to being vulnerable, even now, 15 years later, sometimes this little part of me goes, “Oh, my gosh, I was too vulnerable. I shared too much,” you know, and, and then, and you have been there the whole time. You, you are a safe container. You always have been for me. I've always known I could reach out to you.  (35:16) ELLE: Oh, that's so sweet. I love that. And same like, truly, truly same back. And, and I think, my guess, I think part of the reason why you and I are able to do that is a little bit because we have walked very similar things, you know, and that's another aspect that is such a blessing and you hold on dearly when you can find those people. And we just kind of have to walk maybe a little soberly or humbly to know that they are a little harder to find. I let me say like, again, over the next, I mean, over the last decade or so, my community and my friendship circles have ebbed and flowed multiple times, not like every year, not like unstable and chaotic, but they have just ebbed and flowed as my life has not just circumstantially changed, but more again, just along my healing journey is really what it is, is as I have either healed or grown, or just as I have changed my different value system, or if I've changed different boundaries or different things like that, as those things have changed, the people who have stayed that course, again, are just usually people who are walking something pretty similar in their world. So they're not shocked by the zigzagging or the new changes, or they're not offended, or they're not confused. And I'm not even like necessarily judging somebody else who is responding that way. It's just okay, like their life journey is taking them in a different space, or, you know, they're just somewhere else, you know, on their journey. But you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is like, when you go through trauma, and you go through some of these things, you've seen some things that you can't unsee. Right? And so, you know, I can think back, gosh, 20 years ago, if somebody had shared a story, I wasn't like a terrible person, I didn't, I didn't not care about them. I just didn't have the capacity to hold their story yet. I just didn't. But as I've had to walk stuff in the last 15 years, it expands my capacity for their story, for what they're going through, for what they might need, you know, different things like that. And that just takes living, in my opinion, you know, like, you don't go to a 20 year old, not because they're not amazing, but you just don't, they only have 20 years of life experience. Yeah, I think that's just another part of what to expect in your like, community changing journey.  (38:00) MEGAN: Yes. And it's good for these changes to happen. And that will kind of end there, you hinted at that a few minutes ago. It's important that it does change, change means of growth, even when it's crazy painful, there's something waiting, some new blooming in some way, that the breaking means there's resurrection, it's that cruciformity. And so try to write it out, if you can, when those changes happen, and know that it can get better and will get better. So, Elle, I just I can't thank you enough. This is just filled my cup today. Thank you for coming on Pretty Psych. And for all the work you do for us behind the scenes. I just love you to pieces. You're so precious to me. (38:51) ELLE: Thank you. I love you too. Thank you so much for letting me have this conversation with you. (38:56) MEGAN: I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought, as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God's self and others. If you'd like some one-on-one time with me, unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode. And in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.

Key Takeaways: Karen was interviewed by Focus on the Family and has some thoughts to share on forgiveness, "battering" and whether or not her husband rescued her. Megan and Karen discuss misconceptions in the interview surrounding abuse and relationships. Notable Quotes: "...our brain is part of our body, so emotional abuse, psychological abuse, verbal abuse is all physical violence because our brain is part of our bodies." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "You can't tell a woman that God hates divorce and then ask why she stayed when she's been abused, but that's what they did. This very entity speaks about how God hates divorce." — Megan Owen "We are conditioned to behave how they want us to behave, how they want us to react, how they want us to respond. We're the one that shuts down our voice. We're the one that does all the changing. They don't. We do." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "We [forgive] because we've been forgiven. But we can't even do that because we haven't even forgiven ourselves for allowing this stuff to happen to us and thinking that "if we'd only done this or that", and we hold ourselves to a standard." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "Many say, 'Don't you want a restored marriage' -- restored to WHAT? It was never a good structure in the first place!" -- Megan Owen Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com LINK TO THE INTERVIEW: HERE Coach Karen's book   (0:03) MEGAN: This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself.  (1:14) MEGAN: Okay, hi Karen.  (1:16) KAREN: Hi Megan. (1:18) MEGAN: It's Megan and Karen with Pretty Psych, and we're so happy to be together. We just love our talks. We love running through things. We love debriefing on everything. I really don't know where I'd be without Karen right now. I need to be able to talk through so many things, especially as we're getting close to the holidays. Karen, thank you for being an amazing friend to me and an amazing coach.  (1:40) KAREN: Oh, you're so welcome, and I feel the same.  (1:46) MEGAN: Well, we decided to come together today to debrief a recent interview that you did, Karen, where you talked about domestic violence, and you got to share about your book. I have so many questions, and I have thoughts about how the interview went. If you haven't seen it, we're going to go ahead and link it here. We did send it out in a big email blast as well. It's gotten a lot of attention from the women in our circles, right?  (2:19) KAREN: Yes, a lot, and a lot of encouragement because very few people knew in advance that I was doing the interview and when it was going to release. These were the women that knew ahead of everybody else.  (2:34) MEGAN: Right, but it was all very exciting. There were a lot of comments. There's been a lot of feedback. A lot of the feedback I have noticed seems to be surrounding how you gave a lot of pushback during the interview, and I noticed that as well. Were you conscious of that as it was happening?  (2:53) KAREN: Yes, I was very conscious of it because I wanted to be careful and to listen to what questions they were asking and making sure I understood what they were saying. It was kind of like they were saying, here's a narrative that we were going, and I'm like, well, no, it's this. I would push back on that narrative, especially around physical violence because most ministries are really big no matter what they feel about domestic abuse. If he's hitting you, you should leave. You should get out. You should be safe, but most domestic abuse is not physical. That is what I wanted to make clear, and that part I did make clear that that's not what this is. I would have liked to talk more about coercive control and what all that looks like. However, I think most of the people that have responded to me understood the direction that I was going and were somewhat relieved, and it resonated with their stories. (3:59) MEGAN: Absolutely. I was so impressed by how you handled it. The questions felt like machine gun questions. I mean, you barely had an opportunity to answer. That's hard for me. I need to take a minute, take that sacred pause, like I tell our coaches, and think about it, but you didn't have the opportunity to do that, right?  (4:21) KAREN: Right, though a couple of times they had said something, and so they asked a question, and I actually answered the previous question, and I don't know how much of that was left in the interview, because we did talk more than 30 minutes, and I think the clips are just under 30 minutes, but there were times I would go back to a comment that was made or kind of a half question that they asked. (4:51) MEGAN: I felt like there was a little bit of an agenda on their part, and I did notice that you kept everybody aligned with what the purpose of this interview was really well. My very favorite part was when one of the men said, is there like a scale so that you know if you're being abused or not? And the other guy said, yeah, like a scale of one to ten, and they were like, yeah, yeah, and then you said there is no scale. I loved that. (5:26) KAREN: I know they definitely gave me time, because in my brain I'm thinking, a scale? No, there is no scale. You're right.  (5:35) MEGAN: Yeah, you said that, and it was so great. I loved that moment. You did get that message across that abuse is not just physical. You spoke of emotional and verbal abuse, which is very important, and I even think you said emotional violence, and that sort of blows that idea out of the water that DV or domestic violence is only physical. Remember that old term people used to say battered women or battered women syndrome? I don't think people realize the kind of psychological abuse that can happen with a narcissistic abuser, and you mentioned, you did a great job of mentioning how in your previous marriage, how he would shoot you down, treat you as a non-person, and make you feel small, and always had this threat looming of physical abuse, which that's just as bad.  (6:33) KAREN: Right. There are guys that are batterers, quite frankly, which is where that came from, and which everybody thought that's what it was. However, my ex used physical violence very purposefully, and that I was able to get across. There was a purpose behind it, and it didn't happen all the time. This wasn't a once a week or once a month. It could be once a year. It was just one of his tools in his toolbox, so to speak, that he would go to if he wanted to.  (7:04) MEGAN: Right, and that is how my kid's father was, too. There were physical altercations. Maybe there were four in 12 years or something like that, and I just knew that that was in his back pocket if he wanted to use it, and that's what control is, right?  (7:24) KAREN: Yes, yes, absolutely, and someone that I've been following her podcast, Tabitha Westbrook, in her book, she said, hey, our brain is part of our body, so physical or emotional abuse, psychological abuse, verbal is physical violence because our brain is part of our bodies, and yes, yes, it is. The bruises heal, but that healing from the psychological and the words and the thoughts, the things that they put on us, the conditioning they do to enmesh us to them, we have thoughts, and we think there are thoughts, and they're not. With my coaching clients, I sometimes say, that's not your thought. That is your abuser's. That's what he's been telling you, and you're talking like it's you saying that, and that is hard for most of us to grasp, that when you come out, not even all your thoughts are your own. (8:35) MEGAN: Yes, I mean, you're excellent with that, and that is a big part of what you do in coaching. I do something very similar. As you know, we need to get connected to our core selves. If we're connected to our core selves, our core spiritual selves, and we know who we are, we'll be able to isolate those thoughts that are just intrusive. They're not part of who we are. They've just been spoken over us, and it's like curses that have been spoken over us, and we need to put them where they need to go. So you did a great job of redirecting. They needed to be redirected, and I thought they did a great job interviewing there. Obviously, this is what they do for a living. They're very professional and all of that. They're not trauma-informed, obviously, and you walked that balance of sort of stepping them into it a little bit. You gave them a little peek behind the curtain as to what it might be like. I really like how you mentioned that a lot of women get married and they don't know until they say, I do, and they walk into the hotel or whatever it is. Another one of my favorite parts, though, Karen, is when they said, why did you stay? Why did you stay? Which is a very insensitive question, which they mentioned was insensitive, and then you told them it was insensitive, which I really appreciated because that just kind of shows a lack of understanding. You can't tell a woman that God hates divorce and then ask why she stayed when she's been abused, but that's what they did. This very entity speaks about how God hates divorce. They work hard to keep men and women together, and then they asked you in the interview why women stay. What was that like for you?  (10:24) KAREN: You know, I hate the question, and yet I like it at the same time because of the fact that I want to. It's a time to educate, and the odd thing is I don't remember quite what I said except probably something along that line.  (10:40) MEGAN: No, you said when women are hearing that God hates divorce, then why would they leave? And you even mentioned women who stay at home as though to help them understand when this is your whole world, this abuse, and you don't have anything outside of it. You don't go to a job where you're treated well, where you understand that it's not a you-problem. It's a him, you know, all of that. You brought that in.  (11:09) KAREN: Yeah, I did. Thank you for reminding me. I should have listened to the interview today again because I had forgotten that. Those were moments to me that were just holy because I don't know what they were expecting, but I know that even with each question, I wanted to get across to the women that would be listening, talking about hard marriage or going through hard things or the fact that, you know, well, before you leave, you should make sure it's really abuse, knowing that it takes women so long to recognize what they're experiencing even is abuse by time they recognize it, then there's no doubt because they've actually been doubting it for so long. And I didn't get to answer that the way I wanted to, and I'm not sure why. I mean, it took me almost 30 years to admit he was an abuser and that I was being abused. And it was a horrifying moment. It was easy to say that about him, but to say I'm abused, then what the heck is wrong with me that I would even allow someone to do that, which I will tell you right now, I tell everyone when I talk to you, take that word allow out of your vocabulary because nobody allowed him to you did not allow it. You did not give him permission. You did not sign up and sign on your marriage certificate as with a small print saying, go ahead and abuse me because I'm allowing it. We do not do that.  (12:48) MEGAN: No, no. And if you could answer that question now, is that what you would say? Is there anything else you would add to it?  (12:56) KAREN: I would add that it is gut-wrenching to finally have it hit you that this is not normal, that you finally realize you can't do this anymore and you don't care if God's mad at you. You just don't care. You just know you have to get out because this is not what they said. You've done everything. And I heard one woman say, I had to know I did everything. I had to know I did everything to give him the opportunity to change. And as I listened, I thought you could have never done enough, but she didn't know that at the time because she was actually listening to programs that was telling her to try harder and to forgive and to do better that you just needed to do. If you did enough, there would be change on his part. But I think what I, and we didn't talk about this, but I've been thinking about this a lot about the change. He didn't just change. That question did come up in the interview. So when did they turn abusive? And that was sometimes right in the honeymoon night. I know people who the wedding was beautiful, it was amazing. He was so loving. And as soon as the door closed, everything changed in an instant, in an instant. And it's not a change. He didn't change into this kind of a man. He's taking off his mask. He was always this man. He didn't change. So we're trying to do enough so that they will change, but what are they going to change too? They were never the man they pretended to be. This is him. (14:48) MEGAN: Right, right. That reminds me of this sort of restoration talk that we sometimes hear in marriage therapy or in churches, like, don't you want a restored marriage? And I always want to say restored to what? It was never this way. He didn't start off some sort of great godly man. And then he, you know, became more, you know, when House gets old, what is that like? Dilapidated. And the marriage became dilapidated and we need to breathe life to it and restore what was there. No. And I am one of those people that on my wedding night, I knew I had made a terrible mistake. I was very sick that night. There had been a terrible virus going around and I had to do EMDR for our wedding night. You know, it was horrible. And I hung in there for 11 more years, 12 total. But it does, it's agonizing to leave that. And part of that, I think, is that sort of sunk cost fallacy. You've put so much into it. We put so much effort. We changed. We were doing everything we could. If we do this, then it'll get better. Maybe if I do this, maybe, you know, all of this. Sacrifice more. Get thinner. You know, all of the things that you think are going to make it better. And it doesn't. It's almost as though he enjoys watching you spin your wheels and try. And I want to riff off of that sentence you said a minute ago about how agonizing it is to make that decision. You have children. You know, you might have little ones or it doesn't matter. They might be grown. You know, people are now going to know that this happened to you. And there's just no way around it. And it tears your life apart. It is a breaking open. Back to the interview, I felt a little bit like they were very fixated on forgiveness. So at the end of 30 minutes, you're already smiling. At the end of 30 minutes of you sharing your story, they were very concerned about whether or not you had forgiven your ex-husband. And that I was fine until that moment. And then I just had to do the giant eye roll because really this is what we're concerned about is whether or not Karen's forgiven this man. Of course you have. We know that. Of course you have. But I just felt almost as though here they were putting a brick on your shoulders when it belonged on his. Right?  (17.29) KAREN: Yes. And I also like the question because I was able to say what I believe about forgiveness because I did do that. When I first got out, I was like, I'm a Christian. I'm supposed to do this. And yet I was still angry at him. But what I have learned about forgiveness, when you put it all together, you take the Old Testament, the sacrifices that had to be offered, and it wasn't open to everybody. Not everybody got offered forgiveness because if you were impure, you couldn't go offer a sacrifice. I mean, there were all these things that you had hoops to jump through. And then Jesus comes with radical forgiveness. But even he said, if you don't forgive, you can't be forgiven because it was very conditional at that time. But then in Matthew, he expanded and said, but if you refuse to forgive from your heart, because it's easy to give lip service to anything, but it dawned on me, we don't refuse. We can't forgive from our heart until we deal with what's in our heart. But then you jump to after Jesus's death and resurrection, and now forgiveness has become you forgive because you've been forgiven. There's no, God won't forgive you. There's no, how many times do you forgive? We do it because we've been forgiven. But we can't even do that because we haven't even forgiven ourselves for allowing this stuff to happen to us and thinking that if we'd only done this or that, and we hold ourselves to a standard. And so we often though, in that forgiveness, which I think comes out of healing, we naturally forgive, we naturally release because we don't want them to have territory in our lives anymore. But even then it's easier to release them than it is ourselves for the choices that we made when we were in survival mode.  (19:44) MEGAN: Right. And that's where we need that self-compassion.  (19:47) KAREN: Yes.  (19:48) MEGAN: Especially if you come from a family of origin that didn't value you, that abused you, you have to understand that there was conditioning there. In some cases, not all, but in some cases, you didn't have really a choice. This is what you knew. This is what you thought was normal. There really was no way for you to choose any other way. So we have to see that we don't come out of the womb with all of the tools and all of the savvy and all of the understanding and being able to tell what good character is. We just don't come out that way. We have maybe one tool. And then now as we're older, we have a whole toolbox. You spoke so wisely to these questions when they asked you about forgiveness. It is natural. It has to come from healing. I think about Joseph. Joseph had to name it. He had to name what they had done. He had to look at it, probably looked at it from several angles. He had to cry a lot. Joseph was always crying. He had to cry. He had to grieve. And then he had to go back and say, I'm going to forgive you. We don't even know if his brothers understood at all what they had done to Joseph. I think if I went up to my ex-husband and said, I forgive you for what you did, he would just roll his eyes. He doesn't get it. He doesn't care. But it was for Joseph, that release that you spoke of. I think though, even the very last chapter of Genesis, the last verse maybe is Joseph went off and wept again. And I think that's because his brothers never got it. They just didn't get it. So it's good to see the humanity of people in scripture, to see that we're just doing the best we can and forgiveness needs to be held loosely. Just hold it loosely until it comes. It's going to come. Forcing forgiveness, that's never a good idea. Then you have a bunch of people just giving lip service to it, right?  (21:49) KAREN: Yeah. Well, and I've met women who did not deal with their pain, did not name what was done to them because they had forgiven him because that's what good Christian girls are supposed to do and never deal with their pain and then would feel tormented. And I'm like, it's not torment. It's your pain screaming for release. It wants to be named. It wants to be heard. And so forgiveness can actually stop the process of healing because you think once you've said that, you can't go back and look at it and say what he did to you or what you, or the things that you never got from him, the neglect and whatnot. And so it's not always healthy because, but it's become a badge within Christianity and it causes spiritual bypassing. It causes people to think that they're fine. I don't need to do that. I'm just fine. And you're anything but fine, but you don't know that you're not fine. And I say that because that was me. I did that for many, many years and thought I was fine until one day I wasn't fine at all.  (23:04) MEGAN: Right. Because that emotion lodges into your body. Emotion is energy and it can actually make you ill. You have all of that inside of you. I've also known women who finally opened up and shared their pain and were immediately shut down, called unforgiving, called bitter, when they were trying to just express that they've been in pain and not just shut them down. And then it could be another decade before they're brave enough to say something again. And that again, that's more of the healing work that we do here is we listen, we honor, we companion through that complicated grief of all of that loss from after you're coming out of an abusive situation.  (23:48) KAREN: Yes, absolutely. And something when we, I want to go back to the whole change process, because it occurred to me while we were talking back and forth, you know, who's the one that changes us? We change. We're the ones that change. We are conditioned to behave how they want us to behave, how they want us to react, how they want us to respond. We're the one that shuts down our voice. We're the one that does all the changing. They don't. We do.  (24:20) MEGAN: And if there's any hope in that, it's that we know that we can change and we can grow and become the version of ourselves that we were supposed to be, because we know what it is to change.  (24:34) KAREN: Yes, absolutely. So that is a beautiful end of that is because if we changed, that means we can change not back to some former version of ourself, but as you said, to our truest self, nothing gave me more pleasure than last week at looking at one of my coaching clients and to say, I want to introduce you to your true self. And, and she just lost it because I, she said, I don't know who that is. And I go, well, that's what we're going to learn. We're going to discover her. And, and another part of that was scary to realize a true self because what if you don't like her? And and, and honestly, sometimes, you know, as I discover my true self, sometimes I am too much and sometimes I'm too loud. Sometimes I'm too quiet. Sometimes it doesn't matter. I have learned to be okay with who I am as long as I'm still in this healing process.  (25:37) MEGAN: Yes, yes. And that's, and we will be it. If we are changing and growing, we will always be healing. And we, we just don't finish that, you know, during this life. And so that, that self acceptance is very important. I don't think you're too much. I don't think you're too loud. I love all versions of Karen that, and I love all versions of my clients as they're growing and they're changing. And, and as they're getting to know who they actually are, and that's a huge part of healing after abuse is, is getting people connected to who they are on the inside, because those, those things have just been decimated, but you're in there. You're in there. You're in there. Your soul can't be destroyed by your husband. It can't be, it might feel like it can be. It might feel like you have heard people say soul murder. That's not possible. That's not possible because that's the breath of God in us. And that part is going on from this life. So your soul is in there. It's just, sometimes it takes a little while to connect to you, right? (26:42) KAREN: Yes, it does. So one other thing that I would like that in the interview that I really didn't like how I responded was that about Tom being my knight in shining armor…  (26:55) MEGAN: That's what I was just going to talk about! But they set you up for that, Karen.  (27:01) KAREN: I know. And as if he had to rescue me. So first of all, I was single for five years before I met Tom. And when I came out of the abuse, I literally had man haters scrawled on my forehead. Heaven forbid that a man even look in my direction. I would give, I apparently, I just would give them a look that was like, like, come near me at your own risk. I didn't realize I did that until someone mentioned it to me. And all of a sudden I went, oh, so that's why they all of a sudden didn't come towards me. Oh, I was giving them a look apparently. So anyways, he, Tom did not rescue me. And well, he said it to me one time, he goes, I think some of the things I did while we were dating were things that abusers do. And I'm like, no, you, they actually mimic what you do.  (27:54) MEGAN: Because he's genuine. Tom is very genuine. (27:56) KAREN: He's genuine. He's a good listener. We went deep where we're not good at small talk. Neither one of us. So we went deep. We didn't go like everything all at once, but we spent a lot of time talking. He's never wanted to rescue me. And he told, when he told me that he loved me, he knew I couldn't say it back. And I couldn't, he didn't even want to tell me, he felt like the Holy spirit says, I want you to tell her. And he's like, yeah, I really don't want to do that. Cause he thought it would scare me off. It didn't, but I, he was okay that I didn't say anything. And so a few days later I said, okay, I need to know why do you love me? And everything had to do with who I was. Nothing about what I look like none of nothing about, it was just all my qualities and my strength. And, and I'm not even that person that I was even then, but he saw all those things in me. And that's what he loved is who I was. And that was the first time I'd ever heard somebody talk to me in that way and tell me who I was. And the other question they asked is, did he redeem all men? No, he did not redeem all men for me. (29:22) MEGAN: I noticed that too.  (29:33) KAREN: Yeah. I couldn't think fast enough. He did not redeem all men, but he is a reminder that there are good men out there. They're just very, very hard to find and that abusers are really good at mimicking good men. And they're hard to tell apart, which is a whole ‘nother conversation. But that was one, I really wasn't satisfied with my response because I didn't need a knight in shining armor. Like I said, I didn't date. He was the first man I dated. I did not date for five years, ‘cause I just couldn’t. (30:01) MEGAN: I highly recommend it by the way, at least two years, if not more, yeah, take that time. They also sort of insinuated that he taught you what love was. And he may have, because he's a very loving man. And he's an example to all of us women, like there are good men out there. We all love Tom. That's not the only way though, to learn what real love is. You can actually learn what real love is by watching what Jesus does. And that's how I learned how to raise my kids. That's real love to me. So sometimes we do show each other who Jesus is. We really can love each other that way. But that's not the only way for a woman to. (30:43) KAREN: Yeah. And that's a really good clarification because I actually said that because Tom loved me in a way that I didn't know was possible. I didn't know. And the clarification of what love is between a man and a woman and what it's supposed to be. I was married to a man for 30 years who took everything from me. And Tom just kept giving of himself, even when I couldn't give. And that like, this is like one day it just hit. This is what marriage is supposed to be like. Now it hasn't all been easy. We've had difficult times in our marriage. But that's different than having a hard marriage. You will go through difficult times because God never promised that everything would be nice and easy. I mean, I wish it was, but it's just not. We've experienced some challenges, but you go through it as a couple. He is not my leader, though I will tell you because he's a bodyguard. If we're in a crowd, I'm like, get in front of me and I'm grabbing your belt loop and I'm hanging on and you get us through the crowd. And because I don't do well in crowds. If he all of a sudden tells me hit the floor, I'm going to hit the floor because he knows something's going on that I have no idea about. But when he's talking to somebody about trauma and that, he's going to pay attention to me. He's going to let me lead in that. So we never talk about who's the leader because it's a partnership that we do together. And we don't talk about submission because it's just not a topic of conversation. I called it the S word for a really long time.  (32:23) MEGAN: Right? No kidding. No kidding. So we're going to have to wrap up in a minute, but I love your relationship with Tom. For those of you who don't know, Tom was attracted to Karen's strength. She's always been a strong woman. He has showed her love, but there are other ways for us to learn. We can learn love from just watching what Jesus did, you know, how he did things, not even looking at the words, but how he did them. So yeah, I thought that was interesting, but it was a great interview all in all. I hope that women listen to it and I know that it's important to you to just say, even if it reaches that one woman, that one woman who needs to hear it, that then it was all worth it. Right? And I love that about you, Karen. Okay. So I think that's it for today. We have so much. We could just go on and on, but we'll stop there and we'll do another podcast soon. Karen, thank you so much for what you did for so many women by having this conversation and being so brave and just holding your own. I just loved that. It was amazing. Thank you.  (33:34) KAREN: You're so welcome. Thank you.  (33:38) MEGAN: I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God, self, and others. If you'd like some one on one time with me unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode, and in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.

Key Takeaways: Megan and Karen introduce the returning Crisis Groups, run by Karen again this year! Karen describes the impact that running Crisis Groups has had on previous clients. Megan explains how Crisis Groups work as well as telling of the respectful and warm environment the Groups provide. Notable Quotes: "If we don't expand and invite other people into our healing, our healing is kind of like one-dimensional, and by having a crisis group...it's a way to engage, and there's something powerful in saying something out loud in a safe place that is so healing." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "It's true that there are so many perspectives that we all offer. So, if you kind of think about God being in each one of us, right, and we all have sort of a different flavor of that relationship, when we come together, like you and these three women, so all four of you, you're bringing in sort of a different aspect of God working in you." — Megan Owen "...when we step into healing, we are stepping out of our time and we're stepping into God's time, which means there's no time that a day is a thousand years and thousand years is a day." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "I will go to my grave...saying that people are uncomfortable with their own emotions and so they will be uncomfortable with your emotions. And so, when people are trying to shut you down or tell you you're wrong for feeling a certain way, it's because they don't even know how to be with their own emotions." — Megan Owen Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com Crisis Groups: Services (0:00) MEGAN: This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself.  (1:12) MEGAN: Hi, Karen, and everybody, welcome to Pretty Psych.  (1:17) KAREN: Hey, welcome, Megan. (1:20) MEGAN: Karen was just telling me why she's so excited about this podcast on groups. Take it away, Karen.  (1:27) KAREN: You can read about it. We can tell you about it, but to actually talk about how the engagement in a crisis groups, and crisis sounds like bad, that everything's always hard, but it's a way, a place, a safe place to verbalize what you're going through and then have other people in the group reflect back to you, and each one will see something or hear something that the other didn't. Yes, perspectives. Yes, different perspectives, and when we're traumatized, when we're harmed, it happens in relationship. It's from other people. It's not something we do to ourselves normally, so healing also comes in relationship, and so we need more than it's just being God or me and Jesus. If we don't expand and invite other people into our healing, our healing is kind of like one-dimensional, and by having a crisis group, which we usually have three participants and one facilitator, and it's a way to engage, and to sometimes there's something powerful in saying something out loud in a safe place that is so healing. (3:00) MEGAN: Yes, yes, so Karen loves groups, and we are getting ready to open up our crisis groups in the fall, and the reason crisis groups came into existence, I'm not sure, Karen, if you know this, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but Heather Elizabeth of Held and Healed, the nonprofit that helps women coming out of abuse, we were trying to think of a way to provide emotional first aid to women in crisis who could not afford therapy, and so what I ended up doing was I created a set of 12 videos, and Karen loves those videos too, and they each cover a topic, but they're only, I don't know, they're from 7 to 11 minutes long, something like that, because we, Karen and I understand, because we've been there, so when you work with us, you're not working with counselors and coaches who haven't been there. We know what this is like. We know what it's like to be in crisis and not have the bandwidth to watch an hour-long video or read a whole book to help you. This is first aid, and so we've created these short videos, and then like Karen said, in comes three women who are in crisis, and then Karen moderates, and we have this very specific format that we use, but everyone is able to reflect, so people are not just receiving guidance, counsel, and reflection. They're also receiving compassion and empathy, which as you just said, is healing, right?  (4:47) KAREN: Yes, absolutely, and that, there's so much power in it. We keep the, with three people, we keep it to an hour, and because there's a time limit, you have 10 minutes to talk and share and uninterrupted, and that, what it allows for is the talkers, and being a fellow talker, it keeps you on track, and because when your 10 minutes is up, it's up, and if you're not a talker, if you struggle to share, it allows, it kind of creates a safe place to be able to share, and I don't want to use the word force, because that's really not the right word, but it stretches your capacity to talk when maybe you would like, that you would prefer not to, you would like, you would rather sit in the background, and it gives you that safe place to be able to share, and then we have one minute of pause, where we're just praying into it, the other ones that are just listening, and then we have, each one can reflect, we try to keep it to two to three minutes, sometimes it's really short, sometimes it can get a little long, so we have to be careful of that time, because we are on time limit, this is a 60 minute session, and we want to make sure everybody has time to share.  (6:24) MEGAN: Yes. (6:25) KAREN: And we will help you in that first session on learning how to reflect back, I will start that process, so that you kind of understand what we're doing, if you've never been in a crisis group. (6:38) MEGAN: Well, what I love that you've said twice now is safe space, and that's what we need, and what do we mean by that, what we mean is that we will never judge you, right, nobody will judge you, nobody has really come in and started judging somebody else in one of these groups, but if they did, there's no doubt in my mind that Karen and I would say, okay, we're going to stop right there, we also, we may give us advice as moderators, you and I might, but we don't have everybody just giving advice. (7:14) KAREN: No.  (7:15) MEGAN: And that's what we mean by safe, right?  (7:18) KAREN: Yeah, yeah, we don't want to give advice, now there are times last fall where someone wanted advice, they needed like a specific, maybe it was related to a court date that was coming up, and they needed advice, and so that's okay, that's when someone, if they have a similar experience, can speak into that, but we don't, and we also don't want to over spiritualize, or throw out scriptures, we want to be very careful with that, it's not that it's wrong, but sometimes we can throw out band-aids,  (8:02) MEGAN: Yeah, yeah.  (8:03) KAREN: And that don't really help at that moment, and so we do want to be careful of that, so being a word girl, it occurred to me that we talk about crisis, and of course, then I thought, maybe I should just look this word up, and see what it says, so what do we mean by crisis, and it says it's a stage in a sequence of events at which the trend of all future events, for better or worse, are determined, that it's a turning point, so crisis is a turning point, whoa, I didn't think of that, we think that that's where we just sometimes live, it's a condition of instability, or there's danger, but it's leading to a decisive change.  (8:57) MEGAN: I love that, I kind of thought of like a hinge, or a threshold, when you said that, like it's not necessarily, oh, this is horrible, everything's going to be bad, even though it may feel that way in the moment, right?  (9:11) KAREN: Yes, we're leading towards a turning point, a decisive change, and even though it causes upheaval, sometimes there needs to be an upheaval, like Jesus turning over the tables, there needs to be a table that in our life that may need to be overturned, because we may be believing something that isn't true about ourselves, because it's really not our voice, it's a critical voice, that's usually tied to people who have said things about us, and to us, that we have taken on, and we really believe it's us, and so what if it's not you, what if it's another voice?  (9:54) MEGAN: Yeah, I really like this, because it ties into something I talk about often, which is cruciformity, that cruciform way of life, which is our lot, you know, when Jesus dies on the cross, he's not just showing us his love, this is his love for us, right, but he's also showing us our path, and he talks about that when he talks about the seed going into the ground and breaking open, he's talking about the bread being broken, and the cycle of that cruciform cycle is that we're crucified, died, buried, and then we rise again, and we have all these cycles of that throughout our whole lives, right, so what you and I are doing, and what you're doing specifically with the crisis groups, is we're going to get into that dark place with you before you get to rise again, so that's the piece of the cycle where we will enter in with you, which is just like what Jesus did, right, he entered into the tomb of where Lazarus was, he went to the place where the man was cutting himself, to the catacombs, to the tombs, and that's where we're going to meet you, and we're going to remind you that new life is coming, that we don't stay in the tomb forever, right?  (11:16) KAREN: Right, I love how you said that, it's perfect,  (11:20) MEGAN: I love that, well let me read the 12 weeks, this is okay, or some of them, these are some of the topics that are covered, now the caveat is when you're in crisis, you may not have time to watch the video, and you may not want to talk about the video, because you're in crisis, and there are a lot of things going on, and you need to talk about those things, and those things always trump everything else, so all right, so the first thing we do is everybody sort of reads through this understanding of the confidentiality, and the art of reflection, rather than maybe giving advice or a band-aid, right, like before you come, we sort of make sure everybody understands that, and then the first video is a theology of suffering, which is kind of what I just said in a nutshell, is this idea of new life, and what we're doing, then we share stories, so we share our stories, and I share my story, and I share my story from when I was, it was 2021, and I had COVID, so I share it kind of to show that I am also human and vulnerable, and then everybody has a chance to share their story, then we talk about cognitive dissonance, we go into boundaries, family of origin, we talk about our kids, self-compassion, glimmers, and nervous system regulation, isolation, we talk about narcissism, we debrief, right?  (12:58) KAREN: Yeah, like Megan said earlier, the videos are short, but they really do create conversations of things maybe that you haven't talked about before, and obviously, if something's happened that week, you know, that trumps everything. However, it is still a good thing. Part of listening to the videos is it keeps you engaged, and you know what other people are talking about, even if you're not going to talk about it. That's why it really is important, but we understand busy weeks. However, we do make things a priority if they're important to us, and if you're taking the time to participate in a group, you want to watch because otherwise you're kind of lost when other people are talking.  (13:48) MEGAN: That's true. Yeah, that's true. So Karen and I have been, we've been leading these groups for a while. Sometimes we switch videos in and out depending on what's happening. I have an Advent or Christmas one for when crisis groups are overlapping with the holidays because we know what that's like to have, to have your first Christmas in the middle of chaos, right? And so we try to be fluid with what the needs are as well, and then we do try to teach this art of reflection, which I think is a really powerful tool. You hit on something. You talked about that minute. We take a minute to hold sacred space. What do you notice with that, Karen? When we take a moment to hold space after somebody shares, so somebody shares for 10 minutes, we all close our eyes. We hold space. It honors the story that was just shared, right? So there's an honoring aspect to it, and then I don't know what you do. When I hold space for that minute, I just kind of let come up what comes up, and sometimes I might get a picture of that client that's encouraging in my mind, and I might share that. Sometimes something is lifted out from what they said, and I can speak to that, or something I've noticed. What is that sacred pause like for you?  (15:15) KAREN: I'm usually reflecting because part of what we do when someone is talking, the others are the ones that are not. We are taking notes about things that jumped out at us that they said, and often I have two pens because there's something I want to speak into, but even though I may not know what it is at that time, but there's an arrow, there's a circle that says, wow, this was big of what they said. So everybody takes notes of what stands out to them, and it's always amazing to me what stands out to each individual person. So in that place of holding space, I'm looking at those notes, and I'm praying over those notes about what to say, what was stands out, what's there that maybe, I don't want to say that they're missing, but that maybe what they're seeing isn't clear. (16:20) MEGAN: Well, I know what you mean. Sometimes we have these blocks because the pain is so great in that moment, you can't see around it. And if there's somebody else there who says, okay, I actually can sort of see around that block, and I just want to share with you what I'm seeing, is that kind of what you're saying?  (16:39) KAREN: Yes. There's one that comes to mind, this person had spoken, and then the person reflecting back, she saw something like none of us saw. And it was so big. It was a breakthrough moment for the one that was talking because she did not see it that way. And it really was a pivotal moment.  (17:08) MEGAN: Yeah, that's amazing. It's true that there are so many perspectives that we all offer. So if you kind of think about God being in each one of us, right, and we all have sort of a different flavor of that relationship, when we come together, like you and these three women, so all four of you, you're bringing in sort of a different aspect of God working in you. Maybe you're in a different place. Maybe you've been through that. So sometimes it's really encouraging to hear, oh my gosh, yeah, we try not to bring in the, oh, me too. And I'm going through that also. And I know how you feel. We try not to bring that in. But every once in a while, it's kind of encouraging to hear that somebody survived that, right?  (17:53) KAREN: Yeah, yeah. Often what instead of saying me too is what you said resonates with me. (18:00) MEGAN: Yeah, yeah.  (18:01) KAREN: And it's a way of saying it and not making it about you. And it's really easy to do. I'll be honest, it is something I struggle with all the time.  (18:12) Mgean: Me too.  (18:14) KAREN: Right? All of a sudden, it all becomes about me and I don't want to do that. And I actually, one of the first crisis groups I did, or it wasn't even a crisis group, it was a different kind of group, same format. And they called me out on it. And I was so grateful for that, because sometimes we don't realize what we're doing. And if we can't be called out on something, there's a bigger problem. But that's a way to say it. What you said really resonates with me. Then it doesn't become about you. But then they also get that, oh, wow. So it's not just me. And then it allows you to add more depth.  (19:01) MEGAN: I think there's a difference between making it all about yourself when somebody shares, because sometimes what somebody hears is, oh, your story is more important than what I just shared. There's a difference between that and saying, you're connected to me as a human. This is a human interconnectedness. You're not alone in this, right? That's what we're trying to differentiate here. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So yes. So we honor all of the stories, lots and lots of honor. And I hear back so much positive. It's so fun to be connected to these ladies because they stay connected after the groups and then they keep encouraging each other. But you and I often get to see what's happening in their lives and some of the wins that are coming for them or, you know, found a place to live or I got a job here or isn't that amazing to be able to experience that also?  (19:59) KAREN: Yes. I had a group kind of like in the spring and we ended before, before summer came. The group's 12 weeks long and they both want to come back for the next, the next part, because they really, even though this group was just two people, because they both needed it, we couldn't, couldn't bring in if there wasn't a third person to bring in. And so with the two of them, they looked forward every week to that group that it was something that they made a priority unless it was really something like family or they were going out of town. And then what happened is the person that could be there, if they wanted to meet, they still got to meet, but we had a whole hour between just the two of us. Now, when you have three people, that doesn't happen because if you have three where if someone can't make it, we may, we'll continue that group. But if it's two that can't make it, then we will just cancel it and we will, and it just moves out the 12 weeks. (21:14) MEGAN: Right, right. I just thought of something else, and as you were talking about, you know, the power of a dyad of maybe there just being two people there or maybe one person there, which doesn't happen very often. It's better if everybody comes. (21:33) KAREN: Yes.  (21:34) MEGAN: But this art of reflection that is very specific to Mountain City, we have, we have a specific way to make sure that everybody feels seen and heard. There's power in just being heard, right? When you say something and someone says, oh, let me reflect back to you what I'm hearing you say, being seen is so healing. And, and so many times in groups, somebody, I will see somebody just weep for the healing joy that comes from somebody recognizing where they are. Yeah, that's just powerful, right?  (22:17) KAREN: Yes, yes, it is so powerful. And, you know, you would think it, you know, it's just like a blip, but it's not a blip. We've talked about this before that when we step into healing, we are stepping out of our time and we're stepping into God's time, which means there's no time that a day is a thousand years and thousand years is a day. God can do so much in this place of healing because we've kind of stepped outside of that time. And so we think that things have to go on for like hours or it, no, it doesn't have to because everything is the healing is multiplied. I'm not sure that's the right word. I want to say.  (23:05) MEGAN: It has a ripple effect.  (23:06) KAREN: Yes. (23:07) MEGAN: Yeah. Yeah. And it, you know, the person who leaves the group that can be a loaves and fishes moment where they work with God and it sort of touches every aspect of their lives. And it just, cause we're not limited, right? It's not limiting. I love that, Karen. I love that. Well, tell me how many groups will you be taking this fall? What are you looking at? How can people find it?  (23:24) KAREN: Right now I'm looking at two groups to start. So that six people, however, those will be two evening groups, a Tuesday and a Thursday. However, I am open for a day group because I am at, there are times for some that the daytime works better than evening. I don't have a set date on that because I will literally just need to see the interest in that to be able to open up a daytime. It could be probably morning. So if we need to add another group, we can, I am flexible on that, but we're going to start with the two groups on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We're going to start the week of September 23rd. So September 23rd and 25th was our one. We will start. We're getting a late start because of some other commitments that I have for the beginning of the month and they will go, like I said, 12 weeks. The cost is $30 a week. If therapy is, you know, or coaching is not in your budget, this makes it more affordable for people to join and it's easier to budget.  (25:02) MEGAN: Well, and yeah, and that's why it was created. $30 a week for Karen's expertise is pretty amazing. And then my videos also, you can still be part of the group if you're doing the one-on-one therapy and you're in crisis. I'm just going to admit right now, Karen is way better with crisis than I am. She does a lot more with crisis. She's comfortable in that place. Not that I'm not comfortable, but I've just kind of moved to a different genre, I guess, sort of a niche area of inner healing, but she's got you. She's amazing. We've received only positive feedback from all of these groups and I trust Karen with my life. So I hope that if you are in crisis and you need some emotional first aid, that you will sign up for these groups and bond, really bond with other people who know what it's like to be in your shoes. Not just the other participants, but Karen knows what it's like too. And I know what it's like also. Sometimes I think that well-meaning Christians will look at somebody who's drowning in a pool and toss a devotional at them. That's, that's that bandaid thing. It's not helpful. Like that's not helpful when you need basic needs met, right? Or when you need to know how to manage your five-year-old who's completely dysregulated, or when you are trying to wrap your mind around how people in your own family can turn against you. Reading a devotional, that's great, but what we need is that stability, that first aid.  (26:39) KAREN: Yes. I would rather rip a band-aid off than put one on. And because sometimes the band-aid is like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound or a broken leg. (26:54) MEGAN: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just had a memory of, I was really young. I feel like I was pregnant with Mila, who's now 21. So it was a long time ago, but it was my first introduction to how evangelicalism could actually be harmful. And what we had was there was a woman that I knew who was helping me with like, we were doing sort of this orphan ministry with these kids that were coming over from Belarus. We were doing that together and I was real pregnant with Mila and had a toddler. And during the course of that, she found out that her husband had been sexually abusing their daughter for years, their 16 year old daughter. So she separated from him or she actually pushed him out. The church housed him after bailing him out of jail. They housed him in their extra like parsonage. And they ostracized her and her three children because, and they would, I would go over there and be with her. I helped her pack. I didn't really know what to do exactly. But I did know that the church people were saying things like, she's unhinged, she's out of control, she's crying in front of her kids. And I remember thinking, of course she is. They want her to behave well right now. Like what is it they want her to do? She needed emotional first aid and that church was failing her big time and they did fail her big time. (28:40) KAREN: And that was 21 years ago and it hasn't changed. It hasn't really changed. We're getting really bad advice and told things because we want to keep it pretty and it's, none of it is pretty and it's bad. And we need to acknowledge that of course you're crying, of course you're angry. I'm always concerned if a woman is not angry after what she's been through. I'm concerned. There's a problem here. Well, I forgave them. No, you can't forgive something that you haven't even dealt with, that you haven't even acknowledged. That's one of the biggest band-aids that I love, ripping off. That's a fast one. That's not a gentle peel it back slowly. This one is stuck in the hair and you need to just rip it off and it's going to hurt. But it's like, we don't talk about forgiveness. That's an end of the line thing. We want you, the whole part of grief is anger. Bitterness is tied to that because we should be bitter over something that happened to us that was so horrible. It's not a place you're going to live or dwell in. You're not going to build a house out of bitterness or anger, but it is something that you have to experience and to be able to let it loose in a safe place and that it's okay. (30:32) MEGAN: Yeah, I don't know how many times I've said to a client, is it okay that you feel angry right now? And sometimes they say, yes, it is. And there's the band-aid's been ripped. But other times they say, I guess, you know, and I say, yes, it is okay for you to be angry. I will go to my grave, Karen, saying that people are uncomfortable with their own emotions and so they will be uncomfortable with your emotions. And so when people are trying to shut you down or tell you you're wrong for feeling a certain way, it's because they don't even know how to be with their own emotions. They're just trying to make themselves comfortable. And so we, Karen and I, are comfortable in the uncomfortable. And that's what our amazing teacher and somebody we both love, Diane Langberg, talks about is being able to listen to the unspeakable. And that's what we're doing in these crisis groups, right?  (31:39) KAREN: Yes. Yes. It's so important because most of us didn't have a safe place, or we tried to share with somebody and they pushed us away. Because as Megan said, they're not comfortable with their own emotions, or they're actually going through something that they haven't even been able to express yet. And they don't even understand why they're pushing people away. I've pushed people away when I was very unhealthy because their emotions and their stuff so overwhelmed me that I just shoved them off a cliff, so to speak. And that's what it feels like when someone does that to us. That's why the crisis groups are so important because nobody's going to push you off a cliff because what your story is too overwhelming.  (32:33) MEGAN: That's right. That's right. And we're not going to correct your behavior. You shouldn't feel this way or just trust God more. That's not going to happen.  (32:41) KAREN: Yeah. And we don't react if you use colorful language.  (32:49) MEGAN:That's right. (32:51) KAREN: Because sometimes that colorful language is the only word that fits at that moment.  (32:55) MEGAN: Yeah. Sometimes there's no other word, right?  (32:58) Karen: There's no other words. And so that it's you can just come just as you are, or who you think you are, and connect. That's what we want. It's about connection. (33:14) MEGAN: Yes. And also, Karen, when you just said that, I thought about sometimes, again, well-meaning churches will say, come as you are, come as you are. But as soon as you come as you are, they start trying to make you into something you're not, right? That's not going to happen in these crisis groups. We're not going to try to make you into anything else. The connection, like what you just said, is what's important. So, all right. So, sign up for our crisis groups. You can find them on our website. We're going to include the link. Our main website is www.mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. You can read all about it there. But go ahead and look in the caption and you'll find the link. Show us your interest and we will get you in. We can't wait to see you there. Karen, thank you so much. You are amazing.  (34:06) KAREN: Thank you so much, Megan.  (34:09) MEGAN: I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought, as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God, self, and others. If you'd like some one on one time with me, unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode. And in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.

      About Megan: Megan Owen:  Fully certified since 2012 as a crisis pastoral counselor, Megan has been successfully companioning clients all over the country while facilitating their self-growth. She offers crisis & spiritual process groups and individual christian therapy, specializing in abuse, trauma, and dissociative disorders, utilizing therapeutic models such as Development Needs Meeting Strategy (DNMS), Internal Family Systems (IFS), and Eye Movement Desensitization & Reprocessing Therapy (EMDR). Megan has written curriculum for a domestic violence non-profit advocacy program, spiritual processing groups & identity based therapeutic course. She has also been featured on many podcasts & conferences, such as Courage 365 with Ashley Easter, etc.Megan resides in Denver, CO, with her four adored and adoring children. She loves her job and will walk through the fire to help a client find healing.  Episode Summary: On this episode of Pretty Psych, join us as we discuss the Inner Child and the modalities that MCCC uses to help heal it. This week, Karen and Megan dig deep and teach about DNMS, or Developmental Needs Meeting Strategy, a modality. Karen shares her deep, enriched experience that happened recently.  Key Takeaways: Karen discusses her spiritual experience that happened during a session of Sacred Circles Megan explains where these occurrences come from and how we help to manage the emotions that come with it.  Megan and Karen both work together to explain the significance and complexity behind DMNS. Notable Quotes: "I'm not sure there are bad emotions. I've heard it said, [that] we have good emotions [and] bad emotions. Our emotions are not good. They're just our emotions." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "The other thing that we do right at the onset is we invite resources that seem to be inside the client there to help guide, protect, supervise, and unconditionally love the wounded parts." — Megan Owen "It's so freeing that God loves me so much that He's willing to take me to places I never thought I could ever go and that He's so aware of my capacity and that He knows when I am ready to face something that I haven't been able to face." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "Ego state theory is basically the idea that we all have different sub-personalities or parts of ourselves or ego states with different views of reality. Now, I'm not talking about dissociative disorders. That's an extreme but everybody has what we call an internal family system." — Megan Owen Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com Shirley Jean Schmidt course: "The Developmental Needs Meeting Strategy": DNMS Institute, LLC Dive into this episode for insights into Inner Child Healing through DNMS, and stay tuned for more empowering discussions on Pretty Psych. Episode Transcript (0:03) Megan: This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself.  (1:07) Megan: Good morning, Karen.  Karen: Good morning, Megan. (1:13) Megan: I'm so excited that we are going to have another podcast on Pretty Psych. Karen and I, we love to talk to each other. Wouldn't you agree? In fact, I have to say, wait, stop. We need to record this because it's so good, right?  (1:30) Karen: Yes, a 15-minute conversation could turn into two hours.  (1:34) Megan: Well, Karen, I stopped you mid-sentence because you were telling me something so exciting that happened at Sacred Circles this past Sunday.  (1:42) Karen: Yes, I was surprised because this is an event in my life that I have visited many, many times in many, many different ways. When I was 10 years old, I was sexually assaulted by a man that went to our church. I did not grow up in church, so this was a church that my sister found.  (2:02) Karen: We went to Sunday school, and he was the friendly grandpa to everybody. Then he would watch us on Saturdays when my mom had to work. She was a single mom. What I didn't realize is he had been grooming me all along, even with my sister and brother there. One day, he sent them out to play and kept me behind. I have dealt with the emotional part of this, but Sunday night as we were engaging our younger selves, the Lord took me back to this little girl. I was kind of surprised and at first thought, maybe I don't want to go here, but yet I did because after it happened, when I was 10, my mom asked me, she needed a babysitter, and she asked me if I wanted to go to his house. I was like, no, I did not want to go back there, but she never asked why.  (3:01) Karen: She saw a change in me. I wasn't the same little girl that she knew, but it never occurred to her to even ask like, what's wrong with you? Did something happen? Why don't you want to go to his house? To engage this little girl as my 71-year-old self, this was 61 years ago, that I could talk to her and tell her all the things that my mother didn't, that I could hold her hand while we were actually watching what happened. Not everything because I don't remember everything and I don't need to. I'm an adult, kind of know what happened, but to be able to, for the two of us to stand there and hold each other's hand and comfort her and mother her in a way that I didn't even know I had within me and to talk to her and tell her all the things she needed to hear. It was so powerful and I couldn't even share it that night on Sunday night.  (4:04) Karen: I couldn't share it because it was still so kind of raw and I wanted to keep it to myself for the time being, but it was so necessary. I have visited this moment in my life so many times. It's like when you think that you have something that you have dealt with and you think it's one and done, oh, it's not because the Lord went and took it into a whole different way and it wasn't scary. It wasn't traumatizing. It was a needed moment for this little girl and for adult me to experience. (4:45) Megan: Wow, Karen.  (4:47) Karen: I know, I know.  (4:49) Megan: Oh my goodness. (4:51) Karen: To say it out loud now, it's so freeing that God loves me so much that He's willing to take me to places I never thought I could ever go and that He's so aware of my capacity and that He knows when I am ready to face something that I haven't been able to face. That's what's really the most powerful thing of all.  (5:16) Megan: Thank you so much for sharing this. I'm overwhelmed and a little verklempt, I have to say. I had no idea, of course, that this was going on and I think that that is the beauty of what we do with different modalities. It's, we open that up and then God, you and God do what you and God need to do, you know, and I've heard you say more than once, you know, I don't need to remember all the details and we don't. (5:47) Megan: I think it can be frustrating for our clients sometimes because they have symptoms of something they don't understand. We are always working on these things and we're always allowing the Holy Spirit to work on these things and you give me hope and all of us hope that we'll keep doing it. At 71 years old, we will maybe even grow in capacity to manage these things that have been so painful and you're such a beautiful healer and we have to keep healing in order to be able to help others to heal as well. So, thank you for that.  (6:23) Karen: Yeah, you're welcome. Absolutely and the thing of it is with memories, you and I have talked about this before, is there is a part of me that has held those memories that I could not as a 10-year-old comprehend and as an adult, I can use my own imagination that I didn't have to hold the memory of what actually happened. This other part of me held that memory and I had a recent experience where Jesus told that part, you don't even have to hold this memory anymore. I can hold that for you and that was also a very healing moment that the part that was holding it doesn't have to do that anymore, that it can actually relinquish that and the strength of that part of me that could hold that memory is powerful.  (7:18) Megan: Yes, yes. I saw that at our retreat also. This is part of DNMS. It sounds a little bit like shadow work. There's also an IFS component to it. We're delving into all the abbreviations today. That's what we decided we were going to do and that part that holds the memories. I see that part all the time in the work that I do with developmental needs meeting strategy and I just ran into one recently as I was doing this work with a client and the client asked this part, are you tired of holding these memories and the part said, yes, I'm tired and it was a very young part. (7:58) Megan: Let's go ahead and jump in, Karen. Karen and I, of course, we use different modalities and we have therapist friends who use other modalities but at Mountain City, one of the main modalities we use is called developmental needs meeting strategy or DNMS and this is an ego state therapy. (8:20) Karen: And you take that and simplify that for us to be able to understand how it works.  (8:28) Megan: Absolutely. So the DNMS, developmental needs meeting strategy, is one of many therapy approaches based on this ego state theory. So let's talk about ego state theory. Ego state theory is basically the idea that we all have different sub-personalities or parts of ourselves or ego states with different views of reality. Now, I'm not talking about dissociative disorders. That's an extreme but everybody has what we call an internal family system. So maybe another way to approach that would be that we all have different states of mind, okay? So a state of mind is just simply the behaviors, beliefs, emotions, and sensations present at a single moment in time. For example, you might be in the state of mind of being a mama in that moment or you might be in a state of mind while you're reading a book and you might be calm and maybe relaxed. (9:44) Megan: Maybe you have other times where you're in a state of mind where you are alert, worried, anxious, or maybe tired. We all have these different states of mind. Now to take that further, these states of mind, and I'm using kind of quotes here, those can also be parts of us like a younger part. So we are whole, but say we can be sort of sliced up into different parts. (10:13) Megan: Here's four-year-old, here's six-year-old, here's 10-year-old, here's 22-year-old. So they can have ages or they can be angry parts or defender parts and guardian parts or protector parts. So they don't have to be an age. And everybody has these because we are complex humans. And the reason I'm comfortable pulling out a younger part like we did on Sunday night is because God is outside of time and we are in time. And so God can see all of us. God can see baby Megan, God can see Megan now, God can see older Megan, Grandma Megan, you know, God can see all those different parts of us. And so if God can see all those different parts of us as a whole, God can heal those different parts of us. (11:05) Megan: And we don't need to really be afraid of going back because sometimes those parts get stuck, right?  (11:10) Karen: Yes.  (11:11) Megan: Okay, so I'm well aware of the fact that I'm trying to explain a very complex story here. It's really hard. It's kind of like, once you start talking about it, you run the risk of losing the essence of it, kind of like our soul, once we start trying to define it, you know. So ego state therapies, they aim to help wounded ego states heal. Oh, here's another way I could say it, Karen. (11:41) Megan: So when I do EMDR, we take a traumatic memory, just one memory, and we reprocess it over and over, bring in different perspectives, connect the brain hemispheres, and then it sort of files itself where it needs to be. That's great. So maybe a client comes with six or eight traumatic memories, and we can do these amazing healing sessions. But what about the humans who have traumatized seasons in life, like their whole childhood? You can't do 8,000 EMDRs for that childhood. So instead of doing EMDR for traumatic memories, we work on helping the ego state to heal, the child inside to heal with reparenting.  (12:31) Karen: Yes, that makes so much sense, because I think sometimes we make our healing so complicated that we have to follow a certain path. That's why I think there's so many modalities that we can kind of mix them, that we can use them. Because you're right, if you have someone who had a really traumatic childhood, they all come clumped together, because our emotions and our memories kind of stockpile those and see them as one giant event versus individual events, because our emotions doesn't track time, memories. It's all clumped into that one place, because there's no sequence of time. (13:21) Karen: It's why we get triggered, because it keeps activating and compiling, and it goes bigger and bigger. And if you imagine a cup holding all those memories and emotions tied to that, and then we never know which drop is going to go and overflow that cup, and it spills over. And so then you don't have to necessarily go into every single event, because your brain doesn't know there's a hundred events. It just thinks it's one big, giant event.  (13:57) Megan: Yes, Karen, exactly. Exactly. And there's your ego state. And so it also works really well with attachment trauma, because of what you just said, it's the wounded ego state. And I have this great big thick book by Shirley Jean Schmidt, who developed the DNMS, Ego State Therapy Interventions, Prepare Attachment Wounded Adults for EMDR. So it's gentler than EMDR, because as you and I have talked about before, EMDR can be kind of brutal, and it can undo you. Maybe you're not ready for it.  (14:40) Karen: I agree, because when we step into a memory, and we're not ready, we're just re-traumatized. (14:50) Megan: Exactly, exactly. So it's a really good prep. And sometimes I never get to EMDR, and that's fine. Let me tell you a little bit about how I set the stage. So even with this great big book and all the training that I've done on it, like you said, we pull in what we know, we've done this long enough to understand the nuances, we're not afraid to veer off a little bit. And so it's kind of turned from a pretty strident, procedural modality into Megan style. (15:28) Megan: So I lean heavily into the Holy Spirit and into intuition. And I listen to the client, I'm following our client's lead. And so the first thing that we do is we create a safe space. And this is where we use that divine imagination that you talk about, the power of the imagination that God has given us. And the client will create a safe, wonderful, fun place for all of the wounded parts to hang out. Not to tuck them away or get them out of the way, but almost like a fun waiting room, but with a lot more fun things than a pediatrician's waiting room. So there might be like a beach, and nobody's allowed there except the client, the parts, and the resources, which I'll get to in just a minute. So all of the wounded parts come into this place, and so say it's a beach, so maybe the beach has a swimming pool, or horse stables, or a big kitchen with lots of food, or sleeping rooms, or tree houses, that's popular, or maybe like a little place to hide out and read, or forts, you know, those sorts of things, and we invite all of the parts into it. The other thing that we do right at the onset is we invite resources that seem to be inside the client there to help guide, protect, supervise, and unconditionally love the wounded parts. So these resources could be parts of self, like the mom part of me, when I had to go through this in order to do the training several years ago. I had a grandma version of myself that came in to help reparent the kids that were wounded. It can be parts of self. (1:02) Megan: It can be people we've known from the past that are stored into our neurons. We're not, you know, inviting in a foreign something into our minds. It's memories that are stored in our neurons. It can be like a loving teacher, or an aunt, or just, it's basically, if it were me, it would be Team Megan, here to love all of these parts unconditionally, support, guide, help answer any hard questions. And the reason that I do that, Karen, is so that I'm not inserting anything. We end up talking to the part, which I know you do in the Part Sync also. Once everybody's very, very stable, comfortable, which the whole first session is just setting this up. And then we start with the next, which is talking, maybe talking to one of the wounded parts. Again, very carefully, very gently, depending on where the client is. (18:13) Megan: So, say a wounded part presents that's a seven-year-old. Well, we will make sure that seven-year-old is connected to the resources so that I can say, well, what I see in front of me is a beautiful child made in God's image, but don't take my word for it. I want you to check in with your resources and see what they say, too. Now, a lot of times our clients want Jesus in there.  (18:38) Megan: Sometimes they want Jesus from the Chosen or Jesus from the shack. You know, there's a specific Jesus, but not always because there's been so much religious abuse. But when the client goes in and says, hey, resources, you know, mama version of me or Jesus or whomever, what do you see when you look at me? Now they're drawing from inside of themselves and that's how they learn to take care of themselves. And that's why it's called needs meeting because I teach our clients how to meet their own needs because they have everything in them that they need.  (19:27) Karen: Wow. That is really powerful when you think about it. It's so powerful that we can engage with those parts of ourselves. Because honestly, throughout life, we create these defense mechanisms, which is a really terrible word, I think. I think it's more that these parts of us, as they take that mechanism as self-protection, because as children, we don't know how to protect ourselves. But I see how God has created the ability for us to have these parts that hold these. And they often work very unhealthy because they're wounded parts, very wounded. And by DNMS, these modalities allows us to engage with that part, not because they're bad or they need to disappear, but so they can work in a healthy way versus an unhealthy way.  (20:25) Exactly. We don't ever want to exile. We have what we call the exiled parts. They're still there, but we just don't want to look at them or maybe they're carrying some of the bad memories. And that's a lot of the work again, what we did at the retreat. And sometimes we do that in sacred circles where we just try to bring in those parts that we don't necessarily like or that we've relegated. And I've talked about this before. I think the last year's retreat, the retreat before this one, we want all of the parts to come to the table because that's how Jesus is. Jesus wants everyone at the table. Everybody gets a seat at the table. And so I use that example when I'm working with clients. (21:12) Megan: We don't abandon our parts. We don't turn our back on our parts, on even the meanest protector parts out there. They are doing their job. They think that they're helping. The inner critic thinks that it's helping, you know? And so one of the things I say often, it's you've had enough abandonment. You're not going to do it to yourself anymore. And so it really is an extreme act of love to bring in the parts that we don't like or that we've been told aren't likable or that have become adept guardians because we needed that at some point.  (21:57) Megan: It's actually really smart that we've developed those parts. And I'll say to those parts, I'll say, you're very smart, you know?  (22:05) Karen: Yes, because think about that inner critic, those parts think that they're their own individual. They have no idea that they're actually mimicking what they've been told about themselves. They don't know that it's not them. It's the critical voices from people that parents, bullies, even well-meaning people who said the wrong thing, you know, it's someone, they don't have to necessarily be abusive, but what they said made such a mark on us at that age. And then they mimic that. They repeat it throughout their lives and they don't know it's them.  (22:50) Megan: Right. That's what, and that's exactly what Shirley Schmidt says in some of the training is that we switch the dominance. So there's a dominant, maybe there's a dominant inner critic that thinks it's helping. And we need to bring that part understanding. This is why you're doing what you're doing. We know you're trying to help. You think you're helping and you did help at one point, but we don't need to do this anymore because that person's not in our lives anymore. (23:20) Megan: You know, that sort of thing. And then we switch the dominance and we do that through the DNMS. So when we have maybe some sort of a breakthrough, such as just to use my example earlier, you know, I see a beautiful child of God when I look at you. And then that seven-year-old will ask the resources, well, what do you say? And they share in, in that person's imagination, what they see, then I'll say, does that feel good? And they say, yes. And that's when we use the alternating bilateral stimulation now, which is the light bar going back and forth. And I will say, let's let that grow. Let's let that grow. And we just keep switching the dominance.  (24:01) And that's the difference between IFS and the DNMS. The DNMS is about the business of reparenting with what you have inside of you. That's the big difference. So IFS is, it's unburdening the wounded parts of yourself. The DNMS has an emphasis on reparenting through loving connection and needs meeting. So we clear up the misunderstandings, just like you just said with the inner critic. So many times, Karen, I've had clients thinking the inner critic is like a voice of a demon or something like that. And they're just trying to shut it down. And that just makes it louder and worse because it's not demonic. It's a part of you. (24:48) Karen: It's rarely demonic and that it's, but we've been taught that in some circles, Christian circles, we, everything's a demon and we're giving the enemy way more credit than they deserve. It deserves, he deserves or whatever. We're told that we should ignore our emotions, that they're bad. And it's like, I'm not sure there are bad emotions. I've heard that said, we have good emotions, bad emotions. Our emotions are not good. They're just our emotions.  (25:24) Karen: And they're a barometer for whatever's going on in our life that we can't even put words to yet. Because again, our emotions doesn't have words. It doesn't understand words. Our emotions understand tone and melody and vibration. It reads body language. And so we have to like, put that together with the part of us that has all the words because that part doesn't have an experience, doesn't have the emotion. So it's why we want to use those other parts to be able to come together, to put words to those emotions.  (26:02) Megan: Yes, yes, yes. I love all of that. Exactly. Exactly. So that's what we're doing over here. And that is, it's a big part of what I do and I love it. I love to get to see just what you described. I talked to that child. I let that child know who they are and that it wasn't their fault. And that's so powerful. It changes everything for us.  (26:30) Karen: It does. And then even for those that are ready to be able to have that part engaged with Jesus, to connect with Jesus, because we think because we know Jesus and that we classify as as a Christian or a believer, that every part of us knows Jesus. And that's not the case. There are parts of us that are afraid of Jesus because we were taught to be afraid of him because God is angry. I read something or I saw something today. I didn't read all of it, but that some of us believe God's abusive, because we grew up with this God who had all these rules and was angry. And that if you violate them and a God of judgment, and not that he doesn't judge, but it's not the whole picture. And so we make him as cruel as those who harmed us. And the opposite is true. And to be able to break that belief, to strip it away and see that Jesus just loves us. He sees the beauty in us. He sees the darkness. He sees the ugliness, not that we have ugly, but those parts of us that believe that they are ugly, that if actually someone were to look inside of us, they would be repulsed by us. And the opposite is true. (28:09) Megan: Yeah, that's right. It's so heartbreaking when I hear people describing God as though God is a narcissist, right? It needs some sort of supply from us. You, Karen, you're so wonderful about speaking of God as love, because He is just love. So thank you for that. Okay, let's end with just a little exercise that our listeners can do on their own. You want to do it with me, Karen?  (28:39) Karen: Okay. (28:40) Megan: Okay. All right. So we're going to close our eyes for a minute. Take some deep breaths. Do that a couple more times. And now I'm just going to ask our listeners to picture before them, in their mind's eye, that little version of you, any age. Usually what pops up first is what we need to work on. Don't edit. And we close our eyes so we can access our subconscious. (29:26) Megan: God is working in that subconscious of yours. And as you hold that view in your mind of that little one, go ahead and take your hands and cup your cheeks like you would a little child. And I want you to feel the pressure of your hands on your little face, each finger as an act of love for this little one. And I just want you to remind that child that they are loved. And I want you to speak these words, I see you. And I hear you. And it's okay to be human. And it makes so much sense that you're feeling. And then you finish the sentence. And I just want you to tell this little part that they are safe now, that you're going to take care of them going forward, and that it wasn't their fault. And now I want you to tell that little part that you are going to be the greatest protector and nurturer of that part from now on. And then I want you to go ahead and in  your mind, just wrap that little one up in your arms and hold them. Feel their little bodies relax against yours. Because healing is coming. And when you're ready, you can come back. (31:59) Karen: Oh, wow.  (32:02) Megan: Karen.  (32:04) Karen: Went to an age that I've never been. Five-year-old me. And but all I could see was darkness. I couldn't see her. Because I have so few memories of that time. Yes. And to be able to kind of know because I know where we lived at the time on Camp Pendleton. And, and even though I don't have the memory of it, I am pretty sure it was probably from an episode after my father was probably angry. You know, he would go into a rage and be physical and yell, even though I have no memories of this. My brother who's two years younger remembers the yelling, I have no memories of it. But I think that's why she's in the dark. I just kind of wonder if she went into the closet and hid in the dark.  (32:57) Megan: Oh, wow. (32:59) Karen: Which is why I couldn't see anything because she's probably, you know, her hands over her ears and huddled in a closet is all I can think of is. But I have never engaged with this part before.  (33:17) Megan: Karen, I'm so glad we did that. Now, if you're listening, and Karen already knows this. And if you did that exercise, and you had a profound experience like Karen just had, you can find a photo of that child, maybe if you have one. And you can write her a letter or him a letter and just go from there. You know, wow, Karen, there's so much there. Karen, thank you for your curiosity about DNMS. And I just want to thank our listeners for taking this journey with us. As always, we're so happy to have you here on Pretty Psych. Thank you, Karen.  (33:58) Karen: Thank you, Megan. (34:01) Megan: I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought, as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God self and others. If you'd like someone on one time with me unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode. And in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.    

About the Guest(s): Karen DeArmond Gardner: Karen is a distinguished DV (domestic violence) trauma advocate renowned for her extensive work with survivors of domestic abuse. As the author of "Another One Free," Karen draws on her rich experience to lead support groups, offer guidance, and walk alongside women on their healing journeys. From her role at Mountain City to her impactful book, Karen's dedication to helping individuals untangle personal trauma and rediscover their self-worth is evident in her practice and teaching. Episode Summary: Join host Megan Owen, a pastoral trauma counselor, on this enlightening episode of Pretty Psych, where the profound impacts of evangelical Christianity and cultural dynamics on the psyche are deconstructed. Megan welcomes Karen D'Armond Gardner, a renowned domestic violence trauma advocate, to discuss the impactful program that Megan created. Karen was the first to undertake this incredible certification process and Megan asks Karen about her experiences with this program. Join Megan and Karen as they dive deep, discussing the impact that it has had on Karen.   Key Takeaways: Karen speaks about how vital it is to listen and fully focus on whomever may be ministered to. She talks about how much the program has helped her grow in that area of her life. MCCC will offer this 12-week program starting in the fall of 2025. Many topics will be covered on how to be an active listener, how to take one's mental blocks away, and  Megan and Karen emphasize the importance of variety in experiences and personality. There is no "one-size-fits-all" when it comes to ministering. Notable Quotes: "But reading that [The Lost Art of Listening], it just opened my eyes to sometimes why we don't listen." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "If I'd have done something that worked for one person, cookie cutter would not have worked with others. With each one of these clients, it might have worked with one, but not with the other ones." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "The shepherds were not taking care of the people. And God said, because you've done all this, I will go find my sheep. And that's what I feel like. It's one on one of finding the vulnerable people that have been overlooked, who have not been heard, who have no one who understands." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "We want to spread the love, and I feel really good about the curriculum, I worked really hard on it." — Megan Owen Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com Karen DeArmond Gardner's Book: "Another One Free" Michael P Nichols and Martha B Straus: "The Lost Art of Listening" Delve into this episode for insights into trauma recovery through community, and stay tuned for more empowering discussions on Pretty Psych. If you would like to take part in this program, email Megan Owen at [email protected] Episode Transcript 0:00:03 - (Megan): This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche. The deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments. But. But we know that through this, what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. 0:00:43 - (Megan): I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself. Okay. All right. Welcome to Pretty Psych. Megan Owen here, pastoral trauma therapist with Mountain City Christian Counseling. I have with me the beloved Karen d' Arman Gardner, pastoral trauma coach. 0:01:26 - (Megan): I'm so glad we're here today, Karen. 0:01:28 - (Karen): Yes. I am so excited. 0:01:30 - (Megan): We have so much to talk about. Karen and I, we are still sort of riding the high from the retreat that we facilitated last weekend in Colorado Springs. So exciting. So many breakthroughs. It was so beautiful. 0:01:43 - (Karen): Yes, it was. It was intimate. It was vulnerable. There were moments of breakthrough that were just, like, seem maybe tiny, but they were huge. They were just huge. And I don't know if everybody realized how big those moments were. 0:02:02 - (Megan): Yeah. Sometimes I feel like just the awakening or the recognition of something is the biggest step because then we know what to do if we acknowledge that it's there. So. Yeah, I felt that, too. It was just beautiful. It was just beautiful. Love all the ladies who came. And I want. We want to see everybody back next year and more and more. Yes. I've already reserved the rooms because it fills up so quickly. So we already have dates for July 23rd through 25th of 2026. 0:02:35 - (Karen): Yes. 0:02:35 - (Megan): Yeah. So very excited. Well, today, Karen and I want to talk to you all about something new that we did together. We're very excited about it. It was a lot of work, and it paid off. 0:02:48 - (Karen): And. 0:02:49 - (Megan): And that is the pastoral trauma coaching certification that I created. And I created a lot of it for somebody like Karen, who was. She was already a DV coach or is a DV coach. I'm sorry. Mostly for advocacy. So for women who are leaving abuse and anybody who knows her, you know her beautiful story. She has her beautiful book that's very powerful, and she helps a lot of women in crisis. She was just telling me she had four calls yester. 0:03:21 - (Megan): She's just amazing. So she has had that advocacy training, and the coach Training. And, and I think Karen felt like she was. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you kind of told me you felt like you were missing the other side of that coin, which is the pastoral piece. Would that be. 0:03:41 - (Karen): Yes, I knew I wanted to do something else. I just wasn't really sure what that would be. And then when you suggested that, it was like, yes, that is what I've been wanting to do. So, yes, it was. 0:03:56 - (Megan): I remember you saying, Karen, when I sent you the description or the, you know, the, the offering, you said, it's everything I never knew I wanted and needed. 0:04:05 - (Karen): Right? Yes. 0:04:07 - (Megan): Yes. So we, Karen and I spent 12 weeks in pretty intensive training. Right? Lots of intensive training. The certification really was designed to bring the skills of being a pastoral trauma coach in a traumatized environment. Because our clients are traumatized, they're often in crisis. So how do we approach it as a pastor? And so that was. It was so exciting, Karen, to see you. It wasn't like you had a lot of aha moments. It was more like you. 0:04:43 - (Megan): You so fully embraced it. You. It was like you were kind of thirsty for it and you were drinking it up, you were soaking it up. And our very first week was on becoming a pastor. And that was a new thing for you, right? 0:05:00 - (Karen): Yes. And I know I've always been somewhat pastoral and it just helped me to hone my skills. I had all the. I felt like I had all these raw skills and I needed to hone them. I needed to be. I needed to be a better listener. I needed to be able to hold space more. And it's. It was all the areas that I was learning, but I needed to go deeper in it. I needed to expand all my capabilities to do it, to actually be a coach and not just someone that's connecting with people on a one off. 0:05:44 - (Megan): Right. Okay. So when I think about coaching, I think about structure. I think about maybe tailored plans for that specific person and sort of guidance, right? 0:05:59 - (Karen): Yes. 0:06:00 - (Megan): And. And this tra, the pastoral trauma certification, seemed to have balanced some of that. 0:06:06 - (Karen): Yes. 0:06:07 - (Megan): So now you have another tool in your bag for holding space for listening or drawing out of people maybe what they already have inside of them. Is that accurate? 0:06:20 - (Karen): Yes. Yes, it was. One of the biggest things I think I learned from you is as you're listening, is picking up on the small things that they say that just like if you're not really listening, they will. You'll miss them. And then being able to come back to those and ask a question about that and so that made. That brought aha. Moments. And I've always listened. I was not a good listener. And so when I was listening to somebody, I'd be already forming in my mind what I was going to say. 0:07:00 - (Karen): And it was really having to unlearn that. To just listen. To listen, to take notes, to jot things down and to pick up on the small things that were really the big things. 0:07:16 - (Megan): Thank you, Karen, for saying that. Yeah. The nuance. So I'm just gonna kind of run through. We did 12 weeks. Karen led a few groups, right. Two or three groups. 0:07:30 - (Karen): I had three different clients, individual clients. And then I was running a crisis group. 0:07:35 - (Megan): Okay. So we got to meet. We had two hours per week of supervision together. You and I did. And then you received permission from your clients to talk with me if needed. And so we were able to. At the things that came up, not just to problem solve at all, but what's underneath there and maybe why am I responding in the way I'm responding and sort of looking at what we might be projecting ourselves or. 0:08:07 - (Megan): Yeah, any. Any. Anything that was in the way, I guess, like any noise or anything inside of ourselves. Right, right. Yeah. Transference. We did a lot about transference. Yeah. 0:08:20 - (Karen): And it was interesting because all three clients were just completely different places. But to watch the progression with each one of them. And that's why it's important to create something or some structure around each individual. It's not cookie cutter. If I'd have done something, cookie cutter would not have worked with these. With each one of these clients. It might have worked with one, but not with the other one. 0:08:52 - (Karen): And. And then it helped, like learning more about some of the grounding exercises, the tapping. And I only had one client where that was a really big deal for the other two were not in that place, but tapping helped the other one doing body scans. Again, the other two weren't really into it, but I had one that it totally helped her because of where she was to say, oh, this what I feel. Oh, this is the emotion tied to it. 0:09:23 - (Karen): And then as weeks go by, that she sees, okay, we do another body scan. It's like, oh, that one's not there anymore. And so those were really powerful moments for her that really were not a big deal to the other ones. 0:09:38 - (Megan): Yeah, so what? And this was a big part of why we did this. Because I love, I like, I love our source program. It is. It's structured, it has specific topics, but it's no replacement for that one on one intuitive interaction where you're truly Getting to know this one client and how they work and what they need and also recognizing that we don't really need to insert very much at all. Right. Because they have the spirit of God in them. 0:10:14 - (Megan): They may not know that. And a big part of being a pastoral counselor is to help them to see that. Right. Make those connections. But like you said, so with one client, the connection to body was really, really important, but it wasn't really a good fit for the other two. And I'm sure there were so many other things like that. 0:10:35 - (Karen): Yes, absolutely. One was just helping her to talk in a language without over spiritualizing. And for her it was the first time she had anybody to talk to about all the things going on. And so it was a lot more listening and, and, and allowing her time to process. 0:11:00 - (Megan): That's beautiful. And I love that you did that. And I know that you have made indelible marks on all of these women. I mean, who knows how many women, countless women over the years. So, Karen, I want to go ahead. I'm going to read through our 12 topics O to remind us, refresh us. But then I want you to tell me maybe what was one of your favorites or what, which one was more impactful? So, so week one was on becoming a pastor. 0:11:29 - (Megan): Week two was practical counseling techniques and ethical considerations. Three was trauma theories. Week four was emotional spiritual pain and depth psychology. I remember you liked that a lot. Depth psychology. Five was trauma modalities. Six was CO regulation and coping skills, which you've already mentioned. Seven, we touched on personality disorders like CPTSD versus Borderline because those are often confused. We talked about PTSD versus complex trauma. 0:12:05 - (Megan): Week eight, reflective and empathic empathetic listening. Week nine was spiritual correlation and connections. Week ten was healing as individual, which is what we just talked about. It is individual. And week 11 is common therapeutic pitfalls. And week 12 was relationships as a resistance to pain. And so with every week Karen had a reading and then we had two hours of supervision and then she was offering her skills to these women and we were talking about that. So in reading that, did anything spark something in you? 0:12:44 - (Karen): Yes, I forgot about the, the depth one. That, that depth therapy that was really impactful and, and you gave me readings each week. And sometimes I went and bought the book because I wanted more. I know I wanted more. And I will tell you, as I mentioned earlier, the one on listening rocked me the most. I bought the book and I read the book and it so impacted me. 0:13:12 - (Megan): Yeah. The Lost Art of Listening. 0:13:14 - (Karen): The Lost Art of Listening. It totally Rocked my world. And because I realized how, you know, with all the healing that I've gone through, that. That was one area that I was really lacking in. I mean, just to be honest, I was really lacking in that area, and I knew I had improved. But reading that, it just opened my eyes to sometimes why we don't listen, or we're listening to answer. And my husband said one time to one of his contract workers, he said, you talk so much, you never listen. 0:13:56 - (Megan): Oh. 0:13:57 - (Karen): And I was like, that's easy to do. Yeah, is we can talk so much that we never hear what anybody says to us. And then you complain that you didn't get details passed down to you, and you did, but you weren't listening to hear. You were listening to talk. And. And so a lot of that was really hard. Like, it was hard to look at. At. At that. But yet it's something I could change. I mean, this is. It's not like, oh, no, because we can stop. Here's a stopping point, and now here's a new starting point. 0:14:34 - (Karen): And, and even the holding space for people, it's. That part was also big. It is something I've learned, but it helped me to focus more on that and to get better at that. Because the listening and the holding space, they're literally tied together. 0:14:54 - (Megan): And you come by that honestly, we all do. Because I think, first of all, sometimes holding space or just being silent or listening can seem uncomfortable. And so we have to get comfortable recognizing that sometimes when we do hold space and honor. Honor the stories, honor the, the sharing, the vulnerabilities, that even out of 10 or 20 seconds of holding space, there's a lot going on in that space. Right? 0:15:26 - (Megan): And if we're talking through that, then we can't. We will miss it, and it might be a really big deal. The other thing is that we're given so much information and you are a researcher. I mean, you. You research and you. And you store it and you store it and you store it, and you do have so much wisdom. And so I understand why you would want to say, okay, well, here's what I have. I. I learned because you. It's. It's not from a. 0:15:56 - (Megan): Any place of mal. Intent. You've got this stored in your brain and you want to give it to them. That's why you learned it, so you can give it to them. So it is challenging to. To learn the art of intuitive practice, like a healing practice, a pastoral practice, of recognizing that companioning and compassion and, and curiosity, lack of judgment and just Being with people is a huge part of the healing. 0:16:30 - (Megan): And so it is, It's. It's a whole different dimension, isn't it? 0:16:34 - (Karen): Yes, it, it truly is. And I, and I recognize that there are a few people that just are good listeners. Naturally, most of us have to learn that, that. And that's okay. And I did not take, There was only, I think, one statement of the book that made me just like, oh, Karen. But I was like, no, okay. You learn from this. A lot of it can be parts of trauma, self protection. And if we're talking all the time, then we don't let anybody see. 0:17:06 - (Karen): But actually, one of my strengths is as a learner and as a learner and a teacher, we want to share what we've learned. And you said that so well and it is so true. And that is something that is not a bad thing. But is it time for it? 0:17:23 - (Megan): Right. Right. 0:17:23 - (Karen): Learning is. Is this the right time? I had a client the first time I met with her. She didn't want to just tell me her story. She had questions, she wanted answers to questions. And then she gave me story in between that. And so I could just answer her questions. Maybe not always the way she wanted, but that's what she needed. 0:17:50 - (Megan): Yeah. And I love that. I love that because that's that individual healing. And you honor her by recognizing that that's what she needed and that's what she was literally asking for. And that's another part of pastoral trauma counseling is honoring the divine spark in that other person and being able to, to recognize that she's different, he's different, and they need different things. And I'm going to listen to that. And then we're going to meet them there because we will always take you as you are. And that's something I always tell our new clients in that first 15 or 20 minute intake is, we're never going to judge you. We are going to meet you where you are. 0:18:36 - (Karen): Yes. Yes. 0:18:38 - (Megan): I remember also that you loved the dream. Like we talked about dream work when we talked about depth psychology and that was something you were really interested in. 0:18:49 - (Karen): Yes. And I think we were like analyzing one of the weird dreams that I had, which we won't go into because I don't even remember which one it was. But it, it does fascinate me. I am not a dream interpreter. I, I just have sometimes weird dreams, like I'm trying to solve a problem over and over and over again, you know, but they're not nightmares anymore. That's. I found value in that because a Lot of times. And when you're in crisis, you do the nightmares, the. 0:19:21 - (Karen): The thinking that you're still in. In the danger. It's. It's a real valid thing. 0:19:29 - (Megan): Right. 0:19:29 - (Karen): And so you brought a whole new perspective on it that. That I love that you do and we'll be doing soon. 0:19:38 - (Megan): Yes. Yes. Let's plug it right now. 0:19:40 - (Karen): Yes. 0:19:42 - (Megan): When is our dream? We have a free. Did you hear me? Free dream workshop coming up. 0:19:49 - (Karen): August 23rd. 0:19:50 - (Megan): August 23rd. Thank you so much. That's right. August 23rd. Yeah, we're gonna have an email going out on Monday where you can sign up for that. So. Yeah, but carry on. Sorry. 0:20:02 - (Karen): No, that's. It was a good. I was hoping that was right to say put a plug in for that dream work. Because our dreams do tell us things. And a lot of time in our mind when we're sleeping, our brain is able to process things that we can't process in the daylight. It's the time when things. Memories can come out. Though it might not come back as a memory, it just might come back as a weird dream where you're like. Like mine where you're solving a problem that you can't solve and you wake up exhausted because you've re. 0:20:34 - (Karen): You started the movie over and over and over again. And because your brain doesn't want to go to the memory, for whatever reason, it's not ready to release it. And I just realized that I haven't had that dream a lot lately where I'm constantly solving problems. That's interesting. 0:20:51 - (Megan): So that's the one we talked about, right? I mean, sometimes our subconscious is like, hello, we need to talk about this. And then you're almost forced to, because then you say, megan, I had the weirdest dream. And it keeps happening. Now we're talking about it. So it's like it's. It's out there now. It's not subconscious anymore, you know, so that's. That's what. That's what we do. That it serves its purpose. 0:21:14 - (Karen): And you brought up a really good point. Because I realized just now that even with our two hours every week, that you always took time for me, for where I was. And we would process something that I was, whether it was a dream or something I was experiencing. I do a modality that's similar to your DNMs. And so we actually did that one day. And it was so impactful for me because I didn't realize that this. This teenage part of me needed to be seen. 0:21:53 - (Karen): And so I realized that you always took time to like, where am I? What's going on? And I didn't even know I was saying anything. And you would pick up on things, go, huh, Maybe we should talk about that. 0:22:11 - (Megan): Sounds like something I would say. 0:22:12 - (Karen): Yes. And so there was some of that. So I felt like even through the process, I was getting therapy for things that I would. That I would say or not say. And there's one. I can't think of what it was. But you kept asking me the question. I'm like, why she keep asking me this question? And then I think you finally got the right. The answer that you were digging down to, because I was kind of blowing over it and. 0:22:41 - (Karen): But you kept digging down because you knew there was something there that I was not seeing, and. But you didn't tell me what it was. You just kept asking questions. So. So I felt like I got therapy through throughout the 12 weeks that I needed, so I didn't realize that till just now. Thank you for that. 0:23:03 - (Megan): Well, that's a big deal. Thank you for bringing that up. I. I mean, it's just, you know, I love my time with Karen, and we. If we had had time, we would have talked for hours every single time. But. 0:23:15 - (Karen): Yes. 0:23:16 - (Megan): Yeah, but you have everything in you that you need, and I see these things in you that are so good. And we as counselors, as coaches, as people helpers, we always need to be able to talk to somebody about things. And even though I was the facilitator and the supervisor for this, there were other times where I've been able to say, hey, Karen, you know, what do you think about my schedule? I feel like I'm doing too much. And, you know, and you could. And it was. 0:23:51 - (Megan): It's just very mutual with you. And we need that. I have my clients know I go to therapy at least for six weeks, twice a year, and then longer if I need to, because our work is wonderful. I love what we do. And we also need to be able to have somebody else enter into our world for a minute and companion us also. Right? 0:24:18 - (Karen): Yes. And I've needed that for so long, but I couldn't find it. And I was aware of that and kept asking the Lord, I don't know what I need, but I'm missing this part. I have friends, but I'm missing this part. And so even though we've kind of communicated, we've done podcasts together. We've. We've. 0:24:43 - (Megan): We've collaborated on a lot, collaborated on a few things. 0:24:46 - (Karen): But then when I went to the retreat last year and we Realized like, we were so connected and, and it was such an answer to prayer, but we didn't realize it was an answer to prayer for both of us. 0:25:00 - (Megan): Right. We were. It's so funny, I walked by that little room where we met in the pink house at the retreat in 2024, and I was like, oh, that's. I'm gonna name that the Karen room, because that's the only time I ever sat in that room. It's like a parlor or something. 0:25:15 - (Karen): Yeah. 0:25:16 - (Megan): And we. It's. It was just really cool because we were on the same page about things. And that's so hard to find. It's so hard to find because we don't fit into. We. We just don't fit into a lot of the mainstream groups. You know, even with advocacy, we don't. So. So it was just. Yeah, we needed that. And I'm so grateful to have you on board. 0:25:41 - (Karen): Yes, thank you. And I, I love it because the things that I love to do is groups. I've been doing groups for since like what, 2015. I had done different types of groups. And so. And you don't have the bandwidth for groups. 0:25:59 - (Megan): And one on one is my choice. I love groups. I just don't have. I can't. I can't do it right. 0:26:06 - (Karen): And. And I love doing groups and I also love now the one on one. And it's. I think the reason the pastoral hit so strongly for me is come from Ezekiel 34 and when the, the. The shepherds were not taking care of the people. And God said, because you've done all this, I will go find my sheep. And that's what I feel like. It's one on one of finding the vulnerable people that have been overlooked, have not been heard, who have no one who understands. 0:26:47 - (Karen): It's what I hear now is it is so nice to talk to somebody that understands what I'm going through. And that's a really big deal. I did not have that. When I came out of my abusive marriage. I had nothing. 2004, end of 2004, 2005. All through those years until social media, I had nothing. I did not know healing was even possible. There were no you's in the world. There was no access. And that's. And in. Yet in the middle of all that, God still kept taking me from one place to another to get the healing that I need. Like, once I realized it was possible, then I was just like, give me all the things, I will do all the things to get the healing that I need. 0:27:38 - (Megan): Yes, yes. 0:27:40 - (Karen): And so that's why this has been so important to me, is I want to like, you know, when Jesus was here, he went after the sheep, the vulnerable. Well, now that's our job. That is our job is to go after those, the lost women that nobody sees. They're hiding in plain sight and giving them a place to have a voice. 0:28:07 - (Megan): Yes, yes, absolutely. And anybody who knows Karen knows this about her. And the women who have been in groups with Karen, love Karen. They talk about her warmth and her understanding and yes, that she's been there. I said that yesterday to a woman who's a prospective client. I said, you would not be working with women who haven't been where you are right now. And that's a big deal. So, yes, Karen, you are a gift to all the women you work with and to all of us and to everyone who knows you. 0:28:44 - (Megan): Karen, if you, if, if you were to speak to somebody who's thinking about doing this certification in the fall, which is when, you know, we're going to open it up in the fall. And she wasn't sure, do I want to do this? Do I need to do this? What would you say to her? 0:29:02 - (Karen): Oh, gosh, if you want to really help, if you want. You want to help. I mean, I hear that so often from women. I want to help other women. And I've made all the mistakes. And when I, before I met Megan, before I did any kind of training where I met with women and so if you want to help, then Megan takes you through this. I mean, she has a structured program which a couple of times she, she switched out a reading and she goes, oh, I think because of something I said, I think we should do this read or we're going to switch this around. I think we did a switching around one time and based on what I needed and help me to be better at what I'm doing and the fact that I, I can continue to learn and, and I'm still got books I've need that I'm listening to or I need to go back through and go through again. 0:30:03 - (Karen): You just reminding me about the depth. I don't know why through everything I was like, oh, I bought that book. I need to delve into that more. And because I'm not trying to be a therapist, I want to help women to be able to. They're going to get through A to Z. Even though A to Z is full of twists and turns and ups and downs, it's not a straight line, but that through that process they can get there. 0:30:33 - (Karen): And then the program you created helped me to be able to do that, and in a good way. And then even if I'm like, oh, I think I might have made a mistake here, it's like, any mistake can be fixed with an apology, with, you know what? I told you this, but that wasn't right. I'm going to tell you this because it's not about being right. If we live to where we always have to be right, and it's our way, we're not, it doesn't work. And I can be that. I could have been that person. 0:31:07 - (Megan): I think any of us could have. I mean, you. There is an imbalance of power. Even though I try really hard to show everybody how human I am, I do find that our. Our clients trust us a lot more when we're not afraid to own something. You know, so, like, we're human, too. Okay. Big deal. You know, so it's Karen, I loved it. I miss it. 0:31:31 - (Karen): Oh, I do. I'm like, is there. Is there a 2.0 class? 0:31:37 - (Megan): I'm sure we could come up with something. But, yes, yes. I. It just was. It was such a good experience for both of us. And now Karen, of course, is part of Mountain City Christian Counseling, and we have so many wonderful things coming up that we're planning and that we're doing. And we did. Oh, we did get to give her her certificate, which was lovely. We got to do that at the retreat, and everybody cheered and clapped and, you know, they. They have watched you take this journey, and so many people are cheering you on. They're still commenting on your certification on social media. 0:32:14 - (Megan): So I'm just, you know, this was just a great fit. I would love to see more people go through this certification because you told me three or four days ago, you said there are not enough helpers for the women who are hurting. So let's. We want to spread the love. And, And I feel really good about the curriculum. I worked really hard on it. And like you said, I tell. I wanted to tailor it to you because it. Because it's not cookie cutter. Right. And that's the whole thing. 0:32:45 - (Karen): Right, Right. And. And the. The reality is not everybody can afford therapy. There are people that live in rural areas that don't have access to resources. There are women in other countries that don't have any resources. And so if you think about that, that coaching gives another option. It's not a replacement for therapy, but it gives someone an option to at least get them through. 0:33:16 - (Megan): Through Right. 0:33:17 - (Karen): Until there's a time that they can afford or find somebody that's in their area or, or they can then move on to you if. When you have an opening. 0:33:29 - (Megan): Right. 0:33:29 - (Karen): So it's. It's not taking the place of. 0:33:33 - (Megan): Right. 0:33:33 - (Karen): It's just God is so creative. He does not have one way for everybody to heal. 0:33:41 - (Megan): Yes, exactly. Karen and I, as you were talking, I was just thinking, oh, there's so, so many ways in which you could utilize the certification, including just being that person at your church who can be that safety net for people who are going through trauma or some. It's just more to add to what you've already done. It's another layer of. It's another tool for your toolbox. So. Yeah, and I'm, I'm so grateful we've got to do it together. I'm grateful for you, Karen. And if you want to work with Karen, you can go to our website@mountaincitychristian counseling.com. 0:34:19 - (Megan): she's amazing. And of course, if you want to work with me, same thing. And if you are interested in the pastoral trauma coaching certification with mccc, just send me an email. I can only do one or two at a time, so I'm opening it back up this fall. And my email is MeganountaincityChristian counseling.com so, Karen, thank you so much. I just, I love our times together. There's. Yeah. And there's a lot to look forward to, isn't there? 0:34:48 - (Karen): Yes. 0:34:48 - (Megan): Yeah. Yes. 0:34:49 - (Karen): Yes. One on one time with Megan is gold. 0:34:53 - (Megan): Oh, you're so wonderful. Thank you, Karen. Okay, well, thank you all so much for listening to Pretty Psych and we will be talking to you soon. 0:35:01 - (Karen): Yes. Bye. 0:35:03 - (Megan): Bye. I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God, self and others. If you'd like some one on one time with me unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, Contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com to help this podcast reach more people. Do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. 0:35:43 - (Megan): My name is Megan Owen and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode and in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.

About the Guest: Bonnie is a resilient survivor of severe spiritual abuse, with decades in evangelical circles, particularly within the Wilson family’s influential community. As a mother and grandmother, she now channels her experiences to support women facing similar struggles. Her journey from spiritual oppression to reclaiming her voice gives her deep insights, which she shares to inspire healing and empowerment.       Episode Summary: In this episode of Pretty Psych, Megan Owen, a pastoral trauma counselor from Mountain City Christian Counseling, invites Bonnie to share her powerful story of overcoming spiritual abuse. They expose the hidden scars left by oppressive religious doctrines and explore the path to reclaiming self-worth. Bonnie recounts her experiences within her family and the Wilson community, shedding light on the long-lasting effects of manipulation and control.   As Megan draws connections between therapy and faith, the discussion delves into agency, identity, and genuine spirituality. Themes of liberation, healing, and understanding God’s true nature offer listeners solace and empowerment. The episode highlights the impact of spiritual abuse, the necessity of self-love, and the freedom found in God’s unconditional love.   Key Takeaways: Spiritual abuse can significantly affect a person’s sense of self-worth and agency, often leaving those affected feeling trapped and disconnected. Human relationships and recovery from emotional and spiritual abuse require acknowledgment, apologetic gestures, and personal growth. Understanding God's true nature, separate from manipulative religious teachings, brings liberation and personal empowerment. Healing involves reclaiming one's voice and allowing oneself to experience God's love and freedom beyond dogmatic constrictions. Having a supportive partner and community can play a crucial role in the recovery and personal reinvention process. Notable Quotes: "Spiritual abuse convinced me that my voice, my ideas, my opinions are not important and that anything I say will just be dismissed." – Bonnie "You did not sweat drops of blood like Jesus did, was what I was told. But I'd already died a death of a thousand cuts." – Bonnie "Even in the darkest times, I still reached for God because without Him, I would have had no tether at all." – Bonnie "Now I know that he, all that time, was reaching for me, too, with kindness and pure love." – Bonnie "The idea of just sitting beside Jesus and just being at rest, just being, and knowing you are loved unconditionally." – Megan Owen Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com Jim Wilson's "How to Be Free from Bitterness" - A book mentioned as part of Bonnie's experience with spiritual teachings.

About the Guest: Peter Bell is the host, producer, writer, and editor of the podcast "Sons of Patriarchy," which investigates the roles of gender within evangelical churches, particularly focusing on the ideals of the father as an authority and the son as submissive. Peter holds a degree from Westminster Seminary, California, and has a background in fitness and ministry. His experience in pastoral counseling and interest in exposing abuse and doctrinal issues in churches have led him to uncover widespread spiritual and systemic abuse within the evangelical church. Episode Summary: This episode of Pretty Psych, Megan Owen invites Peter Bell from "Sons of Patriarchy" to delve into issues surrounding evangelical Christianity, pastoral counseling, and systemic abuse within the church. The discussion brings light to the impact of patriarchal roles in the evangelical church and the critical work being done to uncover and address abuse within these institutions. The podcast explores the dynamics of authority and submission preached in patriarchal churches and highlights the flawed theologies that influence this structure. With a deep dive into Peter Bell's podcast journey and his revelations, the episode unveils the layers of trauma and healing embedded within these church systems.  Key Takeaways: Patriarchal Structures: The episode details how evangelical churches structure themselves around problematic concepts of authority and submission, particularly within the Trinity and marital relationships. Impact on Survivors: Peter Bell shares insights into the experiences of interviewees from his podcast and the broader effects of spiritual abuse. Changing Goals: Peter discusses how his podcast 'Sons of Patriarchy' evolved to focus more on giving survivors a platform rather than just addressing church reputations. Support and Community: Megan and Peter stress the importance of building supportive networks for those harmed by the church, creating a movement that goes beyond traditional church boundaries. Notable Quotes: "It's the church that's wrong, and they've got to conform to who God is as a compassionate, as a shepherd, as a father." "If people are scared of their elders in the church, it’s the church doing something wrong." "You're not alone. Even if you feel alone, even if you are the only one, even if you are single, you're not alone." "The Father who created all things…is the very one who loves his creation." "For people to, if you connect with us, if you talk with us, my goal is not just to get you recorded and on the series. My goal is to hopefully get you better." Resources: Peter Bell's Podcast: Sons of Patriarchy Listen to Megan Owen talk about Jim Wilson on Sons of Patriarchy Examining Doug Wilson of Moscow Facebook Page Megan Owen's Counseling Website: Mountain City Christian Counseling   Engage with this episode to explore the intricate nuances of spiritual abuse and healing in the evangelical church space, presented through the passionate advocacy of Peter Bell and Megan Owen. Stay tuned for more insightful explorations in future episodes of Pretty Psych.

About the Guest(s): Karen DeArmond Gardner: Karen is a distinguished DV (domestic violence) trauma advocate renowned for her extensive work with survivors of domestic abuse. As the author of "Another One Free," Karen draws on her rich experience to lead support groups, offer guidance, and walk alongside women on their healing journeys. From her role at Mountain City to her impactful book, Karen's dedication to helping individuals untangle personal trauma and rediscover their self-worth is evident in her practice and teaching. Episode Summary: Join host Megan Owen, a pastoral trauma counselor, on this enlightening episode of Pretty Psych, where the profound impacts of evangelical Christianity and cultural dynamics on the psyche are deconstructed. Megan welcomes Karen D'Armond Gardner, a renowned domestic violence trauma advocate, to discuss the transformative work being done through support groups at Mountain City Christian Counseling. Over the course of the episode, Megan and Karen delve into the specifics of different counseling group offerings, beginning in January 2025. These include crisis groups, spiritual processing groups, and specialized domestic violence sessions. They discuss the critical role these groups play in offering affordable and meaningful support for women healing from trauma, integrating the psychological and spiritual dimensions of recovery. Through the use of a unique, non-judgmental, and connection-focused format, the groups aim to create a safe and healing environment that fosters deep emotional intimacy and personal growth. Key Takeaways: Karen DeArmond Gardner emphasizes the importance of safety and vulnerability in trauma recovery groups, highlighting that true breakthroughs often occur when individuals feel secure in expressing their emotions. Mountain City offers a variety of group sessions, including crisis and spiritual processing groups, designed to address different facets of trauma and faith reconstruction. The episode stresses refraining from advising during group discussions, focusing instead on deep listening and reflection to uphold the sacredness of shared stories. Megan Owen highlights the necessity of establishing safe, judgment-free environments to help clients overcome past betrayals and relational wounds. Through their work, Megan and Karen show how re-engaging with faith and uncovering the deeper truths of spirituality can facilitate healing from the damage caused by abuse and dogmatic beliefs. Notable Quotes: "It's detangling, well, who you believe, what you believe about yourself." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "We are literally just holding space for them, like Job's friends did when they just sat with him." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "We don't have to defend God, we don't have to defend Jesus, we don't have to defend the church, we don't have to defend anybody." — Karen DeArmond Gardner "Because the women who come into the groups have everything they need inside of them." — Megan Owen "We love our clients. We have to have… safety in order for healing to happen." — Megan Owen Resources: Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com Karen DeArmond Gardner's Book: "Another One Free" Delve into this episode for insights into trauma recovery through community, and stay tuned for more empowering discussions on Pretty Psych.

Megan sits with author and counsellor Patrick Doyle, to discuss his new book, "Death of a Thousand Cuts." They delve into the complexities of emotional, physical, and spiritual abuse, exploring how it erodes intrinsic value. Patrick shares insights from his personal journey and professional experience, offering practical advice for recognizing and healing from abuse. They also touch on the challenges of religious environments in addressing abuse, emphasizing the necessity of healthy support systems. Patrick's transformative approach aims to help individuals reclaim their self-worth and experience genuine freedom.

MASSIVE Giveaway! We are doing a giveaway the entire month of November! Jen Ferrante's offering 50% off all her Zenith courses in Reach My Zenith only unlocked when you do a little something! Head to Pretty Psych on Apple Podcasts - rate and review this podcast, take a screenshot of the review and send it to Mountain City Christian Counselling Corp on Facebook with the word ZENITH!  We'll then verify and send you the 50% code for you to use! Hurry this ends 31st December 2024. During the month of NOVEMBER one lucky person who successfully does the above will win ONE free guided coaching session with Jen valued at $555!    About the Guest: Jennifer Ferrante is a clinical hypnotherapist with extensive training in neuro-linguistic programming, positive psychology, mind-body psychology, and EFT tapping. Jennifer specializes in helping individuals access the subconscious mind to rewrite deeply ingrained programming, facilitating fast and effective change. She currently works at Ferrante Family Wellness, where she offers remote sessions and an online course titled "Reach My Zenith." Episode Summary: In this transformative episode of "Pretty Psych," host Megan Owen, alongside Jennifer Ferrante, delves into the nuanced world of emotions, intuition, and their connection to spirituality. This episode continues from a previous discussion on rebuilding self-trust after trauma and further explores women's historical roles and intuitive powers. Listeners will gain an understanding of how embracing emotional dynamics can lead to healthier relationships and a thriving sense of self. Throughout the conversation, Ferrante sheds light on the historical significance of women's intuitive nature and its repression within sociopolitical and religious systems. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of recognizing subjective truths and the balance between emotion and rationale in relationships. Ferrante and Owen also tackle common misconceptions about autism and emotions, dismantling stereotypes and promoting deeper awareness and understanding. The episode is rich in insights and provides actionable steps for personal and emotional growth, backed by a generous giveaway for listeners. Key Takeaways: Women's intuitive powers have historically been revered, playing critical roles in communities as oracles and wise figures. Emotions are essential for meaningful connections, and societal or religious repression of them can lead to imbalance and personal discord. Autistic individuals often possess deep feelings but may struggle to articulate or process them when overwhelmed. Reconstructing one's relationship with duality and embracing both subjective and objective truths promotes psychological and spiritual healing. Personal empowerment can be attained through a balanced embrace of innate gifts and aligning with authentic self-truths. Notable Quotes: "Anytime we remove intuition from the framework of what's existing, we create an unbalanced model." - Jennifer Ferrante "Women are beautiful judges, and we should never question our discernment that is built in." - Jennifer Ferrante "When subjective experience is honored, we can see the value in both ends of the emotional spectrum." - Megan Owen "The goal is always to bring you home to yourself, to ignite healing and rest from within." - Megan Owen "The journey is about moving from separation to reintegrating connectedness, returning to the garden." - Jennifer Ferrante     Resources: Jennifer Ferrante's Website: Ferrante Family Wellness Jennifer's Online Course: Reach My Zenith

About the Guest: Jennifer Ferrante is a clinical hypnotherapist with extensive training in neuro-linguistic programming, positive psychology, mind-body psychology, and EFT tapping. Jennifer specializes in helping individuals access the subconscious mind to rewrite deeply ingrained programming, facilitating fast and effective change. She currently works at Ferrante Family Wellness, where she offers remote sessions and an online course titled "Reach My Zenith." Episode Summary: Megan Owen, a pastoral trauma counselor, delves into the intricate connections between therapy, evangelical Christianity, and the psyche with clinical hypnotherapist Jennifer Ferrante. They explore the impact of early ingrained patterns, the role of interoception in healing, and highlight how neurodivergence can affect relationships and self-trust. Jennifer shares insights on navigating subjective truth, the potential for transformation through hypnotherapy, and embracing one's uniqueness in a neurotypical world.  Key Takeaways: Demystifying Hypnotherapy: The episode clarifies the differences between entertainment-focused hypnosis and clinical hypnotherapy, highlighting its therapeutic potential for trauma recovery. Interoception's Role: Understanding interoception helps in recognizing one's emotional and physical state, crucial for healing from trauma and emotional dysregulation. Subjective vs Objective Experience: Acknowledging the importance of subjective experience fosters empathy and understanding, particularly for neurodivergent individuals. Empathy Encompassed: Validating individual experiences is key, allowing for healing and transformation, particularly for those who have been gaslit or dismissed in the past. Neurodivergence Empowerment: The conversation spotlights the unique challenges and strengths of neurodivergent individuals, advocating for a compassionate and informed approach to support. Notable Quotes: "Even though I am feeling cold, with each and every breath, I'm feeling warmer and warmer." — Jennifer Ferrante "The critical mind, the mind that is the conscious will, comes in and says, I don't believe this. This isn't my programming." — Jennifer Ferrante "Interoception is actually our perception of our internal processes that are happening." — Jennifer Ferrante "We understand that there's sensory input that we're receiving from our five senses." — Jennifer Ferrante "Can I not trust what I'm feeling? And that's where we can go back to that core of, is this how you want to feel?" — Jennifer Ferrante Resources: Jennifer Ferrante's Website: Ferrante Family Wellness Jennifer's Online Course: Reach My Zenith Dive into this enriching episode to discover groundbreaking insights on hypnotherapy's role in trauma healing, enhancing self-trust, and supporting neurodivergent individuals. Don't forget to tune into the upcoming continuation with Jennifer Ferrante for more profound insights on navigating complex psychological landscapes with compassion and self-awareness.

About the Guest: Dr. Andrew Bauman is a licensed mental health counselor, author, and esteemed speaker. Alongside his wife, Dr. Christy Bauman, they co-run a dynamic counseling practice focused on deep healing and therapeutic interventions. He specializes in issues related to sexual addiction, misogyny, and trauma within the context of evangelical and patriarchal frameworks. Andrew is also known for his insightful writing and is the author of multiple books, including his new release, “Safe Church.” Episode Summary: In this disarming episode, Megan Owen chats Dr. Andrew Bauman to delve into the complex and often misunderstood topic of the Madonna Whore Complex. Dr. Bauman elucidates the origins and implications of this psychological dichotomy, emphasizing its prevalence within evangelical marriages and purity culture. The discussion extends to the harmful binaries of purity and objectification perpetuated by patriarchy and misogyny. Throughout the episode, Megan and Andrew dissect how these deeply ingrained cultural and religious scripts cripple both men and women, leading to relational trauma and disconnection. Dr. Bauman introduces therapeutic approaches for men to overcome destructive behaviors and emphasizes the importance of emotional intimacy and mutual respect. The conversation also sheds light on the potential for profound transformation and true connection when both partners commit to healing and growth. Key Takeaways: The Madonna Whore Complex, introduced by Sigmund Freud, dichotomizes women into two categories: pure, nurturing Madonna or sexually available whore. Patriarchy and purity culture reinforce these harmful binaries, leading to objectification and the devaluation of women in evangelical contexts. Healing for men involves deep inner child work, addressing their emotional wounds, and moving beyond adaptive adolescent behavior to embrace emotional intimacy. Women suffer immense relational trauma under patriarchal stress, resulting in roles that diminish their personhood and restrict authentic connection. True relational repair and profound intimacy can be achieved through mutual vulnerability, emotional maturity, and breaking free from toxic theological narratives. Notable Quotes: “The splitting of women, which I believe goes back to … the purity culture where women are supposed to be pure, their value is in their virginity.” – Dr. Andrew J. Bauman “Whenever there is objectification of the image of God, you’re no longer honoring and worshiping God, but you’re actually consuming and devouring God in a horrific way.” – Dr. Andrew J. Bauman “We all have that wounded little child… to protect that wounded child, we develop an adaptive adolescent.” – Dr. Andrew J. Bauman “The opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection.” – Dr. Andrew J. Bauman “The only way to resurrection is through crucifixion. So many men want to do this work without the suffering.” – Dr. Andrew J. Bauman Resources: Blogpost on Devouring Women by Megan Owen  Andrew Bauman’s Website Cristy Bauman’s Website Articles by Dr. Andrew J. Bauman: On the Topic of Devouring Women  Book: “Safe Church” by Dr. Andrew J. Bauman   For a deep dive into the conversation and more insightful content on relationship healing and breaking free from destructive behaviors, listen to the full episode and stay tuned for more from our enlightening series.

Listen now as Georgia Free concludes her incredible journey of hope and healing. We are picking up from about age 9, when Georgia was simultaneously doing all she could to help her younger sister who was living with cystic fibrosis AND already questioning her faith at a very young age. *How could God do this to my sister -- and to me?*Make sure you have first listened to part 1. And don't forget that you can find Georgia on her radio station at:https://hope1032.com.au Listen to Georgia's podcast where I appear as a guest: https://spti.fi/megan-owen  

Join Georgia Free as she opens up and shares her story for the first time! Listen as she discusses how she was led to the radio industry, what prompted her to begin her own podcast-of-hope during COVID, all the way up until she discusses her sister's grave illness and her own interrupted childhood. Listen to part 1 now! Georgia Free is a scientist-turned-radio presenter on Hope 103.2 in Sydney, Australia, and is the host and producer of the Finding Hope and Hope Book Club podcasts. Graduating with a chemistry degree, her (minor) existential crisis unexpectedly landed her a job on radio - and she hasn't looked back since!Georgia is also a keen reader, prefers listening to talking (ironic for a radio host!) and loves deep conversations about life and faith.   Listen to Georgia's podcast where I appear as a guest: https://spti.fi/megan-owenFind more on HOPE FM here: https://hope1032.com.au/show/finding-hope/

Rachel is a mom, domestic violence advocate, and Rule 114 Qualified Neutral for the state of Minnesota. Rachel's own life experiences led her to create a non profit helping women and children escaping domestic abuse as well as starting a private family mediation practice founded on the values of respect, responsibility, and relationship. In both arenas, as well as at home with her children and in relationships with others, Rachel strives to empower herself and others to live a life of peace and authenticity, free from oppression. Listen as Rachel brilliantly describes how she went from a victim/survivor to adding advocate and mediator to her resumé! One of the bravest people Megan knows, Rachel shares her story. Don't miss it! ***Also, make sure you listen to the entire episode to receive a FREE GIFT from Megan! *** Facebook Link:facebook.com/gatheringhopemnWebsites:gatheringhopemn.orgrachelkennedymediation.comInsta:https://www.instagram.com/gathering_hope_mn/  

With the recycling of poor dogma surrounding social relationships in Christendom (ahem-- umbrella of death), Theologian Sam Powell explains where all of the theology started -- and surprise! It is nothing new. Novel heresies pop up all of the time. Listen as Sam gives us a clear understanding of the history behind complementarianism and why it is so dangerous. And this is just part 1! Find more about Sam here:https://sampowellministries.com/

Listen as Elle and Megan discuss their decade-long friendship, early advocacy, sacred journeys, conversations and healings that led to their newest project -- SOURCE!

Many of us know what it is like to be ex-communicated from a beloved church. The psychological stress and pain are almost unbearable. In today's episode, the esteemed Sam Powell shares his story of deep betrayal by his denomination and friends. You will hear Megan express speechlessness often, listening to the cruel and undeserved treatment of her friend as Sam shares all. And he does not just share the pain -- he and Susan move forward into a new place, a new life and a new outlook! Megan feels extremely blessed to be the recipient of such a sacred story of loss, grief and freedom. Brought up and trained in Reformed circles, Sam still loves the historic confessions and classic theology of the church. But the culture has left him behind. Now, Sam works as a cook during the day, and pastor to the restless wherever he can. Sam is a brilliant theologian and pastor. I hope you hear his message of Shalom! Sam is married with children and grandchildren, and lives in Minnesota. Find more about Sam and his unique ministry here: Facebook Link: https://www.facebook.com/sampowell365 Website Link: www.sampowellministries.com For a well-written account of Sam's trial, please go here: https://myonlycomfort.com/2023/03/22/heres-what-happened/?fbclid=IwAR0DWuEsPWFnZsfs_543-ifNjloYFmar3M5m4ZCXs10GlAHwgYU7HAQQQmY      

Dr. Maryann Kyle is a celebrated and accomplished vocalist and teacher of teachers. In this podcast interview, Dr. Kyle discusses the remarkable parallels between connection to body and emotions when singing, and connection to body and emotions in mental health. What does it look like to be able to honestly and vulnerably connect to our "divine spark"? What is the "spirit breath"? How can a singer communicate emotion through song and how does that relate to connecting to our spiritual core selves as brilliant creatures? Listen as DK describes healing experiences in her studio and passionately articulates the neuroscience of singing. Dr. Kyle has dedicated her professional life to guiding singers and teachers in their pursuit not only of exceptional singing, but also captivating performance. In addition to her active studio of performers she also actively mentors over thirty teachers of voice and theatre in various universities across the United States, and her students can be found on the stages of the finest opera and musical theatre companies, conservatories and training programs across the globe. Kyle is the founder of MK Studios and MK Productions which provides private instruction and workshop training for singers and teachers. In her spare time, Kyle is in training to compete in extreme sports obstacle course racing. To learn more, go here: https://www.facebook.com/maryann.kyle1/ www.maryannkyle.com https://www.instagram.com/maryannkyle/

Jane comes to Megan through divine friendship. Jane is a healer, a guide and a spacious soul of refuge for all who are suffering. In this episode, Jane and Megan share personal stories from their lives and from the counseling room, doing their best to capture the mystery and sacredness of our inner landscape, as well as the intricate humans surrounding them. They share raw and honest mutual discussion of their journeys toward becoming and what they do to try to companion those they love. Jane has brought together  many years of somatic study and twenty years of clinical experience, along with her own extensive personal Jungian Analysis and her professional training as a Jungian Analyst, She has developed what she refers to as Jungian Somatics. She is certified in dozens of different modalities and creatively intertwines her degrees and experience to mystically and sacredly move throughout the psyche while utilizing archetypal maps and principles, bringing tremendous healing. Jane lives in Toronto and is an advanced candidate with the Ontario Association of Jungian Analysts, a psychotherapist (under supervision) and an expert in the intersection of the body and psyche. Please find Jane and her wondrous offerings here: https://www.janeclapp.com Enjoy this VERY SPECIAL podcast.    

About half of the divorces in the United States are for serious things. They aren't frivolous or "grass is greener" or "I miss the party life" divorces. They are for major marriage-destroying sins such as adultery, addictions, physical abuse, or emotional abuse/neglect. Gretchen calls these "Life-Saving Divorces." Gretchen Baskerville is a Christian divorce recovery leader and researcher. Since 1998, she has worked in churches in the Los Angeles area. She helps heartbroken people find strength, courage, and healing. For more than 20 years she has worked with Christian women and men going through difficult, life- saving divorces, listening with compassion to those who have suffered from domestic violence, betrayal, infidelity, addicted partners, and emotional abuse. Herself the survivor of a toxic marriage, she walked through her own lifesaving divorce and was a single mother for many years. Today she is happily remarried. She is a graduate of Wheaton College with a degree in Bible and Christian Education. For more information, go to: https://LifeSavingDivorce.com Twitter http://twitter.com/GGBaskerville Facebook http://www.facebook.com/lifesavingdivorce Instagram https://www.instagram.com/gretchenbaskerville/ You Tube Gretchen Baskerville’s channel https://www.youtube.com/@lifesavingdivorce

Elle Arters is an expert on parental alienation. She has been encouraging and coaching others for the better part of 10 years through the treacherous minefield of PA. For years, Megan has trusted Elle with any human who is suffering through this agonizing phenomenon. Elle has recently felt led (and called) to open up groups as the interest in her services has recently grown. Through MCCC, you can find help and healing for your current journey. Please listen to this IMPORTANT podcast surrounding one of the most insidious and brutal forms of abuse and then, sign up for our groups here: https://www.mountaincitychristiancounseling.com/general-8 You can find more about Elle here: https://www.facebook.com/ellerenee7777/ https://www.facebook.com/ElleReneeCreative https://www.instagram.com/ellerenee_creative/

Thirty years, four months, and two days after she said, "I do," Karen DeArmond Gardner left an abusive marriage. Karen is now an author, speaker, and trauma advocate. Karen provides emotional and spiritual support for survivors of domestic abuse. She helps women understand what they are going through is normal and necessary, so they can go from hopelessness to hope and from death to life. Karen is the author of Hope for Healing from Domestic Abuse. Karen speaks on "Sitting with Jesus in the Darkness" and training volunteers on trauma and abuse. She lives in Texas with her husband Tom Gardner. Karen is the founder of Another One Free, that includes mentoring and inner healing. Karen and Tom own a private security company. Listen as Karen and Meg discuss why she stayed in abuse for so long and how she found her way out of it. Above all, Karen wants our listeners to know that  God loves you more than he hates divorce (though he doesn't), and loves you more than he loves marriage. You can find Karen on Facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/anotheronefree AND https://www.facebook.com/groups/rootedandrisingtherefuge/ Website: https://anotheronefree.com https://www.instagram.com/karendearmondgardner/ And her book: https://www.amazon.com/Hope-Healing-Domestic-Abuse- Reaching/dp/0825446945/

Patrick and Meg discuss their own painful stories of spiritual abuse and how they have now become healers on the front lines. Patrick Doyle is a renowned counselor and speaker, offering insight and wisdom as he "bone-chillingly" reveals some of his incredibly painful past where he went from pastor to advocate.  Patrick Doyle has over thirty years of working with people from all over in treatment centers, churches, and through his professional office. His authentic and transparent way of leadership has drawn followers from all over the world. Patrick’s own story of emotional and physical abuse has resonated with many. His personal story of pain and survival has filled others with hope. As a public speaker, Patrick takes difficult conversations head on, communicating hard truths with honesty and safety. He leads with wise counsel, compassion, empathy, and caring validation. His perspective comes from a place of personal experience. Patrick’s caring approach has transformed many. Patrick Doyle is passionate about connecting with people so that they may see their individual value and as a result, experience the freedom from the lies that destroy their wellness of spirit. His hope is that others will partner with him in helping others see, believe, and act on their intrinsic value. You can find Patrick and all of his offerings here: https://www.patrickdoyle.life

This episode is PG-13,- rated R! Andrew and Megan discuss how men project childhood woundedness onto their wives as they sexually, mentally, spiritually, physically abuse them to heal themselves. POWERFUL episode. Don’t miss it!

Join Meg and David as they discuss deconstruction, spiritual processing groups, and David Hayward’s amazing and rich journey into freedom and life. Www.nakedpastor.com