The Corner CAFE Podcast

Ruthie Payno-Simmons: Hello, and welcome to Integration Now, where we explore how history continues to shape today’s integration challenges…and what we can do to advance more equitable outcomes for our students. I am Dr. Ruthie Payno-Simmons, Project Director for the Center for Education Equity, Region III at MAEC. We work alongside schools, districts, and state agencies to face the legacy of segregation head-on and turn the promise of integrated public schools into a reality students experience every day. In today’s episode, we focus on districts across the Midwest and Plains region, where patterns of segregation persist despite efforts at reform. What practical steps can education leaders take now to build and sustain more integrated schools? Integration Now is hosted by my colleague Dr. Kathleen King Thorius, a leading scholar whose work focuses on dismantling systemic barriers and advancing culturally responsive practices for historically underserved students. She is a professor and has led major equity-focused initiatives, including founding the Great Lakes Equity Center. This episode, she’s joined by nationally-recognized desegregation and policy scholar, Dr. Sarah Diem, to explore how districts can use data and redesign enrollment and assignment strategies and navigate shifting federal civil rights guidance while leveraging tools and support from their regional Equity Assistance Center. Let’s get started.   Kathleen King Thorius: Good morning, Sarah. Good to see you.   Sarah Diem: Good morning.   Kathleen King Thorius: I’m here with Dr. Sarah Diem. We’re going to talk more about Dr. Diem’s work in just a few minutes, but it’s just amazing to be with you this first business day of the new year to talk about some perpetual issues, but issues that you have a lot of experience working directly with educational leaders around, and of course, the policy background and history of education in the United States is something you bring tons of strength and knowledge around, Dr. Dean. So, thanks so much for being with us today. For those who are listening or watching, I also want to emphasize that Dr. Diem has been a friend of the Equity Assistance Center program for a very long time, supporting Region III through expertise sharing and resource development across many cycles, several cycles of funding when the Region III Center was at Indiana University. So thank you so much, Dr. Diem, for continuing your contributions to the Equity Assistance Center program, and your long career, past, present, and future addressing issues of educational equity. So, with that, I’d love it if you’d just tell us a little bit more about your work, maybe some things you’re working on right now that you’re excited about, and then we’ll jump into some conversation.   Sarah Diem: All right. Well, thank you, Kathleen, and thank you for having me. It’s always such a joy to do anything associated with the Equity Assistance Center. It’s really been, as you said, core to my work and what I value, and I’ve been working with you all since I was an assistant professor, so I just…I’ve been so fortunate and lucky to work alongside you and all of the wonderful people at the Center. So just a little bit about me and my work. I’ve been looking at school desegregation since I was in graduate school, working on my Ph.D. And it was at that time when I was in school, the Supreme Court handed down its decision in Parents Involved. It was the latest decision in school desegregation when they argued that race couldn’t be the sole factor for school districts to use in their student assignment plans in order to achieve diversity. I became really interested in what the response was going to be from school districts as a result of this decision, so in my dissertation, I studied three school districts in three different geographic locations, different in size, different in the factors that they used in their student assignment plans to achieve diversity, and that really laid the foundation of my work moving forward focusing on what school desegregation looked like post-Parents Involved. So, I’ve continued to do that work, but it’s also kind of evolved into looking at, like you had mentioned earlier, what school leaders were doing, to try to make sure that the schools in which they lead are addressing inequities, and for a lot of my work with Anjalé Welton, looking at anti-racist leadership and policy decision-making in schools. So, we’ve worked with some schools around an anti-racist policy decision-making protocol that we developed so they could really walk through policies in their schools and make sure that they’re anti-racist. So that’s been, more recently, a lot of the research that I’ve been doing, and now I’m also engaged in a project with some scholars across the country on school boards and democracy. As you know, school boards have always, always played an important role in local governance and policy decision-making, but since the pandemic, we have really seen them be at the center of conversations, and so, we’re really interested in looking at school boards and how they’re pursuing equity and policy decision making.   Kathleen King Thorius: Thank you so much, Sarah. Yeah, there are a lot of resources you developed for the Region III Center that walked people through, whether it was professional development planning or understanding the relationship between integration and housing policy, getting down to that decision-making that happens every day in schools, and also more planned, sustained policy decision-making that is often made by or affirmed by school boards. So it’s really this holistic approach you’ve always had to understanding contexts, and then the way that context is shaped by geography and identity and politics, absolutely. So you alluded to this, certainly, we’re in a time of major change, I mean, one being that the Department of Education looks nothing like it did even a year ago, and these are incredibly significant changes over time. So, the Equity Assistance Center program has been around since the early 1970s. It has been named within the Civil Rights Act in terms of technical assistance that is to be provided to school districts and state education agencies to support desegregation, particularly racial desegregation at the origin of the program. So I’d like to talk a little bit about desegregation and integration within school districts. So there are many, many districts around the country, around the United States, who are continuing to strive for integrated schools, integrated along race, sex, national origin, religion, ability, etc. So for districts who are actively working to sustain or restore integration, which strategies. have proven most effective? What have you found in your work? And for those who are kind of newer, maybe newer to this work, there are a number of strategies that have been available to districts as they are, in some cases, ordered by the government to desegregate it, including magnet programs or busing… Some of us may be more familiar with that than other strategies. So, which strategies have proven most effective? What have you found in your work? Why don’t we start there?   Sarah Diem: Okay. Well, I think, first off, I would just say that effective strategies for integration can’t just be a one-off approach. I think they really need to be a blend of some of the strategies that you mentioned, as well as, I think, a big piece of it is continuously monitoring school district boundaries. So, as we know, the majority of U.S. public school districts, they use school attendance boundaries to determine which student addresses are assigned to which schools, and there’s been copious amount of research that has shown how redrawing boundaries can be an effective policy tool for integration, for access and opportunity for historically marginalized students, and can even address transportation issues and distance to schools that children have to travel. So, I really think that when a school district is continuously monitoring its population growth and its community, where that population growth is occurring, demographic changes, and then responding to this via school district boundaries, they can work to mitigate the segregated effects of residential segregation that continue to exist, and in many cases, has worsened. And attendance boundaries, that was part of the Parents Involved ruling that I was talking about earlier, that that was offered as one of the ways that could be used to mitigate segregation. So I just wanted to start off with that. But going back to some of these strategies that you mentioned, controlled choice plans that consider integration as part of their assignment process have long proven to be effective. Just as magnet schools and programs, inter-district transfers… And I was recently reading some research that has been done by Erica Frankenberg and colleagues that looked at dual language immersion programs in Los Angeles, and how they’ve had the potential to decrease school segregation and increase student enrollment it they’re appealing across all racial demographics. But they do mention that the key to that is to make sure that all students have access to these programs. I think that’s still a major issue with the programs. So, I think this is just another example of school choice that can help desegregate schools that we need to keep monitoring and that we certainly need more research around. I’ll also go back to, which you mentioned, magnet schools, and magnet schools were historically designed to attract a diverse student body. And they’ve served as another strategy to achieve integration via voluntary school choice. While the current administration has really worked to defund the Federal Magnet Schools Assistant Program, this is a program at the federal level that gives funding to school districts that are working to, either establish or to work on already existing magnet programs. They’re working to defund it. Some of the schools have lost money. They’ve had their grants pulled under the current administration, and some districts have sued in response. There is… there’s still, I want to emphasize, there’s nothing about the current political environment that should deter magnet school leaders for continuing to pursue these efforts. And I think that’s something, for me, and I’ve talked with you about this, that I’ve been thinking about, and that I have to continuously go back to in times like today. What is…what’s still legal? What’s in policy what we can still do to try to achieve or maintain integration in our school district communities? I will also say, though, that to really develop and monitor integration, school districts need to have clear policies. They need to have teams in place and hopefully diverse teams that can help create these policies, monitor these policies. They need to work with their staff to train them to understand these policies. They need to have robust data systems that can monitor the policies, the delivery of them, and the outcomes. And they need to be in communication with their school communities about their efforts and outcomes, right? Because we need to have buy-in with these policies, too. And I also think where our Equity Assistance Centers, why they are so important, because they can partner with these districts, and they can provide technical assistance that’s needed to help them with these efforts. You know, for school districts that this may be new to them, or school districts that have been doing this all along, I think there’s always room for some assistance in this process, especially when the political environment, especially now, is constantly changing. And I think the Centers are also really good at connecting school districts with each other, and they can learn from each other, learn from strategies that have been used, and maybe they could even partner in the future, with their efforts moving forward.   Kathleen King Thorius: Yeah, I love that idea about the cohort approach. Because often districts will feel like they’re going it alone, and those structures don’t necessarily naturally exist for school districts to be partnering in terms of their integration efforts. But we’ve seen that in the past, certainly with the current Region III Center for Educational Equity at the Mid-Atlantic Equity Consortium, a cohort approach in some instances. So that’s something that we want to remind any leaders who may be listening or watching today’s conversation that the Equity Assistance Centers there are not only there to provide direct support and technical assistance, but to link you up into peer networks, and that’s been a major role of the Equity Assistance Center program as well. Thank you for that, that answer. There’s tons of rich information there. I’d like to dig in a little deeper to a couple of the concepts, the tools that you talked about, again, because some districts may be new to this process, especially voluntary integration. And so, you’ve talked about the difference between involuntary and voluntary. You talked about controlled choice. Maybe we could explain a little bit more what that means, so that’s a little defining. And then I also wondered if you can talk with us a bit about communicating and building buy-in or support for some of these approaches. In that, if we look at attendance boundaries, for example, that impacts families. It impacts families, school communities change, you know, which school their children goes to may change. It impacts, like you said, transportation. There may be different transportation issues. When we’re looking at policies that we know are successful or can be part of a successful holistic approach to integration but that do require families to change for the sake of integration, what do you have to say to school leaders who are leading that process? And how to plan a process that really emphasizes the importance with a compelling rationale, right? And also provides families the support for a transition, which could certainly be a significant transition for some families to a new school?   Sarah Diem: Yeah, that’s a really good question, and I hope I have some answers to it, but I’m always reminded, when a new school is being built, or a new school is being built, and boundaries are having to be drawn, and how hotly contested it is, and we see town halls and school board meetings with people that are really passionate about it, because like you said, it impacts their families and their children. Something I also think about too is about school closures and how that happens, how it can go terribly wrong when you’re not informing the community of the decisions that are being made and why, and when it’s done at the last minute. So, I think that what school leaders can do to get that buy-in is you have be in constant communication with your school community, and you have to do that through a variety of ways, right? So, whether it’s having town hall meetings, or it’s communicating through newsletters, or emails, or et cetera, it’s that constant communication, and it’s also getting feedback from your school community, and making them a part of the process as well, so that community engagement is so important. And are you designing committees or task force that have as part of the membership, parents or families, and even students being part of that, too? I think we often, when we’re making these changes, we don’t get the voices from students in this process, and I think they have a lot to say when it comes to school integration and equity and diversity and what their values and beliefs are around that. So, I think that it’s constant engagement at all levels of the process. That’s what I would say for the leadership piece. I was also reading a recent report that was done by the Learning Policy Institute, and they looked at district leadership for racial equity, and they found—and I wrote this down because I think it’s important—they found that in order to advance this work, that five things are essential. That you have to create a strategic plan for equity, you have to build adult capacity, commitment, and accountability. You have to use data to drive the progress toward racial equity, so I think with that community engagement piece, also showing that data to the community is important. Acquiring and allocating resources equitably, and sustaining leadership efforts over time. And I think that’s part and parcel to the community engagement piece and being a leader who want to advance racial equity in their school, in their school district. So, that’s that leadership piece, and I don’t know if you want me to go back to the kind of defining some of these strategies. So, controlled choice plan: these have been really effective, particularly because we live in, particularly now, in an environment where school choice is very important. I mean, I think it’s always been part of the public education discourse, but right now, with privatization and marketization choices, we’re hearing it a lot more, I would say. And controlled choice is effective because it’s still providing families choice on where they want to send their children to school, but it’s under, you know, a controlled system. So whether a school district is taking their district and drawing, um, they have different zones in the district, and if your student is in Zone 2, you can pick from six schools in that zone where they want to go to school. But within that, the district is still trying to ensure that there’s diverse representation in each of the schools, right? And I think a really good example of a controlled choice plan that there’s been a lot of research done on it is the Wake County Public School System in North Carolina. And they’ve partially been successful in their efforts; they’ve used socioeconomic diversity and achievement as part of their efforts as well, and so…you know, again, going back to the Parents Involved decision, being in compliance with the decision, they haven’t used race, and so I think that’s why a lot of their efforts have been successful. More districts are using controlled choice because, again, it’s balancing giving families the opportunities to choose from a number of schools within their catchment area, or their zone, or etc. But still trying to maintain some sort of diversity within the schools as well.   Kathleen King Thorius: Yeah, thank you. There’s a lot there. Like, really concrete approaches that you’re suggesting for us, so that idea of constant communication in multiple forms. If there are to be any—whether they’re small or substantial—changes in a district’s functioning having an uninformed community, a community that’s not feeling that a district leadership is being transparent about the motivation and the reasons behind, including the data in terms of how segregated schools are not good for communities, for lots and lots of reasons. So that idea of messaging and also which data inputs, like, which data are we presenting to our school community and asking of our school community? And how are those being communicated regularly over time in multiple formats? Super important. And not necessarily always the case, right? That kind of communication, very thoughtful communication is occurring. So that’s certainly something an Equity Assistance Center can support with. A lot of the Equity Assistance Center programs over time, have worked with districts and school boards to engage in very intensive strategic planning processes. So, those processes exist, and for folks looking for support for strategic planning across multiple constituents, that’s certainly something that an Equity Assistance Center can help with as well. I also really appreciated your points around socioeconomic status. I won’t go into the weeds on this, but school funding formulas as well, have a connection with that. Socioeconomic integration, I should say, was one of the priorities of the federal administration a few administrations ago. Alongside race, sex, national origin, and religion integration, socioeconomic integration was a priority of the then-acting Secretary of Education. Will you say just a little bit more about how socioeconomic status has been leveraged and consideration of SES being important in terms of successful integration efforts? And then we’ll move to kind of a bit of a different direction after that.   Sarah Diem: Sure. And I think we have to have a caveat that sometimes people think that socioeconomic status can be used as a proxy for race, and I don’t think that it should. I think you have to have a very nuanced understanding of socioeconomic status if you want to try to get at race without using race as a factor, right? So, it can’t just be what school districts have used, right? They’ve used poverty levels, economically disadvantaged percentages in their school districts. It needs to be…when you’re doing a student assignment plan, it’s looking at, okay, what’s the average household income of a census tract? It could be looking at, what are the home values in that community, too, right? So, it’s looking at socioeconomics from a number of different vantage points, and not just poverty, which is important, but it has to be one of many factors. When school districts look at it in a more nuanced way, I think that’s when they can be more successful in achieving diversity along race, along class, along language, etc. And again, I keep going back to the Parents Involved ruling, because it was such an important ruling. Even before that ruling, a lot of school districts were kind of seeing the writing on the wall in terms of where other court rulings were going before the Supreme Court ruling, in terms of desegregation and being able to use race and student assignment policies. So, they had started using socioeconomic status, and so I think that’s why when you were talking about a few administrations ago, that was important to them as well, right? Because it’s still a legal option that you can use in your student assignment plans.   Kathleen King Thorius: Yeah, and thanks for reminding us of various ways of thinking about socioeconomic status of a community and of individual households, absolutely. All right. So we talked about this, we’ve mentioned it a couple of times, but we’ve had some pretty significant shifts at the federal level in terms of the Department of Education, and I guess one of the manifestations of those shifts are the reductions in civil rights enforcement capacity. And so, for those who aren’t familiar with this, we know there’s an Office for Civil Rights that’s under the Department of Education, the U.S. Department of Education, which does receive complaints. and investigate complaints and then work with school districts or other public educational agencies to remediate when civil rights, student civil rights have been found to be violated. So at this point, we’ve seen, just numerically, a reduction in the regional offices, or, at least, I think at this point, 7 of the 12 regional offices have been eliminated, and hundreds and hundreds of staff across the Department of Education more broadly, but certainly a major impact in staff reduction with the Office for Civil Rights. Yet, there’s still legally required to be an Office for Civil Rights, and the investigation and remediation of civil rights is still required under the Civil Rights Act in a number of titles or sections of law that exist at the federal level related to civil rights. So, we’ve seen this reduction in capacity, which, in talking with district leaders, you know, there’s a lot of uncertainty. There’s a lot of uncertainty for what districts are obligated to do, to monitor, to report on related to civil rights. So, what’s your advice? Essentially, what’s your advice for district leaders, amidst this uncertainty, what steps can they take now to interpret and apply obligations that continue to exist?   Sarah Diem: Yeah, and Kathleen, I’ll also say: they had to bring some of the staff members that, they had let go back in December because…   Kathleen King Thorius: Yes, I saw that. Yes.   Sarah Diem: … of the overload of cases that they have, and so…   Kathleen King Thorius: Yes.   Sarah Diem: We’ll wait and see what happens with, you know, if we’re gonna have another government shutdown, and what’s gonna happen with those people moving forward, but…I mean, my advice to leaders: I think if you value equity and if you are anti-discrimination, you keep doing the work, and you report on the cases that, if you see discrimination happening, or, you know, that you still, you still do what you’re doing, right? Because, like you said, we still have federal laws in place that say you can’t do this. I will say, though, that back in December, the Department of Justice published this final rule removing protections against disparate impact discrimination, you know, from its implementing in the regulations of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act. So, that’s very worrisome, but I think we still have to keep fighting if we believe in civil rights, if we believe in equity. So,I know school leaders that I work with that believe in this, this doesn’t deter them. They’re still doing the work that they think is important for their students and for their school communities. That would be my advice. I know, I know we’re because we’re all living in this state of uncertainty right now, but we can’t just not do what we know is the right thing to do.   Kathleen King Thorius: To underscore that point, the right thing, certainly because leaders believe in this work, but also in terms of the law. Not only is this all required under law. It’s legally defensible, right? Because we have federal civil rights law that requires that we’re monitoring students’ access to participation in and outcomes of public education. Right? And so, all of this work, focusing on integrated schools, focusing on equitable access or outcomes for different student groups on the basis or in relation to race or sex, for example. Those are required. That’s required that all students have access to the same opportunities, the same educational, high-quality educational opportunities. And so, all of this work is legally defensible. I want to be really clear with district leaders, you are obligated to do this…   Sarah Diem: Mm-hmm.   Kathleen King Thorius: …and it is defensible to do this. You have federal law backing those kinds of decisions and commitments, and just to be really clear that none of that has changed. What we are seeing changed is the capacity to monitor; what is required to remediate; perhaps how in-depth an investigation may be around civil rights violation. We may be seeing—and this happens across each administration, every federal administration, so we’re not even just speaking about this particular administration—that how the Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights under the Secretary of Education interprets…   Sarah Diem: Yeah.   Kathleen King Thorius: …federal law is reflected in guidance that then is pushed out from the Office for Civil Rights to school districts. So you have a sense for what may be investigated more than other things, or how, for example, Title IX may be interpreted. We’re gonna, there’s lots of resources you can look for around that.   Sarah Diem: Mm-hmm.   Kathleen King Thorius: But the federal law has not changed in terms of civil rights obligations, so you’re galvanized. I want to just remind leaders that they’re galvanized by that.   Sarah Diem: Right. Yeah, and I will say, too, advice to leaders right now, with this administration, wanting to push everything down to the state level, that if you haven’t already, making sure that you’re connecting yourself or working with someone to connect you with your local representatives, your State Board of Education, your state education department. Who are the people that you’re talking to in your state, that you’re being connected with, that you’re, like you said, that you’re providing feedback, that you’re giving comments about what’s happening, right? Because they represent us, too. And if this is going where the current administration wants it to go, we need to have really good partnerships and relationships with the people at the state level.   Kathleen King Thorius: The state. Mm-hmm. Absolutely, yes, yes, great. Thank you, Sarah.   Sarah Diem: Mm-hmm.   Kathleen King Thorius: Alright, so as we wrap up, we talked a bit about this, certainly, about community engagement and really the political durability of integration work. But we’re certainly in, in my lifetime, it feels anyway, a more politically divisive environment than I’ve ever seen. And having done this work a really long time, district leaders are navigating very politically divisive contexts where information is, you know, being shared on social media, and often circumventing or undermining long-standing communication processes that have existed in communities. So, we talked a bit about engagement and messaging for district leaders in their communities. But can you say a little bit more about forms of stakeholder or constituent engagement you’ve seen? And also, how district leaders may prepare for and address conflict that essentially inevitably emerges when talking about racially or even socioeconomically integrated schools?   Sarah Diem: So, I think what I’ve learned as someone who does this work, and who has worked with school leaders who do this work, too, is that we can’t do this work alone. Something that I thought about when you said when conflict arises… Push back to this work has always existed, right? There’s always been conflict, there’s always been people that claim that we don’t need to be doing this work. So, I think when we have teams, when we’re working together in partnership, that really helps us push this work forward. So I would say, first and foremost, to make sure that you have a good team in place in your school district that wants to do this work, too. And there are, even though we are so politically divisive right now, I think the majority of us, um, this is really important to us, and I see that every day. Whether you see people out protesting, for democracy or just talking in your local community about, you know, people asking, “Well, what can I do to support your efforts in education?” I think almost a year ago, when the dismantling of the Department of Education started happening, I can’t tell you how many people were like, “Well, how can I help? What can I do?” You know, and so I think there are people out there, but like we had talked about earlier, how are we doing that coalition building in our communities around this work? I think when you do that, that then helps with when conflicts come up, when you’re wanting and needing to get that buy-in for the messaging that you’re trying to get across. I think that that still exists, and I think that, yes, it’s different right now, but I don’t think, I don’t think it’s any different than what’s happened historically. Oftentimes it’s two steps back, you know, and then one step forward, and we just have to keep on it if we think this is important ultimately for children, students, right? Because I think we lose focus that’s why we’re doing all of this work, right? Because we want to build new generations of young people that will continue this work moving forward when we’re no longer here. So that’s what I think of, and that’s what I think partnerships, relationship building, as someone who works, you know, in a higher education institution, I think research practice partnerships are so important, and they make me a better scholar and a better person when I’m working with practitioners that are, you know, doing this work every single day. And I know that, at least with the people that I’ve worked with, I hope that it’s been mutually beneficial, and it’s not something that once we work on something, we never talk to each other again. I know one district leader, we talk all the time about if an issue is coming up in their school and they just need some advice, or vice versa. So it’s those kind of relationships, I think, that you need to build, that can help sustain you in this work as well.   Kathleen King Thorius: Yeah, thanks for reminding us that the network is bigger sometimes than it seems. And also the importance of shared governance structures in school districts and structures where school leaders are intentionally inviting broad participation across multiple identities, belief systems, experiences, roles within the community. Those kinds of practices are crucial for any Democratic public institution. And especially, they’re necessary in times of uncertainty or more perceivable public conflict around issues of equity and fairness in public education. So that’s a really important reminder for district leaders, for state leaders: who is your team? How is that team intentionally cultivated across multiple perspectives and lived experiences? That’s an essential foundation for really any and all democratic work in our public institutions. So, Dr. Sarah Diem, thank you so much for your time and sharing your expertise, and also reminding us that research is still important as well. The function of our higher education system and partnering between scholars who… many of us educational scholars have histories, you know, whether it’s in the classroom or in school leadership at the local, or that even the state or national level, so thanks for that. Good reminder as well. And again, your Equity Assistance Centers have a strong relationship with scholars who do this work. Thanks for all of those reminders, and also really concrete ideas.   Sarah Diem: Thanks, Kathleen.   Kathleen King Thorius: Take care, thank you.   Ruthie Payno-Simmons: Thank you for listening to Integration Now. These conversations remind us that advancing integration takes critical reflection, partnership, and action. If you’d like to continue the conversation or explore how the Region III Equity Assistance Center can support your work, we invite you to connect with us at maec.org. Until next time.    

Nikevia Thomas: Hello everybody. This is Nikevia. Jessica Webster: And Jessica. Nikevia Thomas: From MAEC’s CAFE and you’re listening to a Corner CAFE podcast. Families, schools, and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So let’s get started. Jessica Webster: Welcome back, everybody. Today’s episode, we’re joined by two educational leaders in Pennsylvania, Nikki Huggan and Chris Wolfel from the Colonial Intermediate Unit 20 Program in Easton, Pennsylvania. But before we introduce them, I think it’s important to explain a little educational history and how school districts are supported across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania by a system of what we call, Intermediate Units or IUs. Every school district is assigned to an intermediate unit, which provides a broad range of services. Things like curriculum development and instructional improvement, educational planning services, instructional material services and technology, continuing professional development, pupil personnel services, management services, and state and federal agency liaison services. Many of our intermediate units also provide special education programs for students who have more complex needs as well. In all total, Pennsylvania has 29 intermediate units. We often talk about the importance of two-way communication. And so I’m really excited for today’s podcast because we are going to highlight an example of how to build a system to tackle some tough conversations in education. Today, we are going to learn how one intermediate unit responded to growing frustrations and concerns of families by co-creating the Colonial IU 20 Parent Support T.E.A.M. This group was created in 2018 to connect families directly with IU leaders in order to create a dynamic system for two-way communication and learning. This team works towards making improvements in building positive relationships with the IU and they hope to bring better outcomes for children while also bringing a sense of community and belonging to IU families. Nikevia Thomas: Thank you so much for that background, Jessica. Now, let’s introduce Nikki and Chris. So Nikki Huggan is a wife and mother of two children with mitochondrial disease. Gavin and Hayden, both of whom have IEPs. She and her family live in East Bangor in the northeast corridor of Pennsylvania, just south of the Poconos. Nikki co-leads the Colonial IU 20 Parent Support TEAM, or together, educating, advocating moms, dads, and families of Bangor Area School District IEP support team. She is the vice chair of the Regional Family Leaders Council for the families to the Max statewide Family Network. Consumer or representative for Bangor Area School District on the Local Task Force 20 and is an ambassador for the United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation. Nikki is an inspired advocate who works closely with educational and medical communities to better the lives of individuals in Pennsylvania, particularly those who are medically fragile. Jessica Webster: And alongside Nikki, we have Dr. Chris Wolfel. Chris has spent over 20 years working at Colonial Intermediate Unit 20. He started his service journey as a bus monitor and substitute paraprofessional, and after receiving his degree from Penn State, he became a special education teacher in autistic support. He then transitioned to educational administration and is now the executive director. Chris has his doctorate in educational leadership from Delaware Valley University, where he is now an adjunct professor as well. Chris also owns and operates his own consulting company called Leading With Optimism. He’s a master trainer in therapeutic aggression control techniques. Chris is active in his community by volunteering for recreational sports organizations and Special Olympics, and he is committed to influencing people to be positive in all situations. His focus is addressing challenges and issues by creating opportunities through creative solutions. He is married to his love, his friend, and his everything, Beth, I love that. Beth and Chris have four amazing children, Noah, Jack, Gracie, and Maya. So we’re ecstatic to have you both with us. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Nikevia Thomas: Well, let’s jump right in. Can you tell us about Colonial IU 20 and what services you provide to students and families? Chris Wolfel: Nikki, I guess, you want me to take that one, huh? Nikevia Thomas: I’m thinking that’s your wheelhouse, Chris. Chris Wolfel: All right, all right. Well, Jessica did a great job explaining intermediate units in Pennsylvania. So let me just break it down about IU 20, which is one of 29 intermediate units in the Commonwealth. And in our region, we’re currently serving over 86,000 public school students. And at our IU, we have approximately 1,300 full-time and part-time staff. We do support 13 school districts, three career tech centers, charter schools, and non-public schools in our three counties. And we provide services ranging from full-time special ed services to itinerant services to truancy intervention to behavioral health services. And our student population is ages three through 22 years of age. We also provide curriculum and professional development, educational technology support, emergency planning, coordination, joint purchasing, healthcare consortium, and transportation services. And most important, we work really closely with Nikki and Katrina and our CIE 20 parent team to support our families. Jessica Webster: And let me just clarify real quick, for anyone who’s listening who might not be in the realm of education, when you say, itinerant special education supports, can you give an example of what that might be for someone who has an IEP? Chris Wolfel: Yeah, absolutely. It’s a great question and a good clarification. So when we talk about itinerant supports, we’re talking about those services such as, speech and language therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, audiology, those type of services where we’re providing, you know, support either one-on-one through group services, or just supporting through consultation with classroom teachers. Jessica Webster: Perfect, thank you for that. So Nikki, tell us a little bit from your perspective, what was happening in 2018 that led to the design of your parent support team? Nikki Huggan: I wish Katrina was here with me. Katrina Campbell founded the Colonial IU 20 Parent Support TEAM And honestly, as with a lot of things, it came out of a bad experience. A lot of times, families hit a wall and they don’t know what to do, and that’s how it happened. Katrina was in an IU classroom with her oldest son, Sammy, and he did not have a good experience. And she was like, “Now here I am, I’m in this classroom and I don’t know anybody else who’s in here. How do these families connect? How do we get them together? It doesn’t make sense.” And one of the things I think we’ve all figured out early on is the chain of command is very different in an IU classroom versus a district classroom. So nobody knew who they should be going to. So it led to frustration. And in all honesty, I don’t wanna make Chris uncomfortable here with this, but you know, he’s the only person that really truly listened to her. When she got upset, she was gonna go the lawyer route, she was gonna do all these things and he sat down with her and Katrina’s husband said, “Let’s give this guy a chance. Let’s see if he really is saying and believes in the things that he is saying to us.” She knew that that partnership would be there. And she found me because I’m on the Local Task Force and we connected that way and we’ve been inseparable pretty much since. Right now, we have 616 families on our support team. Nikevia Thomas: That’s amazing. Jessica Webster: Wow. Nikki Huggan: This village that we’re working to create, everybody on this team plays an important role in this village. We all bring something to the table and we all help each other through, you know, everything. Jessica Webster: Wow, that sounds really powerful. Chris, tell us about how you initially worked with these families who were not happy about what was happening at the IU to start the program. So if I was a principal or a school leader, can you walk us through the steps of bringing people together and what that looked like in the beginning? Chris Wolfel: Sure, and you know, let me expand a little bit too on what Nikki just talked about too, what was happening in 2018, you know, from the school side. And even just for me and what I was experiencing is that, I was kind of new in my leadership role as finally being able to have the ability to start making some meaningful change, you’re a teacher, you’re kind of limited with the change that you can make. And even as a principal or as a supervisor of special education limited, get into a higher level leadership position, you can really start to make some changes. And one of the things that was really frustrating to me as a teacher and also as a supervisor, was that there were a lot of barriers in our intermediate unit that did not allow for clear communication between families and our classroom staff. And those are barriers that created mistrust. For example, procedures that didn’t allow families to visit a classroom. You know, that from a family’s perspective, it’s, well, if I’m not allowed to see what’s going on, then what are you doing in there? Which makes sense. The other thing was there was this movement that was going on through the state, through our technical training office called, Batan, as well as, the Department of Education, the Bureau of Special Education called, Presuming Competence. And CIE 20 was one of the first I used to work on this pilot and it really opened my eyes and a lot of key people at this IU to the fact that we are limiting our expectations for people with disabilities. And that was a change, a mind shift change that was really important. The other thing is, I was going to meetings and sitting in meetings where other school administrators, I just didn’t feel they were truly listening to families and really trying to understand the challenges that the families were struggling with. So as Nikki shared, then we had this one-on-one situation with Kat where when I got involved, it seemed that we were already in a really bad situation because people were not just being straight honest with Katrina about what happened. And just to go in and say, “We made a mistake, we’re wrong,” was I think what built that bridge to creating that first opportunity of somebody’s finally being truthful. And that’s really what started the conversations with Katrina and I, and there were times where Katrina and I, we got into it, I’m not saying in a bad way, but there were times where we couldn’t move together at the same pace that we wanted to. And you know, that was I think, frustrating for Kat at times, and I could understand that. But you know, change takes time and it’s hard to explain to a family that I know this is really, really important, but you gotta understand that the process takes a while to do. But you know, again, that one-on-one interaction with Katrina, I think is what started to build the foundation for that parent support group. And then, I’m sorry, Jessica, you wanted me to answer a question? Jessica Webster: No, I appreciate that insight. So you have this experience with this one parent, help us connect the dots. How did it go from one parent with one situation to this bi-directional group of 600 people? I mean, I’ve seen the pictures and I’ve heard you talk about this before, you have participation in this group. So help us connect that dot, how did you get from one parent who’s frustrated to bringing a whole group together to begin to make real change? Chris Wolfel: I think for me, it was seeing how that situation affected Kat, emotionally, physically. It was really hard to see a family go through what she was going through. And from my perspective, I’d never wanted a family to have to have those feelings ever, the mistrust, the just being sad about what happened. And I think for Katrina, she didn’t want to see another family go through that. So we had to really start to think, how can we take a really bad situation and get it back to where it needs to be, but also, how can we make sure that this doesn’t happen in the future? And that I think is what led to, you know, Kat and I kind of just holding hands and saying, let’s figure this out and let’s start to bring people into this, you know, people like Nikki that could help us to grow and provide supports to our families and get our staff here at the IU to think differently, to get communities to start thinking differently about how to make everyone feel like they belong and they’re part of something. Nikki Huggan: I wanna add something onto this because I do wanna say, you know, to anybody who is listening to this, one of the things that was always important in this team is that it is parent-run and that yes, the IU are our partners and we want this to stay completely sustainable even long after we’re all gone from these areas. But it’s having the right people in the right place at the right time. This wouldn’t have happened if there weren’t so many other factors like Chris was talking about, the presuming competence, that was Project Max. And Project Max has morphed into families to the Max, which is now, a statewide effort. It was before, but it was pocketed and now it is completely family-run as well. And with the help of the partnerships with Pat and Peel and Unay and the Bureau and with that overarching the state at this point, I really feel like there could be a lot more movement just like this team, I mean, I can’t tell you enough how important every person on this team is to me. And how important everybody at the IU, all the employees, they are our partners, they are with us. And I mean, right now, it’s just Chris and I on here, but when he comes to breakfast, we come with topics that are going to help families and he brings the people that are gonna have the answers because he might be the executive director, but he doesn’t know every single thing that’s happening. So there’s a lot of important pieces here and he’s putting in the work. Jessica Webster: Yeah. Nikki Huggan: And so is everyone else at the IU. Jessica Webster: And when you say, it’s parent-run, Nikki, why is that important that it’s the parents that are running the support team? Nikki Huggan: Okay, so parents get angry sometimes, okay. And yes, we want the mindset to be that we’re all going to work together and we’re gonna find ways to make this happen. But there’s a trust, there’s broken trust sometimes with school, with the IU, with all of those pieces. And if we were run by the IU or school districts, people might not join. That’s why I say, we’re partners and we go through all of this together, but we make the decisions, Katrina and I have, you know, a core group of people and then we bring in more people all the time and say, “Hey, what are your thoughts?” Because it’s important for families to have a voice. Jessica Webster: Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s the whole idea of like, you’re also sincerely setting the agenda, not coming in necessarily to like the school districts and like we invite parents in, but it’s, come talk to us about the things we wanna talk about, right, that we think are important. And this kind of gives you more of a balance so that parents can tell us as school leaders what’s important to them, which may be the same and maybe a little different as well. Nikki Huggan: This model allows us the option to disagree. We’re not always gonna agree on everything, and that’s okay because if we can come back and work on a compromise together, that’s what really matters when we keep our students center, you know, model and think about it that way, that’s how we’re going to win for every student. Jessica Webster: I’m wondering, in hindsight, as you look at what you’ve done and how you started, are there any modifications you would’ve made or is there something differently that you would’ve done that it would’ve made you move along with the way that you have as the group has grown and evolved? Nikki Huggan: Well, I can say something. So one of the things I think that we would have done, and this may seem a little crazy, but it took us a long time to do things with our kids, like to bring our kids together. It was like we found our village and we were so excited to be together. And then one day we realized like, hey, our kids need a village too, and they enjoy being together. So we started doing all kinds of things together. Like we help raise money for the Special Olympics by doing the polar plunge. Oh my goodness, we do movie days in the summer and Chris has helped us get tickets to Phantom Games and our kids just love being together. And that’s a whole nother level, but we didn’t do it as early as I think we would have if we could go back. Nikevia Thomas: Which also then keeps it very student-centered. Jessica Webster: Yeah, it does help when you have the students there. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Having student voice. Nikki Huggan: And it’s a full family. It’s a family then, it’s about the family, not, you know, I think that’s really powerful. Chris Wolfel: Yeah, and I don’t think there’s anything different. You know, when I think back to just from the start when we had this challenge, right, with Katrina and the IU, you know, it was kind of working from your gut and from your heart. And I think leading with your heart is so important. And there’s a book by Tommy Spaulding called, “Heart-Led Leader.” And I’ve said, I think it’s a must-read for any school leader because it takes you through this journey to really look at people that have been in really tough situations and led from their heart and the outcomes. So I think that’s the place that I was trying to come from. And the first step is, you have to build a relationship and that’s what Katrina and I had to do. That’s, I think what we do every time a new family comes to us, the first step, is always build a relationship. And then secondly is, empower the family. And that was really important for Kat. I remember when I met with her and some of our meetings were just going through the IEP and talking about each section and what does each section include. What are important steps from the school team’s perspective, from the family and just understanding each section and understanding what should be in the IEP and how does a family contribute. And in hindsight, as Katrina and I were going through that process, that was kind of the hindsight of why didn’t we do more and more of this with our special education teachers? Why aren’t we having these conversations in our pre-training with college students and how do they prepare for how to have these conversations with families. And I think Nikki, that’s what’s led to some of even the work on the family engagement evenings where we’re trying to train families led to the IEP binder to empower families, to organize things, to have resources because like the bad acronyms that we throw out as educators. Nikki Huggan: Yeah. Chris Wolfel: That, you know, we know and we have this like language that we use that’s just all acronyms and families, they don’t know. And unfortunately, they don’t speak up and say, “Hey, stop the meeting. What in the world are you talking about? What does that mean?” So you know, we need to make sure that we empower families to have that skill, that knowledge. And it’s interesting, Nikki, we just talked about this in class, the Delaware Valley University class where Nikki was a guest speaker and we talked about research that shows that even when there’s really good family engagement between schools and families, if the family doesn’t have that core knowledge and understanding to feel that they’re prepared, they won’t engage, even if you provide hundreds and hundreds of opportunities, they won’t come because they don’t feel comfortable and they don’t feel comfortable to be at the table. Nikki Huggan: You know, I presented earlier this week to medical professionals and one of the things that we said was, you need to provide hope and resources because families need not just stuff thrown at them, they need resources and they need hope that it’s gonna work out. And that goes for school too. I mean, we need that hope that it’s going to work out, that everything is gonna be okay. And sometimes, that’s really hard, but all of these resources that are out there, there’s no direct path to them. So we need guidance to find the path that makes the most sense. I mean, and just when you think that you have it under control, your child ages. Exactly. Jessica Webster: And the whole thing changes. Nikki Huggan: I mean, I have an 11-year-old and I’m scared of transition, but I know that with all the people I’ve surrounded myself with, that someone is going to have some great advice for me. And this is a really lonely journey. So when you are a professional, like Chris said to himself, this is what I wanna do with myself, there is not a parent that it was like, I am gonna have a special needs child. That is what I am going to do. I am gonna make sure, nobody says that. So we need help because we didn’t expect this. And there are so many different levels of families, every family has a different dynamic. So this journey is not easy. And that’s why things like this team and having, you know, people around us, like all of these IU leaders at IU 20 live and breathe this, they are with us. If I called Chris tonight and said, “I don’t know what to do about this,” he would help me. If I called, you know, any of them, they would be there for me. And that’s huge. Jessica Webster: Yeah, I think you make a really good point there, Nikki, in that it is isolating. I think there are parts of parenthood that I often feel very unsure of next steps as my children continue to age and develop. And as parents, we’re always thinking like, is this just happening to me or is this happening to everybody, right? Is this developmentally appropriate? Am I doing the right thing? It’s not something that most people don’t get a ton of training and resources. And I think families do need that. And they do need the reassurance of, you’re doing a good job, you’re on the right track. I like what you said about having hope, but I think it’s really important that we emphasize the hope with a plan, not just the, oh, it’s gonna be fine, it’s all gonna turn out okay, right? Because that causes a lot of anxiety too. But that whole idea of like, if we work together and we come up with this plan, we can make progress together. That’s a very powerful statement to think about that. So I hear you saying, I heard you mention a breakfast that occurs, I think once a month, and I heard you say, parent nights where you’re teaching some processes and procedures. So talk to me a little bit about how your meetings are structured for this team. Nikki Huggan: So once a month, we have a breakfast during the school year, and then in the summer, we do day activities with the kids. And we do a dinner because you know, we need to decompress too. We’re, you know, families. So during the school year, every other month, we invite the IU. Sometimes, we have to invite them more than usual because there’s so many topics that families wanna hear about. But it is nice to have, you know, times for us to just be together. And Chris and everyone from the IU is very aware, like sometimes, they’ll leave a breakfast early so that we do have some time together to kind of decompress after they’re gone and talk about what’s been said. But what we do is, normally Katrina will go to Chris and say, “Here’s what we have going on, here’s what families are talking about, what do you think we can do with these topics?” And then they work together on a plan. Chris Wolfel: Yeah, and you know, depending on what the topic is, then I try to find who’s the person here at the IU that’s best that can go with to the breakfast, speak to provide information, background information, answer questions. But the rest of the meeting is, I don’t know, Nikki, it’s kind of organic, you know, we eat, we listen, we talk, we have fun. And throughout those conversations, you know, we really try to help to support one another. And you know, I hope, I don’t know what the meeting looks like from an outside observer, but I hope like if someone came from the outside, they wouldn’t even see a separation of family in school. They would say, it’s just a bunch of people talking about kids and talking about services, but we’re trying to support the families. But the other great thing is, the families are supporting us. And whether it’s me or whether, it’s another IU representative at the meeting, we learn so much from our families about what’s working well, what do we need to revise, what do we need to enhance. We’ve learned so much from our families to make our services better and more supportive. And without these type of things, like these breakfasts or these evening events or these one-on-one conversations, we wouldn’t be in the place that we were. So it’s really critical. Nikki Huggan: So I do wanna say like, it is really organic and I do believe that if you walked in, you wouldn’t really know what was happening. Everybody’s laughing and having fun and working together, but I know that families have a sense of pride that they’re making change. I can tell you, you know, one family came to a breakfast and she pitched an idea to Chris and said, we should have this to help families. And when he went back and implemented it, I think she just felt like she was on top of the world. I mean, that’s absolutely huge that not only are we getting together, and the whole point of it was to put a face to a name because what was happening at the beginning was, we went to a meeting, our very first meeting with the IU and most people didn’t even understand that the IU provides services, but your school district is still in charge of your child’s education. There was so much confusion and families felt like even more lost at first until they started to get to know everyone at the IU. And then they would be like, “Oh, well, that’s Chris, he listens.” So when we’re at the next breakfast, I’ll tell him what I think. Or there’s Jackie and I know that she’ll hear me out on this. And again, we are not always gonna get along. In fact, at our last breakfast, there was an issue where like both sides did not see eye to eye and it was okay because we’ve built this relationship. Even we had new families there that had never been to a breakfast before. And they were like, “Wow.” Even though they didn’t get along and it didn’t all work, nobody came out a winner, it was okay. Chris Wolfel: Nikki, I thought you were gonna share the one evening. And I don’t know if it was during COVID, I don’t know if it was COVID or it was just an evening virtual event that we were having, but we had a family that for their first time attended the event and was posting some really radical comments in the chat. You know, like, “What kind of BS is this? Where are all the real families?” And you know, just was really shocked by this kind of interaction that was going on. You know, we were able to offline make connections, you know, with this family that the next day, had a one-on-one. And you know, you could hear that over the years through various interactions with this family and schools was the door was shut and didn’t feel that anyone listened. And that was a change, you know, the fact of having the conversation, listening, following through on items and starting to create some action that changed that person’s perspective. And provided that hope that maybe there is good family school communication and when there’s issues, we can work together to find solutions. So it’s interesting, you know, when families have gone through their journey. Some of our families have faced some pretty unfortunate circumstances where, you know, even their own esteem and self-esteem about how it’s gonna work out is very low at that point. Jessica Webster: Yeah, doesn’t feel real, this feels like a setup. Nikki Huggan: No, and before we move to something else, I do wanna say, we have been really fortunate, you know, we have been going to trainings anytime there was anything. And when we approached Chris and said, “We wanna morph this family engagement a little bit, we wanna like, you know, change things up.” And he was like, “Okay, what are you thinking?” And we said to him, “First, it shouldn’t just be families, it should be families and educators. If this is gonna work, we have to be in it together.” So then we changed the name to Family and Educator Engagement Series and we try to come up with topics and put both sides out there so that it’s educators wanna show up and families wanna show up and it’s not just about one side. And that’s really important to us. In fact, in October, we’re having, October 30th, we’re gonna do IEP tips from both sides. So you can get ideas. We actually had a school district approach us and ask for a flyer so that they could get a substitute for a teacher so she could show up. And I was like, “This is amazing.” Jessica Webster: Yay. That’s right, that’s right. That’s awesome. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Jessica Webster: That’s awesome. Nikevia Thomas: That’s great. Nikki, so I wanna ask in connection to that, like as a parent, how has this program impacted your perception of school and family relationships? Nikki Huggan: So I have two medically complex children. So for me, when my children were diagnosed, my son was diagnosed at three, I went into like a very bad place. Like I was so depressed, I had to quit working. My whole life was my job. It was how I saw myself. So to not work was really hard. And then when I started thinking about school, you know, I’m in early intervention and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I’m overwhelmed now, what am I gonna feel like, you know, when he’s in school?” And I, one morning just woke up and was like, “Okay, I have to figure this out. I have to work through this. I have to find a way to make this work.” I didn’t have the tools though, and I didn’t know anybody else in the same situation as me. I didn’t have any friends with kids who had needs. And then when my son started kindergarten, I still didn’t have any friends who had children with needs. And I thought, this is a lot harder than I ever thought it was going to be. And when I met Katrina, I started on the Local Task Force. ’cause I was like, “I have to find people, like there’s gotta be people, I have to find them.” And when I met her, my son was in first grade and I was down again because I was like, “Okay, where are my people? How am I supposed to figure this out?” Because there’s no books out there. And like I said, the resources are scattered. So it wasn’t until we got a new special ed director in our district that I was like, “I have to start, you know, building these relationships. I have to start working closer.” I already had a good relationship with the principal at my son’s school and his teachers. But building that relationship further up. And I mean, I even have a good relationship with our superintendent now in our district. And all of that comes from this same model. And if I hadn’t found my people, if I hadn’t found this model, I wouldn’t be able to do all those things. And I hope this makes sense ’cause it’s a like a lot to put into one question for me. Nikevia Thomas: Yes. Nikki Huggan: I truly believe that unless every person around my child is getting the best education they can get that he’s not either or she’s not either. So it’s not just about my son and my daughter, it’s about everybody there getting what they need. And in order to do that, I’ve had to spend a lot of time building relationships. In fact, I can use this as an example of this too. Like Katrina and Chris have been very close since I’ve met them. And it took me a long time ’cause I didn’t know where my place was in that relationship. And I mean, Chris and I have presented together quite a few times now and I do feel like we’ve built something that is separate from what he and Katrina have. Because at first, I felt like I was the third wheel in their time. Jessica Webster: I just keep hearing the words, time and like the humility of like, going in knowing that this isn’t going to be easy. And Chris, I’m thinking about that like, you know, I come from the realm of being a school principal, a school administrator. And I know that it’s super tough to be a leader and have to hear that families aren’t happy with what’s going on or they’re feeling frustrated and that there’s a kind of a sense of like, oh my gosh, I don’t know about you. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I screwed up. They’re not happy, I want everyone to be happy. I wanna do the right thing.” But how do you keep you and the professionals from becoming defensive during those tough conversations? ‘Cause I think that’s the key, is that sense of humility I keep hearing in your voice about, you know, yeah, we messed up sometimes, sometimes, we’re gonna mess up. And so how do you work on that? Or what techniques do you employ to kind of work on that? Chris Wolfel: It’s really tough when families share their frustration or they are dissatisfied with services. And it’s tough because, at least for me, and I think I could speak for a lot of our staff, we feel like we failed them. And we don’t wanna fail our children and we don’t wanna fail our families. But I don’t take it personally. And I try to encourage other educators not to take it personally. I try to encourage them, listen, try to truly understand how the family feels and use those moments that, you know, you see as challenges, as opportunities and opportunities to improve. So you know, when families share information, whether it’s good or bad, you have to look at ’em as the goods or moments to celebrate. And the bad are what I call, our gaps. And those are areas that we need to improve upon. And you know, my advice is when tensions and emotions are high, you know, what we have to do is, we have to take a step back, keep our mouths shut, and listen and listen with empathy and really focus in on where are those areas that we can find agreement and move forward from there. I think too many times people focus on the disagreements and they get stuck and then they can’t move forward. So it’s important that, you know, you’re always looking for win-win situations and I think Nikki or Jessica, you know, I think we said this earlier, is you gotta keep the focus on the student. It’s always the most important. And a lot of times, I think when there’s disagreement, we lose focus of the student. And you can’t do that. Nikki Huggan: You know, sometimes even in the best times you’re most optimistic, you’re trying your hardest, there’s personality conflict or you’re not gonna get along with every single person that’s in your, you know, student’s life. But if you’re both on the same page where you’re saying, “Hey, listen, it’s not about us agreeing, it’s not about you, it’s not about me, and we’re keeping it student-centered,” then it can still work out. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah, keeping the focus on the student, it’s very important. Chris, I’m wondering, how has this journey, you’ve talked a lot about your approach and I gotta read this book, “Heart-Led Leader.” How has this journey impacted you as a leader, as an educational leader? Chris Wolfel: Yeah, it’s humbled me. It’s definitely made me work harder. We have to do better and we always have to improve and we need to be champions for our children and our families. And it’s also inspired me. It’s motivated me to continue to create a community that truly embraces love, respect, and belonging for all. I see too many times that people are excluded or not connected and that really leads to some really bad things for people. And you know, everybody needs to go back to kindergarten and remember when we were sitting and we were singing songs about being kind to one another and it’s really important and for some reason, people lose their way. And we need to get back to that. We need to get back to that core, but we’re always looking for the challenges as opportunities and we want our students to be happy when they leave us. And we want our our children to be successful. You know, what I want for the children here that we serve is the same I want for my own kids. Jessica Webster: That’s right. Chris Wolfel: And you know, so I’m inspired to help lead that change that builds that knowledge and the skills to both our families, our educators that we can really make a meaningful difference. And really, you know, I was talking to a teacher, a student teacher last night and you know, we were just talking about inclusion and they talked about, you know, how inclusion has grown over the years and you know, he talked about equality and I said, “You know, we have equality, but we need to strive not even for equity anymore, we need to strive for justice.” And when we could strive for that, then that’s that perfect moment, but that’s gonna take time. But we should be raising our expectations and pushing for the top at all times. Jessica Webster: At all times. Yeah, yeah, I love that. All right, so I could stay here all day, but I know everyone has things to get back to. So as we wrap up, we have a final question that we’d like to kind of close out with to get your perspectives on. And Nikki, we’ll start with you, from your perspective, if a school is listening and they want to adapt their current practices to really engage and empower families as true partners at the table, where’s a good place to start with that? What’s something people can start to do today that would make a real difference in building out authentic family engagement? Nikki Huggan: So finding families who are willing to put their time in and work with them and have a mindset of working together is the absolute first step. If they can find those families and they’re out there, but some of them are hiding because they feel like, they are, they feel like maybe, they’re in the minority, but actually, they’re in the majority. It’s just that anger sometimes comes to the top in a lot of families. And that’s what we see. Jessica Webster: That’s what we see and hear first, right? Yeah, yeah, what about you, Chris? What would you suggest? Chris Wolfel: For me, it’s start creating opportunities that you can get to schools and families to talk and learn from one another. You know, it could be one-on-one interactions. It could be group meetings, it could be just sharing resources, training events, opportunities to celebrate success, just get people together and start talking. And you know, I think the biggest thing and I have to practice this every day and I think everybody needs to practice this and it’s to be a better listener because active listening is not easy. It takes practice and it takes admitting to yourself when you’re not a good active listener. And as much as I work really, really hard during the day to be a good active listener, Beth will tell you when I get home, I’m a terrible active listener. Nikevia Thomas: Yes, you get it all out at school, there’s no more energy laughing. Chris Wolfel: So I am admitting it. I am admitting it today in this podcast. So Beth listens to- Nikki Huggan: Oh, yeah, but I don’t listen at all. Chris Wolfel: And she will admit it that he’s a terrible listener at home. Jessica Webster: I have it, I have it on recording, I now have it on recording. Oh, so oh my gosh, thank you so much for joining us today. You know, we’ve done some work with Chris, he’s been supporting our work here with Cafe for a long time, and I know Nikki, you and I have met at the conference. You know, one of the things that I was so excited about is to me, this is a really great case study story that really fits in with the research on that desire of families to wanna connect with each other and network and work together. And how when we really bring in that bi-directional conversation and really make it a true partnership, really great things can happen in the service of kids. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. Nikevia, what are you thinking? Nikevia Thomas: Yes, I am thinking about how much effort you all put into making a village. You know, and then even with the benefit of hindsight, you thought, “Well, you know what, we should actually have the children in to help with building this village.” And I think, you know, that is a great image of, you know, building a village to support each other and take care of each other. And I think this is a great model for families and for education professionals. So thank you so much, both of you, for sharing today. Jessica Webster: Thank you for all the hard work and for being willing to share that hard work with the rest of us. Chris Wolfel: Thank you for inviting us. Nikki Huggan: Well, definitely, thank you. Jessica Webster: Yeah, anytime. And to our listeners, thank you for sharing a cup of conversation with us. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. So until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing and don’t forget to follow us on X at Cafe_MAEC.

Nikevia Thomas: Hello, everybody. This is Nikevia… Jessica Webster: …and Jessica… Nikevia Thomas: …from MAEC’s CAFE, and you’re listening to The Corner CAFE Podcast. Families, schools and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So, let’s get started. Jessica Webster: Welcome back, everybody. In today’s episode, we are joined by Rene Averitt-Sanzone. Rene is the Executive Director at The Parents’ Place of Maryland, and has been since 2017. Before that, she worked as the regional technical assistance co-director for the OSEP funded parent centers in the mid-south region. She has worn many hats in the field of special education, as a parent educator, an early childhood behavior specialist, an evaluator, and a charter school administrator. She currently serves on several national and statewide disability committees and advisory groups. Rene has an undergraduate degree in Psychology and a Master’s in Organizational Change Management. Rene is also the proud parent of two grown daughters, both who have disabilities, and she is an even prouder Mimi of two grandsons. So Rene, thank you so much for joining us today. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Oh, thank you for having me. I’m super excited. Nikevia Thomas: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I second what Jessica said, Rene. Let’s just jump right in. Rene, can you tell us, what is The Parents’ Place of Maryland, and can you talk a little bit about the work you all do? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Absolutely. My second favorite thing to talk about besides my grandchildren. So The Parents’ Place of Maryland, the official designation is we are Maryland Special Education and Health Information Center. But what does that actually mean? Is that we serve families who have children with disabilities and special healthcare needs, birth to 26. So anytime a family has a question about anything remotely concerned about their child’s development, any concerns they’re having with school, their health, they’re just not sure, they call us and we answer their questions and we help them to become their child’s best advocate. Because we operate from a place here at The Parents’ Place of Maryland that the parent is the expert on their child, it’s just our job to help them get there and learn all the lingo and the terms and what’s evidence-based practices and what’s research and all things related to special education, early intervention, and healthcare. Jessica Webster: Which is so important because all three of those buckets have such complex terminology, different rules and regulations that follow among them, and the transition between each can be very complicated, I imagine. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Oh, extremely complicated and stressful. Jessica Webster: And stressful. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit, tell us what brought you to do this work. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yeah, so as you read in my introduction, I am a mom. So I always, whenever I am in meetings with professionals, a lot of times there’s lots of initials behind their names, and I always go, I hold a degree in M-O-M, and they stop for a second because they kind of go, “Masters of…” Before they realize. So yeah, that’s what brought me to this work. My daughter, oldest daughter, won’t tell you how old she is, it started when we got a diagnosis at six months, so started then. And then four years later, had her sister, and same disability, so I stayed on this journey for a really, really, really super long time. And then when my youngest daughter made me a Mimi, about the time my oldest grandson was about one and a half, Mimi went, “Mm, think something might be going on here.” And so actually my oldest grandson also has a significant speech language delay so I am now navigating helping to support my daughter as she navigates the system in a different state as well. So gone back to my roots of being a parent educator, which is how I started getting paid to do this work, I should say. Jessica Webster: That’s right. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Jessica Webster: Oh, that’s amazing. Nikevia Thomas: That’s a great story, Rene, of how you got there. And when you were speaking about your grandson and you started to say, “Mm, mm, mm,” it was like an early detection or early intervention. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes. Nikevia Thomas: Can you talk to us about those terms? Can you unpack them for us? So early intervention and family health, and what does that all include? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yeah, absolutely. No, great question. So early intervention is officially defined in the federal special education law, and it’s also defined in Maryland in what we call COMAR. And basically early intervention is a set of services and supports for children that are eligible birth to three. Maryland, we do something a little different, we also do what’s called an Extended Individualized Family Service Plan. But the beauty of early intervention for our littles, birth to three, is it’s really the only time in the special education process that it is all about the child and the family. And it is lovely, it’s absolutely lovely. When I left early intervention both times I cried, because all of a sudden I was going to be shifting away from the family focus to just the individual child focus with those pieces. And so it’s just really done in a way that’s just natural environments and nice and just warm and cozy, which is a beautiful way to start to learn the process for families. So that’s a little bit about early intervention. Family health, for us, how we do family health, or family health information, is the same struggles and challenges that families have understanding special education, including early intervention, are the same challenges families have when they have a child with a special healthcare need. Understanding, “Okay, wait a minute, I need a piece of equipment, but insurance has denied me,” or “I have medical assistance, and what does that mean? And how do I apply if I have a child who’s really complex? Or what if I have a little itty-bitty that was born premature and they’re in the PICU or the NICU?” So we really help families as they journey through all of that from early, all the way through transitioning into adulthood. Jessica Webster: Wow. And talk to us a little bit, so you had mentioned like with your grandson, that sense that, “Oh, there’s something else here that we need some support on.” How do families, if they have that feeling, or they’re seeing some developmental markers, how do you get into earlier intervention or that family health support? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Well, every state has a slightly different entry process. In Maryland, we’re really fortunate because Maryland has an online referral system, which makes it great – Nikevia Thomas: Nice. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: – because families can simply refer themselves into, and this is a shameless plug, but if families aren’t sure how to do it, they can go to our YouTube channel on our website, and we actually have a little tutorial that walks families through how to do it themselves. Families, a lot of times, will also talk to their doctor or their pediatrician is one way. But the other way, which is our preference, is that our wish is always that families find us first. So when they find us first, we can immediately start getting in there and validating a family’s concern. And when we talk about family, we talk about family in the broad sense, so it’s mom, dad, grandma, aunt, uncle, two moms, two dads, older siblings, kinship formed, adoptive, foster. Any way you could think to define family is what family means to us. But really what a family and a parent wants is to be heard and validated. Jessica Webster: Absolutely. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: And I’ve yet, in my 30 plus years of doing this work, a, we always call it a mama gut, but that parent gut is very rarely, if ever, wrong. So that’s why we always like them to get to us first so we can really go, “Okay, you are right, what you’re feeling. Now, this is what you can do.” And really helping families walk through the whole process with that. And there is one of us in every single state, so we’re all charged to do the exact same work and to serve the same age group, so we’re all charged to do the exact same work. Nikevia Thomas: That’s wonderful. We know that entering special education services and programming can be very intimidating to families, so what would you recommend schools do to support families new to the process? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: My first answer always is have the schools send them to us, because we are a private nonprofit that is outside of the school system. And so our role as a parent center is that we really don’t tell families what to do, because we’re not walking a mile in their shoes. So even though I’m a parent, I’m a Mimi, everyone on my team is a parent as well, or has a close family member, so we all have this lived experience. But that doesn’t mean we’re walking a mile in that family’s shoes, exactly in their shoes. So we know what it means to be in the IEP meeting and to first start out, but our children all may be different, different looks, different languages, different everything. So when families come to us, what they’re going to get is really family-friendly, factual information that is unbiased. It’s based on evidence, it’s based on research, it’s based on policies and procedures. So we’re really giving families the information and the tools to say, okay, now this is your decision to make, and here are your choices and options to make it. And we also have the time to go, okay, what does IEP stand for and what does it actually mean? And what do the different components of an IEP mean? And what does an evaluation mean? And what does a WISC mean? And what does the Wechsler Scale of Intelligence mean? And so we have the time to really go through all of that with them that a lot of times our school folks just don’t have time to do. They want to, they wish they did, and so that’s the piece that we can help break that down because if we can get in there earlier, then what we’re doing is to help to build that bridge of communication, partnership and collaboration, because that’s really what is the most important thing to us at The Parents’ Place of Maryland, is how your kiddo is going to be in that school for a really long time, so let’s build those relationships. But making sure that you’re an informed, effective, and empowered parent as well. Jessica Webster: I think it’s interesting because I used to be a special education teacher and a principal, and it was interesting to me, you have families who have a great experience with the school and they go through the process, but the minute there is a moment of tension, if you don’t have that foundation of actually understanding, they don’t necessarily know the process because they’ve just trusted it along the way. And it wasn’t that somebody did something bad, it was just that they had a misunderstanding or didn’t quite understand that because I’ve requested these things and I’ve gotten them all the time, then all of a sudden there’s a time where the school’s like, “Oh, wait, we don’t want to do it that way,” or, “We use this curriculum instead,” not understanding where your rights and responsibilities are because it’s just always worked. So it’s not even that it has to be a place of there’s an issue. But if you understand from the beginning, these are the processes and the procedures that I’m empowered as I go through to understand. And if there is a time that there’s a disagreement, because there probably will be, at some point along the way. Or in that transition between developmental stages, how it looks in one level might look different at a different level. So thinking about that and thinking about, to your point of you come into this system, there’s all kinds of acronyms, then the acronyms change again, from early intervention into regular K through 12, or 12 plus schooling. I feel like it’s just the whole process can feel so intimidating. How do you recommend, or what’s a great way even, to get parents to understand their rights and responsibilities and be prepped for what those meetings are going to look like? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Right, exactly. So for us, it’s working with us. So all of our families who work with us come back and go, when they work with us, “Oh, that’s what that means,” because what we do with families, is we help them to prep for an IEP meeting, or wait a minute, what does the data say? So we help families to understand that these decisions really need to be data-driven decisions. Is your child making progress? If your child’s not making progress, why is your child not making progress? What does that look like? What can we do? What have we tried? What can we try? But also like, okay, so sometimes a family may say, “Well, I really want X,” and what they’re going to get from our organization is, you are absolutely entitled to ask for X, but we’re going to tell you, “This is what the law says. We’re not interpreting the law. This is what the law says. Think about this,” or, “Have you thought about this instead of that?” So really trying to help and coach the families with that. But one of the other pieces that we really work with families around, that I think is a very powerful tool, is one, documenting. And it’s not documenting to do a, “Ooh, gotcha,” it’s documenting like, okay, one of our favorite phrases is when a family finishes with a meeting is sending an email, which is really nice because back in my day, we actually had to write things the old school way, is, “Thank you so much for meeting with me today, this was my understanding of the meeting.” Putting that back down in writing, “But if I’ve misunderstood anything, please let me know.” Or, “This was my understanding. We agreed to this, so forth and so on. But if I’ve misunderstood, please let me know.” And all of it, that really just keeps those lines of communication open. And the other piece of it is we’re all just human beings, so the more we teach families how to document, how to ask for data, how to collect data, but also just how to communicate with your families and record keeping. You just got a report back from your doctor. Okay, well wait a minute, let’s share that with the IEP team so that they have all of the information, because we all really do… Sometimes families don’t feel like IEP teams or have, your child is at the forefront. They really do, it’s just that we have to make sure that we’re just really keeping those lines of communication open all the way around. And one of the other pieces we do besides teaching families how to document, record keep, is also asking questions in a way that get at understanding learning and discovery. “Help me understand. I’m not following. Can you help me understand?” Or, “I’m really having a hard time understanding. Can I please see where that’s in writing so I can read through it?” Some people are readers. But there’s also sometimes incidences that, “Well, we’ve always done it this way,” and so sometimes when we look at something in writing, we go, “Oh, we don’t have to do it this way.” Actually, it’s not there. We actually do have the flexibility, the creativity, and the individuality to do some very creative things for the student. Jessica Webster: Yeah, because there’s a layer between, I think as you’re talking, I keep thinking about there’s the layer between the individualized piece that is there for students, then there by their rights and responsibilities, in a program. So there’s that tension, natural tension, and then you add onto that, I think, the onus or the stress or the tension around the paperwork, that I used to get frustrated because the paperwork is actually getting in the way of the conversation instead of being a great way to facilitate the conversation. Because we get so worried about compliance, for very important reasons, I’m not saying, those things are important too, but keeping that in order for it all to function, the relationship and the student have to be at the center of that. Not, “Oh my gosh, we have to get it in by then.” You got to do it by those dates too, I’m not saying that, but the burden then doesn’t become, “Did I cross all the T’s and dot all the I’s?” It becomes, “Are we doing what’s best for the student?” Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Exactly. And that’s what we try to explain to families is that families get overwhelmed by the paperwork too, and the lingo and all of those pieces. Jessica Webster: So much. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: But unfortunately, it is a law with a lot of legalities. And it’s like I always like to say to families, the law says a free and appropriate public education, nobody quibbles over free, the definition of free, nobody quibbles over the word public, and nobody quibbles over the word education. Jessica Webster: Appropriate. What’s appropriate? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: But everybody quibbles over the word of appropriate. Jessica Webster: That’s it. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: And there’s just lots of gray in there. And can I tell you that every single IEP that both of my daughters had and my grandson has was done a hundred percent? No. But at the end of the day, because we had that great relationship, and I’m not saying we didn’t have bumps too, I don’t want to paint some rosy picture, but it really is about, “Okay, wait a minute, let’s stop back up. Okay, all right. Okay, so how can we support the IEP team with the paperwork and the compliance, but at the same time making sure that the needs of your child are getting met, or your young adult is getting met?” Absolutely. Jessica Webster: And so I see the healthy way to do that is with those questioning techniques. If we can teach families how to do that in a way. And professionals, for that matter. How to do that in a way, what a powerful shift that then becomes into – Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Absolutely. Jessica Webster: – we’re doing this for clarification, for the end goal still staying on the child, and the [inaudible 00:20:51] child. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I love it. I like it as it is, we’re doing this together, not apart. Nikevia Thomas: Lovely family engagement. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes. Nikevia Thomas: Yes, yes, yes. So speaking of that, how does family engagement affect children with disabilities in school? And what have you found families of children with disabilities are looking for in terms of engagement from their schools? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: So I think the most heartbreaking piece of having a child with a disability is that a lot of times, as a family, you become incredibly isolated in the school community. “Oh, those kids go to that classroom,” instead of looking at it is that it’s an inclusive community, because families who have children with disabilities and special healthcare needs, we want to be part of the community. As parents, we want to see children that don’t look like us, so our kids are getting this really world view of the world and all walks of life. And then the reality is, I can’t remember who said this, somebody way smarter than myself, it’s not if you have a disability, it’s when you have a disability. Jessica Webster: When. That’s right. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes. A major life event can happen, not that we ever want it, but a child could end up in a car accident and have a traumatic brain injury. There could be something, surgery, something happens, or even as an adult. You have loved ones, they have a stroke, a car accident. So disability is just, it’s natural, it’s part of that piece. And we all want to be part of it, but there ends up being just this real isolation and so we’re really not engaged in these pieces. So what people will see is family fun nights or PTA or PTO. There really isn’t this thought about including our children and including our families. Parent-teacher conference, right? All of a sudden there becomes all of these segregations all the way around, and then when you don’t feel that you belong, how do you form relationships? And then when you don’t feel that you belong, then you feel lonely. When you feel lonely, do you really want to have a partnership with the school? And that’s the piece that is just so, so, so, so incredibly hard about all of it. Jessica Webster: And I’ve heard some of my friends talk a little bit about as their children age too, how it’s so much easier in many ways to include students in your classroom and your social networks in elementary school. But then as kids pair off and some of those developmental levels change and it becomes less of organic peer relationships that they have as well, so you’re dealing with your own potential loneliness and disconnection and potentially watching your child also see that disconnect and loneliness as well. And I’ve had some friends that have really struggled with that experience as well as their children get up, and so thinking about that from a school piece, do you have some suggestions for how schools can think about it more in a universally designed way or encourage that? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes, the short answer is always yes. The longer answer is that, and again, I am a huge proponent of advocating for teachers, because I firmly believe that we are sadly not supporting our teachers in the classroom as well as we could for lots of reasons. And so one of the things that I see from a universal perspective is does the building leadership really set a tone and a culture in that school building that all means all? Jessica Webster: All means all. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: And so many times people are like, “All children,” and then you look at the fine print and you go, “Oh, really? So how are we going to get Johnny to the swim meet when he’s got to come through the cafeteria?” And I’m not saying, building is obviously one piece, and I do understand the constraints of building construction and all that stuff, but there is so much of, are we really creating a culture that all means all? And that has to go from the leadership all the way down. And then from there, are we really giving our teachers the time to intentionally look for those opportunities of how do we create our classrooms that are inclusive? To your point, Jessica, it doesn’t have to get harder the older our kids get, but it can feel harder. So what does the schedule look like? Are we giving teachers time to plan together? Are we really working with families to hear what families want and need and want to act? Someone that I admire and respect immensely, her work is just absolutely pivotal in the field of early intervention, but it’s also the issue of reciprocity, is are we valuing what we’re letting families give us? So there has to also be that mutual piece of and authentically listening to families as part of creating that culture, and what does that look like? And authentic family engagement, it means engaging families of all colors and all languages, and that that all looks really different, but we also just need to give folks the time to do it, and that butts up against master schedules and bus times and – Jessica Webster: But it also has to be outside of just the IEP, right? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes. Jessica Webster: Because what you want for your individual child, but then also, again, going back to but then there’s still the larger program, and there’s still the larger message, and there’s still PTA meetings and PTO meetings and things that we have when we talk about bringing in speakers that parents are learning about, or math curriculum and how are we designing those in ways that they’re accessible for all families, and all families feel like they’re talking to me. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes. Right, exactly. Jessica Webster: Because this is for me too, my child might have a disability, but I also need to know this information. Or how you do a math night and you think, okay, but how am I doing this with my kid, potentially? And so designing it from the ground up, thinking about how do we make it accessible for everybody and make it clear that we expect it really does mean all? I think that’s super important. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: It is. And so when I talk about that culture, everything I just shared had nothing to do with the IEP meeting. Jessica Webster: That’s right. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: And I think one of the other barriers to family engagement, again, very well intended, I always do say this, I am married to a teacher, so I am always quick to quantify this statement, but also one of the real big issues is also around is, well, we did a family math night and families didn’t show up, so therefore they just don’t want to be engaged. Well, could we reframe the question and go, okay, what about the family? Talk to the families. What about that family math night didn’t work for you? It’s not an attack, it is simply collecting data and reframing the question of how can we learn and do better? Jessica Webster: You take the data point, but then you keep unpacking the data point. You don’t stop with the data point to say, “I’m going to make assumptions based on what that data point is,” and maybe it isn’t what you needed. Maybe what you need is something different from a family night. I would like to see a family night on this, this is something I would be able to change my schedule around, or I really would’ve tuned in if it was online, or if I could have a recording of it, I’ll watch it on my free. I’ll watch it, it’s like what you said about the YouTube video with the tutorial, how are we making it accessible for people in different ways? Which does take more time and creativity, but that’s the society we are in. There’s a lot of barriers that we need to overcome. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Well, and then to continue to play out your point there, Jessica, beautifully, is, and when you have that conversation with that family and they say, “Oh, this is what,” and then the school, “Oh, okay, we can do that.” And then the parent says, “You know what?” They wouldn’t say it this way, but, “Because you’re hearing me, I will help you organize it.” The families that are in my group, I will make sure that they understand and they hear, and I’ll help get them there, how whatever that looks like. Jessica Webster: Because you start building those cultural bridges between groups to say, “Oh, that wasn’t my experience. My experience with the school has been this, and this person has been really helpful and they’ve always listened. We may not end up agreeing in the end, but I’ve always felt listened to and heard and valued for my opinion and what I have to say,” rather than excuses. Yeah, that’s a good point. Nikevia Thomas: Really goes back to relationships. Jessica Webster: Relationships. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes, yes, yes. Nikevia Thomas: Yes. Keep them brewing. So Rene, what do you say are some best practices for supporting families in special education during transitional periods through effective programming? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: It really is the simple as one, we always meet families where they are. Different families are at different places in their journey and in this process, and a lot of listening. Just because transition is hard, transition is scary, so meeting them where they’re at, listening, validating that their fears, their concerns, everything they are feeling is 100% normal. Empathy. Again, just because I may not have a child with the exact same disability, when I transitioned from early intervention to preschool, it was scary and new lingo. And then preschool to kindergarten, new lingo. Elementary to middle, new lingo. Middle to high school, new lingo, new everything, new players, new everything. And so when we build that trust and when we build that relationship, that’s how we then begin to give families the information they need at that particular point in time. So we have some families that are like, “Open up the fire hose, give it to me all,” and then we have some families that are like, “Can I just have a one-pager – ” Jessica Webster: Bite-sized. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: ” – with an acronym alphabet on it?” Okay, great. Or we have some families like, “Okay, have you sent an email?” “Oh, shoot. No.” “Okay, great.” So that family sends the email. But I have another family, you talk about sending an email and they’re like, “Well, I’m not sure. I’m not how to write that email.” And so you may say, “Okay, well, what are your main points?” So then you start to help them craft it. Then we have some families where English is not their first language, or maybe literacy is an issue, so we may say, “Well, I’ll tell you what, why don’t you draft an email?” Because we’re all about families doing it themselves. Because we don’t do it for them. By the pure definition of an advocate, an advocate speaks for someone. We are not speaking for that parent. That doesn’t help the situation because they can’t take us home with them. And sometimes we may say, “Well, how about if you draft an email, send it to us, and we’ll help you work through that email.” And then there might be some times that sometimes we actually have to actually draft the first email. They use it as a template. And one of the other things we do for our families, because it’s hard to write some of these letters, so again, another shameless plug, on our website, we have lots of sample letters that families can just grab, put in, we’ll say, “Okay, let’s help you find the name of the person this needs to be addressed to, your child’s name, the date,” and the letters all ready. There’s a template form so that we can make it easy for them to be able to do that as well. And then the other piece we do at Parents’ Place, we’re really super fortunate, is that we can provide the services in Spanish, which is a whole ‘nother issue of family engagement. We also do Haitian Creole. And then any other language somebody needs, then we’re always accessing the language line, because we do have some families that’ll speak another language, English is not their first language, and they’re like, “Oh, no, I’m good.” So because we’ll say, they’ll tell us their language and we’re like, “Okay, would you like us to get an interpreter?” “No, I’ve got it. I’ve got it.” Well, when you start talking about American education terms – Jessica Webster: Yes. The interpreter would be helpful. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: – then all of a sudden… We’re always very culturally competent to say, “Okay, at any time, it would be easier for this to be in your own language and for us to have these conversations, please just let us know.” But again, we have the time to whatever it is. But that’s how we try to support families through these transitions. And again, we let families set that pace, with that piece with that, but also recognizing some families just get to a place that, you know what? Right now I can’t do anything, and we honor that too. And we’re not going anywhere. We’re here when you need us. Jessica Webster: That’s a great tip though, I’m thinking, because when you think about speaking another language, there’s the informal everyday transactional language that you might be very well versed in. But then when you shift to the more academic language, that then could be a barrier and that’s a good tip for schools, I think, to think about too. If a parent seems, oh, well, they seem very confident in their English, but then when it shifts to these more complex academic-y kind of things, it might be much harder for them. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: And legal as well. Because there’s a reason that the special education law is not translated into any other language. It’s just in English. Jessica Webster: And I think I was talking to someone, we were talking about this, and they were saying even the translation also helps with the cultural shift in the language so that a direct translation, if the words don’t translate directly, then there’s also the cultural, the awareness around words, like how another culture takes a word, especially around the mental health services. And disability and mental health can be huge stigmas for you depending on what culture you’re coming from, which can also impede your trust, willingness to get support, all of those things in a different way. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yeah. One of my team members who is bicultural, bilingual, she uses this example, and it’s just because I don’t unfortunately speak another language, I wish I did, is in English, when we talk about transition, particularly transition, for us, English, for us, transition means a change, at the pure it’s simple. So transition and then transition through special education, or transition in health, from pediatric to adult. So it’s always a change to something, right? Well, in Spanish, it just means left to right. I mean I’m oversimplifying. Jessica Webster: Interesting. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: So when an IEP team says to a family, “Oh, do you want help with transition?” The family’s like, “No, I don’t want to help from moving from left to right,” which is another thing that’s really important to family engagement, again, we have the time to explain. To your point, Jessica, transition, yes, it means from left to right, but it also means in this context a change to a different system, a change to a different program, a change to something else. And really what does all of that mean? And I think there’s one of those, what is it? In English, love has one definition, but in other languages it has multiple, depending on the language. And again, I’m oversimplifying the beauty of other languages, but I think you all get my point. So with folks that are listening to this and speak other language, please give me a little bit of grace. Nikevia Thomas: Of course. Jessica Webster: It is fascinating though. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yeah, very. Nikevia Thomas: So does Parents’ Place foster partnership with community organizations in healthcare to support families? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Oh my gosh, yes. We couldn’t do this work without partners. We absolutely positively could not do this. So one of our biggest partners, we’d be lost, is the Maryland Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics. That’s one of our biggest partners in this healthcare field. So we partner with community partners, we partner with state agencies, we partner with other grassroots groups. This work can’t be done without partnerships and collaborations, absolutely cannot be. Yeah, we’d be lost if we didn’t have that. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah. I would think that that would be very true. Jessica Webster: You guys also do a ton of training. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes. Jessica Webster: So talk to us about what topics and trainings you have found to be most beneficial for families in the work that you’ve done and how you know that to be true. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: So the most ‘popular,’ I’m using air quotes, this is so funny to use air quotes on a podcast. Sorry. For those of you that are listening, Jessica and Nikevia will tell you, I’m moving my hands around like you all can see me. So for us, the most popular training we have is IEP basics, so Individualized Education Program basics, how to prepare for an IEP team meeting. So those pieces around that. And then the other piece that is also very popular is behavior, because we have kids with lots of social emotional issues and behaviors and challenges that are just significant and ongoing and unfortunately only got worse through COVID and after COVID. Those are our most popular. And how we know it is, one, training, number of training requests, attendance at our training events, and then also we evaluate everything that we do. So every training that we do, we do an evaluation, and we’re always measuring our quality, our relevance, our usefulness. We also are measuring an increase in knowledge before and after. So we evaluate everything and are always looking at our data. We also do the same thing with all of our one-on-one assistance. So we survey every single parent, family that works with us, professional that works with us as well, and we’re always serving that assistance as well. But those are probably our three most popular ones. Jessica Webster: Okay. And do you have resources in terms of if a school district wanted to share out resources, resources like on your web page that they could avail themselves of or refer parents to? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Free. Help themselves, help themselves. So we really look at our work in a universal targeted and intensive way. So for us, our website is that universal approach. So you’re welcome to anything on our website, help yourself, download it to your heart’s content, share the links to your heart’s content. Same thing with our YouTube. Our social media is the same way. Our newsletter, we have a monthly newsletter, just sign up for it. We also do a month… I was told we just moved to monthly, so we have a monthly newsletter in Spanish as well. We have a Spanish Facebook page. We have an English Instagram, Spanish Instagram. So we really are… And some of our YouTube videos are also in Spanish, so we’re really don’t have as many as I’d like, but we’re getting there slowly but surely. So our stuff is free to professionals, to their heart’s content. And usually what professionals tell us that they like about our stuff is, one, it’s usually easier to find stuff on our website than it is say, a state website. And also they like our stuff because we operate from a place, if it’s written in a way a family can understand it, it’s awesome for a teacher, because a teacher doesn’t need a 24-page document. We take it and we’ll create a two-pager, because we try to write everything around fifth, sixth grade level. It just makes it easier for a teacher to grab it and go and to read and to be able to digest it than weeding through something that’s 24 pages that’s written at a post-doctoral level. So we also try to approach it that way as well for teachers. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Rene, you do a lot of work. You do a lot. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Oh, but I love it. I love it. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah. You do a lot. We work with each other, so I thought, oh, I just realized now, that was just the tip of the iceberg. Jessica Webster: Yeah, right. That’s right. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah. So what is your biggest challenge that you experience in your role? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Well, the slightly smart aleck answer, but it’s the truth, is funding. Funding. Yeah, funding. Our services are free to families. We have no wait list. We take everybody. No questions asked. No eligibility requirement. A lot of times folks struggle with that, like, “Oh, do you have an eligible?” No, you just got to call us. Do you collect income? Nope. Do you have immigration status? Nope, nope, nope. We don’t. Just call us. And so the demand is just a lot, and because of limited funding, we’re not able… I always say we have to be the best kept secret. Parents’ Place of Maryland has been around since 1990, so we’ve been serving families in the state for over 30 years. But there isn’t a day that goes by that a family doesn’t say to one of my parent educators who has a 14 or 15-year-old, “How come I didn’t know about you sooner?” We do the best we can do with what we have, but… So that part is a challenge as well. And I think the other challenge that just always hurts my heart is that we aren’t getting in there earlier and sooner, that we can help to change the trajectory of relationships that go south really fast. And that’s the piece that hurts my heart. I was fortunate that when we got the diagnosis when my daughter was six months old, well, where do I go? And somebody gave me this number, and I always tell the story, I ended up calling this place. I had no idea what this place was, I was in a different state, and it was a parent educator and the parent educator was just, “Ask why. Ask for it in writing. Help me understand.” So really started me on this journey of how to ask questions. Fast-forward several years, I ended up working for her and all of those fun things. But I look back at how my journey started because I got somebody immediately and relationships didn’t go south. We had tension. We agreed to disagree. Jessica Webster: That’s right. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: But it didn’t go south. And I always attributed my daughter’s amazing success, not because of me as a mom, trust me, but because I had that person in my life. And that’s what hurts my heart, is I want to give that to every – Jessica Webster: Everybody. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: – family that wants or needs that, and we’re just not in a position to do that. Jessica Webster: It’s like early intervention. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yeah. Not unless you guys have figured out the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Jessica Webster: That’s right. Well, you’ll be the first to know. Rene, that just makes me think though, we talk about how early intervention, we know the research, how impactful it is for kids, but early intervention, proactive early intervention and relationship building for families, with families, not for, with, how that’s, what you just spoke to so eloquently, is really, that’s it. That should be the goal here. And the sooner you get in and the sooner we lay a strong foundation, then your foundation can absorb the tensions and the shifts and the many earthquakes that may occur as children develop and grow and change and all of that. Because gosh, parenting is rough. It’s not for the weak of heart here. Come on. I have a preteen and a teenager. Good god. It’s a lot. Nikevia Thomas: Yes. It is, it is. Jessica Webster: For all of us, I would say it’s like layers of an onion. Sometimes it just becomes, the complexity is there for all of us, but there are just then some extra additional layers, I would say to my parents. You have an extra layer that we just also have to take care of and name and work through together. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yeah. Absolutely. Jessica Webster: It’s not like all those other things aren’t there for you too that make it difficult to parent through life. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Exactly, exactly. Jessica Webster: All right, so we have one final question for you. As we wrap up here, we want to know from your perspective, if you were to give schools any advice on how to adapt their current practices, I think we think about, oh, a big change and it’s scary and overwhelming, but if schools could do one thing, or two things, to really adapt what they’re currently doing, to be better at engaging families and empowering families as true partners at the table, where would you recommend they begin? Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Oh my goodness gracious. That’s a big question. I would think if leadership in a school building could really look at the gift of time. The gift of time to hear what teachers are struggling with around family engagement in their classrooms, and then the gift of time to hear what families are struggling with in a way that… Obviously it would have to be somebody that was trusted by families, but I really think we’ve lost the ability of the gift of time. We really have. And I think that when you allow someone, again, way smarter than I am, is when you give people time, that gives them time to process, time to breathe, time to reflect, and I think just also time to maybe sit in some quiet and some silence. And I know that people probably listening to this goes, “Yeah, all right, Rene.” Our teachers are just slammed. Our kids are just slammed. Our families are just slammed. Time to hear our kids. I think that would probably be the one piece that I’d like to think that schools could do that maybe wouldn’t cost a lot of money because I do know schools are definitely, I respect that they are struggling, have budget challenges and things like that. But boy, that takes a lot of courage and a lot of time. Not to beat the word to death, but yeah. Jessica Webster: I think you’re right on that. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. It’s always such a joy. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Well, thank you for having me. Yeah. You all are always two of my most favorite people to work with. Jessica Webster: Oh, wow. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: So I love it. I love it. Jessica Webster: It’s mutual, it’s mutual. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: Yes, I love it. Nikevia Thomas: Yes, it is. Rene Averitt-Sanzone: I love it. So you are so welcome. Thank you. Jessica Webster: Thank you. And to our listeners, thank you for sharing a cup of conversation with us. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. So until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing, and don’t forget to follow us on X @CAFE_MAEC.

Nikevia Thomas: Hello, everybody. This is Nikevia. Jessica Webster: And Jessica. Nikevia Thomas: From MAEC’s CAFE and you’re listening to a Corner CAFE Podcast. Families, schools, and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So let’s get started. Jessica Webster: In today’s episode, we’re joined by guests from the Parents as Teachers program, which is also known as PAT. Their evidence-based home visiting model provides comprehensive and varied services to families with children, prenatal through kindergarten, and it also offers us deep insights into early childhood development. Since 1984, the PAT model has been rigorously tested by peer-reviewed studies and is shown to produce outstanding results for families. PAT has affiliates throughout the United States and actually the world. We are so excited to learn more about how their programs help support families to become educational leaders for their children. Nikevia Thomas: Yes. And before we dive in, let’s get to know our guests. First, we have Melissa Hassler, a Parent Educator for PAT at Community Prevention Partnerships in Berks County, Pennsylvania. Previously, she was a Head Start teacher for 21 years. Melissa learned about PAT when she participated in a program with her now three-year-old son. Currently deeply involved with children and youth services, families and substance abuse clients, Melissa finds it gratifying to see these families overcome adversities and choose to be there for their children. Jessica Webster: Up next, we have Anabel Oceguera, Manager of Family Center programs at the Maternal and Child Health Consortium. Born in Mexico and later migrating to the United States, she holds a degree in social work from West Chester University of Pennsylvania. Anabel’s life experiences enable her to better understand the large immigrant community in Chester County and help them overcome barriers to success, something she is truly passionate about. Nikevia Thomas: And joining us also is Lauren Waite, a Parent Educator for the PAT program at Beginnings, Inc. in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. Lauren’s journey with PAT started as a program participant for four and a half years with her now seven-year-old son. She credits the program with transforming her life, connecting her with valuable parenting resources, and turning her into not just a parent, but a family leader. Jessica Webster: And rounding out our large group today of guests, last but certainly not least, we have Karen Shanoski and she is the Family Support and Community Engagement Director at the Center for Schools and Communities, and also serves as Pennsylvania’s PAT State Office Director. Karen’s extensive background includes leadership roles in family support programs. She previously served on PAT’s national board, strengths-based family engagement practices, and community partnerships. She and her husband are also proud parents of two creative adult sons. Oh my goodness. We’re so excited to have you all here with us, so thank you so much for joining us. Nikevia Thomas: Yes, thank you. Thank you. So let’s get started with you, Karen. Now, I have the pleasure of having worked with you on many, many things, but can you tell our audience more about the components that make up evidence-based home visiting model? Karen Shanoski: Sure, I’d be really thrilled to. Parents as Teachers, we call it an evidence-based home visiting and we do visit people in their homes. But truly, the home visit is only one component of the model. It’s made up of four components and my three co-participants can correct me whenever I make a misstep. But the home visit, the personal visit is really critically important. It’s that unique one-on-one time. Parents as Teachers works in large part because of the relationship-building that is done among the Parent Educators and the families. And each personal visit includes a parent-child interaction, a conversation about parenting, developmental strategies with their children and with themselves as they’re growing as parents, and then a family well-being portion. Connected to the family well-being, another component of the model is having a resource network. Each affiliate is encouraged to have a strong resource network and all of the staff are building relationships with the organizations in their communities so that as they’re working with families and identifying strengths and needs that they have, they can be connecting them perhaps as a volunteer with an organization or perhaps as someone who can help out in a situation where the family has a gap in some resources. Another important component is some of the screenings that are done. So we want to make sure that families have health services and children are screened using developmental screening tools. A lot of our programs use Ages and Stages: 3, and Ages and Stages: Social-Emotional. In addition, the families take part in a family-centered assessment, a strength-based assessment that is usually observational and then used in a conversation with the parents to talk about goals. So what do you want to accomplish here? Sometimes it’s, “I want to sleep through the night. Please help me sleep through the night.” Sometimes it’s, “I want to go to college.” It can be all kinds of things and we try to use a SMART goals perspective in working with families. And then we have group connections and we find that group connections are so very important as social connections with families. Being able to watch other parents parent can be really, really helpful. And both parents and children can come together in group connections. Sometimes it’s a parent-only situation and it depends on the topics. When Parents as Teachers programs are putting together the programs, it’s either something with a parent-child interaction, something about developmental parenting, or something about family well-being. So I think that’s pretty much the four components. What do you think? Women, did I do okay with the four? Okay. Great. Nikevia Thomas: Very robust. Thank you, Karen. Jessica Webster: So it’s a very all-encompassing program. It’s really wrapping around multiple supports and programming options around families, which is really dynamic. So let’s turn to our Parent Educators. How about Lauren: why don’t we start with you? Can you tell us a little bit about your experience both as a parent through the program and then the work that you’re doing now for PAT? Lauren Waite: I’d love to. It’s one of my favorite subjects. We were new to my town when I learned about Parents as Teachers and I was excited that it was a home visiting program because I did not know my way around. So that took some of the pressure off that they would come right to me. I was a sociology major but with an education background also, so I loved that they talked about child development and specific to the age and stage we were in – potty training was one of my nightmares. And so I really appreciated later in my journey having that support and that everything I was coming up against as a parent, there was something in the curriculum to suit that and to fit that need. I had been parenting kind of in isolation. I mean, I had the support of my family, but I didn’t know my community, and my Parent Educator encouraged me to join a mom’s group and to come to our play group program at Beginnings and we made friends that I’m still friends with now years later. And I went from kind of doing it on my own in my own little corner of my living room to really being a part of my community. They helped me find a dentist and they introduced me to the programs in the library and just really enriched our lives overall. Jessica Webster: Yeah, parenting can be very isolating even if you’re in an established community, right? Because so much of it happens inside of your house and is based on your experiences and what you know or your own experiences or family and culture. So I think that’s very true. That resonates a lot with me about that isolation piece, especially I can imagine as being a new person in the community. Melissa, what about you? Melissa Hassler: I learned about Parents as Teachers because my son was initially enrolled in the Nurse-Family Partnership program. Well, I was enrolled in it when I was pregnant with him. Daniel was actually a COVID baby, a right-at-the-beginning-of-COVID baby. So it was wonderful to have the Nurse-Family Partnership in our lives at that time because it was the only person that we could communicate with that was allowed to come to our house. So that helped. He was a preemie too. So after he spent some time in the NICU, when he came home, it was great to have someone who could help us because we were isolated, very isolated at the time. And then our nurse actually left to find another job and instead of replacing her, we were offered a spot in the Parents as Teachers program. So we got a Parent Educator who started coming to visit us at our house as well. She is no longer with our program though, but was a wonderful person, introduced us to our group connections that we do. I was never able to attend those because I was working full-time at another job at the time. But we still got all the things that were offered at those group connections even if we couldn’t attend. If they did projects there, she would bring the projects the next time she come to visit our house so that Daniel could still do those things that the other children were doing. It was a wonderful experience. And after being in that program for about eight months, my Parent Educator said, “Hey, by the way, we have an open position in our program. I really think you would be awesome at the job. You should apply.” And I was like, “I don’t know.” I was at my other job for almost 21 years at that point and I’m like, “I don’t know.” But I was kind of looking because COVID really did me in as a classroom teacher. It was just very different when we went back in the classroom, things just weren’t the same. So I took a leap of faith. I applied for the position. I got the position. It actually took five months to be hired because the hiring process where I work is very long. But yeah, and now I’ve been here for almost 18 months. I love this job. It has helped with Daniel being… I can work my schedule around his schedule when he’s in preschool now. He has some health issues. So when he has doctor’s appointments, I can rearrange my schedule. So the flexibility is wonderful, but then I also get to use that same flexibility with my families. And it’s like a whole program even with my whole family, with my families that I serve now, it’s being one basically because they’re dealing with the same kind of stuff that we’re dealing with in a lot of cases. And then I don’t know how our families are given to us or if it’s just the luck of the draw, but I have a lot of children and youth service clients right now, which is something I worked within in my previous job as a classroom teacher. I worked for very underserved, underprivileged children. So we had lots of children who were going through the system at the time. So I could bring that expertise to this now thing. I also work with substance abuse clients, which is something brand new to me though. So I kind of have to reach out to the community resources Karen was talking about to get the help that they need. And we have a wonderful relationship with our hospital local to us. They have a program called Soft Landings and it’s for substance abuse clients and we work very, very well with them. So it’s been lovely to find out about resources in our community that I never knew existed. Jessica Webster: That’s amazing. What a great story. Thank you for sharing that with us. Melissa Hassler: You’re welcome. Jessica Webster: Anabel, how would you add? How has your experience been or what do you enjoy most about your role with Parents as Teachers? Anabel Oceguera: Well, here at Maternal and Child Health Consortium, we first got… Around 2014, I was working with our Healthy Start program that serves mostly pregnant high-risk mothers and their babies up to 18 months. So the agency was looking for a curriculum that was evidence-based and our family center was already using this curriculum. So the director at that time was like, “Well, why not give it a chance? We have it already in our agency and it’s doing great things.” So they brought it into our Healthy Start team. And I remember that it was great. It was everything we needed. It had all the components we needed. And in the community, families already knew what Parents as Teachers was from our other program. So it was a great match. And then back in 2019, I got the opportunity to change a little bit and I became part of our Family Center program and I came in as a Parent Educator. And even though I was using the same curriculum as our Healthy Start, it definitely changed my views on what Parents as Teachers is because with our Healthy Start team, we were only curriculum users, but with our Family Center team, we are affiliates. So it changes completely the role that we have here at the Family Center. So it’s just great. I got to learn new things even though I already was working with the curriculum. Obviously there’s more things to it, like Melissa, Lauren, and Karen know that there’s those 21 essential requirements that we didn’t have with curriculum users. So even though it was more work, I loved it. I love every minute of it. I love going into the homes and building that relationship with these families and the children. Especially when they’re younger, I like to visit younger kids because you grow with them, you become part of them. It’s crazy how one month you go, they’re not walking, and then the following month they’re running. And I’m like, “Weren’t you just a baby?” So I love that about it. We build that trust with the families and helps to get more families into the program once those families graduate because they just talk amazing things about the relationship, the programs, the group connections, the home visitation services. And like Karen was saying, not just that, but everything else that we serve and each case is different. So every day is a new learning curve. Jessica Webster: Yeah. It sounds almost like you get to be like an auntie to the family. Anabel Oceguera: Exactly. Yes. Funny thing in our Healthy Start program, they call us “Madrinas,” which is godmother. Nikevia Thomas: Oh, yeah. That’s nice. Anabel Oceguera: And then once they knew that our Healthy Start and our Family Center program were connected, they were from the state agency, they started calling the Parent Educators “Madrinas” too and it’s crazy because, you know, like a godmother. Jessica Webster: Yeah, that’s really powerful. I mean, that speaks to the power of the work for sure. Anabel Oceguera: Right? Nikevia Thomas: Yeah. Jessica Webster: Yeah. Nikevia Thomas: So since we’re- Karen Shanoski: If I just- Nikevia Thomas: Oh, go ahead, Karen. Karen Shanoski: Could I pick up a little bit on that? Nikevia Thomas: Yeah. Karen Shanoski: We are using the phrase “Parent Educator” and that’s a very generic phrase. Some people, some programs call their staff that are directly involved with families “Family Development Specialists,” some call them “Coaches,” some call them “Madrinas” apparently, some call them “Family Support Staff.” So there are a lot of names, but we do use the phrase “Parent Educator” just to make it generic. We all know we’re talking about the same thing. I wanted to pick up too on this is a relationship between an adult and an adult. And we all enjoy the experiences of having children be the beneficiary of all this work. But this is about partnering with moms and dads and really helping them be the best parents that they can be so that they can have all the different joys in life with child-rearing. And I also wanted to mention that families can enroll prenatally through the first year of school. So these three women might be working with families at very different stages in early childhood. Jessica Webster: Yeah, thank you for that. Nikevia Thomas: So, can you all share how do you see families growing during this time in the PAT program? Anybody want to share any prenatal to first year of school experiences? Lauren Waite: I’d love to. Sometimes it’s literally because I had a family recently that was excited because they just had another baby and they would get me for six more years. Nikevia Thomas: Oh, that’s so nice. Lauren Waite: Because we do get attached, you bond with the families, and so sometimes you’re literally with a mom before they become officially a mom while they’re growing their first child. And you get to follow them all the way through, so you get to see them blossom from the tentative, “I can’t believe they’re letting me take this little baby home from the hospital on my own” moments, to coming into their own and building that confidence and really learning the skills and sometimes becoming a second-time or third-time mom or dad. And we just get to walk beside them for all of that. And it’s just such a beautiful experience to see. The Parent Educators are so… They become your cheerleader, in your corner. Especially since we’re strength-based and it was funny because I was talking to my Parent Educator earlier today and she’s excited to hear this when it comes out because she has watched me go from tentative and quiet to getting to tell our story. And it’s so fun to watch people grow and connect them to the resources that really help them thrive. Nikevia Thomas: That’s nice. Thank you. Karen Shanoski: I bet you all have stories and I hope you’ll tell them. Just to maybe prompt, one of the findings from research is that through Parents as Teachers, parents increase their knowledge of early childhood development and improve their positive parenting practices. Parents as Teachers often, because of those screenings, serves as an early detection of developmental delays and then connection with services. And again, because of some of the screenings, parent, child, and the whole family’s health and well-being is strengthened. Parents as Teachers has been shown to prevent child abuse and neglect, to increase children’s school readiness and success, and I would dare to say increase the parents’ readiness because that’s equally important. As a parent, I can think back to those kindergarten days and know that I knew more the second time around. And more recently, some research has been done to show that Parents as Teachers can improve family economic well-being and also to strengthen community capacity and connectedness in part through that resource network. So I’m betting that you all have some story to tell about one of those research findings. Anabel Oceguera: I can talk a little bit. When Lauren was speaking, it reminded me that sometimes we have families that we serve all the children in the home. And what Karen was saying, how we teach the parent the first time and then them having say, “Oh, remember when you did this with my firstborn? So I’m applying that to my second born.” So in our program, that’s what we want. We want for the parents to remember all the little techniques we’re teaching, but also to become independent so that capacity-wise maybe for the third baby we’re not able to serve them, but at least they’re remembering what we were teaching them about those early years or terrible twos or anything like that. That always lightens my heart. I’m like, “Oh my gosh. They remembered what I taught them three years ago.” So that’s always nice to hear about the families remembering and growing themselves. Jessica Webster: And I would imagine, I mean, this is probably not quantifiable, but I mean, not only are you then taking those skills, practicing them with your next child, but I would imagine when you’re at the park and you’re talking to a friend who’s saying, “Hey, I’m really struggling.” Maybe if they’re talking about, “Oh, I learned this technique. Here’s how you do it.” I mean, so the ripple effect then becomes humongous and that might be hard to quantify, but I can imagine that they’re sharing these skills out. That confidence gives them the ability to help others as well. That’s amazing. Thank you for that. Karen, I know you and I have talked a lot in our conversations about that transition from early childhood education to kindergarten. And I know you had mentioned some ways that your program, PAT, supports families and in working with schools as students, as families are transitioning into a kindergarten setting. So can you tell us a little bit more about what that might look like for families? Karen Shanoski: Sure. I can give you some generic kinds of ideas and what we’re hoping happens. And I believe all three of your programs actually have some specific programs that help families make that connection with school. I mean, throughout the whole time, I’m glad you picked up on that confidence, it’s this idea of confidence and competence that a parent can feel that they really can be their child’s best advocate, their child’s best teacher and guide in life. And so in terms of getting ready for school, in a really literal sense, here in Pennsylvania, we encourage the PAT programs to make connections with the early learning standards and understand and be able to explain to parents curiosity is a learning strategy. So encourage your child to ask questions, ask questions yourself, that’s really important, that going for a walk can be like a science experiment. And so again, helping parents see that everything they do has a connection with their child becoming successful in a more formal learning environment. A lot of our group connections also I think help families with everything from going to the library and beginning to use the library as a resource in the community, even if it’s primarily for entertainment purposes. I used to take my boys to the Saturday movies. But still, we knew about libraries then and how to use them. Some of the programs do “What You Do Matters,” which is helping parents understand brain development. And again, all those basic daily things. Some programs use a workshop series called “Goals and Assets” about financial management for family resources, which also helps feeling secure and being able to make plans going forward for being in a community. Many of the programs do more formal kindergarten readiness with the schools in their communities through visits and through having children and parents experience drop off and pick up. Some of our families do use Head Start or child care services, but some of our families have no connection with care for their children outside of their home. And so kindergarten is like, “Whoa, you mean I leave them there? You mean they’re going to eat somebody else’s food?” That kind of stuff. So there’s a lot of one-on-one, but there are some other programs that from the early learning standards through some of the workshop series that families can participate in. Maybe the three of you would like to share something about some of the programs that you do that are most related to kindergarten. Oh, I apologize. I do want to emphasize that, back to the beginning, the confidence and competence that we really want parents to… We try to use those words: you’re the family’s leader. And it’s both moms and dads. There are more women enrolled in Parents as Teachers, but both moms and dads are enrolled. And we want them to see themselves as leaders and that we help teach them how to advocate for themselves and for their children and be thinking, “What’s the trajectory for my child? What is he or she showing an interest in? How do I talk to the teacher if I’m concerned about something or I’m excited about something?” I’m sorry. Go ahead. Anabel Oceguera: I can share a little bit of what our Family Center here in Maternal and Child Health Consortium does. We have a kindergarten readiness transition program with one of our local school districts. We have partnered up with them. They partner up with us for us to use their facilities, so we go every summer for two weeks. We have a kindergarten transition program. Like Karen was saying, there’s still many kids that don’t have any preschool experience and many of the families that we serve are in these numbers. So going from all your life that you’ve known as a child, five, six years in your home with your mom, and that’s it. It is like, I could not imagine being five years old and saying, “You have to say goodbye to your mom and you’re going to be there for…how long? And I have to do things on my own and my mom isn’t going to be there.” So this transition program that we have here serves greatly for that purpose. We do offer transportation, so that’s a big key factor because even if we do have kids that have preschool experience, most preschools don’t have buses in our area. Even from, you know, riding the bus. I helped during the first two days in the bus and it’s tears after tears. They don’t want to leave mom’s hand. And then I compare that to the last day, everyone is like, “Oh, what do you mean we’re not coming back?” No, it’s done. And they’re like, “Oh, well, I really like the bus.” So they get to build connections. And for those children that do end up going to district’s elementary school is a great transition because it’s a familiar place. They know they’ve been there before. Most of them have already seen their teachers from this transition program because the district allows their teachers to teach the transition program. So it’s a great partnership we have with this local school district in our area that is just amazing. We have surveys at the end of the summer program and parents love it. Parents wish every school district was like this because we do have the parents that don’t go to the school district, but they can come because we serve them. And they’re like, “We wish our district had this because the children will know… It’s better for them to know where they’re going instead of sitting in this bus thinking about all the traumas that they might go to or experience, all the nervousness.” A lot of kids do throw up when they’re nervous. So it’s just hectic. So our transition program is great for that. Jessica Webster: That’s really powerful. That’d be beneficial for a lot of families to participate in schools to provide for their students that are coming into school. Because even if you are in a preschool year, right? It’s all those different things that you don’t think about, riding a bus, or just even the size of the facility and how many different faces are at a facility in a public school or even a smaller private school versus a preschool program, an early childhood program. That’s very true. Anabel Oceguera: Right. Yeah. Jessica Webster: Yeah. Karen Shanoski: I think those group connections are another point for parents to be able to talk with each other about how this transition is going. And Parents as Teachers can actually… A family can continue to be involved through that first year of school so that there’s not this hard break at this big momentous time in the family’s life, but that the families can stay enrolled. And those group connections, I’m confident serve a good purpose for helping families be connected about their experiences. Jessica Webster: So this is amazing. And I’m thinking if I’m listening to this and I’m a family, I would want to know how I can be involved in a PAT program, like Lauren and Melissa were able to participate in. What is the process for learning more about that as a family or a grandparent? Karen Shanoski: I think each program will have a different intake process, but I know that most programs are eager for families to find them. Just from reports, the highest way that Parents as Teachers programs encounter family is through other families. “Hey, you should try this out.” Some programs work with OBGYNs. Some families work with WIC offices. I mean, some programs work with other community-based services as a means of just sharing information. Some work with insurance companies. Variety of ways that PAT programs are involved in the community and then know that they can refer to the different Parents as Teachers programs. And again, from that prenatal period, the family can stay enrolled through the first year in school. Probably they would enroll with a PAT program no later than when a child is four, so that they get the benefit. We think that… Well, research shows that the best results come when families are enrolled between two and three years. But Melissa, Anabel, and Lauren, maybe something about how people either find you or how they can enroll. Melissa Hassler: How we get referrals for our program are through the WIC office. We work with insurance programs. We do a lot of, like I said, CYS cases. Our substance abuse disorder programs in our area give us a lot of referrals, word of mouth. We also, because of the overhead program that we’re under, which is Community Prevention Partnership, we do a lot of outreach and community services. So when there’s events, we set up tables at those events as well so that we can get our program out there. And that’s how we receive our referrals. Karen Shanoski: Amazing. Lauren Waite: We do similarly. OBGYNs, insurance companies, pediatricians, the library sometimes tells people, people can self-refer in Johnstown by going to beginningsinc.org and signing up. And we do different recruitment things. Some of our families are brought to us through our playgroup, our Parents and Children Together, which is right at our office. So we have the umbrella of Beginnings to help connect people to our program also. So that’s helpful in Johnstown. Karen Shanoski: Parents as Teachers does not have income requirements. Any family is welcome to enroll. Some funding sources do set some limits so that there are some programs that may serve families with certain incomes as a priority, but the model itself does not have any income requirements. I’m sorry. Just jump in again. Jessica- Jessica Webster: No, that’s good. Karen Shanoski: You mentioned grandparents. I’m guessing all three of you, if not families that you’re working with, you know of families in your program where grandparents or other family members are taking a lead role as a caregiver of a child or the children and work with the parents too. But lots of different family configurations are involved in our programs. Jessica Webster: Yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you for that. Nikevia Thomas: This has been quite the conversation. I feel so much more informed about PAT. Thank you all. As we wrap up, there’s a final question that we ask all our guests. From your perspective, if a school wanted to adapt their current practices to engage and empower families as true partners at the table, where should the school begin? And what is one thing that people can do today to begin building relationships of trust between families and educators? Lauren Waite: I mean, we’d love to do a warm handoff with our programs to educators. I think that’s key. So communication and rapport, I think, are key. Nikevia Thomas: Communication and rapport. Lauren Waite: Or it all comes down to building relationships. I guess I could make that one thing, but more than one word. And I think that that’s so helpful. One of the things I love about our work that we do is it’s all strength-based and all kind. I always wanted to be a Care Bear when I grew up and this is the closest I can get- Nikevia Thomas: That’s adorable. Lauren Waite: To doing that. To put love out in the world. And to give that to parents and kids, I mean, I can’t say enough about the program and about what we get to do and it’s basically Care Bears… Jessica Webster: That may be a good podcast for next time. What kind of Care Bear would you… Nikevia Thomas: What kind of Care Bear are you? Lauren Waite: We should. Yeah, that would be great. Jessica Webster: Yeah, thank you for that. Anabel Oceguera: I just- Jessica Webster: Go ahead, Anabel. Anabel Oceguera: I think that school districts, most of them are very structured and they have different guidelines and things they have to do. And if they’re public schools, they have more things from each state, from each local municipality. But I feel like what’s great about Parents as Teachers that any district could adapt to is meeting parents where they’re at. I, myself, I have a five-year-old. And parents are busy and sometimes just meeting them where they’re at. Some parents are not available during work hours, at all. They get in trouble for being on their phones, answering phone calls. So it’s like, “Oh, well, you didn’t pick up. So you must not care about your kid.” “No, I was working because if I can’t work, I can’t provide for my children.” So meeting parents where they’re at. We’re huge on home visitation. I know school districts are busy, but some parents could benefit from that. Some children could benefit from that. And just, I know capacity-wise and everything with the shortage of teachers and everything that might be 20 years from now, but just meeting them where they’re at, meeting them in their language, or having an interpreter for those families that cannot speak the main language would be great. Because for example, I just came from a home visit and the child has some special education program and the progress report was sent in English. The mother has… She doesn’t know how to speak English, so how is she going to be her child’s first teacher if she cannot even understand a progress report sent by the special program education? So you would think we would be there, but unfortunately we still need some fixing, some more steps. But definitely meeting parents where they’re at is huge. Jessica Webster: I agree. Thank you, Anabel. Thank you for that. Melissa, what do you think? Melissa Hassler: I have to agree with what everyone else said. I mean, the meeting where parents are at, that’s probably the best response ever because even on our program, we’ve got to meet our parents where they’re at. If that means I have to meet them at McDonald’s at 7:30 in the morning because they don’t want me to come to their house, that’s where I’m going to meet them. It also means that I might have to meet them at 7:00 PM at their house because they’re working. So you’ve got to understand how their family is built and structured and what they’re going through to be able to even begin to help them be their child’s first teacher. If we can’t be flexible and get on their level and include them, we’re never going to get anywhere. And I know schools, like you were saying, schools are very structured and stuff, but they do have the opportunity to have… When they have parent groups and PTOs, they could have those in the evening. There is no reason… I don’t think there’s any law that says, “Oh, we have to meet in the school by 3:00 and that’s that.” My son is currently going to Head Start right now, and they’re trying this huge fatherhood initiative, which is a wonderful thing. I hope it works for them. However, their first meeting was last Tuesday at 8:30 in the morning. Now, most people are working. We want our families to be working. We need our families to work so that they can support their kids- Jessica Webster: We do. Yeah, that’s right. Melissa Hassler: And they’re picking to have a meeting at 8:30 in the morning. My husband, who would love to be part of that, will never be able to participate because he has a sometimes 60-hour a week job, depending… He works in the construction field. Today, he’s in Philadelphia. I have no clue when he’ll walk in our door because he’s got to finish the job before he can come home. You can’t leave someone’s roof off of their house for the next day. And I said that to the family engagement worker who’s in charge of that, who actually is a guy. And I said, “My husband’s disappointed. He would love to do this.” And if they’re going to set it, say the third Wednesday at 6:00 PM, I’m sure most of the dads could maybe block that time out. But to be a random Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday at 8:30 in the morning? They’re not going to be able to come. And it was sad to hear, I think only two fathers ended up showing up to this meeting out of a program that has 647 kids. So it’s sad. They’re not meeting their families at all where they need to be met at and- Jessica Webster: I always say it’s extra work too, right? Because designing all this work and then it doesn’t have the impact that you’re hoping it has if we’re not meeting families where they are. Melissa Hassler: You got it. Jessica Webster: It’s extra work, but doesn’t lead to great results, I think. Melissa Hassler: Yeah. And just like our program too, we do group connections and we do them every month. And we spend a lot of time on them. We spend a lot of money on them too. But some of my co-workers, they’re so set in, “Oh, I got to be done at 4:00. So our group connections only can be till 4:00.” And that’s how it’s got to be. Like I said, I have a three-year-old. My husband, I don’t ever know when he’s going to be home. But it’s once a month. We know that it’s usually the third Thursday of the month. I know that I have to find care for Daniel till potentially 6:00, 7:00 that night. Sometimes that means me going to get Daniel at school and bringing him back to group connections with me- Jessica Webster: To group connections. Yeah. Melissa Hassler: Because I don’t have anything. And I try not to say too much because I’m one of the newest staff members there, but we would get more clients to come if we offered it after 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. We have this big Christmas one coming up and our supervisors set this one up for us. They picked the day, but it’s over at 4:00. You have to come between 10:00 and 4:00. Well, my clients that work will never be able to come between 10:00 and 4:00. Jessica Webster: They won’t be able to participate. Yeah. Melissa Hassler: So they miss out on this wonderful Christmas program because they don’t offer it till later in the evening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jessica Webster: That’s a really great point. Karen Shanoski: Well, these friends speak for me. Lauren Waite: Sometimes- Karen Shanoski: No, go ahead, Lauren. Lauren Waite: I was just going to say, sometimes communicating and learning what the barriers are and when people are available can remove some of that trouble. And that’s something that we try to do in our programs. We try to suss out when our people can come. Hopefully the schools are doing that too. It’s beneficial. And if we can team up together and make the team bigger, sometimes we can provide more opportunities in various times. Jessica Webster: It’s great point. Karen Shanoski: I think they each said something that I thought was really important about relationships, about strengths, and about meeting people where they are. And I think the thing that I think about a lot is respect. And it’s one thing to say I respect the parents who come to my school. It’s another to actually expect them to be the best parent for their children and really take that mindset of that might not be the way I rear my children, but that parent is doing what’s working for their family. And I think if school folks could be that open and demonstrate respect in that way, that they expect the best, that could be really helpful. Jessica Webster: Yeah. I agree with you, Karen. We’re all doing the best we can with what we have, right? Karen Shanoski: Yeah. Jessica Webster: I just think ultimately that’s the truth. Nikevia Thomas: We all need to meet each other where we are. Jessica Webster: I love that. That’s our new mantra. We have a new one. We’re good with that. Oh, thank you so much for joining us today, everyone. We really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to share with us the wonderful work that you’re doing for our families. Yeah, thank you so much. Nikevia Thomas: Yes. Karen Shanoski: Thank you for listening to us. Lauren Waite: Thank you for having us. Nikevia Thomas: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Lauren Waite: Yeah. And for giving this a voice. Exciting to be here. Jessica Webster: Well, we’re lucky to, at CAFE, be able to partner with PAT and help continue that work. So it’s been wonderful to have that partnership with you all and we appreciate the work that you do so much for our families and family engagement in general. And to our listeners, thank you so much for sharing a cup of conversation with us. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. So until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing. And don’t forget to follow us on X @CAFE_MAEC.

Nikevia Thomas: Hello everybody. This is Nikevia. Jessica Webster: And Jessica. Nikevia Thomas: From MAEC’s CAFE, and you’re listening to the Corner CAFE podcast. Families, schools, and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So let’s get started. Jessica Webster: We are thrilled to spend time talking about all things middle school with Phyllis Fagell. Whether you’re a middle grades educator or a current or soon-to-be parent of an adolescent, this episode is for you. Phyllis is a nationally board-certified school counselor and a therapist who works with kids and families in private practice at the Chrysalis Group in Bethesda, Maryland. She’s an educational consultant and an author and journalist. She’s the author of bestselling books Middle School Matters and Middle School Superpowers. And she’s also a frequent contributor to The Washington Post. She freelances for publications, including Psychology Today, CNN, Working Mother, U.S. News & World Report, and Your Teen. And her ideas have been shared in outlets including The New York Times, The Atlantic, The New Yorker, Edutopia, MindShift, and NPR. Phyllis speaks at schools and organizations nationally and internationally on a broad range of topics related to counseling, education, and parenting. She lives in Bethesda, Maryland with her husband and her three children. Nikevia Thomas: In addition, Phyllis recently hosted a virtual session for our MAEC’s Here Everyone Reaches Optimal Outcomes afterschool program, better known as HERO. She talked to families about middle school and how to support their children. It was such a wonderful session that we knew we had to invite her here to take a little deeper dive with us on this podcast. Welcome to the Corner CAFE, Phyllis, we are honored to have you here today. Phyllis Fagell: Thank you for inviting me. It’s so nice to kick off the school year with this podcast. Jessica Webster: Yeah, absolutely. That’s perfect timing. I sent off my eighth grader yesterday to school, and I was thinking this is the time that we are in where we have to remember all these things that are happening to our kids. So thank you so much for joining us today. So I’m a former middle school principal and two of my three are firmly ensconced in adolescence. And my third one’s right on the cusp. He just turned 10 this summer. And I have to say that I so appreciate your love of this age group and the wisdom that your articles and your books and your website and blog share with us, because as a former school principal and someone in it, this age group can be really, really tough. Phyllis Fagell: It can be, and you’re really in the thick of it as both a former principal and someone shepherding three kids through that phase right now. Jessica Webster: And somehow it’s easier. I don’t know if you feel this way, I feel like it’s a lot easier with the kids that don’t come home with you at the end of the day. So let’s start by setting the record straight on what actually is happening during adolescent development that makes this group such… It’s such a unique time for our kids. So can you share with us what is going on with these kids in their brain and their development that is impacting their behavior and learning in such a unique way? Phyllis Fagell: So first, just to clarify, I’m really talking about kids as young as 10, as old as 15. The phase can last quite a long time, and kids are going through it at different speeds in different ways. It’s why we see so many kids who go to sixth grade and suddenly don’t want to be friends anymore with that same kid that their families have been friends with, that they’ve known forever, that they’ve played with after school since first grade. That can be really hard for parents and really hard for kids. And that has a lot to do with how quickly they’re maturing or what their interests are at that point in time. But what we know about middle schoolers is that they are at a point where their brain is very much still developing, their empathy is still developing. They’re impulsive, they’re very susceptible to behavior contagion, to wanting to do what their peers are doing. They’re trying to figure out who they are, whether they’re good enough, where they fit in. They desperately want a sense of independence. They want to feel a sense of agency. They can be 13 or 3 depending on the day or the hour. I love this age because they are so funny. They can really have that child-like innocence, but they’re also really smart and sophisticated so you can get all of the moods, all of the emotions, because don’t forget, they’re also going through puberty and have hormones coursing through their bodies and their prefrontal cortex is very much undeveloped, which is where all logical thinking is happening, which sets the stage for a lot of fun and a lot of messiness. Jessica Webster: Yeah, messiness. That’s a good word for it. Nikevia Thomas: That is a great- Phyllis Fagell: Or fun messiness. Nikevia Thomas: Yes, it is fun, dynamic messiness. So I am remembering in your first book, Middle School Matters, you made a very compelling case for why middle school is so important and how we can work together as educators and as families to support our children in developing their skills that they need to grow into healthy, happy, thriving adults. Research shows that family engagement between schools and families tend to decrease at this age. So with that in mind, what are some essential elements of school and family partnerships that are particularly appropriate during middle school age as opposed to elementary school? Phyllis Fagell: So I really feel for parents in this phase, and I remember feeling this way myself. I actually wrote that book when my first child was in middle school and my second one had just started and I was very much living the middle school dream, and I also didn’t know what my role was. It seemed like they wanted me there, but not really. They wanted to be with me but not seen with me. And they wanted me to care about what they were doing and to show interest, but they didn’t want me to be too intrusive, they didn’t want me to interfere with that burgeoning independence. And so I think that’s what a lot of parents are going through in elementary school. You can do anything, you can show up in the classroom, you can read a book, you can go on a field trip, and in middle school that becomes less easily recognizable where you can make that difference. And so it doesn’t mean you’re not involved, but you’re involved differently. It might be that you’re joining the PTSA or whatever the school happens to call that, or the parent-teacher-student organization. Or maybe you’re helping out in the office in some way that’s not too intrusive in terms of your kid’s daily life, and some kids will want you to come on that field trip. But really feeling out where your kids are, but recognizing that while just to take a step back, not to take too far of a step back because they care very much what you think. And I call middle school the last best chance. It’s the last opportunity to really make a difference because they’ve started to pull away and identify more with their friends, but they haven’t yet made that complete jump and you can still make a massive difference in terms of their moral development and skill development. Jessica Webster: I think that’s true. And I also think, I don’t know if you would agree with this, Phyllis, it’s also as you are figuring out with your child what that balance needs to be in terms of that school partnership place, it’s also the balance between helping advocate for your child while they’re learning those skills and making that switch to encouraging them to do the advocacy first before you intervene with the school. Phyllis Fagell: Yeah. In Middle School Matters I broke it down this way. Let’s say you’ve got a sixth grader and they have never sent an email to a teacher. They have no idea how to ask for help. You might be sending that email for them or making contact with the school for them, but you want to have your kid sitting next to you watching you do that, watching you use a respectful salutation, watching you think through how you want to get your point across. And then maybe in seventh grade they’re sending that email, but you’re next to them and making sure that they are getting their point across. And by eighth grade, you want them to be able to do that on their own so that when they get to high school they can be good, strong self-advocates. Jessica Webster: That’s right. I think that that’s very true and that’s part of that balance. I think from the school side, that’s a really great place. When I heard you say parents don’t always know where they fit in, and how do schools really think through how we’re welcoming families into this space in a way and helping them understand what’s developmentally appropriate and helping them understand how to make that from walking your child holding their hand across the street, to watching them across the street, to letting them do it completely by themselves? And I think we do need to help parents understand the importance of those barriers – those milestones, is a better word than barriers – and how their role helps in service to the school, even though it might be outside of the school setting, not just the volunteering piece and the traditional ways that we do it more in elementary school because it’s easier to see that way. Phyllis Fagell: Yes. And I really appreciate schools that make it easy for all kinds of parents to get involved. Maybe some events are in the morning and some are in the afternoon or some are on Zoom, or they can watch something later. Maybe there’s a book club that they don’t have to go to every single session, but when they can, they can feel that connection to the school. Or maybe there’s a family that is new to the country and can contribute something related to their culture to an international night or to the classroom. But making it clear that there are lots of different ways, but their input is welcome and they’re welcome and their child does want them there. Again, as you were saying, just making sure they understand how it’s different developmentally. Jessica Webster: How it’s different. Right, yeah. Phyllis Fagell: Absolutely. Jessica Webster: Yeah, I love that, thank you. Another one of the key themes, it’s really in both of your books, is how middle school behavior doesn’t always make sense to us as adults. And as you said earlier, it’s like the impulse control. I’m always struck by that lack of perception, how they filter through things and their perceptions are often not always correct in the way that they perceive what is being said. But middle schoolers are likely to make at least a couple of times some significant miscalculations in their interactions with peers and adults. So what would your recommendations be for adults, both parents and even teachers in these situations? How can they identify what’s happening and do you have any ideas for tools to help navigate these situations? Phyllis Fagell: Yeah, one of the things that I love, love/hate about middle schoolers is that they can invite someone to their birthday party but then be horribly offended when that same person doesn’t invite them to theirs. No one has a sense of injustice like an 11-year-old boy or a 13-year-old girl. They really are so egocentric and is developmentally appropriate too. It’s not that they’re going to grow up to have poor character, be selfish people, or completely lacking in empathy, they’re just really self-absorbed. And what we want to be doing is identifying when they need our help and when they need our coaching and when they need our intervention and different scenarios call for a different touch. So when I’m talking to parents about social situations, let’s say if your child has zero friends and zero social skills, they’re really lagging in social skills, you can’t just expect them to call up a friend. That’s a huge risk. Or to call up a potential friend, they’re going to need some help. That might mean reaching out to the school and asking if there are any clubs or groups or adults who might take them in at lunch and invite someone else who might be an appropriate friend. If your child has friends, but they’re struggling with fighting and arguments and a lot of drama, they may need help, coaching, help understanding when they do and don’t need to be in the middle of something. One of the stories that I sometimes tell when I’m talking to parents is wearing my school counselor hat, I’ll have a group of, let’s say eight girls and one boy, there’s always one boy, who show up at my door after lunch or after any kind of unstructured time, and they’re all talking at once and they say, “Wait, hold on, who is here because you know what happened and you want to corroborate this story? You can leave. Who’s here because you know what happened and you want to refute it? You can leave. Who’s here because everyone was walking this way, follow them?” That’s always the one boy. But what I’m really trying to do is underscore for the kids that they don’t need to expend their limited emotional energy on everyone else’s crises. It’s not intuitive at this age. When it’s meanness, they’re having a fight with somebody who’s saying something mean, but they’re being mean too. And every kid in middle school is mean sometimes. If they have [inaudible 00:13:36] they’re mean sometimes, again coaching, helping them think through what they want, whether it’s a relationship that’s working for them, how they want to resolve it or not, but not getting involved. When it’s bullying, which is the three P’s, there’s an intent to wound, which is that purpose. There’s a power imbalance. And there’s a pattern of behavior, it’s not just a one-off. Then those kids do need direct intervention. Probably in most cases, that would mean contacting the school. Jessica Webster: Yeah. Yeah, thanks for laying that out with a good example too. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah, I was just thinking about… I was listening to what you were saying, Phyllis, and then putting it against the analogies. This is our next last chance. And having that in mind, also considering that in human development, this age group, your brain is developing at such a faster rate than it is if you’re a toddler. Phyllis Fagell: That’s right. Nikevia Thomas: It is the last best chance. This is where you can lay all of the foundations here. Phyllis Fagell: And the brain is different too. One of the pieces of research that really stuck with me when I was writing Middle School Superpowers is this idea that middle schoolers, unlike older adolescents, don’t work harder or care more because the stakes are high. In fact, it often goes the other way, they perform worse because they think their life depends on it, their future depends on it. And so often very well-meaning parents will say, “If you don’t do this, you’re not going to be able to take that class in high school” or, “This will impact whether or not you can play varsity in four years.” It can feel very important to the parent, but heightening that sense of importance, if anything, is just going to make the kid back off and do less. Jessica Webster: Wow. I feel like that was directed at me. I feel like I might’ve said something like that to my son the other day. Putting in a little more effort. Phyllis Fagell: I didn’t know that for anyone listening, I swear. Jessica Webster: She really didn’t. Yeah, no, I think you’re right. And I think part of it is as adults sometimes we’re in… We can be in such a hurry because we’re like… I would say, it’s like you’re looking down on the dance floor. We know what you’re anticipating. You don’t see what’s coming in. And we know we experienced it and we know. And they’re just like, “Let me just have fun on the dance floor. Let me just enjoy the dance.” And we’re like, “But wait, you got to get ready for what’s next.” And it rushes them through it. Phyllis Fagell: Completely. And I can relate. I have three kids of my own. I’ve definitely been in your shoes on many, many occasions and it’s taken me a long time. Now my oldest is 23, and in many ways they still have the brain of a middle schooler, but an older, more empathetic, slightly more put-together middle schooler. But kids’ brains don’t fully mature until they’re about 25 for girls and 27 for boys. So this is a long, long process. And what I want to just for my parents is that there’s value in them getting things wrong. There’s value in making those mistakes. Especially if they’re embarrassing or humiliating because then it gets lodged in that longterm memory. They’re much less likely to make that same mistake again. And they’re tuning us out if we’re lecturing anyway. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Jessica Webster: You just watch their eyes glaze right over. Nikevia Thomas: There’s value in mistakes. There’s value in risk. One of the messages that really resonated with us is your emphasis on building resilience during these challenging and tough years. So what specific skills are needed to foster resilience in middle schoolers? Phyllis Fagell: The last chapter of Middle School Superpowers is about optimism. And that really is the chapter that to me summarizes what resilience is. It’s about seeing setbacks as situational and temporary as opposed to seeing them as pervasive and permanent. Some of that involves imparting a bit of philosophical wisdom that is hard to transmit at an age when they have such little life experience and they have no way of knowing that making a mistake can be turned around, that if you put one foot in front of the other, even when things are hard, odds are, things will get better. We really just want them to try lots of different things, experiment, figure out where their strengths and interests intersect without being down on themselves, without deciding that it’s a hopeless cause. One of the hallmarks of a middle schooler, again, is that self-centeredness. And so I might have a student who is being hard on himself because he’s not as strong or as athletic as a classmate, and I’m looking at the two of them, and one of them’s gone through puberty and has more muscle mass and a mustache that he’s trying to shave, and the other one is prepubescent. And that prepubescent kid just doesn’t have that perspective, that understanding that it’s not a level playing field at that moment in time. But it’s hard if that friend and maybe another friend make that team that they wanted to make and they didn’t. So I see adults’ job as helping them stay in the game so that they can build that resilience because resilience comes from making those mistakes, experiencing those disappointments, losing that friend, and seeing that you will regroup, seeing that you might end up doing something else you like equally as much if not more, or that you end up with better-suited friends or that, sure, that class was hard, but one of the things you learn from it is that you can do hard things or you’re more likely to persevere later than someone else for whom school was always easy. So helping with that reframe for them, helping them retain that optimism. I share a story in Middle School Superpowers about my own son. When I was writing the book, he was 14 and it was in real time. He’s now 16. But he had braces and he was pretty much the last kid in his grade to still have braces. And every time we went to the orthodontist, the orthodontist would be like, “Next time. Braces are coming up next time.” And he started to lose hope because he thought, “Come on, this guy is blowing smoke. He says that every time.” But then we had an appointment, it was on the cusp of high school, middle of eighth grade, and the orthodontist said, “No, I promise next time they really are coming off.” So he was so excited for that visit. We went and guess what? It turned out they were not ready. So fast-forward a couple of days, he’s at baseball practice and he gets hit in the mouth with a baseball and it banged up his face and it dented the braces and back we went to the orthodontist. And the orthodontist took one look at his mouth and said, “The only thing that kept your permanent teeth from flying out of your mouth were your braces.” He made fun of me for really hammering home the point, but the point really was we have no way of knowing if getting what we want is a good thing or a bad thing. And to me that’s a huge part of resilience. Jessica Webster: Yeah, yeah, that’s very true. I think as you’re talking though, when we’re talking about this part of building that resilience and our role in that, it’s difficult to do if we haven’t first built that sense of trust with our teens and tweens. And so advice on that: what are some good ways or tactics or things to think about maybe when we’re thinking about building trust with teens and tweens as educators or as parents or family members? Phyllis Fagell: Sure. There was a student I had many years ago, and I shared a story in Middle School Matters about her. She came to me and she said… This was a seventh grade girl. And she said, “Can you please tell parents…” Our parents, I was speaking to their parents that night, it was a back-to-school night. She said, “Can you please tell our parents not to ask us if we’re okay? Because in that moment we feel compelled to say, ‘We’re fine,’ but then we feel like we’ve missed the moment that we can’t go back and revisit it.” And so what I tell parents is just check in on low freight topics frequently. So if they’re spending more time in their room, which is normal, knock on their door, ask them if they need a snack, ask them how they’re doing, what’s going on, if there’s anything you can do for them. I think the tendency is for us, whether we’re parents or teachers or administrators, anybody, to spend so much of our time teaching kids, imparting our expectations of them rather than giving them an opportunity to teach us something, to be the expert in their lives, to tell us what they’re interested in, and asking for help, whether it’s with your remote control or a printer. Can be very low level things, but just signaling that respect, talking to them as if they’re a little bit older and more mature than they are. Recognizing that kids will rise or fall to the level of our expectations. Keep them reasonable and attainable and manageable, but within reason, keeping those expectations high. Not being too intrusive. Kids will shut down if they think you’re lecturing. They’ll shut down if they think you’re prying. They do not want drama. So try to practice that poker face. Or as one of my colleagues says, the Botox face. Jessica Webster: Love it. Phyllis Fagell: Don’t show your shock. That’s something I have to work on with my own husband. I’m like, “Step it down, step it down.” Some people have a harder time with that than others. And always giving them a runway back to being a good kid. So I like phrases like, “I’m guessing you did that because,” or, “I also would be disappointed if.” And so let’s say they are caught cheating at school, “I’m guessing you cheated because you were afraid to admit you didn’t know what you were doing.” Or, “I’m guessing you lied because you were afraid. I would tell you you couldn’t go to X person’s house or that I’d take away your phone.” You’re not saying it’s okay, you’re not giving them permission to do it again, but you’re showing some empathy, helping them let down their defenses so they can engage in a conversation with you about it. Inviting them in rather than just, “What were you thinking? What’s wrong with you? Who does that?” You’re not going to actually… They’re going to stuck in shame or they’re going to get really obstinate and neither one of those is going to get you the results you’re looking for. Jessica Webster: Yeah, that stuck in shame is super powerful because ultimately they do want to please you. And so it’s like, “I let this person down, or now they’re going to…” Again, they can’t get out of that in the future. It’ll be okay. It’s like, “In this moment, you’ll never like me again because I did X, Y, and Z,” or, “You’ll never trust me again when I tell you the truth.” Phyllis Fagell: And they hold on to things that we wouldn’t necessarily expect them to hold onto. On many, many occasions had the student tell me that they think the teacher hates them. And when I ask why they think the teacher hates, it’s usually because a few weeks ago when I asked for an extra point, they were annoyed and I could tell they were annoyed or they used a sharp tone because I was talking to somebody or distracted, and the teacher is probably forgetting about it and moving on, it happens 20 times a day within three minutes, and the kid is actually holding onto that and needs an opportunity to have a positive interaction with the teacher to let that go. Jessica Webster: That’s right. And oftentimes the sharp tone or whatever it was, the annoyance isn’t even that moment, it’s like the buildup to that moment. They’re not really mad at you. You’re the 20th kid that they’ve asked to be quiet. You just happen to be number 20. Phyllis Fagell: Yes. That’s a good point. Jessica Webster: Yeah, yeah. That’s a great point. Nikevia Thomas: So let’s talk a little bit about your second book, Middle School Superpowers. So you discuss how COVID-19 pandemic has impacted and shaped adolescent learners. Can you talk about how schools and families may need to approach things differently post-pandemic to support our kids? Phyllis Fagell: Yeah. Just broadening it out is more being a kid today is different and it’s additive. The stressors are additive. We’ve got everything from the advent of social media, the pervasive use of social media, and the lack of an ability for kids to take a social break. At the end of the day, the way they might have the potential for permanent reputational damage, heightens the stakes, the potential for embarrassment and humiliation. We’ve got several wars over the last few years. We’ve got identity politics, we’ve got culture wars, we’ve got everything all at once. And adults as a result are more stressed too. And then you throw in a pandemic on top of that. And for many kids around the country, a lot of interruption to their learning, to their ability to develop social skills. All of that has contributed to what we’re seeing now, which… And The New York Times wrote about this just a few days ago, the crisis in attendance, this idea that attendance is somewhat optional, that it’s harder… We see that with adults too not wanting to go into the office. That’s something… It’s not just kids. Societally, that’s something that we’ve been wrestling with. What’s different about kids, middle schoolers in particular versus adults, is that as adults, especially as adults who did not grow up in the social media age, we had ample time to develop our social skills, to learn how to repair damage when there’s conflict, to understand that it takes several times of approaching a teacher or how to approach a teacher. They just haven’t had as much practice. And so I’m not a doom and gloom person in any way. I think that rather than saying that kids are damaged, they’re just delayed, there’s just a lag. And I think it’s going to take longer. It’s why when I was writing Middle School Superpowers, even though middle school isn’t the title, and I feel like I can say this as the parent of older kids, it really isn’t limited to middle schoolers, it’s across the spectrum. But looking back on my own kids during COVID, my older two had driver’s licenses. They had a very established set of friends. My youngest was in sixth grade and he was a boy and so face-to-face conversation was hard. He was used to playing with his friends by getting out of baseball or by playing a game of pickup basketball. It was very much in person. He now will look back and call it the time, he jokes, but he says, “That was the time I sat on the couch feeling depressed and getting fat.” And I’m like, “Me too, buddy.” Jessica Webster: Yeah. We’re right there with you. Nikevia Thomas: We were all there. Phyllis Fagell: Yeah. But my older two who were stressed about high school, they were in the later high school years at the time, were happy to have a break, happy to be able to get more sleep and easily able to see their peers. So I think some of the kids coming into middle school now who were in earlier in elementary school, those two were years where they didn’t have the ability to spend as much time with peers. And so I think we’re just seeing the same experience in many ways as when my kid was in sixth grade just watered down because they’ve had more time to recover from it. Jessica Webster: Yeah, and I think when I talk to teachers, a lot of them will say… “You’re right. It’s like that delay, like sixth graders coming in a little more like a fourth grader because they missed a year and a half of that socialization that would’ve gotten them ready for sixth grade.” And I think my daughter was in seventh grade during the pandemic, and she’s done great. But I do think that there’s some Swiss cheese skillsets that you’re like, “Those are things that I know developmentally you would’ve been working through in seventh, eighth grade, but you had to work through them once you got to high school.” You’re right, it’s not that you can’t do it, but we need… I think teachers are very well aware of that because they see the trends coming in, but as parents, you might see it in your own kid and some of that and not realize that those are trends overall that are happening. Of course, some kids, that probably isn’t the case and some kids it would be… It’s a spectrum. Phyllis Fagell: Yes. And I think stress has such a big impact on the nervous system. And so even in the areas where kids were in school, there was a heightened level of stress. And that lingers and kids feel that. I had a client who was a ninth grader, this was last year, who had been in fifth grade when the pandemic started. And for her, because so much of middle school was off online and not in the building, it was not that dramatic. She kind of was sad. She wanted to be with her friends more so they [inaudible 00:30:49] kids really want to be with their friends, but it didn’t have that stereotypical middle school feel. And then she got to ninth grade and it was like all hell broke loose. And I said to her, “No one gets a pass on seventh grade.” Jessica Webster: Right. You’re going to do it in ninth grade or you’re going to do it in seventh. That’s right. Phyllis Fagell: And so that’s what’s happening. Whatever kids miss and different kids miss different things. To begin with, some kids are stronger in some areas than another. So one kid might be struggling with their executive functioning while another is struggling with making plans with a friend. One father called me, this was, gosh, maybe about a year ago, and he was really stressed because he felt like his kid just couldn’t seal the deal. His wife were watching the texts go back and forth and it was like, “Hey, we should get together this weekend.” And the buddies would be like, “Yeah, we totally should hang out”, and this is going back and forth. And finally the mom was like, “Someone needs to say, ‘Where are we going? When are we going? Who’s driving us there?'” So helping them recognizing that even though they might be in middle school, and I don’t care if there’s COVID or no COVID, this is true, recognizing that they need a lot of skill development and help that you might associate more with elementary school, to end your conversation, how to politely ask for help, how to make plans. Jessica Webster: Right. And you’re right, because even just thinking about that, at what age do kids start making their own plans versus, “Oh, can so-and-so come over for a playdate” and it’s the moms or the dads or the grandmas that are… Yeah. And they wouldn’t have that skill necessarily. Phyllis Fagell: Yes. And that’s a hard transition for parents too, because especially if their kids struggled suddenly their kids are in middle school and they can’t make those plans for them anymore, but their kid might need that kind of help. And so those are situations where maybe if your kids are at a sports practice, you invite them and a friend to go out for ice cream or lunch after, or maybe you have a potluck with another family with the same age kid. You can still give an assist, but you have to do it in a little more subtle way. Jessica Webster: Yeah. A little bit more behind the scenes, I think. Phyllis Fagell: Yes. Jessica Webster: And while we’re talking about COVID and we’re talking about these developmental milestones, one of the other pieces that you really talk about in the Superpowers book is that idea of mental health and social media and phone usage. So we know the data showing that increase in mental health challenges and their rising. How do you recommend schools and parents proactively partner to mitigate some of these risks? What do we have control over and how do we work together to mitigate those risks for these vulnerable kids? Phyllis Fagell: Yeah. Isn’t that the million-dollar question? I used to be really non-prescriptive, and I don’t know if I’m getting crankier as I get older or we’re collecting more data or we’re really starting to see the influence on kids’ mental health and their social interactions. I’m fully in favor of schools banning phones. Jessica Webster: Me too. Phyllis Fagell: I think it benefits everybody. I think it’s unfair for teachers to have to constantly be telling kids to put it away. It needs to be a rule that’s enforced consistently and fairly. And I know from students that when schools do that, they’re relieved. What they’re worrying about is FOMO. They don’t want to miss out on anything. But as long as they know the school is fair and no one is texting anybody, they really would rather have that face-to-face interaction with their peers too. And they know it’s hard for them to focus. It’s wiring their brains differently. It’s harder for them to pay attention in class for so many reasons. And there’s research that I shared in Middle School Matters that kids who have a phone in the vicinity, even if it’s off, will do a full letter grade worse on a test. We know that if they have a phone while they’re doing homework, they not only are less efficient, they’re also more anxious. And so we as the adults have to be the role models. We have to be helping them take a break from that phone usage and educating communities, educating parents. It’s very hard to enforce something like the Wait Until 8th pledge. I’ve had parents try, I’ve had third grade parents try to get all the third grade parents together to sign a pledge that none of them are going to allow their kid to have a phone until X age. That’s not realistic. And it’s also not equitable because there are families in which it’s a single parent and the kid is taking public transportation. They need that phone. So that’s not an expectation that we can put on families. What we know though, is that even if a good chunk of kids don’t have a phone, that makes it socially much more palatable for those that don’t. And then we can talk about alternatives. You might not want to give your kid a phone, but maybe you give them an iPad that they can text on, or maybe you give them a dumb phone and they can text, but they can’t use social media. Doing whatever we can to delay, delay, delay as long as we can. My 23-year-old was a… We call him the most social Fagell. And when he was in eighth grade, he was as social as he is now. And I would not let him have Snapchat at the time. And we didn’t know nearly as much as we know now. And he was very upset with me and really annoyed and let me know and let me know often. And now at 23, and he even said this to me at 18, it was the greatest gift I could have given him because looking back, he will now say, “I couldn’t have handled the distraction and I couldn’t have handled the social impulsivity that went along with it.” So knowing your kid, playing the long game, recognizing that you might not be popular for all of the choices you make. And then the other hard and fast rule that I would recommend is having no devices in the bedroom at all. Jessica Webster: In the bedroom, yes. Phyllis Fagell: Because nothing good happens when kids are texting or posting at 10 o’clock, 11 o’clock at night, and we want to save them from themselves. So whatever we can do to operationalize that support rather than trying to depend on their wisdom and good judgment, which can get hijacked by all kinds of emotional interference. Jessica Webster: But I would also add to all of that, and I think you said this. I thought you were going to say this because I think you started to, is that it’s so distracting and we need to help them with that. But part of the way we need to help that is also monitoring ourselves. Because that age group is nothing if they’re not really into hypocrisy, pointing out hypocrisy. “So you’re telling me it’s not good to be on my phone.” And I’ve tried the argument where I say, “But my brain’s fully developed,” and that doesn’t seem to help. It didn’t go so well. Phyllis Fagell: I think I’m hopeful. I’ve noticed maybe in the last year it feels like maybe people are slightly less phone focused and a little bit sick of the energy that they need to put into maintaining. I’ve also had kids who don’t want to give up their phone even for a few days for an outdoor education trip because they don’t want their streak to be broken. It becomes such a crutch in that way, but that’s also a burden. And actually just as an aside, the kid who didn’t want to give up their phone, the parents said, “What if the other kid you’re rooming with also gives up her phone?” And she was, “I don’t know if that’s going to work.” But the other kid, their family, the dad said, “I’ll maintain your streak for you.” And so the other kid, the initial kid, her dad said, “I’ll do the same.” It didn’t end up working out that way, they both agreed to just not do it at all. But I loved the image I had in my head of these two dads each snapping each other to keep their streak going. Jessica Webster: I know, because it is so funny. And that does come up because those metrics are really… They translate into such importance for the kids in a way that… In a way it does for all of us. If I post something on social media and I’m like, “Oh, only three people liked it.” I’m like, “What was the point of that? Did I post it for myself or did I post…” But I think that’s really confusing for them. Phyllis Fagell: It is. And hurtful and lasting confidence killing. And that will make them take fewer risks. So we do want to help them in that way as much as we can. And I think social media, thinking back to when my son first got that phone in eighth grade, it’s so different. There’s such a higher level of toxicity when you go on. There’s such poor role modeling even from the adults on some of these sites. Fortunately, of the worst ones are not the ones that kids are drawn to. But we see how it can impact at a broader level just what they think is okay and what’s not okay. And we want our influence to be paramount to matter much more than whatever they’re seeing modeled online. Jessica Webster: Yeah. Not to mention the safety concerns interacting with strangers online. Yeah, no, I think that’s really true. Nikevia Thomas: That’s a great conversation. Phyllis Fagell: We can talk about middle school for hours. Nikevia Thomas: I know. Jessica Webster: All day long. Nikevia Thomas: So as we wrap up, we have a question, a final question that we ask all our guests. From your perspective, if a school wanted to adapt their current practices to engage and empower families as true partners at the table, where should the school begin and what can people do today to begin building relationships of trust between families and educators? Phyllis Fagell: That’s a really good question, and I think you can answer it a lot of different ways. I think the first is to recognize that not all parents are comfortable walking into a school building, not all parents had a comfortable middle school or school experience. Some parents may not have had an uninterrupted educational experience, they might feel insecure. So making sure that the opportunities you’re providing to families are covering a range of different activities, not just a back-to-school night, but really honoring who the families in your community are. And bringing in people who can speak to topics that they care about. Having book clubs for parents who are maybe looking to connect with other parents or could be a volunteer activity that you’re doing. Any way of making sure that you are providing those opportunities. Not every parent is going to want to, but providing the opportunities for parents to come in and get involved. And then really making it clear that you’re so happy that they’re there and that you’re welcoming them. And then I think what administrators can do too is really think carefully about how they’re communicating. Giving parents way more information, not just about things like, “Oh, we’re doing this testing today,” or, “We need this permission slip,” but, “The entire seventh grade was dissecting frogs today, and here’s a couple of pictures,” and posting it online and giving them topics that they can talk about with their children when they come home, giving them those access points. Sometimes it’s hard to know where to jump in and have that conversation and having it be less formal. So maybe there’s a principal in the Midwest, and she would take hundreds of pictures a day of just about everything, like what they were eating. And I’m not saying every principal needs to start taking a few different pictures or spending their entire time on social media, but could be a weekly letter home. But that doesn’t only cover things that are, “Please take your time when you’re going through the bus lane.” But also fun facts about what the kids have been doing and making it a little bit less of an unknown because the unknown and uncertainty is very scary. Jessica Webster: Yeah. And then you can visualize this is who my kid is when they’re at school, or I see them smiling in a picture, so I know that they’re feeling good today. And I also think when I’ll say to my kids, “Oh, what are you learning in math today?” The response is, “Math” or, “Nothing.” So those pictures and insights, like you said, open up the door to say, “I saw you were dissecting a frog today. How was that experience? Tell me more about it.” Phyllis Fagell: That’s so true. I quoted my youngest in Middle School Superpowers. I asked him, “What did you do at school today?” And he said, “I had gym.” And I said, “You had gym. What’d you do in gym?” He said, “I ran.” I said, “Can you expand on that?” He goes, “Around the track.” It’s like- Jessica Webster: Sounds like he and my son would be friends. Phyllis Fagell: Yeah. And some of it was him being funny. And you don’t have to have these huge heavy conversations all of the time, the relationship is based on all of the small little moments. But that’s how a school can help by really giving them fodder for those smaller moments, those unloaded moments that are lighter and aren’t going to feel like there’s the potential to disappoint a parent or that they’ve done something wrong or there’s something they should be stressing about that they didn’t realize they were supposed to be stressing about. Jessica Webster: Yeah. No, I am so glad you said that. I think that too sometimes, it’s like helping with the entry points, helping parents have entry points with their kids. Phyllis Fagell: Yes, for sure. Jessica Webster: Thank you. I could stay all day, Phyllis, though. I could talk about this all the time. Phyllis Fagell: I love geeking out about this topic. Jessica Webster: I know. Phyllis Fagell: And the middle scores are just smaller versions of people, it’s just the developmental phase that makes it different. But everything… They have that whole adage, everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. I really think it’s middle school. Yeah. Jessica Webster: No, I think you’re right. I think the beauty of your books and your articles really is humanizing it and making it so that as a parent or a teacher, I can read that. And here, there are patterns to the behavior. There are things that we can anticipate ahead of time, which makes it a little less personal and makes it a little more like, “I can actually enjoy this.” When you push me away, when I was about to give you a hug, it’s not because you don’t love me, there’s other things going on there, and I can still figure out how to see how you love me in your other ways that you’re behaving or when you’re acting silly in class. It’s not like you’re trying to get under my skin, your impulse control is not there. And so I think with your anecdotes. It’s just very accessible, I think, for families and for educators. So I appreciate the work that you do and your willingness to share out your expertise with all of us. Phyllis Fagell: Thank you. Jessica Webster: Yeah, thank you so much. Nikevia Thomas: Thank you so much, Phyllis. Phyllis Fagell: Good luck with the start of the year. Jessica Webster: Thank you. You too. Nikevia Thomas: Thanks. Jessica Webster: And to our listeners, thank you for sharing a cup of conversation with us. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. So until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing. And don’t forget to follow us on X @CAFE_MAEC.

In this episode of the Corner CAFE podcast, Nikevia and Jessica discuss the Families and Educators Together (FET) model with award-winning educational leader Ari Gerzon-Kessler, exploring effective strategies for building strong family-educator partnerships and transforming school communities.

Nikevia Thomas: Hello, everybody. This is Nikevia and Jessica from MAEC’s CAFE and you’re listening to the Corner CAFE Podcast. Families, schools, and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So let’s get started. Jessica Webster: All right. In today’s episode, we’re chatting with two experts from WestEd about Academic Parent Teacher Teams, also known as APTT. This is a model schools can use for family conferences and it’s such an important topic when we think about engaging families and linking that engagement to learning. I mean, just think about it. Schools have a treasure trove of data, attendance records, benchmark and standardized test scores and assessments of behavior and school climate measures. However, our question is, are we effectively helping our families connect those data points to their individual child’s performance and needs? Recently, Learning Heroes released studies that uncovered some striking findings. According to a national survey, 9 in 10 parents believe their child is at or above grade level. Yet, when we look at the NAEP scores and state assessments, these numbers clearly don’t align. Teachers say the number one way to know your child is progressing is to be in regular contact with them instead of relying on report card grades. So let’s explore one way we can bolster these dialogues that will empower families to be real partners in our educational journey. Nikevia Thomas: But first, let’s get to know our guests. Faith Burtamekh is a Senior Program Associate at WestEd. Faith has extensive experience in school improvement and high impact family engagement and previously served as an administrator with WestEd for a K-8 elementary school. She is the author of Building Capacity for Effective Family Engagement focused on student learning and has even taken the stage as a keynote speaker at the innovation and implementation conference in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. Jessica Webster: And alongside Faith, we are joined by Maria Paredes, a Senior Engagement Manager at WestEd. In 2009, Maria developed the APTT model, which has been adopted by over 2,000 schools nationally. Maria also speaks regularly at national conferences and has offered several articles and briefs, including her co authorship on Planning for Family Engagement in the Charter School Life Cycle: A Toolkit for School Leaders. Faith, Maria, we’re so happy to have you today. Thank you for joining us. Faith Burtamekh: Thank you for having us. We’re looking forward to the conversation. Jessica Webster: All right. Well, so let’s just jump right in and get started. Tell us about WestEd and the work your organization does to support education. And Faith. let’s start with you. Faith Burtamekh: Yes. WestEd is a nonprofit organization focused on success for every learner from birth to adulthood. Our work centers around research development and a wide range of customized services. We take on the most pressing and enduring challenges in education and human development. Everything that we do is all about serving others to ensure that every child has high quality education.We have over 1, 200 employees at WestEd with 13 offices that span the country. Jessica Webster: Wow. Nikevia Thomas: Wow, that’s cool. So over the course of our five year grant, CAFE has partnered with WestEd to implement the APTT model in Maryland. Maria, can you tell us about this model? Maria Paredes: APTT is Academic Parent Teacher Teams, and it’s a model of family engagement that is used in classrooms. The workshop with families is facilitated by the classroom teacher, and it is all focused on data and data informed decision making and learning. APTT meetings are held four times a year, three times as a group of families in each classroom with the teacher. So moms, dads are present together. And once during the year, the teacher meets with the individual student and their families to follow up on the learning that takes place during APTT. Family meetings that are APTT meetings. The, one of the most important things about the APTT format is that it’s really in a big way, it’s about building community it’s about families in a classroom, getting to know each other, learning from each other and supporting each other. That is the kind of learning environments in which adults thrive. And that’s one of the key areas of Academic Parent Teacher Teams Jessica Webster: It’s really interesting. I like that idea of the families coming together to learn. So you talked a little bit about that data. What types of data, or can you kind of walk us through what those first three meetings, what the topics would be for the families that are learning together on how to read this data and understand that for their children. Maria Paredes: So let’s say that I am a fourth grade teacher in a particular school. What I do with my fourth grade team of teachers is look at our diagnostic data, our beginning of the year testing, And, uh, from that, chunk out the concepts that students are struggling with and that we will be teaching in the classroom. So I take that data and put it in easy to understand graphs, and then spend sufficient time during the meeting really helping families understand how to read the graphs, and how to interpret the graphs, and how their own particular children are performing. This, the whole point of using data is just to really have transparent, open communication with families so that they really know and can take action on supporting their child. If my child is a little, it needs a lot more work on reading comprehension, then that’s what the teacher is going to focus on and give families. Not only the understanding of where their child is, but they also strategies and resources to model activities that are going to allow the families to, to do their part with home practice. And I suppose integrating that type of learning into all kinds of things that families do on a daily basis, like read stories, watch movies, uh, and all kinds of different conversations that are had on a daily basis between parents and children. Jessica Webster: So it’s taking that data, showing the broader picture and the patterns for the whole class, and then helping families interpret the data for their own child, but then also pairing that with the activities that will help enhance their child’s experience in school. Maria Paredes: Yes, and also showing families with the data, not only with their children right now in time, but where, what’s the standard? What are the expectations at the end of the school year? So parents really have a clear picture of the work that they have to do in partnership with the teacher. It’s the data that enriches that understanding that parents have of, “where am I now? Where are we going, and what do I have to do to get there together with the teacher and classroom instruction?” Jessica Webster: Yeah, I love that. It really sounds like it makes the data actionable for everyone involved, including the teachers. Maria Paredes: That’s exactly the purpose. Jessica Webster: Yeah, I love it. Nikevia Thomas: So I have a question in connection to that. Looking at the quarterly meetings, some school districts might find this a little time consuming, especially if they’re used to scheduling one or two, 15 to 20 minute meetings for parents’ conferences during the year. How do you convince the districts of the value of does the data show an impact on student achievement? Faith Burtamekh: Typically, the schools and districts who work with our team reach out to us because they already have a desire to improve their school culture, the relationships that they have with the community that they serve, and they truly do want to build trust with their community. And improve student learning outcomes. So a lot of times we don’t, we don’t find ourselves in a position where we’re convincing schools or districts to want to do this work. They’ve already have that innate desire to want to improve and partner with families and much different than we’ve traditionally done in the past with parent teacher conferences. And schools we find that are most successful with implementing Academic Parent Teacher Teams are really eager to think about how they can begin to integrate all of the learning priorities with the key initiatives that they’re responsible for implementing in a given year. And they truly do understand that family engagement is not something that happens as a standalone practice. It really is something that is essential to planning and implementing everything that happens at your school around student improvement, teacher retention, and strategy to really improve overall school culture. Students whose families around the data part, the question that you had around data. We have found through several evaluations that students whose families participate in APPT show greater growth in math and reading than students whose families don’t participate. And so there is truly a big impact and improved learning outcomes for the students whose families are engaged in those type of meetings. Jessica Webster: Do you see that supporting families who have students with special needs or English as a second language or students who are maybe gifted and need enrichment? How did, how did those kind of subcategories look for the, for an ATTP model? Maria Paredes: I think that it’s really important, just like students, you know, we want to have everyone in the same room because relationships and the mutual support, it’s a big part of family learning. So, it is important that families, whether their children need much more support, or families of students who might be, special needs or gifted. Those are families who also want to be part of the, of the core group of the learning plan. And think of, uh, APTT meetings as professional development of family learning opportunities. So the idea that everybody’s learning together, but in addition to that, part of the coaching that is done with teachers to plan and to implement APTT is that differentiation that needs to take place, and that comes down to the activities that teachers model and how they talk through them, and how they help families together envision what this looks like. If the child needs to be challenged more because they’re advanced, or a child needs a couple of accommodations to be able to access the activity, so that they can eventually access the grade level implementation of that activity or practice of that activity. So I think it’s parents of all types benefit just from the socialization with each other, from the camaraderie with each other, and the support that, the networking that is, that sort of ends up being a team of learners. And I think that’s part of what’s important. Jessica Webster: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Nikevia Thomas: Wow, that’s nice. So I’m going to change up a little bit. So, Faith, you used to be a principal and now you are training others in APTT and supporting data driven conversations. So what are gems that you have learned and seen now that you wish you would have knew as a principal. Faith Burtamekh: Oh, so many things, but two in particular come to mind. And, you know, because as a school leader, so much falls on your shoulders, right? From the students and the staff and the families that you serve. And so I think my biggest tip would be to remember, or don’t underestimate the power of leading with your heart. Especially when it comes to the families, because they’re people too, right? The power of connection really allows you as a school leader to then think strategically, to then think about “how can I partner with families to continue to move our efforts forward?” And so being approachable, being visible, inviting conversation with families, uh, that’s, that’s leading with your heart. And I think that when you are a school leader who doesn’t forget that and you lead by example, then your teachers see that, that’s valuable as well and it doesn’t become this scary thing to connect with families. You know that I’ve learned some teachers are apprehensive, and so I think that’s really important as a school leaders to lead by example and don’t underestimate the power of leading with your heart first, um, and connecting with families. And then the second big thing that I always share this story, because as a new principal, you know, I always saw family engagement almost as a “nice to have” something that it wasn’t always, maybe an afterthought, rather than a requisite strategy for school improvement and student learning. I was so focused on being the principal who had the most parent volunteer hours. I wanted parents at our school volunteering, being present. And, you know, I did, I had 5,000 hours one year and I thought, gosh, “we’re really hitting it home with family engagement,” but we had great parent volunteers at our school. And so don’t forget that family engagement is critical to everything that you do at your school. It’s not something that we do out of compliance or as an afterthought, but it’s an essential component, uh, to building school culture, to building, uh, positive outcomes for students and helping families to get access to professional learning so that they become better advocates and support for their children at home. Jessica Webster: Yeah, that’s a really great point. And I think there’s a huge difference between traditional ways of involvement, right? And visibly being involved versus engagement was sometimes can be invisible. We don’t see how families engage because it’s happening outside the walls of our school building. Oftentimes, as we’re talking about families being involved versus engaged, one of the things in our line of work that we notice, and I’m sure you’ve had these conversations at WestEd as well, is that despite what schools feel is like a huge effort that they’re putting forth, right, to create these welcoming family programs, and they’re inviting parents into school, sometimes that participation and turnout tends to fall short of what our expectation is, that it feels like we put a whole lot of work in and we’re not getting the impact that we were hoping to get from that. So Maria, I know you wrote an article about this last year that talked about six strategies that schools can employ to increase that family attendance at those school events. Um, can you tell us a little bit about those strategies? Maria Paredes: Yeah, absolutely. So I’ll go over the six areas that were on that article that first of all, it’s a focus on families. What happens is when we plan family meetings in schools, we tend to focus on the accountability that the schools have toward Title I or other. So it’s almost like check off lists, right, of things that they have to do. They have to do open house, and then they have to do this, and then they have to do the fall festival. And then, you know, there is just a myriad of activities that schools do. And so one of the things that I, we help schools rethink is, how does, if I am a family member, how does it feel like this meeting was designed for me to learn? To take something away, to be able to, that that school is a place of learning and a place of development and a place of instruction. So I, we urge schools to, to really focus on making the meetings family centered and not so much school centered. So that’s one tip. So turn everything to be the, the game, uh, of for families, right? A game. The other thing is. Flyers and Facebook and all of that is, uh, is, is nice, but that’s not really what makes families feel like they are important. Like somebody’s thinking of them in particular, like the teacher really cares if the parent is there. And so, personal, uh, outreach. Personal connections with families is really what’s going to get families to attend. We often think of if you have a really good friend or somebody who you work with, and they invite you to something, even if you don’t want to attend. That person is so important to you that you’re not going to pass up on that wonderful invitation and that wonderful outreach, the time that that person is taking to connect with you directly. So personal, being personal about making sure families know that they count, that they are, that personally, the teacher and the school feel like they really matter. And so that personal touch. And sometimes, uh, as parents, we’re invited to school events and they feel like no matter what the event is, all the parents have lumped together in one room and the learning doesn’t feel like it’s, it’s me as a fourth grade parent being addressed and my needs being addressed. So it’s important to organize, differentiate it. meetings for families or learning opportunities for families. So that if it’s fourth grade math night, then I know I’m going to be in the room with other fourth grade parents and that we have something to, to offer and, and something to learn from each other. So differentiate when possible, because that makes a big difference. It feels like it is focused. on the learning needs of families. And also it’s focused on parents having that communication and collaboration with families of their grade level and of their classroom. Provide a yearly calendar. I have yet to find a school, over all these years, I have yet to find a school that has a published, intentional, pre thought, pre planned calendar of family learning for the entire year. That’s rare, and the reason for that is because some of the events are repeats from last year and some of the events that they’re just, uh, we right on the, on the spot. “Oh, we better do something next month” or we, or “it’s coming up, we need to, we need to have a gathering. We need to invite families.” But instead I think the core family learning meetings that will take place really need to be scheduled way ahead of time with an explanation of what’s the outcome? What are families going to learn? What are they going to take with them if they attend this meeting? So I think that would be not only add structure and add interest on the part of the parents, but that would really help the school focus on the parent activities that really truly are driven by learning and that are focused on, on children, on learning specifically. Jessica Webster: Yeah, and I’m thinking that the theme from those pieces as well as from how you describe the ATP model, the personalization, right? That it’s about the data from that grade level on that subject and that parents take something away that they can learn from and use with their families. And then the other thing that I heard you say through the themes is also that ability for them to connect with each other and talk to each other. Cause I think often, and Faith going back to that principal piece, like, you know, when you’d hold these dynamic speakers, you’d have speakers come in. I was a middle school principal. So we’d have speakers come in to talk about social media and safety. And, and then it was like, “thanks for coming,” you know? Laughter And I’m like, if we just would have built in 20 minutes to have people turn to each other and not ask questions, I mean, asking questions, the speaker is important, but like talk to each other, you all have ideas, how do you handle these things? And, and letting parents lead that would have been like, if I were to do it all over again, I would add that in. I think that’s a huge component that sometimes we miss in schools. Maria Paredes: I agree. The other thing that is really important is when we look at all the activities that the schools do over the course of the year, sometimes they’re up to 30. It’s not just activities, but other things that they do that where parents are a part of it and it’s just so much in that goes to, uh, schools always saying we can’t put one more thing on the plate, right? But for some reason, schools over time have not only added more activities for families, but have not necessarily done away with any. So it just keeps piling and sometimes there’s 20, 30 activities a year. And so I think the recommendation is really be intentional and focus on family learning and there are priorities, and there are, will be nice to have, but not necessarily a priority. Focus on the priority so that you can really pare down on the amount of work that is put on people who actually plan and facilitate these activities, which is just overwhelming for everybody. So less is more. Not only that, parents don’t have time to attend 30 meetings a year. And so you have to also respect that part of parents’ time and really be thoughtful about what you’re, what you’re planning for parents. But it doesn’t happen. Sometimes they have two events a week, like seriously, not many people have that kind of time available. Jessica Webster: And if you have multiple children, that’s 30 times 2 or 30 times 3 or 30 times 4 because you have them for all. Maria Paredes: Yeah, there’s not enough time in the year for anyone to, and the schools are overwhelmed, but they are not necessarily thinking that some things could just really be integrated, especially integrate, um, certain meetings that are about literacy development and what other things can you, um, pair it with so that you don’t have to have so many different types of reading or literacy or types of focus areas. Jessica Webster: Yeah. I love that. It’s thinking about it being smarter, not, you’re not working harder. You’re working smarter. Maria Paredes: I always say work smarter and go deeper. Jessica Webster: Yes. I love it. Absolutely. Nikevia Thomas: Yes I think with all, with 30 different activities, you’re just scratching the surface. Yeah. Yeah. So if a district is interested in implementing APTT, how can they get involved? Faith Burtamekh: They can reach out to us on our website at wested.org and we can you know, have a conversation with them and see where they’re at in their family engagement journey and then discuss, you know, different ways for them to start. Sometimes, you know, they’re not ready quite yet for the full academic peer teacher team model and so there are services that we have to help them begin to shift mindset around how they engage with families. Um, we call it our five essentials. And so there, that kind of paves the way for when they are ready in a year to be able to, um, you know, implement APT with sustainable practices. Jessica Webster: Excellent.Thank you for that. So as we wrap up, we have a final question we ask all our guests. From your perspectives and Maria we’ll start with you. If a school wants to adopt their current practices to engage and empower families as true partners at the table. What’s the first step? I’m thinking about Faith’s Five Essentials. Like, what is the first step that a school can start to think of? What’s one thing a school could do today to change their practices to better engage families? Maria Paredes: I think the first thing is, there are two things, the first is to address school culture. Are, are teachers and, uh, and other staff in the school ready for this, right? Are they, do they feel a true, are they truly invested in their communities, in their families, uh, in their neighborhoods, right? And really address that so that that’s the, the, the beginning of where people can, can grow in terms of that practice, best practices in family engagement. And I think the second thing is to be very, very thoughtful in creating a communication plan with family. What happens is that you can build anything on effective communication, on regular communication. Okay. So that parents feel like they have a thread going throughout the school year of what’s happening in the classroom. What is the instruction? What are the goals for this month? Right? And a little bit of, this is how parents can support learning. So their parents need to know what’s happening in the classroom with learning and instruction and assessment, but they also want to know what’s happening in the school as a whole. So learning the communication with families in a way that feels, that flows naturally, but that keeps families feeling like they have a really good idea of what’s being taught in the classroom at that point in time. Because parents are very smart people with lots of experience and they can, they can surmise what they are going to be putting into their conversations with their kids. “What do I bring up? What do we talk about during dinner, right?” They have a strong feeling because they, because teachers are communicating regularly, clearly, and inviting them to be part of that ongoing conversation. But it’s really important that there is a plan so that teachers say, okay, if I’m going to send a really good message to my families. Maybe I want to do it every two weeks because that feels doable and it’s not necessarily about overwhelming the teachers, but it’s about lessening the guessing game that parents are in because parents don’t really have a, a view into the classroom, but I think that they should have the information they need in a way that feels right. Like parents are partners. And I think upon that communication, you can build other more formidable best practices, but without communication, you have to struggle to gain the trust of families. Faith Burtamekh: I say for more a very easy, practical approach to getting started is maybe to go back to those six strategies that Maria mentioned today. So, for example, a focus on families. So take an or making it personal organizing an event an event differently. So it could be as simple as revisiting how you host open house, right? Just simple little things by thinking about how we’re going to welcome families into the space, a name tag, a team building activity, and the focus of open houses on getting to know families as the people that they are versus let’s give them all this information and all these packets and tell them about this curriculum. That doesn’t make any sense to them, but is there a focus on building relationships and truly getting to know. Maybe one thing about each parent in your classroom, that’s a personal thing, rather than, you know, in their role as they’re a parent to a child in your classroom. Uh, so I would say start with maybe those six strategies and think about what do you currently do to engage families and how can you just shift the current event that you do just a little bit so that you can go, you know, Deeper and and work smarter. Jessica Webster: I love that. I always think about, you know, when you go to that open house scenario and you’re like, do I know anybody else in the room even as another parent? And what if you’re a new parent to the community? Or what if you’re working and you’re not able to go to PTA? You don’t know all the families in the room and how nice that would be to do. Something to build your community as a, as a classroom with your families. Um, that wouldn’t take too long. That would be amazing. I’ve never seen that. I think that’s a great idea. Faith Burtamekh: I always tell teachers to, to, uh, think about like, it’s my job to get to know, you know, families on the night of APT, but it’s also your job as a family member to walk away with new, three new friends, right? So you, it’s your job to meet three new people that now become part of your support system. Maria Paredes: I was thinking that I was thinking that if open house would function in the way that faith explained, it would almost have the feeling of the first day of school, right? Yes. Yes. I’m going to meet my classroom team, my peers, right? And walk away with new friends, but also just the sense of belonging. Yes. I belong to a team. I’m part of this classroom community and I, I have a place, uh, with the teacher and with the other parents. That would feel So fulfilling for us. We’re a family. Jessica Webster: Wow. Imagine how that changes the whole climate and culture. Quick, quick community builder. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Oh my gosh. What a, what a good way to end our session today with some good takeaways. I love it. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your wealth of knowledge. Oh, it’s been amazing. Makes me want to dive back into a school. Laughter Faith Burtamekh: I know when you see great teachers, you know, connecting families. I, I, I want to go back. Jessica Webster: I know. Faith Burtamekh: And do it all over again, too. Jessica Webster: I know. Faith Burtamekh: For sure. I know. Jessica Webster: Although I love my job too. Yeah. Maria Paredes: It’s important to point out that there are so many people out there doing things really well. Yes. Yeah. We, we talked a lot about how there are some, there’s a ways to go, right? But I always, I just want to give a shout out to all of those teachers who innately feel that families are, are really, truly important to the whole goal of taking the kids to the end successfully. Jessica Webster: Yes yes. Maria Paredes: Right? So there are just so many people doing the right thing out there. Jessica Webster: I agree with you. And are eager to do new things too. You know? Mm hmm. Like try new things too, which is what, what keeps us alive and thriving. So yeah, thank you for that sentiment. That’s amazing. Oh, that’s awesome. Nikevia Thomas: Thank you so much. Thank you both. Thank you for this lovely conversation. Jessica Webster: We appreciate it. And to our listeners, thank you for sharing a cup of conversation with us. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. So until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing and don’t forget to follow us on X at CAFE_MAEC.

Nikevia Thomas: Hello everybody, this is Nikevia and Jessica from MAEC’s CAFE, and you’re listening to the Corner CAFE Podcast. Families, schools, and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So let’s get started. Welcome back to another episode of the Corner CAFE Podcast. Today, we have a true trailblazer in the realm of family engagement. Joining us is Young-chan Han, president of MELLFIN, which stands for the Maryland English Language Learning Family Involvement Network. Young-chan immigrated to the United States from Korea in 1973 and has over 25 years of experience in language access, family engagement, and leadership development. She has worked tirelessly to empower and equip immigrant families and English learners and advocates for linguistically and economically challenged families. Formerly Young-chan was on the team at MAEC where she was lead author for the publications “Lessons Learned: A Resource Guide to Support AAPI Students” and “Building Leaders: An Educator’s Guide to Family Leadership.” We are so, so happy to have you here with us. Young-chan, welcome. Young-chan Han: Thank you for having me. For the first time I heard that my name now is, what is it? Trailer? Nikevia Thomas: Trailblazer. Young-chan Han: Wow, I’m really impressed. Nikevia Thomas: Your reputation precedes you, especially here at, uh, at CAFE. Your reputation really precedes you. Jessica Webster: Absolutely. Um, it’s an honor to have you on the show. Your journey in family engagement and equity is truly compelling. So can you share a bit about what led you to your decision? Passion for focusing on equity and equitable family engagement and how these ideas relate to you. Young-chan Han: Yes. Thank you for that question. Um, my story is a story of many immigrants in the U.S. I was 12 years old when we migrated to the U.S. from South Korea. When our family first arrived, my mom enrolled me as a sixth grade student. The next time she came to school was for my high school graduation. She cared deeply about our education and future. But her involvement in our education was limited to ensuring that we had food to eat, a place to sleep, and that we attended school regularly, which we did. My mom never attended school events or parent teacher conferences, as she worked 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week. She signed many forms and papers the school sent, but never knew what they were. Never questioned what she was signing. My mom was a limited English speaking immigrant until she passed away. She never had the opportunity to learn. She was what I call a cultural survivor. Jessica Webster: Mm hmm. Young-chan Han: From a young age, I wanted to help people around me who did not have a voice, like my mom. Seeing my mom working hard to provide the best opportunities for us, led to my passion for equity and equitable family engagement in education. So, equitable family engagement is a key to education equity. Equity means all families can access the resources and support they need that meet their specific needs. Equitable family engagement to me is an ongoing positive relationship between school staff and families where family engagement practices are tailored to meet the specific needs of a diverse population. Language access, interpreters, and translated documents is provided for all school related meetings. Technology, transportation, and childcare for families in need are also provided. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Wow. Young-chan. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Um, can we talk a little bit more about, uh, a publication of yours, uh, in 2012, you authored “Stages of Immigrant Parent Involvement: Survivors to Leaders Framework”, which is part of the U.S. Department of Education’s Newcomer Toolkit. Could you guide us through the stages of immigrant family parent involvement in education? Young-chan Han: Sure. You know, the stages of immigrant parent involvement is not time sensitive. I think what happened 10, 20, 30 years ago of how we supported our immigrants is the same using the stages of immigrant parent involvement. So, stages of immigrant parent involvement, it illustrates the progression of learning and its adaptive capacity to navigate American schools. And there are four stages. Survivors, Learner, Connector, and Leader. Understanding the stages can help schools develop effective strategies and support for immigrant families. Cultural Survivors have little or no knowledge about American education or services and resources available. Survivors may be recently arrived immigrants. Many will be concerned about securing food and shelter and may not have much time to learn about and navigate the U.S. school system. The next stage is Cultural Learners. Cultural Learners are more comfortable than Cultural Survivors with the new school culture and school system and learn about school resources and support such as before or after school tutoring programs, language support, how to read report card, parent teacher conferences. The next stage, Cultural Connectors, have a better understanding of how schools operate and can navigate schools comfortably. They are aware of the resources and support available for students and families and become familiar with educational terminology, policies, and procedures. Cultural Connectors help Survivors and Learners to connect with resources and opportunities. Finally, Cultural Leaders. They actively engage in school and community. They possess knowledge and skills to the level of advocacy and become the voice of parents in other stages. Not everyone goes through these stages. Some parents remain at the Cultural Survivor and Learner stage if their exposure to American schools and culture is minimal due to working long hours, having multiple jobs, and no opportunities to learn English. We cannot assume that an immigrant parent who has lived in the U.S. for 10, 20, or 30 years can speak English and can navigate the American school system. Jessica Webster: And I wonder then, too, if the reverse is true for that. So, if we have families that are coming over, they might come and not be in a survivor mode, correct? They may be somewhere else on the, on the chart. Young-chan Han: Absolutely. Right. Yeah. But I guess when they first arrived though, we, unless they are so familiar with American ways of doing things, they are survival moments. Sure. So, I mean, I can speak English, but when I come, the school system is so different and I would not know what to do, so at that moment, I feel like I am surviving this new, new world, new, new education system. So, but good point, Jessica. Jessica Webster: That makes perfect sense. How, how can schools leverage this knowledge and understanding of that experience to better serve and support their families? Young-chan Han: Good question. The stages provide insights into the lives of immigrant families and help tailor school practices and services to meet the unique needs of immigrant families. The stages affirm that one size does not fit all, and parents in different stages need differentiated support. For Cultural Survivors and Learners, completing the many school forms on the first day of school is daunting task, right? This is the first week of school, so I can just imagine how all of our families are feeling. In one school with a high Hispanic population, the family liaison invited Hispanic families to bring their forms to school during the first two days of school. With the district’s support, many Spanish speaking interpreters supported the initiative, so all 39 Hispanic families brought their blank forms, and as the parents share their information interpreters completed the forms. And all papers were submitted that day. Jessica Webster: Oh, amazing. Yes. It’s like a principal’s dream. Young-chan Han: Yeah, it’s absolutely. The form filling initiative was the beginning of the annual form filling days, and today, in the online world, the same support is provided by using computers to complete the forms in person. So, this elementary school tailored. It’s outreach to meet the basic needs of immigrant families. When we understand the stages, we can more specifically identify families needs and be intentional about how we reach families to meet their needs. Jessica Webster: Yeah, that’s a wonderful example. Nikevia Thomas: That’s great. That’s wonderful. Sounds like, you know, adaptability all around and adaptability is needed in creating effective family school partnerships. One of the ideas we promote through CAFE is that family engagement is more than communication about what is happening in school. And in order to engage families of English Learners, we really have to think of ways to build the capacity of families to gain the knowledge and skills to navigate the U.S. school system. So, how can schools support families in order to build their capacity and agency in our communities? Young-chan Han: Good question. Long question, but good question. To support families of English Learners and help them gain knowledge, skills, and confidence, engagement practices can focus on meeting the needs of families in different stages. I go back to the stages. I want to share an exemplary equitable family engagement practice at a middle school that provided intentional outreach to support English learner families. So, at the beginning of the school year, I have a lot of beginning of the school year examples, schools traditionally host a back to school night. Parents are invited to school and meet with children’s teachers. So, at the back to school night, there were 10 Korean parents who needed language support, and all 10 parents were paired with an interpreter for the evening. This was important since in middle school, parents are moving from classroom to classroom. So having an interpreter assigned to each parent meant that ESL parents would understand the information shared by all teachers. Following the back to school event, the principal stayed and met with these families separately and explained school rules and regulations. She was an amazing principal. This one time, Back to School meeting led to other engagement opportunities for English Learning families to participate and learn about topics such as grade promotion, parent teacher conferences, and more. So, families started to feel more comfortable, they experienced the school’s intentional outreach to engage English Learning families. School leaders and teachers were no longer strangers to families, and they had established themselves as people that families could trust. The school’s intentional outreach to English Learning families built families confidence to advocate and speak up for their children’s success. So you can imagine for the rest of the school year, there, there were a lot of interactions, um, taking place between school and homes of our immigrant families. Jessica Webster: Yeah, so the first message you’re hearing is ‘I see you, we value you, we want to hear from you, we want you to be part of our community.’ That sets the foundation for all to come, just from right from that first meeting. Young-chan Han: Yeah. I see you, I hear you, I know you. Yes. Jessica Webster: Yeah. That’s so powerful. That’s amazing. Yeah. And you’re right about that ability then to have confidence, that agency to participate then, right? That really does lend a confidence. Nikevia Thomas: Mhm Young-chan Han: Yeah. Jessica Webster: So, you played a pivotal role in creating MAEC publication called “Building Leaders: An Educators Guide to Family Leadership,” which highlights family leadership focusing on building relationships, knowledge and skills, building confidence and advocacy. Can you give us some insights into how schools can successfully create and sustain these elements? Young-chan Han: Sure. Yes, that was one of my favorite project and loved every minute working with over 40 publication contributors. Jessica Webster: Wow. Young-chan Han: Representing educators, community leaders and parents and my hat is off to you, to MAEC, for publishing this essential guide to building family leaders. So this publication outlines specific actions that schools and districts can take to include four essential components in their equitable family engagement practices. I will highlight four actions that schools or districts can use to successfully create and sustain these elements. First action, schools or districts should carefully consider who key stakeholders are, and bring these key stakeholders together to identify student and family needs. Stakeholders should include school staff, representing diverse areas of expertise, family members, students, and community members. Second, make equitable family engagement a priority in the school improvement plan. If your school has parent liaisons involve them in decision making. Involve cultural connectors and leaders to be part of the decision making process too. That’s ‘confidence’ and ‘advocacy’ from our publication. Third, ask parents for input on the best time to meet, preferred meeting locations, child care and language support. A survey, maybe a short survey in multiple languages. Using their feedback, invite parents to school events at a time that is convenient for them and host an event where families feel comfortable. That’s building relationships and sharing knowledge. So, fourth, provide language access. Trained interpreters and translated documents are essential support for families with limited English. Without the language support, there really is no two way communication. You can read more in the Building Leaders publication on the MAEC website. It’s free to download at www.maec.org. Nikevia Thomas: Thank you. Thank you so much, Young Chan, for sharing. So, uh, applying those elements can really create a strong foundation for family engagement. But while relationship building and skill development are widely understood by, by school built schools, building family advocacy might seem daunting. So, can you offer advice for integrating advocacy into family engagement practices? Young-chan Han: Yeah, this, this really made me think about what that means. You know, and taking to the next level of, you know, advocacy can be a challenge. I guess foremost, from the initial planning of the family engagement practices family voices representing diverse populations must be an integral part of the planning process. Provide a space for families to advocate for how schools can engage all families. I have a few suggestions that elevate family voices in school practices. Invite parents representing a diverse populations to teachers meetings, faculty meetings, and ask parents to share their culture with educators so the educators can learn about diverse cultures represented in school community. Invite families to school improvement team meetings to share about families needs and aspirations. This builds the capacity of educators to better understand students and families. And school improvement team must include parents as a member of a school improvement team. That sounded a little weird. Always have a parent voice. Uh, and so I have 1 more when planning family engagement practices both educators and families are involved in planning. And to learn more, check out MAEC’s Educator’s Guide to Family Leadership, which includes 12 examples of family leadership program profiles that integrate all four essential components, including advocacy. Jessica Webster: Yeah so I keep hearing the word planning together, right? The co-creation, like not doing it for people, doing it with together. We do it with each other. Yeah, that’s valuable advice for making advocacy an integral part of family engagement. So let’s shift our focus to a critical topic if we don’t mind, mental health and wellness. So Asian American and Pacific Islanders have one of the lowest help seeking rates for mental health services of any racial or ethnic group, and we’re working with some schools that are are seeing similar patterns emerging. Has this been something you’ve seen in your work, and what advice would you have for practitioners who want to partner with AAPI families in order to support students mental health and well being? Young-chan Han: Yeah, that’s a really good question. You know, the AAPI community represents so many different cultures. Jessica Webster: Yes. Young-chan Han: Many languages and many voices. My advice for practitioners seeking to partner with AAPI families to support mental health and wellness, I thought about a couple things. First, learn about the AAPI community. How well do you know your AAPI families, and have you participated in AAPI community activities in your district or state, or connected with AAPI families and leaders to build relationships? Visit where AAPI families congregate, including places of worship, worship language schools and community events, and meet the families. Also, examine your organization’s leadership. How diverse is your leadership team? Does your team represent the families you support or you want to support? If your organization wants to support AAPI families, your staff and decision makers should include AAPI members. A good example, my daughter volunteered at a Head Start preschool years ago, and there was one little Asian girl who had hardly said anything before she met my daughter. When they met, this little girl came up to my daughter. And with a smile on her face said, ‘you look like me.’ She loved to talk after then. She just needed someone who looked like her to feel comfortable in her space. Does your organization, staff, and leaders reflect the population you want to support? Another advice, this is, should be a fairly easy one, but a lot of times we forget to do, which is do community mapping of AAPI organizations that support student mental health and wellness. This can include your immediate community, your district, bordering states, or throughout the country. Learn about others work and make connections with the organization’s leaders and staff so you can learn about AAPI families needs and available resources to support the families. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Thank you for that, Young-chan. Young-chan Han: I’ll never forget the story about the little girl. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah, I don’t think we will either. Well, those are some great ways to break down barriers to mental health support. And I really appreciate you sharing that with us. And I would like to move on to your work with MELLFIN. As the board president of MELLFIN, which again stands for the Maryland English Language Learning Family Involvement Network, can you tell us the history of MELLFIN and some of the work you all are doing to support English Language Learning family engagement? Young-chan Han: Sure. This is a question that I was so excited to respond. So a brief history. In 2001, a group of seven like minded, passionate educators from seven local school systems in Maryland, um, came together to discuss the need for a collaborative body that could share effective strategies, to meet the needs of Maryland’s at the time, increasingly diverse and growing immigrant population. The seven founding members represented district title III coordinators, ESOL family outreach specialist, and an equity specialist, and I was one of them. Together the group established a nonprofit networking organization, MELLFIN, that shares information and resources to support immigrant families. MELLFIN equip and empower educators and community members by providing platforms and networking opportunities, including MELLFIN’s annual conference and virtual workshops for family facing professionals. These opportunities bring educators, families, community leaders, and students to learn from each other and share culturally responsive learning experiences. equitable family engagement practices that can be incorporated into school districts and schools. MELLFIN is planning a statewide immigrant parent leadership program. I’ll say that again. MELLFIN is planning a statewide immigrant parent leadership program to build a community of immigrant leaders to gain knowledge and skills and advocate for our students and families. As we reach out to school districts, we look forward to engaging educators, community members, and families in this initiative. As participants, presenters and facilitators, I might call on you guys to also also for schools and districts, MELLFIN provides our tailored training and workshops to build the capacity of educators to serve. Support equitable family engagement practices. I also want to highlight our student interns work. This really excites me. MELLFIN is on Instagram thanks to MELLFIN interns. Created by students for students. MELLFIN interns are spearheading video projects to support students and educators, and we welcome students to join us for our internship opportunities. I’ll share a little more about that for the next time at our last meeting with interns. One of the interns asked if she can start a MELLFIN club at her school. Nikevia Thomas: Oh wow. Young-chan Han: I know. It warmed my heart. I’m getting teary. And we plan to follow up. What an amazing idea. Can you, I mean, I’m getting goosebumps. So anyway, these are some of the work we are doing to support English Learners and immigrant families. Jessica Webster: Well, I know, I, I always say there’s no better endorsement than when a student says, ‘can we do this again?’or ‘can, can I bring this’ or ‘can I share it? It’s so amazing. I want to share it with others.’ And you know, you’ve, you know, you’re doing something good, you know? Young-chan Han: Yeah. And to hear, to imagine if all these schools have MELLFIN Club. Jessica Webster: Yeah! Young-chan Han: Oh, we are together. Okay, we’ll work on that together. *Laughter* Jessica Webster: This is amazing. So if, as an educator or a family, how can I find out more about the organization and become involved in it? Young-chan Han: Yeah, MELLFIN, you know, yes, definitely students we just talked about. MELLFIN welcomes educators, families, students, and community members to support our initiatives. Those who are interested in being involved in MELLFIN should also attend our annual conference. This May, we hosted our 18th annual conference, brought together over 500 educators, community leaders, and parents for professional learning and networking opportunities. Just a reminder, our very first annual conference, we had 70 people. So, you don’t, yeah, you don’t want to miss the 19th annual conference in May 2024. So, to prepare for the conference, we have conference planning committees where educators, community members, families, and students can be involved. So, serving as a committee member is a great way to learn about MELLFIN work and network with people. People passionate about English Learners and immigrant family engagement. More information about volunteering opportunities will be shared at our website as we get closer to the end of this year. Also, every year since 2014, MELLFIN has awarded annual scholarships and to date we have awarded to over 50 students who are current or former ESOL students. We need educators and community leaders to share the scholarship information and encourage current or former ESL students to apply for the scholarship information will also be available on our website. I guess I could say www.mellfin.org. And as part of the interns project, we are collecting videos from former ESOL students and educators to share their advice to students to prepare for college or post secondary opportunities and also advice to educators to better connect with ESOL students and immigrant families. So educators and former ESOL students can submit a 60 second or less video to MELLFIN, giving response to these advices that we raised in a question, their message can empower and equip students and educators. And these videos will be shared on MELLFIN social media. Currently, we receive five videos and we look forward to more. Um, yeah, finally, keep up with MELLFIN on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn, or visit the MELLFIN  website for resources, announcements, and upcoming events. Jessica Webster: And I’m assuming it would be okay for educators that are not just from Maryland to participate in the work that you’re doing. Young-chan Han: Oh, absolutely. Yes. I have a, um, assistant principal from Virginia wanting to do that, she attended our conference and I sent it to a lot of people and she was one of them says, ‘oh, yeah, I want to do that. I can do that.’ And we received, like, from counselors and, and two students I, you know, we’re waiting for more students to give their feedback, their videos, what advice that they have for students for preparing for college. Those are just gold mine. You know, I, I’m looking forward to what our interns are going to do with all those videos. Stay tuned. Jessica Webster: Yeah. Nikevia Thomas: I can’t wait to see it lovely, a lovely tapestry. It’s going to be wonderful. I can see it. Thank you so much Young-chan. As, as we wrap up, I have a, we have a final question and this is a question that we ask all our guests. If a school wanted to adapt its current practices to engage and empower families as true partners at the table. What should they–where should they–begin and what’s one thing that people can do today to start building relationships of trust between families and educators? Young-chan Han: I had to read that question many times, but thanks for saying that, uh, it, you know, it almost sounds like the answer to the second question, or the second question is the answer to the first question. Nikevia Thomas: Something. Yeah. So, but this is what I have. So, where should the school begin and what can people do to building relationships of trust? Um, I want to pull out an excerpt from the Building Leaders guide, which provides an answer to the question. In quote, “fostering trusting relationships with families is the foundation of all family engagement practices.” Am I done with this question? *Laughter* Jessica Webster: Hard stop, that’s it. *Laughter* Young-chan Han: Okay, I can go on. I’ll just say a couple things, okay? Where should the school begin, right? The foundation. Building trusting relationships with families. So strong positive relationships between families and educators are necessary for home-school partnerships that yield true partners at the table. I’ll just share one example. Each year, a kindergarten teacher starts the school year with home visits to introduce himself to the families and to get to know the families better. That’s a strong home-school relationship that’s established at the beginning of the school year and continues for the school year. If the kindergarten teachers’ approach is not an exception, but a norm, that can become a lifeline of continued trusting relationships between families and educators. Yes, it takes time and it takes energy, but it yields true partnership. Following the kindergarten teacher’s footsteps is one thing that people can do today to begin building relationships of trust between families and educators. Nikevia Thomas: Mmm yes. Jessica Webster: Yes I love that. It’s wonderful advice. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today. Young-chan Han: Oh, I really enjoyed our time together. You guys had a great questions and, and really I had to reflect on a lot of the, the responses that I wanted to share. Yeah. But you know, I keep getting all these memories, like I, the memories coming back of the work that I did when I first started it. I knew nothing. So, like, I, I knew nothing. I was a children’s ministry director and then I was now at a school doing 12 hours, um, in a family engagement outreach. I’m telling you the next six years, it was the best, best time of my life. I connected with so many immigrant families. I could say that behind me, there are 5,000 immigrant families that I, I worked with and just working with them just was so exhilarating and seeing these families go from survivors to leaders and advocating and it’s just, it’s just work that I just will always remember. So thank you for helping me unearth all the things that were done. Not all the things, but some of the things. It just came. And I have to admit, some of these activities and things that we did, like, it’s really made me teary. Like, ‘Oh, I remember that, I remember that.’ Nikevia Thomas: It’s an honor, uh, Young-chan, to speak with you and it’s, it’s, it’s an honor to have this time with you. And, and I’m sure that our, our listeners are going to find your ideas and insights valuable and they too will think that you’re a trailblazer. *Laughter* Young-chan Han: I have to tell my family. I’m going to have to text my family. ‘Hey, guess what my nickname is?’ *Laughter* Jessica Webster: That’s it from here on out. Young-chan Han: But maybe, you know, I don’t know if you want to stop recording, but I do want to share one thing that I didn’t add that I wanted to add. I mean, if you want to record it, it’s fine. So when we did the, uh, phone filling night, Um, I actually attended most of them that other schools did. There was one parent that had children, you know, age 3 to 17 but she only brought the information for the elementary school children. But then in conversation with her, she asked, ‘Can my 17 year old go to school?’ I’m like, ‘Absolutely.’ ‘Yeah, but she just had a baby.’ ‘Absolutely, she can go to school because there are schools where they have child care.’ And, you know, so we worked that out right away. I know you can’t see my goosebumps, but and then we talk more and she says, ‘Oh, I have a three year old son. Is there a school for him?’ ‘Absolutely.’ So we looked at the, um, Head Start programs and, you know, got her in, you know, uh, the application filled out. So she came to do two of her students—her children’s form filling and ended up having her older sister attend a school and the three year old also be able to attend preschool. So, you know, you just never know where the support for immigrant families is going to land you. And, you know, so continue to do what you do to remember that. Our immigrant families are greatest assets, right? And supporting them will support their children, their families. So let’s keep on doing what we’re doing. But I just wanted to share that with you guys. Jessica Webster: Thank you for that. Nikevia Thomas: Oh, thanks so much, Young-chan. Jessica Webster: It just reminds me too, or reinforces that power of having that conversation because if you don’t bring people in organically, those conversations may never happen. Young-chan Han: Absolutely. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah. Jessica Webster: And then you’ve now just made all these extra connections for someone and provided extra support that you’re right, has long lasting impact. Yeah. Yeah. Young-chan Han: My nickname, my nickname is another nickname is Cultural Connector. Jessica Webster: Cultural Connector. That’s right. That’s right. I love it. Oh, thank you. Thank you for that. Young-chan Han: Oh, you’re welcome. I really enjoyed it. Jessica Webster: Yeah, we did too. And to our listeners, thank you for sharing a cup of conversation with us. And we hope that you’ve enjoyed the conversation today. Until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing. And don’t forget to follow us on X at CAFE_MAEC. ​

Nikevia Thomas: Hello everybody, this is Nikevia and Jessica from MAEC’s CAFE and you’re listening to the Corner CAFE Podcast. Families, schools, and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So let’s get started. Jessica Webster: Joining us today is Jenny Portillo-Nacu, Senior Education Equity Specialist at MAEC in our Center for Education Equity Division. With over a decade of experience as an elementary school educator and a background in curriculum development and instructional practices, Jenny brings a wealth of expertise to the table. She is committed to improving instructional practices, fostering student engagement, and promoting family and community involvement to create inclusive learning environments. We are particularly excited to delve into Jenny’s work with English Learners and her contributions to MAEC’s 21st Century Learning at Home publication. Welcome, Jenny, and thank you for being here with us today. Jenny Portillo-Nacu: Thanks for having me. It’s such a pleasure always to get to talk to you. Nikevia Thomas: Yes. Thank you, Jenny. So can you tell us a little about what led to your passion for focusing on equity and equitable family engagement in education? And how do these two ideas relate to you? Jenny Portillo-Nacu: I think part of it first is my own personal story. So I’m a first generation everything in this country. My parents immigrated from Mexico and Guatemala in the eighties and so I am the first gen to make it to high school, college, graduate, everything because my parents only got us up to a sixth-grade education in their home countries. And seeing what involvement looked like for them as they were navigating a new country, a completely different school system, and language growing up, it was definitely clear to me that a lot of times, like my parents were labeled as like those parents that don’t spend enough time in the building, and how could they? They tried to be there, but working schedules, language barriers, everything made it really hard. And I would see the differences that there were in the way that my family and those of friends who were like me were able to engage, and then I would look at my peers who were born and bred here in the United States, had, white middle-class upbringing and their families were always present, right? And so it was just from the very beginning. It was very clear to me that there were differences there in the different ways that families can engage, and it only became clear to me once I became a teacher, what systems actually contribute to that. So when I first started teaching, I was at a dual language immersion school. I was a bilingual educator in Fort Worth, Texas, working with students who very much had similar backgrounds to me. Most of them were either first gen or recent arrivals to the country and likewise, their families also could only engage with the school in certain ways. But the differences were that a lot of the school staff actually reflected the community. They were from similar backgrounds, spoke the same languages. We were in a predominantly Latino community, so they were able to engage at a much higher level and I started realizing that, families couldn’t always engage in the ways that the school wanted, like being present for academic nights or for PTA-type things, but they engage in a variety of other ways, whether it was contributing food or artifacts, or even labor hours to the school in different projects that they would be conducting, or whether it was cheering on our kids at their softball or football games or soccer games. Because we had teams there at the schools, like families found ways to make sure that their children knew that they were present, and that got their foot in the door enough that we were able to bridge communication with them around academics, right? But I realized how much of that came down to individual teacher effort, and I luckily had other teachers around me, veteran teachers, who’ve been doing this much longer than I did, who emphasized to me the importance of being present as a teacher. I would see my colleagues go to kids’ birthday parties and baptisms and quinceañeras. So I learned that’s what good family engagement looks like. But then I’ve gone to other schools since then, where the family engagement practices really varied greatly, and there were cultural mismatches between the backgrounds of teachers and students that created some barriers there. So all in all the experiences of my own and not feeling like my family was able to connect that much to school and then my experiences in seeing families, much like mine. Being able to do it really got me thinking about the importance of having a culturally responsive approach to family engagement, because if we apply a one size fits all sort of model of how we expect families to engage of course, there are going to be some families that doesn’t work for. Whether if it’s families like my own because of language issues, or because they’re unfamiliar with how to navigate the school system, or truly even for families who aren’t of families of Multilingual Learner, English Learner students that just have schedules that won’t allow for certain things. It really got me thinking about that, the fact that schools need to be more adaptive in the way that they ask families to engage so that there’s more involvement across the board, and it doesn’t become certain parents having more voice than others, because ultimately every family cares about their child’s education and making sure that they’re whole and developed people. And so the onus is on schools to make sure that they’re adapting and honoring the different ways families can engage, just like those families in my early years of teaching I saw engage in different ways. Jessica Webster: Yeah, so you hit on a few of these things as you were talking about your own background and experiences, and I’ve had the pleasure of attending a few of your presentations. So I’ve heard you speak. to other educators a lot about the importance of holding some of those core beliefs about family engagement in order to make sure that it becomes an equitable practice for us. Can you expand on some of those core beliefs for us and why they might matter? Jenny Portillo-Nacu: I’d love to take credit for those core beliefs. A lot of them really come from Anne Henderson’s work, but I’ve also, seen them enacted in schools, basically, the ideas are that this fundamental belief that all parents have dreams for their kids and want the best for them. That’s a core belief that we have to have if we’re really serious about having all families be able to engage at high levels, which is what to me, equitable family engagement looks like. All parents do have, and family members, and caregivers have, the capacity to support their children’s learning. Now, it doesn’t mean everyone’s going to be able to do it in the same ways, but everyone has something that they value that they can contribute to their child’s learning. Families, parents, and school staff need to be equal partners. A lot of times what happens is that decisions are made at the school level, and then we either ask families for their feedback, but ultimately, we know the decision has already been made, or we ask for their input, but ultimately, we still weigh more heavily with the school is going to do rather than really taking family input. So we need to really have that belief that there’s equal partnership and power sharing, which is a scary place to be as a school. It’s scary to say, ‘Hey, family, you’re going to have some power-sharing ability here and decision-making power.’ And so it’s really important that there be some capacity building at the school level around what does it mean to power share with families, right? Because it doesn’t mean that a family is going to walk in and suddenly start calling all the shots, but it means that there’s going to be some actual dialogue and shared decision-making. Another core belief is that really the responsibility for building the partnership between home and school rests primarily with the school staff, especially with school leaders. And I think that. It’s really important to maintain that because if we think that families should be coming to us, then we’re missing the point, right? A lot of times we forget that there’s an inherent power dynamic between schools and families where the school is on a slightly higher footing, there’s an assumed expertise there that we think families don’t always have. There’s assumed abilities that the school has in influencing decisions that families don’t have. The school has to make it clear that one, they’re up for the partnership and power sharing, and that they’re willing to put some real commitment behind those words by creating systems that are going to actively invite families in. The reason why these core beliefs are really so important is because if we really uphold them, we can avoid a lot of harmful biases that can create some unintentional barriers for families, particularly those of historically marginalized backgrounds. And so one example to consider is like when I come to this phrase of ‘Those parents don’t care.’ That’s something I heard a lot of teaching colleagues of mine say over the different schools I’ve worked in over the years and it’s coded language. Who do we mean when we say those parents, right? And often, unfortunately, it means the parents of students from marginalized backgrounds because they have other barriers that make it hard for them to participate in school and want to. But if you hold these core beliefs, it stops you from going into this harmful sort of biased thinking because it’s not those parents don’t care and start. Instead, you start to assume this parent does care. How do I support them so that they can be here? How do I help their learning? So they know how to best support their child. How do I learn from them so I can support their child? And so that’s why these core beliefs are really critical because they really can impact our mindsets about families and what they’re capable of. And then, in turn, the actions that we take to engage them. Jessica Webster: Yeah. Thank you for that. Some powerful thoughts. Nikevia Thomas: Yeah, it’s very powerful, Jenny. It’s very powerful. Let’s talk a bit about families of English Learners. What does equitable family engagement look like for families of English Learners? And is English Learner the best terminology to use? Jenny Portillo-Nacu: That’s a really great question. The second one. So there’s been a big shift in the last couple of years to using two other terms instead of English Learner. One has been Multilingual Language Learners. So instead of an L, you have an MLL. Another of that’s come out of the research, particularly from Ofelia García, who’s a very renowned linguist and who’s done a lot of work in the field. Is Emergent Bilingual or Emergent Multilingual and the emphasis on using these latter second terms is that it’s asset based, right? Instead of focusing on a student as being deficient in English, because legally, there’s still Limited English Proficiency is one of the terms used by the federal government, right? To talk about students who are acquiring a second or second or et cetera language, but it really focuses on what the student doesn’t currently have instead of acknowledging, no, the student already has a language that’s fully developed, and we’re working on acquiring a second, a third et cetera. And so their multilingualism or their bilingualism is emerging in them along a continuum. It’s not something they don’t have. And suddenly they have right and Multilingual Learners works in that same way as well. That terminology is being picked up more and more by school systems. For example, the state of New Jersey is. Working on rewriting some of their policies related to Multilingual Learners. And one of the things they’re doing is codifying that term in their state policies around the student group. Now, interestingly, though, the federal government will still continue to use English Language Learner, Limited English Proficiency, but, the use of the names really matters because it can influence policy. If your focus is no longer just on language acquisition you’re going to make investments and policy that supports acquisition of multiple languages and not the erasure of one language over the over-prioritizing another. So I tend to use a lot of Multilingual Learner or Emergent Bilingual in terms of what family engagement looks like when it’s equitable for this particular student group. One of the biggest things is really building families’ capacity and learning. The way I think about it is like any professional learning or development that you would give to teachers around Multilingual Learners and their needs and their rights you should be providing to families as well. And I’ll talk a little bit more later on about a resource we have related to that. But really, it’s making sure that families are aware of their rights, and a lot of times student protected class student groups, like those with special needs as well, they need to be really aware of that–what protections and rights they have under the law so they can properly advocate for their students. And the same is true of Multilingual Learners, and many times they’re not aware of that. And so it can inhibit sometimes families from advocating for the services their child needs, so building families capacity so they understand their rights, they understand what’s okay. And it’s especially important when we’re talking about families who are here as refugees, asylees, or undocumented, because a lot of times there’s a fear of walking into a government, affiliated building, a school, etc. There’s a fear of, what repercussions could there be, especially if a family is undocumented. And so if they’re aware of their rights, they know, for example, that they have the right to not have to provide anything related to citizenship when enrolling their child in school, right? Another piece I would think about that is really critical for equitable family engagement for Multilingual Learner families is accessibility. A lot of times we think that if we translate something, then that means automatically we’ve checked off that box. Yep. We’re being inclusive because it’s available in Somali and Arabic, et cetera, language. But it doesn’t mean that the language is accessible. Young-chan Han, who’s a former colleague of ours here at MAEC writes about the stages of immigrant family involvement. And one of the things that we know of is that there are certain families who come to this country in what she calls this sort of ‘survival mode.’ And then versus we have those that are here as culture as cultural connectors, cultural leaders. And so what that means is that there are families who are coming to the country, really just focused on keeping food on the table, making sure that they have a roof above their heads. And oftentimes those are the families that are usually of lower socioeconomic status and are struggling more. So I put my family in, in this boat, they didn’t fully acquire an English fluency–like they ‘get by’ as they would say. And so if you just translate something for them, from the technical English we use into technical Spanish, they’re still not going to understand it. And so it’s really important that we think about ‘how do we bring language down to the easiest terms to understand? How do we eliminate jargon?’ And the same goes for our native English-speaking families. A lot of times, if we, I think about, especially the language that can throw people off in things like Individualized Education Plans. That language is not easy to understand, even if you know a particular language it’s written in. So it’s really important to make sure that you’re providing communication that’s accessible, not just in terms of language, but really thinking about meeting families at the literacy levels that are their levels of understanding. The last thing I would say that’s really critical to equitable family engagement, especially for Multilingual Learner families is really supporting families and authoring their own engagement. So I gave you examples earlier of how some of my student’s parents couldn’t necessarily participate or engage with the school in some ways, but they found other ways to do it, right? They had other assets they brought to the table. And so when we leverage like family’s assets and the funds of knowledge that they bring, they’re able to then do more of deciding how they want to participate, and how they’re able to instead of saying ‘the school only offers me the one of these six ways to participate and I can’t do any of them.’ So instead, it’s them saying ‘Those are the six ways that you thought of. Here are some ways I can contribute. Is there a space for these?’ So it’s again, coming back to that sword equal partnership, not just one party telling the other what to do. Jessica Webster: As I’m listening to you talk about that, I’m thinking about, that sense of advocacy and equitable partnership is really thinking about honoring those family funds of knowledge. So we talk a lot about that in family engagement. Can you break that down for us? And why do you think that family, like honoring those funds of knowledge is essential for engaging our families? Jenny Portillo-Nacu: Yeah, I love talking about funds of knowledge. So it came out of some ethnographic research and it was interesting because it was conducted by folks who were classroom practitioners. Right? And so they were able to engage with families by coming into their homes and really understanding the backgrounds of families and what knowledge they had accumulated just from life. So there are different sources of funds of knowledge, but some examples can be like, Yeah. The world views that families have that are structured by their broader historical and politically influenced social forums. So I think about, for example, my mother grew up in the middle of a civil war in Guatemala and Central America. She’s got a lot of understanding of the way, that. War affects smaller communities, right? That’s something I can read about, but that’s something she’s experienced. And so she has these worldviews about the impacts of war that are influenced by, by, by how she was socialized in that space. Families can also have academic and personal background knowledge. A lot of times we forget that families, might not be able to leverage the education they got in their home countries because of issues with reciprocity and having to get recertified. And it’s really challenging, but families have a lot of academic and personal knowledge, background knowledge, and that’s another source of funds of knowledge. We also another important piece of funds of knowledge is the resilience that families have. A lot of times we think about how do we talk to students about persistence and making sure that they are resilient. What better source to go to for the actual learning than families who have come into a new system, have adapted, and made it their own? They have that resilience already, and they can speak to it much better than any of us could, right? If we’re just conjuring it as a story, also skills and knowledge used to navigate everyday social context, right? The skills that you have in being able to navigate like just going grocery shopping has a lot of value to it. When I think about the types of skills we try to teach, especially at the early childhood level, families are engaging in that sort of negotiation, interpersonal connections, all of these different things. And even at the high school level, if we at the, and at the secondary and higher ed level, if we have families that engage in different types of work, they’re negotiating, they’re having to deal with the real impact of economic structures, all of these things, that’s valuable. And it’s something that you can leverage in learning, you just have to be intentional. And the last piece would be like, just their accumulated life experiences, whether it’s raising a family, starting a business, buying a home, these are all life experiences that again, have a place in the classroom and in supporting students learning. And so when you leverage funds of knowledge, it really means that you acknowledge what families bring to the table and you validate it. And you validate it the same way that we validate what more, I guess a lot of the research calls it dominant groups. White affluent American, families contribute. A lot of times we think they have higher education, a particular white-collar job, particular language, and we value those things, right? And we invite them for the career days, we invite them to contribute in different ways, but we forget that families who don’t have that still have other strengths that they bring to the table, these funds of knowledge that can still contribute. And so while a family might lack a formal education or a formal American education, there’s still a lot of learning that they have to offer and a lot of knowledge that they have that can and should be leveraged and validated. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you so much. That was that’s that’s really deep. So, honoring families’ funds of knowledge is a key principle for family engagement. So if a school wanted to begin by adapting their current practices to engage and empower families as true partners at the table, where should the school begin, and are there certain family engagement practices that yield higher impacts than others? Jenny Portillo-Nacu: I can’t emphasize this enough, but the first thing that schools really need to do is listen to families. It seems like such a no-brainer, but so many times we make assumptions about what families want and about what they need with the best of intentions, right? There’s never a question of that, but oftentimes we can miss the mark because we’re not actually asking our families in our community ‘What is it that you need and how can we support you?’ One example could be throwing out like a coat drive or something along those lines, or food collections, other things of that nature, thinking that’s how we can best support families when really that might not be the thing that they want. And other examples could be misunderstanding sometimes that what families might want is to jump into having the academics conversations about their child, but maybe they need something more basic than that. If they’re coming in that survival stage, as I was mentioning earlier, they might be more concerned about just having access to health care for their child, and ‘What are some community resources for child care that you can point me to for out-of-school time because I need to make sure my child is the safest place that they can be when I’m at work after school.’ And so we need to make sure that we’re understanding where families are in their needs and in their wants, instead of us assuming that for them, right? Because what can happen is we can unintentionally end up causing more harm than good in that way. So that’s the first thing, is really making sure that we’re listening to families. This can look like conducting family focus groups, conducting surveys, conducting interviews, town hall meetings. Another important thing that can be used, leveraged in this way to really listen to families, is to leverage families who do understand the system, that are more at that cultural connector or cultural leadership level, that have been in the country that because those levels of where, of immigrant family involvement don’t depend on how long you’ve been in the country. You could have been here 35 years like my parents, and they’re still at that survival level, right? But you have families who’ve learned the system who maybe are second and third-generation families of Multilingual Learner students who are very familiar with the system, and they can be leaders, right? And so schools can take the step of empowering those families to lead. Family networks of support where there have been lots of programs around the country that have started what’s called family cafes, where they bring families together in a shared space and they’re able to engage with one another in the language of comfort with people. They know, and its families, teaching other families about the school system, helping them advocate and navigate. And so that’s another key principle around this, that school should really think about is how to leverage the existing leadership in among families and among the community. The other thing I would say that’s really critical is for schools to not think they have to reinvent the wheel. A lot of times they can reach out to family advocacy and community organizations, faith-based organizations that already have really deep connections with the community and the families, and think about ways to partner with them so that they can really have a sustained effort. But there has to be a system in place for all of this. It cannot be left up to an individual teacher or group of teachers. So schools really need to think about what high-level plans can we make. And for example, you’re asking are there some practices that yield more impact than others? Definitely. The Flamboyan Foundation has this sort of spectrum of low to high-impact family engagement activities and there is a place for the potlucks and the celebrations and the back-to-school nights. But if that’s where your efforts stop, that’s where you start to unintentionally create barriers for families that want to be involved more deeply than that. And so that’s where we start getting into home visits. Goal-setting conversations, classroom observations, involving families in the actual learning and curriculum that happens in the classroom, right? But all of those higher impact strategies require that you have support in your school leadership as well as buy-in from individual teachers that will need to implement. You need to have grassroots support and top-level support as well. And so schools need to start by having an authentic planning process and team that involves families, then the second step would be there to listen to those families, and third from there again, would be to take informed action. That’s really guided by the needs in the community and not by assumptions that are being made about the community. Jessica Webster: As you’re talking, I just keep thinking about that whole sense of like into the individual versus the collective and how do we move more towards that collective response by even allowing and encouraging, making space for organizing that collective approach within the community. That’s what really resonates with me as you’re talking about this. Let’s switch gears a little bit, not much, but we want to talk a little bit about some of the resources that we have that you’ve been instrumental in participating in. We know that you helped create the MAEC publication, 21st Century Learning at Home, A Guide for Families and Caregivers of English Learners to support project-based and deeper learning at home [21st-Century Learning at Home: A Guide for Families and Caregivers of English Learners to Support Project-Based Learning at Home]. Can you share with us a little bit about this resource? Jenny Portillo-Nacu: In case that name wasn’t a mouthful, right? It really tells you what it is. So I actually started writing this resource when I was an intern for MAEC and I was going through one of my graduate programs and it was in the middle of COVID, so it was all remote learning and then eventually some sort of hybrid learning across the country that was happening. I was taking a course on this concept of deeper learning and really started thinking about what more authentic and rigorous forms of learning look like, and I started realizing there’s a lot of gatekeeping that happens when it comes to project-based learning. When it comes to inquiry or problem-based learning, there’s gatekeeping that happens when it comes to Multilingual Learners, students with disabilities, et cetera, where we basically say ‘Student blank student group isn’t ready for this until they can do blank.’ And so for Multilingual Learners, often we say they’re not ready for more rigorous, authentic learning, et cetera until they know enough English. And what we really don’t realize is that often it’s the student groups that we’re keeping from these types of learning that are actually most stand to benefit and grow from them. And so English Learners are often isolated into learning the four domains of language, just speaking, reading, writing, and listening in really inauthentic ways. Like ‘You’re going to do this type of vocab practice, you’re going to do this type of speaking practice.’ It’s really isolated, right? When you engage in project-based learning, you’re doing all of this authentic practice with language, because now you’re working with peers and having real conversation, you’re writing for a purpose and not just filling out a worksheet. You’re listening for a particular type of learning. And again, it’s more than just an isolated exercise in the vacuum of a single classroom, and it’s becoming a more transferable opportunity to really practice language in an authentic way. All of this got me realizing that families need to be a part of this too. And so I started developing the guide and really thinking about how do we support families in providing this rigorous, authentic learning? While students are clearly not receiving the normal day’s instruction, right? Like remote learning, wasn’t always full day for students. And then even hybrid learning was creating all these gaps and families were really saying, ‘What can I do to support my child?’ So all of this together contributed to me coming up with this resource, which if you look at it to most teachers, it’ll look like a series of lesson plans for families and that’s truly what it is. It’s a resource that offers some background on what project-based learning is for families so that they can do it at home. It offers some, like some of the research behind how it supports language development, and it offers six different projects that families can do that are appropriate for a variety of age levels. And what I started doing was thinking about what would a family need that maybe a teacher would know and not necessarily need as much of? For example, it includes scaffolded question prompts. Some feedback I got from folks was ‘Sometimes I asked my child a question, like, how was your day today? And they say, fine, how do I keep the conversation going?’ And I included question prompts that families can ask that are working different skills within project-based and 21st-century learning, which are those four C’s, right? Creativity, critical thinking, collaboration, and communication. And it includes projects that are really designed with a culturally responsive lens that leverage the resources and the knowledge that families have at home. All of these great things I was just telling you about. So it’s an amalgamation of all of these things, but I can walk you through the components. So every project has a purpose section that describes what the project is and what it’s trying to accomplish. It gets, has a getting started section that lists suggested materials, timelines. Then there’s a questions for children section, which is those prompts I mentioned that families can also use to get their thinking going before they even do this with their kids. It outlines like some instructions, a process in the instruction section. It also includes a sample sort of script under each instruction step so families get a sense for what a conversation might sound like. There are some scaffolded handouts for anyone who needs them and then additional activities and resources, and again, all of the projects are geared towards creating an authentic product. So for example, it can be a presentation to your family, or it can be like a family cookbook that’s developed that then you can actually use. Or it can be, distributing a resource to your people in your community. So there’s always something that goes outward. It doesn’t exist just in the confines of that project. And it’s funny because a lot of this was also inspired by my own family. I have a nephew who is, who’s ten years old, and during this time my brother was really struggling to figure out how to support his learning. And so he noticed that one of the scripts, for example, features his, my nephew noticed it features his name and like his identity and things about that. And so it just was a resource that was really born out of a really personal, need that I saw in my own family for supporting student learning, but also again, just this history of knowing that project-based learning is one of those things that Multilingual Learner students don’t always get access to. Jessica Webster: It’s definitely a great resource and one that I think schools could help use to leverage and really bring in some other families and build up their capacity and confidence to partner with schools at home. Nikevia Thomas: Yes, I completely agree, and we’re going to use that in one of our projects. Jenny Portillo-Nacu: Good, use it get it out there. Nikevia Thomas: So one of the ideas we promote through CAFE is that family engagement. is much more than communication about what’s happening in school, and in order to engage families of English Learners, we really have to think of ways to build capacity of families to gain the knowledge and skills to navigate the U.S. school system. So how can schools support families in order to build capacity and agency in our communities? Jenny Portillo-Nacu: One of the things that I mentioned earlier was PD for families or like professional development, professional learning for families, on a variety of topics. It can be catered to whatever, again, the family, the community need is, or the family’s needs are in the particular school system. But a lot of times, one of the most powerful ways you can build capacity is doing shared capacity building between school staff and families. So a shared session, if it’s around what engagement looks like, for example, ‘What does equitable engagement mean?’ Where you have families and teachers sitting in the same space. What kind of more powerful dialogue can that generate right? Then them being able to share in that space. Other things other ways that schools can support would be like, what I mentioned earlier is creating sort of family and parent networks where you can build family leadership. A great example is an organization called Logan Square that really builds a lot of family capacity. They’re based out of Chicago, I believe, and they do a lot of work around supporting family leaders in the community to really connect with other families that are feeling less capable of navigating the system or who are newer to the country, have more barriers. And it’s really about leveraging their leadership because now, again, there’s already a trust factor built in because these are folks from the community who are. Also supporting their kids at the same time. I also think it’s important to think about on the school side of it. This isn’t families building families capacity necessarily, but it is about building a school staff capacity around the importance of family engagement and how to do it in a way that’s culturally responsive and equitable. And so it’s really important, because then if you’re addressing mindsets and your practices for staff they’re going to be better able to also, on an individual basis, build family capacity, whether that’s one on one calls around goal setting for their kids, or it’s bringing families into the building to be able to support instruction, right? If a teacher is doing a particular unit that has overlap with a family’s occupation-bringing them in. But if we don’t build teacher capacity to do that, they won’t know how to engage. So it’s a sort of bifurcated thing. You have to build family capacity, and then you have to build staff capacity to engage with families at the same time. Jessica Webster: So another resource, and we had talked about this, you hinted at it earlier, when we were talking about building advocacy skills for our families. MAEC has another great resource called ¡Adelante! Moving Forward!, and that’s a guide to empower parents of English Learners to advocate for their children. So what is this resource and how do you envision families and schools using this as a resource? Jenny Portillo-Nacu: I’m a huge fan of this resource. I’d love to be able to say that I had a hand in writing it, but I’m just a big user of it, big proponent of it. So what Adelante is all about is it’s not a resource that you would hand a family and say, ‘here, take this and go’ in the same way that the parents guide that around 21st-century learning is, this resource is really about supporting Multilingual Learner families. And like I mentioned earlier, learning their rights, so it helps them understand legislation that applies to their students. The access to services that they need to have in terms of translation interpretation, what their rights are around engagement because legislation does dictate around how what kind of engagement there needs to be for Multilingual Learner families and also helps families who have students who are also classified as having a special education need. And so what the guide does is that it provides like a scenario, usually like a real-life scenario, and then it offers some reflection questions for the families or caregivers to answer. Then it gives a quick sort of knowledge-building piece where it teaches them again about whether it’s policy or legislation or federal things. And then it has them reflect on next steps and provides resources. So the way we envision this resource being used is that a school, a family advocacy organization, a community organization, would offer this almost as a workshop where they would host a session where families would focus maybe on one of the key components of the guide, maybe it’s all focused on translation interpretation mandates, right? You invite families, you walk them through the scenario. Some feedback we’ve gotten in presenting on the on Adelante is ‘What about families?’ again, making assumptions about family literacy levels and access. And one of the things we talked about is the scenario can be role-played. Like the scenario can be role-played, it can be recorded as a video, there’s flexibility with how it gets used. And then you have families have real discussion about this and you educate them on their rights, but it’s all done in an accessible way. So we’re not going to pull out, Title III and go over the ins and outs of it or the Every Student Succeeds Act, instead it’s ‘You have a right to translation and interpretation services. This is what you should have. It cannot just be Google translate.’ Or ‘You have a right to be engaged and you have parental rights within the school building. And this is what that sounds like.’ So again, this isn’t a resource that you would just hand a family and say, ‘Go read’ It’s something that would be a shared learning experience. So we talked about, having a PD experience for families. This would be one resource you could use to do that. And it’s really powerful the way that it brings some really high abstract concepts and language down to a level that’s really accessible for anyone to be able to understand and work with. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing about Adelante, Jenny. We’ll be sure to add a link in our, in the description of this episode so folks can access it. And that really concludes this episode of the Corner CAFE Podcast. Jenny, sincerely, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your expertise on family engagement in education. Jenny Portillo-Nacu: Thanks for having me and letting me, talk about this topic that I’m so passionate about. It’s really critical as we think about the growing population of Multilingual Learners that we have in this country and just how valuable it is to involve different communities’ voices within the life of the school. And, that’s how we make sure that we’re supporting every kiddo the way that they should be. Jessica Webster: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think we all agree that we’re super passionate about finding ways to make sure our schools and families are working together. So thank you for joining us. And to our listeners, thank you for sharing a cup of conversation with us. And we hope that you’ve enjoyed the conversation today until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing. And don’t forget to follow us on X at CAFE_MAEC.

Nikevia Thomas: Hello everybody. This is Nikevia and Jessica from MAEC’s CAFE and you’re listening to The Corner CAFE Podcast. Families, schools, and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that The rest of us can do the same. So let’s get started. Jessica Webster: In today’s episode, we have the pleasure of speaking with Sherri Wilson, Senior Director of Training and Engagement at NAFSCE on their Family Engagement Core Competencies and Reframing Academy. NAFSCE stands for The National Association for Family Schools and Community Engagement, and it was actually co-founded by MAEC’s very own president, Susan Shaffer. Sherri is a nationally recognized expert and consultant and family engagement and has served in leadership positions, including at the National PTA and the Center for Active Family Engagement. Sherri, we’re so excited to speak with you today. Thank you so much for joining us. Sherri Wilson: It is my pleasure. I’m really happy to be here. Nikevia Thomas: Thank you, Sherri. So, we know from the research and the work you engage in at NAFSCE, that authentic and effective family, school, and community engagement is about so much more than back-to-school nights and classroom volunteers. It’s more than communicating with parents when there’s a problem with their child. It’s even more than simply caring for a student, their well-being, and their success. Yet, according to research conducted by the Framework Institute, the public largely thinks of family and community engagement in exactly those ways. So, how should we begin framing family engagement? Sherri Wilson: That is such a great question. It is something that we really struggled with and, and the reason why we partnered with the Frameworks Institute to research the way we communicate about family engagement in the first place. Unfortunately, often when we talk about family engagement people don’t really understand what we mean and sometimes the things that we say, the words that we use, cause them to tap into cultural models that really lead them to unproductive thinking and don’t help them understand exactly what we mean. So, it’s important when we think about how we communicate about family engagement that we start by orienting towards equity. People need to understand what’s not equitable right now. What are the things that are preventing every family from having the opportunity to be engaged in their children’s education and what can be done about those? And then the second thing we have to do is we have to remember that the context of the schools and school systems can sometimes prevent or promote good policy or good family engagement practices from even happening. So, we really have to help our audiences understand how schools can create the, the culture and climate that makes engagement possible. And then finally, we really have to illustrate the transformative power of family engagement, the outcomes that students may be able to achieve when their families are fully engaged in everything they’re learning. Jessica Webster: Those are great points, Sherri. I know that in thinking about this, the whole idea that if we just cared more, right, is not really going to get us the solutions that we need. So talk to us a little bit about what are some best practices schools and family leaders can use that would engage families, keeping in mind this whole concept of reframing family engagement. Sherri Wilson: Yeah, so what you just mentioned about the families that care more. That’s a really important example of a cultural model that prevents people from thinking about family engagement in productive ways. We don’t want people to think that family engagement is an individual’s responsibility or that some people care and other people don’t, whether you’re talking about educators or about families, it’s really important that you leave caring out of this altogether. The reality is all teachers want kids to be successful and all families want their kids to be successful. So that’s one of the recommended strategies that we learned when we did this research with Frameworks that it’s important that we, we talk about it in ways that avoid falling into those traps and do things like, like, using a space launch metaphor to help people understand that the role that families play is as important as the role that experts play when they’re launching a rocket. When you launch a rocket, you need, you need physicists and astronauts and the engineers and communicators and mathematicians. When you’re talking about launching student success, you need a team of experts, you need families and educators and administrators and community partners when everyone works together, kids have the opportunity to really reach the stars. Nikevia Thomas: Oh, thank you, Sherri. I really like that, that metaphor. It’s the image of, of this, the rocket ship and all hands being on deck. Maybe two. Sherri Wilson: Yeah. Another nice thing about the metaphor too is you can always, once you, once you put that metaphor out there and you start using that language when you’re communicating, you can always reflect back on it with images and graphics and there are so many ways that people map on things they know about family engagement to things they know about a space launch. Jessica Webster: Very true. Sherri Wilson: It just works really well. Nikevia Thomas: It’s a great approach. Let’s talk a little more. So, over the course of the past three years or so, NAFSCE has been on a journey to uncover and understand the knowledge, skills, and dispositions that family facing professionals bring to forming strong family, school, and community partnerships. Can you explain what the NAFSCE Family Engagement Core Competencies are, and what inspired NAFSCE to develop them? Sherri Wilson: Yeah, that’s a great question. So this actually, we’ve worked on this for the last three years, but this was actually one of the things that we were thinking about way back when our founders started this organization. And I was actually one of the founding board members. So once Susan came up with the idea and shared it with the rest of us, we were really excited to get started, but we knew because we’d worked in family engagement for so long, that part of the challenge we have is that family facing professionals and school leaders, educators, and afterschool providers, they have very few opportunities early on in their career, and sometimes even throughout their careers, to learn how to partner with families and communities. So, when our organization first started, we realized this was going to be something that we would be really interested in addressing and, you know, it’s challenging when you’re a startup organization to get your feet on the ground and, and tackle these big projects. But about three years ago, we finally had enough staff to really get a handle on the challenge, and then some of the strategies that we think would really help family facing professionals understand how they can engage families in meaningful ways. So, would you like me to share with you what the core competencies are just like the general? Jessica Webster: Please, that’d be great. Sherri Wilson: Yeah, I started thinking maybe there was more to that question. So, we, we actually divided it up into four different areas that we think really everything we should be doing with families falls into these areas. So, the first one is Reflect, the second one is Connect, the third is Collaborate, and the fourth is Lead. So, Reflect really means looking inward and developing cultural humility, embracing equity, and respecting and valuing the diversity of families. Connecting means building trusting relationships with families that are based on mutual respect and foster social networks among families and communities. Collaborate means we have to work together to construct programs, opportunities, resources, that really help us do this work together better. And then Lead means we take part in brokering programs and practices that, alongside families, that really change and orient towards equity. Nikevia Thomas: Wow. Reflect, Connect, Collaborate, Lead. Sherri Wilson: Yes. Jessica Webster: And what I really hear in that is the co-construction of those things, right? It’s not, it’s not schools doing it for families. It’s schools doing it with the community and with families. Sherri Wilson: Right. First, the first thing is you really have to respect that all families have strengths and they bring a lot to the table. And when we work together, we’ll get much farther because often there are barriers to family engagement that school professionals are completely unaware of. And when we work in partnership with families, they help us understand what some of those barriers are and help us understand the things they think they need, rather than us deciding what they need and then offering it up because that’s never successful. Jessica Webster: Mm-mm. And that way, I think we’re not working harder, we’re working smarter. Nikevia Thomas: Exactly, and it ties into reframing. Jessica Webster: Yup, 100%. Sherri Wilson: Yup. Nikevia Thomas: So, we know that from our collaboration with you, Sherri, that NAFSCE is really interested in how these Core Competencies can be used to shape pre service and professional learning for family facing professionals. Can you speak more about what? Sherri Wilson: There’s so many challenges, particularly when you’re talking about working in the area of pre service education for teachers, because the reality is every college or university plans its own curriculum and their own course load for aspiring educators. And so there’s not a lot of consistency from university to college to university, right? Everyone’s kind of doing their own thing. And that’s a big challenge for us. Many educators get into the classroom without ever having had any kind of formal training on how to work in partnership with families. So one of the things we’ve done is develop a pre service framework. We’ve worked with some partner organizations who, who work on teacher credentialing to really try and understand what are the things that educators need to know before they get into the classroom to really be true partners with families. And this week, we’re actually hosting a pre service education symposium with the National Education Association, where we’re going to talk with leaders in the field about how that framework might be implemented and what kind of strategies will really help us be most successful. Jessica Webster: And I also hear what I hear as a school leader or a former school leader, is that if we know that this isn’t being addressed in the pre service realm until we can get it to be more systematic for our pre service teachers. We also need to be very cognizant and making sure it’s part of the work that we do for induction programming for our new teachers and during professional development for our teaching staff and making it a priority. Sherri Wilson: Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of teachers in the classroom now that are done with their pre service education. And so the pre service work that we’re doing now isn’t going to do anything for them at all. But you’re right, a lot of administrators are starting to realize that family engagement is more than just a compliance issue or a nice to do kind of thing. It’s something that can really have a significant impact on student outcomes. And teachers… Really need to know how best to do that, and they haven’t always been given that opportunity. So I think there is a lot more opportunities for professional development for existing educators that are out there. And there are, there’s places like CAFE where people can go, and they can get all kinds of training and grow their own professional skills and their professional networks as well. Jessica Webster: That’s a great plug. And it’s also a great explanation. So we talked about this a little bit, but as we know, in education, one size does not fit all and that’s also the case when it comes to family engagement. And so I know we talked a little bit about making sure that we’re reframing it so that we’re focused more on equity and inclusion. Can you give us some key strategies that would help practitioners really promote those that sense of equity and inclusion and the work of family engagement? Sherri Wilson: Sure. I will start with two. so the first one is, and this is based on the research that the Frameworks Institute did when they were developing our Reframing Strategies, and one of the things they found that is universally appreciated by Americans is that people strongly believe that everyone deserves an opportunity to succeed, whether you belong to that group that thinks, you know, you’re best pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps or you’re, you know, some other group. Everyone, by and large, thinks you had to at least have an opportunity. So, whenever we’re talking about family engagement, we should preface our, our remarks, or our comments, or our text with “every child deserves the opportunity to succeed.” And we know when families are engaged, that is more likely to happen because people, once they hear that opportunity for all message, they tend to agree with whatever comes after that. And then the other thing I would say is equity is hard because there are many people who don’t live and breathe this work, who aren’t like immersed in our communities, that get messages about equity and have no idea what we’re talking about. They think we’re talking about their home equity or equity they might have in alert life insurance policy. They just aren’t aware of the way we talk about education equity at this point. So when you are communicating about equity and you’re trying to make people aware about, of something that’s not equitable, you really have to spell it out. You have to be crystal clear. What is the inequity? What is the consequence of that inequity? And then what is the solution you would like to see? One of the things we learned from the Frameworks Institute was that you can build an equity chain where you go through those steps. You write down “here’s the here’s the inequity”, “here’s the result of that”, “here’s one of the consequences,” “here’s our short term solution,” “and here’s our long term solution.” And after you write each of those sentences, you can cobble them together and have a really good equity statement that tends to get more support than just saying things like, you know, we believe in equity or we are working towards more equity. Because people really don’t understand that. Jessica Webster: That’s right, and it also allows you to personalize it so that you’re really talking about what that definition means for your community and the people in it which may be different based on what community you live in, what your needs are, and what your different groups, what your diversity looks like in your different groups that need that support and need to feel included. Sherri Wilson: Yeah, I’ve done this work for over 25 years, and one thing I’ve learned is anybody that you’re trying to change their behavior or their, their opinions or their ideas, you just have to be really, really clear, just putting out global statements, like, you know, “we’re working towards more equity in our school” means nothing to most people. And things, even things like, you know, “read with your child every day”, that’s so general and broad that people don’t understand that either. The more clear you are, the more you focus on a specific need for your school or your community, the more likely you’re going to have positive outcomes. Jessica Webster: Absolutely. Nikevia Thomas: Wow, Sherri, thank you so much for that. Wow. So, I have another question. So, as we all know, the COVID-19 pandemic has drastically changed the way we approach education and family engagement, and in light of this, we want to discuss how the Family Engagement Core Competencies can help educators and other family facing professionals navigate these challenges. What are your thoughts on this topic, Sherri? Sherri Wilson: Yeah, I think the COVID-19 pandemic had some silver linings. Not many, and they were hard to find. But one thing it did do was it made it real clear that families play a really important role in their children’s education. And the schools and school districts that had strong, trusting, respectful relationships with families before the pandemic started had a much easier time communicating with them and keeping them engaged in their children’s education while kids were forced to learn from home during the pandemic, than the schools that didn’t. So we know that that relationship piece is critical and families really need to understand what their kids are learning and how they can support that. So the Core Competencies really give us an area where we can really focus on how we’re reaching those families, how we’re building those connections for them, how we’re reflecting on our own practices so that we are recognizing areas where we might need to do a little bit more work. It gives us a better opportunity to connect with families so that we can build stronger, respectful relationships and really understand each other better. So we can work together to support students. It gives us an opportunity to really develop more opportunities to collaborate. So we’re doing things like co-constructing those learning opportunities or linking family and community engagement to the learning and development that students are making. And then finally, it also gives us an opportunity to really take a leadership role in talking about how we need to make some systems changes so that we’re able to do these things in a way that’s more intentional and more focused, and really taking part in some lifelong learning to develop our own skills and ability to move this work forward. And of course, with the reframing, we know that we really have to learn how to talk about family engagement in a way that helps people understand what we mean. Jessica Webster: That’s right. So as we close out the session, let us in on some secrets from the field. What are some of the key trends or the latest developments in the field of family engagement? Sherri Wilson: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, definitely this pre service thing is going to be huge. We’re working really hard on that. The Core Competencies right now are starting to take off. So we put together the report with the Core Competencies in them. Ohio, the Ohio Statewide Family Engagement Center is working with us to develop a rubric so family facing professionals will be able to assess their own practice in each of these Core Competencies. We get calls every day from others who are interested in using the Core Competencies in a way to really expand the work that they’re doing. So I think that this is going to be, it’s going to be really exciting to see what happens with this in the next few years. We’re also trying to develop a credential for family engagement, because I know that, you know, I’ve worked in the field of family engagement for 25 years, and it’s not always been something that’s been, I’ll say, well respected. The field has really been all over the place and we really want to elevate the work that we’re doing because it’s as important of a strategy as any other learning strategy. So, if we can develop a credential and people are able to really demonstrate that they’re skilled in this area we think it’s going to elevate the field overall. Jessica Webster: It’s exciting. Nikevia Thomas: Very exciting. Jessica Webster: So if people want to know more about family engagement and the Core Competencies, they can find this information on your website, which is NAFSCE.org, N-A- F- S- C- E. org. And so we want listeners to be able to have that information. Sherri Wilson: Yes, it stands for The National Association for Family, School, and Community Engagement. And if you’re looking specifically for Reframing or the Core Competencies, go to our work page and you’ll see a link for each of the areas that we’re working in. Nikevia Thomas: Sherri, thank you so much for joining us today. Sherri Wilson: It has been my pleasure. Nikevia Thomas: We really gained some valuable insights on strategies for increasing and understanding family engagement. So, really, I thank you, really. Sherri Wilson: Well, I’m a fan of the work that you guys do, so it was a treat to get to spend some time with you. Jessica Webster: Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. And to our listeners, thank you for sharing a cup of conversation with us. And we hope that you’ve enjoyed the conversation today. Until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing. And don’t forget to follow us on X at CAFE underscore M-A-E-C.