The Creative "Viz"

How can developers scale their marketing efforts and drive real results, even in a challenging market? In this episode of The Creative Viz, Scott Baumberger talks with Deren Akinci, VP of Marketing and Strategy at ACE Project Marketing Group, about what it takes to succeed in real estate marketing today. Deren dives into his experience growing ACE’s portfolio of multifamily and resort projects across British Columbia, offering insights on how to build scalable systems, adapt to market slowdowns, and craft strategies that deliver measurable outcomes. If you’re looking to elevate your real estate marketing game with smarter, results-driven strategies, this conversation is a must-listen.

Scott Baumberger: Hello, and welcome to the Creative Viz podcast where we talk about topics in architecture development and visual design today. I'm pleased to have Alicyn Emerick - she is the director of Marketing and Communications with Greenberg Gibbons in Baltimore, Maryland. Welcome Alicyn, it’s great to see you.    I understand Greenberg Gibbons is very focused on retail. I'd love to hear about your role and how retail is doing right now?   Alicyn Emerick: Well, Greenberg Gibbons is a premier real estate developer, owner and manager specializing in retail, mixed use, residential and commercial properties, specifically throughout the East Coast. I've been with the company now just over 12 years which is wild and really exciting to see us in this state of growth that we're in.   And a lot of it does have to do with the fact that retail is doing exceptionally well right now and I think that you're seeing that it's one of the best asset classes in our industry, and we're feeling the same way here at Greenberg Gibbons. Last year in 2023, we had the best leasing momentum that we've had in maybe over 15 years. And I think we're continuing to ride that wave now in 2024.    Scott Baumberger: That's great. What a difference just a few years make because it was hit so hard, in the pandemic. So you're seeing strong growth?   Alicyn Emerick: We are, we are. And I think that, with some of the trends in terms of less new construction taking place in our industry. We're seeing this pinch where businesses need a home and a lot of the existing vacancy that's out there right now is really appealing. So I think we're seeing a lot of success with leasing for that reason alone.    Scott Baumberger: So it sounds like it's a mix of existing properties that you're acquiring and potentially repositioning. Are there new developments as well?   Alicyn Emerick: Yeah. A fun fact is, coming out of the thick of the pandemic, our president actually saw an opportunity to really diversify our portfolio and expand as a company. So we started an investment fund, which allowed us to expand up and down the East Coast and step outside of just the mid Atlantic region, which is really exciting for us as a company and as a business.   But that being said, I think that it gave us the opportunity to really sit back and think about what our strategy is going forward. And so, despite some of the negativity that might be surrounding new development, we're still very bullish on new development, and we actually have about 4.7 million square feet of new development in our pipeline.   Scott Baumberger: That's great. I want to touch on the new markets here in a sec, but I am curious, how has the tenant mix changed over the last few years? I've heard anecdotally that experience retail is, performing especially well and restaurants, Are you seeing that?   Alicyn Emerick: Spot on Scott. The experiential factor, whether it's a tenant itself or within our center, is super important. We're seeing a lot more of that experiential. So whether it be a new restaurant, or a concept that bridges the entertainment with the dining experience. I think you're seeing companies like Dick's Sporting Goods coming out with House of Sport, which is a really cool concept right now. Bridging that gap between soft goods and experience. We're also seeing that convenience and service are huge for us as well. So, convenience, I think, whether you're talking about grocery store or that kind of retail that spills into service with medical, beauty services… pretty much those products that you can't get online.   Scott Baumberger: Exactly. I was gonna say the same thing.   Alicyn Emerick: You can't get it on Amazon. Yeah.   Scott Baumberger: Do tell us about some of the new markets that Greenberg Gibbons is working on.   Alicyn Emerick: So, as I mentioned, we started our first investment fund, back in 2021, which was a lot of fun just being able to access new markets outside of that Mid Atlantic territory. So we ended up in the Carolinas, as far south as Florida, and as far north as Rhode Island. We recently acquired a project just outside of Nashville called Cool Springs Point. So that is probably the furthest west our acquisition has gotten.    Scott Baumberger: interesting. So what does Greenberg Givens look for with site selection, both existing or potential redevelopment?   Alicyn Emerick: So I think for us it really, it does depend. I mean, I think when it comes to our development projects, one of the things that Greenberg Gibbons is known for is this idea of revitalizing a site. So for us, community is huge. It's one of our core pillars. And so anytime that we can go into a market and take a hole in the ground or maybe it's a dilapidated site that no longer services the community. We want to take that and our vision is to turn that into what will become a mixed use gathering place for the community.   As far as acquisitions goes, we still really strongly believe in the grocery-anchored center.    Scott Baumberger: So, I can only imagine there's a deep pool of distressed retail at this moment. So are you finding it not so difficult to find  acquisition opportunities?   Alicyn Emerick: I think there's ebbs and flows. I think that, there was this opportunity coming out of the pandemic to start the fund and really acquire projects that nobody else was going after. And then I think the rest of the world caught on and we saw this influx and a lot more friendly competition is out there buying these assets. I think there's still a little bit of that, but it only pushes us harder to make sure that we're going after the right deal in the right market.    Scott Baumberger: Every site's a little different but, are there criteria,you look for access to transportation, housing, any kind of metrics like that, when you're looking at sites?   Alicyn Emerick: Yeah. For us, all of that's incredibly important. I think that, for us specifically, we do have a focus on retail led mixed use projects. So, our business is about partnerships. We have a robust mixed use development pipeline where we intend to build additional uses that help and compliment that mixed use environment.   So, just kind of going back, thinking about how we're expanding some of our capabilities, any time that there's an opportunity where we can develop mixed-use, whether it's partnering with another organization to do a residential piece at the site, or hotel or commercial, that's really appealing to us. As far as some of the criteria and then there is definitely a grouping of criteria that we use when acquiring a project.    Scott Baumberger: So, I'm thinking of, say an old but well located, having seen a better day, retail center. You might come in, rehab it, reposition it and are you, possibly adding a residential or hotel, other uses?   Alicyn Emerick: Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the things that I think is super important is that we've constantly got to reevaluate our portfolio and figure out ways that we can evolve. And so whether that's repositioning the center and remerchandising. The businesses that are there, and resetting what that merchandising strategy is, to an overhaul on the common area and even densifying the project.   So we have a project actually out of Baltimore County, Maryland, where we were able to add residential back. I think it was like 2014 and since, in the last couple of years have now added a senior living component and another residential component to that as well. And so those apartments that should be opening soon will really compliment the center.    Scott Baumberger: That's an interesting observation. So the addition of those uses, obviously that's a revenue stream, but it actually makes the retail perform better.   Alicyn Emerick: Correct. From there it really plays into the overall retail strategy as well. It's who we are bringing that compliments those uses. So it comes full circle.   Scott Baumberger: I can imagine. So, tell us a bit about the challenges that you are running into. When we talk about densifying older sites that can be really challenging.   Alicyn Emerick: So when it comes to any kind of new development, I think that you're running up against rising interest rates. And so that's definitely been an issue for the industry as a whole. That being said, you're also seeing less new construction because of the rising construction costs as it relates to goods and labor. And so, we're seeing that just like anybody else. I think you're also seeing that permits and entitlements are sometimes delayed when it comes to that new development. But it definitely doesn't deter our company. As I mentioned before, we still have plenty in the pipeline and feel that there's no reason to slow down.   We do believe that construction costs will come down over the course of the year. Mostly for goods. I wouldn't say labor, that's probably gonna stay high, but, I would say those are probably the biggest challenges that we're facing. And I think all it does is force you to become more creative with your strategy.    Scott Baumberger: Well, that is encouraging. That's great. Do you run into community opposition with some of these projects, issues like increased traffic increase, multifamily residents, and concerns from the existing community.    Alicyn Emerick: Yeah, I think what helps Greenberg Gibbons is just how involved they are with the community, from the very beginning of a project. So if it's a development project, we're meeting with the community as we're going through these hearings with the county or city or municipality. And moving forward, if we're adding to the site , we're attending community meetings, or we're working with our elected officials. And so that's super important to us that we have the feedback from the community as we're working on a project.   And so, yes, sometimes you do have passionate individuals who have a reason as to why maybe they would oppose something. And it's up to us to really stop and listen to what their fears or concerns are and be able to work through whatever that is. And most times, I would say that, it's just a matter of communicating and exploring. Explaining to them exactly what's going to take place, that we've done the traffic study, and that we have more than enough parking spaces on site, and sometimes just hearing that, is helpful to understand for us, it is about the experience once you reach the site. So we want to make sure that, when we go into a plan, or, a design, that it is appealing, To the guest as well, and, with the tenant and their accessibility. So I would say we absolutely do get that kind of feedback. But luckily we've always been able to work through it, just by having those strong relationships.    Scott Baumberger: Let's talk about marketing for a sec. When a new development or reposition is about to go live, what are some of your strategies? Does your outreach for potential tenants and any community outreach, reflect that they might be some of the same people who will shop there?   Alicyn Emerick: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're working on a few of those cases now -  those properties that are under development. And just recently we opened a self storage facility which is the first in our portfolio at a center of ours called Reisterstown Shopping Center. And I definitely think that visuals really aided us to be able to convey that this wasn't your traditional self storage facility. It's an aesthetically pleasing building that really slides into the retail setting. So far, we've had really positive feedback from the community, but without those renderings, I'm not sure that they could have really visualized what we were trying to share with them, which is that, not only is it an underserved market for self storage.   And so you're going to appreciate just how it helps on a day-to-day basis with coming to the center, but it was so visually appealing and it wasn't going to be this back of house with boats and cars and things like that. So, I think that definitely helps. When we're looking at, prospective tenants, we are putting together, marketing brochures and specialty marketing pieces that really show them, not only the success of Greenberg Gibbons and and how we're a great partner as a landlord, but also to show the positioning of the center in the market and what their positioning within the center will look like. And so, everything from, sharing the demographics and the co-tenancy of the project, but also, using visuals to show them how their sign will look and how that visibility from, the main access or highway, and how well that reads. So I think that visuals are probably one of our best friends in that capacity.   Scott Baumberger I couldn't agree anymore! That's great. So it really does come down to communication then. That's what I'm hearing.   Alicyn Emerick: And that's a big part of what I do at Greenberg Gibbons. I really enjoy it, but I think, with communication comes listening - it goes hand in hand.    Scott Baumberger: Well said. Thank you. Well, I'd love to hear about some of your recent success stories. We were talking a minute ago about the Sea Turtle project in Hilton Head, South Carolina. Please, tell us a bit more about that.   Alicyn Emerick: So, a fun fact is, when we acquired Sea Turtle Marketplace on Hilton Head Island back in 2022, everyone at the company raised their hand that they would go down there and personally visit it  themselves. So if you've ever been to Hilton Head, it's a beautiful island. And,the site itself is beautiful as a 99,000 square foot shopping center. We acquired it, but it was only 46 percent leased, and it was capital starved. And so, we saw a lot of opportunity in filling some of these bigger, box vacancies. We were able to add Golf Galaxy, HomeSense, and there was an undeveloped parcel that we've now signed Aldi to.   So now we've gone from a power center that was 46 percent leased, to a 98 percent leased grocery-anchored center. And I think as I shared with you earlier in a couple of weeks, that'll be a 100 percent. Huge success, all in all for us.    Scott Baumberger: Even better! 100 percent, you can't do better than that. I know Hilton Head can be really challenging: zoning and land use is very strict on the island. Signage is a particularly sensitive topic. Every project is different, but, this one, especially, I imagine it stands out. Were there any unique challenges associated with it?   Alicyn Emerick: I think we're still going through it. We just signed all these leases, and we're just underway with some of those plans. It's definitely a territory that our company is all too familiar with in terms of going through the process with the municipality. And so, I think that this is just the same for us.   Scott Baumberger: You're ready for it. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, as we start to wrap things up, I'd love to hear any other positive vibes that you might have for us. I know it's been a really challenging time for the development industry as a whole, but it sounds like you have weathered it especially well. What do you have coming up, in the rest of your pipeline for ‘24 and ‘25?   Alicyn Emerick: I think, like I mentioned, we have about 4. 7 million square feet of development in our pipeline. And, I think that overall, we're just really excited to be kind of ahead of the curve. I think that there are a lot of companies out there that have refrained and sat back from new development. I think we see it as an opportunity to continue on our path as usual. It's been, a few years since we've had a new development project. So being able to see these mixed use masterpieces from different markets come to life, I think is really cool.   We're really enjoying AI a lot. There's a number of ways that we're using it to our advantage. A lot of other companies are as well, but one of my favorite softwares is Placer.AI. If you're familiar with it, we've used it now several times to our benefit. There's a report on Placer.AI called “A Day in a Life” video. And so we're using that to help renew tenants. We actually had a situation where we had an existing tenant, they were against us bringing a fitness user to the center, because they thought that the hours would overlap and it would impact their parking. and we were able to use “A Day in the Life” video to show them that that wouldn't be the case, and so we got the waiver from them. I think that there's a lot of good out there coming up in the pipeline and looking forward to seeing how the industry turns.    Scott Baumberger: That's great. So it's not just coming for our jobs!   Alicyn Emerick: I mean, as any marketer would say, I'm loving all of the means out there on AI right now, but I think AI does a lot of good. It’s fun to see, I mean, if you look at what's going on in our industry, JLL just worked with a company called Imaginuity to create a virtual influencer, and I've had a lot of fun following that. The more that these take place, I think the more accessible and affordable it will be for the rest of the industry.    I think it was just the other day - there are things we love about ChatGPT or some of these other AI platforms, but we went to do an image. And the woman had three heads and three hands. So you have to be careful. You have to monitor.  It's a tool, but it's not a replacement.    Scott Baumberger: No, not by any means. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm afraid that's all the time we have today. I could talk about AI and property tech for an hour, but thank you so much Alicyn it's great to see you and I really appreciate your insights. Congratulations. It’s really great to hear that you guys are doing so well.   Alicyn Emerick: Thanks so much for having us. I'm excited to speak with you again - a year from now and see where we're at. But I appreciate you having me.   Scott Baumberger: Awesome, let's do it. Thank you

Scott Baumberger: Hello and welcome to the Creative 'Viz' podcast, where we discuss topics in architecture, real estate development, and visual design. Today, I'm thrilled to have Alaina Jackson Jackson with us. She is the Director of Sales and Marketing for PeakMade Real Estate in Fort Worth, Texas. Welcome, Alaina Jackson. Great to see you.   Alaina Jackson: Great to see you. Great to be here. I'm super excited.   Scott Baumberger: Oh, thank you. Well, tell me a little bit about what you're doing these days and how 2024 is going so far.   Alaina Jackson: So, I'm the Director of Sales and Marketing at PeakMade. I oversee all of our strategy for all of our verticals. Right now, that includes multifamily third-party management, student housing third-party management, which is our flagship property management, and then also our development company.    I work hand in hand with development to get the properties launched with leasing. We step through that initial year, and then from there, jump right into renewal fees and things like that. I oversee all of that strategy in conjunction with overseeing the sales arm of our blended sales and marketing team. What that consists of is a group of regional sales managers. They split the portfolio four ways and oversee the execution of that strategy.    So, really cool, very rewarding stuff. This year we are crushing it. Our portfolio is currently pre-leased at 82%, which is a really big deal because we've seen some really big rent increases across the board just across the country. We have also recently taken over some Canadian properties. So that's super exciting to see us evolve and expand into Canada. One of which is a new development and then the other three are stable student deals. So really busy at PeakMade but a really good busy.   Scott Baumberger: That's great. You have your hands full, I can tell. I'm interested to hear, you mentioned that the sales and marketing groups are integrated - everybody does this a little differently. I'd love to hear how that came about and what that looks like for you on a day-to-day basis.   Alaina Jackson: For the last two years, our sales and marketing support departments have been merged into one, but right before that, we were actually two separate teams. One focused on back-of-the-house marketing items and then front-of-the-house sales. So that regional sales manager team that I was talking about that I oversee is very much a front-of-the-house client-facing position. It is the position that I held right before this one, so it's way more hands-on with the execution piece of things.   Two years ago, we decided because we can't have one without the other, we might as well go ahead and blend the team. So with that blend came my promotion into this role and my direct supervisor's promotion into a senior vice president role of sales and marketing, which has been very beneficial because we're able to tap into each individual team member on the marketing arm of the team. They have a very specific area of marketing that they are focused on and are able to partner with the front-of-the-house sales arm of the team.   A good example is our digital marketing manager. It was something that we implemented a couple of years back when digital marketing really started to take over in the student housing and multifamily space. His sole responsibility is to oversee and work with agency partners to come up with a very robust digital marketing strategy for each individual property and each individual market. We have a few properties or a few markets where we have multiple properties or a scattered site where each individual building needs something else or serves a different demographic. Right. So he's able to really get granular and dig in there to find out what we need to be doing to target our renter for those specific sites, even though they may be in the same market just on totally different sides of campus. And so from that, he's able to work hand-in-hand with the regional sales manager that might oversee those properties in that market to execute the plan and get that digital strategy rolled out. So it's been very beneficial for us to just be under one umbrella, one big slide.   Rebrand is another really good example and cool way that it has been beneficial to be one team. The marketing arm of the team is going to come up with what that really cool brand looks like or work with the agency partner to be sure that we have the right branding and messaging and all the really cool things that come with the rebrand. Then the sales arm of the team is going to take that rebrand and roll it out the right way at the property to make sure that it penetrates the market the right way. So it's been a game changer for us to be blended. This makes things a lot more efficient. In 2024, it was one of our very big company goals to focus on efficiency in ways that we can streamline things. That is one of the ways that we came into this year, and it's been leaps and bounds better.   Scott Baumberger: Sounds like it's working. So with such a wide geographic reach that you guys have projects, they're gonna be marketed very differently. Florida versus Canada even, right? So how do you work with the agency to personalize that messaging?   Alaina Jackson: Yep, so we do. We actually have a vendor partner that we split 50-50 every day profit. Just all things are number one go-to and that has also been very beneficial. They're actually based in the great state of Texas. They're our go-to partner for branding, they're our go-to partner for the new developments when we need renderings for plans and things like that, messaging copy for the website. We actually just got a really cool award this year for our website project with them. What we did was because we're a third-party management company, we don't own and operate, we just operate. One of the things we were able to do is streamline the website process, the onboarding of a new deal, and how they're marketing and branding. We go about that through the website by coming up with four standard templates that we used across the portfolio. We were able to easily onboard properties when we get them onto one of those templates that meets their demographic needs and resonates with the renter.   But that project has been successful for us because it makes us be super efficient. Once we onboard a property, we're able to tap into that agency partner and say template A is going to go really well with this specific brand in this specific market for these specific renters. And so we're able to implement that fairly quickly, a lot faster than most companies probably can with those custom websites that they're doing. And it still has a very custom feel to it. So even though it's a template, there's still a lot of different things that you can do to make sure that it is exactly what your property needs.   So that's been really cool to do with an agency partner and it's been great to have them because they know the ins and outs of how we work. They know the lingo. Student housing lingo is very different from multifamily and any other housing sector, so they're familiar with that. They're familiar with what our renters need.   Scott Baumberger: It sounds like you're not having to reinvent the wheel every time. I mean, that's the downside of engaging with lots of different partners, right?   Alaina Jackson: You know what? I always say a lot. No need to reinvent the wheel, but there's nothing wrong with putting some new rims on it! Things change and evolve, especially in marketing, so we're able to do that. They're very tapped into what's trending in the market, so it's been very helpful.   Scott Baumberger: Very cool. So there's the geographic differences. What about differences between urban sites and suburban sites, low-rise and high-rise? How do you approach those differently?   Alaina Jackson: From a strategy standpoint, we saw some really big rent increases across the board at all of our different sites across the country. But I think for the most part, those sites that are in those tier 1 and tier 2 markets where there are big D1 universities or the household income is high, there are a lot of wealthy families in the area, things like that, we're able to go in and customize the strategy to really be able to reach those renters where they are. And so with sites that are in tier 3 markets, where the university or the college is a lot smaller, we might be servicing a trade school, something like that, we're able to go in and then customize the strategy to include maybe some extra ways to just really push the value of the property.   Most of those renters are looking for the best value, so I'd like to start there depending on which tier the market is in or what kind of property it is. For the most part, any of our properties that are in major cities—Chicago, Miami—we have some co-living deals in big major cities, we're able to hit the ground with brand awareness pretty quickly and spread it pretty quickly. Whereas in some of the other markets where we're not seeing those high-rises, they're more garden-style apartments and lots of big competitors in markets like that, we have to go in there and take our time with how we want to approach our renters and targeting. There's a wide variety of who those renters are. So we have to be a little bit more strategic in those markets because the word doesn't spread as quickly as they do in tier 1 and tier 2 high-rise in big city living. So we start with brand awareness at all deals. Doesn't matter what market or what type of property it is, but we really try to go in there and identify who our renter is, who our demographic is going to be that we're going to target, and then build the strategy that way. The marketing cost per lead and lease is obviously going to be more for development for a tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, or tier 4. A large, big-bed property just has a lot more heads that you have to get on beds in markets like that. In tier 3 markets, you don’t necessarily have to do as much to fill them out. What it’s going to do is take a little longer, but the marketing budgets are significantly smaller. For the most part, the only time they're not is if the market is not performing, and you just do a little bit more to create some urgency and get them before the deadline. But typically, we approach them all the same. We start with brand awareness and from there work our way through the leasing season. So that’s our approach: market by market.   Scott Baumberger: And I imagine the rents are reflective of the different budgets that you have as well. I can only assume.   Alaina Jackson: I can get as creative as I want. And because you're building a brand from scratch, right? It’s like a new architecture, the biggest new hot thing on the market. You really have to be thoughtful and intentional with how you spend those dollars, but it requires more to build a brand. So those budgets are always friendlier. I love a good new development,   Scott Baumberger: For sure! I’d be curious, what are you seeing in the last, say, 12-24 months? What are the things that appeal most to prospective renters when they're looking at new and existing properties?   Alaina Jackson: So I would say convenience is going to be number one. I'm seeing more and more products be heavily amenitized. And what those projects look like has changed, right? We've always had heavily amenitized properties in student housing and in multifamily for the most part. But how I'm seeing it shift is what those amenities look like. So no longer is your typical fitness center and free business center with printing enough. Our renters, both on the multifamily and student sides, are looking for podcast rooms and multipurpose rooms where they can record their own videos and things like that. Stuff that's very influencer-friendly. I don't think that that will change significantly over the next couple of years. Social media is here to stay for sure. That has definitely been a game changer in drawing in renters and what that looks like.   Every year we conduct focus groups and this year we focused on multifamily. We get some feedback from our renters on how they want to be marketed to, what they like to see, what things should be included in projects, and upcoming new development projects. Amenities ranked really high on the list, but they want things that they're actually going to use. I'm seeing that convenience be top of their list: proximity to restaurants and local hot spots, public transportation, things like that. Washers and dryers, things that really create that value for them. Because I think they're willing to pay top dollar if it's convenient and if that value is there.   We like to focus on those things. Some of the projects that we're working on for the next season and for 2026—we're already breaking ground and planning for 2026—as you know, every chance I get to make sure that that feedback is in my developer's ear. I'm like, "Hey, this has changed. We need to make sure we're multiple-room. We need to make sure we're close to public brands." So things like that are really drawing people in. That stuff really matters.   Scott Baumberger: So do you feel like it's still a pretty competitive environment out there?   Alaina Jackson: For sure. And there's some areas where we're seeing crazy saturation. Gainesville, Florida is a good example. How are people finding grass to even build in this market? Gainesville is a really good example of that. The Tempe market—we saw this really big plateau with leasing at the beginning of spring where things just stopped. And it's because renters were like, "Wait a minute, I'm not paying $1,500 a month for a four-bedroom apartment." And so renters are very sophisticated and they know what they want and they know what they're not willing to pay for. In some of the markets, it's going to be a madhouse until the end, fighting to the finish. We're seeing it so much more than in other markets.   Scott Baumberger: How do you stay on top of all of this? I'm thinking about some of the latest tech, maybe even some AI. Tell us if these things are in your arsenal and how you use them.   Alaina Jackson: Last year we made the big shift. That's what I've been calling it, the big shift, because I know a lot of companies are still doing research and trying to figure out what products fit them best. And I think that's the right thing to do, to start with research because not everything's going to fit every company. So for us, we have partnered with an AI company that is really well known. They're called Me Elite, and we have been doing some really good work with them.   So we launched the flagship AI, which was the leasing AI. And what that does is nurture all of our incoming leads. So our marketing dollars are hard at work generating quality leads and focusing on leasing. And the AI steps in and helps us focus on capturing and nurturing beyond that. And so we implemented that, and because of the success, we've seen our tours go up 20 percent. We've seen a numerous amount of leads get over the leasing finish line in a much shorter amount of time than we were seeing post-COVID. So very successful. Because of that, we are going to expand and launch some other AIs with them. AIs include maintenance and voice. The technology that they're working with is just so advanced. It is mind-blowing. I'm like, where were we when I was a leasing consultant 10 years ago? Do you know what I mean? It's so mind-blowing but super efficient and very helpful for the site teams.   It really does remove some of those tasks that they have to do. It takes that off their plate so that they can focus on the resident experience, which, as I'm sure you know, results in renewals and more leasing and just makes their lives much easier. Another really cool tool that we implemented is self-guided tours, which has been fascinating for me. I'm learning something new every day about it. But what it is, is we're partnering with Tour 24 for self-guided tours. And what it does is allow our renters, especially on the multifamily side, to be able to tour at their convenience when the office is closed or if they work really late and their schedules just don't allow for them to come in. But they really want to come take a look before they make a commitment. They are able to use an application to schedule and do that right through our website.   And it allows for the teams to input voice prompts and scripts and things like that for them without them needing an agent, which, as you know, saves our properties a lot of money. You always need a human resource there to complete. You no longer have to. That's been very beneficial for us and our partnership is really great as well. We've seen some really good conversion results because of our partnership with them. So the use of some of that technology, the results that we're getting, I've been very excited to see the shift and I think it'll only get better.   Scott Baumberger: That's great. So post-COVID, I'm seeing renters more comfortable, more site-savvy, viewing and interacting with marketing content remotely and not necessarily having to go to the site. Especially if they're a prospective student and they may not know where they're going to be living just yet. And they may not be able to do a site visit. Are you seeing that as well?   Alaina Jackson: So we do back up to those friendly budgets with new development. Have a product to show for those fields because they're getting built.   We have really good partnerships with agencies that create that content for us. They'll come out with some drone footage and utilize our renderings to really create that virtual experience for us. But yes, you're seeing more and more students and multifamily renters that may be relocating or in the process of making a housing decision but just don't have the time to be able to come in. And we have all of the necessary tools that they need right from the website to be able to still experience. Matterport tours are something that we utilize. Also, virtual tours, 360 panoramic tours—I mean, we have it all. Our floor plans are 3D for most sites if not all, so that the renter feels like, at my convenience, if this is all I can do to really understand what it's like to live at the property or to see what the floor plan options are, we try to make it as easy as possible for those different platforms. So they've been very helpful.   Scott Baumberger: Just want to follow up on that last question. Are you allocating your resources differently post-COVID as a result of the new kind of renter preferences?   Alaina Jackson: We definitely are. Both on both the multifamily and the student side. We really need to be able to meet them where they are. And so because of the technology, our teams are able to spend more time focused on the resident experience or focused on brand awareness and building the brand, making relationships in the communities that their markets, that their properties are in. So we're able to allocate their time differently. With all of the change in technology, there's so much access to reporting and things like that, things that we would typically spend a large amount of time having to dive into. I think that that's been very beneficial. That way, we can also reallocate our time into finding new rims for our tires, and that's been beneficial for us on the corporate side as well.   Scott Baumberger: That's really interesting to hear. Can you share with us a success story, something that you can point to, a particular project or a particular thing that has really been game-changing for you?   Alaina Jackson: Yeah, I actually have a favorite new development project that we brought on board this fall with our first time opening the doors, or last fall—sorry, fall 2023. So this has been our first stable year. But the property is in West Midtown Atlanta. It's a big beast, it's over 600 beds. And as you can imagine, Atlanta's a busy city. So we service Georgia Tech, but where the property is located, you're going to get a lot of young professional traffic as well as Georgia Tech because it's not right on campus—it's not far, less than a mile from campus, but this specific area is just a very busy city.   So we opened the doors, and that first year was just such a struggle. The initial reset year was a struggle because it was hard to identify who our renter was just because our amenities were great. We had some really good retail spaces. But because we did the development of the actual apartments and a different developer did the retail, the schedule got off schedule and things got crazy. Fast forward though, we were able to open the apartment complex on time while they still were able to see all the complex. But the retail still wasn't finished. So we really struggled to get to budgeted occupancy, to our goals.   And this year has been our first stabilized year. Retail is open, everything's going, and the property hit 95 percent recently, which is crazy good. It's basically leased itself because of all the hard work that went into the development and into those getting those retail spaces open and getting a really hot location in those retail spaces. They have a Starbucks, just some really cool things that attract young professionals and student renters. But the property has been a really great success this year. And they're utilizing those AI tools that I talked about. They have self-help stores. Like, Digit is like the model property spot. I'm not kidding. If you're ever in Atlanta, go to Theory Interlock. It is a beautiful project. It was really cool to watch it go from “struggle” to “glow up”.   Scott Baumberger: Yeah, it's funny, we have several projects in Atlanta right now. It's a real hotspot all of a sudden. So very exciting. I'm sure I'll get out there.   What then do you think you would attribute to the success? Is it just really good timing? That's often what it comes down to. It's a great location. What do you think really pushed it over the hurdle?   Alaina Jackson: So I think it's a few things. I think the people piece is very important. We had the right team in there from the start. They were able to get in there and be with us for the struggle of getting the timeline just right. Our development team is very intentional with the products that they build, from floor plan type all the way through materials that they're going to use, to the interior designer that they select. The location—you can't beat it for a West Midtown apartment complex. I mean, what a busy and popping area of Atlanta, and they were just able to get it right, even down to the retailers that they were able to rent out to. I just think that they were very intentional with this project, and that's what did it for sure.   Scott Baumberger: It sounds like there are a lot of lessons here that you can take away and apply to the next one.   Alaina Jackson: Yeah. That's the big idea, right?   Scott Baumberger: Awesome. Well, I could do this for another hour, but we need to start wrapping things up. So many things I've learned. Really appreciate your time and sharing your experience with us. Thank you so much, Alaina Jackson. Great to see you.   Alaina Jackson: Thanks for having me.   Scott Baumberger: Well, with that, we'll wrap things up and I will see you next time. Thank you.   Alaina Jackson: Thank you, Scott.  

Scott Baumberger: Hello and welcome to the Creative Viz podcast, where we talk about topics in architecture, development, and visual design. Today, I'm thrilled to have Mike Grill. He is a development manager with the Alliance Residential Company in Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome, Mike.   Mike Grill: Hey, Scott, how are you doing? It's good to be here.   Scott Baumberger: Awesome. Doing great. Thank you so much, Mike. Really appreciate you coming on. So, tell us a little bit about your role right now in development with Alliance.   Mike Grill: Well, my title is development manager, but I was actually brought on board because of my background in architecture. I've been doing this for almost 50 years now, but I flipped over to the dark side about 9 years ago. I have been with Alliance Residential, and I help them on the pre-development side as an in-house architect. Setting up standards and guidelines to make sure that we meet our goals and objectives on our projects.   Scott Baumberger: That's great. Well, your career evolution there, what made you decide to leave architecture for development?   Mike Grill: Well, it wasn't an easy decision. I love architecture. I found out at an early age that I was good at it. I could understand three dimensions. I took a drafting course in high school, and the first year was just mechanical drafting. The second year was architectural drawing, and that's when I fell in love with architecture and knew that that's what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. So, it wasn't an easy decision when I decided to leave architecture. But the longer you're in architecture, the less architecture you actually do. I was managing projects, managing people, but I wasn't getting to do a lot of the fun stuff. As an architect, we did multifamily residential and everybody was pointing me towards development. So, that's the next progression. I decided to give that a try and I've enjoyed it. I'm working with architects a lot more. I'm getting involved in the design a lot more. It's been a good progression for me in my career. I don't know if that's a choice for everybody, but it's worked out well for me.   Scott Baumberger: That's great. Yeah, that's a really interesting observation. The longer you're in it, the less you do?   Mike Grill: Yeah, unfortunately, it's true because your skill set becomes more about managing people, managing projects. So, you don't get to do a lot of the fun stuff or as much as you used to do. It's that the bottom line is really what you're looking at.   Scott Baumberger: I can certainly relate. That's funny. I think a lot of us in the field can. So, tell us, Alliance today is strictly residential, correct? Mike Grill: Well, Alliance as corporately, I mean, we're headquartered out in Scottsdale, Arizona. We have 19 regional offices. In Atlanta, we focus on the multifamily residential aspect of that. We do have an industrial division that's run out of the Atlanta office, but it's completely separate, so to speak. But from a corporate standpoint, we do industrial, as I said, we also do single-family rentals in addition to multifamily residential. We also have senior housing that we do in some of our divisions. We do a little bit of everything as far as rental projects are concerned.   Scott Baumberger: That's really interesting, but all rental, not any for-sale properties, as I understand it.   Mike Grill: That's correct, yes.   Scott Baumberger: Can you walk us through, a lot of diversity in project types. Would that include urban projects versus suburban projects as well?   Mike Grill: Absolutely. In the past, before COVID, we were doing a lot of infill projects and urban environments, Texas donuts, so to speak, 350 units wrapped around a parking deck. But lately, we've been focusing more on essential housing. We call it workforce housing. It's more affordable or attainable for the workforce, being teachers, nurses, fire personnel, police. That's been a focus. And in order to make those projects affordable, we've had to go outside of the city center into the suburbs to find more affordable land. These are surface-parked projects. They are three-story walk-ups, and they're a little bit simpler projects to build. So, we are able to offer those at a lower price point than our infill housing that we did prior to COVID.   Scott Baumberger: Yeah, interesting. So, I imagine speed to market is much faster for these project types as well.   Mike Grill: That's exactly right. We have a prototype. We only have two unit types. We have a one-bedroom and a two-bedroom. And as long as I've been in this business, it surprises me every time. We spend months trying to build or design the perfect unit. And there's only so many different ways you can do it. So, we actually have one typical one-bedroom unit, one typical two-bedroom unit, and that's in every project. We have a 35-unit footprint that we apply to every project. We can get our permit set pulled together in a matter of weeks. Maybe a couple of months, we're in for a permit. The permit process is a lot more streamlined in these jurisdictions that we're going into, and within 12 months is our goal to deliver the first units. I mean, we're using the same products. We don't spend a lot of time changing things up. Just different jurisdictions will require a little different approach. But, for the most part, we're trying to use our prototype and stick to the prototype and use cost-effective materials and things like that. Everything from our construction through design to entitlement, we streamline it as much as we can.   Scott Baumberger: That's great. So, how difficult is it to adapt the prototype to these different markets that you might be in? I know Alliance is active in pretty much the whole country. Mike Grill: Right. It's pretty easy. Every jurisdiction is a little bit different. They've got their zoning requirements. Some want more brick than others. Our prototype is basically, we use a lot of cementitious panels. Hardy panels, for example, are very durable. And with the different patterns and things, you can create some really interesting buildings. But every once in a while, people get caught up on brick. They say it's got to be brick, and we'll adjust accordingly. But we try to do our due diligence upfront and find jurisdictions that are accepting of what we're trying to achieve and that it's more of an affordable or attainable product. Now, when we start adding brick to a project, especially if it's 100 percent brick, the cost goes up. And of course, the rent goes up. It's just the way it is.   Scott Baumberger: Yeah. So, how do you approach site selection then? Do you go in with the mindset of this is going to be a workforce housing project, or this is going to be a market rate project?   Mike Grill: Generally, we do. I mean, we do our homework as much as we can and try to source sites. Obviously, the biggest factor is just land area. I mean, we could do a 350-unit deal in an urban area on one acre, whereas we need 20 to 30 acres somewhere if we're going to do workforce housing. So, the sites are much bigger. And they're vastly different products when you get right down to the core of things. It's not as if we could go in looking at a site and say, this site will work for our Broadstone product, which is our market rate apartments, versus our PROS product, which is our attainable housing product.   Scott Baumberger: Gotcha. Yeah.   Mike Grill: Two separate animals.   Scott Baumberger: It sounds like two separate processes and sites. So, what does the picture look like for the market rate projects right now? Do you see any signs of life?   Mike Grill: There's certainly signs of life. It depends upon the site, but you've got to have a story to tell. That's what we always look for when we're looking to develop a project. Certainly, if it's got a compelling story, it's a lot more desirable to our equity partners and able to get financing for those projects as opposed to just, hey, there's this great site, and we know we can make it work. Come along on the journey.   Scott Baumberger: That's not enough.   Mike Grill: It's not enough. Scott Baumberger: It has gotten much more competitive just within the last couple of years.   Mike Grill: Oh, yeah. Unfortunately, I'm gonna use the dirty word, and that's interest rates. People want to say, oh, interest rates are so high. And it's not really that they're high per se. Traditionally or historically, they're still low. It's just that they're unsettled. So, when they're unsettled like this, you've got capital that's sitting on the sidelines. They're looking for the best deal. They want the best deal, and they can ask for the best deal. They want to put their money to work, but they're able to sit back and pick and choose, essentially. The competition is a lot stiffer right now to find the right location, the right story, the right mix to get these projects across the finish line.   Scott Baumberger: Do you feel like you're competing with these investors? That they might invest in something not real estate at all, and they're trying to decide, should I invest in real estate? Should I invest in something else?   Mike Grill: No, most of these people are real estate investors. That's where they're putting their money. They're not trying to compete with other markets. It's usually people that we work with over and over again. There are proven relationships there. We enjoy working with the same people, and they hire us because they trust us because we can lower the risk for them and make the product as valuable to them and their investors as possible.   Scott Baumberger: So over the last, say, 18 to 24 months, they've been staying on the sidelines?   Mike Grill: For the most part, they're tentative. With the volatility of the market right now, and more interest rates, not knowing—it's not that they're high. It's not that people feel like they'll settle down at some point, but they don't know when they're going to settle down. They still haven't, and it's higher for longer is the current trend. Everybody's just waiting because there is definitely a demand for multifamily housing or rental housing, single-family rentals as well. The American dream has changed a little bit. The cost of homeownership is a little high for most people right now, so they're having to turn to rental options. The other thing too is that the younger generation, they don't value homeownership as much. They don't want to have to worry about cutting grass or fixing the air conditioning equipment. And if they get a call from somebody in California who says, hey, I want you to work out here, they don't want to have to sell a house. They want to pick up and go, so that's driving a lot of the demand. The demand hasn't gone away, and rents have started to cool down, but we see them starting to jump up a little bit because it's supply and demand. The rents were rising at a precipitous pace, then interest rates went up, so things kind of cooled. There's not as much product, and there's a lot coming to market right now, which has kept rents somewhat stabilized. But as soon as that burns off and there's more demand, there's not enough supply. The rates will start going back up.   Scott Baumberger: Yeah, that's really interesting. I've heard that some markets, Sun Belt markets, are starting to see some oversupply. But there's been this gap in development, so whatever's on the ground now is going to be on the ground in 2026 or even 2027 until new projects move forward. Are you seeing that in your world?   Mike Grill: We're not quite caught up here in Atlanta yet. In most of the markets we're in, they enjoyed a very large increase over the last several years that we've had to absorb. But the one thing about the markets we're in, the Sun Belt, is they're all growing, and people are continuing to move to these locations. So, it's just a matter of time before they release the stock that's out there now, and then there becomes more competition for what's available. It'll start to rise again. Simple supply and demand economics.   Scott Baumberger: So I understand that Alliance, particularly your group, is a merchant builder. So that means that when you complete the project, you sell it to a management company or an asset holder. Tell us about that process, what you look for, and how it works.   Mike Grill: As a merchant builder, we build all of our own stuff and find equity partners on these projects, which are larger companies that invest in these projects. Our investment, as well as our reward when we do sell these projects, is small. But what we do for these larger investors is take their money and build a successful project that we generally sell when it becomes stabilized. That's about 85 percent leased. We've sold projects before the day we got our CO. We do Class A projects. It's very nice. It's quality stuff. We use the same partners over and over again. It just depends on the project. It's always different. But at the same time, we find ourselves partnering with the same people over and over again because we've proven that it works, and it's been very successful for us. It's a good formula. Alliance is well known throughout the country, and so the name means something.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely. That's really interesting. So, if there is such a thing as a typical amount of time, how long do you tend to hold the project?   Mike Grill: We generally project two years to get to that point. It depends upon the market, the environment. There's a lot of factors that go into that, but generally speaking, it's about two years before a market rate deal is stabilized.   Scott Baumberger: And has it been more difficult lately to market these projects? I'm imagining you market workforce housing very differently than you might a market rate urban project.   Mike Grill: Yes, that's true. Our workforce housing renter is not as sophisticated, perhaps, as a market rate renter. They don't do as much research online, whereas our market rate deals, those people do a lot of research online. They're looking at click rates. We track all that stuff to determine who's looking, how long they're looking. If they're not looking long enough, we're not doing something right. Engagement is what we try to target for those renters. But it's true of all of our projects. The engagement just might not be on a website per se for these more suburban ones. We'll put out a billboard, we'll do signage at the entrance to attract people. Don't do the funny dancing men, though.   Scott Baumberger: Hopefully it won't come to that!   Mike Grill: No, exactly. But marketing is a huge part of it, and we budget accordingly. It is our website renderings. We try to get pictures as soon as we can. The funny thing about renderings is we found we used to do them for marketing, but they're much better as a design and construction tool because we can talk all we want about the finishes and the high ceiling. But if it's in a rendering, it's like, okay, now I get it. And they see the coffers, and we've got the lights hanging down, and the ins and outs. We do renderings on the interior spaces. The units are a big one, and we show furniture. We actually do model units because until they see it with furniture in it, they can walk into a unit and it looks really nice. But the model units are very popular, and we do them on all our projects, including our workforce housing.   Scott Baumberger: Oh, that's interesting. So, you build a physical model unit on every project?   Mike Grill: Yeah, we take one unit and it's reserved as a model until we get to a hundred percent. We might look at leasing it.   Scott Baumberger: Yeah, that's great. Certainly in my world, the ability to predict how a space is really, truly going to look and feel has been game-changing for marketing campaigns. There used to be a lot of guesswork, and you would caveat things. Oh, this is an artist's impression. Don't get too caught up in it. But now it's so realistic.   Mike Grill: It's amazing. And that's what truly brings the point home. It's so important to what we do.   Scott Baumberger: That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. Are there any other success stories that you might share with us? We talked about how the workforce housing is working really well for you. Is there anything specific you can point to in that regard?   Mike Grill: Well, there is one thing that we've created here at Alliance. It's actually a proprietary platform that we created to purchase products. We've been able to take advantage of national contracts and really get the best price for the projects that we put into our workforce housing so that it streamlines the process to the point where we don't have to worry about what kind of plumbing fixture we're going to use or what kind of light fixture we're going to use. It's already set up. De Lovo is the program. It's spelled D-O-L-O-V-O, and we're actually offering that outside of the Alliance. We do have third-party contractors using this as well because it's been well received. When we talk about how we're able to reduce pricing, we're buying in bulk essentially. So, the more people we have involved, the better the deals get. We've tried to streamline it, and that's what a lot of developers struggle with—trying to streamline the process. I wouldn't say that it's a perfect fit for the Broadstone product. Each one of those is different. We gear it differently. The story's different. Not that the story is not different for our workforce housing, but it's a lot easier to control costs if we can get down to the types of light fixtures we're putting in every project, the flooring, the appliances. All these things add up over time, and it's truly amazing. We're seeing a 40 to 50 cent improvement in pricing per square foot.   Scott Baumberger: Yeah, wow. That's impressive.   Mike Grill: It's huge. It's allowed our workforce housing to just explode. It's probably 65 percent of our product today.   Scott Baumberger: Wow, congratulations. That's really great. As I'm hearing this, I'm thinking through some of the supply chain issues that we've had over the last, say, three or four years. Is this something that helps with just getting equipment on the ground at the right time?   Mike Grill: Well, it's interesting that you say that because when we first pursued this, part of it came out of the frustrations with the supply chain and being able to get materials in a timely fashion. We looked at windows, for example. We were having trouble getting windows, and it was because the glass was kind of sparse for a while. If we just had a warehouse full of windows, they could be shipped tomorrow, and that's not really the model we wanted to create. It became more of a purchasing platform than a warehousing platform, but that may be an extension of the De Lovo brand at some point. Those problems went away pretty quickly. We're not having too many troubles getting our hands on materials right now, but that was kind of the genesis in a lot of ways, with the thought process when we developed this purchasing platform.   Scott Baumberger: It's so interesting. Everybody is trying to solve this in a different way. Sounds like you figured it out.   Mike Grill: Well, it's worked pretty well for us.   Scott Baumberger: That's fantastic. Hey, thank you so much, Mike. It's been great having you on. I really appreciate your insights today. Super encouraged to hear about affordable housing. It's near and dear to my heart here, and I really appreciate what you're doing. Thank you so much.   Mike Grill: Thank you.   Scott Baumberger: With that, we'll wrap things up, and I'll see you next time.  

Scott Baumberger: Hello and welcome to the Creative Viz podcast, where we discuss topics in architecture, development, and urban design. Today I'm really pleased to have Margo Utter with us on the podcast. She is a development manager with Stiles Development in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Welcome, Margo. Really glad to have you on.   Margo Utter: Yes, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and dive deeper.   Scott Baumberger: Tell us how things are going so far in 2024?   Margo Utter: Very heavy focus on multifamily. I'm with the Stiles residential group, but we have several different development divisions here at Stiles. For 2024, it's crazy that we're right about halfway through the year. It always surprises you. It's certainly not been as robust of a market as we were all expecting. We hit some bumpy times in 2023, and everyone was looking for relief in 2024 in the interest rates and for rent growth to stay strong. It certainly hasn't been the fruitful year with light at the end of the tunnel that we were expecting. I think we're still very much in the "survive until 2025" stage. However, there are peaks of light here and there, and we're still very fortunate to be working in some of the strongest multifamily markets in the U.S. So, not the best, but staying hopeful.   Scott Baumberger: You're hanging in there. I've heard that term a lot, "survive till 2025." That's funny, I can certainly relate. But, if you can tell me, what's some of the appeal behind multifamily, and any particulars that you might be able to share with us, not just in South Florida, but I understand Stiles is very active throughout the Southeast.   Margo Utter: Yes, particularly for myself, I always had such a strong interest in multifamily to begin with. When I was first getting exposure to just the development world in general, you're creating a space that there's going to be an end user living in. It's all about lifestyle, constantly thinking, "How is someone going to use this space? How is someone going to live here?" There are so many interesting aspects to that, both physical and psychological, thinking about the different renter profiles. It's very interesting, especially to see how it evolves and to be on the forefront of lifestyle and how people live since we have such a large renter market right now.   Going into why multifamily has been such a strong asset class, people always need a place to live, regardless of the desire to eventually own an asset and build equity. There's always going to be a class of people who are going to be renters, either because they don't have the means to buy a house or they want more flexibility. That's when the multifamily space becomes very desirable. Right now, it's difficult to purchase a home or a townhouse, a condo, whatever it may be. It doesn't matter whether you're a young individual like myself, recently out of school, or even people in their mid to late 30s, it's still very challenging for housing to be attainable. That's where multifamily comes in. You compare the cost of a monthly mortgage payment to rent, and even in a strong urban market where rents are high, it still makes more sense to rent. That's what creates such a strong market for us in multifamily, especially in the Southeast region.   Scott Baumberger: You're primarily developing rental properties as opposed to for sale. Is that correct?   Margo Utter: Correct. We have, in the past, developed condos. I believe that's how our group started over 10 years ago. We were condo developers. We have a few of those in our Rolodex, but recently we've been more known as multifamily developers. The condo market and for-sale property is not out of the picture. It's something we constantly circle around, especially in markets like we're dealing with right now. It's definitely a multifamily rental-focused group, but there's an eye on the potential for condos on the horizon.   Scott Baumberger: I think you touched on the difficulty with affordability. Can you tell us what opportunities there are for affordable housing development, particularly in South Florida? You mentioned the Live Local Act. Can you tell us a little more about that?   Margo Utter: Affordability is not only an issue in Florida, it's worldwide. It's a top conversation in many markets in the U.S., and obviously, we're talking about it in Florida. Counties and cities across Florida are having discussions about it being a priority. Unfortunately, the cost of living, groceries, everyday life, and insurance have all added to the difficulty. Affordable housing comes up during the entitlement process when you're starting new projects. There's an opportunity for local governments to ask developers to include affordable housing. It's a large can of worms to open, and it's important to have these conversations. It's not a straightforward road ahead; there are several factors to consider.   In South Florida, there's such a demand for housing with a large influx of people since COVID. The demand for housing has led to rent rises that supply can't keep up with. In our Fort Lauderdale market, the demand is being fulfilled by the supply, but rents are stabilizing at high levels. It's challenging to achieve affordable housing for certain individuals. Unfortunately, it's very hard for any developer to commit to affordable properties because it impacts the bottom line and makes development more difficult. There has to be collaboration when it comes to expectations of affordable housing. There are developers who specialize in affordable products, building cost-efficient, well-designed properties in less expensive locations. It's challenging to ask a developer to include a significant affordable component in a high-cost urban area.   Scott Baumberger: Interesting. Speed to market can be quicker with affordable projects or components versus pure market rate. Have you seen anything like that in South Florida?   Margo Utter: Yes, I've heard of that concept. It's developing in certain municipalities. Time is money, and expedited permitting and entitlement periods are attractive. We've had discussions about it in certain cities. The hard part is defining what expedited means. It’s valuable if it can cut the time significantly, but a few weeks might not be enough to make a difference. The city needs to be capable of making the process expedited to help developers financially. It's a great concept, but we need to see it in action. We hope to see more work on that soon.   Scott Baumberger: Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to learn more about Stiles as a group. I understand you have unique characteristics in your approach to development, particularly being full-service. Tell us how that works for you and how it affects the development process.   Margo Utter: Stiles is a family company and a full-service real estate company. We work together uniquely, and it's one of the reasons I love working here. We have a development and acquisitions arm, construction, architecture, financial services, tenant improvement project management, property management, and leasing and brokerage. Development touches construction and financial services the most. We outsource multifamily management to companies like Greystar. Our construction team handles most of our projects in South Florida, but we also work with other contractors for projects in other regions. Collaboration is everything, and we work as a family, supporting each other.   Scott Baumberger: Does having an internal development team help with the overall development timeline by eliminating the bidding process?   Margo Utter: Yes, it does. We have set contracts with our construction team, and having expectations outlined in the past cuts off a good chunk of time. There's still a bidding process with subcontractors, but working in each other's best interest is valuable. We may not get the absolute best pricing deal compared to bidding out to multiple contractors, but the benefits outweigh the negatives. It's a fun collaboration.   Scott Baumberger: In a hot market like South Florida, are there bottlenecks, labor supply issues? Does having an internal team help with some of those problems?   Margo Utter: Labor is still quite high, and commodity prices are softening a bit. Labor costs are still a significant chunk of overall costs. It's a challenge for all of us, making projects pencil with rising hard costs. Costs have gone up 50% or more compared to three years ago, while rents haven't increased at the same rate. It's a moving target, and we hope to see some relief in the future.   Scott Baumberger: Do you have a recent project that you classify as a lesson learned or success story?   Margo Utter: We recently brought one of our projects out to market, and it looks like it will transact soon. We locked in our GMP at a decent time, and we'll do well on it. There were lessons learned, such as implementing a radon filtration system that turned out to be necessary. If we hadn't planned for it, it would have cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars to retrofit. We also learned the importance of adding more co-working space to our projects due to the rise of work-from-home trends.   Scott Baumberger: Lastly, tell us about your initiatives in South Florida to increase opportunities for women in the development industry.   Margo Utter: I'm involved with the South Florida CREW chapter and ULI Urban Land Institute's Women's Leadership Initiative. We're working on setting up a mentorship program to get students involved. I have a passion for interacting with students and encouraging females to consider the development industry. It's important to have diversity in the industry, and I hope to continue empowering young women to know there's a space for them at the table.   Scott Baumberger: Thank you, Margo, for joining us today. I really appreciate your insights. It's been a fantastic conversation. Thanks for your time today, and we'll see you next time.   Margo Utter: Awesome. Thanks, Scott

Scott Baumberger: Hello, and welcome to the creative viz podcast where we discuss topics in architecture, development, and visual design. Today I'm speaking with Jason Moshe Zuki. He's with the NRP group in Charlotte, North Carolina. Working as a VP in development. Welcome, Jason great to see you.   Jason Moshizuki: Scott, thank you very much for having me on. It's a pleasure to be here.   Scott Baumberger: Great. Thank you so much. I'd love to hear a little bit more about NRP. I understand you guys are focusing on housing, but love to hear more about what you guys are doing.    Jason Moshizuki: Absolutely. The NRP group, we were founded in the mid nineties at Cleveland, Ohio. We're a national multifamily development firm. Were now currently in 17 different states. We recently expanded to Phoenix and Las Vegas. Out West we're extremely active in the Midwest and the Southeast.   We have a very large regional office in Texas, and we have some offices in the Mid Atlantic and the Northeast as well. NRP Actually started its firm life as an affordable housing developer. NRP stands for Neighborhood Revitalization Partners. Kind of around the mid, early 2000s, we transitioned to market rate housing as well, and we now cover kind of the full spectrum of multifamily. I think to date we've developed over 50, 000 units. We've built, pretty close to 40, 000 or a little bit over that at this point, with a similar number of units kind of currently under management. We've really expanded pretty heavily here in North Carolina over the last couple of years.   I've been our developer basically since 2017. NRP hired me ran out of business school in 2014, been here about 10 years. It's pretty incredible because it doesn't seem like it's been that long. I started out as a development project manager at NRP primarily closing debt and equity, working on low income housing tax credit applications, rezonings, budget management.   It was a really good, solid training program to kind of segue into my role now. Around 2017, as I mentioned my manager now was covering, I think, about four to five different states, and just given the growth of this area and everything that was happening on the economic development front there was a desire at the executive level at NRP to bring someone here, more full time, and I was sort of the beneficiary of that.   What I've really enjoyed so far as VP in my current role now is the NRP has given me the opportunity to develop both market rate and affordable projects under the low income housing tax credit program. I'll abbreviate that as LIHTC, but that at NRP, as in most shops, that's usually kind of two different functions.   Based on my earlier role as a development project manager in my experience with the QAP, I was able to do both. And kind of early in my career, I would say I've definitely spent more of my time on the LIHTC side. Between 2018 and 2022 we developed four projects here in the city of Charlotte, 4 percent bond deals.   As of late, we've definitely transitioned more towards the market rate side of things. We continue to work on both. Now, given some of the challenges that you cover on your podcast and that many of the folks who listen to this are well aware with interest rates and costs and just kind of the prevailing environment.   We've definitely started looking at a third option called attainable housing, which is more of what we would determine as kind of the missing middle workforce housing, moderate income housing. It's a topic that a lot of different shops, competitors, NRP and peers and government folks are talking about just because it's such a need.   We have housing for the very lower end of people that are making low income type wages. Then we have the high end class A infill stuff. We're trying to do a better job, particularly in areas that have massive economic growth, like the triangle of trying to find housing for the workforce.   So the people that serve this area can live in this community. That's been something that we've been spending a lot of time on lately. And that's probably what I'm most excited about going forward here in 24 and 25.   Scott Baumberger: Awesome. That's really great. When I think of the missing middle, I'm thinking of ADUs. I'm thinking of duplexes, triplexes, still fairly small, modest developments. Is that what you're involved with?   Jason Moshizuki: That's a really important distinction because that is something like the city of Charlotte passed a new UDO a couple years ago. The ADU thing has been a big topic of conversation here at the municipal level. It is certainly a great way to expand the number of units that duplexes and triplexes. We originally got rid of single family zoning here in the city. Most properties could be duplexes and triplexes, and I think they're evaluating that going forward as a policy now. When I mentioned attainable housing from kind of the NRP program, essentially, it is a market rate type project, there's no tax credits, there's no public subsidies, so to speak, and these are multifamily buildings, traditionally garden style, 3 story type products, surface parking.   I would say relative to a project in south end Charlotte, for instance, that's a wrap or structured parking with urban infill type deal with really high end class a finishes and amenities. This is probably, I would say an a plus, I would say attainable housing is more kind of like an a minus where we offer very similar amenities, very similar finishes, but it's maybe a little bit stripped down a little bit more modest. The units are a little bit smaller. The amenity spaces are a little bit smaller, but it's still a very high quality product, but due to those cost efficiencies that we're generating from those design efficiencies, we are able to offer rents at a lower level than, kind of a pure class A type deal.   Scott Baumberger: Yeah, interesting. the unit mix then somewhat different as you compare attainable versus market rate?   Jason Moshizuki: It is usually. On most of our market rate deals, for instance, we have a balance of one bedrooms, two bedrooms and three bedrooms. On the base level attainable product. It's typically mostly just ones and twos. We have an attainable plus concept that does incorporate three bedroom units and does have some added, amenity type features unit finish type features to make the product more consistent with what's in that market currently.   I would say the baseline attainable product is roughly 50 50 between one bedrooms and two bedrooms, but there is some, obviously, variation depending on the site context.   Scott Baumberger: Sure and then, as we compare both of these options with quote, unquote, affordable housing, obviously, the financing, the tax incentives, et cetera, those are all very different up front, but at the end of the day, how do they compare, visually and in terms of livability, are they markedly different from the other types of affordable housing?   Jason Moshizuki: Yeah, I would say if you were to come visit city of Charlotte and see our 4 percent light tech projects, I don't think the average person would be able to look at that and say, that's an affordable development, based on the design requirements of the state's qualified allocation plan.   And other requirements that we have through the City of Charlotte that provides municipal gap financing. This is a very high end affordable product. The elevations look very nice. We have granite countertops in our units. We have many of the same overlapping features to market rate.   I guess the difference is there's very specific design requirements that are laid out that we have to do for affordable. So I definitely think those projects are going to look more similar to one another relative an NRP product versus like a cross and southeast product versus a Laurel Street. It's going to be a little bit more similar just because we have to abide by the same design requirements.   Don't think somebody that is not a housing expert would be able to go in notice that.   Scott Baumberger: That's a good thing. I'd be curious about the speed to market. Do you find that the financing, the regulatory aspects of qualifying for affordable housing, does that tend to slow down the development process, or maybe it speeds it up. does that compare with something that you were going to develop on its own market rate?   Jason Moshizuki: That's a really good question. I would say with an affordable development , you operate on a cycle of applications typically. So we have a pretty good idea about how long it's going to take. We know when you have to apply for the tax credits, we know when you have to apply for the gap financing and under the 4 percent program, it's non competitive.   So right now, we don't have a volume cap issue with bonds yet in the state of North Carolina. And so if you apply and you're meeting all your threshold requirements, you're probably going to get those And so typically after we apply, we would start our design process, moving towards full permitting.   So you have a pretty good idea about how long this whole process is going to take typically, and in places like Charlotte and places like Raleigh, I definitely think that Council in their respective cities has made affordable development priority. You have better odds of achieving rezoning approval in those specific markets.   With market rate there's a little bit more variability. Right now, I would say, given what we're seeing in the capital markets, very high interest rates and things like that. It is more challenging to capitalize these projects. For affordable deals, you still have a lot of banks that need CRA credit and things like that.   So, you're not having a bottleneck as far as getting debt, things like that. That's more straightforward. I would say on the market rate and attainable side of things, there's definitely is a lot of capital that wants to be deployed, but obviously it's a challenging environment.   We're seeing in a lot of markets that both locally here in North Carolina other markets elsewhere in the nation that NRP operates, equity is becoming a little bit more challenging right now. And so we're probably starting that process a little bit earlier, than we would in a more typical market.   The good news is we've been operating for a long time and we have a lot of good capital partners and capital relationships that we've developed over the years. So we're still able to capitalize our projects, but it is taking a little bit longer in this environment than I think we've historically seen.   Scott Baumberger: yeah, that's really interesting. Thanks for sharing that with us. I'm curious we're contrasting market to affordable. Does that play out in terms of your site selection? I imagine you go look at a site and you say, okay, this is primed for an affordable project, or this particular site is clearly ready for a market project instead.   Jason Moshizuki: There's definitely a lot of commonalities in site selection in terms of the amenities you want to be by, employment centers, those sorts of things between both product types. But on the affordable side there's a very specific set of criteria that, generally speaking, you have to meet in order to qualify for tax credits and to qualify for municipal gap financing.   Kind of a baseline criteria is proximity to neighborhood amenities. For example, you want to be within roughly a mile of a grocery store, a pharmacy, neighborhood retail, schools. Transit is obviously big plus, which has been sort of a guiding light for us in both market rate and affordable developments here.   There's some very specific demographic and locational details that you need to meet to select these projects. Probably what's less known is that there's something called qualified census tract for affordable developments. I think the definition of a qualified census tract, it's a term by HUD.   Technically the definition is something like, 40 percent of the folks that live in that census tract are at 60 percent AMI or below area median income. But you get a basis boost for being located in these specific census tracts. So the ideal 4 percent site that you would want to find would be something that meets all those locational details, proximity to those amenities.   And would also be located within a qualified census tract. There's certain features that municipalities prioritize like access to transit. I would say three of the four, LIHTC deals we've done in the city of Charlotte have all been located very proximate to the light rail system here, the blue line.   If you have that in your back pocket, when you're trying to pitch this deal to the cities to get You have a big advantage, generally speaking. On the market rate side of things, you still want to be close to all these great amenities, but I think the first thing you're looking towards is probably more rents.   You have a model that you're trying to hit certain targets. Return metrics and you have a rent in mind for whatever concept that you have. you take a look at the rent comps and you see that there is one comp or two comps or three comps that are located within X distance from the site.   And that kind of gives you a baseline to know that there's a market there. Then you start your search, looking further out towards, what else is close by? What are the major employers, how quickly can I get to the employment center? How close is transit? Those sorts of things.   There's a theme that I've heard a lot of people talk about in the last couple of years, where housing pretty much at all the different levels is becoming more commoditized, I guess you would say. There's kind of a sameness due to housing code and things like that. The one thing obviously that you can't replicate is the neighborhood and the amenities that are around it and how that makes living there a better experience for the residents.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely. That's really interesting. Thanks for walking us through that as well. I understand NRP you manage the properties as well once they're developed. How would you manage the different types of properties differently or what is your approach to the different types I should say?    Jason Moshizuki: So yes we are vertically integrated. Our management team, we have a market rate management team and we have an affordable management team. The reason why that is, is because on the affordable side, during lease up, there's an income qualification process. In the city of Charlotte, despite a lot of resources that politicians and everybody else, the private business community has put in, obviously, it's a very fast growing area, there's a fair amount of gentrification in these neighborhoods and rents have gone up here a lot over the last couple of years.   We do still have pretty significant affordable housing shortage here, which is not a Charlotte problem. It's an everywhere kind of problem. There really is no shortage of folks that want to live in these properties because it's affordable and it's high quality.   The first day that we go live on leasing for a lot of these properties, we might have A thousand people show up or a thousand people apply on just day one for 180 to 200 unit project. The problem necessarily isn't filling that building. It's making sure that everybody who's applying fits those and background check type requirements.   It's a little bit of a different process and it's very closely monitored regulated by the North Carolina, housing finance agency and the city and various other stakeholders in the process. There's just a lot more regulations and rules and things like that. You need to follow that those folks are well versed and well aware of. On the market rate side of things we're at this year, and 2025, we're basically hitting a 50 year high in supply charlotte. pretty sure the triangle is similar right now.   You have roughly double the amount of units coming online. Right now there's a lot of competition on the management and lease upside.   You're definitely seeing a little bit more concessions and things like that. I definitely think that management is having to get more creative in such a competitive type of environment. On the affordable side, you're trying to make sure you're qualifying and following the rules.    On the other side, on the market rate, you're trying to make sure that you're competitive with everyone else that's also trying to lease up. That's some of the topical differences.   Scott Baumberger; Yeah. That's really interesting. I suspect it's taking a bit longer to lease up these buildings where we're not really used seeing that on the ground?   Jason Moshizuki: Yes, we Don't have any market rate projects right now. We have 2 market rate deals under construction right now. The 1st of which is going to start leasing early next year. But, we've started leasing some affordable products that we're finishing construction on right now, and leasing is going very, very well, so far as we expected it would, but it's going to be an interesting 2025 for market rate leasing, I think.   Scott Baumberger: I was about to ask, is there a risk of oversupply? I mean, it sounds like rents could potentially drop a little bit if all of the supply is hitting at Jason Moshizuki: Yeah, I would say right now, the city of Charlotte is projected to drop roughly four and a half percent or thereabouts this year by year end. I think that my opinion and I think a lot of opinions of my peers and other folks that are here is that we still have really good underlying fundamentals here in Charlotte and in a lot of the major metropolitan areas of North Carolina. We still have really good employment growth, still have great population growth. Charlotte has, I think something like 112 people moving here every day. Triangle Raleigh Durham has a little bit less, but proportionate per capita it's on similar levels. So I think long term, the future is very bright here.   I think most people think that 2024 and 2025 are going to be sort of speed bumps on what is otherwise going to be continuing to be a great run. I think it's going to take us longer to absorb the existing oversupply that we're seeing right now. I think that rents may be slightly off from what was projected at closing in a lot of these models, but longterm, definitely think that these properties will be well positioned for success.   I'm looking forward to seeing how we do.   Scott Baumberger: yeah, me too. I can see historically, even though if there's small dip, the rents do tend to rise over time. That's just natural how do you find that sweet spot of, we want to get just the right amount of supply out there so that we don't repeat this dynamic again, two, three years with the next cycle?    Jason Moshizuki: That's a very difficult getting the timing of the market, right. Is always very difficult I think that right now, for instance, something that's come up a lot, just in conversation with other developers and, the higher levels of executive leadership NRP is that, when things are going good. Things are going gangbusters, like they were in , 22, for instance. There's a lot of competition for sites. probably overpaying. You're agreeing to take risks the purchase and sales agreement that you might not otherwise by waiving certain contingencies or closing faster than you would want to do ideally.   I think right now, for instance, where we're at a point in time where high interest rates and costs and various other things are slowing production here pretty significantly this year. Now it's kind of the time to start, for lack of a better word, trying to reload your pipeline, trying to find Good sites. Sites that may have dropped or that may have been coming back from developers that agreed to those overly aggressive terms when times were good and then got down the road and they were not able to capitalize the deal So think we're trying to use this time this bit of a market law, I guess you would say, to reevaluate where we want our properties to be. Where there's opportunities and where we can find favorable, land deals.   So when market turns in a year and two years that we're ready to go. The thing about institutional development is that it's a long process, you well know. I mean, most of the life cycles of these deals from the time that we find it to the time that we start moving people in the buildings, that could be four or five years depending on what the situation is.  Sometimes you have to look for the bright side when you're dealing with temporary setbacks. So that's certainly what we're trying to do at NRP. Scott Baumberger: Yeah. like to say it's like an eternal optimist, cause we're always looking out several years the future. You have to believe that the market's going to be there because got to make it happen today.   Jason Moshizuki: Absolutely. Yeah, when times are bad, people are overly pessimistic, and when times are good, people are overly optimistic, right?   Scott Baumberger: For sure. Well, thank you so much for that. Jason. Love to wrap up with a recent, win or success that you and your team may have had. Is there anything like that, that you can share with us?   Jason Moshizuki: Sure. We're working on our first attainable project in the state of North Carolina. I talked about this a little bit at the top of the call, but it's something that we're really excited about. We're entering sort of a new market for us, I guess you'd say, Selma in Johnston County. We have a project that we're working on.   Johnston County is something that's been on my radar for a couple of years . I think in the last 10 years, Johnston County has been the fastest growing county in the state of North Carolina. They have tons of job growth. They have a lot of fortune 500 companies in the area.   Nova Nordisk, I think has a 4 billion plant that they have that they're making Ozempic, Wigovi, and I think they have a plan to invest another 4 billion into that. They have other biotech and advanced manufacturing, type businesses out there. It's definitely an area where. You haven't seen as much multifamily development in the past but I definitely think that just given the growth of those industries that we're talking about and where those wages fall relative to our target tenant profile for attainable is very favorable.   It's definitely. new and good in the sense that we're working with the town and they've been great so far. It's a much less formal process, I guess you'd say, relative to some of the bigger areas. You can just call somebody up and talk to them and get an answer pretty quickly.   I think the attainable concept has been something we've been trying to execute here for a long time, but we haven't found quite the right site. And I think that Based on the way that Johnson County and Selma and Clayton and some of the other areas, other cities in Johnson County developing out and just how the overflow growth from places like Raleigh and Durham are shaking out, in another, two years when this is built, I think it's going to be really well positioned for success.   Scott Baumberger: that's great. Definitely one to watch. I was not aware the scale of the investment that you're talking about. That's really impressive.   Well with that I really want to thank you, Jason, for coming on. Really appreciate the insights today. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I'll see you guys next time. Thanks so much.

Scott Baumberger: Hello and welcome to the creative viz podcast, where we discuss topics in architecture, development, and visual design. Today, I'm thrilled to have Landen Burcham. He is a development manager with Denton Floyd real estate group in Louisville. Welcome Landen, it's great to see you.   Landen Burcham: Hey, Scott. Good morning. Thanks for having me.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on.    I understand you do a lot of work in multifamily development. I was intrigued by your background in city planning and how that took you towards the development side of things. Can you walk us through that a little bit?   Landen Burcham: Sure, I have an interest in city planning. I took a course in undergraduate called urban economics. I was studying public policy and economics at the time and started looking into a graduate program and city planning and urban planning. I decided to apply for it, and to do a dual program.   I got a master's in public policy, and a master's in city planning. Learned the ins and outs of land use, the history of housing, housing policy, and some real estate development. I took a few internships and one of those was at a local nonprofit that, was a affordable housing developer.   I started there last year of my planning program, and really enjoyed the process of developing housing. Never really thought that I would be a real estate developer or a practitioner. I always thought that I would go work for a municipality, or HUD more on the policy side of things. But, really fell in love with real estate development. I've been doing that for the past decade.   Scott Baumberger: That's great, thank you. That's super interesting. You mentioned affordable housing, that's such an important topic. Such a dire need for affordable housing throughout the country. Tell us, how's it going? What sort of initiatives do you undertake as you're developing affordable housing? Landen Burcham: In my world, affordable housing is mostly created through the use of state, federal, local, funding sources that lend themselves to a capital stack to develop the actual housing. Then on the back end, the income is restricted. It's restricted to certain area needed income.   It creates a 30 year period in which the project has to be restricted to those income groups post construction and lease up. There's naturally affordable housing as well. Housing in markets where, rents are just kind of naturally affordable. It might be an older product, older building. For the most part, I deal in new construction or adaptive reuse of structures, and we use those resources to put together funding source to get projects done and then they're restricted to an income group.   Most of that is through the federal program that's allocated by state agencies called the, Low Income Housing Tax Credit Program. It's a very competitive program. There were 4 percent and 9 percent tax credits that are allocated in Kentucky through the Kentucky Housing Corporation.   Every state has their own agency that allocates these credits. The federal government allocates the credits to the states, based on a per capita calculation. I believe that just increased, which is good news. That means more credits are coming to the states for the development of more projects.   The 9% credit is hyper competitive. There's a competitive application that's usually annual. The 4 percent is starting to be more competitive, especially in coastal markets. These credits are awarded to developer to use for a specific project. partner with somebody who needs those tax credits because they have a tax liability.   It could be a bank, insurance company, private investor, syndicator, they purchase the credits and then they give you equity, which you use to put into the project to build the project. It's a pretty complicated finance source and it's very competitive. For the past, you know, since the late eighties, that's really our most affordable housing in the United States has been built.   Kind of gotten away from the federally funded housing projects through HUD. It's more of a viewable public, private, endeavor now. That's how we build most of our affordable housing. On the local side, a lot of municipalities have been funding and creating local affordable housing trust funds. In Kentucky, I believe there are two largest cities. Those are extremely valuable. Most of the projects that we've been building lately have utilized those funds and they're usually in the form of a grant or a loan, in their low interest or, zero percent interest. Extremely valuable resources to help with tax grant developments or to subsidize just straight affordable housing developments using trust fund monies.   Scott Baumberger: Nice. You have projects in Kentucky and Indiana?   Landen Burcham: That's right.   Scott Baumberger: Do they look very different in terms of different state funding, local and funding trusts.   Landen Burcham: They do. That's one of the challenges of trying to apply a broad approach to affordable housing. Every state has different rules or preferences. Every municipality has different rules and preferences. Kentucky has a very specific type of housing that once built they detail those in their rules called a qualified allocation plan.   That sets kind of the scoring and the rules for year or a two year period. Indiana has their own. Florida has their own. Every state really has their own. We're also looking in Florida, so I'm more familiar with their rules now as well. It's very different from state to state, even from city to city.   Scott Baumberger: Right, then I guess pulling back a little bit as you compare affordable housing development versus your market rate. Do you go in at the outset knowing, okay, this is going to be an affordable project we're pursuing from the get go, or is that something you decide later on?   Landen Burcham: It's usually from the get go. Whenever you're looking for a building or a piece of land or a property it's very intentional and you know that it's going to score a certain way for those resources. So it's usually very intentional when you're looking for a particular affordable, property.   Scott Baumberger: Then as a result do you tend to identify different sites? Okay, these sites lend themselves more to the affordable market even before you move forward, you do it with that in mind? Landen Burcham: That's right, and occasionally we'll find a site and we'll look at it through both lenses, both scenarios. For the most part, when you're looking for an affordable site it's for that particular purpose. Just fits those parameters outlined by the state.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely, then there are distinctions in how they're financed but not necessarily how they're built. Do the projects themselves turn out different sizes that quote, unquote, kind of a sweet spot for affordable versus market rate within the same community.   Landen Burcham: Yeah, there are. Just given the finite nature of resources, the tax credits, for a 9 percent project, you're kind of capped just based on the available subsidy. In Kentucky, for example, on a nine percent project you're really only getting enough subsidy to do a maximum of like 90 units or so. For Taxes and bond deal it's much greater. I think in kentucky we've probably had upwards of 300 unit new construction projects, financed with the four percent tax credit bond program. It's not as limited, but just given the nature of the availability of the funding they're not as large as market rate projects.   The end product, the housing itself and the buildings are very comparable to market rate, if not better than some market rate in the same market. Just given the requirements of the state housing finance agency, they have pretty strict design requirements.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely, that's very interesting. It's a changing landscape. Do you feel like the availability of funds for affordable housing is there? Is there still Significant pipeline to encourage that type of development moving forward?   Landen Burcham: Yeah there is, and there's a lot more advocacy for those resources than when I started a decade ago. It seems like more folks are familiar with these resources and the impact they can have in the community. So there's, organizations and individuals lobbying and advocating for these resources.   I think people realize the need. It's just still not enough resources. I can go on to another component of increasing housing supply and more affordability, by speaking to zoning and land use reform, which is another kind of hot topic. It's another area in which people, housing advocates are pushing policy.   Several states and municipalities are looking at their land development code to look at ways in which they can increase density. Jefferson County in Kentucky for example, I think 75, 80 percent of the land in the county is zoned for single family, which explicitly prohibits development of multifamily housing.   So it limits the available land for development. Certain cities have either totally eradicated their single family zoning requirement or they've increased the availability, or made the process to rezone or upzone easier. On the state level in Florida, they recently passed a bill called the Live Local Act, Senate Bill 102, and it's really interesting.   It allows for land that's being developed to seek the highest density of that municipality. So essentially does away with any zoning restrictions. So if you find a piece of land and you're going to build for multifamily, you can work with the local municipality and get it built without going through the zoning process. It just automatically has the highest density of that municipality, which is great.    Scott Baumberger: Affordable isn't necessarily multifamily. Are there affordable single family developments, that you guys are involved with as well?   Landen Burcham: I'm not as involved personally with those but in the past I have been. Especially post 2008, there were quite a bit of government programs, neighborhood revitalization programs available to kind of revitalize the single family market and homeownership.   There were quite a few subdivisions being built early 2010s that I worked on that had an affordability component, either subsidy to develop the infrastructure for the housing and income restrictions for sellers. We don't see as much of that these days. In fact, I don't think our state even has tax credit resources for single family development.   Just on the back end. If you're a homeowner, can homeowner down payment assistance.   Scott Baumberger: You're making a much bigger impact with the multifamily side. Something else that I thought was really interesting. We were talking about a little while ago was that your group has in house architects. I'd be curious to know how that shapes your development process and how you potentially learn lessons from one project to the next.   Landen Burcham: Certainly. I'm fairly new to this role so having an in house design team is certainly much different than the way I've operated for the past nine or ten years. Typically a developer has an architect or design team they like to work with that they don't always work with.   You have a project and you pick a design team, then work through the contract process. It's a very slow process. You know, architects are very busy. They don't always prioritize your project. And that's difficult when you have various deadlines, especially with public resources, you have very hard deadlines to meet with different phases of design document completion.   So having an in house architect it standardizes that process. You really don't have to worry about getting the ball rolling. We have prototypes that we can amend and adjust, modulate, that makes the process much easier. So we have a standard product. That, of course, is going to change based on side characteristics or, code requirements or different municipality preferences.   But they're easy to amend in the field as we move along, or during the pre development process. It makes that part of the development much easier.   Scott Baumberger: Interesting. Is it challenging to innovate within that space? How do you avoid the tendency to just do what we did last time?   Landen Burcham: I don't think just given the competitive nature of the markets we're in. There's really no such thing as being complacent. It seems like every new project we have to add something to enhance the product, amenities or just better materials. You learn lessons as you do these projects.   So I don't think there's room for complacency. I always have to be innovator or you won't be competitive in the market.   Scott Baumberger: The challenges come from outside and that forces you to be creative. Can you tell us what are some of the biggest challenges you're seeing right now? Current market.   Landen Burcham: Yeah, obviously availability of land that's entitled. If you find a good piece of land, a market or property you always have to get it rezoned and that's just time and time can kill deals. It seems like even if you're prepared and you have a local government that's supportive and residents and neighbors who are supportive there's always something that can pose a challenge. Then just the interest rates, financing, getting equity together, we're just finding it challenging to get deals closed, even if you do have a fully entitled deal.   Interest rates are still very high right now, and the supply chain still isn't totally normalized. Construction costs are still very high, materials are high.    Scott Baumberger: It's challenging for sure. Are there recent projects that you can share with us? Love to hear about what's working well. Give us a quick win!    Landen Burcham: The biggest win I've had recently was probably my last job. We did a historic adaptive reuse of an old warehouse that utilized 4 percent tax lot of local subsidy and historic tax credits and also vouchers for residents. It's a senior project and every resident received a voucher.   I think it really speaks if you can get project based vouchers. It really enhances the economics of a deal and allows you to rely on less subsidy. It's guaranteed income and it's a win for both the developer and the residents because they all get rental subsidy on other side.   I think that's a great model if municipalities have vouchers available. It's a really good model. And also just the historic tax credit is pretty lucrative right now. It's very difficult, very challenging on the design end. You always run into challenges with historic buildings.   You think you can predict all the issues with a particular structure, and really until you're in the building, you just don't know. So it's challenging, but it also is a really good tool.   Scott Baumberger: For sure. Is that something that your team is looking at moving forward? Adaptive reuse? I know, that's a hot topic for a lot of residential work right now.   Landen Burcham: We don't have too many in the pipeline right now, mostly new construction.   Scott Baumberger: Is it challenging for the affordable grants to sort of get their heads around adaptive reuse?    Landen Burcham:  Yeah, it's difficult. It's kind of managing some paradoxes because there's different design standards for each that the state housing agency has pretty rigid design standards. Then the National Park Service and the State Historic Preservation Office have their design standards. It's just a matter of trying to trade horses and, you make compromises on both ends. You do have to seek waivers really through both processes because are just not designed to work together.   Scott Baumberger: Awesome. Well Affordable housing is very near and dear, I really appreciate your insights into this really important aspect of development and definitely want to stay tuned.   Thank you, Landen.   Landen Burcham: Thank you for having me.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely. With that we'll wrap things up. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time  

Scott Baumberger: Hello, and welcome to the creative viz podcast. We discuss topics in architecture, development, and visual media. Today, I'm really excited to have Sam Mehra with Boos Development, he is a development project manager there. Welcome, Sam. It's great to see you.   Sam Mehra: Thank you, Scott, for having me. Love to have this platform to discuss things.   Scott Baumberger: That's great. Thank you. We were talking a minute ago. You have a really interesting background.  I understand you studied engineering, then work for a time in construction and are now on the development side. Can you walk us through that and how that happened?   Sam Mehra: I started my bachelor's in civil engineering in India. When you do the bachelor's, you basically get a small amount of knowledge about different fields in civil engineering. So you will get to understand traffic, you get to understand environmental everything so you get a little bit of exposure to everything. The most important thing that I liked from that experience was the construction management That is where I was like, okay. This is my niche. This is what I need to work on. And to work on that I came to the USA to do my master's at UF - University of Florida. That is the path that I took to make sure that I constantly work on something that I love. To me, construction management is something that I love to do.   I'm passionate about, whenever you go into a market, anything that you do, you want to understand the details before you start to work on the big things. That is my approach. You build your foundation strong so that  you can build a tall building on it. My approach was that let's build my foundation strong by making sure that I have exposed myself to subcontractor work. Understand what they work on, how they do work.   What are their emotions, feelings? What do they go through while they are on site? First three years of my career I spent on going through that. Making sure that what is the basic approach of subcontractors when they are approaching a project. Once I understood that, once I understood their process, once I understood how things work over here, I was like, okay, let me go venture in GC world now, because now I understood subcontractor world. I can hire subcontractors properly. Then I started working on the GC side. More general contractor work I did for three, four years. Then I understood, GC work . The processes are in, I understand what to do, how to hire subcontractors, how to make sure that the productivity of the project goes properly.   My approach is always to keep growing, learning, growing, learning and growing. That is proponents of what I go by once I learn and I understand things. I just don't want to stick in a place where I'm like, okay, now I cannot learn anymore. This is it. As soon as I get to that point, I'm like, okay, I need to learn more.   That is how I ventured into real estate development. I knew, let's say 40 percent of what happens in development. I learned 60 percent of what goes on, a lot more on permitting entitlements. How to deal with the county, cities, design work. Part and parcel of things were always involved in my projects before, but taking it hands on and putting effort in it, it is a different story.   That is basically my journey and journey will keep going on. I'll keep trying to venture, keep learning and keep trying to grow as much as I can.    Scott Baumberger: Absolutely, I don't care how old you are, how many years you've been doing it, there's always more to learn. It's such a unique industry we're in. There's always innovation and so much complexity, and every project is different.   There's a discovery with every single one. I'd like to explore, your background, particularly in construction. How does that affect when you approach a development project? How does that background shape your approach to it?   Sam Mehra:  That is a very interesting question, and very good question because see the thing is when you have seen how subcontractors work when you have been in their shoes and then you were in shoes of general contractor, you know exactly how they are thinking.    What is their approach to do the work? How they will get to the end result that is giving you the building? What are the factors that affect the productivity, the quality of work? When you look at entire picture, let's say development of a real estate property is a big picture.    Construction is a 40 percent 50 percent part of it because everything is dependent on construction. You get to understand the costs better. You get to understand the timelines better. Everything that is related to construction eventually affects your project plus the planning. The planning of a project becomes better because now I'm thinking okay I'm gonna put a budget together, but I'm realistically thinking what factors will affect this budget? While we are going through this timeline, then I'm thinking about , Someone would tell me that it would take eight months, but I have built this project myself before I know it takes six months so I understand I can counter check those things and then the price wise. Let's say a site cost comes in and they say that okay, for 2 acre development, it will take 2 million dollars. But being a GC, I know that it doesn't take 2 million dollars. It takes only 1.4 million. All those factors affect the project. And the planning of the project. The more you can affect the planning of the project. rather than Doing the planning while you are doing the project Gives you a better result.   Scott Baumberger:  Absolutely. It's so interesting. Can you point to recent project where that might've come into play?    Sam Mehra: I just did a project in Minnesota. We were building an Auntie Anne’s and a Jamba Juice, it is a two in one store. What helped me go through that project was that I have built a lot of QSRs. So I understood the cost of the project. I understood it only takes us 110 days to build it and timelines were good.   We were able to get through the approval of the project in the REC stage pretty quickly because I was able to put all those factors together. You're always learning this market. What I learned from that project was interesting. weather is such a big factor.   We started building I think in August. Our 110 days was going to expire, but we're going to complete let's say mid November was our target date. Now, obviously we had some issues with the constructability and things like that. But as we go by it, we found out the winter, the fall weather came early.   The snow started early. We were not able to do our asphalt. We were not able to do our landscaping because it was not suitable to do it that climate, although we got the TCO, we were able to open the project, but that is what I learned. Now, when I'm working in that climate. I would know that I cannot do these things and I will put timeline in my project that these 2 things would have to be done later or how to maneuver them. I would say on the budgeting side, we were very good. We were able to keep everything in grabs. The only other issue that I can remember and was a good learning experience was that, it was snowing when we were doing the due diligence so ground was hard. We were not able to do the landscape. This site had a hill on it, so on 1 side of the property, there was a hill that was 20 feet high. We were not able to have a geotech on site. We designed our entire retaining wall on the basis of the geotech that we did on the site, but we were not able to do the geotech on that.   As the entire timeline went by and we were ready to start the construction, we realized, Oh, that thing is not done. We need to go make sure that the geotech matches to what we have already encountered on the site. And interestingly, that didn't match. We had to revise the designs that delayed our process a little bit.   Like I said, I look at everything as a learning experience. Now I learned from it. I would make sure that it never happens   Scott Baumberger: Exactly. I imagine you have a buffers, contingencies for things that come up. And so that's going to be a different thing on every project, right?   Sam Mehra: We definitely try to put as much buffer, like 5 percent contingency to cover these things, but. It is more about the productivity of a project. When something like that happens now, you have to stop. You have things start to stall a little bit or GC is still trying to figure out.   Okay. I have this problem. How am I going to resolve it? Meanwhile, your subcontractors cannot come to site and work on the regular stuff. So I feel like it still affects the productivity of your project. That is why I prefer to do as much planning as you can in the starting and look at all the factors.   There are so many other factors. Yes, we will miss some of them, but if you have gone through these issues before try to look at all the factors possible so that You have a very well planned project when you go on site or when you even start the designing process.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely. It's so interesting. I understand working on a project in Florida. We're talking about Minnesota. doing projects all over the country. When you are putting those teams together what do you look for when you're assembling teams for new development?   Sam Mehra: I have the approach of accountability - say you are hiring someone to work for you. You're gonna dig deeper to make sure that this is a good fit. They communicate better. They're accountable for the work. They're going to perform and we work as a good productive team I look for it and everything. When I am looking for people who i'm going to work with i'm going to try to look at all these qualities before we do a contract. We are going to do a lot of conversations. We are going to talk about the project I'm gonna see how quickly you're gonna Send me the proposal. If you said you're going to send it by Friday, did you send it by Friday?   Are you delayed ? What is your understanding of the project? Also, I want to go into your history, how much of this you are being exposed to, or are you going to just do it 1st time? Because that is so important with development. Knowing the infrastructure, how to plan, how the permits will happen, what the county or city is looking for, because some people when they commit to these things and don't have that experience, then that learning curve. Causes issues during the project. , I prefer people to learn, but don't learn on my project. Yes, I want you to learn, but learn with an expert while they are doing the project. Not taking on my project as a learning project. Those are the things I really focus on. I want everyone to be accountable as much as I am accountable for the actions that I take.   I want you to take the accountability for the actions that you take, because in the end, this is a partnership. You and I are partners. Your progress your success and my progress and success are both interdependent So let's look at it in that way And if you do better i'll do better and we all will go forward in the right direction   Scott Baumberger: Great attitude. I love it. Not every project goes well. I know that there are a number of, challenges for a lot of us in the industry, at this moment. What are some of your biggest challenges that you're seeing right now?   Sam Mehra: The challenges on a project are generally when you didn't plan properly. Let's say I'm working on a project. That is a 10 acre project right now and, it is at the final stages of completing the site work but the issues that comes on is, we did not design the turn lane properly or the structure should not be here - it has to be moved now. Sometimes when things happen, which Should have been planned properly beforehand and we should have looked at those things in detail and have not thought about it what it does is it delays the project. Obviously this is delaying the timeline of our project and delaying the productivity of the site contractor.   Also the biggest issue nowadays I'm seeing is the accountability with people. What they are working on. For some reason, either they get too busy, they pick up too many projects and then their commitment to a project goes down. They do not put all the efforts in trying to close out the project get the work done in time. That is one of the things that we have faced a lot. When people are not taking accountability and that is why I talked about why accountability is so important because if you take accountability for your actions It helps us so much. I don't like to micromanage. I like to give you all the freedom to do your work but at least give me the results that we talked about. Okay, this will be delivered in two days. Please do it in two days not five days not ten days two days is what we talked about delivered in two days. These are some of the things that we are seeing a lot. I don't know if COVID had some kind of effect on it, how people were working during that time but that accountability, I feel , has to come back, has to be what we should focus on.   Scott Baumberger: That's interesting. What do you think might help in that regard? Is it like you mentioned subcontractors there, are they potentially inexperienced in the field or with time that might get better.   Sam Mehra: I think there are two factors to it. One is obviously the experience. The second is your attitude towards the work. When you are working on a project, I have an attitude of I want to deliver the best product for you. That is my attitude. It is not about money, it's not about, what I'm going to make from this project.   It is more about how I can deliver the best product for you. All my efforts would be towards to make sure that The product has the quality it is delivered in time and it is in budget when you focus on Producing good product giving people services the money comes to you as a byproduct. People are focusing too much on trying to gain more profits rather than Giving people good service, good service brings you more clients, brings you more profit. We should always focus on our product and quality that we give people and be proud of it.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely. Well said. I couldn't agree more. I think that's true throughout our entire industry, and beyond. Thanks for sharing that. Do you have any success stories? Anything that's working particularly well for you right now? Love to hear these.   Sam Mehra: The approach that I have taken with doing a lot of due diligence on who I am working with and understanding their characteristics and how they work on their projects. Even going to the detail with doing multiple meetings with them even before we Have signed the contracts.   I think that has helped Me a lot. That is what I would attest to is that The more you start to understand the people you are working with I think that has helped me a lot to make sure that we are understanding each other properly because a lot is dependent on communication. What is happening a lot is that I would say X the person on the other side didn't understand it as X. It is Y for her. Then there is a miscommunication that goes on all along that project. The communication part that I have realized is very important. No matter what happens, as long as you communicate with each other on what the deadlines are, what we are trying to achieve and are we on the same page.   Throughout the process that has helped me a lot. That is one of the most important things that I have learned throughout my life that is what I focus on doing on everything.   Scott Baumberger: Absolutely. Really well said there. I couldn't agree with you more on that front. That just really speaks to the heart of the podcast. Getting people to share their stories and learn from each other, hearing other experiences. Thank you so much, Sam. I really appreciate your time with us today.   It's been a pleasure. I've learned a ton. Thank you so much for coming on.   Sam Mehra: I want to thank you for putting this show together. This is a really important initiative. This is what I was looking forward to. What I have always focused on is that let's not make our own mistakes if we can learn from someone else's mistake, and that is so important. For some reason we forget that. Everyone is on their own journey, why don't we learn from each other's experience and work good as a group, rather than thinking that I'm the only horse in the race, there are so many horses in the race. really appreciate your effort over here.   Scott Baumberger: Oh, well thank you, Sam. A great reminder, let's keep those lines of communication open. Let's keep the conversation going. Really appreciate it today. With that, we're going to wrap things up. Thank you so much for listening in and we'll see you on the next one

Scott Baumberger: Hello and welcome to the creative viz podcast where we discuss topics on architecture development and visual design. Today, I'm thrilled to have Jason Hughes. He is a talent development manager with Cortland and he's based in Houston. Welcome Jason. Jason Hughes: Thank you. Scott Baumberger: Great to have you on. So right off the bat explain for us what talent development manager means. What does that look like for you? Jason Hughes: So a talent development manager within Cortland, what we do is all of our training. It's very up close personal. It's very science and data driven and you're going to learn that about Cortland. Everything we do is based on science and data, which is really, really cool. It's one of the reasons I love working for Cortland. A lot of our training is in person up front and personal on sites at our apartment communities. We can actually walk through the training in depth. We've won awards for our talent development through. Just recently. It's something that we're very proud of. Scott Baumberger: That's great. I'd love to hear more about Cortland's unique take on both development and property management. Jason Hughes: Cortland started out strictly a development company. I believe that was 0405 and they decided to bring management in house. That's when they realized that they wanted the best of the best. They wanted the best clubroom facilities. They wanted the nicest fitness centers, the coolest pool areas. They really decked out their model homes. That's when they were realizing they received a review from a resident. The review read, you can give me all the bells and whistles, but if you can't provide the basics, that's like having all the toppings without the bananas and the ice cream. So, they took that personally because if you look at all new construction, multifamily, everyone has all the bells and whistles. That's when they decided to really focus on the resident experience. That's what really sets us apart from others in this industry. Jason Hughes: We currently manage over 80, 000 apartment homes. We're very data driven. Our residents actually before their residents, they start getting surveys the moment they tour our community. 7 days after they move in, they get another survey. How was your move-in process because we know that's a huge impression. You receive a next survey 45 days after living with us. You receive a survey after every service request, after every work order. You get another Pulse survey 4 months before your lease expiration. If you decide to move, you get an exit survey. All in all, you're receiving and I haven't looked up the data, a good guesstimate would be your average resident receives 10 to 12 surveys a year times 80, 000. Scott Baumberger: That's a lot of data and your residents comply? What's the rate of return? Jason Hughes: It's a pretty heavy return. What we've done is we've taken all that data given by our residents and we put that into Our training, our talent development, we use all of that data. Everything that we get from our residents is how we train our associates on how to treat our residents. So top of the line resident experience. Scott Baumberger: Love to hear more about that. Walk me through, what are your residents peak concerns? What are you getting back in these surveys?  Jason Hughes: what we have found the number one, most important thing to our residents is communication. They want a lot of it. Over communication is preferred. Let's give an example. We have to shut the water off of a building in order to do a major plumbing repair. What we're going to do is typically give them a 48 hour notice listen on this day and time. We're not going to do it at 8 AM when people are getting ready for work, but let's say we'll say 10 30 AM on Tuesday, we're going to be shutting the water off. We anticipate it to be shut off for two hours. Please plan accordingly. Then a 24 hour notice, then a two hour notice. Then let's say we're an hour in and we realize, Hey guys, this is going to take longer. Let's start communicating with them some more. We have, ways of communicating all of them, bulk messages that's what they want so that's what we give. We've actually had to tailor some of our applications so that we can communicate more with bulk communication.  That's one thing that we've been working on for the past couple of years and we've done that. Of course it's evolving, getting better. That's the number one thing that our customers want. Number 2 is service. I tell my fellow associates, we work where they live. You have to grasp that we work where they live. This is their home. Of course they want Things taken care of fast, they want them done correctly. They don't want to have to call you back. That's where we focus with our service teams. Number 1, let's get the job done correctly. We don't believe in band aids. I've worked for companies in the past where I've seen the service manager come in and say okay, I need to order this part and the manager says, we can't. It's not in the budget. We don't believe in that. It is our jobs and our leaders, our community managers and our service managers to manage their budget around it. Okay, well, we have to have it. Let's see how we can make this happen. We don't believe in band aids. We want to fix it right the 1st time because that's what the customer wants. The 3rd thing that our customers want is parking. They want to be close to their homes. They want to be able to have guests over and not have issues with that. The 4th, thing that they want is safety. They want safety and we don't provide security at the majority of our communities, but that's not what they're talking about. They want adequate lighting. They want to make sure that access controls are working properly. They want to make sure that you don't have your main entry gate open for 4 days because you haven't repaired it, things like that. What I found really astonishing learning about our residents wants and needs is the fact that number 5 on their list is the actual apartment home. They want all these things before even talking about their actual home. We take all that information and data and we use it with our leadership. How we train them, our customer service, even with our service teams, because they're in their homes daily. They have more interaction with our customers than we do. We take it a step further and train our service teams on that customer service. Then we're training our office associates, the sales strategies to meet the resident experience, which is really cool. I don't know if you can tell, but love my job.  Scott Baumberger: That's awesome! I'm hearing this and kind of running it through a marketing lens. When we're doing multifamily, we spend so much time on the product and I think that's because it's easy. We can, point ooh, look at this we have marble countertops or the latest tech but you're saying that this is number five on the list. There are things, obviously parking when we talk about safety, there are things about the site, the design, the layout of the building that play into those. But what I'm hearing mostly is that it's really up to the management, the systems that you have in place. You mentioned communication is number one. That's not necessarily architecture, that's people. When you are marketing or, leasing, what does that messaging look like? Is that something you can speak to? Jason Hughes: You mean, as far as our sales strategy? Scott Baumberger: In terms of when you're trying to get new tenants do you focus on the service and on some of the unique systems that you have? Jason Hughes: Not really. We do have great marketing teams and they know the data. They know what's going on in each individual market. It's not really my forte, but, I do get to talk with them once a week and find out where the hotspots are and then they know which assets to focus on to move budgeted money around to focus on those assets. In general, like you said, it's kind of hard to market that. However, there are certain things that we do once we get them in the door. For example, we have a 45 day move in guarantee. The first 45 days of your lease, if you have a life change or you've decided, look, this was not the best fit for me. us a 30 day notice and we let you out of your lease. Not many people are doing that. I mean, once you sign that lease, you're locked in. So, we tell that and we use that as a marketing tool. I've told, Prospects point blank. I said, the reason we give you that guarantee and no one else does, is because we're very confident, read our reviews. We want you to read our competition and reviews. We've gotten such a good reputation that we also allow transfers to any of our Cortland communities. If you're in Idaho and you get a job transfer to Florida, we can help you. You don't have to get out of your lease. We'll take you. Cortland's Cortland. Scott Baumberger: Nice.  Jason Hughes: We have some really great stuff. Scott Baumberger: That's a size kind of matters when it comes to those things. Even within the city, say you're in Houston took a job on the other side of town. It's like, I'm tired of making this commute. Right.  Jason Hughes: We do it a lot.  Scott Baumberger: That's really interesting. You mentioned something up front about Cortland that they started out as a development company, but more focused on the management side. What does the proportion look like right now? guys still doing a lot of new development or is the emphasis more on managing the existing properties? Jason Hughes: I think we might have one development project going in another state, so I'm not 100 percent on right now our focus is acquiring and, doing value add through renovations. And again, changes within the market depending on conditions. Cortland decided to start getting into acquisitions. They brought design and Cortland build, which is our construction division. They brought all that in house. So we are fully in house. We have Cortland build Cortland design. Then we have our investments teams and then we have our operations teams. So that's 100 percent in house. Right off the bat, our investment teams are underwriting deals daily, looking for deals and when they find something that, once they plug all the numbers and it works and investments approves it we make the deal. If we're able to close on it a Cortland build and Cortland design come in immediately. Start changing things and putting the Cortland touch on it is what we like to call it. Typically, when they're underwriting it, that's where they're automatically going to find what type of premium we're going to get because of our renovations. I was talking to investments 1 time, and they were looking at a deal and they had added a 300 dollar, rent up charge. Through that renovation. Like I said sometimes it changes again with the market. I came on with Cortland at the end of 2017 and I had been working for a development company. It's all he did was develop new product and then they sold it and Cortland acquired us. It was a big package. Now we were already Class a communities, so there was very barely any renovations at all. maybe design came in and redid the club rooms in the offices, but they didn't have to do any And so, at that time, 2017, 2018, that was the perfect opportunity for them to acquire hold fairly invest any money in renovations and now it looks like they're going back to acquiring, renovating, it's always exciting. Scott Baumberger: Yeah. I can tell. You mentioned the geographic reach, Idaho, Florida , all over. I think you even mentioned, have a number of properties , in the UK as well. Jason Hughes: That's correct. And now in the UK, it is 100 percent development. We're developing all of that. We have a great team out there. Cortland is truly changing multifamily in the UK like it's never been done before. the UK, what happens is a developer builds an apartment community and then they start selling off individual units. Jason Hughes: You may be a package deal to one landlord. Here's 10 units. You manage those. Some will buy one or two. That's the way it's been forever in the UK. We decided to change things up. I saw this beautiful picture of one of our communities. I believe it is 50 stories tall. I believe it's over 500 units. It's beautiful. It's going to be managed like multifamily is here and is blowing them away. It is very well received because again, we're putting that Cortland touch, adding those beautiful amenities. The customer service the UK you have a landlord that owns 1 unit in a building. What kind of service do you think you're going to be getting from him? kind of service that we can provide. So we really are changing and I get to see them once a year. We all meet up and it's really cool listening to what's going on there. It's amazing. Scott Baumberger: And I imagine even within us, it's such a big group. you able to hear what other people are seeing on the ground? Do you get, the wider network of lessons learned from such a big group? Jason Hughes: Yeah, we do. Number one, we have great communication. Our internet, Everyone's posting live updates and things like that. Our leadership team out of Atlanta's is very good at sharing information. Typically, what we do is once a year, get together with all leadership. That's when we bring all community managers, all service managers, all executives, we all get together and there's some learning involves that some training involved, but we also get all the updates. How Cortlandt's handling investments and how the UK is doing and typically this is towards the end of the year and we all look forward to it's really fun getting to meet managers from Colorado and things like that. We get everyone together. It's a, really good time. Scott Baumberger: That sounds great. It sounds like a great company to work for. Jason Hughes: It is. If you can't tell, I drank the Kool Aid while back. Scott Baumberger: this has been really great. one thing like to do, with my guests is try to end on a hopeful point. I know things can be really challenging. Not just new development, but, even renovations, just trying to stay ahead of this crazy market that we're in. Can you share anything with us, to, perk us up? Tell us what's working, what do you see for the rest of 2024. Jason Hughes: What we've been doing for 2024 is a little bit different than what we have been doing in the past, just because of the market conditions. So the way Cortland works is they put funds together. Their first fund, I believe they ever started was around 30, 40 million. I believe we are on fund six or fund seven. I'm pretty sure it's six and of course our strategy is getting investors to come in with us. Right now we're sitting on a fund with 1. 5 Billion dollars. They have decided to hold on a minute just because of these market conditions and interest rates. Our strategy this year has been to Dispo some communities based on that investor portfolio. Then we're taking those funds to acquire our new acquisitions. Like I said, I talk to investments all the time because they're literally two cubes over. So I'm always excited to learn what's going on. Hey, do we have anything in the works? Luckily we do here in our region. We're very excited about that. I think that's just unfortunately these market conditions, that's what a lot of people are doing. Our investors know us and trust us so much that they're willing for it to sit there because their returns have been so good so far. Scott Baumberger: If you have a longer horizon, it's still a great investment. Absolutely. Fundamentals are still very good. Well, with that, covered a lot of ground today. Thank you so much, Jason. Cortland sounds like really interesting company, definitely one to watch. I appreciate your insights, sharing with us today. Scott Baumberger: We'll see you next time. Thanks so much. Jason Hughes: Scott, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Scott Baumberger: Oh, you bet. Thank you, Jason.  

Hello and welcome to the CreativeViz Podcast, where we talk about topics in architecture, development, and visual design. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Sam Hud. He wears two hats over at Atlas Management. He's a development manager and also an asset manager for their properties. Welcome, Sam. Great to have you on. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Happy to be here and discussing all this crazy changing industry with you. Well, first off, tell me, how is 2024 going so far? What are you seeing? You know, it's a mixed bag. There's some good, some bad, but that definitely comes with the territory. Whenever there are challenges, there are also opportunities to pivot and make the most of it. We're experiencing a lot of the same challenges that everybody else in the industry is too, but trying to remain optimistic about what those challenges will end up being ultimately and how we can pivot and adjust accordingly. Absolutely. I know interest rates are top of mind for a lot of us. Can you tell us a little bit about how the changes in interest rates are affecting you guys? Not just high, but they're also unpredictable. Well, fortunately, they have gained a little bit more predictability as far as where things are headed. A lot of people are expecting the Fed to make rate cuts here soon. Sounds like there's some potential that that'll be held off on, which really no one in the industry is very excited about. At least from here, it seems that there'll be stable and/or going down, hopefully in the near future. It seems like a lot of the rate increases have stopped for the time being, which it's nice to feel like we've hit a ceiling there, knock on wood. It's definitely posed some challenges over the last 12 months or so since they started going up, especially in the development world where you're more prone to construction loans that have floating interest rates. With those going up, it definitely makes it hard to maintain that high level of interest, especially when they're long-term construction projects. Exactly. So the rates then they can be variable over the life of the loan. Is that right? Yeah, especially on the construction side of things. Part of the goal with it is to get construction done and a property leased up and stabilized as soon as possible so that you can get to a more permanent loan where it's at a five or 6 percent interest rate. And you're just steady Eddie with making the interest payments. But until you get there, that's definitely when things are more volatile and everybody's a little more stressed. The changing interest rates are making a bigger difference for everybody involved. Sure. Have the rise in rates, as you mentioned, over the 12 months, has that affected the feasibility of any new projects? Is that put things on hold or canceled projects potentially? It has definitely caused some delays in the current projects, just with trying to get financing in order. With the high interest rates, you're definitely burning through your interest reserves with loans a lot faster. So having to backfill that capital to pay that definitely has caused some delays in construction. We are pretty focused on the projects that we already have and are undergoing. So haven't as much seen it impact new work just because with the current market, we've sort of hunkered down and want to focus on our big ones that we're already undergoing. I will say we've definitely seen it impact the capital markets, refinance side of things. It's really limited loan dollars you can get on any sort of new loan or refinance you're working on. So that's definitely been a bit of a wake-up call. It's not so easy to get money now that the interest rates are 6 percent when two years ago they were in the twos, which is crazy. There's a lot of money out there, but it's a lot harder to get it just because of the new underwriting standards. That's interesting. I understand Atlas Management projects are residential and for the most part are rentals. That's a strategic decision on your part. Can you tell us a little bit of the thinking behind that? Yeah, on the development side of things, the goal is always to be long-term holders of the property. Our developer feels that you really get the most benefit out of it when you're putting all the time and money in on the front end to develop it, if you can hold the project after and the cash flow, get the long-term appreciation of it. We have a unique system in that we both work for a third-party developer who has a relationship with Atlas and long term, we're going to be the property manager of those properties we're helping develop. So kind of keeping everything in the same flywheel as far as we're providing insights on the development side of, "Hey, this is really going to help you long term." Both from our perspective, if we're actually going to be managing the property, we know this will make things way more efficient, but also it'll help you save on operational costs or increased revenue potential, all that good stuff. Keeping everything in-house and keeping properties long term is the ultimate goal, just because we really think it helps you maximize efficiency as far as individual properties go. That's interesting. Do you think the buildings are built differently if your intent is to hold onto them long term versus to hand them off very quickly? Would you build them potentially to a different, not necessarily the standard, but also different configurations? I think there is. You run into a point where if you're a merchant builder, you're somewhat incentivized to do so a little more cost-effective and maybe not use as high of quality as products. Not to say you're cheaping out or building something of poor value or quality. But if you're not really stuck with the full cost of construction all the way through, if you're using lesser materials that are going to break down quicker, but you're going to sell the building after you're completed, you're not stuck with having to repair those costs or the maintenance or you're just less concerned with that because you're going to be out of the deal by the time those maintenance issues start to come up. It is definitely something that we take into account. Our goal is to manage that property for the next 10 years. So we need to use high-quality appliances that aren't going to break down. We want to use high-quality finishes that the resident both appreciates, but we know isn't going to fall into our lap as, "Hey, all of this needs to be fixed right after construction is completed." The incentives need to be aligned with what you're doing there. If you're a merchant builder, you don't want to build to a lower quality if you're just trying to get in there and build and get out. You do want to be extremely cost-effective and deploy your money quickly elsewhere. So you want it to be able to sell at a profitable price. There's definitely some things that change based on the strategy with regards to hold time for properties. That's interesting. The incentives are different. Certainly. Something that's come up in conversations with other developers, particularly in the Seattle area, is it's very difficult to develop for sale properties because of the litigation exposure for new developments. Has that influenced decision making at all for your projects, particularly up in Washington? No, and part of that is a lot of our development is in Oregon. What we do at Atlas in Washington, both Seattle and in Southwest Washington, Vancouver, is mostly third-party management. So we haven't really seen that much up there. And that's really not a development in Washington is not yet really a part of our business model to date. Okay. So then just to be clear, in Washington, you're mostly acquiring existing properties for management. Either on the property management side of things, yes, doing third-party management. We're not necessarily the owners of it, but we're taking it over both in property and asset management. A lot of our Washington business has been third-party property and asset management. It sounds like the kind of geographic area you are looking at is Oregon, Willamette Valley, I suppose as far down as Salem but then you mentioned you do have quite a bit in Washington. So you're primarily developing in Oregon but managing in both states. Is that right? That's correct. We have a pretty broad mix of what we work on property type-wise. We manage a single-family portfolio on the property management side of things. We manage duplexes, but we also manage and have managed six-story mid-rises, luxury assets in downtown. We get to see a pretty broad spectrum of both development types and asset classes, both in construction and property management. It's been a great learning opportunity for both me personally and I think Atlas as a company. We're a young growing company. We've been around for eight or nine years. It's allowed us and our owners and everybody involved to see a lot of different things and grow pretty quickly from doing all that. That's great. You touched on single-family rentals. Is that something that you are doing? I know that's an emerging market. We have a portion of our portfolio. I think we're about 2,500 to 2,600 units managed at Atlas. I want to say 250 to 300 of those are single-family units. It's about 10 percent of what we're doing and is a big part of the growth for us too. That was my next question. Is that something you're looking to expand on? Yeah, we're targeting 3,000 units under management by the end of the year. A lot of that scalability does come from larger multifamily projects, but we do have single-family in mind and do you think it's a lucrative place to be? It's part of the growth strategy as well. What's the size of a typical project? Sounds like you've got a pretty big range. So maybe there isn't such a thing as a typical. What types of unit numbers are you looking at? As far as the development side of things go, it's about 100 to 200 units for the new construction that can be phased out primarily I have worked on the development side of four main projects; they have been a little over 200 units, just under 200 units. We have one that's just over a hundred. Then there's a larger project down in the Woodburn area that once it's fully completed will be 586 units. So much bigger. It's being phased out in a way that the first phase is 179 units and then spread out after the fact. So it has fallen to where the projects are anywhere from 100 to 200 units and that's intentional. We feel that that's about the area where you can get quite a bit of economies of scale operating-wise down the line and start to limit your construction costs per door because it's spread out over a larger project. Okay. That's interesting. So, because you're looking for long-term ownership here, that you don't want to build so many so quickly that you then have a huge backlog that you're having to manage all of a sudden. Absolutely. Some of our projects are in more tertiary markets; we're not right in downtown Portland. So we are relying on some growth in those markets. If you build 800 units all at once, you're really banking on, "Hey, these are going to hit the market really well." So by phasing it out, it does allow you to be a little more strategic and cautious as far as making sure the units get absorbed into the area and that they're being well received by the community and potential residents. Yeah, that's great. This is a huge issue for a lot of architects, developers. Do you run into a lot of community opposition? Does that affect site selection sometimes? A lot of that type of work, especially at Atlas, was done before I joined. I've been with the company about four years. So I really jumped on after a lot of that had been already discussed and finalized. I do now, especially with the city of Woodburn. There are a lot of off-site improvements that we've had to do as part of conditions of approval for the projects which is a bit of a hurdle on the development side of things. That's a lot of costs you have to take into account in your construction budget. That's not directly related to the property itself, but ultimately, if we're going to manage these long term and own them long term, the community needs to be successful and beneficial long term. I do think these off-site improvements help to achieve that. They are extra costs that can be a burden, but overall, they are benefits to the community, which should in turn benefit the property as well. The long-term aspect of it. Absolutely. That's great. Related to that, I'm curious what your strategies are for property marketing. What's working right now? Give me a success story if you have one. Certainly. One of the ones is one you're actually familiar with. Apex did a rendering for our Pacific Valley project. Before the property even opened, we were just starting to lease, you completed a rendering for it, which did such a good job, it's still on our website as far as the overall aerial photo. For development projects, getting those types of renderings and being able to show potential residents what the property is going to look like, we think has been very beneficial, especially with all the competition out there. There's new apartments going up everywhere and people have lots of places to live. So any edge you can get and drawing their interest early on in construction, we think is really beneficial to aid that lease up process, which is always paramount to the success of the property, because that whole time you have tons and tons of vacancy loss. So whatever you can do to mitigate that and get people in early is extremely helpful. That's one success story. Partially thanks to your team for sure. It's one of the things I've learned being in so many different markets is effective marketing varies depending on the location, the asset class, all of that. Some more urban, higher value properties, you're going to be more online, you're going to be marketing using your typical ILS searches or big marketing agencies. But in smaller communities, like Woodburn or more far out from Portland, you do get a lot more walk-ins. So effectively marketing with physical marketing, like monument signs or A boards or we call them bandit signs. Just really knowing your audience and knowing how to market most effectively and grab their attention is something we've learned just based on the various different areas in the Portland Metro and Washington markets that we're in. That's great to hear. Sometimes you hand off the renderings, and you don't really hear the impact that they have. So thank you for that. Really appreciate it. Feel that having that rendering is definitely an asset to us. You are a pleasure to work with and doing it, which is obviously why we're still continuing the dialogue going forward. Thanks again for that. As you're saying this, I've definitely had conversations with other developers, brokers housing is such a hot commodity. There's such a dire need for housing, affordable housing, particularly in our region. It's basically you build it, they'll come. I guess what I'm hearing from you is that it is a competitive market and marketing campaigns are still important regardless. Certainly, with it being such a cyclical industry, that may change sometimes when construction wasn't as common or widespread as far as lots of people building, it's a little different, you can build a property and there's only so limited areas to live that people are going to find you. In certain markets, as a lot of people know with what happened during the pandemic, people started to leave the city centers and go to more suburban markets and a lot of the construction and interest in building in those areas grew, and so those are newer markets where a lot of construction has happened, and there's a lot of competition for new renters, and I think that's where the marketing comes into play, and you have to be really efficient about who you're reaching out to, what kind of concessions you're offering to get renters in the door, and stuff like that. It's not as easy as, unfortunately, as you build it, and people will just fill it. But depending on where you're at, can be easier than other locations. If you've done your homework, you're already in the right spot. What's that saying? If you fail to plan, you're planning to fail. We want to avoid that as much as we can. This is great. As we're wrapping up I'd love to hear about anything that you're seeing out there that's making you hopeful, particularly, over the next 12, 24 months or so. A lot of frustrations challenges, shall we say, in our industry what can you point us towards, Sam? Make us feel better. There's a couple of things, one of which I'll just start with, Portland and Oregon as a whole. There's been a lot of national media about Portland's demise and dumpster fire, all this terrible news about downtown Portland and the surrounding area. But being someone who didn't grow up here, I think a lot of the fundamentals of Portland and Oregon as a whole are still here. It's still a place with a great quality of life. There's basically everything you could want to do from going to the coast, to the mountain, to, go hike and ski it's all there for you. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Despite a lot of what's been happening downtown it's still going to be a great place to live for a lot of people and overall optimistic about Oregon and Portland, despite what's been put out there in the news there's a lot of headlines that make it seem a lot worse than I think it is. And that's coming from someone who lives downtown. It's still a fun place to live. Oh, that's great. I could certainly vouch for that myself. All of those things are still here, as much doom and gloom as is out there. Just go to the coast on a sunny day and you'll see that it's still a lovely beautiful as ever. Absolutely. The other thing too is just, I know it's a bit of a scary new topic, but for a lot of people, you know, AI is really impacting things. For us at Atlas, that's happening in an exciting way. We really think it's going to make not only our lives easier as a property manager, but also long-term residents as well, being able to provide more timely service to them and really allow our property managers to be more efficient in the ways they're treating residents. Allow them to have more time to focus on resident engagement and just enjoyment with the community instead of working on leases or lease renewals or stuff like that it's obviously fundamental to property management, but it's not necessarily adding to the day-to-day enjoyment of our residents and our communities. It's great to hear you put AI in the hopeful category. Have a lot of people put it in the doom and gloom. "Oh, it's gonna take my job." That kind of a conversation. There are tremendous positives. I agree that it can eliminate a lot of the drudgery. Some of the automated things that we do those tasks. Free us up for more creative strategic thinking. That's certainly my position as well. I was fortunate enough to graduate from business school in the midst of a lot of this. That was one of the big things they preached was, if you're scared of it, of course you're going to be scared of it, but if you focus on how you can kind of pivot and use it in conjunction with your job, instead of being afraid of how it's going to take your job, that's really where you're going to excel. There's definitely some things that are scary about it, and I don't know what's going to happen with all of it, but, try and focus on the positives of it and how we can use it to benefit our business and industry instead of harping on the negatives, which everyone seems to be pretty aware. Yeah Anxiety is a damaging thing to live with all the time. That's for sure. Absolutely. Thank you, Sam. Really enjoyed our conversation and thank you again for being such a wonderful client with Apex. A really good partner there. And we really enjoyed the relationship. Want to keep it going. Of course. This was a pleasure to talk to you and pleasure to work with you. Hopeful to see what we have in the future, more projects and hopefully more renderings. Well, we're here for you anytime. Thank you all for listening and we will see you next time.

Hello and welcome to the creative viz podcast where we talk about topics in architecture, real estate and visual design. Today. I've got the pleasure of speaking with Lauren Zinkan she is the director of marketing and communications with Martin Selig real estate in Seattle, Washington. Welcome Lauren. Great to see you. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I understand you are primarily operating in the office market and that is especially challenging these days. I'd love to hear your perspective. What are you seeing? And if you can tell us a little about any hopeful signs you might be seeing in the commercial office market these days. Definitely. It's no secret that the commercial market is moving a little bit slower than it used to. The general trends that we're seeing is an uptick in activity. But instead of having, the super large requirements where, tenants are looking for 80, 000 square feet. Instead, they're looking for, 20 or 30. We're also seeing, more flexibility in the spaces that they want. Instead of having a lot of, individual offices built out, except for, more traditional industries, like the legal industry we're seeing a lot of hot desks. We're seeing a lot of open floor plans amongst all of the buildings we're seeing this; amenities arms race where especially older buildings are trying to compete with the new class a building a bunch of amenities and are, trying to create this pull to get businesses in and offer, more competitive rates and offer, similar to the same amenities at, a lower cost because of, it being an older building.  Are you finding that tenants are, reducing their footprint. is that something that you're seeing on the ground? I would say, yeah, especially the super large tenants that, we're occupying, entire buildings or multiple floors. We're seeing across the board, just a reduction of space. We're seeing Amazon giving up buildings and changing where their offices are located. Another thing that we're seeing within the urban environment is that those spaces are being hit a little bit harder. Because when covid hit and everyone spread out to more of the suburbs we saw a lot of satellite campuses open to be closer to the employees. And I think that with the return to office mandates that are happening and, with people having to, start commuting again, we're seeing companies try to meet employees in the middle and say, our leases are up, or we're going to reduce our footprint, but we're going to come closer to you, or we'll offer more options where you can go. Interesting. So even if you're in the office, you might be working remote with other teams. Yeah. And I think that taking that approach of companies that have multiple locations, across the U. S. or across the world, they're saying, instead of having one office in Seattle, we'll have, one in Seattle and one in Bellevue and one in Tacoma and just dispersing a little bit more, but keeping the overall footprint. So, the overall footprint may not have changed all that drastically, but it is going into different places. Then just extrapolating from that. Do you think that some of the submarkets are overperforming? Are they actually benefiting from this trend?  There's definitely been some submarkets that have grown from this. I'm based in the Seattle area. So, I am most versed with that. But I know that Bellevue has been a hot topic and especially with COVID and, moving over to the East side a little bit more. We've seen a lot of companies at least consider that as an option. We're also seeing, a lot of growth in Tacoma.  Seattle is coming back pretty substantially. From Amazon requiring employees to come back in office. Also, just from the day-to-day foot traffic that I see downtown. We're definitely seeing a trend of people coming back to the city. The Tacomas, maybe Kirkland's of the world might be benefiting in the short term while the, center city markets are still recovering, Definitely. The 1 thing that noticed is that the city is still remaining as, the hub of where everything is. That's where all the headquarters are but we're seeing growth in, satellite offices more dispersed throughout the region. As a result of all this would you say that tenants looking for short term leases more than they might have a few years ago just to maintain flexibility. I would say that there's honestly, two camps that are happening right now. There are companies that have, decided what their real estate strategy is. They know what they want to do and they're confident signing, 10 to 15, maybe even 20-year leases. Then kind of in the other camp, we have companies that typically tend to be, smaller or more midsize companies Are waiting to see what everyone else does. And from my observation, what I've seen those companies do is they're more inclined to kind of extend their terms and they'll, extend their lease for, a year to five years because they want to see how the market shakes before they make any large decisions. Let's get back onto marketing. Love to hear just kind of your approach. Now I understand you're primarily office. Do you put together marketing packages for other building types, residential, mixed use anything else? Currently I do office and one mixed use building. In a previous role, I oversaw multifamily assets. So, I have a little bit of experience with both. I would say that they are, completely separate entities in terms of how they're run and, what you're looking for. I would say, speaking from the office side of things I think it, poses, the biggest opportunity for a marketer right now. But also, it's the biggest hurdle because there is so much on the market. It's really a question of, how do you stand out? How do you, call attention to yourself and also looking at the financials of how much are you willing to spend on a campaign to get back what you need? From, digital side of things, the major trend we're seeing is that a lot of companies are putting a lot of marketing dollars into their campaigns and they're buying, the highest tiered listings on, the MLS platforms. And if you can afford to that's great. On the flip side, if you're, trying to be. More efficient with you spend, how else do you approach that? I think that has kind of been where I've landed, to me, I can't justify spending that amount because, the conversion rates just aren't there. And so, what I pivoted to is taking a more retention-based strategy because if you think about it, the cost of, going and getting, a new lease and a new tenant, not only are you paying, for the marketing and the space planning and all of those things, but then you have, the cost of the build out. And it's a long time to really get that tenant in and start paying rent versus if we, turn inwards and say, how do we keep the people that are in our buildings, even if they want to, downsize, how do we keep them with us or within this space? It could be more cost effective just to work on the retention. Both in multifamily and in, commercial real estate in my opinion, I think tenant retention is, one of the highest indicators of, a good business strategy, but also from a financial performance standpoint, that's where priorities should lie. As a marketing professional, do you put together campaigns for existing tenants? As their Lisa starts a sunset, like, hey, you might be thinking about X, Y, Z. Here's why you should stay. So, when I joined, this wasn't a strategy that we had been using previously. So, I looked at, what does a tenant experience, what are all of our touch points when, they come in with us. And, from the move in to when their lease is up, however many years later that is, how many times do we get to interface with them? What materials are they getting? And what is that experience? It really came down to, there's a move in, there's a thanks for being here. We're excited to have you. And then, down the line it's, hey, do you still want to stay? In my mind, that has been successful and that's worked since you're working with companies versus, individual residents. You don't need as many touch points. But there's really a big opportunity there. I have brought in I call them; tenant retention events and we've used them to circle around our company values and try to, align both of our tenants and provide them something fun to do and build community, but also kind of show who we are as an organization. It's been really fun. We've been able to get, our sales team out there and interface with everyone. We've done anything from, holiday events to philanthropy and community service. We've done, local discounts for either vendors that we have within our portfolio or, neighborhood partners. Fun games. We've done, Surveys with raffles, anything that we can do to, interact, gain feedback, understand what we're doing well, what we can improve on and then really taking that information and saying, okay, well now how do we act on this? We know that there's an issue here. We know that we're doing really well here. How can we make that better? how can we fix something that we've identified is, a common weakness? Can see that feedback could be a real problem. On the commercial side, if you may not talk to them for years. And so, you may not really Have that many opportunities to hear from them directly. What are your concerns here? Like you said, what's working, what's not. Whereas, an apartment building, you might get that every year. You'd be released and stuff. You're going to hear it. Something's not working. You're going to hear about it right away. If you think about it, in an apartment building, you're your own representative, right? If you have, a leak or something's broken, then you're going to say something about it. In the commercial market, you have one contact. And sometimes, it's an office manager. Sometimes if it's a smaller business, it's the owner. What I have learned is creating the survey and sending it out to whoever is the representative that, gets the information from, the ownership group, but bringing those in person events and bringing, all of the employees out. It's amazing what you learn and what you find. Once you start talking to them. That's great. As a marketer, I'd love to hear some of your strategies for personalizing campaign. It sounds like, you're working small all the way up to the biggest what's your mindset when you go into a sales launch or leasing campaign? How do you do your research and tailor it, to the situation?  The general rule of all marketing is know your audience, know what they want to see, know what they're looking for know how they want to be communicated to and if there's a specific client in mind, there's a lot of research involved and it's, how do they present themselves? How do they communicate? What have they established their values are, where are they funneling their energy? And then we can take a look at that and create a tailored approach to it. Some fun projects that I have been a part of have been for. A social media client, we created the pitch deck to look like their social platform. They were interacting with it like they did their software. That was a really fun project. It was also really hard for me to get in the mind of, how do I design this? I'm sure they're going to find a million things that I messed up in here, but I hope it looks, 90 percent there that's a fun one. It's also about knowing, the people that you're working with. Sometimes it might not always be a pitch deck and sometimes it might be more of that relationship approach what does this person value and what are they interested in? As someone who's kind of all in on digital marketing, do you go into campaigns with notions of we're going to do X amount of social media, we're going to do website, other digital assets versus, we're going to Do events. We're going to invest in, face to face marketing, maybe print or physical investments that you might make. Do you go into campaigns with that in mind or does that come later after, of the research has happened? Would say that is More of how it starts and then the research fills in my approach of how I do it. When I'm initially setting, a campaign or deciding what we should be doing, it's, what are the business objectives and, what are the marketing objectives that I need to reach in order to support those. If we're trying to gain more exposure, maybe I'm going to put more emphasis on, our social platforms, or if we're trying to, generate more leads for our sales team, then I'm going to focus more on. The digital channels and more of, the MLS platform and broker relationships and things of that nature. I create a giant document basically that says, what does the company want to achieve? What do I need to achieve in order to help us get there and then break it down. It is a very large document, but basically at the end, it's a page called outputs. And it says what do I need to produce very boiled down anything from, we need 10 social posts a month on each channel. We need, one blog written about, one of our values or how we're interacting in the community. We need one positive PR piece, in a regional market. And then, maybe per year we want, one mentioned in a national outlet. And, go down there and say, these are all of the things that we need to achieve. Then just start chipping away at how and then the research comes into place. It can sometimes be really intangible. Obviously, there's getting the other party to sign on the line, but in other ways, how do you measure success? do you know if you've achieved success? Up to that point I'm primarily a data driven person.  Marketing without any data is just gambling. I always like to see that, the figures are aligning with, the strategy and checking in to make sure that we are growing, at an appropriate amount for the amount of effort and spend that's being put into something. Aside from that, big thing to me is, what is that impact? And what are you hearing and kind of listening to the chatter on the market?  What does the community, think of us and, what can we do to, build this relationship even more or, stand out from other groups? It's having an ear to the ground, having, connections and saying, behind closed doors, what are people saying regardless of if it's good or bad, it's always important to know because then you can change whatever you're doing or enhance it. That's great. As we wrap things up, any other thoughts you had on that. like to end on something hopeful. Any predictions, for 2024 any hotspots things that are going well these days. I would say overall predictions, in the headlines, the main tagline has been, quote, unquote, survive till 2025. I think that's when the market is predicted to stabilize and things will, return to their new normal. Normal.  The new normal is definitely the phrase that we should be using, but that's my own personal opinion. Overall, the market is definitely picking up not quite exponentially, but almost there in places that you'd have, only a couple tours. Now there's a ton.  Companies are finally starting to get the confidence. To return back to the market.  Return to work policies have stabilized for the most part where companies have either decided, you're hybrid, you're in all the time, or, you can be fully remote. And because of that, we're starting to see more curiosity going on. We're seeing a lot of, requests for flexibility in terms of, how much space can we take? What if we don't need that? Having, more open conversations of, what does this look like? There's a lot of people that are unsure because there's still, this push and pull between the employers and the employees because there's very different, wants and needs there. It's a very intricate dance of how do we, Get our employees in and make them happy. How do we, achieve what we want to and how do we, not create tension over it. The biggest thing right now is just, having an open line of communication. Being able to, have a big picture idea and be open to ideas or things that. Aren't traditional because with most of the office spaces that we're seeing, be built and open up today, they don't look anything like they used to, they're coffee bars lounges and living rooms. They're not, cubicles or offices. We were talking about the third space just a minute ago and, how employers, are feeling like that's a big draw for, their staff is to give them that space to socialize in ways that they may not have through the pandemic. Definitely. Remote workers are wanting somewhere to go, but they don't want to go to an office yet, that's definitely, a way to meet in the middle and say, okay, well, it's not, quote unquote, an office, but how about you, hang out where everyone happens to be employed by the same person and you get a free cup of coffee. I believe that that's going to be the winning strategy going forward in this market. So many insights today. Thank you so much, Lauren. Really appreciate you joining us today. Anything else you'd like to add? Any causes close to your heart that you'd like to share with us? I would say that for any woman that's interested in commercial real estate, there is a great organization called crew. They do a lot of great work, across the U S and it's been a great resource for me. I would encourage anyone who's interested to check it out. That's great. Thank you so much, Lauren. Really appreciate your joining us today and for our listeners, be sure to follow us to stay on top of all of the latest developments in architecture development and visual design. Till next time, I'll see you later.

Hello and welcome to the Creative Viz Podcast, where we talk about topics in architecture, development, and visual design. Today, I'm pleased to have Alex Kolodziejczyk. He is a Vice President of Development with CIM Group in Los Angeles. Welcome, Alex. Great to see you. Morning, Scott. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Love to talk about housing development, particularly multifamily housing in your neck of the woods, Southern California. One of the topics that comes up so much these days is affordability. I'd love to hear kind of your take on where the market is right now and what can be done to try to tackle the affordability problem that's so acute right now. I've been developing commercial real estate here in Los Angeles with CIM for the past seven or eight years. And things are definitely getting a lot more challenging. The way the interest rates are, the way the cost escalations coming out of COVID are still very prevalent. Adjustments and staffing, both on the private side and the municipal side certainly makes things difficult and, in some ways easier but it's definitely getting overall harder and a lot of different ways and from an affordability side we were all hoping that the rental growth of the past few years would keep on, marching along but as we kind of seen in the past 12 months rental rates have kind of topped out in most major markets and coastal markets, especially LA. It can't really get much higher for a standard market rate product and with the interest rates purchasing sale for condos is not exactly a viable option at the moment. And so, we're kind of in a standstill at the moment. You mentioned some things might be getting easier. Is that something you can talk about? Well, I can say from a municipal perspective, the city of Los Angeles has really tried to overhaul their plan check process. And they've gone electronic on many things which for basic level applications and reviews makes things a lot easier. Just having to go through an online portal and upload plans and not having to wait in line and sit at a counter and kind of pull a ticket and try to get a plant checkers attention certainly helps in that regard. But there's some challenges associated with that electronic system. Sure, I can imagine. Pros and cons, always, right? Yeah. I'm thinking something else that might be changing for the better. The city of LA in particular is looking at increasing upzoning sites near transit. Is that something that you're seeing and could potentially be helpful? Yeah. I mean, the state's density bonus program has always been alive and well. But now with TOC, there's extra incentive for development around high transit areas whether that be a bus stop, future train, stop major nodes throughout the city. Each program has its own little nuances but generally speaking the TOC applicable areas are definitely a good place to look at for the extra incentive. Absolutely, so do you find then that it's competitive for these somewhat limited sites that are near transit? Yeah, it definitely adds a lot of value to a site for a ripe redevelopment or new construction project you have a lot of opportunity to think about. In terms of density, parking reductions everything from setback adjustments. And there's a pretty long list of incentives. And I think the local communities through community plans and overlays have been starting to adopt their own sort of interpretations. Of the TOC areas for better or worse. I think it's really competitive. And much as zoning likes to push things forward, the state reducing the parking requirements is always an interesting benefit and gives a developer a lot of flexibility. But in some ways, we're still asking ourselves the question are we really ready to put up a new multifamily building with minimal, if not any parking? Right, are tenants ready for that? And then are you seeing any shifts at the community level? Nimbyism has been such a problem throughout the country, especially in California. Are you seeing any shifts there? People may be more open to new development than they might have been in the past. I can say that historically, L. A has been very traffic focused. And so, the traffic impacts of anything you planning to do on a site is highly scrutinized. So, interpreting the 2035 mobility plan in Los Angeles and, having that constant struggle with pure engineering in terms of expanding roads versus widening sidewalks is always kind of a juxtaposition there with the city's rules. But from a community perspective, I think there still is some apprehension about putting commercial traffic on local roads, depending on where these nodes are throughout the city. But generally speaking, there's a lot of food deserts out there still, especially throughout South LA. And so, you have to improve the infrastructure and you have to bring in that traffic to get a major retailer or some real, commercial focus to those areas. There's a tension between getting the foot traffic, but yet the traffic on the roads for the neighbors. Are you having success? Are there specific things that the neighborhoods communities are looking for in new development? I can say that there is definitely an apprehension towards any above ground parking, city planning, through community involvement has really put a restriction on above grade parking. They don't want to see it. They don't want to feel it. They really understand that it's, not the most visually pleasing and it's, left to the open market. We'll probably not make it the most beautiful parking structure out there. So, there's a big push and kind of incentive to put parking underground which has its own costs and implications. I think that's probably the most notable, storefront percentages certainly scrutinized in a lot of community plans. Of course, setbacks. At any time, you're building commercial next to residential, there's always some transitional height impacts relative to maybe some residential across the street. And how that impacts height restrictions. It's just always interesting. These things that are nice to have that we want, but end up adding costs to the projects, moving parking below ground makes the units more expensive. And then, it's just the circle of affordability. it's especially tough when you have that income stream somewhat restricted at the moment it starts to make the underwriting a lot more difficult. Are there things that new development can bring to these communities that would be an asset? And not just, looking at things from the liability I think the right tenant mix is really the secret sauce to any sort of redevelopment of an area not just a Pacific particular site, but an area and community. I think, asking around, talking to your local community, figuring out, what really the needs are the idea of bringing in a major. Grosher sounds great and it probably will add a lot of traffic and access to cheap, affordable food, but at the same time, it could also displace a lot of local businesses and restaurants that have made the community what it is years. And so it's a balance, it's a balance of both but reaching out to community, understanding their needs, I think is the first step and seeing what's viable options relative to the right type of tenancy in the right, area. Is there a lot of effort then on personalizing the project to the community doing pre, planning meetings with the neighborhood groups. What is out for you guys? It starts on many different levels depending on the process. I can say that LA has definitely made a name for itself in terms of having a lot of different stakeholders as part of the process. And so getting out in front of that early on will definitely help smooth out the process. The last thing you need is a bunch of different community members showing up at an entitlement hearing and voicing opposition for various different reasons. And so really getting ahead of that. And identifying, who these key stakeholders are and what their needs are and what the community sort of evolution looks like and what your plans are. And aligning the development plan with their goals is usually a step in the right direction. It can really streamline the process. Absolutely. I'm thinking about some of the older buildings that might be rehabbed. Is that something that you guys are looking at as well? In terms of not just cost standpoint, but carbon footprint infrastructure that might be in place for some older buildings being, older residential buildings being repositioned or older buildings of other uses being converted to residential. Adaptive reuse is an ever changing policy in Los Angeles. I think they're actually in the process of overhauling the current ordinance now and expanding it beyond the downtown historic area. It certainly has a lot of advantages, there's usually a speed to delivery. You don't have to tear down a building, you don't have to dig a hole, you don't have to build a superstructure so that speed of what you're doing is usually a little faster and can shave some money off the cost of the project. But at the same time not every building is equal. And assumptions of the things that can really kill the design and construction process. Every time you peel back a layer of the onion, it might get uglier and uglier every time you get closer to the center. It's certainly a different process. If you're looking at an existing building and looking at converting it, repositioning it, really doing a lot of due diligence and not making very many assumptions and going into it conservatively is the right approach. Everything from a failing structure to a failing roof to leaking basements to aging MEP systems or outdated electrical service. There's situations where utility providers are saying, you're connected on a very old circuit and that old circuit can't support this proposed use that you're planning on doing whether or not the service is grandfathered or not. And so literally everything needs to be highly scrutinized to have it be viable because you really don't want to start a project like that and then get caught with your pants down halfway through it can really, make for an ugly situation. I can imagine we don't have as much of a track record for rehabs as we do for ground up new construction. I mean, seismic retrofit has been pretty standardized in LA since, 94. But the seismic retrofit process is one of many in terms of everything you have to look at an existing building. Is there a particular type of building that, would be a good candidate for reuse? Are you seeing any commonalities in, what's out there? Yeah, you have to kind of look back at the fundamentals, If you're thinking about converting a building from office to residential, is that community really supportive of residential use? Is that ground floor street presence really conducive to ground floor apartments? What is that parking looking like? Where did these residents go? It's not just providing parking throughout the day, but also at night. So the parking question is almost inverted. Is there enough services and amenities in the community? Is there a place to get coffee? Is there a place to go to the grocery store to pick up your dry cleaning in the area? Those are questions that we get a lot. And then from a building, structure perspective , most people don't want to live , in a converted office building with a glass tower, and so architecturally does it support kind of a more warm and friendly residential purpose. But also the floor plate size, what does that vertical transportation look like? No one really wants to sleep in a dark bedroom, but there's creative ways that you can bring light and air into a deeper unit, given the floor plate. But there's always design challenges opportunities in some ways, depending on the floors. And overall efficiency, most adaptive reuses are not as efficient as new construction. And so what are some creative uses that you can do with that sort of middle, dead, dark area in the center of a building, whether it be storage or amenities, or, way to cluster the new MEP infrastructure around the core, or, common bathrooms, depending, so understanding the bones and the premise of the building, both on the exterior skin perspective, but also from the interior floor plate. Is usually a good place to start if the community can support the use that you have in mind. Exactly. Such an interesting challenge. Do you think are we seeing the beginnings of this as a trend? Or is it, kind of a passing thing? I think there's some great examples of some successful adaptive reuse projects in LA, especially on the historic side of things. There's been a lot of movement downtown. There's a lot of good advocacy groups out there trying to help raise awareness and streamline the new decision makers relative to adaptive reuse because it's not The same as new construction, there should be a, specialized expedited process. Not everything applies when you're dealing with different agencies. Yes the fire department has very specific code or requirements, but at the same time, when you're dealing with a hundred year old building that may be historic or not it's really just not conducive. I think the community and the city at large needs to make a decision. Are they going to support adaptive reuse or are we the type that, we're not going to be flexible on some of these codes and we just have to tear it down and start over? It's sometimes boils down to being that simple. When it comes down to cost and the limited income that you can get from some of these projects , all the different bringing systems up to current code is sometimes just not viable. Certainly. So do you think that the municipalities are they playing catch up right now, trying to figure out the processes I think most are. There's a lot of beloved buildings in every community and understanding what those are as soon as you file a demolition permit for a building you can get a lot of uproar from the community. And so at the same time, it's like, okay, well. We need your help to renovate this building to keep it for what it is and to reuse it in a simple way and whether it could be something as simple as parking requirements or setbacks that, in some situations, these older buildings could be overbuilt which is something that you couldn't build if you tore it down and started over. And so there's a lot of opportunity there and unlocking potential value. As we kind of wrap things up, what would you say then are some bright spots out there for the housing market? I'm seeing the interest rates are, kind of flattening now. Things are maybe stabilizing. Are you feeling like some of that pent up demand still there? Are, we looking at a better 24? I guess it depends on the market and exactly kind of which sector you're talking about. I think multifamily is certainly going to have some headwinds ahead of it, even throughout 24. A lot of the analysts are saying that, maybe we'll start to see some uptick and, restoration of some of these rental growths that we saw the past few years towards the end of 24. Right now it's still looking like a downtrend. But then again, that's on average nationwide. Every coastal community is a little bit different. Even some major cities in the central area as well. I think, understanding what the market dynamics for apartments are understanding what flexibility you have unlocking some of those incentives and those TOCs type of areas. Or value extracted from an existing building can really help. Normally in these situations, there's a fleet to luxury product and trying to juice as much as we can on the income side, but even that has its own limitations. The supply chain and construction costs , there's some things improving. I think the market is getting more competitive out there. The projects permit starts are certainly starting to slow down. So the competition is coming back, but there still are some supply constraints, especially on the electrical component side. It's very difficult to get any major electrical equipment in the better part of 12 to 18 months. There were so many cranes up for so long and I think builders just got used to, a certain level of development. Now, the things have slowed down for a time. Are you feeling like they're getting a little hungrier? Are there rates coming down at all? As the financial markets kind of tighten up the flexibility of new developments certainly slowing down. And I think as that pipeline starts to slow down on the construction side that competition starts to come back. So there's always a push and pull there. As much as they don't want to realize that it's all cyclical. And I don't think we've seen the worst of it yet in terms of the interest rates that have been rising over the past few years. I think it's going to get a little bit worse before it gets better. Well, fingers are crossed. We'll see what happens. Thank you so much, Alex. I really appreciate your insights. It's such an interesting time particularly multifamily in your world here. So thank you. there anything else you'd like to add before we step away? No I appreciate it. I think, everyone's opportunities are a little different in every market, but , it's times like this, there's opportunity out there as well. And so it's really a reliance on fundamentals and not making too many assumptions out there. All right. Well, we'll leave it there thank you again, Alex. Be sure to follow the podcast for more developments on architecture and visual design. We'll see you next time.

Hello, and welcome to the Creative Viz podcast, where we delve into topics surrounding architecture, development, and visual design. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Aun Qazilbash with Capital Developments, and he serves as a manager for pre-construction and design in Toronto, Ontario. It's great to see you. Thank you, Scott. Thanks for having me. You bet. Today, we've got a lot of ground to cover. Toronto's a huge market. There's a very active, busy market there, particularly for residential. So, lots of topics. Want to touch on, I think, top of mind here is, to hear about projects that you have going on. You mentioned that you are very active in the center city, as opposed to the wider GTA, greater Toronto area. I'd love to hear your approach and, like I said, just touch on a couple of the projects that you have going on right now. Yeah, absolutely. Some of the projects we're working on right now is 8 Elm, for example, in downtown Toronto. That's very close to Dundas Square Eaton Center. And it's a 69-story building with a three-level underground, very unique tower. It's one of the first buildings here at Capital and one of the first in Toronto that will have an automated parking system, actually. So that's a very innovative technology that's being implemented in that project. And being so close to the downtown core, many challenges that we've encountered. So I'll give you an example. One of the main parts of the approval for that project were there's a heritage component to it. So we had to do a heritage retention, panelization, and restoration, which is quite a difficult undertaking and from an engineering point of view, challenging. So that's an example of one logistic challenge we encountered. The other solution we implemented on that project is we utilize a temporary slab. It's essentially part of the permanent structures like a slab installed at an early sequence in the project, but essentially the purpose being it helps with logistics and lay down and providing some area for actual construction activity, whether it's for equipment or staging to take place. So those are a few of the challenges of building. This is going to be in excess of 200 meters when it's all said and done. Building in Toronto downtown and being very conscious and aware of the neighborhood, the surrounding traffic, obviously, and everything that's in and around. That's awesome. Toronto is especially noteworthy for the height of these towers. There's so many very tall buildings, underway all through the city. Do you feel like there's enough expertise locally to build these very tall buildings do you run into a problem of the builders being stretched a little too thin with simultaneous projects? I think there is a mixed category of builders, obviously. One of the key areas for success on a tall building is your pre-construction and planning when you are designing your buildings, whether you take it from schematic to design development to actual tendering and construction set of documents, you want to make sure that how you're designing is always overlaid with what are the cost implications of certain things? What are the logistical implications? Everything's going to be kind of within the realm of what you're trying to finally deliver, right? Financially and from a scheduling point of view. So a lot of the successes depend on making sure that you are able to attain and achieve schedules that you've forecasted and built into your proforma. The other is obviously the budgets and that's where a lot of the failures lie. A competent developer, if you look at Capital Developments a zero building last year is a 32-story tower that got completed last year, 350 units during COVID and it hit schedule and budget. So it's just an example of the pre-planning that went into that project really carried out into the execution. And, at the tail end, you come out successful. Whereas, if you look in the headlines in Toronto recently, there are a few projects that are out there that are not doing so great in terms of being able to achieve those key Right. It's a difficult market for sure. I can imagine with all of the scheduling impacts. There just has to be so many added costs for developing and really tight spaces within the city. Do these tall towers command the premium for the cost that goes into them versus some of the outer areas where logistically may be easier to build? Absolutely. I think there are premiums. For example, 8 Elm. One of the towers we're doing, it's going to have an RCS system. So it's basically an enclosure around the tower that climbs after you've crossed the podium level of the building. And that provides a safety enclosure that you could build and perform that work in a safe manner. So that's a premium that is on a project. One of the other solutions on that project is an interior hoist. So a lot of times the hoist that will be utilized for material and labor manpower handling is on the outside. When you implement on the inside, it kind of frees up a lot of the outside. So it gives you a bit more flexibility on maneuverability inside your project. But then, it comes at a premium. There are definitely those additional premiums. But when you weigh it against the schedule benefits sometimes, or the overall objectives of the project, you do the analysis, it works out in your favor a lot of times. Otherwise, you wouldn't do it, right? No, absolutely. For sure. I'm thinking there must be certain thresholds where not only do you think about different kinds of structures that go into a tower, but also different types of units or different amenities or the tower itself might have a different program once you exceed, say, 40 levels or 50 levels. Are there thresholds that you see currently with the different projects, like different sweet spots, if you will for different types of towers? Towers are definitely getting a lot taller in Toronto, and it is more challenging. And, the instinct might be that more density, higher towers are more profitable and easier to build and less on construction costs. But the reality is there is a fine line. Anything between, I think, 30 stories to 50 stories is kind of like the ideal height, I would say, for towers. 8 Elm, which is 69, for example, there was an analysis that was done if it needed a mass damper at the roof. So this is a big structural member element that's on the roof and it helps to stabilize the building because you're exposed to a lot of wind forces at the top. So we were able to avoid that just by being able to be within the height tolerances, but those are some of the challenges you will encounter as you climb taller. When you work at those heights, productivity, everything from getting material up there, everything from considerations on your building, there's a lot more that needs to be taken into account. I think it's progressively a bit more difficult when you exceed the 50-55 story. You start getting into unique challenges above that height. Yeah, that's interesting. And I imagine it's, like we were saying a second ago, those units up there, they must come in an extraordinary premium to make it all pencil. There's definitely a premium. Anytime you're at the top of the tower and you have a much nicer view. And a lot of time on these taller towers, you'll have a nice amenity up there as well. You'll get the terraces and the balconies sometimes as well. So there is a premium associated with it. Just purely on that principle, but there is a fine line between how much premium you could actually request on a product like that versus if there's going to be a market demand. Right? So there's a fine line. You've got to work within it for sure. And with all the density that's come to Toronto, have the neighborhoods embraced the new developments, these really tall buildings perhaps in areas that didn't have them in the past, and how do you navigate that landscape of making sure it's a good fit for the neighborhood? There's always reluctancy a lot of times in neighborhoods that you add density. NIMBYism is a quite active force that works against you many times. So nobody likes density in their neighborhood or in their areas. It's a sensitive topic to navigate around. I think you just have to be really conscious about being there and doing the right thing for the community. You need to know that, yes, you're providing density, which is housing for people. That's a value add. I think in general a net positive to society, but also you want to give back to the community. So whether it's in the form of a parkland dedication, whether it's an additional amenity that you're offering, or an initiative that you're carrying out for the community, or as you're navigating through the entitlement process, I'm mostly on the construction side. So I see it more at arm's length, a lot of times it's really just listening to what the community concerns are. And then going back to the drawing table and figuring out, these are the key things that the community really cares about has voiced their concerns. So what can we do to accommodate that? It's really keeping your ears open being receptive to what the community has to say taking that into account, not just spearheading only your vision through, right? It's a collective process for sure. And I imagine there are ways to do this without adding cost to the project. Yeah, that is always a challenge there are ways to do it. But you go to the drawing board, you assess everything, you look at the cost and then you come back and you have these discussions, really valuable discussions. A lot of times you do end up being out of pocket as a developer, but you know that it is overall the better good for the community, and it's addressing a concern that has been really voiced in community meetings or by the neighborhood or the counselor in general. And you kind of work through those things. I understand Capital is very focused on the downtown core of Toronto, the spine essentially along Yonge Street. Is that a conscious decision or have you explored other projects, other opportunities within the greater Toronto area? Is that something you're looking at in the near future? I think it's a constant discussion inside our office. I'm close to a lot of the acquisition people, and there's definitely a consideration to look at projects outside of the city of Toronto. A lot of the projects have been on Yonge Street between, what is Eden Center and say North York, which is Yonge and Finch. This is literally the artery that runs north-south in the city. There has been an approach to look at projects, but nothing has penciled out till now. You want to tread really carefully when you go into another market. There's other challenges, other municipality challenges, that will come in play as well, but there are some pockets that are emerging. So if you look at the Vaughan Metropolitan Center, for example, that's an area outside of Toronto North. That's like the northmost subway stop that will go from downtown and there's a whole pocket of condominiums. That has emerged. Pickering Town Center, there's another just east of the city of Toronto has a development that was announced this year. That's going to see about 10 buildings coming in that area, which is very high density. I think it's about 6000 units. So there's a lot of projects that are coming in the GTA. I think the approach of Capital for now has been open to the idea, but it's got to be the right opportunity, it's got to be something that really pencils out and makes sense. And then you go from there. Yeah, it's interesting. And then something else I wanted to touch on is mixed-use development as a new model for certainly urban sites creating diversity and program keeping the activation that we have in our center cores. Is Capital looking at mixed-use projects? Do they have any underway? Is that something that you guys are exploring as well in new development projects? Three years ago when I joined Capital, the biggest one that comes to mind is Art Shop. Art Shop is a mixed-use development. It's near the Yonge and Eglinton nodes, so a little bit north of downtown. But it's got about 25, 000 square feet of retail. It's got an anchor tenant in Farm Boy, so anytime you have a condo with a grocery store anchor tenant, I think there's an immense value. If you're a resident, it's very convenient for you to go down and even for the neighborhood, right? To be able to have that facility available to you. That's got a restaurant, Retta, an Italian restaurant, which is very nice. It's got Staples. So there's some key retail that are in that building. So that's an example in our other projects. There's a retail component to it. We haven't explored a major project, for example, like an 18-story hotel or something of that sort. Again, open to the idea. I think here at the company, but you want to tread carefully because you want to make sure that it all works out at the end. Of course, it's difficult. The first one's always the hardest. Absolutely. So then, let's take a look. What do you see on the ground? Are there any trends in Toronto looking ahead? When I see the market, the towers just get bigger and bigger and taller and taller. Do you think that will continue to be the case? There's been discussion of the housing market kind of taking a breath here, kind of catching up to demand. Are you seeing any of those types of things from your perspective? Yeah, I think the biggest challenge has been, the Bank of Canada has raised the interest rate by 450 basis points, right? So what it was in 2022 at half a percent, it's now 5%. So financially, a lot of developers have to look at their proformas and the predictions and the forecast and make sure it makes sense financially, right? So I think that's been a big challenge. But on top of that is an overlay, which is you have a housing shortage in Toronto. Immigration is continuing to grow. The population is continuing to grow in Toronto. Canada, you have three, four major cities. You have Vancouver, you have Montreal, you have Toronto, and then maybe you can include Calgary or Ottawa in that category as well. So with the population increase, density absolutely and required, but it's got to make sense. One financially. So with the interest rates, that's challenging. I would say that's a big headwind that the industry is facing. And the second is the navigating through the regulations and the municipality and the approval for the entitlement and how long it sometimes takes from the time you submit your first application to the time you get an approval for your development, it's quite frustrating sometimes, right? Because, once the clock starts ticking, you have expenses, you have loans that you need to take care of. So once, that clock starts ticking, it's very challenging. So those two issues could maybe get a little bit mitigated or improved. I think there's always going to be opportunity in Toronto. Toronto is a thriving economy market city. There's a lot of dynamic nature to it. I just think those are a few challenges that are really right now in the industry. Temporary challenges, it sounds like, but the demand is more permanent. That's the impression I get. In the long term, for sure. I think historically, if you look at a statistic where in the last 15 years, year over year, pre-construction pricing has always gone up year over year. This was the first year it actually went down, oh really? just because of some of these challenges. So that just shows if you look at a historical chart, you'll always see a linear incline. And now that's kind of stabilized, right? But if you look at the future, I think it's going to continue to grow. There's going to be a demand in the city, but one of those things when you have such a high cost to produce right now, really have to look at it. But one of the great things that have happened recently is the government just announced on rental buildings, they're giving a tax break. So if you are pursuing a rental project, the 13 percent that you would have incurred as a tax implication on that project, you could avoid that. So now many developers are looking at the opportunity where maybe the condominium doesn't make sense, but a rental tower makes sense. It's a whole different pursuit, but that's an approach a lot of developers are looking at. As I think historically the majority of new units delivered are for sale, condominiums. So do you see a change in rental properties becoming more available? That's definitely the idea with this new initiative that has been introduced into the market. You want more rental housing available, and this will incentivize a lot of developers to do it, right? So if you could get a 13 percent discount on your costs, this tax break definitely looks a lot more lucrative. Right? So I think the answer is should improve. The amount of shovel-ready projects that you'll see in the future and potentially the amount of projects that come into the market that are going to be rental it's still early days. So, with any initiative that is implemented, it takes a little bit of time to really see what the overall impact is going to be. I think the next 12 months to 18 months would bring that to light. I think a lot of developers are seriously looking at rental as a pursuit. That's really encouraging. I know affordability has been such a challenge. So hopefully, that will take some of the sting out of entering the market, being able to afford to live in the center city of Toronto. Absolutely. And just about bridging the gap. The amount of houses that are introduced into the market right now are substantially lower than the amount of people that are coming into the city. So whenever you have that delta, you're going to automatically see, just the forces of supply and demand are going to force rents up and the cost of housing up. If you could shrink that gap between the amount of units that are being delivered by the city versus matching the quantity of people that are coming then in theory should improve the situation. I hope so. It's been challenging here, especially in the major cities of Canada. I'm sure we could revisit Toronto. There's a lot of interesting developments certainly what I believe North America's fastest-growing city at this point, Toronto. Thank you so much, Aun, for giving us insight into construction, affordability, all of these factors that go into creating these amazing new towers in Toronto. Thank you so much for joining us. Be sure and follow us to stay on top of all new developments here at Creative Viz. Thank you so much, Aun. Thank you for having me, Scott.

 Hello  and welcome to the CreativeViz podcast where we delve into topics related to architecture, development, and visual design. Today I'm really pleased to have Dodie Preston here on the podcast. She is the Director of Creative and Experienced Design with Berkshire Hathaway Home Services and Fox and Roach Realtors. She represents the Mid Atlantic region and today we're going to talk about her role with Berkshire Hathaway, what she's seeing in the markets and,  a few other topics related to marketing and sales and different types of new developments. So with that thank you, Dodie. It's great to see you. How are you today? I'm very well. Thank you. Happy to be here. I'd love to learn a little bit more about your day to day role with Berkshire Hathaway, Fox and Roach. We had talked earlier about how your position lands somewhere between the development teams and the sales teams. How do you position your marketing efforts? In a nutshell, what does a typical day look like for you? The B2B and the B2C business one supports the other. So as a business, we're designing things strategically for the agents to be able to promote their business, both as an agent and for each individual home that they sell and advertise.  To the best of their ability and fast and on the go agents are always on the go there seldom working hours that anybody else works holidays, they work and all of that. So it's a, it's a business that needs to support them from wherever they are on the road. So the landscape from whenever I started in this business, I won't, without dating myself, I won't say just exactly how I've in this business, has changed a lot and it's so exciting to be and to see, to be in it and to evolve with it and see what's next. We as Fox and Roach Realtors have a hundred year history. On the upper, North Atlantic areas so we have a lot of clout, a lot of tenure here.  There's a lot of trust built with our name and having Berkshire Hathaway behind us as well is huge.  We can lean on that brand the agents can lean on that brand and we support them with a lot of materials that continue to build that trust. Right. Is there anything that kind of jumps out recently I'm thinking of, ChatGPT, other AI tools potentially. Is there anything like that? That has been a big change for you and your team? Well, certainly our marketing development team has jumped on that bandwagon of ChatGPT and helping these agents to, be able to build a description for a home using ChatGPT. We have webinars that are set up and it's amazing how quickly they did that. Our SVP has his finger on the pulse of that at all times, and it's been impressive to see. We're trying to support them in the best way we can with that. Some of them embrace it. Some of them do not, whatever serves them best. Dodie what kinds of properties are you typically involved in, in marketing? Is it primarily housing? Are there other types of properties you're involved with? We do have commercial also have a new homes and land development division as well. That rolls under our purview.  It's all very fascinating to watch. Oh yeah.  As, you know as an architect, home ownership and home purchasing and the building of a home or the redesign of a home is all emotional. This is where your memories are. We strive to, align whatever we're marketing and to help the agents align with the strategy with a purpose and then design with a strategy. So we align with the purpose of the home getting to know the back story if there is 1. We have loads of historic, deeply historic homes here. It's amazing. Those are always fun to walk into whether it's on the page or on the website or physically. So we have those we have urban development, lots of small studio apartments to luxury penthouses and things like that. Then we also have the beach, New Jersey shore, Maryland shore, Delaware shore homes like that, whether they're 2nd homes or they're retirement homes. So we run the gamut. Yeah. That's great. How much of that would you say is new ground up new development versus existing properties.  I'm not sure I can give that a percentage. Oh, okay.  We don't, as a brokerage, work directly with the developers, but the agents do. So what we define for them as marketing materials is so that they can approach a developer that they have or have not worked with before. I'm just thinking about the challenge of trying to position a property that doesn't exist if it's still on the boards or under construction you're having to communicate that to a potential buyer. Get them to visualize something that doesn't exist yet. That can be, that can be really challenging. That's where a rendering comes in. Yay.  Yeah. You're familiar with renderings? I sure am. Is that's part of your kit? It is part of our kit. Are there things that your buyers are particularly attuned to I'm imagining a scenario where they're looking at a new development versus an existing development in the same neighborhood, what sort of factors might they be considering between the two? Yeah, that's. I know that's big. It depends on how much you want to dive into what affordability is. Right, right. Maybe the builder is offering something more in their package of a new home than a home owner can possibly do. Existing. Yeah. Although we offer financing. So the agents get more into that. They get more into that.  For your role, this is where I get fuzzy. So thank you for that. How do you know, the materials that you're putting together, the, the package , the positioning, shall we say the property, how is that different new versus existing or urban properties versus suburban or resort, locations, What are the factors that or the elements that you consider when you're putting together different positioning packages? Whatever I'm working with, whatever type of product that I'm promoting, whether it's a home or a new development, I'm creating a mood,  I'm creating the story to let them know what the back story is on a historic home or the home.  Maybe it's been lovingly owned by one owner for 45 years and it's been super, super well kept. Or a new development what the future could be in this development, what the builder holds out as their story, there's a storyline to it tap into that to create that feeling for somebody to have a connection that they can see themselves in a home. That’s my goal. So partnering with the marketing team with the agents and knowing their back-story. Even the history of an agent, they might  have history working in certain areas. So they know it very well. They have a legacy there, so they can speak to that as well. And it just, it's creating that mood and it's what works. It's the beauty of it that comes forward of the storyline.  Absolutely. Oh, I love that. That's, really interesting. And it truly is personalized to the property. Everyone has their own nuance, right? Right. So it is customized. We provide the agents with a lot of materials that they can work with. But when we work to customize marketing materials, portfolios, books,  online, everything, literally, it is a custom feel to it because  we're not like any other brokerage out there, we’re not. Our agents are as individual as any other homeowner. Right. Right. I, as a creative I never stop thinking about how it can be better. I can go two weeks, two months, two years, come back and go; I wish I would've tweaked that a little bit more. When the agent or the homeowner or the executive when they're happy, when my team has hit that mark of what they hoped this would look like, what this would say, and the design expresses what they hoped to push into the market. That's when we stop. Yeah. And then if they think about it 2 days, 2 weeks. They'll come back and say, wait a minute I've rethought that. We always start with a creative brief and the creative brief gives everybody who touches that product whether it's a writer or a designer or it's a social media person, they understand, what needs to push forward, and what needs to be developed, and released. And then  you're sort of making sure that all these different pieces come together and create something,  bigger than the sum of the parts, right? Well, we try. Yeah. That is the goal. And I will say that we work very hard to hit our mark. I imagine. These assets that you're creating, do they have another life beyond the potential  sale?  Do people, keep  the photography or, the story elements that you're talking about  producing? Do they have another life? I have a 25 year library. Oh my gosh. Before I started, the digital library started 25 years ago. So I've been keeping that updated. We have a lot of legacy stuff. That’s got to be amazing. Keeping specific notes on properties usually is held with the agent. Okay. They have more of it than we do, but I have loads of pictures and images and renderings and all kinds of things. Aerials, you can see put an aerial side the before and after that all that kind of stuff. Oh my fascinating stuff. Are there any over that period of time that are outstanding for you? Obviously nothing, confidential or anything like that do you have a favorite? I love to see the changes from Center City, Philadelphia. Oh, yeah. clearly, where they've might not even have anything to do with housing, just to see the development of certain areas Avenue of the Arts. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Nothing, you know, it's full of theaters and venues and all kinds of things. I do love the luxury homes. They're so elegant. I love reading and filtering in the history of something that started somewhere in the 1700s has been added on to and looking at the architecture and seeing where the original house was on the property. Even tiny little homes that have carriage homes and, little capes, they all have such charm.  I also wanted to touch on the aspect of affordability. That's going to be, top of mind for a lot of people, particularly with housing. We would  love to hear your thoughts on the challenges that you see. And obviously you're going to portray affordable projects in a very different way than,  a luxury or historic. What are some of those challenges for you? Well, the affordability aspect has both helped us and hindered us. We're no different in that respect. We are no different than any other brokerage. We do have many things that we can offer clients that are unique to our brokerage, The full gamut of anything that you could want for buying a house, not only with our agents with tenure and how professional they are but title insurance financing, mortgage financing, we offer that as When rates were low and inventory was low, that was a massive impact across the board now that rates are higher and there's still little inventory. Right. That's impactful for our bottom line the difficulty that agents are having out there. So we try to support them as best we can. Yeah. Are there things that you and I can do or Berkshire Hathaway can do to help the supply problem if that's going to be part of the solution, you know, changing the affordability matrix. I think with making sure that we treat each individual property with the respect it deserves, moving it forward, you never know who's going to be able to afford. It's not my job to say this luxury house has more emphasis or should take more of my time. That's really all I can offer on that.  Continue doing the best I can. As the markets are changing as it's becoming more difficult to enter the market, do you feel like other areas within your region urban, suburban, other areas are becoming more attractive to say young buyers trying to enter the market. You seeing any differences in that way? It hasn't crossed my Desk in that way. I haven't seen anything like that for our brokerage. Now, we are expanding our focus with commercial a bit and that's been interesting. What are the challenges then on the commercial side? We're talking what office I imagine? We  don't do high rise office. We low rise office. Low rise. And strip centers. I don't know where the plan is to go in the future so I can't speak to that, but commercial's taking a hit as well. Absolutely. I mean, you're at home. I'm at home.  What are you seeing? What's your take on how that is affecting the office market? Are you seeing return to work or are tenants having tougher negotiations as a result. We're not in the property management side of commercial. We're in the sales part of it. Our particular department has gone back hybrid.  We spent a couple of days a week in office. It's about team collaboration. We still have people in our department who are in other states that can't make that. It's been a blessing to be able to work from home for me, personally and other people that I've spoken with. It'll be difficult to go back. Full time in office was very difficult but we get a lot done. Remotely I know people on our team that just don't stop. They just work all the time. Sometimes it's very late nights over here at home. Yeah we all have them. Of course well let me maybe re ask that question as it relates sales. Some markets are still quite depressed for office space. Are owners are they getting squeezed? Do you feel like there's more perhaps urgency to loading an underperforming property or is there any kind of shakeup, in the market? I'm thinking particularly like in the B and c class that are getting really, really hit right now. I am curious to see where that lands. I do think that building owners are being squeezed to move property in some way, maybe even to repurpose a property. Was going to ask you that too. I'm very curious to see the future of that.  I think it's still new, post-Covid. There's a lot of talk about urban office, development, older urban office buildings, converting to residential, hotel, other uses. Is that the case for the low rise? Have you seen any kind of inklings of that yet? I have not seen that yet. I can imagine that in Philadelphia since it does have such an urban, living population, I can imagine that a number of buildings would trade out at least part of their building for housing. I was talking to somebody, they're talking about urban farming, you know, converting some of these, really under, but well located buildings to completely different use. Getting really creative with all this infrastructure that we suddenly have in our hands. That serves two things. Not only for the building for the neighborhood. Farm to table right there. Absolutely. I like that. Thank you, Dodie. Is there anything else we should  touch on before, before we wrap things up? I don't think so. Terrific thank you again. It's been a pleasure to have you on. Really appreciate your time and joining us today. Thank you so much and take care.  Scott, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.     

Welcome to the Creative Viz podcast, where we dive into topics on architecture, development and visual design. Today we’re tackling a transformative topic in our field: the integration of AI and real-time rendering. Generative AI is top of mind for many of us in creative industries, and I have actually held off on broaching the subject here for a little while as it has been evolving too quickly. A year on from the introduction of ChatGPT 3 and the wider adoption of generative AI tools like Midjourney and Stable Diffusion I believe we have a better sense of where things are headed now and hopefully we can start to make sense of it all. But by no means will this be the last word on AI & archviz - stay tuned as I’m sure there are new surprises just around the corner. For now, let’s explore how these technologies are reshaping our industry, from enhancing creativity to revolutionizing workflows. We’ll start with the promise of AI, then explore some of its limitations and go on to discuss important ethical considerations as well. I’ll weigh in on whether or not AI will replace you, and finally gaze into the crystal ball to make some guesses as to where this could be heading. So… in the world of Archviz (architectural visualization), AI and real-time rendering are more than just emerging technologies; they represent a paradigm shift. Gone are the days of static, time-consuming rendering processes. Today, AI’s infusion in our field is leading to groundbreaking changes. Real-time rendering, powered by advanced AI algorithms, is not only speeding up our workflows but also allowing us to experiment with designs in ways we never thought possible. It’s an exciting time for architects and visualizers, as we stand on the brink of a new era of digital creativity. What does this mean for the traditional methods we’ve relied on for so long? Well, it's not just about replacing the old with the new, but rather enhancing and augmenting our existing skills with these powerful tools. AI and real-time rendering are enabling us to push the boundaries of architectural visualization, offering a glimpse into a future where our ideas can be visualized almost as quickly as we conceive them. AI is already assisting in complex tasks like lighting adjustments, texture creation, and even generating entire scenes autonomously. Real-time rendering, once considered to be the holy grail of rendering, is now a daily reality for many of us, offering immediate visual feedback and drastically reducing the time from concept to visual representation. For designers, these advancements are not just about speed; they're about the opportunity to explore and ideate like never before. With real-time rendering, iterations that once took days can now be explored in hours, if not minutes. This rapid turnaround is changing the way we approach design decisions, allowing for a more iterative and dynamic creative process. It’s a liberating shift, freeing us from the constraints of time-intensive rendering and opening a world of creative possibilities. For visual artists, real-time rendering can remove much of the tedium associated with creating realistic textures and the imperfections that make a digitally-created image look more photographic. Entourage - that is people, trees, and cars in architectural scenes - benefit in particular from the ability to use generative content instead of relying solely on 3d content. It doesn’t work every time, but replacing 3d “props” with generative substitutes can substantially speed up the process of adding entourage to a still image. Additionally, there is a notorious lack of diversity in existing entourage libraries, and AI algorithms can do a much better job of creating figures that bring a sense of realism and scale to the scene. Having said all of that, there are significant limits to what is possible today and what will likely be possible for some time with AI content. When you look at an architectural rendering, many of the textures and almost all of the entourage in the scene are stand-ins. That is, they are important elements but could be swapped out for a substitute very easily with little or no effect on the scene as a whole. This is where AI really shines. Most of the fixed elements in the scene however, are truly custom one-off pieces. No building is the same as another, and very few interiors spaces are the same - if they were, then you wouldn’t need a rendering? So the architectural spaces themselves need to be invented every time with exact fidelity to the design documents. In additional to the building itself, many elements within the space are unique as well. There are often custom furniture, art pieces, and objects specifically designed to inhabit the space to be visualized. These all must be modeled in 3D and assembled according to the architectural and interior design. Another thing to consider here is that the location of the new building in its context is usually a crucial part of the messaging. For an exterior rendering in an urban setting, the existing adjacent buildings often need to be rendered with as much care as the new one in order to give a faithful representation. Early-phase development will be granted approval or not based on how well the new building is perceived to confirm to the guidelines and requirements of the particular site. For interior renderings, the view outside is often an important part of the story - consider the value of the view from a penthouse apartment. Although there are certainly times when a generic stand-in created by AI will do, in nearly all circumstances, depicting the view as accurately as possible is essential to the authenticity of the image. A lot can depend on this in a marketing campaign for instance.  In both of these examples, this unique context must be created in 3D or with photography, or sometimes a combination of the two. AI is simply not up to this challenge - at least not yet. Rendered archviz images need to be accurate of course, but they also need to be visually pleasing if not beautiful. There are existing algorithms that can go some way towards recognizing or even measuring beauty, but it is still up to the artist to compose the image properly. At best, the working with AI tools to generate a beautiful image can mean sifting through lots of options that need to curated and judged for quality. It remains to be seen if AI can actually speed up the process of setting up and composing an image that a viewer would find pleasing. Then there is the problem of AI generated content being self-referential. The current set of AI tools are trained on existing content to generate something “new”. Most of these libraries are cut off in early 2022, just prior to the launch of the tool itself. As a result, we cannot expect AI to give us something we haven’t already seen before in many ways. Already, there is a certain look to AI generated images and it’s incumbent on the artist to not rely too heavily on AI in order to avoid creating something stale and lifeless. Therefore, true innovation in image-making is still very much up to the artist. I also want to touch on the important ethical questions surrounding the use of AI imagery, especially around the authenticity and ownership of these visuals. As we integrate AI into our workflows, we must be mindful of ethical implications. We need to consider issues like copyright, the authenticity of representation, and the potential for AI to replicate existing designs or elements without proper attribution. It’s crucial for us as professionals to stay informed and conscientious about these issues. We must establish and adhere to ethical guidelines that respect intellectual property and the integrity of our work. This responsibility is shared among developers, users, and the broader creative community. As we navigate this new terrain, let’s commit to using these powerful tools in a way that respects the artistic and intellectual labor that goes into architectural and visual design. There are of course broader implications here well beyond archviz. I am hopeful that the AI algorithms will not get ahead of the creative process and that the creators of original content will continue to be fairly compensated for their work. For now, it’s important to be aware of the potential for this problem and be diligent about knowing where the content that you are using is coming from. The integration of AI in Archviz also brings up questions about staffing and production efficiency. There's a common concern that AI might replace human jobs, but in my experience, it's more about shifting the nature of our work. AI can handle repetitive, time-consuming tasks, freeing up human talent to focus on more creative, high-level aspects of visualization. It’s not about reducing staff but empowering them to be more creative and strategic. On this front, I am much more hopeful, as I believe AI can lead to more job opportunities in our field. As we can produce higher quality work more efficiently, the demand for skilled professionals who can leverage these tools creatively is likely to increase. The key is to adapt and evolve, to learn how to work alongside these technologies, harnessing their potential to enhance our skill set and the unique services that we offer. So let’s take stock of where we are right now. For artists, if you haven’t done it already go create a free account, dive in and start making things. If you are used to creating images in 3D, you may astounded by the responsiveness and speed with which AI images can be created from scratch. You may also be astounded by the visual mistakes these tools can make. But dig in a little deeper and investigate ways to integrate AI into your existing workflow, especially for adding entourage and props. For a client looking to commission visual design, it’s a good idea to be aware of the possibilities that these tools provide. But, be wary of any solutions that claim to automate the entire process. Ensure ethical sourcing of AI content and maintain open communication with artists about how AI impacts their production. Looking ahead, the possibilities for AI and real-time rendering in Archviz are boundless. We’re already seeing the beginnings of what these technologies can do – from creating immersive virtual environments to aiding in complex design decisions. But we are clearly just getting started. In time, we could see a complete transformation of how we conceptualize, visualize, and interact with architectural spaces. Imagine a future where virtual and physical spaces are seamlessly integrated, where clients can step into and experience a design in real-time, making changes on the fly that are instantly visualized. This level of interactivity and immersion could redefine the entire architectural process, from ideation to presentation. It’s an exciting prospect, one that promises to elevate our industry to new heights of creativity and innovation. As we wrap up, it's clear that AI and real-time rendering are more than just tools – they are the first steps into a new era in architectural visualization. They offer us a glimpse into a future where our creativity is limited only by our imagination. So, let's embrace these technologies, explore their potential, and continue to push the boundaries of what’s possible in Archviz. As I mentioned, we're going to continue to talk about AI developments in future episodes, but for now we’ll leave it there. I hope I’ve given you a lot of think about on the very important and timely topic of artificial intelligence. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to give us a follow to stay on top of all the latest developments and I will see you next time.

 Hello, and welcome to the creative viz podcast, where we dive into topics related to architecture, development, and visual design. Today's episode, get the pleasure of talking with my longtime friend and client, Sean Slater, who is a senior principal with RDC heading up their San Diego office. Sean, thank you so much for joining me today. I know you're a crazy guru in the world of retail and architectural design I just wanted to get the, conversation started today talking about what you're seeing in the retail world and how, things may have changed post pandemic. You know what works today that might not have worked quite so well a few years ago. Sure. Thank you, Scott. It's a pleasure to be here with you. And as you said, we have known each other for a very long time back when we used our hands to  I know crazy, right? Yeah. That is a blast from the past so interesting topic, because I think that for the last 10 years, this retail apocalypse is all that anybody could really talk about. And, you know, since that's so central to my career and what we've been doing, it's been kind of scary, of course. The reality is that we've gotten into mixed use and there are many assets to retail, design and development that weren't impacted by the sort of the Amazon effect and the online ordering. But I will say the first few months of the shutdown scared me to death because I thought, here we go. Everybody's going to get so used to this, to having everything delivered to their doorstep, instant credit cards. All of this is going to create such friction that we may not see any more retail development. This may be it. And I'm happy to say, you know, however many years later we are now that was wrong. I don't think anybody could have really predicted the social impact of that isolation. And in that shutdown, as we sort of went through year one and then Omicron and anxiety started to build. And then you could start to, I mean, at least we could in our firm, the discussions, there's going to be pent up demand here. There's got to be a moment where people are going to want to get back out and shop again and we started hearing, you know, anecdotally, people would say like, yeah, every day I get like 12 boxes on my. Doorstep and it's all this cardboard and it's all this stuff and I have to send it all back and you know, I'll get three of the same thing and only one fits and I send it back and it's just this big hassle. And gosh, remember the good old days when you went in, you tried something on it fit, and then you bought it, when I started hearing that and I started realizing, oh, even women who have kids and families and are just busy, busy, busy, they would still rather go to Target. They would still rather go to the mall and shop for back to school clothes. There are certain things like. Dog food that you probably don't have to go get dog food at a store, but the things that you want to try on the things that you want to see if that color looks good on me. I mean, there are just a million things that in person experience and shopping could never be replaced online. And I think that what COVID. I mean, I think what covid ended up doing was actually the opposite of what we thought. And it's really sort of prompted people to get back into the nostalgia of being around people and shopping. And of course, food and beverage is a huge part of it. And that's kind of the biggest change over the really the last 15 years.  So I think that this is, it's been a really good several months. Let’s say last six months. We've started to really feel and the statistics are starting to prove it out that people want to go back that bricks and mortar retail is really strong. It’s also has to do with the lack of other. Avenues for investment right now. So with office kind of catering with residential construction being extremely slow right now. People are putting their money into retail projects. Whereas before there were a lot of industrial sort of sucked all the energy out of the markets for a while. That's kind of hit a good spot, I think, as far as supply and demand. So they're looking for avenues for development. As I tell my team, all these developers have to develop. That's what they do. If they don't develop, they don't have a job. So they're looking at our sector now, the mixed use and retail sector and saying, well, there's still opportunity there. And now that we're seeing people shopping again, let's put our money back into that. So it's been an interesting sort of ride over the last three or four years, but really the last 10 years has been what's really been interesting. Yes. Many questions here. So from the real estate, development, aspect, you think that there's more, money moving into, retail mixed use for, kind of short term investments or do you think they're looking more long-term? I think both. I think there's always this renovation market Oh, sure. Properties need to be upgraded every 8 to 10 years or they fall apart. So that's sort of a steady thing, but I think what the difference is that we're, starting to see. The big developers look at their assets and say, we're not just going to upgrade it. We're going to transform it now. We’ve been doing the cosmetic stuff for 10 or 12 years as we've all been worrying about. Is this even going to be a market in 25 years. Well, now I think that the confidence that we've got a good piece of property here. We have good tenants. Now we need to make it a place that people want to come and stay. And that's been, the mainstay of the mall really has been dwell time that you could get people. It had enough shops. It had the anchors and activities and programming that you get somebody on site and they're there for hours. That's the goal. So even smaller developers are starting to see that instead of just painted up, fix it up. They need to add. Trees, they need to add benches and water and play areas for Children and grassy areas just to soften the space up. So a lot of what we're looking at right now with existing properties is that and new, construction has been much slower because we are way over retail as a society and especially in the United States. So I think a lot of it really is just rethinking current properties. and then the mixed use part we'll talk about  So the types of retail, you touched on this with food and beverage, but I can imagine, things like trying on clothes, an AR app will only get you so far, do you types of, retailers, thriving, versus some that, you know, electronics stores, as a classic example of something, it just may not be what it was 10 years ago,  And that, that's okay. The evolution happens within any market. Interestingly, the two markets that were the most very negatively impacted cinemas and fitness. When the pandemic first started, restaurants could go outside.  That was a wonderful kind of urban experience for a lot of people would eat outside for the first time, even in snowy. Northern climates I want to go out to eat. I got to sit outside. So I think they were able to survive the peril, their online platforms had been built out.  You could still buy Nike. If you couldn't go to the mall and get it. But fitness, you got to be there to work out. And as we all saw with some of the online fitness apps and a lot of the online stuff, Peloton being the poster child for this, they just went like this and then they went immediately down.  That means people went back to the gym. They didn't just get fat like me. They went back to the gym and in a serious way, the cinemas, however, the investment that folks made into their home. Setups their home theater setups. That’s a grandiose term, just a big TV with a good sound bar, really.  Then what the cable companies and all of the streaming companies putting original and first run content on, I don't know what's going to happen with that market. And that was such a mainstay for entertainment districts. It worries me fitness back. For sure, back, cinemas, not so much apparel has been struggling for a while. I think it's probably in the same place. The folks that do it really well, Nordstrom for men, for instance, they have maintained their customer base. I think that a lot of the more boutique and really luxury always kind of rises to the top. When you go to South coast Plaza in Costa Mesa, California, there's a line outside of.  Versace. There's a line outside of Ferragamo. It’s insane, so there's still very much a market. It's the commodity stuff, t shirts and underwear that used to go to Macy's to get. You don't need to do that. And nobody wants to do that. So I think that sort of the really commodity clothing, you can go to target and get the same quality now when that was not a. Thing that happened about 20 years ago. So I think that the bifurcated markets, very luxury fitness experience oriented. And then there's really just perfunctory daily needs stuff. They're both really strong. The other thing I'll say in our firm is very involved in the grocery store market. And again, when it first hit, when COVID first hit, I thought, Oh my gosh, what are we going to do with this? Nobody's ever going to go back. Well, it did two things. It requires much more physical. Real estate to do delivery. So you have to have whole rooms for people to do the shopping and collect the bags and then, infrastructure to get it to cars. So we, our firm was doing a lot of that, taking parking lots and taking two or three parking spaces and figuring out how would you do delivery. From the inside of the store to the outside of the store, the physical space inside whole departments kind of went away to create room for that delivery piece of it.  That’s been an interesting thing to watch. I think that's probably here to stay when you think about it, going to the grocery stores. Often not the most fun thing. You know, whole foods or one of these beautiful Erewhon markets, which we do, those are fun. Those are purely about shopping for food. And I think that's an experience that people absolutely love, but getting your post toasties and all of that stuff, you could do that online. You can just tell somebody to put it in a bag for you. I personally don't do that, but I know that the time saving for a mom to just kids in the back of the car, just grab your bag. Curbside and take off man. What a, great innovation that has been. Oh, absolutely. So, so you're in touch with these retailers. Do you hear from them that, people are shopping in person more often, versus doing, the Instacarts you know, people are, they're shopping more and they're carrying fewer bags. I guess that's the story that I would say they're back in their numbers are back. And in fact, probably ahead of where they were in 2019, as far as pure foot traffic, but sales in store have not recovered, but that's okay. They're buying online. They're there to see something, to feel the product, to feel like they're part of a brand. So the upfront, let's say the first 20 feet of a retail store is not product necessarily. It's a story they're trying to tell about their brand, about who you are when you come into their space. So we have a store design group that, does rollout, but then also does bespoke design. And they've. Then booming also because the thinking about is the experiential nature of it. It's much less merchandise and they don't need back of house really, because you don't need every size of everything because they're just going to order it online. So it's really about how do we present who we are as a brand, bring you in, make you loyal to this brand, and give you a good experience. You know, before the pandemic, the. Shinola is one that I always use. The watch is made out of Detroit. You’d walk in and the first thing you got was a beer. And if you're a guy shopping, that's kind of a nice thing in a chair to sit in. And I just always thought they're starting to understand that if you want people to come into your space and spend you get whatever that experience of if it's a tea shop, you're for sure getting some tea, right? You know, what do you do in a clothing store? How do you bring people in with that? And there are many, many methods that different retailers use, but it's about getting that traffic back in knowing that then they're going to go on their device or they're going to go home on their desktop or laptop and make the purchase. But the loyalty was built really in the in person physical shopping. But there's still an allure to coming to the shop. Do you feel like that is that’s still a problem for a lot of retailers. Okay, we got you in, but the point of purchase might be happening. You might go back and buy the thing on Amazon  I think anecdotally the Macy's at Horton Plaza, for instance, was doing more in returns than it was in sales for years. So that's a bad balance right there. That just says that the physical real estate's not working for that particular retailer and that a smaller format or a different location or something was really called for.  And department stores have been they're not coming back. I would say in there, 1980s format. They're not coming back. They have much smaller footprints. They're really a fulfillment center. Honestly. You want to be able to go and return your stuff or pick up, you know, the right size shoes that you ordered. I think that, a small format. Macy's just opened here in San Diego and I thought, what in the world is this going to be? And it's the weirdest thing because it's a little bit of everything for everyone, because you're not literally buying the thing on the shelf. You could, but you're seeing what range of product they have. Then you're going on the app or going on your desktop and then you're buying. So they've kind of, they understand now they get it that the consumers are not. Going in there to buy, you know, a packet of socks necessarily, they are going in there to kind of see the full range of socks. You've got then they can go back home and buy it. So it's kind of an acknowledgment that world has changed. And they're able to do it with a smaller footprint, Exactly. And you don't need the back of the house. You don't need 27 people working. You don't need a shoe infrastructure. If you think about it, the usually have a huge. Either downstairs or in the back of house every size because if you don't,  Somebody going to not buy. So you don't need that. You just need for people to be able to see your options in some cases, try stuff on, but, otherwise they can, go home and do that. It comes to their doorstep. So it's this interesting hybrid has been created where it's more important than ever to have a great physical space. So beautiful, great, engaging, very open, very themed and brand centric, but then don't expect people to buy, they're going to go home and buy, they might buy there, but that's not why they're building these things out. Looks a little different. It looks different. Exactly. Well So as an architect, what do we do with all of these big spaces? A lot of the tenants we're talking about have very large footprints, high ceilings, department stores, cinemas, underperforming retail today, you know, potential big box, locations. What do we do with all that space? Our landlords, re imagining them, you know, what kinds of, opportunities do you see, there? Good question. You know, again, going back to my comment about how. Problematic some of the other big vertical markets are the office market. Port plus is a good example, but there are many others department stores are built like tanks. They're really robust structures. They were, owned and built by the company or by Nordstrom.  So they took pride in them, and they have very high Florida floors, 18 feet, often Florida floor height. So you have great lofty spaces. That, you know, very regular column grids. You have that sort of donut in the middle where the escalators are that you could open up to the sky and put skylights down the middle. So office is a great use for it. Biotech life science, because of the plenum space for the sort of air evacuation, but those markets aren't currently growing very much. So I think a lot. Of the department store boxes are going to be probably fallow for a while. I hope that developers don't just tear them down because of the. Embodied carbon waste of that, but also I do think that market will come back. I think that, you know, the creative office, which is what we were all talking about, you know, until March 20th of, 2020, that evaporated because Silicon Valley was one of the earliest ones to say, you don't need to come back and we'll just send you your infrastructure home. Now, all of those tech companies are starting to lure their people back. And we're all realizing, and I've called, you know, an architecture firm tech adjacent. So we have a concierge, office experience coordinator for a 200 person architecture firm so There's always a party. There's always something going on. There's usually a huge potluck, at our office. It drew people back into the office. Well, we didn't think this up. The tech companies really thought it up. So I think the first people to take some of those department store and larger formats will be, creative office  The idea of a room full of brains, working together is just so compelling and it's been proven to works, for innovation forever. I think that hopefully we'll start to absorb some of those spaces. Some will be torn down. Been doing retail subdivisions of those boxes for many years. I think that's probably at the end that some of that will still happen, but most of those boxes have been divided up, however, they're going to be divided up. And then the number one thing that's happening is that they're being torn down and apartments are being built in their place. So malls. Are being now sort of spotted with apartment complexes when those department stores go down, then they build an apartment community, and then I guess the idea being that at some point, it's a full ring of apartments with some residual retail in the center as an amenity to the apartment. Interesting. So, mixed use truly.  Yeah, I think that's the most likely solution for a lot of people is to go mixed use, That's great. So leads me to the next question. What does retail look like in mixed use, development, environments versus retail only, you know, we're all very familiar with what the mall is. And what the anchors and the subtenants might be, but what's the mix like for, the project that's envisioned as mixed use? you know, it's interesting, Scott, we are brought in more and more often now to take a look at those ground levels and help them figure out what the heck they built, you know, they built a bunch of apartments, they built a bunch of condos, whatever it was that they. Build the developers built. It was almost like just a loss leader to put that retail. And I've heard that over and over again from residential developers. I don't know retail, but the city makes us do it. So we'll just put some retail and what they built is terrible, terrible retail. So very shallow depth, sometimes lots of columns right in the middle of the space. No loading doc. And the worst thing that they do, often it's very low ceiling. Restaurants really have to have a 18 or 20 foot ceiling in order to get all of the ventilation in order to create that ambience that you want when you go into a restaurant. We're building spaces with, you know, a typical 12 foot, floor to floor retailers don't want that space except unless you're a dry cleaner, unless you're a nail salon, So what we would call sort of, you know, higher end retail, apparel, retail, They're not going to take that space. So I think that what we often do is like, say, we'll go outside the building and pop up if you can, if you've got any sort of amount of room to get a taller ceiling to get that piece Okay. Yeah.  Or. The natural thing to do post COVID is just really push all of that activity outside onto the Sidewalk, if possible.  At Texas medical center in Houston, Texas, there's a 6Million square foot, tech campus being built research campus being built and. Gosh, you know, it's probably been under design and development for a decade. So it's been through the entire retail apocalypse story and it's opening now and they're realizing, oh, we didn't think about this. We weren't thinking. We built these beautiful parks. It's a pedestrian environment. It's got thousands of highly paid doctors and research scientists up above that are going to come down and we didn't give them. A great place for their wives to come visit or their husbands to come visit them and then on the weekend to come back to. So we have, gone through a process of sort of taking each of their office buildings, which are beautiful, beautifully designed research buildings and saying, but your ground floor isn't working. So how do we engage the park? How do we create a restaurant space? That's going to work. I would say that, like, over 50 percent of mixed use. Ground level is food and beverage now, and that's those are expensive deals. They're expensive to fit out I think. The latest statistic that I see, it's still 50 percent of restaurants fail within the first year, more than soft goods, which don't have the sunk cost into it. So I think it's a risk and it's the risk that most of our clients are willing to take because they know if you don't hit people kind of in the stomach in the place, their hearts and their stomachs where they want to engage, then you're not really. Hmm. So if you've got the cool pub, if you've got the great sushi place, if you've got, you know, the place that the kids just make you go to, that's going to work and it's worth the investment into the food and beverage spaces themselves. So it used to be like 10 to 20 percent and developers hated those restaurants because they were such expensive deals. Now it's 50 to 60 percent and they're still hard,  The turnover is harder, they're more custom, there's a lot of equipment, there's all kinds of overhead, that works for them, because it's, getting enough foot traffic, yeah. It's also the way to bring in local. so one of the things that in my career, which I'm nearing 30 years on now has been, we've always had a really hard time. So developers need national credit. That's kind of one of the things that they've always said that they're not going to take the risk on a mom and pop at a large percentage. So when we would design regional malls, they would start with the story of, oh, 20 percent is going to be local. Never happened. And if it was, they didn't make it and they turned over pretty quickly and then just your national tenants went in. Food and beverage is an exception to that.  Every city has its own sort of set of great local restaurants and many of them would love a new outlet, a new place to go, but they're not national. They might be regional, but they're not national. So they do have credit. They have sort of proven themselves that they've been open for 8 or 10 years for a restaurant. That's pretty great. If they're ready for a 2nd or 3rd outlet, that's a risk. I think that developers are willing to take and embrace because it's got name recognition within a community. It's probably going to make it if the food has been vetted for a decade, it's probably going to be good and people are going to enjoy it. So, you know, to put in another Chili's now, it would be a negative. You bring in a mom and pop from downtown that's moving, into a neighborhood. That's a positive.  You’ve got that built in sort of constituency that already knows the name already wants to come there.  Then you can take some risk. Then the ice cream guy that's just starting up, you can take a small risk like that. I think that's a really big shift. That’s got to take place in mixed use developments, and it is taking place in mixed use developments that the nationals don't draw people the way that they did when they were all under one roof at a mall. A standalone gap, a standalone J crew just doesn't work very well. It needs to be in a mall setting, but, a taco shop from San Diego that's got a huge following.  You know, put it in, in the ground floor and you're going to have people there and drinking beer and having fun. Awesome. Well, you mentioned a minute ago you're looking at converting these spaces, is tend to be an additive solution or is it possible to make it work with, the structures that you have, or is it maybe a combination of the two? Usually it's a combination, but I guess the, easiest solution, it all has to do with the, ceiling height. If, you've got a good ceiling height, there's a lot of room to move what we do a lot of time. We’re often constrained by our sidewalks. So if you have a 10 foot sidewalk and you have a tree great and then there's parking or live street, that's really not enough room to get much patio seating. So you're not going to be able to extend your brand out. So we say, move the storefront back underneath the building. So you've actually got outdoor space undercover. Before you get to the door of the restaurant. So then you've kind of doubled your patio space and that's specific to restaurant and food and beverage. Soft goods retail can be made to work in a lot of mixed use. If it's a 600 apartment complex that ground level is most likely going to be service. So the things that people need a wine shop, things that can kind of live within that and then restaurants. And if you can pop people outside, then the ceiling doesn't matter. And then, how do you deal with parking, with the, radical change of use like this, because food and beverage has a higher parking requirement than soft goods, right? Yeah, there are many complicated formulas, but the biggest complication now is that many cities and I'm sitting in one are creating these overlay zones, which requires zero park. We’re in a crisis, a climate crisis, and I think that the world, especially elected officials are waking up to this in a way that they realize we have to take drastic action. San Francisco, when I lived there had a zero parking requirement. San Francisco is a really special place in the world. I kind of get that. But I mean, Dallas, Texas, places like that are going to start adopting zero parking requirements. Now, a retailer is going to say something different. They're going to say, I need 10 spaces per thousand square feet. And the developer is going to say, well, I'm required to give you zero. You want 10. Can we settle at five? And there will always be a need for parking, either onsite or proximate if you're not near transit. A really vibrant transit, not just kind of a bus stop never really brought a lot of people.  I think that parking solutions, regional parking garages. So, when you find a really great mixed use district, and often these develop over a long time, Pearl Street in Boulder, something that we all talk about just a beautiful place. They have regional parking. So, the solution is you don't need to go park for that tenant. You park in every third block, there's a pretty sizable parking garage just like you would at a mall. That's how you shop it. I think that in apartment villages, and I think that some developers probably should start looking at using some of their land to build serious parking garages that could serve a larger area than just their block or half block because a, there's a lot of money to be made in parking and B, there's going to be a demand. And if a regular apartment developer just puts kind of traditional retail at the base, they're not going to give you maybe one spot for each place. So how do those people park? They're not all living upstairs. So they're going to need a parking solution somewhere in the vicinity. They'll walk a block. They don't necessarily have the performer to build enough parking on site for every single retail and then food and beverage, is. Really 10 parking spaces per 1000 square feet, is what the U. L. I. as an average. And often we can't do that, certain markets, Texas, Florida. You’ve got But not San Diego. Hot, really cold, really rainy, but not San Diego, not the West coast. Yeah. Yeah.  There’s sort of transition happening where people are getting their heads around the fact that we may not build any parking for the retail. And will it be successful? And then you have to think of all of the other ways to draw people  Yeah, then it's a chicken and egg. What kinds of retailers are going to be able to survive in a zero parking, environment, or a low parking environment. Yeah. I guess one of the last things I want to touch on is, kind of the territoriality of this. So you might be dealing with one developer to develop the retail as you're doing mixed use. Are you working in partnerships or are, developers sort of getting out of their own box and, creating their own formulas for different uses.  I say, 20 to 10 years ago, it was all about teaming so you had your apartment guys; you had your retail guys and let's get together and do a project. I don't see that much anymore. I think that people are the mobile piece. So the developers themselves will move. So if you're. Avalon Bay or an Amelie apartment developer. You may have a guy that came from Simon or who came from Brookfield who knows retail on your team now; instead of we need to team with Brookfield because the margins are just too skinny to have a partner of that scale. So I think what's happening is that no, it's gone the other way. It's more we're going to do this in house if we have to build the capacity and then hopefully they lean on us as architects to help them. Solve these problems. I mean, that's what we do. So I think that more and more, maybe we're seeing companies take on the whole bundle now in a way that in the past, it would have been more of a collaboration or a team and they lean on us and they hire, you know, hired guns, essentially in the development world who know how to put together a complicated process, they work on that project, maybe they work on one more and then they go off and work for another company. So it's a, it's a little bit of a different model than we would have seen over the last couple of decades. I guess I'd like to think it's less designed by spreadsheet you know, cause those easy sites are, are spoken for at this They're gone. It's a Yeah, they're pretty much gone. The low hanging fruit has been taken up, not always by the best use, but it's certainly been taken up. And so creativity, urban infill, there's just a lot of exciting sort of one off. Projects, and then I guess the last thing I would say about that is, and it's been very interesting. We are seeing private wealth. Invest in real estate in a way that's never really happened before. if you want to put your money in the world, somewhere safe, it's United States real estate you know, the land here has held its value. And if not grown, better than anywhere else in the world. And for sure, better than a lot of stocks and bonds and a lot of other investment. So people, investors from around the world and families that have, you know, large trusts are putting their money. Into real estate and they don't know how to develop. You know, they came from, sharecropper. I don't know what, whatever field they came from. They made their money and they're asking us and they're asking their, friends, how do I do this? So they're hiring. These kind of hired. Guns in the development world that don't go over to the Middle East. They actually stay here, work with these families or these trusts that have billions of dollars and start to actually develop projects. Horton Plaza was not developed by a development company. It's developed by a capital fund. And they hire developers to, like I said, 1 or 2 people, 3 people can do a half a billion dollar project within the organization of a large capital fund, rather than building out a whole Brookfield to do projects. So it's a lot more agile and, it's personal money, which also stockholders are the family. Not anybody. So it's a little less pressure to make that money immediately to get your stock, keep your stock price up. A CEO is not going to lose his job because they made an investment. That's going to take 10 years to pay off and. I don't have 10 years. I got to make that ROI now Yeah, that's a really interesting point, that the horizons are longer for these types of projects, They have more patients, the capital fund. If they're going to invest their money, it's a long term investment in the bonds. So it's a long term investment into real estate. So I think that those are very analogous places to put your money, and a very safe thing to do. But again, they don't know how to do it. They've never done it before. So they're either hiring a developer or they're hiring us and a developer to kind of help walk them through that process and use our experience and tell them the truth. The truth about how hard it is a to do it and be how important it is to do it right and that you can, invest that money any way you want. If you don't do it right, you're not going to get the return that you want and that your family members or your organization wants. So the quality has to keep going up and I think that the internet has been the great equalizer. You can Google Ferragamo right now and see what a Ferragamo store is. And before only a. 1 percent knew what that was. So everybody knows quality when they see it. Every single person who shops understands quality in a way that they never have before. So what we always preach is you've got to bring it. If you think you can do this cheaply, your consumers know that and they are going It's not good enough. TN on that and they're not going to come back and they're going to say, I don't like that It's competitive. And it might be visceral or it might be literally tiles falling off The No, there's that too. A wide range, you know that if you don't pay for it up front and really invest in that, then you haven't made a very good investment. So to me, that's a great sign  I think that's just about all the time we have today. I could spend another hour. For hours, right? A great topic. Thank you so much, Sean. I'd love to have you back on again. Once we've got some, new things to talk about here. And I'd love to hear about anything else that might be top of your mind. Like to sort of say that, ULI, fall meeting was in Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago. I really felt a change in the atmosphere. I felt there was energy. There was a keen. Search for knowledge. I felt that maybe has over the last several years, even pre pandemic has been a little stale. I felt like the energy is back. I feel like there are a lot of new players in the field. So, to me, it was very invigorating. I'll be at the center build conference, which is a conference at the end of November. And I expect to feel the same thing that the. Development world is waking up to kind of a new way of doing things and that COVID has just dramatically changed the way we think about real estate and that it takes new thinking. And that's very exciting for me because I'm always trying to change and innovate. So I think it's a, great moment to kind of be in our world. I think things are going to change. And I think in a very positive way. I think so too. Always good to end on a positive note. There's so much glim and doom out there, in real estate otherwise. I'm with you right there. Thank you so much, Sean. Avoid the news and watch Scott's podcast. Hey, thank you so much. There we go. Love it. Thank you so much, Sean. Make sure you guys follow, to keep up to date with all of this and we will see you next time. Thank you so much. Thank you.

"Hello, and welcome to the Creative Viz podcast, where we dive into topics related to architecture, development, and visual design. Today, we're going to be talking about digital twins in the built environment, going beyond the buzzwords to explore the intersection of archviz and digital twins, both today and in the near future. A digital twin is a virtual replica of a physical object or system. Created using real time data for our purposes. We're going to limit the dissection to new development projects or individual buildings, but it's important to know that they're often used to simulate transportation networks or even entire cities, digital representation of a building or a site allows for simulation analysis, optimization of the actual entity that it mirrors. Bridging the physical and digital realms. If we consider that the role of archviz is not just to make a new development look pretty, but to be more legible, then the opportunities for these two fields to overlap becomes clear. So in some ways we can think of Digital Twins as being an evolution of traditional archviz . Archviz is primarily focused on creating static visual renderings or animations for architectural projects. Digital Twins, on the other hand, offer dynamic, Real time digital representations. And while archviz offers a visual snapshot of a design concept, digital twins can integrate real time data. analytics and simulations, making them more interactive and informative. When we think about increased engagement, archviz tools, typically VR or AR, are increasingly being used to provide immersive design walkthroughs. When combined with digital twins, these walkthroughs can reflect real world conditions, modifications and impacts, giving clients Investors and end users, a much richer experience becomes possible then to not only view a property, but to interact with its digital representation, altering parameters, observing changes, and even predicting future challenges. So then there are many opportunities for collaboration In early phases of development, archviz can act as the front end visualization layer for digital twins. Realistic renderings can be paired with the data driven back end of the digital twin. As architects and designers iterate on a project, changes can be instantly reflected within the digital twin, with all stakeholders able to see updates in real time. During construction, archviz can be useful to communicate the final design to stakeholders. Typically, this will be during the sales or leasing efforts. Both in commercial and residential settings. However, there can also be used for training purposes in industrial, research, and even educational projects. Another thing to be aware of is the feedback loop that's possible. In the life cycle of a building, archviz is most useful in the pre occupancy phase, whereas Digital Twins are utilized both before and after construction. Once the building is complete and operational, digital twins can collect real world data such as energy usage or occupant behavior. This data then can inform future projects to be visualized, creating the feedback loop that makes designs more attuned to real world performance. a logical extension of this feedback loop is that the buildings themselves may move beyond the static entities of today. Using the insights and data collected from the digital twin, future building facades will be able to respond to weather conditions in real time. Exterior spaces can be reconfigured to accommodate user preferences. Of course, this is just the beginning. There are a number of possibilities for future integrations between the two. The convergence of archviz and Digital Twins is indicative of the broader trend and technology integration within the architectural realm. As we look ahead, future architectural software may not need to distinguish between traditional visualization techniques and digital twin functionalities. Instead, they may offer a unified platform where designers can move fluidly between conceptual design, Detailed visualization, real time data analytics, and simulations. this integration can significantly streamline the design process, ensuring that decisions are made with both aesthetic and practical considerations in mind. So to wrap things up, It's clear that the intersection of digital twins and architectural visualization is revolutionizing both real estate and design. From their inception in early NASA space missions to their present day applications, digital twins are expanding our architectural capabilities, merging tradition. With innovation with Archviz bringing these visions to life, we can not only envision, but truly experience the future of our built environment. This is a very exciting time in both fields. I am sure that we're going to revisit this topic again, as it, as is ripe for further exploration. That's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to like, and subscribe, stay on top of all the latest developments. See you next time. "

"Hello, and welcome to the creative viz podcast, where we dive into topics related to architecture, development, and visual design. Today's topic is a crucial one for professionals in our field, how to craft compelling presentations that not only inform, but inspire the audience. Given the importance of visual communication in our industry, getting this right can be the difference between a successful pitch and a missed opportunity. Let's start with storytelling. This is a term that's often overused in our field. But it's very important nonetheless. Begin by understanding your audience. Who are they? What are their pain points and aspirations create a narrative that aligns with their needs and desires. Every property or design has a story - make sure to tell it whether it's the history of the location, the inspiration behind the architectural decisions, potential future of the space. Weave all of these things together. Take advantage of modern visualization tools. Traditional drawings, images, and models are still useful, but integrating state of the art digital tools can elevate the presentation. Stay on top of the latest technologies like real time rendering to give a lifelike immersive experience. For interior projects consider using augmented Augmented reality that's AR or virtual reality VR to create interactive walkthroughs These can make your audience feel as if they are truly inside the proposed space to balance the data that you have with visuals, real estate and architecture are data driven fields. However, bombarding your audience with numbers can be overwhelming. So use infographics, charts, other visual aids to simplify this complex data. Let visuals lead the story. Use data to support. Think of the phrase "show, don't tell" as much as possible to create a lasting impression. Content can be engaging and interactive. Interactive content can make your presentation memorable, so be sure to integrate interactive site maps, 360 degree views, or audience engaging questions or quizzes to maintain interest and encourage participation. Be sure to personalize and adapt to your audience. No two presentations should be exactly the same. So personalize your approach based on the audience. Whether you're pitching to potential investors, clients, end users, adjust your focus. For investors, it might be ROI. For end users, it might be the usability and the aesthetics of the space. So here are a few takeaways as we wrap things up. Crafting a compelling presentation in the world of real estate and architectural design. It's a blend of storytelling, modern technology, data visualization, interactivity, and adaptability. It's not just about showcasing a space or design, but about making a connection, evoking emotions. And painting a vivid picture of possibilities as the industry continues to evolve, stay updated with the latest presentation techniques as the industry evolves, staying updated with presentation techniques like these will be pivotal in making an impact. Remember, it's not just what you present, but how you present it. So that'll do it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening and be sure to like, and subscribe to stay on top of the latest developments. I'll see you next time."

Hello, and welcome to the CreativeViz podcast, where we dive into topics related to architecture, development, and visual design. Today, we're going to be talking about real time rendering technology and look at its broader implications for architectural visualization and real estate marketing. Real time rendering originated in the video game industry, where there was a push to display 3D graphics instantaneously for gameplay. This came at the expense of quality when compared to so called offline methods where longer rendering times are acceptable. The quality of real time graphics gradually improved over time, and only very recently has it been possible to create real time rendered scenes that could be considered photorealistic. This breakthrough has allowed for interactive and instantaneous visualization of architectural spaces. giving design professionals and potential clients a more comprehensive understanding of their properties. real time rendering, creates virtual showrooms where potential buyers or tenants can immerse themselves in the property without physically being there. This is invaluable for international or remote clients who may not be able to visit the space in person. Sales representatives can instantly showcase different finishes, furnishings, or design options tailored to a client's taste, making their pitch. More personal and engaging. When clients can virtually explore properties through real time archviz, they often find it easier to emotionally connect to the space. While a static image provides a snapshot, navigating a realistic digital environment offers a genuine, sense of belonging. And immersion, it allows properties to be displayed under different conditions, such as varying times of day or during specific events. This flexibility provides clients with a deeper understanding of the project, illustrating the properties, practicality, and the different scenarios that it can accommodate, Post COVID, real time rendering can facilitate virtual open houses where multiple clients can explore a property simultaneously from the comfort of their homes. Virtual tours can integrate clickable hotspots to create more information, showcase amenities, or even direct users towards a booking page. In a saturated property market, offering real time rendered visualizations can differentiate a real estate company from its competitors, positioning them as tech forward or innovative. Properties showcased with state of the art visualization techniques may be perceived as more valuable or premium, potentially commanding higher prices. By tracking how potential clients interact with real time rendered environments, marketers can gather data on what features or spaces attract the most attention, guiding future marketing strategies, or even providing feedback for design modifications. Based on user interactions and preferences, marketing professionals can fine tune their advertising campaigns to target specific client demographics more effectively. For a deeper discussion on this topic, And the larger world of digital twins, be sure to check out that episode. So to wrap things up today. real time rendering may be considered a technological advancement within the world of archviz and real estate marketing. It truly is a paradigm shift. Clients now have the ability to virtually walk through spaces, experiencing them under different conditions, genuinely feel the potential of a property. Moving forward, we expect that real time rendering will continue to develop. It'd be more widely adopted and these virtual scenes will become even more lifelike and immersive. Think about metaverse. We'll have to save that discussion. Think metaverse, but we're going to have to save that discussion for another time. That's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to like, and subscribe, stay on top of all the latest developments. I'll see you next time.    

Hello, and welcome to the Creative Viz podcast, where we're going to dive into topics related to architecture, development, and visual design. In this episode, we're going to discuss the high level subject of architectural visualization itself. That's Archviz. What exactly is this, and why do I need to know about it? Archviz is simply the method of communicating To any stakeholders, what a proposed new building or renovation might look like. This has a historical basis going back to fact, all the way back to the middle ages, when the master craftsmen would draw plans for cathedrals that might take hundreds of years. They had the vision and they needed to be able to communicate it to the community. And then also to the people who were going to be. Building the structure, in some cases, many years after they were gone. When we think about architectural visualization, this is a relatively new industry as it exists today. It really only dates back to about the mid 90s or so. As I mentioned, it is rooted in traditional architectural design and illustration. The growth of the industry has been very closely tied with the development of photorealistic rendering software. Today, the leaders would be V Ray, Corona. , as well as real time engines such as Unity, Unreal Engine and emerging options such as Twinmotion and Vantage. In the early days of ArcViz, renderings were quite crude. They relied heavily on very basic 3D models, oftentimes were hybrid renderings, that is, mixed computer and hand drawn illustrations to create final renderings. As the software evolved and became more powerful, New opportunities opened up a big one in the early 2000s was the development of global illumination. this rendering method calculated bounce light and made renderings much more realistic, much more lifelike and true to photography. That was a big turning point for the industry. And we're in the midst of another big turning point as not only real time rendering is taking hold, But also the emergence of AI, as in so many other creative fields, is starting to change how Archviz artists create images and also how they're conceived from the beginning. That's a big topic. I think we're going to save that one for a later one. But important to know that the industry is definitely a state of transition. The other thing I want to mention about Archviz is that as the industry has evolved, it used to be primarily done within design firms. Say an architect would be responsible for the design, the development, the construction drawings, and also the rendering, communicating the design. As the software matured, it takes longer to create the renderings. So the field became much, more specialized. And that's where, the notion of an Archviz consultant specialist really came into being. The nature really of Archviz has continued to evolve to include styles and rendering techniques that might've been formerly associated with Hollywood. Things like cinematic framing, storytelling, the use of live actors against a green screen, and special effects, VFX like pyrotechnics, water simulation. Particles. All of these used to be very much in the domain of high end, industrial light and magic type companies. And of course, now these are well within the reach of even smaller Archviz companies. These techniques are really specialized and much more than, architects, designers. Can, normally account for in their design effort. So it makes a lot of sense to hire an outside consultant at certain points during the project, when it's important to communicate the design. These typically come early phase, something like, well, they're, they're going to be a couple of different scenarios for early phase development. That's going to be potentially pre award like an architectural competition. Sometimes it's useful to bring in a consultant to help. With the, rendering conception and design, sometimes a fresh eye can, make all the difference in winning or not winning that competition. That's certainly one common scenario. The next one, as the project would move forward and it's lifespan. Would be internal or community review, design approvals, things of this nature. That can, that can be internal to financial stakeholders. And then potentially that, could also encompass design review boards, city councils. This is the, oftentimes the first time the public has a chance to review the project and critical that as a developer, you're putting your best foot forward. And very commonly point in time when you want to bring in a specialist that can create these high end visuals, something that might not be good enough if you were just to take something off the boards, as it were, from from a creative, as you move forward through the process, a large project may have. Some visualization needs as you go, particularly for interiors. These high end visualizations can be used to test certain aspects of the design. And this starts to touch on another topic we're gonna delve into a little bit later. That is the digital twin concept. , there's a pretty big overlap between ArcViz and digital twins. So, like I said, we'll get into that. Those tend to be mid phase and then as the project, continues to move forward, potentially point of groundbreaking, this is where marketing campaigns, sales, leasing efforts begin, and it's very important to have your highest quality visualizations at this point. To not only explain and communicate the concept, but truly to sell it to, your stakeholders are going to be first at, let's say, a residential project, maybe buying their home. And so it's very important that they understand what this project, their home is going to look like even before it's built. That can help speed up sales, save a lot of money in terms of financing and approvals there. As you move over to the commercial side, it's also important to. Accelerate leasing efforts. It's a very competitive environment, and, these visuals can make or break a leasing campaign, say, for a shopping center or retail space. If you're looking to attract tenants, they often want to know what this project is going to be like. Well in advance of occupancy and of course the owners want to have deals in place well ahead So as I mentioned arcvis has really matured and this is has come to encompass renderings But multimedia examples and all the way up the range to full fledged short films Many studios are creating Short marketing films as part of the sales campaign to generate interest intrigue for an upcoming project. And, these not only are incorporating some of the things that we may have formerly associated with Hollywood, but they're introducing concepts like storytelling, marketing. And sales into the campaign. This is, another emerging field for archivist artists and studios. This is another avenue that owners, developers, stakeholders should consider for larger projects, really generating high quality visuals for outreach to potential buyers and community stakeholders. That's a really high level overview of what Archviz is all about. Hopefully that's been helpful. Like I said, we're going to continue to explore some of these topics in more depth with later episodes, but for this week, I think that's going to be it. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to like, and subscribe to stay on top of all the latest developments and I will see you next time.

Hello, and welcome to the creative is podcast, where we dive into topics related to architecture, development, and visual design. In today's episode, we're going to investigate a critical element to the success of any creative endeavor. That is communication between the artist and the client. Within our podcast, we're going to be focusing on archviz And today we're going to be looking at what communication should be, or could be, between artist and client for a typical archviz project. Clear communication is important throughout. But there are specific things that both parties can do to ensure things go as smoothly as possible. At the outset, they should each have a clear understanding of the scope, the schedule of of the project. It's important to document this as thoroughly as possible up front. It's going to eliminate any misunderstandings down the road. Both the client and artist should have a clear sense of why the visuals are being, Commissioned. What are the goals? What are, who is the audience for the visuals? And more importantly, what does success look like? This is going to be really different for early phase visuals versus later phase design development review and late phase visuals when we're at a point where we might be selling or leasing the building. Audiences can be very different. Success is going to look really differently. It's very important to identify this upfront and have both parties on board. For the artists, it's especially important to actively listen to the client at this stage as specifically as possible. There may be significant history to the project. There may be landmines that the audience is going to be sensitive to. There may be things they've run into that have created significant problems for them in the past. And it's important for the artist to know about these up front, ask if there are any that the client may not even be aware of and identify these before production begins so we're not wasting any time. And then here are a few other things that the artist should be thinking about as the project moves forward through the rendering and visual workflow. It's really important for the artists to have a thorough understanding of what the current phase of the development project is. If you're creating visuals for competition that's a very different situation, very different set of visuals than for marketing and sales. It's really important for the artist to research the project location thoroughly understand the specifics of the site. Are there going to be any landmarks that might be visible in the visuals? What are local trees vegetation, what do they look like? And this one might not be as obvious, but what does the sky look like in this location? So, I think about a project in Florida. Obviously, the trees are going to be very different than, say, Colorado or Illinois but also the sky. It's going to have a different quality through different times of day, different times of the year. So it's really important to soak in as much of the the specifics of the site, really understand what it's about what the story of the site is going to be, because that will inform a lot of the creative decisions as you move forward, from an artist's perspective to clearly explain the rendering workflow to the client that is when should they expect reviews and what it's about. Is each review going to be about it can help to go ahead and schedule these specific dates. Well, it's not always necessary, but what is important is for the client to understand how many points of review they can have how much influence they can have and reviewing and marking up in progress images as things develop. It's important to do that up front. And then once get to each review point the artist should explain with the draft that they're, are reviewing what. They have locked down and what items might still be in play. So, for instance there are early reviews, you may be just focusing on mood and lighting and later on, you're going to be More focused on the camera positions once are locked down and decided upon, then you can work on entourage and some of the finishing elements. So it's important to do that in a very linear fashion. And it's the artist responsibility to clearly share with the client, what phase of their workflow they're in and what items they should be focusing on the other thing that the artist needs to do within each review is to identify the specific decisions that they are requiring from the client in order to move forward. So, for instance, if you are in your viewpoint review, you can't really move on to the next phase without a clear decision on those viewpoints. It seems obvious, but there, there may be times when you can't quite agree on a viewpoint. In a meeting or via email. So it's really important to, to communicate both sides. We have an agreement or we don't, does this need to go and be revisited or are we good to go because the further along you get in the process, the more difficult it is to unwind things. If you are not in agreement on something so those are a few things to keep in mind for the artist. From the client perspective here are a few other things to keep in mind. Again this may be obvious, but the client should try to stick to the agreed upon schedule as much as they can. It seems simple, but things happen. Things can change. It can be really tempting to push things or feel the need to accelerate things, particularly for a large team. It can be really disruptive to change the schedule once the production is underway. So just keeping that in mind And then throughout the process beginning to, to finish to try to be available for clarifying questions from the artist they don't have as much history with the project they're getting up to speed. You may have as a client spent years working on the project and, familiar with all the ins and outs that the artist just simply isn't. So it's really important to answer These these quick clarifying questions just to make sure everything stays on track. and of course, it goes both ways. If you don't understand something that the artist is doing, if in a meeting you're not understanding what's open for review and maybe what's been decided upon. it's imperative to ask questions of your own. There's really nothing worse than assuming that, you know, what's happening and then getting to a late phase and having a big problem. So as simple as it seems make sure that both sides are asking really good questions. And then of course, listen, to the artists, make that you understand what is appropriate for the review point that you're in and review and approve these items and as timely fashion as possible again, just to keep everyone on schedule Schedule slips can be really disruptive. So it's very important to do that, If possible in real time, but if not, within a day or so is is pretty common. And then the most important thing from the client's perspective is to Make notes or request revisions that are relevant to the stage of the process. If you are in a late. Stage draft, and are having second, thoughts about the camera position, the viewpoint, the time of day, something early phase decision that can create a lot of problems that can be really disruptive in the artist perspective. You may be running into change orders added time, added fee, and nobody likes that. So it's really important to not only have a clear understanding of where you are with each phase, but to make any comments and notes that you have relevant to that phase. If you don't understand, raise your hand, ask a question. These are all good things. So lot of this might seem obvious. It's just in the nature of good, solid communication with that client artist relationship. Typical timelines for ArchViz projects are pretty quick, certainly in the span of a large development project. So schedules are tight deadlines come up quick. It can be really, easy to overlook things. One of the things that I've found over the years is to develop really solid checklist. We have an external one that we share with our clients. And then we also have, one for our internal tasks and that way nothing gets missed. If it's an interior image, if it's exterior we're going to have, real specific questions, real specific things that we need to have. Documented throughout and , that checklist can be a real lifesaver particularly on a large complex archviz project. That's a pretty quick overview and I think that's going to do it for today. I really appreciate you guys listening. Be sure to like and subscribe and stay on top of all the latest developments over here. Thanks again. See you next time.