The Intangible Brand

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Caitlyn Cook, Marketing and Employee Owner Experience Lead at ESS Companies, to explore how employee ownership reshapes culture, accountability, and brand.Caitlyn shares how her role bridges marketing and the employee experience, and how ESS has grown rapidly while maintaining a strong sense of ownership across its teams. We talk about what it takes to build connection across regions, why culture cannot be manufactured from the top down, and how employee ownership changes the way people show up to their work.The conversation also looks at the relationship between employee experience and client experience, why alignment between marketing, HR, and leadership is critical, and how firms can create a culture that actually holds as they scale.We cover: • What changes when employees are also owners • Why employee ownership shapes both culture and brand • How employee experience influences client experience • Why culture is built through connection, not messaging • The importance of alignment across marketing, HR, and leadership • How to maintain culture while scaling a growing organizationRecommended resource: • Radical Candor by Kim ScottConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Brittany Hodak to explore what it really takes to turn satisfied customers into enthusiastic advocates. Drawing from a career that spans entertainment, fan engagement, marketing, and consumer behavior, Brittany brings a sharp perspective on why the brands that win are the ones that create experiences people want to talk about. Brittany explains that customer experience is no longer judged only against direct competitors. Instead, clients compare every interaction to the best experiences they have anywhere else in their lives. That shift raises the bar for every firm, especially in professional services, where differentiation often comes down to how it feels to work with you. The conversation also digs into why leaders often separate acquisition from retention, why that is a mistake, and why every person on a team is part of what Brittany calls the “experience department.” Her core idea is simple and powerful: superfans are the stakeholders so delighted by their experience that they become advocates, refer others, and help create more clients. We cover: • Why customer experience is the real competitive battlefield • How brands move from commodity provider to category of one • What leaders misunderstand about acquisition, retention, and advocacy • Why every team member contributes to the client experience • How exceptional experiences naturally drive referrals • What it means to create superfans, not just satisfied customersRecommended resource: • Creating Superfans by Brittany Hodak Connect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode, Sharon Toerek joins The Intangible Brand to explore how intellectual property and brand strategy intersect. As an IP attorney working closely with creative firms, Sharon offers a perspective that reframes brand as a form of intellectual capital — one that is often misunderstood, undervalued, and underprotected.Key TakeawaysBrand is often treated as secondary to “hard IP,” but Sharon challenges that assumption. Trademarks, identity, and reputation are all forms of intellectual property that can carry significant enterprise value. Many firms define intellectual property too narrowly, which limits how they think about protecting and leveraging it. That narrow definition can lead to missed opportunities to create and capture value. Sharon describes her work as having a “front row seat to creativity,” highlighting how creative output is not just expressive but economically impactful. Brand protection is not just a legal safeguard. It is a strategic lever that allows firms to monetize their ideas, strengthen differentiation, and scale their impact. There is often a disconnect between marketing and legal perspectives inside firms. Bridging that gap can help organizations better understand, protect, and grow their intangible assets.Recommended resource:The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber The Innovative Agency Podcast by Sharon Toerek About the Guest Sharon Toerek is an intellectual property and marketing law attorney and the founder of Legal & Creative. She works with agencies and creative professionals to protect, enforce, and monetize their intellectual capital. She also hosts the Innovative Agency podcast and has served in leadership roles including past president of the American Advertising Federation Cleveland. Connect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry is joined by Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Cline, for a conversation with Neen James, leadership strategist and author of Exceptional Experiences, to explore what it really takes to create moments that people remember.Neen shares how her work with leaders and luxury brands led her to a simple but powerful idea: luxury is not about price or exclusivity, it is about how people feel. We talk about the role of attention and intention in shaping both employee and client experience, and why organizations need to design these moments on purpose rather than leaving them to chance.The conversation also looks at how research can challenge assumptions about what clients value, why teams need to experience care internally before they can deliver it externally, and how leaders can build practical frameworks that make exceptional experiences repeatable.We cover: • Why luxury is about experience, not price • How attention and intention shape meaningful interactions • What professional service firms can learn from luxury brands • Why employee experience comes before client experience • The role of research in understanding what people truly value • How to design experiences that are consistent and repeatableRecommended resource: • Exceptional Experiences by Neen James • Attention Pays by Neen JamesConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Jennifer Sebranek of GBBN to explore what real differentiation looks like in architecture and professional services and why brand extends far beyond logos, taglines, and marketing campaigns.Jennifer shares how firms can create alignment around a clear core message, why consistency across teams matters more than clever positioning, and how marketers can show up as the voice of the client inside their organizations. We talk about what clients actually experience when working with a firm, how culture shapes brand in ways leaders often underestimate, and why differentiation is earned through behavior, not declared in copy.We cover: • Why brand goes far beyond tangible assets like logos and websites • How to build a clear, consistent core message across a firm • What clients actually remember about working with you • The role of marketing as the voice of the client internally • Why differentiation is operational, not just verbal • How culture and collaboration shape brand perceptionRecommended resource: • Unreasonable Hospitality by Will GuidaraConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Pamela Slim to explore what it really takes to scale an expert-led firm without diluting the client experience that made it successful in the first place.Pamela shares insights from her work advising founders and professional service leaders who want to grow into larger, more complex markets. As firms expand, positioning gets blurrier, operations get strained, and client expectations evolve. The tension is real: growth creates opportunity, but it also exposes gaps in systems, clarity, and leadership alignment.We talk about what Pamela calls building a “widest net” business, one where the brand promise, delivery systems, and team experience are aligned. The conversation digs into how market perception can drift from reality, why operational discipline is essential for protecting brand equity, and how leaders can design businesses that scale without burning out their people or confusing their clients.This episode offers practical perspective for professional service leaders who want growth that strengthens their brand rather than undermines it.We cover:What it means to scale without eroding client experienceWhy expert-led firms struggle as they move into larger marketsThe gap between market perception and actual deliveryHow systems and profitability discipline protect brand integrityAligning team experience with client expectationsWhat a “widest net” business really looks like in practiceResources mentioned:Exceptional Experiences by Neen JamesPodcast by Nathan Barry (CEO of Kit, formerly ConvertKit)Connect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with George Ghneim, a veterinarian, restaurateur, and distiller, to explore what brand and experience look like in businesses where emotions run high and the work is deeply human.George shares lessons from veterinary medicine and hospitality, two fields where trust, empathy, and presence are not optional. We talk about how client experience is inseparable from employee experience, especially when teams are navigating stress, grief, or urgency. George also unpacks how he thinks about brand at a small-business level, from naming and visual identity to the signals leaders send through everyday decisions.The conversation digs into how leaders can stay grounded in tense moments, why listening is often more powerful than reacting, and how support teams quietly shape the outcomes clients remember most. Throughout, George emphasizes care as a leadership discipline, not a soft value, and explains why the best brands are built through consistent human behavior rather than marketing alone.This episode offers a grounded, practical perspective for leaders in professional services who want to build brands rooted in trust, empathy, and real-world service.We cover:What veterinary medicine and hospitality teach us about experienceWhy employee experience and client experience cannot be separatedStaying calm and empathetic in emotionally charged situationsHow listening builds trust more effectively than quick fixesBuilding brand through everyday leadership decisionsThe role of support teams in shaping client outcomesResources mentioned:Peace Is Every Step by Thich Nhat HanhConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Benjamin Sachwald, Senior Vice President of Acoustics, Noise, and Vibration at AKRF, to explore a dimension of employee experience that is often overlooked but deeply felt: sound.Benjamin helps unpack why acoustics is becoming a more visible and strategic part of workplace design, especially as organizations rethink offices, hybrid work, and what it means to create spaces people actually want to use. We talk about how “office vibe” is shaped not just by what we see, but by what we hear, and why sound plays a major role in focus, collaboration, and overall well-being.The conversation also looks at why acoustics can feel like a black box for many teams, how late-stage fixes often fail, and what it takes to make sound an intentional part of the design process. Benjamin shares how tools like Pindrop help teams hear design intent earlier, and why creating the right mix of spaces for calls, focus, and collaboration is really about cultural clarity.This episode offers a practical lens for leaders, designers, and firm owners who want to think more holistically about how the built environment supports both employee experience and client perception.We cover:Why acoustics is gaining importance in people-centric workplace designHow sound shapes “office vibe” and cultural perceptionThe challenges of open offices, hybrid work, and acoustic privacyDesigning spaces that support focus, calls, and collaborationMaking acoustics an intentional part of the design processHow tools like Pindrop help teams understand sound earlierResources mentioned:20,000 Hertz podcast, with a recommendation to start with the THX Deep Note episodeAKRF and Benjamin Sachwald on LinkedInConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl talk with Dr. Will Percy, Executive Vice President at TeamOptix and author of Slaying Zombies: Reimagining Workplace Engagement, about why so many engagement efforts feel busy but ineffective.Will introduces the idea of “engagement zombies” the outdated beliefs, metrics, and programs that continue to walk around organizations long after they have stopped helping anyone. We explore why happiness and engagement are not the same thing, how toxicity often hides inside “high-performing” cultures, and why leadership behavior, not perks or surveys, ultimately shapes the employee experience.The conversation digs into how chaos, unclear expectations, and tolerance of the wrong behaviors quietly drain teams, especially in creative and professional service environments. Will also shares how data can be used as a coaching tool rather than a weapon, and what collective leadership actually looks like when it is done well.This episode is a practical look at how leaders can move beyond surface-level engagement efforts and create environments where people can do their best work without burning out or checking out.We cover:Why happiness is not the same as engagementWhat workplace toxicity looks like beyond extreme examplesHow chaos and lack of clarity become cultural toxinsWhy promotions and tolerance reveal true leadership valuesUsing data to support growth instead of surveillanceWhat collective leadership looks like in practiceResources mentioned:The Chimp Paradox by Steve PetersZombie Economics: The Dead Ideas Still Walk Among Us by John QuigginSlaying Zombies: Reimagining Workplace EngagementConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Susan Baier, founder of Audience Audit, to explore how professional service firms can build stronger brands by understanding what their audiences actually believe, not just who they are on paper.Susan explains why demographics and generic personas often fall short, and how attitudinal research helps firms sharpen their point of view, create more relevant thought leadership, and earn trust over time. We talk about what clients really expect from expertise-led brands, how original research becomes a long-term differentiator, and where AI supports marketing teams versus where it risks flattening credibility.We cover: • Why perspective matters more than demographics • What attitudinal segmentation reveals that personas miss • How custom research creates defensible differentiation • What clients actually want from thought leadership • The role of trust, substance, and experience in brand building • Where AI helps and where it can quietly erode credibilityRecommended resource: • Exceptional Experiences podcast by Neen JamesConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode, we talk with Tate Fisher about what it really takes to design service experiences that serve customers, support employees, and work for the business. Tate draws on years of work with multi location and franchise brands to explain why service is always co created and why balance across those three stakeholders matters more than any single tactic.The conversation hits on how to build predictable systems without stripping out humanity, what frontline teams actually need in order to create meaningful moments, and why real behavior should shape both spaces and processes. Tate also shares what he’s learned from navigating franchisor–franchisee dynamics and the north star that helps both sides stay aligned.What We Cover:The customer–employee–owner frameworkHow co creation shows up inside physical service environmentsDesigning systems that free people to deliver better experiencesLessons from telecom, franchise networks, and student housingWhere alignment breaks down in multi site brands and how to fix itResources Mentioned:The Founders podcastLearn More Tate Fisher and Katalyst GroupConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl talk with Brandon Coleman Jr., a brand strategist, speaker, and author who has spent five decades helping organizations understand what brand really is and how culture shapes it.Brandon shares the stories and lessons that shaped his philosophy, from early mentors who challenged him to define value, to the rebrand of his own family firm, to his favorite example of culture-powered consistency at Buc-ee’s. His message is simple but hard-hitting: brands are built by people, trained through culture, and proven through experience.In this Episode• What “Brand On” means and why few organizations achieve it • How culture, training, and consistency shape real brand experience • Brandon’s early lessons in sales, confidence, and telling the truth • The rebrand of his family firm and what it taught him about identity • Why Buc-ee’s is a masterclass in operational culture • How employees become brand evangelists • Why big companies struggle with culture and where it breaks downGuestBrandon Coleman Jr. is a brand strategist, speaker, and author who has led thousands of brand alignment engagements across industries for more than 50 years. Known for his storytelling and straight talk, he teaches leaders how to build cultures that deliver on the brand every day.Resources• The Paradox of SuccessConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and guest host Alec Gleason talk with Shayne De La Force, a marketing strategist and author of Strategic Entanglement, a book that borrows principles from quantum physics to rethink how brand and growth operate together.Shayne shares how global brands can close the gap between marketing and delivery, the cultural insights that inform his work, and why marketers must think like connectors — aligning teams, operations, and leadership around one shared promise.In this EpisodeWhat “strategic entanglement” means — and why brand and growth are inseparable (00:05:20)The CMO as connector: integrating marketing into business strategy (00:10:45)Why understanding culture is essential to effective storytelling (00:18:00)Turning employees into brand evangelists and advocates (00:29:20)Marketing as a P&L generator, not a cost center (00:37:15)How global experience shapes local impact (00:44:10)GuestShayne De La Force is a global marketing and brand leader known for applying systems thinking to growth. Through his work with international manufacturing and technology brands, he helps organizations translate complex innovation into human stories and measurable performance.ResourcesStrategic Entanglement by Shayne De La ForceConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and guest host Jill Davis sit down with Eddie Staley, Chief Innovation Officer, and Kristen Herndon, Director of Client Experience at WithersRavenel, an employee-owned engineering and consulting firm built around the idea that when employees think and act like owners, clients feel the difference.Eddie and Kristen share how WithersRavenel connects culture, innovation, and client experience to deliver measurable impact. They unpack how employee ownership drives accountability, how client feedback loops shape continuous improvement, and how empathy turns data into loyalty.From turning “detractors” into “promoters” to measuring satisfaction through Net Promoter Scores (NPS), this episode explores how intentional listening and internal collaboration create consistency, trust, and growth — one experience at a time.In this Episode• How employee ownership translates into client care (00:03:10)• Building systems that make client feedback actionable (00:07:45)• Using NPS and sentiment data to strengthen relationships (00:14:20)• The role of empathy and curiosity in turning feedback into loyalty (00:19:55)• Connecting internal culture with external client experience (00:25:40)• Creating scalable, repeatable CX processes in professional services (00:31:15)• The future of client experience in employee-owned firms (00:37:30)GuestsEddie Staley is Chief Innovation Officer at WithersRavenel, where he leads efforts to align data, technology, and culture in service of a stronger client experience.Kristen Herndon is Director of Client Experience at WithersRavenel, guiding firm-wide initiatives to collect and act on client feedback, strengthen relationships, and translate insights into continuous improvement.Together, they help connect the dots between ownership mindset, innovation, and client satisfaction.ResourcesThe Customer Experience Playbook The Intangible Brand episode featuring Tim Asimos (Client Savvy) WithersRavenel — withersravenel.comConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Darrell Grant, Chief Experience Officer at Hightower Wealth Advisors, a firm redefining what client experience looks like in the wealth management space.Darrell shares how intentional service design — what he calls a “butler mindset” — transforms everyday client interactions into moments of trust and care. He breaks down how small cues, like a prepared meeting room or a thoughtful follow-up, can signal excellence long before results are measured.From his philosophy of “unbelievable” service to his belief that CX is a team sport, Darrell offers a practical look at how to build systems that make care consistent — not random. It’s a conversation about translating empathy into process and building trust by design.In this EpisodeThe “butler mindset” and how it shapes every client touchpoint (00:02:15)Bringing a brand promise of “unbelievable” service to life (00:06:45)Why great CX depends on shared systems, not heroic gestures (00:12:30)The 30-day follow-up that shows up when support fades (00:18:10)How internal culture enables consistent, human client experiences (00:24:00)The importance of aligning employee onboarding with client experience (00:30:25)GuestDarrell Grant is Chief Experience Officer at Hightower Wealth Advisors, where he leads efforts to design and deliver a client experience rooted in trust, consistency, and care. Drawing inspiration from Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara, Darrell helps his team turn small, thoughtful details into powerful signals of the firm’s brand promise.ResourcesUnreasonable Hospitality by Will GuidaraHightower Wealth AdvisorsConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Steven Gallo, Vice President, Client Services at Reputation Ink, a B2B marketing and PR agency for professional services firms.Steve shares how PR can be more than an external visibility tool — it can also be a powerful driver of internal culture and employee engagement. Drawing on his work with architecture, engineering, and construction firms, Steve explains how to connect internal wins to external storytelling, choose the right communication channels, and align PR with HR and operations.In this EpisodeWhy PR is about more than coverage — it’s about culture, credibility, and reputation (00:03:15)How PR can become part of an employee recognition strategy (00:14:35)Turning project wins and innovation stories into morale-boosting recognition (00:31:35)Why authentic employee voices resonate more than leadership soundbites (00:34:30)Creating a feedback loop with HR and operations to ground stories in reality (00:34:55)Guest Steven Gallo is Vice President, Client Services at Reputation Ink, a B2B marketing and PR agency that works with professional services firms. He helps clients align media strategy with both external reputation and internal culture, ensuring communications strengthen the brand from the inside out.ResourcesSpill The Ink PodcastReputation Ink websiteConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Eric Anest, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications at Salas O’Brien, a rapidly growing engineering and consulting firm.Eric shares his perspective on the connection between employee experience and client experience — and why brand work must start inside the organization. Drawing on his experience leading multiple mergers, a major rebrand, and the ongoing work of unifying thousands of people under one values-driven identity, Eric explains how marketing can be more than a service function. It can be a driver of business outcomes.This conversation highlights how culture, communication, and leadership align to create growth that’s both sustainable and meaningful — for employees and for clients alike.In this EpisodeWhy internal communication is the foundation of brand alignment (00:01:46)How employee engagement directly shapes client experience (00:04:21)What it takes to unify thousands of employees during mergers and growth (00:09:12)Why marketing must integrate into overall business strategy (00:16:45)The role of employee ownership in driving culture and outcomes (00:22:10)Guest Eric Anest is the Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications at Salas O’Brien. He has been instrumental in leading brand strategy for one of North America’s fastest-growing engineering and consulting firms, overseeing mergers, a major rebrand, and the integration of thousands of employees into a unified, values-driven culture.ResourcesManaging Transitions by William Bridges bookAt The Table with Patrick Lencioni podcastConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeIn this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry welcomes Dave Minifie, a seasoned leader known for bringing clarity to the relationship between purpose, leadership, and organizational culture.Dave shares his perspective on why understanding the “why” (whether in personal life, family, or within an organization) is essential to achieving long-term success. He explores how leaders can create environments that empower people to reach their full potential, while also helping organizations unlock possibilities beyond what they thought possible.This conversation highlights how the personal and professional are inseparably linked, and why purpose and culture are more than just buzzwords. They’re the foundation for lasting impact.In this EpisodeWhy purpose is the foundation of effective leadership (00:09:56)How to cultivate a culture where people thrive and organizations grow (00:03:43)The importance of connecting personal values with professional leadership (00:09:56)How environment and trust can unlock untapped potential (00:04:28)Why purpose-driven organizations outperform others (00:22:38)GuestDave Minifie is the Principal of MinifiesTake, LLC, a strategic consultancy focused on helping organizations articulate their purpose, mission, and beliefs to cultivate an intentional culture and drive sustainable growthResourcesIt’s Not What You Sell, It’s What You Stand For by Roy Spence Jr. [book]Start With Why by Simon Sinek [book] Grow by Jim Stengel [book]Pivot with Kara Swisher [podcast]Connect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTube.What happens when a brand refresh becomes a catalyst for cultural alignment, recruiting strength, and leadership clarity?In this episode of The Intangible Brand, hosts Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead speak with Lindsay Wilson, President and Interior Sector Leader at Corgan, and Elizabeth Pierce, Chief Marketing Officer at Corgan. Together, they share how one of the nation’s largest architecture and design firms transformed its brand from a visual update into a powerful tool for internal cohesion and market positioning.You’ll hear how Corgan moved from an external brand refresh to a unified employer brand—one grounded in employee input and connected to recruiting, retention, and everyday decision-making. Lindsay and Elizabeth offer candid insights on balancing authenticity with aspiration, aligning leadership around shared goals, and turning brand language into a practical framework for both big initiatives and small operational wins.In this EpisodeThe tipping points that led to Corgan’s brand evolution (06:47)Why starting with the external brand smoothed the internal process (40:05)How to unify a global firm under one brand identity (09:49)Turning values into actionable, observable behaviors (23:15)Using employer brand as a recruiting and retention advantage (24:49)Patience, leadership buy-in, and authenticity in brand adoption (32:55)Applying internal brand principles to everyday challenges (29:19)GuestsLindsay Wilson is President and Interior Sector Leader at Corgan, where she leads with a focus on people, brand, and strategic growth.Elizabeth Pierce is Chief Marketing Officer at Corgan, overseeing core marketing, brand and experience, and communications teams to align internal culture with external brand perception.ResourcesThe Square Podcast by Corgan [podcast]Unreasonable Hospitality [book]Connect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeAre you measuring client experience (CX) in a way that actually reflects reality, or just relying on outdated metrics?In this episode, Tim Asimos, Head of Growth at Client Savvy, A ClearlyRated Company, explores what professional service firms get wrong about CX and how to build a client-centric culture that actually drives growth.In this EpisodeHow CX is gaining traction across AEC, especially through culture and leadership. (01:00)The difference between CX as a tactic vs. a firm-wide cultural mindset. (05:30)Why top-down buy-in is critical for sustainable CX success. (08:30)Shifting from technical delivery to differentiated client experience. (12:00)Creating internal alignment and empathy to improve client delivery. (16:30)Innovation as a leadership mindset and the barriers that hold firms back. (21:00)Embedding CX through dedicated roles, pilot programs, and empowered teams. (26:00)Connecting brand, employee experience, and client experience through culture. (30:30)Why journey-based client feedback outperforms single-point surveys. (35:00)How to get started: small steps for launching a CX practice. (40:00GuestTim Asimos leads growth and marketing at Client Savvy. Client Savvy has helped more than 700 AEC firms design, deliver, and measure exceptional client experiences. Their CX software transforms client feedback into actionable insights that elevate client experiences, and drive revenue growth, client retention, and overall firm performance. Resources Client Savvy, A ClearlyRated CompanyWorkLife with Adam Grant [podcast]Connect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeHow do you lead a total brand transformation without losing what makes your firm… your firm?In this episode, Jeffrey Taub, FSMPS, CPSM, and SVP of Corporate Marketing at AKRF, shares the inside story of rebranding a legacy company. From internal alignment to messaging strategy, Jeff walks us through the belief systems and processes that enabled a values-driven rebrand.In this EpisodeLeading a full rebrand of AKRF to unify messaging and identity. (01:00)Using internal research and discovery to drive authenticity. (05:30)Building buy-in through senior leadership and a focused brand committee. (10:15)Launching a brand that employees rallied around — and still champion. (13:30)Centering the brand on “originality” and what that means day to day. (17:00)Applying originality to client work and internal innovation (e.g. AI adoption). (21:00)Aligning the rebrand with AKRF’s long-term strategic planning. (26:00)Advice for firms: prioritize alignment over consensus in branding work. (30:00)The role of physical space (like AKRF’s “Pin Drop” room) in expressing brand. (33:30)Final takeaway (39:00)GuestJeffrey Taub is a seasoned marketing strategist with deep expertise in AEC branding. He is known for leading brand transformation initiatives that unite legacy values with modern positioning.Resources AKRFCharacter Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter [book]Connect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeWhat’s the difference between a logo and a brand? In this episode, The Intangible Brand co-host Jerry Gennaria, President of TOKY, unpacks nearly 30 years of helping firms uncover and articulate their true brand identity.In this EpisodeJerry’s path from aspiring artist and self-taught designer to brand strategist. (01:00)How brand evolved from visual identity to holistic experience. (05:00)Why “brand is people” across industries and firm types. (09:00)The experience gap: why branding is often misjudged internally. (12:00)What brands like Disney teach us about expectation and friction. (15:00)Why defining your “why” is harder (and more personal) than it seems. (19:30)The value of outside perspective when uncovering brand truth. (22:00)Why this podcast exists as both platform and learning tool. (25:00)What Jerry believes most firms still miss: true differentiation. (28:30)Aligning values, behaviors, and experience to build lasting brand. (31:00)GuestJerry Gennaria is President of TOKY, a brand consultancy for professional service firms. His work focuses on aligning internal culture with external brand perception to create trust and clarity.Resources TOKYConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]

Watch this episode on YouTubeWelcome to the premiere episode of The Intangible Brand—a podcast exploring how internal culture and employee experience shape the brands people trust, remember, and return to.We’re starting with co-host Carl Winstead, Partner and Chief Experience Officer at Cline Design Associates. With a background in architecture and a passion for experience design, Carl has dedicated his career to shaping not just spaces, but how people experience professional service firms from the inside out.In this EpisodeLaunching the podcast and introducing Carl Winstead, CXO at Cline. (00:00)Carl’s early inspiration: how architecture created emotional impact. (02:00)Career shift from running a firm to leading experience strategy. (05:30)Creating the CXO role in a traditionally design-focused industry. (09:00)Why experience is central to both client and employee success. (12:15)Rethinking “corporate” culture in creative workplaces. (15:20)The brand is the experience, not just the portfolio. (19:00)Happy teams create happy clients, and vice versa. (22:30)The podcast as a tool for community and shared learning. (24:00)Carl’s core belief: grow people to grow impact. (27:00)GuestCarl Winstead is Partner and Chief Experience Officer at Cline Design Associates. His work bridges physical space, leadership, and brand—helping firms design experiences that align with values and drive long-term growth.Resources  ClineConnect With UsFollow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl WinsteadLearn More about TOKY & ClineGet In Touch: [email protected]