THE REAL LAWYER

Send a textIn the heartfelt conclusion to our three-part conversation, Caren Khoo, Vice President and Deputy General Counsel at Verizon, opens up about the foundational supports behind her success, including her family, her network, and her faith. Caren reflects on the importance of freedom, humility, and asking for help, sharing valuable lessons learned from a career filled with unexpected twists and personal growth.We explore what it means to build a meaningful professional life while staying grounded, supported, and open to change. This episode is full of wisdom for young lawyers, working parents, and anyone navigating career and life transitions. As we wrap Season 1 of The Real Lawyer Podcast, we’re deeply grateful to Caren and all of our guests for sharing their real stories.

Send a textIn this episode, Verizon VP & Deputy General Counsel Caren Khoo shares her 17-year journey from patent litigator to corporate legal leader. She reveals how transitioning from BigLaw to in-house counsel transformed her career - from the surprising similarities in litigation work to the liberating shift away from billable hours. Caren discusses her evolution through multiple Verizon divisions, now leading a 40-person legal team supporting business operations, product development, and AI governance. With refreshing honesty, she reflects on how managing vaccine production lines at 22 unexpectedly prepared her for legal leadership, and why she's found her true passion in building high-performing legal teams.

Send a textIn this episode, Caren Khoo, VP & Deputy General Counsel at Verizon, discusses her path from industrial engineering to corporate legal leadership. She shares insights about transitioning from IP litigation at firms like WilmerHale to her current in-house role overseeing AI governance and leading a 40-person legal team. Caren reflects on how diverse professional experiences, including early management roles, shaped her approach to legal strategy and team leadership.

Send a textEpisode Summary - Part 3: A Day in the Life of a Law School DeanIn this final episode, Dean Josh Fershee pulls back the curtain on his daily life leading Creighton University School of Law. He shares his disciplined morning routine (a 14-year running habit), his open-door policy for students, and how he balances administrative duties with teaching environmental law. Josh discusses innovative initiatives like expanding clinical programs and his pragmatic approach to AI in legal education—using it as a teaching tool while emphasizing verification. He offers sage advice for aspiring lawyers: focus on learning over grades, avoid "golden handcuffs," and stay open to unexpected career paths. The conversation closes with Josh's heartfelt reflections on finding fulfillment beyond financial success.Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations with legal leaders on The Real Lawyer Podcast!

Send a textEpisode Summary - Part 2: Building a Supportive Legal Education EnvironmentIn this episode, the conversation continues with Josh Fershee, Dean of Creighton Law School, who reflects on his journey from West Virginia to Omaha. He shares his experiences balancing family life with a demanding academic career, including the challenges of moving during his children's school years. He discusses his leadership approach at Creighton, emphasizing the importance of creating a supportive environment for students and faculty, such as offering daycare solutions during snow days. Josh also opens up about the unexpected challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic and the societal impact of George Floyd’s murder, and how he navigated these issues by staying true to his values. His story highlights the importance of authenticity, leadership, and fostering a community where everyone can thrive.Stay tuned for Part 3, where Josh discusses the future of legal education and his vision for law schools in a post-pandemic world.

Send a textEpisode Summary - Part 1: From College Town to Law SchoolIn this episode, Josh Fershee, Dean and Professor of Law at Creighton University, takes us on a journey through his unique path to law. Growing up in East Lansing, Michigan, with a father who worked in government law, Josh’s early exposure to the legal world was unconventional. He shares how his academic journey was filled with twists and turns, including attending three colleges before settling at Michigan State. After meeting his wife on a political campaign, their shared decision to attend law school together at Tulane University would shape both their careers. Josh discusses how their supportive partnership made law school more manageable and how balancing family and professional growth became key to their success.Stay tuned for Part 2, where Josh dives deeper into his transition from practicing law in New York and Washington, DC, to his current role in legal academia.

Send a textIn this final episode, Lucy Fato shares her leadership journey at Seaport Entertainment, navigating the complexities of real estate, hospitality, and live events. She reflects on how lessons from past challenges continue to shape her approach to decision-making and team leadership.Lucy offers candid insights on servant leadership, the importance of mentorship, and why clarity is kindness. Her perspective on resilience and growth is both inspiring and practical for anyone aspiring to lead with purpose.Tune in for a conversation filled with wisdom and warmth, and discover how Lucy is making an impact while looking toward the future of legal and corporate leadership.

Send a textIn this episode, Lucy Fato opens up about her bold move from Big Law to the corporate world. She shares why she finally said yes to Marsh McLennan after turning down a previous offer and how trust in leadership played a key role.From navigating crises at S&P Global to balancing legal, HR, and communications at AIG during the pandemic, Lucy’s story is one of resilience, problem-solving, and staying true to her values. She also offers insights into what it means to lead with integrity and how legal leaders are stepping up to tackle today’s biggest challenges.Join us for this inspiring conversation, and stay tuned for Part 3 as Lucy dives into her current role at Seaport Entertainment.

Send a textIn this episode, Lucy Fato, a renowned corporate lawyer, shares her inspiring journey from her first-generation Italian-American upbringing in Pittsburgh to becoming a leader in corporate law. Lucy reflects on her early career experiences, including working as a phlebotomist and in retail finance, and how witnessing racial injustice ignited her passion for law. She discusses her time at the University of Pittsburgh Law School, her transition to corporate law at Davis Polk, and the invaluable lessons she learned while navigating the fast-paced world of capital markets. Lucy’s story highlights the power of mentorship, resilience, and finding purpose in unexpected places.Stay tuned for Part 2, where Lucy delves into her move from law firm partner to in-house leadership.

Send a textIn this episode of The Real Lawyer Podcast, host Joyce Sophia continues her conversation with Wayne Outten, Chair and Founding Partner of Outten and Golden, a labor and employment law firm. Wayne shares his journey of building a successful law firm focused on advocating for employees and reflects on the personal challenges he's faced along the way. From making difficult decisions about his career path to navigating the stresses of representing clients in legal battles, Wayne offers valuable insights on leadership, risk-taking, and staying grounded. Plus, he talks about the role his family has played in both his personal and professional life. Tune in for a warm, candid conversation on what it takes to build a thriving law firm while staying true to your roots.

Send a textIn this episode of The Real Lawyer Podcast. Wayne shares the incredible journey of building one of the leading labor and employment law firms in the country, starting with just two lawyers and a big vision. He dives into the challenges of starting a firm, the risks involved in class action cases, and the principles that guided his success—including hiring talented, passionate, and kind people. Wayne also offers heartfelt advice for lawyers dreaming of starting their own practice: focus on doing meaningful work, take risks wisely, and build a supportive, values-driven culture. This episode is packed with practical tips and inspiration for anyone in the legal field.

Send a textIn this episode of The Real Lawyer Podcast, Joyce Sophia chats with Wayne Outten, a pioneer in labor and employment law and founding partner of Outten and Golden. Wayne shares his inspiring journey from small-town Maryland to leading the legal field, his role in founding the National Employment Lawyers Association, and his work with Workplace Fairness. Don’t miss this insightful conversation about his early years, law school path, and the evolution of employment law in the U.S.!

Send a textIn the final part of her interview, Daren Stanaway discusses the profound influence her mother had on her confidence, resilience, and success. She reflects on lessons in leadership and team-building, drawing on her experiences as a lawyer, mentor, and manager. Daren shares her passion for music, fitness, and creative pursuits, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a balance between personal interests and professional responsibilities. She also offers thoughtful advice for aspiring lawyers, highlighting the value of leading by example, treating others with respect, and building strong, cohesive teams.

Send a textIn this episode, Daren Stanaway shares how mentorship and drive shaped her early litigation career. She reflects on lessons in legal writing, strategic thinking at Bingham (now Morgan Lewis), and navigating long-term cases and high-pressure situations. Daren also discusses transitioning to in-house counsel during the pandemic, highlighting the importance of perseverance, collaboration, and genuine relationships in law.

Send a textIn this episode, Daren Stanaway reflects on her path from growing up in Billings, Montana, to attending Harvard for both undergrad and law school. Initially drawn to journalism, Daren’s deliberate approach to her career led her to law, where she envisioned “making news” instead of just reporting it. She shares memories of her time at Harvard Law School, from the rigor of 1L year to the camaraderie she built with classmates, and her involvement in the law school a cappella group, The Scales of Justice. Daren’s reflections reveal the discipline, determination, and adaptability that defined her early professional years and positioned her for success in litigation.

Send a textJoyce Sophia Xu recaps the Ryne Miller interview and shares her key takeaways.

Send a textIn the final episode, Ryne Miller discusses how he stays grounded amid the pressures of a legal career. He highlights the role of mentorship, staying connected to networks, and prioritizing rest. Ryne reflects on mentors who modeled a healthy work-life balance and shares his personal interests outside of law, such as family and sports. He concludes with advice for law students and young lawyers, emphasizing the importance of mentorship, trust in career progression, and making time for personal refreshment.

Send a textIn this episode, Ryne Miller discusses the evolution of his career, highlighting his work in commodities, derivatives, and cryptocurrency regulation. He reflects on his time at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), contributing to Dodd-Frank regulations post-2008 crisis, and his transition to Sullivan & Cromwell working with high-profile clients. Ryne also shares his experience as in-house counsel at FTX, where he helped build a legal framework for the growing crypto business, discussing the opportunities, challenges, and eventual fallout from the FTX experience.

Send a textIn this episode, Ryne Miller discusses his journey into law, shaped by his upbringing in Yukon, Oklahoma, and global experiences studying in England and volunteering in Thailand. These moments broadened his perspective and led him to law school at the University of Oklahoma. Ryne also shares his entrepreneurial ventures, passion for contracts law, and how law school prepared him for his legal career.

Send a textJoyce Sophia Xu shares her thoughts on her interview with Shruti Rana and invites you to join the Conversation.

Send a textIn the final episode, Shruti Rana reflects on academia’s challenges, including gender disparities, the pandemic’s impact on caregivers, and her research on Asian American lawyers. She shares insights on mentorship, public universities, and finding balance, encouraging young lawyers to embrace non-linear career paths.

Send a text In this episode, Shruti Rana shares her journey from practicing law to academia, inspired by a pro bono immigration case. She discusses her passion for teaching, connecting students’ interests to real-world legal issues, and fostering intellectual and personal growth through transformative education. 

Send a textIn this episode, Shruti Rana reflects on her multicultural upbringing, her parents' civil rights experiences, and her journey through UC Berkeley, LSE, and Columbia Law. Inspired by a purpose to create change, she shares her formative work with the Journal of Gender and Law, the UN, and her passion for women’s and human rights advocacy.

Send a textJoin Joyce Sophia Xu, corporate lawyer, law firm owner and former Big Law partner, on an exploration into the world of law and the lives of real lawyers. In this heartfelt introduction, Joyce Sophia shares her vision for her first-ever podcast: a space where real lawyers share their personal and professional stories—their aspirations, challenges, and moments of joy, and where, through the telling of their stories, the human lawyer emerges from behind the job title. The podcast aims to connect lawyers and lawyers-to-be through these meaningful stories that inspire, educate, and resonate. Our listeners will hear candid conversations about our guests' transformative experiences, from navigating 1L year to building law firms, resolving high-stakes cases, and finding fulfillment in unexpected ways. With the first episode dropping on Monday, December 2, we invite our listeners to subscribe to The Real Lawyer on their favorite podcast platform and join our very vibrant and very real community.