Unboxing Social and Emotional Learning

In this final (for now) episode of Unboxing Social and Emotional Learning, we look back on the podcast project as a whole—sharing favorite moments, discussing recurrent themes, and imagining what may come next for the pod and for SEL. Listeners who have been with us since Season 1, Episode 1 may recall some of the quotes and moments we return to, and those listening for the first time may wish to go back and start from the beginning! As we explain with the episode title, the end to one thing is often the beginning to another. “SEL,” as we have expressed time and time again across our conversations, should not be seen as the be-all-end-all for learning to be social and emotional in a complicated world. Participants:Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA, Independent ScholarEmma McMain, PhD, University of ArkansasTonje Molyneux, PhD, University of British ColumbiaEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences and Resources:McMain, E. M., Chan, M. C.-H., Edwards-Schuth, B., Molyneux, T., El Sabbagh, J., Gupta, A., & Engelbrecht, A. (Online First). Podcasting as a critical methodology: Reflections from a social and emotional learning podcast project. Cultural Studies ←→ Critical Methodologies. https://doi.org/10.1177/15327086251395813Montagne, A., Rousseau, C., & Gómez-Carrillo, A. (2026). The fine line between the cure and the illness: the risks of prescriptive emotionality and sociality for youth mental health. The Lancet Regional Health–Americas, 53. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(25)00321-7/fulltextClark, C. T., Chrisman, A., & Lewis, S. G. (2021). Using picturebooks to teach with and against social and emotional learning. Language Arts, 98(5), 246-259. https://doi.org/10.58680/la202131212The Master’s Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master’s House (Audre Lorde): https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308596/the-masters-tools-will-never-dismantle-the-masters-house-by-lorde-audre/9780241339725Safir, S., Bagsik, M., Jaber, S., & Watson, C. M. (2026). Pedagogies of voice: Street data and the path to student agency. Corwin. https://pedagogiesofvoice.com/ 

In this conversation with Sharmila Miller, we learn about her experience as a drama teacher and anti-racism facilitator within education and performing arts. Sharmila shares how the process of teaching drama inherently involves engaging students with empathy, perspective taking, conflict resolution and problem solving skills. She also explains how she uses performing arts techniques for anti-racist education and facilitation. Through this fun and engaging dialogue, we are challenged to rethink formalized SEL education and reflect on the myriad ways sociality and emotionality are already embedded in the learning process.Participants:Adishi Gupta, MA, Independent ScholarEmma McMain, PhD, University of ArkansasSharmila Miller, Drama & English Teacher, Maple Ridge, British Columbia (SD 42)Facilitator: Adishi GuptaEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences and Resources:Interdisciplinary Arts Academy at School District 42, British Columbia: https://www.sd42.ca/academy/interdisciplinary-arts/Dr. Sarah Fine, “Lessons in Powerful Learning from the Fringes”: https://www.humanrestorationproject.org/podcasts/lessons-in-powerful-learning-from-the-fringes-w-dr-sarah-fineAugusto Boal and Theatre of the Oppressed: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Augusto-BoalDifferent levels of racism framework: https://www.raceforward.org/what-racial-equity-0

In this episode of Unboxing SEL, Dr. Shannon Wanless and Dr. Renee Owen share insights from their article Evolving Transformative SEL with an Ecological Perspective. They trace their unique paths into SEL and explain why moving beyond individualistic approaches is essential for tackling inequity and climate injustice. Emphasizing interconnectedness, collective action, and care for the natural world, they highlight ways educators can weave this perspective into everyday practice without adding to their workload. It’s a warm, thought-provoking conversation that invites listeners to reimagine SEL as a shared journey toward personal, community, and environmental well-being.Participants:Jinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityEmma McMain, PhD, University of ArkansasTonje Molyneux, PhD, University of British ColumbiaRenee Owen, EdD, Southern Oregon UniversityShannon Wanless, PhD, University of PIttsburghFacilitator: Tonje MolyneuxEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences and Resources:“Evolving Transformative Social and Emotional Learning with an Ecological Perspective” (Renee Owen, Meena Srinivasan, and Shannon Wanless): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2773233925000506Oregon Department of Education SEL site (dispositions): https://www.oregon.gov/ode/educator-resources/standards/sel/pages/default.aspx Transformative Educational Leadership: https://www.teleadership.org/Lisa Miller and The Spiritual Child: https://www.lisamillerphd.com/Rainbow Community School: https://rainbowcommunityschool.org/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21848063262&gbraid=0AAAAADRjSUXbLK8qKqepoA3EwtRXtbaTO&gclid=Cj0KCQjwndHEBhDVARIsAGh0g3Aa6JtWceMlTCe0UYSR0NPooEmXoLcgLziV_QnBScv9WxyyCe1DKIEaAjMfEALw_wcBSEE curriculum: https://seelearning.emory.edu/Sherri Mitchell and Sacred Instructions: https://www.sacredinstructions.life/Robin Wall Kimmerer and Indigenous Wisdom: https://www.robinwallkimmerer.com/David Sobel and The Holistic Educational Review: https://www.antioch.edu/faculty/david-sobel/ Teach for Climate Justice: A Vision for Transforming Education (Tom Roderick): https://hep.gse.harvard.edu/9781682538074/teach-for-climate-justice/Restoring the Kinship Worldview (Wahinkpe Topa/Four Arrows and Darcia Narvaez): https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/690771/restoring-the-kinship-worldview-by-wahinkpe-topa-four-arrows/Richie Davidson and the Upaya Zen Center: https://www.upaya.org/about/The Center for Holistic Education: https://centerforholisticeducation.org/

Unboxing SEL dives into conversation with Traci Gardner and Xavier Graves from the Restorative Justice Institute of Oklahoma (RJIOK) to learn about their work and vision toward promoting more just and equitable futures. Restorative justice, says Xavier, “is not the what, it’s the how we get there.” We discuss the overlaps between SEL and restorative justice, ending with the bittersweet hope that change can come if we are willing to reenvision our systems. From Traci: “I do believe human relationships can be healed and restored, given enough time and space. And I also believe we live in a society that does not make that time or space available to us. So just living in the both/and of that.” Participants:Traci Gardner, Nurturer of Restorative Futures, RJIOKXavier Graves, E.D., RJIOKJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityEmma McMain, PhD, University of ArkansasFacilitator: Jinan El SabbaghEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences and Resources:Internal Family Systems: https://ifs-institute.com/Cheryl Step, Creating Resilience: https://creatingresilience.org/index.htmlBettina Love, Punished for Dreaming: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250280381/punishedfordreaming/The Social Relational Window: https://restorativeteachingtools.com/understanding-the-social-relational-window/CAR Model (Cue-Action-Response): https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/psychology/car-modelUbuntu: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1HQKko_qRr4adrienne maree brown and Autumn Brown, “How to Survive the End of the World”: https://adriennemareebrown.net/podcast/how-to-survive-the-end-of-the-world/Dr. Sunita Sah: https://www.sunitasah.com/

In this lively episode, Michaela Brain joins us to talk about her work as an educational assistant and support worker in British Columbia, Canada. Michaela shares her experiences with SEL instruction across a variety of educational settings including group homes, early childhood centres, learning centres, and elementary schools. We also discuss how SEL programming can be adapted for students with disabilities and what other supports these students (and their support staff) may need to thrive. Participants:Michaela Brain, BA, Child and Youth Development WorkerMelvin Chan, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA, Independent ScholarEmma McMain, PhD, University of ArkansasTonje Molyneux, PhD, University of British ColumbiaFacilitator: Melvin ChanEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences and Resources:Everyday Speech: https://everydayspeech.com/Second Step SEL Program: https://www.secondstep.org/ 

Chris McNutt joins us for a transformative conversation about his work as the co-founder and executive director of Human Restoration Project, a nonprofit organization focused on truly listening to youth and reimagining school at a systems level. Chris shares what he has learned about SEL through ‘empathetic interviews’ with young people, and how schools might meaningfully engage with students’ wisdom rather than undermine it. “It’s simple,” he says, “but not easy.” Tune in for the full discussion!Participants:Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityEmma McMain, PhD, University of ArkansasChris McNutt, Human Restoration ProjectFacilitator: Emma McMainEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences and Resources:About Human Restoration Project: https://www.humanrestorationproject.org/aboutEmpathy Interview Protocols: https://www.humanrestorationproject.org/resources/empathy-interview-protocolsStreet Data: A Next-Generation Model of Equity, Pedagogy, and School Transformation (Shane Safir and Jamila Dugan): https://www.corwin.com/books/street-data-271852?srsltid=AfmBOoqgo33XnGfKekuqfIaPEDFbbBUxs0KI9KLWRXT5MiDvHIwcp9A-#main-contentEquity-Centered Trauma-Informed Education (Alex Shevrin Venet): https://www.phoenixbooks.biz/book/9780393714739Deborah Meier and the Small Schools Movement: https://naeducation.org/member/deborah-meier/Zoe Weil and the Institute for Humane Education: https://humaneeducation.org/about-ihe/meet-zoe-weil/The Labor of Lunch (Jennifer Gaddis): https://www.ucpress.edu/books/the-labor-of-lunch/paperTransforming School Food Politics Around the World (Jennifer Gaddis): https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262548113/transforming-school-food-politics-around-the-world/

After a hiatus following Season 1, we are back and more excited than ever to dive into the unboxing of social and emotional learning! We find ourselves in a social scene that is both new and not-new, when we consider the political tensions SEL is up against and our ongoing concerns about its ability to dismantle systems of oppression in locally situated ways. Join us on a trip down memory lane as we reflect on how this podcast first got started, who we were then, who we are now, and where we are going. Participants:Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA, Independent ScholarEmma McMain, PhD, University of ArkansasTonje Molyneux, PhD, University of British ColumbiaFacilitator: Emma McMainEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences and Resources:El Sabbagh, J. (2021). “Move, play, regulate”: A critical ethnography of a community-based SEL curriculum’s transformative implications at a low-income public elementary school (Publication No. 10302) [Doctoral dissertation, Oklahoma State University]. ProQuest. https://www.proquest.com/docview/2663529983?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true&sourcetype=Dissertations%20&%20ThesesHealth Promoting Schools (World Health Organization): https://www.who.int/health-topics/health-promoting-schools#tab=tab_1Hoffman, D. M. (2009). Reflecting on social emotional learning: A critical perspective on trends in the United States. Review of Educational Research, 79(2), 533-556. https://doi.org/10.3102/0034654308325184McMain, E. M., & Higheagle Strong, Z. (2020). Social emotional learning for social emotional justice: A conceptual framework for education in the midst of pandemics. Northwest Journal of Teacher Education, 15(2), 1-11. https://doi.org/10.15760/nwjte.2020.15.2.6Wellstream—The Canadian Centre for Innovation in Child & Youth Mental Health & Substance Use: https://wellstream.ca/

Let’s talk politics! As SEL becomes increasingly situated in the midst of educational “culture wars” between the political left and right, we decided to devote an entire episode to discussing how this polarization has happened and what it means. Is SEL a “Trojan Horse for Critical Race Theory,” as some conservative groups argue? Is it an innocently “apolitical” phenomenon supported by an entirely objective research base? Tune in to follow our discussion about political non-negotiables, open-mindedness, and the tricky balance of making room for both.Participants:Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA, University of British ColumbiaEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityTonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British ColumbiaFacilitators: Tonje Molyneux and Emma McMainEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences:Buck, D. (2022, August 13). Conservatives are right to be skeptical of SEL. National Review. Retrieved from https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/08/conservatives-are-right-to-be-skeptical-of-sel/Strambler, M. (2023, May 12). Open inquiry initiative: The intellectually honest case for social and emotional learning. Discourse Magazine. Retrieved from https://www.discoursemagazine.com/p/open-inquiry-initiative-the-intellectually-honest-case-for-social-and-emotional-learning

Drawing on our own experiences and associations with yoga and meditative practices, we investigate the rise of mindfulness and yoga in SEL programs. Substantial research touts the benefits of these practices across age groups, and yet we wonder what pieces get lost or left behind as these practices are imported into the Western colonial landscape of SEL. How can we in the SEL community be responsible and respectful toward practices that are situated in specific historical contexts and evolving realities, including the current political climate in India?Participants:Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA, University of British ColumbiaEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityTonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British ColumbiaFacilitators: Adishi Gupta and Emma McMainEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences:Duane, A., Casimi, A. E., Mims, L. C., Kaler-Jones, C., & Simmons, D. (2021). Beyond deep breathing: A new vision for equitable, culturally responsive, and trauma-informed mindfulness practice. Middle School Journal, 52(3), 4-14. https://doi.org/10.1080/00940771.2021.1893593Sood, S. (2023, June 22). ‘Om-washing’: Why Modi’s yoga day pose is deceptive. Aljazeera. Retrieved from https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/6/22/om-washing-modis-yoga-day-pose-of-deception

Gut bacteria, viruses, microbes, sand and soil…in this episode, we acknowledge how sociality and emotionality are always embedded within human-nonhuman entanglements. How can SEL be extended to recognize and nurture these entanglements? If SEL is to move from a humanist to a “posthumanist” stance, one that knocks humans off the top of the species hierarchy and aims to learn with rather than about other species, important questions must be asked. What happens when human-nonhuman relationships are embraced in a way that still positions nonhumans in service of humans? Must we feel a sense of sameness with other species to care and connect with them, or can we develop reciprocal relationships that leave room for difference? Participants:Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA,University of British ColumbiaEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityTonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British ColumbiaFacilitator: Melvin ChanEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences:Chan, M. C., Schonert-Reichl, K. A., & Binfet, J. (2022). Human-animal interactions and the promotion of social and emotional competencies: A scoping review. Anthrozoös, 35(5), 647-692. https://doi.org/10.1080/08927936.2022.2042080Taylor, A. (2016). Beyond stewardship: Common world pedagogies for the Anthropocene. Environmental Education Research, 23(10), 1448-1461. https://doi.org/10.1080/13504622.2017.1325452

Sequoia leads us through grounding activities to open and close our discussion about the settler-colonial underpinnings of social and emotional learning (SEL). Together, we grapple with critical questions about how and whether SEL can truly become culturally responsive, sustaining, or revitalizing. Where do issues of cultural appropriation crop up, and how can SEL push against an expectation of eternal “self-improvement” to hold space for balance, presence, and acceptance? SEL certainly needs to learn with and from Black, Brown, and Indigenous communities if it is to promote equity. However, we end with the unresolved question of whether Black, Brown, Indigenous, and other marginalized communities necessarily need the “help” of SEL.Participants: Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversitySequoia Dance-Leighton, MA, Washington State UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA,University of British ColumbiaEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityTonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British ColumbiaFacilitator: Sequoia Dance-LeightonEditor: Adam EngelbrechtReferences: Sun, J., Goforth, A. N., Nichols, L. M., Violante, A., Christopher, K., Howlett, R., & Graham, N. (2022). Building a space to dream: Supporting Indigenous children's survivance through community‐engaged social and emotional learning. Child Development, 93(3), 699–716. https://doi.org/10.1111/cdev.13786

Our last episode was all about the self, and now we turn to the social. SEL not only focuses on promoting “self” regulation and “self” awareness--it also emphasizes expressing emotion to others, recognizing emotion in others, and building relationships. As per usual, we ask a lot of questions: How are private aspects of the self measured, verbalized, and made social through SEL? Is it wrong to try to measure concepts like joy or wellbeing? Is it always important to name, discuss, and control how we are feeling, or are there other ways to relate to emotions that may not be as valued in current schooling practices? We are joined by a new group member, Sequoia Dance-Leighton, whose insights into wellness and wholeness are based more on a balancing act of “both/and” rather than a rigid “yes or no!”Participants: Sequoia Dance-Leighton, MA, Washington State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA, University of British ColumbiaEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityTonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British ColumbiaFacilitator: Emma McMainEditor: Marc KochReferences: Soutter, M. (2020). Measuring joy: A social justice issue. Phi Delta Kappan, 101(8), 25–30. https://doi.org/10.1177/0031721720923517 Vadeboncoeur, J. A., & Collie, R. J. (2013). Locating social and emotional learning in schooled environments: A Vygotskian perspective on learning as unified. Mind, Culture, and Activity, 20(3), 201–225. https://doi.org/10.1080/10749039.2012.755205Wegerif, R. (2008). Dialogic or dialectic? The significance of ontological assumptions in research on educational dialogue. British Educational Research Journal, 34(3), 347–361. https://doi.org/10.1080/01411920701532228

To know thyself is the beginning of wisdom, says Socrates. Self-awareness and self-management appear as central components of most SEL programs, and self-improvement, self-help, and self-care are buzzwords in our daily lives. We devote this episode to contemplating what exactly is the self? What kind of “self” does SEL seek to develop, and what understandings of self might be left behind? What can we learn from examining how self is understood across cultures and contexts, from more individualistic to more collectivist ways of being? We welcome a new member of our group, Adishi Gupta, whose research is all about the “selves” that are celebrated and shrouded in educational curriculum.Participants: Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityAdishi Gupta, MA, University of British ColumbiaEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityTonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British ColumbiaFacilitator: Emma McMainEditor: Marc KochReferences: Nisbett, R. E. (2004). The geography of thought: How Asians and Westerners think differently…and why. Free Press.

Neo-what? We’re back with our third episode to discuss how SEL is entangled with the for-profit world of marketization and self-surveillance in some pretty concerning ways. We make space to discuss what we actually mean when we use words like “critical,” “capitalism,” and “neoliberalism,” and we contemplate SEL’s strong emphases on individual responsibility and self-discipline. We also welcome the question of what we would like to see being done in the name of social and emotional learning (though some of us suggest departing from the SEL label entirely). What makes us feel hopeful or excited when it comes to education that nurtures humans in their wholeness?Participants: Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityFacilitator: Emma McMainEditor: Marc KochReferences: Jagers, R. J,. Rivas-Drake, D., & Williams, B. (2019). Transformative social and emotional learning (SEL): Toward SEL in service of educational equity and excellence. Educational Psychologist, 54(3), 162–184. https://doi.org/10.1080/00461520.2019.1623032 Richerme, L. K. (2022). The hidden neoliberalism of CASEL’s Social Emotional Learning framework: Concerns for equity. Bulletin of the Council for Research in Music Education, 232, 7–25. https://doi.org/10.5406/21627223.232.01

The sky is always falling! Or is it? SEL is often positioned as the response to a message of “society in crisis,” “children in crisis,” “schools in crisis,” or all of the above. In this message, SEL is usually framed as the solution, and sometimes in saviorist or surefire-cure ways. Building on Episode 1, we continue to unpack the social, political, and historical context behind SEL, considering how our deepest societal fears and desires can manifest in our educational practices. As educator-activists, we hold space for paradoxes, including the need for radical and immediate action toward social-ecological justice and the need for slow, patient, cyclical change. Participants: Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityBrandon Edwards-Schuth, PhD, University of OuluJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityTonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British ColumbiaFacilitator: Emma McMainEditor: Marc KochReferences: Boler, M. (1999). Feeling power: Emotions and education. Routledge.Stearns, C. (2019). Critiquing social and emotional learning: Psychodynamic and cultural perspectives. Lexington Books.

Welcome to the inaugural episode of our podcast series, “Unboxing SEL!” We come together as a group of friends, educators, and scholars to discuss social and emotional learning in ways that do not frequently occur in K-12 and higher education. Join us in this episode as we introduce ourselves, talk through our goals, and share initial thoughts/concerns/possibilities for an education that tends to sociality and emotionality. Why SEL? Why podcasting? Why us? Why now? Participants: Melvin Chan, BSc, MA, York UniversityBrandon Edwards-Schuth, PhD, University of OuluJinan El Sabbagh, PhD, Oklahoma State UniversityEmma McMain, PhD, Washington State UniversityTonje Molyneux, MEd, MA, University of British ColumbiaFacilitator: Emma McMainEditor: Marc KochReferences:Camangian, P., & Cariaga, S. (2021). Social and emotional learning is hegemonic miseducation: Students deserve humanization instead. Race, Ethnicity, and Education, 25(7), 1–21. https://doi.org/10.1080/13613324.2020.1798374Simmons, D. (2021, March 1). Why SEL alone isn’t enough. ASCD, 78(6). https://www.ascd.org/el/articles/why-sel-alone-isnt-enough