Joining the Dots with Thomas Drohan

In this episode of Joining the Dots, Thomas is joined by Jamie Bartlett, journalist, author and creator of the BBC podcast The Missing Cryptoqueen, for a wide-ranging conversation on emerging technology, influence and how society responds when innovation outpaces institutions.Jamie reflects on his career tracking the social impact of new technologies, from the dark web and cryptocurrencies to social media, online radicalisation and now artificial intelligence. He explains why it is rarely the technology itself that causes disruption, but what happens when large numbers of people begin using it in ways its creators never expected.The conversation explores Jamie’s latest work on how to talk to AI, including why large language models are best understood as tools shaped by language, tone and framing. He shares practical reflections on prompting, bias and why AI can reinforce our assumptions unless we actively challenge it to act as a devil’s advocate.Jamie also discusses the growing influence risks created by AI, from synthetic media and emotionally persuasive scams to large-scale disinformation. Drawing on years of research into propaganda and online movements, he explains why cherry-picked truths can be more powerful than outright lies, and why public trust is becoming harder to maintain.The episode closes with a candid update on The Missing Cryptoqueen. Jamie shares where the investigation stands today, what the FBI’s ongoing interest does and does not mean, and his current assessment of what likely happened to Ruja Ignatova. He also explains why there will be no further episodes unless there is a definitive breakthrough.

In this episode of Joining the Dots, Thomas is joined by Tony Sales, Co‑Founder of We Fight FinCrime and a former prolific fraudster, for a candid conversation about the realities of economic crime - from both sides of the line.Tony shares his journey from a childhood shaped by organised crime and years spent committing fraud, to prison, rehabilitation, and ultimately using his lived experience to help organisations understand how criminals really operate. Drawing on first‑hand insight, he explains why technology alone will never stop fraud - and why human behaviour remains the biggest vulnerability criminals exploit.The discussion explores how fraud and organised crime have evolved from physical theft to cyber‑enabled scams, the rise of social engineering, and why “getting the basics right” still beats chasing the latest security technology. Tony also examines youth vulnerability, money muling, and the way online environments can quietly pull young people into criminal activity.Looking ahead, Tony shares his views on emerging threats — including data exploitation, deepfakes, and AI‑enabled scams — and why stolen data never truly loses its value.This is a raw, thought‑provoking episode on modern fraud, human risk, and what it really takes to prevent economic crime.

In this episode of Joining the Dots, Thomas is joined by Matt Horne, Director of Intelligence and Investigations at Clue and former National Crime Agency Gold Commander, to unpack one of the most significant law enforcement operations in UK history: Operation Venetic.Matt provides a rare insider account of how UK and international law enforcement disrupted EncroChat - a supposedly impregnable encrypted communications network used by serious organised crime groups. He explains how investigators went from “going dark” to facing an overwhelming flood of anonymised data, and the challenge of turning that information into actionable intelligence while protecting life, preserving covert access, and building cases capable of standing up in court.The conversation moves beyond the headlines of the Channel 4 documentary Operation Dark Phone: Murder by Text, exploring what EncroChat revealed about the global, businesslike nature of organised crime, the accelerating role of technology, and how digital platforms can rapidly elevate criminal capability.Matt and Thomas also discuss the wider lessons for intelligence and investigations today – from data overload and evidential integrity, to the responsible use of technology and AI in identifying risk, prioritising threats, and preventing harm.

Thomas is joined by Will Lyne, former Deputy Director of the National Crime Agency’s Cyber Intelligence team, and Matt Horne, Director of Intelligence and Investigations at Clue and Chair of TechUK’s National Security Committee, for a fireside chat on today’s rapidly evolving threat landscape. They explore how cybercrime has transformed into a global criminal ecosystem – lowering barriers to entry, enabling ransomware at scale, and blurring the lines between state-backed activity and organised crime. Will and Matt unpack why this “grey zone” of threats demands new strategies, from smarter disruption operations to cross-sector collaboration and data-driven attribution. The conversation also looks ahead to the challenges and opportunities of emerging technologies like AI and quantum computing, the double-edged role of digital ecosystems, and the importance of resilience and whole-of-society responses to national security risks. It’s a candid discussion on the realities of cybercrime today – and what it will take to disrupt harm in an interconnected world. 

In this powerful episode, Thomas sits down with Anna Rowe – survivor, activist, and founder of Catch the Catfish – to uncover the disturbing reality of romance fraud. Anna shares her deeply personal journey, from being manipulated by a serial fraudster living a double life to becoming one of the UK’s leading voices on deception in online dating.Together, they explore how emotional manipulation, psychological grooming, and emerging technologies are reshaping the landscape of fraud. Anna reflects on the long-term trauma faced by victims – and the gaps in law enforcement, tech accountability, and public understanding that allow these crimes to thrive.They also discuss how AI is turbocharging deception, how tech platforms are failing to act on fake profiles, and what policy and prevention strategies are urgently needed to protect the vulnerable. With insights from both victim and advocate perspectives, this is a rare and candid conversation about trust, control, and the human cost of digital deceit.It’s a sobering look at how love can be weaponised – and how survivors are leading the fight back.

Join Thomas for a remarkable conversation with Will Lyne, former Deputy Director and Head of Cyber Intelligence at the UK’s National Crime Agency, as they unpack Operation Destabilise – a landmark investigation into one of the world’s most prolific money laundering networks.What began with tracking ransomware payments on the blockchain led Will’s team to a sprawling illicit finance ecosystem connecting UK drug gangs, Russian cybercriminals, South American cartels, and even hostile state actors – all funnelling billions through crypto exchanges under a veil of legitimacy. At its core was “Smart,” a Moscow-based exchange that facilitated global cash-for-crypto swaps, enabling sanctioned elites and criminal networks to bypass traditional financial systems.Together, they explore how the NCA coordinated dozens of complex operations across the UK and internationally, ultimately disrupting a network operating in every major Western jurisdiction. Will also reflects on why criminal justice alone isn’t enough in today’s threat landscape – and how disruption, intelligence sharing, and collaboration across borders and sectors are becoming vital to staying ahead.Tune in for a fascinating inside look at the new face of organised crime, where digital innovation meets global scale – and how law enforcement is adapting to confront it.

Join Thomas for a compelling conversation with Alex Rothwell, CEO of the NHS Counter Fraud Authority, as they delve into one of the UK’s most complex and emotive crime landscapes: fraud in the National Health Service. From insider threats and procurement scams to multi-million-pound prescription fraud and criminal infiltration of NHS supply chains, Alex shares how his decades in policing and cybercrime now help him protect one of Britain’s most cherished institutions. With the NHS handling over £192 billion a year and employing millions, the scale of the fraud risk is staggering - and so are the strategies to combat it. Together, they explore how prevention must outweigh prosecution, why many fraudsters don’t set out to offend, and how data, deterrence, and cultural change can help safeguard healthcare. Alex also reflects on the ethical tightrope of risk appetite in public services, and why the goal isn’t perfection, but resilience. Whether you work in healthcare, law enforcement, or fraud prevention, this episode offers a rare, unfiltered look at how fraud really happens inside the NHS - and what it takes to stop it. 

Mark Button – Inside West Africa’s cybercrime ‘kingdoms’Join Thomas for a revealing conversation with Professor Mark Button, Director of the Centre for Cybercrime and Economic Crime at the University of Portsmouth, as they delve into the hidden world of global fraud and the rise of sophisticated scam networks across West Africa.Drawing on years of frontline research, Mark unpacks how deep-rooted socio-economic challenges in countries like Nigeria and Ghana have given rise to sprawling cybercrime ecosystems – where young, tech-savvy individuals turn to fraud not out of greed, but as a means of survival and status. From romance scams to business email compromise, Mark reveals how these digital hustlers are trained in “hustle kingdoms” – underground schools where scamming is a craft, complete with rituals and hierarchy.Together, they explore how these networks are generating tens of billions globally, the psychological toll on victims, and how emerging technologies – including AI – are making scams harder to detect. Mark also highlights what it will take to turn the tide: international cooperation, public education, and addressing the root causes that push young people into cybercrime in the first place.Tune in for a gripping exploration of how fraud has gone global, why it’s thriving in unexpected places, and what must be done to stop it.

Join Thomas for a compelling conversation with Laura Eshelby, former Cabinet Office counter fraud leader, as she unpacks two decades on the front lines of the UK’s fight against fraud. Starting her career as a graduate trainee and auditor, Laura quickly rose through the ranks to lead complex financial investigations into high-value legal aid fraud.Together, they explore how fraud has transformed - from paper-based deception to high-tech crime fuelled by AI, deepfakes, and digital identity theft. Laura shares why fraud is no longer just a financial issue, but a systemic challenge that demands cultural change, cross-sector intelligence sharing, and smarter investment in prevention.They also discuss the barriers to effective fraud response, the promise and peril of emerging technologies, and why breaking down silos across government and industry is essential for staying ahead of increasingly sophisticated criminal networks.It’s a candid look at the evolving nature of fraud - and what it will take to fight back in a world where truth is harder than ever to verify.   

Join Thomas for a revealing conversation with Nick Sharp, Deputy Director of the National Economic Crime Centre (NECC), as they unravel the hidden web of fraud and financial crime that’s costing the UK billions every year. From romance scams and impersonation fraud to international laundering networks stretching from Southeast Asia to West Africa, Nick lifts the lid on the staggering scale and complexity of modern economic crime. With over 3.9 million fraud incidents annually, he shares how his career - from frontline civil servant to national crime strategist - has shaped his mission to dismantle criminal ecosystems. Together, they explore why victim-blaming must stop, how AI is becoming a frontline defence, and why international collaboration is crucial in a borderless digital world. Nick offers a rare inside look at the UK’s fightback against economic crime, revealing both the scale of the challenge and the growing tools at their disposal. Tune in for an eye-opening journey into the dark economy, and what it takes to stay one step ahead. 

Join Thomas as he speaks with Martin Dubbey, a former UK drug liaison officer turned international investigator, whose career spans from narcotics investigations in Customs and Excise to exposing one of the most audacious doping scandals in modern sport. Martin shares how his transition into private investigation led him to work alongside whistleblower Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov in uncovering the Russian state-sponsored doping programme during the Sochi Olympics, featured in the award-winning Netflix documentary Icarus. He details the forensic methods used to reveal tampered samples, FSB interference, and a doping scheme approved at the highest levels of government. Together, they explore how international corruption investigations unfold, the geopolitical power plays behind sports, and the looming threats posed by online betting and AI-driven fraud. Tune in for a compelling look at the murky intersection of sport, politics, and integrity. 

Join Thomas as he dives into a fascinating conversation with Sarah Lewis OBE OLY, Olympic ski racer turned Secretary General of the International Skiing Federation (FIS), where she spent over two decades leading one of sport’s most crucial but complex battles - anti-doping. From the explosive Lahti scandal in 2001 to the shocking revelations at the Salt Lake City Olympics in 2002, Sarah recounts the turbulent events that reshaped winter sports forever. Drawing from her extensive leadership experience, she explains how FIS overhauled its anti-doping framework - separating medical and enforcement roles, implementing groundbreaking blood monitoring programs, and establishing truly independent testing and appeal systems. Together, they explore the psychology behind doping, the role of technology in both enabling and preventing abuse, and the delicate balance between protecting athletes and preserving sport's integrity. Sarah also looks ahead, offering bold ideas for the future - including enhanced international cooperation, stronger education, and closer ties with law enforcement. Tune in for a gripping deep dive into the underbelly of elite sport, and the relentless pursuit of a level playing field. 

In this episode, Ian Smith, Commissioner of the Esports Integrity Commission (ESIC), explores the fast-growing world of esports and its integrity challenges. Drawing from his experience tackling match-fixing in cricket, Ian explains his move into esports, where competitive gaming has surged in popularity, with players earning significant incomes and millions of fans. Key issues include cheating through software hacks and second-screen monitoring, and match-fixing driven by large betting markets. ESIC addresses these with anti-cheat tools, betting monitoring, and sanctions, though the decentralised nature of esports complicates regulation. The episode highlights the need for stronger governance as digital worlds grow more immersive. 

In this episode, Thomas sits down with Neville Blackwood, a seasoned international law enforcement consultant and former senior police officer, to delve into the complexities of global policing.  Neville recounts his journey from joining Thames Valley Police in 1982 to leading undercover operations against organised crime in Europe, which fueled his passion for international law enforcement.  The conversation highlights the formidable challenges of working in developing nations, where issues like corruption and political instability often impede progress. Neville shares valuable insights from his experiences in conflict zones like Somalia and Iraq, emphasising the need for culturally tailored approaches. This episode also spotlights Neville’s work in the Maldives, where he was tasked with investigating politically motivated murders and disappearances.   The episode explores the critical role of technology in combating transnational crime and Neville’s vision for the future of global law enforcement by 2030. This episode offers a rare, insider perspective on the intricacies of maintaining international security in a rapidly changing world. 

Join Thomas as he delves into an enthralling conversation with Phil Suddick, the Head of Sport and Safeguarding at Clue Software, unravelling his remarkable career journey from law enforcement to becoming a torchbearer for sports integrity.  Drawing from his specialised background in covert operations, Phil unveils how his prowess in undercover intelligence work paved the way for his seamless transition into the realm of sports, notably as an investigator at the International Tennis Integrity Agency. Together, they unravel the evolving impact of technology on investigations and the persistent challenges of match-fixing, doping, and corruption within sports. Phil offers a intriguing glimpse into the future, predicting how these threats might morph by 2030. Tune in to this episode, essential listening for anyone intrigued by the fusion of law enforcement and sports integrity. 

Thomas joins Adam Pacifico, as the lawyer and leadership podcaster shares his unconventional career trajectory from barrister to police officer and back.This episode explores how technology shaped Adam’s work in law over the years and underscores the importance of meticulous detail and rationale in investigations. Discover how the passage of time influences memory and decision-making and learn about the challenges of conveying complex information to non-experts like juries.Host of the podcast The Leadership Enigma, Adam traverses the rise of human-centred leadership and the guiding force of personal purpose in navigating uncertainty.Finally, the pair delve into the potential benefits and risks of AI in criminal justice and intelligence work, the critical need for data quality and transparency, and the importance of adaptability and a learning mindset for the future.

Join Thomas as he delves into the intricate world of organised crime and technology with Matt Horne, a former detective with a distinguished 30-year career in law enforcement. As the former Deputy Director of Investigations at the National Crime Agency, Matt led Operation Venetic, a groundbreaking UK operation that dismantled an encrypted communications network used by criminals worldwide (more on this in a future episode). In this episode, Matt shares insight into how organised crime syndicates leverage technological advancements to boost their operations, from pandemic-era financial frauds to using legitimate businesses as fronts for illegal activities. Despite the surge in cybercrime, traditional methods of violence and intimidation still dominate. Tune in for a riveting discussion on the evolving landscape of organised crime, the challenges of technological progress, and the future of law enforcement in countering these sophisticated threats. 

In this compelling episode, Thomas sits down with Peter Spindler to delve into his distinguished career in law enforcement, spotlighting his pivotal role in Operation Yewtree. Spindler shares his journey from joining the police to spearheading one of the most significant investigations in UK history - the probe into sexual abuse allegations against Jimmy Savile and others. Listeners will gain a firsthand understanding of the origins and outcomes of Operation Yewtree following the wave of allegations triggered by a revealing TV programme. Spindler discusses how this landmark investigation prompted a surge in the reporting of sexual abuse cases across the UK and the intricate challenges of investigating historical abuse cases while determining prosecutable claims. He also reflects on the critical lessons learned and how they have reshaped the handling and support of sexual abuse investigations. Additionally, we explore emerging threats, including the evolving impact of technology on vulnerable populations. Join us for an eye-opening discussion that not only revisits past injustices but also looks forward to how law enforcement can better protect future generations. 

Join Thomas as he enters the complex world of financial crime with reformed fraudster Alex Wood, and Clue Software’s Director of Intelligence and Investigations, Matt Horne, a seasoned former law enforcement leader and economic crime expert. With raw honesty, Alex recounts his past transgressions, unveiling how he exploited vulnerabilities to orchestrate cyber-enabled fraud, leaving a trail of deception that engulfed businesses in losses of millions. Drawing from his time behind bars where he was free to learn sophisticated tradecraft from other convicted fraudsters, Alex divulges insider tactics such as social engineering and spoofing technology. He offers a surreal peek into his earlier crimes, including his stint impersonating the Duke of Marlborough. On the other side of the table, Matt provides a law enforcement perspective, shedding light on the proactive strategies employed to target high-harm offenders like Alex. This episode offers unique insight and contrasting perspectives for those navigating the complex landscape of financial crime and fraud prevention.  

Joining the Dots provides real-world insights from those dedicated to justice, harm reduction, and global security. Hosted by Thomas Drohan, technologist and co-founder of Clue Software, each episode delves into the challenges and triumphs of those on the frontline tackling real issues like child abuse, human trafficking, corruption, organised crime, and fraud.Thomas leverages his experience working with diverse intelligence and investigations teams to explore candid conversations with victims, perpetrators, investigators, leaders, tech experts, and academics. Joining the Dots highlights the tireless efforts and innovative strategies making our world safer. Coming in June 2024. Subscribe and tune in to hear from the often-unsung heroes committed to real change.