Let's Talk About CBT

In this episode, Helen is joined by Colin Blowers, James Jackson, and Hashir Aazh for a thoughtful conversation about tinnitus and how cognitive behavioural therapy can help. The panel draws on professional expertise and lived experience to explore what tinnitus is, why it can become distressing, and the importance of getting it checked. The conversation focuses on how CBT can support people to change their relationship with tinnitus, reduce distress, break unhelpful cycles of attention and anxiety, and live a full and meaningful life even when tinnitus is present. Key themes include acceptance, habituation, flare-ups, and why learning to manage reactions to tinnitus, rather than trying to eliminate it, can make a real difference. This episode will be helpful for anyone experiencing tinnitus, supporting someone who is, or interested in how CBT can help people live well with long-term conditions. Resources & Support: Helpful website: NHS information about tinnitus: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/tinnitus/ More information about tinnitus can be found at Tinnitus UK World Tinnitus Congress- https://wtc2027.co.uk/ Books: Living Well with Tinnitus: A self-help guide using cognitive behavioural therapy- Hashir Aazh and Brian C.J. Moore   Find more information about CBT- www.babcp.com Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at [email protected] Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow  

In this episode, Helen is joined by Jackie and Professor Roz Shafran to explore loneliness through both lived experience and clinical psychology perspectives. Jackie shares her personal journey with anxiety, bereavement, and loneliness, describing how these experiences affected her mental health and led her to seek CBT support. She reflects on what helped, what was challenging, and how strategies such as goal setting and connection building continue to support her today. Roz Shafran, Emeritus Professor of Translational Psychology at UCL, offers a clear and compassionate overview of how loneliness is understood in research and clinical practice. The conversation explores the difference between loneliness and social isolation, how loneliness can affect people at different stages of life, and what effective interventions can look like. The discussion covers stigma around loneliness, access to support and why loneliness deserves to be taken seriously. Jackie and Roz also share practical advice for anyone who recognises themselves in the discussion and is considering reaching out for help. Resources & Support: If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org We have more information on how you can find help and support on our Mental health support services page here: https://babcp.com/what-is-cbt/mental-health-support-services-information/https://babcp.com/what-is-cbt/mental-health-support-services-information/ The loneliness umbrella study mentioned by Roz is: Solmi, M., Veronese, N., Galvano, D., Favaro, A., Ostinelli, E.G., Noventa, V., Favaretto, E., Tudor, F., Finessi, M., Shin, J.I., Smith, L., Koyanagi, A., Cester, A., Bolzetta, F., Cotroneo, A., Maggi, S., Demurtas, J., De Leo, D. and Trabucchi, M. (2020). Factors Associated With Loneliness: An Umbrella Review Of Observational Studies. Journal of Affective Disorders, [online] 271, pp.131–138. doi:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jad.2020.03.075. Find more information about CBT- www.babcp.com Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at [email protected] Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow

In this episode, Helen Macdonald talks with CBT therapist Sally Tribe about the impact of menopause and how Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can help. Sally shares her own experience of perimenopause, describes the wide range of symptoms people can experience, and explains how CBT can support those affected. The discussion covers the biological, psychological, and social aspects of menopause, the importance of awareness in workplaces and healthcare, and what reasonable adjustments and compassionate understanding can look like. They also talk about the latest guidance from NICE, how to access CBT through the NHS or private routes, and why no two menopause experiences are the same. Useful Information The British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies (BABCP) is the lead organization for CBT in the UK. Find a NHS Talking Therapies service here Read the article by Sally on the menopause here Get in Touch If you have any questions or suggestions for future episodes, please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected]. You can also follow us on Instagram and BlueSky at @BABCPPodcasts. Remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to our sister podcasts: Let's Talk About CBT - Practice Matters and Let's Talk About CBT - Research Matters. Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This podcast was edited by Steph Curnow

It's World Mental Health Day 2025, and this year's theme is 'access to services - mental health in catastrophes and emergencies'. The theme highlights the importance of people being able to protect their mental health in times of global instability. In this special episode of Lets' Talk about CBT, Helen Macdonald speaks with Kerry Young, a consultant clinical psychologist specialising in PTSD, particularly among asylum seekers and refugees. They discuss the impact of trauma on mental health, the challenges faced by asylum seekers in accessing mental health services, and the importance of community support. The conversation also touches on the role of interpreters in therapy, barriers to accessing services, and positive developments in mental health support for asylum seekers. Useful Information The British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies (BABCP) is the lead organization for CBT in the UK. For those interested in supporting or learning more, Kerry suggests looking up: Freedom from Torture, the Helen Bamber Foundation, Breaking Barriers, Host Nation and The Refugee Council More information from the European Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Therapies can be found here Find translated health information from Doctors of the World here and translated mental health information from the Royal College of Psychiatrists here Links to services by region: Find a NHS Talking Therapies service here Wales: https://sanctuary.gov.wales/refugeesandasylumseekers/healthandwellbeing#  https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/our-work/programmes/refugee-programmes/refugee-and-asylum-seekers-wales Scotland: https://scottishrefugeecouncil.org.uk/health/#Mentalhealthsupport Northern Ireland: https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/our-work/research/journey-wellbeing-refugees-transport-and-mental-health-northern-ireland Ireland: https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/primarycare/socialinclusion/intercultural-health/mental-health-supports/ Get in Touch If you have any questions or suggestions for future episodes, please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected]. You can also follow us on Instagram and BlueSky at @BABCPPodcasts. Remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to our sister podcasts: Let's Talk About CBT - Practice Matters and Let's Talk About CBT - Research Matters. Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF

Ever heard of low Intensity CBT and wondered what it was all about? Or what it would be like to receive it? In this episode of Let's Talk about CBT, Helen talks to Laura Stevenson-Young, a cognitive behavioural therapist and Director of Low Intensity CBT Clinical Training at Newcastle University and Emily who shares her lived experience of low intensity cognitive behavioural therapy. Together, they explore what low intensity CBT is, what it's like to receive it, and how it can empower people to take control of their mental health. Emily talks candidly about the challenges that led her to seek help, including grief, anxiety, fertility concerns and low self-esteem. She describes the impact of low intensity CBT on her life, and the practical tools she still uses today. Laura explains how this type of therapy works, who it's for, and why it can be so effective. Resources & Support Find an NHS Talking Therapies service: https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/mental-health-services/find-nhs-talking-therapies-for-anxiety-and-depression/ More about CBT and BABCP: https://www.babcp.com Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at [email protected] Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't.  I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. Hello and welcome. Today, I've got Emily and Laura with me and we're going to be talking about low intensity CBT, what that is and what it's like to be on the receiving end. But first, I'm going to ask you both to introduce yourselves. Emily? Emily: Hi, yeah, thank you for having me. I'm Emily, I live in Yorkshire with my fiancé. And in November 2022, I reached out to my local mental health service for a number of reasons, which I'm sure we'll cover in this podcast. I began with a four-week introduction to CBT program, which was in a group setting online. That was in December. And then by January, I began my CBT therapy and yeah, it was one of the best things I've done. Helen: Thanks, Emily. And Laura. Laura: Hi, Helen. Thanks for having us and Emily. So, I'm Laura Stevenson-Young. I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist and Director of Low Intensity CBT Clinical Training at Newcastle University. So this means that I train practitioners to deliver low intensity CBT interventions for many different types of mental health problems, namely depression and low mood, generalized anxiety disorder, panic, OCD and some other problems that can really affect the quality of people's lives such as stress or sleep difficulties and long-term health conditions. So I trained as a low intensity CBT therapist, mostly known as a Psychological Wellbeing Practitioner or PWP for short, well over a decade ago. And I then went on to further CBT training and became a clinical trainer in low intensity CBT. So this is probably really going to come out today, but I'm a real advocate for low intensity CBT, the practitioners who deliver it. I'm so passionate about the work that they do and how they empower people to manage their own mental health within NHS Talking Therapies. Helen: Thanks Laura. So Emily, you said there were a number of things that led to you reaching out to the local mental health services. And I wonder if you're willing to tell us a bit more about what was going on? Emily: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, kind of looking back, I should have done it a lot earlier than I did. It was kind of a lot of things building up over probably a couple of years. My mood definitely was low after losing my granddad and then with different job roles, kind of things to do with that, it was an ongoing thing. And then in 2022, that's when I'd gained a lot of weight, I was losing a lot of confidence, and I was letting a lot of stress at work get on top of me, which then had an impact on my relationship. And then obviously we were just coming out of lockdown as well. So I think that had a massive impact on my mental health. It was definitely, there was a lot of low mood and also anxiety around all I wanted to do was see friends and family, but the thought of doing that was actually making me incredibly anxious and busy places were making me anxious, new surroundings were causing kind of panic attacks. We'd gone on a trip and we were getting on a plane kind of in 2022 and I had a full panic attack getting on the plane. And there was nothing within my brain that was pinpointing what exactly it was. But I think...overriding the kind of that sadness and that anxiety there was a lot, it was around, I looked in my notes when I knew that we were doing this podcast and on the 12th of January I'd written in my notes as I was about to start my CBT I'm scared because I might not have control over what the future will bring and that might in my head was asserting so health wise I'd had some news regarding I was diagnosed with PCOS and an underactive thyroid, which both have a big impact on fertility and kind of me and my partner were trying to conceive and every single month it was like you were failing at being a woman really because it wasn't happening for us. That's still an ongoing thing now, that's not kind of changed but my mindset has changed off the back of...having CBT and I kind of went into counselling after that as well. And my mindset then has started now. I'm learning to deal with different things in a more logical way instead of going with them thoughts and thinking that that's it kind of thing, if that makes sense. Helen: Thanks, Emily. And it sounds like there was a combination of all sorts of really difficult things going on. I mean, you've talked about your physical health, you've talked about what was going through your mind, you were talking about the way that you were feeling. There's an awful lot that was going on for you there. And thank you for sharing that with us. And I'm just sort of really curious to hear about what it was actually like having that low intensity CBT? I'm going to come back to Laura and ask her to explain a bit more about what that really means. But from your experience of being on the receiving end, what was it like? Emily: Yeah, I think it's so, you're thinking ahead and a lot of my thoughts was always, I kept thinking, I shouldn't be doing this, I'm taking that away from someone else who needs this more than me. I could go and talk to my friends and family about this, of how I was really feeling or my partner, even. And there's only so much I think that you're comfortable to open up and tell your friends and family and speak about and but actually talking through everything and kind of making them thoughts in my head a lot more logical and combating them unhelpful thinking styles that I was doing, what just helped me so much and kind of rationalizing everything in my brain. And I think with my CBT therapist, she spoke a lot about negative automatic thoughts with me. It's every time there was something that was happening my immediate thought was the complete, the most negative response to it. So combatting that was a big thing for me and speaking about that. Helen: Thanks, Emily. And I mean, if I can just come to Laura now, Emily's just spoken really clearly about lots of stuff to do with thinking, negative automatic thoughts, thinking logically and so on. Can you say a bit more about that from the perspective of somebody who delivered those kind of interventions? Why is that helpful? What's that about? Laura: Hmm, it's a good question I guess. So in Emily's case the therapist was working with her on how she was thinking about herself and her difficulties and there lots of ways to work with thinking and negative thoughts in CBT. So you can work on the content of thinking, what our thoughts actually are and what they're saying or the process of thinking which is how we engage with the process of those thoughts. And I guess the most common way a low intensity therapist will engage with negative thoughts, particularly in low mood presentations and people with confidence issues is content, usually through means of reality testing or a CBT therapist might call it cognitive restructuring. Because for many of us, and we'll all resonate with this, is that we can make assumptions of what others think about us, we can have untrue and negative appraisals about ourselves and our situation. So, for example, others think badly of me or I'm terrible at my job or like Emily said, I'm failing as woman and things will never get better. And our mind can really convince us of these things that aren't true. And even sometimes if there is some truth to our negative thoughts and maybe things aren't going so well, still having all or nothing thinking or having a hundred percent conviction in these negative thoughts is really unhelpful. So it's more helpful to balance our negative thoughts with evidence sort of against their truth, if you like. And this is really important because in any CBT format, whether low or high CBT, we're trying to help the person feel emotionally better through cognitive and behavioral change. If we could tell ourselves to stop feeling sad or anxious, well, I guess we would simply do it and I probably wouldn't have a job. But because that's not possible, we have to relieve our distress and emotions through how we're thinking and what we're doing that are worsening those problems. So cognitive therapy and working with thoughts can really help people pay attention to alternative facts and information that challenges their negative automatic thinking. And this is so important because when we feel bad, these emotions are like magnets. They start to attract information that fits them. So other things that aren't going so seemingly well tend to feel worse. But when we feel better, these things tend to have less power or less weight. So imagine if I asked you to go for a walk and come back and tell me how many blue cars you saw, you'd probably come back and give me a definitive number, so around about 10. But if I were to then ask you how many red cars you saw, you probably wouldn't be able to answer. And it's not because red cars weren't there, as there would have very likely been at least one. It's just that you weren't looking for them. And this is what sadness and anxiety can do to us. It gets us to pay attention to and dwell on information that fits them. And what Emily's therapist helped to do was pay attention to information and facts that didn't actually readily fit those feelings and might have said something else about Emily or her life that can very well start to lift distressing feelings by providing alternative ways of thinking. Helen: Thank you so much, Laura. For me as a CBT therapist, that's a beautiful explanation, particularly of the cognitive bit of what we do in CBT. And I'm really curious to hear from your point of view, what's the difference between low intensity and other forms of CBT? What is it that makes it low intensity as compared to other ways of delivering or contexts for CBT. Laura: Yeah, well, I guess the first thing I'd say is that low intensity CBT is a type of cognitive behavioural therapy. And I think actually the name in itself undersells it. It can often mislead a patient accessing this care to feel as though they're receiving something less. And actually, that's not the case at all. All low intensity means is that the practitioner is working with someone for a briefer period of time but still does all the things that other psychotherapies aim to do. For example, the formation of a meaningful relationship between the therapist and client, helping the client understand what their problem is and how it's been maintained and pave the way to alleviate and change that distress. It's how it's done in low intensity CBT that's slightly different to other therapies. So the real sort of emphasis in low intensity CBT is that, it is, as I said, brief. So usually around six to eight weeks of 30 minute sessions with a trained practitioner. And it's been found to be clinically effective for the problems that I mentioned there. So there's an evidence base that this type of therapy can support a person suffering from depression, anxiety disorders and various other difficulties and we can be reasonably confident that those people will respond to or benefit at least somehow from this type of intervention. It's different in that it's more suitable for those who have less severe symptomatic presentations and those that are maybe less chronic. So what I mean by that is the problem has perhaps a recent onset or hasn't been there for such a long time or for those where the impact on the person's function is not severe. And this is really because low intensity CBT involves educating clients on how to use CBT interventions and encouraging them to maximize the use of these interventions between the sessions. So, it requires the person really to have a reasonable sort of capability and opportunity and motivation to do those things. But it's really important that I say that this does not mean that those with more severe and chronic presentations won't benefit from low intensity CBT is we actually know that as the demand for mental health care increases, more and more people who do have a severe set of symptoms are undergoing low intensity CBT and they are responding well, even if they do need to go on to a more intensive therapy at the end of that brief term of low intensity interventions. And I think why Emily's case is quite notable is that she did go on to have further intervention. She had lots of different things going on and severe presentation of those. But what's memorable for her are the things from low intensity CBT actually. So the way in which she engages with her thinking for example is those takeaways for her. So the key difference really is it's its briefer and the emphasis is more helping people understand what their problems are and educate them how to use CBT interventions. So it's less sort of intense. And I think one of the key things about it is that it's incredibly empowering for individuals who have it. Because if they respond well, it conveys to the person that they can take control of their own mental health and that they can actually really help themselves, which is an important protective factor for future mental health difficulties because it facilitates this positive self narrative which I think you really get from low intensity CBT that you don't in other places. Helen: Thanks Laura. And I realized that our listeners can't see you, but I can see Emily nodding. And I just wonder if I can come back to you, Emily, and ask you, when Laura's talking about that, what's coming up for you? What do you think of what she just said? Emily: Yeah, I mean, kind of think back to a few minutes ago, I said I should have done it a lot earlier, but in my brain space, I was not ready for it. And I think that is a huge thing with anyone. I mean, I'm such an advocate for low intensity CBT now, and I will tell people if they're struggling with things, like I would always say to them,, give it a go. Like, there's no reason not to give it a go, but it is so important that you have to want to do it and you have to want to make that change and you have to put the work in. So my sessions were brilliant, but I had to go away and do a thought record and think about it out of them sessions. And it was that I was thinking about it constantly really, and arguing with myself in a way in my brain. So when I was having those negative thought automatic thoughts, it was being aware of that and changing the narrative in my own brain, which you have to be able to do yourself. Helen: And I guess, hearing what you're saying there, there's quite a commitment. People who've had CBT out there will have heard of having to do your homework or between session work, things like that. I'm just wondering for you at the time, Emily, what was most challenging? I mean, were there aspects of it that were particularly difficult? Emily: I think what I found most challenging was actually recognising those thoughts because I was so used to, at the time, having these negative thoughts and to me that was normal. So it was having to just use another part of me to look at it from an outside perspective and challenge my own thoughts and that is what I found the most difficult. Helen: Right, I've got you. And I'm thinking about what you've said to us today. It sounds like there's quite a lot of what you did learn that you're still putting into practice now. So in terms of what you came away with, I mean, Laura's just described, it's quite a brief approach. And although you've said you went on to do other things, are there techniques, strategies? Things you tell yourself that you use particularly from that that is still relevant now? Emily: Yeah, I mean, you know, with that comprehensive restructuring, it's challenging them thoughts and I'm not like, I wouldn't sit here and say that it is a hundred percent kind of all you need to do is these sessions and you're fixed because I think Laurie will agree that's not the case. But a lot of it is them distraction techniques. I got back into reading again, which really helps me mentally at the end of day sitting down with a book and not a lot of things that are used as distraction techniques and I am still bad for it, I'll hold my hands up, is scrolling on my phone. And I think when we're in this generation particularly, it's, your phone is attached to your hand for work, for socialising, for social media and you're getting a lot of information and all that information can be quite overwhelming, especially if you're kind of Googling the things that are in your, in your brain and, and then next thing you're flicking onto Instagram and you're seeing these influencers living these perfect lives. Then with me, another thing, it was like going on social media and I'm at that age where, you know, everyone's getting married, everyone's having babies. And at one point, and I hate saying it, but seeing people with baby announcements on social media, that would really affect me. And I hate saying it because on one hand I was so happy for them because I know how difficult it can be for some people. But then on the other thing, it was something that would really affect me. So I think one kind of distraction technique is to put the phone away, put the technology away and spend time face to face with people or with a book. I think that really does help me. Helen: Thanks, Emily. And I think you've really drawn out there that you've done all that work on your thinking, but it really involves taking action as well, isn't it? You do things differently, like even something like putting the phone away. And as you just said about it being attached to your hand, that sounds simple, but it isn't always easy. And Laura, hearing Emily talk about the things that were most challenging and the things that she still uses from those low intensity interventions. Is that similar to your experience of other people who've had low intensity CBT? Laura: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I always say that the hardest thing about any format of cognitive behaviour therapy is that you're sort of fighting your own mind with your own mind, aren't you? Which is quite a paradox, sorry. But I think what's important in particularly cognitive behaviour therapy, as you mentioned there Helen, is that behavioural aspect. Any therapy helps somebody focus on the things that are in their control. And I really appreciate Emily's honesty there and the things that would bother her and how she would then focus on the things that she could control to manage how she was feeling. I mean, when we do engage in the things that are within our remit to change and influence, it can bring good feelings, if you like, online. For example, we might feel a sense of achievement, enjoyment or connection to others when driven to engage in the things that we can actually control. And this encourages future behaviors or activity that influences the way we feel, and we call this positive reinforcement. So when we learn that something good or a good feeling follows a behaviour, we tend to keep doing that. And the more that we feel in control and motivated to engage in what we can control, the things that we don't have control over tend to lose their power and sort of fade into the background a little bit. They seem less important. And this can be so helpful for someone because as Emily says, it's not that these things aren't going to rear their head from time to time. It's not leading to someone into a false sense of hope that all of their problems are going to magically disappear or be fixed but that you do have the ability to experience happy times and good things in your life, and we need to focus on them and move towards them to gain the benefit of those things. And even in cognitive restructuring and in reality testing it's not about completely flipping narratives and thinking you know really positively about adversity or things that we're unhappy with in our lives and might want to change. It's more thinking in a more balanced way about those things that might neutralize how bad and intense feelings of sadness and anxiety can be. And when we do lift those feelings a little bit, people function better. They're motivated to engage more in the things that might be important to them or that might distract them. And this is all really helpful. Helen: Thanks Laura. And I've noticed that you've really made the point there that this isn't just unrealistic positive thinking for the sake of it. You really brought out that there are potentially more balanced ways of thinking about things. It's not trying to convince ourselves that difficult things aren't difficult, but perhaps the way that we respond to them and how they make us feel doesn't have to be that way. Laura: Yeah, definitely. And I think that's really important to facilitate in low intensity CBT as well. It's all about living better and improving the quality of your life by engaging in what you can control, thinking in more balanced ways, rather than dwelling on those things that you can't. And sometimes, you know, a negative thought can convince us that, you know, they're true to such an extent, you know, like failure, we actually start to behave as if those thoughts are true and they increase our conviction in them and low intensity CBT really helps somebody become educated on what their problem is and how it's being maintained in those cognitive behavioral terms. So we call this sort of socialization to cognitive behaviour therapy where somebody learns that actually and really sees how their thinking and what they're doing is maintaining how bad they're feeling. And the emphasis on low intensity CBT is really intervening in those vicious cycles by essentially showing someone or teaching someone how to use these interventions on themselves and encouraging them to do those things outside of the session. So they become almost like a skill that somebody might use all the time, which luckily, is how Emily has responded to her low intensity CBT, which I think is fantastic and a great example of how this works at its best. Helen: And you're reminding me of one of my friends, colleagues and mentors from years ago who used to talk about giving it away in the sense of people that we work with. If you end up being essentially your own therapist, you have your own toolkit, you've got a lot of those skills and techniques for yourself to use. And it's not that people wouldn't ever need more help or to go back for some more of the same or something different, but there's something about the way that this type of therapy works. Laura: Definitely Helen, it's empowering isn't it? When you feel that you do have the skill set to manage your own difficulties, your problems and adversities, it can create such a positive sense of self, how you move forward in your life with these problems and not get stuck in them. And I really like that analogy of becoming your own therapist, if you like. And I think that is one of the staples of low intensity CBT is its a real sort of teaching of these skills to clients so that they can use them. yeah, resonate with that very much. Helen: Emily, I was going to ask you, if we are, you know, sort of being listened to by a range of people out there, if there's somebody who's got similar kinds of experiences to what was happening for you when you reached out, is there anything that you would want to say to someone who's maybe thinking they might benefit or might be thinking, I'm just not going to go there? Emily: I think the most powerful thing that I can say is just always have an open mind to it because you might think that it's not for you, you might think you won't respond to it, you might think that you don't want to talk about your issues and talking is the most amazing thing to do and if you are comfortable to speak to your friends and family about these things, even opening up in that sense is amazing but actually having CBT, I would recommend to anyone even if you're not displaying kind of anxiety and depression to the extent that I was, it has changed my life really. Helen: It's really great to hear you say that, Emily, and just a really great recommendation that so many people could benefit from taking that step and reaching out, seeking help. And I'm wondering, Laura, what you would say to somebody who may recognise some of the things that Emily's talked about, or some of the things that you've mentioned in terms of the broader range of things that low-intensity CBT can help with. What would you say to somebody who's contemplating it. Laura: I would first of all say that engaging in these types of strategies can be in the end extremely rewarding and as I mentioned really influence your sense of self, your ability to manage your mental health in a much more positive way. As I said before, I think, you know, the name undersells itself, but the aim of it is to empower you to be able to manage your difficulties. It's feeling in control of your problems and the things that are happening to you can maximise your independence and overall the way that you think about yourself. So as Emily said, I really encourage you to give it a try. Sometimes you might feel as though things are so bad that nothing can change them. You might think that simply thinking or doing differently isn't going to change anything. But I really encourage you to take the risk and try anyway. If you imagine if you went to the GP with a seriously bad headache that you've had for a week and the GP tells you to take paracetamol, you think, well, there's no way something as simple as that's going to work. So you don't try it. And this means that you'll continue to suffer and likely never find out if it would have helped. And if low intensity CBT doesn't get you where you need to be, there are other things that are available in NHS mental health services that can support you past brief CBT if you need it. So, I really encourage you to give it a try. If you live in England and are over 18 and you're struggling with low mood, anxiety disorders such as lots of worry, excessive worry, obsessive compulsive disorder, feelings of panic, struggling to sleep, feeling overwhelmed with stress, then there is help available to you. This type of therapy can help. If you were to just even go on to Google and type in, find my local NHS Talking Therapy service and follow those links, it will take you to service that you can self-refer yourself to for an assessment. And I really don't want to go on but if I might touch on something that Emily said before actually because I think if you are feeling like Emily that your problems maybe aren't as bad as others and that people are worse off, I encourage you to think that that's not actually what's important here. Those people need help but so do you. The most important thing is you. All of our problems are relative to our unique and individual set of circumstances. And if those set of circumstances are causing you to feel distress, depressed or anxious for a prolonged period of time and you cannot manage it yourself, then you need help. Just as anybody else would regardless of how better or worse off they are than you. So if you're concerned about your mental health, please go to your nearest mental health service. Your therapist is never going to be concerned with who is worse off. They're only ever going to be concerned about you and how they can help you fight the things that are keeping you stuck on your problems and the quality of your life. So please remember that you're just as important as anybody else and go forward for help if you need it. If it's okay I may just also make a nod to some self-help things that are available online even if you were to type in NHS self-help for mental health problems actually one of our regional mental health trusts up here in the North comes up CNTW and they have lots of free self-help books online that you can work through and give this a go yourself perhaps if you wanted to before getting the help of a therapist. Helen: Thanks Laura. And we'll put links to those in our show notes, along with some other links that people can find, perhaps if they're not in England. A lot of our listeners are in England and in the other UK countries and in Ireland. And we've got listeners further afield as well, which is great. But we'll put some links in our show notes that just give some pointers to where people can find both self-help materials and links to local mental health services. I'm aware that low intensity CBT is not necessarily available everywhere and where it is available, it can be called all sorts of things as well. You said you were a psychological wellbeing practitioner, which is a commonly used word in England. It might actually mean something else in other countries as well. But we'll put some links in our show notes so that people can find more information if they'd like it. Okay, so, I mean, it just sounds like from what Laura's saying and from Emily's experiences, it's been largely really positive, even though we're talking about some really difficult stuff. Emily had got a number of different things that were happening together and Laura, you've expressed it really well about it doesn't have to be comparing yourself with somebody else who might be worse or better than you at having sort of a difficulty. What we're trying to do with offering relatively brief interventions is actually making it more available to more people. And I'm just wondering if there's anything else that either of you would like to say that our listeners might be interested to hear, whether that's about the therapy itself or any other information that you think is useful for people to know. Laura: I think the last thing I would say on it, and I think Emily touched on this point earlier in the podcast, is that you do have to be in a place to try and move towards your distress and have a commitment to trying to change what's keeping those things going. Have some idea of how you want to be helped and what you want to achieve from therapy can be really useful in creating direction for your therapy when you start it. Even if you know that you're suffering from a mental health problem and you're not quite sure what to do about it, then that is also what a therapist is there for to guide you through it. That's not all the be all and end all, but with particularly low intensity therapy, having something that can create some direction of where you want to be in your life and what you might do to get there I think can be useful but that's not the be all and end all of it. Emily: I think just off the back of what Laura's just said as well, like when I reached out to my local mental health service, I didn't know what I wanted from it. I didn't know that my thought processes would be reconstructing. I didn't know all these terms that I'm saying now. All I knew was that I'd got to a place where I had to do something about it and my situation in the sense of, you know, health wise, things are better. But I couldn't sit here and say everything got fixed. I got everything I wanted out of life right now. And all them feelings that I had just went away magically. It's not a magic wand. It's just about managing them feelings better and taking positive steps. It was like a brain fog was lifted off me in sense of being able to take them positive steps to help my situation. So I think it's just worth noting, it's not a magic wand and reiterating that fact that you do have to want to help yourself. And yeah, as Laura said, just give it a go. Laura: And don't be fooled by the name. Low intensity therapy is hard work. You do engage in strategies that you have to use on yourself to alleviate that fog that Emily's describing there. And that is hard work outside of the sessions that you'll consolidate your learning with your therapist when you return. And, you know, I think Emily can, it's testament that when you put that work in, you can live better, you might not get all of your problems solved. I think if any therapy can do that, tell me what it is and I'll go for it. It's just about living better. Please try it if you think that you need it because it can make even a small difference to the quality of your life. Helen: Thank you. So I'm just going to ask if you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners before we finish. Laura: No, just if you're struggling with anxiety and depression, get help. Emily: I think what Laura's just said sums it up perfectly. Helen: Fantastic. So I'd just like to say thank you again, both of you. I really value you spending time with me and I'm very grateful that you've been speaking about all these things with us today. Thank you. Emily: Thank you, Helen. Thank you for having us. Laura: Thank Helen. Thanks. Helen: Thank you. Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected], that's [email protected]. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. 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In this episode, Helen Macdonald speaks with Chris Frederick- advocate, suicide survivor, founder of Project Soul Stride, and self-described "Mental Health Jedi." Chris shares his deeply personal journey, from childhood trauma and racial adversity to becoming a mental health advocate and what helped his recovery- and the things that didn't. Resources & Support: If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org Brent Recovery College- https://www.cnwl.nhs.uk/services/recovery-and-wellbeing-college The Listening Place- https://listeningplace.org.uk/ James' Place- https://www.jamesplace.org.uk/ Find more information about CBT- www.babcp.com Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at [email protected] Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't.  I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. Today I'm speaking with Chris Frederick. I'm absolutely delighted to have him here with me in the studio. He's going to share about his personal history and some difficult experiences that he had in his earlier life. How he ended up looking for help with his mental health and some of the things that helped as well as some of the things that were less helpful and how he's then started using his lived experience to help inform professionals, services and members of the general public about what helps and what helps people to access the kind of support that they need. He's also going to tell us how he ended up being known as the mental health Jedi. Chris, would you just like to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about who you are? Chris: So my full name is Chris Frederick. Born and bred in London, currently living in northwest London. I guess I like to introduce myself. Firstly, is I'm a suicide attempt survivor. I think it's important to get that out there. I'm an advocate and founder of Project Soul Stride, which we'll touch on a little bit later. And, also I'm a mad Star Wars fan. Helen: Oh, fantastic. And you've just mentioned a couple of things, really important things about your background and who you are. Is there anything else that you'd be happy to tell people listening today about your background and challenges or barriers that you've experienced? Chris: I mean I guess if I backtrack to the story that, that brought me to that point, very quickly in the barriers, because they might be things that listeners would identify with. I'm a twin, I'm 55. Growing up for us in the early seventies was a tough time. We lived as a small family of four in a flat in a council estate in Wembley and due to the pressures that my father and my mother who were very young, they were only 19 and 18, and they'd not long been in the UK from the Caribbean. So they themselves were carrying their own baggage, their own trauma, their own legacy and that transferred, I guess, onto us as young children. My father was a very strict, sort of military type figure. A beautiful looking man- if you put a picture of Muhammad Ali at his prime and my father at his prime, they could almost be twins, brothers, because that's how you know, he was tall, statuesque, beautiful green eyes, but on the downside, he had a heavy hand. And you know what I mean by that Helen, he had a heavy hand. He was quite, he was an intimidating character. And that manifested itself in negative behaviour in the house, physical abuse of various descriptions. And we grew up watching and witnessing and being victim of that as we grew up, and this is all within a black community. And then we moved at the age of 11, we upped sticks and moved to Chislehurst, which was a suburb of Kent. So imagine now we've moved from an all sort of majority ethnic community to now an ethnic minority community where we were the only black family on the street. Elms Street Avenue number 60, remember it well. Went to Kenmore Manor, and I remember for the first three years we were two of only five non-white pupils in the entire school. So without going into too much detail, you could also now begin to identify with the certain trends, the recurring themes, the racism of course, the pressures from my family. My parents eventually split up and divorced. My relationship with my twin eventually split. And so we ended up the complete, the family was completely fractured and still is today. And you bundle all that up. I started to experience mental ill health probably at the age of 19. And I'll tell you what it was, it was alopecia. Because I used to have, I used to have, if you could see me now, I've bald hair. and I started to feel there were bald patches appearing in the back of the scalp. So I went to the doctors and you said, oh, you've got alopecia. we could inject you with steroids, give you some cream. I said, well, what's the underlying reasons? And he goes, oh, it's stress. you. What can we do? What can I do to overcome that? And again, that was in the late eighties so talking about counselling and therapy again wasn't really part of the dialogue back then. Right. And then at the alopecia came back 10 years later. So I was beginning to realise I had some problems. And then I took off to Asia, lived there for 20 years, had an amazing time, an amazing experience. Again, suffered racism, but of a completely different type in China, Beijing, Singapore, Hong Kong as a black man, very few in number, but I didn't let that deter me. I had a very good career. I had a lot of experience and beautiful people, travelling a lot. But it all came to a head. It all came to head, and it's something that I called the ripple effect because it almost as if there was an author I spoke to last year, he when he heard my story, he said, I'm sorry to say this, Chris, but it almost sounds as if it was inevitable that you would reach breaking point and attempt to take your life, based on everything that you told me and that ripple that had gone through, the desperation for wanting to find love, family, belonging, identity, all the things that have become so precious to me now manifested itself when I lost my last job in Singapore in 2018, and I tried to commit suicide later that year. And then that was the time for me to leave Asia. After nearly 20 years, I realised that I needed to close the book on that era of my life. And I moved to Los Angeles and then a few months later moved to London, and then I attempted suicide again a couple of years later during Covid. So, you know, I've looked into the precipice, I've looked into the darkness, and twice I wanted to disappear from the world. Helen: And Chris, I'm really grateful to you for sharing so openly about what's happened to you and just such, such a combination of difficult life events and the circumstances that you were living in. And I mean, I will say that the show notes will have links to help and more information for people who may experience similar things or be concerned about risks and safety. But I'm really grateful for you to sharing so openly and you've said that all of these things really have brought you to where you are now. Tell me a bit about how you went from what sounds like a real, you said looking into the abyss, to accessing something that made a difference to you, or how you got the right kind of support, the right kind of help. Chris: So I mean, if I tell you, Helen, that when I got admitted into Ealing Hospital after my second attempt, at that moment in time, it was like, oh, finally I'm about to get some help. Finally, I'm about to be recognised as an individual who needs support from the NHS. And then through that whole process of being in the hospital, the psychiatric team at the hospital were very good, they were very helpful. The clinical psychologist came to see me. She spoke to my mum separately and said, okay, we need to help your son. And when I got discharged, I got put into the hands of the community mental health team, the Brent Community mental health team, and they were smashing. They'd come around two, three times a week. They'd make sure I was taking my medication. And then I started to ask them, okay, where do we go from here because I've got you guys for about a month. I'm really concerned what happens then. I just don't want to keep falling back into these bad habits. So they started to say, okay, firstly we're going to start to give you some information, some literature and then we're going to start to talk to you about what was then, Helen, IAPT, now Talking Therapies. I said to them, look, I don't know if I'm ready to go into therapy quite yet. I'd like something just to, just as a teaser, just to start giving me a little bit of confidence, a little bit of awareness of even how to talk or be around people who might have experienced this stuff. So they said, we've got the solution for you, the Brent Recovery College, the CNWL Brent Recovery College. I said, oh, that sounds interesting what do they do? Oh, they've got a curriculum of courses, and you go online, and they've been facilitated by lived experience, peer support trainers. You are going to be in classrooms of about 12 people, they've all got experience of mental illness. They're all there like you. They want to see other people on the screen. They want to connect with people whilst learning new skills. And I said, I've been a lifelong learner this sounds just a ticket for me to get things going. And when I spoke to the admissions clerk, she said something that really, we talk about that light bulb moment. She said to me, Chris, the mantra at the Recovery College is we turn recovery into discovery. And when, and I used that today because it was like, this journey I'm about to embark on isn't just about me getting well. This is about me learning about myself and about the world around me and how it impacts me. And I said, I'm really going to invest a lot of time in this model and, ironically, ImROC which is the organisation that does all of the training for all of these recovery colleges, I'm now a trustee on the board of directors of ImROC and I tell my story, why did I want to join this charity? It was because of my experience with the Brent Recovery College. Helen: Right. Okay. So I can really hear that, that was something of a turning point going into the Recovery College. So can you tell us a bit about what you learned at the college? What courses did you do? Chris: Oh yeah. Listen, I think I did about 12 courses from sleep, sleeping well, diet, writing about mental health, mental Health First Aid. There were all sorts of really interesting courses, each semester they come out with about 20 different courses and they're always being adapted and some of them might be just one or two hours. There might have been others that are spread over four weeks, and you've got to put two hours in a week, and they give you a certificate. I mean, there were many more, and most of them were really good. One or two maybe was not so good. But I think the main thing was it was the people. I was feeling that sense of connection and that sense of belonging. It wasn't just about me anymore. It was about being with other people, and I think that was, for me, that was the main purpose of it. Helen: And I'm really hearing you about how important it was that sense of belonging and that sense of connectedness with other people as well as learning specific, I mean, it sounds like a combination of knowledge and skills that you were learning at the Recovery College. Chris: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Helen: So tell me, out of all of those things, what was the best thing that you learned at the Recovery College? Chris: Logical thinking about problems, problem solving. Being honest, even if you feel uncomfortable in a type of environment where you are talking about this stuff, which can be tricky with strangers. It's being honest, it's being articulate. And, if I look at my mind map now, some of the models that I learned from the Recovery College in terms of being able to segment information and data so that it makes sense with always thinking about the story arc. Where are you when you start? What's your, where are you at the midpoint and where do you want to end up? And when I went into the Recovery College program, I had, I already started to think about where I wanted to be at the end. And so I was building myself every time. I was building myself another pavement, another step in the journey and the journey now is very clear. It's crystal clear what I'm here to achieve and a lot of that was built from my time, with the CNWL. Helen: So from that, given that some of our some of our listeners may be involved in services, or as therapists. Is there anything that you would like to see therapists and services doing more of? I mean, on the other hand, less of maybe, but is there anything that you would really want to see? Chris: Yeah, I mean I, my first experience with CBT came after I started with the Recovery College cause that was, I was signed, actually, I was signposted to IAPT in Brent. My GP failed to do the referral, which I won't get into now cause it was a complete debacle. So I actually ended up doing my own self-referral and then I just had to wait and wait. So my early experiences of CBT were not great because I had response times are really slow, understandably, this was through covid and then waiting lists were very long. And then when I kept asking each time during the assessment what type of therapist can I get access to? Oh, can I speak to a black therapist? And the answer was no, we don't have any, or if you insist Mr. Frederick, you'll have to wait for an even longer period of time. So I was so used to hearing the word no, Helen. And then when I started to do research into therapeutic, sort of models and I challenged them. I said, look, I know what CBT is. I said, but for someone like me, I even wrote it down today. I was like, someone like me, what about something like EMDR, my friend's using in LA and says, Chris, it's perfect for you. What about ACT or solution focused therapy? And every time I kept saying to them, right. What are the chances? Can I get that instead- like a shopping menu. No. Mr. Frederick, no. We don't do that, you'll just, we'll have to funnel you down the CBT pathway and that's all you are going to be allowed. Six sessions with a therapist that we give you, and its only CBT. So now imagine somebody who has been through suicide attempts, is still a risk as terms of assessment, and now I'm now the power shifts from me to this system that is just ignoring my needs. And then you have to just sit there and accept what they give you. You can, it's quite frustrating when you think about it like that, isn't it? Helen: It really sounds that, and I mean I know that, nowadays you speak openly about being a suicide survivor, and you're saying about in that situation, having to wait a long-time and not being given the kind of choices that are supposed to perhaps be available to people. And I'm just thinking about that experience, that personal experience shapes your advocacy work now. And I'm just wondering about what you would say about reaching people who are under served. And I know that this is an audio podcast. You're speaking to a white woman from a British background here, and you asked, could I see a black therapist? And you were just told no. I'm just thinking how that all shapes what you do now and how you promote providing access to people from a variety of minoritised groups. Chris: No absolutely, it's a great question. I mean, I'm not saying that because I've been through about 52 hours of therapy so far. Okay. I'm not saying, and that's across five therapists, only one of them was black, which I'll tell you how I found her in a second. So I'm not saying that the therapists, I'm not saying that they were not good, not at all. I'd say two of them were very good and we actually made quite a lot of progress. But I think the fact is that I kept repeating the CBT model every time with these therapists. It was like moving the needle, it was only fractions rather than inches. And I wanted to make some real progress. And the time came where, and in fact, before I tell you about that. it was while I was waiting, I needed to find something that I call buffer services so I'll quickly plug, The Listening Place, which were brilliant because when I called them in Kings Cross and I said, I'm experiencing suicidal thoughts. I've had two attempts. I'm on the IAPT waiting list for about six to eight weeks. Is there anything you can help me with in the short term, cause I'm really anxious. And they said, brilliant, you are just a type of client that we take on, come in to see us. We are going to give you eight, eight individual sessions with a volunteer listener. And you come in and you just talk about this stuff. And they specialised in speaking or hearing from people with suicidal thoughts. And I thought, brilliant. Now. The fact is though, Helen, I had to use Google to find The Listening Place, and it was only because I knew what keywords to search. So now I think about it, what would your average person on the street who doesn't know about this stuff, they're just going to sit and wait six to eight weeks and not realise that there are other services out there that can help them in the short term or in those gap moments. And I think that's one area that I do like to talk about in my work, which is we need to be more creative, we need to be more inventive, and we need to promote all services and let, and each of us, we can create our own menu because it should be bespoke for every single person. That's what I maintain. Yeah. Does that make sense? Helen: Yeah, it's really helpful to hear you say that, Chris, because I know that a lot of the intention is to make sure that we are offering evidence-based therapies that are appropriately adapted to individuals and that we especially in some areas compared to others we've got a long way to go to really make that happen for everybody who might benefit from those services. And again, we'll put links on our show notes for some of those things that you discovered because you knew how to look for them and it could well be useful for our listeners to have that information out there. Chris: And I'd also say, not that I've used them directly, I've visited them, but James' Place who are expanding really well, they've got a beautiful site in London and similarly to The Listening Place, they're not just listeners, they actually, again, deal with a lot of men with suicidal thoughts and their service is superb from what I can see online. But let's talk about the turning point here, because this is where, it's the story arc you'll start to see where the transformation really started to take place. I was on LinkedIn, so you'll get, you're getting a sense now, Helen, that I'm a big user of technology that's helped me. But it does make you think though, because if you are an individual who's not confident on technology, you are already at a massive disadvantage. Right? Which is in itself is something needs to be addressed. But anyway, so I'm on LinkedIn and it was January last year and I happened to see this post from Black Minds Matter UK, which is a charity that I follow. And it had this poster, and it was saying we are now offering 10 free sessions for clients to see a black therapist. And it, and at that time I'd been about five, six months out of therapy and knew I was going to need some in the new year. And when I saw this, Helen, can you imagine the level of optimism and excitement? I jumped out of my bed, jumped onto my computer, quickly did the self-referral, and from the moment I logged into that website and did and filled in that form, right, it took seven days to get the response on email, acknowledging receipt of my form. It took just another seven days to get the assessment call done and then only another seven days before I was in session one of 10 with this black therapist. So it was totally seamless, and it was rapid response. Helen: Yeah and it really sounds like that was going to meet a need, which just wasn't really being met. Chris: Exactly, exactly. So the difference is it wasn't six sessions, it was 10. So that was one thing. Secondly, it was with a black therapist, and so we didn't have to go through the initial cultural familiarity aspect, she was happy to share some of her life story. We talked about parents from the Caribbean, we talked about food, we talked about music, and so we were beginning to build a relationship, a rapport, and that for me was fundamental because when I go into these types of therapeutic relationships, we talked about the power differential, the therapist and the client. And it was only until we got through to session eight, I made a note of this because I think it is quite important. I said to her, how is it that you are able to get so much out of me? How is it that we're making so much more progress than I've ever made before? And I was curious, I asked her, I said, what kind of me methodology, what kind of framework you're using? I think I understand roughly what this stuff is but just tell me. She said I'm an integrative counselling psychotherapist. I said, well that sounds interesting. What does all that mean? She goes, well, I use a combination of CBT, person centred, psychodynamic. And I was like, this sounds really cool cause nobody's ever told me about this before. I think I've only ever done the CBT, but the fact that we're using person centred and psychodynamic I think that's why we were really clicking. And I've circled that because I thought that was worth sharing with you today, Helen. I think this is very important. Helen: Thank you. And again, it's the whole journey that you've been telling me about, the stages of what happened to you that meant that you did actually need to seek help. And then the whole journey of trying to obtain the right help and then really meeting somebody who's truly collaborated with you and really got it, really been able to, I don't know, it empowered you in that situation, which can be disempowering, especially if you're feeling vulnerable. And so really meeting somebody very skilled and the importance of that shared background as well. So I mean, along this journey, you've also been very much focused on helping other people as well. And I know that you've told me before when we've spoken before that you've met people across the country and abroad as well. And this is Project Soul Stride that you've spoken about. So tell me about that project and things that you've learned or, what would you like to share about that? Chris: Yeah. Soul Stride was born August 15th. I mean, I woke up one day. Listen, I hadn't washed for a week. I hadn't brushed my teeth for a week. I was smoking like a chimney. I was in a bad place. I was in danger of going back into some real bad depression and I woke up one morning and I said I've got to do something. So I sat down with a blank sheet of paper and I had my Chat GPT AI open, and I said, look, I started scribbling stuff down randomly, started circling stuff, and I was looking for a project for about three months that would force me to get my ass out of bed at least three times a week for about three hours a day. Number two. Connect me with people on the screen so that I could actually feel like I wasn't the only person in the world. Number three would force me to write and draw and highlight because I'm a very visual person and that's how I get my heart rate going. And so I put all of this stuff into Chat GPT, and it already knew about my mental health background. And I said, what do you think I should do? And it said, okay, why don't you do this lived experience project where you speak to 30 people and you tell them your story arc, and then you get their feedback, and then you ask them point blank questions like, what do you think about the state of the industry? Where do you think the opportunities are? Where are the gaps? What are doing to improve things for black people, blah, blah, blah. And because I came from recruitment into sales and business development, using my network to connect with people was a piece of cake for me. And so 30 people grew, it doubled and it tripled. And by the time I finished my Excel spreadsheet, I'd gotten to speak to about 185 people in 15 months from public health directors, academic professors, CEOs of major mental health charities, think tanks, talking therapy leadership up in NHS England. I mean, I mapped the entire sector, including grassroot, black owned organisations in London. And I think I'd written notes, maybe a hundred, 150 pages of notes. Helen: Oh wow. Chris: like, so half of that stuff I still haven't read back. I still don't even, so I'm sitting on a wealth of information and knowledge, but what it's told me, number one is that there is a gap. Number two, there is a distinct lack of strong black voices in this field, particularly men. Number three, if done well, this advocacy work can open so many doors into influential spaces, not just into terms of PPIE research projects, but also advisory board positions where you really are where the decision makers are taking are making critical decisions. Helen: And I really hear you about that's an incredible number of people that you managed to contact and the influence that, that you have available to make a real difference to people's experience. And I know that you've been part of a recent evaluation, review of the organisation that I'm here as part of the BABCP, the organisation for CBT in the UK and Ireland. And one of the things that, that we've been doing as an organisation is reflecting on how we hear the voices of people who have personal experience, lived experience, expertise, however, whichever words we choose to use. Can you tell us a little bit about your reflections and what you would advocate in terms of involving people so that we really meaningfully include that? Chris: Yes. I mean, when I've had such a joy in partnering with the BABCP from the 2024 annual conference in Manchester, which was just, that was probably the first time Helen, where I had taken myself out of the comfort of my bedroom because I do a lot of stuff online. But actually doing it in live in a, in an auditorium, God, it was shaking. There were maybe 40 people in that auditorium. But I knew that was such an important milestone in my advocacy work that I had to tell my story. I had to be totally and utterly vulnerable and let's, the chips were fall where they may, and you'd be amazed, the response was quite staggering. People were writing stuff down, they were looking at each other quizzically as if to say, we didn't know that, we need to be hearing more about this stuff and then when we had finished, we literally got mobbed from the audience because they, they started running down from the audience to take photographs of us., I wrote this article, from Panic to Paparazzi and I started to write it on the train coming back from Manchester because I wanted to capture the emotion. And this leads back to your question, which I wrote a couple of things down here when I read that report about the BABCP, and it's not unique to organisation, but number one, more space for lived experience, particularly I feel in curriculum design and delivery, proves the point that Leila invited me to a three-four hour workshop that she delivered on cultural humility training, several weeks ago. And she had a spot in her training schedule for me to share my lived experience, and when she turned the microphone over to me, the response again was quite staggering, and so it made me again, reinforce the message. Having folks like me involved in delivery, design of training curriculums is important, and of course, leadership. Organisations such as yourselves to have voices like ours involved in decision making, leadership influence. It's not just about- and this might sound weird, but it's not just about ethnic involvement, actually. It's about lived experience involvement. If you can get the two together, brilliant. But I think lived experience for me is the most important and of course diversity, whether it's gender, race, neurodivergence, whatever that is. Helen: Yeah and Chris, I mean, reflecting on what you've just said, and thank you for sharing that. I'm really hearing your courage and I like the panic to paparazzi, and your courage in being in a situation where we are wearing a hat where we are supposed to be being the helpful ones and helping people who need support, need mental health treatment and so on. And yet here we are learning so much from you and you actually teaching us a lot of things that we need to learn. And I just wondered if an organisation like ours had what a Mental Health Jedi might call a Yoda moment. What wisdom or lesson would you hope for us to take forward in terms of listening to lived experience? Chris: The cultural humility and awareness aspect is essential, should not be taken lightly. I feel in some situations it can be given a tokenistic response. I think there must be genuine equity in the conversation, and co-production of we talk about co-production of solutions. Actually, I would like to talk about co-production of ideas right? Before we even get to solutions because quite frankly, folks like me never get to rubber stamp a service design model before it hits the market. Right? I understand that as somebody coming from private sector. But if we go back to the consulting and advisory part, I'd actually think we be involved in the earlier stages of discussion and investigation about some of these opportunities. Yeah.  Helen: And building on, what you've just said, you and I were talking about let's say certain film franchises before we started making the recording, but I would really like people listening to hear about how you became known as the Mental Health Jedi and what drives your mission. I know that one of the things that you've become very keen to do is to promote mental health access and particularly equity. Tell me how that happened. Chris: You know, Star Wars for me and it's so strange that we're having an honest conversation cause when I started talking about this two years ago, I started to think, Chris, you're coming across as a real geek here, like a real nerd. Like, people were just not going to take you seriously. And I was like, no, no, no I'm going to stick with this. So when I started talking to this author, she said to me, Chris. I've seen some of your posts on LinkedIn and you are referencing Star Wars a lot. and she says like, you've almost become the Mental Health Jedi. And I said, say that again. And she said, the Mental Health Jedi. And I was like, I wrote it down on this piece of paper and I was circling it, and I said, I'm going to use that. And even when I started to sign off on my social media posts, Mental Health Jedi And I in one night I created the new Star Wars fans group. But what's really cool is when I look through the list of people and all the countries, I think at last count there was something like 35 countries or 25 countries around the world that people have joined this group. And I take great delight in creating some amazing content because what it does me is it helps me escape my advocacy work, because talking about suicide and mental health every week, Helen, you know what that's like, it can take a real toll. So when I down tools and just put on my Star Wars hat and my Star Wars gear and put on John Williams on my Alexa device, and I start typing stories and quotes and images and reels. It just helps me use all my creative juices. It's amazing. Helen: And I, I mean it sounds amazing. It sounds really interesting. And also just that message that, in terms of looking after your own wellbeing, even though you are dealing with really difficult stuff as part of your work. You are also, you've got things that are rewarding. You've got things that are completely different that use your creativity and create connections with people. So you really are living what you are advocating in terms of looking after your own mental health. Chris: Totally. I mean, people now connect with me on LinkedIn and say, Chris, we love the fact that you are an advocate and you are linking it with Star Wars because it's such a door opener. I love the darkness and the light story of Star Wars, that balance and that represents and reflects my life and the life of many. And the quote I had, which was the Jedi don't fight emotions, they learn from them. And actually that philosophy has really helped in my healing and my advocacy style of work. And so I really live it. I live it, Helen. Helen: And that's a great quote. Thank you. And Chris, I mean, I'm really grateful for everything that you shared with us today, from your own personal journey and all the difficulties that you've faced and the things that you've done about it. What's been helpful, what hasn't, what we can do more. I mean, you've just covered so much. Is there anything else that you would really want to say that perhaps I haven't asked you about or that we haven't really covered properly. Chris: I think to wrap up and I guess this message goes out to the clients because that's who I really want to look out for. So I have four things because I was going for four and they're very quick, rapid fire. Number one is you are not alone or broken. Okay? Remember that? Most important. Number two, you are only human. We are not infallible. Number three, please consider therapy. Okay? Become comfortable with feeling uncomfortable because that's when your body reacts, in a way, it's telling you are on the right path. No matter if you are feeling sick or you get a migraine, you know you're doing something right. And lastly, and this I think is also very interesting and I got this from therapy. Being in the courtroom feeling judged is only in your own head. So take ownership. Yeah. And be brave. Be curious, and please ask the help cause nobody really knows what's wrong with you until you ask for help. My friends made so many assumptions about the state of my mental health, but when I started to open up, it was only then they were like, why didn't you tell us before we could have helped you so many years ago? I just didn't know how to ask for help, but now I do. Helen: Chris, thank you so much. I'm really grateful for you spending this time with me today. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Chris: You're very welcome. Helen: Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected], that's [email protected]. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.      

In this latest episode of Let's Talk About CBT, host Helen Macdonald is joined by two international guests- Tafi Mazikana and Sherrie Steyn who share their journey from CBT service user and therapist to CBT innovators. Tafi, originally from Zimbabwe, opens up about his experiences with anxiety while working in a high-pressured job in finance and how a digital CBT intervention through IAPT (now known as NHS Talking Therapies) changed his life. He talks candidly about the cultural stigma around mental health, what it was like to try therapy for the first time, and his realisation that CBT is about learning practical, empowering skills. We also hear from Sherrie, a clinical and community psychologist from South Africa and co-founder of the Vimbo Health app along with Tafi. She reflects on her friendship with Tafi, the surprising conversations that sparked their collaboration, and the importance of culturally adapted therapy. Together, they describe how Vimbo Health was developed to meet the unique challenges and needs of people in South Africa, particularly in terms of language, cultural metaphors, accessibility, and affordability. They explore how therapy can be made more relevant and relatable, from replacing metaphors like "three-legged stools" with potjie pots to tackling barriers like mobile data costs and mental health stigma. Whether you're a therapist or someone curious about accessing help in a different way, this conversation shines a light on how CBT can be tailored, inclusive, and transformative. Resources & Links: Learn more about Vimbo Health: https://www.vimbohealth.com/ Information on CBT and how to find a therapist If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at [email protected] Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't.  I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. I'm absolutely delighted today to have some international guests for you. And in a moment, I'm going to ask, Tafi and Sherrie to introduce themselves. We're going to be talking with them about the experience of having CBT and then some really exciting developments that have happened since. But first, let's start with some introductions. Tafi, would you like to tell people who you are? Tafi: Yes, definitely. Thank you, Helen, really a pleasure to be with you today on this podcast. So I'm Tafi Mazikana and I'm Co-founder and CEO of Vimbo Health, a metal health app that's operating mostly out of South Africa. My background as I've shared, is not as a practitioner. My background is as a patient, of CBT who became very curious, perhaps too curious. So I was living in the UK working in banking and finance, and I was just very lucky to come across the services of IAPT which allowed me to self-refer in this area of mental health. I never knew that one could actually reach out and do something, so that was game changing in itself. But I was offered to have a digital CBT intervention, which was very transformative for me but obviously just left question marks as someone born and raised in Africa to say, well, who's thinking about the African context? Because, as I'll share later, there are things and ways of thinking and speaking that are different and I was just curious about who is going to think about that. And so became more and more involved, in this area of CBT, and in particular digital CBT. Helen: Thank you so much, Tafi. There's lots that we're going to talk about there. Before we start that though, Sherrie, can I ask you to introduce yourself please? Sherrie: Hi Helen. Thank you for having me. My name is Sherrie Steyn and I am from South Africa. I'm actually very fortunate to be from the East coast, so the sunny side, and my background is in clinical and community psychology. I tend towards the behavioural types of psychology. So I've done some ABA or as we call it VBA now and of course a special interest in CBT. So having done that clinical and community psychology, I then went on to do one of the allied CBT training courses through UCL. So I was very fortunate, to have done that. And that's a little bit about my background and, yes, I'm also the co-founder and CSO of Vimbo, I like to say I'm the science, because it sounds cool and yeah, just very happy to be here and share some of our experiences with you today. Helen: Thank you so much. So if I can come back to you, Tafi, I wonder if you would be willing to just tell our listeners a little bit about what it was that made you actually reach out to access CBT. Do you mind telling us a bit about what was happening for you that meant that you were seeking some help? Tafi: Yeah, absolutely. I think what I with hindsight realise is that it was difficulties that built up gradually over time and came to a point where they sort of caught me off guard. At the time that I reached out for help, I was working in the banking sector there in London on very stressful, large projects, which brought on a lot of anxiety, but I traced back my difficulties to over 10 years ago in terms of when those little moments of a negative self-talk, which started as innocent, and then grew into something of its own life, sort of started to happen and without the right tools then entering into that professional world, I do think I was at a disadvantage. I had some great tools in terms of being quite active and taking part in sports and exercise. So that's amazing but definitely what I came to realise is that I was actually lacking other tools that could have helped me to not get into a situation where I'm feeling like I'm in a lot of difficulty. So yeah, so I always describe it as, for me, in my case, not one thing in particular, but I feel like a gradual buildup of life just happening or that negative thinking pattern becoming something of its own. Helen: And I think it's quite important to notice that, that it doesn't have to be some one particular dramatic event or something key that changes. It might be a combination of things or a buildup over time. So can I ask you a bit about when you did access the CBT, what did you actually get? What happened in CBT for you? Tafi: Yeah, so I think for me, I grew up in Zimbabwe in Africa, and there isn't a tradition of seeking help. So for us, therapy is something that we saw in movies, we know that movie characters in Hollywood have therapists and get help. Or we associated it with people who we knew in the community who are undergoing inpatient care. And those are the forms of help that we knew to be there. Things that are not related to us in terms of early intervention, it is more something that happens when you are at the stage of acute care, which is inpatient. So essentially when I reached out for help, I was a bit sceptical of what was offered because it didn't fit the moulds of what I thought help looked like. And when I chose the route of going for the self-guided digital option that I was given there. I was, again, sceptical because it was not what I thought therapy looked like.  I chose it because it was, it felt like a lower barrier because I was still quite afraid to talk about my feelings and to talk about my thoughts and experiences. But yeah, but, needless to say, I was actually shocked and quite impressed at how effective it was. And so that, that introduced me into the idea that help is something you don't have to wait until you are at that acute phase of need. But also, it taught me that CBT is about, in my opinion, I guess I'm not a practitioner, so please take it with a bit of salt, but it taught me that CBT is about building skills, which is quite a positive thing. It's actually quite empowering is what I learned then, and I think that's what resonated the most with me and got me hooked onto this form of help. Helen: Thank you. And I just wanted to emphasise that there's several things that you've said there. I mean, firstly, you're coming from perhaps a cultural context that's less familiar to some of us. I suspect a lot of our listeners will be in the UK, although there are people from elsewhere. But that experience of really not being used to talking about feelings will be very familiar to a lot of our listeners, that sense that it's got to be really bad before you seek help, I think will also be something that people out there might feel. And yet what you've said, it was an earlier intervention, and it wasn't nearly as bad as it might have been.  So I just wondered if I can talk to Sherrie for a moment and ask about what it was like for you, getting to know Tafi and,from the CBT therapist's point of view. Sherrie: Well, I think what the first thing that strikes me is that Tafi and I socialised fairly regularly. We were a bit younger in those days. So the socialising honestly did tend to focus on large groups, at the pub, at a museum, at a place, and even when we do have dinner time, so if Tafi would come over and just hang out and have a meal, you are still so preoccupied with the day to day that unless someone brings something to you, you might not actually know what's going on. Whilst all this was going on, I had no clue what Tafi was going through. So the first time we actually really got talking about this was when he was visiting me, so after he had completed his treatments and we were hanging out on the balcony that I'm looking at, and we were just talking. He was talking about what am I going to do in America. And I was talking about having left the NHS and working in CBT and that's how the conversation started really was after the fact. And like a lot of conversations between Tafi and I, we of course got down to the pragmatics first before we got around to hey, this realisation that how is it that we see each other all the time? I'm a therapist, you literally went through the same service I used to work at, the same type of service and I'm only learning this about you now. And I think that's very telling and I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with Tafi and I as individuals. I don't think this is unique. I think this is really common, that it's part of that stigma that sometimes it's even difficult to say it to ourselves. And if it's difficult to say it to yourself, how do you then say it to someone else? So I think that's part of what that, that process is, that Tafi was in a space where he was at able to also recognise that this is something I can talk about because it's not something I need to feel ashamed of. And Tafi gave me the opportunity to ask the kinds of questions you don't get to ask as a therapist. So what was that process of waiting actually like? What did it look like when you got to the website and you were being directed? What did that look like and what did that feel like and was it difficult to navigate those kind of technical questions that I do think massively impact your journey, so that was also just really fortunate. Helen: Thank you, Sherrie, and I mean, one of the things that, that it was really telling there as well. I mean, sometimes, if I let people know what I do for a living, they'll ask me, are you reading my mind? And the point that you've just made there is that you've got a friend that you socialise with, you've known for years, and yet you didn't necessarily know what was going on until it came up in, and I think you used the phrase after the fact, and I think that might be a lesson for us as therapists as well, that not to assume that people will tell us because it might be hard or it might not come up. Sherrie: Or they might be concerned that we're going to try and push them into therapy because it's literally our job. So Tafi really touched on this, where he had an idea about what therapy was. And I think so many of our decisions are based on these ideas and it's not necessarily what therapy is. So in my own life, I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine. I was on my way to therapy because everyone should have therapy. And my friend was like, oh yeah, therapy, easy peasy, you go and lie in a sofa and talk about your problems. And I was like, what? what sofa? And I was not doing psychotherapy, unfortunately, there was no sofa involved. But my point is it's just genuinely not having an understanding and not being in a society where we can be comfortable talking about these things and me going, actually no, there's no sofa, I don't talk about my feelings. It's very different. And then I guess for me, that was an opportunity to explain to my friend what I did as a therapist. Not necessarily what I was doing in therapy, but I was like, hey, just so you know, my clients don't lie on a sofa either. So again, just I think dispelling a lot of the mythology of therapy is a big part of it. And yes, that stigma does cling on us as therapists with our mind reading, and our desire to treat you. And Tafi was amazing. He was so real with me about it too, about how scary it was. And it's not something you spend a lot of time thinking about as a therapist cause you're spending so much time thinking about making everyone comfortable. But why are you spending so much time making people comfortable? cause it's actually really scary and uncomfortable experience at first, and we learn about it, but it hits differently when it's someone like really genuinely sharing that with you. Helen: Thank you. So Tafi, no sofas. What did you actually have to do if you weren't? I mean, I completely agree with Sherri, that image of lying on the sofa, telling someone your deepest secrets, that's not actually what therapy is really like. So for you, what was actually helpful? What was it that, that you benefited from when you accessed the therapy if it wasn't lying on a settee? Tafi: No, that's a great, great question. I think the first, was the normalisation of it for me because as someone who hadn't had any previous contact with the concept of mental health assistance or what help looks like. I actually assumed that everybody is going through the same experience as me, which is that they have these feelings, they have negative thoughts that they deal with internally and externally you are presenting strength and just being happy and getting on with things and getting on with people. And then what you deal with is your own problem that you deal with by yourself. And I just assumed that everybody is going through the same human experience where they have their challenges, their difficulties, but there are theirs to deal with. So that's what I assumed was happening. So it was actually quite helpful in itself just to understand that, actually my experience is more severe with some of these feelings than I should have to put up with. So not to say that I am not normal, but it's more than I have to put up with, and I could actually get rid of quite a lot of these things, and it's normal for a lot of people to feel that way. So when I was at the height of feeling like, ooh, I could, I can say with hindsight now that I will say I was struggling. I just thought this was normal. But the tension was so high that when I got to that escalator at Bank Underground Station, I would feel a lot of these physical sensations of, I guess now that I know are associated with the anxiety of the challenges that I had to then go tackle. So these are things that I notice now, and I think the normalisation of that and just understanding that these are things that you don't have to feel basically, if you are willing to try and go through these steps. So I was already hooked at module one and I could tell this is for me. Yeah, so I really think there's, I believe a lot of people out there, like me for whom a lot of their need is a gap in information, just a gap in knowledge about how normal it is and the fact that there are things that can be done. So just those two things, as basic as they are, I think can have a lot of a big impact for people like me who just haven't been exposed to any therapeutic techniques or language or discussion. Helen: And it's really interesting to hear you talk about that. At the same time, I do wonder whether there were any steps that you were expected to take that were actually really hard. I mean, you did mention that it was hard to get on the escalator at the Bank underground station. Were there things in the therapy itself that were particularly difficult? Tafi: To be honest with you, when I self-referred through IAPT, the first step was to have a phone call with someone and that was very uncomfortable for me because I had never discussed these inner things with anybody. So that was quite daunting but because I had chosen the self-guided program from there it was up to me. I think as someone who resonates with academic things or from the finance world, you're used to learning that I was in a comfortable space once I was meeting those topics in a place where I'm having privacy. What it has done for me though, is that I am now open to face-to-face therapy because I understand the context, the language, I'm more understanding of that is normal. And also I understand better what therapy is about and what I can get from therapy. So I just needed an introduction, which gave me, I think a sense of being in control and also the privacy that I needed at this time to be able to unpack a lot of these things and understand them so that, years later, I can talk openly with you now. So yeah, so I think for me there was just quite a good fit between the form of help for the stage of my journey, which I was in. Helen: Well, I guess the next question then really is how did you get from that and finding the guided self-help materials? How did you get from that towards developing the app? So you know, you've gone from being somebody on the receiving end to developing something that helps other people. Tafi: Yeah, I think when I was on the receiving end, one of the things that I found really shocking and I didn't expect myself was that, for me, I struggled with a lot of automatic negative thoughts. Those I'm useless, or I can't do this, or I'll always be like X, Y, Z. I struggled a lot with those automatic negative thoughts. So developing that skill around identifying how thought, feelings, behaviours are connected and starting to do that repeatedly for myself and then doing repeatedly thought challenging. I found that over time, naturally I was having less of the negative thoughts without intentionally trying to not have them. I just wasn't having them, and I was having more of the balanced thoughts being my automatic thoughts. So I found that really transformative. I found the mindfulness exercises to also be really powerful as I practiced it more and more. I just, again, it wasn't intentional that I was thinking different. I just three months later realised wait a minute, I'm thinking differently, I'm not having the same experience of life, if you like, that I was having before. So that's what gave me a deep sense of that the science that's behind this, really works because I can say what I want about my ability to read and to understand what I'm reading but definitely there's some science that's happening in the background that is doing something to me here. I believed in the method, I believed in the science through my personal experience but then I also, at times, although it was an amazing intervention, it worked for me. I did feel like, I'm a bit of an accidental user. They didn't imagine this Zimbabwean, crazed kid, coming through and, and using this, which is fine because I think the interventions are developed with their whole audience in mind. It doesn't mean they can't be used elsewhere but there is definitely a person in mind, as the audience, which for me triggered the question of saying, well, who will think about the African context? Who's going to have enough of an interest to say if this is made for, with the metaphors, with the ways of thinking, talking, that we have here in Africa, that from living in both places I know are quite different. It became a question of who's going to think about that, but that's not something that I did alone because of course, Sherrie was herself resonating with that question to say, well, who's going to think about it? And obviously yeah, that's how things came about. Helen: That's fantastic and I'm really curious to hear from you both, have you got any examples of the kind of metaphors or analogies that I might use because I'm based here in the UK that are different from the ones that would resonate with people that are from where you come from originally? Sherrie: Yeah, so one of the metaphors we frequently use in the UK is talking about a stool when we are talking about balance, the stool needs three legs. Okay in South Africa, we're going to tell you about a potjie pot. Helen: You are going to have to explain that, Sherrie. Sherrie: So a potjie pot, it's like a cauldron. It's a type of cooking pot. It's a very popular African cooking pot, it's used outdoors, but it's something that is a bit more familiar to us. It's a small thing. Of course, we have stools, but even the word stool is just very English. So yeah, we talk about potjie pots instead.And then just simple things like if we are talking about animals, I'm not going to talk to you about a fox, you don't have any foxes. I'm probably going to describe a different animal. Simple things like when we are talking about barriers, I'm not going to be speaking to people in London about rolling blackouts. They'll be like, what are you on about? But if I'm working with the clients or even within the app, if I'm guiding you through a particular skill where I need to think about your ability to follow through on that skill. I need to think about whether you have access and when you have access. And even if I don't think about that, I'm going to help you think about that. So when we're planning, we're going to think, okay, what are your barriers? Because they look different. Of course everyone has their own unique barriers, but I'm talking about social barriers. I'm not going to say, oh, pop down to the shops, if I know that you live in a location, and that you got to go to the spaza, I'm going to say go to the spaza. Those kinds of little differences. And then also in terms of broader differences, so acknowledging and bringing into the culture, bringing in those cultural aspects. So we are very big into Ubuntu, that's something I bring into the CBT. We put a lot of focus on, I guess more of a communal aspect and what does community mean to us as Africans? What do our networks look like because they might look a bit different. So for example, if I'm in England, I might suggest you go to a peer support group. If you're in South Africa, I might say, hey, go to your elders. We know what that means, there's someone in your community who's designated an elder, you can go and speak to them. That's kind of part of their role. So just thinking a little bit differently about what is life like for you? Yeah, we all human, but you know, these are the things that make us who we are, but also your environments. It's absolutely linked to everything. That's what the five areas model is. We don't put this all on you. This isn't all on you. You are part of this broader system. So we like to try and bring that in, and I think there's something about that is also quite African. Helen: I'm loving what you're saying. And even though what you're saying, it is African, to me it's really relevant to everybody everywhere thinking about what actually is meaningful to you, in your context, wherever you are, whether that's the middle of London or the middle of nowhere, whichever continent you are in and something about using sort of images that are familiar to you, your community, your locality, and who are the people that you go to talk to that isn't the therapist, for example, who are the people who'll support you? To me it all sounds really relevant. Tafi: Absolutely. If I could just add to or build on the cultural differences. They can be in ways that surprise us, I think people might not expect certain things. So for example, like Sherrie's saying, in our culture at a funeral, there are songs that are sung, and they're not necessarily downbeat songs as well. So it's just that idea that cultures can work dramatically differently. Another example is I always use this, my own experience of, we have the saying in the UK that a person changes like the weather. And for me growing up in Zimbabwe, I thought it meant that person is very reliable, isn't it? Because the weather hardly changes. It's 25 degrees, it's sunny. I can rely on that person. Helen: That's a wonderful example. Tafi: Yeah, it of course took one trip to Manchester and experiencing the weather changing in one day to know that, okay, that's not what that means. And so I wouldn't blame someone in the UK for assuming that statement has the same global relevance as it has in the UK, but clearly it would be a cultural disconnect for some of here. Helen: Thank you. And I mean, as a therapist standing here, I'm making notes, about what you're saying and, we do talk about including people from different backgrounds and different cultures that always need to think more carefully and more broadly about what are the implications of the assumptions that I make without realising I'm making them. And I just love that one about being like the weather. I really love that one. Sherrie: And again, I think the focus is as you said, I mean, it's not that it's not going to be relevant to someone else. I think that the process of therapy is hard graft. I don't still need you to put in the cognitive energy to figure out a metaphor that doesn't hit quite right. So again, it's not saying, oh, we need vastly different, no. All we are saying is, hey, let's just try and make it as accessible as possible and that does mean not spending an extra five minutes trying to figure out what on earth I'm talking about in a metaphor that is just weather. Helen: So can you tell us a bit about how the app itself actually works? It's been developed for that context, but you said it may well have a broader relevance. Tell us a bit about what somebody expects if they're looking at the app. Sherrie: So I would say it's important for us to think about our specific aims. So like most people, one of the big aims was to introduce some kind of intervention. So South Africa does tend to focus on, what I would call a late-stage intervention, so hospitalisation, inpatient care. And so we were recognising this massive gap. Obviously, Tafi and I are seeing that within our personal lives and that was one of the first things. So we really wanted to give something to plug the gap, so access. Tafi and I are absolute nerds, total geeks. We wanted it to be very scientific. Yes, we did want it to be something for the African context, but you know, specifically. we wanted it to be top quality for the African context. We didn't want it to be the forgotten, oh, okay, we made it for here, but you can have it anywhere, we wanted to actually do something that was ours.  So I think that was the starting points which obviously leads you to thinking about the barriers. So what are the major barriers? Why is it that most people are receiving inpatient care? So you start there, you obviously start doing your research on the ground. Just ask people, don't make assumptions, what is your experience? Okay, do you have health insurance? Do you not have insurance? Those are two very different pathways, very different experiences. So starting to understand what that map looks like, and then thinking, okay, how do we plug this gap? So our first iteration, we were actually looking at doing a completely text-based intervention. And we realised, look actually that's not going to be quite enough what for what we are trying to do. And so that's how we landed on the app. And then from the app, I basically just took therapy, it's not reinventing the wheel, honestly. There's no miracles happening here. I took what we do in therapy, so best practice and I applied that to an app. So the first point of call when you get to the app is to go through your symptom levels. We don't work with diagnosis, we tend to talk about symptom levels. Okay? I can't diagnose you, I don't know your whole history, but I also don't need to know your whole history at this point. So we get you to start thinking. So this is what Tafi was talking about introducing a vocabulary, so an understanding that's your first points already. We're saying, okay, let's talk about what you're experiencing. The user then gets feedback on those measures. We use the PHQ, we use the GAD, we use the WSAS of course. So that gives us an idea of what you're experiencing and that allows us then to streamline them into a particular treatment module. Okay. So the different modules are, of course, for different presentations. At the moment, the app focuses on anxiety, depression, and we have two comorbid groups depending on whether the user feels that they want to focus on the anxious symptoms more, or they want to start with their depressive symptoms more. So what is the bigger focus for the user at the time? We've also included what we call our wellbeing group, which is for people who have come to the app, they're presenting as subclinical in terms of their symptom levels. But clearly you're here because you feel you need something or you want something, you want to do something. So we focus on resilience there. So yeah, fine, you're not presenting, and again, I use the word presenting because we know that sometimes we can withhold information, but also no scale is perfect. So we sort of then direct those people to what I consider the more resilient focused stuff. So a lot of mindfulness, relaxation practice, so still getting something but not quite the full treatment. The user then goes through a process in the app. So generally, it's exactly like face-to-face therapy. Basically, the modules mimic a one-to-one session. So we start off with a joke, a little bit of dopamine to get you hooked. Yes, shameless in that. Little bit of dopamine, bring a bit of humour, get you to feel a bit relaxed so you can really engage with the content. The content's very short, it's very modulated, and any session, we start by reviewing what you've done. I introduce a rationale for what you're going to learn, so that skill or technique, we go through that and most crucially, we then focus on the practice. So that's one of the things we're very big on. I think one of the things Tafi hit on is this amazing thing where CBT is crazy in that I don't actually need you to understand why you are doing what you're doing. If you just do the stuff, you will eventually notice the benefits. And that's not just based on the data, that's based on Tafi's experience, it's based on my own experience. So we very much focus on the behaviour because at the end of the day, it's, I do think it's not so much about what we think and what we say, it's about what we go and do. So we try to get the user to really focus on how are you going to integrate this? How do you make this part of your life? So very practice focused. We review the practice and the idea is that you get to a point where you feel you've mastered a skill before you move on. So that's where the self-guided part is. You can just go through it all, but the self-part is really in terms of thinking about, okay, I can give you all the tools, but you still have to make that decision for yourself if you've mastered it. And more importantly, do you find it helpful? Because you don't need to find everything helpful. We take least intervention first. I'm happy if you do one module and this is the thing that you need. Because I think that's the tricky part about any kind of therapy is finding what fits for you. What is your motivation. So for example, Tafi, he was very comfortable with the app because like he said, he likes learning so it was an environment he was familiar with. So that's really the focus on the app, is on those real world skills. And I guess ultimately we are trying to teach you that iterative process of being your own therapist. And that's really what the app is about. With some sign posting, of course, because I would be a terrible community psychologist if I didn't do some sign posting. Helen: Tell me a little bit about what you mean by signposting, because I think I might have been about to ask you, sort of if somebody needs more or needs something different, how would they know? Sherrie: Yeah. So one of the things about the app is we have designed it to be completely self-guided. So it can be a standalone intervention, but a tool should have more than one use. So it is also intended to be used as a therapeutic tool, not just with CBT therapists. So in terms of giving your client that literally in pocket support- you don't remember what I said in session. That's fine. Go to your app. So that's wonderful because it does free up a lot of space in your therapy sessions. We work with quite a lot of OTs. OTs absolutely love the tool. Again, it means that they can focus on something else in their session whilst also ensuring that their clients is getting that additional support because as we know, it's very rarely that you have some kind of long-term difficulty or even short-term health difficulty without that impacting your mental health. I think the main thing is find what motivates you. That's where the signposting comes in. So sometimes it's simple things like, I suggest some yoga stretching as part of your nighttime routine. Okay. I can literally signpost due to a YouTube video. Fabulous. Or I can signpost due to yoga institute that, and there are lots, that have free resources. That's the signposting. Of course we also do crisis signposting. That's the reality if you're working with any kind of mental health. No intervention is everything and that's where I think signposting can come in handy is going, hey, we aren't actually everything. Here are some other options. Helen: And I'm really pleased that you said that I was going to ask you about, if there was a reason to worry about someone's safety or if there was some kind of emergency really, your app helps people to go to the right place for help. Sherrie: Unsurprisingly, it's one of the first things that we thought about. So when it comes to crisis support, most systems have their own particular way of dealing with it, who you refer to, who you deal with, you've got a supervisor, whatever the case is. An app doesn't necessarily perfectly fit into that, especially if you're an app working across multiple use cases So that was one of the first things that we thought about.So the app includes a little logo at the top of each page. So it's always there. It's quite subtle, but it's easily seen so it doesn't feel doom and gloom. It's just a little red phone, but you hit the little red phone and it's going to take you to that support immediately. And the first thing we do is we just give a normalising message. So simply say, okay, you've come to this page, you clearly need some support. You might be going through something that's absolutely fine. It's normal. But the important thing is that you get the help that you need. Here are a list of options. What do you want to do?  I think it's also important that we don't just include telephones because again, I know that when we say one-to-one, we tend to think of that as a conversation, but that is, can be very generational. One to one can also be via an online chat. It can be via email. So again, I think just as a heads up to anyone who's thinking about getting into this, if you are going to be signposting, just think about different types of access. There are different ways that people like to communicate. So yeah, that normalising message and that instant support, and most crucially, make sure it's visible at all times. Helen: You just mentioned there's a generational difference between people, so you are talking to me- I grew up listening to music on cassette players, so if you've got people out there who are maybe not so familiar with the technology, that they wouldn't necessarily automatically go to an app or might absolutely assume that if you need some kind of help, you need to talk to a person, even if you're not lying on the sofa. You might want to talk to a real person. What would you say to somebody who's maybe less comfortable with doing everything on their phone? Sherrie: So I get the hesitation there. I think it's important to not get hung up on the delivery method. So in our research we actually found that, we had participants aged 18 to 69. And when we looked at the data, obviously we keep doing the research, but as it stands, age actually had no impact on usage or recovery.so I think a lot of the times this ties back into the ideas about therapy, is don't do yourself dirty. You don't know what your experience is going to be until you try. And it's okay if you try and it's just not for you, but you might be very surprised at just how easy and comfortable it is, and even though you're not talking to someone, one of the big things that we get in terms of feedback is that it feels like you're speaking to someone. And then finally. We do have you in mind. We have everyone in mind. It's okay if you're not technologically advanced. I don't need you to be, that's Bernard's problem. By the way, Bernard is the other co-founder. He's the tech. It's Bernard's job to make it accessible, but we do really think about just making something that's easy. Again, it's always about reducing that cognitive load. So I would encourage anyone to just give it a try, and that goes for all therapy. So give it a try. If it doesn't work, that's also okay, but you might be very surprised. Helen: Thank you Sherrie. And I think one of the things that you've told me before we started recording this Tafi is that one of the things that you were bearing in mind when you were thinking about accessibility, I think I understood from you that many people do have a mobile phone, but things like access to data can be an issue. So tell us how you address that as part of the project. Tafi: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, I'll even broaden it to say when we think about our role, in a business journey, we are definitely not replacing face-to-face therapies or tele therapies. And actually, I always start a lot of presentations and conversations by saying if someone has the confidence, as well as the financial means to engage in face-to-face therapy, I 100% recommend it as because now at this stage in my journey I understand the benefit and the power that's to be gained from talking therapy, so that's the starting point. And then of course, for some people the confidence is an issue in which case perhaps regardless of their age, as Sherrie pointed out, they might persevere and figure out how the app works, even though we do try to make it simple. Unfortunately, in our African context, the affordability plays a bigger role because in the UK there's of course the very well, to us, very well resourced NHS to British people under resourced, which it is. but from our perspective, there's a well-resourced public health service that can give you a full dosage of help. And then maybe you can guide me in terms of when you have someone who typically has maybe moderate or moderately severe difficulties, how many sessions would they be allocated by the NHS. Helen: Well, that's a very good question, but I would say a starting point of at least six and maybe 12 and sometimes more if the difficulties are more severe than that. Yeah, there, there is definitely the possibility of seeing someone who understands and can listen to you and even at what we call low intensity level, that would be probably six sessions. And then at high intensity, probably quite a few more. Tafi: Okay. And, and so in South Africa we find that the people who do have access to that form of health are those who have private medical aid insurance, private health insurance, which I think is something like 20% or less of the population. And those people form pretty much the wealthier parts of society and they get typically three sessions of face-to-face therapy as what they get through benefits, unless of course unless it is, it's under what they call prescribed minimum benefits where they just have to help you. But if you are getting generally help, at an early stage, you're getting three sessions and that's often what you get either through your employer or your insurer. So there's a huge underdosing that's happening, which means people don't have the affordability barrier before we even get to the other costs. The affordability is just out of there for everybody. And then we do, as you mentioned, try to address other aspects of accessibility, and one of them is mobile data costs, because when I lived in London, you can sit next to someone on the train and there'll be streaming Game of Throne in HD, and watching the full hours episode. For someone in Africa that could be their entire year's budget for mobile data costs, the cost of streaming that. So then we have to make it sensitive to that with a lot of accessibility of the treatment when you're offline. So there's a lot of relevancy that we've built in, but I think the biggest issue we have is just sheer affordability and then the huge amount of underdosing that happens as a result of affordability. And then we also have, of course, the technical barriers of data costs, mobile phones that don't have a lot of storage capacity, things like that. So we address those challenges as well. Helen: I mean, it sounds like an awful lot of thought has gone into the practicalities of it as well as including the science, and I'm just standing here  thinking that although you've designed that for the African context, it really does sound like there's a lot of those things that could well be relevant in the continent of Europe, Britain, where I'm based. I know that Sherrie's not in Africa at the moment. How relevant is it to people who aren't in Africa or from African heritage, let's say? Sherrie: Absolutely. I mean, as relevant as it was for Tafi when he was in the UK. At the end of the day, these are universal experiences. The only thing that's being changed is the way we communicate the ideas to you, but it's all based on the same science. I mean, none of the metaphors are going to be that wild especially in the age of Google. You might be like, what is a potjie pot? And you Google it and it says cauldron. You might say, what is a hyena? And you can be Google it and it's like an ugly dog, but you know the main idea is there. So I would say it's still relevant. Helen: Thank you, Sherrie. I am really grateful to the two of you for coming to talk to me today and we're going to finish in a moment, but before we go, Tafi, can I ask you if there's people out there listening who are having similar experiences to the ones that brought you into contact with CBT and everything that's happened since, is there one key thing that you want people out there to know or to remember from our conversation today? Tafi: Yeah, certainly. I think I can speak from the perspective of a man and our preconceptions of what reaching out for quote unquote help is, and it's just to say it is not a weakness, it's not a weak act. It's actually arming yourself with skills, with tools, that will only better you. So that was the key revelation for me. I always say to people, would you rather your plumber turned up with one spanner or a belt full of tools. And I think it's just gives us that belt full of tools to really just get through life better professionally, and personally as well. So I just encourage them to see it as an upliftment as opposed to an act of weakness. Helen: Thank you so much. And Tafi and Sherrie, thank you again for coming to talk to me today. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you and a privilege to hear about your stories. Thank you. Sherrie: Thank you so much for having us. Tafi: Thank you Helen. Helen: Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected], that's [email protected]. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.      

In this episode of Let's Talk About CBT, Helen Macdonald speaks with Phil Cooper, mental health nurse and co-founder of the charity State of Mind Sport, and Ian Knott, former professional rugby league player and State of Mind presenter. Phil shares how State of Mind was born out of tragedy and developed into an award-winning mental fitness programme, now reaching thousands of athletes across the UK and beyond. Ian talks candidly about his experience of severe injury, depression, and suicidal thoughts after retiring from sport, and how CBT helped him to rebuild his life. We hear how sports settings are being used to break down stigma, encourage conversations, and promote mental health support—particularly among men—and how brief interactions and powerful personal stories can save lives. Resources & Links: State of Mind Sport website Information on CBT and how to find a therapist If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at [email protected] Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen MacDonald, your host. I'm the senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies Today what we've got for you is an episode about mental health, mental fitness and sports, and I've got Phil and Ian here to talk to me today. Phil, will you just introduce yourself? Phil: My name's Phil Cooper. I'm a mental health nurse by background. I used to work as a nurse consultant in mental health and drug and alcohol misuse. I love sport. And, for some strange reason or quirk of random chaos, I became to be one of the co-founders of State of Mind Sport charity that focuses on mental fitness. Helen: Thank you, Phil. Ian, please, will you introduce yourself? Ian: My name's Ian Knott. I'm a former rugby league professional and I currently am a presenter for State of Mind. I talk about my story, my lived experience of having to retire through a serious injury and then developing mental illness. So I talk about that. Helen: Thanks very much, Ian, and I'm sure our listeners will want to hear more about that later in this episode. Firstly though, can I ask Phil to tell us a bit more? Phil, will you tell us about State of Mind and how it came to be and what it does? Phil: Sure State of Mind Sport began unfortunately on the back of a tragedy within the sport of rugby league, where a Great Britain Rugby League international called Terry Newton, unfortunately took his own life in September, 2010. Sent great shock waves, I think, through the whole sport for such a high profile player. At the time there was relatively little support or mental health support for players at that time. I suppose as a mental health nurse who loves rugby league and sport, I read a league paper on a Monday morning, somebody wrote an article saying how the NHS and the sport should get together to try and prevent suicide. Also, somebody also wrote a letter, again a mental health professional, called Malcolm Rae and Ernie Benbow had written the article and I saw this and thinking, wow, this is Monday morning, I shall write these two individuals- checked with my chief exec, of course, because obviously you have to be doing all these things- and then invited them to a meeting we were going to have in good old health style a conference, that soon changed when we invited a couple of players such as Ian, and they suggested, why didn't we ask the governing body for a round of fixtures to promote mental health at that time or mental fitness. I then found myself in the strange position being ferried to Hull Kingston Rovers Ground to be presented before all the chief execs of all the top divisions with clubs to say, this is a really good idea. It's free. So the sport love that bit and, we'll deliver a session to your players before the season and then a round of fixtures themed around that. So we had a State of Mind round in 2011 and player bought into it. There was very little support, as I said, and they began to talk about it on social media. They wore t-shirts in the warmup before the round of fixtures, but crucially, they knew what it was about, and they were all bought in. Things have grown massively since that time, which has been great for us. And also promoting mental fitness in rugby league, one of the toughest sports on the planet. Helen: Thank you Phil. So can you tell us a little bit more about what you really mean by mental fitness? Phil: Certainly, okay. I think language is crucial, as I'm sure all your members will realise and will think about on a regular basis. So for me, to get into a situation of encouraging men or engaging men into something that will help them, if I say, if I used to say, well, we'll come in and deliver a mental health session for you into a local grassroots sports club. I can imagine the reaction would be flipping heck, I'm not going into that. However, when you can make the case that actually you are going to go to training for physical fitness, what a lot of athletes will tell you that the mental fitness is perhaps the most important aspect of being a professional sports person or being the best sports person you can be. So therefore, if we go in and say, well, we're going to try and improve your mental fitness, men tend to sort of buy into that, especially if you go to them in their grassroots club, they wouldn't come to me in a community mental health team, but they would certainly go training two nights a week in their local club. And you have a captive audience potentially, especially when the weather's bad and they can't train on the pitch. And the coaches will want something different to either entertain or, keep the players focused on what they want to achieve. So State of Mind deliver mental fitness sessions so we look at anxiety and depression using a GAD-7 and a PHQ-9, as I'm sure your members will be very familiar with and again, we deliver that in a style that's not sat down in front of somebody asking them to fill in a questionnaire with a pen or online or whatever. So we'll do that. We will have two presenters usually. So Ian being one of those, I might have been the clinical dude once or twice with Ian, of course, and I'll ask him about how he's been feeling over the last few weeks using a PHQ-9 or a GAD-7. He'll tell me some strange answers, which he never used to tell me what they were going to be, I would then ask the audience how anxious or how low in mood Ian was based on those answers. So you keep all the information away from your audience, but you involve them to use all the different learning styles, so audio visual, kinaesthetic, all of those learning styles to get to as many of those people as possible. So we've been doing that for 10 years. Hundreds of thousands of people have attended sessions, which is ridiculous when I think back, but also numerous people have told us that they changed their mind about taking their own life and that's the sort of thing that keeps you going every week. And going to wherever we're going of a Tuesday or a Thursday evening, or even as I found myself in a dressing room last Saturday, so before a football match, just talking to players. So all of those things, we do mental health first aid. You can look on stateofmindsport.org if you really want to know. I don't want to want too much about that, but that's what we do. And we go to people where they are. We try to engage people where they are. Helen: And I'm hearing you are reaching a huge number of people, probably people who wouldn't easily go and look for help, like perhaps men in maybe more traditional settings where we don't talk about mental health or mental fitness as you put it. That's really important. But also this work is saving lives and that seems to me as a really important piece of work that's happening here. And I wonder if I can ask Ian to come in now. And Ian, you said, about your lived experience and that's what's brought you into working with State of Mind Sport. Can you talk a bit about your experiences? Ian: So my kind of story started in 2004 while playing for Leigh Centurions. At the time I probably had about 12 years I think at professional rugby. I played at the highest-level barring international level, and after 12 years of playing at the highest level, I dropped down division to play for Leigh Centurions And at the time, Leigh were making a massive push to get into Super League. I never played in Super League before, and halfway through the season, I can remember we played against Halifax away from home, and I ran with the ball, and I got tackled and there was nothing wrong with this tackle at all, but I felt these god awful pains in my lower back and it felt like my leg was, I don't know, it's like tingling and my foot was in like a bucket of water or something like that. So it felt, which was strange because we are really hot summers day. So obviously I came off reluctantly, because we are a bit stupid, old rugby players, we do play with injuries. But I did come off, and then a couple of days later the pain got worse, so I got sent for a scan. And I got told in no certain terms had a very large disc prolapse at the bottom of my back. So they said you can't play, you need to obviously get treatment and then you'll be okay for the next season. So I went back and had a meeting with the club, and we all came to the sensible conclusion to ignore the surgeon and played with a slipped disc for half a season. Now to say that was painful would be an understatement. During the week, I couldn't train at all, the pain was that bad. Then on a Saturday morning, I'd have a painkiller injection to do a ball work session. Then on a Sunday, I'd have two full syringes in for 24 places in the spine to try and get me through these games. I'd be throwing up on the pitch, the pain was that bad. It was very hard. It was very difficult, but it ended up being quite rewarding because we won the treble and we gained promotion to Super League, which was amazing. I was lucky enough to be captain and so I managed to lift all three trophies. So then two days after the grand final, I remember having an operation to relieve the disc, woke up in recovery and all the pain down my leg had gone and it felt amazing. I still had a bit of back pain but I could cope with that. So from there, I had rehab and then race to pre-season, and then the next season, like Leighs first year Super League. I think we were about 12 games in, and I think we played Halifax away again, coincidentally. And it's a similar story. I took a ball in but this time it was quite a bad tackle. I got clothes lined, so the legs went from underneath me, and I landed on my spine again. Now these pains came flooding back. I couldn't quite describe to you now how bad the pain was. because it was horrendous. But the best way to describe it would be, my wife was sat at the top of the stand, and I was in the middle of the pitch, and she would hear me screaming from where I was. The pain was bad. So I got stretchered off, straight to hospital. Again, another scan. So as I'm waiting in hospital for the operation, my surgeon came to see me, and he put my scan up on a whiteboard next to me. So obviously I asked him, you know what's the problem? So he said, look, he said, you're not going to be able to play rugby ever again. He said, in my opinion, you're going to struggle to find work again you know the damage is that bad and God knows what I'm going to find when I open you up and look in. Now, at the time I was strong mentally, so I thought, so I'm thinking to yourself, obviously I'm going to start find work again because I need to, I have two young boys at the time, I have a wife I was supporting, so I need to find work. So I thought, I'll prove you wrong. I woke up in recovery, unfortunately for me, I was screaming in pain, the operation just didn't take, and I spent the next, I'd say roughly 12 months in that hospital. I had five operations on my spine in the space of probably two and a half years. To say that my mental health dipped in that period would be a massive understatement. I'd gone from being a full-time professional and I trained three times a day if I was bored when I got home, I go for a run. Basically, I was hyperactive, I couldn't keep still. I went from that to literally being that to being completely bedridden. My wife, she had her dream job, she absolutely loved it. She had to give that up to become my full-time carer. She had to wash me in bed, dress me in bed, she shaved me in bed. if I needed the toilet for a pee she'd help me pee in a bottle. If I needed a toilet for anything else, she'd help me with that. My wife was amazing how she did what she did, I do not know. But I did I appreciate her for it, not one little bit. I'd do nothing but shout and scream at her all the time. She'd be trying to talk to me, encourage me and I'd just shout at her all the time. Like I said, I had two young boys and they'd come off from nursery and I'd hear them coming upstairs to see their dad, excited and then that for me was like somebody putting the nails down the blackboard, they grated on me so much. I hate saying this now, I really do, my kids and my wife and my world, everything I do is for my wife and kids. But during this period, I wanted nothing to do with them because I was obviously very depressed. I did not know what depression was. And I come from an era and from a sport as well really, where you don't show any weakness. So, I took that into my normal life, and I just tried to put a brave face on things and I wouldn't talk about it, even if I did know what depression was because I was supposed to be a big tough man, so I'm not supposed to talk about the problems. So I didn't and it just got worse and worse. It felt like my head was stuck in a vice and every day this vice was just getting tighter and tighter to the point where I just felt like my head was going to explode. I was taking roughly 30 painkillers a day. I was on liquid morphine. I was on morphine patch. So if I wasn't screaming in pain or screaming at my wife and kids, I was doped out on drugs. That was literally my life in these same four walls all the time. I just, I wasn't living, I was just existing, if that's the right way to say it. And I just didn't know what to do. But I got a lifeline because I got a chance to have a device implanted in my stomach, a pain device, which is, it's called a morphine pump. It's got liquid morphine, it's got anaesthetic inside it, and it goes directly into my spinal fluid. Now, obviously, if we all have a headache or anything, you take tablets and it obviously goes down your body and then it goes to your head. With me, I was taking all this medication it had gone all the way around my body before it got to my back and by the time it got to my back, it wasn't doing anything. So I had a trial for this morphine pump and the pain relief was amazing. But it couldn't fit me in for an operation straight away. I had to wait another six months. So I had this kind of high of having this trial, which was amazing. And then the lows again the depression sinking in because you had to wait another six months. So, as I was waiting, obviously the depression got worse and worse. Again, shouting at my wife and kids again. And I'd say about three days before the operation. I can remember my spirits picked up and I was really buzzing thinking, I'm going to get my life back because that's the way they kind of explained it to me. This pump, you're going to be able to walk about more, you're going to be able to socialise more and things like that. So I was really excited. I was buzzing, so I went in for the operation thinking that's it, now my life's going to start again. But unfortunately for me, I woke up in recovery and I was screaming again in agony. The pain just didn't, so it was worse, the pain relief just didn't work whatsoever because during that six-month period, I was taking more and morphine patches, I was taking even more liquid morphine. So the dosage that they used in the trial, literally just didn't touch me. So again, I spent the next 12 months in and out of hospital. I'd say roughly about between 25 and 30 times trying to get this dosage sorted. And again, to say that my mental health dipped in that period would be an understatement because there's no other way of saying it, I became suicidal. For me, every thought on my mind was not only do I not want to be here, but mainly the way I rationalised it was I didn't deserve to be here. My wife deserves someone to love her, to cherish her, to treat her like the brilliant woman that she is. I wasn't doing that. And my kids deserve someone to love them, to play with them, to teach them right from wrong and just to be a good dad. And again, I wasn't doing that at all. So I thought the best thing for my family and for me to be honest with you, would be for me not to be here. So it wasn't a case of, I didn't really think that I wanted to die, but in all honesty, I just didn't really think that I wanted to live anymore. That might sound weird to say, but I just, I couldn't cope with the pain that I was feeling and I couldn't cope with the pain that I could see on my wife and kids face all the time. So, I went downstairs one morning, I just had enough. I got a pint of water, a box of tablets and a bottle of Oramorph, liquid morphine. I took the tablets in the water upstairs, I started to swallow all the tablets because I couldn't cope with it anymore. I realised I forgot the morphine, so as I get up to get the morphine, I've got photographs of my wife, me and my family going all the way down my hallway and down the stairs. I started to look at these photographs and I, throughout my depression and throughout the era of suicidal thoughts, I've gone past these photographs, and thought nothing of it, but for some reason, now I'm not religious at all, but I thank God to this day that I really started to look at these photographs and it's like, I just thought to myself, what am I doing here? I think I'm doing my wife and kids a favour by ending my life when the reality is I'm going to ruin my wife's life, my son's life, my family's and God knows how many others. So I went to the bathroom as quick as I could. I put my fingers down my throat to get as much medication out as I could. Obviously rang for an ambulance and everything. And then from that point I was under the care of the crisis team at the mental health clinic for the best part of eight months, I think something like that. And my time there was, it was difficult, but you know what? It ended up being very rewarding. That's where I was introduced to CBT. And what really helped me was managing to change my thoughts because I honestly thought at the time I was a burden to my family. My wife hated me, my kids hated me when the reality is they didn't, they loved me. And it was me managing to change my thought patterns that really helped me get through this. In all honesty, I struggled with it for a little bit, the CBT, because it is difficult, but the more and more I put my mind to it, the better and better I felt to the point where, at the moment I'm in the best place mentally I think I've ever been. And that's down to me opening up and talking more. Because obviously I had counselling as well, but also through the CBT, to the point where I'd say, I think was it three, three years ago now, I was diagnosed with a form of leukaemia and what could have been the hardest 12 months of my life having chemotherapy. I wouldn't say it became a doddle because it wasn't a doddle, but it became a lot easier, and that was through, obviously, the techniques that I've picked up in the past. Because in the past I would've thought to myself, God, why me again? I've had these back problems, why me? And the reality is, loads of people go through chemotherapy, and loads of people survive it. I spun it in a total positive mindset from it. As I sit here now, I probably, I can be honest with you and say I enjoy what I do more now than what I did before when I ever played rugby, and I thought it was my dream to play rugby, where I'd say now I'm living it where I'm helping others and talking about my problems. Helen: Ian, thank you so much for sharing that with us, and I'm aware that there's some hard-hitting stuff in there. And I really appreciate how open you've been about sharing your story and for me hearing you tell us about that, you reached rock bottom and, sort of, you found something that kept you with us, which I'm really grateful for, and I'm sure the people who care about you are incredibly grateful that something stopped you from doing that, and hearing about how you had the right therapy and you faced more challenges again, that anybody would find incredibly difficult to manage but your approach to it, the way that you've dealt with it, has been more positive because of what you learned about maybe challenging some of the ways that you were thinking, learning different ways of approaching things.  And I wonder if I can ask you, I mean, I'm a CBT therapist and I know that it isn't just about positive thinking. I just wonder if you could tell us a bit more about how you and the person you were working with went about, I don't know, learning how to think about things differently. What happened there? Ian: Well, the best thing that helped me was doing a thought diary and, actually checking what I was thinking about and then changing it. That did really help me because the thoughts that I was coming up with at first, it just, as I wrote them down and when I came to the conclusions, it just wasn't rational. It just, why is everyone looking at me? Why do I think people are judging me? And, they weren't, but it's what was going on in my head. I was actually thinking that, so to be able to talk about this with my specialist and obviously writing things down, which I still have now, and I still look at them now and I still do write some diaries sometimes. So, that would be the mainstay of what helped me definitely. Helen: And I imagine after everything that you'd gone through up to that point, there must have been things about having the CBT that were also quite difficult. Can you tell us about the stuff that you perhaps didn't want to do or the stuff that sort of wish you hadn't had to do. Ian: Most definitely that would be the homework. Because I've had counselling beforehand and obviously that's face to face and just talking. But coming home and then doing it at home because like at the time, because obviously you're not in a positive mind space, I was hoping to get like an instant result, if that makes sense, like just to be able to go and see my specialist a couple of times and all of a sudden, I'll be okay. And it's just not that simple, you really do have to put the work in and a lot of it is homework and writing down your thoughts and then looking at them again and then thinking well, is that right? Am I thinking about that right way? Could there be another way of thinking about that? And at first, like I said, I struggled with it. I really did. It's like, God, I don't want to do this. But the more and more I did it, the more and more it really did help me. And that, so that would be the hardest thing I did, but also probably the best thing I did as well, because that really did help me change the way of thinking. Helen: So how did you get from whatever was happening there to getting involved with Phil here and getting involved with State of Mind Sport? Ian: Well that was a chance meeting, to be honest with you. I went to a grand final, that's, I say this about 9 or 10 years ago, watching a game of rugby and then I was about to get in the car, I saw a friend of mine, so I started talking to him and Phil was stood next to him. So as I'm talking to my friend, my wife started to talk to Phil and it turned out that Phil is a Warrington fan, I was an ex- Warrington player. So, I started to talk to Phil, and Phil had heard about my issues. So, he invited me to come along to a meeting that to the lads were putting on and then see if I fancied talking. At first, I went to the meeting, I thought the meeting was fantastic, it really opened my eyes but then obviously my first couple of talks I really struggled with because, opening up and talking about the problems, which I've never done before, it, it really did get to me. I'd become very emotional, I'd cry and then I'd come home, and I'd feel like an adrenaline dump and I feel shattered for a couple of days, it was really hard. But the more and more I did it, the better and better it felt to the point where I really look forward to doing them now. Helen: And that's for me, it's taken a lot of courage to do that. I mean, I'm hearing about you being at the top of your game, literally being a star in rugby, and the journey that you'd gone through to then start talking to people about what that had been really like for you. And I'm just wondering if I can come to Phil about what it was like then for you meeting Ian and getting him involved in all this? Phil: Oh man. Well, for me, see, I told you I love sport, you see? So I've watched Warrington all through my life. I'd seen Knotty play for points and loads of times. So I knew all about his playing career, that he kicks some fantastic goals. And he talks a little bit about that when he speaks as well around some of the thought processes around that. So for me it was great. To meet Danielle is, he's a good lady who, he rightly praised immensely earlier on was great because I was thinking, ah, I was thinking. I remember going to a match at Bradford once and at half time they had some former players who had injuries such as Ian. Ian was one of those players walking round. It was a Warrington against Bradford game, and I was thinking wouldn't it be great to get Knotty to speak? But obviously I didn't know him. I've never met him sort of thing. So to bump into his wife at the grand final, you can't miss an opportunity like that to ask, say well do you think he'd be interested in having a meeting? Because I don't know anything about him really other than that. And she was going oh man, he'd love to do that, he was saying that he didn't really have a focus, wasn't obviously, because he of injury, he wasn't working and stuff. So I was thinking, because I've taught alongside many people who lived the experience. I was just hoping, well I know he's got a good story because he used to play rugby. He's had a bad injury, so I'm assuming he will have found that difficult for all the things you said from the being at the top and then not being able to play. So yeah, it's great for me. So I'm a bit like a kid really. So when we did those first sessions many years ago for all those players, my excitement was getting a signed in sheet with all the autographs of the players. Now that's sad, but, and I still got them in me loft, so obviously meeting Knotty is great for me. I'm meeting heroes and being privileged and humbled by hearing Knotty's story. I've heard Ian speak many times in front of many audiences. And also finding it difficult when he first started. But now he can hold an audience very well. And as you heard, the power of the story that he tells. So, for me, he was great rugby league player, but he is also a great presenter. Now so for me that's fantastic. So I feel privileged to have met Knotty and been able to work alongside him really. Helen: Yeah, that's brilliant. So if somebody was coming to a mental fitness session, they might hear somebody tell their story like Ian's just told us. What else might they expect? Phil: Okay. So I suppose the way we plan it is, so thinking about blokes and how blokes respond to different health interventions or don't, should I say. So involving players was a crucial element. So obviously someone who's a former top player, like Knotty, talking about his vulnerabilities and also how he overcame those vulnerabilities, gives you a great buy-in and engagement from blokes in an audience. Because they're seeing a bloke who plays the sport, they play a really tough sport. But being able to talk about that is an immense, again, privilege and humbling experience for me. But also, we also try to entertain people. There's always a difficult balance, I guess, or a tricky balance. You don't want to make light of any subject, however, blokes like to have a laugh when they're in any situation, so you have to be aware of that and do that in an appropriate sort of way. Really trying to do it in a stigma free, so in a rugby club or a sports club, so a nonclinical environment usually will engage blokes more. So I think, I mentioned, a story when we first began in State of Mind when we had that round of fixtures, myself and, Jimmy, who Knotty knew at the Grand Final, was with me that day, before Knotty was involved. And we were just beside the ground. We had a free ticket. It was great. We had a marquee on the terrace. We'd only just started, people didn't know what State of Mind was. And this guy came up with this lady and said, I don't know what State of Mind is, but this is my friend and his son died recently and he's been talking about joining him on social media. So I had a chat with him about 15 minutes before the game kicked off, about support that was around in the local area or stuff that we could point into if he wanted to, so he just walks off. So I'm thinking, oh, right crikey, I hope that went okay. And then at the end of the game he came back and, on his own, but not with his friend this time. And he just said, oh, thanks for talking to me. Before, he said, this was going to be my last game of rugby league. I was going to take me on life tonight, but I don't think I will now. And then he buzzed off again. But I suppose that gave me the insight of, in places where blokes are and giving him some, an outlet maybe have a conversation. And that was a very simple conversation. And, but also something that obviously you do all the time as a therapist and when you are working in mental health. The great thing was we went back a couple of years later, same ground, different team playing against his local team. He came back with his, with his other son and his grandchild, or his grandson came up, gave me a massive hug and said, oh, I feeling emotional talking about this and he just said, oh, thank you so much for your time that day. He said. I don't know whether I'd still be here, I wouldn't be a granddad, that type of thing. And again, that just sort of ramps home the importance of Knotty telling his story. Just you've no idea who's going to hear that story and make a change based on that. Seeing someone else who can do something that's helped them, whether it's CBT or accessing support. Brilliant. And that's the point of doing what we do and that's what keeps us motivated to keep doing what we do. Yeah, so you'll have a laugh. It's in a stigma free location. Again, little sort of brief interventions that you do as well as part of that. So there's one about alcohol where we'll have a picture of Homer Simpson and I'll do a very brief alcohol screen for people, just four questions, yes or no. And then it's just getting people to think about a situation and then move it on. You don't have to do a therapy with them, you just get them to think a little bit. And hopefully that might make them think, maybe I do need some support here. And that's all perhaps you can do in a simple, in a particular session. But we had a couple of people who've, or students and stuff who've done like, research or dissertations around what we do, been to see some of the sessions and interviewed audience members afterwards, and they say the fact that the sessions are relatable. So you can be clinical, I could be clinical and be dull as anything for half an hour. However, when you are, when you mix clinical information and Knottys powerful story, you've got a bit of a winning combination in my experience. And that prompts people to change a little bit. And just as all therapists will know, their personal interaction with somebody on a one-to-one basis can have such an important influence on the outcome. Having those sort of positive role models in front of you in somewhere that you are very comfortable being and you're not on your own, there's loads of other blokes going, And then what great feedback we get from clubs is that, blokes are talking about it next week in training, job done. You've got people to actually talk about and think and then, so we've not been an embarrassing subject to talk about, but something that they can think on, maybe go and talk to other significant others, whether it's family or whichever friends, but raising the conversation to think like, yeah actually I can talk about this. and it's quite okay and normal to do so whatever normal is, and then you can apply this to playing rugby league or whatever sport you play, you get mentally fitter, and you'll play better and get better results. There you go. Simple really. Helen: Simple, maybe. Absolutely Phil, and maybe not always easy, but I'm really noticing that those sometimes brief conversations and being in situations where you are going to be somewhere anyway, and that message that it's okay to talk about it, and yeah there's some very heavy stuff in there sometimes, but also having a laugh with other people, while learning something about mental fitness is really positive. And again, I've already said this, but saving lives by doing something that brings that message in places where it's not always heard. And I know that, from what we were talking about before we started the recording, that you've expanded out beyond Rugby League. I'm not a rugby league player and honestly, it's a very long time since I went to see a rugby match of any kind. Tell us a bit more about how this message and this style of helping people to learn more about getting mentally fit, how's that spreading? How are you getting involved in wider things? Phil: Okay a couple of things really. Been over to Ireland and Northern Ireland. And State of Mind has an organization or a parallel organization there. In the National Ruby League, Australia and New Zealand and Papua New Guinea, they utilise State of Mind, as a means to deliver the same messages across communities in Australia. And the Australian Rugby League team who are currently playing in the Pacific Championships, they have State of Mind on their sleeves, which is like ridiculous really in terms of having conversations and reading a paper on a Monday morning. But I just think lots of other sports, it doesn't really matter what sport you play so, for example, currently we're doing a project with two open age football teams in a local economically deprived area where suicide rates are high. The council asked us if we could have some input. Me and Phil Vievers, another one of our presenters, a former rugby league player and head coach went to, speak to players. They dragged them away from training, so I can't believe that they came. So we had a room full of these lads and they told them about what we want to do, want to try and improve their mental fitness and their mental toughness to play football in the third division of the Warrington and District League. So we're not talking like Premier League game by any stretch, right? So last Saturday, Bold Miners FC, give a quick plug there, they won't believe that they're getting a plug in this location. However, played a local Derby against Redgate FC. Now this was potentially going to be a very feisty experience at this level of a local derby where lots of players knew each other, had moved from different, from each other's teams from time to time Anyway, so met with the coach, the manager before, the head coach before, and he said, oh, why don't you come in the dressing room and have a chat with the lads before. So I just told him a little bit more about what we wanted to do, we sent them a survey that they'd responded to, so they said 80% of them wanted to improve the mental fitness. And I found myself doing an impromptu controlled breathing session for five minutes in the dressing room, about 20 minutes before they went out to, to do their physical warmup before they played. So I'm here and they're all just sat there in a dressing room, in through the nose, out through the mouth, that type of thing, thinking, wow, this is surreal that I'm doing this. But they went out, won six nil. So then now they think I'm great, they're quite happy for me to come back and do more stuff with them, which is great, clearly has nothing to do with me. We thought they played really well. However, that's the potential that you can do. So that's about being in a place where you can do something specific. I sent them another survey, said, well, which bits of these elements of mental fitness do you want to focus on? Managing stress and anxiety, emotional control, well some of the players needed that, a bit of anger management as well, but that's another thing. But they were keen to sort of address it and, help them to be better footballers. But obviously I know that's going to also include, being able to better control stress and anxiety or refer people on. So they all have my email address now, so if anyone's struggling mental health wise, they can contact me, have a chat, and I can signpost them to whether it's NHS Talking Therapies or CBT therapy in different locations. Or mental health services like, Ian spoke about. And I think every time we've been in different sport, it doesn't matter where we've been, we've been to gay league football, hurling, rugby union, rugby league, cricket, football, it doesn't really matter where you are. It doesn't matter what gender, you might have a different emphasis for the women's teams that we address, but again, you can get into that location and hopefully make a difference. And that's the key, just as every therapist will do whenever they engage for that first one-to-one assessment and try and build that initial rapport. That's what it's about. It's a simple opportunity to do Helen: Thank you so much, Phil. I'm going to ask Ian, people out there listening, some of them may have quite a lot of familiarity with mental health or mental fitness, some might really not or be worried about engaging with it. If you had one key thing that you'd want everybody out there in the general public to know or to bear in mind, what would you say is most important from your point of view? Ian: No matter how small you think your problems are, because everyone goes through life, at some point you have issues, you have problems and so no matter how small your problems are you need to speak your about straight away, get them off your chest as soon as you can. Especially with men, because we tend to dwell on things and we don't want to talk about our problems, but it's the worst thing you can do because it's a vicious cycle and it just gets worse and worse. So for me. Definitely it'd be to talk about your problems as soon as you can. Like I said, it doesn't matter what your issues are. It could be money problems, relationship issues, it could be anything with school bullying or social media, anything like that. You need to get things off your chest as soon as you can. It's hard and it's very brave to talk about your problems, but for me, we need to get past the being brave, and it needs to be the norm that we can all talk about our problems, and we can all just speak to our friends, just open up and talk no matter what the issue is. So that would definitely be my main thing to, to get across is to open up and speak out and offload. Helen: That's an absolutely fantastic message, Ian. Thank you so much. And what we will do, alongside this episode is we'll put some links on the show page to make sure that people can find out more, link to the work that you are doing and other projects or other sources of help to make sure that, anyone listening who wants to find out more can do that. Phil, have you got any final thoughts that you would like everyone out there to know? Phil: Yeah, I suppose so. Thinking from a therapy point of view really, I think. so sometimes we're limited in where we're located, I guess, and thinking about a new 10-year plan from the labour government about health after the last 10 year plan about a few years ago. But ultimately, a prevention's going to be a big part of that, I think, and perhaps sometimes being able to adapt your practice maybe where you're located. For example, embracing different technologies like immersive technologies where you could do lots of different things to compliment the therapy work that you're doing. The other thing for me as well, again, sorry, I'll just plug this a little bit, but, Mind and Sport England nationally have a draft version that's going to be published next year, which is around safe and effective practice for organisations who provide physical activity, movement, or sports. So those people who work in those locations can feel comfortable enough or confident to signpost people, whether it's to NHS Talking Therapy, CBT, or wherever it is. So for us, it's, we are part of trying to endorse that and utilise all those principles within State of Mind and encourages many other physical organisations or charities or small organisation to try and reassure therapists about if you refer to state of mind or anywhere else, or a swimming group or a fishing group or whichever. But the people who are involved in those groups, are, look at this guidance and can, and feel comfortable and confident enough to refer people to. they're fantastic therapists that are around and, access that support. So if people are talking as Knotty mentioned, then, to get them to the right, the best place to try and find that, and therapy has a massively positive effect on so many people. So that'd be my thing. Just trying to adapt and think about how you deal with some of those things. Helen: And it really brings to mind for me that when you broaden it out to any kind of sport and activity and making sure that we are making things accessible to anybody from any background, I know that we've spoken mostly about, men in sports where perhaps traditionally the idea of being manly isn't to talk about your feelings and actually how much bravery and courage it takes, but how beneficial it is. But that really does apply across the board. I mean, you've mentioned it doesn't matter what gender and any other background that people come from, there will be a way of accessing the right kind of help. And the more that we can do to make things available in the communities where people actually go anyway, much more likely for people to be able to get the right help if they need support, sooner more geared to their particular needs. And I'm delighted to hear from you two because I mean, I'm a therapist and we talk quite a bit about men who don't talk about their feelings. And you two are a great example coming from, I don't know if I could use the word quite macho kind of sport, talking in such a way that's really showing that talking about it. However hard it is really worth it and can be done by people who might not normally do that. Ian, can I just ask you if there's anything else that you would like to say before we finish this episode, is there anything that you would like to share with our listeners? Ian: Yes, there is actually, it's no matter what therapy you kind of diagnosed to go down or what someone advises for you, to stick at it. Because I've had counselling a couple of times, obviously CBT, mindfulness, and for me, you've got to stick at it because I think every single one of them at one point, I thought, Oh my God, I don't want to do this anymore, this isn't working, but the more and more you do stick at it, the better it gets and it will help, 100%. That's my opinion anyway. I honestly think that no matter what the therapy is, if you put enough work into it, you'll get the help that you need. Helen: Thank you, Ian. Any final thoughts? Phil? Phil: Yeah, just to add to that really Knotty that, any therapist working with anyone who does any sport. If they've ever done any training, they'll know about repetition and trying to be as good at kicking a ball, passing a ball, whatever it might be. So to continue to that repetition of controlled breathing or mindfulness pays off. So as you say it's a good sort of way to encourage someone to continue when you put it in the terms of physical fitness and training. So it's exactly the same, just different ball games, so to speak. Helen: Ian and Phil, thank you so much. It's been a great opportunity to speak with you today. Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected], that's [email protected]. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.    

In this special episode celebrating World CBT Day 2025, we explore this year's theme: CBT: A Solid Return on Investment. Host Helen Macdonald, Senior Clinical Advisor at BABCP, is joined by a range of voices reflecting on the impact, value, and future of CBT. We hear from: Dr. Adrian Whittington, National Clinical Lead for Psychological Professions at NHS England, about the rollout and outcomes of NHS Talking Therapies. Dr. Stirling Moorey, BABCP President, on the historical development of CBT and its increasing relevance and recognition over the decades. Nic, a former CBT client, who shares how therapy helped him manage anxiety linked to a long-term health condition. Dr. Saiqa Naz, past president of BABCP, who discusses her personal journey into CBT and her commitment to inclusion, diversity, and working with underrepresented communities This episode offers a rich blend of lived experience, clinical insight, and future vision, showing how CBT continues to be a wise investment for individuals, services, and society as a whole. Further information and links: Visit BABCP to learn more about CBT Find support via NHS Talking Therapies Discover more about World CBT Day Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at [email protected] Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This podcast was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't.  I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. Welcome to this special episode of Let's Talk about CBT celebrating World CBT Day. World. CBT Day takes place every year on the 7th of April, and this year's theme is CBT: A Solid Return on Investment.  In this episode, we're exploring just what that means- I will be speaking with Adrian Whittington, who's the National Clinical Lead for Psychological Professions at NHS England and with Stirling Moorey, who's our current BABCP President about how CBT has developed over time and the importance of continued investment in it. We'll also hear a personal story from Nic, who is a former client of Stirling's, who shares how CBT helped him manage anxiety and improve his quality of life.  Finally, I sit down with Saiqa Naz who is past president of BABCP to talk about her journey into CBT from starting out in the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies services, to completing a clinical psychology doctorate, and how she embodies the idea of CBT being a real return on investment. We hope you enjoy this episode and the range of voices reflecting on the impact and value of CBT.  Let's get started! Here's my conversation with Adrian and Stirling…. Adrian, would you introduce yourself please? Adrian: Yes. Hi. I am Adrian Whittington. I'm National Clinical Lead for Psychological Professions at NHS England, which means within England I'm the professional lead for psychologists, psychological therapists, and psychological practitioners. Helen: Thank you, Stirling, please introduce yourself. Stirling: Hi, I'm Stirling Moorey. I am currently the president of the BABCP and I'm a retired psychiatrist and really have been around in the CBT world since 1979. So, Adrian is speaking about CBT today and in the UK particularly and I'll just give a bit of a view of what it's been like to be in the CBT world for this length of time. Helen: Thank you very much. And so Stirling, if we come to you first, that's a long career- you must have seen a lot of developments over the years. Tell us a bit about what you've seen and how things have developed. Stirling: Indeed, I mean, so right at the very beginning when I was a medical student, cognitive therapy was just being invented. And so we had BT, Behaviour Therapy, but not the CBT that we have today. And so it was quite sort of revolutionary. The behaviour therapists look down their nose a little bit at it, the psychoanalytic therapists very much looked down their nose, and I remember at one point talking to a psychoanalyst who told me that being a CBT therapist was a bit like playing a tin whistle compared to being a concert violinist. I think things have changed since then. So, over the years, what's happened is that really from the work of pioneers like Isaac Marks in behaviour therapy, Aaron Beck in cognitive therapy, for the first time psychotherapists started to actually address what evidence do we have that this works? And using randomised control trials. And this has been really powerful. It was revolutionary at the time because people thought you couldn't manualise therapy but Beck and others managed to do that. I think that's been the legacy of that, is that the services that are recognised to be really effective and are spread out across the UK that Adrian will talk about, have resulted from us gathering evidence that CBT works. The other thing that's happened is that really up until the early 2000s, we were using CBT in a lot of contexts in the UK, evidence accumulating that it was effective for anxiety disorders, depression, but other things like eating disorders, psychosis, long-term conditions, various things but they were all being delivered within a hodgepodge of services really. And I remember when the IAPT services that Adrian will be talking about, were about to be developed, my chief executive in my trust said this is amazing, it's like moving cognitive therapy from being a cottage industry into therapy mills as he called them. So, we have therapy mills across the UK, which are proving very effective in helping people with anxiety and depression. And it was that revolutionary input of David Clarke and Lord Layard who said, actually, we can work this out as a way to deliver therapy effectively and efficiently, not just in these services here and there, but across the whole country. So there's been so much change and now CBT is there for everyone. I suppose just finally thinking about what its impact in public consciousness has been, although people maybe have heard of it and maybe witnessed people who've received it, there've been some subtle changes, I think in our perspective on the world that have been influenced by CBT. I think people from the behavioural side now are recognising that a lot of our behaviour is learned in our everyday life. We have habits and people notice they have bad habits and go to podcasts to try and get them to rid them of their bad habits. And people are really aware of cognitive bias- it's there in the media all the time, that recognition that our thinking is not always that rational and straight, for good or ill. And then the third thing is there's a new wave of CBT that's come along that's called the third wave of CBT is really looking at how we can look in and just be aware and notice our thought processes. And so the whole field of mindfulness is very popular these days. So CBT, I think even if people aren't aware of what CBT is as a therapy, it has perfused our consciousness. Helen: Thank you very much, Stirling. That sounds like a whole symphony orchestra, not just a tin whistle from what you've been saying during your career. And thank you because that perspective of many years in the field and how things have developed, it leads us nicely to speaking with Adrian about, you mentioned IAPT, which stood for Improving Access to Psychological Therapies. I'm going to hand over to Adrian to ask him a bit about that project, how it came about and what happened. Adrian: Absolutely. Thanks Helen. Well, of course I'm a relative newcomer to the field having been trained as a psychologist 30 years ago and done my additional CBT training, I think 19 years ago, including under Stirling's tutelage as one of my training supervisors. So, it's great to join this session today with Stirling. So, NHS Talking Therapies as it is now was called Improving Access to Psychological Therapies is really something we're very proud of and feel as a sort of world leading program in implementing psychological therapies at scale. As Stirling's mentioned, David Clark and Lord Richard Layard were instrumental in founding the service and arguing successfully for its initial funding and have really been sort of fundamental to its success ever since. It's received investment every year, under every government since 2008 in the UK and it is just an England service so it's important to also remember there's other parts of the UK that don't have the same sort of service at the moment. It really makes a public promise, which is that it will deliver NICE guided psychological treatments. So NICE are our evidence-based, practice guidelines in, in the UK and, sort of established by independent panels of experts for each type of condition. So it makes a public promise, it will only deliver NICE recommended treatments, psychological treatments, that the therapists that deliver them will be fully trained and properly supervised and that it will publicly reveal its outcome data, anonymised, of course, but for the whole country so that we can see at a national scale, but also locally, how the service is performing, and the service can learn and the best performers can show what they're doing that's being so successful, to produce the best outcomes and other services can, can seek to learn from that and implement some of the same strategies. So we now have a sort of situation where for a number of years, the service has met its objective of 50% of those who coming into the service, are recovering completely from anxiety or depression and about two thirds, improving reliably, during the course of treatment. But it didn't start there, of course, in the early days of talking therapies, as it was then, we would be sort of more around the 30% recovery mark, and it really is through the sort of publication of outcomes and the ability of the service to learn and improve as it goes. That we've reached the 50% objective, and I think we can go further. I'll just mention something about the sort of return on investment point, 'cause I know that's the sort of important theme for today. The latest modelling that we have from London School of Economics shows that a course of talking therapies pays for itself within two years. So the benefits that are generated for the economy are such that within two years post-treatment, the course has paid for itself. We've also got some very exciting evidence coming out of other parts of the world, so there's a Norwegian study recently using, looking at service that is very close in, in sort of style and operation to NHS Talking Therapies that suggests that over a six year period, the benefits economically of investing in a course of talking therapies are fivefold. So in other words, the economy gets out five times more than it puts in over a six year period. So I think that the indications are very clear that the return on investment is there, and there's of course a lot further that we could go. There's a lot more that we could do and perhaps we'll have an opportunity to talk about that. Helen: Well, yes, and thank you Adrian. And what I heard you say there is not only is the CBT itself, and as Stirling was saying, the CBT itself is evidence-based, we know that it works. And what you've just been saying is about the way that we offer that to people, the way that people can have access to that is also important. It's not just that the therapy itself works, but the fact that we're measuring outcomes and working all the time to improve outcomes. So the whole system, not just the individual on the receiving end, is really important here. And I just wondered for people listening who are perhaps not familiar with sort of measuring outcomes and things, 50% doesn't sound like an awful lot- and you did say that we might be able to improve on that. I just wondered if you could say with treatment before we had CBT widely available in England and what kind of outcomes were people looking at or why is 50% good when we'd be kind of hoping for a hundred? Adrian: Of course, and of course we hope that every individual who uses the service will recover. But it's not always possible to achieve full recovery within a course of treatment. And this is of course true of physical health treatments as well. But what has happened through the innovation of NHS Talking Therapies is that we now know exactly what's being achieved. And we didn't in fact know this at scale before. So we knew through research trials, which are of course a slightly rarefied version of treatment as usual, where there are sort of very high quality aspects being sort of added in; the state-of-the-art supervision, making sure the therapists are fully compliant with the treatment being delivered as expected. And we know that in those trials it was possible to achieve upwards of 50% recovery rate. So, actually for depression. I think the more real world type of trials was around 50%, but we know it's possible to get much higher than that with some of the anxiety disorders, with some of the specific CBT treatments for those. So, I think we can go further. We thought 50% was pretty stretching, I think when the service was launched. And of course it's taken a while to get there, but we have now stabilised at 50 and so I think it is actually time to push on and see if we can push that further. Helen: And can I ask Stirling, do you have any thoughts about this? Stirling: Yeah, so sort of sharing again, my long, long in the tooth sort of view on this. So when I went to the Centre for Cognitive Therapy in 1979, they'd just published the first trial of CBT for depression. And, at that time, medication was the gold standard, and they were told there's no way in which you're going to be able to meet the level of recovery that we get with medication. But that level of recovery is only 50-60%, at the best. And of course that trial showed that it did, that the recovery rate was equivalent or if anything slightly better than the gold standard of medication. And so I think, it would be wonderful, wouldn't it, if we could get a hundred percent of people better. But, in the real world there are so many factors that will influence that. And even in the best designed clinical trials where you get the best medication delivery and adherence, or the best psychotherapy for depression, we're only talking as Adrian says, about 50 to 60%. So if we're getting something equivalent to that out there in the real world in the talking therapies, I think we're doing pretty well. Helen: And I think it's really important to hear that we are doing the best we can with what works and investing in treatments that really do make a difference, the best that we can do. So going on from there, Stirling, can I ask you how you see the future? I mean, how do you see things going forward and what would you like to see? Stirling: Well, I think, there's been this tremendous investment in talking therapies for common mental health conditions, which were in the past were sort of looked and that has, sort of, as Adrian was saying produced tremendous results. What we need is to be looking at evidence-based therapies in secondary mental health care where we know that, for instance, CBT for psychosis is a very helpful treatment alongside the usual drug treatment and support. And in eating disorders and, in various areas. So looking at how we might be able to bring in some of the lessons learned from the Talking Therapies program, so that these areas can have both greater investment, which I think is really important and a way of actually delivering evidence-based treatment and evaluating it. And I think there are some interesting developments that, again, Adrian may be able to talk about in that area. So I would like that to happen and the other thing is that for some disorders, CBT is very clearly the most effective treatment. For others, we have a range of evidence-based therapies, and I think that is what's quite nice about the Talking Therapies approach is it isn't limited to one. It's saying if something is effective and we can actually find a way of delivering it effectively, then that can be in the mix too. Helen: Thank you very much. Well, I think Stirling has invited you to talk about future developments there, Adrian, what are your thoughts? Adrian: Absolutely. Well, of course, the NHS talking therapy service for anxiety and depression mustn't stand still. So, it's currently seeing about 670,000 patients per year. We know though that's only actually a very small proportion of people who experience anxiety and depression. So there's a lot further we can go on reaching people who could benefit, and that's really important that we continue to do that. And the service also, despite its huge success isn't perfect. We know that there's wait times that are longer than we would like for people to start treatment. So although, people are sort of reaching the sort of assessment point pretty rapidly and having that first contact pretty rapidly, there can be waits that are longer than we would like for treatment to start. So, for that reason, we've been successful in securing additional investment in the service over the next five years that will help us reach more people and reach them faster. And it will do that particularly by increasing the number of high intensity therapists in the service, so those are the people delivering psychotherapy rather than the guided self-help, including CBT therapists. So that's a really important investment that we want to see through, to maximise the benefits, seeing more people for treatment and enhancing as well our recovery rates. We think we can get the recovery rates up. But as Stirling said, there's obviously a whole lot of other potential groups who could benefit from talking therapies or psychological therapies that currently don't often receive a service. And we just wouldn't accept this in other areas of medicine, that, in cancer care, you wouldn't accept that radiotherapy isn't available and so people will just have to make do with chemotherapy. In this case, there's a very clear moral argument for us rolling out the success of psychological therapies to those other conditions, so psychosis, bipolar disorder, experiences that are sometimes classified as personality disorder, eating disorders, key examples. And we do have ambitions to further rollout access to those therapies for those conditions. We've done quite a lot over the last few years to train additional therapists in existing services, but we know that the method of delivery there is a bit challenging because there's so much other pressure on those services so it's hard for people to protect time just to deliver therapies. So really in the next phase of this, what we would like to see is, services that whose main focus is delivering the therapy, working very closely with hand in hand with sort of more traditional community mental health services because of course, for these groups, it might be necessary in many cases for there to be a sort of multidisciplinary approach, other team members involved. It will be a bit different to the talking therapies approach for anxiety and depression. So we're very keen to push that forward and we're working to sort of further the cause of that additional investment. We're not quite there yet. Helen: Thank you, and it must be really heartening for people listening to hear that the intention is to make sure that as many people as possible who can benefit from those treatments that work are going to have access to it. You did just mention there that services are under pressure and it does make me think that we talk sometimes you, you hear things in the media about services being under a lot of pressure. Is there anything that we can say from a CBT perspective about, looking after the staff or, anything else that we can do to make sure that the people delivering the services do as well as they can. Adrian: Well, I suppose, it may seem obvious, but sometimes we forget that unless you have well staff, you can't have staff who can truly help patients. And so it is really important that we get this right and that we make sure that there's a sort of, psychologically safe environment within which teams are working. And of course that doesn't mean stress-free environment, but it does mean an environment where the sort of inevitable pressure is dealt with in a constructive way. People are able to speak up to improve things, et cetera. And that's the sense in which I mean psychological safety. It's teams where people can work constructively together, even when the going gets tough. Helen: Thank you. I don't know if you've got anything to add about that. Stirling, I know that staff wellbeing is a subject dear to your heart. Stirling: Yes, indeed. I mean, it's one of the things that I want if, if a president of the BABCP can make any difference at all. it's, the hope is that perhaps, we can start to look at staff wellbeing, and maybe on, on a number of levels, that sometimes the attention to burnout has been focused very much on the individual and making them more resilient. And that's important. But we know that actually the factors that are perhaps more important in burnout are more systemic, they're more things to do with the pressure of face-to-face and the system, the service in which the person's working. So I'd really be keen to start looking at what services do that job well, where are the ones where that retain their staff, where staff are satisfied, where they feel able, as Adrian says, to speak up and how do we roll that out? How do we make services that perhaps are not doing quite so well aware of that, because it has a knock on effect everywhere. And particularly the key thing is as you say, if you don't have well therapists, then they can't be so helpful to their patients. Helen: Thank you. and I know that we haven't necessarily mentioned this overtly while we've been speaking, but my understanding is that services that make sure they're really paying attention to things like diversity in their staff team and making sure that they properly promote access for people from all sorts of different backgrounds are likely to do better. And I don't know if you wanted to say anything specifically about that. Adrian: Yeah, I mean, it's a really important point, that you raise about dealing appropriately with equality, diversity, and inclusion, and it's something that we know from the data and talking therapies, where we've got further to go. I think. ofcourse, we want to achieve and offer the same sorts of outcomes for people of all backgrounds, and all different protected characteristics who make use of the service. That hasn't always been the case and it still isn't always the case. And so that needs to change. We need that to be a sort of relentless focus. And I think actually, having, some staff teams where everyone feels welcome, included and free from harassment and bullying is vitally important to creating those outcomes for patients. But I suppose one thing that I do want to reflect on is that through the sort of gathering and publication of data, we've been able to do exactly what was referring to earlier in this sort of domain, which is learn from the services that are doing really a lot better with diversity and try to spread that learning. And, we still see disparities and we want to iron those out. But the fact that you see disparities and that some services are able to achieve just as good results or better results, for example, working with ethnic minority patients compared to white patients, suggests that is possible and we need to find out what they're doing and make sure that learning spreads. And that's what we've been trying to do. And sort of, if you look at this data at national scale, we have seen really significant improvements in that sort of equality of outcome, but a lot further to go and still some really troubling hotspots where we would like to iron out inequalities. Stirling: I agree. We've got a long way to go. I suppose from my perspective, having been teaching since the 1980s, what's changed is in the faces that I see in front of me in our CBT courses, is they're no longer exclusively white middle class people. And I think that the talking therapies initiative has really worked very hard to make the workforce more diverse. And I see that in the people that I'm teaching, but we still have a long way to go, particularly in serving diverse communities. Helen: Well, it's been really interesting to speak with you both about this and some really interesting developments over the years and interesting views of what's going to happen in the future and exciting things that are going to happen in the future. Just wondered whether you have a key message that you would like people to hear or, one specific experience that highlights that theme about CBT being a solid return on investment. I'm going to ask Adrian first and then go to Stirling. So what are your thoughts, Adrian? Adrian: I mean, in terms of a key experience, the key experience that I've had is working in the services and seeing people recover and lives be transformed. And that's actually the return on investment that's most important. But if I have one message that's more to those who might be decision makers, in governments for example, it would be investing in talking therapy through a range of different conditions, helps to grow your economy and it reduces use of other healthcare services. Helen: Thank you very much, Adrian. Stirling? Stirling: I'd echo that. Really, that's exactly what I was going to say. That CBT can be helpful both on the very much the personal level, which is what's the most important thing, but also economically, there's an argument there. I think just backing that up, so we want to speak to people who might be funding these services in the UK or elsewhere, but also, I think I'd like to maybe speak to some of those people who haven't had CBT or have heard certain things about it. There are a lot of myths about this approach, that it's sort of ultra rational, that it doesn't address feelings, all sorts of things. And I hope that, we've started today perhaps a bit of a conversation about how it can be more, it is more, nuanced than that. And it's about, like any talking therapy, helping real people. And I'll be interviewing a client who's received some CBT who will speak from that very personal viewpoint, how it can change lives and maybe a good return on investment. Helen: Thank you very much. I'm really grateful to you both and we'll put some links to more information, in the show notes that go with this recording but it just leaves it with me to say thank you very much indeed, Adrian, and thank you Stirling. Really appreciate you speaking with me today.  Coming up now, Stirling is speaking with a former client, Nic Stirling: Hello, I'm Stirling Moorey. I'm president of BABCP and a cognitive behaviour therapist and on world CBT Day where we're thinking about CBT as a good return on investment, the most important aspect of all of this is the clinical impact is what this does to help people who are coming to terms with problems in all sorts of areas of life. And I'm very pleased today to have with me a client who I've worked with, Nic Allen, who's going to tell us a little bit about his experience of CBT. So welcome Nick. Nic: Hi there. Thank you. Stirling: Hi. so maybe if we kick off by you telling us a little bit about what brought you to consider having a course of therapy and why CBT. Nic: Yeah. So, I think my experience with anxiety related conditions had been going on for a couple of years. And initially I don't think I was entirely aware that I was suffering from an anxiety related condition. So to provide a little bit of background on myself, I. I have a, inherited heart condition, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, which has led to like a few lifestyle changes with my life, but generally I've been fit and healthy. And in my early thirties I started to experience some kind of changes in symptoms in my general life, which I think in hindsight probably were related to anxiety more so than anything else. They culminated in panic attacks, so kind of sporadic panic attacks, but several, like a year, maybe once every few months, as well as some kind of baseline anxiety that I was living with day to day. And ultimately what it was that led me to seeking help for CBT was, I tried a couple of different things, I'd gone down the route of speaking to cardiologists and assuming that maybe some of my symptoms were cardiac related. I tried a few kind of like mindfulness type things but ultimately it got to the point where the anxiety was getting in the way of my everyday life. So it was getting in the way of being able to do certain kind of like medical procedures to look after myself and just generally getting in the way of things like holidays and work and things like that. And then via recommendation from a family friend, got in touch with yourself and then, yeah, took it from there. Stirling: Yeah. Thank you. And so the anxiety was beginning to have quite an impact on your everyday life. Was it? Nic: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it wasn't entirely clear at the time, and I think in hindsight it's become more clear how much that was having an impact. So it was, the interplay between the anxiety and living with a heart condition meant that, I think I was hypersensitive to any kind of symptoms of physical discomfort, which meant that I was living quite like a limited life. So anytime I felt vulnerable or fragile, whether it's cardiac related or not, I was changing my lifestyle. I was not going out, I was not leaving the house, I was not traveling on certain forms of transport or going to busy places, it was really going in the way of everyday life. And then, yeah, the worst-case scenarios were panic attacks, which meant things like having to leave restaurants in the middle of a meal, all sorts of things like that. Stirling: So in addition to the panics, your life was sort of understandably becoming more restrictive because if you're fearful that there might be something seriously wrong with your heart, it makes sense not to take risks really. Nic: Yeah, absolutely. And there was also the kind of, the interplay with physical symptoms of anxiety. So, specifically for myself, I think I felt, kind of impacts on digestion and specifically indigestion and heartburn. And obviously the interplay between the feeling of heartburn and a discomfort in my chest and having a heart condition meant that I was quickly getting into these kind of, these like vicious cycles where it was self-perpetuating. And that was both unpleasant in the immediate term, the physical sensations, but also help to like perpetuate the anxiety. Stirling: So you've begun to talk a little bit about how perhaps a cognitive behavioural model helped you to understand what was going on. So maybe if we move on to what happened in, in treatment and, maybe starting with what in CBT we call the formulation, which is finding a way of making sense of people's symptoms. So tell us a little bit more about what you learned there. Nic: Yeah, this was really interesting. This was one of the first things we did together and was one of the kind of first tangible resources I had to help process these thoughts. The formulation, I guess for anyone who's not familiar, and my experience of it was a diagram which sketched out my thoughts. So thoughts that would go through my my brain when I was feeling anxious, the physical sensations that I would then experience as a result of this. So that would be things like heart racing and sweaty palms. Linking that back to a trigger which would trigger all of these things. And then the safety behaviours that I would take when I experience these thoughts and it's kind of hard to visualise, but all of these are connected with different areas indicating how they interact with each other. And I think having this formulation, something that I could look at, visualise, memorise, started to help me make sense of what was going on when I was experiencing these things because, prior to that, it was very hard to get my head around it. I didn't understand the theory, but what I could understand was something was definitely wrong because I was feeling physical symptoms and I was feeling discomfort and pain and fear to the point where in these worst moments, it felt life threatening. It felt like I was about to collapse and die. So to not be able to understand where that's coming from and how all of these things interact with each other meant that I found it very hard to process, and the formulation was the first step towards being able to process this. Stirling: Yeah. Yeah. Great. And help to guide us a little bit in the work we did together. Yeah. So what were the things that you found most helpful about the therapy? Nic: Where to begin and so many things. Honestly, I don't know where to begin because take taking a step back, it's been absolutely life changing. It's helped me process these kind of experiences and these, these feelings and basically the mental health issues. I was struggling in a way that I didn't think was possible, I thought it was something that I was probably stuck with or it was just a side effect of life. So at a high level, it's been huge. I think if we want to talk specifics, maybe going from like early on that even the formulation. Initially that started to explain how I could be getting physical symptoms like a racing heart, and then those symptoms potentially not being cardiac related, they're not being related to having hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, potentially they're related to anxiety. And trying to understand like how that all works together, where the anxiety might come from, it started to give me almost a path to understand that, ah, maybe this isn't just, I've got this inherited heart condition which means I'm destined to be ill for the rest of my life. And then, yeah, it's almost like by beginning to understand what might be going wrong, that then I felt empowered to be able to tackle it and tackle it together with yourself. Stirling: Great. And you've mentioned this idea of safety behaviours, which is things that we do when we're anxious to try and keep ourselves safe in various ways. So it'd be interesting to unpack those a little bit. We mentioned earlier how your life was getting more restricted and you were avoiding certain things. we did some experiments to overcome some of that avoidance, didn't we? How did, how did that play out? Nic: Yeah, this was a really interesting part of CBT for me to learn, I guess, both for the process and then actually try it out myself, the concept of experiments and it was really powerful for me. So some of the safety behaviours, just to list a couple of ones, were things like holding my partner's hand, seeking reassurance from even my partner or phoning my sister, potentially doing like little things like drinking a sugary drink or something like that. All of these things, which I thought in the moment were things that were keeping me safe and helping me. And I think by working through CBT with yourself, Stirling we were able to, I guess, like rationally analyse whether they actually were keeping me safe, was holding my partner's hand going to prevent me from having a cardiac arrest and rationally, obviously it is not going to. So by understanding that it gave me a chance to process what I was doing, and then that allowed us to formulate these experiments which we could run. So when I was feeling anxious, when I was potentially getting into a situation where these safety behaviours would appeal to me, I could proactively test not doing the safety behaviour, which was a little scary to begin with but I was able to do it, especially in a kind of gradual way. And then we could see the results and see whether anything got better or worse and see whether the safety behaviours were actually helping. And, unsurprisingly, they weren't helping. But it was one thing to know, it is another thing to prove it to myself via experiments. Stirling: Yeah, absolutely. And, you've mentioned also how it's tricky when you have a physical condition to disentangle some of the sensations that you're getting from what might be anxiety related or might be normal sensations. Would you tell us a little bit more about how you managed to do that over the course of the therapy? Nic: Yeah, this was really interesting, and this is something that early on in the therapy I was worried I wouldn't be able to get kind of conclusive evidence on like, how would I ever know something isn't my heart condition? How would I know it definitely is anxiety? And I think a couple of things. I think we established that one- I may never get a hundred percent certainty on this stuff that I will have to live with some element of uncertainty, but that's also true for almost everybody, if not everyone, so that became easier to accept. The other was just observations of these experiments, both kind of proactive experiments and kind of accidental natural experiments. So if ever I was in a situation where either I deliberately avoided the safety behaviour and then saw that the physical sensations of say heart racing, hands getting sweaty, didn't happen. That's more evidence for the fact that there probably was an anxiety spiral that was what was causing a or panic spiral that was what was causing the symptoms. And I think by building up this bank of evidence, I guess a natural experiment would be an example of where potentially I was in an anxiety inducing situation, but didn't realise it. I was distracted by something, something unusual had happened and I was distracted by something in the background, a TV being on in a situation when typically I would get anxious and then realising afterwards, oh, that was unusual. Like typically I would've got anxious there, but because I was watching TV I didn't get anxious, which again is more great evidence for the fact that it's probably not a heart condition, because a heart condition wouldn't respond to that. It probably is an anxiety condition that is causing this stuff. And yeah, by building this bank of evidence week on week, it just got to the point where it just made sense that it was anxiety and I was not able even to convince myself. I just truly believed that it was that, and then almost because I believed that, it became easier to keep testing it and keep pushing the envelope further and further with more difficult experiments to the point where it felt almost like I was training myself. It was almost like going to the gym, but for my mind, kind of building up this resilience to these situations. And the stronger I got the more I reinforced that those conditions pro the root of it probably was anxiety. Stirling: One of the things that you mentioned, a little bit earlier was. getting reassurance from your partner and and so on. And, it might be helpful to people who are perhaps partners and friends of people with anxiety problems who are going through CBT to hear a bit about how she helped. Nic: Yeah, absolutely. So, my partner Isabel has been incredibly helpful throughout all of this, both in terms of encouraging me to get help and also supporting me when we're doing this. In terms of what maybe potentially advice to people who are in similar situations. One I would suggest, if you are taking course of CBT, inviting your partner along to come to a session. So we did a session together myself, Isabel, and Stirling, that was incredibly useful. In terms of kind of small, practical tips that help for me, I think, an important step forward was when Isabel and I discussed the, I guess, what to do in a situation where anxiety is setting in. So that would be I think prior to this, whilst I would give into safety behaviours, people around me would also give into safety behaviours and it almost like facilitate these safety behaviours. So Isabelle would be holding my hand and would be reassuring me. Whereas once we've established this formulation and I've shared that with her, she was able to tell me, kind of coach me through it. So say like, okay, if an anxiety situation is arising, then to lean into the anxiety, remember what we've discussed in therapy, try and like ride out the wave of it, remember that it will pass. But also be reassuring in a kind of, in a useful way, which would be something along the lines of acknowledging the situation is real, acknowledging that it is this, it is uncomfortable, but that you can handle it and work your way through it rather than, so instead of it being a safety behaviour, kind of being a bit more of a coach. Stirling: Great. Thank you so much for sharing those experiences and talking about them so clearly. Anything else that you'd like to say and particularly anything that you would say to people who might be considering whether CBT would be helpful for them? Nic: Yeah, I think. I think for me, I was probably sceptical before starting this whole process, and then I'd say midway through, I'd say it was possibly after four sessions, there was, it felt like there was a big breakthrough and suddenly things started to get so much better. And towards the end of the sessions I was, I completely changed my opinion, almost to the point that I started to feel like we should be teaching this in schools, some of these skills. I felt like it was something that I just wish I'd known years ago. In terms of like my decision to do it, that decisions I made when I filled out the initial form to get in touch. I think honestly it was one of the best decisions I made in my life, particularly when it comes to like return on investment for it. So in terms of things I've done for myself, that was probably the most impactful thing that I've ever spent money on. I was fortunate to get some support from my workplace, I know it can be expensive, or it can seem expensive. The way I was trying to think about it, it was comparing it to save the price of something like a holiday and maybe having to kind of forgo a particular holiday and instead do this. And in terms of like return on what I've got from that, this has changed my life more so than a holiday would. I do still enjoy going on holiday, of course. Stirling: Yeah. Thank you. And just to say to people that the other part of this podcast, we were talking about CBT available on the NHS and the Talking Therapy Services are also there to provide help with anxiety disorders and depression. So thanks very much indeed, Nick. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing your experiences today. Nic: No. Thank you so much for having me. Helen:  And coming up now I'm speaking with Saiqa Naz, who is past president of BABCP Helen: Saiqa, would you like to introduce yourself? Saiqa: Hello, I am Saiqa Naz. I am past president of BABCP, so I was president until November 2024. I'm a clinical psychologist and also a CBT therapist and I work in a learning disabilities service. Helen: Thank you, and one of the reasons why I said you were a solid return on investment is that you were part of a big government project in England, which involved investing very heavily in CBT in what was called the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies Project, which is now called NHS Talking therapies for anxiety and depression. Can you tell us a bit about your personal journey as part of that? Saiqa: Yeah, so I actually studied in Sheffield, completed my undergraduate, and then I went back to Rochdale, which is my hometown. Beautiful Rochdale, a small town north of Manchester for those people who have not heard. But I struggled. I struggled to find any paid work related to psychology. I struggled to find voluntary work related to psychology, and the transport links were not that great which meant I couldn't leave, come and go, quite easily. So I was in this small town struggling to find any form of experience, and eventually found a little job as a support worker and then I had another job to, to earn a bit more income. So yeah, I was doing like two jobs concurrently. And then the IAPT initiative came along and I was offered a job as a low intensity practitioner or a psychological wellbeing practitioner and then I moved back to Sheffield. So that's how I came into the NHS. Helen: Okay, so perhaps if you say a little bit more about what training as a psychological well wellbeing practitioner did for you, and then a bit more about your career after that, cause you're not still working in that role. Saiqa: No, I'm not working in that role, but I'm still using those interventions. I think everybody should learn those interventions, if I'm honest with you. And I think that role gave me a nice introduction to the NHS supervision, you know, learning difference between clinical supervision and line management supervision. I was quite heavily involved in developing groups, the stress, delivering stress management course or managing lower mood. So I really developed my skillset in a range of ways, you know, one-to-one therapy, group therapy, did supervision, developing projects, started to do more outreach work around ethnic minority communities, started to do a bit of thinking around those groups. And that work still stays with me, I don't think I've ever really left it behind. Helen: So even at that early stage in your career in the NHS, you were thinking about the value of developing yourself as a diverse individual, if you'll forgive me saying so. And we know that was one of the things that the IAPT Project bought, brought in was a more diverse workforce, which perhaps intending to be more representative the communities that people come from. Saiqa: Absolutely. And so many years later it still is representative of the communities. And I think that is the beauty of the initiative is that I wasn't an afterthought- thanks David and Lord Layard. But I think when they were thinking about it, they obviously thought about us in their thinking in those early stages. And actually when I applied for the job, I can't remember exactly what it said, but it did allude to having knowledge of a different community or knowing a different language. And actually part of my interview was in Urdu at that time 'cause I was tested and I don't think we see that. I think some of that has been lost somewhere actually 'cause those early days where the money was there, the thinking was there, the will was there we've managed to produce a quite a diverse workforce. Helen: Okay. and that's one of the things that I'm hearing from what you're saying is that you, your particular skills and your own background were particularly valuable and the investment of resources in training people from different backgrounds and who are really embedded in the communities that they served was genuine in enhancing and enriching what we could offer. And being taught CBT skills, which are evidence-based and most likely to help people with the common mental health problems that you were working with in that role. What about when you then went on to do further training? Because you haven't really stopped. Tell us more. Saiqa: No. Then I went on to do my CBT training. I did that in Manchester and actually moved back to my hometown. And, I felt like I was giving back to my communities and that not just people who looked like me, I think just the town as a whole. There's some quite deprived areas, so there's four boroughs, and I had a day in each of those boroughs, so I felt like I was learning about the town, but I was also able to give back to the town. So I'm quite passionate about it. Yeah, it was tricky getting those videos in to pass. I had one attempt left and my friend said, you know, jump through the hoops. I took a generalized anxiety disorder and PTSD as my training cases and my supervisor John Storey is looking at me. He said, you're spinning a lot of plates Saiqa. And I said, oh, that's because I'm comfortable with depression and so I thought I'll bring something different in. And then when it came to doing the videos, it was, I took some really tough cases in, and they weren't quite meeting the criteria of passing the videos. And I had one attempt left, or I may never been sat here talking to you, Helen, but managed to get through. Helen: And I think you'll be really speaking to the experience of some of the CBT therapists that are sitting here listening to what you're saying. The challenge of doing the CBT training can be one of the most difficult things that people attempt. So given that you did succeed, and here you are sitting talking with me, is there anything that you would say really helped you to get through those challenges that really did I don't know, improve your access as a clinician to being able to provide this service. Saiqa: Yeah, I think while I was training, there was a group of us and maybe called the Specials because we'd meet for breakfast in the coffee shop, get there a bit early, and then we'd always be the ones that submitting our work just on the deadline or do the night before? Yeah, the all-nighters. So we were the little group Helen: The last-minute deadline group. Saiqa: The last minute deadline group, absolutely. So we did the training, but we ended up forming this lifelong sisterhood of friendship, which I really value, and they're really important and really big part of my support network. I think even continuing my journey. So you get a lot from the training that I think is really valuable and the camaraderie because everyone's going, oh, I'm going to fail if I get thrown off, if I don't pass this video, or I'm not meeting the CTSR… Helen: So what I'm hearing is that actually you invest a lot of yourself in the training but it's worth it. And those connections with the other people who are in the same boat really helps to get you through. Saiqa: Absolutely. And you know, you're more confident as a clinician when you come through because people have been watching your videos. You have to quickly get over then, oh, that angle on my face doesn't look right, and why did I do that? Oh, why was that looking, you know, why did I pull that face? You just need to get over those anxieties if you want to get through it. That's what I'll say to anybody who's in on the course now or thinking about it. And, but as a consequence, because lots of people have had to look at your work and input it into it, and you can refine your skills. I think when you do have those stats later on, you can say, it's not just coming from me, people have looked at my work and actually, it's okay. It's not that bad. Helen: Yeah, and actually everybody else other than you as the trainee on the camera, my experience is that actually focusing on the client is what gets you through that and trying not to focus too much on whether you've got the right angle or whether your hair looks funny in that outfit. Saiqa: And am I good enough to be here? Do you know if you're from an underrepresented group, the imposter does come with you. I think you don't lose it. It's there and you don't want to reveal yourself, but. I don't, maybe it's, as I'm getting older, I'm like, yeah, this is just who I'm am. Helen: I do think it's really important though to acknowledge that the training is hugely demanding, and then if you do come from a minoritised group, you've got additional challenges, and often intersectional challenges. However, you're sitting here talking to me and your career advanced even further after being qualified as a CBT therapist. Tell me what made you decide to train in another profession, even though you were already fully qualified and experienced as a CBT therapist. Saiqa: Yeah, it's a good question. I think when I first started, when I was doing my undergraduate, I wasn't so aware of CBT and I think we probably could get better at bringing CBT into colleges and undergraduate courses because when I was thinking what am I going to do with my degree, CBT I don't think came up in my research. But then I was on the CBT path because that was the opportunity given to me and I went on the CBT path but I think part of it was, I was aware that it has its limitations. So I'm working people with complex trauma, with interpersonal difficulties and I think I was thinking, oh, then other ways of working with people apart from CBT and maybe I just need to have the humility to go okay, park the CBT for a while, do the training. But I also wanted the training to give me opportunities and open the other doors that, again, traditional CBT therapists are not provided with around leadership or managing services. So I think I was thinking longer term career, it'll give me opportunities, but I wanted to do research as well. So there's multiple reasons why I did it, but I have to say, every single service I went to in placement, there was some form of CBT there. And I've come out of that training even bigger fan of CBT if I'm honest with you, I'm like, yeah, evidence based. Okay, what are we doing? Not what am I doing, what's the evidence saying that we should be doing for this person? So that level of humility, I think that approach brings is really important. Helen: Yeah. Thank you. So I know that you work clinically now with people who have learning disabilities. Can you tell us, it's one of the areas that we hear about perhaps a bit less in CBT sometimes. Can you tell us a bit about investing in working with people who do have learning disabilities? Saiqa: Oh, you know, I'm quite big on inclusion and equality and interrogating systems that exclude people. I think I can't keep my mouth shut. But I think as clinicians, it's all of our responsibilities and roles and when we notice who's not in the room, that we then speak. I went to learning disabilities and I've been shocked at the level of underinvestment. And to me, it almost feels like they're the forgotten group. If I'm honest, like I think nationally they've been overlooked and forgotten. And also in our services, you know, some people who have let's call it milder learning disabilities, can access mainstream services. We've got to make room for those people, you know? So I think, I'm trying to think about adapting CBT in that context. And that's what I'm focusing on at the moment is, but again, you know, not digressing too much because don't want to do too much of a drift. And it's not CBT. But what I really want us to do as a workforce is really think collectively about people with learning difficulties and also learning disabilities because they're not in the room. They don't have the social care in place or the care needs in place to enable them to access conferences or sit at tables. So I think we need to be advocates for them and then create space and room for them to come and sit with us. Helen: Thank you. So I'm hearing that you are absolutely a living example of CBT being a solid return in investment in terms of just your own journey through your career and how you've invested of yourself and you've been able to take advantage of the investment in training in CBT but also your own focus on inclusion, making sure that we are more representative, that we do more to make sure that underrepresented groups do genuinely have that access and the opportunity to have better evidence-based interventions to help improve quality of life and so on. Is it too much to ask you where you see yourself in five years' time? Saiqa: Oh gosh, sat on the beach, like retired. No, I think, do you know when we talk about being a solid return on investment, a lot of this inclusion work, Helen, it's been done outside in our own time, you know, evenings, weekends, annual leave, holidays my family going what you doing Saiqa, we are at the airport! You know. Right. And I think what really want to see is some of this work embedded into systems, infrastructure because ultimately it's still a nine to five job, isn't it? And I hold their inclusion values. Yeah. I'm trying to convince myself it's a nine to five job but yeah, I think I'll still be involved somehow. I think maybe a little bit more around research because again, people like myself are actually, I don't know, somebody from my background in leading projects and research, to be fair know millions of pounds are invested, Actually, maybe that's where I might be in research and hold onto my clinical work. Yeah. Helen: Saiqa, thank you so much for talking with me today. It's an absolute pleasure to be speaking with you. Saiqa: Thanks for having me, Helen.      

In this episode of Let's Talk About CBT, Helen Macdonald speaks with James from the charity Gambling with Lives about the serious impact of gambling addiction, its links to mental health, and the role of CBT in recovery. What We Cover in This Episode: 🔹 How gambling has changed – From a backstreet niche to an industry making billions through addictive products. 🔹 Gambling addiction and mental health – How gambling harms go beyond financial loss and can lead to depression, anxiety, and even suicide. 🔹 The neuroscience of gambling – How gambling rewires the brain, making it difficult to stop. 🔹 Recognising the warning signs – What to look for in yourself or a loved one. 🔹 The role of CBT in recovery – How cognitive behavioural therapy is a key treatment approach in NHS gambling addiction services. 🔹 Breaking the stigma – Why gambling addiction is not just about personal responsibility and we need to talk about how it can harm people and the amount of gambling advertising that is out there. 🔹 Getting help – Resources for those affected, including training for healthcare professionals. Resources & Links: Find out more about Gambling with Lives: gamblingwithlives.org Visit Chapter One for training and resources: chapter-one.org NHS gambling support services: NHS gambling support If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at [email protected] Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was edited by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't.  I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies   Welcome to today's episode. I'm really pleased to have James with me today. He's from an organisation called Gambling with Lives, and I will ask him first to introduce himself. Hello, James. James: Hi Helen, thank you for having me on. I'm James. I live in Stockport, originally from Norfolk, hence I haven't got a Northern accent, but I'm here today representing the charity Gambling with Lives. The charity was set up by bereaved families who'd lost loved ones to gambling related suicide and I now oversee our prevention work, which includes education, training, information, and resources. And a lot of that stems from my own lived experience of a 12-year gambling addiction, which started as a young person, and which I'm sure we'll touch on today. Helen: Thank you, James. And so I'm very aware that a charity that's been very much grounded in the experiences of bereaved families, there's going to be some difficult things to talk about here. And just to say for our listeners, there will be links to where to find help and support on the show page and as well as anything that we talk about during today's episode. So can I ask you just to tell us a little bit more about gambling? What is it? You know, how people might get themselves into trouble with it, maybe? James: Yeah, it's a big question. And the first answer that comes to my head is that gambling is not what it was. I think a lot of people have a perception of what gambling is, and that's a weekly bet at the horses or going to the bingo on a Thursday night, or the football pools. Gambling has absolutely transformed over the last 10, 20, 30 years. And it all really started from a point in 2005 when the Gambling Act was created by the Labour government at the time, which changed gambling from being this thing that was, you know, quite hidden, quite behind closed doors, wasn't promoted, was quite hard to go and do, wasn't that easy or available or accessible, and that Gambling Act changed that completely and allowed for relentless advertising, sponsorship, marketing, and allowed for bookmakers in the high street to have really addictive electronic machines in their premises. And they were things like the fixed odds betting terminals, which were roulette machines, which at the time were called the crack cocaine of gambling because they were that addictive. And that was not what gambling was. I remember when I was a child, in our town, I'm from a quite a sleepy, small town in Norfolk. And the bookies in our town used to be this like really dingy, horrible place to be honest behind in a back alley that I used to walk past it and think I'm never going in there, that is a place not for me. It's for old men, smoke coming out the doors, did not have any interest in that. But then when I was 16, which was a couple of years after this Gambling Act, it changed into a massive Ladbrokes in the middle of the high street, you could see through there, you could see the machines and you could see all the advertised on the outside of the windows. And that's what's happened to gambling. And the impact on society is huge. We now know that 2. 5 percent of the adult population are experiencing so called "problem gambling". And just to note on that terminology, it's not a term that we like to use, but this is what the statistics say. And we don't like to use it because we don't like to put the problem with the person. There are many reasons why people experience gambling harms, which is what I'll come on to later. But that figure alone. So that's the very sharp end of gambling harms, but then you've got many more impacted by somebody else's gambling. You've got widespread harms happening to young people. So, a really important point here is that these harms aren't just financial. Again, I think there's a perception that gambling addiction is a financial problem, and the harm is felt through debt and long-term financial worries. Actually, this is a mental health condition. This is a diagnosable mental health condition. Gambling disorder is in the DSM manual since 2013, and it's a mental health harm first and foremost. And that then causes anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts as well, which again, we'll come on to based on the work we do at Gambling with Lives. Helen: Thank you, James. So, what I've just heard you describe there, that it's gone from being a bit of a backstreet, rather unattractive niche thing, to being sort of very attractive and perhaps more widely, I don't know, more people participate in it. And you mentioned gambling machines and I'm also aware that people can gamble on the internet as well. They don't have to go out to do it necessarily. And I'm also aware that you used words like addiction, which most people would associate with substances, perhaps alcohol or drugs or something. And I wonder if you could say a bit more about, perhaps the difference between what I might have thought of as a harmless flutter and something that's harmful. James: Yeah, another good question and potentially asking the wrong person because I, obviously I experienced a gambling addiction myself, but I'll try to answer based on my own experiences. And on your first point, actually, probably the thing I forgot to say, which is most important is that the biggest change for gambling is, as you say, the fact that all of these products that are now available on our phones, in our pocket. At the time when the legislation was written, there was concerns about super casinos in places like Blackpool and on the coastal towns of England. And actually what's happened is we all now have a super casino, but it's in our pocket and anyone can access it over the age of 18. There's very little safeguards and protections on there. And that's where the harm is felt most on online gambling. And that's sort of the answer to the second question as well is that gambling is not just one product, and some products are more harmful, risky and addictive than others. And that's not to say you cannot be harmed by, as an example, buying a lottery ticket. Because if you've only got 5 pounds to last you for food that week and you spend 5 pounds on a lottery ticket, you are experiencing gambling harms. But evidence shows and experiences from people who have been there and been harmed are that the quickest, more attractive, the things that are designed to be addictive products like online slot games, online casino games, online bingo as well. These are the things that are really causing the harm and causing addiction. And the difference is the indication someone is experiencing gambling harm is how often someone is spending on those products and how much money someone is spending on those products and how quick all of those things are, those products. That's why people can get harmed quite quickly. Back in the day, again, you used to have to go somewhere to place a bet on, and you maybe did that once, twice a week. Now, because of how quickly you can do that, that creation of addiction is so much quicker and instant, and it can happen really quickly. I can give you examples of times where I spent five, six, seven hours just in bed spinning online roulette tables on online casinos. And that time I, it didn't feel like five, six, seven hours. It felt like I was just trapped in this zone. And that's because it's deliberately designed that way. So what happens is, and this is very medical and I'm not a scientist or a medical person, but this is a physiological change in the brain. So when you play these really fast paced products, these intense products like slots, like casino games, your pathways in your brain are rewired and it becomes a dopamine driven urge to do this thing again and again. And what's really worrying and something for your listeners to look out for, is if this happens to a young person before the age of 25, where their brain isn't fully developed and if they experience a big win and they get an explosion of dopamine in the brain from that win, that can be a real big indicator that they're going to experience gambling harm and even gambling addiction. So I would say that and the other thing that I would just say to answer the question is, there is no national guidance on a safe level of gambling. So I'm hesitant to say what that is, but there are clearly signs, indications, symptoms that someone may be experiencing gambling harm, such as feeling the need to check devices a lot, not being motivated by relationships or by career, lying about how much time and money is being spent gambling, and then of course, feeling suicidal or feeling like the world would be better off without you. There are some, but there are an exhaustive list of, of indications someone might be experiencing harm. Helen: I mean, this sounds really worrying, James. You've said probably around two and a half percent of the population may be experiencing gambling harms, and that doesn't count the people around the person who may be affected by their changes in how they interact, as well as things like, I don't know, would have an impact on household finances, for example, or occupation, things like that. And yet what we see in the media seems to be more about how to place bets and how to gamble rather than what the potential risks might be. James: Yeah, there's very little public health messaging about the risks of gambling. From my own experiences, if I take you through the journey of my life, really, as a child, not at any point was I taught or warned about the risks of gambling. You know, I was warned about drugs, warned about wearing a seatbelt, warned about sexual predators, was never ever told that gambling came with a risk to my mental health. And then when I started to gamble at the ages of like 18 to 25, there was no preventative health messaging, through campaigns or through advertising that told you that this is a risk to your mental health that you're probably likely to lose your money but there is places to go for help and support. That didn't exist. All we got, my generation, were messages like, When the fun stops, stop. Which was a ludicrous message but was the main one for years and years which just, you know, really put the onus of responsibility on an individual to use addictive products responsibly, which of course is a contradiction in terms. And even now there has been some progress, but there isn't messaging out there on the whole that really says the things that I've just said. Not many people know that this is a thing that impacts the pathways in the brain. Not many people know that this is an industry that makes 14 billion pounds every year and it makes most of that money from the most addictive products and from the people that are experiencing harm. And most people don't know where to go for help, support or treatment. We do a lot of prevention work and every time we're in a room with young people or with professionals, we ask them at the start of the session, do you know where to go if you're worried about someone you know because of gambling harms? And it's between like 80 and 90 percent of respondents to that question is a no, and that is really worrying. So it's not just that people aren't being warned, people aren't being protected from this either. And so there is a hell of a lot to do to ensure people don't experience harm in the first place. But if they do, they are, they're cared for. Helen: Thank you, James. And I'll want to come back to talking more about that as well. I mean, I think, one of the things standing here as a cognitive behavioural psychotherapist, I was really curious about what you were saying about how addictive these products are, about the dopamine rush that people experience, and actually physiological changes in the pathways of the brain which we know happen if you do something repeatedly, and gambling is one of those situations. And I remember very early in my learning about gambling, from a cognitive and behavioural point of view, one of the things that we talk about is the power of rewards. And you mentioned a big win, which may happen sometimes, even though, as you pointed out, overall, people would tend to lose money almost certainly if they gamble regularly. But the idea is that if you get a reward in an unpredictable way, especially if it's a really good one, we're much more likely to carry on doing that behaviour. The technical term for that would be intermittent reinforcement and when I'm talking about how CBT works, gambling is an example that I use because of that every now and again, you'll win something but what it does is it tends to keep going. Is that a reasonable understanding of, you know, how it's so addictive- are the things that I'm missing? James: No, that's a much better explanation than I would give. I think it's true and the gamble industry knows that. It employs some of the best psychologists in the world to design these products because they know what makes brains tick and what makes people coming back to the products. And, you know, in my experiences, I used to know that on the whole, I would lose money. And I used to know that on the whole, it didn't matter how many times I tried to stop that I couldn't and yet I couldn't stop myself going back to using these products and I didn't understand why. And it's only coming into recovery and doing the work that I do now and being taught this and being told this and finding out myself what actually happened to my brain, that gave me agency to realise that I was being tricked, I was being conned by gambling companies. It's all an illusion, these products are designed to fool you, designed to think that you have an illusion of control. They're designed to make you think that you've got a chance of winning in the long run, but the truth is the algorithm is against you and the house always wins. And again, going back to messaging that people need to hear, I think to be more hopeful and positive. That kind of messaging can be absolutely crucial to unlocking something in people's brains and giving them that freedom and agency and license to not just rewire their brain for good reasons, but to rebuild their life. And I, you know, I have a little mantra now that because of this knowledge that I have and because I know how the products are designed and I know how the industry operates, and I know the psychological tricks they used on me, they truly do not deserve another penny of my money or another second of my time. And that is such a big motivating factor for my recovery, and it keeps me going and I'm adamant until the day I die, I will not give them any of those things. Helen: And I just want to check with you, when you're talking about these things, I'm thinking there might be listeners out there who perhaps every now and again enjoy a day out at the races with their friends, or perhaps when there's a big football match or something like that, that they want to put a bit of a bet on. Is that the same kind of risk for certain people or, you know, if somebody was vulnerable, would that lead to harm in the same way as the internet and the machines in the betting shop? James: Yeah, again, I think all forms of gambling do carry a risk and some are more risky than others, and we're much I am genuinely and our charity is to not anti-gambling, we don't want to stop people recreationally gambling or go into events like that where gambling may be involved. But I would urge caution in that so often people's experiences of gambling harm and gambling addiction do start with what is perceived to be the more harmless or innocent forms of gambling, such as a bet on sports or a night at the bingo. And that's what happened with me. My first ever bet was a five pound football bet on a football match in a bookmakers. And you know, that, that led to years of devastation. And what the industry does is it spends lots of money on getting to these audiences in these sorts of venues, in these sorts of environments and in these sorts of sports to, to lure young people especially into then the more addictive forms of gambling, because that's where the profit is. Yes, they do make profit from football betting and from horse racing, of course, but most of their money now, most of their profit comes from the quicker, more addictive products. And that's the business model, to get people through one avenue to the next. And of course, that's not to say that everybody that goes to the horse racing or put bets on the football will become addicted. But the truth is, again, is that the industry wants people to spend lots of money on their sites. That's their business model. And the longer you are on those sites, and the more money you are spending, of course, the more profit they are guaranteeing in the long run. So again, it's just being aware of how quickly this can happen and being aware of the ways the industry targets people. Helen: And I mean, you've said, you know, just how quickly this can have an impact on people, how much it can suck you in to spending a lot of time and all the money and so on. How would somebody get from being in that position, and this is probably quite difficult to speak about, but where people are actually dying by suicide in relation to having gambling difficulties, how does it get to that situation? James: Yeah. And I can answer from my own experiences partly, but I can also answer from the facts from the position of our beneficiaries, which are families who have lost loved ones to gambling related suicide. And I'll just start by saying that for those families, and I didn't meet the people that died, but I've met their families, and they all say the same thing, that these were just every day, normal, bright, happy, young people with their life ahead of them with no real vulnerabilities, no preexisting conditions, good upbringings, and gambling was the thing that changed them, that robbed them of their future. And I can really resonate with that.  When I first came across the charity and I listened to the mums talk about their sons that had died. I did honestly think that could have been my mum quite easily. And that is because I feel like I know what it was like to get to that point. And what it is, it's not about losing substantial amounts of money. And of course, when that does happen, it can feel absolutely catastrophic. But what it is that sense of never being free of this. And, you know, I used to think I would always be addicted to gambling. I genuinely remember thinking I would spend my life addicted to gambling. This was just the, who I was, just the way I was. And that was such a horrible mindset to be in because it made me very pessimistic, nihilistic, didn't really care about myself, didn't care about my well-being, didn't do anything for myself, didn't look after myself, and because I had no control over what I was doing, that feeling of not being in control of your actions, you sort of think, well if I'm not in control of myself, what is the point? Because agency and control and freedom is sort of all we have and they're the fundamentals of how we live so to be robbed of those things, I can see so easily why people get to that point and think I'll never be free of this and I have lost all control over my life and there is no hope. And there is now, thanks to the work of bereaved families, there is now national recognition that gambling can be the dominant factor in a suicide, without which the suicide would not have occurred. And, sadly, it's somewhere between 117 to 496 people every year in England alone take their life because of gambling. And, you know, we're there to support the families who come to us and thank God we are. But this is something that is happening far too often, and we're getting far too many families who need us. And again, where is the message that by engaging with these products, there can be a serious risk to your life. And it's, you know, it's not a drastic thing to say that gambling can kill. And the point of disclosure, the point of, sometimes what's referred to as rock bottom, but the point of when someone says, I can't do this anymore, I can't be like this anymore. That is where the suicide risk is greatest. And so, we as professionals, as people that come into contact with people experiencing harm, always have to be mindful of the suicide risk and do everything we can to use the right language to, to support someone as adequately as we can. Because a common feature and experience of those that are no longer with us was that they try to access services. They try to stop, they try to have the conversation with people, but there wasn't that understanding about how serious this is. I think going back to my first answer on today was people thought that this is just gambling. It's just betting. It's just, you know, he just can't stop a few bets at the weekend. This is not, this is a serious health issue that drives people to that, that moment. Helen: And that's absolutely shocking statistics there, James, talking about the sheer number of people that are being lost to suicide, related to gambling and you're spending time with the families of people who've already gone. You said that you haven't met those people. You've met the people who've been affected by their loss. And you described what I would think of symptoms that sound very much like depression. You know, that sense of hopelessness, I'm never going to get any control over my life. I've tried everything and I've run out of ideas and all of those things. If somebody came to me and described that and didn't say that they were betting, I would think this person was really quite depressed. And you also said you weren't looking after yourself and your relationships weren't going well. And again, those would be things where I would expect a healthcare professional to be concerned about someone's mental health and think about depression. Is there anything that people like me, healthcare professionals, should really take care to check to know whether there's a gambling element to how someone's feeling? James: Yeah, and it's interesting you mentioned depression because I think it's one of the most common harms felt from gambling. And I, again, from my own experiences, I used to think when I was addicted to gambling that I was just a depressed person who gambled. Having now been nearly seven years in recovery, I realise that I was a person who gambled and that caused depression and those feelings, because I wasn't like that before gambling and I haven't been like that after gambling. So it's something about gambling specifically, I think that makes people feel depressed. And similarly, with anxiety as well. And in terms of what healthcare professionals can do, a real basic ask from us would be just to ask the question, and that is something that's not traditionally happened, but this is a new and emerging field so there's no judgment at all on any healthcare professional. But begin to ask the question and you can ask it in an empathetic way. You can ask it in an unjudgmental way, and it could just be as simple as, are you worried about your gambling or someone, you know, if you're worried about an affected other, and that could unlock something. It might be the first time someone's been asked that question. And if the answer is yes, then it's really absolutely crucial to determine what type of gambling they are gambling on, because as we know, if it's a weekly bet at the football or if it's some of the less harmful products like buying a lottery ticket or taking part in the, you know, the village fate raffle, we can probably assume there is a less risk of addiction and all the harms that I've talked about. But if they say, I've just been using an online roulette machine for four hours. Okay, alarm bells would need to be start ringing because we know how powerful those products are and the impact that has on the brain. It would then be to determine how often they're gambling, how long they're spending when they gamble, and asking them about their support networks around them. And I kind of feel like here, I need to give a bit of a shameless plug to the work we do through Chapter One, is that there's no expectation for healthcare professionals that are listening to this to be experts in gambling because there hasn't been adequate information and training, but our program through chapter One is there for you. We are here to help. We are here to train you to be able to have these conversations, to have the information and the knowledge that you need. So if someone says, I can't stop gambling, it's not that you just know what to say next, but you know, why that person is experiencing that and what we can do to help them, stop and rebuild their life. Helen: And I probably want to ask you a bit more about that, James, if I can come back to that. I think it's really important for our listeners in general, particularly the ones who are healthcare professionals, but also everybody out there to understand more about that. And I wonder, on the way to that, whether we could talk a little bit. You said that one of the things that you've done is talk to people working in NHS gambling services, and particularly people who do CBT. Can you tell us a bit about what it's like to talk to people doing CBT when it comes to gambling and gambling harms? James: Sure. So, I didn't get any treatment or any support other than the self-exclusion tools that you can put on yourself and just support from my mum and from family and close friends. And that was because when I stopped gambling in 2018, I think there was just one specialist gambling addiction clinic in the country, possibly two. But not one that was local to me and not one that was accessible to me. I'm now pleased to say that there are 15 specialist clinics across the country that cover every single area of England. Same cannot be said for Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland, unfortunately yet. But there is wider support out there, other than the NHS services. Having met with all but one of these NHS clinics now, they all take a nearly identical approach and that is CBT first and foremost for someone that's experiencing gambling harm. And I've spoke to the clinicians at these organisations extensively and we've worked with them to learn how best to tailor our materials and to work together. And honestly, I'm not just saying this, I leave those conversations feeling like these are truly people who understand what happened to me, what happened to my brain and have the answers to rewire it and to change the behaviour for the better. And I left feeling like I would send anybody I knew that's experiencing gambling harms into their service tomorrow, because they would be in the safest possible hands and that's kind of what we're doing with our work now is we want to be that support and treatment pathway into these services because we know how effective CBT is. We think, and I say that because I'm not actually sure on the best international evidence, but we think this is the best form of treatment for people experiencing gambling harms. And this is what these services offer. So our job is to get many more people into those services because currently only one in 200 people who may benefit from treatment for gambling harms are accessing it. So there is clearly a massive gap and a massive job to do to get more people into those services. Helen: Again, you're giving us some fairly shocking statistics there about the sheer number of people with the difficulties, the people who are losing their lives and the families affected by it, and the number of people who are accessing help. And I'm just thinking about the work that you do in Chapter 1. Did you say that training is one of the key things that you offer? James: Yeah, so Chapter One provides information and support for everyone affected by gambling, including training for professionals. So, it's designed to give information to everybody about the causes and effects of gambling harms and how to support someone if you're worried. But a big focus of the work has been helping professionals perform very brief interventions and also helping them understand where specialist support and treatment is. And we have a training program for frontline professionals, which has been rolled out across Greater Manchester, in Yorkshire, and in Nottingham to really good results. And we're about to have an e-learning platform as well, which professionals will be able to access towards the end of 2025. And we just hope that it makes it easier because we are totally aware of how time pressured people are, how stretched people are, the fact that, you know, health professionals have to be experts in lots and lots of different fields and we want to lighten the load on that and make it easier for people because we know this stuff, we know gambling, everything has been informed by lived experience and by gambling addiction clinicians and those messages, that information, those resources are all accessible, on the Chapter One website, which is chapter-one.org. And there's actually a dedicated professionals hub on the website as well, where it's got additional resources, stuff that you can print off and start using tomorrow to put up into the places where you work, takeaway resources, posters, flyers, and that will be a really good starting point. But I would highly recommend trying to book on to some training to learn more about what we do and how you can help. Helen: Sounds like a fantastic resource and we'll make sure we put that link on our show page so that everybody can follow that up and have a look. Thank you. So, I mean, it sounds like you've done a huge amount of excellent work, and you've also said there's probably a lot to do. How do you see the future? I mean, what do you want to see, you know, in, in the next few years? What would you want to see happen? James: Yeah, well, I kind of have a vision of how to prevent gambling harm and to save people dying because of gambling related suicide. And it's a number of things and you have to bear with me here, but I think it has to start with better legislation of gambling laws to make gambling much safer in the first place and better regulation of those laws by the regulator, so the industry is accountable and those laws are enforceable. But beyond that, look, I think every young person, in every school should have a curriculum mandated lesson on the risks of gambling. And that lesson has to talk about the risks to mental health and the addictive nature of gambling and the industry business model and the practices they use to draw us all in. I think that everybody in the public deserves public health information and messaging about why this happens to people and how best to support someone if you're worried. I think that every professional should have access to training. I think that every professional who works with children and young people should be empowered to have resources to deliver preventative education to the young people they work with. And I think there should be much, much better joined up services so there's no wrong door for people experiencing gambling harms. If someone comes to a service and says, I'm worried about gambling or I can't stop gambling. Everybody should know at the very least where to point that person in the right direction. It's no good fobbing people off with generic mental health support advice. This is a unique and diagnosable mental health condition that deserves recognition for that reason alone. And everybody should know that there are now specialist NHS clinics that can provide support. So that's the vision. And I don't think we're a million miles away from that happening. The political context is that we're about to get a statutory levy on the gambling industry, which will be roughly 1 percent of their profits that will be given to independent prevention, research and treatment. So that is a really positive step, and it will ensure that there is more treatment, better access to treatment. The truth is again, on the prevention side of things, probably 30 million pounds of that will be spent on prevention activities. But if we think about how much money the gambling industry spends on advertising which is 1. 5 billion pounds every year. Well, we're using a 30-million-pound budget to try and compete with 1.5 billion pounds of advertising, telling everybody that gambling is safe, harmless fun. So there's, the balance is still not there. So I would advocate for more investment in prevention and all the things that I said to make sure people know about the risks and how to get help much earlier. Helen: Thank you. And I really would say hearing what you're saying about the extent of the difficulty, and that people are starting to talk about it more. you have the ear of the government, perhaps in a way that hasn't been the case in the past and things are perhaps moving in the right direction. And it really comes across how passionate you are about making a difference here. One of the things that I did wonder about, going back to one of the things that you said right at the beginning about this sort of dirty backstreet betting shop thing and, how the presentation of it all has changed and it's kind of shiny and attractive. I still wonder though if there's anybody listening out there who's thinking about, well, maybe this is something that is affecting me, but feeling embarrassed or ashamed or hasn't got a social support network that would hear them if they said I've got a difficulty. Have you got anything that you'd say to them? James: Yeah, I would say, try to self-reflect on gambling and your relationship with it. So ask yourself, what is gambling costing me, not just financially, but including the money, but time. What is potentially gambling benefiting me and literally write those things out. And I can almost guarantee that the list of things that will be costing you will be greater than the things that you are getting benefit from. I would encourage you to really question whether you can engage with sport without having to put a bet on. That was a huge point for me is that the idea of watching sport, especially football, without putting money on it used to be an awful feeling. I couldn't bear it. And so ask yourself that. Has that become such a part of your routine that you always put a bet on when you watch the football? Do you find yourself gambling when you intended not to, how many days do you honestly think you can go without gambling? Ask yourselves those questions as a starting point. And I'm not going to tell you the answers to those because I don't think it's our job to, to tell people that I think self-reflection is really important. And that's, you know, that's something that I did for my recovery was write down all the things that gambling had done to me. And every time that I felt, oh actually, maybe a bet on the football this weekend might be fine. Cause I'm over it now. I literally got that list out on paper and would go through it and go, oh yeah, I remember now this is what it costs me. This is what it did to me. And I'm not going to go into that. And the other thing that I'll say as well is it try and give yourself as much information about gambling as possible. So again, look at Chapter One, go on the website and look at the information on there about how gambling products are designed, what the industry business model does, the whole myth of safe and responsible gambling initiatives, that kind of information might make you see gambling in a different light. And I'll give you one personal anecdote actually recently that has helped me, is that I've started to look into and read about ultra processed food. And it's really opened my eyes about the tactics and the mechanics and the playbook of the junk food, fast food industry. And it's really put me off it. It's made me think, actually, I don't want to eat this stuff because I now know what's in it. I now know how the industry operates and lobbies similar to what happened with me with gambling. So I'm always a big advocate for information. Giving people information is absolutely key. So go find it. Helen: It sounds as if, there's anything from just asking yourself some questions and educating yourself, just checking who's benefiting here, all of those kind of questions, but also places that you could go to learn more and places you can find help. And it sounds for you as if that comes in the context of a more generally healthy lifestyle as well, that you live these days. James: Yeah, if you ask my wife, she may disagree, but I still eat unhealthy food. I still have a drink. I'm no angel, but I am now much more aware of how a whole range of industries actually, do everything they can to keep us as customers, especially the gambling industry, but, you know, I feel like we're all quite attached to our phones and to social media. And that's really difficult and it's deliberate. And that's the thing that really gets me is the deliberate nature of all this and going back to gambling, that is, you know, there is a deliberate side of this. It's to generate profit at the expense of widespread social harm. And that's the thing that, you know, you mentioned passion. That's the thing that gives me the passion to know that I can counter that information by going to tell people the truth and my personal experiences are what keeps me going, drives me on, but also knowing that I have the opportunity to tell people that and tell people the truth, yeah, is good for me and I'm hoping it will be good for many others. Helen: Thank you. So if you had one key message out of all of those things that we've been talking about today, where you want people out there to know, especially if they've got a worry about a loved one or a worry about themselves. What's the one key thing that you really want people to remember from our conversation today? James: The first thing that came to my mind, it's really difficult because there's lots of things I'd like to say, but I'll stick with the one. And the first thing that came to my mind is, please don't think this is all your own fault, and please don't think it's all the fault of the person that you care about or you love. And that's really difficult, especially for that latter category of people because you may be experiencing harms and none of this is definitely your fault because you've not even gambled, and you may be experiencing harms through a loved one. But there is a reason this happens. Nobody wants to be addicted to gambling. Nobody wants to experience gambling harms. And of course, yes, people do have agency, and people are responsible for their recovery and for seeking help and for staying recovered and abstinent. But from my perspective, I will never take responsibility for being given an addiction at 16 years old and never, ever take responsibility for throughout 12 years of addiction, never being asked by a gambling company if I was okay, or if I could afford to lose the money that I was losing. And so, to summarise, try to remove this blame that people feel because that is another reason why people get to that point of feeling that they've let everybody down and it's all their own fault. So challenging that narrative is absolutely fundamental for us and for me. Helen: Thank you, James. And I just want to check whether there's anything that you would want to ask me or anything else that you'd like to say before we finish today. James: I just like to say thank you for the opportunity to speak to anyone that's listening and thank you for dedicating time to this topic. I know it's not a topic that is always high up the agenda, until it needs to be. And that's the sad truth that gambling harms are often identified way too late, or at crisis point, or at death. And hopefully, by just spending a bit of time listening to this and looking up Chapter One, you may avoid those situations. So just to thank you for me. And if anyone wants any more information on these, anything from me, you can get in touch with me through, my email address, which is, [email protected] Helen: Thank you so much, James. Thank you. James: Thanks. Helen: Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected], that's [email protected]. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.  

In this episode, Helen talks with Lizzie, a beauty content creator and disability advocate, and Bex, a CBT therapist, about Lizzie's journey navigating living with long term health conditions, trauma and the transformative impact of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT). Lizzie shares her experiences living with Crohn's disease, POTS (Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome), and hypermobility spectrum disorder, alongside the emotional challenges of managing these conditions. She discusses her initial scepticism about therapy and how CBT helped her address anxiety, PTSD, and prioritising her own well-being. Bex offers insights into the therapeutic process, addressing common misconceptions about CBT, and highlights the importance of building trust and tailoring therapy to individual needs. Together, they discuss the interaction between physical and mental health and strategies for balancing driven lifestyles with well-being. Useful links: Explore Lizzie's content on Instagram and TikTok (@slaywithsparkle). Listen to our sister podcasts: Let's Talk About CBT - Practice Matters and Let's Talk About CBT - Research Matters: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Find us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babcppodcasts/ Learn more about CBT www.babcp.com Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was edited by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't.  I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies   What we've got for you today is a conversation with Lizzie and Bex. Lizzie's going to talk about her experiences of having CBT and living with a number of conditions that she'll tell us more about in the episode. We're going to talk to Bex, who is a CBT therapist, and she's going to talk with us about working with Lizzie as well. Welcome to you both. Lizzie, would you like to introduce yourself? Lizzie: Hello! Thank you so much for having me. So as Helen's just said, my name is Lizzie. I am also a beauty content creator known as @slaywithsparkle on Instagram and TikTok and a little bit of YouTube and I'm also a speaker that talks about disability awareness. And I try and raise awareness about the health conditions I've got and general sort of disability awareness and activism about that. Helen: Thank you Lizzie, and welcome. Thank you for coming to talk to us today. And Bex, would you like to tell our listeners about you? Bex: Hi. Yes, I'm Bex. I'm a CBT therapist and worked with Lizzie a little time ago, when I worked in a physical health service for IAPT at the time. And I currently work more with trauma in Sheffield both in the NHS and privately. Helen Thank you, Bex. And maybe I should just say, when you said IAPT, we're now talking about NHS Talking Therapies. Bex: That's right. Yes. Thank you for providing the update. Helen: So Lizzie, can I ask you a bit about what was happening for you? What was going on that meant you ended up having CBT? Lizzie: So for me, I really had quite a negative opinion about any sort of talking therapy and had very much been brought up with the idea that if you have some sort of mental health problem, you should be able to solve it yourself. And if you just think positively and carry on, then everything should be fine. Because of my health conditions, so I will just mention just briefly so people are aware what my health conditions are just for context. So I have, Crohn's disease, which I was diagnosed with when I was 21 and then later about 9- 10 years later, I was diagnosed with hypermobile spectrum disorder and also POTS, which is a condition that affects my blood pressure and heart rate. And when I had a first flare of Crohn's disease. I'd obviously had it a long time without realising, but when I first flared with Crohn's disease, I really struggled with the concept of having a physical health condition that I couldn't push through. So with my Crohn's, I ended up ignoring a lot of the doctor's advice because I had this idea that I should be able to cure myself. I really pushed myself to look at alternative therapies. And then, because of that, I ended up ignoring what the doctor said and becoming a lot more ill. Unfortunately, because of a combination of the Crohn's having been misdiagnosed for a long time as IBS, and then because of all of those sorts of ideas about that I should be able to cure myself, my Crohn's did get so bad that I ended up having to go to hospital and have emergency surgery on my bowel. Years later, so about two or three years later, I started having real panic attacks, which I'd never had before. I was anxious all the time and I couldn't sleep. I would sometimes wake up in the middle of the night at like 4am and get the urge to clean the entire house and was sometimes just up in the middle of the night pacing up and down. And my partner at the time said to me, you know, this is not normal. Something's going on. You really need to think about getting some help for this. And I was devastated at that concept because I obviously had this idea that I should be able to fix myself. And so that was the sort of wakeup call that I had to go and get some help and I applied to IAPT at the time and had my first round of CBT. Since then I've had three rounds of CBT and a course of EMDR as well but yeah, that was the first thing that sort of led me to CBT. Helen: Thank you, Lizzie. And it just strikes me what a difficult combination of things you experienced that not only were you having a number of quite complicated and long-lasting physical symptoms, also the experiences you'd had when you were younger meant that it was really difficult to seek help for the panic attacks and the anxiety and so on. Can I ask you just to say, in case anybody's not familiar with the terms, can you just say a little bit about what the symptoms of Crohn's disease are? Lizzie: Yes, absolutely. So Crohn's disease is different for everybody. For me, I really struggled with pain and one of the biggest symptoms that I had was pain. I also struggle with diarrhoea. It's not the most glamorous disease. It's quite embarrassing sometimes. Some people have a lot of nausea and vomiting. For me, that's not been as much of a problem. To me, the biggest problem has been pain. And it got so bad that when I was actually in my final year of university, I'd been told by the doctors repeatedly that it was IBS, and it was just stress related IBS and I just needed to make sure I watch what I eat, tried to up my fibre, which made me a lot more ill. And eventually it got to the point where I literally couldn't even drink water because my oesophagus was closing up. I was in absolute agony and I finally went back to the doctor and I was like, really, honestly, there's something seriously wrong here and then they finally sent me for the right tests and they found the Crohn's disease. The other big symptom with Crohn's disease as well is fatigue. So, most people actually say that fatigue is the most debilitating symptom of Crohn's disease. And for me, I mean, at the moment I am in a flare and I am sleeping 14 hours. And if I don't get that 14 hours, I cannot function and I need a full day in bed to recover. Helen: And again, you've said about some of the symptoms being a little bit similar to IBS or Irritable Bowel Syndrome but having a really far reaching impact on every area of your life, really. You also mentioned that you had POTS, which can affect your blood pressure. And if I have this right, it's Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome? Lizzie: Yeah, so it affects your, for me, it affects my blood pressure. Not everybody has problems with their blood pressure all the time. But what happens is your heart isn't getting the right signals. And so you end up having a really high heart rate when you stood up and then that can lead to you passing out. It also leads to symptoms again, like nausea, fatigue and for me, it just feels horrible. Like, it's just that feeling of like sometimes the world's sort of closing in on you and when you're about to go you just feel really sick, really like something's pulling you to the floor. It's a very frustrating condition. I think out of all of them, Crohn's is the most dangerous and that one is the one that when that's flaring, I'm always a little bit nervous because mine is quite severe, but POTS is definitely the one that is the most infuriating. I've had to lie down in the middle of shops. I once had to lie on the floor in the middle of Poundland because I was passing out and honestly, it's just mortifying. It's really embarrassing. Helen: And I'm noticing there as well, Lizzie, that you've just said that the Crohn's disease because of the symptoms of diarrhoea and you know that can be embarrassing. We all know that the impact of eating a lot of fibre, which you were advised to do can be, can lead to embarrassing symptoms and then the POTS as well, that having to lie down somewhere public, more embarrassment. And in addition to that, you also said that you have hypermobility syndrome. And again, can you just say a little bit about what that's like? Lizzie: Yes, so for me, I have a late diagnosis of hypermobile spectrum disorder. There are a couple of things that are related, so similar, sorry. So there's hypermobile EDS and then there's also hypermobile spectrum disorder and they're very similar conditions. But the one that I have is hypermobile spectrum disorder and with that, it just basically means that my joints are too floppy. They extend past the natural point where they should extend because my collagen is built in a way that means it can stretch further than it should. So it was okay when I was younger. I used to be able to just do amazing, you know, bend my back really far back and look very bendy. And then as I got older, as the rest of my connective tissue ended up getting looser, as it naturally does when you get older, my joint started to get worse. I got more and more joint pain. I'd had joint pain my whole life, but it became a lot more severe. And it's now got to the point where I am not able to walk any distance with, any significant distance without a walking stick. And in order to go around, say, for example, like a supermarket, I need a wheelchair. Helen: Thank you for explaining all that, Lizzie. Again, I'm listening to you and I'm hearing lots of things that could make it also really hard to manage your mental health. And I want to come back to you and talk to you a bit more about what it was like having the CBT. Before we do that, can I just ask Bex what it was like for her when she first met you? Because we've heard a bit about your background and maybe what you were thinking before you first went to see her. So, Bex, what was it like meeting Lizzie for the first time? Bex: So, you can't see Lizzie but Lizzie is a lovely, warm person. So that was obvious from the start and I guess I was, with any physical health problem, the thing we're trying to do at the start is to understand what someone's experiencing and making space for someone to kind of tell their story a little bit about what they've experienced and what they're finding difficult so that we can kind of map that out and work out how we could potentially help too by working on this together. I think when I first met Lizzie, we fumbled a little bit at that process. I don't know if you want to say a little bit more about that, Lizzie, and I think, you know, I was trying to explain how pain and mental health might interact, and I might've done that a bit clumsily. Lizzie: I think, to be honest, I went in with this real prejudice, I guess, against mental health. So when I came to you, I had actually already had one round of CBT to start with, but I was really still coming from this place of prejudice against talking therapies and fear about whether I was going to be believed about my health conditions. The first round of CBT that I'd had, it was in a place I used to live down south, and it was very much focusing on the anxiety. And we talked about it being to do with the fact that I've been diagnosed with Crohn's disease and the fact that I'd had a lot of hospitalisations and the fact that I had emergency surgery, and also the fact that I'd been told that I might have a shorter life expectancy as well. And so it very much focused on the anxiety of dealing with those concepts. But underlying it all, I still had this fear of not being believed about my health conditions. I also, I will just share now, because it is relevant as well, that while I was in hospital for the emergency surgery, the night of that emergency surgery, I was physically abused by a doctor. He was a locum doctor that the hospital had employed just for, you know, a couple of nights. And he insisted on doing a physical investigation on me despite me asking him not to and then he purposefully inflicted pain on me and he enjoyed it, it was a really unpleasant, horrible experience and thankfully a nurse walked in as he was doing this and she got him to stop and he got reported and he no longer works in hospitals and that has all been dealt with. But when I first went into CBT, I hadn't even thought about that as something to talk about because I felt like that was my fault. And I felt like that was my fault because I was in pain because I hadn't done a good enough job at curing my conditions. And so that narrative was in my head when I came to see Bex. And I already had this idea of like, I'm not good enough at curing myself, but I'm now getting to the point where I do need to believe that I've got these health conditions because I'm seeing physical evidence of it more and more. So I was sort of in this halfway point between trying to accept it, but also thinking, nobody else is going to believe this because I don't really believe it. And that's what I came to Bex with, which must not have been the easiest patient. And then at first we did have, I think there was a very slight miscommunication about the fact that CBT can help people with physical health conditions with pain. And I saw that as, oh she's saying it's all in my head and that if I just talk about this, then my pain is going to be completely cured, and they don't believe me that I'm in real pain. But then Bex was brilliant and stopped me and said, no, I really do believe you and you explained it. So, Bex, I'll go back to you because I think you explained it really well and it really helped me. Bex: Well, I think I just said, I believe you and your pain is real. Can we just have that as a starting point and think about how what you've experienced has contributed to living with it and how some of those beliefs you have about yourself might make it harder and maybe they're the bits that therapy can support you with. Helen: Thank you for that, Bex. We've just heard Lizzie talk about, not only having those health conditions and those beliefs, but also about being assaulted when she was supposed to be in a safe place. And you started to talk there about the interaction between the physical conditions and perhaps the emotional beliefs thinking. How did that then help you decide with Lizzie what to do next? Bex: So we talked about it together to decide what to do next. And I guess part of that process was understanding kind of the emotional impacts of both the physical health conditions, you know sometimes there's understandable uncertainty, anxiety, maybe grief associated with those things and the adjustments that are necessary, but also the huge emotional impact of her trauma experience and how that contributed to the stress she was experiencing day by day. And really it, originally, it's mapping that out and understanding it as much as we can to inform Lizzie making a choice about what she wants to prioritise. And, if I remember, we started with some work on physical health and understanding that, partly because of you already alluded to that kind of disbelief you had about your own kind of symptoms and in your own body and listening to that. So I think we did some work to start with on that before doing a kind of CBT for trauma approach that Lizzie was very much leading that decision. Lizzie: Yes, I think the other thing that I remember as well is that I didn't, I don't think I opened up to you about the thing that happened with the doctor straight away. I feel like I went knowing that I had still got anxiety because of things that had happened in hospital and the Crohn's and everything generally and the fact that I was being diagnosed with POTS, I think that was what was going on as well. I was just about to be diagnosed with POTS, so this new diagnosis had sort of triggered a lot of anxiety because of what happened when I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. It was sort of like coming back. But I don't think I actually mentioned the doctor to you straight away. I think that came out naturally when you sort of asked me to talk about what had happened and what were the things that I sort of was getting in terms of flashbacks because I was having PTSD flashbacks as well. Sorry, I forgot to mention that, and I think we pulled it out by having those conversations. So it was really important that you worked with me on it because that enabled you to be able to pull out this major thing that I probably didn't even see as a priority because I blamed myself for it. So I thought that was really useful. Helen: And I'm hearing from what you're saying that combination between very difficult to manage physical symptoms and how those interacted with what you believed and how strong that was. And I think it's really interesting that sometimes people talk about long term health conditions, as if they were all in the mind and that being completely wrong. And coming to someone like Bex, who's got psychologist or psychotherapist or something like that in her title, being particularly difficult at the same time as for you, believing that it really was something that you had control over by the power of your mind or something like that, that somehow, if you only tried harder, you could change what was happening. Lizzie: Yeah, absolutely. It was, I was terrified. Honestly, I was so confused about what was going on in my own brain. I felt like I needed to do something because I was getting flashbacks at that point. In any sort of moment where I wasn't actively doing something, I was getting flashbacks every 15 seconds, I think. Honestly, it was it was awful. I was getting certain colours were triggering things, and it was constant. It was exhausting and I knew there was something that I needed to do about it. I had my first round of CBT which was successful at helping me bring my anxiety down, so I had that sort of stepping stone, but I was still coming from this place of fear and doubt. And I think part of that is because I was told by the doctors when I was first diagnosed with Crohn's that I should have CBT. And I thought that was them saying that it was all in my head, but it was actually that they were prescribing it as a way of helping me cope with the pain, but the way it was communicated to me made it sound like they just thought, Oh, well, if you have CBT, then you'll be cured of Crohn's disease, which is not what they meant. And I now know that having spoken to people who work in the sector more, I now understand that. But I think that a lot of people, when they are first told, oh, I think you should have CBT. They think, oh, this is just the doctor trying to fob me off, but it's not, it's them using their toolkit of things they've got available to them to try and help. It's just not necessarily communicated that well. And I think if it was communicated to me differently, back when I was first diagnosed with Crohn's, maybe I would have had CBT back then, and maybe I might have had a bit more support as I was going through the diagnosis. And some of that fear might have been mitigated a little bit back then. Helen: I think that's really important for you to have explained that actually, that sense of, for people like myself and Bex, perhaps, to understand how to explain why what we've got to offer might be useful and not to make assumptions that someone that we're recommending for CBT will automatically know what we meant. So that's an important message. I think. Once you did go to CBT, can you tell us a bit about what was actually helpful? What did you actually do or talk about? What was it that seemed to make a helpful difference? Lizzie: So the first round of CBT that I had was very much focused on mindfulness and being able to be in the moment. I did have PTSD and my PTSD score was very high, my anxiety score was very high. I think my depression score was lower at that point, I'm not sure if I scored for depression at that point, but the main thing that I found helpful was being able to stay in the moment because I was constantly worrying about the future, worrying about death, worrying about what was going to happen if my Crohn's flared again, worried about what was going to happen if I had to stay in hospital again, and I was constantly writing all these stories for myself that weren't happening, and living in fear that I didn't need to be thinking about. So that really helped me just to be mindful and to focus on the moment. And when I first heard the term mindfulness, I was like, right, okay. Are we just going to be like sit in a circle and go "ohm" or something? And it wasn't that at all. It was very much using strategies that are very simple to just help my body and my mind realise that I am safe in this moment. And that for me was really helpful. And as somebody coming from a place of doubt, I think again, if that had been communicated to me before I'd gone into it, I think I probably would have been a lot more open, because I think even back then, my first therapist probably had a lot of resistance from me as well. And then when I came to Bex, the main thing that I was struggling with then, I think was the PTSD flashbacks, but I think I also scored for anxiety and depression at that point. I was, again for context, I was a teacher still then, so I now have had to medically retire, unfortunately. But when I first saw Bex, I was still a teacher, and I was really pushing myself past the point that I should have been. I was exhausted. I was in pain all the time. I was determined to have a successful career, which I did have. Despite all of this, I did have a very successful career as a teacher, but the reason I had that successful career was because I pushed myself despite all this pain. And it was also a way for me to take my mind off the PTSD, because if I was busy, if I was constantly go, go, go, it meant I didn't have to think about it. So that was where I was at when I first came to Bex. And I think one of the things that she did was, like I said, pulled out the key things that were kind of coming up in flashbacks. And then we did a sort of narrative about the trauma, which was horrible. I'm not going to say it was really horrible, but it helped. So I think that's another thing to say, like, if you're having CBT and the therapist suggests something that is horrible, it's probably going to be good for you because yeah, so we had to basically go through the story of the most traumatic time of my life ever. Over and over again, and I was given homework of going home, reading it through this narrative of like everything that happened over and over again. And it was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Honestly, it was horrible. But by the end of it, I got to the point where I can now, you know, come on a podcast and tell you I was assaulted by a doctor.  When I first saw Bex, I couldn't even say the words about anything that had happened. And the fact that I can now come on publicly and talk about this is, you know, that just shows how helpful CBT was for me, because I honestly, I would have never imagined talking to anybody about it. I didn't even tell my partner who I'd been with for, I think over 10 years at that point, I didn't even tell him until I'd gone through that process of CBT. Most of my friends and family had no idea. Helen: Thank you, Lizzie. It strikes me from everything that you've just been telling me that between working on the post-traumatic stress disorder, the PTSD symptoms and working with Bex to do something that you really didn't want to do and actually deliberately, repeatedly going over it until you could talk about it until, like you say, you can come and talk publicly about it with us, which we're extremely grateful for, but also hearing how hard that is. And in a moment, I'm going to be asking Bex about what she does both to persuade you and other people to go through something that's that difficult, and how you make it manageable when clearly it's a horrible thing to go through. What I might also want to come back to you about as well is you really conveyed how driven you were about that wanting the career, keeping busy, pushing it. And I want to come back about the impact of that as well, if I may. But first, can I go to Bex and just talk about, Lizzie just told us that you've essentially asked her to do the worst thing and do it repeatedly. Bex: Yes, we did. So yeah, it's intuitively the last thing you want to do when you've experienced, you know, something so, so awful and life threatening, that the last thing you want to do is talk about that. So, we do prepare for it, we do some sort of exercises to make sure that we have the tools to calm down if it's distressing, and we explain the theory for why we're doing that because these are kind of stuck, emotional responses and perspectives from being in a situation that was too much for your brain to process at that time. So we're making the space for it subsequently to understand what happened, connect to the feelings that were overwhelming at the time and sort of safely release them through this process. And as well as doing that, we also understand, you know, look at the beliefs that became stuck at that time. And we challenge those together to see if we can get some kind of perspective. So, for example, you were talking about the self-blame, that is so, so usual with trauma. And we looked at that from a different perspective now we had all the information, and I guess the way we encourage people to do that is very much making sure it's their choice, you know, nobody has to do this, but explaining what the benefits might be if we were to try doing this together and try doing it at the pace that you feel like you're able to tolerate and that you're in control of the process. And it's also important to have that story heard and understood by both of us in that process. Helen: And can I just talk to you both about that experience of being really driven. And there was something about the way you described that, Lizzie, that part of that was trying not to be triggered or think about all the bad things that had been happening for you. But also that general style of pushing for a career, being really busy, being highly motivated and I just wondered how the two of you managed that aspect, you know, during your sessions or between them, perhaps more importantly. Lizzie: I think one of the things I can remember was in the first session. So I explained that I was, you know, determined to still be a teacher and how I loved my job, which I did, and I still wish I could be a teacher, I'm not going to lie, I really did genuinely love being a teacher which is part of why I was so driven, because I actually did really enjoy it. But there was definitely that element of me trying to kind ignore everything. But one of the things that Bex did very early on, I think it was the first session, she just said, your homework is to do something fun. And honestly, the concept of doing something fun for myself at that point was unimaginable. And I found it really hard. I found it really hard to think about something to do just for fun for myself. And I think that was just a sign of how much I needed that help because I couldn't even think about what to do. And that really helped me to start to come out of this really, like, blinkered existence where I was thinking, go, go, go, go, go. And it just gradually, bit by bit, helped to pull me out of it. And I think you kept suggesting things like that. And then we talked about what was nice in my week and things like that. And it just helped bring me out of this sort of bubble that I was in. Helen: And Bex, will you tell us a bit about how you were thinking about that as a CBT therapist? What's going through your mind when you're working with somebody like Lizzie, who's working really hard, but is almost stuck for finding something fun or rewarding to do? What's going through your mind as a therapist? Bex: I didn't remember that actually, Lizzie, but I think, well, I guess I'm just noticing how driven and how exhausting it sounds to be kind of pushing so hard, despite feeling so ill. And I'm encouraging a new pattern of behaviour, I guess. I'm encouraging a different way of responding just to try it out. You know, with CBT, we're always just testing stuff, see what works, what doesn't, and so I guess I'm encouraging that early doors to get a bit of a buy into the concept, you know, are you're okay with this approach? And I do remember that we did throughout, we did do bits and pieces around understanding the consequences of working that hard or noticing, cause sometimes you might want to and it might be the right thing for you, but sometimes it might have more impact in ways that are less helpful and you might want to try out a different pattern. And I think we might've looked at working pattern and problem solving that or negotiating with work about trying different approaches and different working weeks to see what was more manageable and more sustainable. Lizzie: Yeah, I remember doing that. And also remembering you helping me a lot with being able to actually have time off work before I was forced to by my body. So, I used to get to the point where I was completely exhausted or in such agony that I couldn't move. And that would be the point when I'd phone in sick, but I think we did a lot of work looking at what my body was doing, thinking about, actually would it be helpful to have some time off before I get to that point rather than waiting until, you know, I need to end up in hospital or something, and giving myself permission to relax every now and then and prioritise my body and that really helped me. Helen: There's something there about finding a balance, whether it's a work life balance or a fun and effort balance, or a, I don't know, resting and doing things balance, but there's something about finding a way of managing your activity and energy levels and ending up actually being able to do more rather than pushing it beyond what your body could manage and then having to take enforced rest at a time, which was already kind of too late in terms of the symptoms. So I'm hearing what you were working on together was about managing day to day life as well as other pieces of work that was specifically to do with resolving incidents or traumas that had happened in the past. So you were fitting a lot into therapy sessions. It sounds quite busy. Lizzie: Yeah, it was, it was useful. Helen: And I wonder, looking back on it, you've already told us that doing that repeatedly going over the traumatic event was one of the hardest things that you've had to do. Was there anything else that you found really challenging that you and Bex agreed on, but you found it really challenging? Lizzie: I think probably what I've just been talking about, about having time off work, I think I was quite resistant to that. I think I was scared to have time off work and to prioritise my health. At that point I'd just been diagnosed with POTS, I'd had a long-term absence from work and was feeling really guilty about that. Obviously as a teacher there's an added level because you've got your students who don't necessarily understand why you're not there. I was a secondary school teacher, so I did actually talk to some of them about my health conditions a little bit just to give them context, but some of particularly the younger ones, the year seven students really struggled with where I'd gone and were worried about me. So I think I had a priority in my mind to be at work and Bex's priority was my wellbeing overall, as well as making sure I had this fulfilled career. And I think I was willing to sacrifice my physical health for my career, but didn't see the big picture of that actually if I do that constantly I'm not going to be able to do this job anymore anyway, which did end up being the case naturally because of the way my health progressed. But that wasn't because of me pushing it. That was just because it got to that point. And when I did have to come to that point where I needed to medically retire, the work we had done ended up setting me up for that. And, I'm not saying as well that my, you know, the work we did in CBT was it. I've had more CBT, I had another round of CBT in the pandemic. Afterwards, I needed to have some more support because obviously all of this stuff to do with the pandemic and I was shielded. So I was actually picked as one of the most vulnerable people in society. And that was scary and brought up all this confusion about, Oh, I'm really ill. Like they, they actually believe me, the government messaged me, they told me I'm ill, you know, it scared me. And then I've also had a round of EMDR as well, which was focused on childhood trauma as well, which actually did weave its way into the physical health and also why I am so driven in terms of what I want to achieve as well and in terms of accepting my health conditions. But I would say that CBT helped me get to the point where I'm at now, where I'm medically retired in one way. I still do my content creation work. I still work as a speaker, so I will work a couple of times a month doing talks, and I am able to do that in a way where I'm still driven to help people, and I'm still driven to get that out that message out to people, but I spend most of my time in bed and that's okay and I can do a bit of both and if something needs to go because my health needs to take priority, then it does. Helen: I'm really curious to hear about that, the things that you still put into practice now from what you've learned from the CBT and giving yourself permission to rest so that you can do things that you care about, things that you value. Can you tell us more about the key things from what you've learned from CBT that you still use the most? Lizzie: It's a combination of things really, I use things from all of the rounds of CBT I think I've had, from the first round I still use some of the mindfulness techniques, I struggled to use those when I was really depressed. I think I was most depressed during the pandemic. I think that really, you know, everybody struggled, I think, during the pandemic but my depression got really bad and those techniques didn't work so well. But, for example, if I'm in a hospital waiting room, I will use those mindfulness techniques to try and just remind myself I'm safe. It's not that I'm going to be admitted to hospital immediately. Sometimes that's like a genuine fear that I think they're going to kidnap me. But I use those mindfulness techniques still there. I think with the second round of CBT, when we did the narrative therapy, I think that just genuinely changed me internally in terms of the way I think about those memories, and I've also learned to give myself permission to be kind to myself. And I think that is just something that it was like a switch that, that turned on when we did the sessions. I don't know when it happened, but that switch is still on most of the time. Sometimes it turns back off again, and sometimes I have to stop. And actually either talk to a friend and they have to talk to me about some things and I'll then parrot back to them the things that I learned in CBT or sometimes it's just me quietly thinking to myself and thinking, no, it is okay for me to have time off. It's important to prioritise my body. And I'm not saying I do that all the time. I definitely don't. I still struggle with, you know, anxiety. I still have suicidal thoughts sometimes it's horrible, but I'm able to cope with those in a way that allows me to function a lot, lot better. Helen: Thank you, Lizzie. And, if it's okay, I do want to just pick up on that. You said that you still get suicidal thoughts sometimes. Can you tell us a little bit about how you make sure that you stay safe when that happens? Lizzie: For me, I very much don't actually want to kill myself and I never have. It's never been that I have suicidal thoughts in that way. It's that I think it's more to do with the fact that I'm exhausted with the battle going on in my mind. I'm exhausted with having to fight the negative side of my thoughts that's telling me, you know, you're useless, you're ill, you might as well give up. Those sorts of thoughts come into my mind. And my friends actually nicknamed that voice, Karen. So I apologise to anybody called Karen. it's one of those things that's picked up on the internet, but we've just called her Karen and so it's just helps me sometimes to think, Oh no, that's Karen speaking. It's not me. And so I'll sometimes have those thoughts, but now I'm at the point where I can just disregard them and they'll come in and I'll go, that's horrible. And then I'll carry on and it'll go away. And sometimes I have darker moments, but it would never get to the point where I'd actually hurt myself because I've got people I can talk to, I've got the techniques I learned in CBT to draw back on. I also have things in my life that I care about and I want to live for, and I can remind myself of those. It is difficult having physical health conditions. When you're living in pain, you're in bed for days on end, months on end. I, you know, I've had periods where I have been in bed for months on end and people listening will have had the same and it's horrible but it's just about looking at those little tiny things in a day that make the day worth living still, even if it's just having a nice cup of tea. And I think for me, those are the things that keep me going, but it's not easy and I think that's the thing with CBT and any sort of talking therapy is I don't think it's about completely eliminating any, you know, any trace of you having mental health problems. It's not that. It's about training you to live with them in a different way. And for me, I feel much more safe in my life. I feel like I can cope with those thoughts, and I've accepted that is not a nice part of me but it's something that is natural for me because of the pain I live in and because of the difficult things I've gone through and I'm not going to act on them, but they just, it's just there. Helen: Thank you, Lizzie. And I just want to come back to Bex about that as well. And just hear what Bex is thinking about what you've just said about carrying on living with difficult days, difficult weeks, difficult months and really difficult thoughts. Bex: Yeah, I think you've shared the kind of toll it takes to live with the extreme pain and tiredness that come with your conditions and the uncertainty and the sort of natural kind of phenomena really of living with those experiences and how you kind of navigate those really well now in terms of accepting, in terms of acknowledging what you're experiencing, but also putting them in perspective and focusing on stuff that's really important to you. And you know, that might be small things if you're really unwell, but I know from working with you from both that time and more recently that you do so well at sharing how you're feeling, at reaching out to people that you have a really positive relationship with, that you're actively managing those things so well when it is difficult and that's really fantastic to see. And it's really helpful how open you are about those things for other people who feel like that it's really valuable, thank you, Lizzie. I guess the other thing I would say that maybe we haven't mentioned is that I've observed over time as well is the way you interact with medical professionals now. I don't know if you want to say something about that, but there's been a real difference in terms of, I guess, assertiveness or handling those relationships really well. So I don't know if that's something you wanted to reflect on. Lizzie: Yeah, definitely, I feel like it's important to mention that actually, but I also did want to just say that you mentioned that I've been really good at reaching out and opening up to friends. And I think that is another thing that I got from CBT actually, because like I said, I didn't tell a lot of people that I was close to about what happened in the hospital and I did used to be a lot more closed off when it came to talking about my health conditions and I think I just thought I was annoying people when I talked about it, and one of the things I learned with CBT was that the people who choose to be in my life care about me, and that's why they choose to be in my life. And so they want to help me. And I was reminded that obviously I want to do that for them. So obviously why wouldn't they do that for me? And so that helped me to reach out to people. And it's not necessarily that I can always reach out. I think that's an important thing to say as well. A lot of the time, my friends are the ones that reach out to me when I'm in a difficult position. I think that's really important because sometimes when you're in the darkest sort of places, you're really not able to even see that you need that help. But I think the important thing is that if somebody in your life reaches out to you and asks you how you are, you're honest with them. And I think that's the thing that changed for me is that I used to just be like, yeah, yeah, fine, carrying on, you know, stiff upper lip type attitude. And I think it's really important to be honest and be authentic with the people in your life. The other thing that you mentioned as well was about the health professionals. So not my proudest moment, but I did actually once punch a nurse. Not like, you know, like a proper thump, but it was a reflex reaction because I was so anxious in hospital. So she was, I think she was taking my blood or giving me an injection. And I was so anxious that my reflex was to just thump her on the arm. I felt so guilty because I've never, I'm not like that at all. I mean, hopefully you both, you've both interacted with me and you know, I'm not the sort of person to go around beating people up. So she was very professional and she just carried on completely like unfazed and I was like, I'm so sorry, I can't believe I just did that. She was like, don't worry, it happens all the time. I was like, wow, she really shouldn't have to deal with that. But I used to be so anxious around medical professionals. I didn't trust them. With that nurse it was slightly different, but I genuinely didn't trust medical professionals. I still don't to a certain degree because I've been misdiagnosed a lot. I've had lots of conversations with doctors who don't know as much about the condition as I do. I've had conversations with doctors who haven't read my notes. You know, recently I went into an investigation, it was important that they knew that I was immunocompromised, and he was like, Oh, you're not immune. You're not on any immunosuppressants are you? And I was like, Oh, only the three that I'm on. Yeah. And you know, that happens a lot. But I have learned to be more assertive in those sorts of situations. And now I'm able to communicate in a way where I can get across what I need to get across without having a huge panic attack. Because what used to happen is I used to just get completely overwhelmed and then I had to leave the room, or I just bursts into tears. And it does still happen. Even recently I've had a couple of things that happen where I get really overwhelmed, but it's nowhere near the level that it used to be. And now I've got again, another toolkit where I know what to do before an appointment. At the start of the appointment, I explain to the medical professional, you know, these are the mental health conditions I've got, I'm making you aware because this might happen. If this does happen, this is what I would like you to do and it's usually just a case of I just want them to be quiet and let me just process for a couple of minutes and then I'm usually fine. And then after the appointment as well, I've also got some things that I do afterwards to make sure that I'm as okay as I can be, but it's again, still difficult. It's not like it's taken it away and it's still something that I will always find hard and I need support with. So a lot of the time I'll have somebody come with me to appointments because I've recognised that is a need for me. And it's something that I can't do by myself, but that is part of me dealing with it. That's part of me managing it. And I think that's something that I've learned because of doing CBT and doing therapy in general. And it's changed my life. And it's helped me to get the diagnosis and also the treatments that I need. So it's been really important for my physical health as well. Helen: Thank you very much, Lizzie. I'm thinking one of the things I would like is for people listening to hear what are the most important things that you would like them to know. And I'm going to go to Bex first. If there are people out there who are having similar experiences, whether it's long-term health conditions, whether it's having panic attacks, whether they've experienced trauma, struggling to manage what's happening to them? What are the key things that you would want people to know from what we've been talking about today, Bex? Bex: I guess the key thing I'd want someone to know that if you're really struggling with those things, that matters and that there is support available where we can work out, you know, maybe some things can't be changed, maybe some things have to be adjusted or two, but the things that are possible to make different, maybe some ways of responding that can support you with what you're experiencing. With trauma, I guess I'd want people to know that there are treatments that work for trauma that can make a vast difference in terms of re-experiencing and levels of anxiety associated with that past event. And I'd want people to know that they're entitled to that support and it's available for them if they want it and if they're ready for it because it might not be the right time. And that's entirely their decision. And often, you know with physical health we see quite a lot of physical health problems with people who've had chronic stress for a very long time as well and that there's an interaction there, and that we're interested to understand more. Helen: Thank you. And Lizzie, what would your kind of key messages be, would you say? Lizzie: I think the biggest message I want to get across is that it's not a replacement for the treatment that you'd get for your physical health conditions. It's something that can complement it and help to make life easier for you, but it's not about being something that you do instead of another treatment. And I think if you ever are in a conversation with a doctor where they suggesting that, so they're suggesting they're going to stop investigating and just send you to talking therapy, I would say it's important to advocate for yourself and say, you know, that's fine, but what's the differential diagnosis here and what else can we do to investigate what else might be going on? Or, you know, I'm happy to try that, but I would also like a plan for if this doesn't help me, what can I do after that? I think that's really important. The other thing that I would say as well is, I would say to somebody, if you are thinking about the possibility that doing CBT or some sort of talking therapy might help you, the likelihood is it probably will, because I don't think people would be considering it unless they're in the position where they probably would benefit from it. And the other thing I would say as well is I got very lucky with having Bex as my therapist, and I think if you have started some sort of therapy or you're going to start and you don't feel like you gel or mesh with the person that you are speaking with, I think it's important to try and see if you can maybe change to somebody else, or be open with that therapist. You know, with Bex, if I hadn't have been open with the fact that I was anxious about her saying, you know, about the connection between physical and mental health, we might never have gelled, you know, that might have really stopped the relationship from progressing. I could have just never turned up to the next session if I hadn't been open about it. So I think that's the other thing is if you're feeling like something's not right, be open, and I think the vast majority of therapists go into the profession because they are genuinely caring people. I think it naturally attracts those kind of people. So the likelihood is they probably will want to try and help you and if it doesn't feel right after that, then try and find somebody else and see if it can find something that fits. Helen: Thank you so much. I'd just like to say how much I appreciate you both coming to speak with me today. Bex and Lizzie, I'm really grateful for your input. Thank you very much indeed. Bex: And thank you so much for having us. It's been really lovely to reflect on that, the experience together, and it was a joy to work with Lizzie. Lizzie: Thank you so much. And yeah, I'm so grateful for honestly, having been able to have the experience and the experiences that I've had. I'm very lucky to have had the support that I've had. So thank you Bex for that. And it's great to be able to talk about it and hopefully this might help some of the people as well. So I really hope that if anybody's listening, who needs some support out there that this helps a little bit. Helen: Thank you. So, our listeners will find more information on our show page and, I'm just going to say one more thank you to you both. Thank you both. Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected], that's [email protected]. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. 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In this episode of Let's Talk About CBT, Helen Macdonald speaks with Pete Moore, author and creator of The Pain Toolkit, about his journey of living with long-term pain. Pete shares his experiences of how he was able to move from being overwhelmed by pain to learning CBT techniques and strategies which helped him learn to manage it effectively, regain control, and even help others do the same. Useful links: The Pain Toolkit website Live well with pain website Listen to our sister podcasts: Let's Talk About CBT - Practice Matters and Let's Talk About CBT - Research Matters: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Find us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babcppodcasts/ Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was edited by Steph Curnow   Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't.  I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies   Today, I'm speaking with Pete Moore, who'll be sharing with us his journey living with long term pain.  Many years ago, Pete took part in an inpatient pain management program, which among other things uses cognitive and behavioural techniques to learn how to manage long term symptoms of pain.  Pete will tell us about his journey and where he is today in not only managing his own pain and staying active, but also how he helps other people to learn key ways of living successfully with long term pain.  Pete, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners? Pete: Yes, well, hi everyone. My name's Pete Moore and I'm the author and originator of the Pain Toolkit. I just want to say, Helen, thanks very much for inviting me along to do this podcast and I'm really looking forward to having a chat with you. Helen: That's great. Thank you very much, Pete. I think a good place to start would be if I ask you just to tell me a bit about how you ended up living with long term pain. Pete: Yeah, it's, such a familiar story actually that of mine. Back then in the early nineties, I had back pain and such and I used to sort of manage it by taking over the counter medication, et cetera, or just having a rest. But I didn't really do a lot to help myself. I didn't really know what to do with it. I just, you know, it's like most people just get on with life. But I think it was about 92, back then I was a painter and decorator, and I was painting a house over in Windsor Castle. Anyway, I went home that night and the next day I couldn't get out of bed. I found out later on that I'd prolapsed some discs in my back, I think, two in the lower, and one in the middle. And I was pretty scared, really frightened, et cetera. And I found it difficult even going to the GP, really. And anyway, long story short, I was given medication and anti inflammatories but little was I to know that back then there was, you know, managing back pain or managing pain itself was like being put in something called the medical model. And I wasn't really given any guidance around what I could do for myself. It was just, "take these pills. If they haven't worked, come back and see me". So I wasn't quite on Christmas card terms with the GP, but, you know, I was around there every month or so. Anyway, I had to stop working et cetera. And for me, movement was more pain. So I stopped moving. I was sent to the physiotherapist, but back then I don't think that they was quite well up to speed with managing pain or back pain and I was given exercises to do and which say do 10 of these, 10 of these, 15 of those and, and as you know yourself, when you've got subacute pain, as I did, then, I've got up to five or six repetitions and the pain went up so much I thought this can't be right. So, to me, I learned that, back then the exercise equalled more pain. So I just stopped moving. Helen: So I'm hearing you got lots of back pain. You did what most people would do, which is go and see your GP and you got prescribed medicines. And you said, medical models. So it's very much, you go and see somebody and they're going to prescribe some treatment and you expect to get better. But what you're telling me is that the medicines, the physiotherapy actually ended up probably not helping very much. And actually you were still struggling with the pain. And you also said that you were really scared as well. Pete: I guess I couldn't see any future for myself really and I was getting depressed and I just, I had no plan, you know, that was it and at the time I was only I think in my mid-forties, something like that back then. And I thought what's my future? I couldn't see any future for myself, and I went through a pretty, pretty sticky time really, you know. People that used to call and say how you doing, or they would pop around, but it was the same old story and then even people stopped ringing me, stopped calling me because all I could talk about was my back pain really. And they probably got their own problems to deal with, you know? And I did look around for seeing people privately, you know, the osteopaths and chiropractors and all them sort of guys and, and all in all I spent, I did actually spend all my savings really and, I was a doctor shopper, I was a therapy shopper and looking for something to fix me, and little was I to know that I had to learn how to fix myself. Helen: So I'm hearing it was having a huge impact on every area of your life. It changed, you know, sort of whether you could go to work. It was changing whether you could see your friends. It was changing how you felt about yourself and your mood went down. You felt angry, anxious, all of those things. So tell me how you started to change how you approach trying to manage this, and moved away from, what did you say? Being a therapy shopper? Pete: Yeah, therapy shopper, doctor shopper, serial shopper, serial health care. I was just looking for someone to fix me because as a child, you know, you don't feel well. So you go to the doctors, the doctor gives you something or do something. And then after 10 days or so you feel better, and you get on with your life. But, when it comes to long term, this back pain, it wasn't. I had a couple of turning points, really. One was, I thought, well, I'm not getting anywhere with the healthcare professionals. So, I always remember a little saying I learned years ago that, if you want to learn something to teach it, and I thought, I need to be around people like me, you know? So, I started up a back pain support group and I was quite surprised. I was contacted a local newspaper and said I'm starting this up, can you publicise it for me? And, I was quite surprised, the hall I booked, it was only, I think it's supposed to hold about 20 people, but I think it was over 50 people showed up, like, you know. They was all like me, you know, struggling, looking for answers and that's the thing we wasn't, none of us were getting answers. Anyway, someone told me about a woman in Norwich or Norfolk who'd been on a pain management program in London called Input and it really worked wonders with her. And so I contacted them asking if someone can come along to speak to the group about what they did, et cetera. Well that was, that was the turning point and a really nice lady called Amanda Williams. She was a clinical, she is a clinical psychologist. And she'd come along and spoke to the group about, you know, learning how to pace the activities, about graded activities, moving will actually help your pain, et cetera. Really positive, information. I thought this is, this is right up my street. This is for me. And so I applied to go on the course and sadly it was the NHS so I had to wait till, 96, but in between that time, I was really getting depressed as well. And, on the, I always remember the date as it's my birthday, 31st December 94. I got so down with my pain, I had some friends wanted to come and take me out for the night, being New Year's Eve and my birthday and stuff like that. And that day I had my full quota of medication. I said, I just can't go out like, you have to go on your own. And that night I did actually consider ending my life really, because I just couldn't see any future for myself, you know. I think the only thing that kept me going really was knowing that I was on a waiting list to go to the Input program. And the program gave me the, not only the tools and the skills, but it gave me the confidence to manage my pain myself. Helen: So, what you were saying there, Pete, about reaching a point where really you almost lost hope. Even though you'd done everything you could and you'd started a support group even, and found other people with similar experiences, you were trying everything you could, and then you did find something that you've described as a turning point for you, but you still had to wait a long time for that. I mean, I'm very pleased that you're still with us and I'm particularly pleased that you've got this opportunity to tell our listeners about, you know, how you did reach that turning point and how it helped you. So please do tell us what happened when you went to the Input pain management program. Pete: Well, it was an inpatient program. So, it was spread over two weeks I think the very, the first day, it was the best day for me because, Charles Pyler, who was the medical director at a time, he went around all the people in the group. There was 18 of us there, I think. And, and we were split into two groups of nine and, but he went around to everybody in the group asking them how long they'd lived with pain. And I think for memory, it was nearly 400 years. You know, of the 18 people. But he said, he said something really profound and it still sticks with me. He said, "we believe your pain", because when you live with pain and you're seeing endless people and nothing seems to be working. You start thinking that people are not believing you, you know, that, perhaps you're imagining it and things like that. And, we're malingerers and stuff like that. When he, when Charles Pylor said that, I thought, yeah, I'm, I'm home finally, you know, I feel this is my place where I'm going to be my place of learning. And I embraced it because to me that was the last chance saloon. And it was all different there, so when we was given exercises to do, it wasn't, you know, do ten of these, do ten of these, you know, like the old days. It was like do this and then, cut it back by, you know, say, for example, you did, you know, get sitting up from a chair, you could do six, cut it back, you know, just do three, then add on one each day sort of thing like, you know, it was proper graded exercises. So not only was the, with the, doing the exercises and stretching and stuff like that, but the other important thing I learned was about pacing. Now, to me, you know, we've all, everybody knows the term pacing, where you just pace yourself, you'll be alright. But what is pacing? That's the, that was the question, you know, we were asked, well what is pacing? And what I learned was pacing is taking a break before you think you need to. Because see what, what us people with pain or even, even long-term conditions, what we do is we use our pain or our symptoms as a guide. So let's say for example, you're walking, etc. And then when you, uh, when the pain starts or increases, you're thinking, oh, I better take a break now. And what I learned that, that wasn't pain management, that was the pain managing me. And through learning pacing or taking a break before I thought I needed to, actually allows me to actually do more throughout the day without increasing my pain or my symptoms. And I'm still doing it now, I'm still pacing myself. So that I, allows me to do, you know, do what I do, et cetera, and enjoy life. Helen: Thank you Pete. So what I've just heard there is there was something really important about being believed, you know, that that was how you were greeted is that actually, yes, we believe your experience of pain. We believe you. And we don't think that you're making it up or exaggerating. We know that if you say it hurts, it hurts. We believe you. But there's also something really important about getting more active, managing how much activity and rest that you do, doing a bit less than you thought you could do actually overall helped you to do more in the end. And there's something important about having other like-minded people around you, people with similar experiences. And while inpatient pain management programs, there still are some, there's also outpatient primary care pain management group settings now which weren't available in the nineties when this was your experience, but the principles are still very much the same about learning to get the balance right and, learning to live well with the pain rather than trying to make it go away, which hasn't worked generally. Pete: As I said, back in the day, it was like, movement meant more pain. But what I learned through, you know- 'cause the thing is, once you leave the program, you've got to keep your exercises going and stuff like that. And that can be difficult as well as I found out.  Whereas back then exercise was not my enemy, but not my best friend either. But little was I to know that keeping stretching and exercising and moving, et cetera, is my best buddy. I'm pleased to say that since about a year after the program, I think it was, it was 97, that was the last time I took any pain medication. So for me, I still do me stretching. I'll do me some yoga in the morning and then I'll go down the gym and then do some more strength and exercises and stuff like that. And, to me, doing exercises and stretching and whatnot, yoga, tai chi, that to me is the equivalent of taking meds you know, but without the side effects, of all the pain meds and whatnot. I think the most important thing of what I learned, what I have learned over the years was that the skills and the tools that I learned on the input program or the pain management program have been transferable. So when I hit 50, I started getting arthritis in my joints and my hands, knees and whatnot. So again, using the skills and tools from the Input program and, and in recent years when I was diagnosed with prostate cancer, again, I'm still able to dip into that knowledge fountain of self-management. Well, what can I do to help myself like, and, you know, even with the oncologist, like, you know, when I'm talking to them and I'm saying well, at least this is what I'm doing, they seem a bit shocked like, you know. But it's only because of what I learned back in 96 that their life skills that have been transferable for me over the years and as I've become an older person now. I'm 70 years old. Helen: Well, congratulations, Pete. Pete: It's a miracle, you know. I've got a 70 year old body, but you know, my brain's still ticking over in my thirties, like, you know. Helen: Absolutely. And, and I think, what I'm hearing though, Pete, is that actually you're, you're doing better physically at the age of 70 than you were in your mid-forties when all this started to happen to you. And you've gone from, you know, really finding it difficult to move, being in a lot of pain, taking all the pain relief you could to learning how to stay active, do your exercises and lots of different types of exercise. And that it applies to any kind of long term pain. It's not just back pain. This, this applies to any kind of long-term pain and you've kept doing it over the years. So, so you've mentioned yoga and Tai Chi and going down the gym. Tell us what you do down the gym. Pete: I was always a lot of what I call a gymophobic, really. My partner at the time Kim, she was a yoga teacher and she would encourage me to go to the gym like and I just thought all the good looking dudes go down there, like all that, you know, ones with big, big guns and lycra and whatnot. And, you know, for people that don't see me, I'm no Chippendale like, you know. But the thing is, I got into the gym and although I was exercising at home, but now I found out when I started going to the gym, the pain levels dropped off even more. I thought, whoa. And to me it was, meeting other dudes as well, meeting other people. And, for me, I go down the gym and I'm only a little bit of a routine. It's not a bonkers routine, but I go down there at six o'clock in the morning. I'm a bit of an early bird, but I do me yoga about 20 minutes, 30 minutes of yoga before go down there. Then, I'll do some weights, because of the treatment I'm having from, the cancer. I've got to strengthen my bones because it's a hormone treatment I'm having. So, I'm prone to osteoporosis, I think, I think it's called. So I have to strengthen my muscles. And, but then I'll go, there's like a bit of another level there, so I'm out of the way of people, but I'll go up there and I'll do again it's a bit more stretching, but I mainly do all my Tai Chi up there. They all laugh at me, because of all the weird movements I do, but I don't care, you know, I'm enjoying myself, and, you know, for people that, Oh, Tai Chi, I do come out there perspiring, like, you know, it can be a workout itself, but for me it helps me with a breathing. I've always had asthma as a child since I was a kid, so it helps me with a breathing, but relaxation. And every time I come away from the gym, you know what, I'm really, I'm really a chilled out dude. I really feel great. It's great, you know, great for my head. And it's funny enough, I, I ask people, so when I see a newbie down at the gym, I, I have a little chat and I say, why'd you come to the gym? And even the young dudes like, I'm quite surprised they say, I come here from my head and, how it's, how exercising helps their mental, health, et cetera. The other thing I do as well, I'm lucky where I live, it's quite a nice area, so I'll go out for walks and stuff like that. I call them pacing walks, so, you know, I'm not walking for miles and miles and then, but for me, it's a nice way of relaxing as well. Helen: Again, what I'm hearing there Pete is about the importance of getting the activity right and the range of activity between doing the yoga and stretching, Tai Chi. I should perhaps share that I also do Tai Chi, which helps me with my balance and helps with my joint pain as well. But you also do the strength training, you're looking after your bones and your muscles, with those exercises as well. And I was really curious to hear what you're saying that over the years, the way you think about it has changed an awful lot as well. how you think about what the pain means and what you do about it is different from what it was all those years ago before you encountered the Input program. And did the program actually do anything specific about thinking, or is that something that's happened over the years with experience? Pete: I suppose there was a lot of things going on, because pain does mix up your thinking. Your medication is changing your thinking, you know, especially on the, the strong stuff like the strong opioids and whatnot. So you get fuzzy thinking and so, if you're lucky enough to get on a pain management program or, you know, being outpatient or an inpatient, when you get to those sort of places, you are one mixed up person cause there's so much going on. Your thinking is all over shop, you know. So those two weeks went like a rocket anyway, but it's the keeping up when you go. I was lucky enough that I went back to the back pain support group that I was running at the time. And, I know, I know then, that I, that was how I started getting into doing other things like, putting a mini pain management program together. But for me, it's, I think for a lot of people, when I was talking to Paul, I don't know if you know, Paul Watson used to be, like a physiotherapist, I think up at Leicester and he was, he was in the area a few weeks ago and he's a bell ringer now, amongst other things, and I was chatting with him and we were talking about this, about when people leave the program and he said  before people leave the program, they have to have a sense of purpose. And that really struck a chord with me, really, because I don't think people, it's like, well, you've done the course, off you go sort of thing, yeah, and what is their purpose? What is their, what are they going back to? And that's the importance of setting goals and action plans and stuff like that. So I was lucky I went back to the support group and so I was keeping myself busy in that way. That was my purpose. But I think a lot of people drop back into the old ways of, you know, they're thinking because they've had that, that, that period of time, whether it's, over spread over two weeks, three weeks or whatever, or longer, but what happens after that? I think that's where people can fall back into their old ways and I think if you're a healthcare professional listening to this, it's about before, before people leave you, it's about, they have to ask, well, what is their short, medium goals, long term goals. What is our purpose? What are we going to be doing for the rest of our life sort of thing, you know, obviously a day at a time. Helen: So one of the key messages we want our listeners to take away with them from hearing what you're saying is what do you want in the long term? What, what are your goals and what's the plan that's going to help you meet those goals? And I know that, people who work. you know, sort of with people in a similar situation may well be used to doing a thing called a relapse prevention plan or a long-term wellness and recovery plan or something like that. And you've told us about, you keep your activity levels up, you pace yourself, you do have a sense of purpose. You've got things that are meaningful, that matter to you in your life. And that's really important. So there's something about having that, you know, what's important to you and being clear about what you're going to do. So, what would you say to people, because I mean, however well you manage it, there's going to be bad days, aren't there? There's going to be, you know, you'll get a flare up or, or a severe increase at some point, however well you do. What would you say about that? Pete: Well, setbacks are normal. It's as simple as that. we're overdoers, you know, people with pain, in fact, people with long term conditions, we're overdoers. Hey, listen, we want to keep up with everybody else like, you know. And we don't want to stand out from the crowd and, and so what it tends to do, we, we overdo things, we overextend ourselves and the chances are that, it's going to increase our pain or our symptoms, et cetera. So it's important to have a setback plan. Think of it, think of your setback plan like a spare tire on a car. So you're in your car, you get a puncture, if you can change the wheel yourself you do it, if you can't, you wait for the breakdown. But the thing is then you put your spare, spare tire on, spare wheel, and off you go, carry on with your journey. And it's the same thing with us lot, you know, we need it. We need a setback plan because we're overdoers. I'm still an overdoer. I have to police myself that way. I'm not overcooking myself. I can get carried away, especially when I'm working in the garden, etc. So, it's when we do, when we do have a setback, pain increases, it's like, well, what's our plan? You know, so, so I can get back in the driving seat as soon as possible. Helen: Okay. So, so setback planning is about. Yeah, you might need to slow down. You might need to take a step back a bit, but you don't stop. You don't go back to square one and you get back on to your plan, you know, sort of after a short space of time where you perhaps had to rein it in a little bit. But you still get on with your plan. You still move towards your goals. Pete: Yeah I'll always suggest to people that they just cut everything down by half and then gradually like pace it up again, carry on keeping active, do you still do as you're stretching, think about how you're stretching, say, so if you're holding a stretch you got used to you holding stretch for 10 seconds, perhaps just hold it for five seconds. I always think chop everything in half like, you know, it's like pacing, you know, like. People say to me, well, you know, taking a break before you think you need to, well, when's, well, when's that? When you set a baseline, let's say you can walk 100 metres and then the pain starts, well take a break at 50. Chop everything in half because everybody knows what half of something is. That's the same thing with a setback plan. Just chop out all your activities that came down by half and then slowly increase it. At a pace that suits you. Take your time because at the end of the day, we don't want to lose our confidence again, because, you know, people in pain, we, where we were can do people end up being can't do people. So it's about keep being a can do person, but do it in a pain self-management way. Helen: Thank you, Pete. So being a can-do person, Pete, you put together the pain toolkit. So tell us about that. How did that come about and what's involved in it? Pete: Well the Pain Toolkit had come around just by, just pure chance really. After I'd come off the pain management program, I thought there wasn't anything in my area. So I thought, well, okay, well I'll do one myself then. So I put together a six-week course for the people in the support group. In fact, it was lucky really, because by then I bumped into another lady called Maggie Hayward. She'd been on a pain management program in Surrey, I think, a few years earlier. And, she was, like me, she was so impressed with it and she put together a video for all the pain, all the stretches and exercises from a pain management program. So the, the program that we put together was called Fighting Back, and we used the stretching and exercises from the video so the people bought the video and they could do those at home, but the physio that we hired showed them, made sure they were doing it the correct way, et cetera. So, after that, the, I don't know word got around really. Someone had contacted me about some, a German company wanted, I think it was a, it was a, a pharma company and they, they wanted to hear from a patient apparently. None of these managers had ever heard from a pain patient. So I went, they invited me over to Germany to, to do a talk which I did to their managers. I don't think they were that interested, but I, I was wild, you know, I mean, I've never been out of the country sort of thing, with back pain, et cetera, you know, so it was a bit of adventure and a bit of apprehension as well. But then someone else in, in the company had heard about my trip there and, they were putting together like a website for healthcare professionals to learn about pain management. They asked me to write a module for it called managing pain from the patient's perspective, and so I put together, I wrote this module about managing paint, but while I was writing it, remember I was a painter and decorator, so what tools did I need to be a painter and decorator, and I thought people who paint, we need some tools as well, you know. So I started writing together, put together some tools, I think there was about, initially there was eight, and then I was showing it to healthcare professionals I knew and stuff, and they said we need to include this, that, and the other, and what not, and then all of a sudden The Pain Toolkit come around and by then I'd started working in the NHS on something called the Expert Patients Program. I was a trainer and I was at a meeting in Cambridge, and there was a lady there called Angela Hawley. She was in charge of long-term conditions at the Department of Health. And I just took, took a chance on her. So I went up to her at the end, I said, she was doing a talk there about long term conditions. And I just said, oh, hello, you don't know me, but I'm Pete and I've written this. She said, oh, yeah, I've seen, I've heard about this. This is really great. Where can I get some copies from? I said, I can't afford to print it. And, she said, I would do that for you. So I said, how many do you need? I said, oh, 5, 000. That'll probably keep you going for a year. She said, okay. Anyway, it went so bananas like that in the first year, a hundred thousand copies had been sent out. Healthcare professionals were using it with their patients like as a guide and to get them started in self-management. And I think the second year they printed off another 100, 000 and I think the last year was about 40k or something like that. So I was just, you know, one of these things in the right place at the right time. Then I got invited back to Germany again, because this, a guy called Reinhard Sitzel, he'd heard about me and he'd heard about The Pain Toolkit, and he was interested in hearing more about it, so I went back to Germany and had a chat with him, and it turns out we were really good buddies, and he got his daughter to translate into German, he then sent it off to his buddy in Switzerland, so to get it printed off. But as you know, in Switzerland, they just can't print things off in German. It had to go into, French and Italian. So now there's a German, English, da, da, da, you know, and then anyway, long story, short, over the years that company has been, it's all been translated into different languages, Spanish, Norwegian, Russian, Portuguese. I can't remember all of them. I think even the Aussies, the Australians, they did a couple of versions, a Chinese version and a Greek version like, you know, so it's just, it just went a bit wild really like. But it's just a very simple booklet to help people get, get off the start line really, and the healthcare professionals like using it because it's like a little mini, like a mini workbook, so they give them the booklet to have a read through, then circle two or three of the tools you want help with right now and that's what they do. And then, so, see the patient's doing something, they've got to do something. So, they've read it, they've circled things off, they take it back to their healthcare worker, and then they work through it so when they feel confident with those two or three tools, they then choose another two or three. I mean, it's not rocket science. It's just easy peasy lemon squeezy as I call it, you know. Helen: Sounds amazing, Pete. It really does sound amazing that you've put together some practical tips for living well with pain, and now it's, it's gone well, global really if it's in Australia and all over Europe and everything. And you said that people circle the tools that they want to use. Can you give us a couple of examples of what the tools are? Pete: You know, I'll tell you what I'll go through them with you if you like if that would be useful? So Tool One is accept that you've got persistent pain and begin to move on. I think that's a, that's a tough one for a lot of people because, you know, to think that. that you accept that pain is going to be with you. I look at pain as being a bit of an unwanted passenger in your life, you know. And it's about accepting the fact that, as I had to accept it, that pain was going to be with me for a long period of time. As it's turned out, it'll probably be with me until towards the end of my life, but it's acceptance that, is going to be with you for so long, but it's not going to be…You see, I'm back in the driving seat, it'll be around with me, but it's not in charge anymore, you know, I'm the boss like, and I've got on with my life. So, but for a lot of people acceptance can be a tough one. So that's tool one. Tool Two is about getting involved, building a support team. Now I've got to be honest with you, I've not actually met anyone yet who's actually been where most people are struggling with persistent pain and they sort it out on their own. We need that team and it's like I always think, think of yourself like a bit like a football coach. You choose people who you want in your team to get so that you can be a winning side, et cetera, you know? So, and the same thing as well, back then, you know, I had to think about who do I want in my team? I needed someone on my side, so it needed a selection. Perhaps I need a few healthcare professionals that I could go to, obviously supportive input. I needed people, people around me as well, like friends and family, et cetera, to be there to support, so it's about, getting involved in the building, building a support team. Tool three is about pacing. I always say to people, if you don't remember anything else about any of my presentations, remember about pacing because pacing allows you to do more throughout the day but without increasing your pain or your symptoms. Tool four is about learning to prioritise and plan out your days because we're all over the shop. You know, we're very erratic, because you've got your medications going on. Doing all your thinking, perhaps you're being pulled in different directions back with family and work commitments and stuff like that. But if you learn to plan and prioritise what actually needs to be done, because again, see, we want to try and keep up with everybody else, but we need to have a little bit of a list. Now, tomorrow, I always say to people make your list the night before and then prioritise it. Well, what can I do and then pace it out throughout the day. Tool five, setting goals and action plans. As I always say to people, if you don't know where you're going, it's unlikely you're going to get there. So, to me, setting goals and action plans is so important because you can look back and learn from what's gone on in the past, but now we're moving forward. I know I always say to people to get them in the hang of setting goals and action plans is, set yourself some fun goals just get you going like, so it could be that you meet a buddy for a coffee or go do something nice, you know, perhaps go to the seaside or something like that. So set your goal, but think about how are you going to achieve that goal like, you know, and when I'm teaching like, there's a little process I'll go through. It's a bit too long to go through it now. But it's a nice little process, about setting goals and action plans. But just keep it simple really. But have fun as well. You know, that's the main thing about self-managing pain is we need to put the F U N in it. Fun, have fun as well. Like, you know, I always call it buy yourself an ice cream from time to time. Tool six is about being patient with yourself because we want to get there and we're in a hurry, you know, because we get a few winters under our belt and we get a bit frustrated, but we've got to be patient learning how to manage pain. You know, it took me a year to get off the meds like, you know, Dave, who I work with now, he's another self-manager, it took him the best part of two or three years to come off the meds like, you know, But we have to be patient with ourselves but sometimes we can be in too much of a hurry. Tool seven is about learning relaxation skills I learnt back in the Input Program A relaxed muscle feels less pain than a tight one or a tense one. So, you know, if I've got to do any journeys now, I do a little, learn to do a little bit of meditation. I learned it from, that's what I learned off of, YouTube, really, of this, Tibetan monk. Because my brain's always ticking over, thoughts coming in, going out, going up and down. You know, I'm all over the shop sometimes. But, yeah, I learned from this little Tibetan monk about meditation, which is concentrating on breathing. You know, just breathing in, breathing out. And he said, that's meditation. I thought, mate, I can do that. Tool Eight is about stretching, exercising. Again, the, the physios nowadays, they call it meaningful movement. The reason why they call it meaningful movement because when you say to someone, you need to learn such an exercise, if they like doing it and they choose to do it, they're more likely to keep it up. Number nine, keep a track of your progress. That's not about a pain diary in such to where you're tracking how much pain you are in during that day because it's not for that's not really helpful, but it's about keeping a diary, it's sometimes just keep a track. I did actually put together something called, how am I today? It's like a little bit a like a report card for themselves. Like, you know, they can say, well, how am I doing? You know, am I doing a stretching? They can show it to their health care worker if they need it. Well, yeah, look, they look like you're struggling there, so perhaps we can work on that a little bit so tracking your process is important. Tool 10, we talked about it already, have a step back plan. Tool 11, going back to teamwork. But teamwork is so paramount it's why I've mentioned it twice in the twelve. And the last one there is keeping it up and putting it into practice really. And the thing is, I've added in recent copies of The Pain Toolkit. I've actually had to learn about being resilient. We have to be resilient, we need to, uh, not toughen up, but we're on a long old journey here, like, and we need to think about it. Helen: Absolutely. So if you were going to say one key message to people out there, maybe they're living with long term pain themselves, or they care about somebody who lives with long term pain, what would you say one key thing to those people out there? Pete: Keep it simple. Simple as that. Get some help, get some support. Yeah. So healthcare professionals, all healthcare professionals are taught something called a medical model. Okay. And sometimes they forget that we haven't, we wasn't sitting beside them in medical school. And, you know, they just overcomplicate things. It's nothing personal. Yeah. It's only observation. I watch them on social media. I think to myself, boy, mate, you know, why are you complicating this? Because when you breaks down pain management, self-management, it ain't got your science and, you know, when I was on the Input Program, and they were talking about the pacing, about taking a break before you think you need to, and I'm sitting here always saying to myself, well, that's common sense in it, but I wasn't doing it, you know, common sense to take a, take a rain check with all of us, you know? Helen: That's a great key message, Pete. So really that message is for the healthcare professionals as well, who are supporting people, hopefully to self-manage their pain and moving away from a, a kind of medical approach, but particularly for the people who live with pain long term, simple, practical skills for managing that and planning ahead to manage it in the long term, actually ends up with you having fun, more quality of life than trying to fight it and use things that don't work. And, I mean, I'm, you know, you know, that I, I work in this area myself. And so, part of my work is doing exactly what you're talking about is helping people to manage living well with their pain and building that confidence and quality of life, despite having that ongoing pain. And with the Pain Toolkit and the other things that you've mentioned, we'll put links onto our show page so that people can follow that up and find out more if they'd like to. But at this point, I would like to say, thank you so much for talking to us here, Pete, it's been great to have this conversation with you, and to hear about how you've come from being really managed by the pain and overwhelmed by it to living such a good quality of life and helping other people to do that as well. Thank you. Pete: Well, thank you. Thanks for inviting me on to do this podcast. Helen: Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected], that's [email protected]. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.  

In this episode of Let's Talk About CBT, host Helen Macdonald speaks with Sarah, Sally, and Leanne about Sarah's experience of having Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) after giving birth. They explore how CBT helped Sarah regain control during a challenging postnatal period, addressing struggles such as insomnia, anxiety, and adjusting to new motherhood. Sarah shares her journey of balancing therapy with the therapeutic benefits of movement and time spent in nature. CBT therapists Sally and Leanne discuss the powerful combination of therapy, physical activity, and connecting with nature for improving mental health.  Useful links: NHS Choices- Insomnia-https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/insomnia/  NHS Guidance on feeling depressed after childbirth: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/support-and-services/feeling-depressed-after-childbirth/ MIND information on how nature can help mental health: https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/tips-for-everyday-living/nature-and-mental-health/how-nature-benefits-mental-health/ For more on CBT the BABCP website is www.babcp.com Accredited therapists can be found at www.cbtregisteruk.com Listen to more episodes from Let's Talk About CBT here. Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced and edited by Steph Curnow   Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen MacDonald, your host. I'm the senior clinical advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies Today I'm very pleased to have Sarah, Sally and Leanne here to talk with me about having CBT, in Sarah's case, when you've recently had a baby and also the value of getting more active and getting outside into nature and how that can help when you're also having CBT. Sarah, would you like to introduce yourself, please? Sarah: Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm, 37 from Sheffield and like I said, just recently had a baby, and she's absolutely wonderful. She is a happy, loud little bundle of joy. I ended up having CBT though, because the experience of having the baby wasn't what I thought it was going to be, I think is the reason. And I, just went a little bit mad, so I got some help. Yeah, I'm normally a very happy, positive, active person. Lots of friends, very sociable, always like to be doing things, always like to be in control and have a plan. I like to know what I'm doing and what everyone else is doing. And all that changed a little bit and I didn't really know what to do about it. So yeah, got some therapy. Helen: Thank you Sarah. So, we'll talk with you a bit more about what that was like. And first, Sally, would you like to just briefly say who you are? Sally: Yeah, so I'm, my name's Sally. I am a Cognitive Behavioural Therapist, working both in the NHS and in, in private practice at the moment. Helen: Thank you. And Leanne, Leanne: Hi, I'm Leanne. and I'm a cognitive behavioural therapist as well. And I also work in the NHS and in private practice with Sally. Helen: Thank you all very much. What we're going to do is ask Sarah to tell us a bit more about, when you use the term mad, perhaps I could ask you to say a little bit more about what was happening for you that made you look for some therapy. Sarah: Wel the short answer to that is I developed insomnia about 12 weeks postnatally, didn't sleep for five days. Baby was sleeping better than most, you know, so it was equally frustrating because there was no real reason I didn't think that I should be awake. And sleep obviously is very important when you've had a baby. As I said, I like to be in control, like to prepare, like to know what's going on. So I did hypnobirthing, I prepared, I planned, I packed the biggest suitcase for this birth of this baby that I was really excited for and I thought I'd prepared mentally for every eventuality- what kind of birth, what would happen afterwards, but all very physical because they're the sorts of things that I could understand and imagine. And basically I ended up having an emergency C section, which in the moment I was fine with and I didn't think I was bothered by it, but the level of pain afterwards, that then again affected my level of control over looking after the baby. And the level of debilitation it created that I wasn't expecting- this is the key thing, I wasn't expecting it. That meant that I wasn't able to be me, really. I wasn't able to not least look after a baby, but get myself dressed, get myself showered, walk to the shop, drive a car, play netball, walk my dog. And I wasn't able to do any of that. I didn't appreciate that I was struggling with that, with accepting that. And because it went on for so long, and of course with this comes the baby blues that everyone talks about, but that's meant to only last apparently a couple of weeks. I, you know, you kind of just think, oh, well, I feel all this. I feel pain. I feel sad. I can't stop crying. But all that's meant to happen, all that's normal and it's sort of became the norm. So I was like, well, this is normal. This is how I'm going to feel forever. At this point I didn't have insomnia. I just could not stop crying. And I mean, like I couldn't, I didn't talk to anyone for two days at one point, because I knew if I opened my mouth to say anything, I would start crying. Like literally anything, I would just start crying. What the clincher for me was when I spoke to a doctor, I thought they were going to say get out and about, do some therapy, which at the time, I'm going to be honest, I thought, I can't sleep. I need a fix now. What I now know is I was doing a lot of behaviours that over time culminated in my body going, you're not listening to me, you're not well. Right I need to do something physical so that you wake up and do something about it. And that was the insomnia. So, I went to the doctor fully expecting them to say, do some mindfulness, do this, do that. And at that point I was just, you need to fix this now. I need to sleep. I need drugs. And yes, that's what they gave me, but they did say you need to do CBT- but what they did say what the first thing the doctor said was, you need antidepressants. Now, as a nurse working in GP surgery for them to jump all the self-help stuff and go take these tablets was like, Oh, right. I'm not okay. and it gave me that like allowance to say, I need to take tablets. But I already had said to myself, but I want to do not just mindfulness and helpfulness for myself. I want to do structured CBT because that way it is something I'm doing to give me back my control and I've got a plan. And because I already knew CBT was wonderful. Yeah, I didn't really understand what it was, how it worked, the structure of it. And I get that there's different types for different problems. but I knew that's what I wanted to do, once I had tablets to help me sleep and knew the antidepressants were going to work eventually, which did take a while. I was at least doing something myself that would help me forever. And I just thought, what have I got to lose? I need to do something. And until I started CBT, basically, I just felt like I was running around in circles in the dark. And the CBT gave me control and focus and, right, this is what we're doing going that way. Because until I started CBT, you know, I was Googling everything. Right, I'll try this. Right, I'll try that. And because it didn't work within 24 hours, I'd then try something else and try something else. Now it was making it worse, obviously. So, to have the CBT and have my therapist say, do this one thing for a whole week. I was like, all right, okay. That's quite a long time, but there's obviously a reason. Helen: Sarah, thank you for telling us all about that. What I'm hearing is that you had a combination of massive changes in your life, which will happen when you've had a baby, all sorts of things about the kind of person that you are, kind of added to all your really careful and sensible preparations for having this baby and then really being taken by surprise almost by all the other impact that it had on you and taking a while really to look for help and to look for a very specific kind of help then. And I'm just wondering in the context of all that, what it was like when you first went to see Sally for therapy? Sarah: Well, like I say, it was brilliant. It was like having someone turn the lights on and point me in the right direction and say, right, head that way and don't turn off and don't go any other direction. Just keep going that way. And it will eventually result in this. It's like if you go to the gym and you're running on the treadmill and you're thinking, well, is this going to achieve what I want it to achieve? And until it does start to, you've not got that positive reinforcement, to keep going. So quite often you stop, and that's what I was doing. I was trying one thing, trying the next, because I was so desperate for it to just go away, this insomnia. Which obviously at the time was one thing, but I understand now there was a whole other problem going on but the insomnia was what I needed fixing. I found CBT for insomnia, but Sally said, do you want to do a more generic anxiety control type approach and I said, yeah, because that's what if before this, you know, five, six years ago, little things would happen. And I think, Oh, I should do CBT for that. So it's clearly the same thing. So yeah. Why don't we just tackle it as a whole? And that was definitely the best thing to do. Helen: It sounds as if one of the things that was really helpful was looking at the bigger picture, as well as focusing on taking enough time to make changes. Okay. Can you tell us about the specific things that you did in therapy that you saw as particularly helpful. Sarah: Yeah. Like you say, what was helpful was being given a timeline really, and a direction. Like I say, when you go to the gym, you're not sure if it's going to work, I had to just trust Sally that what was she was explaining to me was going to work. And of course, at the time I couldn't see how it was going to work, but at least someone I trusted was telling me it will this, just do this? What was most helpful I could say was being told you've got to do the homework yourself. There's no point in being just told stuff. It was explained to me. And then what was helpful was then being told, go away and do this one thing for a whole week and then we'll review. So it really just broke down my thoughts, behaviours, my thought processes that I was going at such a hundred miles an hour that I wasn't giving, even giving myself time to think or realise I was having, and essentially that's what CBT is, you know, making you stop, think and unpick your thoughts and your behaviours and then trying to change them accordingly. So yeah, that the homework was helpful. And then obviously reviewing that homework, which with, before I even got to the review, a week later, I was able to physically feel and see why I was being asked to do what I was being asked to do. Helen: And I'm just thinking the analogy that you used there about being in the gym that you wouldn't necessarily expect to be super fit or running five miles the first time you got on the treadmill, but there was something that was tending to make you, you use the word desperate really to make a difference immediately. Because things needed to change. And during the therapy, was there anything that you found particularly challenging or something that either you and Sally talked about it, but you really didn't want to try it? Sarah: Well, as the weeks moved on, obviously the challenges that the homework got harder because it asked you to delve further in and make the changes of what you've, you know, you've realized just to give an idea, essentially the first week, I was asked to literally rate my happiness per hour as to what I was doing. Sounds simple. It is simple, but very quickly I realised, well, this doesn't make me as happy. So why am I doing it? And then of course you stop doing it because you know, it doesn't make you happy. And then over time, there's less time that you're unhappy. The second week, it was a bit more detail, rate how anxious certain things make you., So that was all fine. But once it got to the weeks where it was highlight the things that you've found out make you anxious, now do them or don't do them. Or, you know, if there's something you're doing to make yourself feel better, but actually you've realised it doesn't really work, it actually has a negative effect later on, don't do it. And if there's something that you're avoiding, but you know probably will make you feel better- do it. So that's obviously that's the scary bit because you've literally facing the spider, if that's what your problem is. but again, like every other stage during the CBT, I found it really easy. The main thing was I trusted Sally and also had nothing to lose.  One of the things, the behaviours that we realized I was doing was seeking reassurance from people on hypothetical worries. So you Google, you ask your experienced mums, why is my baby this colour or not sleeping or eating or the poo looks like this? They can't answer that. And you're wanting them to reply, Oh, it's this. And of course they can't. So, or I'd say to my husband, am I going to sleep tonight? He doesn't know that. And by doing that, I would reinforce the anxiety. But yeah, that was an example of something I stopped myself doing. And within days I realized, Oh, there was that thing that normally I would have asked about or Googled. I didn't. And actually nothing bad happened and I forgot all about it. Cause that was the worry was that it all comes back to sleep. If I didn't ask, would I then lie awake at night worrying I don't know what the answer is, but I didn't. So yeah, the hardest bit was actually stopping certain behaviours or starting certain behaviours. But actually I found it very easy once I had done because the positive reinforcement was there, you know, it worked. Helen: Thank you, Sarah. And, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to bring Sally into the conversation to talk about her reflections on what you've just been saying. Overall though, what are the things that you're still using now from what happened in therapy? What are the things that you learned and how are things now compared with when you first went to see Sally. Sarah: Well, things are great. I'm on antidepressants still. I'm going to see the doctor soon. Cause they want you to be on those for six months before you even think about coming off them. I feel myself now, so I feel confident to do that. Um, and because I'm healed, I'm back to being myself physically. I play netball, I walk the dog. I mean, I walked for four hours yesterday because of dog walking and pushing the pram around and played netball as well. So that helps, you know, being out and about physically, being in nature where I would normally be definitely helps my mood. The CBT a hundred percent has helped because there's been change again with the baby. So we've gone from breastfeeding to weaning, sleep changes, cause it's all about sleep, putting her in her own room, thinking when she's going to wake up, is she okay? Am I going to get back to sleep? Is there any point in me going to sleep? Cause she can be awake in this many hours. You know, that's a whole new challenge that I've had to deal with and there's been times that I've stopped and thought, Ooh. There's a thing I'm doing here and it's a behaviour that we recognised was what I was doing originally, which when I did it too much caused the problem. So, I've been able to really be more self-aware, basically, checking with myself and go, stop that. You don't need to do that. Everything will be fine. And guess what it is. Helen: Well, that's really good to hear. And what I'm also hearing is that it's not just that therapy helped, is that you're still using the techniques that you learn in the therapy. Sarah: I am. And also, I meant to say. This might not be the same for everybody, but it's quite important for myself because I'm not at work at the moment, you know, I'm a nurse. I've lost a sense of not purpose, but people come to me every day at work asking for help and support and advice. And I love to be able to do that and hear them say that's really helped, thank you. And since having the CBT, because it is something people are more happy to talk about nowadays, the amount of people I've spoken to that have said, Oh, I've done CBT or Oh, I'm thinking about, I've been told I should do CBT. Or none of that just I'm doing this behaviour and I'm not happy. I feel like I've been able to be a mini therapist to a few other people. I've been able to pass the torch a little bit because even though the problem they might be having is different to insomnia or anxiety, a lot of what Sally taught me was, I found, they were telling me things and I was thinking, well, I'll just say this thing that I do because it would work. And I've been able to relay what Sally said to so many people. And that's given me a lot of, joy because I've been able to help people. And they've said, Oh, right. Brilliant. You know, either they've gone to therapy because I've told them why they should because they didn't have anyone telling them that before, they've gone and then come back and gone, that was great. Or they've said to me, Oh, I didn't think anybody else was on Sertraline. 80 percent of the country are on Sertraline. It's fine. And that gives them support. Or like I say, the little technique Sally taught me, I've said, do this. And then they've come back and gone, do you know that really helped. So that's been nice for me too. Helen: Well, if there's somebody out there listening to this, who hasn't had that kind of conversation with you, or someone else who's recommended CBT or things that you can do to help in a situation like that. Is there anything that you would want to say about, CBT or looking after your mental health that anybody out there who hasn't encountered it before might need to know or want to hear. Sarah: It's free, most of the time. It's something that will help you for the rest of your life. Unlike, you know, a course of antibiotics. it's something that gives you control. It doesn't hurt, there's no injections. It's brilliant. Talk to people, I think is the key thing, not least your doctor, because obviously that's a private conversation. But again, as working in a GP surgery, I know that majority of health issues that come through the door, there's always an in for therapy. There's always a little bit of whatever they've come in with. Do you know what therapy could help that?  It should be the crux of everything. You know whenever a patient comes to see me, I can't think of many situations where I don't say, do you know what would help? Drinking more water. I feel like it's just as important as that in terms of you can't fix something up here if you don't get your foundation and your foundation is nourishment and happiness and the therapy made me happier because I had more control, and was less anxious and more relaxed and, you know, just chill. So I think just talk to people, not least your GP, if you don't want to talk to someone personally. Helen: From my point of view, that's a great message, Sarah. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And what I'm going to do now is I'm going to ask Sally, just to talk a little bit, I could see, I know our listeners can't see our faces, but I could see Sally smiling when you were saying some of the things that she told you to do. And I'd be really interested to hear Sally's reflections on her therapy with you and how you work together. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. It was brilliant working with Sarah and I think it's really nice to see where she's at now and also the fact that she's still using a lot of those tools that she learned and that she put into practice and, I think one of the things that was really good is that Sarah was ready. She was ready to engage. She wanted to do, you know, she wanted to do all of the things. She wanted to practice everything. She was ready there with the notebook, every session kind of, you know, making notes, taking it all in. And that's brilliant because that's what you need in CBT is really just to come with an open mind and just think about things in a different way. So that was really good. And I think as well, one of the things we discussed before we started the therapy was, time away from the baby. So this was Sarah's time, you know, this was an hour a week where, Sarah's husband or mum would look after the baby and this would be Sarah's hour where it's just about Sarah and it's just about this therapy and the CBT and so it was really important that she had that time and that space with no distractions. And so that I think that worked really well. We did some face to face and some remote via Teams sessions together. And I think one of the, one of the sort of challenges initially, as Sarah's mentioned before, Sarah's problem was that she couldn't sleep, that's what Sarah came with, it was a sleep problem. And it took us a little bit of time to sort of think about that together and unpick it together and go, actually, do we think it might be a symptom of a bigger picture, something else that's going on. And so we talked a bit over time and agreed as Sarah mentioned that actually it probably feels like more of a generalized anxiety and worry problem that was going on that was then impacting on the sleep. We spent quite a bit of time just exploring that and we did some fun experiments and things as the sessions went on, which is probably what I was smiling along to because I know it's not always easy for clients to, to sort of do those things and want to drop things like reassurance seeking. It's a safety net. And it's hard to drop that sometimes. Helen: Thanks, Sally. You've just said two things there that I would really like to explore a little bit more. You said fun experiments and reassurance seeking. So can you explain what you mean by those please? Sally: Of course. So, suppose I say fun because experiments are quite fun, aren't they sometimes. I know it's not easy to push yourself out of your comfort zone but I think we, me and Sarah had a bit of a laugh about some of the things that, you know, in the session, once we'd sort of sat down together and said, okay, so you're asking all of these other mums, for example, you know, what would they do in this situation, or like Sarah mentioned, what does it mean that my baby is this colour or that this is here and, you know, as we sort of broke it down together we could sort of see that, oh, actually, yeah, that they don't know. They're not going to be able to tell me this. My husband doesn't know if I'm going to be able to sleep tonight or not. So I'm asking this, but actually it's not getting me anywhere. So I suppose we almost got to a point where we could sort of see the funny side to those questions. And actually that helped, I think a little bit with then, right. How do we drop these things? How do we experiment with them? How do we move forward? And that really started to increase Sarah's confidence. And I could see that from session to session, you know, she wasn't asking other people, she was just allowing herself to rely on her own thoughts and her own experiences. And that worked really well for her. Helen: So there's something quite important about testing things out, finding out for yourself really having the experience of what it's like to do something differently and check whether that works in your particular situation. There was another phrase that Sarah used as well, which was positive reinforcement. I think we should just mention that's about essentially what reward you get or what is it that happens that makes you more likely to do something again. And that's what positive reinforcement means. It's just something that happens after we've done something that makes it more likely we'll do it again. And, to me, it sounds like one example of that was making it fun, testing these things out and actually getting something rewarding out of it was part of that journey. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a big part of it. Helen: And one of the things that made me smile when you were speaking, Sarah, was when you were talking about what Sally told you to do. And what things you ended up trying out for homework and those sorts of things, the way Sally's talked about it was deciding together, discussing it. I'd be really interested to hear a bit more about do you get told what to do in CBT or is it more you end up in a position where you've decided to do it? Sarah: No, you don't get told what to do. Of course. It's all very, like Sally says, you talk about it and then together decide what might be the best experiments is a good word. Cause everyone's different. Obviously, my exact path of how we got from A to B probably might not work for somebody else. Like Sally says, I came with a notebook, wrote everything down, did homework, because that works for me. No, she didn't tell me what to do. And what was funny as well was Sally's very good at just sitting back and letting you talk, which works because I talk a lot. So she sits back and she's very good at just sort of nudging you to realisations on your own, because if someone tells you that you think something or that you should do something, it doesn't really mean much. If you think it through yourself, because someone's supported you towards that thought process, you believe it more. It makes more sense. And you're like, ah, you know, the cogs go a bit slower, but then you get there. And so over the weeks I would be reflecting on what I'd been doing for Sally, myself, but with the homework. And she'd just go, and so do you think, and what do you reckon? And then I'd go off on another blah, blah, blah, and come back to a realisation that, and she'd have this sort of pleasing grin on her face, of yes that's where I was hoping you'd get to, but you need to get there yourself, obviously. And I was just like, really proud of myself, but also proud of, chuffed for her that it was going in the right direction, it was working. Helen: It's good to hear that you are proud and also it's good for me here listening to you both talk about this because we do talk in CBT about guided discovery and that's exactly what you've just described to us is that idea that it's you that's looking at what's happening And the therapist is perhaps asking you some well-placed questions, but it is about you and what you need and your process and drawing your conclusions from what you've discovered. It's good to hear you talking about that experience. And I'm just thinking about, at the beginning, we did mention that getting active, getting out into nature and things to do with moving more were an important part of the therapy and I'd really like to bring Leanne in as well to talk about how getting active, getting out into nature might be an important part of that therapy journey. Leanne: Oh, lovely, yeah it's something that Sally and I do a lot in our CBT because we recognize that the cognitive behavioural therapy has a really strong evidence base. There's a lot of research that says that it works and it's useful for lots of common mental health problems. But we also know that there's a really strong evidence base for exercise. Exercise is known to be one of the best antidepressants. And there's research as well that says that being in nature has a massive mood boosting effect. And if you pull all those three things together, then surely the outcome can only be brilliant if you've got lots and lots of really good evidence to say that, you know, any one of these variables on its own is going to help you, but let's combine the three. So, so we are huge advocates of including that in the work that we do as much as possible for lots and lots of different reasons, but you know, that sits underneath it all. It can be so good for mood. And also from our own experience I know I feel better when I've blown the cobwebs off, or we've got outside, or I felt the wind on my face, or I've been in nature. I've just moved a little bit. So from personal experience, both Sally and I can say it works. Helen: That's really good to hear, Leanne. And I'm just thinking, I can hear the enthusiasm in your voice and certainly we do know about that effect on wellbeing on getting out in the fresh air, moving more, and how important that is. And without taking away from how important that is, Sarah was talking about she just had major surgery. A caesarean section is actually quite a big operation. She's also got a tiny baby, so at least in the immediate short term, it would have been really difficult for her to move much or get out in the fresh air very much. And it might be the case not only for people who've recently had a baby, even without the surgery, it can have quite a big impact on your body but also perhaps for people with other challenges to getting out and about and moving and I'm just wondering, how can people still benefit from combining getting more active with things that might help say anxiety and depression when they do have challenges about getting out and about? Leanne: I think the first thing that comes to mind is to get medical guidance to kind of find out from somebody who knows your body as well as you do about what's appropriate and what's doable, before you start leaping into exercise or doing anything. And I think it's about trying to find ways just to move a little bit, whether that's, you know, stretching or things like chairobics or chair yoga, those kinds of things can be things that people do at home when they have limitations or pain or, you know, anything like that, but within the realms of, I suppose you've got to pace it within your capabilities and what's appropriate for you. But things like connecting with nature. I was looking into this prior to was talking today and things like birdwatching and looking out of the window or doing a little bit of gardening or tending to window boxes and those kinds of things can give you the same powerful effects of connecting with nature and a bit of activity too. It's not about, I suppose when we think about exercise and we think about movement, we often think about the Olympics and we think about marathon runners and we think about going to the gym and lifting really heavy weights over your head. And it doesn't have to be like that. It can be small things often and Sally and I were talking about this before about, the NHS recommendations and we worked out that it's about 20 minutes a day of movement that's helpful. And also, if you add 20 minutes a day in nature so you do 20 minutes moving around in nature every day, that's going to have a huge effect. So if you can find a way to, to do a little bit, a little walk, a little stretch, look out the window, even watch a nature documentary, that has a massive effect on your mood as well, because it's connecting with nature but in a different way, you don't have to leave the house for that. How does that answer your question Helen? Helen: It does thank you, Leanne. And I'm really pleased to hear you say that it doesn't have to involve buying expensive equipment or joining the gym. You don't have to live on the edges of a beautiful park or something like that. It's something that you can do whatever your living circumstances are. There's all sorts of creative ways that you can incorporate this as part of recovering, improving depression and anxiety and your mental health more generally. And I wonder whether, Sarah has any comments about that, Sarah, because you did mention how important that was to you even before you had your baby, and of course there would have been quite a big change to what was available to you immediately after you had her. Just wondered what your responses to what Leanne's just been saying about that. Sarah: Yeah, I mean, like I said at the very beginning, my expectations of getting back to being myself were not met. And so the big things were, I actually made a list for and showed Sally of things that I'd written down saying, and I entitled it Getting Back To Me. And it was in order of, I just want to be able to make tea for my husband, walk the dog with the baby. These are all things that I just thought I'm never going to be. I don't understand how I'm going to be able to do these. And every time I did them, I was like, oh look, I'm doing that. You know, playing netball and the big one was paddle boarding, and I did it the other week and I was like, oh yeah paddle boarding. Like Leanne says, when it was very important for me as someone who's very active and I'm outdoors with the dog in the countryside all the time to get back to that. And like Leanne says though, it doesn't have to be going for a run. You know, my level of, well, what do I want to achieve was forced to be lowered, if you like, that's the wrong word, changed and because what I hadn't realized on top of taking the dog for a walk was whilst I'm there, I'm listening to the water. I'm listening to the birds. I'm feeling, I'm smelling, I'm all these things. And I didn't realise all that had been took away from me. And so that was adding to how miserable I was. And, like Leanne says, it doesn't have to be right. I need to be able to go for a run. It can just be find yourself back in something that makes you feel happy. And I think one of the techniques I wanted to just mention as well, that Sally taught me, when Leanne mentioned about you doing 20 minutes a day of being in nature or exercising, so that you make sure that you really are doing that to its fullest and you're not, you know, birdwatching whilst washing the dishes or thinking about what you need to make for tea. She taught me a five, four, three, two, one mindfulness technique, which basically is whilst you're tending to your bird box or whatever you're doing, think of five things that you can see. Four things you can hear, three things you can smell, two things you can feel, a one thing you can taste or something like that. And not only does that focus your mind for that minute on those things. It's really nice to think, Oh, I didn't know I could hear that I'm tuning into it. And then you do it again, five minutes later or as much as you want or, and it stops the thought processes that are negative as well, because you're focusing on that, but it just makes sure that when you're in the nature bit you are really soaking it all in as much as possible. Helen: Thank you for that, Sarah. And I'm just thinking, we've had a really interesting conversation about your experience of therapy, Sarah, Sally's and Leanne's thoughts about what they're doing in therapy and what. seems to help people to benefit from it. I was wondering if I could ask each of you in turn, what's your most important message that you'd want people out there to know? So, Sally, what do you think is one key thing that you would want people out there to know? Sally: I would say that mental health difficulties are common and it's not something that you have to sort of put up with or that you're stuck with, I suppose, for the long term, often there are a lot of quite often very simple techniques that you can practice and try and learn either with or without therapy, that can just really help to manage those, either the feelings of low mood or those anxiety feelings as well so, it doesn't have to be a major change. There's a lot out there and a lot of cost-effective things as well that you can get involved with that can just really help to boost your mood. Helen: Thank you, Sally. Leanne. Leanne: Oh, it's such a good question. I think what I'd really like people to think about is thinking about mental health, the way we think about fitness and physical health and spending time each day doing something that nourishes and nurtures mental fitness, let's call it. In the same way that we might, you know, drink some water, like Sarah said, take our vitamins and have something to eat and try and have good sleep, but moving in the direction of thinking about our mental fitness being on the agenda all the time so that I suppose it normalises asking for help and talking about things and looking after yourself and, and good wellbeing all round. Because I think people often really struggle, don't talk about it and then come for therapy when they've been on their own with it for a very long time. Helen: Thank you very much, Leanne. And Sarah, what do you think you would want people out there to know, one key thing that you'd like to say? Sarah: Probably that if you think something's not quite right or something really isn't right and you just don't, you're not sure what, you don't have to know, you don't have to be able to go to a doctor and say I've got this problem, can you fix it please? Doctors are just as, they're well trained to know when someone needs referring for therapy. So yes, that's who you need to probably go to first in a professional manner but if you just go and say, okay, this is how I feel, blah, blah, blah. They'll pick up and know, actually, you would benefit from therapy because it sounds like this might be happening or going on and then you get referred to someone obviously who's even more specialised, a therapist, and they can sit back and listen to you just offload and say, these are the things that's happening, I'm not happy because of this, that and the other, and they'll go, right, It could be this, shall we try that? And so, yeah, you don't have to have all the answers, I think, is my key thing. but you need to ask for them, Helen: Fantastic. Thank you so much. All three of you have been excellent at telling us about your experience and knowledge, and I'd just like to express how grateful I am for all three of you talking with me today. Thank you. Thanks for listening to another episode and for being part of our Let's Talk About CBT community. There are useful links related to every podcast in the show notes. If you have any questions or suggestions of what you'd like to hear about in future Let's Talk About CBT podcasts, we'd love to hear from you. Please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at [email protected], that's [email protected]. You can also follow us on X and Instagram at BABCP Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast by clicking subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so that each new episode is automatically delivered to your library and do please share the podcast with your friends, colleagues, neighbours, and anyone else who might be interested. If you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, you might find our sister podcasts Let's talk about CBT- Practice Matters and Let's Talk about CBT- Research Matters well worth a listen.  

We're back! Let's Talk about CBT has been on hiatus for a little while but now it is back with a brand-new host Helen Macdonald, the Senior Clinical Advisor for the BABCP. Each episode Helen will be talking to experts in the different fields of CBT and also to those who have experienced CBT, what it was like for them and how it helped. This episode Helen is talking to one of the BABCP's Experts by Experience, Paul Edwards. Paul experienced PTSD after working for many years in the police. He talks to Helen about the first time he went for CBT and what you can expect when you first see a CBT therapist. The conversation covers various topics, including anxiety, depression, phobias, living with a long-term health condition, and the role of measures and outcomes in therapy. In this conversation, Helen MacDonald and Paul discuss the importance of seeking help for mental health struggles and the role of CBT in managing anxiety and other conditions. They also talk about the importance of finding an accredited and registered therapy and how you can find one. If you liked this episode and want to hear more, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us at @BABCPpodcasts on X or email us at [email protected]. Useful links: For more on CBT the BABCP website is www.babcp.com Accredited therapists can be found at www.cbtregisteruk.com Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF   Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the senior clinical advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. I'm really delighted today to be joined by Paul Edwards, who is going to talk to us about his experience of CBT. And Paul, I would like to start by asking you to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you. Paul: Helen, thank you. I guess the first thing it probably is important to tell the listeners is how we met and why I'm talking to you now. So, we originally met about four years ago when you were at the other side of a desk at a university doing an assessment on accreditation of a CBT course, and I was sitting there as somebody who uses his own lived experience, to talk to the students, about what it's like from this side of the fence or this side of the desk or this side of the couch, I suppose, And then from that I was asked if I'd like to apply for a role that was being advertised by the BABCP, as advising as a lived experience person. And I guess my background is, is a little bit that I actually was diagnosed with PTSD back in 2009 now, as a result of work that I undertook as a police officer and unfortunately, still suffered until 2016 when I had to retire and had to reach out. to another, another psychologist because I'd already had dealings with psychologists, but, they were no longer available to me. And I actually found what was called at the time, the IAPT service, which was the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies. And after about 18 months treatment, I said, can I give something back and can I volunteer? And my life just changed. So, we met. Yeah, four years ago, probably now. Helen: thank you so much, Paul. And we're really grateful to you for sharing those experiences. And you said about having PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and how it ultimately led to you having to retire. And then you found someone who could help. Would you like to just tell us a bit about what someone might not know about being on the receiving end of CBT? Paul: I feel that actual CBT is like a physiotherapy for the brain. And it's about if you go to the doctors and they diagnose you with a calf strain, they'll send you to the physio and they'll give you a series of exercises to do in between your sessions with your physio to hopefully make your calf better. And CBT is very much, for me, like that, in as much that you have your sessions with your therapist, but it's your hard work in between those sessions to utilize the tools and exercises that you've been given, to make you better. And then when you go back to your next session, you discuss that and you see, over time that you're honing those tools to actually sometimes realising that you're not using those tools at all, but you are, you're using them on a daily basis, but they become so ingrained in changing the way you think positively and also taking out the negativity about how you can improve. And, and yeah, it works sometimes, and it doesn't work sometimes and it's bloody hard work and it is shattering, but it works for me. Helen: Thank you, Paul. And I think it's really important when you say it's hard work, the way you described it there sounds like the therapist was like the coach telling you how to or working with you to. look at how you were thinking and what you were doing and agreeing things that you could change and practice that were going to lead to a better quality of life. At the same time though, you're thinking about things that are really difficult. Paul: Yeah. Helen: And when you say it was shattering and it was really difficult, was it worth it? Paul: Oh God. Yeah, absolutely. I remember way back in about 2018, it would be, that there was, there was a fantastic person who helped me when I was coming up for retirement. And we talked about what I was going to do when I, when I left the police and I was, you know, I said, you know, well, I don't know, but maybe I've always fancied being a TV extra and, That was it. And I saw her about 18 months later, and she said, God, Paul, you look so much better. You're not grey anymore. You know, what have you done about this? And it was like, she said I was a different person. Do I still struggle? Yes. Have I got a different outlook on life? Yes. Do I still have to take care of myself? Yes. But, I've got a great life now. I'm living the dream is my, is my phrase. It is such a better place to be where I am now. Helen: I'm really pleased to hear that, Paul. So, the hard work that you put into changing things for the better has really paid off and that doesn't mean that everything's perfect or that you're just doing positive thinking in the face of difficulty, you've got a different approach to handling those difficulties and you've got a better quality of life. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And don't get me wrong, I had some great psychologists before 2016, but I concentrated on other things and we dealt with other traumas and dealt with it in other ways and using other, other ways of working. I became subjected to probably re traumatising myself because of the horrendous things I'd seen and heard. So, it was about just changing my thought processes and, and my psychologist said, Well, you know, we don't want to re traumatise you, let's look at something different. Let's look at a different part and see if we can change that. And, and that was, very difficult, but it meant that I had to look into myself again and be honest with myself and start thinking about my honesty and what I was going to tell my psychologist because I wanted to protect that psychologist because I didn't want them to hear and talk about the things that I'd had to witness because I didn't think it was fair, but I then understood that I needed to and that my psychologist would be taken care of. Which was, which was lovely. So, I became able to be honest with myself, which therefore I can be honest with my therapist. Helen: Thank you, Paul. And what I'm hearing there is that one of your instincts, if you like, in that situation was to protect the therapist from hearing difficult stuff. And actually the therapist themselves have their own opportunity to talk about what's difficult for them. So, the person who's coming for therapy can speak freely, although I'm saying that it's quite difficult to do. And certainly Post Traumatic Stress Disorder isn't the only thing that people go for CBT about, there are a number of different anxiety difficulties, depression, and also a wider range of things, including how to live well with a long term health condition and your experience could perhaps really help in terms of somebody going for their first session, not knowing what to expect. As a CBT therapist, I have never had somebody lie down on a couch. So, tell us a little bit about what you think people should know if they are thinking of going for CBT or if they think that somebody they care about might benefit from CBT. What's it like going for that first appointment? Paul: Bloody difficult. It's very difficult because by the very nature of the illnesses that we have that we want to go and speak to a psychologist, often we're either losing confidence or we're, we're anxious about going. So I have a phrase now and it's called smiley eyes and it, and it was developed because the very first time that I walked up to the, the place that I had my CBT in 2016, the receptionist opened the door and had these most amazing engaging smiley eyes and it, it drew me in. And I thought, wow. And then when I walked through the door and saw the psychologist again, it was like having a chat. It was, I feel that for me, I know now, I know now. And I've spoken to a number of psychologists who say it's not just having a chat. It is to me. And that is the gift of a very good psychologist, that they are giving you all these wonderful things. But it's got to be a collaboration. It's got to be like having a chat. We don't want to be lectured, often. I didn't want to have homework because I hated homework at school. So, it was a matter of going in and, and talking with my psychologist about how it worked for me as an individual, and that was the one thing that with the three psychologists that I saw, they all treated me as an individual, which I think is very, very important, because what works for one person doesn't work for another. Helen: So it's really important that you trust the person and you make a connection. A good therapist will make you feel at ease, make you feel as safe as you can to talk about difficult stuff. And it's important that you do get on with each other because you're working closely together. You use the word collaboration and it's definitely got to be about working together. Although you said earlier, you're not sure about the word expert, you're the expert on what's happening to you, even though the therapist will have some expertise in what might help, the kind of things to do and so there was something very important about that initial warmth and greeting from the service as well as the therapist. Paul: Oh, absolutely. And you know, as I said earlier, I'm honoured to speak at some universities to students who are learning how to be therapists. And the one thing I always say to them is think about if somebody tells you their innermost thoughts, they might never have told anybody and they might have only just realised it and accepted it themselves. So think about if you were sitting, thinking about, should I put in this thesis to my lecturer? I'm not sure about it. And how nervous you feel. Think about that person on the other side of the, you know, your therapy room or your zoom call or your telephone call, thinking about that. What they're going to be feeling. So to get through the door, we've probably been through where we've got to admit it to ourselves. We then got to admit it to somebody else. Sometimes we've then got to book the appointment. We then got to get in the car to get the appointment or turn on the computer. And then we've got to actually physically get there and walk through. And then when we're asked the question, we're going to tell you. We've been through a lot of steps every single time that we go for therapy. It's not just the first time, it's every time because things develop. So, you know, it's, it's fantastic to have the ability to want to tell someone that. So when I say it's fantastic to have the ability, I mean, in the therapist, having the ability to, to make it that you want to tell them that because you trust them. Helen: So that first appointment, it might take quite a bit of determination to turn up in spite of probably feeling nervous and not completely knowing what to expect, but a good therapist will really make the effort to connect with you and then gently try to find out what the main things are that you have come for help with and give you space to work out how you want to say what you want to say so that you both got , a shared understanding of what's going on.So your therapist really does know, or has a good sense of what might help. So, when you think about that very first session and what your expectations were and what you know now about having CBT, what would you say are the main things that are different? Paul: Oh, well, I don't actually remember my first session because I was so poorly. I found out afterwards there was three of us in the room because the psychologist had a student in there, but I was, I, I didn't know, but I still remember those smiley eyes and I remember the smiley eyes of the receptionist. And I remember the smiley eyes of my therapist. And I knew I was in the right place. I felt that this person cared for me and was interested and, you know, please don't think that the, the psychologist before I didn't feel that, you know, they were fantastic, but I was in a different place. I didn't accept it myself. I had different boundaries. I wanted to stay in the police. I, you know, I thought, well, if I, you know, if I admit this, I'm not going to have my, my job and I can't do my job. So a hundred percent of me was giving to my job. And unfortunately, that meant that the rest of my life couldn't cope, but my job and my professionalism never waned because I made sure of that, but it meant that I hadn't got the room in my head and the space in my head for family and friends. And it was at the point that I realized that. It wasn't going to be helpful for the rest of my life that I had to say, you know what, I'm going to have to, something's going to have to give now. And unfortunately, that was, you know, my career, but up until that point, I'm proud to say that I worked at the highest level and I gave a hundred percent. Now I realised that I have to have a life work balance rather than a work life balance, because I put life first. And I say that to everybody have a life work balance. It doesn't mean you can't have a good work ethic. It doesn't mean you can't work hard. It's just what's important in that. So what's the difference between the first session then and the first session now? Well, I didn't remember the first session. Now, I know that that psychologist was there to help me and there to test me and to look at my weaknesses. Look at my issues, but also look at my strengths and make me realize I'd got some because I didn't realise I had. Helen: That's really important, Paul, and thank you for sharing what that was like. I really appreciate that you've been so open and up front with me about those experiences. Paul: So let's turn this round to you then Helen as a therapist And you talked about lots of conditions, and things that people could have help with seeing a CBT therapist because obviously I have PTSD and I have the associated anxiety and depression and I still deal with that. What are the other things that people can have help with that they, some that they do have heard, have heard of, but other things that they might not know can be helped by CBT? Helen: Well, that's a really good question. And I would say that CBT is particularly good at helping people with anxiety and depression. So different kinds of anxiety, many people will have heard, for example, of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, OCD, or Generalized Anxiety Disorder where people worry a lot, and it's very ordinary to worry, but when it gets out of hand, other things like phobias, for example, where the anxiety is much more than you'd expect for the amount of danger people sometimes worry too much about getting ill or being ill, so they might have an illness anxiety. Those are very common anxiety difficulties that people have. CBT, I mean, you've already mentioned this, but CBT is also very good for depression. Whether that's a relatively short term episode of really low mood, or whether it's more severe and ongoing, then perhaps the less well known things that CBT is good for. For example, helping people live well if they have a psychotic disorder, maybe hearing voices, for example, or having beliefs that are quite extreme and unusual, and want to have help with that. It's also very good for living with a long term health condition where there isn't anything medical that can cure the condition, but for example, living well with something like diabetes or long term pain. Paul: interestingly, you spoke about phobias then, Is the work that a good therapist doing just in the, the consulting room or just over, the, this telephone or, or do you do other things? I'm thinking of somebody I knew who had a phobia of, particular escalators and heights, and they were told to go out and do that. You know, try and go on an escalator and, they managed to get up to the top floor of Selfridges in Birmingham because that's where the shoes were and that helped. But would you just, you know, would you just talk about these things, or do you go out and about or do you encourage people to, to do these with you and without? Helen: Again, that's, that's a really good point, Paul, and the psychotherapy answer is it depends. So let's think about some examples. So sometimes you will be mostly in the therapist's office or, and as you've mentioned, sometimes on the phone or it can be on a video call. but sometimes it's really, really useful to go out and do something together. And when you said about somebody who's afraid of being on an escalator, sometimes it really helps to find a way of doing that step by step and doing it together. So, whether that's together with someone else that you trust or with the therapist, you might start off by finding what's the easiest escalator that we've got locally that we can use and let's do that together. And let me walk up the stairs and wait for you and you do it on your own, but I'll be there waiting. Then you do it on your own and come back down and meet me. Then go and do it with a friend and then do it on your own. So, there's a process of doing this step by step. So you are facing the fear, you are challenging how difficult it is to do this when you're anxious. But you find a place where you can take the anxiety with you successfully, so we don't drop you in the deep end. We don't suddenly say, right, you're going all the way to the fifth floor now. We start one step at a time, but we do know that you want to get to the shoes or whatever your own personal goal and motivation is there's got to be a good reason to do it gives you something to aim towards, but also when you've done it, there's a real sense of achievement. And if I'm honest as a therapist, it's delightful for me as well as for the person I'm working with when we do achieve that. Sometimes it isn't necessarily that we're facing a phobia, but it might be that we're testing out something. Maybe, I believe that it's really harmful for me to leave something untidy or only check something once. We might do an experiment and test out what it's like to change what we're doing at the moment and see what happens. And again, it's about agreeing it together. It's not my job to tell somebody what to go and do. It's my job to work with somebody to make sure that they've got the tools they need to take their anxiety with them. And sometimes that anxiety will get less, it'll get more manageable. Sometimes it goes away altogether, but that's not something I would promise. What I would do is work my very hardest to make the anxiety so that the person can manage it successfully and live their life to the full, even if they do still have some. Paul: And, and for me, I think one of the things that I remember is that my, you know, my mental health manifested itself in physical symptoms as well. So it was like when I was thinking about things, I was feeling sick, I was feeling tearful. and that's, that's to be expected at times, isn't it? And, and even when you're facing your fears or you're talking through what you're experiencing. It's, it's, it's a normal thing. And, and even when I had pure CBT, it can be exhausting. And I said to my therapist, please. Tell people that, you know, your therapy doesn't end in the session. And it's okay to say to people, well, go and have a little walk around, make sure you can get somebody to pick you up or make sure you can get home or make sure you've got a bit of a safe space for half an hour afterwards and you haven't got to, you know, maybe pick the kids up or whatever, because that that's important time for you as well. Helen: That's a really important message. Yes, I agree with you there, Paul, is making sure that you're okay, give yourself a bit of space and processing time and trying to make it so that you don't have to dash straight off to pick up the kids or go back to work immediately, trying to arrange it so that you've got a little bit of breathing space to just make sure you're okay, maybe make a note of important things that you want to think about later, but not immediately dashing off to do something that requires all your concentration. And I agree with you, it is tiring. You said at the beginning it's just having a chat and now you've talked about all the things that you actually do in a session. It's a tiring chat and tiring to talk about how it feels, tiring to think about different ways of doing things, tiring to challenge some of the assumptions that we make about things. Yes it is having a chat, but really can be quite tiring. Paul: And I think that the one thing that you said in there as well, you know, you talk about what would you recommend. Take a pen and paper. Because often you cannot remember. everything you put it in there. So, make notes if you need to. Your therapist will be making notes, so why can't you? And also, you know, I think about some of the tasks I was given in between my sessions, rather than calling it my homework, my tasks I was given in between sessions to, I suffered particularly with, staying awake at night thinking about conversations I was going to have with the person I was going to see the next day and it manifested itself I would actually make up the conversations with every single possible answer that I could have- and guess what- 99 times out of 100 I never even saw the person let alone had the conversation. So it was about even if I'm thinking in the middle of the night, you know, what I'm going to do, just write it down, get rid of it, you know, and I guess that's, you know, coming back again, Helen to put in the, the ball in your court and saying, well, what, what techniques are there for people? Helen: Well, one of the things that you're saying there about keeping a note and writing things down can be very useful, partly to make sure that we don't forget things, but also so that it isn't going round and round in your head. The, and because it's very individual, there may be a combination of things like step by step facing something that makes you anxious, step by step changing what you're doing to improve your mood. So perhaps testing out what it's like to do something that you perhaps think you're not going to enjoy, but to see whether it actually gives you some sense of satisfaction or gives you some positive feedback, testing out whether a different way of doing something works better. So there's a combination of understanding what's going on, testing out different ways of doing things, making plans to balance what things you're doing. Sometimes there may be things about resting better. So you said about getting a better night's sleep and a lot of people will feel that they could manage everything a bit better if they slept better. So that can be important. Testing out different ways of approaching things, asking is that reasonable to say that to myself? Sometimes people are thinking quite harsh things about themselves or thinking that they can't change things. But with that approach of, well, let's see, if we test something out different and see if that works. So there's a combination of different things that the therapist might do but it should always be very much the, you're a team, you're working together, your therapist is right there alongside you. Even when you've agreed you're going to do something between sessions, it's that the therapist has agreed this with you. You've thought about what might happen if you do this and how you're going to handle it. And as you've said, sometimes it's a surprise that it goes much better than we thought it was going to. So, so we're testing our predictions and sometimes it's a surprise. It's almost like being a scientist. You're doing experiments, you're testing things out, you're seeing what happens if you do this. And the therapist will have some ideas about the kind of things that will work. but you're the one doing, doing the actual doing of it. Paul: And little things like, you know, I, I remember, I was taught a lovely technique and it's called the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, technique about when you're anxious. And it's about, I guess it's about grounding yourself in the here and now and not, trying to worry about what you're anxious about so you try and get back into what is there now. Can you just explain that? I mean, I know I know I'm really fortunate. I practice it so much. I probably call it the 2-1 So could you just explain how what that is in a more eloquent way than myself? Helen: I think you explained that really well, Paul, but what we're talking about is doing things that help you manage anxiety when it's starting to get in the way and bringing yourself back to in the here and now. And for example, it might be, can I describe things that I can see around me? Can I see five things that are green? Can I feel my feet on the floor? Tell whether it's windy and all of those things will help to make me aware of being in the here and now and that the anxiety is a feeling, but I don't have to be carried away by it. Paul: And there's another lovely one that, I, you know, when people are worrying about things and, it's basically about putting something in a box and only giving yourself a certain time during the day to worry about those things when you open the box and often when you've got that time to yourself. So give yourself a specific time where you, you know, are not worrying about the kids or in going to sport or doing whatever. So you've got yourself half an hour and that's your worry time in essence. And, you know, I use it on my phone and it's like, well, what am I worrying about? I'll put that in my worry box and then I'll only allow myself to look at that between seven and half past tonight. And by the time I've got there, I'll be done. I'm not worrying about the five things. I might be worrying slightly about one of them, but that's more manageable. And then I can deal with that. So what's the thought behind? I guess I've explained it, but what, what's the psychological thought behind that? And, and who would have devised that? I mean, who are these people who have devised CBT in the past? Because we haven't even explored that yet. Helen: Well, so firstly, the, the worry box idea, Paul, is it's a really clever psychological technique is that we can tell ourselves that we're going to worry about this properly later. Right now, we're busy doing something else, but we've made an appointment with ourselves where we can worry properly about it. And like you've said, if we reassure ourselves that actually, we are, we're going to deal with what's going on through our mind. It reassures our mind and allows it not to run away with us. And then when we do come to it, we can check, well, how much of a problem is this really? And if it's not really much of a problem, it's easier to let it go. And if it really is a problem, we've made space to actually think about, well, what can I do about it then? so that technique and so many of the other techniques that are part of Cognitive and Behavioural psychotherapies have been developed in two directions, I suppose. In one direction, it's about working with real people and seeing what happens to them, and checking what works, and then looking at lots of other people and seeing whether those sorts of things work. So, we would call that practice based evidence. So, it's from doing the actual work of working with people. From the other direction, then, there is more laboratory kind of science about understanding as much as we can about how people behave and why we do what we do, and then if that is the case, then this particular technique ought to work. Let's ask people if they're willing to test it out and see whether it works, and if it works, we can include that in our toolkit. Either way, CBT is developed from trying to work out what it is that works and doing that. So, so that's why we think that evidence is important, why it's important to be scientific about it as far as we can, even though it's also really, really important that we're working with human beings here. We're working with people and never losing sight of. That connection and collaboration and working together. So although we don't often use the word art and science, it is very much that combination Paul: And I guess that's where the measures and outcomes, you know, come into the science part and the evidence base. So, so for me, it's about just a question of if I wanted to read up on the history of CBT, which actually I have done a little. Who are the people who have probably started it and made the most influence in the last 50 years, because BABCP is 50 years old now, so I guess we're going back before that to the start of CBT maybe, but who's been influential in that last 50 years as well? Helen: Well, there are so many really incredible researchers and therapists, it's very hard to name just a few. One of the most influential though would be Professor Aaron T. Beck, who was one of the first people to really look into the way that people think has a big impact on how they feel. And so challenging, testing out whether those thoughts make sense and experimenting with doing things differently, very much influenced by his work and, and he's very, very well known in our field, from, The Behavioural side, there've been some laboratory experiments with animals a hundred years ago. And I must admit nowadays, I'm not sure that we would regard it as very ethical. Understanding from people-there was somebody called BF Skinner, who very much helped us to understand that we do things because we get a reward from them and we stop doing things because we don't or because they feel, they make us feel worse. But that's a long time ago now. And more recently in the field, we have many researchers all over the world, a combination of people in the States, in the UK, but also in the wider global network. There's some incredible work being done in Japan, in India, you name it. There's some incredible work going on in CBT and it all adds to how can we help people better with their mental health? Paul: and I think that for me as the patient and, and being part of the BABCP family, as I like to, to think I'm part of now, I've been very honoured to meet some very learned people who are members of the BABCP. And it, it astounds me that, you know, when I talk to them, although it shouldn't, they're just the most amazing people and I'm very lucky that I've got a couple of signed books as well from people that I take around, when I do my TV extra work. And one of them is a fascinating book by Helen Macdonald, believe it or not on long term conditions that, that I thoroughly recommend people, read, and another one and another area that I don't think we've touched on that. I was honoured to speak with is, a guy called, Professor Glenn Waller, who writes about eating disorders. So eating disorders. It's one of those things that people maybe don't think about when they think of CBT, but certainly Glenn Waller has been very informative in that. And how, how do you feel about the work in that area? And, and how important that may be. I know we'll probably go on in a bit about how people can access, CBT and, you know, and NHS and private, but I think for me is the certain things that maybe we need to bring into the CBT family in NHS services and eating disorders for me would be one is, you know, what are your thoughts about those areas and other areas that you'd like to see brought into more primary care? Helen: Again, thank you for bringing that up, Paul. And very much so eating disorders are important. and CBT has a really good evidence base there and eating disorders is a really good example of where somebody working in CBT in combination with a team of other professionals, can be particularly helpful. So perhaps working with occupational therapists, social workers, doctors, for example. And you mentioned our book about persistent pain, which is another example of working together with a team. So we wrote that book together with a doctor and with a physiotherapist. Paul: Yeah, yeah. Helen: And so sometimes depending on what the difficulties are, working together as a team of professionals is the best way forward. There are other areas which I haven't mentioned for example people with personality issues which again can be seen as quite severe but there is help available and at the moment there is more training available for people to be able to become therapists to help with those issues. And whether it's in primary care in the NHS or in secondary care or in hospital services, there are CBT therapists more available than they used to be and this is developing all the time. And I did notice just then, Paul, that you said about, whether you access CBT on the NHS and, and you received CBT through the NHS, but there are other ways of accessing CBT. Paul: That was going to be my very next question is how do we as patients feel, happy that the therapist we are seeing is professionally trained, has got a, a good background and for want of a phrase that I'm going to pinch off, do what it says on the tin. But do what it says on the tin because I, I am aware that CBT therapists aren't protected by title. So unfortunately, there are people who, could advertise as CBT therapist when they haven't had specific training or they don't have continual development. So, The NHS, if you're accessing through the NHS, through NHS Talking Therapies or anything, they will be accredited. So, you know, you can do that online, you can do it via your GP. More so for the protection of the public and the making sure that the public are happy. What have the BABCP done to ensure that the psychotherapists that they have within them do what they say it does on the tin. Helen: yes, that's a number of very important points you're making there, Paul. And first point, do check that your therapist is qualified. You mentioned accredited. So a CBT psychotherapist will, or should be, Accredited which means that they can be on the CBT Register UK and Ireland. That's a register which is recognised by the Professional Standards Authority, which is the nearest you can get to being on a register like doctors and nurses. But at the moment, anyone can actually call themselves a psychotherapist. So it's important to check our register at BABCP. We have CBT therapists, but we have other people who use Cognitive and Behavioural therapies. Some of those people are called Wellbeing Practitioners that are probably most well known in England. We also have people who are called Evidence Based Parent Trainers who work with the parents of children and on that register, everybody has met the qualifications, the professional development, they're having supervision, and they have to show that they work in a professional and ethical way and that covers the whole of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. So do check that your therapist is on that Register and feel free to ask your therapist any other questions about specialist areas. For example, if they have qualifications to work particularly with children, particularly with eating disorders, or particularly from, with people from different backgrounds. Do feel free to ask and a good therapist will always be happy to answer those questions and provide you with any evidence that you need to feel comfortable you're working with the right person. Paul: that's the key, isn't it? Because if it's your hard-earned money, you want to make sure that you've got the right person. And for me, I would say if they're not prepared to answer the question, look on that register and find somebody who will, because there's many fantastic therapists out there. Helen: And what we'll do is make sure that all of those links, any information about us that we've spoken in this episode will be linked to on our show page. Paul, we're just about out of time. So, what would you say are the absolute key messages that you want our listeners to take away from this episode? What the most important messages, Paul: If you're struggling, don't wait. If you're struggling, please don't wait. Don't wait until you think that you're at the end of your tether for want of a better phrase, you know, nip it in the bud if you can at the start, but even if you are further down the line, please just reach out. And like you say, Helen, there's, there's various ways you can reach out. You can reach out via the NHS. You can reach out privately. I think we could probably talk for another hour or two about a CBT from my perspective and, and how much it's, it has meant to me. But also what I will say is I wish I'd have known now what, or should I say I wish I knew then what I knew now about being able to, to, to open myself up, more than, you know, telling someone and protecting them as well, because there was stuff that I had to re-enter therapy in 2021. And it took me till then to tell my therapist something because I was like disgusted with myself for having seen and heard it so much. But actually, it was really important in my continual development, but yeah, don't wait, just, just, you know, reach out and understand that you will have to work hard yourself, but it is worth it at the end. If you want to run a marathon. You're not going to run a marathon by just doing the training sessions when you see your PT once a week. And you are going to get cramp, and you are going to get muscle sores, and you are going to get hard work in between. But when you complete that marathon, or even a half marathon, or even 5k, or even 100 meters, it's really worth it. Helen: Paul, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really grateful for you speaking with me and it's wonderful to hear all your experiences and for you to share that, to encourage people to seek help if they need it and what might work. Thank you. Paul: Pleasure. Thanks Helen.

The British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, the lead organisation for cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) in the UK and Ireland, is 50 years old this year. In this episode Dr Lucy Maddox explores how CBT has changed over the last 50 years. Lucy speaks to founding members Isaac Marks, Howard Lomas and Ivy Blackburn, previous President David Clark, outgoing President Andrew Beck and incoming President Saiqa Naz about changes through the years and possible future directions for CBT. Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP   Transcript  Dr Lucy Maddox:        Hello, my name is Dr Lucy Maddox and this is Let's Talk about CBT, the podcast brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies or BABCP. This episode is a bit unusual, it's the 50th anniversary of the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies this year. And I thought this would be a nice opportunity to explore some of the history of cognitive behavioural therapy, especially the last 50 years.                                     Some of the roots of CBT can actually be traced way back. Epictetus, an ancient Greek Stoic philosopher wrote that man is disturbed not by things, but by the views he takes of them. This is pretty close to one of the main ideas of cognitive behavioural therapy, that it's the meaning that we give to events, rather than the events themselves which is important. But actually, cognitive behavioural therapy started off without the C. To find out more, I made a few phone calls. Isaac Marks:               Hello, Isaac Marks here. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Isaac Marks was one of the founding members of BABCP and a key figure in the development of behavioural therapy in Britain. I asked him if he could remember what CBT was like 50 years ago. Isaac Marks:               Originally it was just BT and a few years later the cognitive was added. At the time, the main psychotherapy was dynamic psychotherapy, sort of Freudian and Jungian. But just a handful of us in Groote Schuur Hospital psychiatric department, that's in Cape Town, developed an interest in brief psychotherapy. And I was advised if I was really interested in it and I was thinking of taking it up as a sub profession, that I should come to the Maudsley in London. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Isaac and his wife moved to London from South Africa and Isaac studied psychiatry at the Maudsley Hospital in Camberwell. What was it about CBT that had interested you so much? Isaac Marks:               Because it was a brief psychotherapy, much briefer than the analytic psychodynamic psychotherapy. We were short of therapists and there wasn't that much money to pay for extended therapy, just a few sessions. Six or eight sessions something like that could achieve all what one needed to. They had quite a lot of article studies. Dr Lucy Maddox:        And I guess that's still true today, that those are some of the real standout features of it, aren't they? That it is a briefer intervention than some other longer-term therapies and that it's got a really high quality evidence base. Isaac Marks:               I think that's probably true, yes. Howard Lomas:          There was a group that met at the Middlesex Hospital every month. And that was set up by the likes of Vic Meyer, Isaac Marks, Derek Jayhugh. Dr Lucy Maddox:        That's Howard Lomas, another founding member of BABCP remembering how the organisation got set up 50 years ago from lots of different interest groups coming together. Howard Lomas:          These various groups that got together and said, "Why don't we have a national organisation?" So that was formed back in 1972. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Howard's professional background was different to Isaac's psychiatry training, but he found behaviour therapy just as useful. Howard Lomas:          I'd originally trained well in social work, but I was a childcare officer with Lancashire County Council. Dr Lucy Maddox:        And how were you using CBT or behaviour therapy in your practice? Howard Lomas:          Well, as a general approach to everything, thinking of everything in terms of learning theory. How do we learn to do what we do and maintain it with children? Things like non-attendance at school and other problems, behavioural problems with children and then later problems with adults. But I suppose when I moved to Bury in 1973, I was very much involved in resettlement of people with learning disability from the huge hospitals that we had up here in the north. We'd three hospitals within sight of each other, each with more than 2,000 patients. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Wow. Howard Lomas:          They're all closed now long since, but yeah, the start of that whole closure programme of trying to get people out into the community. You learn normal behaviour by being in a normal environment, which people in institutions clearly aren't and weren't. So it's trying to create that ordinary valued environment for people. And simply doing that would teach them ordinary behaviours, valued behaviours. It was evidence-based, it was also very effective.                                     It looked at behaviour for what it was rather than what might be inferred. I suppose I saw psychology as more of a science (laughs). I'm still in touch with some of the people that are resettled from way back. People who had been completely written off as there's no way they could ever live in their own home are now thriving, absolutely. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Now, Howard's and Isaac's memories of CBT 50 years ago highlight that an important route of CBT is behavioural learning theory. This includes ideas of classical conditioning, where in a famous experiment which you've probably heard of, Pavlov, taught his dogs to salivate in response to the bell that he rang for their dinner rather than the dinner itself. And operant conditioning, where animals and humans learn to do more or less of a behaviour based on the consequences which happen in response to that behaviour. Howard Lomas:          Half a dozen of us sitting with Skinner, chatting for three hours. So that was quite influential (laughs). Dr Lucy Maddox:        Skinner was another of the early behaviourists, and Howard has memories of being lectured by Skinner at Keele University. The formation of BABCP was important for therapists at the time because behavioural therapy back then was quite a niche field. Howard Lomas:          It was publicly very unpopular indeed. Behaviour therapy was known very much as behaviour modification, which has got an involuntary feel about it, even the name that it was being thrust upon people. And even at that time, aversion therapy was being used for trying to change homosexuality in people, aversion therapy then. Which is quite topical now with the whole debate on conversion therapy. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Absolutely. We've signed up to the memorandum of understanding against conversion therapy. Howard Lomas:          The aversive is horrible. And there was a big scandal at I think it was Napsbury Hospital about their clinical programme, which was allegedly based on behaviour modification, more aversive techniques. So there was a big scandal and that led to a major government inquiry, and they asked for anyone to offer, submit evidence on the whole question of behaviour modification, which BABP did. And that then formed the basis of our guidelines for good practice. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Just a note, if you're listening to this as a cognitive behavioural therapist, please do read the memorandum of understanding against conversion therapy online at www.babcp.com.  It makes it clear why we're opposed to conversion therapy in any form. I'll put the link in the show notes, too. Like Isaac, Howard remembered that shift from behaviour therapy to cognitive behavioural therapy. Howard Lomas:          Well, I was always against adding the C. I was always taught that behaviour has three components to it: motor behaviour, cognitive behaviour, and affective behaviour. So behaviour included cognitive, so why did you have to have it as a separate thing? Although in those early days I used to get told off if I spoke about thoughts and feelings. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Did you? Howard Lomas:          Yeah, because you can't see them. You can't measure them. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yeah, interesting, although there's still a lot of measurement, isn't there? But maybe it's like you say what we think we can measure has maybe changed. Howard Lomas:          That's right, yeah. Yeah, I think the measurement and the evidence is so important. Ivy Blackburn:             We actually changed the name when we started it was called the British Association for Behaviour Psychotherapy. So at one of the conferences we passed a motion and added the C. Dr Lucy Maddox:        That's Ivy Blackburn, another founding member of BABCP. Ivy Blackburn:             At that point well, I was a qualified clinical psychologist. I'd just finished my PhD, I trained in Edinburgh. And I was working in a research set up, an MRC unit called the Brain Metabolism Unit. Dr Lucy Maddox:        And so, CBT at that time was quite a new thing? Ivy Blackburn:             Very, very new. I actually had just discovered Beck as it was, while I was going the research for my PhD, which was in depression. And I used to correspond with him and he used to send me his early papers and things like that. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Ivy's talking there about Aaron Beck, also sometimes known as Tim Beck. Also sometimes called the father of CBT. Ivy Blackburn:             With Aaron Beck I always signed I M Blackburn. And the story he used to tell at conferences was he always thought I M Blackburn was an old Scottish man. (Laughs) So once he came to Edinburgh, he was on a sabbatical, and we were sitting at I think it was a case conference. He was sitting next to my boss, who was somebody called Dr Ashcroft, and I was sitting next to him.                                     He turned to Ashcroft and said, "Could you show where I M Blackburn is?" Dr Ashcroft said, "You're sitting next to her." Yeah. So that's how it all started, you know, we were a small group in those days, very small group. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Do you remember what you were excited about by CBT at that time? Ivy Blackburn:             I thought the research that Beck was doing about the factors in depression, about the role of thoughts I thought that was very interesting. The unit where I was working one of their things was working with treatment resistant depression. And they used to go through, the research was a series of drugs. You start with Drug A. If Drug A doesn't work, you go to B, to C to D. By the time they'd got to E and had nothing else to do I said, "I'll take them." And that's how I started. I just thought it was very meaningful to me. They loved it, people talked to them and they could talk about what mattered to them, and they actually got better. Not long after that we decided to do the famous first ever trial in cognitive therapy for depression. That was published in 1981. Oxford started at the same time, they also had started, John Tisdale and his group, a treatment trial. So ours came out in 1981 and theirs came out in 1984, I think. So we were actually the two centres, Edinburgh and Oxford. But cognitive therapy has developed so much. There's all sorts of offshoots, I don't know very much about. But another big person who did his PhD with me, big one at the moment who's still active I think is Paul Gilbert. He was one of my PhD students. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Was he? Wow, yes. Because of course he founded compassionate mind therapy, yeah. Ivy Blackburn:             That's it. Dr Lucy Maddox:        If you want to hear more about compassion focused therapy, you can check out the earlier podcast with Paul Gilbert. And in fact, if you're interested in any of the different flavours of CBT which are now around, series one is a really good place to start. We go through lots of different types of CBT there and we hear from therapists and also people who've had those different types of CBT. Am I right in thinking as well you were a chair of BABCP? Ivy Blackburn:             That I was a what? Dr Lucy Maddox:        A chair? Like a president of the organisation, is that right? Ivy Blackburn:             Yes, I was. I was president, yes. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yes, and were you the first woman president? Ivy Blackburn:             Yes. And I am of mixed race, so that was a bit of first as well. I went to Newcastle from Edinburgh in 1993. I think it was 1993. Dr Lucy Maddox:        And what was your experience like of being president? Ivy Blackburn:             As I say, we were so small in those days, you know, we had these little cosy conferences. We met in Newcastle every month. I was very, very well supported by Paul Salkovskis so he sort of guided me through. It was easy and of course some of those people are still there. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yeah, you're the big names. Ivy Blackburn:             (Laughs) We are, we are the oldies. Have I enjoyed it? Yes. Yes, I have enjoyed this work very, very much, yeah. Dr Lucy Maddox:        What have you enjoyed about it? Ivy Blackburn:             My work was very diversified because I was obviously also an academic so I did research, I did teaching, I organised a course. But I always carried on with my clinical work and I think that's what I enjoyed the most, clinical work. This is what's rewarding, isn't it? Dr Lucy Maddox:        For sure. Yeah, absolutely. David Clark:                It was an exciting time. And people talked about it as a cognitive revolution. And I think it was a revolution. Dr Lucy Maddox:        That's David Clark. He's based at the Oxford Centre for Cognitive therapy, which Ivy was talking about. We also met David in the very first episode of this podcast. He joined the BABCP in the late 70s, when the dominant approach was still behaviour therapy. But as we heard from Ivy Blackburn, there was a crosspollination of ideas from the United States, where Aaron Beck was working on cognitive therapy for depression. The idea that the way we perceive the world and our future can affect how we feel about it is now rather taken for granted. But at the time it was quite a radical idea. David Clark:                We suddenly started looking at a whole range of different potential therapy manoeuvres. There are thousands of ways you can change people's beliefs and it was really exciting. Dr Lucy Maddox:        The interlock between beliefs, behaviours, memory and attention was really the basis of cognitive behavioural therapy as we now know it, with the model of thoughts, feelings, behaviours and bodily sensations, which is a fundamental part of most explanations of CBT today. Another root which CBT grew out of was rational emotive behaviour therapy, which Albert Ellis pioneered in the 50s and which also included thoughts, behaviours and emotions in its way of thinking about problems. In the late 80s and 90s, CBT as we now know it, grew out of all of these roots, behaviourism, rational emotive behaviour therapy, and influenced by the work of Aaron Beck and the bringing together of all of these different ideas. Through the 80s and 90s, lots of disorder specific psychological models were created, to try to tackle specific problems. For example, models for panic disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder, and other problems were developed and really changed the treatment for those difficulties. David Clark:                And then, of course people start spotting ah, yeah, but some of the maintenance processes that had been invoked in a disorder specific model are also applying in other disorders. safety behaviour which Paul Salkovskis of course really pioneered is a good example of that. And also changes in attention, ways in which memory processes can go wrong. And so, you start moving into this way of thinking which is a bit more transdiagnostic. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yeah, lovely, so actually it's kind of gone from a very transdiagnostic one treatment fits all at the very start to then getting much more specific and nuanced. To then zooming out again to a bit more of a broader picture again. David Clark:                Yeah. And I think this is the sort of healthy dialectic that you experience when a field is moving forward. Dr Lucy Maddox:        And I suppose that's one thing that I feel like CBT I mean, other therapies too perhaps, but CBT in particular it feels like it really is a learning therapy, where it's very good at creating an evidence base. And then holding that evidence base up to the light and saying, "Hang on, what could we be doing better here?" And it does feel like it's continually evolving perhaps because of how well evidenced it is. David Clark:                I think that's right. I think it's always had a very close link to the evidence base. But I think other therapies are going in a similar way, and I think this is really all to the good. Dr Lucy Maddox:        What do you think of the? Because the sort of family of CBTs if you like, I think of them as a family, there different therapies that have developed I guess a little bit more recently which still draw on cognitive and behavioural principles. But maybe sort of run with a different strand of it each time. So I suppose I'm thinking about APT and DBT and compassion focused therapies. How do you see those fitting? David Clark:                I'm just an empiricist, so I think what I think of them depends on what the outcome data is (laughs) with the particular conditions that they're involved with. But when you get an approach which seems to be doing well and maybe improving on something else, then one always has to look at it. One of my friends, close friends through much of my career was Tim Beck who sadly died last year.                                     But he was a very jokey person in many ways. But one of the points that he would sometimes make when someone said to him, "Well, what's cognitive therapy?" He would say, "Well, anything that works." And of course, it was a joke in a sense, but it was also serious because he was always watching for what other people did in other therapy approaches to see if they'd got something which cracks open beliefs in a way that he hadn't seen before.                                     And if so, it miraculously got incorporated into cognitive therapy. It's really important that we as therapists always keep our eyes open to these things. One of the big developments more recently in the field has been to think well, how can we bring these advances to the public so that really large numbers of people benefit? Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yeah, and of course improving access to psychological therapies has been a massive part of that. David Clark:                Yes. It's been a great honour to work with so many wonderful people who put in such hard effort to lobby for that. And then, to create the services and crucially, to make them work so effectively that successive governments across the whole political spectrum have cherished and expanded the programme. At the moment it is the only aspect of our mental health services where outcomes are recorded on everyone and are published. In my worst nightmares I would not have dreamt that we'd still have almost every other area of mental health provision in the dark ages in terms of public transparency. And also in terms of learning. Dr Lucy Maddox:        As David said there, a national improving access to psychological therapies programme in England doesn't only include CBT. But it has been instrumental in increasing access to CBT as well as other evidence-based therapies within England. It's also been responsible for creating a whole generation of low intensity therapists, who deliver CBT as part of a stepped care model. Where briefer interventions, often in the form of guided self-help, are offered for less severe presenting problems. Now we move a little later in the history of CBT. I got in touch with the outgoing president of BABCP, Andrew Beck, and asked him how he first came across CBT. He told me about his first experience of the BABCP conference as a trainee clinical psychologist back in 1997. Andrew Beck:             I managed to get a free ticket to it by DJing at the social party afterwards. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Did you? Andrew Beck:             Yeah, I did, I DJed at that and got a load of Rod Holland's photographs from past conferences and made a sort of slideshow of them, which we showed, while I was DJing and it was great. But I really felt like I'd come home because there was such a wide variety of people there. It was people from all different professional backgrounds, all coming together and talking about the real practical aspects of working in mental health.                                     Yeah, it was a real eye opener for me. Being around people who you feel share the same concerns, the same interests, who want things to be better in the same kind of way that you do is great. You feel like you're part of a community then, don't you? And being part of that community sustains you in what you're doing in a really nice way. Dr Lucy Maddox:        What was it about CBT that you liked? Andrew Beck:             It was pragmatic, and I think there was something about it that was very much about being in the room with someone and helping them to get past the things that were stopping them getting on in life. And it was that really present focused aspect of it that appealed to me. That I felt like as a cognitive behaviour therapist, you were going to help someone find something to take home with them and do differently to improve things. And I think that was what really clicked for me, to be honest, Lucy.                                     I came in 25 years ago, at a point where CBT had begun to be thought about as a therapy in a very coherent way. A lot of the models that we use now and are familiar with, were all really well established. And it was easy to imagine that it had always been like that. But of course, talking to some of the people who were around in those formative years, it's been really interesting to hear that history of how the therapy has developed.                                     And I'm told that there was a raging argument about whether these ideas about behaviour therapy and those ideas about cognitions could be brought together in one therapeutic organisation. And how that might look. Because they were quite distinct camps at times, really, with quite different ideas about what therapy ought to be like. And whether these very disparate ideas could sit well together in one organisation and what that organisation ought to be called. But of course, by 25 years ago attending conference, what we now think about as second wave CBT felt very formed, actually. And what's happened in the 25 years since is the third wave therapies have developed their evidence base, developed their theoretical foundations and have really grown in popularity. And there's a whole group now of therapies that are considered to be part of the family of cognitive behaviour therapies but are the kind of next wave. Dr Lucy Maddox:        So Andrew talks there about first wave CBT, which was really just behavioural therapy. Second wave CBT, where the thoughts got added. And third wave CBT, which is the larger family of therapies we now think of. As I said before, if you want more information on the different sorts of CBT, check out the podcast in series one. As we heard from Howard earlier, not everything about the past history of CBT is rosy by any means. Is there anything that you're glad that we've left behind in terms of how CBT has changed in the last 50 years? Andrew Beck:             Yeah, I am, actually. There's a few things I think are real problems in the history of our therapy. And probably the one that stands out the most is the role of behaviour therapy predominantly in conversion therapy for people that are LGBT identities. And if you look back at conference proceedings from BABCP conferences 30, 40 years ago this was something that was seen as unproblematic. That there was an idea that people who were unhappy with their sexual identity could have their sexual identity changed through behaviour therapy. And looking back now that was appalling and actually for many people at the time it would have been seen as appalling, too. So it's not just one of those things that with the benefit of hindsight doesn't look great, actually it didn't look great at the time, I think for a lot of people. And if you were a gay member of our organisation and came to conference and saw that as part of the conference proceedings, that would have been a really alienating process, really. And I think the other thing is because CBT has often been aligned with diagnostic frameworks over the course of CBT's history, really see now and understood now as being quite unhelpful. And the one that most stands out for me, I think is borderline personality disorder, which is a way of describing people who generally experienced extraordinarily abusive and invalidating environments growing up, who have developed all sorts of strategies to manage those difficult environments. But who have been understood by services as having a problematic or disordered personality. And I think broadly speaking, the world of mental health is moving away from that as a diagnostic category. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Andrew is the outgoing president of BABCP, and he's just about to hand over to Saiqa Naz, which is the last person I spoke to. Her perspective on CBT comes from her training as first a low intensity therapist, then a high intensity therapist and now as a trainee clinical psychologist. Saiqa Naz:                  I really enjoyed my training, there was a core group of us. We had a routine, we'd go to Costa and have a coffee beforehand. So for me, I remember that (laughs), the social aspect of it. I think that really makes a difference to a training experience, just having that network of support around you. We're actually celebrating our 10 years of friendship this year. So I've been in CBT for 10 years now this year, so it's nice to be part of BABCP and hopefully be part of its future as well.                                     And I'm mindful I'm probably a bit different to the other presidents in terms I might be a bit younger, or not a professor. But hopefully bring something different to the organisation. Yeah, I think when I trained as a low intensity CBT it was in the early days of the IAPT programme. So just really interesting to see something so huge being rolled out nationally. And how it was being developed locally, so I trained in Sheffield and we were based in GP surgeries.                                     And I really liked that model, working a little bit more closely with other healthcare professionals, GPs. I've still held onto the skills that I learnt as a low intensity CBT practitioner, when I trained as a CBT therapist. So it lent itself really well to training as a CBT therapist. And again, I think both are valuable in their own right. The step care model is really important if you're thinking about long waiting lists and people having access to treatment sooner rather than later. So I think in that sense, the low intensity CBT role has really revolutionised mental health and how services are delivered today. Dr Lucy Maddox:        David and Andrew both had similar respect for the low intensity role and how it's changed access to CBT. David Clark:                We now have people with a wide range of backgrounds, non-medical backgrounds, who are delivering evidence-based therapies and are considered on an equal basis and are considered to be real experts. So that sort of democratisation of mental health provision has been obviously an incredibly good thing. Andrew Beck:             We're really lucky in BABCP in that we've got a bunch of great low intensity members who are involved on board level, at committees. And I think that's going to be a big part of who we are as an organisation. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Saiqa and Andrew were also two of the authors of the IAPT positive practice guide for working with Black, Asian and minority ethnic service users, which is available at www.babcp.com and also in the show notes. Saiqa had some ideas about what would help this to be rolled out more fully. Saiqa Naz:                  I think there's quite a few things that will help. So people like Andrew and myself can take a step back and that's having representation in those senior leadership roles, decision making roles. What we see is that IAPT has opened the doors for people from underrepresented groups, so working class backgrounds, BAME backgrounds, men, people with disabilities.                                     But what we need to see is those people in more senior leadership roles. And personally I would like to see ringfenced funding now, to help the implementation of the guide. Otherwise, I think the system will keep relying on goodwill and it could be a bit exhausting. Dr Lucy Maddox:        What about the future of CBT? We don't know how it will change in the next 50 years. But everyone I interviewed had some ideas. Saiqa Naz:                  I think for me looking forward I want us to learn more about our CBT heritage. We were just talking about it at the beginning, thinking about who are we inheriting the knowledge from? Where has it come from? Because it will help us to connect with CBT and also think about what's the legacy of CBT long after we're gone what we're leaving behind for the next generation.                                     And also, how are we going to support the development in a way we are privileged here with the amount of resources that we do get in mental health and the level of training. But how can we pass it on to more lower middle income countries? Taking CBT to communities I think is really important because sometimes I think an organisation can become too insular and just be focused on the inward and on itself. But having that one foot in, one foot out is really helpful. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Andrew agreed that involving people with lived experience of having had CBT is really important when we think about the future development of the therapy and how it might evolve over the next 50 years. Andrew Beck:             It enables us to think a little bit more about barriers to engaging in therapy, what we need to do differently to bring people in, what we need to do once people are in therapy. And it's been a really lovely development, I think in CBT to think more about that. We really don't know, we're very much at the edges of thinking about how our therapies might develop over the next 25 and 50 years. So it's a really exciting time. We need to keep pushing and refining our ideas to improve. But the other one for me is about access and outcomes for diverse populations. CBT needs adaptation and therapists need to be able to take into account cultural contexts in order to do that because the large datasets that we've got show that for many communities their outcomes are not as good. Now, part of that I think is because those communities experience particular social and economic hardship and marginalisation, and therapy can't fix that. But part of it is because therapists just need to get better at thinking about difference in the way we work. So I think that's going to be an exciting project over the coming years. And we're just at the start of that, really. Ivy Blackburn:             I think it will be still there with a lot of development, side developments, as we see at the moment, like compassionate and all sorts. Different branches. But I don't see it disappearing to be replaced, developing as it should be. The beginning was very, very quick developing from depression it quickly went to anxiety. And then, Paul and David went into panic disorder, all this. One after the other, different methods. David Clark:                I just hope that the speed of progress in the next 50 years is at least as fast as we've had in the last 50. And we get to a situation where helping people learn how to deal with setbacks in their life and deal with mental health problems becomes much more routine in society. I assume we're going to have much more digital. I'm sure AI is going to help with a number of things. But I'm also sure that the absolutely basic qualities that are in therapy about having someone who really cares what's going on with you, being warm and empathic and really wanting to understand the world from your perspective will remain dominant and really important. Isaac Marks:               Well, I imagine that new methods will continue to be developed from time to time by people in different countries. And as far as I can see, it's the sort of approach that I think is likely to continue for the foreseeable future. Dr Lucy Maddox:        I hope that's given you a bit of a flavour of how CBT has grown and developed, especially in the last 50 years from its behavioural roots to the diverse and flourishing therapy that it is today. Do check out the other episodes of the podcast to hear from people who have actually had the therapy to hear in their own words what it's been like for different problems and with different types of CBT. Meanwhile from me, that's goodbye. Take good care and enjoy your summer wherever you are. END OF AUDIO Shownotes Photo by Ryan Gagnon from Unsplash Music by Gabriel Stebbing Produced for BABCP by Lucy Maddox For more on BABCP check out www.babcp.com The Memorandum of Understanding Against Conversion Therapy can be found online here: https://babcp.com/Therapists/BAME-Positive-Practice-Guide The IAPT Positive Practice Guide for BAME Service Users can be found here: https://babcp.com/Therapists/Memorandum-Against-Conversion-Therapy For more on different types of CBT check out series 1.  

In this bonus episode of Let's Talk About CBT, hear Dr Lucy Maddox interview Dr Tom Ward and Angie about SlowMo: digitally supported face-to-face CBT for paranoia combined with a mobile app for use in daily life. Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP   Transcript Dr Lucy Maddox:        Hello and welcome to Let's Talk about CBT, the podcast from the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, BABCP. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not, and how it can be useful. In this episode, I'll be finding out about an exciting new blended therapy, SlowMo, for people who are experiencing paranoia. This digitally supported therapy has been developed over 10 years with a team of people including designers from the Royal College of Art in London, a team of people who have experienced paranoia. And a team of clinical researchers, including Professor Philippa Garety, Dr Amy Hardy and Dr Tom Ward. The design of this intervention really prioritised the experience of people using the therapy in what's called a design led approach. To understand more I video called Tom Ward, research clinical psychologist based in Kings College London, and I had a phone call with Angie, who's experienced using the therapy. Here's Angie's story. Angie:                          I mean, I've had psychosis for many years. About 20 years ago I was really poorly, I was in and out of hospital. Going back about 20 years ago they kept giving me different diagnoses and I expect everybody else had the same thing. Anyway, then I met a psychiatrist and I was with him for over 20 years until he retired. And he really helped me a lot, I was actually diagnosed with schizophrenia. Part of me was really scared and another part of me was sort of relieved that I knew that I was dealing with. I get voices, sometimes I see or feel things that aren't really there. But part of my diagnosis is I also get very depressed. And when I get very depressed, that's when the voices are at their worst because I haven't got the strength to sort of fight them off, if you like. If I'm having a good day, then I can use the skills I've learnt in the past to not listen to the voices and to have a reasonably good day. If I'm having a bad day and it's a duvet day, then that's when I really suffer with the voices. Unless you can actually accept that you have this issue, and you actually accept that you need the help, it doesn't matter what they do to help you, you're just not going to take it on board. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Angie wanted some help, specifically with paranoid thoughts she was experiencing about people looking at her or laughing at her. She found out about the SlowMo trial and applied to be a part of it. And ended up being one of the very first people to try the therapy. Tom led on the delivery of therapy in the trial. Dr Tom Ward:              I've worked and have worked for the last couple of years trying to develop and test digital interventions for people experiencing psychosis. So I've been involved in developing interventions that help people who are experiencing distressing voices. And been involved in work in a therapy called avatar therapy and more recently I've been working with colleagues to develop an intervention designed to help people who are experiencing fear of harm from others, which we would sometimes refer to as paranoia. Dr Lucy Maddox:        In case listeners wonder what avatar therapy is could you just briefly say what that is? Dr Tom Ward:              So in avatar therapy, digital technology is used with the person to create a representation of the distressing voice that they hear. So we work with the person to create an avatar which has an image which matches the image the person has of their distressing voice. And which comes to sound like the voice that they hear. And we use this avatar direct in dialogue. Very much with the rationale that many people who are experiencing distressing voices have relationships with their voice where they feel disempowered and lacking power and control. And we try to use the work with avatars and the dialogue with avatars to provide an opportunity for the person to reclaim power and control. And so we're very much working directly with the experience in quite a potentially powerful way for people. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Could you tell me about the current project you're working on, so SlowMo? Dr Tom Ward:              Yeah, so the first thing to say is that SlowMo stands for slow down for a moment. And so, it's a therapy which is a targeted therapy for people who are experiencing paranoia. And it's based in the idea that's been popularised by Daniel Kahneman and other people that human thinking can be sort of thought about in terms of two different types of thinking. There's fast thinking where we approach situations and we go with our first impression. We go with our intuition and gut feeling and we don't take time to think it through. And slow thinking is more around taking a step back from situations and weighing things up and considering different ways of looking at situations. So one of the things to say is that fast thinking is part of human nature, we all do it and in many different times in our lives. But what we know from research into the experiences of people with psychosis is that people who worry about harm from other people, people who have significant paranoia can often be very likely to engage in this fast thinking. And find it difficult to feel safe in situations and to slow down and consider what else might be going on in the situation. So the therapy is designed to help people build an awareness of this fast thinking which is a part of human nature but can be particularly difficult if we're feeling unsafe. And it's designed to support people to be able to slow down and feel safer in their lives. And managing situations so they can really engage and enjoy their lives in a way that perhaps in the past has been difficult. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Fast thinking I guess that's something like you were saying that we all can get into a bit. Dr Tom Ward:              The first message that we try to get across within the therapy is that fast thinking is part of human nature, it's natural. And there are times when thinking fast is actually very helpful for people, sometimes we need to react to situations, and we need to recognise where we are unsafe and there's danger. But in the context of when people are feeling unsafe throughout so much of their life, and in situations where perhaps the danger isn't quite as much as the fear suggests it is, fast thinking can leave people feeling unsafe in situations where it might start to be a barrier to people living their lives. And slow thinking is something that we're all capable of, but all human beings find it difficult and people experiencing psychosis and worrying can find this difficult as well. But we're really trying to find ways to support people to do that, to feel safe in their lives. Dr Lucy Maddox:        And how does the therapy work? What does it look like? Dr Tom Ward:              We would describe it as a blended digital therapy. And it's important to explain what that means. The blending aspect of this is that we try to take the best of face-to-face therapy and the building of a relationship with someone. But we try to improve the therapy through using, through blending digital technology into what we do.                                     So the therapy involves eight face-to-face sessions, but each of these sessions is supported by an easy to use website effectively, an interactive website. So within a session, you'd be talking to the person or the person would be talking with the therapist but also interacting with a touchscreen laptop. And this provides information, it provides interactive ways that the person can build a picture of their own worries about other people or situations.                                     And really visualise what's happening in a way that in psychological therapy we talk about a formulation. A formulation, an understanding of somebody's difficulties. But the digital technology in SlowMo is trying to really bring the person into that process of understanding what's going on and making it very engaging and interactive and visual and memorable for the person.                                     In order to try to support the person to make changes in their daily life, there's also a mobile app that comes alongside the therapy, which is very much aimed at taking what the person has learnt in the therapy and applying it into their daily life. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Here's Angie on what she remembers this digitally supported therapy being like. Angie:                          You could choose pretty much where you wanted to do the therapy, you could have it at home, or you could have it in a café or somewhere else where you felt comfortable. So I did it in a café, a local café, with a lady called Alison. And what it consists of the clinician, Alison, she had a laptop. My heart sank originally because I thought oh no, I'm no good on computers. And I explained to her that I wasn't very good on a computer. And she was so lovely, so patient, she said, "I can do most of it for you." So that was fine. What the therapy was it did what it says on the tin, really. It taught you to slow your mind down, and to break things up into little pieces, like for instance I used to be terrified of getting on the bus because I thought people were talking about me and laughing at me. Dr Lucy Maddox:        That's a horrible feeling. Angie:                          Yeah, yeah. And this sort of therapy taught me to break it up. To say myself, "Well, hang on a minute, these people aren't looking at you. They're talking to their friends, they're on their phone." Just take it easy. And it's a very simple idea but it works because although you know in your heart of hearts that that is the way to do it, when you're actually in the situation, you forget. You just panic and to learn these skills was really good. Dr Lucy Maddox:        I asked Tom to describe what the digital component of the treatment looks like. Dr Tom Ward:              The website allows a person to build a picture of their worries. And these are using thought bubbles effectively, but really engaging well presented thought bubbles. And the idea of these is that they're personalised and tailored for the person. So within a session, the person will be describing their worries but also creating these worry bubbles on the website. And the idea of fast thinking and slow thinking is represented by the way in which these bubbles spin.                                     So when we're talking about building an awareness of fast thinking, the person is actually able to control how fast their worry bubbles are spinning. And when we're talking about maybe ways of slowing down the person can see visually how the worry is slowing down. So they build a picture of their worries and also importantly are building a kind of access to safer or more positive thoughts.                                     And these are visualised as again bubbles the person creates, which can be made into different colours, depending on the person's preference and can be linked into the worries and can be used on the mobile app outside of sessions. As somebody who's worked in more traditional face-to-face CBT therapy, having these in the session and the person in control and interacting is a really significant thing to have in the session, really enhances the experience. Dr Lucy Maddox:        I like the idea of the different colours and the different movement. Can you make the bubbles bigger and smaller as well? Dr Tom Ward:              Absolutely. As you would have in a more traditional CBT session, at the beginning of a session, the person's asked about how their week has gone, how much of the worry has been on your mind, how distressing has it been. And ratings are done on the touchscreen app, so the person is able to rate and see the change in the bubble. So if it's been a week where it's been a little bit less distressing, the person changes the slider and there's that visual change as well that the person can see.                                     And also, through the course of the therapy, we talk about different ways to slow down. And people develop their own strategies for slowing down in the situations that they're struggling with. And the idea of the mobile app is that these strategies that the person might be able to think of in the session. They can be very difficult to think about when you're actually in a situation where you're worried if you're on a bus or on a tube.                                     So the idea is that these tips, these colourful tips can be brought into the mobile app. And the person can be just one or two touches away from something which they've created themselves and they know can help them in that situation. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Angie used the app when she was out and about. Angie:                          They gave you a phone with an app on it. You put in all your fears, like getting on the bus or being in a crowd, and then you put in what they called your support bubbles. They came up on screen in little bubbles and it had what you used to cope with these voices and delusions. And you could look on your phone, and it would come up. Like for instance if I was in a crowd and I wanted to get away, you'd go onto your phone. And it would say things like just remember no one's looking. Just slow down. And you could use this phone on the bus because nobody knew you weren't just using a normal smartphone. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yeah, absolutely. That sounds really, really useful to have it on you all the time. Angie:                          It was very useful, very useful. And yeah, nobody looks at anybody now, everybody's got a phone, so nobody thinks that you're doing anything different. Dr Lucy Maddox:        It's so true, it's more unusual not to have a phone actually now, isn't it? Angie:                          (Laughs) It is. Yeah. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Tom thought those blended approach meant that there was more chance that people could carry on learning from therapy into their day-to-day life. Dr Tom Ward:              Having worked with people for many years, my experience is that really important things can be discussed during a therapy session and really meaningful understanding can emerge. And yet, that can actually be difficult to remember or to use when you need it, when the person needs it, which is in the flow of their life. So that's really what the digital technology is allowing us to try to do here in SlowMo. Dr Lucy Maddox:        And were the sessions weekly and how long were they for? Dr Tom Ward:              It involved eight sessions conducted weekly. On average they'd range between 60 and 75 minutes across the trial. Given that it's not simply talking one to one, face-to-face talking for 50, 60 minutes. Given that there's interaction with the website, where people are listening to the experiences of other people with similar experiences it struck me that actually people were able to engage for slightly longer than we might expect within a more traditional approach. And also, the other thing that we were very keen to do is where the person was willing, we wanted to take the therapy out into situations where the person was most worried. So this meant taking the phone out with the person to try their slowing down strategies in situations they were fearing. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yeah, that's really interesting what you said about people being able to tolerate slightly longer makes me think about sometimes how having difficult conversations can be easier if you're not having to look at each other all the time. So like if you're driving or something, sometimes you can have a more in depth conversation. And I was just wondering if you thought that tolerance of slightly longer was to do with the conversation being triangulated through something else as well or whether it was for another reason? Dr Tom Ward:              I absolutely agree with that. I think prior to having delivered the therapy I had some worries or reflections about what would it be like to not have a one-to-one discussion where you're going back and forth in that way? Because that's what I'd known, and I wondered whether it might be clunky in some way to have the structure of the website and the material and how that would work in the process of a session.                                     I wondered how that was going to go. And how it went is exactly how you've described it. That the fact that the attention was triangulated, and the person could click and listen to people who had experiences that they may connect with or they might not connect with. And that could be used as a springboard back into a discussion around how the person's situation was similar or different. That really did seem to facilitate a really therapeutic process, which to me had some significant benefits over the classic mode of delivery of cognitive interventions. It naturally lent itself towards collaboration because the person was actually controlling the touchscreen and clicking on things. And true collaboration in that way was facilitated. One of the sessions towards the end talks about how our past experiences of relationships can affect how we worry about things in the here and now. And that can bring up some of the experiences of the people that we've worked with involve experiences of trauma and bullying and discrimination are very painful experiences, which can be really painful and difficult to discuss in sessions. And the fact that they were able to hear the experiences of other people and choose the extent to which they wanted to discuss their own experiences. It felt to me that the power was very much with the person in the session and the triangulation really helped in that respect. Dr Lucy Maddox:        And eight sessions is kind of not that long actually, I was thinking. What happens in those sessions? Is there quite a similar content that they tend to follow? Or is it a bit flexible? Dr Tom Ward:              So partly the answer to that question is that it's targeted and structured. And the evidence from the trial was that therapy was delivered very much as planned. And there are issues within psychological interventions, particularly in the context of psychosis where there's so much complexity to the situation that it can be hard to retain the clear focus across longer periods of work.                                     Very much what we were able to do here is provide an engaging way for somebody to really understand and make changes in one very specific area which proved helpful. Having said that, what we've also found and we might talk about the findings in a bit more detail. We've found that the improvements that we saw in the trial were not limited to the people's experience of paranoia.                                     But we actually saw more general improvements in wellbeing, quality of life and the person's self concept and positive sense of themselves. And that showed that as well as targeting fast and slow thinking, we were able to work with this flexibility to be able to bring in other aspects that might have been relevant for the person. And we know within the context of psychosis how the person sees themselves and self esteem can be so critical. So we were able to target other areas as well within our main focus also. Angie:                          I've suffered with psychosis for many years and I found this probably one of the most helpful tools that I've been offered. Dr Lucy Maddox:        What do you think made the difference? What do you think made it more helpful? Angie:                          Probably I was in the right frame of mind. I think it's important that you accept that you do need some help. So I think that made a difference. Also, it was such a simple idea that you could grasp. And they'd show you little pictures of things. For instance there was a picture of a man with a wallet in his hand, and he was running. And you had to say what you thought was happening, just to show how your thoughts can be different. I said that it looked like he might have pinched it and was running away. And she said, "Yes, that's one option." Or she said that he could have found it and was chasing after the person that had lost it. So it was just a way of learning how to think, to rethink it. Dr Lucy Maddox:        So like opening up just the possibility of there being other explanations for something? Angie:                          Exactly. Yes, exactly. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Sometimes people can experience worried or paranoid thoughts about the internet. And I was curious to know how that fed into the design of the app. Here's Tom. Dr Tom Ward:              It was something that we were considering at the beginning of the trial as something that was potentially something that people might worry about. And one of the ways in which the phone was set up is such that it was possible to use it without connecting it to the internet. So it was possible to have the phone just as a sort of a standalone resource that wouldn't be connected to the internet and wouldn't be synchronised with the session. Given that people might potentially have concerns about information that they were adding to a phone being transferred across.                                     But in effect in the trial, actually people didn't commonly express those concerns and liked the fact that what they were doing with the phone was actually linked into the session, and it was automatically bringing that into the session. So the concerns around the technology and the surveillance were actually not as significant across the trial as perhaps one might think at the beginning. It was quite interesting to see how naturally people were engaging with the technology in the session. Dr Lucy Maddox:        That's really interesting and I bet it took so much thinking through at the start to think through all of these potential problems. Dr Tom Ward:              Absolutely, and part of the blending of therapy so that you have face-to-face therapy which is augmented by digital therapies you have an opportunity to develop a therapeutic relationship. To develop trust, which is so crucial when we're working with anybody but particularly people who've experienced worries about other people and paranoia. So in a sense that relationship is facilitating the person engaging with technology, because there is an element of trust, hopefully in the person that they're seeing. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Sounds like it was a nice experience for you as a therapist as well. Dr Tom Ward:              Absolutely. It's a nice experience to feel that it's a really clear and collaborative thing that we're doing with the person. And it's thought and designed in a way to make it engaging and easy to use and enjoyable. Yeah, that was a real pleasure to be delivering a therapy that people were engaging with in that way. I sometimes feel you sometimes hear people talk about discussions about whether people are, the idea of socialising people to a psychological model.                                     Or you even hear sometimes people say, "Perhaps somebody is not psychologically minded." And you still hear that. And it always really surprises me because it implies somehow that we have the great therapies already and the issue is really the person is not really getting it or able to get it.                                     Whereas the reality is that we need to develop and provide psychological interventions that meet the needs of a diverse range of people. And actually, in a room face-to-face talking for 50 minutes can be really helpful for lots of people, but it's not for everybody. And so, I felt really privileged that in collaboration with others like Dr Amy Hardy who really led on this, that we were able to deliver something that really seemed to meet the needs of a really diverse range of people. And so that felt really good to do that. Dr Lucy Maddox:        I was just thinking the only time it would be less accessible I guess is if someone doesn't have so much access to the internet or to digital technologies. Is that a kind of barrier that's come up at all or have you mostly found that people tend to have access? Dr Tom Ward:              This is a really important question because it's about the extent to which some of the people that we work with may be excluded digitally. As you say, maybe don't have access to wifi, don't have access to smartphones. Within the trial, we are looking to develop an intervention that works for everybody, regardless of their prior experience or confidence with technology.                                     We had quite a few people in the trial that would come having not had any access to smartphones, using digital technology or laptops. And one of the interesting things that we're looking at is just that actually this is an intervention that was engaging for people regardless of their other experiences of digital technology.                                     But what we actually did within the therapy is that we provided the phone, the app that was loaded onto a smartphone. So that it meant that people could use that and take that away and could have access to that. And it didn't need to be connected to wifi at all during the week, it was something that the person could take away, and engage with and use. And when they came back into the session, it would be synchronised with the website so that anything that they'd added they might have noticed the worry or created a helpful positive thought. It would all be synchronised so that it was held within the website. So no learning was lost, it was facilitating in that way. Dr Lucy Maddox:        I asked Angie what had changed for her in her life since SlowMo. Angie:                          Before I couldn't always get on the bus, that was a tricky one. I didn't like going into crowds, I'd stay home quite a bit. Then I did the SlowMo and the SlowMo made a real difference because it taught me how to think in a positive way and not in a negative way. And it meant that I could actually sit on a bus and not have to get off at a stop because I was feeling conscious of people looking at me. I could go out and meet friends. It really made a difference. Dr Lucy Maddox:        That's so good. A trial of the effects of SlowMo has recently been published. So what did you find? Dr Tom Ward:              So what we found is that this was an intervention that was designed to help people who were experiencing worries about harm from others or experiencing paranoia. And what we found was that people who received the therapy did show reduced levels of worries about harm from others or paranoia at our follow up periods. So it was effective in what it was designed to do.                                     One of the other things that we were trying to do here is that it's designed as a targeted intervention. So we wanted to know is it effective in helping people reduce paranoia? And if it is, does it work in the way in which it's been designed to work? And that means does it help people to slow down their fast thinking? And is that part of what helps them reduce paranoia?                                     And so what we found is that people that had the intervention were showing significant reductions in paranoia at the follow ups, compared to people who had standardised treatment as usual. And we also found that it did work in the way that we'd anticipated, it seemed to work by allowing people to slow down their thinking and worry less. So that was really, really encouraging evidence of the effectiveness of the intervention.                                     And as I've mentioned before, the significant changes were not limited to the paranoia measures that we had. We also found really important changes in areas such as quality of life, wellbeing and positive beliefs about the self, really. These are outcomes that are really valued by service users. If you think about what people want from psychological interventions and therapies, people would often say, "I want my life to be better. I want to be enjoying myself. I want to be able to go out and work."                                     So we were really, really happy to see that not only was SlowMo effective in reducing paranoia in the way that we expected it to. We were also seeing broader improvements in those important areas as well, so that was really good to see. Dr Lucy Maddox:        That's fantastic. And really great that it's actually effective in reducing paranoia as well as reducing those other outcomes to do with quality of life and how people feel. That's really exciting. Dr Tom Ward:              Absolutely. Other things that we were interested in that I'd mentioned before. We wanted to see the extent to which we were successful in designing an intervention that was engaging and accessible and liked by people. And so we're really encouraged by the evidence that we've got that this was something that people engaged with. Actually, delivering psychological therapy in the context of people who experience paranoia and may have difficulties building trusting relationships it can be challenging. And drop out from therapy is something that is a significant issue in our field. And so, from the perspective of someone who was responsible for the therapy across the trial, I was so happy to see that we managed to have 80% of the people in the trial who were allocated to receive the therapy completed all of the planned sessions. And in the context of the field that we work in, this was something that we're really happy with and speaks to an intervention that people engaged with. And we're going to be looking at also measures of enjoyment that we've also collected. And they're also showing signs that people found this an enjoyable and engaging experience. So excited about those areas of the outcomes as well as the main outcomes on paranoia and other areas. Dr Lucy Maddox:        That's great, great results. And really promising, I guess, for using this approach in the future for other sorts of interventions as well, using this design led approach. Dr Tom Ward:              Some of the things that we do take from what we've learnt is that yeah, this approach to human centred design and this engagement with thinking about making our interventions more appealing to people. This is really something that people are beginning to think about, but we need to take very seriously. Yeah, we need to start to make interventions look and feel the way people want them to.                                     And that's something important. And the other thing is about the blending of digital therapy with face-to-face therapy. I think some people understandably worry when they hear about digital therapy. And they worry that maybe we'll lose something important. That most psychologists and clinicians will think about therapeutic relationship and how central that is.                                     And I think people worry sometimes that digital technology might end up lead us away from that important truth. But what we're trying to do with the blending of digital technology is to take what we do well in face-to-face therapy and just make it better. And make it more effective, make it more engaging and make it work for people in their lives, because that's where the important change should be occurring. Dr Lucy Maddox:        I asked Angie if there was anything else she wanted to say about the therapy. Angie:                          I'd just like to say that if you're offered a therapy, then it's worth having a go. If you feel that you're in the right place in your head, and you're offered some sort of therapy, it's a good idea to embrace it and use all the help that you can. Because like me, many years ago I used to think I could cope with it and the voices would go away, and I'd be okay.                                     But if you don't take up opportunities when you feel like it, then you'll miss out and people are there to help you. And you've got to try and understand that. And also, with the SlowMo, you've got the beauty of the technology with the laptop, but you've still got the clinician working with you. So you've still got a person that you can talk to. So that's my advice to try. I know it's not always easy but try and take up things that you're offered and don't be frightened to ask, if there's anything. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yeah, that's really, really helpful advice. And actually, you asked, didn't you? And then you got on the trial, so that was really good. Angie:                          That's right, I had to keep on. But as I say, I got there, and it worked. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Yeah, it's great, good for you. Angie:                          Thank you. Dr Lucy Maddox:        Thank you to both my experts, Angie and Tom Ward. If you'd like more information on the SlowMo therapy, have a look at the show notes where you can find the website link. There's a link in there as well to Angie talking on the One Show about the therapy. For more on CBT in general, and for our register of accredited therapists, check out www.babcp.com. And have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and the problems that it can help with. I hope you've enjoyed this bonus episode. I hope things are going well for you.                                   END OF AUDIO Show Notes Websites For more about the research check out: http://slowmotherapy.co.uk Angie talks about SlowMo on The One Show: https://youtu.be/lCI7LKFbyrw For more on BABCP visit www.babcp.com Articles These academic journal articles below are all produced by the SlowMo team to investigate the therapy. Ward, T., Hardy, A., Holm, R., et al. (2022) SlowMo therapy, a new digital blended therapy for fear of harm from others: An account of therapy personalisation within a targeted intervention. Psychology And Psychotherapy: Theory, Research And Practice. DOI : 10.1111/papt.12377 Garety P, Ward T, Emsley R, et al. (2021) Effects of SlowMo, a Blended Digital Therapy Targeting Reasoning, on Paranoia Among People With Psychosis: A Randomized Clinical Trial. JAMA Psychiatry. 2021 Jul 1;78(7):714-725. doi: 10.1001/jamapsychiatry.2021.0326. PMID: 33825827; PMCID: PMC8027943. Hardy A, Wojdecka A, West J, et al. (2018) How Inclusive, User-Centered Design Research Can Improve Psychological Therapies for Psychosis: Development of SlowMo. JMIR Ment Health ;5(4):e11222 doi: 10.2196/11222 Garety, P.A., Ward, T., Freeman, D. et al. (2017) SlowMo, a digital therapy targeting reasoning in paranoia, versus treatment as usual in the treatment of people who fear harm from others: study protocol for a randomised controlled trial. Trials 18, 510 . https://doi.org/10.1186/s13063-017-2242-7 Books Overcoming Paranoid and Suspicious Thoughts by Freeman, Freeman & Garety https://overcoming.co.uk/600/Overcoming-Paranoid-And-Suspicious-Thoughts---FreemanFreemanGarety

Children don't come with a manual, and parenting can be hard. What is evidence-based parenting training and how can it help? Dr Lucy Maddox interviews Sue Howson and Jane, about their experiences of delivering and receiving this intervention for parents of primary school aged children.  Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Sue and Jane both recommended this book: The Incredible Years (R): Trouble Shooting Guide for Parents of Children Aged 3-8 Years By Carolyn Webster-Stratton (Author) Sue also recommended this book: Helping the Noncompliant Child Family-Based Treatment for Oppositional Behaviour  Robert J. McMahon, Rex L.Forehand 2nd Edition Paperback (01 Sep 2005)  ISBN 978-1593852412 Websites http://www.incredibleyears.com/ https://theministryofparenting.com/ https://www.nurturingmindsconsultancy.co.uk/ For more on CBT the BABCP website is www.babcp.com Accredited therapists can be found at www.cbtregisteruk.com   Courses The courses where Sue works are available here, and there are similar courses around the country: https://www.reading.ac.uk/charliewaller/cwi-iapt.aspx   Photo by Markus Spiske on Unsplash This episode was edited by Eliza Lomas   Transcript Lucy:   Hello and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast from the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, BABCP. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can be useful. This episode is the last in the current series so we'll be having a break for a bit, apart from a cheeky bonus episode, which is planned for a few months' time so look out for that. Today, I'm finding out about evidence-based parenting training. This is a type of intervention for the parents of primary school aged children. It draws on similar principles to cognitive behavioural therapy about links between thoughts, feelings, behaviours and bodily sensations and ideas from social learning theory. It also draws some ideas from child development such as attachment theory and parenting styles. To understand more about all of this, I met with Sue Howson, parenting practitioner who works in child mental health services and Jane, a parent who has experienced the training herself. Jane:  My name is Jane and I've got a little boy called Jack who is seven and he's in Year 3. Lucy:  And you've experienced evidence-based parenting training, is that right? Jane:  Yeah, I have. It's something called the Incredible Years. And there was a really nice lady called Sue and my school put us in touch to form a group to kind of help me manage Jack a little bit more at home. Lucy:  So, your journey into it was that the school let you know about it? Jane:  Yeah. Basically, I was having a few issues with Jack at home and I think it was kind of impacting on school as well. So, I was working with the special needs coordinator and she, obviously, had me, Jack and my family in mind as someone who might benefit from working a little bit with Sue.  I was a bit nervous at first, you know, like professionals coming in, getting involved. But she was really nice and it was really beneficial. Lucy: Is it okay to ask what sort of difficulties you were having at home, sort of what was going on? Jane:  Yeah, I can tell you now because it's all changed, it's much better. Lucy:  Oh good, that's great to hear. Jane:    I mean, Jack's a lovely boy. He's my eldest and he's really nice and just a bit of a joy – he is now. But I think one of the main things that I was struggling with, with him, was kind of difficulties with falling asleep. In the evenings, he would always want me to fall asleep either next to him or in his bed and that was kind of impacting on our evening, mine and my husband's quite a lot. And it was taking up a lot of time and I think evenings are quite hard because you're so tired and you just want to go to bed. So, that was one of the issues. And the no sleep was impacting on all aspects of our family life, really. I would just be really tired all the time and quite short, and end up shouting at Jack when I just wanted him to go to sleep and he wouldn't. And shouting wasn't ideal and doesn't help but I'd just get frustrated, really and I think quite a lot of us were quite unhappy. Lucy: That sounds super hard. Jane: Yeah. I mean, he is seven but he'd kind of throw a massive wobbly if he didn't get what he wanted, like, I don't know, like an extra biscuit or chocolate finger or something from the cupboard, he would just kind of lose it. And that was really hard to deal with, particularly when you're tired. I know you shouldn't but you always kind of end up giving in a little bit, don't you, because you just want the easy life. And you know that you shouldn't but… Sue: It's really hard when you're being shouted at or when you're exhausted like that. Jane: And I'd also feel like the path of least resistance, like sometimes it just easier to give in, even though I knew that I shouldn't. So, I guess those are the main issues, really, kind of thinking about his behaviour. And there were a few concerns from school in terms of his behaviour. Obviously, he was tired at school and maybe not doing as much as he could be schoolwork-wise. It was kind of impacting everything, really. So, that's where Sue came in. Sue: My name's Sue Howson and I am a parenting practitioner and I've worked in CAMHS for many years, background in social work. I've been working with children and families for years and years and years. But I also have a role of teaching practitioners at the University of Reading. Lucy: And do you teach practitioners about evidence-based parenting training? Sue: Yeah, absolutely. So, I have trainees coming from various different parts of the country to Reading University where we teach two really strong evidence-based parenting interventions where the practitioners become super equipped to go out into the community and offer the support that the parents need. Lucy: Fantastic. And this is all extremely topical because BABCP have recently launched the evidence-based parent training accreditation pathway. Sue: Yes, which means that the parent training pathway is now on par with the CBT pathway, which is hugely exciting for all those people out there that are actually during parent training and offering parenting interventions. It's a really great way to get those skills and practices recognised. So yes, I'm really excited by that too. Lucy: Could you say a little bit about what evidence-based parent training is? Sue:  It is a practice that is based in social learning theory and really focuses on the attachment relationships and building the relationships between parent and child and building on parental self-confidence and self-efficacy and trying to equip the parent and skill up the parent to notice particular behaviours in a child and them then feeling confident in applying a particular technique or a particular method in the moment which will make a difference to – fingers crossed – to the outcome of that little interaction between parent and child. Lucy: When we're talking about social learning theory, by that do you mean the way that we all learn from what we see around us? Sue: Yeah. It's learned from our environment and the things we see around us. Lucy: So, it's kind of providing parents and carers with a different model of how to do things. Sue: Yes. So, perhaps in their upbringing, they were brought up with one particular style of parenting and parent training offers, perhaps, a selection of different ideas on how they may choose to interact with their child that's different from the way that they were brought up. Lucy: Which is very interesting, actually, isn't it? Because, you know, it's not something that's taught in school, is it, parenting? So, it's very much something that people do quite intuitively or in the way that they've been brought up or that their friends are doing it. So, there's a lot of social influence involved, actually, isn't there? Sue:  A huge amount of social influence. And quite often, in homes, both parents don't do it the same way. So, just because you do it one way, your partner might do it in a different way and you may never have even discussed that until you reach a point where you're having challenges with your child. So, you may end up having to think about things and being much more consistent. Especially with children with ADHD and autistic spectrum difficulties, the consistency element is really, really important. Lucy:  I asked Jane what she'd expected from evidence-based parenting training. Jane: Oh, I was a bit nervous and apprehensive to begin with because, you know, it's bit embarrassing, isn't it? You're the one with the naughty kid that doesn't do what they're meant to. Sue kind of made me feel super relaxed from the start. She's really approachable and just like normal, like not too expert, not using all these words that I didn't understand. And she was quite relaxed so that kind of made me feel quite relaxed and let me feel comfortable to ask questions, even though they might have been silly or they might seem obvious. So, that was really nice in the beginning. I liked how she said things about the group rules, like intense confidentiality and respect and that made me feel like it was okay to share, really. Lucy: That sounds really important. Jane: Yeah. And I think one of the biggest things, obviously, apart from the actual strategies she gave me, was being able to meet other parents in a similar situation who had a child like mine. And we kind of set up a WhatsApp group after, which is really nice. Now Sue's worked her magic, that kind of keeps us going. Like if you're having a bad day, you can still speak to someone who knows. Lucy:  I asked Sue to talk us through what evidence-based parenting training involves and she said there are two methods. The first is the group process, which Jane did. This is usually two hours a week minimum for 12 to 14 weeks on the Incredible Years programme together with parents who are experiencing similar difficulties. Sue: The other offer would be an individual based programme, which we tend to offer for parents who find it hard to access the group. Or maybe they've tried a group before and it hasn't necessarily worked. Or a parent that doesn't feel quite ready or confident enough to go into a group so we would offer those parents a sort of one-to-one. Building a very similar model but the child is involved in those. So, the group one is just for parents but the individual programme, the child comes along to those sessions as well. Lucy: That's great. And it's lovely that it can be so flexible so it can be group or individual. That sounds really important. Sue: Both have been able to go remote now. That's been quite a spectacular shift and I think that It's gone down quite well for parents because it means they don't have to organise childcare in order to be able to attend groups and things. You know, practitioners have been able to offer them in the evenings, perhaps when kids are in bed or at school, when parents aren't working. So yeah, it's gone down really well. Lucy: That's fantastic. Yeah, that sounds really helpful. I was really curious about the sort of key skills and techniques that you teach in the evidence-based parent training. What are some of the topmost important skills do you think that get taught? Sue:  The first quarter of the programme, I would suggest, is focused on building that relationship. And that's largely done through child-led play, spending time together. Jane: One of the things that we were asked to do was to set aside 15 minutes dedicated time each day to play with him. And I loved it and I felt like I learned loads about him in terms of some of the things he could do with play that I didn't even know about because I was probably too busy doing the washing up, previously. Rather than me just getting frustrated and shouting. It really kind of built our relationship. Lucy:  That sounds really fun, actually, yeah. Jane:   Yeah, yeah, it's nice to be a big kid rather than just be adult all the time. Lucy: Back to Sue. Sue: There's a particular way of playing and it's not just what you do, it's the way that you do it. We particularly look at noticing what a child's doing well. If you've got a child who is inattentive, for example, it might be very helpful for the parent to notice when that child is paying attention and focusing. Quickly jump in with praise to encourage that child to do it again. So, that's the bit of social learning that we're building on there. So, the child is paying attention, the parent notices the child is paying attention. The parent says, well done to child, so child is more likely to pay attention in that way again. Jane: Another thing that I learned was like the attention rule. So, it's kind of drummed into us so what they always say is whichever behaviour you pay most attention to you will see more of and kind of flipping that on its head. So, thinking about what attention I was giving to Jack, whether it was positive or negative and trying to focus on the positives, really, which kind of gave me a little bit of perspective. I just felt as though he was really difficult all the time, whereas, actually, if took a step back and focused, I realised that he wasn't and there were lots of really good things that he was doing that I didn't always necessarily notice. Sue:  We also look at the ways of praising a child or rewarding a child. Quite often – and I've definitely been guilty of it myself – is putting a tag on a praise statement, for example. So, we might say, "Ooh, well done for tidying your bedroom. Why can't you do that all of the time?" And that's the tag. The tag there is, "Why can't you do that all the time?" So, we've given with one had the praise, "Well done for tidying your bedroom." But quite often as parents, we will take away the praise by adding that, "I wish you could do that all the time," or, "Why can't you be more like your brother?" Or we'll add a something that actually negates the praise.  So, parents, by week five, six are really becoming conscious of the language that they use and how impactful that can be. And this really works well with the group of kids that I've talked about already because they're quite selective with their listening, perhaps or they don't really hear it all. So, it's very powerful for kids to make sure that they're genuinely hearing praise.  What else do we do? We then go on beyond praise and start thinking about our ability to remove that attention. So, we think about how we ignore a child. And quite often, parents will tell me, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I ignore my children. I can ignore my children for five hours." We're not talking about not being with a child or the child being occupied very happily doing something else. We're actually talking about an active removal of a parental attention, which is then when the child complies again, then the parent comes back and uses their attention in a particular way to reinforce the positive behaviour. Lucy:  When would a parent do that kind of taking the attention away? Would that be in response to something in particular? Sue:  Yeah, ignoring a particular behaviour. And we suggest that those are the behaviours that are annoying type behaviours. So, we're talking about whingeing and whining and grumbling and answering back and nagging, you know, "Mummy, can I have a biscuit? Can I have a biscuit? Can I have a biscuit?" The parent has said no and that potentially could escalate between parent and child, where the child says, "You are the worst parent in the world. I hate you. It's not fair." But the parent needs to be ignoring that the whole way through. Kids are brilliant at this, absolutely brilliant, really clever at trying to get parental attention. So, they will up their behaviour. So, they may be saying, "Yeah, you're the worst parent in the world. I don't love you anymore. It's not fair. Lucy down the road, she's allowed to do this, that and the other." Quite often, parents will snap at that point, therefore, no longer ignoring the negative behaviour that the child is presenting. So, the skill is for the parent to be able to keep a lid on it until the child has run out of energy in their negative behaviour. And when the child comes back down, that's when we want parents to reengage with the child and respond in a positive way to the quiet, calm, polite behaviour that you hope your child is now exhibiting. Jane: Sue helped me, teaching me strategies to calm down, things like breathing techniques and stuff, obviously, for me and for him so that when he was on the verge of losing it, he could count to 10 or take some deep breaths. It wasn't like I was just shutting the door and leaving him to lose his mind. And that really helps. I understand ignore sounds awful but I think it's about, it's like what you do and how you do it, rather than ignoring and leaving him to it. Because that's not very nice. Sue: The idea of an ignore is only for the duration of the negative behaviour. So, if you think about the whingeing and whining for the biscuit, how long can a child continue to ask you for that biscuit? Five, 10 minutes, tops. You're not leaving them in a room, you're not walking out on them, you have just got to develop this sort of Teflon coating where you hear what they're saying but you choose not to respond to it. But it's the parent's removal of attention that's key. So, if a parent is actually leaving the room, then they're not actively ignoring, they are doing something else. But an active ignore, which is what we're talking about, the parent has to be very present because the moment the child has come back down that sort of angry curve, they come back down the other side. So, what you try to do if you wait for them to deescalate and then move on and get them involved in another task. Lucy:  I'm just thinking it's sometimes really difficult to do, isn't it, just as you describe that kind of… Sue:  Yeah. Lucy:  …snap. Just as things are escalating, particularly in a public situation. Or I guess if you feel that you're worried that the child's upset as well, it's hard, isn't it? Sue: Desperately hard, especially if you understand why your child is worried or you understand why your child is fearful, you know, if you've got an anxious child, for example. So, parents have to be able to work out which is a behaviour that they want to encourage or which is a behaviour that they want to see less of. And we spend a lot of time thinking about those things. Parents will say they're very good at ignoring children but they quite often forget to reengage at the other end. So, the active ignore is a big step. Lucy:  I wanted to know from Jane how it felt to remove a tension in more difficult settings like in public. Jane: Because I had – well, script is the wrong word – but like a thing to follow, it kind of built my confidence in being able to do it. I think once he kind of learned where the boundaries were at home, it kind of like resolved itself a little bit when we were out in public because he knew from the beginning that it wasn't going to wash and he was just going to get ignored. And flipping it on its head in terms of the negative tension, the positive tension, it just kind of got a bit easier because I felt a bit more confident and then I had the skills to cope. Lucy:  Another important aspect which Sue talked about is how we think about the language that we use when we talk to children. Sue: Quite often, we use a lot of negative commands, "Be careful." It's sort of an empty command, what does it actually mean? Whereas autistic spectrum children who probably need very, very clear communication, if they're playing on a climbing frame, for example, "Be careful," could be replaced with, "Hang onto the bars," or, "Use both feet on the climbing frame," really clear for children to know exactly what they should be doing. And it's amazing when you tune in to that and you start listening to your friends and your relatives and things, you do realise that in everyday English, we use a huge number of negative commands for children. You listen to teachers in schools and they're saying, "Don't wriggle, don't poke him next to you, don't do this, don't do that." But what we should be saying is, "Please do, please do this, please do that," because children quite often only hear the last word that comes out of our mouth. So, if we said, "Don't run," the only word they hear is run. Lucy:  Absolutely. And it's also quite negative, isn't it, if someone's constantly telling you stuff not to do. I don't know, it feels different in tone, doesn't it to telling you stuff that they would like you to do. Sue: And when you set them off, in the same CBT-type model, you set them off with homework and home practice and things to do, when they come back the following week, they often say, "Well, the atmosphere in my house completely changed because we were focusing on positives, not negatives." And again, it begins to shift what you notice as well. Jane:  It's kind of a bit of a bugbear of mine and now I've realised it. Like, quite often, a lot of my friends and even my in-laws or my parents will say, "Oh, you've done really well, good boy, good boy." And for me, it was like thinking about what that even was. Sue really helped me see the importance of being specific around the praise that you're using. So, that kind of then links it to their behaviour rather than just being, "Oh yeah, that was really good." So, specific praise for me was really important. I saw a really big impact on Jack's behaviour when I was able to use really specific praise with him to, kind of, you know, highlight the good stuff that he'd been doing, like putting his plate in the dishwasher or calming down after an ignore, you know. Like when he was able to use his breathing strategies and then come back and then when we started to play, I've said, "Well done for calming down," or that kind of stuff. So, the specific praise, brilliant. I think also, thinking about some of the phrases and the language that I use with him. So, if he's really wanting something like, I don't know, wanting loads of ice cream or something but he won't eat his dinner, a little phrase like, "When you've eaten your dinner, then you can have your ice cream," the when-then thing worked really well for me and made me think about the kind of words I was using and the impact that was having. Because, obviously, what I was doing before wasn't helping. And I guess the other big thing for me that helped was the use of rewards. So, it helped me think about a specific target for Jack in terms of how we could get him to stay in his own bed. We used like Batman stickers when he was able to do it. Lucy:  That sounds nice. Jane: And then when he did it consistently for like five nights, we then went ten pin bowling, which was lovely. Sue:  Oh great. Jane:   Yeah. Everything just became a lot more positive, really. Lucy:  That sounds really powerful. Jane:  It was, actually, yeah. Lucy: Often, parents find that things like time out just aren't necessary once praise and play and positive attention are in place. Sue: Absolutely, absolutely. And I don't know whether you've noticed that while I've been talking to you, I keep doing this, I keep forming a sort of pyramid with my hands. And the fundamentals of the parent training is really about building that broad base at the bottom, which includes play and attending to a child and listening and problem solving. These are all the building blocks of a really strong relationship. And we've got praise in there and we've got rewards in there. And then as you move up the pyramid, you've got to start thinking about the other sort of techniques. We've got the children stuff at the bottom, you know, all the stuff that you can do with your children to build the relationship. And then you start thinking about the techniques that parents can apply to kind of modify behaviour. So, that's when we start talking about ignoring or the language that we use, thinking about command statements and starting to put in boundaries. And then as you get to the tippy top of the pyramid, you're thinking about time out and the use of consequences. But fingers crossed and a lot of periods experience this when they're going through our programme, they start by saying, "I just want to hear about time out. I just want to hear about how to do it better." We say, "Hey! No, no, no, we're going to start at the bottom. We're going to build that relationship." And by the time we get to the point where we want to tell them about time out, they actually find that they don't need to use time out as much as they did at the beginning because they have so many other effective strategies on managing behaviour and noticing different behaviours before we get to the top, before we get to the point where we may need to put in a consequence or a time out. Lucy: And the very, very end bit of that pyramid that you were describing, the time out is probably something that people kind of are really familiar with, actually, because it's around because of programmes like Supernanny. Sue:  Yeah, you're right and people love it on Supernanny, because she spends a lot of time talking about "naughty steps," doesn't she? Lucy:  There's a lot of naughty steps in Supernanny. Is it the same in evidence-based parenting training or is it a bit different? Sue:  It's similar but it does hang onto that idea of differential attention. So, you can't just put a child on a naughty step or a naughty spot – and we wouldn't necessarily use that phrase – we would encourage a parent to be removing their attention on purpose for a period of time. And that time is linked to age, which is very much similar to the Supernanny model. But one of the things that we would absolutely advocate is making sure that when the child has completed their moment of exclusion, the child comes back into the family activity in a calm state and they're not expected to say sorry. They're just expected to come back calm and quiet and you just move on with your activity. A lot of parents don't necessarily like hearing the bit about not saying sorry. One of the ways I try to describe it is if you've ever had an argument yourself, you don't immediately calm down. You're not always receptive to apologising or hearing somebody else's view. So, by asking a child to apologise in that moment, you either get a, "Ugh, sorry!" which doesn't mean anything anyway or you will get a reignition of the fire, of the flames of the heat of that moment. So, it's actually better to choose your moment to have that discussion, have that teaching element of your parental relationship when the child is calm or by modelling calm yourself or reminding them of what they do well, going back down that pyramid and through play. And the child will enjoy the attention they're getting so much when they're being played with in a particular and positive way versus the attention they get when they are simmering and smouldering. So, that's the rationale. Lucy: It also sounds less shaming because there's something tricky, isn't there, about when any of us have been told off, that rush of shame that you get to begin with. I guess your kind of avoiding like really going over that by getting a child to go over things and say sorry. Sue: Yes, when they've thrown something at their brother and that's why you've removed them from that scenario for a few minutes, they know that they shouldn't have thrown that thing at their brother or they shouldn't have kicked you or they shouldn't have sworn at you. So, that's the sort of step on from the ignore and ignore is in the moment hoping that the child can deescalate, wind themselves back in. But if you feel like they have gone beyond that, so there are some behaviours that we completely see as being completely unacceptable and those are the sort of violent behaviours, then that's when we would put them into the total removal of parental attention, the sort of time out type space. And so, we do spend quite a bit of time thinking about parents' thoughts and their physical emotion. So, we think about how cross they are when they're ignoring or how wound up they are when they're trying to do time out and we think about how they choose to behave, how they choose to respond to their child as a result of those thoughts and those feelings. So, we try to incorporate those three elements as best we can. Lucy: I was curious to know whether Jane used any of the techniques from the top of the pyramid like time out with her son. Jane: I don't really feel as though we had to use it so much, I think mainly because of Jack's age, he's a bit bigger now. The ignore and the praise and the play and the positive attention and also building the relationship had the biggest impact. And like Sue talked quite a lot about your pyramid being upside down beforehand or properly ignoring, you know, with any like real idea of how to do it or what I was doing. Or maybe trying to put him on the step and then he wouldn't and then it just all goes wrong. So, I was probably doing a lot of that at the beginning whilst trying to get through my day and not spending enough time with him and not doing the bottom stuff, which I think, obviously, is what for me has made the biggest difference. Lucy: But you were doing the best you could, weren't you, at the time? Jane:   Yeah. Lucy:  Super hard. Jane:  I feel like they don't come with a manual, do they? But that's why the group kind of helped really. It gave me a bit of perspective like to stand back and think about things that are kind of happening on a day-to-day and what was going on for both of us, really. And also like a checklist in my head about what to do and when and that was amazing in terms of my confidence, really. Lucy:  I asked Sue what changes she saw from the start of the programme to the end. Sue: Yes, most parents want to come in and they really, really want to hear about these big time out, big guns approaches, potentially as a little bit of resistance to the idea of building a relationship. "Oh come on, come on, come on, let's move on. I just want to hear about the big stuff. Why are we wasting our time on this little stuff? I just want to hear about the big stuff." But by week three or four, they really do begin to see shifts in the way their children are responding to them and the tone in the house about noticing the positives rather than just looking at the negatives. So, we really see shift early on.  And like I say, by the end, fingers crossed, you would hope that parents are not needing… you know, they feel quite proud when we get to the sort of time out stage of the programme and they go, "Yeah, I get this but I don't need it," you know.  So, we do see big, big, big shifts through parents. And one of the things I love and one of the reasons I just keep going with this is because I see that confidence building in parents. And we have parents coming back and saying, "Yeah, we only talked about getting my child to bed but I now realise that if I just apply the same ideas and the same principles, I can use that with, ooh, getting him into school or encouraging him to do his homework." So, there are all sorts. We are building skills which you then hope can be sort of expanded out and used in all sorts of settings. Lucy:   And it's called evidence-based parent training. What is the evidence base like for it? Sue: The evidence base for both of the programmes that I've mentioned so helping the non-compliant child and in particular the Incredible Years, I mean, Incredible Years has had 25 years of research and has been developed over, I think it's now delivered in 32 countries in 32 different languages to all sorts of different communities. And it isn't prescriptive. Parents come along and you work with parents' individual goals. So, each individual in that group will be working towards their own goal in that group but they'll have the support of the leaders plus their colleagues in that group who will help them reach that goal. So, it's sort of tailor made, if you like, to fit individuals who are going through similar things but individuals within a group. Or in the individual programme it's even more tailor made by definition, I suppose. But yes, the shifts are huge and it doesn't necessarily happen in two or three weeks. I think sometimes, parent training has been thought to be done to somebody. But you definitely have to have this sort of collaborative relationship, there's no other word for it, but this joint working in order to reach the parents' goals. So, I think that's really important to get the outcomes that you want. If I was just telling somebody to do this, you know, "Go home tonight and do this," that wouldn't necessarily have the impact of exploring how it's going to work in your house. And thinking about the parent, well, they know their children the best, don't they? So, you work with whatever the parent is bringing to you and thinking about how these principles will apply in that instance. Lucy:   And what do you like about your role delivering evidence-based parenting training? Sue:  I like the fact that parents become much more confident in their parenting skill. I love the fact that they come in a little bit like sort of timid mice and go out like roaring lions with the confidence that they've got by the end. I think it changes the way they relate to their children, I think it changes the way they relate to each other as parents and I think it just changes atmospheres in households, which I think is really magical. Lucy:  I asked Jane if there was anything she didn't like about the sessions and she had no bad things to say. So, I asked her what she enjoyed about it. Jane:   Learning about how to play properly, I think. With Jack, I'm not being like too directive. Like before I was like, "Jack, do this, do this, build your tower, build your train track like that, that's wrong, dah, dah, dah," and I didn't realise how negative I was being. So yeah, I guess the most enjoyable bit for me was having that dedicated time to spend with Jack playing and watching him play and kind of getting to know him a bit more. Playing and building our relationship really was my favourite. Lucy:  And what sort of difference has it made? Jane:   I just think everyone's a lot happier at home, which is great. I'm not shouting as much. Jack's a lot happier because he's not being shouted at. And the whole house is just a lot calmer and a lot happier and everyone is a lot more positive towards each other and it just makes the atmosphere a lot nicer. There's a lot less whingeing and moaning and whining from all of us and nagging. (Laughs) And yeah, I feel like, because Jack's now able to sleep in his own bed properly without me, it's really had a positive impact on mine and my husband's relationship because we actually get an evening together to watch Strictly Come Dancing or, I don't know, something that's not to do with the kids. So, that's really helped. And I think also because Jack's now sleeping better and things are happier at home, school is better as well, he's not so tired. So, he's able to focus a bit more and get on with his schoolwork a bit more. So, that's the kind of feedback I've had from school, which is nice. Lucy:  It sounds like a really good result. Jane:  Oh yeah, I loved it, yeah, I loved it. It changed my life, anyway. I'd recommend it to anyone. And no matter how hard a problem seems, there will be someone else out there that's got a problem like you. You're not on your own and it's okay to struggle. Pretty life changing, really. Lucy:  If you're listening and you want to know more about how to access this sort of support, you can explore your local services online and check out Incredible Years groups in particular. You can also ask your GP who may refer you to Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services.  If you've got a child with a diagnosis with ADHD and you want this sort of support, you can ask, "Where can I access parent-based intervention?"  Thank you so much to both of my experts, Sue Howson and Jane. If you'd like more information on evidence-based parenting training, have a look at the show notes. And for any parents juggling home school and work at the moment, my thoughts are with you and I really hope you're doing okay. For more on CBT in general and for a register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.comand have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and the problems it can help with. There are quite a few episodes to do with children, including Shirley Reynolds on values-based activities in the pandemic and Maria Loades on helping children with loneliness during Covid-19. That's all for now, take care. END OF AUDIO    

In this episode Dr Lucy Maddox speaks to Sharon and Dr Anne Garland, about CBT for depression. Hear how Sharon describes it, and how both group and individual therapy helped.  Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Books Overcoming Depression by Paul Gilbert Podcast Episodes CBT for Perfectionism Compassion Focussed Therapy Websites www.babcp.com www.cbtregisteruk.com Image by Kevin Mueller on Unsplash Transcript   Lucy: Hello and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast from the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, BABCP. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can be useful.   In this episode we're thinking about CBT for depression. I spoke with Dr Anne Garland who spent 25 years working with people who experience depression and Sharon, who has experienced it herself.   Both Anne and Sharon come from a nursing background. Anne now works at the Oxford Cognitive Therapy Centre as a consultant psychotherapist, but she used to work in Nottingham, which is where Sharon had CBT for depression. Here's Sharon.   How would you describe what depression is like?   Sharon: When I was going to school, when I was a little girl, an infant, we would have to go over the fields because I lived in the country, and go down. I could hear the bell of the junior school but couldn't find it because of the fog. I walked round and round, I was five, walked round and round and round in those fields trying to get to the bell where I knew I would be safe and being terrified on my own. And that's how it feels actually. Darkness, cold, very frightening.   Lucy: I asked Anne how depression gets diagnosed and she described a range of symptoms.   Anne: In its acute phase it's characterised by what would be considered a range of symptoms. So, tiredness, lethargy, lack of motivation, poor concentration, difficulty remembering. Some of the most debilitating symptoms are often disturbed sleep and absence of any sense of enjoyment or pleasure in life and that can be very distressing to people. People can be really plagued with suicidal thoughts and feelings of hopelessness that life is pointless.   I think one of the most devastating things about depression as an illness is it robs people of their ability to do everyday things. So for example, getting up, getting dressed, getting washed, deciding what you want to wear can all be really impaired by the symptoms of depression. I try and help people to understand that the symptoms are real, they're not imagined. Often people will tell me that they imagine these things or that they aren't real and that it's all in their mind.   Their symptoms are real, they exist in the body and do exert a really detrimental effect on just your ability to do what most of us take for granted on a day-to-day basis.   Lucy: And so it's a lot more than sadness isn't it?  Anne: Absolutely. It can be very profound feelings of sadness but often that's amplified by feelings of extreme guilt, of shame, anger and anxiety is another common feature of depression.   Also, when people are very profoundly depressed they can actually just feel numb and feel nothing and that in itself can be very distressing because things that might normally move you to feel a real sense of connection. Say for example your children or your grandchildren, you may have no feelings whatsoever, and that in itself can be very alarming to people.  Lucy: The way that depression and its treatment are thought about can vary depending on who you speak to. Just like with other sorts of mental health problems. More biological viewpoints prioritise thinking about brain changes that can occur with depression while more social perspectives prioritise thinking about the context that people are part of.   Anne: As CBT tends to take a more pragmatic view of thinking about a connection between events in our environment, our reactions to those in terms of biology, thoughts, feelings and behaviour and how all of those things interact and that's a very pragmatic way of thinking about things really. And I guess traditionally in CBT there's the idea of making what is referred to as a psycho biosocial intervention. What that essentially means is that you can use medication plus psychological therapies – particularly CBT in this instance – and interventions that may influence your environment.   If you do those things altogether then you're more likely to get a better outcome, which is really what our service in Nottingham is predicated on that idea. That if you think about all of those aspects in a practical, pragmatic way, then that may maximise your chances of seeing an improvement in depression.   And I think one of the challenges in depression, if you look at the research literature, is once you've had one episode of depression, you have a 25% chance of another. Once you've had two, a 50% chance. And once you've had three, a 95% chance of another episode. So the concept of recurrence becomes really important.   A lot of the work we do with people who have more persistent treatment resistant depression is really trying to help the person develop strategies for managing the illness on a long term basis. So it's very much about trying to manage your mood and how you structure your day and your life and activities and that type of thing. I can be a very complex illness to work with.   Lucy: For Sharon, her first experience of depression was 20 years ago when depression suddenly had a huge effect on her and her life.   Sharon: And at the time the word they used was 'decompensated'. Like a little hamster in a wheel and I just couldn't keep going anymore and everything fell apart. I ended up being admitted to a psychiatric hospital for a few weeks.   Lucy: Ten years later, Sharon had another episode.   Sharon: I just couldn't manage everything, working full-time, single parent, no family support and it just all imploded, I just couldn't manage, I became really depressed again.   Lucy: This time she saw a psychiatrist who suggested she try CBT alongside medication. Although reluctant, she went ahead with it. At the time the therapy offered had little effect on her.   Sharon: I can't describe it, it juts was an academic exercise to me.   Lucy: However, a few years later he doctor encouraged her to try CBT again.   Sharon: Because I like to please, not upset anyone, I went along to it. And it was a group CBT and it was compassion-focused, compassionate-based CBT and it was over about 20-24 weeks, something like that. We met every week, this small group.   Lucy: This time it was different, things started making sense for her.   Sharon: We went through that limbic system, the old brain, the new brain, the threat, soothing, drive, and all this explanation which for me, was a very good fit. Because suddenly, it was like a revelation, "So it's not just me being weak then." Even though people had told me, I didn't really believe it.   So this information was important for me and from that we started to develop the discussions of, "Why do I think the way that I do?" Which was what the early CBT had done but somehow this meant more. It actually touched me.  And being in that small group and hearing other people talking and the two therapists that were there guiding, compassionate responses and, "What would we say to this person?" enabled me to see actually far more clearly the relevance of what they were doing.   Lucy: That sounds super helpful.   Sharon: You could offer a compassionate response and you could see the effect it was having and when they said to me I found it very hard to take, I couldn't accept anybody being kind or compassionate.   Lucy: Sharon had a combination of group compassion-focused CBT which you can also hear more about in the episode on compassion-focused therapy, as well as individual CBT for depression. I asked Anne to talk us through how individual CBT for depression works.   Anne: Well, CBT for depression has two aspects to it really. The first aspect is the idea of symptom relief and really the purpose of that aspect of the treatment is really to try and help people re-engage with activities.   Say for example you feel too tired to get up out of bed, get washed and dressed and make your breakfast in the 30 minutes you normally would have done that, you might try and break that down into smaller tasks. So you might get out of bed and have a cup of tea. You then might get your breakfast and have another break and then you might get dressed.   So this idea that if you make an allowance for your energy levels, your concentration and try and approach tasks by breaking them down into manageable chunks, that will start to get you active again. So that's really the first step of symptom relief.   The second aspect of symptom relief in depression is really trying to look at the role thoughts might play in the context of depressed mood. And what the research tells us in the cognitive science of depression is once mood becomes depressed, thinking becomes more negative in content. It also becomes more concrete and more over general, so it's hard for us to be specific in our recall.   And another important factor, a thing that occurs once mood becomes depressed is our memory more readily recalls past unpleasant painful memories and actively screens out positive or neutral memories. The reason why this is important is that our ability to solve problems is really based on being able to retrieve information from the past about how we did that.   But once mood becomes depressed, you're trying to do an everyday thing like say, I don't know, mend a broken sink pipe, and you're trying to do that, but because your mood is depressed and your concentration isn't great, it's harder to do. But also, all that's coming back to you is all the times things have gone wrong, not the times when they've gone well. There's a tendency when mood is depressed for thinking to be very all or nothing. Or you might predict that if you try something it won't work and therefore you don't do it. So it's really about trying to work at that level as well.   The second part to CBT is really what I would call a more psychological component which is really trying to look at some of what the theory might refer to as psychological vulnerability. So trying to look at some of our beliefs that might underpin our depressive episodes or might make it difficult for us to make progress.   Lucy: Looking at the underlying beliefs was something Sharon remembers as being important for her.   Sharon: So the group was great and from that I then moved into a yearlong one-to-one CBT. And that went into, right back to early life experiences, what sort of things have actually helped to develop you, it's not your fault, these things happened to you, you were too young, you had no control. And a lot of forgiveness, which I've never been able to forgive myself even though I now accept I never did anything wrong. And I wouldn't have been able to do that before.   But the outcomes from that yearlong – it's longer than a year because I became very unwell – but when we got to the end of it, we'd worked through looking at the rules that I live my life with and deconstructing them. Where have they come from? Do they stand up to scrutiny? What might be better rules to live with? All with this compassionate focus.   And at the end of it, I've still got it now, I've got it with me now actually, it's like a little credit card size piece of card, laminated cardboard with the rules on it, my new rules in case I need a little sort of quick fix of reminder of it. But they're there, so it's there all the time.    Lucy: Would you be able to give an example of one?   Sharon: I mean the major one, I was a perfectionist. I had to do everything right. And that's because I used to get punished, I had a very traumatic, abusive childhood and was punished quite a lot, quite severely. And so I had to get everything right and it had to be right the first time and if I didn't, I'd get really stressed and worried about it.   In order to replace that now is, I like to do things to a high standard, but it's okay when they don't go to plan. Good enough is okay. So things just have to be good enough.   Lucy: That's great, it sounds a really nice modification because it's not like you're giving up on liking to do things to a high standard but you're just being a bit kinder to yourself with that.   Sharon: Yes, that's right and to say good enough is okay, yeah.   And the other thing, I'm very obedient, still. If somebody tells me to do something, I'm very likely to do it because I fear consequences. And so that was one that guided, was a very strong guiding thing. And then the other one, so once you've got that, it's okay to be myself, I can let my own needs and feelings be known. I get along with others, but I don't have to do what they say.   Lucy: Lovely.   Sharon: So they're just a couple of examples for the way it changed from my rigid control of myself to get through life safely. It was all about safety with me, and security, being safe. To actually thinking, you don't need to do that, it's not necessary. You can relax and enjoy yourself and there are no consequences of any significance, to me personally.   Lucy: Some of Sharon's unhelpful rules for living came from difficult early experiences, although sometimes it's less clear where these rules come from. You don't have to know to be able to use CBT.   It's super helpful to have those examples because I think it can feel so abstract can't it, when somebody is referred to therapy and they're not really sure what it's like. I just think it really helps to hear the exact experiences that somebody else has had.   Sharon: Lots of things actually. You don't realise, I found, you don't actually realise you're living by these rules. It sounds ridiculous (laughs), I didn't realise until it was discussed in detail with me, gently probing and not going any further than I wanted to. But each time a bit further until actually it was out there. I kind of realised, that's how I was thinking because it's so tightly hidden.   Lucy: I asked Anne if someone was a fly on the wall watching a session, what would they see going on?   Anne: I guess they would see really, in terms of starting at the very beginning, trying to help the person to consider the links between events in their environment and then biological symptoms, thoughts, feelings and behaviour.   Just to give you a very simple example of that, say you've been depressed for six months and your sleep is affected, it's taken you until 3:00 in the morning to get to sleep and the alarm has gone off at 7:00, so you've woken up in bed. That would be your event in your environment. You feel exhausted and your head is like cotton wool. That would be biological symptoms. And importantly there, most of us when we're deprived of sleep might feel that way but that becomes intensified in depression.   You might have thoughts like, I can't be bothered to get up, I feel really tired. You might notice that your mood is really low and so you might lay longer in bed. But also then you might have overslept, so you might then start to have critical thoughts like, you're really useless, you can't even get out of bed on time, you're going to let people down at work, you're going to be in trouble. You might then start feeling anxious and perhaps a bit guilty.   So you'd really be trying to help people to see that sort of connection.   The aim of antidepressants, if people use them, is really to try and help them to influence some of the biological symptoms of depression and lift mood slightly. So some people do recognise in taking an antidepressant that their mood lifts slightly, some of the symptoms are a bit better. They can do a bit more and therefore their thoughts are not necessarily as negative in content or they're not as harsh with themselves.   What we're trying to do in CBT is add to the effects of that by tackling behaviour and thoughts. Usually one of the first homework assignments is to complete an activity schedule. An activity schedule is a diary with every day of the week broken down into hourly slots and what we ask the person to do is keep a record of what they're doing on an hour-by-hour basis.   We ask them to rate two things there. One is mastery, which is how well you engaged with the activity given how you were feeling. And given how you were feeling is really important because an important part of that initial rationale is making an allowance for the symptoms of depression which are real.   And then the second rating is how much you enjoyed it. So it's really important to check out if the person feels able to do that.   On the basis on that you'd look for patterns and quite often what you'd see is a pattern between inactivity and low mood and that's often a marker for rumination.   Also you'd be trying to look for if there had been any activities that are giving the person any sense of pleasure and when you do the ratings, you rate it on a scale of nought to 10. So nought is low and 10 is the high end. And really anything over a four is quite good when your mood is depressed, so that's what we'd be looking for.   Then we might try and look at activities that the person used to do and enjoy but they've given up. Or activities that the person is avoiding and try and think about how we can re-engage with some of those.   Lucy: Here's Sharon on how her life has changed through doing activities that make her feel good.   Sharon: I had a big fear of meeting up with people, so I wouldn't go to anything social. I've been on my own since the relationship ended 20 years ago and I just won't take the chance, I won't risk it again. And all of these things I've relaxed now – not that I'm going out with anybody – but I am actually more willing. I meet people for coffee now and I'll join up with a dog walk and things with other people. Whereas before I'd always make an excuse at the last minute and not go. And I stopped doing that.   Anne: Another important factor in these early stages is really just trying to think also about the effects of not eating and not having a good sleep routine because those two things can really amplify biological symptoms.   Trying to get people to eat regularly and again, with the sleep, trying to re-establish a sleep routine. Thinking about things like caffeine consumption and perhaps not drinking any caffeine after lunch. So very practical things to start with and then trying to begin to schedule pleasurable activities. And also, as I said before, breaking tasks down into manageable chunks.  Lucy: It sounds like breaking stuff down, making it really small and manageable and scaling things back is really important. What other sorts of things might somebody see if they were observing a CBT session?  Anne: I guess they would see us working together. It's very much what's referred to as a collaborative endeavour. The person receiving treatment, they bring their expertise and knowledge in how depression affects them on a day-to-day basis. And I bring my expertise and knowledge in terms of how to help people begin to tackle their depression.   We'd also be writing lots of things down. Working towards goals as well, goal setting is a very important part of CBT. So the beginning of treatment you'd be thinking about what problems the person wanted to tackle and what would be the goals that would indicate you'd started to work on those problems.   So it's very much a participative activity, is CBT. So the person really needs to make an active commitment to try and work within the model. Now obviously depressive symptoms in themselves can make that a challenge because lack of motivation is a key symptom of depression.   So again, in the early stages you might see the therapist working very hard to help the person to engage with treatment.   Lucy: Negative automatic thoughts are those which occur to us automatically. So we don't have control over thinking that way. And they tend to frame the experiences that we're having in a way that makes us feel bad about ourselves, or what we're doing, or about the world around us. They can have a really big impact on our mood and sometimes we don't even notice that they're happening.   For people who experience depression, automatic negative thoughts such as 'I can't cope', can often be problematic and persistent.   How might CBT help people to manage those thoughts?  Anne: Well, there's a variety of methods that can be used. The first one is really just trying to help the person to recognise when they occur, so what are the triggers to them. And also how do they make them feel and what is the impact of that.   And then you can try what's called modifying or challenging automatic thoughts. So you can apply a series of questions to a thought, what is the evidence for the thought? What is the evidence against the thought? What is the alternative perspective?  And this is a really useful strategy when you're working with depression because people with depression apply rules to themselves that they wouldn't apply to other people. So very typically I might ask the person, "Can you tell me the name of somebody whose opinion you respect?" And then I would say, "If you heard your friend Jane say that she was lazy, what would you say to her?" And then I might reverse that and say, "If Jane were here, what would Jane say to you?"  What you're trying to do is bring flexibility to the thought processes because in depression thinking processes are very rigid, they're very all or nothing, so they don't see the shades of grey and they're very over general.   You then also try to help them to think about what is the impact of thinking this way, or what can you do next? How can you test this out? Which is where the idea of behavioural experiments come from.   Lucy: Behavioural experiments are planned activities to test the validity of a belief. They're an information gathering exercise, so we test how accurate an individual belief is.   For Sharon re-joining her group helped her test some of her beliefs about what the group members thought about her having left.   Sharon: The group was a challenge because I don't like being in a group with people. It's an effort to keep smiling. But I learnt there that I didn't need to. So I'd be stressed before I went there for quite a number of them and actually I just stopped going, just after halfway through because I just couldn't cope with it. It was just too intense, it was too much.   And so Catherine phoned me and persuaded me back and I said, "I can't go in there, I can't go in there," and I walked out. I can't go back in that room when I've walked out. And it was just gentle nudging and when I went in they were just, "Oh, hello," nobody made a comment at all and I was astonished because I thought somebody was going to say, "Oh, back are you?" Not at all, and that was another illustration of my disordered thinking.   So that was a tiring six months, but at the end of it I felt quite upbeat that I'd achieved something.   The individual sessions for the year, they were always extremely positive. But I always came out of there feeling that it was a job well done, I'd achieved something. I never felt, "Ugh, I'm not coming back," not once. It was excellent from start to finish.   Lucy: I wanted to know from Sharon how she coped with negative thoughts and if she uses the techniques which Anne mentions.   Sharon: I still use all those CBT techniques of the alternative way of looking… What's another reason that this could be…? Is that really the way this is when you're feeling down? Deconstruct it. What actually is it that's a concern here? And are you actually…? Are you thinking about this clearly or could something else be happening? So I still use all of those techniques every day.   Lucy: Do you? It's really hard isn't it when you're having a worry or a thought about how things are in your own head that's distressing. It feels real doesn't it? We all feel that our reality is real. How do you manage to capture those thoughts and to sort of use those techniques?  Sharon: I write it down. Things, when they start to swirl around my head and then I know from experience when I'm feeling well, this is just going to look nothing like the original issue unless you get it out of your head. And so I write it down and then I think, what's actually… I deconstruct it and then put it back together again.   Lucy: And when you're coming out of it, did you notice yourself coming out of it? Did you notice things changing or was it after it's gone that you kind of look back and see it differently?   Sharon: Coming out of it, in some ways it's a bit scary actually because you get used to being in that gloom and that dark. And it requires effort to re-engage and make contact with people and all the rest of it.   It was a year ago that I finished; I've been well since then, yeah. So I felt smiley, I've had a few, we all have in the last year haven't we, had a lot of low… Even thinking like that, thinking it's not me not trying hard enough, I'm thinking why wouldn't I feel like this? Everybody is feeling like this. So I consider that, when I think like that, I give myself a little mental pat on the shoulder for thinking, "Excellent thinking Sharon."  Lucy: I asked Anne what the evidence base was like for CBT for depression.   Anne: Well, there's a very strong evidence base that goes right back to the 70s and 80s really. Essentially, if you summarise, if you look at NICE guidance, what the research tells us is that CBT used alone is as effective as an antidepressant on its own. The two things in combination produce the best outcome. Particularly for people who have moderate to severe depression.   For people who have more mild depression, you might actually just start with CBT and that can be highly effective.   Lucy: The current NICE guidelines recommend CBT for depression and also a range of other treatments. I've put a link in the show notes for those guidelines.   Anne: If you look at the evidence base for people with more persistent treatment resistant depression, there is evidence from two studies that I was involved in. One back in the 90s with Jan Scott and Eugene Paykel who were both professors of psychiatry who have now retired. And a more recent one that Richard Morris, Professor of Psychiatry in Nottingham and I conducted where we looked at using CBT in combination with pharmacology for people with more, either chronic depression or persistent treatment resistance. And there is a lot of evidence that it's very effective in helping people manage the disorder rather than trying to get rid of it completely.   Lucy: That's really helpful for people to know isn't it? I suppose not everything might totally resolve and it might be more a case of living with it effectively.   Anne: Exactly, yeah.   Lucy: Are there things you think people should know before they come for CBT?  Anne: I think particularly just picking up on that last point as well, thinking about the impact of childhood trauma can have in terms of depressed mood. When we think about trauma we're thinking about that in a broad context of it might be sexual and physical abuse, but much more commonly, it's actual emotional abuse and neglect, childhood neglect, particularly in terms of how that impacts on what psychology would refer to as attachments. Our ability to make and maintain reciprocally beneficial relationships with other people.   And there's increasing amount of evidence to show that where attachments are disrupted, then that can have a profound effect in terms of adult depression. And I think that's where a lot of the research is focusing now in terms of thinking about how you might develop more focused interventions in CBT terms.   I think the other thing is that CBT is a very practical therapy. So there's an idea that you participate, you will be asked to complete, what we refer to as 'homework', which isn't a phrase many people like. So you'd be asked to work on your problems in between sessions.   Initially it's very here and now focused. So it's really trying to think about what your problems are on a day-to-day basis in terms of how the depression affects you. And then later in therapy if necessary, we might go back to some childhood events. But generally speaking you only go backwards to the degree to which it tells you how that influences what goes on in the here and now.   It's also about doing, it's not just about talking.   Lucy: For Sharon, although she doesn't feel depression has disappeared completely from her life, she's found a way to cope and see her thoughts for what they are, thoughts, rather than acting on them. I wanted to know what she would say to anybody thinking of trying CBT for depression.   Sharon: Go for it! Definitely! I think the thing is to be prepared; you've got to put some effort into it to get something out of it.   Lucy: The experience that Sharon had of trying therapy more than once and finding it a better fit at a later date can happen to anyone, either because the therapist is a better fit, the type of approach works more or sometimes because the therapist has had more experience in a particular model of therapy.   It's always okay to raise it with a therapist if you feel like things aren't working for you. It's also important to be able to check out what training or experience the therapist has had with treating the problem that you're going to see them for. One way to check this out is by seeing if they're accredited with BABCP.   Sharon: As I say, it was a revelation. In fact one of the biggest things was listening to people talking. You think, gosh, that's how I think!   Lucy: If you'd like more information on CBT for depression, have a look at the show notes. For more on CBT in general and for a register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com.   Have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and the problems it can help with.   There's one with Paul Gilbert, who Anne mentions and also Chris Winson, who speak about compassion-focused therapy for depression. And there's loads more on other common problems that CBT can help with including anxiety.   Thank you to both of my experts, Sharon and Dr Anne Garland.   Thank you for listening and I hope you're keeping well in these odd times we're all living through. Until next time, take care.   END OF AUDIO   

Anxiety is one of the most common mental health problems, but there's a good evidence-base for CBT as a helpful intervention. In this podcast, Dr Lucy Maddox speaks with Dr Blake Stobie and Claire Read, about what CBT for anxiety is like, and how anxious thoughts can be like the circle line.  Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Websites BABCP https://www.babcp.com Accredited register of CBT therapists https://www.cbtregisteruk.com Anxiety UK https://www.anxietyuk.org.uk NICE guidelines on anxiety https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/qs53 Apps Claire recommended the Thought Diary Pro app as being helpful to use in conjunction with therapy to complete thought records.  https://www.good-thinking.uk/resources/thought-diary-pro/ Books Claire recommended this workbook on Overcoming Low Self Esteem by Melanie Fennell https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Low-Self-Esteem-Self-help-Course/dp/1845292375/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=self+esteem+workbook+melanie+fennell&qid=1605884391&s=books&sr=1-2 And this book by Helen Kennerley on Overcoming Anxiety is part of the same series https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Anxiety-Books-Prescription-Title/dp/1849018782/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=overcoming+anxiety&qid=1605884437&s=books&sr=1-1 Credits Image used is by Robert Tudor from Unsplash Podcast episode produced and edited by Lucy Maddox for BABCP Transcript   Lucy: Hello and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast from the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, BABCP. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can be useful.   In this episode we're thinking about CBT for depression. I spoke with Dr Anne Garland who spent 25 years working with people who experience depression and Sharon, who has experienced it herself.   Both Anne and Sharon come from a nursing background. Anne now works at the Oxford Cognitive Therapy Centre as a consultant psychotherapist, but she used to work in Nottingham, which is where Sharon had CBT for depression. Here's Sharon.   How would you describe what depression is like?   Sharon: When I was going to school, when I was a little girl, an infant, we would have to go over the fields because I lived in the country, and go down. I could hear the bell of the junior school but couldn't find it because of the fog. I walked round and round, I was five, walked round and round and round in those fields trying to get to the bell where I knew I would be safe and being terrified on my own. And that's how it feels actually. Darkness, cold, very frightening.   Lucy: I asked Anne how depression gets diagnosed and she described a range of symptoms.   Anne: In its acute phase it's characterised by what would be considered a range of symptoms. So, tiredness, lethargy, lack of motivation, poor concentration, difficulty remembering. Some of the most debilitating symptoms are often disturbed sleep and absence of any sense of enjoyment or pleasure in life and that can be very distressing to people. People can be really plagued with suicidal thoughts and feelings of hopelessness that life is pointless.   I think one of the most devastating things about depression as an illness is it robs people of their ability to do everyday things. So for example, getting up, getting dressed, getting washed, deciding what you want to wear can all be really impaired by the symptoms of depression. I try and help people to understand that the symptoms are real, they're not imagined. Often people will tell me that they imagine these things or that they aren't real and that it's all in their mind.   Their symptoms are real, they exist in the body and do exert a really detrimental effect on just your ability to do what most of us take for granted on a day-to-day basis.   Lucy: And so it's a lot more than sadness isn't it?  Anne: Absolutely. It can be very profound feelings of sadness but often that's amplified by feelings of extreme guilt, of shame, anger and anxiety is another common feature of depression.   Also, when people are very profoundly depressed they can actually just feel numb and feel nothing and that in itself can be very distressing because things that might normally move you to feel a real sense of connection. Say for example your children or your grandchildren, you may have no feelings whatsoever, and that in itself can be very alarming to people.  Lucy: The way that depression and its treatment are thought about can vary depending on who you speak to. Just like with other sorts of mental health problems. More biological viewpoints prioritise thinking about brain changes that can occur with depression while more social perspectives prioritise thinking about the context that people are part of.   Anne: As CBT tends to take a more pragmatic view of thinking about a connection between events in our environment, our reactions to those in terms of biology, thoughts, feelings and behaviour and how all of those things interact and that's a very pragmatic way of thinking about things really. And I guess traditionally in CBT there's the idea of making what is referred to as a psycho biosocial intervention. What that essentially means is that you can use medication plus psychological therapies – particularly CBT in this instance – and interventions that may influence your environment.   If you do those things altogether then you're more likely to get a better outcome, which is really what our service in Nottingham is predicated on that idea. That if you think about all of those aspects in a practical, pragmatic way, then that may maximise your chances of seeing an improvement in depression.   And I think one of the challenges in depression, if you look at the research literature, is once you've had one episode of depression, you have a 25% chance of another. Once you've had two, a 50% chance. And once you've had three, a 95% chance of another episode. So the concept of recurrence becomes really important.   A lot of the work we do with people who have more persistent treatment resistant depression is really trying to help the person develop strategies for managing the illness on a long term basis. So it's very much about trying to manage your mood and how you structure your day and your life and activities and that type of thing. I can be a very complex illness to work with.   Lucy: For Sharon, her first experience of depression was 20 years ago when depression suddenly had a huge effect on her and her life.   Sharon: And at the time the word they used was 'decompensated'. Like a little hamster in a wheel and I just couldn't keep going anymore and everything fell apart. I ended up being admitted to a psychiatric hospital for a few weeks.   Lucy: Ten years later, Sharon had another episode.   Sharon: I just couldn't manage everything, working full-time, single parent, no family support and it just all imploded, I just couldn't manage, I became really depressed again.   Lucy: This time she saw a psychiatrist who suggested she try CBT alongside medication. Although reluctant, she went ahead with it. At the time the therapy offered had little effect on her.   Sharon: I can't describe it, it juts was an academic exercise to me.   Lucy: However, a few years later he doctor encouraged her to try CBT again.   Sharon: Because I like to please, not upset anyone, I went along to it. And it was a group CBT and it was compassion-focused, compassionate-based CBT and it was over about 20-24 weeks, something like that. We met every week, this small group.   Lucy: This time it was different, things started making sense for her.   Sharon: We went through that limbic system, the old brain, the new brain, the threat, soothing, drive, and all this explanation which for me, was a very good fit. Because suddenly, it was like a revelation, "So it's not just me being weak then." Even though people had told me, I didn't really believe it.   So this information was important for me and from that we started to develop the discussions of, "Why do I think the way that I do?" Which was what the early CBT had done but somehow this meant more. It actually touched me.  And being in that small group and hearing other people talking and the two therapists that were there guiding, compassionate responses and, "What would we say to this person?" enabled me to see actually far more clearly the relevance of what they were doing.   Lucy: That sounds super helpful.   Sharon: You could offer a compassionate response and you could see the effect it was having and when they said to me I found it very hard to take, I couldn't accept anybody being kind or compassionate.   Lucy: Sharon had a combination of group compassion-focused CBT which you can also hear more about in the episode on compassion-focused therapy, as well as individual CBT for depression. I asked Anne to talk us through how individual CBT for depression works.   Anne: Well, CBT for depression has two aspects to it really. The first aspect is the idea of symptom relief and really the purpose of that aspect of the treatment is really to try and help people re-engage with activities.   Say for example you feel too tired to get up out of bed, get washed and dressed and make your breakfast in the 30 minutes you normally would have done that, you might try and break that down into smaller tasks. So you might get out of bed and have a cup of tea. You then might get your breakfast and have another break and then you might get dressed.   So this idea that if you make an allowance for your energy levels, your concentration and try and approach tasks by breaking them down into manageable chunks, that will start to get you active again. So that's really the first step of symptom relief.   The second aspect of symptom relief in depression is really trying to look at the role thoughts might play in the context of depressed mood. And what the research tells us in the cognitive science of depression is once mood becomes depressed, thinking becomes more negative in content. It also becomes more concrete and more over general, so it's hard for us to be specific in our recall.   And another important factor, a thing that occurs once mood becomes depressed is our memory more readily recalls past unpleasant painful memories and actively screens out positive or neutral memories. The reason why this is important is that our ability to solve problems is really based on being able to retrieve information from the past about how we did that.   But once mood becomes depressed, you're trying to do an everyday thing like say, I don't know, mend a broken sink pipe, and you're trying to do that, but because your mood is depressed and your concentration isn't great, it's harder to do. But also, all that's coming back to you is all the times things have gone wrong, not the times when they've gone well. There's a tendency when mood is depressed for thinking to be very all or nothing. Or you might predict that if you try something it won't work and therefore you don't do it. So it's really about trying to work at that level as well.   The second part to CBT is really what I would call a more psychological component which is really trying to look at some of what the theory might refer to as psychological vulnerability. So trying to look at some of our beliefs that might underpin our depressive episodes or might make it difficult for us to make progress.   Lucy: Looking at the underlying beliefs was something Sharon remembers as being important for her.   Sharon: So the group was great and from that I then moved into a yearlong one-to-one CBT. And that went into, right back to early life experiences, what sort of things have actually helped to develop you, it's not your fault, these things happened to you, you were too young, you had no control. And a lot of forgiveness, which I've never been able to forgive myself even though I now accept I never did anything wrong. And I wouldn't have been able to do that before.   But the outcomes from that yearlong – it's longer than a year because I became very unwell – but when we got to the end of it, we'd worked through looking at the rules that I live my life with and deconstructing them. Where have they come from? Do they stand up to scrutiny? What might be better rules to live with? All with this compassionate focus.   And at the end of it, I've still got it now, I've got it with me now actually, it's like a little credit card size piece of card, laminated cardboard with the rules on it, my new rules in case I need a little sort of quick fix of reminder of it. But they're there, so it's there all the time.    Lucy: Would you be able to give an example of one?   Sharon: I mean the major one, I was a perfectionist. I had to do everything right. And that's because I used to get punished, I had a very traumatic, abusive childhood and was punished quite a lot, quite severely. And so I had to get everything right and it had to be right the first time and if I didn't, I'd get really stressed and worried about it.   In order to replace that now is, I like to do things to a high standard, but it's okay when they don't go to plan. Good enough is okay. So things just have to be good enough.   Lucy: That's great, it sounds a really nice modification because it's not like you're giving up on liking to do things to a high standard but you're just being a bit kinder to yourself with that.   Sharon: Yes, that's right and to say good enough is okay, yeah.   And the other thing, I'm very obedient, still. If somebody tells me to do something, I'm very likely to do it because I fear consequences. And so that was one that guided, was a very strong guiding thing. And then the other one, so once you've got that, it's okay to be myself, I can let my own needs and feelings be known. I get along with others, but I don't have to do what they say.   Lucy: Lovely.   Sharon: So they're just a couple of examples for the way it changed from my rigid control of myself to get through life safely. It was all about safety with me, and security, being safe. To actually thinking, you don't need to do that, it's not necessary. You can relax and enjoy yourself and there are no consequences of any significance, to me personally.   Lucy: Some of Sharon's unhelpful rules for living came from difficult early experiences, although sometimes it's less clear where these rules come from. You don't have to know to be able to use CBT.   It's super helpful to have those examples because I think it can feel so abstract can't it, when somebody is referred to therapy and they're not really sure what it's like. I just think it really helps to hear the exact experiences that somebody else has had.   Sharon: Lots of things actually. You don't realise, I found, you don't actually realise you're living by these rules. It sounds ridiculous (laughs), I didn't realise until it was discussed in detail with me, gently probing and not going any further than I wanted to. But each time a bit further until actually it was out there. I kind of realised, that's how I was thinking because it's so tightly hidden.   Lucy: I asked Anne if someone was a fly on the wall watching a session, what would they see going on?   Anne: I guess they would see really, in terms of starting at the very beginning, trying to help the person to consider the links between events in their environment and then biological symptoms, thoughts, feelings and behaviour.   Just to give you a very simple example of that, say you've been depressed for six months and your sleep is affected, it's taken you until 3:00 in the morning to get to sleep and the alarm has gone off at 7:00, so you've woken up in bed. That would be your event in your environment. You feel exhausted and your head is like cotton wool. That would be biological symptoms. And importantly there, most of us when we're deprived of sleep might feel that way but that becomes intensified in depression.   You might have thoughts like, I can't be bothered to get up, I feel really tired. You might notice that your mood is really low and so you might lay longer in bed. But also then you might have overslept, so you might then start to have critical thoughts like, you're really useless, you can't even get out of bed on time, you're going to let people down at work, you're going to be in trouble. You might then start feeling anxious and perhaps a bit guilty.   So you'd really be trying to help people to see that sort of connection.   The aim of antidepressants, if people use them, is really to try and help them to influence some of the biological symptoms of depression and lift mood slightly. So some people do recognise in taking an antidepressant that their mood lifts slightly, some of the symptoms are a bit better. They can do a bit more and therefore their thoughts are not necessarily as negative in content or they're not as harsh with themselves.   What we're trying to do in CBT is add to the effects of that by tackling behaviour and thoughts. Usually one of the first homework assignments is to complete an activity schedule. An activity schedule is a diary with every day of the week broken down into hourly slots and what we ask the person to do is keep a record of what they're doing on an hour-by-hour basis.   We ask them to rate two things there. One is mastery, which is how well you engaged with the activity given how you were feeling. And given how you were feeling is really important because an important part of that initial rationale is making an allowance for the symptoms of depression which are real.   And then the second rating is how much you enjoyed it. So it's really important to check out if the person feels able to do that.   On the basis on that you'd look for patterns and quite often what you'd see is a pattern between inactivity and low mood and that's often a marker for rumination.   Also you'd be trying to look for if there had been any activities that are giving the person any sense of pleasure and when you do the ratings, you rate it on a scale of nought to 10. So nought is low and 10 is the high end. And really anything over a four is quite good when your mood is depressed, so that's what we'd be looking for.   Then we might try and look at activities that the person used to do and enjoy but they've given up. Or activities that the person is avoiding and try and think about how we can re-engage with some of those.   Lucy: Here's Sharon on how her life has changed through doing activities that make her feel good.   Sharon: I had a big fear of meeting up with people, so I wouldn't go to anything social. I've been on my own since the relationship ended 20 years ago and I just won't take the chance, I won't risk it again. And all of these things I've relaxed now – not that I'm going out with anybody – but I am actually more willing. I meet people for coffee now and I'll join up with a dog walk and things with other people. Whereas before I'd always make an excuse at the last minute and not go. And I stopped doing that.   Anne: Another important factor in these early stages is really just trying to think also about the effects of not eating and not having a good sleep routine because those two things can really amplify biological symptoms.   Trying to get people to eat regularly and again, with the sleep, trying to re-establish a sleep routine. Thinking about things like caffeine consumption and perhaps not drinking any caffeine after lunch. So very practical things to start with and then trying to begin to schedule pleasurable activities. And also, as I said before, breaking tasks down into manageable chunks.  Lucy: It sounds like breaking stuff down, making it really small and manageable and scaling things back is really important. What other sorts of things might somebody see if they were observing a CBT session?  Anne: I guess they would see us working together. It's very much what's referred to as a collaborative endeavour. The person receiving treatment, they bring their expertise and knowledge in how depression affects them on a day-to-day basis. And I bring my expertise and knowledge in terms of how to help people begin to tackle their depression.   We'd also be writing lots of things down. Working towards goals as well, goal setting is a very important part of CBT. So the beginning of treatment you'd be thinking about what problems the person wanted to tackle and what would be the goals that would indicate you'd started to work on those problems.   So it's very much a participative activity, is CBT. So the person really needs to make an active commitment to try and work within the model. Now obviously depressive symptoms in themselves can make that a challenge because lack of motivation is a key symptom of depression.   So again, in the early stages you might see the therapist working very hard to help the person to engage with treatment.   Lucy: Negative automatic thoughts are those which occur to us automatically. So we don't have control over thinking that way. And they tend to frame the experiences that we're having in a way that makes us feel bad about ourselves, or what we're doing, or about the world around us. They can have a really big impact on our mood and sometimes we don't even notice that they're happening.   For people who experience depression, automatic negative thoughts such as 'I can't cope', can often be problematic and persistent.   How might CBT help people to manage those thoughts?  Anne: Well, there's a variety of methods that can be used. The first one is really just trying to help the person to recognise when they occur, so what are the triggers to them. And also how do they make them feel and what is the impact of that.   And then you can try what's called modifying or challenging automatic thoughts. So you can apply a series of questions to a thought, what is the evidence for the thought? What is the evidence against the thought? What is the alternative perspective?  And this is a really useful strategy when you're working with depression because people with depression apply rules to themselves that they wouldn't apply to other people. So very typically I might ask the person, "Can you tell me the name of somebody whose opinion you respect?" And then I would say, "If you heard your friend Jane say that she was lazy, what would you say to her?" And then I might reverse that and say, "If Jane were here, what would Jane say to you?"  What you're trying to do is bring flexibility to the thought processes because in depression thinking processes are very rigid, they're very all or nothing, so they don't see the shades of grey and they're very over general.   You then also try to help them to think about what is the impact of thinking this way, or what can you do next? How can you test this out? Which is where the idea of behavioural experiments come from.   Lucy: Behavioural experiments are planned activities to test the validity of a belief. They're an information gathering exercise, so we test how accurate an individual belief is.   For Sharon re-joining her group helped her test some of her beliefs about what the group members thought about her having left.   Sharon: The group was a challenge because I don't like being in a group with people. It's an effort to keep smiling. But I learnt there that I didn't need to. So I'd be stressed before I went there for quite a number of them and actually I just stopped going, just after halfway through because I just couldn't cope with it. It was just too intense, it was too much.   And so Catherine phoned me and persuaded me back and I said, "I can't go in there, I can't go in there," and I walked out. I can't go back in that room when I've walked out. And it was just gentle nudging and when I went in they were just, "Oh, hello," nobody made a comment at all and I was astonished because I thought somebody was going to say, "Oh, back are you?" Not at all, and that was another illustration of my disordered thinking.   So that was a tiring six months, but at the end of it I felt quite upbeat that I'd achieved something.   The individual sessions for the year, they were always extremely positive. But I always came out of there feeling that it was a job well done, I'd achieved something. I never felt, "Ugh, I'm not coming back," not once. It was excellent from start to finish.   Lucy: I wanted to know from Sharon how she coped with negative thoughts and if she uses the techniques which Anne mentions.   Sharon: I still use all those CBT techniques of the alternative way of looking… What's another reason that this could be…? Is that really the way this is when you're feeling down? Deconstruct it. What actually is it that's a concern here? And are you actually…? Are you thinking about this clearly or could something else be happening? So I still use all of those techniques every day.   Lucy: Do you? It's really hard isn't it when you're having a worry or a thought about how things are in your own head that's distressing. It feels real doesn't it? We all feel that our reality is real. How do you manage to capture those thoughts and to sort of use those techniques?  Sharon: I write it down. Things, when they start to swirl around my head and then I know from experience when I'm feeling well, this is just going to look nothing like the original issue unless you get it out of your head. And so I write it down and then I think, what's actually… I deconstruct it and then put it back together again.   Lucy: And when you're coming out of it, did you notice yourself coming out of it? Did you notice things changing or was it after it's gone that you kind of look back and see it differently?   Sharon: Coming out of it, in some ways it's a bit scary actually because you get used to being in that gloom and that dark. And it requires effort to re-engage and make contact with people and all the rest of it.   It was a year ago that I finished; I've been well since then, yeah. So I felt smiley, I've had a few, we all have in the last year haven't we, had a lot of low… Even thinking like that, thinking it's not me not trying hard enough, I'm thinking why wouldn't I feel like this? Everybody is feeling like this. So I consider that, when I think like that, I give myself a little mental pat on the shoulder for thinking, "Excellent thinking Sharon."  Lucy: I asked Anne what the evidence base was like for CBT for depression.   Anne: Well, there's a very strong evidence base that goes right back to the 70s and 80s really. Essentially, if you summarise, if you look at NICE guidance, what the research tells us is that CBT used alone is as effective as an antidepressant on its own. The two things in combination produce the best outcome. Particularly for people who have moderate to severe depression.   For people who have more mild depression, you might actually just start with CBT and that can be highly effective.   Lucy: The current NICE guidelines recommend CBT for depression and also a range of other treatments. I've put a link in the show notes for those guidelines.   Anne: If you look at the evidence base for people with more persistent treatment resistant depression, there is evidence from two studies that I was involved in. One back in the 90s with Jan Scott and Eugene Paykel who were both professors of psychiatry who have now retired. And a more recent one that Richard Morris, Professor of Psychiatry in Nottingham and I conducted where we looked at using CBT in combination with pharmacology for people with more, either chronic depression or persistent treatment resistance. And there is a lot of evidence that it's very effective in helping people manage the disorder rather than trying to get rid of it completely.   Lucy: That's really helpful for people to know isn't it? I suppose not everything might totally resolve and it might be more a case of living with it effectively.   Anne: Exactly, yeah.   Lucy: Are there things you think people should know before they come for CBT?  Anne: I think particularly just picking up on that last point as well, thinking about the impact of childhood trauma can have in terms of depressed mood. When we think about trauma we're thinking about that in a broad context of it might be sexual and physical abuse, but much more commonly, it's actual emotional abuse and neglect, childhood neglect, particularly in terms of how that impacts on what psychology would refer to as attachments. Our ability to make and maintain reciprocally beneficial relationships with other people.   And there's increasing amount of evidence to show that where attachments are disrupted, then that can have a profound effect in terms of adult depression. And I think that's where a lot of the research is focusing now in terms of thinking about how you might develop more focused interventions in CBT terms.   I think the other thing is that CBT is a very practical therapy. So there's an idea that you participate, you will be asked to complete, what we refer to as 'homework', which isn't a phrase many people like. So you'd be asked to work on your problems in between sessions.   Initially it's very here and now focused. So it's really trying to think about what your problems are on a day-to-day basis in terms of how the depression affects you. And then later in therapy if necessary, we might go back to some childhood events. But generally speaking you only go backwards to the degree to which it tells you how that influences what goes on in the here and now.   It's also about doing, it's not just about talking.   Lucy: For Sharon, although she doesn't feel depression has disappeared completely from her life, she's found a way to cope and see her thoughts for what they are, thoughts, rather than acting on them. I wanted to know what she would say to anybody thinking of trying CBT for depression.   Sharon: Go for it! Definitely! I think the thing is to be prepared; you've got to put some effort into it to get something out of it.   Lucy: The experience that Sharon had of trying therapy more than once and finding it a better fit at a later date can happen to anyone, either because the therapist is a better fit, the type of approach works more or sometimes because the therapist has had more experience in a particular model of therapy.   It's always okay to raise it with a therapist if you feel like things aren't working for you. It's also important to be able to check out what training or experience the therapist has had with treating the problem that you're going to see them for. One way to check this out is by seeing if they're accredited with BABCP.   Sharon: As I say, it was a revelation. In fact one of the biggest things was listening to people talking. You think, gosh, that's how I think!   Lucy: If you'd like more information on CBT for depression, have a look at the show notes. For more on CBT in general and for a register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com.   Have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and the problems it can help with.   There's one with Paul Gilbert, who Anne mentions and also Chris Winson, who speak about compassion-focused therapy for depression. And there's loads more on other common problems that CBT can help with including anxiety.   Thank you to both of my experts, Sharon and Dr Anne Garland.   Thank you for listening and I hope you're keeping well in these odd times we're all living through. Until next time, take care.     END OF AUDIO   

We tend to think about therapy as something that is helpful for individuals, but what about when you want to address problems which affect you and a partner or spouse? In this episode, Dr Lucy Maddox speaks to Dan Kolubinski about cognitive behavioural couples therapy, and hears from Liz and Richard about what the experience was like for them.  Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Dan recommended the book Fighting For Your Marriage by Markman, Stanley & Blumberg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fighting-Your-Marriage-Best-seller-Preventing-dp-0470485914/dp/0470485914/ref=dp_ob_title_bk Some journal articles on couples therapy are available free online here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-cognitive-behaviour-therapist/information/let-s-talk-about-cbt-podcast The podcast survey is here and takes 5 minutes: https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/podcastLTACBT The BABCP website is at www.babcp.com And the CBT Register of accredited CBT therapists is at https://www.cbtregisteruk.com Photo by Nick Fewings on Unsplash   Transcript Lucy: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT. It's great to have you listening.   When we think about therapy, we often think of one-to-one conversations between one person and their therapist. But what about when the problems that we're going for help with are related to how we're getting on with a partner or a spouse? Cognitive behavioural couples therapy helps with these sorts of difficulties. To understand more about it I spoke to a married couple, Richard and Liz, and Dan Kolubinski, their therapist.   Richard and Liz did this therapy privately, but couples therapy is also available on the NHS to help with some specific difficulties. We hear more about that from Dan later on. For now though let's hear what Richard and Liz thought of their couples therapy in this interview which I recorded with them remotely.   Richard: My name's Richard. I'm 37 years old and I've been married to Liz for just over seven years now. I'm a postie at the moment, and kind of lived in Essex most of my life.   Liz: It's like a dating programme.   Richard: It is, isn't it? Yeah, a little bit. (laughs)  Liz: So I'm Liz and I make cakes for a living, and write about mental health. So that's us.   Lucy: That's great. So thanks so much for agreeing to speak with me about your experience of couples therapy, and specifically cognitive behavioural couples therapy. Would you mind telling me how you came across it and what made you think you might want to try it?  Liz: Yeah. So I think it's something that we've spoken about in the past. And we've both had therapy separately, and I think we've both had various different types of therapy. So Richard has had CBT before, I think we've both done psycho-dynamic counselling.   So when we decided we were going to do it, we realised that for us it was more beneficial to almost do a crash course, as it were, together. So to do a whole weekend, rather than a little bit once a week. And that was how we discovered Dan, and were able to book in with him.   Richard: Yeah, I think we both understand the value or had both experienced and understood the value of therapy individually. So it was kind of an easy step for us then to decide there could be a lot of value in doing this together.   Lucy: That makes total sense. So you already had a bit of an understanding of what it might be like, or what it's like on an individual level?  Liz: Yeah, definitely. And actually very early on in our marriage we had some couples counselling, which I don't think was actually as successful, and it was after that that we had separate counselling. And I think it was after we were both able to get ourselves into better positions, as it were, that that's when we were able to come back together and experience some therapy together.   Lucy: That's really interesting. Do you think that helped you access the conversations together in a different way?  Richard: Yes, I think it did. I think we both had an experience of therapy, of CBT and of other therapies, and the structure they would take or how they engaged you and enabled you to talk safely, and the prompts that might be used.   When we did it together, it did make the conversations a bit freer, a bit more open. And I think we both felt it was a safe environment, which when we first had it I don't think we did feel. And that made a big difference I think.   Liz: Yeah. And I think as with any relationship, until you've got a level of happiness with yourself, it's very difficult to have a relationship with somebody else that involves vulnerability or trust.   And I don't think we had that the first time we tried having counselling together. I think we were almost so reliant on our relationship to form who we were, that the first time around we put too much pressure on ourselves, on the relationship, and also on the counselling, and we expected some magic wand. Whereas now we've realised it actually does take a bit of work.   Richard: Yeah.   Liz: But obviously the pay-off is huge, so that's brilliant.   Lucy: That's so nice. Sometimes you see adverts for couples counselling, or couples conversations, when people are thinking of getting married. Was that something that was around for you?  Liz: (Laughs) Yeah, slightly ironically we started it and it was meant to be three sessions long, or four sessions long, and I think before the second or third session we had such a big argument that we never went back.   So yeah, again it's something that I think in hindsight there were warning bells that both of us were probably having our own inner struggles, as it were. And that we weren't really able to reap the benefits of that pre-marriage counselling. But I would definitely recommend it to any friends who were getting married.   Richard: Yeah, absolutely.   Liz: I'd definitely recommend it, even if it's just to get the conversation started.   Lucy: Yeah, it's interesting. So there are some conversations it feels like almost we don't quite have permission to have without somebody prompting it or some kind of structure around it.   Liz: Yeah, definitely. And I think it takes a certain amount of emotional maturity to have conversations like that, or the difficult conversations, and not to take something personally or get defensive. And I think that that's something as a society we don't necessarily encourage people to have those conversations, or to be able to freely explore things without there being some element of self-worth dependent on it.   Lucy: Liz and Richard went for therapy after experiencing a bit of a rocky patch in their relationship.   What was it like going for the weekend?  Richard: I think it was really beneficial. It's certainly something that – hopefully we'll never be in that similar circumstance again – but in a situation where we thought it was beneficial, doing it over… was it three nights?  Liz: Yeah, three nights.   Richard: Was really valuable, because it kept you in that space. So there were no distractions from, I don't know, going to work, having to get back, get to the session.   Then inevitably when you finish the session you get home and normal life kicks in straightaway. So whether it's cooking dinner or having to get ready for the next day, that's unavoidable. But in this situation we were really able to take ourselves away from normality and the routine, and really focus on it. And I think it had a great impact doing it that way.   Liz: Definitely. And also I think that having – because the sessions each day I think ran from 10:00 till 1:00, and then 2:00 till 4:00. So having those extended sessions meant you could really get down to what was happening and really attack that. As opposed to when it's say weekly, hour long sessions, having to almost get past the initial boundaries that you might have set up and break those down, and get into a place of being able to talk freely.   Lucy: And were there other people there as well? Were there other couples there or was it just you?  Liz: It was just us.   Richard: Yeah.   Lucy: And what was it like before you went? Was it frightening to think about going?  Richard: I suppose for me it was a sense of that nervous excitement. So I didn't quite know what was going to happen. I knew what I wanted from it. And it was the kind of knowledge that this was going to be good for us, at least for me.   Liz: Definitely. And I think one of the first things, on our first evening there, we had the initial introduction session together. And Dan did say it was quite unusual to be dealing with a couple who were in such a good place. And that was quite nice actually, and we definitely subscribe to the idea that therapy isn't just for when something goes wrong; it's actually really useful to keep things right, as it were.   And I think it was funny because the things we thought we were going to end up talking about over the weekend, actually it all came down largely to communication, which I think is often the case with couples. And learning how to communicate with each other.   Lucy: Before we hear more about Richard's and Liz's experience, here's Dan to give the bigger picture on this type of therapy.   Dan: My name is Dr Dan Kolubinski, and I am the clinical director of Reconnect UK, which is a CBCT based intensive retreat programme.   Lucy: And what's your professional background?  Dan: My master's degree is in counselling psychology, and a PhD in psychology as well. And I've been a CBT therapist for about 15 years now.   Lucy: Cognitive behavioural couples therapy might be something that people haven't heard of before. Could you explain what it is?  Dan: Well, as in CBT, in cognitive behavioural therapy, there are these two different aspects; there are cognitions and there are behaviours. The ideas are that if you change those two things you might change how a person feels. And with the couples aspect of it, it's built on the same principles, but trying to treat a relationship rather than an identified client. It's not just about one person, it's about how the two of them as a unit are.   So the primary focus is on the behaviour side of things. The idea is that if I can change what the couple are doing, that will change the way that they think about each other which will change the fundamental feelings of the relationship.   And so that breaks down into a couple of different components. There's on the one hand, 'do nice things'; trying to bring up some of those caring behaviours. That if I know what my partner likes and how they feel cared for, we have to guide the couple sometimes to actually doing those things.   And the other thing is around skill building. So we'll have things particularly around communication; really breaking it down to some of the fundamentals of how we talk to one another to make sure the message that's sent is the message that's received.   Lucy: Could you give some examples of the sorts of changes in the way that people talk to each other that you might encourage?  Dan: There are a couple of one-liners that I like to use in the work that I do. And one of the big ones I think that comes up in communication is that it's very important to listen in order to understand, rather than listen in order to respond.   So most of the time when couples get into a conversation, even the positive ones but especially the negative ones, rather than hearing what the other person is saying, what we have a tendency to do is already think about what we're going to say next. And so I'm not engaging with what my partner is saying, I'm already finding holes in their argument, I'm already stating my next case in my head.   And so we really have to stop that process so that people can slow things down and really make sure that what's coming across is what was meant to come across. So that idea of I need to button my lip, I need to put my world view on the shelf and I need to listen to what's being said, in order to understand it.   Lucy: That sounds super useful for all sorts of relationships actually.   Dan: Absolutely, yeah. These are generalisable principles, I think. It's when we're dealing with a couple, that's really the emphasis, but the same sorts of principles can be used for other family members, can be used for co-workers, can be used for neighbours. It's all about just two people interacting with each other.   Lucy: And so if a couple came to a therapist for cognitive behavioural couples therapy, what could they expect?  Dan: They can expect somebody who's there to try and understand their own point of view, but isn't going to take their side. So the role of the therapist really is to try and guide those conversations, and shift away from accusations and misunderstandings.   And to act almost as a bit of a mediator sometimes, in the very beginning. Eventually, like any good CBT therapist, our job is to try and make ourselves obsolete as quickly as possible. So it is about trying to skill them up to have those conversations. But in the beginning we can be there to try and translate; make sure that the message that's sent is the message that's received.   One thing that I meant to say, and I got a bit side-tracked, was one of the key principles is if I do something different then my partner might do something different. Usually what we're doing is we're waiting for our partner to do something different before I do something different.   And there are some interesting things with that. Number one is I have to take the lead; if I put 55% to 60% of the responsibility for my relationship on my shoulders, and just expect 40% to 45% from my partner, then if both people are doing that then they probably stand a good chance. So I'm not doing a tit for tat, trying to keep score; I'm actually taking a little bit more of the initiative, willingly. And then if I do that, chances are I'm going to inspire that good in my partner and they'll do that as well.   But the other thing that comes up I think in a lot of sessions is that people have a tendency to do something that seems like a good idea at the time, but can be really destructive to a relationship, and that is we have a tendency to follow the golden rule. Now what I mean by that is that the golden rule, treat other people the way you want to be treated – and it sounds good, and generally I'm very supportive of it – but it actually ends up being really bad relationship advice. It becomes so much more important to treat the other person the way that they want to be treated.   So if I'm doing all of the nice things for my partner that I would want her to do for me, they're not going to land well. And I'm not going to get the credit for them, because I'm not speaking in her language, I'm speaking in mine.   Lucy: So are the first few sessions trying to get that shared understanding with a couple, of what the problems are?  Dan: Typically. The first few sessions are usually assessment-based. So an assessment would take a little bit longer in CBCT than it would with CBT. Because typically – and again, this is something that couples can expect – the first session would usually be with the couple themselves. Coming in, getting a sense of the history, where they are now, current state of play, what might bring them to therapy. And getting their story; what brought them up to this particular point. We go right back to the very beginning.   And I think there it's necessary not just to hear what the couple is saying, but also how the couple are saying it. There's a fair amount of information in how people tell their own story. And then we can see if there still is some love there between the two of them; if they're warm and fuzzy. It's amazing when you ask a couple how did they meet, they both look at each other and they smile. That can be really quite telling, compared to those that just stare off into the distance as if they wished that day didn't happen.   But then we get into conversations with them as individuals. So there will be a couple of sessions where it is about tell me your story, tell me your side of things. We need to be able to understand both of them. And so that's a part of the assessment as well.   And then the final assessment session would be bringing it together. So as CBT therapists, we'll draw this out in what we call a formulation, which is just this diagram that links our thoughts, our emotions and our behaviours, and our view of the world, to one another, to each other.   Because I can see my partner's behaviour, what I can't see is what's underneath that. What are their thoughts? How are they feeling in these moments when they do what they do that drives me crazy, and then how do I react, and then how does my reaction then impact my partner? So we'll go through a session looking at that system, and the habits that have been formed.   And then from there we'll get into the communication side of things. I usually do. Starting off with the talking element of trying to understand each other. And at the same time, usually for homework between sessions, we would also expect a fair amount more of the positive behaviour, the caring behaviour. So that they're actually do something differently; hitting the ground running and trying to demonstrate that they care about one another, which they typically aren't doing by default.   Lucy: Are there any other concrete examples from therapy of things you encourage people to do differently, that have caused a change in thinking?  Dan: Yeah, I think generally speaking, there's a common thing that I see with a lot of couples. When we get into the formulation diagram – and so as I said, it has this connection between what we're thinking, what we're feeling and what we're doing. And it's informed by this higher idea of how we see the world.   And if I'm looking at my partner's behaviour for example – and I'm doing that through my lens, I'm doing that through the way that I see the world – well that's just going to be crazy town. It's not going to make any sense to me whatsoever; "I don't know why you're being so unreasonable. Can't you see that?"  And then we start to slow things down and start to highlight the other person's framework. And if I'm really open to that, that you see the world from a certain point of view, where we agree, we don't have problems. The problems come from where we might be on a different page. And we've done that because we've had different experiences.   And when couples start to really slow it down and listen to where those connections are being made, or how those experiences have shaped why they might see things the way that they might see things, it is amazing how the walls start to come down.   Lucy: I bet that's really rewarding.   Dan: Absolutely, absolutely. But frustrating in equal measure, because it's also one of those things that might be blatantly obvious to the therapist, but it's not obvious to the couple.   Lucy: Back to Richard and Liz. I wanted to know what practical techniques they'd learned that they could use day-to-day?  Richard: Yeah, so I think one of the early ones we did at the weekend was just about active listening. And like Liz says, a lot of it was about communication. And so we did some exercises talking about aspects of our relationship, and ensuring each of us was being listened to properly. And so we did an element of one person would talk about how they were feeling and the other person would almost paraphrase, and repeat it back to them to try and ensure that they had taken in what they were saying and understood it.   And the understanding bit was key, because initially there's that aspect of right, I need to remember this and say back to her, so to your other half. But if you do that, and I'll admit I did that initially, you get caught out so quickly because all you're trying to do is to remember it to repeat, instead of actually taking it in. And so that was a really valuable exercise that we've tried to continue using day-to-day as much as we can.   Liz: Yeah. And I think one thing that really stuck with me was we did an exercise about what's the best case scenario to come out of this, how does that look, what will happen if that doesn't happen? And so actually exploring possible consequences. And I found that really helpful. Because I think so often you can get caught up in the moment and being concerned with who's in the right, who's in the wrong, who hasn't washed up, whatever. And actually lose sight of what it means and what could that niggle lead to, and is it important in the run of things?  Yeah, it was very helpful to be able to step out and be given written exercises to help us step out of the now and consider what the future looks like together, and what we can do to make that happen.   Lucy: How nice to be asked what the best case scenario is as well.   Liz: Yes.   Lucy: I don't know about you, but I so often spend time worrying about the worst case scenario, so yeah.   Liz: For me it always sticks in my mind now, that if something happens, I think is bringing this up, is fussing over this going to get me closer to that best case scenario? If it's not, then can you let it go? And that's quite helpful. Like I say, I do that all the time, I let so much stuff go now. (Laughs)  Lucy: It's super hard though this stuff though, isn't it? It's really hard.   Liz: It is. And I think especially at the moment, I think that's the thing. The idea of being able to step out of things is very helpful at the moment because emotions are running high, and so it can be difficult sometimes to know if what you are feeling is actually a direct consequence of something that has happened with your partner, or just made up of general stress about everything.   Richard: The current situation.   Liz: Yes, absolutely.   Lucy: Are there other things that you think people should know, if they're thinking of embarking on cognitive behavioural couples therapy?  Liz: I'd say that it's definitely an investment. Because it's not the cheapest thing to do, especially if you're doing a weekend of it. But the pay-off has been incredible. And this is why we were so eager to speak to you, because we do still get so much from it.   So for example one thing we'd spoken about at the weekend was the idea of having time to check in with each other each week. And talk about how things are going and what our hopes are for the week ahead, and also hold each other accountable for things if we need to.   And so now once a week we have what we call an MM, our Marriage Meeting. And every week we come to the meeting with two things that we're grateful for, or that we've really appreciated that the other one has done in the week. And I love a spreadsheet, so we have a little form that we fill out that basically at the beginning says we will always come to these meetings positive and ready to engage.   And that has been really lovely, and that's something that I think has kind of become part of our week now, hasn't it?  Richard: It has. Very much so, yeah.   Liz: It's really lovely. And I mean I'd say physically things are much better as well. So obviously things… It seeps into other aspects of a relationship; when certain aspects are good other aspects are good.   Richard: Sometimes it may only be 20 minutes or something like that. So it's not something that will last for hours, but it's just a really good way to check in with each other.   Liz: Yeah. And initially we made sure we kind of sat down at a desk or on the sofas opposite each other. And now we have got to the stage, when the weather's been nice, we might sit outside in the sun with a G&T and have it. Or we've had a couple where one of us is sat in the bath and the other one is sat there chatting. So we are now integrating it into our everyday life, but it's a specific thing we make sure we do.   Lucy: It's interesting though the idea of the meeting, because it's such an important area of our lives, and yet we don't always put the same amount of effort into it that we might a job or other aspects of our life.   Liz: Yeah, it's funny you say about the job, because one thing that really struck me from that weekend, was when we spoke about relationships and roles in a relationship, and we said how essentially we have roles to play. So initially we audition for that role when we're getting to know each other. And then it's like okay, I've interviewed you for this job, you can be the role of my boyfriend or fiancé or husband, and we need to show up in those roles. And we need to give consideration to what we've agreed to be together in each other's lives.   And that I think was something that really hit home for me as well. And I think the meetings help us do that in a sense; we both show up to work each week.   Richard: We do indeed.   Liz: And it just resets that I think.   Lucy: As I mentioned earlier, Richard and Liz did their therapy sessions over the course of one intensive weekend, and it was a private arrangement rather than an NHS service.   Dan explained to me what other sorts of options are available.   Dan: There are these two different streams I guess that would be useful to see what might be accessible via the NHS. I should say that within the NHS, the real criteria there is mainly around depression; I think some services will offer it for substance misuse as well. So it would be good to know what might be available and what the criteria would be in order to be able to access that.   And so as a useful treatment for depression, usually you would have one, and then sometimes two people, who would meet the criteria for a mood disorder. And in couples therapy, the relationship and the depression can relate to each other; they can build on each other. And so by treating the relationship you can have a significant impact on depression.  In private practice, which is where I think most couple therapists reside, there it would be accessing online directories, looking at Google, typing in things like CBCT, cognitive behavioural couples therapy, or just behavioural couple therapy.   I should add that there are those therapists who actually don't look at the thoughts as much, it's more just the behaviours. And that is the fundamental core; it's about doing things differently. So behavioural couple therapy would usually be something people would have on a website, if that's what they're offering.   Lucy: Obviously it must be different for every couple, but roughly how long would a treatment take?  Dan: It would be similar to a lot of individual CBT. It can be for some really low level; we want to prepare things, we don't want to have the cracks form later, a little bit prevention. That can just be a few sessions; five, six or so of the actual treatment, once you get out of the assessment stage. That would be about three or four really, if they're just doing prevention stuff.   But typically a course of therapy would be about 10, 12, maybe upwards of about 15 sessions. Sometimes more, it could be upwards of 20, depending on how entrenched these old habits are.   Lucy: And is that something you do get; people coming early on in a relationship to try to head-off bad habits?  Dan: Absolutely. That's something that certain religious organisations have been doing for quite a while. The Catholic church has always expected couples to go through a marriage preparation course. And there are fewer people who are seeking that religious intervention now, so they come to us. We have the same principles, and a lot of the same material.  And so we see the divorce rate is 42%; that's a pretty staggering number when you think about all of the unhappy married couples, it's about a coin toss about whether or not any couple is going to make it and be happy. But there are things that we can do in order to make sure that we're in the right 50%.   Lucy: And what got you into doing this sort of therapy?  Dan: I've always been fascinated by relationships. I was first inspired by Albert Ellis, as a first year psych student, and I knew this was the area I was going to work in. But then as I was going through my studies, I just became really fascinated with relationships.   I'm one of the very fortunate ones, my parents are still together after 40 years – coming up on 50 years actually, very soon. And I just always appreciated their relationship, the way they interact with each other, the way they talk.   And in conversations I've had with clients over the years, I do recognise that very rarely is there the one person who's fully to blame. It's usually a system thing. And I think what the world needs more of is just slowing things down and trying to listen to understand, rather than listening to respond.   And so it's a very different type of work than if you're working with depression or anxiety, that's very much around distress and trying to reduce distress. There's distress in relationships, but it's the system that's the problem rather than there being an issue with mood or anxiety.   Lucy: Do you ever feel sort of caught in the middle as the therapist?  Dan: Sometimes. It's really odd when a couple has been particularly conflictual, and been fighting a fair amount, and they want to feel heard. And they're already under the impression that they're the reasonable one, and if you can just fix my partner then we'll be okay. Very rarely is that ever the case. But you do get dragged into that a little bit.   That's rare. Most couples, they come to see a couples therapist because they recognise that there's a problem with how they're interacting rather than, "Just try and fix my partner." But it does happen.   Lucy: It sounds like hard work, actually.   Dan: It's very much a game of mindfulness, I think, for a couples therapist. You always have to be on the ball and always in the moment. Especially with those couples who can trigger each other really quickly, and get caught in that vicious cycle of arguing, and they think they're the right one and their partner's the wrong one. And just blinking; you think you're having a productive conversation and it can just set off.   So we have to be far more active than we would do when treating individual clients, to make sure we're interrupting that pattern, because it's happening live. If I'm treating an individual, I might generate a panic attack, but one doesn't generally spontaneously happen in a session, but in couples therapy, the fights do.   Lucy: Do you think it has made you more able to listen in that kind of slowed down way that you talked about?  Dan: Well, there are skills there to try and understand some of the fundamental premise that someone might be saying. And I think I recognise that just about every topic under the sun tends to be a lot more complicated than what some people tend to think.   There are very few simple answers in this world, and I think that idea of being that mediator, from seeing a couple to diplomacy between nations, are all just aspects of the same spectrum. It's just people feeling unheard and misunderstood, and sometimes closing their ears to the other side.   Lucy: Couples therapy is in the NICE guidelines, which draw on different research studies to understand what the most effective therapies are for different sorts of problems. I asked Dan what the evidence base for this type of therapy is.   Dan: It's a bit of a tricky question to answer, for a couple of reasons. The short answer is, pretty good; not absolutely fantastic, there's no guarantee I think for any couple. But it is better than nothing, and it is one of those very few evidence-based treatments that we have. There is a lot of couple work out there that doesn't have the evidence base, that behavioural couples therapy would do.   And a lot of the time it really does depend on the couple. Again, one of the shocking statistics is that the average couple could very well wait around six years of having problems before they seek help. And as a result of that, it does linger and become and become a bit more complicated.   And it's the same thing with the relationship, and so those who are able to see the cracks beginning to form, they tend to fare a little bit better than the couple who have canyons that have come into their ways of communicating. But I think with an open mind, with an understanding, and with a willingness to be able to hear – which is usually the biggest obstacle – then a couple can do well with some good tools and the right direction.   Lucy: One really tricky thing about evaluating the effectiveness of cognitive behavioural couples therapy is that unlike individual CBT, the aim isn't always to make the relationship better. Pre and post scores on a relationship satisfaction measure aren't always the best indicators.   Sometimes couples use therapy to determine whether ending the relationship is the best option for them, which could still be a good outcome even if the scores don't improve.   I asked Richard and Liz what else had stayed with them since doing the therapy.   Richard: For me I suppose it's more the approach. So if people were interested in doing it, then the environment that you're going into is one of the safest that you'll have to talk about the really difficult stuff. So there's no reason not to be as open as you can. And don't hold back, because there's no point, you won't benefit from it. So I would just thoroughly recommend being as open and honest as you can, and you really will reap the benefits from it.   I think it's almost like that green light to be able to say maybe the things that you haven't said before, or the things that you've been scared of saying. Because it might be that those things in the past have been a catalyst for an argument or some difficulties. Whereas in this space you've got someone who, if it does go that way, can bring it back, and also is there to help balance the conversations.   And so once you've done it once in that environment, and realised the benefits, then just keep doing it, because it's very, very powerful.   Lucy: It sounds helpful for stepping out of patterns that we can all get into.   Liz: Yeah. And I think also it was having someone there who is trained, and they have this incredible toolbox of things that they can give to you.   And the range of things that we spoke about, I think there were some things that I think we didn't realise we would speak about, which actually in hindsight, of course they were going to come up. And we dealt with things across the spectrum of a relationship, didn't we?  Richard: Yeah, we did. Yeah.   Liz: And we were given tools not only to help us communicate there, at the time, but then also afterwards. And that has been really helpful for us as well. So we haven't just been left to get on with it, and hope that everything works out okay.   I think we've tried sometimes in the past to deal with things by Googling them and looking for articles. And you end up with all of these things that are suggestions as to how you can improve your relationship. But actually having a professional who takes the time to sit down to work out what's best for the two of you is invaluable.   Richard: I think it was almost like – and not to sound too cheesy – but we went there wanting to know how to dance, like how to do a Viennese waltz, and Dan was able to pull us back and say well, let's just make sure you can hold hands properly, first.   Liz: Yes. Yeah, exactly that. I still want to learn to Viennese waltz but…   Richard: Yeah.   Lucy: What was the hardest thing, do you think, about it?  Liz: There were elements where we were talking about physical things in our relationship, that you have the schoolgirl kind of – you get embarrassed talking about things like that.   But much like Rich said earlier, when he said just be honest about something, and when it doesn't go wrong you'll realise it's a safe place to keep being honest. And I think that's the thing. As soon as you start talking about something, and you realise the world hasn't stopped turning, it's then like that switch – again, as Rich said – that switch goes on and you actually realise this is okay, and this is normal.   Richard: Yeah.   Lucy: And what do you think the best thing has been to come out of it?  Richard: It's hard to answer that, because I just think it's the way we are. So the developments in our relationship, the way we communicate. The closeness, like Liz says, physically and mentally, is better than it has been, I think. So okay those butterflies may have gone, but like Liz says, it has been replaced by just a stronger bond.  Liz: A different type of butterflies.   Richard: A different type of butterflies.   Liz: Yeah, maybe.   Richard: Do you know what I think is important; it encourages you to want to continue to do that. So you don't go there have a session or a number of sessions, and once you're done, that's it, you're fixed. It doesn't work like that. But it encourages you to develop yourselves and keep going with, like Liz says, with the tools you've been given.   Lucy: But brave to be able to do that as well, because it's challenging too.   Liz: Yeah, absolutely. Because the path most trodden is the one you go back to, isn't it? But yeah, just recognising I think those old behaviours is a victory in itself.   Lucy: I asked Liz, Richard and Dan for their final thoughts for couples who are thinking about having this type of therapy.   Liz: If anyone's even thinking about it, take the leap, because the one thing you'll wish is that you'd done it sooner. And the good thing is if you're going to invest one day in it, you might as well invest sooner rather than later, because then you'll have longer with the benefits of it. And it's worth it.   Dan: I'd definitely encourage it. And there is an element of don't wait; don't wait until it's too late. There are those couples that I have seen where, in the session, five sessions in, one partner might say to another, "Look, had you offered to do this five months ago I would have been there, but I've lost it, and the fire's out now." And so this is a time limited situation sometimes. People do end up getting to a point where they've passed the point of no return and they just shut down.   So a relationship, it's a little bit like a fire. The flames tend to go out pretty quickly – the passion, the heat – and we have that in the first six months to two years, and then that starts to go. And that's the case for any relationship. But you would expect the embers to be glowing, you would expect some sort of heat to still be generated from what's left, from those coals.   But there is a time when that starts to extinguish. Sometimes it's as dramatic as a bucket of water being poured over it, sometimes it's just time, and it burns itself out. And so the sooner tends to be the better. And that would be the main advice.   Lucy: And just one last question, how do you know when to stop?  Dan: (Laughs) That's a great question. As I say, I think my job is to make myself obsolete as quickly as possible.   And in your typical therapy, there's a difference between treating relationship distress and treating substance misuse. With substance misuse there's very manualised – today is session two, therefore we're going to talk about this; this is session five, so therefore we're going to talk about… They're very rigid and strict in what they do, and it's a very dedicated programme.   For relationship distress, generally for the population where substances aren't involved, it's a little bit more open, shall we say. We deal with what's going on at the time. And I have a loose structure in my head, where I want to deal with things like caring, communication, and conflict management. Those are the three things that I want to make sure the couple has. So they have a lot of positive going in, they have little negative coming out, and they're able to use the tools to understand each other better. When they can do those three things then we start to wrap up.   And it would be very similar to how do you know you're done with depression. People feel a little bit more confident moving forward and don't really need you as much; we can phase things out a bit. They're managing their own conflicts.   Most problems won't go away; about two thirds of all conflict are what they refer to as unsolvable problems. When you pick a partner you pick a set of problems – that's kind of how relationships work. But they can manage them better; they're not sparking each other off. They're not becoming emotive conversations, they're becoming much more productive conversations around understanding and meaning. And then I'm not really required any more.   Lucy: Thank you to all of my guests, Richard, Liz and Dan. If you'd like more information on CBT for couples, have a look at the show notes.   For more on CBT in general and for our register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com. And have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT, and the problems it can help with like clinical perfectionism and body dysmorphic disorder.   That's all for now. Thanks for listening and take good care.     END OF AUDIO               

What is digital CBT? How does therapy work over the internet? Can it ever be as good as face-to-face? Dr Lucy Maddox hears from Dr Graham Thew and Fiona McLauchlan-Hyde about an internet-based CBT programme for PTSD. Fiona shares her experience of how this therapist-supported programme helped her through traumatic grief, and also has some helpful advice for people trying to comfort those who are bereaved.    Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP BABCP website is at www.babcp.com CBT Register of accredited CBT therapists is at https://www.cbtregisteruk.com BPS Top tips for psychological sessions delivered by video call for adult patients https://www.bps.org.uk/sites/www.bps.org.uk/files/Policy/Policy%20-%20Files/Top%20tips%20for%20psychological%20sessions%20by%20video%20%28adult%20patients%29.pdf Resource from OCD-UK on getting the most out of online CBT https://www.babcp.com/files/Therapists/Oxford-OCD-Making-the-Most-Out-of-Remote-Therapy-for-Patients-by-OCDUK.pdf Graham's recent paper in the Cognitive Behavioural Therapist can be found on the podcast journal article page https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-cognitive-behaviour-therapist/information/let-s-talk-about-cbt-podcast Information from Cruse about traumatic grief https://www.cruse.org.uk/get-help/traumatic-bereavement/traumatic-loss The Good Grief Trust https://www.thegoodgrieftrust.org Image is by Cassie Boca on Unsplash Transcript   Lucy: Before we get started, I want to remind you about the survey which I released at the beginning of August. I really would like to know more about who is listening to these podcasts and what you would like. The link to the survey is in the show notes and it takes about five minutes to complete. If you have time to fill it in I would be really grateful.   Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not, and how it can be useful.   Today I am exploring digital CBT. I speak to a therapist who has been researching internet based CBT programmes that are supported by a therapist, and I speak to someone who has experienced this first hand.   The particular programme that we talk about is for PTSD, which we've heard about before in a previous episode. In this case PTSD was related to an experience of traumatic grief.   Fiona: I think I started last September and I finished just before lockdown, actually.   Lucy: Gosh, so in a way good timing.   Fiona: Yeah, it was great timing to finish just before lockdown. It put me in a good place I think, to be able to deal with what was going on, rather than if it had been six months earlier it would have been a very different experience I think.   Lucy: It took Fiona, who is based in Oxfordshire, a long time to find this type of therapy.   Fiona: It all started six and a half years ago, when my husband died of cancer.   Lucy: I'm so sorry.   Fiona: He was diagnosed in the June, and he died in the December, and it was really horrific. He was 49, I was 42 at the time. And so it was heartbreaking and I couldn't cope. I couldn't cope afterwards. We had a little girl, she was seven when he died. And my world was turned upside down.   And I got help at first. But then, as with all things, life goes on around you and everyone thinks you're fine. And I was still putting my lipstick on, so therefore everyone thought I was okay. And I felt I was getting worse and worse, and no one would believe me.   And it wasn't until I threw all of my toys out of the pram; after having therapy through my local GP – so this was last year, last summer – sitting in my car afterwards for about an hour just sobbing, because no one believed me that I was feeling as bad as I was.   And I asked to be put in touch with TalkingSpace. And they put me forward for a trial with Oxfordshire Mental Health, and it changed my life. It absolutely changed my life. Because I was drowning and no one believed me, it was awful.   Lucy: It sounds like such a dark time.   Fiona: It was a really dark time. And everyone just kept saying come on, you know, it's been so many years. And I was functioning, but I think it was last year… So I suffered from panic attacks; I suffered from panic attacks from before my husband died, and they got worse. They'd gone away for years and then they came back when he was diagnosed.   And last summer, around this time last year, I had such a severe panic attack, I was driving my daughter and she had to call an ambulance. And that was when I decided that come what may I needed help.   But it was still quite some time after that. I still had to go through about six weeks of people going, "Come on, you're fine. Take a pill." And I didn't want to take a pill. So yeah, I was lucky, eventually.   Lucy: It sounds like you had to be really tenacious to get access to the therapy?  Fiona: It was a real, real battle. And as much as I really liked my GP, and my GP was the person who was there when my husband was dying. So he knew what happened and how horrific it was. But in the end his last thing was, "No more therapy. You're lonely. You need to go out and find yourself another man." And that was when it just – that was when I sat in my car for an hour and a half and cried.   Because it wasn't that, I knew it wasn't that. I knew there was something really wrong, and that I really, really needed help. And TalkingSpace came in, and I had a huge amount of telephone conversations and meetings in person, just for them to try and work out which way to send me.   Lucy: Fiona was diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder. Fiona's experience of losing her husband was deeply traumatic; not only the death but the lead up to it.  Fiona: I mean obviously it didn't just happen to me; a lot of us were affected by it. But it was a particularly brutal and nasty way to die.   And you see the other thing is I did most of the nursing when my husband was sick. I don't know how it happened like that, but it just did. So all of a sudden I became a nurse, which is not on my CV.   Lucy: Super, super hard. Yeah.   Fiona: And for us, Paul's death was so horrific. He had a lot of failed operations, there was a lot of emergency surgery, there was an awful lot of blood everywhere. There were ambulances called in the middle of the night. He didn't just have cancer and pass away, he suffered every day for those however many months it was.   And all of those things that we did automatically; like he had a feeding tube, because he had oesophageal cancer. So with me setting up the feeding tube every night, and flushing all of the feeding tubes out in the morning. And all of those things that you do automatically, because you're trying to keep your loved one alive, they hit you later.   So his death, apart from – it sounds terrible to say this – apart from his death being the trauma, his illness was a trauma too. Because I did everything I could, but I couldn't make him better. And this is part of my therapy, just my guilt at not being able to save him.   Lucy: The therapy that Fiona was referred to was a trial based at the Oxford Centre for Anxiety, Disorders and Trauma.   Graham: My name is Graham Thew. I am a clinical psychologist. And I do a job that's split between research and clinical work.   So my research work I do at the University of Oxford, at the Oxford Centre for Anxiety, Disorders and Trauma. And my clinical work I do at two different services that are part of the IAPT programme, the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies programme. So that's the Healthy Minds service in Buckinghamshire and the TalkingSpace Plus service in Oxfordshire. And both my research work and my clinical work all focus on digital treatment and digital therapies.   Lucy: Graham wasn't Fiona's therapist, but he's involved in the trial that she took part in. I asked him about what digital therapy is.   And when you say digital CBT, what do you mean?  Graham: Yeah, that's a great question, because I think terms like digital CBT can actually cover a range of different things.   So as we've just mentioned, we might be referring to webcam sessions; so video conference sessions that would perhaps cover the same content as a face-to-face therapy session. So you would still be able to see your therapist on webcam, and you both agree to meet at a specific time.   But digital CBT and other online treatments can be broader and look a little bit different to that as well. So for example there are some forms of CBT that still take place online with a therapist at a specific time, but instead of seeing them and talking to them via webcam, you'd actually be typing; you and the therapist would be typing to each other live, in real time.   Lucy: Like a kind of Messenger chat?  Graham: Exactly, like a sort of instant messaging chat.   And then another different category altogether is more of a sort of internet-based CBT programme. So that would be where there's a website or a programme that has a lot of the therapy content written, perhaps in the form of little treatment modules. So written texts, videos, that sort of thing. And you would therefore work through those in your own time, and perhaps have some support from the therapist every so often; maybe in the form of messaging or a phone call or something.   So it can be a bit confusing because terms like digital CBT can mean different things.   Lucy: Is your research looking at all of those types of digital CBT?  Graham: The work that I've done has mostly focused on the last category that I talked about; the forms where treatment is partly written down and put into an internet programme in a series of modules, but that there's support from a therapist. In the programmes that I've worked with most closely, the therapist would communicate with you by telephone, by messaging, and also occasionally via webcam as well.   Lucy: Fiona met her therapist at the start of treatment, but from then on she worked through online modules and she also had regular contact with weekly phone calls and messaging in between sessions.   Fiona: There were phone calls with the therapist, they were quite lengthy, but all of the way through it she would send me text messages, saying, "Don't forget to take a tea break." There was a lot of talk about tea. (Laughs) Or, "It's a beautiful sunny day Fiona, can you get outside for a bit?" Just little nudges, little reminders to take time.   I found it much easier to have a telephone call with her. I think it did help that I'd met her once, so I knew what she looked like. But there was a complete and utter trust and we got on, and I really, really liked her. And I liked the fact that she understood me straightaway. And it didn't bother me that it wasn't face-to-face.  And there was something that was really quite comforting about still being in my own home, and with my own surroundings, and with things that comforted me. And if I'd finished the modules, or I'd finished a conversation, and I was feeling low, then I was instantly able to do something.   I mean we had this one thing where I had this one particular piece of music that we actually played at my husband's funeral, but it's a northern soul track. And if I was feeling really low, I was told to put that on really loudly, which I did. I probably annoyed the neighbours, but anyway, it worked.   It just felt like someone had your back; that someone was just there who understood and was helping you along. It was sort of invisible support and it was fantastic.  Lucy: The content of the modules that Fiona was working through were developed to be as close to the content of the face-to-face therapy as possible. Graham explained.   Graham:   I'm lucky to work with some very clever and creative people, who have been able to adapt certain treatment elements that we would do face-to-face, to think about how they could work online.   So the PTSD programme, again is really trying to faithfully replicate the same elements that would be done in face-to-face CBT treatment for PTSD. So the modules focus on a range of different topics. I guess beginning with some sort of information and explanation about what PTSD is, and why some of the difficulties that people might be experiencing are understandable, given what has happened.   And then the modules go on to help people start to think about the idea of reclaiming their life; trying to get back elements of their life that might have got a bit stuck, or have dropped off in terms of what they've been doing since the trauma.  And then as people progress through therapy, they would go on to actually working on the memory of the trauma itself. The idea being really trying to process what's happened, so that it can be put away in the past where it belongs, so that it doesn't keep popping back up and causing those difficult re-experiencing type difficulties.   Lucy: I asked Fiona what sorts of things she remembers from the modules.   Fiona: There was a lot about working on your triggers, which was great for me, although it was really hard to work out what the triggers were. So for instance one of my triggers was dark, rainy nights, because I associated that with driving back from the hospital. And wet leaves sent me into a… But then you don't think, "How can wet leaves possibly make me feel this terrible?" But it's true, it did.   And there are certain smells; the smell of copper coins reminded me of the smell of blood. Because my husband died of oesophageal cancer there was an awful lot of vomiting of blood. So things like that, that are in the back of your mind; you work on them to bring them forward and deal with them. It's hard. It's really hard. But when things start to make sense, you start to feel better. Or that's how it worked for me anyway.   Lucy: You said about being able to identify the triggers. What did you then do with that knowledge?  Fiona: If I just take you to an example of what happened for me, is that I was driving home from work; I picked my car up and I was doing my journey home, from getting off the bus from work. And it was a dark, rainy, winter's night, and I started to feel like I was going to have a panic attack. And I was on the dual carriageway, and there was not a lot I could do. And that's when we worked out that dark, wet, November nights, were a real trigger for me.   So what my therapist did was uploaded an image of a dark, wet street with wet leaves everywhere. And I then had to go and look at the image, concentrate on the image, until I could cope with it.   And the first time I looked at it, I fell apart. It was awful, it was the most awful feeling.   And then I'd keep going back to it. It was about taking yourself… You are no longer in that situation which I was in six and a half years ago. My daughter's at home, I'm doing this tomorrow, Paul's no longer suffering. So yeah, it was about the here and now, and not being in the past anymore. Not believing it was those same nights when my husband was dying.   Lucy: So some things that you could say to yourself that would remind you that you were safe now.   Fiona: Yes. A lot about being safe, and a lot of thinking that my husband was no longer suffering. That I was safe, my daughter was safe, he wasn't in pain.   Lucy: That sounds really important, yeah.   Fiona: I found it worked incredibly well for me, because I could keep going back to it. Or if I wanted time to think about something, I could stop, go and make a cup of tea, and let things in gradually, to try and work out why I was feeling the way I was.   So it was like 24/7 therapy, seven days a week. The modules were released for you, so you could never race ahead. My therapist released a module when she thought I was ready for that module.   There was a lot of work before we worked on the death of a loved one, which I was dreading. But it just meant that if it was 2:00 on a Sunday afternoon and I was feeling really, really low, I could go back in and go through something that I thought might help.   Lucy: And the module that you were dreading, the death of a loved one, what was that like when you got to it?   Fiona: It wasn't as tough as I was expecting, but that's kind of always the way, isn't it? The death of a loved one all made sense. And I think it was the right time that I did it, because I'd already started to feel better. So that's what was brilliant about it; it was all done at exactly the right time.   So there weren't any of them that weren't tough. I mean the toughest one of all was when I had to write my story. So you physically write your story, about what happened to you. And I had no trouble remembering the events and in which order they happened, but when you actually see it written in front of you, and you write it yourself; for me that was the breaking point, that was when things started to turn around. Because that's when I realised that I had been through something utterly horrific. And I was allowed to feel the way that I was, because anybody would do in that situation.   So it's almost like when I read my story, as hideous as it was, and as upsetting as it was, and I cried a lot when I wrote it. That was the point where I let myself off the hook a bit, for want of a better expression.   Lucy: Yeah, so you could kind of witness what had happened to you almost.   Fiona: Yes. Yeah, it's exactly that.   Lucy: The programme for PTSD that Fiona did, and another similar one for social anxiety, have shown promising results. I asked Graham to explain the evidence base for this sort of therapy.   Graham: Yeah, we have done a few studies so far, starting with some initial pilot studies, to test the programmes. And also some randomised control trials; so comparing them to other forms of treatment. And what's been really, really pleasing to see so far, is that the results that we've been getting are really encouraging. Really showing that people can make great improvements using this format of treatment, and actually can really overcome their difficulties.   So we're very excited about the potential for our programmes, and for this format of treatment in general. Because I think it really can change people's lives and make a real difference, in the same way that face-to-face therapies can.   One other thing to add perhaps is that another possible advantage of programmes that have some of the treatment content written down, is that they can be translated into other languages and shared around the world a little bit more easily.   So some of my work has been working with some teams in other countries to try and see how these treatments perform in a different culture to where they were originally developed. And I think the format there can be quite helpful in terms of translating and sending it to other countries and cultures who would like to use it, and feel that it could be helpful for them.  Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. And even different people in this country, who don't have English as a first language. That sounds really helpful, yeah.   Graham: Yeah, absolutely.   Lucy: In general, although some people sometimes worry about whether digital CBT will be as good as face-to-face, Graham thinks that the evidence is promising overall.   Graham: So it's quite an interesting one. I think there's a sense amongst many people, both members of the public, and therapists and researchers, that digital CBT and online treatments are quite a new development. But actually when you look at the literature, it's really quite extensive; these kinds of things have been being researched for over 20 years. There's now over 300 randomised control studies looking at the effectiveness of different internet-based programmes.   So there's actually a lot more evidence out there than people realise. There are a few things I guess that we can conclude from the evidence so far. Obviously it's a very rapidly growing area, and lots of people are doing more studies all of the time. But generally it seems that online treatments, when they're compared – they're most usually compared to people on a waiting list, or a group that aren't receiving any treatment at the moment. And so generally those studies will find that actually an online treatment is much better in terms of your clinical outcomes, compared to waiting or doing nothing.   Treatments that have support from a therapist generally do a little bit better than ones that are unguided; that don't have that therapist support.   Studies have generally done follow-up, usually up to one year, or the longest I think I've seen is up to five years after treatment. Those studies all generally seem to find that the gains that people have made during the treatment have been maintained over that time. So that's really encouraging.   Lucy: One limit to the evidence base is that there are not as many studies comparing digital to face-to-face treatment.   Graham: Generally what those studies have found is where the digital treatments have support from a therapist and have been compared to a face-to-face treatment, the outcomes are similar. It's really exciting I think to know that actually the outcomes might be similar; it could be just as helpful for you doing your treatment online as it is face-to-face.  There is need for more studies doing that direct comparison, because they're not quite as common as other forms of research in this area. Some of those review studies have suggested that maybe there are some studies within that that perhaps aren't the highest quality at the moment. So I think there is need to do more work on that.   Lucy: And is digital CBT better for any particular people, or any particular problems?  Graham: I don't think we have the evidence yet to know that. But I think there are a number of potential advantages that people might experience doing their treatment digitally. I tend to see it as being that we're not necessarily looking for digital treatments to be replacing face-to-face work. It might be a really helpful option for people.   They are quite flexible for people, so people can do them maybe in the evenings, at weekends maybe, if they're working, or they can fit it around other commitments that they have. I guess it avoids the cost and the time that they might need to take off work or travelling to an appointment.   And as I mentioned before, the idea of going at your own pace and maybe going back and re-reading, or re-looking at something from earlier in treatment, that you wanted to kind of refresh on.   Lucy: Fiona sometimes used her commute on a coach to London to work through the modules.   Fiona: It helped me doing that, because if I started to feel panicky or anxious, I'd then concentrate on my surroundings.   Lucy: And how have things changed since having had the therapy? Apart from there being a global pandemic and everyone going into lockdown.   Fiona: Well, for a start I wouldn't have been able to deal with the global pandemic and going into lockdown, I don't think. My mother did mention that to me the other day, how proud she was of me, because I was dealing with it. So that was a good thing.   I'm calmer. I'm not going to say that my panics have… I haven't had a panic attack since. I've nearly had them, but I can get out of them easily – well, easier. I'm calmer, I'm more relaxed. I've got a sense of wellbeing, apart from the global pandemic. I'm just happier.   I'm not saying it's all completely gone away, because I miss my husband, but it's not crushing anymore. And I can think of him and smile, whereas before all I saw was the illness and the pain. And it still flashes into my head, but it was flashing into my head all the time before, and it's not doing that now. And I think I'm better equipped to deal with things now than I was before.   Lucy: That sounds really different, yeah.   Fiona and Graham had some advice to share for anyone thinking about having digital CBT.   Graham: I definitely recommend asking what sort of studies or research had been done on that particular internet programme. Because as we've said they do vary a lot, and so I guess it would be good to know that what's being considered has been tested and shown to be helpful for people.   Then I guess the other questions; one would be what format is the treatment? Because I think even though it might be called digital CBT or something, that might still vary a lot. So is it going to be done over webcam sessions, or typing, or a written programme online?  And then I guess a last question to think about, or to recommend people ask, would be about what support there is from the therapist. So particularly what format that support would come in and how often they would get to speak or interact with their therapist in some way. Is it messaging once a week, or is it phone calls? Because I think it's important to get a sense of that.   Lucy: Graham has also been part of writing some guidelines, to help people know what to ask when they're offered digital provision of therapies. I've linked to this document in the show notes.   Graham: So I guess at the moment, in the context of the coronavirus, it might be the case that some people are a bit worried about seeking help, because of concerns about having to go and see someone, or meet them face-to-face. But I would encourage people not to put off trying to make contact and reach out to people.   Most services at the moment are offering a lot of digital and telephone options, so it really wouldn't necessarily be the case of having to go and see someone in person.   And obviously this is a tough time for all of us, placing many strains on our mental health. So I would encourage people to reach out if they're struggling and need some extra support.   Lucy: Graham also had a thought for people who might worry about the relationship that can be built with digital CBT and whether it can be as good.   Graham: Actually there have already now been a few studies looking at the idea of a therapeutic relationship online. What those studies have found is that actually the people who have been going through an online, digital treatment, do report a similar level of connection to their therapist as people who are doing their treatment face-to-face.   One idea I have about that, and that might be interesting to explore a little bit more in some studies, is I guess in online treatments you have the ability to send your therapist a message at any time. And obviously it's not possible for them to get back to you instantly all of the time. But I think for many people that can give quite a powerful sense of their therapist being there for them. That might go some way to really strengthening that connection.   Which perhaps is slightly different in face-to-face. Where you would perhaps have an hour together with your therapist, and then it wouldn't be common that you would be speaking to them or contacting them too much until your next session.   Lucy: It's really nice to hear about the difference between the two types of therapy. It's making me think it would be nice if people had the choice sometimes, between the different types, because they do feel maybe slightly different.   Graham: Yeah, definitely. I think it would be nice to move towards a place where we have these options easily available and that then people could be able to make a choice about what they think is going to work best for them.   I don't think we're quite there yet, because a lot of these programmes are still in the earlier stages of development. There is obviously also quite a lot of work to train therapists in how to use them and to actually get them embedded within clinical services. But certainly that work is happening, so hopefully we are moving in that direction.   Fiona: I would say do it. Even if you've got reservations, absolutely do it. You've still got someone there who's got your back and wants to help you get better. So I certainly wouldn't shy away from it just because it's a different format. It didn't seem any different to me, and it really did change my life.   But the fact that it was always there if I needed it was invaluable, absolutely invaluable. Because to be able to message your therapist at – it didn't matter what time. If I was awake at 1:00 in the morning, I mean she wasn't going to answer, but it didn't matter. I could still send that message because the next day she'd respond. And I'd got it out of my head and I wasn't dwelling on it, because I'd sent that question out there.  So just try. Even if it takes you out of your comfort zone, even more than you're already out of, because you're having therapy. I feel really lucky that I got that type of therapy, I really do.   Lucy: Do you have any advice for people who maybe are trying to comfort loved ones who are grieving? Do you have any advice for them?  Fiona: I think the awful thing about grief, everyone thinks – unless it's happened to them – the number of people who said to me, "Come on, pull yourself together." I mean it was absolutely astounding. A lot of people who didn't, but also their lives go on. And so at the beginning when someone dies you have an awful lot of support, and then it disappears.   Don't tell them to get over it, (laughs) don't tell them to pull themselves together. I think the thing is to listen; to listen and to be sympathetic. Just to not try and make it right. I think that's what I found, is a lot of people just didn't want me to be in pain anymore. So they tried to jolly me up or push it away.   And I think it's really hard if you haven't been through it to be really, truly, truly sympathetic. But I think the best thing to do is listen and comfort, and not try to make it better. Because the only thing that's going to make it better is for your loved one not to be dead, and that can't happen. So you just need gentle support, I would say.   What's so great about the therapy is I can say it was terrible, it was awful. But then in just a matter of fact way. My heart doesn't hurt any more. I know that sounds like a real Disney thing to say, but it's true. And it took ages to get there, to get the help, but I got it. And I'm just really grateful I got it. Yeah, I feel really lucky about that. Thank goodness. (Laughs)  Lucy: That's all from me. Massive thanks to both Graham and Fiona for sharing their experience and knowledge.   Both digital therapy and traumatic grief are very relevant at the moment, as the effects of the pandemic continue to impact. And I've put information in the show notes if you'd like to know any more about either of those things.   Take good care and please do fill out that survey if you get a moment, I'd love to hear from you.     END OF AUDIO   

Let's Talk About CBT Survey Have you got 5 minutes to complete a quick survey about your experience of listening? It would really help us to know who is listening and what you would like from the podcast. Thank you! https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/podcastLTACBT Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP   Photo by Emily Morter on Unsplash

  What does existing research tell us about the possible impact of the pandemic on children and young people's mental health? Dr Lucy Maddox speaks with Dr Maria Loades about Maria and colleagues' recent rapid review of the literature on isolation and mental health, and what CBT principles suggest can be helpful to head off problems, in particular with loneliness during the pandemic.  Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Maria recommended lots of helpful resources on loneliness and social isolation which we've listed here: Books Together: Loneliness, Health And What Happens when we find Connection – Vivek Murthy https://www.amazon.co.uk/Together-Loneliness-Health-Happens-Connection/dp/1788162773 Overcoming social anxiety and shyness https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Social-Anxiety-Shyness-Gillian/dp/1849010005 Overcoming your children's social anxiety and shyness https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1845290879/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_6p13EbZ0ER2XD Websites Mind - https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/tips-for-everyday-living/loneliness/about-loneliness/ How to cope with loneliness during coronavirus – https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-cope-with-loneliness-during-coronavirus-4799661 TEDx talk by Will Wright 'Loneliness is literally killing us' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruh6rN5UrME&feature=youtu.be Loneliness and isolation in teenagers – a parent's guide https://www.bupa.co.uk/newsroom/ourviews/2019/05/teenager-loneliness As always if you want more information on BABCP check out www.babcp.com If you want to find a CBT accredited therapist check the register of BABCP accredited therapists https://www.cbtregisteruk.com/ Articles The rapid review we talked about is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7267797/ Podcast That podcast episode with Shirley Reynolds on teenagers doing more of what matters to them is here: https://letstalkaboutcbt.libsyn.com/helping-teenagers-do-more-of-what-matters-to-them   Transcript Lucy: Hi and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. In this episode brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, we think about the possible effects of quarantine on children and young people's mental health. I'll let my guest for today introduce herself.   Maria: My name is Dr Maria Loades and I'm a clinical psychologist and I work at the University of Bath as a lecturer on the doctorate and clinical psychology programme.   Lucy: Maria and her colleagues have been especially interested in the effects of the pandemic on children and young people. She co-authored a rapid review of evidence to try to understand what this effect is likely to be.   Maria: What we wanted to do was to look at two things. One is the studies that have been done that have looked at social isolation in a pandemic context in children and young people and how that's impacted on their mental health. Secondly, we were also interested in thinking, okay, if these measures mean that young people experience this increase in loneliness, what do we know about how loneliness might be related to mental health for children and young people.   Lucy: So obviously there's not loads of pandemics to study, but you're trying to work out from what's been done before, how does loneliness impact on mental health problems for children and young people? You turned the review around really quickly didn't you, because normally it takes months to do something like this.   Maria: Yes, we really felt like it was particularly important to pull this together as quickly as we could to inform policy and practice going forward.   Lucy: And what did you find?   Maria: As we expected, there isn't much known about the impact of pandemics specifically. There was just one study that looked at mental health in children and young people in a pandemic context and it did find that there was significantly increased rates of mental health problems for those who had experienced disease containment measures like quarantine or social isolation. And the study focused on trauma symptoms and they found really much higher rates of trauma symptoms amongst those young people who had experienced those disease containment measures. But that is only one study.   More broadly though, there were over 60 studies that looked at loneliness and mental health. And we found that there is good evidence that loneliness increases the chances of developing mental health problems, both anxiety and depression, up to nine years later.   So there's not only a loneliness and depression and anxiety linked when we measured them at the same point in time, but there's good evidence that being lonely now will mean an increase in risk of mental health problems at a later date.   Lucy: Maria thought one study was particularly interesting. It looked at duration of loneliness compared to intensity of loneliness.   Maria: Now what we mean by that is how long the loneliness is going on for, as compared to how strong the loneliness is. And what this study found, and it was a big study, is that actually the longer we're lonely for, the more closely linked that is with mental health problems than how strong the loneliness is.   Lucy: What are some things that might be helpful to head off these problems?  Maria: We know that loneliness is that feeling we get when our social connections are not what we would want them to be. In the current context, of course, socially connecting in the normal ways, like at school or at college, for young people, is curtailed. But we can still connect in other ways.   Lucy: Maria emphasised how important connecting for play dates over video calls can be, as well as meeting up for play now lockdown is easing, and using more old school ways of communicating as well, like sending friends cards or letters.   Maria: The other thing we can do is more broadly to think about how we promote activities amongst young people that support wellbeing in every which way we can. As well as making sure we're providing a listening ear for young people and being open to hearing what they might be worried about or what they might be feeling sad about and problem solving that where we can. Actually giving them permission, this is a really unusual circumstance and it's okay and it's normal for it not to feel very good.   Lucy: Some things that we know promote wellbeing include regular exercise, good quality sleep, healthy eating and time spent on activities that young people enjoy and feel proud of.   Maria: As one goes for a walk you see rainbows in the windows and my little one looks and points and knows that those rainbows mean that there are other children out there. And I think that's incredibly helpful in terms of feeling a sense of community, connectedness, which also helps to overcome that loneliness.   Lucy: So although there may be an increased risk of mental health problems as a result of the pandemic, there's also lots and lots that we can do that would be protective.   Maria: Definitely. I think it's really important too that we make a distinction between young people who might be feeling lonely now and during this context, but who were pretty well socially connected beforehand. And of course, other young people who might have been lonely beforehand and this has maybe made things worse, or that their loneliness is ongoing at this stage.   For those young people who have maybe been feeling lonely for a much longer time, we might need to do something more individualised and more specific in terms of helping them to think about how they can make social connections going forward, as we resume life to some degree.   Lucy: I asked Maria whether she thought that as we are able to see people more, there might also be some anxiety around socialising.   Maria: You know, the reality is, we haven't been practicing socialising nearly as much as we'd normally do. So we might well feel rusty and we might well even be worried about connecting socially with each other again. Add into that, of course we've had a lot of messages in recent weeks about the risk of interacting with each other because of the risk of infection. And so I think anxiety about getting physically close to each other and interacting with each other is going to be really natural in weeks going forward.   And I think again, the CBT principles can really help us to deal with those social anxieties too. So the first principle that I think is really important to remember is: The first step to tackling fear is facing it.   Lucy: CBT principles suggest breaking down a scary situation into steps and gradually building the confidence to face the fear by conquering one step at a time. So starting with a text message to a friend and working up to meeting face-to-face, for example.   Another tip to help with social anxiety is trying not to focus on how we're coming across to someone but to focus on what someone is saying rather than getting caught up in thoughts about what they think about us. Thinking about thoughts, just as thoughts rather than facts is one thing that can help with this too, both for children and adults.   Maria: There's certain developmental reasons why children and young people may be struggling particularly and those are about the key importance of play and of social interaction to development at those ages. But actually this is something that everybody is experiencing.   I do think the majority of children and young people, and adults more generally, will have a few wobbles, but will manage and will bounce back as we go forward. But for some, I think it will be a little more difficult and they'll need to maybe engage in a bit of self-help using some of these CBT principles or indeed actually to go on and get some more professional help.   Lucy: Maria's review has implications for school policy.  Maria: What we're really encouraging, both schools but also policymakers to support is that as schools return and resume their normal activities, that they focus on allowing children and young people to reconnect rather than emphasising catching up academically. We know, again, from lots of studies and reviews that have been done that having mental health problems gets in the way of academic attainment.   We've got a strong rationale really for arguing, okay, let's make sure now that we try and overcome loneliness rather than prioritising catching up with school work in the short-term because actually in the longer term that's going to be beneficial to school work as well as to wellbeing more generally.   Lucy: I was curious to know if Maria thought any children and young people might actually have benefitted from lockdown. I see children and young people in my clinical practice and I've seen a real mixed bag of responses.   Maria: I do think that there are some young people who have actually found lockdown to be a real relief, particularly young people who struggled more with school and who struggled more with social interactions. Again, they're young people who might struggle particularly with the return to school as things get restarted again.   Lucy: Another group Maria highlighted were children and young people with particular transition points at this time.   Maria: People who, for example, had exams cancelled. Whilst in the short-term that might be a real relief not to have to study and not to have to face GCSEs or A-Levels for instance, I think again, going forward, then there's worries for those young people about what did that mean for them and how do they pick up from where they left off.   Lucy: Super hard isn't it, because there's such a range of experiences that will be going on in people's homes as well. I suppose one thing that has been really on my mind is children and young people who are from backgrounds where they will be disadvantaged by being at home, or perhaps even in danger for one reason or another.   Maria: I think that's a real problem and I do a lot of work with colleagues in South Africa, for whom lots of what we've been talking about as helpful strategies just don't apply. Most children and young people don't have access to the internet and can't continue to keep in touch by virtual play dates, for instance. So what do you do for those kind of populations who are disadvantaged in terms of being able to remain in digital contact with one another. It's really tricky.   I think we should all be concerned about those young people for whom home isn't a safe place. And that's a small minority of children, but a really big concern.   Schools often have a function of being able to do that check-in and that noticing of when children aren't doing okay and to pick up on that and we haven't had the ability to do that. So I think the needs of those children are going to be really important to thoroughly meet as we resume education contact and so forth.   Lucy: Maria's overall message was one of realistic optimism.   Maria: I think parents are understandably fearful about what this is going to mean for the wellbeing of their children going forward and, what's that phrase? Realistic optimism. I do think the vast majority are going to bounce back and a few wobbles, a bit of encouragement, a bit of a push sometimes, but they'll manage it. And the few who get a little more stuck, we do have things that we can offer to help.   Lucy: That's all for now. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it useful. If you'd like to listen to more on children and young people, there's another episode with Shirley Reynolds, talking about how to help young people do more of what matters to them at this time. There's also loads in the back catalogue about different types of CBT and different problems it can help with. For example, compassion focused therapy or CBT for hoarding disorder.   As ever, if you have ideas for new topics, feel free to get in touch with me at [email protected]. Take care for now.     END OF AUDIO   

How does doing more of what matters help teenagers with low mood and depression? And what can we all learn from this, particularly at the moment? Prof Shirley Reynolds speaks to Dr Lucy Maddox. Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP If you want to know more the following resources might be helpful. Books Shirley has written two books about depression in teenagers, one for teens and one for parents: For parents: Teenage Depression:  CBT Guide for Parents https://www.amazon.co.uk/Teenage-Depression-CBT-Guide-Parents/dp/147211454X For adolescents: Am I Depressed and What Can I Do About It? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Am-Depressed-What-Can-About/dp/1472114531/ref=pd_lpo_14_t_0/260-4076808-4951665?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1472114531&pd_rd_r=bd1ea151-b4d3-40bc-99bc-583aa3824613&pd_rd_w=xtKq9&pd_rd_wg=CFBxI&pf_rd_p=7b8e3b03-1439-4489-abd4-4a138cf4eca6&pf_rd_r=MFANFKSAD9RE92R6XS65&psc=1&refRID=MFANFKSAD9RE92R6XS65 Websites BABCP website www.babcp.com Register of BABCP accredited therapists https://www.cbtregisteruk.com/ These resources about child and adolescent mental health might also be useful Young Minds https://youngminds.org.uk/ MindEd https://www.minded.org.uk/ Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health https://www.acamh.org/ Other resources Shirley is running a course with Future Learn from 1st week in June about adolescent depression – aimed to help parents and professionals understand and help young people who struggle with low mood: https://www.mooc-list.com/course/understanding-depression-and-low-mood-young-people-futurelearn Have you seen the BABCP animation about what CBT is? Only 1 minute long and available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRijYOJp5e0 Photo by Daria Tumanova on Unsplash Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Transcript  Lucy: Hi and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can be useful. Today I'm speaking to Professor Shirley Reynolds from the University of Reading about how doing more of what matters can help teenagers boost their mood, and how this might be particularly helpful for all of us to remember at the current time.   Shirley: The thing I'm really mostly interested in is understanding more about adolescent depression in order to help us really develop better treatments and better ways of preventing young people from developing depression. So that we can really try and divert them away from a path that can lead into a lifetime of problems with low mood.   Lucy: Fantastic. And at this time in particular when we're all shutting doors a bit because of the pandemic and teenagers are shutting doors as well, what can your research tell us that might be helpful at this time in particular do you think?  Shirley: I think there are some general points and some more specific points. I think the general point is that one of the things we know, not just from our own research but from many people's research is that when you're a teenager, most teenagers are going to be incredibly attached to and reliant on having relationships with their friends, their peers.   The family becomes a bit less important, it's not unimportant, but the importance of it becomes a little bit less and that's replaced by a really, really strong focus on needing to be part of a social group. Being accepted by other people, contributing to things with your friends, being part of something bigger than yourself.   And so what that tells us then is that a period like now when young people simply cannot have those relationships in the normal ways, that this is a potential point of really massive stress for them and distress for them. And we need to try and support them; to maintain any relationships they already have, in whatever way is possible.   And what most parents are currently struggling with, but I think getting a handle on, is that currently that is going to be on a computer.   It's not just young people, we all need these things. This is a lifelong thing for most people, but it's a particular importance at that critical development period when we're teenagers.   Lucy: So making sure that we're supporting the young people in our lives to maintain contact with their friends in whatever way is possible.   Shirley: In whatever way is possible, absolutely. And accepting and understanding that it's frustrating and difficult and anxiety provoking and that that's true for everybody, parents, children, and everybody else.   There's a degree to which we have to kind of let our normal expectations just be shifted around a bit and learn to live with that and be okay with that.   Lucy: Actually, just you talking about teenagers in particular made me think about that tension that can happen sometimes between teenagers really wanting to be independent and maybe family really wanting to comfort teenagers during this time. And sometimes that can be a really tricky balance to walk, can't it, if you're a parent who wants to offer comfort and your teenager is saying, "No, leave me alone." Is there anything, from your point of view, that you would say about that?   Shirley: I think that's absolutely right because the other task of being an adolescent or a teenager or growing up is to learn to be independent and to learn to do things on your own. And at the moment everybody is forced to spend 24/7 with their families and that exploration and getting out there and taking a bit of a risk and learning about yourself in the world is something, it's very hard for teenagers to do at the moment. So they are going to need time to be separate and to be on their own.   And it is fine for them to tell you to back off and it's inevitable that people will feel a little bit pushed away and maybe left out or maybe tempers will be frayed and there'll be a bit more irritability. But again, I think that's one of those inevitable challenges that there's no right answer for this.   So I think that tension between needing support and also needing to be separate is really a massive struggle, especially for people who live in very small houses, don't have outside space. So sharing bedrooms. I think trying to find a space for young people to call their own, for at least some of the time is going to be really important, if that's at all possible.   Lucy: Yeah, really helpful. And helpful to remember that in the midst of trying to homeschool and all the rest of it as well actually, that to be somebody's teacher and mum and seeing them all the time is not possible.   And some of the research that you've done that I found really interesting has been about valued actions. I wondered if you could say a little bit more about what valued actions are?  Shirley: Yeah, so this comes from the research we've done with teenagers with depression and low mood. What we see when somebody has depression or beginning to become depressed is that as we feel a little bit worse, what we tend to do – this is in normal life – is to take ourselves out of our normal social activities. So young people who have got problems with depression very often, nearly always, spend more time on their own than they would have previously.   And as they do that, as they take themselves further out, they get less reward from life. So fewer of the things that would have just happened in their normal daily life, a smile from somebody or a shared joke or something that you notice outside of the house that just made you feel good about yourself, those things just are less available to you. They happen less because you take yourself out of what's happening in life.     As you withdraw what we see is you get less reward from life, or less of what we would call the 'feel good factor'. And when you get less of the 'feel good factor', that makes you feel worse. And as you feel worse, you withdraw a little bit more and you get less reward and then you get less of the 'feel good factor'.   So you find that young people with depression and adults with depression get themselves into this very hard to escape from cycle, this vicious cycle.   Lucy: Shirley's research looks at ways of trying to break the cycle of low mood and doing less.   Shirley: So, we want to break the cycle and the way we turn it around when we're working with young people is we help them to do more of what matters. More of what matters are things that are important to them and we help them decide what matters to them by talking to them about their values.   Lucy: Values are guiding principles in life, the things that show us the direction we want to go in. To work out what matters sometimes takes some real reflection on what it is that's important to us.   Shirley: Now, they're really big questions, why am I here? What am I doing? What is the point of it all? They're massive questions, but they're brilliant questions and lots of teenagers are sort of playing around with them anyway. So if we can tap into that need to work out why I'm here and what I'm doing and what my values are, it becomes a really exciting, interesting conversation.   Lucy: Shirley told me about three main areas that she tends to ask young people to think about. Values to do with themselves, like health or fun, values to do with things that matter, like education or politics and values to do with people that matter, like family and friends.   Shirley: And then the idea is that once we've helped them think about what their values are, which we can do in a very structured way, we then help them to do a little bit more of what matters. These are the valued activities.   So tiny little, small, easy to do activities that help them get a little bit more of that 'feel good factor'.   Lucy: By increasing time spent on things that matter, that vicious cycle Shirley talked about before can be reversed.  Shirley: And as that reward comes back, we start to reverse the cycle. They feel a little bit less bad, so they're able to do a little bit more and that makes them feel a little bit better. Then they can do a little bit more and so on.   So we're taking the cycle we had that was dragging them down and we're turning it into a cycle that can help them build their life back up again.   Lucy: Shirley encourages young people to think of a wide range of things that they can to help them move towards their values. Key is to make each step as easy as possible so young people feel a sense of achieving what they want, not failing. Also key is that the things really do matter to the young person.   Shirley: Most kids are doing a whole load of stuff that other people make them do. Their lives are much more circumscribed than adults' lives. They're told what to do by other people. There are hundreds of things they can't get out of. So you can be really busy doing loads of stuff, but if it doesn't really matter, you don't get that 'feel good factor'.   We find even 11 year olds and 12 year olds can begin to tell you about things that really matter to them. And these don't have to be sophisticated or complicated or smart. The importance of the value is not in its cleverness, we just care that it kind of lights you up a bit.   Lucy: Because what matters to each young person is specific to them, how the treatment looks is very individualised.   Shirley: Everybody is following a similar recipe, but what they'll be doing and how they'll be doing it and how we'll help them to do it will be completely different for every young person. The way we get them into the this, we get them to keep diaries really. And that is to help us see, and for them to see what they're currently doing and what it usually shows us is that there's almost no reward in their daily life. And so it helps us also find times in their days and their weeks when we can pack a bit of reward in, or we can swap one activity to another.   So when we do it for ourselves and we write down our activities and then we write down our values, and we try and map across, we'll nearly all find a huge gap between what we value and how we're spending our time. We're just saying, "Where's the flex here in your life to put in more of what matters?"   Lucy: Shirley's research has found that people are less likely to drop out of therapy when the treatment focuses on what matters to them in this way. It also helps young people move on from feeling stuck in the here and now.   Shirley: We don't talk about the future in an explicit way, but when you talk to a 15 year old about what their values are, they're nearly always going to connect with the future and where they want to go and what they see themselves as. And it allows them to kind of use a bit of, yeah, just a little bit of imagination about, "Oh, I don't know…"   And if they've never thought about what they want or what their values are, they go, "Oh, I don't know." It's actually quite an interesting question, even if it's something you've never thought about.   I mean the other part of what we do is we try and get other people in the young person's life to help them with those rewards because young people don't have as much autonomy or as much money. They don't have as many resources. They sometimes need practical help to get things done. Or they need encouragement, giving lifts or arranging things at home that are a little bit different to give a young person a bit more space.   Or thinking about rewards that might be shared, like deciding on somebody's favourite meal and then going out and doing the shopping together and then cooking together. That can be quite nice because it's a kind of value about wanting to get on with my family but it might also be learning a skill.   Lucy: I asked Shirley how we can use these same principles at the moment, even though young people, and adults too, are going to be unable to do all the things that they value at the moment.   Shirley: I don't think there are any fundamental differences. I just think we're looking at a different range and a different kind of repertoire that we can use.   Lucy: What Shirley said earlier about teenagers being so, so busy, but actually their time is all stuffed with things that other people want them to do made me wonder whether there's a slight perspective shift that's helpful for young people and for adults. From thinking about how much stuff we're all doing to really thinking about how much of that stuff matters to us.   Shirley: And I think if we thought more a little bit about well, what are the rewards I'm going to get from this, what am I going to take away from this that's going to make me feel good, we might make different choices about how we're going to spend our time. For me it's all about the search for more positive experiences. It's not about getting rid of bad experiences because we're all going to have bad experiences, that's just part and parcel of life. But if we're filling a lot of our time with positive rewarding experiences, there is, by default, less of the time to have more negative experiences.   Lucy: There's maybe something here for all of us. At the moment when our usual schedules are for lots of us upside down, maybe it's a chance to pay attention in a different way, to helping young people in our lives to be doing stuff that matters to them. And also to be thinking about this for ourselves.   Shirley: Learning to savour things, paying attention to those positive things that sometimes we perhaps just let them go and they've gone before we've kind of properly enjoyed them. There's a sort of opportunity to just notice a little bit more deliberately some of the more positive aspects. And that could be something like our first cup of tea in the morning.  Lucy: Always the best one.  Shirley: Exactly! Or the cat purring on your lap or I don't know, silly things, tiny things and they're different, some of them are shared, but many of them are very personal. It doesn't matter what they are, it's just capturing them somehow.   I like my phone for that reason, I do a lot of photographs of things that make me feel good because then I kind of feel I'm carrying them in my pocket. I think it's always about finding the thing that fits your preferences and your personal style. But I do think some sort of recording of what is happening in your life, especially when we're living through a weird time like this, is likely to be useful.   So that could be through writing. It could be through photos. It could be through just what you email your friends. But I think some way of kind of recording what you're doing, where you're at in your life and spending a bit of time just thinking about that becomes a very helpful habit to have. Because it can stop you falling down into those vicious cycles that when we don't notice we're falling into them, it can be much harder to climb back out later.   I would just say, I think everyone needs to give themselves a bit of a break, and their kids. And we just all need to just, what's that expression… Be kind.   Lucy: Wise words there I think, being kind to ourselves and each other goes a long way.   I hope you enjoyed that episode and can think about how both you and any young people in your lives can do more of what matters. It's challenging at this time but there are still lots of possibilities.   I've put some resources that Shirley recommended in the show notes and if you want to hear more about values in particular, check out the episode on acceptance and commitment therapy. We speak about values in that as well.   That's all for now, take care.     END OF AUDIO     

We're all living through uncertain times at the moment. What does research from CBT tell us about what tends to help people tolerate uncertainty? Dr Lucy Maddox interviews Professor Mark Freeston about what might help.   Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP For more on BABCP our website is www.babcp.com For Mark's research survey follow this link: https://www.ncl.ac.uk/who-we-are/coronavirus/research/uncertainty/ A preprint of Mark's research paper on coronavirus and uncertainty is available here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340653312_Towards_a_model_of_uncertainty_distress_in_the_context_of_Coronavirus_Covid-19 If you feel like you're struggling here are some resources: https://www.nhs.uk/oneyou/every-mind-matters/ https://www.samaritans.org/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/mental-health-helplines/ https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/mental-health-services/how-to-access-mental-health-services/ The register of BABCP accredited CBT therapists is here:  https://www.cbtregisteruk.com/ Photo by Katie Mourn on Unsplash Episode edited and produced by Lucy Maddox Music by Gabriel Stebbing Transcript  Lucy: Hi and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. This podcast is brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, BABCP. It's all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can be useful.   Today in another post-pandemic special episode I'm speaking remotely to Professor Mark Freeston from Newcastle University. Mark's research is about how intolerance of uncertainty relates to anxiety and he spoke to me about how findings from this research can be relevant at this current, very uncertain time.   Mark was clear that feelings of anxiety and distress in response to the current pandemic are totally normal.   Mark: Anxiety problems that we see in mental health services have an element that is recognised to be excessive about them. But what we're looking at at the moment, which is anxiety and distress in response to the coronavirus pandemic doesn't necessarily have this excessive element about it. So it's not a disorder, it's just a lot of very anxious and distressed people.   Lucy: How is your research particularly relevant at the moment?   Mark: Since the early 90s, we've been looking at a thing called 'intolerance of uncertainty'. This is particularly timely given the high level of uncertainty that's going on. Some people find not knowing, the unknownness of things as particularly difficult to manage.   Lucy: It's quite an existential problem almost, isn't it? It's quite a human problem that we all might have at different moments.   Mark: The evolutionary theory, so some very clever evolutionary psychologists and they say that everyone is probably born to be intolerant of uncertainty, but to greater or lesser degrees we become more able to tolerate uncertainty. So it's not like a personality trait that is sort of stuck at the same level all your life. When different things happen your ability to tolerate the unknownness of things is likely to change, not necessarily on a day-to-day basis, but you may have periods of greater tolerance or intolerance of uncertainty.   Lucy: Is it that intolerance of uncertainty which leads us to feel very anxious?   Mark: Eventually, yes. The way we've been looking at it in our current research and we've been working on this for over a year, because we've been thinking about before the pandemic came along, we'd been thinking about caregivers of people with dementia or people living with chronic and fluctuating illnesses. And so we were thinking about a lot of different types of contexts where there's both scary things happening and a lot of uncertainty going on at the same time.   If you are intolerant of uncertainty and there is real uncertainty around, you are going to probably perceive the situation as being more uncertain than it is. So you start off not liking uncertainty, then when things are uncertain, not only do you not like it, but you see the situation as even more uncertain. And you probably also look at the things that might happen, particularly the bad things that might happen as more likely. It's that combination we think, that makes people anxious.   Lucy: And then at the moment, do the same things apply, might some of us feel more anxious in response to what's going on with the pandemic than others?   Mark: Yes, and obviously people who have got more at stake, so people who are at greater risk, also about financial things. It's at multiple levels that there's lots of uncertainty going on and some people find this more difficult than others.   Lucy: Mark told me about some research which suggests that over the last 30 years we've all been finding uncertainty harder to tolerate.   Mark: What we found is that intolerance of uncertainty scores have been going up since the 1990s.   Lucy: Oh really?   Mark: Yeah, so essentially year on year. One of my colleagues in Canada, Nick Carlton did a very nice study where they looked at all the published North American studies of similar types, examples, and then they looked at the extent to which people had mobile phones or high speed broadband.   And so if you think from the early 90s through until the mid-2015s, then there's been a massive increase in our degree of connectedness, the access of information. And so one of the ideas is that the more information that we have available, the less certain we are about things.   Lucy: This research suggests that sometimes too much information can be unhelpful, can make us more uncertain.   Mark categorised information about Coronavirus into three types. Information that we need to know, like the current rules that we're all expected to follow. Information that might be interesting to know, like answers to responsible questions that are being asked about what's happening. And then less helpful information which is unreliable or even malicious.   Even the responsible questions might sometimes be problematic because they're often unanswerable, so they might just generate more uncertainty.   Mark: There's a lot of people working on the assumption that the answer is out there if only I can find it. From the point of view I've been working from, we can't information our way out of this, out of feeling uncertain.   Lucy: We will likely all have had other times in our lives when things have felt uncertain and when it's felt difficult to tolerate this.   Mark: I was reflecting on my own life and I've emigrated three times in my life, okay? From the UK to New Zealand, from New Zealand to Quebec and Quebec back to the UK. And so obviously they tend to be very uncertain times because you don't quite know what to expect.   So things like emigration or becoming a parent for the first time or moving in with a partner for the first time. So it's not just bad things, but these are just things where you don't know what it's going to be like because you haven't done it before.   Everyone has had experience of big changes, sometimes they're chosen sometimes they're imposed. And there's only so much you can find out, the rest you have to wait and see and that's an uncomfortable state to be in. But the belief that drives people to try and get more and more information is that the answer is there, but it probably isn't. It would be nice to say that the information is there, but it's not.   Lucy: What do you know about, from your research, into intolerance of uncertainty that might help people at this time?   Mark: I think there's two main things to do at this time. I think one thing is people really thinking about their use of information and where they're getting it from and is that being helpful or not. Those are the things you want to manage the intake.   But there might be other types of information that might be worth finding out, that might put a bit more balance back into things. Are the birds still singing? What are some of the things that people are doing to help each other out?   Rather than stories about all the things we don't know, there's plenty of stories about people who are actually getting on and doing things, groups of people getting organised. So being a bit more selective in what news you go looking for.   Lucy: I really like that. The birds are still singing in Bristol, happily! (Laughs)  Mark: They're still singing here in Whitley Bay as well and as usual, as for every year, we've got a particularly noisy group of sparrows that have taken up residence and I'm pretty sure the starlings will be under the eaves and they'll be making noise for the next few months. That bit hasn't changed.   Lucy: So managing information could be about restricting input of stuff that's not so helpful, but also looking for information that balances the picture out a bit, it's really nice.   Mark: Yeah, certainly. And I guess that looking for information, that balances things out a bit leads onto the next point, which is the thing about intolerance of uncertainty is that we need the presence of safety rather than just the absence of threat. So if we don't have the presence of safety, that's when we feel uncomfortable and that's when intolerance of uncertainty kicks in.   So it's not just that there's no possibility of bad things happening, it's about the presence of signs that things are okay in very small ways. Hence are the birds still singing? That's an example.   We know how disrupting the pandemic has been at all sorts of levels, but it's very easy to focus on the big disruptions, right? So people cannot go out, they cannot socialise, they cannot go to school, but there's probably lots of little disruptions that people don't even notice as much. Small routines of everyday life.   Lucy: One of the everyday routines that Mark has made sure to keep the same is his morning cup of coffee and a new small thing he's noticed is that he started to eat Marmite again, which he hasn't had since he was a boy.   Mark: So I guess it was one of the signals of safety that would go back a long way. It's these small routines that can help us feel safer, even when there's a lot of uncertainty.   Lucy: That's really nice because that's something we have some control over actually isn't it?   Mark: Yes.   Lucy: Whether we can keep some of those small routines in place.   Mark: Many, many, many people have been taken, if you like, out of their comfort zone. What are the different things that help us feel settled and safe? And then that means that if we can get those, our perception of uncertainty will go down, our perception of danger will go down a bit and we'll be a little less distressed and anxious.   Lucy: So two things there which might help at this time based on the research that Mark has done. Number one, thinking about which information we seek out and how often. And number two, thinking about how we signal to ourselves that we're safe. Perhaps in quite small, but still significant ways.   Mark: There's other types of information that says the world is still as we know it and that's sort of the link between feeling safe and information management. That's where the two come together.   Lucy: Although we're all experiencing uncertainty at the moment, Mark acknowledged that some people may be finding things extra hard if they have personal experiences in their past which resonate with what's happening at the moment in some way.   Mark: There'll be things happening, whether it's due to isolation, whether it's medical threat, whether it's seeing one part of your life being disrupted. This is going to, I guess wake up or trigger things that you might not have thought about for a long time.   So I think it's being able to recognise that it isn't just what's going on outside in the world, it's what's going on inside your own mind as there's a degree of match between some of the things that you're being exposed to, that we're all being exposed to, and things that we've lived through in the past.   Lucy: If you feel like that's the case for you at the moment, do please try to reach out and seek help, whether from friends and family or from professional sources of support.   I've put some links in the show notes to some different resources and also to the BABCP register of accredited CBT therapists. Also in the show notes is a link to the survey that Mark has been sharing and a recent journal article that he's written.   If you liked this episode, there are loads more you can listen to at the Let's Talk about CBT website, or wherever you get your podcast from. There's a short episode featuring Jo Daniels about anxiety in relation to coronavirus and a new episode about CBT bipolar disorder too.   If you have ideas for other episodes, feel free to get in touch at [email protected].   Meanwhile, stay safe and stay well. We spoke in this episode about how the birds are still singing, so I thought I'd leave you with a little bit of birdsong recorded just outside of Bristol after the theme tune plays us out.     END OF AUDIO     

Note: This episode was recorded before government guidance on restricting travel due to coronavirus. We all experience ups and downs in mood, but what happens when the highs are so high and the lows are so low that it really interferes with your life? In this episode we hear from Cate Catmore and Professor Steven Jones about CBT for bipolar disorder.   Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP For more resources check out these links below. Books Coping with bipolar disorder by Steve Jones, Peter Haywood and Dominic Lam https://www.amazon.co.uk/Coping-Bipolar-Disorder-CBT-Informed-Depression-ebook/dp/B07ZWQ877T/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=coping+with+bipolar+disorder&qid=1585237730&s=digital-text&sr=1-1   Overcoming Mood Swings by Jan Scott https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003GUBILQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1   Online resources NICE guidelines on bipolar are summarised here https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg185   Cate spoke about mindfulness. You can hear more about mindfulness-based cognitive therapies here https://letstalkaboutcbt.libsyn.com/lets-talk-about-cbt-mindfulness-based-therapies   This BPS report is called Understanding Bipolar Disorder https://shop.bps.org.uk/understanding-bipolar-disorder.html   Recovery toolkit for friends and relatives of someone with bipolar disorder based on research at Lancaster University https://reacttoolkit.uk/   Guardian article on CBT for bipolar disorder by Lucy from a few years ago https://www.theguardian.com/science/sifting-the-evidence/2016/feb/08/nice-critique-a-call-for-more-research-not-an-excuse-for-less-treatment-psychotherapy-cbt   If you'd like to read more academic journal articles this range of papers about bipolar disorder has been made free until 30th April 2020 from the BABCP journals  https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioural-and-cognitive-psychotherapy/bipolar-articles-from-bcp-and-tcbt   The photo is by Claire Satera on Unsplash This episode was produced by Lucy Maddox.   Transcript Lucy: Hello and welcome to let's talk about CBT, with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. This podcast brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies or BABCP is all about CBT. What it is, what it's not and how it can be useful. As an aside, if you listen regularly to this podcast and like it, please do consider rating and reviewing it, it helps other people to find it.   And if you have ideas for other episodes that you'd like to listen to, just let me know at [email protected]. Right then, I thought I'd start this episode with a quote from Kaye Redfield Jamison, who's a clinical psychologist and writer. She writes, "When you're high it's tremendous, the ideas and feelings are fast and frequent like shooting stars, and you follow them until you find better and brighter ones.  But somewhere, this changes. The fast ideas are far too fast and there are far too many. You are irritable, angry, frightened, uncontrollable and enmeshed totally in the blackest caves of the mind." That was about Kaye's experience of bipolar disorder which is the diagnosis that this episode concentrates on.   For this podcast, I went to Lancaster and met Cate, who's experienced the highs and lows of bipolar disorder and what CBT can do to help. And Steve, whose research team works on a CBT-based intervention for bipolar disorder.   Cate: I'm Cate Catmore, I'm 64, and I live with my husband, got two children, two sons and two granddaughters. I did CBT a while ago and then I had a course of recovery-based CBT recently.   Steve: Hi, I'm Steve Jones, I'm co-director of the Spectrum Centre for mental health research at Lancaster University. The focus of our work is on trying to learn more about the psychological and social factors underpinning bipolar disorder and related conditions. And to use that information and learning to develop new interventions that are developed with the service user in mind. We've been in existence for about 11 or 12 years, and we've always had people with lived experience of bipolar disorder as colleagues as well as collaborators.   Lucy: Cate had her recovery-based CBT as part of a research study at Lancaster University, delivered by one of Steve's colleagues. It's not the first time Cate had CBT for bipolar disorder, but she felt she was more able to access it this time round.   Cate: In the very first place I had CBT when I was hospitalised about 10 years ago. I hadn't kept up with it, and I'd just let it slide, really. And then, I heard about recovery-based CBT through a bipolar support group at Lancaster University.   Lucy: I asked Cate about her experience of having bipolar disorder.   Cate: I didn't have too many manic episodes, but I have to say that was how it was diagnosed, and I must admit I did enjoy the manic phase.   Lucy: What did it feel like?  Cate: It felt free and exciting and I wanted to do everything that I could, and I felt that everything that I did I was doing very well. The main thing that I remember or being very enthusiastic at work and doing a lot more than I was called on to do. I was lucky that I didn't spend all that much, but I did give a lot of money away to charity.   But the best thing (laughs) and it sounds so self-important, but we went out a lot then, probably instigated by me. Me and my husband went out a lot. I used to say, "Oh got to get to this party early, because nobody will enjoy themselves if I don't get there."   Lucy: What a lovely feeling, though.   Cate: It was a lovely feeling, and sometimes I think I wish I could be a bit more like that. And I don't really get the highs anymore, I get the lows, but not the highs. And I know that they're dangerous and they're not healthy, but when you experience them, they are quite nice (laughs).   Lucy: Yeah, it sounds nice.   Cate: Mine wasn't destructive, I have to say, so I was lucky that I just had the nice inside feelings. I didn't gamble like some people do, and I didn't go out and buy a car or anything like that, just made me feel really good and bigger than I was.   Lucy: Yeah, that's a really nice way of describing. Bigger. Yeah. And what's the other end of the experience? So, the lower bit like?   Cate: Well, the lower bit was very low. Part of the manic bit eventually made things quite stressful because I was jumping from one thing to another. And so, work did become stressful and then home life became stressful because I was trying to do so much at home. And then, I got an eating disorder, and they both seemed to feed one another. So, losing weight so much made me more manic, I think.   And then, the more manic I was, the less I ate because I was doing so much, didn't have any appetite. So, it was that, really that led to me to be admitted to hospital. And then, I wasn't really high anymore after that. Then, the low bit started, which lasted a long time. So, I was in hospital quite a long time.   I think I left a lot of myself behind in that hospital. I don't really think I've ever been quite the same person that I was before. Even though I was assured I was, I think it does have a big effect. Yeah.   Lucy: Steve described the definition of bipolar disorder to me.   Steve: I guess bipolar disorder is typically defined in terms of experience of substantial variation in mood. So, most people with bipolar disorder will have experience of both periods of mania where mood is extremely elevated, people can feel very euphoric. They can have lots of energy, but often that can be mixed together with other things, which make it more complicated like feeling very irritable or frustrated.   And then, periods of depression, which are not unlike periods of depression, feeling rather hopeless and very down, and finding it really hard to get going and engage in normal life. And historically, bipolar has been seen as those two things, really. And what tends to be missed out is that often people are experiencing quite a lot of challenges in between those sorts of episodes, where they're not really experiencing mania and they're not really experiencing depression, but there's often quite a lot of mood variation going on.   And people are also working quite hard to make sense of the variety of experiences that they have. So, quite a lot of our work is targeting that middle period, which seems to be actually pretty crucial for people to then develop a platform for getting on with their lives.   Cate: Mood swings but extreme ones. Yeah, and they can last a varying length of time as well. So, people can be manic just for a short length of time, mine was relatively short, I suppose, two months. But then, I've found that the other side of it is quite dark, the depression can be quite dark. So, I think it's just like an exaggerated way of how a lot of people are, that just manage it normally in their day-to-day life.   I sometimes think that people are a bit wary of mood swings and think that something that they say that's wrong might cause a sudden up or a sudden down. And it isn't like that, at all. It's not so erratic as that.   Lucy: So, what does CBT for bipolar disorder involve?  Steve: An important part of any successful intervention with people with experience of bipolar and a core aspect of the recovery-focused approach is really working with the person initially, to get a shared understanding of their experiences that have brought them to the intervention.   Which isn't just a symptom history, because obviously with things like variable mood, the point, the continuum between something that's a problem and something that's normal experience and parsing those things out is one of the challenges people live with. So, people will often be able to for instance identify experiences where mood elevation has been in some ways amazingly good for them.   It allowed them to get a promotion or complete a task they otherwise might not have been able to complete. But then, there are also occasions when that's tipped over into something that's had a profound effect on their lives. And it's not hard to imagine how trying to pull all that together and make sense of it. Which bits do you want, which bits don't you want, which bits are you, which bits are some part of bipolar isn't something people find readily easily resolved without a bit of time and reflection, I think. So, getting that story clear and in a shared way can be a really useful platform for them working out, okay, so what do you want to change? And what do you want to have more of?    Lucy: So, anyone listening, who's thinking that they might want to try CBT for bipolar they could expect to have that kind of shared understanding at the start about what's happened for them and what they would like to work on?  Steve: We're not going to assume that it's about mood or it's about something else. We're going to work with you to find out what is the thing that's causing you difficulty and how shall we address that together.  Lucy: Cate told me a bit about what her most recent experience of CBT had been like.   Cate: Well, it was a talking therapy. We talked about issues that bothered me, and basically about ways to cope with those, identifying what they were, and what triggered them. And different ways of coming to terms with them and coping with them.   Lucy: If you were describing it to somebody who hadn't had it before, what would they see happening in the room? What was going on?  Cate: Well, two people talking together, basically in a chatting way, some writing going on to remind you what had been discussed with the therapist, and then to work on that during the week. I found it very helpful, I found it perhaps a bit stressful at first. And it did bring some things to the surface that were quite emotional, so sometimes there was a bit of crying going on.   But that was usually resolved during the course of the session, and then given ways to work on that. And why those feelings caused upset as well. The sessions lasted about an hour, sometimes a little bit over, not usually less. And it was a course of 12 weeks. And during that 12 weeks, I kept a diary of what we talked about. And then, kept a diary during the week, to keep a record of what had happened. And then, a memo to myself to talk to Lizzie about what had come up during the week.   Lucy: That's great, sounds really organised.   Cate: It was, yeah.   Lucy: And do you still use some of the techniques now?  Cate: I do, I was looking back at the diary that I'd made and yeah, I have kept it on board. It's not a therapy you do 12 weeks of therapy and that's it, it's finished, all your problems are gone, you get on with your life and it's all finished. You're cured sort of thing. It's something it's an ongoing process.   Lucy: Because recovery-focused CBT for bipolar disorder is focused on helping with whatever goals the person brings, it can include different CBT techniques, which help with different problems.   Steve: So, we use tools that we know from CBT for bipolar, CBT for anxiety, psychological approaches to substance use to bring together a package for that individual. So, the manual for recovery-focused therapy is quite a long document, because it encompasses all these possibilities. And it reflects what we were talking about, about quite individualised routes through therapy.   Lucy: What's your favourite kind of strategies to use from it? What sort of things do you use?  Cate: I use distraction, and something comforting that I find soothing, like sewing or seeing a friend or phoning my sister, but reading is a big thing as well. Sometimes even cleaning the cooker, something a bit mindless, really, just a distraction. But also, to remember that the feelings that I have aren't special to me. That not only people with bipolar or depression get feelings like that, that everybody does, the population does. And not to get too hung up on it, and I also use mindfulness as well, which is a big thing, yeah.   Lucy: Mindfulness is something that the episode on mindfulness-based cognitive therapy has loads more information about if you're interested. This is how Cate came to find mindfulness.   Cate: I did an online course in it which was great. It was to bring yourself back into the moment all the time, because so much time is spent thinking about the past, which I do and ruminating on things, which are big. That's gone, and if you're wasting your time now, now is all that you've got. And people miss so much in the moment. There was a lot of different ways to keep mindful.   A lot of it was just sitting and concentrating on breathing for two minutes. But also, when you're out walking, to look at the trees, to feel the ground underneath your feet, really ground yourself, literally to feel yourself walking. And I do notice things more while I'm out, and it makes it a pleasure. Exercise is often recommended for people, but you can go out for a walk and you can keep your head down and worry about things and just be walking.   You're in the fresh air and you're doing some exercise, but you're not really noticing what's going on around you, which is the soothing bit. Listening, mindful listening is a big thing as well. I tend to let my thoughts run away with me. So, when somebody's speaking I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to say rather than really listening to them. And that's been a big thing for me, to actually listen to somebody else properly.   Lucy: That's really interesting, have you noticed it makes a difference to the conversations you have?  Cate: Yeah, it has, I feel more involved with the person and what they're saying. And I think it probably makes me feel kinder towards the person, as well. Yeah.   Lucy: I've been reading some stuff about being kind to yourself recently, as well. Do you think that comes into it, too?  Cate: It does, yeah. I definitely think being kinder to yourself, not making too much of things, not thinking about all the bad things about yourself. But concentrate on the good things that you can do and the good things that you can do now and in the future. And not think about the bad things that you've already done, which are gone. You can't do anything about it now, it's finished.   Lucy: Cate talked about distraction, self-soothing and mindfulness strategies there. Other strategies that might be used in CBT for bipolar disorder might include trying out different behaviours to see what difference they make to mood. And sometimes gradually doing things that feel quite hard to do but that make someone feel better. There might also be ways of thinking that are getting someone stuck and Steve talked about some of these.   Steve: When people come in low mood, they may have a lot of negative thoughts and beliefs and tapping into those and looking at ways of finding alternative ways of thinking could be really useful. When somebody's mood is going up, you can also look at the patterns of thinking that are going on there. And work with the person to examine those in relation to how useful are they, how risky are they?   What elements of those do they feel that they want to retain? And how can some aspects that may be problematic be adjusted? I think one of the things that people will often struggle somewhat with is recalibrating. So, if somebody is at quite a low ebb when they come into therapy, and they've got an awareness of what they were previously able to do, which was often functioning at a higher level for anyone.   People will often come with a view that they either need to be there or nowhere. They either need to be right on top of where they were performing at their peak, or there's no point. And so, actually even fairly simple behavioural experiments, testing out, doing things that aren't meeting that criterion but are reasonable things to be doing. And the impact that that can have on subtle shifts in mood can be really useful on unsticking people.   Lucy: Cate told me a bit more about some of her experiences before and how she feels now.   Cate: I think I'm more on an even keel with some downs now. Yeah, and I try and think that everybody has that. And everybody finds a different way of managing it.   Lucy: I know you were saying you felt like you'd left a lot behind, but actually it sounds like you have gained a lot of different skills and strategies actually through your experiences as well.   Cate: Yeah, I think I have, and leaving work was a big thing, because I felt left work under a bit of a cloud, really, because it meant going into hospital.  Lucy: What were you working as?  Cate: I was a gynae nurse, and I worked on the gynae ward and in a bit of gynae oncology and in the outpatients as well. So, I did like my job and I had a lot of good friends, but I felt that I'd left under a bad situation, really. And I never did go back to work after, which used to worry me, because I didn't go back to work. Well, I stopped work when I was 51. So, it used to worry me, not working worried me for a long time. But then when all my friends started retiring, it felt a bit better (laughs).   Lucy: I asked Steve about that sense of loss that Cate had described earlier. Something Cate said really stuck with me, actually, just about how she really enjoyed some of the highs and actually not having those felt like quite a loss. How do you manage that in the therapy?  Steve: I think for a start, you deal with that by taking it seriously. So, I think a lot of people will have had the experience maybe with some other clinicians that they may have come into over the years of being slightly patronised in their valuing of these highs. That it's just you're not well, so that's just you not being well. You need to have something which makes you not go there.   I think working with the person to get a thorough understanding of actually okay, what does go on in those? Are there versions of that are dangerous to you and risky to you? And are there versions of that that are less so? And at what point do these things tip over? Can allow people to actually experience a range of mood states that are part of human experience.   So, on the one hand, yes being sleep deprived for three weeks while you do lots of things is probably for most people likely to lead them into challenging situations. But small amounts of changes in routine to accomplish a certain task, followed by a planned way of decompressing afterwards can actually work quite well for some people. So, that's why it's not a short therapy in a sense.   It's taking the time to be able to unpack those things for people, so that you're working together to see what you can take from that valued element of experience and what needs to be adjusted.   Lucy: Steve was really clear that someone shouldn't have to go to multiple services if they experience multiple problems. That CBT for bipolar disorder could flex to help people with not only ups and downs in mood, but also anxiety, substance misuse or other more functional goals. I was curious about how Steve measured change. Must be quite a challenge for measuring how effective therapies are, when there are quite a lot of different goals that each person might come with.   Steve: Yes, that's a very good point. And I think there's quite a debate about what's a good measure of an outcome. So, our position on that is that most people actually come for help because of subjective problems, their perception that they're experiencing something that's difficult. So, in the past, a subjective outcome has almost been regarded as not a proper outcome.   Whereas I think if it's done properly, they are absolutely important outcomes, because if people are happy with how they are functioning and where they're at, relative to where they want to be, in a sense they're doing what they need to do. And my view is as clinical psychologists, that's our job is to support people to get where they want to be.   Lucy: Cate now works in a range of volunteer roles.   Cate: With the voluntary work, I'm confident when I go out and do that.   Lucy: What's that? What sort of voluntary work are you doing?  Cate: Well, I'll go and read individually with the children at the local primary school. So, I did the five- and six-year-olds last year, but I was quite pleased really, because they said, "You're really confident with the children, and you know a lot about phonics. So, will you read with the little ones?" So, I've got four- and five-year-olds now. They're really sweet (laughs).   Lucy: Lovely.   Cate: Yeah, I think you're really giving something, because learning to read is so basic to everything else. And then, the other voluntary work that I do is through church. And it's street pastors, you'll have street pastors in Bristol but you'll never have seen them.   Lucy: No, I don't know them.   Cate: So, it's run through all the churches in Preston. And it was started in Birmingham as a response to gun crime. The police asked could churches be around and about and talking to people. And gun crime did go down, and it spread out from there, from gun crime the people the street pastors were meeting homeless people. And then, helping people who were on a night out, who couldn't help themselves, they'd drunk too much. So, yeah, we try and get homeless people to go to services.   Lucy: I also asked Steve about the evidence base for CBT for bipolar disorder. He mentions NICE guidelines here, which are from the National Institute of Clinical Excellence. I've put a link in the show notes if you're curious.   Steve: So, the evidence is pretty good for the impact of CBT on mood and relapse. So, the NICE guidance for bipolar disorder in 2014 recommends that everyone living with bipolar has access to the opportunity to engage with psychological therapy based on their systematic review of the evidence.   The evidence on enhancing personal recovery is not as large, partly because it's an evolving field and it's more in the last eight years, I think, there's been a lot of interest in that. But certainly, as I mentioned with our recovery-focused trial, we've got evidence for that being beneficial. And it does seem as though there are a range of ways you can improve those sorts of outcomes.   Lucy: Cate described therapy as being like a river.   Cate: I've seen it described as a river, and the therapy is on one side, but one day you've got to swim across that river and get to the other side.   Lucy: I've not heard that before, I like that. Yes.   Cate: Yeah, it's quite nice, I did think at one time when I was still having therapy and thinking about getting to the other side, what if I get swept away? Which is a bit of a risk, but you've got to keep the image set in your mind that it will be calm waters that you swim across.   Lucy: I think there's something in that, though, isn't there? That fear of what are you stepping into? And is it going to be worse not better?   Cate: Yeah, I don't think any therapy is a one size fits all. And I think you have to be in the right place to engage with it, as well.   Lucy: Steve thinks views on CBT for bipolar disorder have come a long way.   Steve: I remember when we were first doing one of the very early trials of CBT for bipolar. There was a lot of resistance to it from clinical colleagues in the sense that their argument was when people are manic, you can't work with them. When they're profoundly depressed, you can't work with them. And if they're not in either, what problem is left? It's a very simplistic view of people's experience, but that's where we were maybe in the mid 90s.   Now, there are a range of studies going on internationally in bipolar and I think there's a gradually increasing recognition that the psychological dimension to experiencing bipolar isn't a nice to have. But is a crucial aspect of both improving outcomes for people with bipolar, but also helping them with the human task of making sense of what's actually gone on.   Lucy: Cate was encouraging about trying CBT for bipolar disorder if you're considering it.   Cate: I'd definitely give it a go. I think perhaps the name cognitive behavioural therapy sounds a bit off putting. But it's a way of getting to understand your feelings, getting to understand different phases of bipolar and how to cope with them. They're actually quite simple, and it's good to have some help.   Lucy: I asked Steve why he likes working in talking therapies for bipolar disorder.   Steve: Bipolar if you like is pretty rare in terms of being a condition where some of the cardinal symptoms actually can confer an advantage. And I also find it personally fascinating working with people who are living alongside these experiences. I think actually living with the turbulence that bipolar can generate is pretty challenging.   And frankly, I admire the way a lot of people actually fold that into their lives and get on with a really engaged life. And if we can do something to support them in that, I think that's a worthwhile thing to do.   Lucy: That's all for today. Thanks so much listening. There are links in the show notes to more resources, and if you liked this episode, there are lots more you can listen to. Series one went through different types of CBT and series two is working through different types of problem that CBT can help with, including recent episodes on self-harm and perfectionism.   If you're thinking about having CBT and you want to find a BABCP accredited therapist, check out www.babcp.com and look for CBT register.     Thanks so much, lovely chatting with you.   Cate: Is that it?   Lucy: That's it.     END OF AUDIO   

This is an understandably stressful time and it's normal to feel worried. What can we learn from CBT for health anxiety that might help us with feelings of anxiety during the pandemic? In this short bonus episode, Dr Lucy Maddox interviews Dr Jo Daniels from Bath University, about things we know are likely to help.    Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Read an article by Dr Jo Daniels on how to stop anxiety about coronavirus spiralling out of control here:  https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-how-to-stop-the-anxiety-spiralling-out-of-control-133166 Another article about panic here: https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/truth-about-panic And this about how it's normal to feel worried:  https://www.ft.com/content/d6c65a50-6395-11ea-abcc-910c5b38d9ed BBC piece on protecting your mental health at this time: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51873799 BABCP: www.babcp.com Photo by Kelly Sikkema on Unsplash Transcript Lucy: Hi, I'm Dr Lucy Maddox and this is Let's Talk About CBT. This is a podcast brought to you by the British Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Psychotherapies.   This is a bit of an unusual episode. I've come to Bath University to interview Dr Jo Daniels who has experience in researching health anxiety in relation to medical conditions. There's obviously a great deal of worry around at the moment, understandably, in relation to coronavirus.   I've come to ask Jo about how we can look after our psychological wellbeing as well as our physical health. The information that Jo talks about is based on cognitive behavioural therapy principles for anxiety. Obviously there's no evidence base for this in relation to coronavirus in particular, but really health anxiety in relation to any physical illness has some very similar features, so we hope that this advice can be helpful.   Jo: My name is Jo Daniels and I'm a senior lecturer in clinical psychology and also a clinical psychologist working in health.   Lucy: Could you say a bit about the work that you've done that's relevant to our reactions to the coronavirus pandemic?  Jo: The research that I've done so far is focused on health anxiety and distress in medical conditions. I do some work in the emergency department and think about why people keep coming back in and it's usually to do with anxiety rather than pain. I've also worked in health anxiety in complex conditions such as Addison's disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, also stroke, looking at how important anxiety is in both emotion and physical experience.   Lucy: Fab. I mean it's really understandable that people are feeling worried at this time because there's loads of stuff around about Covid-19 and about what we should be doing about it. What advice would you have about how we can avoid spiralling out into panic about what's happening?  Jo: I think the first thing to say, which feels quite important, is it's very, very normal to have a fear response, to feel anxious because this is a threat really and that's the way that our brains are interpreting it, as a threat. Important to just accept that we're all a little bit worried at the moment and we're really in it together.   In terms of the things that we can do help ourselves, it's a digital age, so a lot of people are accessing various sources of media and information at the moment. Thinking about where the notifications are essential, thinking about the sources of information that we access, where some of the new stories are designed to be alarmist.   Keeping perspective is really, really important and we can do that in a number of ways. So keeping in touch, especially if we're moving into having to be at home, we need to be in touch with people to keep perspective and also to keep ourselves happy.   Also trying to stay calm. It's really important that we go about our normal daily business as much as we can. Things are going to change over the next few months, but normality is really important. So ensuring that we do the same things that we normally do and don't adapt too much because sometimes when we do that, we start to do things that are actually counterproductive.   Lucy: So like a balance between following the advice that's out there, the sensible advice on reputable websites, but doing as much as we can to keep our routine and keep in touch digitally with people that we care about?   Jo: Exactly. It's really important to be vigilant, but not hyper vigilant. If you look for trouble, that's what you'll find.   Lucy: What does hyper vigilance mean, just in case people don't know that?   Jo: That's when we're really paying extra attention to things. You see that a lot in health anxiety and at the moment I think a lot of us may be doing that, looking for signs of coronavirus.   The interesting thing is, is that actually if we become quite anxious; we will product physical symptoms in our body that may mimic it. So things like chest pain, you can get a bit of chest pain or dizziness, nausea, feeling a bit hot, all of those physical sensations can be anxiety or they can be something like coronavirus, which is another reason why it's important to stay calm. As obvious as it sounds, to keep breathing.   Lucy: I find that really interesting because if I get anxious or worried, I normally feel like I get quite short of breath. Is that quite a common symptom that you would say?   Jo: Yes, definitely. We see hyperventilating – even if it's at moderate level you might not even notice – in anxiety. Some shallow breathing and again, that sends signals to the brain that there is a threat and it does trigger off, it can trigger off a 'fight or flight' response, or an anxiety response. And there is a lot that we can do to help ourselves at this time, but panicking and anxiety is not helpful.   Lucy: Could you say a bit more about 'fight or flight' response, I expect people would have heard about that, but just a bit more detail?  Jo: So fear is a very normal response and that fear response is ultimately designed to keep you safe, it's a survival mechanism. We can receive incoming information that triggers off a 'fight or flight' response that actually isn't a real threat to us. It's designed to deal with threats such as seeing a scary lion chasing us in the African plain, but actually we still get an anxiety response, a 'fight or flight' response when we send a text message to the wrong person, for example.   What happens then is we have a lot of hormones released around our body and people might be familiar with breaking into a sweat or hyperventilating a little bit or palpitations. Many, many symptoms are essentially designed so that we can fight really hard or run really fast just to keep us safe.   Lucy: But not very helpful to run away from a mobile phone when we send a wrong text message.   Jo: No, not really, that's where it doesn't work very well, 'fight or flight' response because we haven't evolved, if you like, to be able to distinguish between what's a real threat and what's being perceived as something like a social threat where a 'fight or flight' response actually can be quite unhelpful and actually stressful.   Lucy: It's tricky with this isn't it, because it is a real threat and at the same time there's a quite a lot of panic around which might be unhelpful.   Jo: Yes, exactly and that again brings on further symptoms associated with anxiety. So it's really important to, as much as we can, give our bodies and our brains the message that actually there is a threat, but we can deal with it in a pragmatic way.   Lucy: If someone has an existing mental health problem, any advice about how to stop that being exacerbated?  Jo: I think it's a difficult time for people who have got anxiety already because they're already going to be quite sensitive to anything else that can be perceived as a threat.   The same applies really, so trying to maintain distance from the difficulty, just following the sensible precautions, making sure that you're in contact with the people who care about you, both friends and family, but also GP as well, if things are escalating a little bit and it becomes unmanageable or you become preoccupied. It's really important to put into place strategies that you know that work.   Lucy: So still that balance between making sure you're accessing information about what to do, but not over checking, either symptoms in yourself or over checking websites that might be showing quite scary stories.   Jo: That's right. We know that panic breeds panic. So if we see other people panic buying, then we're more inclined to do that as well. So just trying to, again, take a step back when we feel ourselves becoming anxious and trying to retain that perspective.   Lucy: One of the things that's so tricky about this is that there's a lot of uncertainty around about what's going to happen and what we're going to be advised.  Jo: We are mostly intolerant of uncertainty and that in itself can be problematic in the sense that this will perpetuate anxiety, that'll keep anxiety going. Rather than the actual illness itself, or the fear of the illness, it's the uncertainty of, "Will I catch it? Will I be able to manage it? Will I be badly affected?"  Lucy: And actually it can get us checking online news a lot more can't it, to see what are we being advised on a moment-to-moment basis.   Jo: That's right and that's the problem sometimes with anxiety. Even mild anxiety, because some of us who may not be usually prone to anxiety, will feel a little bit anxious at this time, for understandable reasons. But some of those strategies we use are counterproductive. I don't know of any good examples of where people have Googled their symptoms and come off feeling better.   So check that checking behaviour, it can make us feel better momentarily, but really serves to increase our anxiety and of course then we get stuck in a loop feeling like because that anxiety was reduced for a moment by checking, that we keep doing it. But of course, it really serves to increase our anxiety.  Lucy: What are some things that we can do that would be more helpful than checking online?   Jo: One of the things we can do, given that we are experiencing mild levels of 'fight or flight' response, that fear response, is to try and get rid of some of that adrenaline. Exercise is really important, not only does it get rid of that adrenaline, it also allows us to keep perspective and keep fit at the same time.   But also just making sure that we keep in touch, check reliable sources and just follow the guidance. There are a lot of busy people who have got a lot of knowledge in this area who are giving very sound advice. So just keep up to date with what the precautions are.   Lucy: And how do we know that these things are helpful?  Jo: Thankfully we know a lot about anxiety, so for many, many years there's been lots of research, lots of empirical data-based studies which have supported the development of models of anxiety. And anxiety is the same applied in different settings.   Whilst anxiety in mathematical conditions may not present the same, it's very, very similar. Those principles which are underpinned by cognitive behavioural approach we've seen work in other situations where people experience anxiety, and in that sense there's no difference here. People tend to do the same kinds of things when they're anxious and we know that the same kinds of things will help.   Lucy: So to sum up, follow the advice on the government websites. Try to look after yourselves and other people by managing some of the anxiety response that's going on as well.   Jo: That's right.   Lucy: Have you got anything that you would like to add at all?   Jo: I think what feels essential is that where we can, we respond to this in a compassionate and community focused way. We're going to be in this together as a community, so it's really important that we look out for our neighbours, those who are vulnerable to us and express some understanding towards those who do feel anxious, who are finding it difficult.   Lucy: I hope you found that as helpful as I did. And if by the time this podcast is out we have moved into a phase where we're having to stay at home a bit more, I hope you can remember those tips of trying to keep a routine as much as possible, following advice, but also trying not to get too preoccupied. Jo described this as having some kind of normality within an abnormal situation.   If you're stuck at home and you want to listen to some more podcasts, there's plenty of episodes of Let's Talk About CBT to keep you company.     END OF AUDIO   

Imagine being asked to give up the most effective strategy you have for coping with stressful situations... this is often what it can feel like to people trying to give up self-harm.  In this episode, Dr Lucy Maddox talks to Jane, who first used self-harm when she was 14, and Dr Lucy Taylor, who works with young people to try to overcome self-harm.  This episode contains discussion about self-harm and reference to suicide.  Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Books Cutting Down by Lucy Taylor, Mima Simic, & Ulrike Schmidt https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cutting-Down-workbook-treating-self-harm/dp/0415624533 Websites www.cbtregister.uk for a list of BABCP accredited therapists https://youngminds.org.uk/ for resources for parents and children about self harm https://www.minded.org.uk/ for resources on child and adolescent mental health and development www.babcp.com for more CBT resources You can also listen to our podcast on Dialectical Behavioural Therapy, or DBT, for more on a different approach to self harming. Transcript Lucy: Hi, and welcome to let's talk about CBT, with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. This podcast, brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies or BABCP, is all about CBT. What it is, what it's not, and how it can be useful. Today, we're focusing on CBT for self-harm.   We obviously talk a lot about self-harm and we also mention suicide, so please look after yourselves and if you know that's something that's especially hard for you to listen to, then maybe just skip this one.   Jane: I think self-harm is something that is a way to control your feelings. It was a way for me to feel something and know why I was feeling it, and know that I was doing it, and know that I could understand it.   Lucy: That was Jane, who we're going to hear more from in a bit. For this episode, I also went to speak to Dr Lucy Taylor, a clinical psychologist, who has worked for 20 years in the NHS, mostly with children and young people. And who now works in private practice in Surrey.   Lucy T: My main interests are self-harm and cognitive behavioural therapy and how to engage young people that might be struggling a little bit to come to therapy.   Lucy: Could you say a little bit about what self-harm is?  Lucy T: Yeah, I think generally, the way we think about self-harm is on a dimension, and when we look at the literature and we look at the studies on self-harm, we talk about causing deliberate harm to your body. And that might be through cutting yourself or burning yourself or taking an overdose. But when we're talking about the dimension, it might mean also maybe drinking a little bit too much alcohol or not eating nutritionally rich food or restricting your diet.   So, it can mean lots of different things, but when we're talking about it within the clinic, it's a deliberate act of hurting yourself. And sometimes that can mean you want to die, and often that isn't because you want to die, but it is a way of coping.   Lucy: So, it sounds like a bit of a spectrum of experience, actually.   Lucy T: Yes. And I think when people come to the clinic, it's starting to cause problems. So, it might be that we all occasionally do things that actually aren't great for us, but it doesn't necessarily cause a problem in our everyday lives.   When it's becoming more it's affecting functioning or it's starting to affect relationships, or work or jobs or school, or when people are concerned about others, that's usually when they come to the clinic.   Lucy: For Jane, self-harm was first around for her when she was a teenager. But she didn't actually get help until her early 20s.   Jane: My name is Jane, I self-harmed from the age of 14.   People spoke about it openly.   Lucy: Like in your class, you mean?  Jane: Just in general, but it was still very looked down upon. I remember being in school, and I had these colourful bits of material over my arms, because I had cut myself. And because they weren't uniform, the teacher made me stand up in front of the class and take them off.   Lucy: That's so grim.   Jane: Yeah, (laughs) I don't think she knew, I don't think that's intent. But that's another thing, had it been talked about the way it is now, that would have probably been the first thing that came to her head, maybe it's that. It doesn't mean that it is, maybe I'm just being defiant and want to wear my rainbow armbands, but I don't think she was aware.   But then, even then, there was no conversation with a counsellor, they told my mum, that was it, but my mum already knew.   Lucy: It's disappointing, though, isn't it? I don't know, it makes me feel sad to think of you as a young girl, not getting help at that point.   Jane: Yeah, but it was just something that I think a lot of kids of did, and a lot of people that I knew did it for different reasons, in different ways.   Lucy: I spoke to Lucy Taylor about the prevalence of self-harm in young people.   Lucy T: I think recent statistics suggest that at least one in 10 young people self-harm at some point. And I suspect it's probably more than that, but that's what we know about.   Lucy: That's an awful lot, actually, isn't it?  Lucy T: Yeah, it is, and I think it's a growing problem. And I think part of the problem is that when you talk to somebody, self-harm is often a very effective way in the short-term of managing a very difficult feeling. It can feel like the emotions which can feel very muddled up and complicated and overwhelming, that actually using the physical act of hurting yourself can reduce that in the short-term.   I think through CBT and through exploration, what people find is that actually, there are more longer-term difficulties that get associated with it, and it's not helping them to move forwards in their life and to manage those emotions. So, part of the initial stages would be figuring out what the pros and cons might be of self-harm.   Lucy: I guess they might be different in the long-term and in the short-term.   Lucy T: Absolutely, yes. And also, different situations might have different triggers, might have different functions for the young person. It's really getting them to be very good at taking a step back and recognising what they're doing, rather than just launching straight into it. So, giving them a little bit of a choice point.   Often, people aren't brilliant or don't have great skills in managing difficult emotions. So, part of CBT would be to help introduce and offer them skills and strategies to test out, to deal with emotions in a maybe less harmful way.   Lucy: For Jane, it was a bit later on in her early 20s that she found herself suddenly struggling again.   Jane: I didn't really see any big issues within myself until I was about 20 and I started having panic attacks. I had just moved to London from Scotland, and my gran had passed away, and I think a lot just happened that I didn't necessarily deal with. But it took about a year for them to realise that it was anything anxiety-based.   I was given medication for an ear infection, because I told them I was dizzy. I was put on heart monitors. I was given an MRI.   And then, eventually, I did my research, and went to the doctor and said, "Look, I don't feel like I'm having panic attacks, because I can breathe, but from what I've read, that might be what's happening to me." So, they put me in the local CBT programme.   I was eventually diagnosed with panic disorder, which is that you live in a panic attack, it never ends, you wake up and you panic because you're panicking. But you don't know that you're panicking, and you just go like that from day to day to day. And it is exhausting.   Lucy: That's a really long wait to be living in a panic attack. That's a beautiful description of it.   And so, it was anxiety that had brought you to the CBT pathway. But then, you were talking about self-harm in that therapy as well, is that right?  Jane: Absolutely. I think everybody has different kinds of panic attacks, but mine were all-consuming, all the time.   And I think self-harm is something that is a way to control your feelings. And so, it's very, very easy to slip into, I had stopped for years. And then, when that all happened, I just slipped right back into it. Because it was a way for me to feel something and know why I was feeling it, and know that I was doing it, and know that I could understand it.   I think the good thing about CBT is they let you come to your own conclusions. They're more trying to get you to understand your feelings and find a way to break a cycle. And to disassociate the feelings of panic and anxiety and sadness and depression and self-harm and all those things… Especially with self-harm, you do relate it to feeling good, no part of it is good, but at the time it makes you feel good, which is awful, but when you're desperate…   Lucy: Really understandable though as well. There's a reason for doing it, isn't there?  Jane: Absolutely.   Lucy: Lucy agreed the reasons for self-harm are very individualised.   Lucy T: There's numerous different reasons why people might self-harm. What people have said in the past is sometimes it's a way of managing difficult emotions. Sometimes it's a result of having had quite a difficult traumatic time in the past. Sometimes it might be about feeling nothing, feeling numb and wanting to feel something.   And I think it's really important to understand and help the young person to think through why they might be self-harming.   So, part of the initial stages of CBT would be thinking with maybe some education around why other people self-harm. Normalising self-harm, not that it's acceptable and a great way of coping, but actually there's a lot of people out there who are self-harming.   Lucy: And what sort of thing happens in the clinic? What does cognitive behavioural therapy for self-harm look like?   Lucy T: Well, generally, I would be very interested first of all in whether the young person, as I mostly work with young people, whether the person is wanting to come or feeling that they are being slightly pushed into coming through a caring adult often.   So, at first, it would be just getting a sense of why the person feels that they're here. Getting to know them, hopefully creating an atmosphere that's safe and confidential.   And then, thinking with them about what they might want to be different in their lives. We would work together to meet a young person or a person's goals. So, that might be that they come in and they're clear that they want to stop self-harming. Or that they come in and they want to feel better and to feel happier or manage situations differently.   So, the first session would be about exploring what's brought them here. If it is a bit of a case of they are mixed about being here or someone's brought them here then we would spend some time thinking about motivation.   It's important when you're coming to CBT that you feel you want to make that change, even if it's a very small part of you that wants to make that change. And then, think through, particularly with self-harm, what the triggers are for self-harm.   Lucy: I asked Jane about whether she had been motivated to tackle self-harm or whether she'd wanted that to be left alone.   Jane: I think at first, because my panic attacks were I couldn't go outside, I couldn't take the bin out, I couldn't go to the shop. I'm a girl in my 20s and I've just moved to London and I can't go out with my friends. My mum has to take me places.   I just felt extremely dizzy, I thought I was going to faint all the time. I thought I was going to be sick, I thought I was dying. I had really bad intrusive thoughts, so I would be like, "What if I go outside and what if I'm crossing a road and what if a bus hits me?" And I would see the bus hitting me, so I just didn't. And then, as soon as you start not going outside, it's very, very easy to get stuck. Really easy.   So, I think initially it was definitely more for that. But that's again the good thing about CBT, is they connect the dots, well they let you connect the dots. And you're able to see that your feelings and emotions especially with self-harm never really go away. And it's more about controlling them, which was really, really important, I think for me, anyway.   Lucy: Here's Lucy talking me through the idea of maintaining factors, things that inadvertently keep a problem going and how she tends to formulate self-harm with young people that she works with.   Lucy T: The other thing that we know can happen with self-harm is that it tends to be maintained, it tends to keep going when there are other problems going on. So, for example, if someone's very low in mood or depressed, or they're anxious or they have anger problems or relationship problems, CBT focuses on the things that might be maintaining the self-harm for that person.   And we talk in CBT language about formulation, which is a full understanding of the person themselves. So, why are they in this position at this point in time? So, what early experiences might have led to that? What are their beliefs about the world and themselves and others? What might have triggered this episode or the use of self-harm? And what keeps it going? And so, a full understanding of the person, to be able to then start saying, "What do we need to do?"   Lucy: That's really hard to do if you're stressed about something, actually, isn't it?  Lucy T: Yeah. So, what we know about CBT is that for all of us, the way we interact with the world is influenced by our thoughts and our thoughts influence our feelings and our feelings influence how we behave. And they all work on each other, so the thought/feeling/behaviour link is really important in CBT.   What you're doing in CBT is highlighting where these beliefs and thoughts are and what they might be. And having a look at them and checking them for how real they are, testing them out. Is it just a habit that somebody tends to think like that because of stuff that happened a long time ago? And giving them ways and tools to challenge or let go of some of these unhelpful thoughts.   Let's say somebody feels very anxious about social situations and tends to avoid social situations. And then, when they get home, they might feel very ashamed or self-critical about that, and that might lead to self-harm.   So, one of the behaviours you might work on if that's your formulation, that's your understanding is how to manage those anxious situations. So that you can instead of avoiding, you can start to learn ways to manage those situations.   So, the behaviour might be what we call exposure, so starting with something that is easy-ish to do, and then moving up towards things that are harder.   What we know about anxiety for example is that if you avoid, your brain starts to develop a link that actually it's dangerous and you can't do it. So, by exposure therapy, which is facing the fear in a staged way, you're unlearning that, so the anxiety doesn't stop you doing things. So, that would be an example of a behaviour.   Lucy: Now, Lucy wasn't Jane's therapist, but Jane had this type of exposure as part of her treatment for anxiety, too.   Jane: I was given really little tasks, and even the routine of 'I have to leave the house once a week' was so helpful. And my mum came with me the first couple of times, then she said, "Okay, next week get your mum to walk you halfway. And then, get her to leave you at the station, and then just come by yourself."   And as I did it more and more, I would have moments of oh my god, I'm outside, I'm just on my own, and it was still terrifying, but I was doing it.   I almost had to train myself to be a person again, see, this is the thing for me anyway, it was never me sitting with her and her going, "Well, what makes you feel good? Maybe do that instead."   Lucy: That'd be quite annoying, actually.   Jane: Yeah, because it's like obviously I would love to, but that's not how it works. But it was more her trying to get me to understand why I was thinking about self-harm in the first place, and before I even got to that, how to redirect my thought pattern. And then I obviously had to decide something I would do instead. And you do replace it, I went through a stage where every time I thought about self-harming, I would go make a cup of tea.   But I was like well, it's five minutes where I'm going to go and do something for myself, I'm going to stand there, I'm going to drink my tea, and then see how I feel. And it worked. Not forever, but it's just having little things to do before. Because once you're in that mindset, nothing is changing, nothing is going to change your mind. There's full intention to do it, yeah, because like I say, once you're set on doing it, you can't get it out of your head and until you do it, it's not going to go away, for me anyway.   Lucy: So, CBT offers quite a few different strategies to help with some of the different things that can keep self-harm around or can trigger it.   If someone's feeling low and finding it hard to work out how to get out of certain dilemmas, then problem solving skills or concentrating on doing small things that make them feel better might be helpful. If someone's feeling anxious, like Jane described, then gradually testing out feared beliefs might help.   Having some alternatives to self-harm is also really important, we all have coping strategies we use to manage big feelings. Some of them more or less helpful than others. Retail therapy, a glass of wine, having a shout, imagine if someone just told you that you had to stop using whatever your coping strategy for stressful situations is and offered you nothing to use in return.   Lucy had lots of ideas or alternatives to self-harm. Again, different ones work for different people.   Lucy T: Something that's really important is to recognise when that emotion is going up and have some strategies and skills to bring it down, so that the part of our brain that we want to engage which is our thinking brain can be re-activated, which goes offline if you like when we're feeling overstressed.   The other thing that comes up with self-harm is that self-harm can often be triggered by social situations, so that might be an argument with a friend, an argument with Mum, feeling left out, for example. So, we know that social situations can trigger self-harm.   And some of the problems that people face is being able to get their needs met effectively with other people. So, some people might resort to being quite aggressive and angry and pushing people away, whereas others might be a bit more passive and just hold it in themselves.   So, one of the things that we think is really important is teaching the skill of being assertive, so being able to – without being aggressive – get your needs met, or say no to somebody or problem solve a situation where you've fallen out with someone.   So, we might focus on someone's social network and thinking about who's supportive, who's not supportive, how do you deal with situations that are difficult? How do you deal with arguments? Are there other ways you could manage that difficult feeling, like being assertive? And not just punishing yourself or hurting yourself because you're feeling it.   Another example of an alternative to self-harm is if a young person or a person is saying that they feel particularly angry, and self-harm manages that anger.   You might think with them about other ways, what could they do which would manage that anger, might that be writing down their thoughts and ripping it up? Or setting fire to a piece of paper with their thoughts on it? Or punching a pillow? Or screaming in the back garden? Something that feels like it might be a way to deal with their anger behaviourally to see whether there's other ways of dealing with that that don't hurt yourself.   Some people, if they feel that for example the sight of blood is soothing, then some people feel that if they draw red or they draw red on their arm, that that might be a way of recreating that sensation without again hurting yourself.   The other thing is we know that self-harm is hurting our bodies. One of the strategies that we think about is having a little bit more self-compassion, and thinking about looking after yourself a bit more, which may be difficult for some people because of what's happened to them or because they've never learnt how to do that. So, helping them to learn to self-soothe, and that might be instead of cutting, rubbing cream into your arm. Or it might be making sure that you're increasing the pleasure and fun things in your day, so that you're feeling a little bit happier about yourself and looking after that side of things.   Lucy: Earlier on, we heard about the thought/behaviour/feeling link. Sometimes the thoughts that we have are related to experiences we've had back in our past, or more recent experiences.   Lucy T: What we also know about thoughts is that how we interpret and think about events can be influenced by our previous experience, our beliefs, our personality. And sometimes in CBT you might go down that route with a person to understand where this might have come from.   Lucy: For Jane, grief over the loss of her gran was really important.   Jane: My gran dying was a massive thing for me. And I remember maybe my third session she said, "If your gran was here right now, what would you say?" And I was like, "I don't know." And she was like, "No, but if she's sitting here right now with us, would you tell her you miss her? Would you tell her…?" And I just started crying and I hadn't really cried about it. I had at the funeral, but I'd never really acknowledged that that was a part of it.   And I think something that I got from therapy was understanding that those thoughts are never going to go away. And when we talk about triggers, such a relevant statement, because anything can trigger you. And mine was a big life thing, but it doesn't have to be. I've been triggered by little things sometimes that have just sent me on a spiral. I've had big life events that I've actually dealt with really well and not really thought about. I think it's just something that's always there.   Lucy: Lucy told me about the evidence base for CBT.   Lucy T: Well, we've got a lot of evidence base with adults that CBT is more effective than nothing or other treatments. However, we've got less data for adolescents but that is about really not having as many studies that we can look at.   What we do know is that a lot of these strategies that are used with adults that I've talked a bit about, like challenging thoughts, managing some of the maintaining factors, the depression or the anxiety that might be fuelling the self-harm, from studies that we've got, we know work well with adolescents. The problem is we haven't got lots and lots of studies at this stage. But I think we're hoping that that will come. But reviews of the literature suggest that it's a definitely worthwhile treatment to try and to give a go to. And the NICE recommendation is to use CBT for self-harm is a recommendation.   Lucy: That's the government guidelines for what works best?   Lucy T: Yes, so it stands for the National Institute of Clinical Excellence. There's a body of people who look at the evidence base that we've got and make suggestions to therapists and teams about what we should be aiming for, it's a guideline. But actually, it's quite encouraging that we know that we're not just making things up. And that actually, we're doing something that feels like it's supported.   Lucy: For Jane, it took time, but things changed radically.   Jane: When my 18 sessions ended, I was a lot better and I could go outside.   Lucy: Were you still using self-harm or had that stopped?  Jane: No, that had stopped. But then, after maybe about a month… So what I had done was I joined Open University, because it was something that I could do at home. I explained to them my situation and they said, "We have a class once a week, you don't have to come to it." But the first one I went to I went with my mum, and it was the first time that I openly told people that I had an issue.   I sat at a table with 15 other people who I didn't know and said, "My mum is here because I have really bad anxiety, and so she's just here to help me." And even saying that out loud, I was like, "Wow. I'm not embarrassed of it anymore and I'm not ashamed of it anymore." And that's why it's such a taboo subject because people are so, it's a weakness, and it is.   But talking about it is so difficult, but you just have to own it and be like, "This is a problem for me, and if you're going to judge me on it, then that's a shame for you." So, I did that, and then after I think three weeks I went on my own. Terrifying. I sweated the whole time. I think I went to pee like 95 times (laughs), but I did it. And so, the next time it was a little bit easier.   And then, I went back to therapy because I spiralled very, very quickly.   I think this is another thing is as soon as you start to feel better, you go too far. It's a slow, slow process. And when you try and fill your day with too much, you kind of forget and then it all hits you at once. So, I went back to therapy for another six weeks.   And then, that's when I applied to work in a little juice bar, and I got the job. And then, yeah, that was that. I started working, I was offered a managerial role. And I have stayed in management ever since. And it's hospitality, which is not easy when you're terrified of people.   But it's just funny, because people who know me now would never imagine that I'm someone who would be scared to speak to people.   Lucy: I asked Lucy if she had anything to add.   Lucy T: I think the relationship is very important, when you're working, it's very important that a person trusts you as a therapist. That you are non-judgemental, that you are open with what you're doing, and it really is a joined-up process. And that you're very clear from the beginning that it's their goals, within reason, if you don't think that their goals are helpful to them, then you might have that conversation.   But generally, they're steering where the therapy goes. And that's probably what I quite like about CBT is that you're working as a team. And you are coming with some expertise, if you like, as a therapist about what can work and what we know can work. But actually what you're doing is you're exploring that together.   Lucy: What about what Jane would say to people thinking about having CBT?  Jane: That you're not going to feel judged. That this person is genuinely trying to help you.   I do understand why people don't go to therapy. I think people imagine that you lie on a big black sofa and have someone with a clipboard sit there and ask you if your mum loved you. It's not like that. It's more like this. (Laughs) This is way closer than what I just described.   Lucy: So, just two people having a conversation?  Jane: It's just two people having a conversation. And you can say what you want, and you can not say what you want.   I think the main thing I would have liked to have known beforehand is that it was on me to give the therapist information. Because I almost was quite taken aback at first. Because I was like, "They keep asking me how I feel, and I feel like I'm here because I don't know how I feel." But they can't tell you how you feel, you have to do that on your own. But it's not this big scary thing.   Lucy: That's all for today, huge thanks to Dr Lucy Taylor and to Jane. And thanks so much for listening, thanks also to those of you who have left ratings and reviews on iTunes. It's super nice to hear your comments and see your ratings there. And I think it also helps others to find the podcast, so thanks.   There are links in the show notes for this episode if you want more resources about self-harm, including a web address for YoungMinds and for MindEd, if you're either a younger person yourself or worried about a young person you know.   If you liked this episode you might also be interested in the previous episode we did on DBT for self-harm.   We've got new podcasts planned on CBT for depression, bipolar disorder and perfectionism, so lots more coming soon. And if you have ideas of what you'd like us to cover, just drop me a line at [email protected].     END OF AUDIO     

Striving for achievement has got to be a good thing, right? But what if it starts to get in the way of our happiness? What if the standards we hold ourselves to are unattainable or unrealistic? What if we feel like we'll never measure up?  In this episode, Sam and Professor Roz Shafran speak to Dr Lucy Maddox about CBT for clinical perfectionism - what it is, what it's not, and how it can be useful.  Show Notes and Transcript  Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP For more information here are some resources. Books This is Roz's book on Overcoming Perfectionism https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Perfectionism-scientifically-behavioural-techniques/dp/1845297423 Or for a shorter booklet this is also written by Roz and published by the Oxford Cognitive Therapy Centre https://www.octc.co.uk/product/booklets/changing-perfectionism-2 Other Reading This is a short article on clinical perfectionism by Roz and colleagues https://nopanic.org.uk/perfectionism/ For some free ACT resources from Dr Russ Harris check out his website (Sam talked about ACT) https://thehappinesstrap.com/free-resources/ The bullseye worksheet in these resources is the 4 quadrant image that Sam talks about: https://thehappinesstrap.com/upimages/The_Complete_Happiness_Trap_Worksheets.pdf The clinical perfectionism questionnaire  is on p39 of this article - it is 12 items long and gives you an idea of the sorts of problems that clinical perfectionism can exacerbate. If you are worried speak to your GP: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259530421_The_Clinical_Perfectionism_Questionnaire_Further_evidence_for_two_factors_capturing_perfectionistic_strivings_and_concerns Some worksheets are available here on clinical perfectionism https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/Resources/Looking-After-Yourself/Perfectionism Podcasts Check out other podcast episodes on ACT https://letstalkaboutcbt.libsyn.com/lets-talk-about-cbt-act-episode And compassion focused therapy http://letstalkaboutcbt.libsyn.com/lets-talk-about-cbt-compassion-focussed-therapy-episode-0 Websites For BABCP accredited therapists visit www.cbtregister.co.uk For BABCP visit www.babcp.com Transcript   Lucy: Hi, and welcome to let's talk about CBT with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. This podcast is from the British Association for Cognitive and Behavioural Psychotherapies or BABCP. It's all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can be useful.   In this episode, we'll be finding out about clinical perfectionism, it's a bit of an unusual episode, because clinical perfectionism is not a typical diagnosis. It's a problem which can go alongside many different diagnoses, for example, depression or anxiety.   To understand more, I met with clinical perfectionism expert, Professor Roz Shafran, and Sam, who's experienced CBT for perfectionism. Sam currently studies for a master's in psychology in London. Before this, he worked for a couple of years, and before that studied English at Oxford. Through all of it, he experienced perfectionism-based anxiety, this is where it started.   Sam: So, I think I've always been interested in academics and I know a lot of people aren't. But it meant that at school I enjoyed working hard, but I think the praise I got as a child for doing well became quite addictive. And so, the more I did well, the more I wanted to continue to do well. And then, pressure mounts, and I think I wasn't aware of that as a child.   But suddenly, it wasn't just about doing the best I could in class, but doing the best that could possibly be done, getting full marks. And that's unreasonable, and I think an unhelpful aim. And then, I also felt there was an uglier side of that, which was more comparative, doing better than people around me because I think I found the education system very relative. And it was about being judged against others as well.   And I think while that in itself is stressful, I think what was perhaps most difficult was the way it then grew and eclipsed other aspects of life, resting or doing hobbies, or socialising. Even at a young age was tinged with guilt, or it was in the shadow of the work I could be doing.   Lucy: So, hard to stop?  Sam: Yeah, I think so.   Lucy: How would you describe perfectionism? What does it mean to you?  Sam: So, for me, it's only recently that I've viewed it as a potentially bad thing. I think generally it meant to me doing my best at things and striving to feel devoted to things. And I think certain aspects of that feel quite rewarding and energising to feel motivated is good. And I think a lack of that can feel unsettling or depressive.   But recently, especially through therapy, I've started to relate to the more harmful sides of my perfectionism. And the way it relates to my anxiety, and so I feel it's not just about having high standards, but unreasonably high standards and inflexibly high standards. So, it's not just about trying hard, but needing to try my hardest and needing to do my best. Or a conception of my best that is sometimes beyond what I have the energy or the capacity for and that is really draining.   In different ways I think I've experienced perfectionism, so I think academia and education particularly flares it for a lot of people, because from such a young age we're rated and ranked. I've certainly felt sorted by the way we perform, and I think that even now is being flared up by being back in education.   Lucy: Roz Shafran is professor of translational psychology at the UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health. She's been working in the field of perfectionism for a decade and got interested in it first of all in relation to eating disorders.   Could you start off just by explaining what perfectionism is in a clinical sense? Because it's the sort of thing people sometimes say they have in a job interview maybe. But actually, we're talking about something a bit different, aren't we?  Roz: You will get different answers from different people and different researchers. So, I think many people would view perfectionism as a personality characteristic, it's something that's you're born with, you're a perfectionist, and it has that positive context to it of striving for excellence and trying to do well and an eye for detail that can be very helpful to people. But it's long been recognised it's also got a dysfunctional or unhealthy kind of element to it.   And some researchers think about perfectionism in the interpersonal domain, so perfectionism in relation to other people. But when I was beginning my work with Chris Fairburns, Afra Cooper and the team in Oxford, we were working with people with eating disorders. So, the sort of perfectionism that we were seeing was really very self-driven. And we called it clinical perfectionism because it was the type of perfectionism we were seeing in our clinical practice.   That's not to say that other forms of perfectionism can't also be a clinical problem. But the area we focused on was the clinical perfectionism that was around your own striving for success and achievement, and your own reaction to failure.   And the reason that we put it in a CBT context rather than the personality context, really is because we know that the treatments that are successful have taken that approach. And we wanted to have a treatment that worked, so we wanted to have a formulation and a model in terms of maintaining factors, to give us ideas about where to intervene.   So, we took the same approach to perfectionism that had been taken to bulimia nervosa, that had been taken to panic disorder and we saw it in terms of cognitive behavioural maintaining mechanisms.   Lucy: By cognitive behavioural maintaining mechanisms, Roz just means patterns of thinking or behaviour that inadvertently keep a problem going.   How would you recognise perfectionism that's really causing a problem? What sort of problems do people come with?   Roz: So, sometimes people themselves find it very difficult to recognise and it's other people are telling them that they have a problem with perfectionism. But people do recognise it's interfering with their lives, when we started the idea of being the best at losing weight is actually inherently more problematic than necessarily being the best at work or being the best at sudoku or something like that.   So, the domain in which the perfectionism is expressed is important and can raise alarm bells. But it makes people very unhappy, they don't often come in saying, "I'm a perfectionist." But they come in, they're depressed, they're anxious, they're stressed.   And then, it is the common theme for all of that might be that they have these very high standards for themselves, they constantly feel like they're failing. Nothing they do is ever good enough. They're not sleeping because they're spending so much time on various tasks. And it's just not working for them anymore, even if it did work for them in the past.   Lucy: And is it that the standards are too high? That they're unrealistic or unachievable?   Roz: So, for many people, the standards are not necessarily unrealistic or unachievable, for many they are. But for some, they're not, but it's the striving and the effort that needs to go into them that makes it dysfunctional in that way.   So, we do often have very successful people, the work was started at the University of Oxford our patients were often students or staff members at Oxford. So, objectively, they had reached and attained very high standards, so the dysfunction comes in in terms of the reaction to failure and the importance of it to their self-evaluation.   Lucy: So, something about the amount of effort that goes in and something about the reaction if that standard isn't met.   Roz: So, the central point for us was the way we defined it, clinical perfectionism, is that people's self-worth is overly dependent on striving and achievement of personally demanding standards. And you're not a perfectionist on Monday and Wednesday, it's consistent and persistent and people will strive to achieve those despite adverse consequences.   Lucy: For Sam, despite achieving high academic success, he felt trapped in a myth he'd created for himself.   Sam: (Laughs) I had such a tight grip on how hard I tried at everything. I felt that if I stopped gripping so tightly I wouldn't relax, I would melt, I don't know quite what I imagined. As if I'd just halt completely and become comatose and demotivated, that only by incessant, compulsive striving could I keep a grip on regularity and functionality. And it felt like stepping back from perfectionism could be more of a cliff edge than sitting on the sofa.   Lucy: I can imagine it feeling potentially catastrophic to give it up. But it sounds like that didn't come to pass.   Sam: It surprised me how relaxing and relieving it was to loosen my grip. But also, in a way how little changed. It wasn't like pulling the carpet from under my feet, it was actually just twisting the tap slightly, changing the water temperature, just letting myself off the hook slightly. And that those degrees of forgiveness weren't catastrophic, they didn't make me melt, I just felt I had a little more energy and perspective and optimism about ways to enjoy the things I was doing.   Lucy: So, what does CBT for perfectionism look like? Here's Roz.   Roz: The key part of it is about understanding your perfectionism, so you've got a maintenance model, understanding what's going on. And it's about having some psychoeducation, so many people have beliefs, "The harder I work, the better I'll do." But actually, that's not supported by data, it's not just a linear relationship that goes on exponentially and just carries on.   There's some surveys, so understanding where the benchmark is, beginning to set a more realistic standard in that sense. It's not about lowering standards, I think that's probably the key. It's not about we're going to turn you into a slob. Because then people won't engage, and it doesn't need to be that.   And people value achievement, so it's about how can you achieve your standards realistic or adjusted standards in a way that is less detrimental to you? So, essentially, challenging the belief that this is the best way to go about getting self-esteem and self-worth and to build up other domains.   And so, lots and lots of behavioural experiments to test beliefs, lots of behavioural experiments to try things another way, to get the information about the best way that the person wants to live their life in a more balanced, sustainable way.   Lucy: Could you give an example of a behavioural experiment? Because people might not know what that is.   Roz: So, if you're gathering evidence about different ways of thinking then you want to have personal experience of doing it differently.   So, for example, if someone was a perfectionist in the domain of their work, and they were say a university student. They might have two assignments, and the first assignment might encourage them to really do it like they normally would, but even more. Even more intensely, put every effort in, stay up all night, open up all your 20, 30 PDFs, really strive as you normally would, even more so if possible. And record and rate their predictions about how well they think they would do, but also in terms of their emotional wellbeing, how happy do you think you will be with the result, etc.? Whatever the variables are that are important to them.   And then, we might encourage them the next time when they got an assignment to do it in a different way. And we might even create two different assignments for them, if it was too risky for them to do it with a real university piece of work. And in that, not to do it in an hour or something that's completely unrealistic, but to maybe – based on the survey when they find out how much their peers do – to try to do it in a reasonable amount of time, the same sort of time as their peers, maybe with a little bit extra and see how worried and how anxious they were.   And they predict that they'll be much more worried and much more anxious, because it's not what they want to do. But many times that's not the case. And to compare their marks.   And I would like to say that what always happens is they get a much better mark for the second one than they do for the first, but the reality isn't like that. And sometimes they do get better marks for the first, but they've also got the experience of doing it differently.   And they might say, "Well, I know, maybe I got 95 for the first, but actually with the second I predicted I would get 50, and I got 87. So, there was only a seven-point mark in it, but actually there was eight hours difference in it. So, I've decided that actually it's okay to perhaps do a bit less. I might not get exactly the right mark that I want to get, but I won't be as anxious as I thought, I won't be as low as I thought, and I won't be as tired. And I can go out with my friends. So, on the whole, doing it that way is better for me."   So, that would be an example of a behavioural experiment. And just to emphasise these experiments can't go wrong. Because if they really did very badly in that and they were more anxious and more stressed, then we would work together to find a different way of working or a different pattern that was more helpful to that person.   Lucy: So, this behavioural experiment could apply to all sorts of things, music practice, schoolwork, work reports, you can gather data yourself in what's called a contrast experiment. For example, how do you normally clean your kitchen? Try doing it a bit more one day, a bit less another day, and write down how you feel. Repeat it over seven days. What does the data show in terms of mood, anxiety, what works best for you?   Roz: It is about I think trying things differently and testing your beliefs and testing your predictions about it, in the workplace, in the social domain, information gathering to test your beliefs and find out whether or not they fit with reality or if there is a different, better way for the person.   Lucy: I asked Sam what his experience of CBT was like.   You mentioned having had some cognitive behavioural therapy, is that right? Could you say a bit about what that's been like?  Sam: That was a really interesting experience, and it wasn't quite my first experience of CBT. When I was doing my undergrad, I became very, very anxious about lots of things, but I'm sure compounded by the workload. And about again, wanting to judge myself by those standards. And that was low intensity CBT through IAPT and looked at more generalised anxiety, from the way I thought to the way I breathed.   And actually when I went back for CBT more recently, I thought it would also be dealing with more generalised mood things. But it was my CBT therapist who thought a lot of what I had brought to the space was actually being shaped and driven by perfectionism. For example, I was worried that I was quite energised and motivated and almost manic at certain times, and then quite absent and numb in other times.   And so, it felt by chance, for me that suddenly it became perfection-oriented CBT where we were discussing things through the lens of perfectionism. So, it was me when I was feeling fresh, I would max out my energy, my capacity and do as much as possible to meet all of the demands that I'd set for myself in recent memory.   And then, suddenly, I'd feel unsettled and very troubled by being too tired the next day or perhaps two days later, to do more of the same. And it was suggested to me that I was so troubled by feeling tired because I had so many high standards for myself that I wanted to meet, and I was punishing myself at every turn for not meeting them. And that was made worse when I was tired.   So the image that really stuck with me, which I share with friends now as well is that exerting myself so much in those highs and trying to meet my standards and then continuing to do so when I'm exhausted is like trying to run a race after having run a marathon. We just need more rest than we give ourselves time for, or certainly I feel that way.   Lucy: Yeah, that's a really great metaphor. What sort of standards were you holding yourself to in those times when you're working, is that on university work or other stuff, or a mix?  Sam: I think for me, a lot of it is work based, and maybe just because of my past experiences also I worked in office jobs for a couple of years, and I think certainly the businesses I experienced, it's perhaps not in their best interests to make you feel relaxed and rewarded all the time. Those high standards are useful, but I think it was up to me to draw some boundaries and find some space for myself.   But the funny thing is that perfectionism can spread into all sorts of areas of my life, and I get bounced around from one area to the other, so if I strive to feel my work standards are sated, then the next moment I'll realise with alarm that I've neglected my friends, or I'll get ill because I haven't rested, or I'll feel guilty or incomplete for not having practised my hobbies. And it feels like a constant juggling act to stay satisfied perfectionistically about all of those.   Lucy: Maybe impossible.   Sam: Yeah, I think it is impossible, and that was a really helpful image that my therapist gave me, was I think drawing on ACT, actually.   Lucy: ACT is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, a third wave CBT. If you want to know a bit more about that, have a listen to the earlier podcast episode called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.   Sam: Russ Harris' four quadrants for life, you have work, I certainly feel I have work. But also, my health and leisure and relationships, your family and friends. And what that image of the circle carved into four made me realise is that if I let one expand to more than a quarter, then the others would shrink. And then, I'd feel that shrinkage and feel guilty, and I'd leap to one of the others and grow that out.   And I think it's impossible to have any of them as large as I wanted them to be. And so, actually, it takes a real I don't know, a courageous kindness to let them be slightly smaller, each quadrant, than I want them to be.   Lucy: Were there particular things that you remember talking through in therapy or particular sessions that stick in your head at all?  Sam: This one session that really sticks in my mind that we had, because it was the only time my therapist was a little firm with me, because she felt I was being resistant to the therapy. I was trying to talk about my mood and this and that and various other things I was worried about. And she just put it to me whether I was attached to my perfectionism (laughs) and finding ways not to confront that.   She gave me the myths of perfectionism that if I'm perfectionistic, if I worked to 100% of my capacity, I would do better. And she urged me to question whether that's true or whether actually I'd burn out. And so, that was an important moment for me, because it showed me that the therapy wasn't just a box of tools or a book of information that she'd share with me. It was actually a process where I was going to have to stand up to beliefs and habits that I'd held for so long and kind of do battle with them a bit.   And again, that left me feeling very disarmed, and out in the cold with new ways of being, and that's scary. And I think for me that was very much the value of therapy, it was having a guide through that, that period of unknown.   Lucy: And what things do you try and do a little bit differently now?   Sam: Well, a lot of it is cognitive for me. Some is behavioural but a lot is cognitive, it's letting myself off the hook. It's noticing when I am worrying and criticising myself. It's actually just changing my internal dialogue and saying, again, more compassionate things to myself.   More practically, the quadrant, where you map out work and relationships and health and leisure. And I try to keep track of which ones I've been enlarging, which I've been shrinking, which I'm feeling guilty about, which I can forgive myself about. I find that a really useful tool for remembering the parts of life that might feel nourishing that I've been forgetting.   And purely behaviourally, I try to rest more. I force myself to see friends when I might continue working. Or to stay in, if I'm feeling perfectionistic about socialising, but actually feel rundown.   That said, I feel it's worth saying that I get a lot of it wrong still. And I think I imagined therapy would be an instant cure and you walk out of it a completely changed person. The habits are very much still there, it's just the perspective and the permission that's changed. I'm now much more aware of what I do. And sometimes I lean on old habits, because it's really tiring to try out new habits.   And now that I'm doing a master's for instance, I sometimes have to lean on old ways because I don't have the cognitive space to do the work and manage the trials of life while also trying to manage my own thoughts and behaviour. But I now have the experience of therapy, and the knowledge of those changes when I have experienced them to fall back on or feel can warn me if I need them.   Lucy: I asked Roz what the evidence base is like for CBT for perfectionism.   Roz: So, there have now been randomised controlled trials. And there have been meta-analyses showing that CBT for perfectionism works both on the perfectionism but can also be helpful for other problems like anxiety and depression. So, that's very encouraging.   Our version, Tracy and Sarah and my way of working with perfectionism, but it hasn't been really compared to more of a Hewitt and Flett's way of treating perfectionism, which is more interpersonal domain type of perfectionism. So, they have a treatment, too.   There haven't been many active comparisons, so it's not like you've got CBT for perfectionism against something else active treatment. So, IPT for perfectionism for example, you haven't got those active treatment comparisons. So, a lot of it is against weightless controls. But the data we have are positive and encouraging. And the qualitative feedback is positive, too, even from our online intervention.   We have to increase its access, I think. It's still quite niche and think about how it can be used when people have multiple difficulties. So, for us, if someone has anxiety and depression, given the state of the data you wouldn't say, "Oh well, I think it's perfectionism holding them together. I'm not going to do treatment for depression or treatment for anxiety, I'm going to go straight in with perfectionism." It can be tempting, if your clinical judgement is that's what's linking them.   But for us, I would recommend saying, "You go with your evidence-based treatment for anxiety, you see the impact. If that doesn't work, if you find that perfectionism is a barrier to change, then you come out of the existing protocol, you treat the perfectionism and then you can see what's left and go back in." So, given the state of the research, I would view the perfectionism treatment as something that you do when it's a barrier to change.  Lucy: Has your attitude towards meeting deadlines and that sort of thing changed at all through doing this work on perfectionism?   Roz: I think no, not in terms of my deadlines. But I think that I'm more forgiving of mistakes. And sometimes I use it as an excuse, I say, "Oh I work in perfectionism and it's funny to make mistakes." And I use humour, but everybody does make mistakes. I find it really difficult to use them as learning opportunities immediately. But when my emotional response to the mistake has settled down, then I'm more accepting.   Lucy: Sam calls this kind of self-forgiveness courageous kindness.   Sam: Any opportunity to forgive myself was really hard to do, but actually I think that the nastier side of perfectionism where it's harmful or dysfunctional or that kind of clinical perfectionism is driven by a kind of self-criticism. A self-punishment, if I don't meet those inflexible standards then I feel really low or angry at myself or at the world. And actually, it's hard work and feels quite crunchy to look at myself and say, "You're doing okay, that's fine." Letting myself off the hook.   I think so much of the world makes me feel that self-compassion is lazy or indulgent. And political attitudes or just I think the attitudes we all soak up, I feel that relaxing is a luxury. But the more I think about helping others, which is a much more rewarding aim for me, the more I feel I can't pour from an empty cup. And actually, forgiving myself is a cleaner, deeper kind of energising myself than this kind of slave-driven perfectionism could be.   Lucy: Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to add?   Sam: I think for me, one of the advantages of CBT was that it could be quite clear and theoretical. My therapist showed me a map of the different ways I could fall into perfectionistic traps. So, if I met my high standards then I might raise them, and that rang so true that I'd decide they weren't high enough, that what I'd achieved wasn't that great. Or if I didn't meet the standards, which is more likely, then I'd beat myself up about that and feel low.   Or there's another fork in the road, which is not trying in the first place because it feels safer not to take the risk, that somehow adhering to some strict vision of perfectionism keeps me safe when in fact it keeps me boxed in.   And so, the clarity of that map, that I was given was a really good guide along with lots of other diagrams about the values that I felt and what I wanted to act towards.   I think talking to friends and family and reading and thinking and writing diaries and all of that is really helpful and valuable. But I think for me there was something about the complexity of different angles I could take, voices I could hear meant it was really hard for me to look at myself clearly or focus on one track to drive down.   And actually, almost the simplicity of the perfectionism model I was given in therapy, the beauty of that simple diagram – even if it feels reductive, even if some of it resonates more than others – it gave me something to focus on. And I think sometimes we need a clear path.   Lucy: Yeah, lovely. Thank you so much. That's fantastic.   Thank you to both of my experts, Sam and Professor Roz Shafran.   If you'd like more information on CBT for clinical perfectionism have a look at the show notes where I've put links to lots of the resources that Sam and Roz spoke about. I've also put a link to a questionnaire, if you're worried that you might have clinical perfectionism.   For more on CBT in general and for our register of accredited therapists, check out www.babcp.com. And have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and other problems it can help with like OCD and body dysmorphic disorder.     END OF AUDIO   

How can a talking therapy help with a problem that feels as physical as chronic fatigue syndrome?  Ben Adams talks to Dr Lucy Maddox about overcoming his initial scepticism about CBT and why he's glad he did. Professor Trudie Chalder explains the ideas that cognitive behavioural therapy for chronic fatigue syndrome is based on.    Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP More information is in the the links and books below. Websites For more about BABCP check out: www.babcp.com To find an accredited therapist: http://cbtregisteruk.com NHS Webpage about treatments for CFS: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/treatment/ Books Overcoming Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by Mary Burgess and Trudie Chalder Note At the time of recording all information was accurate. NICE guidelines are currently being reviewed and due for release in 2021   Transcript     Lucy: Hi, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast from the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, or BABCP. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can useful.   In this episode we're going to find out about CBT for chronic fatigue syndrome, also known as myalgic encephalomyelitis or ME. Throughout the podcast you might hear 'chronic fatigue' sometimes used instead of the full name. But it's chronic fatigue syndrome or ME that we're talking about.   I went to a specialist clinic at the Maudsley Hospital in London to meet Ben who's experienced chronic fatigue and its treatment. I was there on the hottest day of the year so the tube was pretty horrific.   Ben: I'm Ben Adams and I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome back in, gosh, 2015 I think it was now.   To give a little bit of a history I was healthy, broadly healthy, in as much as anybody is, until about sort of 2012. Then I became… I had a period of depression, there was difficulties in my personal life and relationships and all sorts of family things. And I think my body sort of chose to break down in some way or stop me a little bit.   And I started feeling very tired, really unwell, my brain wasn't clear. I thought originally it was the depression, but actually I think that morphed into the chronic fatigue. I think one sort of caused the other. And they can go hand in hand quite a lot.   It took me about a year or so – or a bit longer – to actually get the diagnosis of chronic fatigue as opposed to trying to treat depression which wasn't really doing it. Because I wasn't actually that depressed (laughs). My mood was actually fairly good. I was just concerned about why I felt so weak and so feeble all the time.   And, yeah, it had a lot of impacts on me. I missed a lot of work during that time. I was working full-time beforehand, had rarely had any sickness over the last sort of 20 years of work. The odd day off here and there but I had… I mean over about four years or so, I had about 18 months off totally in sections. And when I was at work I was on phased returns and doing short hours and not doing a great deal to be honest.   So I had a really long period of sort of getting worse and worse, trying to get back to work, making myself worse. And I actually felt that each time I've tried to get back to work after a long period of sort of being unwell and being off sick, it would be hard and after a while it would be… it would feel like I was making myself worse. Like the activity, the mental and physical activity of going to work, each time there'd be a sort of a breakdown afterwards and I'm thinking, "God I'm getting worse and worse, that my baseline is getting lower each time of what I can do."   And so it was getting to the point where I was almost housebound when I was at my worst. I think, yeah, I'd had about nine months off sick in my longest sort of period off sick at once. And it felt like it was getting up to the end really.   I'd tried all sorts of things beforehand. I'd had a very short period of CBT at the start of my illness, but that was also a bit sort of to do with depression as well. So maybe it wasn't targeted as well.  And so that didn't work brilliantly and so during those four years I was trying all sorts of remedies that you read on the internet. Vitamins, testosterone, I don't know, everything I could try. And nothing helped. And then eventually I got into the Maudsley Hospital.   Lucy: We'll hear more from Ben and his experience of therapy. At the clinic I also met Trudie Chalder, Professor of CBT at King's College London, and Director of the Persistent Physical Symptoms Research and Treatment service.   I asked Trudie, who's treated lots of people with chronic fatigue, what it means to have the condition.   Trudie: Chronic fatigue syndrome is defined by, obviously, its symptoms. So the primary symptom has to be fatigue, but it's also associated with lots of other physical symptoms such as pain, painful muscles, so myalgia, sleep difficulties, concentration and memory problems to name but a few.   It's also associated with lots of disability. So people who have chronic fatigue symptoms are often unable to carry out normal activities that we all take for granted.   Some people are not able to go to work, even though they would like to. Other people manage to go to work but are not managing much else in the way of social activities or being able to do things at home – the hoovering or washing up or whatever.   So it has a very profound impact on people's lives. There are some people who seem to be managing it reasonably well at one end of the spectrum, and then there are other people at the other end of the spectrum who are very severe, who may be in a wheelchair or may even be bedbound.   Lucy: Before starting the therapy, Ben had reservations about whether it was right for him.   Ben: I was incredibly cynical at the time. I'd been on the internet a lot. I'd been looking for cures, looking for hope for a long time and I was very much of the thought that extra activity, increasing my activity, would make me worse as it seemed to have been doing throughout those phased returns to work.   Lucy: That sounds quite scary actually. If you get worse every time you go back that sounds quite frightening.   Ben: Yes, it was. It was really frightening. And so that was, when Antonia was saying we could have a treatment here and I was like, "Well, I don't want to get any worse and at the moment I'm housebound but I can just about live on my own." And I have friends who would come round and empty the bins for me and things like that and do heavy stuff. But I could sort of potter around my flat and get out occasionally for a little walk.   There was a few emails going back and forth with Antonia at the start. And I was saying sort of, "What guarantees can you give me? I'm really scared." And she said she couldn't really give 100% guarantee that it wouldn't get any worse but she said in all her sort of 10 years of treatment in this field at the Maudsley that none of her patients had ever got significantly worse. A lot have got better to various degrees. So I thought, "Well, weighing it up I'll give it a go."   And so I started treatment with her. I think that was towards the end of 2016.   Lucy: There was something else that concerned Ben before trying CBT which is quite a common concern for people experiencing chronic fatigue.   Ben: I think as a chronic fatigue syndrome sufferer, when you come into the Maudsley Hospital it's a sort of mental health unit. And you're kind of thinking, "Hang on a minute, I feel like I've got really bad flu all the time. Why does somebody want to talk to me about my mind?" Some people get really angry about on the internet. We all know about that.  And I can understand that. You kind of think, "Why are you trying to treat my head when I feel my body's so awful?" And so I think maybe trying to get over the fact that the CBT, even though it's talking therapy, your physical symptoms are there and it's a slightly different way of managing them as opposed to taking a pill.   But it's a hard thing to explain to people who think, "I feel very ill, I need some sort of pill, there's something wrong with me physically. I need a… talking to somebody's not going to help."   Lucy: Yeah, it's a really, I can totally understand how frustrating that must feel if you've got very physical symptoms then you're being asked to come and talk about it.   Ben: Yes.   Lucy: Trudie explained a bit more about this link between physical symptoms and how CBT can affect them.   Trudie: Well I suppose the first thing to say is that the fatigue is not the sort of tiredness that we all feel on a day like this when it's nearly 100 degrees.   Lucy: It's really hot.   Trudie: Yeah. (Laughter)   The fatigue that people are feeling is abnormal. It feels very out of control and it feels extreme. And there's no doubting the fact that the symptoms are real and they're physical. But that real physical symptoms, which will be potentially perpetuated by physiological factors, so hormones and all sorts of different things that are happening in your body, as well as what do you, that those things can be altered by you doing things differently.   Lucy: What is cognitive behavioural therapy for chronic fatigue syndrome? What's it like?   Trudie: Well, cognitive behaviour therapy is a practical approach primarily. It's a talking therapy. And it helps people to reengage with some of the things that they value very highly. And gradually build up their activities over a period of time.   Obviously at the start people feel very daunted about any change. And at the beginning they may feel very sceptical about whether it's going to even work. But obviously with all CBT everything is negotiated with a therapist, so nothing is imposed upon anybody unless they decide that that's what they want for themselves.   And at each session, which is usually an hour long and occurs weekly or fortnightly depending on what the person is able to do, it can be face to face or over the telephone. And at each session the person will discuss any goals that they've set with the therapist and any difficulties that they've had. And then those difficulties can be discussed with the therapist in a problem-solving kind of way.   Lucy: I asked Ben a bit more about his experience of CBT.   Ben: I think I had… let me think, was it about 10 or 11 sessions with her maybe? Every couple of weeks. And so it would be a combination of CBT and discussions of how to increase my activity.   So I think the CBT, it was mainly aimed at how to – not differentiate between physical and mental symptoms – but sort of understand how the body and the mind interact. And stop me thinking that I would necessarily make myself worse by doing physical things.   And that was key. I was terrified that every time I did extra physical activity it was making me worse. And she was saying, actually the opposite, could be okay and actually make me better. But to do that you had to get through the mental barrier, I think, of the perception of my experiences.   Lucy: At some point did you have to start doing more? Or not have to maybe but choose to?   Ben: Yes. I mean, well every session I had, I think they were every two weeks to begin with, we'd sort of set targets.   And so one of the first ones would be just to go out of the flat and sort of walk around the block. And then, and I'd do that every day. And I think that that was the key, one of the key things was doing it consistently, not thinking, "Oh I've done that, I'm exhausted. I need a long rest now. I won't do that tomorrow. I'll give it a few days." To do it every single day, however I felt, and make it a consistent repeating pattern. And it did slowly get easier.   Lucy: That's so hard to do, isn't it? I mean anyone who tries to make a change of any kind, that's really difficult to get that consistency.   Ben: Yes. Yeah, definitely. And it was difficult but I… I think having her to guide me and to meet her every two weeks really helped because there be some times I'd come in and think, "I feel really awful, this isn't getting anywhere. We've made some gains in the first few weeks but now I'm not feeling great. Should I keep going with this? Is it going to hit me hard in a couple of weeks' time and then suddenly I'll be even worse than I was?"   But I think having somebody to guide you through it, to talk to you when you're down or feeling unwell really helped.   Lucy: Trudie described what she often sees happening during a course of CBT.  Trudie: What we tend to see in the beginning is that people become more consistent in what they're doing. So they're less driven by their symptoms, as it were, and they become more in control of their lives. So rather than the symptoms controlling them they become more in control of what they're doing.   So they develop a more consistent approach to things and then their fatigue usually starts to reduce a little bit.   Sometimes things get slightly worse before they get better. But on the whole, if they can stick with it and they're consistent in the way in which they approach things, they do improve.   Lucy: Consistency is really key. Ben gradually increased the amount of activity that he was doing.   Ben: Over the weeks I would extend my exercise, so I'd walk further and further round the block. I'd walk to my local park, Burgess Park.   Initially I'd sort of… (Laughs) I'd have places to stop that I knew so I could, there's benches that I would lie down on, have a bit of a rest, get a bit further. And then make my way back. And then gradually I was getting further and further away from my flat.   And then it was a combination of doing that with taking my fold-up bike. I think you've just seen that earlier.   Lucy: I did just see, very impressive, you cycled on the hottest day that we've had this year. (Laughter)  Ben: I'm in a first floor flat and I used to pick up that bike, about 13 kilos, and I hadn't ridden it for a long time. And I remember the task was, not even to take it down to ride, it was just take it down the front stairs to the ground floor and then take it back up. (Laughs) And it was very heavy and I was very weak. But I did it and then again I did it every day and every day.   And then I got on it and then I cycled round the block, so I have a cycle and a little walk every day. And it's just really building that up until I was able to then return to work to a degree as well.   Lucy: Right, how did that go?   Ben: It was okay. My employer, Transport for London, I'll give them a plug now actually because they sort of looked after me quite well during all this period. I think a lot of other companies after that amount of sickness I'd have been given the heave-ho. But they were very good. And they let me come back on a phased return.   The first week, I think it was one hour a week working from home. So it was the minimum amount of work you could possibly do. And I was doing some sort of very basic admin sort of data entry type stuff. Just to get into the habit again of looking at a screen and typing and getting into that sort of mode and that mindset.   And then gradually again that increased more and more work from home, longer hours, longer hours. And eventually I would come into the office on one day a week. Again gradually I built that up so I'd come in and do longer hours and actually do some work.   Probably about two and a half years ago now I got back up to 21 hours a week. Which was my part-time number of hours. So like a three-day week effectively. I'd been a five-day a week, 35-hour week beforehand, but I'd sort of been moved on to a part-time one as part of trying to make me manage it.   The good thing was I could then actually do that and I have been able to do those hours since then without any illness really.   Lucy: Amazing.   Ben: So it's, yeah, so it's been really good. But it's a long hard slog and… (Laughs)  Lucy: Yeah. Going from seeing you cycling in today and then you talking about sort of being stuck in your flat before it seems so, so different.   Ben: So once I sort of understood how my mind was reacting to the physical symptoms I was experiencing, and then I could then change my actions based on that and start doing more exercise. But in this very regimented sort of safe way that wasn't a sort of a boom and bust I think that happens to a lot of people. They think, "Ooh I'm having a good day, I'll do quite a lot today." And then you feel awful the next day.   It's still there. I know that using excesses of energy is going to hit me hard. And even actually when it's hot like this I think I'm definitely more susceptible to extremes of heat or exercise or temperature or those sorts of things. So I've just got to be a bit more careful. So I'm not cured but I'm a lot better.   Lucy: Yeah.   Trudie talked about boom and bust as well.   Trudie: Sometimes people have inadvertently got into that pattern of doing a lot when they feel very energetic and not doing very much at all when they're very symptomatic. And this is totally understandable. But I suppose it can perpetuate the problem.   So in the first instance we ask, as far as is possible, given the demands of everyday life, that people try to be more consistent in their approach to activities to try and avoid that booming and busting. Which is quite a common thing. I mean people do it with all sorts of different illnesses. But, of course, it does leave even a healthy person feeling exhausted if they go at things like a mad thing. (Laughter) And then collapse with exhaustion. It can be more effective to do things in a more consistent way.   Lucy: I was just thinking we could probably all learn something from that.   Trudie: Yeah. (Laughs) Exactly.   Lucy: As well as regulating activity, Trudie and Ben both agreed that it is helpful to develop a sleep routine.   And is there anything else that you think people should know?   Trudie: Well I think the most important thing is that nothing is forced upon them. Everything is negotiated, it's a talking therapy, so the therapist will be hopefully warm and empathic and understanding. And will really take a problem-solving approach but together with the individual.   And usually things are never simple. So there will be lots of problems along the way and hopefully the therapist would help the person to sort those things out.   And also I think the other thing is that if at first you don't succeed, keep trying. Often it's that life, other life events have got in the way or it's been difficult to be consistent. But I feel sure in terms of having been in this field for more than 30 years that it is possible for people to change and that it's possible to be hopeful.   Lucy: That's great.   I asked Trudie about the evidence base for CBT for chronic fatigue.   Trudie: Well there are lots of studies now carried out in different countries around the world, but in particular the UK and the Netherlands, showing that CBT is an effective treatment in terms of reducing the symptom of fatigue and improving disability. So at the end of treatment people are much better able to carry out their normal lives than they were at the beginning.   Obviously it's not a cure for everybody. And people are often still left with some symptoms. But a lot of people do improve. And there are, as I say, lots of randomised control trials demonstrating its efficacy.   Lucy: To end I asked both Ben and Trudie if they had any last remarks for people who are considering CBT for chronic fatigue.   Ben: It's good in that it's quite focused and practical. I mean I've had a lot of sort of talking therapy in my life for various things over the years. And so I sort of delved into my background and my family and all those sorts of things. And it's always quite interesting. But I think you can sort of go too far with that, dwell too long on that.   And actually I think CBT's a bit more, "Let's get to the nub of the problem and try and sort out your thinking so that you can improve in a more focused way." You generally don't have too many sessions of CBT and it's – it is more practical and more focused and I think that's something that is good actually.   Trudie: I would suggest you go along to the GP and hopefully if your GP is supportive they could potentially refer you to a specialist centre. There are a few around the country but also the IAPT services are now seeing people with chronic fatigue syndrome and chronic fatigue.   Lucy: And IAPT, is that Improving Access to Psychological Therapies services that are nationwide now?   Trudie: Yes. That's right. And they should or could potentially be able to see the person as well. So I think in the first instance go along and talk to somebody about what it entails. And take it from there.   Ben: It definitely helped me. It's not going to cure everybody obviously, but it's certainly a very good and focused way of changing your mindset I think and helping you to think about things. But I know it can be used in all sorts of different illnesses and different ways, particularly where the mind and body sort of overlap. It's been a good experience for me.   Lucy: Oh that's great.   Trudie: I suppose to finish on a note of optimism I would say that the majority of people that I've seen over the years, and it's a long time, have really wanted to change and have demonstrated to me that change is possible.   Lucy: That's great. A hopeful message to end on. Thank you.   A really big thank you to both of my experts there, Ben and Trudie. If you'd like more information on CBT for chronic fatigue have a look at the show notes. There's lots in there.   For more on CBT in general, and for our register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com. And have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and the problems that it can help with. There's one on obsessive compulsive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, psychosis. There's lots there.  That's all for now. Bye.     END OF AUDIO 

How do you talk about something in therapy when all you want to do is avoid thinking about it? And why might it help to be able to tackle it?  Nick Gilbert talks to Dr Lucy Maddox about how he sought help for post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and his therapist, Dr Jen Wild, explains the theory behind the treatment, and dispels some myths about what it's like.  This show includes reference to suicide.   Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Some more sources of information are listed below. Websites For more about BABCP check out: www.babcp.com To find an accredited therapist: http://cbtregisteruk.com NHS Website about treatments for PTSD are described here: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/treatment/ Support for veterans can be found here: https://www.combatstress.org.uk/ Books Overcoming Traumatic Stress by Claudia Herbert Trauma is Really Strange by Steve Haines Jen has a book coming out soon too - watch this space for details.  Transcript Transcript  Lucy: Hi, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. The podcast all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can useful.   In this episode we'll find out about post-traumatic stress disorder, known as PTSD. I went to Oxford to record this episode and apologies in advance for the drilling, there were some building works going on outside where we were recording. We did try recording in the bathroom but it didn't really work.   I met Nick Gilbert who was diagnosed with PTSD in 1990, six years after the event that triggered it. This is his story.   Nick: I'd reached a point where I was sat in my car and had no idea what I was going to do next. I was actually considering ways of ending my life.   So I'm sat in the car considering these things and I phoned my GP who was aware that I'd got issues – got some problems. He put me though to or put me in front of Talking Heads I think it's called. And they phoned me and said would I be prepared to take part in a study. And, quite frankly, I was so desperate at the time, if they've have suggested witchcraft I'd have probably gone along with it.   Lucy: Nick started having CBT in 2012.   Nick: And then I met Dr Jennifer Wild and I don't think it's too much to say that that lady changed my life.   Jen: The people I work with are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and the treatment I'm giving is trauma-focused cognitive behavioural therapy.   Lucy: Jen Wild is a consultant clinical psychologist at the Oxford Centre for Anxiety Disorders and Trauma.   Jen: Post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD as it's commonly known, is a severe stress reaction that can develop after natural disasters like a tsunami, a physical assault, sexual assault, car accidents, really unpleasant events where people flooded with unwanted memories and can't get them out of their head. It's very debilitating, it's very terrifying, it takes up their concentration. They feel very hyperalert.   Lucy: What does hyperalert mean?  Jen: Hyperalert is feeling very on edge, very aware of your surroundings. And I think what happens with PTSD is people's focus of attention shifts. So instead of being very absorbed in their environment or with their work or their family, for example, suddenly people are very focused on something bad could happen, "I could lose my life at any moment. Something might happen to my kids."  So the shift of attention is from being absorbed in the environment to something terrible could happen. And when people are focused on danger they notice danger.  Lucy: It sounds just like it's very scary all of the time.   Jen: It's very scary, it's very unsettling. There are four clusters of symptoms with PTSD.   So the first cluster called the reexperiencing symptoms, and that really means people are reexperiencing the trauma in the form of unwanted memories or nightmares or physical reactions in response to trauma reminders.   The second cluster of symptoms are the avoidance symptoms. So understandably when we've been through something horrendous, we want to push it out of our mind, avoid reminders, avoid people who remind us of the situation, avoid TV programmes that might remind us of the horrible trauma. So the second cluster of symptoms are the avoidance symptoms.  The third cluster of symptoms are what's called, in our language, negative alterations in cognition and mood. That basically means people feel and think more negatively. So they might have thoughts like, "I'm permanently changed for the worse," or "This trauma happened and it's 100% my fault." So they may be excessively blaming themselves.   And then the fourth cluster of symptoms are what we call the hyperarousal symptoms. So that's the sleep problems, the concentration problems, that feeling of being on edge, hyperalert to danger. And that they're usually caused, these hyperarousal symptoms, by the trauma memory, so the memory of the trauma keeps people feeling like danger is just around the corner.   Lucy: This was Nick's experience of PTSD.  Nick: I sometimes burst into tears for no reason. And in my head I know I'm crying and I can't understand why I'm crying and I don't want to cry but I do. I feel angry and frustrated. I have no idea why. Little things upset me a lot. Stupid things.   You know that you shouldn't react in the way that you do but you're almost a spectator. You don't have any control over it. And you try very hard to break out of that but it sometimes is very difficult to do.   It goes after a while. And lots of other things, different reactions to things, triggers you see on TV and things.   And one of the weird things actually is not reacting. The incident that triggered my condition involved climbing down a cliff. For a long time I couldn't even consider looking at a cliff. But now I see it on TV and it doesn't bother me. And that bothers me.   Lucy: That bothers you that it doesn't bother you?   Nick: Yeah. Because does that mean I don't care anymore? Because there was a fatality. Should I feel that way?   For me, I don't know about others, but for me there's a, if you like, survivor guilt. And shame for surviving. And not understanding why I was the one that survived and other didn't. So you almost feel offended on their behalf.   Lucy: Is it right that quite often feelings of shame might come along with it as well?   Jen: People can feel ashamed after their trauma when they start to question what they did during their trauma, if they have thoughts, "I should have acted quicker, I shouldn't have been in that situation, I'm not happy with how I responded in that particular trauma." Then that can lead to feelings of shame.   Of course people can also feel ashamed with trauma like sexual assaults where they felt very violated and very ashamed to talk about what happened. Maybe they were humiliated by their perpetrator and they may internalise the voice of their perpetrator and it may become very difficult to talk about what happened because they think their clinician or their therapist will judge them in the same way.   Lucy: So it sounds like something that's understandably really difficult to seek treatment for actually. What is the treatment like?   Jen: The treatment is very effective. That's the first point to make. And it has a scary title; it's called trauma-focused cognitive behavioural therapy. The therapy is really looking to update the horrible trauma memory.  When we go through something horrendous we're really focused on surviving and we don't always pay attention to information at the time that is really helpful to link to the trauma memory.   So, for example, somebody might have had a horrendous car accident and thought they were going to die at the time. And then when they're reminded of the trauma today they see a car, they get that feeling they're about to die again. They may have unwanted memories coming to mind of the moment just before impact. And then in their mind the memories will stop at the worst moment, the moment before impact, for example.   And then what treatment would do is help to flesh out that memory in a little bit more detail. So we know if somebody's sitting in our office that they have survived the trauma. So we want link that information, "I've survived," to the memory of the car accident.   So by the end of treatment the trauma memory would be so much less threatening and it would be something around, "I've had a car accident, I thought I was going to die, I felt very afraid, I was injured, I now know I have recovered from some of the injuries, I'm safe and I have survived. It's in the past."  And you can see how that new information gives context to the trauma and makes the meaning much less threatening, which is what helps people to feel a lot better.  Lucy: And so does it involve sort of talking through the trauma quite a lot?   Jen: I think the common misconception is that the trauma-focused CBT really is about talking about the trauma a lot. But I've just looked at a case series where I counted the number of times I actually went into the trauma memory in a lot of detail with clients. And in a 12 session treatment I actually went into the trauma memory in a lot of detail in one session. So it is a misconception.   Of course we work with the trauma memory but we're often working with trauma triggers. And that's really breaking the link between the present and what's going on now when the trigger appears to what happened in the past. And that's not really talking through the trauma memory. It's really about, "What's going on now that's different to the past that shows me that I'm safe?"   Lucy: So anyone listening to the podcast who's thinking about having trauma-focused CBT could be quite reassured by that, that it's not every session at all that you're going through the trauma in detail.   Jen: It's not every session that you're going through the trauma in detail and I would say that one of the ways that CBT for PTSD is effective is you're helping to change the meaning of the trauma.   Of course we can't change the facts of what happened. If something horrendous happened, it happened. But we can change how we interpret it and the meaning that we believe it says about ourself or other people or the world. We can update that. And that's why I like to think of the therapy as an updating therapy.   Lucy: And is that kind of how it works? Is that the kind of main way that it changes how people feel, by changing the meaning of what has happened?   Jen: I think there are three ways in which the treatment works. I think one of the most important ways is changing the meaning of what happened so it's less threatening to somebody.   The other way is we help clients to change some of their behaviours that might be increasing their anxiety. For example, if somebody is really worried about being attacked when they're out and about, they might have one or two mobile phones with them. They might have them ready to call the police. And they might be really focused on danger. And, of course, that's going to increase their sense of danger just by having their phones on a quick dial to the police.   So what we would want to do is to go out with people and get them to drop these specific strategies so that their brain discovers that they can walk out and about without having to take extra precautions. So that helps to change their behaviour, reduce anxiety.   And the other area is breaking the link between the present and the past by working with trauma triggers.   And there is actually another area and that is working with the thoughts. This is the meaning more or less that we touched on. And updating the memory. So we update the memory so it no longer stops at the worst moment.   Lucy: What sort of things should people expect if they were coming for CBT for PTSD?   Nick: I think the expectation is a very important thing. You're in so much pain – I don't mean physical pain – that you'll do anything. But some people expect it to be like taking a drug. And that all of a sudden you'll feel better. Well that's not the case. It takes time. And energy. And effort. And pain.   There were times I left Jen's office and I felt like crying. I was so emotional – it's so emotionally charged that I'm absolutely shattered afterwards. Absolutely shattered.   Lucy: Why do you think people put off talking about it?   Nick: Because once you've opened Pandora's Box you can't close it. Once you start the process you can't not do it anymore. It's something you've got to do. You've got to see it through to the end.   Lucy: And did you have to talk through what happened quite a lot? Were there other things you talked about as well or…?   Nick: You talk about lots of aspects of your life. And, yes, you talk about whatever the trigger incident was. And I say a trigger incident for a reason.   In actual fact for many years if I even mentioned it I would tear up. I talked to somebody about it the other day and it was just like any other conversation. Which again amazes me but also shames me because a part of me still feels that I should be suffering on behalf of Annie and because I'm not there's an element of guilt there.   But you see that's the PTSD. That's not me. I've reasoned that. I know what it is. Therefore I can deal with it. I think a striking indication of maturity is when you realise that life isn't fair.   Lucy: I asked Jennifer about what people should expect from CBT for PTSD.  Jen: The treatment's a very active treatment. I would say I try and get out of the office as much as possible with clients because that's where life happens. And we want people to kind of reclaim their life as well.   So in the first session I would be working with people to think about their longer-term goals and we would touch on their goals in every session and making sure that they're working towards them. And picking up activities that they may have dropped because of the trauma.   Lucy: So what sort of places do you go to?   Jen: Well, you might be surprised to hear that we would go back to where the trauma happened. And that is very important for a number of reasons. It helps people to discover that the site has moved on. There's no one still there suffering. That the suffering is over, it's in the past.   It also helps clients to feel that they can cope with it. Often people understandably are incredibly anxious about going back to the site of the trauma but once they're there they can focus on what's different and how it's changed since the time of their trauma. And that really helps to give a sense of movement in terms of their life, but also with the fact that the memory's in the past. It's a quite clear distinction between what's going on now and the memory being in the past.  Lucy: Jen also sometimes uses Google Maps with people so that they can look at the place where they trauma happened online instead of going there in person.   Jen: And if clients have developed anxiety or avoidance about different situations, about shopping, about walking down the road, for example, we would go out and about with them, walk down the road, go to a shop. And really test their beliefs about what they think will happen and then find out what actually happens and the outcome is always good. They usually realise that bad things don't happen when we leave our house and that actually it's safe to do so.   And they also typically experience a boost in mood. So it's good motivation to keep doing those behaviours, like leaving the house, for example.   Lucy: That sounds really important. It sounds like there's potential to make huge change for people's lives there.   Jen: The efficacy of trauma-focused CBT for PTSD is incredible. The majority of patients will recover with treatment. We normally offer up to 12 sessions, but many patients don't need 12 sessions. So they may have a fewer than that.   Lucy: So it's got a really strong evidence base.   Jen: It has the strongest evidence base of any treatments for PTSD. I highly recommend it but I think any of the clients that we treated would highly recommend it as well.   It helps people to reclaim their life and to lead a life that matches their dreams rather than their fears.   Lucy: Nick reclaimed his life in ways he would never have imagined.   Nick: I'm a funeral director now.   Lucy: Are you?   Nick: And I enjoy it immensely. And the reason I do that is because I'm able to help families through a very difficult period. I can understand how they're feeling. And I say to them quite often, when they say, "I'm going to miss them," I say, "Well, for as long as you talk about them they're never not going to be there. They're still alive in your memories. So talk about them. Don't avoid talking about them." Because people do because it might upset grandma. But as long as you talk about somebody they're going to be there.   So I find that extremely helpful for me. And I think for them because I get good responses. People say that I'm good at what I do, etc. But I think I wouldn't be anywhere near as good as I am, dare I say, if I hadn't experienced what I had in the first place.   I know I'm a very different person to the person I was before the incident. And I know again that I'm a different person to the person I was before I went into CBT.   Lucy: It's really striking the image of you in the car that you talked about at the start and now how you're doing a totally different career and you're feeling really good at that and enjoying it and getting really good feedback from people. Could you say just sort of how you feel like you're life has changed from one point to the other?  Nick: At that time I'm pretty certain, it was probably the lowest point in my life post the accident. You can't see any further. But you move on. And then one day you suddenly realise, "Actually life isn't too bad, is it?"   And then you feel guilty because you think, "If I think this will it all go horribly wrong again?" But the reality is you end up in a better place.  Lucy: What do you like about working with PTSD?   Jen: I love working with people who have developed PTSD. I know that it's a problem that people can recover from. It's very common. I know that most people I work with are going to recover with this treatment because it is an effective treatment.  But I also am very passionate about the idea of people reclaiming their life, and possibly going one step further. So it's an opportunity when we go through some horrendous trauma to take a step back and re-evaluate our life, look at our symptoms, get some help and make a choice to lead not just an ordinary life but an extraordinary life. And that's what I love most about this treatment.   Lucy: I asked both Nick and Jen if they had final advice for people thinking of doing the therapy.   Jen: The decision to have treatment is an important one and understandably people put it off. I think it can be more difficult when we're feeling really ashamed about our trauma or the symptoms that we're having to reach out for help.   And I would just like to invite people who have had trauma and are feeling ashamed to take that step and reach out because the treatment is so helpful and there's so much relief from reducing that sense of shame and that can happen within one or two sessions. So I would really encourage people to reach out.   Nick: Well, first of all, if you're suffering with PTSD then I do feel for you. There's almost a brotherhood of it.   Be careful of who you talk to about it. But if somebody is offering you this treatment, then do it, because once you've done it, if it works for you you'll be in a far, far better place. And, to be honest, if it doesn't you're no worse off than you are now.   But if you do it you've got to be committed to it. It's like being on a diet. But you will feel the benefit.   Lucy: What kept you committed to it? How did you stick with it? Because it sounds hard.   Nick: I knew I had to do something because I honestly didn't feel that I would be able to cope much longer and I would probably have taken my life. It was a turning point.  Lucy: That's great. Thanks so much.   Nick: You're very welcome.   Lucy: Thanks to both of my experts, Nick and Jen. If you'd like more information on CBT for post-traumatic stress disorder have a look at the show notes.   For more on CBT in general and for our register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com. And have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and other problems it can help with, including obsessive compulsive disorder and psychosis.    END OF AUDIO   

What are 'intrusive thoughts' (we all have them) and what has CBT for OCD got to do with a polar bear? People sometimes talk about being "a little bit OCD", but the reality of obsessive compulsive disorder is much more difficult than a tendency to line your pens up or be super tidy.  Ashley Fulwood talks to Dr Lucy Maddox about his journey towards recovery from OCD with the help of CBT, and Professor Paul Salkovkis explains how CBT works.   Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Want to know more?  Websites For more about BABCP check out: babcp.com To find an accredited therapist: http://cbtregisteruk.com Ashley's charity, OCD-UK is here, and there is a lot of useful information on their website: https://www.ocduk.org/ And another OCD charity, OCD Action, is here: https://www.ocdaction.org.uk/ Books Break Free From OCD by Fiona Challacombe, Victoria Bream Oldfield and Paul Salkovskis Overcoming OCD by David Veale and Rob Wilson Transcript Lucy: Hi and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. This podcast is all about cognitive behavioral therapy, what it is, what it's not and how it can be useful. Today we concentrate on cognitive behavioral therapy for obsessive compulsive disorder, or OCD.   Before we meet this week's interviewees I'd like you to try really, really hard not to think of a polar bear. Do not imagine a polar bear. What did you notice? Did you see a polar bear in your mind's eye? We'll come back to that later.   For one of this episodes interviews I took a train up to Belper, near Derby to meet with someone who has had personal experience of OCD.   Ashley: My name is Ashley Fulwood and I work for the charity, OCD UK. OCD UK is a charity founded by me and a colleague in 2004. We're completely service user led. So everybody involved in our charity at the moment has been affected by obsessive compulsive disorder, either directly, sufferers like myself, or through a loved one.   But it's been good because through my work the charity is how I've actually made progress with my OCD and I'm now certainly on my recovery journey.   Lucy: Life for Ashley now is really different from how it was at the height of his OCD.   Ashley: I thought I was managing my OCD and it's only years later when I started working with the charity that I realised, actually I wasn't managing my OCD. I was able to go to work and hold a full-time job, so that's why I thought I was managing it, compared to other people. But looking back, it tainted every aspect of my life, so it became a very regimented day. I would get up, go to work, avoid eating or drinking during the day. Obviously as a guy we can urinate without having to touch the toilet, so I could just about do that.   As my workday ended at 6pm, my colleagues who I'd got on brilliantly with, they would all go off to pubs and restaurants and clubs and they would always invite me but I would make excuses because I knew that I'd have to go home and go through my rituals.   So I'd head off home, I'd probably grab a takeaway or something to eat on the way home so that I was ready to use the toilet when I got in. I would use the toilet. By the time I'd finished doing my shower rituals it would be 9:00/10:00 at night, which is more or less time for bed and repeat-repeat-repeat.   Lucy: Ashley is not the only person I spoke to for this podcast. I also spent an afternoon in Oxford speaking to the current president of BABCP board and international expert in cognitive behavioural therapy for OCD.   Paul: I'm Paul Salkovkis, I'm the director of the Oxford Centre for Psychological Health, which includes various bits, but particularly the Oxford Centre for Cognitive Therapy and the Clinical Psychology Training Course.   Lucy: I asked Paul to explain what OCD is.   Paul: OCD is much misunderstood. What it is, is people experiencing really unpleasant intrusive thoughts, things which pop into their head, but also images, impulses or doubts which upset them. And those are the things we call 'obsessions.'   They're things which pop in the head which are unacceptable and then compulsions that are actually related in the sense that they're things that people do to try to prevent bad things from happening. For example, to wash their hands that feel contaminated or say a prayer if they've had some sort of very unacceptable thought. Try to wipe thoughts out and so on. And those are compulsions.   Together they both occur actually in everybody. So everybody experiences occasional upsetting thoughts and do things that perhaps are driven by those kinds of thoughts. The disorder bit is when it interferes with their life and stops you doing things that you want to do. So it's not just the obsessions and compulsions, but it's the interference with life, taking time, distress to the point of torture sometimes. And at its most extreme. This is a life destroying problem.   Lucy: Could you say a little bit more about what sort of intrusive thoughts people might experience?  Paul: Classically obsessional thoughts are often thought of being about contamination and so on. But actually they hit you wherever you're most vulnerable. So if you're a religious person, you tend to have obsessional thoughts, say blasphemous thoughts. Clean people have thoughts about being contaminated. Careful people have thoughts of being careless. People can have thoughts of sexually abusing children, including their own children and so on.   They're the thing which you're most afraid of and then the compulsions are pretty much logically related. There is always a rational link, it's just you need to get it from the perspective of the person who is experiencing those obsessions and compulsions.   Lucy: Right and so the compulsions are kind of to cancel out or neutralise the upsetting thoughts?   Paul: Compulsions in my view divide into two types. There's those which are meant to prevent bad things from happening, so you wash your hands to make sure that you don't pass contamination to other people. And there's others that are meant to undo things. You say a prayer because you had a blasphemous thought and so on. You have an image of your mother dead, so you then try and form an image of her alive.   There's things which are designed to really check whether or not something has happened and then the other things are called restitution, like putting it right.   So they're either meant to forestall it or undo it basically.   Lucy: You said it's only a disorder if it gets in the way of somebody's life. Sometimes people say they feel a little bit OCD or that kind of thing. What would you have to say about that?   Paul: The idea of being a little bit OCD is kind of quite controversial and you get people claiming they're a little bit OCD. OCD is of course a life destroying problem and so to say that your, say your preoccupation with putting things in a straight lines is OCD, is probably unhelpful in terms of the way that we think about things.   That being said, the roots of OCD, as far as I'm concerned, sit in normal behaviour. So I'm a little bit OCD in the sense that I experience intrusive thoughts, which map on very closely to things that are experienced by people with OCD. I absolutely don't have OCD myself though, and I'm not claiming that.   So it's a bit of a tricky one, it's a bit more complicated than it just being insulting to say you're a bit OCD. The way it's often used though is essentially belittling those people who suffer from the problem. And I think it's best avoided really.   Lucy: Is it okay to ask what sort of intrusive thoughts you have?   Paul: Sure. Over the years I had to explain to people that I've worked with, about the normal intrusive thoughts that I have, which are not at all normal.   So I've had thoughts about harm coming to my children, me harming my children, me sexually abusing my children and so on. It sounds horrific stuff. Most people though will have experienced something like this. Perhaps in a fleeting way and they kind of think, oh, there's a funny thought.   Other examples, when you're standing in the tube and you think about either jumping in front of the tube or pushing somebody else, off a cliff. Ideas of being contaminated, of course lots of people have lots of intrusive thoughts about being ill. They notice a blemish on their skin and think it might be the first sign of cancer and so on.   I've had all of those things and I think, well, I know that the majority of other people have something like that and so on. At one level they're every day, they don't terrify me, but for somebody who has OCD, they are hell, they're just torture and they consume the person's life and destroy it. So they're something and nothing, but for the person with OCD, they're a lot more than nothing.   Lucy: I get the one about pushing people down the stairs actually, quite frequently (laughs), promise not to do it! (Laughter)   Now Paul and I were able to have a bit of a laugh there about that intrusive thought that I get, but these thoughts are no laughing matter when they're part of OCD. I asked Ashley to tell me about his experience of OCD and the impact that it had on his life.   Ashley: Yeah, of course. So obsessive compulsive disorder, most people call it OCD. And for me I had intrusive thoughts and fears and worries around germs, around using the toilet. Often it wasn't a case of washing until I saw that I was clean, I would have to feel clean and of course the more you try and feel something, the less certain you become.   And it's the same with any type of OCD, whether it's checking or other parts, the more you try and convince yourself that you're okay, the less certain you become.   My OCD meant that throughout my 20s and 30s effectively I couldn't use the toilet, I couldn't even use my own because I couldn't touch the toilet lid or seat without then having the urge to shower. So it meant I avoided eating and drinking when I was out and about so that I didn't have to use a toilet, and even my own. And when I did use the toilet it then meant two to three hours of shower rituals, on a bad day, five/six hours. Thankfully that was rare, but on average a minimum of 90 minutes was the norm.   So I'd have to wash my left leg, right leg, left arm, right arm, my body, my torso, my genital area, everything had to be cleaned and of course if during that ritual something didn't quite feel right, maybe I'd missed a bit, I'd have to start all over again.   Lucy: It's impossible really to over emphasise how much of an effect OCD can have on somebody's life. Ashley was really candid about some of the things that he's experienced and the impact that they've had on him and also how he came to realise that OCD is what was going on for him.   Ashley: It was actually an episode of Casualty in my mid-20s when they covered a guy with a germ phobia who couldn't go out. And I realised that was actually partly what I was doing for a while, that each time I went out, I'd have to shower when I come back. That's when I realised what I was going through was OCD.   And typically – maybe it's a typical guy thing, I don't know – I didn't actually do anything for another few years because I was too embarrassed to actually bring it up and talk about it. Back then of course there was no internet, so there wasn't really any resources for me to go online and look up what I should do.   So growing up, I didn't really socialise, I didn't have, what most people do in their 20s is go out and have fun. So although I'm conquering my OCD now, possibly as a consequence of my OCD I still find social interaction quite a challenge. I still feel very uncomfortable when I'm in social situations; going into pubs, even just walking into a pub fills me with anxiety.   Because I didn't have a lot of social interaction in my 20s – this is embarrassing to say, but it's part of what OCD does to you – I didn't have girlfriend until I started making recovery, well into my 30s. And as a consequence, I didn't lose my virginity until I was well into my 30s.   That is the factor of obsessive compulsive disorder, that people might recognise the compulsions, the symptoms, the surface, but what they don't realise is, and often why OCD is trivialised is because people don't recognise the fact that the 'D' in OCD stands for disorder.   They don't realise the impact it has on people's lives, whether it be relationships or education, if it's a young person, or careers. And sadly sometimes with tragic consequences, as we know only too well through the work with the charity.   Lucy: Paul also spoke about the huge collateral damage that's done by OCD.   Paul: I've worked throughout my career really with people with very severe and very persistent OCD. I would say that about 20% of what I do is helping people with their OCD and the remainder is helping people with the collateral damage.   Because 40 years on, after you've been washing or checking or neutralising, or whatever, that's taken a massive toll on your life and quite deep grooves have been worn and so on. And people have lost a great deal.   And so a lot of what we do later on with these folks is yes, help them with the OCD but then help them undo some of the harm.   The other thing you see with that is some people, immense grief about what they've lost. And I sometimes feel that very acutely. Sometimes it's both myself and the patient crying about it because it wasn't necessary in the first place.   Now what that says is that firstly, we should continue to help those folk, but we should get in much earlier. The average time between people first having full blown OCD and it interfering with their life, it typically starts age 20; typically people get their first treatment, on average, 32. Which means 12 years of not being helped, the damage that's being done and so on, and that is appalling. That's unbelievable.   Lucy: So what is the treatment like for this problem? What does CBT for OCD look like?  Paul: What should happen is that for CBT for OCD, as for anything else, you should walk in the room and the person should explain who they are, how they'd like to be called, what the interview is about. And then they should sit down and listen to your story.   And I think that's a really important thing because in the end people walk into our room and we kind of expect them to tell us everything about themselves and their really deepest, darkest secrets in some way, or all the things which cause the most pain.   What amazes me is that people do, and I think that's a real privilege as a therapist to get that. But I don't think you have it as a right, I think you have to earn it and you have to show essentially that you can be trusted.   What should happen next then is the person; the therapist should work with the person to find out a little bit about how the problem is affecting them and what form it takes. In OCD, what type of intrusions they have, what their compulsions are, how it impacts their life.   And then go into a really quite specific thing and we're probably a couple of sessions in now. This is not in your first session. What you then do is you then zero in on what actually happens. If you've got OCD, what happened yesterday at 3:00 when you were starting to experience this problem? And then piecing together from a combination of what the person remembers about what was happening yesterday when the obsession was bothering them. And then the expertise of the therapist in understanding roughly how obsessions and compulsions work.   And then reaching this thing we call the 'shared understanding.' Me saying, "Let's you and I sit down together, work out how this works. Is it possible it works this way?" And linking into the person's lifestyle, values, their social situations and so on. Somebody is living in abject poverty or is being bullied or harassed or whatever it is. These are all things that affect it.   The next step is not, "Oh, okay, we'll just use that to treat you." It's, "Lets you and I work together to see how we might be able to change things, to try things out and see if this is true."   Because in OCD, if the thing is that you might be going to harm people, that's your worry, and if that were true, then you should protect people and that's, of course, what people with OCD are often doing. However, if the problem is not that you're harming people, that you're just a lovely person or a kind person or a caring person who is afraid of harming people, well, that has different implications.   And you've got to then work out which of these two alternatives is true and how best to find out, other than test it out. So don't trust me, work with me to find out.   Lucy: That's great. So it's very much something that is done together, it's quite a shared experience and it sounds like you're very collaborative about how you set that up.   Paul: I'd go even further than that. What I think a good CBT therapist does is empower people to choose to change. It is this process of choosing to change. It's not my choice, it's the person I'm working withs choice.   And it's really in that sense, everything we do is self-help with the support of a therapist. And that's probably why self-help without the support of a therapist sometimes works, because people can learn similar things. And often can then implement that. But that's extremely difficult and so having the support of a therapist who can go with you on the journey, I think that's what a good CBT therapist does.   Lucy: And how about Ashley? He's had a few different experiences of therapy and not all of them have been positive.  Ashley: My experience has varied over the years and I'm not going to name any names, but certain therapists have said to me, "I don't understand OCD," which in some respects I respect their honesty, but it didn't exactly fill me with confidence in their ability to treat me.   Other therapists have said to me they don't believe in putting their hand in toilet water, which of course I knew that's what I needed to do to overcome it.   Lucy: In the end Ashley volunteered to be part of an intensive training day for therapists which Paul organised. As part of this day Ashley tried out what it would be like to face his fears of touching the toilet with his hands.   Ashley: I actually became a guinea pig on a CBT therapist training day, and I was happy to do it because I knew that I needed to do it. And I had a lot of anxiety prior to doing it because I knew that I knew that I was going to be doing it a couple of months in advance.   Ironically, because I'd prepared myself well using the CBT techniques I'd learned, the anxiety actually went very quickly, within a matter of minutes.   By doing that exercise… And sometimes people say to me, "Why would you put your hand in toilet water, that's not normal? Nobody, even people without OCD don't do that," and what's important to understand is if we're living at one end of the spectrum, which is the OCD spectrum, we have to go to the anti-OCD end, the opposite end of the spectrum to learn to live in that normal middle ground.   Lucy: Ashley described what happened.   Ashley: There were about four/five other therapists and the professor and myself crowded into this disabled toilet to do the exercise and they were all really encouraging.   And so the professor did it first and he said the brilliant thing which really empowered me, he told me that I didn't actually have to do it if I wasn't ready to do it and I think that was so powerful in that moment.   And being the competitive person that I am with the professor who I know quite well, I was able to take that challenge and I jumped straight in there. And actually I didn't do the exercise right because at first I thought he meant touch the actual inside the toilet bowl.   I did that and felt really pleased with myself and suddenly Paul said to me, "Actually no, what I meant was put your hand in the toilet water." And he did it again, if I remember rightly. So I was a little bit, "Argh, okay, I wasn't expecting that," but I did it.   And I was standing there with wet toilet hands and I'm just going to stand up, obviously you can't see because we're not on camera, but I was actually standing like this. I was standing with my arms away from my body because subconsciously – I wasn't even thinking about it – I guess I didn't want my hands to touch my jacket. I was wearing an expensive jacket that day, so I didn't want to throw it away.   I didn't actually even realise I was doing it, but the therapist recognised it instantly. He didn't ask me a question, he realised what I was doing and he asked permission if he could take my hands and touch my hands. And I said yes, and I realise now what he did. He took my hands and he just rubbed my hands all over his grey curly hair. And again, that was just a powerful thing to do.   And only by speaking afterwards, actually I recognised myself, about two minutes later, I realised why he did that, because I was standing with my hands away from my body. The moment he did that, my anxiety suddenly started to drop and I suddenly started putting my hands on my trousers and on my shirt. It was such a weird feeling because I expected to become really, really anxious.   Lucy: Ashley was really clear that the way that the experiment was set up was really important.   Ashley: Rather than just tell me to do the exercise, they experimented, they gave me the example of how the exercise should be done by doing it first, which was so empowering. I think that's a great example of good therapy.   Something else that people need to remember is that doing the exercise once is fantastic; give yourself a huge pat on the back. But to make recovery stick, to make recovery last, I believe you need to repeat the exercise regularly. In my case I did it daily for about three weeks until the anxiety was literally not even recognisable.   Lucy: The theory that CBT for OCD is based on is very much to do with the meaning that we make of our intrusive thoughts and then the behaviours that we get into doing in response to that meaning. This is where the polar bears come in to.   Paul: What the theory says is that intrusive thoughts occur to everybody, but it's not those thoughts that are the problem, so you don't tackle those thoughts. It's what they mean. And in particular if they mean something bad could happen and you're responsible for either preventing it or you might be responsible for making it happen or whatever, that then motivates the compulsive behaviour.   But the problem is the compulsive behaviour then strengthens the feeling that you're responsible. It also increases the likelihood that you'll have more intrusive thoughts and round it goes in vicious circles.   Much of what we see in cognitive behavior therapy are vicious circles. And that's because in cognitive behavior therapy we're not working with what causes problems because the reality is, we don't know what causes mental health problems. And it's really quite astonishing. We know a few things that make it more likely, but we can't say, "That's the cause," or whatever.   So what we work with is why it is that these problems are so severe. Because everybody gets anxious, but for some people it's more severe, and then why are they so persistent.   Lucy: And trying to minimise those or change the things that are keeping things going.   Paul: Well yes, in OCD one of the things that people experience are ghastly thoughts which are torturing to them and so they try not to think them. But the process of trying not to think them, then actually makes you think it more. The famous, try not to think of polar bears, then you think of polar bears kind of thing.   Most of the things we're seeing in OCD, and actually all other mental health problems, are people doing really sensible things – if you've got an unpleasant thought, try not to think it – which are actually counterproductive.   That's kind of good news because what it says is that at least some of what's going on is that people are trapped in a pattern where if people can fully understand that and then try it out, they might well be able to then get rid of the problem.   Lucy: I asked Paul about the evidence base.   Paul: The evidence base is very clear. In psychological therapy terms CBT is the only show in town. And on average about 50% of people with OCD will completely resolve their obsessional problems with appropriate length and intensity cognitive behaviour therapy.   About 70% of people will show very significant improvement which leaves about 30% of people who are not necessarily improving very much, for whom there are new developments like intensive treatments and so on. And so I think there's some optimism around there.  Lucy: I asked Ashley how things have changed for him.  Ashley: I've come a long way since then. I can use a public toilet; I can use my own toilet without having to shower multiple times. I do a lot of cycling and occasionally you have to use toilets, the backs of trees, where there's no sink to wash my hands and it doesn't bother me and I can do that.   Yeah, I think good therapy can make the world of difference and it's certainly helped me make the progress that I've made.   I certainly am not completely recovered. I've got a little bit of work to do still but certainly there's certain areas of my OCD that I believe in the 'C' word, which is frowned up, 'cured'. I feel confident in saying I've cured certain aspects of my OCD. There's one area that I've not yet tackled and I've just actually referred myself back into therapy to tackle that last part of my OCD.   Lucy: Fantastic. It sounds like you're in such a different situation now to how you describe things being before.   Ashley: Yeah, I mean it's just little things, we shook hands before when we met and all I'd be thinking at one time is, what has that person touched? Have they just been to the toilet? Did they wash their hands? Did they just pat that dog? Did they just pick something up off the floor? So an innocent gesture of shaking hands, there'd be a million thoughts going through my head.   I believe that recovery isn't necessarily the absence of intrusive thoughts or anxiety. I think recovery is the ability to continue with your day, with your activities regardless of intrusive thoughts or anxiety.   Lucy: I asked both Paul and Ashley what they would want to say to anyone experiencing OCD and considering having CBT.   Paul: The advice is absolutely clear. If you think you've got OCD then go and see your GP. If you're lucky enough to be in one of the areas where the improving access to psychological therapies services allows self-referral, you can self-refer.   The other thing is, to start to talk to the people, to your loved ones, the people around you, because this thing about OCD being a secret and all this is important. And people often feel that families won't understand.   My experience is when it's opened up, that people actually do recognise and are more likely to help and support you. And it can be helpful in CBT, for example, to involve family members. OCD is a horrible stealer of lives; it really does destroy people's lives. And I think it's a real mistake to suffer in silence, to not seek help because it can and is helped a great deal by appropriate treatment.   But also that that's very hard work. I'm not suggesting that it's a magic wand that's waved. It's well worthwhile, but in a sense one of the things I say to people when we're starting treatment is this shouldn't be a hobby, this should be a job. If we're working intensively, say let's just do two weeks of beating the OCD and nothing else and that's what you do. That's going to be really, really hard work but not getting better is harder work. So difficult, but do it.   Ashley: It is scary, but if you're ready for it, if you're prepared for it, it's not as scary as you expect. But also I sometimes use the analogy; it's a bit like learning to drive as well. Sometimes people pass the test the first time, but other people need two or even three courses, or more of lessons to pass the test. It's the same with therapy sometimes. You might need more courses, perhaps with a different instructor, different therapist who might be teaching the same principles but in a very different way of working.   Equally as well, there's the saying, you only learn to drive after you past your test and I think it's the same with CBT. As patients sometimes we only really learn the CBT after the end of our therapy when we learn to put it into practice on an everyday basis.   Lucy: And are there other things, apart from CBT, that you found helpful in your recovery process?  Ashley: Yeah, I think understanding the condition is so important. OCD is one of those things where knowledge is power and probably the only other thing to add, or I do want to say is that recovery is possible. We can get better from OCD.   Lucy: That's all for this episode. There's loads of information in the show notes. There's books, there's web links, including links to the BABCP resources on personal stories of people who have had CBT for OCD and also other podcast episodes.   So if you enjoyed this podcast episode, you might want to listen to the very first episode we ever made, which includes two people talking about their experiences of CBT for OCD. Or you might want to listen to episodes on different sorts of problems that CBT can help with, for example, hoarding disorder.   We've also got new episodes coming up about how CBT can help with chronic fatigue syndrome and with post-traumatic stress disorder.   This podcast is brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, or BABCP. For more information about how to find an accredited therapist, check out babcp.com.     END OF AUDIO     

Maggie's flat was so full that the council threatened to clear it out themselves. CBT helped her understand the reasons behind her hoarding disorder and start to let go of some of her possessions.  Maggie and Dr Victoria Bream speak to Dr Lucy Maddox.   Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Want to know more? Some useful resources are included here.  Websites For more about BABCP check out: babcp.com To find an accredited therapist: http://cbtregisteruk.com Hoarding UK's website has resources including support group listings: https://hoardinguk.org/ Centre for Anxiety Disorders and Trauma website: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/depts/psychology/research/researchgroupings/cadat Books Overcoming Hoarding by by Satwant Singh (Author), Margaret Hooper (Author), Colin Jones (Author) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Hoarding-Self-Help-Behavioural-Techniques/dp/1472120051 Transcript     Lucy: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk about CBT, the podcast from the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, BABCP. This podcast is all about CBT. What it is, what it's not and how it can be useful.   In this episode, we're going to find out about hoarding disorder. I speak to someone who has experienced hoarding and the treatment for it and a clinical psychologist who specialises in CBT for hoarding disorder.   Maggie: My name's Maggie and I've been fortunate to have received therapy in a group and individual therapy. So, I would like to be able to share some of my experience that I hope will be of help to people.   Lucy: Could you say a little bit about how things were for you before therapy?  Maggie: Hoarding is how I coped with life because it kept people out and it kept me in, where I didn't have to deal with the outside world. Being alone has always been my comfort zone.   Lucy: So, it kind of kept you from having...   Maggie: Kept things at bay. I saw the outside world and people as the 'other'. The enemy. That's what I've had to deal with. There was a lot of pressure from the borough where I live with the fire risk that hoarding causes.   Lucy: So, you were quite unsure about it to start with?  Maggie: I wasn't happy because I was being challenged and I felt threatened. I had a way of life that suited me.   Lucy: Is it okay to ask what your house was like?  Maggie: It's a council flat that I've had for 18 years, now. It just built up and up. I just didn't try and stop it. I have always seen books as my best friend. I always felt books would be the solution to my problems.   When I retired 13 years ago, I was able to indulge in a lifestyle that I'd always wanted, where I'd just ride around on buses and read what books I want. Go deep into things and study what my hobbies are.   Lucy: It sounds quite nice, actually.   Maggie: Well, it is. It's a selfish life. But family life didn't mean happiness to me and relationships didn't spell happiness. My comfort zone was living life vicariously. Learning about life and people through biographies, books, magazines, rather than going straight in to the physical reality. Which suited me.   Lucy: I'm sure a lot of people can recognise that. There's something very nice about that, isn't there? But it sounds like it was really getting in the way.   Maggie: Well, it doesn't give you deep, ultimate satisfaction. You're always on guard, in a way. When I first started individual therapy, it seemed very threatening. But it isn't threatening, now. It's almost like I can feel creative more instead of not moving beyond that defensive position.   Lucy: We'll hear more about Maggie and her reasons for hoarding later. But first, here's Dr Victoria Bream, clinical psychologist at the Centre for Anxiety Disorders and Trauma and the Maudsley hospital.   Victoria: Hoarding is characterised by a large volume of possessions in the home. Things can sometimes be somewhat organised but generally are in disarray. It can be a mixture of items, often paper, books. Also, food, clothes, bric-a-brac. Things inherited from other people.   All these items are of such a volume that someone's home is difficult for them to use in the way for which the home was designed. So, the bathroom... The bath may be full of clothes. In the kitchen, there might be books all over the worktops. We'd characterise it as hoarding disorder when someone's life is actually impaired and they're experiencing a certain amount of distress from this.   I think everybody has the capacity to form a strong attachment to any item. People with hoarding difficulties, for various reasons – some of which we understand and some of which I think we don't – form that level of attachment to a greater number of objects.   Lucy: Has it made you think about your relationship with possessions differently, doing this work?  Victoria: Oh, constantly. I think that might be one of the things that draws me to it. I really get it, with understanding how possessions can mean so much. My home is far from immaculate and I hang on to all sorts of things for sentimental reasons.   If my children give me a picture that says, "I love you Mummy" on it, in that one second they give it to me, I feel very attached to it. I can't let it go. There's no way I could rip it up and put it in the bin.   I think it's made me think about how we're all kind of battling with these beliefs about possessions. What is it that then tips it over into being something where it becomes a problem that takes on a life of its own.   Lucy: What's CBT for hoarding disorder like? What does it look like?  Victoria: At the moment, the main work we do is based on the work of Gail Steketee and Randy Frost and colleagues in the States. They've been working on things in the last 20, 30 years or so to come up with a CBT model.   They have identified the main beliefs that people have about possessions. So, having an emotional attachment to possessions. Seeing the utility of an object far more so than other people might. So, everything would have a purpose. A yoghurt pot, once the yoghurt has gone, isn't just a container. It could be a plant pot. Also, the intrinsic beauty and aesthetic properties of objects. These things seem to be particularly potent belief systems in people with hoarding problems.   The Steketee and Frost model also acknowledges the influence of past experiences, early experiences, whether there's a familial history of hoarding problems, whether people have experienced a trauma or other kind of life event that might precipitate hoarding in some way.   Also, there's a component of information processing differences. So, that's much more tricky to investigate. There are a couple of papers that do look into that but there's a lot more we need to learn about the way that people handle information and how it affects their ability to order the items they do have, make decisions about the things that they do have in terms of discarding, and then how to carry that plan out.   Lucy: That's really interesting. If I were sitting working at a desk that's really cluttered, say for example... (Laughter) I'm thinking of my desk, which is quite cluttered! That could have an impact on how our attention is?  Victoria: When we're working with people trying to make decisions in their home, sometimes just the volume of stuff around them makes the decision process difficult. Peoples' attentions flip from object to object.   We quite often get people to bring bags of things to the office and say, "You can take it all back home again if you want. But let's try and sort through it while we're here." People are usually quite effective at doing that. Not everybody. But we get people to stick things in the recycling and the bin or take them straight to a charity shop.   Lucy: You mentioned about early experiences sometimes having an effect or an impact, or perhaps it being more likely for someone to have a hoarding disorder. Could you say a tiny bit more about that?  Victoria: Yeah. What's in the literature so far is that, if people have had some family history of hoarding, that might be associated with hoarding themselves. They've just grown up not knowing another way of doing things but to have a lot of clutter. And then often inherit those items into their own home, as well. So, have two houses' worth of stuff in one go.   Sometimes if people have come from very impoverished backgrounds where they haven't had enough when they were growing up, then when they have had the means to buy things and acquire things, it's felt very loaded to keep those items. It would be extremely wasteful to get rid of everything. Then it's working with people to update those beliefs and think, "Is that a helpful idea to have around at the moment?"  Lucy: So, how did Maggie find CBT?  Maggie: We looked at why I was doing this. First of all, the big change for me was being unconditionally accepted because I'd never had that from my parents. It was an emotionally cold upbringing, like some people have.   I think the common element in hoarding is some sort of, I feel, very primal trauma. Where you're not given unconditional love and acceptance, for whatever specific reason. I think that is the basic that you have to feel because every baby really does need unconditional acceptance, otherwise it won't feel love. It's about replacing fear with love. It sounds simple but it's not easy.   Lucy: No. I was going to say, how does that happen? What would I have seen if I was in your therapy sessions? What kinds of things did you do or talk about?  Maggie: Well, we reviewed the week and set an agenda through how things had developed. And looked at what I had or hadn't done. I found it particularly helpful because it helped to ground me. Because I tend to be a bit above it all and beyond it all. I've had to look at those issues. To look at why I don't really want to be here.   I think you have to face your fears realistically and see what can be done about them. I think the only way to deal with them is to deal with things in small amounts. Take a few steps at a time.   Lucy: As part of the therapy, did you have to throw things away? Was that part of it?  Maggie: Yes. Discarding. Which I did resist. I still haven't got rid of all my books and I think, "Yes, I must read this. I must read that." It's working to a system of priorities.   It's quite surprising that things don't always have the effect you think they will. You don't know, until you've done it, whether you've done the right thing or not. I found it quite easy to discard clothes. As I got rid of a lot of books, I found I didn't really miss them.   My clutter was really quite bad. It was all mixed up with clothes, books and food. I've just gradually and slowly had to learn to separate different classes of items. Paperwork... I don't like dealing with paperwork. If you don't get the mundane sorted out so it doesn't support you then that's going to make things even worse. Because you spend so many hours looking for things.   Lucy: Is that what you found was going on before?  Maggie: Yes. Very much. I was being hounded by my housing officer, as well.   Lucy: So, discarding is one of the things that you worked on in the individual work. Were there thoughts that you talked about, as well?  Maggie: Learning to come into... I keep saying, "The outside world" because that is the biggie, with me. That's the bottom line, for me. I belong to several social groups for retired people and I've joined a committee there that I would never have done a year or so ago.   And, for the first time ever, I feel that I would like to help other people. That is a new one, for me. Because I never saw outside myself. Gradually, with the very good therapy I got, I realised that people are more important than books.   Lucy: Victoria told me a bit more about CBT for hoarding.   Victoria: It's often tempting to think that people need a practical solution to the problem. That someone like a support worker will come in and just say, "Right, where do we start?" For a lot of people, it's about unravelling quite a lot of distress and upset. Only then can you actually approach making some decisions to discard the items.   Lucy: I guess because people might just then fill up again with other items?  Victoria: Yes. I think, anecdotally, that's what... I work with the local councils around here. They've all said that they've done that. They call them, "Blitz cleans". They go in. They take everything out. Chuck it all in a skip. Scrub everything. The person whose home it is, if they haven't consented to that, is obviously really upset and unlikely to engage with services in the future, and reaccumulates possessions.   We advise the councils around here to try and encourage a very understanding and psychologically minded attitude towards hoarding problems. As well as going through possessions with people and thinking about, "Do I really need it? Or do I want it?" Trying to get the distinction between the need and the want. This can be really tricky. So, trying to disentangle that very strong emotional attachment to a lot of things.   Also, spending lots of time talking about whether the possessions do actually fulfil the function that people hope that they do. Objects connecting people to their pasts. Do the objects actually do that? Or do they hold someone back from getting on with their life and actually make them feel miserable, sad and less able to take new opportunities?   Lucy: As well as individual cognitive behavioural therapy, Victoria is involved in a really exciting project set up by the local fire brigade, who were worried about local residents who were hoarding and wanted to help.  Victoria holds group sessions at the local fire station using CBT principles. 60 people have attended over the last year. There's often about 15 people in the group.   Victoria: It's been amazing to see the actual support nature of the group. The magic that's worked between the participants of... Someone admitted a couple of weeks ago that they'd blocked their front door. This was a very well-presented person who you wouldn't imagine would be in those circumstances. The other people in the group were so moved that he could say that.   It then made other people sort of say, "Well, actually I've got to the point now where I can't use my bath." This kind of thing. Acknowledging the extent of the difficulty. Just being part of that process of people moving towards thinking, "Well, I'm going to have to face up to this problem."   And describing the possessions that they're keeping to each other in the group. Saying, "Well, can't you give them away?" She was like, "Oh, no. They're too rubbish to give away." The penny dropping then about, "Oh, I can't give them away. And why am I keeping something rubbish for myself?"   Trying to facilitate that group so that people then go home and take action off the back of these insights. Then, when they come back to the group maybe next week or a few weeks later, people take great pleasure in reporting back and saying, "Actually, I did manage to do this."   Lucy: Maggie has attended the group.   Maggie: It's fun.   Lucy: It's fun? Really?  Maggie: I had such a laugh at the last session. It was like, "Carry On Hoarding". (Laughter)  Lucy: It sounds like it's really supportive and light-hearted, in some ways.   Maggie: Yeah. Because I do think you need a sense of humour. If you can laugh at yourself a bit, it puts things more in perspective. There is hope out there.   Lucy: What would you say, if someone is listening to this and they think they might have a bit of a difficulty with hanging on to things for too long or if they're experiencing—like you did—somebody telling them that they need to work on that? What sort of advice would you give?  Maggie: I would say don't listen to people who don't understand what you're going through. It seems to be that one of the problems is other people find it incomprehensible. They don't understand. I think it's a silent neurosis. It's anti-social but it's hidden.   It's very good to meet people who think similarly because there's an instant, unconditional acceptance. You've got the group support. People will listen to you and they will give you advice that will help you because they're in a similar position.   It has changed, albeit slowly. Sometimes it's two steps forward, one step back. What I've learned is that I have to be compassionate to myself and realise it will take time.   Lucy: I asked Victoria about the evidence base for CBT for hoarding.   Victoria: Well, it's still the only treatment, really, that's recommended for hoarding problems. The way I always try and explain it when I'm talking to people in the wider public is... In the Centre for Anxieties and Trauma here, if someone came in with a phobia, a panic problem, OCD or PTSD, we'd be pretty confident at the beginning that someone would walk away with quite significant change in their distress and their symptoms. And, with any luck, actually losing the diagnosis entirely or certainly to be well along the road to that. Whereas with hoarding problems, we're definitely not in that position.   Even the really wonderful studies that have taken place – Gail Steketee, Randy Frost and colleagues – are still looking at 50-70% of people reporting some improvement. But not radical improvement either, necessarily.   Studies are coming out a lot at the moment, since the reclassification as a separate disorder. I think there's going to be some nice updates to the literature continuing in the next year or two.   Lucy: It's a field that's still quite exciting, actually, isn't it? It's quite emerging and ongoing.   Victoria: Yeah. And that is what I would say to anybody who has got an interest in hoarding. It's still something that a lot of services don't offer treatment for. It is in the DSM, now, as a separate disorder. It does cause people a lot of distress and upset. It perpetuates all sorts of other problems.   We know from epidemiological data that people with hoarding problems are more likely to have a physical problem, like heart condition or diabetes. So, there's this big public health disaster, in a way, associated with hoarding problems. But it's still a problem that everybody is preferring not to talk about.   What I think we don't understand at the moment is what's normal behaviour. What do most people do, in terms of keeping possessions? How do people decide how to have a clear-out and how do they do it? I'm hoping, if we could shed some light on those processes amongst people who don't have a problem with an accumulation of possessions, it might help us to further understand what happens when people do have difficulties discarding.   Lucy: Are you doing research into that at the moment?  Victoria: We're just working out a research question on that at the moment, which we think would be quite an interesting and a fun one to do. In terms of just being able to get it out there in the general population and say, "Well, how do you do it?" Like you say, it is sort of in the public eye at the moment. How we cope with our possessions.   What we know is that, even within people who acquire a lot of things and who enjoy shopping, not all of them keep all those possessions. So, quite a big percentage of people who acquire a lot will then take those items back, sell them on or give them away or whatever.   Whereas we know for hoarding... And it's a distinct thing. Also, people aren't always buying things, they're picking stuff up from the street. Picking stuff up out of bins. They are very good at knowing where free things are and accumulating things in that way.   Lucy: I spoke to Maggie about how she thinks hoarding and decluttering is talked about in the media.   Maggie: What I've noticed on television programmes, probably for entertainment purposes, is they tend to choose people with a fair amount of space. Probably because it's not so boring watching it. I don't know. It's the same with their financial problem programmes. They'll always have people who are on a middle-class income. "How to cut down."   But they never deal with the grass-roots people on benefits or people in small places who are finding it difficult to cope. So, I feel those of us who come from that sort of background have a less visible impact.   Lucy: And actually, it's really important, isn't it? There should be more about that. Thank you so much.   Maggie: Good luck, everybody.   Lucy: That's great. Is there anything else you'd want to say to people?  Maggie: Just don't be afraid to ask for help. Because there is hope out there.   Lucy: If you'd like more information on CBT for hoarding, have a look at the show notes. For more on CBT in general, and for our register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com. And have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and the problems it can help with.    END OF AUDIO       

Hearing voices is much more common than used to be thought, but what if they're cruel voices that seem to try to stop you from living your life?  Chris Shoulder talks to Dr Lucy Maddox about how he uses CBT techniques to manage his experience of voices and Dr Emmanuelle Peters explains the theory behind the treatment.    Show Notes and Transcript Here are some resources if you'd like to find out more information.  Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Websites If you'd like to know more about BABCP check out the website: http://babcp.com If you want to find an accredited therapist look here: http://www.cbtregisteruk.com/ Chris has also written about his experience of CBT on the BABCP website:  https://www.babcp.com/Public/Personal-Accounts/Chris-S.aspx Hearing Voices Network is an organisation providing a network for people who hear voices. https://www.hearing-voices.org/tag/voice-collective/ PICuP Clinic where Emmanuelle and Chris work is here: https://www.national.slam.nhs.uk/services/adult-services/picup/ NICE guidelines for service users/relatives are here: www.nice.org.uk UK based organisation the Paranoia Network is here: www.asylumonline.net/paranoianetwork.htm Mad Pride campaigns against misunderstanding and discrimination experienced by people who are seen as 'mad' or mentally ill www.madpride.org.uk This website offers an alternative perspective, practical advice and email support to people who are interested in exploring the idea of spiritual crisis. There are some local groups, for example in London. www.SpiritualCrisisNetwork.org.uk,   Books and articles Overcoming Paranoid and Suspicious Thoughts. Research suggests that 20–30 per cent of people in the UK frequently have paranoid thoughts. This is a practical self-help guide. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Paranoid-Suspicious-Thoughts-Books/dp/1845292197 Overcoming distressing voices, Mark Hayward, Clara Strauss, and David Kingdon, 2012, London: Constable and Robinson. A self-help guide based on a cognitive behavioural approach. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Distressing-Voices-Books/dp/1780330847 For an article about CBT for psychosis by Lucy click here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/sifting-the-evidence/2014/may/20/cbt-psychosis-cognitive-behavioural-therapy-voices   Other media A History of Delusions - radio 4 series by Dr Dan Freeman https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001d95/episodes/player Voice hearer and psychologist Eleanor Longden talks about her experiences in this TED talk. https://www.ted.com/talks/eleanor_longden_the_voices_in_my_head   Credits Editing consultation from Eliza Lomas Music by Gabe Stebbing Image by Justin Lynham via Flikr Creative Commons Produced by Lucy Maddox for BABCP   Transcript Lucy: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast from the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, BABCP. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not, and how it can useful.   In this episode we're going to find out about CBT for psychosis.   I went to a specialist clinic in London called the PICuP Clinic which stands for Psychological Interventions Clinic for Outpatients with Psychosis.   I spoke to Chris who works there and who's experienced psychosis himself and the treatment for it.   Chris: I am Chris Shoulder and I manage the peer support network. I get together with people as well and we sort of kind of try to see what we can do for people who are waiting for the therapy, and with people who've had their therapy and get them together. A bit of mentoring kind of thing really.   But it's also that they can speak to somebody who actually knows that the therapy's about and they've been through the whole process. And they can allay any fears that anybody might have.   Lucy: Oh that sounds great. So it's perfect to be speaking to you because this podcast is trying to sort of help explain to people what CBT for different sorts of problems is like. Some people might not know what psychosis is actually, and it's quite a kind of technical word. Would you give your definition of it?   Chris: Well, psychosis I think is like the umbrella term for lots of different things. You may be experiencing kind of things that are not considered the norm, whatever I guess what the norm is. You might feel like you're being watched or as one person I worked with thinks they're being "surveilled" as she puts it. Or you might be hearing voices. You just don't feel right. You feel kind of maybe that you're being victimised or there's people talking about you or people can read your mind.   I mean there's so many kind of anomalous things that make up what psychosis is. And then apart from that you might feel really anxious. You feel depressed. You feel confused as well with it.   And it's quite a baffling thing to experience and to kind of describe because there's a myriad of things that go with psychosis. Yeah.   Lucy: For people who aren't sure what a dissociative episode sort of means or kind of feels like, would you mind explaining a bit what it's like?   Chris: Yeah. It's this kind of feeling that you become detached from the environment around you. And I'd feel sometimes that I was almost like watching myself. It was like, I always describe it like being the star of the film and watching the film at the same time.   You feel like the solid objects, maybe I'm quite solid and everything's kind of like knocked slightly sideways. I always have difficulty describing it because it's very abstract but it's very terrifying when you don't know what it is.   And I still occasionally have them but now I'm kind of like twiddle my thumbs. I'm like, "Do-do-do-do-do, get on with it." And carry on because I'm in charge of it. Even though it can come on randomly, I am in control of these things now, I feel.   I mean I think the first time I had it I thought… I felt like there was another entity inside my body. That's how strange it feels and it's very disconcerting. It's horrific actually the feeling, it's terrifying.   But with some quality CBT you can take it on head on and you can think, "Right, well I'm not having it, it might happen still but I'm going to own it and I'm going to be me." And I let it kind of wash over me now if it happens occasionally and that's it. It's gone. I feel tired afterwards because it's quite an exhausting experience. But afterwards that's it and I get on with whatever I was doing at the time.   Lucy: Wow. It sounds really intense actually and very frightening and, yeah, so to be able to kind of ride that instead.   Chris: That's a really good kind of way to describe it. You're riding it. When it first happened it was like being on the top of a rollercoaster and you're peaking at the top and you never quite go over the edge. It's this feeling of, "Urgh, uh, uh." And I could feel it. It's like physical in the back of my head.   And then I got to the point where I could actually tell when they were going to happen by this feeling in the back of my head. And I'd be like, "Okey dokey, right," you know like? "Buckle up, it's going to happen in the next day or two." It's still a little bit like that but it's very, very rare now that I have it. But I manage it.   I think it's about talking about what like a healthy brain is. It's whatever's healthy to you I think and what you're managing, what you can live with and what you deal with properly and feel safe about.   And I feel great. I feel like a changed person because I was absolutely so chronically ill with a various array of mental health issues. I feel great now though.   Lucy: Yeah, you look great.   Chris: Yeah, thank you.   Lucy: Really spunky.   Chris: Yeah, I feel it. (Laughter)  Lucy: I also spoke to Dr Emmanuelle Peters, clinical academic psychologist and director of the PICuP Clinic.   I asked Emmanuelle how common it was to have unusual experiences like those that Chris describes.   Emmanuelle: So more people have anomalous experiences such as hearing voices in the general population than you might think. Most of them do not go onto develop psychosis. And for many people they have these experiences without actually causing distress. And that's very important to know because it's not necessarily the nature of the experiences which is abnormal. But it's more the fact that they lead to distress that as therapists we need to take into account.   The fact that we know that people have experiences without distress means that people that we see can actually learn to perhaps deal with their experiences differently or think their experiences differently if they want. So we're not about just necessarily eradicating these experiences because people in the general population do have them and can live with them and be perfectly healthy.   Lucy: Great. So it's more about their kind of the meaning making, the sense that people make of their experiences rather than necessarily getting rid of them?   Emmanuelle: Yes, absolutely. So we don't aim to change anybody's view necessarily. We don't aim to change their view of the world. We don't aim to necessarily get rid of voices although for some people that's what they'd like. But what we aim to do is help people to cope with them, to think about them slightly differently, to learn to have a different relationship with them. And basically to try and reach the valued goals that they have and decrease the amount of distress that these experiences cause in their daily life.   Lucy: Chris told me more about what hearing voices is like for him.   Chris: The voices when they started, they were in – it was kind of in my head. However, my head felt the size of the TARDIS. It was like huge. It felt like it had expanded.   A lot of people say the same thing. They're down on you and they kind of say, "You're useless, you'll never amount to anything," or mine used to, I'd be doing something and they would say like, "You were trying to put the kettle on, weren't you?" or something really random. And it would be, "Well I'm not going to let you. You're not going to do that. You're useless. You can't even put the kettle on." And there would be a lot of blue language as well that came with it obviously.   And then it kind of, there was a mixture of stuff as well which is also hard to explain. It would say things but there wouldn't be any words. It was just like you'd understand it as a whole without the thing. So you'd understand the meaning of what it was but there wouldn't be any words. But it would be still kind of… that was still kind of negative. A lot of it was negative.   And then there would be sometimes random sounds as well. So I can remember I was out once walking with my dogs when I had this episode came on. And it started to go, "Squish, squish, squish, squish, squish," making this sound because it had been raining. So it was making these random noises.   And then on the other hand, which was quite funny, I was walking down the road and I was thinking, "That's odd, I've got my own personal stereo now." And it started singing of all things a Fleetwood Mac song to me. And I was kind of like, "Oh yeah, this isn't so bad." Like then. So I was walking down the road, I was thinking, "That is just bizarre." So it's kind of, it was from one extreme to the other.   And now it's kind of I get it. The voices. It's just such a strange thing to say 'it' but when the voices happen occasionally they come now with the dissociative episode at the same time. And I kind of let them say what they like because I know it's all tosh, frankly.   For me now it's more interesting to think which part of my brain is doing this? I would love to know that. I'm more interested in kind of learning about where it happens than the actual event itself now.   Lucy: I asked Emmanuelle what happens in CBT for psychosis.   Emmanuelle: So cognitive behavioural therapy for psychosis is basically looking at the types of experiences that people have, seeing what kind of goals they want to reach, and trying to work together with the person to look at how they're dealing with their experiences, how they're thinking about their experiences. And perhaps learning together to find a new way of thinking about them or new ways of dealing with them such that they cause less distress.   So a lot of CBT is about identifying the vicious cycles that people find themselves in and helping them to get out of these vicious cycles. And in psychosis often these vicious cycles will include hallucinations and paranoia and other distressing anomalous experiences.   And so it's quite similar to other types of CBT but the nature of what you're working with can be different.   Having said that, also for a lot of people who hear voices, for instance, they also have other emotional difficulties. Sometimes they're very lonely or anxious. And sometimes they can deal with their voices better than actually waking up in the morning and sort of feeling despair of having no socially valued roles, sort of a lack of relationships and that can be more distressing for them. And we will always engage with the person with what is distressing for them, not necessarily what's abnormal.   So sometimes people will say the voices are fine but I would like some help with being able to go to the shops on a regular basis, to find some work perhaps or find ways of having more meaningful relationships with people.   We're very much about empowering people to lead the lives that they want to lead.   And I guess one of the differences in CBT for psychosis and perhaps other types of problems is that it can be sometimes trickier or take a bit longer to engage people because they may not trust you, they may worry that you're going to get them sectioned, or they may think that you can read their thoughts or that you're part of the conspiracy. So we do work very hard at engaging people and seeing things from their point of view. Perhaps more so than you need to do with people who come with say my main problem is depression or anxiety.   Lucy: You mentioned about vicious cycles that people can get into. Would you be able to give an example of a type of vicious cycle that might crop up with this type of problem?  Emmanuelle: Often people get into vicious cycles because of what we call safety behaviours. So a safety behaviour is something that you do when you're scared of something to keep yourself safe.   So, for instance, if you believe that you're going to be killed when you go outside because there's a conspiracy against you and there's people outside waiting to basically kill you in some way, then the likelihood is that you're going to keep yourself at home and you're going to keep yourself safe.   You're going to be looking out for noises of people perhaps surrounding your house, or unusual noises that mean that there's somebody outside with a gun.   So, of course, if you're staying at home to keep yourself safe and you're hypervigilant as we would call it, you're looking out for noises, two things are going to happen. One is that the more you look out for noises the more you're going to hear them. And of course if you're in a state of fright and state of being really anxious you're going to notice all sorts of noises and they're going to have a really sinister meaning. And that's going to confirm your view that there's likely to be somebody outside.   And, of course, if you don't go out then you never disconfirm your fear. So you never find out that actually there is nobody outside to kill you. And the more you then stay indoors, the more isolated you get and the more depressed you get. And you get caught up in this vicious cycle.   So our job as therapists is to try and get the person to take risks so that they're able to expose themselves to their fear situation so that they learn that their fears aren't true.   Now, of course, when somebody believes that they're going to be killed that's a tall ask and that's why you have to go very slowly with people with paranoia. But nevertheless what it is is a vicious cycle.   Lucy: That's really useful. I was just thinking about voices and are there any particular strategies that CBT offers to help people manage voices? That must be just so hard having voices sort of chatting in your ear all the time, particularly if they're saying things that aren't very nice.   Emmanuelle: We would work with coping strategies, helping people with coping strategies. But also very importantly with voices we would try to change their meaning.   So you might have day-to-day coping strategies that might just be able to counteract the sort of voices that are going on and on and on at you. So you might, for instance, hum. Just the process of humming slightly might actually interfere with hearing the voice and might be able to get a bit of respite from the voices.   Depending on which kind of situations people hear voices, you might be able to just listen to music to drown them out, listen to the TV or basically having another noise that counteracts them.   And that can happen for a short-term basis. But of course you can't hum all day long. And you can't wear headphones all day long. So although they can offer some respite, it's not necessarily a long-term strategy.   And what's very important though is to use the fact that people can actually stop the voices even if that's temporarily to increase their sense of control over them.   Similarly, the beliefs that people have about powerful voices can be extremely distressing. So they have the power to make things happen against you. So not only are they malign voices that mean you harm, but if they have the power to actually carry out their intent then that can be extremely distressing for people. And then they spend a lot of their time trying to mitigate the power of the voices.   So there's all sorts of different ways in which you can learn to cope with the voices with the ultimate aim of changing the beliefs that you have about the voices. And changing the relationship that you have with the voices that will allow you to be able to live with them in a less distressing way and in a better way and get on with your life despite the voices.   Lucy: What is Chris's experience of this? Was it enough for him to control the voices rather than get rid of them?   Chris: I don't think you ever get rid of things. It's about accepting them and learning how to deal with them. And that's what a good therapist does and that's what CBT does, whether it's bipolar or kind of hearing voices or kind of all the rest of it, psychosis.   Lucy: Could you say a little bit about your experience of CBT?   Chris: My experience of CBT, actually at the PICuP Clinic was incredible. It turned my life around. It revolutionised my recovery. And I mean I'll always be in recovery. But it was just incredible and it was like a… it became less of a therapy session and more of a learning session. And it was a collaborative session.   There was kind of a lesson plan, if you like, from the therapist. And we would decide what we were going to do each session. I began to feel really engaged with it. Because I was having things like dissociative episodes, and I was kind of hearing voices and I'd be kind of… or sometimes it was just like sounds. Occasionally I was having these kind of really weird delusions and imagining that I was being touched and stuff like this.   And it made me make sense of that. And I think for the first time I understood that it was down to me to make myself better with the help of a therapist.   Lucy: So it sounds like sort of quite hard work actually, isn't it, along with it being a really beneficial experience. It sounds like there's quite a lot you have to put in.   Chris: Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can't just kind of like sit back and kind of think, "Okay, well I'm feeling a little bit better." You've got to keep on top of it.   Lucy: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm really interested in how you describe it because recovery is sometimes a bit of a controversial word actually. I've read some stuff about people saying they don't like the word because it feels like you have to get better, whatever better is. And if that doesn't happen to you then you've kind of failed at that.   But it sounds like the way you describe recovery it's actually not like the things have gone away totally. It's more like you have a different relationship with them.   Chris: Yeah. I think it varies from person to person. And, like I said before, it's what you can, not tolerate, but I guess what you can live with.   It's not about recovery because I don't think you ever necessarily recover. But you learn to deal with it. Or you can learn to deal with it. And I think it's one of these things that it doesn't just happen. And even for me, I have to do a little check, think, "Oh yes, brain, how are you feeling today? How's it functioning?" and things.   Obviously I do still get depressed and I do get down. But I would think now it's within normal parameters. I think it's what generally most people would feel.   Lucy: And are there any sort of particular strategies that you found really helpful?   Chris: Mindfulness. And feeling like I'm in the present as well. And I think often people think too far ahead. I was talking to somebody yesterday who was having a really bad anxiety attack. And she was saying, "Oh I'm terrified about the future." And I said, "Well the future hasn't happened yet. Don't think about it." I said, "Do it in kind of like bite sizes if you like, small sizes. You don't have to think about what's going to happen in like 2021. Think about just what's happening now."   So I think it's taking charge of what's happening in the present a little bit and that helps to kind of ground you, it helps to ground me because I was the same. I used to think, "Oh my God I'll never work again, I'll never do this, I'll never do that." That was all about thinking too far ahead. And now I'm in a place where I think, "My God, I never expected to be here." And I actually love it. And it's perfect for me. Completely different to what I was doing previously.   Lucy: So what sort of evidence base is there for CBT for psychosis?   Emmanuelle: So there is a reliable and consistent evidence base about CBT for psychosis. Most of the studies that have been done are for people who are already taking antipsychotic medication. So CBT for psychosis is very much adjunctive or on top of taking antipsychotic medication.   And on the whole not everybody will benefit but around 50% of people will benefit in some way from CBT for psychosis. Whether that's in terms of reducing the distress with their voices, or reducing them complying with threats or orders from their voices, whether it's reduction of paranoia. But also reduction in depression or sometimes anxiety. Or other types of problems depending on what focus the CBT had.  So in more recent trials people have used the outcomes that actually measure what's happening in therapy. So, to give you an example, in one particular trial, what the trial focused on was reducing people complying with harmful hallucinations. So people who would hurt themselves or hurt others on the basis of commands that the hallucinations would give them. And the purpose of the trial was to reduce that compliance. And we therefore used a measure which was reducing compliance rather than seeing whether the hallucinations stopped or not. And we found that nearly 50% of people in the therapy group were 50% more likely to not comply with their voices than people in the other group.  But their hallucinations continued. So we didn't get rid of the voices which wasn't the aim, but we did reduce the risk that they posed to themselves and others.   And another movement in the evidence base is to just look at one problem at a time. Basically in CBT for psychosis in the clinic whatever the person has on their problem list is what you will do in therapy. So with one person that might be looking at how depressed they feel and like what motivation they have or the despair they feel in not having relationships. With somebody else I'd be dealing with voices. Somebody else with paranoia. And so on and so forth.   So rather than trying to assess all of those things at once, the more recent trials have kind of targeted one area, one particular problem at a time. And then showed that these particular types of therapy for that particular problem was effective. And that literature has shown then much higher effect sizes.   So to cut a long story short, there is a reliable evidence base for CBT for psychosis. And it's getting stronger all the time.   Lucy: I asked both Chris and Emmanuelle if they had any last remarks for people who are considering CBT for psychosis.   Chris: Just to kind of reiterate, if you are scared, if somebody's scared about having CBT, try it first of all and then if you don't like it step away from it.   I think also a good therapist, towards the end of the therapy should have things for their client to do afterwards. They should have places they could recommend for them to go and things they recommend for them to do or ways to get into voluntary work or just things that they're not left high and dry when it's finished. That's what I think's very important too.   Emmanuelle: People have an idea of CBT in general being very much kind of thought police and it's very short and it's just like putting on a sticking plaster. But actually CBT for psychosis is not short. So NICE, the National Institute of Clinical Care and Excellence recommend a minimum of six months. So it's not a short therapy.   And it's very collaborative and your therapist will be listening to your point of view and understand your point of view before trying to change anything.   So it is worth thinking about just trying it out.   Lucy: A huge thanks to both Chris and Emmanuelle.   If you'd like more information on CBT for psychosis please check out the show notes.   For more on CBT in general and for our register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com. And have a listen to our other podcast episodes for more on different types of CBT and the problems it can help with.     END OF AUDIO 

  Most of us have some worries about how we look, but what if those worries get so bad they stop you being able to go out?  Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD) is a serious problem but it can be overcome, as Gareth explains.  Gareth and Prof David Veale talk to Dr Lucy Maddox. This show includes mention of suicide. Show Notes and Transcript Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP   For more information have a look at... Websites The website of the BABCP is at babcp.com.  To find an accredited CBT therapist go to http://www.cbtregisteruk.com. The website of the BDD Foundation is at: https://bddfoundation.org/ You can find questionnaires, information, videos of people with BDD speaking about their experience and resources about where to seek help. This Australian website has self-help booklets on BDD: https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/ Books A really good book by David is this one: Overcoming Body Image Problems by David Veale and Rob Wilson. Gareth recommends looking through when you're not too anxious, and persevering even if it doesn't reduce your anxiety straight away as it will help you hit the ground running with therapy. Credits Editing consultation: Eliza Lomas Music: Gabe Stebbing Picture: Vince Fleming from Unsplash Transcript Lucy: Hi, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast made by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, BABCP. This podcast is all about CBT, what it is, what it's not and how it can be useful.   In this episode we explore CBT for body dysmorphic disorder, or BDD. BDD involves being really preoccupied with perceived defects in your appearance.   Most of us will experience dissatisfaction about some aspect of how we look, but body dysmorphic disorder is much more severe. It's really distressing and it really gets in the way of people's lives.   I went to hear first-hand about what it's like to experience BDD.   Gareth: Yes, my name is Gareth, I'm an ex-sufferer of BDD and I've had CBT for BDD in the past.   When I had BDD I really believed that I was very ugly, that I had very deformed features and that other people would notice these and treat me differently because of them.   I used to worry about my nose, that it was too big and that it was just sort of unattractive. That my face was too thin, this may sound funny, but that my head was too small for my body, proportionately. I guess there were some other concerns that my eyes bulged out of my head and things like that and that I was just too skinny overall. But I think the main things were nose and jaw.   Lucy: Did it sort of creep up on you or did it happen quite suddenly?  Gareth: No, I think it definitely crept up on me. It was interesting, in therapy, looking back and thinking where it started from; I had some very clear memories from earlier in life. When I was eight years old and then a little bit later, but then it crept in during my teenage years and it was only when I got to 17 or so that it really sort of mushroomed and the anxiety just became very disabling.   I think because it becomes all encompassing, it starts to affect all areas of your life and a part of the condition is you develop a lot of behaviours in response to the preoccupation, I guess. So for me, I would often research surgical procedures online for hours on end or take photographs or videos of myself and analyse them for long periods of time. Or look in mirrors for long periods of time analysing my perceived defects and thinking about how I could change them or improve them.   But also, avoiding a lot of things because of my concerns about the way I looked. I guess the two things operated in tandem. As the behaviours around mirror checking and things started to increase, then the avoidance did as well and I became more and more withdrawn from the world. It was really a very distressing and unpleasant period of time.   Some of these activities, once you get hooked into it, once you look in the mirror and get the emotional reaction to how you look and start to check, or once you start to take photographs and get involved in that procedure, hours can just disappear and your mood just goes down and down as time goes on. So yeah, very time consuming.   Lucy: Did it get in the way of you making friends and going out to social things?   Gareth: For me I had a good group of friends up until age 19 or 20, but then it really did start to interfere with that and stopped me from seeing them and those relationships broke down, which made me feel more isolated and have more time to think about my appearance and sort of made the whole problem worse.   But ultimately the anxiety was so bad that I couldn't work for, I think seven years, which was probably a quarter of my life at that time. So it was a very long period of time.   Lucy: It's really hard for me to imagine you being so worried about that actually because I'm come to meet you now and you're clearly professional and going about your business. It's hard to fit those two together. So things seem to have changed a lot?  Gareth: Yeah, they definitely have. I think they changed so much that sometimes I don't… It can be hard to remember sometimes what it was like in the past, even though I only had the treatment, I think eight years ago now, no, nine years ago, sorry, I'm older than I thought. (Laughs)   It's hard to remember how things were sometimes because things feel very, very different now. I don't really have BDD thoughts, maybe once a year at most, I look in the mirror, a thought will pop into my head and then I just think, no, I don't do that anymore and that's it. So yeah, I'm in a very different place.   Lucy: I also spoke to an expert in the treatment of BDD.   David: My name is David Veale, I'm a consultant psychiatrist at the South London Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust and a visiting professor at the Department of Psychology in the Institute of Psychiatry and Psychology and Neurosciences.   Lucy: You've been quite a pioneer in the treatment of BDD, what got you interested in it?  David: Well, actually in this building I remember treating, trying to treat somebody with BDD and being pretty hopeless. That was when I was a trainee, so it was at least, blimey, 30-35 years ago (laughs).   I remember when I was first appointed as a consultant we did treat somebody with BDD who went on to commit suicide a few days after he was admitted. I think that did have a major effect on me. At that stage nobody really knew what BDD was or how best to treat it.   The awareness of these sorts of problems is increasing; it's a lot better than it was say 10-20 years ago, but there's always more to be done.   I think the problem is that it's not taken seriously enough. I think often people treat it as body dissatisfaction. We're all dissatisfied, but this is something quite different. What we're talking about here is something that's quite significantly distressing and interfering in their life and usually associated with many repetitive behaviours, particularly things like checking in the mirrors or checking their appearance in some way, or constantly comparing and ruminating all the time.   It's a different league to normal body dissatisfaction. I think if people recognised or understood how severe it was, or in terms of the suicide risk and so on, then I think it would be taken more seriously.   Lucy: Is it similar to what people experience when they have an eating disorder or is it different?   David: It's not quite the same as an eating disorder. I mean there are a few people, usually with less severe problems who get very preoccupied by weight and shape and so on. And don't necessarily have an eating disorder but then they have mild body dysmorphic disorder.   But usually with body dysmorphic disorder people are much more preoccupied with features around their face, particularly the nose or their skin and their chin, their hair and so on. Although any part of the body can be the main features that [people] get preoccupied by.   Lucy: It must be kind of hard to find out if you have it, if you feel like it's an objective reality, that you really are very ugly or something is very unusual about the way that you look. How do people tend to find that they've got this problem?  David: Well, by definition most people believe that this is a problem to do with their appearance and so they don't generally tend to seek help from mental health professionals. They're much more likely to seek help from cosmetic surgeons and dermatologists.   And it's only perhaps often that the pressure of family or friends to try to help them get the appropriate help.   Lucy: How can cognitive behavioural therapy, or CBT, help with body dysmorphic disorder?   David: Well, we've got a number of different studies now suggesting that cognitive behaviour therapy can help people to change their body image. In other words, prior to having CBT they may have very different body image in terms of what people see in their mind's eye. After therapy then that body image can change, can be altered as such.   But it is difficult. It is tough. It's certainly not a wonder treatment and compared to other interventions in CBT for different types of problems, it's not as powerful because it's still a very difficult problem to solve.   It may take 20-25 sessions to get a good treatment programme going. Very occasionally people who don't make progress may be stepped up to a more intensive level of care. Very often it needs constant strengthening of more helpful ways of responding and dealing with the world.   Lucy: What sorts of things would happen in the therapy room, if somebody was having CBT?  David: The most important thing in CBT for BDD is first of all having an engagement, in other words, both having a mutual understanding of what the problem is.   In this particular case the problem of course is the person with BDD believes that they have an appearance problem. Whereas the therapist and everybody else believes that they have a problem with being preoccupied and extremely concerned and worried about their appearance and having a different… in other words, a body image problem.   And so individuals are invited to test out this alternative theory or understanding of the problem. And so that requires a lot of commitment in terms of trying to act and test out an alternative understanding of what the problem is.   But we're not going to directly challenge the content of those beliefs about the evidence for someone being so ugly or whether this person looks a particular way. What we're going to mainly focus on is the processes that keep the problem going.   And so in BDD we've identified a number of different thinking processes, particularly ruminating and the way you might analyse and go round and round and round, trying to ask yourself, why was I born so ugly or if only I hadn't seen that surgeon and so on.   In addition, people are constantly comparing themselves and socially ranking themselves compared to others. Of course they're always at the bottom.   They may be excessively self-focused on how they see themselves in that picture in their mind's eye. They may be avoiding a wide range of situations or activities, or they're using lots of what we call 'safety seeking behaviours'. That is things that you do to perhaps try and camouflage or to constantly check on how exactly you do look.   So there are lots of things that maintain and keep the preoccupation, the distress going and it's these things that we try to target.   Lucy: I asked Gareth about his experience of cognitive behavioural therapy.   Gareth: So I had CBT and it was probably a little bit different from most people's experiences of CBT in that it was residential CBT, so I lived in a unit for – 'unit' sounds very institutional doesn't it? I lived there for five days a week, so Monday to Friday and went home on the weekends, for 12 weeks.   The treatment really involved the therapist helping me to understand what sorts of things might be maintaining the anxiety in terms of my own thoughts, thought processes and how I engage with them. And then the things that then responds to those thoughts, or to the anxiety.   So understanding how those things might be keeping the problem going and then starting to make some changes to those things and learning ways of doing things differently. A different relationship with my thoughts, I guess, and different behaviours, just to help me feel better.   Lucy: Part of it was about understanding what might be keeping things going and then changing things. What sort of things were you asked to try to do differently?  Gareth: I think the first step was to start to understand the thoughts, my feelings, the problem, and start to spot when they were coming into my head. And then to start to distance myself from those thoughts a little bit.   I think in some therapy for other disorders you might try to challenge the thought, but in BDD, I think because the thoughts are so strong and the belief in them is so strong, that's a bit of a futile task. So rather than trying to challenge the thoughts, learn to take a step back from them, see them just as thoughts and then not engage with them, not get on board with them.   Lucy: That sounds quite useful for lots of different situations actually.   Gareth: Indeed. It was.   Lucy: What were the behaviours you mentioned that you were asked to do differently?  Gareth: One of them was in relation to the use of mirrors. Rather than looking in the mirror and using that as a tool to scrutinise my appearance and critique my appearance, just using it in the way that normal people would. And I had to re-train myself to do that.   That involved some relatively unpleasant experiments I have to say. So standing in a three-way mirror, which to me was the worst thing imaginable, but then learning to – when the thoughts came up – to detach myself from them by focusing my attention elsewhere. And then just to use the mirror just to do whatever I was supposed to be doing. And then walk away and switch off the thoughts.  Lucy: When you say using a mirror like normal people, what do you mean by that?  Gareth: I guess in the context of the three-way mirror, initially the practice was just to detach from the thoughts and distance myself from the thoughts. But I guess ultimately in that situation it would be to try on a jumper and see if it fitted properly. And then either buy it or put it back, but leave the mirror.   Or with general mirrors in bathrooms and things, just to sort of, you might check your hair if you're at work just to make sure it's not sticking up. Or in the morning, just to brush your hair, to get a normal level of grooming that most people would, rather than spending an excessive time there simply focusing on what's wrong and thinking about how you could fix that.   Lucy: It sounds pretty full-on actually.   Gareth: It was full-on. I remember when people used to ask me about the treatment, what it was like, I remember saying it was brutal. It really was. I think having to confront the things you least want to think about on a daily basis for weeks on end, it's pretty tough.   It's just like you going cage diving with sharks every day. I think because some of the avoidance, there was so much avoidance in my life that having to challenge that and go against it and put myself in the situations that I had been avoiding, I was very fearful of, it did feel very, very hard.   But that's not to say that it wasn't worthwhile because it's completely changed my life. So I wouldn't want that to put anybody off.   Lucy: Did you experience changes in how you thought and felt by the end of those weeks?  Gareth: Yeah, definitely. I think my anxiety level was greatly reduced in some situations, I think even after 6-8 weeks. After 12 weeks, things had markedly improved. But then some of the things had taken longer, obviously, for me to feel more comfortable with.   Now years on, I have virtually no anxiety, which is a surprise from where I was back then.   I also got quite involved with some support groups near where I lived in Bolton, for people with different disorders. It was just a support for people with self-esteem problems or depressions.   I guess I'm mentioning that because it was really useful being able to speak with people who had similar problems at the unit where I had the CBT. It really normalised the way I was feeling, it made me feel that actually this is okay, this is on the spectrum of human experience. I am a person like everybody else, not some weirdo. I've got mental health problems.   But I think for me that was started much sooner by getting involved with local support groups and some online support groups and things. I think that really helped.   Lucy: Do you think it helps with worries – particularly about your appearance – does it help you to see other people who have a similar worry about their appearance, but that you don't see in the same way?  Gareth: Yeah, that was really interesting. I think particularly to see people who you find attractive who have BDD, I think that's really like, "Oh god, really?"  Lucy: I guess we live increasingly in a social media environment where there are a lot of selfies and you can airbrush yourself, even put ears on yourself and things like that. Do you think that change in the way we interact online has an impact at all?  Gareth: I think it must do and thankfully I kind of missed this. I think Facebook was becoming more popular, maybe just before I had treatment or just after I had treatment, so it wasn't a big issue. But I think it must definitely have an impact.   I think there is research that shows that people's concern about their image is becoming more prevalent with the rise of social media. But I think because it is essentially like a self-propaganda tool and nobody ever posts the worst picture, it's all about trying to make yourself look good. It's inconceivable that it couldn't have an impact.   Lucy: I also asked David what he thought about the impact of social media. It tends to get blamed for a lot, but David had some ideas about how it's not the media itself, but the way it's used that can be problematic.   David: The way people with BDD tend to use selfies and so on is usually very much on their own. They're not going to be doing it with others. And then they store hundreds of them on their phone or in a way that is unhelpful. It's like a constant check as if you're in the mirror.   And so again, usually emotional criteria are used, that you may carry on doing it or looking at it until it feels just right or 'just so', in some way.   It's not used in the same way as it might be on Instagram or Facebook or something because they're not going to post them anywhere. They're primarily there to check exactly how they look.   However, they may well be using Instagram and Facebook to constantly compare themselves in their own mind's eye with what they see on other pictures on Facebook and Instagram.   So this is another thing for constant ranking. And of course people with BDD tend to rank themselves at the bottom and other people are always better than them, so that it's not helpful because it's exactly the same thing they're doing as they walk down the street and focusing in on a particular feature and then ranking themselves according to that feature. They see themselves as that feature or sometimes we call this, 'I'm just a walking nose, that's all that I am.'  Lucy: What's the evidence base like for cognitive behavioral therapy for BDD?  David: There's been a few trials now, we've certain done one that compares CBT against a comparison like anxiety management, which was rated just as credible. But that was only 12 sessions. We were able to demonstrate that it was better than anxiety management and I and others have also demonstrated that it's better than a waiting list.   It's not fantastic and that's why we're saying we probably need a lot more sessions, often treating other types of problems because by the time they get to see you, they often have additional problems.   Lucy: Do you feel like there has been progress made in the treatment?   David: I think we've got a much better understanding of what it is and the different variations and forms of it. And I think we certainly got some better interventions, particularly trying to identify some of the earlier aversive experiences that often people have had a lot of teasing and bullying and so on about being different in some way during adolescence.   And we can sometimes try and focus in on those and try to help them, what we call 'emotionally process' them, a bit like trauma memories and that's certainly been quite exciting.   And sometimes helping perhaps a more compassionate approach to themselves, particularly those people who are very self-critical and ruminating all the time. Again, that may be more promising. I think these things are very slow, but it's definitely, I think, the outlook is a lot better than it used to be.   Lucy: Is there anything else you would advise people who are thinking about cognitive behavioural therapy for BDD?  David: I think you do have to do it when you're ready. In other words, it's not worth doing if you're just trying to get your parents or the cosmetic surgeons off your back.   I think you do have to go into it being open and accepting that it may be a different problem to what you think of it as yourself. And just accepting that there's maybe more of a body image problem rather than necessarily an appearance problem and just trust perhaps, the people that you love and love you, around you, that they have your best interests at heart.   BDD is a recognised problem. It is treatable and sometimes if the therapy is not working, then sometimes you might add different medications as well. It's definitely worth seeking help.   Lucy: I asked Gareth what he would advise too.   Gareth: I would have liked somebody to have said to me, "This is going to be very hard, but it's going to be very worthwhile."   In terms of what it's like, going back to what I said earlier about it being brutal. I also felt very supported through that, I had a really good connection with my therapist and I think that's really important. I think if you don't have a good connection with your therapist, I think it's really important to try to talk to them about it if you can.   What happened for me, before I had the effective treatment, I had therapists who I didn't get on with very well or I didn't feel able to talk to or who perhaps weren't working on the right stuff and I didn't feel able to say that.   I think because of that I wasted time, I wasted my allocated resources from the NHS and I wasted years of my life, as well as I was stuck with the problem.   I suppose I want to say that things can get better and it's hard to know that sometimes. I think particularly with mental health problems, I think with physical health problems it's a bit easier, but I think with mental health problems there's a lot of stigma still.   We all tend to grow up trusting our mind. I think when things get difficult or we become more anxious it can be very hard to feel stuck with the problem. So do get some treatment and give it your all if you can.   Lucy: Thank you. This problem in particular has a huge impact on people's mood doesn't it? It's really important that people are able to realise that there's help out there.   Gareth: It does, yeah, and I think there's an increased suicide rate as well. I think it's even higher than it is with depression, so I think for that reason it's really important to realise that there is treatment out there that can help however catastrophic things seem, so get the treatment.   Lucy: That's great, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, it's really appreciated.   Gareth: That's okay, my pleasure.   Lucy: If you'd like more information on CBT for BDD, have a look at the show notes for loads of resources.   For more on CBT in general and for a register of accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com and have a listen to our other podcast episodes too for more on different types of CBT and problems it can help with.     END OF AUDIO   

Ever wondered how CBT fits with ideas about health and wellbeing from more spiritual perspectives?  A BABCP outreach event held in a local Glasgow mosque in Summer 2018 explored just this.  Saiqa Naz, Chair of the BABCP's Equality and Culture SIG, Shayhk Abdul Aziz Ahmed and Dr Aman Durrani all speak to Dr Lucy Maddox. Show Notes and Transcript: Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP If you want to know more, check out these resources... Articles Andrew Beck has written an article in the Sept 2016 edition of CBT Today, on page 14, available here: http://www.babcp.com/files/CBT-Today/cbt-today-september-2016.pdf on Helping To Deal With Racism As A Therapist. Saiqa Naz has written an article on p15 of this issue of CBT Today, available here: http://www.babcp.com/files/CBT-Today/cbt-today-february-2017.pdf on Working as a BME CBT Therapist. Books Badri, M. (2013). Abu Zayd al-Balkhi's sustenance of the soul: The cognitive behavior therapy of a ninth century physician. International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT). Beck, A. (2016). Transcultural cognitive behaviour therapy for anxiety and depression: A practical guide. Routledge. Videos To watch the outreach event in full, you can access three videos here: 1) Coping with Stress and Anxiety 1/3: A spiritual and cultural perspective, Shaykh Abdul Aziz Ahmed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i4I8AgIO30&list=PLDRvEQKwDiOGDndWynElDmzqUFo8Pa_vI&index=7&t=0s 2) Coping with Stress and Anxiety 2/3: A psychological perspective, Saiqa Naz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FSWDWSJzXk&list=PLDRvEQKwDiOGDndWynElDmzqUFo8Pa_vI&index=9&t=0s 3) Coping with Stress and Anxiety 3/3: Q&A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQpAiktShBc&list=PLDRvEQKwDiOGDndWynElDmzqUFo8Pa_vI&index=5 Website British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies  https://www.babcp.com/ Transcript Lucy: Hello, and welcome to this bonus episode of Let's Talk About CBT with Dr Lucy Maddox. In this episode, I'm going to introduce you to three people who put on a special outreach event in Glasgow back in July.   This free event was open to the general public but aimed to reach out specifically to the Islamic community in Glasgow where the BABCP conference was being held.   Data shows that Black, Asian and minority ethnic communities are under served by primary mental health services and are less likely than other groups to be referred for talking therapies like CBT. Research findings from Mind in conjunction with the Time to Talk coalition in 2017 highlighted a lack of culturally sensitive and tailored services to meet the diverse needs of many local populations. In addition, some significant cultural barriers can be present within communities which can prevent people seeking help or speaking up.   The event was held in an Islamic community space and it involved talks about mental health from different perspectives, from a CBT therapist, a psychiatrist and an Islamic scholar. Dr Aman Durrani, psychiatrist, introduced the event and Saiqa Naz, CBT therapist, and Shayhk Abdul Aziz Ahmed, Islamic scholar, spoke.   I spoke to Saiqa before the event. As well as being a CBT therapist, Saiqa is chair of the Equality and Culture Special Interest Group of the BABCP. I asked her to tell me more about why minority communities are not seeking mental health support.  Saiqa: We've been hearing about this for many years, that people from BME communities aren't accessing support, so we're just trying to hopefully challenge the stigma by educating them about what mental health is and what kind of support is available to them, and hopefully that will encourage them to seek help.   The whole idea, I guess, is to show people that psychology is at one with the faith and that might encourage people to seek help in the future.   They say, don't they, that if you love your job it's not work, it's a passion, it's a hobby, and that's how I see it. I love connecting with people. I love meeting people. I love being out and about in the community getting to know people, and that's who I learn from. So, there's the learning I've taken from the community and trying to bring it back into the profession.   I'm really passionate about it because for me, CBT, I think everyone should be able to access it. You don't have to be unwell to access it. I know services are set up in that way, but some of the tools that we use, and we teach people are really practical. I think that's why I'm passionate, because you don't have to be unwell to seek help.  Lucy: So, it's something that anyone can benefit from?  Saiqa: Yeah, definitely, and that's what I love about CBT. I always like to use the analogy of people being plumbers and just having extra tools in your toolkit to use when you need it.  Lucy: Saiqa wanted to encourage therapists to seek out her workshops and talk to the special interest groups about any problems that they're having, and if you're going to therapy, feedback to your therapist any cultural issues you think are important.   I spoke to Shayhk Abdul Aziz Ahmed before the event as well, about why he thought the event was important.  Abdul: I'm Abdul Aziz Ahmed.  Lucy: Just for people who might not know what the term 'Shayhk' means, would you mind explaining what it means?  Abdul: I think the way they're using it in the context of tonight is somebody that's learned in Islam, and I'm quite happy to use that title under certain circumstances because it gives credibility to the argument.  Lucy: Could you say a little bit about the event tonight?  Abdul: It's quite an exciting event because hopefully it's an opportunity to raise issues which are relevant to one of the minority communities here, the Muslim community in particular, who have their own cultural barriers which are stopping a lot of people from accessing services to support their mental health. And I think anything that can remove those barriers is a positive thing and so I'm quite excited to be part of that.  Lucy: Could you say a bit more about how somebody's spirituality might present barriers to accessing mental health services?  Abdul: I think the main barrier is not so much their personal spirituality but the cultural interpretations of the community here. There's a larger reliance on very traditional scholars who would interpret mental ill health in a way that it's powers beyond our reach and would interpret them as the jinn or some supernatural forces. And because those people have important roles within the community it makes it very difficult for people who are facing challenges to challenge the community as well.   This hopefully will give an opportunity for people to really empower them, to be able to say, "Actually, I can find the sources. I can get out of this." So, it's not the individual spirituality that would be a problem; it's more the cultural interpretation of that.  Lucy: So, there's room, in a way, for both?  Abdul: Absolutely. And I think anyone that understands how to deliver services to any community will know that if they're culturally sensitive, they will work because people will accept them, because it relates to them as individuals. And therefore the two things need to work together, which is the psychology profession and those who are supporting mental health in general and the community to make sure that those misconceptions within the community are removed. And hopefully we'll be able to do that this evening, or contribute to that this evening.  Lucy: Is this something that you think would be helpful for other communities around the UK to be doing?  Abdul: Absolutely. I've done similar events in a couple of places and I've always found that the response was tremendous. I think that based on those responses, hopefully what will happen tonight is that we will see that this is something that really needs to be rolled out. And the more this is done, the more access people will have to mental health services, and that can only be good for the minority communities.  Lucy: I know you've been travelling recently. Is there anything you wanted to say about the work that you've been doing abroad at all?  Abdul: Yeah, I was in Malaysia and Singapore. Each community that I go to has different kinds of issues. One of the things that I was addressing in Singapore is about pressure, the pressure to succeed, and how that affects young people in particular. Each community has its own manifestation of this, so we do need to be sensitive to what each community needs.   I think the most important thing for the community, all communities that are scared and there's fear of the authorities and mechanisms, is just to try and put that behind you and make that first step. Because once you've made that first step to recognise that, "I need help and there are people to help me", it's all going to get better. We have to help people make that first step – and that's for everybody: therapists, GPs and community leaders.  Lucy: Lastly, I spoke to Dr Durrani about his hopes for the event.  Aman: My name is Dr Aman Durrani and I'm a consultant psychiatrist based here in Glasgow. The event today is a good balance where we have the spiritual element from an Islamic scholar who can very much give the theological perspective, but also a trained therapist as well who can give a very practical method of how you can understand what's going on in your body and your emotions and your thoughts and also what you can do about it.   Glasgow has a majority Pakistani and Muslim background population and so there are many cultural issues, ranging from the earlier generations where language might be an issue, for example. But I think even second, third and fourth generation where they maybe think, if there's something wrong mentally, what are the ramifications if I get help, both for myself and my family, for marriage prospects, for career prospects.   Perhaps there are also issues in relation to, could this be something to do with cultural and religious issues such as possession from spirits, could it be black magic, could it be these other aspects. In my experience, people then will go and seek help from their religious leader, the imam, or community figures rather than going to their GP, for example, to seek help.   So, I think there are these issues of where that understanding is. And I think the important thing I guess I'm hoping from events like today is very much making people understand that these are common mental disorders, these are things that there's treatment and there's help available. But the starting point is understanding that there's an issue and what might be going on and then where you can go for help.  Lucy: Is there anything you'd like to add for people listening who might be therapists or who might be people who are thinking about approaching their GP for help, anything you would like to say?  Aman: I think in my experience always is getting help sooner rather than later is important. I think it's also important to be optimistic that help is available – sometimes it takes times, sometimes it means trying different things, but at the end of the day there's lots that can be done for a lot of these mental health issues, particularly anxiety and stress.  Lucy: I was interested in recording this event because I think it's really important that we do try and put on more outreach events that involve the public in the therapy that we're offering them, and so that we can learn from them about what they best want or most need so that it's really a two-way conversation rather than just explaining what CBT is to people.   I learned a lot about how Islamic culture might be misinterpreted but also how some of the literature is very supportive of seeking out a psychological approach.   These three people were speaking from quite different contexts that they were coming from, so psychiatric, psychological and more spiritual, but actually all of them were recommending that people seek help and were able to talk about how they feel. And all of them were talking about links between the mind and body and how those links can kind of go both ways.   I guess the message for the audience was that they don't have to feel that they can't seek psychological support because of their faith, which I think is a very important message to get across.   I think for therapists it's particularly useful because maybe it might be quite tricky for a therapist who doesn't necessarily have a great knowledge of Islamic literature to be able to reassure somebody that it's totally all right to be seeking psychological support, but actually there's a lot in the text that the Shayhk was talking about which would support somebody seeking help and that's really reassuring.   That's it from me in this special bonus episode of Let's Talk About CBT. This podcast has been brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies or BABCP. For more information, check out BABCP.com and also the show notes.   Thanks to Gabe Stubbing for the music, Eliza Lomas for editing consultation and Saiqa Naz, Shayhk Abdul Aziz Ahmed and Dr Durrani for their interviews.   If you have ideas for future CBT-related topics you'd like covered by this podcast, please email me at [email protected].  END OF AUDIO 

How does mindfulness fit with CBT? And is it all about sitting about on a yoga mat? (spoiler - it's not). This episode delves into Mindfulness Based Therapies, including Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT) and Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR). Prof. Willem Kuyken and Chris Henry speak to Dr Lucy Maddox. Show Notes and Transcript:  Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP If you're interested in finding out more... Books This is book that Willem mentions in the podcast and it comes with a CD of meditations: Williams, M., & Penman, D. (2011). Mindfulness: a practical guide to finding peace in a frantic world. Hachette UK. These books are also good: Teasdale, J. D., Williams, J. M. G., & Segal, Z. V. (2014). The mindful way workbook: An 8-week program to free yourself from depression and emotional distress. Guilford Publications. Segal, Z. V., Williams, M., & Teasdale, J. D. (2018). Mindfulness-based cognitive therapy for depression. Guilford Publications. Websites Headspace has lots of animations about mindfulness and an app you can download to your phone (they do a free trial so you can see if you like it). https://www.headspace.com/ This organisation are bringing mindfulness to schools with several specially devised programs: https://mindfulnessinschools.org/ Here is the organisation that Willem works at: http://oxfordmindfulness.org/ And in particular this page has lots of resources you can access for free: http://oxfordmindfulness.org/for-you/ British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies website is here: https://www.babcp.com/ Transcript Willem: Mindfulness is a human capacity that we all have in any moment of our life. So, in that sense, anybody can do it anywhere and anytime. There's no particular person or particular way of doing mindfulness. It's a way of meeting our minds, meeting our experience, meeting our world in a different way.   Chris: If I'm anxious, at my wit's end, worried about things, then the one thing that I'm absolutely not is balanced or on an even keel, as it were. And the amazing thing is that that kind of pressure of stress and feeling there's no way out or no light at the end of the tunnel, in a worst scenario...   Whenever I have practised mindfulness meditation, if I've been feeling a bit troubled or a bit down or, on occasion, very, very worried about something, invariably I always feel better afterwards.   Lucy: This is Let's Talk about CBT and I'm Dr Lucy Maddox. This series of podcasts, brought to you by the BABCP, explores cognitive behavioural therapy or CBT. What it is, what it's not and how it can be useful.   Today, we're thinking about mindfulness-based therapies. These are some of the wider family of CBTs or cognitive behavioural therapies. I'll be talking to Willem Kuyken and Chris Henry about mindfulness-based stress reduction and mindfulness-based cognitive therapy. I met Willem in Oxford and asked how he would describe mindfulness.   Willem: There's a short answer to that, which is that mindfulness is a capacity that we all have to bring a certain kind of awareness to our experience. An awareness that has curiosity, interest and care.   A longer answer is that mindfulness is something that has three different elements to it. It's the 'what?' Our attention and our awareness. The 'how?' That is cultivating a certain mode of mind, if you like. A certain way of thinking. Of meeting our experience,     meeting our world, with curiosity, kindness, care, equanimity and patience. We're not just reacting to the world, we're actually meeting the world in a very particular way. Meeting our experience in a very particular way.   Then I think the third part of it is the 'why?' Why are we doing this? It's not just for fun or just for no good reason. In the case of mindfulness-based cognitive therapy for depression, it's to help people with a very long history of depression begin to see the patterns of thinking, the patterns of behaviour and the patterns of reacting that's lead to depression in the past. And learn new ways of responding. So, there's a what? How? And why? to mindfulness.   Lucy: Could you say a little bit about what got you into mindfulness-based therapies?  Willem: Yeah. When I was a young, clinical academic in my 20s, I became interested in mindfulness as something for myself. In those days, it wasn't really in the mainstream. It certainly wasn't in the mainstream of academia. I found it personally very helpful in all aspects of my life.   It was then, in the late 1990s, I went to a conference called East Meets West. There were a range of people talking about how mindfulness could be applied in health. They were just beginning to think about mindfulness for depression. It was a wonderful opportunity for something that had been personally important to me for, at that point, more than 10 years, and was also a professional interest.   Lucy: Who is mindfulness particularly useful for?  Willem: Okay. I'm going to answer that question as a scientist and point to the areas where I think the evidence is strongest. I think the first area where the evidence is strongest is for people with chronic physical health problems. Jon Kabat-Zinn developed something called, Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction, which is an eight-week programme that helps people to find ways to live better with long-term physical health problems for which there may not be a physical cure.   The second area where the evidence is very strong is with mindfulness-based cognitive therapy for recurrent depression. This is for people with a long history of depression to learn ways to see how they can respond differently to the early warning signs of depressive relapse. To find ways to recover from depression in the long-term. And through our own work, as an alternative to staying on medication long-term.   I think a third area where the evidence is pretty strong is for people with substance misuse problems and addiction. A programme called, Mindfulness-based Relapse Prevention helps people who are in recovery from addiction to learn ways to see their cravings, to see their addictive patterns. Again, the phrase that's used here is, 'crave surfing'. (Laughs) To see the cravings for whatever addictive substance and to learn to surf on those cravings.   Lucy: You mentioned, there mindfulness-based stress reduction and mindfulness-based cognitive therapy. Could I ask you just to explain, in a nutshell, what the difference between the two is?  Willem: The way I think I'd describe it is that these different programmes have got different people in mind. Mindfulness-based stress reduction has got somebody with long-term physical health problems in mind. It's trying to help them find a way to navigate the stress of chronic pain or the stress of cancer, or whatever it might be.   Mindfulness-based cognitive therapy has a very particular understanding of depressive relapse. Of what it looks like when somebody goes into a downward spiral of depressive thinking. It helps that group of people, people with recurrent depression, see those moments and learn to respond differently.   Lucy: What do they look like, I guess, for people who might be signing up to one? What can they expect?  Willem: They're both group-based programmes. There are groups of about 15 people with one mindfulness teacher. It's more like an adult evening class than it is therapy, in that sense. What people are doing is they are learning new skills. They're learning about their own minds, they're learning about their own behaviour and they're learning in a way that I think is actually – and it's a rather long word – emancipatory.   What you're teaching people is the skills whereby they themselves can navigate themselves out of tricky situations. They can navigate themselves out of habits of mind that have, often over many years, got them into patterns of suffering and repeated negative thinking. That can be an extraordinary insight for people. An extraordinary change for people.   The other thing that I think is very powerful about mindfulness-based programmes is a sense of common humanity that comes out. That people will sit around a table or a room and they will say, "Gosh, I thought this way of thinking was just me. That my negative thinking about myself as a loser or being no good was unique to me. But there's a primary school teacher, there's a builder, there's somebody who works in an office, and they look just like me and their mind is just like mine."   There's a tremendous sense of common humanity that I think is also very healing about mindfulness-based approaches taught in a group format.   Lucy: Although anyone can practise mindfulness, Willem told us there about two specific types of group programme. Mindfulness-based stress reduction and mindfulness-based cognitive therapy.   Chris has experienced mindfulness-based cognitive therapy. I went to London to meet with him at King's College Hospital. Here's his story.   Chris: I came to mindfulness meditation as a result of being diagnosed with a chronic heart condition and following open heart surgery. So, the potential for this therapy to help me keep my blood pressure at a reasonable level, to deal with the occasional stresses which arise in daily life and to avoid unnecessary stress is extremely helpful.   I found myself, when I first learned the therapy... having been reasonably healthy, to be told that I needed open heart surgery. That, as for a lot of people, I think is fairly life changing. It's a big shock. Also, what's absolutely key and what every cardiac patient learns in rehab, is the importance of changing lifestyle to maximise heart health. That involves quite a lot of lifestyle changes.   All of this upheaval, for me, and accommodating those changes was definitely helped by using mindfulness meditation. To put it into perspective, to not allow myself to panic or get things out of proportion. Also, not to succumb to the everyday temptations, either eating or drinking or whatever, which would be bad for my heart health.   I think the major way that the therapy has helped me is because, whilst my surgery was very successful and I responded well to the rehab advice and support, what the whole process left me with was high levels of anxiety. I had problems with insomnia, simply becoming anxious. There were a number of changes around work that I needed to address.  Gradually and over time, I think the centring effect – if I can put it that way – of the therapy, practising on a fairly regular basis, helped me deal with those challenges in a way that I would have found much more difficult had I not had that support.   Lucy: I asked Willem to describe some mindfulness exercises.   Willem: There are a range of different mindfulness practices. I'll describe one, which is the body scan practice. In the body scan practice, what people are invited to do is to bring their attention, with a quality of interest and care, to scan all the way through the body, from the very tips of the toes all the way to the top of the head.   They're being asked to do that for a number of reasons. The first is to stabilise their attention so that they can actually choose where they focus their attention. It just happens to be the body in this practice.   The second is to cultivate these different ways of being and knowing. So, to be curious. To be patient. To be present. To be non-judgemental. This sounds simple but actually, our normal way of thinking is often to be quite automatic. To be quite judgemental. We can often do that without being aware that we're even doing it. So, it's bringing a certain quality to our attention and awareness. That is a training that can then be used in all parts of people's lives.   I, for example, am the father of two daughters. I remember when they were teenagers, it was very easy to be reactive. It was very easy to see things that they said or did and to find myself wanting to speak and act in a particular way. Mindfulness enabled me to see that. To see that happening and to say, "Actually, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to choose to bite my tongue." Or, "I'm going to choose to respond in a different way."   These practices of focusing on the body, focusing on the breath, mindful movement – yoga, if you like – are in the service of helping us to better understand our minds, train our mind and actually transform our minds. Because, you know, it's a lifetime of practice. Because I've just turned 50, my mind has had 50 years to develop a particular way of thinking and reacting. To turn that around is not easy.   Many people with mental health problems will recognise that. People with a background of generalised anxiety, depression or health anxiety. These are very sticky mental habits that people are trying to recognise, understand and transform.   One of the practices that many clients find tremendously helpful is called the three-step breathing space. It involves three steps. The first step is to help people to recognise what's happening right now, in my mind, in my body, in my emotions? It's just a stopping and a recognition of what's happening.   The second step is then an anchoring. People are anchoring their attention, anchoring their awareness. Typically, on their body or on their breath. "Okay, can I step out of reactivity and just anchor myself in my body and in my breath?" That can take 30 seconds. It can take a couple of minutes. It can take a bit longer.   Then the third step, having anchored ourselves, is to broaden out to a broader awareness of what's happening in my body and in my wider world.   What we're doing with that three-step breathing space is we're helping people to recognise automaticity and reactivity, to step out of it and anchor themselves, and then, in a way, re-engage or re-meet the world but from a different place. And in a place that I think can unlock a whole repertoire of different ways of responding.   Lucy: That's a really nice example because that's actually quite a quick one, isn't it. That people could do and other people might not even know they're doing it, even in a public place, for example.   Willem: Yes. Yeah. And I think it's the sort of place where, if you like, the rubber meets the road. People can do that practice and then they can apply it in all sorts of different places.   For example, a young person at school going into an exam can be completely crippled by anxiety. At that moment, they could do a three-step breathing space and recognise the anxiety, the catastrophic thoughts, the contraction. Stabilise themselves, have this different way of being and knowing and go, "You know what I need to do right now, just before the exam? It's X, Y and Z." It's the shift that can make all of the difference.   I had a teacher once who told me that she did this all the time at parents' evenings, when she knew that she was about to have a difficult interaction with a parent. She would take a three-step breathing space. And she would end the three-step breathing space, really interestingly, with having some compassion for the child and the parents. It just completely reframed the conversations for her.   So, it's just a very simple tool that people who have learned mindfulness can switch from an automatic, reactive way of interacting with the world to a more intentional, embodied, compassionate way, if you like, of interacting with the world.   Lucy: To recap, the sorts of mindfulness practices that you might do in a group include the full body scan and three-step breathing, although you can be mindful anywhere. What about the effects of the practice?   A clinical psychologist recommended a mindfulness course to Chris whilst he was in hospital for cardiac rehab. So, his first experience was an eight-week course, two hours per week, in a group of around eight people from all sorts of different backgrounds.     Chris: The teacher explained the process, a very simple and straightforward process, of meditating. And practised with us. Gradually, over the period of eight weeks, we built up both the length of time that we were meditating in the sessions and we also regularly, over the eight weeks, had homework, as it were, which we practised at home.   One of the ways in which the therapy has really helped me is that, in being very anxious post-surgery, I also had difficulty deciding, as objectively as possible, how well I was doing. Was I recovering? Was I going to be okay? Were things going to go back to normal, as it were?   Professionally, I had worked for a large organisation in the business of measuring standards. So, in my day-to-day work I had been judging performance, looking at how well people were doing, taking a hopefully even-handed but critical eye as to how things were going.   And what mindfulness showed me was how easy it was for me, as I did at the time, to turn that critical eye of myself and judge myself. And, as it were, beat myself up if I didn't practise on my own each day and so on.   Over a period of time, and also reading around the subject a little bit since completing the course, I have taken the approach that, although it would be great to practise every day, life happens. I'm not going to beat myself up if I don't. I shall aim to practise most days. That's what I do. And that's been quite a useful revelation.   I think the other thing is that, to put in a straightforward way, it's helped me accept that I'm probably okay (Laughs). And also that, with the prospect of needing, as I now do, to monitor lifestyle and health issues in terms of my heart condition, it's helped me to take an approach to the future which is based around, "I want to enjoy time and value the people and the things that are important to me."   And to try and not waste time being concerned, angry or critical of things over which I have no control. Also, to not judge when people are difficult, different, problematic, upset or annoying me in some way.   Lucy: Could you explain, just to help people understand, how you got from the practice of meditation and sitting with yourself to having those understandings, which sound really important?  Chris: The difficulties with which mindfulness meditation helps me are to do with anxiety and feelings of stress. The way I experience that stress and anxiety is largely by feeling that my mind is crowded with issues, I turn things over and over in my head, I lie awake at night worrying about something.   What practising mindfulness helped me do is simply to provide, if you like, a quietness from all of those things. To actually, simply, mentally put them to one side. Understanding that they're still there. And to then methodically address issues in a way which is not hindered by the mental noise of a lot of competing factors.   I used to put things off and I used to prevaricate hugely. I would have things that I knew I needed to do and they'd be playing on my mind. They'd add, obviously, to the stress. What I learned was that, actually, a good approach for me if I'm concerned about something – thinking about practical things – is just to deal with it at the time. To actually remove it from the mental or anxiety in-tray, as it were, and then it's out of the way.   Lucy: As someone who has practised mindfulness for most of his life and who now researches its benefits, how does Willem see it?  Willem: The question that arises sometimes is, "What is the purpose of mindfulness practice?" There's a story of that being asked of a sage, if you like. He answered, "Well, the point of a lifetime of practice is an appropriate response." What does that mean? It means that, in the midst of a challenging situation or in the midst of something important, knowing what the right thing to say or to do is.   The practice, as I said before, has got a purpose. It's got an intention. The intention is to support people to lead a life that is aligned with their values, that feels meaningful, that feels enjoyable.   Of course, mental health problems like anxiety and depression are very disabling. If people can learn to live with and to transform those conditions with mindfulness, not only does it help them with their mental health problem but I think it has a broader impact on their lives, on their relationships, on their work. On their life more generally.   We hear that a lot from people going to mindfulness classes. That it's helped them with why they first came. So, when I ran mindfulness classes for depression on a regular basis, I would give people a form at the beginning and I'd say, "What are the three reasons why you want to attend this class?" I would say 99% of people would say, as their primary reason, "I don't want to get depressed again." Then they would have a couple of other reasons which were variants of that.   When you then ask them at the end of the class what did they get out if it, it actually looks rather different. In fact, we wrote a paper in the BABCP journal and the title of the paper was a quote from one of the participants who said, "It changed me in just about every way possible."   By starting to see his life through his mind and his life through a different lens, not only was the depression transformed but actually relationships were transformed, his work was transformed, in good ways and bad.   I remember one participant once telling me that he had had Pot Noodles every day for lunch for years. What we ask people to do in a mindfulness class is to bring their full awareness to something that they do every day in a routine way.   He came back and he said, "I'm really upset because I've discovered I hate Pot Noodles. (Laughs) They're chemically, they don't taste nice, it feels like I'm polluting my body. This awareness has ruined my enjoyment of Pot Noodles!" So, it changes the way we interact with many aspects of our life, I think.   Lucy: I asked Chris about some of what was hard about practising.   Chris: Halfway through the course, I was troubled because I was thinking about things and reading things to do with the course. Trying to take on board what we were being told and explained. It felt almost as though mindfulness was just about lying back and letting everything happen that happens. Not getting worked up and not caring about issues.   Having spent time thinking this concern through, I realised that that was a misunderstanding on my part. I think there is a mindful way to express disagreement. There's a mindful way to resist. There's a mindful way to oppose. I hope that I can find that when the need arises, without either being aggressive or objectionable or whatever to the person I'm speaking to.   Equally, particularly in my own health circumstances, not allowing that expression to be at the cost of my own heart health. So, not getting worked up by stuff, losing it, venting my disagreement with somebody and my blood pressure going through the roof.   I'm 60. I'm a man. In society, and certainly in my generation, we have been, in the world of work particularly, expected to be fairly direct. At times, aggressive and so on. The process of this therapy has helped me to see how damaging those approaches are in our interaction with one another. And also in our interaction with the people we care for.   Lucy: The impact of mindfulness is far reaching and varied. It's currently offered to MPs in Parliament, prisoners in high-security settings and now Willem's team are involved in researching whether teaching it to young people can help prevent the onset of depression.   When mindfulness is so widespread, what are Willem's concerns for its use?  Willem: I think one of the challenges for the mindfulness-based area is to proceed carefully and with humility. Because mindfulness-based approaches have been in the media quite a lot, and I think there are quite a lot of strong advocates of mindfulness, there can sometimes be... The enthusiasm gets ahead of the evidence.   One of the challenges for the mindfulness area is to actually progress in line with the evidence and not to get too far ahead of ourselves.   Lucy: Some people talk about, 'McMindfulness' don't they? It's a term that's used.   Willem: Yeah. 'McMindfulness' is a term I've heard quite a lot. I think it's a real caution, isn't it, to think about, "If I'm going to offer mindfulness to this group of people in this context, what is the best format? What's the best way to do this? There's quite a lot of pressure in the health service to conserve resources. What is the minimum amount? The smallest format to effect this change?" That is a legitimate question. Of course it's a legitimate question.   My own view is that, actually, the mind is a tremendously complex organ. If we are going to look at changes which are transformative, that can't be done with a sticking plaster. It can't be done with a brief intervention.   I think some of these interventions, like helping somebody with a long history of depression stay well in the long-term, aren't going to be done with a sticking plaster or a really short form. We need sometimes to accept that, actually, this is going to be an intervention that takes more time, more energy, more effort.   Chris: It's incredibly beneficial. It just makes you feel better. On occasion, not unusually, if things... we all have bad days now and again. If I've practised for half an hour or so, it's as though—and there may have been no change in the weather—the sun has come out. That might sound airy fairy or whatever but that's the only way I can describe it.   It's been an incredible support through a very difficult period. It's one which I am sure has helped me deal with issues. It's something which I want to continue with into the future because I like the effects that it can bring. And, through one or two comments by my partner and family members, in their view it's having a positive effect, as well! (Laughs)   Willem: I once had a client who said to me... She had had a heart and lung bypass and a history of depression. She said she would rather have another heart and lung bypass than another episode of depression. Absolutely. Depression is a devastating disorder.   Many people's lives are really badly affected and, in some cases, ended through suicide. I think a world without the devastating effects of depression, where approaches like CBT and MBCT help people to recover and stay well, is absolutely an aspiration for us to work towards.   Somebody once described mindfulness as being a bit like a lemon. It's really difficult to describe what mindfulness is. But actually, you can get a sense of what it is by tasting it. I think for people to actually experience mindfulness, to maybe buy a book like Mindfulness: Finding Peace in a Frantic World, which has got a CD set in the back, and trying it for themselves. And actually trusting their own experience.   I think mindfulness is one of those things where practices are offered and people are then invited to learn from their experience. So, try it and see what you think.   That being said, if you're looking for a teacher, I think it's really important to find a good teacher who can teach it well. The BABCP website has got a 'Find a therapist' tab on it, which is a way of finding a good CBT therapist, some of whom are now also trained in mindfulness-based approaches.   Lucy: So, that's all from me. I hope that's been helpful in understanding more about what mindfulness-based therapies are. For more information, have a look at the show notes on the podcast website, which has got loads of links to lots of resources, including some links to free mindfulness meditations that you can try for yourself.   This is actually the last episode in the current series about different forms of CBT. We do have one more bonus episode coming up for you, though. A short episode of interviews recorded at a special outreach event in a local Glasgow mosque up at the BABCP conference in the summer. That will be out next week.   Meanwhile, if you've got any feedback or ideas for future podcast topics, please do let us know. I'd definitely like to make some more for you and I'd really like it if they were on topics that you wanted to hear about.   Please share the podcast with people you think it might be useful for and rate us on iTunes if you've enjoyed the show. It helps other people to find us.   This podcast is brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, or BABCP. For more information about BABCP and about cognitive behavioural therapies, including a list of BABCP accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com.   Thanks to  Gabe Stebbing for the title music, Origamibiro for the incidental music, Professor Willem Kuyken and Chris Henry for speaking to me and Eliza Lomas for the editing consultation.     END OF AUDIO     

How do we develop patterns of thinking and behaving from our earlier experiences? What is Schema Focussed Therapy and how does it fit in the wider family of CBTs? Dr Gill Heath and Mary speak to Dr Lucy Maddox.  Show Notes and Transcript:  Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP If you're interested in finding out more... Websites BABCP has a Schema Therapy Special Interest Group which you can find out about here: https://www.babcp.com/Membership/SIG/Schema-Therapy.aspx The Schema Therapy Society has more information about the therapy and therapists, and some more resources: https://schematherapysociety.org Books The book we talk about in the episode is the first one: Young, J. E., & Klosko, J. S. (1994). Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthough Program to End Negative Behavior... and Feel Great Again. Penguin. Young, J. E., Klosko, J. S., & Weishaar, M. E. (2003). Schema therapy: A practitioner's guide. Guilford Press. Rafaeli, E., Bernstein, D. P., & Young, J. (2010). Schema therapy: Distinctive features. Routledge. Transcript Lucy: This is Let's Talk About CBT, and I'm Dr Lucy Maddox. This series of podcasts, brought to you by the BABCP, explores cognitive behavioural therapy, or CBT, what it is, what it's not, and how it can be useful.   We've been thinking about the wider family of CBTs, and today we're going to be thinking about schema-focused therapy.   For this episode, like the others in the series, I spoke to somebody who has experienced schema therapy for themselves, as well as someone who is used to delivering schema therapy. I went to London to speak with Mary and Dr Gill Heath.   Mary has been having schema therapy for a while, and she took the time to explain to me what it has been like for her and how she sees it.  Mary: My understanding of schema therapy is it's like separating out the different ways that you think about things and so like looking at the different parts of yourself and the different ways of approaching things. So, like the part that is just furiously angry at things, or the part that's just really, really, really sad and doesn't really understand why.   It's separating those out and going, "Okay, when I'm feeling that, what is that?" so like, "What do I want when I'm feeling that? What are those? What's underneath those feelings? What am I trying to get to?"  Lucy: I also spoke to Mary's therapist, Gill Heath, clinical psychologist and co-director of Schema Therapy Associates. She told me some of the things that she likes about using this approach.  Gill: It's really flexible. In my experience, it seems to work with quite a broad range of issues because you can really understand the person's individual patterns. The techniques, the things like the imagery, and the chair work, and being real with a person, they work with all sorts of different patterns.    I feel like, pretty much whatever someone brings in, I can understand it in schema terms, and that's helpful. I've found that clients really like it, too. They seem to make changes a bit more quickly and at a deeper level for me than when I was practising using other approaches.  Lucy: Now, if you've ever studied child psychology, you might recognise the word 'schema' from the work of a researcher called Jean Piaget. Piaget thought we all develop schemas, or frameworks, about how the world works, and that we either assimilate new ideas into these frameworks or we change the framework to make sense of new information.    In schema therapy, the therapist is working with you to identify what your schemas are and to spot ones that might not be helpful. One of the things that I find interesting about schema therapy is that it brings together approaches which are often seen as quite different.   Gill explained some of the different influences on the therapy, and the theory behind it.  Gill: Schema therapy is what we call an 'integrative therapy'. That means it has taken the strongest elements of more well-established psychotherapy, such as CBT and psychodynamic therapy. It has, kind of, pulled them together into a coherent whole, so it has pulled out some of the strengths that CBT has in really focusing in on thinking patterns. That's very much testimony to its CBT roots.    It's borrowed from other sides, such as I don't know if any of your listeners will have come across an approach called 'gestalt therapy'. That therapy talks about different parts of yourself. Psychodynamic theory has some very useful ideas about how relationships work and how attachments work.   So, schema therapy has brought together those different principles and different techniques from different areas, but within a unified… It does have its own unified theory for how problems develop and how to change them.   It's really designed for longer-standing problems, and its primary goal is to help you get your needs met by healing your schemas rather than just reducing your symptoms.  Lucy: What's a schema?  Gill: A schema is like a lens that colours how we see the world and how we relate to ourselves and other people. Schemas develop in childhood and adolescence when certain core needs go unmet. For example, if you were criticised excessively as a child, you might learn to think of yourself as inadequate.    You might try and cope with that feeling, either by avoiding challenge, for example, or you might try and overcompensate to try and prove your worth. When these patterns become strong enough, they're sort of like coping mechanisms, in a way. They can become almost like different sides of yourself, like a state of mind or a mode that you get into when your schemas are triggered.  Lucy: Do we all have schemas?  Gill: Yes, all of us have schemas. Sometimes they're stronger, sometimes they're weaker. Sometimes we have a really good awareness of them, just without therapy even, and we know how to deal with them. Sometimes they come out under particularly difficult situations – situations that we hadn't previously experienced. For example, you might lose a job, and then something that wasn't an issue before, like a failure schema, might come up for you much more strongly.  Lucy: Are they always unhelpful, or can you have helpful schemas as well?   Gill: Yes, you can have helpful schemas. Fortunately, we do, all of us – all of us, even if you're really struggling with a lot of things – everyone has a healthy side, something called your 'healthy adult'. That healthy side is the part of you that watches everything, watches over everything inside yourself and in your life, and it's trying to pull you in a good direction. Schema therapy really works to try and strengthen that healthy side.  Lucy: So, just what is it like in the room? What can you expect if you're thinking of going for schema therapy?  Mary: It's just you and the therapist. I know she does things with bits of paper, but mostly it's just talking.   What I found with the schema therapy stuff is it gives you a lot of scope for just feeling how you're feeling, or saying how you feel, and not trying to necessarily relate it to your childhood or not. So, it's not backwards-looking, but then it's also not just trying to fix broken bits. It's really looking at how what you're feeling works and when it comes to you.   One thing that we do quite a lot is thinking about, like, when I start to get overwhelmed by particular thoughts or feelings, what has happened around me? So, like, "Where am I? What have I just done? What have I just heard? What have I just said, or what has just been said to me?" so that you can work out ways to protect yourself in future so that you can work out: "All right, what are the kinds of things that make me feel like this? How can I either avoid them in quite a straightforward way, (Laughs) or how can I think about ways that, if they come up in future, I won't then spiral downwards if I hear people saying those things or if I'm in those places? What can I do to make this not happen to me again?"   It's really about, like, looking forward to looking after yourself in the long-term, and I find that's really helpful.   Sometimes I've come with no clear idea of, like, any of the thoughts that I have. I'm just like I've just come in, and I've just been full of sadness and full of, like, the knowledge that I'm really, really struggling to do all of the normal day-to-day things. There's no clear reason for that. I don't understand why and so I've just come in and just spewed a lot of that out.   Then my therapist has been able to separate that out and go, "All right, let's put that on a piece of paper, and take each of those things and work out what part each of them is. Like there's part of that that's really vulnerable, that's really hurt, and there's part of that that's really angry. There's part of that that's watching yourself constantly, waiting for you to make a mistake."   So, some of what it is – and particularly, I think, with the writing it down on paper – is turning those really difficult-to-grasp feelings into words so that you can then think about them in a way that enables you to say, "Is that really true?" Like, "How can I counter that? How can I work with that?" It turns it from something that is just this intense blackness around you, into a series of different thoughts that have words attached to them. That's much easier to understand.   When I first turned up to see to see Dr Heath, pretty much the first few sessions, either I sat without saying very much or I just cried. Or I just said lots and lots of things, but they weren't very clear. So it didn't require me to have very much understanding about what was going on inside me. She just let me be and feel those things that I hadn't, really, that I'd been feeling for a really long time but hadn't really been giving space to, yeah.  Gill: In the first few sessions, what your therapist will be doing is asking lots of questions and really being a psychological detective, in a way, to try and figure out which of your schemas are most linked to your current problems.   So, the focus is on the things that you want to change, you want to make a difference with. The therapist is thinking, "Okay, so what schemas are going on here? Yes, what are the particular patterns? What lenses are going on that are influencing how you're reacting in your life?"   They also try and figure out with you how your schemas developed, how you learned to think and feel in the way that you are, and also what's keeping your problems going now. Why hasn't it resolved itself, in a way? What is the block? Your therapist will map this out with you, generally on paper. This can help you spot your schemas coming up in your day-to-day life.  Lucy: What sort of names would you give the different schemas? Just to give people a flavour of if they came along and they might be describing a particular kind of thinking problem. Have you got any examples of something like that?  Gill: Yes, sure. Some common examples of schemas are, there's a schema called 'emotional deprivation'. That's a schema where you have a sense that you don't really matter to other people and that they might not be there to meet your emotional needs consistently.   Another example might be a failure schema, where you just feel, even if you're outwardly quite successful, you feel like you're on the brink of failure. You're expecting that to come up for you. Or some people have mistrust schema, where often, if they weren't treated very well when they were young, they're wary and on the lookout for that pattern to repeat itself. They might be a bit guarded or that kind of thing.   Lucy: Great, so sometimes, I guess, are they schemas that we all might have a little bit of, but sometimes they might end up running the show for someone?  Gill: Exactly, yes. Most of the patterns that are seen within these different schemas, they're very human. They're trying to predict, and control and understand the world, but they've become too dominant and too inflexible to learning that they might not be relevant in this particular situation. They're unbalanced, in a sense.  Lucy: What happens after you map out somebody's schemas with them?  Gill: Then you try and work to develop the person's healthy adult side, this overarching part that we all have that can watch what's going on, and help them react differently, more adaptively, to get their needs met.   As the therapist, you're also aware of what their needs are. You do your best to meet those needs or to feed back to the person if they're reacting in ways in their relationships that are off-putting or stopping other people meeting their needs, if that makes sense.  Lucy: So, you might use the relationship that you have with the client to highlight some schemas that are in action.  Gill: Exactly. Like, you try and be as open as possible about how the schemas impact on you, as a human being; to be as real as possible, really. In my experience, clients really appreciate that. It makes it feel more authentic.  Lucy: There are some specific techniques that schema therapy uses. These techniques are ones that some other types of therapy use as well, and one of these is imagery.  Gill: Imagery is a technique that's very simple, really, where the therapist asks the client to close their eyes and picture a situation. That can be for things that have happened in the past, or in the present, or even imagining things that might happen in the future.   Imagery is a very powerful technique. There's a lot of research showing that, when you imagine something, it puts you more in touch with your emotions. I think many of us have had the experience where you might remember something from childhood in an image, and tear up instantly, in a way that you might not just through talking about it.   There's also really a lot of research here that fits with my clinical experience, too, my experience with clients that, when you practise changes or you intervene in an image – you change an image so that someone's needs are better met – it has a really powerful effect.  Lucy: Another technique is chair work.  Gill: Chair work is a great technique for helping people understand and separate out these different sides that we've been talking about.  Lucy: So, it's bit like you've got them on different chairs in the room with you?  Gill: Yes, exactly. Yes, or you can draw it out, or you can be quite creative with it.    Mary: One thing that I found really helpful, actually, that she does is when I'm talking about separating out the bits, so like saying, "Okay, there's part of me that is feeling really upset, and there another part of me that's going, 'Why are you feeling upset? What's the point? How does that help?'" So, separating that out and going, "What's that part saying? Let's put that part on a different chair, and look at it and go, 'Okay, yes, that's a different part, and that part is shouting at me. That is not fair.'" (Laughs)     I've found that particularly helpful for when there's a part of you that's really attacking yourself, that's really going, like, "You're making these terrible decisions. You're doing things wrong," that's attacking you, to take that out and go, "All right, let's say that's another person who's saying those things. Those are really, really awful things to say to someone. Those are really nasty things to say to someone."   So, it can be really useful to separate that out and go, "What would you say back if someone was saying that to you? What would you say if someone was saying that – those things – to someone that you love?" and like, "How would you experience it from that perspective?" Then go, "Actually, that part is so attacking." So, it's quite helpful to have it physically separated out like it's another person who's shouting at you, and you are going, "I don't deserve that. I don't." I've found it really helpful.   Lucy: I asked Gill about what the evidence base is like for schema therapy.  Gill: I think schema therapy is most effective where there's a strong schema or belief system that resists change. So, really, despite your best efforts to reason your way out of the problem, it still seems to take over, no matter what.   For example, you might have struggled with problems such as low self-confidence, perfectionism, mistrust, anger, feeling very anxious or depressed. Nothing you do seems to shift it. You keep coming back to the same place.    There's good evidence for the effectiveness of schema therapy for more severe and entrenched problems, such as personality disorders. In these studies, therapists were helping people with a wide range of issues, such as emotional regulation, very low self-esteem, interpersonal clashes, severe avoidance, dependency, and problems functioning in their day-to-day life generally.   I think the research teams thought that, if schema therapy could help with these harder-to-treat problems, it might be more effective with other more specific problems, too.   More recent research supports this idea, with smaller-scale studies coming out with good preliminary results for working with specific disorders, like agoraphobia, substance misuse, depression, eating disorders. So, that's quite promising.   In those problems, there's a wide range of mechanisms that are at play in those difficulties. I think they all share strong belief systems at play, strong mechanisms at play that keep these symptoms going.   For example, say you suffered from, say, borderline personality disorder. At the centre of that is a fear of abandonment, and it's a strong belief system that people will abandon you. Schema therapy has a way of working with that and healing that schema so that you feel safer in relationships. That would underpin its effectiveness for that particular kind of problem, and it will work in different ways with different disorders, according to what the key belief systems, what the key schemas are.   But I do think more research is needed. I think every therapy should prove its worth. Schema therapy is on its way to doing that, but there's still some way to go.   Lucy: Borderline personality disorder in itself is quite a contentious diagnosis in some ways, so just to acknowledge that, really.   Gill: Yes.  Lucy: I don't know if you want to add anything on that?  Gill: Yes. Personality disorders, they can be used with very pejorative connotations. In my view, we all have patterns in how we relate to ourselves, how we relate to other people. When someone might be diagnosed with a personality disorder, it's more that those patterns have got stronger and more entrenched.    They often just haven't had the conditions or the help they need to start to change those patterns. So, I don't see someone who has been diagnosed with that kind of problem as fundamentally different from anyone else. It's just that the issues have become more entrenched and more severe, but we all have these patterns.  Lucy: In their book about schema therapy, called 'Reinventing Your Life', Jeff Young and Janet Klosko refer to schemas as 'life traps'. They say, "A life trap is a pattern which starts in childhood and reverberates throughout life." They recognise that these early beliefs provide us with a sense of predictability and certainty. They write that "They are comfortable and familiar. In an odd sense, they make us feel at home."   This is partly why schemas are so hard to change. In the same book, Jeff Young and Janet Klosko write about how schema therapy involves continually confronting yourself.   Mary: I wouldn't want to suggest it's easy, like if you're feeling really anxious, if you're feeling really unhappy, it's not easy to get out of that.   One of the things I found really frustrating when I was looking at doing – when I was doing – different kinds of therapy, was people's expectation that you get better really fast. Definitely, definitely, I feel much better than I did years ago. Definitely, I'm much more in control of myself than I was years ago, but it takes different time for different people.  Gill: One of the things I like about the therapy is that it has enough structure that you keep a focus on what you're hoping to change, but there isn't a rulebook on, "You must only have five sessions, or you must only have 10 sessions."   Obviously, if you're working with someone in the NHS, there may be external constraints around that, but you can talk with your therapist about your needs. It's very led by what your needs are.   I'd say most commonly you might be seeing a client for 20 sessions or longer, particularly if you've been struggling with something for a long time or if your problems are a bit more severe.  Lucy: What advice would you give anyone who's listening to this podcast and thinking they might be interested in having some schema therapy?  Gill: I often recommend reading 'Reinventing Your Life' by Jeffrey Young and Janet Klosko. It's widely available on internet bookstores. It's very reasonable. It's a really easy read, but I think it gives a very clear impression of the therapy. I think if it resonates with you, then you're likely to get on well with schema therapy.    I suppose the other thing is also no therapy is the right therapy for everyone and so, particularly at the start, in the first few sessions, I'm listening out for when it's not hitting the spot for someone.   For example, sometimes people, they don't want an approach that's more emotional. They don't want their therapist getting that involved. They want something, perhaps, more concrete, more cognitive. In that case, I'll try and help them find a good match for what they're looking for.  Lucy: For Mary, it has been a helpful experience. She had some advice for anyone thinking about it.  Mary: These days I notice, when I start feeling those, like when I start sliding downwards, when I start falling back into depressions or falling back into self-hating things, I notice that. I notice that in time to step back and say, "Okay, this is happening. I know this is happening," like, "I don't need to panic about it happening, because there are things I can do." I notice it. Yeah, I notice it in time to then give myself space to do things that can either stop it from happening or can mitigate it.   Can I look around and go, "Am I recognising these triggers? Am I recognising that this person I'm talking to is making me feel really unhappy? Therefore, can I stop talking to them?" Or, "Can I recognise that this situation at work is really awful and that's actually not my fault? If I stop being in this situation, then maybe it'll be better." Or, "Can I recognise that I just feel miserable and I just need to spend the day drinking tea and reading a book?" That's fine. (Laughs) That doesn't mean everything is terrible. It just means I need to do that for a day.   Really, it is hard to remember that, in order to not be overwhelmed by that, you have to do something actively. (Laughs) It doesn't just happen. You have to go, "Okay, I worked on this. I did this. What were the things I did that made it help?"  Lucy: It's quite hard work, isn't it, when you're in that state of mind, as well? That's so difficult.   Mary: Yeah.  Lucy: It's like the opposite of what you feel like, so, yeah.  Mary: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, but that's actually why… That's why the physical components of schema therapy have helped, I think. That's why the, like, putting the part of you that goes, "You're terrible at everything you do" onto a chair, or putting it into a circle on a page.   Because when you're feeling – when you start to feel – awful, you don't necessarily remember the specific things that you talked about. You don't necessarily remember those kinds of things, but it's much easier to remember: "Okay, last time I said that was over there, and I looked at it over there. Then it wasn't in me. It was something that was outside of me and was shouting at me." The physicality of that helps you – helps you that, when you're in another situation where you're not in the therapist's office and you can't put it on another chair, you can go, "Okay, but say this was outside of me, how would I react to that?"  Lucy: Then anything else that you would want people to know or that you want to add about what the experience has been like?  Mary: What I would say is, if you start a kind of therapy or you start with a therapist and you feel like it's not working, stop. Go somewhere else. Don't hang around because you feel like you should try it longer, or you feel like you shouldn't let your therapist down, or you feel like it ought to be working, even though it isn't. Just stop.   Just don't be discouraged by therapy as a whole, but go somewhere else. That therapist doesn't work for you. I really wish I'd known that much earlier. So, I would say, "Try different things," absolutely. I would encourage you to try schema therapy, but also try other things.     I guess it's worth adding that it covers quite a range of different things. I talked about being quite unhappy when I first started doing therapy. Then more recently I'm actually really okay, in a way that I really, really wasn't when I started this, but I still find it helpful.   I still find it helpful to come along and talk about the things that are going on in my life, and the ways in which I'm approaching making decisions and thinking about, when I'm making those decisions, what's coming in. Am I making those decisions based on what I want, or am I making those decisions based on what I think other people want from me?   Or whether you feel that you're being totally overwhelmed and a lot of things are really terrible, or whether you feel like you just need a bit of help getting a handle on things, I think it can be helpful at both ends of the spectrum, really.  Lucy: That's all from me. I hope that has been helpful in understanding more about what schema therapy is. For more information, have a look at the show notes on the podcast website. It has got lots of links to other resources, like websites and books that you can read if you're interested.        This podcast is brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, or BABCP. For more information about BABCP and about cognitive behavioural therapies in general, including a list of BABCP-accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com.   Thanks to Gabe Stebbing for the title music, Doctor Turtle for the incidental music, Dr Gill Heath and Mary for speaking to me, and Eliza Lomas for editing consultation.   Any feedback or ideas for future podcast topics, please, do let us know, and please rate us on iTunes if you've enjoyed the show. It helps other people to find us.  END OF AUDIO   

What is Acceptance & Commitment Therapy and what's it like to have it? How can we live a life in line with our most important values? Dr Joe Oliver, Gary Bridgeman, Dr Graciela Rovner and Dr Eric Morris talk to Dr Lucy Maddox. Show Notes and Transcript:  Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP If you're interested in finding out more about the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, or about Acceptance and Commitment Therapy here are some resources: Websites babcp.com is the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies website and it links to the CBT register of accredited CBT therapists in the UK (or go straight to cbtregisteruk.com). BABCP also has an ACT special interest group which members can join. https://www.actmindfully.com.au/free-stuff/ is a resource page on Russ Harris' website. Russ Harris has also written books on ACT (see below).  https://contextualconsulting.co.uk/resources houses some of the resources that Joe Oliver refers to in the podcast including some youtube video links.  https://contextualscience.org/clinical_resources houses some ACT resources for clinicians and has more information about trainings.  https://www.babcp.com/Therapists/Compassion-Fatigue.aspx has some extra resources if you're a therapist feeling in need of support.  Books Oliver, J., Hill, J. & Morris, E. (2015) ACTivate Your Life: Using acceptance and mindfulness to build a life that is rich, fulfilling and fun. Robinson. Harris, R. (2011). The happiness trap. ReadHowYouWant. com. Hayes, S. C., Strosahl, K. D., & Wilson, K. G. (2011). Acceptance and commitment therapy: The process and practice of mindful change. Guilford Press. Hayes, S. C. (2005). Get out of your mind and into your life: The new acceptance and commitment therapy. New Harbinger Publications. Jackson Brown, F. & Gillard, D. (2016) Acceptance and Commitment Therapy for Dummies. Wiley. Papers Hayes, S. C., Luoma, J. B., Bond, F. W., Masuda, A., & Lillis, J. (2006). Acceptance and commitment therapy: Model, processes and outcomes. Behaviour research and therapy, 44(1), 1-25. There are also several podcasts about ACT - if you search for acceptance and commitment therapy podcast you will come up with a few different ones.    Transcript  Lucy: This is Let's Talk About CBT and I'm Dr Lucy Maddox.   This series of podcasts, brought to you by the BABCP, explores cognitive behavioural therapy or CBT. What it is, what it's not, and how it can useful.   Today we're thinking about acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT. This is one of the wider family of CBTs.   For this episode, like the others in this series, I tried to find people who've experienced having acceptance and commitment therapy for themselves as well as people who are used to delivering ACT.   We've got that but unusually in this episode lots of the people who volunteered to speak about what it's like to have ACT are also ACT therapists. I don't think this is a coincidence. There's something about this approach where experiencing using the concepts in your own life is an important part of being a therapist.   I started off by meeting with Dr Joe Oliver, clinical psychologist, co-director for UCL CBT for psychosis postgraduate diploma and director of Contextual Consulting which is an ACT based consultancy.  I started off by asking him what is ACT?   Joe: The acronym starts to unpack a little bit of what it is. So that the key piece about acceptance and then sitting right alongside commitment when things get really big and feel overwhelming. Very instinctual perhaps to try and want to push those experiences away or not have them.   So the acceptance part is helping us to make room and space for, breathe into and allow those experiences. Crucially so that we can do the commitment bit, which is to take action, to do things as we might choose to based on things that are important to us, things that matter to us.   Lucy: So like if you're feeling really sad, for example, would ACT say that there's something about trying to accept that you're feeling sad? Is that the sort of experience that you're talking about?   Joe: Yeah, exactly, yeah. It's kind of it's a tricky word, right, like particularly feelings like sadness or maybe anxiety that if most of us were being honest with ourselves we wouldn't say we necessarily warm to.   Lucy: No, rather not have it. Yeah.   Joe: Rather not have them. Yeah, exactly. But at the same time there's a piece of this model talks about making room and space for the parts of those experiences that are natural, the human part of experience. Which is to say when things, of course, in life don't go as we want them to or important relationships end or people move away from us. Those feelings that arrive, including things like sadness, how, as much as perhaps we might want to push them away, there's a recognition of the normalness, the naturalness of those experiences.   Lucy: And so is there something about, does ACT think that it's actually more helpful to accept and that in some ways it can help us to feel that less, paradoxically or…?   Joe: Yeah. Paradoxically is a perfect word for it. Perfect because like a busy problem-solving mind could go, "Oh, ha, I know what I need to do. I need to accept it. And then I'll have it less." And yet it's not kind of quite that. It is and it isn't. Like it is, of course, that probably when we have a relationship to things like sadness that's more based on breathing into, metaphorically, or creating room and space for, or acceptance technically. That it's likely that we'll allow that to move through more to if it were like a stream or a river that rather than blocking it and damming it up we create some space and it allows us to move through of its own accord.   Of course that might mean sometimes that acceptance and turning towards may even in the short-term increase that feeling. But at the heart that we're helping people to have a more skilful response to those feelings, a more workable response.   It's also something for me personally that really resonates. And I don't know whether necessarily like that's always the metric for what's a good therapy. But I think for most of us that when we're living and breathing life we want things that we find are helpful and useful and do have a sense of resonance.   For me in my own life having an approach that helps me to recognise that sometimes struggle and fighting against and not having is a little less helpful versus just allowing emotions to be there or difficult experiences.   When I first came across that that was a really – it was a revelationary experience for me. It was something…  Lucy: Was it?   Joe: Yeah. Completely out of the blue. It hadn't really occurred to me that perhaps the way forward was not to not have these experiences but perhaps that they could kind of come with me.   Lucy: I guess it's a bit of a relief actually if we're not feeling like we have to push them away all the time. There's a bit of a sense of relief there as well.   Joe: Yeah. Exactly. So like a relief which is, well number one, maybe I don't need to use all that energy to not have it. And then number two maybe it's kind of okay for it to be there. It doesn't mean there's something missing or wrong or that we're broken for having these experiences. That it's just, it's a recognition, like a real deep recognition. "Hey, this is perhaps a part of, a normal part of human existence."   Lucy: How do you think, in your experience of working with people, it's most helpful? Are there particular problems that it particularly helps with or kind of particular situations that can be tricky?   Joe: So the model is versatile. Or also known as transdiagnostic. So it identifies a small set of key processes for understanding how we humans work. And particularly for where we as humans get stuck in life. Out there in the research world you see it get applied in all sorts of different areas. It's really like really, really broad. It's one of the hallmark features of ACT that people across the world in all sorts of settings will pick the model up, take these core set of processes and run with it in all sorts of interesting ways.   There's a couple of key things I think that are really important where ACT really applies. One, it asks questions about like what matters in life. It helps people to slow down for a moment and think about the things that they really care about. So and there's a good range of people I find that just either haven't had the opportunity to really think about that because life hasn't really afforded them that chance. Or it's been too busy or pain and suffering has been too great.   So those kind of people I think really, really appreciate that time for a real slowness and a steadiness where there's a deep curiosity about things that really matter to them. But not just like in an abstract way. Where someone's genuinely really interested in the things that matter, then I'll ask them to take action towards those. And that's quite a… for people I find it's both really scary because it's like a real new way of doing things, but at the same time really, really exhilarating. So that's for one group of people I think it's really, really important.   There's the other group too, I think for folks where they get really stuck in life. So it might be the case that they do know what's important to them. When I sit down and ask them, they will say, "Yeah, the relationships in my life really matter to me." Or, "Contributing in work is really, really meaningful to me and I'm doing that purposefully, I care about."   But the place they get stuck in is when unwanted feelings bubble up. Or thoughts that they really struggle with. And they're automatic pilot response that perhaps they've learned from way back when, growing up, or it's just the way they've always done things and the people they know, the culture they find themselves in, that happens to engender a way that just gets them stuck.  So that's the other kind of group of people I'd say broadly where I think they're stuck. Helping them to catch it a little. So mindfully slow down for a moment, notice what they're doing, and respond differently.   Lucy: What's the evidence base like for ACT?   Joe: Now there's been about 200 RCTs that have been done broadly showing good support for ACT.   Lucy: And is that sort of transdiagnostically again? So across lots of different types of tricky problem?   Joe: Yeah, lots of different types. So some of the best data is with chronic pain. So helping people who experience pain that doesn't respond to medication, that doesn't easily go away, that's one of the best places. Or at least certainly where there's the largest amount of evidence, number of studies so far. So that's an interesting place.   Another interesting place is really good evidence is at the moment for work stress. And then across the board like with things like depression, anxiety as you'd expect. And for me personally a lot of work has been with people with distressing psychosis. So there's now five or six trials now that have been done that have got some really, really promising results. You know, helping people get back on their feet after episodes of psychosis.   Lucy: Is there anything else you think people should know about ACT?   Joe: One of the things that I hear time and time again is that people feel very grateful for the resources that are out there that people are very free in sharing of things. So for those people who want to take it a little further or are interested there's a wealth of information to go out there and explore and try out. And of course books to read, but animations to watch or videos and things to check out on YouTube and people to connect with. There's a friendly Twitter space too with ACT, friendly people there.   Lucy: That sounds good.  Joe: Yeah. All sorts to things like that.   Lucy: I also spoke to Gary Bridgeman. Gary is himself an ACT coach who lives in Brussels and he's also had ACT himself.   I asked Gary what it was like to experience acceptance and commitment therapy.   Gary: It's really about exploring emotional roadblocks. It's really about understanding your thoughts and your emotions and fears. It's really about being in the moment rather than looking at the past or the future in great detail. And it feels very much in the moment, so rather than discussing lots of past events in my life it's more about how I'm feeling right now and what's going on for me right now.   There was one particular session where it was particularly kind of perspective changing for me. And I could feel a shift happen after the session. But also then after the session I could feel that shift happening for a couple of weeks that I kept going back to thinking about things in a different way.   And then from that point onwards, it's not like you can't sort of come to one session, walk out and think, "Right, everything's fine." But it was a perception shift that I started to look at the way that I was approaching life in a completely different way. And then from that then it kind of snowballed onwards.   We kind of built a metaphor together for how I was feeling. I kind of had this empty feeling inside. And I'd always tied that empty feeling to a loss of a parent when I was young. So and just talking about how that felt and how it felt in terms of what was that emptiness like. It was like a hole and going down into the hole and talking about I filled the hole up with things and how I could fill the hole differently from the inside rather than the outside.   I think the thinking had become locked in a particular story of myself. And locked in a particular way of trying to solve the feelings around that emptiness. But it enabled me just to look at it from a different way, that I could actually solve that emptiness from coming from the inside rather than it going from the outside.   It's not easy because in terms of the, you do sometimes have to sort of be prepared to face some emotional roadblocks that you have and some emotions that you have and not particularly… and some of the ones that you don't want, that you want to avoid. So sometimes it can be particularly draining and I felt sort of drained after a couple of sessions.   But equally it was still perspective shifting. I think with a good therapist who's doing ACT well can take you to a place that you don't realise you're going to go but also it feels safe.   It's an organising principle, it's a way to live your life which can cope with that kind of chaotic messiness that life has. So it becomes easier for you to cope with the peaks and troughs that life throws at you.   It doesn't mean that you get up and every day you're feeling great. I mean you still have those ups and downs. But I still get up and have a sense of wellbeing and even days where you have a bit of a low mood it's like, "Okay, well I have a little bit of low mood but because I'm using the principles of well my mood's going to change, I can understand it, I can just go and explore it and feel it and see what's happening. But I'm still just going to take an action base and a value that I've defined."  You feel more open. And you feel more able to engage and be with people.   For me now it's like my experiences like my thoughts are in my head but it's like they're in the room with me but they're at the other side of the room. It's like a conversation two people are having. And if I wanted to I could tune into them. I can go, "Oh that's… there we go, I can pay attention to that." Or I don't have to.  And because of that it just makes you a little bit more kind of willing to engage with people and be open towards them and share things with them because you make a connection then. And you're not so caught up in your own anxieties about that, making that connection. Thoughts are just thoughts and emotions are just emotions. And we really don't have to put any meaning around them unless we want to.   Lucy: I asked Gary about some of the exercises he thinks are most helpful.   Gary: Yeah, one of my favourite ones is trying to sort of look at your emotion and just really examine it with some curiosity and then change it, give it colours, shapes, give it some sort of physical form. And then take it outside your body and visualise it outside and then bring it back in again.   And I did that with myself, I do that kind of exercise quite a bit because of looking at some of the emotions I struggled with. It's very difficult to bring the emotion back into your body once you've visualised it being outside. But that process of bringing it back in is really the bit about teaching you how to accept and open up to your emotional experience rather than trying to fight it or struggle with it, that you can kind of sit with it. So that's one of my favourite ones for using.  Lucy: Another metaphor Gary liked was the chessboard.   Gary: Still being myself in several different contexts and I kind of explained that with a nice chessboard metaphor of your sense of self as the chessboard and everything, all the pieces of your life, all your drama and your struggles and your thoughts and feelings and everything going on are all the pieces. And they can wage that battle. But I can just sit back and look at it a little bit detached from it.   Lucy: I asked Gary what he thought the impact of having had acceptance and commitment therapy has been for his life.   Gary: So it enabled me to say, "Right, now this is the way I want to live my life now so I'm going to start living my life." You suddenly don't become some sort of guru or Buddha. I mean it still doesn't mean you don't react emotionally, you don't have emotional reactions. And sometimes you do react with emotion and sometimes you do say things and you think, "Right, that's just pure emotion coming out there. That's not me speaking the way that I'd like to speak."   But it's not as bad as it would be. I mean I noticed that with my partner when we have the usual arguments that partners have. When she says something and I'm like, "That's really triggered me," and I say something back. And I go, "Hold on a second." But you can catch it quicker rather than getting caught in that kind of spiralling negative argument that you sometimes have where you're just reacting to what the last person said.   Lucy: I asked Gary if he had any advice for someone who was thinking about having ACT.   Gary: I think really just try it. If you've tried other things, because I tried lots of different approaches. And some of them worked and some are successful. But I never really kind of solved this, the kind of feelings that I had about myself inside.   Meditation and mindfulness worked. They kind of reduced my anxiety but I still had the kind of emptiness feelings inside. I hadn't really resolved it yet.   And, yeah, if you haven't tried anything else then try it and see if it works. And experience it because you have to experience it to see the kind of shifts that you can make. And you can make those shifts quite quickly if you commit to doing the process.   Lucy: I also spoke to Graciela Rovner. President of the ACT Association in Sweden, Graciela is also a physiotherapist and ACT trainer and she has recently had ACT couples therapy with her husband, Stefan.   Graciela told me about her and her husband's experience of having this online ACT-based couples therapy including her initial doubts about the process.   Graciela: Of course you enter such a couple thing like, "Okay, is this going to help or is this not going to help? Are we going to have more discussions?" You know? It's like explaining, "Okay, where do you get stuck or with yourself or with your partner?" But there was quite quickly very normalising. And I think it's one point in ACT that you never feel that someone is talking to you from up there. So we are like more in the level.   So this was a sort of feeling like, "Okay. Nice." I think it was a lot of work about how to communicate. But I think it's also how to communicate what happened in a soft way, open way, with more perspective, looking to myself and my part on it in a very soft and empathetic way and compassionate way.   And also with that open for the same empathy and compassion for the short comings that we always see the other one, right? So it was a very nice opening and taking perspective of the situation and they talk about soft emotions, and soft feelings, and soft words and being more aware about how can we still communicate but in a soft way. A more loving way.   It's a really minimal intervention I would say but still it opens up a new way to see things. Being more aware of what's going on and seeing the situation from a different perspective.   For me it has been a really very, very interesting experience. Both of us, the partner in my marriage is 30 years old. So it is not that – I mean it's quite interesting to know that you can have such a little intervention and help quite an old relationship with children and so.  And it's always like okay, like sometimes we can wonder who helps the therapist? We help others and then sometimes when we need help it's difficult to find it.   Until I found ACT and acceptance and commitment therapy and this kind of line of therapy that is really non-stigmatising and more normalising that we all suffer in a certain way. So before that it was very difficult to ask for help.   Everyone suffers. Even the one that will look up and say, "Wow, such a successful person." But this person may be suffering as much as we are suffering and we know that. I mean so why do we really need to hide that? Why can't…?   I mean the real meeting between us is when we can show ourselves vulnerable, right? So I think that to open up to your own vulnerability and then recognise that, "Okay, if I feel alone with this or I feel stuck with this, there is help to get."   To go to a psychologist is not because we are crazy. It's because we just need a couple of tools more in our toolbox I will say. A relationship, a marriage of 30 years can get support over such a short intervention. I mean, try it. (Laughs) Do it. If you're stuck, yeah.   Lucy: Finally I spoke to Eric Morris, clinical psychologist and ACT therapist. Eric now lives in Australia. This is a pretty international episode.   Eric agreed that there's something a bit different about ACT which might mean it's even more likely that ACT therapists will also be open to using the techniques a lot for themselves.   Eric: So what I like about the ACT model is it's not a model of dysfunction and disorder. It's really a model of what humans have in common. As a model of like helping people psychologically, there's no othering in it. It's like I participate and I experience many of the same things that my clients do in terms of the process.   And sure, some of the folk I help have had more than their fair share of pain and trauma. And yet some of what amplifies and intensifies their problems are the same things that can do that for me too.   Lucy: Eric remembered talking to Joe Oliver who we met at the start of this episode about ACT.   Eric: And so looping back to why I was keen to talk about this with friends like Joe is like, "Wow, this is different. One exciting piece there was, 'Ah, it's a model for me too.'"   Lucy: I asked Eric about the effects of ACT on his own life. I knew it had played a part in making his decision to move to Australia. But he also told me about another big life decision it had impacted on.   Eric: Yeah. Well, I mean the model has enabled me to make a number of big decisions in my life. Well, big and small decisions. I mean it is also because of the ACT model, being open to uncertainty and doubt that I leant into becoming a parent. I mean that also for me with my history. I honestly was afraid of becoming a father. And parenthood has its moments. Continues to, you know? (Laughs)   But it was because I was at an ACT workshop and I connected with my fears and doubts about myself at that time and that I turned toward, yeah, as a direction. And it wasn't, "No, I don't want to have children." It was, "I won't be good enough." And I found a way of being with those fears. They didn't have to disappear. I mean I'm still afraid but I'm not running away.   So moving to Australia was, yeah, another big thing. That was a funny one because probably out of the members of my family I was the one least keen to move back to Australia. I mean I loved living in the United Kingdom and I loved living in London and I was very caught up with my job and the opportunities that it afforded and, yeah, and status and things like that.  And so letting go of that deliberately, choosing to step into who knows what, the ACT model helped with that.    Lucy: Eric talked about the stories that we have about ourselves.   Eric: Yeah, that process of being invited to brood and ruminate and really be lost in a story about yourself that, yeah, you enjoy, but also it can be sort of like sort of chains upon you.   We love stories as humans and like some of those stories are great and then, or great for a while in the way they outlive their usefulness and they don't go away. Can you step out of the stories that you have? Or the stories other people have that they've given you. Can you be with what this feels like now?   And, of course, noticing that may not necessarily feel good. As you let go and you are where you are. Yeah, I mean I got to be a really engaged father with my son who was four. And I worked less for a while and I really got to spend some time with him that I wouldn't have in the old story.   You can change, I guess, your relationship with your sense of vulnerability. And you might find in a number of circumstances that actually what looked like a threat to you, being vulnerable, might actually be a strength.   Lucy: Acceptance and commitment therapy tries to help us feel less caught up with some of the stories that we have about ourselves. And one of the things it does is to try to help us identify what our most important values are in how we want to live our lives.   Eric: Who are you? What are you about? And for me it stripped back some of those layers of stories and I discovered new things that I was about. By being willing to be where I was.   Lucy: I hope that's helped give a flavour about ACT. There's lots more information in the show notes about this. And there's also a special link for therapists if you might be feeling in need of support.   Next time we'll be thinking about another member of the wider CBT family. So do tune in for that.   This podcast is brought to you by the British Association of Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies or BABCP.   For more information about BABCP and about cognitive behavioural therapies in general, including a list of BABCP accredited therapists, check out BABCP.com.   Thanks to Gabriel Stebbing for the title music, Dr Turtle for the incidental music, Joe Oliver, Graciela Rovner, Gary Bridgeman and Eric Morris for speaking to me, and Eliza Lomas for editing consultation.   Any feedback or ideas, please do let us know. And please rate us iTunes if you've enjoyed the show.     END OF AUDIO 

Couldn't we all be a little kinder to ourselves? Find out how self-compassion can influence us and hear about how compassion focussed therapy helped Chris with depression. Prof. Paul Gilbert and Chris Winson talk to Dr Lucy Maddox. Show Notes and Transcript:  Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP If you're interested in finding out more about the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, or about Compassion Focussed Therapy here are some resources... Websites babcp.com is the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies website and it links to the CBT register of accredited CBT therapists in the UK (or go straight to cbtregisteruk.com). BABCP also has a Compassion special interest groups which members can join. https://compassionatemind.co.uk/ is the website of the Compassionate Mind Foundation.  https://underwaterbreathes.wordpress.com/ is Chris Winson's blog.  On Twitter, the hashtag #365daysofcompassion was created by Chris and connects you to other people using principles from CFT to help with everyday life.  Books Gilbert, P. (2010). Compassion focused therapy: Distinctive features. Routledge.  Welford, M. (2016). Compassion focused therapy for dummies. John Wiley & Sons. Irons, C., & Beaumont, E. (2017). The Compassionate Mind Workbook: A step-by-step guide to developing your compassionate self. Robinson.  Welford, M. (2012). The Compassionate Mind Approach to Building Self-confidence Using Compassion Focused Therapy. Constable & Robinson. Papers Gilbert, P. (2014). The origins and nature of compassion focused therapy. British Journal of Clinical Psychology, 53(1), 6-41. Gilbert, P. (2015). Affiliative and prosocial motives and emotions in mental health. Dialogues in clinical neuroscience, 17(4), 381. Transcript Lucy: This is Let's Talk About CBT and I'm Dr Lucy Maddox.   This episode is all about a type of talking therapy called compassion-focused therapy. It sometimes gets called CFT. This is one of the family of cognitive behavioural therapies or CBTs.   For today's podcast I went to Derby to speak to Professor Paul Gilbert and Chris Winson.   Paul: Yes, so hello. I'm Paul Gilbert, clinical psychologist. Retired from the health service but still work as a professor at the local university and also the University of Queensland where we're doing research on compassion-focused therapy.   Chris: My name's Chris Winson and I've gone through a CBT form of therapy called compassion-focused therapy, CFT. And that was to help with depression.   Lucy: I asked both Paul and Chris how they described CFT.   Paul: So compassion really is about the way in which we turn towards suffering and try to alleviate suffering where we can and prevent it. Learning to have the courage to face the pain that we need to face with the wisdom to know what to do to actually help ourselves and prevent it.   Chris: CFT is all about really kind of engaging with a lot of the thoughts that we all have and that depression particularly kind of amplifies. And kind of not shying away from those emotions but engaging with them with a kindness and an encouragement to perhaps work with it rather than reacting perhaps as you would do intuitively.   And in my instance with something like depression, compassion-focused therapy really does help towards those self-critical, self-judgemental, perfectionist kind of thoughts that depression really kind of takes and turns the volume up on to maximum.   Lucy: Paul was the first person to develop CFT.   Paul: During the 70s and 80s we were all pursuing cognitive therapy, and quite well too I think. So we were working with very complex and severe people with depression. And they could be quite good at developing alternative thoughts to some of the more difficult beliefs and attitudes to self-help.  But they would often say, "Yes, I can see the logic in these alternatives, like I think I'm a failure but in reality I can see I've achieved this, that and the other. I can't really feel any different."   So one day, and I'd like to tell you it was because it was wisdom and because I was so clever, but unfortunately it wasn't. It was simply accidental. I asked this lady, "Well, how do you hear these alternative thoughts in your mind? Speak them out." "Well, what do you mean?" I said, "Speak them out as you actually hear them." And she said, "Okay. Okay, so you're depressed, so you've got a husband who loves you and he stands by you, hasn't he? You've got children who love you. For God's sake, look at the evidence!"  So I said, "Oh my goodness. Is that actually how you hear them?" And she said, "Yeah."   So I thought, "Ooh." So I said, "Well, what would happen, imagine that you had the same alternative thoughts that you could see that in reality your husband did care about you and you had children who loved you and were doing very well at school and so on. You'd been a good mother to them. And this was with a voice that was very kind and compassionate to you because it realised all the struggle you'd had in your life and the depression you'd been fighting against. What would happen if you thought about that or said that in your mind with that tone?"   And she looked at me as if I was mad and she said, "Absolutely not. I'd never been kind to myself. I can't see the point of it. It's just, that's weak, that's not going to work at all."   So that was the beginning really, it's where we began to realise that it's not just the content of people's thinking, it's also the emotional textures that they are relating themselves with.   Lucy: So how do you work on the tone that someone speaks to themselves in?   Paul: Slowly. (Laughs) Well, the first thing is a series of steps. I mean all successful therapy really takes people through stages, through steps, right? So the first step is really helping people think about why that would be useful. Why would it be useful for you to begin to change, pay attention to and change the emotional texture of your thinking, not just the content?  Chris: It's not so much initially changing the words that you might be saying to yourself, but it's changing the tone. It's very powerful actually to start to change that. From that you can then build and start to change some of the words that you say to yourself. So you then change that into a gentle encouragement.   Our brains are kind of evolved to protect us but often in modern life that kind of goes out of control a little bit. And we become constantly on alert, constantly kind of feeling threatened with a drive that can sometimes be out of control almost. And we start to work on reaction and emotional reaction rather than perhaps to the reality and with clear intention.   So for me CFT has just brought that different way of engaging. And it's almost a pause between the thought and then how I react to that.   Lucy: Compassion-focused therapy is based on evolutionary psychology. Paul describes three systems that we all have in our bodies. The threat system, the drive system and the soothing or affiliative system.   Paul: There are three types of emotional regulation systems. One of the functions of emotion is to alert you to dangers and trigger actions.   So fight and flight, obviously. Anger and anxiety. Their primary function is to threat. And they are designed to come on very quickly and they're designed to turn off all other emotions. So if you're walking in the jungle and hear the sound of a lion, you have to lose interest in what you're eating and who you're talking to and the nature of the conversation. You'd better pay attention and run you see.  So the threat system is the one that really causes us the rumination. We worry about so on and so. If you go Christmas shopping and you go into 10 shops, and in nine of the shops the assistants are really helpful to you then you go into one shop and the assistant is really rude, they make you wait. So you come out of a shop. Who are you thinking about on your way home? But 90% of the people were good, yeah?  So why don't we ruminate and go over and over in our mind about how wonderful people are, how kind they are? Partly because you're not biologically designed to do that because your threat system will always take preference, right?   So part of what being mindful is about is to notice when your threat system is running your show. Because it will.   Now you have a drive system and that's the system that's activated when good things happen to you. And sometimes with depression you're wanting to try and stimulate that because when you get depressed you lose the interest in doing things. You lose the pleasure in doing things. The emotion goes. Not necessarily the motive, you may still want to go to the party or whatever it is but you've just got no energy or you don't anticipate you'll enjoy it. Or you'll anticipate you'll be anxious. So that's your drive system.   But then there's another system which has often forgotten which is called arrest and digest, or a soothing system. Now very, very briefly you have a sympathetic nerve system which speeds up so you breathe faster, your heart beats faster, your blood pressure goes up. And you have a parasympathetic that slows you down. So it slows the heartrate, it slows your breathing, it brings your blood pressure down.   And these two systems are working side by side all the time. So these systems are closely, like an orchestra, they're working very tightly together, they're balancing each other.   So when animals are no longer trying to achieve things, do things, excited, going out and do stuff, and they're no longer under threat, the body goes into what is called this rest and digest. It slows down and it slows down because there's a parasympathetic system.   Now there are many things that stimulate that system, such as breathing, posture, thinking. But one of the things that's very important for stimulating the soothing system is affiliative signals.   Lucy: What's an affiliative signal?   Paul: It's like a friendly sort of benevolent signal like a signal of being cared about and taken an interest in. Affiliative means friendly. Unfortunately some of the people that we work with, that system doesn't work very well. They're not very able to accept kindness coming in. They don't see it. They may think they're not worthy of it. They'll have beliefs like, "Well, okay, you're wanting to be kind to me but if you really knew what went on in my head you wouldn't think I was worth it. It's only because you don't really know."  So that takes us into a shame dimension. The fear of shame and so on. And if I got close to you then I would see that maybe you're not as honest as you say. Maybe you're just doing this because you're paid to do it, you're a therapist and so on.   So the whole point really is that that system then doesn't work so well. So what CFT therapists do is they spend a lot of time focusing on how to help individuals experience of affiliative, friendly signals that will influence that, get that system working.   Chris: It's a very elegant model to be able to understand quite complicated neuroscience. The interesting thing when you look at that model for me is that it's understandable that our threat systems are often enabled. We don't have to worry about being eaten by a tiger anymore. But that's where it kind of came from.   And we live in a modern society where often there are threats around us in terms of, it could be doing presentations, and we don't relax from that.   Lucy: Compassion-focused therapists usually explain this model to their clients as part of the treatment tying the model to the person's goals.   CFT uses a range of different exercises which work on the threat, drive or soothing systems, either to calm those systems down or pep them up depending on what would be most helpful.   Chris: There's a few things that we did. So one was to look at that model and to kind of think about if I had to score on a one to 10 of how, which of those systems were kind of in play, drive and threat were probably at 10 and affiliate was probably down there at one or two.   And then it was understanding to bring balance around those. CFT does bring mindfulness practices in.   Lucy: Mindfulness is just about trying to keep our attention in the present moment instead of worrying about stuff that's already happened or that hasn't even happened yet, and trying to do this without judging yourself or having a go at yourself when your mind is hopping about.   Chris: It also helped to do some exercises around the concept of the different selves. So we all have our different selves or our different voices. And depression particularly brings out that critical and the judgement-type voices. And the perfectionist voices.   So some of the exercises sort of actually work upon the compassion voice and to develop the idea of a compassionate self. And that's actually something that I've really adopted. So when I am feeling anxious or concerned I try to bring to mind what the compassionate self would look like. And what would they be saying to me. Because we're very good at supporting our friends when they're feeling distressed, it's then bringing that to ourselves.   I found compassionate writing very helpful as well. So I now keep a journal which varies on day-to-day what I write in it, how much I write in it. But it's something that I can help to work through what I might be thinking about.   And there are some exercises around writing compassionate letters to yourself which again is not all saying, "Oh you're great, I love you." It's about reflecting on how you're feeling and really giving yourself some support and encouragement during those periods.   Lucy: And does it work? I asked Paul to talk us through the evidence base.   Paul: Yeah, people forget there are two types of evidence. Evidence of process, evidence of outcome. Right? So evidence of process means that we do understand how the system works. So the evidence is, is there such a thing as a parasympathetic system? Well actually there is. There's plenty of evidence for that. Is it true that affiliative signals influence…? Well actually, yes, it does. Is it the case that people who have been traumatised and depressed, that system doesn't work very well? Yes.   So in terms of the process we're probably one the better therapies in terms of process evidence. And in fact the whole basis of CFT is rooted in the science of how the mind and body actually work.  One of the issues that sometimes CBT is accused of, is being a little bit heady, a bit too much in the head and not enough in the body and not enough in the actual physiological mechanisms. But we're very into the… so the evidence of process is very good.   Evidence of outcome is more difficult partly because turning these insights and these gradual modules of how you work with different aspects of motivation and emotion is tricky. So we've now got quite a good set of therapies and we've got a number of people who've worked very hard at adapting the basic CFT for different groups such as like psychosis or depression and trauma and so forth.   Moving that into RCTs evidence of outcomes is very expensive. But there are a number of trials, good trials, RCTs now going on around the world which is showing that CFT is really acceptable, people like it. It does produce physiological change and it does produce benefit to people who have mental health difficulties.   Lucy: I asked Chris about his personal experience of whether CFT had been helpful or not.   Chris: I really liked the emotional systems model, those three; threat, drive and soothing, because I think that really helps to understand how and why we may think in a certain way. And then that compassion to yourself and that's the big one. The self-compassion is probably the big thing, to understand what that really means. And to understand that that's not selfish.   And actually it takes quite a bit of courage sometimes to do that self-compassion piece.   And I think when you're a leader, as I was a manager and a leader, you don't always want to express how you're feeling. Even though they were the messages I was giving out to my managers and my teams that it was okay to talk about things. I kind of kept it all behind a mask.   And I think natural reaction if you talk to men about compassion and self-compassion, sitting with your emotions, is going to be, "That's not what men do," or, "How is that helpful?" Or, "That's just giving in." It's not.   And actually it takes quite a lot of courage and bravery to actually say, "Actually I don't feel very good and I'm going to talk about why that is. And actually I'm going to ask for some help."   And being able to sit with your emotions whether it's whatever the feeling is, whether it's anger, whether it's impatience, whether it's that self-criticism and perfectionist, to actually really sit and engage with that and to actually say there are some parts of this that I don't really like that I'm feeling like this, that's not easy.   Lucy: Paul agreed that it takes a lot of courage to embrace compassion.   Paul: When we bring compassion into our own lives and we address our trauma compassionately, we address our criticism and our shame with compassion, things change. So compassion is not in any sense a weakness. In order to engage with suffering, because that's what it is, to really engage with suffering and turn towards it, be prepared to engage with it and try as best you can to do something about it, that's a courageous act. It's not an act of weakness. It's not a softness. Compassion is the courage to engage with suffering with the wisdom to know what to do.   Chris: I think it kind of has changed my life to address the depression. But it's actually allowed me to do some things that I would not have done before. I've been looking forward to doing this podcast from a couple of months back from when we first talked about doing it, for many reasons.   And then particularly overnight and then this morning I kind of thought, "Oh, okay, I'm doing the podcast today." And all those kind of thoughts start to come back to your mind. So, "I'm going to mess it up, I won't say anything that I want to say, it'll be a failure." All those kind of thoughts start to come into your mind. And what CFT has taught me is to say, "Okay, I recognise that, and that's kind of my anxious self and there's my judgemental self in there and the critical self. And I'm going to thank them for making those comments." And fundamentally my mind is, my threat system there is trying to protect me.   And then the other part of the CFT which I've not really probably mentioned yet is about values because I think you really start to understand what's important to you. And that doesn't mean it has to be some to light suddenly comes through clouds and hits you and it's like, "Oh okay, that's what my life's about." And so it's important for me, as it has been with my writing, to kind of try and share, both to raise awareness of depression, but actually also to share about CFT because that has for me made such a difference.   I'm so kind of passionate about sharing that that that offsets the anxiety and the natural concern to be doing an interview like this.   I think it's given me a different relationship with… first of all it gave me a different relationship with depression. And I think overall, however, it's given me a different relationship with my thoughts overall.   I think it's actually just allowed me to actually engage with myself in a different way. It's not just about handling distressing thoughts. It actually really does help you to be present and enjoy moments.   Lucy: Chris has been writing a blog about compassion-focused therapy and also running a Twitter hashtag, #365DaysOfCompassion, to share ideas about the therapy.   Chris: I've never really felt that I was a creative person. When you do the writing, when you do stuff like that and you put the blog out, it's incredibly vulnerable. But what self-compassion says to me is but this is important for you to share your story and to try and help and therefore it kind of encourages me and supports me through that process.   Lucy: I asked Chris and Paul if they had any advice for people considering compassion-focused therapy.   Paul: I'd obviously recommend it. I think it's a good therapy obviously. But people have to make their own decisions.   It's holistic. In other words it pays attention to people's motives, their emotions, their cognitions, their behaviours, their fantasies, hopes and wishes. And so forth. So all of those things. It doesn't privilege any one particular although it is probably now more of a motivational theory, motivational process that developing people's intentionality, being clear about one's intention in life. If you choose to be the person that at best, what kind of person would be choose?   Now people often start, "Well, I want to be successful, I want to be famous, I want money," blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you can help them also orientate themselves to a compassion intention, "I want to be a person that wherever I can I'll be helpful rather than harmful, and really hold that and I'm going to do that to myself wherever I can, I will be helpful to myself and not harmful to myself," that intentionality flourishes and we've treated a lot of people with CFT now and it just changes their values.   Chris: I think timing is important. So I didn't go straight into CBT. I probably would have struggled initially to have engaged with the idea of a compassionate part and sitting with emotions perhaps at the height of the depression and you've got to be receptive. And be prepared to work at it because it is hard.   I can remember one therapy session that came out of, and I have told my therapist this, that I've sat in the car afterwards very emotional and almost walked back in to say, "I'm not doing this anymore."   But actually that was a breakthrough moment because – which I recognise now – because I'd finally started to open up. And I'd finally started to understand and accept that depression was there and that actually I could there see how compassion and CFT was going to start to help.   Lucy: A big thanks to Chris and Paul for their interviews.   I hope that's helped explain some of the ideas around compassion-focused therapy. I think probably most of us could benefit from being a little kinder in the way we speak to ourselves.   If you'd like more information or resources, please check out the show notes for some references and links.   This podcast is brought to you by the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, or BABCP. For more information about BABCP and CBT in general check out www.BABCP.com.  Thanks to Gabe Stebbing for the title music, Aaron Zimm for the incidental music, Paul Gilbert and Chris Winson for speaking to me, and Eliza Lomas for editing consultation.   Any feedback or ideas, please do let us know. And please rate us on iTunes if you've enjoyed the show.   Next time we'll be exploring another of the CBT family. So I hope you come back for that.     END OF AUDIO 

How do we live with impossible dilemmas? How can someone stop self harming when it's the only way they know of coping? What is DBT and how did it help Louise? Dr Michaela Swales and Louise Brinton-Clark talk to Dr Lucy Maddox.  This episode includes reference to self-harm. Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Show Notes and Transcript  If you're interested in finding out more about the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, or about Dialectical Behaviour Therapy here are some resources... Websites babcp.com is the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies website and it links to the CBT register of accredited CBT therapists in the UK (or go straight to cbtregisteruk.com). BABCP also has a DBT special interest groups which members can join. https://www.sfdbt.org/ is the Society for DBT website which has a list of accredited DBT therapists in the UK https://www.behavioraltech.org/ has research articles and a good video on "What is DBT?" Books Heard, H. L., & Swales, M. A. (2016). Dialectical behaviour therapy: distinctive features. Routledge. Koerner, K. (2012). Doing dialectical behavior therapy: A practical guide. Guilford Press. Linehan, M. (2014). DBT Skills Training Manual. Guilford Publications. Linehan, M. M. (2014). DBT Skills Training Handouts and Worksheets. Guilford Publications. Swales, M. A. (Ed.). (2017). The Oxford Handbook of Dialectical Behaviour Therapy. Oxford University Press. Transcript Louise: It is a life-saving treatment for some people.   I don't believe I would have graduated or got married or even, it sounds really daft, even have passed my driving test.   Lucy: This is Let's Talk About CBT and I'm Dr Lucy Maddox. This episode is all about a type of talking therapy called dialectical behaviour therapy or DBT. This is one of the family of cognitive behavioural therapies or CBT which was talked about in episode one. We talk a bit about self-harm today, so please take care of yourself, if you know that's a tricky subject for you.   To get away from the acronyms and try to understand what DBT is actually like I went to Bangor, in Wales, to meet with Dr Michaela Swales and Louise Brinton-Clark.   Louise: My name's Louise Brinton-Clark, I have been a member of a DBT group, dialectical behaviour therapy group, both as a service user and as a graduate facilitator.   Michaela: My name's Michaela Swales, I'm a clinical psychologist, I'm also the director of the British Isles DBT training team. So, as well as having delivered DBT for probably the best part of 20 years in my clinical practice, I've also spent the last 15 years or so training others to deliver DBT.   Lucy: Dialectical behaviour therapy is a bit of a mouthful, I asked Michaela to explain what it means.   Michaela: So, within the treatment, we do a lot to help people change things and we do a lot to help people accept things. And in a way, those two things acceptance and change, at least on the face of it, look like they're totally in contradiction. They're what's termed in a particular branch of philosophy – not that you need to know philosophy to do this treatment – a dialectic. They're two things that are in almost polar opposites to each other, but there's value in both of them.   And so constantly in the treatment we're always looking for both change-based ways to solve problems and acceptance-based ways to live your life. And being dialectical means looking at both of those things, and sometimes you have to do a mix of those things to really get things to work.   It is a behavioural treatment, so it focuses a lot on changing behaviours, both those things that other people can see that we do, but also those things that we experience internally. And as we know from lots of areas of life, changing our behaviour is hard, it takes a lot of hard work. And I think many of the people who come for this treatment have a lot of things in their life that they are really struggling with, multiple things. And so it is a tough treatment.   Lucy: I also asked Louise to explain DBT.   Louise: My understanding of what dialectical behaviour therapy is it's working with opposites but bringing them together. It's that thinking in extremes, isn't it? It's called black and white thinking.  Lucy: Which I guess we all get into sometimes.   Louise: We do get into. And that grey area, my god, the grey area is the size of the universe, really. It's immeasurable.   And I know what I typically used to do, and I guess I still do sometimes, is thinking in those extremes, that stereotypical, "I hate you, don't leave me." It's two total opposites of the same thing.   Lucy: So, like push-pull kind of… Two opposites, how do we reconcile them?   Louise: Or hurting yourself to stop the pain.   Lucy: DBT is a treatment that's often used to treat severe self-harm and huge ups and downs in mood. It's a pretty comprehensive treatment package as both Michaela and Louise told me about.   What does it look like when people are referred for dialectical behaviour therapy or for people who are thinking about having it?  Michaela: Typically, people have multiple problems when they come, and one of the things that the treatment tries to do is rather than parcel off these different pieces is to try to understand how all of these different behaviours relate to what the treatment considers the core problem, really, which is a difficulty in managing and regulating emotions. So, in order to do that, the treatment has a number of components.   Lucy: Full DBT has four main components, a skills group or class, individual sessions, skills coaching course, and something called a therapist consult. Louise was at university while she was having DBT and she found her skills group hugely important.   Louise: So, I don't think I would have graduated from university without group. Year three for me in university was a really, really tough year. When I was doing group then, was quite depressed, I was still abusing over the counter medications and stuff like that.   It was a really nice, honest environment, so perhaps talking about why we engage in some behaviours that actually might be, I don't like the term, attention seeking. Let's call it support seeking, for the purpose of this conversation. But we might be doing some behaviours for support seeking, and I felt like in the group, in that environment it was a really safe space to say, "This is why I've done this." And actually, it opened up the floor for other people to say, "Actually, I've done that as well."   It's like a massive relief, it's a freedom, it's a weight lifted.   Lucy: And skills group is just one part of the treatment.   Michaela: Anyone who's tried to learn anything new will know that just going to a skills class doesn't necessarily change your behaviour. Most people have tried at some point in their life to learn a language. And you can go to skills classes to learn language as much as you like, but that doesn't mean you'll get to be fluent. And in a way, we're trying to teach people to be fluent in a new language around managing their emotions and their relationships and so on.   So, in addition to skills class, people in DBT meet with an individual therapist once a week on their own. And each week, the therapist and the person coming for help will work together to try and figure out how to get these new skills to apply to the particular problems that their person is bringing to therapy.   DBT also has a mechanism where people in the treatment can contact their individual therapist for coaching in how to apply the skills actually in the moment when it's really difficult.   So, DBT from the person receiving it, that's what it looks like, they have those three different what we call modalities, skills training, individual therapy and skills coaching calls. But in addition, therapists who are working in this way meet together in what's called the DBT consultation team every week. And people coming for the treatment know about this consultation team. And the aim of that team is to make sure that the therapist is delivering the most effective treatment possible.   Lucy: And that's really full on, actually, isn't it? But also, what an incredible package to get.   Michaela: Yes.   Lucy: Sometimes services offer a kind of DBT lite.   Michaela: They do, yes.   Lucy: Is that still DBT? Or is it something a bit different?  Michaela: I think the evidence base that's emerging is that the best evidence for people who have multiple complex problems and are highly suicidal is for full programme DBT.   There is an emerging evidence now, looking at skills classes where therapists are trained in the full programme, but they're offering skills classes and they're still going to consultation team, and offering some kind of skills coaching that for people who have slightly less severe problems that might do well.   I think if we could get the benefits of this treatment with it being less intense, that's a win-win all round, because it would mean that more people could access the treatment. And at the same time, the best evidence we have is for the full programme.   Lucy: I asked both Michaela and Louise to talk me through the different skills modules.   Michaela: In standard skills classes there are four modules taught. One is mindfulness, another is distress tolerance, those are the two on the acceptance side. And then, there is a module called emotion regulation and another on interpersonal effectiveness, and they're on the change side.   Mindfulness really focuses on… our minds tend to gallop off into the future or gallop to the past. And often, if we think about it, we're rarely in any one moment.   Now, if in one's past and one's future there are things that are not particularly troubling or might even be quite pleasant, that's not really so much of an issue. But for many of the people, if not all of the people, who come to this treatment, there's a lot of pain and difficulty in their past. And also, they have a lot of worry and anxiety about the future and often not a lot of hope, given what's happened to them in their past.  And so, the fact that our minds do this bouncing around becomes really problematic, because it generates a lot of distress. And so, one of the things we work on is how to remain more in the present.   And so, the other thing we teach in mindfulness is to notice when judgements show up and to work on being more factual and describing things in a more factual way. Or at least just noticing judgements and trying to let them go, because they so often really crank up our emotions in unhelpful directions.   Louise: Mindfulness we do every week. And I think there's a bit of a misconception about mindfulness. We think it's just about looking at trees (laughs) and things like that, and I think that really puts people off. I actually really disliked the idea of mindfulness when I first started. But actually, as time went on, I learned it was more you could incorporate it into your everyday life.   Michaela: In distress tolerance, what we focus on there is the fact that lots of things happen in life that are really difficult, really painful things. And often we can't solve them, or we can't solve them now. And we all have to learn skills in life to be able to get through a crisis without making it worse.   Lucy: Easier said than done.   Michaela: Much easier said than done.   Louise: So, recently, I hit a bit of a depressive spot because I'm losing my job. My immediate response in my head is to, "Right, that's it, I'm going to bed, there's no point, blah de blah." If I'd done that, there would have been a whole heap of consequences. I would have lost my job a lot sooner (laughs) before the closure of the unit that I'm working in.   Whereas previously, if I had gone with my initial even just staying in bed, even if I'm not talking about self-damaging behaviours, just staying in bed, that just makes things worse. And we have to recognise that we have a choice. I don't have a choice in losing my job, but I have a choice in how I respond to that. It's recognising that choice and recognising consequences.   Michaela: On the change side, we have emotion regulation. We spend a lot of time talking about emotions in DBT. They're often the thing that cause the most pain and distress to the people that we work with. And we want to first of all start off by helping people understand the different emotions that they might experience, and how that connects to what's happening.   Many of the people we work with were raised in environments that didn't really help them understand the different sorts of emotions that they might have, and often they were criticised or even punished for having emotions at all. So, that's not going to help you learn.   So, we start off by really trying to help everyone get a better emotional vocabulary about the different emotions that you might have, like fear and anger and shame and sadness. And understand what might set those off and what thoughts go with that, what that feels like in your body, what it leads you to want to do.   And then, we have a whole set of skills that help us work on how to change our emotional responses, depending on what emotions we're having. And also, we think a lot about often emotions are giving us a clue to something that's happening, it's like a little warning sign that there's something to pay attention to.   So we also work a lot on trying to figure out how do you know when an emotion is telling you something that you should act on, versus when is actually your emotion somehow inaccurate to the context? Or it may be accurate to the context, so maybe somebody has said something that was difficult, they've given you some difficult feedback. Maybe they said they didn't like your new hairstyle for example.   But the level of your distress in response is more as if they told you you were a dreadful person. So, that although having a degree of anger would be perfectly natural in those circumstances, the intensity is just more than what you want to have to deal with. So, we try and help people figure out what would be a reasonable emotion to have in that circumstance, and also how much of that emotion would they like to be feeling, given the context? And to try and to be able to regulate emotions down to the level that they are useful.   Louise: Well, I guess I can regulate my emotions, my emotions still feel unregulated but I'm not responding to them in the same way, does that make sense?  Lucy: Yeah.   Louise: So, that would be things like acting opposite and stuff like that.   Michaela: And then, in interpersonal effectiveness we focus on how to interact with people to increase the chances that people will give you what would be helpful to you. So asking for what you want and also saying no to things that you don't want.   Louise: The other module is interpersonal effectiveness, which is probably my favourite because it's meant I've been able to maintain relationships. I've stopped arguing with people, I've stopped arguing with myself in my head.   Lucy: Wow, that's major.   Louise: I typically would ruminate a lot and argue with people in my head and it was exhausting. My favourite skill of that is the DEARMAN skill.   Lucy: What does that mean?  Louise: So, an example is, I've been invited to a party, and I don't want to go. D, describe, that's a description, I've been invited to this party, I don't want to go. So, the E is express, so I would express I don't want to go. (Laughs) A is assert, be assertive, not confrontational, not defensive, assertive, I don't want to go. And try not to apologise.   Lucy: So, just clearly stating what you want.   Louise: Yeah, try not to apologise, don't apologise for your wishes, because no apology is needed.   Reinforce, so just say you were saying to me, "Oh but I really want you to come, I really want you to come." "I really don't want to. I'd rather stay at home that night." Stay mindful, so keep the goal in mind, just be aware of your emotions, be aware of what's going on in your body.   You're doing the DEARMAN skill, but the person opposite you isn't. (Laughs) And the person opposite you also has a goal in mind, appear confident. You want to appear confident without appearing confrontational. So, perhaps it's sometimes better to do it in person.   So, if you're doing it in person, body language, head up, shoulders back, even if you don't feel it, that other person does not know that you do not feel confident. And negotiate. I don't want to come to the party, but how about we meet up for a coffee in a couple of days? Compromise.   Lucy: That's sounds really useful.  Louise: I love this skill and it's actually really, really helped in a lot of situations, it's quite funny when you use it, because people who know me and who've known me for a long time, such as my brother, and he knows how confrontational or argumentative I can be. And then, I suddenly use this skill and he's like, "Um, okey dokey." (Laughter) People typically respond quite well to it.   Lucy: DBT is particularly recommended for severe self-harm. And this often comes along with a controversial diagnosis, which I asked Michaela and Louise about.   You mentioned that this approach, although it can be helpful for anyone, is perhaps particularly helpful for individuals who have quite complex difficulties going on and maybe are engaging in self-harm.   Michaela: Yeah.   Lucy: And sometimes that comes along with quite a controversial diagnosis of borderline personality disorder.   Michaela: Yes.   Lucy: Which people may or may not have heard about who are listening to this. I just wondered if you had a view or if DBT approaches had a view on the diagnosis itself?  Michaela: Yeah. DBT was designed specifically for people who have been given a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. The main reason for that was that in order to get funding to study a treatment, the funders – it's changing slightly now, but certainly for the last 20 years – have only really funded things that were based on people with particular diagnoses.   But in fact, the treatment developer originally developed the treatment for suicidal behaviours. And then, started to think particularly about the problems that people who get given that diagnosis of borderline personality disorder have and how that linked to suicidal behaviour.   But DBT is a behavioural treatment and so, what that means is that it really sees the problems that end up being labelled as borderline personality disorder as really a set of behavioural patterns that people have learned. Like we all learn as we're growing up in our environment.   We learn ways of behaving and responding and experiencing the world so that really the patterns that end up with this label are ways the people have learned to cope. So, that what we're trying to work out in DBT is what of those behaviours are problematic for the person? What do they want to change? And it's like what is it that they want out of treatment? And how are these behavioural patterns getting in the way of that?   So, whilst it's the case that often people who come into this treatment have got that diagnosis or could get that diagnosis, what we're really interested in as DBT therapists are what are those behaviours that are causing somebody trouble and suffering? And how can we help change them?   Louise: I have this massive conflict about the diagnosis, they were talking about the BPD diagnosis with me when I was 15, which is far too young, I was 15. I was diagnosed when I was 18. I had a life of loads of trauma, I responded accordingly (laughs). I reacted normally to abnormal circumstances. Those reactions were a problem. But it was my reaction.   I will be forever on my medical record be down as somebody who has borderline personality disorder. You could say I meet one of the criteria or two, but I no longer meet the criteria, but I still have that diagnosis.   Lucy: So, both Michaela and Louise were really clear there about the limits and potential pitfalls of the diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. I should add just for balance, that there are some people who can find it a real relief to have a diagnosis that they recognise.   If you're interested, have a look at the show notes for a few more references and debates on this topic.   So, what if you're thinking of having DBT yourself?   Michaela: Just as in the skills that we're teaching, people who come for treatment there's acceptance and change. There is also that in the style of the therapy. Part of being a DBT therapist is to be validating and genuine and understanding of your client's difficulties and that's very, very important.   And there is also a component which is trying to challenge and motivate people to change. And sometimes in therapy it's called being irreverent.   Sometimes you might say things that therapists might not normally say, you might be a bit challenging. The reason for that is that there's lots of research to show that if we are really totally immersed in feeling overwhelmed, it's hard for us to pay attention to sometimes what people are saying or asking us. Whereas if somebody's a bit irreverent and says the unexpected thing, it is like a novel stimulus and we turn toward it, and then there's a little opening of being to think differently.   The treatment takes a very strong stance that getting a reduction and stopping suicidal and self-harming behaviour is top priority. And for most people in the treatment, from the research within about 16 weeks on average, that behaviour has come right down, is much more infrequent.   And then, what we then work on are other things that the person says are issues. And so, once that's out of the way, you could say we can then really get on with the business of helping with these other things, because we don't have be worrying that the person is going to die.   Louise: I think I would focus on the fact that it is a behaviour therapy, it's not going to resolve any trauma initially. So, imagine most people who enter DBT have experienced some type of trauma, because you speak to people with that BPD diagnosis, have actually had quite traumatic backgrounds. That's not to invalidate the trauma, but actually it's to get you stable enough to address that trauma.   That's what it was for me. You couldn't see the depression and the anxiety that I was experiencing because I was in this constant cycle of crisis and putting myself into hospital. The depression and the anxiety and the trauma couldn't be addressed.   The time will come when you will do that trauma work, it has to be safe for you and for the people working with you as well.   Lucy: And what are the things that you particularly like about the DBT approach? What got you into it?  Michaela: It tries to see people's problems as being ways that they've learned to cope. To me it normalises how people have learned to do things. There is a real sense that we are in this endeavour together to try and find solutions to very, very difficult problems, and it's not like just because I'm a therapist that I would necessarily have all the answers.   Lucy: So, getting alongside someone?  Michaela: Really, yeah.   Louise: It's helped my relationships as well, so I'm married now.   Lucy: Congratulations.   Louise: Yeah, I'm married. I got married on Christmas Eve of 2016. I said for years that I would never even be in a relationship because I couldn't cope with people and I wouldn't inflict myself upon anybody else.   I've been over two years since I last self-harmed.   Lucy: That's amazing. Well done.  Louise: I was actually discharged from the community mental health team in January. That's the first time in my life that I've gone… so it was a collaborative discharge. We worked together towards it. Previously, when I've been discharged, it's because I've not been engaging with the service or I've discharged myself in a fit of, "I don't need you." This was actually collaborative.   I don't believe I would have graduated or got married or even it sounds really daft, even have passed my driving test, because I wasn't safe to drive because of things I was doing. Living a life worth living, even things like contributing to society, I don't know that I would have been able to do these things without these skills.   Like I said before, even just in this past week, I've chosen to use my skills in order to get through some difficulties I've been experiencing, and it has got me through the past week. It has.   Lucy: Huge thanks to Louise and Michaela for speaking to me. I hope that's helped give a flavour of DBT. If you want any more information check out the show notes for some more links.   That's it from me, next episode, we'll be thinking about another member of the wider CBT family, so I hope you tune back in.   This podcast is brought to you by the British Association of Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies or BABCP, for more information about BABCP and cognitive behavioural therapies in general, check out www.babcp.com.   Thanks to Gabe Stebbing for the title music, Jason Shaw and Entertainment for the Braindead for the incidental music. Michaela Swales and Louise Brinton-Clark for being interviewed and Eliza Lomas for editing consultation.   Any feedback or ideas please do let us know, and please rate us on iTunes, if you've enjoyed the show.     END OF AUDIO   

What is cognitive behavioural therapy? What's it like to have it? How can it be useful? Is it just 'positive thinking'? (spoiler - it's not). Prof David Clark, Prof Sarah Corrie, Jo and Frank talk to Dr Lucy Maddox.  A mix of interviews, myth-busting and CBT jargon explained, this accessible podcast is brought to you by the British Association of Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. www.babcp.com Podcast episode produced by Dr Lucy Maddox for BABCP Transcript Lucy: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, a new podcast exploring cognitive behavioural therapy; what it is, what it's not, and how it can be useful.   My name is Dr Lucy Maddox, and I'm a consultant clinical psychologist. I use cognitive behavioural therapy, or CBT, a lot in my work, alongside other therapeutic approaches. I also work as senior clinical advisor for the BABCP, which stands for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies.   I thought that a podcast might be a great way of explaining CBT to people who are curious to know more about it. I'm getting lots of experts in the field to come and help me do that. In this episode I'll be interviewing Prof David Clark about what CBT is, I'll be speaking to Jo and Frank, two people who have experienced what it's like to have CBT first hand, and I'll be busting some CBT myths with Prof Sarah Corrie. I'll also be picking a bit of CBT jargon to explain.   First, let's hear what David Clark has to say about what CBT is. David Clark is a professor of experimental psychology at Oxford University, and national clinical advisor to the Department of Health. I caught up with him at the annual conference of BABCP in Manchester, back in July. I started by asking him to explain just what is CBT?  David: So CBT is a psychological therapy which is designed to help people who are troubled by excessively severe or persistent negative emotions.   Emotions are part of everyday life; things happen to us which make us feel happy, make us feel sad. That's an intrinsic feature of just being a human being. But for some of us we get into phases in our lives where we get excessively down or excessively anxious, in a way which persists. And CBT is based on a very old idea about what might be happening in that situation.   It really goes back to the Greeks. And there was a Greek philosopher, Epictetus who said we are not disturbed by the things that happen to us on their own, but rather the way we think about them. And so the central idea of CBT is that when we have excessive negative emotions, it's partly to do with distorted patterns of thinking. We see the world as much more dangerous than it really is, we view ourselves in a much more negative way than is realistic.   So the first thing in CBT is to help people spot their excessively negative and unhelpful thoughts. But it's called CBT because the second thing is behaviour – the first is cognitions, the second is behaviour – and that's because once we start thinking in a negative way, that changes the way we behave, and that can often keep the problem going.   If, for example, you are someone with one of the most common anxiety problems, social anxiety, you would really like to make new friends and things. But when you go to a party and you feel a bit self-conscious, you think maybe people don't like me, you'll leave the room immediately; you'll avoid. And then of course you don't get a chance to meet other people. And so the way in which your thoughts change your behaviour keeps the whole problem going.   And so your therapist will work with you to try and identify your negative thoughts, and also the way in which it changes your behaviour. Nowadays it has got quite elaborate, so there isn't really one thing that you would say is CBT. Really CBT is a lot of different therapies, all of which have a focus on the way you think, the way the thinking changes your behaviour. And also two other things: the way it changes what you remember – and in some conditions, like post-traumatic stress, that's very important – and also what you pay attention to.   In life there are lots of things going on, and we can choose to attend to some things more than others. And when we're distressed, we tend to focus on the things which fit with our negative view. What we do in CBT is try and work out, for the particular problem that you're coming to therapy for, how does your thinking affect your attention, your memory and your behaviour. When we find unhelpful patterns, then you work with your therapist to change those patterns of thinking and behaviour.   It's very practical. You don't just sit and chat; quite often you'll leave the office with your therapist and test things out.   Lucy: So more of a doing therapy, really?  David: It's a doing and thinking therapy.   So what are the doings you could do? Well, if you get sudden attacks of anxiety, what we call panic attacks, which are quite common for some people, they might think in a panic attack, when they notice their heart racing and a tightness in their chest, they might think they're having a heart attack. As a consequence they may tend to avoid exercise now and keep on ruminating that there's something wrong with my heart.   In therapy, your therapist would discuss with you all of the evidence there might be to say your heart's actually fine, it's more just an anxiety problem. But then they would test it out in action. They might pop out of the clinic with you and do a bit of jogging in the street. And if you focus on your chest and start to feel a little bit of tightness in your chest, instead of just stopping – which is what you might normally do – they would encourage you to do more, and then discover that actually my heart is absolutely fine. So it's testing things out in action.   Similarly, in social anxiety, people it turns out often have very negative pictures in their mind or images of how they think they look to someone. If they're worried about blushing, they might when they feel hot in the face think they look beetroot-red and very humiliated, and everyone must have thought they looked very odd.   Your therapist actually might, with your permission, video you while you're having a conversation with someone. And when you think I look really dreadful, they will then review with you afterwards what you looked like in reality, on the video. And people find that an incredibly helpful thing, because they discover they looked very different from the way they felt.   So these are all very practical things that you do, to test out your beliefs.   Lucy: What's the most unusual think you've ever done with anyone?  David: I think the nice thing about cognitive behavioural therapy is that everyone's beliefs are slightly different. And as a consequence, often your therapist will work with you to develop very specific tests of those beliefs.   So what would be a nice example? A while ago I was treating someone who was very worried that in a panic attack she would run out of air. She breathes very quickly, and thought if she was in a closed space then there would be no oxygen left. And we discussed this a bit. And I said, "Well, that's really not likely to happen, because in any normal room there's always air coming in, even with the doors and windows closed. Through the keyhole, under the doors and things. And so we could spend a year in the room and we wouldn't run out of air." And she said, "I don't believe you." And that's always a good point in therapy, if the patient says they don't believe you. Because they're being frank with you, they're explaining what is unconvincing, and then you can work together to sort it out.  So I said to her, "Well, you might be right, but let's test it out. How could we find out whether air comes into the room even with all of the doors and windows closed?" And we thought for a while, and we said, "Well, if a smell can come in then air could come in." So we agreed I would go out of the room, we closed the doors, and then I would just let off an air freshener in the corridor. And after just about 30 seconds, the lady said, "Oh that's a disgusting smell. Who bought that air freshener?"   And this really tested for her this belief that she had. And she realised she was never going to run out of air wherever she was.   Lucy: I was just thinking about what you said about it's the way we think about things that matters. Some people might wonder what if things just are quite difficult in life, or for some reason they're up against quite a lot of things that are challenging or hard. Is there a way of thinking out of that or is that just that things are difficult for them?  David: Well, the first thing to say is that cognitive behavioural therapy isn't about the power of positive thinking. It isn't saying just think positively and then there won't be any problems. We often are in difficult circumstances in life, and it's very important in therapy to accept that and acknowledge that. But then what we can do to deal with those difficult circumstances depends very much on our thinking patterns and our behaviour.   So the CBT therapist really works with you to look at what you can change, and help you do that, rather than trying to get you to ignore the realities. And we do know, in all circumstances, that there are things that we can do; that's one of the great powers of human nature.   CBT isn't a one-size-fits-all. You only get the best results if your therapist works with you to get you an individualised formulation of exactly how your problem pans out, and what we can do to very precisely target the traps of thinking and behaviour that you're involved in at the moment.   Lucy: Do you think CBT ideas can be useful for everyone?  David: The evidence is that we don't have any psychological therapy that works for everyone. So on a straightforward answer, no. For many of the conditions that CBT is used for, if you have a well-trained therapist who does a careful formulation, and you're at a point in your life where you feel you also want to work with them to do the work. We get very high response rates, depending on the condition, between 40% and 70% of people recover, and many more people show worthwhile benefit.   But CBT isn't the only psychological therapy around, there are other ones which have also got an evidence base. And for some people they may do better with a different approach.   Lucy: Do you think CBT ideas can be useful not just as a diagnosed problem, but do you think there are ideas that people can draw from it in their everyday lives?  David: In general in CBT we see severe emotional problems as just at the extreme end of a dimension. And that many of us find there are times when we get quite upset about something or other, and we can spot in retrospect maybe I got that out of perspective. And so a lot of the key ideas of CBT can be used on a much more daily basis, but some of us perhaps aren't so motivated to use them unless we're feeling really upset.   Lucy: And are there top tips you would particularly recommend, or that you yourself draw on in your life?  David: It depends a bit on the emotional reaction. So if you're angry, then a good strategy is to actually just pause and withdraw from the situation; don't take action immediately. Because often you find that this sort of hot emotion eases down after a while and your thinking becomes much more in perspective. So if someone sends you an irritating email, don't fire off a response straight away. So for anger that's really very important I think.   For fear, I think a key thing is to try not to go with the feeling of escape and avoidance, but to stay in the moment and to ask yourself, "Is it really going to happen and can I test it out?"  And for depression or when we're sad, it's very important to realise that we're usually excessively hard on ourselves. When you feel depressed, it's really quite important to think I need to be a bit kinder to myself, a bit more self-compassion.   Lucy: Would you say something about improving access to psychological therapies?  David: Yeah. So in almost all countries in the world we have a strange situation at the moment. So the prospects for people with mental health problems have vastly improved in the last 20 to 30 years. There have been really big advances in developing effective psychological therapies; CBT and some other treatments. And the public want them.   So there have been surveys where people have been asked, if you had a choice between a psychological therapy and a drug therapy, both of which work, which would you prefer? And in a ratio of about three to one, people prefer psychological therapies. But there isn't a country anywhere in the world where the public is getting what they want. Nowhere have we got three times more provision of psychological therapies than drugs. And in most countries you get much less provision of psychological therapy.   So we have this extraordinary gap between scientific advance and public benefit. And here in England, as you know, we've been trying to address that with the government's Improving Access to Psychological Therapies programme, which has now been running for almost 10 years and has changed things a lot.   So we now have what we call IAPTs, or Improving Access to Psychological Therapies services, in all 209 CCGs in England. And around about 560,000 people a year have been treated in those services. And they've revolutionised public transparency about mental health, because the services take objective measures of how anxious and depressed you are at the beginning and end of treatment, and they publish that data. That's never been possible before.   So this is closing the gap between science and public benefit, but there's a long way to go. Before the IAPT programme started, we estimated less than 5% of people with anxiety and depression would get an evidence based psychological treatment. We are now at 16%. That's great; a threefold increase. But 16% is still very much a minority, isn't it? This government has committed to moving up to 25% by the end of this parliament, and we need to keep them to that commitment.   It is a very big project, the IAPT project, but it's very big because we have an enormous number of dedicated professionals who are working in these services. So we have nearly 8,000 therapists working in these new IAPT services, and they've achieved an extraordinary amount.   It had very ambitious targets. When it started we said 50% of people who had a course of treatment would recover, would get completely out of the clinical range for their symptoms, and many more would show worthwhile benefit. At the time that was considered an almost outrageous target; people thought no. But the ambition was there, and in the last three months the government has got to that target, which is wonderful.   It has taken a lot of hard work to get there. But people have learnt a lot from the data we are now getting, and we discover much more about how we should optimally organise a service to get really good results for people.   Lucy: Sometimes I've heard people wonder whether people get better but then need to come back.   David: The research evidence shows that if you follow people up after a course of psychological therapy, some people just stay very well, some people have quite a big relapse in the next year, and some people are sort of going along with somewhere in between.   The key thing is to monitor that, and to give people the necessary support they need to build on the initial gains that are made in therapy. And so for some people I think the ideal is some continuing support, and allowing them to learn extra things in the process.   Now at the moment many IAPT services are not really well organised to do that. Commissioners have been very reluctant to fund some continuing follow-up and support. And I think that needs to change; I think in the future commissioners will see that it makes much more sense to follow people up, and if there's a bit of a setback developing, to intervene early. And then very modest intervention can ensure that someone stays well. So I think there's work to be done to set up our services so they really focus not only on recovery, but also on what we call relapse prevention.   But the reason why psychological therapies are so interesting is that when you compare them with medication, there is pretty good evidence that they have much lower relapse rates than medication. And that's because in a psychological therapy you learn something new about how to deal with emotional setbacks and difficulties. And that learning stays with you.   So that's really the magic of psychological therapies; they don't just help you recover from a bad time in your life, they give you some new knowledge, some new learning, that you can apply to the future.   Lucy: Do you think people should be taught these techniques early – in schools, for example?  David: Well, it's certainly true at the moment that very little of the time in our national curricula is devoted to the things that are most important for people later in life. Of course it's very important to learn to read and write, and to develop your numeracy skills and to study what you want to do for GCSEs and A Levels. But throughout our lives we're going to have emotional challenges, and it does seem very strange that very little of our education system is devoted to preparing us for that.   We certainly hope that in the future there will be two things that would happen in schools. One is much more education about what we understand about emotions and how to manage them; what's normal about them, when they get out of hand and what you can do about it. Secondly, I think we need much more opportunities for young people to have psychological therapy that's evidence based, early in life when they're developing their problems, rather than having to wait until they're adults. Because there are some things that getting depressed or anxious as a child can do, that you never really recover from in life.   If you take one of the problems we deal with, social anxiety. If you're very socially anxious as an adolescent, you will feel very self-conscious in the classroom. You won't hear much of what the teacher says, you'd be lost in your head. However high your IQ is, if you don't get to hear much of what the teacher says, you won't do so well in your exams. It's actually very difficult to recover from that later in your life.   We need an initiative which makes the best treatments available to people in schools and in local settings, where they can easily access them, and involving parents and teachers as well. And I hope that that's a direction that our next few governments will take. Because there's nothing more important to a nation than looking after the next generation.  Lucy: Is there anything that you would recommend that people read if they're interested in this podcast?  David: Something that I would strongly recommend is a Penguin book, that Richard Layard and I wrote recently, called Thrive: The Power of Psychological Therapies. That has quite a lot in it about the ideas behind CBT. It talks about how different treatments are developed. But it also puts out the very strong economic and clinical arguments for why we as members of the public should have much increased access to psychological therapies in the NHS; why the whole of society benefits from that.   So for those people who are interested in learning a bit about how therapies help your own emotional responses, but are also interested from a more political angle, about how can we help improve the mental health of the nation and allow us all to achieve our potential in the way that we'd like to.   Lucy: And actually some of the political context has been quite controversial hasn't it? About the idea of therapists perhaps being provided in job centres for example. And concerns around whether that is coercive in some way; feeling like they have to have a therapy in order to get their benefits. Do you have anything you'd like to say on that?  David: Yeah, I mean it's very clear; psychological therapies only work if you want to do the therapy. We should never be in a situation where people are being coerced into having therapy. It's just a silly direction to go in, because the therapy isn't going to work. Psychological therapies involve establishing a good, collaborative relationship with your therapist, and you working together.   So no one should feel forced into having a psychological therapy. They're there to free people from difficult emotional problems when they want to do that work, but not otherwise.   Lucy: A big thanks to David Clark for being interviewed.   Next up let's hear from some people who have experienced CBT for themselves. I went to meet with Jo and Frank at the Centre for Anxiety, Disorders and Trauma, or CADAT, which is part of South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust in Camberwell, London. First up is Jo.   Could you just say a little bit about what CBT is like?  Jo: I think the main thing about CBT, in my experience, is that CBT isn't really talking therapy, CBT is doing therapy. Unlike the idea that people have about therapy as the couch and the man in the white coat and all of that, what CBT does is go, "Okay, well we have this problem, we can't change what has happened, but what do we do about it moving forward?" And I think that can apply to CBT, whether you're having it for a depressive disorder, for an anxiety disorder, or for something else.   CBT is time limited. Most people get 12 sessions as an average. Here at CADAT we get up to 20, which is great. But it should be time limited, because what CBT does is it teaches you how to deal with the issues that you are having on your own, without the need to constantly keep going back to a therapist. My therapist is wonderful, and humorous and warm, but it's quite scientific; so we have an agenda, we catch up from last time, we'll go through the homework that I was set, and what I managed to do. And then we'll talk a bit more about what I'm going to do next week.   Another point that I wanted to make was that with OCD specifically it rarely sleeps alone. I had severe depression as well. So it wasn't, with Fiona, just dealing with my specific OCD fears but about ways of being kinder to myself and enjoying leisure time, and finding things that I wanted to do for fun.   A really good CBT relationship would begin with a genuine understanding of the actual problem. The specific OCD worries which I had, which centred around harm, it was a case of something called exposure therapy, where you put yourself in those positions where you feel uncomfortable. Let's say for example that my problem was I thought I would stab my boyfriend every time I was holding a knife – that's not what my problem is, but let's use that as an example.   So I'd have to just pick up a knife and not get freaked out at first, and then just get comfortable holding the knife. The next step would be that he might come into the kitchen whilst I was chopping vegetables with the knife. The next step might be that we would eat dinner together with the knife right in front of us. And so on and so forth, until you get to the point where you could hold a knife to his stomach and just know that you're not going to, you know…   So that's one prong of the approach. But the other one was very much about my lifestyle and things I had to change basically about the way I thought about myself really.   Lucy: What were the bits that you found particularly useful about CBT as an approach?  Jo: I like the way that you're not asking someone else to get you better; it's you getting you better, really, with the guidance from an expert professional. So it teaches you to be self-reliant. And I've found I've been so much more self-reliant recently, since having my treatment and being on the right medication as well, but that that's a different aspect of it.   A good therapist will always have a variety of different approaches. So another thing that I did was to keep a positive data log every night of things that I'd done that day, things that I'd achieved, or if someone had said something nice to me, or I'd got a nice text message – all of the positive things that had happened. Because when you're depressed you tend to think about the negatives. So loads of things. And Fiona's always got ideas.   Lucy: Are there things that you wish were a bit different about it, or that you would critique a bit about the approach?  Jo: There's nothing I would critique about the approach. What I would critique is the postcode lottery – which I have quite clearly won. I would criticise the lack of availability, particularly in peripheral areas, like Pembrokeshire, where my parents live. We all know CBT works, but it's people being able to access it which is the issue. I might get a bit political here.   Lucy: That's fine.   Jo: I think it's very much worth stating as well that if you cannot access any NHS CBT, and you're looking to go private, that you must always check that your therapist is accredited by the BABCP. I'm not just saying that because of who's conducting this podcast. But I do have experience of a private therapist who wasn't accredited, and I hadn't checked, and lo and behold it hadn't worked out so well.   Lucy: Is there anything else that you would like to add that you think people should know?  Jo: The sooner you get on any waiting list the better. Don't delay. Try not to take no for an answer. Don't forget that OCD UK and OCD Action provide an advocacy service for people who have been denied treatment. That's specifically for OCD obviously, but Mind and charities like that, do have an advocacy service, if you've been denied the treatment that you need. And that's not just for CBT, that's for anything.   There's a BABCP website where you can search for accredited therapists in your area. I think a big tragedy is that sometimes people get the NHS therapy, and they get maybe online CBT or they get maybe a CBT therapist that doesn't really know much about their specific condition. And again, I'm thinking specifically about OCD here, and that isn't necessarily particularly helpful.   Lucy: Massive thanks to Jo for sharing her experiences. Next up is Frank.   What was CBT like for you?  Frank: I mean it was massively helpful. It starts with talking; you just give the therapist more of an idea of the particulars of what's troubling you. Then my impression is that they go away and form for themselves a kind of strategy, a treatment plan. That's followed up by a kind of schematic diagram of the way you think and act, so that you can see the thoughts you have, the things you do in response to them, and the effect of those things.   So you see it as a kind of circuit. It makes it clear that the things you might be doing, what you think is helping yourself, in fact is just making things worse. And gradually, as it goes on, there are elements of exposure introduced where you are encouraged to face some of your worries – some of your ritual behaviours in my case – head on.   Once you start doing it, you're very much helped to see the anxiety as something that will pass. It does reduce as well; the first time that you try something it feels like a huge barrier, the next time the barrier doesn't seem so tall. As you take things on, it makes you feel stronger and more in control of your life.   Lucy: What did you find particularly useful about sessions of CBT?  Frank: There was a notion of theory A and theory B thinking, which is you look at your way of thinking. With OCD, which is theory A thinking, it will be things like if I do this something dreadful is going to happen. Theory B is more evidence based, the truth of the matter, which is that bad things happen whatever you do; there's no magic force that you can summon up to stop bad things happening to you. So that was really important.   I think most people who do have OCD know that the condition, it wants to survive. That makes it sound a bit like the alien living in your chest or something. And it is part of you, it's not a third party, but it feels like it is tweaking your good intentions to carry on being in control.   I think the notion of not just non-OCD behaviour, which would be not doing your compulsive rituals, not trying to repair things, but also going out and actively almost being provocative really, almost challenging the thought process. So you would go out and actually do the things that scare you, quite deliberately. And that's an important step I think because just avoiding them or ignoring them, it really isn't enough.   Lucy: Is there anything you would have wanted to be a bit different?  Frank: With this particular course, no. I've had CBT before that hasn't been so precisely aimed, I think, and it perhaps hasn't been by people who have a specific training in the OCD state of mind. And I think in the end no therapist can understand every condition. I think it does help if you go to a place that specialises.   And I also think it would be brilliant if younger people could have access to it. Because I mean I've been living with OCD for 40 years, and I feel I've made real, great progress in the last year with the CBT I've had here. But it would have been just fantastic if I could have had this treatment when I was 17 and this thing was just coming on, and I didn't know what it was, and I didn't know how to deal with it.   I wouldn't actually change the experience I had here, because it was great. But I would change it countrywide, if possible, to give more people access to a more precisely guided form of CBT.   Lucy: So really important for it to be specific to your thoughts and feelings and behaviours?  Frank: I think it works better that way, yeah.   Lucy: And is there anything you would want to add?  Frank: For people who are thinking about it, who might be feeling it sounds really scary to address whatever condition you have, it isn't as difficult as you might think it's going to be. You will be helped, you will be encouraged, you'll be comforted sometimes, if that's what you need. Do it, I would say. You can't lose.   Lucy: Again, huge thanks to Frank for sharing his thoughts on CBT.   Right, now it's time for a bit of myth busting. I met with Prof Sarah Corrie, programme director of the postgraduate diploma and MSc in CBT, and consultant clinical psychologist at Central and North West London Foundation Trust, in her clinic in London, and we went through some CBT myths.   So I've got a few myths here. I wondered if we could think about them one by one.   Sarah: Let's go for it.   Lucy: The first one is: CBT is just positive thinking.   Sarah: I think if we stop and think about it for a moment, it's easy to see that positive thinking if taken to its extreme is just as problematic as negative thinking.   So the example that sometimes gets talked about, and which I use quite a lot, is it's a bit like getting into your car on a cold, snowy morning. And you have a drive to do, maybe a drive to get to work, and you're thinking it's going to be a great day, I won't bother with my seatbelt today because I know I'm going to be fine. Actually that would probably be something that puts the person at risk, if they're going to do that.   And there are a lot of really good decisions that we make in life I think, that are based on healthy negative thinking; so taking out life insurance, insuring your house or your car. The idea of negative thinking being problematic is a myth, as indeed, if we take it to the other extreme as well, positive thinking becomes really problematic.   So the question then is what is it that we're really trying to do. And the way that I try and think of my role as a therapist, is to help people really maximise their choices. And there are certain ways of thinking and certain types of thought that we tend to fall foul of, that can really limit our choices and exacerbate our distress.   Lucy: Because it can be quite irritating, can't it, to be thinking you have to think in a certain way, whether that's positive or negative. A bit like someone telling you to relax; whenever anyone tells me to relax it makes me really tense.   Sarah: Exactly.   Lucy: That kind of opposite. Second myth: CBT relies on techniques but forgets the person.   Sarah: Techniques are there to be used, but they're there to be used in a creative way, in line with the formulation that we have of the client who is sitting in front of us.   If we are in a position where we are so focused on techniques, as therapists, that we're forgetting our formulation, we're forgetting the person, we're not actually engaging with them in thinking around what role these methods have, then I think we're doing bad therapy. And I think that's something that we really need to watch against.   Lucy: Myth number three: CBT does not deal with feelings.   Sarah: In therapy people come to see us because they're experiencing distress. So it's really hard to imagine how we somehow give the message that we're not at all interested in how people feel; it's the heart of what we're doing. And what we're trying to do is to think with them about what is the most effective, most time efficient, most enduring way of helping people change how they're feeling.   And obviously within cognitive behavioural therapy, what's really key to our thinking always is the interaction, the interrelationship, between how we feel, what's going on inside our bodies, how we think, how we process information and how we behave. So there may be a number of instances where, when we're working with someone, we might make an informed decision as therapists, that to encourage them to dwell more and more on how they're feeling may actually be disadvantageous to them.   Lucy: Myth number four: CBT does not address the real causes of distress.   Sarah: So almost as though it's like sticking an elastoplast over a bullet wound?  Lucy: Yes, and that's exactly the metaphor that's sometimes used, isn't it? That it's a sticking plaster, and that it might not be that helpful longer term.   Sarah: Yes. What I think is really important is the idea that the set of factors that get a problem going in the first place, may or may not be the same set of factors that maintains it in the here and now.   Again, I'm just thinking of a metaphor here that sometimes gets talked about, which is the idea that if you're in a position where you have an accident at home. Say you fall down the stairs and your arm is in agony and you can't move it; you suspect you've broken your arm. The first thing that you need to do is to attend to the broken arm – the arm that you can't feel or move; there's something in the here and now that needs looking at. You probably wouldn't sit there thinking, "I really need to figure out why I fell down the stairs; what was it at that particular point in time?"  These are really important questions, and you need to attend to those, but probably the first and most important thing is to get yourself to hospital. Then later on you can come back and look at your house; was there a nail sticking up or has the carpet come loose, or did something else happen?  So this idea of differentiating what causes something from what keeps it going in the here and now is something that we tend to talk with clients quite a lot about, I think. Of course that doesn't mean we're not attentive to the past, and that's where the myth bit comes in I think.   People don't come to us as blank slates, they come to us with personal histories, with stories, with narratives about who they are, about their lives, about other people, about life and how the world works, and we have to take account of those. The question for us is where are we going to pitch our intervention, and that's going to vary from person to person.  Lucy: And I guess that goes a bit into the next myth which I've got, which is: CBT isn't interested in people's pasts. Which I think you've addressed really clearly actually.   Sarah: Yeah, that's just not true. (Laughter)  Lucy: Yeah. So myth number six: CBT is a single psychotherapy.   Sarah: What I would say about cognitive behavioural therapy is that it's a family of therapies, fundamentally. And those therapies would probably coalesce around certain assumptions. So one assumption might be the importance of investigating our hypotheses through the scientific method.   Another principle around which this family of therapies might coalesce would be around the causal importance of cognition. Now different therapists would have different ideas around in what ways it might be causal, how it exerts and influence, and how we should think about and work with cognition. But there would be an assumption that that's a pretty critical idea.   But beyond that I think it's really important to recognise that there are some really significant conceptual differences. Human beings are complex, their stories are rich and complex, and there isn't any single solution, as far as I'm aware.   Lucy: So the next myth I've got is myth number seven, that CBT is simple.   Sarah: Yeah, I wish it were. (Laughter) I have some sympathy for how this misunderstanding might come about. It's actually based on a very simple principle.   Lucy: Quite common sense, actually.   Sarah: Exactly. And I think that's both a strength and a little bit of a pitfall when it comes to engaging stakeholders. Because there is a degree of common sense about it, it is then very easy to start thinking along the lines of, "So, if I just eliminate my negative thinking and think more positively, everything's going to be fine." Or, "This will be fairly straightforward," or, "Just a bit of CBT will sort this person's problems out."   Lucy: Or, "I've been to a one day workshop, I can do CBT."  Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And I think again that's a real challenge, to not confuse what's a really clear, beautifully simple idea, and how that translates into the delivery of particular interventions.   And when you come together to do some therapeutic work together, there are hopefully two forms of expertise coming together. So there's what you have to offer as a therapist, but at the same time the only expert in the room on the client's experiences, is the client.   And I think the danger within that myth – well, I think there are several dangers, including the idea that it's possible to do a one day workshop and suddenly you're qualified to do CBT. But also for clients as well, that there's an expectation that it takes just a couple of meetings with someone, and that's all they really need, and everything is going to be resolved. That can be problematic in terms of just the nature of change, and the nature of effort that might be required.   Lucy: Myth number eight: CBT works for everything.   Sarah: Again, of course we just know that that's not true. Of course it doesn't. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think there's any single intervention in any field that seems to be 100% effective, for 100% of people, all of the time. The field has progressed so significantly I think, partly because of people being willing to ask difficult questions about why isn't this person recovering, or why do people with this particular kind of difficulty not seem to respond to our existing interventions in the way that others do?   I think it's that ability and willingness to ask difficult questions, to gather data in a careful, thoughtful, and systematic way, that enables us to extend CBT into new and emerging areas. So I think that's a real strength of the discipline, and I would hate for us ever to lose that.   And therefore we can say, with some degree of confidence I believe, that we are discovering that cognitive behavioural principles and methods can be adapted to an increasingly diverse range of client groups. I think that's wonderful, and I think that would be perfectly accurate. But that's very, very different from saying that CBT works for everything.   Lucy: Thanks to Sarah Corrie.   In this next section of the podcast, I'll be taking a bit of CBT jargon and breaking it down. Today's jargon is a hot cross bun.   The hot cross bun is a way of drawing out the links between our thoughts, feelings, behaviours, and our bodily sensations. These four things are all linked to each other in a way that tenuously looks like a hot cross bun, and the cross is surrounded by a circle that represents the situation.   So to take a classic example, say I am in the situation of watching a film at home alone at night, and I hear a massive crash outside the window. I have the thought that that's a burglar, and I leap off the sofa to look out of the window; my heart is pounding and I feel scared.   The same situation, on the sofa, a massive crash; I have the thought, "Oh, that's next door's cat again." My heart rate slows down again, I feel mildly annoyed but slightly amused too. I stay sitting down and carry on watching the film. The thing that happened was the same but my thought about it was different, which affected how my body responded and what I felt and chose to do.   A key idea in CBT is that changing any one of these four things – thoughts, feelings, behaviours, how my body feels – can change the others. So changing my behaviour can change how I feel. Challenging my thoughts can change how I physically react; changing my physical state might also change how I feel, and so on. Trying to draw out these hot cross buns can be helpful, particularly in helping us to spot the patterns of behaviour or thinking which have become less useful for us. So there we go, a hot cross bun.   Right, that's it from me. I really hope you've enjoyed this podcast. Please do let me know how you found it, whether you'd like to know more on CBT topics, and whether you have a specific aspect of CBT that you're curious about. You can contact me on Twitter, or at [email protected]. And as Jo mentioned earlier, if you're looking for a CBT therapist and want to check that they are BABCP accredited, you can do this on BABCP.com. That's all for now. Thanks for listening.      You've been listening to Let's Talk About CBT, with me, Dr Lucy Maddox. Thanks to all of the interviewees, to Gabe Stubbing  for the music, and to Tim Ruffle for editorial assistance. Let's Talk About CBT has been brought to you by BABCP.     END OF AUDIO