Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Anthony Candela, Retired Vocational Rehabilitation Professional, Disability Inclusion Champion, Author & Essayist https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-04-21-2026/ In this warm, wide-ranging episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk reconnects with longtime friend and colleague Anthony "Tony" Candela, a retired vocational rehabilitation professional, author of four books, and prolific essayist, for a far-reaching conversation that travels from the state of the VR system to the shape of a well-lived blind life. They trade notes on what's changed (and stayed the same) over Tony's 50-year career in the field, including today's more holistic, whole-person approach to serving blind consumers, the near-universal acceptance of assistive technology on the job site, and the very real threats now facing the $4-billion federal vocational rehabilitation system as government shutdowns and efforts to dismantle the Department of Education loom. Tony shares his own journey with retinitis pigmentosa, the late-in-life lesson of learning Braille at 34 (and his emphatic advice that kids be taught Braille young), and the first step he recommends for anyone newly navigating blindness: reach out to the consumer organizations, the National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind, because they will welcome you unconditionally and teach you how to learn. The conversation also turns personal and literary. Tony walks through his four published books, Vision Dreams: A Parable; the memoir Stand Up or Sit Out: Memories and Musings of a Blind Wrestler, Runner and All-Around Regular Guy; the essay collection What Should Not Remain Silent; and the new romance-adventure novel Fire on the Desert Sands, co-authored with his partner Juliana M. Kotis, and explains the roughly weekly essays (66 and counting since late 2024) he publishes on his Facebook page. Kirk connects Tony's athletic background as a wrestler, runner, scuba diver, and skier to his own doctoral research on blind professionals in corporate America, where sports and other physical pursuits consistently surfaced as the crucible that built a strong internal locus of control. Tony pushes back gently on the "superhuman" framing of high-achieving blind people, offering instead the governing philosophy of his memoir: don't shy away from the struggle, go through it, and get good at going through it. The two close with reflections on how far accessible technology has come since the slate-and-stylus, paid-reader days of the 1970s, a shared appreciation for the organized programs and support systems that still matter enormously, and a mutual call to keep defending the institutions that make blind employment and full participation possible. TRANSCRIPT: Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody to another episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle Washington, Washington. And today I have the pleasure of reconnecting with a longtime friend and colleague all the way across the country in the Bronx. But Tony Candela is here today. Tony is a retired vocational rehabilitation professional and a true leader in the disability community. A champion for disability inclusion, he is an author of both fiction and nonfiction, a prolific writer of essays, both of us share time spent at the venerable American Foundation for the blind AFB and Tony. Say, say hi. Anthony Candela: Hello, everybody. Dr. Kirk Adams: Great. Great to hear your voice, Tony. It's been too long. You are always so good about texting me on special occasions. Holidays. I am a very poor correspondent. Back to you. But I do appreciate you so much getting in touch and so glad you reached out that we're going to catch up in public here on on the podcast. But for those of you who don't know me, I am Kirk Adams. I am a blind person, have been since age five when my retina is detached. I had the honor of serving as president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind, and prior to that, those same leadership roles at the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle. My PhD is in leadership and change. My doctoral dissertation was called Journeys Through Rough Country, an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. And I currently am managing director of my own consulting practice, Innovative Impact, LLC. And I've also started a new, a new adventure stepping into the role of executive executive director for a nonprofit based here in Seattle called the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion. So really looking at inclusion from a 360 degree view and thinking about race and gender and disability, sexual orientation and economic status and immigrant status and veterans and intersectionality and really finding it very inspiring to be involved with some, some great inclusion, diversity and equity champions. So I think Tony, you, your journey has been one of inclusion and fighting, fighting hard and consistently for inclusion of people with disabilities and people who are blind in particular. So I would really just like to hand the talking stick to you. And I always say Tony, where have you been? Where are you now? Where are you? Where are you headed? What? What's working for you? And what challenges are you? Are you facing these days? So the the floor is yours. And I'll, I'll reserve the right as a host to pop in with questions which may seem random at the time, but as they occur to me, I will ask. So Tony. Yours. Anthony Candela: Thank you. Kirk. I appreciate it, and it sure is good to hear your voice again. We really are old friends and colleagues, and your your newest initiative is a quite gutsy adventure given the political atmosphere out there, especially at the federal level with regard to diversity, equity, and inclusion. So God knows we need all the help we can get to not only to obtain, but as your institute sounds like, to sustain. Yes, this kind of effort. And it's it's just a tough time. And, and I have Dr. Kirk Adams: My, my dad, who was a high school basketball coach, would often say the times get tough, the tough get going. That's right. Anthony Candela: Yes. Which reminds me, my New York Knicks are fighting already for their lives. And it's only the first round of the playoffs, but we'll just keep that off to the side for now. Dr. Kirk Adams: How about that? Cj McCollum of the Atlanta Hawks. Tony. Anthony Candela: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: Unfortunately he he took it to him last night. Anthony Candela: He he. Yes. And that it's a hard way to to lose when you've been leading the entire game. And then at the very, very end of the game, you lose the lead and you lose the game. So it'll, it'll test the mettle, I guess, of both teams. So we'll just have to keep watching that. Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. Anthony Candela: As for me, I'm in. I'm in right now. I'm in kind of a retirement. I don't even want to say lol. It's more like a waiting and watching game. I was a part time employee for the last few years with the Mississippi State University, the National Research and Training Training Center on Blindness and low vision out of Mississippi State University. And I ran a program where we trained existing new blindness professionals in how to do good rehabilitation with blind, visually impaired consumers. And we gave them four graduate courses and that the program did not get refunded. And so here I am in retirement just waiting to see what might happen next. I don't have to really actively pursue anything. So if something comes up where it's a natural fit for me where, where they, you know, they would value what I bring to the table, which is a, you know, semi-retired person who's been around a long time, but I'm still semi-retired. So they, they, they'll probably have to see something in me as we talk. And maybe then I'll join, I'll join whatever that effort happens to be. But right now I'm happily I'll call myself in a retirement lull. Okay. I am pursuing my, my I guess my, my, my latest vocation is, is writing. Anthony Candela: So I do a lot of writing and over, over the last seven years, I've published one, two, three, four books. And the most recent one is, is a romance adventure novel with, with a co-author who happens to be my, my significant other. Juliana. And so she and I have published a book called fire on the Desert Sands. So I'll just get in my plug for that one book. Yeah, it's out there. And at romance adventure all, all the, you know, the things that the formula requires and, and also a bunch of science that I think maybe would add to the demographic because it's about a, a young woman archaeologist going to try to find going to a dig a dig site and to try to find some of the secrets of some ancient civilization. And and all of the intrigue as there are bad guys that don't want them to find this information and there are good guys and there all sorts of things that go on in the book. So it's, it's good. It's a fun read. At least I think it is. And I've only read the book about 150 times. Dr. Kirk Adams: Say the title one more time. Anthony Candela: Fire on the desert sands. Dr. Kirk Adams: On the desert sands. Anthony Candela: The desert sands. Got it. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So I, So I did have the question pop into mind when you talked about Mississippi State and National Research and Training Center on blindness and low vision. And I had the great experience of being on their advisory council for a time. And they they do great work. But you were teaching people who are new to blindness field professionals and rehabilitation. So you've been in the mix for a good long while. So I'm curious, what are, what are 2 or 3, however many things that come to mind that have changed in the space from when you first got your, your, your feet wet in vocational rehabilitation to the point where you're newly, you're teaching people new to the field. What, what are, what are some big takeaways as far as things that have changed? Anthony Candela: I think things that things that you would, you would expect actually, you know, the, the, the system, the system is operating very similarly. Now to, I hate to say it 50 years ago when I entered the field, that the overall system is working about the same. But the you know, the, the, they're much more liberal in terms of well, diversity, equity and inclusion. It includes, it includes how we, you know, how we work with the people who need our services much more of a well-rounded approach to the people. Not, not just that they have a vision impairment, but that they, they are a whole person. I think there's much more awareness in these younger professionals to, to that more holistic approach. Okay. They, they get to use and help, help you know, to procure the technology. We don't have, we don't have to fight the battle of justifying the value of and the, and the, and the usefulness of spending money on technology because the technology is so obviously helpful, especially for the job site, especially for, you know, the world of work that you're not justifying or they, they are not justifying nearly as much as we used to have to do back in the old days when people didn't understand the technology. The heck, we hardly understood it ourselves back then. So, so there's that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Anthony Candela: They, they now the people that take that, that took the course that, that I offered kind of are a selected group because they literally aggressively applied for and sought admission into this program, which was going to make them have to take four graduate courses distance education online format over a one year period, which really probably doubled their workload between what they do for their jobs and then what they had to do for the classes, etcetera. And so they were the dedicated smart people. I was very gratified in the dozens and dozens of students that I came across in the few years that I was there. Just really, really dedicated, smart people. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great. Anthony Candela: We're still, we still have a predominance of females in the field. And but, but there's enough males to, you know, make me remember that, you know the field does attract both genders. So that's, that's a good thing. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. Anthony Candela: And and yet, you know, sometimes they get bogged down in some of the bureaucracy that I remember from way back when. So they, they do have to, they do have to do the paperwork and they do have to follow the rule structure. Only thing I can think of that's a little different today than back then is we didn't have the federal government threatening our funding as much as, I mean, I, I had I had a couple of people who got furloughed right in the middle of our class, and they got furloughed for like an entire month because of some, some you know, flow of money problem or something that the feds were saying to that particular state. Right. And so we, we didn't quite have as much of that back in the day as as we do today. And and then also, I never thought about worrying about whether the system would survive back in, in, you know, up until ten years ago, I didn't think to worry too much about whether the system would survive. But now, now we even have to worry about the, you know, how the system survives and the shape that it will take and whether, whether we, we will get more restrictive in how we serve and who we serve. All those things that I say are the good things that happened over the years? We're kind of sliding backwards a little bit, or at least I'm afraid we're going to slide backwards a little bit. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, for for those of you who don't know, most of you probably are. We're talking about the vocational rehabilitation system, which is under the big umbrella of the Department of Education, which is under a sub sub umbrella of the Rehabilitation Services Administration. Federal dollars flow to the states, who then put resources to good use to support people with disabilities, blind and other significant disabilities in achieving or maintaining employment. And it's about a $4 billion budget. So there's lots of resources and lots of staff. And like many federally funded programs, the government shutdown has become a popular political strategy in recent years. So many various programs, including vocational rehabilitation, do get affected. And then there's the, the, the efforts to either dismantle or greatly reduce the scope of the Department of Education. So of course, that's worth a threat of a big change looms. So we we will here at, at podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams and at my website, doctor adams.com. We will certainly advocate for maintaining a national focus on rehabilitation services for people with disabilities, as only 35% of us or so are in the workforce, which is about half that of the general population. And I always say our our employment outcomes are either twice as bad or half as good as the general population, whatever, whatever metrics you're using and not of course, not only detrimental to people with disabilities who aren't engaged in the workforce and would like to be, and the resulting poverty and the stresses and strains and adverse life impacts that poverty have. But we're also robbing our society of the contributions of really uniquely talented, motivated people that can really bring great resources to the community. So that's my, that's my little synopsis of the VR system. And Tony, I, I invite you to add on to that or you started to talk about your essays, your books before I interrupted you. Anthony Candela: Well, first of all, very well put, very well summarized. And I have, I did notice one thing that I think has been the same for a long time when we were, I was working on some other projects with the National Research and Training Center, helping them out with some of their, their research projects because that's their main job at the National Research and Training Centers. They, they run studies applied applied research studies to see like, what are the best methods to to provide good service, educate employers, etc.. They adapted a job skill, a job placement skills training program. And then I was helping them test run the adaptation. It was a mainstream program. And what, what I noticed in that was how alone a lot of a lot of us are if we, if the best thing that could happen to us and it's just, it's just you know, what, what happens to us in our lives, whether we have this or not, but the best thing that could happen to us is if we have a really good support system around us. And there are a lot of people who don't have a whole lot of, of a support system around them or don't have any support system around them. And and they're out there and they're alone and they're blind and they don't they don't know. They don't they don't know how to bolster their skills until they get into organized programs. And I think, I think there's still a tremendous need for organized programs, because it's not the kind of thing you're just going to absorb from the thin air. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? Right. So, you know, I mentioned at the top of the top of our conversation that I've been blind since I was five when my retinas detached. So I went from sighted kid to blind kid really quickly. So what, what's your journey as far as your visual impairment goes? Anthony Candela: Born legally blind, partially sighted due to retinitis pigmentosa, which is a deterioration of the retina over the years. And there's different forms of it. The form I have is kind of your classic standard form of retinitis pigmentosa. So I had straight ahead vision only with eyeglasses. Best correction. I actually was improved to 2070 vision, which meant if I sat in the front of the classroom, I could see what the teacher was writing on the chalkboard. And for a long time I could read regular books. Not as fast as as a regular person could, but I could do that. So I was blessed with the with the fact that I could learn visually for a long time. And then as I got into late high school, early college, the eyesight was getting worse. And I started using alternative techniques back in my day when this was happening like around 1970 when this was happening, 1971, when I started college what we had were basically recorded books. Yeah. And an open reel tapes, which eventually became cassette tapes. And then, and then I think CDs for a while, and now everything is downloaded. Praise the Lord. So, so so that that and and faster, faster to obtain the materials you need to learn. So that that was what happened to me. And then then I just got less and less visual. And by the time I was in my late 30s I had given up my eyeglasses. I had given up really trying to do anything visual at all. I was pretty much totally you know, non visual. I learned Braille when I was 34 years old. Never got fast at it. Big, big regret. Rule of thumb, if you can get a kid to learn Braille when they're young, even if you have to force them a little bit. This is my opinion. Make them learn Braille if they're going to need it later. Because then they have a chance of getting fast. I never got fast, but. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's a brother. Anthony Candela: Yes, sir. So that's it. And then I was basically, I've been, like, totally blind you know and because it progressed so slowly, I don't actually know when I became totally blind, but for the last 25 years, for sure. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Okay. Anthony Candela: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thanks for that. So every, every, every journey is different. So. Yeah. It's I'm, it's interesting. Thanks for sharing that. So essays you mentioned before we started recording that you sounds like every week or so you're generating an essay and I love, love to hear about that and what the, the depth and breadth of what you're contemplating. And as you write where people can access that wisdom. Anthony Candela: Sure. Right now I'm just posting to my Facebook account. So, so not not really out there yet, but I, I did start writing a collection which, which went from 2021 to 2024. And I actually published that in a, in a book, I self published a book called what should not remain silent, which is might not remain. What should not remain silent. Okay. Basically that's my excuse for opening my big mouth whenever I want to. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, I like it. Anthony Candela: So, so that got published self published in 2024. And then I started writing again. I started writing more essays. So I just just took a look. As a matter of fact, I've got 66 essays written since late 2024. So almost, almost one a week. And the topics range from there's a, there's an awful lot of, of political topics mostly focused on our president and the people that he surrounds himself with and how they are functioning. And a lot of it has to do with how they're functioning not necessarily what their politics are. Like. I, I just posted an essay the other day that that had to do more with the, like the emotional of our president and, and, and some of the people around him especially you see it when like right now he's probably got gotten himself under more pressure than he probably ever believed he was going to going to be under. And he's done it to himself. And, and so there, there's, it's not so much anybody who reads my essays know exactly where I stand politically and how I feel about everything. But I don't, I don't push that as much as I do, you know, what are some of the underlying things that are going on here and the people that he surrounds himself with, it's like birds of a feather stick together. So, so if you, if you think about what those birds all look like, they, they do look a lot alike in, in terms of their kind of their, just their personality functioning and their, their character. I've also. Dr. Kirk Adams: I just, I was just thinking about the book, I'll get the title slightly wrong, but about Lincoln's cabinet, a team of rivals or a. Yes, yes, a group of rivals. He intentionally brought in people who had very differing viewpoints. Anthony Candela: Yes, I have read that book. Dr. Kirk Adams: I guess it was. I guess he was a decent president, Abraham Lincoln, so. Yes. Anthony Candela: Well, he was willing. Dr. Kirk Adams: He was. Anthony Candela: Yes. Because he was willing to do the hard thing. He was willing to have people, people who basically. Not only did they occasionally fight with each other, but they also. They also told him of, you know, their differing points of view. And if they disagree with him and they they made him hear the hard things. They they were not they were not sycophants at all. They they were they're individuals who told him what they thought he needed to hear. Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. Well, I just I just opened up Bookshare and I went to search and I went to author Search and I put in Anthony Candella. And I say, I see vision dreams, parable. I see stand up or sit out memories and musings of a blind wrestler, runner and all around regular guy. I see fire on the Desert Sands by Anthony Candela and Julianna M Kotis. Anthony Candela: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I see what should not Remain Silent by Anthony Candela. So those are your books. So you are. You're a wrestler, as was I. So talk to me about that. Yeah. And running. I ran cross country. You know before I ask you to talk about that. My dissertation I mentioned earlier and I you know, talked to blind people who self-identified as successfully employed in large companies whose names we would all recognize. And first I asked them, you know, what, by what criteria did they self-identify as successful? And everyone in some form or fashion said money, income, a salary financial freedom, you know. Enough wherewithal to be able to make life decisions and, and make decisions on how to use their resources. But then I, I asked people you know, what were the, what were some of the factors or what were the factors that they felt led to their ability to succeed in corporate America? And almost everyone talked about the strong sense of agency or strong internal locus of control, that they felt that they were able to forge their own path, that they could overcome problems, that they could figure things out, you know, as opposed to a strong external locus of control where people think, you know, things happen to me and I can't do much about it. Dr. Kirk Adams: But then digging deeper, they almost all talked about some event or series of events that gave them that strong internal locus or sensitive agency. And they are almost all physical. Many times outdoors horseback riding, rock climbing, downhill skiing. One, one guy who's totally blind and has a computer science degree and a law degree said, you grew up in a neighborhood where the boys, the 12, 13 year old boys would do these bicycle tricks, ride their bikes and jump off ramps and stand on the handlebars. And he said he he did that with the guys who ended up in the emergency room a number of times. But just curious about your reflections about that, your long career and vocational rehabilitation around that sense of agency or internal locus of control and perhaps reflecting on your own experiences with with, with sports and the other, the other corollary is another factor people talk about was being part of a team, whether it was a choir or a sports team or a debate team. So thoughts? Anthony Candela: Yeah. Well my dissertation psychology dissertation, which I didn't quite finish was, was on a, a different a different concept in the, in the same realm as as locus of control. It's called self-efficacy. And, and it was, and, and the dissertation was on exercise behavior as a, as a correlate of self-efficacy among blind and visually impaired persons. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Anthony Candela: And then what happened was I, I two, 2 or 3 things happened all at the same time. I, I had a second mortgage, I kept getting promoted and I didn't have a caseload that was going to be able to easily reach into, to get my test subjects and, and a few other things that I could have easily overcome all of those, but I had been going to school part time for so long that I just. I needed to stop. But there therein lies kind of the, the, the genesis of, of the memoir stand up or sit out. Because it is about life lessons learned through being a blind athlete. And so all the, all the sports that I mentioned in the title wrestling and running. But there, there's other sports in there too, like, like downhill skiing with a special, special you know, skiing organization cross country skiing, scuba diving, things like that. I was a certified scuba diver at one time. And, and all the adaptations. I even even published an article on that scuba diving way back in 1984 in the Journal of Visual Impairment and Blindness. Okay. It's it's there somewhere. I just but, you know, you know, I mean, they didn't I don't know what I would do because the computerized diving watch was not really that powerful then. So given that there wasn't that technology. Yeah. Diving watches and it told you some information, but it wasn't so much that you couldn't just make shift with hand signals, tactual hand signals and things like that. Anthony Candela: You didn't feel like you were missing anything. You didn't, you didn't do a lot of the calculations to see like, how long can you dive at a certain depth? You had to do those before the dive. You know, with, with pencil and paper, literally. Now, now the technology is so good that I, I, I could get lost trying to figure out how to adapt to technology, but that so, you know, as an example of sometimes when you didn't have the technology and you were forced to do things the old fashioned way, you just went ahead and did them, you found a way to do them. And, you know, and it's just an example of, you know, like you mentioned, teamwork, how to work with you know, on the wrestling team, you're with your buddies. And when you're running, even when you're running, if you're a blind person, you're with a running partner and that team work. And et cetera. Et cetera. So all, all this was in, in that memoir, that memoir was an awful lot about the last, the last part of the title, by the way, is wrestler, runner and all around regular guy. And the most important thing there, my philosophy is that we, we must, we must be careful not to super humanize some of us high achieving blind people. Anthony Candela: Because then we're not, we're not the best role models, though it does tell you what is possible. It does. And that's a good thing. But a lot of people will feel that maybe that low self efficacy or that, that, that, that external locus of control. So to bring them along, we have to, we have to kind of make sure that we, we let them know that not every, you know, we're not all perfect and we all struggle. And the key is to go through the struggle. Do not shy away from the struggle. Go through the struggle. That's what you have to get good at. Get getting through the struggle. And then if you, if you pursue like that, then then the good things are probably going to happen to you. And I wanted that message to be out there that, you know, we're just all regular guys in the end. And don't, don't super humanize us too much. Because then once you start doing that, you, you almost like dehumanize us. And I didn't want I want to make sure that we stay very, very human. And it's, it's coming from me. It's my personal, you know, way of looking at the world. And so that that's been like an overriding philosophy is, is like go through the struggle all the time. Dr. Kirk Adams: You talked earlier about people who are isolated, who don't have support systems. It's obviously much easier to go through a struggle if you have a support system. But you also talked about the fact that organized, structured, intentional programs can provide people with levels of support they wouldn't otherwise have, which I imagining lends great greater, greater possibility of successfully making it through the struggle. Yes. So if people are listening who perhaps are trying to figure things out, maybe new to being visually impaired or have someone in their family who's new to the situation, or like my parents had certainly never met a blind person before. My retinas detached and I became one. And we, we, we were not connected to communities or, or resource resources. I was fortunate, so fortunate to be that my family is directed to the Oregon State School for the blind, where I received so many gifts of high expectations and blindness skills and in that sense of agency. But the recommendations for, for people who are trying to figure this blind thing out. Anthony Candela: Yes, yes. I mean, the easiest one, the one that will work and, and is reachable is not, is not necessarily, you know, go to the VOC rehab system. Not, not maybe not the first thing, the first thing I would recommend are the consumer organizations, National Federation of the Blind American Council of the blind, and they have the national chapter, the National Organization, and they have the local chapters. Because they will start piling information onto you. And you know, like with the organized programs one of the valuable things that you start learning how to learn, I mean, in the beginning, you may be in a vacuum, you may have no clue about anything at all, and all of a sudden you're getting information and you're also getting instruction formal or informal in, in how to start to problem solve and also how to start to learn how to function as a, as a blind person. And, and, and learning how to learn is a, like teach a man how to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime. Well, there you go. Learning how to learn is about teaching a person how to fish. So I first, first step, I would go to the consumer organizations because they will welcome you. They'll welcome you. They're not going to give you, you know, say, well, you're not eligible for our services. Like. Dr. Kirk Adams: Are you blind? Come on in. Anthony Candela: Are you blind? Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Anthony Candela: Do you think do you think you're blind? Well, we'll take you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, do you think you'll become blind? Yeah. That's right. So aacb.org for the American Council, nfb.org for the National Federation. And I think you're spot on, Tony. Anthony Candela: Now I want to tell you about my my favorite most recent essay. It's on a lighter note. And it's just, it's a fun thing. I, I recently read a book which now they just made into a movie. It's a science fiction movie. Because I love science fiction and it's called project Hail Mary. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I've been hearing the buzz. Anthony Candela: Yeah, I'll, I'll email you a copy of the essay. Kirk because you'll just have fun reading. But what what it's what, what the essay is doing is essentially it's a book review. It's a, it's a review of the book. And it mentions that they had made, and it's the same guy that wrote project Hail Mary is the same guy that wrote The Martian, which was out a few years ago. It's the same guy and Andy Weir WEIR and so my, my fun thing that I have done in the last couple of weeks is to write a book review on Project Hail Mary. And if you're into science fiction and you are willing to stretch credulity a little bit you, you have to, you have to, you have to give a break to the author. Dr. Kirk Adams: Suspension. Suspension of disbelief. Anthony Candela: Yes, yes. Especially if you think about how they they travel at almost the speed of light to, to do some of the stuff that they're going to do in the book. That's you know, a long ways off in terms of our ability to do things. But you, if you, if you suspend the, you know, credibility just long enough, you will enjoy that book if you like really hefty science fiction. Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. Anthony Candela: Because this author does a lot with math and science and all that stuff, but I only bring that up not so much to promote the book and the movie and all that stuff. It's more to say it's just a fun thing that I will let myself do once in a while. Just just for the heck of it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Cool. And people can find essays on your Facebook page. Is that under Tony or Anthony? Anthony Candela: Anthony R Candela. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Anthony R Candela. So people go to Facebook and follow you and they'll get. Yeah, about every week they'll see some of your writings. Yes. And again, I read the titles of your four books. I did not. I actually did not did not know about the writing side of your life. So this has been very enlightening for me. And I know I've, I've respected you greatly over the years. I was certainly not, not, not, not too many years, but some years behind you and really understanding the community the various organizations, how all the systems work. And I learned a lot from you. When I, when I first got engaged in the, in this work and I really appreciate that. And Anthony Candela: I, I was working for the state of California and you were working at the Seattle Lighthouse, I think when we first made contact. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's right. Anthony Candela: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: But there's there's a lot more work to be done. I will say you know, you're reflecting on technology. When I, when I I started my undergraduate work in 1979, so a few years after you, but I took my notes every day in class with a slate and stylus. And in my dorm room in the evening, I would recopy them on a Perkins Brailler. And I sometimes could get my, I was at econ major. I could sometimes get my textbooks from recording for the Blind and dyslexic, usually read by a volunteer who was not an econ major. So the descriptions of the, the graphs were usually pretty, pretty interesting. And then you know, paying being fellow students who needed to read the same books, paying, paying them something like four, 25 an hour, whatever the minimum wage was so that they could read the books. So if you're going to be blind, now's a pretty good time as far as technology goes. And the promise of all the technologies that are emerging. So I. Anthony Candela: Would, I would say what you could do today is you could record the lecture and then run it, run it through some software. Yeah, it'll upload it, it'll, it'll give you, it'll give you a Microsoft Word document. It'll, it'll give you something that's Braille convertible. You'll load it to your high speed Braille printer or just to your device. Dr. Kirk Adams: Just read it on Refreshable Braille Refreshable Braille device. Anthony Candela: Right, right, right. What am I saying? High speed rail. You don't need that. You have a refreshable Braille device. And And there you go. And you could go off and just drink a lot of beer while all that's going on. Dr. Kirk Adams: Exactly. Okay. Hear that? Hear that? Kids? Advice from Uncle Tony. Use your technology and have fun. Anthony Candela: There you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Go. So let's let's have you back again. Tony. And just great catching up with you. The time flew by. So how can, how can people Facebook. Best way to connect other ways, ways people can get in touch. Anthony Candela: Yeah, I don't mind people email. I don't mind giving out my email address. I do it it's, it's anthonycandela [email protected], so [email protected], and the website is https://AnthonyRCandela.com. Anthony R Candela.com. Dr. Kirk Adams: Perfect, and if people want to get in touch with me my website is https://DrKirkAdams.com, DrKirkAdams.com. I have a newsletter you can sign up for that, which I would appreciate. And you could also look at the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion. The website there is I number four, SDI dot ORG. https://i4sdi.org. And I really appreciate everyone listening to another episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. Very glad to have my friend and colleague Tony Candela as my guest today. Tony, have a great rest of your day and a great week. Anthony Candela: Thank you Kirk. It's been so much fun. Look forward to the next time. Dr. Kirk Adams: Me too. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.DrKirkAdams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Eddie Pate, IDE Practitioner, Author, Speaker, Consultant and Board Member, Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion (ISDI) https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-04-16-2026/ In this thought-provoking episode of podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams sits down with Eddie Pate, longtime IDE practitioner, author, speaker, consultant, and fellow ISDI board member, to trace Eddie's journey from Army brat and All-American Humboldt State football player to senior inclusion, diversity, and equity roles at Microsoft, Avanade, and Amazon, where he ultimately led IDE strategy for a one-million-person worldwide operations organization. Eddie explains why he intentionally leads with the "I" in IDE, framing inclusion as the true engine of sustainable change, and he unpacks his signature "pebbles and ripples" philosophy: small, intentional, daily inclusive behaviors, interrupting the interruption of a woman in a meeting, being deliberate about who sits on an interview loop, expanding "who's in your kitchen," and "spending your privilege" to create visibility for others, that compound into lasting cultural and systemic change. From there, Eddie previews his book, Daily Practices of Inclusive Leaders: A Guide to Building a Culture of Belonging, walking through his 2IL model of inclusive leadership and the book's structure around the full employee life cycle. Dr. Adams shares a personal "spend your privilege" story involving his daughter and a car purchase, and the two turn candidly to the current climate for IDE work. Acknowledging the real harassment practitioners are facing, Eddie voices renewed hope grounded in collective resistive action, peaceful protest, local community engagement, and, above all, voting in November. The episode closes with a teaser for a follow-up conversation on power, privilege, meritocracy, and intersectionality, plus details on how to reach Eddie and order the book at https://inclusivepebbles.com. TRANSCRIPT: Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody to another episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today, I have the pleasure of introducing you all to Eddie Pate, who is a long time practitioner of. I'd. And e some of us say DEI. So I will ask Eddie to talk about why he prefers I'd and e as a title of his work. He's a longtime practitioner and author. We met when I joined the board of the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion here in Seattle. And Eddie is a board member. And Eddie, say, say hello, and I'll be back to you shortly. Eddie Pate: That was great. Hey, Doctor Kirk and audience it's it is wonderful to be here. I can't wait to have our conversation. Dr. Kirk Adams: Great, great. And for those who of you who don't know me. I am currently the managing director of my consulting practice, which is Innovative Impact LLC. And I'm also privileged to be in the role of executive director of the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion. We'll talk about that a little bit more. I'm the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind, Helen Keller's organization. Prior to that, I had again the honor of leading the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, where we employed 250 blind and deaf blind people in a variety of interesting businesses, including aerospace manufacturing. My, my, my doctor comes by the way of a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University. And my, my dissertation is called Journeys Through Rough Country, an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. And I know, Eddie, you do you do quite a bit of work in that corporate America space. So I bet we'll talk. I bet we'll talk a little bit about that. But really just wanted to invite you into a conversation. That was great to hear about your journey. Where, say where you've been. Where are you at? Where are you going? What's working for you? What are some challenges you're seeing? And we would really like to hand hand the talking stick to you. Eddie Pate: Well that sounds great. Thank you. You know what? I'll. I'll start with kind of my journey and where I've gotten where I've gotten is a lot because of where I've been. And I think that's probably what you're getting at as well when you're asking this question. So I'm an Army brat and I'll start there. My dad was in the Army for 22 years. I was born in Frankfurt, Germany. My mom met my dad when she was over there. She's died young. But she met my dad when she was working in Fischbach, Germany, where she was born. And my dad was a soldier, my mom was German, and they met. And the next thing you know, they're married. They have three kids. And the whole spiel after moving back to the United States. I was born in Frankfurt, Germany. We moved back. We moved all over the place. I think part of my kind of passion and understanding and love for difference and unique experiences and moments that matter has to do with me being an army brat, a military brat, traveling everywhere. So if you fast forward a bit, my dad retired in 1980 and and moved up to the Bay area and lives in Union City, which is in East Bay. And because of that, I ended up going to the Humboldt State University where Kirk, you'll you'll laugh at this, but I think you might know this about me, I studied wildlife management. Eddie Pate: Yeah, I, I really thought I was going to be a field wildlife biologist. But at the same time that I was getting my degree in wildlife management, I played football at Humboldt. And when I first went to college because I was only 17 when I went, I just turned 17 and started college. I was I hadn't hit a growth spurt. I was six feet tall, £160. You know, showed up to, to play football at Humboldt. And within the first year I gained three inches in 40 to £45. And so I ended up having some real good success as a football player. I was an All-American a couple times all West Coast receiver, all this kind of stuff. So what that ended up doing was leading me into what I had hoped to be a long NFL career, but unfortunately two ACL tears back in the late 80s. Ended that. So where I was in the Chargers camp, San Diego Chargers back in the late 80s, torn ACL. Ended up having a negotiated separation. Got surgery, spent a few years trying to hook up with a number of teams and then finally realized that my medical history was just an anchor on me, so I hung up my cleats. And then I started down the path of management and leadership kind of roles. And I started back at Humboldt, actually as the assistant director of admissions and school relations. And and from there I was, I was married at that time and we were living in Humboldt where I was working. Eddie Pate: My wife Val was working. We had a little girl and, and when she was six months old, we had both finished our undergraduate degrees and a master's degree. My master's degree was in sociology, comparative race and ethnic relations and social psych, and my wife was in social geography. So we meshed really well. Right. And we and we had a major professor say to us all right, you two need to go get PhDs and doctors doctorates and teach. And so Val and I left Humboldt, which is in very Northern California, and we went to the University of Washington here in Seattle, and that was back in 1993. Doctor Kirk So I'm, I'm aging myself in a big way. And so started the doctoral program in 93. We had a second kid in 98 Arthur. So we have one daughter and one son. And and then I finished my PhD in 2000 and my PhD was in sociology as well and was comparative race and ethnic relations and social psychology. So and then I was, it was at that point, I wasn't sure if I was going to go down the path of academics and academia and be a professor, or if I was going to go into the corporate space and you know, the path ended up pointing and I'll leave the history of why I decided not to go into academia unless you want to, you know, want me to elaborate on that further? But I decided to go the path of the corporate space. Eddie Pate: And I ended up meeting an incredible woman, Laverne, LaVonne, Dorsey, and LaVonne introduced me to who was the head of at that time, diversity, because that didn't say Dei or. Yeah, inclusion, diversity back then. It was just diversity at at Microsoft. And his name was Santiago Rodriguez and Santiago was incredible. And Santiago and I clicked and he knew of a role, in at Microsoft, but not in the HR within the HR function, but within the line of business. And that was really important because my first taste of I'd and E work inclusion, diversity and equity work was in a line business where I reported directly to the senior leader of a, of a group called the Enterprise and Partner Group. And that was Microsoft's. And I think it is still today. That was that was Microsoft's primary sales arm for not only the United States, but global. So here I was in a situation where you had to be, you know, culturally competent and understanding global differences in norms and cultures. And my job was to make sure that people understood I'd and E or diversity back then, as we said, principles and, and and dynamics. And so it was a great starting point for me. And then I'll speed up. And so then. Dr. Kirk Adams: No, that's fine, but I'd love to. Let's, let's pause here and talk about why. Why you prefer I'd and d as a as a descriptor of the what you practice. Eddie Pate: Absolutely. So look, I said d e and I for several years and it just started dawning on me that while I think diversity as, as, as, as you think about diversity, equity and inclusion, so diversity being the differences that people bring to the table, it's who you are, right? It's your background, your experiences, all those things which make up your diversity. But what I was, what I really wanted to emphasize and show was the power of really thinking about inclusion as the true mechanism for having and making change. And so and by putting I, the, I first and I'd and e and then diversity second and wrapping it up with equity. I was emphasizing the inclusion piece. It's not that the diversity piece wasn't important, but I, I used to talk and tell people, you know, diversity is about, you know, the diversity part is about, I don't know, 30%, right? 60% of what we should be doing is inclusion and inclusive activities and behaviors to make people who you bring into your organization feel like they belong to feel comfortable, to have a say. And so the inclusion piece and putting the I first just emphasized that point. And then the equity piece wrapped it up and, and, you know, made this just this wonderful, you know, perspective of thinking about how do we do this work? It's not the, it's not the strategy of bringing people in that we should be focused on. We'll do that. But it's how do we make them feel included? And how do we literally look at whether we are achieving an equitable outcome with our goals and our strategies? And that's why I lean towards I'd and E and, and gotten many people over the years to convert to that perspective as well. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I, I, I like it. No, I I'm against exclusion. I'm for inclusion. So I like, I like having that up front. Eddie Pate: Put it, put it first. Eddie Pate: My friend put. Eddie Pate: It first. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So just a quick question. So Lavon Dorsey is a name that really rings a bell with me. And what, what what was Lavon's role when you were connected? Eddie Pate: Lavon was in in Microsoft, and she was not she wasn't a recruiter, but she was a, a, a leader within the HR function. And, and I ended up meeting Lavon and she was a great connector for me in getting me to meet people at Microsoft. And we just hit it off when we met. And she wanted to make sure that I was connected in. And then again, Santiago Rodriguez, who we referred to as the Pied Piper of diversity back then. Eddie Pate: Incredible. Eddie Pate: We followed him everywhere. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I want to give a little shout out to my friends over across the lake in Redmond, Washington, at Microsoft. So when I was at the lighthouse for the blind here I walked into an organization that had a relationship with Microsoft already, and a gentleman named Howie Dickerman, who became a board member, was in charge of one of the work groups developing Excel. And he thought to himself, you know, I think blind people will probably want to use this. And I don't know anything about how to make it accessible for them. So we got up the phone book and looked up blind and found the lighthouse for the blind and drove over and introduced himself and you know, set up a user testing and getting input. So my Microsoft has really done some things around I'd and e that I think are exceptional. And you know, they have Several hundreds of of blind individuals on working, working at Microsoft. And they're not they're not just in accessibility roles or ID and roles. They are coders and programmers and managers and marketing people and HR people. And they. Eddie Pate: As it should be. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. So they've they've included people with a wide variety of disabilities throughout their organization. And they're a shining example. So I just want to point that out. Eddie Pate: And I. Eddie Pate: Love that. And one of the things that I like about Microsoft back then too, is, you know, as you bring different people onto, onto your teams, you know, there was an, there was an assessment that was made. And if you needed any accommodation, there was actually a part, an organization within Microsoft. And I'm assuming and hoping it's still intact where you would just go and you have a chance to you know, sample and see the type of assistive technologies that you may need and use them. So it was a central function for managers and hiring managers to come in and do this. And I thought that was I thought that was incredible. And part of the diversity team work that we did. I started out in PG, but within a year and a half, they pulled me into the the broader function and I was promoted and I had global role then for the diversity team. And part of what we did is we had one. We had one person on our team who was responsible for us working with people with disabilities and accommodations and assistive technology, and making sure that we worked in people with disabilities into our strategic approach to what diversity is. And it wasn't just about black people and women, as we used to say, right? Eddie Pate: It's just like not just. Eddie Pate: About race and gender, right? It has to. Eddie Pate: Do. Eddie Pate: With veterans, you know, status. It has to do with even size, right? It has to do with, you know, and with people with disabilities and veterans and, and, you know, and, and LGBTQ. So we, we really made sure that we had a part, you know with, with people with disabilities and, and, you know, assistive technology, it was, it was a great way to start my career, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Then what next? Eddie Pate: So after Microsoft, I, I ended up being head hunted out and I moved to Starbucks and I was at Starbucks just a couple of years. And I have to say, and it's, it's no, it's, it really isn't a knock on Starbucks, but it just wasn't what I was looking for. I found it to, it was it took too long to get things done. You had to have meetings to have meetings to decide who's going to have a meeting and then move in that kind of thing. And, and after being at Microsoft, the pace of work is so much faster that it really was grating to have it just be so kind of slowed down and bogged down. So I actually left Starbucks and started my own consulting company, which I had for three years. Back then I did consulting for three years and was getting my feet wet, learning what it means to be a speaker and a consultant. And then I had held off a company called Avanade several times throughout those three years saying, no, you know, I'm not interested in jumping back into the corporate space, but at one point I, you know, they came to me and said, look, we really want you to come join this company and help us design and move globally and inclusion, diversity and equity strategy. Eddie Pate: And so I ended up joining Avanade and I was the vice president of inclusion, diversity and equity for them for five years. It was an incredible role because it really was Avanade is very much a global company, and so I had opportunities to travel abroad and really think about the, you know, I'd and e from a, from a global lens. And then after Avanade, I was headhunted out to Amazon, where I was the director of inclusion, diversity and equity for worldwide operations. And it was one of the groups at Amazon where, and you'll know the group because it's the one that has all the fulfillment centers, distribution centers, the airplanes, the minute you are, you know, any family member hits, you know you know buy and the product is sent to you. That's worldwide operations. So and, you know, I joke with people all the time, Doctor Kirk that you know, it's this tiny organization that I was responsible for. I had 18 people on my team at the largest and we were responsible for 1 million people. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Eddie Pate: So it was incredible. So, but it was again, it was a, it was a really important experience for me because it had not only could I build on all the past experiences that I had, especially the Avanade one and the global nature of it at that point. But you know, it's, it's, you know, it had such a global feel. I had, you know, I had multiple trips to India, to Singapore, to throughout Europe and just had a real strong responsibility of driving inclusion, diversity and equity across a broad network of individuals, different cultures, different backgrounds. And, and when you have that, you have to figure out how to make it work and how do you scale? And that's, that was a lot of my job is to help figure out how do we scale to a million people? Yeah. So it was, it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Was my my mind boggling. For me. I mean, I, I managed an organization with 400 people, but a million, a million and scaling and communicating and getting shared language and shared values established seems monumental, but I'm sure very rewarding. Eddie Pate: It was rewarding. So that's the that's my that's kind of my corporate career. And then I retired in 2020, which you know what, I can't believe it's it's been 5 or 6 years since I've retired from corporate. It's crazy. And but now I, I I, and one month after I retired, I knew I just wasn't, I didn't want to not do something. I wanted to keep my mind fresh. I wanted to make sure that I was finding those moments that matter and having an impact. And so I started educate speaking and consulting, and I've been doing consulting work and speaking keynotes, workshops. And as you mentioned earlier I wrote a book with someone who used to work for me at Amazon. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Well, you know, I love and if you want to frame this any way you want, but certainly I'm sure you, you reflected upon some of these things in your book, and you do so in your speaking. But what are some of the key elements that people should keep in mind when they're really trying to create that culture, that inclusive culture in organizations? What are some either must must do's or please don't do's and, and, and maybe a couple of, of examples of good successes of people moving toward a more robust corporate culture around inclusion. And then you know, on a, on, on a little more somber note would love to get your thoughts on the current environment. Right. And some of the not full frontal assaults that practitioners such, such as yourself are living with. Eddie Pate: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, there are a number of things that I think people need to do to actually be impactful with I'd and e and this kind of work I have for years, I have heard people, you know, I've had leaders come up to me. Executives say, okay, Eddie, give me 2 or 3 things that I can do right now that just will move the needle. And in the back of my mind, I always go through my mind. I would say oh boy, you, you, you need a lot of help because there's, there's no one or 2 or 3 big things that anyone can do, in my opinion, that will actually have a sustainable impact and change for an organization in terms of wanting to become more inclusive or more equitable, or, you know, a company that integrates people from all over the planet in a way that's truly effective. I really believe, and this is a kind of a philosophy and an approach that I've developed over the years. If you really want to have an impact, you need to think about what are those daily practices that you could do that are inclusive and creates belonging. And and, and, and actually, this is one of those elements that is not overwhelming to do. You know, over the years, you realize, I've realized that everyone's so busy in the corporate space. And if you give them a big old project to do and, and they can't remove other pieces from their plates, how do they make room on their in their busy lives at work to do it? They don't or they don't do anything well, and they try to incorporate what you're talking about and they piecemeal it or do this. Eddie Pate: But I have found if you give them a daily practice that they can do. Right. You, you teach them what you know, intentionality is all about. If you, if you, you know, have them understand who's in their kitchen, right? As, as a, as a particular pebble that has an impact. If you and I can explain what all these are in a moment, but giving you broader context. So it is a matter of teaching people to do daily, inclusive, practical things that over time lead to systemic and cultural change. And let me let me give you an example of this. And then I can touch on some other pebbles and some other kind of guiding principles that I think are important for people to implement for I.d.e.a. To work. So one of the examples I often give and, and, and I'll set the context. The other, the other piece of context before I give you the example, is this whole notion of and dropping a pebble which causes a ripple. And so if you drop a pebble that causes a ripple, those ripples cause someone else to drop a pebble, which causes a ripple. Eddie Pate: And those ripples cause someone else to drop a pebble, which causes a ripple. And those pebbles are those small, inclusive activities or behaviors or actions that lead to systemic change. And my, my argument is that's ultimately what leads to us, to the change that we're looking for. And here's an example. So you're sitting in a, you're sitting in a meeting and, and we all, and especially the women who are listening to us or will listen to us in this. It will understand this example and appreciate it. Women are cut off 7 to 10 times more often than men are right in conversation. And so if you're sitting around a table in there and you're having this heated discussion, there's tense discussion and you're trying to get everyone's input and let's say Curt, you know, you know, Doctor Kirk, you, you cut off Barbara and you speak over her. And then in that very moment, if I drop a pebble by saying, hey, Doctor Kirk, why don't you hold off for a second? I want to hear what you have to say. But you you interrupted Barbara, and I really find what she says is super valuable. We'll get right back to you, but I want to make sure we. She has a chance to finish her thought, and then we'll get back to you. And so I dropped the pebble that causes a ripple. And so let's say the next meeting, you go to this next meeting and you witness the same thing where someone else cuts a woman off. Eddie Pate: And now that you've had this experience and you understand this, you might say, hey, hold on a second. Let me hear from her first, and then we're going to do this. And this is how people who keep dropping pebbles in ripples. So that's one little example. And if you think about a meeting of eight people, if eight people go to their next meetings and then you have, you know, it just extrapolates and gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and before long, it becomes part of the the culture of an organization to not speak over people and understand the dynamic of what we're doing. And in fact, I've done this very thing where I've said to make it a learning moment for people. I'll say, hey, Doctor Kirk, I, you know, I really want to hear what you say. But, you know, unfortunately, women are often spoken over way more often than men. So I just want to hold this off. Let's hear from her. And then I want to get your perspective. But in that moment, I also, not only did I allow or make it possible for her to speak, I made it a learning lesson for you. And so that's how this works. And there are just obviously hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of examples of what I just gave that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Shows the value. Eddie Pate: Of inclusive pebbles. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I assume the book has some some additional examples of pebbles that might, might, might be commonly picked up. Yes. Eddie Pate: And dropped in the water. Exactly. Dr. Kirk Adams: And. Eddie Pate: You know, I mentioned a few of them, like teaching people to be intentional. Right. Is this pebble that. So in situations where, you know, you have a true gap and this is one of those ways that you can have an impact, right? Let's say you have a gap on your team where you know, an HR functions, for example, usually about seven out of ten people in HR are women. Yeah. And that tends to be the data, right. But but that's for the lower levels of an organization. Suddenly when you get to director VP, you know, CHRO those numbers flip. Right. And so all of a sudden you have more men percentage wise in a lot of companies than women. So these organizations are led by men when the majority of the people in the organization are women. So intentionality would mean that we need to, the next time that we hire or we promote, or we think about who's going to join the ranks of director, VP and, and make up part of that leadership team. We should be very intentional in our efforts to make sure that we have women on the interview loop. We are. And if we. And so if it's not a if it's a company like Costco, for example, that likes to promote from within, then what you do is if, if you have senior managers are the ones that ultimately get promoted to be directors and then become part of that executive team. Eddie Pate: So at that, at that senior manager level, are you intentionally having development programs for women? Are you making sure that they have visibility to senior leaders and maybe having a mentor mentee relationship with senior executives on the on the leadership team. Right. With those high performing women. So in other words, you want to be intentional in how you approach these problems. And, you know, and when you get the pushback from some people saying, but isn't that reverse discrimination? Or are you, you know, and you just you just say, look, there's not reverse discrimination for one that doesn't exist. And the other piece is look at if we've allowed this dynamic to go unchecked and who keeps getting promoted and who keeps doing this are men. Because there's some biases, obviously maybe unintentional built into the process. So let's be intentional. Let's address that gap and then and make sure that we are giving women the equal opportunity and equity, you know, equitable opportunity to successfully compete for these jobs. So that's what I mean by intentionality. So it's a small tweak in how you think. And then I'll give you one other example. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Eddie Pate: That is a little, you know, easier to think about. I like the phrase who's in your kitchen? And we talk about it in our book. And actually it's got an interesting story. It is an expression that Doctor Martin Luther King coined and used back in the civil rights days. So he realized he needed to recognize who's in his kitchen, advising him and talking to him and helping him. Because who we invite into our kitchen are those people who we value, we feel comfortable with the ones that we are closest to are the ones in our kitchen. But unfortunately, we don't always have the right people in our kitchen to help advise us. And he recognized that he needed other voices that weren't just saying yes to him or agreed with him. So he needed other voices. So we teach people a simple pebble that you could drop that causes a ripple is how do you expand who your network is? How do you expand who's in your kitchen? And then not only how you expand who's kind of part of your permanent advisory group or who's in your kitchen. But how do you recognize in certain strategic decisions you have to make or problems you have to solve? Who you add temporarily to your kitchen to make sure you have a different voice. So it's just a technique for someone who's starting out to try to solve a problem, to say, okay, who's in my kitchen that I would normally use for this? Who should I be adding? It's an easy thing to do and it doesn't take it's not this prolonged three month activity. It could be something you can do in an hour and think about, man, you know what? I'm going to tap into Doctor Kirk because we definitely need some assistive technology and we need to be thinking about people with disabilities. So I'm going to make sure the doctor cooks in my kitchen for this discussion. Does that make sense. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah it does. And so you referred to the book a couple times. So let's let's talk about the title and, and what, what, what's involved in the book and what people will get out of it if they, when they finish listening to this podcast and order your book. What are you saying? Eddie Pate: So we'll start out with the title. So the title is Daily Practices of Inclusive Leaders A Guide to Building a Culture of Belonging. And the guide part is very specific and very intentional. You know, it's almost like a, you know, a field guide for birds or mammals for you, you dog ear pages. And you go and reference things and you don't have to necessarily read it from cover to cover to understand what you're talking about. You can go straight to this piece. So we wanted to make it a guide for daily practice of inclusive leaders. And so the first half of the book, it really deals with the foundation of inclusive leadership. So we talk about, you know, why leaders are key to daily practice of inclusion. And we really tap into what's called what we call the 2IL model of inclusive leadership. And it's a model of inclusive leadership, right? And so I've had this model that I've developed over the years as a as an executive and leader in the indie space. And we have these pieces of this pie. And I would argue that if you want to be an inclusive leader, you need to think about cultural competence or humility. You need to understand ethnocentrism. And the part that that plays in how you interact with people. You need to definitely understand your unconscious biases and how to acknowledge that and work with that in your organization. Stereotyping we do. In my model there's a part that talks about micro-inequities. You might like microaggressions, micro invalidations insults, those kinds of things. Eddie Pate: And then the platinum rule is one of those pieces where, you know, you understand the golden rule is do unto others as you want done unto you. Right? Actually, we talk about shifting your thinking to the platinum rule, which is treat people how they want to be treated, not how you want to be treated. So that's a piece of the pie. And the last piece that we talk about in my in my 2IL model, is this whole notion of what it means to be a tempered radical. And that's a and, and, and so, and so I spend the first half, we spend the first half of the book talking about the two YL model, what leadership is all about. And then, you know, really helping people understand, you know, daily wisdom, daily courage, daily heart and structure and accountability. The first part. So that's the first half. The second half is, as the book is designed, is based off the life cycle of an employee. So from the moment you start recruiting an employee till you recruit the employee, you bring them in, it's you know, their introduction to the organization. You know, a, you know, we look at internal movement, we look at representation by level and, you know, and we look at how people leave the organization. So the full life cycle of the employee. We have inclusive practices in pebbles that fit every piece of that life cycle. So if you are sitting in a meeting saying, what can we do to be better about bringing more diverse talent in? You can go to the section on that. Eddie Pate: We have that deals with with talent acquisition and recruiting and what daily practices you have or, you know, what is it that we can do as a leader overall to be more inclusive? And you can go to the guiding principles section in the, in the back of the book that talks about lead with equity as the in game, lead with intentionality, you know, humanize your stories, really, truly listen all these things that are not super hard but are super effective that you can put into place, right? Using your voice keeping it simple, you know, understanding. Here's one for you, Doctor Kirk understanding the power of spend your privilege and, and people have, you know what I've said and I've talked about spending your privilege. People are going, okay, wait a minute. That's a cool sounding concept. What do you mean? Yeah. And the whole notion is we all have certain privilege and, you know, you have privilege just by being a part of an organization, period, in the story. Everyone has privilege, but you have to recognize that there are other privileges that are your basic that are very basic to you. Men have certain privileges that women don't. White people have certain privileges that people of color don't. Right. But a black male like myself will have probably more privileges than a black woman. Right? So the difference is how do I leverage what privileges I have to create opportunities for others. So spend my privilege. So I'll give you a perfect example of it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Eddie Pate: What I would do is since I was always in an executive role in leader in the company, I often spoke at, you know you know, all hands events or I had opportunities to speak to leadership teams or, you know, at a company meeting or something like that. But what I did is I said, I'm going to spend my privilege. No, I, I, someone from my team will speak, but it's not going to be me. I actually want my E to speak and have an opportunity to do this presentation, because she has aspirations of being a project manager and moving out of that executive assistant function. And so I want to create visibility for her. And I have the privilege to do that. So I spent my privilege, I enabled her to be on the stage speaking. And honestly, this is a true story from my Amazon days. And Cynthia is now a project manager at another company. But doing this, she's no longer doing e work. And it was the start really was her opportunity to be seen and visible in a different role outside of what people expect from her. So it's spending your privilege. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, I'm going to give you my quick spin privilege story, and it's a family story. So we're living in Arlington, Virginia, and the pandemic struck. Our daughter was living in New York City. She opened an office there for a Bay area startup. She fled the city. She came to stay with us in Arlington, which the pandemic soon, soon came there too. But she decided she was going to move to Los, move back to California. And she wanted to she wanted to buy a car in Virginia because it was cheaper to buy a car in Virginia and put it on a train than buy it in California and pay the taxes. Wow. Smart, smart, smart young lady. Yes. So I'm I'm married to an African American woman. I'm white, our children are biracial, and Rachel is a 20, 20 something lovely young brown woman. And she came to me and said, dad, here are the numbers of five Honda dealers, and I want you to call them and say, this is Doctor Kirk Adams. I want to buy a car, a Honda Fit. Da da da. Model number. I'm going to pay cash and I want to buy it tomorrow and see what kind of deal you can get me. So I did that. We started out at 22 something and ended up at 17, but I but I say that and I think about intersectionality. Maybe we can talk about that next time. Now, if I had walked in there with my long white cane I might have had a different result if she would have walked in there with her 24 year old young lady self, she probably would have had a different biracial self. Yeah. Right. So, so there, you know, there are I've experienced privilege as a white man. I've experienced lack of privilege as a person with a disability. So it's just, it's just a very interesting kind of shifting set of dynamics depending on context. And I'm sure you find that often in your work. Eddie Pate: Absolutely. And, and really the cautionary tale for both the stories that we've told about is how do you do this and not center yourself? So, you know, and I think that is I think that's a really important piece. And that's why I love that part is you didn't center yourself, you gave her the opportunity to do it. And it's the same way I didn't go up on stage and say, oh, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm going to give this opportunity to, you know, Cynthia, to speak and do this because that would be centering me. I simply create an opportunity for her to have visibility. So that's the cautionary tale is, is do it in the right way. Create visibility for others. We're not there to rescue anyone. I'm not there to be the great male savior or the great white hope, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So I think your story is fabulous. I love that. Dr. Kirk Adams: I, I, I just thought you were so smart of her to understand privilege and affluence and power dynamics. Eddie Pate: And it's real. It's it is, it's absolutely real. And we, I, we'll have to come back on and, and, and talk about power and privilege and intersections of meritocracy and. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. But I do want, I know we're coming toward the end of our time, but I, I, again, kind of addressing the realities of our current environment, any, any thoughts, reflections on how people can keep moving toward a more inclusive world and any, any bright spots you're seeing or just any reflections you have? Eddie Pate: Well, so yeah, I, yeah, my, my reflections on this is, and one I always like to start that acknowledging that it is truly painful. It is truly hard out there for people. And you had earlier you referenced people who do this work and what they were experiencing. I want to acknowledge that people in current ID and roles in companies are being chastised and harassed Asked and you know you know, talk down to and you know, I, I've even experienced this in my current consulting one of my gigs where I did a presentation. I do I do human centered leadership work too as part of what I develop and, and having someone just question, why are we talking about Dei? I thought we weren't supposed to, right? It's this kind of thing. So I want to acknowledge that piece first, that I understand the pain and the reality of it. Now I do have hope and, and I think if you had asked me six months ago or nine months ago, Doctor Kirk, I might not have had as much hope as I do now. Okay. And where that hope comes from, quite frankly, is the collective resistive actions of just normal human beings. Nothing was more impactful or empowering than the people in Minneapolis, the people in Minnesota, and what. For me, it showed that you can shift and block authoritarian and racist and sexist and homophobic behavior by collective action. I am, I've always been a believer of, of peaceful resistance and, and protest as well as being very intentional in our approaches with people who are negative. Eddie Pate: Right. And so for me, I am more and more encouraged because of, of that groundswell of support. If you look at the no Kings days going from, you know, a million people, I think in the first set of no Kings protests. And now the last one was 8 to 10 million. And now you have people protesting in starkly red states, red districts. You have people protesting no kings in Hungary. And look what happened to Viktor Orban, right? Yeah. So so you're seeing some movement in in a way where people are just saying, wait a minute, this doesn't feel right. And, and like, yeah, I get, I get upset and mad about like there, you know, you, I hear interviews with people saying, oh, it's just gone too far. What the, you know, we need to stop doing this. I know I voted for him and part of me wants to say, well, that's part of the problem, right? Is we knew what was he was going to do. He said it constantly, right? We knew what the Trump administration was going to do, but people still voted for them. So part of my reflection is I'll never truly understand that because it was so starkly clear what they were going to do and why people ended up supporting and voting for him. Right. Not understanding what he was going to do will always escape me. I'll never understand that. But I do have more hope. I encourage. I encourage people to look. It's too hard to constantly be worrying at the national level and trying to shift change up their way that way. Eddie Pate: Right. Find ways within your own sphere of influence your own communities, your own neighborhoods, you know, your ability to like we live in shoreline, Washington, just north of Seattle, and we go to the protests. We go to organize functions, we support neighbors. I started, you know, when I first moved here, a chat group with all the neighbors all around us, we had this wonderful community that we now share articles and discussions and events that we go to. So I encourage all your listeners to find the ways that you can impact what's right around you and be part of resistive actions that show the collective nature of what we want in this country. And then here's the number one thing you can get everyone on, on, on your listeners and everyone to pay attention to is in November. Vote. Get everyone else around you to vote. If you have people pushing back, get them to vote. And that is. That is, you know, the best thing that anyone can do because we're seeing this. We're seeing massive turnouts because of resistive action. People are aware of the issues. They're not they're no longer being fed, you know you know you know, one bit of news because they always watch this. They're only hearing one voice now. They're now they're, it's expanding. So now use that same voice to get people to vote in November and, and move in the direction of human centered, you know. Dr. Kirk Adams: So that's a, that's a dropping of a pebble in your local pond, right? When you get someone else to vote 100%. Eddie Pate: Exactly. It causes many ripples. That's how, that's how change will happen, quite frankly. One voter, one individual, one person. You know, it could be as simple as is, is if you see someone or if you know someone who is an immigrant and is undocumented or something like that, they have a kind word for them. Those moments matter. That's what we're talking about. And in that very moment where you have a nice, you know, just say, hey, are you okay? Is everything fine? Like, you know, and it's, it's those moments that matter that we need to bring empathy back with. We have to be more empathetic. We have to understand the moments matter when we engage on individual actions day to day, right? We don't have to, we don't have to. We don't have to solve the big problem. We just have to be nice on a daily basis, quite frankly. Dr. Kirk Adams: So everyone be nice. Yes. So this time has flown by. I'm looking forward to next time. And we'll talk about power and privilege and meritocracy. It'll be another deep, rich conversation. But let's let's hear the title of your guide book, your how to how to Drop Those Pebbles in the Right Places book. Eddie Pate: It is Daily Practices of Inclusive Leaders A Guide to Building a Culture of Belonging. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you. I have it right here in my book. Share. There is a Braille ready file for you Braille readers out there. It's a bookshare and you can read it and enjoy it and learn from it. And again, Eddie, how can people get in touch with you? Eddie Pate: So multiple ways. I am an open book. So. [email protected]. So. EddiePate the numbers [email protected]. You can go out to my website. Just type in Eddie Pate speaking and consulting. You'll see my website and then https://inclusivepebbles.com is where my book is. And send me an email. I will share all my contact information with you. Phone everything. Shoot me an email at [email protected]. And if you want to talk, if you want to set up a time to maybe have me come in and speak to your organization or you know, just have a connected good to get to know you. Happy to do it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful, wonderful. And for me, my, my website is https://drkirkadams.com on there. I have a newsletter sign up and I'm on LinkedIn every day. @KirkAdamsPhD on LinkedIn. And I think Eddie and I are both involved in the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion. And we are going to launch a community coalition this summer. So we would both invite you to go to the we call it is ISDI to the ISDI website and sign up for email alerts. And that is www dot letter I numeral 4 SDI.org. And this has been a Wonderful, thought provoking episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. Thank you so much, Eddie. Lovely to have you back. For everyone listening, we'll we'll catch you next time. Eddie Pate: Thank you, thank you, thank you, I loved it. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Claudia Lorant, The Quantum Architect, 3X #1 Best-Selling Author, Speaker, Creator of the Quantum Omni Mindset Framework https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-04-07-2026/ In this deeply reflective episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams sits down with Claudia Lorant, bestselling author and creator of the Quantum Omni Mindset framework, for a candid conversation about trauma, healing, and transformation. Lorant shares her own history as a survivor of profound abuse and explains how years of therapy, study, and self-experimentation led her to develop a five-pillar framework aimed at helping people move beyond surface-level "positive thinking" and into deeper healing through meditation, subconscious reprogramming, and nervous-system awareness. The episode becomes especially powerful as Dr. Adams connects Lorant's ideas to his own experience of childhood blindness, hospitalization, and the lingering trauma that can follow disability, loss, and exclusion. Together, they explore how trauma can shape identity, habits, and self-perception over time, and Lorant argues that true healing requires more than mindset slogans, it requires rebuilding how we see ourselves and respond to pain in real time. The result is a thoughtful, personal discussion about resilience, disability, and what Lorant calls moving from a "trauma-informed" to a "trauma-reformed" perspective. TRANSCRIPT: Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences, and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. And I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And my guest today is all the way across the country. And her name is Claudia Lorant. The Quantum Architect. Claudia is a three time best selling author in the US and Canada, and she is creator of the Quantum Omni Mindset framework. And Claudia and I had some very interesting conversations about trauma and how she has learned to help people address trauma. We're going to talk about that. Particularly interested in looking at that through the lens of those of us who have become impaired and face disabling situations. But say, say hello, Claudia. Claudia Lorant: Thank you so very much, Doctor Adams. I appreciate your time and it's a pleasure to be here. Hello to everyone. Blessings to everyone. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. And we'll be we'll be back to to hear a lot more from Claudia in a moment. For those of you who are tuning in for the first time, I am the managing director of a consulting practice called Innovative Impact LLC. And prior to that, I was president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind, which is Helen Keller's organization. Prior to that, I had the honor of having those same leadership roles at The Lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, where I was involved with an organization that employed hundreds of blind and deaf blind people in a variety of businesses. I am a blind person myself. My retina is detached. When I was a kindergarten kid at age five, so I went from being a sighted kid to a blind kid overnight. And speaking to a therapist 10 or 12 years ago, I saw I was having some, some issues. I think related to the grief cycle. And I talking to a talk therapist and she asked me, you know, what? What did what have you done to to address your childhood trauma? I said childhood trauma. She said, well, yes, you were hospitalized multiple times. Painful surgeries in the hospital alone as a five, six, seven year old. Yes, my friend, you did experience childhood trauma. So when when Claudia and I had our first conversations and she started to talk to me about her quantum omni framework, I was just very intrigued about how that might apply to my own life. But Claudia's story is powerful and impactful and fascinating. So I asked her to join me today on the podcast. So Claudia would love to hear about your journey because it has been a journey. Claudia Lorant: Oh yes, it has. It certainly has. And, you know just to follow up on your statement about when you saw the therapist and she asked you about how you were dealing with, you know, your trauma from your childhood. And I think that it's important that we all understand that no matter who we are, no matter what a difficult adversity or trauma, whether it be emotional, psychological or physical the scars, the low vibrational frequency of energy that gets pre-programmed into your system is something that is not for, for surface level modalities of healing. Say, for example, I will use myself as an example. Okay. I am a multiple trauma survivor. And I am very much open to share. Just, I'm going to touch a little bit on that. And I'm a multiple Survivor of incest. Started when I was three. Molestation. Two rapes. Some physical and some psychological abuse. And so from a very young age, I decided I had two out-of-body experiences as well. And after my second out-of-body experience, when I had a gun put to my head and I was told, you know, I brought you into this world, I can take you out. And I was barely 15 years old. Still just an innocent little girl, really. And I'm obviously a very late bloomer, but you know, I had this out of body experience, so I am witness that there is a greater power that is beyond the realm of humanity. Claudia Lorant: There is an energy, whether you want to call it universal intelligence or the source or God, Muhammad Jehovah, Allah, whatever you want to call your God. I believe that there is a a higher frequency of energy that connects us all. And so what I began to study were the thinking processes of the human mind. What causes a person to perpetuate, you know, traumatic behavior? What causes a person to have the strength to break that cycle and break those generational traumas that really impact our lives in the present moment? That we're not taught about this in school? Okay. No church, no, no educational system that actually addresses this specifically, obviously, through the advancement of bioscience and quantum physics and quantum entanglement, you know, quantum consciousness, neuroplasticity, epigenetics. We are now at a stage of our human evolutionary existence where we've determined through research, and it's highly documented by authorities and experts. That trauma leaves residual low vibrational frequencies of energy that until they are addressed and resolved, they will continue to follow you throughout your life and will affect every single decision that you make in your life about your life, about your profession, about, you know, your culture, about your community is affected by the unresolved frequency of trauma and adversities. Doesn't matter what level the trauma is trauma. It's a low vibrational frequency of energy. And as we all know, energy doesn't die. It transforms. Right? So to give you a little insight, I have gone through more than 20 years of psychological therapy, not psychiatric, but definitely psychological. Claudia Lorant: And after, you know, 20 years of spending thousands and tens of thousands of dollars. And believe me, they helped. The modalities that I sought after through psychologists helped me to I describe it this way, no disrespect to anybody, but it was like putting a band aid on the scar. It helped me to psychologically understand and comprehend and dissect the thinking process of, you know, why things happened or why these things were done. You know, what causes the human being to do these things, right? But after, you know, 20 years of therapy, I still couldn't talk about my trauma because whenever I discussed it, it would take me back to that low vibrational frequency of unstable energy. I would cry, I would get upset, I would get apprehensive. I would start thinking about what are they going to say? What are they going to think? You know, all these patterns of habitual pre-programmed behavior that was instilled in us when we didn't even have a choice because we were just kids, right? Because we obviously have the pre-programming of the subconscious mind through whatever our parents, their circumstances, whether they be familial or cultural or religious, that those environments that they grew up in, along with the unresolved traumas of their parents and their parents, parents. And so. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, you know, when you start talking. That's what came to my mind is I've, I've become aware that that's a thing I carry trauma from previous generations of your family into your life. So I, I hope we have some time to explore that, that that that that is a mind blower. Claudia Lorant: Well, let me let me share a little bit of, of how I came to create, to creating, you know, a very high level, profound framework that encompasses all of the vital and important modalities of therapeutic healing that I had to create on my own. Because for the last 25 years I've been diagnosed as a autodidactic polymath. So I'm self-taught. I didn't have the opportunity to graduate from college. And so I've always been a seeker of knowledge and a thirst for wisdom. And so for the last 25 years, I've been studying psychoneuroimmunology, quantum physics, quantum entanglement, neuroplasticity, Epigenetics. Positive psychology and metacognition. And the reason why I began studying these different modalities is because I realized that the therapies that I had spent so much money and dedicated so much time to, never taught me about how the trauma is in your ancestral lineage and how biologically it is transferred to your offspring. And so for me, that research led me to write down at one moment in my life, I had a what people call a dark moment of the soul where I really questioned everything. And so I just, I'm a writer and an author. So I just wrote all of my emotions down. I wrote them down. I mean, I literally just cried onto the paper as I wrote and I feel like that was so cathartic in and of itself. So I ended up sending it to my agent in LA, and I was cast as a part of a cast of six castmates. For the first ever documentary style reality television show about spiritual transformation and trauma healing. So I have not only done the research, I have literally done and documented the actual work that I've done for the whole world to see. And what I have, you know, come to terms with is that after all these years of research and dedication to healing, I was able to heal myself by implementing these five different modalities of therapeutic transcendental healing. Dr. Kirk Adams: And that's the framework. Claudia Lorant: Yes, that is the framework. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Claudia Lorant: And yeah, and then touching on what you mentioned about the ancestral lineage and the trauma as it is inherited, obviously, and now we know that for a fact. There are different actual work that you can do on yourself. Like past regression hypnosis. There is a lot there are different neurological neuroscience that tactics that can really help you to evolve through that process. So you know, I actually talk about that in my I've got a ton of resources on my website, but what I, so what I did when I began to do is I used myself as my own case study and I implemented my quantum omni mindset, which is a paradigm shift, but this is a A quantum leap in paradigm shifts because of the fact that I created the five pillar framework, which consists of quantum omni vision, intuition, and perspective. Okay. And then I, I incorporate it into my framework, which has now expanded into quantum omni intelligence and quantum omni architecture. And what I have concluded from all of my research is that most modalities of healing really touch on surface level behavior. They want you, they, you know, they really preach that you should, you know, teach I'm sorry, level up your mindset because everybody and their grandmother right now is talking about mindset and leveling up your mindset. Well, that really touches on superficial, not a deeper dive into connecting the mind, the body, the entire neurological system of your body. Everything that is entailed and what trauma touches. So what I did is I built this framework that's not built on theory alone. It's a directional align. It's directionally aligned with modern research across behavioral sciences like neuroscience, psycho neuro immunology habit forming patterns metacognition and pardon me, there was just huge thunder and lightning outside. All of a sudden. So pardon me for that metacognition and contemplative sciences. And so while most you know, modalities are impersonal development focused on mindset, I operate at a level that actually creates a new architecture. A cognitive architecture and an identity architecture where we do subconscious programming. We address nervous system regulation and it's a perceptual architecture. Dr. Kirk Adams: We are back. So Claudia mentioned a huge flash of lightning and a huge peal of thunder, and it disconnected her internet. I did mention earlier that she is far away across the country. I'm in Seattle and you are in. Claudia Lorant: Miami. Dr. Kirk Adams: Miami, Miami Beach. So I just I just imagined myself in Miami Beach in a big thunderstorm, so I can. Claudia Lorant: Yes. Thank you very much for reconnecting. Claudia Lorant: I appreciate it. So Dr. Kirk Adams: So I did want to ask so you. Claudia Lorant: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: You talk about the framework and you talked about your research and you talked about the five I think is modalities, the word you use pillars. Claudia Lorant: The pillars. Dr. Kirk Adams: So you help. You help guide people through. Applying this framework to their own circumstances, their own lives. And you started with yourself, it sounds like. But could could you walk us through the five pillars and maybe give a little. Example or deep deeper explanation of each one. Is that something that would work for you? Because I would like to I would like to hear that. Claudia Lorant: You know. Claudia Lorant: A lot of these different modalities really operate at a level of conscious cognition, but without restructuring your actual identity at its core, the internal model that governs perception, behavior, and decision making. So what I discovered and created is the roadmap so that you don't just upgrade your thinking, you upgrade the thinker, you upgrade the not just your thinking, but your internal architecture in connection with your cognitive architecture. And when you apply metacognition, I teach you how to take a quantum leap beyond to the realm of the five Sensory Perceptive Society, the multi-sensory Perceptive Society, into what I have coined, the Quantum Omni Perceptive Society. And that is where you are actually capable of aligning your subconscious and conscious minds through your Higher self so that you evolve your your, the vision of who you are, of how you see things, which obviously at that point, once you see how it is that you think it's an, it's an observation and a perspective that encompasses many different. Paths to what the situation is you're dealing with. So instead of being linear, thinking, it's multidimensional and it allows you to reprogram your subconscious and conscious mind so that it's a whole process. And you know, there's a meditation in the morning. You can pre-program, you know how you at night before I go to sleep. Dr. Kirk Adams: I am a, I am a every morning meditator myself. So I. Dr. Kirk Adams: Get that. Claudia Lorant: Yes, that is amazing. I think it's such a wonderful thing to see how society as a whole is a collective consciousness is really taking the the modality of meditation to heart. It's a huge movement. And so it's a beautiful thing to see that people are elevating their consciousness as a collective. So I actually created the roadmap through implementing implementation of my framework so that. Dr. Kirk Adams: I could. Dr. Kirk Adams: Could, could you walk me through the five pillars of the framework again, and maybe a little bit of an explanation or an example, something I, I hear the words, but I want to internalize it more. Claudia Lorant: Absolutely. Okay. So the first pillar is quantum omni vision. That's the first pillar of my framework, which I designed to elevate level up your vision of how you see yourself through the alignment of your higher self. So that's evolving your perspective as to how you see yourself. Okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: And meditation, the meditation part of that. Claudia Lorant: The meditation is what you use to connect to your higher self. Yes, sir. That's the first. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Claudia Lorant: And then once you've gone through the the courses that I have and you get you pass the exam, you get your certification, then you go into the second pillar, which is quantum omni intuition. And through quantum omni intuition, what I, I guide you through through the meditation process is to learn how to align your conscious and subconscious mind to universal intelligence. So you tap into the frequency at a quantum level. So what that connection and alignment does for the human psyche is that it opens you up to all the possibilities that the universe has. So your perspective, not just how you envision yourself, but how you go inward and feel physically, the alignment at the quantum level. Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm super interested in that and learning how to follow my intuition. I've been pretty, pretty much sketch out the roadmap and follow the roadmap. And I've ignored, I've, I think I've ignored a lot of intuitive information that I shouldn't have ignored in my life. So I'm trying to. Dr. Kirk Adams: You. Dr. Kirk Adams: Know, I'm really trying to learn about that. Claudia Lorant: Well, thank you. I'm so happy to hear that because you're not alone. You know, hundreds of millions of people in the world have never heard this because I created it and I literally researched, there is not a combination of the different modalities that actually encompass the entire scope of the human body, the psyche, the mind that, you know, your nervous system. You know, it's just, it's brilliant. Claudia Lorant: So okay, I can. Claudia Lorant: Say that myself. But so the third pillar is quantum omni perspective. And so that is the process of you learning how at night before you go to bed, you listen to different guided meditations and they can be, you know, five, ten, 15 minutes. It can be 20 minutes or 30 minutes. I've developed them all. And what you do is you pre-program your subconscious mind. So as you're falling asleep and your brainwaves are going deep into your subconscious through the theta brainwave, you are actually reprogramming while your conscious mind is still working, and you align that while you're sleeping. And so what I, what that, what that causes is for you to be able to have the roadmap to when you wake up in the morning and meditate again, your cognizant, Your conscious mind is now subliminally and subconsciously aligned at the quantum level. So you are more it's more conducive for your thinking process throughout the day when you set your intentions for the day. You are now setting them in alignment with universal intelligence and divine frequency at the quantum level. Dr. Kirk Adams: Cool. Claudia Lorant: Yes. So I'm really excited for the opportunity to share this with you all. I'm very excited. I'm really just I sometimes have to just pause and breathe in deeply. Because I really feel that presence of that alignment and it's just such a joyous and beautiful feeling of certainty and confidence. And it's like you tap into such a quantum level of intelligence and wisdom that really is impactful to your life. And pardon me, I'm going to drink a little coconut water. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay? Claudia Lorant: What it also does is that and this is something that is very important that I share, which is that most people don't realize that because we have not been taught this, that through neuroplasticity and epigenetics, you know, the way your gene expressions are able to transform through your thoughts, through your ability to connect to your higher self through meditation. How neuroplasticity. Now, you know, we've just now are touching on this point of our human evolutionary research and knowledge and data that we now have, right? And so to be able to implement a framework That not only teaches you how to overcome your trauma, but this is the key here to my framework, is I teach you and guide you through the transcendence of your past traumas and adversities. So you're not just somewhat putting a bandaid on it and then having it resurface, because subconsciously it'll resurface automatically because you haven't resolved that trauma. So through my, through my process, what I guide you through is you not only transcend the trauma, but then I take you a step further through quantum intelligence. And that is a deeper, higher level of alignment at the quantum level, which helps you and guides you, teaches you how to transmute once again through meditation, that low vibrational frequency of energy that was created physically, cognitively, that affected your architecture that you weren't taught how to resolve. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Claudia Lorant: So it's transformation and transmutation of. Dr. Kirk Adams: And. Dr. Kirk Adams: What's the fourth pillar called? Claudia Lorant: Oh, quantum omni intelligence. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's what we're talking about right now. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Right now. Yes. So I just. Claudia Lorant: Walked you through the, the process as I teach it. And then finally it's I've institutionalized, I've been very fortunate in that I've touched enough people's hearts that I've been asked to help create the curriculum for the first AI technical high school here in. Claudia Lorant: Miami. Claudia Lorant: County. So I see the impact that transcending and transmuting your traumas is having and how quickly people are starting to pick it up because they've been yearning for it. They just didn't know how to articulate it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Yes. And so and. Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm not I haven't abandoned my linear thinking yet. So now I need to write down the name of the fifth pillar. Claudia Lorant: Okay. So the the fifth is the quantum architect you become. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Claudia Lorant: The quantum omni architect. So you actually, I teach you how to become the architect of your psychological, physiological, neurological, cognitive identity through this process. And so now you're capable of implementing your own architecture customized to yourself so that then you can go back and do the work that you need. I mean, I can hold your hand and guide you through it, or you can work on it for yourself and then reconnect. And I can see that. And I have assessments, obviously, that I take that I have my my clients take whereby we actually have, you know, key performance indicators that show what, which pillar is working best for you. And then we focus on those that you really need in order to transcend and transmute. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I mentioned my childhood trauma when you described the traumas you've experienced. Some of them occurred when you were a small child. Dr. Kirk Adams: But yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: Trauma also happens throughout life. Some people. Claudia Lorant: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: I guess everyone experiences some levels of trauma, but you know, some, some have their most traumatic events as adults and, you know, most blindness is the impairment that I'm most familiar with. Think about the most. So most of us are not totally blind. Most of us have some usable vision. Many people acquire their visual impairment as they age. So for instance, I know a lot of people with a condition called retinitis pigmentosa That starts usually with night night blindness. Then the peripheral vision erodes and erodes until a person is seeing through a smaller and smaller little tunnel, like looking through a drinking straw. At some point, and then for most people, it closes. So a person becomes totally blind. These people may be in their 30s, 40s 50s, but they've lived as sighted people. And then they one of the most things people remark on the most is having to give up driving and that independence and freedom. And then it's, you know, not being able to read a book like they are used to or, or read their mail or you know, enjoy watching their grandchildren. So, you know, I, I would think those would fall into the category of trauma, but they're kind of ongoing. And then of course, we have higher incidence of accidents because we can't see you know, people with mobility impairment, you know, people in a wheelchair will. You know, I'm invited to a party and I get there and there's two flights of steps and I can't go in. Dr. Kirk Adams: You know, some. Dr. Kirk Adams: Sometimes we call those microaggressions. But I could also, I could also call them mini traumas. Claudia Lorant: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Dr. Kirk Adams: So how does your framework apply to kind of that fluid continuum of trauma? Claudia Lorant: So this is the thank you. First of all, thank you so very much for sharing, because hearing it, reading about it and then hearing it is from a person who has experienced it just really takes me to a whole different level of understanding and empathy and sympathy, obviously, because, you know, most people don't think about those things, but I'm not most people. So to answer your question interestingly enough, this is why this framework As you apply it in your life. No matter what degree of trauma you have had or you are currently going through, through my framework, you're able to learn how to transform the energy of that trauma so that you can perceive through metacognition and identify in real time when you are falling into the old habitual patterns of preprogrammed behavior that was caused by the trauma where you can now identify. It's like you program your subconscious and conscious mind, your psyche to identify. And so now you're capable of preventing that low vibrational frequency and pain of the trauma to extend into all other aspects of your life. So this is an on going evolutionary therapy that actually helps you address the trauma at its core, and then helps you to identify when your old patterns of behavior. Claudia Lorant: Which become habits, which is why when people just talk about, oh, leveling up your, you know, think positive, change your mindset. Claudia Lorant: Well, that. Claudia Lorant: Yeah, that's not at the deeper level that I'm talking to you about. I'm talking about real time. You actually program your mind and your psyche to identify in real time when that pain of the trauma is coming to affect you, because ultimately, without you even knowing it, and no matter how simple you want to think the trauma was or how much you don't want to think about it because you don't want to go there. That trauma extends into the way you think, the way you the way your thinking processes how you think of yourself, how you see others and your own personality and opinion of yourself, your belief system of who you are is what translates into you having a thinking process that is affected by that one linear perspective. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right, right, right, right. So when you say superficial, what I think about is when I see comments, positive vibes only, I always think, well, that's you're not, you're not dealing with, you're not dealing with the world. Claudia Lorant: Exactly. Dr. Kirk Adams: You're not dealing with the world the way it is. Claudia Lorant: That it? Claudia Lorant: Thank you. Claudia Lorant: You just hit. Claudia Lorant: The nail. Claudia Lorant: On the head. That was the perfect example, right? Claudia Lorant: Absolutely. It takes much more than just Thinking your way to changing your habits, you actually have to reconstruct and re-architecture your own identity through your cognitive perspective. And so yeah. Claudia Lorant: I, well, I. Dr. Kirk Adams: Claudia this time has flown by and I, it's just, I feel like I've gotten a taste. I certainly have a deeper understanding. And the first time we had a conversation when you introduced your framework to me the first time. So I'm looking forward to going deeper. And for those who are listening, who want want to learn more, what's the best way they can connect with you? Claudia Lorant: Well, my name is Claudia, C L A U D I A, and my last name is the Spanish spelling of the word of the name Lorant. It's spelled L as in Larry, O as in Oscar, R as in Ralph, A as in Alpha, N as in Nancy, and T as in Tom. So you can go to https://ClaudiaLorant.com, where I have a ton of free resources to guide you through the understanding of the terminology that will help you truly evolve your mindset at the quantum level. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I really, really appreciate the fact that you reached out to me and that we connected and are getting to know one another and helping support each other's good work. I look forward to breaking bread with you next time in Miami, or if you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Find yourself in. Dr. Kirk Adams: Seattle. Claudia Lorant: And thank you. Claudia Lorant: So. Claudia Lorant: Much. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And for those listening who want to get in touch with me, my website is Dr. as in doctor, https://DrKirkAadams.com and you can sign up for my newsletter there. We can keep in touch. And Claudia, it's been a pleasure and I look forward to talking with you again soon. And I just want to encourage you to keep up your good work. The more harm, the more trauma. We we can heal and deal with in this world, the better for all of us, right? Claudia Lorant: That's exactly right. I am not into trauma informed perspectives. I'm into trauma reformed perspective. So thank you so much for your time, Doctor Adams. Blessings to you. Dr. Kirk Adams: And you enjoy your thunderstorm. Claudia Lorant: I will do that. Thank you so much. Com. Okay my dear. Take care. Bye bye. Dr. Kirk Adams: Bye. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Sucheta Narang, Founder, Accessible World, Creator, Access Trader https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-02-27-2026/ In this insightful episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams welcomes Sucheta Narang, founder of Accessible World and creator of Access Trader, an accessible, screen-reader-compatible trading assistant, into a wide-ranging conversation about independence, inclusion, and financial empowerment. Born blind in a traditional North Indian family, Sucheta describes learning early that "waiting for a fix" wasn't an option, then charts a path through mainstream education, international disability work in India and the UK, and corporate roles where she embedded accessibility at scale, including work with Wipro, Google (Chrome team), and Adobe. Sucheta explains that losing her job became the unexpected catalyst for building Access Trader: when she tried to diversify her investments, advisors turned her away, and the trading world's dashboards and charts proved overwhelmingly visual, forcing her to confront how much "financial independence" still relies on sighted assistance. She shares how she used AI to translate visual market data into structured descriptions her screen reader could interpret, turning a personal workaround into a platform designed "by and for" blind users, with benefits even for sighted beginners who feel overwhelmed by dense trading interfaces. Dr. Adams, drawing on his own background as a former securities broker, highlights the privacy and dignity at stake, and Sucheta closes with an invitation to sign up for early access and see Access Trader's next steps, including a planned CSUN presentation. TRANSCRIPT: Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of podcasts with Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have a really interesting and amazing guest. Sucheta Narang is here. She's the founder of Accessible World and creator of Access Trader, which is the first accessible screen reader compatible trader trading assistant. So we're talking about securities and trading securities here. So say say hello. Sucheta. Sucheta Narang: Hi. Sucheta Narang: Everyone. And thank you Doctor Adams, for inviting me here. It's a pleasure to meet you. Before I actually could you. How do I address you? Is it like Doctor Adams or Doctor Kirk? Dr. Kirk Adams: Kirk. That's fine. Sucheta Narang: Okay. Thanks. Kirk. Yeah. Nice to meet you. Dr. Kirk Adams: The doctor title comes in handy in certain circumstances, but Sucheta Narang: Sure. I didn't want to offend you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, for those of you who don't know me, I'm a blind person. Have been since age five. My retinas detached, went to a school for blind kids. First, second and third grade. Then on through elementary. Middle school. High school. Undergrad. Master's, PhD. I was the only blind student in all of my in all of my schools. After I left the school for the blind. Sucheta Narang: Wow. Dr. Kirk Adams: But yeah, but for the first ten years out of college, I was actually a licensed securities broker. I worked for a small local brokerage firm here in Seattle that mostly underwrote tax free municipal bonds. So I was involved in underwriting new issues of tax free municipal bonds. But I also had a series seven securities license, and I did sell other securities, but I was certainly not a trader. I was a buy and holder, but I have I have been a little bit in that world. And so when I met you, I was just so, so interested in what you're doing and what your journey has been. So would really I'd love to hear from you. Your Sucheta Narang: Sure. Dr. Kirk Adams: Experience with with visual impairment yourself and what motivated you and what your background is. And we want to learn everything about you in the next half hour. Sucheta Narang: Thank you. Thank you for you know, your kind words. So, like, probably like Kirk did describe my name is Sucheta. I am a blind. I'm blind from birth. And I was born in a North Indian traditional North Indian family. I have bilateral cataracts and microphthalmia, which meant the surgery isn't you know, straightforward or guaranteed. So very early on, I understood that waiting for a fix isn't an option. So I built my life around independence. Just like you did. You all probably do. And so today I am here because I started Accessible World last year, and I built an accessible, screen reader compatible trading assistant for blind and low vision users. And it's equally powerful for anyone who is new to investing. Dr. Kirk Adams: So what's your background? How you don't just build something like that? No. Sucheta Narang: No. Dr. Kirk Adams: What is your background that led you to the point where you had the capabilities to develop something like this? Sucheta Narang: So early on, like, you know I did studied in the mainstream schools. But obviously there was no parallel systems waiting for me, so I had to go through textbooks, exams expectations, social dynamics, and especially being in India, you know, you have to fight the stereotypes as well. And then you know, what I, what I was what I was finding was like, I was often the only blind person in a room, and that forces you to be more resourceful. So after completing my education, I did my studies in economics and political science and then moved into international development sector, where I worked with you know, disability organizations, employment public health. Dr. Kirk Adams: This was while you were living in India? Sucheta Narang: Yeah. Sucheta Narang: So I started with international organizations like Handicap International, which is now called as Humanity and Inclusion. And then moved to the UK as well. Where I worked with Leonard Cheshire Disability, which is the largest disability organization in UK. My work has largely been on disability, employment, public health policies, education and inclusion overall. One thing that I realized that was so common is like the people, cultures and countries across have the same pattern, which means, you know, there is universal talent, but the infrastructure is not there. So community communities weren't it wasn't like communities are not prepared. Communities were there, but the infrastructure the systems didn't support. So, you know for us to live like a blind and especially like, you know, with a low vision you're basically in between. So after doing work for good ten years the realization was like, I don't want to advocate for the disability inclusion from outside. I wanted to redesign the infrastructure. So that led me to the corporate where, you know, the where scale lives, basically. So I worked with Wipro embedded in inclusion in all their hire to retire policies. Dr. Kirk Adams: And what was that? What was the name of that company? Sucheta Narang: Wipro technologies. Okay. That's a global IT services company headquartered in India. But they also have their offices all over the place. So I worked for them in, in the US as well. So I designed their hire to retire processes inclusive. And Wipro did received zero project award back in 2017 when I was working with them for innovative employment policies. And then you know, then I worked at Google with Chrome team, where I did realize that one design can affect millions of people. And similarly, you know, when I moved to Adobe, I integrated accessibility into procurement And product life cycles. So in all of these roles, what throughout my journey, one thing that stood out was accessibility if done systems, if it's accessibility is embedded in the system, it there's possibility of independence. But if it isn't, if you retrofit it, then it does not it then it's it's barriers. So yeah, I mean, throughout my life, I've been fixing broken systems, including inclusion in everything I did from disability, employment, public health education policies to product and accessible procurement life cycles. So you were also mentioning about, you know, you were in securities earlier on like so tell me what what you did because I, I really since I built Access Trader, I was very I would say I thought that there would be people who might be interested in trading, but but the way I saw that was like, oh, the systems itself are not accessible. So how some of us were able to, you know get through to it. How people do the investing is something that is really interesting for me. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, it was a long time ago, so it was very analog. So it was sales was it was talking on the phone. So I Oh, okay. You know, I, I had the experience when I graduated from college with a degree in economics, I had a Phi Beta Kappa and a lot and all good, good academic accolades, and I started applying for jobs in finance. And, you know, I would send out my resume and my cover letter. These are these are actually sending letters typed. Dr. Kirk Adams: And 1983 when I graduated from college. But you know, I'd get a phone interview would go, well, they'd invite me in for the in person and I'd come in and then you know, they'd be very confused because I'd walk in with my long white cane and a slate and stylus so I could take some notes in Braille. Sucheta Narang: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: And, you know, they had never, probably ever worked with a blind person, so could not imagine, you know, how could this blind kid do this job he's applying for? So then I started disclosing my disability and my cover letter and just saying I've been blind since I was five. Here's how I've done what I've done. Here's how I'll do the job. And then, you know, I wasn't even getting the phone interviews, but my. Sucheta Narang: Oh, yeah, that's that's that's that's. Sucheta Narang: Actually so similar for me too. Sucheta Narang: Yeah. Sucheta Narang: Like when I started looking for the jobs back in 2000 and you know, people would look at your CV and they would be very impressed. They'll call you for interview. But the minute you tell them that you are blind, they will be like, oh, how are you going to work? At that time we didn't like had a lot of yeah. Like, you know, the screen was being developed and stuff. The infrastructure wasn't as developed. But that didn't mean that, you know, we can't do the job. So. Sucheta Narang: Right. But my. Dr. Kirk Adams: My, my resume landed on the desk of a sales manager for this brokerage firm. And he'd gone to my same college, also a econ major. He called some of the professors we'd had in common and basically asked, could, could Kirk Adams sell tax free bonds on the phone? He said. Sucheta Narang: Sure. Dr. Kirk Adams: So anyway, it was it was calling people talking to them about these upcoming issues of new municipal securities. Sucheta Narang: Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: Securing the orders. And then, you know, we we had sales assistance. So when I got an order, the sales assistant would fill out the the order ticket. And so my, my job was 90% of the time was just talking, talking on the telephone. And I did that for ten years. Straight. Sucheta Narang: Ten years. Yeah. Wow. Dr. Kirk Adams: Great. Commission made good money for a kid in his 20s. Got I was able to get married and buy a house and kids and do the things, but. Sucheta Narang: Wow, that's. Dr. Kirk Adams: It wasn't what I wanted to do the rest of my life. So I pivoted into the nonprofit sector and, you know, eventually you know, had the privilege and honor of leading the lighthouse for the blind and then the American Foundation for the blind and going to get my PhD in leadership and change. And now I have my consulting company. So it's been a it's been a kind of a long, long. Sucheta Narang: Winding, long ride. Dr. Kirk Adams: Long winding road. But I've learned. Always learned a lot. Along each, each phase and and met some wonderful people along each phase. Sucheta Narang: But but you've done so well. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, you know, I know Harrison Hoy is is a blind gentleman who's a broker who's involved in securities. He's interviewed me on my I've been on his podcast, which is called careers for the for the blind. So I know he's interested in securities. I know Gina Harper blind woman who's awesome, who retired as one of the top wealth advisors for Morgan Stanley. Sucheta Narang: Oh, wow. Okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So I know there are blind people out there who I'd be happy to. I'm happy to work with you to to connect, but I'm. I'm intrigued. You know Leonard Cheshire, Google web pro, Adobe, these, these jobs you've had. And then how does that lead you to thinking I need to make trading accessible for people? Are you were you are you know. Sucheta Narang: So it was it wasn't that simple. Like the trading wasn't something that I thought I would get into, but I forced. But I was like forced. So like, I have been a guinea pig in, in a lot of things, but this was something I never expected. So, you know two years ago, I got laid off my role was eliminated, and that changed everything. So people would think, like, okay, you got laid off, so you're supposed to look for a job. But I was actually looking for areas where the registered investment advisors. Because my portfolio wasn't diversified. So I come from a background you know, a traditional Indian background where you know, women are not women really don't have to deal with the money. It's it's just like usually men, most of the times it's like that. So they are the earners and you know, you would think, oh, they they give you money and you spend. So I was financially I was not really I would call I was literate, I would say. Sucheta Narang: Okay. Sucheta Narang: In that way. So you know, I started reaching out to these investment advisors to figure out what am I going to do with the you know, my, my portfolio because everything is in just one stock, and these investment advisors would turn me away because they would say, oh, you're not a millionaire, you know? And so we will not be able to work with you. And then I started you know, checking with fiduciaries who are supposed to, you know, they are the ones who keep your interest. They're legally obligated to you know, protect your interests first. But they were quoting thousands of dollars just to begin with. And come on. I just lost a job, you know? I was just asking for something. That is pretty normal for. I would say so, you know, that that you could teach someone and and, you know, help them understand. And so the problem was I was like, okay, you know what? I'm going to deal with it myself. So I started using I did some courses and I also read books and everything was so over whelming. Visually, the charts, the dashboards, the indicators, the signals, everything is visual. Sucheta Narang: The system actually assumes that everyone who's trying to invest has sight. And that was my frustration that I built. It's been like two decades I spend fixing broken systems across globally. And here I was needing, you know, sighted assistance for my financial independence. That's that's just I just couldn't take that anymore. And I was like, okay financial independence is non-negotiable for me. And so I started experimenting, using AI to translate all those visual charts and dashboards to make sense out of it. And over time, I realized that, okay, AI can actually help me. It can be it can translate your visual data. Visual clues into structured semantic descriptions that my screen reader can interpret independently. And I was able to then start trading. And that realization was phenomenal, that if someone who comes from who was like, who has never dealt with any stocks equities before and now is, you know, she's starting to trade and she is able to like, you know getting some traction. So some something that started as a personal workaround to pay my bills, to pay my mortgage. Sucheta Narang: Yeah. Sucheta Narang: Actually evolved into a trading platform that was that that I built. And then I started sharing with, you know, some close people to see how they are trading or even how do they invest long term investment, short term, you know, short swings or whatever, you know, day trades, options. And I did meet some people. And when I showed them what I was using to you know, I the way I got my AI, I optimized my AI to translate the. Complex market data into structured semantic natural language descriptions, which I was able to interpret, and my screen reader was able, you know, I could use the screen reader to independently place trades. And when I. Sucheta Narang: Shared. Dr. Kirk Adams: That this this is accessible, but it's also useful for people who don't need nonvisual access. So just. Sucheta Narang: Correct. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes, any person who would appreciate learning this way rather than visually people with other print disabilities or people who's chosen way to learn and absorb information would be text based rather than visual. Sucheta Narang: Could be. Absolutely. Sucheta Narang: Actually, it's like you know, it's a very simple interface where you would look, look up for a star stock and then, you know, you can verify accessible charts, you can review the news and view the fundamentals. And then, you know, just ask AI anything that you don't understand. And then place a trade with the simple order form. This use case, this simple app we've tested, you know, we've had a good three week pilot program in December, which not only included blind and low vision people, but it also included sighted people who just because you know, people get overwhelmed with so much data, which is out there visually it's dense dashboards and people find it hard to even understand what it means unless someone is already educated. Someone who knows trading hard trader like from years, you know. Sucheta Narang: Yeah. Sucheta Narang: So with using AI to translate the non. So translate the basically complex market data which is visually into structure structure I would say structure so structured descriptions that a screen reader is able to interpret is something that was not existing when I was struggling to find. And you know, the the traditional brokerage platforms have partial accessibility. We are able to go through everything and, you know have the information, but they are not designed with accessibility in mind. And access trader from day one is designed by and for blind people. Our team is all the accessible and inclusion, accessibility and inclusion professionals, experts. And they, you know, they they are helping me develop this. And the pilot program we did in December really had a very strong feedback and we refined on it. And now we are like almost ready to launch at season in March. And we are also open for like early access. So people who just want to like have financial take charge of of your financial independence, please go on and, you know, try it out. Let's build something that we all need ourselves. Dr. Kirk Adams: And how can people connect people who are who are listening, who are interested in learning more and exploring and following along. How? How do people engage with you? Sucheta Narang: Yeah. So. Sucheta Narang: People can go on to access trader Dot net and sign up for early access. We are currently, you know, the site is accessible. You should be able to see what it is and, you know what information you need or just reach out to me at support at Access Trader Dot and. Dr. Kirk Adams: Access Trader net. Sucheta Narang: Correct. Sucheta Narang: And you know, we will we will be in season. So come see us. We will be presenting on I think it is March 13th at 10:00. And, you know, I would love to see people there who really want to take charge of your own finances without sighted assistance or, you know, compromising any privacy. Dr. Kirk Adams: You know, it's really interesting. You're using AI and you're addressing an area that's really a touch point because of privacy and the fact that blind people such as myself, have have so often needed sighted assistance on matters that can be considered deeply private. One being medical, one being financial. Sucheta Narang: Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: You're really addressing some wonderful things and also empowerment. You know, culturally, you mentioned the culture of in India, women are not empowered to handle their own financial matters, but you, you certainly take taken that on head on and you're, you're dealing with that. So there's there's lots of interesting dynamics here. Sucheta Narang: Yeah. I think, you know. Dr. Kirk Adams: Where do you see things going? Ideally, I'm sure you have a vision for what you'd like to see Access trader become. What are you thinking? Sucheta Narang: Yeah. You're right. Actually, you know using AI can be sometimes skeptical. But if you use AI you know, you could control and optimize it. And the way we have used AI in Access Trader is basically, you know, providing that AI all the feeds which are which you would see on a brokerage platform. And then when you ask AI any question, it doesn't hallucinate. It only gives you the interpretation of what it sees on the screen. So if you have like a chart open and you go back and ask AI what you know, what you want to know about that, that particular stock the AI would refer the information that's been fed to it by the access trader platform, and then it translates you translate the information to you, which you can very well verify by, you know, going through the rest of the information that has never been accessible and now is through access trader meaning one UI that gives you news, you give that gives you fundamentals, that gives you accessible charts and that gives you AI, and that also gives you portfolio and positions to see over time how you are doing. And, you know, you have the order forms to, you know, you you can place the order independently. And right now this is like just stocks and ETFs. But we the way I see this is so accessible. Access trader is a is starting as a trading assistant. But essentially it's actually the accessible layer that fintech never built. So we're building an infrastructure where accessibility is at core. Everything that is going to be available on that platform is going to be accessible from day one, rather than retrofitting it. Well, and, you know. Dr. Kirk Adams: If the if the young Kirk Adams, at age 21, embarking into the world, trying, trying to be a part of the world of financial matters and banking and securities and investments, if I had access treatment I can't imagine how different my world would have been. Sucheta Narang: So yeah. Same here. Dr. Kirk Adams: There are some. There are some young people or parents of young, blind people listening to this right now who are getting very excited and they're jumping up and they're going to access Trader Net, signing up for alerts. And you're just so I'm so happy that we connected. Sucheta Narang: You know, same here. Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm so many wonderful people doing so many transformational things in the world to make it more accessible for us and more inclusive of us. And you're one of them. So I just really, really, really, really appreciate you. Sucheta Narang: Thank you. I just feel like, you know, we we just have to stand up for ourselves. And that's what I have learned. You know the systems would scale if you have accessibility from the beginning. But if you try to retrofit it and bring it later, it won't. It will be a barrier. So you know, I just feel like I would. I am so grateful for the opportunity that because of me, at least, some people, even if, like a small percentage of people are able to benefit, then I would, you know, I would feel like I did something good for the community. And, you know, I'm using it daily. So, you know, I and I will be so excited to share with you at the time of season. We can give you a demo, how it works and everything. So, you know, come see us. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And I said your name wrong again because JAWS says Sucheta not Sucheta. So Sucheta Narang, thank you so much for being my guest. Everyone go to https://AccessTrader.net. Connect with Sucheta. And as for me, Doctor Kirk Adams, you can go to my website, https://DrKirkAdams.com, and sign up for my newsletter. Or find me on LinkedIn. @KirkAdamsPhD. And the time flew by Sucheta and thank you. See, you will be. You will be a triumph at CSUN. Sucheta Narang: And thank you so much I. Dr. Kirk Adams: We'll all we'll all follow the journey by going to https://AccessTrader.net. And thank you so much and thank you. Sucheta Narang: Have a nice day. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. We'll see you all next time. Sucheta Narang: Thanks. Awesome. Dr. Kirk Adams: Doctor Kirk Adams. Bye bye. Sucheta Narang: Bye. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.DrKirkAdams.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Mike Calvo, CEO, Pneuma Solutions https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-02-19-2026/ In this candid episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams sits down with accessibility entrepreneur Mike Calvo, co-founder of Pneuma Solutions, for a wide-ranging conversation that blends personal journey with big-picture systems change. Calvo shares how he navigated vision loss, a nontraditional education and work path, and early tech experimentation to become a longtime "for us, by us" builder in the blindness tech ecosystem, connecting the dots from early assistive tech days to his groundbreaking work at Serotek (including pioneering web-based access tools) and ultimately to launching Pneuma. The heart of the episode centers on the urgent, practical stakes of ADA Title II digital accessibility: what the rule means for public entities, why inaccessible PDFs and online records still block equal access, and how the coming compliance deadlines are forcing agencies to confront massive backlogs. Calvo explains why traditional document remediation is slow and expensive, then describes how Pneuma's tools, including Scribe for Documents and AI-assisted "augmented" workflows, aim to remediate content at scale, fast enough to meet real-world demand. Along the way, Adams and Calvo trade grounded optimism (and healthy skepticism) about AI's accelerating impact for blind users, and they close with a call for advocacy and practical action, pushing listeners to use the law, ask hard questions, and insist that access be treated as a right, not a favor. TRANSCRIPT: Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington, and talking to an incredible guest who I am really enjoying getting to know who is about as far away in the United States as he could get. Mike Calvo. Hi, Mike. Mike Calvo: Hello there from sunny Miami. Don't get mad. Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. There you go. And Mike is co-founder of Pneuma Solutions, which is a company that's really leading the way, producing accessible digital content. We'll we'll get into that in a in a moment. For those of you who don't know me again, I'm Kirk Adams. I am a blind person, have been since age five, and my retina is detached and became blind very suddenly. Went to a school for blind children for first, second and third grade and got my blindness skills down solid like a rock and sink or swim into public school. Then all the way on through was the only blind student in all the schools I attended. After the Oregon State School for the blind, I got a degree in economics, spent ten years in banking and finance. I moved into the nonprofit sector went back to school, got a master's in not for profit leadership. And after lots of twists and turns was fortunate to become the president and CEO of The Lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, where I worked alongside 250 other blind and deaf blind people in a variety of businesses, including aerospace, manufacturing, making parts for all the Boeing aircraft, and then was recruited to join the board of the American Foundation for the blind, Helen Keller's organization. And again, had had the terrific honor of being the president and CEO of AFB. And you know, when we moved to New York City in May of 2016, if I, if I was having a rough day and needed a shot of inspiration, I could walk down the hall and sit at Helen Keller's desk and play with her typewriter, which was an awesome feeling. Dr. Kirk Adams: Very cool. And yeah, for the past three and a half years, I have been the manager managing director of my consulting practice, Innovative Impact LLC, where I say I just look for fun, innovative, high impact projects that will make the world a more inclusive place for people who are blind and people with significant disabilities. And I'm really interested in employment and creating career pathways into meaningful work. I do have a PhD in leadership and change, and my dissertation was called Journeys Through Rough Country. My dissertation, an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. So I interviewed a bunch of blind people working at a lot of companies whose names we all know, and learning about what led to their successes and the challenges they faced. The the, the consistent theme of disappointment and how challenging things were in order to thrive in those workplaces. And, you know, one of the nine success factors that people talked about was accessibility and that they couldn't do their jobs if the materials productivity tools, information systems that they were needing to, to use for their jobs were not accessible, they could not be successful. And I know, Mike, you have devoted your life and have a burning passion for making the world a more accessible place. You've been at it for a long time, and I applaud you for everything you've done and are doing and will do. But you know, we'd love to hear your story, your your journey. What what led you to the place you are now? And I'm going to hand you the microphone. Mike Calvo: Doctor Adams, I have never heard that story. About your upbringing. It is extremely interesting to me at how similar our paths are. I also have detached retinas. Mine detached. Well, mine were detached. I was born with them detached, and then they kept getting more and more detached. And I kept losing my sight. Lost it by the time I was 18. Different than you, though. I went to Michigan school for the blind. I'm. I'm a son of Cuban immigrants, and I was raised in Miami, Florida. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and of which it's funny because I don't sound Cuban. I don't sound like I'm from Georgia, but, hey but my folks took me up to Michigan School for the blind, where I got my training there. And I was mainstreamed in the third grade. Okay. And it was so different than your than your than your journey. It really was mine was Miami Street's craziness. Parents, you know, immigrant parents trying to trying to make a living, trying to, you know, deal with the system. That was I mean, what? 504 was in 1973, I think it was. And I was born in 67. So you can imagine my my parents, my Cuban parents you know, blue collar folks third, you know, fourth grade education kind of between them and raised in the revolution, you know, in the Cuban Revolution and got here and had a blind kid and didn't really understand how to advocate and it was just a very interesting upbringing, but I found it intriguing at how we started, very similar in that, you know, our visual impairment, our education. Yeah. And, and went through so many different weird paths. That is that is super cool. And it just goes to show I, I trained blind people for, for a couple of years. And back in 1989, I found myself working at a bank and, and you know, and got trained on how to use their systems because I'd been doing music for years and years. And Dr. Kirk Adams: Don't skip over that. Mike Calvo: No. Well, I was raised, I was raised in Miami, and at 11, I started doing radio public access radio. My voice hadn't changed yet, and the public access radio station thought it would be cool to have this blind kid on there, and I did that. I I started working at a skating center when I was 13 and and deejaying there, and all of a sudden realized that they liked watching the little blind kid deejay. So I started getting invited to adult clubs because of the performers act and started in music there and just kind of got very, very involved in the Miami nightlife in the 80s. Craziness. That Miami had to offer of pharmaceuticals, entertainment. Dr. Kirk Adams: Miami Vice. Mike Calvo: Oh. You know, I tell people Miami Vice was a team version of Miami. Okay, back in the day, it really was. And we I mean, Miami, I, I just recently moved back to Miami in in 2001, I moved away from Miami to raise my kids. Didn't want them to be raised in this environment here. And then my wife my wife and I just moved here because it was better for her business back to Miami. And, you know, it's interesting. Miami is a lot more involved in the United States than it used to be. When I grew up, we didn't here. Washington was way over there, you know? And we just we're here, dude, you know, type of thing. And it wasn't so it wasn't easy. Now you're hearing me in Miami. So it was. It was, you know, that was that was just kind of how I was raised. I dealt with just trying to make it. Trying to get out there. Didn't understand bureaucracy. Came from a world where I learned really early that work going and and doing the corporate climb, kissing the corporate butt or ring, whatever you want to look at it. Just dealing with I was always rebelled against authority. Authority was my my, you know, my problem. Okay. Because I learned at a very young age whenever I was going to put myself into the hands of someone in authority over me, they were going to shoot way for the low, and I was going to shoot way for the high. And that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Expectations. Mike Calvo: Oh, dude, you don't know it was. Well, yeah. You do. Okay. Yeah. Yeah you do. And that's the that's the thing is so, you know, just realize really early that if I could either, you know, struggle and make very little at a menial job you know, with because I dropped out of high school, I ended up dropping out of high school because of a lack of. In my 12th grade year, my teacher forgot. My itinerant teacher forgot to order my books. Oh in my 11th grade year for my 12th grade year. So 12th grade year came along. And here you're teaching this kid who was a DJ at clubs and this and that to go get readers. What are those? You know and my parents didn't know how to advocate for me, and, you know, it was just crazy. It was it was a, you know, too long to explain here, but it was interesting. And then later, as I, I worked into, you know, I've got more involved in music, opened up a recording studio started putting out Miami records and in the 80s and, and, you know, just really liked it, but had a kid in 89. Had to get a real job. Started working in a bank and learned how to use my computer. Trained my first blind person at the bank. And did my first while at the bank, I also did my first corporate presentation of just technology and at and what we could do for an organization and work for the Division of Blind Services. I actually stood in for Greg Luther, who was probably one of the greatest mentors I've ever had. One of the only people that. Dr. Kirk Adams: What what were you using? I mean I just I was out I was at CSUN for the they were celebrating the 30th anniversary of jaws. Oh, so so what were you using? Mike Calvo: I started I started using telesensory systems. Virt plus. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Mike Calvo: With that. Pros 4000 baud. Man, that was a little crazy. And then and then. Dr. Kirk Adams: I had the. I had a versa Braille, so. Mike Calvo: No, I'm a little bit after the verse of Braille. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. That was my that was my first the. Mike Calvo: I saw the verse of Braille. I saw the verse Braille at a camp for the blind. I used to go to the Florida Lions camp. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Mike Calvo: And and I saw a verse Braille. It was so cool that you put a cassette in it and. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, exactly. It was on cassette, but Braille display. Mike Calvo: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it was it was, it was, it was an amazing product. I, I did, I did get into the opticom though when that, when that came out and it was, it was very helpful to me in junior high school and stuff. But again, it, it was, it was not to be. I went to I went to the bank and worked there and, and I, I learned there that unless we really advocated strongly for ourselves and really just shined, we were going to just, you know, as as my supervisor said at the time, We don't know what to do with you people. They basically said you know, we all all that you were, you know, the person that set it up your job, set it up and said, here's the guy who knows how to do that, and that's it. We don't know what you're capable of, what you're not capable of. So you can do what you can. And, and and I said, so wait a minute. So if I do really good, if I'm a good dog, what do I get? Well, 5% raise from the 13 five that I was making back in 1985, 89. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Mike Calvo: And and I said, so wait a minute. So did some quick math. I've always been good at math. So after 20 years, you know, basically I'll be making about 50,000, at which point I'll get a roadmap, a sandwich and maybe a watch. Will it be Braille? No. You know, so Greg said, well, you know, if you don't, he said, you know, you you need to learn that computer behind that computer, you're an equal. Dr. Kirk Adams: And Greg. Mike Calvo: Greg Luther is my my mentor from the state of Florida, from the Division of Blind Okay. All right. And he. He believed in me. He's like, I know you're going to take to it like a duck to water. Greg was from Iowa. So. So and And he was right. Got into the computers, raised my productivity at that point we had a patronizing blind productivity rate and a normal. And I'm not even kidding when it was written that way. Normal employee productivity rate. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wow. Mike Calvo: This is pre Ada man. And so so yeah. So it was it was it was interesting. They so I raised my productivity to a crazy number by putting in an auto dialer and things like that that would like through scripts on the screen would go and pull the phone number and send it to a modem, and it would dial the phone number and then my, my shirt would read all my my my, the information on the credit card, whatever that I was doing. Collections. I would do collections in the morning and customer service in the afternoon. It was insane. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wow. Mike Calvo: But it was great. I mean, I, you know, it sharpened me up and and, you know, I, I can I look back and, and I understand the adversity that all of us go through. But you know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Yep. And I've just learned to be resilient. I truly, to this day, as running this company, do not know where my next paycheck is coming from and do not know what I would do if this company didn't work, because who's going to hire a, you know, 58 year old, very highly opinionated blind guy who's never worked for anybody dropped out of high school in the 80s. You know, I mean, it's it's just crazy. So aside from the 85% unemployment rate. So so if you're out there use our services, please. No, but not not not not just for for for niceness, but because we actually provide great services. I think I got involved in that. I got, I got, you know, I moved forward in two I, you know, one of the things that I don't talk a lot about but I was very involved in the drug scene here in Miami distribution of such items at that small time. But it was part of my story and got out of that in about 1995. You know, got involved a lot more in spiritual things, church and whatnot, and really turned my life around, changed things. And that was truly a line for me to say, you know, I got to do something with my life. I was an angry blind guy, really pissed off, really just had enough, didn't believe that this world was for me. I was constantly being told, you know, to not strive to high, you know, don't rock the boat. Quote be normal, you know, whatever that means. And in 95, Just really just found it. Found myself in a place where I needed change. And in 2001, I kind of floated around for five years trying to figure myself out, trying to figure out where I was going to go. And in 2001 started Sterile Tech, which is a company that did a lot of firsts. Dr. Kirk Adams: Now, I didn't know you or who you were, but I certainly knew Ceretec. So why don't why don't we talk about that for a few minutes? Mike Calvo: So, ceretec, you know I used to be very angry. And I'm righteously angry, I guess, these days, but for whatever that means. But but I was very angry, and I used to just, you know, tap my head and be like, this is the brain that just some really disturbing people in the world have had, and I'm going to make a better world, and you guys are going to benefit from it, you know, blah, blah, blah, and and righteous crusader. Yeah, I guess, I mean, you know. And so very kind of you just a I looked at myself as just a very pissed off blind person and, you know, and, and so I, I got this idea because the internet, I wanted my piece of that internet pie, man. You know, I wasn't hustling on the streets of Miami anymore or whatever. I found that that the internet was the best hustle ever. But I couldn't get there. I couldn't get on there. There wasn't anything accessible, you know? And there was AOL at the time. So I set out to make an AOL type box and came up with a box called the Freedom Box. And you could talk to it and all that kind of stuff. And that that launched me really into 17 years at tech, providing the world's first web based screen reader. That was free. We had a battle with Freedom Scientific, a lawsuit. And and it was a truce. Okay. They didn't like that we called our products freedom. But what was really what they were really mad about was the fact that we were coming out with System Access to Go, which was the world's first web based free screen reader before. Dr. Kirk Adams: Free. Mike Calvo: Pre Nvda. And I was getting I was getting emails from people just on cruise ships, you know, saying, I'm on there, I'm on a computer that doesn't even have a screen reader. Like, wow. Yeah. So it was, it was it was an amazing time. Matt Campbell I have the honor of working with Matt Campbell my business partner today, my former CTO over at at Ceretec. And and he he's just an amazing blind guy. We are a for us by US company. We believe in the in the refrain. Of course, nothing about us without us, you know. And we've we. Dr. Kirk Adams: You know, I've shortened that. Okay. Just to let you know it's nothing without us. Mike Calvo: So nothing about us? Dr. Kirk Adams: No. Just nothing without us. Mike Calvo: Oh, nothing without us. You know, that makes sense. Yeah. I I'll tell you. I mean, to me, I, I think that we we've got a great, a great community. The internet has been one of the most amazing things that has happened to our community. Technology has changed so much, and I, I find that we're currently at a crossroads because somewhere along the line, D-I got mixed up with blindness and because of things of an administration that is just angry and whatever, you know, and I'm not going to get political, but, you know, just the we have lost his we've lost 20, 30 years as a community, you know, years, you know, hundreds of hours, thousands of writings of of pages of advocacy. You know one of the interesting things is title two compliance is is where all local, state and federal organizations have been have been compelled or you know. Dr. Kirk Adams: Talk to us like for five year olds. Now, as far as the title two of what. Mike Calvo: Yeah. So title two is a part. It's a, it's a Department of Justice put out a ruling a couple of years back that said that all local, state and federal organizations need to be compliant with this title two mandate. And what it means is that all of their websites, all of their software, in other words, mobile apps or what have you, and all of their documentation, which is where I live, have to be accessible. Dr. Kirk Adams: And that's under the umbrella of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Mike Calvo: Correct. And they and they have to meet wcaG standards, which is the, you know, the standards that we all live by and, and web accessibility guidelines. And the biggest challenge with doing that for an organization is, first of all, most a lot of organizations have thousands and thousands and thousands of pages that need to be remediated and up to we and a few others started doing what we call augmented content remediation, which means computer assisted, fancy way of saying computer assisted remediation. It has to be done by humans and it costs it takes a human 30 minutes just to do a standard page of content and to the tune of $15 a page, $16 a page, as you can imagine, it's going to be very difficult for an organization that has thousands and thousands of pages to remediate and bring themselves up to compliance. But hey, the government said you got to do it. So we've been building a remediation platform that aligns. Dr. Kirk Adams: And we is now. Mike Calvo: Numa solutions have been. Dr. Kirk Adams: Spell that, spell that for those who want to search engine it. Mike Calvo: That's the joke. We put a P at the beginning. It's p n e u m a solutions. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. New solutions. Mike Calvo: Yeah. Serotec serotec. Everybody. What happened to Serotec? We had a great run at Serotec, but my business partner in 2017, my business partner, Michael Fox got dementia, and he, we lost him last year actually. But Michael stepped down, and it was just Michael was our chief operating officer. And it was it was just legally better for us to walk away from tech. We didn't know anybody, any money or anything, but it was just it was it was just too, too much of a of a mess to do it another way. And gotcha. Technology had moved on. Technology had moved on. There's just a whole lot of reasons. And then Matt went to go work at Microsoft on narrator for a few years, and we both got the itch again. I was like, man, let's do something. And and, you know, and we did Numa and we started back in 2020 with scribe for documents is the name of the platform we during Covid, we gave the platform away to home educators so that parents could remediate their own kids documents. And what remediate basically means is to make these daily. They upload them to our service. Our service turns around and says, okay, what do you want to do with this? You want to make it, you know, braille, large print, MP3, daisy, whatever from whatever you upload, including untagged PDFs. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Mike Calvo: And, and okay. And during, during Covid, we basically gave that away and, and product that really didn't get a lot of recognition, but we, we kind of built it around our technology back then, and it was accessible for, for accessible meetings. And it was, it was, it was, it was cool and and it worked well, but just didn't get picked up because everybody went back to work, so. But Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Gotcha. Mike Calvo: Yeah. Fast forward to title two. And then and then our other kind of claim to fame is a product that we brought over from Serotec called Remote Incident Manager. Rim. And Rim is probably one of the most used remote training and support products for the blind community. It's been around since 2007 from serotec. And Matt and I brought it back in 2021 trying to make some money because, you know scribe wasn't quite ready for prime time yet. It wasn't doing what it's doing today. Ai just changed the world for everybody. And it made us it just it AI doesn't do what we do. But boy, did it really speed our time to market. It speeded up our time. And that's a story in itself. My son David is our our our AI guru in house. And David is just he's a graduate of Johns Hopkins in computer science. And he's just an amazing young man and has developed this platform has worked with Matt to redevelop this platform from what Matt started. And we now have a platform that makes accessible documents. And in instead of Hours or days or years or months. We can do. We just did. Lately we've done December. We did 180,000 page remediation for a very large content provider which I'm prohibited by contract to talk about, but but we did it in two days. Dr. Kirk Adams: So. So is it based? Is it based on the scribe for documents product that you talked about that you're giving away to educators during the pandemic? Same. Mike Calvo: Yes. Yes it is. Dr. Kirk Adams: Basic. Okay. Yeah. Mike Calvo: It is. It is a platform scale. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Instead of a parent or a teacher uploading a document to put it into an accessible format for a student, you're dealing with thousands and thousands of pages and making them accessible. Mike Calvo: Yeah. With our platform, you can either, you know, we can. We can do it for you or or you can upload a zip file to our platform of just straight, inaccessible PDFs. We will process those PDFs. We'll tell you how many pages there are, how much it's going to cost you, and we take your money. Of course you upload them and a few hours later, depending on how many documents and I'm talking about, you know, we've gotten, you know, three, four, 5000 documents at a time. And people are amazed. Oh, there's 50,000 pages there. And you got them back to me in an afternoon. Yeah, yeah, that's what we do. So we we've been really excited, but the challenge has been nobody takes I hate to say it like that, but it's just true. I don't think anybody takes this administration seriously when it comes to accessibility. They don't think. I think everybody, as a friend of mine said recently, everybody's been hoping for an 11th hour reprieve from the Department of Justice, and they didn't do it. So now. Dr. Kirk Adams: So that deadline, that deadline is around the corner, brother. Mike Calvo: And and not even around the corner is literally up the street. I mean, it is like it is we as we record this, we are on February, in February and today, February 20th, 19th, 19. Dr. Kirk Adams: Something like. Mike Calvo: That. Yeah. And, and the deadline for and I don't understand this. So for municipalities, for agencies that serve more than 50,000 people, they have to be compliant with this. Title two. This title two deadline by April of 2026. If you serve less than 50,000, it's April of 2027. I don't get it. Unless it has to do with budgeting or something like that. Why? You would put it that way, I would figure it would be the other way around. But but anyway. But so, you know, we have it's been very challenging because we started last year to really work into the product in earnest and hoped that that it would, that it would just take off, that everybody would be, you know, really interested in doing this title two compliance. And after January of last year when we got back, bright eyed and bushy tailed from the holidays to do title two, we looked at Inauguration Day and said, oh my goodness. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah. So so let me ask, let me ask an advocacy question. So some new neighbors moved in next to us here in Seattle, and we bought this house in 1989. And there's, there's a fence. And we've always thought, man, that fence is really close to our house. I'm wondering if it is on the proper property line. So as the house is our dear neighbors, we love to gotten elderly and passed away, and the house was left to a child and was up for sale. So we said this would be the time for us to figure out where our property line is. So I did my research as a King County Assessor's office. You could get a copy of your plat. So I went through the process and I got a completely inaccessible something, electronic something. So according to title two, that document should be accessible now. So if someone's listening, who's blind or visually impaired, disabled, dyslexic needs an accessible document and they are dealing with a local municipality and they cannot get an accessible document. What what do you think? What would you advise they do? Mike Calvo: I think that they need to reach out to their local local, you know, consumer and nf-b ACB self-advocacy, of course. I mean, you know they if if, I mean, let me tell you. Because even if, even if organizations kind of, you know, say, well, you know, don't take the deadline too seriously, there are others, there are other rules that go into place in other parts of the world. So organizations are paying attention. They are doing stuff. It's just that we're not getting a lot of United States stuff right now, but we're seeing more and more people come to us as the dates get closer. But really, self-advocacy is the way to go. If you if you. Dr. Kirk Adams: And and can Mike can Mike Calvo and numerous solutions provide some language and some references to the regulations and laws that they could use. Mike Calvo: Absolutely. We can we have a website that we have it's called title 2.info. So it's title, the number 2.info, and it's a community of of people that are talking about title two. We have a monthly newsletter that goes out. Right now we are running title two. Announcements. Just just kind of, you know, little prompts saying, hey, title two is coming. If you need advocacy, go to your local governments. This is the time to really stand up and let yourself be heard, you know, and we're not we're not being, you know, we're not being, you know real, real adversarial about it. It's just like, hey, this is the law. And if you, you know, we've got an opportunity, you got a soapbox to stand on. So go get out there and do it, you know, and and we we can back you up in any way we can in, in, in any way that's as possible. It's why I'm doing this, you know, and things like it, you know, so. And and our prices, you know, just so we can understand each other. Right. We that like I said earlier remediating a normal page, which means just a regular, like a novel costs $17, 15 to $17 for half an hour of work per page. Wow. Okay, we brought it down to $1.75 a page and we like I said, we did 180,000 pages in two days, you know. Mike Calvo: And the the dollar 75 actually doesn't just get you remediated once because it's in the digital domain. We remediate the whole library for you, and then we come back every six months as our technology progresses. Because as Sam Altman once said the guy from ChatGPT AI is the worst it's going to be today. Okay. You know, so. And and that is so true. I mean, this is not just about AI. We're not just going to ChatGPT and saying, remediate this document. There's a lot going on behind the scenes. And we are, you know we are you know, training our own models and, and things of that nature that are coming down the pike so people can do these things locally and not have to depend on the big things, on the big, on the big LMS large language models. But basically here we can remediate hundreds of thousands of documents from PDF to PDF, all aligned with wcaG 2.11 standards. And when the every six months we're going to come back and we're going to say, hey, can we're do you want us to remediate the entire library? We'll do it at our expense until we reach parity with human remediation, we will not stop. And I'm fairly confident that we are very, very, very close within the next 12 months. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great. Let me just ask you about your vision with with AI. So I went to CSUN last March and AI was everything was everywhere talking about AI and, and, you know, kind of the big buzz among blind people was, you know, image description and getting visual information from AI. What what is this picture? What does that person look like? What's the view from this window? And the kind of the people who seem to have the highest level of expertise will say, well, you know, next year it's all going to be about agentic AI. You know, having AI do things for you and talking to it and telling it, you know, to help you with tasks and those types of things. And then I went to the Consumer Electronics Show CES in January in Vegas. And. You know, people stuck AI on everything. They bolted it on. I think lots of things that we would have called automation before people. Were calling it AI. And then, you know, there's people are starting to use AI resources to perform functions that screens screen reading software performing. I just connected with a startup in the Bay area called lumen, where you can process your email just with voice using AI. And then, you know, there's people who point out rightly, you know, the large language models, the you know, they're built on data. The data comes from people using technology and of course, people with disabilities. People who are blind use technology to a lesser extent than the general population. So our data is underrepresented. So there's these biases built in. So, you know, double edged sword pros and cons. Yin and yang that that stuff I. Speaker6: Want to I want to push back on that a little bit. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. That's what I'm asking you I want you you're much more versed and immersed in it than I. So I just kind of spewed out some, you know, some reflections and observations and things I've, I've heard and seen. But I'd love your take on it. And blindness and how they relate and what we should be thinking about. Mike Calvo: So so first let's I saw a post one time and of course it was probably written by AI. Speaker6: But. Mike Calvo: It said it was on Facebook and a blind person. There's a great AI for the blind list on Facebook. If you haven't gotten on there, it's a community of like thousands of blind people. A guy named Sean Keane started it. Amazing group of people, newbies, you know, old timers, just everybody. And and everybody's talking AI. I think AI is great for blind folks. I understand where we have been underrepresented. Underrepresented in the past. And and I agree. I mean, I remember the days when I would tell AI I'm blind and it would tell me I'm sorry. It's like, it's not your fault. Then Speaker6: You know, but that's. Mike Calvo: But that's where that's where what? Jonathan Mosen and and others at the Sina at Sina, at the NFB and ACB are doing to kind of work with and and be my eyes people with with with open AI. Speaker6: Yeah. Mike Calvo: And IRA is working with with others as well, doing developing their models. So they are getting the true skinny on how to talk to us, how to deal with us. And this post just said, I hear you. I saw all your posts. I've seen. So our advocacy, you know, on a normal day, we might we might hope to run into a person who knows about blind people, and maybe a person who's heard about blind people got trouble with this or that, but AI has it all. So all of our advocacy, all of the standards, everything we've ever done, it was taken into account. Rightly or wrongly. I'm not here to judge that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. You know. Mike Calvo: I live I live in Miami, Florida. Miami, Florida at one point used to belong to the Seminoles. You know, am I going to stop living here? Because there was a war and one prevailed over the other. And, you know, I don't like the way they were treated or whatever. No, that's not my that wasn't my war, you know. And just the same way, am I going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, I'm not going to use AI because it perhaps was trained on this information or that information? The only thing people are ticked off about is that AI can do it faster than you and me, because if I want to write a song, if I want to write a pop song today, I'm going to study Taylor Swift. I'm going to study, you know, Harry styles, I'm going to study Bruno Mars, I'm going to listen to them, and then I'm going to go into the studio, and I'm going to try and do the best I can to roll them up, Mikey style, you know what I'm saying? And do it my way. That's all AI is doing. Ai isn't taking a couple of notes from Bruno, and a couple of notes from Taylor, and a couple of and making a, you know No, it's actually using algorithms to reproduce. And in our community, when it comes to we can literally, as Burger King used to say, have it our way. If I, you know, we, we, we have a system called the Accessible Archive that sits on a large content managed system like a large CMS. Mike Calvo: And as content is coming through. So, for example, if you have a court docket, a court case that you're looking at, right, it will. And court cases have a particular have a particular challenge because they're all did different digital assets that are there. Everything's digital. But you could have a it could be a picture of a tax return. It could be of a picture of a light bill. It could be a picture of a bank statement. It could be whatever. So what this content management tool that we've developed does is it sits on the server and as the blind person is navigating the website, it is taking that digital content, that graphical content and remediating it, not only just like with great alt text, you know, the bird and a tree with a, with a with red feathers, you know. No no no no no no no no no. This is like this is your it takes for example, if the if the exhibit is a tax document and it knows it's looking at a tax document. Therefore it formally formats that as a tax document complete with all the blind kind of markup, you know, with all the, all the, the markup that we need as blind folks to be able to navigate this stuff with our screen reader and that when I saw when David showed me that the first time, I just about cried, man, I was like, what is that? I saw him present it to this group that shall remain nameless. And all they said when he. He did this presentation. Dr. Kirk Adams: Showing. Dr. Kirk Adams: David is. Speaker6: Who. Mike Calvo: David. David is my. Speaker6: Son. David. Mike Calvo: David. David is my. Speaker6: Son. Okay. Mike Calvo: Produces our AI. Dr. Kirk Adams: The AI guy. Speaker6: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Speaker6: Gotcha. Mike Calvo: So he he he did this presentation. It was a point, a proof of concept for an organization. And at the end of the concept, the the proof of concept, you could have heard a pin drop. He's like, do are there any other questions? And everybody was like, no. Where do we get this? You know, because the blind people on the call were just amazed at, you know, at what can be done with what the AI community has done with what we as blind people bringing our knowledge to the table. You know, I am such so hopeful and yes, I, I understand the pitfalls. But, you know, again, I can't do anything about those pitfalls. Is AI going to take over the world? I don't know, I'm already seeing home prices go through the roof. I saw I saw a report the other day where people are selling acres of property for millions of dollars to AI companies that want to build data centers there, you know. And what's that going to do to our already crazy housing market? You know, so, you know, our, you know, the cost of, you know, of Ram, you know, and the cost of, of, of those types of things is going up. There's a Seagate just announced this morning that it is sold out until 2027. Every hard drive, you know. So what is it? So AI is disrupting our world and. Dr. Kirk Adams: But but as you said earlier, your quote, Sam Altman quote, the AI is the the worst. It's going to be right now, right? Speaker6: That's right. Mike Calvo: And that's where we're so we're hoping you know, we're we're hoping. I mean I as a blind person, I'm very hopeful for AI. I think this is this is incredible. I wish I wish I'd had AI 20 years ago. I mean, the difference. I think any blind person the story, you know, that we would have told the future for blind people is so much brighter than it was for us because of this technological breakthrough. I think right when I. Dr. Kirk Adams: Went to college, I had textbooks on a four track cassette recorded by volunteers at recording for the Blind and Dyslexic, which is Learning Ally Now, and I took notes in my econ classes with the slate and stylus, and at night I would copy them with a Perkins Brailler. So I would I, I welcome all time and labor saving technologies. Mike Calvo: I gotta ask you because. Dr. Kirk Adams: Make life easier for us. Mike Calvo: Yeah, I gotta, I gotta ask you. This happened to me, and I used to. I used to use an IBM Selectric. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, I had that with the erase ribbon. Yeah, that was the leading edge technology. Mike Calvo: Yeah, well, let me tell you, with the little ball and everything, how many times it happened to me? Twice. Did you type a full paper? And it was blank? Dr. Kirk Adams: More than I want to admit. More than I want to admit. Mike Calvo: It was so demoralizing. People cannot imagine how you go. And you. You're already flying blind. Pun totally intended. Writing this document where you don't know where the hell it is. And if you're if you're one space off or whatever. But then then you don't. Then for somebody you handed somebody like, oh, it's blank. And you're thinking, oh, stop kidding around, man. Stop. Stop goofing me. No, no, it's really blank, bro. It's like what? Oh my goodness. Yeah. I mean, it has been just so demoralizing. So, but I, I'm, I'm very excited about the future. I'm glad to be a knowledgeable old guy. Interestingly enough, my business partner, who is truly one of the the my co-founder, Matt Campbell, is one of the best, one of the best developers of blindness technology I've ever met. Him and Glenn Gordon and others like them just deserve. And, you know, Jim Fruchterman and others. Well, Jim's not blind, but but but, you know, they just deserve all kinds of accolades. And Matt was kind of resistant to AI, and he's even, like, looking at what we're doing and, and and said, yeah, you know, this is this is making a difference. This is changing. So, you know advocate, advocate and, and and if there is title two work to be done in your local community, in your state or whatever, they can afford this. They've got budgets for this. And those budgets are based around 17, 16, $17 a page. And we're charging 10% of that. You know what I'm saying? So it's a it's a it's scalable. And at that, at those prices that that kind of savings, you know, before understandably organizations would have to triage. Well, we can we can do this, but we can't do that. We can. And that's one of the things, one of the horrible things that happened in California. Back 20, 20 or so, they had to take 2.7 million documents offline for everybody, not just because of us. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Mike Calvo: Wow. You know, not, you know, because they couldn't comply. Because the state of California gave them two years to become to remediate 2.7 million documents. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Mike Calvo: So. Dr. Kirk Adams: If people if people want to get. So if people want to get in touch, Mike, and and learn more about Numa solutions and what you can do and to get your advice on how to work with their local municipality, the language to use. How how can people get in touch. Mike Calvo: So they can reach out to me? I'm at Mike.Calvo. That's C A L V as in Victor O at Pneuma Solutions. I will spell that for you again. P N E U M A Solutions.com. All things Title II Information is available at Title2. Title, the number 2.info. And do help us spread the word. We really we really need you to to to get out there and advocate and and definitely check out scribe for documents. That's the consumer version. So the other side that you would have been able what you would have been able to do Doctor Adams is you would have been able to if you would have had our scribe service. Right. You'd have been able to upload that inaccessible document. I invite you to send it. Invite you to send it to me if you'd like. And I'll redo it for you just for fun. Dr. Kirk Adams: You know I will do. Mike Calvo: Yeah, but but it it and you can bring your own accessibility. I personally believe very much that as blind people, if it is financially viable, and I know that it's not sometimes I really do, you know. But if it is, bring your own accessibility people, you know, bring your accessibility. It's just going to. Yes. Is it is it right? Maybe not. Maybe so I don't know. I don't care. I just want access to this stuff and bye bye. Whatever is the path of least resistance. And sometimes the path of least resistance is saying, you know what? I'm going to pay for this. I'm going to have it available to me, and that's it. I mean, my meta glasses, I. They're worth their weight in gold. You know, my meta, my meta AI glasses. My. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that I think that should be the tagline for this podcast. Mike, I just want access to this stuff. So I think we'll I think we'll go with that. The time has flown by. It's been great visiting with you. I'm looking forward to next time. Title two. Title two A lot of people went to a lot of work to get those regulations on the books. So leverage that, my friends. And you are entitled to have those government documents accessible to you, and numerous solutions can help. And if you want to get in touch with me, go to my website academy.com. My email address is there. Subscribe to the newsletter or I'm on LinkedIn every day. Kirk Adams, PhD on LinkedIn. So again, a great visit with you, Mike. Thanks everyone for listening to podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams and we will catch you next time. Mike Calvo: Thank you sir. Take care. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at www.DrKirkAdams.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Mark Miller, Founder, CEO, Inclusion Impact Accessiblity https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-02-12-2026/ In this mission-driven episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Mark Miller, Founder and CEO of Inclusion Impact Accessibility, for a wide-ranging conversation on what it takes to move accessibility from a one-time "fix" to a durable organizational capability. Mark shares his 13-year path into digital accessibility, from a technology career to learning the craft under early industry pioneers, before helping build the field through work on accessibility maturity models and large-scale consulting, then returning to a "boutique" approach with his own firm so he can meet clients where they are and build pragmatic, customized roadmaps. Together, they unpack two core ideas leaders can act on immediately: accessibility maturity models (the step-by-step way organizations embed accessibility into policy, process, and the software development lifecycle so accessibility doesn't "fade" as websites and apps change) and "shift left" (building accessibility into requirements, design, and development, where it's cheaper and less risky, rather than scrambling after problems hit production). They also explore where AI could genuinely help (e.g., making content discovery easier for blind users and improving developer workflows) and where it can mislead, especially if organizations overtrust automation and skip the essential human testing that catches real-world barriers. TRANSCRIPT: Adverisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Adverisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: And welcome everybody to another episode of podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in sunny Seattle, Washington. Today my guest is Mark Miller, founder and CEO of Inclusion Impact accessibility. Hello, Mark. Mark Miller: Hello, Kirk. Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice to have you here. Mark and I met in person at the CSUN conference last March and had several really productive conversations, and I'm starting to get to know one another. And we have have a lot of similar philosophies and passions around inclusion and impact and accessibility. So for those of you who don't know me, I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind. Prior to that, I was honored to have those same roles at the Lighthouse for the blind, Inc. here in Seattle. I am a blind person. My retina is detached. When I was in kindergarten. Became totally blind overnight. To a school for blind kids. First, second and third grade and got my blindness skills down. Rock solid braille cane travel. Today it'd be keyboarding, but then it was typing. So I learned how to type on a typewriter so I could go into public school and did that sink or swim into public school? Starting in fourth grade, I had a ten year career in banking and finance and then into the nonprofit sector. I do have a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University. And my my professional academic careers have been devoted to creating opportunities for people who are blind and have other significant disabilities to thrive. And I was pleased to meet Mark and intersect with Mark, and had asked him to come on the podcast and talk about his his journey, how he how he got involved in accessibility and disability inclusion, his journey, up to this point and the founding of his company, Inclusion Impact Accessibility, where he's at now and his vision for the future. So, Mark, I'll hand the talking stick to you. I as as host of the podcast, I will reserve the right to pop in with questions as they. Mark Miller: Oh, please do. Dr. Kirk Adams: Occur to me. So let's have a let's have a conversation. And glad to have you here. Mark Miller: Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. I really appreciate you inviting me onto the podcast, and I appreciate your, your listeners who are joining us today and thank them for for hanging out with us to have this conversation. I you know, I've been in accessibility for about 13 years now. And prior to that, I was working in technology. And I had a friend who got a job in this niche space called accessibility. And when I learned what that was about, I thought, you know, that's what I need to do because I really I love technology, but putting another Cisco switch or firewall into an organization isn't really that satisfying. And then further, I had had a friend who was deaf. I learned American Sign Language through her, just socially put some effort into it. But I mainly learned it socially through through her and through her friends. And I myself have Add and dyslexia. So I understood a lot of the challenges that people face just based on the challenges that I had growing up in the 80s and going through the academic system in the, in the 80s. And that's something we can get into. But in a in a small way, it it helped me relate. Late, so I spent about three years after learning about this, this great space of digital accessibility through a friend of mine who who started working in the space. I spent about three years trying to get into it. And finally one day he called me up and he said, hey, I interviewed with this company and I've decided not to take the position because things changed where I am, and I want to stay there. Mark Miller: But I think you'd be perfect for it. And he had a similar conversation with the owner of that company. And ultimately brought the two of us together. That company was interactive accessibility. And that person was Kathy Walden, who? If there's anybody that's been around accessibility for a while, I'm sure that they'll remember that name. But she was just one of the innovators and one of the leaders in accessibility. And I always say there was only a handful. If you go back ten, 20 years, Kirk, you probably remember there was only a handful of people, right? Like it was a new industry. It came out of academia. Somewhere around the late 90s. And people were doing it just because they thought it should be done. And this notion of a business really didn't start to percolate until early 2000. You know. Yeah. So when I walked into it with Kathy, it was about, you know, it was a little way. It was a little, little ways into what you know, where businesses had been truly established at that time. And I, you know, I knew what I was getting into, but I had no idea what I was getting into. But I knew within my first few days of working at Interactive Accessibility that this was the place that I was going to be, and it was going to be my final place in my career. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's a nice feeling, is it not? Mark Miller: It was. It's it's an incredible feeling and as stressful as the workday can be. As much as you can forget, because we're always in the middle of our workday, right? Trying to trying to do work stuff. So sometimes the mission, it gets kind of, you know, fades off into the background a little bit. Yeah. But it's just really nice to go to bed at night knowing that you're doing something that's not just not just helpful to your family and finances and all that, but that it's helpful to a much broader audience, you know? Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Mark Miller: So I learned a lot from Kathy. She was she was an incredible accessibility professional and really, really knew a lot. And we worked together. At one point, there were three of us in interactive accessibility. Five years later, I don't know the exact numbers, but say it was around 15 people and we sold the company to Vespero and emerged with the Paciello group. So if we're talking about legends. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Mark Miller: Mike Paciello is another one. Right. And we had been friendly. What I would call a friendly competitor helping each other back and forth with with that with the Paciello group anyways. And so we merged under them and it was sort of the second phase of my learning, you know I really had gotten an incredible foundation from Kathy, and then just being exposed to this wider group of accessibility professionals, I just continued to learn I had been involved in creating accessibility maturity models. We created one at Interactive Accessibility called Pax, the Proactive Accessibility Conformance Model. It kind of blended with what with what the Paciello Group was doing when we merged with them. So that name faded off. But I continued to work there on that and enjoyed another if I can do my math, eight years five, eight, five, six, five, eight plus five is 13. At the at what became TPG. Right. So TPG, the Paciello group and I was the I in interactive accessibility the little I. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Mark Miller: You know our logo and we just went through a lot of a lot of things in terms of building teams to you know, work with customers to bring customers on working on services, products, all of that to satisfy the needs in the industry. It was just really a great eight years. And then this summer, I moved away from that to start inclusion, impact, accessibility really wanting to go back into a boutique business situation and one where we could offer more of a concierge type service to our clients and really dig in deep. And this is so during this time, I also joined the W3c's accessibility maturity, the Model task force. I'm not going to give you the full name, but it's the task force that's creating the accessibility maturity model they're working with. Dr. Kirk Adams: Let me pause for one second. So you know, you've gone from a fairly large in our industry, you know, pretty, pretty big player. Yep. And now you've stepped into creating your own entity. So just curious going from that kind of big universe to one where you get to shape what you do, your service offerings, the way you approach things. Maybe maybe you I think you said maybe you use the term deep, deep dive or dig into. But what? What aspects of you know, accessibility writ large really resonate with you? Where where do you feel your energies taking you in the new endeavor? Mark Miller: Yeah. So what's interesting about that is that, you know, I can give you a very clear answer, which I will, but then there's also like an unclear side of it. So part of the excitement is the ability to chase down things that you didn't have the ability to chase down before and explore and expand those horizons. And for me, it's a little bit of a coming home, because that's what I really remembered and enjoyed from when when Interactive Accessibility was a small company. The things that really resonate with me is that I think, you know, a lot of the directions that we've seen larger organizations go in and this this is something I, you know, that's needed to a degree, But there's kind of a commoditization of the services. Right? And I think that that works in a lot of instances. But for me, it's much more interesting to meet the customer where they are and to really think about how do we how do we help this customer create a strategy for them that is going to lead to get them what they need today, right, in a in a way that's reasonable and lead to long term success. And there's a lot of buzzwords out there, and there's a lot of you got to shift left and you need, you know, but that's very, very different than really working with somebody really being able to dig in with an organization and maybe give them some things that are just unique to them, along with a lot of the things that, are, for lack of a better way to say it, I'll say, are standard, right? You know, people are going to need audits. Mark Miller: People are going to need tooling and monitoring and all that kind of stuff. So that's that's typically going to be a part of it. And that is why the Maturity Model stuff is so exciting to me, because the maturity model is that step back and it says, let's take a look at the organization. Let's take a look at where it is now. And let's take it is a big the big version of it. Right. Unless, unless create a roadmap to bring it to a different state of capability incrementally right over time. So I think to answer your question, Kirk, it really is about that ability to be innovative with the organization, to be a true partner to to an organization and really help them solve problems instead of just you know, kind of putting, putting over services and tooling that you know, in, in kind of one way, I guess would be the way to say it, you know, more of a commoditized way. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, so for those listeners who are not as conversant in the jargon or nomenclature of digital accessibility, can you explain to us what a maturity model is? Mark Miller: Absolutely. So. So first of all, a maturity model is not something specific to accessibility. But as soon as I say put an A in front of it. Right. So that that's the accessibility part of it, right. So am accessibility maturity model. But a maturity model is, is really just a model by which an organization can mature the maturity part of it, a capability, a capability could be anything in this case, the capability that you and I think about is accessibility. So typically you can build your own model from scratch or you can take existing models. And that's what the is going on over under the watch of the W3C. Is that there by consensus, trying to create one that's sort of a good general model for anyone that wants to improve accessibility. So typically when an organization learns about this thing, accessibility figures out the need to conform to a guideline. You know, it could be for a lot of reasons, you know, that they enter into it. The first thing they do is they get an audit and they fix, let's just say it's a website, right? Your website could be an application, but they fix it. And when I say fix it, I mean they make it accessible. So audit tells them what's wrong. It tells them how to address things. They go in and for this moment in time, and that efforts complete. They have they're holding on to something that's accessible. Dr. Kirk Adams: Gotcha. Mark Miller: But websites move. So the accessibility doesn't doesn't stick around if you don't intentionally put processes in place in your within the organization, within the software development lifecycle that keep it accessible. So a maturity model is how do we step by step over time continue to improve and mature a practice like including accessibility in our development process. That's what the model is. And if you look at when we went to responsive design, nobody was doing responsive design. They had to bake building websites with responsive design into their policies, procedures, processes, all that kind of stuff. So it's the same type of type of effort that you think that makes sense for the. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Mark Miller: Yeah. Great. Dr. Kirk Adams: Shift left shift. Mark Miller: Left shift left. Dr. Kirk Adams: I know I may say that phrase, I don't know, six, seven times a week. And I talk to people and I say, you know, I just even a newsletter I get there's, you know, tons of unlabeled graphics and you see the Jaws screen reader software is reading me the formatting detail saying, you know, shape rounded corner. I don't I don't need to hear that stuff. So, you know, I just I organizations I care about are involved with. I say, you know, whoever you're paying to do this require that they comply with the accessibility standards. And sometimes I'll say, you know, we call that shifting. It left. You don't have to do it. But whoever you're paying you know, you should require them to do it. Is that is that a fair summation of what shift left means, or is there more nuance? Mark Miller: Yeah, there's probably a little bit more nuance, but I think I think, you know, to sum it up, that's it. The the term comes from, it's really a term that fits into the software development life cycle. Dr. Kirk Adams: So okay. Mark Miller: Really like real quick, you know, the software development lifecycle looks something like you create requirements, you make a design, the developers then develop the software according to that design QA, then test the software to make sure it works. Maybe there may be cycles and cycles and cycles here. But then once everybody, you know, once the thumbs up happen, then it goes into what's called production. And production is what you see. If it's if it's a website, when you go to the website, you're seeing the production version of the website. So when that's graphically represented, it's represented with that. With that, the requirements phase all the way to the left and then that final production phase all the way to the right. So when I, when somebody says, oh, we need to all of a sudden make our website accessible, what happens is on that all the way to the right on the production, that's where they do all the work. What's wrong? What do we fix? And that's the most expensive place to fix stuff. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? Mark Miller: Because it's already out there. Right? It's like it's much easier to build something into the house while you're building it versus to retrofit it. Right. Cut the wall to add a window instead of adding it along the way. So shifting left is each step towards the left, away from that production or earlier earlier than production that you can make the less expensive. It is to include something like accessibility, the less likely you are to have things like accessibility issues enter into production, because once they enter into production, that's where risk occurs. The risk of Doctor Kirk Adams trying to look, trying to consume your website with his screen reader and having it not work because of the, you know, the things that you mentioned or having parts of it not work or having there be a barrier not allowing you to go further, that's a risk. And then, of course, there's legal implications as well when when those things don't work. So that's the genesis of it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Got it. So so as far as inclusion impact accessibility goes are are you started last summer. Are you are you turning over? Are you sitting up? Are you crawling? Walking? Yes, running. Where are you at? Mark Miller: Yes. No. So we're we're pretty new. We've got a lot of a lot of things on the table. Iron in the fire, you know, as as the as the as the founder and CEO, of course, I want I want to be running a lot faster than I am, but but realistically I know that that's that's that would be a, you know, unusual. So right now, I'm about where I expected to be at this period of time. We've got, you know, we've got clients we're working with and we're we're seeing that vision of really being something more to the client. And we're also we've got some software and development, you know, some. And this, this is the exciting stuff that I can run with that I was never able to run with before. But I've got a platform around being able to track your progress and create actionable plans. To improve your capabilities. According to the that accessibility maturity model. So we're that's not ready for prime time yet, but those are the things that we're working on in the background and just having a great time. So it's probably a casual walk and I'm not gonna stay in the park because it's not in the park. There's a lot of it's a casual walk, but there's a lot of obstacles, you know, trash cans tipped over on the sidewalk. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, right. Right. Mark Miller: Icy. It's icy here. So, you know, we've got. Dr. Kirk Adams: Ice. Mark Miller: On a slip. Dr. Kirk Adams: So the first time when I moved to New York to move into the honour of leading the American Foundation for the blind, they put us in corporate housing on 43rd, between eighth and ninth, which, you know, the city, it's very near Times Square. It's Hell's Kitchen, a block from the Port Authority. Mark Miller: I'm familiar with it. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And I had an orientation and mobility instructor to help me learned my route to the office, which was at two Penn Plaza. So on seventh between 31st and 33rd escalator coming up from Penn Station, right, right next to the building. And ONM instructor said, you know, what's your experience in navigating heavily trafficked areas? I said, pretty good. And then we turned onto Seventh Avenue in about a block. I said. I said I need to tell you that I never experienced anything like this. Yeah. So I think it's that kind of a walk. Yeah. That that that came to mind. Yeah. And the one thing she said was don't don't trust the pedestrians. Don't cross when they cross because they will cross against the light all the time. So yeah. Mark Miller: That's a good analogy, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: But yeah. Mark Miller: Any businesses like that and you know, it's it creates a lot of excitement. I mean, it's. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, it does. Mark Miller: That's what. Dr. Kirk Adams: Keeps. Keeps the keeps the adrenaline level high. Mark Miller: It does. Yeah. And I need I need that. We talked about the ad and the dyslexia. Right. So the that that adrenaline boost helps both of those things. Indeed. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, so ideal. Ideal clients. Size of business, any particular industries, any characteristics of clients that, that. Yeah, tend to be a good fit with what you're doing. Mark Miller: So the, the interesting thing is about that, you know, with the with 13 years in this industry, I was able to really put something robust together pretty quickly. So large clients are great. But also I was very careful to make sure that the model was would work with smaller clients, and that was more of a A choice on my part, because one of the things I think that the industry struggles with is offering robust but cost effective and overall effective solutions for the smaller business. It's a little bit harder to make money, you know, in the smaller businesses, to be honest, because it's the same amount of effort but for a smaller effort. However it's not impossible and I think that it's needed. So I really wanted to, you know, part of what we're doing is we're making sure that we can run those kind of things in, in a way that makes sense on both sides. And then, you know, I've worked with some of the largest logos in the world in my, in my history of, of accessibility here. And I'm poised to do that again. So I'm a big believer, if any, if any business entrepreneur people or or listening out there, I'm a big believer in a diverse portfolio. I think that that really helps businesses become accessible, accessible, successful. If you're relying on a few large clients, that's difficult if you're just, you know, spinning away at a bunch of small clients, that can be difficult as well. So a nice balance there. So that's what I'm really looking for is a nice balance. And I think that the ideal customer is one who wants somebody, wants an organization that's truly going to be there as a partner for them. If you just need services, we can do that. But I think our success is going to be in that true partnership. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I know, I know, you have a great disposition toward toward partnering. And you know, we're both in the persons with Disabilities Media Co-op that Aaron Douglas and mine Vault Solutions. Mark Miller: Yeah it's a great. Dr. Kirk Adams: Co managing we like to grow that. So I will put in a little plug for that. If you are interested in disability inclusion and want to get your messaging out and want to share your platforms with, with others so we can amplify each other's messaging certainly let me know. And I'm Kirk Adams at Dr. Kirk Adams. Com is my email address, and I'm on LinkedIn every day. So Kirk Adams, PhD on LinkedIn. So put it put it in a little plug for the PWD Media Co-op. And Mark, as you look for as you look forward down the road, you're less than a year in as founder and CEO of your company. What what what do you envision? You know, create creating the vision is the primary function of a leader, I think, and creating and holding that vision. So where do you see things going? Mark Miller: Yeah. First of all, I just want to echo what you said about the co-op. I had a blog post go out on it this morning. It's an as a new business needing effective and cost effective ways to get the word out. It has been a real gem for me in my part of my vision is to use it more and more and more than I have. But it's I'm glad you said something, because it's great, but, yeah, the vision for the business is you know, there's a couple different directions I can see it going into, you know I could see it sort of staying very small and really doing a great job for a handful of clients, and I definitely. The one thing I know that I really, really want it to do is rapidly keep pace with changes in the industry. We're at a super interesting time. And in technology. Right. With, with artificial intelligence and the large language models out there. And a lot of people look at, you know, a lot of people look at that and they say, okay, well, how is artificial intelligence going to make it so that we don't need to do manual audits? You know, so these automated audits can can catch and that's, you know, a fine thing to think about. And we haven't seen that happen yet. At least I haven't been able to get my hands on something that really moves the needle that way yet. But for me, it's the other things that are interesting when it comes to a change like AI. Like, how is that going to change the screen reader that you use? How is that? And how is that changing the way that we develop software? Right. Mark Miller: That's why these maturity models and stuff are so important. Because what a person needs to do to include accessibility in the development process is changing rapidly with video coding, with AI assisted coding. But what needs to be done? The shift left part of it, right? Having it included in that development process doesn't change. It's how you do it, right? So how do you effectively make sure that when you're coding with AI that you have in in this moment in time, it would be called a skill that you've developed a skill so that as that thing codes, it's thinking about accessibility. And I'm going to tell you right now, you can put all the skills in the world. It's just like any other situation. It doesn't it makes something better but not fully accessible. So you still need to test. You still need to come back around and remediate. You know, you need cycles in there when you find out it didn't quite do something right. And so now the way that we work with organizations and we talk about how to, how to do this thing called accessibility that shifts. So my vision is to keep, you know, is to have a company that is flexible and nimble enough to where it's sort of staying in front of those or not in front of, but closer to at pace with those, those kind of things. But to do that in a very human way, you know, so that we're, we're doing it for the people that it impacts and we're trying to help those organizations do it in a way that is, is is successful, is efficient, and is sustainable as possible. That's the vision. Dr. Kirk Adams: I like to ask you to talk a few more minutes about AI. I'm not a technical person. I have a Perkins Brailler here and a slate and stylus in my bag. And you know, I use technology probably at about a three out of ten level of sophistication. But I went to Consumer Electronics Show, CES January in my role as an advisor to an, a shareholder in AI. And the last time I went was five years ago. And you had to have a positive Covid test before you get your registration badge. And it was all it was all robotics robots to do, the robots to cook, robots to mix your drinks, robots to deliver mail. This time everything was AI and a lot of stuff was seemed bolted on. And I, you know, my my layperson's understanding was a lot of things that I would call automation were being labeled as AI. So in the world of accessibility where do you see AI being helpful and where do you see pitfalls in the AI landscape vis a vis accessibility? Mark Miller: Yeah. Well, the first thing I'll I'll say is that that changes every day. Ask me this question tomorrow. I might have a different answer for you. Right. Because of how rapidly this is changing. But I think the pitfalls are in overtrusting AI to be able to do what human beings are doing right now when it comes to the testing. Type thing. I think the really exciting areas are and you can, you can speak to this if this is your experience. But I've heard from a lot of my friends who are blind that they really rely on AI, that the traditional searching for information on the web is sort of cumbersome compared to you know, using an AI. So things like that are exciting. And I think that, you know, we're in an exciting place when it comes to coding. If you if you rewind a year or two, I think that most people were like this AI coding thing, and it's just making things worse, and it's coding fast but bad. You know, I think we're starting to approach today a period where people are going. Actually, I figured out how to make this thing right. Pretty good code. I'm not a developer, so take that with a grain of salt. You know I'm just kind of kind of reading the tea leaves, you know, a little bit from from what I hear my developer friends say. Yeah. So you know, so the exciting areas are. Well, if that's the case and with the ability for that coding to operate on right now, I think skills is the hot way to do it. Right. But it's basically you can tell the AI coder, hey, when you code you know, this is your skill, follow this group of things. And this is where we're looking. This is where my company is looking at this a lot as we're looking at how do you prompt AI and what do you feed AI to make sure it's as informed as possible on how code should be written to be accessible. Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Mark Miller: And and I'm not I'm not alone in doing that. A lot of people are doing that. But that's exciting, right? If we can if we can develop a way to say, hey, you know, code this thing, but you're always coding. And once you plug that in, it's like, this is how you always do it. You always do it accessibly. Yeah. And then how can we make this faster? How can we make the humans faster? So there's, you know, people are still going to need to test manually, but how can we make it faster when they when they take the issue that they find and they need to put it into a report. You know, that process between those two things, how can that be faster. You know, so there's a lot of really, really smart and and creative people out there that are looking at AI that way. And then I'll tell you one more thing that I find really interesting. And I've mentioned this a couple of times, but I have dyslexia, and I read early on, early on, midway through kind of our AI journey here, that it was going to bring back people with dyslexia. So we've had a hard time in business because we we look foolish, right? We would write an email and there would be misspellings in it, and we would take longer or miss things when we read stuff. And, you know, all these all these things that you can imagine that come with, with dyslexia. In fact, part of the way I accommodated this person with dyslexia is I use a screen reader, and I listen back to a lot of stuff that I write because I can hear mistakes and not see them. Mark Miller: And but people with dyslexia put together seemingly unrelated concepts, thoughts, ideas really well. Right. So a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of innovators, a lot of your authors and rice are, are they're very narrative too. Right? So storytellers are dyslexic. And so it comes with these advantages because the brain works differently and the AI is kind of the perfect tool for that, right? It doesn't require that technical perfection. It is really quick to grab disparate data. Right. Different things and say let's mush these things together. Things together. Let's mush this together. So. And it you know, we're we're we have you know, short term memories, difficult and traditional learning scenarios. It gives us multimodal ways to consume content, which helps in learning. And then it it kind of doesn't require that. Same. So it's really interesting to, I think in how I'm sorry, this is a long winded, but my point here is how AI is going to impact and improve. And I'm talking about from the standpoint of dyslexia. But on the opposite end of that is, is is autism. How is it going to impact and improve the lives, the work lives, the productivity, the creativity, all those things for this neurodivergent group of people? You know, that's that's interesting to me. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So you're the first person I've talked to who's really talked about AI and dyslexia specifically. So that's super interesting to me. And I'd love to talk with you more about that next time we get together on a podcast interview. But how how would you how would you like people listening to engage? How would how would you like people to connect? Mark Miller: Yeah. So my website is https://InclusionImpact.co. And the way you spell CO, is you spell it COM backspace. Dr. Kirk Adams: Very good I'll remember that. Mark Miller: Yeah that's that's how I type to this day I cannot my fingers want to type com but it's not com. It's Co. So you need that backspace in there to fix it. So you're welcome to reach out to me there. You can you can hit that contact form there and it'll I'll see it. Also just [email protected] gets to me. And here's what I want to say to people. I'd love to have conversations this moment in my day right now with you, Kirk is probably going to be the highlight of it because we're having a cool conversation and being an interview with me. It's I get to talk a lot, which is also exciting, but the so don't feel like you've got to be showing up to do business with me. If you need help, if you have thoughts, if you're just wondering, I am consultative by nature and I want to talk to you. And I want to if, if, if it just ends up being a great conversation, that's more than enough for me. But reach out. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful. And same here. If you want to talk about disability inclusion and creating environments and opportunities where people are blind or have other significant disabilities can thrive in their lives according to their own definition of thriving. I'm up for that. I had a conversation today with a young lady who's just finishing her undergrad in neuroscience and is applying to PhD programs, and she's legally blind. And, you know, I had that PhD journey, so I was able to give her some encouragement and a couple tips, and direct her to a couple resources. There's a Facebook group for blind PhDs and PhD candidates she wasn't aware of. So it doesn't have to be a big thing, right? It can be a medium sized thing or a small thing. I know that's true for you, Marc. Yeah. And if people want to reach me again, it's [email protected] or @KirkAdamsPhD, on LinkedIn. And thanks for listening to another episode of a podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams, and we'll see you next time. Thanks so much, Mark. Mark Miller: Thank you so much. Kirk, I really appreciate it. And thanks to everyone who listens to this podcast. I hope to you know, run into you all someday. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yep. And we'll we'll check in in about six months and have you back again in celebrate your progress. Thank you so much. And we'll catch you all later next time. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.DrKirkAdams.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Sheryl Green, Author, Speaker, Boundary Expert https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-02-05-2026/ In this thought-provoking episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams sits down with author, speaker, and boundary expert Sheryl Green for a wide-ranging and deeply human conversation about why boundaries matter, and why so many of us struggle to set them. Green shares her personal journey from forensic psychology and years of animal rescue work to a moment of burnout that became a turning point in her life. That experience led her to study, teach, and ultimately write about boundaries as a practical, compassionate tool for protecting our time, energy, relationships, and sense of self. Together, they unpack concepts like "yes-vomiting," people-pleasing, and the hidden costs of failing to say no, especially when it comes to emotional and time boundaries. The conversation takes on added depth as Dr. Adams connects Green's boundary framework to the lived experience of disability. Drawing from his own life as a blind leader, he explores how people with disabilities routinely face boundary violations, ranging from intrusive questions to unwanted physical "help", and how understanding boundaries can be empowering rather than isolating. Green reflects on the difference between impairment and disability, acknowledges the role of "aggressive helpfulness," and emphasizes that setting boundaries is not about shutting people out, but about creating healthier, more respectful interactions. The episode closes with a shared call to action: building a more inclusive, empathetic world, one boundary at a time. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Podcast Commentator: I can't see it. Podcast Commentator: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. And I am that Doctor Kirk Adams speaking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have a guest on. I'm really excited to to engage in some deep conversation. Author, speaker and boundary expert Sheryl Greene is with us today. Hi, Sheryl. Sheryl Green: Hi. Thank you so much for having me on here. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, absolutely. And my first experience with Sheryl was being interviewed by her for a book she's writing. She's written a series of books, and I've signed up for her newsletter. And just very interesting food for thought. And her area of interest and focus is, is boundaries. And she is not necessarily as immersed in disability world and lived or learned experience around disability as most of my guests have been. So I'm, I'm super interested in talking with you about boundaries. What led you to focus, what your interest is, how how you think about boundaries, how you assist people in living better lives by knowing how to set boundaries. And then I'd really like to talk to you a little bit about some of my thoughts around disability and boundaries and get your take on that. So I love it. Before we get into that, for anyone who doesn't know me, I am a Kirk Adams. I'm a blind person, am I? That's that's that's my primary identity. I am also a a father, a scholar, a grandfather, now, a husband for 40 years. My retina is detached. When I was five years old became totally blind overnight. Went to a school for blind kids for second, third grade. Learned my braille, my cane, travel my typing in the public school, on on up through college. Dr. Kirk Adams: Corporate America, Banking and Finance for ten years, then into the nonprofit sector led the American Foundation for the blind, most recently Helen Keller's organization prior to that same leadership roles at the Lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle. And now I have a consulting practice called Innovative Impact, LLC. I do whatever I want that I think will be fun and innovative and high impact and will make a difference and make the world a more inclusive place for people with disabilities. I primarily focus on employment, creating career pathways for people with disabilities. I also advise a handful of disability tech startups. I work with some nonprofits to help them scale past the founder stage and increase their impact. And I have a podcast and do some writing and living the life here in here in Seattle. So, Sheryl Want to hand the microphone to you. And I'm always curious how people come to their avocation or their passion or their purpose. And your purpose is to help people understand boundaries and understand what boundaries the dynamics of boundaries in people's lives and how people can live better lives by understanding setting. And, you know, I've been reading your newsletter with great interest. So would love, love, love to hear your story for sure. Sheryl Green: So yeah, I like to say my mission is to make the world a better place. One boundary at a time. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheryl Green: So my story is a little circuitous, if you will. I actually went to a graduate school for forensic psychology. I was goth back in the day, and I wanted to hunt down serial killers for a living. Thankfully, that didn't pan out. But it kind of led to an interesting decade and a half, almost two of really searching for my purpose and my reason for my reason for being here. Sheryl Green: I think the the closest that I came before this was animal rescue. I'm a huge, huge animal advocate. And when I was going through my divorce, animals are pretty much what saved me. Between my own dog and volunteering and getting involved, it just completely set my life on a different path. And I did animal rescue for 12 years. I worked in multiple capacities. I was a volunteer. I was a board member. I worked part time at one point, and then during Covid I went full time. I had been running my own content writing business for a little while, and when when Covid hit and the world shut down like many businesses, mine evaporated overnight. People were not so worried about getting blogs out there when they didn't know if they were going to live to see the next week. So I, you know, pivoted and I went full time at the rescue and threw myself into you know, into taking care of the animals. But I was I was on the, the marketing and the communications side of it. So I called myself the director of communication and cuddling which is a very important job. Thank you very much. So so I did that for you know, probably about a year that I was full time. And if you've ever worked in nonprofit, I know you have. You know, full time is not eight hours a day. It's you know, ten, 12, sometimes 14 hours a day. And it's, you know, no one really goes into nonprofit to get rich. So each, each month, I saw my savings account going down, and I wasn't necessarily making enough money to to keep a roof over my head and. And kibble in the dog's bowl. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheryl Green: So when my clients started coming back, I. I wanted to take them, of course, but more importantly, I had to. And And it was, you know, it was okay for a little while, I would work my ten, 12 hour days, and then I would come home and and work on client projects in the evening. And then, of course, we have, you know, life is life is still lifing. So my parents were getting older and they were needing more and more of my help. My stepmom had been sick for about 20 years at that point. And I'm still volunteering for everything because I never met a board I said no to. Okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: And we share that weakness. Sheryl Green: Yeah. Sheryl Green: I have a good book for you to read. Sheryl Green: So, you know, it got to the. Sheryl Green: Point where I was overwhelmed. I was having having trouble sleeping, but having trouble staying awake. I was really short with people. My normally pretty positive and pleasant demeanor turned into me snapping at people. And I'm not proud of the amount of times that I said I just can't effing do this anymore. So things were getting rough, and what really, really hit me the most was this feeling of resentment that was building up. I felt like every request was this unreasonable demands on my time, and I was starting to resent the people that I loved, and even to some degree, the animals. And it it all kind of hit hit rock bottom, I guess. It's probably about October of that year, and I was running an errand. Dr. Kirk Adams: Is this the first year of the pandemic or. Sheryl Green: This is 2022, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheryl Green: Yeah. Somewhere. Somewhere around there. Dr. Kirk Adams: Gotcha. Sheryl Green: And I had or 2021. Dr. Kirk Adams: Excuse me. Okay. Sheryl Green: And I was, you know, I'm out running an errand for the rescue. It's it's probably about 6:00 at night. And lights, you know, headlights are starting to come on, and I had just been crying nonstop for weeks at that point, and I had this split second thought of, you know, if I just crossed over the median, this could all be over in a second. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheryl Green: And it was just this huge wake up call, obviously. I mean, I, I didn't want to hurt anybody else for sure. And I didn't want to leave my, my dogs or my parents without anyone to take care of them. So I managed to pull myself over onto the side of the road, and I just sat there crying for a good ten minutes, trying to calm myself down and realizing that if something major didn't change in my life very quickly, I wasn't going to be around to help anybody. Sheryl Green: Took a month off from the rescue and ended up not going back. And over the next six months I cleared off my plate and then watched it all build back up again. Dr. Kirk Adams: Different things, different things, different things. Okay. Sheryl Green: Different. The same. It just, you know, all the all the. I say all the tasks came back and they brought friends. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheryl Green: And it took about about six months before a friend of mine sent me an article about boundaries. I remember looking at it and just going like, oh, this sounds like something I should have. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheryl Green: And, you know, I, I learned through reading. Dr. Kirk Adams: Why why did that why did you send you that article? Sheryl Green: Because she probably knew something I didn't. Sheryl Green: You know, I was at that point where I couldn't even, I couldn't see what was right in front of me. And the problem at hand so yeah, it, I think she just knew something I didn't and knew I was struggling. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, that's a good friend. Sheryl Green: That is a good friend. And yeah, I ended up, I figured, hey, if I have this problem, I'm probably not the only one who does. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? Sheryl Green: So I started writing a book, and I did my research, you know, in an in an effort to write this book and to learn to learn my way, but also to help other people along their path. And I've been teaching boundaries and writing about them ever since, and I finally found my purpose. Really? Long story. Dr. Kirk Adams: No, no, I'm. I'm just thinking. So is there Gosh, how do you go about learning about boundaries? You said you spent time learning, learning about and understanding boundaries. Sheryl Green: I did I well, I read everything I could get my hands on. I've. I've been an avid reader since I was eight years old, and you know, was failing social studies and my parents told me I couldn't watch TV anymore. So. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheryl Green: The Baby-Sitters club was my gateway drug. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hey. Dr. Kirk Adams: I have a daughter named Rachel. Who? Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. Dr. Kirk Adams: It was in California because she read a Baby-Sitters club book with a girl from California. In it. She was 12. Said I'm moving to California. Sheryl Green: I love that. It really I mean, it had a profound impact on so many. But yeah, I just I read everything I could. I started reaching out to you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Studied psychology, right? I did talk about forensic psychology. So? So I'm imagining there are scholars and people who study boundaries from that lens. Right? Sheryl Green: From the forensic lens I. Dr. Kirk Adams: Have from. Dr. Kirk Adams: The just looking at boundaries from a psych. Oh, yeah. Sheryl Green: Yes. Yeah. For sure. And I think, you know, that was part of I'm very clear in my book. Look, I'm not a therapist. I'm not. And I did give it to a therapist before I published it because I wanted to be responsible and say, like, hey, I don't want to hurt anyone. Dr. Kirk Adams: You know? So let's be more specific. The book tell, tell. Oh, sorry about sorry. That's okay. Sheryl Green: Everyone knows. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, well, a lot more people are about to know. Sheryl Green: So. Yeah, while I was going through this, I wrote a book called You Had Me at know how setting healthy boundaries helps banish burnout, repair relationships, and save your sanity. Dr. Kirk Adams: You had me at. No. Sheryl Green: You had me at no. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I, Sheryl with an S. Sheryl Green: Yes, yes. Sheryl with an S. And you know, I haven't done an audiobook yet. There is an e-book. I haven't done an audiobook yet, but I always tell people if they want to hire me, I'll drive around in the car with them and read. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, there you go. Sheryl Green: So? Dr. Kirk Adams: So tell tell us, tell us about the book. Give it. Give us the the CliffsNotes version of. Of what? What you teach. Sheryl Green: Yeah. So I, I talk about first why we don't set boundaries. Sheryl Green: And so yes, I'm coming from a psychology with a, you know, a spice of forensics in there. But I also majored in anthropology in college, and I wanted to look at not only the individual but also the the group dynamic that goes into boundaries or a lack thereof. And I think, you know, look, I can teach people to set boundaries all day long, but if they don't actually believe that they have the right to set boundaries which many, many of us don't or didn't. Okay. All the tools and tricks in the world aren't going to help. Dr. Kirk Adams: And why don't we set boundaries? Or why don't we think we have the right to set boundaries? Sheryl Green: So the really quick and the really silly answer is we're afraid of getting eaten. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheryl Green: So if you look at this from a biological you know, anthropological standpoint. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheryl Green: We've got that lizard brain that's still kind of ruling many of our decisions when we're in a fear state. And we, you know, when we're a part of the group and a part of the tribe and, and we're all working together, there's somebody that's watching our back so we can go to sleep. And, you know, we're not going to get eaten by a passing tiger, right? But if we if we do something that displeases the tribe, then, you know, we're not we're not pulling our own weight or we feel like we are taking advantage or whatever that may be. We're afraid of being cast out. And if we get cast out, then a tiger can get us. So it sounds silly, and I promise you, no one in the moment is going if I say no to, you know, picking up my, you know, sister's kids or something. I'm gonna be eaten. However, that's what our brain is actually doing. Dr. Kirk Adams: Gotcha. So I had studied immunity to change. There's a book. Immunity to change. Interesting. Kagan, Lahey. And and the premise is to understand what bad thing will happen if I change. So it's, you know, they talk about weight loss and people smoking, and we know it's good. We know it's good for us. We know we want to do it. We know we should do it. Why don't we do it? Because deep down, somewhere, we think something really bad will happen if we do that change. So that's that's that's what you just reminded me of when you talked about that. We know we should set boundaries. We know we should do what's best for us. We know we should guard our time and our energy. Yeah, but we don't because we're afraid something bad will happen. Yeah. Sheryl Green: Yeah. And I mean to your point with, you know if you stop smoking yeah you're going to be healthier. But hey you probably hang around with a lot of other smokers right. And if you stop smoking well there you go. You're out of the tribe. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yep. Yep. Gotcha. So so then how do we go about changing? Yeah. Sheryl Green: So realizing it is the first step, honestly knowing knowing that you not only have the right, but you also actually have the responsibility to set boundaries. And that that sounds a little bit, you know, a little bit weird. But boundaries are not just something we do for ourselves. They're actually something that improves our relationships, that protects the people around us, that help us serve our clients better. They help us, you know, take care of our children better. Whatever. Whatever your deal is. So we actually cause more problems when we don't set boundaries. And I just I just wrote a blog about this, and I don't. I think it might have gone live today, but you know, people pleasing we we think of that as, you know, I'm thinking about everybody else right now, and I'm just going to do whatever they want just to make them happy. But it's actually really selfish because we're doing it to protect ourselves from the immediate discomfort of letting someone down. So it's kind of a little flip on it. So. Dr. Kirk Adams: What what what what what types of things. I don't, I don't know, the language probably is but I'll, I'll fumble my way through this. But what, what types of things do we need to set boundaries around or against or what what what what types of things that can be negative impacts in our lives. Do we need to build boundaries? I don't know what words you set boundaries around. Set boundaries against. You're good. What are the types of things you know? I can think of the obvious things like, you know, I just did it today. Will you join our board? I said sure. Can you can you watch our kids Friday night? Can you loan me money? Can you can we build a can? Can we build a fence between our yards? And will you pay? Half that just happened to me. Yeah. Sheryl Green: Oh my God. So the answer, the quick answer. Is everything okay? The longer answer is. So there's actually six inter internationally six recognized boundary categories. And then I added a seventh. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheryl Green: But you're you're looking. Dr. Kirk Adams: See, that's what I should have said. I should have said Sheryl, what are the seven boundary categories? Sheryl Green: You're good. I trust me, I don't know a lot of the words for your world. So we're we're we're even. It's okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: So what are the seven boundary? Sheryl Green: So they are time materials, which includes money, physical, sexual, emotional. I don't know how many I just said, but and then I think that was all of them. And then I added one which is relational, which is pretty much how you allow the people and the animals in your life to be treated. So if you are a leader, you know, are you letting your employees are you letting your customers you know, scream at your employees? And the reason I came up with this is because I had someone at my house who didn't want my dog putting his cute little face on their leg, and they kicked him. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, boy. Sheryl Green: Yes. So he that that man is no longer welcome in my house or my world. But you know, when you think when we think about boundaries, I my very basic definition is how you allow yourself, and by extension, your stuff, to be treated. Okay, that's the really un un unofficial definition there. But you know, when you think about it, I'm going to go out and say absolutely everything in our life comes down to a boundary. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. So let's I'd like I'd like to think through a couple things with you together so people with disabilities. So first let's talk about the difference between an impairment and disability. And I think you and I talked about that. Sheryl Green: Yes. It blew. Dr. Kirk Adams: My mind. For your for your book. So I have a visual impairment. I cannot see. So my sense of sight is impaired. But that doesn't mean I am always in a disabling situation. So I think the little example I used with you, which I use a lot, is if I'm running that board meeting and I have my agenda in Braille and my committee reports and my finance reports I am my vision. My visual impairment does not put me in a disabling situation because I'm a Braille reader. I can manage that meeting just as well as a sighted person could with print. But if I walk in, sit down at the conference table and you slide me a stack of print, then I am in a disabling situation because my impairment does not allow me to interact effectively with the built environment of the print. And there's the three environments the built, the digital and the social. So, so given that there's there's a lot of misunderstanding about disability and impairment and whether a person's in a disabling situation or not, there's a lot of fluidity around that that the general population hasn't either lived with a disability or known someone deeply who has a disability. They don't understand that weight, that impairment with a disability. And then there's these tropes. There's the heroic trope where you're so inspirational. And I've had people, I've had people say, you do so well, as I sit down in an airplane seat and buckle my seat belt. Sheryl Green: Did they pat you on the head? That would be. That would be. Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice. And then there's the helpless. The assumption that that you're you're not capable. So assumed incompetence. But I got it. Our our boundaries are invaded. I thought, you know, sexual terribly. People with disabilities are sexually abused more than the general population. But then there's physical and emotional. So staring you know, studies show that people with disabilities are stared at in a way that a person without a disability never would be. Questions people ask. Right? How you know. I've had people writing a city bus. I just need to ask how. How did you know? How do you get dressed? How? You know how do you know what clothes to put on? Right. Taking the metro bus, reading Braille for many years, going downtown to Seattle for work. I had people dozens of times ask me, what are you reading? And I don't hear them asking anyone else on the bus who's reading? What they're reading. You know, grab invading, invading our space and and our bodies. You know how how many times have a blind person listening to this? You've been standing at a curb waiting for the light to change. You're using your techniques. You're listening for the traffic to to move. So, so, you know, to cross with the flow of the traffic and have someone grab you, you know, physically grab you and propel, start propelling you across the street. Right? Things that people would never do to someone who, who didn't have a, an apparent impairment. So just from your level of expertise just any thoughts on on on what what I just said or. Sheryl Green: Yes. So, I mean, so many I, you know, the first thing I would say is, and I actually, I'm about to write the chapter where I'm going to talk about our conversation. Awesome. So this this came at a really good time. I stopped this morning right before it, just so we could have this conversation. Okay. I bet it's going to be more helpful. So, you know, I think I think one thing to realize is that most people. I'm not saying not I'm not saying everyone there are some true asshats out there. But most people are not coming from a bad place. Does not make it easier on you. I'm just saying most people are not going like, hahaha, there's a blind guy I'm gonna, like, scare him and drag him across the street, right? Dr. Kirk Adams: I would agree with you. Sheryl Green: You know, I think, I think for the most part people are like, hey, they're making an assumption which is not appropriate, but they're making an assumption that this person needs help. And I can help them and, you know, or asking questions. Again, I don't think it's most of the time coming from a bad place. I think it's probably coming from a, hey, I'm I'm curious. You know, I want to learn more, like an inquisitive place. All that to say, not that you should just put up with it. But I think I think switching, switching the mindset over from, you know, it's it's kind of like a an attack to it's it it's aggravated helping. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. That's good. Sheryl Green: So and I will say, you know, I have a, I have a good friend that I've, I've done rescue with for years. She is a quadriplegic and, you know, has the use of basically one hand, she's in a motorized wheelchair. And of course, there are questions you know, when we when I've been out and about with her especially, you know, we we used to go to schools and talk to them about how to, how to care for, for dogs and cats. But, you know, she, I think kind of really mastered the art of, you know, if somebody was staring at her, she just said, hey, I notice you're looking at me. Did you have any questions? Because usually, usually they're coming from a good place. I think the the the cross that that you have to bear. Not that I've ever used that explanation or that wording, but is to to set boundaries in situations that other people wouldn't have to is to be able to say you know, I'm actually not comfortable talking about what happened or I don't, I don't share that with strangers. Thank you for asking. You know, if you want to continue the conversation, tell me something about you. I like that, you know if somebody does does grab you, and it does feel like they're, you know, about to propel you across the street. Just saying. Whoa. Hey, you know what? I actually appreciate your concern. However, it's appropriate to ask before touching someone. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? Sheryl Green: You know, it's it's that it's those. How do I put that? It's it's the human decencies that we were supposed to be taught as children, and we've definitely lost. In a lot of circumstances. But I think I think it's aggressive helpfulness in a lot of a lot of situations. And I think it's about setting those boundaries, educating people. And I'll be honest, you educated me. When I set out to write this book, I had absolutely no idea that disability or impairment or accommodations were going to be a part of this. It was not that was not on my radar. It is, you know, thankfully, something I've never really had to deal with. And I didn't know it existed, you know, I didn't know that world was out there. So would I personally ever grab someone at a, you know, a stoplight? Dear God, no. But I'm sure I have probably, you know, glanced at somebody for a little bit longer than is comfortable for them. Because I did notice that they had something different. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Sheryl Green: And I certainly didn't mean anything by it, but I especially where I am right now, if someone said to me, hey, did you have a question, I would have been like, oh, man, I'm sorry. Dr. Kirk Adams: And and how about in Internal Boundaries? And I'm thinking about you said educate people. And oftentimes we feel like we're being asked to educate people all day long. Yeah. And you know, I think about, you know, picking your battles, you know, when I'm my wife and I are heading out to on vacation, we're in the airport all happy, ready to go to Maui. And you know, the TSA person says, can I see his ID? And I say, oh, you need my ID? Here it is. Yeah. Am I going to pause and educate that person? I'm probably going to make a decision, you know, not not not to do that. Right. If I'm in a restaurant and the way, you know, the server comes up and ask my wife, what would he like? Yeah. You know, I'll probably say, well I'm, I'm visually impaired, but I, I can hear and I can speak. Sheryl Green: I'd like to be spoken to directly. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And she she she I love her so much. We've been married 40 years. She often says very brightly. Doctor Adams can would like to would prefer to speak for himself. So but you know, microaggressions. Sheryl Green: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: We have a there's a wonderful blind woman named Chancey Fleet. She works at the Andrew Heiskell Talking Book and Braille Library in New York City. And she once posted on Facebook some something that had happened to her during the day and she said, if I want microaggressions, I'll go to the airport. That's how I was stuck. Stuck with me. But So. Boundaries aren't always set. Again, just thinking out loud. They're not always set through interactions with other people. So there are boundaries that you set for yourself internally, I imagine. Yes. That, that that need to be considered like just you're like, I just said my decision. No, I'm not going to. I'm not going to. There's a thing called spoon theory that comes from chronic illness. Sheryl Green: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: Like you wake up in the morning with eight spoons of energy and I've got four left, and I'm not going to spend one spoon on educating this, this TSA person. Yes, I choose, I choose to keep that spoon in reserve. So just any thoughts around that kind of. Sheryl Green: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: That kind of dynamic. Sheryl Green: There is very much internal boundaries. And there I really think every person whether you've got an impairment or not, needs to make that decision of what am I going to allow to bother me? Sheryl Green: And I actually I just finished reading let them by Mel Robbins and I, it's, it's so simple. It's infuriating kind of thing. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheryl Green: And you know, I when we put it in that situation, it's I'm going to mildly curse here. Let the TSA agent be a dumbass. Sheryl Green: And let you not allow that to ruin your day. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheryl Green: You know, I it's it's easier said than done. But you know, we each make a decision whether or not we want to walk around angry our entire lives. And that is, that falls under emotional boundaries. Right. We don't. We don't have the power to make anybody angry or sad or happy or whatever, and vice versa. They don't have that power over us. They can trigger us for sure, but ultimately it's up to us to decide, hey, what's what's the emotion that I want to sit in right now? And you, I mean, you have every, every right to let that TSA agent ruin your flight and your entire vacation. Or you can just go, dumbass. And, you know, well, don't call them that, because you'll get thrown out of the airport. But, you know, you you have that option to say it and then just let it go. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So I'm imagining of the seven categories, the emotional boundary may be the most challenging. Sheryl Green: You know, I find emotional and time. Right. Time is, I think, usually the one that most people are aware of having a problem with. And just today, as you said, you agreed to be on a board. Yeah. So, you know, what's what's the time commitment that you just made? And I, you know, I'm not going to ask, like, whether, you know, you thought through that or whatever, but we we too often, I think I call it. Yes, vomiting, which is disgusting. Sorry. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Tell me more. Sheryl Green: But for for anybody who's ever been asked something and you're like, hey, would you mind? And you're like, yeah, sure, I can do that. And do you want me to do this other thing as well? You know, like that that. Yes, I'll do it comes flying out of our mouths before before we we can think about it. And I think for the most part, that applies to the time boundaries. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheryl Green: Okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well this time flew by. I I love getting your newsletter, I always pause, it's always helps me to center my thinking around, and I'm thinking about energy and using my energy wisely and the myriad pathways before me and the myriad demands on time and energy and emotion. And you, you've really been helpful to me in that. So for for others who are listening, how how can they access your wisdom? What's a good way to connect to get the book to sign up for the newsletter? Sheryl Green: Oh, I love that. Access my wisdom. I'm going to be using that later and it's going to piss my husband off. They're just accessing my wisdom. So kind of my hub is https://SherylGreenSpeaks.com. It's S H E R Y L Green Speaks.com. And you can get a I've got two things to download on there, both of which will put you on my newsletter. One is for leaders, for a professional setting, and the other one is just a how to say no cheat sheet. It's just to. Dr. Kirk Adams: Have. Sheryl Green: That those words. And I've, I've heard good things. People have it laminated and on their, on their wall. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Yeah. Sheryl Green: And then my book is available on Amazon. Again, it's, "You Had Me At No". And I do speaking engagements. I do consulting for for businesses. And I would just, like I said, I'd love to help make the world a better place. One boundary at a time. Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice. And you've you've taught me a lot. I continue to learn from you. I appreciate it. I like to I love the fact that you said you've learned some things from me. So that's that's that's how we all work together. Sheryl Green: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: And have collective action on making the world a better place. So for me, if you'd like to get in touch on LinkedIn every day I'm @KirkAdamsPhD, on LinkedIn. I have a website, https://drkirkadams.com. I have a newsletter and I would love to connect with any anyone out there who wants to talk about making the world more inclusive and empathetic place. So thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We'll see you next time. Thank you Sheryl. Sheryl Green: Thank you. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.DrKirkAdams.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Samuel Levine, Professor of Law & Director, Jewish Law Institute, Touro Law Center https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-02-03-2026/ In this thought-provoking episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk sits down with Professor Samuel J. Levine, law professor at Touro Law Center, Director of the Jewish Law Institute, and founder of Touro's Disability Rights and Inclusion Project, to explore why advancing disability inclusion requires more than "laws on the books." Levine shares how his work blends legal analysis with broader cultural and human elements, compassion, storytelling, religion, the arts, and lived experience, because, as he and Kirk discuss, you can't "legislate compassion." Levine also describes the personal and scholarly path that led him to write Was Yosef on the Spectrum, viewing the biblical Joseph story through the lens of autism, and explains how community connections and shared purpose have helped the conference grow organically through relationships and advocacy. The conversation then turns to Levine's third annual Disability Rights and Inclusion Conference, happening March 12-13 at Touro Law Center in Central Islip (Long Island), with both in-person and free online options. Levine previews major highlights, including keynote speakers John Elder Robison (Look Me in the Eye) and Justice Richard Bernstein of the Michigan Supreme Court, and he emphasizes the conference's welcoming, solutions-focused tone. Kirk and Levine also dig into practical advocacy, especially in education, underscoring that families should know their rights (like IEP/FAPE protections) and seek experienced support when schools or employers try to "avoid" their legal obligations. Levine closes by inviting listeners to register through the Touro conference page (search "Touro Disability Rights and Inclusion") and to connect with him via email or LinkedIn, while Kirk shares his plan to participate virtually. TRANSCRIPT: ADVERTISEMENT: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. ADVERTISEMENT: I can't see it. ADVERTISEMENT: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello again, everybody, and welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have a guest that I connected with via LinkedIn as Professor Samuel Levine, a professor of law and a director of the Jewish Law Institute at the Touro Law Center, and he is founder of the Disability Rights and Inclusion Conference, the third annual conference coming up March 12th and 13th. We're going to be talking a lot about that. Welcome, Samuel. Samuel J. Levine: Thank you so much, Kirk. It's great to be here. Dr. Kirk Adams: For those of you tuning in for the first time, just very briefly Doctor Kirk Adams, as I said immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind AFB, which was Helen Keller's organization prior to that, privileged to have the same leadership roles at the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle. I am a blind person. My retina is detached. When I was five years old in kindergarten, went to Oregon State School for the blind and got my my braille skills and my strong internal locus of control, and then on to public school and fourth grade on through into some banking and finance experience and then into the nonprofit sector. Currently my consulting practice, Innovative Impact LLC, focuses on fun, innovative, high impact projects that will accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities with a particular focus on employment. So I'm happy to welcome Professor Levine today. Disability rights and inclusion, near and dear to my heart. And from the aspects of of the law, the legal aspects of super interesting and something I don't know enough about. So we'd love to hear from you, Professor Levine, about the genesis of the A conference and your your background and what what motivates you and energizes you around disability rights and inclusion. Then, of course, we'd love to hear what's coming up on March 12th and 13th. Samuel J. Levine: Okay. Thanks so much. Thank you for that question. Thank you for the opportunity for me to share this information. And as importantly, Kirk, thank you. It's an honor for me to be able to contribute to your work, your important work, and your leadership in this area. So my day job, as I sometimes call it, is I'm a law professor, as you mentioned, at Touro Law Center. T o r o that's the law school of Touro University. The New York the law center is actually located in or on Long Island. And I teach criminal law, I teach ethics, I teach Jewish law as part of my work as director of the Jewish Law Institute, which compares Jewish law and American law now a number of years ago, based on and drawing from my own personal interests, my own personal connections, experiences in the areas of disability, personal and professional work I've done in the area. I wrote a book called Was Yosef on the Spectrum Viewing the biblical story of Joseph in Genesis, son of Jacob through the lens of autism. And with that, I also launched the Disability Rights and Inclusion Project at Touro at the law school. And the project is dedicated to promoting disability rights awareness, acceptance and inclusion. Over the first few years of the program, we had webinars we had in-person events, we had workshops, we produced some scholarly publications. And just a couple of years ago, we decided to host our first conference on this topic. Samuel J. Levine: The first conference, which we referred to as Disability rights and inclusion. Colon, a multidisciplinary conference. And the reason it's so important to me to emphasize that multidisciplinary nature of our work. Goes to your point about the law. Because the law. I'm a law professor. I was a prosecutor. I know the importance of the law. I know the potential of the law. But as lawyers, we are particularly sensitive to the limits of the law. And it's my philosophy that if we're truly going to promote disability rights and inclusion, that topic near and dear to your heart and your leadership, your groundbreaking work in this area as you know, we have to go beyond the law because there's only so much our legal system can accomplish. You can have laws on the books, you can have the Ada you can have when it comes to education idea, All kinds of statutes, all kinds of rules. But the reality is that in order to implement the law beyond what's on the books, you have to advocate. You have to bring the lawsuits, you have to pass legislation, but you also have to affect those changes in society. And so the multidisciplinary nature of our project and of our conferences incorporates a variety of disciplines, a variety of perspectives, speakers who tell their own stories, which are so important to get out there to help our audience understand what we're talking about in terms of disability rights and inclusion. Last year. Dr. Kirk Adams: I've done a lot of public policy work in my day, and the a phrase just rang into my mind that I heard somewhere, somewhere in the hall, those marble halls of the congressional buildings is you can't legislate compassion. So I'm just curious and you can get to it whenever, whenever it fits, but that you, you talked about your role in examining aspects of American law and Jewish law, and I'm just wondering about things like compassion and care. And when you talk about the multidisciplinary aspect of the conference and the different perspectives and voices, in addition to thoughts and scholars looking at things from a legal standpoint, what are some of the other viewpoints and voices that you bring into the conference? Samuel J. Levine: Great question and great point. Great quotation, by the way. I don't know if that was something you coined or you heard around. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, I heard it somewhere. I borrowed it. Samuel J. Levine: So. So I'd like to borrow it from you or from me either. I think it's I think it is so important. And that's something that to me speaks to the importance of bringing in, whether it's humanities, whether it's religion. We have speakers talking about society, cultural concepts and those do all go to this broader societal attitude and the compassion that the law, you know, it requires that people do things. But unfortunately, I think this is just, I guess, human nature. Sometimes the law imposes duties, for example, not to discriminate, which should be an obvious reality to us. But the way people are, it's not so obvious. And if people follow the law, sometimes they resent it. They'll do it if need be or if they're forced to do so. And it sounds very much along the lines of that quote that you took from from DC that you can't force people to really care. You can force them to do something, but if they resent it, and we all know this from our different areas of life. If you're a parent, if you're a teacher, whatever area you've experienced, you know that if someone resents the rules that you impose on them, it might actually backfire to some degree, and they'll do everything they can to get around it. Samuel J. Levine: And I think we see this when it comes to civil rights, one of which is disability rights. We see employers. We see schools trying their best to avoid the question, trying their best to avoid not they won't defy the law, but they'll just avoid the law because they'll find a way out. So I think you're exactly right. And that's why it is so important to have speakers. We have some speakers who come from the arts. We have speakers who are musicians, speakers who are involved in Filmmaking. And some of those speakers are just as effective and just as important, if not more important for our audience because their story really speaks to people's hearts, even more so than the legal analysis, which again, I don't want to in any way belittle the necessity of the law. But we do have to continue incorporating these different voices. And that's why. Dr. Kirk Adams: How did you how did you identify those other voices to bring into the mix, I assume as a law professor and a lawyer and a former prosecutor, you know, lots of people who can bring the legal thinking to the mix. But how did how did how did you identify artists and musicians and filmmakers that care about these, that care about disability rights and inclusion? Samuel J. Levine: That's another great question. And what I have found and you've been doing this much longer than I have, so I imagine you're familiar with this. I hope you've had the same experience. I have found that over the years since I launched this Disability rights and inclusion project, and the years before that, when I was personally involved advocating for disability rights and inclusion. The disability community, if we would call it that, is very cohesive community. I mean, every community has got its infighting and it's, you know, bickering and disagreements. But I have found it to be a community where people want to share, where people want to make connections, help you make connections. And it kind of grew organically for me, where I met one person and they said, you've really got to speak to this other people. I think you and I kind of connected in that way. It was maybe through LinkedIn directly, but it was really a result of my meeting people, often on LinkedIn or other forms of social media, or in person or email. And over the years I had connected with so many really impressive and I mean impressive in every way, their personal accomplishments, but more importantly to me, impressive in terms of what you described, their compassion, their kindness, their dedication. So those are the type of speakers I really look for for my conference. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I'm curious, you mentioned before the Disability Rights Inclusion Project. I think you just said said something along the lines of your, your disability advocacy work prior to that. And then what what led you to consider whether Joseph was on the spectrum or not? What what led you to think about that and to be curious about that as a scholar? And what what what came first? The the the interest in Joseph or the interest in disability? Or were they simultaneous? Samuel J. Levine: I'm so. Dr. Kirk Adams: Curious. Samuel J. Levine: What was first, I think, was the curiosity about the story. I do have a rabbinic background as well. And and prior to that, even growing up, I had heard the story, like many of us. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah. Thrown into the pit. Samuel J. Levine: Right to the pit. Dr. Kirk Adams: Coat of many colors. Samuel J. Levine: Yeah, exactly. And it's the Broadway play. It's, you know, since they've had the Dreamworks animation. Yeah. Famous book by Thomas Mann. It's just it's a story that does jump out at you. And from a scholarly perspective, it's a story that I always found fascinating and puzzling, because this figure of Joseph has so many talents, has so many skills, and yet seems to have so many challenges, or other people have challenges with him on an interpersonal kind of social level. He gets thrown into the pit. It's the wrong thing to do. But we see what it was that bothered his brothers. Not that it justified it by any means what they did, but we could see that disconnect between him and his brothers and him and his father, who loved him, gave him that coat, and that was also a problem. So. And he eventually he goes to Egypt after being taken out of the pit. And he has all those experiences there, the highs and the lows, the success and the challenges. And I had so many questions. I've studied in great detail the commentators, the midrashim, thousands of years of discussions of what's going on in this story. And at one point during my focus on disabilities, and particularly my focus on autism, an area of particular interest to me, I had that moment where the light bulb went off and I said, oh, I think I get it. I think I see because I know people who have this interesting combination, sometimes called a spiky profile, where they have these particular skills, these particular talents, and at the same time intermingled with that and almost inextricably linked. They have these challenges when it comes to socially getting along with others or other people, understanding what they're getting at. And then I read the story again, and it really fits very well the text. It fits many of the commentators over the years, many of the midrashim that are glosses on the story. And I decided to write the book. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. I'm going to for myself and people not familiar with the Jewish faith, the midrashim is what. Samuel J. Levine: So a midrash is the oral traditions that kind of flesh out the story. Because the biblical text is often very terse. It'll tell a whole story with a few verses. So the question is, what was going on? Sort of behind the scenes or in between the lines. And the Midrash will often fill in some of those details. Dr. Kirk Adams: So those are written texts. Samuel J. Levine: So those are texts in of themselves initially. Oral traditions. And ultimately they were compiled as texts. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. And and what what brought you to your interest in autism? Samuel J. Levine: So that comes from both personal and professional experiences, knowing a lot of people and working with people on the autism spectrum. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, so let's turn toward March 12th and 13th a little bit. So if a person is intrigued and motivated and wants to spend time with a group of wonderful people who care about disability rights and inclusion and bring a lot of different perspectives first of all, how how do people access the conference. How do people register, sign up, learn more. And once they do what what, what can people expect? Samuel J. Levine: Absolutely. So we have a conference page on our website. Toro is the name of the school, Touro Law Center. There's a page. If you Google Touro Disability Rights and Inclusion, you'll probably reach either the project and or the conference page, and the conference page has the registration link as well as the schedule for the speakers. The conference itself, there's a modest fee for in-person participation. So for the full two days, well, full Thursday and Friday until the 13th is until 230. That includes meals, breakfast, lunch, dinner on Thursday, breakfast and lunch on Friday in person at Touro Law School in Central Islip, Long Island. It also includes for lawyers out there up to a total of 13.5 CE credits. And if you're not a lawyer, you probably don't know what that means. If you are a lawyer, you might be really interested because CLE is continuing legal education and lawyers have obligations if they want to keep their license to practice, which we all do to engage in continuing legal education beyond our graduating law school. So 13.5 credits is a big chunk, at least of what's required. So to me, it's a great way to get those CLE credits. You can imagine different ways of doing it. You can go online and watch programs and sit there and click ahead, or you can do something very meaningful. And to me, this is of course, a very meaningful there is also an online registration option, online viewing. And there's no fee for that. So if you're not able to make it out to Central Islip and this is, open to anyone, anywhere. We have viewers throughout the world who are going to be participating. And you can just log on and sign up for free. Dr. Kirk Adams: Why don't you just give us maybe 3 or 4 of the speakers just who they are and briefly, a little bit about them, just to whet the appetite, people. Samuel J. Levine: Absolutely. Thank you. It's hard to pick any because, as you mentioned, they are also wonderful. We have a couple of keynote addresses, so maybe I'll start with them. Sure. Lunch keynote on Thursday, March 12th is going to be John Elder Robison. And John Elder Robison is a wonderful and remarkable individual. He wrote a book called Look Me in the eye. It was a New York Times best seller. And a couple of decades ago by now it was one of the first really a groundbreaking book describing from a first person perspective his experiences growing up on the autism spectrum, growing up and the challenges he faced and the successes that he was able to accomplish, among others. And he accomplished. He continues to accomplish so much. One of the most interesting, I think, to most readers is that he ended up he's a musician. He's a technician. He ended up working with the band kiss. Oh, and he was the one who designed the pyrotechnics for Ace Frehley's guitar. Wow. The late, recently, you know, late Ace Frehley. So John was the one who designed that. He ended up working with on nuclear submarines. Samuel J. Levine: All kinds of. Wow. Fascinating. He does autism policy. And his book to me was such an important event because to this day, I think a lot of people are not familiar with autism. And if you're not familiar with the disability, then unfortunately again, this might be human nature or an unfortunate side of human nature. If there's something we're not familiar with, we are sometimes scared of it. We sometimes Or worse. So by writing the New York Times bestseller, An Entertaining book, a fascinating book, it did allow a lot of people to understand and look me in the eye. That title, drawn from the instruction or reprimand that many individuals on the autism spectrum receive, that they're not looking in the eyes of the speaker. You know, look at me. If you and you know what a rude thing to say to someone, I'm sure you've heard all kinds of rude comments, unfortunately. Yeah. Yourself And I think he he was it was a well chosen title for that reason. So he's going to give the keynote speech and he's always. Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm, I'm downloading the braille ready file from Bookshare onto Braille sense right now. So I will be reading it soon. Samuel J. Levine: Yeah, I hope you. I imagine you want to. I expect you will. He's always entertaining, always has something creative to say. And, you know, true to his talents and being on the autism spectrum often has a different way of seeing things that many of us haven't thought of yet and an intriguing way of seeing things. Our Friday lunch keynote speaker is going to be Justice Richard Bernstein. And I wonder if you might be familiar with Justice Bernstein. He is blind by reputation. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. I don't know him personally, but certainly. Samuel J. Levine: He and he's on the Michigan Supreme Court. Another just wonderful and fascinating individual. He runs marathons. You know, he speaks all around the country. And. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I gotta ask you, what's what's with all these blind people running marathons? Another blind person I know is running marathons. Samuel J. Levine: And that doesn't include you, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: It does not. Now, I did run cross country in high school. That was long ago. Samuel J. Levine: That's pretty good. Yeah. I'm not sure what to tell you, but I'm not a marathon runner. So I'm with you on that one. So, you know, as I mentioned, accomplished people and kind wonderful, interesting people. And we try to have our keynotes be along those lines of both substantive and entertaining and the conference as a whole, you know, the speakers are all of the above. We really it's an experience. And you're asking about what our audience will experience if they are able. Anyone who's able to attend in person. It is a special experience to be there in person. One of my. Dr. Kirk Adams: I can imagine you'll if you're able to go in person, you're going to meet a lot of heart centered compassionate, proactive people committed to what it says disability rights and inclusion. So a lot of advocacy. So sounds sounds like a lot of people we would all like to know. Samuel J. Levine: And just on that note, you know, one of my colleagues at the law school after our first conference that initial multidisciplinary conference, by the way, the second conference, we had the subtitle of Expanding the Conversation, because we really did that was last year's conference. We did expand both the scope and the breadth of the discussions. And then this year we just calling it third annual. But after that first conference, one of my colleagues said to me, you know, that's the most positive law school conference I ever attended. You know, and on the one hand, Yale Law School conferences can be a bit on the cantankerous side, you know. Officers aren't always. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Right. Right. Samuel J. Levine: But and but I think what's important for him to recognize. And I made this point to him. It's not that everyone agrees because, you know, we referred before to the infighting and there's without calling it infighting, there are disagreements. That's that's the way it is. And that's great. We can have different points of view, but everyone there is dedicated to moving things forward, and no one is there to pick on someone else or to belittle someone else's perspective. They may disagree, they may ask challenging questions. And that constructive criticism is great. But it's never intended as negative criticism. And I think that that's a really important aspect. And I think that helps create that atmosphere that we all walk away. And at this point, there's we've developed this sense of community. At the conference, some of the speakers return, some of the audience returns, and you really do get to know each other. The online experience is not quite the same, but by so many of our online audience that they've also appreciated. We do try as best as we can. We take questions from the online audience that they can send in. And as we're doing the Q&A, we start with some of the people in the room. But we always check the questions online and if we're able to, we read those out to the speakers as well. Dr. Kirk Adams: Great. So if I could ask you to put your law professor hat on for the few few minutes. So for those of us who are passionate about disability rights and inclusion and advocacy, but we're not immersed in the details of the law, the court system, the the policies that frame legal activities around disability. What? What should we be aware of? What are there things we should be really cognizant of paying close attention to in these times? Are there areas that we should be putting on our advocate advocacy list is what what what's what in the landscape should we be thinking about? Samuel J. Levine: I think the first thing to know is that there are rights out there. And unfortunately, tragically it's not uncommon that it's the people who are responsible for recognizing those rights who I alluded to before try to avoid it. And that happens very often at the school level, the education level. That's actually the area of advocacy that I've been myself personally most involved in. And as it turns out, Turoe actually has a special education advocacy clinic where our students are trained to work in that area. And it's an area that, for better or for worse, it's kind of unfortunate, but it's a growing field because there are so many schools that don't live up to their obligations under the law to provide a free and appropriate public education. No more, no less. That's the law. That's the statute. That's federal law. Every school has to comply with it. And yet we just have so many endless stories of students who aren't being provided those rights. And the reason that schools get away with it is typically because the parents don't know their rights. Kids aren't going to know their rights. How would they? But the parents don't even know their rights. And if they do, if they try to assert those rights, the school is not too strong a word to say that the school lies to them. And this isn't every school, this isn't all the time. Samuel J. Levine: But it's a that's a story that we hear over and over and over again, where the school just denies that this is something that they're required to do. So what's a parent to do when they're in that situation? And my answer is and my advice is my strong advice is that there are lawyers out there. There are special ed attorneys out there who are experts in this field. And it doesn't mean you're going to win. Lawyers can never guarantee that to you. But it does mean that they're familiar with how it works. And I can tell you this is true of any area of law. If you have a lawyer on your side, then it changes the entire playing field. Now, the adversary, whoever that may be, whether it's a school in this situation. But, you know, anytime if you're asserting your own rights, they might think they can take advantage of you. They might have their own lawyers try to take advantage. If you've got a lawyer on your side who can counter what they're saying and point to the statute and point to the provision that they're not following. That changes everything. All of a sudden they take you much more seriously. Yeah, they're often going to settle instead of intimidating you into not going any further. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I'd like to dig into that maybe a little bit. So the you know, the IEP, the individual education plan that students with disabilities are entitled to, which lays out the responsibilities of the educational institution, the school, the school district to to provide that student with with what they're entitled to. So important. It's a key, key element. And, you know, the the school may not outright deny, but they certainly may, you know, brails the thing for me. So I was totally blind as a first grader. There was no question I needed to learn how to read Braille. But there are kids who have some usable vision. And oftentimes schools dissuade parents from asking that Braille instruction be included because it's, you know, it's expensive, it's complicated, and it takes time and effort and individual instruction. And they may be told, well, you know, they can use magnification, they can use audio. But as one example, you know, a parent, my parents when I my retinas. Yeah. They had never met a blind person before. They were in their mid 20s. You know, I was a kindergarten student at a public school. They were told, you can't you can't come back here just to go to the state school for the blind children, which which, you know, pros and cons, but that that's what happened. But parents don't necessarily know what's available. What's best for their child? Not every family has the wherewithal to research and advocate and get prepared for that type of thing. Are there resources prior to contacting attorney that that you would recommend? Samuel J. Levine: Well, nowadays, you know, some of the benefits of our online universe is there are all kinds of resources out there. So yeah, you can find IEP. We actually have on our website, we have a wonderful presentation. It was directed toward the private school system, but we did record the presentation. About IEP advice. And obviously ours is not by any means the only resource out there. So I do recommend for parents to check online first so you can get what's out there. But to your point, you're exactly right about the challenges to having an IEP a designed properly. And then we're going through the same procedure that we talked about with the law. You can have a law on the books. You can even have an IEP that's designed very well. It can even say okay, this student will receive instruction in Braille five days a week. What happens when the school doesn't comply with the IEP that you've agreed to, that they've agreed to that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Samuel J. Levine: Worked out with them. And it has to be agreed to, by the way, from both parents and school. You sign off of it on a as a parent. So it's not as if it's the school designed it and then you're stuck with whatever they say. You have to come to an agreement and it's your right to say, I disagree with your conclusion, and I'm going to take you to due process, and you have to prove to me that this plan is actually meeting your legal obligation to provide fape the free and appropriate public education with all that entails. And if you can't, and as you mentioned, there's pros and cons, but if you can't, then you have to find a setting that can provide it. The ideal that our system promotes and this is complicated. But we do have a general approach to educate a student in what's called the least restrictive environment. Samuel J. Levine: So if a student can be mainstreamed, if a student can remain within the general student population and receive the appropriate services, that's usually considered the best outcome, the better policy, because that way the student does find a way to integrate into as they should be included into the general society. If the students challenges cannot be met, if the school is unable and it it you mentioned the money and that's not an acceptable reason not to provide fape. It's not an acceptable reason to not follow the law. You know, we don't have the resources. We don't have the money. And you're exactly right there to that. Well, you know, this type of instruction is kind of expensive. So how about if we just do it another way? Well, if that other way is not meeting the students needs, the answer is no. We're going to do it the right way because you're going to educate the student the way they are supposed to be educated under your legal obligations. And I just want to emphasize, for parents out there, for individuals, you know, the other setting, which I'm not as experienced in directly in my Involvement in advocacy, but I'm very, very familiar with more generally is the employment setting. And there are, of course, anti-discrimination laws under the Ada when it comes to employment. It's important for parents who are helping their children. It's important for individuals who are helping other individuals and for individuals themselves. If you like the term self-advocate or not, some people do, some people don't. But if you're advocating for yourself, it's important to understand your mindset as not asking for favors, not asking for the school to do something that they shouldn't have to do to bend over backwards for you. Samuel J. Levine: And that's something else that school officials are unfortunately often very good at and making it sound like, well, we're already doing this. So are you really asking us to do that too? And the answer has to be, that's exactly what I'm asking. And that's exactly what I'm telling you to do, because that's what you have to do. I mean, just imagine anyone else doing their job and saying, oh, come on. You want me to submit this report? And you also want me to do the other report? I did one of them. Isn't that enough for you? So I think it's important to have that mindset that this is something that these schools and the employers and society as a whole. I just had a long talk about accessibility with someone who works in the field, and they're just stunned by how often they go into a setting and they see what's allegedly the accessibility plan. And they look at it, and they've been through this enough times to take one look and say, this is nowhere near what you need to do under the law. And the response is often, oh, come on, do you really think we have to go that far? The bathroom's pretty good. You know, the schools are kind of, you know, they're pretty much work. This ramp is, you know, you didn't have the bar where you thought, and you know, she's stunned by that response. But on the other hand, she's also used to it by now. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So we've we've we've come a long way and we've got a long way to go collective actions, the way to get things done. So Disability Rights and Inclusion Conference, March 12th 13th at Touro University in Central Islip. Do I have that right? Samuel J. Levine: That's exactly right. The law school is Central Islip. The main university actually is set in in Times Square. Three times square is this wonderful, pretty new building. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's a that's a pastoral setting. So yeah. Tell people one more time how to get in touch with the conference and with you. Samuel J. Levine: So feel free to reach out to me directly. The best way to reach me is my email. That's SLevine8, S L E V as in Victor I N E, followed by the number eight. All one word. I guess there are seven other SLevines at Touro. @. And then it's just the Touro.edu. T O U R O . EDU. [email protected]. You can feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I find that to be a very convenient way to reach out to people. So Samuel Levine Touro law professor, you can find me there pretty easily. Facebook as well. And on the Touro Law Center website, if you Google Touro Law Center disability you'll find the conference page pretty quickly. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful. And if people want to get in touch with me to talk about any or all topics related to disability rights and inclusion, happy to talk with you. LinkedIn is great for me. Also, KirkAdamsPhD on LinkedIn. I also have a website, https://DrKirkAdams.com, have a newsletter you can sign up for. My email address is there, and I'll be taking advantage of the virtual option to participate in the Disability Rights and Inclusion Conference March 12th and 13th. Thank you so much, Professor Levine. I learned a lot. I took a lot of notes. I downloaded a new book. And I just really appreciate your time and your your wisdom. And for those of you listening, we'll catch you next time on podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.DrKirkAdams.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with John B. Grimes, Survivor Inspiring Resilience, Author, Destiny is Debatable https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-01-29-2026/ In this candid episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams talks with John B. Grimes about the life-altering night in 1998 when, as a 19-year-old Texas Tech student, Grimes contracted meningococcal disease and woke up in the hospital days later blind, disoriented, and relearning basic functions, walking, talking, swallowing, while also navigating lasting neurological impacts. Grimes explains why he once called himself "ambiguously blind," describes the role the Texas Commission for the Blind played in reopening his world (from accessible coursework to practical support), and reflects on the fear and grief he initially resisted, until later counseling helped him begin processing the change. The conversation also centers on Grimes' forthcoming memoir, Destiny Is Debatable, releasing February 7, 2026, chosen to mark the anniversary of the day he entered the hospital, and the core message behind the title: that life's trajectory isn't fixed, and waiting rarely makes hard things easier. He shares how he built a career in the family insurance business (and how remote work became a major accessibility advantage), sprinkles in a few "college-kid" stories, and looks ahead to deeper work in meningitis advocacy, including the foundation he helped launch, Shots for Meningitis. Dr. Adams closes by encouraging listeners to connect, follow Grimes online, and pick up the book. TRANSCRIPT: Advertisement: This podcast brought to you by Pneuma Solutions. Advertisement: I can't see it. Advertisement: ADA Title II has a real compliance deadline. April 2026. Public entities are required to make their digital content accessible, including websites, PDFs, reports, applications, and public records. If a document cannot be read with a screen reader, it is not compliant and if it is not compliant, blind people are still being denied equal access. For a clear explanation of what the rule requires, visit www.title2.info. It's one of the leading resources explaining what agencies must do and when. This message is brought to you by Pneuma Solutions, we have remediated hundreds of thousands of pages in days, not months or years, aligned with WCAG 2 AA guidelines at a fraction of traditional costs. Accessibility isn't a privilege, it's a right. Now that you know, ask your agencies a simple question, are your documents actually accessible? Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have the pleasure of talking with a person I've gotten to know fairly well from a distance and very very inspired by by what he's doing with, with his life. And I'd like to welcome John B Grimes. He is the author of the forthcoming memoir Destiny Is debatable. Coming out soon and available. Available to all of you very soon. And, John, welcome. John B. Grimes: Howdy. Kirk. Great to be here. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Is that the Texas? The howdy. John B. Grimes: That's it. You got it. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good, good. Well John B. Grimes: Well, my wife's an Aggie, so that kind of. Oh, yeah, I guess it. That's what they say. Whether right or wrong, I just kind of adopted it as my own. I'm not an Aggie myself, so. Well, you can hold all the jokes back, but. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, well, we talked about that because my wife grew up in a tiny town named Caldwell, Texas, that if you're driving from Austin to College Station drive through it. And we were there for Thanksgiving and we stayed at we stayed in College Station. So we got a lot a lot of Aggie vibe there around Thanksgiving time. John B. Grimes: Oh boy. There's a lot of Aggie vibe down there. Yeah. It's strong, it's strong. Dr. Kirk Adams: It is. So for those of you who don't know me, just very briefly again, I'm Kirk Adams. I'm the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind AFB, which was Helen Keller's organization. And I did get to go sit at her desk whenever I needed inspiration. When we moved to New York and worked in those offices. And prior to that, I was the president and CEO of the Lighthouse for the blind, Inc. here in Seattle, which employs many hundreds of blind and deaf blind people in businesses, including aerospace manufacturing for all the Boeing Boeing aircraft. So very interesting organization for the last three and a half years, I have been operating under Innovative Impact LLC as Managing Director. It's a consulting practice that focuses on disability inclusion, primarily in employment and helping nonprofits serving people who are blind to scale. And in advising start up companies in the disability inclusion space. So I get to do whatever I want to do, whatever I think will will be interesting and impactful and help people. And through the course of the last three and a half years, I was connected with John. He mentioned that he was thinking about writing a book. And then he told me he had begun writing the book. Dr. Kirk Adams: And he said he's planning to launch the book. So destiny is debatable. It's the title. And John would just love to hear about your journey as a as a person person with a visual impairment. And what? What? What year? Everyone. All of our all of our pathways are different. You know, my my retina is detached. When I was five years old in kindergarten, and I became totally blind overnight. And, you know, there was no question I needed to learn Braille and learn to use a cane and type on a typewriter so I could go into public school when I was ready, which I did it and did it in fourth grade. And you know, some of us are totally blind. Some of us have different visual conditions. Some many of us have changing visual conditions. So I'd love to hear about that journey. And what led you, what inspired you to put in the time and effort to write the book? And then, of course, we'd love to hear about the book and then any thoughts you have on, on on a future state for John B Grimes. Where are you headed? So microphone is yours. John B. Grimes: Wow. Those are all great questions. So we did. Our paths crossed several years ago. And you were on my podcast, actually, which which at the time was called Ambiguously Blind, which I thought of as you were. You were talking there because you say all of our paths are different, and sight can be so different for so many people. And that's why I call myself ambiguously blind, because it's really unclear. And just even the name is kind of confusing, which is intentional because sight can be confusing, particularly sight loss. You know, in my experience, I'm sure you well, you have more experience than I do. But in my my experience personally, I just thought, you know, if you're blind, you're Stevie Wonder. If you're not, then you get glasses. And there really wasn't anything in between. But I found myself in between. Kirk. So the my my path to sight loss was overnight as well. Basically. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. John B. Grimes: In 1998, I was a 19 year old sophomore student. I went to Texas Tech University. Actually, just a little north and west of Texas A&M. And I was, like most 19 year olds, felt like I was ten feet tall and bulletproof. You know, nothing could stop me. I was living my best life, and I felt like I was getting the flu or something. And so I took some medicine and went to bed. Eight days later, I woke up in the hospital. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh. John B. Grimes: Blind disoriented and more than lucky to be alive. Miraculously my fraternity brother found me unconscious on the floor in my bedroom. Now, I'm definitely not the only guy that's got a story about being found unconscious by their fraternity brother during college. Right. But in my case, it was due to a nasty bout with what is known as meningococcal disease. Which is more commonly known as meningitis or bacterial meningitis. Yeah. And so it's been it's now been 28 years since. And in addition to sight loss. So I have I've lost all the sight in my right eye, so totally blind. And I have about 2300 in my left eye. Okay. Which it's not straight on. It's not, it's not a, there's not a it's not it's not stargardt's where it's out and in or in or out. Mine is again, hard to explain at all. So it's not straight on. It's not. It's hard to explain. It's not good. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I don't want to get into medical detail too much, but I, I don't know that I've talked to anyone other than yourself who has become visually impaired because of meningitis. And so it is a bacteria. So did it impact your retinas or your optic nerves or optic nerves? What was the optic nerves? John B. Grimes: Okay, so meningitis is the inflammation. Start over so we can sure cut that part out. Meningitis is the inflammation of the meninges and the meninges the lining of the brain cavity and spinal cavity. So our our spines and brains have a lining in them. And it gets infected. And there's more than one way it can become infected. In my case, it was bacterial. And not to get too much in the weeds of medicine here either. But there's five types of bacteria that can cause it. And I got one of those five. And it's an airborne thing where anybody really, at any time could be carrying the bacteria in the back of your throat or in your nasal passage, and it just happens. You're at the right place at the right time for that, that to seep into your into the spinal cavity. And it does some pretty serious things. And so obviously, the brain is where all the control center is for your, you know, what your brain tells your body everything you need to do. And then your spine is all the wiring, essentially, for the nerves that fire the signals your brain gives your body. Right. So in addition to the sight loss. So my optic nerves were damaged and their brain cells that don't regenerate themselves. Okay. As a result of the swelling in my body, essentially, the blood flow was cut off to the optic nerves. And so apparently the right side of my brain had more swelling or than my left, I guess, is kind of the way to say it, which is why my left eye was not as impacted. John B. Grimes: But throughout my body I have neurological dysfunction as well. Okay, so probably the. Easiest way to describe that as kind of as I said a minute ago, you're my my brain sends my body signals to do things, and my body doesn't respond to all of them because it the connection between my brain and what it's trying to do is disconnected. And so the my, my disabilities are all pretty much invisible. I don't use a cane. I don't use a guide dog. I can see just enough to be dangerous. Curt. Okay. I don't drive, right. But another example of the invisibility of my disabilities is a intermittent catheter. This is not a very fun conversation to talk to other parties, right? But the connection between my bladder and my brain is been disconnected as well. So the number 2190 is a number that I know. Because that's how many times I, I go potty at each year. Number one if you will. Because that's how many catheters I buy each year, so that's how I know that number. So things like that in my body have been disrupted. And meningitis is very fast acting. It does look like the flu quite often. So it's something that you got to be very aware of. And I had never heard of it until I woke up and they said. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So, so you you wake up 19 year old kid, college kid, fraternity brother student at Texas Tech. And so what do you do? John B. Grimes: Boy, that's a great question. So you said, what's the book about? Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. John B. Grimes: The book's pretty much about what I did. Okay. And there I mean, there's a lot of things I did, and one of the really cool things about writing the book was I was I went through a lot of those, you know, memories and things that have happened. Again, it was 28 years ago. The book does come out on February 7th, and the reason for the February 7th date is that's the date that I went to the hospital, actually. So February 7th, 1998 was the day I went to the hospital. So February 7th, 2026 will be the date that the book is released. And you know, it took me it took me a long. I'm still adapting. Just. Dr. Kirk Adams: Sure. John B. Grimes: Yeah, but there's a lot more adjustment. Dr. Kirk Adams: Going on, right? The environment is always changing, so we all have to continue adapting, right? John B. Grimes: But I one of the things I learned about myself in the writing process was just how unprepared for all of this I was. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Well. Well, why would you have been? Right. John B. Grimes: Yeah. Right. Yeah, I was again, I was 19, I was 19, I was, you know, 19 is not the age of reason. Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. John B. Grimes: I was invincible. And stubborn as all get out too. So you just add all that together and. Dr. Kirk Adams: So did you. Leave school and go back. Did you just figure out a way to keep on keeping on? Love I know you said it's all in the book, but if you could give us a little taste. John B. Grimes: Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did go back to school. So this happened in February when I went to the hospital and I left the hospital on February 28th. So I was there for 21 days. Yeah. And this was all in Lubbock, Texas, which is where Texas Tech is. And I'm from the Dallas area. I'm from Plano, Texas. And so I went back home to Plano with mom and dad, and from March through July of that year, that's when all of the super intense hard work happened for recovery. So lots of again, tons of things happened in there, which I write about. But it was the learning to walk. I mean, I didn't. Some of the other things that happened was I couldn't, I couldn't stand, I couldn't sit, I couldn't walk, I couldn't talk, I couldn't swallow, I couldn't see all these neurological things that had gotten damaged from the meningitis. About 80% of them were able to come back with therapy. Okay. And that's what I did for those 5 to 6 months there. And then I did return to school in August. I was determined to go back. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good for. John B. Grimes: You. So I went back in August and I dipped my toes in. Of course, I as I say, I didn't have any friends that were blind. You know, the only person I knew that was blind was Stevie Wonder. Right? I mentioned him already. I didn't really know him that well, but I liked his music. Yeah I didn't have any friends that used a catheter. You know I mentioned I was in a fraternity, so these were all things that didn't really jive with my Prior lifestyle that I was in, you know? So there was just a lot of adaptation. I, I started with a couple classes. For some reason, the first class I decided to take was English literature. When I went back. Dr. Kirk Adams: I. John B. Grimes: I say mercifully Paradise Lost wasn't available in Braille. Or audiobooks were really not that big of a thing back in 19. They're called audiotapes back then. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Did you did you use. I think it was still called recording for the Blind and Dyslexic back then. Did you? John B. Grimes: No, I don't know that that was available. If it was, I didn't. So I what I did, though, was I, I became acquainted with the Texas Commission for the blind. Dr. Kirk Adams: Sure, sure. John B. Grimes: And so that's where that's where everything started to get good. They it turns out they were they had an office right in the campus. In the library. So my counselor's name was Margaret Little. She was amazing. So I got to know Margaret really well. And so we did. I don't know about the recordings for the blind because maybe it was available, maybe it wasn't, but I didn't use it. They had stuff there locally on campus. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. John B. Grimes: And I had students like my friends or they had volunteers would do all that stuff and and put them on cassette tapes and things. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. John B. Grimes: So, yeah, I, I opened up a whole new world of things that I had no idea even existed. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And ultimately. John B. Grimes: Finished in I was on the it turns out I was on the five year plan. Sure. Ultimately, I didn't quite make the PhD like you did, but I did get my bachelor's degree, and eventually made it out, but I, I learned a lot of things in college. You know. Dr. Kirk Adams: I started my PhD in 2010 and finished in 2019, so. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: I yeah, there was there was a little, a few, few leaving the lighthouse, going to work at AFB. Moving to New York, moving to D.C., all that happened. So I was on the nine year plan. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, don't don't feel bad about wrapping up a bachelor's degree in five. It's pretty, pretty impressive. So, you know, personally, psychologically, socially, I mean, I, you know, I became blind when I was five and things were pretty much cooking along until I became a teenager. And then you know, the normal angst of, of those years. And then I lived in little towns where when people turn 16, they all got driver's licenses and all and all got some sort of sort of job. So I didn't get either of those things. So I had a lot of isolation. I, I think that's really when the grief cycle grabbed me in those teen years. But I'm just wondering if for you, I, I didn't, didn't, wasn't offered any. Counseling or therapy. Psychological professional support. Sort that much, much later in life to deal with some things. But I mean, how how how did you feel about all this stuff? John B. Grimes: Probably the best word to say is scared. John B. Grimes: But you have to remember that I'm 19. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. John B. Grimes: And that's not really something I understood at the time. Nor would I have let anybody know that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Sure. John B. Grimes: And I fooled myself into, you know, not thinking I was scared, and I threw the commission. So it's a Texas commission for the blind. It's. It's been renamed, like, a dozen times since then. So I'm not even sure what the current name for it is, but it's the same. Same group. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, but. John B. Grimes: They did offer me some counseling, and I don't know if they required it. Maybe they did. I mean, I went, but I just I didn't want to go, so. Dr. Kirk Adams: I was. John B. Grimes: Just wasting everybody's time. Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. John B. Grimes: So I went a few times and I just wasn't ready. And I, I, you know, I swept it under the rug and I put my head down and plowed through it as best I could. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. John B. Grimes: And I don't recommend that course of action. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. John B. Grimes: I think kind of like you was later. So again, that was 1920. I did go to counseling, probably in my mid 20s, my late, probably like 27, 28, I would say probably almost ten years later. John B. Grimes: And that helped. That helped a lot. But I wasn't ready to do it until then. Right. And one of the other themes that kind of pokes through in my book is kind of a theme of don't wait. I feel like there are things I mentioned that there are some a lot of things I wasn't ready for and prepared for. And as you said, I would. I have been, but I think if I go back and look at some things, I think I was like, I probably should have admitted that I was scared or I should have asked for some more help, or I should have made some different choices. And I don't even know if I went back and told myself at age 20 to do that. I still wouldn't listen to myself. But you know, because everybody goes through the grieving process at their own pace. It's not a linear path. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. John B. Grimes: And I just part part of what I, I hope the book does and some other writing that I'm trying to do is encourage people just in general life, don't wait for things to change the way you think they will or won't, because oftentimes it doesn't. And now, like, if you're gonna pull a pizza right out of the oven, you should wait for that to cool down. Dr. Kirk Adams: Because. John B. Grimes: You know, your mouth's gonna not be happy with you. So it doesn't mean just make knee jerk decisions all the time. But it does mean that there are things where many things in life where waiting doesn't help. And those are some of the lessons that I've taken out of the some of the crazy stories and things that happened with me. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, let's talk. Dr. Kirk Adams: About the title. So destiny is debatable. What are what message are you conveying or what question are you asking? What what are what are you telling us with the title? John B. Grimes: Well, I think it's kind of up for interpretation, really. I, I think that people tend and at least my experience is that I tend to believe that there's just this inertia in life that once you start moving, you just kind of go that direction. And that would be, you know, equivalent to destiny. You're destined to do this or you're not destined to do that. And so I do think that plays out in some cases in life. And maybe for some people, nothing ever changes in their life. And that's maybe great for them. Does sound kind of boring to me. Dr. Kirk Adams: But. John B. Grimes: Certainly not as bumpy as somebody who changes things. So I just think, and I don't like, you know, like, you watch a football game or some sort of sports game and you get towards the end of the year. Their destiny is they control their own destiny. You know, that thing, I just, I mean, I in that regard, everybody controls their own destiny because that just means whatever choices you make is what controls your destiny. And so if the team just keeps winning, well, then of course they control their destiny because, you know. But who just keeps winning, right? Dr. Kirk Adams: This doesn't. Dr. Kirk Adams: Happen. Only only a couple. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, right. It's rare. John B. Grimes: It's more rare than it is the exception rather than the rule. Right. So I just think that that's not the way it's supposed to work. And I think people get sucked into believing that this inertia, this path I'm on or whatever I'm doing is what it's going to be. And I'm here to challenge the notion that especially if it's something you don't like if you're in a job or you're in a situation where you've lost your sight or you're in a hospital bed and this just doesn't look good, then there are options, right? And I hope people understand that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: The I don't know why the term course. Course correction I'm talking. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So you've been a you're a, you're a successful, thriving person. In conversations we've had about your business career and, and acumen and, Family. Et-cetera. So after after graduating in a mere five years, Texas Tech. What what happened next for you? John B. Grimes: I went into the family business, which is insurance from my my dad. I'm the. I have a younger brother. And when I got out of school that my dad was in the insurance and the insurance business property and casualty, which is home and auto insurance, life insurance, that kind of stuff. Yeah. And he worked on the corporate side of things. So he worked for you're in Liberty Mutual, right? You know, Liberty Mutual in your area up there. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah. John B. Grimes: So he worked for the corporate side of that thing, but we, we went into the agency world, which is your brokers, your independent agents for companies like Liberty Mutual and others. And so we did that, and we did that for my and my brother joined us when he got out of school a couple years later for about 18 years and things were going good. There were some major changes in the industry in 2018, and we had a decision whether we were going to basically whether we were going to sell or buy. And we sold. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. John B. Grimes: And since then I've, I've been working for the group that that purchased us, and my dad retired, and my brother has spun off and done something in the insurance space as well. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. So that's what I'm doing. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: How's the how's the workplace for you? How's accessibility accommodations? That operating and operating that way? John B. Grimes: Luckily for me, it's always been pretty good. Because I've mostly been self-employed, essentially. So I can you know, call my own shots, so to speak. I don't know if I need it as well. I do, of course need lots of stuff, but I don't have to go through a HR department or, you know, don't have to advocate for myself in that regard because. Dr. Kirk Adams: I just yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: We talk about, you know, we talk about creating a good fit between the person and the workplace. So you have the opportunity to craft your own good fit with your workplace, which is great. John B. Grimes: It's great for me. I know it's not great for people that are not in that situation. So yeah, I certainly understand the other side of that. But I, I've, I've been very fortunate to be in that position and continue to be in that position. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. John B. Grimes: And the probably the biggest thing for me is not being somebody that that drives legally. I have to throw that in there. I, I, I did drive from the age of 16 to 19, so for almost 14 years. So I do know that. And it's nice. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. John B. Grimes: But as somebody that's not driving, probably one of the greatest things that happened to me was Covid, because since Covid, I've been working from home. I just never I never went back. So. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, it has. Dr. Kirk Adams: It has it has normalized remote work. And that's a silver lining for people who are blind and visually impaired. Because it it doesn't seem like such a big deal now, when we prefer to work remotely and you know, whenever you do research around the biggest barriers to successful employment for people who are blind, there's always a competition for the number one reason and the number two reason. The number one reason is employer attitudes. The number two reason is transportation. So since you're working in your family business, the employer attitude, things was taken care of. Dr. Kirk Adams: Was taken. John B. Grimes: Care of, but I still commuted. I still had to work the work. And now again, I'm in the family business. Dr. Kirk Adams: It was. John B. Grimes: It was. It was easier, but still. And the whole time I was actually trying to work remote. Dr. Kirk Adams: But I. John B. Grimes: Just couldn't. And I had the ability to make it happen. I just in the line of business we were in, it just wasn't really possible for me to write. Dr. Kirk Adams: It wasn't part of the norm. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Had to be meeting people. John B. Grimes: And until Covid happened and then it became the norm and it it I've. Yeah, luckily I've never, never moved back. So my, my transportation is like about 40ft each day. Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah too. Dr. Kirk Adams: So and. John B. Grimes: Maybe maybe 60 if I have too much coffee. Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. And then you you mentioned crazy stories in the book. So give us, give us one. John B. Grimes: Gosh. Well, I said legally driving. So you know, I kid about that, sort of because I, I I'm not licensed to drive anymore. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. John B. Grimes: But my roommate in college had a was a big time. Or one of my roommates was a big time car guy, which was great for me because he loved to drive. You know, it's fun for me being around people that love to drive. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's like, yeah. John B. Grimes: That's a great match for me. So we would go anywhere and everywhere. I was like, hey, about this. He's like, let's do it. And so one day he had a I think it's called a Firehawk. It's a it's like a it was a 90s year model. John B. Grimes: It's like a almost like a Corvette, and it was all souped up, and he had all kinds of stuff on it. And there was a old Air Force base called Reese Air Force Base out in near our college. And they had these long runways out there. Yeah. So we took the car out there and I got behind the wheel and hit it up over a hundred miles an hour in the driver's seat. Dr. Kirk Adams: That sounds great. So when you talk, when you talk about being around people who love to drive, I'll tell you that both of my children, as soon as they turn 16, they were told, go get your driver's license. Your your mom's tired of being the only person who can drive around here. Yes. Yeah. So what's next for you? You're going to launch the book. You're going to be sharing a lot of information, inspiration, food for thought with a lot of people. So what what what did what do you envision the next year looking like after the book launch? John B. Grimes: Well, yeah. So February 7th is the launch, and I think I've really kind of gotten into a writing groove. I've been writing this for so long, it took me a long time to actually get it done. And I've really learned a lot about writing. And in addition to just mechanics, the ability to craft the story, keep it on track, where to cut things, where to add things. And I think, I think I've developed a pretty good knack for it and realized that I, I think I have at least 1 or 2 more of these in me. Not the same type of thing. This is more of a memoir. This is a timeline, historical timeline of what happened with. Dr. Kirk Adams: Me. John B. Grimes: Between about 1998 and 2017. So about 20 or so years time timeline. But a lot of the lessons and things that I've learned from those, I think I've got some spin off things that I'm going to attempt to do. And I also do work. When the meningitis advocacy world we started the foundation in 2025 called shots for meningitis, okay. And it raises awareness and helps people that have survived Meningitis and their accommodations. And so over the next year, I plan to be very much more involved in writing and getting and the meningitis advocacy advocacy space. And it's certainly something that I'm very passionate about, and I can see it becoming a very bigger, very much a bigger part of my my future. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good. Well, I'd love to have you come back in the fall after the book's been out in the world, and you've been able to sink your teeth into your next project and to think more much more seriously about your potential as an advocate. So I'd love to catch up with you then, but for now, Mr. John B Grimes, author of the forthcoming memoir Destiny, is debatable. How can people get in touch? How can people find the book? I know, I know, I get lovely emails from you. How can people be connected? John B. Grimes: Yes. Well, probably three main areas. Destiny is debatable. Comm is the book, but there's a lot of words in there. And, you know, how do you spell all that stuff? It's almost as bad as meningitis. So John B Grimes dot  com is probably the fastest way. There's links to all of those places. And I'm also pretty prolific on LinkedIn and do a lot of posting there. So LinkedIn, I'm John B Grimes there. You'll find all of my posts about the book and other things I'm writing about for https://JohnBGrimes.com. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. And for me, Kirk Adams on LinkedIn, I'm on there every day and my website is Doctor Adams Comm. So I would love to connect with anyone who's listening who would like to talk about disability Inclusion, empowerment, accessibility, employment for disabled individuals, advocacy, social justice, any of that good stuff that you can see on my LinkedIn page, please feel free to get in touch and please go to https://JohnBGrimes.com and buy this book and buy another one and share it with a friend. And until next time, thank you so much. We'll catch you later on Podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.DrKirkkAdams.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Jerred Mace, Founder & CEO, OnceCourt https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-01-21-2025/ In this inspiring episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams talks with Jerred Mace of OneCourt about how haptic technology can make live sports dramatically more accessible for blind and low-vision fans. Adams shares his own "hands-on" encounters with the OneCourt device, feeling the raised layout of a basketball court and the vibrations of a synced, fast-moving play, and later experiencing baseball through touch by sensing pitch location, ball flight, and baserunners in real time alongside the radio broadcast. Jerred traces OneCourt's origin to his University of Washington days, inspired by a video of a blind fan following a soccer match through touch and shaped by his personal experience growing up in a family where disability was "the norm." He describes early prototyping, building a multidisciplinary team, and the company's momentum jump after receiving a Microsoft AI for Accessibility grant in June 2023. The conversation also looks ahead: OneCourt is expanding team and league partnerships while designing a direct-to-consumer version, built to be more affordable and paired with sport "packages" like a streaming model, and invites listeners to join the newsletter and waitlist via OneCourt's website (onecourt dot io). TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington, which is sunny Seattle this afternoon. And I have a guest with me today who is also from the beautiful Pacific Northwest. Jerred Mace, one of the principals of the fabulous company. OneCourt and say. Say hey, Jerred. Jerred Mace: Hey, everybody. Super excited to be here. Dr. Kirk Adams: Great. So I would like to to give a little bit of my history with one court. I first encountered one court over on the Microsoft Redmond campus in the reactor building at a gathering called Seattle Disability Connect. And there are about 120, 140 people there interested in disability inclusion, assistive technology accessibility. And there were a couple of startups demonstrating their products. And Jerred was there with the one court team, and I had no idea what it was. And I put my hands on a flat surface, probably about the size of an iPad with kind of a rubbery surface. And I was exploring it. And on it were the was the raised outlines of a basketball court, and I was born when my parents were in college at Western Washington University, and my dad was a basketball player there. He held the the single game rebound record for many years at 29. And he became a high school basketball coach. And I spent many, many hours in the gym and went to many hundreds of high school basketball games. And as I got older and went to work and had some disposable income, I always had a season ticket package to see the Seattle SuperSonics. So I've spent a lot of time around basketball, so I was pretty excited to see the outlines of a basketball court through my hands. Dr. Kirk Adams: My palms flat. And then what happened was there was a play synchronized with a radio broadcast. Kevin Durant of the Phoenix Suns getting a rebound, the ball moving down the court rapidly side to side passing and Kevin Durant scoring, and I could feel that happening with vibrations under my hands. So I was very excited and have kept in touch with with Jerred as one court has progressed in the spring of 2024, I went out to the University of Washington, home of the Huskies, and sat with one court and team and some other blind people from the community and put my hands on the one court tablet again. And this time it was a baseball diamond, and there was a grid of small squares in a rectangle shape and that line of the baseball diamond and turned the radio on. It was the Seattle Mariners against the Tampa Rays playing in Tampa. And when the first pitch was thrown, I could feel where the pitch entered the strike zone. It was low and away. I could tell that. And the next one was high. And inside I can tell that. Dr. Kirk Adams: And then the ball was struck and I could follow the path of the ball out into the outfield where it was caught. And then later on, when there are runners on base, there was vibrating indicators at the base to show me where the base runners were. So I didn't have to memorize that and keep that in my mind like I usually did when I listen to a game. So I'm a big fan, big fan of one caught and privileged to be involved with the company. And pleased to have Jerred here today and just would really love Jerred to hear the origin story. How how did you get started? You're you're you're young folks strong affiliation with the University of Washington. Making the world of sports more accessible for us who are blind and low vision. And like I said, like I like I said before we started recording, I'd love to hear where you've been, where you are now, where you're planning to go. What's working well, for you any challenges you you may be having and how can people get involved? And I'll I'll I'll hand you the talking stick, and I'll reserve the right as the host to pop in with a question now and then. Jerred Mace: Yes. Please do. Well, thank you, Doctor Kirk, for that introduction to our work and of course, your close relationship with us. It's pretty special to see, man, how long you've been involved and how much has happened since then. So yeah, thank you for for going through that. I was I was amazed to hear you remembered some of those those match ups in particular. So that's awesome. I also didn't know that story about your dad. That's very cool. At Western. So you're happy to give a little bit of a background on one court and who I am and what our company is set out to do. Basically it was 2021 when we got started. And of course, that was, you know, well into the Covid years. And I was a junior at the University of Washington. So I was studying industrial design there. And I came across this video of a blind person at a soccer match, and they were sitting in the stands with a woman who was watching the game, and at the same time moving his hands across a game board to represent the action. And that really stood out to me, you know, as a designer who was interested in user experience and fan experience, but also as someone who grew up in a household where disability was very much the norm, you know? So both of my parents have disabilities, and my vision experience has changed quite a bit over time. You know, when I was a kid, for example, with surgeries and other things, like I had to find a way to adapt to sports and of course everything else is, as I think many listeners will appreciate, like adaptation is kind of the name of the game and you know, that translated to the world of sports for me. Jerred Mace: So it was gravitating towards sports like wrestling where touch was primary or, you know, sitting really close to the TV to kind of pick out player positions and details like that. So I think I've always had an understanding of of what it meant to experience the world a little bit differently than some of my peers. And I think this light bulb moment of, wow, here is someone truly experiencing and accessing the game in a new way that that I had not thought about. And I just started considering, like, how can we bring that experience to everybody? You know, because it's one thing to rely on a friend or family member to describe the game or to, in this case, manually, you know, move their hands across a board. It's another to experience the game independently and to form your own Own interpretations. And, and I think there's a lot of power that comes with that and a lot of joy as well. So it's been an amazing journey so far. But but our original hypothesis was simply, how can we create sports that are accessible through touch? And it's where we got started. So yeah. Any anything come to mind off of that? Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, yeah. So you had the concept of making sports more accessible through through touch. But then what what happens. Do you design a prototype? Do you make it a school project? How does it go from a thought to a thing? Jerred Mace: Yeah, it's a great question. We started, I should say I started I worked for about six months by myself, and that was kind of a mistake. But I was researching. I was learning about this looking at other work that had been done. There were some, like, really interesting off hand projects and also work that was similarly situated that I thought could inform this concept. But I it was about six months into it that I presented it publicly at school for the first time. It was at the UW Science and Technology Showcase. And I remember going into that event, it was it was kind of a research poster style event where, you know, you you put together a poster and present it to a group and different people, you know, ask you questions and whatnot. And I didn't expect much of it, but I was really excited to be there and just kind of share this with the world. And to my surprise, it went really well. People were really excited. Dr. Kirk Adams: And so this was a concept. You hadn't built anything? Jerred Mace: Yeah. No, I had done some like basically rough sort of behind the curtain prototyping of, you know, taking existing vibration motors, for example, and just trying to understand, like vibration a little bit more deeply than I had at that time. So they're very minor exploration. Dr. Kirk Adams: And do you use the term haptics? Jerred Mace: Yeah we do. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Jerred Mace: Yeah. Haptics is probably the main term we use. But you know, vibration can sometimes get across more easily. But we definitely mix it up. But it was at that, it was at that event that I, I sort of recognized that this concept was likely to have value outside of just my brain. And it was amazing to see my peers and my mentors kind of come around it. And we I actually ended up we got a grand prize at that event, which was unbelievable. So that not only gave me the encouragement and the confidence to pursue it, but also a little bit of funding, right, to to go out and start prototyping and things like that. But the I remember I mean, the immediate afterthought after that, I closed that event was, okay, it's time to form a team because I think six months in, I had just hit a wall and realized my limitations as a designer, right? Like, I'm I'm not going to do everything that's required to accomplish this mission. And that's a good thing, right? Like, you don't want you're too slow otherwise, right. So you need a team of people who bring our diverse perspectives and, and technical experiences to, to really solve a big problem like this. So that's what we did. We we found a team at UW, mostly students in and around the entrepreneurship program, but really across the university. So and that team is still together today. You know, we've got we're a team of nine now, but, gosh, what is it? It's it's six. Six of that nine have been there really from the beginning. And we've got such a strong team of, of co-founders as well. So Yeah. Brought on another through Nick Durand and Andrew Buckingham, all of which represent different areas of our business. So, you know, hardware, software, business development, really foundational areas. So that's where we really got cooking. Dr. Kirk Adams: And then you have the team together. You're still all in school. Jerred Mace: Yeah. This was so this would be 2022 by that point. And we were in the beginning. It was kind of large round table meetings. You know we'd we all had outside obligations. But we were interested in this and we'd meet every week to discuss it. And we were planning, you know, some of our initial goals were just to like, let's explore this, let's participate in some of those student competitions. So we did a lot of those early on. And yeah, let's explore the concept further and and see if there really is anything there. And on on the product side, what that looked like was exploring the idea of vibration as a means to communicate motion because, you know, it's it's kind of an abstract idea. And we didn't know if vibration or haptics was going to be that the solution that we we needed. We just knew it was one potential avenue, and we had identified maybe two. There were two major approaches, but haptics was kind of the leading hypothesis. And the initial testing was really, can we, can we animate this in a way that's intuitive and, you know, really that's it. Jerred Mace: Can you can you understand what it means for a vibration to move and how do you actually execute that? So yeah, our earliest prototype was it was sort of a tennis concept of experiencing motion back and forth. And it wasn't two dimensional at all. It was very basic. I mean, it was built over a weekend and mounted to a piece of plywood. Okay. So it was like it was a very, very rough proof of concept, but I think each prototype along the way we just answered or asked another question. And I think we pretty quickly realized, okay, we're on to something here. You know, haptics can be used to experience sports through touch, and I think that gave us a lot of confidence in the technical approach. And of course, working closely with users in our community getting out there, doing customer discovery with sports teams and broadcasters and just understanding sports as a landscape to was was a big initial hurdle. And we can definitely dive more into, you know, the data and understanding how that came into the fold because it's a it's a big part of what we do. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So I guess my next question is at what point did it go from a, a roundtable discussion and the simple tactile pong game on a piece of plywood to a company. Jerred Mace: Yeah. I think, you know, that transition happened pretty closely timed with our transition out of university. Okay. I think, you know, there was a lot of anxiety, I think personally and across the team of like, okay, what's next? You know, like are we there's clearly something here. You know, we had had some competition wins under our belt. We we participated and won an award at the Dempsey Startup Competition and the Holloman Health Challenge and the the Social Venture competition. So we had some some funding, a little bit of funding at this point, but. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, some social proofing. Jerred Mace: Yeah, exactly. And the product was getting there as a proof of concept, but it was really as we were graduating, there was definitely a moment of like, is this a viable next step for our early careers? And I think those those doubts were squashed really quickly and perfectly timed. In June of 2023. So as we were graduating in that month, it was the same month that we were awarded a grant from Microsoft. So we participated in the AI for accessibility grant program. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh yeah. Jerred Mace: Yeah. And that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you Microsoft. Jerred Mace: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Funded some really great projects. I know of a couple. Jerred Mace: Yeah. They're incredible. The team over there. Jenny you wanna I mean, they're an amazing group of people that have really, you know, uplifted our work. And I mean, without that grant, I would I do question, like, would one corp be in the same position, like it would have been a much different road, I think, if we hadn't had that support early on. So that enabled us to transition to full time. So we took it on right after graduating. And that's really, you know, we started to obviously accelerate our progress from there. Given that that was what we were focused on just about every single day. Dr. Kirk Adams: And that's probably I guess that's probably about the time I encountered you over at the Microsoft campus or some some somewhere in that time frame, fairly fairly new in your journey as a company. And then really interested in the input. You mentioned getting input from sports franchises and sportscasters and you know, I know as I've subscribed to your newsletters, you certainly have involved the blind and visually impaired people in the journey. So would would love to hear about how you engage the various stakeholder groups. Jerred Mace: Yeah. I mean, let's talk about the data first. I mentioned that earlier, like one of the really big bets that we took as a company early on. And full credit to my co-founder, COO Bellini, he made this, he made he had this insight. And really it was a question of how are how are we going to power this experience. You know, like you could imagine someone drawing on an iPad and having that be the input. But or and we also imagined, well, we could build data infrastructure ourselves, right. We could try to set up cameras and try to pull out the, the ball location of the player location from that computer vision. But I think we realized pretty quickly that, wow, the the teams and leagues are already investing in data infrastructure. And maybe we can divert a technical risk into a business opportunity. So it was more so about working and partnering with the leagues to access their data, which by no means was easy to do, but it has proven that that was the definitely the right decision one, because of course they're the rights holder. So they actually have the right to they own it. They distribute it. But also because those relationships have. Dr. Kirk Adams: So how do you go about that? I know for instance, I know saw a wonderful write up of blind individuals enjoying a Portland Trailblazers game with one court. So how do you go about that ring? Ring? Portland trailblazers, it's Jerred. I've got this idea to. Yeah, to make your games accessible for blind people. And you know, how how do you approach that? Jerred Mace: Yeah, I know our sales team led by enthused like they they did a lot of cold outreach, you know, LinkedIn and and going to events. And I think just building a presence and meeting people and you know really just basic customer discovery and building relationships. And I think we we in the beginning, we tried to make it as easy as possible for a team to give us a chance, you know, like you know, so we were pursuing a pilot, right? In which case. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Jerred Mace: If it's unsuccessful, we never have to talk about it again. You know, put this in the in the history books and you never have to look at it and you never have to announce it, etc.. So I think by, by de-risking that it gave the teams because of course sports properties are risk averse as any business should be. Right. Like you, when you have a strong reputation, you don't want to put that on the line by working with some. Yeah. Unproven technologies and startup. So I think that was certainly an understandable position. And I think we were able to get ourselves in the room and prove that, yeah, this was a little bit more than just a hypothesis. Like there was something here. And we demonstrated that value in a pilot and converted that into, you know, full season deals. And that's where we're kind of getting today on the B2B side has been tremendous growth and adoption and seeing sports teams across different leagues. So we've had, you know, interest from many, many different leagues, but were presently supporting four different sports football, basketball, baseball, soccer across different leagues. So most present within the NBA we've got ten teams this year okay. So that's up from. Dr. Kirk Adams: So so so rattle them off. So I know the trailblazers and and Major League Baseball the Diamondbacks. So who are who are the franchises. Jerred Mace: Yeah I'll do my best. Yeah okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: So if you miss any we'll forgive you. It's probably on the website. Jerred Mace: Please forgive me. So okay Portland Trail Blazers Sacramento Kings, LA Clippers, Phoenix Suns, Denver Nuggets, Atlanta Hawks, Orlando Magic Brooklyn Nets Oh boy. Let's see Milwaukee Bucks and then the last one I actually cannot announce yet okay. But that one's. Dr. Kirk Adams: We'll have you we'll have you back. Jerred Mace: Yes. So that one. Dr. Kirk Adams: So so if anyone if anyone's blind and visually impaired listening. And you live in those cities. You can go and enjoy one court. Jerred Mace: Yeah. And it's free for fans that are attending. So you've got a ticket to the game. You simply go to guest services and ask, hey, I want to check out a one court device. You can use it for the duration of the game. I think it's a fantastic opportunity to try the technology and and also, you know, spend some time in with friends and family at a really fun event like nothing better than that. Dr. Kirk Adams: So and and in addition to I mentioned the Diamondbacks, do you have other Major League Baseball franchises at this point? Jerred Mace: So the Diamondbacks were the they were the first and only last season. So working on for next season. And then we we did some work for the Club World Cup. That was more of a pilot. And then we we did for NFL pilots this year. Okay. So there's yeah, there's definitely more to come in each of those leagues. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I mentioned before we started recording, I just got off the phone with Anthony Ferraro, who I had not met before and I read about him in your one court newsletter, reached out to him on LinkedIn. He is a a a younger blind man, fairly new father, lives in new Jersey. He was a high school blind wrestler, as was I. He will be a Paralympic team judo team member in 2028. He's a musician, a motivational speaker, a multi, multi passionate person. It was great meeting him and I met him because of the one court newsletter, but he mentioned that he'd been in Seattle recently to do some work around FIFA, so I. You started out the concept started out because you saw a video of a deaf blind person enjoying soccer. And here in Seattle, for those who don't live in the area, soccer is pretty big here, the Seattle Sounders, it's quite an experience to go to Sounders game. And so I think there's probably a lot of excitement around the World Cup. And just wondering what your thoughts are around one court in the World Cup? Jerred Mace: Yeah, it's a big question and we unfortunately don't have any news yet. We're still working on things. Yeah. But I, I was very encouraged by the pilot that we did with with in Seattle and we did two we did in Seattle and Atlanta. And Anthony was able to join us for that. He joined us in Seattle. So I'm really glad you connected him and honestly honored that you found him through us. He's a he's an incredible guy and we have so much respect and love for him, not only as a company, but just personally too. Like he's a he's a really great person. So definitely check out his Instagram ASF vision. Yeah. Or on TikTok. But I follow him on Instagram. But yeah, incredible guy. And he was he joined he's joined us for a few events actually. And Yeah, big, big friend of the company. Dr. Kirk Adams: So then you You have the one quart devices available? More than a dozen sports franchises, it sounds like. And you're looking to add more and more. And then I know one of our recent conversations, you're thinking about making the technology available to individuals. So we'd love to hear kind of what what future plans are. What's next for one quart? Jerred Mace: Yeah, you're exactly right. We are excited to be launching a direct to consumer product, and it's really been driven by the community. You know, since the beginning, fans have been asking, when can I use this at home? And I think that's a natural. Of course, like that makes sense because most sports are watched at home. So we're really excited about that opportunity and basically what it looks like for our team is a new design challenge, and it's one that we're in the middle of right now. Because, you know, when we look at there's different needs and priorities between our B2B business and this direct to consumer opportunity. One of the big ones is cost, right? Like as you look at you know, like sports teams and like an early technology, I think those customers have the ability to invest in larger scale technologies. Technologies that are more expensive. And that's just not possible at the consumer level. Right? So what we're looking at is flipping those development priorities and optimizing for cost while maintaining course quality and versatility. The kind of the other main objectives and it's yeah, we're like I said, we're in the middle of that design process right now. So we've. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Jerred Mace: We have some awesome prototypes that are demonstrating the value of this. We know we're on the right track, and there's really a handful of remaining challenges to to solve. But yeah, we're expecting to launch a pre-order very soon. I don't have a launch date yet, but people should join our newsletter because that's or even better, our waitlist. If you want to be one of the first to have a device at home that's where you'll learn about it. So we're getting ready to launch it. It's kind of like the business model is kind of like buying a TV and a streaming service. Okay, of course you're, you know, you're buying a piece of hardware as you described it. It's kind of like an iPad. You, you know, it's very versatile in that way. And you can watch any sport you want. We're likely going to have three sports to begin with, the big three here in the US. So football, basketball and baseball, although nothing is, as I said, confirmed yet. Right, right. Yeah. And then there will also be the streaming. So you know, whichever sport package you are interested in, they can simply stream that through the device and it's not. Dr. Kirk Adams: I spend a lot of time on my couch, I'll admit it. Listening to sports on television. Yeah. And imagining what's going on. And listening to. I love to sit on my front porch. We can see Lumen Field where the Seahawks play from our front porch. Jerred Mace: Oh, no kidding. Dr. Kirk Adams: Love to sit there and listen to Mariners games on the radio. Yeah, love, love to have a one caught in my lap. Jerred Mace: It's a great point. You know you mentioned audio. It's you know sometimes fans ask us like are you guys replacing audio. And that's definitely not the case. You know we view one cord and audio is like perfect pairs. You know in the same way that sighted fans are both watching and listening to the game. We want to be feeling and listening to the game and it just adds a whole nother layer. So it also what we've seen is that it reduces learning curve quite a bit. Right. Like. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. So I can imagine trying to a fully blind person who's never seen a game trying to, trying to explain it. Yeah. Being a challenge. Jerred Mace: Yeah. So it's, it's beautiful because you're listening. You know, you might be hearing the announcer say, oh, and there's a fumble by number 27 in the backfield. And you're also feeling that at the same time. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Jerred Mace: Your brain is able to just very quickly understand and interpret what's happening. And I think that's a really powerful experience. So we are working on like audio integrations. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I mean it was a it was a visceral experience for me. Listening to the Mariners on the radio, which I've done probably thousands of times, and to have the experience of, you know, feeling where the ball crossed the plate at the same time it was actually happening and at the same time. You know, the radio announcer was saying, you know, ball one. And I could tell, like I said, it was low in away. Jerred Mace: Yeah, it gives you it's kind of that interpretive lens, right? Like, you're able to understand what's happening as it's happening and not waiting for someone to have to say anything oftentimes. Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Jerred Mace: So I do I totally resonate with that point. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I applaud you for what you're doing. You are enhancing lives and experience and bringing joy and the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat to people's hands, which is awesome. And how can people connect? You mentioned the newsletter. You mentioned a wait list. How to how to people subscribe to the newsletter. How do people get on the wait list? Jerred Mace: Yeah. So if anyone wants to get in touch, please go to our website. It's one quarter dot I o. That's o n e c o u r I o. And on that home page you can sign up for the newsletter. You can sign up for the wait list. You can sign up for both. I definitely recommend both, especially if you're interested in either buying the product for yourself or gifting it to someone else. Dr. Kirk Adams: So nice. Now that would be a heck of a gift. If you have a blind sports fan in your life for sure. That that'd be a nice gift to open. Jerred Mace: I think so, yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. For me you can find me on LinkedIn. Kirk Adams, PhD. I do have a website as well, and I have a newsletter you can subscribe to. It's Doctor Kirk Adams. Com doctor Kirk Adams comm. And been a pleasure. Jerred. The time flew by. Looking forward to the next step in the one quart journey to success. And we'll have you back when the, the B2C program is up and running and check in on how that's going. And you and you and team continue to push forward. Really appreciate you having here today. Jerred Mace: Hey, thank you, Doctor Kirk. Likewise. Can't thank you enough for all your support. And. Yeah, thanks so much. Dr. Kirk Adams: You bet. We'll see you all next time on podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Sheldon Guy, Director, Women's Athletics, Improve Her Game https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-12-18-2025/ In this deeply moving episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams speaks with Sheldon Guy, Director of Women's Athletics with Improve Her Game and, by his account, one of the only blind basketball coaches, about the sudden, life-altering loss of his vision and the raw, real-time process of rebuilding a life. Sheldon recounts how quickly his world shifted, the heartbreak of what that meant for his son, and the moment he reached a breaking point, only to find a reason to keep going through messages of love and belief from his son and the players he coached. From there, he made a conscious decision to "pivot," return to the gym, and keep his commitments, launching a story of resilience that later drew major media attention and led to documentary coverage of his journey. The conversation expands beyond personal triumph into advocacy and systems change. Sheldon shares how he's pushed major organizations to improve accessibility (including voice-enabled options that reduce barriers for blind customers) and how his guiding philosophy, "see something, say something", turns everyday friction into concrete progress. He also speaks candidly about the added reality of navigating disability as a Black man, including harassment and safety concerns, while continuing to pursue hard goals, speaking to schools, inspiring young people, and taking on athletic challenges like obstacle races as a fully blind competitor. Together, Dr. Adams and Sheldon explore the evolving question of purpose, and how vulnerability, community, and relentless forward motion can become a lifeline, and a platform for change. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am, said Doctor Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in rainy Seattle, Washington. And today I have a really interesting guest, Sheldon Guy. He's director of women's athletics with Improve Her Game and as far as I know, he's the first and only blind basketball coach that I am aware of. And Sheldon, say hi. Hello. Thanks. We'll be back to you. So I, I was born when my parents were in college, attending Western Washington college at that point in Bellingham. And my dad was a basketball player, college basketball player, highly competitive. He held a single game rebound record at Western for over 40 years. 29 rebounds in one game. Sheldon. Wow. And then my dad was a high school basketball coach. For for his career. He's he's passed away four years ago, but I I spent a lot of time at the gym. I spent a lot of time at basketball games. I, I had a I always had a hoop in our driveway, and I shot lots and lots of free throws and I was totally blind since age five, so my dad rigged up. It was actually like a light weight chain that you would use to chain for a dog, and he attached it to the bracket and the back of the back of the basket. Dr. Kirk Adams: And then I would hold one into my hand and tug on it so it would make a noise so I could know where the hoop was, and I'd release it and I'd shoot. And I owe many, many thousands of baskets as a kid. So I read about you in access Information news. And for those who aren't aware, that's a weekly publication that talks about what it sounds like new news about accessibility, disability inclusion. And I'm a sponsor. My consulting company is called Innovative Impact, LLC. And I'm a I'm a sponsor of Access Information News. And I read it weekly, and I read about a blind basketball coach who happens to live just north of Surrey, B.C., British Columbia. And so I reached out to Sheldon via LinkedIn and said, just read about you in Access Information news. I want to get to know you. So we had a call and chatted a little bit and invited Sheldon onto the podcast and really want to hand the microphone over to you. Sheldon would love to hear about your journey. Looking at your LinkedIn profile, it looks like you've been a sales sales executive. Very successful. You talk about public speaking, you talk, you use the word pivot. Which of course is also a basketball term, but just would would love to love to hear your story. Sheldon Guy: Well, thank you Mr. Adams, and thanks for having me on your podcast. I really appreciate it. I'm not a I'm not as polished as maybe some of your your other guests may have been on your podcast. And the reason I. Dr. Kirk Adams: We look for authenticity. Sheldon. Sheldon Guy: Yeah, well, I think. Dr. Kirk Adams: You're. Sheldon Guy: I think you're you're going to get it today because my story is real. It's raw, it's authentic, and it's mine. Three years ago. Let's just go. Three and a half years ago I was at my dining room table putting together all of my player packs for my team, meaning backpacks, hoodies, pants, socks, all that sort of stuff. As I just finished tryouts and I just selected my team. I then started to notice something, but didn't pay too much attention to it because I was more focused in on getting into Into the season, so I didn't pay much attention to really anything other than basketball like he mentioned, because I spend a ton of hours at the gym. I was able to drive around, do what I needed to do to get prepared for the for the season. A few, a few weeks went on and I flew up to a city called Kelowna. It's north of me for some meetings with some customers. And I rented a vehicle and we were driving from Kelowna down to Penticton to see some product and a customer and all that sort of stuff. And I noticed that I couldn't really see the passenger beside me or the road. And so I just kept rubbing my eyes and thinking, okay, you know, maybe there's something in my eyes I didn't really understand, but I could see, I could still see. Sheldon Guy: I was still fine, but just I would I'd have to turn my head to look over instead of seeing her in my peripheral. So that was very scary. And I think that's what prompted me to go and see my ophthalmologist. And so I went in and saw my ophthalmologist when I got back. So I flew back the next day, and then I went in and saw my ophthalmologist and she, she did some tests. And then, you know, she got very concerned telling me that my optic nerve was inflamed and that I needed to go see I'm trying to remember the the the series of doctors, but it was an ophthalmologist. And then I went and saw an no, I saw an optometrist. Then I saw an ophthalmologist. Yeah. And then I moved on to a couple other people and ended up seeing a neurologist. And so you know, that's when stuff started to go really sideways. And the neurologist wanted to admit me into the hospital, and I just didn't want to go in the hospital. So he's like, okay, you know, take these prednisones. See if we can bring down the inflammation. And things are happening very, very quickly. This is in a span of three weeks. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheldon Guy: And so it was so I, so I took the prednisone. I felt really bad because at the time, I was out for dinner and I drove to dinner and you know, they gave me all these, I don't know, it's 30 tablets that I had to take three times a day. And there is a steroid to bring down the inflammation or stop the inflammation. So I'm at the dinner table in this restaurant. I'm counting out 30 pills on a table. I kind of felt like it felt felt like, oh my gosh, people are gonna look at me like a drug dealer or something like that. But it wasn't the case. I was. Those were legal drugs that I was, I was on, so I took the prednisone and that didn't work. And so after that process it was a Saturday morning, I woke up and I went to make my bed, and I, I couldn't see my bed. And so, like, I could see, but I couldn't see. And I knew something was happening. Like something was going on. So I went down to my laptop, emailed the neurologist and said, hey, listen, like I think I got to go in because I think something's happening. I think we got to act pretty quickly. And so he emailed me back right away and said, yep, I've got you on the list. Go, go now. Like go today. I said, okay, I just obviously had to get some stuff together. And I'm a single father of a son, so my son was with me at the time. Sheldon Guy: He had to work that day and he didn't really know what was going on either. It was just a regular Saturday. He got up, I made him breakfast, we hung out and he was getting ready. He had to work that evening and I didn't want anything to happen until he actually left for work. So I waited the day called for a ride to to go to the hospital, but told them to keep it, you know, to themselves and under wraps and packed my bag the best way I could to go to the hospital. Didn't really know what I was packing, but just packed it just in case they were going to admit me and then ended up going downstairs. Just before Jayden was and my son's name, Jayden. And just before he left we were standing. I live in a townhouse, so I live, I have one flight, two flights, three flights, four flights of stairs. And I was on the main level at the stair, and he was at the top level of the stair going down. And he looked at me with this concerned look. He's like, is everything okay? And I said, everything will be fine, buddy. I'm just going to go to the hospital. And something's happening with my vision. And he started to joke, and we just joke back and forth, and he came back with with a rebuttal. He's like, I love you, and I hope everything's good. And I'm like, you know, buddy, I don't know if I'll ever be able to see you again. Sheldon Guy: And one tear came down my eye when I said that, and he was the last thing I ever saw. Oh, I then went into the hospital, and they did. I was in there for nine days, and they did all sorts of tests. Like, I had a couple spinal taps. I had all sorts of MRIs all sorts of CT scans. They the, the province even paid for a $500,000 test for hereditary test to see if this is hereditary. They did a ton of tests. Test me for Ms.. Test me for glaucoma, macular degeneration, diabetic retinopathy you name it, they went down the list and they couldn't find anything. And so I can't remember what exactly what day it was. But I went to see after all these tests, I went to see the neurologist and have a meeting with them. Yeah. And so I went in and had a meeting with him, and he was very he he didn't have. I remember this, like, as clear as mud. He had no bedside manners. He Which probably isn't surprising, but no bedside manners. And he basically said to me. He basically said you were destined for this. There was nothing we can do. This is going to be the way, the the way you're going to be for the rest of your life. Excuse me, Mr. Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. No. Sheldon Guy: So? So that was. It was super hard to take. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: My life had just turned upside down within a matter of weeks. So I remember. Being in the hospital transfer bus back to Sir Memorial. And I walked into Sir Memorial and There were two doors, sliding doors. And the first one that opened, I walked through, or I was in a wheelchair that I didn't need to be in a wheelchair, but I walked, they wheeled me in and the first doors open, and I thought to myself, I'm back here. And the second doors opened. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: And I said to myself. I'm not leaving this place. This is it. I'm not leaving this hospital. So sorry. Dr. Kirk Adams: No worries. Sheldon Guy: Just emotional because it's my story and I'm still living it. And so I went. I went to my room. And I closed the door. Sheldon Guy: I felt where my bed was, and it turned the bed toward toward the window. Sheldon Guy: And I climbed into bed and then I went and had all these medications still on the side table. So I, I decided that this was it. This is my destiny and this is how it was going to go out. I'm sorry, Mr. Adams. So. I grabbed. All the bills that were on the left side, and I grabbed my phone and I left a couple messages. I prepared a couple messages on my phone. One was to Jaden. And the message was. That I loved him and that I hope that he grows up to be exactly what I want him to be. It was. It was my goodbye message. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: So I climbed into bed and I pulled the sheets up to my shoulders. And I had the pills in my left hand. And I had my hand on the button on the right hand. And I was just going to press send. Pop. And just wait to go home. Because I knew I couldn't live like this. Like. I just made that decision that I couldn't live like this anymore. Or at all. Moments. Moments before I was about to put the pills into my mouth, my phone went off. It vibrated. And? I listened to the message. Still had the pills in my left hand. And listen to the message. And it was Jaden. And his message was. I love you, dad. God's got this for you. You'll be okay. And. I listened to it again to make sure I heard what I heard. And then I didn't even look. I didn't even look to my left hand. I just dumped the pills on the floor. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: And then I said, I gotta figure this out. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: I can't do this. I gotta figure this out. And so. I made that decision in the hospital to continue to pivot and to persevere and to somewhat find purpose. It's been three years of pivoting. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: Persevering and finding purpose. I have after I came out of the hospital before I went into the hospital, I resigned as the head coach of the Langley Secondary Thunderbirds. I called the athletic director, and then I actually resigned as a basketball official with Fraser Valley Basketball Association as well. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheldon Guy: And resigned from both of those before I went to the hospital, literally as I was leaving my house. So they didn't really know what was going on, but they knew I resigned because I was losing my vision and I got out of the hospital. One of the things I said was after days being at home is I want to go coach. And people around me were like, what? What do you mean you want you just lost your vision. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? Sheldon Guy: I want to go, coach. I can't leave him. I can't leave the girls like this. I committed to them. I need to figure this out. I need to pivot. I need to figure this out. So I went to the school. I called the editor, Mark wise, and told him what my plans were, and he was super excited to have me back. And I walked into the school. I want to back up for a two messages. Actually came through on my phone. Jaden's was the first one. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: But the other one were from my basketball. Girls are sent me a message as well, and as a group. And they were just wishing that I was going to be okay and to feel better soon. Those two messages saved my life. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: So when I went in to when I walked into the gym two girls kind of fainted kind of fell to the gym floor, and everybody started crying. And I just had a talk with them and let them know that I'm here for them and that I'm committed to them. However, I have to. However, whatever I have to do. And so I had the talk. We had some tears, we shared hugs and then it was back to work. To the baseline. And I had some troubles. I had a friend there and he was helping me with practice, but really, not really. He was just on the sidelines and he was crying because once he put me in a position of where I, where I needed to be, I just, I felt like I had vision. I knew the gym. I knew where the girls were. I knew what the girls looked like. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: I knew my stuff. I just had. Dr. Kirk Adams: To figure out. Dr. Kirk Adams: You ran practice. Sheldon Guy: I ran practice, and my friend Gabe Gibbs he's the founder of G2, and he was on the sidelines tearing up because he was so amazed at just the resilience I had to get back on the court and just to run, practice, run my drills, run the skills. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: Clearly I can see what I was doing or what they were doing right. And he would step in once in a while and correct. But I ran the hour and a half practice by myself. Dr. Kirk Adams: Cool. Sheldon Guy: From that time we were registered in a tournament. Howard summer tournament. And I had phoned Howard up with me getting out of the hospital, and just confirmed that our team was still going to be in, and then I told him what had happened to me. Well, he was shocked. He's a news column journalist up here in Canada. He's he's followed sports since I was in high school. Like he wrote an article on me when I was in high school. I'm not aging myself. Just you know just a few years ago. But he was astonished. And so he wrote a massive article. And you're more than welcome to go read it. It's in verse varsity letters, and you just search up Sheldon Guy. And he wrote a magnificent article on me. And then he came out and actually, like, witnessed me. Yeah, coaching a game. And so I had that tournament and I confirmed that I was in the tournament. So word spread very quickly because the basketball community is very small. Right? So we're we're word spread very quickly. And We had the, the a game. Jaden and I had a game. So Jaden then obviously found out what had happened to me. And he. Dr. Kirk Adams: Was. Sheldon Guy: Very concerned. He's my best friend. I love him to death. Yeah. But we we got to the gym, and Jaden obviously drove my truck. So backing up, when Jaden went to work, I allowed him to take my truck because he just got his driver's license. So I think he was shot. He was shocked there that I would just let him take the truck, because normally I would be in the truck driving him, right? Or he'd be driving, and then I would wait or go home and then come back, pick him up, and then he would drive home. But he was given the truck all by himself, so he kind of knew something was up. So anyway, we got to the gym and we're walking across the parking lot toward the gym, and I had the balls and my bag or my coaching bag, and Jayden whispered to me, he's like, dad, there's a bunch of guys with cameras and they're looking right at us. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he said, dad, now they're coming at us. And I said, okay, we'll just go to the gym like, let's just go. I don't know what they're for. Let's just go to the gym. And then they actually ended up coming up. And I had cameras all around Jayden and I, and it was TSN, which is your ESPN. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: It was global. It was city TV. It was all sorts of news people that got wind that I was coaching and I just lost my vision. I don't know how, but they did. And so TSN and global were the ones, the forefronts that were kind of the bullies of the group. And they said, listen, we'd like to film you. Sheldon Guy: Our executive producer heard about this and wants to push all our stories aside and follow you. And I was like, awesome. So I laid on the ground outside and I was crying because I just didn't know I was overwhelmed. I didn't know what was going on. So anyway, TSN ended up filming me for the whole tournament and then and and so they came to the house, they had drones following Jaden and I, they interviewed us and that's where my documentary got produced. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh. So tell us about tell. Dr. Kirk Adams: Us about. Dr. Kirk Adams: That. Sheldon Guy: Yeah. So I have a documentary that was produced by TSN and W5. If you Google Sheldon, Guy, W5 and pivot, there's a 22 minute documentary done on me. And it basically talks about everything that that I did that I just talked to you about how I lost my vision, how I persevered found purpose and pivoted. And in that documentary, they don't show it. But TSN the executive director said, you said pivot 52 times. And so we're going to call this story pivot. That's where the story pivot came from. Dr. Kirk Adams: So, okay. Sheldon Guy: Tsn did a documentary and that went basically worldwide. They posted on all their channels and then W5 then contacted me, which is our 60 minutes. Your 60 minutes down there. Yeah, that's W5 up here. And then they did a documentary on me a little bit longer, a little bit meatier. And they did a documentary on me. And then obviously global did their interview and CTV as well. So yeah, the documentary basically highlights just the story that I just explained, but a little bit more in depth for you to be able to go and watch I don't know how many thousands of people have watched it. I get messages almost daily through my Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn. I have no idea how. Dr. Kirk Adams: To. Sheldon Guy: Access. Dr. Kirk Adams: Access. Dr. Kirk Adams: Information news. Sheldon Guy: I have no idea how they got the story. No idea whatsoever. Because when you message me, my first question was like, where did he see this story? Dr. Kirk Adams: Like, I have. Sheldon Guy: No idea where where that came from. Dr. Kirk Adams: But yeah Dr. Kirk Adams: It's out there. Dr. Kirk Adams: Now. It's in the world. Sheldon Guy: It is. It's in the world. So so I did, so I did the documentary, I pivoted, and then I just continued to try and advocate and just be a voice for accessibility. Dr. Kirk Adams: And how would you describe your purpose? You said in the hospital when you got the messages, one from your son and one from your, your basketball team? And you said you determined that you're going to pivot and persevere and, and discover your purpose. So three, three, three years, three and a half years into your journey as a blind person, how would you describe your purpose? Sheldon Guy: Well, it's weird because I don't have I haven't found my purpose. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheldon Guy: I'm continuing to to persevere. And I'm continuing to find my purpose. I haven't found my purpose, I don't know. I'm a man of faith, so I don't know what he needs from me or what he wants. I have no idea what why I'm going through this journey. I'm still trying. Dr. Kirk Adams: Still still seeking. Sheldon Guy: Correct. But daily I try and be better each and every day. Yeah. So from an advocacy role I'm now a director with Equal Access Collective, and they're a group of like minded individuals with living experience. And I joined that group probably about a year ago. Volunteer. It's a volunteer position, but I joined that group in order to be able to push advocacy. And I have a saying myself. See something, say something. And so through my journeys, if I come across something that I need to prevail or persevere through, I make it worth my time to call. I'll give you a couple examples. Air Canada, for example. It was very difficult as as I'm a VP for my company and it's very difficult for me to book a flight. Yeah, because everything is. I'm, I'm, I'm three years into this. I can't go on the website. I don't know how to navigate on the web. I don't know the sounds, the gestures and how to book. And even with the telephone, you phone and you have to press all these numbers. Press one for this, press two. How am I supposed to find the one? We have smartphones. There's no raised buttons. How am I supposed to find it? So I got Ahold of Air Canada and I got Ahold of the VP of operations, and I talked to him. They flew me out to Montreal, and I brought my iPad with me, and I showed them how difficult it was for me to be able to find out to book a flight. Like, why is it so hard? Well, he said, we can't do this. So they immediately changed their telephone system to be voice activated. So I can. Dr. Kirk Adams: Phone. Sheldon Guy: At any point in time. So can you. So just so you know, and your listeners, you can phone Air Canada. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: You can voice describe where you want to go, the dates you want to go, the departure city and pay by credit card all by voice. And I was responsible for changing that. Up here in Vancouver, we have an organization, BC ferries. I called them as well, advocated for. Hey, this isn't accessible. They've made changes to their telephone system, and they're continuing to make changes for on board services as well. Bc hydro, which is our hydro company up here, heard me right away. And they changed their system to voice activated Best Buy Canada, which is Sam's Club in the US changed their system so I can actually get computer help all by voice. So I just have to say what I need. And, you know, we're in the world of AI, so it's very easy for these guys to simulate. But the biggest thing, Mr. Adams, is a see something, say something. It's not their fault. It's if you don't say something and help them, then there won't be. They don't know. They don't know. So when I'm out there and I'm struggling I let them know. But also when I'm out there and I get, you know, some really good help and I'm assisted, like, I was at Aritzia and Aritzia in Guildford was absolutely amazing. And La Senza, they were absolutely amazing to help me shop for my Christmas gifts, being patient with me. Dr. Kirk Adams: And helping. Sheldon Guy: Me to the register like I'm sending emails to their corporate office because they need to be highlighted that they're really reaching out. So the advocacy part, I don't know if that's my purpose to go out and fight for that and not even fight for it just to be an education tool for people that, you know, parking and you know, just certain things out there that, that just need a little bit more attention from, from from somebody that has a loud voice, like, not a small guy. I'm six feet, £220 because I lost £5. So and I'm athletic and I'm a black guy, so but that but that leads me into Mr. Adams. Some of the, the challenges that I go through and what I have to persevere. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah. Sheldon Guy: Some of the things that I have to persevere through are you know, on a monthly basis, you know, I'm called I'm, I'm a black guy, and I'm, I walk around my neighborhood and people call me the blind n word. Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, boy. Sheldon Guy: Or I'm in white Rock and people say, hey, can you see this? Dr. Kirk Adams: And they spit. Sheldon Guy: In my face and I'm like, no, I can't see that. I'm onto my second white cane because I was walking on a sidewalk and a gentleman thought that I was taking up too much of sidewalk. He grabbed my stick and broke it and gave it back to me. I've been hit by a truck because they feel like I should be in a wheelchair. And there's nothing wrong with being in a wheelchair, but they feel that's where I should be. And then just recently I was beaten up in New West let up a side street and beaten up by three guys because they wanted my backpack. Because without my cane, I look intimidating. Yeah, I'm big, strong. I'm athletic. Black guy. As soon as I pull up my cane, I'm vulnerable. And so I'm scared to go out there by myself. I'm nervous to go out there by myself, but I still do it. I still try to do it. And that's my. That's the part of the perseverance. So you touched on the purpose. I'm still working on the purpose part. The perseverance is that I have to persevere through every challenge that I had. I was fired from my last company because I was blind, because I lost my vision. They didn't want to admit to it, but I was fired because I was blind and I had to pivot from that. I had to find I had to seek new employment. You know, I'm not going to rely on government handouts. I'm an able bodied man that can get out there, and I've still got the talents. Even some of my customers, they absolutely love my perseverance. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: I'm still jumping on planes, trains and automobiles. Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm going to see them. Sheldon Guy: You know, I'm doing what I need to do. Dr. Kirk Adams: Do you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Want to talk? Do you want to talk a little bit about the company you're you're working with now or. Sheldon Guy: Well, no, I no, I'd rather not. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. That's fine. Sheldon Guy: But it's I do jump on planes, trains and automobiles. I've got some really great customers that are. I'm in the fitness industry, so a manufacturer of fitness equipment, and I'm. I'm my customers are just absolutely tickled pink about me just getting out there and doing what I need to do. Humboldt College in, in Ontario did a whole series on me on Instagram, and they interviewed me. So it's so it's very it's rewarding from that standpoint. But then now I'm being asked to speak. I'm being asked to share my story. And if I may, the sharing of the story isn't a monetized thing. I volunteer my time and I go and share my story. But what happens is I share my story and one grade eight girl will be sitting in the stands, and she'll wait for everybody to come up and give me a hug and do all that sort of stuff, and she wants to talk to me. And so the athletic director will guide me over to where she is, and I'll sit there and I talk to her for almost an hour about how she's feeling and how my story resonates with her and how she feels like she needs help, but she doesn't know how to ask. So when I share my story and I get one person like that coming. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Sheldon Guy: Maybe that's my purpose. Dr. Kirk Adams: Maybe my purpose. Sheldon Guy: Is to get my story out there. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheldon Guy: So that listen, you right now, I know your viewers are listening. They're not seeing. But you've got a six foot, £220 black guy sitting on your podcast crying at the beginning of this thing. I'm showing vulnerability. And when you show people vulnerability I have this saying it's okay not to be okay. And I find that it's fine. I'm learning through this whole journey that it's okay not to be okay. And if the tears need to come, the tears need to come. But when other people see it, they start to resonate and say, you know what? My life isn't so bad. And so when you have kids that come up and they see me talking and I'm shaking and I'm sweating and I'm crying. They come up and they say, hey, I have anxiety issues as well. And you just helped me through that by getting showing how you've got through it. So maybe that's my purpose. I'm not sure. But sharing my story every school, every organization. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheldon Guy: That's asking me to come share my story. It's like, I don't know. It's it's impactful. They're saying it's inspiring. I'm just living. But they're finding my story inspiring and impactful to their community. And I just talked to high school. They literally shut down the afternoon, and I had 2000 people in the gym listening to my sob story. So maybe that's my purpose. I'm not sure. Dr. Kirk Adams: But maybe that's. Dr. Kirk Adams: Maybe you discovered your purpose right here on the podcast. Dr. Kirk Adams: Maybe, maybe, maybe on. Sheldon Guy: Doctor Kirk Adams podcast. I certainly have, but, you know, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I was just going to say, so if people want to get in touch with you and talk to you about coming and speaking to their organization or their school, what's the best way for people to get in touch? Sheldon Guy: Well, right now it would just be I don't know. Am I allowed to share my information? Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Of course. Okay, so share. Dr. Kirk Adams: Share what you want to share. Sheldon Guy: Okay. So there's a there's a few avenues that you can follow me at. So on Instagram, you can follow me at improve her game. Remember the word. Yeah. Remember the word celebrations doctor Adams, because I. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheldon Guy: So they can follow me on improve her game on Instagram and on obviously on LinkedIn it's Sheldon Guy. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yep. Sheldon Guy: And s h e l d o n space g u y. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yep. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's how I found you. Sheldon Guy: That's it? Yeah. You can email me at my first name. Last name? So, Sheldon. Guy Hotmail.com. So no periods, no underscores. Just the straight first name. Last name at hotmail.com. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheldon Guy: Or you can phone me, which is pretty much the easiest way. Or telephone call at (604) 897-4607. And so yeah, I'm being asked, I think I got seven in January that I have to do. And 52 apparently 52 Catholic schools in Alberta want me to come out and share my story. Dr. Kirk Adams: So wonderful. Sheldon Guy: But I've done about 3035 shares right now. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great. Sheldon Guy: 35 schools and organizations and and yeah. So maybe that's my purpose, Mr. Adams, but I appreciate the platform that you're putting me on. Dr. Kirk Adams: Absolutely. We'll share this widely. And if if you're listening and you are part of an organization or, or aware of an organization that could benefit from Sheldon's story, please do reach out to him. This is his purpose to share his story. We just determined that. Yes. And if you want to get in touch with me, I have a website, Dr. Kirk. Kirk Adams, comm. You can reach me there, sign up for the newsletter, or you can find me on LinkedIn. Kirk Adams and Sheldon, this time flew by. I'm looking forward to speaking to you again. So let's check in midway through 2026 and see how how your purpose is evolving, how you're continuing to pivot, how you're continuing to persevere. I'd love to love to visit with you again and call. Call upon me anytime if I if I can be helpful to you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Absolutely. Well. Sheldon Guy: I just forgot before we conclude. Dr. Kirk Adams: The. Sheldon Guy: Celebration. Dr. Kirk Adams: Real quick. Yeah. Sheldon Guy: So I am just a couple kind of key things I am. I don't know if your listeners know what a Spartan Race is, but a and I don't know if Spartan Race is. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, I do not. Sheldon Guy: So it's a it's A5K obstacle race up a mountain. So you gotta go through 25 different obstacles. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Sheldon Guy: And up a mountain. So I am one of the very first blind athletes to compete in not one, but two Spartan races in the last two years. Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. Sheldon Guy: Never done that. And then I actually just competed this year in my friends fitness facility. It's called Fitness World Canada. And they held a Deca strong competition and again, it's an obstacle race and I am the only blind person that competed in that in Canada. And then this winter I'm going to be learning how to ski. I know there's other blind people that know how to ski, but I'm fully blind and I'm going to be learning how to ski. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good. Sheldon Guy: And and then there's a couple other things I'm going to be learning. Professional golf, blind golf. Dr. Kirk Adams: With. Sheldon Guy: Doctor or. No Coach Nitro. He's teaching me how to golf, and he says he can turn me into pro. We'll see about that. So I'm continuing to have these celebration wins. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great. Sheldon Guy: Try not to hold it down. But I do have my tough days, and it's okay not to be okay. So for the listeners, my final thing for the listeners out there, it's okay not to be okay. And please, if you have a minute, just Google Sheldon, Guy, W5 and pivot. I will also email Doctor Adams a link for it as well, but please just Google W5. Pivot is a 22 minute documentary that you can watch and make sure you have some tissue. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, Sheldon, it's snowing in the mountains right now, so there's there'll be good skiing for you. And it was just a pleasure to talk to you on podcast with Doctor Kirk Adams. For those of you listening, I look forward to next time. Take good care. Thank you. Sheldon. Sheldon Guy: Thank you. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Alyssa Dver, Founding CEO, Speaker, Educator, Motivator, Spokesperson, ERG Leadership Alliance https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-12-04-2025/ In this insightful episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams sits down with Alyssa Dver, Founder and CEO of the ERG Leadership Alliance, to explore how employee resource groups (ERGs) can drive both inclusion and business performance. Alyssa breaks down what ERGs are, why they're different from social clubs, and how volunteer leaders navigate the paradox of doing "extra" work that still has to align with business goals. She and Dr. Adams discuss the current backlash against DEI, the recent U.S. executive order that both constrains and reinforces the importance of inclusive ERGs, and why organizations that were already committed to DEI are now doubling down on ERGs as engines of belonging, innovation, and retention. Throughout the conversation, they connect ERGs directly to disability inclusion, emphasizing that disability crosses all demographics and that every ERG can and should be disability-ready. Alyssa also shares her personal journey, from a traditional marketing career to brain-science-based confidence research sparked by her son's neurological disability, and explains how belonging and psychological safety are literally "hardwired" performance factors in the brain. She and Dr. Adams connect this science to everyday workplace realities: when people feel safe and included, they think more clearly, collaborate better, and are more likely to raise tough issues or innovative ideas. Alyssa describes how the ERG Leadership Alliance supports organizations at every stage, starting, restarting, or optimizing ERGs, through research, training, tooling, and a global network of more than 100 million ERG participants. Dr. Adams closes by urging listeners, especially disability advocates and employers, to leverage ERGs as a powerful, practical mechanism to build truly inclusive workplaces and accelerate disability employment. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everyone, to another episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And I have with me today a remarkable person that I'm getting to know better and better who's doing great things in the world. Alyssa Dver. She's founder and CEO of the Leadership Alliance. Alyssa. Alyssa Dver: Remarkable. That's one of my favorite words. I would use that to describe you too. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, there we go. Well, I I'll. In full disclosure, Alyssa and I had a conversation about employee resource. Resource groups and the Leadership Alliance several weeks back, and the recording disappeared. So we're doing it again. But I'm going to call it a blessing in disguise, because so much has happened in the last last six weeks as our our topsy turvy world continues to turn. And so I wanted to touch on a couple of recent insights and get your take on it. Alyssa. Yeah, yeah. Before we do that, just to let people know I am Doctor Kirk Adams. I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind. Prior to that, the same roles at the Lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle. I have a consulting practice called Innovative Impact. Focus on fun, innovative, high impact projects that will lead to greater inclusion of people with disabilities. I have a PhD in leadership and change. My doctoral work was an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations and ergs. Employee resource groups came up quite often in my ethnographic interviews of blind people working in big companies. And in a in an appendix of my dissertation is called Journeys Through Rough Country, by the way, and you can find it by searching Journeys Through Rough Country by Kirk Adams. And in an appendix, I, I have a fictitious scenario when I'm talking, when I'm talking to parents of a young blind child who are very fearful about their child's future and very uncertain because like my parents, my my retinas detached when I was five. Dr. Kirk Adams: They had never met a blind person before. They didn't have any experience in that area. And most parents of blind kids don't. And so I, I focus on employment. So I this fictitious scenario is talking about employment and the things they would need to do in order to prepare their child to be successful in the world of employment and be independent and to be able to thrive in the way that that they want wanted to thrive. And we talked about developmental stages and having kids. Do the blind kids do the same stuff other kids do? You know, for four year olds playing on the playground and playing in the sandbox, and the blind kid should be in there, you know, fighting over the toys with the sighted kids and, you know, the 12, 12, 13 year old kids going to meet their friends you know, at the mall or wherever. The kid needs to have the orientation, mobility, skills and the confidence to be able to go and independently join them. And you know, we talked about early work experience, and then we talked about the expanded core curriculum, which is the great news that blind kids get to hear in school, which says you have to learn all the things the sighted kid learn, sighted kids learn. Dr. Kirk Adams: And these nine other things like orientation, mobility skills and use of assistive technology and self-advocacy skills and you know, work, workplace and career awareness and development. And then we talked about the workplace, and I talked about you know, some of the things to look for when you're when your child is going to be looking for work. Is disability inclusion formally stated at a leadership level by, by the company? Do they have a centralized accommodations process and budget? And do they do they have a employee resource group focused on disability inclusion? And that is one of the signs of a potentially good workplace for a person with a disability is to have that erg. So ergs. Ergs have been present in my mind as an important piece of the employment picture. And as most of you listening probably are aware, only 35% of us with significant disabilities are in the workforce. We're in a much narrower band of occupations. We tend to stick closer to the bottom of the org chart. A majority of us work for non-profits or government where awesome places to work, salaries and incomes are limited there. And so when I encountered Alyssa and had an opportunity to to talk about ERGs in a larger context and to talk about how intersectional intersectionality plays a part, that disability knows no demographic boundaries and covers all demographic characteristics. Dr. Kirk Adams: And how can we make all employee resource groups inclusive of people with disabilities? Just really started to unpeel an onion here. And then in the last last week there was a study that came out about Gen Z people in the workforce and the very dim view they have of their future in the workplace. Compared to past generations, as far as their what their opportunities are going to look like. And then disability in came out with a study just this week that showed that using data drawn from LinkedIn that in order to advance in careers, people with disabilities need to change employers more often than people without disabilities in order to have upward mobility. So all kinds of factors and dynamics and I'll just say the the full frontal assault on diversity, equity, equity and inclusion. And I know when we spoke last, Alyssa, you said that in response to that, there seems to be more interest than ever and more engagement and more momentum and traction around ergs than ever before. So with, with with that blast of words from me, I'd like to just turn it over to you, Alyssa, to, to ask if you could tell us a little bit about your journey and how you became defined found the ERG leadership Alliance. And what you're doing, what you're seeing. Any reflections on on any of those things I've said and anything else you want to share? Alyssa Dver: Oh, wow. Well, thank you for that. Well, let's first ERG for anyone who's listening that doesn't know what an ERG is. Employee resource group is what it represents, and there's at least 40 or 50 names. I've lost track that they go by that are not erg. It could be ERG nrg erg. We've seen associate resource group and inclusion resource group and you name it business resource group of course is very popular. But there's also employee networks, which is very popular in the UK as the moniker. So, you know, they are groups, associations as we say traditionally set up like any kind of an association where you have volunteer leaders. The difference between what these are is that they are within a bigger entity. And the entity could be a for profit, non-profit, academic government entity. They do get funding from that entity, some funding. They are governed. In other words, they have rules and directions and plans and things that they live by and operate by. And then they're also accountable to the entity in terms of, well, I gave you X number of dollars, what did I get in return? And that's the difference between an ERG or any kind of employee group versus a club. There's another type of group called affinity group that sometimes can be either a club or an erg. It's very confusing. And sometimes companies have a little bit of each, but an ERG by definition as an association comes with some interesting characteristics. I mentioned that the volunteer, the leaders are volunteers, so they have a job in that entity. Maybe they're an accountant or a marketer or you know, a know, delivery person, whatever it might be. Alyssa Dver: And then they also have this role as a group leader or on the leadership team. And that leadership team role is, by and large, voluntary. They don't usually get paid very unusually get paid, in fact in paid could be a spot bonus or a gift card. So just, you know, having a volunteer set of leaders, if you've ever run a nonprofit, you know, it's a different beast, right? You have to motivate people that you don't really have any authority over, per se. But it's a very different set of leadership skills. It also is a little tricky to navigate. Even your boss, if you're, you know, a group leader, you report to somebody who has PNL in some way, you know, profit and loss responsibility. So you have to kind of negotiate with them. This is the amount of time that I'm going to be doing this ERG work. And this is why it's important to me as an individual and professional development, and this is how it's going to contribute to my regular job. So there's a lot of nuances in paradoxes in this space. And again, we're not going to go into all of them today. But ERG has been around since the 1960s. And for the large part of their history, people kind of just assumed they were social clubs, that they were there to support people who needed support. Typically people would say they're for underrepresented groups. Underrepresented could be, of course, disability individuals. It could be people who are black people or Hispanic women. But I always said that it may have started for those reasons, but even long back, some of the original groups had nothing to do with underserved populations. Alyssa Dver: You see a lot of young professionals, groups, Gen X, for example, you see, and Gen Z for that matter. You see you know, religious groups, Bible study groups, Jewish groups, Muslim groups you see groups for hobbies, groups for and I say religious but interfaith. And, you know, I have a hard time saying that a young professionals, interfaith, even caregivers groups, those are not underrepresented by definition. They never have been. So the commonality is that there's an affinity. There's something that they all share, that they feel that they want to get liked minded people to discuss share their experiences, share their frustration, share their victories, even with and then advocate for the things that they need in the workplace. And of course, disabilities. Groups tend to advocate for tools and, and functionality in their business, you know, day to day business, whether it's furniture and ramps or translators captions, things like that. But it goes well beyond that. It goes into what do you need for benefits? You know, how can I better participate in meetings? Where you know, other individuals aren't making those kind of accommodations for me. You know, I need to have somebody basically make sure that those are in place. So advocacy. Big deal. As well as as supporting the business. You know, maybe the business does have a need to develop new products, whether they're accessibility products or not. You know, every single group, particularly the disabilities group, should have some way to say, hey, well, if it did this, I could use it better, right? So all many, many ways. And again I'm skimming the surface here. So the thing that attracted me. Dr. Kirk Adams: So question. So you said early, early on that these are not a club, these groups, you're going to use ERG as the umbrella term to cover the 200 different terms. They're they exist to meet strategic business objectives, to help the business operate more effectively. Be be a better, stronger organization. So does that have to do with allowing people to bring their best selves to work? Is it around belonging? Is it around psychological safety? I imagine if you wanted to do metrics, you might think about turnover or absenteeism or innovation. So I'm just curious. I'm just curious about what what are some of the kind of proven I guess our ROI type outcomes that result from good, effective ERGs being in place? Alyssa Dver: Well, you know, you started kind of the conversation by saying there's been a lot of change this year. And no kidding, right? And one of the things that, you know, with the directive in the US, the executive director on Dei. Everyone kind of panicked and said, well, you know, what do we what's going to happen to ERGs? Well, it turns out in the directive, it actually encourages people to have ERGs. But it's very clear about making sure that that ERG is that every year G is inclusive. So inclusivity isn't just allowing people to participate in programming. You know, I have a session on you know, presentation skills. Everybody should be allowed to come. Sure. But if I'm talking in a women's group on menopause pre directive, I could say this particular topic is for members only. Right. So I could basically exclude people. You can't do that anymore. You can't you can't have only leaders or even executive sponsors for that matter where you say only people of this type. You know, if I'm the black group, the leaders have to be black. No, you can't, because what the director basically said is you have to make it so that if this is something that helps people and the company is spending money on it, it has to be available to everybody. And leadership opportunity is considered something positive. So needless to say, the inclusivity of it was really what was called out and continues to be the the thing that we need to make sure all groups are open and available to everyone and everything that they do. With that said, the history of the groups again started with underserved populations, but very quickly became recognized for ways to people to connect and find friends and belong. Alyssa Dver: And, you know, my background comes from that brain science circling around confidence. So that was what attracted me to these groups in the first place. I looked at them and I said, wow, this is where people can find a sense of belonging in the workplace. Place. But at the time when I was really kind of pondering this about 2017, 2018, there really wasn't any organization around them. So different companies had them. They were very random, and the way they were run, the random in the kinds of types that they were the there really wasn't anyone in the organization that was chartered to kind of keep an eye on them or kind of make them a little bit more consistent across groups. And there wasn't really an industry. So, you know, I started the ERG Leadership Alliance as a way to try and formalize things, but more importantly, get people talking to start setting up some sense of benchmarks, some sense of governance, and really professionalize it into an industry. And, you know, again, maybe fortunately, in some sad way when we got into Covid, people were remote. They needed that sense of belonging desperately. We had Black Lives matters. It became, okay, how do we make sure people's voices and their need to express themselves? In safe spaces. We had a series of other unfortunate situations that kind of, again, encouraged people in the workplace to say, we need to have people feeling safe, psychologically safe and belonging. So the ERGs got kind of a lift out of all of that. Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. Alyssa Dver: With the executive order, as you kind of said earlier, you know, I did say on our last recording that we got a lift out of it, right. Alyssa Dver: What what I think is true. And we saw this back also in the same pattern when corporate social responsibility CSR was kind of the rage. Yeah. Is organizations that are committed to it to begin with. Like it's part of their DNA. The founder says we are going to do you know, this is who we are. You know, it could be, you know, organizations that whether or not their products or their services even aligned, it was just part of their who their identity. Csr and again with Dei. Those are the ones that have said we are doubling down because we know that this is really important to keep our employees motivated and productive. And the ROI numbers speak for themselves. We we know that employees that are more engaged have higher levels of productivity, and we know how much we know how much more profit they contribute. And they and these organizations have stuck by that. Unfortunately, the ones that never were committed got permission to basically let go of the wheel and be like, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do Dei at all. And ERGs are part of Dei. So we're, you know, we're going to either downsize or we're going to get rid of them. And that's a shame because, you know, it's a shame for those employees. I feel sad for them. I also feel sad for the organization as a whole, because I think when the pendulum swings, which it always does, they're going to be caught with their pants down, as the saying goes, right? They're going to be scrambling to fix the situation. And ERGs aren't there just for the sake of underrepresented groups. As we've said over and over again, already there for the sake of having employees know that they matter. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. So you you you said and it's true, I, I'm aware of your background, brain science and confidence, but the people listening are not. So I would love to take a step back and have you talk about that part of your life a bit. Alyssa Dver: Well, you know, I, I followed a very standard, I would say standard, typical path in terms of, you know, college education, dabbled in a couple of things, found marketing interesting, went into marketing, became part of many corporate engines. I was the chief marketing officer, ultimately of a couple companies, both public and startups. And, you know, I can't say it was bad experience. I don't I, you know, but at the same time, I always knew that it was just a job. Right. And and like, you spend so much time at work and working that I. And I'm like one of these, you know, workaholic types. So I kept saying, there's got to be more than this. And you get to the top of the ladder and you're like, wait a minute. The view's not any better here. In fact, it's it's there's more pressure, right? So without getting into gory details, I kind of always had that itch for something that was more than just a job. And on top of it at a point in my life, my son, who was eight at the time, was diagnosed with a neurological condition. That causes his hand. I say neurological condition. It is a true disability. It's a physical disability. It's not always visible because it's in his arms. And his hands in the sense that you go to shake his hand, you will see tremors. Alyssa Dver: You hand them a bottle of water, you're going to see tremors. But if he's just standing talking to you or teaching tennis, which he's learned to do as a tennis pro you aren't going to necessarily know he has a disability. So it's an interesting conversation about visible and not visible disabilities. We have a lot. Suffice to say, that triggered me to really dig into brain science because after several years of trying to get more information and answers and understanding from all these neurological experts, I realized that they didn't have the answers. They thought they had ideas, and they would look at me with confidence and say, do this, do that. And then when I would ask questions, the confidence would peel apart because I couldn't understand why they were slowing his brain down or shooting Botox, which is actually poison, right? Toxic into toxin into his arms to kill muscles. I was like, I don't understand, just explain. You know, the naive mom here, like I was a marketer. And mom, what did I know, right? And so it just triggered me to say, I got to figure this stuff out better and learned a lot about brain science at the pinnacle time, where functional MRI were finally now being used in research to explain specifically where and how in the brain things are happening, emotions and motor skills. Alyssa Dver: And lo and behold, things like confidence and decision making. So it was serendipitous. Again, another one of these situations seems to be our theme for this. It's like, you know, bad reason, but great. Aside, I don't even want to call it a silver lining. I think it was just like a whole path that was carved there and followed that to understand how the brain works. And so, you know, belonging and this need to belong, which is dates back to Abraham Maslow in 1940s. Right. That's when he coined it. In terms of the brain science. And what I learned is everybody needs belonging. Everybody, including the CEO. And so when that is starved, when we don't have belonging aka psychological safety could be somewhat of a synonym. You know, we act like literally cave people because that's the part of our brain that gets activated. And so the, you know, the microaggressions, the fear, the all the defensiveness, the quietness, the the things that go into survival mode, that's not good. That's not good collaboration, teamwork, happy, authentic employees. And so I knew that. And that's why when I was presenting to so many of these ERGs, the science of confidence and I started learning about the ERGs, I was like, hey, we can create more belonging at work if we get these groups in better order. Dr. Kirk Adams: So confidence and belonging interrelate I'm guessing. Alyssa Dver: Absolutely. Because confidence at the core of confidence. You know, my book, my last book on confidence was confidence is a choice because it is. You make a decision if you're confident or not about something. And so confident or not that I can be my authentic self, confident or not, that I can say what I want to say in this meeting. I'm not going to get fired or berated, you know, confident enough or not to go and ask for that raise. Right? So if you're not, if you don't feel that you belong, if you don't feel psychologically safe, safe you it's really that decision is going to be like, I'm not I'm not going to ask. I'm not going to do it right. But if you have all that sense of belonging you actually are starting to operate now in your prefrontal cortex because you feel, you know what, I can do this. And how do I want to do it? What's the best way to do it? You get all that additional cognitive juice there to really make a better approach. Once you've made the decision that you're going to do it. But if you don't have that psychological safety, you're not even going to try. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? So you're not always in fight or flight. Alyssa Dver: Yeah, right. Well, fight or flight, you know, all that survival mechanism is in your brainstem. It's. You're not thinking, you're reacting. You know, you're responding to the fear in the way that is going to keep you safest. So when we operate in a place that we don't have belonging, where we don't have that sense of safety we're really not thinking. And I don't know about you, but I don't think I want to have a team of people who aren't thinking. Dr. Kirk Adams: No. Alyssa Dver: I mean, it doesn't matter what the job is, you know, let her, you know, air traffic control all the way down to, you know, just painting the walls like you want people thinking. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I don't know if this relates. Well, I'm sure sure it does. And I don't know if you've thought thought a lot about it, but I was asked to just yesterday to identify some potential topics for seminars next year for an Organization I'm part of called the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion, based here in Seattle. And I'm on the board and I talked about how do we operate effectively as organizations in an environment where some of our essential institutions are intentionally creating fear and uncertainty, which which is something that's happening. And I can imagine a well structured, effective ERG can be a mechanism that can allow a company, a nonprofit to operate. On a, on a more even keel in most turbulent times. Does that is that a fair thing to think about? Alyssa Dver: Absolutely. I mean, this is not a political statement, but think about it. If you're deliberately putting people in a state of fear, it's because you don't want them to think. You want them to react, you want them to behave or follow whatever you're telling them to do because they're scared, right? And there's a bazillion different examples of doing that, not just the edicts of the government or or CEOs. Right. But cultures that are built like that. I said, you know, there's kind of like this organic culture that would say, look, we want you to come your full, authentic self to work. We want to support you. There are cultures out there that are like that, maybe not as many as you and I would like, but there are out there. There's many that are just the opposite, right? You have to do this. You have to dress this way. You have to say this. And we're not going to reward people who do that. Like. And that's part of their culture. Part of their culture may be, you know, when somebody senior walks in the room, you don't say anything, you know, and I think, you know, my comment before about paying my corporate dues, you know, I didn't have I wasn't aware maybe it's because I was a lot younger then of organizations that I was part of that did that. But needless to say, I always felt as a young woman I had to be careful, right? And I think that just, you know, if being careful takes 20% of my cognitive cycles, that's a waste. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Dr. Kirk Adams: So let's talk about the ERG Leadership Alliance a bit. And what what what is it if people are part of the alliance? What what does that mean to them? Either individuals or organizations. Anything you want to share about the alliance itself? Alyssa Dver: Grateful. Thank you for asking. So 2019, as I mentioned, we started with kind of an invitation for people to come talk about ERGs. And here we are. Through all the chaos of the last several years we have over 25,000 organizations that participate. Anticipate. They are every kind of size and shape. And we're very global. We have members all over the world as well as our team now is all over the world. So it's very exciting and complicated at the same time. Dr. Kirk Adams: So are the members, the ERGs themselves, the parent organization, both individuals who are involved in ERGs, who are the members? Alyssa Dver: Yeah, a little bit of all the above, but we tend. Alyssa Dver: To have three different types. They're all employees of whatever organization, but they might be group leaders. They might be the oversight managers. These are the people who get paid to actually oversee and manage the groups as a whole. And executive sponsors and executive sponsors tend to be director or higher up into the C-suite. Both they and the group leaders are typically on some kind of a term limit. That is, you know, maybe two years, which is what the average is. So you have a constant change of those kinds of leadership. Both those kinds of leadership roles. So those are those those are kind of the key people, allies, of course, anybody who just wants to be supportive of these types of people and groups we do, of course, have plenty of allies involved as well. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful. Dr. Kirk Adams: And what is the experience of these members? What what what are they what is their engagement in interaction with the leadership alliance like? Alyssa Dver: Well, it can really vary, right? So sometimes it just might be. They've come to one of our training sessions in ERG University, which is our public training offering, or they've hired us to come in and support one of their internal summits or an event, or it could be a lot of different ways in that we have also online resources and things like that. So sometimes people just, you know, self serve. But I would say the reason why people like being part of the alliance is twofold. One, we do a lot of Research and we give a lot of data and information for free. So just being on our mailing list, they get a lot of value in that because they get all those events and resources to them which can really help them with asking for budget and crafting the right kinds of programming and just doing their jobs as ERG leaders and managers and sponsors better. The other reason they do it, and I think we'll all kind of giggle a little bit, but it makes so much sense, is to commiserate, right? Because the work of any kind of you pick their favorite letter, the D, the E or the I, right? It's hard work. You're dealing with people and their biases. You're dealing with people and their fears in in all different ways. And it can be exhausting, frustrating. It certainly didn't get easier this year. And so the ability to know that you have other people dealing with that, you know, I say to people almost every time, like, guess how many people are in ERGs today around the world. Right. I do is like, just kind of an opener, an icebreaker. And, you know, we get answers. A million, 10,000. And I say, you know, there's over 100 million people in ergs today. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wow. Alyssa Dver: Over 100 million. And that's one of the most conservative numbers. When I break it down for people in my gut, I think it's probably 3 to 5 times higher than that. Right? Dr. Kirk Adams: So that's all I was going to say 25. Alyssa Dver: So 25 million. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Alyssa Dver: That's yeah I mean it's it's at least 100 million. We know that I can share those numbers. It just, you know, there's a lot of people doing the work dealing with the same issues we are around the world. And when you talk to, you know, we just did a webinar earlier today, I had, you know, about 300 people there. And you ask them a simple question like, you know, how many of you are I don't know. We asked like so many today, but like, how many of you feel like your senior leaders don't get it yet? At, you know, and everyone on there says yes or no or whatever. At least you know that you're not dealing with the same situation. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right, right, right. Alyssa Dver: So that's the commiseration. I said, you know, we educate for sure, but we also do a lot of commiseration. So. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So in October, I had the privilege to spend the afternoon with a fairly newly formed, disability focused ERG at Russell Investments, which is based here in Seattle. Hats off to Russell Investments for starting the group. Yeah. And so if people are listening to this and they're with in an organization who think that ERG thing might really be helpful to me and the colleagues in this organization. Do you help people get started? Alyssa Dver: Yeah. We do. In fact, we have a lot of all kinds of things that we can help you with. But, you know, one of the things that first and foremost is, you know, get on our website, it's the ERG Leadership alliance. Com. And we give away the book which is the G intelligence book, and it's a very small book, very quick read, but it'll tell you like what these groups are and what are the key phrases and stuff. But in the back of it is also a template to kind of start your governance work, because if you don't have ERGs, you're in a beautiful spot to really start them right. And it's actually a lot easier to start them and do them right than try and fix them later. Dr. Kirk Adams: So it's easier to put the blueberries in the batter before you bake the muffins, right? Alyssa Dver: For sure. But you know, that template can really start to you know, give you the questions and information that you need to get started with that. And of course, let us know. And we can provide all kinds of support. Otherwise to get ERGs going, we help a lot of organizations restart their ERGs as well. They have a program and it's just not working. So they have to restart it. And then there's also groups that are, you know, been running for a long time, and they're kind of like, yeah, we've been doing a good job, but we want to step it up. What can we do? So, you know, start, restart or optimize. We we have a wonderful staff. Everybody on the team has been an ERG leader or manager. They're very well trained. We have global people. We have we support multiple languages even. So, you know, whatever. You need just at least let us know. And we probably if we can't do it, we know somebody who can. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So every interaction I've had with Alyssa, her team ERG Leadership Alliance has been top tier. So I unreservedly urge you to reach out, go to the ERG Leadership Alliance website. Get in touch if you think they can be helpful to you in moving your mission forward. And, Alyssa, I just really appreciate you your graciousness and patience and our, our, our our second and successful attempt at recording this podcast. And if anyone wants to get in touch with me, I'm easily found on LinkedIn. Kirk Adams and my website is Doctor Adams. Com. And thank you so much for listening to this awesome episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams, and we will see you next time. And thanks so much, Alyssa. Alyssa Dver: My pleasure. Thank you. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Academy.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Ssanyu Birigwa, M.S., Co-Founder, Narrative Bridge https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-11-05-2025/ In this illuminating episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk shares how a stressful season leading the American Foundation for the Blind and pursuing his PhD led him to the healing work of guest Ssanyu Birigwa. He recalls powerful half-day sessions in New York that began with reflective writing and moved into energy practices like the hara seven-minute meditation, creating "energy bodies" with the hands, and chakra work. Those tools, which he still uses most mornings, helped him re-center, move from heaviness to lightness, and live with greater intention and body awareness. Birigwa, co-founder of Narrative Bridge, weaves her lineage as an 80th-generation Ugandan bone healer with her roles in narrative medicine at Columbia University and research on clinician well-being. She explains her Pause Three method, gratitude, intention, forgiveness, which downshifts the nervous system in under three minutes, then shows how story, slow reflection, and deep listening build trust inside teams. The conversation connects personal healing to organizational change, reframing "wealth" as health, relationships, spirit, and material capacity leaders can actually hold. Listeners leave with a palpable invitation to pause, tell truer stories, and align values with daily practice at work. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have the most special guest I've had so far, a very important person in my life named Sonya Gregoire. And Ssanyu is co-founder and CEO of Narrative Bridge. She is an architect of systemic transformation frameworks that enable organizations to operate with authentic alignment between their stated values and their daily practices. And the more organizations who can do that, the better for all of us. Ssanyu, if you just could say hi, then I'll talk a little bit about how awesome you are. I'll turn it back over to you. Ssanyu Birigwa: Thank you. Kirk. Hello everyone. It is a deep pleasure to be here with you and your audience. Just having the opportunity to connect is really important, especially during times of such change that we are all feeling, you know, beyond what I think we can describe with words. Thank you for having me. Ssanyu Birigwa: All right. Dr. Kirk Adams: So as many of you may know, I am a totally blind person. Have been since age five, when my retina is detached and had a lot of surgeries, unsuccessful, painful surgeries, a lot of hospitalization between age five and 12, which, of course, I didn't think of it as childhood trauma at the time. But now now I know I experience some significant childhood trauma. Went to a school for blind kids for second and third grade and then into public school where it was sink or swim. I was always the only blind student. And I had a family that really did some great things for me, including holding high expectations for me and treating me on an equal footing with my sighted siblings. Didn't didn't attend to a lot of psychosocial elements of having a significant disability and weren't equipped to do that, but made my way through school and got an academic scholarship and went to college. And then you know, had a lot of challenges around finding meaningful employment, as so many of us do, with only 35% of us in with significant disabilities in the workforce. But but made my way and with a lot of support from a lot of great people with a big investment by the lighthouse for the blind, Inc. here in Seattle and my professional development, I was was able to become the president and CEO of of that organization here in Seattle. Dr. Kirk Adams: And then I was hired by the American Foundation for the Blind AFB, Helen Keller's organization, to take on those same roles for AFB and lead them through a financial turnaround and an organizational transformation which involves strategic planning and restructuring and doing lots of hard things like eliminating positions and closing programs and the hard things that needed to be done. So in the midst of all that, I, before I was hired by FBI, started a PhD program, a PhD in leadership and change through Antioch University. So I was in the middle of that dissertation process. My wife, Roz, and I moved from Seattle to New York City and lived in a tiny apartment in Park Slope in Brooklyn. I learned how to take the F train to the A train up Penn Station, up to the office at two Penn Plaza. And we lived there about a year and a half. Our strategic plan led us to relocate our headquarters to the Washington, D.C. area. So we moved again to Arlington, Virginia, and was working there. Culture shock for a person born and lived always in the Pacific Northwest and a weather shock, the hot, humid summers and Virginia in particular, and the very cold winters. We did not own enough clothes, but I was attending to implementing the strategic plan very assiduously. Dr. Kirk Adams: I was working on my PhD work, and I would get up every morning and kind of prepare for the day. And I got in the habit of listening to podcasts when I when I was getting ready. I use a great app that's very accessible for people who are blind called eye catcher. And I would just put in a keyword in the search engine and kind of go down the list of what popped up and just tap on something that kind of resonated with me that that morning. And I honestly don't remember the podcast, but the guest was Ssanyu. Gregoire and the host had spent some time with you, Ssanyu, and had had had some experiences with the healing work that you do. And she said, after my session with you, I could just feel all. I was just cleared of all the mucky muck. I remember that phrase, and I said, that's what I need because I feel like I am in quicksand. So I emailed the host and said, I'd like to talk to you, Ssanyu. And she can she emailed you and said, this dude, this dude reached out and he wants to talk to you. So you kindly set up a phone appointment, and we talked for about half an hour, and we determined that it would would be a good fit for us to work together. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I remember having an experience with you at the Four Points by Sheraton and Chelsea on 25th, and we spent about four hours together. And you started out by reading a poem to me and asking me to write a reflection. And I read you my reflection, and that led us into a deep conversation. And then, you know, you took it from there. And we had several of those kind of half day sessions in person. And so one of one of the greatest memories I have is you know, you didn't touch me with your hands, but you were you were moving stuff around. I can feel it in my body. I could feel things opening and loosening, and I could feel energy flowing like it hadn't in a long, long while. And then you and I had a regular virtual series of virtual sessions, and you taught me a number of things. I the horror meditation, the seven minute meditation. I did it this morning. Lit the palo santo, did the meditation. I probably do that five out of seven days a week. And you taught me how to create energy bodies with my hands and move that energy into my chakras, which I, I remember the first time you taught me how to do that. I said, that's trippy. Yes. I said something like, it's real. Ssanyu Birigwa: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: We're not making this stuff up. Yeah. So, you know, you really had a huge impact on the way I live as far as thoughtfulness and intention and paying attention to energy and paying attention to my body and using some of the techniques that you taught me. And now a blessing to the world. You are taking this knowledge and wisdom. Your cultural heritage, what you've learned academically, what you've learned from experience and others. And you're taking it into what I would call the organizational development world. And I would just love to hand the microphone over to you. I'd love to hear, hear about your journey. I learned I learned some bits and pieces along our our time together, but we'd love to just have you recount to the people listening the journey that's brought you to the place you are now and how what what is the present like for you and and your vision of of the future? And what what's working well for you? And if there are any challenges. I would love to have you tell people how they can get in touch with you, so I will I will hand you the talking stick. I will reserve the right as a host to pop in with the question from from time to time. But please, please tell tell. Tell us the the legend of Sonja. Ssanyu Birigwa: Kirk. Thank you. I have to say, you are a great storyteller. And listening to your reflections, listening to the ways in which. The offerings that were placed between us has continued to be truly of support. And I'd even say service to your own well-being, which I know has expanded out to the people that you love and care about, work with, connect with. And that's that, that's that's that. That is what I hope to be able to infuse in the world as my passion is to create healthier communities. And we can't do that until we've actually taken a good look at the eye, our personal self, and to listen to you in your journey. Just made me smile and made me laugh. It brought me back to those moments in person with you. And I loved how you said she wasn't touching me. That that is true. And not. There are a few moments where I would have to. I feel the energy, especially when we're able to be with the physical body. Needed the the place of holding and listening to a story a family member shared with me recently about meeting an older woman who was being helped in the car to put her seatbelt on, and she held the person's hand tightly before they let go of having put the seatbelt on her. And she said, hold on a while. I haven't touched a person in five years. Ssanyu Birigwa: Wow. Ssanyu Birigwa: And it makes me think about why we do also need touch, and also to how when we focus in on the connection between the self and other, the thought in itself is almost as powerful as touch. So thank you for sharing those moments of of reflection that we've had together. I am an 80th generation healer from Uganda. And what this lineage has taught me about Western medicine. Has taken me probably the last five years to really deepen my understanding of how the nervous system determines what we can hold. And what do I mean about what can we hold? Well, right now. I am doing a lot of research and. Understanding through being a lecturer and adjunct professor of narrative medicine at Columbia University and this lecture that I teach every spring at the medical school spirituality and health is around the self to have the ability to listen so we can be fully present with the other. And in this case, whilst I teach, it's it's, you know, the physician and patient. But what I've trained to understand that has taken me beyond narrative medicine and the clinical understanding and the research that I'm doing. With University of Michigan, to be specific, around the support we can give through narrative medicine practice to doctors who do telehealth visits. There's a lot that is happening with the AI telehealth connection and building healthier communities. That narrative medicine practice really helps to embolden and support the well-being of the physician. And so, as I've steeped my my experience in teaching and research and also experimenting and connecting what I understand about my lineage to help those. Connect, sometimes Extract, sometimes dissolve, sometimes just recognize the stories that live in our bones. And my clan of the bone healers now know the potency that which our body holds information. Ssanyu Birigwa: And it's been almost a decade or so since I've created and built what I call narrative Bridge. And it began with my colleague and dear friend cohort from Columbia whilst we were in grad school. Us to really look at how to bring leadership into healthcare. But first, we needed an entryway and that entryway into leadership and support of the healthcare systems and individuals who are a part of the system Is the framework of narrative medicine, which is the paying attention to oneself so they can pay attention to the other, to. Then, once that connection is made of observation, one creates an understanding of who is before them. And that one I speak is the clinician or the leader or. The mother? The father. It's all of us. We are that one who, when we are able to deeply listen to ourselves, we are able to listen to the other. And somewhere in that process, trust is developed. And once we create that trust and that deep listening, that happens when we are present in the moment with the other. So much can happen. And in terms of the health care field healing, specifically healing, connection information being exchanged. Begins to support that container. And people will then begin to have positive stories to tell, whether it's within the health care space or technology or equity and diversity and inclusion, wherever that might be. We are building trust. And so where I understand we need a protocol. Allowed me to deepen into creating the pause three method, which Kirk, I know that we worked with quite a bit. It's usually how I like to set the tone, and the tone is deepening into a gratitude state to create an intention for ourselves, or maybe for our community. Dr. Kirk Adams: So for those who haven't had the experience, can you describe the pause three method a bit? Ssanyu Birigwa: Yes. So there are three parts and I call it the GIF. I was trying to be a little cheeky so GIF. Ssanyu Birigwa: Yeah. Ssanyu Birigwa: And it's based in gratitude intention making and forgiveness. And as this protocol is enacted within our nervous system, mindfully we downshift this nervous system in under three minutes. And we've practiced this. I've trained different clinicians and physicians in this. And my students, I. I offer this as a tool to learn how to evoke, literally within the body, what it feels like to be in gratitude, to then shift into a moment of presence within ourselves, to create an intention and to use our imagination to feel into what it would feel like to be in action of that very intention. And from that, there's the forgiveness. We all make mistakes. We are not perfect, and we can be very honest with ourselves and the other and take accountability. And part of that accountability is also then to forgive ourselves and then release, not to hold on to these bags of shame and, and discomfort that which actually creates literally disease within the body that then can manifest oftentimes into something very real that a clinician, a doctor, needs to pay attention to. We all have read different, you know I think, you know, many of us have read different articles and or if you're really into the science of mindfulness but also energy and also how oxygen, when brought into the body at certain rhythms, can literally change the molecules in our bodies and create healing. So the method is based on science and also the ability to tap into something that some might call woo woo. And I have a student who, who, who really stands in that space of saying, yes, I am woo woo. Well, what if we made the woo woo natural and normal? What would it look like for us to accept that we are energy that we can feel and address, some of which we may never have addressed before through the lens of story? Ssanyu Birigwa: Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: And that that that resonates with me and my experience. And when you said narrative medicine and what I, what I thought about was the elements of our time together, where you would read me a piece, read me a poem, and ask me to write a reflection and read that back to you that led to it, led to a dialogue. And I think you just said something about a feeling. I don't know if you just said feeling things you haven't felt before or realizations you haven't realized before, but I, I certainly had that experience. Ssanyu Birigwa: Yes. Ssanyu Birigwa: And we say in narrative medicine practice that this is not therapy, but it does feel therapeutic. And I think that's what the intention is. When we tell stories. I've witnessed actually that is the intention that we are holding within when we are telling our own personal stories, whether it's comfortable or not, to share that story and what we're seeing. And when I say we my colleagues, those who I've worked with beyond the institution and teaching at Columbia but when facilitating trust building for executive teams or running wellbeing initiatives for hospital systems. Something keeps shifting, and I keep meeting leaders who've who've built not just material wealth, but really the wealth of of their wellbeing systems, family, you know, connection. And still there there's a piece of misalignment. Because in these four areas that I call this wealth frequency that I bring into leadership teams we, we sometimes feel depleted. Ssanyu Birigwa: And what are the four? Ssanyu Birigwa: So where I, I begin is understanding wealth frequency from the lens of how wealth in itself can also be an extractor if we're not understanding, you know, where we might be depleted. And it's not about bringing in more tools to find, you know, ways to connect to the to the body. But it's it's more about refining. And so the four areas or I'll start with the three right now is health is relational. So the health, you know, we have our physical health, you know, we work out maybe we we eat well, eat clean, as one might say. But sometimes our nervous system is in disharmony. We might feel often that we are oscillating between fight or flight maybe having a hard time resting. What I'm witnessing in leaders that I work with is this piece of health. Because the material wealth. And that's the fourth, the material wealth, actual money is there. However, perhaps there's a little more attention that needs to be placed on the health frequency, which I just spoke about. But then there's that relational, you know, our family is intact. You know, we we are in loving relationships. But maybe there's a shift that's needing to be had in, in our work. Perhaps you might be noticing and what I've witnessed and many people that I've worked with in the last, I would say 3 to 5 years that the relationships at work are, are a bit more extractive than they used to be. Ssanyu Birigwa: There's more of this giving, giving, giving and less reciprocity. And I also believe it's the time in which we are in globally. There's there's a global shift happening. And then there's the spiritual. Sometimes we are disconnected to knowing ourselves. Not like knowing who we are. Who are we? You can see the signs sometimes through, often a link to the work that one does where you're feeling the need to shift and change. Maybe not necessarily leave the organization that you work for. Or if you're an entrepreneur, you know, you know, just, you know, bag your, you know, your endeavors and start something new. But a reiteration maybe we are seeing the signs, the individuals seeing and feeling the signs. But maybe there's a bit of distrust within ourselves. Whereby we don't actually act upon what one might call intuition and also real lived experiences. And so what I'm, I, I'm really focused in on and bridging into leadership and development is that most people think wealth is what you make. But wealth is actually what you can hold and what you described. Kirk, in the beginning of telling us stories that connect to how we met and what we did together, is you learned not only how to hold your wealth frequency, which is the material, the health, the relationship, the relationship, and also the spiritual wealth, but also to learn how to move energy, to feel better, to feel good. And so that's that's where I. Live. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I think of it I think of it as feeling light, like after the time we had together. And I just felt light like a, a a lightness or the absence of heaviness, I guess. But, you know, the, you know, some of the things that you taught me to do I can bring, I can bring that that condition that that those dynamics back you know, to some degree, probably probably not as light as after four hours. You in person? Sure. Ssanyu Birigwa: But I. Dr. Kirk Adams: Can make. Ssanyu Birigwa: That. Dr. Kirk Adams: I can make myself. I can make myself lighter. Ssanyu Birigwa: Yes, exactly. And what a privilege that we have to to spend four hours on ourselves. Yeah. You know that I'm very aware, too, that I'm in a space of privilege and I. And that is part of the work, too, is to bring it out of the gates of a university system and share it. Right. And you said you can take these tools and feel lighter. You know, that's that's the work that I'm helping. Institute. In order to build cultures where individuals, leaders, clinicians can actually breathe and move beyond the struggle, the the barriers, the self inflicted barriers often. And also to understand that the slowing down is to an activation where we have been in our organizations, in our lives and our families and our communities, and what we use to get to where we've been. Yeah, we can't use those same tools. They need to be refined in some way to get to some place else. And that's important to me to understand. That's important for me to to share. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I'm very curious about two things. First, you said something astounding. I'm an 80th generation, which is an amazing thing to be able to say. So I would love to hear about that lineage and how that wisdom was transferred to you. But you know, I had we had we had a one on one experience which was very much focused on me. But, you know, now you're taking your wisdom and knowledge and skills. And, you know, as I read your introduction, an architect of systemic transformation frameworks that enable organizations to operate with authentic alignment between their stated values and daily practice practices. So, you know, I'm super, super curious about 79 generations that preceded you. Let's start there. But also also, how do you translate what you did with me as a particular specific interaction between two people? And how do you translate into that work, working at an organizational level? Thank you for asking. Ssanyu Birigwa: Those two questions. Yes. So I have a father he's Ugandan we call him Tata. And Tata is a living. He is the living chief of the bone healers. And the story goes. I am from the Buganda tribe of Uganda. And our kingdom, the Buganda Kingdom has a king. And hundreds of years ago, many generations ago, the king would be in his palace. And as we probably have heard stories of, you know kingdoms, the king is not necessarily always kind to his his people. Right. So sometimes the king would beat individuals and would break their bones. When that would happen, his staff would call upon my clan, the bone healers, who are seen, as we could say, the indigenous doctors. Now, that is true. We have, to this day about 45 minutes outside of Kampala, the bone healing clinic that is run by my family and the bone healers. And oftentimes I'm I hope your viewers understand, you know, the the tuk tuk and the we call them boda bodas. The folks on motorcycles and, you know, ride around the countryside or not even the countryside. It's a form of transportation. It's like Uber. Okay, but on the bicycle. On a motorcycle. Well, if you can imagine very congested areas of transport. These boda bodas, they fall off the bike and they get hurt often. Well, we're known. Our clinic is known for the boda bodas to come to because when they go to a regular facility, a clinic they complain that they're just wrapped up, their bones are wrapped up, and they're given, you know, Tylenol, Vicodin, you know, whatever it might be, they're drugged up. Ssanyu Birigwa: And that was very detailed within stories from individuals who I met at the clinic not wanting to be drugged up. And there are individuals who don't want that. So we have a way of using nature, using certain herbs, using certain leaves to help the body heal faster, quicker. And it is an ancient practice. So let's go back to the kingdom of Buganda. Individuals who started to get to know the bone healer. We're starting to speak about the bone healer having special abilities to connect to the stars and understanding that they were being. Channeled information that 1st May not have ever understood, and sharing it with the community. Individuals who who felt the need to be closer to, say, this healer, this indigenous healer would come to our house that we called the House of Chico. And that house is a special house where those who would stay there would have dreams. And the story is that these dreams would help them, you know, understand how to fix a problem or prophesize to them what they needed to do in their life to, you know deal with x, y, z that they were dealing with. That's, you know, just keeping the story simple. But to give an understanding that there was information being shared through our lineage and through this house of Chico. So not only was the healer fixing bones, but they were channeling information for people that. Needed and wanted that connection to spirit, as I will use so in these generations to be I understood later on in life that there was a connection that I too had to this lineage. Ssanyu Birigwa: Have I fixed a broken bone? No, but I have helped my clients accelerate in their healing when they have had issues with their body, with their bones, with their nervous system, with their digestive system. There's a potency and an understanding that I, too, have healing hands. I do channel, I do receive information, and the ancestors speak through me. I have had a beautiful experience of myself, and I call it a beautiful experience because it led me to the person I am today where I woke up paralyzed from my shoulders to my fingers. And I was introduced to a prophet. And through the introduction, through the sitting with and being of connection to him and his community to also a seer all being consciously aware at this time that I was on a journey of connecting with indigenous wisdom and knowledge and healing, because my experience in the healthcare system, going to emergency rooms, going to different, different doctors who would not have a diagnosis for me, some of your listeners and maybe even yourself, you've experienced going to the doctor feeling ill, but yet coming home with no diagnosis, not knowing what it is. My God, it's scary. No, it's it's frustrating. Yes. So this was an experience of mine where it brought me to understand. I needed to understand. I needed to further connect, not even understand. Connect. The threads, the connections to indigenous healing practices. And this western. State of what we call the healthcare system. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. So now here's the tricky part. How are you bringing indigenous knowledge, wisdom, and healing into organizations that Ssanyu Birigwa: Well, here we go. Dr. Kirk Adams: Pretty much rooted in Western ethos and how, how how do you do that through story. Ssanyu Birigwa: And that's telling my own personal stories of the health, of the healing. But Often times it's through the lens of how do we trust our systems? How do we begin to trust our leaders? And to be honest, we can. We all have the ability to choose which stories to tell. So here today, I get to really dive deep into some vulnerable areas of my story and details of who I am. I do believe that the way to infuse what I've described is through what we call narrative bridge narratives of trust. And how do I do that? I build in our clinical practice of narrative medicine, which is to use story, literature, artwork to slow down, to, frankly, slow down. And you talked about I would read you a poem have you write to a writing prompt and oftentimes what was written, you were surprised as to what came out? Yes. Yes. Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. Ssanyu Birigwa: And that right there. Just writing for five minutes. When being guided in a way that allows the individual. Dr. Kirk Adams: To. Ssanyu Birigwa: Be inspired. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. I remember it was a lot of like, childhood stuff that I hadn't thought about in a long, long time, but obviously it was significant. So yes. Ssanyu Birigwa: And that's that's where I begin. Do I want to bring leaders back to their childhood in a group setting? When we only have maybe, you know, a half a day or 90 minutes? No. But do I want to bring them to reflect on how they have been leading as individuals and as teams? Yes, I do. Do I believe it's important to touch upon some EQ stuff? I do. And is it important to be real honest and maybe even pull back some layers? Of oneself to maybe even expose themselves to their colleagues, to create a space of trust and maybe deeper belonging and camaraderie? Yes. Is it uncomfortable sometimes. Ssanyu Birigwa: They have a saying that diamonds are made out of pressure. It's a knowing I would actually even say right. Yeah. So do we sometimes feel like we're in a pressure cooker when change needs to occur. I think so. And that's where I find myself standing in the center of. Us is guiding individuals, maybe out of the pressure cooker, maybe through it, maybe towards it because they haven't felt the pressure yet. Maybe, maybe they're in a space of innovation and needing to understand how to get across the threshold to a new place of operation. Well, there needs to be true understanding of who you work with, what their leadership styles are. Maybe it's the time where you move against the grain, as I say, to what you would expect an individual to do. Perhaps that conversation that's being guided reveals something about that individual that perhaps is a better fit for them. And I say, over yonder. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah. So what? What are the dynamics that would motivate an organization to say, we need a bone healer up in here now? Right. What what what brings these organizations to a place where they're able to embrace really open. They need they need to open up and be somewhat vulnerable to do this work. And my experience is with large organizations, both for profit and nonprofit, is their openness and vulnerability is not that common. So I'm curious what motivates organizations to take that step. Ssanyu Birigwa: You know, it it takes a lot of trust. It takes connection. I often am found through individuals who have either worked with me one on one and in that space of spirituality and narrative medicine and, and deep listening you know, rewiring our nervous system essentially is, is what we are doing in my private practice. So building literally a bridge from the private practice into corporate offerings has been challenging. But sure, I've been put on this earth to break barriers. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I'm guessing it's somewhat like disability inclusion, which is what I focus on. And typically it's because someone has a passion around making a more inclusive world for people with disabilities. And very often it's because they have a have had a child who has a disability. Ssanyu Birigwa: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: And now all of a sudden their their paradigm has shifted and they understand that people with impairments are human beings and need to be treated with respect and dignity, and they get very motivated about that. So I, I'm guessing if someone who is in a leadership position within an organization has had that personal experience with you, I could see how they could be motivated to to bring that knowledge and healing into the into the organization. Ssanyu Birigwa: And to part of being vulnerable myself. When individuals do hear my story, when I get an opportunity to share it it really informs the way that I facilitate, the way that I make connections. So to go back to your question, how do I do this? Well, it's been through word of mouth. And so we are doing a little reiteration of expanding the work beyond healthcare you know, beyond the framework of clinical spaces. It's really to your point of what you talked about, of inclusion and diversity is really that we have the power to fuel or to use inclusivity to fuel exceptional performance. And if an organization is not wanting to do that, then I'm, I'm I'm peeved. Most organizations do. And my whole point is, hey, we have to do things differently. You know, I'm guided by you know, let's I'm being academic here. Truly. A guided pedagogy. Okay. And so when I. What I understand this to be, you know, we all are a part of diverse journeys that have really shaped a, a unique experience and has influenced. Who we have become. But one thing that I have seen is that and witness in all different areas of leadership, like I said, whether it's healthcare or technology you know, disability frameworks around death and dying and AI, I worked with an organization that was really focused in on how to use their diversity, Equity and Inclusion board and their AI board. Ssanyu Birigwa: How do they how do they come together to work together? Now that's that was interesting, right? What I saw and I'm seeing is that understanding others personal narratives is the key to developing trust is the key in fostering collaboration. It is the key that's driving innovation and quite frankly, the key to achieving results that exceeds everyone's expectations. Why? Because we're paying attention. We're deeply listening to individual's experiences. So what narrative bridge my company brings, which is an extension of who I am. We bring research based understanding, customization of this narrative medicine clinical training adaptable for organizations to help their leaders and their employees simply tell their stories and to relate to one another, person to person. Well, you think that's quite simple, but the by the lack of buy in with organizations that are actually stating that this is what they want for their employees is. I'm choosing my words very carefully right now. Has brought upon a challenge for individuals who do this work. Ssanyu Birigwa: But you know, I stick to my mission. Our commitment is for inclusion as a strategic underpinning of what we believe to be true, that our personal narratives provides insights for us to develop better relationships. That then feeds right into the groundwork for trust. Deeper trust, not just surface trust. The trust that you need to to create and and cross over the threshold into innovation that unlocks what we've seen. Deeper productivity. What I just spoke about innovation which equals growth. Wow. Aren't these the employees that we want for the future? Aren't these the entrepreneurs that we want for the future? So we're really solving something that I, that I, that I put into, if you could imagine a circle or three circles within a larger circle. So we call it these three points of learning to pause you, you learn that with me in our one on one sessions to then practice that. Well, you told us some really wonderful stories and about learning and using that in your own practice. Well then that third one is continuing to learn about yourself by taking that pause and by practicing. That's growth. Well, once we then have reflection within that, that space there, that's around the pause, the learning and the practice. I have seen that create maximum impact and growth for everyone, individuals and the entire team, which to me is creating healthier communities. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Kirk Adams: So for you, this time has flown by. Ssanyu Birigwa: I know how that happened. Dr. Kirk Adams: But if people want to get in touch with you to talk about your private practice, where they can work with you individually, or if people want to talk to you about narrative bridge and how they can bring this knowledge, wisdom and healing into their organizations, how can people get in touch? Ssanyu Birigwa: Well, they can always email me. I am at sunoo at Sunoo comm. You can really deepen into what I do individually. On my website, Soniya comm. And you know what I am focused in on, which we talked a bit about, is the understanding that we all want to grow. And I think some of us might be in positions of our lives, in our careers where we're taking a moment to pause and think about what's our next iteration of life. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. Ssanyu Birigwa: And so if we're dysregulated, I come from the time where and also to having lived between East Africa and Newton, Massachusetts. So I'm often someone who is not of the majority. Ssanyu Birigwa: When we hold on to all those traumas and coming from that time and space of you work hard, you know, be disciplined, you know, stay focused. You know, again work hard hard hustle hustle. What are you doing. You're wasting your time. You know, like we learned how to just work and work hard. And many of us have achieved such great things. Titles, accolades. And maybe did not spend enough time releasing from that fight or flight, that dysregulation from that hustle. Hustle. Work hard. Hard. Harder. Yeah. So what I'm building here doesn't require all of us to be on all the time. We have to learn to pause, to slow down, to reactivate. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. Ssanyu Birigwa: Right. And so. The pause three method is really here to soften the nervous system. And the intention is to orient us towards what matters. And the forgiveness is to unhook us from what's draining us. So these three steps, under three minutes anywhere, is the foundation of everything that I do. And that leaders I don't care what system you come from, what organization you lead, what industry you're in, you have to take that moment to just pause. And I bet you if we did a series of leaders of large organizations, small organizations wouldn't matter. All of them say they probably. Well, I have to just take a moment to take a deep breath. Right. That's the pause. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Ssanyu Birigwa: Right. I run, I run every morning. I look at my shoes and I get in those shoes and I run, I. So we all have a way of doing things right. I'm just here to help individuals and organizations to refine it. And so Narrative Bridge comm is where you can also find information on how I work with leaders and organizations. I'm on LinkedIn and I have several ways to work. One on one. Just contact me and let's make it happen. Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm here so I can give a personal testimony that I work with on you, and if you feel like you are mired in the mucky muck, you want to feel lighter. Learn how to pause and learn how to forgive yourself for your human foibles. Yep. Reach out. Reach out to Sonya. She she is the real deal. And if you want to get in touch with me again, I would love to talk to anyone about inclusion from the through a disability lens in particular. Kirk Adams at Dr. Kirk Adams comm, or Kirk Adams, PhD, on LinkedIn. And thank you so much for listening to the podcast by Kirk Adams. I'd be remiss if I didn't say whatever platform you you're using, like this podcast, please. And we'll we'll we'll be back with you next time. And, Sonya, I'd love to have you back sometime in 2026 to learn about how narrative bridge is progressing and all the good you're doing in the world. Ssanyu Birigwa: Thank you Kirk. I would love to come back. This is this is wonderful. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you. Awesome. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you so much. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Tmz.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep making an impact.

🎙️ Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Vanessa Abraham, Speech Language Pathologist https://drkirkadams.com/podcasts-by-dr-kirk-adams-10-23-2025/ In this candid episode of Podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams sits down with speech-language pathologist, author, and ICU survivor Vanessa Abraham to trace her extraordinary arc from clinician to patient and back again. Abraham recounts the rare Guillain-Barré variant that left her paralyzed and voiceless, the disorientation and aftermath of Post-Intensive Care Syndrome, and the painstaking work of reclaiming speech, swallowing, mobility, and identity. She explains why she wrote Speechless, to humanize the critical-care experience, and makes a compelling case that communication access in the ICU is a basic right, not a luxury. The conversation moves from story to strategy: how lived experience reshaped her practice, how she founded A Neu Healing Therapy to bring neuro-rehabilitation innovations to survivors, and what clinicians, hospital leaders, and families can do now, build trauma-informed teams, ensure reliable ways for non-speaking patients to be heard, and measure recovery by dignity as well as function. Throughout, Dr. Adams draws out practical takeaways and a wider systems lens, leaving listeners with both hope and a concrete roadmap for more humane, effective care. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. And I am said Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And I have a I say amazing guest today, Vanessa Abraham, who's a speech pathologist who's not only practiced speech pathology but has experienced the need for speech therapy herself, and I'll let her tell her story. I did want to acknowledge Mai Ling Chan, who is the source for me knowing Vanessa. Mai Ling is a an amazing disability advocate and she has created a platform called Exceptional Leaders Network ELN and it's a very small monthly subscription fee to be amongst some amazing people and get to spend some, some focused time with Mai Ling as well. So I, I met I met Vanessa through the ELN and she has brought her talent, skills and passions to the world to help support individuals who need support in their in their speech and articulation. And she's developed some amazing new technologies. And I was just speaking to the disability ERG at Russell Investments here in Seattle yesterday. And we talked about the fact that anyone can join us as disabled citizens at any time and people can become disabled and non-disabled, and it's very fluid. Dr. Kirk Adams: And we talked about the difference between impairment and disability. For instance, I have a visual impairment. I'm blind, I can't see, but if I have my Jaws screen reading software, my Refreshable Braille display, and my computer with the tools I have, I'm not in a disabling situation. If you take those things away and I just have a regular computer with no screen reading technology and a monitor, I am in a disabling situation. So Vanessa, I just want to turn it over to you. I know you were working with students in public schools for quite some time, and then something, something really transformational happened in 2019. And if you could take, take us, take us through your journey. Where? Where have you been? And where are you at now? Where? Where do you hope to take things? Where are you planning to take things and what? What's what's working well for you? And are there any any challenges you'd like us to know about? Vanessa Abraham: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me here today. And you're right. My journey began in 2019. So a little over six years ago as you mentioned, I am a school based speech pathologist. I work with school aged kids with communication challenges. So anyone from using things like text to speech or eye gaze, augmentative communication devices to students that may be working on stuttering and producing smooth speech or articulation. So that's kind of where my world has been for the past 15 or so years, just working as a school based speech pathologist until one day 2019, when I became the patient in the bed receiving speech therapy. And that's really when my world got turned upside down, where I realized what it was like to have a communication impairment not only a communication impairment, but a voice and swallowing impairment, too. And I required extensive speech therapy. How it all began. I talked extensively about this in my book, speechless, that I launched about ten months ago. Launched in January. It began just as a virus. And this virus slowly paralyzed my brainstem and spinal cord. As you said, it can happen overnight. It's very fluid. You just never know what tomorrow will bring. And for me, within a week's time, I was intubated and in my. Or on my way to ICU you at UCSD, San Diego where my life completely turned upside down. And as I said, I became the patient in the bed. Never imagined when I was in grad school that I would be the one sitting in the chair having a barium swallow study. And eventually I was to. Dr. Kirk Adams: What is. What is that? Vanessa Abraham: So the barium swallow study is a study that you do in the ICU or in the acute setting that looks at your swallowing muscles. How? And it tests your swallowing. Are you safe to swallow? Are you safe to be eating orally? For me, due to the nature of this virus that was paralyzing my brainstem, spinal cord, it paralyzed all the muscles in my neck that are used for voice and swallowing. So I was no longer able to swallow food safely. My vocal cords experienced significant atrophy, so they weren't working quite as well as they should be. My upper body was paralyzed. I was not able to move my right arm to right, to point, to do much of anything. And this all happened within days or a week. I was fine. I was out, like I said, I was. I talk about this in my book. I was out camping with my family, and then all of a sudden I woke up and I thought, I've got a cold. I need to go home. Well, that cold quickly progressed into this upper body. It's called what I have is the pharyngeal cervical brachial variant of Guillain-Barré. So most people with Guillain-Barre, their feet have extensive paralysis. My feet were fine. I was actually able to walk. I just couldn't move my upper body or swallow foods. So, again, I was the patient in the bed. I had to learn to talk again. I used I gaze, I used text to speech. I had to write my words down and eventually I used this thing called a passy-muir valve. Dr. Kirk Adams: Vanessa, I'm I'm pretty immersed in the in the blindness world, and I, I've spent a lot of time with the deaf blind community, but the the speech and communication challenges are, are not as familiar to me. So you mentioned eye gaze. You mentioned text to speech. You mentioned, I think augmentative communication devices. Could you, could you just spend a few minutes talking about the various technologies? Vanessa Abraham: Yeah, absolutely. So eye gaze. I was not able to communicate verbally. I was also not able to use my fingers to point to gesture. I was pretty locked in, so the only way I could communicate was by looking at a word on a piece of paper or looking at a letter like Y for yes, N for no, or the word yes and for no. And my family had to track my eyes. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Vanessa Abraham: They would ask me a question like, are you in pain? And I had to look at the word yes. And they would track my eyes to see because I wasn't able to point to the word yes. And I progressed from using eye gaze to being able to point to letters on a piece of paper. When my fingers were able to move a little bit better, I was able to point to letters for like, yes, or you know, when I had a burning question what's happening to me? I could type in every letter for a sentence. It was a very slow process to communicate that way, and very frustrating. However, it was a modality of communication for me, which was very important. I progressed from using the the little letter board to writing on a whiteboard, and eventually I was able to use my phone. And being a speech pathologist, I knew that there was greater technology out there than just writing things on a piece of paper. So that was a point where I decided to ask for my phone. I asked my family and give me my phone. I want to download a text to speech app, which I did. I got a free app and I just was able to type very fast questions on my phone and ask questions, and after that I was they gave me the speech pathologist there, gave me a passy-muir valve to trial. That's a valve that goes on your tracheostomy that allows you to vocalize. So that was the point that I was able to communicate with the tracheostomy. And that was a very, very hard, scary period of my life, learning just to go up again and hear my voice again. That was something I'll never forget, honestly. Dr. Kirk Adams: How long was that process from waking up intubated and paralyzed to being able to use the the valve? Vanessa Abraham: Close to a month, three weeks or so. Dr. Kirk Adams: Three weeks of hard work, I imagine. Vanessa Abraham: Oh, extremely hard work. Extremely hard work. And eventually that was removed, and I was able to vocalize without any type of assistive technology. But that's when I also had to experience a lot of speech therapy for voice. So I did that, and I did a lot of swallowing therapy, probably for about, oh, let's see, three, four months of swallowing therapy before my peg tube was removed and I was able to swallow foods orally, safely. And from there on out it was just a lot of rehab, a lot of physical therapy, a lot of occupational therapy. Speech therapy lasted about 4 or 5 months. And then I was able to once I was able to eat food safely, then I was discharged from that therapy. But it was a experience that I'll never forget. I've really learned as a speech pathologist what medical trauma is, and the associated depression and anxiety that goes along with being critically ill. And an experience in the ICU when you really weren't planning on that. I talk about this thing. It's called pics Post-intensive Care syndrome. I talk about that pretty extensively in my book, and that's the psychological aspect of an ICU stay. And a lot of the depression, the suicidal ideation that we go through, a lot of the brain fog and forgetfulness that ICU survivors go through. And that's just something that I never learned about in grad school as a clinician. Vanessa Abraham: I've never I never really realized that this existed until I got out of the ICU and I was experiencing all of this myself. And the doctor and the ICU met with me. And she goes, Vanessa, I think you have this thing called Pics Post-intensive Care Syndrome, and she sat down with me and explained it to me and I said, yes, I definitely am experiencing all of that. A lot of that suicidal ideation where my, you know, my life was completely flipped upside down within days. I was very healthy. I never experienced anything more than like a runny nose my whole life, maybe an occasional flu or cold or something, but definitely never experienced trying to rehabilitate back from a swallowing disorder, a communication disorder, paralysis. It was very, very hard journey to to say it lightly. And six years later, I am a lot better. I still advocate heavily for pics and pics. Survivors, ICU survivors. I do a lot of speaking about it now, just trying to educate the next group of graduates and schools and families as well. It's really important to me to, for family members to understand that their loved ones that are getting out of the ICU have experienced trauma, and what that trauma may look like for them. Dr. Kirk Adams: Is that send them fairly newly identified. I, I've been in the disability spaces a long time. I've certainly heard about trauma informed design and trauma informed programming, but I've never heard the term before. Vanessa Abraham: Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that because it is. Well, yes and no. Is it new? It's something that's not talked about heavily. However, it has been out there. Okay. I am working with a group of individuals that are working on getting an ICD code for picks right now, and we're really hoping that that will be out in 2026. Okay. And if that happens, then it will really it'll really put picks pics on the map. It'll get people to start talking about it and understanding it because as you know, people haven't heard about this. They don't understand. They think that you got out of ICU, you fought, you lived. You should be great and grateful and happy and and look what you accomplished. And that's right. Yes, I am grateful. My team was phenomenal. They saved my life. My family was wonderful. However, I'm not the same person. No one's the same after they've experienced trauma. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right? Right. And my trauma came early in my life. Just to let you know, my retina is detached. When I was five and I had a lot of surgeries and was hospitalized for lengthy periods of time between age six and 12. And I was speaking with a therapist some years ago dealing with some issues, and she said, have you done anything to address your childhood trauma? I he said. What? Childhood trauma? She said. You were six years old, operated on and in the hospital with your head in a clamp for ten days at a time. So it's it's interesting that pix has been identified, and I will be reading your book and learning much more about it. Vanessa Abraham: That is what you just said to about childhood traumas and addressing those that is so important and so real. Because even if you're a child and you've gone through a medical, medical trauma or traumatic event that still sits with you as an adult, right? It truly does. Medical trauma. I've talked with significant people about this same topic, that medical trauma can be an adverse childhood experience, and that's something that really needs to be talked about. Kids when they're born babies and they're in the NICU, they're not able to be held by their mothers, their fathers. They're not getting that skin to skin that can be traumatic for kids. A two year old that's getting that, that is admitted to the ICU for a medical condition, a car accident, watching loved ones go through an ICU stay that is very traumatic and needs to be talked about because these traumas stay with that person until they're 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 years old. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. And the ICD code, is that some sort of formal diagnosis? What is the ICD code? Vanessa Abraham: Yeah. So the ICD code is what the insurance and medical professionals use for billing and medical research. So that's going to really help in the future because it's really going to it's going to put pics on the map and people are going to start understanding it and and addressing it appropriately. Here's a here's a classic example. When I got out of the ICU I went to try to find mental health services because of the significant depression, the suicidal ideation, and the first therapist that I went to. Mind you, I had lost significant weight because I was in the ICU. I had a lot of atrophy, and at this point in time I was tube fed still and, you know, very, very frail. And I walked into her office and sat on her couch and, you know, was very emotional. And she asked me how much I weighed. And I told her and she said, well, what did you weighed before? And I told her, and she starts doing these medical or these calculations on her calculator. And I thought, I wonder what she's doing. And then next thing you know, she starts speaking. And she wanted to put me in a support group for eating disorders, and I wanted to just cry because I have an eating disorder. I had a swallowing disorder where I couldn't safely eat food, and this is where people are just so uneducated, as you know, The world is uneducated on what the difference between a swallowing disorder and an eating disorder, right? I walked out of her. I walked out of her office crying. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So misunderstood. Vanessa Abraham: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: And not. Not seen. Not heard. Vanessa Abraham: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. You mentioned working with a group of people to establish the ICD code. If people are listening, and this is a striking a chord with them or resonating with them, and they think that that might be me, or are there groups that people can connect with or resources that you would recommend? Of course. Please tell people how to find your book. Absolutely. Other resources in this? I have not seen the term, I think ICU survivor either, until I looked at your LinkedIn profile. Vanessa Abraham: So yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Absolutely. Where can people connect with community? Vanessa Abraham: Yeah. Great question. Because my community, honestly, is what kept me alive. Knowing that there were support groups out there for picks and people that understood me is what really got me through those very, very dark moments. They encouraged me to write the book and help me launch the book. And but in terms of support groups, I can always be reached through my website, WW. Dot com. I'm also on social media. Speechless SLP so please anybody reach out to me? That's one resource. But also the support groups that I have been through, there's one in Pittsburgh at Mercy, and there's another one in Vanderbilt. And they have weekly support group meetings that you're definitely encouraged to call and contact, and you can join their support groups. There is another girl that does a medical trauma support group. She does a weekly meeting as well. She's in And in Austin, Texas. Her name is Sarah. She can be reached at Medical trauma Support. Com. So there are a lot of resources out there. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great. Vanessa Abraham: The big problem is, is that this is just not talked about enough. People don't realize that. Yeah, you've lived, but there's there's the after effect of of rehabilitation and how traumatizing that is, how many flashbacks we have PTSD very significant PTSD of sights, sounds, smells just triggers that we see. For me, if I see an ambulance, that's a trigger for me because I wrote in three different ambulances. One of them was very traumatic, where I was hallucinating. Just on on heavy, heavy narcotics just for the pain that I was in. So it's just important to realize that you're not alone and that there is support out there. Also, something that's really important to realize as well is that family members can experience picks too. And that's called picks family. And it's normal for a family member to have some of this PTSD because they watch their loved ones fight for their lives. They may have seen a very scary medical procedure. I talk about one in my book with my husband and what he saw and what he experienced, and that's real. And it's okay to talk about it and join support groups, because those support groups and building that community, for me, it was everything that's. Dr. Kirk Adams: It is very heartening to know that there are resources available for people. I did want to ask you about. You've developed some new therapies based on your experience. And I think a new healing. Can you talk to us about that? Vanessa Abraham: Yeah. I've learned an entirely different way of treating voice and swallowing disorders just because of what I have been through. So, of course, me, the speech pathologist. I relied on the literature of what I learned in grad school to address voice and swallowing disorders. But I came across that direct current direct current e-stim device is called the newbie. And when during my rehabilitation and they were using it for me just to get that brain body connection going again, getting the the neuroplasticity, getting the brain to connect with the nervous system. And it was unbelievable for me in reducing a lot of the pain that I was experiencing and getting movement back into my body, just being able to lift my limbs again, being able to lift things again, getting my strength back. So the speech pathologist in me was thinking, okay, well, if it can do this, that and the other for other parts of my nervous system, why can't this address voice and swallowing? Dr. Kirk Adams: Why can't in simple terms that I can understand. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Tell me how the device works. Vanessa Abraham: Yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: So it's like direct current. Vanessa Abraham: Yeah. So have you used, like, a basic e-stim device where you put the little sticky pads? Have you ever seen one of those little sticky pads? So it's like that. It's much more powerful. Okay. It's a direct current device which your body works on. Is is basically a direct current device. So this device works very similarly to the way your nervous system already works. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Vanessa Abraham: It was an absolute. Dr. Kirk Adams: So your upper body is paralyzed. Are they attaching this to your arm then to. Vanessa Abraham: I would I would. Dr. Kirk Adams: Stimulate. Vanessa Abraham: Yeah I would just attach it to various muscles on my body that were not activating like so my right arm was paralyzed. It wasn't able to move that. And I was able to gain movement much faster than I was previously. Dr. Kirk Adams: And so the new the new device applies the direct current to the inactive or not responding muscle. Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Makes it work. Vanessa Abraham: Yeah. It wakes it up for a lack of. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, okay, okay. Vanessa Abraham: And so the speech therapist in me and thought, okay, well, if what I have Guillain-Barre is a neurological disorder, why can't this work on the nervous system of kids with, say, autism? So I just started thinking out of the box, and then I thought, okay, well, my swallowing muscles are impaired. Why can't this work for swallowing? It's if it's working on the muscles in my bicep, why can't it work for the voice? The muscles used for swallowing And all the muscles that are used for, you know voicing and communication. Everything in my neck was paralyzed. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Vanessa Abraham: So I just started thinking out of the box, and sure enough, I wasn't afraid of the device. I thought, well, if I did this to my arms and every other body part in my place, in my body, and it took away the pain, why shouldn't it work for other areas? So I started doing that, and sure enough, it was taking away a lot of the pain that I had associated with eating you know, and muscles underneath my chin like the hyoid muscles. I used to have a lot of significant pain there when I would eat, and I was able to eliminate that pain. So it really opened my eyes that, hey, there's other ways to treat some of these speech related disabilities. And if it worked on me, I know it works on other people. So it's been really eye opening for me. Dr. Kirk Adams: So you're using that technology in your practice? Vanessa Abraham: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: I. Vanessa Abraham: I firmly believe in it. It gave me my life back. And it's doing the same for many people that I've worked with too. I've had kids with autism that had pretty significant autism where they're now able to sit and attend and they're calmer. Their nervous system is quieter. So it really works on like, things like the vagus nerve. And it's been it's been really good. A lot of people may think it's a little bit strange because it's not necessarily in the research, it's in the research for other areas, but not necessarily voice and swallowing. But I've experienced it. I've lived it. I've I've learned it. Dr. Kirk Adams: And and our other speech pathologists are starting to adopt it as well. Are you spreading the word. Dr. Kirk Adams: No, no, it's. Yeah, it's the pioneer. Vanessa Abraham: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Okay. Vanessa Abraham: And it's it's phenomenal. I can't even begin to describe the changes that it's given me in the life that it's given to me again. I do a lot of the vagus nerve stimulation with the newbie as well, and it's helped me sleep better. It's helped me just get a little bit more grounded in my life. So. But I've, I just can say that because I've lived it and I've used it on myself, and I've. I'm no longer tube fed. I don't have that swallowing pain. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, tell us. Tell us a little bit about the book and where people can find the book. And then again to let people you mentioned it once before, but I want people to make sure and catch it of how they can get in touch with you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Vanessa Abraham: The book launched in January. That I can honestly say took probably 4 or 5 years to write just because of the emotional load of it. It was very emotional to get it out on paper. It was one of those things that I would write a page or a paragraph or maybe a chapter here and there, and then I would close my laptop and close it, because it was just so traumatic reliving a lot of those experiences again for me. And it would bring up a lot of memories and a lot of that trauma again. And it was just too hard for me to go complete. And then I hired and you may know this name, Maddie Murray from the Exceptional Leaders. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, yeah. Vanessa Abraham: So she's a speech pathologist, and she helped me filter through all of my medical notes, because a lot of the medical notes, not only were they traumatizing for me to read again, but a lot of it I didn't quite understand because I'm not a medical based speech pathologist. I work in the schools. So she sat with me, held my hand through it, held my hand right through all the tears and the the fears and the worries and the anxiety I had over the book. And we launched this book in January, this of this year, 2025. And I can honestly say that once it launched, I felt so good that my story was out there and that hopefully my story will help other people that are going through the depression, the anxiety that everything, medical trauma that I have lived through. So the book can be found on Amazon. You can just go to Amazon and you can type in speechless. How a speech therapist lost her ability to speak and are silent, struggle to reclaim her voice in life. You could probably also type in speechless. Vanessa. Abraham. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Vanessa Abraham: And then again, yes, I am on LinkedIn. Vanessa Abraham I'm on Instagram. Speechless. Underscore SLP Facebook speechless SLP. And those are different social platforms that I'm currently on. Dr. Kirk Adams: So this is all pretty new to me. So I might not have asked all the questions I should have asked. This is, are there other aspects or dynamics that you want to make sure that people become aware of? Vanessa Abraham: No picks is my big piece that I like to talk about. I like to educate people about it. I like to talk to nurses, respiratory therapists, OT, PT, pharmacists, social workers and just educate people that this is real. This is a conversation that we need to be talking about. Social workers, upon discharge, can have these conversations with their loved ones and saying, look. Dr. Kirk Adams: There's this thing. Vanessa Abraham: Yes, there is this thing. And when your loved one comes home, they may have confusion, they may. Dr. Kirk Adams: Be. Vanessa Abraham: Disoriented, they may be profoundly depressed. Get them therapy. It's okay. Go to therapy as a family, as a couple. Because people don't realize that you come home and you are you are really changed person. Dr. Kirk Adams: And it's Post-intensive care syndrome, correct? Vanessa Abraham: Yeah. Post-intensive care syndrome or Pic. You can go to ICU delirium. That's another good website. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Vanessa Abraham: A wealth of information on that website as well. Dr. Kirk Adams: Icu delirium.com. Dr. Kirk Adams: Dot com. Great. Well this has been super enlightening for me. Vanessa I really appreciate your time and your care and your intentionality about what you're doing with the experience you had to help other people, which is a beautiful thing. If people want to get in touch with me, I have a website which is just Dr. Kirk adams.com. So doctor Kirk adams.com, you can find me there. Sign up for the newsletter on LinkedIn. I am Kirk Adams, PhD and I trust you all learned a lot today on podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. And we will see you next time. Vanessa Abraham: Thank you. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thanks, Vanessa. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

Here Dr. Kirk Adams frames disability inclusion as a hiring advantage powered by one national door and local execution. He spotlights CSAVR's National Employment Team (NET), led by Kathleen West-Evans, as a single gateway into every state and territorial public VR agency, with TAP (the Talent Acquisition Portal) and on-the-ground VR specialists turning postings into interviews, OJT, accommodations, and retention. The article walks leaders through why inclusion breaks at the national-to-local seam, how the NET's "one company" model fixes it, and where the ROI shows up—shorter time-to-fill, stronger 90/180-day retention, and reduced compliance risk. Case patterns from Hyatt (1,000+ trainees), Microsoft (dozens of hires), CVS Health (hundreds of hires), and Kwik Trip (300+ hires across 600+ stores) demonstrate repeatable designs: employer-built curricula, alternative assessments, role redesign, and national agreements executed locally. He closes with a six-step playbook (name a national sponsor, execute a NET agreement, activate state POCs, instrument training/OJT, pre-plan retention, measure and scale), rebuts common objections ("we already have job boards," "accommodations are costly," "multi-state is messy"), and shows how to integrate the NET into ATS, accessibility roadmaps, workforce pipelines, and governance. Compliance is the floor; performance is the flywheel. The invitation: join the September 25 LinkedIn Live with West-Evans, bring one stubborn multi-state requisition and a draft KPI set, and leave with a 90-day plan to pilot the NET in two regions—because inclusion isn't charity; it's recruiting math at enterprise scale. TRANSCRIPT Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams. Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello, everybody. This is Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in sunny Seattle, Washington. And this is my monthly live streamed webinar, which I call Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability Inclusion. And today we have an expert in the area of disability inclusion and employment, Kathy West-Evans, my dear, dear, long time friend and colleague. Say, say. Say. Hi, Kathy. I'll be back to you in a minute. Kathy West-Evans: Okay. Hi, this is Kathy West-Evans, and I'm joining you from east of Seattle. A long time partner of Kirkson. Thank you for having the conversation today, Kirk. We both know that this we we supercharge the bottom line working as a team. So thank you. Dr. Kirk Adams: That's right. So I just wanted to reflect a little bit. So Kathy is involved in the vocational rehabilitation system which is a powerful engine for disability inclusion and employment. She'll be talking to us about how the vocational rehabilitation system works and how they work with employers and all of the resources they can bring to the table to assist people with disabilities and and their employers make successful employment outcomes. But I when I was at the American Foundation for the blind. So I am the immediate past president of AFB, and I was privileged to hold those roles in the same roles at the Lighthouse for the blind, Inc., here in Seattle, where we employed hundreds of blind and deaf blind people in various business activities, including aerospace manufacturing, which was a lot of fun making parts for all the Boeing aircraft. But when I was at AFB, when we did our strategic plan, you know, we wanted to support blind children in education. We wanted to support older people who are visually impaired. Most people who are legally blind have become so as part of the aging process, not not lived their lives as a blind person as I have. But we really decided we wanted to focus on employment because only 35% of us with significant disabilities are in the workforce, and that's that's compared to 70% of the general population. Dr. Kirk Adams: So as far as working age people in our country, about 70% are working. And in the folks with significant disabilities, only about 35% of us. So half. And for the official unemployment rate, people seeking work. The Bureau of Labor Statistics if it's 4% for the general population, it will be 8% for us who are actively seeking work. So how you slice it, our outcomes and employment are half as good or twice as bad as the general population. But in preparation for designing our employment related strategies, we did a literature review. We hired a brilliant blind researcher named Doctor Ariel Silverman. She did her doctoral work here in Seattle at the University of Washington, and now she is a head of research at AFB. But we we asked Ariel to do a literature review on employment, Unemployment, and she synthesized probably 120 different peer reviewed research based articles on employment and one. One statistic that really stood out for me that among those employers who formerly say some sort of statement that they are inclusive of hiring people with disabilities or proactively seeking to hire more people with disabilities, less than 10% were connected with our vocational rehabilitation system. It was 9.2% of the employers that said they want to hire disabilities were actually connected to our greatest resource for employing people with disabilities, which is our vocational rehabilitation system. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I really want to turn turn the microphone over to Kathy and really ask you, Kathy, to talk about three things. And I'll I'll pop in with questions as they as they arise, as they occur to me. But I'd love it if you could tell our listeners and viewers describe the vocational rehabilitation system, how how it works, how funding works, how how federal funds flow to the states. We'd like you to talk about all of the resources that vocational rehabilitation can bring to the table in working with individuals with disabilities, seeking employment, and working with employers who want to successfully employ people with disabilities. So paint paint is the general VR picture. And then we'd love for you to talk about the national employment team. Was was happily joined you all in your two day summit over on the Microsoft campus earlier this month. So the national employment team is very fresh and current in my mind. And then the the talent acquisition portal, which is another powerful tool that people can use. So I'm going to I'm going to turn it over to you, Kathy. I'll pop. I'll pop back in with a question or two from time to time. Kathy West-Evans: Good. Keep me on track, Kirk, because, you know, I get excited about this, this work and the work that we've done together. Yeah. So the Rehabilitation Act, which funds public vocational rehab. The acronym is VR. And no, it's not virtual reality. It's vocational rehabilitation. Who was funded in initially in 1920 because people recognized that disability happens. You could be born with a disability. You can acquire a disability at any time during your life, but your goals are the same employment, independence, living in your communities. And so that act was built around the person thinking about the whole person. So as Kirk well knows, Kirk and I work together supporting the employment of people who are deaf blind here in our Seattle community. You know, you've got to think of things like, if someone doesn't drive, how do they get to and from work? It seems simple to us in the field, but not always. Not always simple transportation systems, navigating everything. We work hard to do that. So it's thinking about the whole person. What are their goals? What are their skill sets, what are their career aspirations? And then looking and working with business to understand their their needs for talent as well as their needs to retain talent. Kathy West-Evans: So this system is a federal, state funded system, roughly 80% federal, 20% state. It's 2070 8.7 and 21.3 state. So I'm not going to get into those details, but the program is decided, the structure of the program is decided at the state level. Understanding the states know their resources and know how to best support the success of the individual and the business. So we have 78 agencies. We're in every state, the territories and District of Columbia. And in some states, like here in Washington, we have two states because the state has decided to have a general agency, but also an agency that specializes in serving people who are blind or have vision loss. And that may be, again, in independent living, it could be in that career track. And there's also a program for individuals who are older, blind. Like Kirk says, we have an aging workforce and an aging population. And vision and hearing are two of the sensory functions that tend to be impacted by aging. So really looking at two things. Dr. Kirk Adams: So you mentioned in our state we have two vocational rehabilitation agencies, one that focuses specifically on people who are blind and the other that addresses people with, with other disabilities. Now, some states only have one agency. I think it's something like 30 states have two and 20 have one, something like that. Yes. Kathy West-Evans: Something like that. Dr. Kirk Adams: Correct. Yeah. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. And again it's decided at the state level understanding how they're structured. So like for example in California we have a combined agency okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: And then the other thing I don't know if it was if it was at your summit or somewhere else, but I just recently heard the statistic that the fastest growing age group entering employment, people over 75. Kathy West-Evans: Yes. So it's not just entering employment, Kirk, but I think staying employed. Okay. Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Right. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Good. So as a you know again we're we're researchers here. So to statistics. So some like 16% of people over 65 years old have some sort of visual impairment some sort of low vision situation primarily. And then something like 23% of people over 85 have a visual impairment. So many, many, many people enter our community. Yes. Of legal blindness later in life. Kathy West-Evans: Yes, yes. We talk about disability being the one community that you can hinder enter at any point in your life. Right. So yeah, it's, you know, life changes in an instant, right, Kirk. Right. It's like, as you know my brother had an accident at the time. He had his accident. He owned his own business. Now he's a quadriplegic with a traumatic brain injury. He he fell working on a building. And guess what? He's back working Because that's what he wanted. And living independently and driving and, and you know, I, I like to have people think, what would you want for yourself? Yeah, I think all of us want to have control of our life. Right? Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. I didn't mean to to derail you, but I just wanted to to talk about the fact that some states have one agency, some states have two. So if you're if you're in a, if you're in a two state state with two agencies, you you have double. Double the fun, double the people to talk to if you're an employer. But I'll get back to you. Kathy West-Evans: Okay. But it's, you know, it's working together. And even if there are two separate agencies, then we work together. And that's the key thing, particularly when we're working with business. And I'll talk about that a little bit when we talk about the net and what we learn from the national employment team in our conversation with business. So but the vocational rehab system serves a wide range of individuals. So I'm glad you brought up the aging population, Kirk, because we're working with individuals who are transitioning from high school into their first career. And I think a key thing there is helping them understand the careers that are available and connecting them with, you know, what a career looks like from the perspective of a business and what you would need to do to enter that career and grow within it. So what's the appropriate training? What you know what? What will get the person the skill sets they need to be productive and and have the career of their choice. And we all know career a career is a journey, right, Kirk? You never you never end up where you think you're when you start. So you know, preparing people for that and supporting them in being successful. And then, you know, we serve people throughout the age range again to the aging population. Yes. Vision, hearing you know, mobility. Kathy West-Evans: Several things happen when you age. I'm wearing a lovely pair of glasses, but they're there for a reason, right? So, you know, it's it's thinking about how you continue to help keep people successful. And we work with a lot of businesses where people have acquired a disability. They may have had an accident or an illness or an injury or it's the aging process. And then how do we keep them working? Because these are often very, very talented and experienced people in a workplace. So the businesses want to keep them working. So we have that wide range of services. We also work with veterans. And I want to bring this one up, Kirk, because a lot of people don't know this, but we support veterans who have acquired their disability after service. The Veterans Administration supports veterans who have a service connected disability. But we work together. Okay. And as I said, my brother had an accident, but he's a veteran, so he receives medical support from our Seattle VA, which has been wonderful. But his voc rehab services come from our public vocational rehab program. So again, you know, it's how you help connect the systems to support the success of the person. And each state looks differently. Does that. Kirk, did you have something you wanted to add there? Thinking? Dr. Kirk Adams: No. Kathy West-Evans: Oh, okay. Okay. So there are a wide range of services for the individual that's sitting down and building a plan with the person and thinking about what they need. And so we look at you know, I think a key thing is not to get stuck in the medical diagnosis, right? Because you don't want to make assumptions about what a person can or can't do. That's the biggest barrier that people face in the workplace. And the one that we need to really talk about more. Kirk, so I appreciate you having this podcast because it allows us to open that dialogue. Yeah. But it's building around the person. And and again, you know, it could be training. It could be, you know, going to a university, it could be an apprenticeship and internship online classes you know, actual work experience and building from there. We could be looking at. Dr. Kirk Adams: People, and young people with disabilities can start receiving vocational related services. Is at age 14. Is that correct? Kathy West-Evans: It can. Yes. Again, the the definition of youth varies state to state in terms of how long they may be covered. If they're if they've been if they're born with a disability or acquire a disability at a young age. So. Dr. Kirk Adams: But we'd like to thank the Washington Department of Services for the blind, which was called Commission for the blind at the time. I went to graduated from Snohomish High School and went off to Whitman College in Walla Walla. Thank you for providing me with the cutting edge technology of the day, which was the IBM Selectric typewriter with the erase ribbon. So I was I was well equipped to head off to college with my slate and stylus to take notes during class in my Perkins brailler to recopy my notes and then to type my papers and tests. I had the amazing IBM Selectric provided to me by the Department of Services for the blind. Kathy West-Evans: Yes, we have a great we have a great Department of Services for the blind here. Yes. Yeah. So and again, that's an example of setting someone up for success. And, and Kirk, look where you've gone with your career. I mean I see so many people in their career journey who are now in, you know, they're they're leading initiatives and leading the work that we do with business and partnering and really supporting businesses in being successful. And I think, you know, that's one of the key things we want to focus on is how we support talent and retention of that talent. So on the business side, what we did was, as I said, you know, I started my career here in Washington State, but I always had a connection with business and, and worked with people who were deaf, hard of hearing, deaf, blind. So that's where I connected with Kirk early on. And the the goal of the program, though, was really listening to business. And that's the experience that I carried to my role in vocational rehabilitation. And from there, we built a program working with business and started to connect around the country. And when we started connecting around the country, because you've got to think of 78 different agencies, 15,000 staff, you know. But those of us who are working with businesses started thinking, you know, we're working with the same business. How do we do this better? How do we do it in a more coordinated fashion? So it's not as confusing for the business. And we're really understanding what they need. And it's not just putting someone in a job. First job, any job. Right. It's helping with that career strategy. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I've heard the term dual customer approach. Dual customer. You're you're serving two customers. You're serving the person with a disability who wants to be employed and live live their lives as a employed person earning a salary. And you also serve the business who needs to identify, attract, hire and retain talent? Kathy West-Evans: Absolutely, absolutely. And so that's where we started having that conversation. And some of us got together nationally and said you know, it's great that we have all these national employment conferences. Why don't we invite business to them so we can really hear from the business partners. So 20 years ago the we had a group of 35 businesses join us. And that included CEOs. It included, you know, HR, it included floor level managers, federal agencies. It included a wide range small, large businesses from different geographic areas. And we asked them, we're building careers. You know, what careers look like. You know the talent you need. What do we need to do differently to support you as a customer? And we heard a few really key points. Number one, build the trust. We want to have an open dialogue about what this all means and how we can best be successful. Build the partnership and build the strategy with the company. So really listen. Right. Don't assume that you know what a company needs, but really listen and make it easy to find you because every one of your agencies has a different name, right? And who do I call and how can it if I'm a state that if I'm a company that has a multi-state presence, I don't want to reinvent the wheel in every location. How do I build a strategy that I can move across the footprint of my business? Right. So that's where we started building what we now call the National Employment team or the net. You'll notice we use the net because business said VR virtual reality. What is it? Dr. Kirk Adams: So national employment team makes it pretty clear what you're doing. You're a team of people who focus on employment. So. Right. Kathy West-Evans: Right. And supporting business as a customer. Right. So and again we have. Dr. Kirk Adams: A wide range. Kathy West-Evans: Of services. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. I just wanted to mention another study. So this is a this is what you're addressing at the net. So there there was a study. It's probably about 20 years old. But they asked vocational rehabilitation counselors what is the greatest barrier to you successfully finding employment opportunities for the people you serve? And they asked employers, what is the greatest barrier to you working with the vocational rehabilitation system. So they basically asked the same question what is the greatest barrier? The vocational rehabilitation counselor said employer attitudes and the employer said lack of understanding of our operational needs. So that is what you're addressing by actually actually talking to businesses and asking them what their operational needs are. Kathy West-Evans: Yes, yes. So it's that, as you said earlier, we call it the dual customer strategy understanding we can build a plan with an individual, but that plan has to reflect what's needed in the workplace and building a plan with the with a company, but also understanding how we grow that plan across their footprint. Dr. Kirk Adams: Could you give us a could you give us a real world example case study of a business that has partnered successfully with the vocational rehabilitation system and the net, and what the strategy look like? I know there's many. Kathy West-Evans: There's over yeah, there's over 400. But you saw well, you saw some you saw some of them at the net summit. So yeah. Let's see. Which one would you like to start with? I mean, there was Microsoft, CVS, Walgreens. I mean, where do we want to go? Clean logic? Mclean industries. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, let's let's talk about McLean. Kathy West-Evans: Mclean. Okay. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: That was that was new to me, and it's huge. And I wasn't familiar with them until the person from McLean was present for both days of the summit. Kathy West-Evans: Yes, and Jennifer is an incredible person. So Jennifer is the inclusion and belonging manager at McLean. Mclean is based in Texas, and it's a you know, anytime you go to an am PM mini mart, a Taco Bell you name it, they are the company that gets the food supplies to these these businesses. Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. Kathy West-Evans: To be able to do their jobs. Dr. Kirk Adams: I think she said. Dr. Kirk Adams: They have 80 warehouse and distribution centers or something. Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. Kathy West-Evans: Absolutely. Yeah. So they look at food distribution. So the warehouse truck drivers, forklift drivers, a number of opportunities and needs within that company to keep that supply chain moving. Kathy West-Evans: So our Texas team has done a great job building the partnership locally, but we've picked up and we're expanding. In addition to our national employment team, the VR system also supports training centers. So we have eight physical training centers around the country. And then several of our agencies for the blind have training centers. So looking at what are the skill sets that this company needs, right. Whether it's hands on, working in a warehouse, driving a truck, forklift customer service, inventory control, you name it. What skill sets the need? And how do we work with the company to build them? Dr. Kirk Adams: And we can design training specifically to train people to to do the jobs that McClain needs to fill. Kathy West-Evans: Yes. Yes, absolutely. So right now, Jennifer is working with some of our training centers, and we're looking at the certificate and Warehouse. Work where the forklift. Because, you know, you can't train someone to. Operate a forklift on the floor in a warehouse. Sure, a little tricky. So how do we how do we train someone and then transition them into the workplace? And again, working with that company. Cvs is another great example. And you heard about the training center that we've developed with them in Virginia. Cvs, their CEO was at that meeting 20 years ago to help us build the net, and they've been a partner since. And you know, they hire anywhere between 800 and 1000 people from us a year. And they had a they had a need. They have warehouses, they have retail. They had a real need for pharmacy techs because anytime you, you know, it's not just distributing pharmaceuticals in a retail pharmacy, but it's also now that we have the increase in in mail order pharmaceuticals, you still have to be a technician. You have to be trained and and certified in that skill set. So we started working with them to build a program. They now have a registered a registered apprenticeship program, and we feed talent into all of those. We have people that work in retail and then decide they want to be a pharmacy tech and go into that field. And again, our growing careers within that company. So again, an example of another long term partnership. Dr. Kirk Adams: So just to restate so for for both McLean and CVS and the other 400 companies you're partnering with, you've gone in and carefully analyzed what their jobs are, what the job functions are, what skills are needed, what training is needed. In case some of them require certifications and the vocational rehabilitation system in your eight training centers, you have designed training specifically to prepare people to be successful in jobs at these particular companies. And so that's on that's on the menu of choice for people with disabilities who want to seek employment. And they become I don't know what the word is now client, consumer customer of vocational rehabilitation. And one of their choices might be to become a pharmacy technician for CVS. And if that is the career path they want, then they can be trained and certified. And that training and certification is funded and provided by the vocational rehabilitation system. That that a good summary. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. And I'd like to say, you know, when we're working with a business customer, think about it as taxpayer dollars back at work in the business. Right? Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Kathy West-Evans: We want to work with you to build your talent pipeline and to keep people working. And, you know, we're working with a people who want to go to work and they end up becoming taxpayers in this country. So that's right. You know. Kathy West-Evans: Let's, let's, let's talk. Dr. Kirk Adams: About all that the vocational rehabilitation system can bring to the table in supporting employers to successfully employ people with disabilities. I, I've seen instances where a salary was paid during an on the job training period or an internship. I've seen vocational rehabilitation teams come in and analyze a workplace and make recommendations for accommodations. I know personally when I first went to work out of college, I was I was provided with a refreshable Braille display by vocational rehabilitation because I needed it for that specific job. So tell tell us about all that vocational rehabilitation can do for for our employer community. Kathy West-Evans: Well, first it's sitting down and listening to the business. And we learned early on in our conversation with business. Look at it as a business and not just an employer, because in order to understand how someone has a career path within a company, look at the bigger picture. And so HR is always part of that discussion. But you know, when you're working with companies like Weyerhaeuser, you're also looking at warehouse, you know, staff and supports and facilities managers, etc.. So it's looking at the whole scope of people within a company and the whole range of people that would be engaging in that hiring process and supporting the success of companies. So really looking there, looking at the skill sets that accompany, you know, the recruitment and retention strategy that you're using, and how can we get people into an existing pipeline or help build a pipeline? Disability awareness, just that, that initial dialogue of what is disability? There's a lot of confusion about that term and just really opening the dialogue and answering questions, because that attitudinal barrier continues to be one of the biggest challenges, because we don't talk about it, people are uncomfortable asking the questions. Kathy West-Evans: Kirk. So we'll bring our team in. We'll sit down and have a discussion, and we really want people to feel comfortable. And with one of our company partners, we built a series over a period of time where there were questions by staff, you know, understanding that one out of four people in this country has a disability, and it's the population that any one of us can join at any time. What does that mean? Right. You know. And what does it mean to say you're blind? And is everyone who's blind? Can they not see well? No. Some people have usable levels of vision, and there are accommodations and, you know, assistive technology that supports all of us. So helping people understand that, I think is really helpful so that you take away that apprehension where people aren't making assumptions about what someone can and can't do. And that series went on to include, well, you know, we talk a lot about you know, deafness or hearing loss. We talk about ADHD, neurodiversities you know, a big growing topic. What does that mean? Kathy West-Evans: So this was a, you know, just. Dr. Kirk Adams: For the employer. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. And and yeah. Kathy West-Evans: The staff at the company and they asked and they said, please bring in, you know, bring in people to talk with us about what this means. And so we worked collaboratively. Dsb and the Division of VOC Rehab here set up even set up opportunities for people to see what the assistive technology looks like. Kathy West-Evans: You know, some people wanted to understand what does Braille mean, what does, you know, and then you demonstrate large print and how to change your font. And everyone uses it. Right? That's a accommodation that goes mainstream. It's good for everyone. Kathy West-Evans: That's right. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: So you know, the when I work with clients, companies who want to employ people with disabilities, I do a discovery process and I basically do ethnographic research. I interview their key leaders and, you know, understand what their objectives are. And, and they usually have a really good intent and they usually think too narrowly. They for instance, one large manufacturer thought Facture thought, you know, I can have a corner of this warehouse and I can have some, you know, blind people doing some packaging. Dr. Kirk Adams: Putting some stuff in boxes and putting labels on. And then we started talking about you could have a deaf person in it. You could have a wheelchair user in HR. Just think think that any, any job of these 2000 jobs that you have, a person with a person with a disability can do all of these jobs. So just to really broaden their thinking and taking people on field trips, I took that team to the Walgreens distribution center in Anderson, South Carolina. Dr. Kirk Adams: About 40% of the employees are people with disabilities. And Doctor Jeffrey Moore and his team at Anderson University have tracked the data since they opened that center in 2007. So by any metric, it's it's their it's their best warehouse and distribution center in the Walgreens system as far as productivity and turnover and absenteeism and safety. Best safety record, best employee satisfaction, best customer perception, all those things. So to. To take people there to really broaden their thinking is one thing I do. And then the next thing I do is I call. Kathy West-Evans. Kathy West-Evans: I say. Dr. Kirk Adams: For instance, in a case like you mentioned clean logic earlier. So Isaac Shapiro. Dr. Kirk Adams: One of the, the two co-founders of Clean Logic, his mother is blind, his business partner has a daughter who's autistic. And they sincerely wanted to hire people with disabilities. And they were doing so on their own. And they'd hired a number of blind people in their warehouse and distribution center near Philadelphia. And now they're onshoring their manufacturing into the same area, and they think they can hire up to 90 more people with disabilities there. And I called you and told you a little bit about Isaac and what they wanted to do there in Pennsylvania. And you connected them with the right resources in the vocational rehabilitation system. And now now they are full speed ahead on employing people with disabilities there at their company. Kathy West-Evans: Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. And Audubon Pennsylvania had a chance to be there for the ribbon cutting. And it's it is quite amazing. And there's a wide range of people with and without disabilities working together and collaborating in their production. And, you know, he's their products are amazing. And the fact that they have Braille on every one of their products is you know, is it awesome? It sends a great message. But Isaac and Michael and their families are just really committed to helping people understand the skill sets. Kathy West-Evans: Right? Dr. Kirk Adams: So for employers out there, if you want to even explore the Or the possibility of being more inclusive of people with disabilities in your workforce. Get in touch with me, and I will put you in touch with Kathy. She will put you in touch with the resources in the state or states in which you operate. And I do I do want to mention that when I have these conversations with employers and we talk about the capabilities of people with disabilities, they're oftentimes employers have not really worked with people with apparent disabilities or don't really realize they're actually working with people with disabilities in, in their company already, because, yes, not 70% of disabilities are not apparent. And and not everyone discloses their, their disability. But we talk about the strengths, you know, living every day with a disability gives us ample opportunity to meet and overcome challenges. And that's the way we develop strengths and that's the way we learn. So we need to be creative problem solvers all the time. So we develop really unique skills there. We need to be creative. We need to be persistent. We need to be resilient. We need to be good communicators. We need to know how to work in teams. So people with disabilities have a oftentimes a very unique set of strengths that can really add to a workplace. So I do always want to emphasize that. Kathy West-Evans: Well, Kirk, you talked about this. Dr. Kirk Adams: Is not an act of charity. This is a strategic business lever that you can use to again, supercharge your bottom line. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. Kathy West-Evans: And you talked about Walgreens and Randy Lewis, and we worked with them early on in Anderson. And you're absolutely right. More than 40% of that workforce are individuals with disabilities. Highest producing, lowest error rate, lowest turnover, highest safety rate. I mean, you could go on and on. And, you know, I think the key thing is it contributed to production. There was Randy, Joe Wendover, Deb Russell. You know, I could there's a whole host of great partners that have been connected with Walgreens, but their market share also went up, because if you think about in this country, one out of four people with a disability think about the individuals, but think about the families. Kathy West-Evans: Yes. Kathy West-Evans: And where do you want to do business? And you know that that business case particularly when you're you're serving and supporting family members, people are going to do business there. We choose in our family to do business with companies that support, you know, our population and our family member, whether we're traveling, grocery shopping, gas, whatever, we choose to support those companies. Dr. Kirk Adams: So you have members of the national employment team in every state. So any employer in these great United States who wants to explore being more inclusive of people with disabilities can connect with the right resources in their state or states if they're if they're multiple. And you mentioned earlier, rather than reaching out to ten vocational rehabilitation agencies and ten states, a multi-state company can have one, one point of contact can, to help educate and build, build the strategy. And then the other thing I wanted to ask you about, which again needs to stop being a best kept secret is the talent acquisition portal of great resource. If you could talk to us about that. Kathy West-Evans: Yes, yes. And I want to hit on some of the other services we provide as well. Kathy West-Evans: Yes, yes. Kathy West-Evans: But the the talent acquisition portal or tap, you see it's an easier acronym. Again, tap into talent, right? Yeah. When we started working with companies, the one question they had for us is where do we find the talent pool? Because we know in companies that there are a lot of people with disabilities already working there, but they haven't disclosed because they're afraid of how they would be seen by managers, coworkers, etc.. So you know, when we started seeing laws like the Ada in the Rehab Act, there's title five, which is section 503 for federal contractors. It was really about educating business. How do you help create a culture? How do you help create a pipeline where, you know, people with disabilities are coming into your workplace and create a culture within your workplace that supports them? So it was simple things like, you know, there was a lot of confusion with the Americans with Disabilities Act. What does this all mean? Well, one of the things that wasn't required, but that just made sense was just post notification, right? If you're a person with a disability and you're interviewing or working here and you have a need. Who do you ask? Right? Open up that dialogue and and help that person be successful to meet your needs. Well, you're supporting their needs. So the talent acquisition portal, what we found was we were looking at recruitment software and none of it was accessible. Kathy West-Evans: So if we've got candidates who use Braille or, you know, large print or some other form of accessing information, you know, how do we, how do we build a portal that does that. And we ended up connecting with a disability managed nonprofit out of San Diego, disabled persons abled in capital letters. And they said, sure, let's build something together. So we brought in candidates, individuals with disabilities, we brought in business partners, we brought in a number of people and said, what do we need to do? And that's really how we grew the talent acquisition portal or Tap. And what we did was we put in a resume builder and businesses told us things like, well, you know, a lot of times people speak a second language, which could be a benefit, or they have a security clearance, which could be a benefit. Let us know. So we started building those pieces in. People can indicate their geographic preference. So if a business is looking for a candidate in a specific area they can search on that. Where is your availability? Where can you go to work? Maybe it's not even the state you're currently living in, but you're looking to relocate or would be open to relocate. So building in features like that and enabling the people who are coming onto the portal are invited by either a vocational rehab agency. We've partnered with the VA. So Veterans Readiness and Employment, their program. We've partnered with Social Security. So we have several employment networks. We've got 7500 staff that are referring candidates, and we have over 40,000 candidates on the portal. Dr. Kirk Adams: So last number I heard was 28,000. Kathy West-Evans: So yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: You're growing by leaps and bounds. Kathy West-Evans: It's growing by leaps and bounds. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: And 40,000 detailed resumes of people with disabilities who are eager to work and have the backing of the vocational rehabilitation system to help work, work with employers to make successful employment outcomes for those individuals. Kathy West-Evans: Yes. Kathy West-Evans: And the platform continues to grow. So as remote work started to become becoming more prevalent, we're able to, you know, put the features in where people can search for remote opportunities. And you know, so there's. Kathy West-Evans: A lot of features. Dr. Kirk Adams: It's yeah, if I'm if I'm an employer listening to this, how do I, how do I get access to those 40,000 customers. Kathy West-Evans: Well, you can contact Kirk or I or you could go on to w.w.w. Org. Dr. Kirk Adams: And do I become a member, do I register, do I pay a fee? Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Employers access the resumes. Kathy West-Evans: So for on the employer side, what you're going to be able to do is you'll, you'll be able to count the number of people who are applying for jobs. You'll you can use the platform to search. We host virtual events on the platform. Everyone coming in has voluntarily self disclosed that they're an individual with a disability. So if you're a federal contractor, you know that. But for a business reach out and connect with our partner at disabled persons. So either a micro Chris Corso, I'm going to call him out here and they will help you get set up. We looked at you know, the what we would need just to break even. We're both nonprofit organizations, so you can have an annual unlimited posting and a virtual career for for $7,500. Kathy West-Evans: Wow. Kathy West-Evans: So it's the least expensive tool on the market. Yeah. And and great talent. We've seen people have great opportunities and make great connections. And for individuals, they may not have ever known about those opportunities with a company. And for companies, you know, finding easy access to that talent pool and knowing that if they have supports, just ask. You know, I wanted to talk about, you know, when we're working with companies and and this brings us to mind you know, if a company has a question, we've gone out and done worksite assessments with companies. We'll look at, you know, how do you make a worksite more accessible? When we started working here in this state with T-Mobile. Kirk. That's a while ago. But when John Stanton was the CEO of T-Mobile, now he owns the Mariners. Go, Mariners. Dr. Kirk Adams: Fellow Whitman College alumni. Kathy West-Evans: There you go. There you go. So it's a small world, but, you know, one of the things that they looked at was you know, making phone packages more accessible. And how do we make our technology accessible so it doesn't leave people behind? So they were the first phone company that offered individuals who were deaf to have a, a text only package. You didn't have to buy voice. And, you know, it seemed logical because texting was an accommodation built for deaf people that's gone mainstream. So, you know, it's working with companies to look at those solutions for a workplace and finding that when you have find a solution for a workplace, it benefits everyone. Like if Randy probably shared with you the story at Walgreens, when they when you pick and pack in a warehouse, it's a quick process, right? Kathy West-Evans: Right. Kathy West-Evans: And they had little print up there for the name of the products. And one of the recommendations someone made was put a picture. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. Kathy West-Evans: And guess what? It increased everyone's productivity. Right. It was easier to make that quick connection. So again it's it's how can we bring that expertise, whether it's assistive technology, a rehabilitation engineer, an OT or a PT, which we have on staff. How do we bring that that support to a company to really look at the accessibility and productivity of a workplace and how we can support that? Kathy West-Evans: Right. Dr. Kirk Adams: So I think every good employer wants to provide their employees with the tools and the techniques and the training they need to be successful and productive in their job. And depending on a person's impairment, whether it be visual, hearing, mobility, cognitive there are tools, special special tools, techniques and technologies specifically designed to help us be as productive and successful as we can be in the workplace. So that's what vocational rehabilitation rehabilitation to do is come in, look at your jobs, look at the worksite, make recommendations of tools, technologies, techniques, training that you can put in place so that your employees with disabilities can thrive and be successful, productive employees. Kathy West-Evans: Right. And you talked about, in addition to the consultation and support, the ability to really get people into the right training, supporting internships. Maybe on the job training. We've done that. We've worked with companies and have done internships and help support people that have, you know, they're just hired directly out of those internships into companies. And again, it's it's looking at the match. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, Kathy, this time has flown by, as it always does when I get to visit with you. But want to let people know how to get in touch with you and the national employment team. So what's the best way for people to get in touch with you? Kathy West-Evans: Well, we can give them our the email address. They can reach out to you. You know how to reach out to me, but Yeah, my email address is K West like north southeast. Kathy West-Evans: Hyphen. Kathy West-Evans: Evans Evans at CSR. Kathy West-Evans: Org yes. Dr. Kirk Adams: And I am Kirk Adams at Doctor Kirk Adams com. I'm also on LinkedIn. Every day Kirk Adams PhD on LinkedIn. And so please reach out to either Kathy or myself if you have any level of interest in understanding how you can supercharge your bottom line by being inclusive of people with disabilities in your workforce. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah, we've got talent. Right, Kirk? Kathy West-Evans: Absolutely. Kathy West-Evans: And I'm on LinkedIn along with you. Kathy West-Evans: So, you know. Kathy West-Evans: If that's the easiest way. Let's get the talent. Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you so much, Kathy. Looking forward to talking to you again very soon. And you enjoy the beautiful fall day here in sunny Seattle, Washington today. Kathy West-Evans: Yeah. Kathy West-Evans: Kirk, don't tell people it's sunny in Seattle. Kathy West-Evans: Okay. It's raining. It's raining. Okay. All right. Take good care. Kathy West-Evans: Thank you so much, Kirk. It's always great working with you. I appreciate your partnership. Dr. Kirk Adams: Thanks. And we'll see you next month on my monthly live stream webinar, which is the last Thursday of every month at 11 a.m. Pacific time. Supercharge your bottom line disability inclusion. Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Elizabeth Whitaker and Rachel Buchanan of Vispero to explore how AI and JAWS' 30-year legacy are converging to expand employment and independence for people who are blind or low vision. After Kirk shares a personal JAWS origin story from 1995, Liz and Rachel trace their own paths through VR and training, then introduce Freedom Scientific's new "Learn AI" series: live, first-Thursday-at-noon ET webinars that begin with fundamentals (terminology, prompting, hands-on practice) and progress to specific tools, ChatGPT in October, then Gemini and Copilot in November. Each session is archived with step-by-step exercises and resources, and early interest is strong with 900+ registrants for the kickoff. They also preview FS Companion AI, built into JAWS/ZoomText 2025, which delivers up-to-date, task-level answers for JAWS, ZoomText, Microsoft 365, Google Workspace, and web navigation. The trio candidly addresses AI's fallibility and bias, underscoring the need for accurate, representative training data, while swapping pragmatic tips (e.g., using an iPhone's Action button for instant Voice Mode) and hinting at forthcoming features to streamline interaction with web pages and apps. The conversation closes with a shared commitment to evolve the series and tools so blind users can turn AI into a practical, competitive advantage at work. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am Doctor Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And I don't use the doctor title too often, but I use it sometimes. And it's because I have a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University and my dissertation is called Journeys Through Rough Country, an ethnographic study of blind adults successfully employed in large American corporations. So I talked to lots of cool blind people working at lots of companies that we all know and found out what their elements of success, were. First I asked them, why do you how do you identify success? What what what do you use as your criteria to say I am successful, employed, and everybody said money in one form or another, to have enough income to have economic independence and freedom and to be able to make decisions about how to spend the money they earned. Looking at the success factors, everyone talked about family and friends support. Many of them, talked about working on a team like a sports team or a choir when they were younger. Many of them talked about having a strong internal locus of control, a real sense that they could overcome obstacles, solve problems.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And many of them attributed that to some experiences when they were young, usually in the teen years, and often to do with outdoor experiences like horseback riding and rock climbing and downhill skiing and things like that. And before I get to the next success factor, I will say that they all expressed disappointment that things were so difficult still, that they were perhaps the only blind person who'd reached their level in their company, that they didn't see role models in the C-suite or on the board who were blind that they continually had to battle for accessibility and accommodations, and many cited instances in which their employers would make changes to systems without considering accessibility, rendering them unable to do their jobs. And another factor everybody talked about was accessibility, the need to master assistive technology and to be able to access systems. Which leads us to today's guests. And we have Rachel Buchanan and Elizabeth Whittaker with us today from Vispero. And say you say hi, Rachel and Elizabeth. Hi.   Elizabeth Whitaker: Hello. And thank you for having us.   Rachel Buchanan: Yeah, we're so happy to be here.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So for those who don't connect Vispero with JAWS. Vispero provides us with Job Access With Speech, JAWS, screen reading software. This is year 30. I am a proud, proud to say that I use JAWS version one.   Rachel Buchanan: Oh, wow.   Elizabeth Whitaker: Right.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And what would that be? 1995. And.   Rachel Buchanan: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Working for the Seattle Public Library Foundation. And I had a refreshable braille display and JAWS. And I was able to do my job access systems, and and it's been it's been my constant daily companion ever since then. I have a daughter named Rachel who's 35, and she grew up she was born in 1990. So she's she's her, her, her JAWS as she grew up. And she told a story of she moved to the Bay area and she walked in to to connect with a friend of mine who was executive director of the World Institute on Disability. Nita. Aaron. And when she walked into the office, she heard JAWS. She said she went running in and said, I feel like I'm at home. I hear JAWS.   Elizabeth Whitaker: So she knew what that was. She recognized it right off.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's how important it is to our our family.   Rachel Buchanan: But yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm really, really excited today to hear about your AI learning training series. So I'm going to hand the microphone over to the two of you. I will reserve the right as podcast host to pop in with a question or two if you if you what you're most likely to do, say something that's over my head. Technically, I may have to ask for some clarification, but yeah.   Elizabeth Whitaker: As many questions as you want. Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: In any case, the floor is yours.   Elizabeth Whitaker: All right, well, thank you for having us here. And I just wanted to mention something that you said that was really important, talking about success and how people view success. And I think that, you know, what we're able to do in our training department because that's, you know, we we create a lot of training events and training content. And what we're able to do in our training department is provide people with the skills and the tools that they need to be successful. And so it's great to be a part of that.   Rachel Buchanan: It definitely is. And this initiative kind of to look into AI and add to our training webinar series is because we already do our regular monthly training webinar was born because we just wanted to look at the way AI is going to impact the employment space for people who are blind and low vision, negatively or positively. Just because, you know, we all hear like, oh, it's going to take jobs. And in some cases it is, but also in other cases it's just going to change them. Right. So we want to dive into what that means. We've looked at a bunch of research from AFB. Thank goodness. They've they've already, you know, gotten into that space somewhat and turned over a few stones and done some research, but we've looked at a lot of that and landed on. You know, learning skills and embracing AI as a tool as part of that solution.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Before we dive into that, let's let's hear a little bit about the two of you. And how did you come to be involved in accessibility and disability inclusion and doing the work you do?   Elizabeth Whitaker: Sure. Okay. So I wasn't sure who was going to go first. So I'm Liz and I actually after graduating from college, I was looking for ways to learn more about technology because I knew, I mean, I'd been using it for quite some time, but I knew it was going to be very important in my career, whatever I did. And I also knew that it was really important to keep up with technology. So I started out by working in vocational rehabilitation in Arkansas, and after number a number of years working there as the Director of technology, I was able to come to Vispero, where I was able to create training on a more global level. So it was very exciting in that aspect.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And are you are you a at user yourself?   Elizabeth Whitaker: Yes, I sure am. I use JAWS, I use Braille and all different types of technology because, you know, it's all about using the tools that we have available to us, and there are many tools out there. So I am definitely a longtime Jaws user and Braille user.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Cool. Me too.   Rachel Buchanan: And me as well. And I'm older than you are. Rachel by a handful of years and have been using JAWS for a good long time, but got into the blindness rehabilitation space and just love technology. So that was kind of where I fit best and just love to see people kind of rehabilitate after the vision loss process and get back to work. And so that I worked in that space for 15 years, almost before I came to Vispero. And now I'm here. I've been here since 2018.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Great. So we're all JAWS users?   Multiple Speakers: Yes, yes. Good.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Back to you. I just need to know a little bit about you, too.   Rachel Buchanan: Well, that was good. It was good. I kind of forgot that piece. So I said a little bit about background about the series. Liz, do you want to tell a little bit about what it is?   Elizabeth Whitaker: Absolutely. So one of the things that we talked about when creating this AI series, we do a lot of webinars. We do one a month. Well actually now two including this. But you know, since AI is constantly evolving, we wanted to create a series that we were going to be able to evolve with, and it was going to be something that was ongoing. And so when putting together the, you know, thinking about the webinars and the different topics we were going to cover, we thought, well, this is more than just webinars. This is going to be creating tools, creating resources, or showing people where to go get those resources. Because there are many different AI tools out there. There are many ways to use it. So we thought, well, why not build a website and have all of these different resources together in one place? And that's what we did. So if you go to Freedom Scientific Commons AI, there you will find several sections. It's all sectioned off into different headings. So there's a section there for upcoming webinars. And we currently have those listed through December. We're going to be adding more very soon. And so we started out by doing a couple of webinars. We started in August actually doing a couple of webinars to introduce people to AI and introduce them to the different concepts like prompting and the terminology that you need to know. Like, you know, what is a large language model? What are these different things that you hear about all the time in regards to AI. And then starting in October, we're actually moving on to specific AI tools. So in October, our webinar is going to be on ChatGPT.   Elizabeth Whitaker: Then we're going to move on in November to Gemini and Copilot and so forth. And so we hold these webinars the first Thursday of every month at noon eastern. So on that learned AI page, you'll find a heading there for our upcoming webinars. And then once we hold a webinar, we archive it there under a heading called lessons. So this is where you can go to listen to the webinars that we've already done. And in addition to that, we've also added the exercises that contain the tasks that we do in each webinar. So it goes right along with what we're talking about, all the different topics. It's all right there. You can go, you can read about it, you can practice and you can listen to those once again. And we do this because what we really want to do is create learning paths so that people if somebody comes to the site and they think, where, where do I start? I don't even know where to begin. It's going to show them the learning path to, you know, here's the introduction, here are the different tools. And then you have all your jumping off points that you can go to if you just want specific information. So you'll all find also find their resources, for example links to different AI tools, links to terminology. So you know, there's just a lot of different resources there. And we're going to keep building this page out so that it will contain more and more information and just give everyone a path to learn how to use AI.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm a hands on learner. I say. Reading. Reading a book about how to ride a bike is a lot different than actually trying to ride a bike. So I like to learn by doing so I'm intrigued. You mentioned there's hands on practical applications and those can't remember the exact term used, but but those hands on tactical doing steps that are outlined there in their archive there. So a person can sit with that and work with these various AI tools, with the guidance that you provide.   Rachel Buchanan: Yes. Because you're not.   Multiple Speakers: Going to.   Rachel Buchanan: Get the feel for it until you do it. And they all kind of react a little differently depending on depending on your input. And so we just want people to understand that these are a tool that you can have in your toolkit and learn to use. It doesn't have to be anything that you're intimidated by. And yeah, the practice exercises make it really handy. We're trying to make it very hands on so people don't feel that intimidation.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So Liz and Rachel, do you two lead the webinars? Do you have a certain various people who lead various sections? What's what's the What's the vision there?   Elizabeth Whitaker: So we lead the webinars, but we are also going to be partnering with some people here in the very near future. More information to come on that very soon. And we what we what we do is we introduce the topics and then we talk about different terminology, different terms that people need to know for that particular webinar. And then we delve right into tasks. And these are the things these tasks are what we also create those exercises from. So if somebody listens to a webinar or we also transcribe them. So if somebody reads that transcription, whatever their preference is, and then they want to go back and practice those tasks, they have that those exercises to use. And it's taken right from that webinar.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And do people register in advance. How do people get connected? And for the first Thursday of every month at noon eastern.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Elizabeth Whitaker: So they do they register. In fact, we had over 900 registrants for the first webinar, which was really exciting.   Multiple Speakers: That's awesome.   Elizabeth Whitaker: So it tells us, you know, people are really interested. They're engaged. Yeah. You just go register. In fact, on that page, there is a registration link for each upcoming webinar.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's freedom. I wrote it down. Freelance freedom, scientific comm slash learning.   Elizabeth Whitaker: I learn AI.   Multiple Speakers: Yes, learn. Okay, I'll take AI. I'll.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I just deleted the ING contraction. So. Got it.   Rachel Buchanan: There you go.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Elizabeth Whitaker: So we're very excited. And we get a lot of comments in the chat about things that people during the webinars about things that people want to learn. You know, we've gotten a lot of feedback about where people are in their AI journey. And so this is our opportunity to help someone, no matter where they are in that journey.   Multiple Speakers: And where.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Are you at in your AI journey personally.   Multiple Speakers: Or professionally? I think we.   Elizabeth Whitaker: Both use it every day, right? But there's always a lot to learn. I feel like, you know.   Rachel Buchanan: Yeah, we.   Multiple Speakers: Use it a lot.   Rachel Buchanan: But we also I mean, it's definitely fallible, right? But we. Sure, we we use it a lot for, for different things. Maybe just brainstorming. What do you use it for most?   Elizabeth Whitaker: Liz I would say brainstorming, summarizing, analyzing writing prompts if I need help getting started with something. Yeah, but, you know, we also have other coworkers who taught us some really interesting ways to use it. You know, like getting AI to create prompts for you. If you're not, you know, sure how to create a prompt or things like that. So everyone always has something to bring to the table. I feel like.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Rachel Buchanan: And analyzing data, it's just it's it's unmatched in that area when it comes to just looking at I look at our training page, our web page data on that topic, and it's very helpful to go through all of that. Those strings of numbers?   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, I use it. I'd say the most I use it for is to kind of complete do the last organizing and polishing of writing. So I'll open a word document if I, if I need to or want to write something about something, I'll just kind of do a stream of consciousness, write down what I want included not necessarily worry about the order or the flow and then, you know, put put it in a, a tool and say, please, please, please organize this. And then I'll take what they have and go through it again and edit it again. But it really helps with kind of organizing and putting things in logical sequence. If that's the type of writing, the type of academic writing that needs to be done, not not asking it to compose anything necessarily. So that works great. And then you know, putting I'll say Chit chat ChatGPT app on the phone and starting to learn voice mode. That's that's been a wonderful thing.   Multiple Speakers: Oh yeah.   Rachel Buchanan: Yes. My number one tip on that is that if you have one of the newer iPhones with the action button.   Rachel Buchanan: You can set that action button. Default goes straight to voice mode. And I just think that's so cool.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Elizabeth Whitaker: Push a button and talk to it. Right.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I need to figure out I will figure out how to do that.   Rachel Buchanan: Yeah, it's very neat.   Multiple Speakers: And you know.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And then I do things like my wife needed to buy a new pair of shoes so fast. She wants to go to an outlet mall. What are what what's within an hour drive where she can get a good deal on some shoes.   Multiple Speakers: That's great for that deal.   Elizabeth Whitaker: They'll tell.   Multiple Speakers: You. It'll tell.   Elizabeth Whitaker: You. When you said something kind of that was really important that we talked about in our last webinar, which is you know, revising that you go back through and you look at what it did for, for writing, as far as, you know, you run it through, you tell it to ask it to organize, and then you go back through and revise. And we just did a complete webinar on creating prompts and then going back and reviewing and revising. So I like that you hit on that there.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Well I have seen it say some outrageous things that I would never say.   Multiple Speakers: Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Give some examples that are that I don't know that they actually really happened. So we'll, we'll make stuff up if it needs to fill in blanks.   Multiple Speakers: It can, but it's a.   Dr. Kirk Adams: It's an amazing tool as far as work goes. And for people who are blind and visually impaired, in particular, I think you mentioned there's kind of this fear that AI is going to take people's jobs away. I, I read something recently along the lines of it's, it's going to create jobs and enhance jobs for people who know how to use AI as a tool. So I know that's a large part of what you're doing.   Multiple Speakers: Right. Right.   Dr. Kirk Adams: But as far as accessibility I just want your thought on this so I know we're either of you at CSUN.   Multiple Speakers: Yes. You're both. Okay.   Rachel Buchanan: Both.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Me, too. Didn't next year, we'll   Multiple Speakers: Definitely Let's do it.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So it was all about images, right? Image description. Smart glasses. Everyone was very, very excited about having things just described to them. Visual, visual information. And you know, I was talking to some people who know a lot more about it than I do, and they basically said, well, it's that that that's very, very exciting. It's very, very cool. But next year it'll all be about AI and how to use AI to actually accomplish work functions as as an agent. So have you experienced admitted with that, or are you going to be talking about that in your learning series?   Elizabeth Whitaker: Yeah, I don't I don't know that we've experimented with that yet, but that is something that is coming and we will definitely be talking about that as as things evolve and we all know how fast AI has evolved just in the last year, year and a half. And it's going to keep evolving.   Multiple Speakers: So right. And so will.   Rachel Buchanan: Be training series. We're going to kind of evolve it based on we kind of have a roadmap for it, but it's going to change a little bit based on what comes out. And then we also have some features in like Jaws, fusion, Zoomtext coming out that are pretty cool, that are related to AI too, that you just made me think of.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So anything you can share or is it still secret?   Multiple Speakers: Well.   Rachel Buchanan: Were you at either of the summer shows?   Dr. Kirk Adams: I was not.   Rachel Buchanan: I think we can.   Multiple Speakers: Share share what.   Dr. Kirk Adams: You.   Multiple Speakers: Shared there.   Elizabeth Whitaker: Let's just say that it's going to enhance how you interact with web pages and.   Multiple Speakers: Apps.   Elizabeth Whitaker: In a way that is really, really interesting and helpful.   Rachel Buchanan: Right?   Dr. Kirk Adams: Fabulous.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Rachel Buchanan: I think you'll.   Multiple Speakers: Really enjoy it.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. The other thing that came to mind and just your thoughts on it is, you know, they bias that can be built into large language models because the AI is based on data and the data is gathered through people using technology, people who are blind and people who have disabilities use technology less than people who don't have parents. So our data that represents our lived experience is underrepresented. And, you know, there were some early, early red flags around things like resumes being eliminated from employment processes because of gaps in employment, for instance. Or there was a, an instance where early autonomous vehicles autonomous vehicle did not recognize a woman in a wheelchair as a person. And there was a, you know, there was a death. So those are some pretty stark examples. But have you have you thought about that? Have you had dialogue about that? I'm really interested in perhaps understanding how we, as a community of people with disabilities could ameliorate that by making sure our data is represented proportionately, but any any thoughts?   Elizabeth Whitaker: I would say in terms of data, it's a matter of making sure that AI is trained on the correct data, making sure that all the information out there in whatever, whatever the topics are, that we want to make sure people are getting the right info about are correct. And just continuing to train AI on those topics and making sure that the information is kept up to date, I think is one of the biggest keys, you know, that we talk about. So and this is kind of along the same lines, but, you know, we have our FS companion, which is our AI learning tool for learning Jaws and Zoomtext and other applications. And so we are constantly ingesting the latest, most up to date information into it regarding not only our products, but for example, Microsoft or Google Workspace or other third party products as well, to make sure that when people look up the information, or maybe they want to know how to perform a certain task. They have that most up to date information and it's correct.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Can you tell me more about that learning tool?   Elizabeth Whitaker: Absolutely. So this was a tool that was built into Jaws and Zoomtext 2025. So it's built right into the software. So you can run it from Jaws. You can run it from Zoomtext or fusion, or you can go to Fssw companions II. And there you can just ask it questions. So if you want to ask, you know, what is the keyboard command to read a window title and JAWS? Or how do I magnify my screen in Zoomtext you can ask those questions. You can ask it questions about other applications like navigating web pages or using you know, for example, outlook. How do I create a signature and outlook, things like that. So you just go ask the questions, you can chat with it. It will give you those step by step instructions. And you can save those, you know, copy and paste them And get your information right there.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Just took another note FFS. Companion AI.   Multiple Speakers: Yes, so I.   Rachel Buchanan: Didn't realize this was set from 4 to 430. I have to jump. I have our new CEO calling me and I need to.   Multiple Speakers: Tell you better. You better.   Rachel Buchanan: I know.   Multiple Speakers: Okay, I'll stay on the jump to continue. Rachel. Goodbye, Rachel.   Rachel Buchanan: Yeah. Thank you so much.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I know we got a little bit of a late start, and we'd love to have you.   Multiple Speakers: Back as.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Things unfold with the learning series.   Rachel Buchanan: Yeah. Thank you so much. And, Liz, I know you can rock this. So thank you so much. Thanks to you guys. Later.   Multiple Speakers: Bye. Okay, thanks.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, Liz I've learned a lot. I'm very excited about the learning series. I'm happy to share information about it, which we'll do through this podcast. And and we'll do a blog post about it. Great. But if you could just give a give a closing summary of the learning series and how again re repeat how people can connect and register.   Multiple Speakers: Sure.   Elizabeth Whitaker: So you can get everything you need by going to Freedom Scientific AI. And there you'll find everything that is included in this series, which is based around our monthly webinars, which take place the first Thursday of every month at noon eastern. You can register for those webinars. We archive them there. So those will every time we have a webinar, those will be archived right there on that page. You can go back and listen to them. We include practice exercises taken straight from the tasks that we demonstrate in the webinars. So you'll be able to go back and practice everything that we talked about. And we also provide some helpful resources there for your AI journey. So everything you need to know can be found at Freedom Scientific AI. And if you have any questions or you need help registering. Send an email to training at dot com and Vespera is Victor India Sierra Papa echo Romeo Oscar. It's training at Vispero.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Com terrific. Well thank you. Our guest today have been Liz Whitaker and Rachel Buchanan from Vispero, the makers of JAWS 30th year anniversary. There was a big huge inflatable shark at CSUN in.   Multiple Speakers: Celebration of.   Dr. Kirk Adams: The 30 years.   Multiple Speakers: Yes, which.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Was a lot of fun. Yeah, I've been a 30 year JAWS user. I love what you all are doing and how you work hard to keep up with the times and the evolving technologies. So people such as you and I, Liz and Rachel, who are blind or visually impaired can fully participate in all aspects of society. And I'm just really pleased to have you and want to have you back again?   Elizabeth Whitaker: Thank you. We'd love to come back. And thank you for everything that you do.   Multiple Speakers: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And I'm Doctor Kirk Adams. If you want to get in touch with me, email Kirk Adams at Kirk adams.com. Find me on LinkedIn. Kirk Adams, PhD. Thanks for tuning in to podcast with Doctor Kirk Adams and see you next time.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.  

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Paolo Gaudiano, Founder & Chief Scientist at Aleria to unpack how measuring day-to-day workplace experiences, rather than headcounts or vague culture scores, translates inclusion into business outcomes. Gaudiano traces his path from computational neuroscience and complexity modeling to a 2015 "lightbulb moment" that led him to build simulations and tools showing how inclusion lifts productivity and retention, and how focusing on diversity alone can spark backlash. He outlines the premise of his 2024 book Measuring Inclusion: Higher Profits and Happier People, Without Guesswork or Backlash, and makes the practical case for aligning inclusion with financial performance rather than sentiment. Together they dig into method and evidence: an anonymous platform that captures specific incidents interfering with success, tagged by experience categories (e.g., respect, advancement, compensation) and sources (policy, leadership, managers, peers, clients), then linked to satisfaction, productivity, and attrition, quantified with an "impact calculator." They explore turnover and productivity costs (from months of salary at entry level to years at senior ranks), human-factor risks in cybersecurity, and simple fixes (structured reviews, better meetings) that benefit everyone, often disproportionately helping disabled employees and women. Adams adds historical data points (DuPont; Walgreens) and closes with ways to engage Gaudiano's work (Aleria, LinkedIn, TED talk), a limited-time $0.99 Kindle promotion for the book, and a promise to reconvene for a part two on building true meritocracies. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability Inclusion, which is my live streamed webinar that I joyfully host every month. I am Doctor Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle. And really, the premise of this monthly session is how can organizations become better, stronger, more aligned with their missions and their values and their objectives by being intentionally inclusive of people with disabilities in their workforce, which falls under the umbrella of inclusion writ large. And today I am thrilled. I'll use that word thrilled to have Paolo Gaudiano with us. He's the chief scientist for Illyria. I became aware of Illyria when I was in my role as president and CEO at the American Foundation for the blind, and a blind friend and colleague, Sara Minkara, invited me to attend a virtual event that Illyria was hosting. And I signed up for the newsletter. And I've read faithfully ever since. And what what Paolo focuses on is measuring inclusion and creating true meritocracy. And I've been thinking a lot about meritocracy this year. Really catalyzed early in the year with the terrible mid-air collision between the military helicopter and a domestic airline flight over the Potomac. And some statements by President Trump in the immediate aftermath, really linking the accident to the fact that the Federal Aviation Administration was intentionally inclusive of people with disabilities in their applicant pool and making a pretty, pretty jarring connection between disability and incompetence. And the conversations I often have with employers center around how people develop strengths. And we develop strengths as human beings by overcoming challenges and living every day with a with an impairment or impairments which places a disabling situations allows us a blind person such as myself, a person with a significant disability to develop some really unique strengths in areas that are are great assets and a wonderful characteristics that people with disabilities can bring to an organization through being employed.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So when I read the Aleria newsletter and I read about creating true meritocracies and how to measure the impacts of inclusion there's a lot of resonance with me. And I had a chance to get on a call with Powell earlier in the year and, and talk to him about some of his, his prescient thinking several years ago about the, current backlash attack on Di, which which he saw coming, and the way that Paolo and Aleria are approaching, creating inclusive environments for the betterment of all, for the betterment of society. So I'm just I'm thrilled to have you with us, Paolo. I'd really like to hand you the talking stick, and you can take this conversation wherever, wherever it may lead you. And I happily chime in with a question or two as they arise to me, and then we'll give folks who are have joined us live an opportunity to ask questions, and then we'll, we'll let those who are viewing the recording know how best to get in touch with both of us toward the end. So, Paolo, I'm so glad you're with us here today. I've been anxiously awaiting this opportunity to learn from you.   Paolo Gaudiano: Thank you. Kirk. It's first of all, it's a real pleasure and honor to be here on the show with you. I I wish that I could say that I'd known you for all these years. I only found out about your work recently and found it to be quite amazing and inspiring. I am grateful to Sarah. Sarah is an amazing person. I attended one event that she did. That really the way that she talks about disability, the way that she essentially lives out what it means to be a person with a disability and yet to be able to be contributing to society in amazing ways was was quite an inspiration. So I'm particularly grateful that you made that connection through her. And I just want to start out by again, thank you, first of all, for an amazing introduction. It was it was quite, you know, quite heartwarming to hear all these wonderful, very positive comments from you. And I hope that I live up to that expectation now. I kind of feel like maybe I should just stop here and say goodbye and, you know, let your you know, your introduction work as a kind of the core of the show. But I do like to start out. I always like to acknowledge for those of you that are only listening, or for those of you that are not able to see me, I am a white man. I'm in my 60s. I like to joke that I look like I'm in my 30s, but I'm, you know, white hair. Well, let's call it gray hair and.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I call mine silver.   Paolo Gaudiano: But there you go. Mine. Mine is maybe slightly less silver than yours, but very cool. Thank you. And the I always like to point that out because I often when I, when I give presentations, I start by jokingly referring to myself as the white elephant in the room. And I have not only my white and male, but I happen to be cisgender heterosexual. I do not have any permanent disabilities. And I, you know, people wonder, what am I doing in diversity, equity and inclusion? And I'd like to briefly tell about the history of how I came into this space, which is a space that I've now been working in for ten years or so. Since 2015. I had actually been interested in Dei on the personal level, and I first became aware of some of the what I thought were very strange things in the United States when I first came here as a teenager, and I was from Italy, my native Italy, and I was exposed to some situations that made me realize that there was some very odd ways that people in this country behaved when it came to racial if you will, tensions. And so I was always interested in that. I was intrigued by the fact that there were people that were being mistreated because of their gender, their race, their sexual orientation, their disabilities.   Paolo Gaudiano: I always felt that that was wrong. And I felt that, you know, intuitively, it seemed wrong to me. But I always felt like, you know, what can I do? I'm not an activist. I'm just a white dude. And I would go to conference sessions on, you know, how do you get more people with disabilities into leadership roles or how do you, you know, create greater employment opportunities? Or how do you get more women into into more, you know, higher managerial roles? And I was always kind of struck by the difference between the individual experiences that people shared of things that happened to them because of their personal characteristics, and when it came to solutions They were talking about very vague, general things that we talk about things like, you know, how do we dismantle systemic racism? You know, how do we change the hearts and minds of corporate America? And one day in 2015, as I was sitting there literally thinking, you know, how can somebody close that gap between the individual level experiences and what happens at the organizational level? I had a light bulb moment where I realized that the work that I had been doing for virtually my entire career had been focused on exactly that, on quantifying the link between individual elements in a system and what happens to the system as a whole.   Paolo Gaudiano: And that actually began as an undergraduate, and then later in my in my master's degree and my PhD, I studied the brain. I studied computational neuroscience, among other things, which was really about building computer simulations that would help us understand how circuits in the brain can somehow collectively combine the power of individual neurons, which by themselves are not particularly powerful devices. And yet when you combine them, you can do amazing things like speaking and hearing and learning and moving. And so I learned how to connect the individual to the collective in a quantitative way. And then later I was a professor for almost ten years. Then I became an entrepreneur where I applied those same ideas to understand at the next level up, how do you get a lot of people in an organization to contribute to the success of the organization, or people in a city, or whether it's maybe it's a team or sports teams or, or highway, you know, drivers, you know, how do they contribute to traffic jams? And so when I started to get into Dei, it was because I thought that there may be an opportunity to quantify the benefit that companies would get by treating all their employees better. And I saw that as an opportunity. I got very excited. As I said, this was in 2015. I literally dropped everything else that I was doing and started to build some of these computer simulations and proved to myself very quickly that I was onto something exciting.   Paolo Gaudiano: And in particular, what excited me was that I always felt that even though I firmly believe in fairness and justice and I don't like I don't like inequalities. I don't like disparities that are to me, senseless. I also realize that for most corporate leaders, they are ultimately judged on how much money they make and whether or not you like it. I think they're trying to convince people that they should do the right thing is a dangerous thing to do, because even if they agree with you, the moment that there is a change in in the political headwinds or in the case, like in the last few months or several months, it's more like a tornado in the opposite direction. The fact is that people will kind of give up on any notions of doing the right thing if it's not aligned with their financial needs. And so I saw an opportunity to help individual organizations figure out how can you make more money by making your people happier. And so the first book that I wrote in 2024, which was the result of having worked for several years and developed this unique way of measuring inclusion, specifically has the title.   Paolo Gaudiano: So the title is Measuring inclusion and the subtitle is Higher Profits and Happier People. And then it says also without guesswork or backlash. And and I will say, since you talked about by being a bit prescient, I want to talk about the the reason why I specifically talked about not just higher profits and happier people, but also the guesswork and the backlash. So so the guesswork. And I was very adamant about including that in the subtitle, was to acknowledge the fact that this was not about, oh, let's try to do something. Let's sprinkle some magic dust and let's see what wonderful things will happen. It's really about building, essentially tools and collecting data that helps you to make very, very careful and very wise decisions that will actually help you without having to do a lot of guesswork. The backlash was because as you as you mentioned in passing during the introduction as early as 2018. So after a few years of working in this space, I had come to the conclusion that the single minded focus on diversity as the primary, if not the only yardstick to measure progress and to and to determine how companies were doing. I saw that as a as a really big mistake because I, I saw I had the realization that diversity is really kind of a state of being.   Paolo Gaudiano: It's the outcome of everything that happens in the company. And trying to fix diversity directly is a mistake. It's a little bit like walking in a cold house in the winter and deciding that you want to make the house warmer. You look at the thermostat, it says 50 degrees, so you light a match under the thermostat. Well, in the meantime, you know, the windows are drafty and the front door is wide open, the roof is leaking, and you might burn the house down. And unfortunately, that's exactly what happened. You know, I wrote an article in 2018, you know, in April of 2018, it was more than two years before before the murder of George Floyd. And we just said specifically, if companies continue to focus on diversity alone, it will cause backlash from white men complaining about reverse discrimination. And it may spread to other parts of society like affirmative action. And it's the only time in my life that I've actually made a prediction that came out to be correct. And unfortunately, unfortunately, it was a grim prediction. And and it was quite correct. So. So let me stop there. I know I threw a lot of material at you, but but I'd love to hear your thoughts and maybe any questions or comments that you have or things that you want me to touch up on?   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So there's a little bit of data around disability inclusion. There's not there's not a lot as far as bottom line results go. So DuPont did a longitudinal study for several decades tracking the performance of their employees, self-identified as disabled. So things like you know, lower absenteeism, lower turnover and better safety records and things like that. And then Anderson University in Anderson, South Carolina, doctor Jeffrey Moore and his PhD students for the past 17, 18 years have been tracking data from the Walgreens warehouse and distribution center there, which employs about 40% of their workforce. 40% of their the 550 employees are people with disabilities, primarily developmental disabilities, and they've tracked the positive business results. Again lower absenteeism, lower turnover, better safety record, better employee satisfaction, better customer perception. Better productivity. Those those things. But there's there's not a lot data to to support my, my ongoing conversations that people can improve their business results if they're more inclusive of people with the unique skills and strengths developed through living with disability. So you talk about measuring inclusion and you talked about the motivations around you put it very clearly making money. So could you talk a little bit about how we do that? How do we measure the impacts of of being inclusive in And organizations.   Paolo Gaudiano: Yeah. And actually, you I want to sort of build on something that you said, you know, when you were talking about the studies and you pointed out that there are not a lot of studies specifically that look at the financial benefits or the or the benefits of disabilities in particular. But the reality is that there is there is an interesting phenomenon, which is that I would argue that there are many aspects of work in general where often you see companies that are doing the right thing and they see positive results, and yet other people don't do it. And you kind of wonder why. And I think the reality is that when you see that something is happening in another company, you don't really know how that's going to translate into your own space. Right? Every company is like a unique ecosystem. And there's this fear that, well, just because it worked for this particular company, just because it worked for Walgreens, while my environment is different and my equipment is different and my culture is different, and I've seen that in other spaces, I've been working on a project that has to do with creating better working conditions for frontline workers. And there are some phenomenal examples of of work that shows real world case studies that show that if you treat your frontline workers better, they will actually not only outperform, but they create a superior financial return for your company. And yet people don't do it. And so I think that there is a there's a first observation, which is that it's maybe related to identity and whether, you know, does it have to do with disability.   Paolo Gaudiano: Does it have to do with race and ethnicity or gender or sexual orientation? But I think there's just a universal problem. And that was really sort of the key of what I, what I found when I was doing my research is that I found a way to go to a specific company and do two things. You know, one of them helped them to understand not just the fact that there are some people that are less satisfied or feel less included than others, but to help them understand exactly what is happening, what are the experiences, the very specific day to day experiences that happen in the workplace that cause them to be less satisfied, that cause them to be less included or feel less included, cause them to have less of a sense of belonging. And then I also was able to argue in a way very similar to what you said. I can basically show how if you have groups of people in your organization that are less satisfied than other groups. And we can show through our data that what we measure as inclusion. And I can come back and explain how we do that. But what we measure as inclusion is very, very highly correlated to self-reported satisfaction. So it's all of the factors that ultimately make you feel in the morning, like either you just don't want to get out of bed and you would rather, you know, stay home or conversely, make you skip out of bed because you're so excited about going to work.   Paolo Gaudiano: But so anyway, so what I, what I was able to do is to show how those factors of the level of satisfaction impacts the bottom line of a company through primarily through two pathways, if you will. You know, and you kind of hinted at them already. One of them is through productivity. If you have and and and productivity in its many facets, it could be absenteeism, but it could also be quality of work. It could be how many widgets you're creating at an hour, how many clients you're supporting in your sales department and things of that sort. But really, any level of productivity and those impact your top line. If you have people in your organization that are producing less than they could be, simply because they're not being treated the same way as another group, you're losing money. And then on top of that, if these people are less satisfied, we know that they will also depart. They're more likely to leave the company. Right. And and in fact, it's universally known that companies that have low levels of diversity take take any identity group. And you will find that if their level of diversity is low, that's always accompanied by lower levels of retention. And so you can actually put numbers on that. And we built a little calculator that's on our website where a company can enter the size of their workforce, they can enter their top line revenues, they can enter a couple of other very simple aspects of their business. And we can do a ballpark estimation of how much money they're losing today invisibly, simply because of the fact that they're treating some or they're allowing the experiences of some people in their organization to be less than the experience of other people.   Paolo Gaudiano: And I want to just ask people to reflect about this for a moment. I think that one of the profound problems that I've had with the way that Dei has been pitched, and I think that one of the reasons for the backlash is that you get these somewhat vague promises of improvements, if only you become more diverse, and then you find that becoming diverse is incredibly difficult, and you don't see any, any financial direct financial impacts, and you get people that get pissed off about it. And now all of a sudden, you have more people in your company that are dissatisfied, and that unfortunately creates a lot of problems. Whereas the way that we look at it is to say, you are losing money right now, you're being inefficient and you're doing it by not applying the same practices, policies and processes to all of your employees. And so we're not asking you to sprinkle again this magic diversity dust and things will get better. We're saying we're going to help you spot where you're losing money. It's like we're going to help you find those drafty windows and that open front door and maybe that furnace that is not burning very efficiently. And we will help you to save money doing something that you already know how to do. And that is much, much.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Let me ask. So is is the most obvious financial driver of not being inclusive? Is is it turnover? Is it the cost of recruiting, recruiting, retraining, bringing on I would say inefficiencies of that.   Paolo Gaudiano: Yeah. There's so in our calculations we see that depending on the type of company and on the type of of workers, etc., the loss of productivity and the loss of, of retention are fairly even. You know, if you're losing a, you know, according to Gallup and other sources, if you're losing a entry level worker, it may cost you anywhere between 3 to 6 months of their salary to rehire them and retrain them. If you lose a senior executive, it could be a year and a half or two worth of the salary. So. So there is a bit of a it's not an even formula. But you know, on the other hand, in terms of productivity and productivity too, because in some organizations the level of productivity of an employee and again, it depends on the type of organization, the type of employee, etc. in some cases it's very directly tied to revenue. So if you're talking about a company that has large sales force, for example, well, if you have 20% of your sales force that is producing 20% less, that would be 4% lower revenue. If my math is right, 22.2 times two you're losing 4% of your revenues, right? So so in some cases it's one, in some cases it's the other. And there's actually other factors too. We did a project for a an organization in cybersecurity. They're a called the Women in Cybersecurity or ISIS.   Paolo Gaudiano: And we did a study in which we basically hypothesized or not hypothesized, but we know, for example, that cybersecurity incidents very often depend on human error. So we built another version of the calculator where we kind of estimate the increased probability of a cybersecurity breach as a result of the fact that some of your people are less satisfied. And we did it by looking at research that shows that, yes, in fact, a lot of problems arise from, you know, you got caught by a phishing scam because you were tired, or maybe you're a member of the cybersecurity team and somebody sent you an alert that there was a breach, but you were kind of cranky or tired, or you got home early and all of a sudden what could have been stopped very quickly becomes a major security breach that cost millions of dollars. And so virtually everything that an organization that an employee does in an organization can have an impact on the productivity of the organization. And satisfaction plays into almost everything that we do at work. Now, we think that productivity kind of as an umbrella term and retention are the two biggest ones, and we can put numbers on them that are very easy to verify. And the other ones, it kind of depends on the organization.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So that makes me think of quiet quitting and some experiences I had when I when I was placed in a leadership position in an organization that had gone through a long period of chaos financial stresses and strains and kind of the, the, the, the lethargy, I would say, of people who had been battered about within the organization doing, doing, doing the least, doing the minimum. So you know, that clear clearly a lot of dissatisfaction. Absolutely. With, with with the workplace, which resulted in you know, yeah, the opposite of spirited, active mutual support. Yeah.   Paolo Gaudiano: And and, you know, this is also another thing that, I mean, there are so many complexities that I think that people tend to sweep under the rug or overlook, you know, satisfaction. Satisfaction is is a Complex result of the combination of things that happen in the workplace, but also personal things. So if we're having problems with your marriage or your relationship, or you have a bad commute to get to work, you know all of those things might impact you. And then, of course, once you get to the workplace, if your manager is a jerk or if your reports are jerk to their manager or or if you don't have the resources that you need because you know their software does not have accessibility or, you know, whatever the case may be, all of those things contribute to your satisfaction. And, you know, people talk about, oh, you know, I'm less satisfied because I don't feel like I belong or I'm satisfied. I'm less satisfied because my company does not do meaningful work. But but what I try to tell people is that those are like elements of satisfaction. And what I really try to emphasize to people is that at the end of the day, why do you. I don't it's not very useful to do what companies do, which is to ask people about their level of satisfaction or their level of inclusion or the level of belonging, because you're again, you're you're asking about the thermostat.   Paolo Gaudiano: You want to know why do you not feel included. What are the very specific things that happen to you at work that make you feel excluded? What are the specific things that happen to you at work that interfere with your ability to do your work, to get promoted, to get compensated? And so one of the keys that we sort of the moments that we had is that inclusion itself is kind of invisible, right? I mean, we don't we don't experience inclusion. We tend to experience we tend to notice exclusion. It's a little bit like health. We tend we're less likely to notice that we are healthy, but we're more likely to notice that we are unhealthy. And so when we realize that, we thought, well, look, how do doctors treat people? Imagine you went to a doctor and they just said, on a scale of 1 to 10, how healthy do you feel? Right? Well, when we ask people on a scale of 1 to 10, how satisfied do you feel? That's that's exactly what we're doing. Or even better, one of my favorite ones, you know, a companies that ask about, you know, how would you rate the level of inclusivity of our culture? That's like going to a doctor that says, how would you rate the way that our that our hospital treats your patients, our patient or patients and then try to heal you based on that.   Paolo Gaudiano: It's like it doesn't work that way. Instead, you know what a doctor will do is they they want to understand, first of all, what kind of disease do you have? They want to understand sort of the symptoms, you know, is it something is it a vascular problem? Is it a muscular problem? Is it is it a whatever, you know, a psychological problem, whatever the case might be. And then they want to ask about so they want to know kind of the clusters of symptoms that you have. And then they want to know what are the causes. So if you go in and you say my arm hurts, they might say, well, did you bump it? Did you happen to it? You know, if your stomach hurts, did you eat something weird? Right. So what we recognize is that when, you know, when we think about the way that people live their day to day, we want to find out two things. We want to find out what are.   Paolo Gaudiano: So we ask them for specific experiences. And we have a platform where this is done in a completely psychologically safe environment. We don't know who they are. They're going on an online platform that is completely anonymous. We ask them if they want to optionally to share some basic demographic and work related information, but they can skip that. And then we say, tell us stories of specific things that happen to you in the workplace that interfered with your ability to succeed. And we're very careful. We don't want to load it by saying things that made you feel excluded, because different people may feel excluded by something that somebody else may not feel excluded by. So it's more things like, you know, you know, my manager has now postponed our next performance review by three months. Well, if you do that and you hear that a lot of people complain about that, and then you find that it's it happens to 60% of all women, but only 20% of the men, or it happens to 80% of people with disabilities, but it only happens to 10% of the people who do not identify as having disabilities, disabilities. Then you know that there is a lack of inclusion on the part of the organization. So I think of it as.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So, so exclusion being the opposite of inclusion. So you're you're asking for people to give stories examples, instances of why they have, why they personally have felt excluded. And that's qualitative research. So is is the feeling or the experiences of exclusion. Is that the key dynamic that you're exploring?   Paolo Gaudiano: Actually no. No. And I didn't explain myself very well. So we're very careful. We do not ask about the feeling of exclusion. And in fact, we don't ask to measure feelings or inclusion at all. We we're using to explain the idea. But what we talk about is the following. We say the inclusion that we care about is the inclusion from the point of view of the organization in the following sense. If you are allowing things to happen to people, they influence their workplace experiences differently because of their identity traits that have nothing to do with how they work. Then we're saying the organization is not inclusive, okay, the level of individuals, we just want to know. Tell us about things that interfered with your work. Right. So the qualitative aspect And as I said, if you if something is like I took my laptop to the IT department and it took them four weeks to fix it, that's not exclusion. But if you find that this company is systematically taking longer to fix the laptops of black people than white people, then it is a form of.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes.   Paolo Gaudiano: You're the company, right? And so so the qualitative is that is the is the description. But then what we do is to go back to the medical analogy. We ask them for two bits of data. Actually three technically, but two primary ones. One of them is we say we have a list of what we call eight categories of experiences. And there are things like work life balance, compensation and benefits, career advancement recognition for your work. And so we asked them to identify which category most closely fits their experience. And then we also ask for the sources. And the sources in a typical company would be a policy or your leadership, your management, your peers, your reports, maybe your clients and other external entities. And then we also asked him about whether, hey, was this a one off incident or is this something that happens on a recurring basis? And the first two bits are the most important ones, because what we do is that as we collect data from several people in a company, we find the data immediately tells us, okay, this company has a big problem with respect, or this company has a big problem with compensation and benefits. And then we can look at.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Can you can you please restate the two, the two bits, the two most important bits.   Paolo Gaudiano: So let's say for example, we see in many companies a kind of experience that seems to be cited very often, especially by people who are not members of the majority, is what we call respect. And we're very specific about saying respect is literally either when somebody insults you or attacks you, or says negative things about you or makes an insensitive remark. Let's say somebody that makes a joke about people with disabilities, like, you know, a president of the United States accusing the, you know, the pilots or the air traffic controllers at DCA to have a disability, right? I mean, that would be an example of a of a clear lack of respect. And we find that unfortunately that's a category that in many, many, many companies especially we find in technology companies tends to be a problematic area. And then another area in some organizations, we find that compensation and benefits could be problematic. But in other compensation, in other places, we find that maybe career advancement could be a problem or recognition for your efforts could be a problem. And so the data tells you where to look. Like, where are you losing the most money? If I find that 40% of the people in my company complain about lack of respect and that has an impact on their satisfaction, then I want to then read. We read the comments. We don't provide the raw data to the clients because we want to preserve psychological safety. But we'll read the qualitative data, the descriptions, and kind of look and say, well, what is the biggest problem? And we find, oh, look, you know, there is a It's apparent that a lot of people, they go into meetings and they start talking about sports, and then they make bad jokes about people, and they never let some of the people grab the microphone and speak up.   Paolo Gaudiano: And if that's if that's the case, you can say, okay, well, here's what you can do. You can instate some policies that are going to essentially watch what happens in meetings and ensure that that better behaviors are are followed. You know, so and so the combination of the quantitative which tells you where to look, and then the qualitative which tells you what exactly are the problems that people are experiencing, give you much, much better data. And it gives you and it gives you an opportunity to focus on problems instead of focusing on identity buckets, which is a key key to the backlash. You know, we can drill down by identity, but we don't need to. And what we've always found is that the biggest problems will always impact people who come from, quote unquote, diverse backgrounds or non-majority backgrounds more than they impact the majority. So if you find a problem with the way the meetings are organized and run and you fix it, you're going to benefit a lot of people in the company. But you will particularly benefit women, people with disabilities, LGBT members of the LGBTQIA+ community, and so on and so forth. And so we kind of flipped that on its head and say, let's bucket the problems. Let's use the data to figure out what the problems are. Let's use the qualitative data to tell you what you need to fix. And then when you're doing that, you're not saying, oh, I'm going to do this for people with disabilities or for black people or for Hispanics or Latinos. I am fixing a big problem with a fair degree of confidence that it will have a disproportionate impact on the people that I was inadvertently excluding the most.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So let me let me talk about that. Inadvertently excluded for a second. So when you when you hear terms like dismantle institutional racism. Yes. Or eliminate institutional institutional barriers to disability inclusion. So these institutions were created and built and evolved and formed by people, and historically, certain groups had more power and influence in our society than others, disproportionately. And they're they're the groups of people that design these institutions, built these institutions, evolve these institutions. So I guess there's a difference between unconscious and conscious bias. But does that figure into your thinking? How how were these companies formed? What what's their history? Who who made these decisions that brought us to the point where we have these policies and practices and these, these, these behaviors that are either either reinforced or discouraged in an organization. Yeah, by the culture.   Paolo Gaudiano: Yeah. So so I want to be and this is, you know, my thinking about the individual level versus the kind of system level. And I notice in what you said, you do something that everybody does, which is that we mix and match in level things and company level things. And I think that that's one of the biggest problems that we have. Right? So   Dr. Kirk Adams: When say, say, say that I'm here to learn from you.   Paolo Gaudiano: So no, no, no, I appreciate it. So so.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So the mixing and matching.   Paolo Gaudiano: So the mixing.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And matching.   Paolo Gaudiano: So when we talk about, you know, you were talking about company, you know you started off by talking about people with power that create company, you know, in their thing. And then you talk about systemic, you know, company wide systemic discrimination. And then you talk about unconscious biases, which typically refer to individual behaviors or individual.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.   Paolo Gaudiano: And here's the thing. There are sometimes and by the way, I'm not at all an apologist. There are many situations in which the biases are not at all unconscious. In fact, I think those are the more dangerous ones. But there is a very big difference between what happens to an organization versus how an individual behaves. And very often in an organization, the things that happen are not necessarily because somebody decides to do something mean so. And what I tell people is the following. If I build a house for myself and let's say I have an opportunity to create a new home for me, I'm going to build a home that is going to be comfortable for me. Now, I'm not going to sit there and think about, like, every possible visitor that I might have in the next 20 years. And what about the people that might buy the house? After I pass away? I'm going to build a house that is comfortable for me. That doesn't mean that I'm being exclusive about it, but I may do some things where someone who is blind, or someone who has a mobility issue, or whatever the case might be, they may have a very difficult time in my house. Now, the problem that a lot of people don't realize and this is, you know, I talked about this idea of inclusion being invisible. I, I extend that analogy a little bit, and I hope you'll see where I'm going with this.   Paolo Gaudiano: Yeah. If you are a very healthy individual, you tend not to know anything about diseases. If you don't have a disability. Like one of the things that makes disability so difficult for so many people to wrap their heads around is that for those of us who do not have a permanent disability, it's incredibly difficult to understand what they are. We don't know the symptoms. We don't know what the disease. Sometimes I don't even know the names of some of the some of the health issues. And so what does that tell you? Well, it tells you that people who are healthy tend to not know what the disease is all about. They may not know how severe the symptoms are, and they surely are not qualified to heal people. Now inclusion works the same way. Okay. The people that are most included are the ones that are least aware of what exclusion means. They do not understand the severity of the symptoms, and they sure as hell are not qualified to fix the problems. But but whereas health can impact anyone in an organization who are the most included people, well, it's the typically white, often white male, cisgender, heterosexual men, you know, people with no disabilities who therefore are the ones that are the least able to see exclusion. They're the least able to understand the severity of it, and they're the least qualified to fix it. And the problem is that those people are making the decisions for everybody.   Paolo Gaudiano: And I can tell you that I've spoken to a lot of leaders who look like me, who are white, male, cisgender, etc. who would love to do the right thing, but they just don't know how. They don't have the data that tells them, you know, they hear complaints from people. But just because you hear complaints from people, it's very, very difficult to sort of think, oh, well, this must be a really serious problem. Maybe it's not a serious problem. Maybe it's just the person that is being whiny about it, right? Maybe it's the squeaky wheel problem. And so part of the mission of what I am trying to do is to give all leaders the visibility that they need so that they can actually make the right choices so they can say, hey, you know what? I've I've built a house that was designed for me. But as a result of being blind to the problems that I'm creating, it's costing me money. I'm making my house unwelcome, unwelcoming to a bunch of people, and I'm going to give them the data to understand who are the people that are being impacted and what can they do about it. And to me, this is, you know, when I hear people saying, oh, you know, the backlash is because white supremacy is trying to hold on to its power. We create these artificial concepts. But honestly, there are some people that I would describe as white supremacists who are clearly doing evil things.   Paolo Gaudiano: I happen to think that they're a tiny minority, but they're very good at manipulating the masses. But the large majority of the people that I know, and I deal with a lot of people who look like me, as I said, you know, they're not trying to be they're not trying to grab on to power. They're not trying to do anything evil. They're not trying to do anything differently than anybody else is doing. But it's just that by virtue of their their blindness, the lack of data and not being aware of the impact of what they're doing, they're just they don't know what to do. So so it's a very, very again, you know, I'm trying to avoid that confrontational like, you know, people talk about systemic racism or systemic biases. Here's a problem that I have with that. You hear a lot of times it's a circular definition okay. I was impacted because of systemic systemic disparities. Well, what was systemic disparity? Well, look at the number of people like me. There was fewer of them. Therefore there are systemic disparities. That proves that there is something, you know, you we create these definitions of these macroscopic, these emergent behaviors, and treat them as if they were something tangible that is actually, you know, like what is systemic racism? Is it like a bird that's sitting on a perch waiting for a person of color to go by? So what I try to do is I try to build kind of the causal links that go from, okay, this person is at work today, and she was insulted by her manager in a way that was completely inappropriate.   Paolo Gaudiano: Problem one. Problem two the company did not have a policy, did not have a process for the woman to report that problem. Or maybe they did not have a policy to manage it effectively. Problem three she was frustrated, didn't go to work for a couple of days, and when it was time for promotion, the manager gave her low marks because of the fact that she was not at work that one day. Right. So I need to understand what are all the pieces. And, you know, it might have been that maybe the manager was not a jerk. Maybe he was just in a bad mood himself that day because something happened at home, right? But whatever the case may be, it's the combination of the little day to day activities coupled with the lack of proper processes, policies and systems in the organization that eventually get amplified. And they lead to these massive disparities that we see. And so that's what I'm trying to and trying to kind of deconstruct that and understand the root causes, the root elements rather than trying to, you know, pointing fingers and talking about high level things like systemic biases.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. So earlier you said something, a couple things either die or inclusion is hard or difficult. I believe the comment you made and then the other is it's hard for company A to envision how they can implement what company B has done because of different circumstances. So it sounds like your approach is to look at each organization, a company. What whatever organization you're looking at as an individual, unique set of dynamics. And to really look at experience at people's at real people's real experiences.   Paolo Gaudiano: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And in some cases, we've worked with industry sectors. I mentioned cybersecurity earlier. We did essentially what we call a state of inclusion benchmark for the field of cybersecurity, where we had altogether about 1000 people that participated and shared data. And we were able to kind of do a mapping of kind of the state of inclusion of that particular field. But but the most valuable and that has some value. But but what's particularly valuable was the fact that then each company has its own data and can figure out what they are doing. And by the way, I think, Jeremy, I don't know if you were trying to ask a question or not. I I saw you come off mute for a second there, but.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Okay. Lots to unpack here. And obviously we don't have the time to get into it, so clearly I've already sent you a thing on LinkedIn. But I'm intrigued by your approach. There is a guy, and I will make the connection for you, if you wish. That publishes something called zip code Stories. And I really think he did such a great job of kind of taking it away from systematic racism. But talking about where do you come from and what does that impact? So I'm going to use myself as an example here. So I come from a very small town in Ohio, and when I was growing up, I had to depend on people to get places as a blind person and had all these, you know, challenges that were probably not things I would have faced had I lived in a city. Right. I could have grown up a little bit more independently, but my parents also told me that in order to get the life that I wanted and to be as independent as I wanted, I was going to have to be a smart guy. So when I applied to colleges, I was accepted at Cornell and I was accepted at Case Western, and I was also accepted at Bowling Green State University.   Jeremy Grandstaff: And I have to tell you, hello. Up until about four weeks ago, I always thought I'd chose Bowling Green because that's where I really wanted to be. But as I look back on it and have done a lot of work on me and choices that I've made throughout my life, I also discovered that the reason I chose Bowling Green was because I was afraid that the people at Case Western and the people at Cornell We're going to have way more money than I ever had, and I wasn't going to survive there. And I was more concerned about not being able to survive around people who had money than I should have been. Right. And so one of the things that I want to and again, I want to talk more about this, this is not me telling you you're wrong. Right. Because I'm not saying that I love your model and I want to learn more about it. But one of the things that I want to be very careful about is that we have to acknowledge that there are systematic challenges in the way things happen that do drive performance, experience and expectation. And I'll carry that just with another example.   Jeremy Grandstaff: I have been in a role where I was told that the expectation of me was that I was going to have to learn how to work for no money or the expectation of me was as a blind person. I would never ever be to do able to do the same job as a sighted person. And that was told to me by business owners who felt that there was no way I'd ever push back on them. And I have to be on with you that in some cases I didn't push back on them because I'm so poor and I grew up that way, that I was afraid that pushing back against these people who had money would put me in a worse position. That's a systematic thing. And so I just want to and obviously we can talk more about this. Right. But I just what what made me want to weigh in is systematic racism does exist. We don't have to call it systematic racism, but we do need to talk about systematic challenges that we have. That drive people to maybe not go after things like somebody who came up in the world with millions of dollars in their trust fund account.   Paolo Gaudiano: Yeah, no. And look, you're I completely agree with you and I, and I always, always remind myself, and I, and I like to usually talk about the fact that my privilege prevents me from seeing things that others would see. You know, I do not have I do not know what it's like to be, you know, a lifelong blind person. I do not know what it's like to be black in America. I do not know a lot of things that that, you know, the kind of experiences people have. So I always try to be humble about that. But I also use that as a power in the following sense. It gives me the flexibility to try to look at things from a somewhat detached standpoint, and to try to think about it in a way that is not influenced by my personal experiences, either in a positive or a negative way, and that allows me sometimes to think in a what may seem like a cold and calculated way, and it is a cold and calculated way about what can I do? What can I contribute that will have the greatest impact for the greatest number of people? And one thing that I that's similar to what I said before about fixing focusing on the problems first rather than focusing on identity first. The idea of creating an environment where every single person feels welcome, or where every single person has the ability to contribute to their to their best, scares the living daylights out of leaders because of two reasons.   Paolo Gaudiano: One of them is because it's just a monumental amount of work, and you never know when somebody is going to be dissatisfied about something. And the second thing is because is because ultimately you you run the risk of upsetting, you know, you do something for one group of people. You might end up upsetting a different group of people. What I try to do is I try to say, look, I can show you as a leader the fact that there are a lot of things that you could be doing better, but there are some of them that are particularly negatively impacting your company in a financial way. And what I believe is that if I can convince those people to make the right choices and fix at least some of the bigger problems, a they will have a positive impact on a lot of people, which is already a heck of a lot better than things are today. But b it's going to engender a different way to think about the workplace that will encourage more companies to become more welcoming to more people, and that will create kind of more suction through the economy, and it will create even more interest in expanding the kinds of problems that they're fixing so that they can cover more and more and more members of the population. But so it's kind of backwards, right? So instead of focusing on the symptom, which is look at all these people that are having problems, let's try to find out one by one what problems that we can fix it.   Paolo Gaudiano: I am flipping that upside down and saying, let's find out what are the best practices that we can adopt. What are the things that we can do that will start to take big chunks out of this problem? And then let's work on the more and more and more chunks so that we start with the biggest possible positive impact, you know, and it may be that it's not there's going to be some segment of the population that will not be positively impacted at all. And that may happen. But ultimately, as a leader, if you're demanding that I have to absolutely fix everything for everyone, it's a non-starter. You're basically making it such a daunting problem for people that it scares them. And I think a lot of people have been scared, you know? And I have to say, I read a lot of books on Dei, and I get so frustrated, so frustrated when I open the book. And the first paragraph is like, imagine you're standing in front of a dark forest and it looks like it's it's going to be really daunting and scary. But on the other side of the forest, there's a green patch and like, really, you know, Oh, you know, die is not a sprint.   Paolo Gaudiano: It's a marathon. And by the way, after you've killed yourself trying to improve, die in this one little aspect of your company, now you got to repeat it for every identity group. And you have to do intersectionality, and you have to do it for every department. It's like, if you're a CEO, you're like, what the hell? You give up, right? It's a marketing problem. You know, I go to people and say, look, there's this one big thing. You're wasting your energy. Your your utility bills are 30% higher than they should be. And I can fix them just by changing one subscription or one utility company that you have. Yes or no. It's like, oh, okay. So you see the point, you know? Yeah, I have the luxury. I have the incredible privilege of being able to think about things from that perspective because of the fact that it does not impact me. It does not it's not something that that, you know, I don't come at home feeling frustrated every single day of my life because of my skin color or because of my disability or because of my sexual orientation and things like that. So it's an incredible privilege, and I try to take full advantage of it by figuring out what is it that really matters to people like me, and how can I put it in a way that is aligning their interests with my interests?   Dr. Kirk Adams: So a couple of things just popped to mind. And we're coming to time. This time is flying by. But I of 27, 28 years ago, when I was earning a master's in not for profit leadership, I for my, my capstone project, I, I wrote a book called Beyond Race and Gender, and it was about it was about kind of the early stages of Dei and doing kind of root cause analysis and things. And there was one story about a dysfunctional engineering department, and the author had gone in and worked with the group, and it turned out that it was located in Alabama, and all the engineers had gone to University of Alabama, and they hired someone who'd gone to Auburn. So there was all these. They were all white males, but there was all this tension because of this alma mater. They were becoming dysfunctional and less than productive. So when you say you look at the big chunks, that that seems like a small chunk. I don't think we need to have a probably a big focus on alma mater and sports loyalties in companies. But when you look at the companies and industry clusters you've worked with, kind of what are there, are there common big chunks that you identify? Is it around gender? Is it around age? Is it around race? What are the big chunks?   Paolo Gaudiano: So so at the at the highest level, there was an interesting something that we found was very interesting when we as I said, we collect data that voluntarily people can share. And we actually get very high response rates. And companies inevitably want to like, you know, what's the problem? What are having this problem with women or with Hispanics or with disabilities. And so we sometimes find that, okay, well, we don't have enough data to tell you about 20 different races and ethnicities. But what if we just compare the overall level of inclusion or exclusion as we measure it for white people versus everybody else, for people with no disabilities versus anyone that has a visible or invisible disability for people who identify as male. So in other words, we say, what if you're not a member of the majority against a particular identity trait, and that is some benefits of doing it that way? Well, it turns out that what we found is that the the ratio between the majority and non member of the majority is always most pronounced for two traits. And those are gender and disability okay. So and we thought initially so race what we found is some organizations race is an indicator. In other ones it's not. Also there is a confounding factor that in the last several years a lot of white people are complaining about Dei. And so that shows up in our data. And so we see in fact, in a couple of companies recently, we've seen a reversal where the level of exclusion for white men is higher than it is, for which I'm going to refrain from making snide comments about that. But but let's just say that the complaints.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I admire your restraint.   Paolo Gaudiano: Let's just say that some of the complaints that we read, I would just like to find out who they are. Just go and kind of like, set them straight. But leaving that aside. Gotcha. So, so a universal finding disability and gender are always, always, always, always in every company that we've measured they're always there's always a big. And when I'm talking a big difference like an overall exclusion score that might be 1.5 x 2.1 x, meaning that when we when we calculate the scores, the exclusion score for people with disabilities is two times higher than it is for people without disabilities. And then when you look at and then when you look at specific categories like, you know, work life balance, etc., some of them are enormous differences. Like we see women with recognition and respect always, always an enormous problem. And so I would say that's the biggest thing that we found. And then beyond that, I'll tell you the other thing that we found that is almost a universal finding. A lot of the things that create problems in companies are stupid things that would be really easy to fix. You know, you don't need to hire McKinsey and spend millions of dollars to do a, you know, pulse surveys and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.   Paolo Gaudiano: And then nothing happens. You know, these are things like a lot of managers are doing very, very casual performance reviews, and that's allowing biases to creep in. Or the way that we do interviews for recruiting processes is creating biases in stupid ways, or people are forgetting to invite other people to meetings, and that's causing big problems. Stuff like that. You look at it that it's happening 20 times. You say, okay, fix it. It's very easy. Tell all the managers they have to have a spreadsheet of everybody that should be in a meeting, and you're going to actually measure the performance based on that. And so that's really that was another finding that really kind of blew my mind was that yeah. You know there are a lot of really simple things that we're doing that are impacting a lot of different people, including members of the majority, because, you know, maybe it's also the the introverted white guy who in other in every other way, is a perfect member of the majority, fully privileged. And yet they may benefit from a better process, from running meetings and organizing meetings. And so those, I think are the two macro like at the high level, those are the things that really, really kind of caught our attention.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Super interesting. So how can people work with you? I will, I will say anyone who's listening to this sign up for the Aleria newsletter. Thank you. Fabulous. I like the silver linings and golden nuggets when we can find them. I like that section a lot.   Paolo Gaudiano: And by the way, I have to thank you because you very kindly and politely pointed out to us that we had broken the system that was doing the captioning, the alt text on the images inside the newsletter. And I'm very grateful that you pointed that out. And now we fix that.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And I see I saw that you fixed that. Thank you for acknowledging me.   Paolo Gaudiano: Yeah. No, I appreciated that, I appreciated that. So so I would say in general if people come to our website aléria. So, you know, it's a I'm sure there will be links. I know and I know you always. Yeah. But aléria tech, tech. That's a great way to get Ahold of us. I'm on LinkedIn. Luckily, there are not a lot of Paolo Galliano's in the world. And so if you look me up on LinkedIn, I'm very easy to find. I see, I see, Jeremy, I saw you shaking your hand as if. Yeah, you just found me. You found me on LinkedIn already? Yeah. And I mean, other than that, also, I encourage people. I give a talk. It was a TEDx talk in November of 2023, in Harlem. And and the TEDx organization liked it enough that they called me up and said, hey, can we rebrand it as a full TEDx talk and put it on our website? And of course, I was like, yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes, please. Yeah.   Paolo Gaudiano: So if you go to actually to TED.com and you look up my name, you'll find there's, there's a talk that I gave that sort of touches on, you know, it's, it's a 12 minute talk. So it gives some of the key ideas of the measure inclusion. And And the last thing I'm going to say is that you're going to need to invite me back, because we didn't talk about meritocracy at all. And that's my next.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh. That's true.   Paolo Gaudiano: You'll have to invite me back some other time, and we'll talk about meritocracy.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Let's let's do that. I would love to do that. Let's let's get that on the calendar. Wonderful. You have a book.   Paolo Gaudiano: I have a.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Book.   Paolo Gaudiano: Titled Measuring Inclusion, Higher Profits, and Happier People without Guesswork or Backlash. And for those that happen to listen to this episode before mid September of 2025 we have a promotion right now. My book is now one. Recently won a third award. And to celebrate that, my publisher knocked the price of the Kindle version down to $0.99. And one thing that I always tell people is on Amazon, you can buy, let's say, 100 copies on Kindle, and there's a button that says buy for others, and you will get 100 individual redemption codes that never expire. So what I tell people is go out and buy a bunch of copies and give them away as holiday gifts, or to people that think they might be interested in this. It's a phenomenal opportunity to get a book for only $0.99, and then make you look smart when you give them to your friends and they read it and hopefully they'll like it too.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Perfect. And for me, you can find [email protected]. I'm also on LinkedIn Kirk Adams and join me sometime before this year ends for Paulo Gaudiano part two how to Create True Meritocracies. And thanks for being here everybody. Have a wonderful day.   Paolo Gaudiano: Thank you.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW Academy.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Rich and Brittany Palmer — Managing Partners of Adaptation Ventures — to trace the personal and entrepreneurial paths that led them to launch an angel, member-based fund focused on disability innovation. Brittany, a bilateral below-elbow amputee, shares how early prosthetics, supportive parents, and careers spanning environmental law and global consulting shaped her founder lens; when she built Beyonder, a live virtual-tour startup for people with limited mobility, she ran into investors who mislabeled the opportunity as "niche," a pattern she later saw across disability-tech. Rich recounts a winding route from RPI to Wall Street to startups, a life-threatening brain aneurysm at 28, and a reset at Babson that culminated in building and exiting an AI-for-philanthropy company — followed by leading one of the nation's largest angel groups and testifying to Congress about early-stage capital. Together they explain how Adaptation Ventures aims to be "first money in" at pre-seed and seed, typically leading ~$250K checks and targeting four investments per quarter, with a low barrier to member participation and optional fee-free, carry-free co-invest alongside the fund. Rejecting concessionary mindsets, they argue that disability markets deliver venture-scale returns — citing outsized economic multipliers for both angel dollars and assistive technology — and emphasize bottoms-up validation, universal design's "curb-cut effect," and aging demographics as powerful demand signals. They preview their first member meeting in mid-October/early November 2025 and invite founders and prospective members to connect via adaptation.vc, while Adams underscores how inclusive products expand total addressable markets and how entrepreneurship can be a natural fit for disabled innovators.   TRANSCRIPT:   Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am Doctor Kirk Adams, and I am doctor by way of my PhD in Leadership and change through Antioch University, I did an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. So I interviewed a lot of cool people working for a lot of cool companies. And I'm a blind person myself. My retinas detached when I was five years old in kindergarten. I became totally blind very quickly, and I went to a school for blind kids, Oregon State School for second third grade. Learn my blindness skills and my confidence and how to love myself as a blind kid. And then a long and winding road. Fourth grade on. I was the only blind student in any school I attended through my several graduate schools and the doctorate. So have had the experience of being a frustrated job seeker with a disability and a successful blind employee in corporate America and leader of a couple non-profits. I'm the immediate past president of the American Foundation for the blind. So I've had the privilege of employing it and and helping create career paths for for hundreds of blind and deaf blind people. I set up a consulting practice about three years ago, and I'm talking to you from my office in Seattle. I work with companies to help them accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in their workforce.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I work with several nonprofits to help them scale past the founder stage. And kind of unexpectedly, I have been contacted by a pretty big handful of startups in the disability tech space. Innovative people who are striving to use technology to make the world a more inclusive place for people with disabilities, and to create more opportunities for us to thrive whatever way we choose. And in doing so, I've been learning a lot about startups and incubators and angel investors and venture capital. My my fundraising history is is long and and positive, but it's primarily been in philanthropy. So raising money for non non-profit causes. So I, I'm privileged to have met Rich Palmer. We had one conversation and I'm just meeting Brittany Palmer today for the first time. Rich and Rich and Brittany are co-founders of Adaptation Ventures. And I have invited them to join us today to talk about their their journey. Hopefully you'll go way, way back. And I would love to hear I want to hear the the love story, too, of of how you met and what brought you to create adaptation ventures and and what, what your strategically what what your initiative is focused on now. So so Brittany and Rich, I'm handing you the talking stick.   Brittany Palmer: Thank you so much, Doctor Kirk. We appreciate it. And we will give. Well, we will go way, way back. And we'll also talk a little bit about how we met to. So thank you first for inviting us on the podcast. We are so appreciative to be here and talking about our story and adaptation ventures. I I'll start at the, at the beginning of sort of my story. So I am a from birth, a bilateral below elbow amputee. So I'm missing both arms from a little bit below the elbow down. And so I at the time, a long time ago I was one of the youngest children to ever be fitted with my bioelectric prosthetics. And so those are prosthetics that actually move. A hand open and closed. And they've gotten a lot better today. But I wore prosthetics a little bit when I was younger, but mostly adapted to the world around me. Without them, and eventually stopped wearing them altogether. I had really amazing parents who pushed me to be as independent as my potential to be was, which is pretty much completely independent. And I'm super grateful for that. So things that people still ask me today, how do you write? How do you type? How do you drive? I do all of that without assistance. And And so again, like, it's just been a world of adapting and making things work for me.   Brittany Palmer: And I know a lot of other people with disabilities, you know, the world is not necessarily built for them, and we're always adapting to our situations. And so I grew up you know, doing sports, and I had an interest in science and went to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. For my undergrad in biology and management and and then went to law school. I really loved environmental law. And I got my J.D. and certificate from Pace Law School. And I started my career doing a clerkship at the Mine Safety and Health Review Commission in D.C. and and worked at the EPA as well. And then did international consulting as a principal and in-house counsel at a, at a firm in Boston. And and I really developed a love for, for travel there. I got to meet and work with tons of people all over the world and really enjoyed it. But really wanted to develop something and work in sort of the disability space. And Rich will sort of share his story in connecting and connecting those dots. But Rich and I met at the at the end of my law school time and and you know, and he moved down to Washington, D.C.. When I had my clerkship there. And excuse me.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I said he followed you.   Brittany Palmer: He did.   Brittany Palmer: He work was really It was tough to come.   Brittany Palmer: By when I.   Brittany Palmer: Graduated.   Brittany Palmer: And I was very lucky to have that job.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Good.   Brittany Palmer: And so I I started a company called Beyonder. That was live and interactive virtual tours by guides around the world.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, wow.   Brittany Palmer: For, you know, people that had limited mobility or other conditions that prevented or inhibited them from travel. And, you know, at the time, there was a lot of companies focused around wheelchair accessibility and travel and which is great. It's definitely super needed. But I really wanted to create something that everyone could enjoy. To, to the maximum extent possible with, with the virtual tours. And so when I was raising money for that, I thought, this market is huge. I'm, you know, hopefully this is something that a lot of people will want to invest in. And when I started talking to venture capitalists, I got responses like, oh, this is a niche market or this market's not big enough, or we don't believe this market is big enough. Even though I provided them with all the statistics and everything like that.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Right.   Brittany Palmer: And gave examples and it was angel investors who really you know, understood my, my company and what I wanted to do. I understood that seniors were a part of that, and a lot of them have limited mobility as well. And, and so when I continued on my journey and advising companies and talking to founders, I heard the same thing from them. Venture capitalists, like, they don't understand the space. They think it's niche. They you know, they just really don't understand the opportunity. They don't know how to evaluate my company. And and they really needed first money in. And there's some other VCs in this space, which is wonderful. But they focus on, like, particular areas in the disability community or our later stage investors. Yeah, right. So we really wanted to to put something together that could be that first money and, and and sort of jumpstart these companies that were doing amazing things. And so before I talk more about adaptation, I'll let Rich kind of tell his story.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And I'd like to just emphasize a couple things before. Before. Yeah. Go back to Rich. So you touched on the fact that living with a disability gives us ample opportunity to face challenges and overcome challenges and be creative and be problem solvers and be innovative. Yeah. So I'm really finding that with disabled entrepreneurs that entrepreneurship can be a great fit. A great, great occasion for a person to thrive economically is to be an entrepreneur, be self-employed, be a business owner. Because we can we can create the fit between ourselves and the workplace in ways that are somewhat more challenging. If you're if you're trying to create that good, good fit in the, you know, for instance, in a large corporate environment and a lot of innovation, a lot of creativity in the disabled entrepreneurs I've been getting to know. So I wanted to note that I also wanted to note the size of the market. And you mentioned seniors. So one of the enlightening conversations I have with people is the fact that I'm blind. So I tend to look at look at things through the blindness inclusion lens. But you know, if you, if you graph the percentage of people who are legally totally blind against the age, as age increases, that percentage increases. Pretty dramatic actually. So, you know, over 60% of people who are legally blind are over 60 years old. And if you look at 16% of people over 65 are visually impaired. 23% of people over 80 are visually impaired. And we're aging more and more. There's going to be millions and millions of people reaching those later stages in life who will acquire their disabilities, and they are consumers who have grown up being used to getting what they want, how they want, when they want. And you know, those companies that provide products and services that can make that frictionless for people with disabilities are going to be in a great position. So I just wanted to emphasize that. And Rich. Yes.   Rich Palmer: Thank you. Doctor Adams, thank you for everybody listening. And I'm going to steal one of your phrases. And, you know, Brittany is my better 7/8. So you're not getting the just the better half here. But we are. We are married. Same last name. And I'll start my journey. Sort of picking up where Brit left off or where Brit started. Excuse me. So we both went to RPI, and I was there about two years older than her, and so we should have met much earlier than we did. But I was in a fraternity, and it was the the nice fraternities and nice, nice folks. Nice guys. So, yeah, nobody, you know, we we didn't have the craziest parties or anything like that. So Brit and I should have met earlier, but I think we met at the appropriate time. We'll say that, I think. And so I went from there to to Wall Street. So basically I was a computer science and economics major. First career down doing portfolio analytics for a fintech company. It was a kind of a startup within S&P. Like the S&P 500. And then within that they were owned by McGraw-Hill.   Rich Palmer: So the reason I bring that up is knowing sort of that entrepreneurial ethos and what it's like when you are, you know, properly capitalized was really important for that company to succeed. And I got to learn that at a really, really early age. But if you can't tell from the intonation here, I am not your typical Wall Street kind of guy. Very much on the the other side of things. So I spent about four years there before I decided I wanted to do a startup. And, you know, one of the things we talk about when we talk about startup creation is like, you know, work on things, you know, with with a strong network around you and all the resources that you could possibly possibly need. So instead of starting a company in New York City, maybe in finance with people I knew, I moved to Berkeley, California to start an online homemade food company. Okay. And that, you know, I started with a computer science friend of mine. So two technical co-founders trying to make effectively Etsy for food.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Were you doing Brittany together at this point?   Rich Palmer: Brittany and I were not together yet. Okay, so this is she.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So she did her startup beyond renewed years.   Rich Palmer: Yeah. So Brenda did her startup after I did mine, which I'll. I'll share this other one. She she thought I was crazy for being a founder and then, you know, drank the Kool-Aid a little. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, we bootstrapped this company, and it wasn't, you know, the right use case or the right founders, and it was bootstrapped. So ultimately I went, you know, it didn't succeed, and happily so, because I learned a lot about how, you know, to put the right resources together to solve the right problems, to talk, to talk to clients and, and users and without, you know, ran out of money, spent a couple of months in Denver, Colorado, trying to find myself and then came back to New York City to the founder of the company I worked for was starting a new company, and the primary goal of that company was to take on LinkedIn. So they raised about $120 million to take tons of public data sources and say, you know, Doctor Adams, if you're, you know, trying to meet Brittany and you know me, how could you navigate that pathway using real data? You know, on LinkedIn you can say whatever you want, right? And so how do you trust the data source to to go through that. What happened with that company is that it is a use case. You know, it's not a narrow use case. It's kind of very, very open ended.   Rich Palmer: And they ultimately ended up selling the company years and years later for $7 million. So from 120 million raised to a $7 million exit. So the reason I bring that up is if you have, you know, too much capital, but not the right use case or focus, it also kind of, you know, was a lesson learned for me personally. And that's where Britt and my stories collide. So I was running product for this company. It was based in New York City. Brittany and I had just met in March of 2012. Brett I think so, yeah. And she gets this job in a terrible job market for environmental attorneys and had to make this decision of whether you know, this isn't going to work out. I stay in New York or do, like you said, you have Florida, D.C., and I am so happy. We made this decision. The story will get a little intense for a second, and then I promise you, I promise to bring it back. So, about a year into being a pioneer and working remote down in DC. Yeah. I was on a stationary bike in my apartment complex, and, you know, trying to stay in shape and all that kind of stuff and had, of all things, a brain aneurysm, hemorrhage. And I was 28 at the time. So all this life lived before, you know, that and a lot of exposure to a bunch of different business models and entrepreneurship and everything.   Rich Palmer: Came screaming to a, you know, needing emergency open brain surgery. Having to learn how to walk and talk, read and write, think all over again. Wow. And you can imagine, you know, I've met a lot of people in that situation since. And a lot of them. Take a minute to you know, reflect on the second chance of life and really appreciate and slow down a little. Maybe things are too stressful. Before I had an existential need to start a company from this. Okay. And started studying for the, you know, the GMAT with births help. Like one tenth my normal speed. Like ended up, you know, applying to schools and mostly focused on entrepreneurship because I wanted a new network, I wanted a fresh start and ended up applying to and interviewing at Babson College, which has been number one in entrepreneurship for about 27 years maybe 28. Now we're in a new year and I roll up in. Britt's driving. I can't drive at this point. Tons of medication, but we have to narrow it, find the window to, like, you know, of being focused. And I come up with a cane and a shaved head and and somehow they were like, all right, cool. This guy's got something to offer. And ended up giving me a full ride to the school, which is awesome.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great. Well, where is that? Where is Babson?   Rich Palmer: Babson is up in the northeast in Wellesley, Massachusetts. So 20 minutes or so outside of Boston. Okay. And that's their focus. So every single year, accounting class, your marketing class, your HR, everything is focused on entrepreneurship. It's it's an incredible, incredible organization.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Sounds great.   Rich Palmer: And, you know, basically, I'll speed up the story from here. From there. I met a met a fundraiser at Babson. So somebody in charge of getting philanthropic dollars in. So you and I should have a conversation. Conversation about that. And it's really hard to do, as you know, and you have small teams with a massive goals in mind and be massive groups of people that they need to reach out to and figure out, you know, who do I. Who do I talk to? What do I say? Especially if I'm trying to fundraise. It could be a new engagement or a, you know, someone who's going to give their, you know, their a bequest or any of this kind of stuff. It's some of them are heavy duty conversations. And I was not yet applied to this industry. So how do you leverage technology and prediction to do things at scale? And that's what we ended up doing. So I ended up creating the first AI company focused on philanthropy, on social good. And we grew like hotcakes because this was, you know, a a really pressing need for every nonprofit and sold to a private equity firm in November of 2019. So if you know your your recent history, something crazy happened a few months later and ended up running that, you know, for another 18 months or so before stepping down to become a full time angel investor. And then I led the third largest angel investor group in the US and joined the association that basically represents all angel investors. So it's the Angel Capital Association doing public policy work primarily.   Rich Palmer: So the you know, I tell the story about AI and social good, you know, a young guy with an aneurysm that really resonates on both sides of the aisle. And to talk to congresspeople and policymakers about how to get more capital to sort of overlooked founders was it sort of piqued when I got to do that in front of To Congress doing testimony on on providing early stage capital to to founders. So long story short, the the whole sort of, you know, parallel paths that Britt and I had. You'd think with the technical, non-technical co-founder combination with Brits resilience and law background that VCs and traditional capital would would be, you know, knocking down our doors. Yeah, I had to raise from 43 individual angel investors because nobody had ever made raise money in the non-profit tech space before. And I can't remember if Brit mentioned, but I think she had 80 people on her cap table. Oh, and this is not, you know, until a couple months ago when we launched Adaptation Ventures. This this was one of like the hardest things for us to do is talk to founders focused on the disability market and realize that, oh, wow, they're in the same spot we were in a decade ago, and nobody kind of filled in that gap of the first capital and focused on an awesome market with critical needs. So that's why we exist. And I know we've been holding the mic for forever, so I'm passing. That was great. Right back to you.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So Adaptation ventures, I assume, emerged from these various strands you just talked about and the realization that founders and disability tech were in expecting the same set of dynamics that you had both experienced in your startup lives. So did it. Did it, did it crystallize pretty quickly that you should start a angel fund? Focus on disability tech? Did you analyze different structures and different approaches, or did you? Did you settle on the adaptation ventures as is fairly quickly or not.   Brittany Palmer: We. We had an idea.   Brittany Palmer: Of what we wanted to create, and we knew the general direction. But it took about, you know, I'd say 6 to 9 months of talking to a lot of people. To define our end game with adaptation. And we really found that people in this space that understood the space, wanted to be involved, that you know, high, high fun, like, traditional funds require sometimes $100,000 or more to, to join, which makes it inaccessible for a lot of people. And that people felt strongly about this space and wanted to be involved. And given our experience with angels. Rich and I felt that the best path for adaptation was to be an angel member based fund. And when you look at this space, also talking of just impact and we're we feel very strongly about, you know, venture level returns being provided in this space and and that we don't need to be concessionary in, in order to invest in this space and be successful.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Can I, I heard the word concessionary, but I don't know. I don't know what you mean by that. So if you could explain, that would be helpful.   Brittany Palmer: So most people look at that as, like, their they think that in order to do good in the disability and accessible spaces, that you have to be a non-profit and accept donations and that like money can't be made in this, in this area and therefore that it's not ripe for venture capital. And we very much we vehemently disagree with that. And there's a lot of there's a lot of people out there that that feel the same way. And it is, you know, companies currently in the market are are proving it. And so we felt like it was important to create this, this group of members who some have experience investing, some don't. The the bar for entry is, is much lower being an angel group. And And so we've just met some really incredible people. And and our goal, of course, based on, you know, our past experiences is to lead, precede rounds of funding and, and also invest in seed rounds. So the earliest stages of of these companies is, is what we're looking to invest in.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So I've been for the last three years accumulating a list of investors, investment vehicles, funds that have some interest in the disability tech space. It's not a very long list. Most of them are a couple that are very disability disability focus. But their their later stage investors. There are some funds that I guess kind of look at social impact writ large and would include disability considerations and what, they look for, but again later stage. I've looked at a number of crowdfunding platforms and been involved in a couple of crowdfunding campaigns that were not not successful to very modestly successful. I've encountered a small handful of angel investors who are interested in the disability space, primarily because they were already investing, and then they had a child with a disability. Now they've become very interested. But I haven't encountered anyone who's doing what you're doing. Which is super exciting to me when I, when I read about adaptation ventures and reached out to you both on LinkedIn, and Rich was kind enough to get on a call and, and talk to me about what you're doing, but eager to learn more. The what? My my Understanding. And Please, please correct me if I'm wrong is you're you're you're you're fairly close to the beginning of building the initiative. You're looking for people who want to pool funds with others, to invest in technologies that would accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in various aspects of society. You have a a manageable minimum for many people. So you have a barrier to entry into the fund is just relatively low to other things I've seen. And you're you're starting to look at companies. I think I read that you're going to look at funding for companies a quarter initially. I have that right at I think I wrote down 250,000 levels target. So if you if you could correct any of that, that's wrong. And perhaps just talk a little bit about the, structure and how how you strategically strategically what are the what are the 2 or 3 things that you're really focused on in the short mid-term term in order to grow your venture?   Rich Palmer: For sure. Doctor Adams, the let me I'll start broad and then we'll go a little bit narrow. So there's, there's two there's two stats that like probably at the core of why we're doing this and the core of why, I'll tell you who the types of people involved and then how it works for sure. Yeah. One is on the angel investment side. So I've mentioned this sort of congressional testimony. And one of the stats that I, I thought it was crazy until there was an economic impact study that did this. And I was we met the people who put it together. And it's that for every dollar invested by an angel investor, there's a 21 x economic return. And what that means is, you know, yes, investors and the founders and the early employees, you know, make make money on an exit and all that kind of stuff. But the, you know, the management team, people start buying houses. They are able to be out in the community, they're able to raise families, they pay more in taxes. It's this crazy, crazy leverage that's just on, you know, the it's like revenue side of of society, right. And then the other statistic that intersects with it is for every dollar, a user, someone human spends on assistive technology, it's A9X economic return.   Rich Palmer: So the opportunity for that person to, if it was acquired disability to get back to some semblance of what they want to do, you get out. You can be mobile, you can get back into the workforce, you can raise children, you can do whatever you want. And it's these two ridiculous levers that sort of make up the fulcrum points of what what we're doing. And to your point, yeah, you there's people scattered all around, and actually, 1 in 5 US households reaches accreditation levels. Where you can be an accredited investor over a certain threshold. So it's it's crazy that these numbers are that large. And we're finding the folks that usually come to us hadn't thought of themselves as investors before. It's you know, executives who have raised a child with a disability is people with disabilities themselves. It's Paralympic athletes. It's book authors. It's folks who like, you have a big, you know, sort of the community trust you, you have an influence and sort of that megaphone to share new ideas and new ways to improve things as well as, you know, my background is in Angel and. Traditional angel investors, family offices, traditional capital, and everybody's kind of coming under because they've never had this opportunity before. Yeah. There's some elements of age tech in what we do.   Rich Palmer: There's some elements of deep tech in what we see. There's some elements of underrepresented founders in what we see, but there's never been a carve out for literally the world's largest market, which you can join at any time. And you will join at some time, if you like. Live long enough. Right. And so you have this, this huge pool of stuff. And so the way we sort of structure it with, with all these folks, it's new, new people and, you know, experienced investors coming together is as a fund. There's yeah, we are able to basically pool capital to tell startups when they come to pitch us. So startups apply. We do diligence on sort of a certain number of, of the top ones that apply. And for are going to come in every quarter. So 16 potential opportunities per year, likely more. But as those those companies come in, this group of people are listening to the pitches, they are able to sort of provide feedback to the startups, vote together on whether we move forward with diligence or not. They're able to join diligence teams. So let's say you have a specific background in marketing or sales or tech or an affinity with, you know, lived experience with the disability. So you can represent the user. Any element usually everybody who gets involved in this has some awesome superpower.   Rich Palmer: So we really welcome that, that sort of element to it. And then we deploy. And I like that you said the 250 K because that matters, right? In some angel groups it's individual members making the decision on whether to invest or not. So you end up back where Brett and I were with 43 individual people, or C individual people or, you know, or you mentioned crowdfunding and I'm not knocking on different models, but with crowdfunding, there could be so many people that no one person's like sort of completely bought in. And so you don't have this big coalition of people who put their capital behind you. You as a founder know how much you're getting in at a minimum. And I keep saying it that way because I want to add one more thing to that. And here's the raw reality, right? Most startups, if you're going to have a 10 to 20 x exit, take 7 to 9 years to achieve that exit. So it's really not about the capital only. It's about how do you help these companies through that time, through a pivot, through hiring and firing and competition and all that kind of stuff, the human mentor championing them, being a shoulder for them to lean on.   Rich Palmer: And what's really unique about our model, which we love, is, you know, I mentioned all these different kind of personas of people that are joining us. Yeah. It's not lost on us that you usually, you know, the fund provides a diversified view of the disability market as a whole. One of the things we're very intentional about and people people call us crazy for this, but I don't know, we very much like it is let's say there's a company that comes in and you're really focused on mobility startups, for example. That's that's the like that's your that's your jam. And there's a awesome mobility company comes in to 250 K goes into the company, and there's a concept called co-investment where the fund invests and you kind of co invest and you put more money in. Which in our case co-investment has no fees and no carry. We take no cut. We want that money to go straight into the things that our members care about and straight to the hands of the of the founders, which is which is quite unique. In our world, usually the fund likes to hold all the capital in one spot, but we wanted people to both have a diversified view as well as be able to double down on the things they really liked.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So, just so unclear if if a person is a member of Adaptation Ventures and Adaptation Ventures chooses to invest in a startup, that individual could also invest as themselves, as an individual. Is that what you're saying?   Rich Palmer: Yeah. Okay, cool. Our hope is that in general that for anybody who knows the details of this, if the larger the check, the more likely they'll just go on to the cap table of the company. And then there's the concept of of spvs, where if a bunch of people want to roll in small amounts just to kind of make it easier to manage would likely go through an SPV, but still there's, you know, no, no fees, no care on our side.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. And SPV is what.   Rich Palmer: A special purpose vehicle. It's a way to roll up smaller checks. Just honestly make it easier to manage okay. For both the founder and whoever's managing it.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. I'm learning. I'm taking notes.   Rich Palmer: No, you're doing great. You're doing great.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So you're at the stage where you have some members. You're obviously wanting more as members. The right term.   Brittany Palmer: Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. So you're wanting more members. You're looking for companies to evaluate. Evaluate. So so strategic objectives. The most important things you, Rich and Brittany need to accomplish here over the next six, nine months. Would that be members and companies? Are there other things that you're.   Brittany Palmer: Yeah, those are the two big companies. Yeah, the.   Brittany Palmer: Two big things. We're hoping to have our first meeting. Planning for mid-October, early November this year, which we're super excited about. And Rich and I will also be at a couple of conferences this fall. And you know, people can, but we have a LinkedIn page where we talk about what we're doing adaptation ventures, and then we of course, our website provides a lot more information on group, which is adaptation.vc.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And what is the commitment that members need to make?   Brittany Palmer: So we can't discuss that openly. But it is the size of a smaller angel check for For a certain period of time.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay, but people can reach out to you and talk. Talk to you?   Brittany Palmer: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. And the best way is through the adaptation. Avc. Is that the best way for people to get it?   Brittany Palmer: Yeah. If you go to our approach.   Brittany Palmer: To learn more on the website, there's a member interest form that you can fill out. And it provides a form that provides some more information and gives us some more information about you when you submit your, your form. And people can also send emails to members at adaptation via email [email protected].   Dr. Kirk Adams: So, you know, again, I'm, I'm on a steep part of my learning curve. But as I talk to founders of disability tech companies that have reached out to me most mostly questions about the market size and how to connect across the government, corporate, non-profit and community sectors. I find a couple of things. I founders, I don't think oftentimes think big enough. We already talked about the aging population and the relation to disability and how big that market is. And then the other thing is the curb cut effect. You know, when when things are made to designed universally and made accessible for people with disabilities, that it benefits everybody. And, you know, we talk about the first example that always comes to mind is the talking book because I, you know, I led American Foundation for the blind. And they in the 1930s, Helen Keller and Eleanor Roosevelt, you know, pioneered the talking book and got Library of Congress to fund talking books. And, you know, the the 33 and a third rpm long playing record album was created specifically to record books for people who are blind. And there was a nice New York Times article in 1947 interviewing the president, Robert Irwin, the president of AFP, who said, you know, there's the the the market for the talking books is very limited because there's no reason a person who could read print would ever want to listen to a book.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So we, we, we know what's happened there. And then, of course, the curb cut cuts in our, you know, our, our friends with mobility impairments who occupied the federal building in San Francisco and protested at the Capitol and got got curb cut legislation implemented, and now something less than a half a percent of people using curb cuts are wheelchair users. It's cyclists and skateboarders and parents with strollers and people with grocery carts and etc. and then, you know, closed captioning. The legislation was passed in 2010, requiring a certain amount of television program to have closed captioning, and now more than half of the people who use closed captioning do not have a hearing impairment. That was created, spearheaded by the deaf community. So, you know, I don't know you know, really how to quantify that for people. But it is an interesting conversation that I've had multiple times, and I, I know you, you you were all fully aware of all of this, but I'm, I'm just kind of kind of coming to realize.   Brittany Palmer: Yeah.   Brittany Palmer: No, I think the more people that are aware of how inclusive design and like, human centered design really benefits everyone, not just people with disabilities, I think the better off we all are, because the more people keep that in mind as they design things, whether it's for a large company or a small company or their own company. It's it's a super important aspect of design. And it truly goes to show that if you do that the impacts can be really great and far reaching.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, absolutely. And we see. Yeah.   Rich Palmer: So yeah. Doctor Adams, if you don't mind, is probably about 80% of what we've seen so far. And what we would likely see would be founders directly targeting the disability market. As it stands, solving a use case like you were mentioning that our goal is to help them scale past the founders stage and think way bigger, but they do some thinking bigger. The the market numbers are staggering and they're growing. You know, like you said on the aging population, 10,000 people a day are turning 65 or older. The number of pick a element of the disability world. That's tens of millions of people both in the US and abroad. And what we're kind of seeing. So that's on one side. And founders, you know, this is a call to action for founders. Those numbers are great and they look nice on a pitch deck. But it's the bottoms up numbers that make investors years perk up. Like, how do you know that your product solves the problem for the people you've actually come in direct contact with? So rather than just a top down, which we know, what we don't know from you is like, how did you prove that your technology is like going to be helpful for somebody? And that intersects with the other 20% of companies we're seeing. And I think we'll continue to see. Right. Brett is like they're startups not focused on this market. But if they did if they just took a five seconds, and usually it's not even a product change. It could be just like a marketing change. It opens up a massive eager. Deep pocketed, if I can say it that way.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Rich Palmer: Like, they're just like community and caregivers represent. I don't know the numbers. Now is like $18 trillion. It's like, what? Or I don't know what. It almost shocks us that we exist, to be honest. Like we're not doing adaptation because these numbers just makes so much sense to us. But yeah, probably 80% will be directly focused on the disability market. And then the other 20 will be the curb cut effect. Like in reverse. Like Like the number of companies we've talked to that we say, hey, have you thought about this for, you know, the deaf blind community, the deaf community, the blind community, the mobility, prosthetics, amputation and the the companies like, no, would they like that? And we're like.   Rich Palmer: Oh my gosh, why? Why do we have to tell you that?   Rich Palmer: But it feels really good to see companies like that deliver, so we'll be doing that as well.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's awesome. So I look forward to meeting you both next month and Washington DC at the Disability Innovation Forum. That'll be a great day and I really appreciate your time, and I look forward to having a conversation with you on the podcast in the future to check in on, check in on progress so people can reach you through your website adaptation BC or members at adaptation VC. If people want to reach me, my website is just Dr. Kirk Adams. So Doctor Kirk adams.com I'm on LinkedIn every day and it's Kirk Adams PhD on LinkedIn. So thank you Rich. Thank you Brittany, I learned a lot today and I am going to learn a lot more from both of you as time goes on, I'm sure, and just really appreciate your insights, your passion, Dedication and the disruptive dynamics of adaptation ventures. So it's a it's a need that has not been met yet, but you're doing it. Thank you so much.   Rich Palmer: Awesome. Thank you for having us.   Rich Palmer: Appreciate it. You bet.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And we'll see you next time on the podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. Thanks so much.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Adams.com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.    

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Meghan Connolly Haupt, founder of the New York - based nonprofit consultancy Inclusive Saratoga. Reuniting after their days in the Lighthouse for the Blind network, the pair trace Meghan's winding road from Carnegie Hall intern and Jesuit Volunteer Corps case manager on L.A.'s Skid Row to corporate-social-responsibility pioneer (she launched the CSRwire news service 23 years ago), craft-beer marketer, and now disability-inclusion entrepreneur. Launched in February 2025, Inclusive Saratoga helps hospitality venues, music halls, breweries, and museums turn accessibility into a competitive edge, offering everything from staff training and sensory kits to service-animal protocols — while an in-house line of "inclusive" apparel underwrites the mission.   Meghan credits her sense of "relentless forward progress" to two powerful forces: parents who modeled community service and a second daughter, Tatum, who survived a 24-week birth and now navigates multiple disabilities. Those experiences, she tells Adams, taught her that togetherness is the core of healthy societies and that businesses prosper when they welcome everyone through the door. The conversation brims with optimism—citing data that disability-inclusive companies outpace peers by 30 percent on the bottom line—and closes with a call for partners who want to warm up their workplaces for both customers and future employees with disabilities.   TRANSCRIPT:   Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello, everybody, and welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. And I am that Doctor Kirk Adams. I'm talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And I have a special guest here today. Meghan Connolly helped. And Meghan and I met several decades ago when she was involved in resource development fundraising at the San Francisco Lighthouse for the blind. I was working for the Seattle Lighthouse for the blind. I started working there because I was hired as the first development director. So we have that resource development background in common. Hi, Meghan.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Hi. How are you?   Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm great and so cool to reconnect. I'm so glad you reached out. And Meghan is the founder of Inclusive Saratoga at Saratoga in New York State. And I think Saratoga Springs, Saratoga, Saratoga Springs there, there's horse racing there. And I think potato chips were invented there. That's what.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I. Yes, yes that's true.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Springs.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: So if you go on jeopardy, if you go on jeopardy, that's going to be that's going to be your million dollar answer right there. Saratoga Springs and the home of the birthplace of of potato chips.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. I'll hope they ask that question. Well, here we are. For those who don't know me, I am the managing director of my consulting practice, which is called Innovative Impact, LLC, and I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind AFI, which was Helen Keller's organization. And prior to that, I held that those same roles, leadership roles at the Lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, which is a nonprofit social enterprise employing blind and deaf blind people in a variety of businesses, most notably aerospace manufacturing, making parts for all the Boeing Wing aircraft, which is a really cool thing to see 120 blind and deaf blind machinists making parts with very sophisticated computer numerically controlled equipment, but equipped with jaws and zoom text and braille display and all the assistive technologies we use. I am a blind person myself. I retinas detached when I was in kindergarten, and I went to school for blind children for first, second and third grade. Got got my blindness skills down rock solid and then sink, sink or swim into public school after that and was always the only blind student in my schooling from fourth grade through my through my doctoral program and after graduating from college, had the experiences that so many of us have with challenges to finding employment wound up in the securities industry, selling tax free municipal bonds over the phone for ten years, and then pivoted to the nonprofit sector.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And through a twisting, winding road became a resource development person and a certified fundraising executive and was hired by the lighthouse here and then Those Things unfurled was invited to join the board of the American Foundation for the blind and then given the opportunity to lead that organization, and in 2016 moved to New York City and then DC and back home during the pandemic, led AFB remotely for some time and then just decided rather than move back to the DC area wanted to stay in Seattle for family reasons, 2 to 2 of which our little grandchildren live about a mile away. So that that's our great joy. My wife Roz and I met in college. We'll be married 40 years next month.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: So congratulations.   Dr. Kirk Adams: A bit about me. Yeah, but I really want to talk about. Talk to you, Meghan, because I read your LinkedIn profile again this morning, and and and. Wow. Special events. Craft brewery. Craft brewing, which I'm very interested in personally. And fundraising, inclusion, disability advocacy. Just a very unique folio of experiences you have.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yes, that's a kind way to say it.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, but I love to hear about your. Yeah, I'd love to hear about your journey and how all of these various things came together and how you're getting them together.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Right.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. That's just fascinating to me because I, I don't often see I don't often see individuals or organizations that focus on marketing and, and campaigns and social media and festivals and associations with disability inclusion woven throughout. So I'd love to hear about it.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me to have this conversation with you today. There's not enough positive stories about inclusion, and that is really our focus at Inclusive Saratoga. You open the paper, you open social media, and there's plenty of stories that that really kind of make your heart sink about individuals with any, any number of disabilities who are excluded from participating in society. And our whole mission is sharing the positive stories of what is possible. We are founded on the belief that people are good, and the belief that togetherness is a core, core element of our humanity and and is truly the biggest indicator of a healthy society. And that's not just our core belief at inclusive Saratoga that is backed up by Unicef research. And so, yeah, I have a I have a unique A career path, but there is a common thread that runs through. From my very first, I'll say professional role at Carnegie Hall. Actually, as an intern at Fordham University all the way through to today. As the as the founder of a nonprofit that brings people together. And that thread is community. And I think that I think community is so. At the core of my being because of who my parents are. So my mother is a nonprofit executive director. She was my entire life.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Growing up where she was with Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, and then she was with the Epilepsy Association, and then she was with the Albany Medical College Alumni Association. My father is a business teacher and and a coach, a track coach. And I think I kind of got the best of both worlds through their career choices. And, you know, I didn't know this. I wasn't cognizant of this at at a young age of 21 where I set out on my career path. But but kind of looking back, I think that I had both of my parents as key influences for me. I knew at a young age that I had business acumen. I was the kid who didn't just have a lemonade stand. I had a lemonade franchise where I had the kids in the neighborhood working for me at doing their own lemonade stands, and we'd pool the the funds and I would pay them right. I was the entrepreneur and Girl Scout selling 311 boxes of Girl Scout cookies door to door at the time. Right. This is before social media, where kids put the videos on before the parents were selling in the offices. This was, you know, feet on the ground selling these boxes of cookies so I could get two free weeks of summer camp as an aid.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I always buy two boxes of Thin Mints. Ever given the opportunity?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Well, I will pass that along to to to the girls who do that now. That is far in my rearview mirror, but. So I always had this acumen, this business acumen. And and so at one point in my life, I was a case manager and a social worker, and it was amazing. It was rewarding, but I felt like there were there was a whole set of skills that I possessed that were dormant.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Can you can you can I I'm really I don't know why, but I feel really centered when I know where people are. So you're you're at Fordham, which is in New York. Yeah. When you ended up in San Francisco. So that's when we met. Now you're now you're in Saratoga Springs. So when you're doing your you're a case management. Where were you?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I was in Los Angeles. Because. Yes, because out of Fordham, I participated in a program similar to a one year domestic peace corps. It's called the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, still in existence. And I was stationed in Los Angeles, and I worked with homeless drug addicted, mentally ill adults in Skid Row. And that was an incredibly pivotal experience for me. I felt very, again, very proud of the work that I was doing, helping individuals. But I also felt a disconnect. And so I left that role and went to the admin side in my first development role with Proyecto Pastoral, which is a large nonprofit in East Los Angeles working with the Latino population. They're kind of known for their gang prevention programs under Father Greg Boyle, who became kind of a national celebrity in the at risk youth space. He's an incredible human being. So I worked in development there. When I left Los Angeles, honestly, at the age of 25, being totally burnt out, just feeling like I had seen the worst that our country had to offer and feeling a little little like I couldn't be very effective in creating change and really wanted to take a step back to figure out how I could participate to the greatest extent, how I can really help people. I knew that kind of on an individual level, wasn't it? The admin level was getting there, but I still felt like I hadn't figured it out and I and I was burned, I was bitter, I was callous, so I checked out and I went and surfed in Costa Rica for almost a year.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Which was which was a wonderful break. And I'm very privileged to have had that opportunity to to take that kind of pause. And what it did for me is it realized how badly I did want to get back and work. I wasn't so great at being idle and laying on the beach. So I came back and I actually went to Santa Cruz, California, and I worked for the United Way of Santa Cruz County, and I was a track coach in Santa Cruz as well. And there I met a woman athlete. I was a track athlete growing up. Yeah, I'm a highly competitive person, which serves me when I'm playing sports. But sometimes in life it's not appropriate to be as competitive as I am. But but that competitiveness, I think, kind of helps helps me stay focused on the social impact work that I do because I believe it's possible. And I believe if we work hard enough, we are going to reach our goal. But now, as a wiser, older, more mature professional, I'm much more committed to partnerships and collaboration. So that wasn't the case in my early 20s, but it is now.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Fortunately, I hear you.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: So at the.   Dr. Kirk Adams: United Way. The United Way resource development.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I was yeah, yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And for those who don't know, that's that's a kind way to say fundraising.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. And I met some really great people doing that work and really contribute to the community again still searching for my role. And, and I met a woman who told me about a graduate program in southern Vermont at a, at in Brattleboro, Vermont, very small town, very small school, 100 100 students in their graduate program. But upon hearing about I went home that night and I did my application, I applied, and a few months later I was driving cross-country to go to graduate school at the World Learning Institute, which is the original institution that trained Peace Corps volunteers to go abroad. And and there I. I study I was studying corporate social responsibility and sustainability because at the time there were no green MBA programs. Sustainability wasn't really in the lexicon. Again, really trying to marry my business acumen with my social values and and searching for a way. So, you know, I met with Ben and Jerry's and my thesis was on how do you define corporate ethics? And I looked at I had, you know, part of it was I had two lip balms and I said, this one is a traditional petroleum based lip balm, but 100% of the proceeds fund cleft palate surgeries in Africa. And this one is made with all natural, local, organic ingredients. But there is no philanthropic component. And which one is more socially responsible? And, you know, that was that was the core of what I was studying. And felt like I was starting to figure it out. And when I say it really myself is what I'm referring to. I founded a newswire service called CSR wire which is the first of its kind. Are you familiar with it?   Dr. Kirk Adams: I sure.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Am.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. So I founded that 23 years ago. Right.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I was shocked to say that.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. So so the point of that newswire is to share positive stories is to help businesses push out their positive practices. Because, again, the, the the typical traditional media is a lot about negativity. And at the time, businesses didn't have many avenues to share what what good things were happening. And I truly believe that on the continuum of, you know, good and bad, there's no there's no company that's good and there's no company that's bad. I feel like 99.9% of companies are clumped somewhere in the middle with shades of grey. Every company is doing something that is noteworthy. That's good for the community, that's good for employees or what have you. And every company has its challenges. But so I did that for three years and and, and it was awesome. But Vermont was feeling a little claustrophobic for me, being an hour and a half from the closest airport and my love of travel. So I moved to San Francisco, and that is at the time at which the story picks up with you involved at the Lighthouse for the blind. And that was my first opportunity to work in the disabled community. And as part of our training, probably not part of your training. But part of my training was that we go through a full day blindfolded, and that is through the office, navigating community services, navigating a restaurant experience, and ordering lunch. And I know, I know, that can be somewhat controversial that that that tool. But it was very effective for me.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Personally to.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Talk about that was for.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh, please.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So disability simulations are sometimes used in order to intentionally give people without an impairment the experience of navigating the built social and digital environments with a simulated impairment in case of visual impairment. Now Doctor Ariel Silverman, who is now the director of research at American Foundation for the blind, she did her doctoral work at the University of Washington looking at those disability simulation experiences and her conclusion to to cut, you know, cut to the end of her dissertation is that they can be very counterproductive if they're not done correctly, because they can't can give a person without an impairment the impression that living, for instance, without sight can be a terrifying, frustrating, angering chaotic experience. But you said it was part of your training. But if used as part of a more comprehensive disability awareness training, it can be very useful. So I just want to highlight that, yeah, experiences like dining in the dark where you take people who haven't had any background or training and you throw a blindfold on them and tell them to eat dinner, they can walk away from that thinking, you know, being being blind could be the worst thing ever, right? So we don't want that, right?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: We don't want to paint such a negative impression. And also my understanding of the, you know, the simulation tool is that it really doesn't touch upon the culture. Right, to, to to have a blindfold on at a restaurant. The waitstaff is going to treat me exactly the same as they would with when I take that blindfold off. But that's that's a very, very different cultural experience than somebody who actually does live with it with an impairment. And so like you said, it was part of the training. And I think the way they did, it was very effective. And it also depends on the person. Right? For me personally, it was very helpful. Especially at the age that I was at at the time.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Did you.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Find the job and then moved to San Francisco or moved to San Francisco and then find a job?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I moved to San Francisco just because I needed a change. And friends and family and said, I think you'd you do really well in San Francisco. I think it's the right culture for you. And so I moved out there really on a whim. And unfortunately, I lived two blocks away from lighthouse for the blind. So it was a very easy commute.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: And And served me very, very well. I met my husband out in the Bay area. He was at Stanford. And he's he's an alumni of Stanford. And we decided to get married and and have children. And that is what was the impetus for us moving back to upstate New York, where I'm from. And, you know, to be closer to family again, that whole of community. Right? I didn't find a lot of community in general in my years out West. But the culture of upstate New York is one that that I find very, very comforting. And my family had lived here forever. My dad has has never lived anywhere but this area. And as a teacher, as a coach, had a very, very broad reach of and community. And one of my favorite things about living here. And I'll say it happens probably once, maybe twice a week, is I meet somebody who knew my dad. Oh, my gosh, you're Jim Connolly's daughter. Oh, he was my coach. Oh, he was my teacher. Oh, he was my neighbor. And that that sense of grounding and connectedness is so incredibly powerful for me personally. And, and my siblings don't have that. It doesn't happen to them. My my brothers in Seattle. But my sister is here locally and it never happens to her. And I have read that when these kind of coincidences happen, it's an indicator that the person is more present in life and really kind of seeking out those connections spiritually. That's what I've read. And maybe that's why it happens to me and not my sister. Maybe I just talk a lot more.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: My dad was a high school basketball coach for 40 years. So the town where I graduated from high school north of Seattle. If I. Whenever I go there, I run into players. And.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: And it.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Feels great.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Players and coaches and refs. Yeah, I knew him so I understand.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So so you you you have your first experience working around disability in the sense of wildness. Yeah. White House. Yeah. And from then on, it seems like it was baked into everything that you've done since then.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah, I did social impact marketing.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So how does that how does that happen? Because not everybody who has, you know, an initial experience with disability becomes a fierce advocate and ally. Such as yourself?   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I, like I said, I maybe just goes back to who my parents are. Were. And I knew at a young age that people were important. Are important. I knew at a young age I knew I needed to do something connecting people. I had originally gone to business born because I thought I was going to go into advertising. But my sophomore year of college, I was competitively selected to work with habitat for Humanity in Guatemala. And, you know, if you if you map your life, there are probably a handful of events that have happened that have completely earned the trajectory for you. And and working in Guatemala as an 18 year old was one of those key moments. Key events in my life. And so when I came back to campus after that trip, I went and met with my advisor and I said, okay, new plan. I don't want to go into advertising as I understood it to be at the time. I said, I have to I have to figure out how to use again business marketing. But in a more positive way. And so I added sociology as a double major, which was awesome. I absolutely I absolutely loved it. But this has been a journey. This has been decades in the making to get me where I'm at today. And one of the first posts that I wrote when I launched Inclusive Saratoga, which was just in February, was that I felt like it was all these different avenues or streams of my life, kind of converging into one raging river. Everything I had learned Learn from different careers and different people and different experiences. Kind of kind of coming into into focus at this at this moment in my life.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: And part we didn't talk about yet is when we did start having a family. I one daughter who just completely shocked me, shocked me unbelievably. I had no idea how much I would love being a parent and her parent in particular. I really I'm not that maternal kind of person. But I loved it so much and I said, I want her to have a sibling now. It had taken us five years and tens of thousands of dollars to conceive my older daughter, whose name is Porter. And it was it was a brutal five years. I called them the Lost Years because we really couldn't do anything. We couldn't move our lives forward at all until we knew if we were going to be parents. And and we were, and it was amazing. And I said to my husband. One day I said, I want to try one more time and he didn't think I was crazy. Which maybe means that he's crazy. Because it was. It was just like after what we had been through. He said, if you're willing to do it, so am I. So we tried one more time and conceived my second daughter, who's Tatum, and she was born at 24 weeks, so she was born 108 days prematurely. Yeah. That's how many days she spent in NICU. And so for the past 11 years, she's now just over 11. I have been in the disability space by virtue of being her parent. And she has physical as well as cognitive as well as speech disabilities. So she has she experiences a fairly large spectrum of challenges and navigating that with.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Her.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Has really, really. It's been it's been powerful for me. You know, again, it feels like everything I've done kind of has led up to where we're at. And and it was a year ago this week, actually, that I decided to focus on, you know, combining all my skills and energy and passions into really advocating for individuals with disabilities of any kind. And it took me about six months to flesh out what I, what I wanted that to look like. Did I want to be an LLC or a nonprofit? And what was going to be the focus? What was the real gap that I was trying to fill? And and it took a lot of searching and a lot of conversations. I connected with disability advocates all over the world who were kind enough and generous enough with their time to have frank conversations with me. And so the model of Inclusive Saratoga was based on a lot of my personal experience, but also a lot of research and and conversations with other people who face challenges in our society.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So what did you decide?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: So inclusive Saratoga is a nonprofit and and, and a lot of people were really surprised because this is February. Mine in February of 2025. And you can reflect back on what was happening politically at that time. A lot of people thought I perhaps was making a poor career choice by going into this, this field. But I, I remain very optimistic about 2025. And the reason I do is because my experience has shown me that when federal funds and federal programs are pulled back. Businesses and individuals step up. I've seen it time and time again, and I truly believe that on a very personal level, people want to make the right choices and people want to support each other, and that is what we are tapping into. And so inclusive. Saratoga, our model, is basically a consultancy where we work with businesses of all kinds. Hospitality businesses are really kind of a key vertical. But any business to help that business tap into the ROI of embracing disability inclusivity, that looks totally different for various types of businesses. And one organization, we worked with them on their parking. They were very unclear on the the laws and how to where to put handicap accessible parking and that kind of thing. Another we we do service animal training. Another we're looking at adding sensory station and sensory kits and another we're looking at staff training. So that the staff can be more prepared to better serve all their customers who have disabilities. We have worked in the brewery space, the craft beer space. You mentioned that early in our call. And my work in that industry was really rooted in the fact that breweries tend to be gathering places. They tend to be social hubs, and they tend to be very generous from a philanthropic standpoint of, you know, donating to community groups and yeah, and inviting nonprofits to have meetings there for free and that kind of thing. So that's why I had worked in that industry for, for a decade. And that industry is so, so perfectly.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Positioned to benefit from the work that we do at inclusive Saratoga to really welcome everybody into into the brewery, the brewery space. Yeah. So that's that's in a nutshell what what we do and because we are an, a traditional nonprofit, meaning we don't do direct service work. A lot of foundations are struggling with funding us because it's outside of their models. So so we have to be very innovative. We have to be creative. And one of the things we've done is launch a, an earned income stream of inclusive apparel. And so it's tees, tanks, hoodies that promote only positive messages and raise awareness. And 100% of the profits go to funding our consultancy.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Right. So I have to ask. Because my, my my passion, what I've devoted my professional and academic careers and energies to as employment with people with disabilities, and the fact that only 35% of us with significant disabilities are in the workforce, which leads to a lot of poverty and all the all the bad things that happen, poverty. So I have are you able to have conversations with any of the people you're serving as a consultant around inclusion of people with disabilities in their workforce?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah, that's a great question. And we do not do that work ourselves. And the reason the reason we don't is because there are organisations who are already doing that. And and I just met with one here locally the other day called Wildwood. Wildwood happens to be the fiscal intermediary intermediary for my daughter's Medicaid, so I was already familiar with them. Okay, but she's only 11, so I wasn't really familiar with their their job readiness or job placement program. But we had a meeting, and I was so pleasantly surprised at her reaction to what we're doing, because the way she viewed it was, she's like, you're warming. You're warming up these businesses. We're going to we're going to follow you in. You're going to talk about inclusivity on a larger scale. You're going to help them because we really focus on the customer service side of things. Yeah. And and she said, but but by virtue of doing that, they are automatically in better positions to employ individuals with disabilities. You're knocking down these barriers. You're warming up these businesses to the idea. So then we come in and we can hopefully, you know, form partnerships with them. So it looks like yeah, it looks like a really great relationship. And you know, and again, like what we're doing nobody was doing before. And I have two business degrees. I had never. Nobody had ever talked about disability or inclusivity or accessibility in any of my business classes. So when I knock on these businesses doors and I and I literally cold call or just show up they say this is the first time anyone has ever invited us to have this conversation. So the first time anyone has ever offered these services. And so, yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Focus is to help these businesses create welcome pleasant frictionless, barrier free customer experiences for their customers with disabilities. Is that.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: And and the reason that's our focus is because everybody should be together. Yeah. So I mentioned I have two daughters. They both ski. They ski at separate ski mountains. And that is that makes for a very long Saturday for me to go to different ski mountains because they have different programs. And though in my in my opinion, that should not be the case, my daughter should be able to ski together. They want to ski together, but one has the adaptive program and one doesn't. And so I believe that when individuals are together disability or not, everyone grows and learns. And then when I talk to businesses, though, there is a real business case for it. Accenture did a study that showed that businesses that embrace disability inclusivity see 30% higher net revenue. So while I'd like to. Yes. So I'd like to think that people, you know, do it because they, they believe in it. But if they're doing it because of the economics, that's fine too. So that's that's really what I'm tapping into, is working with music venues and museums and restaurants and and breweries so that so that everybody can, can go and participate fully and have maybe a different but a shared experience.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Well, you I think one of the first things out of your mouth was community was a unifying theme for, for you in your life. So it seems that all these various experiences have indeed, I think you said, combined to form a raging river. So it seems like your your head heading down, heading down the river. So creating a nonprofit, have you founded a nonprofit?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I hadn't founded one myself. But when I was doing the development work, I. I got into training other development professionals and helping them navigate the world of fundraising. So I at least had had that background. And to be completely honest, I didn't want to be a nonprofit. Yeah, I, I feel like I feel like in general, nonprofits tend to, you know, become beholden to the funders and not innovate enough and not not be assertive enough in addressing their key goals and objectives. And so I didn't want to be a nonprofit, but I ultimately made that decision because at least initially, I feel like it opens us up to more conversations, which is part of the goal.   Dr. Kirk Adams: You know, I've been in the nonprofit space a long, long time. So, you know, the the the board is so important. And I want to talk to you a little bit about that, but I, I disclaimer I love the nonprofit sector. I love non-profit organizations. I love people who volunteer to serve on boards of directors and boards of trustees for nonprofits. But the structure is inherently really difficult to move quickly. It's very hard to be nimble. Unless you really designed it to, to have that capacity. And that usually starts with how you design a board and who you have on your board. Because our process is people that people need buy in and they need to understand and they're volunteers. And you have structures and processes and subcommittees and recommendations by subcommittees to committees and quarterly board meetings. It's really hard. It's hard to move quickly unless you build that capacity in structurally. And I. I'm sure you're fully aware of that. I'm sure you're doing that.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I'm trying to. I was very deliberate about our founding board members. We are actively trying to recruit more board members, honestly, because there's so much opportunity. For what? What we're doing. I anyone who's willing to support us, I'm willing to, to kind of figure out a role for them. But but yeah, I am trying to be very, very deliberate and intentional about how we spend our time, how we spend our resources. What what we are working on. Again, there's there is so much need and opportunity that when something isn't clicking, I'm trying to move on. I'm trying to say, okay, you know what? There's that's not clicking at this time. So rather than keep pursuing it, and this is where I have to kind of suppress my competitive nature a little bit go after the things that are starting to percolate.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So every morning when I get ready for the day, I Right. Kind of a little vision statement for the day. And I write my mantra for today. For the day. This morning it was don't, don't. Chase was pretty much for today. So there's a there's enough opportunity out there that you don't need to chase. And you can Think about being magnetic and attracting opportunity to you. Right. Which I think you talked about a little bit. Talked about connecting with people who. You know, have a relationship with your father.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: And I will say to that point about the. Don't chase the number of people that I have met who have fed me positive energy. In the last six months is is probably more than the last six years prior to these six months. The people who are coming forward and who we're meeting and we've connected with or who volunteered some time or have donated, or who have even just stopped by to say hi at our booth at one of our local events. It's really so powerful and I am really grateful for it. It's something I didn't really think about going into as a byproduct of what we're doing. But but when we have events, you know, we're there to sell our merch again as a fundraiser and raise awareness. But people are coming to our booth, oftentimes kind of teary eyed, saying things to us like, you know, how can you be so positive right now? And, and it's amazing what you're trying to accomplish. And and I literally invite them into the booth. Come on in, come in the shade, come sit down, chat with us. And we've met incredible people. And I mean, even reconnecting with you. Kirk. This was a great opportunity for for us to to re-engage after two decades. And so that is my that is honestly my favorite part of my job is is the people that I've had the pleasure of either reconnecting with or connecting with for the first time in the last six months.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Just this morning, I was invited to to visit Camp Abilities, which is a camp. Yeah, you're familiar with it. For our listeners, Lauren Lieberman, for our listeners that don't know what it is. It here in Saratoga Springs, there's a college called Skidmore College, and that is where this camp takes place, is a camp for youth who are visually impaired or blind. And it's produced by the Lions Club of Saratoga Springs. They fund it, they organize it, and and I have a really nice relationship with the Lions Club as of the last handful of months. And they invited me to the camp today and went and met some of the campers and had some really great conversations. And you know, sometimes I say, I can't believe this is my job. I can't believe this is what I get to do, right? Because I feel so privileged to hear their stories and and to be able to share our own story. Which is you know, not all positive, right? We've been through a lot of trauma as a family. But it's so cathartic to to to share that and to connect with people.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I lived in Brooklyn and worked in Manhattan and took a train to Albany. That's my experience of New York. So   Meghan Connolly Haupt: You were close. You're about 40 minutes away in Albany.   Dr. Kirk Adams: How far away is Saratoga Springs from Stony Brook?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I don't know how far it is from Stony. Maybe two and a half. Maybe.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm not sure. Woman. Doctor Lauren Lieberman is a professor there, and she's like the leading expert on physical education for kids.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Okay.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Capabilities there. I see. So tell I we're coming. We'll need to do a part two to get the one year report on.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Oh, that'd be great. But if you can get my time, then I may be too busy.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Okay. That's right. All full schedule. Can you tell tell me just a little bit about the community. You mentioned hospitality, and you mentioned breweries and festivals and restaurants. So it. Is that a hospitality industry hub? Saratoga, Saratoga Springs, are there other industries? How many people? Just a little snapshot.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. So Saratoga Springs. I think the community of residents is about 28,000. It's a small city. It's a city. It's not a suburb. So it's so it is its own entity. But I think it's about 28,000 residents. However, we have the oldest sporting venue in the country here. Our other big claim to fame, beyond being the birthplace of the potato chip is the Saratoga racetrack.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Right.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: So we have, you know, it's a it's a booming, booming tourist town for several months out of the year. And in addition to that, we have Saratoga Performing Arts Center, which is in Saratoga Springs Spa State Park. And that music venue is 60 years old. And it's not a huge venue, I want to say 20, 25,000 attendees capacity, but get some really amazing acts and New York City Ballet, the orchestra, as well as partnership with Live Nation where they have, you know, modern rock pop stuff. But that, is here as well. So you've got the track. You've got stack. It is and, you know, especially during the summer with, with a lot of tourism and I'm on lots of different social media groups about tourism in the city. And I'm seeing more and more people coming to visit asking questions like, hey, I have mobility challenges. Can you give me a recommendation of a restaurant? Or, hey, we're going to go to Spac. Can somebody explain to me what we might expect when we get there? We're traveling with our disabled child or what have you, and I'm happy to pipe in and and then kind of gather that information and go to these entities and say, hey, we can we can do more. We have opportunity to better serve the community. And guess what? In doing so, you're going to see a higher net Net revenue. So I have a personal passion for the arts, and and it just, you know, it's just a logical.   Dr. Kirk Adams: My my my mind is racing now, Meghan, that I know what you're doing, so I, I have some resources I want to connect you with on some networks that are kindred spirits. Awesome. You're doing so.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Awesome. That's fantastic. I, I would love any introductions. Because you can keep going, right? I keep following the trail of breadcrumbs if.   Dr. Kirk Adams: You want people. If people want to get in touch with you and Yeah. Have conversation. Find out more about.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Absolutely. I would love to hear from any of your listeners.   Dr. Kirk Adams: How do they do that?   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. Inclusive saratoga.com. And my email address is Hello at Inclusive Saratoga. Com there's also a form field on on the website. And and we have Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and LinkedIn. You can find us on any one of those four platforms. Even something like a like or a follow really helps validate what we're doing and helps bring that conversation together. Kirk, I don't I don't know your opinion on this yet.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I'm hoping I will be going to your socials today.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Awesome. Well, we'll we'll share the socials to really connect this conversation, but I don't know your thoughts and would love to hear them on kind of the movement in general. You know, it's disability is such a huge term, right? There's so much that falls under that. But what I often feel like we do ourselves a disservice in, in the advocacy or in the movement of of infighting. Right. Like, no, we can't say disabled person. We have to say a person with a disability. And and I feel like that there's, there's a lot of need and again, opportunity to, to pull the conversation together and move forward as more of a united front. I know not everyone's going to have the same opinion. And you know I am not a disabled person I'm the parent of. So I have a different vantage point than you do than other people do. But I just feel like any way that we can help pull all these different groups and conversations together to be tighter, the better it will serve all of us.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I think that's right. I am very, very hopeful for the future. I've seen a lot of progress in the last 25 years. In the last ten years, things are accelerating as far as just normalizing conversations about disability and accommodations. And, you know, honestly, the Black Lives movement and the national dialogue about institutional barriers to oppressed groups really opened up and disrupted a lot of a lot of spaces around being able to talk about this kind of stuff. Of course there's there there's always pendulum, so there's pushback on that. It'll push back again. Things evolve. Of the or the arc of history been slowly, but it bends toward towards justice, to paraphrase Doctor King, but just the younger generation. I have nieces and nephews who are eight, ten, 12, 14 years old. They're just so inclusive. And they're thinking and they're talking. They have networks of people digitally they have kids with disabilities in their classrooms. They don't they don't bat an eye. You know, when I come in with my cane and my braille and you know, they have friends who are wheelchair users and friends use augmentative communication devices. And, I just think you know, 20, 20 years from now it's it's going to be. Yeah. Amazing. As far as the levels of inclusion and understanding and awareness and empathy, I feel really good about that.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: I agree with you. I had this moment recently where I. I was at the park. I had gone for a run and got in the car, put my seatbelt down and started driving home, and I realized that I couldn't remember putting my seatbelt on. It has become so habitual for for my generation. Whereas, you know, I grew up in the 70s, I grew up with a vinyl seat. I fell out of a moving car going 40 miles an hour when I was five years old. Right. Seatbelt. My generation had to learn that you wear a seatbelt. Right. Yeah, well, first they had to install them in the vehicles. But but here, you know, at my age, it's it's so habitual. I didn't even think about it. Right. So I'm halfway home. And I said, I don't even remember putting my seatbelt on, and I use that. It's not a perfect analogy, but I use it to think about. So that was, you know, 47 years ago, I fell out of a moving car because no one wore seatbelts. 47 years from now, what is inclusivity going to look like? I'm hopeful that the things that are a challenge that we're just putting into place now, 47 years from now, no one even thinks about, and they look back at this time and go, I can't believe you lived like that, I can't believe. You know, you didn't have these things, right? The way we look back on the 70s say, I can't believe you sat in the front seat with no seatbelt.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Or climbed back and forth between the seats at the station, like, oh, yeah.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Facing backwards.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I was at a conference in San Francisco and the presenter started out talking about societal change. This is how societies change. And he said 50 years ago there would have been an ashtray on each of these conference tables. Yeah, this room would have been filled with smoke.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So just think about that for a second. But I the time flew by. Meghan, I am so much looking forward to an update later on to see what progress you've made. How far you've gotten down the raging river? Yes. If people want to get in touch with me, my email is Kirk Adams, Kirk Adams, Kirk ams, Dr. Kirk Adams. Com and I'm on LinkedIn a lot. I'm Kirk Adams on LinkedIn. And thank you for listening to my really wonderful visit with Meghan. Catching up.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. It was it was really a wonderful hour spent with you. And and I look forward to sharing all of our progress on our next call, maybe a year from now or so. Every single day. Relentless forward progress.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's it. I love that. And I'm going to inclusive saratoga.com right now. And liking you on the social.   Meghan Connolly Haupt: Thanks so much Kirk I really appreciate you and all your work. You be well.   Dr. Kirk Adams: All right. You too. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Kirk Adams. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep making an impact.  

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with disability advocate, outdoor enthusiast, and "The Blind Chick" podcast host Penn Street. Penn recounts the dramatic origins of her blindness—two rattlesnake bites at age nine triggered Stevens-Johnson syndrome, leaving her with severe burns, lasting eye damage, and years of surgeries. Growing up as the ninth of ten siblings, she credits a rugged childhood, supportive teachers, and the Lion s Clubs with building her resilience. A move to Colorado opened doors to better medical care and the mountains she loves; later, climber Erik Weihenmayer's example convinced her she could still scale rock walls, raft the Grand Canyon, and teach adaptive outdoor skills to other blind adventurers. The conversation pivots to Penn's current role as Development and Outreach Director for After Sight, the Colorado nonprofit that delivers daily audio editions of state newspapers and produces a family of blind-led podcasts — including her own lively show rebranded from "Community Conversations." She and Dr. Adams explore the mental-health dimensions of vision loss, Penn's embrace of full-contact self-defense after a violent assault, and the power of therapy, nature, and community to heal trauma. Penn invites listeners to join her annual Maya's Gulch hike this September and to reach out — whether for a trail guide, a podcast idea, or simply a reminder that blindness need not define anyone's limits.   TRANSCRIPT:   Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Hello, everybody, and welcome to Podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am Doctor Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And I have an amazing guest with me today. Her name is Penn Street, and I met her through Dave Epstein or Sedona Dave. Who developed the all terrain cane. In 2019, when I was at the American Foundation for the blind. I had the privilege of going to Sedona and being in a group of 8 or 9 blind people and hiking trails around Sedona, Arizona, and I was able to do that independently, really, for the first time, I my retinas detached when I was five years old. I became totally blind. I went to a school for blind kids in Oregon, and they were very experiential school. They took us backpacking in the three Soul Three Sisters Wilderness area every summer, and I can remember hiking those trails with my backpack on and using a using sighted guide. Having my hand on the sleeping bag rolled up at the bottom of the backpack in front of me. And then when I was 19 years old, I had the opportunity to climb Mount Rainier. Which was a great event multi disabled climbing team. And again, a lot, a lot of sighted guide. So to use the all terrain cane and to walk swiftly and confidently across a rugged mountain trail, it's pretty cool. And then fast forward a bit and Dave said there's a really cool person you need to meet. Her name was Penn. So? So here she is.   Podcast Commentator: So   Dr. Kirk Adams: And then if you want to talk a little bit about you.   Penn Street: Sure. Hi, Kirk. It's good to good to be here. And thanks to Sedona. Dave. I'm actually trying to remember how I got connected with Dave. I think he actually reached out to me because of the the cane, and he knew that I knew Eric Waimea and And that. Yeah, it's a lot of us people think all blind people know each other and. Right, right.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I've had I've had that experience. I was in Ketchikan, Alaska. My wife. Salmon fishing. Oh, we're getting in the boat. And someone walked down the down the dock with a cane. And, yeah, they assumed you probably know them. Said, no, I probably don't know them.   Penn Street: Yeah, my husband does that to me when we travel. Is there's a person with a blind person, you know, you know, who's blind, who has a cane or a guide dog. You need to go meet them. And I was like maybe, maybe not. Right. But yeah, but yeah. So yeah, it's when people say, so tell me a little bit about yourself. It's like, well, where do you, where do you.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I'd like to know about the blindness. I like to know about the blindness journey.   Penn Street: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Every every story is different as far as that goes.   Penn Street: Oh, isn't that the truth? Yeah. I've always wanted to, like, write a book or something about all the ways you can go blind because they it's it's just numerous. When I was nine, I was bit by a rattlesnake a western diamondback rattlesnake, actually and it made me twice and all the anti-venom and all the fun stuff they give you, especially as a kid to, you know, save your life from being bitten by a venomous snake. Triggered a syndrome called Stevens-Johnson syndrome. And it's it's a pretty nasty syndrome, especially the onset. They treat you in a burn unit. It's just like you've been in a fire. So, yeah, 75% of my body was covered in second and third degree burns. They did not believe I'd ever be able to breathe on my own or you know. You know, eat without, you know, assistance through a feeding tube. They definitely thought I was going to be blind and deaf. Because if you think when you're in a fire, you're nothing but soft tissue. Right. So. Right. So even after the scars, you know, heal it's those that scar tissue creates a lot of issues inside the body and out. But I. You know, I'm a tomboy. I'm the ninth of ten kids, so I have seven older brothers. So I sort of had to come out.   Dr. Kirk Adams: You'd been you'd been pretty toughened up.   Penn Street: I did, and really. And the doctors told my parents that. They said it was really great that she came from such a strong baseline, not just physically, but mentally that it set her up to not only to survive, but to strive afterwards. And so it was definitely touch and go for a long, long time, and I guess probably still is. But but yeah, so I it, I think it was harder on my parents and, and family and even friends than it was on me because I went from this incredibly vibrant, healthy kid to basically overnight not knowing if I was going to survive. And if I did, what was that life going to be like? And we were in rural Arkansas when this happened. So not a ton of blind resources and services and stuff. But the the first people that really stepped up were the Lions Clubs. Yeah. Yeah. They basically showed up at my parent's door when I was, you know, it was months and months before I was allowed to go home. And they said, what? What is your. You know, we heard your daughter's blind cause, you know, made the news. This was so rare. And Yeah. And so they they're the ones.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That are totally pin.   Penn Street: No. In my right eye, I I actually have a prosthetic eye. My left eye. I still have a little peripheral out of my left, but it's it's pretty fuzzy. It's. Gotcha. I try not to rely on it. It usually gets me into trouble if I do.   Dr. Kirk Adams: The lion's clubs are good for that. I mean, I, I lived in little teeny town Silverton, Oregon. We moved down there so I could go to the school for the blind for first, second and third grade. And the lions built our fun house at the school.   Penn Street: Exactly right.   Dr. Kirk Adams: When I was 14, they sent me to. There was an organization called Blind Outdoor Leisure Development. And they paid my way to go to Aspen, Colorado, to go down a bunch of other blind people. So. Yeah. Thank you. Lions.   Penn Street: Yes, Lions. Big, big shout out to you. So but yeah, I. And then like a lot of us, we really paid attention to, like our teachers and our mentors growing up. And I don't know about you, but there weren't a lot of well, actually, I was the only blind kid in the school all through high school. Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Fourth grade, through my doctorate. Yeah, after third grade.   Penn Street: And it's crazy. Where are we? There's a lot of us. Where are we? And but I, I really knew and appreciated how much my teachers helped. Not not just, you know. Oh, we'll pass you in English because we know you can't see the book, but they really went above and beyond to find accessibility where they could. And back then I'm 57. So back then there wasn't all the digital stuff that's now. Right, right. Things like that. And so even getting me access to Braille Rail was, you know, this crazy, crazy amount of energy had to go into that. But my parents did end up deciding to move to Colorado, which. Thank you. And part of that was there was, you know, the Children's Hospital in Denver, Colorado, was actually internationally known. And and I needed a lot of medical help to keep going forward. And, and also just accessibility. You know, like teachers that actually knew how to teach blankets and stuff. So. So we moved out to Colorado and fell in love with the mountains and being outside and yeah. And I and I grew up at school came easy to me. I, I have no clue why. It's not that I'm super smart or anything. I am a puzzle solver. So I felt like school was a puzzle. And so if you kept the pieces together and you did them in a timely fashion, you got good grades and they moved you on. So it was it was really easy. And but I knew I wanted to become a teacher of some sort. Or a journalist like to write about people with disabilities. Like, this was especially after I got to Colorado. And even though there were no blind children in my school my teacher, she was one teacher, and she. I don't know how many schools she covered, but there was a lot of them. Well, like once a month, she would get us all together to go bowling or horseback riding or something.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So she was an itinerant teacher, going. Yes, to various schools where there were blind kids?   Penn Street: Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And she and she would call together all the various schools. That was cool.   Penn Street: Yes. Yeah. And and she really did go above and beyond. And even as a kid, I knew she was going above and beyond. You know, she, she even on weekends, she had a cabin up in the up in the mountains and her and some other adults would take us all up there and we'd have camp outs and stuff. So but so I just loved these teachers that that were able to help me succeed. And so I knew I wanted to have do that when I grew up. And so, you know, I that's what I went to school for. And I've worked with all kinds of levels of everything from teaching daily living skills, teaching braille you know, all different things. And then.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I studied.   Penn Street: Actually at in Denver.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. But you studied education as a foreign.   Penn Street: Yes, yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Field of study.   Penn Street: Okay.   Penn Street: Yes, exactly. And I and I specifically went into early childhood development because I felt like if you could teach kids the tools as early as possible the stronger their, you know, academic career would be and the easier it would be for them. And then. But I ended up actually spending a lot of my life working with older people like seniors and people who had, you know, it was either like their second career, you know, they were older. But I did miss the kids, but it was just happenstance. I met Eric Weimer right after he had summited Everest. And and he was doing the Seven Summits at that time, and and I just he his whole attitude, his whole being and really changed my life. I had just lost a huge chunk of my residual vision, and, and I, and I had the skill set right. But I did need to go back and get some refresher on computer skills and things like that. But Eric really was a role model for me that I could still rock climb and hike and I could still have this Impact in the world, even outside of teaching. And so just by happenstance, his he got me involved in volunteering at his nonprofit, No Barriers. And I really loved it. Like, I fell in love with actually teaching hiking skills and rock climbing skills. And I ended up working even for a rock climbing gym where we taught blind kids how to rock climb and love that. And he was the one, even though I'd been into, you know, camping in the outdoor world, he was the one that really sort of ignited that into a different level.   Penn Street: And I loved it. Loved it. And then they brought me on staff full time, and that was when really adventure took off, actually. Nine years ago this last weekend we is when I pulled out of the Grand Canyon. We, you know, nobody has paid me, which I've. Done it for free. But I'm glad they didn't know that at the time. But I got to raft the entire Grand Canyon with a group of high schoolers that were blind and low vision. So awesome. It was just incredible. And, you know, Covid hit, right? So that you know, that caused such a mess in my life. But, you know, they they had to lay everybody off and then eventually let people go because it was just their their entire being was in-person experience gathering. Yeah. And so they just and they're still trying to hang in there. But it's I really hope they get to come back. But I don't know at the level they will. When I was there but I, I got this job that I have now. And actually a blind friend of mine, I didn't even know it was out on the market. And it's a nonprofit called After Sight, and we cover all of Colorado and an incredible organization. They've been around for 35 years. And it was founded by a blind person, David Dawson. And he when he moved to Colorado from D.C., he realized that there was no accessible way to access, you know, access newspapers and magazines in Colorado like he did when he was in Washington, D.C.. And so he started this, like, audio reading service.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. So he access the D.C.. Had access to a radio reading service?   Penn Street: Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Audio reading service.   Penn Street: Okay.   Penn Street: Yeah. And so he started after sight. And now we we have over 100 volunteers that read most of Colorado's newspapers daily, 365 days a year. And we put those out in audio editions, and it's absolutely free. And we've grown. We've grown a lot. I came on, you know, almost going on five years now, and I'm their development and outreach director. And we moved everything onto all of the platform. Yeah. Platforms for podcasts. And so you don't need to have, like a digital receiver or any special equipment to access those audio editions. And then the probably the bizarre thing to me about this whole thing is when I came on, they had a podcast. It was called Community Conversations, but it really was waning. You know, the person who was doing it, you know, didn't really want to do it anymore. And so they asked me if I would take it over. And I have I have a ton of connections in the blind world. And so I was like, yeah, sure, I don't. I mean, I listen to podcasts, but I have no idea how to be a host. And so it really was, you know, kind of learning, learning as I went. And I didn't really like the title community conversations. It really didn't share the vision that I wanted to do with the podcast. And so so we came up with with the Blind Chick because on social media, that's what everybody calls me. And that's my handle is the blind chick. Not everybody loves it, but it fits me. I am the blind. And and so yeah, we rebranded it and we hired a podcast producer and it just exploded, like and I don't.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I didn't realize that you are the blind chick.   Penn Street: I am.   Penn Street: The blind.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Because I see posts by blind chick, and now I know it's you.   Penn Street: So, I mean, maybe there's others out there, I don't know.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So very coincidentally 32 years ago, I had graduated from college, had a lot of trouble finding work, and took took a job selling tax free municipal bonds over the phone, which I did for ten years and earned enough to get married and buy a house and have kids. Yeah, those things, but didn't didn't like it. Yeah, very much. But I, you know, decided to pivot into the nonprofit sector and started looking for resource development jobs and not getting them because I didn't have experience. But I got a newsletter from the Washington, Washington Talking Book and Braille Library and said, we have to raise $200,000 or close down the Evergreen Radio Reading service. So I called the librarian and said I would volunteer to help her raise that money, and that would give me experience in resource development, something for my resume. Yeah. So I did that and wrote a couple letters of inquiry, got invited to submit some full grant proposals and had beginner's luck. Got some nice checks and they said, how about we create a job for you here?   Penn Street: So.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So my first nonprofit Prophet job was to was as a development officer for the Seattle Public Library Foundation, that is, raising money for the talking book and Braille library.   Penn Street: That is awesome.   Dr. Kirk Adams: There. There you go. We have that in common.   Penn Street: Yeah. And I didn't I you know, I've done development work for a long, long time and I, I'm, I'm good at it, I guess because I keep getting hired as it. But I, it was never like a career. It was never really on my radar to grow up and be a development director. But it's I like doing it. The one thing though, I can only sell something I'm passionate about.   Penn Street: Well that's right.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's that's why there's so much turnover among resource development professionals because they, they, they go to an organization, they're very, very excited about it. Then they over the next couple of years, they kind of were that's maybe not all they wanted it to be.   Penn Street: But it's it's also a lot of responsibility, right? Like it's knowing that your coworkers, you know. Livelihood is in your in your hands or on your shoulder.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So is after primarily focused on delivering news and periodicals to blind people or have you, as the organization developed additional programs over the years?   Penn Street: Oh, yeah. Definitely. So the podcast, the original podcast the Blind Chick is their flagship one, but they also have one called Blind Level Tech, which is also doing amazing. And it's about blind tech and it's low tech and it's also, you know, what's the latest, greatest, you know, meta glasses that have come out. And and then we have one called Blind Sight, and that one is mental health, you know, and and because, you know, mental health is it's the same yet different if you're blind and low vision. And so in most of our original podcasts are hosted by people who are blind or low vision. You know, we have one called Navigating Life with Vision Loss, and that has seasons. And so they'll have a certain amount of episodes on a very specific topic, like the the one that's coming up is about safety. And so and again, it's how it's from the perspective of how is safety different? Or maybe added levels that you need to think about when you're blind or low vision. So yeah. And then we're adding one this this fall called Code Orange, which Marty Sorbo out of California is going to host that for us.   Penn Street: He's a he was a firefighter before he lost his vision. And okay, it's that one is very, very specific about disaster being prepared for disasters or even natural disasters because he lived through the wildfires that just happened in LA. And, you know, with his firefighting background and then with his lived experience recently he's he's going to come on and we'll, we'll. And I'm excited for that because I know here in Colorado we it's scary. You know, here in my little town in called Loveland, Colorado, we have had wildfires come really close to town. Luckily they didn't get into town, but we were, you know, we were on pre evacuation. And we've also in 2013, right after we moved here, there was a huge flood. And the only thing that saved our house is we're up on a bluff. But we were kind of on this island because the water got, you know, so high and so intense for so long. So, you know, whether you believe in climate change or not it's still an issue. And you know, there are.   Penn Street: Things that Mother nature.   Penn Street: Yeah. You just don't think about, you know, like, like evacuation is a little different. If you've got a white cane and, you know, they're telling you to get in your car and.   Penn Street: Right, right, right, right, right.   Penn Street: Or if you have a guide dog. Right. You know that. How different does that look and stuff. So.   Penn Street: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Are you are you a guide dog user or.   Penn Street: I am, I am. I because of my health issues, I have to have a hypoallergenic dog. So I've, I've only had standard poodles and my, my fourth dog, but he is about to turn 12, so his name's Beethoven, and he's a big. Well, he I guess he used to be black and now he's quite silver. But yeah, big standard.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Happens to the best of us. Beethoven.   Penn Street: Exactly what? What about you? Are you a.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I learned how to use a cane when I was six. And I've just always been very, very comfortable with, with cane travel. So. Yeah, I stick with that. But I, I'd like to venture into some territory. I don't know how comfortable you'll be, but I'm going to go.   Penn Street: I'm an. I'm an open.   Penn Street: Book.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So you mean you mentioned blindsight? Dealing with mental health and blindness, right?   Penn Street: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So I was not in the hospital for months and months at a stretch like you, but I did have probably ten unsuccessful eye surgeries between age six and 12. And I would be in the hospital for a couple of weeks at a time. After surgery with my with my head in a clamp so I couldn't move my head and, you know, jar the, you know, the surgical work I drink eating through a straw. Yeah. Because I couldn't. Wasn't supposed to do because the jaw jaw movement could be disruptive. Right. So you know, I, I've had some I've had some issues with, with the depression and frustration and things. Yeah. No, I did did go to some talk therapy. I actually had a wonderful experience meeting a woman who teaches narrative medicine at Columbia University. When we lived on the East Coast and she she taught me some meditation and some energy healing, some some pretty, some pretty woo woo stuff that.   Penn Street: Really I love. I love the woo woo stuff.   Penn Street: So.   Dr. Kirk Adams: But you know, one of the talk therapists said to me, you know, have you done anything about dealing with your childhood trauma? I said, childhood trauma. She's like, yes, you were six years old in the hospital by yourself?   Penn Street: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Or two weeks with your head in a clamp?   Penn Street: Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Childhood trauma, my friend. And then, you know, there's things like I lived in these little towns. We lived out of town, you know. No, no. Public transportation. And then you know, I was in a regular high school and Then when kids turned 16, everyone got a driver's license, so everyone drove. It was car, you know, car culture. Let's meet here. Let's meet there. Everyone was driving. I wasn't always included. So, yeah, I had a lot of anger and grief and, you know, the whole grief, grief cycle just around that. I'm just wondering, any thoughts, general or particular, about blindness and mental health?   Penn Street: Absolutely. When growing up, I mean, I saw, just like, the regular counselor at school, but again, I was the only, you know, blind person there. I think she did it because probably somebody told her, oh, you need to meet with the blind student, you know? But we didn't really talk about anything. We didn't talk about, you know, it was most like, oh, I see you. You're doing really good in English. You know, kind of stuff. Like, it wasn't it was just an excuse to get out of class once a week. But when I decided to move away from home to go to school. And I was I didn't go very far. I just went to Denver. But I wanted to live in Denver. I didn't want to live at home and and go to school in my hometown. I wanted to get out on my own. And it was not too long after that, I. I was assaulted. And it was crazy long, horrific story. But what was interesting is I, you know, they, you know, even just dealing with the police and the doctors and stuff at that point because I couldn't describe them. I didn't know what they was. I knew there were three, but I didn't know. I didn't know, you know. And but then but then I was I described the experience with my other senses. And, you know, I said, well, you know, I smelt this and blah, blah, blah. And so that was really important to the case. And there was even some witnesses and stuff like that out of that, what came out of that and, you know, and the police said, you know, oh, you actually gave a better description than most victims give. And and that was what really triggered me to go to therapy. The, the, I was, I was 19. You know, I was young. And the one thing the reason I wanted to go to therapy is because I was maybe told by the I don't know who said it, but it was some comment like, oh, once you're victimized, you're more likely to be a victim. And that scared me to death.   Penn Street: Yeah.   Penn Street: Like it scared me. Like, because I didn't think of myself as a victim because I couldn't see like, I didn't. My mom was always afraid. But that my low vision would, you know, people would take advantage of me. But I don't think she I think she thought like, oh, when I go buy a Coke at the local store.   Penn Street: Yeah.   Penn Street: They're not going to give me back the like. I think.   Penn Street: That's what she.   Penn Street: Thought. I don't think she thought that I would physically be damaged because of I was blind, and I don't know if I was targeted because I was blind. But but it could have been, but anyway, I was so scared to be victimized again that I really went overboard with that. Every, every therapy you can imagine, you know, couch art talk singing, drumming. And it was in also in Boulder, Colorado, which is at that time was the hippy dippy, you know, new agey. Any kind of therapy would go. But I also one of the things that really changed my life is I got into self-defense and.   Penn Street: Okay.   Penn Street: And I, my therapist actually turned me on. It was full contact self-defense. And they're still around. And actually it came out of California. It's called model mugging. Model mugging.   Penn Street: Mugging.   Penn Street: Okay, yeah. And the guy dresses up in this, he looks kind of like an alien. He's all padded head to toe. He kind of looks like an alien, and he's very scary, and and they're they're you know, black belt martial arts, you know, people, men who who help with this program. And I got very involved with that. And I took everything from the basic course to multiple assailant course to weapons course. And what they do is they attack you and just like, you know, you're walking down the street you know, they had all these scenarios if you were laying down in bed and all this kind of stuff, and they teach you them. I was the first blind person. That was, of course, maybe that was definitely the first, I hope Hopefully it wasn't the last, but so. But I was a better fighter than the sighted people. And part of it was, is I had to use my other senses. Yeah. Because when you're in a kind of that, you know, flee or fight or whatever it's called, they you really don't use your vision. You have to use your, your, your entire body. And so and I even ended up getting certified and was one of the assistant trainers for years and years and years and.   Penn Street: Oh, cool.   Penn Street: That was that was really important. And, and then throughout the years I've gone back for, you know, like you know, like when I lost that big chunk of vision over my I went back because I really was, even though I'd been low vision, extremely low vision, but losing another big chunk really kind of sent me in a pretty bad spiral because part of it was I really thought that I wouldn't be able to climb and ski and do the outdoor things, because I didn't really have a role model in my life that did that. Eric.   Penn Street: And then but yeah, and even recently Kirk like because with the Stevens-Johnson syndrome, everything breaks down faster. So like, even in my 20s, I started getting arthritis, and you know, I don't have a great heart. I don't have great lungs. Even though I live extremely healthy. You know, I, I eat right, I exercise, I, you know, I don't smoke, I don't do any of the fun stuff everybody else gets to do. But like, lately, these last couple of years have kind of been a really rough roller coaster for my health and some pretty scary moments over the last couple of years with my health. And it's it's definitely put me in a place, and I was even just over the weekend talking to my husband like, you know what? Maybe I should think about seeing somebody because this is not me and I don't. I usually bounce back faster than this. And and I'm not bouncing back very fast anymore. And I'm not just talking physically. I'm talking mentally. And so but I, I think you had a really good point of your somebody saying, have you ever thought about about your childhood trauma? I think a lot of kids that are blind and low vision, they just and maybe kids in general, they just take it for granted. Oh, well, this is just what I'm going through. Like, you don't really grasp that it's trauma until you're older and right. You know, you look back and you're like, wait a minute, that was kind of crummy. And that I had to go through that alone, or nobody was explaining to me what, Oh, yeah. Happening.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Like I remember all the medical.   Penn Street: Oh, the medical stuff is a nightmare. I don't care what age you are, but when you're a little kid and you're going through it a lot, like, I remember my first eye surgery that I had. And I like you. I've had so many, I can't even count. But for some reason, they. I mean, I was a pretty chill kid, like, I wasn't, you know, I was pretty chill. But they gave me some kind of, like, super light sedative to get me from my hospital room into the operating room so that maybe I don't know what they were thinking, but when I came to, I was in the operating room and I was alone. I was like, oh, wow. Literally alone. And And I knew my parents were in the hospital. Like, I knew that. And so I started yelling for my dad, like, you know, da da da da. And Then all of a sudden, you know, these nurses, doctors come in. Oh, well. And the more they came, like, I, they're, like, trying to pin me down, which just scared me way worse. Well, my dad comes through the door, and I'm sure he, like, sees these nurses.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Like, holding her down.   Penn Street: And then he freaks out, which makes me freak out more. And, yeah, I mean, obviously everything ended up okay, and I'm sure they just knocked me out, right? Skip the screaming kid. Calm down. But it's like, I. I've never forgotten that, you know? And my dad didn't either. My dad, it was. He was traumatized by that adult trauma. Exactly. And so you think of those things. And I think as kids, we kind of just shove them like I'm just something I went through. You know.   Dr. Kirk Adams: My my stuff was done at the University of Oregon Medical School Hospital in Portland. Okay. Dawn Becker was 10th floor. That was the children's floor. But it was a teaching hospital. My my doctor Swan was kind of a renowned retinal specialist. Yeah. So I was looked at by lots and lots of students. So there'd be a room with, like, 20 students in it. And, you know, me with my eyes dilated in the bright lights and, you know, exactly 20 people taking their turn and discussing me, like, you know, like what? Like what I was to them.   Penn Street: Yes, exactly.   Dr. Kirk Adams: A lesson.   Penn Street: Hopefully they passed.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Exactly right.   Penn Street: That's. Absolutely.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So Therapy. Good. Yeah. Say that.   Penn Street: Absolutely. Fine.   Dr. Kirk Adams: You're gonna find a therapist who is blind or visually impaired or has another disability. That's a.   Penn Street: Good. Yeah. That's a bonus.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's a bonus. But don't don't don't Feel it is any sign of weakness to ask for help and support from professionals who are trained to do that?   Penn Street: Absolutely. And I also am a big believer that just being outside can be therapeutic. Yeah, absolutely. Regardless of it's, you know, sitting in your backyard, whatever. You're yeah, you know, happy places, you know.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Go gotta go get your bare feet on the grass.   Penn Street: Exactly.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So Pan, this time has flown by.   Penn Street: I know.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Anything you want people to know. You want to tell people again how they could find your podcast?   Penn Street: Yeah. So you can. I'm on all the platforms. All. All the platforms. The blind check. And. Yeah, check it out. We I interview people from all over the world. I'm going to be in you know, Doctor Kirk Adams here is going to be on. And people come on and they they share their stories. I've, you know, interviewed artists and musicians and authors and doctors and, I mean, you name it, but also just everyday people like me. I'm not any of those things either. So but it's been really, really fun. And if you have a question or if you're in Colorado and you want to go for a hike you can reach out to me by email and that's pen pen at after site.org. Or if you are in Colorado or want to come to Colorado, we're having a really amazing hike. September 13th, we're going to be hiking Maya's Gulch Trail, and there'll be a lot of amazing blind and low vision people there and a lot of great sighted guides. And yeah, it's we do it once a year and it's just a really fun outdoor event. If you've never hiked before, that's okay. You know, we'll have people there to help you navigate that. Or even if you're a, you know, a trail runner, we'll have people there that can or bring your own guide if you want. Levels all levels. So it's just a beautiful, beautiful day. And yeah, I just, you know, I really have tried not to let my vision loss define who I am. I have so much more about me than my vision loss. And so it's. And I'm in Sedona. Dave, thanks for introducing the two of us.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah I think thanks, Sedona. Dave, I know you're listening.   Penn Street: Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So Wonderful, man. Great. Looking forward to being in dialogue with you over the coming years now that we know each other.   Penn Street: Absolutely.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So people want to get in touch with me. My email is Kirk Adams Adams. Doctor. Kirk Adams. Com. Kirk Adams at Kirk Adams. Com. I'm on LinkedIn a lot. I'm Kirk Adams on LinkedIn. And thank you all for listening. And we'll see you next time.   Penn Street: Thanks.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Adams. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.  

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Seattle-based runner and social-impact professional Ixchel Lemus Bromley. The conversation traces her journey from Costa Rica to Pennsylvania and on to the Pacific Northwest, culminating in a college-age diagnosis of retinitis pigmentosa that reshaped her sense of identity and mobility. Bromley explains how guided running restored the "true freedom" she once felt on solo runs, using hand- or waist-tethers and vivid verbal cues to replace anxiety with trust and exhilaration. Determined to share that liberation with others, she founded Free 2 Fly, a Sunday-morning adaptive running club now evolving into a nonprofit that pairs blind and low-vision athletes with sighted guides and is gearing up for its first 5 K event.   Beyond the track, Bromley leads the social-responsibility team at Brooks Running, where she safeguards worker rights across the brand's global supply chain—an extension of her passion for equitable access and inclusion. She and Adams trade stories of childhood athletics, the mechanics of safe pacing, and the broader message that alternative techniques can unlock performance and belonging for people with vision loss. The episode closes with Adams pledging his support and inviting listeners to volunteer as guides or runners, underscoring their shared conviction that partnership is the engine of empowerment.   TRANSCRIPT:   Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to Podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am Doctor Kirk Adams, speaking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And I have a fellow Seattle person with me today, Ixchel Lemus Bromley and Ixchel, if you want to say hi.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. Hi, this is Ixchel. Thanks for having me.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Great. Awesome. So I'll just speak a little bit about myself for those who are listening, who might not know me. And then. Then I'd really like to hand hand you the, the talking stick Ixchel, and have you tell us about yourself. But I again, I'm Doctor Kirk Adams. I'm a totally blind person. I have been since age five, when my retinas both detached. So Ixchel and and I have had quite different journeys in visual impairment and blindness. I became totally blind very quickly. And I went to a school for blind kids for second and third grade, and there was no question that I needed to learn blindness skills. So I was taught braille as a six year old and how to travel confidently and gracefully with a long white cane, and then how to type on a typewriter so I could start into public school when I was ready. And that was fourth grade. And then I went all the way through, lived in small rural towns in Oregon and Washington. I was always the only blind student in all of my schools from fourth grade through my my doctoral program. But I entered the nonprofit sector about ten years after college, after spending ten years in banking and finance, entered the sector through becoming a professional fundraising person, was hired by the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle to start their foundation and their fundraising program.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And thanks to their investments in me and my development, my professional development, I was privileged to become the president and CEO at the Lighthouse here in Seattle, which is a social enterprise employing blind and deaf blind people in a variety of businesses, most notably aerospace manufacturing, making parts for all the Boeing aircraft. I was recruited to join the board of the American Foundation for the blind. Afp. Which is Helen Keller's organization and one I had been familiar with since being a first grader at a school for the blind. As we had materials in the classroom developed by American Foundation for the blind, and I was given the opportunity and the privilege to become the president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind. In 2016 moved from Seattle to New York City and then to the Washington, D.C. area and then back home during the pandemic and after managing AFB remotely for a time, I decided it was time for a change, and I stepped away from that great organization and wonderful role and started a consulting practice.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I call it Innovative Impact, LLC. I'm just three, three years in, and I mostly work with companies to help them accelerate inclusion of people who are blind in their workforce and getting a lot of traction in the cybersecurity industry, which is exciting and new. I am not a cybersecurity expert, but I am a blindness employment expert. So I've partnered with a cybersecurity company called Nova Coast, and we've developed the Apex program, which you can find at the Apex Apex program. And it's a virtual training and certification program to launch blind people into cybersecurity careers. And I'm very proud of it. So I, I, I mentioned it a lot. So yeah, with that, I'm let's see, married to my college sweetheart. We'll, we'll hit the 40 year anniversary mark next month. We have two grown children, one of whom is in Seattle, our son, who has blessed us with two amazing grandchildren. And our daughter lives in Los Angeles, and she'll be coming up Friday for her annual summer visit. So that's a that's a little about me. And now for the star of the show. You shall welcome. And we'd love to hear about your journey. As a blind person.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you so much. We're we're where you're currently at and what you're working on. You're doing some amazing things in the community.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Thank you. Yeah. It's it's awesome to be talking with you today. And I'm always. Yeah, so, so amazed by all that you've done. So I feel very lucky to be here talking to you today. And thank you for everything that you've done for the community. It's it's truly amazing and so impactful. Thank you. Yeah. So I'm Estelle. I was born in San Jose, Costa Rica. I lived there for six years. My my dad is Guatemalan and my mom is American. So was born there. I lived there for six years and then moved to the United States when I was six. Grew up in the Pennsylvania area outside of Philadelphia. And when I was very little, there was some Someone noticed noticed that I had some visual issues. And, you know, I quickly went to the eye doctor when I was around 3 or 4 years old to understand what was going on. I got a pair of glasses. I remember my first pair were pink and Barbie themed, and I loved them. And I remember just being able to see through them and it was really amazing the, the sight that I had at the time and, and that transition I went through from like, really not being able to see much to having some clarity there. Then when I was six and I lived in Pennsylvania, Sylvania. I went to my annual eye doctor appointment, and my eye doctor at the time noticed that my pupils reacted a little strangely and abnormally to light.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: And he he said that I was likely night blind. But that it wouldn't really be an issue unless I wanted to enlist. Those were the words that he told me. And so my mom and I were like, okay, well, that's what we were told. So let's let's just move on. And I was sick. So no plans to enlist at that time. And we moved on with it. But later on in my life when I was in middle school and then early high school, a lot of my hobbies were around dance and theater. And with dance and theater, you're backstage a lot, and the lighting is very, very dim. Or there's no light to help with that. And I noticed my my night vision was really not great. And I would tell everybody, you know, I'm night blind. That's what I've been told. I need a little bit more support at backstage. At that time. Then the night vision was a struggle, but it wasn't fully gone. So it just seemed like I had a little bit a harder time than most people, but I could still see a little bit and so was able to navigate a bit myself. As time went on, I got my driver's license and then I would drive even at night. Wow. Yep.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So. So in my experience something really significant in my life is I, I lived in these rural towns, and we lived out of town. And when I, when, when I turned 16, we lived in Silverton, Oregon. We lived out on Silver Silver Creek Falls Road, a couple of miles out of town. And when kids turned 16 they all got driver's licenses and they all got some sort of part time job or paid something. Yeah. And so that was super isolating for me and super psycho socially really, really hard. So I was pretty I was pretty sad about that. And, you know, the social scene shifted to car culture, and everyone drove everywhere and met, you know, by driving and so that that that was a tough time. So I am glad for you that you had the cool experience of driving.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I can't I can't imagine that time, you know, in in your shoes. I think for me, what was interesting was I got my license, I was told I could drive, and I started driving at night and realized I shouldn't be driving. But it was this hard realization. And as a 16 year old, to make that decision when you know there's no one telling you you can't. All your friends are doing it and you know. Yeah. You become so independent and you want to join your friends. You want to feel like you are growing and you know, maturing in the same level. And you really sense that you shouldn't be driving at night. And so it ended up actually coming back to me. And I said, I've had some close calls. I shouldn't be driving at night. I think that there is a bigger issue with my vision than I was told. And my, my mom and I decided to go on a journey and try to find some doctors that would tell us what was happening. So we actually visited a lot of different doctors in the Philadelphia area until finally someone said, you know what? I think you should get an erg scan and see if there's any anything that comes out of that. And I did this scan and right before I went off to college I did all the testing and then was told six months later, halfway through my freshman year of college, that I was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: And that I was essentially going blind. And so that was interesting to me and interesting time because for me, it was almost like a sense of relief. Like, I had a diagnosis and I could research it. I was validated in my feelings and my sentiments that there was something you know, going on with my vision beyond this, you know, night blindness diagnosis I'd gotten many years ago. But for my family, I think it was a little bit harder to grasp because they had never really been a part of the blind blindness community. Low vision community. And, yeah, they didn't really know how to support me what this would be like. And it was an yeah, a challenging but, you know, also validating time in my life to receive that diagnosis. And so I went through college having now I knew I had RPI. I went to Boston University and I studied communications there. And at the time with, with my diagnosis I yeah, my night vision wasn't great, but I still had a lot of vision during the daytime. So I was not using any kind of mobility devices, not really using anything to help me out. I could manage pretty much as a sighted person. And it was interesting because I was like, where do I fit in if I am not totally sighted and I'm not totally blind? Where is my place? But I think I just embraced and tried to hold on to what I could.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Of of still having sight and presenting myself like that. Until actually quite recently, where more of my vision has or my vision has declined further. So in, in the past few years, I now live in Seattle, as you mentioned. I'm here. And I work for Brooks running the the performance footwear and apparel company. And I am a runner, and I've been a runner for the past 6 or 7 years. And for a while, I ran totally independently. It was something that brought a lot of freedom into my life, and it made me feel really capable. Especially when, you know, there are a lot of things I have felt I couldn't do as much anymore. But in the past few years, I was tripping a lot when I was running, was falling, was having some close calls, and I found that the freedom I once felt in running was was slowly, disappearing. It was no longer freeing. And it was actually very anxiety inducing to go out for a run. But I was introduced to guided running last year, which totally, totally changed my mindset on a lot of things. And one of those things was, you know, really presenting myself as a low vision blind individual, being comfortable asking for help and transitioning the ways that I do things to adapt, to be able to continue, you know, living my life and doing everything.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Alternative to alternative techniques.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Right, exactly.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So you and I met out at Brooks running headquarters and in the center of the universe in Fremont. Yes. Seattle. And it was a foundation fighting blindness event where a lot of organizations in the community that have to do with recreation and outdoor activities for people who are blind gathered together. And you and I had a little conversation about that. I ran cross-country in high school. My junior and senior years. We had moved from Silverton, Oregon to Snohomish, Washington, and my English teacher was the cross-country coach, and I was kind of a I was I was wrestling from our earlier age, but I, I was a fit. Kind of tall, slender guy. And he said, you look like you should run distance. So why don't you come out and try cross-country, which I did. And and I had a really wonderful experience. I, we invented our we invented guided running for ourselves because we didn't we didn't have any contact with any other blind people. We just kind of made it up on the fly. I ran with teammates during practice and then for meets the girls cross country coach, a gentleman named Mac Bates, was a very competitive distance runner. So he he ran with me during meets. And he could run and carry on a normal conversation. Well, well, I, I was doing. Doing my best, but I couldn't remember that sense of freedom. I remember when the first district meet. It was all on Walter E Hall Golf course up in Everett. And it was the first time I had worn spikes. And I just remember you know, they were long sloping grassy expanses there. There was really no danger of collision or tripping. And I can just remember that sense of freedom when I really, really ran. I mean, really opened up and and ran at, you know, my full, full capability. And it was a wonderful thing. And then the other little, little piece. Yeah, the other little piece is Coach Eason said. Go buy a pair of Brooks Villanova's to train it. So that's what. That's what I had.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: So awesome. I love to hear that. But yeah, I think that the sense of freedom is is something I love to talk about because I think, you know, if I look back on a few years ago when I was running by myself, I thought that what I was feeling was freedom. And I think in a way it was it was great for me to go out and do that. But the minute I started running with a guide where, you know, you no longer had to try to see something you would never see or slow your pace so that you wouldn't trip or fall or just feel safe and not and let go of the anxiety. Oh my gosh. It was so freeing and so amazing to just go out there and feel like you can truly practice the sport with the help of of somebody making sure that you stay safe and that you stay on the path and hopefully don't twist an ankle.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So we did the guided running. It was just all verbal. He he would run kind of a half pace. Ahead.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Just off my shoulder and you know, say, you know, there's a slope coming up in about ten, you know, 20 strides gradual slope down or, you know, we're coming up on you know we're going to angle to the right about 20 degrees that, that kind of thing. And then how do you do it? What's what what's the real technique?   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: I, I always tell people that, you know, it's whatever works best for you. And so I think that there's a few different techniques that I've seen people use. My, my preferred technique is I use what I call either a hand tether or a waist tether. The hand tether is it can be anything, honestly, that you both hold on to. But I have ones that my my friend actually crocheted and it's a, it's a bracelet basically that goes on my wrist. And then there's a attachment to another bracelet that goes on my guide's wrist. And as we're running the tether, does a lot of the communication for you, because if we need to go a little bit to the left or a little bit to the right, you'll either sense the tension of the tether, or you'll sense that the person guiding you is becoming a little closer to you, which tells you to move a little bit more. There's also a lot with just contact. So when we do turns, those can be really tricky. But if you have your forearms connected, you can feel the degree of the turn that you are about to make. And so there's a lot you can do from just a feel and touch. If, if you're comfortable with that and then obviously verbal cues on hills, textures, lighting, all of that can help as well. Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Do you have a preference for which side your guide is on?   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: I always prefer my left side. I think for me to, when I'm running on a path that has runners coming the other way, it's nice to have a blocker of.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Right, right, right. That makes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Sense.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. And then I think a bonus tip that I always tell the guides is that what's really nice is when a guide can communicate what they're seeing and what they're passing. So describing the area, describing the scenery. And I always said that the first time I ran a race with the guides was the first race that I really felt like I saw, because they were reading the signs, they were telling me what was going on. And I had run many races in the past by myself, but really didn't feel like I had experienced what was around me. So it was really beautiful to have that extra layer of help and support.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And now you've you've. You're spreading the joy by by creating your running group.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: I am yes. So that's been the best thing I think I've, I've ever started is I, after my own experience of transitioning from running solely you know, alone to running with a guide, I realized that I shouldn't be the only one who gets to experience the sensation, and that there's also such beautiful community and partnership in adaptive running with guides and living in the Seattle area. I had not found another organization that was, you know, specific to adaptive running for low vision blind individuals. That was meeting regularly to really help folks get into running. I think something that is interesting for running is that the more you do it, the better you get. And so with a lot of things and if people want to, you know, feel more confident running, I wanted to build a space where they had the opportunity to do that. And so I started a club, a running club called Free 2 Fly. The name is very intentional. The free is really a play on, on the freedom that you feel, and hopefully that you'll feel when you begin to run with us. The two is the the number two, which is a play on the, the two people that you need to be able to run. And the partnership that it involves and the fly is not only the sensation, hopefully that you're feeling like you're flying or running is the closest you can get to flying.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: I think from at least that I know of from a human perspective. But it's also play on the logo that I have, which has two tethered butterflies on it. And to me, butterflies have always symbolized transformation and change and seeing the beauty in, in that. And I think for me, transitioning into this and also accepting myself as a low vision blind individual and adapting to change I've seen that, like being positive in that transformation has helped me see the beauty in it as well. And so that's where the name comes from. And I thought a lot about it. But now, now I love I love that we say 3 to 5. So that's the name. And we meet every Sunday morning. Here in Seattle, we have guides and low vision. Blind athletes come and I always pair up a guide and a runner based on their pace, their goals. And it's been really amazing and it has grown a lot over the last few months. And we're a group of us are all doing A5K in the next few weeks together, and it'll be some of their first races ever. First. That's great. Yeah, it'll it'll be really fun. So it's been the best project and I'm really.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Really.   Dr. Kirk Adams: On Sundays, do you always meet at the same place or you just you move.   Dr. Kirk Adams: On.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: So we have been meeting in the same place. There's we meet at Gasworks Park, and that helps to make sure that, you know, you you gain some familiarity with this space. And I think that helps. At least it has helped me be more confident when I'm familiar with that. Okay. There will be some hills. There will be, you know, some bikers potentially just knowing that. But then also as a blind runner myself, I have also wanted to explore other places. And I think with guides you can really go anywhere. So we actually now just started this yesterday on our meetup. Every first, first Sunday of every month we will go to a new place. And I've been calling that our monthly field trip to a new place.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Where was your field? Oh. Green lake.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. Green Lake yesterday.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yep. Yeah. So yeah, for.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Those of you not from Seattle, Green Lake has a beautiful path around the whole lake, so.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: How do people get in touch if they want to run or want to guide?   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. So right now we're trying to build out something that's a little bit easier, like some websites and, and stuff. Right now social media is the, the easiest way. We have an Instagram account called Free 2 Fly. Underscore RC where a lot of people can get in touch. There's also an app called Halo h e l o Oh and that's where I organize the, the attendees every week, so you can RSVP to each run that way. I will say that the app right now has some accessibility challenges. And so I have been contacting the blind low vision runners on WhatsApp separately, but I'm also working on trying to get that app to be more accessible so that we can have everyone on one place.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I I'm really intrigued by your job, your day job and what you do at Brooks running. If if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Of course. That your career and how you got into it and What how how did you get from Boston University to Fremont neighborhood in Seattle?   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. So I, I think that I've always been an impact driven person. I've always wanted to work in a role where I would be making a positive impact. I think that's what drives me to work every day. But I, I graduated from Boston University with a degree in mass communications. But I honestly had no real idea at the time when I was in school what I wanted to do. All I knew was that I, I really liked the fashion industry in college. And so while I was at Bu, I did a few internships in the fashion space, more around the merchandising side of fashion. And that brought me actually to Seattle for Nordstrom. I worked there for a few years. And at Nordstrom, I you know, started as an intern in, in mass communication or sorry, not mass communications in fashion merchandising, working in the buying office. But as I was there, I, you know, had posed some questions about sustainability. I always thought that, you know, brands and retailers should be doing more in the sustainability space and was really lucky that at the time, they needed entry level people in that space and so was offered a role.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: After my internship in the CSR department, the corporate social responsibility department at Nordstrom. And that role focused mostly on the social side of sustainability, which is really around human rights in the supply chain, making sure that the factories we're working with are compliant to laws and regulations that uphold worker rights. And I loved it and I, I felt like there was a lot we could do to help benefit the people making the products. And so I was there for a few years doing a lot of that work, and then ended up, you know, finding a similar role at Brooks. Now, I, I. I lead that department at Brooks. And I, I do similar things, but have Brooks has a smaller supply chain, so it's, it's a little bit more focused in that way. But we yeah, we work every day with the factories that make our products to do different kinds of assessments and make sure that the workers in those factories are treated fairly, compensated fairly, and that we are sourcing our products in an ethical way.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Sounds like fun to me.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: It's it's a lot of work, but it's great.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So the time has flown by, but any any thoughts on. I know you're you're going to be growing Free 2 Fly. Are there other, you know, are you similar simmering on any other endeavors?   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Right now my focus is on Free 2 Fly. By I do. I'm working right now to establish it as a non-profit. I think that there's a lot we can do to help this community beyond these, like, weekly community events. And so I think that once that step is completed, there's a lot more that we can do there to help support this community and also help, you know, diversify the running industry by helping promote you know, races and have folks go and, and join them and just have the visibility of these people since and raising awareness since a lot of time. We're not seeing us being represented in those areas. So that's the focus. I think there's a lot of a lot of work there that can be done. So it excites me a lot. And yeah, we'll see where that goes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh Well, so glad that I decided to go to the FFP event at Brooks Running and met you. And I am here to. I'm here to support in any way I can. And if anyone's listening, who wants to get in touch with me Email us. Kirk. Adams. Adams. Adams. Adams. Com. And I'm Kirk Adams, PhD, on LinkedIn. And my my PhD is in leadership and change, and I did an ethnographic study of blind adults employed at large American corporations. So I interviewed a lot of cool blind people working out at a lot of companies that we're all familiar with. And I learned about why they self-defined as successfully employed the factors that they felt led to their ability to be successful, and then the ongoing going. Disappointment and frustration that everyone still experiences being being in that world that wasn't necessarily designed for us, but still needing to make our way and doing the best we can to thrive. So I really appreciate you what you're doing. Thank you so much for joining me today, and I look forward to speaking with you again soon. Thanks, everybody.   Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Thank you.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Adams. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep making an impact.  

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Margaux Joffe, a board-certified cognitive specialist, accessibility champion and founder of Minds of All Kinds, to trace her journey from a late-in-life ADHD diagnosis at 29 to becoming a leading voice for neurodiversity in tech and beyond. Joffe recounts how learning she was neurodivergent reframed earlier struggles, inspired the women-focused Kaleidoscope Society project, and ultimately propelled her to create Yahoo's first Neurodiversity Employee Resource Group, which blossomed into a 35-office global network before she moved full-time into the company's storied accessibility team. Along the way she underscores the importance of dismantling invisible workplace barriers, from overwhelming procurement paperwork to inaccessible technologies, and credits mentors like accessibility luminaries Larry Goldberg and Mike Banach for sharpening her advocacy lens. The conversation then pivots to Joffe's entrepreneurial leap: launching Minds of All Kinds as an LLC dedicated to "learn, connect and lead" programming for neurodivergent professionals. Flagship offering ADHD Navigators has already graduated more than a hundred participants across fifteen cohorts, pairing evidence-based coaching with peer community to combat burnout and build strength-based career strategies. Joffe and Adams explore the ripple effects, parents modeling self-regulation for their children, companies re-thinking cognitive accessibility, and a broader "generational healing" that turns lived experience into systemic change. Their dialogue leaves listeners with a clear takeaway: inclusive design and empowered storytelling are not just accommodations, they're pathways to flourishing workplaces and lives. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am, said Doctor Kirk Adams. And today I have a fabulous guest who I have had the pleasure of knowing for quite a number of years now. Margaux Joffe is here. She is the founder of a nonprofit called Minds of All Kinds. So say hi, Margaux.   Margaux Joffe: Hi. Hi. Kirk. Hi everyone listening. Let me just say. Oh, Doctor Kirk. My Bad.   Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. One time.   Margaux Joffe: Doctor Kirk.   Dr. Kirk Adams: We'll go doctor one time. But yeah, I, I and I come by that. For those who don't know me, I have a PhD in leadership and Change from Antioch University, which I completed about six years ago. And my dissertation it's called Journeys Through Rough Country, an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. So I interviewed a lot of really cool blind people working at brand name companies that we all know and found out to. To what did they attribute their success? What were their challenges and ongoing challenges and what are their disappointments? That was a bit of a surprise that I wanted people who would self-describe as successfully employed, and they all did. And they, they very clearly tied that success to compensation and economic freedom, and they all expressed a pretty strong degree of disappointment that they were the only person who was blind who'd reach that level in the org chart, that they didn't see anyone in leadership with the disability, that people who were junior to them and they felt less qualified were promoted beyond them, that they needed to constantly battle for accommodations that their employer would, for instance, decide to implement a new technology system and not take accessibility into account.   Dr. Kirk Adams: They would walk in one day to do their job and couldn't do it. So they had had had to continually, continually battle and really disappointed really, really a high level of disappointment that they were the exception rather than. And anyway, it's called Journeys Through Rough Country by Doctor Kirk Adams. You can find it with a search engine. And I'm proud of it. The doctoral work was really, really enlightening, talking to all these fellow blind individuals. And I'm blind myself. Have been since age five, when my retinas detached and I became totally blind very suddenly. And I went to a residential school for blind kids. State of Oregon, Oregon State School for the blind for first, second, and third grade. And I was given three gifts there. I was given really strong blindness skills. I had to learn how to read braille, travel with a cane, and type on a typewriter. So I could go to public school. When I was ready, I was given the blindness skills I was given the gift of high expectations. Not all kids with disabilities live in environments where people expect much of them. And sometimes those low expectations become internalized.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So I had high expectations from my family and my school, and then I then I was given that strong internal locus of control, and that that's something that everyone I interviewed for my dissertation talked about, that they had some set of experiences that gave them that belief deep in their bones that they could overcome. They could solve problems. They could carve their own path as, as opposed to a strong external locus of control where you think things, things are happening to me, and I can't really do much about that. So that, so that so that's a that's just a little bit about me. But we're really here to learn about you, Margaux. So I would love to hear about your journey as a person. With a disability. And what brought you to the point where you founded minds of all kinds and what you're currently doing, what the scope of activity is on your vision of the future because I know you have one. So I'll turn it over to you and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll reserve the right to pop in and ask you a question from time to time. But really, here's the talking stick. I'm handing it to you.   Margaux Joffe: Okay. Thank you. I'm taking the talking stick. Thank you for having me on your podcast. It's so fun to do this after. I think we met in person maybe eight years ago or so when I was working at Yahoo. Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Brand new. Yeah. Just starting.   Margaux Joffe: I was just starting on the Yahoo accessibility team, and I believe you came maybe, maybe my first couple weeks in that role. So. Yeah, it's what a full circle moment. But yeah. So thank you for the introduction. I am proud to be a neurodivergent woman. I am a board certified cognitive specialist and the founder of Minds of All Kinds, which is an LLC platform for neurodivergent individuals to learn, connect and lead. And we also do training for companies to help them learn how to be more inclusive for minds of all kinds. And it's funny because I didn't always do this work, and I didn't always know that I was even neurodivergent. I have a background in the creative field, so I'm a former producer. About I spent about ten years producing everything from public health campaigns for the city of Boston to advertising campaigns for big brands in New York City and then tech campaigns in Silicon Valley. And that's how I where I started making my transition into accessibility. And really the turning point for me came when I was 29 and I was diagnosed with ADHD. That was really a life changing experience. That shifted how I understood myself, how I understood the world and LED to me creating a platform for women with ADHD, which ultimately led into my broader neurodiversity and accessibility work.   Dr. Kirk Adams: But a little bit more about that, and I think I misspoke when I said you founded a nonprofit. I think you just said you're an LLC.   Margaux Joffe: Yes. I just wanted to make that connection. And I think it's funny because one of the reasons I chose an LLC structure is because when it comes to running a business, when it comes to working, when it comes to just adulting and surviving in the world, there's so much paperwork. There's a term called administrative burden. And for people with cognitive disabilities, for people who are neurodivergent, sometimes it's the paperwork that can get in the way of our greatness. And I was literally just talking to somebody earlier this morning who is this incredible public speaker and futurist technologist who travels around the world working with big companies. And she was literally just telling me that she hasn't gotten a payment for one of her projects because she hasn't done the paperwork to get into their procurement system. And that's the blocker. And she's really struggling. And so that that's the thing that's one of the things for people to understand is that. There's so many invisible barriers. Yeah. That many other people don't understand why is this a big deal? You know, just like fill out this procurement paperwork.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Right?   Margaux Joffe: But things are not always cognitively accessible, and that keeps people out. And that keeps people out of financial opportunities. So I'm now I'm now I'm on my cognitive accessibility soapbox. But to answer your question.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I wanted to I also wanted to hear about to diagnosis. So you said the turning point came at 29 when you were diagnosed with ADHD. And, you know, I'm aware that people receive that diagnosis as adults. And what led you to the point where you were in a situation where you were being diagnosed or being treated, or what was the situation that led to you understanding that ADHD is one of your characteristics?   Margaux Joffe: Yeah. So it's interesting because when we're born with a certain type of brain, we don't know anything different. And that's how it was for me. Like I was just like, oh, this is how my mind works. I thought this, I thought it was how everybody's mind works. Right? And you know, I started struggling with depression and anxiety when I was in my teenage years. And it really escalated when I went to college. And because there was no concrete outward thing I could point to as to why I was feeling that way, why I would just feel this chaos of emotion sometimes, why I felt disorganized, overwhelmed, you know, but in many other ways, you know, I was smart. I did well in school. So and, you know, some people use this term spiky profile. I definitely had a spiky profile where I had extreme strengths. And then also very frustrating challenges in areas that made me feel like maybe I was just being lazy. So what do you do if you think you're lazy, you work twice as hard as anyone else. So I did a lot of masking and overcompensating, and I also just chalked it up to, you know, I'm a creative, sensitive person. So I thought, you know, I just need to toughen up because the world is tough and I'm just too sensitive and my heart is too tender for this world. And when I was in my late 20s, I got a job working for a non-profit media company in the Bay area.   Margaux Joffe: So I left New York City. I'd been working in New York City as a producer, and I wanted to get back to work. That was social impact driven because I had loved working in an advertising agency, working with amazing creative people in New York, producing exciting campaigns. But I felt like something was missing because I've always been energized when I'm working on projects where I feel like it's making a difference for people. And so I took this job working for a non-profit media company, so I moved across the country. It was a lot of change all at once, you know, new, new living arrangement, new job, new city, new. My support systems that I had in New York were gone, and my anxiety really ramped up and I started having panic attacks and I just knew something was wrong. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know what it was. And actually, the day that kind of made it clear was I went to Ikea and my mom kindly volunteered to come with me to help me because I had to get some furniture for my new apartment. And I don't know why. We thought we decided to go on a Sunday and it was hot. It was crowded. There was so many people there that day. There was kids screaming and looking back, I can see now what was happening was it was from a sensory perspective. It was very overstimulating for me. So the sensory environment was very overstimulating. I didn't have any awareness or tools.   Margaux Joffe: Like today, I bring my earplugs with me. When I go into places like that, I prepare mentally in advance, knowing like, okay, this might be a lot, but I'm mentally prepared and I know that I can have an exit plan, but that day I didn't have any of those awareness or tools or language to be able to advocate for myself. And my battery started getting run down. And on top of that, I was using a lot of executive functioning skills because I had to make a lot of decisions about am I, am I buying this color of towels or am I buying that color of towels? What couch am I going to get? And these are like big decisions about spending money. And so I was using a lot of cognitive resources, and I think I was like, maybe I didn't sleep well the night before. And so my cognitive battery, my brain battery was definitely run down. And I started to as we're going through Ikea, all of a sudden something felt wrong and I was like, oh, like I felt like I was shutting down and now I understand sensory overload and that there was more information coming in from my sensory environment than my brain had the ability to process. And so for me, it, you know, it triggered a response of anxiety, of panic, of emotional you know, emotional flooding. And I wasn't able to, you know, communicate my needs in that moment. And I just told my mom I was like, I was like, I can't I can't stay here.   Margaux Joffe: I need to get out of here. And I didn't have the language to explain why. Right. And she was like, oh, like we're almost done. Like, let's just keep going. And, you know, when we don't understand what's going on, it can make us feel like a child, you know, like childish, like, well, this is not a big deal. What's wrong with you? Why can't you just, you know, make this this like we're in an Ikea, like what's going on, right? So. Right. But my mom is amazing, and so she. I think she could tell I was overwhelmed, and she Yeah, we finished the shopping trip. We got out of there, and the next morning she called me and I remember it was, you know, first thing in the morning. And she was like, it's now a good time. I want to talk to you about something important. And my first thought was like, oh my gosh, did a relative die like her? Because her tone of voice was very different. Serious? I knew like, this was going to be a conversation that I needed to be paying attention to. And before I could say anything, she was like, you know, I was reading this article about women with ADHD and I wanted to read you this list of symptoms. And she started reading this list of symptoms of women with ADHD. And I remember I was listening to her words, and it was like someone was holding up a mirror to my life.   Margaux Joffe: And here tears just started streaming down my face. I mean, I was 29, right? So imagine I had lived almost three decades of life, and it was this recognition moment of like, oh my gosh, even realizing something was different. And then also at the same time having this relief of an explanation of like, oh my gosh, there's a reason why certain things were so hard for me or why I have certain experiences, and it was also a roller coaster of emotion. So after that I went and got an evaluation and so many emotions, you know, the relief and the moments, but also the grief and sadness about, wow, maybe I could have gotten a lot more out of my education if I knew, and different ways of studying, different ways of doing things in school without using different strategies that I used of like, you know, just white knuckling my way through doing whatever I could to, to get things done, even if it was like also just bullshitting and improvising my way through a lot of stuff that that was hard. And so I always tell people who are recently diagnosed, whether it's with ADHD or, another form of neuro divergences. You don't have to figure it out all in the first day. Giving yourself time to process the diagnosis is important because there's a lot of emotions, and sometimes it takes time to process and really settle into knowing what that means for you. And that's okay.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So you're you have a name now for. Yeah. You have language now that you didn't have before at 29. You've been given terminologies and explanations and rationales for why you've had some of the experiences you had. So I imagine then as you process and kind of grew into that understanding that also some other things must have changed for you too.   Margaux Joffe: Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, being able to name our experiences is so important because when we name something, then we can navigate it and then it's not we can look at it outside of ourself and be like, okay sensory overload. I may have I have sensory processing sensitivities. This means if I go into certain environments, I may start to get overstimulated. That's what that might look like. And here's ways I can support myself I can communicate, I can plan ahead. I can manage my cognitive resources. I can bring earplugs. I can make decisions about where I'm going on a first date with somebody. Maybe I'm not going to a sports bar. Maybe I'm going to a cozy cafe. Right? So we start to have more agency over our life. And when you were talking about strong, you were talking about strong locus of control as one of the gifts that you got from the school that you went to. And I think that resonated with me deeply, because I see a specifically for a lot of people with ADHD. Part of the healing journey is regaining our locus of control, and to put it in plain language, is regaining trust in our own self and regaining the feeling that we have the power to make decisions over our own life.   Margaux Joffe: Because for people that go undiagnosed with ADHD, we are taking actions, but we're not getting the outcomes that we want or that we expect, right? So we might care about someone a lot, have an intention. We want to do something. We say we're going to do something and then we don't do it. We don't follow through. And so that's one example of a struggle that, you know, people with ADHD, if they're undiagnosed or even if they have a diagnosis, but they don't have the skills and strategies. There's a lot of shame around a lot of shame around not following through and even on things that are important, you know, things that are important to people. And so what happens is not only does that damage our relationships with people in our life and damage our credibility. The most painful part of it is that it damages our ability to trust our self. And so when you lose trust in yourself, then that's going back to you feel like you don't have that locus of control. You don't have agency self-efficacy, being able to feel like you can trust yourself to have power over your own life.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And did the diagnosis and the language and the self-identification of the person who's neurodivergent. And that leads you to the work and accessibility you mentioned when I first met you. You were you were part of the accessibility team at Yahoo! Like, you know, I was the CEO of American Foundation for the blind at the time that come out, come out from New York to visit our friends in the Bay area. And so I'm just wondering how you went. I think you said you're working for a nonprofit media company at the time of your diagnosis. And how what was the path from there to being on? Yeah, on a on a renowned accessibility team with some with some legends and accessibility.   Margaux Joffe: Life is so life is so funny and amazing and, you know, the roads and how we get to where we are. But when I was first diagnosed, no, I wasn't thinking I'm going to now become an accessibility, you know, professional. That was not my thought at all. My first thought was just what does this mean for me and What the heck? I mean, I'm a producer. How can I have ADHD? I mean, I literally get paid to produce campaigns on time and on budget, staying on top of every detail, making sure they're getting delivered to the spec in the right file format and so they can work whether they're going on TV, radio, internet, etc.. So learning about ADHD was a huge eye opener to be like, oh, people with ADHD, it's not that they can't pay attention is that our attention works differently and we're motivated by things like interest, challenge, novelty, urgency. I was like, oh, it makes sense now working in the creative field because there's such a high level of novelty. There's always new campaigns, new amazing creative people to work with, urgency, being in a fast paced, deadline driven environment. Challenge is always new challenges to solve. And so that's why you see a lot of people with ADHD in fields like journalism, technology, emergency first response services. And when we're in those environments, we can thrive at the time, I was not thriving in that. And that specific time I was struggling and I was looking for resources for adult women with ADHD. And so this was about 11 years ago that I was diagnosed. And I remember, you know, going online because I'm a millennial.   Margaux Joffe: And I was like, let me go on the internet. And a lot of the information I found was for parents, you know parents or men. And a lot of it was clinical and very mythologizing about like, this is what's wrong with you. And these are the bad outcomes. And if you have ADHD, you won't accomplish your goals and you'll be in financial ruin, and you'll be in divorce and you'll lose your job. You know, a lot of negative. Yeah, a lot of negative content out there. And I was struggling to find resources that I could relate with. I was struggling to find role models. You know, I remember I went to I started therapy for the first time after my diagnosis and my therapist was amazing. He specialized in ADHD. I always tell people, if you're looking for a therapist and you have ADHD, you know, ask them about what their experience is because not all of therapists have experience working with people with ADHD. But he showed me this PowerPoint and it was it was so great. And it was telling me, you know, explaining what ADHD is. And there was this one slide that was about strengths, and there was another slide about famous people with ADHD. So he really took a strengths based approach, and I really loved that. We got to the slide about famous people with ADHD. And I remember it was all men literally like not one woman on this slide. It was, you know, a list of all these men and, you know, like Richard Branson and, you know, all of the, all of the usual. And it was in that moment where I was like, wow.   Margaux Joffe: Like where, where are the women? And I went on to Instagram and I looked for ADHD women, and I found there was two posts with the hashtag because at that time that's how you searched up you on the. There was a hashtag area, two posts with the hashtag ADHD women, and that's hard to even believe, as I'm saying it now, because now we have TikTok. TikTok wasn't even a thing then. But you know, we go into TikTok, you can find millions of videos of women talking without with ADHD. But it was in that moment where I started thinking about, how can I help other people that are probably struggling in the same way that I am? And I thought about, how can I use my background as a producer and in documentary work to make a difference? So I started interviewing women with ADHD. I went to a local support group, and I met a couple women that were there And I started there. And just one by one, I started interviewing women with ADHD about their lived experiences. And that led to creating a website called Kaleidoscope Society, which was the first of its kind content platform created for and by women with ADHD. And so we highlighted diverse lived experience of different women and their experience about how they were building on their strengths, how they were navigating challenges. And then I also got to work with leading experts in the field to create, you know, short form digital media content that we could highlight specifically for this audience. And so that was really my journey.   Dr. Kirk Adams: This kaleidoscope society is still a resource for people. Or is it morphed into something else?   Margaux Joffe: Yes. And so yes. And in that I made the decision two years ago to sunset the website. It's still there as an archive that I have to say, there are a couple accessibility issues with it as WordPress. You know, as things have changed and things have gotten outdated. And so but I kept it up as an archive. So Kaleidoscope society.com, it still is there. And now I have expanded my work to minds of all kinds, really, to create resources around neurodiversity more broadly. But Kaleidoscope Society was really my onramp into what would be my journey into the accessibility field. But it didn't happen right away. I was just doing Kaleidoscope Society on the on the side as a passion project. And during that time, I had taken a new role as head of production in the marketing department for Yahoo! And when I took the role, I didn't disclose I had ADHD because, you know, I was trying to pay my bills and it was my first job in tech. It was still a time where I was in meetings, where sometimes I was the only woman in the room. And, you know, I was trying to build my career as a as a producer. And I was also a people manager. So I had I managed a team of producers. So I was also worried about what are people going to think? And I really just wanted to give people the chance to see what I could do before they had a label in their mind that could possibly change their perception of my abilities, especially in the role of production, because production is all again about, you know, it's all about getting things done on time and on budget and being organized.   Margaux Joffe: And so that doesn't really jive with the stereotypes that are out there about ADHD. So I was working. So how I got into accessibility from there was working in production. And two things happen. One is that about a year in, I started feeling like I was living a double life because Kaleidoscope Society was gaining traction. We were getting more attention. There was media coverage about us. And so in in my free time, I was an advocate in the community, in the community for women with ADHD. But then my day job, I was masking and I didn't tell anybody at work. No one knew that I had ADHD. No one knew that I had created this project for women with ADHD. So I started to feel that my integrity wasn't yeah, wasn't showing up. And integrity is one of my top three core values. So I started to feel like this noise inside of me. And so I started thinking, what could I do, where I am in the role that I'm at, where I could make a difference, maybe in my workplace. And I had been hearing all these stories from women with ADHD, and one of the main challenges that I was hearing time and again was challenges in the workplace. Do I disclose in the workplace, You know, what about all of these? You know, all the different challenges people were experiencing. And so I started to see, like, this is an area that we need to address.   Margaux Joffe: And it was funny, at the time, I didn't know anyone with ADHD at Yahoo. I didn't know any neurodivergent people. People didn't talk about neurodiversity. People didn't even talk about mental health at the time in the way that they do now. And I saw that we had ERGs, which are employee resource groups, which are basically like peer networks for employees of different identities, whether they're veterans, black employees, women. So I started thinking, like, maybe I can build on this existing structure that exists. And I propose starting a neurodiversity employee resource group. At the time, people didn't really even know what I was talking about, like what neurodiversity means. But we had an amazing head of Dei and she supported it. And we launched the group in 2017. And it was funny because on in the proposal they asked me like, well, how many employees do you have that are going to join? And I said, you know, and it was hard for me to answer because I didn't know, but I knew, I knew in my I knew in my intuition. I'm like, I know we're out here because first of all, the tech and the creative areas like the neurodivergent people were out here. And and then I remember we, we made the announcement. And then one by one by one, people started coming forward saying, yes, like, this is me. I want to be part of this. And over the next few years, we built a global peer support network in 35 offices around the world. And that was.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Wow.   Margaux Joffe: Transformative. And I mean, and in that process. So this is the long, winding road of how I got to accessibility. So well, that was happening and I was working on the proposal. I had also, in parallel been asking about accessibility because as a producer, it was one of the things that I knew from my agency days of like, you know, different companies have different requirements about if you're launching a website, if you're launching, you know, a digital campaign, there's accessibility requirements. So I didn't really know much about accessibility, but I knew it was a thing, and I was getting a lot of blank stares in the marketing department. And so I went to the product department and there was this one guy and he's like, oh yeah, go talk to the accessibility team. I was like, oh, we have an accessibility team. Like I had been at the company for a while. I didn't even know we had an accessibility team. And I remember I went over to another building on our campus and walked into this little kind of like conference room that was in the corner that had been converted into. When I first walked in, it looked like a computer lab, and that's when I found the accessibility team and they're like, come on in. And they started showing me the assistive technology that they had. And they started talking to me about all about accessibility. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, we need to get the whole marketing department knowing about this. This is an amazing resource. And I'm talking about, I mean, you know, the team I mean, Larry, Larry Goldberg, who helped get closed captions on TV for the first time, Mike. Banach, who had worked had come from Apple and who had helped be part of the initiative to get VoiceOver launched. I mean, these were some of the OGs in the accessibility.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Space you had. You had legends on that team, that's for sure.   Margaux Joffe: Yes.   Margaux Joffe: And that's where I always say, I mean, I was so lucky to. That we had that team. I mean, I've everything I know is because of all the people that have worked in the field that taught me everything they knew. And so it really started. I went to our, our head of marketing and I was like, hey, you know, we need to add this into our production guidelines. And there's a team and they can and they can train us. And so we started I started setting up workshops where we would bring groups from marketing the designers, the developers, bringing them over to the accessibility lab to do workshops. And then it just sort of evolved. And then my boss was like, hey, can you be the unofficial accessibility, you know, point of contact for our department, for the marketing department. And it really just evolved from there. And as I started learning more and more about accessibility, I really was like, and then I had launched the Neurodiversity Employee Resource Group at that time, and I really felt like, okay, I love producing, but this accessibility stuff, this is lighting me up in a way that is different. And I was so passionate about it, and I saw that there was such a need for us to spread accessibility, awareness and education. And so it evolved. And it it got to a point where the accessibility team, their biggest challenge is that people in the company didn't really know that they existed and what they did. And accessibility is really everyone's job. It's not the job of an accessibility team. I mean, accessibility teams are there to you know, have the subject matter expertise and help guide. But really, accessibility is successful when everyone in a company knows how they need to be applying it into their everyday work.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Right.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So you are no longer leading a double life.   Margaux Joffe: Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: You're leading a life, an integrated whole life.   Margaux Joffe: And yeah, so I was able to make a transition into the accessibility team full time. So I, I moved and that's like one of the things I tell you, people, you know, if they're starting out their career, the cool thing about working at a large company is that you have so much opportunity for growth, and you can start doing one thing, and then a couple of years later, you can maybe move into a different department. And so I really am thankful that I had that opportunity. And I it was kind of like a crash course. And I learned.   Margaux Joffe: I.   Margaux Joffe: Learned so much about accessibility. You got to work with amazing partners and groups, you know, like your former organization. So yeah, that's the long version, the long.   Margaux Joffe: Version of the story.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That's a that's a super interesting version. I really appreciate it. And then let's fast forward a little bit to mines of all kinds.   Margaux Joffe: Yeah. So I. Worked on a number of disability initiatives and accessibility initiatives that I won't get into, but about. We got acquired by Verizon. And my journey continued and Verizon corporate brought me over to. Work in their corporate social responsibility team, building out their disability inclusion pillar within their broader portfolio. And that was also a great experience. And then about four years ago, I got to a point where I really realized, like I wanted to focus on neurodiversity and there was so much I wanted to do. And so I decided to leave my corporate job four years ago to go out on my own. And I started minds of all kinds. The first program that I launched was a professional development program for adults with ADHD. Because. So after I had been so publicly visible about being a professional with ADHD, I got so many people reaching out to me about wanting to learn. How do I navigate this? What are skills and strategies? So it was really like the biggest area of need at that time that I was seeing in the community.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So these are working age professional people who have understand that they are neurodiverse and they're looking for tools and techniques and.   Margaux Joffe: Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And resources to thrive. Yes. And so, gotcha.   Margaux Joffe: And I wanted to make sure that I wanted to make sure that, you know, I could create something that was super valuable. So I was like, let me partner with somebody who is best in the world at coaching for adults with ADHD, right? Because my background in accessibility and corporate disability inclusion and a lot of lived experience and also expertise that I had gained. But, you know, I wasn't trained as an ADHD coach per se. You know, so I, I ended up partnering with an amazing person. Cathy Richardson, who is a faculty member at the AD Coach Academy. So she literally trains coaches. ADHD coaches on how to coach and work with adults with ADHD. So we put our superpowers together to create the initial program that we initially was called the great ADHD reset, and it was an eight week cohort based program live cohort based program for adults with ADHD. So anyone from early career to senior career who were looking to escape, you know, the overwhelm, the burnout, the exhaustion that can come with being a professional with ADHD and really figure out how do I move through my day to day life with a more even keel one day at a time and channel my strengths, build on my strengths. So we launched that program in the fall of 2021. We facilitated eight cohorts together. We had over 100 graduates and incredible. Learned so much. And then her work kind of shifted a bit. And so we decided to stop running that program together. But I relaunched another ADHD program using a lot of the core curriculum that we had created together called ADHD navigators.   Margaux Joffe: And we just graduated our seventh cohort of that program. So to sum it up, over the over the last few years, I facilitated 15, 15 group programs for adults with ADHD. And that's one of one of my favorite things to do is working with neurodivergent people. It's been such a privilege. And so that's a that's a core program of minds of all kinds is our ADHD navigators program. I also host community events where I'll bring in outside experts to bring knowledge and resources to the community. So we have for an example One of my friends is an HR expert. She used to be head of HR at places like Netflix and CNN, and she came in to do an event with our community, answering tough questions about workplace challenges specifically for neurodivergent people. Questions like, what do I do if my accommodation requests are denied? How do I navigate micromanaging bosses? You know what? If I'm neurodivergent and I put on a performance improvement plan, how do I navigate these tough situations? So she provided coaching and advice. And so that's an example of, of some of the kind of events is like, and really just responding to the community needs and wants. So listening to people about what their challenges are and then bringing in experts. So that's the community side of things. And really, my vision is creating the space where neurodivergent people, where we can learn, connect and lead. And it starts with empowering ourselves. And once we can empower ourselves. People are empowering others. I've heard stories of people that have gone through the navigators program, and now they're telling me that, you know, they're able to share some of the skills and strategies with their kids because, you know, ADHD is highly genetic.   Margaux Joffe: So if you have ADHD, there's a high chance when one or more of your kids is going to have ADHD. Right. So this is a generational thing. And so I think a lot about how I can be one small part of creating generational healing in my community. And what I mean by generational healing is a lot of forms of neurodivergent are genetic and run of families especially, you know, autism, ADHD, bipolar, etc.. And so our parents and the older generations, a lot of them didn't have access to diagnosis or even know that they were neurodivergent, and so they didn't have the knowledge and skills. And that, for many, caused a lot of challenges that could have been avoided. And they didn't always know how they could pass that down to us. But now we have an opportunity now that we're in this time and we are having these diagnoses and finally getting this awareness and knowledge, we can break the cycle. And first empowering ourselves. And so then we can pass that down to the next generation, whether it's our kids, young people in our life that we're mentoring and letting them know, you know, there are ways of doing things that can be less stressful. You can improve your quality of life. You know, here's things you can do. And also when we can model it, when we can regulate our emotions when we can be at peace in ourselves. Then we can show others that way to peace.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Wow.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So I just feel like saying I'm really proud of you. Really proud of you. Just you're doing wonderful work in helping so many people and going to be helping so many more. And if people want to connect with you and minds of all kinds, what's the best way for people to get in touch?   Margaux Joffe: Thank you for that. Well, you can check out our website. Minds of all kinds. We have our events listed there, and we have a resources page where we link out to, you know, other organizations that are doing great work. So you can visit mines of all kinds or, you know, connect with me on LinkedIn, you know, where I'm on the internet.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So yeah, yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And I just referred someone to yesterday who recruits and places neurodivergent talent, the tech companies who's also here in Seattle. So they'll be reaching out to via LinkedIn shortly.   Margaux Joffe: And thank you so much for that. And thanks for yeah, thanks for making the connection. I love what you're doing with this podcast. I think it's so important that all of us in different areas in the disability space collaborate and work together. We're definitely stronger together. And I think that's something that's important is the the cross movement solidarity.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And sometime we'll, we'll talk about people with multiple disabilities, people who are blind and deaf who have ADHD, and people with ushers who have ADHD and mobility issues and all the things. But it's time has been a truly a pleasure. And it flew by. And for those of you listening who want to get in touch with me my website is Doctor Kirk adams.com. And I'm also very active on Dr Kirk Adams PhD. Page on LinkedIn. So thank you for listening to this podcast. If I visit with Margaux Joffe from the founder of Minds of All Kinds and everyone go, go forth and do good things. So thanks, Margaux.   Margaux Joffe: Thank you Kirk.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Kirk Adams. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this 30-minute episode, Dr. Kirk Adams speaks with John Robinson, quadruple-amputee entrepreneur and CEO of Our Ability, about the journeys that led them from navigating New York's subway and Amtrak to building tech that removes barriers for people with disabilities. Robinson recounts his path from NBC ad-sales to launching Our Ability, explaining how collaboration with Syracuse University students and successive IBM Watson and Microsoft Azure grants birthed the Jobs Ability AI engine. Today that platform draws around 15,000 monthly visitors and has matched more than 10,000 job-seekers with roles at companies such as CVS and Pfizer, proving that inclusive technology can scale. The conversation pivots to a new frontier: adapting that same AI core to connect disability-owned businesses with corporate procurement opportunities. Prompted by a Fortune-500 client, Robinson is gauging community demand through a concise six-question survey sent to DOBEs, already yielding a 9 percent response rate with overwhelming support. Adams underscores the larger vision, closing the procurement gap, expanding entrepreneurial possibility, and demonstrating that inclusion is a strategic advantage, before urging listeners to complete the survey, share it widely, and join a follow-up discussion in six months when the beta marketplace goes live.   TRANSCRIPT:   Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody. This is Doctor Kirk Adams, and you are listening to the very cleverly titled podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. And my guest today is John Robinson, who is founder and owner of Our ability. And I've known John, I think it was 2016 when I was Recruited to lead the American Foundation for the blind. As president and CEO. And left that that same role at the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle and moved to New York City, lived in Brooklyn, worked at two Penn Plaza, which was right next door to Madison Square Garden in the heart of the Big Apple. And as a totally blind person my greatest orientation and mobility accomplishment was to learn how to take the F train from Park Slope to J Street Metro Tech and transfer to the A, and then take the A into Penn Station and up to 34th and into the office. So took took some leaps of faith. I know, I know, native New Yorkers, blind people who grew up there. It's not a thing. But but for me, I had to I had to screw my courage to the sticking point on that one. But anyway, I met I met John very soon after I, I it might have been because I had been very, very involved with disability in here in Washington state, and I think I was trying to connect with whoever was doing something locally.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And someone said, I should talk to John, and I called John, and you you graciously made the trip into Manhattan, came came to the office at AFB. We had a good talk and we we were very closely aligned on a number of things. Yes. As people with disabilities and entrepreneurs and innovators and leaders, I'll, I'll venture to say. And we've we've had a an ongoing dialogue since then. I really appreciate what John has done with our ability as far as creating a platform for people with disabilities and employers to connect. And now there's an exciting new venture, which I'll ask John to tell you about, which will also support the thriving of people with disabilities in business. But, John, I usually let my guests do most of the talking, so I probably just said about 90% of the words I'm going to say. So I would love to have you tell folks about yourself, your journey so far, how you became so passionate in advocacy and activism. What our ability is doing. How did our ability come to be? What's it doing now and where do you see it going?   John Robinson: Well, there's a lot there. Doctor Kirk Adams, I remember that meeting very well. You're exactly right. That's how it started. So if you were navigating the F train and God bless you for doing that. I was navigating the Acela train from Albany, actually, Rensselaer, down into Penn Station. And so that means, for me, navigating a lot of stairs, navigating elevators that don't work, navigating, carrying my backpack around so that I can use the washroom. I'm a quadruple amputee. I'm three foot eight. Limited extension of my arms and my legs. So our disabilities are different, but the the challenge of journey is is a challenge, and that's part of it. Similar. And so I remember the train trips very well to New York City. I very much try to avoid it as much as I possibly can. Mainly because it's just easier for me to jump in my truck with my hand controls and drive somewhere. But excuse me, new York is not easy to drive around, and it's not easy to park. So I do avoid New York as much as I can, but if I have to be there, it's it's navigating the train and the elevators. And so I empathize with what you were saying because.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, now now that I've heard this, it's even even more meaningful that you made that trek. So I really appreciate you coming in to see me.   John Robinson: We were at the time I was three years into this organization. We we have a s corp, so we have a corporation, and we had a nonprofit as well. The nonprofit was the one that was running the disability in New York entity, then NY, before the name change. We were happy to do it. It was something that we wanted to do. We had some businesses that supported us with some donations and businesses interested in what disability N was doing. Price Chopper Market 32, KeyBank, MT Bank among among those.   Dr. Kirk Adams: On for those for those who might not be familiar, I'll just give a really quick overview. So the disability in is disability. I in as an all in lean in disability in.org. It started out as the US Business Leadership Network. It was an initiative of the US Chamber of Commerce in the very early 2000. And it is a group of major corporations. 70 of the fortune 100 publicly traded large companies that have made a commitment to accelerate disability inclusion, really in three ways to employ more people with disabilities, to include people with disabilities, and design and marketing of products and services, and to do business with disability owned businesses. There is not a supplier diversity designation for disability owned business other than service disabled veterans like there are for women owned in eight A and a.m. Hubzone. So Disability In has created a certified disability owned business enterprise designation themselves, and the companies who are members have all agreed to count spend toward those certified disability owned businesses toward their supplier diversity goals. They have 20 plus local chapters, and they have a large annual international gathering. And they do some great things, particularly particularly in that sphere of very large, very large, publicly traded companies. So bless them for what they do.   John Robinson: Yes. And that's all exactly right. And at the time they were growing, we were growing. We had taken on the challenge of being the, the NY or disability in New York. But as we grew, we really wanted to focus more on technology and technology as a catalyst for opportunity. So we we started thinking about using our jobs board, which we had up mainly because of those businesses that were members they wanted. They had wanted to post jobs on our website and recruit. And so we realized that was a better opportunity for us to utilize technology. And so somewhere around 2018, we started having conversations with Syracuse University. Syracuse has a big information technology school. I'm a graduate of Syracuse. I still at the time had been on their alumni board. They came to us and asked us if they could use a capstone project in their grad school program to do something meaningful in the disability space. And what what could we use? And so that was a lot to unpack. And I realized what I really wanted to do is to see if we could use technology to do a better job in matching people to employment.   John Robinson: We, you know, we we in the disability space have lived and know about the unemployment or underemployment rate of, of our community. And so that's always been in the back of my mind. So we took the students we started working with IBM Watson. We quickly transitioned to Microsoft Azure. And Microsoft then gave us after many conversations, gave us an AI for good grant and then a second round of it, really to see if we could use gen AI to understand job descriptions and understand people. You know, now you think about where we are with ChatGPT and OpenAI, and it's also easy. Well, it wasn't easy five years ago as we were starting to build this. So we did. We built it, we broke it, built it again. And so now where we are today is if you upload the a resume PDF of your resume you or PDF for a LinkedIn profile, which is actually easier. You are the you have the beginnings of your profile. You answer a few questions, and then we pretty much instantly match you to jobs that are in our system. So this is what we've been working on.   Dr. Kirk Adams: You know, and that's a that's uploading to our ability.   John Robinson: Yeah. It's our ability. You can find the the login button and our, our ability jobs. It's at the top of the screen if you're navigating our system is also built by someone who's 100% blind. So it better be accessible inside. I laugh because I know it is and we care very deeply about it being functional and usable and that the job recommendations do the right thing and that you to jobs. So this is what we've been working on and it's been growing. We have about 15,000 people per month coming to our website, and we're really proud of that. But we've also been kicking around other ideas. And Kirk, this is. This is part of, you know, the the open exploration of entrepreneurship here. You know, we've thought about the written language, what's written in job descriptions. We tinkered with an ableist language filter to filter out ableist language. But that kind of it can be done through existing systems. So then we started considering what else could we do? And one of our clients asked us, would we be interested in taking a look? Could we use our matching system to tweak it a little bit and match businesses owned by people with disabilities? Those adobes that we were talking about with disability in with purchasing opportunities, could we sort of turn it on its head and reverse it and really provide meaningful contracting opportunities through technology? One of the frustration points that I've had as as Adobe, I'm proud of my Dhoby logo and the work that we've done way back with the US BLM.   John Robinson: But the truth is, you don't get a lot of contracting opportunities. And it seems to me that's that's a sticking point. So I thought very deeply about the client asking us that. I ignored it. Then I talked to Karthik Sahni, our chief technology officer, talked about it with him again, ignored it, but it came around to the idea that at least we want to ask the community. One of the things that we did the first time in building the job platform on the job matching system is we just built it. We were very much if you build it, they will come you know, sort of mentality. And we did. And people have come this time though before I invest dollars before I get if I get investment dollars on this, I want to know what the community thinks. So we sent out an email blast to existing disability owned businesses that we know and ask them to fill out a survey. You know, I understand it's problematic for people to fill out surveys at times. And I understand also we can all be distrustful of that and me included.   John Robinson: But I wanted to know what other people thought. And I will say as I sit here today on July 7th, Kirk, we have about 40 respondents and that's about 9% of the emails. So I guess on that standpoint from my old advertising days, that's not too bad, right? What I will say is, except for two, they all want this system and they they want we did a word cloud and the words that came up were contracting matching business opportunity. Yeah. And so, you know, the first time I jumped, I jumped into the pool, built jobs ability, built the matching system, did it because I thought it was the right thing to do. This time, I try to be a little bit smarter about how we spend our time but I also want to then then do some fundraising around it, because we want to be able to, to fund it in other ways. And if we're going to do that, then we need to know how the community feels. And so that's that's where we are right now. And it's exciting. It's daunting. But I, I don't want to just be an entrepreneur that builds a widget. I want to be an entrepreneur that helps helps our community, people with disabilities. And I think that's what this thing can do.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Look, I know, I know, you're teaching. Teaching about disability and entrepreneurship. And I'd like to say a few things about it and get your your reflections, so. Sure. When I did my dissertation, which was published in 2019, it was an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. So I interviewed a lot of really cool blind people working at a lot of companies whose names we all know and learned a lot about what they saw as the factors that led to their success and also their frustrations and disappointments. But in doing the literature review, you know, you you mentioned the unemployment and underemployment earlier. So of those of us with significant disabilities, which would include you, you and I only 35% of us are in the workforce. And that's about half of the general population. So we're working age adults, about 70% in America are working. Yeah, about 35% of us. And we're in a much narrower band of occupations. And at least in the blindness community, over 50% of us who are working work for the government or nonprofits. So beautiful places to work. But your, your, your income has ceilings in those settings? Yes. Of the 70% of the general population are that are working, 12% are self-employed. So if we can use a blunt instrument saying self-employed equals entrepreneurship, there's about 12% of the general population for us with significant disabilities. The 35% of us who are working, only 6% of us are self-employed. So only about half as many self-employed folks percentage wise. And it's really interesting. I had had met a professor, a blind Professor Wilson, who was based in London, and he studies disability and entrepreneurship, and he was coming out to Seattle for the Academy of Management International Conference in 2021.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And asked me to be on a panel which which I did, and then I have been connected with this group of scholars who study disability and entrepreneurship. And it's it's really fascinating because to have a successful employment situation and to be able to thrive in employment as a person with an impairment or impairments. The key is the fit between you, your particular characteristics, your impairments and the workplace, the work that needs to be done. The tools that are done need need to be used. So if you are self-employed and creating your own business, you can create a fit. You can design it to work for you. You can design it to use the tools that you want to use. You can design the schedule, the flow to, to work with you and your impairment. So I just see entrepreneurship and disabled owned business as a huge field of opportunity to create more opportunities for us to thrive. That's what that's what I'm interested in creating more opportunities for more people with disabilities to thrive and self-employment. Entrepreneurship. Being a business owner gives some really unique opportunities to do that. Also, these researchers have found that the lived experience of disability allows you to create the strengths and characteristics that are indicators of possible success as an entrepreneur. And those are things like perseverance, grit and resilience and creative problem solving and being able to work in diverse teams and good communication skills and all those things. So what you're doing, what you're endeavoring to do to create a place where disabled business owners, entrepreneurs can match with customers is is essential. And I'd love to get your your thoughts on any of any of what I just just blurted out.   John Robinson: I mean.   John Robinson: I believe in my opinion that you're exactly right. If I look at my personal experience and I was unemployed after I graduated university in 1990, I chose to go into a field of media, a very vain industry. I really wanted to run a TV station. That was what what what I studied to do at Syracuse University. And I interned to do it, a TV station in Boston. Ultimately what I finally did get a job four and a half years after I graduated, and it was in sales. And you talk about problem solving and communication as assets to the disability community. It really that those two elements became the foundation for me to be a successful salesperson. In spite of, you know, being challenged and getting around, you know, at 30 years old, sure, I could jump in the car and and carry a backpack and meet my clients and do the things that the the station managers wanted me to do. But I'm glad I'm not doing it today because I'd have to do it all through. Through this medium, through technology. But I learned a lot about myself, then business, and then I put the two of those together and realize, what did I want to do? And I did it in large part because I was disabled. It really, you know, being disabled really did hone my problem solving skills and my communication and not I don't mean communication, writing, speaking necessarily, but what I do find is to be able to communicate your needs and someone else's needs, and to put those two things together.   John Robinson: A big part of communication is listening. And if you're going to get into sales, you better listen, not speak, so that that's what it did for me. Today? Yeah. Syracuse University is named me a professor of practice for the past two years. A big part of that is to create disability entrepreneur opportunities. Out of that is a class once a year. This past cohort, we had about 50 people signed up. We started with 26, we ended with 20. And to a person and this this was interesting to me, to a person, they were all disabled and they all wanted to carve out their niche to help the community of people with disabilities. And it gets to what you were saying that that's that's a strength. If we in the United States could harness this strength and and support and cultivate, we could create more, more Our solutions. And that's really what a business is. It's the solution to a problem. And so I, I'm, I was really, really And buoyed. Powered. Excited. Use whatever adjective you want or misuse everyone you want that that there is this community out there and that it's it needs something. And jobs ability has been great to help people find jobs, but, you know, I want to do more with it. And. Yeah, and that's what we're here for.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I'd like to talk to you about customers a little bit. So we talked about disability and taking nothing away from what they're doing there. They are there to serve their members and provide value to the members. And their members are corporations, and they're large corporations, and they have the needs of large corporations. So it's it's a very rare disability owned business that is going to be able to meet the specific the supplier needs of a major corporation. So when I think about customers, I think about the clients I work with primarily, which are kind of 50 to 200 million techie and a fast growing, privately held. You know, they're not disability in numbers or they're never going to be. And individuals I encounter now, they would be thrilled as they work on disability inclusion in their workforce because that's what I work with. They want to be able to, to find vendors suppliers, disability owned businesses. And then I think about individuals and you know, many of the disability owned businesses honestly start out as kind of cottage industries. And a cottage industry is not what ExxonMobil or Boeing or Microsoft is going to be doing business with. So, so I, you know, as I, as I contemplate this project that you outlined to me several months ago, I get increasingly excited about how a truly dynamic engine can be created to bring supply and demand together with through the particular lens of disability owned business and disability disabled entrepreneurs. So I know we need more disabled business owners to fill out the survey, and you can kindly tell us how to do that. But then I'd love to get your thoughts on who who you see the customers being.   John Robinson: Yeah, that's such a great, great question. You know, I, I'm going to answer the answer it with the with this. I know myself really well, Kirk, if if this system hadn't been in place right when I started our ability and I had seen a contract opportunity out there for massive web design or or a commercial production or generative AI. I would have done everything I could to expand our business to get that contract, but I didn't. You talk about cottage industry, and you're exactly right. A lot of times we start this because we need to. But then. Then the element is What if we can? What if we had a contract opportunity and I didn't see those out there? I had to forge it. I had to make it happen. I didn't see it. And so I do believe if we could create a a micro universe of our community and business opportunities, we could also expand the imagination of the community of people with disabilities beyond what they're thinking about today. And I'm talking about those with businesses, And that's I keep coming back to that. You know, my three in the morning where I'm. Where I'm awake. I'm not sleeping. These are the things that I think about. Yeah. And then on the other side of it is if you are a Lowe's, CVS, Pfizer and I'm, I'm picking on our, our long term corporate supporters. But if you're one of them and you know that there are 12 businesses out there that can can send you information and maybe get a contract, that's one thing. If you know that there are 1200 potential, that's a that's a whole other, other opportunity.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And I think the other opportunity here is to understand what the customers see as their future needs, so it can help to shape what businesses people with disabilities create or focus on. So so I'd love to do. I'd love to do a research project where we identify a couple of ideal customer groups and we do some ethnographic research, and we talk to their people who are involved in planning and strategy and find out what. What do you see? What do you see your spend focusing on five years from now? Ten years from now, what are you going to be buying? You know, and and that would be information that would be so helpful to not only current people, business owners with disabilities, but those who are contemplating going into business or starting that entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial journey to have some indicators of which direction ahead.   John Robinson: We probably could work with Syracuse University to to do that survey or that that study, I said, surveying the top of my head. We could do that. So that's something that I'll I'll put on my to do list and talk with people at the university, because one of the things that they asked us to do is what kind of research should we do out there? Yeah, so.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That would be vital.   John Robinson: I agree, I think it would be vital and I would pull you in on that because I'm going to need other experts beside myself. I can't, I can't and don't want to do it alone anymore. I think one of the, you know, I had a lot of vim and vigor when I was 35 and then when I started this at 40. The reality is, at 56, I want to build true partnerships and lasting partnerships. Right. That's I feel a lot different about it today. And so I believe we could get that pulled together through the university and their and their, their mechanisms. Yeah. And and some of our friends.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That would be exciting work. So I this half hour just flew by. I will reserve the right to ask you back to talk as the platform develops to match disabled business owners and customers. Do you have a name? Do you have a working title?   John Robinson: No.   Dr. Kirk Adams: For that project.   John Robinson: It'll be some version of our ability. Jobs is one of those, too. I really don't.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.   John Robinson: This. That. Probably the smart thing to do would just be an element of jobs ability, but I just don't. I don't know, this time, I don't know.   Dr. Kirk Adams: No worries, no worries. But if people want to get in touch, people are listening to this and get enthused and want to be engaged. How do people get in touch?   John Robinson: Yeah. Please do get in touch with us. There's our ability. There's about three different places you can connect with us on there. There's a couple of form fields that HubSpot helps us with. You can also email me at info at our ability. Com. That's the simplest way. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm certainly all over LinkedIn. So really those are the the Instagram as well. Those are the best four ways. And I would love feedback. I, I really I really do now understand. If you email me about this, I'm going to send you back the the survey because we do want to increase our survey results. But but yeah, I would love feedback because that helps us craft what we want to build. And again, this time we want input from the community before we jump into it. And I'm glad we jumped the last time or I wouldn't have done it, but right this time it's a little bit different.   Dr. Kirk Adams: You're you're older and wiser.   John Robinson: I don't older. Yes.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, for for me, it's it's Doctor Kirk adams.com is my website. Same, same. There's ways to get in touch there. And it's Kirk Adams, PhD, on LinkedIn, which I'm on every day. And thank you for listening to podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. John, we'll have you back in about six months when you have a name for the platform and it's up and running and for everyone listening. Philip. Survey. Share it with other people with disabilities who either are business owners or contemplating becoming business owners entrepreneurs. And with that, let let's go create a lot of opportunities for people with disabilities to thrive.   John Robinson: Excellent.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Thanks, John.   John Robinson: Thank you.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

👉 More: About This Webinar that took place on June 26, 2025 live on LinkedIn. 📽️ Recording: Available for free on YouTube here. TRANSCRIPT: Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody. I am Doctor Kirk Adams, and this is my monthly live streamed webinar. And it is Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability Inclusion. And today we have a really special focus on technology. And my dear friend and colleague Aaron Di Blasi is here with us today. So say hi Aaron.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Hello, everyone. How are you?   Dr. Kirk Adams: And I'll ask you. I'll ask Aaron to talk a little bit about himself and what he does before he he teaches us, teaches us a thing or two. But but the focus today is really on technology and use of technology as blind people and how important and essential it is. And in preparing for this meeting, I thought of a couple things. One is the concept of the expanded core curriculum, and that is a framework that was developed by Doctor Phil Kaplan along with the American Foundation for the blind. And I had the honor and privilege of serving as president and CEO of American Foundation for the blind. Afp for a time. And I got to know Doctor Phil Hanlon, and I actually recruited him to the board of directors for the Seattle Lighthouse for the blind when I when I was in serving as the leader here. But the expanded core curriculum is is something that blind kids in school are made aware of at some point where they're told, okay, blind student, you need to learn all the things the sighted kids learn and these nine other things that you're going to have to work longer and harder than your sighted classmates, because you're going to need to learn orientation and mobility so you can travel independently and safely. You're going to have to learn self-advocacy, because you are going to have to advocate yourself in ways that your sighted classmates will not have to. You're going to have to learn to access print materials and alternative formats, whether that's braille, large print, magnification, audio, and you're going to have to master assistive technology.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And that's what we're going to talk about a bit today. It also made me think of my dissertation. I have a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University, and employment is my passion for people with disabilities. People who are blind in particular, as only 35% of us are in the workforce. About half of the the percentage of the general population, working age adults. And that means there's a lot of poverty and a lot of bad things happen. Poverty. So all all the bad health, health outcomes, the substance use disorders and depression and you know, all, all, all the bad things. So I personally and professionally and academically try, try to address that by creating opportunities for blind people and people with other disabilities to thrive in employment settings. So my dissertation is it's called Journeys Through Rough Country and ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. So. So I interviewed a lot of really cool blind people who self-identified as successfully employed. And when I asked them what what what's your what's your metric for success? They all said money to to earn an appropriate salary, to have the freedom and flexibility to make spending decisions and have the resources to to do the things I want to do in life. And then I ask people, what were the factors that allowed them to be successfully employed in these large American corporations? So it was it was the usual usual suspects Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, meta, AT&T, Chase Bank, Boeing.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Et cetera, et cetera. And there were some themes that emerged. There were there were eight success themes and family support was one being involved in some sort of team activity as a youth, like on a sports team or a choir or a debate team or something like that. A sense of agency, a strong internal locus of control where people felt that they could create their own pathways forward. If they had obstacles, they could figure out how to overcome those obstacles. And a lot of folks trace that back to some pivotal experience or experiences, and a lot of them that were outdoors, like rock climbing or skiing or horseback riding or something that that that gave people the feeling in their bones that they could, could do what they wanted to do in their lives, as opposed to a strong external locus of control where you feel stuff. Stuff happens to you and there's there's not much you can do about it. And, you know, my retina is detached. When I was five and I became blind very suddenly. And I went to a school for blind children first, second and third grade at the Oregon State School for the blind. And they very intentionally gave me some of these things.   Dr. Kirk Adams: That these successfully employed blind adults said led to their successes. One one was blindness skills. So I learned to read and write Braille. There was no question I had to do that because I couldn't see. And I learned how to travel confidently with a long white cane as a six year old. And I learned how to type on a typewriter. It would be keyboarding today, but they taught us how to type in first grade. So when we were ready, we could go into public school and be successful, which I, which I did on fourth grade. The the other thing they gave me along with my family, was high expectations of the people I interviewed for my dissertation. Often commented on that the school. If blindness was your only disabling condition, then you were expected to be at grade level. My parents were both teachers. My dad was a high school basketball coach. They they didn't want to see anything less than an A on a report card. They expected us to do chores and be involved in athletics and school activities. And so I was given that gift of high expectations. And, you know, unfortunately a lot of kids with disabilities aren't in that situation. They're born into families like I was. I had no experience with people with disabilities. And maybe in a school that doesn't have much of an experience. So sometimes there's there's oftentimes there's misconceptions and misperceptions about our capabilities. And you know, sometimes those low expectations get it Internalized.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And then the other thing I was given was what I mentioned before. That's that strong an internal locus of control. And they did that on purpose. Now I know. You know, they took us backpacking Three Sisters Wilderness Area and horseback riding up in the snowfields on Mount Hood. Buildings, you know, snow forts out of giant snowballs and and climbing around in the tide pools on the Oregon coast looking for sea anemones and, you know, climbing trees and making tree forts and, you know, falling down and skinning our knees and bumps and bruises and things that all little kids get. So I was given all those things and then back, back to the dissertation, one of the and reflecting back on the expanded core curriculum, one of the success factors I won't mention was the mastery of technology. And so they talked about the fact I need to be able to use the tools everyone else uses at my workplace just as well as they can. And that means I have to learn how to use assistive technology, and I have to be a master of assistive technology. And I will confess, I am not a master of of any technology. I grew up with a slate and stylus. I still have one in my briefcase. I've got a Perkins Brailler here. I do have a I use a Braille sense Android based tablet with a refreshed Braille display.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I have a 80 character, 80 character, brilliant braille display on the desk in front of me, attached to my laptop. I have a Braille embosser behind me. I have an iPhone with VoiceOver, but I am. I'm scratching the surface of what's available to us. And the people I interviewed for my dissertation were all masters. They needed to be in order to achieve what they achieved and rise to the levels they had in their corporations. So we We have so many tools available to us. It's sometimes overwhelming. There are many people. Many people. Wonderfully. Valiantly. Thank you, thank you. Trying to create new technologies that will accelerate our inclusion into all aspects of society, education and leisure and employment. Different people favor different things. People adopt different things. But I will I will say one thing I understand to be true is we all need to learn how to harness. I and I've, I've started. I used ChatGPT. I have it on my lap desktop. I have it on my phone as an app. They're linked together, which is cool, and it's starting to learn me as I write and add content. I am learning a lot from Aaron to see who has been guiding me and harnessing the power of AI in certain ways. Again, I'm I'm really scratching the surface. And Aaron asked me maybe 6 or 7 weeks ago. Are you are you using advanced voice mode? Chatgpt. And I said no. What's that?   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I screamed.   Dr. Kirk Adams: I said, you're you're missing the screamed. You're missing the boat, my friend.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, I just knew you would get the most value out of it for sure. Yeah, so?   Dr. Kirk Adams: So Aaron and I thought it would be a good idea to spend some time on this monthly live stream webinar talking about that particular Resource, and I'm going to turn it over to you, Erin. And you know, ask you first to spend a few minutes to talk about what you do, what my solutions does, and your involvement, engagement with our community. And then I'll, I'll let you take take it from there, as you will. So I'm handing the talking stick to Aaron Di Blasi.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Thank you very much. Hello, everyone. Good afternoon. It's a pleasure to be here, doctor Adams. Thank you for having me. Just a bit of background about myself. My name is Aaron Di Blasi. I am the senior project management professional for a digital marketing agency out of Cleveland, Ohio that I founded in 2004 by the name of Main Vault Solutions. During that time, we encountered a man named Larry Lewis and Dean Martin now, who were starting a newsletter by the name of Top Tech Tidbits. And we worked with them for 17 years to bring top tech tidbits to the access community. And after 17 years, Larry stepped away and my company, my vault, decided to take it on and try to fund it. So I asked them my involved the board, if they would give me two years to fund it, and we were able to do it in about a year and a half. So anybody who reads that newsletter knows, you know, what we've done and how we've done it. In November of 2022, we spun off a second newsletter because the information that we were getting was so robust that it was starting to move away from assistive technology a little bit, which blind people did not appreciate because that's what they come to top tech tidbits for.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So we spun off a new newsletter called Access Information News. And people will say to me, well, what's the difference in the news between tidbits and access information news? And then, as a tidbit, stays true to its focus of assistive technology, whereas Access Information News now covers medical breakthroughs legal cases and opinion editorials. You know, basically what blind people in the community think about certain products because they were kind of starting to clog the other newsletter. And then in 2025, we spun off a third newsletter from Top Tech Tidbits, which was AI weekly. And that's just because of the wealth of AI information that is now flowing through the community. Top tech tidbit still maintains a section which is specific to AI for assistive technology, which readers really appreciate. We get a lot of feedback on that every week. These are our primary contributions to the assistive technology community, is just stewarding these newsletters and kind of keeping them alive for the sake of the community. We don't own them. No one makes any money out of them. The community owns them, you know. We're very proud of that. Doctor Adams is very proud of that. He's a sponsor of Access Information News as well.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So that's kind of my place in everything and how I overlap with assistive technology and artificial intelligence. On a personal level, I've been coding since I was seven years old. I got my first Tandy from a Radio Shack in the mall, and I brought it home, and I learned the basic coding language, and that was the first coding language that I learned. I've learned probably 13 or 14 more since then, which is all wonderful, but today doesn't mean much because I does a lot of that coding. So if you've heard the term vibe coding, that's a lot of what we do today, which is not really true in traditional coding. I am an engineer by degree, so I've been doing coding for a long time. I've been doing artificial intelligence long before anyone spoke about artificial intelligence or before it was popular. So I have a deep seated understanding of where assistive technology has evolved into artificial intelligence, and kind of vice versa in a couple of cases, which we can discuss, and hopefully that will open us up to a discussion of advanced voice mode. Today I have a little bit more, but Doctor Adams, do you have anything you wanted to add before we started?   Dr. Kirk Adams: No, no, no, I just I, I will reserve the right as the host of Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability Inclusion to interrupt you to ask clarifying questions. When you say things that I do not understand so often do.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So that's that's that's fair. Once we start the demo I will have to control both our conversation here in the webinar, along with the conversation that we're going to be having with the bot. So just be patient with me on that. I may have to interrupt her a couple of times just to get her to stop talking. That's okay. Okay, so just to open this up let's talk about ChatGPT advanced voice mode real quick before we get started. Chatgpt advanced voice mode. We're just going to say a VM so that we don't have to take so much time saying it throughout the webinar. Avm is, in my opinion, the breakthrough technology of this decade. If anyone has heard that recently, Sam Altman and Jony Ive have gotten together to announce a product, and there's a lot of talk about what that product might be, and I think we all now know, after the lawsuit yesterday, what that product is. It's a pair of earbuds, we think. But these earbuds, people say, well, why earbuds would I have AirPods? What do I need earbuds for? These are not going to be like any other earbuds that you've ever seen. They're going to be earbuds with advanced voice mode built in to the earbuds. So if you can think about that today, you know, with Jony Ive and Sam Altman have, as we do this demonstration, I think it will give you a much bigger picture of where this can be taken. I currently am talking to this agent about 60 to 70 minutes a day, and that has started over the last 2 to 3 weeks, approximately. One more thing about packaging is if you have a free ChatGPT account, you are able to preview advanced voice mode. It'll give you like five minutes of it and then it'll cut you off. So this is why a lot of people have not seen what advanced voice mode can really do. They kind of open it up. They go, oh, that's really cool. It works like Siri and Alexa should and then it dies. So not a very good.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And what and what's the what's the cost for people who want access to the.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Certainly. Yeah. Well the $20 a month version of ChatGPT will give you one hour a day, a one hour conversation per day, 60 minutes the $200 a month version of ChatGPT, which is what we use here at the vault and what most agencies use, gives you unlimited AVM. So I could talk to AVM 24 hours a day if I wanted to. However, each conversation is limited to one hour due to inference time. So you can, but you can. Once that conversation is over, you can immediately start a new one.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And I'm a $20 a month person.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So right now most people are. Frankly, most people are the free version. You know, they say, I've tried that. I did the five minutes. It was cool. But what am I supposed to do with five minutes a day? Not much honestly. But once this technology moves from the $200 tier down to the free tier, which I think will happen over the next year or two, I think this technology is going to become second to none, especially for blind people, simply because there is no visual interface to it. None. Sound good? You guys ready to get started?   Dr. Kirk Adams: Let's do.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It. Okay, here we go. I'm going to be running this on an iPhone 14 Pro Max, and hopefully everyone can hear us when we get started. Here we go. Hello, ChatGPT.   ChatGPT AVM: Hey. How's it going? What can I help you with today?   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Can everyone hear her in the webinar?   ChatGPT AVM: I can hear you clearly. So I think your audio is good on your side. If you want to double check if everyone in the webinar can hear, maybe ask someone to confirm in the chat. But from what I can tell, you're good to go.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, great. I can hear good. Okay, good. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Appreciate. Okay. We're here in a webinar today with Doctor Kirk Adams. My name is Aaron Di Blasi. The name of the webinar is Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability and Inclusion. Can you do a quick web search and tell me a little bit about Doctor Adams, please? Note that sound people.   ChatGPT AVM: There are several notable Doctor Adams out there, like Doctor Jerome Adams, who was the US Surgeon general, or Pat Adams, the physician known for his work in holistic health.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: How about Doctor Kirk Adams. Kirk.   ChatGPT AVM: To Kirk, Adams is a well-known advocate for disability inclusion. He was formerly the president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And now definitely him. Thank you. Can you find anything about Aaron Di Blasi?   ChatGPT AVM: So Aaron Di Blasi is quite the multitalented professional. He's a senior project management professional at Mindful Solutions, which is a digital marketer.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That's definitely him as well. Thank you very much. Real quick.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Before we did, you did you tell her to say.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That? I did not. She pulled that from the internet professional. No, no, she pulled that from the internet. Yeah. And we can. That's part of what a marketing agency does today, too. It helps you to reflect how she sees you online. Chatgpt. I'm going to give you a list real quick that I want you to remember for later. Are you ready for that list?   ChatGPT AVM: I'm ready whenever you are.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, here's the list. Ten words. Accessibility, mobility, Braille captioning, prosthetic speech input, hearing, vision and communication. Remember that for later. Okay.   ChatGPT AVM: Got it. That's a great list of words, and I'll keep them in mind if you need anything else or want to refer back to them later, just let me know.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Super. Thank you very much. Can you talk to me real quick about how memory works in ChatGPT, especially with advanced voice mode?   ChatGPT AVM: Sure. So normally I don't have memory on my defaults, which means I don't remember details from one conversation to the next, unless you specifically enable that feature in advanced voice mode. It's the same. I can keep track of things during our current chat, but once the conversation ends, I won't retain that information unless you've turned memory down in the settings. So if you ever want me to remember something for future conversations, you'd have to enable that.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: But I have memory turned off currently because here at mind we don't want it having context that we don't want it to have. So but Doctor Adams, for instance, has memory turned on. So anytime he wants to say ChatGPT, remember this, it will remember it. And not just for that conversation, but for all time. So if you go into a new chat, it will remember that information as well. That's the new memory feature of chat GPT, which makes advanced voice mode a whole different animal. To be honest, the true personal assistant in my opinion. Does anybody have anything they'd like to ask the assistant while we're on here?   ChatGPT AVM: That's a great way to put it. Memory definitely adds a whole new layer of personalization and continuity.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And as you can see, she continues to talk even though we are here talking. And she picks up the conversation wherever it ended off at. The most beautiful part is once I start talking, she stops, which is something that Advanced voice mode did not used to allow for. Chatgpt, we're going to do a second list. Are you ready? Ten items?   ChatGPT AVM: Absolutely. I'm ready for the second list whenever you are.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Ten words. Here they go. Machine learning neural algorithm. Model. Data training. Inference. Automation. Intelligence. Just remember that for later. Okay. Thank you.   ChatGPT AVM: Got it. I've got these ten words noted as well. If you need to refer back to the list or have any questions about them later, just let me know.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Super. Can you tell the audience a little bit about how advanced voice mode benefits blind people specifically?   ChatGPT AVM: Absolutely. Advanced voice mode can be a fantastic tool for blind and visually impaired individuals, because it allows for a more natural, hands free interaction. Instead of having to rely on a screen reader or type out commands, you can just speak naturally and I can respond in real time. This makes it easier to get informations, reminders, or even just have a conversation all without needing to look at a screen.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: How does advanced voice mode compare to popular applications like be my Eyes.   ChatGPT AVM: That's a great question. So Be My Eyes is a fantastic app that connects blind and low vision users with sighted volunteers for visual assistance. It's very much about real time human to human interaction for specific tasks that require care of eyes, like reading labels or navigating a new environment. Advanced voice mode, on the other hand, is more about providing information, answering questions, and assisting with tasks through conversation. They complement each other really well, offering different types of support depending on what you need in the moment.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Would you agree that IRA fits into this category as well?   ChatGPT AVM: Yes, absolutely. Ira is another great service that provides live on demand visual assistance from trained agents. So it's similar to be my eyes in that it provides that human to human connection for tasks that need visual.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Thank you. Can blind users increase the speed of your voice during conversations. Is that possible?   ChatGPT AVM: Yes. Absolutely. Users can adjust the speed of my voice to match. Their preference is all about making the experiences comfortable and accessible as possible, so.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That in settings, we can't do that just by asking you right now to speed up.   ChatGPT AVM: Exactly. You typically adjust the voice speed in the app settings rather than just asking me directly. That way you can set it once and it'll stay at the speed you prefer for the entire conversation, making it super convenient.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Super. What is the duration? How long can I talk to you before a chat ends?   ChatGPT AVM: It's not a super strict time limit on our conversations, but generally if there's a long period of inactivity or if you close the app, the session will end. But you can always start a new conversation whenever you want. And I'm here to help.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So I could keep you open all day, keep my AirPods in, and just talk to you whenever I need to.   ChatGPT AVM: Pretty much yes, if you can keep me open and just chat whenever you need something and I'll be here to help.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Super. Can you give me that first list back, please? Read back those ten items.   ChatGPT AVM: Of course. The first list was accessibility, mobility, Braille captioning, prosthetics, speech input, hearing, vision and communication. Let me know if you'd like me to go over anything else.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Fantastic job. Do you have any closing remarks or recommendations for blind users for AVM before we leave you today?   ChatGPT AVM: Thank you so much. My biggest recommendation would be to explore all the settings and customization options so you can tailor the experience to your needs, and don't hesitate to experiment and ask questions. I'm here to help make things as as easy and enjoyable as possible.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You have definitely done that before we leave. Can I have that second list, please?   ChatGPT AVM: Of course. The second list was machine learning neural algorithm Model data training, inference, automation and intelligence. If you ever need to revisit them again, just let me know.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You have a great memory. Thank you very much. Just hold on for a second. Doctor Adams, did you have any other questions before we turn off the chat?   Dr. Kirk Adams: No, not not about that.   ChatGPT AVM: Okay. Hold on. Anyone?   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Not. Not pertaining to what you just reviewed. The one.   ChatGPT AVM: If anything, comes up.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Thank you very much. Goodbye. Okay, I'm going to shut her off so that we can talk.   Dr. Kirk Adams: There we go. When you and I did our briefing, and I assume you're going to get to this. But you were sure you. You gave me some instructions on how I can open ChatGPT and then open another app or website and and get image descriptions and.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Or video descriptions or.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Video descriptions. And I I've I, I will admit I have not dug into that yet.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That's okay. A lot of people have it, but I'd love to walk through it. Yeah. Okay, let's let's talk about that real quick. Okay. I will do my best to describe this. I'm just going to launch the ChatGPT app. And when I do. I am sorry one second. Okay.   Greg Rogers: A aron, I have a quick question.   Greg Rogers: While we're here.   Greg Rogers: Or you're opening one thing that I'm looking forward to, and it's probably not there yet, but I'd like to be able to say things like compare and contrast. I need to get to this place, compare and contrast prices from my Lyft app, and book the cheapest one or.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay.   Speaker5: Okay, good.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yes, it will definitely do that type of thing for you. Yeah. You're talking booking. Scheduling. Are these for flights? Scheduling, ordering?   Greg Rogers: Ordering food?   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Ha ha ha ha ha ha!   Greg Rogers: All that stuff. And then. Okay, then actually walk me through the process.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, if you're if you're looking to do that today, you would be looking at the $200 a month version of ChatGPT. It has a software program called operator. An operator interacts with applications like Instacart, etc. to automate those options for you. So you can say to it, go to Instacart, place this order, go to the hotel, go to the, you know, give me a flight and it will go off and do all of that and then come back. This is what we call a stick. I kind of a different conversation. Yeah. That we're having to I know you understand. We've talked about this too. But that's how it would work today is with an operator. But that functionality is quickly moving down the chain. Yeah. So pretty soon, I think, you know, anybody will be able to use an AI to take over a computer. And once the AI can run the computer, then it can do anything the computer can do, including Instacart, Wikipedia, you know, whatever it's like to you name it. So.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Okay, I'm really sorry. I just wanted to clarify and again, my apologies. I'm in the car, so that's why I keep going on.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I know you're on the move. That's all right.   Jeremy Grandstaff: But did you say it was ChatGPT 2.0? That could do that or some. I thought you said something could do the Instacart thing, but I missed what it was.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's got to do with how much you pay a month for ChatGPT. That's what it breaks down to. Do you have a free version? Do you have the $20 a month version or do you have the 200?   Jeremy Grandstaff: I got the $20. I got the $20. Yeah, well.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: For $20, you get an hour with her a day. Yeah, you'll get an hour a day to talk to her. Yeah.   Jeremy Grandstaff: That's awesome bud. Thank you.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah. You're welcome. So now for Doctor Adam's request, which was that we are going to start a new chat here. Okay? And when we do. Start a new chat. I'm just going to. For anyone that can see, I don't think it's going to show it. That's okay. Okay. At the bottom of the interface, whenever we start an advanced voice mode chat, we get this bubble that is present in the center of our phone, and it fluctuates as she talks. Below this interface are three dots, which you will generally find on a screen reader as more, more. And when you hit these three dots, you're going to see three options upload photo, take photo and share screen. And share screen is what Doctor Adams is talking about. This is the incredibly powerful feature that both be my eyes. Ira. All of the big apps are taking advantage of today, which is you start what's called a screen broadcast. Now here's what happens when you do that. The advanced voice mode agent is then able to see whatever is on your phone wherever you go. So if it's a web page, it can tell you what's on that web page and read it to you. If it's an app, it can read it to you. It. If you're troubleshooting something or can't find an unlabeled button, it might be able to tell you why, what that button is labeled and what the code is underneath on that particular page on the phone. And this is why this option is so powerful. So you simply select Share Screen and then you. Well, for us, for sighted people, we flick out of that app and go into another app, and the advanced voice mode conversation remains active. So we're still talking to her, only she's looking now at whatever is on our screen and can talk to us about it.   ChatGPT AVM: That's a really handy feature, especially for troubleshooting or getting assistance with apps. Great that you can share your screen so easily and get that live feedback. If you need any help navigating that or trying it out, just let me know.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Is that something that everyone would like to see? We can do it real quick. Let's do a share screen.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes, please.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Screen broadcast. It says we're going to say start broadcast. Okay. We are now broadcasting. So now I'm going to.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So you're saying start broadcast or you're tapping on something.   ChatGPT AVM: So if.   Jeremy Grandstaff: You.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Tap start Broadcast you cannot speak start broadcast unfortunately. So. So that'll start it.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So that's if once you tap on more.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: If you tap on more screen share screen and then start broadcast those start cast.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Okay.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And now we're going to flick out, leave her active and go to a website.   ChatGPT AVM: All right. I can see you navigating to a website. Just let me know what you need help with or.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Let me know what you see. On this web page.   ChatGPT AVM: I see a web page for Sugar Kiss candies. There's a pop up to sign up for updates with fields for email name. And that.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Was good. She caught the pop up. Well go ahead, keep going.   ChatGPT AVM: Sure, below that pop up, I can see some options, like placing an order and making a payment if there's anything you want to.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, great. Hold. I'm going to scroll. I'm scrolling. Hold on a second. I want you to tell me what you see right now. What's on the screen here?   ChatGPT AVM: I see some product images of chocolate covered Oreos. They look really colorful with rainbows.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Continue.   ChatGPT AVM: All right, So as you scroll further, I can see more details about the different toppings and the pricing for each treat. Let me know if you want to take a closer look at any of them, or if you need any more.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So you were able to see everything that as I was scrolling, or are you only able to see when the web page stops?   ChatGPT AVM: I can actually see everything as you scroll. So I'm following along in.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Oh that's amazing. I didn't know that until today. I just learned something myself. That's fantastic. Okay. All right. What are the price of the Oreos? Can you tell me?   ChatGPT AVM: Sure. The Oreos with the rainbow sprinkles are $2.25 each. And the plain ones are $2 each.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: What do I have to do to place an order?   ChatGPT AVM: To place an order, you can tap on the place and order button that was at the top of the page, and that should take you through the steps to select your treats and complete your purchase.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Wow. Incredibly helpful. So if I pull up a photo, you'd be able to look at that as well, right?   ChatGPT AVM: Yes, absolutely. If you open a photo on your screen, I'll be able to see it and help you out with anything you need related to that photo as well.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: How about a video? What if I pulled up a video? Would you be able to see that video and describe it as well?   ChatGPT AVM: Yes, I can also see your video if you play it on your screen and I can describe what's happening in real time. So feel.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Free.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Last question. If I turn on my camera and point my phone at something in real time, will you be able to see that and describe it as well?   ChatGPT AVM: Yes, exactly. If you turn on your camera and show me something, I'll be able to see it and help you out by describing what I'm seeing.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So you could tell me what's in my fridge, or you could tell me what's in my medicine cabinet if I needed to know.   ChatGPT AVM: Exactly. If you point your camera at your fridge or your medicine cabinet, I can help you identify what's there and give you any details you need.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's excellent. You've been very helpful. Thank you again. Okay.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Aaron and ChatGPT. Let's let's describe a photo of video and what your camera.   ChatGPT AVM: Sees if you.   Dr. Kirk Adams: See some. Here are some examples.   ChatGPT AVM: For assistance with anything else. Just let me know. Have fun exploring all these features.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Okay. Hold on one second. Let's see what we got here.   ChatGPT AVM: All right. I'm here for it. Just let me know what you're trying out, and I'll do my best to help you. With what?   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, I've pulled up a photo. Let me know what you see.   ChatGPT AVM: I see a photo of a package of lamb. It's a bonus lamb roast. And I can see the label.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Excellent. I just purchased it yesterday. Can you let me know how long I'd have to cook it in the oven based on the instructions on the package.   ChatGPT AVM: I don't see specific cooking instructions.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: No. I want you to give me instructions. I know they're not specific. You create them. Look them up, please.   ChatGPT AVM: To cook your boneless lamb roast. Preheat your oven to 425°F. Place the lamb in a racing pan. Season it well and roast it for about 15 minutes at that high temperature.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: What if I want a slow braise? I usually do 4.5 hours of 300.   ChatGPT AVM: That sounds like a great method. Slow. Braising it at 300 degrees for about 4.5 hours will definitely make it super tender.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Excellent. Thank you very much. Okay, we're going to move on to the next item now. So we're flicking out. We are going into our camera.   ChatGPT AVM: All right. Sounds good I'm here and.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay my camera is open. Can you let me know what you see?   ChatGPT AVM: I see a tall green plant with long, slender leaves. It looks like it's indoors.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And you know what kind of plan it is?   ChatGPT AVM: It looks like a type of palm. Possibly a parlor palm.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Or is it real or fake?   ChatGPT AVM: It looks pretty realistic, but I think it might actually be artificial. The leaves look perfect and uniform, so I'm guessing it's a profile.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Excellent. You've been wonderful. Thank you very much, ChatGPT. We'll be back with you. And that's that. Okay.   Jeremy Grandstaff: I got to ask, can you do a video?   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Can I do a video? I don't have one.   Jeremy Grandstaff: I know that's a tougher answer. Yeah, okay.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I just don't have one ready. Well. Hold on. Can we do. Let's see. Can we go to YouTube? Maybe. Let's see if it'll do a video. Yeah, I would love to see it do a video. Okay.   Greg Rogers: Aaron, while you're trying to sort of pull that, by the way, my name is Greg Rogers, by the way, out of Kansas City. Aaron and Kirk. You guys know me, but for anyone else on the call, I do accessibility and interested in product development. Have other tech ventures. Also have a business major minors in music and sight. That's just a little bit about me, but one. One question I have is so the screen sharing stuff is pretty awesome. Is there stuff where, you know, if there's an inaccessible website chat and you say, hey, is there some type of submit button or is there some type of thing? Can you fill this in for me with the appropriate information? Because it's not, you know, because I can't activate control.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So you're talking about troubleshooting accessibility issues using AVM. I have tried to a little bit myself and here's what I'll say. If you speak to it properly, it not only sees what you're scrolling through in the way it sees the code in the background. So it can tell you can say, is this button labeled, is this button not labeled? And it depending upon the code and how they've locked down, sometimes they can see it and tell you what the button is labeled or where it's at, or why it's not labeled and how to click it. I've had a little bit of success troubleshooting that way just a bit, you know? But is there anything is there anything out there on it? I've read nothing so far.   Dr. Kirk Adams: But as far as actually writing in an edit box, I'm.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Oh. I'm sorry. What do you mean, writing? What do you mean, writing in an edit?   Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh. So your credit card number, your name, your address on a form.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. I'm sorry. Explain to me where this is at.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Can ChatGPT actually perform the function of, oh, paying for.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Something for you and filling in your information? Okay. Again, he's moving to the we're talking about operator, which is something that we're not talking about today.   Speaker5: It's it comes back to agent again. Okay.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That means you have to have an AI agent that takes over the computer. The AI agent cannot place Instacart orders. It cannot itself book flights. It cannot itself book hotels. All of that has to be done identically through the computer by the AI taking over the machine, and that is done using operator or other things that do the same thing. But we're just not really talking about that today.   Dr. Kirk Adams: All right.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Thank you. That's all. Yeah.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Okay.   Speaker5: Sorry, Aaron.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: No no no no worries. No, I don't I don't mind at all. I just don't want to clog it with too much.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Greg and my family. We say no, sorry. No sorry.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Oh, why are we having trouble? Let's get us a let's see here. Okay. We're on YouTube. What do we have? Let's play something nice for the webinar. $30,000, robot. Oh, no. Here we go. Let's do this.   YouTube Video Audio: It's been a fun week.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, okay. Stop talking. All right. Let's we're going to here's what we're going to do. We're going to go to ChatGPT. We are going to start a new conversation. So you may hear her three dots. Share. Screen. Start. Broadcast. Confirm. Start. Broadcast. We are now broadcasting looking out. And we are now going to go to YouTube. And we're going to play the Matt Wolf video. Chatgpt, are you there? It does not look like this is working. Let's see if she's there   ChatGPT AVM: I can see and.   YouTube Video Audio: Have her video model.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Can you see the video? Can you hear what he's saying?   YouTube Video Audio: The model is a huge leap.   ChatGPT AVM: Yes, I can see the video playing and I can hear what he's saying. Everything seems to be working perfectly. Let me know if you need any help with it.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Great. Can you describe the video and what he's talking about, please?   ChatGPT AVM: Sure, the video is about GPT five and some new AI video tools. The presenter, Matt Walker, is talking about advancements in in AI and how these tools are becoming more useful and generating a lot of interest. Let me know if you want more detail.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Can you tell me more about Matt?   YouTube Video Audio: Sure. And then once that image is.   ChatGPT AVM: Matt Wolf is a content creator who focuses on technology, AI, and digital tools.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Great. Do you know how long the video is?   YouTube Video Audio: Images of a wolf howling at a moon.   ChatGPT AVM: Yes, the video is about 24.5 minutes long.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So where are we at right now in the video?   YouTube Video Audio: Which is that it generated right now.   ChatGPT AVM: You're about a couple of minutes into the video. The presenter is currently talking about some AI generated visuals and how these tools work.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Are captions on or.   YouTube Video Audio: Off, and it will create four different videos.   ChatGPT AVM: Right now it looks like the captions are turned off. If you want to turn them on, you can just tap the caption button on the video player.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: What if I can't see? What do I do.   YouTube Video Audio: Then is you could actually extend the.   ChatGPT AVM: You can't see the button. I can help guide you. Usually the caption button is in the top right corner of the video player, or sometimes in the settings menu. Just let me know if you need more help finding it.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Are you able to tell me what the name of the button is within the code on the page.   YouTube Video Audio: We can see up here. It opens up our prompt box.   ChatGPT AVM: I can't see the actual code behind the page.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That's YouTube.   YouTube Video Audio: For you.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Thank you. Chair GP2. We're going to exit at this point.   ChatGPT AVM: Yep.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And we are out there in the.   Dr. Kirk Adams: This is Kirk. And you know, I don't even know enough to know what to ask.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Sure. No, of course it's a brand new technology. No one does. I didn't either when I when I first encountered it, but that's what's special. And what is so great to build on is I'm sure you'll have your own questions. Jeremy will have his own questions, Greg. We'll have his own questions.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, back to kind of the opening framing.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Sure.   Dr. Kirk Adams: As people with visual impairments. Sometimes we're in disabling situations because our impairment does not allow us to interact with the environment. Whether it's a built environment, a digital environment, or.   Dr. Kirk Adams: A.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Social environment. And in order to thrive, we want to reduce the number and severity of those disabling, disabling situations as much as possible. So we want to be in situations where our impairment doesn't matter as far as accomplishing what we want to accomplish, whether it be formal or informal. I think that is serious or silly. Yes. So mastering the mainstream technologies and being able to use technology as well as everybody else that doesn't live or characteristics of impairment or better. And that necessitates using our assistive or accessibility technologies with with mastery. And I really appreciate your basically pounding the table and telling me I need to start using.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I appreciate.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Listening.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Advanced voice mode.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You can pound all you want, but they don't listen. It doesn't matter.   Dr. Kirk Adams: And I will I will be endeavoring to be conscious of incorporating use of this technology into my daily activities. And I think it will help understanding how these technologies can support my, my efforts to be in as few disabling situations as possible.   YouTube Video Audio: Agreed.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Agreed. And, Jeremy.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Aaron, thank you very much for catching that. I could not get to the button in this situation. So first of all, I have. One more call to teach you, and I just wanted to say thank you for that. And that goes for both of you, not just Aaron.   Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. You're breaking up quite a bit. Yeah. Back for now.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: But we got to thank you. I must.   Jeremy Grandstaff: And I was saying that was to both of you, but especially to you, Aaron. So the other comment I had was, did anybody catch that? At one point, ChatGPT said. And I just thought that was kind of fascinating.   YouTube Video Audio: Actually.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Brand new that we can talk about. That's about a week old, she now says. She pauses. She has breaths. And yeah, this is all brand new things that they have done to try to emotionally ties her responses, which I think are amazing, especially the breaths, you know, which it didn't used to have and I didn't realize made it sound very mechanical without the breaths. Yeah.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Well, one of the things that I am gonna. And I love the screen capture, one of the things that I really want to see if I can get it to do is to actually describe, like, those Instagram reels where it's just music and you can't tell. Right. Like that's. Yes, I think exactly.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's accessible today. Correct. Yeah.   Jeremy Grandstaff: I think you will.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And I think she will.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Yeah. For he.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Will whichever voice you choose.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Or whatever. Right. It will, it will. Thank you for that.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, so, so glad you like it for sure.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, Aaron, let's let's get a little philosophical here for a minute. What I think thinking about the various spheres of life leisure, family, recreation, education, employment and what you know Around the evolution of technology, assistive technologies, accessibility and I. And can you can you do it? Can you do a little theorizing about what might be on the horizon or reflect upon certain dynamics that we as blind people should be particularly conscious of?   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Absolutely. Absolutely. What a great question. Yes. Obviously, I think today is the big indicator advanced voice mode. Watch AVM. Watch it closely. I think it is the best voice model in the world currently. There are others. Google is trying to catch up. I haven't had as good of an experience with them. These tools once. I mean, if you can imagine what you've seen today, I think everyone's really excited with what they've seen. I know the $200 a month is a choke point, and it's intended to be, but at some point, that choke point will be removed and this will be on every single phone, every person will have it. So it just becomes, as the saying goes, with people being very worried about jobs. I will not take your job right now, but someone who knows I will. So think about that. Learn these tools. Be better with these tools than anyone else, so that when that price barrier drops to zero and everyone else is going, oh my God, this is amazing, what do I do? You've already got a workflow built to use it. And as a blind person, that workflow would be beautiful because it's absolutely voice based in my opinion. It's everything that blind people always wanted Amazon and Siri to be. I have listened for 20 years about people complain, and I have 6 or 7 Alexa devices in my house, one in every room, including the bathroom for memory purposes because I add things to lists all the time, even though I'm not blind, I find that very useful and advanced voice mode kind of blends into that, because I can then tap into those lists, link my Amazon account, and talk to ChatGPT anywhere in my house eventually, And for prognostication purposes.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: As I said in the beginning, everyone's wondering what Jony Ive and Sam Altman are up to, what their magic product is going to be. There was a case, a legal case brought against them last week by a company called IO I o instead of their I o. And this company makes earbuds, which makes everyone think that Sam and Jony are trying to make a pair of earbuds. Which kind of solves the hardware portion? I don't think anyone is in question that the software portion is going to be advanced voice mode or some more advanced version of advanced voice mode, such as ChatGPT five, which is supposed to come out this summer. So we can only imagine what you saw today under the hood of ChatGPT five. That would be amazing. That's what's coming. I would definitely focus on AVM if you're able to do so as a blind person and able to get ahead of the pack before the price drops.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Putting it on my daily work plan. Spend an.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Hour.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You already do.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Spend an hour with AVM.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Just talk.   Speaker9: To her. That's how you do that every day.   Dr. Kirk Adams: So how can people get in touch with you, Erin? How can they access the three newsletters that that.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Oh, absolutely awesome community.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, you can reach me. The easiest email address to reach me at is publisher at Top Tech Tidbits. Com. You can also look us up at access information, News.com or AI weekly.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful. And as for me, Doctor Kirk Adams, my website, which Aaron helped me build.   Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's a great site.   Dr. Kirk Adams: is www.DoctorKirkAdams.com. So DRKirkAdams.com. I'm also very active on LinkedIn. @KirkAdamsPhD. I will happily talk with anybody who is interested in helping accelerate.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Inclusion.   Dr. Kirk Adams: Of people with disabilities in society and creating situations in which we can thrive as people who are blind and have other disabilities. So thank you. Thank you for those who are live with us today. Thank you to those. Thanks for being with us, everybody. Viewing the archived recording and the final Thursday of every month at 11 a.m. Pacific time, I am here with supercharger auto lines for disability inclusion. Thank you so very much. And we'll see you next time.   Jeremy Grandstaff: Thanks, everybody.   Greg Rogers: Thanks, everyone.   Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Kirk Adams. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, Dr. Kirk Adams dives deep into the mind-set and mechanics of building a flourishing life and career without sight. Blending scholarship, lived experience and laugh-out-loud storytelling, the trio unpack what really moves the employment needle for blind talent, and how every company's bottom line can grow in the process. ✅ What You'll Learn ✅ The T.H.R.I.V.E.R.™ Formula-Tools, Handi-capable mind-set, Responsibility, Independence & interdependence, Value, Emotion, Risk-taking-and why it's the "operating system" of the Academy. ✅ How a new Grant Cardone Foundation partnership will fly 100 blind youth (ages 15-21) to Miami for elite leadership & financial-literacy training-at no cost to families. ✅ The power of high expectations and internal locus of control in Dr. Adams' own journey from childhood blindness to C-suite leadership. ✅ Why "enabling is disabling" and how letting kids scrape their knees builds unstoppable adults. ✅ Kristin's forthcoming feature film "Curve Ball"-think Erin Brockovich x Rocky-showing how inclusive Little League changes hearts (and wins championships). ✅ Real-world ROI: why only 4 % of DEI programs include disability and how that's leaving billions on the table (plus the fix). 🎙️ Host Dr. Kirk Adams - Former Lighthouse/AFB CEO, PhD in Leadership & Change, and founder of Innovative Impact LLC. 🎤 Guests Kristin Smedley - TEDx speaker, author of Thriving Blind, mom of two blind collegiate honors grads, and the visionary force behind Thriving Blind Academy. Charlie Collins - Best-selling memoirist (Tripping into the Light), serial entrepreneur and certified Jack Canfield Success Principles trainer. 🌉 Connect & Take Action 🔗 Join the Academy (family membership $97/year): ThrivingBlindAcademy.org SYBL-TDI-05-29-2025-Kri… ✈️ Mentor Program (ages 15-21) - limited to 100 seats; apply now! SYBL-TDI-05-29-2025-Kri… 🎬 Support "Curve Ball" and help rewrite Hollywood's blindness narrative. SYBL-TDI-05-29-2025-Kri… 📅 Register for Dr. Adams' next "Supercharge Your Bottom Line" LinkedIn Live (last Thursday monthly). #️⃣ Hashtags #DisabilityInclusion #BlindEmployment #ThrivingBlind #DrKirkAdams #KristinSmedley #CharlieCollins #GrantCardoneFoundation #THRIVER #AccessibleLeadership #DEI #InclusionMatters #Podcast #Webinar   TRANSCRIPT:   Speaker1: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.   Speaker2: Welcome, everybody, to Doctor Kirk Adams monthly live stream webinar. I am Doctor Kirk Adams and the webinar is titled Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability Inclusion. And we really talk a lot about employment and the barriers to employment for people who are blind, and the success factors that lead to successful employment for people who are blind. And I did my doctoral dissertation, which is called Journeys Through Rough Country Ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American Corporations. And I learned a lot of things that I see emphasized and highlighted by the thriving Blind Academy. And I have the two co-founders of Thriving Blind Academy with me today. So Kristin and Charlie, if you could say hello.   Speaker3: Hey. Good to be here.   Speaker4: Hello. My name is Charlie, and I'm also very grateful to be here.   Speaker2: Great. Great. So my retina is detached. When I was five years old and I went to a school for blind kids first, second and third grade. And I got three things given to me there that later, as an adult researcher, I found were strong predictors of successful employment for blind adults. One was blindness skills. I learned to read and write Braille the same, same time. Sighted kids were learning to read and write print in first grade. I learned how to travel confidently and safely with a long white cane. And I learned how to type on a typewriter so I could type for my teachers. Today it would be keyboarding and using assistive technology. I was also given high expectations and many kids with disabilities that are their families like mine. My parents were in their mid 20s when my retinas detached. They'd never met a blind person before. So many, many kids are born into families who don't have knowledge or experience, and Sometimes they have preconceived notions about the capabilities of people with disabilities, and they have low expectations of their children. And schools sometimes have low expectations of children, and those become internalized. So my school had high expectations. My parents had high expectations. My dad was a they were both teachers. My dad was a high school basketball coach.   Speaker2: They didn't want to see anything less than an A on a report card. And they wanted their kids to be on sports teams and extracurricular activities, etc.. And my school, the school for the blind, had high expectations. There were 120 blind kids K through eight. We were all those of us who didn't have an additional disability, were expected to be at grade level. And then the third thing I got was a strong internal locus of control or sense of agency. So, you know, the internal locus of control, meaning that I control my destiny, I can overcome. I can figure it out. I can be creative. I can solve my problems as opposed to an external locus of control where you have that that terrible feeling. That stuff keeps happening to me and there's not much I can do about it. So I was given those three things, and then when I did my doctoral research, I found out that the blind individuals I talked to who self-identified as successfully employed in large companies, they had those same things. They also had knowledge, skills and abilities that were required for the jobs they were doing. They also talked about the importance of working, being part of teams, either sports teams or choirs or debate teams as teams was a factor that that came out a lot.   Speaker2: Having a company they were working for that had a culture of inclusion, Having a supportive immediate supervisor. And so we I learned a lot about what can lead to success for employment for people who are blind. And as we know, only 35% of us are in the workforce, which leads to a lot of bad things. Poverty. Health disparities mental health disparities, the homeownership disparities, all, all, all kinds of bad stuff. And I got I got pretty clear 30 plus years ago that employment and interesting appropriately compensated career and solve a lot of problems for people. So I've, I've devoted myself really, really to creating pathways to employment. And as, as you may know, I, I was privileged to be the president and CEO of the Lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, where we employed several hundred blind and deaf blind people and businesses, including. Aerospace. Manufacturing. Advanced manufacturing. I then had the opportunity and honor and privilege to lead the American Foundation for the blind, which was Helen Keller's organization, and moved to New York from Seattle and then D.C. and shortly after I arrived at the office offices at two Penn Plaza next to Madison Square Garden in New York, and where I was able to go sit at Helen Keller's desk, play with her typewriter, which was a really inspirational thing to do if I ever needed a little motivation.   Speaker2: I got a call from a person named Kristin Smedley, and she said, I want to come talk to you, and I'm in Philadelphia and I'm going to get on a train. When will you be in? So Chris, Kristin is not a shy person. And so she came and we talked and formed a great, wonderful collegial relationship in a, in a, in a different thread and narrative. I was introduced to Charlie Collins and spent some time with him in Washington, DC with some other very charismatic positive blind people. And at some point, Charlie and Kristin connected and created the thriving Blind Academy. And so we want to talk about that today. So I thought perhaps, Charlie, if you could talk to us about your life experience as a person with a visual impairment some of the peaks in the valleys and things, things you've learned along the way. And if you could, if you could. This is like writing a novel. This is chapter one. Chapter one is going to lead to the point where you meet Christopher.   Speaker4: The point where I was. What? There.   Speaker2: Where do you meet Kristin? Give us your life story. Until the point in time when you and Kristin connected.   Speaker4: Oh, this is a couple hour thing, right?   Speaker3: I was, like, within reason.   Speaker4: Kristin's nervous. Trust me.   Speaker3: I'm putting my coffee down. Yes.   Speaker4: I first of all, thank you for having us as guests on your podcast, where this is a great privilege. And so, sure, I I'm one of six in my family, and and we as young children I was nine, my sister was five, and, you know, whatever. 11 and 14, all four out of six of us were diagnosed back in the late 1776. It was called juvenile macular degeneration. But you know, now it's Stargardt's. And we were all diagnosed with that in my senior because, you know, we were struggling a bit and my brother wore glasses. He's older. And it just nothing was working and, you know, nothing nobody knew in the state of Connecticut where I lived, still what was going on? We tried different kinds of doctors, and one doctor suggested that we get in contact with this mass pioneer because he goes, it could be something in the eye. We just don't get it. And sure enough, that's what we learned on that day. And then we went back. Kirk, all six of us, eight of us in the big old Plymouth station wagon once a quarter for a year and a half.   Speaker2: Did it have the back, rear facing seat.   Speaker4: Yes. That was the way back.   Speaker2: Yes. That the way, way back. Yes. That was the.   Speaker4: That was my favorite place because you could make faces at the cars behind you.   Speaker3: Exactly right.   Speaker4: And what was another neat thing about those cars was they didn't have catalytic converters. And when you put the back window down, the exhaust came right back in the car. So that could be one of my problems. Anyway we after that year and a half, my thought was, obviously we're doing all this because they're going to fix it. And that wasn't the case on our last day there. They said, thank you very much. There's no more sense coming in. We did not. We don't know of a way to fix this, reverse it, or give you your children back their eyesight. And here's a list of all the things that you can't do in life. I mean, these were researchers, and these people were not even their social skills weren't that great, But what they were good at was, you know, being behind the scenes, working on a cure. But anyway, they gave us, like, we shouldn't really be very careful. Snow skiing. Probably won't be playing sports in school. We'll never drive a car. Wait a minute. Read that again. And all these things and they said in your eyes are going to progressively they're going to get worse. And as we were walking out of there, Kirk, my mom, I heard and I saw she took that piece of paper and she just crumpled it into a ball and threw it in the garbage. And we left, and that was you know, I never went to a blind school, you know, I was, I am, I was, but then at age 13, I was declared legally blind, and I was not accepting. I I never liked it. I was an angry, visually impaired kid. I wanted to be sighted like my friends, I wanted Charlie.   Speaker2: I was totally blind when my retinas detached at age five and in middle school I went to school every day. Don't listen to this, kids. And I put my cane in my locker and didn't use it all day because I didn't want to stand out by having a cane in my hand. So I rather stand out by banging into people in the hallway and groping the walls to find the doorways and things like that. So I also had a lot of resentment as a teenager, so I understand that fully.   Speaker4: Thank you. And that willful blindness, the blindness that we work with in the Academy, the blind spots in the mind and all that, the true nature of the problem which I was beginning to learn, not learn, beginning to experience in my life. The blaming, complaining, the poor me. Why did this have to happen to me? And you know, my brother didn't complain that much. My older sister didn't. My little sister was little and she didn't. But it was it wasn't right. And it wasn't fair and I knew I have some sight. So I knew what I lost. I knew what I because I'd be sitting with my buddy and he'd be like, we were sitting at the bottom of a little ski area, and he we were at the bottom of a hill sitting in his car, and we were just watching the skiers come down. And at the top of the hill, he's like, that person has a blue jacket on and this and that. And I'm like, what? You can see that that. That's insane. I mean, I would have had to walk up and be within five feet to tell back then that he had a blue jacket on and he's like 150 yards away seeing it just fine. So I kind of was like this, how am I ever going to get through life not seeing? But the thing is, my parents were like yours. They didn't care. It wasn't. They didn't care, but they didn't allow me to say I can't because of my eyesight. Even though that story was building in my own mind and, you know, I had to go to all school.   Speaker4: We all went to private schools. None of us went to any blind schools or gotten any special training. I never had a TVI. I think one came in in high school and I said, I don't need you go away because God forbid, like you with the cane. What happens if a student saw me meeting with somebody? They would think something's wrong with me. I tried to hide it as much as I could to, and that was impossible, because I couldn't see the kids coming down the hallway that well, you know, I was lost a lot, and and you know, and that was my journey for up until age 23. You know, I hit the wall a lot, but I. Kirk, I went to work at a at a at a ski area, and I was the guy watching up at the top of the hill, watching the people come up the lift. Not a good job for a legally blind guy. And I'm like, all of a sudden the phone rings and the guy's like, hey why aren't you stopping the lift? I said, why? He's like, well, somebody's getting dragged. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went to the guy and I said, hey, can you take me off the j-bar? And then he put me on the chairlift and then, you know, and then I finally said, I'm visually impaired, I can I sweep. I don't want a position that has to involve me taking skiing to endanger people.   Speaker2: Right.   Speaker4: Yeah. Thank you. That's what I. I didn't say it back then. I was more worried about me than them. And Anyway, so my journey went like that. I built tennis courts. I worked always, but I always said I'm never going to amount to much more than this. But I went to work every day. I worked really hard every day. And my dad the that value, that ethic of, you know, if you want, you gotta, you gotta earn. My dad didn't just give away things. He made us work for it. And thank God for that. I mean, I, I hated him for it. To be honest, but the day that I grew up enough and said thank you for teaching me this, you know Kirk at the at the when I was at the jumping off point in my life, you know, there were many nights I, I laid in bed wishing I would die that night. There were lots of times I thought about how I could take myself out, because I'm. I'm never going to amount to anything. And then, you know, these times I would lay in bed and cry myself to sleep in private. Would never tell anybody that I am full of fear. I don't belong. I don't, you know, I never would have shared that because I didn't share my feelings. And I I got an opportunity at a motorcycle dealership and I panicked.   Speaker4: I didn't know what to do, but I was at the jumping off point. I said yes, but I told the guy that you know what? You're nuts. You're hiring a visually impaired. I am legally blind. What the heck are you thinking? I didn't say that, but that's what I was thinking. And he said, I'm aware that you had something going on with your eyes. Because I, of course, was a customer there. I had a dirt bike and but he said, I believe in you. And then he sat there and in that moment, my eyes teared up. I'm like, oh, great. The guy is, you know, hiring me, and I'm almost crying. I'm like, you believe me, I don't believe in me. One of the biggest principles we work with in the Academy is that belief. It's possible. And belief in yourself. And I didn't have that at all. And he started to let me see that within me. And I called and got help. The state agency came in at 23 years old. Finally, first time and they I got adaptive technology. I got a CCTV, a lamp, I got a computer. And then I started learning it and I skyrocketed and became part owner of that company in a short amount of time. And then I left that company, and then I opened another company and Vision Dynamics, selling adaptive technologies for people.   Speaker4: And I started to here in Cheshire, Connecticut. People would say, why did you start it here? I said, because I can get here. You know, I live in a rural area. There's no transportation really around here, and I need to get to work now. I did ride a scooter a little bit, but we won't go there right now. And anyway, I ran that company for 19 years. We served almost 17,000 people, helped regain their independence and live a better quality of life. Stepping into what is possible with any type of disability, but mostly vision impairment. We did a lot with learning difficulties and things like that too, and that fueled my life because I saw that I have something to give. I am here for a reason. My eye disease. I don't like it, but it doesn't, you know. I accept it. It doesn't mean I need to like it, but I do accept it. And most days I forget that I have a vision impairment and you know. And that's good. You know, I just go about my day and we, you know, our environment, my environments are all set up for success. So anyway, after that business, I sold it. I wrote a book, tripping into the light. I started going around speaking, and I.   Speaker2: Have that book right here on my BrailleSense. I download it from bookshare. It's pretty. It's pretty. It's a page turner.   Speaker4: Yeah, well, we won't go into that. I mean, I turned to alcohol and drugs to to solve the misery of somebody making me blind, you know? And it was it was a solution when I was younger. It worked, but it stopped working. It created more problems. So do not try that path. And if you do, stop doing it because it only gets worse. I you know, I'm grateful that I'm sober and I'm alive and above ground and breathing, you know? And anyway, I got rid of that company. I sold it in 2016. And then you know, I was out helping the industry and doing some marketing things and going all around and getting in front of crowds and sharing my success principles, and well, they weren't mine, but I was repurposing them through my lens and through my story. And then, you know, that wonderful lockdown happened, and I was in a morning a mastermind group, accountability mastermind group, and I started seeing Kristin's block on the thing, and I would zoom in with my magnifying. I'm going. She had, like, a baseball cap on. And, you know, she was a bit like she had no problem talking and sharing whatever in the conversation. But I found out she had two sons that were blind, and I'm like And she said some things that, like you said, she said, you know, it's if it's meant to be, it's up to them. I can't get them successful. I can only teach them certain things, but it really pisses me off what they're up against out there. And I'm like, oh, that's what I've been doing all. And then I'm private teaching her and she's ignoring me. I'm like, now I don't think I like her anymore. Let me try one more time. I'm like, hi, this is Charlie. I'm legally blind. We should connect nothing. I'm like And you know, of course she said, oh, I don't think I ever got him. But anyway, finally we.   Speaker3: Connected.   Speaker4: And then we started our own group with a group of us doing a mastermind, and we did it for a good year and a half or so. Right, Kristin? Through the. I don't like even saying it that time. And we had this brilliant idea. Why don't we join forces, take the thriving blind tripping into the light our life experiences and do what we both know needs to be done. And that we really want to we're passionate about. And we formed the thriving Blind Academy, basically.   Speaker2: End of chapter one.   Speaker3: Okay. I'm done. Chapter one has ended.   Speaker2: Chapter two. Kristin's journey. Until she met Charlie in the master.   Speaker3: Well, you know, it's interesting as I'm sitting here listening and it always reminds me I love doing these interviews with Charlie. Because he reminds me often about how different we are and how different our journeys are. And, I mean, you're going to hear an exact opposite situation. You know, Charlie's mom, who I'm so envious of that she got that diagnosis, crumpled up that paper and threw it in the trash can. And most people right now, in 2025, hear the name Kristin Smedley. And they would expect that I did the exact same thing as Charlie's mom. And then I went out there and took on the world with my boys, and it was completely opposite. So if people are watching, listening and and coming up against a challenge, you know, some of us are able to crumple it up and throw it in the trash can. And some of us cry on the couch for a while. And and what I want you to hear is that no matter where you're starting in all of that, everyone can get to the crumpling it up, throwing it away, and making stuff happen. Because the fact that I started by hearing a doctor say, your son is blind at five months old, my firstborn child, that I had no plans to hear blindness, I he was the first blind person I had ever met, and the only story that I knew about blindness was what? I'm going to date myself here, but I know I'm amongst good company that will know this show from your ages as well. Little House on the Prairie was the story of blindness that I knew.   Speaker2: Old Mary by the fireplace. Well, Laura goes to school.   Speaker3: She sat there and did nothing. Everybody cried when she would wake up in the morning and couldn't do anything. And then what did they do? They shipped her off to a school for the blind. That burnt down. Like, how negative can you possibly get over blindness? So that was, you know, that was the story that Hollywood was selling about blindness. And I didn't hear anything else. So that's what I believed when the doctor said, your son is blind. Now, I like to think I'm pretty on the ball now. And I was pretty on the ball and was highly accomplished at that by the time that moment had happened. But I just couldn't get my head around it. So instead of saying, okay, direct me to all the resources, direct me to direct me, I said, whoa, is he going to play baseball? Like that was all of my hopes and dreams for him. Is he going to play baseball? Will he be playing football for the Eagles? We're a little bit crazy sports fans here in Philadelphia. Self-admitted will he how is he going to excel in school? How is he going to do? And I was envisioning my life and all of my dreams for him. How is he going to go to college? How is he going to get married? And as I'm verbalizing all this, and the movie is running in my mind, and then suddenly running into darkness, the doctor said he's not going to do any of the things that you think he's going to do.   Speaker3: And I said, well, then what am I supposed to do with him? And he said, I don't know, but good luck. So I do give myself a lot of grace now that, that when you start a journey with something so unexpected and the person that is the specialist, you know, the the go to the the knowing it all person knows nothing about it and says, I don't know, but I need you to move out of this office because I have other people in the waiting room. It's why I'm passionate and will work 80 hours a week to get things off the ground, because I don't want another mom to have to start the journey like that. But here's where. Here's where it gets real different from my story and Charlie's story. Not only was I different from his mom, I went home and cried on the couch for three years. I mean, I was, you know, Michael was just one of those human beings that you just are a better person for spending a few minutes with him, and he draws you in. And he's been like that since he was born. He just has this incredible spirit that really impacts people. And I was I was seeing that during the day. But honestly, for three years I was every night praying, blindness away. And every morning I was pissed off that it was still there, because I just did not expect to have to learn about something I had never planned for. I wasn't that kind of person.   Speaker3: I was high achieving. There was high expectations for me in my own life, but I always did the things that I knew I'd be good at, and I didn't really like to try things that were brand new that I had never heard of, let alone had no resources for. And everyone has to remember this is back in the year 2000. There was no Facebook group to go to. There was no Google to see what was happening in the world and find some success stories. With blindness, there was nothing. There was a listserv of a couple of maybe a hundred parents that also had blind kids. And when I went on that listserv, every message was devastation, sadness. It was horrible. It was the most horrible reading I had ever done for two weeks. So I was praying this away, pissed off every morning. And then when I was expecting my Mitchell, my second child, three and a half years later. Because to be perfectly honest, you know, if you look at if you look at families mine and Charlie's are very different to have more than one blind child, most people get a blindness diagnosis and they never have another baby. And I was first of all, I'm from a really big family, so I could not imagine having an only child. And I am a research nerd. I mean, I researched with people I was calling people that were only children helped me get my head around this. But what it really boiled down to, and I'm not exactly proud of this, but it is what it is.   Speaker3: I figured a second child, if Michael had a sibling, he'd have a built in friend because I couldn't fathom how he was going to make friends if he wasn't going to be on sports teams like I was. If he wasn't going to be in school like I was. Where were his friends going to come from? So I was going to I was going to give him one. And then I also thought, you know what? There's no way for three and a half years I've been horrible at this diagnosis. So there's no way that the God I believed in would send me another one and screw that up, too, right? Like no way. And I also figured it was Leber's congenital amaurosis was our diagnosis. So I looked that up and it was a 25% chance. And I'm like the delirious optimist. There's a 75% chance that we got nothing going on, right? So right before Mitchell was born, I woke up one morning and the math major in college, Kristin, came to the table that morning and said, whoa, 25% is like a really big chance. And I've got this feeling we're going to deal with this a second time. And you want to talk about my ugliest of cries and my most horrific of prayer moments. It was a full on tantrum that I was having that morning because I'm like, there's no way I could do this again. And what kind of a God would, would do something like that to a child once and then and then a second child.   Speaker3: And I couldn't even get out of my room that morning. I got to the end of my bed, and that's all depressed and sad I was. And then I could hear Michael making his way down the hallway to my bedroom. And at three and a half years old, my Michael didn't walk. He skipped and he jumped. And he would sing a song and dance his way through every day. And he came barreling into my room and he said, mommy, isn't this the best day ever? And I was like, oh my God. And I thought to myself, you have no idea that your best day is going to be a fraction of what my best day will be. You have no idea what kind of world you're stepping into, and you have no idea what you're going to miss out on. So I said to him, Michael, why do you think that this is the best day ever? And with his big signature smile and a that just lit up every room, he said, mommy, the sun is shining and I have all my toys and I'm just so happy. And he spun around and went back to his perfect day. And in that instance now, yes, I am creating a film in Hollywood, but if I would have directed and written that that part lightning bolts, all kinds of fireworks were going off in, in my mind that I was like, oh my God, this kid is not.   Speaker2: Some visual information for people who are blind. I just I just wiped a tear.   Speaker3: Oh.   Speaker2: Thank you for that.   Speaker3: I was like, I prayed blindness away every day for three years. And in that moment, it was my blindness to Michael and his spirit and all the gifts he had and the life he had ahead of him. I was so blind to his potential and his joy, and his not bothered by blindness that I missed it. For three and a half years. So in that moment, yes, that prayer was answered. Blindness was taken away. Was it the specific one I was talking about? No, it was even better. It was me. The blinders were removed and I was able to see him not as a blind child anymore. I was able to see him as this music loving bundle of joy that made everybody around him a better person after a minute with him. So I didn't know how I was going to do it, because I still didn't have any resources to do it, but I was going to figure out how to get them the tools that they needed. And I and I made a commitment to them in that moment that I would be their guide on the side, and I would get them what they need and follow their lead. And that has led me to the most extraordinary places. And for parents. Whatever your kids have going on or nothing at all going on. I want parents to hear that. I believe, after 25 years now, because Michael turned 25 recently, I believe our biggest struggles and our children's biggest struggles, even into adulthood, are that they are carrying the weight of our expectations, along with the weight of their own expectations on their lives.   Speaker3: Right. And I always say, imagine a kid walking with a backpack, and in that backpack are all of his hopes and dreams, but he's also carrying these bricks and boulders of the parents expectations and hopes and dreams. And that's unfair. And that's what weighs them down. And when we get that off of them and I'm like, hey, the best thing among Many a list of best things about blindness in our life. The best thing it did for me was that my expectations were eliminated, and I literally had to say, I don't know what you're going to be able to do, but whatever you want to get out there and try, I will help you figure it out. And then I quickly had to figure it out that with two of them, I was outnumbered, and I had to go find some people that were able to guide me, which is why I then did become more like Charlie's mom. I muscled up and I started Kirk so lovely said, I just, you know, oh, Kristin called me and then she said she was coming up to visit. I was hunting people down. I was finding people even before we had Facebook and all that. When Google came on the scene, it was like, oh boy, that lady's on there crashing it again, finding the role models to guide my guys and help me find the resources to help them become thrivers in this world.   Speaker2: And you learned a lot.   Speaker5: And I learned a lot.   Speaker2: And I think Charlie mentioned that that that that concludes chapter two. So now we'll move chapter three. And you two can self-organize this chapter any way you want. You're, you're a team. So the thriving blind. The first time I heard the those two words together was a book that you were putting together. Kristin, I'm privileged to be profiled along with some other pretty awesome blind people. And now you develop the thriving Blind Academy. I've had the honor to be part of two summits that you conducted as a thriving blind command academy this January and 2024 I receive your new newsletters and read them with joy. Five to thrive and the different topics you explore. And If you're going to be blind, this is a pretty good time to be blind, because technology is so helpful to us, and we can connect and join in community and engage and access resources in ways that even five years ago we're not as robust as they are now. So the thriving Blind Academy is using all the tools. And I would love to hear how you two created the Academy. What has the journey been so far? What's working well, any challenges you might be having and where you see the Academy going?   Speaker3: Well, let me jump in for one quick second and then I'm going to turn it over to Charlie, because really, it's based in our experiences in Charlie getting into the world and thriving. And then me seeing the things, the elements of my sons and Kirk. You pointed out a few of them in the beginning of this, but it was also Charlie's whole background in the principal, the success principles of all successful people. So I want him to to go into that a little bit, because his journey with that was incredible. But Charlie mentioned when we met in the mastermind, and then he was messaging me and I'm like, okay, wait a minute. I think maybe that's a little bit we get a little bit dramatic in our tales of how we talk about when we met, but when we finally did connect, it was, you know, what I love about both of you? And it's such a testament to successful people. You guys jump in, right? When someone needs to have help, you jump right in as go givers. And I had reached out to both of you for the original Succeed Without Sight summit to say, hey, listen, we can't do anything because it's Covid. Parents really need this message. It's so frustrating. I need them to understand about thriving. And you both came in and said, I don't know what you're putting together, but and I'm like, here, there's going to be a zoom link.   Speaker3: I promise, as soon as I figure it out. And you both came in to speak, Charlie came in on one of the. We had so many speakers, we and we had someone from Australia that I had to switch out the schedule and we started on like a Thursday night, Friday night and all day Saturday. And Charlie was like, who is this woman? I've only seen her with her baseball hats and her Philly attitude in the mornings, and now she wants me to come in and open this summit no one's ever heard of. Okay, so I actually had my Mitchell at the time because everybody was stuck home during the pandemic. I had him come in to my office and listen, the night that Charlie spoke to open this whole summit, because I wanted him to be a speaker, too. And he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I said, all these people don't know either, but they have signed up for it. So just do what I say. And Charlie spoke and he and he went more in depth to what he just told all of you just now. And, you know, my Mitchell is very different from my Michael. I mean, they are completely opposite human beings with their unique gifts and talents. But Mitchell struggles with blindness in ways that Michael never did. And I didn't realize that he had been doing what Charlie did, hiding his feelings, not wanting to share them with me because I was such the thriving blind mom.   Speaker3: And when Charlie spoke and ended the session, I shut my laptop and Mitchell looked at me and he said, mom, that guy just changed my life. So I knew in that moment that there's no way that I could build something that would address the entire community, because I don't walk that walk. Right. I can talk to parents, I can I can hug them, I can do all the tough love. I can do all the things because I've been there with two that are very different, But I cannot walk that walk. That a person, especially somebody that loses vision later in life. That has not been my journey. And watching the impact that Charlie had on my Mitchell. And then I watch in our Monday calls and all the things that we do. I mean, it's absolutely, unbelievably necessary for our community to have somebody like Charlie and the stuff that he teaches and coaches in our community is not just tools of blindness and all of in the siloed, shoved into the blindness corner. It's all of what makes a person successful in the world. So, Charlie, I'm going to I'm going to have you go into that a little more on how this came to be, this thrive or formula with the success principles.   Speaker4: Sure. Well, thank you. And Kristin, I think it was when I was in sitting in a classroom and terrified that it was they were doing a reading and it might come. They might try to get me to read. And then I was terrified when they wrote on the chalkboard because the kids would be like, hey, you can't see. You know, and I didn't know how to express that. And then gym class, it really I bombed that day and I was sharing like I held this stuff in, which is just very damaging because then the belief that I am different, I'm less than, I'm not good enough. I'll never thrive. It keeps growing inside of me. And Mitch was like, oh crap, I've been doing that. And you know, and when you realize you're not alone and you do have feelings and they're okay, and let's talk about it. And, you know, the biggest thing was I learned to one day I wasn't alone. I suffered, I had issues, and I but I didn't, but my brother didn't, so I felt alone. Did you. Oh, you moved on the screen. That was weird. You know what I mean? My brother was the opposite of me. He dancing around and doing school and doing dad. Is there anything I can do for you? Stop being so good. You're making me look bad.   Speaker4: Anyway, so, Kristin, I, I, I you know, when this whole constant and never ending improvement that we live by, Kirk understands it. We understand that if we let off the gas for too long we're going to come to a stop. If we stop pedaling on the bike, eventually the bike's going to stop. So you've always got to be in motion. And that's where my. I became addicted to learning and to growing and personally developing. And then I can't keep it unless I give it away. So I want to share only experiences. And I don't talk down from a hilltop. You need to do this. I just like to hey, this is what worked for me. And basically I started going to conferences and doing all this stuff. And when I ever went to the Breakthrough to Success Conference in 2008 and I it was a seven day event that was doing exactly what we do in the academy, basically was showing you the problem, helping you see that you do have the power within to resolve and get rid of discard and start building on some new, you know, beliefs and principles and things like that. You know, because a lot of people that go to those conferences are pretty banged up. They want help and they're ready, you know, and it's always you got to be willing and you got to be ready, make a decision and then move forward.   Speaker4: So by the end of that. Jack Canfield. Chicken soup for the soul. That's the guy that was running these things. And at the end of it, he was going to let us two people out of 400 and something come up on stage and share their story. I'm not a speaker. I mean, I spoke for my company. I went all over the place talking about adaptive technology. What this is going to do for you. But I didn't really bring in my story. So, Kirk, that week he had a big jug on the table, and he gave us all index cards, and you had to write your name in. Why? You think he should pick you to speak? Well, my first thought was, I can't I can't write on an index card. I write massive with a dark pen. So that's not fair. And. And then I toughed around. But I walked by that darn jug every day and looked at the cards, going in it and thinking, wow, people. They would actually get up on stage in front of everybody and speak. That's crazy. See, now I was I was still scared back then, even though I lived my life in my protected little environment. Well, now I'm outside that playing with the big wigs, and I was scared.   Speaker4: But anyway something came to me, and I just kept in my room that week, and, you know, we, you know, see yourself doing it. Practice. And I would walk in my room and go, hi, my name is Charlie Collins and pretend I was speaking to the group. And then by the last day he said, okay, by lunch is the last time you can put something in the jug. So if you want to be possibly chosen. So I finally ripped out, I had a notebook with legal size paper in it, and I wrote, you know, hey, Jack, it's Charlie Collins. This is why I think you should pick me. And then I folded it up, and I lifted everything in there, and I hid it in the bottom, and then I an hour we went to lunch, and I said, what did I do? I started sweating, I ran back into the room to find that jug and rip my paper out, and it was gone. I said, oh my God. And I panicked. And then the next day the conference started. He picked, he said, all right, we're going to pick the two speakers. And he said, speaker number one. The guy was great. He had a knife in his chest ready to pull it in, and I'm like, whoa.   Speaker4: He was so good. And I remember thinking, oh my God, I would never want to be the one going after this guy. And then we're sitting there and he goes, all right, our next guy is Charlie Collins. And I went, there better be another one here. And the people are poking me next to me because we all become friends. You know, we worked in groups and we all grew together. It was a wild experience. And I'm there like, that's you. I'm like, oh, God, I gotta get out of here. And my knees, my legs were shaking. I'm holding my hands and wiggling fast. Like, like ridiculously. I couldn't even control it. And the guys miking me up, he's like, don't worry, it's going to be fine. I said, easy for you to say. I'm the one walking out on stage. And you know, this is where I. I heard the teachings and I just stepped into it. I leaned into it and I said, what's the worst that can happen? These people want me to. I was the only visually impaired person in the whole place, and they didn't treat me any different. They let me sit up front. They asked me, is there anything we can do for you? Only because I said, I need some reasonable accommodations. And they were met and exceeded.   Speaker4: So I had no excuses. I wanted this, my flow in life, my path was going that way and this was it. So I got up and did my speech and I got a standing ovation from over 400 people. It was the weirdest feeling. I'm thinking, sit down, this is so uncomfortable. I'm, you know, and then at the end, they gave me feedback and criticism and feedback and all that. And that was a little hard. I'm like, this is my first time. Anyway. But at the end, Kirk and this is what this is where the neat part is. Instead of walking off to the left of the stage where the stairs were, I walked right to the edge of the front and did this like a momentum of my body, and flailed my arms like I was walking off the front of the stage as a blind guy, and I was going to land on the people in front of me. They all screamed and jumped up, and I pointed and went, gotcha! I was just messing around. I realized I had a very big, playful side that was not afraid to come out in a room full of people I didn't know. And the place went berserk. And people to this day know me as the dude that freaked him out, almost stepping off the stage.   Speaker4: And I've been in presentations with 3400 people. I jump off the front of the stage and land right in front of the front row. So you know, I I learned principles of success, whether it's believing in yourself, leaning into asking for help. I went from a go getter in life to a go giver. I know there's a book by that. And I met him in a Jack Canfield conference. I'm like, hey, I've been using that. Not fair. And then he became one of the speakers in our in our summit. But that is what happened to me was I these guiding principles, I would come back to my company and we would do weekly trainings on them and about taking responsibility, about going the extra mile, all these neat things that I didn't learn in the 12 years of school I had. Because not only were my eyes not working that well, but neither were my ears. So that's what we did. And Kristin and I just we just partnered it, and I said, let's let we talked about let's come together. Let's take turn it into an academy and a place where we can bring people in, let them know they're not alone, and let them know that they have the power to succeed. They just got to remove their blind spots and we can help them get there.   Speaker2: So give us give us the thriving Blind Academy brochure. If people become involved with the Academy, blind people, families with blind kids who, who, whoever can benefit, what, what do they get? What do you do for them?   Speaker3: Well, you just heard tell Charlie went from where he was at in life and took that one step to go to that conference, just not knowing how it was going to go. And that's exactly what we do in the academy. People can come in from wherever they are on the journey. We have folks that just got the diagnosis for their four month old baby And reached out. And we have folks that have had a very successful life. All of a sudden their vision has dropped off more. They don't know where they're going to go now. And they come in. And then we have folks like Clark Reynolds, who was believing in himself, believing his whole life was possible. The entire town in his London town said, absolutely not. You can't be a blind artist. He came in to said, hey, I think that I can. Do you guys think that I can too? And can you help me get there? So it's like the whole gamut of where people are in, in their journey with blindness. And we do all of what Charlie just said. Jack Canfield does in breakthrough for success, we build community. You, Kirk, you mentioned that that every week anyone that signs up for the newsletter gets the five to thrive to start their week in a thriving mindset. But the best part is our members come in every Monday to that, to a one hour community call where we break down, Charlie and I break down whatever that element of the Thriver formula is that we're focusing on that week, and then it's open community talk.   Speaker3: People share stories about we kind of start out on the on that letter of the Thriver formula and the coaching and then have some examples and then it just goes off from there. And we have had folks that like Clark, he was doing really well and he was so successful, came through our mastermind programs and we have a whole online portal of masterclasses and, and the summit recordings and all of that. He was doing great, very successful. And then all of a sudden he met this huge barrier and challenge. And in one of our community calls on Monday, he said to the group, listen. And he's a mentor in our community. And he said, I am really struggling. I don't know how to take the next step on my journey of where I'm going with all of this. I've had so much success, but I've got this barrier because I just lost a ton more vision and I can't figure out how to do stuff at the different galleries and the whole community. I mean, it's one of my most favorite moments in all of the time that we've been doing this, people were people that never talk because a lot of people leave their camera off and just listen to the community share stories. They were turning cameras on, people were cheering him on. People were giving him a little tough love. Charlie was nudging him a little bit like, hey, maybe you should go about it this way. And after 20 minutes, Clark was back up to his high and getting back out there in the world. And then he ended up winning a medal from the Queen.   Speaker3: And I was like, if you if everyone came into our academy, you'd win a medal from the Queen. But to be very specific, and I will say this is one of the things we wanted to talk with you about, Kirk. And you probably realize this. We are very different. We do. We are ones that in this community, as opposed to pretty much everybody else, that gives everything away for free because they believe that that people that are blind deserve to have all free services. We say invest in yourself, invest in your child, invest in your family. Invest in the future that you want to design for yourself. And for a $97 membership fee for an entire year, the entire family can come in because, as you know, it's not just the one person. For the most part, it's their circle of people, whether they're going to be held back or not. But we do we do look for we got a lot of pushback on that investment, and Charlie and I stayed strong on that. And I'll tell you, the people that that are investing in themselves and their families, they show up. They do the work. Not that it's not that we give a ton of work. We do. They do some stuff before the next thing they join the master classes. You know, they're there for the entire time of the Succeed Without Site Summit Live, even though they get the recordings Wordings. Right? It's a it's a very different it's one little switch that has such huge results.   Speaker2: And how do people connect with the thriving blind Academy?   Speaker3: Well, as Charlie has on his screen, thriving blind academy org.   Speaker2: That is so easy to remember.   Speaker3: Yeah.   Speaker5: That's great. Let's see it. Well.   Speaker4: The little thing I have on the screen and Kristin, you mentioned want to mention this quick. The you said the thrive, the T and all that. But for those of you who don't know in Thriver is a is the principle formula the word and we.   Speaker5: Let's hear it.   Speaker2: Let's do it.   Speaker5: All right.   Speaker4: So t is tools. And that can be all sorts of tools. Anything and everything inside the industry, outside the industry. But the main tool that we focus on too is the mindset is the mind tool, because then all the other tools we need in our lives are just we attract them easier and we form a relationship and use them better when we don't fight. And then the next one is H. And that's handi capable. And even though in golf handicapped is positive. In our community, we, we move to what's possible. Belief in yourself. Belief that you can do it. And then there is responsibility. That wasn't my favorite one in the beginning. My. I used to hear that from my parents. You need to take more responsibility. I don't even know what you're talking about. Bye bye. And it's this that I'm no longer going to blame. Complain. I'm no longer going to rationalize why I behave that way or justify why I'm being a jerk. I'm not going to make excuses anymore, and I'm not going to figure that out immediately. But over time, I'm going to step into somebody who takes 100% responsibility for my life and the results of my life, because they are it is because of the way I think and do so that one is critical. We really focus in that one a lot. And Kristin, what have we got after the R?   Speaker3: So then it's the eye for independence and interdependence. Those are always exciting conversations in our Monday calls that we have every week, because it's that balance of being independent, but also knowing when to ask for help. And one of our members, Corey, who's a retired TVI, talks about if you to be independent, a child cannot be parent impaired. And she goes on about that. It's too fun. So knowing when to ask for help and then it's always the hilarious stories of Mitchell, who thinks that it's just, you know, it's so easy to ask for help because all these people just want to serve him. Look at how happy it makes them. So we also have to tweak that a little bit. Independence and interdependence. And then one that I've just really started embracing and diving into these past couple of months is value. The V stands for value. And what I realized is, you know, we talk about people that and Kirk especially I mean you look on your LinkedIn and it's all about the value of being inclusive, the value that a person that is blind and lives differently and accesses differently brings to the world. Right? And we're always talking about that. I've taught my boys that forever. What I didn't realize, though, was when Michael wasn't getting hired, coming out of Penn State summa cum laude, he wasn't necessarily communicating his value in the interviews and communicating, you know, not worrying about whether am I going to disclose, not disclose, fully disclosing because he's like, listen to how I've accessed the world and how I can add value to your company.   Speaker3: That's when he got hired, right? So values become a big one that we talk about. E and then there's the emotion part. And that's another thing. Charlie was actually the one that was really bringing this to light in a lot of our conversations, because we cycle through the Thrive or formula every six weeks about the power of emotion and families talking about the emotions. I mean, you heard his story. He had all of that, not wanting to talk about the emotions around all of this. And then Charlie's favorite, the final R, is risk taking. And those conversations you can imagine where some of some of the trails that that Charlie takes us down in the risk taking conversations. But the importance of taking a risk to be able to go in the direction of thriving and designing the life that you want, not what someone else has determined should be.   Speaker4: We'll never get there without taking that risk. And, Kirk, we got a member. His name is Eric, and he took a risk. One day, a branch was pissing him off because on the sidewalk. So he walked out of his house with a chainsaw and cut it down, and he's blind.   Speaker5: There you go. I know I.   Speaker2: Learned a new I learned a new term. This week I was contacted by Vanderbilt University. They have a federal grant to work on school, to work transition for blind youth. And they're preparing trainings for parents. And they asked if I would be willing to record a short video clip about the dignity of risk and how if you don't let your kids take risks, you're taking away their dignity as developing human beings. So I.   Speaker5: Love.   Speaker2: It. I like it, too. So.   Speaker5: Well.   Speaker4: Kirk, when Kristin said that as we as visually impaired children. I'm not anymore. But growing up, are we on our backs are the expectations of our parents. But you know what else is on the back of many kids that I worked with over the years is they're taking on the parents fear the parent is without the kid, without not saying it, but the parent doesn't want them to fail or be embarrassed or and I always teach. The only way they're going to make it is if all that happens and it's going to. You can't shelter them from it, and they know you're trying to protect them and they you enabling is disabling. So let them fall. Let them fail a little. That'll trigger the mind that they have to get to work to start building their.   Speaker5: Plan.   Speaker4: Of action.   Speaker2: So this was a phrase that was drilled into me 55 plus years ago at the Oregon State School for the blind. They said all the time, we don't pad corners. We don't pad corners here. Corners are.   Speaker5: Sharp. Yes.   Speaker2: They exist. You gotta learn how to deal with the world with a lot of sharp corners. And we're not going to pad the corners for you.   Speaker5: I would, I would have.   Speaker3: Known that from you, because.   Speaker5: Michael.   Speaker3: Hit a corner in my house and popped a hole in his forehead.   Speaker2: Well, the forehead is where you get it the most. Kristin.   Speaker3: Yeah, I.   Speaker5: Know.   Speaker2: And I, I also tell parents of blind kids you can measure how well you're doing by how many times you gotta go to the emergency room. So we have just sped through an hour together. I do want to go a little bit over, because there is a particularly awesome opportunity for 100 young, blind people to accelerate their journey into independence and thriving. That's coming up. And, Kristin, if you could give the headline of that and how people who are interested can connect with you.   Speaker3: Yeah. So again, it's thriving. Blind academy org. You can go right to the homepage and on the top left you'll see the giant button for the Thrive Blind mentor program. You know, like I said, we built the thrive formula on experience with blind kids and the EC and IEPs and all that. But we wanted to bring in with the real world. Everybody else success is and that was the success principles. Now we've got this partnership with the Grant Cardone Foundation, who is the Bazillionaire that teaches kids and adults. The adults pay upwards of 5000 to $50,000 to come into his workshops about leadership, financial literacy. Right. All of these key things that, you know, I looked at it and it was our friend Michael Patel that had told me about this. And when I looked at the program, I said, wow, they're doing this for Are thousands of at risk youth in Florida because Grant believes that all youth deserve these skills. Right. And I was like, why do we always have, you know, all at risk, all disability? And then the blind kids are kind of off on their own. Nobody thinks about that. They should be included in this too. And when I asked the Cardone Foundation that they were like, I don't know, no one's ever asked that. No one's ever come to us.   Speaker3: Sure, we'll do it. So it is the regular skills of financial literacy and leadership that make for successful entrepreneurs, future leaders, all of the things that these kids are going to be immersed in for a full day. And then we're doing the evening before because Charlie and I don't do anything if it's not fun. Like, yes, we are all about learning, teaching, coaching. But if it's not fun, we're not signing up. So we're making it super fun the night before where everybody's coming in, we actually have 11 states. People were coming in from 11 states, not just Florida. Now up to join us, get to know each other. A little bit of exercises around the Thriver formula, but really just building community. Actually, we already had one zoom call with a bunch of the early responders and registrations. And I can tell you, Kirk, it is like these kids, you know, a lot of them were sitting with their parents and they were probably the parents sign them up and said, you are going to do this whether you like it or not. And then as they were meeting each other and hearing each other, even just on the introductions, you could tell all the smiles started like, oh, this is going to be fun, right? So it's a day and a half in the Miami area where we'll all be hanging out at the hotel for the evening prior and then all going together to Grant Cardone's headquarters in Miami and learning from his coaches, mentors, all of these things.   Speaker3: But the cool thing is that they're allowing us to do that. I don't even want to say allowing that they're excited about that's different from any other workshop that they do. We've got a panel of people that are living with blindness and low vision, succeeding without sight, that are going to end the day in a way that says everything you just learned today. Here's how I've done that in my life living with vision loss. Because we don't want these kids leaving saying, well, that was great for people that can see. But you know, those complaining, blaming and all those excuses. So it'll be a really nice send off. But the coolest thing of all of it is then they're in our. This includes because of sponsorships. These kids will all then become members in the academy and have the opportunity to come into our Monday mentor calls and then specific calls just for that group to stay in touch with all of the lessons that Grant taught. They get access to his whole online platform in addition to the thriving blind platform.   Speaker2: What ages? What ages are we looking for?   Speaker3: 15 to 21.   Speaker2: 15 to 21. You have room for 100 blind young people age 15 to 21 for a amazing. Perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity. So w-w-w dot org, the giant mentor program, but. So that's where you find that. And finally, way, way back at the beginning of chapter two you asked the doctor, how is Michael going to play baseball? And they said, no, he's not going to be able to play baseball. And I believe he did play baseball very successfully. And I know you're making you're making a film having participating, having a Hollywood level box office film made. And I just proudly made a pledge and got my digital baseball jersey, which I posted on my social media. But give us give us about a minute on the curve ball.   Speaker3: Yeah. Curve ball. And thank you for for adding to the being part of the team Kirk curve ball.   Speaker5: Is they're calling it my jersey.   Speaker3: You know that's my favorite number. I was like oh how did he get 11. And I didn't. But they're calling curve ball the next Erin Brockovich. And honestly, I had always wanted to tell this story on the big screen because like I said, it was Hollywood that gave me the horrible story of blindness. So I wanted to change, use Hollywood to change what they were delivering as the story of blindness. When I saw Michael's championship baseball season unfold. Because if you can imagine walking up to a baseball field with the kid with the white cane, parents, of course, are insanely competitive. They don't want any perceived disadvantage, even though all of their kids were ten and terrible. There wasn't a really great, talented player on that team, The boys did not want anyone with a perceived disadvantage, you know. They all want to win and whatever. So we were not very welcome. Michael didn't care. Michael he can. Don't even think about that. He sees that people are disinterested. He can hear when people are disinterested before I can even see it. He didn't care he was going to go and play baseball. But I did not just walk up there saying, my kid's going to play baseball. He played blind sports and we played in the backyard. He was a good baseball player. So anyway, nobody wanted him on that team. They were afraid of me, I think.   Speaker3: So they said yes. And the kids lost every single game. But little by little, and like my Charlie mentioned reasonable accommodations. We asked for two accommodations. They were met, and little by little, the team started to have more and more teamwork with Michael at the helm of that, they didn't want to work with Michael in the outfield. Then they went to fighting over who got to work with Michael in the outfield. And lo and behold, they end up in the playoffs after losing every game and go on to win the championship in extra innings against the first place team. It is the incredible story of when you put your bias aside. Give every kid an opportunity with accommodations that are reasonable. The incredible, incredible advantages that happen when full inclusion is there. I always wanted to tell that story. My director, who I went to with the story, he said, Kristin, how did he get to be able to do all that? Who got him into the public school? Who gave him the tools? You have to tell the mom story your journey to. So it's both. It's parallel stories in one big feature film. And actually now the byline for it is Erin Brockovich meets Rocky, and they put a film together, something like that. And it's up for best screenplay in Hollywood. I'm going out there in two weeks.   Speaker2: Nice, nice. And if people want to support the film, where do they go?   Speaker3: The easiest way is Kristin Smedley.   Speaker5: Okay.   Speaker3: Kristin with an I in.   Speaker5: Okay.   Speaker4: It was about a year until you told me I was spelling your name wrong.   Speaker5: Well, Charlie.   Speaker2: Final. Final thoughts?   Speaker4: Now, this has been great. I enjoyed sharing and being connected to people like you and, of course, Kristin that are, you know, we're all out when we're not together. We're doing what we just did.   Speaker5: Right.   Speaker2: And join me next month. It's the last Thursday of the month. It is at 11 p.m. 11 p.m. no, 11 a.m. Pacific. Supercharge your bottom line through disability inclusion. If you want to get in touch with me, my website is www.com.com. And thank you everybody who is viewing this webinar. And thank you so much Charlie. Thank you so much Kristin with an I n appreciate you both so much and glad our paths keep crossing and recrossing.   Speaker5: Excellent.   Speaker2: Good care.   Speaker5: Thanks, Kirk.   Speaker4: Bye bye.   Speaker1: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this 34-minute episode, Dr. Kirk Adams speaks with Brandy Schantz—former U.S. Army officer, consultant, and chair of Virginia's State Rehabilitation Advisory Council—about her late-onset disability journey. Schantz describes being diagnosed with severe Crohn's disease, the complications that followed, and how an adverse reaction to medication led to dysautonomia and neuropathy, forcing her to create her own work-from-home accommodations years before remote work became common. The conversation compares the medical and social models of disability, highlights flexible scheduling as a low-cost but effective accommodation, and outlines how wellness and hybrid-work programs can help employers retain skilled staff who develop chronic conditions. Schantz also explains the role of state rehabilitation councils in connecting disabled workers with career supports. TRANSCRIPT: 00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams. 00:38 Welcome everybody to podcasts with Dr Kirk Adams, I have a wonderful guest today, Brandy Schantz. Brandy is host of The Living chronic podcast. She's the founder of Schantz business group disability consulting, and she is chair of the state of Virginia's rehabilitation advisory council. So you are a busy bee, Randy, yes, yes, I am. But you know, I have to say, it's been some of the most rewarding work of my life, so busy and humbled at the same time Wonderful. Well, we're going to come back to you and just just a minute and dig into your really interesting journey and your great vision for the future. And for those who don't know me, I am Dr Kirk Adams. I'm talking to you from my home office in Seattle. I am a totally blind person. Have been since age five. My rep was both detached. I went to a school for blind children for second and third grade, and learned to read and write Braille and travel confidently and proudly with a white cane and to type on a typewriter so that I was equipped to succeed in public school, which I started in fourth grade, and I was I was the only blind kid in all of My schools from fourth grade through my PhD, 02:02 I entered the world of business out of college, facing a lot of the barriers to employment that so many of us with significant disabilities experience. So I have a frustrating time finding employment, but I have had the experience of being a successful 02:22 disabled employee in corporate America, working in banking and finance, and I have had the experience of employing large numbers of people with disabilities as president and CEO of the Lighthouse for the Blind and then the American Foundation for the Blind. 02:38 I focus my time and energy now with my consulting practice, innovative impact LLC, and I say I was looking for fun, innovative, high impact projects that will accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities, 02:54 to work with people that I like. And so I met Brandy some time ago, and she kindly invited me to be a guest on her living chronic podcast. I wanted to I wanted to talk less about myself and more about her on so invited her to join me today, and Brandy would just really love to 03:17 hand you the talking stick and hear about your journey and what has led you to focus your intention on disability inclusion, 03:28 what you're doing currently? Where do you see your work going in the future? I would love to love to hear some successes, what's working well, and, of course, any challenges that you may be discovering, and we always learn from our challenges, and then then we'll let people know how to get in touch with you. So the floor is yours. 03:52 Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. You know, I was so excited to meet you, have you on my podcast. I really love the collaboration. It's such a different world here. You know, like you, I started in a different industry. I was an Army officer, and then I went into consulting and did a lot of work in the housing and finance sectors before I really had my own experiences becoming disabled much later in life. As a matter of fact, I had switched careers originally because I was diagnosed with a very severe form of Crohn's disease, and I just frankly, couldn't leave my house before noon, even on my best days. And I needed some sort of job that I could work from home in the mornings. So, you know, I had a little bit of an idea of what it was like to be challenged with a disability. Fortunately, I was able to pivot pretty quickly and deal with that. But five years ago, at what stage you your army career had ended? 05:00 Yeah, at that point, yeah. And you were Yes, yes. I left the army. 05:04 Yeah. I left the Army in 2007 05:08 and decided, you know, I, you know, got married, my husband, who was a little bit older than me. Well, he still is. I like to pretend I'm still much younger, but I guess I got much older as well. 05:22 He was retiring, and a few years beyond that, in the army, you can retire after 20 years. So if you commissioned at age 21 right after college, you're retiring at age 41 it's not it's not the worst setup, 05:35 but I wanted to be able to spend time with him rather than traveling with the army, so we settled in Washington, DC, like most of us do, and I moved on to consulting, okay, the obvious move, and Crohn's. I actually had an executive assistant who lived with Crohn's here, here at the lighthouse in Seattle. I know he would, his schedule permitted him to go for infusions regularly. Could you just tell, 06:08 tell a little bit about the onset? What? What? Yes, so actually, what? How does, how does that manifest? Oh, gosh, you know what? It manifests differently for everyone. And you know, that's the crazy part of chronic illness, especially autoimmune diseases. It just looks a little bit different in everybody. And I had actually been having symptoms since I started having symptoms while I was in Afghanistan in 2006 06:37 and I just assumed that, you know, I mean, there's all sorts of nasty stuff in Afghanistan that we're not used to if you've lived in the United States or Europe, these westernized countries, for years. So, you know, I didn't really think much of it. Pushed through. It wasn't so bad that it took me out of my job. So I just kept pushing forward. It wasn't until I was training for one of my marathons, I was training for Marine Corps Marathon, which has always been my favorite race, and I suddenly realized that I was having to kind of break away from my running group and go find a tree or a porta potty pretty frequently. 07:15 And it kept getting worse until I was dealing with severe pain every day, and just unable to leave the house. And I knew then that something was very wrong, and I went to the doctor, and that's when I was told that I needed to get a colonoscopy. They needed to do some biopsies, and I was finally diagnosed with Crohn's disease. What's interesting about it is, you know, 07:41 it's not one of those things where you get diagnosed and it's like, okay, well, here's the treatment plan. This is what you're going to do. We're going to go through this three months, and then you can go about your life. It's very trial and error. Nobody knows what's going to go to work. Nobody knows who's going to respond to what. So you have to try things and see how they're going to work for you. And we tried a lot with me, it did take me a long time to find something that would get me into remission. 08:12 So can you just, can you define 08:17 Crohn's disease? So tell us what. Tell us what it is. I know the one, but I Right. Like I said, I had the limited experience with one person I worked with. Yeah, so Crohn's disease is an 08:35 goodness. So you know what? I say it so much. You know how it is. You forget your your acronyms. I'm so here and not mess up my acronym, it's IBD, which is inflammatory bowel disease. Nothing like irritable bowel syndrome at all, but it can manifest in many different ways. 08:54 Some people just have terrible bloody diarrhea all day long. Sometimes it comes about, there's Crohn's, or you see with constipation, which is very painful. Of course, those can lead to bowel obstructions, which is an emergency. So you have to know when those The right time is to go to the doctor, go to the ER. 09:15 But it comes with some other things as well being an autoimmune disease. So it's not just the cramps and the pain. 09:23 There's, you know, various perforations you can get on your bowel, the blockages, which are very dangerous. It manifests in your joints often. Unfortunately, I have those symptoms as well. It feels a lot like arthritis, and then, 09:41 don't, want to get super clinical and medical, but, yeah, how would you define them? Autoimmune Disease? You've mentioned it several times, right? So an autoimmune disease is, you know, kind of the easiest way to explain it is, it's just your body attacking itself. Your immune system is really overactive. 10:00 Effective and it's attacking itself. 10:03 Of course, they're on the rise, and many women are very familiar with this. 80% of all autoimmune disease patients are women, in fact. So this is very much a women's issue. We're seeing a lot of women being diagnosed more and more frequently, as matter of fact, just last week, an old friend of mine that I used to work with reached out, and, you know, turns out, Hey, she's been diagnosed as well. And, oh, by the way, it's so severe, she had to take a step back and leave her job to focus on health. So the stories are not uncommon, yeah, so I interrupted you, but you are a very active person. You're on active duty serving in Afghanistan. You're a marathon runner, and you start having these symptoms, and it gets to the point where you really can't leave the house. You're diagnosed with a chronic illness, and all of a sudden you are a person with a disability? Yes, I'll let you take I'll let you take it back over. Yeah, well, you know, and it's just, I think I'm actually, I know I'm no different than a lot of people. I never said the D word. I didn't say the D word for years. It took me a long time to say the D word. 11:21 I just thought, well, you know, I have an illness. Let me just smooth right through this. I'll be fine. I'll be fine. 11:27 You know, there's a big joke in the military, you know, whatever you have, legs been blown off. You know what? Drink water. You'll be fine. Press on. Drink water. You know, we'll just move through anything. We don't complain. We don't say anything. And unfortunately, there just, there comes a time where you realize, well, I think I'm gonna have to complain about this one. I kept trying to just get right through it, but unfortunately, I just could not leave my house, and I had severe, severe pains. What makes this especially difficult is it restricts your life in ways you don't think about, you know, I talk about those, you know, bowel blockages. You know, you can get infections. There's not that uncommon to get these very serious infections in your GI tract, all these various things that could happen. IBD, you know, again, a lot of people confuse it with IBS, this is autoimmune disease your body's attacking itself. IBS is an irritation 12:25 usually caused by food some other things. I know there's some doctors out there that probably have a lot more to say about it, but with IBD, you can very much die from IBD. It does happen. So it starts restricting your life and things you didn't necessarily think about, if you're not in remission, your disease is very active. I was restricted from going on vacations that I may have, you know, gone on before I know, my husband and I used to love to go to the Bahamas, especially around Christmas time, because it's nice and quiet. You just get to kind of hang out on a hammock instead of participating in all the drama and purchasing and all that around Christmas in the US, we just could be and do nothing. But unfortunately, I had to stop going for some period of time because they just did not have the facilities if I had an emergency, and the nearest facility would have been in Miami, which is not a far plane ride by any stretch, but if you can't get a plane, yeah, you know, you only have hours. So there's, there's a lot of little things you just don't think about that suddenly become very important in your life. For me, the most important was I couldn't get to work. And of course, this was when I was diagnosed. It was 2013 13:42 we weren't talking about work from home. It wasn't a thing. All I knew was I wasn't able to get to work. Nobody had a good plan for me. Nobody could give me a suggestion. It was just, well maybe apply for disability. And I said, No, I don't want disability. I have a career. I would like to continue moving forward, please. 14:03 So I had to really pivot and try to think about, well, what does my life look like if I can't leave my house? Because even on my best days, sometimes I just could not leave the house before noon. You know, 14:16 it was just my it was my reality. I did find my own accommodations, and I didn't know that word in that sense back then, accommodation again, I never said the D word, so I didn't need to learn about the a word. I was just moving through everything. Nothing to see here. Everything's fine. 14:35 But I did find my own accommodations. You know, I would work 14:40 from home, I often would just bring my laptop into the bathroom with me and just keep plugging away. 14:47 You know, I just did whatever I needed to do to figure it out. I 14:51 made all my appointments, meetings, things like that I had to do outside of the house in the afternoons, where I typically felt much better. So I did find a way to work around. 15:00 Bit. I actually never had to really confront the D word until five years ago I started, I thought I was an over training syndrome. I started having these terrible joint and muscle pains, and I couldn't run, which is very unusual for me. I could run through anything, even through the worst, well, maybe not the worst of my currents, but I ran through a lot, but I just suddenly couldn't run it. I'd been training for Iron Man Chattanooga, so 15:27 it was unusual. And that started a period of 19 months where I slowly declined until I was paralyzed. For a short period of time, I was dealing with severe, severe muscle pain, joint pain, rashes. My brain was fried. I had crazy. I mean, 15:46 I couldn't think. I couldn't, you know, I 15:49 had trouble with words, crazy, emotional, 15:54 just swings, just swings. I've never experienced anything like it in my life. And that's when I finally found out that I'd been having a reaction to the HUMIRA I took for my Crohn's disease, 16:06 and it really knocked me down even still. I did not want to say the D word, even though I had been completely wiped out, I had not been able to move. I had been bed bound for a period of time. 16:18 I thought, well, this is fine. I'm on the upswing. I'll I'll be okay. Of course, that actually kicked off about another 16:28 two and a half years I spent finally getting to a diagnosis, and I was diagnosed with dysautonomia, pots, cardiac autonomic neuropathy, small fiber neuropathy in all limbs. It really has changed my life. And I finally realized it's time to say the D word. It is time to say the D word. And when I said the D word, I realized, you know, 16:53 I'm not the only person going through this, and there really is nobody giving us any directions. There's no help. I kept asking, Hey, what do I do? What do I do? How do I get through this? And there was nowhere, really. I found anybody to help me, to guide me, to help me figure it out. It was well, if you can't get to work, just apply for disability. I didn't want disability. I wanted to work. 17:19 So what happens when you know this happens to you, and you know, I really thought to myself, my goodness, I am a pushy broad, you know, I'm going to get what I want to get. It's real hard to tell me no. 17:34 So if I'm going through this and having this many challenges, what about the people who just don't want to push back, who hear no and say, Okay, well, if they said no, that's it, you know, who's helping these people? And that's what made me really question things. And made me say the D word, made me ask myself, what are people doing when they become disabled? What do these accommodations really mean? What are companies actually doing? Because, you know? I mean, I have two master's degrees. I think of a, you know, decently intelligent person. I have some great experience. And I was like, Where do I go? So, you know, there's a lot of people out there, I'm sure, who are saying, hey, what next? And 18:17 are people really doing a lot for accommodations to help people who really have changed their entire life and now need a new career and they don't want to go on disability. And I think that's the biggest message I try to send to people. You know, there's this idea out there, particularly, probably, if you've never been ill, disabled, have anybody like that in your life where you think, oh, welfare, all these people just trying to get money from the government so they can do nothing. Well, I meet people every day who are like, hey, is there a way I can get off of this and get back to work? I'd love to hear, 18:53 yeah. I'd love to talk a little bit about the medical model and social model of disability and impairment, the relationship between impairment and disability, and just get your take on it. So obviously, you're deeply embedded in a medical model. 19:09 When my retina is detached, I was operated on multiple times, and I can remember the students coming one by one, the look in my eyes, I was very much enmeshed in a medical model, and that's still the most common model of disability in United States, which, you know, bluntly says, Hey, if you have, if you have an impairment that we can't fix, you're you're a broken person. You know, you're less than there's no way you can contribute on the level of someone who doesn't have this impairment. So like you said, just, just take the disability check. The social model says 19:53 disability comes when we have challenges interacting with the environment because of the way it's. 20:00 Built so the built environment, the digital environment, the social environment, you know, but not not surprised, like constructed mainly by and for people without impairments. And if we have an impairment, like you have to show up nine to five to work. You're not able to do that. You have a situation where your set of physical characteristics does not fit well with the built environment of the workplace that requires you to be there at nine in the morning. Right? The relationship 20:33 between impairment and disabilities? I have a visual impairment. So it's visual, hearing, physical, cognitive are kind of the four main categories of impairment, and you described a lot of physical impairments around pain and joints and the inability to be as independently active as you were in the past. So 21:00 just because I have a visual impairment does not mean I'm always in a disabling situation. And my little example I always use is, you know, I ran a couple big nonprofits. If I'm at the conference table, I'm running a board meeting, and I have all my materials in Braille. I can read that Braille just as well as a sighted person can read print. I can run the meeting. I'm not in a disabling situation at all, even though I can't see if you hand me a stack of print that I can't read, then I'm in a disabling situation. I can't run the meeting because of my impairment. So 21:37 you know, in your case, I'm sure that di obviously, the dynamics are are somewhat different. But you know, you have an you have impairments 21:48 which are restrictive in some situations and not in others. And I just, you know, my my job, and I think yours, is to decrease the number of disabling situations that people with impairments are placed in by making the world more flexible, more inclusive, 22:11 and you just talked about employment, and people trying to move off of that transfer payment From the government get back in into productive employment activity. That's what I focus on as well. And I know you are. This is a, this is a pretty big leap from someone who couldn't say the word disability three years ago to someone who's chair of the state of Virginia rehabilitation advisory council. So I I'd love to hear how you You've obviously accelerated your thinking, your activity, your attitudes, and would would love to hear a little bit more about that part of the journey. 22:52 Well, I, you know, I think, I think that's probably the most important part of the journey. Honestly, 22:58 there's been a lot of work that's gone into getting my physical to a good place. There's been a lot of work getting to medical diagnosis, getting to a treatment plan, but there's a mental and emotional component that's really difficult to overcome, and it's the component that's not treated first, as a matter of fact, it's really an afterthought. I've so much I've gone through over these years. I've had one doctor, just one, ask me if I've gotten therapy, because I've been through a lot of trauma, just one, and I have been through a lot of trauma that that's a lot of trauma. 23:38 We should be thinking about things like that, and when I finally took that time to recognize that I needed to take care of my mental health as well, it was not just about me losing my physical health, that's when it forced me to really think about, 23:56 you know, what does this mean? What have I gone through and for me and everybody processes things differently, you 24:05 know, I think there's just that army spirit that's always going to be in me. I grew up a navy brat, you know, I commissioned in the army. I always joke that I went from one part of the military to another seamlessly. I was a military dependent, and then I walked across that stage to get my degree from University and walked to the other side of campus to commission as Second Lieutenant Baker in the US Army. But there is, you know, a huge component of service, you know, and it's just not something we talk about enough service. What does it really mean? Leadership. We do a lot in the army around leadership. What does being a leader truly mean? And that means you reach out and you help the people around you, especially the people who are depending on you. And as I was going through this, this emotional, mental process, you know, I realized that you. 25:00 It doesn't matter how tough a cookie you are, you can easily be broken, 25:05 and somebody does have it worse. It does not negate what I'm going through. But at that moment, I realized, if I'm suffering, what else is going on? And that did part of my healing process was going around and finding out, what are other people experiencing? What are you going through? What kind of help do you need? Because at the end of the day, I've lost a lot. I lost a career I loved. I lost my athletic ability, which I loved. But I do have a very lovely savings account. I have money coming in each and every month. I have a husband who makes plenty of money he could easily take care of both of us, even if I didn't already have that nice bank account. I have two forms of health insurance. You know, all of these things give me the ability to fight through diagnosis the way I did. It gave me that ability to heal, to focus on rehab. And there's so many people who are going through this with nothing, and they're trying to figure out how they get through an illness or a new disability and pay rent, and if you can't get to work because you've been in an accident and you have a job that is very physical, 26:15 well how are you going to pay rent to be able to go to the doctor? And if you just lost your job, where's your health insurance? So there's all of these things that other people are going through. And I thought, You know what? Let me find out what's going on there, and that will be a part of my way of healing, is to reach out and see what I can do for others, because I have the privilege and the capability to do so. And I think that's what really got me to embrace disability, because I realized that disability could be anything if it's preventing you from being able to perform at full capacity, you have a disability. Think about it like your golf handicap. What's going on? You know? What do we need to do to get you to the next place and understanding it that disability was not about my own personal failures, it was about my current situation and how I can overcome that, to be able to live the life that I would like to or need to, or just bridge that gap. You know, what do I need to not be disabled in this moment? And how can I help others to get to that next place? And that's really why I love the mission of the state's rehabilitation councils. Nobody had ever talked to me about this. I'd never heard of it. I don't think most people have. I spend, you know, if anybody's ever been on the internet pretty late and there's this crazy lady saying, Hey, let me see if I can help you to rehab into a new career. That's probably me, you know. Um, I'm always, you know, Hey, did you have you ever heard of a rehabilitation Council? No, I have not, 27:43 but it is important, because these things, this is how people this is how people are failed, whether you know on the social, even though there needs to be a stronger glue between the social and the medical aspect, I feel every doctor's office should have information on how to rehabilitate your career? Should you become career disabled? 28:05 Because everybody needs that help. We need that help. You know, we need especially in the United States, where most people need their job to keep their insurance. How am I supposed to get myself well if I don't have my insurance? You know, it's chicken before the eggs. So 28:20 putting these together and finding ways to bridge, put these bridges out there for people who need them. I just felt it was so important. So now I'm very proud to say I'm disabled, and I say it as much as I can. I'm very upfront and open, because I know that if I say I'm disabled and that I can help others to also find those accommodations so that you're not disabled in this particular Yeah, 28:48 do you primarily work with individuals, Brandy or organizations, or both, 28:53 both mostly organizations. Right now, in the near future, what I'm putting together is an advisory service to go in and help companies put together wellness programs. There's so many, there's so much great research out there showing that if you put in wellness programs for your employees, you have employees that are first, more productive, and second, you keep them, which you know, anybody who's worked in business knows retention, that's that's a big number. You know, constantly having an employee overturned is very costly. And when I looked at the number of women, especially leaving the workforce, who are very skilled workers, where this is these are mostly women in their 40s and 50s who suddenly are just like me, suddenly find yourself with a severe autoimmune disease, and you can't find an accommodation to help you get through it all at work, and companies are losing this talent. And I've heard companies say over and over again, why are we losing these people? And I say, Well, it's because they're now chronically ill, and you need some programs to help keep them in place. You. 30:00 And these programs can help. 30:03 You know, I can't change everything. I mean, my joints are going to hurt forever, but we can put in programs in place at work to help to accommodate those issues. 30:15 Flexibility I'm really worried about. You know, we love to swing a pendulum here in the United States, don't we? And we went to all 30:24 work from home. Now there seems to be this big push. Well, let's just get everybody back to the office. Well, 30:32 guys, I think we can find something in between, because hybrid work really does work, and some people don't even need to be in an office at all right, the most common, helpful accommodation across all categories of disability is a flexible work schedule, yep, and that doesn't cost a penny, not not a bit, and it does so much for diversity. When we talk about, I refuse to stop talking diversity, I will admit that there are some problems with diversity in most companies, and that's a topic we could certainly discuss at length. 31:10 But real, true diversity, including people from various backgrounds and disabilities, really do contribute to the bottom line of companies. They really 31:19 do contribute to a more well rounded workforce. So I think we really don't want to throw out that kind of a benefit when looking at this, you know, return to office. You know, maybe hybrid work does work best for certain people. Let's, you know, talk about how that could be done. Well, yes, well, people have got a little taste of who you are and what you do and what what you're focusing on. This half hour has flown by, but I would love to have you let folks know how they can get in touch with you. Certainly, my podcast is living chronic on all platforms, and my website is brandichs.com 32:02 that's S, C, H, A, n, t, z, 32:06 brandys.com 32:07 and you can find my podcast, a lot of my advocacy work I'm doing, and of course, my consulting business, Schantz business group, where I'm always ready to help get People to that next level and live a better life while disabled and for companies, of course, meeting that 32:28 higher goal of diversity hiring. 32:31 Fabulous. On me. You can find me on LinkedIn, Kirk Adams PhD, or my website is Dr Kirk adams.com Your Kirk adams.com and I'm sure Brandy, and I know I would be pleased to speak with anyone who's listening about accelerating inclusion of people with disabilities and supporting people with disabilities and finding situations where they can thrive. Yes, Brandy, really appreciate you and our friendship and our collegial professional relationship and our joint dedication to disability advocacy and activism. So wonderful to spend time with you today. I really appreciate you. Thank you so much. 33:18 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot drkirk adams.com, 33:31 together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time. Keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

On this episode of Podcasts with Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk sits down with ISDI co-founders Barbara Deane and Effenus Henderson to explore how the Institute for Sustainable Diversity & Inclusion is helping organizations move "from better arguments to better outcomes." The trio trace their shared history on Washington State's Governor's Committee on Disability Issues and Employment, then dive into the origins of the Northwest Diversity Learning Series, why 2025's sessions are built around the Aspen Institute's Better Arguments Framework, and how ISO 30415, the Global DEI Benchmarks and intercultural-competence research shape ISDI's evidence-based approach.   Listeners will hear candid stories of corporate triumphs and HR "sticky situations," learn how sponsors co-design each year's curriculum, and discover practical ways to tackle today's backlash against DEI while keeping accessibility and systemic equity front-and-center. Whether you're an HR leader seeking new tools, a manager craving civil discourse, or a changemaker looking for a community of practice, this conversation offers both inspiration and a clear on-ramp to the 2025 NWDLS workshops. Tune in, take notes, and join the movement toward sustainable inclusion.   TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1  00:09 Music. Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   Speaker 2  00:37 welcome everybody to the cleverly titled podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, and that is me. I am Dr Kirk Adams, speaking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have two amazing guests, Barbara Dean and Ethan is Henderson. I'm going to tell you how we all got connected in a minute, and then ask them about their incredible journeys. Some years ago, when I was in the role of president and CEO of the satellite House for the Blind, before moving to New York and assuming that same role at American Foundation for the Blind, I was contacted by the transition team for Governor Jay Inslee when he was first elected and asked to serve on his transition team, and shortly thereafter, once he was installed as our governor, asked to join the Governor's Committee on disability issues and employment. And I don't remember FNS if it was the transition team or the Governor's Committee or the Governor's Committee, okay, but you and I spent a lot of time together, yes, and a lot of meetings, and I took a lot of notes whenever you talked, because you had a very deep knowledge about disability inclusion and Federal, State and local policies and the history of diversity, equity, inclusion, and I learned so much from you. And then, of course, in 2016 my wife and I relocated to New York City, and then Washington, DC, as I had the privilege and honor of leading the American Foundation for the Blind Helen Keller's organization through through a transition and a restructuring. And then when I had accomplished what I set out to accomplish, there, I returned home to our cozy little house here in Les, and I decided that I was ready to not lead an organization of that size and scope again. And I love nonprofits. I love nonprofit boards, but I was ready not to report to a nonprofit board for a while, so I decided to strike out on my own and just look for, I say, fun, innovative, high impact projects that would accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities and to work with people I really like. So that's what I'm doing now, and as I followed a blueprint that I discovered on how to launch a consulting business that said, reactivate your network and reach out to people that you trust, admire and respect, tell them what you're doing. So that's when I reached out to effin us on LinkedIn, and said, Remember me from the Governor's Committee. I'm back, and I'm looking for fun, innovative, high impact projects. And he introduced me to Barbara Dean, and Barbara, I think you have, might have got me my first paid training opportunity with Delta Dental of Washington. And I had a chance to talk to all of their HR professionals across their network about disability inclusion on a virtual Zoom meeting. And they asked me how much I would charge. I didn't really know what to say, so I said something, and they paid that was, that was the start of my consulting practice. So I think I have you you to thank Barbara for getting that ball rolling. That sounds good. Yeah. Fast forward a year and a half or so, and fell, fell into deeper conversation about Barbara and FNS, and learned about the Institute for Sustainable diversity and inclusion, which we all fondly call is di and the amazing history of the nonprofit is the place it has held in Our community, not only in Seattle, but nationally, the amazing board members and their their depth and breadth of knowledge and experience, and although I swore I would never join another board again, I have happily and graciously and with great gratitude. Um. Been elected to serve on the board of the Institute for Sustainable diversity inclusion is di and we are really in the right place at the right time, our community, our country, our society, needs organizations and expertise and leaders that we can rally around and catalyze as we pursue our quest for social justice and fairness and equity. And is di has a lot of experience and history in that space. So we are boldly proclaiming we are here, and we want you to join us and organize and catalyze and learn, and we do have a series of learning opportunities coming up that we'll talk about later. But for now, I would love to just get a taste for from you, Barbara and effin us about your journeys in this space. You are both social justice warriors, and you've done all every time we talk you, something new comes up that you've done a group, you've been involved with a committee, you've been on a some vital foundational documents you've crafted. So I think Barbara, if you, if you would give us the tour,   06:27 tour of your life,   Speaker 2  06:32 and what, what brought you to this point with, with being a leader, at at ISD, and really being having such clarity that is di is such a vital resource   06:43 for our community. Sure,   Speaker 3  06:45 you know the way that you described our connection, where I connected you with Delta Dental for your first consulting gig. So those are the kinds of connections I've been making since about 1988 so in 1988 my husband and business partner and I launched a newsletter, one of the first newsletters in the country on workforce diversity, and it the first The first name was training and culture newsletter. That didn't inspire anybody very much. But about three years in, we changed the name to cultural diversity at work, and it just took off. And also, there was just a, you know, there was, there was something happening in the country with organizations realizing that the workforce was, was just becoming much more diverse, and they needed they needed help. They needed information. They needed guidance on how to be effective with this, this workforce. So I started my career in this space, although it's hard, you know, it's hard to pinpoint the starting of a career, because careers develop over time. And that's also another little, little thing I have in my background is that I've been a career development advisor and coach so and I've developed and taught career planning courses. So I'm going to go way, way, way back, because I think this, I think it's fundamental what happens to you in your growing up years. And so my parents were from New England, moved to Ohio, and they basically were were in a cross cultural experience, because life and culture in New England and Massachusetts was very different from Northwestern Ohio. And my father used to say that that the personalities of the people in Ohio were about as flat as the land. And that was just his way of describing difference, right? Because he had been raised in Massachusetts, of course, where there are mountains and hills and valleys and and he just found, you know, that people were different in Ohio. And this is this is true all across our country. So I had my experience in my own family of difference, and then I was introduced to cultural differences by my parents with the National Geographic magazine. So that magazine coming into our home, and in those days, we didn't have television, so magazines were, were, you know, they were a vehicle, a window into the larger world. And I became very, very interested in all the people that were in the National Geographic Magazine. Mean, so you know, this is, this is how you get started on a on a career track. And so as I went to school, I just began asking questions about cultural differences. I remember at Ohio State University I was, I was in a class on organizational communication, and the young, ta, very smart guy, I said, How do you know these models and these theories work in in an organization in Mexico, for example? And he couldn't answer the question. And so I just kept asking those kinds of questions. I had just been sensitized to cultural differences, and it made me ask different kinds of questions. So when I got to the University of Washington, and I was a TA in as a teaching intercult interpersonal communication. I asked my advisors, Gary D'Angelo for one, Jon Stewart for the other. I said, you know, you're teaching a a type of communication, a style of communication, but it's really a white middle class style. Do Are you? Are you aware that you're doing that? Well, they had no awareness whatsoever. And so I designed this exercise in my class. Scared my advisors after death, but I designed this exercise about how white people talk. And I asked my my class, which was 30% people of color, international students, I asked them to help me, help us understand that these differences in communication. And so they agreed to go on videotape, and they talked about their experience of communicating with white people in the United States, particularly, you know, often white middle class people, and we use that as an exercise to learn about communication and to learn that about learn that we had been we had been taught a style of communicating, and that style was connected to our our economic level, it was connected to our racial and cultural makeup. It was connected to gender. There were just all kinds of connections. And so I just, you know, I just began asking the question, how, how would a cultural lens inform this exercise from a DI in a different way? And so, so, you know, that takes me to about 1988 when I got pulled into a a training effort at the University of Washington. There had been a racial incident in the dental school, and the dean of the dental school and the staff training development person agreed that there should be an innovation intervention and there should be education. And so I became one of the trainers in that effort to try and help people understand why, why making fun of black people wasn't necessarily a, you know, a respectful idea and and as I watched this whole project evolve and develop, I just had all kinds of questions, how do you know this intervention is going to work? How do you know people respond to this kind of thing? And I I just began asking questions, and one day on the bus, I was sitting there and saying, You know what? I bet I'm not the only person with these questions. I bet there are people all over the world that have these questions. What if we did a newsletter about this kind of and that's how the newsletter got started. That was the, you know, the initial push for it, and, and we began publishing in 1988 and then I began, you know, living my life on the telephone, because in an email at that time, or, or zoom, and living my life on the telephone answering people's questions. You know, what? What does, what does diversity mean? Why are, why are we doing this? What? What? What benefit does it have to our organization and and so as people called me with their questions, every question was an article. And so we began publishing in 1988 began publishing about diversity in the workforce, what that meant, and so I spent 10 years doing that, and then in 1998 a colleague of mine decided to form the Northwest Diversity Learning Series with some key Companies and organizations here in the greater Seattle area, and then this became a a community. I always called it, and it's a it's an employee, it's an employer venture on leveraging, leveraging diversity, because all the employers wanted to understand this. Thing, how it affected them, and so we joined together, and we started teaching ourselves, and that's how the Northwest Diversity Learning Series got   Speaker 2  15:07 started, and it still continues to this day,   Speaker 3  15:11 continues to this day, 27 years. Good for you,   15:16 and that's an us,   Speaker 4  15:19 yes. Well, let me just start by saying that I've originally from North Carolina, grew up on a tobacco farm with my siblings, all 11 of them, eight, eight brothers and three sisters, and in a household where at the age of 13, my mom died from lupus, and so we had to help carry out. My father kept us together. So it was a story about survival, resilience and kind of looking forward in terms of our life stories. Mike,   15:53 where were you? Where were you in the birth order,   15:54 number five. Number five,   Speaker 4  15:57 I was I was in the middle. So about that time, you know, some of the things that teenagers would do, like play basketball and, you know, do those kinds of things, I was not able to do that, because we had kind of the dual role of, kind of the the elder sibling, right? So you had to help out, because the older ones had left a home and so forth. And so I went on to college, and during my couple of years, during the summers, I worked, this is where I got exposed to people impacted by disability. Disabilities I worked for in the summer at a program at   16:38 o'bara Training Center, which was a   Speaker 4  16:41 residential facility for kids with learning disabilities and so forth, and so it was kind of it was my first experience and exposure to that. I went on and graduated college in North Carolina, North Carolina, Central University. I met my wife there, and we got married, and I wasn't out looking when I was a senior in college, because I was, unfortunately, one of the ones with a very low draft lottery number. So I assumed that I would get drafted upon graduation, and as luck would have it, the the draft was ended the week I graduate, and so I and I'd already gone and taken the physical, and was prepared to go into the service, but I didn't want to go, because of all that was going on during that time, but I knew that I I would have to, so I went and ventured and out, and I went back home and worked with my dad for a couple of years in terms of helping to support the family, and Helen and I got married, I started a job in in North Carolina as a resource research assistance for a community action agency, Executive Director and and that's where I started to get really a little bit more indoctrinated into social justice, equity, diversity. That was a diversity at the time, was more social justice and civil rights and so forth, and community action, things to do, to engage with the communities so forth. And I, someone saw me and said, I think you could do this regional job for an organization. It was called the Nusa river regional development planning agency, and they were creating a new program for assistance with the senior citizens and so forth. They said you'd be a natural to help, help out, shape this group up and get them going. And so I think I probably did a job so well that they didn't like the fact at that time, it was more of an economic development. Maybe we're moving too fast with that. So I left that, but I remember it exposed me to working with people older and needing different kinds of care and so forth, so in terms of generational that helped me kind of get that type of perspective. Someone there, a friend of mine, saw me and said, there's a job for a personnel rep at warehouse or company and you you might be perfect for the role that they're looking for. They were looking for like a entry level personnel rep to do a lot of recruiting and so forth in North Carolina. In North Carolina, okay, so I applied, and was off, offered the job on the spot, and I worked in Plymouth, North Carolina, very small rural community, and one of the things that I learned while I worked there as a representative was perceptions that appearances and so forth. And I recall having a friend of mine come to visit me. He happened to be a local reporter for television station. And and he drove up in his car with all of the signage on the side of the car. And I didn't realize that he did that in terms of what he came in, but I went into my office and shut the door and all panic. It started to happen in in the office, because people didn't know exactly what I was doing, and they were still very sensitive about racial issues, because the plant itself had one side of it was heavily populated by African Americans, and the other side was white. One was the pulp paper mill, which was the higher paying jobs, and the sawmill, the lumber mill and Timberlands, was the side where more of the African American employees. So it started to give me a sense of social justice, and why, why were some people on one side and the other So, and there wasn't an agreement with the government that, that, you know, they changed that, you know, there was a conciliation agreement of sorts. And so I was brought in to help with that whole transition and that process as well. And then from there, I started to do more college recruiting. I i recall that in a meeting I was at, one of the vice presidents came down to visit and was talking about all of the things that the company was doing to support affirmative action at that time, and so in equal employment opportunity, and they he was just talking about how, how well they felt about what they were doing. And I think I remember raising my hands, excuse me, but I don't happen to see any of these people you're talking about? Can you illuminate on some of whom these people are? Because, quite frankly, I haven't seen them, and I'd like to know, and it stumbled him, because he couldn't come up with an answer, right? But two weeks later, I got offered a job to come to Seattle, and so I came to Seattle as the college relations and recruiting manager, where I over saw the company's college relations program and summer internship programs for the entire company and all of its operations and so forth for a couple of years. And I wanted to then shift into more of a generalist role, because that was a specialty role. And so I was recruited back to New Jersey for warehousing to head up our regional sales office Human Resource Function. So I worked there. And then several years later, I got promoted back to Seattle as the overall HR director for that division and so forth. And from there, I moved into an international role where I was the international HR director, and that was during the early 80s, and I attribute a lot of the growth in the understanding about diversity, to a conversation I had with a person by the name of Louis Briggs. And I still am in contact and work with him on issues today. Louis Griggs is out. Was out of the San Francisco area. He and his wife, Lenny Copeland, had had wanted to produce a series on going international. In fact, they had, had written and done that. And he was marketing this cassette series on, you know, intercultural, cross cultural, going international types of activities. And so I was saying, gee, there's some similarities in terms of civil rights and affirmative action and so forth. And so we got, I say, You should do a series like that, but more specifically focused on diversity issues. And so he went back, and we actually helped us to fund the series on valuing diversity, which was kind of one of the first video series, things of this nature, which got sold to a number of major corporations. And I think that's when that whole transition from affirmative action and compliance related work in this area started to blossom and so so so fast forward, back until the late 1990s i i was in the international role, and I moved we went through a process of what we call organization redesign, and I was on a redesign team for the HR function. And during that time, we created three basic categories within HR, one around shared services, where a lot of the transactional work was being centralized because of the emergent technology that was coming on board with PeopleSoft and systems like that, and the strategic partners, where we elevated. The role of HR professionals in the business to become strategic partners with their businesses. And then Centers of Expertise. We had several Centers of Expertise, like learning and development, training and education, recruiting, diversity and so forth. And so I was tapped to be the head of the the recruiting, staffing and Diversity Center of expertise and with the staff and so forth. So we worked there, and then as diversity became even more of a priority for the company, they decided that they wanted to and I lobbied for the creation of a Chief Diversity Officer role. And I remember my boss at the time saying, oh, that's kind of a laughable idea. What's that all about? We don't know what what that is, and it was kind of the infant stages of the function and the role. And Barbara will know two people, Fred Miller and Judith Katz, were the consultants that we had brought in to help work with the leadership team to do that, but since that time, and actually they decided to do it, we we created what we call a framework that's in terms of the pillars of action that we would take to to expedite the work In diversity, equity, inclusion, and how it fits Weyerhaeuser, and we did that, but one of the things we learned from that we didn't engage leadership in the way that we felt we should. And so we went back around and talked to leaders and had them do do more work, and we were probably one of the first companies to have a diversity as a part of the criteria for management incentive bonus programs based on, you know, achieving certain results in terms of workforce representation change in areas where they were substantially underutilized in their businesses and so forth. So we, we were the first to kind of do that kind of effort. So I worked in that role up until my retirement in 2013 that's when Barbara twisted my hand and said, Let's, let's form the Institute for Sustainable diversity and inclusion.   Speaker 2  27:16 So the Northwest Diversity Learning Series came for the formation of Disney, it   Speaker 4  27:21 did. It absolutely did. Yeah, Barbara had done that. And the discussion we'd had it had Barbara had moved it over to Bill hertan, who managed it for a few years, and then it moved from there to archbrite. At the time Barbara, I think it was the employers, Employers Association of Washington. Is that right? That's correct, yes. And so the question that Barbara and I grappled with, is this a profit making entity that we're going to create, or is it a nonprofit? And we both agreed we thought a nonprofit fit better, and so we went through the process of incorporating and founding the organization, and that's what we've been doing since that time. The other thing that I do, just as an aside, I am also and it's a fairly significant commitment, is that I am the CEO of my own consulting practice. Hinder works which I do, consulting work. My principal sector is the architectural industry, and have been providing a lot of support to architectural firms in terms of some of their HR and di work and so forth. So that's in a nutshell.   28:36 That's a bit that's a big nut.   Speaker 2  28:41 So, so Barbara, do you recall how you first encountered his work and what led you to, what led you to twist his arm? And, well,   Speaker 3  28:51 I had, we were reaching out to companies and organizations to join the series, and so I think effin is was still in the recruiting position, and so we reached out to Weyerhaeuser to join the series, and he, he's the one that that brought, you know, Weyerhaeuser in as the sponsor of the series. And then, then, you know, things developed, and he became the chief diversity officer. So, one of the things that we did with the series, and it was just a natural as part of the beginning, is we had this network of the the the diversity leaders and practitioners and organizations, and we would meet in the afternoons of the the series sessions in the morning. So the series was a bi monthly series. So there was a workshop every other month. And so this group of people started getting together, meeting in the afternoon to discuss what happened in the morning and to discuss our work. And that that group became a fundamental. Uh, part of the success of the Northwest Diversity Learning Series, because we were, we were learning as professionals in this field, and it was emerging field, you know, it was not, it was not established at time. And so, so I got to know efnes, I started working with him, and we stayed in touch. And then, when, when archbrite decided, I think both of us were, we were starting to meet with archbrite Just to help them with the series. And then, then they asked us if we would take it over. And so,   Speaker 2  30:38 so that's I was when I was the My role at President CEO, the Lighthouse for the Blind here in Seattle, we we engaged we called it Washington employers, the right precursor to archbish. We engaged them on a couple sticky HR situations. I value I value them. Yeah, yeah. So the Northwest Diversity Learning Series that's happening here in 2025 that people listening to this podcast can join in on and learn. It's very interesting and something new. I'm learning the first session with Michael Ressler from the Aspen Institute. We learned about a framework called the better arguments framework. And I know you chose that very intentionally to align with our turbulent argumentative times. So, you know, I'd like, I'd love to hear your take on how you chose the thematic structure around the better arguments framework. And if you could talk about the upcoming series events so people can get a taste of what they they they can take advantage of   31:45 if they so choose.   Speaker 3  31:48 Well, we were looking for we we had so we meet with our sponsors in the summertime to figure out what we're going to do next. And that's been going on for 27 years, meeting and making these decisions. And so in our meetings, in in in 2024 it was we got some real clear direction from some of our folks that they they felt that their people needed help communicating about these contentious issues. And so I'm, my background is, is in interpersonal communication. So I've had a lot of training and conflict resolution communication models, and I just didn't think that they were, you know, what we wanted. And so we began looking at all kinds of things, searching. And one day I came upon the better arguments project. And I thought, Hmm, that's really interesting. So that the the the mover and shaker of the better arguments project is a man by the name of Eric Liu, and he comes out of, I believe, Microsoft. And he, he had the view that that we needed. We didn't need to stop arguing. We needed better arguments. We needed to understand, you know, to be able to articulate why we felt the way we did. And so I just started reading up on him and the better arguments project. We called Michael Ressler. We talked with him. He went through it with us, and then he finally agreed to do the first session. So the the first session really laid the foundation for, you know, what is the what is the better arguments framework? How do you have better arguments? So, the the better arguments framework is built on, on three dimensions and five principles. So the three dimensions are, you have to, you have to pay attention to the these fundamental parts of every argument, which is historical context, emotional intelligence and power dynamics. And then, so that's the context that you work with. And then the better arguments process is based on five principles, and that is, take winning off the table, prioritize relationships, listen passionately, pay attention to context, embrace vulnerability and make room to transform. So we just thought this was a really good model for talking about contentious issues. And we we came up with a whole list of contentious issues in our society. At the moment, there's no shortage. And so our process was narrowing down what was, what were the, what were the issues that we really wanted to to talk about. And so we we've we finally decided on on five topics. We decided to do five workshops this year, three special events. Because there's so much turmoil, we wanted to have a little bit more on flexibility and nimbleness in responding to things as they they come up. So we did, we did our foundation session on the better arguments framework in February. Library are in March. In March, we did a session called di business strategies, needed or not, and we recruited the whole is the board who have incredible experience. And we did the session about, you know, why? Why diversity anyway? Why? Why is it needed? And that was that was illuminating. It was illuminating just in our conversations with the board as we prepared this session, we learned as we prepared this topic. So it was, it was an excellent session. And then so the next one coming up is may 14, and that is, immigrants. Do they take jobs away from US citizens? And I was just reading the New York Times yesterday, and sure enough, this trope, you know, somebody who's being interviewed says, you know, immigrants take jobs away from from US citizens. You know, it's when you really probe into that question. That's not really what happens. But you know, people, this is, this is the story that gets told. So we have a wonderful presenter who's has, you know, great experience working with immigrants in the country and and she's going to do our session. Her name is Jess Galvan and she's the daughter of Mexican American immigrants in this country. So, and then our last, our topic in September is meritocracy, that that is all over the place. I mean, you hear it every day. And then the final one is racism re examined. Is it over or not? And I think that will be very interesting. We've got, we've got a really excellent presenter for that one, and really helping people have some conversations about racism in a different way. So we're, we're really excited about this series, and it's an opportunity for people to learn to have conversations and and, and, you know, one of one of our participants had the experience. She took the better arguments framework to have a conversation with a family member and a friend, both of political persuasions, and she was surprised and pleased at how well the better arguments, framework and process work for her. They could have, they could have a meaningful conversation so it, you know, it does work.   Speaker 2  37:19 And the remaining sessions of the learning series will amplify and dig deeper into the better arguments framework, right? That's the structure   Speaker 3  37:28 each session is based on the better arguments framework. So each presenter has to work with that framework. So we work, we're working very hard with all of them to follow this process. We designed a an outline that they will follow. So, you know, we really structured this so that the framework would get used every single session, so people get, you know, multiple times to learn it and practice it.   37:57 Yeah, the   Speaker 2  38:00 the people listening who want to join in and learn the better arguments framework and dig into the topics of the learning series. How do people get involved? How do people sign up? People   Speaker 3  38:12 register. They can go to the ISD website, Ifor, sdi.org, and just registers a registration tab, and they can register right there. I   Speaker 2  38:23 numeral 4s, di Institute for Sustainable diversity and inclusion. That is so I didn't know Eric Lew was involved in better arguments framework. I know Eric, yeah. I know he started citizen University. That's right. I know he served, served our nation, the Clinton administration, at least as a domestic policy advisor, correct? He did. He's got a great TED talk. Yeah, I didn't realize that today. I learned something new every day. So good learning. You mentioned sponsors. You mentioned getting together with sponsors last summer to design the 2025, learning series. So tell me a little bit about sponsors, and who, who are sponsors, who should be sponsors, and what, what do, uh, sponsors do for the   39:13 cause? Definitely want to take that one. Why   39:17 don't you go ahead and take that one as well.   Speaker 4  39:21 But what I will say is that each year, we try to come up with themes and topics that resonate with our sponsors. And what we generally do is we put together a packet of information that talks about, you know what, what we're proposing for the series we invite, and the what we're proposing is based on the discussion, the conversations with representatives from the sponsoring organizations. We have several, we have several levels of sponsorship for companies and nonprofits and. We share what that looks like and what's available as a part of that, we've had sponsors in the past that have ranged from Nordstrom, which has been a significant signature sponsor for a number of years, others, like the Boeing company warehouse, has been in and out as well Alaska Airlines. So we actually, during the fall of the year identify the sponsors that we go out and share with them what we're planning and doing and invite them to join the series at one of the sponsorship level. They're different levels, and each level represents the number of people that could be invited to a particular session and so forth. Okay,   Speaker 2  40:44 so if I'm a sponsor that gives me the opportunity to invite my employees, my stakeholders, my donors, my board members, whoever my stakeholders may be, absolutely coming and experience the Learning Series. Okay,   40:58 right? Barbara, is there anything I missed?   Speaker 3  41:03 No, I just Yeah. I just want to emphasize that sponsorships have never been just about providing money from the very get go. We wanted sponsorships to be tied to people coming to and learning in the sessions. So every sponsorship you get X number of seats for your employees and managers, and they the series became, over time, a really strong resource for training and educating employees, diversity councils, Employee Resource Groups, employee business groups and managers. So So one of the things that that the the employees would often say is say our our supervisors need to be in this training, our managers need to be in this training. So so we went back to the sponsor, and they said, This is the kind of feedback we're getting from our, you know, your employees that are attending the sessions. And so I said, What if we, what if we make a concerted effort to recruit and get more more sponsors or more managers into these sessions? And that did happen. And so our most recent data is about 40% of the attendees are managers.   Speaker 2  42:20 Great, but any individual can attend. Don't need to be affiliated with a sponsor. You   Speaker 3  42:26 do not need to be affiliated with a sponsor. So if you go to register on the website, those are, that's, those are individual seats that you're purchasing. And also, I want to make sure that people understand that, that, you know, we've we have to collect a certain amount of money to stay solvent, but also we, we've offered lower pricing for nonprofits. We've ordered, offered lower pricing for tribal members, lower pricing for retirees, and lower prices for students. So we have, with our sponsor support, we are able to offer some lower rates for people in you know, not affiliated with organizations or organizations that are non profit.   43:09 That's That's fabulous. So   Speaker 4  43:12 what one of the other things I'd just like to point out too that's important that the series has been evolving over the years for a number of the years, in fact, up until COVID, all of the sessions were held in person at Nordstrom downtown, and they were very gracious host and sponsor for the series. When COVID hit, we had to kind of talk about, well, why do we what are we got to do now, right? And so we decided that we were going to go virtual. We weren't sure, unsure. We weren't too sure about it, but we did, and we found that by by going virtually, a lot of folks like that, there is kind of the loss of the personal interaction, and so, so we're trying to evaluate that, but for the distant future. This this venue allows a lot of folks to participate, who would, who might not, otherwise participate from places as far away as Florida and so forth. So we're really pleased by that. The other thing I'll say is that this year, given feedback, we're introducing the cohort, a cohort, cohort learning group, which will kick off in June, which will be six to our sessions for the balance of the year, for young practitioners who want to take a deeper dive in into di work and the things that they should be cognizant of as di champions and leaders and so forth. Oh,   Speaker 2  44:41 that's fabulous. So anyone listening to this podcast, you know a young, emerging leader, this is for them. I know I recently read a grant proposal evidence that you crafted us seeking support from Morgan Stanley. If, if you're with Morgan. Stanley vote yes funding that grant. But I know that you articulated some elements of the vision of the future of ISD. So let's, let's wave that magic wand and say that we obtain all the funding that is necessary to scale is the to have the impact that is needed in these trying times. What are some of the things you see for the future? Well, one of the things both of you   Speaker 4  45:30 but one of the things I'd just like to comment on that we haven't touched on is that Barbara and I both bring a fairly deep knowledge of di work, and we have both been involved in the development of of standards. Barbara with the Global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion benchmarks, and I served as the convener for the international organizations for standardizations. ISO standard, 30415, semicolon, 2021, which is the diversity and inclusion standard. And we believe, as we look forward, that increasingly organizations want tested frameworks and standards to help guide the development and sustainability of the work that they do in this area. And part of what we're trying to impress upon people that this isn't something that's performative, but that it's something that's very much integral to carrying out the mission, the vision of the organization, and that it goes beyond just employees, but to all stakeholders. So these frameworks help people gain a better understanding and appreciation for that, and we're going to be doing more about that as well. We're also going to be in a half we're looking specifically at research around, how do you counter this di under fire context that we're in? And so we've been putting together some special events, and we likely will have more this year, which helps people understand what's behind this pushback. What are the things that we can do? How do we message the importance of di and so forth, and so we think that's going to be a valuable add to the work that we're doing this year as well. Yeah,   Speaker 2  47:14 and I say assault rather than a pushback assault, that's just me, but that's fabulous. I know there's tools, so my ISO experiences in aerospace manufacturing, as the lighthouse here in Seattle has many, many blind and deaf, blind machinists making as 9100 quality aircraft parts. So I understand what that means, that there are standards, there are indicators that you're on the path to success. There are ways to test what you're doing. There are processes. So the ISO standard for for di What about valuable set of tools for people? So thank thank you for your work on that, and Barbara the global benchmarks again, including people, is the right thing to do from a moral, ethical standpoint, but it's also the right thing to do from an effective, effectiveness impact strategy standpoint for businesses, organizations, to deliver, like you said, evidence on their mission, vision of values, the best way they can. That's doing to include as many strengths as possible, which means including the whole spectrum of human contributions. So love the work you've both done, love to be part love, love to be joining the Mary band at this point, being on the is the board and just excited, and I think very motivated. And I think there are lots of people who are looking for a way to get involved, to to engage a place, a place to call home, a place to pitch in and contribute. And I would offer the Institute for Sustainable diversity, inclusion is the as that place   49:10 Sure. Could I add something? Right?   Speaker 3  49:13 I think one of the things that is the has done, and I think we're, you know, we're going to push it more as we as we move into this environment, and that is intercultural competence. So like it or not, the United States is a multicultural, multi racial, hopefully democracy continues. And so the diversity of our population just is. It exists, and it has for since the start of this country. And so we've been we've been trying to figure out how we deal with diversity our entire lives. And there have been advances and retractions and for. Forward and backward throughout our history. You can, you can read it anywhere. And so right now, there's a there's a model that I wrote about early on in 1988 and it has evolved. It was called the experiencing differences model. Now it's called the intercultural development continuum. So, and I know both of the both of the scholars that that contributed to developed and produced this model. So back in in 19 I was   50:34 taking notes when I talked to you too,   Speaker 3  50:39 I talked with Milton Bennett, who, who, who developed the first version of the model. It was called experiencing differences model. And he's, it was somebody asked him, can you tell us where the United States is? And he says, well, it's not really a a country model. But he said, If you force me to to answer, I would say it's in the stage of minimization, which is, which is a stage to to minimize differences. But today, I would say that the United States has reverted back to the second stage in the model called polarization, and that's where we recognize the differences. We don't like them, and we judge them to be inferior to who we are, and so that that basically the country has moved back into a earlier stage of the developmental model. And you know that it just, it just doesn't work very well for the reality of what we are. So I think one of the things that the the institute is going to think about as we move forward is, how can we help people understand and gain intercultural competency in this world that is becoming ever more diverse? And of course, diversity not only has to do with the diversity in our own country, but because of airplanes, diversity travels around the world at at great speed. And I used to remind the Boeing, the Boeing people, when we worked with Boeing. You, you all, you all facilitate international travel. You all facilitate international diversity and people moving around the globe. You all do that. That's part of what is the result of building airplanes. And so we have to become competent working with people different from ourselves. What a diplomat once said to me, you know, we have been come. We are competent in dealing with people like ourselves. We have to become competent in dealing with people who are different than we are. That's the next stage in adult development. I had that conversation 20 years ago. We are still in that that box, that bucket, so to speak, we need to learn to be more confident with the diversity around us, because it's not going away. That's right,   Speaker 2  53:02 the Northwest. Firstly, learning series is here as one way we can all work together again. Thank you Barbara, thank you Ethan, us for being here today. Love to have continue this conversation, and maybe in about six months toward the end of the year, see what's unfolded, see what's developed. That   53:20 would be very interesting.   Speaker 2  53:23 Yeah. So again, this is a podcast by Dr Kirk Adams, and I really I learned so much from both of you, whenever, whenever we speak. Now, now that I'm on the board, I have the opportunity to be in various meetings with both of you, and I always have my note taker at hand, because I always learn something from from both of you. I just treasure the opportunity to be part of his di and to bring these resources to the community sorely needed at this point in time. So here we are, and I will talk again later. Thank you again. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you.   Speaker 1  54:07 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot drcker adams.com, together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

Supercharge Your Bottom Line TDI: April 24, 2025: Mai Ling Chan, CCC-SLP, PMP, Founder, Exceptional Leaders Network https://drkirkadams.com/sybl-tdi-04-24-2025/ In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, Dr. Adams speaks with Mai Ling Chan, MS, CCC-SLP, PMP — a speech-language pathologist turned tech entrepreneur and the founder of the Exceptional Leaders Network. Mai Ling brings a rare blend of clinical expertise, project-management rigor, and entrepreneurial know-how to the conversation. After 18 years of frontline SLP practice, she built and exited a therapy-staffing company, co-created the acclaimed Xceptional Leaders podcast, and now guides disability-focused founders and corporations on inclusive product design, branding, and market strategy through her consultancy, Mai Ling Chan LLC. Her Amazon best-selling Becoming an Exceptional Leader anthology series and the growing Exceptional Leaders Network spotlight innovators who turn lived disability experience into breakthrough solutions. In this episode, Dr. Adams explores: ✅ Mai Ling's journey from hospitality to graduate school at Arizona State University and why she pursued both the CCC-SLP and PMP credentials. ✅ The mission of the Exceptional Leaders Network and how community accelerates disability innovation. ✅ Key lessons from advising corporates and start-ups on accessibility, inclusive UX, and brand positioning. ✅ Opportunities for executives to translate disability inclusion into revenue growth and market differentiation. 🔗 Connect & Learn More Dr. Kirk Adams – Inclusion Strategy: https://drkirkadams.com Mai Ling Chan, LLC – Consulting & Speaking: https://mailingchan.com Exceptional Leaders Network – Community & Resources: https://mailingchan.com/eln Xceptional Leaders Podcast – Inspiring Interviews: https://xceptionalleaders.com If you're ready to supercharge your bottom line through disability inclusion, hit Subscribe, ring the bell 🔔, and share your thoughts in the comments! #DisabilityInclusion #Accessibility #InclusiveBusiness #SpeechLanguagePathology #Leadership #ProjectManagement #ExceptionalLeaders Transcript:   00:00 Music.   00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams.   00:37 So welcome everyone to Dr KURT ADAMS monthly livestream webinar, which I call supercharge your bottom line through Disability Inclusion. Today, I have wonderful guest, Mei Ling Chan. If you could just say hello, Mei Ling, and I'll turn it over to you shortly. Hello everyone. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me great and for those of you who don't know me, again, I'm Dr Kirk Adams. I'm talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind, which was Helen Keller's organization, and I had the awe inspiring opportunity to sit at her desk. I moved to New York City   01:25 in 2016 to be become president of AFB. Prior to that, I held those same leadership roles at the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, which is a social enterprise employing hundreds of blind and deaf, blind people, interesting businesses, including aerospace manufacturing for all the Boeing aircraft. I have a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University, and I focus my dissertation work on employment. I did an ethnographic study of blind adults employed at major American corporations, and interviewed a lot of really cool people working at a lot of companies whose names we all know, and I learned a lot from that experience about the factors that lead to successful employment for people who are blind and the barriers that still remain. So we we all have lots of work to do together to make the world of equitable place where everyone has the equal opportunity to thrive. And I do that by focusing on employment. I work with companies to help them accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in their workforce. I support disabled entrepreneurs and their entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial journeys. I help   02:51 small nonprofits scale beyond the founder stage. And in general, I   03:00 look for fun, innovative, high impact projects that will accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in our world. And I like to work with people I like and mailing. Mailing is one of those people we were introduced quite some time ago, and I've stayed in very close contact as she has developed her strategies. And what she's bringing to the world to accelerate inclusion and equity and social justice and all of those good things. So   03:31 would really like to spend the bulk of our time hearing from you mailing I can. I'll reserve the right to pop in and ask some clarifying questions. But would would love to hear about your journey so far, your background. What   03:49 energize you, energizes you and motivates you. Around disability inclusion, maybe some of the things you've tried, some of the things that have worked well, some of the things that you you learn from and where you're at now with ELN exceptional Leaders Network, which I'm privileged and proud to be part of, and then what your your vision of the future is. So I'm happy to hand you the the talking stick, 111, little comment I've learned a lot from Mei Ling. She she comes my as a totally blind person myself since age five, I they tend to look for information about blindness and visual impairment and assistive technologies that support people with visual impairment to help us be in fewer disabling situations through use of technology, but I was on a call with Mei Ling earlier in the week, where her guest speaker was using augmentative communication technology, which I'm I've had some exposure to, but really learning a lot more about because of my association with Mei Ling. So always some.   05:00 Thing new to learn, and that's what we're here for today, for those of you who are with us live, we'll provide ample time for question and answer, and for those of you who are viewing the archived recording, we will let you know how to get in touch with both of us. So Mei Ling, the floor is yours? Excellent. Thank you again. I'm so excited to be able to be on the show with you, and I will tell our listeners that I do have ADHD and I have my talking points in front of me, but if I start to become a runaway guest, which is a podcast guest that just goes on and on, please jump in. Dr Adams, okay, okay, great. I can't imagine me wanting to stop you from saying anything, but I will, I will, I will take that under advice you never know. But I also have learned a lot from Dr Adams, and we are currently working on the software that I am using for the exceptional Leaders Network, which he just joined with me, because there isn't a seamless interface with the jaws re screen reader. And so we're having some issues with accessing different areas, and I don't, I don't use one. And so this has been a really interesting journey for me to be a bridge between a very important user, which is, you know, one of my members and the tech team, and so this has been back and forth with emails. And so I'm really hopeful that this company is going to embrace, you know, the WCAG   06:32 requirements, and I'm looking forward to moving through this process together. And of course, I am name dropping Dr Adams, and that was that he was the former founder and president of the Black blind Association, and you know, hello, we've got somebody very important here, in addition to any other future users who maybe they're already trying to use the software and just not saying anything. So we're getting some good traction. So I just wanted to share that with your listeners. So   07:04 you're muted.   07:07 Well, take take us back to your girlhood in New Jersey. Let's go way back. I love that, yes. So I'm a Jersey girl who's stuck in the desert looking for my beach. That's what I've been saying. It's wild. I've been here 24   07:22 years now in the desert. I originally am from Keyport, New Jersey, a small little sailboat town, which is a beautiful area in Monmouth County. And I did not know how good I had it, because really, you know, 20 minutes and I'm at any beach, it was just crazy. And then I could also drive into New York City. And so I grew up seeing a lot of the the shows, you know, Les Mis I saw probably three or four times. I saw the Christmas ones. I saw the rockets, you know, I've been center, yeah, all of that. And then I came out to Arizona, and I was like, what it was like scratching a record.   08:01 So I've learned a lot, and I've learned to really just treasure, you know, being in New Jersey, young and I would say, you know, going to the beaches and going to the Garden State Art Center, which is an open amphitheater where you could hear the watch the concerts, and you were so close to the to the, you know, the singers and the performers. It's just incredible. So a lot of things have changed. Obviously, I've been out now for 26 years, but my connections and my culture is still very east coast, and people out here will be like, you know, I like you may. You're pretty direct, you're pretty blunt. And I was like, oh, that's the Jersey girl talking.   08:38 Did you become aware of   08:42 people with impairments, disabilities, and dynamics around disability   08:48 as a young person? It's a great question. So I was in I grew up in a very small town, one square mile was the town of keep where it still is, and I had exposure to one cousin, so actually, a friend's cousin who had a lot of believe it was mental disability, and I don't know, because I was so young then, and he was much bigger than me, so I'm a tiny girl. I'm only, like, barely five feet now, and he was a big, big kid, and there was a lot of sound and chaos coming from the other rooms, and I happened to be sitting next to him, he reached out and hit me. Didn't mean to, you know, it's a sensory overload, all that kind of stuff that you don't know about. And so after that, being a young kid, I was always scared, afraid, putting these in quotes of people who had, you know, physical like, if it looked like they had a mental disability, and you could tell. And back then, we used the word retarded, which we don't use now. And that was, you know, in my mind, like, oh, they are violent. And so that was really interesting for me. Wasn't until I went back to school, I went to college, obviously, you know, got education there, and then I got immersed in a lot of self contained classrooms. And so now, obviously, I have a whole different vision.   10:00 And understanding, you know, of all of the sensory inputs and things like that. But that's a great question some people   10:06 so at the college level, were you studying disability related?   10:11 Great question. Oh, nope, I was going for business. I was supposed to get into the school of business, and because I was not focusing on my studies enough, I got a temporary   10:23 admission, and I had to get, like, one more a and so I took a Latin basis class over the summer, and I got a B plus. So I did not, you know, fulfill the requirements. And so I was like, Okay, what am I gonna do now? I supposed to go in and do marketing, and I decided to go into the School of Communications, would look which look like fun, you know, public speaking and broadcasting. So I ended up getting my bachelor's degree there, and then started working for hotels. So I was working for Hyatt hotels for a while, not married, and then had the absolute blessing to stay home with my children and raise them. So I stayed home for 10 years with my two boys. And then my aunt, who is Colombian, she was working in inner city, New York, and she said, Mehmet, you should become a speech teacher. And I said, what is that? And by that point, we did have the internet, so I googled it, and I was like, Oh, this looks great, you know, I love talking, and I could work the kids schedules. And so then I put all my eggs in one basket, and I took some leveling classes out here at ASU, Arizona State University, and I got to know the professors, and somehow I got in. So I was one of 35 students for the master's program out of 300 applications. And I ended up loving both the school age or the school setting and also the medical so I did both tracks, and it was incredible. And so I got to do everything from, I'd say, preschool age, at home, early feeding, all through school age. And then I also kept doing the medical side on the weekends. And so I've also worked with geriatrics, adults trauma like post stroke, acute speech language therapy. What's the right speech language pathology? Yep. Mythology pathology, yeah. So the neurological side, swallowing, and then I loved AAC, which you brought up, which is alternative and on   12:14 augmentative communication, which is AAC. That was incredible. As technology, I love technology, and I got to work with a company in Santa Barbara on brain computer interface, which was absolutely amazing. So we had a little stint there. And then, since then, since 2020 I've been full time consulting, so being a bridge between companies and businesses and helping to connect all the dots, you know, the pieces of clinical versus like product creation, marketing, content, so companies that are on the disability technology space, or what type of companies? Yep, and even it's just, it's a lot of blur, like even private practice or writing a book, and that's kind of where all of this came out. I also started my own podcast. I've been doing that for seven years. It's called the exceptional leaders podcast spotlighting people like yourself who are amazing leaders in this space. And that was an amazing journey for me to just get one person and ask them all the questions I wanted. You know, I'm a very curious person, and so I love that entrepreneurial journey of the ups and downs. And you know what kept you connected to your vision, and where did you get the help? So in after my first year, I realized, as this was back seven years ago, not everybody was listening to podcasts. And I was like, you know, I don't want people to miss these amazing stories. So I decided to do an anthology. I did not know what that word was when I started, I said, I just want to take everyone's stories and put them together in a book. And someone's like, that's an anthology mate. So I started with 15 other authors, and each one told one chapter, and that was beautiful. And so then that started the becoming exceptional leader book series. And then since then, I've now published a focus on AAC leaders, a focus on SLP leaders, and then also a focus on Asian Pacific Islander leaders, with the connection of special education. And each one of these books have had their own audience and their own connection. And I'm just amazed at the value, because everybody loves storytelling. You know, that's really how you can really connect with someone, versus just a bunch of bullets right in a bunch of directions. It's just been globally accepted each of the books, and I'm just so excited. It's been such a blessing.   14:29 So consulting with companies, podcasting, writing books,   14:38 connecting with leaders, and   14:43 what was the genesis of the exceptional leaders network that I know you've just launched. Thank you. So about maybe eight to 10 years ago, I started seeing these subscription memberships, and this is something where you pay, you know, certain amount every month, and then you get access to a group.   15:00 A community, some type of learning system. And this is different than just a like one course webinar, or even if it's like a three day course, this is something where every month, you know, you're tapping into the whoever the content creator is. And when it first started, I thought this is an amazing idea, and I had been creating other companies at that time. I had a learning management system for continuing education. We had had one about reviewing apps, you know. So I really understood the idea of aggregating and bringing communities together. And I just kept watching this idea of subscription memberships. And I saw colleagues starting ones like, for example, the medical SLP group. So it's a bunch of speech therapists who are their expertise is in medical and you pay a certain subscription price a month, and you get access to them, and all of these resources, fantastic. So I just kept thinking about it, but I had imposter syndrome, and I think that's what a lot of us have, because, you know, we come into this. My profession is a speech language pathologist, so I am an expert in certain areas, for example, AAC, right? And I say expert, we're always learning, but I'm just saying, like, that's my area of expertise, right? And then when you talk about subscription memberships, you now have to be creating content, you know, providing information. And I never found the area of speech pathology that I felt that I was in excellence of you know, where people would say, Oh, I, you know, I go to May every month for this in, let's say AC or this area, and that's because I do have ADHD, and so I feel like I have not deep dive into any one area, because they all interest me, which has been a blessing and a curse, right? Call that multi passion, yes, yes. I call it my, my superpower.   16:42 But it can also take me back. It take me, yeah, take me back. So, so I kept having this, like imposter syndrome, like, you know, I'd love to do a membership, but what is it that I would do? You know, I'm not an expert. I'm not an expert. I kept, kind of, like telling myself that. And for your listeners, really, the words that you say to yourself are so important. So if you tell yourself that you are or aren't something, you're going to believe that. And so for years, I believe that I wasn't an expert in anything, and then I was a jack of all trades, master of none. But I finally, finally started to understand that my value is really in connecting people and being a bridge to information. And then I don't need to know everything. And it wasn't until that clicked for me Kirk, that I was able to say, Oh, I've been doing this the whole time, right? I've been bringing people together. I've been sharing information on how to grow your specific accessibility business, or your inclusive business, or become a brand which people are not using like so say you are somebody, who you   17:43 you, I'm thinking the word refer, but that's the word you represent. That's the word you represent, a little known diagnosis, you know, and you're telling the world about it. That's your brand. And so we don't, we don't know how to use these words. And so I've been working with people, one on one, and consulting with them, helping them to understand, like, you need to create a website, you need to get very succinct in your messaging, and, you know, you need to have a mailing list and all of these things. And I started to see this is what I do. You know, this is my value. And so, keeping with the exceptional leaders branding, which is what I've been doing with the podcast, and then also with the book, I created the exceptional Leaders Network, and it this has even been a slow grow because I didn't know what it would be. And so last August, yep, last August, I sent an email out to like, 100 of my closest people who I who I've been dealing with over the years in projects and podcasts and books, and I said, Look, I really think that we need a community where we support each other, we uplift each other, and we support each other's offerings, and we get it. We get each other right. We don't have to explain what is accessible mean. What does inclusive mean? And I said, I don't know what it's going to be, but I'd like to start it. And if you'd like to, you know, be a part of this founders group, let's do this. And so I had 25 people who said, Yes, it was crazy. And we started each month coming together and saying, you know, what kind of topics would be valuable? And I started creating agendas. Another thing that is my superpower power, and it's really because I have ADHD, is I am very organized, and so I have created all of these strategies to make sure that I show up on time, that I get projects done on time. And so being very organized, I was able to kind of see, you know, the pieces of what we were doing and how this could then grow into something much bigger. And so in the last couple of months, now, we have all different presentations or webinars. They're like 45 minutes where they are deep dives into different areas of small business creation and strategy and maintenance, but we also have the time where the people that are on the live calls, they get to share, and that's been so valuable. And you were saying this to Dr Adams that you got to to meet Brooke Brown, who was former Arizona Miss wheelchair on.   20:00 Yeah, yeah. And so you start to see each other, and you hear from each other what our successes are and our challenges are, and sharing tips, and that has just been priceless. I The   20:14 the several experiences I've had so far with ELN exceptional leaders network have been   20:21 it feels like entrepreneurship flavored with disability inclusion. Are those common themes? Is disability accessibility unifying theme? Or how would you describe kind of the framework that you're constructing under right? So I always say it's people with and without disabilities who are working towards accessibility and inclusion. Okay,   20:50 great. So that leads me to the next question of what, what?   20:55 What types of folks do you think would benefit from joining joining the Mary band, yes, exceptional leaders, yeah. So I'm calling them or calling us like brand ambassadors. So now I talk about ADHD as much as I can, right? Because this diagnosis that I feel everybody should be in touch with, I received my di my diagnosis about three years ago now, and honestly, it was very what's weird, like I finally did it, but in the back of my mind, I've, I think I've known I've had it for a while, right? But it didn't look like what a little boy looks like. So I wasn't really sure. And I feel that my messaging is that many women might have this diagnosis, and they don't know, because it just looks different for women, it presents different. And so I feel like me sharing this is really important. So the this is me identifying with a and I'm putting in quotes a disability, but this isn't my it's not the only thing that I do. And so that's why the people that are that I feel that would be navigating towards, you know, our exceptional leaders network are people who are coming out, and they are, you know, seeing the value of having a brand, having a platform, and the real piece is monetizing. And so you could be a speech therapist who has a private practice, or someone who has a disability who just wrote a book or created a product, special education teachers, you know, who have this great idea for a product or a software program, assisted technology developers. I mean, they're people all over the place, but we all come together because we are unified in this very, very special niche area of disability accessibility, inclusion. And so it's been really amazing because people are now collaborating with each other and going, Oh, that. You know, I would love to have Dr Adams on my podcast or so. And so is writing memoirs. And I would love to have her help me, because she gets, you know, my story and how it's different. And, yeah, it's been amazing. I'd like to touch on a couple things. So ADHD, I often talk to people about disability inclusion, and, you know, they're the terms I've been using are visible and non visible disability.   23:05 You know, when I walked into my first job interviews out of college with my long white cane and my Braille slate and stylus, no, it's in Braille, it was pretty obvious that I have   23:15 an impairment, a visual impairment,   23:19 70% or something, of significant disabilities are what, again, I was using the term non visible until about, until about a week ago, when I, when I read a pretty reason   23:33 argument that not non apparent is probably a better term. So would love to get your thoughts on a parent versus non apparent disability a little bit, and any of that, the dynamics that you've observed as a person with a non apparent disability, and then really curious about, what if anything changed for you when you when you had a formal diagnosis, like you said, you kind of you kind of sense there was something neurodiverse about yourself, but you did not have that diagnosis until about three years ago. Obviously, you're an adult, so I'm just really curious about what that felt like, and   24:14 pros, cons,   24:16 dynamics around around that Excellent. Thank you. This has been a very interesting journey for me, because it collided with doing my last book, which was becoming an exceptional API leader, which is Asian, Pacific Islander leader, and I had just completed my it's like an intake questionnaire, and as I was completing it, that's really where I knew that I was going to qualify, because most of Your symptoms will show up before the age of 12, when you're a girl. And so I had to really go back deep into my childhood. I'm now 50. I'll be 53 in May. And so going back and thinking about all of these different the questions that they asked, and some of them were like, oh, so, for example, I always had bruises up and down my legs. Kirk, because.   25:00 I was bumping into things. I was constantly just, I didn't know where my legs were, and then my arms were like octopus arms. And my family actually joked that when I came to a table and there were glasses out on the table, that they would all grab their glass and hold it, because inevitably, I was going to knock something over. Okay, that was really interesting, right? So I think about, like, these type of things, and then also I wouldn't stop talking. And my dad, literally, my dad is 100% Chinese, would be like, shut up. Would you stop talking? You know? And then I would just shrink and just be like, you know? And he was like, you haven't stopped saying something since you were born. You know, there's all these things that, like, the picture starts coming together for me, and that was wild. So as I'm answering these questions, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's me, you know. Like, did you have trouble getting stuff done in school? I got to see every single semester in grade school, up until seventh grade, it was like, I'll just pick spelling, English, history, science, you know, each one because I just couldn't get it together. Couldn't get my projects done, you know, I wasn't organized. And back then, I don't know if you guys remember, like, Oh, that was like, latch key kids days, like, my parents didn't help me with my homework. They didn't get me, you know, it's not the helicopter parenting that we had now, so literally, I had to take care of everything myself. Well, my parents asked, Did you do your homework?   26:16 Yes,   26:18 yes. There's different kind of parenting. You know, my death was a mess. My room was a mess, like, it's just a mess. And so going through it, like, by the time I got done, I submitted the questionnaire, and I just sat there crying. I was like, Oh my gosh, I had ADHD all that time, and nobody helped me, and nobody saw it. And then the flip side of that is, as I'm going through and writing the book together with Dr Lily Chang, who is the founder of the Asian Pacific Islander caucus for the American Speech Language Hearing Association. She taught me, and I think I always knew this, but she taught me about face. And this is a concept Mansa, that in most of the Asian cultures, and even Southeast Asian cultures that that on the outside, you don't want public people to know what is going on for your family, because it is embarrassing, because you know you there's a certain level that you want to keep up in terms of reputation. And so this, it just permeates so many things, and it is so true. And so this is where perfectionism comes in and secrecy. And if you notice, like very the Asians DON'T LIKE SHARE, you know, their their family gossip, you know, things like that. I don't know if everybody knows, but this is actually, like an unsaid thing. And so disability is actually a something that runs through this where you don't want anyone to know that your child has a disability. I mean, you want them to think that your child's perfect, and so any disabilities will absolutely be, you know, hit under the table, and we're not going to talk about that. And so when I was learning about that, and then being able to look at my relationship with my dad, who's 100% Chinese from Hong Kong, now I realize that he was trying to discipline ADHD out of me. I'm just gonna let that hang there, like by yelling at me, you know, reprimanding me, taking things away, you know, giving me negative feedback. It's not gonna work. Obviously, we all know it's not gonna work. So that was amazing for me to be able to connect all that together. I have a good relationship with my dad. I love him. The death cutest little guy, and I've been able to see past you know that this is what he thought was best parenting techniques, but it was so damaging for me, Kirk, because I always feel like I'm not good enough. I'm not doing all this work. I should be doing better. What is wrong with me? That was the other thing my dad loved to ask rhetorical, rhetorical questions, what are you doing?   28:48 I'm like, a million things I don't know.   28:52 So that was really huge for me. And then writing the book and working with all of the different people in the API community. Now I understand that me telling this story is so important because other people go, Oh my gosh, that's my story too. You know, whether it's just connecting with hiding a disability in the family, or the family not accepting a neurological, you know, a neuro diverse, let's say ADHD, ADD autism, all of those. You know, it's very hard for some families because of this Asian influence and the intersection of this culture. So that's really interesting, yeah. Well, obviously you   29:30 figured out alternative techniques for yourself at this undiagnosed, neurodiverse set of characteristics. But you obviously are very, successful, one of 35 people out of 300 to get into your master's program and becoming a speech language pathologist, podcasting and writing books and things. From a I guess, probably from a psychosocial standpoint, super helpful to have a diagnosis. But then from a practical standpoint, are there two?   30:00 Tools or techniques that you've   30:02 come to embrace since the diagnosis that have been helpful to you. Yes, so I set up to eighth grade. I got a C but then there was a high school that I wanted to go to, and it was a private high school, and I had gone to private school too, but I wanted this high school, and my parents said you have to get straight A's if you're going to go to this high school. We know you can do it. We don't know what your problem is, but in order to stay in this high school, you have to get straight A's. And so, again, no one told me how. So I had to develop my own strategies, and that's really the word. And so I had my Trapper Keeper, my calendar, my my note cards. You know, I had to come up with all of these ways to keep myself organized. And that stayed with me almost to a fault, because I'm OCD on a lot of things now, where it's like, Oh, my God, this has to be like this, where I got to be packed like, three days in advance, and I gotta get all my vitamins together a month in advance. You know, it's, it's a little too much.   30:55 So that's like, the the old school way. And then now with technology, which was what your question was, I am on fire because I've got, like, my phone is beeping, My watch is vibrating, you know, like, you name it. I got things going on to keep me going, and I still will miss a meeting, believe it   31:13 or not, happens to the best. Yes, yes, and then AI, oh my gosh. AI is like, it's like, I can't even, I can't even explain, like I can maybe 5x what my productivity is on a daily basis. Now with AI, what are some of the common things you use AI for? So research is really important. So I do a lot of presentations now, and I'm kind of doing meta presentations, because it's aI presentations, right? How to use it as a speech language pathologist, how to use it as a small owner. And I actually do a lot of this research using all of the AI tools. I also am loving agentic AI, which is that you can have, there's a software program, there's a couple now, where you have four or five different agents, and they different things. So one does content writing, one does email writing, one does personal development, and they all connect with each other, so you don't have to have, like, one space for one topic. So that's just really powerful. I love those two things. And then chat GPT is changing all the time. Here we are in 2025   32:16 and we're, you know, just at the surface of what it can do. It's constantly updating   32:24 and back to the parent versus non apparent disabilities,   32:32 thinking about speech, and obviously Brooke on Monday, when she was making her presentation using   32:40 AAC   32:42 augmented and alternative. Yes, okay, communications. So it was pretty, pretty clear to me before I knew she was Miss wheelchair Arizona,   32:53 you know, hearing, hearing during the way she presented I was as a blind person, it was apparent to me that she has an impairment. And I want to take just a minute and talk about impairment and disability. So   33:09 I have a visual impairment, I'm totally blind. Some people have hearing impairments, mobility impairments, cognitive impairments, but impairment does not equal disability. I really like to talk about that a lot, especially with employers. And I'm, you know, I use two simple examples. One is, if I'm   33:30 leading a meeting and I am at the conference table and I have my agenda in Braille and my committee reports and my budget and Braille, I can read Braille as well as a sighted person could read print. So I'm not I'm not in a disabling situation. Then, even though my visual impairment is constant, however, if I sit down at a conference table and you hand me a stack of print materials, my visual impairment   34:01 does not fit with that built environment of print, so I am in a disabling situation. So we talk, I talk a lot about trying to minimize the disabling situations for people with impairments, and to have social, digital and built environments that lessen the instances of disabling situations. So I talk, talk about that. And then often, if I'm on a break big crowd, I'll say, and this may you would, you would clap, I'll say, if you're, if you're five feet tall or shorter, clap, and someone will clap. And I'll say, Well, if you walk into a room and there's a package on a shelf that's eight feet off the ground, your characteristic of your height does not fit with the built environment or that high shelf. So you're going to have to be creative. You're going to have to get a tool like a step stool, or you're going to have to find a teammate taller than you and create a team.   35:00 Uh in order, and then you may want to build a lower shelf so the situation doesn't happen again. So those are super some super simplistic examples. But   35:11 as far as the fit between people with impairments and speech and the fit with our our world. I'd love to just hear some of your top of mind reflections about that. Since that's an area of expertise for you, it's not it's not for me, but I'm really obviously interested in anyone with characteristics that fall outside the norm, and how we can be inclusive of everybody, everybody, everybody. I say,   35:45 you're going to love this. So I had the honor of being able to nominate some people for our recent Arizona State Speech and Hearing Association Annual Conference, and it just happened in April, and I nominated John Gomez, who's a good friend of mine, but also the producer of when I stutter, and it's now an internationally recognized documentary on adults who stutter. And he published this, I think, back in 2018 and it was after like, four or five years of interviewing and filming adults all around the country. And he is one of the pioneers of shifting speech language pathology to whole person centered, versus fixing someone who stutters, and this is a non apparent impairment. So that actually fits perfectly into, you know, what you're talking about. And in the film, it's it's fantastic, because people talk about trying all different types of therapies, like even the one that is like that camera was called the MVR thing or something like, It echoes back to them what they say. And that actually works for a little while, but then the brain just reconfigures and goes back to its initial states. It's amazing. And then also, like, where all these strategies the speech therapist teaches the the client to stop talking, start again. You know, use onboarding strategies. And they were just saying, like, how limiting it was and how it affected their self confidence and so many things. It was actually negative for some people, you know, and it made the in the profession to have to take a look at, is it our is our place that we want to fix people so that they don't have this impairment anymore? Or are we just trying to get people to the point where they are happy and they are communicating. And that's always been, what I fall back on in the field, is it doesn't matter what form of communication you're using, it's that you are effectively communicating. And you know you're communicating with another person, with your pet. You know it could be with just somebody that can or something that can accept it. But there is, there's also a lot of controversy that if you have an AAC device, you have to use the device, you have to press the symbol, versus just using your hands. Why can't you just press your by, you know, or vocalize, uh, and that's all you can get. But that means by, or that's closest to it. We also find that there's people who and then this is Brooke. She cannot, um, enunciate all of the sounds, and so she has helpers, and that her helper was not available for our session the other day, but they can interpret her vocalizations. And it's amazing. And so that person has become her assistive technology, right? Yes, yes, yes.   38:22 Um,   38:24 yes, you said the documentarian. Did you say John Gomez,   38:27 so, and whole whole person? What was the whole person centered? Yeah, whole person centered. Could you just talk a little bit more about that? What that means the whole person? So, an example is when I had a child, he was in fifth grade, and he kept coming in. He he had a stutter. He come and he'd say, Miss Chan, I don't want to leave my class. I'm working on a science project, or, you know, we're just doing something and and I'd say, okay, but you know, let's just go through this. And as he's telling me, he's experiencing moments of stuttering, and he's like, I don't need, I don't need the speech therapy. And so I went in and observed him, which is part of our responsibility, is to observe him with his peers, you know, in the classroom. And I said, this kid's doing great, you know, he's not really impacted, and he was getting good grades. And so those are the two markers that we can attach our speech therapy to in the school setting. Is that, you know, maybe socialization is impeding his ability to to participate in group activities, and then that affects him academically. So it always has to affect academics. So this was years ago, before we had the school person centered, and I had his family come in, and he's only in fifth grade. And every year you have an IEP, the individual education process meeting, and I had to help him come to it. And I said, you know, Johnny, how do you feel about speech therapy? He's like, it's a waste of my time, you know, I don't want to be there. Yeah. And I said, Okay, well, how do you feel about your grades? He's like, I don't know. I think I'm doing great. You know, I don't have any problems. We asked the teacher. Teacher says he's doing great. Does he have any issues with, you know, interacting with peers? Any self confidence issues? None.   40:00 And he wants to stop speech therapy. The parents do not want him to stop speech therapy. And so this was something that took me at least two years to get him off of my caseload, and I had reduced him down to just one hour a month, reduced consultation to the point where I could get him off of a full IEP and he can be out with the general kids, and so that's what Whole Person Centered is, is that is this person communicating, or, you know, being able to live at the level where they feel that they Right, right? Are they thriving exactly by their own deficit, their own definition of what thriving is, right? Yes. So let's talk about the IEP just for a second. If there's a parent, the child with a disability, a child with an impairment, listening to this, the individual education plan or education process, individual education process document is super, super important,   41:01 your child is entitled to that.   41:07 For blind kids, there's something called the expanded core curriculum, which the American Foundation for the Blind and Dr Phil Hatton developed many years ago. And it's the it's the good news as blind kids get at some point and say, Hey, blind kid, you got to learn everything the sighted kids learn, and nine more things, which is orientation of mobility, how to travel confidently and safely with the with the long white cane Braille, if that's appropriate,   41:35 assistive technology and advocacy, you need to Learn how to advocate for yourself, and I did not. I was not really taught that very well. I have some terrible stories about how not being able to advocate for myself that negatively impacted my life, but   41:56 having your child in those IEP meetings   41:59 from kindergarten on is really important. They can give feedback and input into the process as developmentally appropriate. They can say what they like and don't like when they're really little, and as they get older, they can really start being a leader in those settings.   42:19 I can remember being at a National Federation of the Blind of Washington meeting, talking about IEPs, and one of the moms said, you know, if I walked in there and there were six people and me, there were six experts, and they were telling me what was best for my kid. And I said, I'm not prepared. I didn't realize what this is going to be. I need to reschedule. And she said, I came back with seven people.   42:45 No, it still chokes me up, because she said, you know, we have to have it IEP meeting in the gym. That's where we're going to have it, just so I can have enough support to   42:56 achieve for my child. What what I need to achieve for my child? So the IEP is super important. Sounds like you've been involved in quite a number of those mailing so I just want to put that out there.   43:09 And I know that either one of us would be happy, delighted to talk to anyone who's with us live today or   43:18 viewing the recording about any or all of this. So let's, let's tell people how they can get in touch with us. And then I love mailing to hear a little about about your vision for the future of the exceptional leaders network.   43:32 So how can people best get in touch with you? Well, it's kind of amazing. My name, mailing Chan is pretty   43:40 popular in China,   43:42 but I was able to actually land mailing chan.com which is why, so please feel free to reach out to me at MLC, at mailing chan.com you can also find me on LinkedIn at mailing Chan and Instagram at mailing Chan, great, and for me, my name is not quite as Common, but I was able to get Dr Kirk adams.com so dr Kirk adams.com   44:06 or Kirk Adams PhD on LinkedIn, and   44:12 I spend my day   44:14 trying to move   44:17 inclusion of people with disabilities forward in all kinds of ways, small, small and large, serious and fun. So if it's something that you're interested in talking about with either one of us I know mailing I'm gonna I'm gonna speak for you. We would welcome a conversation   44:35 with anyone out there who wants to   44:39 help move things forward. Good of the order.   44:42 But before we, before we open it up for any questions from the people with us here today, I'd love to, love to hear a few minutes about your vision for Eln. I know, I know it started. I joined it. I've been to a couple meetings, been to, had a couple great experiences with.   45:00 Your guest speakers. And as you mentioned earlier, you and I are working through the accessibility issues with the membership platform that you're using, and we've got the vendor involved now, which is what you need to do. And so we're, we're doing, we're doing those things that   45:18 in the ELN world will make things more accessible for everybody. So what, where do you want to see things go?   45:25 Well, you know, we have to talk about the space that we're in right now and how it's being affected by the change in the federal programs. You know, the obliteration of di programs and the trickle down, reduction in funding for services. So many people like us are disability advocates, speech therapists and just people in this community, we're starting to look for independent paths to creating impact. You know, what are some other ways that we can do this and connect with people and also generate sustainable income? And that's a piece that I haven't been talking about for years. It's that we need to make money, and with that money, we can help more people, we can be more impactful. And so that's where I see the ELN network really coming together. Is I think we're small but mighty right now, but we are going anywhere, and we're just going to continue to grow as people like you, our listeners, are listening and finding out that there is support here from people who get what you are working on. And that's really hard, because I think in this time again, I talk about inclusivity, accessibility, this is becoming non negotiable. You know, for businesses, they can take away the DI programs, but the the requirements are always going to be there, and we need to continue to self advocate. And if you know, we know together, we are stronger. That's where I see the exceptional Leaders Network going growing is growing together. I like to say this is we need to look to our left and right and to lift each other up. And I feel that that is where the exceptional leaders network is placed,   46:53 wonderful. And I that that does lead me to reiterate, the laws are still the laws. The Americans with Disability Act is still the law section, 504508,   47:07 EEOC, there's   47:09 opportunity,   47:11 there's still the Civil Rights Act, there's still the laws. And   47:16 I just say keep, keep the faith. And like you just said, mailing be be, be innovative, and gather together in community, and let's look for creative solutions as groups of people who care.   47:31 Anyone with us today who would like to ask a question? I don't like chat because I just hear Jaws read it. So if you if you just want to unmute   47:41 and ask a question. Feel free.   47:44 I'm sorry. I thought I was unmuted already. There we go. Oh, right. So Kirk, Mei Ling, it's always a pleasure to be with you. Amazing Stories. Mei Ling, I really appreciated some of the   48:01 insights on how you were raised, and it really struck home to me. So thank you for sharing that.   48:10 One of the questions that I I would really love to get both of you to weigh in on,   48:16 there is a   48:20 there because of what's happening right now and some of the   48:24 things that we're seeing happening at the federal level. One of the things that I've been hearing from some of my colleagues who have disabilities, whether that's blind or autism or other things, is I don't feel comfortable advocating for myself right now,   48:44 or I get shut down when I'm asking for help. And there's this intimidation piece that seems to be happening   48:57 that I have to own for you I don't really understand, because when someone tries to intimidate me to shut up, that usually makes me talk louder, right? And I'm comfortable with that, but not everybody is like me, and so I'm really curious if you have   49:17 any strategies either that those people might be able to tap into who aren't feeling comfortable and advocating for themselves right now, or, quite honestly, if you got any advice for me who's trying to support them and and on that journey, right and trying to be both understanding and at The same time, push for you got to advocate. You can't let them shut you down. And so I hope that that's, yeah, well, my, my, my top of mind answer is, there's, there's,   49:55 there's a tolerance for being spiritedness. You.   50:00 And   50:03 this courteousness that's happening in our society right now, and I think that's not a not a big surprise. I think certain, certain people who,   50:16 for whatever reason, feel aggrieved, are feeling pretty emboldened to   50:24 speak, speak cruelly to other people.   50:30 And I think it's just important to acknowledge that that people have been permission, have been given permission to be pretty rude.   50:41 I think we've always had to choose our battles, our advocacy battles. And there's a such a thing as compassion fatigue. You can't, you can't try to take every micro aggression as a teachable moment. You know, when I'm in the TSA line with my wife and   51:00 they say,   51:01 can, can I see his ID?   51:05 You know, do I choose to just hand them my ID, or am I going to take a moment to   51:10 educate them that they should speak to me directly? So sometimes I sometimes I say, can speak to me directly? Sometimes I just hand the ID. Super, small example,   51:20 I think the answer, my default answer, to all of this stuff, is community.   51:27 You know, it's tough to do all this stuff alone, and don't, don't put yourself through it. You can, you can join a formal structure group, like exceptional Leaders Network, or you can find kindred spirits, and it's so much easier to find kindred spirits now, I grew up in teeny towns in the Pacific Northwest. I was the only blind kid in my schools. Never met a blind adult until well into my 20s,   51:57 who was a successful, thriving person   52:01 then wasn't taught advocacy skills, but with with the search tools we have today, the groups,   52:08 the American Council the blind has chapters. National Federation of the Blind has chapters.   52:14 There are recreational groups around people with various impairments.   52:20 Use a search engine and put in some terms and find, find, find some, some folks. I know there's the common find, find your tribe is a little bit of a buzz phrase nowadays, but don't, don't go it alone. Find someone that you can talk to about it, who has some shared experience, that you have some commonality with and those are my top of mind thoughts.   52:46 Eileen,   52:48 yeah, I have a really interesting experience. I had the opportunity to present about accessibility to small business owners. And   52:57 at the end of it, one of the participants said, you know, I don't understand why we have to make screen readers available for everyone. If I have an employee and they need something, why don't they just tell me? Why do I have to spend all this money to make it available for all the employees, and maybe there's only 1% that need it. And I was like, I just stood here talking to you for an hour about how important it was, and you have the audacity and ignorance to stand up and say that I was shocked. So I just want to give you that perspective is people just don't get it. So what I do tell people in this is to answer your your question, Jeremy, is to say this, these are the needs that I have, and this is what I need. And so specifically saying I need a Jaws, or whatever the screen reader is that you like, this is what I need. You know, I am vertically challenged, and I need to have, like I do. I have a child's chair, a child sized chair, so that I can fit, you know, anatomically at my desk. I need this, like, making that list of things and sharing those. Now, I don't know if you want to share that in the interview. You know, giving them these are all the things that I'm going to need. But I have no problem with saying and this is from the other side, so I am still like on that employee side, but as a consultant, I do offer. I have ADHD, and I'm using all of these tools and strategies, but if I don't show up for a meeting, feel free to ping me, you know, just letting them know I'm okay with that. You know, Text me, email me, whatever that is. If I'm late for something, don't think that you know that I remembered or something. And most of the time they don't have to do that. Just want you guys to know, because that's the other thing, is, you don't know. Do you want to be telling people these, you know, these issues that you might be having, and then they don't want to work with you? But if you know yourself, and you know you are true to your word. Of course, you're going to try to show up, you know, the best that you can. And so I don't think there's an issue with sharing earlier. You know, in these conversations with employers, what your needs are, and you know how you are working through them and what you need to be able to produce, you know, at your best level. Yeah. But.   55:00 As far as that of disclosing your disability and the employment journey,   55:04 I've   55:06 tried both strategies, not revealing until the last minute when I walk into the in person interview, which didn't go well for me, or disclosing up front again my cover letter, and that even went worse. But I think now that I'm old, older and wiser, the person may not legally be able to ask you about your disability, but if you have one, it's a great strategy to talk about it and talk about how it's a strength, how you've developed strengths, how you have unique capabilities and unique experiences because of it, and how it will not, hello, will not create problems for the employer. It's going to bring valuable assets to the table for the employer. And you might say, Hey, I got my masters and such and such, and I use this, this and this, and that's the exact same tools I'll use to do this job. And   55:59 you know, the vocational rehabilitation system will pay for it, or mailings may say you, you notice I'm a short person, all I need is this a chair. It's not going to cost any small chair doesn't cost any more than a big chair. All I need is this chair. So you might, you might think about acknowledging it and putting it terms of strengths as counseling or meeting with some high supply and high school kids last summer, and there was a really sharp young cat. He was applying for jobs.   56:29 18 years old. Lived in a small town in eastern Washington.   56:35 I went to college in a small town in eastern Washington. So I said, you know, there's gonna be 100 kids applying for this job, and they're gonna all have the exact same thing on that resume, but, but,   56:48 but I will guarantee you that you have something unique that they don't have. So I don't know what it is. Maybe you babysat your younger siblings. Maybe you worked the chores on the farm. Maybe you did a really cool science project as a blind person, but illustrate, illustrate your differences. Stand out. Be proud.   57:13 With that mailing, I am going to have to bid you adieu until next time it's been this hour flew by,   57:22 and I greatly appreciate you being here today.   57:26 Thank you. This was way too much fun, and I don't   57:30 want to we'll do another hour. Let's do another hour in the fall. See, see how far you've gotten. Exceptional leaders, network, beautiful and everybody join. It's fun.   57:41 See you next month, the final Thursday in May, at the same time love in Pacific, or my monthly livestream webinar, supercharge your bottom line through Disability Inclusion. Have a great day, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.   57:59 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot DRK adams.com,   58:12 together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time. Keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

Dr. LaMondré Pough is an internationally recognized speaker, entrepreneur, and disability rights advocate whose work sits at the intersection of leadership, inclusion, and lived experience. As the CEO of Billion Strong, a global nonprofit uniting people with disabilities across cultures and continents, he champions empowerment, identity, and collective voice. He also serves as the Chief Sustainability Officer for Ruh Global IMPACT and Chairman of Arts Access South Carolina, leveraging these platforms to advance equity in everything from digital inclusion to cultural accessibility. Born with spinal muscular atrophy and navigating the world as a Black man with a disability, Dr. Pough brings a deeply personal, intersectional lens to every conversation he leads. He is known for his powerful storytelling, his commitment to authentic leadership, and his unwavering belief that true inclusion begins with honoring lived experiences. Whether he's training organizations, hosting one of his podcasts like My Big Full Authentic Life, or mentoring future leaders, Dr. Pough is a passionate force for transformation—helping others not just survive, but thrive with purpose.   TRANSCRIPT:   00:00 Music.   00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams.   00:38 Welcome everybody to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, I am said, Dr Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington, where rain is lashing against the windows of my office here and with me today, I have lamondre Pugh mondre is an authentic leadership advocate and professional speaker. I have had the privilege of getting to know a bit over the past couple of years. We   01:10 broke bread together here in Seattle last summer when he was here speaking at a conference. So great to connect with you again virtually. Lamondre Listen. It's a it's a pleasure to be with you, Kirk as always. And I'll just give a super, uh, top level headline for those listening who might not know who I am. I am again, Dr Kirk Adams, I'm immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind, which is Helen Keller's organization. I was proud to lead that organization. Prior to that, the same roles here at the Lighthouse for the Blind in Seattle, which is a social enterprise employing blind and deaf, blind people in a variety of businesses and supporting people in thriving, thriving careers. I hold a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University, where I did an for my dissertation, I did an ethnographic study of blind adults successfully employed in large American corporations. I learned a lot through that process about the success factors for employment people who are blind, and the barriers which I've certainly experienced myself in my life as a frustrated, disabled job seeker, disabled employee of a major corporation or two, and then in those leadership roles at some major nonprofits, where I had the opportunity to employ a lot of people who are blind   02:41 and lamondre and I encountered one another as our advocacy paths intersected, and I asked him to join me today and to talk a little bit about his Journey.   02:59 My impairment, personally, is visual. I my retina is detached when I was five, and so I am totally blind. And as as we know, an impairment does not necessarily equal disability. That we are placed in disabling situations when the environment we're in, digital, social built   03:21 does not fit well with our personal characteristics. So the little example I use often is if I'm running a board meeting and I have my agenda and my financials and my midi reports in Braille,   03:36 my impairment doesn't matter. I'm not in a disabling situation at all. I can run the meeting as well as anyone that does not have said impairment. However, if you hand me a stack of print material, I my impairment does not fit well with the built environment of visual print. So that that puts me that's a disabling situation. So as lamondre and I have gotten to know each other,   04:05 we I believe we share the philosophy that   04:10 the lived experience of these disabling situations allows us to develop some really unique strengths in the areas of resilience and creativity and problem solving. And, you know, I had the privilege of seeing lamondre lead a conference session, and I got to hear some of his words of wisdom that he's gained through his life experience as a person with impairments and the discipline disable these situations we find ourselves in. So lamondre, you know, I don't have any set agenda here today. I just really would love to hear from you your journey, what's brought you to the point you're at now, what, what you're currently focused on, and what, what your vision for your future is, Where, where are you headed? What are you going to be accomplishing? A.   05:00 So down the road here, oh, absolutely, I will just hand the talking stick to you, and I will reserve the right to interrupt you with questions as you speak. So thanks so much for being here. Oh, no man, listen. Thank you first of all for inviting me to your platform at any time that we have the opportunity to get together. I always learn something from you. I always learn something new about you, and it's always it's always a really refreshing conversation. So I appreciate the person that you are on, the journey that you've been on, and how you're willing to share, how you're willing to share your insights and your experiences, and it's really about lifting others up, and honestly, that's what my journey is about. I like you. Am a person with a disability. I have spinal muscular atrophy as a result of spinal muscular atrophy, I'm a full time wheelchair user.   05:58 I need assistance with everything in terms of, you know, anything physical, bathing, getting out of bed, feeding, all of those things I need assistance with. The only things that I really don't need very much help with is thinking and speaking. And so I'm one person who believes that you lean into your strengths, and that's probably where I became a speaker, because I am leaning in to the strength of this big mouth that I have,   06:25 but what I've committed myself to is I committed myself to really helping people live more empowered lives, and I created this philosophy that I live by. It's called the live, big, live full and live authentic philosophy, and we can talk a little bit more about that as it progresses, but what that was, or the way that that came about, was me really trying to navigate a world where things are not necessarily set up for people like me. And I'm talking physically, I'm talking socially, I'm even talking economically, and what I realized was that I am truly responsible for my own outcomes, but having said that, I also must stand up, assert and advocate for the change that we want to see. And because of that, this philosophy really was birthed out of me just living my life the way that I had to, with all those compensatory skills that kick in and and those ways of finding unique and innovative solutions to problems that can cease being a problem once we figure out a way to accommodate for those things. And what I'm doing now is I'm simply teaching organizations and individuals how to apply this philosophy to create number one, leaders that lead from a place of value, that lead from a place of integrity, and who really want to have a positive impact in their world. But then the other thing about that is not only just to develop those leaders, but to help create environment where people can really develop a sense of belonging and begin to thrive, regardless as to what societal barriers have been put in front of them. So that's me in a nutshell. Do a lot of advocating in terms of disabilities, working with number of different organizations in terms of volunteering and just helping to make the world a better place overall.   08:36 And lamondre,   08:38 you just talked about helping organizations develop leaders that are coming from authentic places. I'm paraphrasing, can you? Can you? Leadership is something I am very interested in   08:53 as I transition from the corporate world of banking and finance after my first 10 years of the work world, into the nonprofit sector, and really got clear that I should be in the nonprofit sector, and I should be in leadership roles, and I should be working to create opportunities for other people with disabilities to thrive. I saw a leadership voice, a leadership vacuum. I saw people in nominal leadership roles, CEOs and executive directors, who were very much maintaining a status quo,   09:35 who were very risk averse.   09:38 I didn't see a lot of innovation and creativity at the leadership level. So I love for you to talk about leadership, what what it means to you, how you embrace your leadership opportunities and and how do you work with organizations through your advocacy to help strengthen leadership?   10:00 Uh, what, what, whatever you want to talk about in the broad category of leadership. I'd love to hear it. No, okay, I and I appreciate that too. Well, you know, I like you.   10:11 I believe, or let me say this, I did indeed see a vacuum in leadership, and now I actually see what I believe is a crisis in leadership, not just in the disability community, but across the board. You know, we live in a very   10:30 social media driven environment right now, and as much as we, as much as we don't, might not necessarily want to admit it, I think we have seen how platform and how   10:45 the desire for likes and follow followers, and   10:50 I would say   10:52 affirmation from others has really created problems for us. We see people that confuse platform with integrity, or the fact that you have a high follower count means that you are an authority to be listened to and to give credibility to and honestly. Those things are not necessarily true.   11:19 We see instances playing out before us every day, of people who are in leadership positions, who have the title, but they don't necessarily have the empathy, the capacity, or even the will to really lead for positive change. Now we see a lot of people doing things that's really about, as as my folks from Jamaica would say about beating themselves up. But the truth is that is not what leadership in my in my estimation of it really is, because I recognize that people have different definitions for what leadership is. And for me, leadership is really about influence. And I like to say authentic leadership is really about positive influence, about leadership that is based in integrity, about people who are guided by their values, their principles and their beliefs in order to create a positive impact in the world to find to make the human condition better than what they found it in and this is the kind of leadership that I believe that we are missing. I believe that this is the kind of leadership that is going to be required in order for us to really advance just as as people, to really save this planet in order to   12:45 I really speak to the good of humanity. I'll put it that way, and and this is the mission that I'm on. And obviously, even throughout my years, you know, advocating within the disability community, we've seen that now I've met some incredible leaders who have poured into me, who have who have given me opportunities, and who have opened doors, and now I feel like it's my job to help do that with others, and that's the mission. That's the mission that I'm on   13:15 in your role   13:17 of influence, your opportunities to influence, we know you're a professional speaker, so you you get in front of audiences, and so if you're in front of an audience of, say, corporate senior managers at a company,   13:32 what give us a taste of the types of messages and communications that that you share in order To help move things toward that I that ideal picture of authentic leadership that you just described absolutely well. First of all, again, I go back to being authentic, being real about who you are and what it is that you want to contribute. How do you want to serve? How do you want the world? How do you want to show up in the world in terms of you as an individual, in terms of your organization, and what impact, what impact are you looking to make? And what I do is I customize things, but I find what it is that they want to do, where they want to go, and my goal is to help them achieve that. Now, the other piece of what I do in helping them achieve that is I believe that number one, a part of our strength is our diversity. I believe that when you really embrace our differences, when you really embrace different thoughts, different perspectives, different lived experiences, that is the engine that drives innovation. As you said earlier in your opening statement, Kirk, we talk about, you know, people with disabilities being problem solvers. Well, guess what? We're problem solvers, because we have to be. We have to figure out ways to traverse a world that was not necessarily designed by us, for us, but nonetheless, if we still want to.   15:00 Have an impact. If we still want to survive and not only survive but thrive, we've got to come up with some innovative solutions. And that just does not stop because we figured out how you can access documents or how I can access a curb cut. It doesn't stop there. That innovation, that problem solving skills, goes throughout every aspect of my life, and it's not just people with disabilities, it's also other people who may have been from traditionally marginalized communities, they've had to develop some compensatory skills. So why not take those skills and apply them to make your company better? Why not take those skills and apply that to increase your bottom line? Why not take those skills and apply them to make your place of business a place where people want to work, where they feel seen, heard and appreciated, and want to give you their very best. You want the kind of people in your organization where they could leave, start their own, do their own thing, but they don't want to, because they love the impact that you're making, and they love the contribution that you're given to their lives. That's the kind of organizations that I help people build wonderful so you say you customize, which makes total sense, depending on who the audience is, and say, wanting to find out what what they're trying to accomplish.   16:33 Up to you whether you name names or not, name names. But can you just think of an organization you worked with and you customize an approach? And give us just a little sense of how you would work. Work with an organization that engages you as a as a speaker, absolutely. Well, there's several different organizations that I have worked with, and they range from corporations all the way to nonprofit organizations, even to some governmental entities, and every situation is different. Now, primarily, I'm a trainer and a speaker. That's what I do. I go in an organization, and if they have a need for a training, that's what we do, and we build trainings specifically for them. I just recently, just last week, two weeks ago, did a workshop, an intensive workshop, for an advocacy organization who's really trying to deal with the struggles that's happening right now. They're an advocacy or an advocacy organization that really about helping people with disabilities to live their lives more independently and obviously with what's happening in the States right now, there's a big threat that they're facing in terms of funding, in terms of in terms of how they actually get a major part of their budget. And their leaders are obviously stressed. Their leaders are trying to figure out, how do they keep their How do they keep their teams motivated and engaged in times of uncertainty? So I have this thing that I created. It's called the real power framework, and basically it is the nine pillars of what I call authentic leadership. Okay, now we're now, we're getting there. Absolutely it's the nine pillars of authentic leadership, and what I did with them. And what are those nine pillars? I'm glad you asked Kurt, number one, it's real power. Real Power is an acronym, so the acronym spells out real power. All right, so I'm taking notes. All right. Here we go. The first one is rooted, and this is being rooted in your values and self awareness understanding who you are, because in order to lead authentically, you must first know who you are and be a person that's led by your core values. The second thing is the E empowered, empowered through emotional clarity and emotional connection. So we're talking about the empathy part. We're talking about emotional intelligence, about being able to understand where you are and understand where other people are and what triggers them and what triggers you, and having measured responses to that, then the next letter is the A in real and that's accountability, being true to your word and your vision, making certain that you stick to what the mission of the organization is, and even your own personal mission, and that you show up and you're consistent in following through with what you said. Then the next thing is the L, and that's leading in action. That's about leading with intentionality that is not just ideas, but we're looking to for ways that we can lead and be effective in what it is that we're doing. Now, the P in power stands for psychological safety, and this is about creating the environments, creating rules.   20:00 Rooms where others feel seen and heard, but in an authentic way, in a real way, not this, not this, not this fake optimism thing, but really creating environments where people can express what they're thinking, what they're feeling, what they're experiencing, without being judged, or without feeling that there may be some kind of retaliation, in other words, creating safe spaces for the people that you're serving by leading. Then the next one is the O, because that was P O. So the O is for being open, being open to feedback, being open to growth, being open to change. There is   20:46 so many things. There are so many things that's going on right now in terms of how quickly change is coming. Now, we can hunker down and cower, or we can just accept the fact that change is inevitable, and in order for us to not only survive but to thrive in it, we have to be open to change and figure out how our vision can best support the mission of what's changing around us. So that's what it is. It's about being open, and then the W is having a willingness to collaborate by CO creating instead of controlling, by allowing that, that innovation that we talked about, that you intrinsically get from diversity and from people from different backgrounds, By allowing that to have space by allowing that to breathe. So being open and willing to collaborate, I often say it's amazing what you can accomplish when you're willing to let go some of some of the control and allow people to contribute what they can to a thing. And it's amazing, many times what ends up happening is you end up growing something far better, far bigger than you ever even imagined yourself. So the willingness to collaborate, and then the E, the last E in power, is about being emotionally resilient, because, listen, challenges are going to come. Change is going to come, but when it does come, it's about having the emotional resilience to withstand that, to process it, to see it for what it is, and bounce back. You know, it's almost cliche when people say this now, but it's true, and this is something that I live by. It's not about how many times you get knocked down, it's about how many times you get back up. And the truth is emotional resilience allows you to get back up, to bounce back, and then the R the final thing is to be results oriented. And all I mean by that is that we need to focus, to focus on purpose driven impact. Listen, we can be passionate about things all we want to. We can have all of the the   23:15 we can have, all of the empathy we can have, all the emotional intelligence we can have all of those things firing on all cylinders. But if we're not accomplishing something, if we're not actually moving the mission forward, then what is it for? Then why are we doing that? Leadership is also not just influence, but it's influenced with impact. What are we changing? What are we doing? What are we creating? What are we building? How are we accomplishing what it is, and how do we know that we're accomplishing what it is? So that was the fastest I have ever explained my real power frame like I wrote them all. So I will, I will read them over and reflect. So   24:02 you very recently did customized training for a disability advocacy organization that's obviously feeling the chaos. And you said earlier that you need to identify what your   24:19 client, customer of the organization you're working with. What? What are they trying to accomplish? So, right, in this case, what? What, what were they wanting from the training? What, what were they what were they intending that you would help them move forward with? Well, what they really were looking at is ways to help develop their leaders further, because they have some incredible leads. And this was really a great group to work with. They have some incredible emerging leaders, but honestly, many of them liked the confidence to feel like they could really make a difference in and you know, you mentioned something earlier, as as we were chatting about.   25:00 Out some of the leaders that you saw were being risk averse, and this is one of the issues that we saw. And sometimes in leadership, you have to take risk. Now that doesn't mean that you take, you know, just wild, flagrant things that, right? Hey, we could just sink the entire ship, but you have to be willing. You have to be willing to risk something. Yes, leadership requires sacrifice. Sometimes, bottom line, yeah, bottom line, you have to be willing to look silly. Sometimes, you have to be willing to fail. And if you do, at least create the environment where, number one, you are empowered enough and emotionally mature enough to own up to it that you have the accountability to say, Yep, my bad. I messed up here. And those kinds of things. When you bring those kinds of things to the table, you empower people in ways unimaginable. So one of the main problems that they had was just that was having leaders Emerging Leaders giving them the confidence and the tools that they need and able to really grow into the roles that they that they've been working in.   26:13 I just makes me think of something I learned when I was at the American Foundation for the Blind, and it was a financial turnaround situation on a pretty dire one. As far as the revenue streams had shifted and   26:30 they were they had not adapted quickly enough, and maybe it was wouldn't have been possible to adapt quickly enough to the very big changes they had in the revenue streams, which were related to be quests that were generated by Helen Keller's work. But   26:46 one of the, one of the people I brought in to help with strategic planning said, you know, you're going to have to do, you're going to have to do some things that are other some, some people might consider some of the things you're doing to be pretty wild. And he said, we just want to, we want to maintain our understanding of the difference between wild and reckless. So when you were speaking of the need to take risks, that's that's what came to mind. Sometimes you got to do some things that are going to disrupt and shake things up. Some people might think they're wild, but again, if you're a steward of an organization, you can't be reckless. That's a little bit of a fine line. Oh, absolutely there is. And I'll even, you know, look at it from this perspective, in this day and age, the way that things are now, anything you do that is progressive or different is going to be a risk anything you do right now. So the thing is to really get do your homework, do what you can. But the thing after that is to step fearlessly, to step with intention. Once you've done your homework, once you've once you've done the things that you could do, to make certain that you know, everything that you could think of is covered step forward. There is a bravery in that, there is a confidence, there is a courage that's required to do that, and knowing that you could fall, that you could fail, but failure is not the end. All. Learn from it. People don't need perfect leaders. And see this is one of the things that I think holds a lot of people back from really embracing who they are as leaders. They think to themselves, what if I fail? What if I mess up? What if I'm not the person that they think that I am and I'm exposed? Well, here's the deal. There is not one perfect leader. Nowhere on this earth, no human. No human is perfect. And the truth is, the world doesn't need your perfection. The world needs your presence. The world doesn't need leaders who have not made mistakes. The world needs leaders who have learned from those mistakes and are willing to still move forward. And this is the message. This is what I'm passionate about. This is what I'm trying to bring to the table. And I'll tell you, I also work with major corporations as well. I recently did a training with a major corporation. This was a series of training, and we were dealing with their C suite and their management level teams. And this was a manufacturing organization, and they are located in a place where the company is an international company, not from the States. However, there they have a hub here, and the place that they put their hub,   29:45 the culture was really different than what they were used to, and they were having some serious problems. And the leaders and the management started counting or started categorizing these folks, and.   30:00 Is, they don't want to work. They're coddled,   30:03 you know, if we just throw money at them, you know, that'll change it. And what ended up happening was, in the middle of one of their meetings, in the middle of one of their meetings, they announced a bonus. They announced a bonus that was a significant bonus with some real money, and they did not get the reaction they expected. Instead of cheering on applause, they got booed,   30:29 an audible Boo from the audience, and this rocked them. And so I was called, and they found me on LinkedIn, which was amazing to me. They found me on LinkedIn. We started yes   30:47 and and we started a conversation, and I put together something for them that would help them understand the culture, that helped to break down some of the barriers,   31:01 and also also help them to understand that not everything is fixed with money. People want to be seen, heard, right and valued. I have to ask, what was the emotion that was stirred in their their people, that led them to boo, being told they were getting a bonus? Well, what was, what was about that, that that was the thing. It was a very closed off environment, and people were not consulted as to what the real need was. Now, of course, they were happy for money, but that did not address their more immediate problems. These people were way overworked, way overworked. I mean, so much so that some of the preliminary work that we did, you know, of course, we asked about, what are the challenges, what are the issues? And you allowed them to do that anonymously, and they were talking about how, you know, they had family vacations planned that had been approved, and it was taken away, okay, because of all the stuff that say, Oh, we don't want your hush money. We want you to fix the problem, fix what the problem is, and we want you to see us as people. We want you to see us as humans. It was amazing to me. I one of the exercises that I did, and I did a number of trainings with them, but one of the exercises I did, I did this with the upper level management and some folks from the C suite and in the room, I asked them, I said, What made you choose this particular organization? What made you choose? And it's a very prestigious organization. So they said things like, you know, the challenge, the pride of being associated with the such, such an   32:40 August legacy. And they talked about what they wanted for their families and what they wanted to show their kids, and how they how they wanted to have a legacy in terms of their careers. And as they said this, it was beautiful. It was really, really beautiful. Their hearts were open. And then I asked them about the people that they complained about, I said, and what was their reason? Why would they choose to come to this place? Do you think that they saw the prestige? Do you think that they have dreams and aspirations? Have you asked them about it? And it was funny, because having them in that emotional place, and then putting that same thing to the people that they were complaining about, the people that booed them, it changed something, because they said they never thought about it. They never thought about what motivated those people to get out of bed every day. It wasn't just a paycheck. You're paying them well, it wasn't just a paycheck. These people have dreams, hopes and aspirations. It was almost like they needed to see them as human. They needed to see them as having the same desires, dreams and aspirations. Everybody wants their children to go to good schools and be safe and be well educated. These people do too. They want to see you as a part of the community. They want to be a part of the community, and they want you to be a part of it too. So it was really kind of level setting.   34:13 So I feel that you're very adept and intuitive and attuned to understand what the right question is to ask.   34:24 I hope so,   34:26 because that's what so much of leadership is. It's about asking the right questions. Yeah, absolutely so Wow. This time has flown by, but I do want to ask about your what,   34:39 what does stepping out fearlessly for lamondre Pugh look like here over the next couple of years. What are you? What are you? What are you as aspiring to create in your life and with your advocacy? Well, I tell you,   34:55 Okay, that's a great question, because this last the.   35:00 Last year has been super challenging for me, and I've had to make a major pivot in terms of of my business and the approach. But I'll tell you, and this is just being transparent and vulnerable. This is one of the scariest things that I've ever had to do in terms of in terms of putting something that I have held as a personal philosophy and a personal guidepost for my life, and now sharing it with the world. And this is,   35:35 this is what my real power framework was built on. It's a philosophy that I have, and it's called Live, big, live full and live authentic. And I'm putting it out there. I'm putting it out there in terms of helping people with leadership development, helping organizations build, build and develop leaders that have a real impact, that are values LED. And I'm also using it in terms of a personal development tool for people who are not necessarily looking at doing something in industry or anything like that. They just want to use it to empower their own personal lives. Um,   36:14 I've never put anything out there this personal before. So this is the this is the challenge. This is the challenge for me now, and I'm going to continue to do that. I'm going to continue to put that out there, you know, offer programs, offer content, offer things that I believe will help, will help people become more of who their purpose to be and who they're created to be, and I'm doing that with corporations, with nonprofit organizations, with individuals alike and   36:50 yeah, just want to be. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. And I, I've, I've counted a blessing in my life that we were introduced to one another deepened our relationship over time. I know that's going to going to continue, and I, I will happily share you with the rest of the world. Lamondre, so how do people get in touch with you? Absolutely? Well, you can follow me on any social media platform. My name is lamondre, l, a, m, O, N, D, R, E. Last name is pew, P, O, U, G, H, so Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all the social media platforms, some of them like Instagram and x, it's la mandre underscore p, because I've been hacked before and get my can get my original stuff back, but you can also visit my website. It's lamondre pugh.com   37:45 that's L, A, M, O, N, D, R, E, P, O, U, G, h.com,   37:51 and you can check out my new podcast that's about to premiere on in April. Awesome. Yeah. It's called the live, big, live, full, live, authentic, Daily Affirmation podcast. You can check that out if you want to go to that website. It's simply, I will subscribe. I use an app that's very accessible for podcast management called eye catcher.   38:16 Find you and I will subscribe. Please, do please. We'll do it and and that's what it is, man. So live authentic daily.com that's live authentic daily.com   38:27 nice. And we can find you on LinkedIn, as we mentioned earlier, and me as well. So if you want to find me, it's Kirk Adams PhD on LinkedIn. My website is Dr Kirk adams.com so D, R k, i, r k, A, D, A, M, s.com,   38:47 I know lamondre shares the sentiment that we will happily talk to anyone listening to this podcast about inclusion, leadership, personal development, bravery, resilience, whatever you uh, whatever has resonated with you our discussion today, we would happily dig into it more deeply with you. So please do reach out to lamondre and or myself, and thanks for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams,   39:17 thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a [email protected]   39:28 Kirk adams.com,   39:30 together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time. Keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, Dr. Kirk Adams speaks with Aaron Di Blasi, Sr. PMP for Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. (https://mvsltd.com) and Publisher for the Top Tech Tech Tidbits (https://toptechtidbits.com/), Access Information News (https://accessinformationnews.com), AI-Weekly (https://ai-weekly.ai) and Title II Today (https://title2.info) newsletters. Subtitle: Blind and Low-Vision Workshop By Aaron Di Blasi and Dr. Kirk Adams: Copywriting With AI. How To Generate Professional, High Quality, High Ranking, Accurate, Long Form Copy For Your Personal or Business Brand Using The Premium Versions of Foundational AI Models. 👉 Learn more today at: https://DrKirkAdams.com. 🧑 Aaron Di Blasi: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aarondiblasi/ 🚀 Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd.: https://mvsltd.com/ ♿ Top Tech Tidbits: https://toptechtidbits.com/ ♿ Access Information News: https://accessinformationnews.com/ 🤖 AI-Weekly: https://ai-weekly.ai 🏛️ Title II Today: https://title2.info   TRANSCRIPT:   00:00 Music.   00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   00:38 Hello everybody. This is Dr Kirk Adams speaking to you from my home office in sunny Seattle, Washington. And this is a very special edition of my monthly live stream webinar, which I call super charge your bottom line through disability inclusion. And today I have a wonderful guest and a colleague and partner in crime. Aaron Di Blasi, as we work together to accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in our society, it was with mindful solutions. And Aaron, if you could give me a quick headline of who you are, I will start back to you shortly for more. Hello, everyone. My name is Aaron Di Blasi. I am the Senior Project Management Professional for a digital marketing firm out of Cleveland, Ohio, by the name of Mind Vault Solutions Limited. I am also the publisher for the Top Tech Tidbits, Access Information News, AI weekly, excuse me, and now, Title Two Today, newsletters, if you're familiar with any of those. I also work closely with Dr Adams to do his digital marketing as well.   01:47 Thanks, Aaron. So I got, I became acquainted with Aaron and actually through the apex program, which is www dot the apex program.com which is a virtual training program to launch blind people into cyber security. And I had connected with Aaron around that, and he   02:14 helped us promote the program through his publications. And as our relationship deepened, Aaron said things like, you should start a podcast, you should have a YouTube channel.   02:27 Yeah, you should write blogs. You need a, you need a, yeah. The difference is, you listen. No one else listens. Though, you listened every time. Seriously, kudos. Really. You need a website that's more focused on your overall brand, yeah, and so, and he listens, yeah. We piece by piece, we've been building this web presence, and part of this is generating content. And for those who don't know me, just super brief again, I'm Dr Kirk Adams. I'm a blind person. Have been since age five. My retina is detached. I went to a school for blind kids, first second and third grade in the state of Oregon, learn how to read and write Braille, which I do constantly travel confidently, independently with a long white cane. Learned how to type on a typewriter so I could start public school in fourth grade and type my assignments and spelling tests and things for sighted teachers. And I also was given just this wonderful set of experiences, which gave me a great internal locus of control, just a belief that I could do whatever I wanted to do, and that was largely through outdoor experience. It was in Oregon, we backpacked and camped in the Three Sisters wilderness area, we   03:43 went up on Mount Hood and build, build big snow forts out of snowball huge snowballs. We went to the Oregon coast in the tide pools. And so I just had that sense of how to love my body as a little blind kid. And was   03:58 given some great gifts there at that school, was the only blind student in all of my classes, from fourth grade through my through my PhD. So also had experiences as a academically high achieving young college student, blind having the challenges of trying to find employment. So I've had those experience, frustrating experiences as a blind job seeker. I've I've also had the privilege of employing many, many hundreds of blind people as   04:31 the president, CEO of the Seattle Lighthouse for the Blind, and American Foundation for the Blind. So employment is my jam and   04:42 and I've also become involved in a number of startup companies using Disability tech to accelerate inclusion. And through all of this, I have   04:55 been generating a lot of content. I've done a lot of writing in my day. And of course.   05:00 Course, as AI became more present in the world, I learned through doing so, I wanted to try to use AI whenever I could ask questions. I started to try to use it to assist in some writing. And then I discovered that Aaron   05:22 had done a lot more with that than I had,   05:26 had a lot more skill and insight than I had, and   05:32 we've generated some content together where I've given him some bare bones and some thoughts and some notes, and he's gonna show some examples of that. Yeah,   05:42 that's okay, yeah, yeah. He's come back and said, you know, what do you think of this? And he, he readily says, you know, I used, I used AI as a tool   05:53 to enhance   05:55 what you sent me. So we, we thought   06:01 that blind people in particular   06:05 could really be using AI to generate content more effectively and efficiently in order for us to all move our personal missions forward. So we thought we would share some knowledge today, and Aaron proposed we do a workshop, and I proposed we do it during my regularly scheduled monthly live stream webinar time. So here we are. Thank you for joining us, yeah, and thanks everyone who's here live, and thank you for all of you out there in the future we're viewing the recording. So Aaron, I'm going to hand you the talking stick, and I'm here to learn from you. So I will probably pop in with with questions from time to time. I hope so, and I have no you will, and I know you will allow time for questions. Oh, for sure, from our audience, very good.   07:01 All right, everyone. Well, just to top this off, I guess we'll start with the title, blind and low vision workshop, how to generate professional, high quality, high ranking, accurate, long form copy. Sorry for all that, for your personal or business brand using the premium versions of foundational AI models. The reason we included all of those words is because it's very specific to the type of copy that we're going to be talking about today.   07:26 It's very easy. Let's just start with this analogy to open up chat, G, P, T, and say, write me a blog post about dot, dot, dot, and it will okay. But unfortunately, the internet is filled with that kind of I   07:39 don't want to say garbage. A lot of people call it garbage, but it, unfortunately, in SEO terms, is garbage because it doesn't rank well, it doesn't do much for your brand, and it certainly doesn't do much for other people in the marketing field that read it and see that it was just simply generated with one prompt. So what people want to know is, they want to know, how do I get it to not only sound human? I mean, that is kind of the number one concern, I think, is that they want it to sound human, which we cover, that that's no problem. But more than anything, they want the context there that the model might not have. And today we're going to go over how to give the model all of the context that it needs and all of the timing that it needs to basically perform as though AI were five years from now. It's a pretty cool workaround. So we're going to start with an example. Recently, Dr Adams attended CSUN, and while he was in CSUN, he sent me daily summaries using Siri. He just simply transcribed them and sent them to me via text. I collected these texts into a document which was basically kind of him writing the article, but it was not in the article form. It was just his thoughts on what had happened, you know, people that he had met. This is, this is correct. These were notes on the fly that I just dictated as a text, right? Exactly. And then we just aggregated choppy, non sequential, thank you, exactly. That's what I want to point out. Yeah. This is not him writing, you know, an article, but by any sense, just kind of reporting what he had discovered. Okay, so now we take that and we're going to make that a piece of what we're going to go over today. Okay,   09:10 just to lay the groundwork for anyone who cannot see, we're going to have 10 steps that we're going to go over, and then we're going to have 10 preliminary things that we're going to describe. So there are 10 preliminaries and then 10 steps to the process. A lot of people start the process at write me a blog post about. Our number 10 step is going to be write me a blog post about so we're going to talk about what those other nine steps actually are. Okay, but before we do that, we're going to open up with just a couple of things, software tools that we're going to use in this course of using Google Chrome, which is just a web browser. I'll be using chat GPT, plus the $20 a month version, not the $200 a month version, nothing we need there currently. And I'll also be using Microsoft Word and notepad. Those are just for data. The purpose of Microsoft Word right now. And a lot of people use just pure text and say, why would you use.   10:00 Word because we have belief that in the future, in the very near future, llms will be able to not only parse the text in the Word document, but the hyperlinks attached to the text in the Word document, and that could make for some very serious contextual advantages in the future. So I would recommend you use Microsoft Word, where you can to store your quote, unquote databases, because they will have links attached to them that would be lost if you were to use text. Makes sense to everybody, okay. Number two, the computer platform that I'm using for the courses, windows, 11, desktop, but obviously you could use Mac. You could do this on mobile. You know, it works on on any platform that you can use an LLM.   10:39 Number three, what is a foundation model?   10:42 Just to clear this up, a foundation model is the context of artificial intelligence and machine learning at large scale that is trained on extensive data sets and serves as a base for various downstream tasks. Think chat, GPT, basically. Think Gemini, think Claude. These are major foundational models. They are closed. They're not open source. We'll get into that later. That's not really important right now, but these are the frontier models. These are the models that are currently behaving the best. They are giving us the highest quality. And of those three models, in our testing, we have found that chat, GPT, believe it or not, is the best writer. I know that a lot of people currently believe that Claude is the best writer, but I think what they're talking about is writing in the form of once upon a time, as in writing a story from scratch and keeping the narrative going. Claude does very well with that, for some reason, but chat GPT seems to do much better at original and creative writing, especially the kind that we're going to be doing today. So that's why we chose it. If anyone has any questions about that. So the competing versions would be Gemini for $20 a month and anthropic Claude for $20 a month. They'll all do the same thing, but these techniques that we're going to use today can also be used on the free version. You'll just have limits to how many   11:52 chats you can use. Okay, so moving on to number four. This is one of the most important contexts here. So listen up to this one, if you can what is a rolling context window.   12:04 The rolling context window allows the model to process and consider a fixed maximum number of tokens at any given moment in the session. This is the model's memory, essentially. And when you say, write me a blog post about Dot. Dot, dot, the model can only give you back results within this window, the single window, and that's why these posts are always small. They're always roughly 4096 characters or less, because that's the window. They're very easy to identify as AI generated, okay, the stuff we're going to do today. Aaron, this Yes. Kirk, so how do I know how big that window is? How much? Great question. Buy it off. Gotcha? Because I have noticed that sometimes, if I've asked,   12:48 take these three documents and combine it, you know, summarize it, it'll tail off toward the end and it won't all the words won't be there, won't be dramatically Correct. Okay, that's well, that there's a number of reasons that can happen that sounds more like a cutoff assumption. I've never experienced anything quite like that. When summarizing, let's go back to the first question. Yeah, no, that's okay, yeah,   13:15 gotcha. So here's some frame of reference for you, and let me give you the ones that won't matter first. Okay, 128,000   13:21 token rolling context window. That means nothing to most people. That's okay. We're going to convert that into Word document pages at 12 point font, just to give people an idea, because that's how most people parse things. Okay? That is roughly 205 pages of Word document at 12 point font. Now that's its entire memory throughout the entire conversation, not just one ask. So that is the maximum amount of context that it can hold in its mind while it's talking to you. The vast majority of people only use about 1% of this memory, but today we're going to use almost 100%   13:58 if that makes sense.   14:00 Any questions from you?   14:03 No, okay, okay. I can relate to Okay. Claude and Gemini have different rolling context windows, and they're larger, okay? And this can really benefit you if you are trying to put something together that has very large context. And we'll explain what that means once we get into the 10 steps. But just for informational purposes. Anthropic Claude is 200,000   14:25 token rolling context window, which is roughly 320 pages in a Word document for frame of reference. Now Google, Gemini, which is one of our favorite for research, is a 1.5 million token rolling context window, which is roughly 2400 pages of a Word document in a single conversation. That's why we tend to use it for very large research projects, because of its large text window, if that makes sense, but chat GPT gives better quality and it's much smaller context window. The larger the context window gets, the harder it becomes for the model to remember all of the context so the looser the answers become.   14:59 Okay?   15:00 So moving on to number six. What is a single chat context window? Now this is this is the limit. This is what everyone cannot get around. The single chat context window refers to the span of tokens that a language model can process in a single chat interaction, encompassing both the input tokens, which includes your prompt or query, and the output tokens the models response. It defines the amount of information the model can, quote, remember or consider at any given moment in a conversation. This amount is 4096 tokens. Comes out to about six pages in a Word document. So anytime you speak to chat GPT, you only have roughly six pages in and out what it's going to say to you and what you're going to say to it. So essentially, you have three pages because its response is generally 50% of the token output. So anything more than three pages in a single conversation, and it's going to truncate, it's going to give you issues, which may be one of the things that you described earlier when you uploaded a bunch of documents. And I think, yeah, we're going to get to how you can get around that, though, you know, with large documents, I'll show you a different way that you can do it. Okay, so number eight, we're getting close to the end here. Why the limit, the 4096 token limit that is returned in a single response, and this is across models, chat, GPT, Gemini and Claude, is likely to be capped at this value for practical reasons such as computational efficiency, user interface usability and avoiding overly large outputs that are hard to handle in one go. In short, this limit is not necessary, but it's currently here just to keep people in check, so to speak. So that is a limit that we are going to get around today, and we're going to teach people how to create entire documents that are cohesive, that are far more than 4096 tokens, which is all that it can return at one chat, if that makes sense. And we'll show you how to get around that. Okay, number nine, research tool examples for aggregating and assembling the data corpus for each subject. We're going to talk about this, but there's some tools that we're going to use to assemble data, because we're not going to trust the data that the LLM has. We're going to provide it with all the data ahead of time, and the tools that we use to gather that data is obviously Google search. We do Google, Google search. Perplexity has really come a long way. Notebook, LM, chat, GPT itself, we will ask to generate reports, especially with deep research now, and also we use Google 1.5 well it's 2.0 now. Grow with deep research. We use that as well, and we use these tools basically to generate current informational reports on our subjects or author before we go ahead and create the actual article.   17:26 All that makes sense.   17:30 Yep, following so far. Okay, great. Number 10, this we will cover later, but it's called the pair method. I just want to put this in everyone's brain. Pair, P, A, R, E, stands for Prime, augment, refresh, evaluate, but all you have to remember is prime. Prime is going to be the most important piece of this framework that we're going to use. You also don't have to worry about remembering any of this, because all of it's in a document that we will provide you after the course. So all you have to do is listen, okay, and this moves us on to the actual process for creating an article. And as we do this article, we're going to take the example of Dr Adams recent visit at CSUN,   18:08 and we're going to identify the subjects on the author. So we are ready to get started on the actual process. Do you have any questions before we do DR Adams,   18:17 I want to see how you spun my straw into gold. All   18:22 right. Well, here's how we did it. Okay, step number one of 10, identify the author of the final article that you want to create. This is kind of obvious. In this case, the author is Dr Kirk Adams. Why is that important? Because we have to build a corpus of that author, preferably with text that that author has written themselves. This is not a requirement. You can build an AI persona for someone who has not written their own text, but since Dr Adams has a beautiful dissertation in place and plenty of text that he has written by himself long before AI came along, we aggregate all of that data and we sample from it in order to pull a statistical analysis of the way that Dr Adams writes specifically, and chat GPT does this really well, and it it's a really great workaround, but you identify your author first, and then you put together a corpus about that author, as much information as you have. If it's only a single page Word document, that's all you know about them. Then you start with that. But for Dr Adams, for instance, we have his dissertation. We have probably 300 or 400 pages, you know, on him, I would say probably 200 of which he has written himself. So it's a very good statistical sampling for each article. So I strongly recommend that you don't need it, but it's something that you want to build over time. And as you generate articles for that author, you want to read those articles on the back end, back to that author's corpus for future generations. That makes sense. Okay, so that's step one, we identify the author, and we prepare a corpus of that author, and we set that aside. Step two, we aggregate, assemble and verify the data corpus for the author. We just said that. Step three, identify the number of subjects that your final article will require. Now in this case.   20:00 Case, this is something that you kind of have to do as a human being. You have to go in and see what you know, who did Dr Adams talk about, what are the subjects? So let's pull the subjects out of CSUN. There's CSUN itself. We need to tell the LLM all about CSUN. So we have a database for all about CSUN here at The Vault, and we dropped that in. He mentioned three players at CSUN, Awarewolf Gear, Case for Vision and Top Tech Tidbits. So we need to let the LLM know about all three of those subjects as well. So we prepare a data corpus for Awarewolf Gear. We prepare a data corpus for Case for Vision, and we prepare a data corpus for Top Tech Tidbits, and we drop those in along with the author and CSUN data corpuses. We're almost done. He also mentioned that there was uncertainty from disability organizations. Now this is more an ideal than an actual thing, but it is still something that we can research and give the LLM knowledge about current knowledge about. So for this, we went to Gemini growth deep research and asked it as of today to give us the most current research on the current state of uncertainty from disability organizations around the current political climate, di etc, and it generated a beautiful report on the current state of what's going on. We use that as a corpus and drop that in along with CSUN, a werewolf gear case for vision top tickets, and CSUN and the author corpus for Dr Adams. So we have our jaws. Tells me someone would like the definition of the data corpse. Oh, data corpus. Let's just call it a Word document, a database. It used to be SQL. It used to be a data corpus. Today it's just a Word document with data in it. I'm sorry for the extreme word, but it is still a data corpus. Each one is but basically, you're just building a Word document or text file about each subject, and you're saving those files because you're going to use those files as a base for what we're going to do next.   21:45 Sound good? Yep. Okay, on we go, all right, aggregate, assemble and verify the data corpus for each subject. So let's assume that we just did that, and we have all of those files ready on our computer. I know that's a tall order, especially for blind people. I don't want to seem like we're glossing over that, but we do only have an hour, and that's the reason that we're making this the way that we are. But I understand that's a lot of work, and it can take a lot of time, but as a digital marketing agency, when you do this for someone you know, like Dr Adams or a different client, it it definitely pays for itself in the long run, because by the end of it, you'll be able to generate articles much more quickly, much more high quality than even a team of humans could in the same amount of time. So that's the idea. Okay, so step number six, we're going to use the provided role prime prompt. You remember we talked about that earlier. I said you only need to remember prime so that's all we're going to do right now.   22:37 So basically, we're going to take these documents that we have, 1234567,   22:41 documents. We're going to go into chat GPT, and we're going to use a feature called projects. What projects allows us to do in chat GPT is list a number of documents and then go ask questions about those documents. You can get around this by providing the documents directly in the chat as you speak, but you will be limited by the context window that we talked about earlier, you'll run into the issue that Dr Adams described, where it will be cut off if you use projects, it uses a different technology called rag retrieval, augmented generation. We won't get into what that is, but it does not have a limit. Is the point. So you want to take these files, add them to a project, and then in this project chat window, with all of these files in tow. We are going to prime each subject and and the author. We're going to start with the author, and we're going to prime the author, and we're going to say, I'm going to read you the prompt that we're going to provide you. But I call it, tell me everything there is to know about dot, dot, dot. That's what I call it. So in the chat, I type in, tell me everything there is to know about Dr Kirk Adams. That is not the actual prompt. It's very long. I'm going to read it here in a second, but that's the idea. And we press enter, and it goes into this project files, and it sees those 400 pages that we have on Dr Adams, and it pulls this outline, so to speak. Basically what it's doing is it's pulling from the project files all of the information into its memory so that it does not have to hallucinate or guess about who Dr Adams is. In addition, it is sampling his writing style, his statistical, mathematical writing style, so that it can duplicate it later on, when you ask it to Okay, once we've done that for the author in the same chat window, we then proceed to do the same thing for each subject. Tell me everything there is to know about CSUN. And it goes into the project files, and it details everything that it knows about CSUN. And then we when it's done with that, we say, tell me everything there is to know about a werewolf gear. And it goes and it describes everything. Now, mind you, this is all in the same chat. So about Dr Adams, same chat, CSUN. Same chat, a werewolf gear? Same chat, case revision. Same chat, top check tidbits. Same chat, uncertainty from disability organizations, same chat. Now, when we're done with that, we've got all of this context loaded into the models memory. Okay, we're going to move on to I don't think I'm going to read the prompt. It's very long, but you will get it as part of this program, and you can swap out the author or subject in the prompt that you want it to.   25:00 The whole from the corpus, from the database. Okay, so we move on to number seven at this point, once role prime context has been delivered into the chat for the author and each subject and refined by pair as needed. We'll get to that later, because you can refine each subject and author if there's a specific thing that they want to say. For instance, Dr Adams provided a bunch of detail on CSUN, but I didn't decide to use it at this point. We'll use it later. I'll show you where that comes in. Here we are Step seven. Ask chatgpt to provide you with five possible article title examples from author about the final topic that you wish for author to write about. Select one of these five titles for the final article or some combination thereof. This is a wonderful time with all of the context present in the chat. To ask chat GPT for five possible article titles that author would write about said subject, considering all of the context that it knows about author and it knows doctor, yeah, does the choice of the title flavor the article, does it influence? Yes, it does everything. Flavors everything, because it is statistical analysis between words, so even changing the single case of a letter will affect the output. So yes, it does definitely. And the titles that it suggests are definitely in consideration of who you are, what you've written. It's interesting. It really takes into account everything that you've written before as well, which is why we do it at this point in the chat, because it now knows everything about you that makes sense.   26:36 Okay, all right, so at this point   26:41 we it gives us back five titles. We choose one of those titles, okay? Or some combination. Usually, I like a combination of two of the titles. It never it usually does a good job on like the first and the third one. So I'll put those together. And in step number eight, this is where the magic happens. This is where we sidestep that 4096   26:58 context window limit. This is where you get to do what no one else can do, and this is how, and as if you're an academic, you will recognize this shortcut Step eight, use the provided prompt to generate an outline. Listen to that outline for the final article title, copy and paste the final outline into a Word document. Now the chat GPT, at this point will generate an entire outline, and that outline will be within the 4096 character limit. But the great part about it is we're going to refeed that outline in one section at a time and have it write the article for just that section. Now what this allows us to do is make each section of the outline have a 4096 token limit rather than the entire article.   27:44 And this makes a huge, huge difference in your ability to generate long form content. You could literally generate probably a 200 Well, roughly 190 page article, and with context, using this method, so that is kind of the same. So mechanically, you've generated out while you put it in a Word document. Then do you just copy and paste each I'm going to get to that we're going to step up in that. Okay, use the generated outline in tandem with the following prompt. Now we've provided a specific prompt that we use to do this. You can use ours to start, but I encourage you to experiment. But this prompt will do a really good job. Use the generated outline in tandem with the provided prompt to generate the final article one outline section at a time. Do not provide more than one outline section at a time. Do not provide any additional chat or context. And in between providing each outline section for generation, copy each final article section as it is generated and paste it into a separate word document.   28:44 This gives you the final article from chat. GPT, okay. It is at this point that a human being needs to edit that article, review that article. Hallucinations still happen. This is still an LLM, you want to make sure it didn't, you know, say that Dr Kirk Adams used to be president in the United States, or, you know, it can do things like that. So you want to check through we've never had any hallucinations ourselves, but we have to recommend that you look through it and make sure that there are none. This is generally where we provide it to the client. Dr Adams will sign off on it or make any small edits that he wants or likes, which are generally few. And then that article goes into what we call production, gets turned into HTML. SEO is done on it. Keywords are pulled, etc, and we begin publication one. One thing that pops up sometimes is when referring to blind people as a group, it might, might say them, and I will change it to us. We hate that I am also a blind person and part of the community. So that you know that that's one that I've seen more than once, but they are very minor. I haven't seen any I haven't seen anything factual, right, right? Nor have I. But again, I think the way that you get those hallucinations is lack of context, you know? So here we're providing a TON TON TON of context. So the hallucinations drop to this.   30:00 0.000   30:01 point. You know, it's really, it's negligible. So that's kind of the beauty of the of the process, and that's what we use here. That's what we use for you. That's what we use for probably 20 other clients across the world. They're very happy with it. Just know that this may not last long. You know, the llms are changing, you know, in the way that this works may change in the future as well, and just to speak specifically to blind persons, I know how difficult this must be, and if you have any thoughts on how to copy and paste large amounts of text back and forth between documents, I know that there's anchors and all types of other workarounds that we can use. I would love to put something together, an article in the future that helps blind marketing professionals specifically to implement this workflow. So if you have any ideas, please reach out to me or Dr Adams and let us know   30:50 a question or two. Certainly, I also talked about a couple other things in the text I sent you. I talked about AI and how many of the presentations touched upon AI? There was a lot of excitement about AI and accessibility that there's some talk with universal design and incorporating AI into Universal Design that   31:21 add on. Assistive technology may not be needed in the future. There was some excitement around that.   31:29 There was also concern about the bias that is represented by AI, because AI is made up of data points, and people with disabilities use technology less than people without disabilities, so our data of our lived experiences is underrepresented. So you get you get some you get some things.   31:54 You know, Jenny lay flurry,   31:56 Chief Accessibility Officer at Microsoft, David, gave a presentation.   32:01 They are. They are now they have a partnership with Be My Eyes. They're they're now receiving data through the beam. Be my AI usage that they're anonymizing and and aggregating.   32:15 But you know, she, she put up an example of people saying   32:20 to a i I'm blind, and I need to do this, this and this. And, you know, the the AI saying, I'm, I'm sorry to hear you're blind. Think, think that that was, that was an example. So there is concern about bias, and how is AI out? As AI evolves, can be,   32:42 as people with disabilities, be proactive   32:47 in   32:49 addressing that, and   32:53 so any any comments you might have on that, just AI in general, what you're seeing, You're saying you're working with 20 clients using the type of generative process you just talked about.   33:07 I just love your personal take, take on the State of the Union as far as AI and disability and accessibility. Certainly, certainly, I think the big conversation right now that everyone is having is the effect that AI will have on accessibility. There's the will AI eat accessibility conversation, and I think there's a lot of nuance to that conversation.   33:33 I think the one missing element in that conversation is timing, because we say, will AI eat accessibility. I mean, 30 years from now, sure, I think, I don't think anyone would argue that, you know, but a year from now, two years from now, who knows? You know, those are the bets that are current. When's it going to happen? How is it going to happen? What's it going to look like, and specifically, how will it affect blind people? I think a lot of these questions are going to be answered very soon. Amazon plus is coming out, which is going to be huge. It's going to be huge for me, you know, I know it's huge for blind people. It will be the first time an LLM has really been merged with voice in the way that I believe blind people need it to be, you know, kind of like chat GPT, advanced voice mode, you know, which, if you are blind and you have not tried advanced voice mode, I encourage you to rush out today, if you can, and try it, because I think it's life changing. And I think those kinds of things will be life changing. I also think where representation is concerned specifically, and lived experience of people with a disability specifically, we have room for improvement in that once we can collect data from   34:42 people remotely using technology. I mean, I don't know how, but imagine a phone, imagine an apple headset. Imagine if you could, if they could watch Dr Adams work for an hour and specifically tailor solutions to Dr Adams needs. I think that is happening in the future. How far away I can't.   35:00 It 345, years, possibly, maybe sooner. You know, I just think it's a very interesting time. I think it is the greatest time to be alive, and I think it is the most profound time for people with disabilities to have hope in always. You know, from neuro link, which recently released a brain interface that allows a man to use an apple vision Pro to control his environment, you know, I would be incredibly excited about that. If I were one with paralysis, you know, to the breakthroughs of blind and retinal medical technologies that are happening currently, and the promise of that possible technology, then blind people may one day be able to see, you know, and that's not BS, I think is pretty amazing. Personally.   35:45 Another   35:47 aspect of CSUN I commented on as an avid Braille reader was the   35:53 appearance of numerous multi line braille displays. So I have a   36:01 80 character braille display attached to my laptop, the same one I've used since 2016   36:07 I have a 32 character   36:11 Braille tablet note taker,   36:15 basically the same technology I saw when I had my first bursa Braille from tele sensory incorporated in the early 90s, where the data was stored on a cassette tape. The braille display is essentially unchanged. So it's eight there's eight dot Braille cells, and there are mechanical pins that are driven up and down mechanically. And they they fail, they get dirty, they stop working.   36:42 So these multi line braille displays,   36:45 there were four companies there.   36:50 The premise is, you could be more efficient and effective if you could read a 32 character Braille display. I'm looking at one on my lap right now. 12345677,   37:01 words on the line. So the, you know, the Prem, and then I have to toggle to the next line. So the premise would be, could be more efficient and effective, especially with   37:12 computer Braille and mathematical Braille, long equations that that would occupy more lines. And then the other exciting piece is graphics, you know, as a blind kid trying to learn what, what's a parabola? Yeah, yeah.   37:32 And then, you know, there was one cool one where they,   37:36 there was a Braille tablet with 100 characters, and they put up a, you know, illustration of a bicycle, which was cool. I mean, I could tell two wheels, handlebars, it was fun, but they're expensive, right? They're incredibly expensive,   37:54 6000 to Yes, 20 plus $1,000   37:59 so my contention was we need another tactile   38:05 reading system that doesn't reply on these rely on these mechanical pins. And some people listening may remember the Opticon, which I was shown as a second or third grader in the late 60s. And you put your fingers on a little pad, and there were little pins that vibrated. They didn't raise up and down. They they vibrated. And they actually replicated, replicated print letters. So you would scan a print document, and then you would feel the print and some people, still, I know some people love the OPT, yeah, we have, we have people on the list that recently asked about someone that could fix an Opticon. And we were, yeah, yeah. We were trading back and forth black mark. There's a nice black   38:45 but   38:47 I had invited a gentleman, Rafiki Kai, who's a visiting scholar in AI at University of San Francisco Computer Science Department,   38:56 and I was showing him many of these braille displays and talking about the expense. And I got a text from him yesterday saying he's talked to people in the mechanical engineering department at University of San Francisco who are using AI to solve mechanical engineering problems, and he wants to get on a call to see if they can take on developing a new, refreshable breath technology as a project. So a lot of things come out of CSUN. And   39:24 I digress a little bit, just to say you talked about the seven subjects, but there were other things in the article as well, the discussion of AI,   39:34 the discussion of the Braille displays. And for those who haven't read the article, you can think you can find it and talk to top tech tidbits, but   39:46 I think Aaron, if you have any other thoughts that you think are important to share, also, how can people get in touch with you? And I'll let people know how they can get in touch with me.   40:00 And then we'll open up to see if anyone has any questions. Certainly, I think the easiest way that everyone's used to getting in touch with me is just publisher at top tech tidbits.com I have many, many email addresses. They all work. You can reach me at all of them, but that's usually the one that most people use.   40:16 I just basically wanted to answer as many, I'm sorry, yeah, as many questions as I could today, these this workshop was the culmination of questions that I have been asked for about the last two months, you know, from people. So I hope they get a lot of value out of this. We will have this recording posted tomorrow, along with the Word document, which contains all of the prompts that I did not read to you today and everything else that you need to complete the process yourself, and if you have any questions, I might be able to convince Dr Adams to get back on here with me and answer some questions. Yeah, absolutely happy to do part two.   40:52 And we'll probably need to in about three just just to answer questions. Yeah, you probably will change Yeah.   40:59 And to get in touch with me, it's Kirk Adams at Dr Kirk, adams.com Kirk Adams at Dr Kirk, adams.com or LinkedIn.   41:08 And any questions from those of us who are with us live today, and if you're viewing this as an archive recording, please email Aaron and or I, and we'll be happy to engage in dialog and hearing Hearing none I am going to thank you, Aaron, for a very succinct, well organized description of the process you use, and hoping that it will prove of great value to Those who I think view the webinar and looking forward to our next conversation. Indeed. Dr Adams, thanks for all you do. Absolutely talk to you, my friend. All right, take good care. Bye, everybody. Bye, bye.   41:56 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a [email protected]   42:07 Kirk adams.com   42:09 together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time. Keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact. You.  

Tiffani Martin is an AI & Technology Strategy Leader, Social Tech Entrepreneur, and Accessibility Innovator who specializes in AI governance, responsible innovation, and technology strategy. With extensive expertise in AI ethics, compliance, automation, and digital transformation, she supports executives and organizations in scaling AI initiatives, optimizing operations, and mitigating risks, while ensuring equity and accessibility in technology adoption. As the Founder of VisioTech, Tiffani leads research and development efforts in accessible AI and emerging technology solutions, guiding companies in aligning with regulatory compliance, industry standards, and responsible AI practices. Her exceptional ability to bridge strategy, operations, and AI governance has garnered significant recognition, including: ✔ Black Enterprise's 40 Under 40   ✔ Dallas Business Journal's 40 Under 40   ✔ AI Innovator of the Year (Black AI Think Tank)   ✔ Lex Frieden Entrepreneur of the Year Award (Presented by Governor Greg Abbott) Tiffani serves as an Executive Board Member and Director for Ambassadors for the North Texas Disability Chamber, contributing actively to accessibility and AI policy. Additionally, she collaborates with industry leaders, policymakers, and research institutions to shape frameworks that ensure equitable AI adoption and ethical decision-making within emerging technologies. How Tiffani Drives Impact: AI & Tech Strategy: Aligns AI-driven innovation with business objectives and compliance frameworks. Executive Advisory: Partners with C-suite leaders to advance AI governance, risk mitigation, and responsible AI adoption. Workforce Development: Builds inclusive AI talent pipelines through mentorship and strategic initiatives. Digital Transformation: Leads cross-functional teams in implementing scalable and ethical AI solutions. Operations & Governance: Designs strategic roadmaps, optimizes workflows, and enhances decision-making structures to support AI-driven business transformations. Thought Leadership & Industry Influence: Tiffani's insights on AI governance, accessibility, and business strategy have been featured in national business and academic publications. She frequently delivers keynote addresses at STEM, accessibility, and technology events, shaping critical conversations around responsible innovation, ethical AI, and inclusive technology. Furthermore, Tiffani develops industry frameworks, including the Accessible AI Quotient, which provides structured methodologies for inclusive AI development and ethical deployment. She also actively participates on advisory boards, task forces, and executive panels aimed at advancing responsible AI policies and best practices across various industries. TRANSCRIPT:   00:00 Music.   Speaker 1  00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   Speaker 2  00:37 so welcome everybody to the cleverly named podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, and today I have a guest a new friend, Tiffany Martin, and Tiffany was introduced to me by a mutual friend of ours, Dr froswa Booker DREW Thank you, froswa, for connecting Tiffany and I You're a master connector, and we appreciate you. And Tiffany is also a blind person like myself. For those of you who don't know me, again, it's Dr Kirk Adams. I am managing director of innovative impact LLC, which is my consulting practice. I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind. Prior to that, the same roles at the lighthouse for the blind Inc, here in Seattle, I have devoted my professional and academic careers to creating opportunities for other people with disabilities, particularly blind people, to thrive in our society. And my main focus has been employment. I think a good, meaningful, well paying career addresses lots of issues. So I've spent my time focusing on helping create conditions in which blind people can   01:55 be meaningfully employed.   Speaker 2  01:57 And I was introduced to Tiffany and we share many of the same interests and values. So Tiffany, if you would like to introduce yourself to the vast podcast audience, or   Speaker 3  02:14 as Dr Kirk mentioned, I am blind. I became blind at the age of 28 so I was sighted, I ended up getting diabetic retinopathy, and so I had to make a complete life change. But before then,   02:30 I lived a very   Speaker 3  02:33 active lifestyle, traveling started. My background is in digital marketing, and so I was doing that for a global humanitarian service named United mega here. And then I went and took all, you know, my gifts, over into a ministry. And then then I went blind in the midst of that, and I realized I could do way more with technology than I felt that I could with marketing. It was a it was a gap filler for me, and their revelation came right when I lost my sight at the same time I had kidney failure, and so I was on dialysis and in and out of hospitals, but trying to maintain a nine to five as well as a five to nine the entire time. And so three transplants later, I sit before you now. I'm about to graduate from Baylor University with my MBA, with a concentration in cyber security. I went to the blind institute of technology so I can learn Web and Digital Accessibility. Became a certified product owner, Certified Scrum Master, because I wanted to understand the process in developing technology and how to facilitate that. And like I mentioned, I'll be graduating in May, and I have really high hopes in pursuing my PhD and focusing more on AI governance as well as accessibility within the corporate space. So just a lot of pivots in my life. And this one coming up, I'm looking to really step foot into academia. And that's really, truly how I came across Dr Fauci. And she said, You, I have a wonderful, absolutely amazing person that you need to meet, and that was that was you. Dr Kirk, so I'm so glad that she did that. I've learned so much in the time that we talked and shared. And so just glad to be here.   Speaker 2  04:52 And I want to ask you about one of your pivots. So as I mentioned in the intro, you know, my retina is detached when I was five years old. So I became totally blind before first grade. And so most, most of us who are blind aren't totally blind, only about 10% of us in the other people are legally blind and have various degrees of usable vision. So sometimes there's a question, especially for young kids, like, does this this kid really need to learn braille. Can they use other modes technology? Can they listen to stuff with me? There was no question I was totally blind. I needed to learn to write Braille. There was no question. I needed to learn how to travel independently with a cane, white cane I had in my hand as first grader, and, you know, at that time, learned how to type on a typewriter. So I learned how to type it as a six year old, so that when I was ready, I could go to public school my neighbors and siblings, which I did starting in fourth grade. But for you, you lived 28 years as a sighted person, and you kind of just said, became blind at 28 and had to learn a lot of stuff. So I think I'd like to dig into that a little bit. So many people go through a grief cycle. Many people are just shell shocked by becoming blind after living us with our formative years of the sighted person and you are an example and a role model of someone who assessed the situation and took action. And I would really like to hear, what did you you mentioned blindness to do technology, but how did you start? What did you do? First, what did you do? Second, in order to move to the place where you are now, whereas a blind person. You're about to graduate with your MBA from Baylor and planning to launch into a doctoral program. How did you get from sighted person, newly blind person, to really efficient, effective, thriving blind person?   Speaker 3  06:59 You know, a lot a lot of people ask me, you know, when I'm speaking or just in passing, you know, what happened? You know, how did you manage? What was it like? And I really, I don't even think to this day, I've actually truly processed it was okay. This is something that has happened to me, and I gotta adjust. And, you know, I have a wonderful, great supportive system with my parents, but I had to, you know, move back home, you know, selling my car, getting rid of, you know, my my place downtown. It was really, really something that, when you get into the thick of it, is one of those, you know, fright, like, you know, all of those, and not just my instincts kicked into, Okay, I gotta, I gotta figure something out. You know, my parents were adamant about my autonomy, and so my dad received information through a program out here at Texas Workforce Solutions. And the first time I could, you know, get an appointment, I was there, and it was my first interaction with somebody independent using technology. My case manager was a woman that was blind and immediate reaction to when I met her, was in awe, because the first thing I heard was her computer, and it's going a mile a minute. And, you know, anybody will tell you if they hear voiceover or, you know, a screen reader is just sounds like gibberish. And so my dad. I remember he got real close. He said, One day, you want to be able to do that. And you know at the time, I'm glad I have no idea with that,   Speaker 2  08:49 when we got onto this call and you run out a much more rapid read than I do, so you've made it   08:55 our screen reading technology really well.   Speaker 3  08:57 Yeah, I'm actually increasing my speed. My mentor, his name is Vincent Martin. He's blind himself. He has seven degrees, two of which are PhDs, and he said he reads 900 words per minute, and that's listening comprehension and retention. So I'm at 500 right now, and I'm trying to make my way up, though, but that's just the competitor in me, but yeah, like, I'm able to do that with technology. So the courses that Texas Workforce offered, they said it takes about a month, but I learned everything in about a week, just two weeks, just, you know, at the precaution, you know, and everything. But as soon as I got my computer back, I had to go. I started on a PC. Then I became a Mac person. When I became blind, I had to go back to a PC, learning jaws. And recently, I just taught myself how to use, you know, MacBook, since I was already, you know, leveraging the iPhone, iPad and so forth. But no. It's just, there's just intrinsic curiosity that that comes with, I believe would happen, you know, with my site, and I've just taken that and really challenged myself to see how far I could go. I don't, I will say this, I don't know if I would have pushed myself as hard if I was not blind, and that's crazy, but I think me pushing the limits of what I can do with the loss of a faculty is kind of just intriguing to me.   10:33 And   Speaker 2  10:36 you're about to finish your master's business administration degree, but you also are a tech founder, so I love to let people hear about your company.   Speaker 3  10:49 Yeah, so Visio Tech, we work on the research and strategy development of accessible technology focused on on artificial intelligence. I made the pivot a couple years back where I just wanted to focus on accessible technology, but I really from the advice of a business partner, which he he does a lot in generative AI, but I said, Hey, I think we need to go ahead and make that pivot, because AI and accessibility just go hand in hand. AI is an assistive tool. I use it for accessibility. A lot of people use it for productivity, but I really felt like this would be the gap filler with people with disabilities. You know, it's, it optimizes, you know, your workflow and creativity and things of that nature. And if we can get our hands on it, that's the, it's that access point that I'm concerned with. And so, you know, that's what we do now, like I said before, I'm taking it so much serious that, you know, I want to get that PhD. So I have a very deep understanding of not just the capabilities, but the implications of what it means on society. And so I just, I want to be well versed. I want to be on the operating, you know, operator side as well as the consumer. I want to understand that. And so I can, you know, help bridge the gap for other people as well. So, so   Speaker 2  12:23 you just said something in a I've heard you talk about your company more than once, but you just said something, maybe in a new way, maybe I'm finally listening, but use of AI for accessibility. So your your company is focused specifically on harnessing AI to improve the lives of people with disabilities. So am I hearing that right?   Speaker 3  12:49 Yeah, that's, that's where we are right now. It's been a lot of like research, you know, I've had to bootstrap the entire time, and more so now you know thing ever, but we really took a step back. Brought on, you know, new team members   13:08 really looking into,   Speaker 3  13:12 you know, how fast is advancing? I'm particularly interested in agents, just for autonomous reason, and that's just kind of like a personal goal for me with being blind, is I'm very concerned with autonomy, and to be able to leverage a tool that could, you know, operate on its own. I'm doing one thing while it's doing another, that just duplicates me several times over. And so I'm like, Okay, this could help me. I know it can help others. And so, you know, I've kind of been on this evangelist movement of trying to eradicate the fears associated with AI, particularly with with people in marginalized communities. But, you know, like everybody, we have to take, you know, baby steps. So that's kind of where we are.   Speaker 2  14:05 Yeah, I have two, two things come to mind. First is there, there are people listening right now who are jumping up out of their chair saying she is doing something that is so important and meaningful to me. I need to, I need to engage. I need to experience this, I need to get involved. So how can those listening want to learn more about Visio tech? How do they do that? I   Speaker 3  14:29 mean, I'm always on my phone, even I have the meta glasses on right now. So I'm hearing everything you know going on, not right now, of course, but I'm very active on LinkedIn. I found my people and LinkedIn, you know, other techies with disabilities and so forth. So, you know, you can contact me there with an eye, by the way, Tiffany with an eye. Yes, you know, my mom's had to be different for whatever reason. I. Yeah,   Speaker 2  15:00 it's got style. Well, it's T, I F, F, A, N, I   Speaker 3  15:04 m a, yeah, but either that or via email, Tiffany with an i at Visio tech, V, i, s, i, o, T, E, C, H, dot, C, O,   Speaker 2  15:17 okay, Tiffany with an i at Visio tech.co   Speaker 3  15:21 right? And the funny thing, oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, you know the funny thing about the website, so just kind of going back, I've been very, you know, obsessed with no code, low code. But with the new models that have been coming out, I've been playing around with programming because that was something that I was starting to learn right before I lost my site. So there's, you know, there's times where I'm testing it out on the site to, you know, see if it works. Just to see, you know, like, as somebody that had, you know, little to no understanding of programming that was, you know, trying to start life happen, and coming back. And I'm like, this tool, you know, there's so many tools out there, Claude winds, serve cursor, GitHub copilot, you know, I'm like, Wow. You know, people who have no experience in coding can now, you know, learn how to do that. So, you know, you might see little things on the side, and it's me just like, you know, working through it. So,   Speaker 2  16:25 yeah, and then the you said marginalized populations. So you are an African American woman who was blind, and I just saw a stat recently. It was focused on Silicon Valley, but it's probably a pretty good snapshot of tech. 70% of the employees are non disabled white males. So you are living with several identities related to marginalized populations, and as you look at the institutional barriers that exist around in our country, race, sex and evilism, any reflections, any any thoughts, any dynamics that you find uniquely challenging or uniquely satisfying and occupying these overlapping identities?   Speaker 3  17:20 Yeah, it's a very peculiar town that we're in.   17:25 It seems like every time I'm,   Speaker 3  17:28 you know, opening up my phone, there's an update, there's something that is at risk of being removed, that specifically impacts my life. You know, we're talking about education. We're talking about like, section 504, and accommodations and workplace, and it's just, it can be very overwhelming right now. And I'm not going to sit here and say I'm an optimistic at all, but I do see similar to what happened when I lost my sight, when there are challenges that we face and barriers, it is an opportunity to set the world on its head and really come together, but use our voice and amplify our voice with allies and so forth to make it known. Of the possibilities, you know, that comes with the accommodations that come with the technology that comes with, you know, just the the assistance. I will say this and I stand firm. I've said it on, you know, other interviews and podcasts, di is not a license for mediocrity. It is just an opportunity for people in marginalized groups to be afforded opportunities that their counterparts had. It has opened the door for a lot of incredible, great minds. And one thing I will say about people with disabilities, we have an intrinsic ingenuity about us, an adaptability that I think is second to none, that I think all businesses could benefit from. And so I'm a living witness of that Baylor, they removed, they waived the GRE, which I think is a barrier in education, but that's, that's a whole different podcast, but by them doing that, they gave me the opportunity. It's an r1 university, and I am on par to graduate the top 25% of my class now,   19:44 sorry, is that fabulous?   Speaker 3  19:46 Yeah? Like, thank you. That I don't know if anybody will be able to witness that or in experience that if they did not give me the opportunity, if accommodations weren't set in place, but because it is. And I can now see the possibilities. I am now able to contribute, not only to that university, but other people, other organizations I contact because of what I am learning there. So you know, if I'm, if I'm a walking billboard for why accommodations matter at this time, at this specific time with the political climate, I'll be that for however long that takes.   Speaker 2  20:20 Well, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this meritocracy concept that's being mentioned a lot, and I think if you take us, everyone takes a few steps back. I think we would all it'd be hard to disagree with the thought that we want people to be able to contribute as fully as possible to our society and bring their talents and their skills and their strengths into the mix. And there are barriers that have prevented really talented, motivated people with unique strengths, people with disabilities, from fully engaging in the workplace. So you can call it what you want. Most recent label has been diversity, equity, inclusion, but it's really about talent management, human resources, finding the best fit for the talent skills and strengths of people that contribute to organizations and society. So we may be calling it something different in a year, but I think from a strategic business competitive standpoint, I think anyone who wants to have an effective business that adds value, provides value for their customers, is going to realize that they need to hire the best and brightest people they can, and if they're using stereotypes and discrimination as a shorthand to eliminate people from their talent pool, that's not a wise business decision. We   21:57 both agree with that.   Speaker 2  21:59 So PhD next for you, when I talked about that, I had earned my doctorate in leadership and change and first of all, Dr frost wall and I started at the same time, and she finished long before I did, but I did become Dr Adams in 2019, it's been very, very meaningful for me and you. And I talked about that. I'd love to hear your vision for the future of yourself. Tech, I know you mentioned that you're, you're seeking the PhD so that you can have the deepest grounding and understanding of AI and accessibility and those intersections that you can but what, how does that? How does that look say seven years from now, and it's dr, dr, Tiffany Martin and Visio Tech is a scaled, active company. What? What changes do you see happening in the world because of   22:57 what seven years from now   Speaker 3  23:01 I see myself definitely   23:07 in between research and teaching.   23:10 It's a passion I never knew that I had   Speaker 3  23:13 until I started speaking, but I'm very, very passionate about passing on that knowledge and and cultivating people and and ideas that long outlive me. I see myself doing a lot of advocacy work on the hill. And so, you know, I want to be fully prepared, you know, adding knowledge with passion to be the best advocate I can for all of the communities I represent. But it's is something that, you know, hopefully down the road, if kids come into play, you know, with my husband and I, that they could see and they have no idea of what a barrier is, because I was able to set that precedent for them. But   24:07 I just see myself pouring out to to people,   Speaker 3  24:12 you know, I just, I want to use the next seven years to not just learn, but to really get aligned with other organizations and where, you know, the research that I conduct can be utilized. I don't see it as a singular effort, just for Visio tech, but you know, anytime I could partner, or, you know, get involved and get into organizations and they can leverage life experiences that I have, as well as the knowledge and so forth, and I can help, you know, their teams, and help create better services and products and systems that serve all people. That's kind of where I'm at. So you know, it's a lot of. Movement. This is a pivot that   25:05 I am trying to prepare my best for.   Speaker 3  25:09 But yeah, going from marketing to tech and then going into academia. Yeah, I'm excited, quite nervous. I'm a control freak, and this is one of those things. I'm going by faith. But yeah, I believe I'm ready, and I'm just gonna, you know, keep my head down and start making some waves and hopefully change some things and be that catalyst. So, yeah,   Speaker 2  25:37 I don't want people to think that tiff needs all work and no play, as I did the presentation you made, and you made a Bob's Burgers analogy in reference. And I said, I love Bob's burger. So we had a little back and forth about that. But so in between starting a company, finishing your MBA, preparing for the PhD, networking, engaging, advocating, speaking, What? What? What do you do for fun?   Speaker 3  26:09 I'm a self proclaimed foodie. I'm always like researching places and dragging my husband along, like, hey, let's try this. We are active, so one of the things I'm very proud that I got to do is I got to snowboard. Coming up. We're going on a cruise with the family, but I'm gonna see if they let me jet ski. I used to do it when I had my site, and I'm like, it's just open ocean. Like, why not? But   Speaker 2  26:45 that's great. You and your husband come to Seattle. It's really nice here in August and September, and we'll go eat at a lot of good places.   Speaker 3  26:55 There's actually a conference, and I cannot think of it in Seattle that I I want to go to and I think it's in June. I had a friend send it to me, but I definitely thought of you when it came across. I'm really see if I can make that happen.   Speaker 2  27:12 Let us know to eat to some places that aren't on the tour sky. So this is this time has flown by. I again. This is Dr Kirk Adams. If you want to get in touch with me, I'm on LinkedIn to Kirk Adams PhD. My website is Dr Kirk adams.com D, R k, i, r k, E, D, A M, s.com My email address is Kirk Adams at Dr Kirk Adams com, and Tiffany for you to tell people one more time how they could get in touch with you and anyone listening to this podcast, I will speak for Tiffany to say we will happily talk to anyone who's interested and accelerating inclusion of people with disabilities in our society. Feel free to reach out.   Speaker 3  27:57 Yeah, so they can reach me on LinkedIn, Tiffany with an I actually put blind on there so you can't miss me. But yeah, LinkedIn is a great spot. If you want to see pictures of myself and my husband and my family. You know, just having fun, it's not all work. You can catch me on Instagram at Tiffany Jansen, that's t, I, F, F, A n, i, j, A n, C, y, n, and then you can also email me at Tiffany with an i again at Visio tech.co, that's V, i, s, i, o, T, E, C, H, dot, C, O,   Speaker 2  28:38 well, I want To express my gratitude to you, Tiffany, for your time and attention and being present with us here, and your friendship, your advocacy, your allyship, your engagement again. Dr, dr frost Bucha DREW Thank you for introducing me to Tiffany Martin. Everyone have a great day. Thanks. Stephanie,   29:02 thank you.   Speaker 1  29:05 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot DRK adams.com, together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact. You.

In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, Dr. Kirk Adams speaks with Robyn Grable, Founder and CEO of Talents ASCEND (https://talentsascend.com/).   00:00 Music.   Speaker 1  00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   Speaker 2  00:37 hello, everybody. This is Dr Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. Welcome to my monthly live streamed webinar. Supercharge your bottom line through disability inclusion and today, we have a marvelous guest who is out there doing great work. Robin Grable is here with us. If you want to say, Hi Robin. We'll get back to you in depth.   Speaker 3  01:02 Hello everyone. Thank you. Dr Adams, appreciate you being here. Appreciate me being here. Yeah, and   Speaker 2  01:06 you and your company is talents ascend. Talents ascend, which is a beautiful name, and mine is innovative impact LLC, so we've got talents ascending. We've got impact innovating at all kinds of good stuff happening here today, but we're going to talk about how employers can access unique, highly motivated, highly talented pools of potential employees, and that's something I focus on. For those of you who don't know me, I am a totally blind person. My retina is detached. When I was in kindergart, I went from being a sighted child to a blind child, really, overnight. And my parents were in their mid 20s at the time. They had never met a blind person in their lives before I became one, and no, they were told Kirk can't come back to school here at the neighborhood school. He needs to go to the State School for the Blind kids. And wound up going to the Oregon State School for the Blind for first, second and third grade, and had a marvelous launching pad. There some things that happened as a 678, year old I've only come to appreciate much later, and I can distinctly say that I was given three gifts during my my time. There one was my blindness skills as a totally blind kid, there was no question that I need to learn braille, that I need to learn how to use a cane, and only about 10% of us who are legally blind are totally blind. So a lot of kids, there's some question, can they use magnification nowadays? You know, could they just listen to everything? But I needed to learn braille, and I did. I use it every day, and I learned how to travel confidently with a white cane, and I learned how to type on a typewriter so I could start into public school and type my spelling test and type my papers and my tests and things. So I got those blindness skills, which we all, all of us who have an impairment of some kind, whether it's hearing, vision, mobility, cognitive, need to learn alternative techniques that other people don't necessarily need to know, but we do, and those skills are so important.   03:34 The second thing,   Speaker 2  03:36 the second thing I was given was a strong internal locus of control, which just meant I felt in my bones that I could solve my problems, forge my own path, create, create a way forward. And they really did that through experiences. This was the 1960s I would I would say the school was run by some really cool hippies, and they took us backpacking in the Three Sisters wilderness area and horseback camping up on Mount Hood to build big snow forts, huge snowballs and in the tide pools and the Oregon coast, feeling around for starfish and sea anemones, I remember being at a cabin up at a mountain lake using a cross cut saw to cut firewood and just all kinds of experiential things that just gave me that strong internal locus of control or agency, as opposed to A strong external locus, which just gives you this feeling that things are happening to you, there's not what you can do about it. So I had the blindness skills, I had the strong internal locus of control,   04:53 and then I also had   04:57 Jeremy's note takers talking. I.   Speaker 2  05:00 Um, I also had high expectations so my parents, my dad was a high school basketball coach. My parents didn't want to see anything less than an A on a report card. They expected me to do chores like my brother and sister, and a lot of kids with impairments don't have that because people like my parents weren't familiar with people with disabilities. Schools aren't used to working with people with disabilities, so oftentimes kids have to deal with low expectations from their family, their school, a lot of caretaking, a lot of kind of paternalism. So sometimes that stuff gets internalized. So again, I was given the blindness skills, the sense of agency and the high expectation, which, which really enabled me when I started into public school as a fourth grader in the sink, sink or swim Public School of small town Pacific Northwest noise like I was equipped, equipped to deal with that fast forwarding I went on through school that very well, academically, participated in varsity sports, was involved in other extracurricular activities, was the sports editor of my little high school paper, which meant I got to write a monthly, no weekly high school sports column for the Snohomish Tribune, our little town paper. So I had a had a job as a 16 year old, which many, many young people with disabilities don't, don't get that experience. So so I had a lot of nice things given to me through the course of my life. Earned a scholarship, full scholarship to Whitman College through a foundation called the Jesse Ridley Foundation, which provided full scholarships to blind students going to a small select number of schools, and a recruiter from Whitman College, when he visited the high school, saw me with my white cane and my braille, and said, Can you stay after the presentation? Because we have access to this foundation, and we've never been able to use it, because we've never had a blind student at our college before. Would you like to apply? So I did that. So again, I was given a gift through no real effort of mine, I had to maintain a three to five GPA, and at the end of every semester, I wrote a letter to the foundation and told them what I had learned, sent to my transcript, told them about my classes, then told them what I was planning to learn the following semester, and then they and told them how much tuition and room and board was, and they sent me a check. So I was an 18 year old to get a $24,000 check in the mail was pretty exciting, and I went to go to the bank and deposit it get $100 bill.   08:02 That was big doings for me.   Speaker 2  08:05 The other thing that happened, and this, this is something I think Robin and I will really want to talk about, is the special skills and capabilities you developed, develop as a person living with a disability, or person who's had the experience of being a military veteran. You know, looking at the book The Talent Code, we learn skills and we develop capabilities and characteristics and strengths through overcoming challenges. And you know, world class musicians and athletes and chess champions. You know, they do that systematically. There's a program start right? I studied piano for eight years. So you start with scales and forwards, coordinating your left hand and right hand, and you play increasingly complex pieces. And so you set your set challenges intentionally. Some people call it scaffolding, but that's how you achieve mastery as a person living with a disability every day you it's not that, it's not that regimented or calculated or thought out, but you are faced with challenges daily and as you grow and attempt to thrive in more and more complex settings. Going through school, employment, housing, relationships, you're faced with increasingly difficult challenges, and you overcome them. So I had some experiences I look back on as a 18 year old, as a freshman in college, that my classmates weren't having I couldn't get all my materials in Braille like I did in K 12. So I was getting some books on cassette recorded by a volunteer group Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic, which is now a Learning Ally, some textbooks. I got some I did. And I had some money from the Washington State Commission for the Blind to hire readers so I could pay my classmates minimum wage to read me textbooks that they needed to read anyway. So I was interviewing people, hiring, sometimes, firing, invoicing, paying. So I was managing accounts payable and accounts receivable and hiring and documenting and reporting to the state and all those things. And my my classmates weren't needing to do those things. There was a concept called the expanded core curriculum that was developed by my former place of employment, the American Foundation for the Blind, some years ago. And this is, this is news that blind students get to receive at some point, and they're told, hey, hey, blind kid, you need to learn all the stuff the sighted kids learn, and nine more things like the use of assistive technology, Braille, how to travel safely using a cane or a guide dog. Career Exploration, because we know blind kids graduate from high school have a far less comprehensive view of the world of work than their sighted classmates do, and advocacy. So how to advocate for yourself as a skill we need to teach our disabled kids my my story that I often repeat is my senior year in high school, there were about 30 of us who were college bound. And first period, we all went into physics. Second period, we all walked into math analysis, and third period we all walked into chemistry, and the chemistry teacher said, Oh, no, you cannot take chemistry. That is a safety issue. You need to go to the office and get a get a different class. And I, I was upset, and I went home and talk to my parents, who are both teachers, and they said, Well, if Mr. So and So says, then that's that's that. So they didn't have the information. The school didn't have the information. So I was not given the information that I certainly could have taken chemistry and been very successful. I now know blind PhDs in chemistry. I know blind people who teach chemistry at the university level. So I did not have the self advocacy skills. I was not taught them. I also did not have a network. I did not know any blind adults who were successfully navigating the world that I can turn to for advice and help. So to to all people involved with young blind people, let's take advantage of the great tools we have today with technology, connect with community and find blind adults who are doing great things in the world, and then build that that network for our young, blind and disabled people.   13:05 So,   Speaker 2  13:08 as I mentioned, I was the president, CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind till about two and a half years ago, which was Helen Keller's organization. Very moving moment for me, being in the New York offices and walking down the hallway and sitting at Helen Keller's desk and playing with her typewriter where she wrote all of her books and speeches, and just feeling that power. And prior to that, I held the same role at the lighthouse for the blind Inc here in Seattle, Washington, which is a social enterprise employing blind and deaf, blind people in a number of businesses, including aerospace manufacturing, and been a supplier to the Boeing company since the 1950s 110 120 blind and deaf, blind machinists. I'm doing advanced manufacturing, and I was chatting with Robin before we before we started our session. She's in South Carolina. And just prior to my transitioning from the lighthouse to AFB, I was involved in the lighthouse purchasing a manufacturing facility in Somerville, South Carolina, where Currently there are about 30 blind people, 30 blind South Carolinians, employed as part of the Boeing 787, supply chain there. So I I've had a lot of really interesting experiences and employing people who are blind and deaf, blind, being a blind employee myself. I spent 10 years in corporate America and banking and finance, I've been a frustrated, disabled job seeker, having the experience so many of us have with in my case, getting graduated from college with cum laude, phi, beta, kappa, and sending out my cover letter and my resume and getting. Phone interview and being excited and going in for my in person interview, and walking in with my long white cane, my slate and stylus and some braille paper so I could take notes, and that employer sitting across the table, not surprisingly, had probably never worked with a blind person before, had no idea of the tools and techniques and technology we use, and could not imagine how, how could this blind kid do this financial analyst job he's applying for? So I had, I had that experience multiple, multiple times, and then I started disclosing my disability earlier in the process. If you have a visible disability, there's a point at which you need to decide when to disclose your disability. So I wasn't disclosing until I walked into the in person interview. So I changed my strategy and was putting in my cover letter. I've been totally blind since age five. Here's how I've done all this stuff that's on my resume. Here's how I'll do the job. And then then I wasn't even getting the phone interview, so I certainly, over the years, have talked to many, many, many blind people and people with other significant disabilities who've had similar experiences. Sent out 10 times as many resumes gone, 10 times as many interviews as their brothers and sisters and neighbors without impairments. And that is why only 35% of us with significant disabilities are in the work workforce, as compared to 70% of the general population. We're also in a much narrower band of types of occupations. We're largely confined toward the bottom of the org chart. The majority of us work for nonprofits or government, which are wonderful places to work, but have limited salary ceilings, so we have lower incomes, less wealth, more poverty, and all of the outcome disparities that come with poverty, around depression, substance abuse and dropout rates, marriage dissolutions and all those things. So that's what I dedicate my time to, and my my professional and academic career. I have a PhD in leadership and change. It's called journeys. I did a dissertation called journeys through rough country where I interviewed 11 blind adults who self identified as successfully employed at large American corporations, and learned a lot about their journeys and what their success factors were. And I talked about some of them already, the blindness skills, the internal locus of control. Other things included family support, the opportunity to work as part of a team or a group as a young person, supportive and immediate supervisor, a commitment from top management to accessibility, and although all of them self identified as successfully employed, they all also expressed disappointment, disappointment that they were perhaps the only person with a visible disability who'd reached their level in their organization, disappointment that people who were hired after them, who had less experience and less skill were promoted beyond them, disappointment that there weren't people in the C suite or at the board level with disabilities, disappointment that they had to continually fight for accessibility, that their employers would often make changes to systems that they needed to use for their work without taking into account accessibility. So walking in on a Monday morning and finding out you couldn't do your job because the new system was not accessible. So it was a very enlightening experience for me. I I have come to believe that a good, meaningful, engaging career with fair compensation solves a lot of issues. People with disabilities in our in our country, it's also a matter of self identification of the dignity of work and the respect and the feeling of self worth that comes to be being a contributing person in society. So I did start a consulting practice, innovative impact LLC. I work with companies to help them win the battle for talent by accessing underutilized, overlooked pools of highly motivated, talented people with lots of strengths, people with disabilities. And as I began that journey, I had reached out to a gentleman named Ed Hinkler, whom I respect greatly. And. Told him I was transitioning into this consulting role, and he said, Well, you need to meet Robin raybel. So Robin and I got on a call several years ago now, and she had been devoting her time, energy, effort and talent to creating opportunities, particularly for our veterans, and had broadened her scope to include people with disabilities. We've been in close contact ever since. I applaud her for what she is doing. I want to support her efforts at talents ascend in any way I can, and I would love to turn hand the talking stick to Robin for a while, and Robin would just love to hear your journey, what brought you to the point of creating talents and what motivated you. How do you define your purpose and what what is the scope of what you're doing now, and where do you hope to take it so if we could go, where have you been? Where are you now, and where you're going? That would be a wonderful thing to hear from you.   Speaker 3  21:09 All right. Well, thank you so much, Dr Adams for having me on and talking about that. This is a topic I love to talk about. As you know, it's very near and dear to my heart for several reasons. I am a service disabled veteran, so I have a couple of things more invisible disabilities, so I don't have to necessarily disclose them in the work situation. But I am legally blind in my left eye from histoplasmosis, a condition that I got suddenly when I turned 40, all of a sudden, I couldn't see out of my left eye. And it came to be that I had histoplasmosis. So it was very strange to go from having 2020 vision to all of a sudden not being able to see out of one of my eyes, which caused problems for my right eye because it had to work harder. It had to work twice as hard to help me see, you know, perfectly. So my journey started nine years in the Navy, and at a time when women, you know, were questioned as to why they served in the military. It was 1979 when I went in the Navy, and, you know, it was a tough time, because they people didn't want women in the military. So you couldn't ask for help. You couldn't ask for, you know, assistance on anything. You really had to be strong. And when I got out of the Navy, I was told my skills didn't translate, so I really had to start over and face those barriers of you know, do I tell people I'm a veteran? Because they want to question, well, what did you do in the military? Very similar as you were talking Dr Adams about your journey, and I'm just so first of all, let me step back here and say, what a blessing that and a journey that you've been on because at in the 60s, having going, gone through what you did with your parents and how they supported you and all the things, it's just amazing. I love, love to hear that I've not heard your complete story before, so that just amazing. But as you were talking about the barriers that you know the disability community faces, it's the same, unfortunately for all underserved talent, veterans face these barriers of trying to figure out how they navigate a brand new world of civilian life after they've served in the military, how do they take their skills? How do they get people that don't know anything about the military to accept their skills and what they can do, versus judging them for what they don't understand about their skills or what they don't understand about their experience. Very similar to, you know, someone not understanding how a totally blind person could do a job, it's like, well, you have to give them the opportunities. So I got out of the Navy, my skills didn't translate. I spent about 12 years in 10 different jobs, four different states, just floundering about   Speaker 2  24:10 that. Yeah, a little bit. So the skills don't translate. So I have had the privilege of working fairly closely with the military in some aspects. When I was the CEO the Lighthouse for the Blind, we operated base supply centers at Joint Base Lewis McChord, here in Washington state, for Irwin China Lake and Point Loma Fallon, Nevada. So spent some time on on military bases. We also produce some issue items, the on the move hydration, which was a co brand with Camelback, the entrenchment tool, the canteen cup, other other issue items, and that was under a program called AbilityOne. And whose largest customers, Department of Defense, we did contract management for the Navy and Defense Contract Management Agency. So I know I seen the capabilities, the quiet, competent skills that people in the military possess. So so how? How is it that the private sector employer has challenges conceptualizing how those skills can translate?   Speaker 3  25:37 It really comes down to Great question. Dr Adams. It comes down to perceptions of titles, and it's one of the reasons we don't use a resume at talents ascend. We don't use an application process. Because if you put down a title that you're in infantry for 30 years in the Army, and somebody sees infantry and they say, I don't need a security guard in my company, I don't know what else to do with you. Instead of looking at the skills that that person earned in their time in the military overall, not just that title, they just judge people on their titles, and they they miss out on all the underlying skills   26:14 leadership and project management. Yes,   Speaker 3  26:17 absolutely. I mean, if you look at we use infantry as a as an example all the time, because it's one of the most misunderstood. If you look at the actual job responsibilities of somebody in the infantry, there are things like supply chain, logistics, human resources, leadership, teamwork, equipment, maintenance. There's so many other things that somebody who has a core title of infantry as their specialty. They earn throughout their career in the military. My title was data processing technician, but I did things from payroll to programming to analysis on submarine tracking. I mean, I did all kinds of things in the Navy, but when I got out, I just couldn't. I didn't know how to as well translate that. I mean, I went into the Navy right out of high school. I just did, I was doing my job. It was, you know, I had all these skills, but I didn't know how to really speak to the language that somebody who had no knowledge of the military. And to your point about the disability community, if you don't, if you've never met a totally blind person before, if you've never worked with a totally blind person, or anybody who has any sort of visible disabilities, you don't know what you don't know, right? And it's the same way for the military people just and they're, you know, people shy away from things they don't understand, rather than just being open to how do we figure this out? I've got this great human being in front of me. They have skills. Let's figure out how we can help them work within our organization, and you end up with this wonderful employee who is more productive, stays longer, has more problem solving skills, more resilience, more innovation, all of these great things that the ROI brings from from hiring someone with diverse able, you know, diverse abilities and military skills and all these things. So fast forward, I did finally get a job working for a large corporation, doing the same job I was doing for the Navy when I got out 12 years previously. And it really, I mean, I lost 12 years of time and promotion abilities and and pay and so, you know, fast forward another 13 years, and I was working on my Masters, and had really had nothing to do with the military up to that point, I'd kind of had a just lost the vision of it, and unfortunately. And so then I met an army veteran's wife, and she said her husband had been out for six months, could not get an interview. And it really it was my God given gift to be down this path, because I truly believe I was born to do this. It hit me really hard that that was still happening, and so at the time veterans ascend was born, and the whole concept was to be able to help somebody take their experience and be able to turn that into skills, communicate what those skills are worth and the value of those skills, and how you tell someone that as You're doing interviews or you're applying for jobs, you're networking, etc, and then help businesses understand the skills that somebody in the military brings. We quickly added military spouses in 2019, in 2020, we created ability ascend at the time, which was for our disability community, and it was all the same, same barriers, the same conversations, just a different community of which veterans fit into. I'm a service disabled veteran, so I, you know, I fit into that category as well. And then we opened it up in 2022 to everybody, while still focusing on promoting. Working and advocating for military veterans, military spouses, diversity, abled and justice impacted. But it's, it's, you know, it's a simple concept. And I think where people go wrong in missing out on this talent these talent pools, is they just don't want to take the time to think outside of the box and say, How do I understand this human being better? How do I understand and help get their skills into our organization? Because there is such an ROI in doing it, but we just don't. People just don't take the time. So we're on a mission. Go ahead.   Speaker 2  30:36 I'm curious. So you you talk to wife of a veteran, spouse of a veteran, and they related that their husband been out six months and couldn't get an interview, so that that sounded like the spark. But then, how did you actualize that? Did you just start making phone calls? And yeah, what did you What did you do? It's been   Speaker 3  30:58 a journey. It's pretty journey. Dr Adams, so I knew that. I knew the problems because I'd been in HR, the corporate company I worked for was a, you know, an HR related company, and I'd been in HR for a while working with all types of businesses. And then I started getting back into so I switched my major for my masters into I was in psychology, but really leadership coaching veterans and how if they had someone that could bridge that gap for them, how much more successful could their transition from the military be? And so that really said, Okay, this is my journey. This is where I'm going and it took us. It took us four years because I had that idea in 2014 we have to get rid of resumes. We have to get rid of applications. Because that's truly, truly the issue. When somebody looks at a resume, they immediately make judgments, perceptions, right, wrong or indifferent. It happens, and that's the barrier. But even before a human being gets that resume in the big world of corporations, now, they've got automatic or automatic applicant tracking systems that filter people out previous title, education, skills, keywords, right? Yeah. Same thing for the disability community. They're looking for previous title, all those things, so they're not even getting to a human to look at the resume. But if they do, then there's still that bias and that barrier, because I don't understand what to do with you. I don't want to take the time to learn. And if I, if I mess up and hire the wrong person, I'm in trouble. So we decided that that's that's really that was what was going to happen. We were going to build an AI skills matching platform to take somebody's occupations, turn them into skills, take a business owners jobs that they need to fill, turn those into skills, match the two together and have conversations. Really facilitating interviews is that that's really our mission, is to break the barriers for people to get to an interview. Because once you could get to an interview knowing that they're you know, you may be in the military, you may have a disability, you may be just as impacted. They already know that up front, they're valuing the person, because they they see tangibly. You have the skills that I know I need for my business. It breaks the the mindset of I don't I don't know how to figure this out. I don't know how to understand you. We we unders, we give them that information. So it's just, it's so rewarding. I love where we are and where we've come and, gosh, where we're going right now, this year and last year, we decided to focus on small businesses because, for a couple of reasons. One, there are 33 million of them in the US.   33:53 What's what's your definition? Less   33:55 than 200 employees, okay?   Speaker 3  33:59 And that's not the SBAS definition. The SBAS is 500 but we chose 200 primarily because they don't at that level. They may not have an HR expert on staff, or they may not have an HR person that's doing the hiring for them, and so it's left to someone who that's not their core strength. So we want to help those small businesses, but they don't have the time, money or resources that these corporations have, and job boards and applicant tracking systems and staffing agencies, they're all built for large corporations who have the luxury of time, money and resources. So we're focused on small businesses, but the flip side to that is a small business offers someone who's diversity abled, someone who's a military veteran, military spouse, the opportunity to come in and have that sense of purpose, be truly valued for who they are and what they bring to the table. Because every hiring decision in. Small business is critical. And, you know, in a 10,000 employee company, you hire the wrong person. Yeah, maybe it's a little inconvenient, but in a small business, it is. It is life and death. You know, hiring the wrong person. So, yeah, so   Speaker 2  35:16 how does the job analysis happen? So I know in the disability kind of world. There's, you know, concept of job analysis where you know someone who's a vocational rehabilitation professional, sure, in the old days, would actually go in and observe a job and break it down into the actual functions and and sometimes that results in Job carving. You know this, this person with a severe disability could do A, C, G and J, right of this job, and another person could do b, d, e. So you know that job analysis is so important in the disability employment space, and so you mentioned AI breaking down jobs into into the skill components. How do you How does that happen?   Speaker 3  36:09 Yeah, so it's really just basically what the job entails and the skills that the employer is looking for. Now, would we when we have someone   36:18 just analyzing the posting or you interview, right?   Speaker 3  36:21 Yeah, it's really just them saying, giving us the title, and we break that into skills, giving us the parameters, what their criteria that they're looking for. If we have a situation and we we're very much about the relationship with our clients too. We get to know their business so we know and our concierge managers who are talking to candidates. If we know that this is a, you know, a manufacturing space, and there are parameters where safety is an issue, we talk to the candidates because we don't ask what a candidates, they self identify, that they have a disability, but we don't ask what it is doesn't matter to us. We want to get them to an interview. Doesn't matter. But if there are those kind of parameters that we know, we'll let the candidates know about them, and they can decline the opportunity. They can say, No, I'm, you know, I'm not physically able to do that, or I can't make that happen. A lot of times our the disability candidates that we have will want to work remote. So we do a lot of work trying to find them remote positions so they can work from home, or that kind of thing. So we were very much about understanding the clients, the small business, what they do, what they need, and then finding them the right candidate. Our AI really is that first pass, if you will. Of here, you've got the skills you're located where we need you to be. Your salary requirement fits their salary range. Great. That's, that's kind of like the basic stuff. And then our concierge managers talk with every candidate before they send them over. So yeah, we're, we're doing that. We're having those conversations. But yeah, great question.   Speaker 2  38:01 Good. So there was a, there was a research study that I, I cited in my dissertation. The researchers asked lawyers and vocational rehabilitation counselors the same question, and that was, what, what is the greatest barrier to successful employment of people with disabilities, and the vocational counselors all said employer attitudes, yes. And the employers said lack of understanding of our operational needs. Sounds like you are delving into understanding the operational needs at the business level, yeah, because   Speaker 3  38:41 at the end of the day, we want the small business to be successful and we want the candidates to get into careers. We don't just want them to get into a job that you know may give them a paycheck. We truly want them to find a career and a home that they can grow in,   Speaker 2  39:02 as far as what would be appropriate to share in detail, would love to hear some success stories of some of the businesses you've worked with, or some of the people you've placed, to get a bit of a flavor of how impactful this can be, both for a business and an individual.   Speaker 3  39:18 Yeah, and it's there's so many different stories. We've worked with over 200 employers in our time. We stood the business up in 2018 I didn't think, I don't think I finished that part of the story, but yeah, just so many with just really saying this process was so easy, we've had one, you know, one veteran in particular, this process was so much easier than trying to apply for jobs online, and when I got the interview, they understood me. They already knew and valued who I was, so it there wasn't. They didn't have to worry about imposter syndrome, or, you know, thinking, Okay, how do I explain what I did in the military? I don't. Need to explain what I did in the military, or what my title meant in the military. I can just talk about my skills. So there's so many of those kind of stories on the flip side to a business, you know. Again, we could cite all kinds of research on the ROI of hiring veterans, hiring military spouses, hiring disability candidates. There's just so many, you know. And companies will come to us and say, I can't believe how easy this process was, and you found us the perfect, the perfect person for our company, not just in the skills, but in the character fit, and who that company is, and how that that, you know, candidate, fits into their company. So it is very much for us about the relationships and making sure that there are real careers with real candidates for these small businesses. Unlike any other service out there is really just trying to put bodies in seats, which all the time. Yeah,   Speaker 2  41:00 of the 200 businesses you've worked with, are there any patterns as far as type of industry or focus of the business or geographic any anything emerging? Not really.   Speaker 3  41:14 I mean, we, we are here in South Carolina, headquartered in South Carolina. That's where we started, back in 2018 so we have a bigger network here on the East Coast, I would say, if for any geographic. But, you know, heavy military states, of course, Texas, Florida, Georgia, Virginia, you know, those are some of the heavier veteran states. South Carolina's got a great population of veterans, so, but from a type of place, probably, you know, professional services project managers, IT, which you know, are great for the diversity able, because they're just so smart. My grandson is on the autism spectrum, and he is so smart, but he needs things very structured, you know, and he sees things in black and white. It's, there's really no gray area for him, and that's a good thing, and businesses need that. So it's, it's, it's about finding the right fit. We're all different human beings. We don't all like the same things. We don't all have the same skills. So if we can find where our skills and where our culture fit is, we're going to be so much happier. We're going to engage more businesses. Are going to make more money, be more profitable, hire more people, just such economic returns on it. Well,   42:40 let's get down to brass tacks. If   Speaker 2  42:43 a person is a veteran, a person with a disability, person who's justice impacted, and they would like some support and finding great career opportunities, how do those individuals engage with you and how? How do businesses engage with you?   42:58 Yeah, absolutely so. Talents ascend.com,   Speaker 3  43:02 if you're if you're watching, you can see the QR code there in my background. That'll take you right to our website. We've got a section for employers. We've got a section for candidates, and then once you're on the candidate page, if you are a candidate, we also have our nonprofit called the ASCEND collective, and that's where each community can find additional resources to support them. They can reach out to us through our contact us page or our email address on the website. We have a ton of resources all across the country that we've curated over these years, and if we don't have one to in our library, we will find a resource. We will find somebody that they need. So talents ascend.com and talents is plural, and, yeah, just find us there. We're on LinkedIn. We're on Facebook as well. So reach out. We love to help people. That's that's what we do all day.   Speaker 2  43:53 Good. And if I, if I'm a small business owner and I want to win that competition for talent. Find uniquely motivated, talented folks that you're working with now, just how does that work? Yeah,   Speaker 3  44:09 same thing. Reach out to us from the website. You'll see the employer page. There's buttons there to book a time with me, book a quick call just to ask some questions. We're here to help. And again, if we're not the right fit for your business, that you know, we're just not the right solution, which you know we're every No, no, one size fits all kind of thing, we will find another resource for you, but it's it's for us. Reach out talents, ascend.com Find me on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn. Happy to answer any questions about our service. Our service is affordable, access to diverse, high quality talent for small businesses. We're built to work with small businesses. That's our core function, in a cost effective, economical but very effective way. So wonderful. Yeah.   Speaker 2  45:01 And thank you so much, Robin, that 45 minutes   Speaker 3  45:04 flew by. It did thank you. Dr Adams, I always learn   Speaker 2  45:09 a lot I talk with you, and so much, so much resonates with me. Yes, you talked about the automated tools used for resume screening, and it makes me think early work experience. I grew up in small towns in the Northwest, and when kids turn 16, they got driver's licenses and they got jobs. And so many young people with impairments don't have that early work experience. They're getting their foot on the career ladder later in life, only less than 25% of us get any paid work experience before we're 23 years old, and over 70% of the general population gets some sort of paid work experience by that age. So if you're you're sending in a resume for an entry level job, and it's blank, right in the work experience category, and you're competing with people who've had a variety of jobs. Start starting at that, at that in the teen years, you're you're at a disadvantage, unless people can really understand why, right? So really, really valuable information for those of you who'd like to get in touch with me, also LinkedIn, Kirk, Adams PhD, and my website is Dr Kirk adams.com so dr Kirk adams.com would love to talk with anyone, anytime, about creating meaningful, engaging career opportunities for people with disabilities and just a pleasure, Robin, as always, to spend time with you. To Dr Adams, thank you. Please reach out to talents ascend.com and if we have those in the audience, if anyone has a question for either Robin or I   47:02 Jeremy, raised your hand. Do   47:06 I have to do anything? Did? No,   47:07 I got it. Oh, I got it.   Speaker 4  47:10 So, Robin and Kirk, amazing conversation. Seriously, every time I get the opportunity to drop by your live streams, I feel like I'm walking away with so much knowledge. And Robin, you brought some amazing stories to that when we think about because we're seeing a lot of people in the blind community experiencing some challenges with layoffs and so forth right now, especially where I live. I live in DC, and I'm just curious, and if both of you might offer the one or two biggest tips that you would offer someone who is maybe facing that, oh my gosh, I've got to find something as quickly as I possibly can, right, and kind of trying to navigate what may be a different space for them. A lot of my friends right now are happen to work in government, and I don't want to get into the politics piece, right, but Right, like some of them are seriously considering, oh, my God, what do I do next? I don't know if I really want to be here in government, right? And so I just was curious. If you know, looking at this, Dr Kirk with your vantage point of all the work you've done, and Robin, with the work you've done, are there a couple tips that you might offer to someone who is really trying to navigate what may be a very different job search process than what they're used to.   Speaker 2  48:53 Robin, would you like to take a stab at that first? Or would you like me to i   Speaker 3  48:56 It's your show. Dr Adams, you go right ahead. I do have, I do have a couple things I definitely want to add to but I'll let you   Speaker 2  49:04 go first. I Jeremy, think about the book forces for good, which I talk about, probably ad nauseam, but it talks about, in order to make anything transformational happen at a societal level, you need to align the four sectors, the government, the corporate, the nonprofit and the community. And I think that's true at a micro level too. So if I were suddenly thrust into a situation where I needed to find gainful employment as soon as possible, I know that vocational rehabilitation gets a bad rap, but there is a vocational rehabilitation system in our country. Every state has at least one vocational rehabilitation agency. Some have two. They're funded by the Department of Education. Their annual budget is 4 billion with a B dollars. So. So if you do not have an active your person with a disability, and you don't have an active open case with your vocational rehabilitation system, you should do that even if you've had terrible experiences in the past, as many of us had have had, but they are there with our taxpayer dollars to help you and be a squeaky wheel. Open a case and be a squeaky wheel. Next is looking at the corporate sector disability end as an organization. I've spent a lot of time with disability. I in.org they've got 100 and what, 474 80 corporate members that have all made formal commitments to hiring people with disabilities. There's a corporate partner list on their home page. You can see who all those corporate partners are. I would zip through and find some that are have a presence in your community, or that's resonate with you that you'd be interested and excited about. And then I would probably look at LinkedIn and find some people who work there and reach out for informational interviews. I'm a big fan. I've used them throughout my life 99% of the time. If you reach out to someone and say, Hey, I'm really interested in what you're doing. I'd really like to learn from you. And I have half an hour of your time, you're going to get a yes. So I tell young blind people when you're looking at and I did my doctoral research in large corporations. So look for a couple things. Look for visible commitments to accessibility on the home page. Is there an accessibility statement? Look for Employee Resource Groups. Do they have one that's focused on disability? Do they have any statements about the recruiting process and the hiring process being accessible. Do they offer accommodations? So just look, look for those kind of public signs on the nonprofit side. In any community of any size, there will be community based nonprofits that have philanthropic dollars and expertise focused on employment people with disabilities. So I would just you do a little search engine search you're in your community and and find those non profits and reach out to them. So obviously, this takes some work. And then in the community, advocacy organizations for for those of us who are blind, the American Council, the blind National Federation of the Blind, has a national, state, local chapter system. Many other disabilities have similar advocacy organizations, type, type in your disability of choice, advocacy or members or association, and you know, find, find the chapter near you. So I would cover all those bases, the government, the form of VR, the corporations, and the structure of disability, and the local nonprofits, and then the community organizations,   Speaker 3  53:13 yeah, all great stuff. I you know, the only thing I would add is, don't waste your time just blindly applying, and I don't use that, no, no pun there, blindly applying online. Don't, don't waste your time doing that. It is just a total, total waste of time. If you do see a job online that you are interested in, as Dr Adams said, find somebody who works at that company and get that informational and interview, get that connection, network, network, network, because here's what's going to happen. People that know you are going to know the kind of business that deserves you. They're going to know the connections. If they don't, they'll know somebody who does all the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon you can go through, but that will be your better use of time while you're doing that networking. Really figure out who you you know who you are and who you want to be in a career. Because a lot of times in these situations, people have worked and they're forced to listen to the barriers that they've they're facing, and they're forced to say, Okay, what do I really want? It's just like COVID did with us. You know, everybody was in questioning what's life all about now, and so I would say, take the time to really understand what your skills are, so that you don't have to go into an interview justifying what your past title was. You can go in knowing what your value is and what you bring to an organization, no matter what organization you're you're trying to work with, but yeah, just know your skills, know your value. And network, network, network. So   Speaker 2  54:51 I Robin 33 years ago, when I turned 30, I'd been in banking and finance and security. These public finance for 10 years and decided I didn't want to do that the rest of my life. I got what color is your parachute out of the Talking Book in Braille library. I read it. I did every little exercise. What did you like most about first grade and what did you hate most about your worst job? Did all that stuff, and I got great clarity up and that I should be in the nonprofit sector. I should be in leadership. I should be focused on creating career opportunities for other people who are blind. That really set, set me on my path. I did take the time to do that, and I highly recommend. I know, I know there's other tools that can assist you in getting that clarity. But it was certainly time well spent, absolutely and I and I did the informational interviews, and I talked to the President of Planned Parenthood of Western Washington, reached out to her and told her my little story, and she said, Well, I was in securities and banking and finance, and I pivoted to the nonprofit sector, and I would recommend you do that by becoming a professional fundraiser, because you spent the last 10 years talking to wealthy people about money, and we have a huge Need in this sector, yeah, and that's what I did. My first nonprofit job was a development officer for the Seattle Public Library Foundation, raising money for the statewide talking book and pray library. It   56:34 takes work, but it does work. It   Speaker 3  56:36 does it does work. You bring about another point, though, too. Dr Adams, you know, if you've got time in between, you know you're looking for a new career and volunteer, find places that you that's right here, because not only will that get you out into the community and make connections for you, but you'll gain new skills and you can take with you then, so that you don't have to volunteer eight hours a Day, but find something you could volunteer a couple of hours a week, etc, but definitely look at volunteering to help you bridge that   Speaker 2  57:09 gap. After this fabulous person told me I should become a professional fundraiser, and I started applying for jobs and not getting them, I didn't have experience, I got a newsletter from the state talking book and Braille library saying that they needed to raise $200,000 or close a program. I called the librarian and said, How about I volunteered 20 to help you raise that money, and that'll give me something to put on my resume, absolutely, and that's what I did? Yeah, listen to it. Listen to a book from Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic on how to write a grant proposal. And did something, got some checks. They created a job. There you go. There you go. Spot on. Well, we have to do this again. Yes, time, time flew by. As I mentioned before, it's always great to spend time with you. Yes, please. Everyone talents with an S ascend.com to reach Robin at Dr Kirk adams.com to reach me. Everyone, have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you. Thanks Robin.   58:15 Thank you.   Speaker 1  58:18 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot DRK adams.com, together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact. You

In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Trough Disability Inclusion, Dr. Kirk Adams speaks with Future Gen CEO, Eddie Mazzariegos, about innovative ways to improve employment outcomes for youth with disabilities. They explore how technology-driven career exploration can reduce barriers, highlight new opportunities, and empower students — especially those who are blind or visually impaired — to chart their own professional paths. Eddie also shares the inspiring story behind Future Gen, the platform's collaboration with vocational rehabilitation programs, and practical tips for educators, families, and advocates aiming to supercharge career readiness and break the cycle of chronic unemployment. 📌 Key Topics Covered: 👉 The importance of early exposure to diverse career pathways 👉 How short-form video curation personalizes career exploration 👉 Strategies to build confidence, self-advocacy, and high expectations 👉 Partnerships with schools and vocational rehab agencies for inclusive education 👉 Real-life successes and how to scale meaningful impact For more insights or to connect with Dr. Kirk Adams: ► Website: https://drkirkadams.com | Email: [email protected] 📧️ | LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirkadamsphd/ Learn more about Future Gen: ► Website: https://www.futuregenxyz.com/ | LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmazariegos/ Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe for more conversations on disability inclusion and employment! TRANSCRIPT: SUMMARY KEYWORDS disability inclusion, employment for disabled, career pathways, workforce participation, chronic unemployment, poverty issues, home ownership, health disparities, blindness skills, high expectations, internal locus, career exploration, future Gen, mentorship programs, career readiness SPEAKERS Speaker 1, Speaker 2 Speaker 1 00:02 Welcome everybody. This is Dr Kirk Adams speaking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington, and this is my monthly live streamed webinar. Supercharge your bottom line through Disability Inclusion, where we focus on employment for people with disabilities, and that is my passion, both professionally, personally, academically, what I have focused on. And each month, I bring a guest who shares that passion with me to create career pathways for people with disabilities to thrive our world. And today, I have the pleasure of having a conversation with Eddie mazzariegos from future Gen. And Eddie, if you can just say hi, and then we'll come back to you in a bit. Speaker 2 00:53 It sounds perfectly fine. Hi everybody. My name is Eddie mazzaregos, as Dr Kirk just mentioned, and I'm Di Len as a neighbor nearby Kirk here in Tacoma, Washington, Speaker 1 01:06 and you are the CEO of a fairly new company called Future Gen, which is addressing some really pressing needs in the space of employment for people with disabilities. So it's a pleasure to have you here, and we'll hear a lot more about future Gen in a bit. So for those of you who don't know me, again, it's Dr Kirk Adams. I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind, prior to that same role at the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, I've spent the last 30 plus years really focused on employment issues for people with disabilities, people who are blind, in particular, and there's, there's, there's some really well documented reasons why I do that. Only about 35% of us with significant disabilities are in the workforce. That's about half the workforce participation rate of the general population. So with chronic unemployment, chronic lack of workforce participation, come to poverty just to just to be really clear about it. So a lot of our people in our community live in poverty. 02:23 Many people have a small Speaker 1 02:28 transfer payment from the government. Social Security, disability insurance being the most typical one, where people get a $1,700 or so per month, which is is not a living income level in our country. So along with poverty comes a lack of home ownership. Our home ownership rate is about 110 that of the general population. Health Disparities, lower life expectancy greater substance abuse issues, depression, mental health issues. So I say, if you look at people with disabilities, blind people in particular, compared to the general population, our outcomes are either half as half as good or twice as bad as the general population. So we really want to address that by being thoughtful and understanding what all the dynamics are to this complex problem. And I want to talk about young people in particular. So as we look at the demographics, as I said, Only 35% of us are the workforce. Of those of us who are working, the majority of us, 03:49 more than half, work for nonprofits or government, Speaker 1 03:54 which is a lower income ceiling than general employment, and we're in a much narrower band of occupations. We know, and I know blind people are capable of being successful in any profession you can think of. I know blind chemists and blind auto mechanics, of course, lawyers and software engineers and cyber security analysts, teachers, any occupation you can can think of, but we're grouped in a narrower band than the general population, and we're also tend to stick at the Bottom couple levels of the org chart. So you don't see a lot of people with significant disabilities up in for management at major corporations, CEOs of companies, nonprofits, et cetera. So we really want to address that, and the route really starts in childhood. So. And you know, there are people who've lived their lives as sighted people and become blind as part of the aging process, or through accident or or or illness, but I really want to talk about people who are growing up visually impaired. So something like only 10% of us are totally blind. I am totally blame myself. Many people, most people who are legally blind, have some level of vision, some some usable, some more usable than others. But it's, it's really a quite, quite a wide spectrum, and so my retina is detached when I was in kindergarten, and I went to a school for blind kids, because that's what kids with disabilities did 60s. And I went to the Oregon State School for the Blind and in first, second and third grade, and I was given three things that are now that I know through research, and I am a researcher. I have a PhD in leadership and change. I did an ethnographic study of blind adults successfully employed in large corporations. But through research, I now know I was given three things that are strong predictors of future success in employment as a blind adult. So so first I was given blindness skills. So being totally blind as a six year old, there was no question that I needed to learn braille. I needed to learn how to travel independently and confidently with a white cane. I needed to learn how to type on a typewriter. So when I started in public school, I could type my spelling tests and my assignments and papers and things for teachers. So I so I learned those things as a six year old, and we now know that the stronger your blind, your specific blindness skills are, the more likely you are to be able to succeed in appointment. The second thing I was given was high expectations. The school I was at, there was 110 120 blind kids. It was K through K through eight. And I know lots of blind kiddos have additional disabilities that are challenging. You know, the philosophy of the Oregon State School for the Blind was that you should be performing at grade level consistent with what your sighted brothers and sisters and neighbors would be doing, as far as reading and math and things like that. So the school held high expectations of me and my parents did as well. They were very young when I became blind. They were in their mid 20s, but my they were both teachers. My father was very involved in athletics. He had a career as a high school basketball coach. They didn't want to see anything less than an A on a report card, and they didn't use my case. The third thing I was given was a real sense of agency, or a strong internal locus of control, which means I really came to believe in my bones that I could create my own path forward. I could solve problems, I could figure things out. And, you know, the school gave us a lot of experiences. We went horseback camping in the Three Sisters wilderness area. We went up on Mount Hood and built snow forts of huge snowballs. We got on the tide pools on the Oregon coast and built around for starfish and sea anemones. And we climbed trees and scraped our knees and did all the things kids that age should do and that strong internal locus of control is opposed by an external locus of control when you and that's a feeling that you really believe things happen to you, you can't do much about it, kind of at the whims and mercy of fate, rather than creating, creating your destiny. So I was, I was given those three things, not not all kids with disabilities, blind kids are given those, those things. No kids with usable vision. Sometimes there's a question, does this kid really need to learn to read Braille? Could they use magnification? They listen to stuff. But in my case, that literacy question was was clear. I needed, needed to get those blindness skills. So 09:32 looking at Speaker 1 09:35 developmentally appropriate stages of life, know you as a parent. If you're a parent of a blind kid, or you're a young blind person, or have a young blind person in your life, you want them to be doing what sighted kids do at that at the same age. So if your four year old sighted child is out tussling around in the sandbox on the playground with the. Neighbor kids. You know your blind child should be doing that with a probably with a cane in their hand. If your middle schooler, sighted son or daughter is going to meet their friends to go to the movies, your blind child should be doing that too. They may have a different transportation solution, but they should be doing those things so it's it's typical that those developmentally appropriate stages can be managed up until the teen years, and then some things start happening. I grew up in small towns in the Pacific Northwest. When kids turned 16 in the towns I grew up in, they got driver's licenses, which I didn't do, and I lived where there was not public transportation, and most kids got some sort of job, did something for pay, and the statistics show that less than 23% of us with significant disabilities get any kind of paid work experience before the age of 23 and that's opposed to over 70% of the general population get some some kind of paid work experience. So so that's kind of where the divide tends to start. And if you don't get that early work experience, and the others competing for jobs, have it, you, you're you're at a significant disadvantage, looking at the factors that lead to successful thriving as blind adults, looking at blind kids and blind adults, there was there was really good research done the American Foundation for the Blind, my organization I proudly led, and Dr Phil hatland, Among others, developed concept called the expanded core curriculum, and this, this may not be welcome news for any young, blind kids listening to this, but you have to learn all the stuff the cited kids learn, and nine other things, right? Nine more things. It's a lot of hard work, and those things include those blindness skills that I mentioned, Braille. If you're not able to read print with magnification at the same speed as a sighted kid, you need to learn braille. You need to learn to use assistive technology, screen reading software, refreshable braille displays, zoom, text, JAWS, NVDA, all those things, orientation and mobility skills I mentioned cane travel you need to be able to travel confidently throughout the world independently. Self Advocacy is another part of the nine elements of the expanded core curriculum, and my my little story is, when I was in high school, Snohomish high home of the Panthers here in Washington State, I was one of about 30 kids who are kind of the college bound group. And in my senior year in high school, we all went to physics first period, and we all went to math analysis, second period, and we all went, went to chemistry third period, and I walked into the chemistry class the first day, and like the teacher, just, oh, no, this is a safety issue. You cannot take chemistry. You need to go to the office and have them give you another class. And I was, I was quite upset. I went home and told my parents, who were both teachers, and we were very isolated. We weren't connected with any blindness organizations. Didn't know any blind adults, really. And you know, they just said, Well, if, if you know, Mr. So and So says, then you know, that's that. So I was assigned to study hall and spend an hour reading trashy novels in Braille in the library third period my senior year. And now, you know, I know that the people around me didn't know better, but they certainly didn't tell me the truth about the capabilities of blind people. I now know, blind people who are PhDs in chemistry, blind people who teach chemistry at the university level. So self advocacy is one of the nine elements of the core curriculum that I didn't, didn't really have. And I'll get to, I'll get to another element in a moment that's related directly to what Eddie's and his company is doing. Before I go there, I want to touch on the important importance of the IEP. So if you're a child with a disability, if you have a kid with a disability in school, you're entitled to an individual. The Education Plan, the IEP, and that's where the school, school district commits to providing services and training and specific focus areas. So it's really important that the IEP be really well done and thorough, and that blind child or child with a disability should be in those meetings, because that's where you learn. That's one way to learn self advocacy. Sometimes the school district will have a team of specialists. You know, your your parent probably doesn't have a lot of experience in these spaces. They you may feel overwhelmed. So I remember talking to one parent of a blind Katie said, you know, if they bring six people to the IEP, I'm bringing seven, they bring 12. I'm bringing 14. If we have to have it in the in the gym, we'll we'll do that. So I really recommend getting connected with advocacy groups, the National Federation of the Blind or the American Council of the Blind, or both. 16:05 Anywhere you live, there'll be a chapter Speaker 1 16:09 within striking distance of you. So ACB and NFB are great resources to find some successful blind adults who can really weigh in and speak with authority and expertise on the IEP, which leads us to the specific part of the IEP of the expanded core curriculum, the ECC, which is career exploration. So it was understood through research that blind kids don't have the same level of understanding as their sighted brothers and sisters and neighbors around career possibilities, career pathways, professions, whether that's because their family and school holds slow expectations for them and doesn't expect them to have the same range of opportunities as their sighted classmates, or isolation. For whatever reason, research is clear that blind kids don't have the same level of understanding of careers, pathways possibilities as their sighted peers do, and Eddie and his company future Jen, are addressing that in a very cutting age modern way, using technology. And I know they are working with school districts and kids with disabilities here in Washington State to open up that world of possibility as far as future employment and careers go. And I know Eddie has some family dynamics with with his brother that really has ignited this particular passion for him. 17:53 So I really like Speaker 1 17:56 to turn it to you, Eddie, and just kind of ask where, what, what's the journey been to bring you up to this point in life, and where are you out with your company, and where do you see things going? And you know what's working well for you. What are the challenges that you still need to overcome to take future Gen to where you see it going. So, kind of, where have you been, where you're at, where you're going, what, what's what's working well, what are the challenges you're facing, and how can people get involved in and help you in your noble cause to move forward? I do want to, acknowledge one really interesting thing is that you're very proud of being an Eagle Scout, and I know that you have engaged people of Norman, fellow Eagle Scouts, enlisted them in the mission. That's very interesting to me, personally, my my father, who's passed away now his, his he was born in 1939 his his father was a doctor, and he was enlisted in the military in 1941 and was an Army doctor, and actually worked at a prisoner of war Camp in Texas that housed German prisoners of war, and he came back to Lake Quinault, where they lived in 1945 and then he passed away in 1949 so my my dad really grew up largely without a father, and he and his brother, my uncle, Lou, Who's 11 months older, both got very involved in Scouting when they both became Eagle Scouts, and it really helped shape their lives. And they, they with, with, without, you know, Father present. They both became remarkable men and leaders. And, you know, they, they've have fond men. Series of scouting and being at the jamborees and the journey and the pathway of Eagle coming in Eagle Scout and the guidance they received from adults involved in scouting. So it was very important to them. And so when you mentioned that your pride in that, to me, it really resonated. So I just wanted to acknowledge that, and with that, I will stop talking. I will ask you, Eddie, to tell our live and the audience viewing the recording about future Gen pathway so far, where are you at? Where you going? So Eddie, it's yours. Speaker 2 20:43 Thank you, Kirk. I appreciate it. It's a I was keeping track. I think you asked maybe 12 questions. At least. I'll start with the one you just mentioned here. But before I say that, there's a you're very true. You're very right when it comes to there's a saying, once an eagle, always an eagle there. If you really like look around. We're kind of sprinkled over everywhere you look. And this is a little side tangent from your initial question, but there's about trying to remember how many millions of us who have become alumni at this point in time, and that's actually kind of where I started future Gen, I was a I've always been very passionate with the question, what do you want to do in the future and in doing so, I have always involved myself in creating mentorship programs, career exploration programs and company culture programs for the past decade, despite this young face, and outside of future Jen, I just had a strong love for that. And at some point in time, I was talking to some buddies of mine in college who, go figure, were also Eagle Scouts. And we just started talking to ourselves like, hey, what's the what's your next, what's your next project? And at the time, I share to everybody that I really do think that people are asking for more guidance in the world, but not necessarily always in the shape and form as as a mentorship program. I wonder what that could be. And you know from those discussions, one of them actually ended up helping me build future Gen where it is. And the founding team of folks that ended up creating future Gen actually were a bunch of Eagle Scouts. I literally had a when you become an Eagle Scout, there's this organization called the National Eagle Scout Association, and they give you, they ask you if you want, basically, like, a Yellow Pages book of all the contacts of Eagle Scouts. And I remember, I didn't know when or this would apply or be important, but I just remember when it was offered when I was 18, and I was like, Yes. And you know, four years after that first point, I remember pulling that book out and telling myself, I need to talk to the smartest people that are out there to talk about, talk about this real problem that I really think that's out there. And little di we know that's how future Gen kind of got all started. But you know, before I maybe start talking about future Gen, and you know why we really believe everybody should love what they do and how we can really get that done. And, you know, get people excited about the question, what do you want to do in the future? Because it's really a story about you. It's your adventure. It's something is your journey that you should always be excited about. Maybe I should maybe talk a little bit about who is Eddie, Speaker 1 23:40 yeah. And I think if you just gave a headline for context of what future Gen is and what what you do, Speaker 2 23:49 of course, of course. So if I had to put it all in a nutshell, future Gen is a Gen Z career readiness and exploration platform. We essentially curate short form videos of working professionals from YouTube, Tiktok and Instagram to identify the career and skills acquisition interests of the future workforce. So we share these career insights of students and young adults across their entire support network. I'm talking about their parents, their teachers, their counselors, anybody that it touches the lives of these kids and together, put put these insights in a way so they can collaborate on what comes next. Me myself again. I mentioned that I'm an Eagle Scout. I also describe myself as, again, as a mentor and as a lennial, who, over the past 10 years, have been very involved in creating career exploration, mentorship and company culture programs. Again, despite this, maybe the smile here, young smile here, but that's that's me and myself and the company. In a tiny nutshell, I'm happy to dive into anything specific. Kirk, yeah. Speaker 1 24:57 Well, I just thought. Yeah, it'd be good to have a snapshot. Well, we can dig into details a bit later, but I want to hear the story of Eddie, 25:10 who is Eddie, gosh, Speaker 2 25:14 well, I'll maybe give a little bit more than a nutshell, but not too long. But I come from. Come from an immigrant family. My My mother is from Ecuador. My father is half Spanish, half Guatemalan. And the reason why I bring that up is, when you're the first born of a whole generation, which which I am, and you come from that background, it's kind of expected, or there's high pressure, to become the family's first doctor, lawyer or engineer. And at age 12, I declared to the world that I'm going to become the family's first emerging trauma surgeon. And so I did everything that I could to really get myself into that space, from internships to volunteer opportunities, etc. And, you know, captain of soccer teams, etc. And I was fortunate enough that, before going to college, I was given an opportunity to go to a medical apprenticeship program at Harvard University to discover what I didn't want to become a doctor. So I did the most sensible thing any you know, 1718, year old kid could do, which was when it was time to apply for college all my personal statements that were written for for medical school related opportunities, I decided to scratch everything, and in front of our only family computer in the living room, I rewrote all my personal statements for environmental sciences two days before the last before applications for do at University of California schools, and which I don't recommend, by the way, but I was fortunate enough to the reason why I did that was because of my Eagle Scout project actually just reopen a entire wildlife corridor in my local area, and that just opened up my eyes even further that there are just countless ways to add value to the community. And so after getting into UC Davis, which into their environmental sciences program. Guess what? I quickly learned that I had a huge love for the world of finance. And so I had asked myself at a point in time like, How on earth does somebody that loves medicine, the environment and finance make me me? Because at any point in time, I don't believe pursuing a passion is a waste of time, and I definitely didn't feel like I was wasting my time discovering more about myself. And so I was fortunate enough to kind of define my own North Star in my early 20s, which I still follow today. So whenever I find myself in a fork in the road making to to many, a tough decision, it's pretty simple to me. So my North Star, my compass, essentially, is, I hope, to become somebody that's able to make long, lasting impact and helping as many people as possible, which isn't a job title, but it has been my guiding compass and whatever I do, and that was whether I was back in, and you could say maybe that foundation was put in the boy scouts. Go figure our Scout Law, our scout oath, or Scott motto. I saw all that lives and breathes still in me. And you know, I hope to, I hope I continue to showcase that compass of mine through my actions. But yeah, that's that's a little bit about myself and a little more than a nutshell. 28:51 So it's hopefully I didn't bore anybody. 28:54 Oh no, not at all. So Speaker 1 28:57 very, very inspiring, actually, that you had that level of self awareness at that age. I feel like I stumbled along my path in comparison. But then, how did these passions and this level of self awareness and the North Star coalesce around creation of future temple. Speaker 2 29:27 I think, a big passion to why I would always, I was always, always a huge advocate for mentorship programs at a company level, like at Hyundai, or for smaller club and organizations that I was involved in, such as my college clubs, or in the local greater Los Angeles area, for the for the Boy Scouts down there, our Area Council down there. 29:54 I just always have, 29:56 I've always seen Speaker 2 29:59 I am not. Where I am today because of my own self. There's a saying in the south which is, if you see a turtle on top of a fence post, it's most likely the turtle didn't get there themselves. And so I recognize that I didn't get where I am today by myself. I actually as many times as I also stumbled to I also asked for a lot of help, and it's something that I know that is not easy for everybody to do. To ask for help, you're showcasing vulnerability when you are asking. But I really do think that it's a position of building in public when you'd be surprised. When you're building in public, how many of those are in your corner, you'd be surprised how many are out there. So how it ties to future Gen is that I realized for my own self, that I got to where I am today because of the many, many of thought leaders and individuals that decided to say yes to me when I asked for help. And so with future Gen, was an opportunity to like, How can I also pay it forward and say yes to not just folk on a one to one basis, but at scale? Speaker 1 31:13 Have you created the companies prior to this, or is this your first venture, as far as actually creating a corporation and developing 31:23 a product, taking it to market. Speaker 2 31:26 This is the first company I ever led from scratch. I've supported ideas and projects and initiatives, but as in terms of a company that 31:37 it's more than just an expensive hobby, 31:41 the first Speaker 1 31:44 and tell, was there an aha moment? Was it 31:51 I'm, you know, I Speaker 1 31:55 have a company myself, innovative, impact consulting, but it really came out of my career in focusing on creating opportunities for opportunities for people are blind, and when my it was time to close the chapter at the American Foundation for the Blind and relocate back to my hometown in Seattle and start the Next chapter, it kind of happened by osmosis. Those people I worked with before and had relationships with reached out to me and asked, Can you help with this? Can you help with that? Can you give us some advice? You connect us with some people? So it kind of developed naturally for me. But I'm just, did you wake up one morning and say, I'm starting a company, and it's going to be called Future Gen, and that's what, this is, what we're going to do, or how did it actually What's the origin story of the company? I'm very curious. Speaker 2 32:52 Thanks. If I had to go back to inspiration, I guess you can say, with future Gen, a lot of it really had to come from a mixture of experiences that kind of come together. So Kirk, you mentioned my little brother, which I know that you and I have talked in passing, but to share a little bit more to the audience here, I have a little brother. As I mentioned, I'm the oldest of not just my generation, but essentially also my family here and my immediate family. And so I have a younger brother. I have a younger sister, but my little brother, there is actually an 11 year gap between us and between which is quite a bit actually. He's actually graduating high school this year, but super smart kid, super funny, musically talented, but for some reason, just doesn't, didn't see what others saw in him. And when asking myself, did I ever see that? Did I ever myself directly experience that problem? I would say, potentially not, but I cared about my brother very much, and I historically, we've seen so many good friends of mine also struggle with this. And I started thinking to myself, Okay, well, how did, how did, how was I so certain with all the actions that I've done? Maybe, maybe there are some and who are some others that have also may have experienced certainty in terms of very specific decisions of what they wanted to do, or maybe at least the next step. And I started thinking to myself, Okay, well, I don't want more people like my brother that experience the what's next question in a daunting way, because it can have I'm going to continue, but I'm going to ask Kirk I noticed that it is only the two of us now and or it is the we may have lost our other host. Speaker 1 34:54 Oh, well, kalana got us started and set the recording. So perfect. I'll continue that. Perform recording. So carry on, carrying on then. Speaker 2 35:06 And so there's that experience that was there. I've also experienced as as often, as you mentioned, not challenged. I've also experienced a lot of no's. I remember another big experience that was big to me in creating future Gen was in college, there was this club that was relating to finance, and it was very, very elitist. And I was fortunate enough to earn a position in leadership, and I started to administer some change in there, and the change was not welcomed, unfortunately. So I was unfortunately removed, but I didn't take that remove as, hey, that's just it, and I decided to actually create my own organization that was much more inclusive of anybody that did not have finance experience. And that was actually a huge uplift in learning how to build career exploration programs from scratch, making partnerships with universities and local companies, being able to actually build workshops with other PhD and colleges nearby to make sure that folks that are really wanting to upskill themselves they can. So I'll stop there. There's there's several others, but those are two very big things. Was, I understand that there is a need for access, and there's a hunger for access, but it's not necessarily always as accessible. And everybody, I think, could benefit so much when they hear their first Yes, when you have your first Yes, you'd be surprised how much confidence that gives into an individual and just how much more drive that feeds anyone. Speaker 1 36:47 And I know you're working with kids now future dens working with kids. I know the Tacoma area with various school districts, and you have a contract with our Department of Vocational Rehabilitation here in Washington State. So tell us what the experience is like for a young student with a disability has the the opportunity to access future Gen platform, what, what is? What is their experience like? What? What? What value are they gaining from future Gen Yeah, of Speaker 2 37:27 course. Be careful Kirk, because I can talk about this part all day. So So, yes, future gens, one of our what contracts that we service is with Washington's department of vocation rehabilitation. They have a specific program called pre ETS, which is pre employment transition services. And we specifically help the job exploration slash career exploration side of that their efforts, in which case the full picture is to really help students with documented disabilities between 14 to 21 transition to the workforce successfully, and so we have been had the wonderful opportunity to service hundreds of kids and growing here in Washington State. And the I'll share a more recent one. I'll use a las names for some folk, but I'll tell you something that was really, really cool, because this is a this is the work that I love. This work that seeing the smile on other kids, that it's just it is amazing. It's very meaningful in its own, in his own regard, too, but actionable too, which is great. So what we do is we typically go into schools. We onboard again, school on students that can have a range of high needs, ranging from sometimes sensory challenges to 38:59 short attention spans to just Speaker 2 39:06 physical challenges as well. And as we do so, we start showing them these videos, and we capture, again, their career skills, acquisition interests, from their engagement with these videos. They're liking, their disliking. You know, it's a passion is we believe is a superpower, and we introduce, well, what are the necessary skills that are needed for these, for these potential occupations that you just never even knew existed? And so there's this one individual. I'm going to call him Connor. And this the student, Connor, I remember we had like an A B test, which was, we're going to have some workshops. We're going to work with the student manually to try and gather what our current 39:49 What did you say, A, B, Speaker 2 39:52 something? Oh, yes. Sorry. Maybe some spark, our startup talk right there, which is, you have a control group. And then you have, like, a real group testing out the product itself. And so with Connor, in a specific example, this is a student that, if handed a, you know, a laptop or tablet of any kind, if frustrated, will throw their laptop across the room. Their eyes are, you know, darting left and right. Their attention is everywhere and so initially, when we first started servicing this specific student, we decided to do, okay, we're going to do a manual career exploration workshop with this individual, and then we're going to compare how the results are on the Atlas or career Atlas. And Connor, turns out, before he touches the future. Jones Corrales, we found out that he, he loves the content creator economy. He has his own YouTube channel. He's posting all these videos. He's just super like, all about YouTube, essentially. And so we discover, like, Okay, this guy is probably going to have something interesting and or interesting or aligned with entertainment, possibly, okay, let's, let's give him Corrales, now that we have a strong understanding what he may want. And I remember, when first giving him, handing over corals to this the student Connor, I explained quickly, you know, or I explained to him, you know, how to use future Gen. And was it I walked to I walked I took two sets back, and Connor, he was just liking and disliking videos within two seconds or less. 41:33 This is web based or app based, revolt. 41:36 He's on a tablet. Connor's on a tablet. Speaker 2 41:38 Yes, in this case, on tablet. Speaker 1 41:42 And he's get, he's given glimpses through video that you've 41:47 harvested Speaker 1 41:49 from the virtual world, right? And then he can say, 41:54 I like that. I don't like that. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 42:02 And typically, most students, they'll spend about 30 seconds and 90 minutes or 90 seconds on a video and decide whether they like or dislike from there, once they get the hang of things, they may be shorter, shorter to maybe 15 seconds, but Connor here immediately, was adding or putting input within two to three seconds for a number of videos. And so I stepped away thinking results, his results are going to be interesting. And when he raised his hand to announce that he was done, I walked back over to his seat. We looked at his results, and guess what? The number one recommended industry that was for him was entertainment theater. And we were like, Okay, what, what's, what else is there? And we started diving into, specifically into, like, Hammerman opportunities. And it was just, it was like, Wow, I'm so Speaker 1 42:52 how long did that initial assessment take Speaker 2 42:57 Connor himself? I think he probably did that all within maybe six or seven minutes. Oh, okay, which is very, very speedy compared to other students that are taking more of their time maybe, or maybe have different, different high needs. Speaker 1 43:18 So this is in a school based situation that sounds like you were there to guide him and give him that support. And I'm imagining as future din grows and more and more school districts and vocational rehabilitation systems that adopt use of future Gen, you're not going to be able to be with each user. How how can people do this from home? Does it need to be in a school based situation? What are the various scenarios in which young people with disabilities can't access the value of future general Well, Speaker 2 43:58 as of right now, the the best way we're more locally engaged here in Washington, go go figure, especially with the contract. But when it comes to if you are a pre es eligible student here in Washington State, you we can't contact you with a local RTC, a regional transition counselor, etc, and then we can get you access. I will say, though, even though I mentioned that example, that that was there physically, we've already had two schools successfully do it themselves without my presence there necessarily, other than maybe some. Hey, here's your email to get things started that's that's also been really cool. At this point in time, we have more of a we don't necessarily do something called direct to consumer. We typically do more organizational engagements. But hey, if anybody's listening and curious, I'll drop my content. Ask the email or information down here, and can change that Speaker 1 45:03 and speak if you speak it as well. People listening to the recording can access it. So let's do that now. How and then, I want to ask some the future of future Gen questions. But for now, how can people get in touch with you. Eddie, how can they learn more about future Gen and how it can be so helpful to young people with disabilities in that vital element of the expanded core curriculum, which is career exploration? Speaker 2 45:34 Well, we can find you. Can find us on the internet. You can type in future Gen, x, y, z, Career Compass. I just dropped the URL in the chat here that's reported anywhere. Sometimes when you just type in future Gen, there's like a power plant that pops up. That's not a line the the green energy in that kind of space we do support the climate workforce. Give us a highly separate discussion. But future Gen career, compass, XYZ, put the any combination source together, we easily pop up in the top. 46:12 You can also easily most active, also on LinkedIn. 46:17 I'll also share that here as well. Spell Speaker 1 46:19 that last name goes or the people out there? Yes, Speaker 2 46:24 so Eddie spelled E, D, D, I, E, and my last name, maze rigos is m, a, z, A, R, I, E, G, O, S. So happy to also do a quick screen share, if that makes any sense at all, yeah. Why not? Yeah. Okay. I'll go ahead and give a quick screen share, then and close some text. Because I don't know about you, Kirk, but I Speaker 1 46:55 opened way too many and then and then for me, if anyone wants to talk about careers, employment for people with disabilities, blind kids, opportunities for blind people and people with other significant disabilities to thrive in the world of work. I will, I will talk about that all day long so you can reach me at Kirk Adams at Dr Kirk adams.com is my email. So Kirk Adams at Dr Kirk adams.com I'm also very active on LinkedIn, Kirk Adams PhD, and you can find me, we can set up time to talk. So as as we, as we, as we spend the next few minutes. Eddie, what are the top two or three things that you and your team need to accomplish to to move the company forward to where you where, where you see it going, which is obviously to serve a lot more kids and a lot more settings. So what are the top two or three things you need to get done? Speaker 2 48:07 Well, as of right now, we're actually looking at putting together a much larger agreement with, again, the local Department of Vocational Rehabilitation department here in Washington. 48:21 But if I had to say two or three things, Speaker 2 48:25 and if we were specifically talking about career exploration and what I described as the tech accessibility space, our team actually has a whole plan, actually, for 2025 specifically just catered to this one, is we have to go ahead and partner ourselves with the research institution to make sure that we are scientifically backed. So we have many smart people that are here on the team, including our chief science officer. And he again, talk about gentlemen another time, but he's somebody that is really a lot of the thought capital comes to really building the career exploration focused algorithm, I guess you can say, but there is a hunger for evidence that's out there in as much so needed nothing that's wishy washy. So we've been talking to a couple of universities that are considering to partner with for the long term. Another thing that we see ourselves really become much further and have a much wider impact is becoming the del facto technology partner here with Washington's department vocational rehabilitation, pre ETS program here, which we're in heavy discussions with that would actually enable us to be able to have an impact across multiple other states and be competitive in that sense, because we would then have a government level entity that we support and for a lot of many other states, that's a more than a request. This all. Then sets things up for ourselves to go into a place called Transition Tennessee, which we have been in touch with that organization as well. They have, they're a hub, I guess you can say, a lot of resources for building a more inclusive workforce. And they're again a specific segment for pre ETs and job exploration, slash career exploration. So those are kind of like three things specifically, there's, you know, at a high level, there's several other things that we're specifically diving on. But do we really want to talk about, you know, being section 508, compliant, um, I'm happy. 50:38 There's, there's other things good. Speaker 1 50:39 Well, you're on a great path, and you and I met the fall at Seattle disability Connect, which is a event that happens quarterly on the Microsoft campus. Actually, one this evening, january 30, 2025 I'll be there. And really just a pleasure Eddie, to have you with me today. For anyone listening, if you have a young person with a disability in your life and you're cognizant of their future, it would behoove you to reach out a future Gen, G, E and x, y, z, you can find them on, on with the search engine. Of course, connect with Eddie and we'll, we'll do it. We'll do what we can do to make this valuable career exploration tool available to you and your loved ones. Again, this is Dr Kirk Adams. This has been super charge your bottom lines for disability inclusion. Next month, on March 27 I'll be back, and I'll be having a conversation with Aaron De Blasi of mind vault solutions, and we're going to talk specifically how a blind person such as myself, who is not a tech whiz, can use AI tools to create to create content, to create impactful professional content. Using artificial intelligence, we're going to walk through a real world example and give everyone a step by step guide, step by step guide on how to do that. So again, Eddie, thank you so much for your time and attention. It's really been fortunate for me to have connected with you and future Gen I'm excited about what you're doing. It's sorely needed. I wish it had been around when I was in school, because I can honestly say I had no clue. So thank you for what you're doing. Speaker 2 52:42 Thank you Kirk and thank you for having me here. Take 52:46 good care. Everyone. See you next month. Bye.

KEYWORDS:   disability rights, employment inclusion, blindness skills, guide dog, Deloitte Consulting, Harvard Business School, private equity, mentorship program, technical training, leadership development, corporate partners, family support, employment rate, strategic objectives, financial support TRANSCRIPT:   00:00 Music.   00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   00:36 welcome everybody to podcasts with Dr Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And as you may or may not know, I am the managing director of my very own consulting practice, innovative act LLC, where I focus on fun, innovative, high impact projects that will accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in the workforce. And I say I help companies supercharge their bottom line through Disability Inclusion. I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind, prior to that, held the same roles at the lighthouse for the blind. Inc, you're in beautiful, rainy Seattle, and today I have a guest that I have the privilege of knowing for quite a number of years. We used to be neighbors in Crystal City in Arlington, Virginia. Now we're 3000 miles apart, but I'd like love to introduce you all to Catherine Webster, who, among other things, is the founder and president of a foundation called together achieving dreams, which is helping young blind people move forward and thrive in life. I had the privilege of having my first call as a mentor to one of the young blind people that the foundation is working with. And Catherine, welcome to my podcast.   02:07 Dr Kirk Adams, it is such a pleasure. I always love chatting to you, with you, and even better than it's on a podcast platform, thanks   02:15 for having me so the whole world can listen in on our conversation, exactly. So I would love to hear about your journey a little bit. When I first met you, you were kind of just beginning in the professional career. You were in a leadership role with the blind students of the National Federation of the Blind. You surprised me in how new you were to blindness and how excellent your blindness skills were. So would love to just get a little bit of your personal story that has brought you from birth to now.   03:00 Yeah, absolutely great question, and always way longer than than I want to share. So I will keep it short and sweet. But like Kirk said, like you said, I long story short, I guess starting from the way beginning, I was born totally blind, which wildly enough, when I was 16 days old, I got vision in one of my eyes. Saw that well, you know, visual impaired, quote, unquote, for years. So I, you know, leaned on large print and didn't know braille. Starting in high school, started learning braille. So all that to say I was in denial in those in those years where, like every teenager is in denial and had having no vision in one eye and having limited in the other I wanted to still do whatever I wanted to do. So I was a cheerleader, I wrote, I did track, I was integrated into, you know, public school systems. And I grew up actually, in Connecticut. My mom moved us here from Florida for the awesome public schools, and grateful for her for that choice forever. But long story short, around high school, had several surgeries, cornea transplant issues, whatever it is, and I started realizing there are some things that I just can't do. And for me, that's a challenge. I want to be able to do anything, and if someone tells me I can't, I want to prove them wrong. So how I approach that is acceptance on some of the pieces. So cheerleading, with with all sighted cheerleaders, and me, once it got to a certain point, there's a safety risk. So I did step back on that, and instead leaned in on, you know, sports where I could do it fully independently, rowing, track and field, etc. So starting college, I got a guide dog, and that was kind of my first step of acceptance. And I still, I mean, I tell high school students who are blind all the time to to, you know, accept yourself, embrace a cane, all that stuff easier said than done when you're in those environments. But I used college as that rebranding moment where no one knows who I. Am or hardly anyone, and I've got a social magnet of a guide dog, use that slightly as a crutch, socially speaking, and all that to say, as I went into my last year of college at Wake Forest University in North Carolina, I ended up losing my vision two weeks before graduating from just a freak accident retinal detachment that went wrong too much filled up whatever. So after that, had no more vision. And at that point, I had already signed with Deloitte Consulting. I was terrified, and didn't really know how to take it, but I'll also understood fake it till you make it is kind of the mantra for any young professional. So leaned on that a little bit. And during my college years, while I didn't heavily lean on Braille or anything like that, I started to need to as a decrease. So it almost gave me those training wheels before losing the rest of my vision to be successful. And I appreciate your compliment on having good blindness skills. But it definitely, in the beginning, was a fake it till you make it, until I gain that confidence. And like, you know, use JAWS the screen reading software. And you   06:15 were, you were in a STEM field in school, right? I   06:19 was, I studied statistics in computer science, and it's funny. I'm sure you How did   06:25 you do that? As a very low vision person,   06:31 were using assistive technology? Were you   06:33 I was I was actually using Mac initially, with Zoom, and then as my vision decreased, I switched over to Jaws, a different screen reader, yeah, and on Windows, and that was much better. But I got the pushback that many students get, as I'm sure you hear all the time, like, why don't you do English or history, which is great if someone wants to, but I wanted to do daft and Comp Sci. So. So then started at Deloitte, and like you mentioned, I wanted to give back in a lot of different ways, because so many people, sighted or blind mentor me tremendously. You being one of them, and I wanted to, it was kind of that time of my life where I wanted to also give back. So started doing different leadership roles within the National Federation of blind and also, as we'll get into it. Started the town Todd foundation a couple years ago now, but pivot after Deloitte, I was there for almost four years, and then went to Harvard business school to get my MBA. And now I work in private equity at KKR in New York City. So I can't believe it's been 10 years since I graduated high school, but lots, lots has happened.   07:42 Yeah. So just curious. So you said something along the lines of, I'm paraphrasing. If someone says I can't do it, I'm doing it. Where does that come from?   07:55 That's a good question. I think it comes from two things. It comes from my mom's personality, she's always taught my brother and me, he cited, obviously I'm not she's always said, shoot for the stars. My dad also has instilled that in me. So I think part of it's that, and growing up with a single mom, she made everything happen, and I never knew when we were struggling, even when we were I think the other part of it is when you're frustrated of things you know you can't inherently do, it makes you want to do things even better. And I love shattering misconceptions. That's probably because I'm stubborn, as you know, but part of it's also just, I you've got to have tenacity to, like, make it in the world. And it's frustrating as a blind person, having to educate every day. But if you don't do it, who's going to do it? So I think it's, you know, built up frustration and and admiration. Okay,   08:53 two sides of the coin, frustration and, yes,   09:03 so the foundation,   09:07 the name, has a lot of significance, I know, and what, what sparked you to take your volunteerism and your leadership with the National Association of Blind students and formalize it, and put it into a structure, and really do it   09:25 that that took a lot of years of thinking, and you may agree or disagree here, but there's a lot of nonprofits in the world. Most are doing awesome things. Not all are the most efficient in the world. And me being a business person by trade, I only wanted to start a nonprofit if I thought that it would do something meaningful and actually change something in a grander way. Um, so when I was at when I was in business school in Boston. I was kind of struggling with back and forth with, do I go the entrepreneurial route and start a nonprofit from scratch, or do I escalate a different one? And what it came down to for me was representation matters, and I have such a niche focus in my mind of what I'm passionate about, which is increasing employment for the blind and low vision community in like high paying gainful employment jobs, and that doesn't exist. So the our approach is very unique. And to your point   10:36 on, have you read my dissertation? No, but now I want to it's called journeys through country, an ethnographic study of blind adults successfully employed in large American corporations. So I interviewed a bunch of 100% too. I'll send you a link. So I interviewed a bunch of people who were working in name brand corporations, whose names you would know and found out the factors that led to their success. And I won't digress too far, but two, there were nine themes and two, two main ones. One was everyone had a great sense of agency, that they could forge their own path. They had a strong internal locus of control. Felt they could create their destiny. All of them could trace that back to something, an experience, a relationship, family. A lot of them were. You were a cheerleader, a rower, a runner, a swimmer, all those things. So a lot of the lot of people attribute it to some outdoor experience, some athletic experience, and then the other one was disappointment. Everyone was disappointed. Like, why am I the only blind person who's made it this far in this company? Why aren't there any people with disabilities in the C suite? Why do I constantly have to fight for accommodations? Why do I keep having to educate people? Why are people hired after me getting promoted beyond me. So   12:03 yep, yep. And the hard problem is I would love that, because the disappointments so real, and like my dream one day is to run the Todd foundation. Of course, I sit in a corporate America seat that I'm very, very happy in. But that's also the internal struggle, because you want awesome blind people running awesome blindness organizations too. So there's a lot of pieces there, but I would, I would love to read that. So when I decided on Tad, it really came down to my father had passed away in 2017 right after I lost my vision. His name was Tad, so of course, named after him, and that loss paled in compare. Or my losing my vision paled in comparison to losing my father. So that put a whole new perspective on blindness for me, where I was like, This literally doesn't matter. It's one part of me. It doesn't matter. And yes, of course, during grieving, you go, you grow like, empathetic, etc, and I think that was a big part of it. But I decided finally, when I was sitting in a class at Harvard Business School and entrepreneurship that I wanted, I wanted to take that step, and I wanted to bring a team of sighted people and blind people together to really make magic happen around effectively changing the employment rate,   13:21 and how are you doing that? What? What are the program activities currently?   13:28 So chat is structured with three under, under, kind of pinned pillars that go toward our mission of increasing employment for the blind and low vision community. The first is our fellowship program. So think I want to say mentors on steroids. So each of our students, college, whether undergrad or grad school, blind students, are paired up with a sighted mentor and a blind mentor in their career interest area. At the same time as that, we have immersive in person, weekend programming throughout the academic year, where we're all together shoulder to shoulder, doing very intense technical skill training, leadership development, networking, soft skills, that's in person, yeah. Okay, cool. So those are four weekends, and then in between all of our weekends, we have virtual on demand trainings where students are able to hone in on the skills that they need to work on more at the individual level, and then in person, we're bringing it all together and getting them the every every session, they're presenting on new topics they've never heard of. They're assessing company 10 Ks, they're writing, they're doing financial modeling, they're building PowerPoints. They're doing things that any person going into the workforce should be able to do, but we're giving them the head start. We're vetting their materials. We're working with them on making it excellent, and we're making sure that they're comfortable as a blind person, kind of leveraging their those alternative techniques and approaching them. So I always say, if you start. Go with blindness skills, go get blindness skills training, and then come to us. We don't focus on that, but we certainly compliment, you know, using the assistive tech to make magic happen in the in the workplace. So that's the first pillar. The second piece is working with companies and community partners on different access points of bringing blind and low vision folks to work. So whether a company wants to hire people, we're kind of vetting those students, providing the resumes, making sure they're a good fit prior to the interviews even happening, whether it's an internship, a full time job, an experience, whatever it is. But then we're also working with companies on just understanding disability and blindness, as I'm sure you do a lot of too, if just there's still the stigma and there's still a lot of conversations to be had and questions and uncertainty that companies sort through as they work on this, and I think part of that's leaning on Diversity and Equity and Inclusion goals with companies Of like, what does that really mean in practice? But then it's also putting light on you may have never met a blind person, like, here is capable blind people doing things in the world that are that are certainly qualified and talented for your company. So that's the second piece. And then the third is working with families of little blind kids, so think zero to five years old, making sure the parents are setting up their young, young kids for success as early as possible. And I think that's the biggest gap, because it's great that we're hitting college students, but there are so many blind people not getting to college because they're not taught from a young age that they have what it takes.   16:39 Yeah, that I wasn't aware of that piece of that pillar that's that's really exciting and super important. Yes,   16:49 yes, huge. So that one we're launching this year. It's always been one of our core pillars, but it's been on, I don't want to say, the back burner, but it hasn't been the highest priority. As we launched the fellowship program and we, our organization started in formally speaking, two years ago, so January 2023, and we've had now two iterations of the cohort program. We're in our second year right now, so things are going awesome, and we're really loving what we're doing with the students.   17:18 So you said ultimately you would like to be the person running tad together, achieving dreams foundation. So tell, tell, tell me the vision five years from now. What? What is the scope   17:39 five years from now? For Tad,   17:41 yeah, I've got happy achieve   17:45 that dream. The dream, the dream,   17:49 exactly, so I think right now we've got a just to clarify, we've got an awesome, full time director, and I'm going nowhere anytime soon, understood, but dreaming huge. I think so. If I were to take it step by step, we have 15 students right now in our program. I think we'll have 50 next year, and I think we'll have 500 in the next five years. Wow. And I truly feel that way, because we had nearly 100 applicants last year when we didn't even put out a flyer, we didn't market it at all, and every student we had the first year wants to come back for more and wants to learn more. So in that front I think we'll have 500 qualified blind students in five years ready to be employed in high paying positions where they deserve to sit. I think from a company standpoint, today, we've got 11 corporate sponsors and corporate partners we're working with. I think we'll have 100 and again. Now that we have the infrastructure of a full time person as of two months ago, I feel sky is the limit, and now that we can really put the dedicated time in terms of families being a bit more realistic, I think will hit 100 families in terms of impact of them having a strong network as they raise their little blind kids. So that's my dream. Five years from now, if I were to say it more intangibly speaking, I want companies to know who we are. I want them to trust our process of making sure the students we work with are qualified and capable. And I also want this shift to happen where the unemployment rate isn't at 70 or 75% it's much lower, and there's actually representation where you step foot in a building and it doesn't feel like you're the only person that's educating everyone around you. Let's do that. So that's my dream. Let's make it happen. Kirk, that's a good treat.   19:47 So if you were going to point out kind of the two or three biggest wins so far over the past two years, what would you say?   19:58 I think the biggest win. On the first year? Well, the whole board always tells me that I have, like, extremely high expectations for people, and that that I am a tough cookie. So leaning on that, I think our baby goal was that we executed an amazing program. The ambitious piece that we met the metrics on is we had 100% placement for our first year. So 13 students came through our first year program. 13 had experiences over the summer that, to me, before we scale, largely speaking, is exactly what I want every   20:35 single year. And summer is actually a work experience with a company, yes,   20:40 with a company roughly 10 weeks, yep. Okay, cool, in person on the job. So I think that was one of our biggest goals. I think the second is how much we are branding ourselves, the amount of and it just baffles me, because we do little pieces of marketing, whether they there's a magazine article about us or whatever it is, but where companies are reaching out to us, cold calling us, you know, on LinkedIn and social media, saying, Hey, what's this all about? We want to help. To me, that's when I know the word is getting out there. And when that happens, it makes like we're not doing the cold calls. It's the other way. And I love that, and that's how I know that we're being successful and we're kind of getting in the right pockets of space,   21:26 absolutely. So to get to get from here to the dream, I could call them challenges, but I'll call them strategic objectives. So what are the two three key strategic objectives you're going to accomplish to get to where you want to go.   21:43 The two that come to mind, just from a key performance indicator perspective, is every nonprofit, of course, needs financial support, and we continue to push that. As we get more money, we hire more staff, and we need staff to really run the infrastructure of our programs, coordinating the mentorship program, in and of itself, is a big lift. So strategically speaking, as we continue building our corporate partners, it's making that happen. I think the second goal is to use our students as success stories every single year to expand how many students were reaching, and we're doing that. But as we get more students in the program, and they're graduating, building out that alumni network of now, they're all mentors of the incoming students, and that being kind of a cyclical process, I think, will allow us to reach every single goal that we've set and we've we've put together just year over year, how that growth is going to look like. So I think increased staff and students being those storytellers, to bring more folks in and to get companies more comfortable. The more spaces we're in, the more the more times you know, people want to reach out and be intentional.   22:58 The research shows a company that hires a person a disability is more likely to hire another a company that hasn't done it yet. So proxy and that just   23:12 shows that that we're just like anyone else, right? I mean, I think our strategic thinking is a bit stronger, but besides that, we're equally as capable, if not more capable.   23:22 So the folks listening to the scintillating conversation we're having, how can they help you to achieve those objectives?   23:34 I'll keep it to a couple, though the sky is the limit on how we can get folks connected to tad first and foremost, of course, check us out on tad foundation.org, T, A, D, foundation.org, or reach out to us over email. [email protected] we are looking for blind people, whether they are working they're college students. We need mentors and mentees. We're looking for sighted folks who care about this type of work to lean in as mentors, volunteers, whatever it is. If you know a blind person, we want to know them, and we want to know you beyond that, though, I always tell everyone to ask questions, because I think the biggest disadvantage is when people are curious about something, and they don't ask, and then they don't know, and then the stigma continues. So if you're listening and you know nothing about blindness, love that we would love to hear from you, I get asked silly questions all the time, and I absolutely love it, because it's a moment for us to educate people, and it's a moment for you to know that there are other people in the world doing things just the way you are, maybe a little differently. So I would say, engage in any way possible. Know that that we are out here doing awesome work, and would love to connect with you.   24:55 Fabulous and By that same token, I am available my. Mission in life is to create opportunities for people who are blind and have other disabilities to thrive, whatever way that means for them. And my particular interest that I share so strongly with Catherine is around employment, a good, meaningful job, cures a lot of other deals. So very interested in working with companies who want to create a competitive advantage by hiring a super workforce, people with disabilities who have developed wonderful, unique strengths through the lived experience of disability. You can reach me Kirk, Adams at Dr Kirk. Adams.com Kirk Adams at Dr, Kirk adams.com I'm also on LinkedIn every day, and what I would like to do Catherine is have you back in about one year. I know we'll be talking many times between now and then, but have you back on this podcast about 12 months talk about how far the Tad Foundation has come over that 12 month period, because I know it's going to be a long way down that dream highway. And we can talk about your upcoming wedding 2026, when we talk next,   26:15 I love it. That sounds awesome. Thank you so much again. Kirk, for having   26:18 all right, always a pleasure to talk with you. Katherine, thanks so much, and thanks everyone for listening. Take good care.   26:26 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a [email protected] together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact. You.

TRANSCRIPT 00:00 Music.   00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   00:37 hello, everybody. This is Dr Kirk Adams from innovative impact consulting and welcome to my podcast. And I have I'm returning a favor to Donna jodhan, who graciously interviewed me for her podcast. Welcome Donna. Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here, and it is a New Year. Happy New Year to you, to you too. And I'd like to take this one step at a time. What I'm thinking is to ask you to tell us about your journey which has brought you, has brought you to the point in time we're at now, what you're involved in currently, and then where, where you would like to see, where we you would like to take things, and when we, when we talk about where you would like to take things, I'd love to hear about what's working well for you, where, where you're finding successes and any challenges you might be having. So if, if we could just take it away, I'll hand you the talking stick and ask you to talk about your journey from from birth to present. Oh dear. Thank you very much. I'll do the best I can. So I was born eight hours after my twin brother Jeffrey,   02:04 Mom and Dad did not know that I was expected, only after he was born that the midwife told mom and dad, hey, another one is on its way, and mom had to wait eight hours for me to arrive.   02:22 The mom and dad asked the midwife to call a doctor, and she refused. So mom suffered for eight hours, and when I was born, mom realized right away that something was wrong with my eyes, and she said to the midwife, this child has eye problems. And the midwife refused to, you know, listen to mom, but Mom was correct. So I guess this is probably the foundation for how I was brought up and what I felt that I needed to do in order to fulfill my own life and to help others. I felt strongly that I was given an opportunity to do something after being born under these circumstances, and I think from an early age, my desire was to help others,   03:17 you know, to help make a better future for the kids, because I was given the opportunity to have a future. I was very privileged to have parents and a grandmother and two brothers and five dogs all helped me out. So I decided that this is what I wanted to do. I left home at a very early age, I grew up in Montreal, Canada, and   03:45 I don't think I can ever put a date on when I really started to get involved in advocacy,   03:54 but I think you know, throughout my high school and university years, I always did the best I could to help others and help the kids, but I think my whole world changed because let's just go back a little bit. I was born with bit of vision. Got a whole whack of it when I was in my teens due to a cornea transplant. It changed my entire world, and I learned so much, did so much experience, so much. Then I lost it all in year 2004   04:29 due to a terrific retina detachment, detached in three places, and doctors could not save my vision. So it was at that time that I decided that I wanted to apply to the Canadian government for a job, and in doing so, I quickly realized that the websites were not accessible, the attitudes were not very good, because certain.   05:00 Departments did not really want to take the time to ensure that me as a vision impaired person, a highly qualified one with an MBA from McGill University. They did not want to, you know, help me take the exams in order to gain a Public Service Commission job with the Canadian governments. And I think it was at that time that I consciously decided that something needed to be done. So in year 2006   05:36 I consulted a human rights lawyer, and after discussing, you know, matters within she advised me that I had the perfect case for a charter challenge against the Canadian government to challenge them on their inaccessible and unusable websites. And there began my journey, I would say, in a really meaningful manner. And I say meaningful because it was a way for me to not just express myself, but to show others that something should be done and must be done if we as a community, as Canadians with disabilities, wanted to find different career paths, so I assembled a small team   06:33 of advocates and friends, and I think they're about, oh my gosh, at least four of us to start with The lawyer. We filed our papers, and of course, they try to stay our kids, but fail. And so between 2007   06:49 and 2009   06:50 it was a back and forth battle between me and the government and my lawyer   06:57 and the Canadian government hired an expert from the United States who was a lawyer, but not an accessibility expert, to challenge us, and I had one of the best accessibility experts of the day. Her name was Judah Trevor Rey. She's from Canada,   07:18 and so the government I know her. Oh, great, yes, wonderful, yeah, you couldn't have picked a better person. Oh, she was wonderful and very calm, very kind, very understanding. And between 2007 and 2009 we engaged in this back and forth battle. And many times this government, Canadian government, did their best to discredit me, both personally and professionally, and they challenged Utah quite a bit. But Bucha and I, we were able to withstand all the that they threw at us. We went to court, the lower Canadian court in 2010   08:03 we won the first round. The judge ordered the Canadian government to make all of their websites accessible,   08:11 despite the government trying to, you know, use their expert, the late Cynthia Waddell. I don't know if you know her, or knew her   08:22 to you know, thwart our efforts so we were successful. The judge ordered the government to make the websites accessible, but the government decided to take us to the Canadian Court of Appeal, and this case was heard in 2012   08:41 and we were again successful. So thereafter, the government realized that we were serious about, you know, wanting to bring about change. This case was observed worldwide, across North America, Britain, Europe, India, and for me personally, it was quite an experience, because I don't think I really understood the meaning of going to court. I so that was a five year process of doing my math. Yeah, I   09:20 I don't think I understood what I was getting into, and even when the government attacked me personally and professionally, I still didn't understand.   09:31 But I spent several nights really examining my conscience. Why was I doing this? For whom? For what? It was never for me. It was for the kids or the future.   09:43 And people may say, oh, yeah, right. Wasn't it for you? No, not necessarily. Because I wanted a better future for them. I wanted to help my community. So after that, in 2012   09:59 we.   10:00 Decided to soldier on, and you just and I went our separate ways, like Peter got busy with her own stuff, I got busy with mine. But then in 2015   10:11 I realized that something else needed to be done, because Canada did not have any sort of legislation like the US, like the UK, like Europe, they were one of the few developed countries that did not have any sort of legislation, disability rights legislation, or anything like that. So I decided again to form a team, and we went coast to coast, we elicited the assistance of several organizations, national organizations, business cnid, the   10:53 CCD, like Canadian Council of persons with disabilities and many others cross disabilities organizations. We lobbied hard, and I was very fortunate again to have you to part of the way,   11:11 because she was very, very busy with her own stuff. And I had David Lepofsky, an amazing lawyer who really worked so hard with me, and in 2019   11:27 legislation titled The accessible Canada Act was passed on July 19, 2019,   11:36 and congratulations. Thank you very much. So this is what has laid the foundation for me. Has not been easy, because   11:48 advocacy is not for the fate of heart, and it started to wear on me.   11:56 During this period, I also fought successful cases against the Greater Toronto Airport Authority over their inaccessible and unusable websites and services and other organizations I interacted with,   12:14 but I decided shortly after that victory, that I wanted to pull or push my own efforts, my own advocacy, in another direction, because it was getting too hard and it was wearing on me. It was being very, very stressful on me. So I made the conscious effort that I wanted to return to what I call my roots. This being that I wanted to work more closely with the kids. It took a few years to really, you know, hone my my commitment, to decide what I really wanted to do.   12:58 I relinquished the presidency of barrier free Canada, because I was the founder of barrier free Canada. This is the organization that started the campaign for an accessible Canada Act. So let's fast forward to today. Yeah, but along the way, I met Aaron Di Blasi, and Aaron is never tired of pushing me and advising me and showing me ways to achieve what I really want to achieve, and I do. Thank Aaron for this very, very much indeed. So I'd like to pause for just a moment let people know who Aaron is. Aaron De Blasi is   13:44 a publisher of several accessibility and assistive technology related publications. His company is called Mind vault solutions, so you can search for top tech tidbits, access information, news and I have recently been engaged with Aaron. He's helping me get organized and more impactful and effective. And I think you've worked with him a lot longer than I but I'm finding that he helps accelerate things and help helps me move forward more briskly   14:22 with what I'm trying to accomplish. And I think this is a great way to say it like he helps me move forward more brisi, and especially when I see the first words of any email he sends, it's Miss Donna, and I know he has something to tell me, right? So the two initiatives that we are engaged in together are the access Park store, where we have brought vendors and other sellers together to sell their stuff, whether it's technology or anything that.   15:00 They want to sell, and it's being advertised through the accessibility information, news and the top tech tidbits. But most recently, we decided to get together on another project, and it's called the vision Tech Academy.   15:20 And this all came about because of a promise I made to the late John Connor Lee's. John was very, very involved with Apple. He was a beta tester. He was a teacher, tutor, a trainer. He had a website called Matt for the blind, and we have started to get involved in developing the vision Tech Academy, where we would bring users, not certainly, sorry, not users educators, together with students. But a month before, or shortly after we started, he wrote to me, saying that we had to withdraw from the project, because he was diagnosed with cancer, and he was at stage four, so I made him a promise that I could do whatever I think, because John was my mentor, my teacher, my friend, my advisor. Didn't matter if we disagreed on which coffee team we supported. John loved the islanders. I love the Montreal Canadiens, but John took the time to listen and to guide and he was never afraid or never shy to share his political views with me as well. So I lost someone really important in my life, and I thought I would I made him this promise, and here we are today. And Aaron and another friend of mine, Leo Bissonnette, he lives in Montreal, we are partnering together, partnering together, to ensure that John's legacy lives on. And this is where I'm at today. I'm also involved in something called transitioning to a new world, where I am teaching kids who are prepared preparing to leave high school, and the young adults teaching them how to make themselves indispensable assets to those companies who need to attract the attention of seniors and persons with disabilities, because these are their bread and butter customers. And I am helping.   17:38 There are two courses that I'm giving   17:41 are promoting and teaching. One is called advocacy, 101 and the other one is called entrepreneurship, 101   17:51 and these two courses will help participants to become more confident and independent and show them ways to advocate for themselves and for others, more powerful and more effectively. So these are the two projects that I'm presently engaged in, the transitioning to a new world. Is that something you're doing with young people in person? Is it virtual? Is   18:21 recorded. They watch what form does that take, virtually right now. And hopefully, if I can obtain, or   18:33 if I can get funding to help me out, I would like to put these courses online, and I would like to do the face to face route as well. I have already had experience with Doctor Alan chase of the I retreat organization. I participated in his camp last year, and he has invited me back   18:58 to do the same this year. So and I've had several interviews with people across Canada and the United States. So I'm really, really hoping that this will take off. And finally, in addition, in order to sort of support my funding, I am selling my pottery creations on the access Park store and my associates and I are also planning events to raise funds in support of the transitioning to a new world initiative. So that's where I'm at today. Okay, and access Park, let's talk about it sounds like it's a marketplace. Is it specifically for disability owned businesses or products and services that are helpful for inclusion of people with disabilities or combination? Tell, tell. Tell us more about access Park.   19:58 I am hoping.   25:00 If educators take advantage of this, they sign up. They, you know, we have a directory of where people can come to find different types of educators. Educators can either, you know, just sign up by having the first name, last name, email address and a URL, or they could go into more detail through their premium profile, where they give a biography of themselves and the courses that they offer. And I'm really and again, these educators are focused on what   25:34 I think they're focused on, courses, technology, courses that they can give to bridge the gap between, you know, persons with disabilities needing to learn more and being able to be more independent. That's what we're hoping for.   25:55 So it could be anything that the technology wise, that they would be able to teach and train and tutor. Okay,   26:07 so turning to challenges, you've mentioned funding and fundraising and resources a couple of times, yeah, so I'd appreciate you talking a little bit more about your thinking of how   26:22 that's going, and then any, any other you mentioned, marketing, yes. So you're, you're running three startups here simultaneously, which   26:32 is a lot, a lot on one person's plate. But as you plan success for each of the three, what, what do you see as the challenges that you're going to need to tackle?   26:45 I think a lot of it would be like marketing, letting people know that these three initiatives are out there. A lot of it has to do, you know, like works with by word of mouth, but with whom you know and you know, like working to convince them that, hey, these are worthwhile initiatives. These are going to benefit persons with disabilities. The persons with disabilities are your bread and butter, customers of today and the future. The kids are important. We need to make it better than possible for our kids in the future. So we need to find, or I need to find funding to continue my efforts.   27:34 And that is the challenge. And I know Aaron is really, you know, given me a lot of great ideas for the vision Tech Academy. I'm just hoping that this takes off, and I'm I'm very confident that it will take off.   27:51 Far as funding goes. I'm not familiar with Canada, of course, in the United States, the 501 c3 nonprofit where people can make a donation and   28:01 put a tax deduction on on their tax return. And then, of course, the for profit side, there's investors, and there's small business grants and things like that. So what? What type of and then there's crowdfunding, like Kickstarter for creative endeavors and GoFundMe and what, what are your   28:23 structures, as far as the type of funding you're seeking,   28:28 the nature, like   28:32 in Canada, it is awfully, awfully, awfully difficult to find funding. In the US, it seems to be a lot easier, so I'm putting most of my eggs in the US basket. Okay,   28:48 we've not talked about GoFundMe or crowdfunding. I mean, Aaron and I are hoping to use other methods to start with, but we're quite open to any suggestions. I'm not a marketing person. Aaron, is more of it than I am, right? So we're hoping, I'm praying, that we can attract some good influence from people who are willing to help, you know, fund this or market this in any way that they can.   29:22 Um, so this is the part of the podcast where we're going to ask for help.   29:29 What   29:30 people listening if they want to help move things forward? Access Park. I assume you're looking for businesses who want to offer their products and services. You're looking for customers. So Tell, tell us   29:43 to those listening to this recording,   29:48 if they're interested in getting engaged in access Park, what, what? What type of participation are you looking for? And how do people get and go get in touch with you. So we're looking to.   30:00 Vendors to sell their products on ancestr, and we have a ready made audience of over at least 30,000   30:12 people who read the aim news every week and top tech tidbits.   30:19 We do a lot of media releases as well. So we're hoping that vendors would see an advantage to being part of the access Park marketplace. We're hoping that customers would be able to say, Hey, this is a more accessible and usable website. I'm going to come here to buy my stuff. So it's a two pronged effort, both customers and vendors. And we've got to advertise more, because you just can't sit there and say, you know, people will read the ads every week. It's much more than that. So that's what the access Park thing is all about. Okay, and then transitioning into a new world. Are you primarily looking for? You mentioned camps, you mentioned schools? Are you primarily looking for organizations? Yes, who work with with blind youth, yes, primarily those. I have a meeting tomorrow with the American Printing House with the blind, and I'm really hoping that we would team up so that I can offer my courses. I'm hoping that the I retreat organization can help me to propel my efforts to other organizations and agencies. But the difficulty here is that a lot of these organizations and agencies are waiting for funding themselves right from other sources, so that they can pay me to do it right. So that is a difficulty with the transitioning to a new world initiative.   32:08 In the case of vision Tech Academy, it's all about more marketing, more advertising, more convincing of educators to place their premium profiles on our website, and you know, like advertise your own services to students. So you're looking for educators, trainers who focus on training around accessibility and assistive technology, who want to reach students right and looking for students who want to connect with, yeah, people who provide them training, correct, yeah,   32:48 wow, you're a busy bee. Oh, I gotta stop sometime, eh.   32:54 Well, please don't   32:56 well I want, I just want to be done. Well, I do want to thank you sir for having played a part in my obtaining my scholarship from the apex company.   33:08 I am really, really, really looking forward to this cyber security and thank you very much for having played a part.   33:17 Yes. So what Don is referencing is a training program to launch blind people into cyber security careers. I'm very involved with the apex program. And there is a website, www, dot the apex, A, P, E, X program.com,   33:35 and there's an inquiry form, if you are an employer, a Voc Rehab person, a blind person thinking about a cybersecurity career, please fill out that inquiry format, www, dot the apex program.com,   33:50 and Donna. How can people best get in touch with you if they would like to get engaged in one two or three of your startup endeavors? Well, there are two ways. My personal email address is Donna John, d o n, m, A J, O, D, H, A [email protected],   34:14 or my company's name, which is Donna John at Sterling creations.ca,   34:21 so again, it's d o n, m, a, J, O, D, H, A N, at, S T, E, R, L, I N, G, relations with an S C, R, E, A T, I O N, S dot, C, A,   34:37 C, A, for Canada, yes, Sir. And if you'd like to get in touch with me, Kirk Adams, at Dr, Kirk adams.com, that's d r Kirk Adams, K I R K A, D A, M, S at d r k, i r k, A, D K, N, s.com,   34:56 or on LinkedIn. Donna, this. Uh.   35:00 Time flew by. It's great to talk with you again and again. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Thank you for returning the favor and joining me and giving me such great time and attention today. I really appreciate it. I'm excited to be working with you in various ways on your projects, and let's make this an impactful 2025 shall we? We shall and I do. Thank you sir for having me on. And I enjoyed interviewing you too, and I think it's an honor and a privilege to be working with you. Thank you very much. Fabulous. All right, thank you everyone. Have a great day. Thank   35:42 you for listening. To podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a [email protected]   35:55 together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact. You.

00:00 Music.   00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   00:37 hello everybody. This is Dr Kirk Adams, welcome to my monthly live streamed webinar. Supercharge your bottom line through disability inclusion and today we we have a very unique opportunity to learn about a new AI driven solution for blind people such as myself to have an easier time of it. In E commerce, we're going to talk to Patrick long, co founder of inno search, in a few minutes. But Patrick, if you could say hi and give people just the sound of your voice and your title and where are you calling from   01:20 everybody? My name is Patrick. I'm the CEO and co founder of inno search. Ai, a company building accessible solutions for the blind and visually impaired. We're based in San Francisco, and very happy to be on the show today with Dr Kirk, and happy to share about what we're working on Great and Patrick is not we're not those of us who can see not seeing Patrick today. You may have been watching the news this week and about the bomb cyclone and all the storms here on the West Coast. We had our chair of it here in Seattle two nights ago, Patrick's on the San Francisco Bay area, so they're having some weather disruptions. So he's on his phone. Thank you for making it happen, Patrick,   02:12 just briefly before I before I turn, turn, turn it over to you, Patrick, to get your story. For those of you listening viewing who don't know me again. I'm Dr Kirk Adams. I am a blind person. Have been since I was five years old when both of my retinas detached and I became a blind child.   02:36 Basically overnight, I went to the Oregon State School for the Blind, first, second and third grade and learn to read and write Braille very, very fluently, travel with confidence with a white cane and type on a typewriter, so that when my skills were sufficiently strong, I could   02:59 join my brothers and sisters and neighbors in public school. So in fourth grade, I started public school in Silverton, Oregon.   03:08 I was always the only blind student of all of my schooling, from fourth grade through my PhD,   03:16 I   03:18 grew up in small towns in the Pacific Northwest. I was given some gifts as a 678, year old attending the school for the blind, I was given the blindest skills   03:32 that have allowed me to operate efficiently in the world of working and scholarship and life. I was given high expectations from my family and the school. A lot of kids, a lot of young kids with disabilities,   03:49 aren't given that gift of high expectations. And sometimes if we have low expectations, they can become internalized. And I was also given just a strong internal locus of control, which means I really felt in my bones that I could make my way in the world. I could solve problems, I could figure out how to get things done, and   04:12 that's such an important part of being able to thrive as a person with a disability in our society. So I'm grateful for those gifts that were given to me.   04:26 Progressing through the elementary, middle school, high school and small towns, I experienced a lot of social isolation, especially in the middle school and high school years where I grew up, when kids turned 16, they got a driver's license and they got a job of some kind, and that was not happening for me.   04:50 Then college was was a very, very different story. I was fortunate enough to be given a full scholarship to a small.   05:00 All liberal arts school, Whitman College and Walla. Walla through a foundation called the Jesse Ridley foundation that support supports blind students in college.   05:11 And again, a gift was given to me, which I appreciate immensely. Graduated   05:19 cum laude, phi, beta, kappa, four point my major, which was economics, and then face the barriers to employment that so many of us with significant disabilities face, as only 35% of us are in the workforce. So many, many twists and twists and turns later, after 10 years in banking and finance, I entered the nonprofit sector as a fundraising professional development officer. My first nonprofit job was a development officer for the Seattle Public Library Foundation raising money for the state talking book and Braille library. And then from there, moved into the nonprofit sector,   06:05 became the president CEO of the Lighthouse for the Blind here in Seattle, was recruited to join the board of trustees of the American Foundation for the Blind, which is Helen Keller's station, and was given, given an opportunity to step into that leadership, President, CEO role of May of 2016   06:27 moved from our cozy neighborhood here in Seattle to Brooklyn and worked in Manhattan, the AFB offices right next to Madison Square Garden, right above Penn Station, and subsequently moved to the Washington, Washington, DC area. So had amazing experiences living in New York and Arlington, Virginia, and then returned home to Seattle during the pandemic.   06:56 After six years with the American Foundation for the Blind, I had largely accomplished what I'd set out to do, which was to reorganize, restructure and bring the organization back to financial sustainability. And I decided there was time for a change. At the end of June 2022   07:19 my very rewarding time at AFB came to an end, and as AFB had announced I was leaving, I was contacted by a number of organizations and people I done impactful good projects work with, asking if I was available to help on various initiatives. And so I think de facto, became a consultant,   07:47 and I set up my consulting practice. My company is called innovative impact LLC. There is a website innovative impact dot consulting, and I've mostly focused on employment and working with companies to help them accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in their workforce, and really the bringing the demand side and supply side together, as employers are In competition for talent and needing to bring in   08:23 talented, dedicated, motivated employees who will help their organizations move forward. And then, with only 35% of us in the workforce, there's this untapped pool of individuals with disabilities who've developed a lot of really unique strengths. And as we look at how people develop strengths, it is through overcoming increasingly difficult challenges,   08:50 Grant grand masters and chess, world class musicians and athletes, they all get there by   08:58 a lot of hard work and dedication and setting themselves increasingly difficult challenges and overcoming them.   09:05 And as people with disabilities making our way through the social, built and digital environments that were built   09:17 primarily by non disabled people for non disabled people, we face a lot of challenges, and as we grow older and take on more and more complex aspects of life, those challenges become increasingly more difficult, so   09:33 we're able to develop a lot of lot of skills and strengths   09:38 that fit   09:39 what employers are looking for So resilience and perseverance and grit, creative problem solving, ability to analyze and manage risk, ability to work in diverse teams, good communication skills and so my pleasure is ringing.   10:00 Uh, finding employers who are open to being innovative and forward thinking and how they address their need for talent, and having conversations about intentionally bringing people with disabilities into their workforce, then then connecting them   10:22 with those resources that are out there. Our vocational rehabilitation system, every state has vocational rehabilitation agencies that are funded by the federal government, by the Department of Education. They have a $4 billion annual budget. They have 1000s of staff, lots lots of dollars and lots of individuals that are serving who have Each has an individual plan for employment. So there, there's a pool of of people ready and seek, actively seeking work.   10:55 There are other companies,   10:58 particularly those affiliated with the association called disability, and companies that have made commitments to hiring people with disabilities. There are   11:10 in any any city of any size, there are   11:14 nonprofits that focus on supporting people with disabilities. Many of them focus on employment. And then there are organized groups of people with disabilities on the blindness field, National Federation of the Blind, American Council of the Blind. So my, again, my pleasure, is to find those employers who want to intentionally include people with disabilities, then connecting them with those resources, the state, the government, the government, the corporate, the nonprofit, the community, those are the four stakeholder groups that need to come together in order to make anything really transformational happen. So that's, that's what I really, really enjoy doing, is connecting those dots at the same time,   12:01 when I was at the American Foundation for the Blind, I would I would be contacted pretty regularly by innovative people technology, folks who had had an idea or thought about something they thought would be really helpful for People who are blind, and these are usually startup companies, and they were typically looking for capital. So they want, wanted to know if AFB could invest or provide loans or some way support them financially. And that was not something we did.   12:38 So I was able to pretty regularly say, appreciate what you're doing. This sounds super interesting, but that's not something we do.   12:50 I will say some of the ideas were indeed super interesting. Some I thought were trying to solve a problem that a non disabled person might think was a big problem for us, but really isn't.   13:06 Some, some of the some of the ideas, were trying to solve problems that had already been solved. But there were also some very unique, unique ideas,   13:18 as I moved into the consulting space where I have the flexibility to really focus on whatever I want to focus on. I continue to be contacted and connected with entrepreneurs and really innovative, creative people putting together solutions for life,   13:38 obstacles and barriers for people with disabilities, and I have   13:44 really learned a lot about how these ecosystems work.   13:50 I've raised many millions of dollars over my career, primarily philanthropic. So I led the   13:59 American Foundation for the Blind and the Lighthouse for the Blind, Inc, and raise money for those 501, c3, organizations through corporate foundation grants and major gifts, plan gifts and people's wills and   14:13 individual donors. And   14:17 I had a lot of experience with that,   14:20 but raising capital   14:23 in a for profit environment is really new to me, so I I've connected with with some investors. I've been involved in some crowd funding situations where companies sought to give individuals opportunities to buy into the company. It's with small dollar amounts. I've   14:44 been involved as an advisor to an incubator   14:51 that focuses on disability owned startups, and then I've been able to become an advisor to   14:59 uh.   15:00 A small number of select startup ventures   15:06 that I'm very excited about that I think fill a real need. And innosearch is one of those. I'm going to turn it over to Patrick in a in a few minutes, and ask him to tell us about his personal journey, where he's been, where, how he got to where he is today, and where he's hoping, planning, tending to go   15:29 within a search.   15:32 But   15:35 interestingly enough, I was contacted via LinkedIn   15:39 in February or March, and I'm link on my on LinkedIn every day, so you can also find me there Kirk Adams PhD.   15:48 But I was contacted. I was contacted by   15:53 a   15:55 app development company based in   16:00 the UK,   16:02 Switzerland, and they were a shop that developed apps. They're for profit business entrepreneurs, and they had found me on LinkedIn, and they asked if I would be interested in talking with them   16:16 about apps that I felt could be very useful to people who are blind. So we had several aviation sessions, hour long sessions, and the first thing I said to them was, if you can figure out a way to simplify and standardize e commerce for people who are blind,   16:37 because as we want to do what everyone in our society seems to want to do, which is to shop with ease and have things delivered to us and have lots of choices and go to the E commerce sites that provide those services we find as blind people. It's not that easy. It's not that simple. The sites are always changing. Many accessibility issues.   17:06 The search functions are different, the checkout processes, the shopping carts or shopping bags, so   17:15 not a walk in the park to successfully navigate e commerce as a person who's blind who uses assistive technology.   17:26 What I primarily use is Jaws, Job Access with speech, screen reading software my PC and an iPhone with VoiceOver.   17:36 And then I guess about two months ago, I was connected with Patrick, who's with us today, and he and his partner, Brian, founded a company called inno search, and they are doing exactly what I identified as a primary need for a solution for people who are blind. So I was so excited but they told me what they were doing, and I told them that little story that, yes, I had had, in fact, identified this as a great need. I'm glad someone is addressing it and working with Patrick and Brian now as an advisor for a couple of months. I know they're totally dedicated to making this work. They're putting their heart, soul into in a search to make e commerce and other web based activities   18:33 accessible, frictionless and fun. People are blind, so with that, Patrick, I would love to ask you to tell us a little bit about your journey, what brought you to the spot you are now with innosearch, on the on the cusp of greatness. You have users. I think you told me that users have doubled over the last month, and you're generating revenue, you're in addition to e commerce, you're adding other great services. And would love, love to hear about the past president, present and future of inno search?   19:13 Sure. Yeah. So thanks so much, Dr Kirk for the introduction, and obviously, thanks so much for the help. Over the past couple of months, it's been really wonderful to be able to speak with you on a weekly basis and just share what we're working on,   19:31 issues and also successes that we've been having. So yeah, thanks so much for doing that.   19:39 About myself, personally, I was born and raised   19:45 in the Bay Area. Actually grew up in Fremont, California, attended Mission San Jose High School.   19:53 Yeah, I was very competitive High School, a lot of competition for grades. And attended UC Berkeley.   20:00 Me for economics so interesting we were we both studied the same thing economics.   20:08 Was always fascinated with how the business world worked, and also was always an entrepreneur at heart. Always was in my dorm room, thinking of new ideas, new ways to address markets that you know seem to have lots, lots of opportunity. So I studied economics and also got my CPA at Ernst and Young I was doing finance and accounting for a number of years before I started dabbling, dabbling into entrepreneurship. My first company, we built $100 million blockchain startup.   20:46 We're doing peer to peer lending, one of the first smart contract lending platforms on Ethereum at that time. And after that company wound down in 2020   20:59 we took a break, and that's when I was introduced to Brian through a few mutual friends, and we were just   21:09 playing around with the latest in AI technologies. I think this was when chat GPT started to take off, and a lot of this large language model   21:21 AI technologies came, came to, you know, really mature, right? And I think that was when we were really brainstorming how we could leverage   21:32 such a cutting edge technology to help, you know, people in need, right? I was a social entrepreneur in the past.   21:40 You know, the peer to peer lending platform that I had built, you know, we distributed it to folks in India, to folks in Africa, folks in South America, to do community based lending. So I was really resonated with the social impact space and ways to use, you know, new, cutting edge technology to improve the lives   22:03 of others. So we did a lot of research and really came across. We tried a lot of different ideas, but after actually doing some user studies and talking with early people who tested out our product, folks with disabilities, in particular those who are blind and visually impaired really resonated with what we had built, right? They said, You know, this is something they've never seen before, something like shopping on Amazon to find something as simple as like tennis balls could take them hours on end, right? So, you know, with this AI solution, they can just quickly search for a product, learn about a product right, and then make the purchase. So, you know, seeing that organic feedback right from the community really gave us a strong signal that there was a really strong need. And you know, we potentially could build something to address that. And obviously that sort of was the initial spark, right? And once we dug deeper, right through like conversations with Dr Kirk, or conversations with lots of other folks in the   23:14 blind and visually impaired community, talking about a lot of nonprofits, you know, and every day now, actually, we get a lot of customer feedback that's very positive, right? We probably five to 10   23:27 customer like testimonials every, every day, they just email us, telling them how, telling us how great of an experience they're having. That's just a further testament that I think we're on to something that's super exciting. And when we hear that, you know, maybe somebody has never done uh, Christmas shopping independently before, and now they're able to finally do it within a search that really warms my heart, and, yeah, it gives us the fuel to keep, to keep, uh, grinding on this. So,   23:57 yeah, I, you know, I don't want to bore you with the details, but basically, we know digital accessibility is like a really big problem. A lot of websites today are not accessible, and it's very expensive to deal with this, right? You You can hire sighted help, right, but that could be hundreds of dollars an hour, right? And   24:20 you know, like Dr Kirk mentioned, a lot of the blind, visually impaired people, they don't have   24:27 a job, right? They rely on disability aid, so typically, lower income, and like paying, you know, for somebody to help you all the time just isn't financially feasible, right? So that's why we think AI could be a great solution, because it's obviously always on very patient with you, and the cost is just a small fraction right of that side of health.   24:51 So thus far, we've actually built e commerce platform that is very simple, very compatible with all the screen readers.   25:00 Search, but they're using people. How do people find?   25:04 Oh, yeah, if you go to no search, I N, N, O, S, E, A, R, C, H, dot, a, i, you can access the platform on any web browser, mobile phone, tablet, we're all there.   25:21 Yep, that's right,   25:23 yeah. So we launched June of 2024,   25:26 now we're operating in four countries, the United States, UK, Canada and Australia. It's a very simple, intuitive screen reader, friendly, fully accessible experience. You can browse billions of products on innosearch from over 500,000 retailers, anything from your Amazons, Walmarts, targets of the world you can find on innosearch You can find the best possible price at each retailer across the web. We guarantee free shipping and free return for all purchases. So yeah, it's truly a new experience. I think we've gotten lots of great feedback, so definitely encourage you to try. There's also an AI component that you can chat with. It can provide product details, give you review summaries, do the product research for you, and also we provide AI generated image descriptions. If you're trying to buy some fashion items and you're not sure what they look like because the alt text isn't properly generated. Our AI can do it for you on the fly.   26:32 In the upcoming future, we're having flight and hotel booking. The flight is actually live already, so give it a try, and in the near future, we plan to release a fully voice operated commands. So whether or not you are,   26:49 you know, proficient or not, at your screen reader, right, you can just talk to innosearch, and innosearch can reply back with you know, different actions and also answer any product questions that you might have. So it's been really exciting. The last few months have been we've been seeing explosive growth. Sales are on track to double this month from prior month, I think we're getting to about   27:14 180,000   27:16 recurring revenue, and the users has   27:21 also been growing really significantly. I think we're over 1100   27:26 paid users now. So yeah, it's been very exciting. People keep coming back. They make multiple purchases. And last few days ago, we actually had a trivia night where we invited all our   27:40 search customers, I must say, whoever, whoever put those trivia questions together. The Science category was tough.   27:52 Yeah, that was by design as trying to stump some people. We had some easy ones as well. Oh, you stumped me.   28:01 I me, so how you said 1100 users to is there a cost to use in a search?   28:09 No, so no search, there's no cost. You can just create an account and start shopping. We don't charge subscription. And yeah, we it's there's no cost to the user. No, there's no cost to the user. It's completely free to use, create an account and place an order. So when you're saying paying users, that means 1100 people have used the site to purchase something. Yeah, that's right, from somebody somewhere. Okay, yeah, good. Well, I'm really curious about you and Brian. I know he's he's not available to be with us today, but   28:43 he's a very humble person. And I didn't realize until I mentioned it the other day that he has a PhD in AI. And how did you two connected? Yeah, we met some by some mutual friends. So my previous co founder and I actually   29:03 were in the same friends group, and so through some introductions, we just met each other. And he also plays badminton. I play badminton as well. So yeah, I mean, we just sort of hit it off and realize that we have some chemistry when working on different business ideas together, and he his background actually is in big tech. So he's worked at Google, meta and Walmart for many years, and search and AI, and so he sort of wanted a startup experience, right? He craves, sort of being able to move quickly. I think that's the big difference, right? When working with, you know, 10s of 1000s of people at a major Fortune, 500 company. The decision making is slow, right? And so he always wanted to see what it was like to work at a startup. And so, yeah, that's why we decided to team up together. I think there's a good mix more of like your.   30:00 A startup guy the law startups, and he is more of a big company   30:06 expertise, right? So he so, yeah, they would find a good, good chemistry when working together, yeah, well, the the AI part of inno search, AI is legit, for sure. Though, every time I talk to Brian, I just get a great, greater and greater sense of his, the depth of his knowledge and expertise with artificial intelligence. It's very impressive. So as far as now, you're not a blind person, you're not you're not a native user   30:37 of assistive technologies, but you are jumping in with both feet on the blindness community. You mentioned talking to lots and lots of people and organizations as you formed in a search, as far as you as far as you understand what's different,   30:56 what's what? How is the experience different for people using in a search.ai from what we're typically exposed to when we   31:06 try to operate in the E commerce environment.   31:09 Yeah. So the analogy I like to use is, when using a site like Amazon, it's very complicated and it has a lot of details, right, similar to like a college textbook. When you flip through a college textbook, there's a lot of words, a lot of descriptions, right? A lot of detail,   31:30 but oftentimes to make your decision, or when browsing through items, especially if you're blind, you can't have your screen reader go through every single item, right? It's cumbersome, and, as a lot of users have reported, takes a lot of time. So our innovation is we use AI and all this other technology, scraping technology, to extract the core meaning   31:56 from Amazon or Best Buy whatever, and we give you an experience this a lot more simple to the point. And we also have an AI AI chat bot that has already been trained, and all that information from your Amazon or Best Buy whatever, and that can answer exactly what you need, so you don't have to go through, you know, all that complex college textbook work, right? You can just simplify it to something like a children's book, so you can learn quickly. And of course, if you need more information, you can dig deeper into that using the AI, right, and then make your product choice. I think that's the big value add   32:36 for in research as it compared to other e commerce sites.   32:41 Well, you had mentioned e commerce is up and running. You have 1100   32:47 blind people who've used it so far. You've just added   32:53 booking airline flights. I think we were on the phone together where you said we had our first person book a flight. So that's very recent, and then hotels come next, and I know you are seeking investors, and you're giving   33:09 people opportunity to become shareholders in the company. So could you talk a little bit about the amount of funding you're seeking and what the use of funds will be. How will you use and leverage participation by investors of taking in a search to where you think it could go?   33:33 Yeah, sure. So we're seeking to raise 500,000   33:37 from value added angels   33:42 and primarily the use of funds would be spent on marketing. It's expensive to go to a lot of conferences and get the word out, also hiring engineers to make the product more robust, more testing, and finally, customer support. We have a lot of emails that come through. A lot of folks ask us for, you know, various debugging issues or whatever. So making sure we have funding to cover all of those   34:11 would be important,   34:13 but we're not dependent on that funding like right now. Brian and I, we've had prior successes, so we're okay continuing to fund the business, as long as it continues to grow. So I see the external money as a way to accelerate what we're already doing. But as is the current trajectory, you know, we I think we can break even within six to 12 months, right? As long as we keep growing, doubling our user account, getting the word out there, I think we'll be still very healthy, even without outside funding. Okay, so So you you'd happily talk to anyone interested in investing, but also for anyone listening who is blind and visually or visually impaired and uses assistive technology, screen reading software and.   35:00 Voiceover talk back on a smartphone, or if you have a family member or friend or a classmate,   35:08 encourage them to try, you know, search.ai   35:11 I went to the site. I saw deals.   35:18 I saw coupons. I saw, like Patrick mentioned, a very straightforward, easy to use platform that was really unlike anything else I encountered   35:34 going to e commerce sites. So kudos to you, Patrick and Brian,   35:42 if people want to get in touch with you to learn more,   35:47 we we've given the web. We know it's in a search.ai.   35:51 But if, if people would like to set up time to to really dig, dig deep with you. Or Brian, what's the best way for people to get in touch? Yeah. So we, I think I would encourage you just to try the platform first, right? Just going on innosearch.ai.   36:08 You know, it's E commerce site. You can buy anything from, you know, a new flat screen TV to a computer to even groceries. So, yeah, I encourage you to give it a try. But if you'd want to connect and speak with us personally. We're definitely love to hear your feedback, get your thoughts. We've actually connected with, I think, close to 100 of our users already just setting up time, one on ones, 30 minutes to chat and for your feedback, we're happy to give you some gift cards on inno search as well. But you can contact us through the contact form on the site, or you can just email info, I n, f, O at no search.ai, and it goes straight to both of our inboxes. So we're happy to chat with you there. Great in a info at inno search, which is I N, N, O, S, E, A, R, C, H, dot, a, i, Yep, that's right. And for me, I have a website, www.dr,   37:09 Kirk adams.com,   37:12 that is my good way to contact me, for those of you interested in talking about employing people with disabilities.   37:23 Innovative impact. Dot consulting is the site where I do that type of work. I'm also on LinkedIn, as is Patrick.   37:36 Final thoughts,   37:39 yeah. I mean, we're definitely open to collaborating with any and all people. I found the blind, visually impaired community super   37:51 welcoming. We've met dr Kirk. He's been, again, such a great help. Super nice, super accommodating. We've also worked with folks like Sam sevi from the blind life, or Carrie Morales from Carrie on accessibility, Steven Scott from double tap, Brian Clark from first aid for the blind, just tons of folks that have just been so welcoming and so   38:17 excited for what we're building and also giving us lots of great feedback. So for anybody that really likes what they've seen, or, you know, likes the direction we're headed, we would love to have a conversation and try to find a way how we might be able to help one another, because I think there's a really big need here, right? And, yeah, this is a great opportunity for us all, and I want to, I want to thank you and congratulate you for being so proactive and gathering data from people who are blind and visually impaired, talking to people who are blind and visually impaired, about the needs, about the barriers, about the issues people face of getting that that   39:03 lived experience of disability into the mix from the beginning.   39:07 Again, as I mentioned before, I've been contacted   39:12 quite a bit by people who had thoughts about innovations that could support people with disabilities, people who are blind, and sometimes they had not talked to any blind people. They had an idea.   39:25 They thought it could be helpful.   39:28 They didn't take the time or make the effort that you and you and Brian are have made it are continuing to make, to really understand what the lived experience is and how your solution in a in a search shot AI can really do the best job for supporting people,   39:48 accelerating our inclusion into this very important aspect of life in our society, which is   39:57 doing business online. So how.   40:00 Pass off to you and Brian for your approach,   40:03 yeah, and we will continue to do that. And Brian and I, we've had a lot of experience building product, and we know, you know, as innovators, as entrepreneurs, if you build something you know in your basement, and just speak out every once in a while, hoping that your users will like it. That's, yeah, that's not gonna work, right? I can't, I can't just sit there and use my imagination, right? Especially the fact that I'm not buying visually impaired myself. It's gonna be really difficult and possible, right? So that's definitely in our DNA, and we will continue to outreach and talk with you guys, wonderful. Well, thank you, Patrick, for being here. Thanks for making it work, even though your internet is disrupted by the wild storms here on the West Coast of the United States. And everybody go to innosearch.ai. And check it out. And December, there will be no monthly live stream webinar. I am going to take some time away to refresh and rejuvenate. And of course, we have our your end of December holidays, so we'll see you the last Thursday in January for the next episode of supercharge. Your bottom line through Disability Inclusion. Again, it's Dr Kirk Adams, thanks everybody for watching and listening. Take good care. Thank you, Patrick.   41:35 Thanks so much. Thanks, Dr Kirk.   41:38 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a [email protected]   41:50 Kirk adams.com together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time. Keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, Dr. Kirk Adams and his guest, Jeremy Grandstaff, dive into a powerful discussion on disability inclusion and its transformative impact on businesses. Broadcasting from his Seattle home office, Dr. Adams begins with an intimate account of his personal journey — from losing his sight at age five to becoming a leading advocate for accessibility. His early experiences, from mastering Braille to being the only blind student in mainstream education, laid the foundation for his resilience and passion for inclusion. But this episode isn't just about Dr. Adams.   TRANSCRIPT   00:00 Music.   00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   00:37 hello, everybody. This is Dr Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in sunny Seattle, Washington. And welcome to my monthly live streamed webinar. Supercharge your bottom line through disability inclusion. And as you know, every month I have a wonderful guest host. This month, it is Jeremy grand staff, you'll hear more, a lot more from Jeremy in a bit, but Jeremy, could you please say hello?   01:07 Well, hello, Dr Kirk, it's such an honor to be with you and and to be part of your space. I just appreciate such a great opportunity to collaborate with you on many levels, but this is definitely one of the highlights of my week. So thank you for having me on great and I'm going to, I'm going to give you a little bit of background about me, in case you don't know me yet, and I'll keep it brief, I promise. And then we'll, we'll talk to Jeremy at some length   01:39 about disability inclusion, employment of people who are blind, the importance of accessibility, and his very interesting life story as well. And then we'll let you know how you can get in touch with me, how you can get in touch with Jeremy, and we'll open it up for any questions, comments, any of you may have who are joined with us here live today. You're watching the recording. We'll let you know how to get in touch with us. So again, I'm Dr KURT ADAMS. I am a blind person. Have been since age five, when my retins Both detached. I was in kindergarten and I went to a school for blind children, State of Oregon, Oregon State School for the Blind. First, second, third grade had a wonderful teacher named Mrs. Summers who taught me how to read Braille, which opened up my world and write Braille. Then I had a great O and M instructor, Mr. Pearson, who taught me how to travel confidently and independently with a long white cane. Wasn't it wasn't very long when I was six years old, but I was, I was using a cane and then learned how to type on a typewriter. Today, it would be called keyboarding, but the model then   02:57 blind kids and deaf kids went to state residential schools primarily and learn the skills of disability to the point where we could then go to public school in our hometown, our neighborhood. So I started that in fourth grade, went all the way on through school, lived in small towns here in the Pacific Northwest, was always the only blind student in all of my classes after I left the school for the blind so through through elementary, middle school, high school, college masters, PhD, always the only blind person. So I've had that experience. Also had the experience of graduating from college with great academic credentials, phi, beta, kappa, cum laude, four point by econ degree, then running into those barriers to employment that so many of us significant disabilities face. I've had that experience also through many twists, through many twists and turns.   04:01 Became the president and CEO of the Lighthouse for the Blind here in Seattle, the social enterprise employing about 250 people who are blind and deaf blind, and a variety of businesses, including aerospace manufacturing, making parts for all the Boeing aircraft later was privileged to step into that same president and CE role at the American Foundation for the Blind, which is the most iconic organization in the blindness field. Helen Keller was the brand ambassador there for 45 years. And when I moved from Seattle to New York, and we're in those offices at AFB, I could walk down the hall and sit at Helen Keller's desk, play with her typewriter if I ever needed a shot of inspiration. So I've, I've had the opportunity to be a frustrated person with a disability seeking employment, an opportunity.   05:00 To be a successfully employed person with a disability in corporate America. I was in banking and finance for 10 years, and then an opportunity to be the employer of   05:12 hundreds of people who are blind and deaf blind. And so I have, I have good 360 degree views of employment for people who are blind, and I formalized that experience by pursuing and earning a PhD in leadership and change through Antioch University. And my scholarly focus was on employment of people who are blind. My dissertation is called journeys through rough country, an ethnographic study of blind adults successfully employed in American corporations. And no, I just, I just had it brailled and hard copy Braille. I've had the electronic file since 2019 when I completed but I just started rereading it, and it's pretty good. I'm pretty I'm pretty happy with the first 25 pages I've read this week.   06:10 I set up a consulting practice a little over two years ago when I made the change from leading the American Foundation for the Blind, relocated from the Washington, DC area back to Seattle, very much driven by my   06:27 commitment to family. My wife and I are joyous grandparents. We have a 232,   06:34 month old grandson, eight month old granddaughter. They live a mile away from us here in Seattle. So quite, quite a lifestyle change happened a couple of years ago, I set up a consulting practice, primarily to work with companies who are interested in winning the fierce competition for talent by expanding their thinking around diversity, equity and inclusion, to embrace intentional employment of people with disabilities, in particular people who are blind, and having those conversations about the fact that only 35% of us significant disabilities are in the workforce, there are many people who are eager to work, looking for those opportunities, have pursued education and training and may not have had the chance to get that foot on the career ladder, and we talk about how people develop talent and skills, and that we develop mastery through overcoming challenges and the lived experience of disability gives us ample opportunity to face and overcome challenges on a very regular basis, which leads to development of resilience and perseverance, creative problem solving,   07:57 the ability to analyze and manage risk, the ability to put together diverse teams and work with teams as we're all interdependent on one another, and good communication skills, I think, which are necessary we are to not only survive, but thrive as people with disabilities And in these environments that were not surprisingly, created primarily to fit people without disabilities, and as we strive to create a good person, a fit between ourselves and the environment, the creativity that goes along with that.   08:35 So I've been working directly with companies. I will note one partnership with a cyber security company called Nova coast, we've developed a fabulous program to launch blind people into cyber security careers.   08:51 You can find that it's called the apex program. You can find that at WWW dot the apex program.com   09:00 and it's a 10 week virtual training that leads to certification network plus and security plus certifications, and then opportunities to interview with employers who are desperately seeking qualified, certified   09:16 Cyber Security employees. As on any given day, there are 755,000   09:22 open cybersecurity jobs in our country, and we're set up with vocational rehabilitation in 20 states now. So if anyone listening is interested in cybersecurity careers,   09:37 please visit www dot the apex program.com,   09:41 another aspect of my consulting business which is really interesting is working with startup companies that are seeking to be very innovative and using technology in order to create a more inclusive world for people with disabilities. When I was a.   10:00 Uh, in the President's CEO role at the American Foundation for the Blind, I was quite regularly contacted by companies who thought they had a great idea of some sort of technological innovation that would be helpful to people who are blind. Sometimes these were well intended people who were seeking to solve a problem that really didn't really exist. Sometimes they were seeking to solve a problem for which there was already a solution, and sometimes they had a pretty cool, new, innovative idea. And inevitably, they were all seeking funding and wanting to know if AFD could provide startup funding. And I was   10:46 easy, easily, quickly able to say, No, we don't do that.   10:52 But as I shifted into an entrepreneurial space myself, with my company, which is called innovative impact LLC, I continued to be contacted by by innovative people wanting to do good in the world   11:12 through scaling their companies, and I have found myself now an advisor To and a shareholder in four different companies, one of which is called curb cut OS. And curb cut OS is one of several intersections between myself and Mr. Grand staff Jeremy, who's who's on the call. So   11:42 a mirror, a tangled web we weave sometimes. So I met Jeremy at an NFB conference. He had his own management consulting business at that time, and I was fairly new at the American Foundation for the Blind. I was working to restructure things, streamline, get focused, moving to a systems change model   12:09 focusing on public policy and research to influence decision makers, rather than direct service to people who are blind their families and professionals in the field. So quite, quite a cultural transformational shift I was working with the board and staff to manage   12:27 and Jeremy had such excellent expertise and experience in working with leadership teams that I engaged Jeremy specifically to work with my senior leadership team to structure how we would meet, how we would engage with one another,   12:47 the cadence of meetings, the content, the structures. And he was so super helpful to me and helping move things forward. And I'm proud of what was accomplished during my six years at AFB, and it is indeed a systems change organization focusing on research and public policy to make big things happen   13:11 in the lives of people who are blind. Jeremy, thank you for the part you played in making that that shift   13:21 while I was at AFB, also, one of the things I did was to take a very small consulting activity and work to create a sustainable revenue generating social enterprise around technology consulting. We were small group, we needed to find partners in order to take on large projects, and one of those partners was a company called nebula Media Group, which has been rebranded it is now curb cut OS.   13:58 When I left AFB and started consulting. I reconnected with what is now curb cut. Os they built my website, innovative impact. Dot consulting,   14:13 they laid a vision out to me, which is very exciting around their approach to digital accessibility, which we'll talk about more here in a few minutes,   14:26 their philosophy,   14:29 their vision, to really make changes in the landscape of digital accessibility. And asked if I would like to pitch in, which I happily agreed to do so. I am a strategic advisor to curb cut OS. I am a small shareholder, which is fun.   14:48 And   14:52 as I, as I say, as I reinvigorated my network, I also reached out to Jeremy say, hey.   15:00 Know, you've been in the consulting space. You've been successful at it. I'm starting it. I wanted to reach out and reconnect with Jeremy.   15:09 I introduced him to curb cut OS, and they   15:14 very, very wisely, also engaged Jeremy in a formal way. He's part of the curb cut OS team, so we're back working together again, which is great, and I really want to   15:29 give space here for Jeremy to talk not only about curb cut and his role there, his vision for the organization, but also his own experience. Jeremy is really uniquely positioned as a leader   15:46 in the blindness field, disability inclusion field, I'm I'm keenly interested in leadership as one of the   15:54 the engines for driving significant change, and as most of you probably know the outcomes for people with disabilities are   16:05 are very deplorable. As far as I mentioned, 35% of us are working as opposed to 70% of the general population. Our home ownership was about a 10th of the general population. Million blind people living in poverty in the country, so we need changes and doing more of the same as not getting as where we need to go. So I'm very interested in disruption and innovation and leadership for change, and I'm also very interested in people with the lived experience of disability being in leadership roles where disability inclusion is concerned. And Jeremy has a   16:49 really unique breadth and depth of experience, and now in the position he's he's out with, with curb cut OS, he is in a position to exert that leadership influence and really make some great things happen. So Jeremy, I'm going to turn the floor over to you and listen attentively as you talk, and I may jot down a few questions that I can come back to later. But so glad you're here. Thanks so much. So glad we reconnected and that we're back back in the boat, rowing the same direction.   17:24 Well, Kirk, it's because of this event that I actually have my job today, because that was the first time that I met my boss, Mark pound, and so   17:37 it was extremely humbling   17:41 listening to your introduction.   17:47 I don't know that I actually knew that I made that big of a difference back in our first encounters. And I think I kind of assumed that that you know you were happy, right? But I knew you were happy, but that was absolutely just very humbling, and so thank you so much for that.   18:10 So as Kirk said, my name is Jeremy Grandstaff. I live outside of DC, Washington, DC and Burke, Virginia, with my seeing eye dog, Ozzie, and my partner, Jerry, I have   18:25 an interesting   18:27 I think sometimes we're always so close to our life story Kirk that we just don't actually start to look at it or think about it.   18:38 But I grew up in a small town in mid west in the Midwest, in Ohio called Marengo, Ohio. I think there were maybe 300 people in my town,   18:52 and   18:53 I don't think about that time of my life a lot. My sister has recently launched a website called My brothers are blind, the letter R blind.com   19:04 where she's kind of on her own journey as a sighted sibling of three blind brothers. And one of the things that she did recently, Kirk was interview all three of us, and it kind of created this reflection of where did we start, and how did we end up where we all are today?   19:27 So some key pieces that I tend to highlight   19:32 at the age of five. So again, I had been blind since birth. I have levers congenital and morosses, and and so I would actually say, probably for the first I believe it was year of my life, my parents weren't really sure what was going on, right? This is 1976   19:51 they had someone out to the house from   19:55 what is now BVI, or Department of digital.   20:00 For the visually impaired. I don't know what it was called back then, but a lady came out to the house, and the way the story is told to me, I was two years old, and   20:12 my parents were told that I would be better off being placed in an institution, and that that was going to be my life. And   20:22 as I said, the way the story was told to me, my dad will just say politely, though I'm not sure it was that politely told them that they might as well get the heck off of his property, because that was not going to be the life that his kid had. And so I have to actually give pay homage to my parents, right? Because they really took this approach that they were going to do whatever it took for me to be quote, unquote normal. And obviously we don't. I don't like using that phrase today, but that's how they looked at it, right? They just wanted me to be able to have the same life that everybody would have if they could see.   21:05 So at the age of five, I was riding my bicycle around our farm and riding up and down the gravel road and scraping my fingers on mailboxes, as I would, you know, take them out on my way by at the   21:19 I know, right   21:22 at the age of seven, I used to run barrels, which is a horse racing activity, and my dad and I developed   21:34 the situation where there were three barrels, and on the top of each barrel would be a can, And in the can was a beeper, and the beepers had different frequencies, and that's how I would know where they were, and so I would run the barrels. At the age of 10, I came up from ossb, Ohio State School for the Blind, where I also, by the way, Kirk, got a very good foundation in Braille and those type of things remind me one day, Kirk, to tell you about the the note that I typed that was supposed to be my teacher telling the librarian I could do something, but I typed it and signed it, Mrs. Perano, like that would be how a teacher would write a note to the librarian. Thought I would get away with that. But at the age of 10, I came up to public school, and at this point, we're talking 1970 I'm sorry, 1986 87 and   22:31 one of the distinct memories that I have in that whole process was sitting in a room with all these teachers and my parents, I later found out it was my IEP, and I am telling them how they are going to accommodate me as a student. Now mind you, at that particular time, my school system was extremely small, so there was no process in place for somebody. I think they called it back then mainstreaming right up into public school, and so the teachers had no idea what to do, and my job was to really take a step back and look at how could What did I need, and how could I ask for the things that I need. And so I distinctly remember   23:22 in that meeting, the teacher asking my parents about something that I would need, and my mom looked at me and said, I don't know why you're asking me. I'm not the one who needs it. Why don't you ask him? And so from a very early age, my parents taught me that my job was to advocate for myself. They also taught me, and my dad hates when I talk about it this way, but there was a role in my house. If you were going to fail, it better be the most spectacular failure you've ever had. Now I'd say it joking like that, but really, what my dad meant was, if it doesn't work and you fail, whatever failure may be, you better be able to look him in the eye. And yes, as a blind person, I was expected to still look my parents in the eye when they were talking to me, or at least look in their direction, right? But my dad would say, you better be able to look me in the eye and tell me that you did everything you could in order to prevent that from being a failure. There was not an acceptable response in my house of I can't do that because I'm blind. That just was not acceptable, and that's at the foundation for most of my life now it also created a little bit of a perfectionist in me, but that's a whole different that's a whole different ball game. Kirk,   24:48 so you know the to complete this tour, if you will, through my life story. I went to college in Bowling Green, I got my my bachelor's degree, and.   25:00 Management Information Systems and international business. My first job, right out of school was working for IBM Global Services. I was promoted to management in about a year of starting my job. So I had 50 people that reported to me, and I was 23 or 24 years old. It was empowering, scary,   25:26 and never once did I ever   25:31 have conversations   25:35 with my boss that were, I can't see, I can't do that, right? It was always, I remember we used to use something. I don't remember exactly what it was called in IBM, but was a archaic mainframe system, one of the most inaccessible things I've ever seen, and I didn't want to cause a problem for IBM, so I just figured out how to work around it. And that's kind of always been my philosophy. I worked at IBM, I ran my own business as a management consultant for 20 years. By the way, when you're running your own business, it's really easy to decide, I'm the owner of the company, so therefore we're only going to use things that are accessible, right? But I remember my business partner coming to me and being like, let's start using Google Docs, because he loved it, and we could collaborate on it. And at first, that was extremely scary to me. But you know what? I figured out how to use it. I put myself in a position where it was my job to figure out how to work with the tools that I had.   26:40 I did work for a management consulting company for a little bit.   26:46 One of the things that I actually think about when I think about that experience,   26:54 there was a software that we used. I'm not going to mention the name, because I don't want to embarrass the company,   27:01 but Kirk, I have to tell you, in the three years that I worked for the consulting company I worked for   27:07 all three years I spent fighting a battle with this vendor, because my job depended on me doing that job using their software that wasn't accessible at all. And I remember one time getting to the point where I had absolutely just I was in a showstop situation,   27:32 and I emailed the vendor who I'd been trying to get a meeting with, and I was like, I said, if you don't give me a meeting with you, my next step is to either call a lawyer or publicly embarrass you on Facebook and LinkedIn. And I actually got scolded by the director of HR because I talked to a vendor that way,   27:52 and then I was told, you better figure out how to use it, or I can find somebody else to do the job. Now we can get into the legalities of that, because I'm sure that there are some. But when you are working for a company, you had actually mentioned this in your opening Kirk, when you're working for a company and you need the job, you don't have the luxury of saying, well, I'll just sue you,   28:18 right? And I needed my family needed to eat. We needed to have money coming in and money on the table. So   28:27 I figured out how to work with it, and I'm going to tell you how I got that vendor to meet with me. Is I did a zoom call with myself. I shared my jaws and I shared the screen, and I showed them exactly what was happening for me.   28:47 And then I said, Please don't make me post this publicly. And I had that meeting in about 10 seconds. I'm not kidding. It was the quickest. Well, okay, we'll say 10 minutes, but   28:59 and so I understand what it's like. I well, I'll complete that part of my life by also saying,   29:08 after working for that company for three years, I was also told that I wasn't able to get a promotion. And the big driver in that   29:19 was that, as a blind person, they did not feel I would ever be able to do the job that a sighted person could do.   29:28 And I will own for you and all the people listening to your amazing live stream that I know in my life, I've been discriminated against in many, ways, but never before did someone actually make it so blunt   29:48 and on video, and it just rocked me,   29:54 and it it rocked my world   29:58 and and I don't even know that.   30:00 I've ever told you this story, Kirk, but I woke up in the middle of the night in a panic, thinking to myself, how could I have given three years to this company? What was I thinking?   30:14 And I instead of getting down on myself and letting that defeat me,   30:21 I walked into my office, the same one I'm sitting in now,   30:26 and I wrote down on a piece of paper. Mind you, by the way, I couldn't read what I wrote, right, but I took a pen and paper and I wrote down, Today is April 1, on June 3, June 18, which happened to me, my birthday. I will no longer work for people who do not value me and the expertise and the wisdom that I can bring their company.   30:47 And Kirk, I sat down and I found 10 events, one of which was your event. And I said, wow, these events looked interesting. I think I can learn something by going to these. And it is because I came to your event that three months later, on June 17, one day before my birthday, I started working for curb cut OS and, well, there you go,   31:17 monthly live stream. That's right. And I think it's also, you know, it kind of comes back to this, like   31:27 I talk about it as confidence or advocating for yourself, but really what it comes down to is this, I had a choice to make that day. I could feel bad for myself. I could feel bad that I was discriminated against so blatant, I could feel bad for them, and the way that to this day, I'm still not sure, though maybe they do know now that it was not the right thing to do, but instead, I chose to say, No way. This is not going to stop me, and this is where I'm going to go, and I have something to bring to the world. And I think as people with disabilities, it's really critical to learn   32:12 that part of your job is to educate. And that's just how it is. We can be upset at that, about that, but truthfully, if someone is going to let us, and yes, let's use the word intentionally, let us educate them,   32:30 then that also means that they're open to learning. And if someone's open to learning   32:39 and you teach them, then they just become your partner advocate. But if you're not advocating for yourself, you can't expect them to advocate for you as well, right? So,   32:55 so curb cut and stop me anytime but curb cut OS, we're digital accessibility company. We are doing for   33:09 the digital accessibility field and digital accessibility world for our clients, what the curb cut effect did for physical   33:21 accessibility. And that is something that I, you know, I like to tell people. For the first time in my life, me being a blind person,   33:31 it actually opens doors to that conversation. You know, one of the things that I've heard you and other people talk about before is there's over 1.6 billion people in the world who have a disability. They leave 12 point some trillion dollars a year in shopping carts that are unaccessible because they cannot buy from them. Now that's an astronomical number, but let me make it real for everybody who's listening. As a blind person, I have been buying things online for over 30 years, and the last time I did the math, I have left $260,000   34:15 of my money sitting in a shopping cart somewhere because I couldn't complete the buying process, and instead, I would take my business elsewhere. So when it comes right down to it, disability, inclusion, yep, it's about doing the right thing. Yep, it's about creating opportunities for everybody, no matter if they have a seen or an unseen disability. But when you get right down to it as a company, it's about not losing business to other companies. It's about being able to capture more market share, because people with disabilities, whether they can be seen or unseen, are now able to buy from you. And that is what I love about what we do, we do auditing, we do remediation, we do.   35:00 Systems maturity modeling, we do document remediation, we've got SaaS solutions called the accessible UX platform. We've just launched our partnership. My understanding is a Kirk that you played an extremely amazing role in that with Ipsos, marketing, leading marketing research firm, and we offer something called a three way accessible UX audit, but very bluntly, it's an automated audit, a manual audit,   35:38 and then also a user flow audit,   35:42 or an audit of user experience. And when I talk about this, what I love to say to people is this,   35:50 if you're going to look at the user experience that someone has when they come to your website or they use your application, and you don't first check as well to see if there's an accessibility problem for people to be able to access it, then the user experience is never going to be quite as great as you want it to be, right? And so that's a little bit about me.   36:16 A couple questions. Oh, sure, absolutely yes. Go ahead,   36:22 first, not a question, but just comment. So the curb cut effect, for those who don't know the curb cut is the ramp that leads from the sidewalk into the street. Those weren't really around till the mid 70s, when our brothers and sisters who are wheelchair users demanded that the regulations requiring them be enforced, and they occupied the Federal Health,   36:50 Education and Welfare building in San Francisco for almost a month. They did   36:56 nonviolent protests in Washington, DC, and there's a great documentary called crip camp that talks about that, the Netflix documentary that you can find, I highly, highly recommend it.   37:10 So I'm quite you mentioned your sister   37:13 with three blind brothers. Bless her,   37:18 where were you in the birth order? I'm just curious, were you the trail blazer for your other two blind brothers? Out of that work? That's a great question. I want to take a step back for 10 seconds before that though Kirk, because I love the curb cut effect, I absolutely do, and I'm going to own for you, my friend. I did not know what exactly that was until you actually explained that before. And what a moving picture. And what I love about this and building the point being now that recent research study half a percent of the use of Curb cuts is by people in wheelchairs now, so it's   38:02 that cyclist skateboarders, parents with strollers, people grocery carts, people with roller bags. Everyone uses them   38:13 well. And so before I answer your question on the birth order, one of the things that I also like to highlight right is three years ago, during the pandemic, me and my husband Jerry started watching the Netflix Netflix series The Crown amazing. And we got through two or three episodes, and Jerry looks at me, and he goes, I can't watch this anymore with you. I was like, why? And he's like, Honey, it is too much information on the screen. There's too much happening in the background. I've got to tell you, too much. It's exhausting me. I can't keep up with this. And I have to tell you, Kirk, I came late to the audio description thing. It just I had thought not to be seen as a blind person, so I didn't want somebody telling me what was on screen. I'll figure it out right. Very stubborn attitude.   39:08 And I remember Jerry saying to me, why don't we just turn on the audio description? And I'm like, Okay, fine. We'll do it just for this one show. Because I was hooked on the ground. I wanted to watch it right,   39:18 you should know. And just so Kirk gets the visual on this. For anybody who's saying I'm picking up my phone and I'm acting like I'm scrolling through my phone. My house now has audio description on on every TV. And it is not just so Jeremy knows what's happening on the screen. It is so that my loving partner jerry can look down at his phone and scroll through his reels while we're watching TV and not have to, you know, be able to be told what's on the screen and not have to watch it. So, as you're saying, we designed audio description for people that are blind. The added benefit is now sighted people don't have to constantly look at their screen.   40:00 Right, right, and I'll yeah, and I'll throw it closed captioning was created by the deaf, deafness community. It was in the   40:08 communications and visual Accessibility Act of 2010 the CVAA, that certain amount of programming was required to have closed captioning. Now over 50% of the use of closed captioning is by hearing people, because they can track the dialog just what you're saying a noisy Sports Bar, they can read what the announcers are saying or   40:32 doing household chores, glance up, catch the dialog if they missed something. So that's another curb cut   40:40 example. And yeah, the big one in 1948   40:45 Robert Irwin, who is blind. He was the president of the American Foundation for the Blind. At that time, was interviewed in the New York Times about talking books, which were created by AFD and Helen Keller and Eleanor Roosevelt and the gang to record books for blind people on a records. And   41:05 Robert Irwin said the use of talking books will be very limited, because there won't be a case in which a sighted person would ever want to listen to a book. So it's   41:18 interesting, right? Because then we have, I think when you say that, and I've heard you say that before, I always think of Jerry, who he doesn't read anything. He well, he obviously he reads stuff, but he doesn't read a book. He listens to it on Audible. That's what he does, right? I was the first born, so my parents, I one of the things that I want to encourage you to do and   41:42 I hope this is okay, Kirk, but definitely go check out my sister's blog and her journey. It is. She did an interview with all three of us brothers. She also interviewed my parents, and she let me and my little brother Corey, interview her on her journey. And it was actually, it's been really neat to watch her go through that journey. You know, she had to, like, learn not to post things that didn't have alt tags, if you're going to be talking about blindness, right? And, and, and that kind of alignment or congruence, as you and I have been trained to call it,   42:22 but Integris, you know, action.   42:26 But one of the things that I distinctly remember hearing my parents say, and I think the sister, my sister's journey, has really allowed us as a family to kind of take a step back right and look at it all. I was the first born. My parents didn't have any idea what to do, and the state told him to put me in an institution. So that was never going to fly for them. And so I remember my dad telling me at a very young age, you have to be smart. He's like, you're not you're not going to make it in athletics. You're not going to be able to do that and be, you know, a successful football star, baseball star, right? And he and that's what my dad knew, right? And so he said, even though he knew I was going to end up smarter than him, he needed me to be smart, because the only way I was going to be able to move away from Marengo, Ohio to a city that had a transportation system that I could be independent, which was going to make me know I was a productive member of society, was to be smart, and so I remember like being a kid in geometry and my dad, every day, would sit down and draw out the shapes and the pictures in my book, because we couldn't get a book in braille, and he would draw them out, and he would teach them to me. And you know, then I also remember the you think you're smart conversations, right, which are always fun too.   44:04 There's a couple things that I wanted to quickly touch on, very quickly before I stop talking, just as starting points. I think especially since you are very focused on disability inclusion and employment,   44:21 you know, again, helping people feel comfortable. Sometimes we use that word I like to use, you know, giving people the right to educate me as a recruiter on what they need. It was really simple, and I implemented this when I was a recruiter for my previous job. Um,   44:42 every time I'd call to schedule an interview with someone, or every time that someone would go to schedule an interview, I would ask the question, is there anything that is going to help you be able to more fully participate throughout the interview process?   45:00 Process,   45:01 and what I distinctly remember is one conversation where I asked that question, and the person was on the phone with me, and they go, I don't even know what that would look like. I mean, I'm fine. I I, you know, I've got some ADHD, so maybe if you could send me interview questions in advance, so that I could actually know what I'm answering.   45:26 But had I not asked that question   45:30 integral,   45:32 I would have never opened the door for them to feel the comfort in saying. I don't even know what accommodations are, but this is me, and I also remember them saying, you know, no one's ever asked me that before. That makes me know that your company really cares about its employees. So we had the perception thing that would come out of that, and that's definitely part of it. Go ahead, I have two more questions for I want to ask one, and then we'll pause and let people know how they can get in touch with each of us.   46:12 And then I'll ask the other so the first one,   46:16 what you described   46:19 about working around and being at IBM and accessible mainframe and trying to figure, needing to figure it out   46:26 tools that weren't accessible and you figured it out.   46:30 You know, that's   46:33 resonates with me around having strong internal locus of control, which means you believe in your bones, you can figure stuff out, you can make, make your way. You can get it done.   46:45 When I did my dissertation work and interviewed blind adults successfully employed in large companies, they all shared that. And I think I have that. I think I got it   46:58 from my family and also the School for the Blind, where I was with other 120 other blind kids, and they had us backpacking the Three Sisters wilderness area and horse camping and   47:10 making igloos up on Mount Hood and in the tide pools on the Oregon coast, searching for sea creatures and, you know, things so and you know You were riding your bike on the ground road. I was climbing trees and building tree forts and   47:26 floating, floating down the creek on a log and doing all this stuff I would never let my kids do because it was crazily unsafe. But   47:35 anyway,   47:38 you and I were both blind as very young children, and there was no question, does this kid need to learn braille? Does this kid need to learn how to use a cane? Does this kid need these skills? But were the exceptions only something 10, 15% of us are totally blind. A lot of kids have some usable vision. There's a lot of question around whether or not they need blindness skills. Do they need Braille? Can they use magnification now? Can they just listen to it? People become blind later in life.   48:13 Not everyone had parents like ours. Dad set you up with barrels, with beepers.   48:20 My parents quit their jobs so they could move to another state so I could go to a better school for blind kids. So for those people who didn't have those gifts given to them, of those experiences that establish that strong internal locus of control, as far as building confidence, kind of building that resilience muscle. Any thoughts for for people who are listening, who are either blind, newly experiencing, progressive vision loss, have someone in their family   48:57 who they feel could use a shot of confidence? Any any little steps you would recommend that people think about, gosh, that's such a loaded question, right? I mean, because, first of all, to your point,   49:12 I was an extremely privileged person,   49:16 right? I just have to own that.   49:21 And and before i di further into this Kirk, I have to tell you, I did something the other day that I never in a million years that I would do. I chose when I went to an immersion weekend for an organization that I'm with last week, and   49:39 I chose to leave my seeing eye dog at home. Now my cane skills are probably not as great as yours. I've had a seeing eye dog since I was 18, but one of the things that I've learned over the last eight to 10 years is that I needed to make sure that I didn't let my cane skills go just in case, right?   49:57 Kirk, I'm proud to tell you.   50:00 That I took 42nd street in New York City, from Eighth Street all the way over to Times Square, and I did it with my cane. And had you asked me six years ago if I would ever do that, I would have told you you were absolutely crazy. I know exactly that stretch of 42nd   50:21 street of independent travel. I came out of the Port Authority, and I was like, What in God's name was I thinking?   50:29 But   50:31 to your point,   50:34 and I have a friend of mine who's actually going through this very thing. So the first thing is, you gotta ask questions you're not there is no question. There's always the phrase, there's no question that's too stupid. I don't like that because that assumes that we would even regard ourselves as stupid. I like to say there's no question not worth exploring,   50:58 even if the answer is, I can't help you. Then say, Do you know someone who can right? My friend that is losing his sight? I love him. I love him with integrity. I love him with all of the heart and soul that I have. But one of the things that I am really struggling with him on is he has not fully lost his sight, but he's starting to lose his sight. And so he keeps putting off the conversation around, what is technology look for me look like when I lose my sight? What is Kane skills look like. And so one of the things that I've been trying to help him understand   51:47 is that if he starts to explore the tools that he can use 10 years from now today, it's going to be much easier for him to make that transition, because he will already be familiar with those tools. And so I think that's the first piece. The second piece is learn. Don't be afraid to learn. Look at different ways that you can do things. And there's an irony, by the way I would tell most of the sighted people that I know to do the same thing, because they will not always have their sight, or they will not always have their legs, or they may not always have their hearing, and so know what's available to you and explore it why you can and not have to be responding to the pressure of not being able to right.   52:48 Surround, yeah, surround yourself with   52:53 all different types of people. You know one thing,   52:59 I think, Kirk, you're going to smile when I do this. But one of the things that I heard someone talking about over the last week   53:09 is this interesting concept that happens when we say, Oh, they're blind. They're just like every other blind person that I know.   53:18 Blind people have just as much diversity, experience and diversity in capabilities as sighted people. And just as there are some sighted people that I love to death and that I would do anything for, I can also tell you that there are some sighted people who really need to embrace themselves and learn and grow and be that growth minded person that is going to transcend their own barriers, whatever those are, right? And I focused a lot on my answer of blind and sighted, but I also think about and and I'm going to own for you. Before I took the job with curb cut, this had never crossed my mind. I feel a little vulnerably dumb for saying that honestly. But   54:13 you think about the number of websites that you go to, and on the homepage, they've got this flashing thing going across a slideshow, and it just keeps flashing and flashing and flashing. If you've got an athletic epileptic disorder, I'm sorry I'm not good at saying that word seizure disorder, you see that and that's going to drive you right into a seizure. Never occurred to me that if your website has too much text, someone with a neuro diversity, um,   54:44 with someone that is neuro diverse will not be able to spend more than three minutes on your website, and you'll lose them. And if your job it let's, you know, take it away from like companies and, um.   55:00 You know, trying to sell to more people. If you're a government agency,   55:05 and I have a neuro diversity disorder, and I go to your website, and there are 17 paragraphs of things that I need to read. I'm sorry your agency cannot serve all the people that you're supposed to serve. And so Jeremy, I recently asked our daughter, Rachel, who's in her mid 30s, what does TLDR mean? You know what it means?   55:30 Too long to read and to God, too long didn't read? Yeah, my, my, so Jerry, who you know? Yeah, Jerry will litter. I'll be like, oh, did you read my post? He's like, Yeah, it was more than three sentences. I couldn't do it frustrates me, right? I'm like, but it was so good. He's like, Yeah, sorry, no, can't do it, right?   55:56 So, so we're this hour has flown by. I want to I do have one more question I want to squeeze in. But before I do, yeah, how can people get in touch with you?   56:08 So first of all, to find out more about what we're doing, you can go to curb cut os.com, that's C R, C U R, B, C, u t, O s.com,   56:18 I would actually recommend maybe putting a slash Ipsos partnership, all one word, IP, s, o, s partnership   56:27 on the end of that, because that's going to take you to the three way audit I was talking about. I'm on LinkedIn,   56:34 so you can always find me by going to linkedin.com/i.   56:38 N, slash, Jeremy Grandstaff, all one word, J, E, R, E, M, y, G, R, A, N, D, S, T, A, F, F. You can also email me at Jeremy G at curb cut, os com, and for those who may need to call or text, you can get a hold of me at the office via phone or text at 202-810-5368, 8105368,   57:04 my job in doing what I do for curb cut is to really look at, how are we building partnerships in order to best serve and engage Our clients, both from, you know, generating new clients, but also looking at creating shared experiences and ecosystem mergers that are going to take what we're doing to next level, and at the same time Kirk take what other companies are doing, and other partners that we have are doing to the next level as well. And so I am open to exploratory conversations at any time. Wonderful, and for me also LinkedIn there every day. Kirk Adams PhD, and I have a website for my consulting practice, innovative impact dot consulting. There's an inquiry form there. I'd love to talk to anyone, anywhere, anytime, about employment people with disabilities, and that's my that's my question before I open it up.   58:10 So just a quick   58:13 advice, one or two things people might think about if they are a blind or visually impaired person, either seeking employment and running into accessibility issues in the employment process, or in a workplace where they're running into accessibility issues with the productivity tools they're expected to use to do their jobs. I know you counter both of those things. Any, yeah, absolutely, any, any bits of it, of advice that people might consider absolutely there are so many different approaches to what do you do in the in the job market, right? How do you get another job? It's almost overwhelming. I remember when I was actually looking at, how do I get out of my other job? And wound up getting this one. I must have got 17 invite events, invites a day to events where it was telling me what to do   59:10 to get it to get a job and to improve my employment. Piece, I think I'll take the external piece first, right.   59:19 There are organizations. One comes to mind, Penny forward, for example, that as a whole course on how to   59:29 really look at your career, where you want to go, and how to get there. And I think that that's really important. But one of the things that they talk about is, how do you handle discrimination within the hiring process?   59:42 When does it matter? And when do you just see that discrimination as maybe this is not who I want to work for, right? And I think that you have to make a judgment call sometimes on how important is this issue to me for.   1:00:00 How important is it that,   1:00:03 and how certain Am I that I've been discriminated against, right? So let's say I get rejected, and I've went through four interviews and they say, unfortunately, we've decided to pursue a different candidate. It's very difficult for me to be able to say I was discriminated against when I went through four interviews and I got a general rejection, right? I may be able to make a case, but it's hard to make that case, and so it may not be worth my time. Now, in my particular case, I still worked for a company, and they literally said on video, we don't think you can ever do the same job that a blind person can. And I want you to know in full disclosure,   1:00:55 I walked away from that company, I set them up and did my job extremely well. When I say, I set them up, I set them up for success, and did my job extremely well,   1:01:07 and I walked away, and I chose not to pursue legal action. But for me in my life,   1:01:17 that gives me the upper hand, and I'm totally comfortable with that, because I know I did the right thing, and I will always know that, for me, there are going to be times when you're going to need to have a lawsuit. We know that as blind people, as   1:01:34 you know, people who are deaf or obviously what the people in wheelchairs did in order to get the curb cut, sometimes you've got to take those stands, but what you want to do is you want to be strategic, and more importantly, you also want to make sure that taking that stand is not just the right thing to do, to take the stand, but it's The right thing to do for you.   1:02:02 We also live in a different world. Kirk, I was thinking about this, right when I got my job with IBM.   1:02:09 God, I'm embarrassed to say 25 years ago,   1:02:15 that's a little interesting. But when I got my first job with IBM, I did a phone interview with Katie Johnson. I'll never forget her, by the way, Katie Johnson with alternative resources. And I called her up. I had heard this ad, you know, it said, Let alternative resources begin your career. And so I was a snotty little 20 year old, 22 year old. So I called up, and I was like, Hi, Katie. This is Jeremy grand staff, and I hear you're going to begin my career, right? And we start having a conversation. It's on the phone. The blindness never come up. It was never a discussion point. She never asked about it, because how would she know? It isn't like she could look me up on LinkedIn. This is, you know, back when there wasn't social media. She offered me an interview. So I had my parents at the time, because I, you know, was staying at their house. The interview was in Columbus, Ohio, so my parents dropped me off a block away from where her building was. Now, you may say, Well, you didn't know the area. How would you have found it well, the whole concept of me doing that   1:03:24 is I needed to put myself in a place where, while I was independently walking into that job interview. So when I walked in with my seeing eye dog and Katie came out to meet me, you could hear it right. She was like,   1:03:42 Oh, you're Jeremy and a god lover. She did so great. Kurt. She's like, Oh, Why'd she come on back? Let's talk, right? We're having this great conversation. And all of a sudden she, you could tell her, her, her lack of certainty kicked in. And she goes,   1:04:02 um, I have a question that I'm just not sure now, never mind I won't ask it. And I was like, you know, Katie, what you want to ask me is, how am I going to be able to use the ticketing system that you guys are using to log phone calls that I'm going to be answering, and what you really want to know is, is it going to be accessible for me, and am I going to be able to do the job? And I said, tell you what. Let's save that conversation for after you've made the decision that I'm the right person for the job. That way, you don't have to worry about me ever saying you discriminated against me, and I don't have to worry about you making a decision based on whether I can use a ticketing system or not. Why don't you decide whether I'm the right person for the job, and then we'll figure out the logistics after that. And what that actually showed her was,   1:04:58 this does.   1:05:00 Fire of mine,   1:05:02 that I wanted her to hire me, not because I was a blind person, but because I knew I would be able to make that work. And I think to your point,   1:05:16 there are always going to be times that we do have to go above and beyond, you know? And I there was one piece Kirk that I wanted to just quickly touch on, very quick,   1:05:28 the other piece that I want to encourage people to do, and especially like we've come a long way in 25 years, right? If you are having a struggle at work, whether it's accommodation, whether it's a mental health challenge, which is huge right now, whether it's anxiety, whether it's I'm not feeling well, whatever it is, please do justice to The person that you work for and help them, help you by telling them and and I know that I'm going to get a little pushback, I'm sure, from somebody for saying what I'm saying. But if someone uses that situation, someone that you work with uses that situation as a way to punish you or demean you or put you in a bad place. I assure you that their supervisor would like to know that they've done that. And I also assure you that if the company is going to let that happen, my friends, it is not a place that you want to be, and it is not a place that is worthy of you being there. Well, Jeremy, well, in a couple sometime next year, we'll do another we'll do an hour of our self disclosure to transform corporate culture. Oh, I love it. You just touched on it. So exciting. Very exciting. So anyone who's joined us live today have a question or a comment for either Jeremy or myself.   1:07:09 Hearing none I will say thank you, Mr. Grand staff, for your insights and your willingness to share your journey.   1:07:19 Next month,   1:07:22 supercharge your bottom lines for disability inclusion will be not on the last Thursday of the month, because that is Thanksgiving. I will be feasting and watching football and taking a nap, as I hope many of you will be doing. We will be convening on Thursday November 21 at 11am Pacific Time. My guest will be a very innovative company called inno search. I n n o search, and they have standardized, simplified the E commerce shopping experience for people who are blind. It's awesome. We'll talk to them on November 21 thanks, everyone live and watching the recording, get in touch with Jeremy or I, if we could be of any service. Thanks so much. Thank you, Kirk. Appreciate you being so accommodating with your time. Absolutely take good care to be with you. All right,   1:08:19 thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot DRK adams.com,   1:08:32 together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact. You.

Dr. Kirk Adams and Evan Amundson discussed the Work Opportunity Tax Credit (WOTC) and its benefits for businesses hiring individuals with disabilities. Evan highlighted that WOTC can provide tax credits ranging from $1,200 to $9,600 per eligible new hire, with over 2 million eligible new hires in 2023. He emphasized the importance of vocational rehabilitation agencies in connecting employers with qualified candidates. Kirk added that only 35% of people with significant disabilities are in the workforce, despite many being highly motivated and qualified. They also mentioned other tax credits, such as the Disabled Access Credit and Barrier Removal Deduction, to incentivize businesses to hire and accommodate individuals with disabilities.

Dr. Kirk Adams, Managing Director of Innovative Impact LLC, hosted a webinar discussing disability inclusion and employment. He highlighted that only 35% of blind individuals are employed, compared to 70% of the general population. Lucas Behnken, producer of the documentary "Surpassing Sight," shared the film's goal to change perceptions of blind capabilities through the story of a blind team in the Race Across America. The film aims to catalyze social impact by connecting employers with training programs and tracking employment outcomes. The project includes private screenings, a red carpet premiere, and a long-term strategy to raise awareness and funds for employment opportunities for the blind. Introduction and Overview of the Webinar Speaker 1 introduces the podcast, emphasizing its focus on disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Speaker 2, Dr. Kirk Adams, welcomes everyone to the fourth episode of his monthly live-streamed webinar series. Dr. Adams mentions the partnership with the documentary film "Surpassing Sight" and introduces its producer, Lucas Behnken. Lucas Behnken introduces himself and his production company, Sterling Light Productions, and provides a brief background on the film and its foundation. Dr. Kirk Adams' Background and Employment Statistics for Blind Individuals Dr. Adams shares his personal story of being blind since childhood and his education at the Oregon State School for the Blind. He discusses the employment challenges faced by blind individuals, noting that only 35% are employed compared to 70% of the general population. Dr. Adams highlights the disparities in employment outcomes, including higher unemployment rates and lower income levels for blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance of meaningful employment in providing financial stability, dignity, and positive self-identity. Success Stories and Personal Experiences of Blind Professionals Dr. Adams shares success stories of blind professionals who have achieved significant careers in large corporations. He recounts the story of a blind woman who overcame obstacles to become an executive in a telecom company. Another story involves a blind man who participated in freestyle bike tricks with his sighted peers, fostering a strong sense of self-efficacy. Dr. Adams discusses his professional career dedicated to creating opportunities for blind and disabled individuals to thrive in employment. Dr. Adams' Professional Achievements and Leadership Roles Dr. Adams details his role as President and CEO of the Lighthouse for the Blind in Seattle, where he oversaw businesses employing blind and deaf-blind individuals. He highlights the success of these businesses, including aerospace manufacturing and advanced manufacturing for the U.S. Army. Dr. Adams shares his experience serving on the Board of Trustees for the American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) and his leadership role at AFB. He recounts his meeting with Jack Chen, a blind Assistant General Counsel for Google, and their shared commitment to creating opportunities for blind individuals in the workforce. The Race Across America Project and AFB's Involvement Dr. Adams describes the Race Across America project initiated by Jack Chen and Dan Berlin, involving blind professionals on tandem cycling teams. AFB sponsored the Race Across America team, marking a significant milestone in their efforts to change perceptions of blind capabilities. Dr. Adams shares his transition to a new role as a consultant and his partnership with Dan Berlin, leading to the Apex Program for training blind individuals in cybersecurity. The Apex Program has expanded to 16 states, with a target of training 400 blind individuals annually in cybersecurity. Introduction of Lucas Behnken and the Surpassing Sight Film Project Lucas Behnken introduces himself and his background in creating social impact campaigns around documentary films. He explains his involvement in the Surpassing Sight project, which began with footage from the Race Across America. Lucas and his team, including director Ramon Fernandez, interviewed subjects and created the film to highlight the capabilities of blind professionals. The film includes a diverse team of blind and low-vision professionals, ensuring authenticity and impact. The Film's Social Impact Campaign and Distribution Strategy Lucas emphasizes the importance of using the film as a tool to make long-term change and enhance lives. The film includes an audio description track, ensuring accessibility for blind viewers. Lucas and his team have been conducting private screenings to build advocates and gather feedback on the film's impact. The goal is to create a concierge service to connect blind professionals with companies and track their employment outcomes. Lessons Learned from Previous Social Impact Campaigns Lucas shares insights from his work on the documentary "Molly," which focused on adoption and foster care. The campaign involved private screenings, partnerships with nonprofits, and a large theatrical release to raise awareness and funds. The campaign resulted in significant donations and increased visibility for the organization, highlighting the power of a well-structured social impact effort. Lucas emphasizes the importance of building a team dedicated to the social impact campaign to ensure long-term success. Call to Action and Invitation to Get Involved Dr. Adams and Lucas invite viewers to get involved in the Surpassing Sight social impact initiative. They provide contact information for those interested in volunteering, donating, or collaborating on the project. Dr. Adams shares his email and LinkedIn information for further discussions. The webinar concludes with a call to action, encouraging viewers to check out the Surpassing Sight website and join the effort to change employment outcomes for blind individuals. SUMMARY KEYWORDS disability inclusion, employment opportunities, blind professionals, Race Across America, social impact, documentary film, employment statistics, internal locus, meaningful employment, cybersecurity training, private screenings, social action campaign, employment disparities, film distribution, stakeholder connections 00:00 Music.   00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,   00:36 wonderful. Welcome everybody. This is Dr Kirk Adams, Managing Director of innovative impact LLC, welcome to my monthly live streamed webinar. Supercharge your bottom line through Disability Inclusion, I began this monthly series in February, so this is the fourth episode. It is being recorded so we can share with folks later. Every month, I partner with another ecosystem that shares my passion and focus on accelerating inclusion of people with disabilities in the workforce. This month, we're featuring a documentary film and social impact project called surpassing site, and the documentary films producer Lucas Behnken is with us today, Lucas, if you want to say hi and just a brief headline about who you are, and we'll dig deeper into your amazing background in a bit.   01:35 Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm Lucas Behnken and I'm a producer, and have a production company called Sterling light productions. And I was the producer and production company for this film titled surpassing site, which we have now established what is called surpassing site foundation to be the distribution campaign for the film,   01:57 fabulous. So a little background, I want to talk just a little bit about myself, a little bit about employment of people with disabilities, employment of people who are blind in particular, and then tell a very interesting story about how we all came to be here today. So again, I'm Dr Kirk Adams. I am a blind person. My retina is detached. When I was five years old in kindergarten, I attended a school for blind children in the state of Oregon. Oregon State School for the Blind first, second, third grade. Learned to read and write Braille, travel confidently with a white cane type on a typewriter, and was given some real gifts there. As I went to school with 120 other blind kids, I was given a strong internal locus of control, which meant I felt in my bones, as I left third grade and went to public school in fourth grade that I could be successful in whatever I chose to do with my life. I also was given the gift of lofty expectations from the school and my parents about what I could accomplish. And I was given skills. I was given, like I mentioned, Braille skills, key it was typing then, but keyboarding skills, skills to travel confidently and independently. And those are three of the main factors that lead to successful employment for blind people as we become adults, unfortunately, the employment outcomes for us are not even close to what they should be. Only 35% of us are working, compared to about 70% of the general population that are working age, that are that are in the workforce. So about half, if you look at the actual Bureau of Labor Statistics, unemployment rate people who are actively seeking employment, if you see the general population is 4% for people with disabilities, is going to be 8% so our outcomes are always half as good or twice as bad as the general population. As far as employment goes, for those of us who are employed, we're in a much narrower, narrower band of occupations than the general population, and over half of us that work are working for government or nonprofits, which are great places to work, but they definitely have caps on the level of income one can achieve As composed to other employment settings. So this persistent unemployment problem leads to things like poverty. A third of people with significant disabilities live in poverty. Our home ownership is 1/10 that of the general population, and leads to health disparities educational achievement. This disparities, all, all kinds of bad things. So I have devoted my professional career to creating opportunities for other people who are blind and have other disabilities to thrive in employment. There's lots of ways to tackle lots of problems. My My choice has been to focus on employment, because I believe that meaningful employment not only solves financial issues, but it also provides individuals with the experience of the dignity of work, the positive self identity that goes with meaningful work. So I have pursuit of creating those opportunities for people who are blind. I have earned a PhD in leadership and change my dissertation, which is called journeys through rough country as an ethnographic study of blind adults who are successfully employed in large corporations. And I interviewed blind people working at companies whose names we all know, Facebook, Apple, Google, Amazon, Chase, at&t, etc. And I found a couple of really interesting things, one that almost everyone shared that strong internal locus of control that I mentioned earlier, believing in their bones they could forge their own path, and they could, without exception, trace that to an experience, experience or set of experiences, that gave them That sense of their own mastery of their own destiny. Two examples, I like to use one woman who's been employed in a large telecom company as an executive for 45 years, recalled that shit when she was a young girl, 10 years old. She and her twin sister were sent to a sleepaway camp, a summer camp, and when it came time to do horseback riding, the counselors told this young blind girl that she was she wasn't allowed to ride the horses because it was too dangerous. And blind kids hear that a lot. You can't do this. You can't do that. Her sighted sister, however, was allowed to ride the horses. So that night, they slipped out of the cabin, went to the stable, and they got out two horses, and they rode together. And she this was so animated when she recalled that night, writing swiftly through the night with her twin sister side by side. And that gave her that sense that she could really do anything that she set her mind to in a very different setting. One of the people I interviewed, a very successful person with computer science degrees and law degrees, very responsible positions in tech, who's blind, recalled growing up in one of the boroughs in New York City, and falling in with a group of 1213, year old boys in the neighborhood who did freestyle bike tricks. They would ride their bikes and stand up on the seat, or stand up on the handlebars and jump over benches and do all kinds of tricks. And he was doing that with with his neighborhood crew as a blind person. And as I often tell Parents of Blind children's you can measure your success to the parent of a blind kid by how many, how many trips to the emergency room do you make? So I think in that case, that young gentleman had his parents in and out of the ER often, but he certainly grew up with that strong internal locus of control. So a couple other things I've done. I had the privilege of serving as president and CEO of the Lighthouse for the Blind here in Seattle, and we employed, and they still do employ dozens and dozens of blind and deaf blind people, some with additional disabilities, and businesses that generate revenue and support the organization, some of the most interesting being aerospace manufacturing, 120 blind and DeafBlind machinists making parts For all the Boeing aircraft, computer numerically controlled advanced manufacturing, producing issue items for the United States Army, the entrenchment tool, the omnimo Hydration systems and a number of other very successful business enterprises. While serving in that capacity, I was invited to join the Board of Trustees for the American Foundation for the Blind AFB, which is the most iconic historic organization in the blindness field. It was Helen Keller's organization for 45 years, where she served as global brand ambassador, and when I. And my wife moved from Seattle to New York in May of 2016 so I could step into that leadership role at AFB. I had the opportunity to sit at Helen Keller's desk in the morning and play with her typewriter and read a page out of her Braille Bible, and get get tied right into that history and that impact that she had, and gain that inspiration to try to do the best I can to carry on that legacy of creating opportunities and being an advocate. In May of 2016 when I arrived New York, I got a telephone call from a gentleman named Jack Chen, and Jack said, I work about 10 blocks from you at Chelsea Market. I'm Assistant General Counsel for Google, and I'm blind, and I heard you came to AFB, and I want to welcome you to the city. So we met for breakfast and became friends and colleagues and developed a deep relationship and also a shared commitment to devoting our time, energy and resources to creating opportunities for people who are blind in the world of work. Several years, fast forward, I got another call from Jack saying, I'm working on a an amazing project. I have a business partner named Dan Berlin, who's also blind. Want to get on a call with the three of us and talk to you about this project. So Dan another worth another hour conversation. Very successful blind entrepreneur, was a chemist by training,   11:44 worked for a large   11:47 pharma school, pharmaceutical company that we all know. When his vision got to the point where he could no longer perform the job duties that he was accustomed to, he chose to leave at employment. He purchased a small flavors company. He became our country's largest importer of vanilla. Sold that business has a nonprofit called Team C possibilities. He provides scholarships to blind college students. He organizes outdoor adventures. He's taken blind young people to run along the Great Wall of China to run trails in Peru of Machu Picchu, another Outstanding, outstanding blind individual. And Jack and Dan said that they wanted to undertake the most rigorous physical challenge that they could find and involve blind professionals in doing so to document it on film and use the documentary as a tool to change perceptions of employers around the capabilities of people who are blind to encourage blind people to pursue their dreams and ultimately to move the needle in those terrible statistics of blind employment that we talked about earlier, and they told me what we have chosen is called The Race Across America. I had never heard of it, but as they explained it, it's the longest single stage bicycle race in the world. Cycling teams start with their rear rear wheel in the Pacific Ocean in California, and they continuously ride as a team to Annapolis, Maryland, Atlantic Ocean. And Dan and Jack proposed putting together four tandem cycling teams, each with a blind professional on the back of the bike. That position is called the stoker, and a sighted person in front that person is called the pilot, and they wanted to put together all the logistics necessary to continuously HAVE THEIR TEAM CYCLE across across the nation. They wanted to document it. And then they had their ask, would the American Foundation for the Blind consider being a sponsor of our race team, and   14:25 coincidentally, as karma works,   14:29 AFB Centennial was approaching, we had put together a budget to promote the centennial, and one of Our line items was to sponsor a signature event. So being a good CEO, I did not say yes, but I said, I will put you in touch with our chief communications officer who owns that budget, and you can talk to her about your project, which they did, and the decision was. Made for AFB to sponsor the Race Across America, Team C to C as the signature sponsor sponsorship event for our centennial. So we're proudly the American Foundation for the Blind was proudly the first sponsor for Team C to C's Race Across America. Now I'm going to digress just a little bit, but it's still pertinent. When I made the decision to leave the American Foundation for the Blind and step into a new role as a consultant, in the summer of 2022 I had reached out to friends, colleagues to let them know that I was seeking fun, innovative, high impact projects that would accelerate inclusion of people who are blind in the workforce. And one of those people I reached out to, of course, was Dan Berlin. Shortly thereafter, you and his wife were on vacation. His wife went on a dive trip, and one of the women on the scuba diving trip, named Janice, turned out to be the co founder of a very successful cyber cyber security company called Nova coast. Nova coast was founded in Santa Barbara, California, about 30 years ago, they worked mostly with large global financial institutions. They're very entrepreneurial. They create business activities where they see need.   16:32 They had created a training program,   16:36 virtual training program, to train people to get basic certifications on cybersecurity for entry level cybersecurity jobs, because they could not find enough people to hire, and they knew others in the industry could not find enough good people to hire, so they created a business unit around training. They moved their headquarters from Santa Barbara to Wichita, Kansas, and there's only one reason anyone would do that, that's taxes. They found themselves in Wichita. They connected with a blindness agency there called envision that I have done lots of great projects with in the past. And they were talking to them about employment and the fact that only 35% of us are working, and the fact that there are 750,000 open jobs in cybersecurity on any given day in our country. And envision asked, Have you thought about training and employing blind people in cybersecurity and novacoast? Honestly, as many, many employers would say, No, we've never thought. We've never thought about that never, never crossed our minds. Tell Tell us more. So envision and novakos partnered. They made the novakos training program accessible.   17:57 They branded it the apex program,   18:01 and set it up with vocational rehabilitation state agency in the state of Kansas, and they waited for the students to come, and the students did not come. So at the point where dan met a co founder of novacoas, they had had the program in place for several months were disappointed that they weren't having students register. It wasn't working. Dan suggested they contact me. So they contacted me, and fast forward again. I've partnered with the novacoas program, thanks to Dan Berlin, thanks to Jack Chen, thanks to Race Across America, and we have the program set up in 16 states now. There are 32 students in process going to be earning their network plus and security plus certifications. Our target is 400 blind people a year, going through the 10 work, virtual training, becoming certified and entering cyber, cyber security careers, so that that is an example of a successful employment program that's having, making an impact. And turning back now to the film project, and I'm going to let Lucas talk about his vision. He has a great track record in creating social impact campaigns and movements around documentary films he's been involved in. And the vision here is for the film to be a catalyst to bring together, resources, stakeholders, be a nexus of connections that will spawn dozens more Apex programs will will find programs that are working and help fund them that will facilitate sharing of knowledge, that will connect employers with training. Programs will connect Guide. Government, corporate, nonprofit and community stakeholders together in that shared effort to really, truly change the employment situation for people who are blind and have other disabilities. So I've just said a lot of words. I'm going to let Lucas take it from here and talk to you about the film, his vision, where we're at with the process of creating this really, truly innovative social impact effort. And then we will let you know how we can all connect one another. And then we'll see if anyone has questions or comments or thoughts, but for now, the talking stick goes to Lucas Behnken,   20:49 thank you so much, and wonderful to hear your story. And so just thrilled with our partnership and getting to work with you and be integrated into all that you've built over over many years. How many years now? 5045   21:13 and well,   21:14 I don't know. You can go back to first grade, I guess so,   21:18 over 55 from that first year when Mrs. Summers taught me to read Braille and convinced me that I could be and do whatever I wanted to be or to   21:28 that's where it starts, as as you point out. And I came to this project also through Dan Berlin, who had a financial advisor that was connected to a business partner of mine, and at that time, Dan had finished the race with Jack Chen, and they had filmed the footage, which Jack had a strong vision for, is to start to make this film, and make and film the race in order to highlight the story and continue to carry on the message that they had carried with the race. So the race itself was a call to action and highlighting the unemployment rate of the blind, and so they spoke about that during the making at their events, in the early promotion of the race itself, what they were racing for, and then along the way, they captured the entire race. And at the end of that, they had the footage, and they didn't have someone to complete and turn it into a film. And so Dan had reached out to my partner, and that partner reached out to me and asked me if I would talk to him about what to do with this footage and how to have it have impact. And so we spent a few months I was introduced to Jack through through that conversation around consulting, and I started to talk to them about my work, and I put a lot of focus and select the products that I participate in based on if, if I see a way to use the film as a tool to make true impact and true change and and long term change and enhance lives long term. And so I learned about this topic through them, sharing this with me, which was a really incredible experience, and to your point, Kirk, where you have these experiences of talking to organizations even about employing the blind or low vision that they had not heard of that I also was in that situation. I didn't understand or know much about it at all, and I was humbled and honored to join with them in putting this film together, turning this footage into a larger project. And what we came up with was I would put together a team to go back and interview all of the subjects that raced, all the crew members and family and friends of those that were blind, that raced and were championing this cause. And so I brought on a director named Ramon Fernandez, and him and a gentleman named Arturo, went around the country and filmed these interviews, and then we spent the next year and a half putting together the movie. And during that time, Dan and Jack were very involved in curating the Edit, because the purpose of the film was to make sure that we had this message deeply embedded in the story. And so they were very involved in that. We were very intentional about Brad. To sing what we preached. And we hired a wonderful composer named Stephen let's who is blind, and he has a couple of organizations, one called Able artists. And he brought on also blind musicians and vocalists to create the score. And we brought on a sound mixer, who was blind, and a sound designer, and then we were very focused on including an audio description track in the process of creating the film, because often with films, a film is finished and mixed and mastered and delivered, and then the distribution company is required to put on subtitles and put on an audio description track. But what that does is it makes it difficult for it to have focus or attention or be thought of as a part of the film, rather than an afterthought. And so we worked with the audio describer, a man named Joel Snyder, who we also interviewed in the film. So he's in it talking about audio description, and then he audio describes the film, and he would ask us to leave longer amount of time between certain areas so that he could describe what's going on in the film and introduce people in a different way, versus just having a subtitle come up with their name that you could not hear. And that was a integral part of how we put the film together, and we finished the film close to a year ago. And a big part of my company as well is that social action campaign, distribution strategy. And I really preach that independent filmmakers and documentarians, they put together budgets to complete a movie, but they're solely dependent on a distributor to distribute it, and that's not a negative thing in itself, but those distributors don't have their attention on the longevity of the campaign as much as they do making a large, impactful release. And so we we as Sterling light, really strive to focus on building a budget that matches the making of the film, to build the strategy around the release of this film, and so we've put together additional funds for funding the social action impact team that we put together based on each specific film, so a lot of distributors or production companies might have a marketing team or a social impact team within the company. I differ in that. I believe that gathering the people who are going to work on this film from that community and who care about that topic and that community, and so that's what we're presently building right now and over the past eight months, Jack and I and Dan for a first few months, and then Jack and I for the past five or six months, have been traveling the country, doing private screenings and building advocates, finding Our team members for the social action campaign and building funds for the strategic screening plan to build the momentum and build the awareness around what we're doing and what we're where we come to realize through doing these screenings, through talking with all of the organizations through Discovering, how do people react to the film, what does it cause them to believe and understand? And then, how do we curate the calls to action based on those responses? And the largest area that we've decided to tackle at the top level is being a white glove concierge service of sorts, to where individuals who see the film most most of the responses have been that they've been opened up into a whole new understanding of what the capabilities and possibilities are of those that are blind, specifically in high level positions in the workforce. And so we realized that often the organizations, as you described, like novacas, haven't heard of these positions being filled. By those that are blind, and then the the fact that you describe of how many people are unemployed, that are capable, that are college educated, prepared and ready, but no one knows they can do these things. And so we want to be a catch all for for providing the companies with the people, and connecting the people to the companies now that they've become aware. And the power of a film is that it is a massive marketing tool. You can hit the movie theaters, you can hit the screen platforms. You can hit the entire entertainment area, which we were also very focused on making this film. It's, it's an entertaining sports adventure film that highlights this cause. But it's, it's not just a fact driven documentary informing you of something. And so merging those two things together makes it   31:05 an entertainment experience, and so when we release in a large platform and do a global release, we need to be prepared for the response that people have. I've found that in a lot of experiences, individuals will have a large film come out, and the in influx of interest happens, but there's no team there to take it on, and so you'll have a two people at a production company getting 1600 responses to every type of social media and and trying to find out how to get involved, and there's nowhere to take it. And if that happens for five to six weeks, it all dies out. And so the reason we would delay this release and build this slow process of putting in the staff in place, putting in the function in place of this concierge service of the people trained to do this. And then as we build the early phase of partners and and the interest in the campaign will be prepared when we go out to to truly make change and track it. That's another major gap that we've discovered. Is that the known percentage rates of unemployed is there, but we actually, or I haven't, discovered that the numbers are actually known or when people get hired, where? Where can we find that? And so we want to be a hub of starting to even backtrack and then track when individuals get hired, listing them and how long they stay employed, because that's a large part of the topic as well, is these individuals keeping and retaining jobs and lasting and building wealth and capacity, and so that's, that's the top level of our vision.   33:11 Lucas, I have a question for you. You, you said, so now we're in this private screening phase. You just did one in Atlanta on June 27 we'll have a screening for a small select Group here in Seattle. So if anyone on the call either live here or seeing the recording between now and June 27 if you would like to talk about coming to see the screening, please get in touch with me, or Lucas through LinkedIn, or our email addresses, which we will give you. And then, after the private screening, then comes 20 big red carpet premier Galo, wonderful events. When everything's in place, the funding is in place to put together the social impact team, the strategies can be implemented, etc, but right now, we're at the private screening phase. And you said part of the private screening is to gage how the viewers have experienced change in what they believe and understand. And you had also mentioned that before you were connected with Dan and Jack, that your level of understanding of the dynamics and issue issues around employment people are blind was was negligible. If that's a that's a right characterization. But Can, can you just talk a little bit about yourself. You've been working in this space now for a year. What? How? How have your beliefs and understanding changed?   34:50 So about my beliefs over the last few years working on this project,   34:54 just your your beliefs and understanding around employment of people who are blind capability. At ease, what, what, what you what were your beliefs and understanding before you got connected with Jack and Dan and Race Across America on the project and   35:13 how those have evolved?   35:14 Absolutely, yes, you know, I've always, and I say always, you know, as as far back as my my working life,   35:26 had had a very   35:32 positive view on the possibilities of anybody being able to do anything, and so that that core belief has stemmed through a lot of a lot of my work and my nonprofit work in Los Angeles and into Atlanta, I've, I've always been a champion for never assuming that I know much about the capabilities of someone, and then having witnessed, I guess, from early on, I feel like I'd always witnessed that somebody who didn't think they could do Something did something, or someone that others thought wasn't able, wasn't capable of doing something, did them, and somehow that stuck with me, and in my early years in Los Angeles, I formed a non profit that has now branched into training former incarcerated in filmmaking, and in that subject there, there's a core, you know, belief in in the culture that individuals who have been former incarcerated a are either criminals or not capable of of doing something because they were in jail. And so I remember going through that journey of of having to reshape individuals preconceived ideas about someone who might have served time, whether two years or 40 years, and who they are versus who people think they are. And went through that, that experience, and then I,   37:30 about 10 years ago, worked on a film   37:34 titled Molly, where I I was also able to you, use this, this method of social action campaign with a documentary, and that that topic was adoption and foster care. And the gentleman in the film, Molly had rescued, and now has rescued over 18,000 children off of the streets and similar, individuals assumed that street kids aren't capable of things or or not smarter, not able or must have been there for something that they did. And what that film shows, and what Molly shows throughout his work of 30 years is that the kids that he rescued, the schools that they formed, became the most well respected and successful in grades that that were in the country. Their athletic teams became the number one in the country. They succeeded to going to the Olympics. All of these otherwise assumed individuals that could not do, I witnessed do. And so by the time that I came across Jack and Dan with this film. I think my belief in the possibilities was high and and my response to the situation was shocking and not not having realized this whole area of blindness and low vision was, was such a major topic. But I, I was, it was like, it was like, that experience where, like, Oh, of course this, this is a problem. And of course they can, individuals that are blind can do all of these positions that I just didn't think about, and so I was convinced quickly of the capabilities, and then mainly, I've just been amazed and and inspired to. So what I've found is it really inspires everyone to overcome whatever their considered adversity or considered disability is. I've found that that's been an experience that we've had with this film, is that most people relate it to being able to overcome and live with who you are, and it really reshapes the word of of disability. And it's that's a difficult but important topic to address, because some some individuals so called disabilities are obvious, and some aren't. And then those ones that we consider obvious are labeled as the ones with disabilities, when in fact, we all have them. All have things that that we have to master, that are different than the other things that other people have to master. And so I found this, this, I found this encouraging, that that it levels the playing field of what, what we consider capable or not capable of anything of any number of positions, jobs or just tasks in life.   41:26 And let's talk about Molly a little bit more as a model of a social impact campaign, and how it relates to what we're trying to do here with surpassing site. So you worked on an incredible documentary portraying one man's terrific work in Kenya, rescuing 18,000 kids from the street. Now that film could have been streaming on a streaming service. Lots of people could have watched it. Lots of people could have been moved, saying, that's incredible. Could have had a thought, how can I help? And nothing could have happened. However you structured it, in a way that lots of things did happen. And that's the intent here with surpassing site, is to structure this social impact effort so that lots of things happened as a result of people seeing the film. So if you could talk a little bit about how you what you put together, what happened in conjunction with the film being seen by people and what the impacts were, I think that'll help people understand what we're trying to achieve here with surpassing sight. Yes,   42:32 absolutely. Yeah, that that film, in a similar way, was a gentleman who had worked with this, this man for quite a while, and there had been a book written on him. And this man, John came to myself and my business partner Scott Hayes, and asked Scott if he would put together a documentary. And Scott and I partnered. Scott brought me on to produce this documentary on this gentleman named Molly. And John financed the documentary as a way to to instead of putting donor dollars directly towards the organization, he put donor dollars towards a film to be a way to share the message, and be a marketing tool to spread the word about what this man is doing. And we put the film together. We made the film, and it was about his whole life, of a 30 year journey of him being an orphan child to becoming very wealthy, and you know, one of the wealthiest gentlemen in the country, to realizing that he had forgotten his past and forgotten those that were on the streets like him, and decided to sell everything he owned to start rescuing children. And he rescued these children one at a time, and ended up turning his whole life into rescuing more children and building a place for them, and he's now built this entire eco village and sustainable home and model for taking care of others. And so we finished the film. And to your point, there was an opportunity to sell directly to a streamer and release it and have a decent marketing campaign, and we won a bunch of film festivals and took it around in in that way, but I really encouraged my my partners, to take the chance on finding a way to build a campaign with some other partners, and so I did some private screenings with a few people through my lawyer and a few other contacts and agents and managers, and did a private screening for a gentleman who was so moved by the. Film, and that he said, I want to take this film on and fund the social action campaign. And at the time, that was going to be a 500 grand commitment, and we would build a company and start planning this social action campaign and decide what it would be it, it ended up being $2 million towards this campaign, and we built a company called for good, and there was about 16 staff members, and bought a building, and worked out of this building for a year and a half on figuring out the best ways to make the most impact, the most change, and reach as many people as possible and around the cause of you know, for that film, when people finish the film, they were inspired to help a child, but we wanted To inspire people to be like Molly, not just only give directly to moly, because we knew that would occur, and that was low hanging fruit, in a way, and and so how do we enhance the reach of getting a message out that's about an Unknown gentleman in Kenya, which is not the most sought after type of project for the US distribution market. And so over that year and a half, we formed partnerships, we connected with musicians to write songs, some of the greatest songwriters in the world. We then secured what's called a Fathom event with AMC, which is a one night event. And we were intentional about going that route because to rally everyone on one or two or three nights in a row around an event that you want to communicate to them. That is an excellent route. And with the Fathom Events, you're allowed to curate the first five minutes where the trailer space is. You can put in your own content of highlighting other organizations. You can make your own videos and put that before and after. You can have Q and A's after the events. And so we we secured 1000 screens to do a three night event, which was their largest event at the time and still is having a three night event. And in order to determine how to fill these seats and reach people where they're at, we came up with the idea to partner with as many nonprofits and organizations in the United States that we could, and so with our team, we called every single one of them, and we partnered with 143 adoption and foster care agencies in the United States, and a lot of those had numerous branches. So, you know, there's quite a few 100 base camps of individuals and organizations that committed to not only bringing people to the theaters, but we worked with AMC to allow us to have a volunteer outside of the door of the theater, which is uncommon. It's not common for them to let filmmakers be in you know, have have that space, but they were for the cause. And you're always casting the vision for the cause when you're working with these these organizations, because they're very interested. There's just a lot of rules and regulations that you have to navigate, and so to provide that time to be able to do that is important. But we were able to get them to be allowed to have a table outside of every theater, so that in Boise, Idaho, when someone came out of the theater, they and felt led to help a child. They they were already moved by moly, and had a way to access and connect to Molly children's family and be connected to them and reach out to them. And we had the website embedded in the film and a call to action there. But then there was someone outside the door with their flyers and their current need. So someone says, I want to help a child. And they say, well, there are six children in city hall right now. If, if you want to get involved, here's our program. You can come to this class and talk about being a foster parent, or do you want to adopt? And that that connected 1000s of people to hundreds of organizations and caused 10s of 1000s of children to be adopted or fostered, or, you know, connected with parents, connected to kids that have aged out of foster care. And along with that, once we were done. With this theatrical we had an eight week study guide that these organizations had the DVD and the link to the film, and a study guide to have accessible in part of their programming of when someone was new to being interested in foster adoption, they showed them this film because it caused their their heart to be moved enough to take the next step and and see the possibilities of how much you can do. That's what that film did. And so, so that was, that was a major part of the impact campaign. And then we've continued to do events up until now. This was six years ago, and Molly is still a few weeks ago, toured 10 locations and screened the film and talked about his work. And we've continued to get updates from these organizations about the impact made. And to date, I would say it's around $40 million that has been donated to Molly children's family since the making the film available. And so what was considered a few $100,000 a year nonprofit is now close to $5 million a year. Nonprofit that's that consistently brings   51:32 resources to the organization for more kids to be impacted in in Kenya and then beyond. So that's a bit of the way that we strategize that, and to add on to that, two years after the premiere, and then we made it available on Amazon and all of the streaming services, and had it for rent and purchase. But about two years later, the same investor of the film wanted to do an update video. So we were engaged again, and we made a 20 minute update video. And my strategy with that video to release it, was releasing that along with a couple of dubbed language films. So we always had it in subtitles and other languages. But to do a dub, you hire an entire other cast to do the film in that language. So we released German and Spanish dubbed version along with this 20 minute update video, and the investors wanted to make it available for free, and so I partnered with 14 large influencers on Facebook, and we had built a very large Facebook account around 800,000 members, and so our plan was to stream live this 20 minute video and the film. But in Spanish, Spain and Mexico released the Spanish dub and in Germany, released the German and those 14 influencers on Facebook restrained our live stream on their feeds. And there's some back end ways you can do that. And those pages, some had 12 million followers, some had 16 million, some had 4 million. But that one stream, which I released over five time zones so that it would hit at a certain time across the world,   53:31 was viewed 255,000   53:33 times. So it's really the largest live stream on Facebook to ever have been accomplished. And that was and then all we were promoting is the release of the film on YouTube for free in 16 languages and two Dubs, and then links to Molly. And we then told all our partner organizations this is happening. And if you want to push any of your activities around what you're doing for your work, feel free. And so that was another angle that we did for continuing the long term social impact   54:09 so Lucas, as you mentioned, every documentary, every social impact campaign built around that documentary is is unique, flavored, flavored by the people who get involved. Those people get involved because they're passionate about a cause. So the surpassing site social impact Initiative is a sprout which we are tending and feeding, and we are looking for people who are interested in participating in small, medium or large ways. So if people on the live stream now are viewing the recording, would like to raise their hand and say, How can we help make the surpassing site and. Should have a truly transformational effort in changing the employment situation for people who are blind. How? How should they get in touch with you?   55:09 I'm available at Lucas at surpassing site.com and I formed a foundation so it's Jack at surpassing site.com and our foundation will be running this whole campaign, and there's a fund that's being raised to take the film around prior to distribution, and then Jack's larger vision is a 30 to 40 year plan to have a $70 million endowment over that long term effort to truly provide resources to all the organizations that do work in this space. And that's one note that I want to leave with, or at least say is that there is so much incredible work being done. And to your point, Kirk, you did so much at every organization you were with, you're still doing it and see success all of the time. We're just able to highlight that in a big way through a film. And that's what our big hope is, is, how do we highlight all of the all the work being done, and have a hub for people to come and see all the work being done? Because without something like this, it's it's not able to be seen.   56:25 Great if people want to get in touch with me. LinkedIn is a great way to do it. Or my email is Kirk Adams, 00, [email protected], I will happily talk to anyone, anytime, anywhere, if it leads to greater opportunities for people are blind and have other disabilities to experience the dignity of meaningful employment. And let's watch the trailer, and then we'll see if anyone has any questions or comments. Well, in in in respect of time you want to see the trailer, email Lucas with a k, l, u, K, A, S, at surpassing site.com and let's see if there are any questions or comments from anyone who's with us. It was playing   57:10 it, but it didn't have the audio. But at surpassing sitemovie.com is two different trailers, and there's the audio described version and the non audio described version just at surpassing site.com and that's our basic site, with just the trailers. And then we can send you the campaign vision deck. Should you have interest? Perfect.   57:37 Any questions or comments from anyone who's been with us for the last hour, hearing none we'll thank you all for whoever was with us today, live whoever is viewing this recording, wherever you may be. And please do check out surpassing site and join us in changing the employment rate for people who are blind. And thanks Lucas for your time. Really appreciate it.   58:03 Thank you so much. Thank you for all that you're doing as well. Glad to be along for the ride, peace, onward and upward, onward and upward.   58:14 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact. You.  

Dr. Kirk Adams hosted a webinar on disability inclusion in cybersecurity, highlighting the Apex program, which prepares blind individuals for cybersecurity careers. The program, developed by Novacoast, offers a 10-week training course for CompTIA Network+ and Security+ certifications, costing $7,500. The program aims to place 400 blind individuals annually in cybersecurity roles, addressing a significant employment gap. Key features include flexible learning, employer support, and a strong industry network. The webinar emphasized the transferable skills from contract management services to cybersecurity and the potential for career growth, with starting salaries around $35,000 and potential earnings of $95,000. Outline Introduction and Overview of the Webinar Speaker 1 introduces the podcast, emphasizing its focus on disability rights, employment, and inclusion. Speaker 2, Dr. Kirk Adams, welcomes everyone to the monthly live stream webinar titled "Supercharge your bottom line through Disability Inclusion." Dr. Adams introduces himself as the Managing Director of Innovative Impact LLC and shares his background in disability inclusion. He introduces two teammates, David Main and Katie McAuliffe, and welcomes a new team member, Kalana. The agenda includes a video about the Apex program, perspectives from David and Katie, and a Q&A session. Background of the Apex Program Dr. Adams recounts the history of the Apex program, which began during his tenure at the American Foundation for the Blind (AFB). The AFB was named as the third central nonprofit agency under the Ability One program, leading to a five-year cooperative agreement. The research phase identified three lines of business: contract management, digital health, and cybersecurity. Despite the pandemic, the research highlighted cybersecurity as a promising field for people who are blind. Dr. Adams transitioned to his consulting practice, Innovative Impact, and connected with Dan Berlin and Jack Chen, who were involved in the Race Across America. Development of the Apex Program Jack Chen and Dan Berlin were organizing the Race Across America and seeking sponsors. AFB sponsored the race, and Dan Berlin introduced Dr. Adams to Novacoast, a cybersecurity company interested in hiring blind individuals. Dr. Adams met with Novacoast's CEO, Paul Anderson, and was given the green light to develop the Apex program. Katie McAuliffe joined the team later, bringing extensive experience from IBM and Novell. The Apex program was created to prepare blind and visually impaired individuals for certifications in networking and cybersecurity. Personal Stories and Success of the Apex Program A video featuring personal stories of individuals involved in the Apex program is shown, highlighting their struggles and successes. One participant, David Jr., shares his journey from a severe accident to pursuing a cybersecurity degree. Curtis Jackson, another participant, discusses his experience with unemployment and how the Apex program changed his life. The video emphasizes the potential for blind individuals to succeed in cybersecurity careers. David Jr. and Curtis both found employment at Novacoast, proving the program's effectiveness. Vision and Future of the Apex Program David Main outlines his vision for the program's growth, including expanding to more states and potentially international markets. The program aims to offer high school students the opportunity to earn certifications before graduation. The goal is to support students beyond entry-level training, providing further certifications and job opportunities. Dr. Adams expresses his admiration for the program, stating it aligns with his career-long mission to create opportunities for people who are blind. Katie McAuliffe discusses the unique features of Novacoast and how the company's support enhances the Apex program. Career Opportunities and Industry Support Katie McAuliffe explains the various career paths available in cybersecurity, from entry-level roles to specialized positions like threat hunters and penetration testers. The industry is supportive of continuous learning and certification stacking, allowing for career advancement. Novacoast's annual cybersecurity conference provides opportunities for graduates to network with industry leaders. The company's staffing division, Novaco Staffing, helps place graduates in positions. Dr. Adams emphasizes the importance of vocational rehabilitation partnerships and other funding models to support the program. Q&A Session and Closing Remarks Amanda Gomez from Vibrant Works asks about accessing the training independently of state vocational rehabilitation. Dr. Adams confirms that alternative funding models are possible and shares examples of successful partnerships. Katie McAuliffe provides pricing information for the program, which costs $7,500 and includes both CompTIA certifications. The program is designed to be flexible, with students having 10 weeks to complete the training, but the pace can be adjusted. Dr. Adams invites further questions and encourages viewers to visit the Apex Program website for more information. 00:00 Music. 00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams, 00:36 and welcome everybody to my monthly live stream webinar, webinar called Supercharge your bottom line through Disability Inclusion, I am Dr Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington, where it's pouring rain outside. For those who don't know me, I am the Manning managing director of a consulting practice called innovative impact. LLC and I work with companies to help accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in the workforce and to help them supercharge their bottom line through Disability Inclusion. Immediate Past President and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind. I before that held the same roles at the lighthouse for the blind Incorporated, and I am featuring today a wonderful partner Apex program, which prepares blind people for careers in cybersecurity. And I have two of my Apex program teammates here, David main and Katie McAuliffe, and you'll hear from both of them a bit later. I also want to welcome kalana to the innovative impact team. She joined us Monday, and she'll be working with all of you to share social media and so welcome. Thank you. Thank you, kalana, so the and then we'll after I tell, after I tell my story of what brought us all here today. Then we'll show you a six minute video produced by working nation about the apex program, to give you a flavor of what we're doing here in creating these career opportunities for people who are blind. And then we'll hear perspectives from David and Katie. We'll make sure you know how to connect with Apex program, and then we'll have some time for discussion Q and A. So the story really has two, two interweaving narratives. The first is, when I was at the American Foundation for the Blind, we were given the opportunity to be named as the third central nonprofit agency under the Ability One program, which is a federal procurement and employment program that allows nonprofits employing people with disabilities to obtain government contracts. And we entered into a five year cooperative agreement with the AbilityOne commission, and the first phase was called research and study, and we we spent two years doing in depth research. AFB is a renowned research organization, and our charge was to identify three new lines of business that could be introduced into the Ability One program that would create career pathways into competitive, integrated employment and fulfilling careers for people who are blind in knowledge based work. And we identified three lines of business. One was contract management or civilian federal agencies. The second was digital health, or telehealth, and the third was cyber security. And the criteria we were using in our research work, we wanted to find industries with a wide range of career paths, industries that have projected long term above average growth and employment opportunities, industries where there were career paths that were accessible to people who are blind and have other disabilities, industries where advanced degrees were not required, 04:21 industries that had 04:24 strong infrastructure around commonly accepted certifications, industry associations, and finally, industries that that had indicated that They were being proactive around Diversity Equity and Inclusion and cybersecurity fit all of those criteria. We finished our research and study phase, delivered our line line of business analyzes to the AbilityOne commission, and then the pandemic set upon us, and we did not see a way to. Operationalize at that point. So we exited the cooperative agreement after phase one. But cyber security is something I immerse myself in for several years, as far as a field of endeavor for careers, for people who are blind. Fast forward a little bit as I made my change then stepped out of my role at AFB and launched my consulting practice. Innovative impact I did. I did what they call activate your network. So I went, went through my LinkedIn, and reached out to people that I had great relationships with and shared my passion for employment of people with disabilities and let them know I was setting off on a new adventure and was just looking for fun, innovative, high impact projects with cool people that would accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in the workforce. And I reach out to a blind friend and colleague named Dan Berlin, and now I'll start the second part the second narrative. In 2020 as a FB was preparing for our centennial, centennial year in 2021 I was contacted by a blind friend and colleague named Jack Chen, who at that time was Assistant General Counsel at Google working in New York at Chelsea Market offices. Afbs offices were about 10 blocks from his when I first moved to New York to go to AFB in 2016 Jack reached out and said, We should meet. We did. We became friends. He reached out to me in 2020 to say that he and a blind person named Dan Berlin who I didn't know yet, we're putting together a team to do the race across America. And the Race Across America is a single stage bicycle race, the longest in the world, from the Pacific Ocean and Santa Barbara, California, Santa Monica California to Annapolis, Maryland. And a single stage race means someone on the team is always peddling. And they put together four tandem bicycle teams with a blind professional on the back and sighted guide on the front, and they wanted to put together the logistics to compete in this race, and they were looking for sponsors. So AFB had put together a budget to celebrate our centennial in 2021 and we had designated $25,000 to sponsor something cool. And I passed Jack and Dan on to our communications lead, and she thought it was a perfect fit. So we were the lead sponsor at AFB of the race across America. And footnote, there's a documentary film called surpassing site, and Jack and team will be my guest here next month, last Thursday in May, and talk about the documentary film. In any case, I had reached out to Dan as I activated my network and told him I was looking for fun, innovative, high impact things to do with cool people. And he called me about a month later, and he said my wife and I were on vacation in the Seychelles, and my wife went on a dive trip, and she met a lady who was a co founder of a cybersecurity company called novacoast, and they are very interested in creating a significant presence in cybersecurity for people who are blind. And David main will tell you how that program was developed, but they were just at the beginning stages. They, as a wonderful, privately held entrepreneurial company, put resources in places where they want great outcomes. So I had the opportunity to speak with their CEO, Paul Anderson, who was here in the Seattle area. We talked about the possibilities of engaging significant numbers of blind people in the cybersecurity industry, and I was given the green light to join David and his Apex program team. And then Katie joined us a bit later. So with that, if we could show you the video and give you the flavor of where we're at with the apex program, and then we'll hear from David and Katie. 09:44 I've tried to give my kids the best life that I can. I've been a good dad. I've sucked as a mother, but I've been a good dad. Every parent wants to provide the best they can for their kids, and knowing that you have a disability. That is going to take years to recover from. I think that wears on me. That's a lot of pressure. A young man ran a light at 70 miles per hour, hitting me so hard that I wound up breaking both my ankles, on my ribs, damage to my head, damage to my arms, my retina was partially detached to later fully detached. The last few months before I lost my eye, I was taking Vicodin like Tic Tacs. Within a year of that, I was divorced and raising the kids on my own. After six years, I returned to school to kind of recreate who I was. I'd always loved computers, and David Jr had started at a local two year college taking network classes, so I started taking the same degrees he did. And the student walked up and said, you know, if you take 12 more credit hours, you can get your cybersecurity degree too. I know Inkling what cybersecurity was. I'm like, but that sounds cool. I'll do that. The shortage for cybersecurity analysts is massive, hacking, ransomware, malware is prevalent and getting worse, cybersecurity analysts, or SOC analysts, analyze the suspicious activity and try to prevent it before the hackers can cause any damage. Colleges, universities, two year schools cannot produce enough analysts, so there's a great need to fill these roles. Once I got my degrees, I started looking for work. I wanted to work at a specific company. I met with the recruiter, and unbeknownst to me, that recruiter had decided that, because I had one eye, I could not work on computers all day long. Eventually, I found novapost. They hired me in as a security operations center analyst. I'd come down here to meet with some organizations, and one that I met with was envision, they are a nonprofit that works with the blind and visually impaired community. I had no clue of the unemployment situation for the blind and visually impaired. Most of the jobs that they work are menial, minimum wage type positions. The high end jobs were working in a call center, and that there was really no better option. After that meeting, the light bulb went off. There's a great unemployment in the working age of people that are officially impaired, and there's a great employment gap in this field. So my boss, Paul and I developed the apex program, which is a 10 week training program where we prepare people that are blind and visually impaired for certification exams in networking and cybersecurity. I know you can be a blind cybersecurity analyst, because I have individuals that are blind that are doing it. 13:10 I am Curtis Jackson. I was born blind due to congenital glaucoma, and glaucoma runs in my family. Growing up in a town with the only blind person I did kind of lean into the idea that people thought that I needed to be in the special ed classes, even though I knew I didn't belong there. After I left Louisiana Tech, I bounced around for a few years, and then I got a telemarketing job. It's not what I want to do, but if I don't do it, I'm not going to be able to take care of my family, I did that for a couple years, and then I get told we're in your positions, so you have six months to find another job. Some notification on Facebook came up about the cybersecurity program called the apex program, and so I filled out everything that I needed to and got started on May 1. I'm like, this is a 10 week program. We'll just see what happens. What happened was, at the end of the program, David was so impressed with me, he said he wanted to get on a call. And next thing I know, I'm getting an email that says, novakos offer letter. So I immediately go to my boss's office and put in my notice. 14:27 Curtis is our first student that graduated to come to work at novacoast. Just amazing. From day one, he was like, I can't wait to work. You know? I can't wait to change careers, to get a career. Our CEO told me, If you come across a student that you think would be a good fit for our culture and that can do the job, let me know. And I Ding, ding, ding, he's the guy. 14:50 It feels great to say I am a SOC one analyst. I think having this job will give me a chance to do more things. With my family, and hopefully I can use this experience and opportunity to help others change their lives. In 2017 15:10 a recruiter decided that with one eye working, that I couldn't do the job. A few years later, we proved that somebody that can't see very well could do the job. And yesterday, we proved that somebody that can't see it all can do 15:28 the job. I look at it as me starting this job to help blaze a trail, working with others and pioneering so other people can start this job all across the country, across the world. 15:42 Nobody gets through life alone without help. It just it's impossible, but to be able to know that I am helping people get a better career, I could not be happier. Yes, blind people can do this, and we need to do this nice father, me too. 16:07 Well, I want to thank Joan Lynch, Ramona schindelheim, Melissa Panzer at the working nation team, for creating that and I'll thank Google for covering the cost of working nations. Great work on on the documentary. So, so with that, David, let's fast forward a little bit to where we are. Now you want to talk about, maybe fill up, fill in a little bit, anything that couldn't fit in a six minute video, and talk about there's a lot. Talk about your talk about your vision. Talk about your vision for the future of the program. 16:47 Yeah, so my vision is to see the program grow. Because of we don't generally take money from students. We rely on state vocational rehab agencies to cover the funding, which means we have to get set up with each state individually. So my vision is for us to be able to eventually get set up with every state and eventually take the program International, providing more opportunities around the US right now, I believe we're 1214, states, so we have a lot of ground to catch up to, but the vision is to keep growing the program. We want to do things like offer high school seniors, high school juniors, an opportunity to start earning these certifications while they're wrapping up high school, so they can go right into their chosen careers when they graduate, just like everybody else does. We want to expand what we offer to give further certifications. Once someone's in the workforce, there's a lot of work to be done. What we're teaching now is the entry level, the basics of what you need to start the job. But we want to support our students along the way. We want to see the staff augmentation section of the program to expand to more companies. We want to to get more companies to sign up and say, hey, we'll interview your your students for positions. So that's that's kind of the focus as to is growth, both in the US and in the job market. 18:36 Thanks, David and I, 18:39 I've said this numerous times since I've been involved with the apex program, I have been devoting my professional career to creating opportunities for people who are blind for 30 years plus. And if I were going to design something from scratch, it would look an awful lot like the apex program. And love for Katie to talk about how the apex program fits into the cybersecurity world, since she has been immersed there for a while now, and also some of the unique features of the entrepreneurial company, novacoast, some of their other activities that fit so well, making the apex program so dynamic. 19:25 Katie, great. Thank you, Kirk. I really enjoyed being here today. David, I can't watch that video without getting teary every time. So that was just so beautiful. So yes, as Kirk said, I work for novacost and have been at novacoast to be 14 years in June. And prior to that, I come from IBM and from Novell, or basically other it computer cybersecurity companies. So that has been my entire career is working in that space and managing teams, etc. Are in that space. Novacoast is private, no outside investment. I think we're going into our we're in our 28th year, I believe. So we've been in business quite a long time. Fabulous expertise in a very boutique area of cybersecurity, security, software development, identity and access management, but really very focused on security and high end security. We have our clients are really the global financials who have very sophisticated security systems. And the reason why I say all this is when you think about the apex program and the training that we are talking about here today, the fact that apex is a division of novacost, which is a true long term entrepreneurial cybersecurity company just gives a lot of benefits to the program. David came up through our security operations centers as an analyst. He wrote the curriculum for this has a great background in it. And then the other organizations, like Kirk mentioned, novacoast being the parent company, apex is a subsidiary or division. And then we also have novaco staffing. So for a very long time, we've been doing staffing and placements of high end engineers and developers in our customer base or with other organizations. So novaco staffing is going to support apex. We also have a division called novacoas Federal. We do business with 40 federal agencies. They've been working with us and some of our graduates in terms of placements with the federal government. And we have a cybersecurity conference we run every year with 120 CISOs. So we've developed this whole community of organizations that stand around Apex willing to support us and support our graduates. And to Kirk's point, I sort of agree. It's a perfect storm of a number of things, and so we're very grateful for that. 21:56 When we we have a newsletter. We just issued on our second one this week, I will invite anyone who's interested in the apex program to go to the apex Program website, which is www dot the apex program.com there is an inquiry form, so if you are a prospective student or employer or service provider, please fill out the form. We will happily dialog with you whatever your level of interest is. A couple things to add. So the White House, July last year, created a national strategic framework on workforce development and education for cybersecurity. And they cited in their 62 page document that at that point in time, there were 755,000 open jobs in cybersecurity. And I believe the newsletter cites 63,000 open jobs this week for those holding the certifications that the apex program prepares people for program is very young. We are very much in the spirit of continuous quality improvement. We are evolving as we go the program is on a new learning management system. As of April 1, there are four distinct different accessible ways that students can access the curriculum, depending upon their preferred learning style, certifications, network plus and security plus our industry recognized the certified find bodies called CompTIA. The testing body is Pearson. The tests are accessible to screen readers. Students can access the curriculum virtually. It's designed as Curtis, mentioned in the video to be a 10 week program. 20 hours per week is the pace that is preferred. We are nothing if not flexible, and students can access that 20 hours and get that done whatever works for them and their lifestyle. Students are monitored. There are daily quizzes. The learning management system gives visibility to student progress, and then if student seems to be getting off track a little bit, David main swoops in and touches base with the student, and they have conversations and one on one time until things are back on track, the tools that people use are basically web websites and search engines, so get questions often, what level of technical expertise does a person need to have in order to be successful? And taking the course, being certified, and doing the entry level work, and it's really being able to efficiently operate in a website and a search engine. Productivity tools commonly used in the industry have proven to be largely accessible, I think, as we can all say who are blind and been in this world, it's tough to find anything that's perfectly accessible, but I would say they're largely accessible. We have run across some issues. We're able, Katie is able to call up the C suite people at the people who produce these tools, and say, Hey, you have an accessibility problem. And as most of us also know, they'll say, Oh no, we're 508 compliant. And we'll be able to say, No, you still you have some issues. So we're using this as some action research. And 25:56 the long term, I believe, 25:59 when we're fully mature, we can move 400 26:03 blind and visually impaired individuals per year into cyber security careers. When you have those kinds of numbers, you can really impact the industry. Also add that were we're very open. Not only open, our mission calls for including people with other disabilities and military veterans. We began with focus on blindness and visual impairment that will continue to be one of the pillars of the program. Again, back to my comment that if I were able to create a program from scratch, it would look a lot like this. As I said, the environment is largely accessible. A majority of the jobs are remote. And as we all know, transportation is always a top barrier to successful employment. When, when we do research and we ask, what are the greatest barriers to employment, there's there's always a battle for number one and number two on one, employer, attitudes and transportation. Sometimes it's one, sometimes that's the other. When you do your research, another factor is degrees are not required. And I I say I'm a disability employment expert, not a cyber security expert, but I've learned that certifications are the key, and Katie can talk to this better than I but once you have your foot on the cybersecurity career ladder, there are many directions you can go, many careers you can pursue, depending on what you're interested in, and what I learned also is that once a person is employed at a company, this industry is very predisposed to supporting employees to grow and learn and to stack certifications, To add other certifications. Katie mentioned the Innovate division of Nova Coast hosting to cyber security conferences per year, where they fly in 120 or so chief information security officers, which I've learned are called CISOs. So 120 CSOs gathered for three or four days, and there's an opportunity to speak to each and every one of them. David and I attended two together, and we have a robust list of over 70 CSOs who indicated that they their teams would gladly interview graduates who come to them with a net network plus and security plus certifications. Again, there's the staffing division of Nova coast that can help with placement and connecting graduates with interviews and employment opportunities. And yeah, Katie, maybe you can expand a little bit on what the opportunities are once the person has completed the program, become certified and got that entry level security analyst job, where can people go from there? 29:10 Sure that's it's a great conversation to have. And I'm always conscious of the fact that if you don't come from the IT world or the IT industry, or what we really have only been calling cybersecurity for a few years. You don't know what the jobs are and what they entail. And a lot of times you don't know the acronyms, for instance, that we use all the time. So the best thing of all is, again, if you graduate from this program, when I should say, when you graduate, get your certificate of graduation, and then you'll take these two exams, and you get your certifications. You are prepared to be an entry level because of your certifications, your entry level, let's say a help desk person, a security analyst, as David and Curtis described in that video, the biggest. Is getting experience. So once you're in that job for six months or so, a year or so, you really can get better at it improving. There are, I don't even know how many more types of jobs and careers once you're in the door, there are things you could maybe you're interested in software development. We have, I think, a student in the class now, David that has a software development background, it's fine, get in the door, get in into a security role. There's always a need for software developers if you're in cybersecurity. Specifically, there's jobs like threat hunters that dial in or connect to organizations and roam around the networks and look for malware or malicious software, executables, et cetera. So that's a threat Hunter. There's penetration testers. If you think your security is great at your organization, then you usually pay someone to try to break in to your IT environment. But to the point that Kirk made, once you are in the computer industry or in this role in cybersecurity. You're not and you certainly don't have to do the same thing for the next five years. You can go left, you can go right, you can be promoted. And again, we have also jobs, marketing jobs and sales jobs. I mean, the industry has all those normal jobs as well. So it's really a great entree into the space. One other thing I wanted to mention Kirk that we you talked about briefly as well when we were talking about the White House and their strategy document on cybersecurity and workforce education, there's a federal government division called NIST, National Institute of Science and Technology. I believe NIST runs a website called Cyber seek. So again, it's C, y, B, E, R, S, E, E, K, cyberseek.com and that actually will tell you, you can click state by state by state, and you can see how many open cybersecurity jobs there are in your state. This data is gathered through the Bureau of Labor and Statistics constantly, and it's constantly updated. And if you scroll down to the bottom of that screen, you also see that there's a place where it says what types of certifications are required, how many jobs are available. For instance, that requiring the Security Plus certification, which is one of ours, and it's the second most requested certification in terms of open job opportunities. So anyway, I'm just saying like we we can talk about it all the time, how we have this real need to fill these roles, but the data is absolutely there, and you can check in your own state, and then you can see that a certificate like we'd give you in the apex program really is an entree into very viable employment. 32:47 And David, you, you were a hiring manager. You started at a security operations center, which I now know as a soc. You started working at a SOC, you managed a SOC, you needed to hire lots of people. And Apex program really started as you develop training programs for the general public, so that people, people could come work for you, get the training that they needed. And then at the evolved into the accessible, blindness focused Apex program. So could you talk a little bit about the characteristics that lead to success in the cybersecurity world? What types of folks tend to thrive? 33:30 So I would think 33:33 puzzle solvers, for lack of a better term, somebody that you know won't just look at something on the surface will will be a little bit analytical, a little OCD never hurts. I use my son as an example. He's got, he's autistic and has OCD, and he's probably our top analyst, but somebody that will pay attention to detail will for each of these events that come out, there's what we call a runbook so they don't no one has to recreate the wheel. There's a runbook that tells them if A happens to be if C happens to D. So someone that can follow instructions and will will follow along with what the run book says to do, be analytical. So the analyst job is to look at an event and determine, did it really happen, or is this a false alarm. And so you need that, that and that analytical, at least desire that to to dig into things, to go that next step. You don't have to be overly tech savvy to learn to do that. You know everything else can be taught. But if you if you can follow along instructions, and you're willing to take that extra step to find out what's really going on. To do some analysis to solve the puzzle you can do really well in these careers. 35:06 Terrific. Thanks. So again, I'm going to going to invite you, whether you're viewing with us, live or recorded session, if you have any level of interest in the apex program, please go to the web page. Fill out the inquiry form you'd love to talk to prospective employers, prospective students, prospective partners, service providers, folks in the nonprofit sector. You wonderful people who work in vocational rehabilitation. We're really building a village here. And welcome everybody who shares the common goal. Let's do something about the horrible employment outcomes for people who are blind that have not changed much in a long, long time. And again, I my vision is 400 blind people a year entering cybersecurity, and cumulatively, over 1012, years, four or five, 6000 blind people in cybersecurity, which will change an industry. So that's what I'm hoping to accomplish. Would love to work with you to make that happen again. It's www dot the apexprogram.com, and if we have any questions, comments, thoughts, this would be the time to speak up. 36:26 And Dr Adams, this is Amanda Gomez. I'm down in San Antonio at vibrant works, getting getting a nice overview. Yeah, what is the possibility of accessing the training independent of state? VR, 36:39 oh, yes, that was a great point. So we are open to any model that works. So my heartfelt conviction is I make every effort to create structures where vocational rehabilitation is a partner. They have funding that we taxpayers provide through the Department of Education. So I always, I always, want to fully involve vocational rehabilitation. We're certainly open to other funding models, and we'll give you one. We're working with the Chicago Lighthouse for the Blind. They do not have a training contract with the state of Illinois. They have a placement contract, but they have included the apex program now into grants, grant proposals that they've made. One is for a state of Illinois Workforce Development Grant, and they put in the tuition and cost for five students in that grant. And another is requesting funding to cover costs for 35 homeless veterans in the Chicago area to go through the program. So we're interested in flying people being trained, certified, hired, and there's, there's many, many paths to get there. So thank thank you for that question. Excellent question. I'm making a note to mention that next time, next time we talk about the program, 38:09 yeah, and I was going to say Kirk even envision, who was our first partner in Wichita, Kansas. Envision is using a grant to fund a number of the students that have that they have sent through Apex versus voc rehab. And I think it was a local grant. David might know more about it, but yeah, I mean the idea being, obviously, that we want to fund the students being able to take the course in whatever manner that works, the you know, the quickest, the fastest and the easiest. 38:39 Or is there pricing information on the website? 38:43 There is not pricing information on the website. The course is $7,500 and again, it's 10 weeks online on demand, about 20 hours a week. So 200 hours, we have found some students take a little longer than 10 weeks. Some actually take a little bit less, but that's about the expected time frame. And then that cost includes the ability for the students to take both exams. So CompTIA is network plus, and CompTIA Security plus twice. So every, everybody who takes these exams, every population cited none. There's a, you know, 30, 40% failure rate on the first time you take the test. I think it's 30% David, is that right? Anyway, they're hard tests, so we actually fund the ability for the students to take the test twice. And these are accessible, you know, if they can use JAWS or their screen reader, and we get that all set up for their ability to take those so that tuition includes all that. 39:46 Yeah, it's about a 30% sale rate. So regardless of site it not site it, experience doesn't matter. That's, you know, that's the way the exams are. So we'd like to give that second attempt. I. Um, the first attempt, when they get their score, will tell us how they did on the exam, not just point wise, but the areas of the exam they were weak in. And I will go back and make them a study packet to help with those areas so they're stronger the next time through. 40:17 Okay, I have another question. If no one else does, do you think someone transitioning from CMS to this particular role would be a good transition? I don't know. I know the skills are super related, but what could you see as that transition? 40:32 Yeah, so for for David and Kate and others, that's contract management services. Okay, that is an employment program under Ability One with the Department of Defense where blind and visually impaired individuals are closing contracts. There are hundreds and hundreds of 1000s of open contracts, and those funds are obligated until the contracts are closed, so when the process is completed contract was closed, then the funds go back to be used for other things, federal government and absolutely perfect, Very, somewhat similar, I think the cyber security processes seem somewhat more structured than the CMS processes that I've witnessed when I was at the CEO the lighthouse in Seattle. We stood up three Contract Management Services offices in San Diego, and I spent quite, quite a bit of time there. So I that is a great point you're making my next presentation stronger, because I'm now putting great, transferable skills between contract management services and cybersecurity analysis. So thank you for that. 41:53 Yeah, I mean the attention to detail that David mentioned, the puzzle solving which contract management can be at times, and just being able to follow a process or dig in and figure out why something isn't correct, yeah, I think very transferable. I bet cybersecurity will end up paying more, though, in the end, 42:15 I will say that's clearly true. People doing contract management services are paid according to the cert Federal Service Contract Act, which prescribes what the pay is. So the we haven't really talked about that, but I think David, if you want to, or and, or Katie, want to talk about kind of starting salaries and the quick acceleration to higher levels in the general terms, that would be helpful. 42:47 Yeah, so starting salaries on the very low end, probably 35 to $40,000 a year, and six months to a year. You can be looking at 70s, 80s, 90s a year just depends on what flavor of cybersecurity you decide to go into. Nobody really remains a level one analyst for a long period of time. They find out what they like to do in cyber, and they pursue that. And those fields all pay well. You know, they all do. I won't name a company that, in the past, has headhunted me, but they required a Security Plus certification and two years experience, and they were starting remote work at $95,000 a year. So the the low end is 35 to 40,000 and there really is no ceiling. It just depends on what specialty that you go into in in the field of cybersecurity, 43:55 yep, and then they want you to have some experience. So the the whole like, what's going to happen for our students is they're going to have the certifications, they're going to get the experience, and then everything only goes up from there. All 44:08 right, I will come back up some more questions. So the two certs that students would graduate with from the program are the CompTIA network, is that correct? And the other one, what is it that they what are the search that they have when they're done 44:23 network plus and Security Plus? Oh, right, okay, and we teach network plus, because if they're novice, that gives them all the building blocks that they need, even for their security career. And then security plus is the entry level cybersecurity certification. 44:45 In the industry, if someone obtains these credentials and then gets an entry level job, and they see that pathway that like I want to specialize in, this, is it typical for their current company to pay for additional certifications? Or in the industry, is that self funded after the initial. Cert. 45:02 A lot of times, the employer will pay for them to get a new cert, or at least reimburse when they get a new certification. So I've seen employers pay for them to do boot camps and get a cert. I've seen some that'll just reimburse, but generally, yes, they it's in the employer's best interest for them to get certified. Thank you 45:23 and Amanda, we're totally open as if new questions arise, please reach out. Thank you. Well, we'll talk to anyone, anywhere, anytime. Move this program forward. True. Appreciate you being here with us today, and really appreciate your insightful questions. So with that, we will wish you all a great rest of your day, and please join me next month, last Thursday of the month, 11 o'clock Pacific, where we will feature the documentary surpassing site, 46:03 and the surpassing site's 46:07 intention to create a social impact program based on the film, to accelerate inclusion of people who are blind in the workforce, which is what we are all about. Thank you so much for being here. Have a great rest of your day. 46:22 Thank you everybody. Thank you 46:24 Take care everyone. 46:27 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a [email protected] kirkadams.com, together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact. You.