Really Good Conversations

Summary "We touch our phones more than our loved ones." It's a jarring statement from scientist and broadcaster Dr. Niraj Lal, but the data backs it up.  In this episode, we go "Behind the Screens" to understand why our biology is no match for the modern algorithm. From the "junk food" of digital connection to the looming challenges of AI and deepfakes, we explore how to build guardrails that protect our attention, our children, and our human relationships.   Guest Dr. Niraj Lal is a scientist, ABC presenter, and host of the Imagine This podcast, which has reached over 16 million listeners.  With a background in solar cell physics and science communication, Niraj is dedicated to sparking critical thinking in the next generation.  His new book, Behind the Screens, serves as a guide for young people (and adults) to navigate the ones and zeros of our digital world.     Overview Why do we find it so hard to put our phones down, even when we know the content we're consuming isn't good for us? Dr. Niraj Lal joins Amy to pull back the curtain on the economic and biological structures that keep us hooked. We dive into the "Awareness Trap"; the idea that simply knowing how an algorithm works isn't enough to change our behavior because these platforms are designed to hijack our most basic social needs for validation and connection. Niraj explains the "frictionless" design of the internet and why we need to move beyond simple screen-time limits toward true digital agency. As global conversations ramp up around social media bans for children, Niraj offers a timely perspective on how to prepare the next generation. We discuss the rise of AI, the death of "seeing is believing," and why, in an increasingly automated world, the most valuable thing we can hold onto is the direct evidence of our human relationships. Key Outtakes  The 2,000-Touch Reality: Why we touch our phones more than our loved ones and how to reset that balance The Awareness Trap: Why simply "knowing" how algorithms work isn't enough to stop the scroll Digital Junk Food: How to identify "low-nutrition" content that hijacks your social needs Beyond the Ban: Practical "guardrails" for kids that go deeper than just setting screen-time limits How to navigate a world of AI, deepfakes, and computer-generated truth The Ultimate Happiness Hack: Why scientific data proves human connection is still our greatest currency For more information: Dr. Niraj Lal website https://nirajlal.org/ The book 'Behind the Screens' https://www.uqp.com.au/books/behind-the-screens     Transcript: "We Touch Our Phones More Than Our Loved Ones" Amy:  Today I'm joined by Dr. Niraj Lal, scientist, ABC presenter, and host of the Imagine This podcast, which has gained over 16 million listens. His new book, Behind the Screens, helps young people understand how the digital world really works. It covers everything from algorithms and AI to social media, gaming, and online behavior. This conversation isn't just about kids and screens. It's about how all of us are learning to live, think, and connect in a world shaped by technology. Welcome to the podcast, Niraj. Dr. Niraj Lal: You can call me Nidge, Amy, if you'd like! But yeah, great to be with you. Thanks for having me. Amy: Fantastic. Now, I have your recent book here, Behind the Screens. It feels like such a topical book right now. There is a lot of talk around the world about social media bans and kids' use of technology, and also our own use as adults. I'm really keen to dive into this topic with you. But firstly, you come from a scientific background. What drew you to understanding how things work, from your science work right through to the digital world we're living in? Dr. Niraj Lal: Well, I think I was always just asking questions. I probably was an annoying kid, but I just try to figure out how the world works and the things that matter to all of us. I studied science and art at university: physics, maths, politics, and philosophy. Then I concentrated on physics to figure out how to make the world work for all of us. My background is in solar cell physics, trying to make solar panels more efficient. I still work in that field, but I increasingly do science communication for young ones. The aim is not just to teach facts, but to spark the skills of creative and critical thinking. It is about learning how to distinguish true information from everything else. This book stems from that: helping a young generation navigate the internet and learn what's going on "behind the screens" so they can make it work in their best interests. Amy: So many of us are walking around and we don't even question how things work or the technology we're using. When was the moment you thought, "Actually, I need to dig deeper on this"? Dr. Niraj Lal: It went by degrees. You just look at adults today: catching public transport or anywhere you are, we're all really plugged into our devices. The average adult in the Western world checks their phone more than 85 times a day. That's every 10 minutes during waking hours. We touch our devices more than 2,000 times a day. We touch them more than anything else: more than our loved ones, and more than we touch ourselves. We're all a little bit hooked. Seeing the impact this has on our society and our civic conversations, how we speak to each other and see the best side of someone else's viewpoint, it's becoming harder. We're getting more polarized. There was a wonderful documentary, The Social Dilemma, that talked to tech executives who knew exactly what drives engagement. It's not always true information, and it's not always in our best interests. I wondered if we could teach that to kids before they get a phone, to give them a bit of armor before they go online. Amy: We put a lot of focus on kids, but as you highlighted, as adults, we're all doing it. What do you think most people misunderstand about how the internet actually works? Dr. Niraj Lal: It's designed to be incredibly seamless. It's like, "How does a fish recognise water?" It's just around us. That frictionless design is intentional. I think it's helpful to be aware of what happens when your device sends something online: what metadata is, how it's used to create a profile of you, and how that's used to figure out which ads to show you. Nothing is "evil" there; it's just how it works. If we're aware of it, it helps. I think the same thing will happen for AI. Amy: You've touched on metadata and algorithms. Why is it that as humans, we might understand this intellectually, but our behavior doesn't actually shift? Dr. Niraj Lal: Because we're human. Our brains evolved as social creatures on the savanna with an almost infinite capacity for being liked and connected. App developers have found a way to hijack that for profit. It's a bit like junk food; we know it's bad for us, but we still eat it. The difference is there's a physical limit to how much junk food you can eat before you feel sick, but I don't know if there's the same limit to feeling validated or connected. Amy: In your view, are we dealing with a technology problem or a human behavior problem? Dr. Niraj Lal: I don't know if it's a problem so much as an outcome of who we are as biological organisms and how our society is structured around profit-making. We're usually catching up with technology, and we're trying to catch up now with legislative changes. The first step is awareness. Amy: Is it too late? Are we so far into it that we can't go back? Dr. Niraj Lal: I don't think we're too late. It is tricky for the generations that have already slipped through. I don't know if we did right by the young people who were online before these social media bans. But every other technological revolution has found ways to have appropriate guardrails, and we can do the same here. It's up to us to say, "Hey, we want this to work in our best interest." Amy: I'm conscious of my phone use around my son. What are kids really learning from watching adults use technology? Dr. Niraj Lal: It's absolutely critical. "Monkey see, monkey do." It's hard to be those role models when we feel so time-pressured with work and life admin. Kids are observing how we do it well and how we don't. But the kids I spoke with for the book are actually quite savvy. They can see what's going on and they want to make it work for them. Amy: What is the one conversation parents should have before giving a child a phone? Dr. Niraj Lal: My tip is that it doesn't have to go from zero to 100%. It can be a gradual process. "Here's a device with messages and a phone; we'll talk about adding more apps over time." Keep the conversation as open as possible. Let them know: "If you see something that makes you feel weird or yuck, that's totally okay and you can talk to me." Make sure they have a safety network. If they're gaming, join them. If they're scrolling, do it together sometimes. Keeping that connection open is the most important part. Amy: We are now in this world of AI, and you talk about the difficulty of knowing what's "real." Are we moving toward a world where truth is about trust rather than facts? Dr. Niraj Lal: We're certainly in an age where any image or video has a real possibility of being computer-generated. Trust, independent verification, and being aware of your media sources will become vital. I think face-to-face, in-person experiences will become even more important: the things we can learn through direct evidence. Amy: What concerns you most about this shift? Dr. Niraj Lal: The conversation is accelerating so quickly. It's helpful to look under the hood of what a Large Language Model actually is, because that gives us agency. We shouldn't assume that just because an AI can converse in a personable manner, it carries the same empathy, value judgments, and ethical frameworks that we take for granted as humans. Amy: I've got some quick "Mythbuster" questions for you. Answer "Myth," "Truth," or "Somewhere in between." Number one: Kids understand technology better than adults. Dr. Niraj Lal: Somewhere in between. Kids are better at fixing the aerial or the video player, but they don't always have the healthy skepticism or that gut sense that something smells fishy. Amy: Number two: If you understand algorithms, you're less influenced. Dr. Niraj Lal: True. If you're aware of what's being put in front of you to keep you engaged, it helps you seek out opposing views. Amy: Number three: Screen time is the main problem. Dr. Niraj Lal: False. Screen time is a symptom. The problem is that we've created economic structures where we don't value social spaces or natural environments enough. We've outsourced parenting to digital devices because they are free and engaging. But when something is free, you or your kids are the product. Amy: Number four: AI will make it impossible to know what's real. Dr. Niraj Lal: False. I believe in our ability to figure out frameworks to verify information. It will be harder, but humans will always have the capability to understand what's real through direct evidence and the scientific process. Amy: What's something you're still figuring out yourself? Dr. Niraj Lal: All of it! All the theory in the world doesn't help when you find yourself doom-scrolling. I'm figuring out effective ways to stay healthy with it, just like everyone else. Amy: Has there ever been a conversation that profoundly shaped you? Dr. Niraj Lal: So many. My grandparents, primarily. I remember asking my grandma for advice and she just said, "Just be happy." At the time, I expected something more complex, but over time I realized that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. Amy: I love that. Simplicity is often the answer. Now, three quick questions from our Really Good Conversations pack. Number one: If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Dr. Niraj Lal: Flying! Easy one. And without carbon emissions, that'd be pretty cool, wouldn't it? Amy: Question two: What was your biggest highlight from last year? Dr. Niraj Lal: Going fishing with my kids and seeing them catch a bunch of fish. I'm getting into spear-fishing too, finding "flow" in the ocean. Amy: And question three: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on? Dr. Niraj Lal: The insight from the long-running Harvard study on happiness: human relationships, more than money or fame, are what lead to happier, healthier, longer lives. Value those close personal connections above all the noise. Amy: If you could ask anyone, dead or alive, a question, who would it be? Dr. Niraj Lal: My dad, who passed away in 2021. I'd love to have more conversations with him. Professionally, Carl Sagan. I'd love to hear his thoughts on how we can communicate the wonders of the natural world to young people today to help us with the challenges we face as a society. Amy: Fantastic answers. Thank you so much for sharing. I feel like we've only scratched the surface! I hope our listeners leave with some reflection on their own habits. Where can they find out more about you and your book? Dr. Niraj Lal: Thanks for having me, Amy. This was a beautiful thing. People can find me at nirajlal.org, and Behind the Screens is available wherever you get your books. Amy: Thank you, Nidge. And thank you for the work you're doing to help us navigate this world. Thanks for listening,join us next time for another Really Good Conversation.

Summary Scams are no longer just about dodgy messages or obvious red flags. In this episode, Amy talks to scam investigator Kylee Dennis about the human side of online deception; how trust gets built, why loneliness can make people more vulnerable, and how AI is changing what feels believable online. From romance scams to voice cloning, this is a timely conversation about manipulation, digital safety and the conversations families need to be having now.     Overview Kylee Dennis is the founder of Two Face Investigations and Scam Prevention Australia. With 14 years in law enforcement behind her, she was drawn into this work after her own mum became the victim of a romance scam. In this conversation, Kylee shares what that experience revealed, how scammers use persuasive language to build trust, why intelligent people still get caught out, and what all of us should be more aware of in a world shaped by loneliness, technology and AI.     Guest Kylee Dennis is a scam investigator and digital safety specialist, and the founder of Two Face Investigations and Scam Prevention Australia. Her work focuses on exposing online deception, supporting victims, and helping people better understand how scams really work; from romance scams and sextortion through to emerging AI threats.     Key Outtakes Scams are often less about technology and more about trust, timing and emotional vulnerability Persuasive language is one of the biggest tools scammers use to create connection quickly Loneliness and isolation can make people far more vulnerable than many realise AI is making scams more convincing, with voice cloning and deepfake video adding new risks One of Kylee's clearest messages   For more inofrmation:  Two Face Investigations www.twofaceinvestigations.au

Summary Maku Fenaroli went from a career in finance to building Maku The Label — an art-led fashion brand from Melbourne that scaled fast and forced her to back herself sooner than expected.  In this episode, we talk about the real tipping points, the behind-the-scenes challenges of rapid growth, and what it takes to turn creativity into a sustainable business. Guest Maku Fenaroli is the founder and creative force behind Maku The Label, an art-led fashion brand known for bold, wearable designs. With a background in teaching and finance, Maku now combines hand-made creativity with modern e-commerce to build a fast-growing label with a loyal community.   Overview Maku Fenaroli, founder of Maku The Label, shares the leap from "safe job" to building a brand in public. Maku originally trained as a teacher, then fell into the world of superannuation when she moved to Melbourne; a role that felt comfortable, if not aligned. Creativity was always there in the background, but like many people, she didn't believe it could become her full-time life. Everything shifted when she finished breastfeeding her second child and found herself living in T-shirts - but unable to justify the designer price tags or support fast fashion. So she did what most people only think about: she made her own. Starting with a low-risk print-on-demand model, Maku tested designs in real time and quickly discovered what customers were truly craving. We unpack the point where the business became "real": the six-figure Boxing Day sale, the strain of juggling a full-time job alongside late-night production work, and the moment she knew she had enough data to step away from corporate life. Maku also shares the cost of rapid growth, from customer service pressure to product development setbacks, and why building something meaningful requires both resilience and humility.   Visit Maku The Label https://makuthelabel.com/ Transcript Today, I'm joined by Maku Fenaroli, founder of Maku the Label, a bold art-led brand that's built serious traction in a short space of time. Maku started the business while working in finance, created a few t-shirts when she felt she had nothing to lose, and within four months, the momentum was strong enough for her to quit her job. Recently named in the top 50 people in e-commerce, she is building, navigating growth, marketing, self-doubt and the realities of backing yourself. Welcome to the podcast!   Maku (01:06) Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Lovely intro.   Amy (01:09) It's a fascinating journey that you've been on and different worlds from your finance background to now fashion. And I thought it would be great to tap into that journey a bit more and for listeners to get a bit of an insight of how a change can happen  in your life or direction. So firstly, take us back because before launching Maku, which is a fashion brand, you started in finance. So how did you end up in the financial world?   Maku (01:39) Yeah. So I had a job in a superannuation company and actually back in New Zealand, I was a teacher. So I'd moved to Melbourne thinking I would get another teaching job. I couldn't get the position that I wanted. So one of my friends worked in HR for the superannuation company. And I went in for an interview thinking this would just be like a short term thing. And then I was there for 13 years.   Amy (02:06) It's crazy where the years go. Maku (02:09) Yeah. And I think I just remember thinking when I started, wow, this is so easy. Like, it's such an easy job from teaching, you just go in, do emails and all that stuff, have your lunch and then go home and you're not there still thinking about the children and the program that you're going to teach for the next day. So yeah, I ended up just staying because it was quite comfortable at the time, but it was obviously never my passion.   Amy (02:31) Have you always had a creative…   Maku (02:32) I've always been an artist, yeah. So I've always been an artist, but it was always my side hustle. It was never something that I thought I could do full-time. I always wanted to. Obviously you always want to do your passion full-time, but I was never in that position. But funnily enough, the company that I worked for always used to hero that you can work flexible and you can do your passion. And so I would be the spokesperson for flexible working and I have my career as an artist as well. So I would talk about it at work as well.   Amy (03:03) Oh that's brilliant. And what prompted you to actually, you know, finally take the leap, finally start it and in particular start with t-shirts?   Maku (03:18) Yeah, so t-shirts obviously wasn't on the bingo card for me. But I'd just finished breastfeeding my second child and I was living in t-shirts and I wanted to buy a couple of new tees at the time and they were really expensive. All the ones that I liked that felt like they were me were in the $200 mark or designer t-shirts and I just couldn't afford them. So I was like, whatever, I'll just print my own.   And there are a lot of companies around Australia, like the T-Shirt Company and the Print Bar where you can just upload your artwork onto their website and they'll print you the t-shirt and send it to you. And I thought, let's just give this a go. I've got nothing to lose. I'm not investing any money in this. Even if I pop these up on my website and nothing sells, I haven't pre-bought these t-shirts. So I did that. And of course, you know, my sister and cousin were the only people that bought them when we started.   But then a couple of influencers that I reached out to agreed to let me send them the t-shirts and it just took off. I think one of the reasons that it took off was I was designing pieces that I really wanted to wear. So I knew they were wearable and they weren't just me trying to copy something that another t-shirt brand has done or, you know, trying to come up with the same formula that everybody's used to.   They were looking for something different and for something really colorful. So yeah, it was a very unexpected shift in my career at the time.   Amy (04:50) And at that point as well, by leveraging these other companies as well from a manufacturing point of view, initially then you didn't have to have that big outlay of, buying upfront all of the products, you could actually utilise that service, you know, print on demand, if you will. And then that I imagine gave you a good insight to what are people actually buying and what they want.   Maku (05:13) It was really amazing and it was a really great way to start the business because there was absolutely no risk. You know, I would paint something and then 30 minutes later pop it on Instagram and people could buy it. And it didn't matter if the designs didn't sell because as I said, you know, we weren't buying stock in these. So I was really kind of testing what worked and what didn't. But what wasn't great was it would take people like 10 to 15 days to get their order because they were printing the t-shirts to go.   We didn't manage this company. It was a company that -- this is their standards. You get your printed t-shirts within this time. So not great customer service, but great in terms of learning and great for us as a business who were just kind of testing the water.   Amy (05:59) Very much. And we often talk about it's kind of putting something out there, you know, test, iterate, learn, then, you know, build from it. So not having that huge, you know, risk at the beginning is really useful. And many people, you know, who are perhaps, you know, working corporate worlds or even just other jobs, you know, they might have this idea to, they've got a business idea or something they want to do, but you end up in this situation where, well, you can't fully leave the job yet because you're wanting to cover your salary, perhaps. But then on the next side, you can't grow the other business because you don't have the time to do it because you're working full time elsewhere.    How did you navigate through that period? And when was the tipping point that you thought, right, we're onto something here and I can consider actually leaving my job?   Maku (06:44) Yeah, it was after we had our first ever sale, which was Boxing Day. Bear in mind, the business only started officially in December. And then we had our first Boxing Day sale that same month. And I think we did six figures, and we were like, what?    So I think it was kind of that point that we started thinking maybe this is going to be something we can continue. And then the sales continued in January. We had our biggest month ever in February, which we've learned now that in retail, that's quite unusual. And I think it was at that point that I was working till 12 o'clock at night, setting up these artworks on the website that we were using, cause it was so manual that my mental health was starting to struggle trying to do the two things. I thought, I can either lean in and do the business that I feel most passionate about or we scale back the side hustle and I try and keep the two jobs, but I just wasn't mentally in a place to keep the boat.    And my husband was like, let's do it. I back you. We had just brought on Colleen, the business advisor, and she was like, I think you're safe. So it wasn't without a lot of thought behind it. And also, although, you know, four months isn't that long, we felt like we had enough data there to say, we can comfortably quit our jobs knowing we can expect this amount of revenue for the next year. So I think that was what made us comfortable to quit our jobs at that point -- we felt like we had enough data to say it was safe for us to quit and we would be financially stable. But yeah, it definitely wasn't without hesitation and without a lot of strain on us both.   Amy (08:31) And it is harder, especially with two children in tow as well. You're not thinking of it just solely for yourself. Perhaps when you are in the earlier twenties or younger, it's like, oh, it doesn't matter. No one else is relying on me. I don't have really any responsibilities. But obviously at this stage, you've actually got those to consider as well. And when you did actually hand in your notice, what did that feel like?   Maku (08:53) It was the best moment of my life, because although I didn't hate my job, I certainly didn't love it. And I think a lot of people can probably attest to the fact that the corporate world can feel a little bit toxic, a little bit draining. You know, when you work for a big corporate company, you kind of become just a number and you're very replaceable. So it felt really good to be able to leave that environment that I never really loved or felt passionate about. And also it felt really good because I just, as I said, wasn't in a good place mentally trying to hold up two jobs at the same time but my husband and I both felt really comfortable because like, if this doesn't work out, we can just go back to the same job. It's not the end of the world, we'll give it a crack and if it doesn't work out we just go back and find jobs, it's not the end of the world   Amy (09:30) Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's having that mindset to think, you know, it's not like, this is the only thing that I'll ever do, if it doesn't work, it's like, can just go back or, you know, find a new job or a different job. It might open up a completely different area as well.     When did you feel that there was then that moment that this is the true launch of the business? So as you said, it's sort of launched in that December over the Christmassy time, but do you think it was more so after you'd left your previous company that you were like, this is now it launched, or was there a bit of a journey in that?   Maku (10:18) I would say we felt like we officially launched as a business when we started manufacturing our own t-shirts, because up until this point, we'd been using blank t-shirts from the businesses who'd been printing the t-shirts. And in that Boxing Day sale, we sold out of every single coloured, like, not the white and black t-shirts in Australia. So we had some customers who were waiting two, three months for their T --  it was excruciating. And I was dealing with every single customer service email with people like being so nasty about a T-shirt. You wouldn't believe how nasty that could be. And I was like -- struggling.    So when we finally got our first shipment of T-shirts, which, you know, it sounds silly, but having our own nep label was such a big moment for me because it felt like I had officially a product that was mine.    So that was around about April or May of 2025 was when we got our very first batch of t-shirts that were all ours. And we'd moved to a different printing factory who were working with us rather than just using a business who does that for lots of different companies or whatever. So yeah, that's when it felt like we were officially sort of making it serious. And that was also when I started really ramping up the ready to wear design process, because I knew that t-shirts alone was not going to be a business that was going to be sustainable.   And I'd already seen lots of other people starting to come out with their own art based t-shirts. And I just knew we were going to have to pivot really quickly, which is what we started doing at that point.   Amy (11:52) And gosh, I mean, how was that journey itself? Because a lot of people, you know, they might be in the creative space or the arty space and think, I don't really, can't really do the business side of things or the logistics side and all of that. But as you highlighted, not only are you the artist, you then actually had to go and source the manufacturing. So was that a bit of a process? Cause then you're getting into how you want the t-shirt to actually fit and feel. And I know myself, you know, finding t-shirts and I've just got here, yep, the branded t-shirt here, but would this be my actual desired fit of t-shirt? Possibly not really. You know, so actually once you get into that side of things, you've now got even more elements to think about.   Maku (12:33) Yeah. And I mean, I just loved learning every little piece of information about it. And we tested lots of different t-shirts and then, you know, initially in the early days, people were telling us that the necks were just a little bit too tight, so then we fixed the neckline, or they were too long or too tight on the hips. And so we really took that time to listen to all of our customers' feedback and really design a t-shirt that just felt like it was going to work for everyone. And so I really loved coming to that process and, you know, working that out myself.    And the other amazing thing that the business did for me really was give me a love for my art back. Because having that be my side hustle for so many years, knowing that really, I did always want it to be my full-time job, but I just never could quite get the art off the ground. You just slowly lose confidence. I was like, I'm not a good artist. The only way I'm going to become, or get considered or taken seriously as if I go back and do a bachelor's degree. So I was either gonna stop art altogether or go and do a bachelor's degree. I was like, I've had enough. It's just draining me. It's draining my love for art. I don't feel creative. And that was kind of when I started putting the art on T-shirts because I just sort of had lost all care factor.    It's kind of funny because then the minute I just dropped all of my inhibitions was when I started this company and then yeah, found my love for art again and couldn't stop painting. Like, if you look around me now, there's just artwork everywhere. I just am constantly painting. So it was so nice to be able to get my love for art back. And when it's your own company and your own passion, you're just driven. So yes, it's difficult to work out all of these things you've never worked out before and try and find manufacturers and whatever, but the hustle is like what keeps you going. It's exciting.   Amy (14:29) Yeah, absolutely. And you're making me think, you know, as you're chatting, my auntie is actually an artist in the UK. She's an amazing artist and she does a lot of teaching and she does holiday courses and all of that sort of stuff. But selling the actual art is hard. The reality is a lot of  the very famous artists that we know of their time, they didn't become famous until they were dead.   So if you want to in your living life embrace and enjoy the art, it is an industry that is challenging to --  how can you give that creative outlet?   Maku (15:07) People don't often have money for art. I mean, I'm an artist. I look at my own home. Like the priority of when I do have money and if I'm going to spend that on art, it's like way down here. Whereas t-shirts and clothes, we love t-shirts and clothes. It's so easy to spend money on. So -- and drinks at the bar   Amy (15:31) Yeah, definitely.   Maku (15:33) So yeah, I think it sort of helped me realise it wasn't that my art was bad, it's just that it's a tough industry to work in and it's a hard sell.   Amy (15:42) Yeah, absolutely. And we have talked, obviously, and you've highlighted actually just some of those hard elements, you know, on this journey and really, you know, any business journey, but we also highlighted some of the amazing, like positive stats you've had. But what do you think has been the hardest part to the success or the business growth that people don't see?   You know people do just hear that, great, you quit after four months, it was making enough money. You know, people think of just purely the money, great, you're making enough money to quit your job, it's a huge success. What have been the things along the journey do you think that have been those trade-offs?   Maku (16:15) I mean, the biggest one was when we sold out of those t-shirts in December, which was amazing because the business was growing. But sitting there and reading all of those customer emails of people who weren't getting their t-shirts, I was in tears every day. And my husband had to remind me like, you're not saving lives. You're just selling t-shirts. It's not that deep. But it was really difficult because you're in there and this is like your brand and this is your baby and you've got people like just, yeah, it was really, really hard.    I think one of the biggest things for me to get through that was hiring someone in customer service to just take over those emails, because I just couldn't mentally deal with them anymore. It was so hard. And then the other really difficult thing to manage was learning to do ready-to-wear. I'd never done any of that before. The product development and finding fabrics that actually print the artwork and maintain the integrity of the artwork has been really hard. So just the sheer amount of money that's gone into trying to make these garments amazing. And then you get a comment on TikTok that's like, why is it this or that?    Amy (17:18) It's hard not to take it personally.   Maku (17:20) It's really hard not to take it personally, especially when people don't understand how much really goes into it. And I think one of the difficult things too has been trying to work out our retail price. You know, obviously I would love to charge the same prices that Big W and Kmart do, but we just don't have that buying power. I think, yeah, trying to find the right balance of charging a reasonable price, but being able to keep a roof over our heads has been difficult to manage because we've never had to look at things like that and we've never had to run a business ourselves and understand what are all of the costs in a business.   Amy (17:58) And there's so many - genuinely the customer has no idea about all of the levels. Everything you're saying to me is absolutely resonating with, you know, our journey with the Really Good Conversations so far, because there's like, there's the physical product itself. That's almost like the easiest thing. Apart from your ready to wear part, because there's all of these other elements from whether it's, know, yes, the marketing, but the storage, the delivery, the logistics, the postage, and then exactly what you said, things, once they go into the post, are a little bit out of our hands. You're relying on the postal services or the courier services. And then when you get customers saying the thing hasn't arrived, but all the tracking is there to say it has. It's like, yes. So totally understand. There's so many just like unforeseen elements as well.   Maku (18:52) And probably one of the most heartbreaking things was not being able to put my very first bomber jacket into production. So we'd made this really amazing bomber jacket with flowers and everything over it. And then when the bulk shipment arrived, the art peeled off and it was devastating. Yeah, that was one of the big -- anyway.    Amy (19:13) It'll all become a book one day.    Maku (18:17) Yeah. It's been a huge, very steep learning curve.   Amy (19:18)  As we go back to, the art is the thing that really, you are driving that visual element to the brand. We've talked about these other things, but e-commerce itself, is e-commerce your predominant main channel for sales?   Maku (19:32) Yes. We don't have a storefront, so we're only e-comm and that's the side of the business that my husband manages. And he's really taken that on and is loving that. I don't know if you know how many e-comm bros there are, but there's like a little community of e-comm bros and they love talking to each other. And so he's really thriving with that. And I think that even if this business for some reason didn't work out -- but of course it will, manifestation -- he will always do e-comm stuff. Cause I think it's just business for him.    Amy (20:02) Yeah. And you have been recently identified in the top 50 in e-commerce. So how does that recognition feel?   Maku (20:13) I mean, it does feel a bit like it should be Kyle's, to be honest. But I suppose the business was, you know, created by me. So, but yeah, no, it was really great and  really grateful to be recognized as part of that, especially being so, so new to this industry.  Just feels like a privilege.   Amy (20:37) Yeah, brilliant. And something that we were talking about a little bit offline as well is the realities of doing these journeys and motherhood and coming from previous environments, you know, when you work for somebody else, that structure that you have when you're in other companies, and then when you have it, you know, completely on your own, how do you structure your work so that, you know, you can bring the energy to what you're doing?   Maku (21:03) To be honest, I'm really -- I do struggle with trying to figure out the structure of my day. And I feel like I've gone through a few different ways of trying to get organized and printing out a calendar for the year and then never looking at it again.   Amy (21:18) This sounds exactly like me!   Maku (21:20) Yeah, I've given it a few different cracks. And for the most part, I just wing it, to be honest, I'm finding trying to find structure in my day is probably quite difficult for me because one day I might be needing to do artwork, and then that artwork might take me the entire day. So then I've got a whole entire day full of emails to catch up with on the next day. But then if I'm in my creative brain, I find it difficult to leave the artwork the next day because I'm like, need to finish this. So it's a work in progress. You know, I miss a lot of meetings, but people seem to give me concessions because I'm a creative. So that's nice.   Amy (22:00) Yes. You are the brand. You are the visionary.   Maku (22:02) I'm not trying to take advantage of that. It's just more that I think people realise that when you're creative, you sort of get in the zone and like time becomes a construct. Like I just don't even have a concept of time when I'm painting.   Amy (22:14) I just think this as well, in these, in the business and when you're creating a product and running everything that goes with it, there's just so many different moving parts. I mean, I personally find myself, I jump between so many different things and then that's exhausting at the end of the day.   Maku (22:29) Yeah, you feel like you haven't really finished anything because you've gone like, yeah, it's like when you unload the dishwasher and then you put the cup away and then you see something in the cupboard, you're like, I've to go do that. And then you come back and the dishwasher is still full. It's like, that's my day!   Amy (22:41) Well, definitely the one in our household, and I'll say this for Alex, my husband as well, is the kettle that gets boiled.    Maku (22:47) And never gets made a tea.   Amy (22:49) Then you walk away from it for a moment and then you come back and you go -- oh.   I'll ask you then: in your creative process, obviously you've had slogans in there as well, but where do you draw your inspiration from?   Maku (23:04) I would say day to day life, really, I'm kind of a person who like, will be doing something and then I'll go, that gives me a good idea. And then I'll go and paint that thing straight away. But also, I'm finding I'm looking a lot towards luxury brands, and brands that have a lot of print heavy styles to look to. So yeah, I'm looking a lot towards brands like Gucci and Dior, ones that are really heavily print based. Because I find in Australia, like there's not a lot of the designer brands that really do lots of art heavy prints. I feel like we've gone a little bit more on the, what's the word, like quiet luxury. And so there's not a lot of print based stuff. So for inspiration, I'm finding going to places like that, where they really like, push the boundaries of what clothing should look like. And then I take that and I interpret it into my way. How can I make that my style and how can I make that more personal to what I like and what I love?   Amy (24:12) I love that. Now, before I ask you some questions from our Really Good Conversations pack, I will ask you, has there been a conversation that has profoundly changed you or the direction of your life?   Maku (24:23) Goodness me. I don't know that there's been one single conversation that's been profound or that's changed my life. But what I will say is that moving into this very new industry and meeting lots of new people, I found that networking has been so incredible and that taking the time to actually talk to people who you normally never would and forcing yourself even if you don't want to, go talk to people, you just learn little tidbits about everybody's lives and you know, maybe one person that you meet might end up having a huge impact on your life.    Like the Lisas conversation, know, I met Lisa and then ended up talking to her sister who became our business advisor for the first year. Or I met this really beautiful woman in New York who turned out to be the manager of Ford models in New York. And she was just the most beautiful human I'd ever met. And her husband was a firefighter in the 9-11 incident. I was enthralled and spoke to her for hours. And I think that's one thing that I've really tried to lean into in this new industry is really taking the time to speak to people because you don't know what you'll learn or what might change the trajectory of your career.   Amy (25:39) Absolutely. And I think certainly there is that when you are doing your own thing, you've got that flexibility to go and have these conversations. When you are in the, again, whether it's a corporate world, like you have meetings with your colleagues or whatever work it is. So you're not going off and meeting people necessarily from sometimes completely different industries. Or there might be people who, yes, they're still in the e-commerce space, but it's a totally different product. But then there's still so much crossover and learnings and challenges along the way. So yeah, I totally agree with that.    Right. My questions from our Really Good Conversations pack. Question number one: What is one of your pet hates?   Maku (26:19) People chewing with their mouths open or like loud eating.    Amy (26:25) Question number two: If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?   Maku (26:33) That's hard, because I want quite a few. I think flying. I dream about flying almost every night and I just -- how amazing would that be?    Amy (26:43) Wow, I love that.   And question number three is: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?   Maku (26:54) That's such a big, like, responsibility. One piece of wisdom. I guess it would just be to take care of the planet. It's the only one we've got. But then kindness as well and kindness -- Yeah. I don't know. It would either be, be kind to people, kindness matters or take care of the planet. It's the only one we've got.   Amy (27:16) Both so important, that is amazing. And the last question that I like to ask all of our guests is: If you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?   Maku (27:27) Okay, yes, I did think about this and it would be Banksy, and "Who are you?"   Amy (27:32) Yessss   Maku (27:34) Right? Who is he? The other one was going to be Andy Warhol. And like, did you feel you were as successful as you were? Or did you compare yourself to other artists? I'd love to just really rack his brain to understand if he knew how impactful his art was going to be on the world.   Amy (27:52) Yeah. And that's, to go back to what I said earlier, it's like, do they ever actually know until actually it's sort of perhaps past their time to really -- when you're in it, you know, you're doing all of the things to try and get it out there.     Well, thank you so much for everything that you have shared today. Where can our listeners come and find out more, well, about you and look up some of your fabulous fashion products?   Maku (28:15) Well, our website is makuthelabel.com. You can also find us on Instagram, @maku_thelabel. I share a lot of behind the scenes and how everything works and all of that kind of stuff on our Instagram. So that's probably where you want to go. If you want to actually learn more about me, if you want to just shop the brand, makuthelabel.com.   Amy (28:36) Last question, what is your favourite item to design?   Maku (28:40) Dresses -- or pants, no, pants. I love a good trouser, especially because I'm a tall girl. So I like to design trousers that actually touch the floor.   Amy (28:52) Perfect. Well, thank you for that and best of luck. I'm so excited to see where Maku, the label, continues to grow.   Maku (28:59) Thank you.   Amy  Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.

Summary Phillip Di Bella built one of Australia's most successful coffee businesses, and sold it for $47 million. In this episode, we find what it actually felt like the day after he sold, how his definition of success has changed over the years, and what the next generation needs to hear about work and leadership.  This isn't just a story about building and selling a business, it's about what success really costs, and what's actually worth chasing. Guest Phillip Di Bella is an Australian entrepreneur and founder of Di Bella Coffee and The Coffee Commune. He is also a mentor, speaker and advocate for innovation and collaboration in the hospitality industry. Overview Phillip Di Bella is the founder of Di Bella Coffee, which he launched in Brisbane in 2002 with just $5,000 and scaled into one of Australia's largest specialty coffee brands. After selling the business for $47 million, Phillip could have stepped away. Instead, he doubled down on building community, mentoring entrepreneurs, and reshaping what success looks like. In this episode of Really Good Conversations, Phillip shares the emotional impact of selling a business with your name on it, the cost of relentless growth, and how he lost 80kg to take his life back after burnout. He challenges the hype around startup exits, investment culture, and the "get rich quick" narrative flooding social media. You'll hear his views on leadership, resilience, and what today's business owners need to understand about patience, failure, and building something that lasts.   Key takeaways What it really felt like to sell a business for $47 million and why Phillip asked for the cheque, not a bank transfer The personal cost of growth: burnout, weight gain, and what he changed after the exit Phillip's definition of success today and why it has nothing to do with status or stuff Why the next generation is being sold the wrong version of ambition Startup myths, VC hype, and what founders should focus on before chasing investment The importance of meaningful conversations, with others, and with yourself The one piece of advice that changed the direction of Phillip's life   For more information: The Coffee Commune https://www.coffeecommune.com.au/ Private Coffee Collection https://privatecollection.coffee/     Transcript  Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Phillip Di Bella, entrepreneur, mentor, and one of the most recognised names in Australian coffee. He started Di Bella Coffee in 2002 with just $5,000 and built it into Australia's largest specialty coffee brand, later selling it for $47 million. He's done what many dream of, but instead of stepping away, he stayed active, launching the Coffee Commune and mentoring the next generation. In this episode, we unpack what really drives him and what future game changers need to hear. Welcome to the podcast, Phillip!    Phillip (01:09) Thanks for having me.   Amy (01:27) Thank you so much for giving us your time today, because I'm really excited about this conversation. And as I've mentioned to you offline is, you know, to tap into a little bit of behind the scenes, a bit more of your brain and what makes you tick from the journey that you have been on. Because ultimately you have done something that, you know, many people are striving to do in business, launch a product, build a business, sell it, sell it for millions and sail off into the sunset on a mega yacht, never needing to work again.    Phillip (01:43) If only.   Amy (01:53) And you haven't exactly done the latter part, but what I wanted to tap into, because I think people, whether they do start something with that end in mind and if it is the selling or whatever. But if you could take us back to 2014 for just a moment when you did sell the business, how did that actually feel when that went through, that sale, for you? What was it almost like, the next day, to realise that is something you've exited?   Phillip (02:09) It's a sign of relief, it really is. I think it's a combination of emotions. You know, a bit of anxiety kicks in, the unknown territory, a bit of disappointment, you know, you're handing over the keys to something that you've built from scratch. But ultimately, when you look at it and you go, hey, I've been able to build something quite remarkable, I've been able to look after people along the way. I've been able to, obviously now I can set my family up, which was very important with me being, my background being Italian, to set my kids up and take some money off the table because since 2002 right till you sell, you've got an amount of risk. You've got money on the line, you've got debts, you've got all sorts of stuff. So relief is probably, if you said sum it up in one word, relief.    Business is relentless. It's even more relentless today than what it was in 2014, and we can sure unpack that. But because business is relentless when you're an owner and people say, what hours do you work? Well, you never stop working when you own a business. And it doesn't matter whether it's a micro business or a medium business or a small business or a large business, an owner of a business never stops working. The brain's always ticking and it is relentless. I'll keep saying that word. And so in summary, the one word that sums it all up when you finally exit and you know, and I, they wanted to direct debit the money into my account. And I said, no, I want the traditional checks. So I made them present checks and I took a photo of them on the table and you know, it was a bit of old school. The first thing that came to mind was relief. Relief because I was able to set my family up, set myself up and it was a validation of, you know, taking a punt, going out into a challenging world of coffee in 2002 with 2000 competitors, several of them billion dollar companies, several hundred million dollar companies, us being a startup with 5000k. Then growing to be Australia's largest specialty coffee company, which means, you know, it's manufacturing and supplying only into cafes, is that concept of specialty coffee. We had 11 % market share of supply into cafes, which gives you an idea of size. We built a prolific brand, we had an amazing team. It was just relief.   Amy (04:21) And were there any points through the actual journey that stand out of times of just thinking, I don't know if I want to keep doing this? You know, some of my friends and fellow business owners, we're often talking and voice noting being like, what are we doing? Why did we choose this path? Maybe we'll just go get a job.   Phillip (04:38) Yeah, look, all the time, you know, there's no secrets. I started the company in 2002, I was quite healthy, and fit over the years, before you knew it, I'd put on, you know, when I exited completely through the earn out and the whole lot and handed over the keys officially in 2017, I was weighing 167kg. I'd been traveling three weeks a month, I didn't have any work life balance or harmony, something I talk about now. And, you know, I look back and I go, it would have been much easier working for wages and it would have been much easier working for somebody else. And that's not a bad thing. That's why I made sure that all 130 plus of my staff loves coming to work and they've felt integral to the business, because the work team and staff are important and not everybody can be a business owner, but a business owner can't operate without the right people that are dedicated to the cause that are vested emotionally into the vision of the business.    So I wanted to build a workplace that people felt a part of that success and the motto has always been, the more you do for the business, the more the business will do for you in terms of time off, pay, whatever, workplace flexibility, bonuses. The more you put into the business, the more the business will put back into you because I didn't want them to feel just like a staff member or team member because I didn't want to just show up as a staff member or team member into another organisation.    But that whole saying where they say we do today really hard things so that tomorrow can be easier is something that I talk about. Everything was very difficult from 2002 to say 2014, difficult in different ways. From startup to growth to then being Australia's largest to maintaining that, to continuing the growth. But I look back and I go without that journey and without what happened there, I wouldn't be where I am today, which is, again, my kids are set up. My daughter starts university today, turns 18 in a couple of days' time. My boy's in grade 11, he's 16, just got his learners, able to buy him a new car.   It really comes back to now, you know, sitting there and being grateful and looking back and going, I'm 50, I'm the fittest and healthiest I've ever been. My kids are in a great position and set up well. I'm personally in a good space. And you know, that's where gratefulness and reflecting is so important to look back and go, I wouldn't be where I am and who I am today, had I not traveled that journey from a young age. And not just from starting a business, because my journey started nine years before that, working for somebody else, which started before that at university, which started before that growing up as a son of migrants, learning good values and work ethic and how to win with people, something that a lot of people forget today. Something that I instil into my kids, grades are good, but winning with people and a good work ethic will always beat your grades. So make sure that, you know, that to me is the trifecta. Something I instil in my kids, something that I instil in my team, is that you need that whole person in terms of their work ethic. So what I talk about now, mindset, skill set, heart set. They're the three key elements and that's something that was important to me to bring, whether I was working for somebody for nine years or when I became an employer to instil into my team. Have the right heart set, the right mindset and the right skillset.   Amy (07:41) Yeah, perfect. And something that we are going to touch on today, which I'm keen to dig into is this sort of, the upcoming generations. But before I ask you that, I did just want to check and you mentioned, you know, money. How has your definition of success changed over the years? You know, from the beginning, was it -- right, well, I just want to make as much money as possible. But again, now you're at that other end and you ultimately, as you said, have created that secure financial future. How do you think that topic of money success has evolved over the years?   Phillip (08:10) Great question, Amy, and I'll frame it in two ways. Firstly, my relationship with money being a son of migrants and seeing my parents bring a family up on $450 a week, you make sacrifices. So there's no brand new car. There's no air conditioning. There's only one TV. But Mum and Dad had paid off their house within 10 years of arriving in Australia. All the money got spent on good food, good times, barbecues around the table, barbecues at the beach, no fancy holidays, no fancy cars. They covered what mattered. And that was a safe house and accommodation, great food on the table and great company. So bringing it back to the value.    So growing up, my relationship with money was to have enough to do what I want when I want. To me, money was a resource to buy freedom. It was a resource to be able to buy a brand new car, which is why I love cars, to be able to fly anywhere in the world at the front of the plane anytime. So my relationship with money growing up wasn't about materialism and possessions. It was about, you know, being able to amplify what my parents couldn't do. We had a beautiful, a basic house, but beautiful, safe, big yard, cul-de-sac, grew up in a nice area. We had amazing food on the table, but there were a lot of things you couldn't have. There weren't any overseas holidays. There weren't frequent holidays, but every weekend we'd be at the beach with relatives and friends. So it really is prioritising what mattered. That upbringing instilled in me values that then I said, if I want to amplify the car I drive or amplify the holiday I have or amplify the restaurant I go to, I need to go and do something. I need to go and make something of myself. And that's where that ambition and drive came to be the master of your own destiny. That was the groundwork. That was the fire in the engine. It was never about materialism. It was never about being somebody. It was never about ego or emotion for the wrong reason.    As you fast forward, and of course, we started, did really well and all the rest of it. I talk about now and I fast track for people to understand, that to me, that success is now a triangle. At the top is health and it's non-negotiable. And on the other axis is time and money. So if you are in great health and you have enough time and enough money to do what you want when you want, then you are successful. It's not about the car you drive. It's not about the restaurant you go to. It's not about the wine you drink. It's not about the handbag you carry.   You know, I look at my parents and go -- super successful. My dad's 89. My mum's about to turn 82 on the weekend. You know, I'm fortunate to still have them around. They're in their eighties. They're not as healthy as they could be right now, but they've been quite healthy up to now, but they've had enough time and money to do what they want when they want. Dad didn't want to go back to Italy and travel. He sent Mum back two or three times. You know, he always made sure there was enough money to pay for, you know, my sister's wedding and my brother's wedding and stuff like that, family gatherings. There was always great food on the table. They had enough time and money to do what they wanted when they wanted that mattered to them. So I put them in the same category of success as somebody who might have a lot more money, but if they don't have the time, then they're not successful. And I've seen a lot of people that have money, but they don't have their health or time. I've seen a lot of people that are healthy, but don't have time or money. I've seen people that have time and health, but don't have money. To me, what I've learned, and the key takeaway for people, is that if you have your health and you have enough time and money to do what you want when you want, then you are successful. But it's identifying what you want, what matters to you, not what somebody else thinks or it's not about materialism. I always talk about, and hopefully it goes on my tombstone one day, life is measured in moments.    Amy (11:50) Oh, I love that.   Phillip (11:58) Because there's no removalist truck following a hearse to a funeral. We don't go to a funeral and we unfortunately see the hearse out the front. We don't see a removalist truck behind it, carrying the possessions with them. So, when somebody gets up and talks about a eulogy, the eulogy is all about the moments that people have shared, not about things. These are things that matter to me.   Amy (12:13) Brilliant. And you've seen, you've just got me thinking as you've been talking, do you see sometimes a difference perhaps in the people that you mentor that those had the more modest financial upbringing, they got more drive and hunger to go and get that ambition than perhaps those people who basically just had everything available and on a plate? Do you ever see that distinction?   Phillip (12:32) Yeah, of course. And I would say, wouldn't say everybody, but I would say nine in ten or eight in ten. It makes sense. And the theory behind it is, if you've come from that, you've got a softer landing. And there is always going to be, in my opinion, and for what I've seen, there's always going to be a different level of determination and hunger in somebody whose worst case scenario is not as good as somebody else's worst case scenario. That's just the way the ecosystem works, right? I love boxing and I box because I like the training, not so much the actual fighting. And I've had a lot to do with boxers. And if you look at the boxers and you study the best boxers in the world, most of them, again, not all of them, but eight out of ten, all come from a really harsh upbringing. They all come from an upbringing that was just terrible. And you analyze that data and you go, well, what is it? And it is -- when they need to dig deep, when they're getting dragged through the trenches in that ring, the person who's rock bottom is a lot harder than somebody else is going to dig deeper.    That's no different in business, in the person who's rock bottom in business…is going to be a lot more driven, a lot more dedicated and focused than somebody whose rock bottom is not. And again, it's not everyone, it's not 100%. There's going to be abnormalities in that, but eight out of ten, I would say there is a difference.   Amy (13:47) Yeah, brilliant. And you touched on, you know, some of the younger generations that are now coming up the ranks and maybe, you know, whether they're in education or thinking onto their business careers. But, you know, I feel like there's a lot of noise and especially on the likes of social media, about a lot of the get rich quick schemes and, know, don't work a day in your life if it's not something that you love. And, you know, it seems to be that there's now, whether it's the build something, get investment, exit fast or make $100k in a month in your sleep or nothing. What's your sort of view on this for these, shall we say, younger listeners and generations about that approach to business?   Phillip (14:23) Something I see that doesn't fail is two things. One, the common denominator of success is doing what other people are not prepared to do, putting yourself in that position to do what other people are not prepared to do, pushing harder, faster, whatever it is, normally leads to more success. And if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. We only ever hear about the quick overnight successes, but do we hear about the 95 % that have failed? The hospitality industry, one in ten cafes closed last year. You look on the socials or you look at the media and you'll see the top 1% that are performing well. And people go, the cafe industry is booming -- because for whatever reason, shame, or there's not just enough attention brought on. What about the ones that have done it tough? What about the ones that have had a go but have failed? And a lot of them haven't failed because of their own issues or problems. It's economy based or they've been given the wrong advice or they haven't surrounded themselves with the right people. But for every one story you hear that's amazing, there'll be ninety nine that have failed. And it just proves that if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Like I said in the opening, not everyone can be an employer. Richard Branson says it best, and I was lucky enough to spend a week at Necker Island many years ago with Richard Branson, talking about a lot of stuff. But one of the things he talks about is an intrapreneur. You know, don't ever forget the person that works within your business that has entrepreneurial capability.   If you want, and from that I took was something, the strategy that I've always implemented. I want people good enough to own their own business, but I've got to give them a reason not to. So if I want people that are good enough to own their own, I've got to give them a reason to stay. Now that's the intrapreneur in an organisation. So this whole thing coming back to the question of, you know, everyone should do it, don't work a day in your life. Well, it doesn't make any sense. It's a lot easier now in certain industries to stand out from the crowd, with different resources, social media, the acceleration of AI, all this sort of stuff. It's opened up a lot of opportunities, but for every opportunity that's opened up, there's been a lot that have closed down.    I always say that one of the best podcast ideas, here's one for you listeners, would be a podcast where it's just about stories that have failed. Because there's so much wisdom in something not working. Imagine a podcast series where we're talking to people -- and I actually, it's not being a sadist or a narcissist, I actually like talking to people that, where stuff has gone wrong, with great respect, but to learn, to fast track my learning of what went wrong, how did it go wrong? What was the turning point? What didn't you see that was coming? And in hope that I get to protect myself and my mindset and I can learn from that and go, well, how do I make sure that I don't follow that? I don't know of any podcast that exist that just focuses on negative stories. And not because it's negative, it's just because there's so much wisdom, so much knowledge in a series like that.   Amy (17:13) Absolutely. Well, now you've brought that to the topic, I'll go off piste of my notes then. Can you share with us some moments that stand out along your journey that were like -- it was perhaps considered a failure at the time that it happened?   Phillip (17:14) Yeah, well, my weight was a failure, right? We're told that, you know, we can have it all. We can't have it all. You can't have a perfect, healthy body, a great relationship with your wife and kids and run a massive business that's accelerating, you know, year on year at over 60 to 80% year on year. You just can't do it, because you can't allocate the time that the family needs, the time that your body needs and the time that a business needs to have everything working in perfection. And so what I learnt from that, through failure, through putting on 80kg -- I'm 80kg lighter now than what I used to be -- I now take all school holidays off so I can spend time with the kids. What I learned through that is, you've got to prioritise what matters to you at the time that it's happening. And if you're starting a business, that's going to be a priority, but don't forget your family and yourself. If you're going through illness or sickness, don't forget your business and your family. Try and make all three work as harmonious as possible. Right? That was something I learned as a life lesson.   You know, something that I learned in business, made mistakes, was so focused on front end growth, so focused on pushing the sales team across the country, that we forgot about the accounting system. We forgot about the systems and procedures in the backend. And all of a sudden in 2010, we blew up our accounting system, you know, and that was QuickBooks at the time. And, you know, accounting systems were way different 16 years ago to what they are now. The capability wasn't the same. And imagine blowing up your accounting system that runs all of your invoicing and your accounts receivables and accounts payable, you know, and then we had to go from QuickBooks to SAP. Now that's like going from a bloody, you know, Commodore to a Formula One car. It's just different, the amount of training, the amount of cost and the amount of everything.    And the lesson I learned out of that is that when you grow, plan for your growth twelve months in advance. You know, so know where you are now and where you want to be in twelve months and put your systems and your processes and your skills capability and your workforce into the spot that you need to be in twelve months, not where you are today. Because otherwise you're working reactively, not proactively. And that was a key takeaway.    So there's been lots of lessons learnt along the way, investing in the wrong people, investing in ideas instead of people. Made that error when I exited, got a bit excited, invested in a few businesses. Luckily, a couple of them have made more than made up for the others that were lost. But lesson learned was, don't invest in good ideas, invest in good people with good ideas. That was a real key takeaway. Lost hundreds of thousands of dollars investing in the wrong people, even though the idea was good.   Amy (20:04) And then, you know, where you're mentioning there -- investment -- does feel, there's often this, glamorising investment. Especially people who are starting a business or in those early years, and founders can often be chasing getting investment as opposed to perhaps focusing on some of the foundations and customers. What do you think of that sort of glamorised world of investment these days?   Phillip (20:27) Yeah, I think it's a great question because I deal with different businesses. It depends what business you're building. I'm a big believer where possible businesses should be bootstrapped. I don't believe in people going out to get financial investment and they're paying themselves $250,000 a year. They get too comfortable. I mean, I was never in the top three paid people in my organisation ever. Even at the Commune now, I'm still probably the third or fourth highest paid person in the organisation.   Amy (20:52) Well, you don't need the money anymore.   Phillip (20:55) Yeah, but it's the philosophy that I've always used. And I mean, I'm still running a commercial venture. I'm still running it and bootstrapping it, as in, putting the money back into it to return it and churn it. I'm a big believer where possible, but there are some businesses that you can't do that. There's some businesses, especially in tech space and that, that you do have to accelerate quickly and you do have to maximise the opportunity. And in that space, then yeah, you do need to go out to market and say, right, what investment do I need? But I talk about investment and I'm part of different things like Get Ahead is a fast growing  recruitment tool that's like Tinder for employment. The actual owners of Tinder are shareholders in it as well. It's called Get Ahead. They're the people that walk around interviewing people, "What do you do and how much do you get paid?", and you know, they're growing massively.    So when I worked with Sam and he approached me on investing, I said you need to make sure that all investors are functional investors. They need to bring something to the table besides money. So I'm a firm believer that if you're going out to market to raise capital, that the person bringing capital to the table has to bring more than just money to the table. You know, they have to bring convenience. They have to bring expertise. They have to bring a network of knowledge, hopefully all of those, but at least two of those besides money. It's something that I'm really key about when it comes to now looking at any opportunity that I invest in and looking at it. But again, you know, make sure I'm investing with a person with a great idea and make sure that they need more than just my money, they need other things that I have to offer.   Amy (22:24) That's brilliant, I love that. And the thing -- I've got some quick fire questions for you as well -- but you talk about now where you are, 50, healthy, fit, financially free, but where does that really begin? You briefly talked about it at the start of this podcast to go think about actually more to your youth and some of the things you did.   Phillip (22:44) Yeah, look, where does it begin? I think it begins in mindset, it begins in forward thinking. I've always been, I look back now and I can say this, I didn't know this at the time -- I've been quite a visual person. I'm a visual person. There's a joke that people say Phil doesn't read instructions. He'll open a box and throw the instructions away. I'm a visual learner. I've got an ability to visualise stuff. As I said, my parents were great, great role models. My brother's thirteen years older than me. My sister's eleven years older than me. I've got cousins that are in their seventies. So I've grown up around a very good family with good values. And I've been able to watch and learn from what they do, what they've done well and what they could have done better. And I think that's where it all started in the mindset of visualising the life I wanted and visualising the life I wanted to give my kids.    But if you said, where does it start? It starts with the values that are instilled in you. Now, don't get me wrong. I had a very good upbringing. But if there's people that have had a very bad upbringing. And what they learn is, I'm going to make sure I've learned what not to do. So they say, somebody that's had a bad upbringing will either follow the same footsteps or be completely different. Right? Because they'll either look at it and go, this is all I know, copy it, or they'll look at it and go, this is not who I want to be, be different.  So I think we do undervalue the concept of upbringing and who we are as people. But the point I really want to hone in there is, just because you had a bad upbringing is not an excuse to be an a**hole now. You have that choice to look at that and go, I'm not gonna be that person.    When I looked at the person I worked for as a boss, I was like, I'm not going to be that person. When I go and open my own business, I'm gonna be the best possible leader that I can. I'm gonna be inclusive, I'm gonna reward great behaviour. I'm gonna reprimand bad behaviour in terms of, I'm going to point it out. But 90% of the time, I'm gonna tell them how great they are when they're being great, pull them into line 10% that I need, but I'm gonna hold myself to a higher standard than anybody else. I'm gonna make sure that I'm harder on me than I am on anybody else. I'm gonna make sure that I lead by example. I'm gonna make sure that I communicate what my vision is. I communicate what the parameters are, right? And I'm supportive and I'm standing right beside my team to help them and elevate them. That when we hit success, it's a we, not an I. We are successful, not I am successful, right, that I'm gonna talk about my team. And there's thousands and thousands of interviews over the years where, you know, I'm constantly talking about the team because they are the crux of what Di Bella was and now what the Commune is becoming. It's all about the quality of the team that you build. But again, you've got to reward them, you know, and reward to them is different to different people. You know, some it's monetary reward, some it's time, some it's, you know, gratitude. There's, as they say, there's five different languages of love. Not everybody's the same.   But I suppose the key is where people think, he's just waffling. No, it's meaningful conversations. When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with yourself? When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with those around you, whether it's your friends, your relatives, your kids, or your people and your workers? I think a lot of people have forgotten the art of meaningful conversation.   Amy (25:56) Yeah. Everyone's just sort of rushing around and whether it's in your personal life, in the family home, rushing out the door or colleagues don't have time to give each other feedback or to collaborate on something. We're always in this narrative of, don't have time, I don't have time, I don't have time.   Phillip (26:11) Everyone's rushing Amy, but no one's got anywhere to get to. That's what I laugh about is, everyone's rushing, but no one knows where they're going. You know, and I say to people, you're in a rush, what for? I'm not sure. Well, you know, and that's why it's so important to seek your outcomes, your destination, what's achievement look like, what does success look like, make it measurable, because rushing, rushing for what? If you don't know what you're rushing for, then what's the purpose, right?   Amy (26:35) Yeah, such a good reminder, because I slip into the, always rushing or just always thinking I have more time than I do to get places if anything.   Phillip (26:43) People are, you know, one of my pet hates is, "I'm busy". Really? So tell me the most meaningful thing you did in the last 24 hours. And I'll tell you that question stumps people. Yeah. You've been so busy. Tell me the most meaningful thing that you've done in the last 24 hours. What has stood out for you in the last 24 hours that's made an impact on you or somebody around you? Because if you can't remember, you weren't that busy. You're busy doing what?   Amy (27:02) Busy for busyness. Before I ask you some of our Really Good Conversation cards, I've got some just quick fire questions to tap a little bit further into your brain, if you will. Obviously you have achieved a hell of a lot of your journey so far, but what if anything still makes you nervous or keeps you up at night?   Phillip (27:21) People's expectations and what's happening at the moment. People want more for less, whether that's a customer. They want -- Australia at the moment is whinging about the $6.50 cup of coffee, yet you go to Europe or you go to America and it starts at $8 and their wages are half the price of Australia. So there's food for thought. That's quantifying it with an example. So people's expectations.    Workers are no different. I talked about it this morning with my executive manager. I said, since when does everyone start work at nine o'clock? I walked in and people are hoohaaing around and having coffee and then telling me how busy they are. Can't be that busy if you're sitting around drinking coffee, and I got no problems, drink coffee till the cows come home, I mean, that's fine, but don't tell me that, you know, you're busy. You're waltzing around at nine and you're out the door at four o'clock. That's not busy. So that comes down again to an example of people wanting more for less. It doesn't matter whether it's people in the workforce or whether it's customers. So that is a bit of a worrying thing at the moment. Yeah.   Amy (28:18) And you have often been in the media on stage on podcasts, etcetera. Do you enjoy being recognized, or do you find it a bit tiring at times?   Phillip (28:27) Recognised for the right reasons. I'm quietly, and this will shock listeners, but I'm introverted in new company. So, and people go, explain that. Well, of course, when I'm on a stage or when I'm being interviewed, that's part of your role. I mean, no one wants to listen to somebody who's introverted, shy, and you know, so you bring, it's part of your job, you step up, you go -- but when I say introverted to explain it, if you're having a party and there's a hundred people there or twenty people there or a thousand people there and I don't know most of them, I'm the one that'll walk in quietly and go and you know hug the walls and make my way to the back of the room. Many times been called arrogant because people think he's just being arrogant, well no, because the moment somebody comes to say hello or somebody smiles at you I'll smile back or I'll say hello. So I'm quite introverted but the recognition for me the best recognition is when somebody, and I had this the other day, where somebody will come up to you and go, I came to one of your speeches ten years ago and you told me I was going through some terrible stuff and your advice was, get comfortable with your worst case scenario, use that as your risk management plan and it changed my life. That's the best type of recognition for me. When somebody's actually going, hey, I listened to something you said or I adopted something that you put forward and it changed the way I did something or it helped me in that situation. That to me is impact. So any recognition in the fact that you've had an impact positively on somebody, I'm all for. Recognition for any other reason can be flattering sometimes, but take it or leave it.   Amy (29:54) Yeah, love it. What kind of example do you hope your kids take from your journey?   Phillip (30:00) That anything you want in life, you strive to attempt and try it yourself. That you don't drag others down to elevate yourself. That if there's somewhere you wanna be or something you wanna do or something you wanna achieve, that you put yourself in the forefront position to make that happen and surround yourself with the right people. Don't ever be the person who drags somebody else down to elevate yourself.   Amy (30:20) Love that. And how do you take your coffee?   Phillip (30:24) Depends what mood I'm in. If being super healthy, it'll be a half shot long black or a double espresso bit longer. My favorite is an extra hot piccolo. So you can imagine people's dismay when I walk into a cafe and they recognize I'm asking for extra hot piccolo because the traditional barista's like, what do mean extra hot? Can you just make me the coffee the way I like it? Coffee's personal. If somebody wants it extra hot, make it extra hot. You know, if they're paying for it, they're the customer. You don't need to give them a lesson on how coffee should be drunk.   Amy (30:50) Have you? Gosh, I mean, if a barista did know who you were, you would be a pretty terrifying customer. Phillip (30:56) Oh, not at all. Amy (30:57) Because it'd be like, my God, I can't get this wrong. Have you ever sent a coffee back?   Phillip (31:00) No, I haven't sent a coffee back. It's constructive criticism. I've always given constructive criticism if they ask, but I have not sent a coffee back. There's been a few times I haven't drunk the coffee.   Amy (31:13) Well that speaks volumes though. I don't know what's worse!   Phillip (31:16) Well, that to me is the job of the waiter to actually say, the wait staff to say, hey, is there a problem? The dialogue to say, well, you know, not so much a problem, but it wasn't made properly or, whatever. I mean, we can deliver any message we want, but in a very respectful manner is something I was always brought up to be respectful.   Amy (31:33) Love that. And do you ever just secretly go for instant coffee and not tell anyone?   Phillip (31:37) Big fan of instant. If it's the right instant coffee, it has a place. We've got a great instant product at the Coffee Commune on my privatecollection.coffee website. We've sourced an amazing high altitude Arabica instant that tastes like filter coffee. Here's a secret for you listeners. It's the fastest growing category now and it will be for the next three years because of the cost. It's a lot more cost effective. People are struggling with disposable income around the world. It's a global issue. The amount of money they have to spend after all of their obligations and, and needs like insurance and gas and home loans. So instant is rising fast because people will always drink coffee. They'll just change the way they drink it and what they drink. But there is some really good instant on the market.   Amy (32:18) That's good to know actually. Has there ever been a conversation that profoundly shaped you or changed the direction of your life?   Phillip (32:26) Yes, I was offered a job to go into government when I was finishing my commerce degree and a lot of my family worked in government. So my brother-in-law and I were sitting in a cafe and he's a lot older than me. And I said to him, you know, I've been offered a job to go into government, you know, I've a commerce degree. And he said, you're, I've known you since you were eight years old. He goes, you're not built for working in government. He's been in, he was in government for forty four years. He said, you're not built for government, you've got too much entrepreneurial spirit, you've got too much personality. Yeah, he said, that is the route for you, take it from somebody who's been in government. So my brother-in-law shaped that conversation. I've probably never told him that, but there we go, we're sharing it for the first time.   Amy (33:07) That's amazing because in reality to have a job offer coming out of school, education, whatever it may be, would be, we'll take it, it's security, it's comfortable.   Phillip (33:23) That's what was being drummed into me by my dad. My dad was saying, you know, go to -- I was the first one to go to university in the family. Go to university, get your degree and go get a good job in government. It was actually being pushed that way. It was my brother-in-law that said, I'm in government. It'll stifle you. It just won't be you. That's some great advice so I wouldn't be where I am.   Amy (33:46) Amazing, I absolutely love that. Right, I've got three questions. So those questions weren't even from our packs of cards, they were just other ones that I had prepared, but three questions. So question number one, if you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?   Phillip (33:59) Mmm, the ability to see things that others couldn't. To be able to see, you know, I was having an interesting conversation with somebody yesterday about a global conference they went to and they had an AI speaker. And in short, I'll give you the short version. He said at the time there was horses and carts, the people with horses and carts never thought there'd be cars. At the time that there's cars, no one thinks that there's going to be no cars allowed, that they'll all be driverless because humans cannot operate as good as a computer. But people are now shaking their heads going, no, there will never be driverless cars. But the people that were in horses and carriages never thought that there would be cars. So imagine if you had that vision back then to be able to see what other people couldn't see.   Amy (34:47) Yeah. And then maybe course correct potentially as well and go, actually, maybe is that a good route for us to be going down as for human society? And look at all the damage and waste we've done over there.   Phillip (35:02) Agreed, agreed, you hold a lot of power, Yeah. Hopefully you would use that power for good.   Amy (35:06) Yeah. Question number two. Do you have any regrets? And if so, what are they?   Phillip (35:11) I don't have any regrets as such. What I could have done much better was look after myself during the journey, health-wise, and be a bit more present for my kids as they grew up. Not a regret because obviously since 2017, I've been able to have all school holidays off and they're now eighteen and sixteen. So that's, you know, nine years ago. So from the age of nine and seven, they got their dad back. But if I had said, how would you do it differently? Look after myself better so that I could be more present for my kids when they were, you know, zero to eight, zero to seven.   Amy (35:45) Amazing. And question number three, what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?   Phillip (35:52) It's actually Gandhi's wisdom. Be part of the change you want to see in the world. There's a lot of people that want to talk about what they want to see in the world, but they're not prepared to be part of it. And that's Gandhi's words that I talk about quite a lot. A lot of people sit on the fence and want to bark orders and they want change and they want better government, but they're not prepared to do the work. They're not prepared to research what government stands for and they just vote like sheep or they vote based on a message or popularity competition. They don't actually go and listen to the policies or processes or what people stand for, but they're the first ones to whinge about having bad government at whatever level in whatever state and whatever council in whatever country.  But be part of the change that you want to see in the world.   Amy (36:28) Fantastic. Thank you so much for that. And the last question that I ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?   Phillip (36:39) Look, can I have two? Amy (36:41) Go on yep.   Phillip (36:43) So Nelson Mandela, and I'd have to ask Nelson Mandela, how did you forgive when anger would have been much easier? Because we all get caught up in those emotional states where our first go-to is anger. How did you actually forgive when the go-to could have been anger to fuel your existence? And the other one would be Jesus Christ, and that would be, did humanity actually understand your message or did we complicate it? Because you don't have to be biblical, you can be of any faith. So replace Jesus Christ with whatever faith you follow. But did that leader of that faith, did humans actually understand your message or did we complicate it?   Amy (37:29) Yes. Wow. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for everything you have shared today. We honestly could talk for hours and hours about various different parts of your world, your journey and the lessons that you've learned along the way. So really appreciate everything that you have shared. And we've only even touched briefly on the Coffee Commune. So give a shout out to our listeners for where people can find out more about your world or any things you're doing this year.   Phillip (37:54) Yeah, so the Coffee Commune, coffeecommune.com.au, we're Australian first concept. It's all about accelerating people's potential in the hospitality industry. It's a place where everyone comes to collaborate. It was a place where people said we could never build. We're a facility, so we're a $20m facility where you can manufacture any sort of volume of coffee. And then we're a community that now has over 1,850 members, the largest private community, non-government funded in Australia in hospitality where we're having a lot of impact with advocacy and workshops and education, but everything filters down to helping people accelerate their potential.    For those of you that love coffee, I've released a private coffee collection. So privatecollection.coffee is where you can get fresh roasted coffee delivered to your home or office at factory prices. That's my personal thirty odd years of coffee expertise, all in a bag or in many bags, so to speak. So, if you love coffee, big shout out and have a look at that range for your home or office.   Amy (38:51) Fantastic. Thank you. It sounds like you've got no signs of slowing down right now. So thank you for everything you shared and look forward to chatting again.   Phillip (38:59) Thanks for having me.   Amy (39:03) Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.

Summary What happens when you realise the life you've built no longer fits?  In this episode, Andrew Sloan shares the story behind his book Why Things Feel F*cked and the personal reinvention that followed. From ending a long-term relationship to taking his work on the road, Andrew explores why so many of us feel stretched, stuck or overwhelmed and why better conversations might be the way through.  We talk about nervous systems, leadership, perfectionism and the quiet power of human connection. Guest Andrew Sloan is an integrated psychotherapist and leadership coach who works with individuals from all walks of life, as well as CEOs and executive teams navigating performance and culture challenges. His work sits at the intersection of wellbeing and high performance, with a focus on self-leadership, nervous system awareness and meaningful conversations. He is the author of Why Things Feel F*cked and speaks nationally on leadership, resilience and connection. Overview After publishing his book, Andrew made a series of significant life changes, choosing freedom and possibility over stability. That shift becomes the gateway into a wider discussion: why do so many of us feel under pressure, even when life looks "fine" on paper? Andrew unpacks the modern productivity trap and the way digital life keeps our nervous systems in a constant state of activation. He explains why chaos isn't new, but our relationship with it has changed; and how the smallest shifts, from elongating the exhale to reconnecting with nature, can begin to restore calm. Andrew shares why most performance issues at work are really conversation issues. High performance and wellbeing are not opposing forces, but deeply connected. This is a thought provoking, grounding episode about curiosity, courage and the human need for meaningful connection.   Key takeaways Modern life keeps our nervous systems activated through constant digital input Many workplace performance problems are actually conversation problems Calm hasn't disappeared. It's simply covered over by protective patterns The practical shifts that can help us reset  For more information: Andrew Sloan www.andrewsloan.com.au Warning: This episode contains strong language. With quite a few F-bombs.    Transcript  Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Andrew Sloan, an integrated psychotherapist, leadership coach, and author of "Why Things Feel F*cked". Andrew works with individuals from all walks of life through his private practice, as well as CEOs and executive teams at the intersection of wellbeing and high performance. Whether it's in his one-to-one sessions or inside leadership rooms, his focus is on what's really going on beneath the surface and when things aren't working. At the heart of his work is one simple but powerful idea. Better human relationships start with better conversations. In today's episode, we're going to explore reinvention, why so many of us feel stuck right now, and what actually helps when life feels a little off. Welcome to the podcast, Andrew.   Andrew (01:25) Thank you for having me, very, very much.   Amy (01:28) Even just reading in your intro totally just aligns with the world that we are in with really good conversations when you highlight that better human relationships start with better conversations. And I felt it was great to get you as a guest on the podcast. You have launched a book in the last year and we are going to get on to that. But the last year has been quite a big year for you. And there's been changes and adventures. So can you give us a little bit of an insight to your own life of what has shifted and what made you realise something needed to change?   Andrew (02:02) Well, I think the last 10 years has been a pretty massive adventure, all sort of crescendoing in the last 12 months where I started to write a book. 2024, I started in June and then as I was writing the book, I realised that there were some really hard conversations I needed to have with the people that I loved. And so as I published the book in November last year, I ended a 13 year relationship and you know, that was because I think it wasn't set up for common connection in the world as I wanted it. And for him, after 13 years, it didn't feel free enough. And so we came to the decision to separate after so long. All whilst I am publishing a book into the world. I wrote about the breakup in the book as well in chapter nine at the beginning. I start to talk about, you know, the critical and really meaningful conversations we needed to have, to make a change possible. And then I just couldn't see my life being anchored to a mortgage or even a lease again. All of those options in front of me were a no towards that sort of being tied down to something. And it just felt energetically in my body, like a big fat no.   And I had to have a really considerate conversation with myself about what that meant to kind of shirk that security. And I bought a motor home and I am traveling around Australia for at least 12 months. The way it's going right now, Amy, it's like, it's really cool. I'm like,  is there an end date? I don't know. But one of the big adventures that I'm on right now is to take the "why things feel f*cked" idea and continue to have that conversation in different communities. And I've already been starting to do that, but also learn what's beyond what feels f*cked. I definitely talk about that in the book, but I think I'm on a journey towards learning at a higher fidelity. What does real great living look like beyond us recognising and knowing this isn't it? What is on the other side of that? Is it more a connection to nature, more diverse people? Is it being a bit more nomadic? And that is what I'm currently discovering. And it's f*cking cool.   Amy (04:37) That is amazing. And even just going back to your own personal experience of writing the book, the majority of people, yeah, the vast majority of people don't perhaps get an opportunity to do that full self discovery. So it's almost, as you said, through that process of writing the book and the context and the content you were writing about, actually showed a mirror into your own world.   And then as you said, you're now getting out there beyond what was your usual world where you were  obviously living at the time and then meeting completely different new people, new communities, new locations and you're just living out your own experiment in some way.   Andrew (05:17) Yeah, it's different vantage points, right? Of the same thing called this human experience. And I will never forget the day I had the printed out manuscript and I was working through it to work on an edit. And I was like,  I don't have this in my relationship right now. I can't have that meaningful conversation right now in this relationship. And it was as I was flicking through it, I was like, f*ck.   I need to make some significant changes here. And,  yeah, it's, it's been a wild, wild ride and it continues to be one. And it's a beautifully profound moment when I can kind of lay down those things that keep us safe, like the mortgage and the house and literally pick up a mobile home, a beautiful one at that and drive around and go, I can actually live a bit more simply than I was.   I can live way more connected to myself and nature than I ever have been. And, look, there's also some really great conversations to have on the road as well.   Amy (06:23) Because we're sold the more, more, more, you know, the work for more, the get the bigger, whether it's the bigger job or the bigger thing to always be reaching the apartment, then the house, then the bigger house. It's always that more, more,   Andrew (06:34) And the job, right? That supports it all because without that job, we can't pay the mortgage at the level we are. And we can't meet the cost of living pressures that we find ourselves in. And so, yeah, we are stuck in a little bit of a trap. And I talk about this in the book as the productivity trap and it is the more, more, more mindset. And it's a myriad of different things that kind of put us into that mode. I'm not sitting here saying, well, they all should be destroyed and broken down. No, I'm not suggesting that. I don't think everyone should go on a motor home because I probably wouldn't have a campsite left if you all joined me. But we do need to orientate ourselves in that so we can make better choices. And the first step is to acclimate ourselves to that and go, oh, I am in that more, more, more. And it is kind of fueling something in my life that is hindering presence, calm, wellbeing, better connection with the people around us. So yeah, it's important we're having this conversation about the more, more. And I think people are starting to realise, yeah, this isn't working and I feel like I'm trapped by it.   Amy (07:47) Just on the treadmill. What for you was the point that you thought, I want to write a book, I need to write a book and actually it's going to really highlight, you know, obviously a title that gets attention for sure, "Why Things Feel F*cked". Where did that drive for you come from in the first place?   Andrew (08:03) It's so multi-layered. And I think if we begin where we were just in our conversation, it was with clients coming to me and saying, I'm really stuck and I have no f*cking idea why I'm in the dark to why I feel like I am so stuck. And this experience of the sort of curtain is closed to why we feel so f*cked and why we then feel so stuck in that.   We're following all the rules and we don't know why joy and happiness and peace is impossible in our lives. That was the beginning of, wow, how do I compile something that will tangibly and practically help not be like a self-help book that just gives you the surface treatment or gives you a couple of the moves, but without the robustness that I think we need in a world that is kind of keeping us in place.   But the other answer to that question is my lifespan, right? So the, the, the, things feel f*cked for me from 13, 21, 35 to 41. Now that I sit here and talk to you, there's been layers of why things have felt f*cked and these mimic and echo what I hear from clients. Right. And I hear from clients in my private practice where I'm meeting one to one with people, but also when I sit in executive teams and go, wow, we're all a bunch of babies sitting at this table reacting to the world from how we were brought up, but we're bringing it to the boardroom and creating really ineffective, harmful conversations with each other. And so I see it on both ends of the spectrum. I'm like, this is all the same shit. It's all the same thing. It's a nervous system inside of your and my body that has been shaped by the world, to the point where it's playing out in pretty destructive ways, fear-based ways. We start to try to attempt to take power over each other.    And so when I saw those patterns, I'm not the sort of person that can look away from those patterns and do nothing. I see those patterns and I'm like,  wow, this story needs to be threaded together and it needs to be told. And so that's why this book is set up in this way. It talks about, how do we get into this mess? What's the impact on our bodies? And the last two parts of the book are the pathway out personally, what choices, moves, frameworks and strategies might we need to use personally? And then how are we going to bring them to others? You know, how are we going to accept other people's support, but also how do we cultivate belonging and connection everywhere we go? And that was the primary driver to lay out this book in the way that I did, but also the driver to actually tell my personal story for the first time, because I've kept my personal story way out of my conversations with people because I wanted their story to be central. And that's an ethical responsibility, but also it keeps the pressure on the right thing. You, the client, not me, but I really needed to leverage my story. felt to propel this story along and keep people engaged and to speak to the right people. So, it was uncomfortable, but I did it anyway.   Amy (11:27) And what a process, a journey, you know, and a growth experience and what you're now doing off the back of it. I mean, I bet when you embarked on this book, yes, you may have thought, oh, well, I'll do a bit of a book tour around Australia. But when you set out on it, you probably weren't thinking, oh, I will actually, separating from partner, getting a motor home and driving around Australia for over a year. I love it. It's just, you know, where these opportunities and things come from.   And you do talk about, know, it's not necessarily a new feeling in that, humans have always lived through chaos, you know, and there's various examples of chaos over the, over the different generations and wars and everything like that. But what feels different about how we're experiencing it now in this current time?   Andrew (12:15) Chaos is the substrate of the human experience. Some models call it disorder is the known fabric of the universe and the human experience of it. And so yeah, we've always had chaos and strategies to quell that chaos, right? And throughout history, I think that's impinged upon us, that has hammered us. And yeah, we are certainly not in the worst version of that. We're just in a new version of that.   And I think the chaos right now for people, and this might be a really great stat for you being from the UK in the UK right now, nine out of 10 people are reporting high levels of pressure and stress right now. And we can see that from the cost of living crisis, the political landscape, the threat of AI, a whole bunch of different things, but I kind of distill it down to chaos being wrapped in a digital bubble wrap. You know, it's like we've digitified chaos in so many ways. And we pick up these phones, mine's plugged into the moment because I've been using it so much this morning, but we pick up these phones and they're our interface into the world. And they're also hijacking parts of our brains and our bodies to activated versions of themselves. So you add in smartphones to that mix and we've got a real big challenge where chaos is wrapped in that digital layer.   I don't think we started to talk about it in some of the studies around increasing experiences of anxiety and depression in young people when they're engaging with social media as an example. But I don't think we're talking about it enough, like the toxicity that actually happens through the lens of our phones and them actually keeping us from really good conversations, keeping us from the present moment inside of ourselves. And I am still in that loop as well. I get stuck doom scrolling, get stuck in thinking I need to be accessible by my phone than in the present moment with myself or another person all the time. And I'm thinking about strategies on how to quell that and to reduce that. One of the things I've just started and it's really easy in a motor home because the bed and the charger can be really separate.But I'm no longer plugging my phone in where I can access it in bed. Yeah. So that I can create a buffer of the beginning and the end of my day, which can be lo-fi and digital free. It's, it's not digital free because I have my, my tracker on, but it is feed free at the very least to really create a different experience in the beginning and the end of the day. And I wonder about its effect on my calm, but also my quality of sleep, right? Which we know is a huge part of feeling that stress, that anxiousness, that ramped up-ness in that digital chaos bubble. What does it do when we can kind of down that? I think it's important.   Amy (15:24) Absolutely. And this, you know, totally resonates. And I know I'm guilty of especially, you know, having family in a different time zone. I'm going to bed quickly doing messages because, you know, it's their daytime. So therefore I'm ending that day on the phone, waking up and reaching for the phone to then if I do want to catch people or things or obviously, yes, you know, our businesses in the UK as well, then therefore you're just always, yeah, always on.   And I think there's a lot of talk, even just phones being the example, you know, there's a lot of focus and conversation of children and their use of it. And, you know, some of the initiatives that have been talked about there, but it's for me, it's like, it's us adults actually as well. So in a professional sense, it's that full yet the world of LinkedIn in business, if you're not promoting it on somewhere, is it even happening? And then you're in this constant just engagement and feed. So absolutely I feel like that.   You did touch on nervous system and such, and for someone who's listening and does feel perhaps they're like constantly just on edge or feeling that high almost like angst, stress level. What is something like a practical shift or tip you think is a genuine good place to start?   Andrew (16:37) Well, I'm going to start with a connective tissue between what we were just talking about in this question. Then I'm going to go to three things we could do today, Micro things. But the biggest misunderstood thing about calm is that the majority of it is what we're doing right now. Eyeball to eyeball, face to face, voice box to voice box connection is the biggest move we can make towards a calmer, more deactivated nervous system. And when we pick up our phone, we actually split that connective tissue. So we're at the dinner table. We're with our friends. And when we, all that typical person picks up the phone and it breaks connection, actually is severing our ability to feel calm and curious and connected with each other.   And this is biochemical through the vagus nerve, through the auditory nerve, and to our facial expressions and beyond into our voice boxes. And this is the stuff we had in small hunter gathering groups in plentiful supply. It's when really good conversations were never interrupted by our digital lives. So that's one thing. When I think about how we support people to more deactivation, away from angst, away from rage, away from anxiousness and into presence, it is mostly supported by human interaction, face-to-face connection. And then of course, when we don't have access to another human that feels safe, because a lot of human connection is judgmental or critical or narrows us or activates us. And so unfortunately, the world is in plentiful supply of those people. And so when we can't get that safe human, like the energy we are bringing each other, of openness and warmth and curiosity and reciprocity. We call it in the science, it's like this even flow between two people.    When we can't get that, yes, there's some body moves we might want to make.    The first one is to think about breath. Elongating our exhale is foundational to a deactivated nervous system. It is a beautiful way to become purposeful and present. And it massages all the bits and pieces of our nervous system that help us deactivate, even when things are still chaotic and messy in our lives. It's not as simple as just saying, the therapist is telling you to breathe, but it is like, is kind of that simple. And so elongating that exhale is the goal and we don't need any messy or complex breath work. We might want to go down that path. I'm just saying it's easy enough just to elongate that exhale.    The second thing is at times we might be really activated and this kind of has two forms and one of the things that I've picked up myself recently,  because I'm privileged enough to be able to access a sauna and a cold plunge, we can simulate that ourselves. If we're really activated, go and splash cold water on your face, activate the nerve, the vagus nerve, and find a rebalance in your nervous system state. So when people are really overwhelmed, that's a really great hack to kind of step into.   And that cold water down-regulates our nervous system towards calm. The medium of that is if we're fortunate enough to live in spaces that have saunas and cold plunges, they actually mimic the fight and flight response and allow us to come back to a more regulated zone. And so this stretching of our nervous systems are really supportive at finding more calm in our everyday life, that chaos.    The third is, go find nature.When we gaze at bodies of water and there's this science around fractals, fractals are found in leaves, waves, anything natural really is a natural fractal. The opposite is the straight lines of this room that I'm sitting in, the manufactured spaces that we are often in, or even that, I don't know, that pattern behind you,  that beautiful soundproofing.   Well, they're certainly not down regulating our nervous systems, but what we do know is, we know that built environments are not, but we know natural environments do. They down-regulate our nervous system. So there's, Dr. Jenny Brogdon in WA is talking about a prescription of nature every single day. And she's a GP. She goes, "I want to prescribe you" in her book -- I think it's "Nature's Great Advantage" -- but, "I want to prescribe you a prescription of access to nature every single day". And that in the van, the living 360 degrees of my life in nature, the level of calm I have felt, I'm like, she's not joking. She's not joking. It's real. It's real. And it's profound. And we need to be thinking about it more and more as we move through the chaos.    Amy (21:50) Absolutely. And we touched on this just before as we started. If you are traveling in and out of cities or perhaps offices, you know, you're just commuting in, in, out. There's all of the different things you're just seeing on a daily basis or traffic or lights or sounds, all the stimulus that you just go through without really a second thought. But then as you say, you maybe go sit in an office all day and then come home and do it again. There's not that getting into the nature part.   Andrew (22:17) And on Sunday, I went to nature with two mates and we had a meaningful conversation together about identity and life and navigating the world as it is. And it was a beautiful thing because I could mix both, you know, nature with great conversations coming together. And this might be a good idea for another pack. What if that was a whole pack of yours and it could include nature, right? In the dialogue.   Amy (22:45) Where you're making me think, could I do this podcast on the move in nature? Because what I have actually been doing is more recently also having like, walking meetings with people. So especially if they're relatively local, could get to the rather than just saying, well, let's meet at this cafe for a coffee and have a seated meeting is like actually let's meet so and so which then we're getting, you know, it's flowing conversation, but it's both getting a bit of exercise at the same time. But yeah, you do, you find the conversation flows in different directions.   Andrew (23:16) It's a different quality of conversation, isn't it? Profoundly different. It's because we're having a conversation in the setting closer related to where our neurobiology and chemistry grew up and it evolved. It evolved in natural spaces. This isn't like a new idea. This isn't like woo woo thinking. This is -- no, our neurons and our nervous system grew up in natural spaces.Let's re-dose ourselves with those natural spaces because we know we need it. Yeah.   Amy (23:46) Absolutely. And we'll touch on before we go, you know, to some of the question cards from our packs, but you do do a lot of work in the corporate and leadership space. And when do you realize what looks like a performance issue is actually a conversation issue?   Andrew (24:02) Well, 26% of us, only 26% of us are in workplaces that are fit for human consumption. Where the psychosocial hazards or the toxicity of really bad conversations aren't hammering us. That relegates at least 74 % of us are in workplaces which are toxic to human connections.    70% of us getting into the wellbeing space of work where high performance and wellbeing merges together, 70% is the meaningful conversations we have with our direct manager. And so every workplace challenge and issue, at least 70% of it is about better conversations with our leaders, better human relationships with our leaders. And 30% is the pay, the facilities, systems, the processes, all the other stuff. And that is what I take to senior leaders and their teams is like, yeah, you could, you can out-bot the bots. You can try to get ahead through AI and digitification, but your market leadership, your leadership of a highly profitable and high-performing team is actually the dimensionality of your human to human relationships inside of this business. And what are you doing around that?    Yes, tend to AI, get ahead of the curve. Absolutely. Don't ignore it. Because that would be quite foolish. But at least 70% of your time and your energy should be about great conversations with your people. And so the science is really clear. The number one driver of well-being in high performance is care. And Graham Cowan is writing a book, publishing it this year, another great guest for you, called "The Manager That Cares".   And we know that care is the central driver, but the care is all about meaningful conversations at work. And Gallup, who is the large polling organization in the States, says half an hour often. And often in different settings means different things  for different setups. It could be monthly, fortnightly or weekly. And it's half an hour conversations that are deeply meaningful that orientate people to what excellence looks like, frees them up to do their best work by the systems and the information, the processes, deeply cares about the person, but also helps them learn, and stretch. And this is what most workplace performance issues are because of and solved by.   Amy (26:43) It's wild listening to you talk about this specific point because what you're making me think is we are having as humans to almost re-educate ourselves on just the basics of human interaction because we've had so much technology. Learn the technology, learn the tools.   Andrew (27:00) It's not even the technological change of the last 15 years. It's how we were brought up by those humans who were well-meaning and caring and very loving. I'm not saying they weren't, but they did not teach us how to have great conversations, don't know about you, but they also didn't teach us how to regulate our emotions and our nervous systems so that we could get out of our own way and have a present conversation with someone. So this is layers of history that have gone in the way of the basics of the human experience. They are basics around breath, connect meaningfully and go and touch grass and see sea today. You know, like they are basic, but we have overcomplicated it so much that we have to kind of delay the complexity to get back to that simple human rhythm.   Amy (27:52) And what question do you wish more people ask themselves when life does start to feel off?   Andrew (27:58) Wow. That's such a beautiful question. And like inside of me, I've got like 50 questions wanting to step forward. Maybe what would be a more curious response to this? Because sometimes I think what all of that we've just described, it invites us and has invited us towards certainty, having to know the answer, having to be in a black and white position, a yes or no position.   So I wonder in those circumstances, could the question be to ask, could I get more curious? Could I be more open? Could I be more flexible? Could I be more vulnerable and not knowing? And then what would happen? Then what would take shape next?   Amy (28:44) I'll be asking you our three questions from our conversation packs in a moment, but the question I'll ask you before we do do them is, has there ever been a conversation that has profoundly shaped you or changed your direction in life?   Andrew (28:58) Again, I could talk to you about 90. I have the fortune, the good fortune of being able to speak with about probably 30 to 35 people every fortnight to month. Each one of those very generous humans that trust me to have really great conversations with them changes me every single day week. It's such an honor to be a psychotherapist and coach, leadership coach, that they are all very profound. But what's one conversation that I could tell you about that changed things profoundly? I'll never forget sitting with a therapist who for the very first time challenged my dominant logic about what was normal and if normal was really real.   And we were talking about this before we connected and started to hit record that I think we're convinced that there is a normal out there we should subscribe to. And she was the first person to put me in a position to really second guess that. And she kind of helped me fracture it. That there is no such thing as a normal, a homogenous way of living, a dominant logic on what's right and what's wrong.   And it was the most powerful conversation. And I remember where I was sitting. remember the light coming through this window on the left. I remember the floorboards. I remember her face. And I remember that fracture and going, well, what is normal? Which actually changed the course of the trajectory of the next 20 years of my life to really never put my normal onto someone else. Really bad conversations happen in teams, workplaces and marriages.When we expect our normal to be someone else's normal or another way of saying that is my version of this, the thinking, the feeling and the doing is the same as your version of the thinking and the feeling of the doing. And the conflict that that creates actually divides us and separates us. And so that conversation, that profound conversation that questioned normal and what normality was. I think if we were writing the memoir, which we're not, that would be the pivotal point of like, Whoa. And then cracked open there and set me on the course that I clearly am on now, you know, after 20 years from that conversation, I'm here.   Amy (31:29) Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that fantastic answer. Right, so whistle stop three questions from our packs of cards. Question number one. If you came with a warning label, what would it say?   Andrew (31:46) At times brash, confident and clear, but please understand, very soft and very vulnerable on the inside.   Amy (31:57) Oh, lovely. And more people could do with taking that kind of thinking to when they're working with their colleagues and things, you know.   Andrew (32:04) The most direct of us, the most demanding of us, the most  dictatorial of us are at times the most vulnerable and soft. And I think you're right. When we go and navigate the world and we've got that brashness from others, it often is a lot of insecurity underneath that. That's when it's in its extreme form. Yeah. I'm offering it to you, you know, hopefully more integrated, more present, more aware, of course, by the value of my work, but also how I've moved through the world. But yeah, sometimes that brashness in others is a lot of insecurity and fear.   Amy (32:43) Yes, I can imagine, definitely. Question number two. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?   Andrew (32:51) Well, I've written a book that I hope to gift to everyone. It's probably got too much in it, right? It's a maximalist... I've gone for depth of framework and change than simplicity. But one of the things in the book I talk about is the manhandling of our nervous systems in how they've been shaped by our past relationships and the world as it is.   but the many layers of systems that have brought us up in the world and continue to shape our lives. The one thing I want them to know is that that calm, connected, curious nervous system is never evaporated in us. It is never extinguished in us. It is forever present, but it can get covered up by parts of our personality that are keeping us safe. And so the one thing I want to hand down to younger generations is just because it feels like it's extinguished, that calm, that peace, it's not.   And it is just being occluded or covered up by impulses in us that are trying to keep us safe in a chaotic world. Trust that it's there and find your way back through small changes often back to that. And it might be you, Amy, standing on the shoreline this afternoon with your feet in the sand just before you jump in the water. And hopefully there's a sharknet there. And it might be those micro moments that happen more times than they don't to get back to that part of our nervous systems that have always been there and will always be there and we can revisit them in these small ways. That is what I would love to pass down.   Amy (34:23) That is a beautiful reminder and yes, definitely a reminder for me as well.  Question number three, the last one. What is one of your pet hates?   Andrew (34:31) Oversimplifying how we need to move forward when we think things feel f*cked. There's some theories, well-meaning theories out there right now around how we can live a better life. And they oversimplify a pretty complex experience that feels actually really messy. Though you and I have simplified a few key moves to make.   Finding presence enough in our days to have a face-to-face, eyeball-to-eyeball conversation is sometimes really hard for people. For some of my clients, finding that extra exhale is as challenging as climbing Everest because of their past experiences. So one of my pet hates is when we oversimplify our complex and very hard experience and we just make it simple and we put pressure on people that it should be easy to make it happen.   Another example of that is with leaders telling them one meaningful conversation often that for some leaders is really hard with the demands and the pressures of their workplace cultures. So oversimplifying things when they are messy and hard and stuck and not giving people just enough complexity so they can orientate themselves and then valuably know how to move forward, you know, with the steps, the moves, the different experiments that they might want to make because there isn't a one size fits all unfortunately.   Amy (35:59) You literally just read the words out of my head. I was thinking exactly that. You read these lists or these tips and you're just like, yes, sometimes it feels like a bigger to do list to add to your day that you're trying to already do. They're all fantastic answers. So thank you for everything you've shared there and throughout this conversation. The last question that I ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?   Andrew (36:25) When I first was training to be a psychotherapist and you will, if you ever speak to an emerging therapist,  we always talk about Carl Rogers. And if you or your listeners would ever love to hear and see an example of a great conversation, go and Google Carl Rogers in session. He's got actual sessions that he did. And I'm talking about like, I think this is like the 50s, 60s. It was like, a long time ago.  I would sit down with Carl, who's one of my conversational heroes and the little guy in me would want to know, am I doing well? Am I doing okay, Carl? Am I making you proud of how to have great conversations? Because he was and is for many emerging therapists, the blueprint, the epitome that Mount Everest of great conversations and with such warmth and such care and I would just love to know if I was doing him proud.   Amy (37:30) That's brilliant. And I'm sure from everything you have shared in your journey, I'm absolutely sure that you will be doing, you know, him proud.   Andrew (37:39) I could cry. I could cry at that thought. That's a beautiful thing.   Amy (37:43) Well, I think equally you've shared some really just great, you know, concepts, insights, information, but, know, practical kind of just thoughts that hopefully our listeners can resonate with and take away. And, you know, I think the journey you are currently on is so inspiring. We're talking about where you're at now and all the positives at it, but equally, I appreciate it. It probably hasn't been a totally easy journey as you have navigated through these changes, you know, as well.   Andrew (38:08) Yes, it's so true. And that might be in the next book. But for now, go and buy the first one.    Amy (38:14) Brilliant. And yes, as we wrap up, give a shout out to where people can, you know, find out more about you, check out the book and your other work as well.   Andrew (38:22) The best place right now to find me as Instagram -- hello_andrewsloan, and no "e" at the end. You'll probably link it into the show. That's the best place to keep up to date with what's going on. There will be van content coming in the months ahead, but yeah, the book is really anywhere. There's a great audio version on audible, which is like having a conversation with me where you don't get a word in.   Amy (38:33) Yeah, I'll add all the links in.   Andrew (38:50) And it's just me speaking at you for six hours that has a digital resource connected to it where you can get the tools, the resources that I speak about in the audio book. But of course it's available on paperback, Kindle. If you go and Google "Why Things Feel F*cked", you'll find everywhere that it lives. But, yeah, come follow me on Instagram, grab the book, join into the conversation and yeah, get ready for the next book that I'm writing now on the road. Amy (39:15) Brilliant. Thank you. Well, safe travels and I look forward to seeing where you end up next. Andrew (39:21) Thank you, Amy.

Summary When was the last time you had a night out that felt completely worth it? In this episode, Amy is joined by 'The Jodie's', Jodie Whelan and Jodie de Vries, founders of House of Zim; a women-only events concept redefining what a great night out looks like for women over 35. Guest Jodie Whelan and Jodie de Vries are co-founders of House of Zim, a Sydney-based women-only events concept designed for women over 35. With backgrounds in brand and marketing, they've combined strategic thinking with lived experience to create thoughtfully curated, early-evening dance events that prioritise connection, nostalgia and joy. Overview Between careers, children, responsibilities and the constant pressure to optimise our lives, joy can quietly slip down the priority list. And when getting out requires organising childcare, coordinating diaries and reshuffling life's logistics, the stakes feel higher. If you're going to make the effort, it needs to be worth it. House of Zim was built around that idea - "a guaranteed good night". Together, they explore why women-only spaces feel different, what actually happens on a dance floor when women feel safe, and how music reconnects us with parts of ourselves that may have been pushed aside. The conversation moves beyond events into something deeper; identity, permission, friendship and the courage to prioritise what makes us feel alive. If you've ever wondered when you last danced, laughed freely or did something purely because you wanted to, this episode will resonate.   Key takeaways How the loss of 'joy' sparked the idea of creating 'House of Zim' What 'House of Zim' really means, and who it's for The psychology behind music, memory and connection Building a brand aligned with values and the misconceptions  How women-only spaces shift energy and confidence For more information on House of Zim https://houseofzim.com/   Transcript  Amy (00:02) Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I'm joined by the Jodies, Jodie Whelan and Jodie De Vries, friends, sister-in-laws and co-founders of House of Zim, a women-only events concept rethinking what a great night out looks like for women over 35. Today we're talking about the role of fun, the power of women-only spaces and what it takes to design a guaranteed good night -- and also what it is like building a business together. Welcome to the podcast, ladies.   The Jodies (01:04) Hi, thanks for having us.   Amy (01:06) Thank you. It's so lovely to see you and thank you for bringing your dancing vibe, the energy to this podcast. So our listeners can't see that, you when I dialed in the ladies were there enjoying a good old dance, well and truly living at their brand. I'd love to obviously chat to you about House of Zim, what you're creating and the journey you've been on so far and where you're heading. But tell us firstly, a little bit of the origin story and was there an exact moment for you where you realized fun had perhaps slipped off your radar in your lives.   The Jodies (01:43) Yeah. So, Jodie and I used to own a business together, a branding agency. Jodie still has it, Tiny Hunter. And I stepped back from that about four years ago. Life was too busy and I have two young children. Jodie has three young children and it wasn't too busy for her, but I know we've all got different limits. And so I stepped back and decided to have a little bit of time out and I sort of was mulling over, I was wondering, will I go back in? What else did I want to do? And part of me thought, well, you know, I'll go off and be independent. But actually, I did keep coming back that I wanted to work with Jodie again. And I'd been through the whole, you know, burnt out wellness rituals, all of that, and they helped. They did. But then at some point, I really just started feeling like I wanted to lean back into fun again.   And so Jodie was very supportive and she'd come out to me with all these nights out. And we found that we were going to this one particular bar in the city. We loved it. We knew that it was always going to be great music, but it didn't get good until later on in the evening. And also there was a lot of young people there and young people are lovely. And God bless all the 20 year old women who want to wear crop tops and have fantastic bodies. But I was just perhaps in a place where I was like, Ooh, this is making me feel a bit old.   So, yeah, I sat across from Jodie in a cafe and was like, I know you're really busy, but might you want to start a guaranteed good night out for women who are 35 and over? And that really was as simple as that. We knew that we wanted women to have a crowd that they could relate to. We knew that we wanted it to be music that you know and love. So we're particularly passionate about 90s and 2000s house and pop. And we knew that we wanted it to be a good venue.   So, know, no sticky floors, places that respect your age and that you feel like you're gonna have a good night in.   Amy (03:48) Brilliant. And what made you decide to go down women only specifically?   The Jodies (03:55) Women are the best. Sorry. I just think, well, there are lots of places that you can go to that are for everyone. And we wanted to create something that was special. And I guess, you know, all our girlfriends, they want to catch up with each other, spend time together. So it was creating a space for that, but where they could make new memories instead of talking about the old memories. And I think there's just really a special kind of magic when you get a whole group of women together just having fun, let their hair down. I don't know why, but it's just different. Yeah, there's a certain kind of freedom.   Amy (04:30) Absolutely. Yeah. And when I first heard the concept and Jodie, we'd met at a networking thing last year and I was just like, yes, he totally resonates with me on this. Yeah, you know, I turned 40 in October, which I actually celebrated at your event, at your October event, which was  amazing. So I can definitely vouch for being a tried and tested attendee.   Yeah, it was when you get to this sort of age and perhaps you're not going out as much as you were. There's other responsibilities, you know, we've all had the hangovers and such. Like, it's not really worth the next day. And I always say this, that phrase, borrowing the hours of the next day. You know, if you stay out after midnight now, it is like,  God.   The Jodies (05:15) Yeah, that's right. So our next event runs seven till 11 PM. Yeah. And we're really specific about the type of venue that we want because by the time that you've, if you've got kids, you're organising a babysitter, maybe you need help with your parents or you've got to do something with your pet, you know, and then you've got to get all of your friends together into the same timeline that it's going to work for. It's really annoying if you go out and have a shit night.   So if you're going to do it, you want to make sure that you're going to have a guaranteed great night out. So that's what we're really, we're very discerning about the venues that we use. We only ever use female DJs. Mostly we're using DJs who are in that 35 plus age bracket. We have got one who we just really love. She's a bit younger, but we still forgive her. It is hard to find good female DJs. So if anyone is thinking of doing it, do it. And the other thing, you know, earlier I spoke to that whole, just felt like I was ready to lean into fun and I didn't want to stay in this sort of serious mindset. Jodie's talked about this before. It's like, take supplements, do squats. Are you talking to your children enough? What connection method do you have with your partner? Are you getting eight hours sleep? Are you timing it on a ring or a watch? And it's like, Jesus Christ, we'll just go out and have a good time because actually if you look at any study to do with wellness, all those come lower down and at the top, is walking and dance. Yeah, that is the best thing. And you're out with your friends, you're making new memories. That was one of the things we also talked about. Sometimes you get into this catch up. Yes. And so you meet and you're just telling each other what you've done. And also often, let's be honest, women of a certain age complaining about all of the things you're having to do when you're stressed about. And so we really like the idea of just letting women create new memories. And we always say living a hell yes life. That's what we want. That when somebody sees our event, it's a hell yes answer. Like you said, you saw it and were like, ooh, this really resonates with me.    Amy (07:17) And it's so funny when you were just saying there reeling off the list, it does sometimes feel like it's a full-time job now just to sort of stay alive, just to adult, you know, it's like between the, well you've got to be getting the meditation in, and the journaling, and make sure you're moving for exercise. And if you actually look at all of the other great tips and advice and all of this and wellness, you're like, well, if I do all of those things, what am I actually doing any work or doing the, you know, shopping and the cooking and all of that? There's definitely that freedom feeling, I think, just generally dancing. And I know myself when we were on your dance floor in October, a girlfriend who's got two little ones now, and she actually said to me, she was like, this is the first time I feel alive and like me. I think since, you know, since having the children. And I think because we are in that, you know, if you do have children more so, but obviously if you're just busy with other things in life, you're constantly thinking about those things. And we put ourselves to the bottom of the pile, really, that our fun can come when there's time for it.   The Jodies (08:19) Yeah. Yeah. I think women spend a lot of time thinking about the shoulds. And sometimes when I'm talking to women and I'm just like, you can do something just cause you want to, you know that, right? And it feels shocking and it's shocking that that feels shocking.  It shouldn't. We need to go out and have fun.   Amy (08:37) Absolutely. You mentioned as we were starting that you guys come from a brand and marketing background. The name House of Zim, where does that originate from and what does it mean to you?   The Jodies (08:48) Yeah, well, so Zim means my song, my joy. And then we knew that we loved that word. And then we just had a bit of a play and an experiment. And then we loved the idea of House of Zim because it, you know, I know it sounds so trite, but we do really want to build a community of women who respect that pursuing joy is important. I just got given.   I just got given a voucher for a massage and it's one hour massage and that's lovely. But I know that it was $160. And in my head, I was like $160 for a massage. That's one hour. I mean, women come to House of Zim and it's $99 and they get four hours of joy and they're dancing and they get to hang out with their mates and you know, there's all these things. So I just think it's interesting thinking about putting something as simple as dancing and just going after joy at the... the top of your list that is going to be good for you. But we just feel really passionately about that.   Amy (09:48) Absolutely. And what do you think women are actually releasing on a dance floor that they don't have space or time to release elsewhere?   The Jodies (09:56) I think it's like, I mean, I do love a massage too. You don't get me wrong. You know, I think it's like you were saying before, it's like a freedom of spirit thing. It's like tapping into that kind of carefree, like when you're young and you're just not thinking about it, it's like going to a different place. I think it's freedom. Amy (10:15)  I think there's an element and I'm actually getting goosebumps now actually, because I think some of the tunes, as you said, it is tapping into some of those songs. So it is almost bringing back those memories as well. When you hear the song, takes you back to some of those nights out at whether it was other friends or, you know, university, college, whatever that really, it was like you had no responsibilities.   The Jodies (10:37) Yeah. It's in your bones. It's so true. It's that whole remembering who you are and feeling alive things, tapping into something that's just been a bit squashed for a while. Yeah. I was just going to add, Amy, you know, when you hear a song and you can't help but throw your hands in the air, or you have to go, I love this song. And that feeling is so, it's just an instant dopamine release. It's so good.  or dopamine hit, I guess, but yeah, I just think it's really important. And I've been thinking about going into a bit of a scientific space, but I was reading a study the other day, and it was saying about how people that dance are that much more empathetic and closer to their friends, because when you're dancing, you have to innately watch the other person see what their body's doing. You're looking at their facial expressions and the joy or, know, if sometimes if they're awkward, hopefully not.   But you're sort of learning all of those things. So your empathy is building and also you're feeling that much of a stronger connection to your friend. And dance floors are really powerful for that. And they have been dropping away. So there's a lot of research coming out at the moment. Because now you see the memes of sort of old dance floors back in the 90s. And now somebody goes to see a DJ and stands there with their phone.   Amy (11:54) Yeah, and they're still not fully immersive in it because they're like, they're doing it to either record it so your attention split or then they're immediately sharing it on social media. So then you're like, you're sharing this for others, not just for yourself.   The Jodies (12:10) Right, yeah. So it's so lovely to just be there, be with your friends, have that moment in time to just focus on each other.   Amy (12:19) Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit further about you two working together because obviously friends, previous business owners together, and sisters a lot. I mean, you can't really get away from each other.   The Jodies (12:29) She follows me everywhere.     Amy (12:32) What do you two see that you both bring to the party? You know, do you have clear - right, you're that sort of roles and responsibility on this? How does the dynamic work?   The Jodies (12:42) She's in charge of delusional optimism. I'm a reality check. The reality. I don't think I'm a pessimist, but you know. That's exactly what might happen. Her brother says to me all the time as well "I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist." That's true. I am sometimes a bit of a delusional optimist. I do think you need that in business, I think you need absolute conviction in what you're doing to last the distance.   Amy (13:15) Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And how do you make decisions when you disagree?   The Jodies (13:21) Yeah, that's a good one. Because we do, we're quite different. We're different in our approaches to working. So Jodie is a very deep thinker and deep research. And I like a lot of research, but I, what was that word? A satisficer?  The maximiser and the satisficer. Is that what it is? So a satisficer is like, sometimes people can go too deep and they'll spend all this time researching and figuring out.   But in doing all of that, once you make your decision, it's like you've got more information behind you to sometimes doubt that decision. The satisfier sort of goes and looks about and figures it out. And then it's like, yep, I'm going to go with that. And then they don't really have a question in their decision because they haven't got all that other information. I do. I like to move fast. Jodie, she likes to think about things longer and she will slow me down when it is needed. And it absolutely is needed sometimes. But I don't think we really disagree on big things.   No. So really interesting about music though, because obviously music is a really important part of house music. And I'm 44, Jodie's 48. So just that four years /of when we went out/ I think we grew up on different continents. I'm UK. So I think there's songs that are really like, I don't know, ones that you're really passionate about. I'm like, I've heard that before. I didn't think of that. Yeah. And vice versa, obviously.   Amy (14:46) Course yeah that I didn't even think of that.   The Jodies (14:50) So we have a lot of good, robust conversations around music. But we always figure it out. Yeah. We're pretty lucky.   Amy (14:57) Also what's important in any sort of business working partnership, whether it's your actual business or you're just in a team together, is you've taken the time to understand the different working styles and understand where your strengths or differences lie for sure. I could definitely relate to what you were saying because I Alex and I are the same. I'm probably the researcher, the over-researcher and then get stalled where Alex will, you know, the shoot from the hip and just do things and make them happen. But then sometimes without any research. then you're like, ummm.    I'm going to ask you a couple of myth busters. What's the biggest misconception about women only events?   The Jodies (15:35) That they're for lesbians. The amount of people I get messaging me asking that and I'm like, no,  I mean, lesbians are more than welcome, but it's just women having fun with women. And I won't reveal who said it, but a man said to Jodie, so there's not going to be men and women will still have a good time. Nonplus that straight women would want to go out just by themselves. I just was like, honestly, it's so good. It's so much fun.   Amy (16:08) And we touched on when we spoke the other week, Jodie, that it's not until you go, you realise how you never realise, not that there's an issue with men in a bar or a nightclub, but actually just when it was completely same sex, that extra level of just total relaxation. know someone's not going to, shall we say, pick you up or you're going out and then somebody's trying to talk to you and really, yeah, you're out with your mates and you're trying to catch up with them. You're not looking to necessarily make new mates.   What do people assume about women 35 plus that you think is completely wrong?   The Jodies (16:42) That they need to do more, that they need to be more productive or manage their emotions better to be happier and satisfied in their life. I just don't think that's true at all. I think they should have the emotions they need to have. And I think they should go at the pace that they need to go at. And I think they should definitely put House of Zim in that mix. Shameless self-promotion.   Amy (17:08) Yeah, I love it. And what's the most unexpected thing women have said to you after one of the events so far?   The Jodies (17:16) God, we've had so many good comments. I mean, a woman came up to me and said that she hadn't had that much fun since her wedding, which was, thought 15 years ago, but actually 20 years ago. And I'm just like, that's wild. Like that is really wild. You know, she said that her cheeks were hurting from smiling. It was such a good time. That was unexpected and really beautiful to hear. And we've also had women come up to us and say, my God, I feel like we found our tribe. And that lady, well, there was actually three of them, but so they must've been late fifties, I think. And I've definitely been feeling when I've been going out, I don't feel as comfortable as I used to. And so I can only imagine, you know, with a few extra years on that, that it might feel even more so. But they were  amazing on the dance floor, you know, they, they wanted to jump around and have a lot of fun and they really felt like they were allowed the space to do that there. So it was great. Yeah. Maybe the most unexpected thing was the woman that said, can I bring my 18 year old daughter? Yeah.     Amy (18:16) Once you can actually notice that you're too young for this.   The Jodies (18:20) I said, I'm so sorry. really want the women coming to understand the crowd that's going to be there. But I love that she was like, this is so good. I want to bring her, but no, not allowed.   Amy (18:31) This is our space now, you know, it's back our time. And what you said, Jodie, then about, you know, that person saying that maybe the last time they had that much fun was their wedding. Actually, yeah, the reality is that now, you know, we're in our 30s, 40s, some of the time, opportunity to dance, to go out is like, it's a wedding. It's a wedding. Or it's some other function, whether that's again, I don't know, location, proximity, obviously finances. Again, if I think back to those university days and just after.   The Jodies (18:49) Totally.   Amy (19:00) You know, you're out two to three times a week. Yeah. And it was a very clear, you know, Thursday was at so-and-so, Friday there, Saturday there. And, you know, it was literally that's what your money was being spent on really. And then outfits to go out. I think, yeah, other life kicks in.   The Jodies (19:17) The thing is though, yeah, when you're going out all the time, you know, there's lots of fun to be had, but when you're not going out as often, it's too unpredictable. So it's like, maybe there was a good DJ last week, maybe this week there's no DJ. So it's so hit and miss. And that's kind of disappointing if you're not going out.   Amy (19:32) And the friction, like you said, that logistics to go or organise things, people just put it in their, it's just, too hard basket to bring it all together. And then they're missing out on the fun.   The Jodies (19:42) Totally. I mean, before we started House of Zim, I always used to say what you were saying about weddings, you know, the only time you really get to have a good dance these days is weddings. And I'm like, now I'm going to have to wait for second weddings.   Amy (19:53) And then a bit of a downer, but it's a funeral.   The Jodies (19:56) Honestly, that's what we used to talk about. But now, I mean, we do House of Zim once every two months. We obviously understand that women aren't going to be going out all the time. But I think it's really lovely, as Jodie said, to know that it's a guarantee that you're not really taking the gamble. Whether it's going to be the right music or that the crowd are going to be okay.   Amy (20:18) Well, before I jump into asking you three of our Really Good Conversation card questions, and you can both answer this or one of you, but does a conversation come to mind that has either changed the direction of your life or had a profound effect on your life?   The Jodies (20:34) Yes, can I ask? I feel like I'm jumping in. Well, for me, that would be when I first interviewed with Jodie. I'd come to Australia and I was meant to be traveling, but I loved it so much I thought, perhaps I'll stay. I had to convince my best mate who was with me. And I knew that I had six weeks to try and find a role that would sponsor me to stay in Australia. And I'd been going to these interviews and I just hadn't clicked, I really wasn't finding anybody that I liked. I was talking to a lot of recruiters and then I saw this one ad that talked about a shiny disco ball in their studio and that they loved the way that the light hit it and that they were drinking affogatoes and they were, you know, they all were like a family and all different stuff. Anyway, I answered it, but I was like, you know what, I'm just going to go all in. So my cover letter was like, I love disco balls. And I sort of really let all my personality out.   And then Jodie rang me personally because she had responded to the way that I had written, but I thought she was a recruiter. So I was a little bit like not really leaning into the conversation. So I was so over talking to recruiters. And then when I actually arrived at the studio and we got talking, it was just an instant click. And so then Jodie hired me with a view to sponsorship and she did. She allowed me to stay in Australia. She introduced me to her brother who also worked for her.   I then married him, I have my children. So really, this person changed everything about my life. And in the years where I stepped back from Tiny Hunter, which I will say, when you're running a business together, it's really hard, you'll know this. And to tell Jodie that I was stepping back was honestly one of the hardest things I've ever done because I believed in that business and I didn't want to leave it because I know it's really stressful.   Amy (22:05) That's amazing.   The Jodies (22:25) But I needed to do that for myself and that's a hard thing for women to do as well. And Jodie was incredible. And I'd go out with her afterwards and be like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'd feel like the shell of a person and I just don't know. And she always had time and space for me and we'd go on walks and figure it out or we'd have wine or we'd go out dancing, you know, and she just always was there, even though I'd said, see you, I'm just going to leave you with that business.   And then when I went back to her and said, hey, do you want to do something else, even though you're really busy? She was like, yeah, sure.   Amy (22:58) I love it. And it's amazing to create that friendship relationship with each other. So yeah, it's super inspiring.   The Jodies (23:05) Talk about how good I am. No.   Amy (23:07) The other Jodie is kind of like, yeah, you married my brother, so I kind of have to be nice to you because…   The Jodies (23:15) She could have married him sooner, so I didn't have to pay all that money to make her a permanent resident.     Amy (23:24) Brilliant. Right. Well, I'm going to put you on the spot and you can both answer these or however you feel from our really good conversations.    Question number one, describe yourself using only three words.   The Jodies (23:33) What's in the deck?   Gosh. Curious, loyal, determined.    I'll pass.   Amy (23:52) You're like, yeah, yeah, those ones for me as well.    Question number two, what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?   The Jodies (24:00) I mean, when I think about what I want to pass on to my kids, it's like save money, invest, buy property, do all those things earlier. I think that's the only thing that I think about that I'm like, I wish my parents had talked to me about any of that sort of financial side of things. I would be much further ahead if I had. Yep. I'm ever the delusional optimist, kind of the opposite. I want my kids to know that, I guess, really understand that money isn't the be all and end all and that you can find happiness in somebody who makes you tell me, feel calm and going outside and looking at a tree. You know, I sort of do a little bit on the opposite side, I like money too.   Amy (24:44) Can you balance each other out? The children will be cousins.   The Jodies (24:48) Yeah, exactly. The aunties do both sides.   Amy (24:50) Go to the alternate aunties for some, you know, grounding and some blue sky thinking as well. So, love it.    Question number three, if you came with a warning label, what would it say?  And you can both answer this one.   The Jodies (25:04) I mean, should we answer it for each other or for ourselves?    Fun. I think mine would say "very excitable". I think get a bit over excited. Yeah, yours would say very excitable, PS, get some phone insurance. Yeah. I've lost a lot of phones over the years that the business has had to pay for because I'm so excited. I'm not thinking about where my phone is.   Amy (25:26) You need to reduce it to just the dummy phone. That's all you get. If you keep losing them, that's what you have.   The Jodies (25:32) You know what I think mine would say? She might have a poker face, but she really does like you anyway. It is hard to get past Jodie's poker face. For the first year of knowing Jodie, you're going to be like, does she like me? I'm not really sure. But actually she'll be loving you, but she's just got this, she's like an iceberg, you know, only a little bit above the water and so much underneath.   Amy (25:53) Wow. I think for me, you see all of my emotions, reactions over my face, I'm probably not good at hiding.   The Jodies (25:59) Well, you know, we're very opposite. Yeah, are. We've got nothing in common. What are we doing here?   Amy (26:06) Yeah, this is how it works though. Brilliant. Well, and the last question I love to ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?   The Jodies (26:17) You go, we've, we've talked about this and I love your answer. The first one of the second one. Okay. Well, the first thing that comes to mind for me. So my father passed away a long time ago and my mom is quite sick with dementia. And I think you take for granted when you're growing up, all the stories that they talk about family history, what's happened in their lives. And we just had a moment, me and my siblings, where we were like, had a question and we were like,   We've got no one to ask. So I think I would just say to my dad, tell me everything, like tell me all about your life. But this time I would take notes.   Amy (26:55) Beautiful. Did you want to add one, Jodie?   The Jodies (26:59) Well, I can add it because I'm sort of part of your family, but these guys had a great granddad called Albert Whelan and he was from a really wealthy family. They were Jewish and he fell in love with a Catholic girl. And so he left the family and he was disowned. He was disowned. But he went on to become really famous in the UK. He was part of the Royal Variety performances. He was famous for whistling, which sounds so random these days, but it was a big skill back in the day. And yeah, he went on, Is Your Life. He had a beautiful book. He was really renowned. And so we just like to hear about what that was like and was it worth it? And did he think about that sliding door moment? Was it worth it walking away from all the money for the love? Jo would say, yes. And I'd say, that would have been good security.   Amy (27:50) That's the thing, every time they maybe would have had an argument or disagreement, you'd be slightly like, I could be now, you know, chilling on a yacht, not dealing with you.   The Jodies (28:00) Exactly.   Amy (28:02) Brilliant ladies. Thank you so much for your time today and everything that you've shared. Give us just a quick snapshot of what's on the horizon for House of Zim in 2026 and, you know, a bit of a shout out of where people can find more information on, on you guys and events and such.   The Jodies (28:19) So we're at www.houseofzim.com and we're on Instagram and Facebook and we've just started on TikTok. We are hoping to launch a podcast this year, which is really exciting. Just get everybody talking about, you know, how to find joy in their life and how to bring that out at this stage in your life. And we're also creating merchandise. So we've got two awesome t-shirts at the moment, but lots more design in the works and I'm very passionate about creating like a little party capsule wardrobe, you know, these gorgeous glittery jackets and some sequin pants. And yeah, we're excited to do that too.   Amy (28:58) Brilliant, well best of luck with it all and I look forward to seeing you guys on the dance floor soon.   The Jodies (29:03) See you then!

Summary In this episode, Amy is joined by Isiah McKimmie to talk about intimacy, desire and the conversations couples often avoid. They explore why desire changes over time, how comparison and unrealistic expectations create pressure, and why focusing on what gets in the way of connection can be more helpful than trying to "do more". Guest Isiah McKimmie is a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist who works with individuals and couples around intimacy, desire and connection. Overview With Valentine's Day approaching, this conversation looks beyond the romance and into the realities of long-term relationships; the conversations we avoid, the expectations we carry, and the quiet ways intimacy can start to feel harder over time. Isiah shares what couples most commonly come to therapy for, and why the issue they arrive with is often only part of the picture. Together, Amy and Isiah explore why sex and intimacy feel so emotionally loaded, how avoidance can slowly erode connection, and why comparison often creates unnecessary pressure. They also unpack how desire naturally fluctuates across a relationship, the role emotional and mental load play in intimacy, and why removing what blocks connection is often more powerful than trying to add more.     Key takeaways Why the issue couples come to therapy with is often only part of what's really going on The conversations couples avoid most Why changes in desire are normal across long-term relationships The impact of emotional and mental load on intimacy and connection Why improving intimacy often starts with removing what gets in the way, rather than trying to do more For more information on Isiah McKimmie https://isiah-mckimmie.com/   Transcript  Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Isiah McKimmie, a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist who works with individuals and couples around intimacy, desire and connection. Welcome to the podcast.  Isiah: Thank you so much for having me, Amy. Amy: Thank you for joining me. And I'm so looking forward to this conversation because suddenly we are in February and February is supposed to be the month of love. Valentine's Day is coming up and whether you're in a relationship or not, that could come with all of its different pros, cons, emotions. And I just thought this was a great time to have a conversation with someone like yourself and chat a little bit more about some of the sex, intimacy, the conversations we're avoiding perhaps in relationships as well. Firstly, before we jump in, what do you think of the world of Valentine's Day? Isiah: So this is an interesting question. You've put me on the spot straight away. It's such an interesting time for relationships because we come through December and we see the most amount of breakups of any month of the year. And of course, so much strain on relationships. And then we come into January that has dating Sunday, the most number of sign-ups on, on dating apps. Everyone has a renewed hope for their relationships. And then we come into Valentine's Day. And for me, yes, it's lovely to celebrate love, but I think we should be doing this every month of the year and taking actions to strengthen our relationship every day of the year, not waiting for the one special day. So that is my, that is my tension point around it that We can't just wait for Valentine's Day to do the romantic things. Amy: Yeah. And I feel the same when it comes to, know, Mother's Day, Father's Day and such. And then it is the pressure if you are a daughter or a son, or if you now have children of yourself and it's like, well, what are we doing on this day? And we do put this extra pressure on ourselves. Valentine's been one. And I don't know, it's funny when you're in a longer term relationship, you glaze over these dates a bit more as well. Let's dive a little bit into your world. And when couples come to see you for therapy or guidance, what do they usually say the issue is?   Isiah: Yeah, so couples really show up to see me for all kinds of reasons. So I really work at the combination of couples therapy, relationship therapy, and also sexology. And so there's a really broad spectrum of challenges in there. Really the three biggest topics that people show up with are for a mismatch in sexual desire, usually because one person has noticed a drop in their desire levels over the course of the relationship and it's starting to cause confusion, anxiety or friction between the couple. They show up because they're in a cycle of arguments that they can't seem to resolve, bickering with each other, arguments going in circles, arguments starting over silly little things, and generally just feeling disconnected. as well. So couples feeling like they're growing apart, they still like each other, but they're wondering if they're becoming more like friends or housemates. they've kind of lost some of the connection and spark that, makes their relationship feel special. Amy: And how often do you find what they come in asking for help with is perhaps not actually the issue that they're experiencing. Isiah: Yeah, look, a lot of the time and the way myself and my team look at relationships is very holistically. So we have a lot of research and data that has been gathered over the past 50 years on what makes relationships really strong and lasting and what will predict the end of a relationship. And there are about 30 different factors that we actually measure for in the assessment stage of a relationship. And of course, if you haven't studied this, if no one has told you all the different things that we need to make or break a relationship, you're not gonna even know the things that you're doing that are really right necessarily. And you might be overlooking the things that are getting in the way. And I certainly see this when couples show up. with a mismatch in desire levels. And a lot of couples will say, this really the last piece of the puzzle. It's the only thing we generally have a really good relationship aside from this. And although that might be true when we start asking a few more questions, we often notice that there are some underlying challenges that have just been overlooked because they're just so busy, you know, getting on with life, all these things have kind of crept in slowly. And so that can be things like how the mental load is shared. can be how much time a couple is spending together during the day. It can be how much fun and playfulness they're having. Of course, also the way that they're communicating plays an enormous role in the relationship. And we know that it doesn't matter what couples are arguing about, it's how they're having those conversations together that makes the biggest difference for the success of their relationship. Amy: Yeah. Gosh, and you touch on their conversations, which is obviously something that we're all about. And what do you find the hardest conversations couples are avoiding or struggle to have? Isiah: Yeah, I think every couple will have their own hot button topic usually that they know is kind of heading into danger territory. The really common topics are around sex, around finances, around parenting and around housework and chores. Amy: Yeah, definitely. And I definitely know sometimes if we're having, you know, Alex and I conversations, it might be getting to the end of the night, just as you're about to go to bed. And then Alex might bring up the topic of finances. And I think about literally tried to go to sleep. Now is not the time to get into a finance conversation. Isiah: It's so tricky for couples who are so busy and who have children and are not getting privacy for so much of the day, but then you know that something's on your mind. We have really good data that shows couples who are more connected during the day are more likely to have conversations that go well at the end of the day. So for couples who've been disconnected, know, kind of ships passing in the night, they're off to work, they're busy, they get home. You know, they don't even really kind of see each other. They haven't actually checked in with each other. When one of them raises a sensitive topic, if that couple again is disconnected, that conversation is more likely to end with kind of tension or in a heated way afterwards. So it's part of why we want to make sure, at least I do as a couple's therapist, that I'm addressing a relationship holistically. And I'm giving couples tools so that they can strengthen their relationship holistically. Amy: Yeah, brilliant. And why particularly the topic of sex and intimacy? Why does that feel so emotionally loaded?   Isiah: Sex is such a deeply personal, vulnerable experience. And it's a topic that most of us are not taught how to talk about. know, when, when we often think about growing up, for most of us, sex really wasn't discussed in our household. you know, we might've overheard awkward conversations. We might've got a tiny little bit of sex education, but we're not taught how to talk about it. openly, we're often not even taught the anatomically and physically correct words to use. So when we're not taught that as children and young adults, we are going to struggle with that later in life. and, and that's, you know, consequently what we see in a lot of couples and a lot of people will find it easier to actually have sex than to talk about it with their partner. so you know, showing up in therapy to finally open these topics around sex can feel really vulnerable, which is why actually therapy can also be really helpful because we can really hold couples and support them to have those difficult but really important and sometimes really good conversations. Amy: Yeah, and wow, it's the same that kind of topic like money, know, when people, again, you may inherit this from their parents and it's like, you know, we don't talk about money, you know, that's crude to talk about, sort of sex is in that same vein. Isiah: Absolutely, and there can be so much emotion around it. Embarrassment, shame, vulnerability. You know, sometimes it can feel like the success of the relationship is riding on the sexual component when it's become a heated issue between people and that makes it harder to talk about again. yeah, it makes so much sense that that this is tricky. Amy: And what conversations do you think actually need to happen before couples talk about the topic of sex? Isiah: So I always want to make sure that couples can talk about any topic well before they do this. And that means not using damaging communication techniques like criticism and blame and shaming a partner. We want to make sure that both people can share how they're feeling about it really well, that they can gently name their underlying needs around something, but that they can also listen and really try to understand their partner on this because so often both partners really have some deep and sensitive feelings about sex. A partner with lower desire is often feeling guilty and worried. about what it will mean for the relationship and they might try to avoid the conversation so they don't have to deal with it. A partner with a higher desire is often feeling rejected and hurt and angry, but underneath that often really sad and lonely. And so they also need to be able to find ways to express that really well, rather than going into again, criticism or starting conversations that would lead to conflict. Amy: Yeah, gosh, that's great. And you've touched on already, you know, there's so much research and data in this space. And, you know, one thing that I saw you speak about recently was the research suggests that couples on average have sex about once a week. Yes. people hearing that, they might think, great, we're doing it more or we're doing it on the average or others are like, we're falling way below that. So firstly, where does this sort of data actually come from? Isiah: There are people who work for universities who get to do large scale studies that study this, survey people, that do in-depth interviews. One of the couples therapy methods that I have learned has actually followed couples and kept updated with their relationship is and what's going in their life for about 20 years at a time. we're really lucky to have all of this data and I think often it can be really helpful because if we're just listening to what other people are saying or we're kind of watching the ideal out in the media, then any kind of comparisons to that are often going to be really unhelpful. So having some validated studies are enormously helpful for us to kind of work from and to inform us. Of course though, when we hear things like this is average, it is the average. And especially when it comes to things like the frequency of sex, I would always say to people, it is not about the amount, it's about finding what works for both of you in that and that you and your partner are somewhat aligned around that. It is normal for couples to have different desire levels and our desire levels will fluctuate over time, but we want to find some kind of balance together so that it doesn't become a point of tension and disconnection in a relationship. Amy: Yeah, because I imagine those sort of averages or stats for people just living in the real world actually may feel quite unhelpful really or make them think they have a problem when they didn't have a problem. Do you think it's helpful for individuals? Isiah: Look, there are times where I think it can be to have somewhat of a baseline to be able to say, okay, well, you know, actually, even though I might want sex three times a week, that actually isn't kind of the reality of what is going on. To hear that it fluctuates, I think can be really helpful. I have heard a story from a colleague who said she had a couple come in and they wanted to have sex more often, really common. They were having sex about once a year. And, you know, they were saying, we, yeah, we want to have it more often. But as she asked questions about it of why do you want to and how often would you want to, for them, that was all about what they had heard about it. And rather than what they what they really wanted. And so she was able to Really kind of say to them, if you are both happy with having sex once a year, that absolutely isn't a problem at all. But of course, if a couple's coming in and one person is saying, I'm feeling lonely and I'm feeling rejected and I'm feeling sad because we used to have sex really frequently. And now it's once a month or less. And it's a really important part of how I feel close to you and how I want to connect with you. Then there's something. for us to look out there about what might be getting in the way of that and how they can work together to strengthen firstly their relationship and then what they can do to find more alignment around sex. Amy: And have you seen some common trends of what does change desire? You know, I imagine through somebody's, know, sexual lifespan, it is probably going to go in different peaks and troughs, if you will, for various reasons. Isiah: Yeah. that will be so someone's desire level and the fluctuations in that will often be quite personal to them. So a really helpful way to think about this is as our desire being like a car. like sex drive, if you will. get a car moving, we need to add in accelerators, but we also need to remove brakes. And so sexual desire is really similar. We can't just focus on adding in accelerators, things like sex toys or lingerie or date nights, or, trying to just do it. For most people, a way to increase desire will actually be to remove the brakes that are getting in the way to look at what those are before they start looking at adding in accelerators. So some really common breaks would be tiredness and exhaustion, really common. for women particularly who have young children, sometimes hormonal changes that can cause pain and discomfort, worry that the kids will walk in, changed body image, someone not feeling good about themselves, someone not actually enjoying the sex they are having, someone feeling disconnected in their relationship, feeling overwhelmed with the mental load, feeling like their partner doesn't value. connecting with them and only want sex or feeling pressured to have sex. All of those things would be getting in the way and would often contribute to fluctuations in desire. Amy: Yeah, that's a great answer. And I actually was going to ask a question, but I almost feel like you have answered it there to say if someone is feeling disconnected and wants to boost intimacy, where is a healthy place to start rather than just, yeah, going, have more sex. But you're highlighting actually consider what's happening and those perhaps breaks and blockers that are going on in your life. Isiah: Yeah, and again, I think it's important to look at the relationship as a whole. So we use a method that I developed called the relationship harmony method in the therapy sessions and programs that we do. And it really looks at the four key areas and the four key steps that couples need to address for strong and harmonious relationship. We first need to look at vision and goals. It can be so easy for couples to get caught up on what's wrong and what isn't working, but looking for what you want to create together and looking for the positives in the relationship are a really important first step. We also want to build connection and friendship outside of the bedroom. So there's some of those things I mentioned before, like spending time together, going on date nights, having fun and playfulness together, making sure you feel respected by your partner. The next thing is communication, how you talk about difficult topics, how you handle conflict together, how you repair afterwards. And we have a lot of scripts and processes that we use couples to help do this, because if you are not able to do this well, as we talked about, that's going to impact everything. And I can't expect someone to feel in the mood in the bedroom if they're coming from a place of tension or they've just had an argument with someone. And then absolutely, we wanna look at sexual intimacy because sex is a beautiful and important and special part of an intimate partnership for most people. And so we wanna create all of the conditions we can for sex to feel alive and enjoyable for both partners and to be playful and to be something that both people look forward to. And yes, reducing those breaks and increasing accelerators are part of how couples can do that. But again, needs to fit into, it needs to fit into a whole. Amy: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's sort of a phrase that came to my mind when I was preparing for this podcast was that old phrase, sex, love and rock and roll. What comes to mind for you when you hear that phrase? Isiah: It brings to mind how sex can be an alive and fun part of a relationship. I love it. Amy: think for some, it does over romanticise perhaps intimacy in a way that does set some people up for feeling like they're going to fail because it's not electric alive and... Isiah: I think there are so many things in our society and in our culture that make relationships so difficult for us. A lot of the unrealistic expectations that we have around, know, when you find the one, everything will just work. And, know, and that you won't need to put in that effort. You know, things like you won't actually need to communicate. during sex because it'll just happen the way it does in the movies and everyone will know exactly the right thing to do. I think there is so much that sets us up to be disappointed and often let down by relationships. And the reality is that relationships are hard. All relationships are hard. Intimate partnerships are especially hard and they do require our effort and attention. They often require us learning new tools and skills to help them thrive and they're things that so many of us really, really weren't taught. You know, and we're just doing the very best that we can. So we think, yeah, there is, there is a lot that we see that, that doesn't support us well in this area. Amy: And what do you think is perhaps either something missing or a misconception about the stories we tell ourselves about, you know, long-term relationships, long-term love and connection? Isiah: One of the things that is really important in my work is that desire can be sustained. You know, I think for a long time there was a story that sex just goes in a long-term relationship or when women get to a certain age or you know that couples just go through a period and then it's not important anymore. And we actually know and again through the research, following couples throughout their lives that intimacy and desire can be maintained, but there are certain steps that we need to take around that. So it's possible. And we know that women will often have a spike in their desire levels at any age if they get into a new relationship. And so for women, it's not that desire is over. It doesn't necessarily end with menopause. There are women who are having wonderful, enjoyable sex. well through menopause and beyond and actually say that their desire increases. So it's very, very dependent on the person, but to say that it can be, it really can be an ongoing part of a relationship. Amy: Brilliant. Because yeah, I think that is what people sort of think, well, that, you know, you've been together forever, these things fade off and things like that. then people buy then into that narrative and story. And like you said, perhaps don't consider putting in the extra effort that we've been talking about. If someone listening is feeling seen by this conversation and wants an honest conversation, how would you encourage them to have it, to start to open the dialogue? Isiah: Hmm. When you're opening up this conversation, it often really depends on how you think your partner will receive it and where the relationship is. think the important thing is to have the conversation. So we know that couples will often wait years from when they first start experiencing challenges to when they reach out for help and get support. And of course in that, and the average amount of time is seven years, in those seven years, disconnection and resentment build and it gets harder and harder to repair. So I will always encourage people to have the conversation early and to keep having the conversations, to keep checking in about how things are going. And if you do have feedback for your partner about... what you're feeling in the relationship and what you're missing. There's a few steps that I recommend to do that. And firstly, of course, we want to choose a good time. We wanna make sure that they have capacity. We wanna make sure that we're not about to rush out somewhere or hopefully not be interrupted in the middle of something. We wanna let them know our intentions for this because Most people will have good intentions with starting a conversation like this. The intention would be that this relationship is really important to me. And I want to talk about how we can make it better, how we can make sure it lasts for many years to come. So letting your partner know that, letting them know some of the positives to begin with as well. So they don't feel like they're being criticized or attacked. And then if there is something that You want to be different. We want to aim to be as specific as possible so that the person can understand it. And we want to speak using that really common eye language. And I know a lot of people will probably heard that speaking eye. So rather than you're not doing this, you know, I'm feeling this because these needs aren't being met. Can we talk about this? Can we look at what we can do on this together? Amy: Yeah, brilliant. And I think hopefully that will just give some inspiration or thoughts to anyone listening. What do you wish more people understood earlier about intimacy? Isiah: Ooh, about sexual intimacy or emotional intimacy? Amy: both. You'll have to educate us on the, yes, the difference. Isiah: Well, yeah, I mean, think for me, intimacy, I mean, is so much more than sex, but can include sex. You know, it's how much you know about someone, how much you allow yourself to be seen by them. You know, and sexual intimacy, I think, also goes beyond the act of sex. It's how physically affectionate you are with someone, how much you can allow that kind of sexual aliveness to show. around them, how much you feel comfortable talking about sex with them and sharing some of those inner sexual thoughts. One thing that I wish people knew more of around sex is that it's a skill that we can learn. And just like relationships, most of us weren't taught the skills for really wonderful, enjoyable sex. So much of our sex education focuses on what what not to do, how not to get pregnant, how not to catch an infection, rather than how to make sure that you're enjoying yourself, how to make sure your partner is enjoying yourself, rather than all of the different ways our bodies can experience orgasms or other pleasure, or that enjoyment and sexual intimacy doesn't even need to include penetration or orgasm. And that that we can learn all of these things. We can improve our education and we can learn really practical tools and skills that help both people enjoy it more. Amy: Brilliant. Thank you so much. Now, before I put you on the spot with some of our really good conversation cards, I am also just going to ask you from your own journey, has there been a conversation in your life that has changed your direction in life? Isiah: Gosh, that's an interesting question. One particular conversation. Amy: Yeah, if you can think of anything, it might stand out. Isiah: No, but I will say through my psychotherapy training and through my intimacy training, I have really learned to have conversations on a deeper level. I suppose this is what we do as therapists. We're helping guide the people we're working with into thinking about things in a different way, in a deeper way, getting to the root cause of what's going on. And those conversations are often really vulnerable. And so as part of the training that I went through to learn how to help other people do that, that is reflected in my own life and in the conversations I have with my own friends and, my own lovers and, you know, and the people that I meet. So I don't think I, I go back to one particular conversation, but that I've learned a new, a new quality of conversations that. that has changed a lot for me. Amy: brilliant, fantastic. Well I'm now going to ask you three questions from our card. Question number one, what would you say your greatest strength is? Isiah: Right. I am incredibly patient. Amy: Not many people are, I don't think. Isiah: Really, yeah, that is something that I have come to learn about myself through the course of therapy in particular and with couples therapy. And yeah, and absolutely, I would say that I am. Amy: Brilliant! Question number two. How has your life turned out differently to what you had expected? Isiah: my goodness, just completely. I would never have imagined why I didn't even know such a thing as a sex therapist and sexologist existed growing up. This could never have been something that I would have imagined for myself. Amy: And as we touched on before, yeah, sex and things like that weren't really, aren't really talked about with parents around the dinner table. So yeah, you wouldn't have known, that's what I'm going to be when I grow up, Isiah: Absolutely not and probably would not have been encouraged either, you know, if your child came home and said that. Amy: Yeah, question number three. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Isiah: that the quality of our relationships impacts almost every measurable area of our health and wellbeing. And so by improving the quality of our relationships, by learning about our skills, ourselves, by getting tools and skills and practicing doing that better, often with support, if we need to, we can improve our health. and wellbeing and longevity. But if we have children, those benefits then also get passed on to them. Amy: Wow, yes, that is a powerful reminder. Thank you. And the finishing question I like to ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Isiah: I would absolutely ask my grandmother and I think I find it really hard to talk about it without being, becoming emotional around it. I don't know the question that I would ask her. I just know that if I had the chance to ask one more question and to hear from her, I would, I would do that. Amy: that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing and thank you for everything that you have shared today. It honestly has been amazing just to hear not only what you see from couples, but again, you've shared a lot of great advice and tips inadvertently as we've chatted that I think people could hopefully take away quite a few positive nuggets for, know, in their own lives and relationships. So, no, I really do appreciate everything you've shared. And if you'd like to just tell our guests where they can find out more about you, perhaps what you've got coming up in 2026 as well. Isiah: So absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. It is always such a privilege to share on these topics that I know can make such a difference and that we so often don't get to talk about.  So I'm very, very easy to find online. There are not any other Isiah McKimmie out there. So by searching Isiah McKimmie, you will find me on Instagram where I share a lot of information and tools and advice. And you can find my website where we have some free resources and some introductory tools. can also find out about doing therapy with myself and my team. And the really exciting thing that I have coming up this year is we are launching romantic weekends away for couples with the first one being on the Gold Coast at the end of March. They're a Friday night to Sunday. weekend for a number of couples at a time where they get time to relax. There are fun, playful activities that bring them closer. And you'll also hear me talk about more of the things that we spoke about today. So you can also take away some tools and skills for your relationship and get benefits long after the weekend finishes. Amy: That's brilliant, exciting times ahead and I wish you all the best with those. Thank you. And thank you very much. Isiah: Thank you so much for having me, Amy.

In 2025 Amy spoke to a range of amazing guests from across around the world - including UK, US, Cyprus & Australia!  This fun episode is a snapshot of the responses our guests gave when asked the question "If you came with a warning label, what would it say?" This question always gets a laugh. Ask it to someone in your life and see what conversations spark Check out all our guests from 2025 and join us in 2026 for more Really Good Conversations. 

In this episode, Amy is joined once again by former Sportsgirl and Sussan CEO, award-winning leader, mentor, speaker and author, Colleen Callander. Colleen kicked off our 2025 guest line-up with "From Shop Floor to CEO: Burnout, Boundaries & Bold Leadership", and now we've come full circle as she returns to close out the year and explore the theme of confidence from her new book, The Power of Confidence. Amy begins by asking Colleen how her year has unfolded since their January conversation, and what tips she has for avoiding the end-of-year panic if we didn't achieve everything we expected. From there, they dive into the idea that confidence isn't something we're born with, but a skill and muscle we can build over time.  Colleen unpacks the cost of low confidence, the stories and self-talk that quietly hold women back, and the importance of surrounding yourself with a supportive inner circle. She explains how to challenge your inner critic, rewrite your story, and talk to yourself like you would your best friend. Colleen also shares her 30-day confidence transformation, showing how small, realistic daily actions can create surprisingly big shifts. This is an uplifting, practical conversation to help you close the year with gratitude and step into 2026 with more courage, clarity and confidence. Key Outtakes:  Focus on what you have achieved and not what you didn't  Confidence isn't something we're born with – it's a skill we can learn, strengthen and practise over time. The stories we tell ourselves can hold us back; changing the narrative can change the trajectory of our lives. Low confidence can quietly limit opportunities, decisions and experiences across a decade or more. Your inner circle matters – the people around you can lift your confidence or slowly chip away at it. Small, consistent daily actions create meaningful confidence shifts, as outlined in Colleen's 30-day transformation.   More about Colleen:  Website https://www.colleencallander.com.au/about Podcast episode: "From Shop Floor to CEO: Burnout, Boundaries & Bold Leadership" https://www.reallygoodconversations.com.au/pages/40-from-shop-floor-to-ceo-burnout-boundaries-bold-leadership  

What does it take to chase freedom, survive the sacrifices, and rebuild a life on your own terms? In this episode, Amy sits down with award-winning entrepreneur and bestselling author Tina Tower, founder of Her Empire Builder, to unpack the truth behind ambition, reinvention, and the pursuit of freedom. Tina shares her journey from launching a tutoring centre at 20 years old to building a franchise before realising that success had come at a cost. She opens up about the years of missing bedtimes, the burnout that followed, and the decision to sell it all in search of a different way to live and work. They talk about motherhood and identity, and what it means to build something without losing yourself along the way.  They touch on cultural differences Tina has experienced between Australia and the US, the fine line between drive and obsession, and why she believes a "healthy dose of delusion" is essential for entrepreneurs. Plus, she explains why she's bringing back in-person coaching, the myth of passive income, and what makes online courses work in an age of AI. A conversation full of honesty, humour, and perspective on redefining success.   Key Outtakes:  The money hungry 17 year old that fuelled her drive The real cost of building a successful franchise business, from burnout to missing bedtimes, and why she still wouldn't change it What she learned from selling the business and navigating an identity crisis after stepping away Why Australians (and Brits!) need a "healthy dose of delusion" - and how mindset differs from the US The future of online courses in an AI world, and why Tina is returning to in-person coaching for deeper connection   For more information about Tina Tower:  Her Empire Builder https://www.herempirebuilder.com/ Tina Tower https://tinatower.com/

Have we forgotten how to think for ourselves? In this episode, Amy speaks with critical thinking and human skills expert, speaker and author Bethan Winn, whose book The Human Edge: Critical Thinking in the Age of AI explores how we can reclaim the essential skills that make us human - curiosity, courage, creativity and conversation. Bethan shares her journey from teaching in London to moving to Perth, Australia, and building a business that helps people think more clearly and confidently.  A health scare became her career turning point, leading to a keen interest in how we form beliefs, make decisions and question assumptions. Amy and Bethan discuss what critical thinking really means, how conversation can be used as a thinking tool, the role of curiosity in learning, and why overthinking can sometimes hold us back. They touch on the risks of outsourcing our judgment to AI, the problem with education systems that reward the "right" answer, and the value of sitting with discomfort and uncertainty. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by information, stuck in indecision, or simply curious about how to think more clearly in a noisy world, this conversation will help you rediscover the lost art of thinking for yourself. Key points:  Bethan's journey from teaching to focusing on critical thinking We're often taught what to think, not how to think Critical thinking blends courage, curiosity and humility The pressure of standardised tests can stifle creativity in education Conversation helps us challenge our own assumptions Overthinking can paralyse us, sometimes all we need to ask is "What's the next right thing?" AI can assist but should not replace human thinking Human connection is vital in a technology-driven world   For more information: Bethan Winn https://www.bethanwinn.com.au/  

Part 2: Moral Codes & Living on your own terms  In Part 2 of my conversation with Maz Farrelly, we move beyond the world of television and into the personal. We talk about reinvention, how to know when to walk away, and how to build a life that actually feels like yours. Maz shares her decision to leave her successful TV career and how bowl of beads in Fiji helped her decide what to do next.  We discuss what it means to live by a moral code, and how her upbringing shaped the values she now brings into every room. She shares her journey to Australia and how a 3 week visit turned into a more permanent move. We also talk about the power of saying "I don't want this anymore" and acting on it. Plus, you'll hear the story she's most proud of which left her more inspired than any industry award. This second half of the conversation is thoughtful, inspiring and filled with life lessons.   You'll laugh, you might tear up and you'll definitely walk away feeling braver.   Tune in to hear: Why Maz walked away from a successful TV career The simple check-in questions she asks herself every year A moving story of impact beyond the screen Her family's influence on her values and voice What to stop worrying about by the time you hit 40 Find out more about Maz:  Website - mazspeaksglobal.com   Showreel - https://vimeo.com/1112852043   LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maz-speaks/  

Part 1: The Truth About Reality TV & How to Cut Through the Noise What does it take to really have the X Factor? Maz Farrelly has shaped some of the biggest TV shows of our time, from Big Brother to The X Factor, and has worked with global icons from Beyoncé to Prince Charles.  Maz knows how to grab an audience's attention and hold it. Her content has been watched over 8 billion times! She's an 'Olympic-level storyteller', which is why this is Part 1 of a two-part conversation. We didn't want to cut it; we could have chatted for hours longer. After years in the TV industry, Maz now brings her storytelling skills into boardrooms, onto stages and into big businesses around the world; helping companies win attention, master storytelling, elevate customer experience and lead like a rock star. In this first part episode, Maz takes us behind the curtain of reality TV - how she got into the industy, the rise of reality TV and what it taught her about human behaviour.  As someone who grew up watching these shows, Amy found it fascinating to hear how they were created. She also shares the "doom message" she gave contestants before they entered the public eye, the hard truth about chasing fame, and why being "interesting" is a skill - especially when everyone is shouting. Maz shares her personal journey, hilarious moments to thought-provoking reflections, this episode is packed with straight-talking wisdom and media-savvy gold. Key Outtakes: How Big Brother broke the rules and changed TV forever The unseen consequences of reality TV fame What Maz told contestants before they signed up to the shows Why charisma and authenticity aren't always the same The three-question test she uses to decide if something's "interesting" And be sure to tune in for Part 2: Moral Codes, Reinvention & Living on Your Own Terms   Find out more about Maz:  Website - mazspeaksglobal.com   Showreel - https://vimeo.com/1112852043   LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maz-speaks/

What does it mean to create your future? For Natalia Talkowska, it's not just a phrase but a way of life. Born in communist Poland with dreams of working for Disney or NASA, she took her first flight to London with little money, no connections, and a big sense of curiosity. Today, she is a serial entrepreneur, six-time TEDx speaker, and the founder of Natalka, a consultancy blending neuroscience, storytelling and visual thinking to help organisations simplify complexity. In this episode, Amy chats to Natalia about her journey from childhood dreams to working around the world. They explore why visuals are such a powerful tool for human connection, how neuroscience explains the stories that stick, and why doodling might be the key to unlocking creativity and reducing stress. Natalia's shares her global projects: Doodleledo, which brings people together through doodling, and Good Souls, a movement to combat loneliness and spark meaningful conversations worldwide. Natalia reflects on connection in a digital age, how to navigate information overload, and the role she hopes AI will play in shaping our creative future. Her energy, optimism and belief in human connection are infectious. Whether you're curious about creativity, fascinated by neuroscience, or simply need encouragement to take your own leap, this conversation will leave you inspired to start creating your own future.   Key Topics:  Why Natalia believes "there are no walls, no rules" when it comes to creating your future. The neuroscience behind why stories and visuals help us connect and remember. How Doodleledo grew from a simple idea into a global movement in 27+ countries. The mission of Good Souls: fighting isolation by connecting one billion people. Natalia's hopeful but realistic view of AI's role in creativity and human imagination.   For more information: https://www.natalkadesign.com/ Doodleledo https://www.doodleledo.com/ Good Souls: https://www.instagram.com/_goodsouls/ 

What happens when a career built on success no longer feels like enough?   In this episode Amy chats to her old colleague and friend Serena Dodd.  After a high-energy career in TV and events, Serena Dodd hit a wall - literally on the way to London Waterloo - when a panic attack forced a rethink. Serena shares her journey from realising "something needs to change" to finally stepping away from the industry, then the pivotal year that followed: retraining as a coach, rebuilding confidence, and rewriting her identity. Serena explains why she calls herself an "Aliveness Coach" , what feeling alive actually means and living beyond apathy.  We also talk about Fly, the global community she's building for coaches to counter isolation, learn together and deliver richer services.    Serena's story is a reminder that success isn't static: she was a success before, she's a success now, and the courage to pivot made all the difference.   Key Topics Discussed: A London Waterloo wake-up Taking the steps to change  Moving beyond apathy: why recognising and addressing "living on autopilot" is the first step to feeling truly alive. "Aliveness" = intention + purpose, not perfection Replace "cul-de-sac thoughts" with "motorway thinking." Community (Fly) reduces isolation and elevates practice   Serena Dodd is co-author of My Dad Thinks I'm a Fairy, host of the Made to Fly podcast, and founder of Fly.  www.serenadodd.com Made To Fly Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/made-to-fly/id1827931677 Book: My Dad Thinks I'm A Fairy - Book Link Fly: The Coaches Network - www.wearefly.com   Episode Transcript:  Amy  Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by an old colleague and very good friend of mine, Serena Dodd. After a successful career in the TV and events industry, Serena retrained as a coach and now helps people navigate change with confidence. She's also the co-author of My Dad Thinks I'm a Fairy, host of the Made to Fly podcast and founder of Fly, a new community for coaches focused on connection and growth.    Welcome to the podcast, Serena. Serena Thanks for having me Avery, I've been looking forward to this for ages. Amy I almost think like we should have actually just batched together our various WhatsApp voice note chats. And I could have just top and tailed that as some sort of conversation. Serena  That's definitely not an hour's worth of content. Maybe a week. Amy It is really awesome to have you here because you've become a lifelong friend now. We have known each other well over 10 years ago, our London days of working in events and experiential. And yeah, lots of fond memories, but I'm keen today to talk a bit about your journey and probably almost since then really, cause you've had a really interesting and exciting last few years   Take us back to your world of TV and events and what initially drew you to a career in that industry.   Serena I think I always wanted to be in the entertainment industry. That was like a key driver for me. I started out as a kid and I wanted to be an actress. And then as I kind of got into my mid teens, was like, this is not quite, I didn't really want to be in the spotlight. And I've just really enjoyed the tech side. So I ended up at a theater school doing stage management and technical theater. And was from there that I got my first job and that happened to be in LA for BAFTA. So that's how I got into the TV world, but doing events. Amy  How long were you in that industry, TV and events? Serena After BAFTA, I came back to the UK and I ended up finding a role in a marketing experiential agency that was looking for people to come onto their content team freelance to do some filming in the Alps. I was like, wow, this sounds fantastic. I must do this. So I applied for this job.   And I heard nothing. And about two months later, they wrote to me and they said, brilliant, come over to the Milton Keynes ski slopes and we'll have an interview with you and we will assess your skiing and everything else. And I had told them that I could ski. Well, I could 10 years ago and hadn't been on a ski slope in that period of time. So I thought, oh my God. So I took myself down to the local dry slope to do some practices the night before, went up to Milton Keynes and it was just all men that were kind of getting interviewed. And it was a woman interview and she came up to me, she goes, listen, you're the only woman, let's have a conversation. So we had this chat and she said, what language do you speak? And I said, English. And she said, we need someone to speak, you know, French or Italian or German. And I said, well, I did say this in my CV and I did say it in my covering notes.   And she was like, never mind, let's just have a conversation. So we had this conversation. She said, look, I can't give you this job, but you know, I'll keep you in mind for another role, at which point you go 'sure'. And so about two weeks later, she contacted me and she said, we're actually looking for a senior, a senior content manager in our experiential agency. Are you interested? And I said, yeah, she said, you have to do some presenting and everything else. thought, well, I haven't done this before. So that's what I did. I ended up in the content team as it was called what was called the broadcast team then. And then it turned into a content team. This was around 2007. And I worked in that industry filming extreme sports events all around the world. And I loved it. So we worked as an agency bringing in production companies to film and then we would work with brands to work on their ROI. You know, this is all very new stuff to me. So I didn't really have a clue what I was doing. So it was quite fun and I really enjoyed it. And I was with really interesting people doing really interesting stuff. And then unfortunately, it was one of my favorite jobs, actually. Unfortunately, the recession hit my role and the business, well, the business went from about 45, 50 people to five people in one day.   God, yeah, I was actually called off holiday to come in and have this conversation because our biggest brands had kind of, they hadn't folded. But the first thing that goes is their marketing budget. So yeah, we went down to a company of five and I was in that five. And so my role changed to be more of an account handler for the events that they were doing. And that's how I got really into events. Amy  We last worked together, it would have been about 2013. you know, again, as you've already touched on, you've done some awesome work around Europe and road shows. And I always highlight for us was doing an event where we got to meet Usain Bolt in Paris and lots of awesome fun memories.  However, you decided to leave the events industry. So was there a defining moment or a gradual realisation that told you it was time for a change? Serena  After I worked on the Olympics, as you know, because you were sort of interspersed intermittently in that world. And I just, I just knew that I didn't love it. You know, I think it was more sort of, I had come from a television background, it wasn't, I sort of just fell into events.  But I knew I could do it and I'd like, you know, there were elements that I liked. I liked dealing with people, but I just didn't like the constant franticness and my energy is not that way inclined, you know, for me, and I suppose that's why I was quite good with clients because I was always able to kind of calm them down. But the sort of mechanics of the events, it just didn't interest me as much, but I knew I could do it and I knew I was uber organised. So after the Olympics, that's when I had the, that was my sort of deciding factor. was like August, 2012, where I thought I needed to change something. I wanted to change something, but I actually didn't have the confidence to feel like I could do anything else. I could, I just felt very sort of blocked mentally on what the options were for me. And I thought, well, I've got loads of contacts in the industry, I can do it. I'll just keep going. And I'll just, I'll just start my own business and freelance and then get some clients. And so I went down that path. And luckily for me, during something like the Olympics, you meet a lot of people. And so, you know, that's when you and I got to work together.   Serena  But it was a bit of an emotional roller coaster at that for about six years. So it was not a decision that was made quickly. And it only got made six years later at the end of 2018. Quite unexpectedly, actually, I just thought this was going to be my life. I thought it was going to be a case of not enjoying my job, like working like crazy, finishing a project, stopping having, you know, a week or so's rest and then getting onto the next project. And I was doing a conference in Barcelona. I happened to be in the UK. It was a week out. It wasn't the most taxing event that I had done because I had a really good team. We were in a really good position and I left work about seven o'clock and I thought, I'm going to go, I'm going to go for a massage. And everyone's like ushering about the door, going, yes, enjoy, enjoy sort of, we're all excited for anyone who gets to leave the office before nine. and, I went for this massage and it was a bit, it was a bit of a weird massage in terms of she didn't clearly know how to mess up. And, I ended up walking to Waterloo station and I just blanked out my, my whole, my whole world became very small, I lost my eyesight temporarily.   And even though I didn't think it at the time, I was having a panic attack and I leant against this wall, which happens to be part of a fire station bar. And I just, I just really focused on, I remember my world getting small and focusing on my breathing. And I bet when I came, when I came to, when my, my eyesight came back, it probably was only, you know, a minute, but it felt like an eternity. I thought I can't actually go into the station. I just can't go into that station. And I called a friend and they picked me up and I stayed on their couch and the following day I got up early, back to normal, no problem. But something had changed inside of me. And so when we finished the job in Barcelona, the client asked if I could go to San Francisco to talk about the next event. And I just, without hesitation. It like my whole, was from a cellular level. I just said no. And I knew at that point I needed to shut down my business. I had no idea what I was gonna do, but something needed to change. Amy Wow.  because you're just in that event's world as well. is, it's one to the next. It's go, go, go. And it is, high energy, high intensity. There's excitement with it. And you're quite prepared to like just work all of the hours, because also there's a deadline with a very real live deadline that stuff has to get happened for. What was the hardest part about retraining and starting completely fresh in a new field? Serena Decision-making.  2019 for me was a really great year from April. Why I say from March, purely because from saying no in the December in Barcelona and then just being in a space of indecision was the worst heart because even though I had told myself, you know, don't, don't worry, you know, you're, you're, good, you can kind of do three to six months where you're just going to take time to do what you want to do. I didn't actually know what I wanted to do. I didn't, I didn't even know how to have free time. Because it felt very aimless.    So for me, I just had to think about the things that I had control over, which was getting up in the morning, I didn't want to lie in bed all day. I made sure I got up, made my bed, and went for a walk. And it's funny enough, as these walks continued, that I started to listen to podcasts on, happened to be a live coach, not that I was looking for a live coach, I just typed in, know, career change, because I really wasn't in the sort of, I'd read a lot of self help books, but I hadn't really ventured into sort of the coaching world at all. I started listening to this woman and this woman came from corporate and she was running a life coaching business and everything that she started to speak about just started to make sense to me. I'm a forward thinker. She was talking about things, you know, in the future and not in the past. And it mechanically worked well with my brain.   And it changed so much for me very, very quickly. And I thought, my God, I've been in indecision really for six years. And yes, it's taken this moment at Waterloo to make me take action. Actually, it's these conversations that I'm listening to on the podcast that are helping me, letting me know, I'm not odd, we are going through this, you know, there's so many changes that can happen and are possible. And yeah, I really, I remember feeling energised and alive, thinking there's new possibilities, because so much of my limiting beliefs ran around the fact that you shouldn't change jobs. know, my age, you exactly, you know, but also, you know, the people you have good contacts.    You're making good money, all of those things are popping into your head. And, you know, I even thought, well, who gets new friends at this age, who has new hobbies at this age, which sounds daft, but that's really that was my mindset. So I reprioritized everything in my life that year. And I signed up to train with her, this woman for a year to become a life coach.   And I put the education up there. put my career down at the bottom of the pile. And I decided that I was going to leave London. I was going to find new friends and I was going to find a hobby. And that's what I did. I went onto Facebook groups near where I was living outside of London. And I said, you know, does anyone want to have a cup of tea with me?   I started that way. And then I got introduced to other people in different groups. you know, before I knew it, I had, I was able to have plans almost every night of the week. And then I started to salsa dance. And you know, that was terrifying walking in there on your own, with very little confidence. And, you know, then they say, pick a partner. Oh, yeah, no idea who's gonna come my way and I can't dance. So. yeah, it was really confidence building and starting, you know, getting back into education again. I loved it. It was great. Amy Wow. How did you navigate the identity shift from being that event's professional to coach? Serena  That's a really good question. I let go of the events pretty quickly because I was ready. I was really, really ready. I was happy to adopt the coach identity, but not as quickly. It's, you know, I came from a corporate world and I, you know,   I had surrounded myself with people who were in that headspace of the corporate nine to five, or let's say nine to eight world. And, you know, the rat race and all of those, all of those things that they wouldn't. We'd seen people who had left our industry and gone and done something a little bit more holistic. And it just, there was a stigma attached to it. And I also didn't have any, any presence online at all. So that mindset shift, so even though I was, I definitely had progressed forward, that new identity actually took a couple of years for me to really lean into and say, yeah, this is exactly what I'm doing. And I know it can help you. That was a great moment to be able to kind of just lean into what I was doing. So I was happy to let the events go, but to adopt this new identity did take a good couple of years. Amy What do you think are the myths that people have about starting over again with a career or life choices? Serena  I feel like there's a lot of shouldn't. I shouldn't do this. It's irresponsible. There's a lot of what ifs that come into play. So I feel like it's that. I think it's very various levels of that. It's okay for others. There's a support system for others. People will justify other people's independence or success to make themselves feel better and feel safe. you know, and that, you know, there can be a stigma to someone giving something a go. So I think there's a lot of what other people will think attached to that too. I speak initially for myself, and I speak further from conversations I've had with clients and people who have changed direction quite significantly in their lives at some point. Amy What do you think are some of the lessons you've learned about making these bold changes in your life? Because you've not only, as you said, you changed your job, but you changed where you were living. were upgrading, shall I say, circles of friends. What do you think you've learned about yourself along this path of bold changes Serena I can start again anytime. Amy  I think- I love that. Serena I think that's the thing, you know, if all else, if anything, it all collapsed around me today, and I had to go and live somewhere else, I can do it. I feel like I built up that confidence in 2019. And that mindset to know that, you know, change is completely possible. And it can be possible at any age, you just need to manage your mind.  And that is the key thing because it's all very well working with the inertia of something new and exciting. But the continuation of that is, it is hard. And in order to work towards something different, whether it's a dream or whether it is, you know, things have collapsed around you and you've got to start again, you have to first and foremost, consistently work on your mindset. Amy Absolutely and definitely I could do with doing that more. I think I tell you this many times on my WhatsApp and voice notes. Now you are more specifically an aliveness coach. What does it mean to you to feel alive? Serena It feels authentic.  I think that's not just for someone who comes from a corporate background to not be fluffy. I chose really lovely fluffy titles to call myself, but I, you know, I don't say it without a lot of intention. I call myself an aliveness coach to stand out, but to stand out in a way that really means something to myself and the people that I'm reaching out to. I've really focused on apathy and I do understand levels of apathy that I think a lot of people are either conscious of and don't want to do anything about or unconscious of and find frustration in not understanding why they're not reaching their potential.   And I don't mean that potential in financial success. I just mean life potential. So I really love, I love apathy. I love talking about it. And I love the transition into, you know, aliveness because aliveness doesn't mean that life is great all the time because it isn't. Aliveness is, you know, about living into something with intention and wanting to wake up in the morning, knowing that it might be a really hard day and you've got hard conversations to have, but actually there's a bigger picture, there's purpose and there's self-worth and self-confidence. And that's what it means to me is, you know, we don't need to have a perfect life, but we do need to understand that in order to live a full life, there needs to be purpose and joy. So that's why aliveness is so important to me. Amy And you did an excellent keynote earlier in the year, Living with Apathy. And it resonated, it struck a chord, you know, what you were highlighting in that talk as well was really inspiring. I definitely don't know if you've got it publicly available, Oh, good. Yeah, I'll include that link. thought I'll go into it now, but we'll digress. Serena  I do, Amy  Talk a little bit about some of the patterns you see in the work that you do with clients who are stuck or at crossroads. What patterns do you see that they have? Serena Fixed mindset. The thing that I find the most is, and it can be with anyone, I'm not exempting myself from that, you know, as much as I have worked on my own mindset, there'll be times where I have to check myself, if I'm going to a talk, for example, and I feel I know the subject, I have to check in with myself and go, let's just be a beginner here. And, know, you might just learn something. And I, and I, I really try hard to do that. It doesn't always work, but I do try hard. And I think when you haven't done a lot of personal development, you feel life is just what it is. And, know, you think this is it. What I sort of refer to as cul-de-sac thoughts. These are the thoughts that get you nowhere. These are the thoughts that you can literally just go around and back and forth into this cul-de-sac. And if you have freeway, highway, motorway thinking, you know, that allows you endless journeys. So the sort of cul-de-sac thoughts keep you stagnant. And we do it without even thinking about it, even a phrase like, don't know, because we always think of phrases like I can't, which is a simple one, but a phrase like I don't know, is also, you know, a stunting thought. It's a, these, in not What seemed like innocuous thoughts, I should be doing this are the ones that hinder us daily. And we all have them. And it's just, I'm more aware. It doesn't mean that I don't have unconscious thoughts that hinder me too. It's just, it's a constant practice to get your mindset into a space that allows you to have more sort of motorway thinking. But yeah, that's what I come across the most.   Amy Yeah. Is there a particular book or podcast that you're inspired by recently?   Serena I was thinking about that earlier. Amy, you're in the book club, But I always I always like to go back to is the big leap by Gay Hendrix, which is, you know, your upper limiting beliefs. It's, it's, you know, it's, if you speak to coaches, you know, either people, you know, most coaches know it. Some, some coaches have read it. But it's a very, it's not a particularly big book, but it's a very inspiring book. And it's a thought provoker about a lot of it is about upper limiting beliefs. And no matter how advanced you get, whether it's in business or life, personal development, you will always have an upper limiting belief. And to understand what that is, it's always gonna be crucial to kind of further better yourself or further go to the next level and   Those are the ones that that book has, and that phrase of upper-limiting belief really stays with me constantly.   Amy  Let's talk a little bit about Fly, the community that you've been building. What sparked that idea to build Fly?   Serena I feel very much like I'm on a mission to help liberate people in mental isolation, specifically of societal constructed thinking. I know that's a bit of a mouthful, but it's the best way that I can explain it. So all the shoulds and I should be here by now and I should do this for this person, all of that it's not about being kind or compassionate or anything like that. It's about coming out of mental isolation so that you are living the life that you are meant to live. So pulling together a community of coaches from all different modalities from the spectrum.   just expands and for them to be able to better their service through community, through further education, through industry discussion. Yeah. Cast the net wider to help more people out of mental isolation in whatever modality, you know, is right for them. Yeah. So I work on, you know, I work on your brain and you know, I educate you about sort of how the brain works.   And some people that really resonate with them. Other people, it's about hypnosis, you know, others, it's about, you know, tapping, there's just so many others, it's about different types of therapy. So to be able to create that community of coaches who, by the way, spend a lot of time helping others. And, you know, we find that, you know, as business owners, especially online, it's quite an isolating world. So to be able to bring community to the coaching industry and enrich that coach's life through what I call like a business family of coaches can only better serve them that better then serves their clients.   Amy Yeah, because as you touch on then, I can imagine, you know, as a solo, you know, you are in this really solo doing, as said, the coaching clients one on one, it's that one on one work. And then it can be equally lonely and isolating at the same time. Yeah. And you're almost taking on all of everybody else's problems and energetically absorbing that. So why is your outlet, which would be a community like Fly?   Serena Yeah, we all need community. And, you know, sometimes we don't feel like we're talking to our people. And that could be, you know, our partners, you know, we can love them, and we can still do stuff with them. Working on a business is really personal. And when you know, I know that I get energised by being in like minded company, especially when it comes to doesn't mean that I don't disagree with people, but to have a mindset in the same, you know, working in the same direction as others, I get energised from it. So bringing that community together, specifically, where we've all got different talents brings together better collaboration, better, better inspiration, an opportunity to feel safe in an environment to test out ideas, to again, you know, build a richer service. And I think, you know, that's, that's what will make it less isolating. the long run.   Amy  And even in some of our communications, you know, we highlight we are more connected than ever before by digital, but then also more lonely, perhaps, and isolated than ever before.  I am now going to ask you three questions on the spot from our Really Good Conversations packs of cards. Question number one. What is one of your pet hates? Serena Arrogance. you know it all. You know, you're talking to somebody and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that. I know that. Someone who really has an inability to listen and to learn. Amy Question number two, what are your parents' personalities like?   Goodness. I mean, my dad, what is his personality like? Well, he's loud and he's brash. And he's full of laughter, to be fair. Yeah, he's a very, very focused go-getter type individual and, you know, like a bulldog. Amy I should get him on the podcast because he is actually originally, he's Australia and built a life outside of Australia, etc. I mean, we could start a whole other episode about your dads life.  Serena And my mother is so knowledgeable and quietly knowledgeable. Almost that generation of you know, it almost excuses me for being so talented. Mum is modest, but so intelligent. Yeah, she's just a really good source of knowledge and so kind. so she's, she's one punch, you know, tolerance. Amy I've obviously known you for a number of years and I don't think I've ever met your parents in person. don't think I'd love to because they sound like such a hoot, the stories I've heard.  And question number three, if you came with a warning label, what would it say? Serena God. Maybe I should ask you that question. What would it say? Amy You're probably thinking, what am I prepared to say on a recording? Yikes! How much do I want to give away? I think don't underestimate.. I think that's what it is. underestimate. Amy  And the listeners can fill in their imagination.  The third question that I like to ask all of our guests is if you could ask a person dead or alive a question, who would it be and what would you ask them? Serena  Right. The person that came to my mind when I saw this initially, this is a tough one. It is. Because I think back in my 20s, I would have had loads of people who had died. I tell you, when I thought of this person, I went onto his Instagram. So I have a real respect for someone in the States called Marcus Lemonis.  Marcus Lemonis had a television program called The Prophet, not because he's a successful businessman, and not because he has a television program called the profit, which is very much like, the apprentice, but far more hands on someone comes to the, someone comes to him, for, mentorship, and investment and all of that. And he works with them to help build their businesses. But what I love about him is the way that he manages confrontation is exceptional. And so if I got to meet him, I think it would just be like one of those genie questions. Can I have three more? Can I have three more questions? I would say, can we go out for dinner? Yeah. So I can pick your brain. I think that that's who I would ask someone alive. And Marcus Lemonis would be it because I just find his story really interesting and I love the way that he handles very difficult situations. Amy  Thank you so much for everything you have shared today, Serena. It's always a joy to chat to you. Where can our listeners find out more about you? Serena you can go to my website, which is serenadod.com or check me out on Instagram. I am serendodd and from there you can find all the other aspects of what I do.  Amy Go down the digital rabbit hole. Perfect. I will include all of those links in the notes as well. But yeah, I've loved our conversation. Thank you. Serena I've loved it too, thanks Amy.   Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests. And if really good conversations are your thing, hit subscribe and join us next time for more business journeys, insights and banter.

"Words can change lives" In this episode of the Really Good Conversations podcast, Amy speaks with Steve York; a former police negotiator, tactical commander, and now corporate risk advisor and negotiation coach. Steve's career has taken him from life-or-death hostage situations to high-stakes corporate boardrooms. In this conversation he shares what these intense moments have taught him about how people behave under pressure, how power works in a room, and how to influence outcomes through calm, presence and insight - not force. They explore the role of ego, emotion, and self-interest in negotiation, and why understanding what drives people is key to finding resolution. Steve also shares how body language, silence, and listening can all shift the dynamic in your favour. Key Topics Discussed:  What prompted Steve to train in hostage negotiations  Why self-interest sits at the heart of all negotiation How ego and emotion can derail conversations The power of silence and body language Why "win-win" outcomes are often a myth What hostage situations reveal about everyday human behaviour Practical tactics for handling high-stakes or high-pressure conversations   Whether you're negotiating at work, managing conflict at home, or just trying to communicate more effectively, the principles Steve outlines are widely applicable - and surprisingly simple.   Find out more about Stev York  Website: https://www.steveyork.com.au/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-york-64785a237/?originalSubdomain=au   Episode Transcript:  We touch on gun violence and suicide in this episode, so this is a trigger warning for listeners. Amy Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Steve York, a former police negotiator, tactical commander and corporate risk advisor. Steve spent over 20 years in New South Wales police force, leading hundreds of high-stake negotiations and helping reshape how dangerous situations are approached. Since leaving the force, he's worked across Europe and Australia in corporate security, risk management and negotiation coaching.  Welcome to the podcast, Steve. Steve Thank you very much. It's good to be here. Amy  I am keen to dive into your world, which I just feel that those listening and myself would have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in the police force, in high state negotiations. It's so far removed from our normal day to day life. So firstly, can you take us back over 20 years ago and tell us what was the catalyst that made you train to be a negotiator when you were in the police force? Steve Well, it's interesting. I was in the tactical team carrying a sawn off shotgun and wearing the black gear in the balaclava. And we went to an incident looking for a person that had killed a police officer. And we were going to a few places to try and find him. We had a warrant and he was lawful. We went in and into this house and I turned to the first door and I pointed my shotgun to the general part of the room. And for whatever reason, the person who was lying in bed reached down and grabbed something that was about, I don't know, probably about 45cm long. And my initial thoughts were that it was a gun. And as I brought my gun up, my partner came in through the door and turned and did the same thing as I was going to do. And I saw my partner going for his gun as I recognised it was an umbrella that he was picking up. All I could get out was no. And he changed his, what he was doing. And we went into a different mode, you know, of basically getting the person down. Wow. And it was about that point that I realised that this was pretty dangerous work, you know, someone could get killed and it could be me. And I thought to myself, there's got to be better ways to do this. And at the same time, I did find a couple of guys that were thinking about how to do it better. They were working from some work that had been done in the FBI and in the New York City police. And so I joined them and helped develop protocols for first response to major incidents like that and change it from armed aggressive response to surround and negotiate. there's all police were telling me other people that they argued it for year, for every year, that we'd lose evidence and you know, people wouldn't have the same respect and all that sort of stuff. B ut I remember the first day we used it, it was on the, we wanted a simultaneous raid on, I think it was 12 houses, what about 11? And so we had people set up in the room in the headquarters and basically we sent police out, surrounded the houses and we called each of the house out through the front door using negotiators. Wow. And it worked. Everyone came out. Did they, did we lose evidence? We probably did. Because I've had more time to move things around. They put drugs down the toilet, that sort of thing. But for every action like that, there's a forensic reaction. We can test the water in the sewer pipes and all sorts of stuff. We can do all that to prove that substances were there. So there's other ways to do it, but not as quick and not as cheap. Amy It's fascinating because even that first example when you had that moment in that bedroom, you you were in such a high pressure, need to react instantly. And then yet a gun could have gone off in that scenario, either with the person in the room or yourself or your colleague. And then you've got a completely different situation on your hand to deal with. And you often think when you do, you know, as a novice member of the public and you hear the stories and someone has been shot immediately, you're like, "Well, they can't speak now and tell you what's going on." There's an element you think, well, if you want to find out what they're doing. Steve  Yeah, and the thing is it had happened. Yeah. Only recently before police had shot a bloke by the name of Gundy and it was a matter of false identification. God. And that was a real watershed and it sort of helped what we were doing in the background about changing the policy. And we eventually did change the policy and it was done in the national police guidelines for high risk situations. But since the Lynch siege, basically I'd say that we've gone back to what we used to do. Amy I was going to ask if you think where we are now today, obviously your career was over 20 years and then you've left the force quite some time ago now. Yes, I was going to ask if it's then continued in that negotiation direction, but no, we've gone back to the heavy-handed approach. Steve Well, see people, particularly politicians, like to see things happening and things happening in a manner that the public can understand. And waiting and talking isn't good for them. They want to see action. And so they always get nervous and want to hurry us up and all that sort of stuff. And of course, it's not always the best thing in relation to the incident. And I think that's where we're at right now that the patients from the politicians is very low. Amy Wow, well, we could talk about this for quite some time. This is really fascinating, as I said, as novices on the streets have no idea about what goes on behind the scenes. But I wanted to talk to you a bit about the reality of you've moved more into the corporate space now. But as you have negotiated with armed criminals and corporate executives, what do you see that those environments have in common? Steve Well, it's all about what the individual is aiming for. It's about self-interest. What's their self-interest in the matter? And invariably it comes down to power, money, position, influence. Now, about who you're dealing with. It's about you can't talk a criminal who has a hostage in relation to where is he going to be in a month's time because the reason you're talking there is because there's a preordained has to go to jail, right? And I think that's a harder negotiation. You negotiate that someone's gonna go from here to jail and that's the best it can be. In a corporate setting, usually there's self-interest. Usually it's about bonus or something like that. Power, influence, all that sort of thing. But there's a million, there's a billion alternatives to resolve it. But people don't take the time to resolve it because they go on past results or past incidents or past, you know, this is what's happened in them in in this situation before. And people tend to go to, you know, what works. I mean, that's really good. What has worked in the past is a good benchmark. It's about what situationally is better for this person. and has been in the past. So in other words, you'd do a lot of creative thinking to try and get through. But the bottom line, it's about speaking between people to achieve a goal. Right? And I say to all my students, first of all, go to self-interest. What is in it for them? Why are they doing it? What's the background? Because some criminals only do it so they can get a better stature in jail. They hold up to the police for a longer period of time they come back to jail more famous than they were. Conversely if they fold early they'll be seen as weak and they'll get eaten back in jail. Amy How interesting.  What a different world. And how much do you see emotion and ego showing up in negotiations?   Steve Yeah, all the time. And sometimes it's on the negotiator side. All of us, I'll include myself in the old team of negotiators, but we all had our egos. I mean, it's about doing the job properly and doing it so people would respect what you've done and admire what you've done. I think the funny thing I kept on reminding my team was that we don't get paid anymore. There's no money in it for us other than overtime sometimes. And that's very little. So what else is there to work for? So it's gotta be around those things of ego and the way you look at yourself and the way that you operate within a team, the way that senior officers would look at you in respect to your skills, those sort of things for future work. It is about self-interest. And so I'm doing it for self-interest. Here I am talking to someone who's gonna commit suicide, say, and you're in the rain and you're freezing and you're hungry and you're talking to this person who you know through your schools and your training that at some point maybe two or three hours they're going to come back and you get be able to go help them but you can't make it faster. Amy Yeah, in that moment you're like, I'm cold, I'm hungry, I just want to get home, can you just get down now? Steve  But you've got to keep going. And you've got to keep going in the methodology and the practical ways that we deal with those things and ignore all those other environmental constraints. Amy Obviously people who are in that particular example, know, it may be in a position of suicide, you know, that is in a really delicate frame of mind. Steve Yeah, right. And you've got to recognise in them that they're in a crisis situation. They're not themselves. They've been driven by whatever could be drugs, alcohol, could be family, could be so many things, you know, and I've heard them all, I think, but you've got to let them tell you. And so even that takes time and that takes you got to slow it down and for whole lot of reasons. And one of them is The more you slow it down, the more they have a chance. The body has a chance to re-stabilise and to, you know, lower temperatures, lower heartbeat, lower brain activity, and you bring it into a more normal talking arrangement. But to do that, the negotiators got to monitor themselves and they've got to control themselves. They've got to speak slower and lower than the other person. They've got to keep their actions slow. and that all those things have to operate on this side to get the response out of that side. Amy  When one's in this situation of negotiation, how can you assess who really has the power or influence in a negotiation? Steve It's around equalising the power as much as you can. Nothing's ever equal, but equalising as much as you can. A person who takes a hostage. The hostage is the point of power at that point. That's where the power is held. You do this or otherwise I'll kill the hostage, right? The way that they're dealing with trying to get the behaviours from someone else is through the power of having control of the hostage. Take away the hostage. If they say, I'm going to kill myself. Well, they've got still a human at a hostage and everything else still applies. So it's not very often that you're not dealing with someone threatening someone implied or explicit. And it could be themselves. Other than that, you get things like product contaminations, you know, like That sort of threat against companies and so forth, extortion. And the power is, I'm going to do something if you don't do something. I'm going to poison the product on the shelf if you don't do something. And that's sort of, that's still against somebody, but unknown. We don't know who's going to pick up the product and drink it or read it. But it's still using that threat as power. Amy When you enter a room yourself, what are you scanning for within the first 30 seconds? Steve  So I did this, I do this especially in, well I did do it in lecturing. I was able to walk into a room and pick who the troublemakers are gonna be within seven seconds. Sometimes I was really surprised they weren't the person. They were just extroverted or just were a bit left afield. But I reckon 90 % of time I was right. Amy Wow. Would you verbalise that or just a mental note? Steve  You sort of would look and think, right, OK It's a natural note, but I did start doing things to those people almost immediately. was like task them with things, you know, can you help us get this or can you do that? So, in other words, try and bring them in as being part of the process. But you really know they're trouble when they just go, no, I'm not doing it. So, you know, right, this is going to be trouble. Amy I feel like you're needed in probably classrooms with kids around the world. When you said you scanned for the troublemaker, I suddenly thought, oh, that'd be me at school. But it wasn't, anything, all it was was my friends and I chatting, chit chatting, you know. Well, this is what I was going to get to, actually, when you're saying, you know, I am thinking, if you're a listener, do you feel you are taking in what people saying?  When you're giving the example of those chatterbox around the room, it would be interesting to think, are they retaining any other information that anyone else they're talking to is actually saying? Steve I think individuals would just depend. I know that I've got good retention. That's one thing I have got as a good memory. And I do remember things that other people don't. And is it because I'm listening and I'm not generating things that you sort of when you generate something, even you're trying to ask a question, are you missing things as you go through that thought process? I don't know. But I have talked, as I teach my students, say, the one thing you've got to do is build relationships as a negotiator. that building relationships is great training for negotiating. Because you ask someone, like for example, and I do this all the time, So I know the barista, I know who serves me, I know the restaurant. I know the people in the restaurant. Why? Because I've taken an effort to learn about them. And so I don't get a discount on my coffee. But as I walk down the road, if they see me, that coffee is waiting for me. And that's because we had a relationship. And so good negotiators, I find, have relationships with all those types of people. Very often junior people, very often you know, if you look at it subordinate to the people, but a strong relationship nonetheless. And that's because of the putting in time and investing in people. And I do a lot of that. Amy I'd love to get your insights on body language as well as a topic and how do you see that body language and presence play a part in negotiation? Steve Well, they're a key component, to be absolutely honest. I don't believe, mean, people do believe that if you hold your hand across your mouth, you're hiding something. If you're holding your chin, you're actually listening. There's all these sort of signals, but they say 70 % of communication is body language. And I would say it's at least that. And you can tell. because we really take signals from people, whether it's right to go down that street or whether it's, you know, you're on the right track or, you know, people going, crossing their hands saying it's not the right thing. There's international symbols basically that get across a message. You don't have to have the language. You just have the signal. And also there's things like dress. So, you know, if you walked in a room and everyone was dressed in tuxedos, you would assume it's a formal occasion, which requires different behaviour. But if you walked in the room and there was a band playing and everyone was dressed up in, you know, whatever, different behaviours can happen. And it's like seeing something like having the ability to see the person you're negotiating with and they keep looking over the left shoulder. Amy  Yeah, things that you think are obvious. Steve It's that you're going to say, we have to worry about what's over his left shoulder. Is someone else telling you what to say? So there's all those things happen. so body language is absolutely important. And I like a good meter away from the other person. And I've been to functions where, especially in central Europe actually, where people come out really close to you and start speaking to you. And basically they walk me around the room because I just keep taking a step back. They take a step forward and then it takes my concentration away. Good words, right? Or close it, like, in your personal... So they call that like it's in the danger zone because that's in the attack zone and this is all about the old reptile brain at the top of your spine that deals with danger. Someone working or operating in that area, your old brain is saying, you know, this is really dangerous. They could grab us by the throat. Amy  And do you think for you personally being in the police force even more so anyone right up in your face is even more uncomfortable? I think I'm just more sensitive to it. Yeah, gosh, yeah, you wouldn't think of that. Steve Yeah, and you think about things like a person gets on the bus in Oxford Street, Sydney. That's 9am and they walk down and they sit next to you, even though there's a couple of other seats around. You go, you know, it's a bit awkward. Yeah. Amy I've got to admit, I have got off buses and trains and the underground in London when I've just thought somebody's got on and I just thought, for whatever reason, it just made me feel really uncomfortable. And then you start to think about, you know, the things that could, you know, the mind goes into overdrive of things that could happen. So you just think I'm just going to get off would be the best. Steve  But if you got on that bus at 12 o'clock at night and someone walked down and sat next to you, it's a completely different level of heightened awareness. And I suggest you would certainly get off the bus or make a complaint. Amy Yeah, you're on the phone often on the phone to my husband, like, I'm here, I'm here, stay awake, are on the phone? But this sort of does actually lead me to how you have did keep calm or perhaps still keep calm and focused when you are in these high-stake life or death situations. You know, as we've been chatting and what you've been sharing with us, you know, unless, yes, you are in the forces, this isn't what normal people everyday people are facing with you have been some real high pressure situations. So how does one stay calm in that situation? Steve Look, it's very, you're trained for it, but it's still very, very tough and it takes a lot of self-control and a lot of concentration and, you know, working as part of a team to be able to lean on people when you're in, you're the focus, lean on people to assist and so forth. But it is, it is a skill that all the negotiators had to learn. And they all responded in different ways. One of the good negotiators, she often was having a foot up on the desk and the phone in the hands of leaning back in the chair And it looks like she was absolutely relaxed, but she was wound tighter than a watch You know, she was she was really stressed, but you wouldn't have picked it. It's just the training that that really Gets to do with it and we we trained in scenario based training. So we used to set up Scenarios that were well when I wrote them that the negotiators used to say the real event was easier than the scenario. thank God. You write it harder so that people are getting a taste of what it's like for your adrenaline, all the chemicals, again, from the amygdala going to the brain and to other places and saying, you know, your heart's got to pump faster because we're going in a battle and, you know, all those sort of things going on, which is you can't control. It's like you think about surgeons going in for surgery. Steve  They've got to be able to control all their emotions to be able to do what they do effectively because going in and saying, know, oh, this blood is terrible. You know, can't operate when there's so much, you know, it just just can't happen. Right. And airline pilots, I mean, there's a lot of a lot of vocations that are exactly the same. Just got to deal with the emotions. Amy A lot of people listening here maybe you know can't quite relate to being in these sorts of situations. So if you had to teach negotiation to a 10 year old, what would you tell them to focus on first? Steve That's a big question. the first thing, would focus on listening and listening for clues and trying to map out the negotiation and where you're starting and where do you want it to end. And then being able to map it in progress about how you're doing and what could be done better. But for a 10-year-old, would be about, for sure, would be about listening. Amy I think lot of 10 year olds could do with that and even adults as well. what are some of the common mistakes you see leaders make in negotiations at work? Steve  Look, I think a lot of leaders forget where they've come from. And I think the negotiation is more about, you you shall do. It's more about using power, positional power, and not really understanding personal power. And you can look at people, you you look at past prime minister and say, has Paul Keating still got power, you know, is he still listened to? And even though he's not a prime minister, he's certainly still got power. still listen to him. You you might say the same thing about John Howard. Would you say the same thing, you know, about some other prime ministers? When they lose power, they lose everything because all they had was positional power. And they were talking from, you know, being prime minister or president or whatever. And they'd forgotten about the fact that they'd come through a process with a cohort and they forgot about it. I they were just talking from positional power. Amy That's an interesting insight that, you know, positional power and personal power. That's really interesting. And how can people become better negotiators in their daily lives? So if we think whether it's in meetings or parenting, marriages or obviously salary negotiations as well, that's often a big one for people. Steve Yeah, the salary negotiations is quite a technical sort of negotiation. What can we do to improve? It's going to be around practicing getting to know people. And when you meet someone new, think about it. Think about the questions you would ask if you need to write it down. And you get the more you start asking people and understanding what people do, the broader that that your knowledge becomes as well. I ask people lots of times, what do do when you're not at work? And you get a different answer than you say, do you do? People, especially men, define themselves by their job. I'm a senior sergeant in the police, blah, blah, blah, you know? No one understands what a senior sergeant is really, okay. Well, it must be more than a sergeant, but what is it, you know? Amy  There's often the phrase I hear, you who are you without your job title? Steve  Yeah, exactly. if it you, would say, and tell me if I didn't do this, I would say, you know, you got kids, you mean run around by kids, you know, what do they do? They, yeah, we I'm up at four o'clock every morning because we're training to go to the Olympics, you know. That's quite interesting, right? Yeah. You say, poor thing. Amy  It's funny you mention kids because I do feel that we've got a three and a half year old terrorist that lives in our house. So what would be your tips for me negotiating with a small tiny human terrorist? Steve Unfortunately, I'm going to sort of break people's spirits when I tell you this, I've got a daughter who's a far better negotiator than me. We should have got her on as well to give her side of this. And the famous one is I was driving home and I was late driving picked up from school. She must have been about five or six. And she said, you better stop and get bread. I go, no, no, I'm running late. Gotta go. No, no, dad. You got to stop and get some bread. Mom will be cranky if you don't stop and get bread. Good idea. Okay. Well, I stopped and she said, when you get out, can I have an ice cream? Steve Now see that was a beautiful negotiation, right? Because she committed me to an act before she sort of led me into what was really her self interest. But she combined it with someone else's self interest. And how can you argue that, right? You can say, no, you tricked me. But how can a internationally recognised negotiator say that you tricked me, right? Exactly. That just can't happen. A five year old and an ice cream. So in the end I knew that in the progress of the negotiation I could end it very quickly or that negotiation would go on for another 12 hours. Amy Yes, and I think that's over our short years of parenting so far. My husband Alex just says never negotiate with terrorists. Do you think there is always a win-win situation? Steve Never, it's utopian. you know, I think that it may be win-win at the second you make the deal, but when you walk away, you find out something and you go, hang on a minute, that affects what I've just done. And that's always happens. So I think it's possible to get to win-win for a split second, but after that, the power shifts, you know. Now, did the person, other person know? about the situation before they were in a negotiation. Many times, yes. And they just held it in the back of their mind. Time changes everything because you get more information. And it's like you buy a dress online, you bring it home, you think it's wonderful. Everyone says that's wonderful. And it was $10, blah, blah, said, oh, that's a great deal. And you take it down, have coffee with the girlfriends, and they say, I've seen that dress. Someone was wearing it such a touch, you know, and I saw it in the shop for five dollars on special. So how do you feel about the dress now? So it's about when did you when you take the time to measure it? So when it unwrapped it? Yeah, it was fantastic. Right. So that the negotiation was good. It was a proposal. I accepted. I paid. I did this, did that and got the dress four hours later. It's unacceptable. How do I pack it up and send it back? And it's because the more information and you took into account other people's feelings, other people's viewpoints. And so this is the problem with win-win negotiation is that shift through time. Amy  And how do you know when to walk away from something if you are in it? And this probably more might be in business and life negotiations rather than a life or death situation. Steve The police can't walk away, right? So that's number one. You know, I've been in situations where I knew that it was going to end badly, still negotiated and, you know, people kill themselves in front of me. You've got to be able to deal with that outcome of a negotiation, right? But in the corporate world, you buy this dress and it's online for 100 bucks. You say, well, will I enter into the negotiation or not? Online is very restricted, but I suspect that online is going to change. I know my daughter bargained, which is different to negotiation, right? Bargaining, know, bargain in Bali for something. She bargained it down from like 80 baht to 50 baht or something like that. And then she finally said, okay, that was fine. And then she handed 100 baht over to pay for the change. Yeah. You know, it's all about. And then what did they react? they were dirty, they patted her on the head and said, a, you know, so you go, hmm, they won't be taken by her again, right? Amy I think if you're going to be in that market situation, you have to give them the exact amount of money. If you barter them down, if you've got them to like the 50, you have to give them a 50. I don't know if I would have the goal to give them the higher amount and then expect change. Steve  That's right. But people do that stuff. So is that a good negotiation? No. I call it bargaining because there's no personality in it. There's no relationship. It's single cycle negotiation. that, you know, just bartering for, know, I'll give you this. No, I'll take this. If you started adding things in, look, if I buy two other items. Can I get that for 50? That's starting to negotiate. What you're starting to do is you're adding other, or it be service, it might be other products, but you're adding to what was offered. But the trick is to be able to leave the negotiation happy to come back the next day. That's the key. If you're not happy to come back the next day, well, Amy You know you've maybe shafted someone. Steve Yeah, and what's the next white person going to be dealt with? know, it's so there's all these aspects to it. I mean, it's a fascinating subject because everyone does it all the time. Everyone thinks they do it well to an extent that they forget some of the basics. That's why learning negotiation is sort of like forgetting everything you learned and start again because of these aspects and it's around personal relationships. Amy Yeah. What have all your years in negotiation taught you about people? Steve No one's the same,  I know that. You may think that they're similar, but you know, everyone's different. Everyone's got different motivations and things you've got absolutely no time for or no weight. Other people, it's their life. So that weighting is really got to be understood. And it's fascinating what people do. Not in their normal job. I'm constantly amazed at how people deal with their time how some conduct themselves. Amy Gosh, well, that is fascinating, Steve. We could talk at length on so many topics. mean, you were full of stories, I imagine. The amount of experiences and situations that you have been involved in is honestly, know, worlds away from what I could imagine. So thank you for everything you've shared. And I'm going to ask you on the spot. So I'll put you in a high-stake pressure situation. I'm going to ask you... three of our questions from our really good conversations hack. So question number one, if you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? It's a choice, like personal, what would I like to be? Yeah, I'd like to read minds. Anything however you wanna add. Steve So I know what you're going to do because I've read your mind. And so I can do things proactively. Fascinating. That would have been very useful back in your police career, I imagine. Question number two. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Steve  Well, think that one of the things is words can change lives. People dish out words and they put no value on them really, but you don't know what the impact is on other people. And so where you think might be funny, someone's taken it as a slight or, you know, taken seriously and you could change their lives. Conversely, you know, someone at the right time, give them some good advice. Same thing. Amy That is fantastic. Thank you for that. And question number three, if you came with a warning label, what would it say? Steve Can it be grumpy? hahahaha Amy Brilliant, is fantastic. And the final question I like to ask, all I guess, is if you could ask somebody, dead or alive, a question, who would it be and what would you ask them? Steve Hmm that are alive. Well, there's just so many questions, but I think it would be around You the end of the Second World War about the negotiations between the Allies in respect to How they were going to carve up Europe into the future and say, you know, what was the criteria? You know, what was the the basis of some of those decisions? Because it it really changed, you know history till now Amy I've never even thought of that as well. Well, thank you so much for everything you've shared today, Steve. Where can people find out more about you, connect with you, and I'll include various links and such in the show notes. Steve Yep, so steveyork.com.au is the website.  Amy Thank you so much for your time today. Steve Thanks very much. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, hit subscribe and join us next time for more business journeys, insights and banter.  

Kate Toon is an award-winning entrepreneur, author and digital marketing expert. But in 2024, after building a thriving online business, she did something unexpected; she bought a struggling bookshop in her beachside town of Umina Beach. In this honest and entertaining conversation, Kate shares how burnout, curiosity, and a craving for real-world connection led her to make a bold pivot from online courses and passive income to running a bricks-and-mortar bookshop.  We talk about the risks, the realities, and the rewards of stepping into something completely different. Kate also opens up about the early days of motherhood and business, how much pressure we put on ourselves to "do it all", and why her book Six Figures in School Hours is really about letting go of guilt and embracing what's realistic.   Kate's journey from the UK to Australia as a backpacker Starting her first business when she was 5 months pregnant  Why her book 'Six Figures in School Hours' is really a book about working parents having forgiveness, not hustle The bold (and slightly mad) decision to buy a struggling bookshop The real numbers behind digital business vs bricks-and-mortar retail How motherhood reshaped Kate's relationship with work, identity, and ambition The importance of doing things that bring joy, even if they don't "scale" Why reinvention doesn't need a 5-year plan; just a willingness to take the next step   Whether you're a business owner craving a change, a parent trying to balance it all, or just someone who loves a good reinvention story; this episode is full of wisdom, warmth, and plenty of laughs along the way.   For more information on Kate Toon:  https://www.katetoon.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/katetoon/ The Umina Beach Book Nook: https://uminabeachbooknook.com.au/   Episode Transcript:  Amy  Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today, I am joined by Kate Toon, award-winning entrepreneur, author, mentor, speaker, and digital marketing expert. In 2024, she added bookshop owner to her portfolio after purchasing a struggling bookshop in her hometown, the Umina Beach Book Nook.  Welcome to the podcast, Kate. Kate  I am very excited to be here. I'm just going to warn the audience that both of us are Northern. As this podcast goes on, we will get more Northern. Subtitles can be provided. Ha! Amy Well, actually, I've got to say that when I do put any audio into the likes of chat GPT, it picks me up as Welsh. It can't understand me. Kate  Yeah, well, that just shows AI has a long way to go. Amy Definitely. Well, you touched on that. You are a fellow Brit and we are chatting here in Australia. So first up, tell us a little bit about how you have ended up in Australia. Kate I was a backpacker, so I came out,I was supposed to be in Thailand, but my travel partner after a week fell in love with a Thai boy called Bang, great name, and off they went to Bang.  And I came to Australia and I ran out of money after about two weeks and I got a job at Ogilvy as the head of digital production, which sounded very fancy, I wasn't qualified for it. And they eventually sponsored me, I went back to the UK and then came back here just as the Olympic Games were happening, 1999, with a partner that I put in a box and brought with me, and then we had our son, and I've been here ever since. Amy Wow, fantastic. I love that and it's impressive to get a role like that wandering in as a backpacker. Kate They soon regretted it. It's the only job where I've been demoted as the word rather than promoted. So people came in above and above me because I was like 25. You know, I started the job and all I had was one Portman's skirt and a pair of flip flops, which I had to, you know, wash each day and bring back in.  I didn't know what I was doing, you know, but the thing is, when you come from England and you at that era, we were so far ahead in terms of digital marketing that I seemed dead clever and they quickly realised I wasn't. Amy That's brilliant. You actually developed and started your first business in 2008 before the arrival of your son. So take us back to those early years and how you started that business journey. Kate Well, yeah, I was kind of contracting for different ad agencies at that point, sort of as a senior producer, general manager, hating it, absolutely hating it. And I had wanted to get pregnant for a while and we were told that we couldn't get pregnant. So I'd kind of given up on that. And I thought, my God, I'm going to have to be a career woman and I hate my career. So this is brilliant. And then fantastically, I got pregnant. And that enabled me to leave my job because I didn't want to do the long hours, the advertising demands and have a human, especially since I wanted that human.  So I gave up my job when I was about five months pregnant and I had no idea how to run a business. I'd been in the corporate world all my life.  And I just started out as kind of a do-anything person. So I was building people's websites. I was making logos, but I didn't know how to use Photoshop. So I did them in PowerPoint. Built some very bad WordPress websites and slowly just moved more and more into copywriting. And then from copywriting into SEO copywriting and Google writing, which was really innovative back then, 100 years ago. And that was it, I started just as a freelancer.  So when then my son was born and those first two or three years were absolutely miserable and then carried on from there. Amy fantastic. You've developed multiple revenue streams since then and you've got a number of books, some of them titled Six Figures in School Hours and Six Figures Whilst You Sleep. Tell us how have you managed it all with being a mother and developing these businesses? Kate To be honest, not very well. The Six Figures in School Hours is the book I wish I had had when I was trying to do it. And it's not necessarily about becoming a super being and finding all these efficiencies to do things faster and better and writing social media posts while you're breastfeeding. It's about forgiveness. It's about mom guilt. It's about making the most of the time that you have and being realistic about the time you have.but also realising the mantra from the book is the world will wait. You know, I felt such a sense of urgency when I had my son when he was two or three that I needed to keep going. I was going to lose my place before going to get ahead of me. And really nothing effective happened until he went to school. And now he's 16 and I'm still here doing stuff and I've got many years left. And if I'd have done everything five years ago, I'd have nothing left to do. So it's like the world will wait, be patient. You will get there but it's going to take you a bit longer than somebody who can work 40 hours a week. And that's okay, right? So it's really, that book is a book about forgiveness, which I slowly learned, but I wish I'd learned it a lot earlier, you know. Amy   Yeah, and it feels so relatable to where I am right now, because my little one's three and a half. Yeah. And I did actually, as I said to you before, when we chatted, have listened to the audio book of that, that book, because it is in those early years, you're looking for the nuggets, the golds, the how am going to do all of this, because you're trying to do and be everything. Kate But also it's an identity thing. When you become a mum, it can be all consuming and you're like, yeah, but I still want to be me and I still want to do my things. And therefore I need to push harder because I've lost something by becoming a mum. It's a weird way that we're judged as being mothers. It's the best thing in the world, but also it's the worst thing in the world. So you're pushing yourself even harder rather than saying, I chose to make a human. I can take a little break. It's all going to be OK. It feels like it's all going to slip away. But it isn't. It isn't at all. If people wanted you before you had a baby, people will want you again and probably more because you'll have more experience, more empathy, more understanding. You're a better person often, you know, because you've had more trials and tribulations and so you'll be more desirable post-child, you know. Amy Yeah, I absolutely love what you've got on your current website, like the timeline of your journey and your businesses. And it is just a great little snapshot. I think actually you've probably covered a bit of advice points then, but what key pieces of advice would you give to others, whether it's mums trying to juggle life and business? Kate I think the main thing is to stop kidding yourself.  You know, like you think, well, I'm dropping him off at daycare at eight and I'm picking him up at two or whatever it may be, or I'm dropping them off at school and I'm picking him up. And you're like, wait, great. I've got six hours. You haven't got six hours. By the time you've driven home, gone to Coles, put the stuff in the fridge, set the washing machine, go and add a wee, scrolls, do scrolls for half an hour, done a little bit of work. It's time to pick them up again. know, realistically, I worked out and it was all worked out in the book that most Kate  Mums or parents I should say because it's not just mums. You have a kid or kids in preschool or school have about 15 productive hours a week. Productive billable money making hours. So if you want to make six grand a month from your business you're charging $100 an hour. It's simple maths but the problem is we think we've got 20 and we don't then hit 20 and we're not making enough. We're like we must be doing something wrong. We're doing something. Why aren't I making as much money as I should? Because you're never going to. You were never going to, you didn't have the time in the first place. And also that something's got to give, that time has to come from somewhere and it's either going to come from your relationship, from your child, from your health and wellbeing. So the better thing to do is accept you've got 15 hours a week and just accept that, you know, someone else might have 30. Great. What they achieve in one week, you achieve in two. Still all right, isn't it? Still fine.   Amy Yeah, gosh, well, that is refreshing to hear, you know, you are actually taking the weight off me. Because I think, you know, I started agency world as well, many moons ago, and I think we are sort of slightly trained to it's sort of, you know, it's deadlines, it's timelines, it's being reactive constantly, never leaving a client waiting, you know, just sort of you're on the go, go, go. Yeah. And certainly work was not, you know, nine to five. And then I feel like I mean, the era of you always trying to re-untrain all of that to be now what is actually realistic.   Kate I mean, it's an excellent training ground. You know, I think one of my key reasons for success was that brutal agency training land where every hour had to be accounted for, do your time sheets, go, go, go. It was a hideous environment to work with and I'm very glad that I'm out of it, but it was excellent skills to bring into the arena. But it is a different arena with different combatants and different weapons and we can't treat it the same. One of the things people say to me a lot is,   I really want to make the income I made when I had a real job. That's my goal, right? To match that income. And I'm like, why? Why is that your goal? You don't have to commute. You don't have to wear a bra. You don't have to put your tuna casserole in the microwave and talk to Gavin. You don't have to have a boss. You don't have to have board meetings. Surely that takes at least 20 grand, 30 grand off your income goals because you are at home. You're your own boss. You can do what you want. That is worth some money. So again, setting these unrealistic goals.   No one cares as well. No one's judging me. Everyone thinks what you're doing now is impressive. Most people can't even run their own business. They give up and they do something else. I think we're trying to, we had a laugh at the beginning when he said, how shall I introduce you? And he had written this about all my things. And I said, yes, Kate, who's an overachiever and desperately wants to impress everybody. And no one cares. And you get to my age, I'm 51, even I don't care now. I did when I was younger, but I don't even care now. Yeah, I think we just put an awful lot of pressure on ourselves. Amy Do you think that thinking, that confidence, you know, comes with age and time? Kate Comes with age. I was an absolute idiot in my early 30s and definitely in my 20s, know, emotionally unstable, making daft decisions, you know, worrying a lot, a lot of pressure. And I still am all those things, but I'm slightly, slightly better, slightly more measured. I'm able to sort of take a breath. You know, I always think that you can, some people react after they've done something daft, two weeks later, like, oh, that was dumb. Some people react like two days later. Some people catch themselves in the middle of the storm. Some people catch themselves just before the storm starts and some people see the storm coming. And I'm at the point now where I see the storm coming. I'm like, Aye, aye, you're about to make a big mistake because you're getting all het up and your chest is all pumping and you haven't slept well enough. This is not a day to be making big decisions, you know? So it takes a while. But I used to be the person who two months later would go, that was daft. So it's taken me a long time to pull myself all the way back. Amy Yeah, that's a brilliant insight. And what have been some of the biggest turning points on your business journey?  Kate Well, I think one was when I went to a conference.  I'm not a big conference person. And it was my first conference I went to and it's called Pro Blogger and a guy called Darren Rouse ran it. And it was really big back in the day. And they said, we are looking for people to be speakers on stage, just a 10 minute slot. And I was not happy with myself at that point. I was overweight, didn't like the way I looked. I hadn't really done any public speaking, but I put myself forward and I got picked. So I got to stand on stage in front of 500 people.   And I just started to put together this kind of rough SEO course. I'd done it in person a couple of times. And the reaction to me on stage was so positive that I went home and that week made a little mini challenge. And within a week of putting that out there, I had 600 people on that challenge. And that was the start of my whole passive income. So that was like 2014, 2015. So that one little moment of bravery and thank you Darren Rouse, led to so much for me. Amy Wow. And sometimes it isn't until you just jump in the deep end. And like even when we, you know, we're launching the cards, we did a trade show in January 23 in London, with a week's notice. And I said to Alex, this is a fail fast situation. If we go to that trade show, and we could get to speak to people, we get some feedback, then we know if really good conversations has legs or not. Kate  I think this is it. And I think this is why some entrepreneurs and I'm doing air fingers succeed because the meaning of entrepreneur is business owner who takes a risk. And I think a lot of people are scared. They don't want to look a fool. They don't want to be a failure. They don't want to be laughed at. You've got to be willing to look a fool. Because in the end, you will have the last laugh, you know, while everyone else is sitting there going, it's never going to work. It's never going to work. You're at the trade show doing the thing. Whether you sell a million packs of the cards or 10, it's still an amazing experience because you did it. know, so you've got to not be on the sidelines. You've got to be in the arena, like we just said, fighting the tigers. Amy I think you are no stranger to change and being adaptable. We've touched on that from your personal professional life. But a recent change for you has been the purchase of this bookshop. So tell us how this has come about, because as we said, you've been very much in a digital space for a while. So how have you ended up buying a bookshop? Kate Again, not a considered experience, not even people like, oh, that's a dream. And I'm like, it wasn't my dream. I love books. I love that. But running and I've always liked the idea of having a little shop at a market or a little store, but it's not like I've been burning to buy a bookshop and Googling bookshops in any way. literally had closed down a part of my business because I was stressed out and bored and a bit burned out with it. And it was two days after I completely finished. It took me months because I had to, you know,   People had memberships, I had to refund people. was a big, know, extricating yourself from an ongoing concern is hard, right? It was two days after and I was having a walk down the beach with my coffee. It was like 10 o'clock and I was on the beach. And I got an email from the bookshop saying, we're closing in a week unless anyone can save us. And so I first went in and offered to invest. So glad I didn't do that. And then she was like, no, no, I'm done. And I said, okay, how much is it? And it was, it wasn't cheap, but it wasn't ridiculous. You know, it was doable. Kate  And so I thought, I'll regret, you only regret what you don't do. I'll give it a pop. If it fails, it fails. And believe me, it's been pretty hard. But I'm a year and a half in now and it's starting to turn around, but it's been really hard, you know? And I'm old and I'm tired and I'm not very used to dealing with humans day to day in person. So it's been super challenging. Amy Yeah, I mean, it does sound like a bit of a serendipitous moment that you said you were closing the other part of the business. Kate One door closes and another opens. Amy Literally. But you did say people thought you were a bit mad. What did give you the confidence to persevere and think, no, I'm going to do. Kate  Yeah Well, I rang my accountant and I tried to take the rational steps, you know, I looked at the accounts but the accounts were awful and basically showed that it was not making any money, hence the woman had had to sell it, you know. I looked at the Google reviews, they were terrible. The shop, to me, looked kind of in a state of sort of disrepair, like it had been beautiful but it started to get that little shabbiness to it. And so it was like, this is a terrible, terrible idea. I rang my accountant and he said, it's a terrible idea, you will never make any money, you should absolutely do it. And at that point, I also had a financial advisor and I said, look, I feel like it's my midlife crisis. This is going to cost me about as much as two Harley Davidson motorbikes. And if I was a 52 year old man, 51 year old man, that's what I would do. But instead I'm going to do this. And I guess I do, it's not arrogance, but I do have an innate confidence that everything will kind of be okay. Like even if it fails and I lose money and I shut it in a year. It was still, that's still okay. Still did it. Still had a go. I enjoyed it. I do enjoy it an awful lot, you know, so that's important. Amy I think it is just another chapter. always say like the Kate Chapter, like, Another chapter. Look at you. Amy  It's part of the tapestry of life, all these interesting and different things. if you didn't do it, you'd probably forever walk... Well, you'd either see it knocked down. Kate Yeah, you'd wonder and I think I was, you know, it was serendipitous. I was a little bit over the online space. I did feel like I wanted a community. My son is 15 - 16. He's getting to that age where he doesn't want to spend time with me. You know, I'm not his best mate anymore. Oh, don't say that. Don't talk to me about it. I will actually cry. Don't be nice. He's lovely. He's a wonderful son. But of course he wants his independence. And I needed a little something something. Whether it was in a global economic crisis in the middle of nowhere, besides the toilet, with financial issues. I'm not sure that was the right somethings something, but it was the something I chose. I could have had an affair, that would have been a slightly more economical approach but I couldn't bother. Amy  But how has that transition been from digital space, where you can measure ROI, see spend out, see spend, see everything quite clearly, I guess, in digital worlds. You know, how has it been to transition that into bricks and mortar and also the reality of this physical costs before you've even opened the door? Kate  Well, it's just a completely different business. So my, you know, my whole second book is about passive income and how to turn your skills into courses and memberships. And in there, I actually give all my financials, how much I earn in every launch, how much I spent on my profit margin. And the thing about digital is my profit margin was ridiculous. So on average business, 5 % is 10 % is good, 20 % is amazing. Mine was 55 % profit margins. That's after everything is done. That's ridiculous money. And also you're selling to a lot of people, you know? So much easier, much better, but there's only so much, I've launched my SEO course 31 times. I'm done. Do you know what mean? I just literally can't do it anymore. The shop is different. the retail is not much money in it. I will never make much beyond 10 % profit. Like, and that's okay. I'll pay my team, I'll pay my staff, might even pay myself. But I knew that going into it. But the difference is, yes, with online, you can view the cold data. But what you can't view is the warm faces. Now that sounds like a cheesy line that I wrote before I came on. But there is nothing like getting some new stock in and seeing someone come in and appreciate it to know that that stock's gonna go. Or someone come in and go, why have you bought that? And with digital, you're trying to have that. You're trying to A-B test and do you want it? I'm teasing you. Do you want this small version of it before I sell you a big version? And if you're trying to have that experience, but I get Maureen coming in saying, what the hell are they? And that's more powerful and easier to manage in a way. So the pros and cons. We all want that, don't we? A little bit. I'm not a massive people person. I am quite introverted. So I can't work in the shop every day. I really, really can't. It's quite a performance. I do get to wear outfits, which I'm quite excited about. After 10 years of sitting there with no bra on in my pyjamas, it's nice to go out. But there's only so much I can do.   Yeah, it is nice and I do feel really part of the community in a way that I never have. Amy Yeah, I was going to ask what have you seen the bookshop do for the community? Kate Well, I've really made that the conscious thing because I was actually before when I dropped that bit of the business, I was actually going to volunteer to work in an old people's home, which deals with people with dementia for two days a week. So II want to start giving something back. And then I bought the bookshop. And so the attitude with the bookshop is I'm giving something back. So we have free story time. We give books to the old people's home. We do three different book clubs. We have events at the shop, you know, like Friendships have been forged at the shop that have then gone further. I'm also trying to get the whole community going. So we tried to do Christmas in your minor last year. We had bands outside the shop and we tried to get people to do late night shopping. And it's hard because a lot of the other retail stores have been there for a while and they're slightly jaded. Here's me coming in all like a little happy Labrador and they're like, that won't work. And for the large part they were right, but I'm still going to be a happy Labrador. So yeah, just that's the point. Like I wanted to feel like really safe space, which I know sounds a bit wonky, but you know, down to like having our LGBTQI symbol, dogs are allowed in, the whole shop has a layout so you can get a wheelchair around it and a pram around it. Just trying to consider things like that. It makes it less than just trying to flog a book. Amy Yeah, and it becomes a real hub and a destination. We touched on, we're from the north of England and, that's where you had like the butchers, the fishmongers,   Kate That's what we know, isn't The proper high street. When I say high street here, people don't know what I'm talking about. It's called West Street, not high street. I'm like, no, no, no. It's the street in your town where there's the butchers, the newsagents, the sweetie shop, you know, and you go home after school and you, you know, like we remember that. And that's why I'm trying to recreate absolutely that kind of Northern English, honey town sort of thing. And that's why I hope I have created. People come in and say, so cozy, it's so cute.   Amy Yeah, that's brilliant. Because what do you think, you know, the modern day shopper is actually missing online? Like the reality is we are now in this space where everyone's buying everything online. They want it instantly. No one's prepared to wait for anything. And obviously, see even more so in the UK, like the M1 is just like huge warehouses. Like, unfortunately, that's now the British High Street is going to just become more of these warehouses. But for those listening, what would you say to encourage them of what they're missing when it comes to physical shops?   Kate Well, I think, you know, it's the same way that people still buy vinyl, even though there's no justification for it. Literally, there is no reason to buy a book from us. You can get it for half the price it came at. You can get it for the same price on Amazon, but tomorrow. And sometimes with us, you have to wait a week. So literally, we have no competitive advantage at all. All we have is someone comes to the shop, and this happens a lot. They're kind of wandering, because we've got kind of a good street appeal. They're wandering, like, God, I've not read a book in years. And we have like, we all go over and say, oh, you might like this and you might like this. And then we give them entryway books and easy books and we have a conversation and then they like that book and they're like, wow, if they pick that one for me, maybe this next one. But also just coming in and having a laugh. You know, sometimes people come in and just talk about their day and especially older people as well. But mums with small children, you know what it's like when you've got like a two, three year old, you're literally with an inanimate annoying blob that's putting their fingers in everything all day. And then the next day you have to do it all day again. So if you can go in somewhere and we've got a kids play area with some toys you can put your kid down for a few minutes and have a little chat and look at some books. Sometimes that's enough.  Amy Absolutely yes I definitely can resonate but how have you found being an author and an owner of a bookshop I mean are you separating yourself as well from what stock you're choosing you know how does that all work? Kate I'm not. I'm not separating myself. has to, you know, each bookshop is a representation of the person who owns it. It really is. It's a representation of the community. So,I know the guy who runs the Wallara Bookshop in Sydney and the types we went to a day where they show all the books coming out and the books that he was ticking, that he was going to order were not the books I was ticking, that I was going to order because my community is different. They don't want, you know, books on Bolivian architecture necessarily.   They want the latest cool Stephen King book or Patricia Woolf. So it is a reflection of me and it is a reflection of the community. In terms of what I've learned about the publishing industry, just that it's incredibly hard. They say in Australia to be a bestseller, need to 5,000 books, which is not that many. But then there's people like Trent Dalton who's sold 350,000 books. But not everyone's going to be Trent Dalton. Kate And what I think is the hardest thing to see is debut novelists and they have spent like three years writing this novel and sure we get it and we sell a few, but then after six months it's gone. And it'd be very hard for us to sell it again unless we've read it and loved it. And just the volume of books that come through the shop and maybe once in a while there's one that sticks and that does well. But the publishers try to create that, curate that experience, try to engineer that experience, but often it has nothing to do with the books that they say are going to be successful. It's just weird books that come up on Book Talk or just get a ground spot of popularity. But it's interesting and fascinating, a bit depressing, but also quite inspiring as well. Because when one of these new books comes out and it does do well, it's like, wow, we love that book too. And look, we're part of its success. And it's cool. Amy Yeah, that's fascinating. What prompted you to actually write books in the first place? You've done five or six books now? Kate I just want to be a writer. Really all of this arsing about with advertising and digital is just me waiting until I have enough confidence, experience and money in the bank that I can stop and write novels. So that's all I've ever wanted to do. My first book was a book of poetry. My second book was a kid's book. And then I wrote business books, which obviously essentially are a lead magnet and the profile builder. I have made money out of my last two because I've got a professional publisher. You know, I've got a real publisher who had them at the airport, you know, which is the ultimate thing.  But, you know, I'm doing another book which is coming out in March, the end of the trilogy, the Six Figure Trilogy. And I really, really do hope to write my novel. And, you know, my vision of myself as an old lady in a cardigan, working in the bookshop a few days a week and then spending the other days writing books, that would be my dream. Amy  Wow, but this bookshop purchase just feels like the real right time, was because you're now going to be immersed in all of these novels. You're going to be inspired more and more to build that confidence. Kate  But also maybe have a few contacts and I think I'll be able to know a few publishers. Maybe the door will be... Because the door is very closed, you know, it's very hard to get in and you do find there's a degree of nepotism or someone knows somebody and I don't know anybody, do you know what mean? So maybe it'll be easier for me, maybe it won't. Maybe when I actually sit down to write my novel I won't be a very good writer of novels and then I'll have a real rude awakening.  I guess this is kind of the theme of this whole show, we started off talking about like, you know, decisions and how you decide to do things and turning points, kind of just stumbling along and someone goes, do you want to do this? And I'm like, all right. And being vaguely yes and being willing to take risks as you trade show, things happen to people who do things. Things don't happen to people who do nothing, you know? Amy Many people think about taking a risk or think about change, but then they never take the leap. So what advice would you give someone who is standing at a bit of a crossroads or got some ideas? How would you encourage them to make the change?   Kate Look, I'm not going to be flipping here. It's easier at this stage of my life to make decisions when I have a little bit of financial wherewithal, money is important.  I'm in no way saying it isn't and security and we're Northern English, right? And I'm working class. So money and my attitude to money is very much don't be risky.  Don't get a credit card. Don't be splashy with your cash. Right? So it's mitigated risk..  You know, wouldn't I go out and order 70 grand worth of stock of a product that I haven't even tried in a trade show. No, do you know what I mean? But you take small little leaps over time and give yourself time as well. And instead of thinking what's the worst that could happen, I think it's really important to think what is the best that could happen. My attitude has always been if the worst comes to the worst, because I was a secretary in a VA and an EA for a long time, if the worst comes to the worst, even though it wasn't the worst, I quite enjoyed it, I could always go back and be a secretary. and I would have an okay income and I would be all right. I could go and get a job in Waitrose. sorry, we don't have Waitrose here.  I wouldn't get into Waitrose. I'm not posh enough.  I always thought well I could do that and I'd be okay, I'd be okay. And so knowing that you could got that to fall back on helped me in the early days. And now I have this sense of, I just look back and go you cope with that and you cope with that and you cope to that you're gonna be all right. Do you know what mean? It will all be all right. And that might sound like arrogance, but I think it's just lived experience. Amy Yeah. Oh, that's brilliant. Oh, well, thank you so much for everything you've shared so far.  I'm now going to put you on the spot and ask you a couple of questions from my Really Good Conversations pack  So question number one, what is one of your pet hates? Kate In business or just in life? Always. People being late. Really get some white tits. Yeah. Amy Any others? Because you said business or life. Kate No, it's really people being late, you know, and yet often I'm late. So that's really hypocritical and selfish. Amy Question number two, what is the most embarrassing thing you have ever done? Kate This is a long story, but I'll tell it quickly. I speak a lot and I had this week where I spoke at five or six different hotels and I was exhausted and delirious. And I went to bed and it was so hot. So rarely I took all my clothes off.  Like usually I keep my knickers on Amy, you know, just in case of spiders and stuff. Took all my clothes off, fell on the bed, fell asleep, woke up in the middle of the desperate for a wee, opened the door, went to the toilet and the door clunked behind me. And it wasn't the toilet door, it was the hotel door and I was in the corridor and it was 2am and had to eventually go down to reception completely naked and get them to let me back into my room.  The thing is, I'd love to say that was 10 years ago when I was an idiot. It was months ago. Amy Brilliant. Love it.  Kate But you know what as well? That is literally the stuff of nightmares. Other than all your teeth falling out or having to do your history exam again and you haven't revised. That is the worst nightmare, being naked in public. And you know what? It happened. It wasn't that bad. Yeah. It was alright. You know, you survived it. Amy  I'll have to compose myself for the next one. Question number three. If you came with a warning label, what would it say? Kate I was gonna say something about biting because I do bite people sometimes.  She looks nicer than she is maybe.  People think I'm really nice to have big eyes and I kind of have an open face. But I can be quite a cow sometimes or probably just she's tired don't talk to her. That would be another good one. Amy Brilliant. Fantastic. The last question that I love to ask all of our guests is if you could ask any person dead or alive a question, who would it be and what would you ask them? Kate I don't want to get emotional now, but it would probably be my dad who passed away this year. And, you know, no matter how many conversations we had, I would give anything to have one more chat with him, to go to the pub, eat some crisps and have a beer. I don't know what I'd ask him. I'd want to ask him something like, have I been a good daughter?  And he'd probably say, shut up. But I don't know. I'd like, I just miss being able to ask my dad advice because he was very Northern, very to the point that he was always on the nail, you know? So I think it would be my dad. Amy I love that. That's beautiful. Thank you.  And to wrap up, know, what's next for you and how can people find you and connect with you? What's on the horizon?   Kate On the Horizon is my next book and then, I'm kind of doing a complete rebrand.  So I'm going into my little cocoon over the next six months and I'm trying to shed basically what made me successful, SEO and copywriting. I'm trying to a degree, put them behind me because I'm kind of done with them now and I want to evolve into a new, more kind of generic, businessy, coachy, warm-y, I hate the word coach, but just not so literally, I'm going to teach you SEO, I'm going to teach you copy more. I'm going to teach you how to win customers and enjoy your business without relying on ads and without being a git, basically. I need to work on my USP, clearly. So I'm going to do that. And then the book comes out in March. And that will be a lot of fun. And then hopefully, write my real book, my novel. Amy  I'll include links in the show notes as well. But thank you so much for your time today. It's really been such a fun conversation and we could have chatted for hours longer, but I've been good at keeping us on time. Thanks so much. Bye bye. Kate Thanks Amy  Amy  Thanks for listening.  I hope you enjoyed the episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests. And if really good conversations are your thing, hit subscribe and join us next time for more business journeys, insights and banter.

How do you build a brand people remember and a network that actually leads to something meaningful? Originally from Russia, Oksana Koriakova moved to Australia with a suitcase and a six-month visa, knowing no one and speaking no English. 20 years later, she's built a thriving brand merchandise business, launched a successful speaking career, and become known in Sydney as the "networking queen." Oksana shares her story of reinvention, the key conversations that shaped her journey, and how she turned discomfort into confidence.  She shares her views on branding and what it really means beyond logos, and why consistency, emotion, and trust matter most. We discuss her keynote "How to Bring WOW to Your Marketing" and why thinking like a wedding planner could completely shift the way you approach your campaigns.  She also shares her top networking tips, including how to follow up well, how to spot when a connection could become a real relationship, and why quality always beats quantity. Key Outtakes: How one coffee in Moscow and a last-minute conversation at a farewell party changed Oksana's life Why branding is less about logos and more about how you make people feel The secret to WOW marketing; and why she wears a wedding dress during her keynote Oksana's golden rule for networking: victory loves preparation Why your customers will become your friends faster than your friends will become your customers The mantra that guides her: if everyone's doing it, that's your sign to do the opposite   Whether you're looking to grow your business, find your voice, or rethink how you connect with people this is an insightful episode.  For more info on Oksana  Connect with Oksana on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/oksanakoriakova Impero https://impero.com.au/ Episode Transcript:  Amy Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today, I'm joined by Oksana Koriakova, Marketing Maverick, speaker and founder of Impero. Originally from Russia, Oksana has spent more than 20 years in Australia, helping brands become more memorable and helping people show up more confidently in business. She's passionate about human connection, branding and marketing that actually makes people feel something. Welcome to the podcast Oksana! Oksana (01:05) Thank you, Amy. Thank you for the invitation. Amy (01:08) As I mentioned, you've been in Australia for over 20 years. Can you tell us a bit more about what brought you here from Russia? Was there a particular conversation or moment in time that prompted that move? Oksana (01:20) It's interesting how in life we have these sliding moments and we think this one conversation doesn't really matter, but life changes because of one conversation quite often, right? And I think a lot of people who are in Australia, they didn't have a plan to stay here and live here. And maybe even the same with you, Amy and your family. ⁓ And yes, I did have this conversation obviously where Russia became an open country after 1989 and the collapse of the communist systems that we were building. And this was an opportunity for the first time for us to travel.  My goal was to learn English and I didn't have a conversation and coffee with someone in Moscow and they suggest that you know it's going to be winter ⁓ why don't you just go for summer in Australia for six months and I thought yeah sounds like a good idea why don't I and this is how I arrived to Australia with one suitcase I didn't speak any English, you know, I didn't know anyone. yeah, this was my six months that one little conversation that changed the direction of my life, I guess.   Amy (02:53) Wow, that is amazing.  It takes real courage to obviously move countries to a country where you don't speak the language. When you came over back then, there wasn't the WhatsApp and the technology and communication tools that we have now. So I have a lot of admiration because that really would have been going completely the other side of the world with little connection and communication back home.   Oksana (03:19) Yeah, but it's forced you, like I always say, how do you shut up a talkative person? This is the only way to shut them up, to send them to a country where they don't speak the language, right? And it also gives you the opportunity to actually listen and absorb because you can't speak, right? And it's an interesting journey. It's an interesting journey. It is a challenging journey, but with everything in life, our growth and our wisdom comes from the challenges. If everything was nice and smooth and we never had any problems, we would have no challenges, we would just become lazy, unmotivated humans, I think.   Amy (04:07) Yeah, absolutely. And when you were first arriving in Australia, what helped build your confidence in those early years? So you've just mentioned that then that, you perhaps have to listen, you can't really talk to people, but that must have felt very isolating. So how did you overcome that? Oksana (04:23) I knew it's going to be hard and it was hard. I never say, oh my God, I was walking in the park because I came from a small city. It's under a million people and I almost knew everyone there. So not having a connection and we met and you know how important the human connection for me is. I was kind of like a fish out of water. But for me, because it was such a huge investment for me to be here financially and emotionally, I knew this was my project and I knew that ⁓ I just need to give myself time. And the six months of discomfort and struggle and crying and all the difficulties, I knew that it would get better. And it did get better, but we just have to, we don't want to sit in discomfort, right? Because it's the brain and the mind, they want to get out of the difficult situation. They want to find comfort.    But I guess I'm grateful for my discipline that I grew up with in the communist country. So we kind of have the gene of sacrificing and toughen it up, know, like life is tough. get a helmet ⁓ kind of scenario.   Amy (05:56) Oksana, take us back. How does one arrive in Australia and then you go into a life of brand merchandise? What was the top line journey when you got here? Oksana (06:08) So it was a six month visa. I went to school and then I was celebrating my Bon Voyage party and I was ready to leave. And then I met the girl again, one little conversation got me to Australia and one little conversation made me stay in Australia. She said, why are you leaving? Why didn't you apply for residency? I'm like, ⁓ and she said, and I can introduce you to someone who can help.   Again, who? She introduced me to immigration agent. And I thought, OK, sounds like a good idea. Why don't I? I know what's in Russia. I grew up in Russia. I finished school there in uni. And a year and a half later, I got my residency. And when I got the residency, because I'm unemployable, the only logical thing to do was to start the business.   So I started the Hamper company. Originally it was called Gifts on the Run. And I was on the run and there were a lot of gifts. And I loved it. I loved it.  I did a calligraphy course and the business became very successful, but grew so fast and took all my freedom away. And freedom is my number one value.  I did not want to have a great business and a lot of money and no freedom. So I rebranded and I started the Merch company because with Merch it's a different game. And this is how I got to, and now it's been 22 years since I launched Impero. And now I'm reinventing myself as well. Now I'm separating Impero from myself and I'm launching Oksana.  Oksana the speaker and mentor. It's kind of the next step in the evolution of business. Amy (08:19) That's a fantastic journey. That is brilliant to hear.  I genuinely find people's journeys interesting. And I think even more so when moving countries or speaking in other languages, et cetera, you are always interested to know what those stepping stones have been along the way. And we'll talk a little bit about branding and business because that is a huge part of your world and has been a part of your journey. And obviously with Impero, you have the merchandise branding business.   So for you, what does branding mean beyond just logos and colour palettes in your world?   Oksana (08:53) Brand for me, it's trust and it's consistency that we deliver. ⁓ and this is what helps people that you serve to make a decision. If you're a small business owner, you start with yourself, you are the brand. It doesn't matter what business you do in everything you say, everything you do, every email you send, every meeting you have. Every time you show up, you're building, you're building the brand. put in the tick in their mind. Can I trust them? Are they consistent? Do I like them? Are we on the same page? And this is, this is so then when they are ready to buy, they go, I go to this person because they have a brand. And if you don't have consistency, like you take people on the roller coaster ride, it's. It's not a good journey, I think. And I also focus on the feeling, you know, the famous saying, people forget what you did, people forget what you said, but people never forget how you make them feel. So if we focus, before anything, we say, when people come to me and when they leave, how do I want them to feel? And if you just focus on that, then... Oksana (10:22) You create your processes and your customer experience around that, because it doesn't matter if you're serving coffee or you're building the website or you do the car wash. It's irrelevant, right? People come to people and come back to people because they make them feel a certain way. Brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room.   Amy (10:49) Absolutely. What do you think people get wrong or they overlook when they come to building their brand? Oksana (10:56) They have an idea and for me, I'm not sure if you're familiar with Gallup's strength profile, my number one skill is strategic. So even when I sell merchandise, I never started with a product. We've got 20,000 products, the product is irrelevant. I discovered design thinking, I think 15 years ago. It's a revolutionary approach where you don't create the product. You don't go and say, it's a great idea just start making it. You actually go and talk to the customer and you collect data and you see if this actual product has a place on the market. Because a lot of the time you fall in love with the product and you think great. And you go invest the money, build a website and create the product. And then suddenly you go, nobody buying it. And I will say, but why did you create it in the first place? Where was your research? It's also like, I understand a lot of people go to the business because we've been sold the concept of freedom and everyone should have a business. I don't agree with that. I think business is not for everyone. For some people, they're just best as employees. And this is, think, statistically... The data, they say, you have data, let's look at data. If you only have opinions, let's go with mine. And this is the reason I think statistically so many businesses fail in the first two years because they did not do the research. They did not test. They did not create the prototype. They did not talk to the customer. They just went and invested all the money, but you need sales, you know, before you do anything. Yeah. Who is the customer? You don't need money, you need customers. Amy (12:50) Absolutely. And it is, yes, certainly the rollercoaster having your own business. So I think we can definitely agree on that. You talk a lot about how to bring wow to your marketing. What does wow mean to you and what do you think is one small change a business owner could make to bring more wow in their brand if they're not already? Oksana (13:11) Wow, it's what makes people talk about you.  Because nobody talks about boring films. Nobody talks about boring parties that they went to. Nobody talks about boring branding. ⁓ And obviously, I think in 1970s, we had 500 messages, advertising messages coming at us every day. Now the number is, I think, 5,000. So if this is the amount, and we all can relate because we are all the customers at the same time of something else. And if you think about how many advertising campaigns, how many brands you see every day, how often, how many services you experience from, you know, buying the coffee in the morning to picking up your kids in the afternoon, enrolling them for childcare or school or making decisions about what to buy online. For your next party, how often that something happens that you go, my God, this was amazing. And you wanna go and tell your girlfriend and tell your friend and tell your husband and tell your neighbours, not often, this trigger of people wanna talk about, this is in my world, this is the wow.   Amy (14:36) Yeah, love it. And when you deliver that keynote talk, you wear a wedding dress, don't you? So where does the wedding dress come from for when you're presenting? Oksana (14:46) The topic of this keynote, it's how to bring wow to your marketing. And yes, I do dress as a bride and wear the whale and have the red flowers and enter the room with the wedding walls. I also love fun and I love humor. And I think we just get so serious in business. ⁓ I think David Ogilvy said, you cannot bore people into buying your product. I think if we just lighten up a bit and, you know, be more human and be more fun and be more approachable and write emails with a little bit of, you know, smiley, like how they, like when you write it, how are they going to make them feel? So the reason I dress up as a bride, because I compare marketing   It's like falling in love. It's only three stages.  So firstly, you need to know who, who is the audience, right? Like who are going to marry? who you're going to sell this service to.  Who is, who is the customer? Right. You start with who, because then when, know, what language do they speak? This would be helpful, right? If you're international, if you're international, you think, Our people don't speak English.    So you have to be very clear who the second step is when you know who, then you go, okay, how, how are we going to get them to go on a date with us? How are we to get them to notice us? How are we going to send the proposal? Where are we going to take them? All this little how. But the third, the third step is when we get engaged and we get married and we have this so much fun at the wedding and we invite all the guests and it was so fun. How are we going to keep it? How are we going to keep this relationship going? Because I deliver it in such a way that everyone can relate.  Everyone has been to the wedding. Everyone knows how it's so personalised. You know, you're not putting Facebook advertising, inviting people to come to your wedding because nobody will come, but you do a list.  So do you have a list in your business? How do you approach every guest differently? What do you do after, know, how even at the wedding, we think how we're to put them, them strategically, right? So all of, so I actually say to the audience, imagine if you're going to plan your next campaign and you don't look at it as your marketing campaign, you're going to look at it as I am planning the wedding. Everything changes when you do that. Amy (17:46) Absolutely. And I've got to say mine and Alex's wedding was at the start of a pandemic in Bali. So we definitely had a lot of curve balls thrown at us with that wedding. Oksana (17:58) Yes. And again, this is the learning of things does not always go as you plan. How adaptable are you? What are you going to, if you only need to cut the list from 150 people, who are the 20 people going to be? Same in business, right? Who is, if you just sit and go, who are the people that I should really look after? Because if you're never going to call your friends and you never put any effort into nurturing a relationship, you have no friends. Amy (18:27) Yeah. And to build on that there, moving into more relationships, nurturing, networking and connection is a big part of your world as well. And you've been crowned the networking queen here in Sydney and equally host events, but also run talks on winning the networking game. Have you always found it easy to connect with people? Oksana (18:49) Yeah, this is my superpower. I don't take credit. I got five planets in Libra. If you are familiar with astrology, you know it's very rare. And if you're not familiar, Libra, it's all about partnership. It's a partnership. So connecting, talking to strangers, ⁓ building community. If you invite ⁓ Libra to the party, the Libra response would be, who else can I invite? It's all about togetherness. This is kind of a lot of time, I just do what feels good. And then, and then only later I discover, ⁓ this is why it feels so good, because it's really my DNA. Right? So I, I encourage people, I know of business mentoring and marketing kind of advisory. You have to discover. What is your superpower, right? You don't, you don't, can't just go, because this person is doing this. I'm going to do that because for some introverts, it's not natural, but they have other talents, right? So find what's your talent and just put a dial it up on that or magnify it because then this is where the joy comes from. Because when I do this event, I'm like, I don't need to put it on. I just show up with joy and because it's so authentic, feel it. And this is where you can't fake your way to being authentic. Amy (20:29) But when you are out there, attending the events or doing the talks, you know, it does require a lot of energy and presence from yourself. Do you get tired of it all ever or find, you know, at the end of the day you've got that energy drain or... Oksana (20:45) Again, it's just, know, Libra, it's all about balance.  So I might have an event until three o'clock in the morning and by four o'clock I'm barefoot in the ocean, you know, swimming and doing yoga. Or I would, you know, switch off my phone for a few days and don't talk to anyone. I think it's even, even as an extrovert, it's for, you know, like for me, get energised being around people, discussing ideas being out there, it's, it's energises me, but still, you know, it's sometimes I said, I'm not even a good company for myself.  It's finding the balance and finding what works for you. And for some people, if you're introverted, maybe they recharge by being, you know, alone. Some people are charged by being out. Other people are charged by being in nature. Again, it's like,   I always say, and I apply it to marketing, find what works for you. It's not such a thing. ⁓ I have a magic wand. And if you only buy it, I can solve all your problems. And if somebody tried to sell you this magic wand, ⁓ I'll say, buy it, be aware.   Amy (22:02) Yeah. When it comes to the world of networking, what do you think makes a good networking experience for both sides? Oksana (22:12) Oh, victory loves preparation.  This is like a wedding. Why weddings are so amazing. How much preparation goes in, right? So if you organise an event, like when I organise, my list to do is very long. I pay attention to every details, right? I have a list of people who are coming. I, you know, I've got a flower organised. I make sure I talk to the chef. I don't leave anything to  chance, right? The venue picked very specific. I don't just go, let's just have it in the garage.  So then when you do that, the people who show up, they can actually see that. They can appreciate it. And they step up as well, you know, with the high tie, all the boards rise. Suddenly they put more effort and communication, right? Communication. In terms of arriving early or telling them to come early, communicate what the next step is. If you go into the event, maybe ask event organisers, look, I'm looking to meet this kind of people. Would you be able to introduce me? Because especially if you're shy and you can't just walk in the room and talk to anyone, maybe they can do the introduction.  Do the preparation and slowing down and be more strategic. It definitely will give you a better outcome than just showing up anywhere and hoping.  You might get lucky. But from my experience and I've done a lot of networking, like the first few years, I think I was at 400 events a year. I was there for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I joke, I used to go t the opening of an envelope. But nowadays I only go to the red carpet events, right? Yeah, but it's, you have to learn it, right? You have to experiment and you find, you have to find your tribe a lot of time, like energetically, some of the places you walk in and I left the vents because I walked in and energetically doesn't feel good. I don't stay, I just leave like, I don't want to be here.   Amy (24:38) How do you decipher what's a surface level networking chat versus what could become more of an actual friendship and connection?   Oksana (24:47) You know, you would know instantly. It's also, like with friends, you cannot ask people to be your friend. It's for me, it's a dance. Same with the customers. People say, but who am I, if I'm going to do LinkedIn reach out, but who do I, who do, who do I continue the conversation with? I would say, continue conversation with people who reply to you. Don't harass people.   You know, that and be persistent with people who are not interested. So so many. And another thing I say is that your customers will become your friends much faster than your friends become the customer. So you meet someone and you don't, you don't even like it when you meet someone, you don't even know about the business because statistically only 3% of people are ready to buy now.   So you're not selling anything for a long, long, long time. So it's all about building relationships. Do they like you? Do you have a lot in common? You talk, you know, this is a travel or you ski or you like yoga or you like human design. And then, I don't know, one of my friends, when we met before, before she even asked my name, she goes, my God, I love your purple mascara. What is it? And it was like instant.   She didn't ask me, what do you do? Like don't start the conversation. ⁓ so tell me what you do. Like this is the most boring question you can ask. If somebody asks, they can, here's my card, here's my LinkedIn. If you want to know what I do. And people say to me, what do you do? And my reply often is that I pay attention.   Right. And they go, this is interesting. Tell me more. Because like what conversation would you do? I'm an accountant. What do you want to do when somebody says to you, want to leave the room, right? You know, it's going to be boring 95 % of the time, you know, it's going to be boring conversation. And because everyone loves talking about what they do. It might be a long conversation and then you feel awkward because you don't know how to escape it.   Like don't make people want to escape, you know, like, but it takes time to create the emotional intelligence where you say it has to be the monologue. You can't just go. Somebody ask you a question and you just tell them the story from, you know, what's happened in your childhood and how you move the country and what you're doing now and what you, and you don't even see how is this person, you know,   How is this person feeling about all of these buckets of information that you just delivered or keep delivering because they simply ask you a question. What do you do? don't know which part you want to know? Where are you from? Oh, which one? What kind of question is that? What do you mean where I'm from? Country, company, position. Oh, all right. Suddenly you kind of break the pattern of cookie cutter question, cookie cutter answer. Boring.   Amy (28:17) I'm nodding along here and agree because ultimately, we launch conversation cards to make conversation more interesting, interesting and meaningful, whether it is with existing friends or families. And I think we saw in our own world and you still do see it, you'll catch up with friends or family and it is, how are you doing or how's your last week been and da-da-da. And it's like, ⁓ same old.   And that's the end of the conversation really. And it's not until you ask different questions, you start to then hear interesting or different stories.  If you could summarise, what would be some of the biggest networking mistakes you see people make?   Oksana (29:01) coming up to strangers and telling what they do and, know, pushing the cards without asking, right. ⁓ you know, then ask, say, look, I actually never give cards until people ask me. My cards are very expensive. So I don't want to give it to people. And, and I don't want to be, you know, they take a card and another mistake, don't chase the numbers, chase the quality.  Take less cards. And this is one of my tips that I teach. You have to be responsible. Don't think they got my card. So this is your car. You are the driver. Don't worry about the passengers. Don't worry about what they're doing. Yes, they all have your business cards. Don't worry about them. Just worry about you as a driver. Hi, Amy, lovely to meet you. Enjoy our conversation. I would love to stay in touch. Maybe we can do the Zoom coffee, la la la. And do reach out in the next 24 hours. Because if you don't, I can guarantee, if you email a week later, people would not know who you are.  So don't let them forget you. If you do it as soon as possible, like I do it, literally if I meet someone by the time I get home on the bus, I already emailed them all. It's if it's only three, five people, you can do it, right? You may even create a template saying, Hey, like it's not, I'm not saying, but make your, make it your priority. And then you go, okay, here's my cards, right? I I live in Amy (30:40) Ha ha! Oksana (30:54) So what does it mean? Look at them. What's the next step for this person? How can I set off value? Because it's the reason you took the card. Because if it's of no value, stay at home, don't go to the network, stop collecting cards and killing trees. This would be my boy. Amy (31:15) Okay, we're going to move into a couple of more general questions now, I guess. What has been the biggest challenge you faced in your business and how have you moved through it? Oksana (31:26) The biggest challenge when I started the business, China was only open for us. And then suddenly when it's open, every person now become an expert and they say, ⁓ I'm going to bring my own stuff from Alibaba. And people think they don't, they don't need experts. do. You need experts when you have a knee operation, you need experts when you do your dentistry, you need experts when you do anything, marketing included. And obviously COVID came and killed my business18 years in business. wake up and I have no business.  But I think Tony Robbins said, it's never lack of resources. It's a lack of resourcefulness. I just have to reinvent myself and guess what? I use direct mail and direct mail took me to, you know, becoming the finalist for Australia marketing Institute award with an entry. You got mail saying, If you want to cut through the noise and you want to reach someone, this is what marketing is. Keep the conversation going. And then mail, 100 % opening rate. Inbox is full, mailbox is empty. What a great opportunity to wow your customers and become memorable and to be creative and to have fun. Amy (32:31) Absolutely. Absolutely, that's a good one. If you've already gone on to my next question, is there a piece of advice or mantra that's guided you both in your life and business? Oksana (32:59) I don't comply, so I do. If everyone is doing something, this is the sign for me, I have to do it opposite. I need to be inspired. I need to create. I need to collaborate and create something that's meaningful, not just create it for the sake of it, that doesn't benefit. If Almonds can become milk, you can do anything. Amy (33:30) Yeah, I love that. Brilliant. Well, on that note, I'm going to ask you our questions from our pack of cards. Question number one. If money was no object, what one thing would you buy? Oksana (33:44) I would buy a little city.  The little city where not many people there and we could rebuild the city. Rebuild the city and give opportunities for people to come and rebuild it and create the community. of the, maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm going to be a mayor of the happy town. Amy (34:13) Love it! Oksana (34:14) I'll buy a little city. the way. Yes. You know someone who sells the city? Yeah. Give them my number. Amy (34:17) That is cool. ⁓ Question number two, always a favourite, is if you came with a warning label, what would it say? Oksana (34:31) Put your seatbelt on. It's gonna be a fun ride.   Amy (34:37) Fab. Love it. Question number three. What is the most proud moment of your life? Because I feel you've had quite a journey and a lot of experiences and a lot of different junctions.   Oksana (34:50) ⁓ The most proud, I think when I got the blue passport, when I got a passport, because it's just, this was a level of freedom because getting the Australian passport suddenly, you can actually go anywhere. And global is my favorite word. Like you don't need a visa. Like if you have a Russian passport, I think it's like two countries you can enter without the visa. For the rest you have to apply and wait and you know maybe you don't get it and it costs money. With an Australian passport you can go anywhere, right? Yeah.   Amy (35:31) And that is amazing. As someone who obviously, you I'm British, you often don't realise or acknowledge the differences that other nationalities, like you said, different restrictions and what freedom, you know, a lot of countries that you're, you know, for example, that I'm from, that you take for granted, really. Oksana (35:48) And another thing ⁓ I remember when I was at uni and my father's car was stolen. He was so upset and I didn't want him to be upset. And I said, don't worry dad, I'll buy you the new car. So I was at uni and it was summer holiday and I walked my ass off to make all the money to buy him a car. This was very good. Amy (36:17) Yeah, amazing achievement. That's beautiful. And the last question that I like to ask all of our guests is if you could ask any person dead or alive a question, who would it be and what would you ask them? Oksana (36:19) I would say I would ask Leonardo da Vinci because he's I love him and he's so multidimensional and so progressive. So the question I would ask him. ⁓ How did you learn to trust your ideas before the world could see the reality of that, right? Because he was so ahead of his time and everything that he created, how did he actually learn to trust and to drive it without giving up, before the world could even understand them, right? learning, studying the birds so she can create the plane like we're talking 500 years ago. Amy (37:34) It is, it's crazy to think about it. Oksana (37:36) How do you sell the idea and tell people we're going to have a plane where they never saw anything but a bird? How much of what he developed we still have? One person. Revolutionary. Definitely a revolutionary human being. Amy (37:57) Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for everything you've shared today, Oksana. Where can listeners connect with you or find out more about you? Oksana (38:06) If we are not connected on LinkedIn, it's a very slim chance, in case we are not connected on LinkedIn, do connect with me on LinkedIn. Amy (38:19) I feel like you're a LinkedIn brand ambassador. Oksana (38:21) Yes, yes. ⁓ I'm a volunteer for LinkedIn. I love it. If you don't use LinkedIn and you're in business, please use LinkedIn. Please follow me on Instagram. I am impero by Oksana and soon my Oksana brand will come alive. Yeah. Amy (38:39) Thank you so much for your time today Oksana, it's been great chatting to you. Oksana (38:45) Thank you.

What happens when you bring military discipline, strategic thinking and straight-talking honesty into the boardroom? In this episode, Amy chats with Marcus Dimbleby, a former Royal Air Force officer who now helps businesses make smarter decisions, faster. After 24 years in the military, Marcus transitioned into corporate coaching and consultancy, bringing with him a no-nonsense approach shaped by combat zones, critical thinking, and high-stakes leadership. We talk about Applied Critical Thinking, Red Team Thinking, and why most business strategies fail before they begin. Marcus shares what surprised him most when he left the military, how he helps leaders slow down to speed up, and why ineffective meetings are costing companies more than they realise. He also reflects on his recent move to Cyprus, how Mediterranean life reinforces his principles, and why mindset, clarity and adaptability matter more than ever.   Key Topics Discussed:  Marcus' journey from military to corporate life  Slow down to speed up: How clear thinking upfront leads to faster, better decisions later Why most business strategies fail before they begin Discipline starts with self: Military leadership is built on responsibility and looking after your team Mindset drives results: Prioritise ruthlessly and lead with adaptability to thrive in change.   It's a wide-ranging, insight-packed episode from someone who's seen leadership from every angle.   For more information on Marcus: LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcusdimbleby/ Effecitve Direction https://www.effectivedirection.com/   Episode Transcript:  Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast, Marcus Dimbleby. Marcus is a former Royal Air Force officer turned corporate coach, trainer, and consultant. After 20 years in the military, he now helps businesses make smarter decisions faster, bringing military precision and critical thinking to the boardroom. Welcome, Marcus. Marcus: Thank you, Amy. Wonderful to be here. I'm looking forward to a really good conversation. Amy: Me too. I love that we're connecting across the world. I'm sat in Sydney and you're in Cyprus. Marcus: Both northerners from the UK. I love that. Amy: Exactly! I really enjoy how this podcast brings me together with people based all over the place. Marcus: That's awesome. Amy: Before we dive into the topics for today, can you share a little more about your background and what led you to a career in the military? Marcus: Sure. I did 24 years in the military. I joined straight out of school. It all started when I was around eight or nine, going to air shows with my dad. We'd go to Church Fenton and Linton-on-Ouse in the north. I remember watching Vulcans and Phantoms roaring overhead, shaking the ground. I knew then I wanted to be part of that world. I joined the Air Cadets. There was no plan B. You had to be 17 and a half to join as an officer, so I finished my O Levels at 16, went to sixth form to wait it out, then left at 18. My mum asked, "What if you don't pass?" and I said, "There is no option." Luckily, it all worked out. Amy: Did you go on to fly those jets? Marcus: No. In the cadets, I had a flying scholarship and flew solo at 17. In testing, I scored 95% for pilot and 98% for fighter control. They offered me a place as a fighter controller. I still wanted to be a pilot, but I decided to go along and try. During a four-month holding stint, I was placed with 74 Squadron flying Phantoms. The pilots all said, "Don't do fighter control, be a pilot." I intended to fail the course and switch, but I ended up loving it. I think if I'd been a pilot, I might have made a mess of it. Fighter control turned out to be a great fit. Amy: That's fascinating. As your military career came to an end, what motivated you to move into the corporate world? How did your early experiences shape your consulting approach? Marcus: At 42, the options to stay weren't appealing. I was pensionable and young enough to try something new. I resigned without a plan. I looked at everything — from John Lewis to Virgin Airways — to really understand what was out there. Eventually, I met a senior risk officer at Morgan Stanley. He told me to get into consulting, that it would demilitarise me and broaden my view. I ended up joining Capgemini, intent on learning. I wanted to understand government, corporate, and commercial life — properly leaving the military, unlike many who stay in defence roles. Amy: What surprised you most about corporate life? Marcus: Honestly, how little people know what they're doing. I planned to observe quietly, but within two weeks I had to get involved. Many just wing it. There's a lack of structured training, which is the norm in the military. I quickly realised I wasn't the naive one. Amy: I had a similar feeling after uni. My sandwich course helped, but once in business, it's mostly shadowing and guessing. Marcus: That's common. Luckily, in our consultancy, the senior partner admired military people and trusted us. He gave us responsibility early on, which helped us grow fast. Amy: Your business, Effective Direction, is grounded in applied critical thinking. Can you explain what that means? Marcus: It's about thinking on purpose. People think all the time, but that doesn't mean they're thinking critically. We teach four core principles. First, slow down to think intentionally. Based on Dr Daniel Kahneman's work, system one is fast and intuitive, but error-prone. System two is logical and effortful. Engaging system two leads to better decisions. Second, challenge assumptions. We move too fast, so we accept assumptions without questioning. Most strategies are built on wishful thinking. When you dig in, they're shaky. Third, engage diverse perspectives. This is the real enabler of diversity and inclusion. It's no good having diversity if people aren't heard. This approach ensures all voices contribute. Finally, make decisions based on clarity, not comfort. People often rush decisions that feel safe but aren't well-informed. Slowing down leads to better long-term outcomes. Amy: That all sounds like common sense. Marcus: It is. I call it face-palm coaching. People know it, but they don't apply it. Everyone's too busy. Amy: Even meetings are often ineffective. People show up without an agenda or clear purpose. Marcus: Meetings are a scourge. They're badly run. People spend 30 to 65% of their time in meetings, and 90% of those are useless. Amy: I mentioned before that my neighbour said, "Indecision kills." He gets frustrated when we can't decide where to go for dinner. Marcus: Exactly. Not deciding is still a decision. Leaders are paid to make big calls but are often afraid. That fear blocks progress. We encourage leaders to unleash their people, involve them, and seek feedback. It's not about doing everything yourself. Amy: I've seen you talk about red teaming. What is that? Marcus: Red teaming is applying critical thinking to challenge a strategy, plan, or idea. It comes from the military. Red is the enemy, blue is friendly. We'd simulate what the enemy would do in response to our moves. In business, we do the same. We pull a plan apart, challenge every assumption, and then rebuild it with clarity. It's not to destroy the plan but to make it better. Without red teaming, a plan might have a 20% success rate. With it, 80% or more. Amy: You also co-authored the manual Big Things Fast. What can leaders learn from it? Marcus: It's a practical field guide based on real-world application. The first key principle is to focus on priority, not priorities. If you have ten, you have none. Next is to diagnose slowly to execute efficiently. Like Einstein said, "Spend most of the hour thinking about the problem." Slow down to speed up. The third is growth needs sceptics and idealists. You need constructive tension between realism and optimism. Lastly, mindset matters. People first, always. You get buy-in when people are involved, not just told what to do. Amy: What are the biggest blockers to change? Marcus: Two main things: status quo bias and ineffective leadership. People want to stick with what's familiar. Leaders often resist adapting because they got where they are using outdated behaviours. Until that changes, it's hard for organisations to evolve. Amy: Leaders are under a lot of pressure. How do you stay calm? Marcus: I slow down. I ask, is anyone getting shot? No. Then relax. I also use what I call helicopters and rabbit holes. I get everyone to pull up to 5,000 feet and look down. It gives perspective and reduces panic. Amy: How has your military background shaped your leadership style? Marcus: It taught me self-discipline. In the military, you have to be squared away because your actions affect the people beside you. Adaptability is crucial too. No plan survives contact with the enemy, so you need to adjust fast. And always put people first. Amy: Would you support compulsory national service? Marcus: Yes. In Cyprus they still do it, and it shapes the young adults positively. In the UK, I think it's too late now, but I'd love to see more support for cadet-style programmes that teach structure and community. Amy: You recently moved to Cyprus. What inspired that? Marcus: Travel was always part of our plan. My wife got long COVID, and her doctor advised moving sooner. Our daughter was up for it, so we relocated. It's helped reinforce our philosophy of slowing down to speed up. We still work globally, but life is more balanced here. Amy: What advice would you give to someone leaving the military or making a big shift? Marcus: Don't be afraid. The military can scare people into thinking they'll fail outside. Take your time, do your research, and don't jump at the first offer. Understand your worth. Veterans bring leadership, adaptability, and discipline. Once you're out, forget the rank — observe, learn, and then contribute. Amy: Final question before we go to the cards. What's one thing the military gets right about leadership that businesses often get wrong? Marcus: Training. Real, quality training. From day one in the military, you're trained for every step in your career. Most businesses skip this. One executive told me he'd had three weeks of leadership training in 35 years. It shows. Invest in real development. Amy: Let's do three questions from our Really Good Conversations pack. First: what's the most remote place you've been? Marcus: The Falkland Islands. I did two four-month stints, stationed on top of a mountain with radar equipment, accessible only by helicopter. Isolated, harsh weather, but full of camaraderie. Amy: I bet you miss it. Marcus: Can't wait to go back… Amy: Second question. What's the secret to a long and happy relationship? Marcus: Communication. Conversation leads to connection. My wife and I always make time to talk — about everything. You need to say the hard stuff before it boils over. Keep the communication open. Amy: Final card. If you came with a warning label, what would it be? Marcus: Highly infectious. In a good way. Energy, enthusiasm, zest for life. Amy: Love it. One last question from me. If you could ask anyone, dead or alive, one question, who would it be? Marcus: Socrates. I'd ask, "In a world full of noise and opinion, how would you help leaders recover the art of questioning to uncover truth and make wise decisions?" Amy: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Marcus. Where can listeners find you? Marcus: LinkedIn — just search Marcus Dimbleby. Our website is effectivedirection.com and you can download our field guide at bigthingsfast.com. Amy: Fantastic. I'll include all the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us. It really was a good conversation. Marcus: Thanks, Amy. A pleasure. Amy: Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, check out the show notes for more. And if Really Good Conversations are your thing, hit subscribe and join us next time for more business journeys, insights and banter.

How small, science-backed habits can help you boost energy, balance hormones and future-proof your health  In this episode of the Really Good Conversations podcast, Amy Faulkner chats with Camilla Thompson - Australia's leading biohacker, wellness coach, and author of Biohack Me.  From corporate burnout and postnatal depression to chronic illness triggered by mould exposure, Camilla shares her deeply personal journey into the world of biohacking. Camilla unpacks what biohacking really is, and why it's not just for Silicon Valley types.  Instead, it's about simple, science-backed strategies that anyone can use to feel better, think clearer, and age well.  They explore foundational biohacks basics like improving sleep, getting natural morning light, balancing nutrition, and building anchor habits that ripple through your energy, mood and focus. Camilia highlights why healthspan matters just as much as lifespan; especially for high-performing professionals, business owners and parents navigating stress, brain fog and the mental load. Key Outtakes:  Biohacking is about personal, preventative health - not expensive tech Camilla's journey from mould poisoning to exploring biohacking Sleep is the most underrated health strategy Chronic stress and "mum brain" are real - and reversible Understanding hormones is crucial for women's health Biohacking basics do not require expensive technology Nature and simple practices can be powerful biohacks   Whether you're leading a business, running a household, or trying to stay sharp in a high-pressure role, this episode offers practical strategies to help you future-proof your health, and show up at your best.   For more information about Camilla and her work: The Wellness Coach https://www.thewellnesscoach.org/ Biohack Me https://www.biohackme.com.au/ Book: Bio Hack Me https://www.biohackme.com.au/my-book    

"Most kids don't need therapy, they need their environment to change." In this episode of the Really Good Conversations podcast, Amy speaks with psychotherapist, parent coach, and author Nicole Runyon about modern parenting, child mental health, and the unseen impact of technology.  In this honest conversation, Nicole explains why therapy isn't always the answer, and how children's behaviours are often a response to their environment, not a diagnosis.  Drawing from her book Free to Fly, she shares insights into child development stages, screen time by age, and the long-term effects of permissive parenting.  Nicole encourages parents to reclaim their role, delay exposure to tech, and prioritise everyday moments of connection to help their children grow into resilient, independent adults. Key Outtakes:  Why the mental health industry may not want people to truly get well The problem with over-relying on therapy for anxious children How early screen use disrupts natural development stages Why discomfort and frustration are essential to growing resilience What parents can do to course-correct, even if they feel it's "too late"   For more information: Nicole Runyon Website https://nicolerunyon.com/ Book: Free to Fly https://nicolerunyon.com/free-to-fly/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolerunyonlmsw/    

How Atlassian's Work Futurist is flipping the script on how work really works. In this episode of Amy speaks with Dominic Price, Atlassian's Work Futurist and self-described recovering workaholic.  From growing up in Manchester, UK to helping transform global organisations, Dom shares an honest, entertaining take on productivity, leadership, and the very human side of work. Together, they explore what's broken about modern work and what needs to change if we're going to build something better. They discuss why "high-performance teams" are a myth, how our obsession with busyness is holding us back, and why many wellness initiatives are more theatre than substance. Dom explains how large companies can become unstuck from outdated ways of working, and why small businesses have an unfair advantage when it comes to learning and adaptability. The conversation also touches on cultural differences in global workplaces, the role of honest conversations in team dynamics, and how to cut through the noise of tech tools to actually get work done. Dom reflects on his own journey, the impact of losing his sister, and how fatherhood has shifted his priorities and approach to boundaries.   Key Outtakes:  What 'A Work Futurist' actually is  Dom's journey from growing up in Manchester to Sydney as a Work Futurist  Our unhealthy obsession with productivity & why it's often the wrong thing to measure  The power of learning velocity in small businesses Why boundaries and honest conversations matter more than ever How to cut through noise and tech clutter to focus on impact What the next generation needs from the future of work   Whether you're leading a team, running your own business, or simply wondering what the future of work holds — this conversation will challenge how you think, and maybe even how you work.   Find out more about Dom Price: Website - https://domprice.me/ LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominic-price-0892243/ Atlassian - https://www.atlassian.com/

To celebrate the two year anniversary of the Really Good Conversations podcast Amy flips the mic and chats with the person behind every episode, podcast editor and multidisciplinary creative, Gosia Lapinski. With a rich background in digital design, art and language teaching, Gosia brings a thoughtful, intuitive approach to communication and editing. Together they discuss how language shapes personality, the cultural differences in how we speak, and what makes a conversation feel truly engaging. Gosia shares insights from both her editing desk and teaching experience, highlighting what AI tools still can't replicate the subtle cues editors listen for that machines miss (although it may be able to do this down the line). Key Topics Discussed:  Gosia's insights as a language teacher How learning a second language reshapes your identity The cultural differences in how we small talk Our podcast editing process and tools   Skills needed to create a successful podcast Importance of audio consistency The balance between polish and authenticity What AI can't do (yet) in podcast editing   This is a reflective, behind-the-scenes conversation filled with laughter and honest observations about how we connect, and why it matters.   Find out more about Gosia  https://gosialapinski.com/

In this episode, Amy speaks with Dr Kristy Goodwin, a neuro-performance expert dedicated to helping individuals thrive amidst digital distractions. Dr Kristy shares her journey from academia to becoming a leading voice in digital wellbeing, including powerful insights from her own experience with burnout. She explains the neuroscience behind digital stress, how technology affects our brains, the challenges of burnout, and why aligning our work with our 'human operating system' is crucial. Dr Kristy provides practical tips for achieving sustainable high performance, managing screen time effectively, fostering genuine human connections, and reclaiming your energy, attention, and time in our always-on world.   Key Topics Outtakes:  Understand how digital overload is silently impacting your health and productivity. Learn practical tools for avoiding burnout and restoring rest. Explore why face-to-face interactions trigger better emotional health than digital communications. Recognise the signs of digital distraction and how to reclaim your focus. Discover simple daily habits that can boost your resilience to stress and improve overall wellbeing.   Dr Kristy Goodwin Website www.drkristygoodwin.com Instagram www.instagram.com/drkristy/ LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/dr-kristy-goodwin/

In this engaging conversation, Amy talks with Michelle Broadbent, a seasoned business strategist and founder of the Accountability Circle dedicated to empowering female entrepreneurs. Michelle opens up about the power of authentic connections, the importance of accountability, and reveals practical strategies for women facing common entrepreneurial challenges. She discusses why traditional work-life balance is a myth, how to build genuine, supportive networks, and why accountability often requires external support.   Key Outtakes: Building authentic connections is essential to overcoming the loneliness often experienced by business owners. Accountability involves clearly declaring your goals to someone trustworthy who can help keep you focused. Women entrepreneurs commonly face challenges around cash flow, hiring effective teams, and managing time effectively. Work-life balance is more realistically a blend of priorities rather than a perfect equilibrium. Practical tips for accountability include visible goal tracking and making dedicated time to act on your business strategies.   This episode is packed with relatable insights and useful advice for anyone striving to navigate the realities of running their own business.   Michelle Broadbent:  Website www.michellebroadbent.com.au Accountability Circle www.michellebroadbent.com.au/accountability-circle/ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellebroadbent/

Bettina Arndt has spent over 50 years in the media as a pioneering sex therapist and later as a vocal social commentator. Join Amy as she explores Bettina's extensive career, starting in the 1970s as one of Australia's first sex therapists. They discuss the significant societal changes she has witnessed over the decades and her motivations for addressing topics many consider taboo or controversial. Bettina shares insights into the evolution of sex therapy, the importance of including men's perspectives in relationship discourse, and the ongoing challenges of gender issues. She reflects on her evolving views on feminism, her experiences with early career criticism, and the lessons she hopes to impart to younger generations. We were keen to speak with Bettina to understand what drives someone to consistently engage with 'taboo topics', despite facing media scrutiny and public backlash, and to explore the resilience required to sustain such a challenging career path over decades.   Topics discussed include: Bettina's early inspiration from sex researchers Masters and Johnson and her role in pioneering sex therapy in Australia. Societal challenges and backlash she faced while promoting open discussions on sex and relationships. The shift in her career focus from sex therapy to addressing broader societal issues, especially advocating for men's rights amidst modern feminism. How she has navigated public scrutiny and controversy. Her reflections on the changing landscape of gender discourse, the importance of fair treatment, and her vision for future societal changes concerning gender equity. This thought provoking episode is perfect for anyone interested in the evolution of social attitudes towards gender, the dynamics of taboo topics, and the challenges of advocating for change in a shifting societal landscape. Discover more about Bettina Arndt:  https://www.bettinaarndt.com.au/

Join us for a fascinating conversation with Ning Cheah, founder of The Beauty Crop, who left a career in investment banking to build a million-pound beauty brand from scratch.  Ning reveals how her personal struggles with eczema and acne led her to create affordable plant-based beauty products.  She shares honest insights on bootstrapping her business, pivoting successfully to online sales during COVID, becoming a TikTok sensation, and balancing motherhood with scaling her business. Key Topics Discussed: How Ning made the leap from finance to beauty entrepreneurship Strategies behind successfully bootstrapping a million-pound brand Pivoting to online sales and embracing TikTok to drive rapid growth Practical insights on managing cash flow without external investors Balancing entrepreneurship and motherhood, and why perspective matters Tune in for practical insights on career pivots, entrepreneurship, bootstrapping a business, and leveraging social media for growth. Perfect for aspiring entrepreneurs, career-changers, and beauty industry enthusiasts.   For more information:  The Beauty Crop Website: https://thebeautycrop.co.uk/

"Not ​one ​moment ​defines ​you, ​but ​all ​moments ​do ​make ​you." In this episode, join Amy as she speaks with Luke Cook, a remarkable entrepreneur who is no stranger to facing challenges and adversity in both life and business.  Luke recounts how the loss of his business in March 2020 due to COVID-19 led him to run a virtual coffee shop every morning for over a year, an experience that culminated in the creation of Cuppa TV, a platform dedicated to fostering meaningful conversations across diverse topics.  Luke shares how pivotal moments (good and bad) in life can be a catalyst for positive movements. He provides practical strategies for turning adversity into advantage. Learn how to navigate life's puzzles with resilience and purpose in this engaging discussion, packed with insights and inspiration for anyone navigating their own path in business and life. Key takeaways: Resilience Through Adversity: Luke recounts overcoming the loss of his business to COVID-19 and how it fuelled his next ventures. Power of Pivotal Moments: Discover how life's moments, good or bad, can catalyse personal and professional growth. Turning Challenges into Opportunities: Gain strategies for transforming adversities into actionable opportunities. Building Community: See how Cuppa TV promotes diverse, impactful conversations and community strength. 'Moments to Movements' Philosophy: Luke shares how everyday moments can evolve into significant movements, inspiring personal and societal change.   For more information on Cuppa TV and Luke Cook check out the following websites:  Cuppa Website: https://cuppa.tv/ Luke Cook: https://lukecook.com.au/  

Professor Byron Sharp is one of the most influential voices in modern marketing, known for debunking industry myths and reshaping how we think about brand growth. As Director of the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute and author of How Brands Grow, he has transformed our understanding of consumer behaviour, brand growth and advertising. In this episode, we explore the man behind the marketing science; his journey from academia to the real world of marketing, revealing the insights that have transformed his understanding of consumer behaviour and brand dynamics.  He shares his views on AI, branding, and why open-mindedness and scepticism matter.  We also challenge him to a game of True or False on some of the most debated marketing theories.  If you've ever questioned what really drives brand success, this one's for you.   Key Topics:  Behind the marketing scientist – Professor Byron Sharp's journey from academia to influencing global brands. Debunking Marketing Myths - we challenge Byron to a game of True or False. Branding Bullsh*t - his biggest bug bear in branding/marketing  AI in branding – Byron's take on whether technology is helping or misleading marketers. Open-mindedness vs scepticism – why both are essential in marketing (and life). Future Trends  For more information  Ehrenberg-Bass Institute - The home of evidence-based marketing https://marketingscience.info/ Books https://marketingscience.info/books/ Professor Byron Sharp - https://www.linkedin.com/in/professorbyronsharp/

How can we build stronger, healthier relationships? In this episode, Amy chats with Michelle Hayes, Head of Relationship Counselling at Marriage Care, a UK charity dedicated to supporting couples through their relationship challenges. Michelle shares expert insights on effective communication, relationship myths, and navigating modern relationship challenges. From debunking the 'perfect relationship' to managing conflict and setting healthy boundaries, she offers practical tips for couples at any stage. Key Topics: The biggest myths about relationships – From the "perfect relationship" to the idea that passion always fades, Michelle debunks common misconceptions.   Why communication is the #1 relationship challenge – How poor communication creates conflict and practical ways to improve how couples talk and listen.   Navigating relationship struggles in modern life – The impact of work, technology, and external pressures on couples today.   How relationship counselling works – What to expect from couples therapy and when to seek help.   Practical tips for handling difficult conversations – The 'speaker-listener' approach and techniques to avoid defensiveness and conflict. Whether you're in a long-term partnership or just starting out, this insightful conversation will help you nurture deeper, more fulfilling connections.   For more information and further resources:  Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn  Marriage Care Website: https://www.marriagecare.org.uk/ One Plus One: https://www.oneplusone.org.uk/ The Gottman Institute: https://www.gottman.com/  

In this episode, Amy chats with Tom Pinchard, a seasoned creative who transitioned from leading a successful London agency to becoming a transformative coach. Tom now helps his clients grow and thrive across various aspects of their lives. He reflects on his career journey, sharing how certain aspects of his work left him unfulfilled and searching for deeper meaning. Since retraining as a coach, Tom has embraced the power of connecting with strangers, creating unique supper club dining events in London and LA that spark transformative conversations. Tom also explores the importance of discomfort, questioning whether being "comfortable" truly serves us as humans. Key Topics: Redefining Success: Tom's journey from creative agency leader to coach and finding fulfilment through change. Connecting with Strangers: How strangers offer fresh perspectives and foster meaningful connections. The Power of Discomfort: Why stepping outside your comfort zone is vital for growth. Conversation Starters: Tips for asking open questions to spark deeper conversations. Tune in for an engaging discussion filled with personal growth insights, the value of discomfort, and the magic of connecting with strangers.   Find out more about Tom Pinchard at: Website: https://www.tompinchard.com/ LinkedIn

We kick off 2025 with Colleen Callander, a trailblazing leader with over 30 years of experience in the retail industry, author of Leader by Design and co-author of Elevate.  Colleen shares her inspiring journey from leaving school as a 16-year-old sales assistant to CEO of renowned Australian fashion brands, Sportsgirl and Sussan. We discuss her secrets to success, navigating burnout and how she overcame it. The challenges of balancing work and family, and the power of kindness in leadership.  Key Topics:  Colleen's early career and leaving school for her first job in retail  Rising through the ranks to CEO Overcoming burnout  Leadership and Kindness Advice and tips for business and life  We also put Colleen on the spot with 3 questions from our pack of cards including 'If you came with a warning label, what would it say?'   Whether you're a leader, aspiring entrepreneur, or navigating work-life balance, Colleen's wisdom will leave you inspired to elevate every aspect of your life.   Find out more about Colleen at:  Website: https://www.colleencallander.com.au/ Human Elevation: https://www.humanelevation.com.au/      

What if you could ask anyone, dead or alive, one question? At the end of each podcast episode, we ask our guests: "If you could ask any person, dead or alive, a question, who would it be, and what would you ask them?" In 2024, we welcomed so many inspiring and interesting people to Really Good Conversations. For this special episode, we've compiled the fascinating answers from every guest this year. From historical icons to modern-day legends, discover who they'd choose and the burning questions they'd ask. This episode offers a thought-provoking reflection on curiosity, inspiration, and the power of great questions. Who would you choose? Thank you for listening throughout 2024 – we look forward to bringing you more amazing guests in 2025!   2024 Guests include:  Dr Delia McCabe Lucy Hitchcock Bethany Burns Bowman  Tim Engelbrecht Charlotte Walsh Ned Walker Hermione Olivia  Jem Fuller Lisa Hollinshead Tashi Dorjee Shannah Kennedy Rebecca Saunders Peter Anthony Melissa Browne Stacey McNeil Michele Ferron Georgie Davies Sue Atkins Hannah Springham Sarah Ward Genevieve Sweeney

Join Amy in this inspiring episode of the Really Good Conversations as she chats with British knitwear designer Genevieve Sweeney. Genevieve shares how her passion for knitting began at age five, her mission to preserve UK manufacturing, and the challenges of balancing a family and growing business. Learn about her commitment to craftsmanship, creating ethical collections, and the lessons she's learned from grassroots growth to building a thriving brand. We discuss:  Genevieve's passion for knitting and interest in preserving a dying craftmanship  How her experiences working with global fashion brands inspired her to do things differently  Staying true to her own values; even when it means going against industry norms  Why sustainability and ethical production are central to Genevieve's business model Balancing a young family whilst building a business  The future of knitwear production and how she strives to make a positive impact   A must-listen for anyone passionate about sustainability, creativity, and small business innovation.   Visit Genevieve Sweeney - https://www.genevievesweeney.com/

Join Amy as she chats with Sarah Ward, CEO of the Giftware Association and a powerhouse in the gift and home industry. Sarah shares her inspiring journey, from her early retail roles as a schoolgirl to leading the UK's largest trade body.  Together, they delve into the vital role of the Giftware Association in supporting businesses, the often-underrated skills gained in retail, and how small businesses can prepare for international trade with confidence. Sarah also reveals why empowering women in business has become important for her and shares invaluable advice for small businesses, highlighting the magic of collaboration and her enduring passion for people and products. Whether you're in business, have a product, or are simply curious about the world of trade, this episode is packed with actionable insights.   Key topics of discussed: Sarah's personal journey in retail and leadership  The role of the Giftware Association  Valuing retail and industry skills: building successful careers and businesses Preparing for International Trade Empowering women in business  The magics of collaboration and building strong business relationships     Giftware Association - www.giftwareassociation.org Sarah Ward LinkedIn

When Covid-19 hit, the hospitality industry had to pivot, with many adopting at-home dining options. Award-winning Norwich restaurant Farmyard took on this challenge, determined to ensure their dishes tasted as good at home as in their Michelin-listed restaurant. They transformed their best offerings into high-quality frozen meals for home enjoyment. Fast forward to 2024: Husband and wife duo Hannah and Andrew made the tough decision to close their restaurant of 7 years fully and focus on Farmyard Frozen. In this episode of Really Good Conversations, Hannah shares their journey of redefining frozen food with restaurant-quality meals, navigating challenges, the creative dynamics of working with her husband, and Farmyard's exciting future plans.   Pivoting in a Pandemic: How Farmyard shifted from fine dining to frozen meals. Quality Standards: The challenges of ensuring restaurant-quality food at home. Creative Dynamics: Insights into running a business as a husband-wife team. Lessons Learned: Overcoming misconceptions about frozen food. Future Plans: Farmyard's vision to make fine dining frozen a household name.   Tune in for an inspiring journey of food innovation and making tough decisions in business.    Check out Farmyard Frozen at:  https://farmyardfrozen.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/farmyard_frozen/  

In this episode of Really Good Conversations, Amy chats with parenting expert and author Sue Atkins on navigating modern parenting challenges in a tech-filled world. Hear Sue's journey from 18 years of teaching to becoming a leading voice in parenting, offering practical advice for parents.  Sue shares insights on building children's confidence, setting boundaries around digital devices, and fostering real-life connections in a digital age.  They discuss the importance of delayed screen access for younger children and practical strategies for managing social media with teens.  Tune in for valuable advice on creating tech-free spaces at home, helping children develop resilience, and using Sue's "digital jungle" tips for healthy, balanced tech use. They discuss:  Balancing Tech & Real life  Strategies for delaying smartphone access Tips on device-free times  Parents setting a positive example  Engaging kids in conversations about digital safety  Whether you're a parent or just curious about the impact of digital devices on children, this episode is packed with insights and tips for everyone.   Sue has a huge amount of resources available for parents: Sue Atkins Website: https://sueatkinsparentingcoach.com/ Navigating the digital jungle: https://navigatingthedigitaljungle.com/     Tips & Scripts for parents: Building confidence in saying 'no' to smartphones until aged 14:  https://sueatkinsparentingcoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Smartphones-downloadable.pdf Language matters: Why 'Safety Settings' Speak Louder Than 'Parental Controls. Navigating the Digital Jungle: Tips and SCRIPTS To Start Important Conversations. https://sueatkinsparentingcoach.com/2024/08/language-matters-why-safety-settings-speak-louder-than-parental-controls-scripts-to-start-important-conversations/   Anti-Dopamine Parenting! Breaking the Cycle: A New Approach to Parenting in a Digital Age https://sueatkinsparentingcoach.com/2024/07/anti-dopamine-parenting-breaking-the-dopamine-cycle-a-new-approach-to-parenting-in-a-digital-age/ Sweets and Screens: The Dopamine Battle for Your Kids' Attention https://sueatkinsparentingcoach.com/2024/07/what-exactly-is-a-dopamine-crash-here-are-ways-to-handling-it-more-positively-at-different-ages/# SCRIPTS for Setting Social Media Boundaries with Kids. https://sueatkinsparentingcoach.com/2024/09/scripts-for-setting-social-media-boundaries-with-kids/   Digital Jungle SCRIPTS: Navigating the Algorithm Generation: A Guide for Parents https://sueatkinsparentingcoach.com/2024/08/digital-jungle-scripts-navigating-the-algorithm-generation-a-guide-for-parents/  

In this episode, Amy chats with Georgie Davies, founder of Yogipod, a yoga and lifestyle brand that helps people find calm through handmade, sustainable products.  Georgie shares her journey from the fast-paced world of fashion and burnout to discovering the benefits of yoga, which led her to start her own business.  Learn about the art of block printing, how she juggles yoga teaching, product creation, and the challenges of running a small business, all whilst trying to find balance in life. We discuss:  Transitioning from burnout  Finding inspiration overseas Stepping away to step forward  The art of block printing  Building a yoga lifestyle brand - with handmade products and teaching Balancing business and teaching  Challenges and highlights Community and collaboration  Whether you're a yoga enthusiast or a budding entrepreneur, this episode is packed with insights and inspiration. Yogipod website: https://yogipod.co.uk/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yogi_pod/  

In this episode of Really Good Conversations, Amy chats with Michelle Ferron, founder of Good Tuesday, a sustainably conscious stationery brand for those who want to organise their lives with style. Michelle shares her inspiring journey from launching the business on Etsy during the 2020 pandemic to scaling it into a million-pound company.  They dive into the challenges of growing a small business, including navigating Brexit, Royal Mail strikes, and a hacking incident. Michelle also reflects on key milestones, such as the rebrand and achieving B Corp certification. Michelle also offers advice on overcoming adversity and maintaining ethical business practices.    They discuss: What prompted Michele to start the business in lockdown  Challenges they have faced and how they've overcome them  Key milestones and achievements  Rebranding from Once Upon a Tuesday to Good Tuesday  Balancing profit and ethical practices  Value business advice  Growing a business and a family    Tune in to hear her valuable insights into business growth, resilience and profit.    Find out more about Good Tuesday at www.goodtuesday.com

"Finding beautiful ways to say the things that matter." In this episode of Really Good Conversations, Amy speaks with Stacey McNeil, the creator of card and gift brand Fox Under the Moon. What started as a pandemic hobby has grown into a thriving brand, capturing hearts with its heartfelt artwork and inspiring messages. Stacey shares her journey from the stresses of primary school teaching to entrepreneurship. The challenges she has faced, how she used social media to build a loyal following with over 250,000 followers, the secrets behind her consistent branding, and how she turned her passion into a successful business.  They discuss:  Stacey's personal journey with mental health, leaving her career and pressing the reset button  How a pandemic hobby turned into the Fox Under the Moon brand The organic growth of the brand through social media  The challanges faced along the way  Working with her husband Jamie and how they stay sane    Tune in to learn how Fox Under the Moon became an award-winning brand and discover Stacey's tips for fostering community and creativity online. Fox Under The Moon - www.foxunderthemoonart.com

"The only thing certain in life is death, taxes, and uncertainty." In this episode of the Really Good Conversations podcast, host Amy chats to Melissa Browne, a financial expert, author, and speaker dedicated to enhancing financial literacy, particularly among women. Mel shares her fascinating journey from an aspiring lawyer to accountant to financial educator, discussing the pivotal moments and challenges that shaped her career. They discuss: The time she gave all of her divorce proceeds to charity The taboo of talking about money The importance of financial education Understanding your money story  Practical tips for managing money in relationships The future of money in a digital world    Listen in for an engaging conversation filled with valuable insights and personal anecdotes that highlight the importance of financial independence and literacy.   You can find out more about Mel, her financial courses at https://www.melissabrowne.com.au/ For FREE resources and downloads: https://www.melissabrowne.com.au/freebies Follow her on instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/melbrowne.money/  

There is a magic in collaborating with people in conversation, when you both achieve more than you could alone. In this episode of the Really Good Conversations podcast Amy sits down with Peter Anthony, an expert in professional communication who helps individuals and corporations achieve better outcomes through the power of effective collaboration. They uncover the magic of collaborative conversations, discussing Peter's journey from traditional sales to a more effective, collaborative approach.  Peter outlines the six moments that matter in any conversation and explore the importance of setting goals, building rapport, and understanding decision-making processes.  Whether you're looking to improve your personal or professional relationships, this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical advice.    Find out more about Peter Anthony at https://peteranthonyconsulting.com/ The Book: Collabradabra (Link)  

Running a business as a solo entrepreneur can be lonely. How ​do ​you ​even make ​friends ​when ​you're ​running ​businesses? In this episode of the Really Good Conversations Podcast Amy chats to Rebecca Saunders, the founder of The Champagne Lounge — a membership community connecting businesswomen across regional Australia. Rebecca shares her inspiring journey from the UK to Australia, where she built a successful video production company before creating The Champagne Lounge to connect and empower women. Amy and Rebecca discuss the importance of community connections, personal branding, and the role of confidence in business. Rebecca shares some practical advice for building networks and maintaining quality conversations in a digital world. Key highlights:  Rebecca's Inspiring Journey from the UK to Australia Starting a Video Production Company The creation of The Champagne Lounge Building Networks and Making Friends in Adult life & business  The Role of Confidence in Business Celebrating Milestones with Champagne Maintaining Quality Conversations in a Digital World Tune in for insights on navigating entrepreneurship, building networks, and embracing personal confidence. Website: http://rebeccasaunders.com/ The Champagne Lounge: https://www.thechampagnelounge.com/ Socials: @therebeccasaunders and @thechampagnelounge_

Discover the transformative power of life planning, the importance of self-discovery, and how to cultivate a meaningful relationship with yourself.  In this inspiring episode of Really Good Conversations Amy chats to Shannah Kennedy, a master life strategist, coach, bestselling author of 'The Life Plan' and co-author of her latest book 'Elevate'. With over 20 years of experience, Shannah shares her journey from corporate burnout, insights on effective coaching, and the significance of breathing and pacing our fast-paced lives.  We discuss:  Shannah's journey to becoming a life coach The most important relationship is with yourself Essential communication skills for effective coaching Techniques for deep listening and creating a safe space The benefits of having conversations with yourself Power of journaling and vision boarding Tune in for valuable insights and actionable tips.  Learn the art of having meaningful conversations with yourself and elevate your life.   Find free resources, books and more information from Shannah at:  Website: https://shannahkennedy.com/ Human Elevation: https://www.humanelevation.com.au/    

In this episode of the Really Good Conversations, Amy sits down with Tashi Dorjee, also known as "The Failed Founder" on his YouTube channel.  Tashi shares his incredible journey from running a $10 million startup called Two Space to transitioning to a Corporate Exec at a Fortune 500 company.  They discuss the highs and lows of entrepreneurship, the importance of taking the leap, and the valuable lessons learned along the way. Tune in for an engaging and insightful conversation: Tashi's Entrepreneurial Journey The Two Space Concept Lessons from Failure Investment in Startups Transition to Corporate Life Tashi's Unique Family Background that has shaped his entrepreneurial spirit   Check out Tashi's YouTube 'The Failed Founder' for more business insights, tips and advice  https://www.youtube.com/@thefailedfounder Connect with Tashi on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/tashiddorjee      

As the pandemic began in March 2020, Lisa Hollinshead found herself stranded in Spain with her son whilst visiting family.  Instead of focusing solely on her own survival, she was inspired to address the isolation many faced. This led her to rally 250 volunteers to build an online platform to unite people globally provide help to one another.  In this episode, Amy chats with Lisa, PR specialist and founder of Social101 and OneAnother, about her entrepreneurial journey and drive.  Lisa shares her inspiring journey from launching a kindness platform during the pandemic to addressing corporate social responsibility through volunteer leave days.    Tune in to hear:  How Lisa creating a digital platform with 250 volunteers across the world  Challenges and pivoting in business  The CSR lip service and lost volunteer days  A key piece of advice for anyone considering PR for their business    Tune in for an inspiring conversation on building connections through kindness.   Connect with Lisa on LinkedIn Find out more about One Another www.oneanother.io Social 101 - https://social101.com/  

Take a moment for yourself as Jem Fuller guides you through a Mindfulness Moment.  Prior to record our podcast interview 'Conscious Communication & Overcoming Ego', Jem kindly recorded a guided mindfullness moment.  Take a listen and enjoy.     

The art of conscious communication and how it can transform your personal and professional life.  In this episode of the Really Good Conversations Amy speaks with Jem Fuller a leadership mindset and communication coach, speaker and author. Jem gives us an insight into his fascinating life journey to date, he really has lived the extremes. From barefoot backpacking through the Indian sub-continent, to senior leadership with an array of adventurous experiences in between.  We dive into:  The power of conscious communication What prompted Jem to write the book 'The Art of Conscious Communication for Thoughtful Men'. Common communication challenges in the workplace and relationships  The role of ego  'That Conversations' - how to approach those crucial conversations we often avoid Tune in for an enlightening conversation filled with practical advice and inspiring stories.  Jem has also provided a gift for our listeners - free access to his Mindfulness Course    Jem Fuller Website: https://jemfuller.com/ Jem Fuller Instagram  Mindfulness Course  Get free access with the code Jem provides at the end of our conversation TEDx Talk - How Concious Communication Can Change Your Game 

Content Warning: Alex Marshall has hijacked this week's podcast episode as our host! God help us all! Would you believe we have been running this podcast for a year!  To celebrate running the podcast for 1 year, Really Good Conversations co-founder Alex Marshall puts Amy in the hot seat to find out what goes into making a podcast and how she has kept it going since May 2023.  Tune in for a fun and informative episode:  Why we started this podcast  What happens behind the scenes What Amy would change with a years worth of knowledge  The best type of guest And of course - Amy is put on the spot to answer questions from our pack  This episode is full of insights for anyone thinking about starting a podcast or anyone who has wondered how easy it is to release an episode.  Let us know what you think about Alex's hosting skills, should we have him again? A huge thank you to all of our amazing guests so far and for everyone who listens.   Links StartsWithA : www.startswitha.co Really Good Conversations: www.reallygoodconversations.com Amys LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyfaulkner/  

Join Amy in this enlightening episode of Really Good Conversations as she talks with Hermione Olivia, serial entrepreneur and founder of 'CEO Yourself'.  Hermione shares her inspiring journey from Australia to London and the powerful message behind her platform designed to empower women to become the best version of themslves — Cherish Every Opportunity.  Hermione shares: The catalyst to CEO Yourself Balancing entrepreneurship with motherhood Navigating cultural nuances in business and new markets  Trusting your instincts This episode is motivating, uplifting and includes practical advice for anyone aiming to excel personally and professionally.   CEO Yourself Hermione Olivia Instagram CEO Yourself Instagram