The God Journey - 2009

Wayne and Brad pass on their Christmas greetings to The God Journey crowd as they take a couple of weeks off from recording to find some rest, refreshing and joy with family as well. We’ll be back on January 8, 2010. If you’ve listened well to us you’ll be able to thrive in this season without us. If you haven’t listened that carefully, there is an archive full of podcasts for your listening pleasure. Perhaps they will help you find great joy and comfort not in the theology of Christianity, but in the life of Jesus. Just use the links at left.

Brad is back from Nashville and Wayne from Brazil. They have lots of catching up to do and Wayne shares some of his experiences with brothers and sisters in Brazil. They also share some letters from other listeners, which causes them to contemplate a question too often ignored. Is the Bible is written to give us God’s requirements the requirements reluctant followers must follow, or to equip those who are hungry to know the Father and be transformed into his likeness.

What’s the difference between living with an expectancy in God’s unfolding purpose in our lives, and trying to get God to fulfill our expectations for our own convenience or for the ministry we want to have? A question Brad poses to Wayne opens up a dialog about what kind of expectancy they live in about the future and how being a part of God’s unfolding purpose sets us at rest as circumstances unfold because we no longer have to control them. They also talk about how that mentality reshapes our prayers for ourselves and for others.

Wayne and Brad continue the discussion they began last week about the quest for expressions of church that allow authentic community to grow and flourish. To add to the discussion they read from a book review in Christianity Today about Why Churchless Christianity Doesn’t Work and from an analysis of “postchurch” Christianity. Where does community emerge and is there a minimal standard of institutionalization or number of people to qualify a group of people as an official ‘church’?

After celebrating a bit of thanksgiving with some listener letters, Wayne and Brad look some news stories talking about the demands and dysfunctions of being a pastor in the 21st century. Have we created a position ripe for disaster, both for the person who tries to fill that role and the congregation that wants him to? Then they look at a humorous and incisive article called, “The Flabby Body of Christ” that was written by a psychotherapist about the problems we encounter today as so many people view at the gatherings of believers as theater instead of community.

Brad breaks the rules. What happened in Vegas, doesn”t stay in Vegas. Having just returned from a business seminar in Las Vegas he tells about a fresh work of grace in his heart that God revealed to him while he was there. That leads to a discussion with Wayne about how lost we can be in our own agendas and ambitions that we dehumanize the people we pass by and only think of them relative to how they impact us, or we can have eyes of compassion that see people for who they are and care about them. Living with eyes of compassion only happens when we slow down enough to see what God is doing around us, rather than rushing through our day.

Wayne is back from South Africa and shares insights of his trip with Brad, especially how people are learning to break free of the fear of appeasement and are learning to live loved by the Father. Also included is a brief interview with Stephan Vosloo to update how their journey has gone since telling us The Ladysmith Story back in 2005. One theme seems to recur in the dialog—how easily our old patterns of religion keep us from embracing the fresh life and freedom God has given us in the Son. It is easy to think we’ve been changed because we’ve read something we liked or because we can vocalize a concept that hasn’t yet transformed our heart.

Brad and Wayne interviewed Darin last week on the release of his newest book, The Misunderstood God: The Lies Religion Teaches About God. They held him over for a second week to find out more about his personal life, what makes him tick and where his passions are in encouraging the body of Christ. He has an interesting story moving from a staff pastor at a mega-church that his wife grew up in, to an encourager of people who are discovering the joy of living loved. You can find out more about Darin at his website, The Free Believer’s Network.

<img src="http://www.thegodjourney.com/blogimages/misunderstoodgod.jpg" align="left">Wayne and Brad have enjoyed a growing relationship with Darin Hufford and are now helping him bring his newest book to print through <a href="http://www.windblownmedia.com/">Windblown Media</a>. <a href="http://www.themisunderstoodgod.com/">The Misunderstood God: The Lies Religion Teaches Us About God</a> is a reworking of Darin’s earlier book, The God’s Honest Truth. In this compelling read Darin probes the question as to whether God, in claiming to be love itself, meets his own definition of love in I Corinthians 13. He concludes that religion’s definition of God does not, and though they call him the Loving God they have ascribed to him the personality of the devil. Darin joins Wayne and Brad in this podcast to discuss his book and his own discovery about learning to live in the reality of the Father’s love. You can find out more about Darin at his website, The <a href="http://www.freebelievers.com/">Free Believer’s Network</a>.

Wayne is off to South Africa and before he left he started a discussion with Brad about our endless fascination with speculation and controversy, in sports as well as in theology and human relationships. And those keep us from living in the adventure of learning to discern him and follow him in each unfolding moment. Instead of speculating on what God should do to make me happy, we can discover what he is doing, even in the pains and trials of life in a broken world. Special Notice: Archive Disc 5 is now available, which includes the broadband version of podcasts from November 2008 through August 2009.

If we’re ever going to sail in the joy and freedom of this journey, we have to learn again how to live out of hearts where God interacts with our Spirit, rather than trying to live out of intellect and emotions. That’s not to say our intellect or emotions are unimportant, but both have the capacity to lead us astray. Wayne and Brad talk about how God wants to make himself known in our hearts and the dictates of religion more often than not dull our sense of knowing him and responding to his nudges in our life. Special Notice: Archive Disc 5 is now available, which includes the broadband version of podcasts from November 2008 through August 2009.

Who are real pastors and elders among the Body of Christ today? That’s not where Brad and Wayne start their discussion, but it is where it ends. A letter from a senior pastor to a former member of his church launches a discussion about those who seek control over others by fear and intimidation because they have a program to manage. Real elders and pastors among the body of Christ are not those who build fences to claim part of the flock as their own, but those who encourage and equip others to live freely and deeply in the love of the Father. And there are many of those throughout this incredible family!

What did Jesus mean when he promised his followers abundant life? We’ve been taught that it means a life of ease and our selected list of creature comforts. But does it? Through the letters of a few of their listeners Wayne and Brad dive into this topic with a daughter disaffected from her family, a lady who found herself becoming more of a Pharisee in the organic church movement than she did within, and the father of a pretty special set of twins! Only in him will we discover true fullness and be able to embrace the glorious adventure of living loved and loving others as each day unfolds.

One of the great freedoms of living loved is no longer feeling the compulsion to manipulate others to see what you see. When you find that grace you can now be alongside someone in a way that reflects how God does it with us and that opens doors into the deeper kinds of conversations that genuinely help others along their journey while you give them the space to grow.

Wayne and Brad were in Denver with the authors of the newly-released novel Bo’s Café, John Lynch, Bill Thrall, and Bruce McNicol. This amazing story chronicles a young man whose life is being torn apart by his own anger, and confronts the reality of grace that unfolds in a way that takes him by surprise and makes him face the darkest corners of his heart. The podcast also gets behind the scenes of how this book came to be and the process behind the shaping of the story as a new title from Windblown Media. You can find out more about our guests at their website and hear the earlier podcast with them here.

If you don't relax, you're still trying. Brad and Wayne spend some time dipping into the ol' mail bag and find some fascinating stories from people who are transitioning from thinking religiously to learning to live relationally. People share some great insights and passionate moments as they are learning to live loved rather than to work a religious system. One man asks about those who have never been in religious settings and then answers his own question better than we could. In the end, for all of us, it is simply about hearing, trusting and following what Jesus makes known to us.

How can we communicate with others our heart-felt passions, even political positions, without destroying our relationship with them? Recent comments about the health care debate in the States brought a host of responses from listeners, many of which wanted to divide up sides and diminish those that disagreed with them. The pretense of certainty and our desire to convince others how right we are actually destroys both relationship and dialog. Wayne and Brad talk about the community people most often seek, they actually subvert by these tactics. It is often true that those who scream the loudest are the least certain of their grasp on truth or freedom.

How do we know the difference between God asking us to labor alongside him in some task, and employing the arm of flesh to try to do something for God? Wayne and Brad wade into those waters as they talk about the futility of flesh, but the power of cooperating with God in those things he wants to share with us. The difference is not always easy to tell, but there are some clues that might help. In the end, it’s not about manipulating others to the response we want from them, but about living a life so full and free in him that others want to feast from the same plate we are.

The people who seem to enjoy the journey they most are those who have learned the secret of enjoying God’s grace in the face of uncertainty, not those who try to remove uncertainty from their lives. Wayne and Brad dip into the old mailbox as they discuss our attempts to manipulate life and even how some manipulate their spouse all in an attempt to fulfill their own well-being. In the last part of the Podcast they revisit their discussion about national health insurance after some listeners ask some very pointed questions about the politics of compassion and entitlement.

Brad comes back from vacation a bit riled up about what lies behind our national rancor over nationalized health care and Wayne quotes a few of dead guys from stuff he’s been reading lately to shed some perspective on the brokenness of our culture and our human attempts to remedy it. Our political leaders are creating a culture of entitlement to foster people’s dependency on the state and to solidify their political power and ambitions. At the core of this struggle is the fact that human nature craves its own expedience at the expense of a common good, and if we don’t let God change that there is no hope of community or personal freedom.

Wayne and Brad catch up with some listener email and find themselves contemplating the wonder of real community when followers of Jesus find each other and encourage each other to live in the light, without manipulating or trying to fix each other. They talk about the power of fear to sidetrack that reality and end up asking the question whether or not the church is the source of God’s life among people, or whether it is the fruit of people already drawing from God as their source. If you want to watch Fester S. Koots yourself, try this YouTube link.

Wayne and Brad are back from the International Christian Retailing Show with some questions and concerns about the intersection of the gospel and economics in our day. Fed by a listener’s question about whether we making the gospel a commodity by hiring pastors to teach what we want to hear, their conversation takes an interesting detour through the conflicts between God desires and Mammon’s demands, the overwhelming need for the systems we create to be fed by our hard work and resource, the mistaken notion that we have to figure it out before we can follow him, and the difference between grabbing all we can get and living inside the Father’s generosity.

Wayne and Brad are in Denver with the authors of Truefaced: Trust God and Others With Who You Really Are, Bill Thrall, Bruce McNicol and John Lynch, for a conversation about the wonder of living in grace-based relationships. We all seek a safe place where we can be known for who we are and loved as we encourage each other along the journey of being transformed by God. They talk about the value of that community and fighting for relationships first when misunderstanding and pain sets in. Bill, Bruce and John are also the authors of Bo’s Cafe, a new title being released this September by Windblown Media. You can find out more about our guests at their website.

Some listener feedback from the parenting podcasts start Brad and Wayne off by revisiting that topic, but they soon push on with other listener email to discuss how it is that people learn to live inside of the Father’s love. Learning to live loved is not a doctrine we have to be convinced of, nor a discipline we can achieve; it is a reality we relax into. That’s what Jesus wanted his disciples to know, to live by what Father gives, instead of always trying to get from him what we think we need. The blog and audio clip Wayne refers to during the podcast can be found here: Relaxing Into a Life Live Loved. You can also you can check out the new Freedom Slingers, a graphic contributed by someone who spends way too much time on Photoshop! And yes, this is a joke, you cannot order any action figures!

Wayne’s read a new book and can’t resist sharing it with Brad. Though not a Christian title, per se, Mistakes Were Made (but not by me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts, is an exploration of how human relationships are destroyed by our own need to be right. Self-justification is the process were by we excuse our own failures and turn on others instead of living in honesty and compassion. If we do not maintain a love for the truth, even when it costs us, we only set ourselves up to love deceived and isolated from others. It’s a great read!

Finally Brad and Wayne have a chance to catch up with all the email and traveling they’ve been doing over the past few months. They begin by rehashing some of the conversation about parenting in the previous two podcasts, then talk about some of the lessons and joys in their travels, the joy of relationship they celebrated on Father’s Day, and some of the things that have been touching their lives these days. At the heart of it all seemed to be the recurring theme that all of us do well to treasure those things that matter most and not get lost in the issues that don’t.

Danny and Sheri Silk are back for part two of their discussion with Wayne and Brad about the challenges and joys of raising children in grace. Danny is author of Loving or Kids on Purpose and they talk about some of the specific questions sent in by many of our listeners about discipline, manipulation and sharing healthy relationships. Throughout the application of this framework of putting relationship above conformity also helps illumine our relationship with God and with others. You can find more of their resources at their website, Loving on Purpose and a website they refer to frequently, Love and Logic, which provides added resources for parents and teachers to raise responsible children.

In this special edition of The God Journey, Wayne and Brad are joined by Danny and Sheri Silk as they share about the challenges and joys of raising children in grace. Danny is author of Loving or Kids on Purpose and they talk about some of the specific questions sent in by many of our listeners about spanking, building a culture of honor and discipline choices in dealing with our children. Throughout the application of this framework of putting relationship above conformity also helps illumine our relationship with God and with others. You can find more of their resources at their website, Loving on Purpose and a website they refer to frequently, Love and Logic, which provides added resources for parents and teachers to raise responsible children.

Wayne is back from vacation and Brad has skipped town, so Wayne’s wife, Sara, joins him for a listener question about the role of commitment in marriage and church life. How important is commitment to a growing relationship? Do people check out of relationships too easily, instead of growing through the difficulties that challenge their selfishness? If we want to feast on the thrilling fruits of long-term relationships we have to let God change us even as we respect the work he’s doing in others. Here’s a picture of the lava flow we spotted from the air. It’s probably a mile and a half to two miles long.

Sara brings in a plateful of her fresh-out-of-the-oven, famous chocolate chip cookies and Wayne and Brad enjoy the feast while talking about the difference between the truth of a recipe and tasting the reality of what the recipe makes. If we focus on the recipe as an end in itself, we get caught in endless discussions about the ingredients, arguing about their worth and labeling others so that we can be dismiss the importance of relating to them as individuals. They also follow up on ultimate reconciliation and the danger of shaping our theology to address our fears, instead of finding our comfort in the character of God.

A request from a reader asking Brad and Wayne to help them read Scripture without the religious glasses that lead to distorting the simple story of God’s love and redemption, spark a discussion about reading the Bible through the lens of Jesus Christ and embracing its value. Also they hear from a former pastor who finally arrived at the end of his rope, which turns out to be exactly the place where he could best see and embrace the work of God in his world. The podcast is up, but we’ve had problems with our home page and will fix it ASAP. Sorry for the inconvenience.

With a plethora of Christianity-related stories in the news, Brad and Wayne find themselves talking about Obama’s Notre Dame speech on abortion, the evangelical support for torture and how God makes himself known in our culture. Why don’t believers live more with the fragrance of Father as they engage the culture, rather than the smell of fear and control? Whenever we trade our passion for the revelation of Christ to fight for a principle, we’ll lose our connection with the culture. And if you’d like to help the brothers and sisters in Kenya, you can find out more at and links to donate at Wayne’s <a href="http://lifestream.org/blog/2009/05/08/starvation-in-kenya/">Lifestream blog</a>.

Following up on their discussion of ultimate reconciliation with letters from readers, Brad and Wayne find themselves focusing on the problems a religious mindset creates for those who want to live on the simple relational journey of knowing Christ Jesus. They talk about theological precision, rule-keeping and how easily those who live by religion end up feeling like they are a privileged class with God for all their effort and hold in contempt anyone not working as hard as they are to try to be good. Losing our religion seems an important step to embracing his reality. And if you’d like to help the brothers and sisters in Kenya, you can find out more at and links to donate at Wayne’s Lifestream blog.

Wayne and Brad plow through a potpourri of topics that listeners have recently asked about. They start with a delightful story about how God’s gifts can frustrate us in the early stages, but only because God is preparing for the growth he is working in us. They talk about spiritual warfare and why they don’t seem to talk a lot about the devil. Then they climb on the third rail of Christianity today by probing the reality of hell and the possibility of ultimate reconciliation. In doing so they discover once again that God wants to invite us into his reality, not answer all of our questions about things we cannot see from our current vantage point.

Wayne is back from a delightful trip to Indiana and plowing through the mailbag with Brad they find some interesting letters about holiness and the parenting book they talked about in the previous podcast. Throughout they keep coming back to a familiar theme—everything we can access in this age will be a bit of a mixed bag, in some of it we’ll hear the voice of the Shepherd and in some of it the flesh of men and women. But he lives in each of us so that our pursuit is never dependent on following another person or program, but him and him alone.

Wayne has found a new book on parenting in grace and can’t wait to share it with Brad. Loving our Kids on Purpose by Danny Silk not only gives a framework for parenting children, whether they are toddlers or adults, but it also gives some wonderful insights into how God disciplines his children in his love to help us live free from the bondage of sin. Joining them in the studio is their good friend Mick Silva, who appeared on a previous podcast. He was visiting LA and as a young father joined Brad and Wayne for their discussion. Not only will this book give you a framework for parenting children, whether they are toddlers or adults, it also gives some wonderful insights into how God disciplines us out of love to set us free from the bondage of sin.

The mailbag is full as Wayne and Brad come back from Easter. And what letters they are, too, as people share from their own journeys the surprising changes they are recognizing in themselves as a result of living loved and loving others. Finding freedom from changing others allows us to love them where they are and hopefully open a door to God’s life for them. Not needing to validate our own views, we can focus on the relationship instead of how we’re being perceived. And, then, the re-visit last week’s discussion on the cross through more listener email.

On this Good Friday Brad and Wayne talk about a growing doctrinal feud over the crucifixion of Jesus. Those who advocate for the view often called penal substitution, see the cross as God expending his wrath on the Son as a stand-in for the punishment we deserved and by doing so satisfying his demand for holiness. Many of them are now claiming that this view is so central to the Christian faith that those who do not embrace it are not truly Christian. But there is a growing voice that sees the cross as God expending his wrath on our sin and shame that Jesus held in his being, to effect a cure for broken and fallen humanity, and by doing so satisfies his love and holiness to bring us back into a valuable relationship with him. That view doesn’t negate substitutionary atonement but embraces it in its fullest meaning.

Following up their “Is Christianity Collapsing“, Brad and Wayne discuss an interesting column written by Tom Ehrich, an Episcopal priest, entitled Saying No to Sundays. It offers an honest and generous look at those who no longer find the Sunday morning ritual a part of their connection to the body of Christ. Then they read a letter from a God Journey listener from South Africa that gives a remarkable look a the process and fruit of the transformation that only God can accomplish. It demonstrates wonderfully how God so transforms us from the inside out that we no longer need to consciously try to be used by God, but simply live in the overflow of his love for us. Also, for those interested, our fourth Archive Disc is now available, covering December 2007 through November 2008. The cost is $12.00 and you can order it order it here.

Who’s in? Who’s out? Who cares? Christianity has been all over the news lately as many are predicting the impending collapse of Christianity as we know it. People are leaving institutions in droves; fewer people identify themselves as Christians, pastors and parishoners are leaving congregations in droves, and evangelicalism is increasingly seen as an outdated political philosophy. What these observers may be missing is the larger shift from people who are weary of practicing Christianity as a religion and are instead learning how to be followers of Christ. Maybe all of this opens a wider opportunity for God to make himself known in people who simply follow him, rather than in the weaknesses and excesses of Christianity as a religion. Some of the resources referred to on this podcast include: Newsweek Article on Christianity, Statistics on Pastors,, and The Coming Evangelical Collapse. To take THE SHACK Reader Survey, being conducted by a doctoral candidate at Regent University, please click here.

Brad and Wayne discuss David Wilkerson’s open letter of impending calamity on the United States that is making the rounds these days and then take a humorous look at how our own efforts to know God better might look to God. Then they settle into a discussion about the changes in relationship that happen when you move from a performance-based approach to the faith, to living in the certainty of the Father’s affection. What do we do when some of our valuable friendships whither up in the face of our transformation, and how do we find new friendships that will give us companionship on the journey?

A trip through the mail bag lends us the voices of a solider in Afghanistan, a young girl in Canada, an honest man California and a congregation in Tennessee, as they sort through their God Journeys. And then Brad and Wayne take on one of their most often-asked questions: “Are you saying there is no structure to the body of Christ?” Not at all. Structure is a valuable asset when it is designed to facilitate what God’s doing in our lives, and an incredibly damaging substitute when it only seeks to replace it.

After some reader feedback from our No Man (or Woman) is an Island podcast, Brad and Wayne find themselves in a discussion base on Romans 11:22 about the kindness and severity of God. Many people misunderstand the reality of the loving Father as just a God who is nice all the time. What about God’s severity? God is not just love, he is also light. Understanding that will change our view of righteousness from an onerous obligation, to one of the most incredible offers God makes to us. Knowing and loving him, who wouldn’t want to be like him?

Wayne and Brad follow-up on last week’s podcast about ‘Stop Doing’ by delving further into Romans (10:9-10, and 12:1-4) and incorporating some of the Forum discussion about the disciplines, especially fasting. What is the difference between doing something in an attempt to earn a relationship, or responding to a relationship by doing what God puts on our hearts. Along the way they also discuss the challenge of living generously in a world that is all about people maximizing their own portion.

Wayne and Brad are back from New York City and share from their experiences there as well as plow through the email that has come in from recent podcasts. One of the recurring themes revolves around the classic question: I want to learn to live loved, but what do I do? Their musings take them to Romans 4, and Paul’s central argument about the righteousness that doesn’t come through human effort, but only through a growing trust in God’s ability to do in us what we cannot do for ourselves.

Brad and Wayne read through some excerpts from Thomas Merton’s No Man Is An Island, which were quoted on Wayne’s Blog a couple of weeks ago. In these stirring passages Merton talks about our fears that no one will love us and how they rob us of the beauty of relationships because we can no longer simply be who we are, but must resort to pretense in the desperate attempt to get others to love us. There is not a more poignant commentary on why most people have never tasted of the richness of sincere relationships with others. Then answer? Discovering how loved we are by God, even in the face of our brokenness and failures, so that we can live in his grace instead of our fears.

Trying to follow God through the opportunities and unfolding circumstances of our lives can be confusing. It can also be incredibly frustrating when you think you know what God wants you to do, but have no clear means as to fulfill it. Brad and Wayne talk about the adventure of learning to listen to God and our our visions and hopes mingle with the real, unfolding circumstances of our lives. Learning to follow him is a process and God uses so many pieces to make the way clear for us. He just doesn’t want to tell us what to do, but wants to show us how he wants to bring it to fruition as well.

The Bible offers strange language to those who live in the midst of suffering: “Consider it all joy.” But isn’t it far easier to consider it all yukky and even wonder whether or not God truly loves us? Wayne and Brad talk about their times of suffering and how to let God work in such times in ways that transform our lives. In response to a question on the God Journey Forum they also discuss the apparent difficulty of finding older brothers and sisters who can help when we struggle in our own journey.

Wayne has moved and is a bit overwhelmed with a fried hard drive and a not a little torqued by ongoing government sell-out to the Wall Street bankers. Brad helps him through all of that and through some listener email they focus on how brothers and sisters can share life together with grace. It isn’t something we can create, but we can recognize it and participate in it as God brings it into our lives. This life is lived best as we celebrate what God gives, rather than trying to get God to give us what he wants. [The book Wayne recommends on the podcast (pictures at left) is TThe Jesus Storybook Bible by Sally Lloyd-Jones and illustrations by Jago.]

Brad and Wayne continue the discussion on left-handed power, interacting with some of the comments posted on The God Journey Forum. How do you live without the quest for power, can easily make you a sitting duck for those who will exploit those who live in such freedom? The true joys of Christian community are discovered where people are not trying to use each other, or manipulate each other for their own gain, but when they encourage each other on a journey that is transforming. The life of the cross, living left-handed pretend, the church at Laodicea community