The Upside Down Leader

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Dr. Max Klau, creator of the Answering the Call program for the New Politics Academy, for a conversation that helped shape the ideas behind both the book and this podcast. Max has spent decades helping leaders wrestle with identity, ambition, ego, and purpose. In this episode, he shares the origins of the leadership framework behind Answering the Call, the role shadow work plays in leadership development, and why inner work is essential for anyone who wants to lead with integrity. Together, Billy and Max explore the tension between mission and shadow, the courage required to confront the darker parts of ourselves, and how unexamined shadow can quietly drive behavior, distort our judgment, and shape the systems we create. Max reflects on the early experiences that introduced him to shadow work, the resistance leaders often feel when confronting it, and why naming the shadow gives leaders the language to understand what has been operating beneath the surface for years. The conversation is both philosophical and practical, offering a powerful reminder that leadership is not just about strategy or results. It is about wholeness. When leaders learn to recognize and work skillfully with their shadow, they become more grounded, more self-aware, and far more capable of bringing their mission into the world.

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Alyssia Palacios-Woods, Executive Director of Capital IDEA and a longtime community leader in Central Texas, for a thoughtful conversation about the unique weight of leading in service to others. With more than 15 years in workforce development and nonprofit leadership, Alyssia shares what it means to represent not just an organization, but an entire community. Together, they explore how pressure can quietly shift responsibility into over-responsibility, leading leaders to internalize decisions, absorb emotional labor, and isolate when the stakes are high. Alyssia reflects on leadership during the pandemic, the mental weight of constant decision-making, and how self-doubt and control can surface even in values-driven leaders. The conversation also touches on lessons from competitive tennis, parenting teenagers, and the importance of surrounding yourself with trusted advisors who help you stay grounded. Ultimately, Alyssia reminds us that leadership grows over time, and that leading from the light means anchoring decisions in both values and care for people.

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Sylvester Williams, former NFL defensive tackle, first-round draft pick, and Super Bowl 50 champion with the Denver Broncos, for a powerful conversation about identity, pressure, and what happens when strength turns into survival mode. Sylvester reflects on growing up in poverty, being held back and kicked out of school, and the turning point that forced him to lead himself before he could ever lead others. He shares how his father shaped his leadership philosophy, the weight of tying identity to performance, and the depression he experienced after retiring from football. Together, they explore ego, adaptability, the need for coaches over cheerleaders, and why leadership must be earned, not assigned. This episode is a grounded reminder that survival may build resilience, but reinvention builds legacy. When leadership is rooted in impact, accountability, and generational change, the light becomes stronger than the pressure.

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Dr. Kurt Senske, founder of CEO Board Services and former CEO of Upbring, for an honest conversation about leadership under sustained pressure. With more than two decades leading mission-driven organizations, Kurt shares what it means to carry responsibility when the stakes are high and people are counting on you. Together, they explore how stress subtly reshapes a leader, first through overwork and hyper-focus, then through cynicism, sarcasm, unhealthy habits, and isolation. Kurt reflects on seasons of self-doubt, bad hires, external crises like Hurricane Katrina, and even receiving "CEO of the Year" while privately feeling like a fraud. The conversation dives into board relationships, the increasing complexity of executive leadership, and the importance of accountability partners who can call you back into alignment. This episode is a grounded reminder that leadership isn't about accolades or endurance. It's about clarity, integrity, and building habits that keep you from drifting too long into the Upside Down.

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Emily Cherniack, founder and CEO of New Politics, for a candid conversation about power, purpose, and the tension of leading in the political arena. Emily shares her journey as a reluctant founder who never sought the spotlight but stepped forward when no one else would. Together, they explore what servant leadership looks like in a space often driven by ego, ambition, and control. As they enter the Upside Down, Emily names her own shadow, defensiveness, jealousy, competition, and isolation, and reflects on how scarcity thinking and pressure can distort even the most mission-driven leaders. She opens up about navigating leadership while becoming a mother during the pandemic, the cost of staying centered, and the long game of building leaders who are incorruptible in a system built around power. The episode is a grounded reminder that naming the shadow isn't weakness, it's preparation. Especially in politics, where the stakes are high and the darkness is real.

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Marco Clark, President of Holy Cross College at Notre Dame, for a deeply reflective conversation about purpose, calling, and the unseen weight of mission-driven leadership. Drawing from his journey in higher education, coaching, and faith-based formation, Marco shares what it looks like to lead when the work is bigger than personal ambition and success. Together, they explore how pressure can quietly pull leaders out of alignment, how detachment and control can surface in the shadow, and why neglecting self-care often accelerates the drift into the Upside Down. Marco speaks candidly about losing trust, withdrawing from people, and the discipline required to return to clarity through prayer, quiet reflection, mentorship, and intentional pause. The conversation offers a grounded look at leadership rooted in service, humility, and hope, and closes with a reminder that leading from the light means empowering others, even when the responsibility feels heavy.

In this episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with Yuen Yung, co-founder and managing partner of Hal Bar Partners, for a thoughtful conversation about leadership under pressure and the subtle ways the shadow shows up over time. Drawing from a career that spans real estate, entrepreneurship, and high-stakes decision-making, Yuen reflects on how power, control, and ego can quietly creep into leadership, especially during seasons of growth and success. Together, they explore situational leadership, the cost of isolation, and why maturity often reshapes how the Upside Down looks at different stages of life. Yuen shares candid insights on the moments that pulled him off course, the relationships that helped bring him back, and what it means to lead from influence rather than force. The conversation closes with practical wisdom for leaders who feel stuck in the dark and a clear reminder that leadership, at its best, is about making things better one small choice at a time.

In the first episode of The Upside Down Leader, Billy Moyer sits down with his spouse Ashley Alaniz-Moyer, Executive Director of Hispanic Scholarship consortium and coFounder of Refuerzo Collaborative, for an honest conversation about shadow work. Together, they explore what their initial thoughts on shadow work, how they have used it in practice as facilitators of New Politics' Answering The Call program. Ashley shares her own personal shadow mission, what its like for her in the Upside Down, and what it looks like to move toward clarity, purpose, and more grounded leadership.