027: F.L.O.S.S. (Frugal Lucrative Open Source Software)

So we stopped discussing news, huh? It seems like... Yeah, well, remember when we used to talk about the news? And there were two reasons we stopped.

One was because it was state delayed for like two weeks, but the other was because it's just too damn depressing. Yeah, it was really depressing, and we also seemed to, like, cause events to happen. Yeah, there was like some causal effect between us, like, talking about the exact same thing happened, and the next week was like, oh, hold my beer. Yeah, there was like, it was like earthquakes and fires and, you know, shootings and...

It just kept going. We were like, all right, maybe we shouldn't talk about this. I don't know that theory has really worked, but, you know, it's definitely something I think we just put behind us. So for any of you that are wondering where the heck the news went, sorry.

Yeah, I think it got to the point where it was... We would talk about it, and it would just set the tone of the podcast in a really depressing way, right? Because we were never talking about the fun things. It was always the not so fun things.

But I think if anyone wants to use that, like, let us know, but I think it's better just for us to talk about the fun, loving text stuff, because it's almost like a escapism for, I hope, for a lot of people. So I think that's what we'll stick to. But yeah, if anyone's wondering, that's why it's gone. Yeah, people in the chat room are saying we should call it the thoughts and prayers, you know, for those in Florida.

And I don't really know that we want to go down that that's such a lip service statement that I think we've used before. Well, and that was the other thing too, right? I mean, we can say all these things, but it's hard for us to have like, I don't want to say hard to have genuine empathy, but it's hard to express genuine empathy for something over a medium voice, right? Where we're just an audio, it's very hard for us to convey some form of, you know, just kind of meeting potato discussion about something without getting into just a bunch of just really kind of dark places and, you know, political places, things that are better suited for like a public forum, rather than just, you know, two guys talking to each other to the world, right?

Like we share opinions about tech, which is one thing, but when we're talking about something that affects everyone, that's another thing. So yeah, the thoughts and prayers thing, you know, that's everyone's go to, but I didn't want to just have some form simply that's like, hey, thoughts and prayers to you guys out there, like, can I imagine how that would feel, right? But I mean, it goes without saying that, obviously everyone affected by this, you know, they're, you know, their families and their troubles, like they're all in everyone's minds, right? And the big thing now is like, what do we do, right?

Like, how do we prevent this from happening? And I don't know, this is why we stop talking about news because I didn't want to even talk about this stuff, and we're here, we are talking about it, but it's just, how do we learn from our mistakes? And I think that's something that, thoughts and prayers, it doesn't fix, right? Thoughts and prayers is one thing, right?

That's, sure, that's step one, let's say, but what do we do next? That's what we have to talk about. Yeah, we're very forward thinking on this podcast. It's, it's, we don't want to dwell on the past, but I mean, we don't want to forget those, but we definitely don't want to dwell on the past.

We need to look forward and, you know, hopefully change will happen. So, anyway, let's move on. So, Patagonia is having a sale this weekend. This is like the randomest intro topic I think I've ever seen with that, but it has a little bit of a backstory because while I was visiting Adam, I went to the Patagonia outlet, and I picked up a couple of jackets of, you know, a couple of new jackets to me.

I didn't own any Patagonia gear, and I copied Adam, and bought pretty much the same jacket, E.S. But Adam, did you take advantage of the Patagonia sale this weekend? Yeah, we just say that it's a theme that, like, I tell you about something cool, then you just like jump right on that train. I mean, I feel like, you know, first it was, it was YNAB and then it was Patagonia, but yeah, like, I guess, you know, it's a compliment in a way, but you definitely just hop on whatever I was doing.

But yeah, Patagonia has a sale, I put that in there, because this is the lighter side of news. This is stuff that is important to everybody, right? So, yeah, they're having their winter sales, so everything is heavily discounted. So, I definitely took advantage of the sale, in the sense that I have a bunch of people in my house, and when something is 50% off, something that's already atrociously expensive, like, sure, why not?

Like, this makes it kind of reasonably expensive. So, I did buy some shorts, Lou, and I'm wondering if you can guess how much I paid for my pair of shorts? I'm guessing no more than like $35. Wow, $35 is too expensive.

Okay, so you paid like 20 bucks? Yep, $20. Yes. That's a reasonable amount for a pair of shorts, right?

Well, I have three pairs, for the price of one pair of your Lululee mall, short. I love how you put like tons of accents in it. There's no accents in it. I feel like there should be like 18, if you're paying three times.

There's gotta be at least, you know, an accent for every multiplier, so since it costs three times as much as much as they have, there's gotta be three different accents in there. It doesn't work like that. It just, because it's called Tiffany's, it doesn't mean it's, you know, it doesn't have any accents, so it can't be 20 grand for this one ring. It's Kefanis, you know that?

It's Kefanis, New York. Yeah, so the Patagonia sale, I mean it's cool that they're having sale, that's definitely dandy. I think the base thing for me about Patagonia was, I was never really exposed to it. Southern California isn't really known for being like the jacket capital of the world or anything, you know, we rarely need them, but I am, I'm very attracted to the idea of having to buy something once and not pay for it again, if that makes sense.

And like, you can kind of sell me on a lot of items in life if you tell me, you know, hey, it's going to last a very long time. And so that's, I think the big winner for me about that. I'm actually not using YNAB, so that's something that I never paid for it. But- You can use my referral link?

Nope, nope. So, you know, you got me on Patagonia, but you didn't get me on that YNAB, so. So we'll see. You know, it's something that I could come back to YNAB, don't get me wrong, it's not, I'm not against it 100%.

It's a good looking app, but Patagonia, I mean, there's no reasonable place to try it on, anywhere around here. There's an outlet in Cardiff. An outlet? Or a Patagonia store in Cardiff?

Oh, okay, well, yeah, I don't go to Cardiff. Cardiff definitely. You don't go to the beach. White-pasty legs, Luke doesn't go to the beach.

Nope, you can probably guess that. Yeah, so I don't go to Cardiff. Also, Cardiff sounds way too high-end already. I don't think I've ever been there, but it sounds like where the Lulu-Lemong should be with all the accents.

In Cardiff? Yeah, yeah, somebody accents in Cardiff. Sounds like there's rich people's feel. So I can agree with you and align with you on the buying something, you know, once or buying something that you know, was going to last a long time.

And definitely Patagonia is that for me, right? Like, hey, I'm going to buy this and this should last me a very, very, very long time to the point where I don't possibly even need to buy another one of these in my lifetime, which is the best thing. And also repair clothes too, so something's broken. You take it in there, they'll repair it.

So they kind of have the same thing as like your warranty on your leggings or whatever it was that you were Hillary brought in. But on the subject of that, like I would love Patagonia like sponsor the podcast. Like that would be awesome. That would be amazing.

Yeah, I could go for some Patagonia discounts or swagger, you know, I could rock that. I think I'd be fine. I mean, like you don't even have to tailor it just to me. Like give me all like the hand-me-downs from like last season.

I don't even care. So but speaking of the buy me once, like have you ever been to the website buy me once? No, I don't think I have. What is this?

Yeah, buy me once.com is a website which is basically a collection of just a list of all the products that have lifetime warranties on them. So like you can go to kitchenware, you can go to like men stuff, women stuff, electric stuff. And it has everything that has a lifetime warranty. So when you look at that, it's like, hey, these backpacks have a lifetime warranty.

So if something happens, then you can take it in and they will fix it. Or it's all these products that are basically meant to only be bought once and then just be renewed and stuff after that were repaired or warranty. So it's kind of a nice little side if you ever are curious to say like, okay, well, let's see what, you know, rain boots are going to give me a longer ability or a how do I want to say a lifetime warranty? That's cool.

Yeah, I'll have to look into this a little bit more. It seems like an interesting idea and definitely something I'm a fan of. So I can get behind the whole like pay more if it's actually going to last kind of thing. I honestly think some of that came into play more with some of my like earliest like suits and stuff like that.

They like spent more money than the average person on a suit and the suits have lasted. And if I ever had a problem with them, I took them in and they fixed them, changed them, did it, it did it, and you do it, you know, it was easy. So I think that's where I first got behind it but I plan to stay behind it, that's for sure. So following up on last week though, one thing we kind of totally graced over or should have talked about is a dick fix.

I don't think there's really any beating around the bush here, dad joke. Literally, oh my gosh, that was bad. That was just for you. Beating around the bush.

Actually, that was pretty good. Like I'll give you that one. Or as someone we both know calls it the dick selfie. That person is in the chat room right now so I don't need to name drop.

That just makes it too real, right? Like I don't like that. I can deal with dick fix. I can't deal with dick selfie.

I mean, because it's not holding the camera itself, right? You know, does it deal a selfie angle? Yeah, a selfie stick for dick fix. Like attaches to the base, you know, has a little telescoping arm.

How do you press the button though? When do you still have to use your hand to press the button? Oh, we can take this to the next level. What about 360 pictures?

You know, 360 dick fix where you can just send somebody the whole thing where they can like, you know, kind of VR, porn it around. You know, when they move their phone, they can see everything. Why do you guys just feel the need to like snap a picture and send it to whoever? That's a good damn question.

It's got to go back to like some primal instinct kind of thing. I gotta imagine. Final instinct? What?

You're saying like trying to be showy and like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole like guys are just want to show off kind of thing. I mean, that's definitely I feel like in guys blood way more than it's in a girl's blood.

But other animals take dick pics too. Here we observe the giraffe trying to take a dick dick. It's very hard for the giraffe because the cell phone doesn't move in the way that he would like it to. Yeah, I need some guy, what's the name?

Robert Attenborough or something like that? David Attenborough. David Attenborough, that's right. Here we observe a giraffe in the wild taking a dick pic.

Oh my God, it would like him narrating something like that would be great. Just super serious, right? I think like a Morgan Freeman voiceover will work too, right? Yeah, I mean, any of those guys that just have that like very slow, you know, I don't know, determined voice.

It's I don't know how to even wrap it up in one word, but their voice is just so, so good, so good. And to have such a comedic topic discussed would be good. Like you said, we forgot to bring it up because it is a growing trend in the dating world where it's like, here let me just now pick up my junk and send it to you, you know, to impress you, even though we never met in person, right? Or the first thing someone will say, like, said me nudes.

And it's like really guys like, don't do that. If someone's into you, they'll see it, you know, they'll see it later. They don't have to like do the big reveal before anything happens, right? Leave a little bit of the imagination.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know, cell phones and I get the whole idea that like we are much more media rich society today than we were what 40 years ago or something, you know, cameras have changed a lot, but I'm behind you with the whole like, let's not just share it with everybody. And we probably shouldn't be just sending it around. And it's probably for the best to leave at least that one piece behind the walled gardens of yourself and doesn't need it, you know, no one else needs to see that. And at least until you're in the bedroom.

Yeah, exactly. There's a place for that. It's funny. So bedroom and there's an act for that where you have to remove all your clothes, right?

So yeah, I mean, I get like no shame in it, but you just don't do it, like, especially in dating, right? Like, or like don't have that be your primary means of communication, you know? Yeah, it shouldn't start that way, not at all. So I think we can move on from the sobering topic of Dick's selfies to your blue bottle.

How's the coffee working on it? So yeah, I got my blue bottle mailed to me and I ordered a lot of coffee because I wanted that free shipping, god damn it. And I was only $8 away. So I was like, OK, well, I either paid $12 in shipping or I paid $8 more and I get free shipping.

So fine as we'll do that. So I froze half the coffee as per blue bottles instruction. And the other part I put into like my coffee container and I also got a sample pack which kind of had a bunch of selections of the coffee, just already pre-ground. So I was like, OK, well, let me try that.

So I'm a couple of brews in. I'd want to say like three brews in. And it's pretty good. I'm still waiting to try the coffee that I'm excited for.

I'm kind of saving that for the end, which is the one that I'm going to grind myself. It wasn't really included in the sample pack. But I'm just waiting to see that. I guess I'm still cautiously optimistic.

I've gone through a couple lighter roasts and we know from previous conversation I'm not a big fan of light roasts or blends. So it's good. I mean, it is better than just buying the coffee that I was buying before. So there's definitely a difference in quality there.

But I think grinding the coffee myself is definitely where I'm going to be able to control more of my process. So I'll probably keep this in next week's follow up as well, because I'll probably at least get out of the sample packs and into the real beans that I want to test. So we'll see. So is it fair to say that it's not knocking your socks off yet?

But you're just kind of, or you haven't found the one that's knocking your socks off yet? But it's good. Is that kind of what I'm getting? Yeah, the quality is much better.

So that's a definite noticeable trait right off the bat. But the problem is that I got the sample pack in the sample pack. There was only one or two that I wanted to try. And out of those, one or two, there were three other ones.

I'm like, OK, well, do I just throw these away? No, that's not who I am. That's not what I do. So I'll just get these out of the way first and see if there's anything that I might like magically love.

And I'm just working my way through that. But it's a definite increase in quality. I just think I have to find the right roast and right bean and just kind of the flavor profile that I'm looking for with this blue bottle kind of description, which is why I kind of ran the gamut in terms of different beans and different this, like step out of my comfort zone and try something new. And chat rooms asking how I prepare my coffee.

So I press my coffee. So I have just a French press, the cheapest one you can get on Amazon, the one that's most rated, most reviewed by Wirecutter recommended. So I just have one of those. And since I'm the only one who drinks coffee in my house, I have a little hand grinder.

So I hand grind my coffee and just put it in a French press and do that. So that's my little home chemistry experiments in the morning. But I used to do espresso like at work. And it got to the point where I was just paying the coffee shop, you know, too much money.

And this is at least, it's not espresso, but it's still good coffee. And it gets me through my bus ride in the morning. And that's all I really needed is to kind of jump start my day. I don't need to be addicted to coffee because I used to drink like six cups a day.

And that was really bad, especially with my family's history of hypertension. So I kind of had to lay off of that. And then hitting double triple shots of espresso in the morning also wasn't the best thing. So this is like a happy medium where I'm saving money, not consuming as much caffeine.

Just need a jump start in the morning. And this is definitely doing it for me. I enjoy doing it. It's something that you kind of like kind of a passion for.

I know we talked about last time too, right? Where you just kind of enjoy the process of making coffee or experimenting with coffee. And that's kind of what I'm rolling through right now. Cool.

Well, it's sounds like it's a work in progress. So I look forward to more follow up next week. So you also figured out the macOS IPV6 woes you were having last week. What more do you have to add to this issue?

Yeah. So last week, I was kind of like hot on the heels of getting frustrated that IPV6 was not working on my macOS Mac mini that was running macOS server. So I just kind of fresh off of that, which is why I was kind of heated. I was like, I'm not happy about this.

Like I just spent this time troubleshooting something that I should have had to troubleshoot and dug into it a little bit more. And come to find out that it was the network access that I had. So since I had a custom network access, it was just always preferring IPV4. So once I went into there and tweaked it, then magically IPV6 came up, started working.

And I'm all back in business. Everything's working. Everything's good. Everyone's happy.

Adam figured it out. And he was like, oh, man, I have to text a little about this. Like, hey, I figured it out. We need to talk about it next week.

So it was one of those things where talking about something right after it happens, you're always frustrated. And then once you've had enough time to clear your head and go back and look at the problem, like, rationally, you're just like, OK, that's it. OK, cool. I fixed it.

Now we're done. We can move on with our lives. Good. Those problems are great.

I don't know why, but the how you get after solving a problem like that, because you get so frustrated in the moment. I mean, that happened a lot for me in college. A lot of my homework sets were like two questions. So you'd work on it for an hour or something, and you wouldn't even be through it.

You'd walk away from it, come back in 10 minutes once you're back. You're through the whole thing. So I know what that's like. And that's really satisfying when it's done.

Yep. So anyone out there who's having problems with IPv6 on Mac OS Server just make sure that your network access is set correctly, because mine was only set to IPv4 networks. So I just set it to my private network range, which only preferred IPv4. So once I switched that to all networks, it was a little more open.

But I just walked down the ports on the router a little bit more. And everyone's happy. Very cool. All right.

So this week's episode is another one where basically, I'm going to interrogate Adam. Adam's going to re-raid me on open source software. Isn't that just the show at this point? Pretty much.

I mean, I feel like that should be like Tag1. Lou interviews Adam and Adam berates Lou. Pretty much. It just goes around like that for about two hours.

And then we start stop recording. And we do it again next week, right? Yeah. Especially when you don't do the homework.

So Adam, what is Floss? So yeah, this week, we're talking about open source software, or Floss, which is freely, right open source software. So Floss is basically any software where the source code is freely contributed to and freely available for anyone who wants to see it, contribute to it, with some stipulations. And then we'll talk about it a little bit.

But basically, it's pulling the curtain, letting you see into just the nuts and bolts of software that you would run, and being able to basically review that code at any given time, right? It's almost like the way I think it was like a car, right? Let's say you're given a car, and then there's a lock under the hood where you can't look under the hood. They don't give you a manual to tell you what's under the hood, or how you can tweak things.

Or computers on cars are usually locked down. But open source is basically like, hey, we set up a computer this way. Here's how we did it. Here's all the stuff that we did.

And whatever you want to do, feel free. You can do it. You want to make your own thing based off of this. Like, go ahead.

Have fun. You want to give us some feedback and maybe change some stuff or point something out that we did wrong. Like, hey, awesome. Let us know.

So it's just kind of a more, as its terms as open way, to contribute to your software source code. Got it. So I guess first question, Adam. Can you, is there a difference where you either change the code yourself, or is it always you're just pointing out the error to the organization that is still managing and contributing to the actual code?

So since most of these places will post their source code online, it means you can download that source code, and you can compile it yourself. I mean, once you have the raw source, like, yeah, you can go in there, and you can modify files. You can add features. You can add sections of code.

You can change sections of code. You can do whatever you want. And you can compile it yourself. But only you will have that version.

Right? So yes, you can absolutely modify it, and then recompile the code, and then boom, you have your own custom working version of this software. Or if you want to fork it to a totally different version, you can do that as well. But to pull into the original project, right?

This is where the licensing kind of comes in. This is where you have maintainers of a specific project is because there is some control that has to be done in terms of like, can't just have people willy-nilly got it. Very cool. So you did put in a couple of podcasts here that are good.

I actually haven't heard of these. I actually, I think I've briefly heard of the change log. But do you listen to Floss Weekly or the change log that you dropped in here, Adam? So I dropped them in there because they are definitely ones that I listened to.

So yeah, basically Floss Weekly, which is done off the Twitch network, which I'm not a huge fan of. But Randall Schwartz is a guy who leads out that one. And they had some really good guests on. They've had some really good episodes.

They had one with basically one of the founders of MySQL. And when he branched off and they formed MariaDB, it was all about his talking about how open source kind of shaped his life and how he wanted to contribute to this thing that was open, which is why they made it open source. And when he made MariaDB, that's what he wanted to do. And that's what he wanted to continue doing.

So it's been really good. And the change log, they have a bunch of up and coming sources or projects that come out. So there's both really good listens. If you want to get a feel for what's out there, because I think a lot of people, you included Lou, don't really realize how much there is out there that runs on open source and depends on open source.

Do you remember, I think it was last episode I talked about the mesh potato that was being used in villages to run everything? That's all open source. So the VoIP server that they run, everything that they're putting in this little mesh potato to run village networks and telecommunications, is all run in open source. So that's how I found out about it.

It was on Floss Weekly. Very cool. Yeah, when I just started listening to it not very long ago, and it's pretty new and it's infancy is command line heroes by Red Hat. And I've only listened to three episodes, but the first episode was all about Linux.

So I don't know where they're planning on taking that exactly, but it so far has been a pretty interesting listen as well. There's also IRL by Mozilla, which is a big open source proponent. So that's another good one too, which kind of just talks about internet life or the internet in real life. And it's hosted by Veronica Belmont.

And she's kind of a big name in text. She's been all over the gamut. So it's really good to listen to as well. So that was IRL by Mozilla.

Very cool. So going in a chronological order here, do you know a particular time that this sort of idea of, I guess, the earliest forms of it were probably just sharing software and multiple groups working together on projects in general. I'm not sure it really started as quote unquote, open source software. But when did you come up with this start item?

Because I know when I was doing a little research into this or trying to do my homework for this week's episode, the time frame I was coming up was really the 90s. And it was kind of really when the birth of the internet and internet started to come into homes that this idea started to become more widely available because you could actually post source code. But I'm kind of curious if you came up with a different time skill. Well, it sounds like you did the homework.

And I put in here, because you put this in the outline, like you were like, when did it start? Like, it looks like the 50s? Like, I don't know. And you're probably mentioning, yeah, and the 50s people collaborated with software, right?

We're going back and forth, back and forth. But I think the whole concept, like you said, of software just being open to a community and having whoever, they want to be able to submit contributions to the software or hold a source from anywhere. I think you said that kind of started in the 90s. So I think you have a better idea than I do.

Yeah, so I read a little bit into this. And it looks like if we're talking about open source software in the way that we are thinking of it today, I think it was really the 90s that this really started to take off. The model of open source can, I think, be argued much, much older in the sense that you mentioned something like the 50s and the 60s. And I think it can be argued that organizations that were big, you have to think of things like NASA, we're probably using some sort of internal open source software methodology that let anybody in the organization report a bug or a problem and get that to the person.

But that's not really widely sharing it publicly. So. Well, that's not open source, right? Exactly.

It's closed source and you have to be in the organization to access the source. So that's the very opposite of open source. That's closed source. Yeah, so that's where it's questionable.

If they were sharing it with other businesses and stuff, and that's why I said you said the 50s. I don't know that I would say that 100%. I'm sure the ideas of this sort of stuff are like external code reviews and stuff like that were coming on in those times. But that was like the earliest cracks in the idea of, maybe we should have somebody else look at this code other than just us.

But it really seems like the 90s was the take off. And then from the when to sort of what types of it are, there's different licensing as I understand it goes along with open source software. So can you tell me a little bit about the license types out of them? Because I'm not too familiar with the individual licenses.

I've heard of these names before. But in terms of the license itself, but I don't know what the legality is behind any of them, or even do you know the basics of what each one means, what I can and can't do with each of the types of licenses. That's basically outlined by the license itself. But different licenses will restrict the openness of the software in different ways.

So for example, in Apache license, you may be able to freely distribute this or recompile this or use this in any application business or otherwise. And other ones, MIT, let's say, might only be scheduled for educational research or this and that. Or you could use them in these applications, but it has to be for this. So it's mainly tailored to the purpose of what the application or the code is meant to do.

And it's just meant to make sure that all the right protections are in place so people don't abuse it. Because with open source, it's like, hey, anyone can use this. Well, we can just take this project and run this whole underground child, whatever, ring on this. Like, well, no, no, no, no, no.

Can't do that. Or you just can't take it and run with it and make millions of dollars. Or you're like, oh, well, this is a really cool open source software program. I'll just take it, repackage it myself, and sell it.

There are a bunch of stipulations there. And licensing just outlines how you can use that software, or how that software is meant to be distributed and meant to be contributed to. So on a very high level, that's all I know, because I've never really gotten into contributing to open source. I've definitely been a consumer of open source on a very large level.

But I've never really gotten into the contribution side of things. So as far as the licenses go there, I'm pretty naive to the intricacies of what happens. So I guess if that's my 50,000 foot view, and if I'm totally wrong, please correct me. All right, fair enough.

And that's kind of what I took it to be too. But I didn't know too much in this area. So I thank you for your little bit more knowledge than I have. So what are the, I guess there's from here, we kind of dive into the meat and potatoes of it.

But basically there's different operating systems that are free open source software that's out there. And some of these, I think, Adam, you probably have a lot of experience with some of these. But namely, what Unix and Linux, I'm sure you've used those. And have you used any others that come to mind and the list that you've written here in the document?

So I've used all the ones that I put in the list. So yeah, so when we talk about open source software, like you talked about what it is, and you talk about the licensing, and when did it start, all this kind of stuff. So now I guess we're getting into sort of examples of some common open source projects out there. So one of the ones out there is like, there are full operating systems kind of built on open source, right, and namely like kernels that are built on open source.

So I've used Unix and anyone who uses the Mac, like you're also using a form of Unix as well. And Linux, right, which is basically just Unix with a little bit of flavor, you know, put on it, just kind of another fork of our project. I've used various different flavors of Linux. So I've used previous D, I've used Red Hat, I've used CentOS, I've used Fedora, I've used Ubuntu, I've used Linux Mint, you know, I mean, there's tons of different flavors out there, which is kind of like the benefit of open source, right, is like they can tailor something for a particular user, right?

Much like we talked about, you know, last week, the internet kind of enabled people to connect with other like-minded individuals all over the world. The open source has kind of allowed people to build applications centered around the way that they want to work or the way that makes their workflows easier or prioritizes what they feel is important. So I've definitely, I went through a phase where I just wanted to try every Linux sister out there and I'll throw another website out there, which is DistroWatch. And DistroWatch basically just had the top Linux like, open source like operating systems out there, the ones that were new whenever they had like releases or anything different, like they had a really good breakdown of everything to do with open source.

So once I found out about virtualization, I was like, hey, you know what, like I'm just going to go hog wild here and set up, you know, 20 different virtual machines and spin them up and use how I want and just working there and kind of get a feel for how these things behave and what they do. So I've definitely kind of run the gamut on operating systems and tried a lot of them and we'll probably continue to try a lot of them. And most recently I tried SteamOS, which is, I believe built on, it's just built on Ubuntu. So it has a Ubuntu basically running and then it just runs to, you know, the Steam app and they run a bunch of stuff there, but SteamOS is what they use for their like, their gaming, their Steam PCs, which are just, you know, run of the mill PCs with high end graphics cards that run Ubuntu and custom drivers and then start up to a Steam interface and let you use controllers and stuff.

So it's, I guess that's the most reason one I've used. So I've used a lot of them. So the question now comes is Lou, have you heard of any of these? Have you used any of them?

What's going on? Yeah, so my experience is pretty frickin' limited here. But basically I took a class in college that was a very basic programming class. I took like two or three, but the one I did take, we used a little bit of Linux and it was packaged in some like educational like IDE kind of, you know, a program that you downloaded from the internet and this is kind of scraping the cobbles of my brain because I pretty much forgot everything that taught me in that class.

So I don't even know exactly what flavor it was, but it's something that I pretty much was taught and forgot because it really, so it was weird. It satisfied a, a GE that my degree didn't cover, but it was something I never had to use beyond that, which was kind of a bummer. And I never really took any like other courses that went further in that area. So I never really got to use it further.

I'm pretty sure I basically deleted the software at the computer as soon as the course was over and I was done. Oh, do. So I guess it's safe to say like, you don't really have a favorite that you use, right? Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to pick a favorite but I've only used one, right?

Yeah, and you don't even know which one you actually use. Yeah, pretty much. I'm, you know, there's a decent chance it was some offshoot of Ubuntu, but I don't know if, what exactly it even was. So it's anyone's guess at this point.

But I would be inclined to say that had I had at least two or three of these under my belt, I would have an opportunity to pick a favorite, but I probably shouldn't pick a favorite when I've only looked at one and don't even really remember it. So sad. I just feel like you're missing out on so much stuff and we'll kind of get into this a little more, but I don't know. Like it's the same thing.

Like I love banging my head against the wall until something works because that aha moment is great. And I love kind of trying like all these different things because you get to try some really crappy things to find like the really good thing. And then what you find the really good thing. Whoa, it's awesome.

It's just like my coffee analogy, right? Is like I'm trying all this coffee all this experimentation around brew times and coffee, you know, like courses of the grind and timings on this and that you'll find like the good coffee. And once I find it, I'm like, ooh, this is great, right? But yeah, I had to try all this stuff to get that, but I learned so much in that process that it just made the whole thing worthwhile.

So I mean, I asked you about your favorite. So I'll kind of throw mine out there. So my favorite for a long time has been CentOS, which is the community enterprise operating system. And basically all CentOS is a repackage of Red Hat.

And Red Hat is open source software, but you have to pay, or you had to pay in the past to get basically access to the ISO to run Red Hat, right? And you could find them everywhere, but you know, why bother when CentOS would just repackage everything. So CentOS was nice because it was a very stable operating system because like with anything open source and with Linux especially, is you have a bunch of people kind of trying to be on either the cutting edge or the bleeding edge. So when you run something like Fedora, which is also based on Red Hat's kernel, they run more on the bleeding edge.

So they're more like running experimental packages or experimental, you know, drivers or experimental kernel extensions and stuff. So they like to kind of be the cutting edge, the bleeding edge where this will be the future at some point in time or it will fall off a track, you know, who knows? But CentOS was a great way to be stable and also a way to kind of like prep for getting like your certifications, right? Because a long time ago I got Red Hat certified and Red Hat certified without actually really ever working in Red Hat because CentOS was there and you could do a majority of the learning that you would need to.

And then when you took your Red Hat certification, you were working in Red Hat but it was just like CentOS except the images changed and the wording changed and that was about it. So CentOS is definitely high on my favorites list and that was just more for learning. And that was like without using a GUI, anything like that. And then I like Ubuntu as well.

And that's probably the one that I go back to, just like for day to day use. Like if I had to use Linux, that would be the one that I use because it's very widely supported by a lot of people. And like even Dell, I think, you know, at one point was making their computers and pre-selling them with Ubuntu Ubuntu. So I mean, that's something that's something that one of the largest computer manufacturers is actually bundling this open source software with their computers.

So CentOS, Ubuntu, those are my two favs. Got it. So you mentioned that basically you discovered VMs and you basically just went hog-wild. So is it safe to say that you are still hog-wild about the VMs on your machine at them?

Or what is the status of like your VMs on your machine now? What do you do? I still have all my VMs from back in the day. So I still have a CentOS VM.

I still have a Ubuntu VM. Like I said, when I was experimenting with Steam OS, I put that in a VM. So I don't know, let me pull it up. I'll pull it up right now real-time follow up and see how many that I have.

And I'll just count them off. But I also had, like, I went by I had Android, you know, x86 Android running on in virtualization. So I had everything. I'd run Windows in virtualization, you know, which is a more common use.

So right now, as far as active virtual machines, one, two, three, four, five, six, I only have seven. It's not that bad. But that's seven actual like full-fledged virtual machines. I also use Docker, which is another way to spin up just virtual instances of Linux, but not let's say full-fledged operating systems per se, but more just like a very specific task.

Like, oh, I want to spin up a database, right? I want to spin up a MySQL database running in, you know, in Debian, or I want to spin up, you know, a web server, you know, just running this open-source package. Like, I can do that with Docker. So kind of Docker has been more what I've moved to, just for just like quick messing around with like more applications.

And if I need to like actually be living in a GUI or doing anything there, I'll use VirtualBox and, you know, dig into like a Ubuntu or a Fedora or something like that. Okay, cool. Well, thank you for the real-time follow up. That was helpful.

I was kind of curious what Hogwild really entailed, like I was actually expecting more than seven. So that's not as bad as I thought. These are all the ones that I had to re-import since I changed because I opened Paralos for a little while and that's what a lot of myself is running in. I'm pretty sure if I actually looked, and that's only one computer.

I also have VMs running on like the Mac Mini as well. They're kind of running other things. So there's, I'd have to check that one too and see because that one's got, once got, let's see. Oh, that one only has one in it.

That one's not that bad. I must have gotten rid of them. I must have went too clean up. But I mean, any given time is probably between eight and 10.

Okay, not too bad, not too bad. So I guess we should move on to some of the applications and frameworks that are open-source out there. So there's a ton in this area, but you know, there's WebKit, MySQL, and then I haven't even heard of this fourth one out, so you're gonna have to help me out there, but in the FFmpeg, I think it's the fifth one, I've heard briefly of that when I think. But what's that fourth one?

So I just started writing things down here because there's so many, and I put a link in the show to show you, yeah, there are tons and tons of open-source packages and software. MariaDB, which is what I was talking about earlier. So MySQL and the creators of MySQL, if you were familiar with MySQL, MySQL got bought by Sun at one point in time, and then Sun got bought by Oracle. So Sun, microsystems basically made everything open-source.

All of their projects are like, hey, you know what? So the open-source is awesome. We're just gonna kind of go all in on open-source, and all of our projects, everything that we do, we'll be open-source, so the community can use it, they can review it, they can do whatever. And it's obviously hard to make money when you give everything away for free.

So that was kind of, you know, the beginning of the end of Sun, and there were a bunch of other things that happened as to why Sun went down, but when Oracle bought up Sun, they bought up kind of like the rights to all of this software, right, because eventually at one point it was owned by Sun. So they took MySQL and Oracle, you know, they had their own database software, and kind of overnight once they bought Sun, they were in charge of, you know, the largest running database on the internet, right? MySQL was run everywhere. So the creators of MySQL basically left, they're like, we don't wanna be part of this.

And they forked the project, for to MySQL just basically took the code at a certain point in time where they're like, hey, it's open-source, we can fork it to whatever we want, and we can, you know, develop it here where we know we won't be tied to anything that Oracle wants to do with the software, and we can contribute to it however we want. So they formed MariaDB, and MariaDB is basically just a fork of MySQL, but MariaDB is considered more open than MySQL is because MySQL is still kind of under the guise of Oracle or under, you know, the watchful eye of Oracle, whereas MariaDB is truly open-source. Got it, okay, that makes a lot of sense. That's interesting.

You're totally right, there are tons of these. I mean, your link is definitely helpful, but you know, there's so many in this category, and I feel like where most of the growth is, is probably in this section of open-source. I don't know if you agree with me out there, Adam, but I feel like in, when we talk about OS or applications and frameworks and what we'll talk about later, development and programming, I feel like this is where we're seeing probably the most of the open-source projects. Well, this is the easiest way to kind of release open-source, right?

Like you don't have to know about running the kernel, you don't have to know about machine code, you don't have to know about a lot of things, right? You can build kind of that middleware where it's easy to build, like it's very much like it's hard to develop an OS, it's easier to develop just an application that runs on that OS, right? So it's easy to make a command line application, it's easy to slap a GUI on something, but yeah, this is where people get creative, right? They see a problem and they see a need to fix something, and they go and fix it, and they'll use it with open frameworks open like other open development, you know, work, and they'll release it to the world and say like, hey, you know, I made this, it solved my problem.

Hopefully it solves other people's problems too, and other people will contribute to it, add feedback, you know, whatever. So I think the reason that you see tons and tons is because this is the easiest place to kind of play in, right? It's the easiest space to play in. It's like you can make something and release it here, and everyone can see it, and everyone can work on it, and everyone can review your code, and everyone can give you feedback, and it's just kind of like a big collaborative, you know, fun time or a scary time, it really depends, but I think that's why you see the most growth there is because it is the easiest, like the lowest cost, you know, least very eventually to get into.

Yeah, that's totally, you know, fair to say. And, you know, I think you threw this in the notes here on it, but basically, you know, it's any major project coming out of any company that any tech company today is pretty much bound to have some degree of, you know, floss in it somewhere, you know, whether that company discloses that to you, or it's, you know, somewhere in an agreeor, you know, something like that, they're using it very likely somewhere in their development process for whatever application or OS that they're actually shipping. So, but I know you also put in here that you have a funny, personal work story from a previous employer, so what is this funny story? So yeah, so I used to work for a previous employer, and I worked in their IT department, and I worked there for a long time, and the IT director, and I, we didn't really see IT on a lot of things, so that kind of came to a head all at one point where, you know, we would get into like arguments at work, which is never a good thing, right?

You never need to be having an argument with your boss at work, that's never a thing. And I was a cocky little teenager at the time, you know, like 19, you know, early 20s, and I was like, I know more than anyone out there, like I am, you know, the best thing, I piss excellence, you know, like, which is all bullshit, but here I was, you know, thinking that I was the shit. So, basically, we had this falling out, and I was transferred from one department to another in this company, so I basically went from, you know, working IT to going to something more like sales and marketing. So, you know, a pretty big switch for me, where I love computers.

That was what I was going to school for, you know, I was going to school for computer science, like I loved messing around in things, like that's why I did my spare time, and then I'm, you know, thrust into the world of sales and marketing, which I know nothing about. And all the fun tools that I had in IT, right, like as far as like paid software that I had to work with, you know, vector editing software, graphics, anything there was all kind of stripped away, and they're like, hey, we need you to do this job. I'm like, okay, well, I don't have the tools to do this job anymore, right? Like, all these tools were kind of taken away.

Like, I don't have my nice pretty, you know, IDE, or I don't have my nice pretty vector editing program. I don't have my nice pretty image editor. So, I had to find a solution. I had to find a way to get work done.

And that was kind of when I jumped feet first into, you know, free open source software. So, I basically set up a five gig flash drive, or, you know, eight gig, whatever they had at the time, with a bunch of portable apps, basically a bunch of open source projects that were basically just meant to run off of this USB drive. And what I would do is I would come to work, and I would have my work machine, which is all locked down, you know, and since the IT director and I didn't really, you know, see the eye on a lot of things, I definitely kind of, you know, got a pretty crappy machine. And I didn't, you know, have all the cool things that I used to work on.

So, I'd run everything off this flash drive. So, basically I didn't have to install anything, I didn't have to do anything. And I ran all of my work off of this flash drive. And I basically would come in, I'd plug in this flash drive, I do all my work, and I was still able to do everything that I did without all the flashy bells and whistles of paying for, you know, $500 software.

I was still able to get all the sales and marketing material done, like, create all these manuals, create all these documents, do everything, create all these graphics, all these images, do everything I need to do off this one little flash drive. And I had a screenshot of it actually, that I'll post and I'll send it to you in chat. But yeah, I just ran everything off this flash drive. And it was so much fun.

And like I said, it was really, when you have a problem that you need to solve, you find a way to solve it. And free and open source software kind of just let me do that. And big thanks to that, because soon after that, I switched to employers as well. And the rest of that is, you know, kind of history for me.

So, it was a good way, it was a good sobering moment for me. And like I said, just really fostered my love for floss, you know? All right, yeah, I get the idea there. And like, I think, I've done something like this too, in the past where I was in a pinch.

And I was locked down and it's totally something if you would, I could see you doing. So that doesn't surprise me too much with you. But I have to say, only you would come up with something creative like this. Like I would be like, okay, I guess I lost the battle with my boss.

But you know, I get it, we were all 19 once and we pissed excellence, right? Yeah, that's a quote from a movie too. Probably didn't catch it though. Nope, definitely didn't catch it.

Ricky Bobby, no? Who's that? Alladigonites, Will Ferrell, no? Mm-mm, mm-mm, then catch it.

You can add that to the list for next year, buddy. I don't know, man. The list for next year was already made. I chose so many movies for 2018 that I had all the leftovers.

Like I already had enough for two years. You know, it's like that list is already there. It's just like, how do I prioritize now? Like the list is done.

Like the list for the next 20 years could be essentially done. Out of the day, like 2025, already? Yeah, exactly. It's just how do I prioritize?

Which ones I want you to see next year? It's like, and you're saying like put that on the list. Like it's already on the list. Like the list is already there.

I mean, this is one of the nice things about you never watching movies is that my list is essentially limitless, but I don't know. I don't think I'll put that movie on there because it's not accurate. It is a comedy though, so you would probably like it. Okay.

All right, it's going on next year. I'll do it. All right, so I guess we should pause again in this section and say, what are your favorites of applications and frameworks? Oh, so I think the one application that I used all the time, that I felt gave me just as much as a paid version or proprietary system was GIMP, which is the graphics image manipulation program, I believe is what it is.

And basically it's a Photoshop replacement. So it was open source Photoshop. And it wasn't the best in performance. It wasn't the best in user friendliness or interface or anything, but it got the job done.

I could bump pictures in there. I could crop pictures. I could do whatever I wanted to do. I could add blur.

I could select stuff. I could retouch stuff. I could do all of it. And it was with this open source software that was free.

Just like, oh, here you go. Have fun. Do whatever you want. You don't need Photoshop.

What's Photoshop? So GIMP is definitely my favorite. And back in the day, I used to work a lot in web development and work a lot on websites, things like that. So having kind of an IDE was nice for me.

And I used to use Dreamweaver by Adobe because that's what was given to us. Like, hey, here's Dreamweaver. And it's like, oh, Dreamweaver, awesome. It does source control.

It does all this other stuff. It's so great. So once that got tricked away, I was like, well, what am I supposed to do? I'm not going to just edit a bunch of HTML files or edit a bunch of text files on my computer.

So then I discovered Eclipse, which is an open source IDE. And Eclipse is just awesome. So I say favorite. And I always end up choosing two.

But GIMP and Eclipse are definitely my favorite open source projects like on an application basis that I used every day. What about you, Lou? So I can say, actually, I've seen Eclipse actually installed Eclipse on my computer once. I don't remember why I did it.

But I did it at one point for something quickly. But for the most part, yeah, I don't think I've used any of these. I've used source control a little bit. But that's about it.

So get a little bit. But I really haven't used any of these extensively. So again, another like, I don't know that I have a favorite. Yeah.

You put it here. What's that? Yeah, pretty much. It's like frameworks are pretty much out.

So yes, it's pretty much if, you know, I mean, it's a trying thing. I'm sure if I look through the Wikipedia page, I can probably find one or two more that I've used. But it's like nothing. I can tell you this much.

Nothing I've used extensively. So again, why is it a favorite? If I haven't used it for more than a week, it's not a favorite. And I need to have used more than one of these.

So yeah, that's not really a valid reason to say that it's my favorite. Womp, womp. Yeah. So anyway, moving on.

We've moved from OS to applications and frameworks. Now we're kind of into development and programming. So what are the big ones or languages and so on that are open source? So most programming languages are in a way open source, right?

There's most of the ones out there that you see on the web. You'll see Python, you'll see Perl, you'll see PHP, you'll see Ruby, you'll see JavaScript. You'll see all these applications out there that are essentially open source, right, where the code libraries have been open or the source itself has been there for a long time. And you're just kind of programming in that language to have the compiler translate all that code into actually machine-specific code in a way that is easy for you.

So these kind of in-between languages, that's a lot of them are open source, right? More commonly, you're seeing bigger companies that are like Apple, they have Swift as open source, right? And also, we didn't mention there, their framework, but WebKit is also open source as well, what kind of power Safari in their web rendering engine and JavaScript rendering engine. So really, it's a lot of the, when you open source a program in language, it just enables a bunch of people to be able to write in a language and experiment with a language and contribute to a language.

And you kind of really see that, especially with younger ones. If you take Swift, for example, you see tons of people like almost defining how Swift is progressing, right? It does have oversight of a large company, but there are a lot of people who can add suggestions and say, hey, it would be great if it did this, and what about if we did it this way and this way? So once you have all this input into a programming language, it just allows you to do really powerful things.

So those are some of the things I just rattle off the list off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are a ton more programming languages or a dime a dozen these days. But those are some of the bigger names that I hear. And I don't know, do you have any others that I missed, Lou, Mr. Liu?

I mean, I think you definitely hit the big, big ones. I can't really think of any else off the top of my head. It's super, super big. I think that in terms of ones I've used, I really only use I think Swift a little bit.

But I guess you've probably used, I'm sure, all of these at some point in your career. I'm definitely kind of dabbled in every one of these. I mean, when you get into programming languages, like you're investing a lot to write a program or write an application or like invest in a language, but I've definitely messed with Python the most, and that's probably one that I still continue to use. And it's been around for a little while, it's a little more modern in terms of how the language is written and how you write with Python.

So that's one that I still use every day. And I guess I can call it my favorite just because of my familiarity with it. So yeah, sure, let's say Python. All right, fair enough.

Python it is. So if we move forward from just sort of the splattering on the wall of us just going through the big chunks of open source that's out there, let's talk a little bit of the pros and cons, which is something I think we like to do. So there's obviously, I think, a lot of pros here, and there's definitely a few cons. But Adam, what is a reason that's either a company or an organization might want to consider open source as a methodology for moving forward with, let's just as an example say their application.

I think with open source, there are a lot of benefits because it's definitely a faster adoption rate. When it's free and anyone can download it, you're going to have a lot more eyes on it. And when you open source something, it means that everyone can see it, everyone can see how you're doing it, and they can be talking about provide that feedback and provide some insight or even just test, right? Like you give something out there to people and say, hey, run this, and it's free.

Just go ahead and run it. People will run it. And as people run into problems, you're able to die. Don't say that.

So I just think faster adoption is kind of like the biggest, the biggest pro that I see of having, software be open source. It's just you just have tons of eyes on it immediately and tons of people are able to kind of, like you said, go through community review and, provide insight into blogs and say, hey, this is happening, we need to fix this, and we can fix it in these ways, right? So there's a lot of kind of community that goes with that. So that's why I think if a company is going to release something as open source, you're going to see that benefit.

Yeah, I mean, I think the big one is the faster adoption, right? I mean, anytime you essentially are giving something away for free, you're going to reap the benefits of that. And a lot of that is going to lead back to, you know, frugal bastards like you finding it and say, hey, I'm going to use this. And when you use it, it's only then that you find the, you know, any problems with it.

And as long as those people follow through with it, then you're going to, you know, drive the circle, if you will, and make the whole software platform better. Yeah, like you said, faster adoption is definitely one of the big ones. And yes, me, frugal me will always use open source. Well, I don't want to say always because I'm sure someone will call me out for now.

You know, these Mac OS is my daily driver operating system. And like, well, why don't you just, you know, use it to all the time? I guess I could, you know, but I understand, you know, that there is some convenience head and proprietary software, which we'll talk about a little bit. But the other big thing, the other big pro that open source has is most of the time because it is open, because that code is open, a lot of it gets worked into different, you know, projects and different operating systems very quickly.

So software compatibility is usually a big plus in open source. Like if there's an open source project, chances are it runs on every flavor of Linux you would ever want, you know, it runs on Windows. There's probably a port for Windows or a port for Mac, you know, it kind of runs the gamut there because when it's open, even if the person who, you know, started the project didn't have like the Mac OS side done, right? There's somebody out there who's like, man, I really like this project.

I really want to work on Mac. And I know a little bit about this stuff. So let me just take what they've done and just wrap it for the Mac and boom, I can, you know, fork it and release it as a Mac version or contribute back to the original source. Hey, here's the Mac, you know, source code if you need it.

And usually that means that most projects can be installed on whatever operating system you're running. Yeah, that's definitely lucrative. The flexibility is a big plus for I think a lot of people. lucrative is free, man.

You can't be lucrative when it's free. It's lucrative in the sense that it's, you know, cross platform. You know, there's a lot of people there, you know, want that flexibility and, you know, there's, if you go to the, you know, pay walled gardens of, you know, paying for software a lot of times not, you know, that's where all that starts to break down. You know, the open source has that lockdown pretty good.

I was just giving you crap for using lucrative. I was like, you gotta use a better word. lucrative to the frugal folks. Yeah, lucrative to frugal.