051 – Toby Hemenway on Permaculture Ethics

What this episode covers

Paul reviews the third ethic with Toby Hemingway. Toby finds it ironic that people are quick to tell him he should be giving away his book as surplus . Toby goes through some history on how he got his first workshop paid for. When people come to Toby looking for a break on a price he gets upset when people are able bodied and intelligent. Asking for a subsidy should be a last resort. Paul explains that some people are taking advantage of the third ethic and surplus. People do not have the right to come in and tell you what you have in surplus and how you should give things away. Paul and Toby discuss the difference between a gift economy and a theft economy. Toby explains how an ethic works and how it is meant to serve the community. Ethics are not meant to serve a person. Paul Wonders if it is possible to practice permaculture without hearing of the three ethics . Toby thinks that people can do well in permaculture if they already have a good set of base ethics to work from. Paul gives an example of how helping a farmer to use some permaculture methods can help him make more profit is a good way to help create surplus. How by getting rid of the Monsanto crops and replace them with permaculture crops is a good way to get things moving in the right direction. Toby feels that farms evolve over time and how permaculture can be applied to the farm and economics and soils and many other things in life. Toby explains how Monsanto is not paying attention to their systems. Toby feels that we are not taught to be critical thinkers in school. As the ethics serve us as individuals then we are probably not applying them properly. Toby feels that people come to permaculture when there is a need for it . Mainstream is not going to embrace permaculture until they need it. Toby didn’t come to permaculture for the ethics, he came to it because if offered many things that he liked, such as edge and other multi function systems. Toby feels that Sepp Holzer practices permaculture based largely on observation. Toby explains how his system involves a great deal of observation and how the system needs to evolve based on additional observations. Paul discusses profit and asks for Toby’s opinion on profit and permaculture. Toby feels that when two parties agree to a price there should be a fair exchange . Toby feels it is his right to sell a book to a person as he choses. Toby does believe in the zero sum game. Paul asks Toby some tough questions on a topic that Toby and Paul do not agree on. The term Permaculture Certification Course and the term designer is discussed. Toby feels that a two week course is not really enough. Presenting yourself as a certified designer after taking a two week course is not sufficient. Toby feels that you need to have more experience.

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