Hi and welcome to classical stuff. You should know a podcast about the classical world Otherwise known as two of my friends mocking me while I make an introduction. That's the only reason we do this Anyway, sorry. It's all right.
So you're speaking in Canadian slang before we started this episode So it's our duty to my name everyone on ten D. No, that's not a thing that we should ever put on a recording So three bros go on a journey to see a horse race Okay, but we get way late along maybe it's more like two bros me and Thomas are going on a journey to see a horse race Okay, and yet emerging from the side of the road is a scruffy Philosopher who approaches us and says what is justice? Yeah, that is book to Republic some of the primary plot points are just a little bit different No, I'm correct. They weigh him and ask him what is this is close enough and then he just feels sort of what you are But you are a prisoner what I do take a mbrins which being with being known as a scruffy philosopher me No, I only take a mbrins with a second one being called a philosopher.
I'll expect so much. Yeah, what's crafty? It's roughly not enough to shower You guys know that Socrates and his wife didn't get along very well. I heard this I mean with that's that whole like stick of his a socratic it Sort of thing you would probably get a little annoying.
Oh, it's horrible. Seriously like do the dishes and be like what does it do? This is a dish. What is the point of the dish?
What are the different classifications of dish? Yeah, it'd be pretty terrible. In fact his wife's name is Ntibi now means ill-tempered woman if you're a woman Oh, yeah, not friendly. Okay.
Yeah, I'm talking about Plato his Republic book to that's what we're doing today So if you think back to a previous episode I did Plato's book one where he is kind of coming home from a parade and you get like a real quick recap real quick recap Not put a Yeah, yeah, it was a family of girls. Yeah, it's exactly real quick recap He was out at sort of a festival and then he's heading back home and some guys stop him And they're like hey, we want to talk with you and there are more of us than there are of you so come with us And he's like okie doke all and they're like also there's a horse thing later tonight where they're gonna pass a torch for hand To hand and that's gonna be crazy. So he says I'd like to see that so they're just gonna chat for a while until the horse race happens And so they're jetting and in the first book the question is what is justice? He's talking with his old friend of his who basically says I take solace in the notion that I've done justice my whole life and He says that's to pay your debts and I forget what the other half of it was but Socrates takes umbers with it and do your work Do you work in paradise my real business something like that?
I don't think it was my drone business. I think it was be kind of your friends Yes, something like that Yeah And so he says that and this guy for Semicus says well, it's better to do evil than good And just it's better to seem good and do evil than anything else and says all this stuff and Socrates pretty much pulls apart his definitions Until the guy sort of gets huffy and walks away Which is probably what is my why is why I feel different? That's right That's kind of mostly how things go for Socrates is people talk to him and then he sort of pulls things apart till they get Huffy and leave yeah, so in book two a couple of dudes sitting there glaucon and his buddy or his brother are like you know what? No, they say we're not satisfied that you've done a good enough job For Semicus got huffy and he walked away and the the phrase they use is he's like a snake who was charmed too early by your words And they say we don't we don't fully buy it like we don't think you did a good enough job So here's what we're gonna do we are gonna lay out our argument for why justice is stupid Yeah, and they're kind of so they are taking through semikas aside They are they don't fully believe it but I know one has convinced us that justice is actually good Right, they we hear people saying it all the time on both sides And we'd like to know so let's they are take for some of his aside just do a better job of it the modern youth Washed in the realm among the relative seas not knowing where the the islands of truth lie We're talking about Socrates why sailor man what asking Socrates to take them to the house or are you okay?
I mean a teacher good need to find all these metaphors with that good That's kind of interesting because at the end of last episode I think we were also unsatisfied without Socrates and old person kiss so it's interesting so Plato's Republic like follows that same thread Yeah, sorry his arguments were okay. They just weren't he's like you like you want to do justice for the rest of your life Yeah, it's like Socrates kind of missed the point on their semikas argument So first the guys say there are three types of good right there are things that are pleasant and desirable for themselves like simple pleasures Having a nice boat bowling noodles, right? Just like maybe just like sitting in the Sun and having a nice you know read of a book or like a sparkly water right? Fuzzy water Canadians Yeah, we've talked about this before and then they say so there's those that are pleasant desirable for themselves There are those things that are desirable for themselves and the ends that they bring so knowledge site So that's probably wealth reading a book.
Yeah, it's fun while you do it And then it also brings a lot of health and stuff whereas like sitting in the Sun might not bring health But sure is that right and then those that are desirable only for the ends that they bring like exercise. Yeah exercise or exercise like dental surgery Yeah, that is not good, but it is a good for you It's just really unpleasant while you're going and they say look we are going to try to prove that justice is the third kind Desirable only for its ends and we want you to prove to us that it's the second kind which is desirable desirable for itself and for its Ends right we need to know that justice is desirable in and of itself as they go and they start laying out this thing And they actually do a really systematic job of it. So they say we're gonna give you three points point number one We're gonna tell you the nature and origin of justice where it came from point number two We're gonna show you that men who practice justice do it only of necessity and point number three that life for the unjust is better Than life for the just okay, and they so they're gonna give him three points So point one is that the origin of justice. So where do you think justice comes from if you have to get crack at it What's its origin an innate sense of right and wrong?
a Necessary concept when two when autonomous people are living close to each other Okay, why is it necessary because there's gonna be there's gonna be conflict one person wants one thing one person wants another thing And there's no and those two willpower are in congruent or two willpower are wanting Opposite things so you need some sort of measurement principle as to which which thing you should go with would you say that it's better to get what you Want than not get what you want like would you rather be the guy that wins in that argument? Yeah, you would rather be the guy that wins in that argument unless the end unless you want the you want something that is Actually harmful for you don't realize cash then yes You want to win in that argument what if you have to do a little bit of dirty to get there um? You get cash just do it still one way not really well I mean it depends on how how much like if like a sense of if you think something happens to you by doing dirty deeds All right, so you sort of fall into my trap But you're like I sort of like grab a branch on the way down that's right so the notion of virtue branch that justice arises from People living usually together is kind of right where they land they say that everybody lives together And this is sort of a compromise between two things so to do in justice is by nature good and like get what you want Right you'd rather be the guy practicing injustice on everybody else right getting getting your ends and and hosing everybody in them like Raising to the top and not care who's facing stomp on to get there But you're gonna wait with it right that is better than having injustice done to you right being the guy whose face gets Stomped on and everyone kind of agrees that it is it is much harder to be the stomper than the stompy and It's way worse to be the stompe than to maybe be the stomper so everyone kind of compromises into this middle ground and says All right Well, we'll all just agree to this middle ground of justice so that we don't all get stomped on because it's way more common It's a lot easier So I'll read the little section they say that to do injustice is by nature good to suffer injustice evil But that the evil is greater than the good and so when men have have both done and suffered injustice and had had experience of both Not being able to avoid the one and obtain the other they think that they better agree among themselves to have neither Since their eyes are hence their arise laws and mutual covenants and that which is ordained by law is termed by them lawful Injustice this they affirm to be the origin and nature of justice It is a mean or compromise between the best of all which is to do injustice and not be punished and the worst of all Which is to suffer injustice without the power of retaliation and justice being at a middle point between the two is tolerated Not as a good, but it's the lesser evil and honored by reason of the inability of men to do injustice So that's the notion so they lay that out and they say that's justice That's where it comes from right where it's a mean between two extremes. Okay, please said so they don't necessarily think that They're just taking through some because his argument and saying so if justice is the interest of the stronger person Then this must be the origin of justice well They I think sort of left for some of his behind at this point They've said we don't really know what to believe we've been told that justice is good We've also been told that justice is bad They're people on both sides and we haven't heard it well defended ever Yeah, right and it sure seems like it would be easy to do injustice and get a lot of cash All right, so reason number two those who practice justice do so involuntarily and because they have not the power to be unjust So they do this by way of a story.
So there's this farmer, right? His name is Gaijis Gaijis wanders around and he sort of wanders into a crevice during a storm. Okay, that's not it's just like a little ravine Okay, so one is in the ravine and he finds a giant gilded bull kind of thing like a if you if this was if we're watching ancient aliens This is the part where they would say I'm not saying it's aliens But it was probably an alien should right so it's this giant sort of gilded bull and he opens a hatch and in there He finds this huge body kind of like a king instead and there's a ring on it So he snatches the ring pops on his finger Then he goes back and he's hanging out he's having a fine time and then he goes to a meeting of all the shepherds and in that meeting He's just sort of filling with the ring and he turns it so that the setting is inward and he disappears Right instantly disappears and then everybody at the meeting starts talking about him if he wasn't there any flips it back and whoop He comes back and so he tries it a bunch of times and every time he turns it inward He turns invisible and so was his 111 teeth birthday I was thinking I was like talking read this book probably so he turns it inside out and then goes to the king's house seduces the queen and with her health Kills the king and takes the kingdom Oh, right and the the basic concept they given in point two is like look give a righteous man and an evil man That same ring and they're gonna do the same stuff like what man is what man is so righteous that he would keep his hands off of other People's goods that he wouldn't sleep it with who he wanted to sleep with he wouldn't steal something He wouldn't go about doing horrible things like Maggie's that right find me at finding a man like that Give me that ring actually no I guess we're following the Tolkien thing isn't the isn't the ring is corrupting right so even so guys He's wouldn't have done any of those things without the ring but given the chance would Yeah, yeah, so here's a quote if you could imagine anyone obtaining this power of becoming invisible and never doing any wrong or touching What was there just appeared Graham? Where did Graham?
Thanks He would be thought by the lookers on to be a most wretched idiot although They would praise him to one another's faces and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they too might suffer injustice Enough of this so they would like if you if you had it you're like I will only do good They'd be like that guy's idiot but oh great job. Good job, buddy So that's number two and the number three so that was the origin of justice that was that all men who practice justice do so Involentarily because given the chance to do injustice they would take it they'll take it and the last one is If you compare the life of the just in the unjust man the unjust man wins out So they say it's sort of a thought experiment take one man and he does injustice, but he is thought just so he's a thoroughly corrupt person But everyone in the world thinks in the just most just man alive right now take a really really righteous man Mm-hmm, and he has a reputation for being totally wretched and unjust but he has never cheated a man in a day in his life Never cheated a man in a day in his life, but everybody thinks so no which man has a better life I mean first one the first one kind of the first one by a huge margin, right? Because everybody thinks you're a scumbag and you're not a scumbag but they treat you like you are a scumbag that sucks Yeah, yeah, and in this case you'll probably get killed like you're gonna get in prison stoned hung on the rack Unless you have some but but then don't you have some very sentiment of Of that there is an objective I like that there is sort of a divine a divine reward for you know doing these doing good and secret Really hard to feel that when you're being stretched out on a rack I know but I'm wondering more but man have done it sure I'm wondering where how does the man feel about his own actions? So is he does he think himself a noble person though?
He is corrupt? Oh, yeah, he knows he knows he's noble well then which makes it even worse if he's delusional then probably is better like it would look better for him But again objectively we would look and say he's not a touch with reality and he's a scumbag like that is a worse life to live So you think this person is out of such a reality if he thinks he is noble, but he's actually a liar in a criminal First one yeah, oh you think that the first my question is the first man fooled by his own game is no He knows he's evil. Oh, then I think it's worse life. He you always have that worry of being found out That risk is losing everything a few finding out who he really is like that is a worse That's sort of amically instead of ring of veggies right like you have that threat hanging over your head all the time that people could find out about Yeah There's something very nice at the last moment when you're laying on your death bed and none of these things have come and your last I was like I did it.
I got away with it like it's not yeah Maybe it's not but it's still better than a life of horrible abject poverty with no family no friends and completely revolved by society Sure, I mean I would you try to feel like a deathbed feeling for a life of absolute terror But there's something I mean Maybe we're just enough of Aristotelians that we have this idea that like virtue is its own that we are so believe that virtues Is on reward that the integrity of the life of doing good even in the fair agent you taught us so well about Obvious That changes the fortune. I mean nothing or maybe we're just like a little stoics. Yeah, yeah The changes of fortune don't even think that we have well you might you might be a little ahead of me here I'm just I mean right here They are asking him to prove that justice is its own good exactly so you guys are already in the place where you believe Justice is its own good But yeah, but now we want the proof Yeah, but like all the trapping like the first life that has the benefits of virtue without any of the cost of it would look better To most people yeah, you get to you are respected you are put in positions of power like all that stuff looks great But the soul of the person is corrupt. Yeah, and that's it's hard to weigh those two That's that's all the stuff that the cloud concepts here is my three-fold thing Here are the reasons why justice is stupid and then his brother comes in and says look even more each brother's name again I forget at a mantis at a mantis at a mantis at a mantium.
Isn't that Wolverine? No? Yeah at a mantis? That's what it's a d e i m a n t u s it was jacked So he can he chimes it right?
Yes, canonically. Yeah. Oh, yeah, so some respect please I'm so sorry sir Alright, so his brother comes in and says look the poets love to praise justice right? Homer praises it has the odd praises that all those guys say that justice is the best forever But the prosists they don't the people who write long books and even gives a quote vice Maybe had an abundance without trouble the way is smooth and her dwelling place is near but before virtue the gods have set toil Right, sorry.
That was that was he's odd and then he decides Homer and stuff and he says look there are their voices on both sides Both of the pros is safe and evil is easy. It's quick It's gonna lead to a good life and right there in front of you and on top of that He pulls out a little bit from Homer the gods to maybe turned from their purpose And men may pray to them and avert their wrath by sacrifices and soothing in treaties and by libations and odor of fat when they have sinned and transgressed So he says look if you've got a student some kid who's at least a little bit halfway clever He's gonna look at both of these sources right the one pretty justice. Look Injustice is easy right being a jerk is super cake sauce and not only that but it's kicks off a good thing I think I didn't know it's probably a north northwest phrase. Sorry.
It's a sorry You guys are saying kicks off down here? Mm-hmm. Hey, it's us the north. No, no, no, no, no, no, no Washington's I never heard that Sorry, okay, good kicks off.
Yes. Well now I feel silly Well, we've had Canadian slang and cake sauce. I see you out there my watching Yeah, yeah, so he says look if you have a halfway clever student He's gonna put together that injustice is easy and that the threats that are meant to keep us in place Which is a horrible after life and the retaliation of the gods if the gods can be so easy easily appeased with sacrifices and prayers Then why not just be unjust and then give them the cow that you have so easily earned? Mm-hmm.
I know this was an argument given to me by someone I remember at university and he was like a figured it out Deathbed conversion he's like it makes total sense He's like you know I can do whatever I want this life and then all I just got to do is like sincerely sincerely repent on my deathbed And I'm in that guy's hit my bus. That's why that was exactly what I told him That's exactly was my retort, but even that I don't think is like oh, it's not a good one It's not a good one the right retort is that the Christian life is a full life Yes, and also that yeah, the life of vice is not a satisfying one But I think you're gonna end up becoming the kind of person that doesn't want to repent on your deathbed anyway Yeah, all right, so there we go the life of vice is easy and the gods can be appeased Justice is just a compromise because being having unjust is done to you is terrible doing injustice is clearly what everybody wants And the life of the unjust person is better so they're giving this sort of pragmatic argument saying why should we sacrifice for this? Why should we sacrifice the good the sort of the good things that that injustice brings for justice? Yeah What's the point what's the point?
What's the point? What's the point? That justice is coming from a different place or is better or leads to a better life when as of right now? It seems like true justice doesn't bring good life.
What brings good life is reputation for justice. Mm-hmm So you guys are Socrates. What do you do? How do you respond?
I guess question each point wouldn't he just like this pick each one and go through it so we still books done What's that? Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, so horse race starts So didn't so we were starting to pick up the third one So I guess he would start with point one and go through each one and he might even agree with certain parts of them I don't know. Oh, can you can you do a good job of taking apart the origin of justice?
I mean, we don't know if that's the actual origin of justice. That's that's a narrative story that then leads into his argument That's not like an actual history of where justice came from. It's like a theory You know, I mean sure is yours better. No, but it was still be a theory what I'm saying is what are the alternative theories?
Where we're just came from like what would be the other another viable option then just the mean between? Is it the way of a way of a Necessated by culture and necessitated by communities So then This is one of the great ideas big ideas in Adler's government Where does government come from is government come from cities being put together or is it pre-city? Does it come from instead of family? So there's a certain internal justice to a family structure It's a monopoly on violence.
Okay, great But it's still it's still is born when people are near each other and the justice is that people don't want to have Baddings that like you ever have like four kids in a house. It's all about fairness Do you have a government sub justice? Yes, they have justice sure. Okay, so then it's just vacation for her Justice if it's not a community thing that's what again If your starting place is violent communities need to suppress violence You can say justice is violence But if you start from justice come arises naturally from the family then if we understand the polis the city as a family You're you're starting places different is that it's there's a lot of violence even in the small family I mean it depends on how you define violence But if you ever watch kids interact they demand justice because they don't want their toy taken they don't want to be left out It is still a sure desire to not be yeah I'm not I'm more getting at your statement of we everyone wants to commit injustice to get what they want is not necessarily true like fathers Do not want to commit injustice mothers do not want to commit injustice children might but that's why children need to become adults right?
That's all I'm getting at if your starting place is justice comes from violence And you're then you're only gonna interpret it that way and neither of these are like actually where justice came from because we don't know So is the justice between father and kid a different kind that's where I'm saying is it is the justice in the city? It's just in the city the building up of little families that then create cities or is city where justice comes from because glaucon is arguing that justice didn't exist before Large groups of people came together right he's saying that you need different people groups to come together you need different families to come together Or does justice come from somewhere before that? As of right now it seems like I don't know maybe distinction without a difference like it can come from the family sure but it's still a relationship between groups of people and even justice between father and son Right the father doesn't want to have his money stolen by the son and the son doesn't want to be beaten by the father right it's still a Sort of a social agreement right the social it can be in the family and originate in the family sure but I think it can still have their definition of justice where it's a mean between A evil that's easy to fall into and a good. It's really hard to get sure.
I'm just saying the story. It doesn't necessarily have to be violent Oh, yeah, sure. I agree. Um, so then also does justice come from groups or does it come from the individual?
That's your question. That's a big question If it's if it's not from groups then it can't be their definition because we have senses of right and wrong that precede our interactions with other groups of people The hermit thinks that is right to be a hermit. That's why he's doing it So so there's something that precedes groups of people but even the hermit by himself could see that something was not fair like you know He spends his entire day Um collecting his bowl of water And then in the middle of the night he gets tipped over and all his water is that you know at the end of this he could be saying All of my labor and I don't get the fruits of my labor He would have a sense of it being unfair and the only place that he could turn his sense of injustice to would be best of the heavens You know like some sort of sense of so even by yourself. I feel like I feel like yeah So I feel like maybe in like the sense of justice and is is um necessitates relationship Or even is just like a sort of built-in to the human program from the get-go Justices.
Yeah, that doesn't necessarily give us like this while little kids while little kids immediately have a sense of that's not fair It's not like they were taught with fairnesses Sure, but say but yes, so but for that sense of that's fair or not fair you need interactions between people Yeah, but it has to rise but I'm still in a certain so you have a sense of right and wrong But y'all have to figure out between yourselves like what is actually right? Even by yourself for fear in a group you everyone has a sense of them themselves being a An entity being a person. Yeah, and your bull gets tipped over usually it's because you've Intified and entity if I'd you've you've not find something else right? Yeah, a rock is falling into your bowl You're mad at the rock even though sure okay, so what does soccer t say about?
It's not just the entire question. Um, it's one of my favorite responses ever he goes like boys That way like good job. That was a good argument you guys. I'm real impressed like wow and you're good warriors too provo Like he's facing like no he builds him up a little bit.
He's honestly like that was really good I'm super impressed. He's like well, hmm. This is a hard question So why don't we do this say and he uses this analogy? Which is kind of awesome He's like all right if you were asked to read a bunch of letters that were really far away and you couldn't do it What if you found out that the same inscription was somewhere in town and you go look at the letters real big And then you can go and see letters real small right?
You've already seen the inscription once you know what it says Okay, so why don't we try to find something that can show this to us in a larger scope? Right rather than asking what is justice in one person is there something else where we could see justice on a larger scale? And he's like well justice is not only a quality of individual men It's also the quality of a state right a state can be just true So why don't we do this how about we build a state And then once we build the state we'll look for justice there and if we find it there Maybe we can find what it means in individual people okay, right seems like I've always seems like overcomplicated the situation seems like What we build entire society instead of yeah? Maybe I don't know I just it just feels like it's the the long way around I think it's genius I love it I just I mean it gives him an opportunity to also go into a bunch of his politics and stuff and talk about states and people and all All sorts of things so I really like this idea but it does belie the idea that the community the state the polis is A macrocosm of the individual or the individual is the that the individual necessitates order the same way that a state necessitates order So many kind of disappear if you do not have order in the person you want to have order in the state or that That someone like one of our students is just an absolute mess emotionally and relationally and they can't get their stuff together It's the equivalent of like a state with no walls being ravaged by barbarians.
You know that kind of or there's some upheaval right? So this is where we get the idea of the tripartite soul we talked about before but Yeah, I guess number one yeah, I guess number one but you can't access unless you know do classical stuff on it Yeah, well, we'll talk about all that later, but okay, so boys. We're gonna we're gonna try to do a play-doh did okay Let's build a state. Okay.
All right, so what do you what do you need to start a state? Like what what is the absolute like what brings the state together? Oh, it brings it together? Yeah, cuz you can just have people but they'll just live by themselves like there's like a reason to live together Yeah, so like security would be like an obvious one or food or like they get like physical needs met by being together that they don't get from being apart Okay, so physical needs right necessity really dope outfits those uniforms is yeah, but if you're not Near people oh you don't need to I mean like if I can go with oh there you go Just like the buff you need ceremonies Really?
Yeah, okay, you can't do ceremonies on yourself. That's true. Yeah, you need a reason you need a common cause It's like common cause something that brings us all together Which I guess could be just meeting physical needs but like there's be something that we can do better because there are lots of us And so like maybe the reason we're building this farm and that you and Sarah can be part of it is because you own a great smoker I guess I don't know if you see that's what that's going people yeah, yeah, yeah, seriously You own a great smoker and he is a great smoker It's good. It's good plan.
It's pipe. Okay. So I think you guys a bit on it necessity necessity It was what brings the state together. So yes Lewis echoes this in the great divorce, right?
Yeah, you guys read that book you remember that hell the reason that no one hangs together in hell is that All right, they can think of a house in the house is instantly there So there's no reason for them to be near other people so they keep moving further and further away So no true community happens everyone just sort of hates each other Yeah, we accept a certain level certain level of discomfort and annoyance because it's because our needs are met easier in community than Then if we just but if all of our need then if we didn't have our needs met with all of our needs are met the natural human inclination Like Lewis says is to like further and further out. Yeah, and that I mean that happens But then sometimes those people die right there's the story of the kid What was it like into the wild oh yeah? He wanted to go and live on his own but then he ate some things he shouldn't have eaten and died because of it because he didn't Have people there to help take care of him. Oh, right name.
Oh, he's got a sweet last name I remember his last name was Starbucks cool. It's not that okay So you people come together because of needs right because we have a manless is that Mechaneless yeah, I was cool name so come together because of needs so what needs what people need to be in a state to meet our needs Right, so let's let's start putting different types of people in our state What sort we got if we're there to meet our needs who needs to be in our state people who are good at me? I'm producing various things that meet those needs okay What needs have to be that food food so we need a husband and we need a farmer clothing we've a shelter I want you to build her I'm gonna like I'm make sure we don't like it killed by other like big cities Like a soldier class or something okay? We'll get there you're jumping a little bit ahead because right now all we are is like two farms in the guy that makes So, let's see up someone need to protect us the first couple turns on civilization Yeah, yeah, no, he's coming to steal your beer quite yet so you have a few Barberries haven't spawned Time to get together and you guys have nailed it those are the first three things that Plato says like look We've got farmers We've got builders and we've got weavers and maybe a shoemaker because we've really necessarily great making shoestar All right, he's like you know what it's it's a better if men try to do a lot of things or if they try to do one thing It's better for the community if it's one thing yeah, but hard to do all this all this hard to do all the things I'll do them all well right So if I'm a husband man and I'm trying to farm and raise animals and raise chickens and build a plow and make all my tools And do all the things you'll have crappie shoes, but you're gonna have crappie shoes You're gonna have real bad clothes your house is gonna suffer because you're trying like you can't do everything So it's better if you do one thing so for my farmer if I'm supposed to do one thing if I'm supposed to farm What people are needed to sort of supplement and help me make other stuff tool makers I need a blacksmith you know blacksmiths, but you know weverse you can get your clothes Who can like help it again?
Yeah, okay, so I might need a vet that's not mentioned in the public But so far you guys are mentioning all things that are mentioned by glato so we need a vet We probably need someone to make some tools we need someone to raise animals So we might need like a shepherd right what else is needed for our farmer to survive someone who can like mill your grain to make bread Yeah, turn it into something useful okay, so mill the grain make bread Just like all the cooking like yeah, I can take some Yeah, yeah, so so someone to make make food make that faster because if you have to step out every day for two hours per meal It's just not it's not gonna happen. Yeah, you need some sort of bureaucratic agency to rate your extra play Yeah, obviously yes, he stands in the middle of town. You just bring your chicken eggs triple A triple A triple A Yes, whatever happens to like the singlet eggs if you're headed I applaud you sir groves super gross. Oh gross.
Okay. I mean I don't think I'm wrong. I don't think I'm wrong. That's disgusting Okay, so you carpenter Smith's artisans, right?
Okay, what if man what if our region like what if we're in say the fur crescent? And we need to build a house, but they're just like look outside We got oh we're gonna like her houses. We need someone who can maybe travel to get a nice tree So we might need an importer man, right? So now we need a whole class of importers to bring in stuff from outside that we might need maybe we can't get a lot of metal here Or there's like a tin right in salt mines salt mines on the students do Oh, I want to find a salt deposit Yeah, oh sure do salt mine, I think we could like we could sell it we have artisan salt We could have a classical salt and that's what's all about.
Is it called that was the castle spice mines? Yeah, the drugs don't want to go. Yeah, okay. Yep.
Okay, so we need importers and What are they supposed to take stuff that we have access? We need to have an excess of things okay, so we need we need access right so we need to make more than we are the We there's only a way that we could turn our labor into a portable utility that could transfer from one location to another So nice what what only we currency if only we huh okay, maybe currency, but how are we how are our exporters and importers being transported? Oh, we need to like make a ship if it's by water. Don't you mean or a wagon if it's by land or ship?
Yeah, we need some more sources. We need some of the tame horses. Okay, we need some people to sail So our state is getting pretty big right we start out with just like three people Yeah, builder farmer and and a tailor and now we'll maybe shoemaker if they're really feeling sassy and now we've grown to I mean We're talking hundreds of people right it's pretty big Pretty big we can still probably fit in a single city right yeah, okay And when Plato was making this he's thinking city state right with just a single city's worth of people right what about the The church in the center of town to serve our well is it embarrassing? We can't help with this our monastic needs our spiritual needs I don't think we necessarily need that yet Oh, we're not quite right your kids to her we have to we have to take care of our like base physical needs first Okay, I'm ready alone, but interesting I Know a lot of people over there.
Okay. Yeah, it's vegetables to it. That's right. Okay, so we need sailor sailors, right and Our so when our say our farmer finishes with his day Is he supposed to take all of his bushels and go sit in the market like with his bushels?
No, he needs like a middleman to who can sell his bushels throughout the workday because I was gonna go shopping at night Yeah, so we need retailers, okay, and we need some higher links. So we need a whole race of Sellers, right? Okay. Is there anything else needed in our state?
We've got importers exporters We got people do the job we can out of church sure but now we're fat and juicy for for plundering Okay, it's bond is that fat and juicy for plundering and so can you describe life right now awesome? Life is where yeah, where we've everyone has a job. It like matters and it matters the community and everyone has a place that constitutes the flourishing of that community. Yeah, okay It's a you call a dream.
Oh, it's really nice. It seems like we maybe you guys have assumed this in there But it seems like we're missing some luxury. Oh, no, no, no, no luxury. Okay, it's gonna make us off Oh, man, let me all you guys are so good at this.
How are you guys so good at this? How did I get hooked up with two such a student has read this book before it's cuz we've yeah I'm guessing it's been long enough that isn't remember all the details three men in our lives have tasted luxury at some point and Have rejected it because of the softness that it was it ascribing to our character Yeah, and we went for the struggle strenuous life of poverty. That sounds really nice. I started the bottom down here boy I like me a little bit of luxury.
Okay, let me read this little bit so he they finish up and they say okay We've got our hirelings We've got our servants. We got the people to stand in the in the market. We've got ext reporters and exporters and play-o-feels done Or talk to you feels done. He says Let us then consider first of all what will be their way of life now that we have thus established them Will they not produce corn and wine and clothes and shoes and build houses for themselves and when they are housed They will work in summer commonly stripped and barefoot but in winter substantially clothed and shot They will feed on barley meal and flower of wheat baking and needing them making noble cakes and loaves These they will serve upon a mat of reeds or on clean leaves themselves reclining the while upon bed strewn with you or murder And they and their children will feast drinking of the wine which they have made wearing garlands on their heads and hemming the praises of the gods in happy Converse with one another and they will take care that their families do not exceed their means having an eye to poverty or to war Sounds idyllic really nice not a lot of injury though, but then said glaucon interposing you have not given them a relish to their meal Right now, that's a lot of barley and a lot of leaves I'm not getting any spell like there's no oregano in there.
I'm not here So true I replied I had forgotten of course They must have a relish salt and olives and cheese and they will boil roots and herbs such as country people prepare for dessert We shall give them figs and peas and beans and white beans make a search Yes, well and they will roast myrtle berries like those Japanese things by like the you're talking about You mean paste I don't know to be being paste is a thing. It's amazing. It's really good. You can get the frozen About toothpaste You never had tooth beans.
Listen you listeners up there. You're listening up there. Help me So he says and they will roast myrtle berries and acorns of the fire drinking in moderation and with such a diet They may be expected to live in peace and health to a good old age and bequeath a similar life to their children after them So unclear is he describing these are like simple luxuries. Yeah, so he's still kind of trying to maintain like look just Simple, yeah Yes, Socrates he said and if you were providing for a city of pigs, how else would you feed the beasts?
He's like wow sounds great if we're hogs, but we're humans Though what would you have glaucon replied why he said you have given them ordinary conveniences of life people who are to be comfortable Are accustomed to lie on sofas and dine-off tables and they should have sauces and sweets in the modern style. Mm-hmm. Yes I said now I understand No, I'm agreeing okay good the question which you have would have me consider is not only how a state but how a luxurious state is created and Possibly there's no harm in this for in such a state We shall more likely we are more likely to see how justice and injustice originate And so he goes on and he says like you want to see a state in favor He right and we got to add sofas and tables and furniture and daintys and perfumes and incense and courtes and cakes and all kinds of stuff Alright, so what happens to our state when that happens? We get moderate we get a moderate what else happens?
We start to like luxury So you get this like class of people who like only luxury so in our previous community everyone had an important job But now you have like useless jobs or okay, you know, I mean like jobs that don't jobs that are just catering to these Hi, we start bringing these finer things gold and ivory and like really nice coffees even though the local coffee's okay Yeah, so what happens when we start needing? Exporters and workers and fine gold and workers and fine things and perfumers and performers and poets and players and all that stuff What happens to our state? I mean not everybody can have those finer things okay? I don't have those fine operations.
Yeah, their separation of the haves and have not sure it also gets bigger Yes, no for sure, right? It's bigger and when our state begins to push on the edges of our borders. What happens? So again other other states get a little grumpy sauce that we're getting bigger Right, and we're gonna need a little extra so he says then we must enlarge our borders for the original healthy state is no longer sufficient Now will the city have to fill and swell with a multitude of callings which are not required by any natural want like you guys We're saying right people who have useless useless jobs such as the whole tribe of hunters and actors of whom one large class have to do with forms and colors Another with vodaries of music poets and their attendant trained rapists and players and dancers and contractors and makers of articles and women's dresses and more servants and Nurses wet and dry and hairdressers and barbers and confectioners and squine hurts and all these people and of course our state is gonna Swell immeasurably because we're not just meeting needs true now.
We are living in style generally Yeah, we gotta go conquerin okay now if we need to go conquerin. There's a job we need conquerin Soldiers all right so our soldiers where we get those the buffest of our young yeah Okay, why the buff is very young because we need them to throw down people who are like capable of going to war But if you think the young people like they're supposed to become farmers and stuff I don't maybe you have more kids is an option, but you just him set up an academy I don't know you want like a West Point, but do you I guess or do you have people who are like bad farmers? I don't know do you have a class of people at this point? You like aren't useful for anything except being buff?
Maybe but who's gonna make the best soldiers the young right sure the young people are coming to the young care community ones that have a natural propensity to Violence that can be channeled effectively. Yeah spirit in this right Yeah, and so he talks a little bit about war and he says then without determining as yet whether war does good or harm Thus much we may affirm that now we have discovered war to be derived from causes Which are also the causes of almost all the evils in states private as well as public war comes from luxury Hmm, right? That's kind of what he's saying and we expand so much that we don't just use our basic needs What was the last time you saw like the Amish? The organization is a great place.
Yeah, you push it on the board Good or like the hippies that live in the communes aren't exactly going out and and worrying on the you know surrounding cities Yeah, so yeah, he pretty much says wars like luxury is the cause of war which is really interesting to me I never really thought about that before I don't think it's entirely accurate But it certainly does push push your state to be a little bit larger Yeah, cuz you would have you could conceive of just grudges between two sets of people that live in that first city that we were Talking wars for love sure there's also humanitarian wars if they have to us is like abusing their people Maybe I might go to war to like for noble causes right there Other reasons to go war yeah, but like so Graham with the plantagenets is luxury the reason that there is so much conflict and With the plant at its I'm just trying to draw connections. Yeah, but then everything gets then you have but then as history goes by then You've got the sense that things were lost so a lot of the wars of the plantagenets were to try to reclaim parts of France that they felt were their natural Sheres of influence that have been taken from them So then as I mean as the story continues then you have wars of revenge and you've got wars of um, yeah, it's not just luxury Yeah, it's not just luxury, but he does say that war is you know originates there so you've said we need Younglings whose spirits can be effectively directed is that what you said? You guys I'm actually super impressed at how well you are sort of figuring out the stage Because I quote he's talking about the spirit of young men whereas I said they ought to be dangerous to their enemies and gentle to their friends If not they will destroy themselves without waiting for their true enemies to destroy them So not only spirited but spirited that can be directed right and he says how are we ever gonna find people like that? And he's like well, we were just talking about animals Don't we have one kind of like that in the dog?
Right? Oh, yeah, I'm going to guards your sheep and whatnot guards your sheep and then we get into one of my favorite passages in this whole book Why a dog he says a dog has all these qualities a dog whenever he sees a stranger is angry when an acquaintance he welcomes him Although the one has never done him any harm nor the other any good did this never strike you as curious? So dogs just sort of instinctively know who's bad and who's good the guy says the matter never struck me before But I recognize the truth of it and he says and surely this instinct of the dog is very charming your dog is a true philosopher Oh, he knows what he likes and he know what what he hates only by the test of knowledge and ignorance Do I know you nope therefore I hate you so he said our dog is a philosopher and so therefore our warriors to scruff or teeth should So good, that's so good. We found our next shirt.
How would they all come from Granite's wonderful scruff Scruff yeah, I'm trying to think of other ones. Oh, man. What are some other philosophers? Well play the layer of stavel Conte could easily be panned Oh man, I'm trying to think of a good one for Nietzsche And yeah, oh Hegel could be beagle there Yeah, that's good one.
All right. We should think on this little further. Okay, okay, that's great All right, so the question is if we want to make our young men into thoughtful warrior philosophers We must first turn it to education, okay, right? Like I know this has been a really crazy journey in book two we go from what is justice and he's like well Let's take a complete left turn and build a state so we built our state out He's like well We're going to war and we have to figure out how to make our warriors a pleasant sort of people that hurt enemies and love us Why can't we just go back to the first one where we didn't have the luxury?
I feel like we don't have these problems be really easy, right? And then we get invaded and we're like well, I guess you can have our acorns dude. Yeah, yeah Are we just idolizing that like what do we actually want to live in that society? I mean we would have there would be creep we would eventually want like one little thing and be like okay Well, I don't want I know that a nicer coffee.
I want acorn coffee and grandma loves his cheese I know I'm a nice cheese and some like red wine with you with cheese I also like sweet bean paste for dessert. This is such a fun question Well, we'll get to the rest of this in just a moment But what are what are like areas in your guys lives where you require luxury? Like what are the things that you'll spend money on? Do you have any examples food for sure you you spend money on food?
Yeah, but Quality yeah, like quality stuff so like we there's a farmer's market that meets right outside our apartment And we will get the ground beef from the guy who killed the cow himself and raised that cow and yeah the ground beef is Maybe more per pound than you get at Whole Foods But the food the quality of food is so much better and or like a fresh chicken about a fresh chicken this weekend It was killed like two days ago. It's never been frozen. It's fresh And when you eat it it's like the flavor of chicken is very different than the flavor of chicken that I grew up So there's some tastes like chicken. I know it tastes like actual chicken whereas it doesn't look like I'm in the matrix right now Yeah, so it's so it's so I feel like that's like that's worth that's that's luxury.
Hmm. Okay, so food Do you spend anything else? I feel like you spend on good coffee, but no, you're not very disturbing in my coffee tastes Yeah, I so like we we buy we buy local things also I don't know if we call it luxury so like we do community sported agriculture, but I don't know I do love a good Negroni Negronis aren't inexpensive. I I spend on nice soaps.
Oh, yeah, I'm gonna buy that five dollar organic bar So people like I get I was bringing for like 60 cents a bar. Yeah, it's just better. Yeah, it's wait Like that's one area where I pay for yeah, and it doesn't leave a resume as much I there a lot of re-and just the smell of so much right time to our soap. I have it's a task my car I love pints our stuff smells like grandpa.
That's it you make that yourself I don't know that's why that's why I'm having trouble calling these things because you think these because they are we could have It's you've them in the simple living yeah, yeah, they are the tasty ground beef the tasty ground beef the vegetables I'm talking about that come literally from like just outside of town that we have a Maker school they're not be maker honey maker she hobbies and we the honey is really good He's really local so those luxuries like those like those again, how about all sunny, but they're there luxuries But in the modern world where like you've got mass produced honey yes and mass produce like ground beef They end up in luxuries because because they are rare. Yeah, but I mean I don't need like Bling and like who got ease or whatever fault. I would love a body So much oh, okay, anyway back to the back to the tail so we're gonna educate our young right We are starting at a complete book. I spend money on books like it's like good book sure But you can find really cheap books, I know but I'm saying again I don't know if that's a luxury so but then you need a luxury because now you need the space in order to have the books pens Oh, yes, that is you spend on nice pen that's true for those who have never met us I somehow instituted some sort of aristocratic snobbery into the English department by getting us all hooked on fountain pens And we all now have very nice Yeah, oh dang and ink stain fingers so apparently I'm way behind on time.
I keep on this next this next little bit I'll have to be fast so he pretty much says we're gonna educate our young and we're gonna do it in two ways music and gymnastics and music includes Stenix seriously and this is basically like thought and bought it right the gymnasium That's something different to them right yeah, and thought thought involves a lot of things and one of those things is literature And you start with untrue literature Poems move to true so untrue meaning like fables right it has an element of truth by the section right and then we move to true literature No, is there any censorship we should do? Is there any stories we don't want to give our kids just be clear This is only for the raising of the soldier people yeah Well, I think we eventually extend this to all young in the whole state. I mean we never know which ones are gonna turn out to be soldiers Yeah, let's not give them stories where the unjust person like gets away with it and lives a happy life What is our like vulgar stuff that you like yeah? We since we since are all kinds of things before they get work is so any anything where there's like heavy strife and it turns out well Or obscene material oh so Shakespeare's gone.
Oh, well certain and Homer's that's certain ages. Yeah, it's certain ages You wouldn't you wouldn't read the full depictions of like the heads being split open to like five girls all right So that's one thing he says we got a sensor all this stuff Any really time where there is strife anytime where there evil is spoken well of all that has to go and even more weirdly He says any tales where God is the originator of the evils of the world Interesting anything where there's strife in heaven anything where a God has to change shapes and lie because a God would have no reason to lie In fact, I wish I had more time for this but don't they have a bunch of other Greek stories what happens? Oh, yes, basically all of Homer goes away every fable about the gods goes away because Zeus is a doofus right? It talks about it kind of goes over the problem of evil right if there's evil in the world hopping that come from a good God And they kind of he goes through talking about it and says well evil clearly can't originate from the gods So when evil it comes out of them is clearly false Right, so we got to do away with all those stories any story where they fight with each other because that doesn't make sense If they're good right gods be perfectly good and even crazier the doctrine of immutability shows up here the immutability of God and He says look you can only be changed by things without you or within you right and gods are not subject to pressure from without right?
And if it's pressure from within well if the gods are perfect What are they gonna change to any change will be a change away from perfection and why in the world would they want to do that? So they're resistant to outside change and they don't want to change from the inside because they're already great So anything where a god changes or seems to change has to go. So the stories of proteas the shape shifting seagot That's gotta go. He's a shapeshifter the this I think changes shapes at one point That's gotta go anything and the guy other guys like well What if they you know have a reason to shapeshift?
You know if they wanted to see an enemy and he says well that they could surely do it in a different way And so he says for an education there can be no stories of evil of strife of talking back to your parents of Infighting of civil war anything about the gods being evil anything about the gods making mistakes or changing that so pretty much What's left always? Yeah, I have no idea. Yeah very little yeah So I just thought it was interesting that there was such heavy censorship here so that when as the kids grow they don't believe that Strife and a community is a thing that can happen. Yeah, but then you get all these fables that rather full of strife Yeah, but like kids are like kids are scared like kids Like fear is natural to a small child and so then the question is you can do two things you can try to eliminate all Stories about fear or you can give children scary stories that have the resolve at the end Anyway, so this is this is sort of some some psychology of myth that we can do but I wonder if Plato has been around Like think of a sub's fables or think of like the Hans Christian Andersen where they're like terrible stories like which is an ovens and that kind of thing Yeah, I don't think kids need fables to tell them how to do strife Hmm if you've if you've raised kids or tried to teach kids or been around kids, you know This drive happens naturally like default settings Right default setting is I'm gonna take your toy and break and break it because I didn't get one of the same or I want to or Like there's a whole lot of impulse and not a whole lot of impulse control I don't think they're thinking back to fables when they want to take each other's toys right right that censorship I don't think it's gonna do the job that he wants it to do anyway That's where this book ends is they sensory they talk about how God is totally immutable unchangeable and the problem of evil should be attributed to men And not gods and that's the end it's like it's all glaucon's concerns No, okay, the question of what justice is will span the rest of the Republic They're gonna spend the rest of the book building up the city and then at the end yeah They're gonna tie together kind of so book one was kind of the setup and like a weak version of what you could do And then book two was here's the set up for the rest of the entire thing which is building a state So that when we look at the state we can figure out what makes a man just just but we can see what makes a state Just but we'll learn more about that state in book three also Yeah, we're gonna keep learning about the state for a while They need to go through Organization of child rearing and social organizations and who governs and why and how to keep your warriors from murdering everyone and like It's gonna be a long journey.
I think all of it's interesting and I'm really excited to go for that You guys like book to you get to this yeah, listeners out there if you want me to keep going I know that I'm kind of going in to depth here Hologratus and I can either abandon the project or keep going. I'm super into this stuff I like it whenever I read when I was a kid or not kid when I was an undergrad and read Plato's Republic. I still remember I had the same feeling that I had now which is I wish the story ended before the luxury came in Of the city it seemed like that was there's something sort of satisfying it's like hobbitin right anyway And I'm glad I seem to feel that way to yeah, yeah, maybe yeah, maybe it's sort of hard to pin down what Plato thinks versus what Plato says Yeah, like does that first we talked about this last time with that first guy who gave the definition of justice and was like well I'm tired. It was a great it was a great definition.
Yeah, anyway So we have some shout outs to give because we talked about if you had listened to all hundred episodes Yeah, so we had some shout outs and then the first person gets a place of honor So congratulations Joel you were the first listener to email in and say you listen to a hundred episodes So you get a very special Sorry, ready one two three Also listen up a hundred episodes and Lauren and Micah and Brett and someone on iTunes was I didn't write down their name something drave drave in driven driven and I think these will look it up Yeah, so thank you to all those who have listened to the hundred episodes It's crazy to think that you did that yeah And if you want to go get the episodes if you're a new listener and you're like wow I can't even get the full hundred because the first you have dropped off iTunes Well, you can always go find them on our website classical stuff dot net. That's every episode can be found there as far as I know I've looked and listen recently so they're still there and I have something gentlemen to add to our common place book And remember how we used to do that Yeah, this is a poem that I was reading reading the other day and something jumped out and made me realize that this is the poem for the podcast Sure, this is called Oh, Tell Me the Truth About Love by WH Outin I'll read for you, okay Some say loves a little boy and some say it's a bird some say it makes the world go round some say that's absurd And when I asked the man next door who looked as if he knew his wife got very cross indeed and said it wouldn't do Does it look like a pair of pajamas or the ham in a temperance hotel? Does his odor remind me of llamas or has it a comforting smell? Is it prickly to touch as the hedge is or soft as the eider down fluff?
Is it sharp or quite smooth as the edges? Oh, Tell Me the Truth About Love. Our history books refer to it in cryptic little notes It's quite a common topic on the transatlantic boats I've found the subject mentioned in accounts of suicides and even seen it scribbled on the back of railway guides Does it how like an angry Atlassian or boom like a military band? Could one give a first-rate imitation or a saw on a Steinway grand?
Is it singing at parties a riot? Does it only like classical stuff? Will it stop when one wants to be quiet? Oh, tell me the truth about love Do you want me to finish it?
That was a shout out. It's a little bit longer so I won't finish it But yes, the truth about love is that it only likes classical stuff So that is now our poem our patron poem. Oh, tell me the truth about love I read it and I laughed and my wife who was a half asleep like it's not pretty Anyway So this has been classical stuff You should know you can email us at classical stuff at veritasacademy.net You can find us at classical stuff.net and on the website you can find all the back episodes that are slowly disappearing from iTunes like Like the things in member back to the future when they hold a photograph and like his family disappears That's like our podcast And so you can find those on classical stuff.net and you can tweet it as at classical stuff clssal stuff at twitter.net calm Calm, you'll hear that Jack Dorsey's Twitter got hacked this weekend and was tweeting out terrible things He's the CEO of Twitter and maybe laugh. Oh, that's that's rough rough day Monday morning Or I guess Tuesday morning since it's Labor Day anyway, and you do we have any last things before?
Have a great day. Well, thanks for listening and we will talk at you again later. Bye. Bye