I'm not me, but this is Zero Finance, just the podcast for trains of everything. Welcome. Today I'm joined by a page, The Loydy Taco Girl on the Verge by Pintip Dunn. We talk about the single white female-esque plot, how we feel about some essential narrative decisions and discuss how mental illness and affiction is handled.
It's always fun talking a page about a book, and this is no exception. On to the discussion. I'm here, once again, with page Loydy, talk about a book, page, how are you? I'm good, I'm excited.
You're excited. I'm excited. Okay, good. At least one of us is excited.
It's a book that I'm trying to be trying to have a balanced discussion. We're going to have a balanced discussion about fair and fair and balanced. Yes, this week we are in our little book club. We are discussing Girl on the Verge by Pintip Dunn.
I hope that's how you say your name. I may be wrong. I have butchered in the course of podcasting hundreds, if not thousands of names. So if this will be no different, Girl on the Verge is why a single white female?
Yeah, that's how the author described it, and I saw her speak on a panel at the Orlando library, and I was not familiar with single white females, so then I had to Google it. I was like, oh, okay. That sounds fun. Maybe fun's the wrong word for that.
It's fun. It's a lot fun. It's a lot of fun when someone tries to steal your identity and murders people. Yeah, I love that.
And I think the genre, why a mystery thriller was how it was listed. Yeah, I think that's accurate. I think it's the, I think we've baited about, is this really the genre? Is this really the genre?
But I think this is actually, yes, it is exactly that. I think it does categorize it fairly well. I struggle, Paige. Yeah, did you get to a point where did you almost not finish it?
No. Because I know I've been there before. I powered through. I powered through.
When I read, this book is not incredibly long. I read relatively quick. I just, and the chapters are extraordinarily short. So I, it wasn't that difficult even when I was going, oh, oh, like, you know, there were moments.
This is not properly where I finished a chapter, and I'm just like, I'm putting my hand on my head, I'm like, oh, no, Robbie, what are you? Come on, you can do this. You can finish this. It's okay.
It's just a book. You're not going to die. All right. So what were the things that got to you?
Like, what were the things that made you go, oh my god, is it tropey to you? It's not the tropey. I mean, there is a lot of that in here as a person who has seen single-wife female, and it might just be like, I didn't like single-wife female that much either back in the day. This is, and it's a, I think it is, before we get into any of my criticism.
I think it is, honestly, it's a big, this book, I think, kind of as a, oh, reason why I would explain, I think this book is trying to do too much, honestly. I think it is trying to be about, you know, about Khan and her struggles being biracial and trying to, you know, fit in in a small Kansas town, being Asian, and being the, you know, the strange one all the time, police in her own minds, and then also being a thriller, and being single-wife female, and being like, oh, there's those weird strange girls moving into their home, and they, the weird stuff starts happening, and they grow closer, and then weirder stuff starts happening, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think mixing those things, those two things together seems like too much to me, I frankly think that the half of the book that is not a thriller, I really enjoy, I really like, I like those types of stories in general, you know, the people who feel like they're the other who feel like, you know, either are, they look different, or they have something in their background that makes them stand out in a small, weird, you know, in a normal, predominantly white, boring, Midwest, Midwest town, she's strange, and she's trying to deal with that fact, and, you know, her dealings with her grandmother, and her mother, and having a father, and all that stuff. That stuff, actually, I think, is successful, and I like a lot.
It's the thriller stuff that made me, and it's not that, oh, it's not that it was, I guess I would call it predictable, but that's not, I don't think the word predictable doesn't mean bad to me. I'm fine with things. You can see the pattern as you're reading it. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's bad.
It just means like, oh, let's see what, how, like, usually, like, a lot of the time books where I think, oh, I know what's going to happen. I might be right, but the way that it's executed, the way that there's, you know, little twists on things here and there can change me and go, oh, this is a good, this is a good example of this trope of this story shape. It's not, doesn't mean it's bad. It just means, oh, well, there's only so many stories.
There's not really, being original is overrated, frankly. It doesn't. Like, there's plenty of good books, not original, and they're so great, because they, like, they twist a typical story in a, in a novel way. I, I think my biggest complaint is Con has the biggest case of the dumps that I can, what do you mean?
She has such a different experience reading this. I'm so curious. Okay, but do you just mean that she was a clueless with Shelly's intention? Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I'll say, I can, I can say the word yes, a dozen times more. Yes. She, I, I am willing to suspend my disbelief, and I'm willing to suspend my disbelief even further for a teenager, because they are dumber than normal people. That's put to find a point on it.
But teenagers are, you know, they're young. They don't know any better. But after Shelly, go to quote Shelly, we'll just call her Shelly. Yeah, Shelly, that's easier.
Yeah. I mean, that's what she's referred to throughout the whole book. Yeah, except for the, except for the worst chapter. I, I, there were multiple points of this book where I go, Con is smarter than this.
Anyone is smarter than this. You take anyone and put them in the situation where there's someone living with a person. And hit, yeah, maybe, yeah, Shelly is friendly at first, where it stands up for Con at first, and Con thinks that they're friends. But then Shelly does things where I go, if it was me, or I would think any rational person, teenage or not, emotionally vulnerable or not, they would go, Hey, mom, this strange teenage girl you invited into our home.
She stole my phone and and deleted all of my texts from my friends. But she told her mom that and her mom was like, Oh, well, do you have proof? How do you know you didn't do that? Like, that could be anything.
And I was really surprised that she I haven't read it. I feel like in this genre, we get a lot of the main character kind of being a little bit oblivious. And I was really surprised that they had a conversation where she confronted her mom at all, because, and her mom was really dismissive about it because of what the blackmail and secrets and stuff. And that was really hard for me with the mom where I was that kind of confirms like, Okay, obviously, there's a family secret, we already kind of knew this.
But why is the mom not taking this seriously? Because this is like creepy as heck that Shelly would be doing all these things. I mean, and it's not I mean, yes. And I also I think compounds the issue is when ever you have a story and everyone is just like, Oh, no, you're lying.
I'm like, well, I just want a confrontation at that point. I'm like, well, then con goat to Shelly and say, Hey, you deleted all my texts. We're not friends anymore. I don't want to talk to you anymore.
You or you're you're grabbing my boyfriend's crotch under the dinner table, or you're having you're texting him with my phone. Unbeknownst to me, like, it's about that fairly later. I know it's more about like when you think that she there should have been direct complex. She's like, Hey, Shelly, I mean, I don't know what kind of French you've had before, but let's sit down and talk about this.
Like, or I just don't, I don't know why yeah, see, I feel like Shelly to me, at least at first, started off manipulative in a familiar way to me where I've known people who have kind of twisted friendships to their benefit where the scene where Shelly made those popcorn balls and is waiting up, because con had the date, well, the impromptu date with the crush that she's had forever, and she's like, home late in front of the TV. And it's like, Oh, well, I waited for you, and I heard that these were your favorites. So I made them. And I guess, I guess, you know, you said a boy would never come between us, but look, look what's happening now.
And I'm just so sad because I have no friends and no one will ever love me. That was very relatable to me in the kinds of unhealthy friendships I've had in the past where someone is kind of twisting a situation to be like, poor me, pay attention to me now, like feel bad, give me love. So I kind of got that it started off where she seems like a really needy friend who had low self esteem. And then it kind of, I mean, very quickly ramped up into being creepier and creepier and creepier.
But yeah, there was an amount of her early behavior that I found to be kind of relatable for someone who doesn't have that emotional maturity. I don't know if that's the right term, but like someone who's really like, not projecting, but like insecure in their friendships, I guess, in being like manipulative, whether they mean to or not, and then clearly we could see Shelly meant to. So I liked the progression of it getting worse and worse and worse until it was really, really bad. Well, I don't know, maybe I'm just a heartless monster, but it happened my entire life.
Because I'm not a poet with that ever. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not putting up this shit. If there's a person living in my house and they're fucking around my phone, no, I'm not doing it. That's obviously like, it's just like, you know, it's that push and pull of your where there's lots of stuff, movies and books and whatever, or you're like, you're yelling at the protection, like, no, don't do that.
That's stupid. What's wrong with you? And I think everyone has their own, you know, line, where you know, you can something they can go up to that line and anything up that line, you are fine with yelling at them about it. You're like, come on.
And I just feel like a certain point like, I don't care how sad you are. I don't care. Oh, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
You got a facial scar that you make you feel, you know, gives you bad self esteem and makes you feel unappreciated and ugly or whatever. I'm very sorry about that. I'm sorry for everything. However, you will seem like a psychopath.
We are you're done. You're I'm out. I'm pulling the record. We're done.
Like, I have friends at this high school and you're costing you're like, I don't think that is that confusing when I have like a group of four friends and suddenly the new one is like, you should be friends with any of them. No, but then the thing because she's really defensive over Ashley, like I've known Ashley forever. No way. She's a true blue friend.
And then the thing with Ashley in the bathroom where Ashley was like, everyone's talking about how the boy that's supposed to like me now prefers you. And it's so embarrassing. And how could you do this to me? And cons just like, I was just horribly embarrassed and humiliated.
And what do you mean? Why are you focusing on this boy? We're supposed to be best friends. And I feel like that was the moment where it their friendship kind of took a pause.
And then like, like every time she came back to her friends, there was some sort of event or Shelly kind of weaseled her way between them. And that that felt kind of normal high school friendship to me where stuff happens and people change. And you know, sometimes someone can manipulate them manipulate a situation and kind of like pull a friend away from another group away from their core friendship group kind of thing. Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe we have to had a lot of friendship experience where I'm just like, Oh, I feel this pain. I mean, I, I don't know, I don't I never really thought about my own relationships or friendships and how they are if they're typical or not. I don't know. I still have I'm still friendly friends with a lot of people I do in high school, at least the core, you know, that core inner circle.
I've still talked to them, still text them. I think I have throughout my life, I've tried to spend a lot of effort to make sure that I, you know, are my important friendships last. Yeah, for sure. And whenever I, you know, I'm, I do, I do know, I think that I am very, very empathetic and not empathetic meaning like, Oh, I'm, I feel for people means like I'm, I'm very perceptive emotionally about how if someone's trying to manipulate me, I'm pretty, I'm pretty perceptive.
Which is a skill. That's, you know, I didn't do that. Not everyone has pure intentions. Like, no, I didn't really, I don't think I ever tried to cultivate it.
I just happened. I don't know. I can, I'm pretty good at reading people's emotions and what if they're happier if they're sad or if they want, if they want something for me, in particular, if people are actually, you know, being honest with me. So I don't, I don't, I usually people like Shelly, they don't get in the door.
They don't, I don't let them in at all. They're, I'm just like, Oh, you clearly are needy and not in like not in like, Oh, if I'm just your friend, you'll, it'll be not like, Oh, you're missing, you need a friend and everything will be okay. It's more like, Oh, if I'm your friend, you're going to cause a lot of problems. Cause that's not, well, you need to get rid of, you have problems that are not, Oh, I need a friend.
I think the, the, okay, I'm gonna ask you page what you thought about this. This is the, this is the, the one moment I think that stands out about everything else. And it made me, it made me yell a little bit. Okay, I'm right.
It's when, okay, so early on, uh, Shelly, Shelly moves in and con is in her room and she sees Shelly's necklace. Yes. And it has two letters. It was a, it's like a BFF necklace.
We know a heart and two halves, uh, for you listeners out there who haven't read it, uh, and it has two letters. And what is an S? And you're, and so Khan immediately thinks, Oh, this is, this is Shelly's and her friend's necklace that Shelly has reclaimed the other half because she lost a friendship. I'm like, Okay, cool.
Makes sense. And then, but then later, Khan goes on her little private detective journey. Yes. Where she goes to ostensibly what a Shelly's old neighborhood and to just investigate, uh, the, the, the details of what happened prior to Shelly, including the details of what she thinks is her mother's death.
Right. Which is, she was, she learns that who we think is Shelly's mother at this, or at least she thinks of Shelly's mother. I immediately thought that's not her mom. Uh, but regardless, we are con certainly thinks that she learns that Shelly's mother would hang herself in a church and gave herself the same scar that Shelly has.
And then she, as well, she's talking, she's interviewing all the neighbors we're trying to. I think she finally finds one talkable lady who's giving her spikes drinks, which I was like, not okay. No, not okay. We've all met that old lady, but old lady, not okay.
Not okay for a person you just met. Don't be spiking the drink. That's very bad. Um, but I mean, I think that's, it's all like, I think that sells like, it does a good job of selling the kind of weirdness of the situation and like even this person who is friendly, extremely uncomfortable though.
I was like, ew, like a hard lemonade. She is in high school. Like, what are you doing? Like, which is fine.
The scene was uncomfortable anyway. Like, I don't think it was a bad detail to have in there. I just, you know, I think that worked. I think that it's more, it's more general plotting.
I think ultimately is the thing that bothers me more than the smaller details in anyone's scene, because ultimately I think the smaller details of the smaller details of the pros actually are usually pretty good. It's when she discovers that, oh, there was another girl there and she's also, and she's missing or something. Like, I can't remember the fine details about what she was actually told, but obviously that girl is no longer around. This other girl, that's not Shelley.
And so that other girl's mom would have, like what happened in, you know, Constrain pieces all together. And maybe I've read too many suspense mystery thrillers in my life. Maybe I'm, I'm aware that this is a mystery story and Con is only a character in it, even though she is now basically playing private detective. My immediate thought, and I had suspicions of this the entire time, but my immediate thought was, oh, Shelley's not Shelley.
This is, she's clearly not Shelley. She's clearly the other girl. She's clearly killed people before. And, you know, and that's not a mystery to us because of an, I'm on my other question for you, but we're gonna, that's the next question.
I, I, at a certain point, I go, Con, and this is the point where I go, Con, you gotta be smarter. You gotta go. And like, it's not like there isn't like, she's already incredibly suspicious. She's going, she's driving out the middle of nowhere to, you know, to investigate this girl.
She clearly is very suspicious. She's already seen the necklace. My immediate job is like, oh, she is a faking our identity. She is not who she says she is.
She has killed some of these people. I don't know exactly who, because she doesn't actually say. But come on, just, it's just one more step. It's, it's just the next step is very much like, real, like, Hey, that necklace had two letters on it.
You have evidence. There's this other girl. Make sure you've already see her, like, try and like, start dressing like you and like, obviously be emotionally manipulative to you. This makes me like, like, squeeze, my hands are squeezing a fist.
I'm just like shaking. I was okay with, with figuring it out before she figured it out, especially since normally I call plots pretty quick. So I was fine with that. I, I didn't realize until probably the cabin that, oh, she's not just Riley.
She's someone before Riley. And like, you know what I mean? Like, like, this is, this is a long game. But yeah, so I was fine with her.
I think for me, it would have been a little bit, I guess, more believable if she had figured that out before she went to go see her in jail. Although I did kind of like that reveal. I'm like, well, she's not going to find out to the end. This is an okay place to find out.
I liked that monologue where not monologue, but the line is something that Shelly says, like, whenever cons like, you don't even look like me. I don't even know how I could have thought maybe we were related. And she says something like, it's really easy to make people see what they want to see once the idea is there. And I thought that was very probably true and also like perfectly creepy and cryptic for the character.
Yeah. And I loved the detail about the necklace. Well, so the other question I think you were probably going to ask about it slipping into a third person for what was going on with Shelly. I personally loved that.
I thought, I thought the author did it fairly seamlessly where it always left me feeling very like on edge, not to make a pun with the oh no, that's not it's a girl on the verge of the different book. But it made me feel like very like interested sufficiently creeped out. I've really liked the prose, I guess, like the way that the way that she worded things whenever it was Kelly Shelley's limited point of view and just like giving us little tidbits of creepy information here and there enough to like keep me interested. I really enjoyed that.
I thought it was creepy and interesting and like a good way to not just have it in Khan's point of view, but also give us a little bit about what's going on with Shelly. I can tell you are not a fan. But I really liked it. I thought it was a good, a good use of switching point of views, personally, for sure.
It's I'm not you're allowed to like, which like anyone is I'm not I don't want to. This is a a balanced discussion. So that was for anyone listening. That was the positive.
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be mean. I'm just gonna say I did not I did not enjoy the Shelly chapters. Okay. I did not enjoy them.
Not that they were like written poorly or the fact that they shifted person like shifted to their person. I don't that doesn't bother me either. It's I just don't like that they exist. Okay.
I don't because I understand I like it. I think it comes down to a choice by her by the author. And I think it's a choice that I would probably go the other way with. Mm.
Good. Would you do all Shelly's perspective? If you would not do I would have zero Shelly. No Shelly at all.
I would keep it with con and and that does at times it's challenging. It's challenging because there's certain action that is taking place and I think that like I can see pragmatically why you would do that is because there's certain action actions that take place in the book where you know we want to see what's happening with Shelly you know we want to see oh Shelly's killing her friends Shelly's beating up old ladies. The worst. Yeah.
She lives at least. I'm so glad we're Ashley. Mm hmm. There's yeah.
There you know I think there has to be body count for this book to work anyway but you know it doesn't make me feel better when you're like oh that poor girl got murdered great. I'm like oh she's a true blue friend. I'm so glad she's standing up and and catching this girl and calling her out on her her bad behavior and then she immediately got murdered. Yeah.
It's more about I mean and so you have to like if you don't have those chapters from Shelly's perspective or at least sort of you know third person Shelly. If you don't have those you're not you're it's just going to be con going somewhere coming back to news of someone's debt or someone's hurt and you know we still get those chapters but we also we see the action we see it happen and you know I think that choice is well we show the reader we show the reader Shelly obviously being unstable mentally Shelly clearly being violent and manipulative throughout the entire book pretty much and by giving the reader this knowledge that con doesn't have for the most part it is dialing it's it's going to dial up the tension it's going to make them feel uncomfortable it's going to make them feel awkward and and worry and anxious about oh no con is doing these things that she doesn't know you know yeah I also did you I feel like their other purpose the third person Shelly chapters were to show the very like obviously not as extreme but the parallels in thinking of I'm an outsider I want to belong because both con and Shelly have that in their inner monologues it's just very twisted for Shelly and so I think in the beginning the very first chapter with con it's like I don't feel like I look like I belong when I'm visiting Thailand and I don't feel like I look like I belong in my small town of Kansas and I just wish that I could fit somewhere I wish that I I wish that she just wishes that she could just fit in and then we get to Shelly who also has that same narrative of not not not not in the same way but she also wishes that she could fit in and feel like she belongs and be one of those girls and it's just at the end of it I think we get con like being like you know what I like who I am and I'm not gonna ever try to manipulate or twist myself into something but I'm not and I like to that I think I think it for me I liked the extreme where Shelly was like con would never know how it feels to not belong and she's pretty and like she doesn't she like fully doesn't get that other people like have emotions and feelings and she has like no empathy and it was just it was really interesting to me that they had she the author kind of did the like the dark side and the light side of that sort of like feeling like you don't belong mindset yeah so that that worked for me okay but I also I also get that you reading the book might be like well I'm curious how this would read without all the Shelly chapters if it was only in first person you know I mean it's I think I I would prefer the mystery because I think all it didn't make me more anxious about con it just made me frustrated okay knowing knowing that oh knowing all this information for sure like yes absolutely Shelley is absolutely unstable he's absolutely trying to manipulate like I that doesn't in like I think there is it I also have zero degree of I don't know if it's intended us intended for us to feel any empathy for Shelly I assume there's supposed to be a little I didn't at the beginning you know and I also knew that she was gonna I thought there might be a point when we learned enough about her backstory where I felt empathy but I really just couldn't because of how awful she was I still found her like intriguing I also really like like have you seen that show on Netflix I know it's also a book but I haven't read it that you show oh my god see I'm and it creeps me out and I can only watch a couple episodes but it's basically a guy who's a terrible stalker trying to get the girl that he likes and like totally being like creepy and manipulative and awful and I find it like fascinating but also horrible and creepy and I can only consume very little of it but yeah so I think that also might have been why I like the Shelly chapters I like that like weird like peek into someone's mind I guess yeah I'm it I want to you know I think the best villains were antagonist even you know are ones that you can empathize with and you can understand why they do a certain thing you know why did they do this why did they do that and you go well I understand why I don't necessarily agree with it you know usually it's they they went too far they you know they have a they have a good motive for why they did a thing but they then overstep what you think is reasonable you know for whatever whatever they do and I don't I don't know why Shelly is doing a lot like I feel I've read you know those I don't think those chapters motivate and tell me enough why Shelly is doing what she's doing why she's trying to you know she says she feels like an outsider and you know we we are told that she was like the daughter of like a grifter con artist who is used during her cons and I don't know if that's on purpose that con is named con and there's the con artist evolved I don't know it's a little strange to me I don't know it probably is but and you know we don't really know like I that's what I was actually a little one waiting for I was waiting for times with Shelly as a child I was waiting for more stories of her getting like we hear her tell her stories you know and when she's absolutely insane and has people chained to beds and stuff yeah and at that point I don't care Shelly I'm sorry I don't care about any of your garbage you're you're you're stung in and people you know there's a lot of chain of people to beds and being on pride of stuff you've fingernails whatever Oh my god I thought that was sorry you were gonna make a point then I got excited okay that's right but you finished first then I was gonna say I wanted that earlier you know I wanted you know if we see her history we see and we and it's already the mystery is already basically spoiled at that I guess I don't know I don't know if the writer she expects us to know oh Shelly's Shelly's not Riley Shelly's and Riley she's not even Riley you know she was Riley because that's also another assumed identity she's all she's only been assumed identity so for years now and I don't know if that's you know maybe that's giving it away too early but I wanted that's I was like waiting for okay she had a terrible childhood and it's basically disassociated her from humanity you know she is no longer you know she doesn't know what being humans like because she's never experienced it firsthand and she's only been in manipulative relationships so that's what she thinks relationships are she thinks that's what you do to people who are you love you know you manipulate them you it's all about like weird exchanges of like yes I did I made you popcorn balls so in return you will be my slave and it's like I'm I assume that's how her mother treated her you know like my mother would give her a treat and then expect her to you know to turn the world for her and I would love those like to get some that get that information to get see those see her childhood at time see go back flashback or whatever however you want to do it and have that connection of like okay I understand a little bit more why Shelly's the way she is why she does these things and I think that would help connect me to that theme you mentioned about how you know con and Shelly both feel like they're outside or see like their others and you know we get that with con you know we because we it's first person I think it's we're extremely connected to her it's very clear like her whether her conversations with her grandmother we do get time with her as a little girl even though it's it's really short but yeah there's something and in those conversations with her grandmother I think really nail at home like are you a good Thai girl you know like I can't give you this necklace you know it's yeah and that's like using that necklace as a way of like hey are you connected to your culture I mean like it's it's really simple but I think that's all it has to be I think it works relatively well for giving us that oh she is very she like you know this is that push pull of like oh is she a normal white girl or is she a Thai girl that her grandmother will love and when she respectable said her said her with you know what cultural norms of different places expecting different things from her and all I got from Shelly's backstory in those Shelly chapters is she's unstable and she needs therapy and you know she needs to go she needs probably some medication of some sort or she needs like she needs help mental health and that's the other I don't want to put this too much on this book it's a largely a problem with you know thrillers mysteries horror in general lots of genres you know when you're looking when you need like a evil villain that is it supernatural you know if it's a supernatural monster spooky monster and it doesn't need to be it can be anything it doesn't matter but when it's a human the other day like is this just a person who has mental health problems and that's that's a good question you know and like if that's the villain and you're like she's just like like if she if she went to like a doctor if she went to an institution and like she talked to people and took medicine would she still be Shelly well it seems you know whether there's it definitely seems like whether there's supposed to be any sort of mental health stuff it's it I mean the way that she was raised she turned out the way that she did and it was a lot of like learned behavior but I mean I don't know for where she's at in the book yeah I mean I guess now I'm trying to think if there was any sort of like a moment of like hey Shelly this isn't normal I think you need help like where would it have been in the book if it would have changed the tone at all oh I mean it I think it totally changes the book so I understand why it's not there and I think it's it's it's it's it's hard frankly yeah it's hard to make because for a long long time they're an easy way to go to to make a villain to make an antagonist in they're just a human isn't they're they're crazy you know they do these things they do these things that are irrational they do these things that are logical because they're they're crazy because they're they're insane as you would say and I you know we are still as a culture still adjusting to the effects of mental health and how you know therapy and medication can absolutely change people's lives and basically make them different people make them you know make the normal members of society versus like you know people who cannot basically live in a normal society because of whatever condition they have and it's not like it's now it's not it's certainly not like it's normal even there's still tons of stigma about people who go to therapy or stigma people take medication you know whether it be antidepressants or you know mood stigma like whatever whatever it is there's still tons of stigma about that even though it's always is you know making you feel better and act better and you know not there's still those stupid yeah I mean I know it's not I'm also going to therapy it's not a it's not a big deal I think I think I would hopefully a part of Shelley's off-screen or not off-screen off-page ruling because last week's art she did murder people so hopefully a part of her ruling is uh is to get some psychological care that she desperately needs patrons I hate to make this to you but if she was in the American judicial system and she's in the American penal system she's probably not gonna help that's real sad and that's a different podcast it's a different podcast it's a different book but I think that's the thing it's it's harder and harder to it's hard for me to disconnect all that stuff to cut all that stuff off of when I'm reading a book and you know like certain things like they're so campy or so purposely like unrealistic it doesn't matter um but you know if we're just like hey this is a normal high school and this is a normal girl we're ostensibly you know those questions come a little bit quicker to the surface and I think I don't know that's why I'm like I don't want the Shelley chapters I don't want to see I want I want the mystery even if it's not you know it's not like a it's not that deep in it's not that deep in twisty of an of an mystery honestly but frankly it doesn't need to be um so I rather have it like oh what is Shelley you know is she you know like if you don't have those Shelley chapters it's that early part where they're still tiling it up to when she is you know killing people there's still always that question of like maybe she is telling the truth maybe she didn't maybe she's not the one maybe she did take her phone maybe it was just some weird technical glitch maybe whatever like you can it's a little bit easier for me to suspend my disbelief a little bit further because I don't I don't know if Shelley is actually you know a disturbed person or not who is you know trying to assume this girl's identity and I don't really need to see you know Shelley confront or ash confront Shelley or Shelley beat up an old lady um I I don't know I think that's those are the two things there's very much like I wanted gone to be more proactive I wanted her to be a little bit smarter and I don't I kind of wanted Shelley to remain more of a mystery um the last chapter as well when they they go she goes to talk to her in jail uh it didn't feel like the same Shelley to me yeah um I mean I mean all I that made sense to me because all of her her kind of like fake identity had been like stripped away like there was an amount of her manipulative self that she was putting like the person that she was trying to be was kind of gone like she was a little bit more of like kind of a shell oh she's in the word shell in her name Shelley doesn't anyway she just like you know like that she just seemed off and that's kind of how I took it where she just wasn't fully pretending anymore um so that's that's how I because I noticed there was a shift in her and I figured that that was the intent but it was just that she was no longer putting up appearances I guess yeah I mean I understand why it also comes off as very explaining like hey I can see that honestly I was a fan of the book but we did get a lot of answers from her I guess like vague answers but still like there was a little bit of like a the last chapter was a little bit more of like that sort of confession scene and like you know like that that classic villain like we're really not that different to you and I which um I I think if I'm taking a minute because I did really enjoy the book and I'm being critical I think my favorite part of the last chapter was her like feeling like she could finally be herself and and that sort of thing but I don't necessarily think that she needed to visit Shelley and jail like if if I'm kind of thinking about it objectively it could have been kind of one of those wrap-ups where we find out like it was in the news that Shelley wasn't even who she said she was you know like that sort of thing I get in mind the scene but I don't know if it was totally necessary I think honestly I like I don't mind the idea of like Shelley or of con going to face Shelley face to face like actually reclaiming that like I think that is actually not a bad idea it's more like I would just having you know like having Shelley just be like hey I am stripped of all the artifice and I'm just gene now because I don't have that real identity if I had you know if I had empathized more with her through the rest of the book seeing her at this point would make me feel a degree that before her because I go oh now she is left with nothing right and she is going to she's like hey you know give like kind of vape like and I it's it's it's prop this feels very difficult where you're that that ask of like hey we need to make this antagonist feel feel real and feel we have to feel sad for her even though she's done terrible things and we need to communicate that Shelley herself or Jane at this point is giving a degree of answers to con because she feels bad for what she's what she did to con right and it didn't I didn't get much of that I got mostly like it feels like a different character to me and it feels like someone who is just literally telling me what all this stuff means like I got confused along the way and I think I I don't really care you know I don't really care at this point I don't care about all the background details right I care about I want more of a closure between these two people and their relationship and I think thematically it gets there I think thematically it's very much like yeah you know con is like I'm my own person now I don't you know I can do what I want and be I don't have I'm not gonna think so much about am I being a good tiger or am I being true to you know being a white girl in Kansas I'm not gonna try and do lip service to either of these cultures I'm just gonna be me and not worry so much about it I think it does a good job at that and you know I think it does in the same way you know they have she has Shelly say yeah you know I think you and I are the same and blah blah blah blah but I just wanted like hey two people like communicating like they were friends for a moment and then and con actually like demonstrating that betrayal and like dropping I think that's the other thing that was a little bit of a whiplash for me was those Shelly chapters one they're in third person so you are there's a layer of in between us and her right and even then it feels like they are written like she's a robot like she is like hey just like hey I need to do this is okay but like I need to be a friend with this person and if I do this everyone will love me everyone will and I think I would have liked if we're gonna go this far have the last chapter be a Shelly chapter oh that's interesting and be third person Shelly and have you know or make it finally first person Shelly like Shelly is now in jail and has lost everything and so that degree of artifice that she has been caring with her as dropped maybe but it seems like she's not apologetic you know no she definitely seems like like she lost this round I wouldn't be surprised if she escapes jail and does it again you know like or she's somehow manipulated her way into impersonating a prison guard or whatever but yeah I think she does seem a little bit more defeated at the end but that's an interesting thought if it had been from her perspective how that would have felt I don't think we would have gotten that like triumphant necklace moment you know yeah and I think that's ultimately what I said earlier is like I feel like this book is trying to do too much where like uh I like the writer itself she's like I always wanted a right character that looked like me you know I always wanted to have a character that dealt with the same things I dealt with and I would I want this book that's not a I just want this book that's just like it's not like I feel like you would like this as a contemporary contemporary like contemporary like a romance on a play because dancer boy dancer boy cute I like to answer I like I like I like the romance stuff I like the teenager stuff you know I thought the romance stuff was really cute I liked because normally I'm not down as much with like the instalove sort of thing where but I think it worked because they both had crushes on each other for like ever so for them to like like they both secretly had crushes what for years on each other and then they're like finally admit it and they're like smooching a bunch and I was like okay this works because you like each other a lot and you've been checking each other out for for again years um I liked him I liked him a lot he was a he felt like like a pure sweet boy who got trapped in a horror movie and a lot of this book actually you said the word camp earlier it kind of gave me campy like late 80s early 90s thriller movie with like teen protagonist um and I think that might have been another reason why I enjoyed it a little like a lot um I guess kind of trying to think not quite Heathers but like that sort of genre you know like and I guess that's 80s but you know like there was there was an element of that where it felt even though it was set nowadays it kind of to me had this like 80s movie like gloss over top of it I liked all of the stuff that was not the thriller plot like I liked I like I would love to have see this writer write a like YA you know contemporary romance or whatever like I think that's the stuff I liked about this I don't having that also co-exist very well to a thriller plot where you know Shelley's trying to look exactly like you know an Asian girl I'm like that is also there's I think there's a degree of like like of weird whitewashing you know stuff that's mixed in with that like a piece of white people trying to you know appropriate cultures and stuff like that and it's not really confronted at all in this and you know whenever I I think that's like also like there's there's a lot there there's a lot to dissect there you could make an entire book about that probably in the same kind of not that different of a story shape of you know where it's not a thriller it's more of like it's more like oh she has a friend and the friends like oh you look so exotic and her explaining a friend like I don't want to look exotic and exotic is actually like like a terrible it's not that it's mean it's just that I don't you know I'm a person I am not like a doll you know don't talk about me like that yeah definitely touched on the microaggressions and like since it was first person I think it like did it in a way where she was like this doesn't make me feel good but they're my friends and I don't want to make it a big deal which is probably really relatable to a lot of people you know like where I want to stand up for myself but also I don't want to be alienated and she probably doesn't mean it that way like I feel like because it was from her first person lens that the hey it's not okay came from an inner monologue instead of and something being outwardly told to characters because Khan definitely didn't react well to Shelly she was like um you look Asian what like what what are you doing like yeah and Shelly was just so oh do I look pretty now we look like sisters that it was kind of kind of like okay so I mean I think yeah it's not it's more like I it's that's adding another well yes it is not comfortable but I mean I think trying to put more it's already like asking too much of the book I think you know to try and do more with that than just have it be window dressing for the assumed identity thing um I don't know she has a bunch of other books out it looks like I saw that too yeah so if uh I wonder how many are not thrillers well that's there's there's one called malice and it looks like a lot of some sci-fi stuff yeah sir cross looks really good anyways anyways let's talk about every book she's ever written yeah have a page of question for you have you ever read any uh like old Christopher Pike books I have not wait now I'm you're probably you're probably a little too young for them is my guess just so just a couple years this this uh no I have not you know the you would know the cover yes you would know the covers if you they're very they are you know if you look up google and search Christopher Pike and like they were like well they were why he threw that was a actual like genre they were they were kind of I read them when I was a kid oh my god I remember seeing these I don't think I read any of these um but I definitely saw these at the library mmm there the covers are very recognizable because they're like these different colors and like you know they're all like neon and they're like late 80s early 90s stuff and I think that's I don't know I kind of want to go back and reread some of those at some point because I'm really curious I like them then because they were like my intro into Stephen King and like more serious art because they were like yeah there's murders and it's it's campy it's if you're like if you're looking for like campy yeah we I mean stuff that's also that um octobers coming up so that's very true uh they remind me a lot of like of like you know what I know what you did last summer kind of like that kind of vibe kind of vibe um I don't know I don't know I was gonna say I picked out a lot of prose I like it stuff as I was going yeah that I thought was interesting and usually pretty pretty good like it's my problem really isn't with the writing like quote-unquote it's more of just like decisions about how what Khan does about what was included what's not included I also I don't know if I there's a couple moments there's a couple moments in here where it feels like they like she is insinuating like a like I don't know about it it feels like it's like subtly making the tension between Khan and Shelly semi-romantic or semi- really I don't like it's not it's here and there like there's one particular spot and I think it might just be like well because it's at where it was chapter is this it's relatively early on um chapter yeah it's chapter four um you know they haven't even known each other for very long and there's like there's a right at the end of the chapter um Shelly is looking at Shelly's looking at Khan's clothes and the Khan is designed so she's made so good and it's at the very end quote and yet as her face comes alive while she fingers my favorite skirt I wonder if this must be how it feels to have a sister she fingers my favorite skirt I don't think that's meant to be essential I think if it's not I would say don't use the word fingers yeah I think that I think that might have just been a word choice thing because uh you know gosh yeah I don't know if I want to jump any further into that yes I understand it's just I whenever I see something like that I'm like okay like I just have a sexual utterance I think it was I think it's supposed to be like you know if you were like thumbing through like yeah I know fingers doesn't necessarily have to have sexual conversation but I where is your mind Robbie my goodness hey I don't feel like that I it's that uh a crazy uh an assumption when I see the words fingers on my page regardless of what it's not this is not children's book there's people dying in this book I would assume you would know your reader and your audience and especially if it's a teenager um there's also I assume this is incorrect this has to be intentional to me where uh they're they're making out they're smooching uh her dancer boy yeah yeah because it's cancer boy's name uh whatever Ethan is the name who cares you see the muscles in his back who cares what his name is uh he their case of their smooch and she says I'm drowning here later on I hope he feels one-tenth of the tsunami he's creating in me yeah that's that's that's words I was just look why she's she's being she's being it's being delicate I understand I'm just just making you that that see because the tsunami of emotion uh of course I'm just saying that that's the presence of that later on made me question the earlier the earlier quote when you're very clearly like pulling down into like romance campiness and stuff like that using these metaphors I go okay that's there that makes sense sometimes when you're writing romantic scenes they sound you are writing them innocently just trying to like demonstrate building of feeling an emotion uh and then you look at what you've written and then you go oh um so you know there's always a chance that it wasn't meant to be and it just comes off that way I don't know so I can't say for certain it's I mean it's not bad I don't mind it at all honestly I like the their their scenes together are really cute and charming and I think it does it's not like comics don't break my heart where they're like these chaste teenagers who just hold hands all the time they're like hey we've had crushes on each other for a long time let's kiss we're gonna go make out for a while and you're like yeah that sounds about right yeah I feel like the heat level felt like appropriate it wasn't um it wasn't like too sexy but it also wasn't like too innocent like it felt it felt like it was a an appropriate heat level for this book appropriate level it's like a signal you go to a Thai restaurant and they're like hey how many that's all uh there was a at indie book fest there's a lot of romance writers and I've now gotten like accustomed to like oh what heat level are you for romance books like you'll be like shopping at a vendor room and they're like oh this is this one's really spicy and I love it I think it's like the cutest way to describe like this is uh this is high heat over here and then oh this is this is this is my old five-a-long shillings and you have the sweet mild and then it just goes up from there hot national chicken hot you know it's sriracha hot yeah ghost pepper hot how you know that's paranormal romance ghost pepper oh but doom chat um it's pretty good that's a solid joke you should you should hold on to that one page you might use somewhere yeah that's pretty good yeah you should do that um I don't know I like it's not it's not the new like I just want to have something to do with the pros it's more just like decisions that I would go like uh I feel like I I would also I think that's the one I don't know I was never are we supposed to be worried that Khan is gonna die I was worried that she might die actually there was a point when I thought that it might end with a first person or it might end either in third person or fourth person where we think it's Shelley or no I'm sorry where we think it's Khan and it turns out to be Shelley and that's actually there was a moment when that's where I thought it might be going um and I was nervous about that where it was um particularly when they were in the mountain cabin um whenever she goes out to get help and then you don't see them for a while I was curious if at some point in time Shelley was gonna like they were gonna swap I like that yeah so so there was um it had me in suspense for for that happening and I was very scared that because I'm just like I just want her and Ethan to be happy I want her to recover from all this trauma um yeah which is a lot of trauma it's not great no yeah getting chained to bed so having your boyfriend stun gun like a dozen times yeah that's very bad that's yeah that it's yeah that it's always so interesting because I feel like our book tastes like it definitely intersects but it's very different so because I read this book and I've just been like raving about it and then before we started the call you were like all right so you're ready and like you know but it's been flip-flop in the past where there were there have been some books that I've liked some books I haven't and it's always interesting to hear like that there could be things in a story that you really liked that someone else didn't and just I don't know there's you know it's a book for everyone but not every book is for everyone so yeah no I mean I think that's the I think that's an interesting thing you bring up because I've seen a lot of this I don't know it's not even about books but like in art in general where like people are there like some people expect everyone to like everything or for there's like a weird zeitgeist about like how certain things are golden and perfect and everyone should love them no matter who you are this is a perfect thing how can you not like it and it doesn't exist there is not nothing that is there's no like oh you can I think there are certain things that you can go oh I can recognize the craft in it whether it's a book or movie or music or whatever it is you can go oh that person certainly is talented and put a lot of work into this or the team did or whatever but I mean it's no not like it for whatever reason and that's okay I like my own books I don't expect everyone to like them and I don't think anyone should expect to like anything even if it's quote unquote good you know like I I think I had this about like a comic book I reviewed it on my last comic book I guess it was very much like this is I can recognize this is good I don't want it though you know it's not for me and that's fine it's okay that I think there's a lot of people on the internet like why is it this for me and I'm like well it's okay that everything there's a lot of stuff out there not everything is for you it's okay to try and read different things or you know to see if it is and then you get it you get you understand your taste better and you understand your own helps you understand better as a person even that's the power of reading it helps you understand your own your own mind a little bit I don't know I don't think I wouldn't say girl leverage is bad I think it's not for me yeah that's totally fair but there's also a book called girls on the verge yeah I saw that I was trying to find this book and I was like that's not the right book and I'm like oh it's because there's an s there yeah I was searching I'm like wait a minute okay that's a different it's just the way things work sometimes there's turns out there's a finite amount of words yeah and so if you want to title something you have to sometimes it's going to be very close to something else I am currently dealing with that myself um forever forever forever yeah that's forever um anything else you want to add page I don't think so no okay uh page and I next time the next time we get together next time we talk uh we'll be we'll be discussing wilder girls by Rory power which is a spectacular name Rory yes Rory power that's very good water girls is a like sci-fi why sci-fi thriller I think that's at least what it's categorized as we'll see when we read it and we're like yeah the cover is great I think that's what really drew me in it's a very good cover um but we talk about that next time you guys can read along with us if you want and and and know what we're talking about when we're talking about the book um page where can people find your books online marketing by yourself oh man you can find all my books on Amazon uh yeah that's I mean that's the best place honestly 2-day shipping uh Barnes & Noble dot com has confidence as well as book depository and yeah they're all over the place yeah and uh indie book fest is well actually when is this podcast coming out I have no idea okay it might have happened already when does it happen it might be happening uh first week of August I don't think we're gonna make it a time oh man that's the thing that I just did how cool a lot of fun I'm all over the internet so yeah there'll be links on the show notes uh where pages pages literally at every website yeah every single website she's there it seems she's it's driven I post the show notes every every time I do this and it's like just links of like all the places I mean you have to it's important have a brand as I've been told um thank you for us all right thanks page for joining thanks for having me thanks again to page for joining me you can find me on twitter at Robbie Norman my website is a Robbie Norman dot com you'll find links there for my other podcasts and that my newest horror novel truth available now please check it out the show's website is serophenassus.com you can follow our facebook page at facebook.com slash serophenassus if you like the show please give it a five-star review on apple podcast or wherever you listen it helps me out helps show out helps get it more listeners tell your friends subscribe all those things you know podcast stuff I appreciate it until next time thanks for being a fan