Join us in this is a serial financis the podcast for fans of everything welcome today I'm joined by Eric Zeig and I to talk about the video game outer wilds There are many spoilers contained within so turn back now if you haven't played it yet, and I do suggest you play it It's a spectacular game and Eric and I dissected many secrets We talked about the shifting premise of the game the puzzles that befuddled us and the game's difficulty if it's deserved It was a great chat. I hope you enjoy it on a discussion Hello everyone. I'm here with Eric Zeig and I and we're gonna talk about a video game Eric Is that what they're called Eric? How are you?
I'm well. You doing all right? I'm doing all right Even after the heat death of the universe. Yeah, I mean let's hope we can keep this conversation at 22 minutes Oh, no, we are gonna be discussing outer wilds today.
I Spoilers spoilers spoilers spoilers Yeah, this game is it's more important for this game than most games if you haven't played the outer wilds And you don't want to be spoiled do not listen because we are gonna dig in deep and there's lots of mystery in this game So if you care about that, I would encourage you to go play through this game without listening I would I would also like we Robbie sold me on it Having not said a whole lot when he checked in with it a couple of weeks ago. It has become one of my all-time favorite games It's wonderful. It's tremendous. I encourage you right now if you have just sort of idly started playing this this podcast Do not listen to the rest of it go and buy yourself a copy of how for wilds and my by God play it It is really truly excellent.
It is on the epic store I've heard it's also on Xbox. Okay Xbox 360, which is pretty cool Xbox Xbox one. You mean yeah, I'm sorry I'm I'm I'm you have to travel you have to travel into the past to buy this game. I don't Have a switch, okay, I know The console I had before that was a fucking we I'm not a console guy is available on the epic story I know Xbox one earlier tells me yeah, you know It is a controller game coming coming coming to a scene to coming to it I would imagine in like yeah nine months a year after I imagine yes It is on it is on the steam store With a coming soon deal so I can I can promise it's a thing but still just go get it go.
Yeah, sorry It's epic store. It's it. It's good to have multiple marketplaces. It's good for developers.
It's good for us a consumer It's good not to have an app lease. There's nothing wrong with using a different service. Right. It just it is not really upset me that much No, it doesn't bother me at all honestly because I bought this game for like $12 Because I bought it when the the epic was giving $10 off any game over $15.
Yeah, it's about like three games because hey It's that's a great deal for a game that costs $25. I bought it for 15 or whatever it was our wilds is Hard to encapsulate yeah, it's hard to get like it's like missed in space Mm-hmm. It is very it is super missed like yeah, it is it is a I would call it a venture game Yeah, but there's still there's a lot of like unlike many adventure games where you're just like pointing and clicking on things And solving puzzles. There is mechanical difficulty to this because you have to do platforming basically It's it's pretty positive as well.
I'd say but it's Really in a very adventure sort of way. I mean there's puzzles, but I mean there's plenty of puzzles But I don't have to like in a normal adventure game most point click adventure games I don't have to jump with my jet pack from platform to platform as a planet collapses around me and hope I don't plenty of that I hope that I don't fall into the ghost matter that instantly murders me the fucking the fucking terrible ghost matter I you my I had a lot of heat for ghost matter and then I became Equated with the angler fish and then I don't mind the ghost matter as much Well We'll have to we'll have to come back to the go to smatter a little bit. We will talk about We're gonna talk about angler fish. We're talking about everything.
Yeah So you start off the game you wake up literally the first thing you do in this game is wake up and I had gasping for breath Yeah, I think for breath. It's like oh I think our character has a sleep apnea I know I think it needs to get a sleep study done. It probably helps out my knee Yeah, one of those machines CPAP machine, but you see something explode in the sky above you and you wander through your little home forest planet And I had no knowledge of it. I bought this game site unseen basically I had just seen I think I'd seen a person on Twitter say this is amazing go play it So my respect their opinions so and this is mine This is what I had done before I told you to get this game I was like, okay, so you wake up on this point you gas You see something explode in this guy you're right next to a big giant rocket ship You can't also just sit there by the fire in rose marshmallows.
Mm-hmm, which I did Yeah, I mean the whole like tutorial part I think that's a big part of the the beauty of this game is um, you know, you start out this way It's nice and homey and it's like oh like it's an explore this universe and it's real chill I'm gonna go to the moon and there's a guy whistling Dixie up there And I can stand on it and telescope and look around the universe And there's all this neat fun stuff to do and you know you play hide and seek with some kids And it's it's it's real cute and then all of a sudden you get whacked over the head with mystery. Just just left and right Yes, there's lots of that there's lots of Mystery because I mean everything is a mystery. There's the things you take for granted You're told by the tutorial that are wrong flat-up incorrect and You are all it it serves its purpose because it gives you an idea like oh no This is how we this is how your your your hearthians think of the world in a certain way and then everything you think about it is quickly proven wrong and it's incredibly intriguing and You you leave your world you leave your little planet with your little rocket ship and Then you die Many times. Yeah, and it's not even like it's not even video game death It's it's real in world in the story like why am I dying and coming back to life?
What is this this makes no sense and it's just the way that it reveals this information to you I mean, it's a pretty typical, you know, I mean I guess half-life didn't really do it. What was what was your experience? I don't know if I could it was exactly the way it wasn't missed. What was you know, listening to all video files and Like reading stuff.
I can't even think of the first game or games that I saw that mechanic in oh I mean the old those old point click adventures are really the first ones that were like I miss had video Which that makes you know that had video files in it which made it a little different than you know Stuff that came before that that I mean putting like you could go back really far And I don't think that it's it's that kind of thing like it makes me think about the only example I have in my head is like that one doom game where you would go around listening to The recordings and all that, you know, like you're just this lone wanderer having to read things I think like it does make the comparison to miss pretty apt But I feel like this is like a more modern version of it And I can't remember that game that it refers to anyway, I mean this game is I think there has been this is like a This is this is a Next step basically in a walking simulator kind of genre of you know the the the gone-homes and the adventures and the the fire watches and all Those games where those are those are those games you're certainly doing a lot of reading in a lot of like mystery investigation We're like trying to figure out what's happened here, you know, what's going on? Yeah, and but this game is melded that with those like video game ass mechanics where you have to jump across the thing You have to pilot a spaceship You have to you know, you have to take a thing take a work core out of a place and take it across the galaxy across the solar system To a different place and teleport and figure out like it's melding those puzzle mechanics with Like a 3d platformer in a lot of ways in space Sims and like a very light to touch kind of way I mean there is I mean there's an you have to land a spaceship even though It's not nearly as difficult as it is and like kurtl. No, so this is the physics and the field of the world is really very remarkable and interesting I don't know I Enjoyed myself so even when I was just like so frustrated mad with it, you know it it having that additional level of Having to being challenged and having to play through you know having to play well having to land your spaceship in the right place or Knowing that you can't park your like you can't park your spaceship in a place where the the sand tornado is gonna suck it up the other planet Yeah, and then you're like, oh my spaceship's gone great I mean it's it is and it's punishing that way and that's a that is a big part of the enjoyment of it is I mean and that's where the time loop Mechanic really kind of get meshes with the whole idea of how dangerous the space is You know and you get that feeling of feeling so vulnerable and small In these these terrifying situations even though even though it's it's effectively safe There's times where I would be on dark Bramble and having to outrun an angler fish Hide from them or doing whatever and it's terrifying. I can't believe how scared I am at this game at times I mean I I was this is one of those games where I was I would be screaming at my computer Yeah, there's definitely moments where I had to walk away for some days.
Well that shit would happen I mean I'm playing you know I came with me on her computer Which is you know if you feel away from mine, and I'd be like I just start I mean I have headphones on I'm just playing the game I just are screaming no no no and then she's like are you okay? I'm like no I'm not okay. I just got sucked into a black hole Yeah, I was trying to get across a stupid chasm and I fell to a black hole and I'm it's it's that feeling hollows I thought her not feeling of just plumbing and you're just like oh I can't and there's nothing and you're like I'm just like trying to use all my jetpack to try and latch onto something and you're like there's nothing I'm going into that black hole. I'm gonna be teleported the first time that happened I'm like what what what and then suddenly oh wait where am I where's my spaceship?
Oh, no I think it had just happened to you basically for the first time when you checked in with it Yes, exactly it was it was after that first experience. I'm just like oh There's my spaceship 20,000 million. It's I can't reach it. It's not even it's not even that It's probably only like 20 kilometers away at that point.
No, it's not that far But then you the whole universe is or the whole universe So it doesn't actually go outside the solar system because that's a thing that I did I'll tell you about that in a minute, but it's it's only like some of the more eccentric orbits Do kind of go out a little bit further but the It's only about maybe a 30 kilometer circle ellipse whatever Is it uses kilometers because miles are stupid, but it's it's how my brain works unfortunately shit It's not that far like by the game like the solar system itself that you're in this game is very condensed because like normal space travel It's so far away from each other unless you're traveling at like speed. It's right. It's not very it's not very fun. It was a years Yeah, it's like it could even going extremely fast It could take you your whole life to go to Pluto and then like there's an angler fish there and you die So that was that was not fun.
No, so they condensed they condensed the space but because I think that is a credit to how it is built in that because you only have 20 minutes between these time loops You and especially when you first start the game and you don't know anything works And you know there is a way you can jump around to a certain extent once you figure it out when you first start You're just like I'm just like oh I you go through the you because the brittle hollow is the first real planet I went to I went to the moon first like you I don't know if that's where you went first, but I went to the moon first and I went to Brittle Hollow And it it basically like you don't have to do any of that But it is kind of where the story points you right? And so I go to Brittle Hollow and I fall in a black hole It's in the center of this fall the plate is collapsing around you and you teleport it out into somewhere out you know wherever the little white spot is which is out Out in the edge of the whole system of the white hole station. Yeah, and when you first do it I'm just like well, I guess that's it. I'm not getting back I can't my like my jetpacks are gonna get me back to my not get me back to Brittle Hollow one because I can't navigate to it Like maybe I could theoretically maybe if you had full fuel you could jetpack there But you have to autopilot with your jetpacks So it's a plane that's gonna be moving the entire time So you can't actually get there and you just like okay Well, I guess I'll explore this station and actually the first time I went through that I had never I didn't die due to the sun exploding at Yeah, I just died for me being an idiot.
Yes I mean that's and that's a big part of what's remarkable about the game is So much of the story like you do get part of it through all the text that you have to recover But a big part of it is your observations of the environment and you know, you said the first thing that you see is the exploding object I'm just like, okay, that's a meteor. That's a that's the that's whatever, you know, and it was several game hours before I'm like You know, I've been staring at this planet the whole time and something's blowing up and You know, it leads me to explore the wasn't the call the gravity cannon. What was the space station called? Oh Launcher yeah, I am absolutely not gonna remember all the names from everything.
Oh, it's what we're gonna we're gonna do our little best here You know We're just we're having a conversation about it. We're not fucking we're not a strategy guide to it. Yeah Yeah, I mean you but that's the thing you see all this stuff and you don't know any of it is and you're like Why what's going on? You go to the bro hollow and you like you're jumping around in this like like I mean every planet is deadly It's not like that's the only one they're all they all will kill you in different ways.
Yeah, space is fucking scary And you will die right and it that's the I think that is the I think the the balance this game does so well is it's beautiful and all-inspiring God is so pretty and so pretty and scary at the same time. It is terrifying absolutely horrifying It's both of those things at the same time because you're like in the bro hollow specifically, you know you're dangling on like little tiny rock formations that people used to live in you know millennia ago or whatever it was and The planet is collapsing around you like literally chunks of the planet are falling into this black hole in the middle including your spaceship If you park it on the wrong one and then you're just it is there's a there's a an element of randomness to it for sure That you can even park it at the exact same place in the next loop and you know it gets hit with a rock from the volcanic Moon orbiting the planet in a different part falls apart. Yeah It's wild, you know, it's wild and it's deadly as hell and it's continually throwing terrifying shit at you And it's just bananas and some certain things are clockwork and will always happen and certain things are there's random systems along Inside that clockwork, you know, including the volcanic moon and the placement of certain, you know, the angler fish It's certain certain angler fish are randomly, you know distributed. I think and then certain angler fish or not I think you know that stuff is I think kind of look like sort of random while there's the things like where the plants already given one Time are our programs like, you know that the interloper is gonna be near the sun at this moment You're gonna you're gonna know that the hourglass twins.
They're gonna empty out of sand at this rate at this time But that's the brittle hollow is the first place and then the first time I actually saw the sun explode was out at the the white spot Was the white hole station seeing that's where I actually saw the world end for the first time. Yeah Which is really when my mind kind of wrapped itself around what I thought the game was yes Where I go, okay, and then you wake up and you're you get all your memories back or you see your life what you like you just had the you really did your memories and You start kind of understanding a little bit like okay It's something to do with these aliens that used to live here and as you explore all these planets You see all the things they built you you're the first person has this translator You see other notes and messages they left behind you use I don't know I started thinking I knew what this game was Yeah, that's the that's the one of the cool things about the storytelling is it as you as you get deeper and deeper it swerves quite a Few times I mean I think I think it changes with every discovery because you see to an extent sure It's not a lot it doesn't swing a lot But I think every time you see a new not even like I mean in minor even my new details sometimes it will change How you feel about these change how you feel about the people the aliens that came before you and Because you your race and you got you're really primitive compared to the the no other their technology is basically magic Yeah, you have this little cobbled together piece of shit spaceship and Which I think is it they have some of this technology because they've found it right I don't remember Maybe the oh you mean the not the no my but the the your the player character Yes, yeah, the heart the ends excuse me. No, they've definitely they've dissected like they like your spaceship has a gravity environment Because it's got one of the gravity crystals Mm-hmm that the no my used or devised or whatever and they have various stuff like that like they've they're clever people And they've been picking apart how their stuff works So you can you can be inside your spaceship in zero gravity and it's got gravity And it's because they you know use their stuff, but it's only the stuff that's easy and makes sense to them right like the the the people mover stuff that they do it also It has they they their spaceship had your pure spaceship has that too right can figure it out But like I don't know like they have friggin warp drives you can teleport from planet to planet without a spaceship and They have spaceships that instantly teleport to stuff and and then then there's the the wreck of the vessel even Mm-hmm. It's how the world is just it's just so fascinating and it's it's oh God.
It's a really heartbreaking It's a heartbreaking game. Honestly. I mean it's also it's like it's like it's also a little bit of reversal the typical sci-fi story Yeah, I think the you think of what a Star Trek episode is and most of them are they come to a planet that is more primitive than them They have lower lower technology and they have to there's some problem with it or they themselves get stranded there And they have to sum up the advanced technology race has to or federation in this in the Star Trek has to get off the planet without You know destroying this primitive race just by giving them proper information or whatever and in this case you are the primitive race You are this relatively simple people, you know, they're they're relatively the same timeline that humans are in you know With the amount of technology they have maybe a little bit more primitive than right now But in the last hundred years probably, you know, they just achieved They've had space flight for a while, but they don't have they just discovered they finally translate it as alien race This alien race is language the forerunners. Yeah, and now you are gonna figure out what that is and figure out why they've left all this stuff behind and where do they go and You know, it reminds me of a lot of science fiction stories.
I've read over the years It's except I'm actually playing like I'm actually playing through those side of science fiction stories I am the I am uncovered that history the protagonist I am that protagonist and it's like the the Normally, you know when you talk about novels written like their video games It doesn't work stories told like their video games that aren't video games generally don't work Yeah, but this is a type of game where the writing is so good and the way that it's built that it actually it's reliant on that It is reliant on that, you know, that these old conversations of these old the the gnomai they have to feel like real They feel like real people they feel like actually like they were excited about science Which makes sense because that's like these this race is kind of conquered everything else They're like they are idle because they've they are that Sartrecht Federation where they have all the technology so sufficiently advanced They don't struggle for anything anymore, you know, so what they need to do is Find out how to make a Sun explosion power a They really they really wanted to They really want to blow up that Sun really really wanted to they needed to get to the IV universe Eric in the only way is to explode this one. Yeah, obviously have to blow up that Sun and you just oh man You're so mad at him because over over again. You watch the Sun blow up and the story goes It's like oh something's wrong with our equipment and that's why that's why the the the mechanism is kicked in with the time loops Because something's wrong. Yes the fail safe and the week they fucked up and they caused the Sun to explode And that's what the problem is and that's that is not the case.
That's that that was a interesting swerve there Yeah, you are you you hear you like you you're your character You think you are like to believe oh, I need to stop the Sun from exploding. Yeah, cuz it's killing everyone and killing me every 22 22 minutes ish And it it was really like I was so into it was like a mission. I have to find out like how am I gonna save the universe Right and how am I gonna do it and you're and you as you get deeper deeper into the to discovering all the stuff You're you're like oh no you kind of feel betrayed by the no mind because they have set this clockwork in emotion that you have no control over You have to undo whatever weird combination of machines They built and save everything at least you think that's what you need you think you can do that at least you know, and it's you are You know that is a familiar feeling all that time when you are I think most of us find things that you know We are put in a place in our lives where we are I don't I'm gonna call it traps It sometimes feels like you're trapped in a world that you did not create But you are forced to participate in and in this case in this game It is not just participate in but try and stop because it is killing you and all everyone your whole civilization is getting killed Because of the machinations of something that came well before you and nothing you could ever have any aspect of control about and it is Incredibly frustrating sometimes like you get actively frustrated at the no my which they're all dead There's all of them are dead. There's nothing you can do about it.
Oh Well, you know one of them's not dead, right? You found him. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I don't I'm not sure one one is alive There was there was another one that I think I think it is like as he's on the quantum moon Maybe he is alive and dead because there is a corpse and then you right that's what I think I think he is both alive and dead He's in a he's in a quantum superposition superposition.
Yes. He is both alive and dead at the same time and yes You talk to him even though he had the conversations with him are also I found that very frustrating Found the conversations with that the quantum know my little a little I mean he can't he doesn't speak your language It's true. You're I mean he you can read his so he does that. Mm-hmm.
You know it makes a certain kind of sense I think there is I would argue there is it I think that is it links back to you my very Couple minor complaints. I have about the game. I think this game is great. I do have a couple minor complaints most of them are I'm still actually debating about my debating with myself if they're if it's fair for me to complain about them But it does I think there's a couple moments where it hindered my enjoyment of the game But the fact that you quickly discover like oh, I really can't stop the Sun from exploding Mm-hmm.
It's gonna do that forever until the loop ends basically until there's no more loop There's nothing I can do about it and then it becomes a different question about what you're trying to get you know it becomes a question of trying to get to the I've universe and figure out what's there and That is your your quest no longer becomes actively fighting the Nomai or at least trying to dismantle their machine their grand solar system spanning machine But it in fact then your quest becomes their quest your quest becomes yours where you're like I need to do the same thing They're doing maybe that is the way I can say and I still had I still the whole game I was thinking like if I get there I can I can do something I can save the world. I definitely that was absolutely where I was I'm like, okay, so the Nomai are not blowing up the Sun. They did not do what they failed They couldn't do it, you know, and I that was like the Sun Station was one of the last mysteries that I had to solve and I'm like, okay, so the eye of the universe. It's basically its guide.
So let's we're gonna go I mean, maybe maybe that's the solution, you know, you get there and you stop this thing from happening like I it's hard to like It's impossible to tell what has caused, you know, what is causing this event what's causing not just the one supernova But the supernova is, you know, as you can observe all the stars in the sky going dark But that's that's a that's a whole sad thing in and of itself, right? Which we can let's let's let's table the ending until we get Yeah, we'll come back to it because it's a whole I think the whole heavy can of worms I want to talk about these planets. Yeah, we didn't even do that. Did we that's so that's that's well worth talking about So the soul that I think that is part of the charm of this game is not just that you're exploring on these little tiny solar system It is that the solar system.
I think it feels like the right size. It doesn't feel too big It doesn't feel too small like you're immediately like oh, I already seen everything This is simple It feels it feels small enough that you can explore easily within the time loop But big enough that it makes it still feel dangerous and scary and feels like space even though it's not anything like real space It's mostly empty But it's not really trying to make you feel it doesn't make it makes no claim to be a simulation It is more about feeling it is about evoking emotion and Brittle hollow is the first plant the real planet I went to and it is falling around like it's falling apart and each planet gives a different feeling The each are they are all different from each other. They all evoke feelings of awe Yeah, they're dead. It's this game is definitely all inspiring.
They're all incredible But they're all very different from each other and there's one has its own unique flavor of horror. It does It does evoke but I mean there they are like, you know, Brittle hollow is about how about entropy It is about that there is no stopping this things it falls things fall apart literally yeah, and you know You start off in timber hearth, which is like the friendly planet. It's your own planet it nothing like there is the earth It's earth ish and I do find it interesting that you just got hit by one of the seas It got hit by one of the seeds from the dark ramble. Yeah, and it feels it feels very much like that is it like hey It's starting.
Yeah, it's over. Yeah, it's basically already over It's just like here all these other strange dangerous planets have come here are coming It is the danger is coming the end is coming and like that that is just a little tiny sign of like oh actually Yeah, Tim Martha won't be safe for very long. You're in 20 minutes roughly. Yeah, but Brittle hollow is falling apart It is also the hardest platforming probably so I can't think of anything else That really struck me is you know the amount the hourglass twins has some yeah But I that's not really that's not really the main challenge.
No the hourglass twins a lot of it is so it's a race Of the clock because if you go there at the end of your loop You can't get the some stuff like there's definitely if you want to go to the high energy lab or even like part of the Sunless City You can't do it unless you go straight there and that's all you do for the loop I think Sunless City was a part of the the twins. It wasn't it's not I'm not confusing it with the hanging city which is Brittle hollow. Yeah, the hanging city is in is in Brittle hollow and That is Brittle hollow is like you have to jump across chasms to get to the place you want to get to you have to and you have to do it early as Well, you know the time you know when you have like 13 percent of the planet left Like how are you gonna do this stuff? Oh god and the puzzle that you have to solve by letting it fall into the black hole That's shit's fucking terrifying.
I mean that's I get I'm not a super big fan of heights Oh, yeah, it fucking terrifies me. I can deal with heights of real life to a certain extent better than I used to be But I still get I get the feeling in the back of my knees I get the jelly legs for sure and I'm horribly focused on heights and this game Brittle hollow in particular But other parts of the other entire game there's parts of it where it is you're just standing over an infinite chasm And you're like I need to get to that other side and my first mistake with Brittle hollow was getting there late multiple times And thinking like oh, I need to get it. How do I get across this? This is impossible?
My jetpack ain't got me over there and then I'm like wait a minute. I'm a dummy This is I need to get here early and see what the planet is That's a that's a big part of the way that it tells the story is you have to learn all this shit from insight experience. Yeah, absolutely and Brittle hollow is the most a lot of screaming at the game because you fall and you fall and you fall and you fall And then you get and if you don't fall you die to ghost matter I mean you died you died ghost matter in a lot of different places But by the end of the game you kind of figure out oh I need to get oh I cannot Ghost matter instantly kill you there's no way around it. That's the part of Brittle hollow is there's a particular moment where you have to jump From a platform.
I think this is Brittle hollow. You have to jump from a platform and then onto a wall where there's a gravity crystal Yeah, and then you're walking along that and then you have to get over a another bit to another gravity crystal on a side wall that's Going up vertically and there's dark there's ghost matter everywhere and you have to do this one particular jump And I must have done it six times before I got through and I was just screaming I'm like no, I know what I need to do. I just couldn't do it and it's I'm gonna ask you now, Eric And it circles back around to one of my minor complaints Do you think what do you think this game is if there is a sort of a limited fast forward ability like if you don't have to Wait for the three passes right let's say on the ash twin to teleport into the ash twin project right that kind of thing Yes, or more sitting landing my spaceship on the on the tip of the interloper and just waiting for it to get it close to open Yeah waiting for it to get close to the side um I don't know if that improves it or not because I think that to an extent I don't know that the misery is kind of a joy. Um, I don't know like Would this game be better if it was less challenging would it be more satisfying if it was easy to get to everything?
Um, I don't know that it would be better. I I'm gonna it just it came in like I think there's a part of it That is very much the repetition is a part of it that you are you know repeatedly having to do this to figure something Like it's not it's not necessarily Repeating it's it's more about when I get to a spot and then I mess up because I'm I do a bad video game thing Not necessarily because I didn't know what to do. It said I was bad at video games and then I fucked up the jump Yes, I mean we talked about trying to in a tense situation trying to get around the angler fish That's a that's the bad video game thing right and it's not like I know time it right I know that I'm not supposed to I'm supposed to if I move around the angler fish They will they will eat me and if I to get past them I can I can move around I can move when they're around Only very very slightly and if they're too close they will get you anyway Yep, but so I know that I have that information and I've gone through I've gone through it I mean I went to you know, when you're in the dark ramble There is the two two kind of pass the two different signals You can go after you can go after your your your buddy your your the member of your race who's pulling the banjo Or you can go after the vessel and I don't spar that's how far the guy the heroic pilot that everyone loves and he's like no I'm a fuck up And you can I noticed that they called felt spar they yeah, I saw that Yeah, I noticed I thought that was I can't remember if any of the other ones Seemed to do that, but I thought it was very interesting that felt spar did not they didn't gender them It was very interesting that way and I've already been to felt spar Yeah, and I said no, okay, don't get the angler fish around just move very very slowly Will glide past them when they're near you I know all that but you know in the last To get the ending of the game so to speak the good ending You have to get past them and multiple waves of them and I know how to do it It's just a product of I'm the controller was bad or my thumbs are bad I'm bad at video games and so I have to go you know, I what should take me 20 minutes takes me two hours And I'm not getting any new information. I'm not discovering anything new to the video game I am just doing the same thing over and over and over again until I get it right is that part of the experience is that fact that yes This is a time loop game So there is a part of it is the repetition of Doing one particular set of actions all in a row because that is what it would be like I think the challenge is pretty important the game Yeah, I think it's critical that the universe feels dangerous And I think that if it's not challenging enough it doesn't feel dangerous um, and I think that I mean there are definitely some times where I'm like swearing and mad and I'm like, why the fuck is this so hard?
But I do I think it means less if it's not I mean, it's it's not like impossibly hard You know, I think I would say this is it isn't impossibly hard at least but I know there are people And I think this is the thing that I would I think I you know both of us beat it We've got through there but there are going to be people that cannot beat it No, they are just incapable because they just don't have the the spatial skills the game I can mention whatever it is Right, there's certainly plenty of people like I I mean, you're saying bad at video You're pretty good at video games, but you're definitely better than I am Um, but I still I still finished this game a couple of days before you did I was No, no, I was playing it more consistently. I was really very deeply obsessed Um, I was every time I was surprised I saw that pop up. I saw you know, you saw you play I'm like, wow Eric's playing a video game. I wonder I wonder how many hours because I don't know that epic tracks it the same way I don't know.
Um, it's but it's more about like well, what happens, you know Most people and when they most people who play most video games don't finish them. Yeah in regards to the game I had to finish this game And I mean, I think the mystery is very compelling and I think most people who are naturally attracted to this kind of game Will want to get through it But at a certain point when you bash your head against the wall over hours and hours and you just can't do it You don't see you don't get to you don't get through this game You don't see the ending You don't you don't get to the kind of beautiful moment that ends the game the melancholy moment that ends the game The you just get you hit a moment of up under frustration and then you stop and that's it And maybe you watch it you watch a youtube video of the ending to know what happens, but that's not the same It's playing it. It's very different. No, it is.
It is and that's the exact thing like would if I watched The same thing, you know, if I watched like the best player on earth play this and upload it to youtube I would not enjoy it the same way No, it's it is it is a part of that struggle of being a Figuring this stuff out yourself of of like going to all these planets one at a time feeling in your little rumor Rumor computer all that stuff popping in you're like, oh this I have all the information. That's great. I can cross off I didn't know how do I start everything in the middle hall. I figured it all out.
I think that's a that's a big part of like Why I see this game as such a masterpiece is that difficulty like it is so integral to what it is It is so important Because if they told me this a similar story because you can't tell the same one as a movie or even as a novel Like I agree with you that you could take some form of this narrative and shape it into a good thing You know, but like this is like it's so tailored to what storytelling in a video game can be Because the challenge the difficulty you you're earning it You know and it means more and it's not you're not watching that guy fly to a planet And like I did that, you know, like I I flew to that planet and I found this information And I figured out how to open this thing or I figured out how to get to this place like that's like that's me I did that, you know, and that that interactivity it's it's It's such a it's so it's it is the storytelling. It's right. It's all together and it's like I I don't know I love it so much other things have done similar things. It's not like it's not like there's not too much in here That's really that you haven't seen in other places, but it all is done It's all meshed together so well.
It just it just kills me It's I mean it's it is one It's I think the first time the video game has done this exact kind of thing Yeah, in this kind of structure and I think a product a part of that is just we have the technology now where you can have a game Or you're flying around in a little mini solar system and be able to do this. Yeah, you definitely couldn't do this on any s Not for sure, but a part of it again is I think yeah, it's yeah, there's time. There's many time loop movies There's a time loop novels. There's there's a lot of in science fiction.
Most of these science fiction ideas aren't that complicated There's there's infinite amount of science fiction novels that have covered every single possible idea that has ever existed But it is more about how do you tweak the perspective on that idea? How do you how do you make it look look at it from a different angle and in this game? That is precisely what it is doing is giving you this aspect of perspective of this Relatively low technology race discovering this information and flipping that narrative on its head of a normal video game Which you know again is still works most of the time because in most video games you are supposed to save the universe You're supposed to win you're supposed to be a typical space hero in science fiction games You're supposed to you know save the world. Yeah, and that that is ingrained monsters and you win Yeah, it's ingrained in us.
I think and then ingrained in a lot of people who play video games is that they're so used to playing Play so many games that are always that it is always like just kill everything Uh get through get to them the last one of boss beat him and you win and you save the world everyone lives Uh this game puts tilted on its head. It's more and it's not and like that discovery stuff I think it's still incredibly vital and I don't want to like I think of like having a different difficulty level that is like the you know the the game like Soma, uh, which I love so much amazing Um, but soma is has in its original form There are monsters around and it works kind of like horror games where you have to run and hide from them and get through an area And then you're okay, and there's more puzzles and world building and discovery which I love There's a pacifist mode. Yeah added to soma where you still play through the entire game So not to figure out all the puzzles and discover all this information and the monsters are still there But they can't kill you they can't you know and they can only they're there and they provide an ambiance And they certainly still feel threatening. They don't kill you and I think it's when I know what I need to do and I figured it all out and It's just a process of going through these It it came.
It really like made it start to me when I was running a D and D game the other day Where the party is working its way through a dungeon with a bunch of puzzles and riddles and stuff And there's a part where there's a spike trap and they worked their way through the spike trap Someone triggered it and got hurt um, but they found their way through it and got to the other side And there's a they found their way to a door that they can't get into but as a DM I just went you guys don't need to roll checks for every time you're crossing the spike trap now You figured it out. You've you've beaten it for now on we can shortcut you you do all the same thing you did before Yes, you carefully step through this thing you as a rope you let people down you jump across whatever you all do that every time But you don't need actually do it just but every time you have to hide from the angler fish is what you're saying Yes, every time I have to pay I get that it's it's hateful But I would tell you that like what you're describing as a DM As a kind universe And this universe is not kind This universe does not give a fuck about you That's true. And that is that is a big part Like I would say that this feels completely different I mean, I I think that's it that gets to the the crux of the the question is You know how prevalent are the video the how prevalent is the video game in your video? Yeah, yeah is You know how that I think that's like there are moments where they cut back on that harshness Where they cut back on the cruelty and like in particularly it is the bad ending so to speak Where if you turn off the machine that keeps the loop going and you die it just says you die Yes, and then you but it's not that it shows you credits It shows you credits, but you you jump right back into where you were in the loop before it happened You don't lose you don't lose all your progress, which would I think be ultimately unbelievably cruel Yeah, it would be terrible But it would be thematically accurate with how the what you know that this universe doesn't care about you And it's dangerous like that much i'm thankful of because I fucked that up a bunch Yeah, luckily I didn't I luckily do not have to do that too many times You know it's all due to the angler fish mostly Yeah, I mean that that's the main thing for sure and then one time I accidentally launched the vessel Or something or I forget what I did, but I died You know multiple times I've been in those those they're the no my ships and hit the go And then I just my skull bounced off the inside of their spaceship and that was the end of me Oh, that's terrifying It's just you're just like oh wait a go and then it stops and I continue moving and then my head crack your helmet cracks and you're dead Um, I think that's the thing like how what level of forgiveness do you want for your players?
I think that ultimately I think it's more about it should be playable by by humans. Right. That's about the level of it Yes, I mean, it's not it is ultimately I feel like it is It owes a lot to the to the dark solidification of a lot of video games of putting the difficulty back in Uh, I just you know it when you get to those angler fish at the end and you there's you launch out of there suddenly And then you're there's three angler fish right there the three the three angler fish is tough I I don't I honestly like that. I like that absolutely that when you're like and you're just like one of the most I mean that dark ramble in and of itself.
We've talked about one planet so far Well, I don't remember a while there so I was gonna say but it's it's the fact that there once you get past the three angler fish I think that should be it I think your past those three you glide past them you can't use your power at all on your engines Yes, you know you coast past them and I think after you get out of their range basically I would argue that there should be no more angler fish, but there are more angler fish and they're just floating around and I'm like well I understand the the danger that it says I got scared legitimately the first time you just pop out and you see them But our dark ramble is terrifying rambles really bad It's more about when I get past them that first time and I have that moment now It's just it becomes tedious not necessarily scary anymore I don't I'm not scared of the angler fish after that first big encounter I'm just going like I hope that I don't accidentally trigger one because you don't know what the real range is And I'm just it's like I think I'm far enough past it and that that count that timer is just always in your head after you play This game for a while you're just like and you need to do this loop the final loop has to be not perfect But you have to move you can't just sit around wait you have to get to the get to the get to the To get to the hourglass wins you gotta get to the dark ramble you gotta move To get all that stuff. It's a lot. You gotta save the universe. Yeah, but not really really Um, I think that's that's my I think I saw similar critiques online about a lot of people who were like This game's amazing But the last hour and a half or two hours of my time I was more it didn't feel all inspiring.
It didn't feel scary It felt tedious Which I get that because you're I mean certainly there were puzzles and there were things that I was struggling with and I was doing the wrong thing Teetiously, I I don't know. I never getting past the anglerfish in the end like I got mad But I never really I never thought like it's the game's fault like no, I Knew what it was and I had to do it. I don't know. I never upset me.
I just wish I had Some other information about how closely we're to me some which is the thing I really didn't like Uh, not really I'm not gonna This isn't a complaint about the game. It may be upset though Is that you're when you're on the planet you have that little radar sort of thing like a little map where you've been you know tracking you Right, and I wish that that was in your spaceship when you're circling a planet That's no I yes that does make it a little bit difficult for sure But you know you like to get to the vessel you you go to your log and you can put a beacon on the vessel It'll take you right there. There's like two paths in you take the first you take the white path There's one angler fish and then you go around all the floating objects and then there's the red path where there's three I know I know all that it's not like there's no like I don't know this that's all that there is It's literally three times in a row. I did exactly what I was supposed to and I coasted Literally throwing a touch my engine and my ship just bumped into an angler fish It landed me and then it ate me and that's I had no control over that situation.
They just ate me And that's the I don't know But it doesn't multiply universe. Well, it does it multiple times I I am it becomes I think it is that balance of suspension disbelief about all the new games Want you to do where they and all the fix all art wants to do This wants you to buy in and want you to keep you in that tenuous spot where you are bought in and you're completely believing You know, it's it's when you're watching a wrestling match And then suddenly someone does something that immediately like if they they miss a miss a They botch a move or you know, they they botch a move and then they immediately try and do it again Which usually just makes it worse things like that where you just like if it's like it just boom out of it Um, we haven't we haven't talked about one planet. Uh, I mean we talked about two or two, which is just here We've we've thrown them. Yeah, we mentioned around from here Not I went from the point of the mouth.
No, but I went from I went from a little hollow and then I went to China's deep Yeah, that was the next my next stop. That was kind of that was kind of my next thing to I I think I was scared because brutal hollow you kind of can see what's going on But I was legit terrified like what's beneath the atmosphere of giant steep then I landed on um the bramble island For the first time when you see that weird jellyfish thing. Yeah, it looks like it looks like a I couldn't tell what it was. You know, it didn't look like a jellyfish It didn't look like some weird plant man.
It was weird weird and terrifying weird red thing It looks kind of it looks kind of like a food monster to me. It looks like an eldritch. Yes, eldritch monster And that I get that too in it for me like I hadn't gone the bramble like it was the first the first supposedly living thing That I had seen that was not you know, it's not one of a hearthian. Right.
It is wasn't one me It's an alien another a living thing that you know, you just don't see you haven't seen them throughout the game And then when you finally do you're like, oh, that's you're not alone and the you know getting in under the water and figuring out Oh, I just need to get in the right twister and I boom underneath and then You see what's underneath the water. God, which is another one of those fans Like I think that is the one the moment that kind of just like immediately made me like stop and like Staring to sit there for a second even though I know there's a timer going on I'm just sitting and staring and like sitting just sitting underneath the water and seeing all these jellyfish flow up and down through the electrical Borb the electrical core of the planet and you're just like, oh, okay, me and I kind of I My immediate my immediate thought was oh, I need to go inside one of them because it makes sense because they can go in and out But and then I guess myself because I tried I tried in my spaceship And your spaceship can't fit and I was like I immediately didn't think to maybe just jump out of your spaceship and fly and float inside One of them and try that I mean like oh fuck I can't there's nothing that I don't want to do it You know, I tried space Go through the go through it with my spaceship or shoot at the scout into the the core And maybe that's the thing I need to do but I didn't actually get into the core of giant steep until much later When I when I finally found fells bar and followed into the the the jellyfish that's inside the dark rattle And then I then I started piecing thing. Oh, I actually do need to go inside the jellyfish To get into the core of the jite's deep which is another incredible experience like riding inside of a jellyfish What ever game does that? No, it's insane and it's it's I don't know.
It's one of those moments that I think I'll remember until the day I die It was really just like gut punches Just so absolutely beautiful. I mean and it's so like there's no one It's there's no other game that asks you to do this. There's no other game that solution is Oh, yes, there's a water planet and but inside the water to get under the surface you have to fly your spaceship into a certain Water tornado on the surface. Well, then suck you underneath and then there's a bunch of electrical jellyfish You need to hide yourself inside one of them so that you can get inside the core of this planet And that that this is a singular experience that many that that one moment is better than a lot of Entire video games.
There's things in entire other video games that don't rival that one moment And this game is filled with those moments. It is filled with going like what is what is this weird world? I'm in and what am I doing to so that I can explore it? It is the truth like like there's a lot of games now is much more popular that Oh, yeah, exploration is a core a core part of the game you're expected to go around and explore But there the things you have to do to explore are never they're always just walk through a building and open every door Or find a key and that is something this game does so well is that it truly embodies that exploration element of makes you feel like I'm a true science fiction space explorer I am hiding inside of an electric jellyfish so I can get into the core of a planet That that is true exploration that is true having to think outside the box to get to where you need to go And it is never it is never I want to say it's never easy even though it like once you know the information It's not that hard to do but it is Pacing all of these things together all these little bits of information together that leads you to that simple answer where you go Oh, I hide inside the jellyfish and I get to the core of the planet and I get the information I need Another you know another one little bit of information I need That contributes to another part where so that I know that information now so then I can go to the next plan and figure out more things um I think I did I think I started hourglass twins next And then went to dark bramble and then went to hourglass I went back and forth between hourglass twins and dark bramble I think Yeah, I was avoiding dark bramble for a long time I did more stuff on the twins You know and basically did thoroughly explored the twins before I got I guess a little tired of the of that I don't know if I got to a point where I had explored everything or more.
I just it was just time to do something else I'd been on the twins a lot there they're deadly and it's a lot of the same flavor And I'm just like, okay, I've been avoiding I've been avoiding dark bramble. It's time Just I have to I have to know I have to know what's going on in it. I have to try it and God it's horrifying. It still makes me tense.
I I I'm very surprised that um, you know that you say It feels tedious to you because I I don't know I hold my breath every time You know, I have to go by one of those anglerfish. I feel like the the shock is the same basically every time I just I I I think the It's more that it's just a it is I think like most planets it's really almost all the planets I think it's interesting the information you find there you find the stuff stranded inside the dark bramble You find you know felds bar and you find the vessel and all that stuff's very very interesting in the escape pod and all that information It's more about I am not it it reminded that guy was mentioned so much earlier. It reminds me a lot of those horror games Um, which I I I'm positive. I played more than you have and maybe that is a part of it is in a lot of horror games You know, you in a certain very certain particular genre of horror games like outlast So most one of them even in the new resident the resident will seven it has Poor parts of it that also have this this kind of feeling where you are you are in a space with an unbeatable enemy The enemy you can't kill the enemy you all you can do is outrun it you you can sneak around in some cases hide from it but you can't kill it and It can in in a video game setting where you're used to being in a position of power where any enemy I face I can kill and I can win and then the threat is over That that overwhelming threat of something you can't stop and you can only hope to sneak past it or hide from it Can be very very very scary and it can't work very well But I run into the same thing when I play other horror games of this nature Where you're going through an area and then you get caught, you know, because you're going to it's impossible not to Unless you're amazing at video games or you know, you know how to cheese it Cheese the part of the game let ask you to get, uh, you know, ask the turn catch you And the first time that happened you're like, you know, you're you stream or you know, you can see reaction videos all over YouTube of people playing horror games and streaming because they got caught by something or something jumped out of them and grabbed them and they died The first time it's very effective and certainly every time after that you're still playing with a sense of dread Because you're like, oh, it's gonna get me again.
Oh, it's gonna get me again And I think that's there it is more about I'm not dreading at a certain point. No, after the second third fourth time I'm no longer dreading at the monster like I'm not feeling fear of a big monster I am feeling feeling feeling I am feeling dread of oh, I have to wake up get into my spaceship Make sure that autopilot to dark ramble doesn't take me into the sun By like that happened at least five times to be by the way. There's a lot of the autopilot just straight up murdering you I even or or even your own terrible flying because I mean fucking anything can happen, you know, like I one of the times I was going to Do the final puzzle but go into Dark Bramble and I don't know what happened like I looked at an object and it turned Uh the autopilot off in the accelerate stage and I didn't realize it and all of a sudden I hit the planet going 300 miles an hour You know and I'm like, well, this was like 10 wasted minutes shit And it's more it was that feeling of oh, I'm gonna be spending another 10 minutes to do to get to the place where I was before And it's not oh, it's not because I'm scared of I no longer really scared of the angler fish even though they are Turns out hey angler fish normally are very scary and they're only like a foot a foot across in real life Turns out when you make them gigantic and they can eat a spaceship. They're way way more scary.
Yes, you make them exponentially bigger They are exponentially more frightening Bears out to be true. It's just the dark ramble is not it is only I think it's because it's only that one thing You know like yeah, there's there's no there is not a lot of variation on bramble It's just it is I don't know it is it is the it is the cost but the one of the sources of cosmic horror in that in this universe It is I think it is most concentrated place of it at least yes, correct because it is it's it It used to be an actual planet and then it's this weird seed thing that has other smaller universes inside it or whatever you want to call them You know examples of whatever is going on there Did you I did enjoy that they have that the angler fish eggs are inside as well. Yes Did you ever do anything to them? I never touched.
Oh god. No, I didn't know what I was wanting I was trying to book it. I was trying to get out of there not upsetting angler fish to not want to experiment You know, I know I kind of want to go back and see if I can like what happens if I get out of my ship and look at those Those eggs, but I don't think I mean it's it's not on the I cleared all the rumors You know, I got all that stuff. So I did not go back to do that I kind of want to just because it's a question.
There's there is probably no answer there It probably is just like an inert thing or not gonna like hatch and kill me or that the English come back to protect it and eat you You would think they would do it with you Flying near it, but I mean, I don't know Fisher. I think Fisher. They don't particularly they just abandon their shit and go away true in Bullshit But the last two plans you have to get to before you have to go to them in order to get the ending of the game The hour last wins is the most complicated planet. I think pair yes pair It's because it is the most intensely time reliant Because you have to get one of them before there's too much to end and you get to the other one after most the same is gone Or at least some of the same is gone And it is also appropriate.
It's hourglass is that as Santa runs out your so is your life So is your time on in this universe You're going to once the sand is all the way onto the the ones twin and off the other one that sun's about to explode but I really I like the hourglass wins a lot I think they're really neat. They don't have they don't have it They're like the mechanic that's centered around them of one has bigger and has more gravity So as it rotates around the sun it becomes sucking the ground the sand away from the other planet That's really fun the sci-fi idea and that you have to visit, you know, parts of each planet We either without sand really neat Uh, it is the one I think is has the most information between the two planets There's a lot of story happening on them the ash twins Yeah, I think it is the most most stuff is in these like there's not information all those other planets But I think this is like we're centered a lot of stuff between the two, you know Once you figure out how to get to them and brittle hollow those though It's almost a toss up but probably the the ash twin and the ash twin project Right because it has all that it has big realizations in it You know that you have to You know figure out how to get it. That's a long time for a long. I did not even realize that like what was happening Between these two planets.
I didn't realize that. Oh, it's actually sucking sand out I would didn't know what that thing in them. I didn't know what was going on. It just had like a weird tube connecting the two I had no idea what was happening.
I was like, I should have gotten that too. That's probably will hurt me Uh I was just exploring the the uh, the ember twin and finally I figured I'm like how do you get you gotta you gotta get inside the ash twin I'm like, well how it's just a big ball of sand and I'm like, oh And like I stood on it and just watched stuff start to emerge. I'm like, uh I'm a dummy I think it's hilarious that you keep thinking that that's what that means And you I mean, that's the that is the mechanic of the game is you have to learn by observing and halt the game rewards you For observing and for figuring these things out. I don't think it I don't know It doesn't make you a dummy.
I mean, it's I'm not saying the opposite You have to be quite clever and insightful and you should feel clever and insightful for figuring it out Because that's that's that's I don't know man. I like it. I like it for that Well, I mean, I I'm is I think that I'm not I don't I don't seriously say I'm an idiot But I feel it makes you feel it has a lot of a lot of the best puzzle games the puzzle games I like so much have that those moments those puzzles where they're like, oh, I like it's so obvious How you know, and you stare at something for so long and then you're just me like something clicks or you try one specific thing And it suddenly works for like, wait a minute. Why did that work?
You know, like oh, I you know, and it's all about misinterpreting the laws of this game or the laws of this puzzle You know, the witness to the same thing to me Where, you know, there's a lot of puzzles in the witness where I go why? What's stopping me from understanding this is I know it's not that complicated and something just clicks. Yeah, and That's what I mean. It means like oh I Is a simple thing that's directly in front of me and I think it's part of it I think it's even more it's more affecting in this game than a lot of other puzzle games is that in a lot of other puzzle games Is more about figuring out a specific trick on a specific puzzle and in this game when you're discovering these things It is like how do these planets work?
And how did these aliens living thousands of years ago? How did they they obviously you know, they obey a certain law laws of physics just like me How did they get in and out of this place? This door is broken But they talk about how they got in this other way. There's all you know, they have all these back doors and you're just it's constantly like okay I have to do this this and this and this and they all kind of segue off of each other There there is like a very subtle kind of leading quality to everything on each plan in each puzzle Like you're just like the leading question leading questions of well How do I get to the core of the ash twin and then how do I okay?
Well, I see that there's all these buildings on the end then I you know first thing you realize oh the sand's getting carried away throughout the Blue and eventually they're revealing all these buildings and then you're like, okay What's then that leads you okay explore these buildings? What do I find about them? What's in the notes left behind by the aliens leading to oh, that's how I get side leading to what's inside And what was what did this function serve? What's this information mean to all this other information?
I found it all connects to each other and all leads. That's I think the thing that makes you know, there's This game doesn't have nearly as many dead end moments as a lot of other puzzle games I you can play I never felt like I never felt like there was nothing else for me to do to figure out what's going on There's always another rumor I could go investigate. There's all if I'm bugging my head up because something I don't know what to do. I'm like, well, I haven't done this other thing yet.
Let me go check that out So I go check that out. I figure out something there. He might not be even connected directly to what I was trying to figure out But my time away from it also refreshes your mind a little bit makes you think differently and suddenly you come back and like oh I'll try this this time and then boom It's not, you know, it's not just a single panel that I have to like puzzle my way through. It is more about general concept Which is let's very content rich this game.
It's very deep. There's a lot. There's not it is not one of those It's not a fallout kind of game where it's very broad, but shallow. It is relatively narrow, but very deep Yeah, there's like, you know, there's the five or six, you know, there's the interloper as well, which we haven't touched on really I think it I think it's it can be part of the discussion.
I think for the ending. Yeah, it's true It's a part of it. So it says But I don't know I find the twin the twins really interesting and they're very fun They're very fun. I find them less frustrating than than the brittle hollow even though I think brittle hollow is actually my favorite planet Yeah, it's the It might just be because of the first one I went to and it's just suddenly like it's it's still it still feels like the most Like other world planet.
It feels like I don't know. It's kind of like it's not like the hedgehog How if you look at it, it's always grass hails own is the it's the most fun to play through because it's kind of the least hateful And it kind of is it captures what the game is pretty cleanly Oh, it's simply saying sonic that green hill zone is the only level that is actually well designed Um, I won't I won't uh, I won't take that hot take but you might not be wrong Sonics not good guys can neither can either confirm nor did not I disagree with that but there's there's not been a good There's like there's I Mario. He's got her. Yes without a doubt.
Why would I um but has blast processing Yes, the sonic is edgy. I remember the nineties as well. Um, it's it's it's when you It's you know, you explore all these planets and you're piecing other this mystery and you discover eventually that oh they failed They failed at their mission. They were trying to get to the eye of the universe and they failed multiple times Yeah, they've tried they tried but ultimately they were they absolutely they failed because the whole race perished Um after dead end after dead end they couldn't they couldn't make it well.
I mean, it's it's not even that they died in trying They just yeah, they just they they died. They died. They went to the interloper, which is an asteroid. No comment, right?
It's a comment. Uh, it's a comment. Yes, it's a comment And you find out what the ghost matter is and why what happened and why it's everywhere? Uh because it's they the the comment kind of half exploded and all the ghost matter went throughout the solar system ed killed All of the no my did you figure that out before the ending because I didn't figure that that that I didn't get that until the ending I got that yeah I knew that before well before I knew I was because I went to the interloper before I figured out everything I had not figured out everything about the dark ramble or everything about the twins I had I figured everything about the interloper first.
So where was that part of the story because I didn't like where did you figure that out? I mean, they it's in the some of the recordings that they left behind inside the interloper After you go through that maze of the ghost matter like I did get to the core of the interloper, but I don't remember I mean, it's not like everything the game nothing very little it's just spelling itself out directly to you But it did say like oh the ghost matter is you know, it's under tremendous threat to explode And then every there's the corpses of the no my there and you know, there's ghost matter everywhere in the universe in the planets You're saying that you just kind of piece together. Yeah, because I didn't that didn't come to me But it's spelled out in writing in the ending. Yes I mean it wasn't until it wasn't until that that I understood completely I mean, I what's going on?
Yeah, what happened to the no my because that's you know, they they could kill by other ghost matter It wipes out their entire race. And that's the that that I think is I mean, it's it's a it's a motif You even said it's kind of discussing how you know, you didn't you didn't set this stage You had nothing to do with it You just explore and find out about all this stuff and you can't but that's exactly how to know my you know They had all this power to observe the universe and travel and at the end of the day They're completely hopeless because here comes this asteroid into their solar system And it bathes the whole thing in this ghost matter kills all of them And I don't know basically the hearthians come along later and evolve to be a little bit more immune to it I mean, I think it's dispersed. That's my assumption It just kind of some of it probably like way or something radiation, but it's still there and I mean, they're smart enough to go. We walk into it.
It kills us. Let's not do that anymore so Whatever it is like Either it is what is causing the universe to die because I don't know if you've ever seen the interloper falls into the sun I didn't even sit like I'm playing Quietly a youtube walkthrough of the game And that's a detail that I'd never noticed before is that the interloper falls into the sun towards the end of the loop and then the sun blows up Yes So it seems plausible that whatever this ghost matter is it just swoops in out of nowhere And no one can control anything and it just causes the universe to decay and fall apart And that is the conclusion that certainly the ending brings to me is You first you think, oh, well, there's this thing that's happening and I can stop it and then slowly you're like, oh, no This is the last 20 minutes of the universe. This is this is all there is and you're just really good Yeah, and you yeah, exactly you can't stop it all you can all you can do is take that last 20 minutes and Like they found the answers there and you can go to the eye of the universe Like you can for what it's worth you can get there. Yes, and it's not not universe is A nebulous, you know, it's you know, it's the game itself I don't think it doesn't certainly tell you what the idea of this is it shows you You know, it shows you an answer, you know, it shows you that basically it shows you that there is no way to stop this There is no way sometimes Things end life ends the world ends in this case And there's no way to stop that and nothing you can't stop it.
You can't fix it There is nothing there is no amount of Problem-solving that is going to stop this from happening These forces are too large for any one person any group of people any entire race any system of technology like the no my They couldn't stop that comment exploding and ghost matter killing them all just like you can't stop stop the stop the comment from me heading into the sun And I think the eye the universe is I mean when you get there, which is an incredible journey once you get finally get past this damn fish Of going, you know of you know your journey through this weird I don't know like Into this weird landscape. I don't know what to call it when you jump when you walk up side down on the side of a wall And then jump and fall upwards into the eye of the universe basically And once you get there, there's not really an answer You just go and find all the people. Yeah, you and you have them You sit around a cave fire with them and you see a field of stars all exploding around you inside the wilderness Like you're in like the woods of timber hearth It looks like and you go and find all your buddies who are all playing their instruments And you ask them to play and you sit there as long as you like until you're ready to go And then you go. Yeah, it's really it's really I think it's a perfect ending for this game Yeah, it's uh, I really wanted to save everyone But certainly I beat it twice.
I might even play through it again because the ending is It's it may not be the greatest moment in this game because there's a there's a lot of those amazing moments But it's up there and it's very poignant and it's one of those things that when you see it and you finally you understand what it's trying to say And it completely falls into place that like yes, that's that's what the thesis of this game has been all along You know, it is it's the opposite. It is the opposite of And I think that's the thing that makes it stand out in a you know, world where we had new video game like a dozen new video games every week Most video games are about yeah, and most fiction is honestly it's about success is about winning is about achieving It is about defeating something defeating something big stopping something some grand evil about beating death And this game is about accepting death accepting at the end largely There just aren't many games even games where you die over and over game like star souls or hell mario When you want to go back to like super mario nes mario maker, it is about no matter how many times you die eventually you can get there You can beat this you can do it and even games like bio shock and you know, those those types of that wave of games where braid Where they had twist endings and suddenly oh, you're not the hero you're a villain kind of those kind of things That's about accepting loss. Maybe we're about we're about a change of perspective But it is it is not about death it's not about and it's not about entropy This is this is definitely about death in the end. This is reliving the last 20 minutes of the universe And you know, and you are conditioned we are conditioned to buy games and buy art You know by a lot of you know pop art in general is that no you can win Just keep trying just keep trying you can do it and this game Not only and it's but I think the best part of it is that it's not it's like it's sad but it's not I didn't get it doesn't make it in the ending it frustrate me it didn't make me upset it made me kind of Appreciate everything more kind of in a weird way, you know, and I think that's the ending is ultimately saying is like hey Appreciate this time you have appreciate, you know, you're the songs you're listening to while you're while you're sitting around that campfire Well, your buddies all they'll explore is and now they're there's they set up camp They themselves went out exploring and they settled somewhere and they just they have a good time just playing their music as the world Yeah, and it you are like the newest crop of explorer from among your people you had access to this newest technology But you're not that much different than any of them and all of them have kind of I think I think all of them I've kind of settled into that same feeling because they've all explored everything then their solar system has to offer and ultimately they just go You know what I like I like the moon I'm gonna go set up shop at the moon and you know hang out sit around a fire and you look at any of the explorers They're all just kind of end of the day they set up set up shop somewhere they play their instrument they play music and that's it and You can't you know certain times you just have to stop and think about what you have Appreciate what you can and accept that things are out of your control Hmm.
Yeah, that's not a lesson. We we like to we like to learn as as human beings But this game punishes you again and again and again. It's uh reminds you how small you are And I think I think that's the other thing about it is that yeah, it takes control away from you ultimately Like there's no way to win quote-unquote. Yeah, but it doesn't do it the way that a lot of those games Like Bioshock and brain and other there's many others games that take that control away from you Like the big twist in Bioshock is oh you have been under control someone else the entire time Everything you've done is because they told you to and it becomes like you want to get revenge Like you've got to get you have to you have to break free from this control and you have to get revenge on this person and stop them But in this the game it controls you in a certain way because you can't win It is simply just kind of revealing what you should have what it tells you this the entire way through the game itself I don't really ever present presents that information.
I think I don't think you're ever told explicitly by the game Oh, this is gonna out. Well, absolutely save the universe. Mm-hmm. It is your own Yeah, you assume that you have the unmitigated severity so assume you can you can beat it Yes, you can't and I think it but it doesn't do that with a glee like with like any kind of sneer It doesn't do that with any kind of animosity the game it feels it feels like embrace It feels like you know, you're on your death bed and they're just there alongside you.
Yeah. Well, you don't the whole time You don't realize you're on your death bed. It's really wonderful. Yeah, it's really a really wonderful trip to your death bed I mean, it is a melancholy game.
It really it's super is but it's a fucking masterpiece I don't think it would like I want it to be happy I want it to win and I want the hearthians to be able to live and all this stuff But I think that ultimately the fact that the game gives me that feeling like it's it's it's more complicated The fact that it gives me that feeling and it's I don't know. I wouldn't I wouldn't want it. It really it really is. It's not as good, you know No, it's it's it would be counters to the entire game You know, I think that's the the ending works because the entire game is heading in that It's it tells you it tells you one thing and it is because it's presenting everything to us perspective that doesn't understand it Like you don't understand what has happened in this world You are just like a simple guy and simple alien.
I mean, I think as far as I can tell here they all are these I think I don't think they have a gender I think I believe that some of them are gendered. Okay, I was just looking at the Wikipedia and it just says they All of them. So I didn't know okay, then maybe I'm I'm wrong I don't know if that's it might not be up to date or not I don't know I remember thinking that like this person is and this person is because there's like the little boy and girl At the beginning that you play with I believe that some of them were gendered that way, but it could just be I could just be me like I don't know just misunderstanding things and Putting a binary on shit that isn't there. Maybe they're all are not particularly not gendered who knows But it would be an interesting thing.
It's but the game itself It does not ever depart from that message really and it's telling you that the entire way through And it's just we're used to games that are like on that surface games. Just yeah, of course you're gonna lose You know, we're used to shouting shouting us that we're our defeat is is Ever is is an inevitability And we're going no we are hero we win we defeat you ha ha ha ha But this case the entire message of the game is entropy and but but if you stick through the end credits It's not the end yeah, technically because there's there will be life again billion billions of years later 14.3 billion years later There will be another there will be another race. There will be life again life will find a way And it isn't anything. It is it is not it is not the end it is an end That's a thing that um, it's kind of a fan Fan theory that that's the the signal that they got from the eye of the universe that they say is older than the universe That that's the song like the sound is the song that was played When the last universe ended and that's that's that's what your signal is It's the song that you play when you're in a universe is dying and I thought that was neat whether it's true or not It's pretty interesting.
I mean I it's it's a nice thought, you know, and I think that's the The best games can lead best art in general leave stuff up to interpretation leave stuff to to to you can See yes or no, you know, maybe if they you know, it doesn't give you all the answers Uh, you know in this game certainly doesn't try and do that. I think it is it is It's soft touch. Yeah, it doesn't hold your hand It gives you a world and lets you figure out things for yourself, but it came out nowhere I had seen very little information about this and I was and I think it's last e3 Not this e3 but years 2018 e3 like a one short video of this and it looked really neat And then it came out and suddenly everyone's raving about it. I'm like, I should buy me to play this It looks amazing.
I think um what I had seen is like the original prototypes were made up in um 2012 it's been kicking around a while that makes I mean, that's I would believe it because of the level of yeah level of depth and it would yeah It's not just a simple. Oh, I make this and I make this and then we have a video game It's like trying to figure out all these moving pieces and making them fit together seems very difficult Um, I don't know. It's it's a great game. It's my game of the year so far I can't imagine.
I mean, it would be wonderful if something came out this year that's better than this But this is this is this is in my hall of fame Yeah, this is this is one of my favorites of all time. Oh, I'll have to I'll have to think about it You know and let it sit for a while before I I uh throw it in kipper sound. I think the only thing that My the only thing I think is detrimental to is that there's no I don't think it would be replayable like I kind of like I've finished it and I've done the ending a couple of times And maybe there's a thing or two that I would want to experience again, but I don't know if it's really replayable Maybe in like two years I would come back and you know, I've forgotten Some of these moments and I can kind of half them again I mean, I I think that I don't necessarily need a game to be replayable to be I think that I think in my hall of fame, but right it's not it's not I mean all the other games That I that are like, you know, my my top five are this one kind of isn't it's it's one It's one direction and I I'm gonna literally have to forget stuff about it to enjoy it again I mean, I think that's I mean like a what remains to be attention is like one of my Is another game recent recent game that is immediately like sees my my attention and maybe love it deeply And that's a short game. It's a story game It is there's a lot less depth to it, you know, mechanically than this game But you know, I can I played it three times all the way through it's a very short game So it's a little bit easier to do it's only a couple hours But I've noticed things I've never noticed before each time I'm playing through it's I remember most of the stuff happening But I still there's small little details that add to the storytelling and make it a little bit, you know Change how we feel about a certain character But I mean, I think it's ultimately even games like this that are you know, you play when you go Like a you know, it's linear for the most part because you're ultimately trying to find the right information So you can get to it and then you play again You don't have to if you started a new game from scratch You could go straight to the ending because you don't need to know if you know how to do it It's available right from beginning of the game.
I think it might give you a different ending though I'm not sure about that. I don't know. I'm just saying like mechanically the game is to stop you from getting there because I mean Realistically the first time you play through and the last time when you beat the game No time has passed right. I mean the only thing is different is that you I mean the first time you have to go get the launch codes So that will get up some time and you have to, you know, look at the statue Although I wonder because if you don't look at that statue at the very beginning and you die It gives you the same ending as if when you turn off, you know, you turn off loops later on and die and you just got it You died message But I'm wondering if you get your launch if somehow you get your launch codes fast enough get back your ship fast enough without looking So without getting looking at the statue and then you still get the ending.
I wonder if that's any different it is There is there is I've seen it online. There is this supposed third ending Where you don't you don't look at the statue. You do get the launch codes And I forget where you go to to end the game But I think that and if you if you die before you look at the statue, yeah, you're dead But I do think that there's at least a third ending that is another bad ending I mean I would ending meaning that you don't really get an ending you just get a death Yeah, the only true ending is getting to the eye right, you know, even a small you know marshmallow Get a marshmallow on that fire. It's true Good marshmallow second this game.
It's true. It goes from one degrees to one million degrees in a second Just like real marshmallows. I've never been patient enough to actually roast a marshmallow I immediately just get it on fire. Put out the fire eat it I mean no one else has ever done it in 14.3 billion years.
So it's perfectly acceptably fine perfectly crimeulent. Yeah Anything we haven't whatever we not talked about Eric that we should talk about No, we've pretty well covered all the stuff that I wanted to talk about in this game I can't think of anything else fucker. It's a heartbreaker. It's a great game.
Oh, it's fucking amazing Uh, it's hard encapsulate like I said to start. Yeah, this has been a two-hour conversation I'm sure there'll be a couple of minutes skimmed out of it, but we've been sitting here talking for quite a long time I mean, it's that I mean it is a 20 plus hour game at least if you really want to explore and I think that's that's the We there's a lot of things that we didn't touch on that are also incredible There's this game is filled with those moments of discovery and of all of just like of seeing things that aren't that aren't possible Showing you it shows you impossible things. Yeah, and it's it when you ever you get a game Like it's so refreshing. It's very much it reminds you of what art can do and what different art forms are capable of And uh, I don't want this spectacular.
Now. Are you ready for outer worlds Eric? I don't know that I need to play it or actually maybe it actually look pretty cute It's a fallout like I'll probably I'll play it for sure. So it's not the game that I was thinking Okay, I don't worry.
I just every time now outer worlds is getting a lot of press because it's launching into early access I think it is and it's a fallout. It's like fallout. It's made by a lot of people who made fall out in Vegas Looks like it's called the outer worlds now. Okay, either way.
I immediately go out of worlds outer worlds outer worlds. I'm like, uh, I'll probably I don't know if it's gonna be there's no technical problems You know, I didn't have any technical problems with this game, which is nice. No, I did it does get a little weird like I did manage to glitch I don't even know if I did the right thing. I think maybe maybe I'm glitching my way into the The northern pole of the the quantum moon, but I swear to god, you can fall through the center of the world You just click right through it.
How did you get to the north pole? I traveled to I used the tower To get to to travel to timber hearth and I walked to the north pole timber hearth because there's no obstructions on that planet And I looked around I looked around until the tower came back on the north pole there And then I traveled back into the tower and then traveled from there to Uh, yeah, the right place basically. Yeah, you you went to then that makes perfect sense. I never did that I always did it Gosh is it on on brittle hollow that I but that's the one where the obstructions there I climbed the mountain and just To hopped over it staring at the thing the whole time and you do kind of clip through but it takes you to the other side of the thing I don't I honestly don't think I think that I'm kind of breaking the game doing that hearing you describe that that sounds much more like a solution Um that is inherent the game.
So that's that's how I did it I went to the I went there multiple times and I did it that way every time There's like one specific spot that you can jump off of and um, it it acts like you're gonna clip through it But it you don't like it shows you the inside of the the moon Every time I try to jump over the edges of the low candy. Yeah, you end up at the south pole It's in it's I've only done it in one spot. I go there every time and you have to take a picture of the thing I don't even end up falling in space Yes, you have to take a picture of it and be staring at the thing too And it's always great because your spaceship is on the fucking moon and then all if it It is never the moon has never disappeared on me Well, I'm on it, but I am dreadfully worried that it's going to be but I'm always hopping over it Uh, with the you know with the camera open and all that happy horseshit And it I don't know I never quite clip through the planet and I make it the other side But I hearing you describe that that yeah, that uh I don't think my I there's not a looking online. There's not like a prescriptive way to do it There you can like a lot of like there's certainly like yeah You need to go to get to the end and you have to go to get there You have to go do this and then you go do this but most of the other parts throughout the game It doesn't tell you like oh you can't do it this way Well, like it sets like constraints down, but if you can figure out what another way to do it The game doesn't punish you for that And then you don't have to go to timber hearth.
I know that I know you can go to different planets and still figure out a way to do it I don't even know like all that quantum stuff. I'm still Not want to say clear on everything about it. So I was just like, okay I know I got through it. I got to so I can talk to you and I don't know if you know this area Which I should mention is where we wrap up You can spend you if you stay on the quantum moon with the no my You can stay there past the end of the past the sun exploding Yeah, I did not realize that until for the longest time And you just sit there Oh, I'm pick up But I mean, that's what she's that she it they I heard something I think I read somewhere that they caught it was a she alien But I don't know they they have gender.
I don't know I you couldn't I mean they do because there's all right They they definitely say he and she and I think that's a big part of what was throwing me off on Is most of the pronouns that you see are of the no my that's true because you're reading all their You see you actually get to know them more than you do the hearthians because you're always out from your own planet Yeah Um, anything else you want to say before wrap up? No, man. No, no man. It's a great game tremendous tremendous Uh, and you want to plug Eric where we go?
Um standard stuff. Uh, you can see my portfolio by going to free will unlimited Um and other things I get to online but at ericzgoodnight.com including my instagram and twitter Uh both of which are easy good night. I suppose Uh, I'm also doing some drawing streaming on twitch check me out there also known as easy good night on twitch Um follow me there reach out good times. Oh, thank you for joining me, Eric.
I don't Rock and roll. Thanks again to eric4 joining me. You can find me on twitter at robbiedornan and my website is robbieadornan.com You can find links to all my stuff there my other podcasts and a link to buy my novels on amazon My new novel truth is psychological horror story, but that news host haunted by a specter of truth It's available there as well as conquest. You can also read them for free with kingdom unlimited The show's website is ceo fanaticist.com and you can find us at facebook and facebook.com slash ceo fanaticist If you like the show give it a good review and on apple podcast whatever podcast service you use Subscribe tell your friends all those things help us out help me out help the show out.
I really appreciate it until next time Thanks for being a fan