Hi and welcome to classical stuff. You should know we are a podcast about classical education the classical world old things and All those stuffs things packaging it up to you all in wonderful little podcast you let's you're so fired We've been this is all been a test gram and you feel like you should have a pre-recorded introduction right How boring is that this is a thing that is that what you meant to say? Yeah, I must miss her deal I'm sorry. How boring is that?
Nope. Okay fine. You're recording. Hi Welcome to classical stuff.
You should know somehow was better than the one you just did so podcast about classical education That is how we that's how the three of us down for most people you know that right? I guess so anyway, so my name is Graham Dawson and I am here with Thomas Megbee Hello, and Arthur young Hanenburg or the pause for because he was we was trying to do the nose thing I was trying to figure out your grab me to think grab noses different from Canada It looked like a goose was reaching over your shoulder to grab your nose and why do you want my microphone? I'm a professional One word to describe myself. Yeah, what I am professional would be the word fellas boys brothers what I am is perplexed I don't really know what I'm doing with your life.
Yes in we watch presidential debates in our rhetoric class And we let her we play what's called presidential debate fallacy bingo And we let our students fell out a sheet of logical fallacies and every time that during a presidential debate some nominee Does a logical fallacy? They're allowed to cross it off and the first one to get bingo get some sort of prize It's usually a pretty nice prize, but there's that one debate who I can't remember who he was But it was I think was like in the late 80s early 90s And yeah, yeah, and they told him you know what people don't really know who you are So once you punch up the debate by by starting off by saying who am I why am I here? Admiral Stockdale Admiral Stockdale. So this old Admiral so there you know, it's a sort of railway debate and then they're like and Mr.
Admiral Stockdale, and he goes who am I why am I here? And everyone's like they start laughing at him and didn't really land the way he wanted it to land So we talk about this in terms of life if you're not funny and you can't have things land don't try to force it So we launched the 2016 presidential elections how much fun oh my word you all don't use those we don't use We don't use the tricality debates because it was just mainly at home in them. Yeah, there's not a variety of fallacies on that one There's a lot of it hearing a lot of like just personal attack and on the Republican primaries when we watch those We also have a clause saying anytime someone makes reference to Reagan You're like to do a little like take her a free spot or something because it happens all the time Anyway, but Thomas you were gonna be talking to us about EF Schumacher a guy to her blacks Have we done a podcast on shoe walker for sure so I'm not gonna spend a ton of time on who she mockers himself or an introduction to the book No, have we we have so if Listener if you want to go back and hear more about the man himself you can go back to our episode on at a quattio or Aquattio or a quattio if you want to hear us giggling about how funny that word is for like 40 minutes then boy Oh boy do I have something in store for you? I'm sold I can't wait great I'm doing my drive home.
It's just listening to our giggling for great. We'll have a wonderful time Do we make a joke that it sounds like a Harry Potter spell? Yes, we make a joke. I'm just being funny It's hilarious.
So the book is a guide for the perplexed that is an homage to an earlier book by my monadies I'm the famous Jewish scholar also called a guide for the perplexed She mockers project and this is his opening chapter is to talk about philosophical maps He he's addressing this to people who have had education but have had no framework or how to put all of these things together And that's what the guide for perplexed is for what we covered on our meaning modern education So this book came out in the 70s. I think 1971 is the 77 1977 when this book came out. So yes, that would be my dear. What is my dear?
I began maybe man. I'm six dee seven. I'm just picking a day pick a number. No, there's an era I figured out I think about Crystal Palace.
I think the Chris I've talked about how the The Crystal Palace fair in England with Queen Victoria and Prince whatever his name is Queen Victoria's husband who inaugurates the Crystal Palace fair I've read that one of the podcast before yes, no that's modernism That to me is kind of like demarks this idea of we of the of there's a global economy and we're all working towards sort of the flourishing of the global economy Okay, that's how I go says modern era is 1500 to 1800 except this 1815 So they they so then they would say that what I was describing was something postmodern after that okay, thanks We're gonna look in a book that we've reviewed previously on this podcast something they will not forget I think Gives us gives it from the printing press until World War one and then 1914 the first World War Shatter the Enlightenment myth a perpetual progress The postmodern world is born so anyway, I can get by that one was for free Okay, so she was trying to give people philosophical maps for how to understand the world around them He starts off in discussing levels of being this was covered on our last podcast This is just our this is me breezing through things you can listen to another episode if you want to get the full information The levels of being surround themselves with different materials and how they relate to one another so minerals or things that are not alive at the lowest level of being plants are A step above mineral they have this thing called life what are they so I'm with so around them? You said they these levels of being surround themselves with things We Sorry each level has like different attributes so mineral has material Plant above that has material plus life animal above that has material plus life plus consciousness man above that has material plus life Life plus consciousness plus self-consciousness. So there's a increasing level of complexity. We're all self-conscious But seriously can't talk about that of it's it's a blessing occurs, but we are we both know what we are doing But also can't second guess ourselves which can be good and horrible So there's increasing levels of complexity there.
We then talked about adequateness. That's that funny word I'll quit yo I watch you go I want to go that for us to know anything We must have the exact quote knowing the man's the organ fitted to the object We must be made adequate to a a book made adequate to a piece of arch made adequate to music to get something out of it That is the five-minute version of a one-hour episode that we've already done So sorry everyone who suffered through the one hour when we could have just done that I'm going over a big section in the middle where he talks about four fields of knowledge We'll probably come back to that at some point and we're picking up in the last chapter of the book So let's get at this topic this way. He opens with two examples We'll do the second one gentlemen was the perfect ideal form of education What is the perfect ideal form of education that machine in the matrix that machine in the matrix where you're in your brain You know that and then you know come whoa I know come food or whatever that machine also appears in battlefield earth for anyone Who's wondering the same machine kind of it's supposed to be a language machine But also he it turns out it teaches you pretty much everything else to and is it a shared universe or is it just it's not a sure universe I mean if anybody copied it was the matrix copying from battlefield earth But it's the I told you guys yeah, it's real bad covered that's what I was thinking about So the ideal form of education must be Mimicane me says we talked about that word a few times. So is that the answer?
Yeah? Okay, so we talked about the mises being that the teacher is that's an example for I'm not affirming or denying we're exploring this I'm conscious of you He doesn't just he doesn't want to make you be embarrassed because my answer was so good I'm sorry that you reference the language downloading machine is better than the mises You reference a Scientology propaganda film I reference the matrix first of first which was a giant gem in Hollywood AJ as a Scientologist would of course reference around Harvard first so I think of that Sure, okay, so okay that was an answer so that was awkward This is my this is what you get for getting me off topic which is what the whole point of the podcast is okay So love the title of this review waiting for Donaldson love Graham's sense of humor and insights But those long pauses while he tries to align brain with mouth triggers my anxiety to the point where I need to pop his annex But other than this that's I'd know I instill recommend this wonderful podcast to all who listen five stars I just think I just said that I don't make Donaldson feel like the worst of us This I thought was the funniest review as to where I rank as the three of us This is our most recent review titled the best Donaldson taught me investing I sat in on Hanenburg English class from New Year a lot and bees was always in the hallway All right, sorry Thomas. We were getting off track. No, we were perfectly always very perfectly the best form of education Thank you, so Graham gave an answer.
Hey, would you like to give an answer that is not? Scientology related can you are you capable of an answer that is non-sign? Best form of education is I would say Students all discovery but depends on the virtue of the student interesting. Okay, so we want the students to have kind of an internal self motivation and Find treasures.
I guess an education much of my job Like I can tell it kid as much as I want but chances of them actually carrying that into adulthood our slim So if you just tell me isn't me instilling virtue It would be ideal if the kid had the virtue on their own and their education would come unbidden right they would seek out the good Okay, so then let me okay, I did not expect us to start here But so here is here's a quote from this chapter if I'm hearing you all correctly We do all agree that this is education The educator is like a good gardener whose function is to make available healthy fertile soil in which a young plant can grow strong roots Through these it will extract the nutrients it requires the young plant will develop in accordance with its own laws of being Which are far more subtle than a human can fathom and will develop best when it has the greatest possible freedom to choose exactly the nutrients It needs yes. Oh, yeah, yeah It is pointing to himself because I think you want to show a point is that okay? Can I point are there any weaknesses to this so you know, so the three of us are sitting in this room? But you know we have our listeners who some of them are yelling out there a Walkman, that's how everyone listens to this podcast right with their People who are yelling at us right now.
What are they what are they responding? I would say that if it was me like we that is Best case scenario for education where every seed wants to grow Many of those seeds are still in the tree and I have fallen into the soil many have fallen into the soil soil and said to hack with your soil I want to go be a duck and Have nothing to do with your growing place, right? Also, I hate the gardener. I hate a stupid face and he doesn't like me either and nothing's going well in this horrible garden Right, so I guess that's yeah, it's fine as an ideal but practically the way our modern education is set up It's not usually bad.
Let's take a different way. What if the student is super motivated, but they Only want to read I think of it in bear. What's it? They only want to read the hunger games or they only like they are super motivated But they only care about young adult dystopian.
That's the teacher providing the soil, right? So that's like the soil there is bad so but basically what we want the students engaged in that material So one way to do that is to lower the level of the material right so that it's at the level They are instead of slightly above and challenging them right right so would we say that's a good thing to only ever be at the level of the student Ramel cookies no because um Those lower for those lower arts those lower forms of of literature don't have enough in them to for the soil to wrestle with in order and In order in order to be others in my brain I'm self-conscious about thinking too much But those books don't have enough in them They don't have enough five sorry, that's your friend. Yes So the soil those books don't have enough in them for the soil to wrestle with for the higher virtues in the higher person to be formed um, like the adventure story is only Only touch touches on so many shades of a person so like the characters are shallow or you have a character in there Who's only job is to be the foil or the antagonist? Whereas when you have better pieces of literature we've talked about this a lot You have enough for the person to spend a lifetime wrestling with like I guess like there's enough to be able to say ah Disius on his journey home has enough of me to contemplate and wrestle with with the idea of the ideal type then Katniss Everdeen fighting the bad guys So I think tying this in The that first view that we just that I just read the description of teachers are good gardeners There's soil that we put them in the young plant grows according to his or her internal Laws like they will grow up just by being a good soil all that is student focused which is good students are great We love students it kind of ignores the content that's being taught right?
There's nothing in that in that answer that says you're giving them things that are great beautiful Isn't it? Yeah, I think that the soil of the metaphor is that you've provided the environment for the salt or the seed to grow in accordance with this nature So the content that you're using is is the is the good soil of the garden? This is interesting. I so the answer I thought you would give was something closer to this and then tell me tell me how you feel on this Quicks box us in Maggie this I keep trying but you won't fall for my tricks Okay, education is the process by which existing culture is passed on from one generation to the next those who have or presume to have knowledge and experience teach and those who Has yet a lack knowledge and experience learn for this process to be effective authority and discipline must be set up Are you that too?
That sounds like two different ways of going about finding education one is like the nice metaphor about You know letting the plant grow and the other one is the utilitarian one that we just read from the manual, right? Interesting I wouldn't I wouldn't say it's totally utilitarian because there's something the first quote we went through says nothing about the Order and discipline because the kid in the right environment. That's the soil and desires are naturally No, it will naturally be a good student who will read whatever's put before them engage with the material and Grow and develop as is natural to their soul But even when you're growing trees and plants you need to have a trellis for your beans You need to have you need to stake a new tree I was gonna say the way you saw that as you add the gardener with a good set of pruning shears I'm not providing good soil right so you just have ways to snip off those little parts that are going wrong That's right. It's funny because when I read soil, I'm not thinking Environment of like the school is a place they like to be more so than the books themselves.
It's where they get all nutrients Yeah, but also again from that first one the through these the seed will extract the nutrients it requires Like it's the seed that is getting what they need from around them. Mm-hmm I guess it's around them is if the soil is rather like the material Then they're getting them, you know, I think one view focuses on the student which is good important and another answer focuses on the content itself That's all that's the only very very minute point. Well the content itself or also the the transmission of a tradition Yes, and so that that tradition has to be mediated somehow So that would be either the teacher let me just what we talk about or the books themselves like care Were you trying to make a really simple point? We have simply belavored it is that what happened?
That's you've described our podcast in one sentence, but so no this is an introduction this conversation matters to where we'll go from here because It's no good just to say like well We need to get our kids reading and so we seem to find the thing that the kid likes and kids like I went to the library I got book of farts. It's like oh great, and we're like well at least he's reading I've never bought that as like a as a win that's not a win that he's reading because he's reading a book on farts Not really because if your options are they read no books or they read one book on farts you rather they read no books Why are those it's only two options because I set it up that way no because the third option is they read the books that are good that we've assigned Good, but some anyway This this literally is a tangent but not everyone in maybe our environment everyone will read those books Why do French children like stinky cheese because they are given stinky cheese from a young age and and I when I Started eating cheese or when I when I wanted to or when I realized that there was better food in this world than going to Applebee's Or whatever actually don't have all these in Canada. I've actually never been an Applebee's you are missing out But we've got what's that free breadsticks place? Oh, I'll go all of that.
All right, so like whatever There's better food than Olive Garden you go and you actually have to unlearn food habits when you start eating better food So eventually that kid is gonna have to unlearn fart books if he is actually ever going to get enjoy the real book It's just like whereas the French child enjoys stinky cheese because that's all they get right and if they don't want it They go hungry right drink snack time or whatever so I kind of feel like there's an analogy to that as well which is give them the hard books and Like have a teacher who can teach them and make them relevant and alive to the student as opposed to be like We need to get him reading on just whatever he wants and then he's just gonna go with sort of the lowest common denominator Sure I guess what I'm reacting to in my surprise and hearing you all start with that first quote that I read but actually is the second quote in This book is I would associate that with more of a Montessori method self discovery. Yeah Yeah, so again literally the teacher is not a teacher It's the teacher is guiding them. Yeah, you're trying to do this. You know, why don't you try this way?
I think in our method we are playing a lot more emphasis on the role of the gardener than Montessori one does The one story is more like a zookeeper, but I would say a traditional a zookeeper. That's a fair analogy The eight traditional catholic cat that was it okay a traditional classical method would say that what is or busted? Did you like that? You know we got about like why not?
Why are you talking about why are you talking about saints? That was great. Yeah, we'll talk about later I don't know if we will probably when I do long off revenge leave talk about processing I got you but where was I a key component of classical education is the material itself like the books themselves matter The content that is taught matters. This is something this is all tangent.
So sorry. Let's not hope you enjoy this So it is helpful to have the Dorothy Sayers re-imagining of classical education, but that is not the entirety of classical education The entire classical education is not a method of not a grammar. It's not just a grammar logic rhetoric It's act with the actual material itself Yes, which historically would have been the teaching of a class that is rhetoric a class that is grammar a class that is logic Yeah, that's like that's on the material itself matters in a classical pedagogy And so it's just interesting to hear you all are classical educators following under a Montessori definition Tell me that my categories are bad a Montessori is more is like anemic classical like Montessori is a lot of classical Methodology, but without the content without the classical content Yeah But because but we don't have the self discovery in the same way of like let the child figure out what they want to do I also have this is probably gonna showcase my lack of knowledge of the Montessori method, but we do have a lot of students coming to conclusions through guided conversation through the hardness conversation But I was gonna say my senior class in English. That's mostly what I do is say Okay, you talk and if you get stuck, I have good questions for you Yeah, and that's I think I had a stereotype of Montessori, but then after having we have kids at our church that are part of Montessori schools And they are well spoken and they are curious and like there's a lot of good to that method Yeah, I don't want to just totally bash that that's I almost appreciate that you all I think you yourself more that way Yes, plus the material that you're doing.
I think the classical education movement and the Montessori movement are Closer in kind we're like cousins so that we and since we're sitting in the same family We can be more critical of each other whereas classical education and more sort of progressive public education are so far different that That there's there's not a lot of like even curbsy. Yeah, so it's more like you can be more critical of not critical, but They're both against the system. Yeah, because we're sort of both outside the domain system where we can we We can quibble over the details, but we're both but I would but we're both doing speaking for my boss we're both doing better than then sort of the inherited dewy John dewy system that's kind of turned into this monstrosity of of sort of State state Education is kind of become a handmaiden of Whatever we want to get more training is conspiracy podcast again All right, so that so where are we right now? So we're 25 minutes in on these two different types of education that we think we might have reconciled But it can be acknowledged there's some type of tension there between putting yes So that the content is the most important or the student is most important.
Yes, definitely Sure, and even you all probably feel that in your classroom to say at some points You'll have to say student you're wrong. Yes, we fall in the classical movement We fall down we side more if there's push and shove content is the is the the guy Or the one that guides or the north star. Yeah, but then let's take so we education We've talked about leave that in one category there We have two different methods that we've just acknowledged there There's kind of attention there, but both are kind of good, but they're also kind of bad leave that in one category Let's make a different category Let's say that I wanted to make a the example Schumacher uses a bicycle But I'm sure you all will come up with a different example as I go if I wanted to Wiggling about categories is what ajion I do that it is basically your job is a hot dog sandwich. Yes, objectively Is hot dog sandwich?
I'm not doing the bun but it's joint. No, it doesn't matter. It's me. It's really important So it was a note.
Okay. What's frustrating is that this is going to be the thing we Are talking about and they gave the topic itself. Okay, so if I wanted to go and design a bicycle How many different ways of making a bicycle would I come up with wait? Do I still need to be a by like doesn't need to be a real?
Yeah, it's only too. We'll be up I'm just asking I'm yes, I'm not just telling the way to be peddled with your hands I think literally infinite there are literally infinite but Graham if your first example is peddled with your hands is that If I was looking for like a device or that's a normal bike Graham You're just upside down is that no, but but you understand that if I were so when we look at like old timey pictures of bikes I'm not like the big wheel in the front little wheel in the bag Yeah, or what other old timey bicycles are there still when it comes to mind or I could go have one type back there apparently Yes, but but if I were to look at all bicycles that are available right now, do they look very different or do they look? I'm sorry, but yeah, but see how these are two different categories one is a bicycle where kind of all of them look the same I'm sure there are important differences and someone will email me about the difference of certain metals for your bike or whatever But there are lots of lots of bikes look the same But there are many different types of education that are offered or many different views of education that are put out there are many different types of schools Mm-hmm, that makes sense and you're asking whether or not it's the difference between a bicycle with an aluminum frame versus a wooden frame Or is the difference between a bicycle with like the giant wheel little wheel I was talking about doing difference or degrees in kind I was thinking giant wheel that we don't see that type of bicycle anymore bicycles have largely yeah converge I'm much nice Yeah on one specific type while views on education a topic that has been debated for I don't know the history of the world And we still don't have an answer on that sure and many different options are still offered and people will argue for each one So the three of us will sit here and Graham a second ago say that public school is this like We would be critical of it. We'd be critical of public school, but people could listen to this podcast They're not critical of the idea of a public school I'm critical of I'm critical of people who would even defend the current way public school looks yeah, right like who would finally disagree with us Saying that there are like major problems.
They would say they're minor tweaks that need to be made or whatever sure that people will disagree Genuinely with us on the topic of education as opposed to a more technological question of like the best type of bicycle What am I repeating this over and over again? Okay, these are two different types of problems This is what Schumacher setting up the name of this chapter as I think I said before is the two types of problems So in this first type of problem the more smart people and even to look at the time We spent three minutes talking about bicycles in 25 on education This is this is indicative of these two types of problems that the first type converge on a solution when you have enough smart people Looking at how to solve the problem of transportation by pedaling they come up to basically the same solution over and over again Or when this when one solution was presented and kind of took root into a cold people were like, yeah, we don't really need to improve upon this Yes, exactly or even it's not worth improving. Yeah, like you can have minor incremental changes But it's basically kind of installed like those bikes that people ride that they're like really low when they're sitting in the You know what I'm talking about where they're kind of leaning back on them. Yeah, it almost looks like a rowing machine But there's maybe and but also very few people probably use those I'm either wonderful So those solutions have largely been solved and then moved on from as opposed to divergent problems that the more people think on a problem such as Education the more they will come to different widely different conclusions.
Gotcha the so what are they take to categories divergent and divergent? Ah, so convergent solution should muckable put it will include under that science technology like like a chair Here's what chairs one of your better and worst chairs, but basically most chairs will converge on a single type of chair You'll have differences in aesthetics, but not in like functionality. Mm-hmm is what he will say as opposed to divergent problems Which are the big problem like how do you how do you train a child? Yeah, there's a good one or two patients the big one and then politics is the second one I'll talk about that the more that you think on politics you will not come to some Solutions there's not one sort of just around the next corner final solution.
That's like make some problems go away Exactly. So he what is this so he includes so other convergent problems include it's a We can say therefore that convergence may be expected with regard to any problem which does not involve life consciousness self-awareness Which means in the fields of physics chemistry astronomy and also in abstract spheres like geometry and mathematics or games like chess those those fields Will converge on single correct solutions? Does this bear? I think it's back on this one, okay, but then his point is that problems that fall in the sphere of divergent problems break down into two fundamental Categories, and you all think of some grouping that I could so if I were to describe Now I feel badly calling a classical versus Montessori, but I use those as short hands for the conversation we just had But is there some way of dislike what is the one that is more focused on material passing on of Content traditional what that would be one way to describe that as opposed to a free form self discovery Recent conservative liberal or the two that's a way to do it.
I wasn't one based on one is more freedom one is based on more One is a church's conserving a tradition and passing it on one is based on the the user or the other students Liberating him or herself through learning. Yeah, I'm glad you gave more examples than just the bike I feel like the bike is an unfair analogy because the bike is a near perfect machine, right? Interesting It's true. It's one of the most efficient machines that man has ever created from getting point it's a point a point B I think that's the point yeah, yeah, I mean that's kind of the point but but like But like physics geometry those are more helpful.
Yeah, those are more helpful because it's none of those are totally perfect machines Well, hopefully eventually converge but there are really big varying Theories out there right now, especially about like the nature of the universe as far as like string theory and really but I'm saying so like so in physics If I want to calculate force it is mass time deceleration. There's no it is a solvable thing There's no question about that calculate a different way, but it's not gonna be but even if you that's on say Correctly I can do it times for anything if I want to do a chemical equation and I do my stoichiometry and balance both sides I have solved that equation sure and I'm oversimplifying but Those are questions with answers. I guess but there's also like if you put a child in a room and tried and teach him But you're also filling that room with like argon gas or you're also playing really loud kind of school Hi or or if you while the child is learning you've got like death metal blaring in the speakers There is that that would be less efficient than any other model like there are still interesting Better and worse ways of doing things so it's not completely divergent. Yeah, we've convert like usually it's a student and a teacher Sure, somehow interacting as there were small difference someone who knows and someone who's learning anyway, we're quipplin No, I like that no interesting so maybe even within a big field like education There are some things we agree on but then still lots of things we disagree on and maybe even in politics We would say rule of law is important property rights are important following laws is important But like then we have wild disagreements after that.
Yes, therefore what law should we pass right? Yeah, our points of agreement. Yeah, I'm just glad you clarified a lot more because the bike is a it's tough to get better than the bike man That's what a great machine, but that's yeah. Yeah, and same with Rehashing this no, I get like converging makes sense.
I'm a virgin So a convergent problem should have a perfect solution that better solves whatever So we used a few words right there Schumacher will say that the two categories he uses yes He does two different names for them one is growth versus decay I don't really like that one his other one is freedom versus order that in divergent problems You'll have an option that leans more toward freedom and you'll have one option that leans more toward order So again in our education example the student focused would be focused more on freedom Self discovery and kind of do whatever they want to learn something as opposed to authority and discipline teach the content Order getting that passed on from one generation to the next Don't you make the second one sounds so sort of draconian like when you say order It doesn't just mean teach the content and like ensure that they do it There's also the sense of that a rightly ordered soul is needed for freedom I don't know like I think I think there you're sort of getting stuck on the polarity Well, there the truth is there's a continuum there right doesn't have to be draconian to be orderly Yeah, yeah, I describe it that way. That's what Graham is saying I think that's fair is that it ordered is not I'm listening to this is sorry This is wild tangent on recommendation from co-worker here I'm going through the rise and fall of the third Reich so like the history world will do and And so that's a story of order being used in a really bad way It's not bouncing in my head right now But like the dangers of a well-oiled machine toward an evil and maybe that's maybe that's what you're doing right now Or it does not have to be evil yeah, and freedom is not the free and I just do whatever he wants is also not So that's kind of so again and maybe also what I'm reacting to is that he pairs these growth is is paired with freedom orders paired with decay And what he means yeah bogus, but what he's getting at is that so imagine a an ecological system where there are no predators and the world only in that whatever lives there only grows you reach a point where The environment cannot sustain correct whatever is just growing yet forever But so that's a little you need the colony collapses eventually exactly and so then everything dies because whatever I don't know animal social order that's always been my excuse as to why I don't even need to clean out the fridge Eventually the yo's right here, but it's nothing left Little battles. Yeah, we'll look in and find the one single winner Let him grow until there's no more food and it's terrifying But then so that's then what order is doing order is saying that there are like limits to how far is appropriate growth and I even you and that was appropriate growth, but also it's limiting what is Learned or ingested right like don't give them craft singles give them fancy cheese you say that I had a um Isn't that is that not fair? No, it's very fair But what I today just today listeners we're recording this I had a grilled cheese that had what's that disgusting cheese that you don't have Crossing a velveeta velveeta real cheese and it comes in a can it's a box.
Thank you very much and it is box I can't wait. I was wonderful anyway. Hey, velveeta is delicious. I can't describe products So if you want to send a sweatshirt if you're listening sponsor this right?
Yeah, we've been talking about a story thing so Austin school for wizards if you want to send me a sweatshirt Like I am in school. I would kill for a wizarding school to this podcast. I don't know man I hope I think all of our listeners are wizards, but so where are we right now? There are there's a fundamental tension between these two things between freedom and order specifically is what he's getting at and that you can't solve that problem That those two things will be in tension even what we've said so far I'm containing it to the education sphere because I don't really want to talk about politics But it applies in both spheres that you actually kind of need both that there's some level of This is maybe the tension of like dialectic analytics that you need to have or if you want to even be biblical Jeremiah's tearing down and building up Yes, and that's all those things all these are tied together So you in an education system just to focus it there You need both some level of freedom because you want students engaged learning and there is something like natural to them Too much of them that wants to learn but then you need order as well that they need to learn what it is to love the right things Or do the right things and they might not get there on the run.
So these two things end up being in tension Any we agree we're good with this. Okay, she might have an interesting idea that so these two things are in tension and I think one way of understanding that is to say well Therefore, there'll always be intention and we can't do anything about it Like there will be freedom people and order people and those two people always disagree with one another And so we'll always have different types of education systems will always disagree about the right type of education system And we just live with that until the end of time. Mm-hmm. Just kind of a bummer that kind of a bummer time Well, the three people are wrong But right now we're at this going I don't know where I don't know where you think it's going We're gonna see how pan's out.
I'm gonna won't guarantee it's not going there Okay, so what Schumacher will say is that there's actually something above freedom and order that will dictate how we pick one versus the other So if we write rightly understood we need both of them. Is it any ground number? Yes, any of them No, anyway, I think I'm kind of came around in the 50s, but anyway, is it any gram real anyway? Okay, so I think yes Thank you that's what I said to you about the other fathers Okay, I'll just read this quote here because I'm rambling and needless to refocus me in the life of societies There is the need for both justice and mercy justice without mercy Saitama's Aquinas is cruelty mercy without justice is the mother of disillusion a very clear identification of a divergent problem Justice is a denial of mercy and mercy is a denial of justice only a higher force can reconcile those opposites wisdom The problem cannot be solved, but wisdom can transcend it similarly societies need stability and change tradition and innovation public interest and private interest Planning and law's affair order and freedom growth and decay everywhere societies health depends on the simultaneous pursuit of mutually opposed activities or aims The adoption of a final solution means a kind of death sentence for man's humanity and spells either cruelty or disillusion in generally both So I mean there needs to be a cycle is what he said I don't like like I like any ecosystem like there's growth.
There's decay there needs to be no I think you would say that there I think there's an ideal balance of the two and we get mediated by wisdom mediated by wisdom And I might even he does not make the statement age. I disagree. I'm excited He does not make the statement I would say that instead of wisdom he would better be better served to use the word prudence which is a Virtue like the answer to this is that there are two things in tension and we need a virtue to understand the right amount of each of those Things to bring in Okay, the wise gardens. I still say hogwash good.
Why do you think we're excited? So where you clearly thought was going to be? I thought I was going somewhere else and that's why I say hogwash He has said that we don't have to choose between the two but we need some sort of prudence to like pick a little bits from both sides And I'm like we do maintain them in tension I think that's based on a fundamental interest on like misunderstanding of How these two things interact right? I don't I don't think they are intention and I think that's what Graham has been driving at this whole time Is that order and freedom when unified bring perfect peace right perfectly?
Perfectly ordered life brings freedom right right a three order right? Yeah, exactly and a perfectly free life is only achieved through order right? So those two can only be completely functional when it does completely intend them and then like he even said like Self-interest and interest of the group right to truly like pursue self-interest You have to pursue the interest of the group because if you only pursue self-interest You will end up like stranded and alone and with nothing but and then if you want to pursue the interest of the group Sometimes that means pursuing the interest itself right so like they are not perfectly intention I think it's just a misunderstanding of these these opposites right to say they're opposites But we need something above them to kind of pick and choose them is to misunderstand what they are I can give you an example So I don't have the freedom currently in my life right now to sit down and effortlessly play a piano Sure When I see people who can I think to myself man You also how great would that be just to sit there and it is and it is a type of freedom the freedom to be able to just sit and play The only way that you get there is if you have the discipline and you have the order you have an ordered life in order to discipline yourself to learn and to practice so The discipline the order begets freedom But you also need a certain degree of freedom in your life in order to apply the discipline I couldn't apply the discipline if I had no freedom of time if I had no ability to To dedicate a half an hour every day to this so these things yeah I don't know if saying that their intention is the right way to phrase it that these things have to work together same thing appear Intention same with justice and mercy Or maybe maybe justice and mercy is more of attention but it's attention that's finds its rest or that finds its perfection in God that circle gets Swared somehow that's right history of the best they work together But with the world I think we're all agreeing with each other because even What equine is this point is that justice without mercy or mercy without justice is Tyranny yes is miserable you do need both agree with that but to say it's an illusion is to say that there's no actual disagreement between Republicans and Democrats what actual disagreement between Montessori and classical actual disagreement between pickers because it's because both of those sides are Focusing on one maybe to the detriment of the other yes, and that's your point is that it's wisdom But there's something like transcends Saying only order is good or only freedom is good. Yeah, I agree with you those are that is a weekend position to say only one is good You do in fact need both but we need a way to understand how much of both I think using using freedom order is a is confuttling the issue because those two are best when Complactus practice both completely and to their fullness and together right whereas I think some of the other tensions you're talking about right so like That's a true tension.
We can't like those are not both brought into their fullness when practiced at the same time They are two different pedagogy methods and cannot be practiced at the same time It does I think so like the whole freedom order thing is kind of confuttling I think it's I think we're so these are two conversations one's happening one level above the others but the level of tactics and like Actual beliefs there are disagreements. I'm talking one level above that it's like You have to understand your principles for why you believe one thing or another like do you make a decision based on the cost of a policy? Do you make a decision based on human suffering like you know like how you make that a Selection and that's the level where ordering freedom exists. Yes level above and so then you say do I value order more?
Do I value freedom more and then that will influence what type of education system or what type of like we don't let our kids choose What books we read correct? So at that decision We've decided that decision is going to be ordered right but in the way of the classroom is run We allow students to follow down little rabbit trails that to some people coming into the classroom think that it's maybe a waste of time Or maybe it's it's a bad idea like special night great right when remember what like they argued about like different kinds of grass and you had to step in and I really and they're like well it depends on if it's Babylonian or Egyptian grass I was like no it doesn't you're gonna get back to the actual Oh you know But it's just because I become the joke of so then there's there's there's that's a freedom thing But then the order needs to come in but what you're saying is that AJ represents the wisdom of how freedom order should work together Which is the point to get to of it's all about the teacher I'm sure which I guess is the point of many times but just to say that or the teacher isn't I don't know if I'm getting there I don't know if I would agree with that frame because yeah I'm trying to get to a point of saying this is a I'm using education as a lens through which to understand many things in that The fundamental point is to say disagree you should reject the dichotomies You should reject the choose one or choose the other yeah because of what AJ is saying because there's actually some underlying unifying principle I think we can actually reach agreement on name your issue. Yeah types of education views on things like name your thing I think there's more possibility for agreement if we move up one level Which is what AJ is saying to the level of Ordering freedom is one way growth and decay is another way to say it at that level of principle is that fair? No, no, no, no, these principles like need each other to be to work.
Yeah I I yeah, I still think the whole freedom order thing is difficult because like even to bring that into the educational sphere, right? We we bring freedom to the soul through helping a student correctly order that soul But we can only help a student to quickly order that soul if we make them free within the educational sphere to pursue their interests To feel as though they're not being abused to feel as though it's not to come like right I cannot I literally can't do one without the other and so it's not a question of favoring It's question of like sure. How do I bring both into fruition the classroom? Can you imagine a teacher who only has ordered who known some?
Because the students come in they don't talk they receive a lecture for 15 minutes They leave the class there's no interaction between the two can you also listen that bad? Yeah, I'm clearly talking about you know or can you imagine a class that is total freedom the kids? There's no difference between the hallway and their room that they talk the entire time the teacher can't wrangle them together They leave having learned nothing that those two extremes do exist in listener that I was not the first one having learned nothing to hear I'd say it's a failure to understand the unification of those two principles But in some instances like a lot of the polarities you mentioned like they really are polarized and you have to sort of find a balance between That's a good thing. But even on those two hyperbole I just used the teacher who is full order would say look my job is to convey this information to them And I've done that through them being silent and listening to me for 15 minutes Well, also the one on the freedom side would say I care about relationship with the student And so I need I can't put any structure in place or else they will not trust me and won't talk to me And I can't minister get to know them whatever like they have reasons why they think they're right in both cases The what we're saying is they're wrong both are both are both are failing in some significant way and that there's like a deeper I'm rejecting the simple solution of saying only order or only that we can actually bring those together and it's a better solution to have both of those put together Yes, I guess what I'm driving at is that like some some polarities are able to be completely unified in fullness And some polarities you have to pick and choose and like find a medium ground right there It's two different kinds of polarities and that's I don't really want to talk about this But I do wonder about this in the political sphere as well like so there's one way of Thinking about disagreements with other people where you where your goal is compromise compromise being green has a position I have a position we get 50% of what we want yes, and so we both lose like you know if you get a 50% in the class you fail that Well, I'm wondering if there's some way in which we each get 80 or Where there's some third where I come in saying I want this specific policy green one specific policy And we actually throw both of those out and come up with a third cooperative option Yeah, because what we've looked at is instead the principles of Freedom and order or growth and decay or pick your values that that's more what I'm getting at with this Yeah, I think we're saying the same thing.
It just depends like I'm not sure I think there might be instances where that kind of unifying principle is impossible And so there has to be some sort of compromise right yes, but I'm saying Schumacher will say that the answer is found through wisdom and again I think prudence is a better word for that I agree, but that the cultivation of wisdom will say that some compromises are worse than others and that there are actually better options than others So he doesn't like people that operate under a school of thought he prefers people that are Maybe the in the political sphere one thing you would call them is maybe negatively we call them pragmatists Maybe positively you would call them states Mm-hmm this idea that like there are people who go into politics that have a school of thought like Bernie Sanders has a school of thought about How the state should be how something should be run not to get political on the podcast But you know there's somebody that has a school of thought about here These solutions to the common problems in this school of thought that I have no matter what the disagreement is my answer It's gonna stay the same. I'm gonna start to keep hammering this versus somebody that says I don't have a school of thought. I just want to I just want to be able to make compromises or be able to Oh gosh, I was gonna say get make deals That's totally fair cuz you're talking about two different kinds of people and I think they're like I don't have a school of thought I was like moving shake isn't necessarily an effective Either I think we do like to believe things well. Yeah, it is it is actually impossible to operate outside of school thought like CS Lewis is abolition of man the second chapter is all about this the towel you cannot operate outside of a set of values But you are talking about people who rigidly adhere to a singular like a singular school and then are unwilling and apply that school to every situation Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we're I think we're agreeing on this great job boys.
We all agree I think so well done. Thank you. I love our good on the kind of three goes bust Graham looks confused. No, I just I just like this idea of Ridgily holding to a school of thought versus Not I mean like what's the opposite of that I agree a J you got like someone can't put your eyes in the drink second Oh, I second I second I'm not gonna.
That's a conversion. That's what we're doing the wrong conversation I feel like yeah, I get the sense that you can't operate outside of set of values But the thing is with when CS Lewis is talking about the towel He's saying there really is only there's there's like universal set of human values and then different people will focus in on subsets of those values So like the Romans will sub will focus in completely on a set of values that that that enlarges honor and maybe diminishes mercy So what you're talking about is a certain set of people that like over blow one of the values to insane proportions Yeah, like so if you wanted to over blow equality in in in distributions of Opportunity and means and wealth in society. That's a that's more of a school of thought than it is Then been then saying I want I don't know It's more fruitful great as we're going with more fruitful look at level of if we've out because we value mercy is a thing that we value But then you can't argue the tactics of that you can there are many ways to be merciful to name whatever group of group of people I just imagine group whatever there many you can be creative with solutions at the principal level But to only argue this tactic is what must happen. Yes, no way of getting past that Yeah, I want this tactic I don't want this tactic that's kind of the end of it Yeah, as opposed to saying we agree on collective values.
What do we then do with that? Yeah, is that that's more I'm trying to get to mm-hmm Yeah, and then I mean in the political realm when you have people entrenched on different sides like imagine if someone on the opposite side of a Political party could get the other sides agenda passed Yes, but they would get the credit for it you imagine that they that even though you get your agenda passed The hatred of the other side is so strong that they wouldn't want the agenda passed because it was done by the other guy So that's a whole other different petty problems But but yeah operating at the school I mean schools of thought no This is an interesting question. I really know what my takeaway is your takeaway is that there are in the last five minutes This is perfect your takeaway is that there are two different types of problems one of them are there are convergent problems Which have single solutions once answered moving on them and then there are divergent problems and those divergent ones You should not expect unanimity on unity is impossible on a divergent problem And in the realm of the divergent you should be comfortable talking with other people about why you believe those specific things such that you can People are not idiots for disagreeing with you on the type of education educational method that you use or the political view that they hold or insert your thing here and that's your capable of conversation with other people because you have a common moral language between you you You might wait those things differently. It's what AJ is saying, but you still have a common like playing field for all Right, I think that's the right and then final takeaway is that the bike is in your perfect machine I'm just awfully nice in the fall in the car listening to this while cycling.
We just had a perfect day No, really like go look at that It's something like 98% energy conversion in like converting energy to work It's like 98% the bicycle is insane as far as efficiency of maintenance of work looks like a gas car car only like 30 or 40 Yeah, but it's like 98% it's crazy. It's got a figure out. Yeah for really Look at those things insane. All right.
That's all I got well this has been classical stuff You should know if you have any questions concerns or comments, please email us at classical stuff at veritasacademy.net What was the other thing that we were like? Oh crap? This is gonna be their big takeaway that they need to be today. Yeah, you're like they're not gonna get anything else All they're gonna all they're gonna email us about is this whatever that was 40 minutes ago.
Please email us about that You can tweet us about what was about by school designs right about aluminum versus wood. Yeah, yeah You can you think I'm paying attention to the conversation I'm acting classical stuff CLSCAL stuff on Twitter and I will like and retweet things back to you I'm the last time I did that I interacted with the fan I told a charming anecdote about an interaction that I had with Margaret atwood and then they added Margaret atwood It's an I'm embarrassed because a Margaret atwood reads that she's not remember me Also, she's never going to react and she would probably never gonna react to that So there you go. Yeah, and then you can find all of our back episodes at classical stuff.net and we got we're probably gonna be working on Some way to make those even more easily available. I don't know.
We got to go to the website They're right there. Okay. Yeah, I was scrolling on iTunes and there was some iTunes pages that had more than 100 podcasts Listen, I was jelly it's because we host through squarespace. Oh Yeah, our host will not will not keep it up past 100 cents.
Okay. Well, thanks for listening This has been Graham Thomas and AJ signing off and we will be back next week. Yes with us another thrilling topic Well from the classical world truth by sweet ending