114: Climbing Parnassus

Hi and welcome to wait. What is this again? It's been a while. Yes, it has been a while We're is this a podcast?

I think so. Well, that's why we're here. You guys seem vaguely familiar. Oh, yes classical stuff That's what this is welcome to classical stuff.

You should know This is a podcast about classical education the classical world things to do with the antiquity things to do with the Middle Ages How could we through and some we throw in some enlightenment there and you talk about whatever we want to but it's used as to do with education And but anyway, we are three guys. We work at a classical school called Veritas Academy classical Christian school here in Austin, Texas My name is Graham Donaldson and I am joined by AJ Hennenberg. That's me and Thomas Fletcher Maggie Hello, and how long has it been since we've put an episode when we went when did we three last meet again? Do you believe me if I said November 19?

Was it November? Yeah? Would you believe me? I wouldn't believe you I don't I look like I believe you November 19 is what this says I do believe we put out a three-minute podcast Here I believe granted you do that episode.

Yeah, I still got something wrong Yes, no, it's been a while but anyway, we are back our Christmas season is over We took a nice little break to be with family and to celebrate the birth of our Lord and we're back And it's a new year and ready to cast some pods with you find fellows wonderful. I guess so we took Evan off We took Christmas we took 12 days of Christmas. We took epiphany. We took a half new years epiphany years epiphany time Yeah, I mean I've probably the Magi are still on their way back to where they're going That's what we're waiting for so if we're really gonna sell it at Christmas and do it like the magic.

Uh-huh. That's true. You should take some time Actually, that's probably a fun podcast is to like talk about what the who we're the magi. Hmm or what the heck was the star?

This is good. Oh, it was a hairy Ron and Hermione with the stars where the where the magic Crushing it journeying into the filthy world of muggles. Okay, okay, that sounds about right Awesome, what are we talking about today? They're pleasure.

Yep. That is in fact my middle name. We although hi audience We're glad to be here. This is your first episode.

You probably have no idea. Yeah, we apologize Thanks much time off. I have family in town up until literally a half hour ago. Yeah, my family town was moving Yeah, moving Christmas Thomas would baptize his kid today.

Yeah, that was exciting. That was a great day. Yeah It was really good day. I guess we had family in family wasn't down also But anyway, the moment that I knew we were going to be taking a long break is when we looked and saw how we had overlapping Travel schedules over Christmas and I think Graham was the one who first saw that we have to record 10 episodes in one Saturday I'm gonna see heavy.

So that's a heavy episode. Yeah impact did not happen. So what are we learning today? I don't know what you want to talk about now, okay?

We are gonna be talking about a book today, which means an old Shark, yes So let me let you know the book review at some point so you know Four out of four stars. It was a good book. Okay, so we will be talking about a book called climbing part nassus Gentlemen, is this a book that you have heard of before? No, no cool.

Fine. Parnassus is a mountain Parnassus is a mountain meaning hat one to nil to be clear. I did not ask that as a question. So I don't know if that counts the points, but Thank you.

I was simply being courteous. Thank you. You know, I'm here exactly right. Thank you points for being courteous You're my every mirror on the points.

No, I just anyway, I like it. You know, just both keep your own separate tally of points I always do that's exactly good. That's the only reason you keep doing this podcast, right? He won that's a humility point Wait, what another different kinds of points?

I can't I can't do this. Okay, so what is called playing Parnassus? It is by an author. The author's name is Tracy Lee Simmons.

It is Tracy. That's the name Tracy Lee Simmons ring a bell. No, no does not. All right.

Wow, this is exciting. I Hope so I think this will be whatever. I think all of my episodes are interesting. We'll see how you'll feel about 30 minutes in That's probably when we'll check in and see who's falling asleep.

So Cloning for nassus is a book is a book written in defense of the teaching Greek in Latin in school Specifically in defense of teaching Greek and Latin in classical schools I think would be the best way of putting that will talk through kind of his how he starts that argument out today I would I would be surprised if we make it all the way through the introduction today I kind of have some we'll try and guide our way through his argument in this introduction But we're not even getting into like the the core of the book yet through this. Are you is it's gonna be a two-parter? It's gonna be like a four-parter if thing I don't know we'll see how far we get with this I'll be curious today where we land on this topic and then that will probably dictate how many episodes we actually spend on this book So this over the Christmas break I put together a list of probably like seven or eight books that I wanted to read and I ended up spending most of my time only on this one If you listen or you cannot hear this but Graham and Adrian looking at all the spots that I flagged inside this book There are numerous tabs fixed to that book and I mean I must be like a hundred things that like struck me as like important ideas that are worthy of discussing so they're all very Those are fluorescent. I like you tied that to rave.

I said you I did in fact that's the only way that I read books the other part of it is that each one of my little books of Tags of different colors so you can see as I ran out of one color it like goes into the other color That's beautiful right there. I listen or that was wonderful a visual commentary for a podcast I'm glad I could do that okay So I will get started with who who is writing this book the author's name is I said his name is Tracy Lee Simmons This is a bio poll from online I think it's from the Cersei Institute So thank you Cersei Tracy Lee Simmons is a writer and journalist who has written widely for the New York Times The Washington Post the New York Sun the weekly standard the new criterion crisis in the so I review along with other newspapers and magazines He served as associate editor for National Review under William F Buckley Jr And is the author of climbing for NASA's a best-selling case for classical education in America that won a choice award for Outstanding Academic Title in 2002 he was the recipient of the 2005 Idea Prize given by the Cersei Institute for Lifetime contribution to classical education Have you ever read any Buckley? I've not another by I jave you ever read any Buckley conservative writer no, yes, but I don't He's always on those lists of those issues. Yeah.

Yeah, just any sort of floating around the classical education world He's not himself a classical scholar, but he's always sort of on those lists anyway I'm just just from googling his books got an anecdote. Yale miles gone by. I don't Maybe just because of his work at National Review anyway for sure national review listeners if you have a favorite William F Buckley Work at the oops in them some of them are way that'd be really helpful for us to go through anyway That's that is his background grand. You got into this before I ask the question Thank you very much, but in hearing the title climbing pernasses two points right it is still negative a million But you said that pernasses a mountain, you know, you know, you think about this this mountain it's mountain in Greece This is good nailed it.

I mean he did that is in fact the location of this mountain. Do we know anything else about The mountain that they thought the gods lived on I don't know that's Olympus I know but maybe they were like, oh, it's probably it maybe they move like had moved They're the gods. I can't they just like I walk up to the top of pernasses like they're in here guys Vacation home mountain. I don't know.

Oh, is there like a maybe some sort of fancy temple on top of it It is near a famous temple is anyone want just in case we're doing one guess what temple it is very close to Well, okay, I don't know. Yeah, so it towers above Delphi so it is in that's a kind of central Greece if you're looking at a map and or if you have a great mental geography of Greece good on you so So soon you Delphi that's a point to it Do you age one of your works? I believe references it but only kind of impassing so this is me putting it on the spot Sorry about that. I believe Odysseus spends a little bit of time on pernasses he gets injured in the leg from hunting on pernasses Does this oh are we talking he hunts a couple of times?

But one of them is just a story he tells it's when he got his bore scar I think that might be it was our talking about book 19 of the Odyssey Odysseus recounts the story of how he was Gordon the thigh during a bore hunt. Yeah, yeah, yeah This is how he has everyone in his house identify him is actually Odysseus. It's me and I'd be like check out the scar They're like oh sweet pig scar. Yeah, that's cool And maybe more to the point is that how Parnassus is also thought to be the home of the muses So the muses come from Parnassus, so that's the significance of why he's referencing that in his title There's more to it those why it's climbing Parnassus and so he there's a centering image for this book that I think we'll start with And then we can go from there This is page 15 if you're falling along at home Mount Parnassus a limestone mass hovering over the ancient shrine of Delphi Has stood as a prime symbol of poetic inspiration and perfection since the dawn of the West It fixed anxious eyes on the heavens the Castilian spring being a sacred source of lysusaining water trickled far below the hush tones of ritual echoed from its slopes But over time it came to embody those things which man had his best wishes and ought to wish to achieve to it became a sign of his better divinely inspired self Decline Parnassus was to strive after the favor of Apollo in the nine muses in sconced up there forever unseen Well representing the unattainable for most pilgrims Parnassus also pointed to those treasures bestowed by the muses upon the faithful and diligent ones Who wait and work and among those gifts most sought was the civilizing cultivating boon of eloquence of right and beautiful expression Throughout the centuries to come this forbidding image that lifted from its geographical mythological settings We transposed in the wake of Renaissance humanism as an emblem of linguistic flair climbing Parnassus eventually became a code for the painfully glorious Exertions of Greek and Latin Greek and Latin so to becoming eloquent in terms of language Yes, but yes So that's kind of the what do you get from at the end of that climb but also it's a very tall mountain What he's getting at is the difficulty that's inherent in the argument that you'll be making throughout this book All right, so we're a bunch of Greek and Latin scholars correct so you're not sorry Well, yeah, how'd you guys you spend your summer?

I learned both that's kind of incredible. I have very little Latin and even less Greek. Hmm. I but AJ you you spent years and you're studying Yeah, so you're deeply uh-huh.

Yeah, I share the same level of Greek and Latin knowledge as AJ and Graham. So this is uncomfortable so Three people who have not studied Greek or Latin well, maybe if you take I took I took biblical no biblical Greek in college and then Latin on my own You know number of failed attempts although Duolingo has Latin now Yeah, they have Greek also, but it's not even Greek for what's worth But yeah, the Homeric and ancient Greek is different. It's like she's being in language. Yeah modern English.

There's ancient Greek There's coin a Greek which is then certain New Testament Greek and then there's modern Greek. Yeah, but okay So I'll Greek to me though Okay, so walk a walk But the three of us are with three of us working a classical school But don't have a background in Greek and Latin has that ever does that ever struck anyone? Does that yes? It's incredibly embarrassing It's one of these things where you realize that the basis of your language is in this we teach books that are translated from this and There's so much I don't know you we are fans of people who have read and are literate in Greek and Latin Lewis Sir the first one comes to mind and so they always speak about the joy that it is to be able to read something in the original language And we are doing everything translated so it's so feels a little hypocritical when kids are like we have to learn Latin And then we give them a high-minded reason for it and they say oh, so do you know any land?

It's like no, I don't I'm a teacher and I don't know land very well I'll bump up against the difficulties in translation if I'm trying to think okay What's the why did the other choose these words is there symbolism in these like specifically in the there's a chunk of the Odyssey where he sleeps under all of Bush and all the tones seems to be one of death, right? He he piles up a litter of dead leaves Well litter can also mean something to carry dead body on right? I don't it was the same in Greek and so I'm trying to pull symbolic meanings from the passage It's really easy for me to slip off the path and go astray because I just don't know what it was in the original and I can check Multiple translations but sometimes one is trying to maintain the rhyme and so they're way off the map It's like it's astounding how much the translation can change authors original intent, right? So that's kind of what I bump up against all the time and I really wish that I knew I could say okay This does have this kind of tone in the Greek You find that the translators normally set that out up front to say you know I'm focused on this this is my priority in this translation or Or not I guess either they say it or you just sort of know from tradition Oh, this this author is really trying to keep the rhythm and therefore is gonna Just take some pretty big discrepancies with the language isn't like Alexander Pope's translation of the Iliad in the Odyssey One that tries to maintain a cadence on the rhythm, but then is right?

I don't know there's there's all these different yeah So the Fegel is easily readable and more accessible and not necessarily meant to maintain the you know Hypoeticism of it and then yeah, it's all kinds of different stuff right now I'm looking for a translation of the secret history of the Mongols the Genghis Khan original text and man They are so different all of the different texts. Is this supposed to be Genghis Khan? Yeah, Genghis Khan. Is it?

I have so many questions. I have always said Genghis Khan. Is this not correct? It's not correct.

Thomas. Yeah, it's a story In the first name is no, no, no, I don't know Look forward to it next week listeners. Okay, there are yellow men that come from the sky on moon beams I'm not getting in the first time. I think if you get to the point where you're like, oh, I wonder if this translation really is faithful to the language You're gonna get all nerded up about translation usually by that point.

You're like, I should probably learn the language But if you're really gonna be passionate about translation at some point you're gonna say I'm all of my efforts are better served in learning the language Which you're saying is the point that you're at Graham and that you're at a joke that yeah, I mean Yes, but I mean I don't have this is my sort of freedom to like a freedom of time to really put into it That's part of my tension that we'll probably I don't know probably the end of this book talk about of both Coming around to an appreciation of the languages that I did not have before but also I'm in the same boat I don't know Latin. I don't know Greek. I signed up for the Duolingo Latin, but that feels Small in the face of like the largest of learning a new language So I don't maybe by the end of actually talking through this book Welcome to a different place. I'm like what it implies for us to have this appreciation So you learned how to say my brother is from California in Latin now, you know how to say that?

Does if you follow Duolingo, you will that's the other part that's I guess what I mean by saying it's like the smallness of it Why are we for you? But that's I've made the unfortunate choice of spending some time on the Latin subreddit like you know how do you actually get into this Latin thing and there's 3000 I mean or more as more than that even it's a very active community really yes, but all I say that people all have very strong opinions They all contradict each other, which is unlike well, but I don't really know what to do the internet That's that's I have to find the internet that's exactly right. Yeah, okay So we've started with this main image of what it is to learn these languages We've all said that we would appreciate you're on the 34,000 members currently on 19 online online. That's exactly yeah So we've also that we have this appreciation for it that it would be great for us to know it I'm wondering if you distinguish that so we're gonna You both teach English you both teach you know old books, which are For minor translated except for Surgling green night you can bury your yeah, but that's we do it in the old English or in the middle English Sorry, I'm in the English So for your work to you wouldn't necessarily need it for what you actually teach in class.

I don't have yet I don't have translations except for the surgling. Yeah, and even then it's you can kind of follow yeah That's um, this maybe makes me feel right at the audio book for surgling and the first half is translated and second half is not You can kind of get into it and just sounds like a I just slow it down to listen But but for a day your like your works are in fact translated Yes, mostly is it Greek because it's elia didn't odyssey I have to Greek the only one that's not translated Shakespeare Yeah, and then I have real old English and then I have Italian. Oh, oh Yeah, but then I wonder is that us as old people saying that we would like to know Latin Greek is there's some difference for the student Is it well a Age I imagine that you instead of taking them through the elia didn't odyssey in an English translation You were taking them through in the ancient Greek translation that they would like have the ability to go through that Would that be a different experience to go through with them? Do you think I think so?

If you thought about that before that would look different if you did it that way? Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm just missing so much right just the the poly tropos is used to describe Odysseus and then also used I think it's in Hebrews where they describe right and so there's that comparison of many many many's and so any Greek audience hearing poly tropos would think Immediately to Odysseus right so small things like that we missed that I could easily pull out for my students And I feel like it gives you a sense of the people right the way that they speak the way that their poems go Right you sort of learn who they are like you learn about the English of Shakespeare's time just by reading Shakespeare Hmm good and or we've around the school been talking a lot about Padaya have from a year's talk about Padaya Which is also an important theme in the Odyssey also brought in in Ephesians like they're all kinds of nuances you draw out by having the kind of closeness to the original language, but I guess what I'm trying to get at with all this is that we don't teach it that way right? You still you're trying to work and you still get something from it Right isn't it still a valuable experience the students go through to read the fagal translation of Iliad and Odyssey to read a modernized Canterbury Tales Maybe this is too big a question to start with but it would it be worth it for the students to learn enough of the language to Then go and be able to translate for themselves those original works in their original languages would it be worth it? Yeah, so again, I can only answer that men and women who I respect in their writing so Lewis Dorothy Sayers Chesterton, you know name your name your your greats All say how profitable and enjoyable enjoyable it is to be able to do that So I can only conclude that there would be some enjoyment of it actually I get a little taste of this so I bring a Latin New Testament to church And I try to follow along in the Latin New Testament when they're reading the reading for that Sunday And you get to the and I know enough Latin and of course There's so many English root words in Latin that you get to some root word and you realize you know, oh my word.

That's that's the root word is Translated this way, but the actual word is something different I think I wonder if I have an example of it because I write them down and oftentimes that adds a layer of Meaning to what you're what you're listening to so it's little things like that It is if you've heard things your entire life like an English Bible to be able to hear it in the Greek and Understand sort of if you have a good command of Greek and think about why Paul was writing in this way It can open it up and give different layers to your interpretation. See if I have an example I'll flip through here You don't keep talking while you're doing that. Yeah, go for it. So I'll take this back into the book.

So I found one sorry in Matthew 5 They're talking about the poor in spirit and I think the word in Latin is our root word for popper Pop-paraise spirit to and I just sort of struck me like the poor in spirit is like a spiritual beggar Like like a popper is somebody, you know in my mind you have this connotation of a man who's sitting at the side of the road Asking for something whereas when I hear poor in spirit the phrase maybe has become so I don't know tied up in other thoughts Or other sermons or whatnot but just to hear it in in what the Latin says and of course Latin is a translation from Greek Just to hear it. There's the idea of a beggar. What is a spiritual beggar? Anyway, that's just sort of an example right there And if I knew more about what that Latin root word is maybe that would be even richer So just thinking of you talking about the Latin translation that gets you closer to how the translators at that time were interpreting the Greek Yeah, which is even interesting from a historical perspective of like how did earlier people in the church interpret these different passages And then if you know the original languages you can everybody loves that person that says well actually in the original language And when you're at a party and you are doing that at a part everybody is like we are so appreciative that you are here to tell us this This is a no way annoying or condescending Actually keep those good dancers and the jugglers in the back room.

That's right. We got Do we have jugglers dancers? So I'm going to get at this from what the argument the book is like in laying the foundation of in this introduction He's still more setting defining his terms setting a stage that he'll then lay out an argument later in the book So I'll just I'll go into it part of what I'm trying to get out with this is that we are teaching the great works for teaching great books But there's maybe let so we talk about how great would be to teach Greek We've offered Greek as an elective, but it's not like a core of the program that we teach the high schoolers are required one year of Latin They can take three years to fill their form language requirement, but it's not like a requirement to list to Study Latin for three or four years. We've got Latin five now.

Don't we do for this year? We sometimes have offered Latin five when we have students for this year We have I think four students that are doing and they're doing Virgil. That sounds right. Yeah, which is awesome I mean, I love that.

I'm yeah, absolutely all about that and they are all wonderful. They are that's all of our students are all wonderful But also okay, so for getting at how Simmons is defining some of his terms So this is in the introduction just what is classical education? I was giving around once classical education pointed to an elite course of instruction based upon Greek and Latin the two great languages of the Classical world, but it also delved into the history philosophy literature and art of the Greek and Roman worlds affording over time to the more perspicacious devotees a remarkable or remarkably high degree of cultural understanding and understanding that endured and marked the learner for life Classical education was classical immersion today We use the term licentiously we apply classical or classical to anything we believe to be excellent and universal once I asked my field Study classic. Oh, I know well He was asking people what were classics to which my interlocutor responded Oh, you mean Dickens Melville and all that a response common and understandable now also the field of classics still signifying the old Meaning Greek and Latin so most of the intellectually inclined has been extended to embrace a study of the classical world innocent of the languages As since we readily recognize in university course catalogues as classical sieve and classical literature both customarily indicating often fine courses of reading in translation The chains have loosened I mean our intro was the classical world the enlightenment whatever we want But just literally oh we never did even this is not a this book is not a classical work I guess it is in defense of classical works But I wonder what you all think about that so his Setting of a definition is to point to the history of what that kind of what historically a classical I'm using air quotes listener Education means he points to an education founded upon Greek and Latin through which other subject are brought in but the focus is Greek and Latin Is he saying that it should be that way that we should tighten those chains a little bit or is he kind of okay with the free We have now the second.

Yeah, here. I trust Legion of whoever this is on the next page here I trust that the reader will allow me the use of the older definition of classical education as a curriculum grounded upon if not strictly limited to Greek Latin and the study of the civilization from which they arose So that's it so he will use as a definition of classical education for the remainder of this book that a course of study grounded upon Greek and Latin I mean it's an interesting thought experiment. It's kind of like yeah, you go on to I don't think there is a classical education Reddit but it's one of those things Some people like obviously us on this podcast we take a wider view and we're very much in this What do you want to call it modern classical education movement modern this really is a like Christian school reform movement in many ways Yes, classical education and so we're coming at it from that side of things, but then there's always You know the hardcore classicists that are like why are we doing medieval? You know like we should be just be just Latin and school should be completely limited to Greek and Latin and I don't really know how a School would look a school nowadays would look if you'd had it just be Greek and Latin if you would be able to a ever Be accredited for a child to go into a college Just your if you really had the type of Yeah, the type of education that he is advocating could you actually satisfy science requirements and satisfy math requirements?

I guess you would be teaching We'll get into that later. We would be teaching this subject differently opposed to you know in science if we're biology saying This is my oasis. This is my toesus here the here are the four steps and here's how it works. It starts to look more like a historical education of You're essentially telling the story of science which starts at a certain point There were discoveries those were debunked and then that was common knowledge for a long time And then that was debunked and you tell that story over time But tracing the history of biology or chemistry or physics or whatever but by his definition you'd have to stop at the Roman era To only be talking about Greek and Latin Latin is longer than the Roman era and for any civilizations the civilization Yeah, but for the use of language.

I mean Latin will be isn't so writing in Latin. Yeah I guess so he's letting the language define where his edges are or is it simply the Greek it seems like he wanted the Greek and Roman culture to be the Part of it's part of it. Not accessed for the purpose of learning the language. So that's that's that first quote from His looking down in classical seven-class literature without learning the language as well So you're on to something where he does care about the culture You're totally right but in the service of learning the language more deeply to the points of you're talking about of what those words meant in the society in the culture surrounding Like when the work was published we still modern things in Latin being reproduced like doesn't the pope whenever he says something controversial puts in Latin I'm wondering if how how this author would feel about say a modern work in Latin Like Harry Potter is that one?

Can I put or if it was originally written in Len? What'd he be okay with Harry Potter's stick it into the old curriculum? It's really is Latin simply the language that we're looking for is that his criteria or is it? Okay, I would guess no based on how he will people spend so this book is like 300 pages But it's only three chapters in one of those chapters is primarily a defense Okay, it's also funny because each later chapter is longer than the chapter before it seems like he like realizes I need to stop this book at some point But he's just cramming it all in anyway, it's very funny one of his chapters will be just a defense of classical works Which is a chapter we would just agree with it's like the whole point of podcast So we'd say yes, the works are good the question is the language of what are we missing by not reading the original language?

I guess I think we're missing playing by not reading the original language But I think it's this feels like chronological snobbery is is Latin any better than English? He will so It's Latin better than English. That's complicated. No, there are things that Latin focuses on that English does not by the end of this book Well, maybe I'm following myself.

Maybe we only do one episode I don't know the study of Latin will make for a better English speaker is argument I'm later and we can flash that out again in a later episode where I'm better prepared to make that argument I had this experience I did not learn Latin I did not learn Greek I learned Spanish in high school in those one high school and mostly what I learned about the form of Poetry came through Spanish that there's a certain distance given to learning a different language where you can define things because everything has to be taught explicitly for a foreign language That's not taught for a language that you raised with so there's something there's something to that of you will learn better English You'll learn better logic by learning different languages and lat it should be Latin or Greek because that's the foundation of our Which yeah, and that is gonna say learning Polish might be just as good. Sure. I mean This is a dirty sayers later. We talked about the law tools of learning She says the benefits you would get from Latin and Greek you can also get from Russian like that's her third option So so depending on the argument you make if the argument is only learning the language get you a certain skill your spot on that Other languages can accomplish that skill, but then that's the question of what is your reason for learning Latin or Greek?

Is it only the logic skills you get from Latin requires a certain type of precision get that from Russian or Polish or whatever Whatever would you get that I guess maybe there is something to be gained by studying the formal structure of language when you are Already a speaker of language when you're kid learning English like a little like a baby like Asher your child growing up learning English He is going to absorb it just through his babyness and through being immersed in it But there's something about the formal education of language when you already have a mother tongue that Helps you understand that there are different ways of communicating or understanding and framing reality, right? Like I remember when I was studying Greek for the first time the idea that nouns have endings and I remember thinking like well shoot my name is Graham But in Greek I would have my name change based on what was happening in the sentence I wonder what that does to somebody someone's identity someone's idea of name right because it might because now like Graham doesn't change I'm Graham in the past in the future that is my name I mean I don't have an ending But in Greek and in Latin you have a collection you have your name that changes and now it's changed And so even just the fact that that can happen to a proper name must have some sort of bearing on how you see and understand the world I don't know must saying it's a good bearing or bad bearing. I'm just saying that it's a different thing So to learn language and realize oh In French you've got Words that are either male or female we don't really have that in English or if we do it, you know, it doesn't really Change our sentence structure where it does in Latin it doesn't freak it doesn't French. I don't know if it doesn't Spanish or not So That kind of thing is helping it just seeing how a completely different structure Perceaves filters and understands and gives meaning to reality is I think a really beneficial thing doesn't have to be Latin gendered.

Yes, it doesn't have to be Latin it can be you know You can get this with Russian you get this with Polish but again with it being Greek and Latin that is the foundation of our language Then you you get this sort of family history even middle and old English have that same kind of thing the way they they view the world, right? Let's see how this talks about this how we the way we talk about objects and obeying the laws of nature Yes, we talk about laws and we kind of make everything around us following a District legal code right whereas the medieval's talked about the kindly inclining of things Right books fell because they were inclined to go home and now the floor is their home And that's what they wanted to go so everything is sort of inclined to do a thing Yeah, so the things rather I mean both are speaking of objects like citizens, right and ours is no more correct than theirs Right, it's just a different metaphor It's just a different metaphor and the metaphor of the medieval's makes everything have desires, right? Which is different than making everything obedient. I think that's a fun change my divisible We ever see like a change in that metaphor Like that come back to the English language.

I'm just wondering yeah, like that's a pretty big change to know That's medieval Latin or old English middle English to modern English I'm just wondering you know in 150 200 maybe even 500 years What is going to happen to the interweaving of the English language in terms of the metaphors that they use to talk about things? Well when we find out that it's all string theory and that there are 1300 dimensions Yeah, we could say things dimensionalize and wiggle to a certain thing right? It's gonna be it'll probably be something we don't feel fully under you know can't flam to dissipate my question My thing you three was theory was busted. Huh?

I don't know string theory was busted. I don't know really good scientists. I mean opine on that I'm wondering if is he add so I'm willing to allow him his definition of classical education that it's for the study of Greek and Latin for The purpose of conversation fine I'm unsure if he's advocating for this to be what education should be Greek Latin and the cultures that bore them When you say what education should be do you mean for everyone? Yeah?

Well, I mean even classical education is he advocating for just that as the education? No, I'm fences against the stuff that comes later. Is that what's happening or is he simply saying this is the term? I'm going this is another great point.

I'm the big yellow boss going to school get your Life in textbooks answer that one is no and then also I was just thinking this while you while we're talking I don't think this is an argument for Greek and Latin in favor of other languages and maybe I mean in the same way that I don't think an encouragement of studying great works is to say you should never read a modern work That the question is what is taught of what is taught to students? I think is the primary question in the same way that you can learn languages Outside of school. What's the right way to say this that there's this joke that I was again taught when I was in high school Spanish and the joke translated into English goes like this that if you speak five languages you're cultured If you speak three languages you're intelligent and if you speak one language you're American Thank you, but even by his recommendation you would be only at the three language point What am I saying? You can still learn Spanish French like pick your language that learn it easier?

Yes, and that too that it's almost like a base for than learning with other languages It's a question what you prioritize. Yeah, so it's not to say you shouldn't learn other things It's what is that sometimes we talk about pegs and filling in pegs like it's like what is the base? What is the foundation? What are the pegs that you said?

I think that's closer to what he's getting that just this is also kind of the ballpark of what you were Just asking about AJ this is The tireless pursuit the tireless study of classics has always been to put it bluntly an elite pursuit a privilege of a comparative view We should not skirt this fact classical education must not be patronizingly defended must not be sold for its democratizing traits the way some of our allies spearheading the great books have done these traits exist knowledge and Understanding and taste all serve splendidly the interests of democratic people, but they are accidental not essential classics serve no class So we should lean into our obviously aristocratic leanings. Yes. Yes I mean he there's a point earlier in the in the intro where he he's at an anthropology lecture in the the Lecturer makes a joke about how snooty Beethoven Smith is and the trace of the Simmons is like yeah It is Beethoven Smith is actually like better than other music like yeah, I am elitist and I'm okay with that Is he just saying that to be like? hashtag difficult hashtag like scandalous or do you think that he's does he have an argument behind that or is he just a snob like Is he no like he's arguing behind that?

Their society needs people who have been educated in something that is not practical. I don't know what he's trying to say Green when you gave your list of the people you respect who studied Greek and Latin those are not every men and everyone in those are like the Smartest of this like they are different. They are intelligent gifted people. I guess is what I'm getting at sure But Lewis and Chester 10 for example like Lewis was not an aristocrat he He's not arguing that one of us was covered with an inch of ash from his brother smoking.

That's just kind of fun Yeah, like he thought I could protect the carpet. Yeah, he thought it actually kept the carpet clean He's not saying that elitism is required to receive a classical education, but to say that a classical education is not for everyone That's what that's what he's setting up from the get-go This is the reason he says it is in opposition to Mortimer Adler that we've talked about I think the Pi day of proposal Adler has a series of three books on the Pi day of project and what Adler means by the Pi day of project is the bringing of great books into the public school class everybody from like you know the Vanderbilt children all the way down to the Farmer kids of America should have this this He's saying that's not that he is saying that is not his goal that and that and he is saying that that's not classical education That's what education is for the elite We can agree with that. I mean, that's why I'm throwing it out there Is he saying historically it is or we should keep it for the elite? I would probably say both I don't think he's saying keep it because Lewis is an example He was not really sounds like more of he's saying those who can make it through classical education are the elite Yes, or they become it they are shaped into they are shaped into these paragons of Civilization because of their study well, that's the case then we should hope that everyone gets checked by that Everybody can but that's I think I'm agreeing with both of you we should Shooting ourselves in the foot, but yeah, yeah, yes We should we should hope everyone is is capable of doing it But be that either lack of capacity or lack of motivation or lack of support for doing it for studying Greek and Latin So this is the golden blood test I guess to see but you never actually tested they've got blood right?

Oh, okay, they were like discovering these guys all he's got it if you have golden blood you're probably not long for this world Oh, yeah, it's not like a bond movie Oh Nobody killed the girl by painting her in gold that is an accurate statement Oh, yeah, thank you. That's our actual podcast so classical movies Are movies old enough to have classics in the way that we acknowledge them there's a criterion collection What does that mean means they have criterion for the So I am something that you are not or not on board with that part of it's Hmm. Um, I think you're famous the Podcast would be report for it. All right.

Let's say for sake of argument that society is served That it is a yeah society is served well if you have an elite is that is there an argument for that that? That is a good thing if you have now is that elite are those elite in charge or are they just these keepers of the heritage in there? They are you by the end of this book He is essentially using the founding of America as a defensive classical education that those who saw the problems in Europe and Came over to the states were classified to get it and and attribute like their actions to that their education It's a place we'll get to through a series of arguments that I'm short-circuiting so it might listen You might listen in because this is the aristocratic idea right like okay, we're we are going to and it's essentially an arbitrary thing Fence off a certain number of families house of lords people You know that it's a hereditary thing and we will pour all of our time effort and resources into training the progeny of those aristocrats to be the best human beings that we can train and We will then put those human beings in charge of society and society will be better at best served if we have the best of the best leading us That's essentially the aristocratic model and eventually that becomes an unpalatable model in Europe Yes, but the but it's sort of this it's ironic that he would make the claim America is founded essentially by these whether or not They themselves were aristocrats they had this aristocratic education Yes, and they come and they found a nation based on classical ideals of Republican representative government But now cannot reproduce the model of education wherein to how continue to produce men and women of virtuous character to keep the thing going He will say that that is reproduced for a few generations and then essentially lost in last hundred hundred fifty gotcha Yeah, but kind of seeds for that destruction or so in the in the founding itself But maybe let me just not put words in this method I'll continue with his argument the indisputable fact is that those of higher culture have perennial have perennially constituted those few at the top Who through their gifts and privileges have influenced disproportionately the larger society of which their members so he is making the argument These aren't just people who sit in libraries and guard the works like these are the people leaving front and center who he wants To be going through this education who is your founding father that wanted the reinstitution of the aristocracy Hamilton Hamilton want the aristocracy again? I don't know let's see remember I sat in on or I was reading it somewhere I can't remember but there's I mean I mean it was an open question at the beginning of the country It's like okay, how much of English society we're gonna make are we gonna have this sort of walled off aristocracy or not?

I guess they sort of came down to it with being landowners landowners were the only voters for a while was that true? Yes, yes, landing mails landing mails. I mean I guess that was kind of the But that line of argument is where we get like where I don't like it it's bad Let me I'll keep going with him still I believe that the size of this the small group of people as a proportion of the larger literate populace need not be Infant to small doesn't need to be a super small number people well initiates into classical learning have always been small in number that number was always too small too small Talent is no respecter of social status. No one with the requisite ability need to be left out Pronest is gonna be scaled by anyone with intelligence and curiosity who is also possess of a dog in this for details Gotcha, and that's that's more where we're going with it.

So the the aristocracy from like a bloodline perspective He's not arguing for that. That's wacko He but he is saying that you have to want this to get it gotcha in that Some level of like climbing and social standing comes from that dog in this he's talking about is that yeah? Those are the ones who will make it to have some type of broad influence Which hopefully they would be trained before maybe do you think the okay? Let's say so The dog it the determined those who want it go and follow and climb out Parnassus and receive this education Yes, is he saying at the end of it then they are going to be influencers of society at large?

Mmm, it's usually those are like people that are very fun. Sure for being total nerds for being like giant nerds Yeah, so he'll eventually draw distinction between classical education Which is a small number of people but a but more but broader as opposed to a classicist or like the formal academic studying of classics Gotcha for which he says no not no we don't need lots of people going into that That's not the requirement of necessity so it's somewhere Not everyone who gets a classical education automatically becomes a front and center political leader or something like that But we we talked about before that the pro-geminist moda like the the end of that series of training and speaking was a political Rederics like it's a speech of persuasion of a populist like the goal of politics or some sort of Public-facing activity is kind of somewhere there in the history of classical education I got a couple of thoughts. I feel like this could go wrong in two ways. Yeah, yeah Yeah, but here the here the two that I see the first is that he seems to mistake so I'm Sorry, I'm something over myself a mistake about how influence comes from aristocracy He says the people who end up being influencers are educated in this very specific way and I think that's not necessarily true It's not the education that makes the aristocracy the influencers that they are of culture and movement It's simply their status that they are aristocrats I think money and connection is far more likely to make you an influencer of culture and history than is a solid education The books how often do we see kings that were all about sport?

They want to play tennis more than they wanted to learn and they change the tide of history Yeah, right how often do we see men of action and not necessarily men of learning move the tide of countries? Yeah, I don't necessarily I have trouble making that connection and saying that yes classical learning makes for these big influencers When often classical learning shuts you in a closet and the people that are moving the world are tennis lovers No, no, but then all those kings have like they work like really worried tutors behind them saying like no you have to learn your Latin He's like haha. I'm going hunting and so I would need examples of yes, and that's the thing ha ha they neglected their Latin to go hunting Right, it was that serious of it. We would need examples on our side I have no examples that come really readily to mind of those who haven't taught well and we've used We've all that to give an example of no names like these are stereotypes We have of royalty before us, but I would need to come and bring those I don't have that I don't have this with me Well, I mean I would say look at our aristocracy.

There we go. It was influencing current culture Kanye Definitely not classically educated. Yeah, Bill Gates also not classically educated in Finnish college Yeah, I'm tenor crafts. Don't you guys and entertainers?

Yeah, and was it different then Shakespeare was an entertainer? Who knew Latin and Greek? Yeah, but still an entertainer Right just because he's an appalitian doesn't disqualify them from being a mover of culture Oh, no, I'm sorry I'm not saying politics is the only way to make that the type of change is that no I'm saying right? So the other the other possible screwy thing I see happening is if we accept this notion that to to succeed in classical education It's sort of like a filter for the weak ones and what we get at the end is the is the strong ones This seems like a really good way to mistake poor teaching for unmotivated or defective students Right if we say yeah, sure only the elite are gonna make it through then that allows us as teachers or us as a culture to say Yeah, he's just not motivated enough Well, not motivated enough isn't that a virtue problem that we should be able to help teach out of them It's our job to teach virtue if he's not virtuous.

That's on us. I don't agree with that Okay, well because I mean you can at the end that human beings have agency Yeah, absolutely and so at some point at some level we can only present an education it's up to the student to receive it I think you're right I'm just I'm not I'm I'm not even necessarily saying he's wrong that a classical education is a filter for the weak and only the The most determined students will make it through learning two languages and studying the old books But I am saying that if we accept that notion we are putting ourselves in danger of dismissing perfectly capable students when really what we have is poor teachers That's right. There's something I wonder though in that his focus is on the curriculum much more than on the method of teaching that There's something compelling in that like paradise lost is a great book whether Graham teaches it well or not And for someone to push through Graham's a great teacher But if you were a bad teacher to push through and still find the good in that book there is a virtue in that or Even a bad teacher of Latin is teaching you Latin I don't know but there's something that the student can get or benefit from if they have the dog in this that he's talking about the climb In the metaphor the mountain it would be a rocky patch of the mountain that it's hard to get over It's not super fun But still get you closer to the goal of what's on the top of the mountain and I don't know I don't know You guys certainly had stuff in school where you were motivated to get through it because you're teacher was terrible Didn't you where wasn't because my teacher was terrible? Yeah, I cared about grades so much that it was kind of a I wanted the I know matter who the teacher was I just didn't matter the teacher was for me personally Isn't but so you were motivated by something completely other than a hunger for the actual It was a pride thing.

Yeah, so what's complicated, but no I was motivated because the top ten percent of at the time is now eight or whatever for college schools If you apply to a public school in Texas and you're in the top ten percent at that time They had to accept you. Could you say selfish ambition then? Wasn't selfish. I want to go to college like I got your saying but it was not like I eventually came to love English because I was forced to pay really close attention to books because I wanted an A But my initial motivation was not I really love these books.

It was I want the A I agree with you My point is that if the students that get are getting through are not necessarily the elite right in that case if you are Pride happen to motivate you all the way through then it would be our prideful students or our ambitious ones could be which is not No, no virtuous. Yeah, this maybe gets into So when Graham did a review of something they will not forget I mean that might have to do with how do we test this knowledge is it in a way that a prideful? Do we do we test their virtue in a way that a prideful student could pass that test? Do we test their knowledge in a way that a Name your sin that a vicious student a student with my school could pass and hopefully not it is telling that we only have four students And our highest level Latin class that we offer.

I know it's just and I know them and knowing them they're not doing it because The one of the ambition right or they're like super jacked up about this Right, they're actually they've crossed over into some sort of love of the thing itself I think that's true even though you talk to them and they sort of have a gallows humor about Virgil And about translating deep down like when they're picking their courses They took that because there is something formative and enjoyable about that high level of doing something difficult in mind So we're trying to say audience is that if this is true that means you are the elite You're still here doggedly chasing just for the love of books. This is good Although we haven't been teaching Latin or Greek or but don't you want don't you want to learn? I agree and don't you want to learn that I mean, I'm so do I and why not because like that's where the money is and Because the idea of reading Thomas Aquinas and the original Latin sounds awesome. It sounds awesome now Well again having taken Spanish reading donkey Hote in the original language I remember being really excited doing to Spanish 5 and then about you know a page into it being like what have I done?

Like because it's actually really hard, but making it through the other side of that was actually really exciting Yeah, you don't like donkeys. I love them. They're great But in the same way that we're talking about the differences of like old old English middle English modern English There's an old Spanish and middle Spanish and yeah, and listener who we are compressing lots of what is Latin and Greek Grandmenship the differences of types of Greek there are also different types of Latin different rules that based on what you're following You know, so yeah, these are introductions This is all to say that future episodes hopefully will remember to say this but when he's talking about classical education Tracy Lucemens is talking about an education focused on the study of Greek and Latin gram to your question of Other schools that will credit that that's the requirement for a CCS schools Association of classical Christian schools that they teach for you I think it's I think there you have to teach four years of Latin I think four years of Greek also, but that split I think between the school of dialectic or logic and school of rhetoric So yes, there are schools that accredited and still do that Cool. Well, thanks Thomas.

Yeah, thank you. So that is the intro which is only like 30 pages of this 300 page book So I'm getting so cool. It's always a week crashing. Yeah, yeah, seriously So this has been a classical stuff You should know although if we really were classical stuff You should know we would have to only be talking about Greek and Latin so we probably I'm gonna come up with a better name or a different name for the podcast get rebranding that whole thing.

Yeah, thanks Um, but for the time being Mrs. Pink classical stuff you should know I was a coolest stuff. Yeah, yeah, you can email us at classical stuff at veritas academy.net You can find our episodes at classical stuff.net you can tweet at us at cool school stuff CLSCL stuff on the Twitter sphere. I will tweet back at you probably want We will either AJ or I will respond to your emails and Thomas will read them and then click the unread Yep, so that Thomas so that AJ and I will answer them, right?

And we thank you so much for listening to be back in the sound boys. Yeah, yeah, it's good And we will see you next time. This is Graham AJ and Thomas signing off