The locations of natural gas lines aren't always this obvious. Or this obvious. Or this obvious. They're definitely not this obvious.
Or even this obvious. Make the obvious choice. Visit Ontario1call.ca to find out where natural gas lines are. Even shallow digs carry real risk.
A message from Enbridge Gas. Hello, welcome to Retrospection. On this episode, we'll be putting on our dear stalkers and braving the foggy streets of Victorian London as we discuss Sherlock Holmes, the sign of four from 1986. My name's Paul.
And if you're a regular listener of Retrospection, then probably right about now, you wonder in word colliness. But don't worry, he's often a secret mission for shield. I know that I'm really excited. Hate to marvel.
But rest assured, you plucky listener, you're stuck with us. And I've got a very special guest here to lend her wisdom to the show. Welcome back. Chelsea.
So thank you for coming back. You're welcome. Yeah, nice to be back. Yeah, not too bad.
Not too bad. Not too bad getting over COVID and flus and all of this and that and the other. Yep, same. And just for our listeners, just to say that we meant to record this months ago and 3-1-3-1-3-1-0 and being ill and flus and COVID and work.
We just couldn't get it done, couldn't we? Nope, it's been a long time coming. Yeah, but we're here. We're here now.
And so we interviewed you what about two or three months ago? It was September time, I think. Yeah, so. It was the wrong one to work with you about September, yeah.
That's right. So thank you for being brave enough to come back. We appreciate that. Thanks, Paul.
We'll have to be back. And that episode where we interviewed Chelsea is still available to stream right now. And we should confess that there is an ulterior motive for why you wanted to come on this episode and talk about this particular Sherlock Holmes story, isn't there? That'll be come clear to everybody in a minute.
So this sign of thought was part of a long-running Sherlock Holmes TV series which ran on ITV in the 1980s and the 1990s. I didn't realise it stretched all the way into the 90s. I remember in the 80s. I'm not sure the actual idea that it ran to, but I know Jeremy Brett passed away not long after the finish filming it.
Yeah, yeah. Not long after the series ended. And it was a strange series because it wasn't, it was kind of like consistent feature length adaptations of classic Holmes stories, didn't it? They weren't like hour long episodes like a normal TV show.
They were like little mini movies, weren't they? Yeah, they did have some TV movies. I think a lot of them, the episodes would be about 40, 50 minutes, something like that. Yeah, and then they would put them together sometimes, as well, wouldn't they?
After they'd been on once, I think they put them together as like a 90 minute kind of moving. Yeah, they got a bit longer as the TV show. I think I could have been hard with John. I think the format sort of changed a little bit.
So IMDb tells us that the disappearance of a young woman's father, a mysterious note years later in a strange annual delivery of valuable pearls leads to Sherlock Holmes being put onto their case. Pretty accurate for IMDb these days. I'm not saying a word, I've got my issues in IMDb in my TV show. I'll keep quiet.
We don't use them anymore, Colin used this something else, but I couldn't remember what it was that he used, so I just went for IMDb. Basically, all the notes I have today have come literally from IMDb. I mean, if they're up then I'll hold my hand up and know I stand corrected, but I'm doing the best. That's more research than me and Colin do, so you're already winning there, so good on you.
I have reached out to a couple of cast members and stuff and they're just like Jenny Seagrove and she just said, I really can't remember a lot about it because it was so long ago. I suppose, jobing actors, they go from one job to another and I suppose once they've finished they just put it out of their mind and move on to the next thing I would imagine. Yeah. And this episode is signed up, it says here, it was 1987.
Oh, does it? So, I don't know if it's just wrong or because I... Let's say, let's say, 86, 87, who knows? What on the other?
It's close enough. It is, it is, yeah. Let's see. So, can you run through the cast for us?
I can. Let me just see. We've got Jeremy Brett obviously, and Sherlock Holmes. Edward Hardwick, Dr.
Watson, Robin Hunter, he's a character actor that isn't really... You know him, I think when you see him, let's see, Major Shonto and then we've got Ronald Lacy as the twins. Yeah. And he's got John Thor, quite an important role in the film, Jenny Seagrove as I mentioned before.
Those are kind of the main cast in this film. It's a pretty good cast, you've got to say, isn't it, for a TV thing? Yeah. Yeah, and it was literally like a TV movie, that's how it's listed.
We've got a wonderful character actor and stunked actor called Kiran Shah. He's in it as well. Let me see. Well, he's in the film, but not too much later on, so it's a bit of a surprise and it's really, really cool.
So this was the first episode filmed after Jeremy Brett began bi-pollinate treatment, is that right? Do you know I'm not sure it could be, yeah. I'm sure I read that somewhere. No, he was very ill with that, wasn't he?
He was, he was. But he pulls off Sherlock Holmes, probably one of the... Well, I was going to bring this up later in the episode about who your favourite Sherlock Holmes is, because there's been many. He's got to be up there as one of the best, I think.
Yeah, he's my favourite. He's my Sherlock. That's who I grew up watching. And you know, a lot of people grew up watching that Basil Rathbone, you know, and obviously the Joggy Generation obviously has been a big comeback.
I think everybody has their own Sherlock. We don't discuss Benedict Cumberbatch on this show. Colin has issues with Benedict Cumberbatch. I've got it off.
It's a very unique, sort of a unique take on Sherlock Holmes, isn't it? I met Jeremy Brett when I was a kid. I went with my mum to see him, it was live on stage. They have Sherlock Holmes, it was a story.
They did one of the adaptions. I met him and Edward Hardwick afterwards. I remember it clearly was anything. He was just so lovely.
They were both really, really lovely. I'll never forget it. It's really nice when you get to meet actors from something that you enjoy and turn out, not to be dicks, isn't it? That's always nice.
Yeah, he was the exact opposite of the dicks. I've been talking to people, I haven't even said, hello you. That kind of thing. I thought, oh God, I'm after Kelly.
I was about eight. Oh, wow. I've been Edward Hardwick for a while and he was chatting away to my mum. Yeah, it was great.
It was a good memories. So this was something that you watched originally on when you were a kid. I grew up watching the show. It's not really appropriate for a kid.
I remember the solitary cyclist was my favourite. I remember I liked that one because it wasn't scary. Oh, right. Okay.
Yeah. This one in particular, this sign of bar, I remember it distinctly and I watched it. It must have been on the television. I was young and I remember seeing the scene.
When it comes up on here, I'll say which scene is. It's an absolutely terrified bit and I never forgot it. I was a little bit traumatized. When we get there, you'll have to point it out.
I think I know what you're talking about. I think I can. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about?
Okay, I'll listen back for that then. I've got a little confession about this. While I've always been aware of this show, I don't think I've ever actually seen a single episode. So this is completely new for me.
Wow, really? I've seen bits and pieces here and there because obviously it was always on the TV when I was a kid. I think my parents watched it. But I never actually sat and watched a single episode when it originally heard.
This is the first time I've actually sat and watched a whole one. Wow, I mean they're all actually two now or actually four. I think they're all now. Yeah.
So I can get this one to do for the podcast. I actually, I found it on Britbox. They're all on Britbox. So it's a good thing.
I didn't just sit there and wait for ITV4 to cycle through until I got to this episode. I could be waiting forever. The problem is that they cut everything. Oh, did they?
Some through the day and there are some things in there that are just not suitable for a day time audience. I can imagine. Yeah, the elderly are the very young people just terrible. Not a good idea.
So I've got the DVD set of all of them. So I've just got that on. Fantastic. So you mentioned another actor in your line up there, Ronald Lacing?
Oh yes. I don't know much about him. Damn. Why are you here again?
Yeah, yeah. So just remind our listeners why you know so much about Ronald Lacing. Well, I don't know. I just, I became interested in his work.
You know, I watched him in readers and I thought, who is this little mountain in this horrible role in this really cool film? And I just started looking into his career and I started the Twitter account, Ronald Lacy accounts because there was nothing about him online. And he did so many interesting things. And it just kind of, it just escalated from there and I've ended up meeting and talking to so many people who knew Ronald or knew of him or worked with him or knew the family.
And yeah, it's just an interest. You know, he was such a wonderful actor. Yeah. It's such an interesting story that you tell about how you got into it all.
And if people want to hear that, then go back and listen to the interview. But the way that it's just snowballed for you and got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and you've raised his profile so much since you've been doing this. So that's why I intended to do and reached out to his daughter and I said, okay, that I'm kind of doing all this kind of delving into his life because there is nothing online about him accepting corrective information. It's all wrong.
You know, about, well, just I think it's all your interview that we did. And just everything about Ronald is just incorrect. And so we're hoping to kind of rectify that. And we did some fundraising and we've got him a memorial pew in the St Paul's Church in Covent Garden.
I'm really proud of that. And I still haven't seen it. I'm going at the end of March to London and pop. Are we going to get some nice pictures of you, have you sat on it and that you can put on it?
Yeah, I'm not going to rip it across. Rebecca's contacted me and she said when I'm in London, she said, you'll give her a bell and hopefully she can come too and we can kind of see it together. Oh, that would be amazing. That would be amazing.
Yeah, really good. Yeah, fantastic. So this isn't the first time that Ronald Lacey has been involved in Sherlock Holmes. He played Inspector Lestrad in the Baskervilles in 83?
Yeah, I think Ian Richardson wasn't it a Sherlock. And Brian Blasted was in that cast. I haven't seen that either. I reached out to Brian Blasted and you know, Citi could remember working with Ron and he told, it was through somebody I know knows him and he just basically said, I don't remember.
And I'm gussied because I would have loved and interviewed Brian Blasted. That would have been amazing. But unfortunately he doesn't remember actually working with him. That's a shame.
I can imagine if you got talking to Brian Blasted, he'd probably been your ever hours. Yes, he would. And I've seen him. I went to see him.
He was a Darwin on tour, you know, just and he would just come on stage and just talk. And it was the best three hours of my life. Yeah. He just went on and on.
Yeah. He was interested in it. Yeah, it was great. I can imagine.
Yeah. So I think it's on YouTube, the Ham of the Baskervilles with Ron. The other guys in it. Oh, what's his name?
Martin Shaw. He's in it as well. Yeah, it's not. It's a good one.
It's a good one. It's a good one. It's a good one. It's a good one.
It's a good one. Yeah. I'd love to check that one out as well then. So let's get on with the show.
So the first thing that struck me is this amazing Gothic music score from Patrick Goers. It's very hammer-esque I thought. Yeah. I've never seen this 1982 BBC version of Woman in Black.
I have it. I have it on Blu-ray. It's fantastic. One with Ian Richardson and Jenny Seabro.
Really, really good. Yes. And over the top of this opening shot of this Gothic looking castle that we get at the beginning of this episode. Yeah.
I was already in. I was already in from this opening shot. Yeah. There's a real sense of dread coming.
Isn't there as we see these sort of... It's a very dark thing and you've got the sort of shadows of people walking towards the castle. Yeah, the people hobbling their way to it and they take out the servant as he's watching over the dead body. Yeah.
And you sort of wonder in what is happening here? Yeah, yeah. I love a mystery and this just grabbed me. You think I'd watch more Sherlock Holmes really, wouldn't you?
Yeah. And when you first actually got sort of like the body in the casket kind of thing and you sort of thinking what's going on? Yeah. So there's a piece of paper.
We're in a special mark and the phrase the sign of four and it gets left on the body. And then we cut to Miss Morston, played by J.C. Grove, and she goes to see Sherlock Holmes and his flat. And we see Holmes berating Watson for his adaptations of all his cases.
Now it always amazes me that Sherlock Holmes became such a popular character because there's a character. He's not very likable is he? I was just going to say he's very bad tempos. He is, yeah.
He's very rude. He's very rude. But he got the job done, didn't he? And he's basically when the police couldn't solve it or they're confused.
He did. But he used his own methods. You know, he's not somebody that you want to spend your Friday nights with though, is he? Well, Watson seems to.
Oh, he loves him. Yeah. But he's kind of like this in every adaptation of Sherlock Holmes. He's always a little bit prickly, isn't he?
Yeah. So if he's got his mind is on other things. So he hasn't got time to be nice to people. He's trying to solve miseries.
So Jenny Seagro, she was born in 1957 in Kuala Lumpur. Oh, right. I didn't know that. Well, that's what I found out.
She came to England. She was nine. She was one of those actresses that used to see pop up all the time, didn't you? Especially in the 80s.
Yeah. Yeah. And she's partnered with Bill Kenwright, isn't she? Oh, right.
Okay. Yeah. The honor of Everton, is it? Oh, yeah.
Of course. Yeah. I didn't know that. And he said, yeah, they used to produce her.
I know that they went on who wants to be a millionaire. Did they really? Did they win? They did.
I was a couple. Yeah. I don't know if it actually happened. Yeah.
Yeah, they did. Well, maybe Everton need the money. That's why he went on there. I've got.
Yeah. The huge opportunity to build Kenwright is the chairman of Everton FC. That's it. Oh, well.
I've got friends around it and supporters. I've never told me that. Yeah. Yeah.
She's really nice. She's on Twitter. She follows me and stuff and I follow her. Like I said, I did reach out to her and she just said she couldn't remember.
She remembers Ronald's face being very nice. He was really nice, but she doesn't really remember what happened. She was very young and it was quite, you know, it was a long time ago. Well, like you said before, when we talked last time, I don't think I've never read a single bad thing about Ronald.
He said anything bad about the guy. He just seems like a lovely guy. Yeah. He was.
Yeah. Everything that I've learned about Ron has always been positive. So Holmes is really intolerant with Miss Morston. She starts outlining all the problems to him.
I really like the set design of Sherlock Holmes is flat. He's cluttered. There's books everywhere. There's a scientific equipment.
And the attention to period details spectacular in this. Yeah. It was a very, very well made series. Oh, it shows everything's there on the screen, isn't it?
You can see that. And Jeremy Brett had a lot to do with that. Oh, really? Yeah, he wanted it to be authentic.
He wanted it to be real. You know, I've read a couple of books about him and things about him and he was very particular about how it was filmed. He could kind of tell the way that he portrayed Holmes, that it is so authentic to the books and the illustrations. I mean, it really is to me.
Jeremy Brett is like the illustrations that comes to life. Yeah. He apparently learned that Sherlock Holmes was very popular with children. And they saw Holmes as like a superhero.
And he was troubled by the fact that Holmes, he used cocaine. So in response, Jeremy sought an obtained permission from Arthur Conan Doyle's daughter to have Holmes overcome and abandoned his addiction. Wow. And it was signified with Holmes very in his syringe in the episode that Devil's Fought.
I've never seen an episode ever, a vague memory of that, to make a call at that. Yeah, maybe too. Yeah. It was a later episode.
It's very unusual for an actor to have such clout to be able to do that, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think when you've got children watching, you've got that kind of an audience and he really wanted to have just make a point.
You know. I wonder why it was so popular with children, the character. I remember, I watched it. I watched it because my mum, Nancy Jeremy Brett, and that's what she did.
That's what she did. Well, it was so good. She loved it as well. She didn't have a crush on Jeremy Brett, but they're just so well done.
Yeah. And like I said, it did scare me. There were a couple of episodes that frightened me. I didn't watch them, but there was something I absolutely loved.
You talk about the detail, as you were saying. It is such, such great detail that, especially in the outdoor scenes as well. It's probably sounds really strange, but you can almost smell the environment. It's so vivid and real.
Victorian, the tour you've done. Yeah. I mean, the Bernardo Studios tour. Did you ever do that?
I did in the day. Yes, I did. Yeah. I think there was still filming it when I first used to go on the tour.
And my mum, going back to my mum again, she worked at Bernardo Studios when it first opened. Oh, wow. Yeah. She used to just, she was like taking the money.
She was working on the ticket desk, but yeah, she worked there for quite a while and she was absolutely fascinated just to see everything. Yeah. Oh, you never ever saw Jeremy Brett? I missed the days when we had Bernardo Studios.
That was great. That was great. And living in Wigan, it was just down the road, really. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It was just down the road, really. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do remember a lot of wind people are in stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. We were there. Well, we wouldn't have been there at the same time. I think I'm a little bit older than you.
Yeah. A lot older than you. No. Yeah.
So I'll talk about Jeremy Brett. He played Dr. Watson. There was a Los Angeles production of The Crucible Lord, and it was a stage play based on the sign of Ford.
And it saw a Charlton Hesten as Sherlock Holmes. And Jeremy Brett played Dr. Watson. That was in 1980.
I think I'm a vague memory of Charlton Heston playing short comes in like a TV movie as well. So maybe I can't imagine that. But yeah. Yeah, okay.
It is a bit weird. Is it? Yeah. Anyway.
Yeah. So okay. Yeah. Sherlock Holmes carrying a big rifle.
Yeah. I was going to be like, you know, yeah, yeah. I'll just think I hope he wasn't worried he's cost you from planning the eggs while he was doing it and he's running around and So this Boston tells homes that her father has been missing for some years now And Jeremy Brown such a look of disinterest as she's going on and on about it Like this is all completely beneath them at that point isn't it? And even starts to complain about the state of the flat and he starts brushing down his trousers absolutely He doesn't because he's just not interested at all.
It's a great performance What his interest is peaked when she tells him of a note and the donation of pearls every year at the same date Yep, and the note tells her to meet someone at the Lyceum Theatre and home says that he and Watson are gonna go in a company Yeah, she needs to like some like chaperone to go with it. I think those two would be a good a good bet Oh, yeah, I just got up to the point I'm just running on here and Watson's sort of finally waving out the window to her It's not it's not apparently this adaption but in the books is when he that's his wife Mary Morton He actually marries her. Oh well, I was gonna say that there's obviously an attraction the way that they play it the two the two actors Isn't that? Yeah, so they downplay it in this adoption and he doesn't marry Mary Morrison in this series It did make me chuckle how Holmes just refers to to clients as units.
There's units to him Absolutely, so Holmes goes to the library to do some research and he comes to the conclusion that this case is a simple one and loads of gun and they set off him and Watson I love the little character touch of Watson testing the way it is came before leaving in case he needs to use it I would imagine for something other than walking. Yeah Yeah, it's just a little thing that he does. It's obviously an acting choice I would imagine it probably wasn't even scripted, but it's just a nice little thing I like little the acting choices like that just add weight and a little bit of believability to the part, you know Well, I'm sure he's had to do it before yeah So they meet Miss Morston and they head for the lysium along the way She gives him a paper upon which a map has been drawn with the sign of four on it And Holmes admits that the case may be a little bit more complicated than he first thought So I can't do nothing a little bit more now, isn't it? It is a little bit.
Yeah, so they get to the lysium And we get a nice little turn from Derek deadman as Williams. That was a surprise. Yes Mm-hmm I didn't even know his name until I looked into the cast of this but I knew his face from many many things Yeah, he was one of those British actors that used to pop up on film and television all the time. Yeah, I think he was in time bandits Brazil He was yeah Yeah He will he will pop up That's what I love when we go back on the podcast and we look at old stuff from from the 70s and the 80s And then you spot these little actors that you just see all the time popping up in these particularly in British movies and British TV It was like there was a little circle of actors that always used to be used in these things I mean, I mean, wrong was one of them.
Yes You know they have that game you can play like 60 locations of natural gas lines aren't always this obvious Or this obvious Or this obvious Definitely not this obvious or even this obvious Make the obvious choice visit Ontario one call.ca to find out where natural gas lines are even shallow digs scary real risk a message from Enbridge gas Yeah So Williams wants to make sure that none of them are police before they jump into his coach and take some to the Ronda vu and Would you like to take the next bit Chelsea? quite you know, sort of like a dismal just like an ordinary apartment on the outside But then when you get inside and the door is open It's actually elaborately decorated with all kinds of like Indian ornaments and you know carpets and it's just beautiful I think it's absolutely beautiful and Ron's performance. It's startling when you first see him because he's so odd. He's very odd, isn't he?
Well, no, this character is just so it's just such a Shobony first thing you think what the hell is this? I think these kind of parts nobody played these kind of parts like quite like he did, did they? He this guy turned out to be quite a nice character, but it's unsettling. He did unsettling very well.
Oh absolutely Absolutely, I suppose my I mentioned this before my earliest memory of him was probably razor lost arc Well before that I probably seen him in porridge and then not put two and two together and that character in razor lost arc Stays with you as a kid doesn't it just because he's so unsettling? Yeah? Everybody remembers the co-anger don't I? He's literally you know sat with his hooker and he's smoking away I mean it's just you just don't know what to expect And it turns out that he was the one sending the pearls to Miss Monster.
That's right Thaddeus explains that they need to discuss how to proceed with his brother but I follow you also played by Ronald Lacey Yeah, and we get a little bit of a flashback to Thaddeus's father who was the corpse in the opening moments of the film And that was Robin Hunter. Yeah, he was in a lot of like musical comedy and musicals and He wrote scripts for music. Oh, that's well He was married to a hand of Harry. Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah They remember she was saying in an interview I read once that she went to his funeral They were always very close and I believe they separated in the 80s and they never divorced. Oh, right? Yeah, he also married he was also married to Maria Charles and she was in Hot Fills. Wow This is Reaper and he was married to her of course.
Yeah, yeah, wow So it seems that Thaddeus and Batholm used dad a bit of a phobia for wooden legs That's right, that's right. Yeah, and he received a letter that gave him a terrible shock and we get a nice We get a nice little shot of Ron playing both Thaddeus and Batholm you together, don't we? And because he plays the two the two characters so differently as well, you completely buy it sells it so well You don't know It was just incredibly well done But he's still such a large part of this. Yeah, it's great.
So memorable So as you say the father's on his deathbed in the flashback and he makes confession about treasure plundered from India and how How Miss Moston's father visited him and then when they confronted each other it resulted in Moston's death Which was then covered up Thaddeus goes on to explain the only step better He's further intended for a sure of the treasure to go to Moston's daughter And he makes his son's promise to make sure that she gets it But then a hideous face appears at the window and it causes the father to die in fright And they never find out who that is. You know, they don't think Yeah, yeah, there's no pay after that isn't it? Yeah, wow. As well as like when Thaddeus is telling Miss Moston how her father died, it was quite blunt Yes, you know, and you know, she obviously you know, Dr.
Watson swoops in and tries to rescue her You know, have a drink of water and then she just sort of says, you know, I want to hear the story Just let me hear it, you know, I know about my father now he's dead and yeah Sad scene really Thaddeus believes that secret agencies are plotting against them And he shows home to the piece of paper that was left on his father's corpse with the sign of four on it And then he explains that neither he or his brother could ever locate the treasure And that by following you kept the pearls that he's further meant to give to Miss Moston And this is where the pearls that she received every year have come from But then Thaddeus explains that just yesterday in his brother found the treasure And that's why he contacted her and that no, they need to go and claim their shirt Yeah, from the brother Who doesn't want to give it up? That's right And popping on a fantastic hat that Thaddeus leads them out I believe it's meant to be rabbit fur, that's what was in the book He's amazing He's a valid true Denarian Yeah, he's very conscientious about his health It's probably this whole bit is probably the best the best couple of scenes in the episode I think it's he's kind of creepy but lovable at the same time I find him very lovable I'm sure you do I'm sure you do I don't absolutely adorable I mean, yeah, I mean, oh they just arrived at the house the big sort of creepy castle I mean, it's just dreadful, isn't it? Look at it You know, he's telling homes about where they found the treasure And about half a million pound sterling post it That's right, yeah And you say it looks like a bum site, doesn't it? It just just holes everywhere They've been digging, I think they've been digging trying to find this treasure And I find it quite comical, you know, he's telling Sherlock Holmes where the treasure is And you hear this vod awful scream from the housekeeper And he, you know, Miss Morrison and Watson are in the cab, you know, they're still in the cab So it's that, they're looking around and And then they sort of kind of calls up to them and says, wait here And then just runs back off against the house And it's just to me, it's just so funny A little bit of comic timing there just makes me laugh Yeah, then they go in and there's the housekeeper in an absolute state of distress Yeah, and they find back on you He's dead He is He is And he's completely frozen in place I think another good thing about Ron's performance in all of this This last sort of 10, 15 minutes of this is that He's very exposition heavy, but he never makes it feel like a chore Because he's doing such interesting things with it, you know, he's...
Yeah, make them look effortless, doesn't he? He does, he does I've got to say as well that bum site of a place that they go to I'm sure I've been to places like that and we can back in the day You know My app actually looks like the foot outside of our house in December Because we had a gas leak on our street Oh wow! And literally took up the whole street in front of our house And it looked exactly like that except our house is smaller You should have popped on one of those hats and got outside Yeah, with a weighted K in Yeah, recreate it Yeah, I thought I'd do it Mind you, did he keep a snake from the gas and he looked at the leak and it was all fine and we would say And he still is, so that's amazing, yeah Yeah, so this is the scene, I've actually got it I'm up now, so they look through the keyhole It was the keyhole scene and they find Bartholomew's corpse Frozen in that awful state, you know, with his hands and he's got that awful, like, grin on his face It's just dreadful, and that was as a child I would never ever forgot watching that That seared into your mind, was it? He stayed with me and when I was looking into him on his career and I read that he was in a granada poems and I thought, oh, what was that?
So it was the sign of thought and I was like, oh, which one is that and I googled it? Like, you know, we've got big googled images and I just went, oh no, that's not him You know, the one that frightened me so much of the child is actually him Yeah, I can imagine, I mean, it's quite a shocking reveal, isn't it? When you see him Oh, it was, it was really creepy Yeah, and so like, they go in his room there and there's a big hole in the ceiling Just everywhere, and one thing I noticed about Bartholomew is that we were talking about this His fingernails, not what is going on with his fingernails, they're quite long It's like he's covered in soil Yeah, I suppose he's been digging in? I don't know, I think he's got some kind of awful science experiment with his nails He's just so creepy, he's going off with this guy So, but he's dead and he's been poisoned and they've left the sign of thought on the table next to him It did kind of amusing when Watson asks what it means and Holmes replies, it means murder I mean, there's a dead bollular, I mean, you know, he needs murder They get back to the south, go out, go and get the police shut the door and then they can do some proper sleuthing Yeah, Ron does a really good bit before as well, where he's panicking at the police, they're going to assume that he's killed his brother and he's really panicking Yeah, he's a bit of a meltdown, that's right It's a good little performance now So, you say Holmes investigates the room and he believes that he's very close at this point to solving the case And this is another great scene watching Holmes putting all the clues together about the wooden legman and his accomplice He really is the smartest person in that room, isn't he?
He's only three of them, one of them is dead That's what I'm saying, yeah He's got sort of like, when you're talking at all the clues, like a little, it's like a little, they think it's a child's footprint Yeah, and it's like, one of them obviously has a couple of wooden legs Yeah, yeah, so we're starting to realise what's going on, but I think Sherlock Holmes has already pretty much solved the whole case by now You always get that impression, don't you, in any Sherlock Holmes thing, that he's kind of sussed it out in the first sort of 25 minutes And then you just, he's like, it's like Colombo, I think Colombo did that And then Colombo would always like solve it in about 20 minutes and sort of drive the whole thing out as he sort of like, you know, interrogated people and stuff It's like he actually knows who's done it Yeah That's the part I find with Colombo From that first time he meets the guest earlier, he knows that that's the killer, doesn't he? Yeah, I mean, he's probably, he's like, it's always the guest, like, we know who's done it And he's already been putting the whole together and makes a really good episode, I love Colombo Oh, so do I Yeah, we have to cover Colombo on Retrospection at some point Because the shame wrong wasn't in Colombo, I mean he was in Magnet T.I, he was in Heart to Heart and wasn't in Colombo, which is the shame So yeah, he would have been good in that So as you said, they believed that a child was involved and the exam in Bath Hall, he's frozen corpse Then the police arrive and the atmosphere between the Inspector and Holmes appears light and jovial, but there's an undercurrent of disapproval from Inspector, isn't there? They've met before, haven't they? Yeah And he thinks Holmes is sort of, if theory is just ridiculous Yeah, because he believes that Thaddeus was involved in it all, doesn't he?
That's just what they assumed, Thaddeus did it, he's got all that he's got the darts, that sort of thing that killed him You know, that killed by Follum, he had Thaddeus with his hands on the dart, he's got all the Indian artifacts and stuff, he knows about that kind of thing, so obviously it was him, because he wants the treasure And I've got to say, as someone coming at this fresh, I was waiting for a big payoff at the end and he turned out that Thaddeus wasn't really the kind of person that wrong was playing I was waiting for a kind of like a twist at the end and then maybe he did do it after all, even though Sure Holmes, you know, I was thinking too deep In problem they said he did it, yeah He's the bad guy, he usually turns out that he's some sort of con man or a mooder who, yeah There probably was a little bit of that running through my mind, yeah, I think that's where it was coming from, yeah Huskers was, you know, he sort of was a bad guy, with my father, he wasn't eating, he wanted the treasure, he didn't want to give it to anybody and that's sort of how he ended up, you know, lots of his room dead Very dead Yeah, frozen Yeah, frozen But the Inspector places Thaddeus under arrest and tells, and Holmes tells him about his theory about the wooden legged man and his curious accomplice Meanwhile Watson goes to a rough part of time and again, I'm sure I've walked through places like this back home, back in Wigan, looks very familiar to me Looking for a Mr Toby who is reluctant to give him the time of day until he tells him that he was sent by Holmes, so Holmes has got respect in this part of He does have respect, there's a lot of down and out who love Holmes and he gives them respect and he has some trusted people out there in St. London who he goes to Yeah, like the children, the irregulars there Yeah, that's a thing isn't it? That is a thing in the books isn't it? Yeah, and he, I don't like that about Holmes, you know, because he seems to, like I say, like he's got these people that he can always turn inside information throughout and about in London who see things that he can't always see They're his eyes And there's a bit of a sense as well that even though he's he's up a class, he's kind of, he stands up for the little guy as well a little bit sometimes, doesn't he?
He's more of an anti-establishment character isn't he? I find yeah, very much so, yeah So this Toby seems to keep a collection of animals, pigs, monkeys, snakes But it turns out that this, this agreeable geyser isn't actually Toby, Toby turns out to be a dog Yeah, dog is a dog And Watson takes Toby the dog to the house and Holmes is up on the rooftops And he shimmies down the drain pipe to greet them No, I do believe Jeremy Brett did that still himself He did kind of look like him, he didn't, you could see it was him I think he did, I read that somewhere unless I'm completely wrong and if I am, you know, please tell me but I think that he did that himself He seems like a physical kind of actor doesn't he? Yes, yeah, I mean he was into archery and all kinds of physical stuff Yeah, yeah, I think that was really him on the roof And he's trying to pack a poison darts in the guttering And they set off on a hunt with Toby leading the way Well that's handy, he's actually found the murder weapon It is, it is, and there's some great use of location shooting as he runs around the docks isn't there? Again, it really sells it because there's lots of places that still look Victorian, particularly in the 80s isn't there?
I would imagine It honestly just looks so authentic, it's so well done This is where I said before that you can almost smell it, it looks so real and authentic Yeah, the costume design and everything, yeah, brilliant So Toby leads them to some barrels of creosote and then to the water And Holmes believes that the perpetrators of a skatev were here a boat, Holmes questions a woman on the docks about the two men And the boat that they used is called the Aurora Even the big parts in this by the way, they feel like really real people, don't they? Real rounded characters Yeah, and I love how he kind of tricks her into giving the information Yeah, yeah, because again he's the smartest person on the block isn't he? In the full thing? Yeah He kind of keeps her into it, you know, he gets the information out of it Yeah, really goes, yeah Even though we talked about his performance, Jeremy Brett And I was thinking about other people that have played Sherlock Holmes in particular Benedict Cumberbatch Even though he's a bropped and he's kind of rude, Jeremy Brett a lot of the time I never get the sense, I also got the sense with Cumberbatch's performance He was kind of nasty, not telling with people and I don't get that with Jeremy Brett A bit more of a softness with Jeremy Brett Yeah, yeah It could be a generation thing as well Could be I don't know, just sort of the way Jeremy approached the character of Holmes Perhaps a little bit softer, I always found some humour in there Absolutely Yeah, so later back at his flat, Holmes and Watson were amused by a story in the papers about how the police are expertly handling the case When a group of scruffy kids arrive, these are the irregulars that you mentioned Yep And as you said, they were his basically eyes and ears on the street And I suppose child labour was a thing back in Victoria time, right?
This is all fine, for the times, isn't it? It's all fine, it's all fine, it's all fine He gave him a lot of money, didn't he? Yeah Points and stuff to go and find information, they loved it Absolutely It's a lot better than being in the workhouse, isn't it? Oh, he's a pro- But it's better than being up there, you know, pushed up shimps Oh, jimneys, yeah And then going down in mines and things Yeah, definitely, definitely So he sets them off on a mission to find the Aurora, the boat And then Holmes reads a load about small tribal cannibals And he has a bit of a fiddle, I think though, how else to write that, so I'll just Yeah, he's a bit of a wusser, what is that?
Yeah So he's fiddling away He's fiddling away And he, I like the little relationship between Mrs. Hudson and Holmes, by the way The way that they just show to each other when he wants his tea or his lunch She's always having a hysterics Absolutely, absolutely Yeah, she's a wonderful actress Oh, it's brilliant, brilliant performance Yeah We've got to be regulars and they're searching the docks and the ships And finally they come across it, they're Aurora Yeah So later on we see Holmes investigating the docks in disguise as an old man It actually took me a second to realise that that was Jerry Brett from He was coming in the house, I thought what's going on? And then it's like, oh, of course it's Holmes Of course it is Well, I'm glad that it wasn't just me, because I felt really stupid No, he fooled me as well and I thought, you know, she had nobody now that he did things like that But no, good news, well Yeah, these disguises were a major part of the book, to me In disguise in some shape or another, wasn't he? Yeah So the inspector goes to see Holmes that he's flat, but he's still out And we get a wonderful moment when Holmes, still in his disguise, turns up And he feels not just the inspector, but Watson as well You think Watson would be onto this by now, wouldn't you?
Yeah, but yeah, like what I was saying, you know, you seem to do it that many times And you just think, yeah, but no, he's all him Yeah, yeah, it's brilliant performance So together with the inspector and some officers, they take a boat over to the Aurora And they partner nearby and they just watch it, they stake it out Finally, the Aurora makes its move, Holmes and Company give chase Now this boat chase isn't the most action-packed thing But it drips atmosphere, and especially when you combine it with the music It's got a real sense of tension to it, I think, and especially when that miss kicks in As well, it's very cinematic When I looked at red reviews on this and things like that, a lot of people say it was just a little bit too long I can see that A little bit too long, and then at the end when, you know, they kind of, they get the go Well, I'll discuss that when we get up to that part, but again, it just kind of goes on That's the only fault in this, if he quokes a fine one, because it really is one of the best ones they ever did in the whole series Yeah Yeah, but I suppose they're trying to get that hour and a half or whatever, right? They're sort of trying to get that running time up, yeah I can see why a lot of people would think it was too long, but personally, I thought, I kind of like the way it looked, so it kept me interested But I can see why it, perhaps if I watched it again a second time, I'd maybe speed it up a little bit through this bit, I can imagine I love Jeremy sort of standing at the front of the boat as well In the back, sort of hiding from danger, he's still in the front Oh, he's leading from the front, isn't he? Exactly, yeah, he's stood up there and he wants to see, you know, where they're going It's just really, really well filmed Definitely So, how was watching the people on the boat through a telescope, and he sees the wooden-legged man struggling, it's really hard to say that, wouldn't legged man struggling, yeah, I do better than me, struggling with a small companion, yeah, and he finds a dart home, which luckily just hits his scarf Yeah, many jump out of this You don't see many darts being shot at people, he's quite an interesting thing, isn't he? Oh, I'm a little drunk, I did a little jump, I thought, what would he say about his socks?
He was, no, the wooden-legged man knocks out the boat pilot and continues to try to escape and he snags from the boat and he crawls up onto a mudding bank and he collapses exhausted And John Thor is this guy and he's literally covered in crap, isn't he? He crawls out of that boat, yeah Yep, and all the- and Holmes tried his gun He did, he did? He shot the companion, so as you say they capture them, oh the man, and the man's name is Small, and as you say they question him, put small denies killing buffalo on you And he's got a box with him, but he tells him that he's throwing the key into the river Yeah So back at Baker Street, they bring Small in the treasure box before Mrs. Morston And Small tells his story about losing his leg to a crocodile in his shoes, no, this whole bit, I'll be honest with you now, this is where I kind of check that out for a minute, I thought this bit was a little bit dull but- I think that's kind of where they're kind of going with it, just went on a little bit Yeah Yeah But he talks about losing his leg to a crocodile and he goes on about the rest of his backstory about doing a deal with three men regarding the treasure, there's a murder and some of the treasure was hidden and that was probably the extent of what I got from that because- I don't know, I find it a little bit hard to follow this bit, maybe my interest was dipping because as you say it kind of slows everything down in this bit I think Well, they've got him, do you know what I mean?
The climax has already happened, then you've got to kind of go, oh, there's more, oh okay Yeah It would have been kind of nice to maybe learn a bit more about the character before they got it I think so It was just my take on that Should have been the more at the front I enjoyed John Paul's taking his leg off, that was going to be cool So I'm on the screwing, you know, you don't see that every day He didn't even find it, like treasure or something but no Oh that would be amazing, that would have been a great, nice little touch Yeah Here's the key, but no Yeah So these men were caught and they were sent for penal colony until Mrs. Morston's father turned up, he had pity on Small and he treated him well, so Small made an arrangement with Morston's father and Fabius's father, father, father, father Father, too many F Yeah, father, father, yeah Freedom for a show of the hidden treasure and it turns out that Fabius's dad went and got the treasure for himself So Small and sworn vengeance I'm right of that, Anna He took him a long time though, he got there He got there in the years and years later, he gave the video, yeah He kind of does it in a really long-winded way because he gets a triasement that he's nursed back to health And then he and Small escaped the penal colony and made their way back to England I mean this guy's playing a long game, isn't he? I mean that level of petty does not have to get behind him, you know I mean I've worked with some petty people but not those petty, yeah Yeah, he takes his time, you know, he buys his time He does, definitely But Holmes manages to get the box open and he's empty After all that, yeah All of them is empty, yep Small laughs and says that he threw the treasure into the river And if he and his three compatriots can't have it then nobody can have it Yeah, and that level of petty does something that I thought you were going to say that, I thought you were going to say that you could relate to it Do you know what you were doing? Do you know what you were doing?
Yeah, none of these are the root of all evil after all Let's say you don't have to lose all legs or crocodile though Well, I hope not You bit Arden, where is it you are? Is it? I'm in Blackburn Blackburn, there's not many crocodiles in Blackburn, I don't know what I thought There's not many more legged people, there's not many crocodiles I'm not going to have some more legged people But I haven't really thought of it Well, if I had a more than like I would dramatically unscrew it at any given time Oh, you'd have to, wouldn't you? Yeah You'd have to Well then I would keep being in it as well, yeah You keep your lunch in it No, keep your arms just like a coffee or something like a thermos, you know I'd be famous like No, Colin was here, you'd say that I'd keep a huge bottle of whiskey in the leg, that's what you'd say Yeah, yeah Yeah That would be a good idea, you could actually start something with that You could, yeah You could Yeah, you could Yeah, you could be onto something I don't know I'll maybe I'll paint into it, you know Go, go Dragon's then Yeah, whiskey leg Whiskey leg, oh, whiskey leg I think I've got those anyway Whiskey, whiskey leg, yeah, okay Okay The, the inspector takes small away And Miss Moston thanks Holmes and Watson for all their help And they share a brief silent moment She, well, she shares a brief silent moment with Watson before she leaves Just as a son, I was going to ask you Because you're saying that she, his, his wife in the books Does that ever become a thing in the, in the TV show?
Do we never see her again? Not in this series, no, they didn't do it in this series They sort of kept Watson rooming with Holmes Right, okay Probably just for, I don't know, just to keep it, just to keep it easier maybe Yeah Not another, another, they do in the, I know with the new show, Lock, I believe Yes, yes, the same character So you've got Mary to marry, I like it seems very much I, I sort of dipped in and out with the new show, Lock, it wasn't really my thing But I know that he did get married to her again And yeah Well, you'll definitely get on with Colin, if it's not your thing He can't be aye No, not really my thing But who's the actress, what's she called? What's she called the actress who plays Mary? I can't remember but I think she was really married to Martin Freeman She was, yeah, the, the divorce now And she's with that magician, stop going from Britain's got Colin Oh yeah, really?
Right Yeah, anyway, I'm going off on a time when I, she can't think what her name is He's driving me nuts Well, I'm sure if someone will email us and tell us And then you'll, yeah I'll tweet you, tell you that way Yeah, I'm just, I'm thinking, yeah, go on, yeah, yeah, yeah So, uh, what's the remarks on how attractive Miss Moston is? Not that Holmes has noticed, of course, because he doesn't notice that kind of thing, does he? Apparently not And I was expecting, as I said, more of a twist But that is literally the end of Sherlock Holmes and the sign of four, isn't it? That's how it ends There is no twist The twist is that there is no twist Which is a twist, yes, so again Yeah, that's the end And to me, again, like, I just feel that, I think he should have brought Sally's back for one last season That's what he's missing, I was thinking the exact same thing He's just gone, and he's not going to where's he gone, you know, he's been, you know, he's, he's been, um You know, vilified, he didn't kill his brother and then there's just sort of no more about him Yeah, I completely agree with you, yeah, there's a big Thaddeus whole at the end of it Yeah, I thought they should have brought him back, you know, I don't know, I don't know Absolutely So, Chelsea, what do you think of Sherlock Holmes' sign of four?
I loved it, I do love it It's one of your favourites, and not just because of Ron Mm-hmm It's just really, really, really good one Like I said, you know, they had to sort of draw it out to like, movie-length I think And it could have done a bit more edited, I think, towards the end But I thought it was great Brilliant, yeah, I'd agree with you completely I'm, as I said, I'd never watched this before And I'd have never seen any of them really other than bits and pieces And what have I been missing? This is brilliant I recommend that you get on that really And just give it a go from the first episode I mean, we say that Sherlock Holmes doesn't, you know, he doesn't find women attractive, he doesn't know what to say But there is a study in Scarlet and he meets this lady who he said A face that a man would die for is how he described her So she's like, I think the only woman that ever really kind of turned his head Yeah, yeah And she sort of matches him with the intellect, she's great, she's a really good character She's played by Gail Honeycott Oh, right, thank you Who was with Ron in Dylan? Yes, yeah, I watched that recently, actually I watched that recently, yeah Yeah, it's Gail Honeycott Jeremy Bratty's perfectly pitched in his homes, isn't he? He's calculated, arrogant, rude, and yet there's a sense of humanity, as you say, about him He's, that's something that gets lost in a lot of interpretations in other Sherlock Holmes But he pulls it off fantastically I think so, and I think he looks at the illustrations as well Absolutely, he looks like Sherlock Holmes, doesn't he?
Yeah, personally, if you have Sherlock Holmes, I mean, I guess like You've got like, to Basil the great mouse detective They're all based on Basil Raphon I think the American audience is seeing Basil Raphon with Sherlock Holmes Yeah, yeah It's just, to me, it will always be Jeremy Brat I do love those Basil Raphon movies though, I have to say Yeah, very entertaining, yeah The supporting cast are all great, and this is especially Ron, obviously He steals everything that he's in I think Ron's fine with the performance, I really do Yeah, he's brilliant, there might as well not be anyone else in the room with him Because you just can't take your eyes off him, can you? Yeah, he wouldn't be very interested in all, if there was no Well, he'd be for you, he would be for you You're not saying anything to do with anything, but you know what? He could probably pull it off Oh, definitely He looks like he's really enjoying himself in the part as well He looks like he's having a while at the time playing the character You're just not straining up, we can't talk to him, you know we can't ask him about that kind of thing I mean, none of them are with us anymore He said, Jenny Seagro, the match he said, you know she doesn't really remember It's a long time ago Yeah, yeah, that's a shame I like the attention to the period detail, the real locations really add to it And it all feels really, it doesn't feel like it was made for television, does it? It feels like a movie Yeah, yeah, yeah It's certainly up there with one of the best episodes It's just a shame that there's that whole John Thorbit Which I know you need because that's the payoff at the end, isn't it?
And I don't think it's much of a payoff That's the only negative thing I would say, I thought the ending was a little bit underwhelming Like you said, yeah, I think it would have benefited from bringing Ron back Just give it that little bit of a push at the end I think That's my, I mean John Thor played such a good part And really if they didn't have that sort of ending without it would have been vastly like underused Yeah He just isn't really in it all the way through until the end Unless Face anyone could have played that part, he didn't have to be John Thorbit Yeah You know, as characters in this go He's the least interesting one, apart from his leg obviously Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, he did it, he did it, he does it really really well John Thor I think he was just great in it It's just, yeah, like he said, a bit long Yeah, definitely But yeah, all in all, this was a definite hit for me We're doing what you said, I think I'm going to be watching more of it Yeah That's brilliant I highly recommend it as a series Just like the activity for ones, I can say they do edit them quite a lot I mean you might be as well getting like a DVD set as well with the money Well I've got a Brit box, so I'll just have a look on that Yeah, so I'm going to be getting up and putting a DVD And I find it's too much trouble, can I be in stream then? Do you find that now that even though you might have the physical media If you know it's streaming, you just can't be bothered I just cannot, I always think if it's not streaming I'm not going to watch it Because I cannot be bothered getting up I mean it's all the way over there and you can't get up You know, honestly it just needs such a fast putting in a DVD You're watching it when you can just sort of press a few buttons on your own I know, I did say manage in the 70s before remote controls existed I mean we're complaining that we've got to get up and put a DVD in our blue rut Yeah, I'm trying to like press in play and be calling the same time It's as hard as impossible Forget it, forget it So I'd like to say a big thank you to Chelsea for stepping in for this episode Thank you Chelsea Thank you, welcome, thank you for having me back Oh you're always welcome Remind our listeners where they can find you on social media Well we're on Twitter, Ronald's Lacey Panz We're on Facebook, Ronald's Lacey Panz And we're on YouTube as well It's all the same Easy to remember at least We're on Instagram as well, yeah Instagram's there Twister's the best one, that tends to be what I use more than anything Twister Yeah, and I would urge everyone that's interested in Ronald Lacey to go and check that out because you post some really interesting stuff and it's always entertaining and it's always informative as well It's fun It is No, no, I was just saying that the things I found out that Ronald was in was just unbelievable He's got a vast back catalogue of work hasn't he? He does He does Yes So thank you to everyone for listening and please leave us a rating or review if you can because it really does help us out If you want to contact us you can reach us on Facebook and Twitter So until next time, bye Bye