125: Plato IX: Tyrone

Hey out there, classical stuffers. This is AJ and I've got a bit of a special message before the regular episode comes in. We recorded this about three weeks ago now, maybe four, before we post a bunch of episodes, we like to record them in a batch, so we don't have to meet so often. Longtime listeners will probably know that.

If you're a new listener, you probably won't, which means that this episode might seem insensitive. We are not talking much about the quarantine, we haven't discussed it, and a lot has changed since this episode was recorded. So keep that in mind as you listen and then look forward because as this goes on, obviously I won't be able to meet with the other two guys. Graham is sheltering with his wife and Thomas with his wife and child, and we can't exactly get together to record very well, and they don't both have the equipment necessary to make a high-quality podcast.

So in the coming weeks, I'm going to try my very best to post pretty regular episodes. If I can, fingers crossed, I'm going to try to do them daily. But I'll be recording the Decamaran. The Decamaran is a story where, I think, seven women and three young men shelter in place from the Black Death, from everything that was going on around them, and they try to entertain themselves by telling stories.

So 100 stories, and I'm going to try to post them over 100 days. And then my first episode will be an introduction to the whole. I'm not just going to read them, I'm going to retell them so it's not too terrible for you out there in quarantine land. But I hope that gets you excited, I'm excited to do the project.

It seems particularly apt for the moment to do the Decamaran. I hope that gets you pumped. And until then, until quarantine is lifted, we can't record regular episodes. If it lasts longer than the Decamaran can last, I don't know what we'll do afterwards, I'm sure I'll think of something fun.

And keep you guys full of classical things, even if you can't go outside. So this is AJ signing off and sending you into our regular episode. Thanks. Hello and welcome to classical stuff you should know a podcast about old things and books and whatever we feel like talking about.

My name is Thomas Magby. I'm joined as always by Mr. AJ Hanenburg. That's this guy?

Oh, so that's you. So, okay. And Mr. Graham Donaldson, sorry.

I thought you were going to do an Amber. You're not a cheater. Yeah, as a professional, he only responds to his name. I don't do anything silly on this spot.

I'm a rascal. I'm a rascal. I'm a rascal. Hey, so today we are going to be talking about book nine.

You rascal is shimmy. I don't know. Audience you missed it. He said I'm a rascal and then shimmy his shoulders.

This is why we need a video. Oh, not the terrible idea. It would be a terrible idea. Hey, speaking of book nine and video podcasts, what?

Do you have some like favorite TV series that lasted for nine seasons? Oh, not Star Wars. That's for sure. Wait, no, I was going to end with saying that our favorite episode nine thing was Star Wars.

Wait, you don't feel that? Wait, what? I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. The greatest way. I'm leaning Star Wars from yeah. It was like the perfect movie.

I don't know plot. I mean, I know. Oh, sorry. Sorry.

Sorry. Sorry. I have holes in it. I have holes in the vacuum.

Yeah, you're fair on that. All right. I think you are leading us today. Okay.

This is the penultimate Plato podcast listener. If you're tying up a Plato podcast, I just want to finish it. Like I'm in it. I was like at five episodes and I'm like, I just got to finish the snicker.

So some dirty get up. I thought that episode eight. I was super interested in book eight. I was super interested in book eight.

I was super interested in book nine. Yeah. Yeah. So this is book nine.

And the first thing I need to talk about is bees. No, if you remember the last podcast that yeah, I talked about the drones and I was like, Plato's bad at bees. Of course, they serve a purpose. They actually don't.

I'm bad at bees and Plato is good at bees. Here's what drones actually do within the hive. Their sole job is to mate with the queen. That's all they do.

They do not collect pollen. They do not help raise the young. They hang out and they mate. They have a job.

They may. Right. Did you do you did the research ahead of today? Well, I got my mom text at me and she's like, I actually know a lot about bees.

I had no idea that my mother knew about bees, but apparently she's a beist. What do you call this? She doesn't keep bees. An ap area is the name of a bee.

If you send bovary. Bovary. Bovary. Nope.

Nope. This is not a bee person and this is not helping. So be a keeper. Bee man.

Nope. This is a real good one. Okay. She said that and she's right.

I confirmed that they do have only one function, but for the most part, they just kind of hang out and do nothing. And at one point, they would so read, just consume the resources of the hive uselessly that the worker bees literally kick them out of the hive to sort of die on their own. Right. Modern analogy to like, I don't know, the young men of today.

No, this is really like maybe the young man of today, but that's Plato's point is that there are people in a society that all they do is sort of suck the resources of everybody else. They spend a lot of money and they don't actually add any value and we should kick them all out. They're the way that new bees come about, right? They're in the hive, but maybe in society, they're a little more.

They don't contribute as a right. So the best are the ones who rule and then the people with the most spirit are the ones who fight and everybody else gets jobs. And then we talked about the Timocracy, which is an honor based society. So lots of lots of spirit in that one, right?

They're not necessarily just going for money. They're going for honor, which is the second best type of society. And we call that the Timmy. So Timmy works solely for honor and that's what he's all about.

He'll just bust through that wall. You got a spirit. Okay. All right.

That's what I was thinking. Yeah. Anyone is a democracy, the Kool-Aid world is a democracy. It's all spirit.

Yeah. Breaking through every wall. Okay. So I'm like, what's this?

Come on. All right. Timmy has a kid and his kid sees his dad dishonored eventually at the end of his life. And he's like, wow, I'm not going to work for honor if somebody could just take it away from me at some point.

So he works for cash. And the same thing happens in a society. Eventually in a democracy, the honorable men all make a bunch of cash and then they start to hoard it and then we start to honor people who have money. And that's oligarchy.

We need him, Oliver. So Oliver works for money. He's like, I don't want my stuff taken away. I hate living in an abject poverty.

I want cash, right? That's an Ollie. He's like, subreddit Wall Street Bets. Like that kid.

Exactly Wall Street Bets. And so- They're in the cover of like New York Magazine or something. Do you guys know Wall Street Bets? No.

I do now. I do now. But they were on that subreddit was on the cover of Wall, like I think it was the New York Magazine or Bloomberg or something basically being like, look at these yahoos and anyway, whatever. My favorite Wall Street Bets are the guys.

There was a guy who figured out how to get basically infinite leverage out of Robinhood. It was a little leverage glitch. And so he made, you can just get as much money as you wanted. And so he took like $40,000 or something like that and put them all into apple puts and then you watch as apple goes up like four percent and he just lost, he loses everything.

And he's on the hook for all of it. Right. And like watch his face go downcast. It's like sitting in his car and he's like, oh, yeah, that's a bad day.

That's a whole college debt right there. That's Carlone. Anyway, so that's an Oliver and an oligarchy and then what comes after oligarchy? Democracy.

Democracy. We get tired of the ruling class. The B3. And he has named a Demetri.

And so if your dad is a rich fella who's worked all his life to get good stuff. So he encourages the good virtues because that means that has helped him get money and he doesn't want to be seen as vicious because people don't really want to do business with a vicious person. And so his kid is rich. He's rich.

He's not guilty. His dad encourages those same good virtues because his dad wants him to make money. He doesn't feel the same compulsion because he's never lived in poverty. And he's got a lot of rich friends.

And so they introduce him to basically, libertarianism. He gets to go kind of do whatever he wants to. Right. And so he lets all these pleasures in.

He still kind of knows which ones are good and his dad is still there as a voice. And so he tries to encourage those. But he sees all virtues as kind of all pleasures as kind of the same and sort of gives himself over to those pleasures. And that's the Demetri.

And then what does democracy like? How does democracy come about from oligarchy? You guys remember? They fought together and then the sunburned white fellas realized that these guys are in charge.

These guys are what we think are better than us. The richies are pretty worthless. So let's overthrow him and take all their stuff. And so that is where we get a democracy.

So tasty looking. How does democracy go into... That was really rich. Wow, okay.

That's absolutely... He's still shimmying. I don't understand. So how does democracy go into tyranny?

We haven't talked about this. We haven't talked about the Tyrone yet, the type of person that is tyranny. They all throw rich. Oh, there's this inversion of the people want to lead and leaders want to not lead.

And so without the democracy. Yeah. And you still have the drones. Remember the drones are the people that spend a lot of money and they start to prey on the people who are useful in making things and people who are actually useful in making things real tired of it.

And so they elect one person to kind of be their hero and stop these stupid drones from taking all their money and cheating him and stuff. And then he gets a little taste for power. He doesn't want to give it up. He doesn't want to give it up.

He's killed a whole bunch of people who are worthless at the society. He's like, hey, killing people is pretty easy. Especially when you have a mob at your best. So let's kill a few more.

And then he gets rid of all the friends who would stop him from doing what he's doing. And there you have a tyranny. Awesome. Okay.

So that's a little review of book eight. It's important because book nine is going to make some use of that. And then the beginning of book nine, he differentiates between the two type of pleasures or appetites. We touched briefly last chapter.

Any unnecessary pleasure is one that's kind of awake when your reason is dead. You get drunk, it's late at night. It's the thing that wakes up in you when you stop using your brain. And then the necessary ones are the ones necessary to life and all of that sort of thing.

Makes sense? You have to eat food. Got to eat food and you can have pleasure in good food. You can have pleasure in exercise.

You can have pleasure in discourse. All of those. Pleasure and exercise. Apparently people say that.

They're out of their mind. So the necessary pleasures are okay. The unnecessary ones are less okay. Yes, less okay.

Is this what you have? This is book nine. This is book nine. We are fresh into book nine.

Okay. So how does the Tyrone come about? Remember he's kind of the son of a democratic dad. The democratic dad is one who treats all pleasures of life the same.

So how would a tyrannical person come about from that? And what does it mean to be a tyrannical person? Yes. He said he comes around because he's protecting the interests of like the wealthy people against the not the wealthy people in a tyranny.

Yes. Okay. But how does he start? Yeah.

He's ruled by passion. Okay. No, I'm just thinking if your dad is all about the pleasures and passion grows on what is grows by being fed on. You feed your passions and you grow them.

The tyrannical man has a tyrannical soul. So his soul is ruled by his appetites. Okay. Great.

Yes. Cool. All right. So you kind of nailed it.

He's got a tyrannical soul. All right. So boys, that's all this book nine. No, that's not the whole thing.

We talk about Tyrone a little bit. But yeah, you're essentially right. He is brought up in the life of a libertine. His dad treats all passions the same.

He grows up with money. Oh, so he can go after all the pleasures. He can go after all the pleasures. Okay.

Just like his dad did. But he has no reason not to. There's no. There's no.

He's got no other treats at all the same. Whatever son, do what you want. Get weird in college. Go bananas.

Do all the craziness. Right. And so his democratic dad kind of brings him into the lawless life and his friends are kind of the same. Right.

Okay. A bunch of other rich folks. And as they sort of begin to lose control of this kid, they'll try to set up one sort of passion as the ruling passion, something kind of in charge. Right.

Explain. So Plato says that kind of when he becomes this, like he gives his life or to idle lusts and spending all his money and all of this uselessness, they got to figure out some way to control this kid. So they usually try to set up one thing as like the controlling passion. Does that make sense?

Yeah. That's what the one thing is or is it different for each person? Yeah. He kind of hits the sun's passion for video games.

Is that a thing you've ever had someone like? Oh, yeah. Really? Passion for video games.

I'm Pat. Yes. It's like I found my passion in its game, it's video games, Mr. Gonson.

Called out. I bet you're a hooted party. There's one thing I've learned is that video game stories are not good stories. That's it.

Anyway, then I know scoped him across the mouth. Cool. Sweet. Okay.

So yeah, they kind of give him this one mastered passion to lord over all of his other lusts, right, to sort of maybe guide him and keep control of them. Because they're trying to get some, they're trying to like derive some kind of usefulness out of him. Or maybe they're just tired of hanging around a kid who's all over the place. Okay.

Because the way they're going about it is not trying to instill some kind of value. We can't fix you. So let's just like pick up ice and make sure the vice pulls you in the right direction. Is this similar to like the Girlfriend College to get a good job?

Like will appeal to your greed because that will help you get good grades, help you get into college? Like is that similar to what is being talked about? Maybe you guys are passionate. Maybe you can make more sense of it than I can.

So then you must further imagine the same thing to happen to the son which has already happened to the father, which would be the democratic man. He's drawn into a perfectly lawless life which by his seducers is termed perfect liberty. And his father and friends take part with his moderate desires. And the opposite party is just the opposite ones.

I don't know who the opposite party is. Like is it his non-friends, the people who don't think he's great. As soon as anyway, as soon as these dire magicians and tyrant makers find that they are losing their hold on him, they can try to implant him a master passion to be lured over his idol and spendthrift lusts. A sort of monstrous winged drone.

That is the only image which will adequately describe him. It does not adequately. The drone is the person himself. It's the person himself.

And so maybe it's that his father and friends want this kid to be good and that there's another group that want to take advantage of him or use him or something. And then they want to keep control by giving one big lust. Maybe you can think of it like this. And again, this passage, I don't know who the opposite party is that they refer to here.

And so maybe we could liken it to his father and friends really do want good things for this kid. But his drug dealer doesn't. And so his drug dealer wants to set up a master passion over this kid, cocaine, and thereby control him and make him what he wants and get money out of him. Does that make sense?

I can see that being what it is. It would also just be that when you're a dad and you've got a kid that's a complete mess, eventually you've got to control him somehow. Okay. And so then- I thought it was going to be more like, I thought I was an egotistical sociopath, but it turns out I'm passionate about banking or something.

Kind of, yeah. We actually get to this is, I'm so excited for the next conversation. I think you guys are going to dive right into it. But let me kind of read what happens to him.

And when his other lusts amid clouds of incense and perfumes and garlands and wines and all the pleasures of a dissolute life now let loose. They come buzzing around him, nourishing to the utmost sting of desire which they implant in his drone like nature. So his lusts are sort of giving this desire, like the big overruling tyranny of his soul. Then at last this Lord of the soul, having madness for the captain of his guard breaks out into a frenzy.

And he finds in himself any, and if he finds in himself any good opinions or appetites in process of formation. And there isn't any sense of shame remaining to these better principles he puts an end and casts them forth until he has purged away temperance and brought in madness to the full. So he wants to serve this overarching desire and all these other little desires so much that he's ready to cast out shame as best he can. Okay.

And then the next one, the next sentence says kind of, and isn't this, this is not this the reason why of old love has been called a tyrant. Oh, okay. What does that mean? Oh, it's just, I mean, I don't know.

I don't know yet. Love is called the tyrant because it focuses on one object of passion. One object of passion even to the detriment of the others and it's certainly not driven by reason. He even mentions love again later.

A certain kind of love. He liked the sort of love that sort of that swancy little boat. Yeah, sure. But not the long patient love of the Christian marriage.

Yeah, I would say this is definitely a passionate love of desire. Yeah. Right. And he even refers to it again when he starts saying like how this guy lives, right?

We were just talking of his origins, how he comes about. And the next question is, well, how does he live? And he says, I imagine I said at the next step in his progress that there will be feasts and corals and revelings and courtesans and all that sort of thing. You got it.

Love is the lord of the house within him and orders all that concerns of his soul. So tyrant is a lover. Isn't that crazy? That's interesting.

Yeah, that makes sense. It does. I mean, there's something he's looking for in all those experiences. Yeah.

And you can't I guess it makes sense that you can't give yourself to a whole bunch of different pleasures equally. Eventually you're going to find one and just sink yourself within it, right? So even within those examples, he would find out he likes feasting the most. Like you mean that?

Yeah, that's what I mean is that eventually one will kind of grow within him to the detriment of the others and he'll just follow it. The other ones won't go away. Sure. They'll become some surfing.

Yeah. This is a bummer. Okay. Yeah, isn't it?

It's not great. What happens when that's all you're doing? What's the logical end of spending all your time doing that? You're literally running in a rough spot.

You broke. Okay. So now he's broke. And what do you do when you're broke and you're still absolutely crowded by desires and as you would term it, love.

Steel. Like a crime, baby. Steel. Find a way to make that money.

Find a way to make that money. And when you are a young rich kid, what's the way you make the money? Go to dad. Your parents.

Yeah, exactly. And so he's going to go to his parents and he's going to think like I'm young, they're old. Why should they have the money more than I have the money? And so you're going to try to get it out of your parents.

And if you can't get it out of your parents by asking them, I'm passionate about the music. Yeah. That's good. I want to follow ACDC to Asia.

Yeah. He's like, oh, my kid found what he's loose for. He just wants to be a DJ. Hey, what you talking about?

He's a DJ. No, but I mean, like, but it's definitely not my. I'm very realistic about where DJs fall in the creativity spectrum. Like at least the way I do it.

It's not very creative. So when they're like the moving on the stage and they're twisting those knobs, those knobs do anything? It depends. If you don't hear any change in the music, sometimes no.

They are just touching a knob and nothing like anything. That's funny. DJ, I would just like get it all set and then just go and hit the space bar play and then just sit quietly for two hours. And then it was done, hit the space bar to end it and then walk up stage.

So a lot of professional DJs because they have to sync it with the lights and the pyrotech mix and everything else. It really is just press. Really? Just exactly.

It's a huge show. There are DJs that work really hard to make that, not the case. Dead Naus is one of those. He has a lot of control up front.

Why are you talking about a great show? It's a great show. Dead Naus, you are definitely not listening to this. If you are, that was a great sync and show.

I have got a lot of respect for how hard you work. And rep sync, Catherine's? Yep. I'm a Canadian.

Anyway, so if you can't get money out of Mom and Dad, they cut him off because he has sunk all his money into DJing all his passion or this girl that he found. Oh, yeah. He's going to take it. And there's a couple of different ways he can do that.

He can either try to cheat them out of it. And if he can't kind of cheat it out of them, he'll take it by force. He'll just start stealing from him and he will become a tyrant to his mom and his dad. And so it says, on account of some new fangled love of a harlot who is anything but a necessary connection, can you believe that he would strike the mother who is his ancient friend and necessary to his very existence and would place her under the authority of the other when she's brought under the same roof.

She doesn't want me to be happy. She's being like a rational and just unreasonable. Yep. And then he does the same thing with his dad and his most indispensable friends.

And he just becomes a punk. Like he just becomes a punk and sort of gives himself over to it. Right? So that's not a great vision of a future of this person.

So he's ruled by a single love. He tries to get money. And if he can't get it by Kajolary, he'll get it by the three. Right?

Yeah. But I think it's funny that love is the tyrannical emotion. It's weird to think of that as the case. Okay.

So then he gets a whole bunch of buddies. Right? And then he's always going to be a master or a servant because he can never have a true, honest friend. Why would that be the case?

Because they're vicious. They're bad people. I don't know. They can either get you the pleasure.

If it's all about getting a certain pleasure, then it's not ever about the people you're with. It's about the thing you get with them. I've been nailed it. Yeah.

I'm not a virtuous man. I've never gonna want to hang out with you. So you're only gonna attract other people. I'm not a virtuous man.

I'm not a virtuous man. I'm not a virtuous man. I'm never gonna want to hang out with you. Right.

So you're only gonna attract other vicious people and they're gonna see you as other, you can get something out of you or you are getting something out of them. Yeah. Either you can sort of be subservient because them as a master, they will give you what you want if you just serve them or you can get what you want out of them by being the master of them. Take the Hollywood entourage.

Yes. It's like the Hollywood entourage, exactly. And so I would never be friends with you because what pleasure do you give me other than sometimes good Canadian jokes? I can get you good roles.

Roles? Yeah. In the next movie. Oh, I thought you were just like, yeah.

Thanksgiving. Yeah. I was sweet as roles. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. And eventually he will be miserable and the one who's been a tyrant the longest will be the most miserable and that is just a huge bummer. Right. So that is a picture of Tyrone, a miserable man.

How's he in charge? How does he get to be like the dude in charge? Just because there's a ringleader within every group of people. How can the people flock to him and say, lead us?

It doesn't, just because he's driven by, well, he might be driven by a love, but doesn't mean he's not charming. They're just kind of like natural hierarchies, right? Yeah. That somebody's just kind of lift up as the leader.

Yeah. And it's weird because now we're sort of, one of the things I want to talk about is we are kind of getting back to, they're both monarchies, right? Tyrone and aristocracy. One is driven by reason and one is driven by love.

That's right. I would rather be gallant. Then. Then love them.

Oh, okay. You'd rather be gallant than passionate? Yeah. I would rather be the aristocrat than the tyrant of myself.

I guess. I wouldn't, everyone's, who would say that they want to be a tyrant? The person who was like, I just love that I love for the music. Uh huh.

Yep. How would you get out of that kid like, yes, also tyranny of government? I agree with that. I don't think there's often, I usually do not see the connection between Tyrone and love, but I see what he's saying, that love becomes a tyrant if it's in charge or it gets passionate because of Tyrone, if it's in charge.

Yeah. It's the controlling. He sees, yeah. But he explains away his behavior and that he doesn't need to rule himself because he is driven along by some force that is so much more bigger than him and he's just got to purr by the way and just like, suck the marrow out of life.

Moment dad are trying to stop me from doing it. Yeah, exactly. And like, you just got to steal their money. Steal their money and it doesn't matter because, you know, it's all about the music.

I don't know. It's like the romantic story. Like it's the. Exactly.

But he will stop at nothing to follow this love that may not be reasonable and he will damage a lot of people around him and that singular obsession will mean that all of his friends are avenues to that end, whether he be subservient or be masters over them. Don't let anybody tell you that you shouldn't get what you want. Get your dream. Exactly.

Yeah. That's just the recipe for the soul's tyranny. And we're not saying that you can't have a dream. We're just saying that like this guy has put his desire, his one pleasure above absolutely everything else.

Oh, grab a drink. Green. Green. I'm going to shoulder the responsibilities placed upon me.

That sounds like a, like a bomber. Like a sick. Stick it in mud. And then you're like, you know what?

You should do shoulder responsibilities. I'm going to pour myself a prune juice. No, I mean your responsibility for a healthy digestive system. Yeah, that's a good, good, good.

Yep, yep, yep. You're really disproving a form. That's great. Okay.

All right. So they, we've, we've, we've, we did the five forms of government. We talked about the five types of people that come with it. And so he's like, now remember all the way back to the beginning of the book, we were trying to figure out what kind of person was the happiest person.

Oh, yeah. The person who was actually just, or the person who just had the appearance of justice but still got to do whatever they want to. Oh, right. I'm seeing it.

Whoa, the, the, the, the first of all coming together. So he says, okay, now we have to decide who's the happiest. We've got the five forms. We've got the five forms of people.

Let's, let's look at the states and figure out which ones the happiest state. The entire. The first one is the happiest person. The first one is what we want to do.

You know what we need is a judge who's known all these types of people who has got to hang out with the tyrant, seen him grow, seen the way he acts, seen how like, is intimate with his ways of life. That's the kind of good, reasonable judge we need. And then the guy he's talking to black on says, that again is a very fair proposal. Good.

And then Socrates says, shall I assume that we ourselves are able and experienced judges and have before now met with such a person. He's like, you know who'd be a great judge? Ospoic! Ospoic!

He was a snail! Hey, great to go. OK, so let's begin with the state. Of the types of state, who do you think is the happiest?

Would you say that aristocracy is the happiest? The tyranny is the happiest for anywhere in between. Isn't the democracy the happiest? Because I think they're the happiest.

Because everyone's free. OK, so it is charming. But he would say that the aristocracy is happiest. But that's what he would say.

Everybody is tuned to their job and doing what they're supposed to do. And happy because the state is being ruled well. And democracy. I assume that was the answer, but I thought you were going to do that.

It's democracy. No, he would obviously say the aristocracy is happiest. And the democracy is troubling because what you want are people who act like rulers and rulers who act like subjects. And it's a big inversion of everything.

And nobody is connected to a compulsion to do any sort of tradition or obligation to the state. And everyone is given to their own passions. And so he would say that's probably not a very happy state. Everyone thinks they're happy and feels like they're happy, but it's not truly a happy place.

Obviously the worst one is tyranny. Right. Everybody's a source. Everyone is an enslaved interior.

And it's miserable. And even the worst bit is even the tyrant is miserable. Right. He's having a bad time too.

And Tyrone is obviously the worst of people because his best impulses are enslaved by the worst. He has the soul of a slave. There's a gadfly in him which compels everything he does. He is a slave to his passions.

Do you guys have heard that phrase before? Slaved to his passions. Right. And then the arty, the aristocrat would be the one whose best parts are the ruling principal of a soul.

Doesn't mean he can't have pleasures or have passions, but they are ruled by his spirit and his reason. Right. When we say this like Cato, maybe. Yeah.

When we are saying this, are we saying the aristocrat within the aristocratic society is the happiest person or everyone in that society because they have their place is happiest? Everyone in the society would be happy ideally. The aristocrat person is the happiest type of person. He's ruled on the inside.

Yeah. He says, but one thing you're forgetting is that the worst state to be in, the absolutely worst is when you are a tyrannical person who also happens to be a tyrant. Like you're a Tyrone who actually did it and got to be a tyrant. So why would that, what would be unhappy about being a Tyrone in the position of a tyrant?

What can you guys enumerate the things that can make you unhappy? No. I know I'm asking really guiding questions here. No, not only do you, are you controlled by your own passions, you also have to like deal stuff.

You're like in charge. You got like people talking to you and you got to like, I don't know, work out sanitation commissions and you have all the, you have everybody wants to like cut your head off and you've got to, you got to watch your back and you just want to be left alone so you can do your passion or whatever. Yeah. I also like the best position to accomplish the things you want and still aren't happy.

Like if you're any level below the tyrant, you can say, I want to get the next level up, things will be better. Yeah, when I'm in charge. Right. And instead you're in charge and it's still not good and there's no.

No, hide in the fact that none of it will help you or make you happy. Yeah. Yeah. No vacation time.

He lives in his whole like a woman hidden in the house and is jealous of any other citizen who goes into foreign parts and sees things of interest because he's, I imagine because he's afraid of usurpation, afraid of rebellion. He has things to take care of, right? So he has all these desires, but he can't satisfy them partially because he's got stuff to do, right? That's what you said.

And he's not master of himself and yet he is compelled to master others. This says he is like a diseased or paralytic man who is compelled to pass his life, not in retirement, but fighting in fighting and combat with other men. So he does not have the capacity to rule and yet he is forced to rule other people, right? Can't rule himself, has to rule others.

And the last and worst, and he says, I'm going to make you sort of an analogy. I remember at these time they had slaves. And he says, so imagine a wealthy slave owner. You've got 50 slaves, right?

So if you live in a city, what is keeping those slaves from rebelling against you? They'll get picked out of the city. Yeah. There are other citizens, right, with power and with slaves that will come to my rescue if my slaves rebel.

Right. Take that man and put him out of the city, put him in a forest. He goes on a big journey with only his slaves. What is he afraid of?

Oh, his slaves. You're going to pick the crap out of him. Yeah. He is absolutely in total complete fear that his slaves are going to rebel and murder him.

And the only way that he can prevent that from happening is by taking some of his slaves and by bribery or other means get them to protect him. Right. And so do you guys see that played out in any current tyrannies? We have tyrannies around the world.

I mean, sure, you always need to have what's the need to have people complicit. Well, what happened? So when Saddam Hussein came into power, he had some of the people who wanted who didn't want him to come into power. They're the other people?

They're like wavering. And so there were some who were clearly opposed to him and some who were clearly in favor of him, but kind of in the middle group. Those were the group that in the middle group was tasked with executing those who were totally opposed to him. So that's why he got them complicit in the crime and other kind of on your side.

Locked in supporting him. Yeah. And I think you always have to have some coterie of people that you absolutely pour pleasures into. Right.

I'm thinking of any tyrant who's got say an army, but all of those army generals live in the absolute lap of luxury. Right. They've got girls and they've got food and they've got entertainment. They've got money and they've got planes and they have everything they want.

And so basically he needs to bribe them to stay on his side because he knows if he ever treated his generals anything but perfectly, they would turn right and kill him. So man, what a scary position to be in. That sucks. That's terrible.

Okay. So that is the first proof that the just man is happier than the unjust. Sure. Right.

Oh, okay. We've gone all journey to come back to that question. Okay. So that's our first proof.

Our first proof is that the tyrannical man is having a terrible time and that the tyrannical tyrant is the most unhappy of men. All of them. Right. Okay.

Proof number two. So we're leading behind Tyrone and the crew. Okay. So if there's three different kind of divisions of the soul, there's reason, there's passion and there's appetite, you can sort of say there's three different types of men, right?

Some who want honor, some who want knowledge and truth and some who want all the other base pleasures. And those guys, he says we can kind of simplify it because to get the great, the pleasures, you got to have cash. Most of those pleasures require some sort of money, right? If you are addicted to sex, you're going to need prostitutes.

If you are addicted to money or to food, you're going to need money to buy food. So he says, really, those people generally just want money. Okay. Right.

So which of the three gets to enjoy the most pleasure? Like gets to enjoy the pleasures of the other two the most. So the guy who wants honor can hit, can honors be enjoyed by people who want money and by people who want truth? Like, will they get any portion of the honor pleasure?

What about the guy who wants money? Will he have any pleasure in the truth? Like who gets, who gets to enjoy the most out of all three, right? The top one.

The reasonable one. The rational one. Okay. Do you explain why?

Because he can probably also enjoy money for what it's for as far as I can take him. Okay. He enjoys pleasures but not be driven by them. Sure.

He can probably also enjoy honor. But I don't know. Because the, if I'm hearing, so like the competitive one always wants more. So however much money they have, they always want more money to then go buy more sweet sauces or whatever the thing is.

The spirited one will always want more honor than they have. And so they're never pleased with the honor they have. Is that, am I getting at this right? And then the rational one will just see that what they have is what they have.

Like it'll be an accurate view. Or you can lose your honor but you can't lose the things that you've learned. Knowledge. I think you guys are probably right.