139: Purgatory, Yo

Hi, welcome to classical stuff. You should know a podcast about classical stuff that you should know My name is Graham Donaldson and I am a podcaster With my friends AJ Hannenberg. I'm also a podcaster and Thomas Maggie. I guess I'm a podcast.

I mean we're mid 30 year old men of course Maybe told me what the topic was today and first I got really mad And then I got really jealous that I didn't think about it and then as he just started to describe what we're gonna Do I was like oh man, I don't want to do any of that Maybe For the record maybe say we're talking about wrath envy and sloth and so I was trying to I believe all of our intro is required you having to listen to the entire episode to understand the joke being made at the beginning So I hope people just have these on loop. It's our stick. Yep. We gotta be consistent with every end of guys It's all my flaws No, no, it's like we're It's like that movie where they go back in time.

What's that movie that had me watch primer? Yeah, it's like that It's like you can only understand the end and you can only send the beginning once you get to the end you want to go back It's so good. Yes watch of it's great. I also told one of my students that Every episode of our podcast there is one word that we say that doesn't seem to fit with the sentence that we're saying And if they go back and listen to all 160 episodes and take that word and put it together There's a really gnarly sentence that we said the word no I just wanted them to go back and listen to you I think so for a little bit and that's what I wanted them to go back and listen to all hundred and some episodes to see if they Would something together so many thanks to all of you okay I am talking about Dante's purgatory today So in Graham just made a very funny joke about how we'll be talking about in the rap and sloth today So those are the circles of purgatory that we'll be covering Snarky snarky responses is not one of the circles recovering apologize.

Well, if you had we're talking about dodges purgatory on your Ringo card drink wait, no as what you're taking a read or something. Yeah, I don't know okay, so drink Uh, what would you like a string? I'm drink coffee. You're drinking coffee.

It's a red cup. We can't really tell it's inside of it Okay, so I this this isn't our first time talking about non-furgatory. We had one introductory episode pre-covid We had two PC P. Oh pre-covid.

I thought you meant politically correct, which I guess it was I don't know then we had two episodes during covid which introduced us well I think got us to the gates of purgatory or one was the gates of purgatory in the next was the first circle Which was for the prideful and then now this is our fourth podcast problem Did you ever answer why Kato's there? Oh because he made it we did in the episode could we he makes a sacrifice that Dante sees his prefiguring Christ, so if you have no idea what we're talking about go listen to our other purgatory episodes He takes it for the Republic. Yes, so in Caesar is coming to Take the city or whatever exactly what's happening there are different tellings of the story But the way Dante interprets is that Kato makes a sacrifice for the people below him He sacrifices his life and that others would be saved. He sees this as a prefiguring of the Christ event So like that doesn't happen anymore people making no just like like Kato taking it on the chin to like for the Republic Yeah, maybe is that the troops?

Yeah, I guess there's no I got I'm thinking about like somebody who was in the Senate, right? Like our Senate or whatever so I'm speaking of the Senate where have we been so far in Dante's purgatory? What do you all remember about this giant book? It's a mountain it is a mountain there lagoon.

Yeah, kind of so yeah Purgatory is the mountain that is made when Satan hits the earth It makes a little hole that makes a big hole that hole is the inferno the land that comes out the other side is the purgatory mount purgatory Which is where we are the first so it's like hell's divot. Yeah sure good info in the album, so Golf metal. Yeah I have a friend from my school who started a band and their tagline was music you rock your grandma to I always remember that Anyway, that's kind of the same anyway, okay, so we had an anti either whatever. It was just a very strange tagline So the we start the book coming out of hell.

That's where Dante was in part the first He you know see Satan then comes out the other side and there's Mount purgatory. We spent a bunch of time in the anti purgatory or anti It's that not whatever it's a foyer. Yes the foyer of purgatory Which is not super cheerful you can go back and listen to previous episodes But the whole point here is that people are being purged of sins before they go to heaven Maybe to use more I think this is more modern way to talk about it everyone in purgatory is saved Everyone in purgatory is going to heaven But before they can go to heaven there are sins that need to be corrected either atone four or really more removed from the person before they are Prepared to intern to heaven. That was a sound of a thousand Protestants stopping the episode And just as I were just describing Dante's views you all did say on the first episode that you all were open to there being an actual Purgatory I think I am I don't remember this you take it back.

It's literally we do a podcast It's literally recorded so I think I am I know I know like I don't know You're angling growing up like Russell more will come after me or something So He's more serious than we are okay, so we in the course of like you know three episodes We covered a very small portion of the book I'm gonna try and cover roughly a comparable number of can't cantoes Can't eat depending if you're Italian or English as I've been covered in three episodes. We'll see how much I fail as we Prago So we wrapped up You know the episode a few months ago before the circle of the proud the proud are people The proud were proud. It's you know really circular. They their punishment is that in purgatory They have heavy weights on their back They're forced to look down on the ground on the ground in front of them are stories of examples of people who are humble So they reminded of humility for the however Me you know thousands of dozens of years They're forced to be in that level of purgatory as a reminder of ways to be humble now the punishment is designed to undo the sin Right so the punishment is not without well I guess in the inferno you would say that the punishment has meaning because it is related to the the setting sin of that person So they're you know they're related but it is meant purely to punish in whereas in hell whereas in the purgatory It is meant to correct.

Yes, that is correct So there there is meaning to the punishment it is not and this is again a temporary state for the yeah Because there's an out you can get out of it. Yes by learning lesson. They will they are guaranteed to get out of it one day one of the one of the Pre purgatory circles is one for like the it's like the slothful, but it's a different kind of sloth But they're just like meandering in this one zone, but they are guaranteed to one day intermount purgatory It's just on them for when they actually get there. So yeah Everyone who's here will eventually ascend this mountain and then at the top of the mountain is where we get that transition to I wonder if the prideful circle is really tough because when you finally beat it you're like, oh, yes Oh Get plug in the back of the line up your raft one goes up to yeah I wonder there's like just slides down the mountain when you feel good about yourself as you make your way up You know don't talk about that, but you have to read between the lines on one Okay, so coming out of the circle the prideful we enter into the circle of the indias We are in canto 13 for the none of you falling along Thomas is there a ranking Does these circles mean like are one are they worse than others go worse as we will get to the structure of purgatory?

I mean I'm planning for this episode But probably three episodes from now we'll get to it But the structure of purgatory is a thing that virtual cover literally halfway through the book So instead of Dante putting this in place that is reasonable is covered in Contos 17 which is the middle all the books are well in front of us 34 canto's correct because there's the one at the beginning and 33 in hell Then the other two books are 33 can'tos so in the middle is canto 17 we get the structure of purgatory Which we will never get to so can't oh 13 we exit the circle the proud we get to the circle of the nvs when you all hear the word envy What is the word that what does that mean? What does it mean? It's a we try to talk what are you? I'm trying to talk.

I was interrupting You're always doing the wrong thing. Um, okay, so I think with Envy yeah, coveting what someone else has wanting wanting what they have desiring their thing to be your thing And I think there's an added connotation of damage to that person. I don't want to just have it also I want them to not have it any To a medic desire I want to win between the two of us if he's got a Ferrari. I want the Ferrari and I want him to have my full though It's exactly right so it's not there is the side of it wanting a thing, but it's more than that It's not only wanting the thing but someone else to not have the thing right there's a punch melon I thought about René Girard a lot through this section so I hope your episodes Graham have been very They've rebounded around my mind quite a bit so all these definitions are great.

We have said elsewhere that Dante is Thomas Aquinas put diverse so to quote Aquinas on the matter envy is sorrow for another's good Envy is sorrow for another's good in the section Dante will meet someone who so it's not you know She wasn't envious of a thing that someone got she was happy that a relative of hers was killed in combat She didn't like this guy. She sees him get killed. She feels like happy that that happened Yeah, right and then that was not condems the wrong word But that is the reason that she is in purgatory. She I guess that was joy and another misfortune It's like the inverse of the definition we just read is that like shouting Freuda?

Shout out for it is the same thing making me feel pleasure at your pain. Isn't that the phone from have nuke you? I should definitely never listen to okay, so the those who are in You all keep using this phrase of that is so metal so I'm going to read a thing And I would like you to tell me if that is so metal are you prepared? Oh, can you hear me is there can you know the bell and ring the bell if it's metal?

It's pretty yeah, I mean The metallic scales pretty rigid if I had an electric guitar I'd be doing that instead of ringing this bell But last year I'm gonna raise session I will I don't know Well, it's made of metal so okay, we're ready. Okay, so a thing you might be wondering is what is the punishment or what is the consequence for those who are Nvs in life what happens to them and as the sunshine never benefits the vision orphan So the light of heaven withheld its bounty from the spirits here whose eyelids were all sutured through and sewn shut with an iron wire as Hunter seal the wild Hawks eye to train him to be tame and rest unruffled Right I'm just thinking like they was so the eyes of no they would just put little hoods on them on the Falcons apparently This says who's I was we're all sutured through and shown and so shut the nine wire as oh that's hunter sealed up Wild Hawks eye so it says oh man a falconer would sow them shut into the hawk learn to take food at his hands alone So geez, so they are their eyes are so shut so they were people who would look out and either desire something up someone or desire harm Done to them, so they're not looking for you. They yes exactly for as long as they're in this level They also are wearing a humble horse of course here They were covered all propped back to bear each other up while everyone was propped against the wall So they don't get to wear fancy clothes. They don't even really get to stand on their own They're dependent on everyone around them and the wall that's right next to them So it's all about so instead of wanting their own good at the expense of others They want the good of everyone else because it means they're good too.

Yeah, sure. They're all wailing out for each other They'll say elsewhere that they also spend essentially all this time crying To my left-worth shades of Jordan prayer his cheeks were glistening with the tears They press through the horrible scenes and there is more that goes on so they it's a time. Yeah, I've repentance right they are Yes in sorrow, but they also have to experience the inability to be envious Thomas is there any scene in any of these cantos where a soil has done has finished and it comes down is like good job You're done come on up. We haven't seen that yet.

I actually don't know what that will be I don't know if that will come up later. So that's a good question something to keep in mind We do we see Dante traversing between each of those up and there's a we'll get to it I guess we're I didn't find that I don't know people at home who love the purgatory I didn't see a lot that was awesome about the section on the so I'm gonna move pretty quickly to the raffle section But in the raffle section There's this like acknowledgement of this is as far as the punishment zone is here are the steps that lead to the next It's like everyone who's there knows what the next step is but are you talking about moving between levels or escaping purgatory? I'm just wondering when you learn your lesson right like when you're all cried out when do you learn a lesson that you need other people And you shouldn't be so envious when if you want is your soul perched? We haven't seen it yet.

We do. Oh make sure to bring it up because they're you know Seeing that these are souls that are still in the process you get these moments of like they're not perfect yet And so the person I talked about before is named Sappia she has this great moment at the beginning where Dante's asking who hears from Italy and she gets it's like really Pius responsive what you mean to say is which of these sojourners once traveled in Italy because they're not Citizens of Italy more trip is like really pious like awesome response But then later tries to like get a dig in at Dante for his family not being very like high up in this one direction Not quite learned a lesson like their parts of it where it's like oh yeah, she's like you know she's getting there But then you hear the other part and you're like oh she's not she's a bit of a toot still Yeah, but she's not heaven yet and that's you know when people say I think people say is that you know the parody so is really boring I wonder if it's because they're I don't know they're all giving the right answers the entire time I don't know. Yeah, I remember the very so I think I remember I'm not suddenly chosen But I think when a soul leaves the mountain of purgatory go to heaven It's like a cannon fire goes boom like reverberates over the whole mountain. It's like a shot fire this guy I think I remember that we'll get there at the end of this one I guess because the end of purgatory will meet Beatrice Which is cool that'll be the first time she's brought in And I know there's there so yes, we get through the levels of with seven levels of purgatory But there's also like a an earthly paradise at the top I think that the garden knows even if I remember correctly but in many moons we should get there Okay, so that is the section on in the there's more I could read but I'm not going to because I don't want to okay So I'm gonna do it cuz I don't feel like it.

I think I did for the other episodes is to talk about how each sin has You'll see this translated as either daughters of a sin or children of a sin I'm probably gonna go ahead and call them children So in the capital sins aren't necessarily sins in and of themselves They are bad and these obviously bad but what makes it capital is that it gives birth to other sins So a grouping of sins can be all called in the altogether So I will this is also from Aquinas who again Dante is pulling essentially all this from The daughters Assigned by Gregory who we of course didn't actually get to but was like an important character in the Pastoral theology in the classical tradition. He's like important in that sounds like a great guy Yeah, you know, I mean in fact at the point you get the name of the greatest test attached to the end you've done something right So that the children of envy are hatred tail bearing Detraction joy at our neighbors misfortune and grief for his prosperity tail bearing. Yeah, like awesome. Oh, that was like I can't give me more details or whatever.

No, it's not that kind of tail bearing. So I'm sorry So that is it for envy. We will leave it at that Okay, we move on then to the circle of the wrathful when you hear wrath. What is wrath?

What does that mean? I think of Achilles you are sunk in anger so far that it rots the vessel It's just like seeing read where the reason has been almost usurped by either appetites or spirit you've yeah, you've You've abandoned some higher part of your the better angels of your nature to steal a Lincoln phrase No, I like that you're bringing this in. Yeah, so you'll some instead of seeing so be steel right? Yes, the reason we're saying wrath instead of anger is that anger can have a positive attribute to it, right?

I appreciate you all pulling on the threat of you know, the wrath would put it It's like a degrading in some way you have lost You know if reason is a thing that separates man from beast to throw out your reason over passion is to want to be more Be sure so I think that's all you're playing on that professional you are professionals indeed anger is a desire for vengeance is one quote from Aquinas on that And then just on this topic of whether anger is okay He does angry without cause shall be in danger But he does angry with cause shall not be in danger for without anger teaching will be useless judgments unstable crimes unchecked That's interesting for without anger teaching will be useless judgments unstable crimes unchecked So anger has a has a utility yes again, and it can be overdone overstated I I don't know if you all know people who will call what they have a holy anger even though it's really just you know vindictive Yeah, there's a place for that feeling but it is not you know We were not sitting around saying anger is what separates man from beast right like that Well, last podcast we were talking about the the poetry of the old No, it was during the q&a poetry of the old King James Yes, and doesn't got at some point in the looking James talk Is he talk about having the vengeance of a red right hand isn't that in the old King James? That's right. So it's like the anger of some school vengeance not vengeance, but the holy anger We gotta make that heavy metal down During the play got as you would just been there. Oh, yeah I would have to hand off responsibility when you guys know where you could just be can I be the one who says one of my episode is metal?

That seems like a wonderful anyway, okay So we move into the circle of the wrathful so these are people with yeah desire for vengeance is one of the other names for that That kind of has a lamest of punishments that we've come across so far So if we had the you know exceedingly metal Punishment in the circle the envious of having like their eyes knit together which is crazy the wrathful have to like stand around in like a really Heavy mist for a while and it's it kind of irritating. Yeah, yeah, they're not like bit by something or like pretty something It's like a fog really thick fog. I wonder if it's if the important thing There's the symbolism that they kind of lose sight of the reality like they're so cloud cloud over my anger also It's yeah mildly irritating. It's like a kissy my shoes.

Can't tell shoelaces You can't fight the fog you can't like lash out and like beat the crap out of the fog bumped into that guy a little earlier Really? convenient Yeah, I mean, yeah, and this is also where one of the go not goes what are they called shades I think they call them here acknowledges like the confined space where they're stuck in so there's also that as part of the punishment They can't go anywhere. They can't escape the fog. I guess is what I'm trying to say But yeah, you know compared to Johnny rocks on your back or having your eyes don't shut It's just kind of like really I think Dante like running out of ideas at this point He's like oh no, they know he saw it.

I'm sorry. What I mean to say is that he wrote everything down as he saw it Yeah, they call it smoke like this and more about that. Okay, so while he's here. He meets a fellow What I just had the image of that circle of wrath being a Dave Matthews band festival day.

There's just a lot of smoke It's all kind of foggy. That's all there's to it. Crap So in this circle of the wrathful Dante meets a fellow named mark and Mark is a made up fellow. I do believe if I'm wrong, please write me lots of angry emails and they you know, they're just having a pleasant chat and this will kind of lead us into a topic that will read a couple quotes from to kind of I will read quotes get responses and then we'll continue on through because this will kind of be our guiding Image that's continued across three of these cantos So I guess I'll just read from here and then we can react and continue Okay, so Dante is talking with mark and he has the question of Like this but pray Dante says show me the cause of all the sin Dante's reflecting on the world and all the problems that are in it Show me the cause of this of all this and that I may see it and reveal it for some blame the stars Some fortune here below and then he mark let out a deep sigh that sorrows rung into a groan My brother he again mark began the world is blind and it has been your home You living man attribute to the sky the causes of all things as if they moved ever and only by necessity That would destroy the freedom of your will now Nor would it then be just a deal out joy for doing well or well for doing ill the heavens give your movements their first nudge not all your movements But let's grant that to still light is given that you may freely judge and choose the good or evil and should free well Grow weary in the first battles with the stars foster it well It will win the day you men like subject to that one who made you free a greater force a better nature Who formed your minds without the planets aid thus if this present world has gone to skew look to yourselves in yourselves lies the cause He goes on so the stars gave you a nudge or the universe gives you a nudge but in the end you only got yourself to play We I don't know if we ever covered this in the spheres when we talked about way back in the day But even medieval church folks believed kind of in astrology that when a certain planet was in the sky It was wielding certain influence over men like what we don't work lunatic right a moon rings you wandering of the mind And so I think that's crazy interesting Especially because I literally just had a conversation with this about this with another teacher and they're reading a book where it talked about the four Weirdly enough the four what do they call those character attributes melancholy?

Temperaments the four temperaments so I think there's another word for it the four humors for humors the you know melancholy sanguine That sort of thing like mad and the book was like that's the way You're made and really the church needs all kinds and the teacher was like I'm wrong Are you supposed to like push against the humors if you're wise and resist the influence of those humors? Oh interesting like that's your natural bent but wise men can bring against it And this is that the universe gives you a nudge but you are responsible for your own actions like you're in the end You have no one but the blame but your own will and you are beholden to God And so if you are a sanguine person figure it out. Yeah, actually sing was pretty good You know you can be over optimistic there are problems with all four and you're prone to anger we talked to this forever Go I think the answer was called it was either the fourth no is the end your gram one of our episodes But the goal is it so in locating the humors as like literal parts of your body to say I have an excess of I think blood for sanguine Like you're actually supposed to get less blood Do you know I mean like blood is what we take it out of you? There's something to that of you actually supposed to have that balance between all four of them I would like to point out this podcast is not medical advice anyway Okay, so that's helpful so what is so Marcus trying to mark is trying to say that you know people want to blame Someone else for the reasons that they do things but in fact, there's a free well There's a choice in all things.

Yes, we are pushed in certain ways by the chance of our birth by our families by our cities By any of those things but ultimately we have a free well We have a choice to do whatever we want I guess is way with that I was just I didn't plan this because I you know we figure out the topic when we come here Does this intersect at all with our episode last week on Camus? Anything come to mind when you were here in that the world is not a US certain way and Is this a response to what we talked what we read through last week or is it actually agree with it? Of doesn't that in the end you own it? Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't see that this Yeah, I think this can just be another element of the conversation.

I don't know that negates it or Yeah, I wonder if I wonder how the conversation the great conversation. Well, don't you feel like most modern people would reject the idea of Outside. Yeah. Yeah, there's influences of the spheres the planets.

You know, it's like there's there's there are astrologers They're the moves who like are like I think are modern. I think the new form of this is genetics or to say I am I was just listening to it who is it between it was um There's the redeemer Presbyterian guy Tim Keller and I can't remember. He was debating the yes It's just a say her argument was all around there is no free will it's all an illusion were born a certain way We're reacting automatically to everything. I think that is not an uncommon opinion people hold I agree, but it wouldn't be the stars in the yeah, it would be you're a move somewhere RNN your it's your candy flow phaser Tell them yours whatever chemicals in your body.

Yes, and that determines everything about how I am your chlorophyll You're yep, that's how I eat is through sunlight. It's really my favorite. Okay, um, so that's a mark starts there He's is an interesting metaphor which I want to present to you all and get your all slots Okay, so you just have the celebration or I don't know acknowledgement of free. Well and how important it is now I shall scout the truth of this for you directly from him Who's hand who cherished her before she came to be the simple soul comes forth?

Just like a little baby girl who cries and laughs and doesn't know a thing save that moved by her maker by her joy She willingly turns to all that makes her sing Incently she tastes the saver of some lesser good than chases it deceived unless some rain or guide directs the love But the rain it is needful. We have law for the guide kings who might at least discern the towers of the true city from afar And then he goes on from there He's using a metaphor of it's a little girl But a child as the example of what it is for a soul to exist in this world The soul is drawn toward different things by the force of love by attraction to things that are in this world Any any response or reaction to that in thinking of like the nature of souls? I don't think innocent child is one that I think of very often maybe you do it reminds me of words worth Ode to intimations of immortality where he has a poem saying that our souls are like little babies And as we grow older we kind of get we forget the we forget heaven where we've come from we forget the sort of Joy that we that we come from we kind of get mired in the in the adult life and we get these little small glimpses of joy Which is the romantic sort of feeling but I feel similar to that But what was this part? Can you repeat the part about kings?

What was that about? Yeah? for so so The soul sort of falls in love as a soul gets propelled on by love It needs to be corrected a little bit and starts being attracted to things and going after them for the rain It is needful We have law for the guide kings who might at least discern the towers of the true city from afar heaven right laws We have but who puts them to the proof? Oh He goes on from there.

He's still have a condemnation of kings in a second But what he's saying is using the image of the soul as child Mm-hmm is to say that that soul the child must grow up But without fetters the child will wander whichever direction it wants what it needs is a guide it needs limits to those Love so is his argument that the government job is to provide sort of Bumper bumpers on the bowling alley like some sort of guide so that the soul can reach heaven. Yeah, there's more here that we don't I'll just give an overview He will mark will give a condemnation of the intimacy between church and state that the church has been corrupted by its intimacy with the state Mm-hmm. So what he views as to what should be two separate forces that are keeping each other honest the church and the state I've instead been united and there's no more checker balance between the two. I guess the way to say it so Yes laws are there to help in the correct growth information of the soul But that's both the church and the state that are accomplishing This ties in with your episode grammar a while ago on governments right is government only to allow us to do things safely Or is it to actually restore a certain kind of human community?

Not a clear that has like a higher view of what government can do. Yeah, or marks just per marks going to be disappointed if he keeps I think I want to say he predates Dante by a hundred years. They talk about that at some point So it's just funny because mark back in my day Yes, it's kind of intended as this like Dante's talking with someone from the good old days, right? And and still mark is like no, there's huge corruption in when I'm living these are the things that are wrong There is no good old day.

I guess as though is a way to put that or there was always a member need a reform, right? Just the other thing that strikes me with this metaphor of the soul is little child is it's not introducing off the bat Anything that I often hear is an idea of like well since we're all sinners or since we can't be perfect There's like kind of no reason to try to be perfect is maybe one way to put that But to remove sin is your centering understanding of like what your soul is I'm putting more on the hook like you actually have to train your soul to want the right things Just to say I want this therefore I'm going after it is a childish view to lay on top of that actually to train What my desires are I think it's important again? We only ever talk about same for topics over and over again But that's just something that strikes me by pointing to our soul as a child not just ourselves You want to I was just never in conversation I had with a friend once and I think she was kind of a laps Christian And she's like I tried to the Christian life But God was never helping me so I stopped and that I was just thinking of a child like reaching up toward the cookie jar being like no One's stopping me and no one's somebody stop me. It's just it seems kind of juvenile at the time Yes, that's what I'm not reading the sections there parts in here We're down things really highly of you know the pre-christians the like the pagans is it The first part yeah, but the first part was pagans like he speaks really highly of them because they figured out stuff that What's right?

I would say it should be impossible to figure out but reason actually got them further than people realize they can get And so that's why I appreciate this from the section from mark on you know kanto 16 humans are responsible for their actions Crap. I know it's not enough to just say that we're simple. It's no like you will face God for the decisions you make one day Anything else before moving on from there? So what's what I bring that up that will start us in a centering metaphor of love as the organization of purgatory Which will be developed more in kanto 17 and we'll talk a little bit in kanto 18 So what circle was marking rath what why was mark tik chis doffy?

I don't remember he like killed some oh, okay He stabbed a guy. It's no big deal Oh, he uh, yeah, I think that's like I think he did actually kill someone He um he has his part where he talks about like he's from like the again the good old days when like men cared about honor Not like you are now when the bow string is on slack or something. It's like awesome jazz That he gets it done today. It's really funny I was a long part of the call me mark.

I knew the world and loved that courtly valor for which each man now lets his bow fall slack Pistles a don man. That's a good one. That's a good one, but that's mark Uh, okay, so that gets us through to kanto 17 So okay, so each of the books is 33 kanto's long the very middle of each kanto is kanto 17 That's how math works 16 on each side. Um kanto 17 from the inferno is that an important one?

I could check I remember that they kind of give the basic structure of it in kanto 11 I believe but i'll check 17 Or if that comes later, I can find out real fast here. Sorry, I probably should have prepped you on that one. Sorry Um, so in kanto 17, we're still seeing the punishment of wrath which again is like a thick smoke which like hurts Um, you know trapped in the fog so thick upon the hills Um, uh, he goes on to talk about it more but it's not super interesting. Um, okay, so what is the organization of purgatory?

Um, it's mountain. It is a mountain. Um, I will actually start by reading this from the notes. No, we'll go through here Um, so kanto 16 kicked us off with the importance of love as what draws a person to Um, uh, what they desire what they go after even if it's bad Uh, not the creator nor singliss is Virgil talking to Dante in kanto 17 Not the creator nor single creature as you know ever existed without love The soul's love or the love that comes by nature The natural love is just and cannot rove The soul's love strays if it desires what's wrong or loves with too much strength or not enough When toward its prime good it has led a right and keeps good measure in the second goods It cannot be the cause of bad delight.

So when things are focused on god things are great When they get focused on these secondary goods things go bad One of my bookmarks to spell out which bodes poorly for the rest of our conversation Um, uh, I just read that part Uh, but when it twists to evil or does not race for a good for the uh, with the appropriate care of the potter finds rebellion in the pot Hence you can understand how love must be the seedbed where all virtuous deeds must grow With every act that warrants punishment Now then since by its logic love can't turn its glance from the well-being of the one who loves All things are shielded from self-hate And since you can't conceive yourself cut free from your first cause and standing on your own You cannot truly hate the deity There's a big statement which maybe is worth disagreeing with Love of your neighbor's loss remains alone if I've distinguished all the cases right In three ways in your clay this love is born This is a longer section. I apologize. We will talk about this after I finish For one man strives for excellence that he might put down his neighbor It is all he craves to bring him low who gloried in his height One fears the rising of another man fears to lose favor honor power and fame And gloomily learns to love to see him fail And the last seething under suffered harm gluts himself with vindictiveness and brings evil upon another by his arm So we've just covered our three levels that we've gone through so far We have the prideful we have the envious we have the wrathful So he's he's So what joins them all together is a hatred of the other Yes, all right violence towards the other Let me I'll keep going with it The this threefold love they mourn for in those rings below This wait the threefold love they mourn for they mourn for in those rings below Now and understand the other two the love which Though its order has been corrupted pursues the good Each soul can dimly see the one good that will lay the heart at rest This it desires and struggles valiantly to join with it If in this loving quest you are too slowly drawn to see to win this cornice here after fit penitence punishes you Other good things there are not the good being but not a blessed joy the root of all good things under fruition The love that yields itself too much to these is mourned for in the three circles toward the top But why there are three circles you may please discover on your own so here I am to stop So what is he just said I'm going to read from Dr. Esselin who is very helpful with his notes The what was um, did you look up kanto 17?

Yeah, well if we count the first intro kanto then it would be kanto 18 And it's it doesn't make some difference kanto 16 17 and 18 are all describing the division between the sins of what I believe are the sins of the appetites And the will so sins of incontinence and violence from the sins of the intellect which is the lower health after the great barrier waterfall So it's not describing the actual structure the structure of hell is kind of described Earlier in book 11, but it is a big division in hell between Before getting to the sins of the intellect which makes up a huge portion of the book is there pandemonium in don't No, that comes with mill what's so is the city there's a city this new city who this? Yeah, okay, so um to summarize what was a longer section in don't a there great is very tickled pink by his own jokes It's always one of my favorite parts of this podcast. Um, uh, we are naturally drawn to certain things Uh wait for it thus in the first three rings of purgatory the sinners purge a love that in itself is evil because it is directed at an evil object While in the upper three rings they purge a love that in itself is good But that in their own lives was immodarately or disorderly disorderedly pursued So this is still a love when it's loving the wrong thing. Yes, it is still love.

Mm. That's um, and this is an acquaintance thing of the thing What draws us toward anything the reason did you eat the donut this episode or last episode? You ate the donut because you loved the idea of the taste of the or the I would like my wife to know that I did not eat any donuts Does she watch on youtube or does she watch? I'm gonna wear the other so um what the reason that you went um toward the donut was that you either desired the taste of Legally how about that?

I'll say there's somebody in green on floats around donut around the YouTube you can see me doing air quotes because it's definitely not real Um, so it was a love either of the taste of that donut or the desire of being full is what motivated your action to grab it You know pick up and eat it all motion Um towards something else is determined by a love a desire for union is how a coin is what talk about you and say that I'm bound by the dopamine and sugar Some people would say that right of and worth I determined sure and for all I do to make fun of that view I do say that like the best thing for my health is when I throw out food in my house So that I don't have the option of eating that food I was gonna take these donuts home and now I don't feel like I'm going to do your game No, your wife is doubly angry because you're not only young donuts but she doesn't get anything seriously I'll bring home and talk about that. Yeah, I'll freeze them. What? Why would you freeze them donut later?

You donut now what is your ice cream one day? Go on. Donuts. Donut.

What is your no good talk? Okay, so what so the the point that virgill is making a longer form and that dr Asselin makes a much shorter and more concise form. Um the first three Circles that we've already covered are examples of love for a bad thing So the prideful person has love of self which is bad The envious person has desire has love of destruction of others or to have what another has which is an evil love And then that's followed by wrath desire for vengeance So it is it's love for again an evil thing those loves must be removed I guess is the way to say that you must not love an evil thing The removed redirected is there a difference? I think the redirection motif will you'll see more in the top three again You've referenced the less being the top of the purgatory and redirection is probably the right term for that So when it's when it's these loves it's just gotta get rid of them throughout like a good form What's a good form of envy?

Yeah, right? So um the maybe the thing you're pulling on is to say that they are not made to be Abothetic they're not made to be without emotion that is true. They're still made to be Loving I guess my question is if purgatory can also be seen as like a manual for us in the here now dealing with sin What do you say to do? Well?

What do you tell the person who is envious to do? Besides we're putting rock on their shoulders and looking around that's pride The not looking out on others so in our in a modern context if you are on like if student comes to you and is like mr Oh like so it's got a on the test and I just wish they fail and I got an A. Yeah, what would you say? Let me start by answering one.

I was thinking about it doesn't know it's okay But like to the person who spends all their time on social media following the rich and the famous That they wish that they had that or that they follow the people who are less popular than they are so they can revel in house superior There are two them deleting social media is not a bad first step Is that like that would be one of closing ones eyes in the same way that I've talked in your test example to say What concern is it to you? What another person makes on a test? Did you were you faithful in studying as much as you could have did you do all the work that was necessary for this work? Just so often yeah to be focused on the wrong thing.

It's not the answer I wanted I wanted you to tell me I was good and they were exactly right now But maybe both of you are good if they have gifts that you don't like and you have to be okay with that But you also get that they don't have but anyway, Graham you're gonna accept your stupidity I'm sorry. I meant that to be more pointy that you what would mark say mark would say you earn it kiddo Right when your universe nudged you a little bit, but you were laser by predisposition that doesn't Right So yes, so what are those lower loves that must simply be removed or pride in being a wrath We will talk briefly about sloth which is this middle Level which acts as a bridge between the two so if the bottom three are loves that need to be removed The top three are loves that need to be redirected the middle one is that love needs to be generated love needs to be present for the movement into Averus gluttony and the last are the ones that so the slothful are people who just can't fire up the old Love just weren't super engaged Yeah, we've talked about a cd before which is the term that's being used here because that marso's problem Is loth yeah, let me see any step right yes, he does shoot people Sloth would probably be his problem is a lack of caring would probably be sloth right now like this cd and his spiritual amalays And i'm trying to look up the definition, but sloth is not merely like a lack of action. It's a it's a despair of Good, it's just it's like a despair with regard to the things of god It's like not it's not worth the time to devote one's life to god So it's more than just like what if it doesn't interest you yeah, that would be sloth also right It's what that sounds like I'm trying to find you guys only hear something fun. Yeah So we talked about Gregory the great earlier Yes, and i remember from talking about the eight deadly thoughts in seven deadly sins He was one of the You may have already mentioned this but he puts the seven deadly sins in order yes from most serious to least and they actually lead into each other He thought that the seven deadly sins were a progression and so here's the list pride envy anger sadness Averus gluttony unless she seems to reflect the exact Organization of purgatory purgatory.

He is following yeah, and um people are going through each level before they go to the next one So your pride must be pride has to be dealt with first before the rest of them work. I like that I think I forget which way he said it worked like the progression pride I'm thinking great at myself leads to envy when someone else ends up being greater leads to anger when I can't have the thing that they have leads to sadness after I sort of deal with my anger leads to gathering a whole bunch of things make me feel better leads to gluttony over consumption Like he thought that it was a one sin led to the other I'm not sure if it went the other way from starting from lust and eventually ended in pride but I thought i went envy anger I wanted what somebody else had I couldn't have it and therefore I get angry with myself in the world into them That's how the order is here that it indeed starts which leads to rap right um No, I like that I also but I do wonder if in advising someone would you actually start the other way that like do you start with the furthest one out or can you actually get back to pride in the first place? I think he said you have to resolve them in at least Gregory I think say you have to resolve them in reverse order So you need to solve the lust before you can move on need to solve the pride or the the anger before you can resolve the envy before you can resolve the pride You got to stop what one other people have before we can deal with how you feel about yourself like that Um, I got a lot um and that's even in Thomas in Aquinas, which I keep quoting it's usually Aquinas quoting Gregory Which yeah is what Dante's pulling all this from so really thanks Gregory. Appreciate you.

He was the great. He was pretty great Um, what is Dante just copied him? I mean, hack Sloth is an oppressive sorrow which to it so weighs upon man's mind that he wants to do nothing An oppressive sorrow that makes me want to do nothing now the sorrow is always evil sometimes in itself sometimes in its effect Of course my students say chill Maybe no, I think chill. I think chill.

I think definitely the like ethos of chill is uh close to the sloth classical definition of It's actually really this is a this will be a topic for another time because i'm just trying to connect about like when you look at Like certain you would call them maybe moral behavior over time So like kids today drink less than they did 30 years ago who drink less than their parents 30 years before that Um people having less sex before marriage now than they were 30 years ago than they were 30 years before that like there are all these There are probably fewer children out of wedlock that one might not be true But there are certain like those things have so like bad things have gone down But I don't know if we would say that like more good things have been done over that time And I wonder if that's a reflection of cycles of different well just in this model of purgatory It's to say that like kind of those first three levels have been overcome Right, maybe there is some kind of like there's less bad being done But that's capped us off at the middle level which is sloth Um, and we haven't found a way to move past that to the higher things the actual acts of doing good things for god the kingdom Whatever or for one's life. Um to live a life that has a redeemed anyway. Yeah, um I'll have to think about that more, but that just made me sure they're all right. Seriously.

Uh, I mean they are I mean if that would be a um a proverb that gets on the old proverbial podcast because they're all right Yeah, probably not here Okay, so just to say where we are again, we have passed pride in being wrath all of you listeners have passed pride in being wrath by the Congrats you are freed from the sin you have untied the knot It's one of the images used early. Um, I think in the circle of the wrathful is to say that It's untying the knot of wrath of those cool image Um, which then leads us to sloth which we'll talk about very briefly and then we will eventually get to average gluttony and lust Um, and then sitting on top of that is the early paradise and a lot of cantos with Beatrice and then we will go into I don't know I don't know if you want to go on paradise, but your own purgatory purgatory has been I want to everyone should read it um, okay, so um sloth we just defined um Uh, uh, a reference this so, uh, I guess it was Gregory then Gregory wrote down the seven Gregory was combining evagreces eight thoughts into seven And he took um, uh sloth which is like he took inaction plus despair and combined those into a CDO That's how you get seven is that what used to be two things because there were eight deadly thoughts become seven It's sloth that combines them really I thought it was combining venglory and pride I'm gonna roll those two again in in don't this is from my earlier one on um pride don't take calls it venglory He doesn't call it pride. Okay. Um, so at least for Aquinas when Aquinas is doing the seven He's for sure combining those two into the one idea of a CDO I forget venglory is just a much more fun word than pride.

Yes. I want to say are different things though Yeah, I think pride might be a child of anglory. I have to go back and listen, but um venglory is like what I feel when I like beat students at kickball As a grown man. Yeah, that's true.

Venglory is wanting and desiring glory from others when you want everyone else to think you're good pride is thinking i'm good And if they don't see it, they're all idiots. Yeah, um, huh, okay So I didn't read this for indy so i'll just say this now the children of I'm sorry the children of anger Um are quarrelling swelling of the mind a clamor indignation and blasphemy those are the children of anger So again, those are things to look for in yourself to say do I see these those would point to the presence of a capital vice of anger or wrath Bloss me because you just want to like stick to god. It's a desire for vengeance from god would be blessed me. Bless me is reckoned.

Um, It's also a blessing also has this work. It's also a daughter of pride according to Aquinas. Um, there you go They pop over this. That's what he's saying.

Sorry. Um, is it or he puts it in a different list as a thing he's saying? Whatever I'm not gonna go into that. Um, the children of sloth are um Malice spite faint hard faint heartedness despair sluggett sluggishness in regard to the commandments wandering of the mind after unlawful things That is sloth Malice spite faint heartedness despair sluggishness in regards to the commandments wandering of the mind after unlawful things Oh my word like like together a list of your average american today's You just live that house on fire.

Yeah, I'm not really thinking about it. Yeah, I mean, I just shot a man I don't care about it with that. Okay, okay. That's connected to our last week.

I was so you should listen to that Yeah, I think you could say he was suffering from despair That's it. Um, yeah, slot. Yeah, I think it's maybe a JDA too if you're Italian. I don't really know how this works.

Um, okay, um, I I only have a couple minutes. What what if you were to like want to fix sloth? What would you do? Make him run?

I think I think I'm on the field the advice given by a vagus was like keep working at a buckle like you work hard And that determined effort will eventually show you that change is possible and then that will hopefully lift you from despair Drop and give me 20 discipline is freedom. Um, I mean, you're not wrong actually your first answer was 100 Correctly run that he lapsed. That's all they do. Seriously?

That's that no way lap. Yeah, for sure And they all like um But it's like this hilarious chapter so we're only introduced to this one abbot I think he's abbot of zino is what the guy's name or title is I guess um, so like I'm just imagining They're all a bunch of like priests and like giant robes like running around doing laps the entire time and they're all like Encouraging each other so they're all like, you know, you know, you got some overseeing them Is there like someone making sure they're doing their job like a little angel and a golf cart with a whistle or anything? I wish I'd make this a better chapter. Um, they don't go into that but they do have this part so um, uh, so you know Don't just kind of like walking along he's trying to have some like deep thought and then all of a sudden he just hears It's like rumbling behind him and he turns around and he just like this wall of jogging priest I mean I want to think of it as a wall of jogging priest but uh, uh, uh, so they you know, he's having this like, you know Those men who's reason Those men who's who's recent plump the death of wisdom remarked upon this in liberty bequeathing moral science to the world So let's conceive that he goes into this like, you know, Beatrice is great and then um, uh, uh, He just suddenly hears this straightaway passed us on the ring They swept for that great throng of spirits ever raced and the front runner shouted as they wept Mary ran to the hill country and haste To conquer lorita cesar slash marsay then ran to bend the enemy's neck in spain he goes on It's just they're all shouting out these, you know examples of industry.

Yeah, uh, yeah I was talking more about industry. That's probably the right phrase for it. Come on. Come on Don't let time slip away for lukewarm love zeal and well-doing makes grace green.

Uh, oh this is actually good one zeal and well-doing makes grace green again Awesome. That's good. Let's say read again zeal and well-doing makes great. I can't make grace green again So they're all just like like hauling blubber tubs around this big circle being like let's get to it boys That's we got it.

That's got to be like a motto gym class. It's like zeal and zeal and well-doing makes grace green again That'll be easy for everybody to chant as they run Do an Italian yeah Okay, studio be bend deep and far gratciir in verda people who know Italian That's right. That's right. Not the right line at all.

We gotta memorize that We gotta yell at our kids when they're jogging and right to rot okay like tempo nonci perda per poco amor Okay, studio day Ben far gratciir in verda is yours like a Italian slash English. Oh, that's cool. That's going to be the left side of the right. Um, it's been really That's a thing I really like but I just love this image of like so, you know We started from like their eyes or some shot which is like crazy to literally a bunch of old dudes just running around encouraging each other I have a couple of students that I think live their life Persistently just stoked out of their minds about things and I can imagine a couple of them Just being in this group.

Yeah, just run along. Let's go So the truth is if you are feeling slothful or that you have no moral improvement or why bother you literally have to go jogging Yes, this is this is way to go. Jysus way to go jogs actually pick up jogging. I gotta go jogging Let's all do this then maybe this is the answer to all of our problems.

Hey when we live on the farm We can go for early morning jogs. No, I'm well. Yes, but I'm also worried what they'll be like work to do around the farm also I'm not a school day. Oh, okay.

Good. Good. Good style. I'm just to say, you know, I appreciate that You know, we started this pretty grotesque image of you know people wailing and sackcloth their eyes don't shut too There's like a joy to this place that again is the point of purgatory It's the restoration of how mankind was supposed to be and we're starting to see pieces of that right now It's again a bunch of people running around enjoying the experience as much as they can encourage one another to reinvigorate the seal, right?

That's where we end with kanto 18. We'll go into 19 at some point in the future It's where you get into avarice and then we get into kind of this upper three rings which you just talked about but yeah What's the point purgatory is is arranged around love there are certain evil loves that need to be eradicated and then there just needs to be Feeling in general that must exist before it can be directed correctly. That's what we get into in the next three Kanto's And I would say yeah each of these levels have still shown a practical example of how to avoid these sins in the current day Adrian has said before this and these aren't just points to make to christian listeners I just I think anyone would like to say I think everyone would like to live without envy I think everyone would like to live without wrath without wrath. I think everyone would like to live a passionate life There are there's advice to that there are tools that can actually get us there and it's not just talk about these things But it's actually a physical change be it running be it choosing what your eyes are focused on Any number of things That's right.

That's what I got for today. Don't it anybody I'm gonna link you guys up with my Nike Run Club app that we all remember we used to do that you just rock my face Oh, it's okay. You rock mine these days. No, no, I don't do Nike run today.

What do you do? Is this embarrassing? Can I show this it's called zombies run? Oh Yeah, I backed my Kickstarter like seven years ago So I love it, but yeah, so if you want to join the classical stuff run club You know that guy is that classical stuff don't it if you want to kick the the vise of a cedia And you want to start working out with us link up with our Fitbits at no we don't I think although this is probably like the new page Is this trouble for running or is that for biking?

I don't know either. I thought about it on I don't have three thousand dollars. I just put an iPad don't go nowhere. I put an iPad on my bike and call it a day You can you know that's at the guys at classical stuff net you can find us at classical stuff on Twitter where I will Retweet things and like stuff you say what else can you find our old episodes at classical stuff net and please like and subscribe on iTunes leave a little review those are always fun and Patriot yes, we also have a patreon there are different tiers of subscriptions and that helps us keep doing this and maybe even grow to do other things We have monthly question and answers where we answer all your questions that you email in as well as you get to hear Our witty banter in between episodes.

We're actually sometimes we just continue talking about the thing we were talking about With less of an eye for creating wonderful content and more for like really drilling down on subjects sometimes which is fun Yeah, and so Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye