142: Purgatorybro

Hey everybody, and welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know we are a podcast. You probably should know that, because you came here when you're podcast app or something, or it stumbled onto us on the internet. And we're podcast all about classical stuff, old books, old art, old things.

And we are three educators in Austin, Texas. We work at a school called Veritas Academy. My name is AJ Hennemurg and I am joined by Thomas Fletcher-Magby. Hi.

And Graham-Grambles, Donaldson. So why is it called a podcast? Like, I don't know. Are we casting a pod?

Yes. That's the joke I always make. But what is a pod? Is it like the little unit of sound that we've created?

Podcast is a portmento, a combination of iPod and broadcast. Oh. Some sources have also suggested the background of them. How do you like that?

Portable on demand or pod? For some other reasons. Pee. Remember them?

I do. Here comes the group. Every day is a new day. I'm playing full full of every breath, watch it.

Keep going. Was that here comes the boom? Right here now. I don't know.

How do you like me now? Here comes the boom. Payable. Yeah.

OK. Podcast also used to be called audio blogs. So if that makes you feel better about yourself, you go to the audio blogger. I don't like that at all.

I don't know if that on a business guard because he's been saying it. All right, well this has been a fun aside. Oh, I'm Graham. Yeah, he's Graham.

This has been a fun little aside. And today we are talking about purgatory, specifically lust and gluttony. All the fun ones. All the big ones.

There's some really fun stuff in the fun ones. Probably not a fun one. Probably not a fun one. Yeah, not a fun one.

But hey, like gluttony, average and lust. Hey, give me this coming. Oh, so gluttony is coming up. Those are the three fun ones.

I hope it's the last one. Nope. Thanks for coming. No, I said it was gluttony.

I was like, oh, thanks for coming. Yeah, I mean, thanks for gluttony. Then Christmas is average. Oh, there you go.

Oh, there you go. What's the last one? OK, this has been unfortunate. OK, there's one for each.

Of course, hang on. That's right. OK, so we are going to be continuing with the purgatory. So we will get through the last three circles in purgatory.

So that gets us to the top of the mountain. There are still, I think, six canto, canty, whatever for you, Italian listeners. After that, so we will finish up with those at some point. Then we forget all about it, right?

Oh, that actually happened. That'll pass through the river that left. Left. Lefty.

That happens later, but we're not going to get there today. Oh, OK. So we'll get through average gluttony and lust today. Hopefully I always start optimistic and then we'll see how far we actually get through it.

But where have we been so far? There was a bunch of stuff that happened at the beginning before they get to the mountain. Then there are some steps that are pretty cool that I did an episode on because why not? Then there are three circles, like the first three circles of purgatory.

That's pride, envy, and wrath. You don't remember what the punishment's were for pride, envy, and wrath. Envy to you all tied together. You're like still on each other, right?

Yeah. You're going to lean on each other. You're going to lean on each other. I mean, the best part, the best part is debatable.

They have their eyes, some shut. And then they're also dressed in like sackcloth and they have to lean on each other. Not strong. Don't be afraid.

Don't you have to stare at the ground and read stories and people who are awesome? Yeah, but then they'll be all rocking the rack the whole time. Was that pride? Wrath was the other one?

Pride, envy, and then wrath. What happens to the wrathful? This was the only one. They have to run.

No, that's loth. It's like send greeting cards to each other. They have to feel better about it. No.

The wrathful have an annoying fog. Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right.

That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.

That's right. That's right. You have to beat it and eventually be like, I'm totally chill with this fog. I am the fog.

Wow. This is a little bit of a horror movie where mystical people was. AJ is the faculty sponsor of the bad movie club if you can't tell for this collection. This week we watched one on a horse that plays football.

Okay. This is a good movie, trying to say. He did win, he did super-ball. Wow.

What? That's incredible. Was he a wring. What did he take that horse?

He was a dog that was right. Don't get a dog. It was an equine of some sort and he kicked those terrible things. So we go from Pride and be in Wrath and then sloth is the middle list of the you seven.

Because that's number four, another seven. That's where they have to run around and they have encouraging messages and yell to everyone and we met a priest who was there. So Thomas, your podcast inspired me. And I killed you not when I came home from from recording that podcast I bought a pair of running shoes because I've been waiting to do it because my running shoes are falling apart and today I went for a joke.

I'm ready to go well I'm glad you went on that run. I got some raff But let's lots and I'm sorry and also I've been reading Jocko's book. What is it discipline? Yeah, oh man makes me feel bad about myself.

Do you follow him on Instagram? Do you have an Instagram actually? No, I don't Instagram I do but I don't I don't have my phone so I'm never on anymore He just basically posts pictures of like him waking up at fourth in the morning It's a picture of his watch at 430 or 432 or whatever every day and then the workout he does and it's Hard flex on all your followers. No, he's just hard flex on everybody.

He's like a blast furnace of the human Okay, so that was the first four circles. We'll get through the last three today Hopefully pride and be rap sloth is where we've been we talked about this last time that purgatory is split up There's like an organization of the whole thing that the first three levels are loves that have to be eliminated So the love of self and pride the love of destruction of others or the or the love of self gain and envy and the love of destruction with Raff So there's three need to be eliminated sloth is this bridge between the two level the two groupings where love needs to be stirred up That's why they're running around to in light in them to you know life and in the top three are loves that need to be put in the Right place so they are love of things that are good in and of themselves, but the love is excessive would be a way to that That's the average yeah, I was gluttony and lost all three are love of things that are good But they're they are loved too much. There's actually an interesting example that in last which will you know again Hopefully get to the end of this my other important takeaway from the last episode is that my my wife stayed abroad in Italy for six months She's I think she's a minor in Italian. She says my Italian reading is abysmal I believe that was the exact word that she used so if you remember I tried to read a thing in Italian apparently it was horrible So apologies to anyone I insulted by doing that reading.

I apologize to you. Okay, so we pick up after the circle of the slothful So we see all the people running around they're encouraging each other and It ain't in numbers inferno whenever something like dramatic happens what's not a response he generally passes out So he takes a nap in camp in 19. That's his response. Yes, so you know part of it is probably seeing all these people You know running around so much the other part I haven't talked about this much because it's a detail and there's a lot going on These in this book is that you can't progress in purgatory at night They're different descriptions of like why throughout but essentially like the desire to move on just stops and so you wherever you are You just sit down and talk to me.

Yeah, so everyone has to take a nap Doc and foggy you're not gonna make me go. No steps a day. I right now. Can you actually just can I be right on Take for the rest of this time?

It's just a what is that Boston? I thought Boston is that what you're going for there? Yeah, you're not impressed Well, I'm just saying it's dark out now. We're still podcasting.

Yeah, tell me about it So you to tell us to go home, and so he can't progress at night Which is an entire time so he sits down and takes a nap he has a dream and in this dream. He is approached by the siren or She's she starts off as the siren, but you know a siren. It's like a category. Don't taste like what I'm girl You look a real attractive over there actually kind of what is a siren.

What is the siren? They they are half women half bird they have bird bodies with the heads of women They sing on an island and they track all the sailors and the sailors swim over and then they you I think that you I thought you just start I think that you want to listen to their song. Yes, they attract people that you want to listen to them Is there anything I was singing earlier are you this iron? I'm listening to your sound please don't eat us So this might strike you as strange that in purgatory Dante is having a vision of a siren Yeah, there's a thing that is kind of strange It's not really explained as to well they claim the meaning of the siren in a second We'll get to but not like why it's happening here.

There's something here of a there are I guess three different dreams that Dante has throughout his time The first one we covered a long time ago in one of my droning episodes over quarantine Which I guess we're technically still in quarantine of some kind was about not having a vision of an eagle this happens in cancer nine Dante goes to sleep in the dream. He's in a field. He's just kind of walking around and he sees his eagle in the distance He's like oh, it's like a cool looking eagle. He's like look in it's like oh He goes getting kind of close to me, and then he gets picked up by Eagle strikes him and like grab him with the talons picks him up and it's this You're not Frodo After we yield a moment in the air terrible is a thunderbolt it fell and swept me upwards to the rings of fire I and the eagles seem to burn a flame so searing where the blazes in my mind my sleep had to be broken So he in this dream is picked up by an eagle so there's some connections here You said this this iron is part bird so this is kind of a two different birds that we see Did you I think you might have said this what does sirens look like bird ladies?

Yeah, but are they heads of women? But they're usually viewed as like appealing creatures, right? Well, this is the weird thing in the classics. They're not they're not attractive It's only later that they are imbued with physical characteristics of beauty back in the old days like Homer They're not beautiful creatures.

It's only their song that's attractive, but they are but they're still attract attractive Maybe the song the song is almost irresistible and then go mad and want to follow it Yeah, so this one Dante must have now attributed the physical characteristics of attractiveness to the to the siren as well So he's looking sirens aren't looking cute Suddenly he hears the voice of a blessed lady who's probably sing Lucy if you want to let Lucia If you want to hear more about her go listen to my old episodes It's like the fifth episode of done on purgatory in the crazy. We'll come to a There's a guy who's been in purgatory for 500 years. We're about to meet and you'll probably feel just So the down to here is the voice of a woman who is Really upset that the siren is here which all this should be how this aren't yet there It's in his dream, so she's not actually there But all this dreaming was actually happening is kind of makes up in a second Sing Lucy sing Lucia calls on Virgil to take care of the siren and then this is what Virgil does kind of a weird description. I don't think it's inappropriate But I don't know you might want to skip 30 seconds listen to it and find out if you wish you would skip 30 seconds He seized and ripped the curtains off that winch and showed me her whole punch and all below which woke me with the putrefying stench I moved my eyes and the good teacher said at least three times I've called a rise and walk let's find the passageway and move ahead So attractor song Dante is like walking toward her Virgil shows up cuts off her clothes and shows that she's like actually ugly whole Paunch and then she smells bad she has a putrefying stench That is the thing that happens any guesses as to why that happens Birds are kind of gross.

Are we talking if this is why circle of is this in the circle of sleuth? No, we have passed that we are getting close to Everest we're between sleuth and Everest right now It's called sleuth that we talked about that well because you can be drawn to something and then and then have it not be the thing You wanted her have it be actually a disgusting thing. Thank you Virgil later Say you saw he said that source of old she who's repented in these upper rings you saw how men must bolt out of her fold So she is Dr. Asselen if this is your first time tuning in the two really helpful resources are the translation by Dr.

Asselen Dr. Asselen Dr. Asselen is your first time tuning in I love your book. I love your book.

So the Dr. Asselen translation of Dante is great as is a beginner's guide to Dante's Divine Comedy by Jason I think Dr. Jason Baxter some other great resources Anyway, Dr. Asselen will point to this as the siren as a sign of material good which appears pleasing to the eye But it's actually has but actually has like an evil disgusting side underneath.

So that's why the siren shows up here. We keep on Moving I already compared to you. There's a vision of an eagle earlier So there are two different bird images here one that one used by God to show how Dante is being drawn up in this fiery passion One used here to show the limits of material good material desires with an intern to the circle of the circle of avarice Everishes, can I say that sounds like a real thing? I'll just read this here.

Well, actually let's start with our definitions when I say avarice what comes to mind Greed right, but maybe there must be some sort of thing that's more distinctive than just greed You know wanting stuff. Yeah wanting stuff. You know coveting. Yeah covetism wanting stuff.

This is great So again, Aquinas definition This is what is meant by covetism which is defined as immoderate love of possessing immoderate love of possessing Typically will be related to money, but doesn't necessarily have to be Right here. You see my Lamborghini, but beside me, you'll see this what I prize even more It's like a whole genre though. It's not just that one guy. Yeah.

Yeah, that isn't embarrassing I thought that was one of the controversial parts of the video. He doesn't say that in the video But how am I supposed to do my like multi-level marketing scams on scam dropshipping is not a scam I'm like four-part video series for 999 When so if the sin is Averus covetism is greed. So immoderate love of possessing what would be a punishment that would correct for that What correct for an immoderate desire for stuff for for Averus? Yeah, like you got to give stuff away Oh, you guys like big bag of stuff and you got to give it to everybody dinner.

I'll see so you got to be Santa I got or like I don't know you get you have to carry like a giant bag of heavy crap everywhere Just to realize how yeah, oh, it's a really like you got to purge your like retired parent parents house You have to like go through and just like oh Yeah, I get rid of like a hoarder. It's like oh, we got this in Cancun in 96 You can't get rid of it. Yeah, I wonder if it's just to share or live on little Y'all are pretty spot on with it all these are part of what's weird is that You know, they're not bodies at this point. They're just souls their shades is what they call them over and over again I'm so they don't they don't bring anything with them, but there are different it appears like physical things happening to them in each circle So here this is can't a 19 line 70 again for none of you following along at home And when I reached clear space in that fifth round I saw great crowds lamenting everywhere all lying with their faces to the ground my soul cleaves to the dust I heard them praying uttered with sighs so deep that it was hard to hear and understand what they were saying And he goes on from there.

So they're face down on the ground looking at the dirt And that's what they do. They also cry out and pray during this time So there's also repentance, but they're focused on the dust again The things that they desired in life ultimately are dust they put too much value into whatever again money is the clear example the accumulation of wealth or property or whatever and instead of Yeah, they're learning that what they had cared about is only dust and that's what they have to reflect on for their time in the circle What? Don't you meet a pope a dream the fifth is he one of y'all's favorite? Oh, I love Adrian fourth not so good fifth really just the best in the series We'll talk with something about what's happening in the series.

I like that We'll talk about what is happening in the circle What Everest does is manifest it here by the purgation of the souls turned round No pain upon the hills more severe for as our eyes were never raised on high But fixed themselves upon the things of earth here just as humbles them to touch the ground. Oh, so you were looking at all the things of earth And now you have to like literally look like way closer. Yes, please reflect on this is what you desired in life Oh, you like the earth so much. I'll watch you can close what you marry it I mean I'm thinking about is how the fourth in the series would be called a new pope Oh Well done proud of you.

That's I think we could just in the podcast right there. This we've got a good hundred and sixty episode Run, but that's it we did it. We found the perfect joke. I'm sorry.

No, we're doing great No, we should just never have any more episodes as Everest quenched the love we should have born for all good things and made us lose our labor So just as holds us here within its clinch. So that is probably been talking about the circle of the average Just I'm not gonna say much more about it. I actually didn't think we've been much time here But here we are twenty minutes in hope you're having fun. Okay, we move on to kento 20 How do they get out of it repenting so they seem to realize that actually have a pretty clear description in just a second You'd ask last time about a soul moving between levels.

Yeah, actually see that in a I think it's the next kento I won't say actually no. I like you. We're gonna talk about this one. Um, okay So before the episode Graham, I mentioned that we meet a fellow named Hugh Capay Capay you cap it you cap it What do you know about this fellow the first french king?

Is that I think he's the first french king And the head of one of the main french houses I can never remember which one it is. Is it the house of Capay? Maybe house of the law. I came over.

Let me I'll read this and again. Well, you know, we'll take him in his own words So in the circle of the average is daunting each meets Hugh Capit here is his I Feel like it's like a prank name every time I see it right like huge huge cap it. I don't know what a cap it is though That's where anyway, okay, so there was a big hat big head big head, right? That's why I'm wondering if that was huge cap it.

Um, okay, uh his description of himself Oh, who is he Hugh Capit was my name and every last Philip and Louie who was governed france from my day until now was sprung from me So the father of all or ancestor of all french kings But he has more to say than just that I was the chief rooted that evil tree that spreads such gloom overall Christendom The good fruits the good fruits are rare for plucking but if lillar gains are available or he keeps going on Talking about other names not too very clearly does not have nice things to say about french noble people this entire cantoes like charles before it's tried to kill him Ultimately led to his exile right from um, where's he from? From Florence so that's part of him though I hadn't intended to say this that his backstory makes it almost more powerful as put him in purgatory and not hell Right that he could see him as this like regenerator of all evil in the world all his political strife But instead sees him for the faith that he has and you know He didn't have any personal beef with like the great grandfather or whatever of his political enemy Um, but yeah, he is the father of the person who gets him kicked out of Florence house. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, it was well, well No, take it up with Dante. Um, okay, so uh, Hugh mr. Capit Mr.

Capit has an interesting part in here that I want to offer to you all so we've talked in different circles about how they are So like the prideful AJ said this they have this giant rock on the back They're staring at the ground in front of them. They're looking at the stories of humility and that is there it's both their punishment But also their education. So we learn more about what's happening in each circle from Hugh the man himself. I will read this and we'll go from there Those words I spoke referring to that soul spouse of the Holy Spirit, which made you turn my way to gain a gloss upon the text Okay, so they talked to him because he's like wailing his repentance He's like loud enough that not tamed Virgil or like what's up with this guy?

So, you know the words that I was talking about when you heard me yelling That is the antiphon for all our prayers as long as the day lasts at fall of night We sound the opposite in its place for then we tell the story of the million turn traitor to nation Kinslayer in thief by his all gluttonous will to keep up gold and of the greedy might has come to grief after he made that wish to gorgeous Vill misery ever fit to make men laugh then we were called eak him Presumptuous fool who robs the spoils told and so loud of voice it seems the wrath of Joshua bites him still Saphira and her husband we accused and praised the hooves that cooked at that kicked at heliodorus and round the hill and infamy there goes Paul Nestor who cut down paulidorus then we cry in conclusion now you know so tell us crassus what's the taste of gold Don't keep going from here. Yes. Um, sometimes one speaks up loud the other low According as desire may spur us on to sing our chance with greater strides or no So then so when you heard me I was not alone speaking of virtue in the day, but near us no voice was raised so high by anyone What is he talking about here? They tell positive examples during the day and then at night they tell the opposite they tell um warning stories against in this case avarice Um, but when I read this there seems more going on than just reading those stories.

Um, I'll maybe say again from here Um, uh Saphira and her husband we accuse then praise the hose that kicked at heliodorus and round the hill and infamy there goes Paul Nestor who cut down paulidorus then we cry in conclusion now you know so tell us crassus what's the taste of gold It goes on from there. They're doing something interesting here where they're putting themselves in the story Right. It's more than just they've heard the story of Saphira and her husband holding on to money not giving it up And then you know they die for it. It's they are accusing Saphira and her husband they put themselves into the story Um, same with um, so are they having to feel the the effects of what the other people's avarice Um, sort of engendered like they're they're having to be the poor or the they're having to be the the the taken from I don't think they're necessarily the ones hurt by these decisions.

So again They're saying that they are accusing Saphira and her husband. They are looking on as um Crassus is the one who is he headed and then has gold poured down or he has gold or he died and then they poured I just looked it up. They poured a bunch of gold down as his gullet. That says what is the taste of gold You know, sometimes like you get those you see those fancy restaurants.

That was like hamburgers covered with like a little gold foil Yeah, make a crassus burger. Oh, that's awesome. Okay, so Food truck sounds depressing. Oh crassus burgers.

What else we got in there? Nothing. Um, the taste of dust uh, the avarice dust So, uh, maybe I find this more interesting maybe than you all that it's not just a retelling of stories They are feeling the stories in a way that makes it their own story. It's not merely hey, it's bad That's fear and her husband did this.

It's we are Enraged that you are keeping this money for yourself. It's not just that Um, uh, crassus had too much of love of gold. It's that they are condemning him for that love of gold So they're having to they're putting themselves in the other They're having to be in that story and yeah empathetic or bring themselves into the feeling what the others felt Yes, which I find it's not enough to just know these stories It's they are actually emotionally engaged in these stories. It's not just yeah, there's this old story that happened It's they're living it out.

Yes. They are living it out every night is the way that's right They go through all of these stories every night and I think that then becomes I'll connect that in just a second. I'll just sorry that will connect with them with what prepares a person to move from one circle to the other It's not just at some point long ago. We talked about um, like the fables, um, who's the guy with the animal fables?

Asop asop fables and we had this back and forth of is it not like you know the lessons from asop fables But you don't live the lessons from asop fables. You know not to be swayed by flattery, but still we're swayed by flattery In purgatory, it's not enough to know avarice is bad because everyone would say avarice is bad It's you have to actually have your mind changed and hate greed hate avarice So that's I think what he is pointing to with this section right here I found this super interesting, but I will I will move on from there I was thinking about this so at church this Sunday They were preaching from Galatians where they talked about the fruit of the spirit love joy peace patience kind It's good as faithful as gentle as self-control and then the line was and without these with the no What is it? I thought against these things are no against these things there is no law, right? and um that sort of hit me as like um, this may be a longer thought we don't need to get into but it was just the idea that there's There's law and then there's want and then there's wanting to do the right thing So you put rules in place because you want them to love the good eventually But once you love the thing you don't really need the rules anymore You hold on to that thought sure like 35 minutes because you have Really everything that I'm going to say because you're a smart guy.

Um, it's a great Back to making bad puns and no, you should do what you didn't even talk about food trailers. Um doing your own episodes So that's actually everything you just said is where we will end up So, you know, listen or hold on to that thought or forget about it so that I can say it and sound profound Um, okay So this all happens and so we talked about having to feel these stories and then like literally immediately after that You know, the conversation ends and Dante just keeps walking. There's no like goodbye or anything It's just always very funny So Dante and Virgil keep walking and as they are walking Um, we departed from that shape by now and set ourselves to overcome the road as far as the throng passage would allow When I felt the hill tremble like a thing ready to topple over so mount purgatory is trembling like a thing ready to topple over And I was taken by chills that sees a man led off to die. Yeah, and then uh, Virgil like grabs him and like gives him a hug to reassure him.

It's very funny. Yeah, Virgil. He's a good guy. He's a good guy He's a good guy.

They maybe I'm sure they've been doing this the entire time and I'm just finally picking up on it There's this father-son language that's used a lot between Virgil and Dante that really starts to be emphasized over and over Dante calls him father first and there's a scene later where Virgil will call him son to motivate an action from him And it's just a very um, it's sweet this connection They developed over the course of you know inferno and now most of purgatory. Okay, so there's no quick We don't know why but it happens that is the end of can't do it 21. We found it later though, right? In can't do it 21.

Sorry. We just wrapped up can't do it 21. They are walking along and uh a ghost a shade ghost made I don't know whatever a shade um walks up behind him and just kind of starts a conversation with him and As ghosts and shades are wanted to do and uh, just because the shade knows more about purgatory than Dante does Dante asks him um if you know a hotel if you know why the mountain recently shivered so hard And why they seem to cry down to its sandy base beside the sea like it's a terrifying um shake that you're luck I've a jelly No, it's actually a poet which maybe makes him less useful. Uh, but still a wonderful person.

Sorry all of our poets out there So you can still dig for nuggets as a poet. Can you I guess you can do whatever you want to right as anyone can do that? Uh, it's like one of those prosper. No, what are they called when you take the go to the beach?

49. Yeah, it's what I'm looking for great Prospector prospector prospector think is that what you would call them is you have the metal detector? Prospector prospector. Thank you good.

I guess it is still looking for me You find like keys and ball caps and not gold until you find gold bars Golden them are hills. Okay, so don't they ask why there was an earthquake? Which seems like a really reasonable question This shade who I don't think we've learned the name of yet, but we will later Starts with this thing about how purgatory never changes. There's no weather in purgatory.

Um, there's no movement of the clouds. Um, there's no Um, there's a scene earlier where don't take plucks. I want to say it's like a piece of grass or maybe a leaf But as soon as he does another one immediately grows back. Um, yeah, exactly There's like the tree was supposed to look a certain way don't I mess it up.

It gets fixed immediately That's why the sheep are the happiest sheep you've ever seen So much grass So that is mentioned purgatory never changes. Um, except when it trumbles Future's plummeted though Great Um, okay, so but it does tremble That is literally the line 58 But it does tremble when a spirit feels so cleansed that he may rise or climb the hill The quake is accompanied by a shout. I didn't mention this. I should actually go back So it's not just the terrifying earthquake There's all about Dante the cry of glory to god in the highest It's as if it's being shouted from every direction everywhere and it terrifies him So, um Yeah, when spirit feels so cleansed that he may rise or climb the hill and the quake is accompanied by a shout Our purgings proof rests solely in the will which free to change its place and company takes the soul by surprise and brings delight to will to change Before this certainly we will but our desires will not allow wishing that justice deal as punishment as once we wished to sin So, um, the shades are choosing when they move on to the next level They choosing is the wrong word.

It's all complicated They know the right time to move on to the next level and it's when their will in their desire are unified Uh to to unified together in hatred of whatever the sin is at the level that they're at That interesting. Yeah, it's not enough to just return like to pass the final exam But it's even you did pass an exam, but you didn't just know here are the 12 stories in the circle of the prideful You hate pride. You have rejected pride and are now ready to move on to the next circle How much time are these fellows spending all these circles? Does it talk about that because I feel like I mean I feel like you might get it pretty quick with a rock on my shoulders and a whole bunch of stories about humility Give me a couple of days.

I'll get that right happen. Yeah, I'll be reading before the circuit pays been there 500 years And this guy who's been here 500 years. I only now This is the shades talking I only now felt my will free to find a better place I who have lain 500 years and more here in the sorrow That was why you felt the trimmer of the earth and heard the soul around the mountain giving praise to god and may he called him soon He this shade is the reason for the earth week. Um, he had just passed from the circle of um avarice to he's gonna He's actually just gonna walk through the circle of gluttony, which is kind of cool.

Um, so he got that one licked Yes, he doesn't have to spend any time there. I'll actually walk with down to the rest of the purgatory So you later you did your bronies. He's right up with funny Um, so that is why there was no quick a second ago That is what happens when people move between the different circles. They that the mountain responds to a soul being Shakes and sings and yes, the the other people shout the mountain shakes The person walks on to the next circle as well as like an affirmation that they're ready for it This person we find out later is stitias stitias you don't know anything about the poet stitias Nope Oh, you're gonna blow my mind if you do Nope, cool Stitias the people call me to this day I sang a thieves and the great Achilles, but with the second burden fell mid way He started a book about Achilles and died the brilliant seed that set my love a fire flashed from the divine flame that kindled me And lit the lamps of many a thousand more of the aniad I mean for all I am of poet It was my mom and my nurse without it all my work was not a dram He's a poet.

He wrote um again This thing about Achilles that he didn't actually finish and the one about thieves is the um, oh, I've pulled up, but it's uh He wrote an epic poem about thieves is the point where there's like 12 volumes Apparently it had something of a resurgence when Dante was writing, but isn't actually that good again? According to our fan fiction as you all right class law. There's right? What is what is paradise law?

Not fan fiction. Yes Also again, he is praising the aniad as like the thing that sparked in him the desire to write Is that why is that an interesting reference? Virgil wrote it. Yeah, and where's Virgil right?

He's standing right there Yeah, so so this guy starts praising the aniad written by Virgil. Virgil is Dante's guide through Inferno and purgatory and so it's like stop stop it. It's actually really funny scene So so this guy's like he just says this he's not like prompted. He doesn't recognize Virgil right because they're shade You can't really yeah, this is a thing in the inferno.

You can't really like recognize You kind of I don't know They look to each other like shades. They don't recognize each other. I guess he wouldn't know what Virgil look like anyway And so don't it has his moment of like yeah, he kind of looks to Virgil and gives him an i and Virgil says Please be still turning a silent glance my way, but man can not do everything by power of will So don't ends up uh he kind of like gives a wink to uh state yes and state yes is like So good to tell me why may all your labor come to a good end You showed me that little twinkle in the eye and so not even reveals that Virgil is the guy standing right here with state yes And he immediately like drops on his knees says that he would spend more years in purgatory if he could only have more time Oh, that's not good. You're gonna get knocked down and peg my friend, but you're going down to uh Uh holding out limbo right now.

What's it when you like place your love for someone else above the love of god? Maybe this is like well lust, but I'll think yeah, yeah, um, it's not pride and be maybe pride. I don't know Yeah, it's uh it's a respect of the um, yes, it's a respect of Virgil. Yeah, I don't you know You want to say I'd spend more years in purgatory just to chill with you.

That's uh, I mean I guess it means you know you're less than yet. It would make a great death cab song Oh, I'll follow you into the dark in that. Oh, it's not one of ours. Um, you love that song at all Okay, so um having help can't decide so they're both satisfied is that the lyric in the song?

Yes, sorry. I don't know it as well as you do Um, why don't you always make me know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, illuminate the nose on their vacancy signs, which is when there's no one inside besides you when you're selling barks I'll follow you into the dark. Yeah, why do you want to know this?

Okay, so We have hearts make me do but you also reject it so you have no heart so Virgil two years in a heart That's how we know it. I think I say two hearts in New York. I got nervous for a second. Um, so um Virgil So now satius knows that Virgil is the other shade he starts fanboying about Virgil and it's just very sweet So they get to the next scene I think I didn't mention about this guy's satius is that he was a first century roman poet Uh, there's no record that he was a christian.

There's no historical record of that Uh, and so don't they has to do some work to say why he's here in purgatory? Why he's like pretty high up in purgatory. Um, and so the question is Opposed to him of why he's here. There are two parts to this first It's why is why is satius like a moral virtuous person and he says that Virgil is the reason for that now that Virgil has a line.

Why do you wholly hunger after gold not guide the appetites of mortal men? Um, and there's this whole anyway There's like apparently there is a level of love of wealth that is acceptable that is not excessive I guess is the way to say there are good physical things to desire after virgil points to that and that was something that I'm held satius to repent of his avarice. He even references that Um, if not for this line, I'd be a jouser where the rocks are rolled So he's actually referencing the inferno. So apparently knows the punishment.

Um, is that for the avarice the greedy? It's for the hoarders and smiths. Yeah, adjuster where the rock so they roll rocks into each other than holler. Why why spend why hoard?

Yeah, and so he he recognizes that he would have been sent there if not for his repentance of Um greed and then the question is posed by Virgil What candle then what son scattered the darkness that you might turn sail following the fishermen following god? The state is his reply. This is too virgil You were the one that he who first invited me to sip of the springs and the grottos on Parnassus And then you lighted me the way to god You did as one upon the road at night who holds a torch that those behind me see though He himself's unaided by the light through a tragic image saying from this is he's quoting Virgil here This is a state is his line that run to be run into faith from heavens from heaven This ends a newborn son the morning of humanity returns and a new age of justice has begun the echologues Yes, a poet you made me and a Christian too and he goes on from there Yeah, that's a really weird piece in in Virgil history is that he has this poem called the echologues where He's essentially writing about Augustus. Yes, but the way but when you read it, you're like this is about Jesus But Virgil predates Jesus.

Yes, so um and it's so it's very bizarre So I mean classical Christian scholars have said well Virgil just like knew it Or he they pre preempted it or like the fact that the that the messiah's coming was so strong that like it even radiated into the poetic mind of Virgil In the past whatever, but uh, yeah, the echologues is a really when you read it. It's spooky just in how um Well Christian it sounds. Yes I don't know much about the echologues other than what's quoted here apparently this is from the fourth one So they're apparently there are multiple This line can be translated different ways. Here's another translation again from Dr.

Eslyn the great line of the centuries is born again now the virgin of justice returns in the golden reign of Saturn now a newborn child is sent down from the heavens on High from a virgin. Yeah, I know it's it's wrong. It's crazy. Yeah, so um, but I don't know how you're saying There's kind of a longer tradition of interpreting this Dante's read is to say Virgil didn't benefit from this knowledge Virgil was not saved by this knowledge of a future son that would come to bring justice or whatever again the images Is it a fisherman?

I just lost it One on the road at night who holds it towards that those behind mason. He's holding a torch behind him Though he himself is aided by the light so he leaves this gift that satius in here It's I guess you'd say but um Virgil doesn't benefit from he's stuck in limo I think the argument for it is that there's a common grace that god also gives where the poets and uh, um, and some of the classical authors have a knowledge of What god will do in christ without really being able to put a fine point on it So the jews in their uh in their testament the jews in their scriptures have hints of that And so two to the pagans, and then when christ comes Athens and Jerusalem kind of um commingle. Yes Um, so um or you can say that christian ages stole all that stuff, but sure, uh, or you know to fill it whatever Um, so, uh, so I guess this part of this lines with what you're saying satius is born in the first century He's born after christ it is possible that he would have heard of christ if he depended could have become a christian But for sure he wasn't like publicly a christian, right? Like this is not a thing that recorded about him So do you want to he's been here for 500 years?

Do you want to guess where he's been for those 500 years? Gwenine zee, susie, uh, hungry new again, thanks to virgley made it through that because he didn't look like a christian during his life He had to go to the circle of the slothful. He's been there for 400 years. Oh having been running laps Yes, because he had to he was able to live his life looking Uh, he's fitting into culture design, right?

There's no like passionate in him that um first or whatever So he'd been there for 400 years all the um all the stuff before that took 100 years apparently and then that's why um he's in the circle He is right now. So there you go. Okay, so Yeah, i'm sure there's more to be said here, but just it's just that like yeah that this guy has a Saving faith but he has a knowledge of god from virgil who himself did not have a null or knowledge of christ from virgil Who himself did not have a knowledge for christ But you're saying that he could have also have heard the story of christ because he lived in the first century He could have connected what he could have connected to a virgil simp, so he would have been again being after christ He could have heard virgil prophesying this and then heard the connection to the actual It's not like it's kato up there Yeah, that answers my question I was gonna say why not put Socrates and Plato there because they talk about the Like the gods and how they should work and it can't be these crazy gluttonous things that are that are talked about And so i was wondering why not those guys well it's time i think i have to be post-jesus Yeah, which is a bummer just a bummer for virgil Isn't there a pagan emperor in purgatory who like gave it to a jacket i think he's impaired he said okay wow man I think that's right um but again we're not we're definitely not there sorry no it's fine Okay, so uh he was stuck in the circle of the slothful for a long time because he again looked like a pagan It was not like boldness faith or anything like that during his life Okay, um I will breeze through these next few sections and then we'll wrap up with a just a beautiful part from virgil We get to the circle for gluttony. Oh, I do this every time and then immediately forget So for the circle of um the averages for the for the covetous So if covetousness is not a phrase you're used to here are the children of covetousness things that you might look for in your Unlife that are tied with the capital sin of um greed Treachery fraud falsehood perjury restlessness violence and insensibility to mercy Treachery fraud falsehood perjury restlessness violence and insensibility to mercy.

Nope. Yeah, it's only sure good with all those and you're good to go Awesome. I know a lot of fraud. Yeah.

Wow. Okay. That's you know this is being recorded right? I feel like yeah I don't like fraud.

I don't like fraud with the crazy stuff. That's like i was about the guy who admitted insurance fraud to me on the airplane No, that's did you ever recorded with you at the time? I didn't I was unfortunate lucky. I wasn't a Fraud investment.

Okay, so we move on. So it's a fraudy and slip on the airplane Okay, we'll go into the circle of the gluttonous. Nope. We're not not staying there.

Um, so the circle of gluttony. What is gluttony? Gluttony is enjoying too many worldly comforts. Yeah, never to food typically is understanding having so much food you deny to others Yeah, uh, yeah in order to desire and again be for all kinds of things food is the one we typically think of but it can also be I'm kind of any um central experience, right?

Um food drink. We'll have don't do so drinking buddy shows up at this point When you don't like give the controller to your kid brother. Is this something you're holding on to? Well, I am the kid brother What would you guess the punishment or not the punishment?

What is the cure for gluttony in purgatory? Oh, and in hell it was getting rained on. It's probably is it like eating lint and fair so you gotta eat like leeks? Oh, that would even worse.

No, I mean, it's it's fasting It's straight up fasting each shade was dark and hollow in the eye pale in the face and worn away So then the flesh assumed the contours of the bones but they're fair. They have no flesh their shades Um, their eye holes were like rings without the gem those who read omo omo in the face of man and theirs would easily have found the m their face Their eyes are so sunken you can see the contrast between the m shape in the middle cheekbone to forehead to nose to forehead to She goes out. It is. I thought it would be like oh mo would be oh I suck it and would be nose Yeah, but they would easily found the m the contrast is really significant.

Oh, I'm saying So they are very sharp. There is a stream of liquor I don't think they say what kind it is, but it smells sweet a fragrant liquor the core where and the aroma of an apple There's a bruise river. Yes, exactly right next one. Yeah, that's exactly right.

I don't want to have it So they have that in front of them. We'll eventually find out this apple tree is from the seed of the original Tree the knowledge of the people. Okay. Um, so that is how it comes to be here.

Uh, don't it's his old drinking buddy. Um, he's impressed He's already come this far or right. He's like, how did you get here? Whoa, seriously?

You made it this far. I'm prideful Yeah, you know when they have a part where they're where don't he's like don't bring up my past right now Like you know some stuff like, you know, don't bring it up. Um, so that happens. Is it just the booze river is our food too?

That they can't have so there's another and an apple tree as well. Oh, man. Oh, man. What's that kind of booze that's made from apples and cider?

No, no, I mean, there's cider, but there's a there's a hard liquor. I think of it right now. Anyway, oh look at it up. You guys keep trying it's amazing Um apple flavor.

No, no, no, I got it. Maybe this is very important. Okay. Um, so that's the circle of gluttony You know fasting is the obvious reply to that.

Uh, there's this can't this can to 23 is our introduction can to 24 is a tour of people who are in the circle of gluttonous They talk a lot about Italian politics. This was not interesting. So sorry. Don't take brandy.

Oh Brandy's made from fruit. Oh from grapes are from apples or whatever. I know it's from apple. It's interesting common fruit spirit.

Um, okay So I'm gonna skip over the Italian political stuff. So apologies in advance Uh, kanto 25 is started by Dante asking I don't know if you all have this question too. He he notices that you know, the shades don't have bodies, but they still appear hungry Right. They have no need for food.

They are wasting away in the circle. Um for the gluttonous And I will this is dr. eselen. No one's favorite kanto this not poetic enough That's his summary of this this can't which he is 100% correct Oh, but because they're just talking about Italian politics.

No Italian politics was the one before That was kanto 24 can't do 25 is an answer to the question of why the spirits look like their bodies would look oh if they were hungry and It's just technical and yes, it's not really anyway I mean the answer is that the two are the two match each other when you are crying That's your body that is crying tears, but your soul that is sad There's not a disunity between the two so yeah, right? So for your body to be hungry is also for your soul to hunger as well. Let's do work tied together. So you're seeing the You're seeing those two in unity in the purgatory.

Um, he talks a lot about how where souls come from Um, and apparently they used to think that babies came from the mixing of blood. So I don't know things are weird Um, I don't know anything about that. So moving on to kanto 26 we get close. Yeah blood.

I don't know that's kind of weird But um, so the circle of the lustful is our final circle for our time together kanto 26 and 27 Graham you've referenced this a few times before I guess first Oh, sorry. No, I messed up already the daughters. Oh, yeah daughters of the goodness. Um, unseemly joy scurility uncleanness Laquatiousness and don't us of mind as guard the other boy 15 year old boy Unseemly joy scurility.

What is scurrilous? What is that? Give me a good definition. I don't think scruffy less Which is different?

Scurrilty is the quality of being scurrilous, which is not the most helpful. Great. Is it uh, uh, hold on This is probably fascinating listening. I see things squirly Uh, course language using or given to course language is older people So those are your children of gluttony to be on the watch for um, the answer to them is um, too fast fast fast from those things Right to know your son those things we move into the circle of the left full what is the lust?

See inordinate desire for bodies for another person sexually. Uh, yes, exactly. Um, Wanton pleasure is a definition from Aquinas. Um, does it have to be people or is it um, so is it always is it a sexual desire?

I guess anything else would be the avarice or gluttony. A lustful man is one who is debauched with pleasures Now venereal pleasures sexual pleasures above all debauch a man's mind. Therefore lust is especially concerned with such like pleasures It's not only but primarily with body pleasures. So again looking at these things that are like good, but just need to be refined Um, material goods for avarice are good I just always wondered where like inordinate drug use goes in interesting in the uh, like it is you know The desire to I don't be on lsd right a lost because it's an in exordinate bodily feel like i would be gluttony But i'm not sure because it's the desire for the experience because that again Avarice will have to do with material goods gluttony is to do with food and drink with good things and of themselves and the lust is bodies Which are good things the desire of a body is a good thing But inordinate desire is is um is wrong.

So that is lust. So what did I just say? A lustful man is one who is debauched with pleasures and primarily venere sexual pleasures venereal is a weird word I'm not anyway. Sorry.

Um, that is primarily what it's related to what is the punishment for those who are in the circle of lustful To be to burn without being consumed. Um, you knew the answer That's that's that's that's in elliot some wasteland. Oh, there you go. So that is a part of it I will say there's another part that surprised me.

Um, I'll just read again All I want to do is read on type from the middle where the passage burned uh came people facing opposite to these So there are two lines of people they're both looking at each other I hung my gaze upon them looking on and from each side I saw the shades make haste to greet the others with a kiss each one Intended with a brief festivities. Yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's circle the last place But that's but love is good. Yeah, but don't just go like no tongue. Yeah, just don't know don't reach other with a kiss like too eagerly Yeah, but that's um, let's close No eye contact, but you know, they're command for speed or 514 is greet one another with a kiss of love So like the sand somehow is accomplished here, right?

They are so I guess they leave a flowing river of booze around the one But that's again. I just find that interesting. It's both the um their desires are burned away, right? That's um, they're passing through that fire that that love is um, I think burned away is the right term for it There are like excesses of love that need to simply be spent find out.

Yeah, exactly But there is still a love that exists after that. They are still happy to see each other. They are still greeting They are still capable of here kissing You know, European greeting a greeting They're still capable of that without lust and so that's part of the consequences to learn that through practice every time Um, Dante tries talking to them the shades of no idea why he's there. He meets a predecessor of his Like why are you here?

No girl likes you. Um, and as a mountain man stands over odd and stares and speeches wonder all about when rough and rude He comes to the big town. So we're the shades and their appearance now. So, you know, he's insulting them But uh, yes, they have no idea why he's here.

They you know, he's shouting to them asking what have you done to be burned And they uh, don't respond to him. They don't know what's going on. Dante meets a love poet I don't wean wean is Ellie. I don't know.

He is like a predecessor. Dante's Dante has his fan point moment So Stadia's was happy to see virtual Dante's happy to see Um, wean is Ellie. Good as Ellie. I don't know.

I say that again. I'll do his butcher the Italian language. Okay. Uh, this guy will Save his poetry.

That's not that good and that won't be remembered to time and he's okay with that. He doesn't care anymore That's right. We don't know how pronounce his name. Yes, exactly right.

Sorry about that. Okay. So this will be our last cancer together and hopefully I'm sorry i'm rushing it's anyway. So we will this is kanto 27 will be the last one that we wrap up with So this is the top of the circle of the lustful.

Um, so through most of these don't they has not had to do anything He's like watched the other people as they have rocks on their back, but not I didn't get a rock on his back Not I didn't have his eyes on shot. He was like in the mist, but like he walked right through it wasn't really a big deal In kanto 27 he has to face this fire before he's able to approach the top of purgatory. We'll cover next time buddy So this is his first time having to deal with one of the consequences So he he walks up to this wall of fire and if you are going to write a poem about yourself And you need to ascribe to some kind of sin that you did you've done. You may want to like pick the sexy one I loved too much.

I love the ladies and they love me. Sounds political So they walk up to this wall of fire and satius and virgil are not concerned They wrote like noble epic poetry. They don't like they don't have like love poetry in the background So they're not worried to walk through the fire because they won't have much that he's Stadia's is walking around. He's walking around.

He's walking the entire way and he's with virgil is his body Yes, exactly. He's kind of the vehicle card. Come on But they come to this wall of fire and Dante is terrified to walk through it Um, well duh Yes, and so virgil tries to coax him to walk through this wall of fire My son there may indeed be torment here, but but death can never be remember Just remember when we rode on gurians back back in the inferno I let you safely down. What will I do now that we're near God stand in this fire's belly a thousand years You must believe it for a certainty.

You wouldn't be bolder by a single hair So he gives look the reality of purgatory is you cannot die here. There can be pain, but there's no death Here is this a convincing argument? I think so pain still sucks. Yes, good in here.

It hurts But you'd be fine. This is funny Um, Dante is not moved by this argument. Virgil gives the rational argument Dante the nature of purgatory is that you cannot die The fact is you can walk through this fire and be fine and it's not enough for Dante He is not he still stands there terrified. Um, uh, yet I stood firm against my conscience Again, this conscience tells him believe what you're hearing So when he virgil saw me stiffened and movable he said a little troubled that he had to move to this son Look now what's keeping you from Beatrice is this wall And then that immediately was what proms don't take to actually go through the fire.

It's not the Rational argument it's not the rational argument. It's not just the facts of the situation It's his love for Beatrice. That is enough to pull him through that wall of fire to face the Um, I would say danger, but to face the pain really is what he's on the hook for he walks through it It hurts a lot, but he makes it um, and he hears a singing voice So the shades are not currently in the fire their virginal stages follow with him No, no, I mean like the shade of smoochin. Yes, but they kind of they um, it's like a narrow path There's like fire on one side and like falling off the mountain on the other So they're forced to walk through fire up to this final wall of fire Is that there's lots of burning going on in the circle of the lustful like the loss do they do they are they burning as part of their punishment?

Yes, yes, while they're while they're in the circle and that final level is like a wall that they have to cross They have to listen to like good love stories, right? Yes. They references elsewhere. Um, they were yeah many apologies Um, so they cross through that um, voluntary, of course, we'll take a nap at this point.

He has a vision of leah Uh, leah from the story of Rachel and leah, huh? Uh, yeah, why is why do you have a hundred there? Well, she's the she's the one that was loved or the one that wasn't loved. Yeah, which makes a surprising image I was saying the vision of the one was loved so it's weird and even so Lee is supposed to Seven year had to work seven years and he got her and he wasn't happy about it.

Jacob. Um, Jacob wanted Jacob loved Rachel Uh, but uh, laban tricks j gub into working to marry leah not Rachel. Well eventually both but first leah is it is it because she she loved Chastley and virtuously right she loved without any sort of Lust in there in the mix. Let me so the image so you might also another thing to remember is she's like not the pretty one Rachel's a pretty one But in this it's described let anyone this is leah speaking let anyone who made a man by name No, I'm leah and I go to make myself a garland by my lovely hands here.

I adorn myself with a delight I will enjoy when looking in my glass like a mirror my sister Rachel never leaves that site but gazes in her glass the whole day through She goes on from there. I'll read from the leah. Um, so part of it is that being a purgatory leah has been purged of Her problems on earth. I guess I'll read this again This is a note from dr.

eslan medieval exegetes saw in rachel and leah an allegory of the contemplative and active life inferring from the weakness of leah's I's a keenness of vision in Rachel and inferring from leah's relative fecundity Just let's babies a propensity for the practical virtues after the purging of sin then dante has a vision of the return of virtue And that takes the form of a beautiful lady culling flowers from a meadow the dream is prophetic for will meet up holy lady in a second But even leah now is lovable and loved in a way that she couldn't be on earth. He's been purged of whatever was insufficient Not enough in her on earth. She now no longer has that she now is beautiful. She now is It's like he yes, right So we then get to the very end so don't take his cross through all of the circles of purgatory You may remember at the beginning that he had seven marks put upon his head to represent the seven sins that he would purge He has the final one removed from him.

Oh steve achievement you completed purgatory and Virgil so they're about to walk And Virgil like you know stops him before they take the steps up to the early paradise Which is the next circle now just read this is where at an hour right now So this is probably the right place to wrap it up The temporal and eternal fires my son you have now seen and you have reached a part where I discern no further on my own I've led you here by strength of mind and art take your own pleasure for your leader now You've left the steep and narrow ways behind behold the sun that gleams upon your brow behold the grass the flowers and the young trees Which this land of its own brings forth to grow while we await the glad and lovely eyes who's weeping made me come to you be a You may sit here or walk among them as you please no longer wait for what I do or say Your judgment now is free and whole and true to fail to follow its will would be to stray lord of yourself I crown and might are you so having purged himself of these sins Dante is now ready to make his own decisions He doesn't need Virgil or correct um and even to say dad. Yeah, right so no more sin makes a perfect intellect Yes, um again. I wish we had more time for it I see this as the response to the existentialist claims there is a freedom at the end of what Dante is describing here But it's having that freedom from sin makes one perfected in Um thinking feeling all of those things interesting He's been restored to image of god such that he can trust himself in a way that he wasn't able to seven levels of purgatory Again, that's virgil's final charge to him and he is crowned and mitered So he is both king and bishop now, right? He is both in control and capable of fulfilling those commands Yeah, so that's where we leave things off We will move into canto 28 and we have was that five more 28 through 33?

Cool. Yeah, cool. Those are cool. Yeah, sorry for rushing at the end But just trying to oh no worry about that and this has been classical stuff You can hit our website at classical stuff net you can email us the guys at classical stuff net You can check us out on twits at at clsscal stuff And we do have a patreon if you are interested in supporting podcast if you're not then We're still gonna do this for free But uh if you do pay us we we have extra goodies at the website at the five dollar level We got some extra talks and things you can connect with and if we ever have ads you will still get all the episodes at free You get some years of purgatory, too, right?

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