Hello and welcome to Turbo Table Top number three. It's been a while since we last on one of these. But this time, I am joined by a few more. Got a returning guest, Isaac.
Hello. But now I'm joined with Oli, Oli and Steve. Good afternoon. You may recognise the names we realise we've talked about them in the last one.
I think we said you would win Steve for the last one. Going into the last ninth. Yes. So you did win.
Yes. So well done. Thank you very much. But today we're just going to be catching up with 10 per edition because a whole new edition of the game has come out since we last on one of these.
So it's been out a few months. We've had a couple of 1k tournaments. What do you think of the game so far? I would say it's been a big change in a lot of ways and weirdly not that much of a change in some other ways.
So generally we're all still moving around, shooting and punching stuff. But the way they've changed effectively every day, shooting the game, it's caused quite a few problems. You've got, especially before the recent balance patch, you've had a shedlaid of balance issues, didn't you? So your army, John and I have got a utter shite.
And then on the other end of scale, my army, Eldar, were absolutely popping off with a, what was it, 67% win rate or something? I think it did tip to the 17 when you were moving from Miramatchers. Yeah, it was the first in the three terms. And your deathguard down to 35 or something?
So out of every 10 games winning three and a half, it's not good. It's not good. And that's the worst the game's been for years in terms of balance. I think Eldar will probably correct me on this.
I think Eldar will have won more tournaments already than the highest rated factions in my tradition did. The world has tournaments due to COVID and lots of the reasons for the combat is going a lot bigger. But the volume tournaments they have won exceeds that. That's a crazy stat.
Do you fact check me on that? It's true. It's true. I do think that they achieved their goal, they stayed at some point in ninth of having regular updates because it's been what, two, three months?
It's a launch of 10? Yeah, I think three. And we've had two significant size data slates to bring things in line. And at this point, I think we were just saying, like, 54% is the top end of the win rate.
The F-Alder against the bottom end is like mid-40s. OK, so that is... So they've shortened the gap a lot? And to put that into context, we've had the worst balance, the Viking member, because I haven't been playing that long since I was at the end.
We've had that. Which was a long time ago. No comment. The index and the complete data sheet change in tenth was the worst balance we've had for years.
And in one data slate and a little emergency thing they did, they've achieved some really good balance. And credit to them. I needed a good job of that. Yeah, without a blanket rewrite of everything.
Just a couple of tweaks here and there. I mean, what did they train? What was the big thing to the Alder that brought right down points or something? It was mainly points.
They tweaked the way some of the... You could do wounding, so... Devastation, Wounds don't kind of spill over onto little units. Now they're usually going to be big stuff.
But really it's points. So the 1,000 point list I took to a tournament that we went to in Toronto about six weeks ago went up to 1,000 points to 1,300 points. That's ridiculous. One run from 1,000 to like 700.
Yeah. But I... And again, credit to them, because a lot of people when they saw the index was saying, this is impossible to balance, especially without Alder. They said, they did just two powerful compies.
And look what they've done. One balance they'd say to like, and they pretty much know that. Yeah. It's a by-product of an over-hated power level and the new 10 to the different points are just power level by now.
But when you have like the granularity of pain, 10 points for a better gun, that's really hard to balance because you charge more for the unit because they can have the gun or for the gun because the gun's good. And then how would you make it so that taking the gun, 15 points isn't bad. If you charge for the unit and you get all of your options, you've only got worry about one variable. Yeah.
Not because I think it's an easier way to balance things. Yeah. To make that list quite homogenized though, I think as well, because you're not having to fine-tune for... Or, I can only take two compies weapons.
So at the top end, a lot of this stuff is very similar because there is an optimal way to run cast-based and re-terminate it. So there's an optimal way to run chosen. And I think... Yeah, that's right.
Which is good though, because you're still paying the points for the premium end, but there is no point in running them. But no one's going to run cast-tenators with 10 or cast-of-weapons, because you can take six power fists and two chain fists and all compies weapons. It's the same as I'd definitely. Why would you ever give them chainsaws and bolt pistols or power fist and infernicus?
You're paying for that. So it's fine. It works. It does work.
I think it's meant that when I look back at the way I built models for night edition, I mean, anyone that knows me knows, I love terminators. I've got 75 arkish ones, which is too many. And I've got 30 cast-based ones and I never run more than 10. But they do look cool in a box in my bedroom.
Sorry, probably room. But I've got loads of accarced weapons that I built because that was the optimal way to run them when you were sort of trying to say points for other things. And I know everyone in our shop is really good and if you just arrive at that. They're all the power fists.
That's not an issue. But I can imagine for some people like with your death company, actually, I've got to now remodel or I've got to have a big tournament. That's annoying. I think I've seen less people care about Wurziwig because of that actually.
It was quite nice that you just model them as long as you can distinctly tell. This guy has something different to the others. You talk about the fans of it, aren't you? Yeah, so by the top deathguard player, he, I watched an interview he did.
Since we joined the by the way, hopefully, where he, for his baguaries, just chucked from a coloured band on them. And so I'll get asked the place for you. That's the heavy plague weapon. Where they've consolidated weapons as well.
Yeah. Because now with the, with the play marines, the flail and a couple of other stuff. It's just a bubonic weapon. There's no specific flail.
So fuck it. That's the bubonic weapon. And this is the heavy plague weapon. I think that's one of the best things they have done.
It starts coming at the end of that cast based on the internectics. It was a good example. When you didn't have power acts of power, you had a cursed weapon. They meant you were just rolling one stat.
Yeah. I just wish that we'd maybe seen a bit more homogenizing of that intent and it's not having, well my cast based on the box has three power fists, like six cursed weapons and a chain fist and just saying heavy melee weapon and heavier person weapon. And then you're actually going a mate as a power fist. I think that would have been nicer.
That's one of the things with orcs is no one knows what an orc weapon looks like. So you can just kind of, yeah, that's the power core because it's a big claw and it's powerful. So with crisis suits, what the hell does crisis suits? Yeah, not even tablets.
No. Two minutes as well. I don't have a clue what any of that's going to be. I don't have a lot of calls.
Yeah. Definitely could be a kind of effect tonight. Yes. I believe you.
It's a basic character. So with knights, I look at a big knight and I'm sorry. It's big. It's a lot of wounds, what I'm really killing.
Can I kill it? Yeah. I'm like those sort of like stratagms and the enhancements. There's a lot less when you're building your army.
Like the kind of admin side of it. There's less to remember because there was like 12, 18 stratagms before. Depending on your army, I mean KL said four pages worth. It's hard now even in tend to where they've done a good job of simplifying that part of it.
So everyone's basically got four enhancements that day. Yeah. But even then you've still got what? 20 factions for an answer each plus six stratagms for each plus the core strats.
So they've done a good job of simplifying this helped but it's still very complicated. Well let me get worse. We've all made some good actors and the tyranny of Codex, and then even when you look at them, I mean, I've just gone through the space and Codex this morning finding that Raven Guard, Raven Guard, and converted commas there so you can't see me answer it, is definitely the best, probably way to run Dark Angels now. I'm not the first company, and I think that quite quickly there's still a best one that people will use, but when you've got six to choose from, you are in a bad place that an orc faction that have got one set of rules, or at least some more flexibility.
It helps when you're the opponent of a new army that you've never played, so you can have some explainer strats and no enhancements to you and say, what can I take three enhancements max anyway, I'll probably only got two, and these are the two key strats instead of having to memorise loads, so you go into a game informed about tactics and strategy and all the rest of it. Yeah, I found that you still get the two or three best strats that you use every year, but then the other ones like Orcs the Korean Strat, you don't need to remember it until it's relevant, and then it's there. You don't need to even the eight strats that you have, you don't need to know them all off like that, you need to know you've got your you might want to win your fight on death, and then a couple of situational ones that you're going to use. I think for the first time I've actually used every strat that I've accessed to, whereas in 9th I've thought pages were, then I have many legions of choice, and I only use the same.
They're called to read in the codex, loads are called flavour text, like good link to the lore and stuff. No, you just can't wait to get to use that. The only one I've not used is the Chaos Armor of contempt, which is 2C paper, and I assume that that'll be misprint and it'll be rectified eventually, and it's gone and gone, it's not, there's probably an internal balance reason for it, but the only one I've not used because it's 2C paper and that's CPA's rarity now, so it's less of a choice. I think the deathguard one, which is cloud of flies, gives everyone, well, gives a unit stealth, I use that constantly.
Yes, that's my nogal one. Some of the others are, yeah, I just forget about as well, even with, I've got 6 or remember, so forget about them, easily times. And is that, I think the core strats have got kind of issue, everyone occasionally will try to command for your hook, but I'm using that lesson now because I realise that it's a bit of a bit at times, but things like go to ground, I've never used that. No, on the way over, I was listening to another contest then, it was the first time I've even heard about it.
But I like it in terms of, you know, oh, you've got that cover and you've got an invulnerable save, but I'm a content dispenser, and tank shock, that's the big core strat. Yeah, one of the blades. So these are, because a few core strats are kind of low, so let's say low to mid level, right? We use a couple of those core strats, but when you watch some of their footage back from LGT, and they've got these specific combos of the core strats, I didn't even think of that.
It's like tank shock and grenades together, good way of getting mortal wounds through it, one really high toughness stuff, just by charging with a crap tank and getting some crap infantry nearby. All of my drugs carry a wreck and ball because it's normally 12 dice on tank shock. Yeah, you probably got to pick up six mortals off that for 60 points. Yeah, I think the game is, I mean, I liked nine, I did really enjoy nine.
I think I enjoyed nine, I got my head around it and kind of the list building and things like that was really fun and having to, the admin was quite fun, but I do think the game is in a much bad place. I haven't really come away from a tenth game thinking, well, I don't think I've got what's going on. Again, you know, things like, I see how to hit this, but like, at all points, it's like night edition. Yeah, you could talk for 10 minutes.
Yeah. And then five things happen. You could have just spoke in there, mate, as much knowledge of what was going on. And that's something about wizardry and Doombolts.
And yeah, I'm taking some models off the board. You've got something that you're really pleased that's how it is back. But I don't know why. That was a good tactic.
But the game doesn't feel like that. Do you find smites to put it anyway? It feels better. I love that the circuit phrase is gone.
It makes more sense rather than some armies just not having the whole section of the game. Yeah. And they're opponent taking 20 minutes in it. They is now an attack or just an inherent ability.
The abilities are, I don't know if they've quite worked out. I think my only gripe with them is that it's not a shooting attack. And that's the times you can feel rough about stuff. Yeah.
And I guess you can get that in a lone operative. So where you can't shoot something unless you're within 12 inches of it is the lone operative rule. And these abilities aren't shooting attacks. So they're effectively skirt that rule.
And it's a good way of... I can't be straight. Yeah. I think it's when, because of the mortal wounds often, because it's that point of nature, if I don't get to make a saving throw against this, I think if there was more of a...
they take d6 wounds, but I was still making a saving throw. I'd be a lot more on board with it. It's just that... Oh, you bypass my line up a different, my nergal strap on my stealth on a 2 to a 5 if you actually mount on a 6 if you do more.
I think it's... they're rare enough that it gets just a bit of flavour and a bit of variety. So I personally don't have a big issue with that. And there's somebody who runs a lot of lanes of lane off.
I'm like, where you can get me with some mortal wounds on my wrist. I don't have a screwdriver. Sneaking around. I think that's probably because I don't run much low knob.
Yeah. So it's just when you get the nergal strap, you're about to pop your CP for your life. And then I just think it's more than enough. I like the lore of the day.
You know, you don't... So my armor shouldn't be blocking my mind bullets. Yeah. I don't think Org's even have an operative in that bag.
In the next, we just not with an like... The Org model. Yeah. Although Org's...
I think Org's have gotten tougher. So a lot of the new stuff, these things that have their invulnerable swatch with the other planes. And if that's just better. Yeah.
So like the B-spots of grips are T10, 9 wounds, 4 up to the other plane. Like the rest of these stuff are statistics are irrelevant. Because whatever. You've got some saves or something.
Where before you have an invon. But mortal wounds just got around that. Now he can live and he can just sit in the middle and battlefield all game. Hold it.
I would like to see... So the best change, I think the biggest change really to the day. So I'm just going to take the same thing as the dev wounds. Because you weren't having...
I mean, that's something that runs two forge things. I would have run a third if I had one. I wouldn't now because the point changes. But 15 more wounds when you pick it up.
I think in our first game, I killed five terminators and a lord in one shot. And that felt awesome. But at the same time, it was a broken mechanic. I killed 15 more wounds into both and the whole squad was picked up.
You killed my squirky one boy. Yeah. Did you share power and then it's his power. I should have.
But I would like to just see, I think it's custodians that we need a bit of a tweak. Because it's an army wide, 4 up against mortals. But some I type of dark angel, some of the stuff like the lion is now... No one here is...
Absolutely. Pussy. Well, not quite. But he's no one who is durable as he used to be.
He's got a 4 up against mortal wounds. He's one of his command options. And dev wounds are threatened. And because he's a melee character, yes, he's got low not.
But if he's not them 12 inches of stuff, they're not playing them, right? This is where you get the balance and the rule kind of how it's going to happen. When they release a rule set, so clearly dev wounds were when they would design the game were meant to be mortal wounds. Then they looked at the balance and the power levels in the game.
They thought, how can we fix that? And it's two related with different things. And they've changed the rules to affect power. And now you've got the knock on effective.
So these in the lion having some weird rules. They really do much. So a lot of the death wound, the watch in the dark, used to give you the right to which now it's a once per game, 4 up against mortal wounds. Now that's really good for those like little sniper shots things.
But against dev wounds, which is the main source, or was the main source of mortal wounds. Absolutely good for those. So Alan Percival, who's I'm quite a big in the dark angel community, took the lion's tooth on the GT. And his feedback was just, he was difficult to run anyway.
He's a lot of points and he's he's a melee based. So he has to play him really well. But now because the dev wounds just go through, he's not really a viable model anymore. Which is a shame because we here on his great, I think, sends these models are really cool.
The income of Ukraine as I told them. Yeah, sure. You should talk about that. I'm going to do it.
Yeah, it's a good. I think that's why I could check them, Isaac. But I said I hate the. So Isaac couldn't quite remember the name of one of my models, which is called the Incarn.
And he refers to it as the Ukraine. And this particular model is quite frustrating to play against. And in one game we had recently, Isaac, quite loudly in the club just stated, I hate the Ukraine. I don't for the record.
But I think that I'll do that better. Thank you. I'm not the record. Yeah.
But I think that I think next patch, I would just like to see a couple of tweaks to those more wounds things. So those rules that were meant to be there for a reason and a flavourful are kind of still there. And it's I'd be confident that that'll fix that. Either with points or rules.
Yeah, because the line drops by points. Yeah. Deathwing drop by points. It works.
Even when the codeless comes out, it just gets switched to something else. That's the thing we don't know what the codex is going to bring on lock and with them changing much from the reans though. But with the different attachments and things, they can easily introduce new rules like that. So I mean, with death, what we're talking about, with Dark Angel was getting their run codex.
There could be one that the lion leads a swad of. Yeah. Well, the oyster isn't it? Yeah.
And then being very cooperative is irrelevant then because he's got a unit. He's then easy to run because there's a gun line in front of him. So he kind of indirectly has shooting. I just hold the scope of the lot.
They have, because I imagine because Dark Angel doesn't care else to spring. So those books have been written. Oh, yeah. So I'm hoping that they don't drop.
I'm not going to have, but a lot of the lighting in this doesn't really work anymore. So you have the dates, you know, it's the app that's going to be right. Whereas I think the codexes that come out later on are going to be pretty good. I think 10,000 like chaos are really fun.
They're not just they're pretty good, but it's so fluffy. It's really nice to be like, I'm going to get better. I failed three cultists just exploded because they tried to make a pact with the gods that thought in that. And that's that's really fun.
They feel fun. And that's one of the things I really like about the way they've changed characters and now they leave. Yeah. It feel like for all, you've got your war boss leading your your, your mob of Ben Art Knobs going in with the outdoors and just blending everything inside feels a lot better than the war bosses.
So just, next to me. Yeah. He fails to charge. He's taking them on from the sideline.
Come on, let's get in there. No. He's in the mix. Come on, I think that's nice.
Crumping. Abadon leading legionaries is my favorite. Like the idea of this kind of like, Primark-sized. It's never been running around with his little mates and power armor on the 32 mill bases.
It's really interesting. I'm just lobbing them in. But yeah, Abadon the 10-man seven-day squad. That's what he came for me.
That's like, when I think of 40k, I think it's animators and you're a belial leading 10-day. It's just cool. It is way cooler. And there's loads of like, modeling projects in that.
You can make your own just there in a whatever they're called. Yeah, I have been and you're a little retin' used. Yeah, my bringings to the fair. I've got a death shroud in there.
I've got a rubric marine. I've got a full-learn. I've got a couple of just heron models. I've just kept bashing some iron warrior ones.
And I've got a demon, like a tourniquet with a demon head. So that's been really fun. I'm having good swag for that, you know, some of those. And let me go in and get by and imagine.
But I've really liked that. And it's much better now that I've been on his in that unit of, you know, the Black Legion's a lead to all of the chapters. That's a lead to other legions rather. Yeah, it's cool.
That's my goal when I get, when we finish here and I've got home, I've got to turn the war boss in Megarama kit into a big mech with a dust and force field. I went and I was fiddling through my bits box yesterday to find all the little pieces for it. I've got to sprue you out on the knife. You got a good force field?
No. I didn't know. I couldn't do what I was supposed to do today. But immediately I was like, if you've got all those, like, Christmas baubles that you can put your own things inside of you, there's already like a half-spit.
Yeah. You could, I mean, have got some, maybe a good bit of a fling. I've got a fling down to something like that. Yeah.
Could do a little force field. I think you get some of those off-active things. Like clear plastic and they kind of look like a force field, like segmented, like, sort of the hailing bombs. Yeah.
Even if you just had it like on a shoulder, so it looked like something made to connection. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe I will.
Yeah. The last one I did, I got a little drum. He's got a towel drum flying up his backpack. That's cool.
He's got a very old shield drum. And he's turned it into the custom force. You're like a lead on it almost, wouldn't you? You're going to get changed.
No, literally. That's good. Best thing about the box is that you can just... Every game is not good.
Yeah. I've got these big, big, big, massive, rings, send it to a truck or a battle wagon. Not kill rig? No, kill rigs and only only own two kill rigs.
And unfortunately, they're not what they once were. Oh. Hopefully, when the don't interrupt, I can bring them back just at the amount of kill rigs. I have an unrelated point to make about 10th.
You can stir it on this. Yeah. You know, we're saying how 10th has felt in a lot of ways, more fun than 19th. And I reckon, again, credit to G-dubs, right?
Tactical machines. Tactical machines. It's been fun. I can't say this.
It's so flexible. Another. So random. But they feel so...
I don't know. It's just fun. I was reading this morning though that people have been up here to fix it, now that they're kind of the metrics that are settling the list to settle it. Yeah, I was going to say, you might plan now.
That is to ignore all of that fun. And I push into the finding of the five points in the win. Because I was going to give a bit of context of what that actually means. So there is a primary mission and it's like points on the table that you've got to hold and you score points for those.
But there are also secondary missions that in 9th edition, you pick them at the start of the game and armies had specific ones that they could do. And if you, when you built your army, you had to build two-year-olds. It's really tightly integrated. You build an army to score those secondary missions.
Just a super efficient engine. Yeah. It was fun as well. It was fun.
It gave you a time though. If you didn't know how to play competitively, you could just go straight up and have the models. Yeah. It's like with the blood end, if you didn't have the speed, then you're one of them.
Or a massive possession for chaos, which you couldn't buy outside of the start collecting box, which they stopped producing. And that's a bit of context right now. So going into 10th, you can now do either. So you can either do the fix, kind of link your army build to the second-year's approach, which is becoming more common as of last weekend or last month.
But there's also the tactical where a player, which is really flexible. Yeah. The more fun way. You have a deck of cards that you shuffle, and you draw two at the start of your turn, and they're what you have to achieve.
And they can be things like being in the corners, doing the middle. Yeah, that one. Yeah. Killing some characters.
Yeah. It's a cool point. The thing that I don't like about tactical is assassinating. Bring it down a perfect example of that.
When your opponent just rolls up and you've set up to kill three characters, you merc one of them, and the other two, they make the save and the lesson one win. You've then scored a certain number of problems. Yeah, yeah. And assassinations gone.
So you've put all that effort into setting up. I'm going to score a big on a Saturday. You lose to variance. Well, I hate that.
In our game, I had the problem of treating a Saturday as if it should be a fixed thing that I was keeping. Yeah. And I played three turns with a Saturday. I just kept thinking, odds-wise, you should have died.
You were rolling while I was rolling poorly. And actually playing more tactical secondaries. I drew what the next card would have been. It was an easy score.
And the key thing you learned in that game was, and this is like the evolution of being efficient in scoring points and playing ultimately was, don't keep setting up. I can't absolutely guarantee. Because you might score the five points, but then in that case, you didn't score that for two turns. You had to take three turns to score it, and you effectively lost five to 10 points.
I have three points in the game. So it's a big learning curve. Yeah, I had the same thing. And it's changed.
It was in the 1K tournament. I was just holding onto things. But I should have been able to score that hand. It's changed how I build lists now.
So all my localists have two or three five-man squad stormboys ready to just beat Dragon for toggle I'm as a basically signals engage just when they need to be somewhere. I'm going to be someone on the board better. And it feels like attacks because two five-man squad stormboys don't really do anything. So I'll pick up a back line, you know, cultist or Gretchen or whatever.
But they're not swinging the game any other way than they need to be nine-inch to record. 20 points are there. Yeah, 65 points. Yeah, because I mean, we've got access to chaos, nurglings, 35 points.
So I've got a unit of nurglings now, I'm like this. They did scrap the Vindicarassas in my game on Thursday. It was a really pathetic fight until the Vindicar. But damage three pistols, stretch your upside in nurgling.
It felt traumatic. It felt like a lot of Q4. 39, three, no, no, no, no. They're spawn exploded.
But they dropped in on the back corner. And then it was like, that's my 35 points. And for 35 points, that doesn't feel like a bad trade. But if you've not got that 35 point deep strike unit.
Yeah, we've got 40 point Gretchen who will sit on home and get to the pharmacy in there. In fact, the 40 point Gretchen was getting up. I consider putting them into a truck every game to just drive on to the objective. And then it'll be there.
But 130 points to score something on investigating signals when I've got a fast army anyway. But then they can't get to the corners. Well, what happens if you investigate turn one? You're fucked.
Yeah, you are. I've got to race a truck. Well, we ended the day, John, you were stood like a chard in the middle of the board, weren't you? Like flexing with your toughness.
And then you try to investigate. And we're like measuring out. Can you get to any of these corners in the board? No, no, no.
That is, I think, definitely the worst secondary. Because so much of the game is played around. Get to the objectives that are here, here, here and here. And if you draw that first time, you're never going to get it.
Because very few lists are fast enough. You should, if you, well, this is like the evolution of understanding tactical second-classising. Because the first turn, if you can't get to two corners, you deploy wrong. Because everyone can get to two corners.
So that does depend on terrain set as well. A little bit. I would say 95% time everyone should get to. So that's four points.
And that's absolutely fine on any secondary. In fact, there was an analysis done on scoring second-grays. And the average is two and a half of the victory points per secondary tactical second-view score. Then Goon Hammer did it.
I love them very good. So that is some. So if you're beating two and a half points per secondary, you're not done? Yeah.
So there's variants in it. Like if you're winning really high then, it's kind of not quite the case. But there's an average if you can score anything, frankly, three to five points you do it well on every second. But then you wait to score every second.
But if you draw that fourth turn and you've got a low model camp army, you're kind of taking the midboard, it's just not sureable. And that's a ditch one. You can get rid of it for CP, but then that might be part of the plan. I just think that it's one of those.
If you've got a lot of units, a lot of fast stuff, brilliant. Like if I was running loads of warms and raptors, but then you can't run loads of warms and raptors just for one second- So I look at it the other way, like for my flimsy, not in the face, not in the face, LDR. Those are very good summary capacity plays. Those tactical seconds are really easy.
But then the stuff that's easy, like actually for all of your armies, like tougher midboard kind of push armies, I struggle with taking objectives off people, going and standing in the middle, like area denial. I've really, really done that. Absolutely hate it. What I'm going to put like five one-wind toughness three bodies in the middle.
It's literally going to commit suicide in the middle and hopefully score five points. And that's I think the new thing with 10th is you're kind of with secondaries like that, you actually make a toss up of, oh, I can score that, but I will lose the unit next turn. Whereas with ninth because you could build around secondaries, you could score them and it was more about putting you something where you're playing your game and you were able to play your game and your terminators were protecting the swishy, whatever it was. And you're like, I'm not black-aging, you take the midboard, I really struggled in missions that didn't have a midboard, because then you ended up with those terminators on a flank and then everyone ignored them.
Yeah, you had a decisive wheel. Yeah, and I've got a thousand points that you had a dart, you sat on a coffee table. It's really, really tight doing that. Yeah, it is everywhere now.
Yeah, sorry, your terminator's there. Your terminator's there. I'm going to be as far away as possible. Whereas with a midboard, put right in front of the middle and you go, something that's going to go to middle, I'm going to have that.
Is that okay? Now, I do like that it isn't like that. You shouldn't, those murder balls, which kind of do still exist. That's how one you should ever surrender.
Yeah. But I hope you don't want to respond, because I did with Death Watch when people were figuring out like 90 more wins in a turn. The flip side of that is to get that damage output, you probably lose two crisis suits at this. Yeah.
And they're not that tough, because they're vehicles. How many CPUs? Like two or three CP? Two or three CP?
Yeah. I mean, still two. Yeah, yeah. It's big in 10.
I'm doing that 10 one. Well, you probably are, because you can take an ethereal. You can take an ethereal and just generate a CP. You can do it off the board.
Yeah, so you can use abilities while you're interested to reserve like that. And the ethereal is taking kind of four up. But if it's in the transport, it can't. Yeah.
What the fuck? Yeah. It's just that that was the whole discussion we had. That doesn't make any sense.
But I'm definitely taking the theory of just going to sit in space. Yeah. On that note, well, the game desperately doesn't need to make you, because there are, I was reading on Reddit the other day. There's always, there's always some troll that's trying to break or twist something.
OK, but with Hellblasters and their ability to shoot on death, which I do run to Hellblasters when I do play Space Marines. I don't like that as a function. I'm running it because why wouldn't you? Power.
Well, on Overwatch. So the Overwatch strat states until the end of the phase, you are hitting on sixes. But most people are playing it that you shoot the Hellblasters on their normal ballistic steel. Because they're saying, do these networks?
Because normally the rules come which they did on how to phase abilities will pick that up. Hellblasters will be right leading a fact. It's all just a rewrite. The rule is it doesn't specify phase.
It says you shoot. It says you shoot. It's not saying you're in the shooting phase where the outer phase will pick it up. It's written like Dark Packs.
Yeah, Dark Packs, Dark. I mean, Dark Packs should, because that's your whole algorithm. But the Hellblasters, by not saying shooters if you're wearing a shooting phase, doesn't leave that gray area of. They're better shooting on death than.
You know what? Because it incentivizes you to use hazardous on Overwatch so that they get to shoot twice. It's weird. Is it still that way in the Codex?
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's not been changed. Tabletop tactics were not aggressive. They were very angry when they were playing that New Marines Codex game.
And even though they were benefiting from it and cheering when like four dice to hazardous. Straight away, they were like, it is stupid that this really exists. No, don't get it in the next. They were all getting generous.
Even if you have to take a hazardous role, because you don't have to take a hazardous role. Like don't mind if the idea is, oh, you can chance this. But you're taking another hazardous role. And then I want to call another guy.
Because the idea is, you know, your guns start to overcharge. You pull the trigger again for one last shot, which is full of the trigger, but more of a chance of. So if there was more of a negative side, I'd be keen. It's weird that there is no FAQ, but there is this really weird convoluted rules commentary pack that just add way more words to it.
It's like just a simple yes or no with some rules. Like the the the out face ability stuff. And so the shooting face stuff in pistols and big guns have a tire estate in your shooting face. You can do this, which means on the Overwatch, there is now the San Pigueti in some tournaments are ruling that you can use a pistol in another watch when you get into MLA because you can shoot a pistol in engagement range.
And you can shoot out of combat for big guns now, but another tournament is a really good one. So it is now a bit of a, no, Wild West, but it's kind of TOs and as long as tournaments are playing, you know, it's clear from the offset. But it just feels like one FAQ just had neat enough to some of the bits would be quite nice. That's a funny game though, isn't it?
TOs, you know, different tournaments have slightly different rules. Let's talk about the one, but that's how it's going. Oh, yeah, we went to one, the first one of 10 for this and for us. They ruled it where abilities where you can reroll or hit, they ruled it that you can only reroll failed hits because there are abilities where even if you are successful, you want to fish for sixes to get extra bonuses.
They ruled it so you couldn't do that, which is stupid, because I think if you want to be an idiot or run that risk of fishing and roll nothing but ones and more more fails, then do it. I wasn't specifically off the moment though. Well, I would say it was indicative of that TA not being that experienced because it felt like he'd been, he basically went to the tournament, got kind of fucked over by it the moment and he was like, I see, I rubbish. But he impacted it with that ruling.
Spacing means went super strong, he just made them even weaker. And it just felt like a bit of a, frankly, an immature kind of reaction didn't have the whole context of power across the game in mind to the tournament. It's the classic sort of taking your local matter as an indication of the wide world. Yeah.
Like we've had locally armies spiking and doing really well that in the matter, we've had armies that are fantastic in the wide of meta and we've just been doing nothing locally, but when you're looking at a wide meta, the people using those things are far more experienced. I know exactly how to exploit it and how to work on it. Whereas like Genesee look up, we've got one Genesee look up there locally, who isn't as experienced and said, like all of the movement stuff is just good player. Yeah, there's the rules really, really well played in that often.
Doesn't play in that often. Doesn't play in the level at the tournament players. Not a message, I suppose. So you don't have the problem with it.
I think it's just an instant loss or loss before the balance changes because it hasn't got the experience of doing those things. Yes. And I think that that's one of the reasons when you have, when it comes to looking at certain tournaments for a win rate. Doesn't always necessarily work because if you rock up to a tournament, like, you know, a lot of the local tournament that happens to break the 20 player limit or whatever's been set, but it's the local club plus friends and you rock up your sweaty meta, you know, El Daror, wherever list.
Yeah. And you absolutely annihilate everybody at the tournament. Yeah. Your win rate.
It's just an entirely theoretical scenario. No, but I mean, I was on the receiving end of, you know, I mean, I went to that difficult tournament with deaf wing just after it was the last weekend of night finishing before they lost their transhuman. And, you know, and you did UK fit. Yeah.
Very good result. It was a good result. But I, that first game, my opponent scored a single primary point. I've never played a game that one sided at all.
No, I'm not wearing it. No, no, no, no, no. It was a college. But what I mean is that I've never played against, in that one sided, it was very indicative of that meta going up against the player, a less experienced player who, because I brought, I've tuned the list that I knew how to use, he lost really badly.
And then I played something in second rounds that was more experienced than me, you know, talking about London GT experiences and stuff and all the chess options I wanted to go into because that could be a podcast in itself. Thruy shade. And, but I, you know, I lost that game and I lost my 20 points. And that was a think of representation of when you've got a semi-decent player or, you know, don't get to lose new with a meta list, you end up with these stupid spikes that just shouldn't really occur.
Yeah. And definitely more good at that point. And you always get, it's relatively regarded as a strength of the army. The player will have more influence on the result than the army at 89, I think as well, with the most recent dates, like, unloads with Orcs, all of the, the win rates, they're about the same, but the lists that are doing well are all wildly different.
Yeah. That's good. So there's like an internal meta as well. Yeah.
Because there are some, like within the index, there was one list that was running like 15 megatubs and then there was another one that was running the Gorgonorps. No one's running the Gorgonors since they're terrible. But now they've got a point to drop, they've got some shooting, you can run them now. And it's, it's also that it's like, it's not just the faction that makes the, yeah, the mix of the race.
Yeah. But a lot of stuff that goes into it. I think people look, I, I think there's a bit too much attention to pay to win rates, especially when you step back from the stats and think about, you know, what is, because we all get quite, especially recently there, that'll be in too strong, but you compare like a 58% win rate to a full day, so win rate. And look at what that really means at 100 games, it's 10 games difference.
It's not like no one's got a chance to beat them type of stuff. The problem is when you get those stronger armies with a good player, that's when it becomes impossible. Yeah. So the good player has more influence than the army, the faction.
I think that, the London Gorgonorps, you look at the two chaos lists that made the shadow rounds. One was this cultist, the cultist, cultist, spam list. And the other was chosen and rhinos and chaos lords and walk talents. And they were massively, massively different and played in massively different ways.
And you've got two clearly very, very good players that have used the codex in two different interpretations and ended up with really good results. And I think that's when you've got a codex that is really well internal balance that you can crack out. I think that's actually a sign of really looking at a game. Yeah.
Is that there are multiple lists from a single faction that can be well, rather than it just be like the cookie cutter. Yeah. And that's probably the reason. Eldar, I think the start was that you could look at a list and...
That's 90. Yeah. It's just spinners. Yeah.
But you look at every list, there'll be three of those, three of that, three of this. And then every list had like one rogue unit. You couldn't quite understand why it was there, but the player did understand. And now, I mean, I was the wargaming live, I was watching the other day, talking to the final chaos lessons Eldar.
And the guy, I can't remember his name that runs it, was saying that he's checked. I just, his local shop was selling four Celeste models, the Demon, the Slesh Demon on the Friday. And the... Before the tournament, before the tournament.
And they're four in staff and he checked the other websites, I think he said. And by Sunday, when that cosplayer made the final round with Celeste in the list, they were not left in stock. And that's really silly because that's somebody going, well, that really good player won with that model. So it must be the model, not...
I mean, it's most of my background in tournament plays from card games. And you see the exact same thing. You'll see like somebody wear a card on with a rogue deck and the card will spike by 300% in price. Yeah.
And it's just the way it goes. It's already standardised. Yeah. Even looks the top player is kind of how do I do better?
Yeah. Yeah. It makes like list building that easier. Oh, okay.
What are the... That are... That's list one. Okay.
So there's clearly something in there and then you try and copy that. And fail. I'm going to... We're all in there.
Go back to the changes that 10th edition has made. I feel like you get a lot more of those little like modular plug-in parts of an army. Like I was saying in the day about 10, you've got the insane output from the crisis. But then you're also a bit dark strider leading squad pathiators.
Dc5 models. With the... ...during the reduces challenge range, you've now got a unit that essentially can either quarter, if not the maybe a third of the board. And that's 200 points.
So you can just plug that into a list. And you know it's going to do the job it needs to do. And then you build the rest of the list to support that. So yeah, I like that.
It's the internal balance. Yeah, yeah. I think that that means a cursive cultist. We like that one of the best models games I've ever produced.
They are awesome. I remember looking at them when I was first painting them going, oh this is cloth. That's skin. I was not fair.