Hello and welcome to Turbo Table Top Number 4. This time we are talking about Team Storming Up. I am joined once again by Isaac, Oli and Steve. Alright.
Steve, you're gonna have to explain things because we don't know. What is a team's tournament in? All hand the 40,000. What is a team Steve?
What is a team? Well, we can't decide. We're teaming. We're going on.
There's no I see. So in this team tournament that we're playing, you've got five people on each team. So it's four of us here today. Everyone picks a faction.
You can't duplicate back. So you can't have two lots of space and means, for example. And there is a very complicated pairings process to get the five on five kind of organised for who's fighting who. There is some strategy to it.
So you try and watch the squad as when the pairing process to get favourable matchups. And it's all with a view to scoring in a slightly different way in Warhammer compared to normal. So normally you do like a 0-100 thing to win your match in singles. But in teams you do a points differential.
So for every five points you win by, you get a point or score. Anyway, the scores range for this way. The scores range for 20-0. So if I win by 50 points, I'm going to score 20 and my points score is 0.
If we have a very close game and say 51-49, there's only a two point differential. Less than five points, so that's going to be scored at 10-10. And it makes for some very interesting results. And it makes for every single point you score, even if you're losing, matters massively for the team.
And it's just a fun team concept for Warhammer. How often are teams running? I don't feel like I really saw the team's stuff during ninth. Obviously there was the WTC which is like Team UK and everything.
But apart from that, the split and decaught do them in... This is their first teams tournament. I've kept an eye out because we talked about doing months and months before this one happened. Before we signed up for this one, they are a lot rarer than singles tournaments and the singles tournaments, but they do crop up.
I would say they've become more popular. I think the last couple of years, especially the World Team Championships last year, got quite a lot of attention in Warhammer media, whatever that's worth. And you've got a lot more people going... So, background, I suppose.
I think there's a lot more people playing Warhammer 40k. There's a lot more singles tournaments. Yeah, there's a lot more singles tournaments. So you've got generally a foundation of a lot of players.
And with the team tournament being fundamentally fun, so you're going as a team, you're going with your mates, there's a bit of prep you can do, piss taking about, he's going to score the most of these points and all this sort of stuff. We already know. Yeah, and you... I think it's me.
And I think this year, I feel like the last six months, I've seen a lot of coverage of teams tournaments more so than the previous six months. So I'm not surprised to see us going to one. It feels like a natural evolution of us all the way. How many teams are there?
I think five. I think there are five teams. So there's no work. They need an even number.
Might be six then. Oh, it's probably... Yeah, it's five in the lesson. Plus this.
Yeah, the app went down before we could get our sign up on. So it's still figuring stuff out there. I think it might be five in us. That would be six for those of you looking to piss matter on myself.
So 13... Is that about the right? Five tables. No, 15 tables.
15 tables. 15 tables. 15 tables. 15 tables.
Yeah, that's two beers you fed me on. I'm in an empty stomach. We're off for them now. So there are six teams not including us.
I'm not the eight teams. Holy shit. So 20 tables. That's pretty big.
That's huge. Yeah. Nice. There's a lot more to be left.
The fanic sets in. That's... Like a singles tournament, there'll be a range of players. I think there'll be some people who just want a laugh and they just come along with a random collection of people who I would put us in a bit of a middle bracket.
We like to pretend we're interested in good at the matter, but we're probably in the middle. We're the lucky chance at that. The lucky bar though is a few. The lucky bar though is a few.
Enthusiastic amateurs. And then you'll probably get a couple of sweaty teams who are... Yeah, that sounds negative. A couple of teams full of people who are very experienced with tournaments.
And the did-caught one, I think historically, has often been used by some reasonably big names for practice. A couple of the guys we've played at the did-caught, which is a really, really good tournament. Really, really good to go there. Yeah, Mike was very good here.
We've played people who are practicing for the first time. It's a really, really good tournament. Really good to go there. Yeah, Mike was very good here.
We've played people who are practicing for the first time. The first time we were practicing for London GT. It was a big name, so we found out. Yeah, then they went a couple of the world like, top.
They were so sick. They were so French chap. Clementon Tournard, I think. He was spacial at that tournament.
He's gone on to be one of the best-held players in the world. He was a country GT. He's probably played him a bit. Or in the same tournament, same play.
He might have come sick, then I might have come fifth in that tournament. It's not getting a couple of numbers. He was playing a week. Clementon's tournament isn't going to go by that number.
Yeah, I mean, that's going to be a lot of tables. Just from a tournament audience. They've moved to a big venue. So it used to be in the town hall they held their local games tonight, India.
But the last one I went to was in a bunch of big venues. It's really cool. It was nice. It's kind of seen regular.
I've looked at the list and there's a couple of names we recognize, but there's usually quite a few regulars that just got one. And a few of the guys are part of UKTC teams that kind of train together for big events. So they're usually, I mean, sit-sadow. He's one of the big players.
He's done historically quite well at London GT and things, I think. And his son, his name escapes me. Byron, who I played before, he's really good. So they're asked some quite big names that pop up.
It's nice at those small tournaments that they're not overran with really experienced, brilliant players that you just have a really kind of fun time playing because you know, you're playing checkers and they're playing chess. But it's nice that there are a couple of people there that you walk away from a game thinking I've learned a lot from this experience, even if it's taken me to drive home and, you know, six-paracetamol to get down from the migraine to recover and reflect. How many games do we have that day? Three.
Okay. So we've got something three rounds. Three rounds, yeah. One day, three rounds, two days, ten to five rounds.
Yeah. I think it was intense. I think I won my first three, so I was happy showing up on the second day, but there were some guys that lost the first three and just dropped the second day. Yeah.
Yeah. That was standard. Especially if you're travelling, I can understand, I don't think it's necessarily in the spirit of it because then you end up with clunky buy rounds. We would buy a fortune.
I think that enough people dropped. Oh, Michael, Michael, Michael, I ended up playing. He snapped in here. Yeah.
And, you know, again, really good to go with it. I've always meant this, you know, fun experience. That did stop. That's fantastic.
Well, it's important. So now that you're about to eat the banana, you want to tell us how the parents have done work. So we've just, just before we started to record this, we had a little practice pairing around. So personally, I've watched a few pairings like at the WTC when it's been streamed online.
You've never done it. And it's quite a complicated thing, but as we've just got to decide, I've had the wrong first time, but effectively, if you sit there with a menu of five factions, say five teammates, you secretly put one up for the fender first. So I might put my defender list up secretly to all eight. He's my opponent.
And then he puts two teams off his list forward as attackers. And then I get to pick which attacker hits my defender. The attacker doesn't know what they're going up against. The one submit to armies doesn't know what the one is.
Yeah, good clarification. And then so that's decided a pair. And then you flip it round. So Ollie will put forward a secret defender.
Now I've got two attackers to put up against him at this point. And I know he's put forward, you know, one of his four remaining. So I'm trying to work out how and what's the strategy as he got here? Is he just yoloing out and throwing anyone in?
Has he got some lists that are, you know, good. I just sound like I've got it. Has he got some lists in his team that are just really kind of mid strong score against everything? You know, there is some subtlety and strategy to it.
And, you know, so I would simply put my two attacks up, he picks one, and we continue until all five in each team are paired up. And theoretically, you should end up with three good match ups, a mid-range match up and a bad one just because of the way that the order works. When you put things out there, it also affects your list building slightly. Because it's open list, isn't it?
Yeah. So we'll be able to see the list before we play. So we'll know if somebody's saved a tower with their bring in hammerheads, you know, we're not going to put the nights up against them. But if they're heading into the crisis suits and the ghost gills, which they probably will be, then nights is maybe a better show against them.
So you can work it that way a little bit. The kind of top levels of this, I've seen podcasts debrief serve the World Team Championships where they specifically talked about the parents process. And in the recent WTC, you had basically the two best kind of teams, Poland and the states up against each other. Players skill across the two teams, identical pretty much.
But Poland absolutely pasted the states on the pairings through whatever strategy they had. And they won the final of WTC convincingly almost entirely down the pairings process. So they were able to maneuver list selection, faction selection to get good match ups and one convincing one. And then yeah, they do.
Then it feeds into how you play that game. Because if you know if you're in a tough match up, you're going to play a more reserved game and make your opponent work for the high score rather than trying to outscore them. I think it's one of the very things when there's a teams event when you get all those lists that come out. Because at the real top level people are writing lists for far more specific reasons than links to what you just outlined than we are.
And you look at some of the mad lists that people put together and you think you wouldn't take that to a single storm in a month or Sunday because it's so finely geared towards I will kill every infantry model on the board where I will put down every tank unit on the board. And it's just a really great thing to look at how people have really geared and whole lists around a function within a team that makes that pairings process a lot more complicated. There's real layers of nuance to it and frankly it's going to go way over ahead. And we're not going to pay a huge amount of attention to it.
We're just going to try and pick good things. We're just going to have a balanced list. Well, I've been, that's in the August a little bit and I have found they actually have not secretly because they've always been a fairly tough army but they have a lot of extra toughness. So everyone knows it's quick on all these T73 wins.
For five up in the game, they're hard units to shift and you've got straight up to the mind of the wind. Then you've also got your regular knobs but what's in them? They're not just one to the wind, T5, two-wounds. Then you put them in a truck, protect them from shooting for turn.
You've got mega knobs that are T6, three-wounds, two-up, but custom force building there. You can resurrect one. You've suddenly got like a whole bunch of anvil units that you can maneuver the rest of the army around. And I think that's probably where my list building is going to focus.
It's having these rather than having six units of all these and six trucks that I'm going to flip the board. We're still going to have some of that but we're going to have these units that can sit in the mid against pretty much anything and take a whole load of punishment and still hit back. When they have to come up and dig me out, we're going to have that wire turn. We've chosen them with eight knobs that are left with 36 power core attacks.
We're going to dent something. In that metric, that's how it changes the list building because I probably wouldn't take all the high value units into a single storm and I'm just going to have 100 boys. Can you come with my T5? Your question about balance is, we were chatting about this on WhatsApp this week or either you asked it and then we all completely ignored you for the first time.
I remember that there's a message to the Polish did and create a list like a guard list that's a really great counter to one specific as today's list or something really nuanced to concated and we won't work. I was saying to everyone this week, we should focus on all things. One from the absolute list, so pick something new and better because it's cool and hard because we won't be able to get it set. Number two is just have a strong overall list that you're comfortable with.
Number three is be familiar with the missions that they're going to set out in the tournament pack because there's like 10, 20 points on the board to win all those if you are or not familiar. And then the fourth one is a plan of action into certain common lists. So we know there's going to be able to see us every blah blah blah. We all need to have at least half an idea of we're going to win into them.
This is how we're going to do it and if we lose into them this is how we do it gracefully and score as many points as we can. I think between us as well we've got enough, we've got a few armies between us that we have a rough idea of kind of what a lot of stuff does. There shouldn't be too many surprises which is nice. It's not like we've all got one army and we just, we're just going to guessing so that should be quite nice for the kind of pairing process.
But you know, like you said, we're not, we're not after thinking of new things for the matter. I don't think anyone is buying boxes and boxes of new things. I've just bought some new accosted cultists but that was, you know, they're good. They are good.
I'm buying a rhino. But yeah, you need a rhino these days. So we're not interested in going out and buying 20 boxes and nurglings to have those little, yeah, if I put stories, we're not looking at having the most geared and tweaked list ever. It's just from stuff we have what balanced good list.
Can we play that we are not going to go to have a rebad to time with. I think it's all we've already asked. Pretty much. Yeah, let's see what we did with what we got.
Never gone in for the win. I don't think so. I brought 45 deaflings to a tournament. I was plugging for it.
That was a sweat. That was my, the sweatiest list I ever ran. 20 deaf with deafling with, that's a deathling with, that's a thumbs and thumb shields with an uninteractive games. Oh, I didn't even play the game really.
Move things forward and then just fall over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. For us, once I'm taking arms, it's four people vulnerable. So we're not going down that room. Yeah, just have fun.
It does help that I think I've got 7,500 points of chaos. You've got, yeah, it wasn't like 6,000 points of walks. No, no. So we do have a lot to draw on, but no one has got those weird spammy like, these are my 30, you know, chosen, I've got my 10 unit, 10, you know, or ridiculous numbers of rubrics or whatever it is.
I am spamming trucks. You bet you were not playing this. I've got loads of trucks and I've got my four trucks and I've got a fifth one to be kick-bash on the way. You watch there be some ultra sweat in one scene we're playing, they'll have listened to this podcast and we've shot ourselves in the foot.
So this needs to drop up in the week after lists to submit a job. I don't have that sort of sketch. So from what you've learned from the single-stonners that we've done in 10th, what knowledge you transfer in over for teams that stay the same? We talked about what the differences are.
What is the familiarity with mission? Is it one that I don't think many people, most people pay attention to? I'd have paid zero attention. So there's this real points differential in any game based on the mission.
So for example, I played a mission the other day which was reinventing my old accent, I had to stand in the middle and get shot and all of my stuff is really fragile. So I've got to play that in a specific way. And if that comes up, we need to bear that in mind and work out how we can score points on it. So mission is...
Do we know the missions? I think Isaac's. I'm looking never see if we do have them. So that's not like another thing about that.
We know that it's on that mission. We don't want to put you against the other shooting army. I'd say we're deployment. It's a factor definitely.
We're going to deployment. Your orcs are on a field day. Longboard. It's a lot of room.
So it's supposed to flow. Taking hold on pro-targets. It's critical you understand what the mission's about because that's... Really weird one though.
Hold one, hold more, kill, kill more. And again, like Eldar, fragile. With the personal foe, you score the killing on your first turn. Yes.
Which is insane. So don't die at all. Take that squad, let's go for that. Yes.
Firing kill one unit, you've got some points. Big low model count, tough durable units is perfect for that. So for example, I'm playing Muzzy on Monday for that. And he's got a T10, T12 Knights with OC8 minimum.
And I'm like, well, he's going to win the hold more. And I'm Eldar, so as soon as he sees me, he's going to kill me. He's just going to be really hard mission for me to play. But I'm aware of that going in.
I'm not just going to blindly stand on points and die. And that's important for me to pick which matchup we want you in as well, isn't it? We don't want you in something where you're going to get shot off the board. Yeah.
And I think playing mid-life played, I mean, I've got a second one on the tournament for the singles tournament we're going to join up. Sites of power. Yes. Yeah, I'll play that with running a list with my only characters from my dark communes and my big classic courses blobs.
They're not really good for getting on subjectors quickly. There's a lot of models and if you can't get on there, it's a bit tricky. So I've reflected in kind of what I'm going to a tournament that has a mission that requires characters to stand on objectives. Do I drop one, two of laterades and bring two castlords from my chosens?
So I've got four characters that I need to play around with. So I'm scoring there. Because that could have swum the game if I just had characters on objectives. I think writing a list for missions is a big part of the game that I hadn't really...
I was kind of aware it was a thing. Like I listened to my castor and I got to write your list around the terrain pack the tournament has and the missions and I think, let's he hell? That's refined. I know that definitely would have been brilliant in 19-2 play a place to write.
Because you just barely got one side of the table. And then there's my big space where I can safely walk into and survive and anything that comes in their dice. But knowing that that mission requires characters, which I hadn't thought of that when I wrote my list, I should have more than two units that are a bit clunky to manoeuvre. So playing around that I think that when the writing goes list to think about what the missions and can we score them?
What deployments are there and is it going to be really good for you to wa first turn or not? And I don't know what to do. Does Wa first turn ever again? No, on something like corner of employment, if I'm going first, there's an argument for it.
If it happened at the one K-12 minute on playing against the Imperial Fists, they just deployed on the back half of their table. I've got twice as far to go even on the corner of employment to get to them, of getting shot. So you're setting your stage in for a second turn while. So you cage your employment, cage your first turn movement and then punch in.
You can have it. Yeah, and commit as much violence as you can. So they've got less to eat you back with after your wa's run out. The other thing that I would transfer apart from like generic stuff like familiarity with the army is adapting to the meta.
So for example, as an elder player, I've got a really strong unit called the Altar of K in my big monster. It runs out, made a lot of punch and stuff in the face as well. But there's a number of things in the meta with devastating wounds which worry me, which probably mean I wouldn't take it. Because he would be alive, he's like a 350 point liability.
So I think adapting your list to things that are probably going to be at the tournament and will probably be shooting you or punching you and being in the arse. I think you need to adapt to that a little bit. I think it's good to know from this building, they are playing, Grand Floor closed. Yeah, so Grand Kid T-seats.
So that's big because that means that things like you're a cursed cultist and you're chosen. You can be super aggressive as long as you're bouncing from runes. The rune almost gives me, I might think about now taking Abaddon. Because I can run him without terminators, I can loan up him for one CP essentially with Nurgle and I can ping him around runes.
And that's big because he's a massive force multiplier with that four up in the bomb and his reroll hits for four tweens and things. And he's also still, even though he's not the ninth murder machine that I knew and loved, he's still an animal. Like he will still give characters like Motharian a run for their money. So that's big I think for thinking actually.
You might not have to stand in the open, you might have a cheeky rune to hide in with your switch E3 bodies. And that'll depend on the terrain stuff. So some of the runes mixed. Yeah, some of the runes will have objectives we can sit in.
Oh my god, and there's WTC. I remember looking at these sentences before, I remember this. So it could be any literally any of the three most popular terrain formats. But Grand Floor closed gives you your melee options or a little bit more durable metal.
Your orcs can hide, you don't just have to stand and get shot. Yeah, like I can get out of the truck into a ruin and then charge through it against lists like town, you can position yourself. So you're in the ruin, gives you an extra inch on that charge, but if you fail the charge, you're not just out in the open, waiting to get picked up in there responding time. Charging from ruins actually is pretty good.
Yeah, especially for Overwatch. Yeah, you can't be over watched. Yeah. I think that's one of the rules that tournament organizers are going to have to figure out themselves as we've got the changes to towering because, you know, Well, I had that debate going into the wall case, but then they changed the rules and I think playing out Windows open was fine in the end.
Yeah, you just had to stand behind the ruin. Yeah, rather than it was just a small difference. Conversations are on footprint are really important there as well because we feel those L shapes, if you played a full thing as a footprint, well, standing behind means you're like three or four inches further back. But if you just played a lip as the footprint, as they say in the rules do say it's all about footprints.
You're actually sitting an inch away from the wall. You can still be charged because it's still room for 32, you know, mill this or whatever. And you're still out of line of sight. I think that's big when you've got those moments just to go, what's the footprint here and being equitable because when you've got terrain, it did go very good for terrain to be fair.
But terrain isn't quite even on both sides and you've got one ruin that's got a massive footprint and one that doesn't. Just saying, we'll just play it an inch or something like that. And it's that playing with intent, talking to your opponent and not getting shaft advice and I was terrain wording or that one player that's got five laser pointers for every single gun line they can find. Well, the high ranking ITC player, you play your first tournament who moves a model that's meant to move 12, 14 1st inches in this first interaction with you.
Steve is not salty about that. Not darn. He didn't mention it in the WhatsApp group or something, he might discuss on this podcast. I'm looking forward to the slight refresh on the little bit of spikes in the game that we've been playing for three years, two and a half years properly.
Yeah, probably easily too, I think. I used to mention things when I live in a place. So I lived in my flat, I was playing Warhammer. So that was about three years.
So probably coming up to third. Well, I do remember distinctly. Okay, I've first covered. Well, yeah, but also like, I think Rob suggested doing more competitive stuff.
Yeah, Rob and I were like, no, no, no, no, no. And Rob went to one together. Yeah. Yeah, everyone like, might have included said now, competitive as in four.
And we were really enjoying pre-sated that. Yeah. But Rob and I went to that tournament and it was good fun. It was good fun.
It was a big learning experience. And I did have to play Rob in the final game and then had to have the awkward car drive home after he paddled me harder than he ever had in a game we'd ever played. It was like, yeah, going from losing by like 10 points to that really horrible dread list, losing by like 45 points. Because I just couldn't figure my second three's out.
And, but yeah, then 19, 19 wasn't in the team. Yeah, big loss in teams. And then we went to, I went to a long time. I started first.
It got one I went to and then it kind of, we went to this got together, didn't we? Yeah, I was in the shop tournaments. I personally found going to tournaments really fun. Like they do too many because they are, it's like a hot footway to hold a family to like not ignore the rest of it.
But I found competitive like stuff without going to two meta to sweaty with this. It's just like a really interesting thing that holds my attention quite well. It's a really good excuse to get free games in like. Easy to just fly to the misses as well.
I was spending the day in the Elgin hobby. No, like I just got a Mr. Games and played three games on a Saturday. No, but it's a tournament.
The tournament. I could win money. It's an official event. The team needs me.
No, I was going to say sorry. Yeah. I've played other nerdy competitive games and that going to at all with a group of people and going to teams on with a group of people does amp up the enjoyment on it. Because you get to have a little D refaff to words there.
I don't know if it works the same in the time. You can discuss with your team what your versus the same one games finished. You've got a play from each team that's sort of floating. They can then give a little bit of sideline coaching.
You can. Yes. Again, campaigns WTC which is about a thousand levels above what we're doing. They have no, no, no, no.
Proper like coach going around between the tables of each team saying score. I don't think they're allowed to talk tactics. Certainly not allowed to help the game, but they are allowed to talk about. Are you doing well?
Are you doing badly? Are you about kind of middle of your expectation? That information gets kind of claded and passed around. So the example we were using in a minute ago was if I'm getting an absolute pacing in a game and on the other side of the fence Isaac has got a game that he needs to win.
We might say Isaac, you know, you're going to win 15, five. You need to get a make it a 20 zero because Steve's had his arse handed to him. And that information can get passed out. Steve's able to say that.
He knows we will be texting him every game to your Steven's not going to be planned. Please. Yeah, so you can sort of get everyone to be a little bit more aggressive because we need to make up the five points that Steve's expecting not got. So we all need to make another tip and pick up that slack rather than playing for that close loss.
Now we have to play for that appearing victory. You might select one of the teams. That's where I came from. One of the teams might be in a better position to know John for those extra few points.
So you know, it's going to be hard in the middle of the game, but say I do text, I say lads and get a pace saying who can get another five points. No one needs to put the hand up confidently and not with too much overconfidence and say I'm going to do it and then fail because that's no good 21. But I can do this so no one has an easy tip. It's also it comes down to managing risk because you're trying to not lose by too much.
So you get, all right, I'll do these five points. You know, you've got to play a little bit more aggressively. You've got to, you've made, I'll go for that 10 inch charge where normally you wouldn't risk it. Or even if you, you know, you've joined bring down your head comfortably thinking, I'm not going to bother thinking that last wound off.
Something else to kill and instead you put everything into that one wound guy just to get those extra four points. So you can be, I think it can be small decisions as well, not just those big like, right, 10, 12 inch charges. That's what happens. Well, luckily we've got that, the local singles storm, two weeks before.
Two for you. Do each before to. So if you want to play as well. Yeah, so if we don't top five, the singles, we'll be the tribe by five.
So then we'll just play it out and just like, well, sorry. John has the store reigning champion as well. He's got a title to defend. Yeah.
But I suspect if he loses yourself a one-care fighter, I'm not a. Yeah, I'm a skewed fighter. I'm still to prove myself in tournament play since then. I think my high status was seventh.
I'd say you've been underachieving for your ability. I'm a good judge. I think the last two-case tournament, I think it came down to pairings because I was in the second, the five second place against the tournament. And he beat me by a single point.
Yeah, that was good. And then I ended up coming seventh because of where points total ended up. Yeah, and I think that's really frustrating. One of the difficult ones I went to, I was fighting third and I dropped down to sixth.
It does go. It's just where it goes. Yeah, it could go to the flating, I think as well because your skill level isn't necessarily sick. You're capable of coming third.
You've just lost a game by ten points or in some cases really frustratingly, you know, it's happened to be out. You're opponent plays slow or the game is just slow off whatever reason you do. You time out and you sat there and you know, did go up really strict. I think quite rightly in some ways, I'm saying you don't talk it out.
The game just ends. And that's there for a reason. I've played a jurikari player at the, they've got to that same tournament where we're going to play against the team. The end is the tournament where we've got to get it turned four.
We timed out and I was ahead by that five points. I don't know if I would've been five points ahead at the end of that fifth tournament. That's win. It's a dice game.
Yeah, yeah, it would come down to me rolling well, him rolling poorly, just like any chance based game. In the pack, did they say what to do when time runs up? It does. It is awkward with the random missions.
I think we need to chase Cockett personally. It's one of the things I had. I'm not allowed to talk three turns. Right?
Even if you are using fake secondaries. Okay, cool. one of the things that is I have to be cognizant of because when you're rolling like 40 dice it just takes extra time to go through the actions so I need to be something I need to work on is being quicker in the rest of the game because I can't change how long it takes to roll those dice. Yeah.
Not getting stuck in your commander movement phase going what am I doing here standing on the table for like 10 minutes? It's hard in that obviously you've got to look at Overwatch stuff in your opponent's turn but planning what you're gonna do in your opponent's turn and again the other reason that's difficult is because it's tactical second-year so what am I gonna get but generally have clarity from your opponent's turn going to your turn what you're gonna do not right yeah start the beginning and work out in your opponent's turn and if I draw investigate signals what my units do therefore it yeah if I draw teleport I'm just kind of getting something on the center. With like playing card games like you're especially like with the Pokemon card game because there's little interaction really between turns so you create a plan so okay I know I've got this here so regardless of what I draw I'm gonna do this and then if you happen to draw whatever you need I'll go I can pivot to that so it is the same it's like okay I'm set up and I'm on the free objective I'm gonna score 15 for that sweet if I happen to score investigate signals I'm close to the corners perfect if I have to do bring it down I'm a bit fucked because there's no vehicles on the board but we'll just stay hold here and we all know how upsetting it is when you reach that path and you flip over you know I'm breaking down there's no fucking vehicles and it's you know binding lines which you can score turn one I think that's one of the ones they should probably shift to a turn two it's not there are many armies that can achieve that turn one and you're suddenly going right I don't want to see people did you any of these just a whole turn where I'm not scoring points and that's the only downside I think that if you start drawing tacticals on your second turn and your first turn was just a staging point or you know you could pick you drew before you start moving or before deployment you draw your first two then you can at least stage your deployment around those that might make it a bit more but it's heartbreaking when you just ah right does your list or anything do you have a way of generating an extra CP I've got some free so my council Lord's give me if I'm running council I think I'm gonna do now they've got free battle tactics strategy we discussed in the last episode we discussed that that's kind of a little more complicated now the only way chaos how to generate additional CP now is out of it on was a 310 point sink you have to successfully make it back packed so even though he's leeched five you know I played game before I was not single pack you should do four out five you should do yeah you should so it is fairly consistent in the fact that you can do that even if he's not shooting and he's not fighting because he's eligible to shoot so yeah he's fighting time the forest angrily about his daddy issues but it's 310 points to gain those CP but I'm just thinking maybe it is just worth infinitely worth despite in the bullet and spending that initial CP especially if you can generate another one but I always run the Taliban I have to run a roller seven on two dice but at least I do that before I choose back and off got some flexibility if you need it the character I was really curious about running for my team tournament even 2k list which you're on because you're on I mean despite the fact I thought the mall was awesome when it came out because I remember you're on black out coming out it's not a good looking model anymore but he's got that redeploy ability which is so big I mean you know from playing a luck-free save recently that when you know you're going first you can deploy so aggressively and she runs ability to redeploy three units massive that's after 10's been decided now right so most of the redeploys in one of 10th they thought k 10th are before you know who goes first and that is either really weird words and completely useless it's not completely useless because you can maybe respond to how people have said things like that yeah I was thinking what you would know but you had deployment of opposite you could go to minter yeah you stack like you stack three units chosen on one object if you're a previous pivot and you pick all three 10 man units and you put them elsewhere but as one of those ones where you kind of I think this is the vegans to the data sheets we talked about and some of them needing a tweak or an FAQ is that GW you've gone people will figure this out or is that actually like rules is written you know it is I think the wording is one of those bizarre ones I can find it it might be where it sucked going against that who was ultramarine yeah the rapid redeploy yeah yeah it's awful so maybe it's the counter at that counter yeah so after you both players have deployed their armies you can select a three heritage startings from your own to redeploy them and doing so those units can be placed in strategic reserve regardless of how many units are already on to be fair that's a good balance between it's too powerful and it's useless I think yeah I mean the way the use I would have for it I think is I would put my three units of liters down and then when my opponent goes all right I'm keeping all my taxes away from them put more strategic reserve yeah and then I'm playing it if you've left your nine into pockets around or you're not having to play around for that nine inch pocket so he does still have uses but I was really like when I first read it I was I kind of thought oh why is nobody running here on like this guy seems so good he's got that once per game like you move away from you it's not just a councilor it's slapping things and then that clarity of okay that's still good but it's not it's not great and I think it does it look like it's just the internal the great to see I mean we know why because you know what every children are coming having a little bit more we know they will be you heard here first that's probably why those characters haven't got their cool rules there'll be something else I think you're gonna probably get a new model in the chaos drops yeah I'm seeing no longer able to purchase and they like to do all the rules tweak when you get a new model don't they yeah Dante got a little tweak when they'll blow up yeah the line was only one they didn't they did like why would you ever run him in ninth and then tenth it was daddy's home so what is the goal for the teams then what are we aiming for so there's a sort of check it out it seems yeah so fourth i think i third i last should you meet personally i would i would be absolutely able to finish we won two and lost one okay is that like does it stack like that how how does the overall yeah so your differential will have awfully into a team's point to that game issue yeah you win the pairings you don't win that so you know it's not like who wins individual games it's who wins the overall round and the other new ones which we we didn't touch on was if some if one player gets a 20 nail and yeah look at me on the best and then the others like you know lose lose margin you can get scenarios where actually four small wins are much better than this one guy absolutely popping off so consistency across the team and building a score as a team is more important than having you know a bit of hero pairing going on yeah all right so not last well it's a good aim it's not last yeah seven i'd be i'd be surprised and gutted if we lost all three rounds two two one would put you mid table yeah because there will be if there are three rounds and there are eight teams there will be one team of three oh three teams on two one and then some like one two two three two three actually two one puts right up there you preferred so yeah it would just be i think that that'll be good if we could come win two lose one and to be honest that should be i'd like to think we can do that as a group as well i think a lot of it this sounds really wangy but you almost want to lose your first round the submarine yeah because then you get put into a lower bracket and walk up there's our excuse yeah you know you play your first round against a team that you're an even key always you win you're then paired against the team practicing for energy team it's like that and badminton team in the london limpix i think it was japanese do japanese teams playing each other they didn't want to play like the chinese world champions they were both through the final or the next round so they were playing to lose so they didn't want to play the world the right number ones they were both qualified both tried to get fixed but um they were playing the worst game for the big badminton anyway they've ever seen from some of the best plays in the world because none of them wanted to play in the next round so because you'd rather meet the best team in the final the other way yeah so and although we'd rather potentially lose the first round to get some easy matchups we'll all get into the game and go oh you're fucking having a business it's not it's not an actual tactical yeah it's not an actual tactical practice yeah it's not an actual practice yet but it's something that people talk about in card tournaments yeah you lose your first round but then win out because you go into the lower bracket and it's i think it's as well like you don't going into the second round after a loss is a bit demoralizing whereas if you've won the game suddenly your mind goes we're gonna take the fucking tournament we're gonna win the whole thing and it's not until that second round loss that you kind of go yeah okay my personal goal will be to average or to score more than 30 points across the day yeah so to do better than 50% on average yeah like if i lose one game five i need 15 in another game yeah that's well right because we're not thinking it's almost just about saying my personal game would be to win two out of three games because it doesn't necessarily work like that does it yeah yeah and obviously if you win two out of three you are doing well you're still doing well but you might not be going into that match up with the thought of oh this is a winnable game for me you're not going into the match up thinking you know this is the outcome i'm expecting yeah i get a bit better brilliant but i think maybe the best outcome for us all is really to achieve what we set out in the but our you know parents so if you're meant to win your game when your game is great but if you're meant to lose closely there's no shame in that movie closely it isn't that idea of you saying you know i want to score points is much better mindset for teams than because that game you played against michael the other day will 90 to 90 yes yes so it's weak to be a 10-10 classic Steve doesn't it doesn't it that's a draw in that's a draw whereas in a singles you're over the moon with that yeah you've got nine points and even the loser is over the moon with that yeah they're saying that in the singles tournament i play seventh the person that i beat in round two placed above me because that our round two game was close so they ended up at the higher point instead of because they won third round yeah same as i should play third because i scored highly in the first and second to get so first and third game so even though our second game was relatively low scoring i was able to get into the podium as it were just because of uh it's weak and for my first place game it was like 90 to 26 or something so he plummeted right down yeah and it's and he played first we'd have a great moment in that third game when we were sort of half an hour from the end and i'd just i've taken him in points but he hadn't quite clocked that and he sort of went yeah obviously we want to play faster because um you're behind that's just fine i'm 15 points clear and i started rolling dice and i did have a degree of satisfaction with my frustration from that third game um i'm just saying no we're not playing this you're not in this race anymore you're playing i don't know first when you we all when every time you finish moving you have to watch some of your old 40 dice for an Overwatch and celebrate one hit and then you take one wound it's just it's a slow game. Chess clocks i think it's going to be the new then you value get the shop for the heat wins my problem i won chess clocks but you're because i'm where i'm working i've got to serve i can't can you pause it you can't pause it yeah yeah and casual games just but you need practice right you do you do what you can't pause that's what we have our after hours long years but you can also just have your phone out so don't tell your opponent because that's not what it's about it's about timing yourself so if you've got next to your scoring you can you can you can you can you can you can you can you can you can you setting absolutely about making sure there's fairness of time and the ability to play the game in in the right because it's two two and a half hours yeah six no six three so yes so you want to make sure that you both get in 90 minutes and that i think yes it needs to be i would like to see more tos writing into tournament packs about how chess clocks need to be used if they are used because of that second tournament that did get one that i placed third in my second game um i did lose he i had about 35 minutes left because definitely we've said a very interactive army in ninth well you didn't really have to say so quickly yeah you know so i had about 35 40 minutes left and at the end of his fourth turn he had a minute 30 left i've got to turn five so he got his context who put the fiscal count he said he put the chest lock out um he put the chest lock down i was the first tournament i'd ever played with one i'd had him explain to me in my first game my opponent timed out turned five but i was so far ahead and pointed didn't really matter that we just talked it through it was kind of over um but he put chest look down he then sort of started playing we got to the end of the fifth turn straight his fourth turn about a minute 20 left in the clock i started about 14 minutes and he just started talking through what he was going to do to score points and i thought well no but you wouldn't have time to score all these secondaries in that one minute 20 seconds because your command phase will take a minute and 20 seconds and all your secondaries are scored at the end of the turn and that would require you killing this killing that you know doing all of this stuff um i hate to use the term but go by gaslight where you're sort of trying to be like but no no do you remember i said the chest clock was just my own timekeeping i did explain what you know it's quite sweaty thing to do to put one down and if you're gonna play with it like that then you should be playing as intended you're either about that life or not um each but the chest got down like progressively i sort of thought that it was just like yeah you know you do you want like we've got 40 minutes left in the game either you um i've you know you went on the score but it was actually 15 20 points in that final turn from things and it meant that a game that actually if i just timed about there and said no no i'm gonna play my turn now you don't score anything i actually might have been able to squeeze a win you know it would have been i thought you'd have to figure out what those points were coming from but so i think in to you i was i'd love to see just more clarity on if you are using a chest clock both players need to agree if you have this is the it would have to be something if that was going to be the case that the to says you will be on a chest clock yeah it can't be an optional thing and then if you're using the chest clock in your time it has to be a blanket i think i just like to see he then was like oh i just use it because at London GT you have to bring one and i was thinking this is just leaning into what i've just been you know you brought this as a tournament player who's running a really sweaty kind of game that it's like we'll get the line of sight laser out and they're trying to they're trying to angle a laser to bend that light round that goes like it's a laser it is where it is line of sight you force you mean yeah through two ruins like no being that snoria you've got um you've got someone asking for a favor effectively and i i think the just the equality of this chest clock out we've both gone out and half that's just the fact of the situation if you run out um i'm sorry but you run out of time there's equal parts to this game for you and me i'm not using my time you have there's a bit of a i mean especially as he's on the pot the clock down i think it was a bit much to be asking for time off you because it's a skill yes if you say how you use your time as a skill if you say he wants the it's for his funkeeping well you've messed up you haven't you if you've not kept it yeah there's a clash between earning death wing which was super interactive and aldahayla boom list which requires fausen ice a lot of dice rolling a lot of movement a lot of seep you know a lot of kind of stuff going on that i think there's some hindsight i should have just said oh no i'd like to be with t over we're going to talk you through just this you've got to block down um and yeah so i think that was a learning i would advise you either from the next one to have the confidence to say to challenge it not in an argumentative sense because that's generally not happens at least one that it's all very friendly by large but occasionally we just need a bit of a fact based emotionless perspective on it not only to be a prat what's kind of mind yeah it's a it's an awkward situation because it's i mean you're useless in your job but there's many confrontation going on there and i think to say look there's there's a situation there's a situation there's a situation perspective so it's a to just resolve it fairly independently and not look at that i know what you mentioned card games making the gatherings a much better culture around using a tournament organizer to resolve anything but London GT was brilliant they thought if you saw the final yeah where they know deep striking a blood rate doesn't actually cause the teard and said can you place those down nine inches away from this tank it's a bit tricky and there's like point one of an inch to like fit them in yeah and the teard put them down there was no just no one could disagree and it was the same with um race guards got that shoot at the fighting yes and put models back after the event on that one and it was that they they shot works because you actually fight but because you're not engaged they pulled models out of engagement range when they died so that they could shoot after fighting but sequencing wise both consolidation and shooting happen after fighting and when you've got sequencing clash the player who's turned his juices the order and which things happen and the T.O.
came over explained all of that so the chaos player then got to consolidate into the race guards so they got them shooting it's a very complicated rules um interaction which there's loads of them and it was really good use of T.O. actually just kind of did it a bit off his own back because he i think he'd made a judgment in the moment and was like probably right on the check anyway but you generally that's just used to you know that's what they're there for they're there to be the tiebreaker yeah when you've got an awkward decision you can't decide to bring the two of you to talk to you and it's not like when you like you do example on the obliterated deep strike it's like can they fit in i mean like i'm nugging models point one of an inch by accident so i'm trying to fit a major it's really difficult T.O. this is really hard i can't do it so can you just work it out for me please i wish there was more support for T.O.s in Warhammer like as a meeting where you can all close training yeah like it's it's a huge thing and with like lunge into gt and all these events that games work not themselves like sponsor and whatever but it's like okay well what's the training for that because that's a very specialized thing because it was a very good point that's just an idea team Poland with uh the with a team for the lunge T.O.s and for the lunge T.O.s and the world champions T.O.s and was like just a gift but then they almost need to make a pack even if you have to pay for it they need to make a very there needs to be a very concise well written document that you can refer to and epic you almost but for like behind the like sequencing how does that work like you say with the player whose turn it is chooses how it works i i didn't know that so it's like a rare rules cheat sheet they can give T.O.s that you need a flow chart for some of these things the training's a great like if you think of all of the shop owners shop managers around the country running you know T.O.ing all events you know if you set out as much of the way they did with the Leviathan mission pack and they started to say this is how you rank players at the end of tournament this is the terrain set these are submission combos stick another page on that and say this is how we like players to use T.O.s you know here's some examples don't be afraid of it you're not it's not an argument this is just a independent validation of this sort of game you mean it's a third opinion yeah it also it doesn't matter if what T.O. says after the game it turns out that the T.O.s ruling was wrong because that's not what they're there to break the deadlock so they don't it's like in Pokemon when you still have situations that come up you don't have a definitive answer for but you have the training and the understanding of the rules to be able to make a best guess and say to players this is what is this is how it's going to work and the players accept that and then after the game for the momentum that was a little bit wrong on that that's how it goes.
I feel comfortable going to the did caucus was seven the last episode again Mike Lee said to you T.O. he's really clear he knows the rules so well and not to mention all the trainers is beautiful so it's nice going where you've got Necro themed and Tyrionnid boards and he's really cool but he's just he's good at making the calls and he knows the rules really well and he's also got a good sense of when a game needs to be monitored I'll have help out from him in the past when he's come and spent time at table and sort of play around or he's set a conversation and he's really good at that yeah good to you but it's really difficult for like some of you John other players as well and then you know you need to be kind of it would be great if you could hire a GWT over the day wouldn't it? I think what you could want something for the next talk is you could maybe select a couple of maybe a couple of us and if we've got clocks for example I'm just going to hit pause on that and go back and sec because there's a mini TA everything on yeah spread delayed round on the last couple of times you said in future decisions will be not made by committee but by me I'm sure we had a 10 minute discussion about the rules on precision and I was like it just spills over it just spills over I think we ended up arguing all of us that it was spilling over but in different ways and each thinking of the person yeah that's correct it was a question I asked but really the two years ago no one knew the question of who was attacking who like what the thing was happening yeah whatever we're tearing killed someone it's fine it's that weirdness of like you know like when things are allocated yeah and the rulebook clearly states are things are allocated but if you don't actually have whether or not you should be shocked by how many players genuinely haven't read the Warhammer rules but it is quite a high number and then when you go into games and tournaments as well like this happens where you kind of have an interaction where I think you're going to be thinking all Ravenwing had the encircle keyword it didn't really matter because I was running like a squad of three attack bikes so they weren't failing my alt-est anyway but just somebody saying I know they don't think the encircle keyword oh right shit I'll actually have to go back and now check every unit and you know when you've got those situations that emerge you know having the app has been great should search for keywords but we take when you allocate an attack you would think well that's when I've selected you know to roll the dice that's me all like all when I've chosen who I'm I'm splitting a tax into whereas it actually isn't the case it's when you know wounds are allocated it's after all the all the saves and rolls a bit you know after the rolls have been made before saves that's when you allocate them but some of the language of GW is ambiguous and that when players haven't really read the rules or revisited the rules leads to that real grey area of ambiguity like scout moves when you kind of have been told as a rule set every unit gains the kind of keywords of things get but scout moves you gain a scout key words but you don't gain scout nine inches you've got a scout but you can't move nine inches because scout gives you the lowest number of the squad is how far you move so if a leader joins a scout nine unit he gains a scout keyword but not nine inches and therefore that unit cannot scout with nine inches now that is a really complicated interaction that on the surface when GW rolled out their rules you hear kick keywords excellent so they gain the feel no pain and stuff but then when you've got one weird example that someone tries to send stealth all models in the unit need to have stealth keyword as you don't gain this has been cropping up because of crusade and I can give this attack this unit this tag against stealth but the unit and don't yeah all the other way around so I guess win it that's how I've done it with scout I've given some cast on that it's a scout and it's suddenly you can do but now add it on cart move with them so I was thinking Christ I don't know each free game moves that's insane and somebody else thought that and they said no you can't do that and I think if more players are genuine it's not two of you for saying you might have read the rules but I think more people are just sat down and read the rules once and then just every now and again refreshed I think it's just me you read the rules you read the rules you're doing truth like every week you've just started the champ where do we think it's the team who runs the after school club yeah yeah I've been in that room Andy is not really I don't know what in the club at school I work in and I'll tell you what that's not saying ninth so they're still playing ninth wrong no matter how much I've tried to help I don't need to read the rules I've got the team for that right it's like a team cool well I think that settles at that we will we'll do another one another post team post tournaments post the singles and the teams and we'll see how we've done hopefully we've top five and third or fourth that's good by jolly yeah we'll see what happens we come fifth that was all on jolly all right see ya bye bye