Do you ever feel like you're listening to the podcast and wishing you could step behind the scenes, join the conversation and really connect with other coffee industry folks who share your values? That's exactly what our monthly Patreon live discussion group is all about. As a member of our roasted coffee tier on our Patreon, you're not just supporting the podcast, you're stepping into a space where you can join exclusive live video sessions and meet like-minded people from every corner of the coffee world. The quality of the discussions is on par with what we get on the podcast, except it's an open discussion with about 35 other like-minded people.
For just $20 a month, our roasted coffee tier gets you early ad-free podcast access, our weekly industry insights blog and access to join us for the live monthly discussion groups. If the roasted coffee tier isn't quite the right fit for you or it's a little out of your budget, we have other options so that you can still be a part of the community and support the work that we do. Head over to patreon.com forward slash Mapper Forward or check the show notes for links. If you're already a Patreon backer, thank you for your support.
Welcome to the Daily Coffee Pro by Mapper Forward Friends. I'm your host Lee Safar and this is episode two of a five-part series with Carol Saloon from Three Tomatoes in Sydney, Australia. We are talking about surviving 2025 and 2026 as a cafe owner. And in this episode, we're gonna be talking about the customer.
Carol, as 2025 continued to get more volatile and 2026 doesn't look at it as it's slowing down any, what impact did that have on the consumer? I like it. Bye. So our consumers, because our consumers are so, like we're very close to them.
We have a really good relationship with them. So we hear a lot more than just, how's your day has worked? We hear a lot more than that. So a lot of it is work, pay, living standards, can I go overseas, can I do this, can I, you know, take my kids away, can I buy these by that?
Everyone's quite supportive of us as a business and they really try so hard to be as supportive as they can. You know, whether they have the means or not, they really do try the regular customers. And I've got, we've got amazing, a very, very huge group of regular customers who, you know, I feel sometimes, I feel bad because I feel like they're coming to support us but they're probably sacrificing something else, you know? Right.
And I think the reason for that that they come to support us is not just to support us, but it's also because we give them something, you know, we give them the counseling, we give them the family treatment, we give, we are their friends and it's not a put on. So like I'm not saying that, this is all stage. That's obvious. But I just know that they love talking to us about this stuff, about their life, but you know, rising costs of living and kids and what the schools, the kids go to and you know what they're spending on school fees and what they're spending on clothes and food and so on and everything's just like, always going up and down.
So people are not sure. So what's happening is they're not coming. They're coming, but they may get one coffee a day as opposed to two, but they might have toast instead of that smash up or they might have, you know, instead of a juice, they might have something else, you know? So it's just a change in the spending patterns, but they're still coming, if that makes sense.
Right. Yeah. And do you think that the mindset of the consumer is different than before? Not just because of the cost of living crisis, but do you think that they're looking, so one other thing that I keep hearing, let me phrase this better, I keep hearing from consumers, how much can cafes expect from us?
Like, you know, it's enough now. We can't afford the stuff anymore. We want our coffee, but it shouldn't be this expensive. We want to have our avotost, but it shouldn't be this expensive.
It feels like this is kind of disconnect between what consumers feel entitled to and how much you can meet their expectations, but also juggle all of these balls at the same time where you're like, well, the economy's fucked and the supply chain is getting more expensive and my suppliers have every right to put their prices up because it's getting more expensive to farm. It's the price of coffee's going up. Is there this disconnect between what the consumer understands about what's going on and what they're expecting from you? Look, I think we have a little bit better than most places.
I think because of the relationship with the customer, but I'm going to base it on the ones that we don't have a relationship with, okay? Perfect, tell me about this. Yeah, the ones that don't see it from an emotional side, an emotional perspective. So I think, for example, what we tend to try to do is because let's say the box of tomatoes can go anywhere from $30 a box to $70 a box within weeks, right?
Wow. We are not going to change our prices to reflect that. So we try to adjust our prices so that if we're buying it right now at $30 a box or $20, then we might charge at $50 a box because we know at some point it's going to go to $70, but we need to work it out that way. And hopefully, we always hope that when the customers go to the supermarket themselves or go to the free shop, that they see that it's not cheap, that they see we're not taking the piece.
And sometimes I feel like they think we're taking the piece. That's what I'm hearing. Yeah. And I'm like, well, you're willing to pay $50 for a car wash, right?
Right. Water hasn't gone up quite that much. And so on and so on. But wages have gone up.
But you don't think about spending $35,000 on a car, but you think about spending $5 on a coffee. And so I think, like I was saying in the last episode, that people feel like the price of coffee should never change. The price of food should never change. They don't take into account their cost of labor.
They just think about cost of goods. They don't take into account the rent, the gas electricity, even the waste removal, everything, you know, simple things like insurances and so on and so on and so on. So like everything just keeps going up and up and up. But we can't match that with what we charge.
So our profit margin is like this. And it just, you know, slowly deteriorates. Yes, we're making a profit. And that's why we're here.
I think the biggest thing that people deal with cafes and I am probably going to get a bit of backlash for this is that people feel like it's a charity, right? So that's an interesting perspective. Yeah. Because they'll come in and they'll say, can I have an extra cup for this?
And can I have another napkin, the straw? And can you give me another source? And can I have this source? And then can I have that?
And can I have another piece of bread? You know, and they don't, and if you charge them, sometimes they go, oh, why are they charging me? So I had to say to someone once, if you went to Kmart, and I know your listeners don't know Kmart, but if you went to Kmart and bought a pencil, you're not going to ask them, oh, can you give me a rubber with that, you know, in a race of it and expect it to be given to you for free, right? So why do you come into a cafe and expect that a napkin or a straw or an extra cup or an extra lead or an extra plate or an extra takeaway cutlery is all for free?
You know, and all of these are costs that we're absorbing that nobody wants to talk about. Where do you think it came from? Because it was definitely, like I haven't been working in cafes for about 10 years. And I, but I worked in cafes for 15 years.
And I, I mean, that shit was around then. Do you think that we created this sentiment? Do you think the generosity that most, because if we look at, it's Gen X, that really built this kind of cafe culture in Australia? Yeah.
And Gen X definitely is, has a different sentiment to the millennials that came after. And Gen X was very generous. We were very hardworking, were as though it's in past tense, we have a different framing for the way, but is it our fault that we did that this happened? Do you think?
No, no, I just, I don't think so. I think that just hospitality, the word hospitality is probably the problem. Yeah? Oh damn, I never thought about that.
Yeah, because hospitality doesn't mean money or profit. Hospitality is a feeling. It's being hospitable, it's being welcoming, it's being loving, it's being charitable, right? I think it's the word.
So, and, you know, of course, that's exactly why we get in. Right. That's why you're so loved. That's exactly it, because you are hospitable.
But you and I both know, being of Syrian background, that hospitality is in our blood. So we can't even if we tried. So all we know, like if we hate somebody, we're like, would you like a coffee? You know, would you like a drink?
That was a percent. Listen, it was hard for me to charge people. That's how much hospitality is in my blood, that it felt, I know that I'm employed as a barista. But, and this was one of the hardest parts of transitioning from corporate into being into hospitality.
It was like, but like, I'm in to charge someone for a coffee. And this sounds so fucking stupid, folks. And I know I can hear how dumb it sounds as it's coming out of my head. But if you don't have a context of what hospitality means in our culture, the Syrian culture, then you can't imagine.
Like if I go to a cafe here, you'll love this. If I go to a cafe here, Carol, and the person behind the counter is Syrian, and they've never even met me before, they'll do the classic thing that Syrians do. They'll say, no, no, no, don't worry about paying for it. Let us take care of it this time.
You're just supposed to know to say thank you, but that's okay, I'm going to pay for it, right? That's ingrained in us. Does that, that, exactly, if you go to Syria, that's exactly what we do. So, the hospitality that we bring in the cafe is the kind of cultural hospitality that we're raised with.
So, when somebody would, when I had to ask somebody for money when I was a barista, I felt like I was betraying me. Because you're serving me. Exactly. We've grown up to serve.
Exactly. But you don't expect anything in return, you just can't. So, when someone, I remember at the restaurant, and these have it, and I cannot believe I did this, but someone said to me, oh, you know, I can get these homeless somewhere else for, you know, whatever, so much cheaper. And I was like, we'll go.
No, somebody's telling you, nobody's telling you not. And I looked at myself and I went, who are you? Because this is not, normally we're like, oh, that's what I was like. I was like, oh, I'm so sorry, I shouldn't be charging.
But then I thought, hold on a second, I'm running a business here, not a charity. So. And guys, like, Almond Bar has a cult following. Like, it's not even, like, it's not even overstating it in any way.
Almond Bar, I know people all over the world who know this restaurant, cult following. This is the restaurant that Carol and Sharon had, and it was an eye conic in Sydney. And people grieved when it closed. We still tell us that now.
Yeah, thousands of percent. I see all people say to me, when they know I'm coming back to Australia, they're like, well, remember the time we went to Almond Bar, maybe we can go there again. I'm like, that hasn't been there for years. Yeah.
But you raised a really interesting point about the plate of hammers, right? When somebody says, but I can get it cheaper down the road, people say the same thing about coffee. Yes, yes. Yeah.
And so all coffee's equal. They do. And do you know what was nice today? Today I was making coffee, and one of our regular customers walked in, and it was like five minutes till we closed.
And, you know, he pulled out his money, his cash, and he was, you know, fumbling with the coins. And I said, I'll worry about it, just the notes fine. And he said, no, no, no, Carol, no. He got really upset.
He's like, no, I pay so much more elsewhere for a coffee that you deserve this. And I'm like, okay, that's nice. You know, like, it was nice to hear that, that we're not, yeah, we're not overcharging. But there are people that go, oh my God, like, oh, you know, this much for a coffee go, well, have you been living under a rock?
Did you know how much I play for a latte here? How much? I'm scared to ask. Yeah.
It doesn't matter. Like any cafe I go to, minimum I'm paying, is somewhere in the order of 15 Aussie dollars. Yeah, 15 Aussie dollars. For a regular latte.
Not just, not alternative milk. Yeah, not alternative milk. Nothing. And I drink alternative milk, so that's on top of it.
But it's about 15 Aussie dollars. And it's not even good. Wow. Wow.
I mean, and we're going to talk about this in a future episode, but you know, it's all because it's beautiful and it's luxurious and the fit out and all of that. But they're charging 15 bucks for a latte. But you know, here's the catch. I'm coming to the bar.
Consumers, they come, any, dude, open invitation. I've been telling you. I know, yeah. I know, yeah.
But, you know, what's really interesting about that is that there is an expectation here that everything is expensive, right? So there's two debis that exist. Yeah. There's the Dubai where everything's flashy and you go places to be seen in certain places.
And that's built into the cost of coffee. Yeah. But the other thing that you see is that if you look at all the tables, rarely, there's a coffee on a table. Oh, really?
Really? Yeah, it's really fascinating. And this really, really like taps into what we're talking about. What are they having?
Matcha, cloud matcha, red matcha, blue matcha, signature drinks, cocktails, Isolate, right? It's, they're buying something that is, this is a very trend and fad driven society. Yeah. It's all about hype.
You know, and that's something that I wanted to ask you about. Do you, have you noticed that your consumers are, like, because they're so loyal to you guys, are they hyping? Is it all about the vibes with them? No.
So this is, so we do get those people. So what happens is obviously people hear about us, they go, oh, three tomatoes, great cafe, go and go, go. So they come, like, oh, do you have blah, blah, blah, do you have blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Like at first it was a site, right?
A site was like, yeah. And we refused to have a site. It was like, I'd love to see. I'd love to see.
The person who goes up to Sharon and says, can you make me an aside? No, they go site and money to see that. I've had people literally sit down. I've had people sit down and go, do you serve a site?
And they go, no, sorry, we don't. And they get up and leave, right? So I'm okay with that. I'm sorry, I gave you that, because I don't need the hype.
The hypey people are not loyal customers. Right? No, no, no, no. So they're not the ones that are gonna bring us our money.
They're not the ones that are gonna, you know, be our bread and butter. Yeah. So I really don't care. I don't need those people.
And thank God we don't need those people. We're very, very lucky that our customers keep us afloat, right? Our regulars. But we do get, we do get that.
So we've had to, obviously we've had to bow down to the matcha. You have to. But we do the simple matcha. Like we don't do strawberry matcha.
We don't do wanky matcha. I don't know your blue matcha. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. But it comes into mind.
We don't need to see. They're lucky they get matcha. No. Oh, the good thing is they get honey with it if they want.
If they want, that's so generous of you. We were just talking about how speedable we are as Syrians. And now we're telling you fuck you and your matcha. I got to wonder, has anyone, has anyone come in and asked you guys about like to buy chocolate?
You know how big it is to be. I would, I'd love to see Tony's face when somebody says, do you have to buy chocolate? Or do you make me buy chocolate? He loves it.
He loves it. He's like, I love it. I love it. Shout out to Tony.
And then he's now there's this other thing. Oh, what is it? Another hyped some Belgian hot chocolate mocha, like a Belgian chocolate mocha or something like that is the new thing now. But it's always like, it's always the Middle East.
And there's always the Arabs that are doing the hype. And I'm like, what is it? It's tick tockle, it's Instagrammable, it's our fault. Hey, I'm a newbie.
I've only been here a few years. But you watch, it's, so he's a really interesting thing about the cafe culture here. So we're recording this on the 12th of February. And next week Ramadan will start.
So that's the first disruption that happens in the cafe. So what will happen is that, yes, the cafes will still be open because the population is something like 98% expats. Right? Oh, wow.
In the years gone by, like decades ago, everything closed down during Ramadan during the day. You couldn't even be seen in public drinking a bottle of water. You had to go into a restroom if you were in a mall, take a sip of water, and then you could, so no food, no drink. Now, everything stays open, but the hour's shift.
And so now what you've got is a cafe that will open at like eight o'clock in the morning instead of six o'clock in the morning and it doesn't close until three o'clock in the morning or four o'clock in the morning to be there for if died and so hard. So that's the first disruption that happens. But then what happens after that is the summer hits. And so come around June, late May, June, everybody starts to leave to buy.
And from June until October, it's empty. The cafes are empty. They might get three customers a day. Yeah.
Wow. So they're charging $15 a cup. They've got a comp. Exactly.
And so what happens is when everyone's in these cafes, they know they've got limited amount of months that the season is going to be, and it really is beautiful. Because I was not prepared for how nice it is when the weather's nice to just go out and sit and, you know, it reminds me of the old days in cafes in Sydney. Right. It was just such it.
Everything was a buzz and it was great and blah, blah, blah. But cafes here are on the edge of closing. They're on the edge that they stay. So because they follow this high culture that you're talking about, they stay in business for like six to 12 months and then they have to close.
But that's what I find is happening here as well. You know, like if it's just really, if it's just hypey. It's unsustainable. But to build the way that you feel.
And that's the point that I want people to understand. If you're building for the long term, you've got to put in the effort to avoid the hype. Like you can have a sprinkle of hype, like offer a matcha or offer a Dubai chocolate ice latte or whatever. Yeah.
Right. Like every now and then. But building your menu hype after hype after hype after hype means that people are happy to leave you when the next cafe is offering more hype. That's the problem with hype is there's no loyalty.
At all. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
We will stop talking about all the hype and the Dubai and blah, blah, blah. We in the next episode are going to talk about what Carol is most nervous about as a business owner with this continued volatility. So join us for the third episode in this series. Peace off and peanut butter.
Have an amazing rest of your day. If you enjoyed this episode, consider supporting mapper forward our guests and advertisers on social media. Subscribe, hit the like button, leave a comment and share this episode with a friend. And if you'd like to support our work more directly become a paid premium YouTube subscriber or Patreon backer to get early access to the show ad free directly to your inbox each week.
You can find links in the show notes.