You're listening to a mash those buttons production visit us at mash those buttons.com Hello and welcome to the torn in the Goblin We're lately more like the torn in the guests mash those buttons podcast about Warcraft story and lore My name is Nick selling Kevin and I'm brag Tharnart torn hunter on Skywall us and today is February 7th 2023 and this is episode number 154 and today my delightful guests that I'm joined by you know them from several podcasts including dungeon fables and Formally morally gray and currently live left lore we have Jen and Ali. So how you guys doing? Oh? Hi, I'm good.
How are you? I'm doing well. How are you Ellie? I'm good Thank you guys for coming on I've been meaning to have you guys on for like a year I'm actually trying like we had you and Katie set up to come down this off-floor.
You've been trying to get there Just schedules have been really funky doesn't really work out. It's like that uh that waitresses song Christmas wrapping We're like they just can't get together whatever But yeah, so I'm glad you guys can finally come on How are you guys enjoying dragon flight? I haven't talked to you guys in like forever Wow, I mean I don't know if I enjoy dragon flight as much as Ali enjoys dragon writing and the dragon races I don't think I've enjoyed anything in life as much as she enjoys that But overall, I mean, I think it's a great expansion. I'm a great great grand old time big lots of fun.
Yeah, like it It has its way of making you just go. Oh, yeah, I can just go do that. That's fun You look at your clock and you're like, oh well, it's just kind of better while I get all right, okay That's what you need to be a bronze dragon because if you stay up to late playing the game and use rewind time and then you're good Right, it's happened so many more times in this this expansion where same thing I'm some me where I'm just out chilling and doing world quests and doing my thing and picking flowers and racing and then I know it's When I am I'm like, oh well Okay, that happened. Oh, I don't know when this episode will be going up, but we're a week into the trading post What did you guys think of the trading post?
I bought some stuff and I was like that's neat So I think it's kind of cool that you just get some free stuff every month like I was like, okay And I think what I liked the most is I paid zero attention to the fact that there was a trading post coming I didn't give two craps like I was just like I was just trading most of whatever and I thought what was nice about it Is I was just doing my normal stuff and I kept getting these little things popping up going like hey, you did a thing And I'm like, oh, it did a thing. What did I do? Like one of them was like you made some money on the auction house. Oh Oh, neat.
That's good. That's a decent show could change me then. Yeah, it was like I thousand gold or something was the thing And I was like, yeah, technically I earned 93,000 gold because I sold the E so that was nice But yeah, it was like good job being a player and I was like you player It was like okay. I'll go buy some stuff and then I bought a mount and I bought a pink wood and I think that's it Now so you were able to complete the whole the whole thousand Trying points without even trying and that's I think that's the intent is because I feel like I've been watching everybody this last week I gotta burn through all this stuff.
I'm gonna go and do all these old Ray bosses to knock it out Even I was guilty I went and I fished 50 things which I wouldn't do otherwise But like yeah, I think you're just like waited, you know, even if you didn't get in the first week you're just waiting you're normal stuff By the end of the month you should have that easily easily easily yeah Oh, yeah, yeah, I I never even looked once at what the requirements were there was just I was just playing it was like good Job there Jen you played correctly and I was like thank you. I appreciate that You played I mean that's a there's no real correctly. I mean it's pretty much you know you look at your shoes You get 500 trading points or whatever Nice, which is like and the people who do want to go above and beyond do other things like it's there You have the options I went into a couple of out runs because I want the mounts and I was training post I don't work honestly, but you're right like I I rush through because I wanted to get the mount reward at the end because it looks awesome even though let's be honest if I'm in the aisles I'm just flying everywhere and I'm already done with it And now I wish I had more but it's I think it's a great thanks And only is it get you doing stuff if you want more things to do outside your normal, you know do five mythic keys or whatever it is But also it's a nice way for blizzard to you give us some things here and there You know extra little pet sub-cosmetics or those weapon transmogs are really cool So maybe maybe if we're not getting the infinite pirate dragon mount through infinite pirate dragon questline stuff Maybe we'll get it some luck during the trading post Would you rather the infinite pirate dragon mount be a normal flying mount or would you rather be a skin for one of the dragon riding That depends if we get continued dragon flying in future expansions then yes Make it a skin, but if it's gonna stay just within this expansion and break my little heart then give me the actual mount for sure I'm surprised you didn't say both. I mean I will take it I Both good And I already had the sparkle pony After like 15 freaking years And then the best thing was it said to the favorite so I was like sweet to be fair sparkle pony was gifted to me I have really written it whole lot, but I have it which gave me money to spend on say certain pyrotechnics That belt though that belt was a little like right like I'm still really unsure about the belt area there But what's wrong with the belt looks like a big like red bow tie It's like really big red belt Yeah, I meant to look like a bandana or something long shirt folded or something But it just they got the whole cool double belt stuff going on now and everything like they could have done so much more with the belt of that Cosmic that's gonna be there's a wider a great trans model that you can use in this place on there absolutely is What do you thought about the trading post?
I'm guilty as I said I went I did a bunch of fishing and stuff I was like oh no, I gotta get this done immediately even though I knew it was bugged and I didn't get my mount for like two more days after I actually finished everything I was guilty of being like oh, this is exciting. Let's do this and then yeah, I was done with it And I was like okay, yeah, I'm good and I'm just very confused because like I keep getting tender And I thought there was like a limit of like a thousand or maybe like 1500 the first month There's like a bonus but I bought way more than I expected I'd be able to and now I'm like I'm like it's blizzard come after me I'm gonna get banned for like exploiting some kind of training post bug where I got extra tender but Yes, I can go into PvP with that flail and you know look at me. I'm super elite now I Super-leath though. It's a very nice.
I got that and I got the bow to nice. Yeah I'm so here thinking like that that flail would look weird for hunter. So I don't know what you would do with that Yeah, but I was also like I looked at the play I was like I got school at all but I got some one-handed weapon cosmetic like why wouldn't know I Have a definite I've been playing it was a frosty case. It completely doesn't fit.
Yeah, but you can make it work No, no, no like I can go to make it work with a tanky spec So yeah, and I already have the I already got the thing Thing I don't know Honestly, I'm truly surprising get it. It's pretty epic. Yeah, I feel like you should freeze it. I like my pink hood better I'm dasie.
That's me more than anything. I just like I was like, it looks great Supposedly they've data mined colored hoods for like the entire year So every month we're gonna get like a different like that hood and I think the one where it's up and then the one Where's like down around your neck? Yeah, both of those we're gonna get those in different colors throughout the oh, yeah My freaking hunter alts get look so good with agreement comes out. That's gonna be amazing Because my my hunters it's worth so he's gonna look like the freaking old like the mountain men like of course It's gonna be great.
It's gonna be great I'm even impressed how the hood looks with the torn with the horns and everything like it's still They've really I think they really nailed it really I haven't actually looked at it see what it looks like with my work and I just seem to like look at crap plus It's not really my color per se, but it's beautiful is pink. It's wonderful. I Never been a pink person ever ever Well, it's just I'd like the fact that I was like the shape of the hood like the thing's cool as hell Yeah, I'll just dressing room and look at it there I mean because this thing what happened in Shadowlands is when I went and made a cloak right and I made a Legendary cloak and the visual of it had that hood on it. I was like this thing is gonna look bad ass I thought I actually saw it.
I was like lizard You just you dangled it in front of me and we're like this look how cool you could look and then I was like I look like an idiot So sad I'm just impressive comes so far I mean if you look at some of the early-clothes models like they had the hood like textured in like it's down on your back But it's all like one flat texture So it's like I see what you're going for there and it's not I mean you'll allow it because I mean even the models were janky back then But now everything's so nice. It's like yeah that even the one that's it's out You know it's got like a nice ruff not ruffles, but like it's textured around your neck even so it yeah I'm very satisfied with that. I think they did a good job. I agree looks great.
There's no fashion. We want to rank Who is great by the hood that's all I have to say so let's move on here The reason I wanted to have you guys on and the reason I wanted to have you guys on for like a year Is because it was about a year ago. There was a whole controversy about Whether Frosty I don't want to talk about him too much because of all that you know his history But he's kind of you what happened you know year ago the whole thing that came out that pity side of the honest or not and it's all arguing about that and as a lore Podcaster as you know somebody who's way into the story here. I feel like we got a flashlight shown on kind of like the behind-the-scenes aspect of how the story is written you know it's one of those things you never want to see how the sausage is made They're not never but sometimes you don't want to see how the sausage is made this is one of those times we got a little bit started to get a peek at the sausage is made and I know you guys on the work has we were a lot of podcasts here and you know every week we go we pour through you know the books you know the cinematics we go to you know Waupedia for whatever kind of research we need to do you know you immerse ourselves and Lourly you call yourself a servant of the lore and you know like we're in the story we're looking at the story looking for clues as far as where the story's going and does I want to talk to you guys about like this knowing what's going on behind the scenes Does that affect your ability to look at the lore or are you able to kind of separate me like okay?
Like this is the story I'm gonna take it as it is you know like especially Especially the main thing I'm focused on is that like you know like we look at the burning of Teldrassil which in the immediate Event that happened when you know the beginning of the day they burn Teldrassil we get those those two or three days on social media What all of the horde was just angst ridden like I don't like this This is terrible what's going on and everybody's just kind of like and then we get old soldier that they release and like it Just was like a pressure valve. It's just it hit the exact spot that it needed to hit and it was okay They have a plan for this everything is gonna go like this was all you know scripted out They're gonna let us kind of like you know stew in our own juices for a few days And then we can move on with that but then like you see something here's in the back behind the scene stuff And it's like you know the decision was made okay We're gonna burn Teldrassil, but they didn't really verbalize a plan for where to go with that and then you know the the It's a little bit more than speculation, but you know as the story goes you know Stevie D, Steve the newser key, you know kind of got you know was was not forced But I guess you know get heard it the story without really knowing where it was gonna go And he got a piece everything together to kind of get us through you know shepherd us through BFA and into shadowlands You know and it wasn't necessarily something you know that he would have necessarily done previously knowing all of this like Does this affect your ability to look back because I mean at the same time this is all going on We're sitting there, you know, and we've had for example the Legion whispers the old enough whispers. I know you guys love You know we've had those since Legion here and I mean can we analyze those fairly knowing that The story and especially particularly pieces of the narrative team writing all of this have shifted behind the scenes I know that's like eight different questions I just asked you guys like in like a 30 seconds span So like what are you guys thoughts on like being a lore podcast and sort of knowing the you know Sort of starting to know like how the story team works in a way and what are your thoughts on that? I know for myself.
I kind of approach it in two different ways It just depends on my mood and my goals like sometimes I am absolutely able to separate the behind the scenes stuff and just look at what we are given and Speculate on that and try to figure out the wise and where it's gonna go that kind of thing But there are other times it's hard for me to not try to figure out, you know Who's idea was this at what point was a Fraziabi out and Stevie D came in and at what point did Stevie D get to like brand new all current narrative team stuff and how much of it is Current narrative team that's cleaning up after Fraziabi Like it's hard not to kind of try to piece those together and to see you know if for example If we go to your example of the tree burning the world tree is that something that you know because it's You know zoval need animal blah blah blah like is that something that was just a complete crap show That was all the Fraziabi or with Stevie D and other people kind of on board or was that pure like well Everything's horrible and we have to fix up your mess So here's Shadowlands to fix your mess like it's hard it kind of it always does make you wonder like How that goes especially because this story has gone through so many hands now and Gets impacted in so many ways and so it is kind of fun to Take that peak behind the curtain and see and try to figure that out, you know, yeah like for me It's actually very easy for me to separate the creation from the creator like I can still enjoy all the things that I enjoy even with you know, maybe some problematic people that have their hands in it Obviously so like that doesn't really bother me. I do enjoy thinking about the I would say the The creative processes and everything that goes into it because you know sometimes I do wonder like what were they thinking? Did they have a plan what what actually was going on here? Like I think one of my favorite episodes that I did up with before was when we actually basically just broke down why the jailer socks Just just as a villain You did like doing that one It was like this this villain that they created is the most generic bad guy blah that they have ever done and it's like no wonder no one cared Right the real you know spotlight and showcase character in your shadowlands was obviously so honest But you know, it's you just were at least supposed to be like mildly care about oh the big bad You know, so here comes the jailer and we're like what what and then the fact that you know, it turned out to be just a Automaton kind of thing even made it like even more just like I don't know how I feel about this This is weird.
So so yeah, there's definitely moments where I think when the I guess what it really is is when the story is good Like right now I'm really enjoying everything right now and everything I'm not really worried I'm not really thinking about it too much of like what's going on in the background How are they making this sausage right? But when it sucks? You just can't help it go what the hell is going on? So so yeah, I think that's probably how my brain works is win When the story is disappointing and you know you Nick and your ally and myself trying to What are we even going to talk about in the next episode kind of thing like we're in that mode is when I don't know you got to get creative and basically say all right.
Here's our writing class on how to make a villain And here's why the Awful there you go. That's that's my kind of thought process on that I hope that answered the myriad of questions you had in there It's I guess because like I think you're right on that the main thing is that this that becomes something on the story is bad like I remember being a wrestling fan in like 1999 and You know various points when you know this the things are exciting and you're into the Matches and the promos and whatnot and you know you're cheering for it And you're not really thinking about everything else because you're into the story You're buying with the action that's happening and then like when it got bad when they got you know They do stupid stuff then you'd be like okay like you know you're looking on the message boards You're like okay This is these are the people on the writing team for you know the WF the time You know these are the people that all you know sucking me to get fired when I start calling for you know their heads You know like an rspw type thing So You know so I think you're right in that regard and I guess thus far because I mean It's one of the concerns as far as like the transition from Shadowlands You know there's the quote of you know Steve the news you're saying you know that that was closing one book on the in the chapter one chapter in the book of work after whatever and we're opening a new one now It would seem that whatever corner we turned from Shadowlands to the dragon flight has successfully been navigated thus far And that's nearly still early we're still you know patching a half Yeah, we're still in the honeymoon phase. We're very much I have to say this is a very long honeymoon. Oh, it is like you know two weeks out in Vegas or something This has been you know like three months out in Hawaii or something like you know We lost our return ticket and we don't have any pressing need to get back yet, right?
I mean, it's like I'm kind of like I always thought about Warcraft is like you get you got a solid six months of every expansion is good You're gonna have a good time like if you're a big fan of wow, you're gonna get probably about six months of fun And then workloads or drayno will go oh by the way, this thing that you've been doing for the past six months actually isn't fun It's horrible. It's horrible. No, you will go down to that mine every day And I Will say I think on average you're right on six months I don't know we always get that feel like battle fries or I think was all like two or three months And then people started to sell because that has right armor really really kind of stuck in people's crawl Yeah, I mean you got your outliers and I think and I don't I don't really know exactly where I mean Everyone plays the game differently, right? So it's hard for me to say where people are finding the fun and things like that But since I have always been Uh rating like I can't remember the last time they had a really bad rate I would probably say it was it was probably a warlords drain or not that it was bad It's just they just last they lasted way too long That's one of those things where it's like, yes, that's blizzards fault like okay Like you know, I don't think they could make a raid that is designed to last for a year No, like that's just no but Like you know, like their development cycle and obviously they've been acutely aware of this I mean I think for for Shadowlands I think the season four was a brilliant way to kind of tweak the end there and extend the content without you know, like dragging it out But even Legion, I think Legion had a relatively short end game You know, that worked well But it's always hard because you want to say like, okay, like, you know, cedar work Of our went too long Therefore, I'm gonna dock points from mists or health arsenal went too long in Legion Therefore, I'm gonna dock points from Legion But it's like technically that's not that expansion's fault It's the one after that that they're still working on it.
They didn't get out quick enough Yeah, so it's like, you know, is is You know, is mists running for an extra, you know, for like a year longer than a year or two Actually like nine months not a year six to nine months longer than a year or two Is that mists fault or is that Legion's fault or a warlords fault rather? Oh, really it's warlords I'm a warlords player in a warlords, yeah, yeah, absolutely It's probably the garrison's fault Honestly probably was It's a whole new system the way it ran things, facing all the jazz I guarantee it was the garrison's fault Yeah, like I was at BlizzCon when they announced the garrison Like you could pick one So it's gonna be it, you could do this Oh, it's how it's been I was excited You could put it in the star whip for like air And I'm like, oh my god, that's true It just said you picked it out I knew something was gonna be right with the garrisons at that BlizzCon When somebody asked them, can I have my alts hanging around my garrison? And the developers just kind of looked at each other like, like they didn't like they didn't anticipate that question And as someone who plays a bunch of alts like that was my exact first thought Let's like how like how nobody on the team bring that up in whatever meeting And again, here we are We're projecting on the developers like what's going on behind the scenes as far as what's How is that actually affecting the game? This is a little more direct because it's actual systems as opposed to story But yeah, it's like how did they not think of that?
Like that to me that was the first place my mind went That was uh, you know, I want my alts hanging out together So I can get that nice group picture without having a photoshop Aw That'd be a nice picture That'd be a weird picture All of my alter egos I'm not just one person I swear My priest next to my OG dwarf rogue alliondra's I'd be so happy Great Yeah, I don't know like with the kind of like the story development Not that I you know, they're kind of like used Carrisons and any other systems as kind of a say A decent analogy, right? It's the similar type of thing because sometimes it feels like with the story They probably Like I don't know if you've seen the eddies or bit where he's talking about me with a little kid And the guidance counselor kept telling you to you know Basically you're British, scale it back a bit I feel like that's their way they're the way that they have to deal with the story sometimes It definitely with systems All right, here's this great idea. This is what we're gonna do It's gonna be amazing. Ah, look at this.
Ah, it's so great And then like, you know reality sinks in and they say Hey reality scale it back a bit That's gonna take 13 years to develop what you just said you're gonna do Like all right. Yeah, let's scale it back a bit So it does feel like sometimes like like a frazzie abbey and the tree like let's go there It's like check it out. This is an amazing thing And I don't I don't know if he just really sold it in a pitch meeting or just something Because obviously not I don't believe anything there is done, you know in a Just one person gets to say actually not just a set. That's what we're doing Like even if you're the head person, you get at least got to get buy off from you know, the team basically Right, so that's kind of where my biggest question with the whole burning of the tree was is like Why didn't you have an outline just an outline and you don't need all the detail But give me give me the bit by bit points of you know, this is where we started and here's where we ended Like maybe like you hire a christy golden or a manelin root to come in and say all right Here's all the detail that happened in between it's beautiful So that's it felt like a frazzie abbey was like literally that 2000 that the 2000 era meme of burn the tree Blame Sylvanas question mark question mark question mark profit I feel like that was his plan and he's like trust me guys is gonna be awesome And I'm like oh, oh, oh Like maybe I wonder and I'm loath to say this because this is the kind of thing I would say this I'd be like you don't know what you're talking about but I wonder if maybe part of this has to do with Because what met some left at the beginning of the legions that's still an expansion in there And I just wonder if like you know, that's like the head of creative that would have made him a frisbee Obies boss and just maybe the you know, they hadn't settled in or whatever, you know systems were there And maybe not that I've got like grab power or anything But maybe whoever was signing off on things wasn't paying as close attention like oh, yeah, you know, you're doing whatever You know and just signing off on stuff and he had the opportunity to do that and it seems that or I would hope at least that You know, they've put systems in place prevent something like that from happening again.
If that's what happened. I don't know Yeah, I'm not happy I said that now I'm mad about it. I mean, it's it's my thought has been that Maybe maybe no one wanted to question a fraziabi or maybe Rosbabi was working with some you know, yes men and yes women mostly men probably Excess what it became was for a while and that that went along with it because either a they didn't feel like they could Go against him or be maybe they didn't want to go against him because I mean I don't I don't know fraziabi I don't know He's like to talk with and try to have professional conversations with but I kind of wonder sometimes if people just didn't like going up against him Or if they tried and he shot them down because maybe I mean you're on something Maybe he had far too much power at that point and there was no checker balance with him never know but But so going back though like I guess you know as far as analyzing the story like We like I think we all feel confident now and the crossing my fingers as I say that that like Steve the news Are we know like okay? Like you know 10.0 is kind of gonna be his baby and he'll be shepherding the team We feel confident that they have a plan that they know where they're going because I mean one of the big questions We have around dragonflates.
Who is the final boss going to be? We believe like we believe that they know who the final boss is that they're not still sitting around Workshopping. Oh, hey, maybe it's galacron. Maybe it's deathling.
Maybe it's galacron deathling together Maybe they you know, maybe it's it's not the guy I don't know where maybe they bring back the trailer for no reason Um, you know, like they have you know, we're fairly confident they know where they're going on this expansion that they're not getting ahead of their skis again Yeah, per sure for the for the I think each individual expansion before it is released They they know everything in terms of the story like they know where the story is gonna go Maybe they don't know every single little like point 0.05 Little thing that they're gonna add in there for some fun or the little orbits that get added in like the the books that are going In the internal seven like maybe they didn't know they were gonna add that in there but It definitely to me has always felt that they at least know the current expansion You know where where we start and where it's gonna end right and what's gonna lead into the next one And it always feels like they're working about one to two expansions in the future because obviously There's just a way to develop and release cycle. How do you have to do it that way? Um, and in terms of the story I definitely think that like it seems to me like if I were to kind of like lay it out because I don't work there I've never worked there and they're pretty they're pretty like tight lived on like you know How the development process actually works, but if I were to guess from a strictly a project management type of realm is For the next expansion like right now that they're likely working on like they're probably already know the name and they're already being Developed on I think I think that's why Chris came back to do what he's doing to help out with You know if they're gonna start getting into more cosmology things Didn't work as well as they're hoping for shot lands for various reasons, which I'm gonna touch on that again in a second But you know maybe maybe that's why they asked Chris to come back and help a little bit because they're working all that So you think they asked Chris to come back and he didn't ask them to come back I like with that I honestly think it was Chris asked to come back. I See only because it seemed to me That as someone who backed his um, you know his kickstarter or the ora boros like system that he came up with I think he loves being the in the role of Coming up with the cool crap just like just you know come like hey So just spitballs come up with the stories and things like that But actually being the boss and running a day-to-day job.
I think he hates that stuff Like I think he just he just hates it that makes sense Did you listen to his last and I think in a few months but he's last interview with scotchonson? Uh-huh Yeah, he basically kind of said that yeah Yeah, no, I think he I think he just loves that creative process um From from beginning to end like he loves all the creative stuff but the You know the payroll and being a project manager and things like that Just gets under skin like which understand like it. I mean a project manager does no suck So it's like and like I was kind of thinking about with like the whole story life cycle with the expansions It seems to me that they have Like I was kind of saying an outline mapped out going up to probably two to three expansions In in the future and the reason I and the reason we know this is because of things Um like the little hints that they put into the game, right now I will also admit that some of those illgunnath whispers I am I'm actually kind of certain now that some of them are just just wrong or There were nothing will come from them like it's just absolutely nothing because I mean think about it Think of the source there from the void all possibilities that possibility never came to be right and it's every if the community eventually was like What about illgunnath whisper number one two three seven like whatever it was and they're like yeah That one was that's fake. No, it wasn't was a thing that it was a possibility that that they had the void knew about And it just never came to pass then I think the community would go I don't like it when I accept it See no because I'll do an episode where I'll find some way to Stretch it and bend it and make it make sense somehow and be like oh no You know who's there had like a second cousin that was you know blood or something That's why this is valid and yeah, it's you know, you happen to have like you own a pet raven or whatever There's a lot of fun.
You even if they're not all gonna come to pass and what not it's still A lot of fun to speculate and talk about for sure. The thing is though that one they're all very vague So you know and intentionally so so like they can make it fit to like two or three different situations that they want to There's no expiration date on them like 20 expansions from now They can be like oh hey the first, you know, the pro on the expansions you have to go late five torches Oh crap, there's all gone now And it would be incredibly literal because you know, that's that's the one thing is um, you know, because what we had uh, Char like quoting the whispers in in her raid talking about your king of diamonds is upon or something like that like when they Want you to know like oh, yeah, we're paying this off. They make it very clear. They're not selling about it at all Yeah, it was so chara called out the king of diamonds has been made upon and to drown yourself in the circle stars Yes, she would that she would like These ones right?
This is what that was talking about. Okay, you can scratch those off your your bingo card or whatever like Those ones have been fulfilled. All right cool and cut kind of really quick going back to the whole trying to think about what's going on behind the curtain and how it applies to story I still really am convinced that there was more to shadowlands That got cut either because of story reasons or covid because like I kind of feel like Whatever was originally planned for shell lands by fazi abi or whoever Maybe because of covid and how they made certain things take longer and they had to scramble just to get voice lines in the game You know, like maybe they had a spice a story a bit together and like take out chunks in the middle and sandwich all together into some kind of awkward Shallowing sandwich and I know We may never get told if that's true Or how that I've had to the story, but I really want to know because I really feel like there was so much more They could have done with shadowlands you bring up a good point talking about covid because I mean I'm willing to lay all the problems of shadowlands and like basically give laser a huge pass for that expansion just because of covid Like that especially when that hit and you know where they would have been in the development that messed the whole expansion up And the fact that they were able to recover from that and kind of get the end of the expansion to at least Mostly land well, personally, I love zerith mortis So, you know that I'm you know the fact that they did as great as our mortises They did from my perspective, you know, I'm impressed by that But again, like you know, we're looking at this story. We're expecting okay You've got these story beats we're expecting everything to pay up and you've got world events like covid is beyond blizzers control Like that's not something that they have any input into they couldn't plan at the beginning of 2019 Like oh by the way, you know pandemic is coming.
Let's you know, you know adjust our schedule accordingly Um, and so for us being you know fans of the story looking to see everything play out You know watching everything kind of not quite land the way we would have wanted it to and knowing that it's You know a major mitigating extenuating circumstance. Um, you know, it's hard It's on the one hand. It's it's hard not to you know, give them the I'm going to let you know let them slide on that but it's it's a little bit disappointing though because again You're left wondering like if not for that what if and I'm not just with covid There's a ton of if not for that what if I mean the last three years if not for that what if but It's you know, it's it is disappointing. I'll say it's disappointing like I understand the situation and I'm disappointed by it And I wish we could have you know, I would have loved to see you're right I think there were things that got affected by that I would have loved to see the story play out the way they intended And especially to the problem is that gap after 9.0 Where it was like eight months nine months before we had a like 9.1 Yeah, I mean It's just the terminal and you know like that you know, and that's the problem is like they have this story where they got these beats And you kind of want to make sure those beats come out in, you know a timely fashion Um, and yeah, it's hard to follow up on that when it's like nine months later and you're you're off in court You heard the theory That courtio was supposed to be uh, throws Did you hear that?
I did not hear that that That's why like courtio like courtio was supposed to be throws and the broker city uh, tazavech was supposed to be courtio Because courtio was supposed to be some city of runes and mysteries and what courtio is is it's kind of a bunch of woods and some runes Right. Yeah, because it was just court he was described as like the Like a lost city of secrets or something like that, right? And You know, you get to courtio and you're like this name one of the city. This is I mean, there might be some secrets here, but it's uh Maybe then the secrets were kind of Like I'm too much here.
I think I'm sourcing this to like a reddit comment So, you know, like take this with a huge grain of salt, but it was an interesting enough thing that I'll pass along Interesting more so I'd I mean I would like that mostly because I still want revenge for eerlon And I want to go to throw some burden down and I never got to and I'm still bitter about that so that would have been great Yes, you know, um that would make more sense honestly, but Again, so many grains of salt and honestly so many Yeah, and watch out snails and the funny thing is to like with the uh The whole story development kind of thing. I think I will actually say going when we look back on shadowlands We will probably at least at least the lore nuts We'll probably look back on shadowlands with some fondness Only because of how much it just upended so much of the lore that we thought we knew Because it opened things up very nicely. It I don't know it is a nice layer not but it was And expanded the universe. Yeah Questions like I've dangling the care of you're gonna get to know more about the first ones just kidding Right, so it's very much like we were given a Perspective on the universe of the mythos and everything that was so tight and centric that we had these giant gaps in time that were Basically like well, what was happening at this point?
Oh, that was tight and so they're great darn beyond for eons for all we Like I don't know it takes a long time to walk through space because they're walking Okay, doesn't make sense, but whatever Just so to say that you know, they're like oh the first ones and all the framing of the cosmos and things like that Like I personally I'm here for it and I like the way that They're like in the legacy of tear dungeon when ode and put out that thing where it's like no No, we're not gonna talk about the first ones like stuff like that It's me all like super jazzed up like that's that is that when it comes to the lore aspect of the game I'm all super super high-four and I never and that's the one and I'll personally for myself I never feel bad about a spoiler for lore because it's all just background stuff that happened years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years Like the eons ago. It's all background stuff. It's fun. I'm not gonna But the actual story of like a raid or something you'd experience it on I like always I guess depends how the lore is dropped because I mean if it's if it's in like a book that you find in game Sure, yeah, that's fundamentally no different than you finding article on a well head telling you what's in the book You're gonna find in game like there's no great even if you do like a quest to find it still the end of day You're just reading words, but if there's like a big moment where like you know like you know like I guess we're like tear We're supposed to resurrect them or something.
I think that's a really lore spoiler because that's a story That's actually the story that's actually what happened like yeah, I don't know if like raffion was like I don't know actually 10,000 years ago I was around something like I can't even think of something that would make sense in that case So maybe there's no there's no argument to be there's not a there's a little bit of an argument A tiny bit and I would say I don't want to necessarily spoil a story moment I'll say like legion when you are questing on Argus for example all of those cutscenes were just things we are Lee as the The lore nerds we already knew from about but it was very cool to see them in game So I wouldn't I'm not gonna be like oh, man, you can check it out. It's gonna be like villainies Yeah, if they know the story I could tell them like oh, yeah, it's when it's gonna be a cutscene of what villain escapes and there's more information They're like that's all cool But that's that like is the only thing that I can think of that is that is a lore moment in game that I wouldn't necessarily want to spoil So yeah, if you know what I mean, yeah, yeah, well that I don't mean But like well one it always bothered me how like small Argus was like all this stuff like important It's like within like six feet of each other but Putting that aside like yeah, it's I mean if they can integrate lore like that Like that's always you know that's always enjoyable when they can do that and especially when it lines up with what we know Um, you know like that's one of the reasons why like I didn't I felt like the the dragon was it the legacies kind of You know like that's why like those first two I felt like they kind of missed a little bit only because like you know like we've seen all this lore before we've read all this lore before And it's like I get like they had to compress like an entire book into like you know like a two-minute segment So obviously you're gonna you know take liberties and whatnot, but it was like But it wasn't for me though, right because there's a lot of people who would like to get into the lore But they don't want to do it outside the game so that was there we have bring it into the game so people can see it and stuff Or something simple like you two versus reading novels, right? But we should start reading the novel or the novels the novels read the novel I don't you might get in trouble if you just read them on YouTube. I'm just down yeah Yeah, we'd probably advise not to do that Props out that business idea It's like audio books about YouTube.
It's like that's that's just copyright infringement Blizzard wants to pay me to do that. How will you do that looking for work? It'd be great Our YouTube channel read books question my question my profit. Yeah, it is My new job found it.
There we go. There it is. That's a callback for you. That's good I guess as far as dragon flight goes, I mean, you know, as I said, we're pretty confident that they know where the story's going I think at least for this expansion where you know, we're I wouldn't say we're cautiously optimistic We are explicitly optimistic.
I don't think there's any need for caution at this point. No, no, I'm obviously very confident in it So which patch are you saying we'll get to the emerald dream jin? 10 points in my version 10 points on I just want to say I do like you don't make the emerald dream happen Insert. Yeah, it's a classic Yeah, um, but yeah, like it definitely feels like very optimistic story and everything like that.
I just have a couple like I don't know I guess I would like to call him nitpicks, but they're just like, huh, they're like a little interesting moments of It like have you like been thinking so far like when you look at cat guard and you're like, so what is it you do here? I mean, yeah, you you helped out in you know the azure span And then we also he helped out in the vault in the vault in the incarnate But he's definitely not legion or like warlords hanging around or something like where he was like omnipresitive like pokka said say like hey Hey, we're doing the thing. Hey So do you remember before legion or drag-in flight came out? There was a promo for it that identified cat guard as a dragon and I think sinev, you had to go get a mistake That's incorrect like whoever wrote that know what they were saying.
Um, is it possible that maybe they did and like he was doing damage control? I mean, I mean maybe but maybe we find out the end surprise. He was a dragon home alone I will say if that is the case that is that that that is it just a one of those like oh like a retcon where it's like Oh, there's the first ones in this and that where it's like retraactive continuity of just explaining more in the in the background This is more stuff happen. No, that's straight up change.
That's just that's just yeah I think that would really upset a lot of people. Yeah, that's just that's what that is What if it turns out this cat guard is a dragon I want to say this cat guard because we know that you know we came back in warlords He had the whole model and you look younger and you didn't have the beard and the little skull cap anymore And we're assuming it's the same guy even though as far as we can tell like yeah, okay shaved and you know He looks great, but what if like old cat guard is still out in original outland doing something and the dragon was like hey Do you mind if I just be you Some dragon shows up like hey man, um, I haven't really picked my visage form yet. Um, I was thinking of you It's like me well you but hot It's like a shave the beard, you know, it's not even terrible You know, right? See see you got a little problem going on and you just say you need a little bit of a blow up You know a little bit of blow up and if anyone asks they're like oh my gosh I thought I got was like a bajillion years old and he's like the whizin wizard Algebra guy shaved it was it was time so yeah, I think that's what they're maybe maybe the original Caggar is still in that lands he's investigating the naaru and he'll come back in the next expansion one That's all about light and void and be like you guys the naaru.
They're not all you think they are. We're like we know Kids Yeah I think I think caggers use is probably not done in this expansion But even then if you think about it if you put yourself in caggar shoes and all this cool stuff is happening With the dragons and you could hang on island has a bunch of dragons just hanging around chilling and flying in the air And there's a small chance you could be useful as a point because while the bad stuff happening I'd hang around you for just kick it watch a dragon for a while. I would totally hang around Yeah, I don't know. It's just I'm I'm very happy that they pulled a little caggar to retire every time just like all right What uh, uh, you just you just chillin with the caggers.
Is that what you're doing? All right Well, I mean he did need to like make his family a family again, like so maybe caggers like You know, he's like looking at caligrams. He's like, can I like can I be your family? I'll be at your family.
I'm kind of lonely too. We blew dragonfly guy Isn't it Madeira that caggar should be well, maybe I started a family. I guess they're kind of old for that. I don't think I'm spacing on who that even is I'm legion caggar was like I gotta get a coin for That's kind of that's right.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because even then though was the who's the one Uh, is she a blood elf or she dragons? She's a blood elf a member of the expeditionary crew when caggar shows up Which like who ordered the rest of the hot wizard or something like that when he shows up at the uh, the one tower Like caggar to bite on that.
So I'm assuming he's I'm assuming that he you know, he's tied down somewhere Not literally all the way. Uh, yeah archmage Madeira. Yeah, she is a member of the six Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that caggar.
I want to get a little bit up of that. Yeah, that's nice All right. Yeah, you get some of that caggar All right, good for him. We don't know what the dating scene was like in outline all those years, so Well, it's just he's got make up for last time He's in such an awkward position because he's not as old as In his mind as his body presents and so it's I did the math He kind of it's the things have kind of intersected.
He is he has now caught up with his look, right? Because now yeah, but now he'll get all hands cut. Oh, yeah, that was like 35 going like sucks Yeah, in fact, the funny thing is that was actually called out in a book one time where he was like, I'm like 25 and look at me I know girl gonna want to bloke date me Like I'm sorry caggar. That's not my problem He's right no girl.
I'm a woman would 25 at the time so he was doing being stupid we get it. I wonder What if hadgar Being old and frail and like the body of an 80 year old with that long beard, you know, his time is coming and You know, so as normal with all people comes to pay his respects and he's like as normal look as I'm dying I've had visions and you need to go back take my identity You can't let them know that you're you because you that's there has to turn in myrrhizan But you can then hide as me and then when you turn in the myrrhizan You can then reveal yourself. I was you the whole time and then there will always be an azdormu Uh, that's like a you would know and I would know that you would know but they wouldn't know so they wouldn't know when you mover's on Then it's i'm erzon but you're myrzon like I don't like I'm confusing That's where cries not storm would be able to see into the future a different timeline. He's having some side issues right now Yeah, I feel like maybe we can get a they can get an america's best there or something Feels to me like like now's dormu is the equivalent of back of the 80s playing with the antennas trying to get a Perception anything and he's doing the you know one hand and a bunny ear gonna leg up in the air Go like I swear i got something to play along it, you know, right?
And then you know, I guess it was real problem is he doesn't have a little brother to do that for him He's gotta do it itself was that your job? Yes, that was my job. I was the antenna It was jin grabbed this freaking antenna. We got watch tv.
So I'm watching it with a weird angle And yeah, that was that was my childhood. I was the I was the antenna when we were watching that channel with bad reception No, I just imagine trying to do that with the blood elf eyebrows just trying to get there I That'd be great Yeah, but maybe that's how maybe that's how crummy is gonna save the day maybe crummy will play the role of younger sibling who will Fix the antennas, you know if it actually helped not as dermoo. I absolutely believe she would crinormoo would do it. Absolutely You do you think crummy Is going to wind up being a villain and I don't know if that means that like i'm legitimately worried about her with this whole no-nause-dormoo I can save you like that feels like the famous last words of someone who winds up joining the infinite dragon flight maybe informing the infinite dragon flight Like i'm very worried about her and do you think like we should be concerned about her?
You think i'm not she's either she's gonna figure this out or she'll catch herself before she goes too far Well, I'm I think i've actually been a little concerned about crummy ever since we had the death of crummy scenarios Yes, because there's still not been any payoff from that. We don't really know what was going on there Was crummy trying to kill herself? You never know that could have been a thing. I know that was one of the speculations that was going around I think at the time since it was legion they're like a legionative.
It's like okay, that's that's not interesting. Uh, make it interesting so Um, so there's a lot of speculation that uh, whatever the freaking name of that infinite dragon was it eternus Eternus was just a future version of crummy because they were pretty chubby by the end of it They're like, you know, you're not that bad either Yeah, you know if I was gonna go tumbling through time with anyone I wanted to be with you So I I had a feeling that crummy may be and not just crummy But at one point all of the bronze dragon flight will become the infinite dragon flight and we don't really know why And I don't know if we'll ever know why but maybe by the end of this expansion we will know so I guess entirely possible and I'm just waiting for the patch where we get more infinite pirate I mean, yes, I want my infinite dragon, but no just in general if I didn't try and flight information and what's So intriguing with them and the bronze dragon flight is it gets all timey Why me wibbly wobbly and all the different timelines and timeways and possibilities They could do so many different things with that story and make it work because of timelines and Also the infinite dragon flight like really really cool. So I want to see more of them Yeah, they do look cool. I like them As long as we get skins for our isn't there an infinite dragon skin, but not yet.
There's a razigat skin That's only like actual skin so far. I have to figure if they put in razigat skin You know, especially now that the other incarnates have been released at some point. We're gonna kill them. We have to get skins for all of them That'd be they were kind of cool.
Can I be alright with that? You know the only one that looked a little silly was actually a rickron It's true And then he's supposed to be he's supposed to be the big bad and you're like i'm a rock but I could fly man Okay, buddy. That makes a lot of sense. Okay Yeah, I'm looking forward to whatever comes with the next three We're in in carnits.
Yeah should be should be fun So are we thinking at this point that there's an incarnate is gonna be the final big bad Or is that gonna be resolved before the big bad of the expansion? I actually can see a rickron a rickron being the big bad, right? And I'm not gonna get into too many spoilers unless you want to but the way Alex rosa was describing a rickron at the end of like a cutscene when he turned in the quest I can definitely see a rickron being either the final boss or the penultimate boss And being with whatever a rickron made the deal with being the final boss, right? Now, I don't know if the a rickron made a deal with the old gods, right?
It could have been old gods Um, I don't know if a rickron made a deal with you know the stone mother or all I know I could have been Could be could be the stone mother, but Yeah, and this one we this one we don't know and we will uh, just all be waiting to find out what all the rickron made that deal with Or who you made the deal with? Oh, yeah, what do you think Nick? Well, you mentioned the the quest that you turn in there I have two characters that I've been rating on and one of them I got the quest but didn't beat razigeth I got every other boss but razigeth the other character I beat razigeth but didn't get the quest So I'll get that all straightened up, but I think personally I think a rickron is gonna be the mid expansion boss and then like he'll set up whoever is coming at the end But that doesn't I wouldn't be disappointed if it turns out like oh no, they're gonna build a rickron properly and let him be To find the boss. I think they have room to do that.
Yeah, you know, he's in position. You know, he's there It's just I think you've got so many people speculating, you know stuff like galakron I don't even know where the galakron speculations started from like it was just all because arse don't get a big thing where they Tried to resurrect galakron a few years ago, and that was really fun. That was really fun expansion in harse don't but now it's like to see You know, everybody's like oh like they're doing wow now and I'm like unless they take the actual harse stone plot because that'll involve A bunch of villains which harse don't do a very good job of setting up their villains But they had a group of villains that stole dalaran and then took dalaran over to galakrons bones and then had a They stole some other artifacts and then they were able to resurrect galakron stuff Um, it was really well done. It was really it was you know, the thing about harse don't is it's kind of tongue-in-cheek the whole time You know serious so they could kind of do it in a jokey yet get serious way Um, I think if they did they tried to do that and why would be a lot different But I don't know I'd be fine I'd be fine if we kind of work our way through You know the the the expansion picking off the incarnates one at a time and let it rid of crime be the final one because you know One of the things about like warlords of Draenor Like they completely misused the warlords as far as like the raid bosses Yeah, they did like we burned through like all of them and like you know, it's like before we even finished leveling All right, yeah car guys was so quick and it didn't make any sense.
It's like oh you're a slave and you were in the fighting pits Go back to the fighting pits to be happy with it like wait Wouldn't he hate the ogres of highball? Why is he here? This is the dumbest thing i've ever seen It's yeah, it's yeah So if they have an opportunity to take those four, you know, like to take like, you know Which should be expansion level threats and paste them out properly as opposed to just cramming them all up front I'd like to see them do that. I think they can do that.
So we'll see but I personally if I want to see definitely again. I don't know how they could bring them back You know time magic or you know somehow we go, you know somebody maybe I'm gonna go through whatever she turns out that she's working with the prime list all this time You know goes to the mail straw. She actually we had her at the mail strong She was in the shaman order hall at the mail strong. So, you know, that's right.
We're definitely was killed So who's to say that she wasn't there working some prime list, you know magic? You know, it took like five years or seven years however long it's been since legion and now, you know, the lava's gurgling up and you know You get you know definitely without a lower jaw because I think what is lower jaw is sitting in either stormwind or arbor So yeah, he looks like the old undead model with the tongue just hanging out and He can only cast spells that have was like somatic and uh physical components nothing nothing with a verbal component. No verbal No verbal components. Yep.
Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I think something like that might be cool, but if it's a reticron, I'm fine with that I mean, I think as we said earlier I think we're confident that they know where they're going with this that they have a plan and barring another Global pandemic. I think we should be okay.
Yeah, because it it feels like at least to me the The kind of story beats the campaign story beats They are using those to kind of like maybe set up future, you know future patches Right. So the first one that we had was rebuilding tier. So obviously that's going to be A thing right and then like one of the next big ones that we dealt with was obviously the renowned 19 storyline where it was you know dealing with the you know, mafiri and misera and all that kind of stuff And that is one of the reasons why I'm like, oh, maybe I'm on dream Maybe I'd be tired for the Apple dream. What could happen?
So like if you were gonna like line it up like what's happening it feels like like we let's use uh say Oh Oh freaking a wrath of Lich King is like the template. All right. So obviously vaulted the incarnates is our Our next and a little bit of uh friggin. I I've turned it in all that whatever starts and all that crap was Um, yeah, that's that's the we got to season one right of that this this whole Uh expansion the next patch we in wrath was obviously old war the plastics all freaking jazz for that.
Yeah, all the bars back. Yeah Um That is actually where I could be like maybe we snotted a little little dream Little detour. Yeah, go there And then obviously we had everyone's favorite raid from a wrath was the uh, you know frickin Do you what is the crap that thing called determined champions or something? I don't know for origin tournament stuff Yeah medieval times basically And uh medieval times we're gonna joustin some crap like that.
It'll be great. Um, yeah, I don't know if they're doing that that type of team Or anymore. So we're just gonna say they're gonna skip that and then we're gonna move right into dealing with it right o'clock I kind of feel like that's probably gonna be Think that's the best speculation. I come over with right there.
That's my speculation Do you think there's a possibility that they build up to an Odin villain at the end? Uh, no Odin thinks here and there over time. Yeah, I I just don't know if Odin's ever gonna be truly Zibad guy Right. Is he is he a bad guy?
Yeah, he's a bad guy. What is he a bad guy? Yeah, but but no because I mean the one time we did fight him. He was just like, I'm just testing you I'm just testing you.
All right. All right. All right. It's good enough.
You can go kill. Hell yeah now. All right So it's like I just don't see him being zibad guy, but I don't know. We'll see I got way into the prime is the true villain of shadowlands theories a few months ago.
Oh, yeah I was going to make you drechorus and We had a listener write send an email and basically said like they're not gonna do that because you can get that title hand of the Primus and that would not fit if like the prime is not to be a villain. You know, he's probably right Like I was getting a little bit of character with it And I kind of feel the same way about Odin like he's the leader of the warrior class hall Like I can't as much as it would make sense like he's not a fair He's not a great person But just the fact that at one point like you're working working with him like that then for him to turn it again They didn't make the worksheet the bad guy twice. So maybe but it's like a unique word thing. I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah Odin has always seemed like one of those characters that he He's trying to do the right thing. He's kind of like an illidan in that way where it's like well This is what has to happen. I'm the only one that can do it.
So I'm just gonna do it Right. That's that's how Odin comes across to me and he is way more I don't know cheesy. I guess Then then illidan illidan's like that broody emo guy that everyone's like oh, I love illidan's great, right? Like we all love diligence.
I can't school character. I mean also Critical role of the dude whatever his name does the voice of one does a great job. Sounds great We were right. Yeah, there you go and uh and oatons.
It's like I'm for an oaton Smash your face. No, give me a shirt Odin Odin feels like that guy who is so self-righteous Yeah, incorrectly but so self-righteous and so self-assured that for us to be the ones to give him this come up And it doesn't feel right like he needs to be the one to screw up so bad that that's what bites him in the ass I would very sad and then we show up and he's just completely broken and beaten not quite dead You don't kill him in that situation, but you leave him like right next to being dead where he realizes like yeah, I messed up I messed up bad and then he kills him technical to the heart boom gone Decapitated because like I could I could see a situation where again going back to like the Lord of Ravens will turn the key if that's oaton Odin goes and he's like I have to turn this key because that's what I need to do That's gonna fix everything and then like it literally blows up in his face like it Oh god shows up and just blipes the floor of them and then we show up to be the old god And there's Odin, you know completely crumbled and bleeding and maybe you lost his other eye now And he's just really back and you know, he has to deal with his failure Well, he watches us, you know, take care of business I think we're gonna go ahead wrap it up there I mean, there's been a very good discussion and I want to continue what we've been going on for a while so So let's go ahead wrap it up there Jin, where can people find you? Well, if you are so inclined that you would like to reach out to me you can do so on Twitter I am at jinsjoint, you know, we've all seen Casablanca, right? Jinjoint, right?
You get the idea. There it is. Yeah, so yeah, that's the best way of Jinjoint. Yeah, plural Jinjoint.
You get the idea And then, um, Ali is also on the show that I'm on It's called Live, Laugh, Laura It's a fun little show that you should probably listen to if you like what we were talking about here Because a lot of the conversations are very similar are had over there And it's just me and Ali going like, well, what if this? But what if this and then we get like spin off and it's got fun So yeah, and you can just like that Yeah, and you can find the show on Twitter live on score laugh underscore lore and just search live, laugh, Laura and any podcast player and find it Ali, where can people find you? Well, there's live on floor, of course And you can also find me on dungeon fables when I do myself You can also find that wherever you get your podcast at or on Twitter at dungeon fables And in general, just go to Ali, on Twitter and that you find me twitched you'll find everything It's it's all the things I need to thank you for letting me get the goblin water machine You're welcome I'm glad you got it So also, thank you to Jared for producing and editing and also thank you everybody at home for downloading and listening This has been the tour of the goblin number 154 we are at tour and goblin on twitter also at the mesh network Facebook.com slash match those buttons also youtube.com slash match those button I am at wikb h on twitter You can also find me here on wow talk about work We're using your management and also on squad goals unless that's already done I don't know when this is coming out relative to the end of that series But yeah, we talked about Mass Effect there. It was good time Join the match those buttons community on discord and mash.gg slash discord and email us with any questions or comments at tour and goblin to mash.g Use the episode link in the show notes to find all the ways you can connect with us and our community You can also look in our show directory and match those buttons.com slash shows if you enjoyed this episode Will you help us out please share it with others and make review our favorite podcast platform choice Which is for us directly is a match.gg slash support All the ways you can support match those buttons and stay tuned to hear about other shows on the match those buttons network Thank you guys again for coming on it was really great talking to you It was a really enjoyable time and I look forward to having you guys on again in the future It was fun.
Thank you. Thanks. That was a ton of fun We're june and alie. I'm Nick.
Ancestors watch over you Uh, wash your back or something whatever to work say Do all the dragon races