The fact that people have been by large coming together, keeping their spirits up worldwide, that's not how the movies play out. The movies play out that as soon as this happens, the governments have to come in and crack down, go indoor the door, round the door, round the door, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And it's been a while, and I'm shocked by how mature everyone is, and glad how mature everyone is being. And frankly, I'm also shocked and delighted by how much the politicians are keeping it together, how there's a lot of all right, let's, at least calling the US, they're calling Boris, they're calling South Korea President Moon, they're like, all right, what do we need to do, what's working over there, what's working here.
And there's a very, and they're also being, other than obviously China, as transparent as possible. Here's what we're doing, here's the numbers, here's what's working for us, here's not what's working for you. And I think that makes people feel a lot like, all right, they're on it. Michael, mother, Funkin' Malice in the building, how are you?
Boy, brother, yeah, good to be here. I got the knife. I got the knife. Come on, how are you?
Yeah, it's wrong. So I feel like we need to bridge the gap between our first episode and this one, because this is like someone watching season one of Michael and Chris, and they're watching season five of Michael and Chris. And there's a whole bunch of narrative that's gone, and now we're living together, we own a dog. I've met your parents, I'm considering proposing all that sort of stuff.
And... It's been so fine. It's been five seasons. Season five's getting serious, man.
So I want to ask you, what have you learned since we've been friends? So it's funny, I'm going to ask that question a second. I just finished reading this book, which is called Gumption Island, which is a forgotten book. It came out in 1956 by Felix Morley.
He was a Pulitzer winner for the first one to win a Pulitzer for the Washington Post. He was one of the founders of the Mount Pelerines Society. He later became a prominent anti-war right-winger. And the book takes place, basically the premise is there's this community in Maryland, in America, they're hit by the Soviets with a weapon, and they throw them back in time to the dinosaur era.
And what's amazing about this book, there's all sorts of action that happens off screen, like you were just mentioning, and I'm reading it, I'm like, I missed something. Like the Russian character marries the daughter of the other prominent character, and you only find this out when they're like, well, ever since you guys get married, I'm like, wait, they were never being... The ceremony, yeah. They're dating.
One of the kids is eaten by a pterodactyl, and it's never mentioned again. I'm like, hold, isn't this is a problem when children are being eaten by anything? And then there's this whole subplot where the bankers in this community want to have a coup and basically seize control. And like five pages later, it's like, well, ever since we had to impeach blah, blah, blah, I'm like, wait, the coup d'ale, like it's so crazy reading like this.
So what have I learned since we've been friends? You and I probably chat on a daily basis this point, I think. You're probably the closest person in my life who I've never met. And I think we come out of life from probably different perspectives but similar wiring, very, very different life experiences, but a similar approach, beginning extreme intensity, intellectual curiosity, pride, yet self-awareness, I think.
Maybe we all fail in some of those, maybe not others. So I think one of the things I have... Well, you've given me some fitness advice, which has been very useful. But I mean, since this became pals, it's this mates, I think they say over there, this whole virus thing, obviously hits.
So that's obviously thrown a number for almost... The one thing I've learned, I would say, if I put one thing is that I have a bigger... This is going to stand pompous and I don't care. I have a bigger audience than I've realized, and that there are people who, when I do craft like this, it actually gives them something to do.
So I better get off my ass and do it. I don't have the space to be kind of in hermit mode. I can agree, man. There's an analogy that I use all the time about the hero in the mythological stories.
And it's like, it's the unwilling hero. The hero has to go and slay the dragon, not because he wants to, but because he can. And because he can, he has to. It's like, if no one else is going to go slay the dragon.
And I said this to you, I was, I can't remember where I was, I was driving somewhere, I was talking away. And I was like, man, like, you have a particular coalition of skill, like a Liam Neeson I have a very particular set of skills. And you have a very particular set of skills. And if now isn't the time for people who can make their audience feel connected and like they're a part of something, if now isn't the time to do it during a global pandemic where everyone can't literally can't leave the house, then when is that time?
Yeah, but for me personally, there's two big issues with that. One is, and I just had to block some on social media because they were just rolling their eyes. I'm an extreme introvert. I do not do well with groups, which is not, you know, which is, is keep misunderstanding, introversion is.
And also, it's the kind of thing where I don't want to think, it's obnoxious to think of yourself as these people you've never met, you're having an effect on their life. It's like, all right, get over yourself. But it's like, well, the data is there. So they think this, because this isn't how I entertain myself and this isn't how I get out of my funk, I don't watch podcasts.
It's not my thing. I get very, very rest, you know, and part of the reason is I'm a talker, right? And part, so when I have to sit and listen to people talking and the more interesting the conversation, the more I want to be engaged in that conversation. So inevitably, it would become a source of frustration rather than something.
I mean, for me, it's a very, of all the activities. This is the one where I wouldn't want to be on the bench. I don't have that anymore. Here's an interesting thing about cricket for you.
So as I guess kind of similar to baseball, but baseball inherently speeds up the batting process, because it's after three strikes or a couple of balls, maybe you could have like some strikes, some balls, or whatever, 10 minutes, probably at most. The bat is something's either a base or he's back in the dugout. Whereas there's guys in cricket, I've played games where one batsman has been at the crease, as it's called out on the field for days, multiple days that a batsman's done that. And if there's not a lot of other players getting out, that means that, especially if you bat down the order further down, you're just sat in a pavilion, watching the game unfold.
Like there is no more lackadaisical sport on the planet than cricket. You're just there like observing it happen. One of the most annoying things about cricket, and I do have something annoying, is that in 1990, when Sir Jeffrey Howe was turned on Thatcher and he stood up in the house of commons and he had his speech that took her down days later, and he was just using a cricket metaphor to talk about why she's horrible. She's got to go and it's like, it's like going to the crease only to find out you're something has broken or something.
And everyone in the house of commons, like holy crap, I'm like, I don't know what these words are, like crease. You know, so it's just like, dude, if you're going to have this speech, which is going to go international, very historic, this is the Judas speech, like at least have it be university. So I don't think cricket is played outside of like former British Empire colleagues, right? It's not played like France, is it?
Yeah, it is played in France. Definitely British colonies, I think overtakes South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, UK, like, I'm in Canada, even plays it. I'm not sure. Yeah, maybe not.
I don't think they do. I'm very think they can culture. I'm not sure if Americans have the patience for cricket, man. Well, do now.
Fucking everyone's got the patience for everything. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I want to I want to bring up probably the best story that I've seen recently, which is about Rishi, Rishi, Sunak, who is the British Chancellor.
And this is in the independent yesterday. Your strange crush on Rishi Sunak could actually be a racist fetish. But yeah, so a real Hello, do you know Helen from roses? Pluck rose.
Pluck rose. Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry. Yeah.
Yeah. So she she was the one who and a couple of her friends, they actually say friends colleagues, I'm sorry, she wrote an article for some peer reviewed journal just filled a jargon and it was incoherent and she got it through and she's really excellent on Twitter and she's one of the people I resent who doesn't follow me back. But that's okay. And she made the point that the social justice subculture, you start with the reverse with the conclusion and you're reaching your way backwards.
And that's an example she is. She's talking about cashiers. So if you are kind of don't talk to the minority cashier, you're racist. But if you talk to them too much, you're fetishizing them.
So you can't win. And this is an example. Like so if you don't like a person as a minority in power, you're obviously prejudiced. But if you do like him, you clearly like them for the wrong reasons and you just can't win.
I don't know what this person is. They have across the pond. But it's the guy who is for a period was going on TV. It's Rishi, Rishi Sunak.
The British chance he's a man who's in charge of our budget at the moment. He's the guy that went on TV and said we are finding 330 billion pounds. We will be paying everybody 80% of their wages because it is important for us. I said we would get it done and we will get it done when I meant we will get like do he killed it.
Like season one of the British government was awesome. Then in season two, they killed off Rishi and Boris because they've been in isolation. Let's get a choice of words. Not going to be a Boris with us.
I'm just going to drop him. Sorry. I just had this tweet. I go I wish for the health of Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbin.
I know it's so clear now, but if a world leader goes down, people are really going to start freaking out and the consequences there are really, really going to be disproportionate regardless of what you think Boris Johnson is the devil. Andrew Doyle found a bunch of tweets of people saying, I hope that Boris passes away. I hope that he dies. And you think how just how short sight did you have to be for that to be the sort of thing that you decide to go out with your way to type on a keyboard and press send?
Well, it's two things. Let's let's let's I'll do them at their own game. Right. Let's let's be out out soulless.
If that happens, this is going to get people to like the conservatives more because now they have a martyr. He's going to be retroactively regarded as a hero because we always look people finally when they pass them when they're alive. And so this is not going to get you the result that you want. And again, not to mention the social unrest that will happen as a consequence.
So there's this one of the greatest essays I've ever read online. In fact, I could probably name only five essays that are read online that are super is by Slate Star Codex. And he had this piece called I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup. Are you familiar with this?
No. Meditations on Moloch by Scott Alexander on Slate Star Codex is probably the best thing I've read in the last two years. Yeah, he's so this piece is a masterpiece because he went through social media and he compared people's reactions to when Thatcher died to when Bin Laden died. And he pointed out that when Thatcher died, you know, the song Ding Dong the Witch is Daddy's in the charts.
And when Bin Laden died, there were plenty of people who were like, come on, this is a human being, even though he was evil. And this dissonance, he points out is similar. I don't think he uses this analogy to the uncanny valley. The idea that when mannegan's or cartoons become a little too lifelike, but a little not lifelike enough, that little spot, it's actually very disturbing as opposed to when they look exactly like humans or when they look like cartoons.
And it's like when someone is close to us, but just a little off, we are much more put off with them and are much more hateful, then his summit is completely outside the fold. Yeah, it's a it's a weird one, man. The way the people have been reacting. But yeah, okay, that's not used to would kill off.
They got rid of them from season two. So I'm hoping on Monday, season three of the British government restarts, and I'm hoping that they bring them back that they do like King in the North type game of Thronesy stuff. I'm just really sad that Rebecca Longbelly didn't get the nod because I was a huge fan of hers because she's a real life to tiny of a graph. And she was saying how she's she lit her.
This is her line that she's inequality keeps her up at night. And it's like, I mean, this is it would have been fascinating to see because I feel like Boris Johnson and her are both kind of caricatures of people and a certain political stance. So watching that kind of like it would, but it'll feel much more like a movie than adults having adult. Yeah, versus cliche.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, man. The next thing. So there's only two things really that I've got to bring up.
The second one is this David interview on London Real. Have you seen anything about this? If I hadn't brought it up to you over message, would you have seen anything? I I told you I thought it was pronounced London Real.
Isn't there a city called Real Madrid? Is that a sports team? Real Madrid is the team from Madrid in something. Yeah, London.
I assume London Real is something to do with that. Like maybe it's the British. I'm not even the British fan base for Real Madrid. Okay.
No, it's I mean, it would actually probably be more fun if it was that. But let me start there. Are there British fans of teams in other countries? Yeah, some.
Okay. Not a lot. I think when you come from the country where the top flight of soccer football is played, people they get sucked in. But I'm there will be.
I'm sure I've got a couple of friends. I know that support some French teams and a couple that support some. I think it would tend to be that you would have a preference when other foreign teams were playing each other. Sure.
But in domestic games, you'll have your own team as well. Who's the most popular foreign team in the UK? Would you say? That is a good question.
Juventus perhaps, I've likely come at a Madrid Real Madrid by Munich. Maybe there's some football fans just screaming at the phone into their air pods at the moment telling me what it is. But I think I think they would probably be up there all the European ones. I don't think anyone's going to be loving LA Galaxy or something like that.
I don't think that there's going to be. So yeah, David like, you know David Ike is no. David Ike is a British. How would you conspiracy theorist?
Oh, I don't know. I thought I was brown sticky. I'm not because we have somebody who harled the key here. He's with a little little bit of people with Colorado.
Correct. David. David. I'm not sure.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Thank you. So he did an episode about three weeks ago on London Real with with Brian Rose, who I've felt a little bit off with for quite a while.
I'll get into that in a second. Didn't episode talking about how Corona virus, you know, we don't know what it is. What even is what is Corona for other people up top? They don't want you to know.
And so they did basically was that for three hours. Then at the start of this week, when I say Monday, he brought him back in. So first things first, our company is under a national lockdown mandated by the government. Brian has brought a 60s year old man into his office.
Not only has he brought him in, but Brian's had to go in. Brian's not a spring chicken and videographer, photographer, Sandes makes their production assistant, you know, all that stuff. So they've gone in during a government mandate lockdown to record this episode. They record it.
I've listened to the full thing. And David Ike says he opens up and he got taken down of YouTube. I'll get into that in a second. But if you go into Apple podcasts, four minutes and 33 seconds, he says the sentence, this is David, like, this is the headline.
There is no COVID-19. It doesn't exist. So that's how he opens up, right? That's that's the headline of this, he says himself, it's self-defined.
And then on Tuesday, YouTube takes a video down. YouTube deletes. It had a live stream. It was very well watched.
It was garnering a lot of attention, obviously. And they take it down. It takes a little bit of time. Brian gets in touch with them and says, finally, finally speaks to them.
And they said, we have a policy at the moment. And now any videos that are saying that COVID-19 is fake, or that it's related to 5G as subject to this same taking down. Now, the problem is that because they took it down, it's turned from being a discussion about the credence behind David Ike's arguments to now a free speech issue. And it's immediately just they're trying to censor the truth, bro.
That's the first thing that everyone has now. And I don't believe that YouTube are right in taking it down. I don't think that there was some evidence that people had set five to five G towers in the UK, but it wasn't as if it was incited by that episode. So I don't really think that they have any reason to do that.
But they did. And now Brian Rose has been on an absolute war path, like fuck the BBC, fuck Facebook, fuck Instagram, I don't even need you. Very narcissistic, very, very self involved, incredibly self involved. And that's kind of been one of the biggest things that's happened in the internet in the UK this week.
Been pretty mad. Well, it's funny. He had the exact opposite reaction that I had. My reaction is no one cares what you have to say.
So I can just sit in my ass and be fine. Obviously, he's got a much bigger audience than I do. And his reaction goes, everyone cares about to say. And if I don't do this, this is a kind of world threat to the world.
This hasn't crossed over here. I am, I don't know about this being a free speech issue, what I am concerned about and I've talked to many of my friends, you know, I'm an anarchist and very, very skeptical of government power. But we are all very happy that in every country, it hasn't become riding. It hasn't become civil unrest that, yeah, sure, these laws are in place.
But I think people are more than happy to do this voluntarily. And I'm shocked and delighted how much, because we've all seen the thing that I was having a very big issue with this whole situation was transitioning. I'm a New Yorker. I've been here in my life.
And you and I talked about this on the phone, how it was very difficult for me psychologically as a New Yorker to see the streets being empty. It's something I just couldn't just I felt like I was in a movie or a crazy person. And there were movies like I'm Legend of Vanilla Sky where you've seen this, but the seat in reality, it just was a disconnect. And this had, you laugh, but this really had really bad psychological consequences.
So, and no, you're right to laugh. But at the same time, I am glad. And the fact that this happens so quickly is also that there was no real transition. It's overnight, like don't get in your house and come up.
The fact that people have been buying large, coming together, keeping their spirits up worldwide, that's not how the movies play out. The movies play out that as soon as this happens, the governments have to come in a crackdown to go into the door, rounding people up or whatever blah, blah, blah. And I know in South Korea, the thing about putting these bracelets right and so on and so forth. And we haven't gotten there yet, but it's been a while.
And I'm shocked by how mature everyone is and glad how mature everyone is being. And frankly, I'm also shocked and delighted by how much the politicians are keeping it together. How there's a lot of all right, let's at least calling the US, they're calling Boris, they're calling South Korea, President Moon, they're like, all right, what do we need to do? What's working over there?
What's working here? And there's a very and they're also being other than obviously China as transparent as possible. Here's what we're doing. Here's the numbers.
Here's what's working for us. Here's not what's working for you. And I think that makes people feel a lot like, all right, they're on it. Yeah, I can agree, man.
Like the response has been surprisingly mature from everyone, public and government. And of course, there's people online who are rolling their eyes right now, but like, how can you say that given X, Y, and Z? Well, yes, I'm saying that considering that information that you also have given that negative stuff and the positive stuff, I am the fact that we're not in Lord of the flies, the fact that we're not in that max, the fact that we're not in, you know, we had rights in Baltimore, we had rights in St. Louis, not that long ago, the fact obviously it's harder to riot when there's disease around, but writing is not irrational.
Like, you know, you don't sit at home, you're like, all right, when would it be most feasible to riot, right? It's a powder kick. Here's another one that we haven't had home invasions, things like this, and people getting down from being raped in their homes. I mean, this is sitting ducks.
That is really gratifying. And this is another reason I'm a hardcore optimist, and I'm a hardcore optimist not because it's my nature. I'm Russian born, it's my nature's the opposite. I'm a hardcore optimist because look at the data.
And if you're going to be a cynic and you looked at the situation now, you predict, oh, people are going to be starving, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, no, no, people are really bending over backwards to maintain the social order. Now we'll see how long this lasts, but it's lasted quite a bit of time already. The thing that is becoming increasingly challenging for me, and I don't know whether this is just too unexposed to online or some of the stuff is it's an easy step from that to the conspiracy theorist types that believe there's a second motive to everything that's going on for them to say, well, see, this just proves how compliant the public is when the government decide that they're going to shove their hard rod of fucking policy.
They're eroding your rights, they're taking away this, they're taking away that and you're like, dude, fucking give it a rest. Like, what's your alternative genuinely? What is your alternative to this? Would you rather that people were so Brian Rose again?
Like, the guy is brazenly walking around London filming videos 10 30. Hey guys, 10 30 p.m. London real offices just finished up here. Just wanted to give you an update.
Like Brian, mate, there is a fucking video. Now I click. Yeah, yeah, you send me that video. I didn't understand.
I said you I sent you a video of him by day on the roof top on the rooftop of government of London real offices saying just finished work out here, London real HQ, done some kettlebells, some sprints, bit of break dancing in the stairwell. Can you imagine coming down the stairs to find Brian Rose from London, Rayal doing break dancing on the landing? Brian, can you stop fucking power wind milling, please? I'm trying to get to the so I mean, that's just you're not above the law.
And he keeps on saying one of the things he keeps bringing up is we have this little thing in America called the First Amendment, yeah, the Constitution. I'm like, the elephant in the room, Brian, is that you are not in America. Like, you're in the UK, we have hate speech laws over here for better or for worse. Most people would say for worse, but can't down kill all these people that have been, you know, criminal records locked up, etc, etc, for this.
And this is at the same time. So the chief constable of Northampton, North Hampshire police. So that's a real person. That sounds like a title that we would make up to make fun of you.
The chief constable of the white, Northampton, ship police. How many so? When your title is a sentence, yeah, she's constable of Northampton, Shia police said people are persistently and consistently breaking the law by flouling lockdown and they could get criminal record. He's issued essentially, um, broader scope for his officers to enforce the law.
And he mentions he's like, we'll check if we need to, we have the ability to check what people have in their shopping, to check whether or not they're going out to buy an Xbox controller or they're going out to buy milk. And if you're buying an Xbox controller, we'll find you. That's not where they're at, but that's where he's getting to. All the while Brian Rose from London, Rayal is getting a senile old man to come and talk about lizard people in his offices in the center of one of the most populous cities on the planet during the middle of a global pandemic.
And I can't, like it's just really, I already had a Brian was already on my watch list. He was already on my client list. And now he's just like gone straight to the top. I don't know that I think particularly to add to what you just said.
I mean, I can see how that would be. I think there's also probably an emotional sense. This part of you that how is it that no good he goes and punish like you're playing by the rules. You're trying to stay safe and you're locked in your house.
And this guy gets to do what you wish you could be doing, break dancing the stairwell. I don't know. Listen to myself. So it's kind of like it's when people who are rules breakers but in an obnoxious way get rewarded.
I think that sets up our sense of justice. Yeah. I think as well, there's something incredibly insincere about the way again, because you can't frame it up against his character. It's a little bit more difficult.
But anyone that's listening will know, I mean, if they know Brian, Brian Rose, he was taking selfies on the London Underground a while ago before Mandate lockdown was in. But when suggested isolation was still going, it was just him, just him on the London Underground, an empty carriage, essentially being like, I am here. Look at me. I am a thought leader within this space.
And he kept on talking about we need leaders and men of action. I'm like, we need people to stay in the fucking houses, Brian. You need to go break dancing your living room and you need to just do what every other podcaster when Joe Rogan is doing episodes of Skype with like fucking Dan Crenshaw and other other guests the other day. And he has been the most like, uh, voracious advocate for not doing that.
He's like, I hate doing episodes of a Skype. You know, when he's prepared to bend his rules and he's the biggest on the planet what he does, like, why, why, why can't you, especially when you bring in an OAP in? See, if this, if this, if this Brian guy was smart, he would make a point which does have historical basis. And I just talked about this earlier on a radio show today here in the States.
Um, 1918 was when the US entered the Great War. And this was for many of the, at the time, progressives, a huge thing because they're like, all right, we're going to this war. We're going to have our fantasy that we've been advocating for a couple of decades now of having the state manage the entire country, basically like one giant company. So now we have to do it.
We have complete centralization of production, centralization of taxation. We're going to have institute censorship and both the males, uh, things like that. So for them, they're like, if we're going to go into this great war, like we're going to get a lot of useful data out of it by seeing how much we can get away with and what it's going to look like. So that when the Great Depression hit, uh, 14 years later, or excuse me, 11 years later, and then FDR was elected in 33, a lot of his new deal programs, they were like, all right, we went through this during a war.
Now you're not going to envision known that we're doing it during the Great Depression because you've already been preconditioned. It's like the second time you get into a fight versus the first time you get in a fight, it's going to be night and day because you're like, all right, I've been through this. It sucks. So he does have a point in that if in five years some government was like, we need to do this totalitarianism.
A lot of people would be saying sincerely, guys, it's not going to be that bad. We've been through this before and we've all done it. So stop your complaining. So they are unnecessarily.
I don't think as he's saying intentionally, I'm sorry, like sure, I'll, I'll accept the fact that every politician on some will have a sociopath. But when you look at how they talk, all everyone I've seen from around the world, they all are freaking out, not freaking out, but they're all extremely concerned. They all feel the weight of this on their shoulders. They all have families, you know, they all have moms and grandparents or whatever, things like that.
Um, and they're like, all right, like, how do we get out of this? I don't think they're thinking long term, this is our globalist moment to implement the master plan. I think they're taking very short term. Absolutely.
Yeah. When the lizard people's parents and grandparents are dying just as quickly as everyone else is, you kind of just, it's the same thing as if you fall into quicksand, right? You don't have an existential crisis when you're falling into quicksand. You just think about getting out.
There's this concept by Matthew Sayad that I have to tell you about, right? It's called compensatory control. Have you heard about this? No.
Why conspiracy theories and demagogues spread in times of worrying and uncertainty? This is Matthew Sayad's piece in the times. Oh, can I guess what his answer is? Yes.
And let's see if I'm right. Okay. Are you saying he's on the level, this guy? What's I mean?
Are you saying that what he's saying actually ports the truth or is using his example? Is he going to say that in times of panic, any kind of explanation that's kind of an outcomes razor that gives people a sense of certainty is enormously emotional reassuring? You are a very clever man. You are.
Oh, yeah. He's right. He's absolutely right. Man, let me hit you with this.
So psychologists have conducted experiments to shed light on why people lose or at least suspend rationality. One experiment asked people to imagine going to a doctor to hear an uncertain medical diagnosis. Such people were significantly more likely to express the belief that God was in control of their lives. Another asked participants to imagine a time of deep uncertainty when they feared for their jobs or the health of their children.
They were far more likely to see a pattern in meaningless static or to infer that two random events were connected. This is such a common finding that psychologists have given it a name, compensatory control. When we feel uncertain, when randomness intrudes upon our lives, we respond by reintroducing order in some other way. Superstitions and conspiracy theories speak to this need.
It is not easy to accept that important events are shaped by random forces. This is why for some, it makes more sense to believe we are threatened by the grand plans of malign scientists than some chance mutation in a silly little micro. Yeah. And there's a couple examples of this.
I give and talk to networking and I tell the kids I go, if you're don't aspire to excellence, it's not going to be possible at your age with your skillset, aspire to competence. If you're competent, you're at the 80th percentile. And an example I use is I would rather you tell me, you'll have it on Wednesday and I'll have it on Wednesday. Then you tell me you'll have it on Monday and give it to me on Tuesday.
It doesn't make sense if you think about it. But in other sense, it does reassuringly. I there's a therapist I know his wife had this disease after 9-11 so and so forth. People would rather like the fight example, right?
Like if you've never been to fight, what the hell is it? Once you've been, it sucks, but the irrational fear is not there. A disease, they found yet people would rather say, you've got leukemia than go on for years and they don't know what you're going to know. You know what you've got.
Yeah. And that's just how we're wired. And I cannot, we could all understand if we think about it. I mean, we want to bring all the chaos.
Yeah. What about like a relationship? Like what's going like what's most of Facebook thing? It's said it's complicated.
Like we'd rather be like, all right, it's done a lot of times when things are ambiguous. Like, I can't even deal with this after breaking up as opposed to I don't know what the situation is. Have you heard of the zygonic effect? No.
What's that? Okay. So just how the brain has open and closed loops and it's a writing tool actually, which might be interesting for you to know considering that you might start writing against soon. And this was used by, oh my God, a very famous author and there's going to be people shouting at the podcast against saying who it is, very famous author back in the day who would use this.
Essentially, the brain doesn't like open loops and it does like closed loops. However, open loops can be manipulated. So for instance, let's say that you do a day of writing and you finish your session at night, you could finish the sentence one word in rather than at full stop, because then when you come back to it the next day, that loops open rather than closed. So you just continue an open loop rather than having to reopen a brand new one that's on the back end of something that's being closed off.
It's the same reason why we don't like, like you say, Cliff Hanger endings at the end of a TV series. They're so compelling. We need to watch the next season of Michael and Chris, because we want to know what happens next, right? We need to know.
That's what gets them, zygonic effect, open loop, close loop. That's interesting. That's actually speaks to how I write and then we're going to talk about your short because I'm very curious. When I write, I do three pages at a session and then I force myself to stop.
So that means I never have writer's block because I have more in the can tomorrow and I know I'm not going to have to. I'm picking up where I left off. Do you have a note taking for like, you might have all of these ideas right now and kind of forget, do you just sort of throw them down on a separate document or if I have like a future scene or future section in the book, I'll hit return twice and I'll write that. And then when I go back and edit, I'll put the space in between.
So that must be beautiful to reach a section that you need to write and find a past version of yourself has already written it for you. Like a present from past Michael to present Michael. I've been doing a lot of this time travel, kind of thinking. I had this tweet, which I thought was really helpful, which is if you're someone who's dealing very poorly with isolation, if you have suicidal ideation or depression or anxiety, I said write a note to yourself when you are going to be freaking out because this is your rational self traveling in time to talk to your future self and you'll know that this person is telling the truth in writing.
And I said, and you and I did this. I said, also make a promise to someone that if things get really bad, you'll hit them up and you'll know that promise things are bad. I got to talk to this person before I do anything crazy. And when we do these notes, another thing is I'm going to be a little frivolous is with like maintaining your if you're on a regimen, you're eating a certain way.
The reason diets don't work is if it's it will power is finite. So if you're constantly having to have what I'm going to eat, what I'm going to eat, you're going to at some point have a disorder thinking and you start eating the wrong thing and becomes a spiral. Whereas if you tell yourself, this is what you're eating for this week, you know, no matter what you're feeling in that moment, I was in my right mind on Sunday. So I'm going to listen to him.
Now, I'm going to ask you about Kaggle Club because one of the most profound things I've ever learned was from my friend, Marcia, who ran something called cuddle party here in the States. And what cuddle party was, and it was a big joke, although when people thought about it for 30 seconds, they realized this is really a joke. It's actually a great idea is people get together and they cuddle because physical contact is so important for all of us as human beings. And I asked her, well, how do you like, I mean, doesn't get like, orgy, like what happened?
She goes, yeah, she goes, well, they have a line, like trust the don't fear the boner. And that's kind of funny. The other line they have is she says, is it is incumbent in each of us to establish our boundaries because people take people take as much space as you let them. And I'm like, wow, and when she said that, I think I bring this up all the time, it's so important for all of us, social media to be like, no, I'm not dealing with another moment of your BS because you can't expect that person to respect your boundaries.
Now, what is called a club? So I'm wearing a t-shirt which on the front and the back says cuddle club and it is by built up north, which is Paul Warrior, one of my coaches from CrossFit, it is clothing brand, sports clothing brand, although it crosses somewhere between Supreme, off white and like a good sports brand, I guess. So this is a training t-shirt. This is what I would train in.
And cuddle club is a concept that they've been throwing around for ages. In fact, they've just donated, I want to say two and a half grand to mind, which is the one of the UK's mental health charities from a limited edition release of long sleeved cuddle club tops. Same as one I've got on, so I bought one of those. And it's a reference to people working hard in workouts.
This is not fucking cuddle club. Like, you don't get, this wasn't a cuddle club, like really nice. This couldn't be further away kind of from your ladies, what sounds absolutely lovely, a lovely experience of people kind of giving each other support and love. This is more like, let go of the fucking balloon, no one's going to do the work for you.
Have a t-shirt in there from the same brand, which says, the magic you are looking for is in the hard work you are avoiding. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's what a lot of the stuff.
So shout out, Paul Warrior, Jordan and Tim who will be listening, who are all pushing this sort of rhetoric when it comes to training. I think it's so cool. And it reminds us, especially when it gets to training, we can become, especially if you're slightly cerebral and a lot of crossfit as our rep scheme. This workout, I was a sleep out track it on my wig band.
This is my HRV last night, all this stuff. You kind of forget that there is just a raw animalistic nature to training where you kind of need to go balls to the wall and perhaps give risk, uh, forget risk for a little bit and just focus on intensity and have faith that your physiology, that your training, that your movement, engrams, your nutrition, everything will kick in at that time. So this is, this is not critical, but it's also a funny joke because there's a bunch of boys that worked for us who went through a period where they just couldn't have sex. They kept on going back to girls and girls houses after night out and they were unsuccessful.
Um, we both think in one form or another or couldn't get it up or whatever it might have been. Uh, and then this t-shirt, I bought the t-shirt at the same time. It's very timely on like a number of levels. Well, that speaks, let's talk about the flip side of that.
That speaks to, there's a great British band. I could not adore more. I have a framed picture of their sign in my living room, St. A.
T. And I'm not sure familiar with them. Uh, they're all, they're club band. Um, and they have a song called Soft Like Me.
And it's just encouraging people to be soft. But I think a lot of times, I've, I've messages too that we need to be kind to ourselves. And we tend to think that if we are relaxing or, especially when we're younger, I have a protégé and then he kind of had this, I had to talk about it. Like whenever I get a paycheck, 10% of that money has to be spent on frivolities.
I put that aside because otherwise being self-employed, I remember the lean years. Um, not that I'm particularly wealthy now. And I would always rather wait for the train than pay for the cab. And now it's like that tie that you have to throw this money down the train so that if you're earning money, enjoy it.
So I think a lot of times we have trouble confusing, am I being kind to myself or am I being lazy? Because the mind is very good at finding excuses not to do the work. It's very good if I'm excuses. I don't go to the gym, you go tomorrow, play the video game.
And that's not what I'm talking about. But it is something that's very important for driven people to be able to relax, enjoy the fruits of your labors. And, and instead of beating yourself up all the time, give yourself a kindness. Because if you are beating yourself all the time, because you have this kind of maybe not as good self-esteem, I'm not saying that's your problem, it's not your problem, it's not your problem.
Well, maybe that person with low self-esteem could use a little kindness. And maybe that'll make his or her life a little brighter. So this is something I think is under, and that's obviously not really the opposite what they're saying. You shouldn't half-ass your workouts.
But this is something I think a lot of us could use a little bit more of. And there's also something I'm very opposed to in my work. I know it's that way over there, but here in New York and in media circles, there's this really nasty sneering cynicism towards any kind of kindness or warmth or friendliness. It's seen as eye-rolling, it's seen as corny.
And it's like, you're a hard-to-give an example. Well, like any kind of movie or kind of expressions of affection, you know, is really kind of like, oh God, please, it's like, it's regarded as ridiculous or somehow less than music, right? Or movies. If the plot isn't about pathos and about like, you know, depravity, and it's just about like a family having a fun vacation and it's very kind of heartwarming, a lot of times it's not regarded as legitimate as if they've gone through, you know, the kid having leukemia and make a wish and so on and so forth.
And I hate that attitude. I really hate it. I think kindness goes a long way. And here's another example, social media.
Right? I'm always against this idea that if something is common that doesn't mean it's the norm, just because everyone does something that's not means actually how things should be and that it's acceptable. And it's perfectly appropriate on social media to go up to strangers and just call them nasty as things possible. And it's like, congratulations, you found it more on Twitter, like this is your big accomplishment for the day.
There's no shortage of them. Whereas it's, I'm a big troll, as you know, as many as some religions might know, my way that I've always trying to push trolling to the next level. And my trolling technique for 2020, I started out is, I've been texting and writing messages to friends of mine, really calling things, being like, hey, thinking about you today, just want to know, I appreciate you as a person. And they don't know how to react and it freaks them out.
And that's just so it's win-win for me. Michael, you okay? Yeah, I tell the truth of my life is genuinely better since I've met you. Like, how do I respond?
Because we don't have that space to be kind to one another. Everyone has to have a joke or this and this and I'm like, that's, that's the one and see it. There's so much, there's so much for us to impact from this. But, you know, people that are listening, here's one thing that I realized I was doing.
I was really bad at taking compliments. Really? I would brush them off. So I had imposter syndrome so bad that someone would say something, they would go out of their way, genuinely go out of their way to say, hey, man, do you know, it is a really like the way that you pick your arbitrary thing that I do, open a kind of cook, write words, do your marketing copy, what it might have been like a physique compliment back in the day, or it might have been something to do with the business, whatever it might be.
And I would say something back like, oh, yeah, well, you know, like that's what happens when you're a total prick all the time or when you've got no life outside of the gym or whatever it might be. Like, and it was for people that are listening, think about how you respond to compliments. And if that's the sort of thing that you say, there's a couple of implications. The first one is that's because you don't believe that what the other person is telling you is true.
That's the reason you do that. And by not needing to accept it, you close the gap between your self image and what that person is saying. But the more important thing, and this is what really changed it for me, because I want you to try and find more of a connection with people. And as an only child, this was like a weird kind of bridge for me to get over.
What I realized was it's really insulting for someone to go out of their way and compliment you and for you to them. They've said something really, really kind and nice to you. And you've just thrown it back in their face like fuck you. Like, and that's why a lot of people, and this was me for ages.
I would say, how do you know what it is? I just don't really feel like people care about my work or they don't really like my work. I'm like, I wouldn't fucking care about your work. Every time someone says something nice to you just spit it back in their face.
Yeah, it's actually, but there's something else that there that a certain point people, when you're certain, uh, standing behind the scenes away from the mean, people don't know how to connect with you. Like, I have a good buddy now and he's like into bodybuilding. And he's at that point where you will notice him, he walks in a room and everyone has some reaction. It's never just nothing, right?
And men are often feel like, uh, like, I, you know, I wrote a book on North Korea, I've been to North Korea. And if it comes up at a party, uh, this happens inevitably, and like, what's your book on North Korea? They feel the need to just tell me everything they know about North Korea and like, this isn't a test and you can't win. And it's fine that you don't know where to carry North Korea.
This isn't how, but they don't, they're trying to build that bridge between their circumstances and mine, when the bridges are right there. So when guys come up and they feel they need to have this conversation and be all like, not complimentary, more like, uh, almost like a servile, you know, like, oh, blah, blah, blah. Like, he's like, I don't know how to react because either I come off like a douchebag or I come off, whatever I go, just tell them you're compensating for your tiny penis. And when you say it like that, the guy will laugh and it's like, oh, this guy's normally just like working out.
Well, this, this is a good, a good point to interject here. Why did you mention, because I haven't heard you say this and I haven't asked you this, but you tweeted one of the most complimentary things that I think anyone's ever tweeted about me after I first podcast. And he said there's only two people in my life ever that have, uh, The two people whose opinion changed the most after I talked to them was you and Joey Salads. Yeah.
What did Joey do? Because I want another. Joey Salads is an internet, uh, he was like a prankster on YouTube. He's a YouTube personality.
He's a total bro, like, you know, in every way, he came to, and he was running for Congress. I think he still is. And he came to do my show and I'm like, this guy's gonna be a total moron and I'm gonna completely clown him. And within minutes, he was like, I don't know about the Fed.
I know about the taxes. I do know about social media. I think the Republicans need an AOC. I think I could bring that to the Republican.
I'm like, oh, so he wasn't presenting himself as anything other than what he was. He was open about his limitations. And he's like, here's how to get laid. Like he's like, this is what you got to do on Instagram, blah, blah, blah.
He's giving me tips like from a friendly place. And I was like, I had him completely, completely wrong. And when you're coming from that, uh, when you have, it's the expectations game, right? So when I came in, I thought this guy's gonna be a joke.
And right away, he's not that he's being humble. It's that he's being honest. He's like, I don't know, he's six. I mean, if you're gonna try to play gotcha with me about foreign policy, a lot of these youtubers, you think that they're gonna have their head of their own ass.
I'm sure made them do. I haven't met many. It was not that way at all. Um, and ever since then, I will always sing his own your praises.
It's just like, Oh, it's really, it's just interesting how we come. And we have to have these heuristics when you're traveling in these circles about, okay, what box is this person probably coming out of? Cause you have your love island thing. It's like, all right, like I know this person's like, Oh, no, I know what I think is this person.
An idea. Yeah. Good example of you, but I think it's really taking the red pill on a lot is Logan Paul. Like that guy is operating for orders of effect down from everything that it is that he does.
I don't know whether you saw, do you see the thing about where he said he was the fastest man on the planet? No, so he went on, he went on a NBC business. Do they have like an NBC business channel? CNBC.
Yeah. Like so they're talking and this lady is asking him these questions, dude, you got to go back and watch it. It's phenomenal. So they're trying to talk to him.
I think it must have been just after the taxi or it ended or something and they're trying to say, so Logan, you've just been rated as one of the top earning youtubers last year. Your revenue was 14 million. And he's going, yeah, well, Michelle, you know, I really think I might be the fastest man on the planet. Like I really could be the fastest man on the planet.
Like, you know, I definitely the fastest YouTube by country and he's just going on and then she's laughing. So she's quite in dear to it. And it's semi good looking host lady as well. So it's kind of like, you're seeing her trying battle against his genuine charm and I'm not like a massive Logan Paul fan, but fuck me.
He and he knew what he was doing and she's trending on Twitter. Like, because everyone's going, Oh my God, Logan Paul, what fucking idiot. And then Logan, he trolled everyone. You maybe you maybe not hit Logan Paul with just that one anecdote, dude, he's he's really operating very, very cleverly.
And then he, I think a couple of days or a couple of weeks later, he tweeted the back end of his YouTube studio ad revenue for what he'd seen changing his channel from doing that and was like, how's this for finance news for you? Wow. Okay, I'm impressed. He really blew me away by that.
Yeah, proper, proper fucking good guy. I've just remembered you disagree with one of my videos. Oh, yes. So you had this video where you are advising people that we all desperately want to be we aren't normal, but we want to be normal, right?
And I think the vast majority of people do not have any independent thought whatsoever. And many of them resent the very idea of independent thought and individuality. Yeah, I agree. Okay.
Yeah, I don't think that that's wrong. I think what I get worried about, and this is speaking from personal experience is individuals that dilute down their own unique offering that they have the population of skills, life experience, background, odd left field thought. And they choose acceptability over honesty because they want to be well liked. And there's that quote from my friend, George McGill, who says, I'm astounded by how many people want to be exceptional in life, but also want to be well liked and normal by definition, being normal requires you to regress to the mean, ordinary people, ordinary people get ordinary results, extra ordinary people get extra ordinary results.
And I think a lot more people become normies through the diluting down and the the nerfing of the corners and the edges of what makes them interesting, because that's good of not being accepted. Well, that's that's something that is an existential nightmare. And I think that's something thankfully that's decreasing, because the more that there's people like Rogan and all these other types who are encouraging people to find their own path. And I think now being different in a genuine way, like, you know, like, I have this guy who I exchanged things with, he's a metal worker, he sent me this worry coin, I carry around with me, you know, like people doing cool awesome things.
I'm not saying he's a freak, but he's not normal. The more of that there is, I think, in high school, you know, back in the day, there would be it's a lot easier to isolate and marginalize that person. But now with the internet, it's very it's much much much easier for that person to create an audience and to have people drawn to him. So that pressure, which may historically have been the case because you're going to have to work for a company is really thankfully a bygone thing.
And my audience certainly is very, I'm very, very opposed to normalcy. And this idea that we should strive for normalcy. And so I think I think that's very sad. I think a lot of things also happen is when people are young and their parents are forcing them, you know, like I tell kids, I go, look, you want to be an author, right?
Go to any book and you tell your parents, you're going to be an author, they're going to yell at you and blah, blah, blah, you can't make a living and so on and so forth. and it's extremely hard. There's no question. But I say, go to any bookstore, right?
Look around. Look at all the shitty, shitty books. That could be you. You could be that mediocre author.
But when you put in those terms, right away, it's like, oh, this is feasible, right? So a lot of times we have this idea that to be kind of exceptional, you have to be Einstein or you have to be Rembrandt. It's like, no, no, no, that's shitty authors also has a weird job and is exceptional. And maybe you're not going to get to even to that level.
But I promise you by the time you're 30, 40, if you haven't tried, you will regret it for the rest of your life. And if you try and failed, you still wouldn't care. Because you shot for it and you're like, I wrote a book and didn't get published, but you know, I learned a lot from the experience. Everyone who's a kind of, this is such a cliche, but people haven't gotten through their head.
There's the scene and the unseen. Every single person who's accomplished has an entire storage case full of failures. But you're not going to see that because that's not which is the public consciousness. So it's like, yeah, I promise you, I've got three books on my computer that never got published.
That's okay. So you need to understand that. It's not a failure. It's just a learning process.
And the other thing is you keep knocking on doors eventually once you're open, it becomes a math. It's not even a question of your talent. It's just a question of your stamina. Yeah, there's a quote from the Val Ravicant that I've been throwing around a lot recently.
And it is, it's far easier to achieve your material desires than it is to renounce them. And I really love that. And I spent a lot of time thinking about it. And it kind of touches on what you're talking about there that some people may choose either through fear of failure, or through mindfulness practice and internal work to transcend their desires and say, I don't need the car.
I don't need to be the author. I am enough as I am. And it leads people, going back to what we said before, it leads people into this kind of apathetic, no requirement to push myself. Like, they would be in cuddle club.
They would be that is cuddle club. But the alternative thing to realize, and this is the same, this is my excuse for why I train on a morning. One of your thoughts about this, if you go out and you do the thing and tick the box, you can still transcend it. You can still transcend needing the fast car, but it is significantly easier to transcend needing the fast car from the driver's seat.
And yes, you also get the benefit that by pushing yourself forward by that inevitably, I'm not one for objective measures of success or quantifiable metrics of happiness and all that sort of stuff. Like I'm not, but you can't deny the fact that those things are society saying to you, you are producing something of value, you are producing something which is so worthwhile that we are choosing to pay you for it. I fucking give them any charity, like you can give the, you know, just give the car away, give the free clothes away, do whatever you want. But there's no reason not to expect more or the best that you can from yourself.
And it comes back to what you said earlier on about learning when you're being strict enough to continue disciplining yourself that you can achieve more and soft enough to give yourself a break to allow you to not go so far that you that you then snap. And the reason I train, the reason I train on a morning is I think there is an inherent satisfaction in knowing that you have completed a training session and it resets every night when you go to sleep. So if you spend your entire day knowing that you've got to train at 8pm at night, that's an entire day with an open loop of anxiety saying, I fucking got to trust, I've got to train. So I'm going to try and train at 8pm.
Whereas if you finish your training session by 12 mid-day, you're like, ah, rest of the day's mine. I've already got my training out of the way because it is a groundhog day that resets every single midnight or whenever you go to sleep and you get to take a box. I am not a good person to talk to about this because I am psychotically disciplined and I haven't for a long time. So I am so strict with my schedule.
I train at night because I don't like it when the gym is busy. So my gym is 24 hours. I would go at 11 midnight. I go to bed at 2 in the morning every night.
I wake up at 11 in the morning. So if I woke up and went to the gym, I would I would resent it. For me, it's relaxing to end on that. And it's also like I've been I went too often.
So my buddy's like five days a week is funny. So I had to force myself to take an extra rest day, because I was doing six. So but I don't know that I'm wired that way. I think if I got my work done in the morning, then I would feel antsy that I have 14 hours to fill.
So I don't know, I think it also depends on how much of output we have and how much input we have, right? Because I've got like three jobs and so on and so forth. So if I only had the working out, that might be a situation where I would be like, I want to do it in the first thing, because then I know if I'm not unemployed, I'm not going to worry about hitting the phone and not getting the callbacks because I know I did something for the day. But since I will have enough on my plate, whether I go to the gym or not regardless, that will take care of that part of my brain, which otherwise would be screaming, it's going to be wasted today.
It's going to be wasted today. You're watching too much stupid videos on YouTube. Yeah, I wonder whether that's perhaps a little bit of me getting easy wins it earlier on, because I tend to work like that. My morning routine is like 10 wins by 9am or 10am.
Like a ton of things. So I've gone for a walk, journaled, done breath work, meditated, done my spinal rehab, read, cooked and prepped my food for the day, and maybe done something else like by 930 or 10am. And that's just me, perhaps still trying to build up that level of self-confidence and kind of belief in my own worth to get the day going real hard, you know, like kind of set off in a high gear type thing and get moving. So yeah, it's an interesting one, man.
How have you been finding training from home and stuff like that? So I got to tell you, I do not take it for granted having like a decent audience of quality people. I think I'm very blessed to have this. And I was going absolutely crazy, not having access to Jim, because this is very important for me from mental health.
And I was on a cut and I was reaching, I was at my peak a few years ago, I fell away because my trainer vanished. And I was getting back to that point. And having that just abruptly stopped, it was really freaking me out really badly. I mean, I went to the park here at 10 o'clock, you know, but you can only do so many pull-ups and dips in that park, whatever.
And I had a fan who she's in Florida, Phoebe, God bless you. God bless you so much. She goes, here's the key is in the lockbox. I sat in my house.
Here's the code. I called her while I was in her house. I did her dishes. I wanted her plants.