179: I Never Thought of It That Way with Mónica Guzmán and Lulu

If you're anything like me, navigating conflict comes pretty easily to you. You always know what to say to make your point in a tone that's firm but still inviting, right? You listen for the purpose of understanding the other person and don't just use the time while the other person is speaking to form your own rebuttal? You never get overwhelmed, and maintain your own sense of boundaries even when the discussion argument gets really heated?   (Yeah, me either, really...)   A few months ago I put out a request for folks who disagree with me on a social issue to let me know if they would be willing to come and discuss the topic with me on a podcast episode.   I had just read Mónica Guzmán's book I Never Thought Of It That way, which concludes with an invitation to practice the tools she teaches about navigating conflict more effectively, and I thought: "Well, let's do it!" Mónica agreed to moderate a conversation and I put out a call for folks to participate...   ...and let's just say that the silence was deafening.   (And I was kind of disappointed. I mean, you all are a pretty opinionated bunch, right? And I KNOW some of you disagree with me about some things...)   The one person who responded was parent Lulu, who wrote: "I do admit that I disagree with your recent focus on White privilege and how it seems to make its way into almost every episode. Yes, it’s something to be aware of, but I don’t want that awareness to drive many of my and my kids' decisions and conversations."   Of course my first thought was "Well, you're wrong," but when I responded: "Tell me more!" she added that she sees topics like school, behavior, nutrition, empathy, and other factors as all more important than discussing White privilege on a regular basis.   "Super," I said. "Let's talk."   So we each prepared for the conversation using a framework described in Mónica's book, and as we were talking Mónica pointed out what we were doing well (and shockingly few things we weren't doing well) to build our mutual understanding.   I think it's safe to say we both got more out of it than we had anticipated. We recorded it several weeks ago and I also recorded a postscript with some thoughts on the conversation as well as how we might apply the ideas we used in less structured situations we find ourselves in on a regular basis.   This episode will help you to understand people who are important to you even when they have ideas that are very different from yours, and find common ground so you can work, play, and be together.   Mónica Guzmán's book I Never Thought Of It That Way (Affiliate link)   Jump to highlights: 01:01 Introducing today’s guest 02:39 This episode demonstrates using Monica's tools for productive conversations with differing views. 03:38 The 'conversation dial, EPACT, helps assess and enhance productive discussions by considering factors like full communication, equal platform footing, focused attention, contained conversations, and timing. 08:36 The conversation between Jen and Lulu is set to begin with a commitment to trust and exploring ideas in an open environment. They set the stage by discussing their objectives.  13:51 They engage in an eight-minute back-and-forth discussion, where they reflect on what they've learned about each other's perspectives. 36:43 They delve into the complexities of their roles in addressing interconnected issues like White supremacy, ecology, and consumerism, recognizing areas of uncertainty while aiming for a deeper understanding of each other's viewpoints. 44:09 Monica praised Jen and Lulu for their open and respectful dialogue, noting their effective use of clarifying questions and their willingness to discuss sensitive issues.  46:30 Lulu and Jen expressed their appreciation for the enlightening conversation, noting the importance of respect and curiosity when discussing challenging topics.  52:42 Wrapping up the discussion