Thanks for tuning in to Turbo Sports Radio. In this edition, John I host another episode of his exclusive Warhammer 40K podcast, Turbo Tabletop, yet ready to embark on the journey through the immersive universe of Warhammer, where Mike Yami's Clash and Epic Battles unfold. Whether it's a season veteran or a fresh recruit, Turbo Tabletop is your go-to source for tactical insights, army building strategies and the latest news from the front lines. Let's play the theme tune.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Turbo Tabletop. This time we're going to be recapping on hot takes or mild takes on the data slate. It's been a few weeks now and we'll see how close we were. This week I'm joined by Isaac.
Hello. Oli. Smithy. Hello.
And a new guest. Alfie. Hello. New member.
We'll get into that later. We'll roll the theme tune. No, just over I think three weeks, because there was the they released the date slate with the new points. The Dark Angels, Conex came out in the assault box and then the Dark Angels groups were losing their minds because some people couldn't quite contemplate that the index still applied.
It's just before or just after the Deathing of the Assault Box dropped. The date slate kind of mixed things up in a nice way. The balancing has come overall, the balance of the game is really good. Some of the key things I said, Tifus was going to go up in points weirdly.
He came down. He went from 100 points down to 80 and people are still running him solo, even now me, much to my self-loathing. Flagellates every evening. It's like I said, Steve killed him with minimal effort.
Good. Great to mark and phone back in the box. So I was really surprised with that. And the re-wording or the clarification on Mortarion and Trajan and whoever else has the economic modifier is to actually be all encompassing and even affect weapons and AP and everything like that.
Or AP into the enemy, not AP into you because it doesn't affect saving throws. But yeah, Mortarion is back for most people. There's a couple of lists now. It's like Morti, free play burst callers, or not Mortarion and just a million other characters.
But either way, it's good fun. What about your armies? Yeah, Orcs got a pretty decent shake up. Square-Cob boys went up against 30 points, which just pushes them to the slightly too expensive to be efficient.
Because they're on big bases. They've always gotten shot a lot. But now it's an eighth of your army getting shot a lot rather than like you could get down and just got a great chin. That'd be quite happy.
So what have they gone up to? They've gone from 220 up to 250. The block of six. And then you're attaching to another smash as quick.
You give him the head, what was the kill chopper? Certainly it's like a 400 point unit. Yeah. It's just not.
It's just too much. But what came down, we got back, we got battle weapons back. So they came down from, they came down to 160. Sticker hard days on the bus, a T-12, 16 wound, three up six up.
Body. Yeah, a transport capacity of 22. Jesus. It's all 1 AP.
It can fight. Yeah. Something other than that's night, you can use unbridled carnage on it. So you can get exploding fives on your defrober.
So I think it's got like an award, like six, minus one for two damage attacks. That's pretty not bad. Yeah. It's going to be five and sixes.
And it's switched some of the, some list and now we're going to block 20 boys with a war boss and either a knob on wild not with a wall of honor or a pain boy depending on what you need. It's just the big, here's 50 OC coming take me off the point. Played on Thursday, my back lob, took a thousand points of tail shoot at the both hand shooting. Yeah.
Yeah. The same one lost two walk boys. That is 17 points just to, which is bad. Yeah.
The both hand they just couldn't get through it. It was a very hot run on my back and break all run on my phone as well. But that's still a ridiculous statistic. Yeah.
That's, yeah. But you're, you've switched. Yeah. The other thing that they decided to do, which wasn't on my heart take list was I bought two thousand points of course.
I was at the point four of the audience like, yeah, I've been reading up. They play a very different game to walks. They basically on the set on the primary and do some assaults making them take them off the objectives. They're a cheap army to get into.
Obviously, as everyone now knows the changes that they have in the day is they have shot them up in the rankings, getting the film, depending on his deadwinds. A few important points reductions has tipped them probably just to be to be able to feel just slightly too many bodies. And it's back to that sort of, then, how this sat check where maybe you just can't get one. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm hoping to get, I've been building prime, hoping to get them on the table for Oxford D.D. I think it'll be a much less threshold there.
I'm not, I'm not going to do well at Oxford D.D. I'm going to see what D.D. is like, you'll be a much less threshold A than trying to take two thousand points of walks two days. Yeah.
I mean, your deployment is what? Eight units or something like that. How many do you have? Two wardens, two prosecutors, two guardians, five of the R.S.
and a cowardice, seven units. Easy. Yeah. Yeah.
And it's also like, these ones are going to walk up at the front and stand on objective and these ones are going to stand slightly behind them. So if you charge me on the objective, they're going to charge you. Yeah. And we're going to match you up.
Like, I'm not, I'm not doing techy with it. We're not doing tricks. We're learning the basics of customs. Then we can start looking at 18, but it's already roll fours.
That's the basic customs. Roll twos. Roll fours. Things die.
You don't die. That's it. Yeah. That's pretty much it.
So yeah, that was the basic changes for me. Nice. So demons. Yeah.
So I pivoted before the couple of week, well, maybe even just a week, actually, we can have a bit of the mystic tournament. They got all their greater demons. I think the unnamed ones at least got point drops. And even a good number of the lesser demons did, which was good because the list, this might be in a very much what I got list.
It didn't mean I could then chuck a, the endless gift, I think it is enhancement on the great unclean one, which gives him the five up to him, I mean, four up to him, I mean, he's in your area of chaos, the shadow of chaos. But yeah, that was made them a lot more playable because it's something that he could then sit on a objective, essentially. You spend a command point to not only sticky it, but also count about objective in the shadow of chaos. And he just sits there not buying and just doing doing, doing deploy, claiming whatever he needs to do, what's your other stuff can sort of run off and do what they do, which we know good things.
And it turns out similar thing to customs is not buy very easily, perform secondaries or primaries. And then you just have Shalaxi and Melacore dipping in and out. Which I did find, I'm first game, gets a towel, showed their vulnerability, second game against customs, they was very much a okay, we both got involved, we've got their four ups against them, so I might be able to check out that really showed up, how tough they are. Also, I think we both had low unit counts.
So that made it more interesting, basically just off any hill around the board, but otherwise other armies didn't get hit or buffed, particularly much, I think there's more points to the other stuff I run, like do you see the cults, nothing really happened with them, just a couple of points adjustments here and there. Chaos Knight, similarly, a couple of points adjustments, and then Stasal's Space Marines, they point to adjustments again. Yeah, yeah, the space all got real big one in Wolfin. Yeah, so they got a buff to their hammers as well.
So now actually are worth taking over the course, they're not the same weapon with one less attack. Apparently they got the shield which extra wound and an involved, I think, I can't remember which blade or off shield they got because I just ignored it off the bat because there was no point. But yeah, now that the hammers are actually worth considering again. They're like 16 points of body on this, they're cheap, they're gone dirt cheap.
And still relatively tough, in some T5, a couple of wings each, they're not the outer murder machines that they were previously. But yeah, they're cheap sort of an absolute unit. Hopefully there's only things that come as well because I think one of the things that frustrates everybody's when GW go, there's a unit is underperforming or overperforming. How do we fix this?
Points. Yeah, it's not always a great solution when you're playing space rings that look like a horde army suddenly. This is it. It's not as become unusable because and simply with like the the Grey Knights are their grandmaster in baby character got a weapon skill adjustment and I think a damage or AP adjustment to them.
Yeah, it was one point better on two things. Yeah, that was usable. Yeah, though. And now we're running like five.
I'll be backtracking it just points there. Well, I think that's worth it because I think it was only like two damage to three damage which actually sounds a lot but when you've got it kind of takes if you've got two damage and then you've got armies that maybe reduce damage by terminator. Exactly. That suddenly is what's the point in it might as well take one damage and live in more attacks.
But that three damage then means if you're reducing or halving damage, it's just not two damage and it's still a lot more usable as a weapon. The demons did the change of is it for every non-battle line? You have to take a battle line. So that's with the if you take them with like careful rings for example.
Oh, okay. Which I don't know. Yeah, which I get although it doesn't really affect nerglings too much. They just went up in points a little bit and that's the unit everyone was taking.
And then about all I know is more than enough to cast base marines and cast knights and deathguard than it was really enough to. Yeah, I think it was more that sort of push to like, okay, you want to run demons is a lot more incentive to run just a demon list because our big units are now easier to fit in with an enhancement. You're essentially getting that for the same point as you were previously adjusted unit and nerglings are still daft for points. It's insane.
Yeah. Yeah, no overall pretty right out of it. Alfred, any I know you're an all player like Oliver. Yeah, so I know like some rise most but I'm pretty sure that only the arguments and up and points were knobsed and squirke boys wasn't it?
And then there was like a couple here and there that were like brought down. So I remember Killikand specifically is kind of hoping I could play them but yeah. Killikand came down but they're still not as efficient as deathcfters. All of the buggies came down but they're still not as efficient as deathcfters.
Kill rigs and hunter eggs came down and they're just not as good as battle wagons. And you're also probably not running deck corters. So yeah, it's good but with the buggy they need any day to shoot data sheet rework. We spoke about it the other week the shotgun trackster has got a precision weapon and it can advance and teleport but its precision weapon doesn't have a salt so it can advance and teleport into a really cool position and then wait a turn.
Kind of different support. Like there was I think that Pyra, one of the orc players ran to the rock truck squir buggies which are like standard buggy they only have anything too fancy they have an aura of minus one to hit like six and chorro but they were just like these are just my fast action use so where some forearms don't always have to do more bikes they tried to bug ease. Yeah they were fast and they did actions. That's cool.
Yeah. I thought the aura was the boondack inside the wagon. They were the buggies with the minus one to hit aura you ran to them. The orc co-lackers this year right?
So your co-laces matches the next year. Oh okay. It's got those in the orc so. Oh yeah.
We've seen the battle boxes. They've kind of weirdly ordered things with like Dark Angels release, Dark Angels release, hinting at a big towel release. They kind of made people think the orc one's going to move but then they're doing the orc one and the custods one and then Taos seems to be after all of that which is solid chalk models. Of the whole release codecs is early as part of battle boxes as well.
So you've got to be a bit of a move early but it's not usually on competitive play for maybe another six or seven weeks because of the waiting for the next order then the two week pre-order window and the one week pre-order and the two week delivery and all that stuff. Yeah and then there's the two week buffer that tournaments have. Yeah so it's put things in a really weird spot now the way that GW release and things. It's cool from like a models of my codecs like let's start thinking but yeah it's a bit confusing.
I'm quite happy because it means I've got at least a payday which we happen to pick up. Yeah that's just happy. They didn't say what was going to be that redacted codecs at the end of the year right? No no no no no.
I mean I think the speculation is things like if you want to go really extreme Dark Mechanical is one of the things people are. I don't reckon we'll see a new fraction this early. And for children potentially because that would fit in if the Chaos Codex doesn't include Lucius the eternal we're going to get an ever-stilting codec pretty soon. Well that's what happened with the Chaos Codex last edition right?
The Chaos Codex came out and it's like no release. Well release is coming. Yeah we'll leave a couple of online data sheets for Combat for an edition and not just the dying embers of an edition. Yeah I still think it'll be much later but do you reckon it could be Chaos this year there?
The Chaos Isis year it's end of spring. Oh okay yeah wait so all those those town Chaos Dark Angels all spring. How long did they think spring is? Well they started in January with the Dark Angels release so but it was speculation that that was because people sorry that people had leaked things early so they made it forward or something like that's just the room and they look at the miller probably is.
Well I was getting a guess if you go to my actual codex release that is technical spring isn't it? Yeah just the early release box there which never really count for anything like that. Yeah I'm going to slice the dark one actually. Yeah yeah yeah that's the one with all of the misprints.
Yeah they came out with like limited editions but it's all the wrong. But I think overall well hold on before we get back there every day is like done. It's reset. Yeah just cancel with not discussed.
Yeah so Chaos. I'm going to try and sound pragmatic and not salty. I think being objective is the best way around it. I think before the last so they're not the one that's just come to the one before Chaos were in a a pretty decent place.
They had like a 47 to 50% win rate. They weren't storming tournament left right and center. They were in a good place. The problem was you had the Abaddon Terminator kind of break and Games Rock Shop is part of the and the Forge Fiends and Blitterators and it's part of their internal balance.
They were like I would have to go up and point. Forge Fiends have to go up and point. Blittery has to go up and point. Let's encourage people to take other stuff.
Let's bring Lords down, Chosen down, Warp Talon's down and they were actually good units that were perfectly costed at that time. So they brought them all down and lo and behold when you've got really good units that are now under-costed, people start to take them. So everyone starts running, I started running Chaos Lords, started running Chosen, started running the market on the Vita to get to the 1CP re-roll hits and win strap. So one of the Chaos Lords you got one for free and you pay for once if you're running two Lords.
So there was a way to make it really bloody efficient. The Curse of Cultists really goes top five units in the game, pre-date slate. Yeah literally the least but very very efficient for their points. Two efficient.
I said this like that. I last talked to a fish and Chaos had access to some good stratagems but also stratagems that other code accesses do have access to. They then went and got the game structure mistake here was going, these units are too efficient for their points and there are good stratagems to support them and rather than going let's tweak one and see how it goes. They went right, the Curse of Cultists are too efficient because some people are running this market Gaussian divided before hits and win re-rolls.
So we're going to nerf that strap so it's only usable on market Gaussian divided units whereas before you could use it for anybody but it was worse. You can't even roll hits and wins of one. So now only under-vided can use it. We're then going to increase the amount of points that the Curse of Cultists costs and increase the amount of points the Dark Kong unecosts.
Then we're going to nerf the OC of a Curse of Cultists down to one from two and we're going to make them resurrect only in your command phase and not your opponent's command phase. Some people running them as nurgles so we'd nerf the mark of nurgles strats and that doesn't quite work and suddenly you've got a unit that was too efficient for its points that is now over-costed, not efficient and no one is running because it's not really usable in the matter anymore. They then chosen web upping points. I don't know if they went up beyond where they were before they went down the same with Lords.
There was some good changes like a completely agree it was stupid that you could run kerosenevide units in nurgle rhinos or slinesh units in nurgle rhinos. It doesn't work from a thematic point and that isn't. I think the game should be balanced around thematic player. You should encourage to take cool units from your army.
Not how do we break this or tweak it so it's weird an army's not look like the army should look anymore. So there's some changes that I really agreed with but I think that the problem they did and this is back I think the same issue they were deathwing at the end of 9th edition. They made space marines far too efficient for what they were by giving them all free war gear. So Dark Ages armies suddenly have access to 10 more terminated bodies with storm shields and thumbnails and rather than going we need to tweak a little bit.
They just went right let's take away the transhuman rather than turning it to a minus one to wound or a mini transhuman that other armies have access to. I think chaos have come off worse than the makes like than any other faction. They dropped from a 53% win rate to 42. Some of that is that all the best players have left but at the same time armies only sit at the top of the meta because they're good and the best players are playing them.
It doesn't work in a vacuum that if you're a bad player and you take a good army you suddenly go up to 70% win rate. It's you're more likely to win games because the army is good but the best players are the ones propping them up. Pre-dates like chaos have come up in a tournament for three weeks and then they've got the nerf and now they've won one or two but the matter is shifted to the Abaddon predator blob and again the problem is that the more problem I think is that you should be running Abaddon with five or ten terminators because thematically that is cool. That's what you want.
You want ten terminates in Abaddon being a murder brick and a mid-board and they need to be killable not likely wearing nights where they're in killable but they should still be putting a lot of damage out and you've now got to the point where like Taefos people are going well you can't run Abaddon on in ten terminates or five terminates it's rubbish it's not efficient so what we really under nerfed all the strats so you wreck the entire balance of the chaos codex because the good strats don't prop up the rubbish units anymore people are going up Abaddon's gonna sit by himself behind a run and allow hits re-rolls for predators and forge fiend not fortunes people are really kind of running out. He does it but it's not. But let's kind of move it's hell-brutes and predators are the big one. I think they've only won I want to say one or two tournaments since and it's other than that like they're not appearing in top 10.
So they've taken a big nose dive and people will figure out eventually I think they will. Going down to a 42 I mean that is slightly lower than the 45 55 but still I mean 42 is not too bad and it's a very knee-jerk kind of reaction like you say everyone all the good players drop. Yeah people will come back to them. Is that all they?
Probably about that in patience to sort of like right I'm not going to sit and play a couple of different lists it's like I need the winning list for my next tournament I'm just gonna hit that. So I think it will probably come up I don't think it's gonna break 50 again I think it definitely drops to a mid-tier faction. It's kind of like a lot of these things I think as well you've got chaos you've got like walks as well you can see the bits that are waiting for these different attachments in the Codex and that's it it's just the super close around. Well I think when the Codex drops hopefully it'll be in a better place.
Whether only Dark Angels are in a lot of places because they've got a Codex after a game's late which is always a bad place because the rest of them are adjusted and you've got something that was written a year ago probably but now doesn't know where it fits and you'll know this playing blood angels and space walls trying to learn to have some of it. You're being balanced not just around your index but around the marine index as a whole. Yeah and the big I talked about this a bit off my committee the big change I'd love to see to the divergent marine chapters is only being allowed to take your supplement detachments and not being able to run all of the marine detachments maybe keep gladius but yeah there's kind of a direct disadvantage but it's really frustrating from a person that likes to Dark Angels for the lore and the Dark Angels to the units to see a Dark Angels win rate at like 70% because normal marine players have bought Azrael and they're running him in the Iron Storm Detachment because he's the cheapest way to get one CP and the danger is that games workshop don't look at that and go oh yes Iron Storm is broken with Azrael they go Dark Angels are doing really well so we're not going to look at the three attachments they've got or the units they've got because they do need some love the inner circle companions not great for competitive play definitely knights no longer good for competitive play and they do need I think that the Windex week yeah yeah I think with the Iron Storm things specifically people will be Iron Storm what storm ring they eat it because the tempers are also yeah this is the thing there's a few blood angles right yeah Storm Raven this running around where their packs are by their computer packs there's like it's clearly it's that Storm Raven's being able to carry with emters and then shoot up your army on the board and they're killing us as well yeah because of the um the once you think you ignore more players you take guys around get your three CP your Storm Raven peaches around the corner and deletes a tank the Storm Raven's a peek around the corner the Storm Raven's into your deployment zone delete everything. Here's the redemptor you can kill one of us.
But I think that you know we we don't and we're like my post-ins on Dark Angels competitive grip everyone's out of a right domain. This is a competitive group. You've come to the wrong place you're an idiot I hope this doesn't happen and I'm thinking we don't get into competitive war hammer because we like winning because there are other things we can do in life to to win at you get into war hammer because well so you get into war hammer because you like the game system and you select hopefully you select an army or logic is you select an army because you like the army you don't pick Dark Angels because you want to run redempt the Dreadn'ts and Storm Ravens and Tech Marine you're in Dark Angels because you want cool bone terminators you want speedy boys on bikes you don't play you know Orcs because you want to sit and run some really weird I've got all of you it's a course but okay you don't get into the Blood Angels plates on Storm you want to play Death Company you want to play Sangri Guard I think it's probably a double edged sword isn't it for having these the index is out quick and actually not doing too bad but then as soon as the codex comes out like the Dark Angels you're kind of then sat waiting it's like okay we really need the Blood Angels the space walls the templars want to come out to be able to then say okay you've got your three detachments and space walls and templars and so you keep using the space Marine codex but Dark Angels are going to just it's it's just another place really odd that I mean the lion drops from 380 points to 350 two weeks before the new codex came out and he was overgusted because he's unusable he's a monster so difficult to maneuver when Dark Angels and I think the Dev Wincing because it's got needs to be a universal rule because there's too many filman pains that are specifically linked to mortal wounds yeah I was going to do change that to the watchers they haven't yet um we haven't had a um codex FAQ or anything yet uh apparently they can come anywhere from day of release to two weeks after day one patches of the good game so I'm hoping that they could turn around and say actually this is how watchers in the dark were meant to function you are going to get your four-wheel pain against Dev Wincing because otherwise you definitely know it's definitely definitely terminators the lion as rail they don't have they've got a watcher in the dark you can use our tank shock or a grid and that's not that's just not what they're meant for and I charge a big splash into your definitely nice and big at three of them so it's it's really weird and I'm holding out in a full-on hub that there is an index as a cadence change just to sync with us and that's a little I would say with the ability to lay P and weapons skill and damage adjustments to weapons they can do in it seems to be a positive direction yeah but the the post challenge that is to carry and hold you attachments yeah yeah so they realize the chari is actually the rope in the neck just doesn't do anything doesn't work yeah so like actually isn't he won it's really good yeah really fun apparently it makes uh chari feel like chari they fixed the with the current the name of the unit archons convey in incubi is it yes yeah and like fluff wise incubi are mercenaries archons higher to be their bodyguards so they fix up like that so I think this this day it's like shows the real direction they want to go in of we are willing to make sweep it like it was a big document rather yeah but um Steve was saying uh the other day on the odd cast that comes out before this I don't know how you got to just listen to yeah um if i've edited that first um but he was saying that it's side of a team England captain or at least a member for team England is part of the balanced team games workshop now um so there is someone that plays very competitive games that clearly knows how to work this and is doing it for the better because previous editions the the balanced state of states and that that came out might be knee jerky or a bit yeah not quite where not quite where they need to be whereas now they're more or less what chaos aside but I think that I definitely think council needed to re-write and I think that if a cursicalist had been just res in york and end phase and we're gonna increase the point so I said fair enough that's a reasonable starting point one or the other yeah I think victims of similar I mean space marines they're in at the right place but like I suppose hell doubt as well I'm sorry they've just got so many units now it's like how do you know you tweak one and suddenly five others become well kodex space marines are i think the lowest win rate about 40 percent at the moment yeah it's just it's your divergent chapters with your cp farms like yazrael for the propping up space marines but you can't make huge changes to space marines because otherwise your space force get bonkers or your black tan plus get bonkers that's it yeah yeah but i think i would just really love to see because it's weird from a law point of like these carbonite grey swords on the death of circle commanders there are 10 000 general blades that have been carried since the great curicade may have probably been about that anyone damaged it yeah no invulnerable say for spite of the fact they're all wearing iron halos there's a standard you can build the unit carrying a standard but there are no rules for the standard deathwing knights monster hunters they're actually demon prince slayers that's what their role is in the law and their swords are damaged one the idea that you've worked up through the rights of the dark angels you've had your master craft of power swords a member of the blade guard they can you slightly worse weapons you just finished your hundred years in the blade guard veterans and the lion knights you a deathwing knight and he says yeah we need that master craft of power sword back yeah because we've got a power weapon lying around some but the more they're huge they're bigger than master craft of power swords and they get plus one strength but they're still damage one and i think ap two damage tests that's a master craft of power sword that's what they should have the mace's strength six damage to ap one why why are they not back where they used to be which was strength third damage three ap one i mean that's my tradition at least in the index they were damaged three still so they were didn't go through very often but at least when they went through to tell me they're kind of a consensus right it's a slower weapon you're not pacing on like you're just beating somebody to death inside their power on that don't you bounce on someone's head off the inside of a sairmite helmet still always brutal well it's the box artwork to the deathwing assault it's one of my favorite box artworks and please be the better hub that castor nays gonna get thunder hammers because there's loads of them carrying thunder hammers on the box art but then GW also don't care about stuff like that but definitely not it's a bludgeoning these black legion termates to death of the mace's i'm thinking ap one damage to you're not killing a termator like strong breeze stands a better chance but i just i'm hoping and the lion my beautiful boy that sweep sword going down to damage to damage one from damage if you're fighting a black camp last sword brethren unit with a field of pain you are not killing five five sword brethren whereas the point of those sweep profiles is so your big boys do not get bogged down by chaff and absolutely the lion should be killing five space marines if anyone is gonna kill multi wound models it is the lion because he's not a character here his buffs aren't great no it's like plus one to hit plus one to wound he's neither here nor there the cp one's really fun you try and use a strap take a battle shock test if you fail your strap doesn't go off you've still spent the cp and i guess that's awesome that's awesome yeah really situational but really cool and then the other one the fall of filno pain aura was brilliant at the start of the edition when you could carry your terminators up with them it seems weird though i found this with bellicor like you look at his snaps anything man this is a strong unit and but his buffs i mean he's there for his buffs really like they're not being able to shoot pick her outside of his awesome weirdly as well when you get close up the buff or debuff then which you pick the battle shock came up a lot and it's one of the nat she's stopped a few things happening um or made a few things happen um but then i think a lot of it's the prevalence of four up in the moment like his pierce attack is one four eight but he bounces off my stuff yeah 50 50 yeah and then it's sweet is 14 attacks but similarly i think he's only damage one and you know you've gone up against imperial gazmin but i'm just throwing bellicor as imperial guards you've done something wrong and it's kind of like i don't know it needs it needs that probably like my second point of damage or just considerably more attacks it's a weird i think they were just turned off in nine position at how kitty everything was yeah because you're abadons and you can turn and yeah it was an alpha strike yeah um and i think especially a lot of the supreme commanders like bellicor and lion they've done them again the gazgull the best bit of gazgull is mccaree's aura yes lethal hits within 12 inches during the war gazgull is fine he's like t6 two up this is how this way is the form potentially it's a readjustment of your thinking of how you're supposed to use the units but then they do at least then at least then what he's saying like that of course has that solid aura to pick from and abadons got some really good moves and then you just need not to back him up to more of the points of action yeah it's the identity thing of bellicor sits with your army providing these like the uh can't be shot yeah be uh or something but then you have angron who is a point and delete unit if you need something to die angron will get it and fucking lat yeah whatever trying to use but that's that's his solid identity you can't have every like center piece model no b no yeah but equally the lion should have been the imperials angron yeah the lion should be able to do so gazgull should be able to go to wagon yeah it's just and i think it's uh when story meets board as well so you get a dark angel's codex that the lion's lore is when he loses his temper shadows spread out from his body in the room goes dark if he looks at you you feel immense fear like you're trapped in a spectral forest and he's just vanishes for days on end and he's gone across the galaxy on a little walk through the warp chin three demon princes then shown up on three successor chapters battlefields turns the tide returns to the rock because if he's just been away for an hour and like boys and yeah on the battlefield the emperor's shield which there was all the jokes about the ninth because it was crap it was rubbish and now in start ten edition minus one to wound and three have been vulnerable by t9 model absolutely incredible great that's the emperor's shield six of when are you safe a mortal wound it's a nice little added bonus but it's not really doing much because he's got fights first so he's killing anything he fights lost my response wound oh so the emperor's shield now is just if you do a if the lion ross is safe you take one mortal wound again the law and run hits the shield and grind strong off his feet he kills and run by putting down per shield through his skull and losing the minus one to wounds losing the dev wounds protection already did you have the start edition losing the point of damage and still being sat at 350 points he's more point of the water in he's more point to the can and if the can is infinitely i think they're probably under costed but when you've got your who are a little under costed and aren't really good they aren't good yeah yeah i the uh mr. tonlin i my hubris into cotann i was like yeah they're tough he's left this one right out of the over i can get a scot of flash it's kind of squatting knobs into it that's got a mega knobs into it this thing's going down nope i got it's like three wounds like i'll switch it three minutes like i'm trying to suck the life out of my nose i forget about that every time i play necrons okay you're right i was dropped a trial yeah and he gets we animate three game wounds yeah so i took him down to three and then he's back up at like 11 or something so i and then some of my stuff that i use because it's necron sense i was like okay well he's only at 11 so he's down to he's down to four now always back up to nine just like just oh oh i'm sitting up i've done a night edition yeah did you see that crumpin video he was talking about the matter uh his suggestion for the cotann is they can't benefit from um the yeah so they're what saves they're not exactly what's the law point as well yeah um it's just about use to they used to be something where they wouldn't get those sort of bonuses or they wouldn't get something they didn't have like the network even just limiting to one cotann per two thousand points there are some lists now running five so they're running like boy dragon guitar boy dragon uh nogringer and three of the like the other newest cotanneric guitar wait so they're not unique character two of them are three of them are so yeah the boy dragon might run at the sea but the sea was asked so no one might be the tower so yeah what's the generic one then it's just like transcendent eternal eternal like the guy rising isn't it with smart oh is it the test right yeah uh oh it's like a yeah he has like the piano pain and half damage he just doesn't have all the bullshit in wood i mean still that's still bullshit exactly he's still just deep straighten three inches away on a fucking on an objective and like all right yeah fight him i guess we can even leave him for a turn and go like i've forgotten he's over there but i'm sure he's fine yeah yeah i'm but yeah it's whether or not again something like that where they need to do like issue in account of the form actions or you know like it can't benefit like he's saying from the dynasty yeah this is because it is a enslaved it's a slave it's not a it's like an object thing like right so i like my knife but i'm just having too much stuff yeah like cotanner just got too much stuff yeah just take one thing away from them and it's yeah i guess it's like we're saying with things like the line and all i like yeah i mean the line's a primer he should be amazing simply the cotanner shards of gods yeah they should but then it's like these are so hard to balance yeah yeah but i you know you read your book and it's like i think the isht of an dropsite massacre there's a line about you know every time a primer swims you sort hundreds of marines die every time i'm going to see sort thousands of marines die that's the hold of or it was all digital just sanguine it's like you got Vulcan he stood amongst all the salamanders someone drops a new condom like the salamanders die Vulcan just strolls out before he's a rhino like the way and stuff battering yeah how inconvenient yeah but i suppose you could argue with the lion there's the sort of the forest novel it's a great bit in her book yeah great book he's not read it um but as he he's first arrived he's like 50 cows cultists and he swims through them basically no weapons he's ripping them away from the limb and he's like oh shit like he's not even like the lion where he says like i could have done this for hours but i'm a little tired like i'm slight and he fights the he kills like 10 cow species bare hands gets he sword kills two of literators and he uppercuts that chaos lord catches in mid-air snaps him over his knee and then he's like why am i weak what have you done to me a castle of the twitching on the ground is going what do you mean weak just hold oh my god i'm super sorry it's tough like i mean with that one's well like the silent king but there's bits and more where's like he's there at like a siege of some planet and they're up against the fortress wars and he just points and clicks at them in the wars war you know there's like a warhound titan or something can you just sort of like waves this up at the thing and by sex you can't write that in the town no it doesn't work no um yeah and then he's like i wish i could go like give me one once about six up he's like the tachy on arrow in that's just like a once per game damage time it's not this particular yeah and like in the law they've got them you know shooting down titans and stuff we get um but it is again like they get gifted them and it is still a single use thing sycamars kind of got stuff like that the slayer of kings arky on sword if you roll two sixes to wound whatever you are fighting dies no saving throw they just die so nagash jonroll's two sixes so we got four attacks with it so it's not like a bonkers weapon but mostly stacks come from the throw through on you throw near his mounds but he rolls two sixes to wound whatever he is fighting be it god or man dies and that was tracking in back in third edition if you wounded with tracking in you were instantly killed and i don't think we should be in a position like that because it's not i mean i killed the titan once with that in like third edition of the stupid apocalypse game we're playing it down to our shop but you kind of just want a little bit more i guess it's the don't like sword isn't it a balancing from competitive like you can't have that stuff in a competitive game but and again like you said back in the older editions one of the assassins you could choose the movie unit of your own time and before the game and people do that like in a public game someone would sit a titan at the back and say my sassen's gonna move back move off the boys dead it's like that was a satisfying conclusion yeah it's almost i feel like you have like these supreme characters have two data sheets have a legends data sheet yeah just like history fucks here's your proof and then like the non-legends one that you're just like it's just an efficient unit which is heresie kind of have like a primark but i mean the primark's are 600 points sure like Horace is 600 points and Horace has ended is a thousand points yes you have to play about four and a half thousand point game to take Horace and the retinue if that's it and it's a similar you throw primarks at each other and heresy they just sit there for the entire game wailing on each other like not the hands they should yeah if you throw them at any other unit it point in the lead point in the lead and they just walk through um which is Horace's more here how much it's a more of a narrow system it's what i mean it's based off senate position and it's just kind of like that you know reams are key words back in the day and at least in heresy if one has the same ones so you kind of keep track but you know if it was in 40k it just would have worked nowadays i am excited to pick up a valor at some point so the customs could come like heresy yeah then getting the buff is what tipped me over the edge of my industrial dust i've you know i've flirted before i have my little valor converted a bunch of same reasons yeah yeah um and it's yeah this tip the valor but listens to lore about valor and the king of yellow sword i was like oh yeah it's so his character book like he's oh yeah fantastic really good i think there's the fuck off i think he turns evil yeah fuck off the one time for me and where hero hammer does not work is traysian fucking valor it is so dissatisfied well i mean he's saw me in the tournament with the start of the game i was like i get it he's a master of the custom he's like end of the game he's like fucking he's talking yeah 12 attacks and for two cp fight first i'll use chuffed but it is i posted this on uh sucking palin person who's one of the high rank duck end just plays when i'm cruising in and he was sort of saying that you know he got fucked basically by traysian i just deleted a unit and somebody commented and were like yeah what you need to do is throw something at him he pops his he blows his load on his moment chackle then you charge him the big thing and i'm fighting he doesn't need to use the moment chackle unless he's fighting the big thing and the problem is that you charge the big thing into him and no matter what it is he has enough attacks to kill it because he's a very efficient model and if he doesn't what are the unities with that's why he put in wardens because wardens get the minus one to win if you hit him with a higher trank so they confer that strategy so you now have because they've been tough they're going to be minus one to win if you're trying to kill them yeah it's a harvest and then you have tranks human mega physiology away which is called to give them the for up field events and minus one damage and shield it's like you know in the game he's chasing him i thought right i can i'll use your ass he's an ability to use some of his units i get with the guys because they have the higher damage something if my great being supposed to start going through all start affecting did that cool teleport her off right i'll throw down i'll try and again in my hubris precision traging out of his unit clavary slush great didn't move that 100 nothing it's right with tacks is that cool right yeah there's chalaxi down to like four wounds and the wardens haven't even like coughed yeah it's like yes the sultan dark angel script from the lion is charged traging she died yeah what there is half because i i'd seem like i love cos i was in the law i don't think they're great they're just like you know that kind of i guess 40k is about just other twats yeah but kind of cool about it and it's like i should be like that but man i think it's that it's like if custodes were lore accurate on the tabletop you have four models and you just have your own game yeah because you have if you're taking traging lore accurate traging is two thousand points yeah i need to walk around the table and kill them and score zero points in your own window anyway so i think one of those armies that's so difficult i have controversial things i'm like so which i've been told off for previously but i think custodes they're just one of those really weird armies to sit in the game because lore wise you'd maybe have you know fifty hundred points space marines and one unit of custodes with you they're not right like when i put my army down i'm deploying what 30 the 38-37 custodes somewhere like that is enough to take over a solar system yeah in the law i'm in the law i'm on one of the books up there the city of bones three custodes win the war this planet has fallen to chaos there is one city left it's almost a ceter terror three custodes come in and win it one dies that's not one of those that book has one like my favorite little sort of like it bits of story where the astral meta-tarum tracker she's guiding them three tunnels and she's like freezing she's terrifying on that one of the custodes just like rips a bit this kokop and gets it turned like obviously because he doesn't want their guide to die and she's like holy shit this is like a custodes kokai and blessed and it's like it's fucking bit of fabric yeah the custodes between the zelles on the fox they're like what the fuck are these lot doing like these are my good cli-es this is my dress club this is my Tuesday like it's my Tuesday like was that great line in the line in the forest when he um sets off to conquer the planet he wakes up on and he's in the mall it just says it'd been a while since i was talking to planet without the use of a space marine legion oh well i just kind of sets off and there's no human bodyguard he gets the lion guard yeah at least i don't need a body like i had the most powerful thing i was planning i do not need a bodyguard and i'm like and i think because they respect you like if you tell them that they're gonna be really upset and the lines like i don't understand cool well i think that is enough in data slate we got to work a lot of data i'll rain us in a little bit there but thank you for joining us and we will see you next time