Put it in perspective to what's in the class house. Like my thing is, the way I see it is, is we all have a reference for that place. There's a reverence to it all in the lines and the perfectness. And we always see it empty, don't we?
But what does everyone obviously, I mean, for me, I'm like, well, where does someone have sex there? You're gonna see it, you're gonna wanna see it. And like that all of a sudden feels more like a Cooper moment than all of a sudden it's an architectural moment. ["The New York-based Gate Pawn Studio"] Welcome to our next session's one to one.
I'm Amelia Taylor-Hauberg, and this week I'm speaking with Jake Jackson, CEO and creative director at the New York-based Gate Pawn Studio, Cocky Boys. I know what you might be thinking, why is an architecture site interviewing someone in the porn business? But Cocky Boys' role in the porn industry has a fair amount of common with architects in the building industry. Their high production value, carefully designed, sex positive productions are considered to be something special.
They see themselves as creative professionals, whose products are often undervalued or unfairly pigeonholed by mainstream media. When their goal in the end is to create something beautiful for humans to lead better, happier existences. Jake Jackson and his role as creative director is concerned with creating not only sexy films, but a sense of place that viewers can relate to and engage with. And leading with an attention to aesthetics is how Jake tries to distinguish Cocky Boys in a market awash with graceless utilitarian money shots.
I spoke with Jake from his office in New York as part of Archanex Special Issue on Sex and Sexuality and Architecture. So as I understand it, Cocky Boys existed before you came and bought it. It was started in 2007 and you purchased it in 2010. And at that point, the site had a very different aesthetic and artistic direction and you kind of decided to take it in your own direction.
Can you describe for me how the site dictated its artistic content before you came to it and then after what direction you wanted to take it in? Sure, when we first bought the site, it primarily was a site kind of dedicated to Southern California boys. It's most of them were straight and it had its own sort of new fresh aesthetic at the time. It was trying to be something more than just two guys in a bed.
They were really trying to break a mold in and of themselves. But when we took it over, myself and my partners are all gay and we just had a harder time relating to just straight performers or they're known as sort of gay for pay. So we made a more of a focus to hire gay performers and work with them. And when I started to engage a lot of the new performers that we were working with, they would bring to the table their creativity and their hopes and dreams and aspirations beyond just the sex industry.
And that inspired me. I mean, some are dancers, some are actors, some are singers. And that, prior to my being a pornographer, I was a writer, producer and director in a more mainstream sense. And I just started thinking, why don't we start thinking about this as entertainment and not porn?
And as soon as that changed, the concept of, let's produce something that's entertaining first that is highly sexualized or highly sexual and not just trying to produce something that's a utilitarian piece of content for people to get off on, that's what caused the change. And it caused us to wanna start to create larger, bigger projects beyond just two boys on the couch. And so the bread and butter stuff is the content for the website, the videos for the website, but then you also do longer features, is that correct? Yes, I mean, the site is a membership site.
It's a digital membership site. You pay a fee every month and we're constantly putting new content on it. Some of them will be more straightforward scenes that are meant to, whether it's very romantic or sort of nostalgic. And then within it, we have series, like Antiprares, which was a very big series for us.
In fact, we have a new series right now that is a mockumentary based on a boy band and it's called One Direction. And it's a good one. So, you know, and we did a, you know, one of our more famous series was called A Thing of Beauty, which was, you know, this very beautifully shot, sort of romantic, nostalgic scenes that were pieced together using Walt Whitman poems. And, you know, we should, you know, was like, really what?
So that's what, you know, we're always just trying to, you know, try something different and new within the adult space. But, you know, it really is something that's, it's kind of like, it's been to, you know, it's coming from a very, a place where we're inspired and wanna create, you know, just enjoy our work. It's interesting you use the word utilitarian because I think that that is kind of the basic expectation and the kind of, why would you ever need anything else? Kind of question about a lot of adult filmmaking is the idea of just like, this is here to serve a purpose.
And so, why would I wanna invest more in, say, having it have a specific consistent and kind of genre pushing aesthetic style when I'm, like, if the presumption is that I'm just here for like one reason and one reason only and I can get that reason fulfilled regardless of whether that extra design, touch or whatever is there. But I think it would help just because I'm going to presume that most of our audience is not specifically familiar with Kaki Boy's content to kind of describe, as you would like any film, mainstream or art film or however, like, how would you describe the art direction and the kind of aesthetic of the films? Wow, I would say it's starting from a romanticized nostalgic feeling. It's almost like I'm trying to create the memory of my perfect sexual experience.
And we've all had them, you know, we've all had them, hopefully everyone has had an amazing mind-blowing sexual experience that they can kind of, wow, that was life, you know? And so I'm trying to recreate that for viewers so that they can watch it in a way and at the end of their experience, feel entertained, feel informed and most importantly, not feel guilty. And, you know, so to that degree, I'm trying to create something that has a look and a feeling and an energy that it looks like quality, the performers look and you can feel like it's authentic that they want to be there. And so at the end of the experience, you feel like, okay, that was worth it.
That was money will spent or that was worth my time or I don't feel like anyone there was necessarily being exploited. And so much of that for me comes from, you know, it really is a kind of a rebellion, I guess, from my upbringing, a very, very, very religious upbringing and a very tortured adolescence and early youth about sex and my sexuality based on what I've been taught in as a religious sense. So I'm kind of trying to free my mind at the same time of other people connect to the concept that, you know, sex is good, it's what made us, it's something it's part of our life. So I don't know, does that help?
Yeah, absolutely. But I think that we could also get a little bit more specific in how, because you prefer to this term nostalgia and I think that in terms of creating a creative object, like actual and creative production, that there is this kind of classic idea that creative production is like you have a perfect experience, you have like an ideal, a platonic idea that exists and you're trying to realize that in some form. And that always, whatever media and the fact that you're a person who is flawed, like in creating that object that you're here at, you're trying to get to that ideal, there's always some compromise, but you figure out ways that in the media you can kind of shift things around to still evoke that feeling or that ideal that you previously experienced. So I'm wondering then when you say nostalgia, I immediately think of things like Instagram, you know, like there's a filter that makes you, that either evokes that certain film production treatment that only existed in that specific time and therefore makes you feel like you did when you were in that time or blah, blah, blah, blah, but, so can you point to like a specific item or a specific technique in the way that talking boys films are made that kind of speaks to this creation of that experience that you're referring to?
Sure, I mean, my partner and I, you know, he goes my RJ Sebastian and he worked as a model and an actor very successfully, you know, for many years. I mean, you know, working actor, working model and I was also a successful writer producer. And one of the things that we, you know, what we found is when we started working with performers, there was immediately, once we started dealing with other customers or other people that went their perception of porn, okay? The first thing you get is, oh, it's porn or, you know, you couldn't think of something better with their life or this is, you know, basically like this is a, you know, porn and there's a sort of a judgmental aspect to it.
And one of the things I found very quickly, just sort of listening to how people related. And I found that a lot of people watched it and they liked it and it was a part of their experience. But what happened is they had a very dismissive reaction to the performers, the performers were disposable. And you know, there just was this kind of, you know, energy towards that.
So what we started to do was wanting to create an experience for the performers, to where this was something they were really, really proud of. And the best way I described it when we first started to do it was you remember that the Abercrombie and Fitch catalogues? Oh yeah, totally grew up in that era of advertising. So there was Bruce Weber shooting them all intertwined and their shirts off and they're all there.
And you kept flipping the pages. And at any moment you thought you were gonna turn the page and see full penetration, them going at it. I mean, it was literally almost there. And so the way I described what we were doing is I'm like, I want to be that page term.
I want to be the next thing they see in that catalog. So those two boys were just leaning perfectly on each other in that Bruce Weber image. Well, now I want to see them kiss. Now I want to see them, you know, go down on each other.
Now I want to see what they would look like, you know, if they were making love. So that's kind of, you know, that was sort of the spark of why, you know, of how these things look. And in many, many cases, you know, a lot of times people will look at some of the things that we do and it will not at all, you know, in fact, we had our customer sort of coin a term that said it's not gay porn, it's cocky boys. Because it just, it sort of lived in a space of its own.
What was that conventional, it's not gay porn. What kind of are the stereotypes of that kind of aesthetic that they would be kind of dismissively referring to? Oh, you know, just how people are posed or where they were at. You know, a lot of times it's like, you know, a lot of women were shot in a religious studios on a neon box or on a grungy couch or, you know, and this was, you know, I guess released in the last 10 years.
And so here we were then, you know, finding different places where they would be or, you know, they would, you know, be a bear lake kind of setting like an amber-covian fish catalog or in a cabin in the woods or we would shoot in Fire Island, really, you know, beautiful, you know, chic little cabins or then it started to turn into, you know, more elaborate productions and, you know, like, I think a beauty, we rented out this resort in Saloon, Mexico that was just literally on the cusp of a, you know, it was the end of the world. It was just hanging there and this pool went, this infinity pool went out into forever. So we really just was like, you know, let's go to these places and create a feeling more than that, sort of, you know, utilitarian, like, put him in the studio and, you know, get it going. I mean, it's interesting, you know, Woody Allen has a, it was a place saying that he has when, you know, when asked what's the difference between corn and erotica and he goes, the lighting.
With that stutter, with that perfect stutter. And I was like, you know, I remember seeing that, like he's absolutely right. So we don't light our scenes. I mean, almost everything we do is natural light, you know, trying to, you know, create that feeling, that just before feeling you have on maybe a Sunday morning when you're, you know, or Sunday afternoon, when you're in bed with someone you love or you're flirting with or you want to be with, just that, just beginning stage of, I think something's going to happen here, you know.
So I hope that's making sense. Yeah, absolutely. So you referred to also sometimes shooting like on specific locations or going out to do shoots that are then kind of built into whatever larger narrative you're drawing onto. Is there kind of a ideal, did you have like a fantasy site or like place or particularly like architectural site that you might be interested in producing something on or with?
Oh, I mean, the glass house. Yeah, yeah, I can see why. So, but do you think that's because your audience would kind of would automatically understand the like incredible depth of historical reference to a place of architecture like that within the gay community or just because it's a beautiful piece of architecture that your audience might otherwise appreciate? You know, I think that would be something, you know, let me just say this is a very interesting thing.
A large part of our audience are actually women. I mean, like 30% of our members are women. And so we have a very robust community of people that watch our films and sort of come to our films. And I'm always trying to interject something with the assumption that people don't know what I'm talking about or what I'm referencing or where I'm at.
And with the hope that it not only is the sexual experience stimulating them or causing them to understand or explore, but yeah, you know, hopefully they would go, oh, what is this Bible verse meaning? Or what is this Walt Whitman poem? Where's that from? I never really studied him.
So I always kind of go into it with, you know, assuming that people don't quite, you know, they're not expecting to immediately understand my place or my setting or my meeting. And that's the fun of it is to, you know, is to stimulate, you know, the multiple parts of our audience. You know, I call it the head-heart head rule. So it's like a almost a pedagogical function is like, get them hooked instead of like sex sells, sex teaches or so.
Or is that too pity? Well, no, I mean, that makes sense, you know, but like to put it in perspective to once again, the class house, like my thing is, you know, the way I see it is, is we all have a reference for that place. You know, there's a reverence to it all the lines and the perfectness and we always see it empty, don't we? And but what does everyone obviously, I mean, mother worth it, I mean, for me, I'm like, well, where does someone have sex there?
You're going to see it. You're going to want to see it. And like that all of a sudden feels more like a Cooper moment than all of a sudden it's an architectural moment. I'm thinking back to a feature that we published on the site of might have been a year or so ago, we do a feature where we showcase different architectural publications and we did a piece on the Farnsworth house that specifically kind of cataloged the kind of sexual tension involved in the creation of that place, not necessarily as one that was a pure historical treatment.
It wasn't as if there was something like actually really going on between Mise Vendreau and Farnsworth, but that just that that was taken up as something, as a question in the course of a man and a woman working on a project of that stature together. And the fact that it is this glass thing, this is a different glass house, obviously, but we're just talking in terms of glass houses at this point, that kind of brought in this voyeur aspect and these other parts of living that do have very charged sexual references to them. And that is something that I think in architecture is often thought of as an off-hand way, perhaps you're designing a hotel and you're thinking about people coming there and wanting to have an escape and having opportunity to be intimate or however, but it's not always taken at the same level of explicitness as you might say if you were looking for sites to film porn, but there's still equal amounts of significance, you would say in how those spaces might inform the kind of sexual experience that goes on within them. So I'm glad you brought up that house in particular.
Oh, good. Well, part of, look, the act of porn is watching. And so we're sitting back in the darkness or the quiet of our own room or on a computer and we're watching. And a lot of what I'm trying to do is actually create some sort of interactive experience by, for instance, most of our series are, there's 20 to 30 minutes of storytelling and acting before we get to a sexual experience.
And many of the features I want it all to be completely integrated. So I feel where I set my scenes, it's something I've been probably way more time and way more money on than really any of my competitors. Because I want people to be able to connect to that sort of sense of place and be able to try to almost in some ways replicate it. So that actually brings up a very dry question that I want to ask you.
Specifically, what is the business model of Talkie Boys? I know you run on a subscription setting, but can you explain kind of briefly how the business makes money? Yeah, the best way you could sort of describe it, it's kind of like a Netflix model. You know, you people have a membership and they can choose to have that membership or your career as long as they can watch or download anything that's on the site.
And what we're trying to do is always sort of create something new and fresh and exciting. And so it makes people want to say there beyond that, you know, that is the digital delivery aspect of it. But we also, you know, we have hard goods and DVDs, we license our content to cable channels and hotels. And, you know, so there are many, many ways to monetize the content.
And particularly in reference to your audience as well, you have like a lot of exchange with the audience to kind of read what people are both from your own readings of online metrics and such, but also just interfacing directly with the community and talking with them about what kind of content they might like to see or be challenged by. Absolutely. I mean, we have a very robust social media presence. We encourage people to comment on the scenes as we release them.
So, you know, people can always, you know, write comments on every film. You know, this summer, I mean, this spring, you know, there's like, we have an award show called The Gratty's, which is kind of like the Oscars of gay adult. And at that event, it's in Chicago, it happens in the May. This is the second year that we have our own sort of, you know, mini fan convention called Kake Khan.
And, you know, where fans can, you know, come in directly interact with us. We've done book tours. You know, the last two years we've done, you know, two book tours throughout Europe. You know, we visited four or five different cities.
So we're always looking for as many chances to interact with members and fans as possible. And yes, we do, you know, like to create an energy where we know what they like and what they don't like or, you know, what they're interested in. A lot of our female fans came to us through, I say, through, but, you know, they were a lot of more infirm romance readers. And we had produced a film or a series, I guess, maybe four years ago, called The Haunting, which was, you know, about a haunted house.
And, you know, all these different people were experiencing these lovers from years and years ago, you know, trying to get back together. And, you know, that really can, a lot of people, a lot of female fans came to us because it felt like a romance novel. So we were very excited and very blessed that we just, something we never knew would existed. And so, you know, to a great degree, you know, it's that kind of feedback that has fueled us to keep creating more elaborate projects.
So with that, that base, that audience base and having that strong relationship, do you feel like the audience is directly responding to not just the content and not just the proclivities or however that you decide to work with, but specifically the actual look of the videos. Like, it's a question that is maybe a little bit hard to actually answer specifically, but say if you imagine another site that might produce content exactly the same as yours, but not with the same kind of attention to like the HD aspect and like natural lighting, do you think your fans and your audience would, how do you think they would respond to it? How much do you think is the fact that they're on your site based on that extra attention to those kind of technical production details? Well, I think what it is, is I think at the end of the day, I think people look at the content and they have a strong sense that we care about it, that we're proud of it, that it's an authentic expression, not only from ourselves, but also the performers.
We can never negate the performer in any of this. I mean, I can have the most beautiful room in the world, you know, and designed impeccably, but if I have two people in that space that are not able to connect an authentic, expressive, exciting way, it will just always fall flat. So, you know, like I said, it's like, anybody's work, when someone puts any kind of attention to detail, or any kind of desire to want to deliver the best for the people who are experiencing it, that's what will make someone say, that's what will make someone respect it. So, I think it's a mutually respectful engagement.
There are other sites, I mean, like Dala Me, for instance, once again, they are hugely popular, they've been around for 20 years, but you can never deny the fact that they're not respecting their audience, they have the most beautiful voice. And once again, they will take them to the most beautiful opulent settings, whether it's in Greece or South Africa or throughout Eastern Europe. And so, once again, there is a, there's a, I guess, a covenant between them and their audience, that we're only going to deliver you what we think is the best. And so, just like an architect's might or designer would work with the client to help decide exactly what kind of how they'll interpret the program of the project or however it is, do you work with your performers to design the sets, design the settings for the performances?
You know, sometimes, you know, part of our model operation is we have exclusive performers, so we have, but it's almost like an old school Hollywood system where, you know, I worked for Louis V. Maia, and I've been a vegetable engineer. Yeah, you know, it's kind of like that and you're with your studio. And, you know, some of our performers have been with us for, you know, three, four, five years now.
And so, what's going to happen is you, as you, as you work with them, you get a sense of what is exciting them and you don't want to do things that are going to board them. So, they're like, ah, kind of already, you know, been in this room with it this way. So, you, you know, there, we once again, is the balance of anything is making sure we're doing something for them where they feel just as excited and just as liberated as anybody else. And the best way I can kind of describe that is, I mean, who doesn't go on a vacation or go out of town and as soon as they get in the hotel, they're like, oh my God, this is fabulous.
And you have a new lease on life. And, you know, and people who are, you know, that's why hotel sex is fun. Because it's like, this isn't my room. It's not boring.
It's not my life. It's not stale. It's like, we can be crazy here. We can be a little different.
That is the same thing for when we're shooting. And so, we're always looking for, you know, with our, with our stable performers, not only, you know, constantly creating new work that challenges them and lets them excel, but also, you know, going to a fire island or going to shoot in Paris or, you know, when you shot in Berlin or, you know, like, something went to Mexico or, you know, always finding something unique and different that also, you know, stimulates and excites them. Because, you know, look, a nice place, a nice room, will always create a feeling for someone, whether it's safety or comfort or, you know, even can sexually energize them. So, you know, that does become part of our balance, I guess.
And I know you obviously have, you have been successful. And so you're not in a position where you're, you know, scrambling to continue or to try to build up the business in a way that is because it's threnders. So, but I am wondering if you feel like there's some kind of axe to grind still in particularly either the porn industry or specifically the gay porn industry for producing content that has a certain quality such that it can kind of work to, I don't want to necessarily say decigmatize because I don't think that like really the stigma around gay sex is not something that really has to be a concern anymore in this context. I feel I hope that at least on the internet that that is like something that of course there's an established audience for that doesn't need to be questioned.
But nonetheless, porn is still stigmatized as we've spoken to for. So, whether or not you feel that there's some kind of, yeah, axe to grind or things you have to kind of like actively fight against in producing work that appeals to a certain higher quality, specifically to kind of work against those either expectations or stereotypes. That's a great question. It's interesting because I worked in another, I actually kind of hate to use the word mainstream to describe mainstream entertainment.
I think many times more people have watched some of our films and see what we're doing than most cable channels. So, I feel like what we are doing in a lot of porn is in some ways mainstream. But a lot of people that I work within this industry are really some of the best people that I have worked with ever in terms of being straightforward and honest and sincere and they come from a good, caring place. This January, I gave the keynote address to a convention in Vegas of our part of the industry called Gavian.
And one of the things I addressed in that speech was I feel like as an industry, we don't talk about sex. We're talking about types of porn. We're talking about niches and how do we make it and conversion ratios and the business of it. But we're not talking about sex.
It is oddly enough on a really big picture away when we get into the upper echelon of the actual industry no one is talking about. No one's talking about sexual health and why we do what we do. And a lot of, you know, we always look at things and step back and look at the context. I mean, there was a time that this, what we produced was under the counter.
It was hidden. It was illegal to have. You couldn't touch it. You could go to jail for it.
And that isn't the case anymore. And so because it isn't taboo and because it isn't wrong and it isn't bad and isn't sinful, you know, it is completely changed the industry. And in terms of that's why a lot of people feel like, well, I can take it or pirate it or steal it. It just there and once again, it gets back to my notion of this because of all this, it has become disposable.
I mean, when people watch it gobble up very quickly and then they're done with it. And what we're trying to do with our company is not change the way people think or feel about porn, but to really change the way people feel and think about sex. And I think, you know, that is probably a really big issue for just generally America. You know, I, I finally have a huge problem with the fact that, you know, we have no problem broadcasting the most violent, you know, acts, you know, on network TV and prime time, but we can't, we can't see any sort of sexual activity or we can't talk about sex.
We can't, I mean, starting to less than a little more, but it's still stigmatized. So I, you know, if I had an axe to grind, it was, I wish more pornography would connect to the fact that we are able now that there really is the possibility, genuine possibility that the porn that we produce actually has a purpose. And in helping people, you know, unscramble the insanity in their head of what they've been taught about sex, whether it's wrong, whether it's sinful, whether it is an abomination or whatever the case is. And I think that we have the power to do that through our work.
Has your work with hockey boys also directly influenced how you design your own space in your own personal life and your own, I mean, I understand you're obviously not an architect, but in how you conceive of your own spaces and your own experience of the built environment has working in this particular industry and producing this kind of content changed your own personal life in our guide. Absolutely. With 100%. I mean, you know, like I said, I grew up in a very religious upbringing in New Orleans in South Louisiana.
I grew up, you know, I'll be 44 on Sunday. You know, I, every night, you know, I've sit at the table by mom and my dad and the news would be on about the age crisis. And my mom, I mean, literally, I just remember vividly, you know, turn to me, you know, do you know these men are receiving God's punishment? And do you know how they got this disease?
They had anal sex with each other. And at that time, I was starting to become the age where I was attracted to men and I was silly underwear ads and, you know, I'm GQ and, you know, and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm Mark for death. And that fundamentally changed, you know, how I then, you know, move forward into college and, you know, being a liar about who I was and my sex and my everything. Well, you know, most people who understand I live in a polyamorous relationship.
There are three of us, you know, at the end of the day, according to my mom, I'm a polygamous pornography. And so I am. I'm proud. Right.
Boom. Forget about it. So I, you know, I'm very proud about what I do. I, like I said, I, I've created an environment.
I, you know, we live in a compound or we also shoot in, you know, beautiful, beautiful space. And everybody comes into my environment and comes into what we're doing. The, you know, I want them to be proud of who they are and what they do. And most importantly, it's like, look, we only live for today.
We, you know, if you can live, you know, and love yourself and be mutually respectful to everyone around you, there is no reason why we can't have, you know, a nice life. And I do believe that, you know, one of the things that creates so much upset in people's lives is sex. You know, they lie about it. They lie about who they are to it.
They have guilt about it, or they might have been taught, you know, for years and years about who they are is wrong and how they're having sex is wrong, or we have body conscious issues. Am I, am I good enough? Am I, you know, am I lean enough? Am I become fat or I don't like, am I here?
Is or I'm getting old or whatever? These are all things that I want to help people sort of strip away, just chip away all of that. And, you know, start to see by, you know, watching erotic content in a way that is makes them feel like, God, that's beautiful. That is, there's nothing wrong with that.
And it just feels natural. It feels safe. It feels like they're respecting each other. It feels authentic.
So a lot of times it's funny because we aren't a polyamorous relationship. I know there are people will say, well, how does it work? Do you all sleep in the same bed? Or, what's who's doing what?
And I just always tell people to say, you want to know what my sex life is like, watch my films, because you will see what I find to be worth celebrating. And you'll see how and what I like sexually. And I'm kind of an open book that way. Well, I appreciate that.
And I'm so glad we got the chance to talk. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and happy birthday. Oh, thank you. Thanks for listening, Dark Next Sessions.
One to One with Jake Jackson of Cockey Boys, part of our Connect Special Issue on Sex and Sexuality and Architecture. Donnie LoBoyne, all that is the podcast, and Matt Scaling's composed our music. Myself and Paul Petunia are the producers of One to One. New episodes come out every Monday.
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