19 - Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

The marketing movement by Refined Labs. All right, welcome everyone. This is an episode of the marketing movement with your Refined Labs crew, minus Chris and Megan, because we like to talk also about different marketing things. So for this episode, what we're going to tackle today is imposter syndrome.

So we'll get into a little bit of what is imposter syndrome, who faces it, things like that. But have a great panel of different employees from the Refined Labs team. So I want to make sure that you know who's joining us today and everything else. So my name's Sam Keanley.

I'm a VP of demand here at Refined Labs. And I've been here for almost a year and a half now. I'll pass it over to the next individual Scott. Yeah, I'm Scott Schilling.

I'm a director at the band gen at Refined Labs. And I started here at the beginning of January this year. I'll pass it over to Kevin. Thanks Scott.

Kevin Jake with director of demand gen. I've been with Refined for just about eight months. And it's been incredible. Excited to be here.

I'll pass it off to Liz. Hey guys, I'm Liz Vector. I'm a director of demand gen here at Refined Labs. And I'm going on to month two here at Refined Labs.

So almost to veteran basically. Hey everyone, I'm Steve Floyd, also a director of demand gen. And I was going to say the same thing. I started in December.

It's been three months now. So I feel new and like a grizzled veteran at the same time. But I was going to be here. I love it.

Yeah, I'm excited to pull this group together. So you can see definitely a wide range of experience. We say one month is equivalent to a year in house B to B when you're at Refined Labs. So a lot of experience here today.

But yeah, excited to talk more about imposter syndrome. It's a topic that definitely comes up frequently in the space. I know many people feel it. Myself included them.

And the rest of us are here today. So first off, what is imposter syndrome? So first to an internal experience of believing that you are not as competent as others perceive you to be. So to put it simply, imposter syndrome is the experience of feeling like a phony.

You feel as though at any moment you're going to be found out as a fraud. Like you don't belong where you are. You only got there through dumb luck. It can affect anyone, no matter your social status, your work, background, skill level, or degree of expertise.

So with that is the framework. Today we want to tackle a couple of topics. One of them being how do you overcome imposter syndrome? So with this group here today, I'd love for each of us to talk for a few minutes about what's your story with imposter syndrome?

And I'd love to start with that. So Kevin, I know you've got some thoughts. I'd love for you to pick it all for us. Sure.

Thanks, Sam. Yeah, I think everybody at some point in their career has experienced this. And I think it can be really intimidating, especially if you want to grow your career. Because you're imposing these self limiting beliefs that you're not capable of doing something.

And I think for me, early in my career, it was definitely much more of an issue, just because I didn't have as much experience. So it's coming out of college, not really having a lot of real world work experience besides summer jobs and things like that. And then trying to get into the working world and having interviews and talking to people that have decades of experience. And it can be very challenging because you feel overwhelmed.

So I think in early in your career, if you start to think about how you can embrace a growth mindset and start to really think about developing a process and thinking about what do you really want to do? And I was talking to one of our other performance marketing managers this morning. And we were talking about this podcast. And I was like, when I was in college, I wanted to be marketing manager.

And that was my goal. And I've gone beyond that already. And I was really limiting myself there. So I think being aware of those limitations early on is really helpful.

And I wish I had had that insight when I was earlier in my career. But I think with everything, it takes time and experience to get that insight. So you have to go through the process yourself. So I think that's been key for me.

Because I always look at positions and roles that are a step or two above where I am right now. And looking at what skills do you need to have to get to that point? And that's been a really good guide for me. Because it's like understanding, all right, no, what's the next step I need to take a micro?

Where do I need to level up? And how do I do that? And I think that's really goes back to the growth mindset. So you're not fixed, right?

And I think, for me, typically two years at a company, and then I move on. Because I've kind of mastered it. And I think that has really helped me too. Because when you start to get comfortable, you're not learning.

It's time. It's a signal to move on. And I think that's really the key too. So it's like, the more you do that, the more comfortable you're going to get with uncertainty.

Interviewing things like that, you're going to just continue to grow. So for me, that's been a really big unlock for me. It's kind of thinking through that process. But then it's also embracing your true self-ship, right?

And finding your authentic voice and being comfortable. So when you go in an interview, act like you are every day. Don't put this side of this person that you think they want. And I think that's really something that I definitely noticed early on at Refine Labs, especially going through that process, which I can get to a little bit later.

But I think being yourself is key. It's like, you are who you are. Don't change yourself for somebody else. Be yourself.

And then surround yourself with people that want to grow themselves and ask for feedback frequently. And I think if you follow that path, it's going to really just help you. I love that. That's incredible.

So I've got that for Earth Mindset. Surround yourself with great people. Couldn't have said it any better. So thank you, Kevin, for sharing that.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, Liz, we'd love to hear what your thoughts are on this. Yeah, so first of all, I love the concept of the growth mindset. That's something that I discovered a few years back.

And has just been such a guiding light for me in my career. And like you mentioned, kind of spreading it beyond just your everyday work life to your everyday, actual life is such a game changer. Because the person that you are at work and around your friends is really essentially the same person. And if you're not, if you're doing this constant thing where you're trying to flip this switch and have a growth mindset at work, but then maybe like be a different person behind closed doors type of thing, like the stars just won't align in that way.

So thinking about that approach from just like a holistic standpoint, you know, like, no, this is not just an initiative and an objective that I do because it's like an OK artwork or something like that, but something that I take on and embody in my entire life. So I really love that, Kevin. For me, it's really been like, I think every time I've moved in my career, whether it's, you know, taking a new step into a new role or just like leveling up my skill set, I almost like to take it from like a little bit of a stoic standpoint where, you know, to a certain degree, you almost aren't an imposter when you're first starting something out because you don't have all the skills that are required and it's almost like that big until you make it mindset approach. And I think when I first started my career, I felt wrong feeling that way.

Like I felt like, oh my gosh, what if somebody sees it, I'm doing fake it until you make it type of stuff, you know, what if I'm not actually leveling up my skills, you know? And I think the biggest unlock for me has been that no matter how many times I go through the process and no matter how many times I prove to myself that I can do something, no matter where you land in your career next, you're always going to kind of still have that feeling. So really understanding that everyone feels it, that it happens naturally. And you just have to keep proving to yourself that you can accomplish certain things and certain challenges for me has been like the biggest thing to overcome it.

And again, like as you continue to tackle new challenges, it almost kind of, it's ironic, but it becomes like a cycle of like you getting a little bit excited about having that feeling again, because if you don't have that feeling throughout your career, it's almost like, you know, you're doing the same stuff all the time, you're not leveling up your skill set. So just the whole, like looking at it from like a lens of just understanding that it's a cycle that everybody goes through, for me has helped so much. I have nothing to add to that. That was incredible.

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on that when they lose. Scott, what about you? Yeah, I have a lot of similar feelings on this with Kevin and Liz. And you know, Kevin was mentioning like this kind of like every two years or so cycle where you feel like you sort of capped out and then you move on to something else.

So I think imposter syndrome is a good thing and to embrace it because I find when I don't have it, then I'm sort of bored or you're not learning anymore and you don't have that growth like Liz was talking about. For me, particularly, I've probably moved around every 18 months or so. And I also change industries, which is a weird choice. So there's that like imposter syndrome around your role and growing in your expertise, but then also understanding a new industry.

And I think I found a lot of power in that change just realizing that like the things that I don't understand, I'm actually at that point when I'm new at a company probably closest to the customer's understanding what we do. And I find myself like going back to the notes that I took at the very beginning, and using that like in the marketing or in whatever I'm trying to do at that company. And then I think another thing that I've really tried to lean into is bouncing around industries I've had to learn from a lot of other people or learn from agencies and vendors that I've worked with. And I always had this feeling like I was maybe an imposter because I had an idea that it wasn't original or I got it from somebody else.

And then just realizing that like taking the things you learn from everybody else and applying them to a new problem or something that you're working on, that actually is a good skill, that's a way to get there a lot faster. And then just like I said, where you feel like you're the smartest person in the room is probably time to move on. Timeless advice there, and really enjoyed that example when you're talking about you come in with that fresh point of view from a different industry. You can read marketing, business books over and over, you're probably going to keep hearing the same thing over and over, but when you come from the viewpoint of a different industry or something else, you can connect the dots and find those parallels to bring that into your new rule that a lot of people they just may not have been exposed to and that's where you can at a lot of value.

Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you for that. And the rounded out, Steve, I'd love to hear your story. Yeah, I mean, there's not a whole lot more to say, but I mean, I have sort of a timely take on this and it's so much of what we said ties into it, that you need this feeling of imposter syndrome or not feeling adequate to learn more.

And because in the book, they talk a lot about to get to master you first have to accept your apprenticeship, which I feel like I just went through as a new member of a fine-less team, but it was a good reminder that in a new job, whatever you're tackling, your job is it to be the master right away. It's actually to listen and learn and watch others doing. So that's where I feel I'd be getting into imposter mode and I'm like, wow, look at all these experts around me, they're crushing it. And I don't know if I can, but kind of giving yourself that space and that grace to be like, nope, I've stepped into something new.

I'm feeling imposter syndrome, but it's normal and it's my time to listen and learn and be that apprentice. And sort of, that's helped me like accept that time and then help overcome a little bit of what I'm feeling. But I think even just for me personally, a lot of the imposter syndrome comes from, like it just in my role, like I was a marketer, I felt like I was self-taught. I never had like someone else doing demand and with me at the different jobs I was at, I was hired to be that person, which was awesome because to your point, Sam, I didn't read it all in a book.

I just had to do it because that's what I was hired to do. And I think sometimes you can doubt like well, I've only learned from myself. So like is that gonna be good enough to take to the next company and apply, but I think those self-taught skills are just so much more valuable in addition to reading theory and books, but you can't just read the theory along, you have to apply it. So if you've been doing something for a long time, take stock and that you've gained skills, you've got an experience and that helped me overcome some level of imposter syndrome.

Yeah, that's such a good point where, when you are that single person in house or somewhere else, you might doubt yourself more than others in the organization doubt you and that's where you become defensive of, am I good enough and you start questioning it. So that's such a good point to make there. I just wanted to add Steve, I love the point about being self-taught. So I think like oftentimes, I mean, I could say for myself, but none of us went to school for demand, gender, reality.

Maybe we have marketing degrees, maybe we have business degrees, but in reality, this is a skill set that has totally not been taught in school. You don't really learn digital marketing in traditional college, maybe post programs and things like that. But I think that's something that's very, very unique to this career path. And that's probably why every time we take on a new challenge and we try to prove ourselves, we can learn this and conquer it and we feel this way.

So I love that point. And that's something that I think should resonate with many folks that are in our space and in our function as well. I'm about to drop the Zoom mic on that one because there's so much value just in that alone where you hit a spot on, and college you learn about product price, place promotion, these timeless things, but you look at demand generation today, the subset of marketing, the what's the latest platform? How do you do iOS 14 and that change?

It is impossible to stay up to date if that's going to a book, that's three years behind already. So there's always going to be this curve that you have to stay ahead of and yeah, that's gonna feed into part of the syndrome where it's, you have to get to know everything, but everyone else is right there with you. No one has a head start on finding out about it. I mean, these things that are gonna happen.

That's, I mean, you guys just nailed it. I mean, really, because like that to me is like the crux of it. It's like, there is no real path, right? You've got to make your own, because I went to college for marketing.

I'm still in my major that I chose, I'm still working, but the principles to your point, Sam, are so different than what we're doing. You know, it's like the principles are there, but it's like focusing on the customers and understanding their journey, their needs, but it's like how do you stay up to date with all the technology, the tactics, the trends, things like that? That's the part that's really hard. And I do think there's something with not having that piece of paper saying like, hey, I'm credible because I've gone through this process.

And I mean, we've got certificates, you've got all the different things you can do online, but I feel like that could be part of the reason why people feel that imposter syndrome because there's no governing body that's like, yes, you are a demand-gen marketer. I think that really will hit home for most listeners here because it is something that I'm constantly challenged with reading, learning from people on LinkedIn, seeing that, it's like how do we get to that level? It's like seeing Chris is posting the engagement there. It's like, how do you ever get to that?

But you've got to realize that at one point, he was starting out too. And then that's, you've got to avoid the comparison trap. Yeah, that's that, because when you're comparing yourself to the, that 1% person who's made it in success in their industry, their role or something, they put in a lot of hours behind that point. It wasn't a one day all of a sudden, I want to know a demand-gen and be the expert on it.

That's that, they took that same path as you. You're just seeing that later state result. Crazy to think that some of the platforms that we talk about every day didn't exist when we were in school, where you couldn't advertise on them. The pace of change, I think that's just a really good call out.

It's not like gap accounting where you're just like, oh, I know it now and other tools change. Not to say that's not a hard job, I don't want anything to do with that. But it's just, yeah, I feel like if you don't have a little imposter syndrome, maybe all the time, then you're probably just not in marketing or doing marketing. Running the old playbook, most likely.

So cool. A very common thread between all of us here is that most of us when we first saw Refine Labs, it was, that's a place of, there's the cutting edge of a lot of marketing. I don't know if I'm up the par for joining that company. We have people that come in and say, I was nervous to apply for this because I didn't feel like I met the criteria.

Or I never would have applied for this head, or recruited or not reached out to me, or had I not received a message from someone or a colleague recommended and said, you should go for that because you are qualified. So I would love to hear from each of you what the interview process was like, how you approached it and just your story that needs into it. So let's go on over to this time. Let's start with Steve.

Yeah, I think I definitely fell into the camp of had I not been reached out to, would never reply, which is ridiculous, because I was like a disciple of like the podcast and was like actively trying to incorporate all of those things into my role as at in-house. And so, you know, why wouldn't I have like thought to like go straight to the source and see, you know, test my skills, but for whatever reason, I think the imposter syndrome probably started before it even began, but after getting that, I was grateful I got this invitation to talk. And I think one of my own personal experience, I was excited to hear that the first conversation is with someone from Refine Labs leadership. So, you know, while that was of course intimidating, I'm like, oh, okay, cool, we're just gonna talk to like the higher ups.

Excellent. I also sort of sort of changed my reference of like, great, well, if they don't think I'm up to snuff, worst I'll have had like, you know, or I best I'll have had a nice little conversation with leadership and they'll have told me, you know, let's move on, that'd be great. And then it'll be reassuring to me, at worst like they would tell me I'm not quite up to speed, but I'd probably get some recommendations of, here's some things that you could work on, you know, it would just be a conversation I wouldn't have wasted any one's time, including mine. But the other thing I think that's nice about the Refine Labs interview process is that, at least for me, after each successive round, I sort of built my confidence because, you know, everyone's very transparent, you kind of know that if whether or not you're going to be moving forward, and that's a nice thing just as a candidate interviewing, but that built my confidence with each successive conversation, which was good.

So I think the imposter syndrome sort of faded as I went through. And then I loved that there was sort of an assessment project, sample work piece of it because that's something I've done with every person I've ever hired. So I was glad to see that the company was doing it. I actually found it reassuring because while it was a lot of work and you know, I had to think about it and showcase, you know, how I think, it definitely was more reassuring for me versus intimidating just from the sense of like, great, like they're asking me to do what I know how to do.

And you know, at the end of the day, if it's not good enough, no, no foul, but like it definitely instilled more confidence in me. I have to say that I was like 100% confident, but it was just a good process overall. And I think you know that you're working towards something good if you're imposter syndrome fades as you go through the process versus gets heightened. Granted, the stakes were higher because as the more I went through, the more excited I was to come and work here.

But yeah, I think that was sort of the story of my every process. Yeah, that's fascinating. You were already running it and incorporating that strategy in-house, but for whatever reason, you know, when you saw this, you're just like, I can't do that for others. So going through the interview and, you know, validating that through the assessment, did you become a lot more comfortable just because you're like, I've already done this.

It's pretty natural and it's not like they've got some magic rescue they're looking for me to do. Exactly. You look at that and you're like, great, they're asking me to showcase my demand-gen work. Cool, I can do that.

You know, I'm like, I don't even know what I thought it would be, but it was definitely more intimidating before I saw it. All right, Scott, we'll love to hear your story. Yeah, my experience is so similar to Steve's. I had been, I think, following Chris and just looking at things from a finalist for a couple months and thinking about it, but like wasn't ready to take any action.

And then actually the only reason I ended up, I think applying when I did was, my whole marketing and demand-gen team got laid off. So I had no reason to not apply at that point, but I think like even right as a layoffs happen, I had friends and coworkers who are like, okay, you're gonna go work for that guy now that you're always sharing his videos. So, you know, so my interviews too were really similar to Steve's experience where I was pretty intimidated coming into it. I have like always been, worked with really great marketers, but I was the only like demand-gen or like, I was like the internet guy, you know, like the digital marketing person.

And so spend like your whole career kind of trying to talk about these things at like a fifth grade level. And then I'm like, now I have to go explain it to the pros and like, I'm gonna forget the words, or I'm not gonna say it well, or I'm just gonna like completely like use the wrong acronym or just say something stupid. But it wasn't that at all. Like I think the conversations and just every step of the process came super naturally because you're talking to people that work on the same types of challenges and problems.

And I think that the technical aspects of the interviews and the presentation like those are also scary, but at the same time, like Steve said, it's super familiar. Like, oh, I already do this. And I've had assignments like that in the past two, or they feel like spec work, but you're like, I'm not gonna do this, but I didn't feel that here, right? Cause I'm like, right, well, best case I just show you guys stuff you already know, since it's a group of like super talented demand marketers.

And so that process was really encouraging because as you go through it and you get the feedback, like kind of proving to the people interviewing you that you can do it, but you're also kind of reminding yourself that you can do it in the way that these like experts think about it. So yeah, I think you just have to kind of like dive right in and trust yourself. Yeah, that's great. The big nugget I pulled out of there was, you know, you started out with a little bit of doubt in there, but then through the conversations with the different members of the team, you saw them or peers, how do we continue to validate one another, learn off of one another and really grow your skillset?

You know, we're not here to say you're a bad marketer, you're not doing it right. We want you to succeed. We want you to join our company, help us continue to grow. So eliminating some of that, just from having others who are supporting you, it sounds like that was a really big validation for you.

Yeah, I think it's definitely about how you think not necessarily that every little thing you do or don't know, like there were some parts in mind where I just straight up I was like, I don't like with the data here or the way I have no idea, you know, and like hit a wall and that actually turned into a conversation. And I see now that I work here, that those are the exact types of conversations that we actually have some are doing the work. So that's really cool. That's expensive.

I really am in life. Well Liz, I love to hear your story about the interview process. Yeah, so for me, I have been following Chris for some time. And I think for me, like, you know, just being marketers were often very skeptical.

So when I first started listening to his content, I thought to myself, you know, like, this is really interesting. It's radical. It's really against the grain to, you know, what I've been taught in traditional demand gen. But then I started poking around, you know, my real time data and like the all the activities I was doing and all the concepts just started making sense.

Like things were being validated. You know, I was understanding the concepts behind his kind of ideologies. And one day I was listening to the podcast, he actually was like, you know, we're hiring aggressively, you know, we're growing the team. And what's crazy is it didn't cross my mind to apply.

Like it kind of was like, oh, okay, like that school, you know, you know, like I hope the company grows. I hope that they keep putting out great content. But for some reason, like there was no like light going off in my mind thinking that I was qualified for that role. So similar to Steve, you know, I had a recruiter reach out to me and that kind of like gave me that initial push to thinking like, oh my gosh, the stars are running for me now.

I just heard this on the podcast a few weeks ago. And now I'm talking to a recruiter about this opportunity, especially if you're like not actively looking or in the market, like to hear that brand, you know, just kind of fall into your lab, you're just like, you know, pinch me moment. So yeah, so I did feel like very intimidated at first. And I think really the biggest kind of change for me throughout this injury process was that all of the folks that I was talking to truly understood the demand gen role and function.

And like that adds so, so much flavor to the conversation. The interviews almost become more conversational versus like, hey, can we just like read through your interview? What was your experience here? You know, what did you do there?

What kind of, you know, our why did you drive? It was almost more of like a mindset interview in a way. And for me, that really made a huge difference. And I also think that just going through the interview process, I realized that no one here was, you know, here to poke holes or like find kind of like ways to ask trick questions, like malicious trick questions because everybody really respects like an additional perspective.

You know, and I think that's like what really has our team shining is that we all have different ideas. And that is what amplifies our kind of unified voice and gets us to the next step. So for me, that really took a lot of load off knowing that like there was no wrong answer. It was really me putting out my ideas, whether they're radical or not, they would be respected.

And you know, the worst that would happen is I get feedback, you know, and that's something as a marketer and as a person we should all strive for. So that really helped me take the edge off. Yeah, I really like that. There were two things in there that were super interesting.

The trick question, hear that all the time, you know, people are used to hearing like some of the crazy Google questions, how many marbles could fit in a thousand square feet? You know, things that's like, well, I don't know why that applies to my job, but sure. This happens all the time in interviews where one of the stages all provide a document and we'll say, you know, go through this. I'm curious to hear your thought process.

And they start digging in and they're looking for the trick or the the gotcha moment that's in there. I'm like, no, like don't overthink this. I'm really just looking to see how you were able to translate this document into a marketing strategy. I'm not trying to pull gotcha.

I just want to understand, are you are you able to do this? Because that's what the job is. It's not how many marbles can you fit in a room for a client. They don't care about that.

So really loved that you called out the trick question part, but also the, you know, the conversation not being an interview is really a real session that you're used to. And you have to sell yourself. But more of this, this intellectual back and forth where it's almost an educational conversation about, I love learning how you've all done this with marketing. You've come across this before and doing that kind of answer because that's what the day to day is like with a client where you're working with a peer who's a marketing leader in another company and they're coming across these types of things and they're not looking for you to grill them on their background.

They want to know, have you encountered this before? Like let's talk about this. So really like that you called that out as part of the interview as well. Yeah, absolutely.

I've had the just the funniest interview, like experiences, like IQ test, personality test, all this stuff. And you kind of start thinking yourself, you know, no disrespect to the folks that are running this and maybe it's working for them and all that stuff. But I personally haven't been able to correlate a successful response there to being successful in this role. So it's something that I appreciate so much that we're doing kind of again, the green practices when it comes to interviewing.

All right, Kevin, let's wrap it up with your story. Cool. Yeah, I mean, I think you guys hit on a lot of really good points. And I think for me, it's probably been one of the best interview processes I've ever gone through.

And I think one of the reasons is interviewing with people that get it, right? So it's like typically, you know, your hiring manager at another company may have some inkling of like the man gen, but maybe not strong. And I think that's, you know, one of the big differences because I've gone through interviews where, you know, it's a more like interrogation. And I think going back to like, you know, poking holes and trying to trip you up and all of this stuff, like it's a game.

And I think for me, that's like a big red flag for me for like culture. Like, do I want to work for a company like that? If they're going to treat me as like a candidate, they're going to treat me like that? What are they going to treat me like when I'm an employee?

So I think that's a really important one to think about. And I think the other thing that I experienced because I came in through a recruiter, the recruiting experience is really good. They really informed me. They really helped me kind of like understand the role, the dynamics.

And I think on top of that, I'd already, you know, been following Chris for quite a while, like then since he's in Boston and listening to the podcast and really going through a lot of the similar challenges that the company has with at the time. So then when I did get that chance to speak with Chris directly, it really was to your point, like more of like a mindset alignment and making sure that, you know, we're really aligned with the methodology, the approach. And I think we just kind of hit it off immediately because, you know, podcast or something that I've been passionate about trying to get other people to do that. And it's always hard because people are like, well, where's the data that supports, you know, the ROI?

And it's like, you know, we went off on that. And like the MQL hamster wheel that really like hit home because I had just done that, you know, probably like four months earlier, went through the whole process, showed the data, showed the results and saw basically what everybody else sees once they do the analysis. So we really hit it off there. And then, you know, I think the technical part was really interesting to me.

I had that with Sam who's really lucky to do that. And I gave me a lot of confidence because going through that, I'm like, all right, they're doing their diligence. They're really making sure that they're going through the day to day what you're going to be extracting in terms of insights and how are you going to think through that. So it's going to that mindset again, right?

So it's like, how do you take the data and act on it to improve results? So I think to me, that was a really great experience because it gave me more confidence in the process. And I think the other thing that I kind of noticed, you guys mentioned that too. It's like, as you go through that process, that the fear kind of like diminishes because like, you're just like, all right, this is more conversational.

You know, it's not like this stuffy, stilted conversation where they're trying to like, you know, throw obstacles at me and trip me up. It's really just like, you know, hey, yeah, this is a problem. Let's figure out how to solve that. And I think for me, I've always been a problem solver.

And that's why I've always liked to work with startups or early stage companies because there's so many challenges there. You know, you're creating a new category. And then the status quo, there's going to be a lot of non-believers. So it's like, how do you find your tribe of believers and really build a team that's going to help support each other and how can you learn from each other?

And I think that's like the stacking growth part to me is really cool where we have like our brain shares, you know, from the director level, the PMMs do the same thing. I just love that because there's so much information being shared. So that to me is like really just the key to finding the right company and the right fit. And then lastly, I did the presentation.

And I think it didn't feel like stepwork at all because I've had other companies where they're like, well, we need a full 12-month marketing plan with, you know, everything detailed and like, are you just going to take this and run with it? Probably. I didn't feel like that was refined. You know, it was like good enough.

Like there was enough there to dig into it, but it wasn't like, you know, overwhelmingly complex. And I think my biggest fear there was like I presented in a spreadsheet. And I was like, I wonder how they're going to like this? You know, like that's the way I think.

And I was like, you know, are they going to be upset that it's not like a slide format, you know, if I'm not sharing a deck, but you know, I walked through it with, you know, Chris, Judy, and Sam. And I was just like, you know, this is my approach is what I would do if I had this kind of money. And it just turned into a great, you know, very often in conversation. And I just felt so good about it after that call.

And shortly after I found out that I had like been, you know, given the role and I was like, let's go. And the rest is history. Yeah, and when you were telling that story, one of the things that really jumped out at me was like, my confidence built going through the interview process that I could do the job. But I think just as importantly, my confidence went way up that I wanted the job.

And that's something I think in a lot of other interview processes. And like Liz was talking about this too, or Steve, you know, where you're the only person that really knows your field. And so you feel like you had to get interviewed, but you know, they really have no idea what you do. And it's really hard then to like identify like, what does the actual day to day in this role look like, or I'm reporting to somebody with a sales background.

And so you're excited about it because it feels like a lot of responsibility and a big opportunity. And they believe in you. And then you're like, I don't actually know if I know what it is or if I want it. And that's, I don't think you mentioned that because at the same time, there's another company I'd been interviewing with.

And one of their projects was like, you know, basically building on a 12 month plan. And they gave me like their actual data. And after I went through that analysis, I was like, no, I don't want this job. Like this is not going to end well.

So like, I'm going to just cap it at that and say, thank you. And you know, I think sometimes that's good, right? Cause it's like, you know, all right, let me go through this process. Let's see if it's going to be a good fit.

So I do think, you know, having a very like robust interview process is helpful, especially with different people. And I really just love that like three step format too. Cause it just gave me a lot of time to kind of think cause it was over probably about a two week period. So it just kind of gave me time to kind of reflect too after each one.

But yeah, I mean, I think it was just probably one of the best executed interviews that I've like, you know, gone through and the communication was just always very timely. And I knew where I stood all, you know, the entire process. And I love that you brought up the fact that your final presentation was an Excel format. Cause I think that is just such a gem to anyone who's either going through the process or thinking it just, even not at Refine Labs, just in general, like that is super unique.

And something that I'm sure that stood out to, you know, to Chris and the entire team. So just thank you for sharing that. I love that for myself. You know, I think oftentimes we're like, oh, we have to do a presentation and let's start pulling out the slide.

Let's make sure we fit the mold of what they think we need to be right and taking initiative and being unique to yourself. It pays off regardless. Like say you didn't do well, say they didn't like the approach. You stay true to yourself.

You've tested something that you was unique to you. So I absolutely love that. And I think that should empower everybody, you know, that's thinking about going through the process. Yeah.

I mean, that's how I was comfortable, you know, because I worked with my previous CEO. And that's how we really shared ideas efficiently. So I was the most comfortable in that format. And, you know, I was still able to tell the story.

So I think it really comes down to the data and the story and combining that and then showing them your thought process and it goes back to the mindset and, you know, getting people to understand, demand, and deeply. That's really the key too. And, you know, I kind of feel like I've got like my people because we all understand that we're speaking the same language. And I think as a lot of marketers, you know, like I've been a lone wolf in a bunch of situations where it's like, you know, kind of tasked with building out the team.

And you don't have anybody. So I do think that kind of contributes to that in posture because it's like you don't have anybody to check your ideas with, right? It's like, okay, who am I going to ask? You know, it's like I would go on LinkedIn and see, you know, if I could get people to chime in.

And that was my feedback. Now it's like I've got, you know, slap, I can go to that channel and ask, you know, directors or performance marketing managers and answer a question, you know, within a few minutes. And that's just really powerful. Great points there.

It's two big takeaways, you know, for anyone listening, you know, the process really helps bring out your confidence as you go through those rounds and seeing, you know, is this something that I'm capable of doing and really helping to overcome some of that imposter syndrome? And it's also a great chance for you to see, am I ready for this role? Do I enjoy working at this company? So so many of us are so long and thought we have to impress the employer.

But especially in today's day and age with, you know, the great resignation and all that, you have a lot of power to figure out where you work and pick that employer. So you should equally be filling out, is this a role and going to enjoy not just for the first week, but you know, after first month, once the, you know, the honeymoon phase is over, so to speak, are these people I like to work with problems that I like to solve. So really love hearing all of your experience through that. So let's get into some takeaways for everyone.

So I'll kick us off first one that I think is after hearing you all speak to this, but apply for the things you're not 100% qualified for. So when we talked about that growth mindset and everything else very rarely, are people moving in laterally in their role, so to speak. So we look for our team to really be taking on new challenges and opportunity to continue to grow over time. So instead of feeling like you have to hit 100% of the boxes, you know, if you check the box or 50 to 75% of the items, go for it.

As you all mentioned, you know, if it doesn't work out, you learn something along the way and those areas that you can work on. But we're not looking for people who come in on day one and are, you know, overqualified for the role. We want people who want to be learning, want to continue to push the boundaries. So Liz, I'd love to hear, you know, what was some of your takeaways from us?

Yeah, I mean, for me, I think the thing that resonated the most is not really yourself out before even giving yourself a chance. Because I think oftentimes, you know, we all struggle for men, like men, women, everybody, but I think for women specifically, women often, you know, have self-doubt, they are less likely to apply to the job, less likely to go through with, you know, following up on the job, just because they feel that imposter syndrome and always debilitating sometimes. So for me, it's always been like, just go get it. You know, the worst that will happen is you got to know.

First of all, nobody will know about it. I mean, you know, of course, besides yourself and maybe the employer, but who cares at that point? You know, it's you did something, everybody gets rejected. It's just a part of life.

So 100% do not really yourself out before you take the chance. That's valuable right there. Kevin, what about you? What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you've got to really think deep about like what you want to do and who you want to work with, where you want to spend your time. Because I think, you know, we work so much of our day to day with people and you want to make sure that you're aligned, right? So it's like finding the right cultural fit. And I think the interview process, it's a great job of kind of giving you a glimpse ahead of time before you make that final decision.

Whereas other interviews I've gone through, I never had that, you know, that certain date. But I think here I really felt it. I was like, you know, this tracks with everything that, you know, we've been hearing of the podcast, what people from refined have been putting out on LinkedIn. And it all really, you know, kind of coalesced and made a lot of sense for me.

And I was like, you know, this is the right opportunity for me. So I think cultural fit, especially with, you know, the great resignation, you know, flexible work schedules, that's another thing for me, you know, having the ability to work different times, you know, not having to come into the city every day where I'm wasting, you know, an hour and a half each way, just sitting on the train. That to me, you know, I can do things, you know, that are more valuable with my time. And I think we're fine, completely understands that and respects that.

And it just makes me feel, you know, more connected to the organization because it feels like they care more about me. And I've never worked for a company that's like felt this caring, you know, it's like, that to me is key because you spend so much time in your career working somewhere and you want to feel rewarded and you want to feel like you're making a dent in the universe. And I think collectively we're trying to change the way people do marketing. And I think, you know, there's been some, you know, bad tactics and strategies over the years.

And it's like, and how do we overcome that and become more focused on the customer? How do we educate them more? And how do we be more helpful? And I think, you know, we want to make sure that we're providing value first and then we get a week so later.

And I think that's the big mindset shift too. So it's like getting away from capturing leads and really leaning into this new approach of, you know, educating, building trust and credibility and helping people. I love that. I love that.

So as we get into the final parts of this conversation, you know, when we're thinking about looking for companies or teams to identify them, physical, true, foster, the growth mindset, they understand that we're all learning as we go. Scott, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you came across Refine Labs or, you know, what you were looking for in a company that really enabled you to take this on. Yeah, I was following Chris on LinkedIn listening to the State of German demand podcast. So that was the big reason that I applied and I knew I was like, well, aligned with Chris's philosophy and everything that Refine Labs is that we're doing.

But I was obviously interviewing other places as well. And it wasn't really until like this, like next job that I was looking for, that I really had the confidence, I think, to ask like the hard-hitting questions and interviews, which I actually think came from some great advice listening to the podcast. Because I think we've all shared stories, right? Like, we're getting asked the hard questions.

But I'm guilty of kind of just laying up some softballs, right? Like, what's the culture like, you know, what makes you excited to wake up and go to work every day? And like the answer is like, it's the people, right? Everybody says the exact same thing.

But not really asking about like the goals and the numbers and what am I going to be graded on? Because like, that's ultimately like what's going to determine what the job feels like. And so and being really specific about it, like what are the revenue goals? What are the pipeline goals?

Like, you know, what are all the KPIs? How are they measured? Because I've definitely had companies where they didn't have a sense of that or they were like, we'll build it together, which sounded great. But it meant they had no clue.

And then it's like day one, you're walking into a burning house with squirt gun and they're like, so you're going to double pipeline this year? And you're just like, no, there's no way. You know, or they don't know their numbers. I had a company that I worked for that.

I was told we had a 57% close win rate on demo. It was actually 12. So, but we spent a lot of money working on that old model the first couple of months until we got down to it. So I think that's like my big advice and you'll find a lot out a lot about what matters when people share the numbers and obviously the culture and everything like that is important.

But I think you'll learn a lot about the culture by asking about the numbers. Because at the end of the day, it's a business. So when the numbers don't line up, culture change is pretty quick. That's interesting that you called out.

It sounds really good in theory, though. We want you to come in and make this big change for us. You're going to lead this all in everything. But the reality is, you know, it's if they're looking for you to be the magic solution, that's almost a red flag in a sense that they have no idea what they're doing.

And if you don't hit whatever that goal is that they don't even know how you're supposed to get to. And that's a standard you're being held to. That's a tough spot to be in. So I really like that you called that one out.

Yeah. Yeah. And for anybody listening, if you only make that mistake four times, you're doing better than me. So don't be hard at yourself.

We'll have it. All right, Steve, I'd love to hear from you on this. I'm glad I went after Scott because yeah, I don't know if I made the mistake four times, but I definitely made it a couple of times. I've just not asking enough hard-hitting questions in the interview.

And maybe that's just like, times are definitely different now, but I feel like there's still no excuse for it. Of me not asking, like, I have a preferred work environment that I like to be in, a preferred type of leader. And yeah, definitely have had a bad experience where I showed up that first like week and was like, Oh man, this was not what I thought I was signing up for. And you know, then having to work through that, which is what nobody wants.

So I think it definitely went echo what Scott said about just asking a lot of questions and feeling like that's OK, right? And especially as it pertains to the growth mindset. I mean, I was lucky I had a great, a former boss who gave me this quote that he basically was making this thing was, it's OK to fail. It's absolutely OK to do that.

And let's just try to do it fast and then make sure we don't make that mistake again. So I learned that on the job, but I think that's something I'm taking with me to future jobs because I do have a growth mindset and I want the companies I work to have that same alignment. So, you know, it's just a perfect example of like, Hey, this is my philosophy on mistakes. What's the company stance on that?

And you're just, you'd be surprised if you get a fluffy answer and the same goes for like, education of like, how am I learning opportunities my idea? You know, if they just rattle off, Oh, yeah, we have like learning development course. Read into that ask questions because if that's not enough for you, it's on you to figure that out and determine if that's a good fit or not. I'm actually just want to finish on like at the same point, like Kevin, you made a really good point earlier about being yourself, your authentic self in the interview.

And that's one, I mean, that's that's how we want to show up because if they don't like our authentic selves, it's probably not a fit you don't want to work there. But at the same time, it can also help them better understand you and then you can also pull that out from your interviewers from the team. And then you guys together will figure out like, do you have that match? If I love how you brought up the fact of like building your confidence also through like mentors and other folks in your career, like having a good boss is absolutely pivotal when it comes to like overcoming imposter syndrome and just the way that you face it.

Because I think like a common thread that we've all expressed is that we've all faced it. But I think where it gets scary and some folks have this is when it's debilitating, right? So you can overcome it no matter how many times you prove yourself. And that's a really scary place to be.

So I think surrounding yourself early on in your career with mentors, friends, supporters, you know, people that really encourage you to step outside your comfort zone and tell you that you can do things and that it's okay to fail. For me, that was the biggest thing in my whole career is that I was never held back by people. Like I've never been told like, yeah, I mean, of course we've all had that boss that said like, hey, you know, you're not good enough or maybe implied it maybe. But you know, having that support system, whether it's a mentor, whether it's close friends, but are not even in the same industry, you know, at the same, you know, we all go through life, you know, similar scenarios and things like that and have takeaways.

So having that support system, I think is absolutely integral in like handling imposter syndrome and understanding the cycle versus getting debilitated by it. Yeah, that's a big thing right there. The history of me is I'm thinking back to growing up the people that I was surrounded by. You know, that old quote, the average of the five people you're surrounded yourself with.

I am at this point in my life well past anything that I ever thought I would go was going to achieve in terms of income in terms of my roles because of what I grew up around and the types of jobs that people were holding. I changed my environment that people I surround myself with. And now I mean, look at this group that we got right here, so to speak, but it's unbelievable how much of a difference that does make lives when you do surround yourself with those types of people. Cool.

Well, this was a this was a fun conversation with everyone. One last thing kind of drawing back to Steve, like you coming back to is, you know, we spoke a lot about today imposter syndrome, growth mindset, as I've been taking some notes on this, I'm seeing very clear correlations between if you have imposter syndrome, you probably have a growth mindset. If you are not facing imposter syndrome, you probably got to fix mindset, you know, and you're also stuck in where you're at. So be okay, having this imposter syndrome means you're challenging yourself to try new things to to really explore and push the boundaries.

So I wouldn't view it as a is a bad thing. So to speak, you know, it's, you know, people come into an interview and they're like, Oh, tell me a negative thing about yourself. They're like, I'm passionate. You're like, be proud of that.

You know, that means that you're challenging yourself and you want to really push those boundaries. So was a was fun to have this conversation. I know there were there were five of us here today. We have more people raise their hand from refine labs to join this conversation.

We could have fitness in this podcast. So goes to show, you know, it's not just us. They feel like a lot of people on the steam have also experienced this. So we've we've said it a lot here, Chris talked about all the time, but we genuinely mean it.

We are continuing to grow. We have a number of open positions. If you're on the fence about joining us, if you feel like you're not quite sure if you're fit for the role, shoot on us a DM on LinkedIn, send us an email, whatever you want. We'd love to have just an informal chat about your share experience, talk about the company, answer any of the tough questions that's gotten Steve like to ask and their questions.

But we've all been there and we absolutely want you all to join the team if it makes sense. So please don't hesitate to reach out. But I guess before we wrap, any of you have any final parting questions, thoughts for the listeners? Thanks to that perfect.

Sam, if you're on the fence, like with any opportunity you're considering, I think there's no better way to test your metal than to actually just go for it and put yourself in that position. But I also want to reiterate, yeah, happy to talk with anyone and everyone who has a posture, so we're just curious about working at Refine lives. Yeah, I'd really the same thing. Just go for it.

I think we as you brought up an awesome point about mentors and I kind of stumbled into my first mentor. But then after that, like I actually had to kind of ask them, I didn't ask like, well, you'd be my mentor. But like, you know, people like to talk about what they know about. So you can reach out to people and they'll have those conversations with you.

And so I think that like just going for it, whether it's applying for the job or trying to develop that relationship with somebody you can learn from or put yourself in an experience where you might feel like an imposter, if you're not right now, just go for it. Love it. Well, this has been another sort of the barking movement. Appreciate you all listening.

Thank you to our fine labs colleagues who have joined us a conversation today. And that will do it. So appreciate your time. Hope everyone has a rest of your day.