Hi welcome to classical stuff you should know a podcast about classical education old books philosophy sometimes maybe some art paintings couple of doors couple of doors and From three guys who love it? My name is Graham Donaldson, and I'm joined with my colleagues and partners in crime crime. It's crime That's the word you're looking for I guess mr. Thomas Fletcher, Maggie.
Hi and mr. Arthur Young Hanenburg and today while I was looking at talking to AJ But what he was gonna be doing the episode on it hardly we're doing the old Robin Bloom's movie hook because In hook there is one of the characters name is youth of fro who was the leader of the lost boys until Robin Lembs came back and learned how to throw have a food fight again bangerang Yep, so you throw Well done didn't have a cool skateboard thing cool skateboard thing was cool I was such a that skateboard thing and the one in ten-agent Ninja Turtles Remember that they'd be like walking to the foot clubhouse and they were all skateboard down stuff Casey Yeah, yeah, he was April O'Neill did they said bangerang right? That's what they said in hook bangerang Yeah, and they had the food fight with the colorful food. Yep.
Yeah, and then they had a chance of the pirates hook hook give him the hook That's right. Yeah, that's a good movie. What blows my mind is that it was Dustin Hoffman who played hook. Isn't that crazy?
He did a good job. He did do it because it doesn't look like him Yeah, we think of Dustin Hoffman. You don't think of like a scary pirate. You think like the dude from the graduate.
Yeah, exactly or I mean the guy from outbreak in fairness. He wasn't that scary fair. He wore a big wig. Yeah.
Yeah, that's good for kids We guys, but all right, we're talking Socrates. Yeah, they might are talking you have row So you throw is one of the dialogues of Plato I read a few of them in preparation for a plenary talk that I did last week which you can find either on our patreon if you Remember or at the Veritas Academy web YouTube YouTube page. There's a few live streams. It's one of the live streams from last week So you don't remember just go out.
Let's go get on the YouTube. Yeah, so no, pay past money and watch it that way There's other stuff on the patreon. Thank you. There you can get your hands on there's the support us But yeah, if you want to see that you can go you can go and check it out there So I read this one and I read me know really me know was the one I was hoping would pay off because the question for me You know is can virtue be taught right is there any way to give virtue to kids and those answers?
No, no, I'm not really It's all it's all just a gift to gods and either you're lucky You're not and part of his reasoning is the kids would the kids of virtuous men would therefore be virtuous if you could be taught Like you see all these really virtuous awesome men and then their kids are just worthless sacks and nothing and so he's like Well, that is a pretty big indicator that doesn't really work And you don't see a lot of teachers out there who teach virtue, right? You see a lot of math teachers and a lot of science teachers, but not a lot of virtue teachers And so somehow we're not really getting it, but does he find his dad at the end? Oh, you know Is he looking for his dad? Yeah, finding me know.
Oh my god. Oh my word. Oh, I hate this. Oh One yep nailed it.
Oh My word, okay, so I read you throw and you the throw free podcast People get what they want to do whatever we want. Yes, I guess that's been the deal for two and It's been five years longer than that. I think I was in 2016. Oh, look it up.
No lies I'll look it up. I think the first one's not 2016 First posted it on the blog, which I don't want to on the blog. It was Facebook. Yeah, okay That's where you that's where it was first posted or I'm aware of it.
That's where that was Yeah, but no, that was I put on there. I think also, but that we didn't make that podcast. That was the poor teachers all in Exociety that's a whole other thing and I'm looking like when it was Sorry, no one cares about this before it was like a podcast feed you posted on Google Drive Yeah downloaded by link and that link is on the veritas baseball. Yeah, I think that's what how it was distributed was just through there How's isn't how we still distributed?
Not part of the technical team for the podcast. All right, so episode one was 2017 September 17 2017 five years So all except September all right, so the there's some cool dialogues play. Oh, there's one I'm currently reading called apology where it's it's Socrates sort of defending himself in front of the court before he will eventually be Killed for his you know menacing threatening philosophical ways. So I read read through a little bit of that this credo where he Critos where he's in jail and creoles like hey, man.
I'm here to bail you out. I've read credo before I don't know if I've read I think I've read all of apology, but it's been a little while so I'll read him back over it Anyway, this one is actually as he stands in line to go into jail he runs it into court in the court Yes, eventually to jail but into court to sort of defend himself and he's like yeah, I don't know They're gonna bring charges against me. I don't know how it's gonna go I'm really nervous about it and you throws like I'm here to do some business of my own Oh, what are you up to and you throws doing a thing? So now I know Graham you know the scenario.
Yes. Let's see it Here we go. Yo. Here we go.
Yo. Say what's Oh my gosh That's okay. Is there any way to like oh, I'm sorry. You know I tried called quest fans Actually the last I was really good.
Yeah. Yeah, we slept a year ago. Anyway, so Thomas. Yeah, your dad.
Okay He's a wealthy man. Okay. He's got some servants and some workers and one poor worker like he's just a groundskeeper worker He gets really hammered one night and then he gets in a fight with one of your house staff Let's say that he's like a house janitor Okay, sweet stuff after you guys and kills him kills the guy cuts his throat. Mm-hmm.
Your dad catches this guy Chases him catches him puts him in chains and says I got to figure out what to do with this joker, right? You guys looking out in the boonies, right? There's not a whole lot of people near to catch what's going on So he ties that guy up throws him in the ditch and then sends a messenger to go ask the priest of the local parish What he should do? Okay, while he is waiting for that message to return the guy in the ditch dies Oh, so the murderer kicks it.
Yes, and your dad says well Right problem solved itself. What do you do? You denounce your father? Do you stay where you are?
Do you kind of let it go? I would have announced my father. It seems like I mean, I don't know the circumstances of the second person dying, but He was just a smosier. He was cold.
He was hungry. He was in chains. Nobody was tending to him in the ditch Maybe there's only a weird position. Yeah, I'm all around.
Yeah, I don't see why there'd be more that needs to happen So there was my servant was killed and then the person who did that action is now dead also So there's not really I mean, I don't know if you're trying to get at like that sort of needs to be replaced That first person needs to be replaced, but that doesn't seem quite right The wrong thing happened and then someone was punished and then that's kind of the end of it Thomas and I thought you were pious I thought he was too. I'm not I'm no so this is what has happened to Yufafro his dad is in that position and Yufafafro has come to court in a standing Next to Socrates and lying which nobody wants to do exactly and he's like I'm here to denounce my dad as a murderer because To prosecute him in front of the court because he has committed a murder even though that guy was a murderer He committed a murder by letting him rot in the ground and not tending them and not taking care of him So he's here to denounce his dad and Socrates is like holy cats That's incredible. You are willing to and we don't necessarily have the same Compunctions familial compunctions that they did back in that society. You never turn in your dad Like that's that is a thing but also okay if you if someone in your family was murdered It was up to you to bring that person to the court You wouldn't like if your family did the murder Like you could be you feel bad about it But you're not going to be the one going to court to try your dad right like bringing the court Like you're gonna be standing in the inside the courtroom being like you killed him That's that should be the family of the dead servant right doing that yeah So it's real strange It's kind of way out of the ordinary that Yufafro is doing this and Socrates is like oh boy You have such a lock on what is good and pious and holy right face of the gods that you are willing to bring your own father to trial for this Yeah, because Yufafro says the reason he does is because he says it's it's out of his party He's a pious man.
He's a pious man and he's a bit of a diviner He kind of tells future and stuff and so you know they're used to him sort of being around court and doing his thing with the gods and says I gotta keep up my reputation I gotta do this thing my dad's gotta you know he's gotta pay for this right and so Socrates is like you must know something I don't about what piety is to feel this strongly about it I feel this strongly and I have this much of a lock on it So would you please like I am here to learn and I am here under accusation of impiety myself right being a Neologist coming up with new gods and preaching against the old gods and causing all kinds of trouble and corrupting youth and that's what I'm here for So it'd be great if you could tell me what piety is right and then that way when they ask me I can just say I'm a disciple of yours And if they're okay with you yes, then they have to be okay with me. It's like a get out of jail for your car It's good and Socrates is like I am on board. So tell me in youth of rose defense though He did say I know a lot about the gods more than other people. Oh, yeah It's his whole thing.
So Socrates takes his side off the bat. So he agrees that no throws pious You said that's a that's a pretty extreme step, but you know I don't yeah I was like yes, I do which means how I can teach it to you So it's like X because everything you're saying you think that Socrates is gonna wreck you throw Yes, I mean that's what Socrates does It's something that I mean and you actually get the story of how Socrates has become the wise man that he is in the apology at the beginning of the Apology. I'm sure I don't think we have Well a quick story on the off chance that I never do the apology is that he went to a friend of his went to the oracle and said Who is the wisest man and the oracle said Socrates and Socrates is like that is a load of hogwash That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I need to go find somebody, but it's also the oracle He's yeah, and so he's like I'm gonna prove that oracle wrong So I go find someone that is wiser than me and then I will take them to the oracle be like look oracle This guy he is wiser than me and so he goes looks and he goes to the wise man He starts asking questions and he finds out they don't know what they think they know not anymore So then he tries the the poets and he's like poets aren't getting to talk about their own poetry intelligently Right some sort of passion or something and he's like and then went to the artisans And the artisans actually fared pretty well They knew a lot of stuff I didn't about like metal and horses and that sort of stuff But still were wise they weren't wiser than me and so I couldn't find people and so I made up my mission to go and prove that these Like reputed wise people were not wise asking a bunch of questions and every time I do I would announce them It's not wise and then make an enemy and so they all hate me and that's kind of my lot in life And so this is who he is right so he's like great you throw you're gonna tell me stuff You're gonna teach me what pidey is I'm so excited.
What is pidey? By the way, I have a quote from you for about how awesome he is He's like it's the best of you the throw and that which distinguishes him Socrates from other men is his exact knowledge of all such matters What should I good what should I be good for without it? So he he's pretty full of them? Yes Now Socrates in the apology also has and you throw seems to know about it that Socrates hears of hears voices Or is in some sort of like communication with a demi urge This is the thing that you just said that you throw can see the future or do you know no no?
What do you say so I mean that comes up in the apologies that is that Socrates says that he's always had this he's always Heard he's always heard the voice of the demi urge no because you throw makes makes reference to it He's like oh yeah, you've got that you've got that thing where you hear voices It's like I kind of dabble in new gun God voices myself, but maybe we do need to do an episode in the apology I'm remembering it incorrectly. I don't remember that and you throw that I just miss it I it's it's more a big deal in the apology where Socrates says I went to the or the oracle said that I'm the wisest person I'm only the wisest person because I know I'm not the wisest person right and he says I know what I don't yes But I've always been led by Basically this divine voice that has always inspired me to want to go seek the troop and good and then everyone's like Sounds super weird Socrates. Maybe we'll have to do an episode. Yeah, sure.
I mean there's a turns out there's a whole bunch of dialogues We do we can do a bunch of them. Okay, so he says please define what piousness is what is piety and youth for us as well It's it is prosecuting anyone who's guilty of murder sacrilege or of any similar crime whether he be your father or mother or whoever he may be That makes no difference and not to prosecute them is impiety by way of example Zeus ousted chronos because chronos was eaten as Dan kids So there's an example of piety zeus is that right? Yeah? Zeus ousted his father chronos because chronos was eating all the children and he's like that can't happen get rid of you And he's like that is our example of piety prosecute murders.
All right, do you have any feelings about that definition of I've asked Maggie because you already know The answer to this I look forward to showing off my ignorance for the next 15 minutes. So I hope listener you quite enjoy this as much as I don't No, I don't know if we'll get into this, but some part of piety is is like a respect for Respect for parents again Aneas is like the model of piety and it's like his care for his father that gets lifted up don't I mean that won't come up obviously But so I'm having trouble here that he's calling it piety as opposed to justice And I don't know if that matters or comes up. It does come up. Oh, yeah, you're like It feels like the thing he's pointing pointing to is something different than what piety is that's my main pushback But he's probably saying something true that if a law is an absolute law it should probably be Implemented absolutely regardless of who that person is but in some way it seems like you're a pro justice and impious by applying it to your father Okay, that's some level they respect for the person you like you know It's responsible for you being in the world seems like you're disrespecting him in some way So one thing you did naturally was you abstracted it into a principle right apply apply laws justly right He didn't say that he said piety is prosecuting anyone who is guilty of murder sacrilege or any similar crime or there are other crimes That he's not including that probably should be well There's and not just like I have to prosecute someone right pious that sounds silly right and not to prosecute them as impiety Like that seems like a weird thing to say and suck at TCS was like man There are many other pious acts besides prosecuting murderers Is there any other definition you can give me that isn't just murder prosecution right and says all right fine Here's a better definition piety is what is dear to the gods and impiety is that which is not dear to the gods?
Okay, any problems with that? No, that's solid. That's good. I'm not obviously I like it the problem is then determining what are those things that are dear to the gods and what are those things that are not Dear to the gods and if we can't know those things or if they are Yeah, if we can't know those things then it's a poly then it's a principle that means nothing.
Yeah Is that yeah, that's a piece of it the other pieces that the gods fight right a great point I love the Trojans and yep We're going to make sense really I don't know It's not far off with the Point is that the gods fight stuff there's disagreement among the there's definitely Disagreement like some of them want one thing and some of them want the other and they don't disagree about basic stuff It's solvable like how long is this stick like if we had a disagreement about that we could just go measure it Right, honestly, I have no idea why that particular passage is in this dialogue But he's pointing out that that's not a thing people generally fight about is something that's easily solved like how many ducks are there? Is it actually just I can't the duck isn't but like the whole paragraph about like that is what we fight about we fight about Things that are good or evil or right or wrong and that's what the gods fight about too, right? So what you're doing in prosecuting your father might be enjoyed by one God right and hated by another God, right? Chronos got asked by Zeus.
I don't think he wanted to be sure corona's was a God also Coronos was also a God right yes, and so he says so how can how can that be pious right what you're doing could be either one? And he said you the first like yeah, but all of them agree about prosecuting murderers Because some gods murder also or like or like Ares loves yeah, yeah, yeah, and so Socrates says yeah granted Nobody argues that murderers should be punished but they do argue about their guilt right? How can you prove to the gods like how can you prove that all the gods approve of the the actor that you are doing right? That your dad is actually guilty, right?
If you can if you can I will praise you forever like prove me this one thing and I'm on board you the fro you're so smart You the fro just says okay Well, actually this is I think Socrates offers this refinement he says all right never mind Maybe we should just give another definition what all the gods hate But all the gods hate is impious what all of them love is pious or holy and what some of them love and others hate is neither Or both okay, okay Then the clear problem is your middle category, right? Yeah, yeah, um, it's funny that they don't actually address that difficulty as much I mean this is again This is one thing I love about Plato is where where our modern minds are like, oh, yes, but here's some vaguely Plato sometimes Just doesn't he doesn't even dress it. He's any one. Yeah, they're just talking There's nothing else going on in Socrates wants to change the subject or talk about something else I that's one thing I absolutely love about reading Plato is the problem I see and I'm like, oh, that's a fallacy right never even gets Disguster um He says all right what I would like to hear is Our pious things love because they are holy or are they holy because they are loved and that's the use of ro dilemma, right?
Like that's the well I understand that as the core of the dialogue. Maybe that's not the idea already read this one and I'm just reaching the choir here I read it my freshman. It was my first philosophy class in undergrad was reading ethephro. So it's been a very very long time So yes, I'm all I remember is that as the thing tied to ethephro, okay So what do you think is it love because it's holy or is it holy because it's loved?
Uh, and you can address that from both modern time And this is for both of you guys you can address that for both modern time and the gods of the ancient ancient Greece And I'm gonna look really fast as you guys discuss in that drawer over there And see if I can't find the blind assertion bell, I feel like I'm so excited Yeah, just everything I've said so far should you should bring it for that It feels like in the in the classical context in the context where this dialogue is happening It has to be that there is a true thing that the gods are agreeing with not because they Like it or not because it's true outside of them. Yeah, I mean, that's Socrates big Push to that he always wants to find he's he always wants to get to the true good thing that is true and good in and of itself And he wants to know it so I would say that that the thing is I guess in that sense He would say it's a lot of because it's holy right. Yes. Give me like at least a couple of rings just a beginning of this conversation I don't know I feel like you're doing a pretty good job.
Thanks much. Appreciate it. Okay, I was going to search him What you just saying that maybe that's my question Um, so do you guys know that it's that it's love because it's holy that there are things that are just good in that sort of That's Socrates big pushes. He wants to find the good.
He wants to be able to To that there is an objective good thing that is that is lovable and if the gods love it So should we like it because it is because it's a holy thing So it's love because it's holy okay, right? So it's love because it is holy not opposed to it's holy because it's loved where then we live in a world where we're just sort of We're thrust back and forth between the arbitrary whims of the gods that whatever they love ends up being the great thing Okay, and it can change all the time. We're all screwed up I think that question changes now if we're talking about modern day We'll get there at the very end kind of discuss how all of this applies to current theology, right? So he says look is a thing visible because it's seen or seen because it's visible And he kind of goes into these weird examples that are sort of hard to understand But the essence of it is this that a when you find yourself in a state that state implies previous action So if I'm in the state of being loved it is because I was holy, right or worth loving I'm not worth loving because I have been loved right it doesn't work backwards.
It's not the other way around and so he says I am I'm in a state of suffering because I have suffered right I am in a state of piety because I have like because I'm worth I'm I'm loved because I'm worth loving not worth loving because I was originally loved And so there's this sort of circular thing and it gets confusing and then you throw it's like, well dang it You're making my arguments run away from me. I'm getting all confused It's kind of frustrating with what's happening and and he kind of blames it on Socrates And he's like look man, I get you like I just this is a problem that I cause and I wish I didn't do it But maybe we'll look at it a different way, right? We've done this before like we're getting confused. How about we abstract a little bit and he also does this in I don't clear it up.
Well, I mean, maybe not abstract but like step back, right? Maybe look at it in context kind of what he does in He doesn't answer any of these questions ever. So it's not going to work. We know that It's what he does in the republic, right?
Where he's like, I want to know what justice is But we're getting confused as we talk about a single person. Why don't we talk about an entire society? And so he tries to step back a little bit and he says, okay, so What part why do why not look at piety as part of its category, right? What does piety have to do with justice, right?
Is everything just pious or is everything pious? Just the second one. Okay, piety is a subset of justice. So justice is the larger category.
Yes, right? Okay, great. And he actually has to go into like you got that question right away. You thought it's not I'm not sure what you're talking about and he's like, okay I'll give you an example of something with a subcategory of another category, right?
And so he says what part of justice is piety like if we're looking at justice as a huge category What piece of that is piety, right? Yeah, I don't know how to answer that question But it's a hard question. Justice for the gods or justice and divine things. It's piety is that part of justice that attends the gods.
Yeah, so justice in regards to the divine and Socrates so giving the gods with the road kind of yeah, yeah Socrates says what do you mean by attention? Like what you mean that we attend to the god? What kind of attention is it the kind of attention that a horse trainer gives to horses or that an Ox herd gives to oxes or like respect it's a dog trainer gives to dogs like what are we yeah? Okay, your answer is exactly what you throw said is it's the kind of attention that servants show their master case, right?
You follow what the gods prefer I guess in this case, right? Yeah follow the gods prefer and Socrates says okay So what what work does this help accomplish right if you are serving your masters Right because they do serve the gods like what is what is the work that we are doing right? Is this like an art that ministers to a ship builder because a ship builder has a result right? So if I'm ministering to a ship builder, I'm helping him to build a ship or if I'm doing medicine the goal is health So what what is the fair work that the gods are doing that by the help of our administration?
Is it victory and war like what are we helping them get done coherent civilization people living together peacefully? The possibility of cooperation between people sweet weather sweet weather sure um So you throw just says all right heck with it I'm just gonna give you a new definition of piety Okay, how about this one? Holiness is learning how to please the gods in word and deed by prayers and sacrifices It misses so then why is he prosecuting his father because it's not unless he's sacrificing his father But it seems it seems like it's that same problem of a limited definition to a broader situation Holiness doesn't necessarily only involve prayers and sacrifice that limits it to a religious realm as opposed to It says also how to please the gods and word indeed if that's pretty broad And it would please the gods to bring is it word indeed through prayer and sacrifice or is it I think it's comma It's two separate things word indeed and prayers and sacrifices Uh, you still have the same problem of disagreement, I guess, but I don't hate this definition Yeah, it certainly seems like it's they're making progress, right, right? Um, and so sakti says so piety is the science of praying and sacrificing So I actually think he reduces the definition a little to that um He says it's it's a science of asking and giving to the gods Like we ask for things and we give them things like we pray and we sacrifice and you first like nailed it That's it.
I think we got it So sakti's like so essentially us doing business with the gods, right? He's like we're really getting the better deal on that one like clearly they don't really need much from us And we are asking things from them like what are we giving them that they really want? Some like burnt fat Sweet smelly meat right and we get from them all kinds of stuff like we are definitely getting getting one over on the gods in this In this deal. What have you never wanted barbecue?
Mm-hmm, grammar is a great point. That's fair enough He says so what do what do we give them that they need that they benefit from like what is it that we give the gods that they need? I mean like what I'll probably find without honor. It's still the Apollo and euthofro says that they don't get any benefit from our gifts Like wow we give them gods don't really need them Yeah, and so sakti's like so what are we actually like what are we giving them?
He says tributes of honor and sakti says and we're back where we started and basically that Like is it love because it's worthy of loving like that that sort of thing Um and euthofro eventually just kind of says I have to go down. Is it really out? Yeah, it's with the youth of our saying, you know, I got some business I got to take care of up here It's it's really funny because sakti says where we're back once again to the thing like it doesn't benefit them But so it's so it's dear to them that they like it but it's also not dear to them at the same time So it's if you said pities, what's a dear to the gods? Well, it's not dear to them because they don't really need it but it is dear to them because they want it like you're confusing me man And you just says look man, I got I've got other things to do.
I'm not gonna leave now Um bye and that's the end of the dialogue. Wonderful. So they don't actually solve it kind of the same I mean like me know comes to a conclusion, but me knows conclusion is no you can't teach piety and this one is Who knows the piety is I have no idea. That's not helpful.
All right, so what's gonna come up as this? What are you gonna talk about with your kids? I have a few questions, but they're getting at he's getting like sakritis is always hinting at the fact that Everything is should all these like with piety being a subset of virtue And then virtue virtues a subset of something like sakritis is always hinting that things are supposed to build up to The good that there's a there's one singularity There's like this one good from which all the goods come from and knowing that good is the business of The philosophical man the business of the human being is to seek after and know the good And sakritis is doing is always going to the people who say I'm an expert in an example of good piety and sakritis is saying I'm working backwards so that so I can see that you're a disciple of the category of good So that you can do the you can do the it's like a token type thing right like if if piety is I don't know what piece you have a if piety is a token of the type of good help me understand the type of good So that I too can partake in the token and all the people who are experts on the token are like I gotta go sakritis so you're so free of annoying so but this is this but so I think the takeaway is that is that through the all of the sakritis dialogue sakritis gets to the point of we and we We have a category that we call good that we want to know and knowing it is like the key Part of being a human or a good human being a happy human being and nobody flippin knows it And nobody everybody who says they know it No, it doesn't and sakritis wants to know it and that's basically says in his apology is that he is spending his whole life trying to find the good Okay, that's that's the takeaway. All right.
So you say piety is what a token of the type and the type is good Um, but what part of good is that is I'm gonna get I think you're getting close to it when you're saying that it is the justice Render the gods, right? Um, it is giving the gods what they are owed Um, it is having is having right relationship with the gods is having right relationship with one's family For example, now the irony is that you throw is like condemning his father to death or is prosecuting his father for murder while claiming To be pious when he's doing what is sensibly a pretty impious thing is like It's not that his dad was the one that got drunk and caught a throat his dad was trying to do the right thing and then there was this You know care system sort of situation where you know should be investigated and looked at but it wasn't like Foming at the mouth bloodthirsty murder by euthrophoreses is like the opportunity to So showcases piety and Socrates is calling the s on it. Yeah, so I think calling piety is like the just as a subset of justice is getting Is getting to the right answer? Okay, so I'm gonna throw a few questions at you.
Okay, is is what and I'm gonna move it to modern So if you're if you're new to the podcast all three of us are christian, um, we do come from a christian bent We try to like it's gonna kind of color where we come from or all believers if you aren't into that That's okay. Stick around disagree with us throw things at your radio whatever you want to do. That's fine. We'll get you eventually Yeah Or or at least you'll have more ammo for oh, yeah Just eradicating us on reddit or whatever you want to do so so is are the things that god loves good because he loves them Or does he love them because they are good?
Yeah, this is an interesting thing because um what does we love because christ first loved us? I Are we Were we so lovable and that's why god loved us god looks at us. He's like, oh, yeah They're pretty sweet. I gotta go save them Um, I mean that's that's even more specific I mean the question is one of the good Is it the good because god created it that way or is is the good something separate and abstracted from god It's not something separate.
It is and it is god's nature. Right. Yeah, I don't uh, this is an annoying answer So please, uh, soccer soccer tease this answer, but uh, I don't think there's a meaningful distinction between the two So in in youth of row in the youth of row dilemma posing this question It's that there's some preceding existence that then places an obligation on the gods to then love that good thing Right, but then if the god who created everything is the same god who is being honored with piety There's no distinction there between who establishes the good things as good and who loves those good things So I don't I don't see what we gain by posing that question It's like I don't I don't see what we're pulling out of it I think the big question is is there something outside of god that he's beholden to and I think that's the that's a dangerous one I think most most modern theologians would agree with you guys that that goodness is identical with god's nature He creates good things because he is good and he is good because he's god, right? Goodness is his nature his nature is goodness Yeah, so it's it's sort of all reaching back to this saying like at that point god and good become kind of the same thing He could have established something else as good initially I guess I don't know if this is kind of what you're getting at but like and then that establishment put some kind of obligation on himself in the future But that that time discussion doesn't really mean well And he's never obligated because at any point he could he established it and if and continuously well as it's what I mean So and that's what I mean, so things could different things could be good That's the problem you were posing before but we would not be aware of that time wherein the bad is good and the good is bad This is we always make fun of ourselves We wouldn't know so I just don't I don't see a difference between God loving the thing and him establishing that thing is good that those both are happening together Yeah, okay, here's here's a harder one.
Can we offer anything to God? Yeah, praise honor, but does he need it? No, no, God is sufficient I mean, this is kind of the mystery of the Trinity the three-in-one, but yeah, it doesn't need it but But it is still a thing we can offer him. So I don't know so but then at that point and this is one of my big conundances It seems like it's just for us.
He doesn't need it. Especially if he's already supremely happy How can you get more happy than happy? There are different levels of infinity there's a there are some infinities less than other infinities that sounds crazy It's true. I mean infinity minus one is still infinity, but it's still uh someone's anyway Like there are there can be different types of infinity, which is not a helpful discussion Is so is God is God more types of infinities?
So AJ is God more happy when you Do something that is? Praise worthy and pious when you do when you honor him is he more happy than he was yesterday Are you implying that he is at any point less happy than perfectly happy? Yeah, I guess that's my question No, it's well, I guess it's it's if I can make him more happy than he is not fully happy Um unless the nature of happiness is not something that's like It's like something that can grow but can't shrink So, okay, let me um if you had uh so you see your coffee cup of my coffee cup Yeah, are they different sizes? Sure.
Okay. If I filled my coffee cup to 100 full is it 100 full of coffee? Yeah, okay And then if I put it into your coffee cup and fill it would it be 100 full of coffee? No, no, I would have to put more coffee in your coffee cup, but both cups can be 100 full Yep So I guess that's my question is like can God be 100 happy and then when you do something better?
It like expands his happiness and then he's still 100 happy, but he's more happy It would imply that there's a time at which I mean like there's a vessel larger than his happiness that he would then need to fill Yeah, I don't think I don't think this works as an analogy or it's an infinite vessel that with infinite capacity What are we doing right now? This is straight to a conversation? Um, I've one had like three hours of sleep so I'm on board Again, these are the problems that of Yeah, I'm trying to talk about an infinite being with our finite examples that will fall apart regardless But again, the disconnect I'm still having is that you can still offer somewhat something to someone who doesn't need it And it's still giving them something whether they need it or not they still can receive that My sweet three-year-old paints pictures for me. I don't need pictures I love receiving them but that there implies a lack God already owns all those things Yeah, right.
You you don't have those pictures before you could give them to you I'm saying I didn't have a lack of picture before receiving one, but well, yeah, you did you just didn't know it I just didn't know I guess yeah, uh, and it's not really about the I don't know And if you're becoming more happy than you were would imply that you weren't supremely happy I'm always supremely happy. I don't understand your distinction Yeah, so that this is a hard one right. What is it exactly that we offer God when we do things that Quote, I'll please him. I still think it would be some form of honor reverence respect Whatever word you want to use for that.
Um, I guess what I mean is not like what are what are the things we offer But what tangibly do we offer God that he doesn't already have I think the answer to that is nothing Isn't that what you're and that's so why do them? Why did he ask us to wait? Is it only for us can't I withhold God my Respect sure so then he there is something that God doesn't have and that can be the disrespectful man's love So he has a lack he has so God is incomplete with that love Ted doesn't love God and God does not have Ted's love So in this in this instance does Ted have a veto over God's happiness? Um, no because God can still be happy without Ted.
Okay. So what is it that Ted is really doing to anyone other than himself? God's happiness plus Ted he gets Ted So he does lack Ted. Yeah, so if he lacks Ted then Ted is in charge of this lack that God has um Ted is in charge of the the Ted God relationship the worst No, I'm just saying like if we want our Love and piety and respect and worship to means it to mean something it must mean something when we don't give it It doesn't mean that God's any less powerful.
It doesn't mean that God's any less Um God, but I kind of what why is it wrong to say that it means that God is less happy You can be you can be like Because because it gives us the power of making of making God displeased when we want to make this but think about this So think about an example of like a veto of your child grows up and they're a disappointment And they're off doing terrible things in the world or they're just like being a big sad sack out there and that breaks your heart but um But there's still You you still have like the joy of life and you love your wife and you have a home and you eat good food and and in the back of your mind There's the yeah It would it would be I would be so much happier if my you know the prodigal son came home and loved me And there's this like desire that the father has for the prodigal to come back But if the prodigal doesn't come back I'm not gonna fall. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna completely fall apart But if he's back, I'm gonna be happier than I was And so maybe why is it wrong to say that God doesn't have this little twinge of desire for his prodigals to come home You you wouldn't say you would say that like I don't know I think I'm still a heartbreak, but it's not like I'm unhappy I'm gonna have to take ages on this one because this is our immutability conversation from forever ago that Again, all I ever do is reach from Wikipedia that God is does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being It's That's a complicated question. The consequence of design is saying the idea that God is absolutely independent of any other being He is in no way causally dependent So it would be wrong of us to say that I think ages point still stands That's wrong of us to say that we are hurting God by withholding something So when we read the prodigal son parable And we superimpose over that story God and us the sinner returning to God That's an inappropriate reading of that parable because we are ascribing That kind of bodily characteristics of the man running to embrace his son to God who shouldn't be moved by our decisions The part that I'm having trouble with is again that I think that sometimes gets worked out as they're being God's expressed will as opposed to his Secret will that feels like a like a It's a conversation cop out.
I'm fine with that But I just want to again I don't know where I stand on this and I think it is posing the question It's like a real God in a secret like public facing this Just so I can define my terms that there's a revealed will that is the way that God says things ought to be So God desires that all would be saved God desires that all would know him God desires that the kingdom would be on earth as it is in heaven But that's not the way it is But God is still in control Therefore we kind of get in this Romans eight is the one that people make fun of But that God is still working things together for the good of those who love him Even though the way that it looks right now is not kingdom on earth, right? So you are still doing God's will even when you're trying to It's the Satan dilemma. Everything I do to hurt God is just what he wants to do Yeah, so then that's where the like to talk of happiness seems to be The execution of God the will is God's happiness again I'm just working this out verbally But then that would mean that Since God who is in control of all is always executing his will he's always happy completely happy Now we're back in the like best of possible worlds Yeah, when we already answered that one is we live in the best of possible worlds Now that QED I feel like your question does does being hurt that my prodigal is off the rails I think the question has to be asked like does that imply an incompleteness? I think that's a good question Am I incomplete when my dopey kid isn't doing what he's supposed to doing ran off the drugs Is being hurt over that Does that imply an imperfection in me or can that be a perfection?
Right that's something I've created that I've created for a perfect Like purpose isn't fulfilling the purpose that I created for it Even though it's still within my will That's this is where your will distinction gets like complicated right It being imperfect is still within my overarching will Right You want to have kids that was your will you want him a family It still hurts when he's not doing what he's supposed to do And when he doesn't like you and you would like to like him But in that weird analogy he has a power to hurt you Right he could be like I love you dad just can you suck And you'd be like oh right right heart We can't really do that to God right So yeah and maybe tying in with that also that when we're pointing to parables We're pointing to metaphors and so those metaphors are to help us understand God But how are they helping us understand God if the conclusion is But he's not actually like this That all those who turn to him are welcomed into his household Right that is a true thing But it's described in a way that we can relate to as we have or no fathers right And I don't know where this fits in with this But that God is a fundamentally different being than human And so I just maybe even in talking about God being without passion Sounds like he's uncaring But what we're actually saying is that it would be uncaring if I were impassable and without passion But it would not be uncaring for God And maybe that's the discomfort you're feeling That the prodigals sort of the prodigals on both gives an example of how to be as a father And also tells us something about God And those might be two different things I'm having a hard time squaring the notion of This impassibility right lack of passion or being causally unrelated With some of the scripture that talks about God being grieved or being angry Like I know that those might just be metaphors to help us understand a constant attitude of God But I'm wondering how does how does Jesus fit into this? Because he was human in nature And that human nature isn't gone It's simply risen It's like that human is still out there feeling human things Yeah, Jesus is always like the problem of theology Right and that these categories don't work for I think to start with the easier example I think it is reasonable to read Old Testament emotions as being metaphors to help us understand So God hates sin Hate is an emotion word the way we use it now Is it more accurate to say that God is opposed to all sin Or there is a kingdom of heaven that is opposed to a kingdom of evil Right like the wrath of God Yeah, right But when we turn it into an emotion word that's different than saying there's an allegiance we offer to one or the other So again, the metaphorical language helps us to understand But to over focus on the hatred part of it is to miss that There's one there are two different kingdoms And maybe that's the deeper point of it But even then I ask all these questions partially because I like I've got a dog in the fight Right just like Nietzsche I'm in that boat and I'm screening down the thing If I don't think God actually needs my prayers And they're only for me And there's nothing that makes him more happier, less happier, more pleased or more pleased Then why do them? I don't eat them Right, I mean there's that feeling Like what am I actually offering to God? Maybe it's nothing And if it's just for me then well if I'm unselfish, why would I do it?
So there's that question And then Will I make your comment, I'll try to remember my other question Just I don't know if again just in thinking about piety as the place where you started this That when we hear piety or reverence we think of the specifically spiritual or religious realm And I don't think that's the only place where it belongs That I think piety at some level is a respect for those that come before us And that what piety at some level piety is If you you know in the Christian worldview, God is the one who made all things Well as a almost as like a thank you or an acknowledgement of His creation of all things There's a way that we live that's an accord with what he has said This is how we should live And so Oh your question about like why pray? It's a command, right? And as a I don't quite see the problem of I think that also following the virtues lead to in many cases a more prosperous life And I don't think that there are multiple benefits to it It's not a bad thing, right? But I also like to think that my prayers are effectual, right?
One of the reasons I didn't pray for so long as I was like God is gonna accomplish His purpose is with or without me But I don't feel like scripture bears that out And I don't feel like Because he responds to prayer Because he responds to prayer He does stuff It changes things in scripture It persists in widow Yeah and it changes things in Like there's even that one instance I forget which king it is but Nathan the prophet came He's like, you're gonna die, get your house in order He's like, no, what? And he prayed and then Nathan God told Nathan go back and he's like fine, you have a few more years Fine, whatever When he left So like it does change things And that kind of throws a wrench in this whole thing And the other reason that this is important to me specifically Is because like you know growing up I was part of the whole enlightened thing And I saw that emotions were dangerous and often untrustworthy And not necessarily good And so spent a lot of time trying to get a hold on them And now I think I feel them less than I should Right? That the passions are a healthy part of the human life And trying to restore their place Is difficult if you think that to be godly Means to be passionless Or at least supremely happy all the time Without an appropriate place for those passions Right? If I'm aiming to be godly then Yeah, but godly is not the same as to be god And that's the distinction I'm trying to say by Just in the way that when we talk about stoicism When we're not just trashing it There are benefits to a certain distance Of being swept up in one's passions That we would probably say is a good thing That's not the same as to say We must be totally without impact from others Because that would make us hold an unfeeling or a permit Which you know is not a bad way to be trash stoicism I like stoicism You don't remember the last time you did an episode on stoicism We were pretty, the two of us were pretty negative on it Was I involved now?
I don't think so You led the conversation You were very positive and we were both very negative Okay, I was like I don't like you don't remember these things That's one of my favorites I always feel very guilty about how we respond to many topics And you're completely not remembering it Makes me feel much better Don't ever, you can disagree with me like all week And I won't take it home with me So feel free So yeah, I probably need to do more thinking on this But again, if god is different in kind from human Right? So I don't As it's complicated with Jesus Which is always the problem of theology Right? And still it's human, right? That's the whole x1 thing Of the same way that he leaves It's the same way he'll come back So yeah, I don't know where to end it from there God is so different from humans That not everything that God does Is what we do God does not marry, we marry And I think the other lesson to take Is there are different kinds of infinity?
Different amounts Apparently there's a lot of disagreement over this Like different kinds of infinity Minus 1 might be a meaningless statement akin to saying round minus 1 So maybe someone out there will disagree with it But I think maybe a good example I've heard of like a small infinity Is the circle around the edge of a coin Yes, it's infinite But it's smaller But it's a small infinity That you can hold in your hands That's a tiny complete system That's from Chesterton Really good You should be worth the doxy The idea of piety being a respect for the past Or respect for the thing that's come before Ultimately going to God I think it's kind of an interesting thing Then it would be a pious action To almost like Submit yourself to the order of the world Yeah, submit yourself to the order of creation And this is probably why also in the Middle Ages Like it would be seen as in pious It's going against government It's going against king Because this was an interesting thing An established thing In the very fabric of creation Not just like human beings, cook it up But that idea of like that There can be a piety in how you treat The world Creation, nature There's a piety in how one Deals with family The elderly There's a piety in how one deals with traditions And so that really does complicate Or that really does sort of Go against a lot of modern sensibilities Which is the Throw off the chains Or It's going to be free Or like create your own reality Or It's for your own path That's sort of the That ethos It's kind of like a What was that? How was that? That explosion? I don't know That's very loud Do you think they'll show up on the recording?
I don't know Listen here if you didn't hear that There's a huge bang Yeah That sounded like some foul Yeah That's weird Something heavy I totally forgot I was going to say Ah, it's a forging home path Oh, it's a It's a It's such an extreme independence That it is folly Right, it's like Living at an outpost camp And being like No, I'm going to go live On my own in the woods And survive there Where it's way more dangerous And you're making bad decisions Like a lot of traditions are there As sort of the hedges To keep you on a good path I have found later in life It seems like you throw his problem Is that he is impious In his pursuit of justice And then it's But then what's fascinating Is that he calls that piety And I guess that doesn't It's not resolved in the dialogue No, because he throws like I got to go Right The other funny thing is that You throw thinks he's like Oh, I'll explain that Very easily too He says that sort of stuff All the time And he never does I wish he would Yeah Um, okay I think that's it Okay man, well We answered it Awesome, we nailed it Well, this has been classical stuff You should know With Graham, A.J and Thomas Plus tiny explosions Um, if you want to email us email us at the guys at classicalstuff.net You can patronize us on patreon Where we have in between episodes As well as Other little goodies For our patreon listeners and subscribers You can find us on twitter Where I will often No, I should use the word often Or I will occasionally say things Or like things Or tweet out articles And that kind of stuff And um, thank you so much For listening And catch you next week Bye, bye