Hello and welcome to classical stuff. You should know a podcast about books and ideas and whatever we have been reading recently My name is Thomas Magby. I'm joined as always by mr. Hannenberg that's me and mr.
Graham Dallins. Hello and in regards to today's topic I just heard the news today seems my life is going to change close my eyes began to pray the tears of joy stream down my face With arms wide open I receive this topic. It's a song by Creed. It's open.
We're talking about A little strange that you're doing the Spanish translations of creed correct credo Yeah, that is right. Yeah, so we're gonna talk about Creed and credo Graham. You are leaving Credo credo credo scredone. It's yes.
You have been working on your foreign languages. I appreciate that So we really I kind of realized we sort of we've been stumbling through the the trial and death of Socrates because AJ you did a youth of Throw episode a couple of times ago and I was like I'll do one on apology and Now we're doing it on credo or credo depending on what was the pronunciation we were debating before this episode we don't Criedo or credo. I say credo. You say credo.
Let's go And so Plato has a bunch of dialogues with Socrates and some of them are just him in the marketplace talking But then he has sort of four of them that are strung together that kind of make up the last four dialogues of Socrates's life It was youth of row when youth of row is when Socrates was standing in line to go to the courthouse and youth Throw is there to convict his father for murder. They debate the nature of piety and Socrates It's a great example of Socrates finding somebody who claims special knowledge about quote-unquote the higher things and Socrates wanting to learn the higher things and then realizing that the person he's talking to does not actually know the higher things The big sort of thing that Socrates wanted was don't give me examples of piety Tell me what piety is so I can recognize it give me the form of piety not the examples of piety or give me the type of piety Don't give me tokens and then we have the apology which we talked about on my last episode Which is the the trial of Socrates where he gives a defense for the rational life for the philosophical life and Then antagonizes the jury by asking for food It doesn't go well, and he's convicted to die and then we get the dialogue called credo and credo It's got a subtitle it may be Plato subtitle or could it come later? It's called so it's called credo and the subtitle is or on what is to be done and the setup is this is that credo is one of Socrates's students or at least admirers and he is wealthy and he's come to the jail where Socrates is languishing waiting to be executed and So credo has just found out that the boats that are coming there There's this apparently in Athens They waited every year they had this festival that kicked off when this boat came from another city blading with goods And they didn't really know when the boat was coming it was gonna come at like some time It had to do with the weather and when the boat came to have this big festival And when the festival was done then they could kill people who were on death row was it like a beer boat or something? Yeah, it's party boat.
Yeah, it's party boat, and let me see what even the foot note gives us some sort of It's a ship from Delos and for whatever reason when the Delos ship comes There's a party and then after the party then you can kind of go about the state's business of like killing people. Yeah, the Delos Party. Yeah, that sounds awesome. Um Anyway, so credo has come because his little dudes have spotted the boat about a day away And so he's like hey Socrates boat's gonna be here tomorrow, and you're gonna die and credo has credo's come because he is mad at Socrates He's kind of ticked at him.
He's like Socrates I have come with my he actually comes and gives him a mini deliberative discourse He has a thesis statement the thesis statement is we should break you out of jail and bribe the guards to do it and go to Visily or whatever go someplace and we should do it for three reasons says credo and he's got his three reasons and he presents it to Socrates Socrates weirdly knows that the boat is coming because he had a dream where the goddess told him that he was that it was coming. I Especially want to let's see Korea's like hey, man How did you know the boats on its way and Socrates says I had a dream Chris is what was a dream? Socrates says it seemed that a certain woman approached me beautiful and well-formed dressed in white and that she called me by name and said Socrates on the third that day thou wouldst arrive in fertile fithia That's a weird dream So whether not Socrates is being playful or if he actually himself had a dream right about Sort of a divine creature coming and telling him that he was going to die and be welcomed into some kind of well Do you know anything about fertile fithia as a resident classic expert? Nope?
Anyway, oh apparently it's a it's a reference to the iliad And if the famous earth shaker grants me a good sailing on the third day I would arrive in fertile fithia says Achilles anyway, whatever So sarki says a stream creo is like screw your dream. I'm busting you out of here I've got money to give to the guards and I've got three reasons why you should do it So I'm gonna read his three reasons from credo. Sorry here comes in. These are three reasons I'll read it you guys tell me what they are besides Socrates You seem to me to be attempting a thing that isn't even just you are betraying yourself Although it is possible to be saved and you are hastening the coming to pass of the very thing concerning yourself Which your very enemies would hasten on and did hasten on their wish to ruin you in addition to these things You seem to me at least to be betraying your own sons to whom you will leave in abandon Although it is possible for you to mature and educate them as far as it lies in you They will do whatever they happen to do by chance and chance will bring them as is likely just the sorts of things that usually happen to orphans When they are orphaned now one either should not have children or should endure the hardship of nurturing in them and educating them But you seem to me to be choosing the most easy-going course Instead one should choose what a good and manly man would choose particularly if one has claims to care for virtue throughout his whole life For my part I'm ashamed for you and for us for your companions that the whole affair concerning you will see well We'll seem to have been conducted with a certain lack of manliness on our part I'm making reference to the lawsuit the way the lawsuit was introduced in the law court even though it was possible for it not to be introduced The way the judicial contest itself took place and now this the ridiculous conclusion of the affair will seem to have escaped us completely because of a certain Badness and lack of maliness on our part since we didn't save you nor did you save yourself?
Although it was possible and feasible if we had been of even slight benefit So see to it Socrates that these things be not shameful as well as both bad for you and for us so he's kind of got three reasons There I'm also remembering that he has a fourth reason which is like listen Socrates I'm a pretty rich guy and if I don't bail you out if I don't grab a garden get you out of here people are later on going to say Hey, Krito loves his money more than he loves bailing Socrates out of jail and so kritos like you have to think about me in the situation as well I'm rich I'm rich and I know my reputation is on the line So he gives that reason so many other reasons he's betraying himself Yeah, and then betraying a son yeah, so your kids are gonna be orphans and they're gonna have like a crappy crappy raising And the whole way this thing is going down is not only against justice, but it's darn right on manly It is unmanly he's basically yeah, the way I sort of interpret that is he's like listen this this lawsuit came up And they were like saying we should kill Socrates because he's corrupting the youth and we kind of wrote it off as like a childish thing And then it kind of like took on its life of its own and it went to court and by the time it got to court it like blew itself out of proportion And we should just like manned up and nip this in the bud when we had the chance But we kind of like poo pooed it and now here you're dying You're gonna die because of it He's like I'm ashamed that I didn't just like stomp this little spark out before it became a fire I mean he's kind of right we look back on the men of Athens at that point and we definitely think they shouldn't have killed Socrates So they made a big misstep so I think in this he's probably correct Yeah, I do something to it where it's like well We didn't realize this was a threat It just sort of sounded like an absurd thing for someone to tweet out Yeah, and now it's become a thing and now the trials happen in your own death row How do we even get here? I'm ashamed we were we acted on nanny So do we say that last time that the vote to convict Socrates of something happened first and then he was voted to be killed Yes, it's almost like they wanted him to be punished. Yeah, just get slapped on the hand instead now We're at the yeah, we want to be punished and they're like basically it was like okay Socrates. He wants you to die To give us something and we'll meet you halfway and like, you know You have to give us like 60 grand turn and we'll let you go and Socrates doesn't play that game He's like you should award me the way you award your the champions of your city because I'm clearly a champion of your city I'm gosh darn And so then and his friends you can almost imagine the head slapping like the face palm is doing the back of the court Come on and now yeah, he's refusing to do the YouTube apology.
Yeah, exactly. He's refusing to be contrized But he's refusing to say like I'll do better. He's not the like I'm sorry. I made some jokes I shouldn't have made that's not what this channel's about I really educated myself on the issues and I promise I promise to do better And to yeah, anyway, he's not doing YouTube apology is he is sort of doubling down and his now his friends are saying like listen We would have paid the court fine.
So since we're not doing that we're gonna bribe the guards and I talked to him already It's not gonna take very much. It's a street. Oh, he's like these guys are willing to let you go on the cheap and And he says listen You also said Socrates in your trial that you didn't want to be banished because you didn't want to be an old man continuously getting kicked out of Foreign cities because you were annoying And he's like but listen I have some friends in Thessaly and they've already made up a guest bed and they're huge admirers of you and you can come to Thessaly and continue doing your Socratic inquiries and you're not gonna get kicked out You're not gonna like wander the desert like a dislike and like eat a piss Like you're gonna be able to have a home and have a place. Maybe you can bring your sons there It's gonna be fine.
We don't need to catastrophize this and die. And so Socrates is like, okay, cool. Thank you. Let's figure this out.
Let's So of course does not immediately accept the Yeah, it's actually really interesting because they're beginning. They're so friendly. They're good friends are so friendly to each other in Creedo is roughly a pure Socrates. He's not young like Plato He's an older man And so he and Socrates like welcome to see each other and welcome each other warmly and then as soon as Creedo outlines this Socrates almost is like slips.
He's not cold, but he slips into like, okay Let's break this down point by point. You almost hear Creo be like gosh So Socrates says, okay, you're eagerness. Awesome. I appreciate I love the passion.
I'm seeing it, but he says I Not only now, but always I'm such to obey nothing else of what is mine that then that argument which appears best to me upon Reason. He's like I want to only do the thing that appears best on reason It doesn't matter what my circumstance is it should I'm only gonna act if it's if I think that it's sort of the reasonable and right thing to Do and so Creedo's like, okay So The he says the first argument is the one about the fact that There's a huge crowd of people that sort of expects Socrates you to break out of jail and if you break out of jail people You'll be like, yeah, we figured that was gonna happen And the crowd is sort of thinking that if you break out It's good and if you do that you're sort of like honoring your friend because Creedo gets to people get to say like Oh man, Credo He values his friendship more than he valued his money This is this is this is a good thing and it's just for Socrates to do this because An injustice was done to him and so Socrates is sort of like, you know Retreating to his camp and letting his camp take care of him going off and licking his wounds So this is a good thing that the crowd wants you to do And then so Socrates comes in and see if I can find it here Let's see, sorry He says He says okay, Credo imagine imagine a gymnast Who has if you're gonna raise that gymnast and have that gymnast be healthy? Are you going to listen to the crowd of people with their opinions about what the gymnast should do or you gonna listen to the trainer Who has raised who has made successful gymnasts before and it's like it's really says a trainer I'm gonna listen to the trainer and he's like and he says why you know And and if it should a gymnast listen to the crowd when they praise or blame him for his gymnastics or should he listen to the trainer? And he says you should listen to the trainer And sorry, he says therefore he should fear the blame and welcome the praises of one, but not those are the many Credo's clearly Socrates he is to practice and exercise then and to eat and drink as seems fitting to the one to the overseer and expert rather than to all the Others and creels like yes He says well then if he the gymnast disobeys the one and dishonors his opinion and praises while honoring those of the many who have no expertise Won't he suffer evil?
He's like yeah, I'll suffer evil and sorry He says what kind of evil will he suffer if he listens to people who know nothing about gymnastics and ignores the people the one Man who knows about gymnastics, what's the evil he'll suffer pajin again? Yes, and he says the sorry evil He will suffer will be bodily yes, and he'll be like yes, okay So yes, so sartis is drawing an analogy and he says I don't want to listen to the crowdsourced ideas about justice of what everybody thinks I should do I want to listen to what I guess in the sense the overseer and expert should do and he says sartis says and if I listen to the Crowdsourced opinions of the many and it is going to bring an evil what kind of evil is it going to bring to me? It's not bodily and credo says it's gonna bring an evil to your soul and sartis says that's right Come then if we destroy that which becomes better by the healthful and is corrupted by the disease full because we don't obey the opinions of experts Is life worth living for us when it has been corrupted surely? This is the body isn't it?
It says yes, so pardon me is life worth living for us with a wretched and corrupted body and creo says in no way You don't live life, you know what like a way bro. You don't want to fall apart You want to be like carrying a few extra ungymnastic weight if I can't do flips what is life what is life like yes And Socrates says but his life worth living for us with that thing corrupted Which the unjust mames and the just prophets or do we hold that thing? I either soul to be more paltry than the body whatever it is of the things that belong to us which both injustice and justice Concerned for is like no, no in no way, but more honorable much more honorable and sorry He says okay good Does this guy ever see the traps that Socrates is leaning into like not see down the road a little ways and be like okay Yes, I see we're going Socrates. No, he's just like oh man.
How do we get here? Yes, no, he doesn't he doesn't be proven so wrong Okay, what's our Jesus conclusion then what's he mean? I'm obviously not gonna listen to the group of the masses and if I take everyone's opinion for what I should do I'll be harming my own soul. I just don't know what I just don't know the master is yet.
Well, yes very good He's going to talk about himself as a man. He doesn't is it the god? It's the good the other people who voted the overseer like the massive no he doesn't know so well Those jokers didn't give free meals. I'm sorry Jesus whole life has been looking for the man who knows the good Right and he says I want to listen to that guy and do what that guy tells me regards to the just There is no that guy there is no that guy So what Socrates does appeal to is he appeals to conclusions that they've made about justice in the past to credo and so This is a little where the section here.
Why doesn't credo just say like can I be that guy? Yeah, yeah, cuz then sarkities would like Demolition with questions and yeah, that's just the recipe for a waste of afternoon. That's true So the sarkity says okay, is it better if if doing injustice corrupts the soul like doing bad gymnastics corrupts the body and if the But having a bad body's not worth living having a bad soul is not worth living credos like yes that follows and Socrates comes to the conclusion That we should never in any way do injustice I'm trying to find the best the best section of this He says that let's see Do we assert that in no way ought injustice to be done voluntarily or that in one way injustice ought to be done But in another way not or is doing injustice in no way good or noble as we have often agreed in the past and what was also said Just now or have all the former agreements of ours been poured away in these last few days and all together at our age credo We old men have long been seriously conversing with each other where we unaware then that we ourselves are no different from children Or is it so for us now more than ever just as it was spoken then whether the many say or so or not and whether we must suffer things still Harder than these or maybe milder does doing injustice nevertheless happen to be bad and shameful in every way for the one who doesn't justice Do we affirm it or not and credos as we affirm it? So Socrates has this inclusion this conclusion that whenever you do injustice it is a wrong It is a damage to the soul and if you do injustice even if the doing of injustice is getting you out of a present trouble like jail Then that is a wrong thing to do So now Socrates needs to look at is breaking the law of Athens unjust in this present situation because It would seem like it wouldn't be yeah If we think that he was wrongly accused of these we talked about this last time if the charges against him are false Then it is wrong for him to be in jail.
Yes, yeah and this and this is sort of the question of this of this dialogue because Socrates has been leading credo along and getting credo to remember the argument that we should never do injustice regardless of what has been done So Socrates you know says sums it up for those of you following along at home in 49c Socrates says then no human being should do injustice in return or do evil whatever he suffers from others because if he if injustice is Done to the man and the man returns injustice for injustice He is damaging his own soul by doing that injustice and Creole says yes, he does do that So Socrates basically has this like zero injustice tolerance policy You will knit you we should never commit injustice because in the long run It's damaging our soul and credo is agreeing until the Socrates So Yes, so in Socrates presents this so when they get to the question of breaking the law of Athens is breaking the law Just or not or is it always an injustice to break the law of your city? No? Yeah, this is the so and so Socrates the way he broaches this is he pretends that law herself is standing in the cell with them Okay, and that she has come to talk to Socrates and so that so this is here's a section here Socrates says this Consider it as follows What if the laws and the community of the city should come and stand before us who are about to run away or whatever name We would give it the breaking out from here and ask tell me Socrates What did you have in mind to do by this deed that you are attempting? What do you think you're doing if not destroying us laws and the whole city as far as it lies in you or does it seem possible to you For a city to continue to exist and not be overturned in which the judgments that are reached like in the court have no strength But are rendered ineffective and are corrupted by private men What shall we say Creole to these and other such things for someone especially in order would have many things to say on behalf of this law If it were destroyed and I think the law of Socrates is talking about is The judgments rendered by the courts should be binding That's the thing that they're breaking by getting out of there by you know spending money to be corrupted to corrupt the guard Many orders would have things to say if this law were destroyed the law that orders that the judgments reached in trials be authoritative Or shall we tell them the city was doing injustice doing us injustice and did not pass judgment correctly Shall we say this or what and Creole says yes, we should definitely say that he says yes this by zoo Socrates So Creole comes in he's like listen the law has not been your friend Socrates It has done you an injustice and some cases like what I'm gonna look at law on the face and say I'm going to break the law Because an injustice was done to me and yes, yes, you should but we had just earlier Declared that we should never give an injustice if an injustice has done to us Okay, and so even if the law of the city has been unjustly condemned us to a crime It would be unjust to break the laws of this the other laws of the city which say that Verdict should be binding so just because we have suffered an injustice us doing another injustice doesn't make it right yeah He's basically saying like he has a sort of claim where he says that we're lady I call her lady law just that she comes in and talks to him She says or does it seem possible to you that a city should continue to exist and not be overturned in which the judgments that are reached have no strength So she's basically saying like Socrates if you break the one law you are essentially being an enemy of the state Which is saying that your laws mean nothing to me?
And if that was a universalized agreed good then Athens and her law would no longer exist says Socrates and Creole's like Oh, but it sucks for you wait is that kind of is that kind of the content argument that I should I should act as though every action I do universalizing the idea the particular yeah, I think so it sounds like it. I mean that's his idea It sounds like Socrates is kind of saying that yeah, that same thing like if I did this the universe in the particular Yeah, wouldn't what would happen if all men did this things would fall to pieces, right? He's kind of pre-continent. Yes.
Oh content is post-acritic, right? Which so he's right in that sense if everyone gets to pick which laws are the good ones you can't have a society Yes, but we still have laws that change I don't know well So sorry He's actually gonna double down on this and he's going to give a justification for why we should follow the laws of the city And the more that I think about it the like crazier it sounds this argument yes his argument not crazy in terms of of not being cogent but just in terms of like it's it's you put you put these reasons in the mouth of like the state itself and it's very well listen to it Okay, so sorry he says this he says imagine if he says okay. Well, let's say if the law continues to talk to us as arties Let's see what I want to start The city says come now what charges are you bringing against us and the city that you are attempting to destroy us by not being the laws First didn't we forget you and didn't your father take your mother and bring you forth through us tell us then Do you in some way blame those of us laws that concern marriages for being noble? I do not blame them I would say what about those that concerned the nurture and education in which you two were educated of the one born or didn't those laws among us?
Which have been ordered for this end order your father nobly when they pass along the command to him to educate you in music and gymnastics nobly I would say Well then since you were born and nurtured and educated to could you say first that you are not ours both our offspring and slave You yourself as well as your forebearers and if this is so do you suppose that justice is equal for you and for us? Or do you suppose that it is just for you to do in return whatever we attempt to do to you now with regard to your father or a Master if you happen to have one justice was not equal for you so that you didn't also do in return whatever you suffered You didn't contradict him when he spoke badly of you Nor did you beat him in return when you were beaten or do any such thing? So is it then permitted to you to do so with regard to the fatherland and the laws So that if we believing it to be just attempted to destroy you then you too to the extent that you can will attempt to destroy us laws And the fatherland in return and will you say that in doing this you were acting justly you who in truth care for virtue Or are you so wise that you have been unaware that fatherland is something more honorable than mother and father and all the other forebearers and more Venerable and more holy and more highly esteemed among gods and among human beings who are intelligent and that you must revere and give way to and Fawn upon a fatherland more than a father when it is angry with you and either persuade it or do whatever it bids and keep quiet and Suffered if it orders you to suffer anything whether to be beaten or to be bound or that if it leads you into war to be wounded or Killed this must be done and that this is just and that you are not to give way or retreat or leave your station But that in war and in court and everywhere you must do whatever the city and fatherland bid or else persuade it What the just is by nature and that it is not pious to do violence to father or mother and still less by far to the fatherland Then to them what should we say reply to these things credo peers like I don't know So what's so so summarize like what's this point? What's he saying?
It's Rousseau. He's basically saying you've given up these rights Yeah, I have become part of social contracts I have gotten from my society everything that I wanted from it And now when it's not quite quite give me what I want when it has declared me nave I Reject it and all of its gifts and that is that is exactly what we're so said, right? Yeah, I didn't put those pieces together I think you're exactly right we jump into the social contract in order to receive all of these great things from the state and to protect us From bandits and robbers with the understanding that when we turn bandit and robber We will to be so punished and that it might require our life from us like this is this is exactly so contract So yeah, Socrates comes in with this and says that You yeah, you were given all these benefits and it raised you and just like how a father is going to correct you for your better You don't get to then turn around and correct your father, right? And if the state is correcting you or if the state is pronouncing judgment on you You don't get to turn around and do the same thing to the state because it has pronounced It's judgment on you as something that's begotten you and there's a line and there's something to the effect of you either persuade to change Or you follow them or you follow them.
Oh, you follow them now. Yeah, so in Plato or at least with this line of arguing There is still an avenue open For this that this of something that the state is subservient to so it's not just like the capricious wishes of the state That they get to make the laws and you have to follow them no matter what there's still an avenue open to persuade the state and the line was But then Warren court and everywhere you must do what the city and father land bid or else persuade it What is what the just is by nature? Oh, okay So as far as Plato or Socrates or however you want to delineate between two of them is concerned the state and its laws are still Subservient to the justice the natural justice or the form of the good so the platonic form of the good is supposed to form the laws of the state and if if in the pronounce You know if in the the sort of deployment of the law or the interpretation of the law is you think it's unjust You either convince us that it isn't just and if it's not you Submit to it as if because the state has begotten you all these sort of things You don't just get to like run away right and and you can almost hear credo being like but but it's still not like it's still not fair And and when he's talking about state, this is a democracy, right? So these are it is actually persuading people to change their mind about the nature of these laws now I keep thinking like an authoritarian like one person control, but this applies in a democratic setting as well This was true democracy resident.
Everybody gets one vote kind of mm-hmm. Yeah No, he yeah, it's true democracy where like the 500 everyone's gotten a vote yes now He does Socrates does at some point to talk about the fact that Well, he doesn't want to commit an injustice because whether he dies now or dies later He is going to have to go and be face-to-face with the gods and they're gonna say like hey Where you just where you just and he says I was until the state which born me and gave me everything pronounced judgment on me And then I left he's like how can I how can I he says how can I look the gods in the eye and say that? And he's like how can I even go to Thessaly and go to your fancy, you know, guest room and sit around at the dinner table and talk about virtue When I have done an unjust act. He's like what what what grounds do I have to stand on to even care?
I'm coming on a few out come under me and the stuff that I love to do I love the good right and he says and like think through it He says the state said that I was corrupt in the youth and I came before the state and I tried to persuade them that I was not and in the end they Still said that I was corrupt in the youth therefore I should submit to the the law of the state now the retort that credo can give back to Socrates is they didn't listen to your persuasion They just hate you and it has nothing to do with reason has everything to do with grudge and Because of that you shouldn't submit to it He's like yeah But it's still the state and they've still given me all these laws and they've still given me all this all these goods And it would be unjust not to not to follow it It's even wilder because I'm remembering from your last time that Socrates briefly was in government and was involved in an unjust persecution of War general who had lost a war and they were gonna basically become they're gonna string them up as a sort of like Or criminals who are losing them for losing a battle they weren't actually criminals And so he's seen the injustice that the the state is capable of and still comes to this conclusion Yeah So the question that I have with Socrates and this is what we can have debate is like is Socrates a noble martyr for the rule of law Like he so believes in the organized society that he's willing that he says I'm not gonna break the law even when it appears to me to be unjust But he was literally tried for corrupting the state for corrupting the youth So was he like this noble martyr for law or is he like did he get played? It depends on if he was actually corrupting the youth I remember doing that episode Thomas I think he was corrupting the youth there you go Yeah, so then I would say he is he is not getting hoodwinked and he like maybe is a noble martyr for law Maybe in that he had the opportunity but didn't leave other than that. He's just a criminal right? He was corrupting you so what's the argument for the fact that he was corrupting you by the way my favorite of your hot takes Oh, really that's not exactly what he's doing.
It's what he's doing. Yeah, sorry Can you lay it out for this episode to Thomas? What's your what's the rationale for Socrates is corrupting? He took all of the like hopeful future politicians and businessmen and turned them into philosophers and And Socrates was the whole point of him asking to be fed for life is because he was Socrates was poor He couldn't care for himself in his family So it took these people who would have been a benefit to the city and instead kind of took them off those paths But he caused them to care about virtue and where's when we said this before that probably each city has a capacity for one Socrates but to have like dozens and dozens of them you reach a point where you don't need that many people criticizing things Maybe people should just build it make it better.
So yeah, I think there's I think that argument is legitimate of the corruption But the side of impiety that was the other charge you so you don't think that as a young person submitting yourself to that Socratic method is a net positive for the soul you think It's a location should I even be teaching Socrates to my seniors am I cropping them by giving them this example in your that book? We read that you blurb said that you shouldn't teach Plato at all. So do you remember the So you be teaching him sure I think age I just answered the question by saying that there's a difference between Like learning about Socrates and the method in committing your life to your your location to it I think there should be very few professional philosophers Notice this does Socrates get redeemed for you in the fact that he is willing to die for this Yes, it's blowing. I mean again I'm aware of these things but for him to just accept that I mean his whole MO is like to question and reject authority And he's now like the state is always right the state is always right I'm gonna submit to it and also he is also a fear of the gods like he has such a desire to do to never do an injustice He's like rationally speaking it is never right to sin It is never right to do an injustice even one that benefits you he's following through on his conviction Yes, like you have to respect him for that you also just have to be like my guy Just like leave like go to whatever foreign country has offered him like think about this for another decade or something instead of giving in But it's hard to say that he was wrong to do that I think the question of whether he was corrupting the youth really hinges upon whether he was asking all these questions and pointing them towards the good And then saying now off you go to your vocation or if he was saying if he was turning them into philosophers Just like himself because I think in the latter case you might be right that he was turning these people into drains on society rather than AIDS society But on the same token We don't want to hold people in business and in politics that have never considered the good and have no framework for the good Sure those would be I'd say far more potentially dangerous than a couple people who need some meals Yeah, now the other thing is that Socrates as we saw in Yuthafro Socrates has no tolerance for saying I am going to accept this the the sort of moral positions on things because it's come to me in the tradition That I've grown up in I got because I've grown up listening to the stories of the gods And I'm gonna base my my life on those stories or or I've grown up listening to Homer And I'm going to base myself on the morals of Homer Socrates has no time for that being your argument So you can't just say I grew up and I've read the sacred texts And I've sort of internalized their ethos and that's going to be the guy for my life And I'm gonna go be a lawyer or a politician Sarches is gonna be like no, that's that's trash you have to think through this from first principles And I think when students read that for the first time at least where you were that for the first time There's a certain amount of like yeah You need to go and think through these things for yourself and go to first principles and like really build this up on your own But then if someone says okay, well then don't just don't just accept the Don't just accept like conventional Christian morality or don't just accept you an American way of life or don't just and then all of a Sounds like Don't you tell me what not yet?
Yeah, and so then then it gets a little bit more uncomfortable like Yes, can you actually go back down to first principles like Socrates wants to do and then build up your aughts from there? No, or do the aughts always have to have some kind of solid ground that can only come through saying like I'm gonna believe this Or this or saying this thing exists and this is the thing that I'm going to build myself my my framework on I think Plato appeals to those all the time and or at least in his writing Socrates They're always saying clearly this thing is a good for example. Yes, it is a good. There is a justice Justice we want to know exactly what it is But there's no question that it is there and there is a natural justice that the state is subject to if you want to take Socrates to his Ferthest extreme and say I need to cut everything down to its core I mean that was what what the existentialists try to do what need to try to do and eventually you find nothing And then you end in the land of absurdism Yeah, right where he's like we have a world we cannot make sense of logically without some sort of first principles and therefore what now And that's you know the the project of Kierkegaard and Camus and all those guys like now that our experiment in doing this with pure reason has failed What's the fallout is the question?
That point like again, he reaches this point of like total subservience to the state which is like the opposite ethos of the absurdist, right? It says like we can't make sense of the state one way or the other so how are we supposed to live in light of that? Therefore, and then you can kind of get maybe it's more of a nihilism But then therefore individuals can do whatever they want to which isn't Socrates's final But Socrates does leave the ground open that the reason Athens is good is because its laws are based on The of the persuasion of just by nature. So like he has this root this Socrates it seems as willing to say Test the question are the laws that Athens have set up are they just by appealing not to the fact that they exist because Athens said so But are they just because they are grounded in the higher thing?
Which is the form of justice and start he says yes, and then so Athens is it better for the laws of Athens than you know? The laws of Athens grounded in the good and start he says yes the laws of Athens have now come down on me Therefore I'm going to follow them and continue to justice I guess the question is is Socrates by submitting to the state is he doing a just thing would it have been injustice for him to Run away and so you just said like yeah, just bail and leave and think about it for another 10 years, but I'm being inconsistent I fully acknowledge that because I think there is some good not being captured in the in his survival like the reservation of life But I mean that then becomes whether the state has the right to take life away, and that's kind of like I just I recognize that I'm being inconsistent with this I think the case was decided closely, but probably fairly and then therefore you probably should just submit to it It just doesn't feel right to say Socrates should die. Maybe again. I keep falling back on I think it's that distinction between him being Found guilty of something and his punishment being defined so yeah, it's not a proportion the proportional punishment So I think it's fine to say Socrates should be punished for something but probably but not fine for that to be death somewhere between Freemials and death.
Yeah. Yeah, I wish you got a free meal That would have been the perfect one maybe they're getting free meals, but they're all just terrible meals Just a meal every meal I love it, but not for every meal. That's fair. Yeah, that's actually an interesting point that doesn't get brought up Right that and that seems to be like it's a pretty big technicality is the is the proportional the proportional punishment That's why you have the appeal system.
Yeah, but the thing is there was the appeal system and Socrates No, but Socrates used his you went through the arguments of what he should do So he said I should get free meals, but that's probably because I'm a massive benefit to the city like a champion of the Olympics But if you're not gonna do that perhaps I should do the fine of you can find me what I'm willing when I'm able to pay Let's do that. I'm able to pay 30 dollars And then at the end he says but my students tell me that I should up my request to something like he says, you know $60,000 let's use as our number and he says so I submit that to the court But the court comes down and presumably we don't really know why they do it, but they come down They say she should die. So the court pronounces death So was it that sassy Socrates sealed his fate by being by saying give me free food or? Or was this actually was death the appropriate thing for let's be honest like remember the crime the corruption of the future generations of Athens It's a pretty serious thing.
That's more serious than like you took a loaf of bread Who was even more serious than you the well then you killed one person right you have corrupted a generation who would suffer that now Cardi B. Yeah, you made it your last time No, no way that exactly happened. Yeah, I'm glad you don't remember at all. She had a great tweet about inflation this week So she is she's educating the masses about cardio.
Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm also sorry for making the same joke I feel so like such a cat okay. Yeah.
I mean we don't we don't sort of consider that to be a problem. Correct You can punch me with three meals. Oh, yeah, I know it's just so yeah, so sucker It is a pretty serious thing, so maybe death is appropriate. Do you think death is not appropriate for that crime Thomas again?
I'm acknowledging my inconsistencies here, of course. Yeah, but oh, but he said he's not willing to suffer banishment So that's on him then yeah, but the part that I'm not understanding is that it just seems like the punishments are not defined ahead of time As to like what you'll get for the corruption of the youth and it seems like the 500 people voting have a lot of leeway It's something there doesn't seem quite right. Yeah, but now I'm just feel like I'm in technicality land The rest of the dialogue ends with Socrates and going through and refuting that it's better for him to be just then to be in just for his kids it's better for him to be just in then to be unjust for the sake of having more Socrates time on earth and And he says that I'm gonna go and have to talk to the gods And if I truly have said that I love justice my whole life and my end my last action of my life is an injustice That's how I'm gonna be remembered and that's how Socrates is always going to be portrayed so he also has he wants to keep the the sanctity of his position that he's sort of carved for himself in this world or he wants to keep the Authenticity of his that he wants to be someone who has authentically followed through on his convictions And so then it just leaves some really troubling questions like is the tris someone who is authentic if someone is a authentically wanting to do the good We as a society don't have a place for that person because they're gonna be corrupting to the youth because they are going to It's basically like yeah They're gonna be grinding people to a halt because they're gonna get to the place where they're like whoa Before I determined whether or not I should go be a lawyer or a politician or a doctor or an artisan or poet or whatever I need to determine the good and what is and if and how to do it and until I do that I'm not gonna move forward and And sark he's never moved forward because I was looking for 70 years and never finds the answer to the question so Yeah, it's it's almost like he comes to the same position that a lot of the existentialists come to which is like Pick something or I know they came to sort of pick something and just be happy with it So he's even himself never sort of pick something although he still is himself joggily Devoted to the good even to his calling to find the good in the world Yeah, and also to not do in just he must have some form of it because he knows that he has a benefit to the society He says look my job is to sting you into virtue. Yeah, so it's not like he still has no idea what virtue is He's still looking for it.
He's a pretty good idea of some of it, right? He's not gonna run away. He knows the laws are good. He knows what justice is and even in Plato's Republic they reach conclusions, right?
It's it's is justice worth is better to have be just truly than to be unjust and they reach a conclusion And that's what he's appealing today is like didn't we come to that conclusion? Yeah, so it is unfair to paint him as someone who's been searching his whole life and found nothing Yeah, it is fair to paint him as someone who with those conclusions is a consistently obnoxious person in the city to the people who want To be getting their jobs done. Yes, so I guess the question is is it Can you break the laws of your homeland and still be a just person? Yes, absolutely.
Why do you say this Tom? What's that gave you everything it that brought you into this world that gave you your home in your education? Yeah, what's the rule of argument that you're very wife that you've worn in this nation? Well, I'm not going to talk about the United States But the what the rule of argumentation that ever brings up the Nazis first loses But like the classic example would be sure you're an attorney Right and bad laws are put in place where people are gonna get murdered But here's the thing this isn't a bad law the law is no verdict should be followed Yeah, but I'm just saying if there exists any law for which we should not follow then there could be laws that we shouldn't follow So make like it's great the category So do you think that we should have corrupting the youth laws see it?
No, no, you don't think that we have we do have laws about that Yeah, we have like ratings of movies we have obscenity laws Yeah, but we don't put people to death for making those movies like we can think they're corrupting influences that youth We'll still see and we don't put people to death through make them We do put people in jail for exposing themselves in places where they shouldn't and like there are there are things that we do with those laws I think that is just sheer progress to say our punishments are now more commensurate to the crime that is being done Sure, but we don't have a category for these ideas are bad and that's the again Just the fascinating thing about this like it. So should they put Socrates in jail until he died? Is that better again? I want to say no, but I'm having trouble finding where that is I mean maybe give him like an area of town like you get the park Socrates and people don't want to you know I'm here all your business They don't go to the park and maybe we say no kids allowed in the park until you're 13 And at that point you can go talk to Socrates, but none before they're gonna like blow you away and and you're gonna like go through this You know the thing that every undergrad philosophy major goes through which is like the world's a phony place Well, but really I feel like probably 20 years old is maybe the exact right spot for so when you think you have it All figured out, but you need to be broken down a little bit So maybe I haven't go work at the college for college so forth So there's a good question is this what Socrates does does is that a?
stage of Human development like I always get the sense that Socrates is a young man's philosopher He is the person that like people he even says yeah The youth love me because they love watching me own noobs own the noobs own the noobs own the people on campus who think that he said they know something And then you have to grow up at some point and like put you know and play your chips and actually like Take a stand and and and Have suffered the consequences of your decisions whereas it seems like Socrates is willing to not do that Socrates is willing to be to sleep on your college He's basically willing to be a college student the rest of his life. Yes, he has family couches and not providing and not sort of benefiting society in any way even though he says no I'm totally benefiting society. I'm like doing you know, I'm creating these awesome threads on reddit. Yeah, yeah And it's just so is there yeah, maybe that maybe I just point is just a good one There is a place for it.
Yeah, we do that. We have the place. We have the college campus, right? So that's we do a place in town that you're not allowed to go to until you're Yeah, it's college campus your freshman philosophy class Or you need to be disabused of all of your silly notions of the things you think you know in error Mm-hmm, and then maybe it needs to happen again Maybe you're mid 30s when you think you got all figured out and I think that happens naturally right when you hit your mid 30s And you're like oh my parents aren't stupid.
Mm-hmm. They kind of have things figured out I might actually need their advice I think that might be a natural thing But maybe right around 20 years old is when you need to be sat back down told you don't know everything It's just funny because I could imagine then that person from 20 to 30 wandering while trying to follow Socrates And then at 30 realizing actually the generation above me kind of has things figured out when I realized and there might not be Some philosophical reason I could just be it's great to get married enough kids really like there's nothing more underlying it than just that so Yeah, I think that's what we mean by saying Socrates didn't take positions He did but he's still asking too basic of questions at 70 like is that the yeah, yeah, maybe or Or is he's just not he's not comfortable enough acting on like 80 percent information. Yes, right? He has to have the wonder he wants to have the form of the good in his hands before he will go And You never will have the form of the good in your hands, right?
I don't think so. I don't think so at least not fully or well. I mean, I think if Socrates talks to Christ If Socrates was able to talk to Jesus and Socrates realizes that the form of the good was actually a person that you have relationship with That would change everything for Socrates I think there's sometimes you have the form of the good you can know what's right And I certainly think there's times when you just have to make a decision Right when things are gray and you need to pick one or the other and because that that is better than doing nothing Mm-hmm, but there are times when I know that what is good and I can either choose to do it or not Is that different because that's the knowing the right action as opposed to this ideal form Isn't but I would say that I know the right action because I know the ideal form of what is right now So we were being a little unsharedable to start he's saying that he doesn't have any sort of function society He still believes that like what Ajay was saying that the gadfly like he still feels like he needs to sting the lazy person who is in power to a heightened sense of awareness of the stakes of their position and to like love the good, right? He wants the politician to be someone who Realizes that he can't just sort of like shoot from the hip But he has to be following a higher higher conviction of the good right then that and that seems to be fair And that's like what set the preacher is that the well?
What where does that exist in society today? Sure isn't the philosopher gone to college campus? I'm not sure where that person is now I'm just thinking then you saying that is reframing then his decision to accept the death is own death because it's his way of Calling out the politicians that did that to him in the first place Yes, I mean his last it's his last Sticking it to them sticking it to them and if he didn't do it He kind of undoes all the work he's done before so he's kind of has to in order that he can stand He can be the city's the market you can stand up as a symbol of Sort of dedicating yourself to the higher things right? Anyway, so yeah, I wonder if you wouldn't have died for it if you would have ended up kind of in our history books as a Diogenes character just like an annoying dude.
Just yeah, sort of the reddit troller of philosophy. Yeah, I think so I mean there there is a Like a sanctifying of his mission by the fact that he's willing to die for it, right? Yeah That and it seems like he recognizes that because he's like what do I do if I go to the festival and talk about virtue Like I that ran away from the law that said that you should die for corrupting the kids He's gonna be like yeah about that I can just see him also then saying unjust laws exist therefore We should watch out for unjust laws like I could see him making the opposite argument and still being remembered well I agree with you that it heightens things that he chooses to die for what he believes in But I just I don't think it rules out he could have made the opposite argument And I don't think it would undermine everything he said if he then escapes death at the very end. Yeah the other sort of chilling thought is Does Does Socrates's dugget love of the good Create in him the potential for being having started coming to this like fascist conclusion about following the state like Socrates as the prisoner is saying this and has a certain amount of nobility But imagine if it was Socrates the like president saying that like the state raised you the state You you are its child that slave and you cannot give back to the state But the state is giving to you in terms of like punishing you for your betterment.
We would listen that and be like nope Oh gosh, we got a bonhoeffer this thing It is this if it's if it's him then that sounds like tyranny But if he is saying this is a democracy of your your countrymen They're 500 of us and we're the most respected in town and we have we have raised you we brought you in We have provided for you And you have snubbed your nose at us and this isn't like this is all of us together saying you have done a wrong thing not Socrates himself so give me the difference between the tyrant saying that and the philosopher king saying that if they're both saying the same thing Well the philosopher king or the tyrant both if it's a philosopher king saying it for the you're gonna go to the state that the tyrant is saying it for his good So it needs to be able to be persuaded that it is conforming to the good like that's what's our so yes Yeah, and the philosopher king would never step outside doing that right whereas the tyrant doesn't or at least the philosophy King would be trying to pursue the good Yeah, the time the tyrant is trying to pursue his own ends and that is the difference so then even in the state of the philosopher king There would be avenues open for someone to appeal to natural justice and if in case the philosopher king was wrong Whereas in the tyrant state those appeals would rather not happen something This sounds a great question is Socrates living in a tyrannical Athens or is he living in a virtue in a virtuous act? He's living in a democratic one and I don't think it's the second last one exactly It's it's in bad shape because as he's talked about in the republic that's that comes right before tyranny I mean it's because it is the kind of chaos that yields tyranny And so I don't think he's living in something that is tyranny or is super dangerous And he has had his chance at appeal right but he isn't appealing to his philosopher king someone that can converse with him on The topic he's convert he's appealing to men who are petty and small and may eventually be ruled by a tyrant So then it's safe to say that if Socrates was living in a true aristocratic society So a society ruled by the good that he his appeals to the good and that this is un unjust Kid murder that he would have so it's art he's living in a risk of credit society He would have got free meals I think they would have said the free meals thing is ridiculous But we are going to find you that $20 gotcha okay fair And then if Socrates lives in a tyrannical society or a democratic society It's you've you've ticked off the wrong 380 of the 500 guys in this room and now you're gonna die for it Yeah, and then the tyrannical society. It's like you've ticked off one guy Long before this yeah, he would have yeah, he would have sat that one guy the one guy be like man Not today, but in it and all of those societies Socrates is still doing the same thing and he's gonna get punished Well, but as we have said he was doing a wrong thing. He broke up dang I don't know.
That's a hard one. It's hard to swallow. You disagree. I mean there's part of me that just wants to be like Socrates is Doing a good for the city and should be rewarded and there's another part of this like you're right He is grinding these kids to a halt like they're not gonna go off and and reach their potential What I like of how the character of the Socrates in cities gets played out in the history of English literature Is that you have the idea of the court jester or the fool the person who is allowed to say what is true and unmask the hypocrisy of those Empower but he does it he doesn't lose his head because he can do it in that sort of charming way that Socrates lacks And he can do it in kind of the like he can say it without and the king being like oh, you're so right.
I'm crazy and You're right. I kind of am tyrannical. Yeah, you're a little scamp Although I feel like the the free meals thing was kind of that Maybe this is kind of the fool and like you know the fool can get away with it in better forms of government And then the fool is the first to the chopping block once tyranny starts to come. Yeah, that's probably it one thing start to sour He's the canary in the gold mine if you will Anyway, that's that's credo and that kind of puts a wraps a little bow around our our Socratic death trinity trillity is not one there's no one but that's where they debate the immortality of the soul And it's good, but it doesn't really sort of ask these main questions And we kind of already talked about in the apology that's a good point because I think it's fate Oh, we do get the death of Socrates in that but in the apology He's given the argument for why death is not a big deal and he kind of talks about that in the in the immortality of the soul The one and I think we talked about that in the Republic too.
Yeah in the last chapter or so I think it talks about the immortal soul again. I could be wrong on that one It's been a while but he's like I didn't make this I just discovered it and if I discovered it and I know it The thing that discovered and no one must have known it before and that thing must be eternal anyway It's one of those arguments. So what are the other other four texts? So in the book that I'm holding his four texts on Socrates and the last one in this book is Aristophanes clouds, which is the play that was essentially the hit piece that became the meme and everybody's brains about who Socrates was and presumably you know 300 out of those 400 guys only watched Socrates and Aristophanes were like, oh, yeah, this guy has to be stopped So it's the equivalent of you know, you're just watching like this this sort of YouTube video of all the greatest hits of like the Joe Rogan podcast where he says dumb things be like this guy's trouble the South Park version.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah Anything else is it that's good. Well, thank you very much. This has been classical stuff You should know you can find us online at classical stuff that net you can find us on Twitter at clickel stuff CLS CLS say it like how it's built.
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