220 - Michael Hudson: Debt, Economic Collapse, and the End of Civilization

Patreon: https://bit.ly/3v8OhY7 Michael Hudson is Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City and President of the Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends. He researches domestic and international finance, the history of economics, and the role of debt in shaping class stratification, among many other topics. This is Michael’s third appearance on the show. He was also a guest on episode 180, where he and Robinson discussed neoliberalism, industrial capitalism, and the rentier economy, and on episode 198, where they discussed Marxism, economic parasites, and contemporary debt cancellation. In this episode, Michael and Robinson talk about the history of debt cancellation in the ancient world—including Babylon, Greece, and Rome—how they helped to stave off economic collapse, how the failure to implement them contributed to the demise of these civilizations, and how they might be used in today’s economies. Michael’s most recent book is Temples of Enterprise (ISLET, 2024). This episode was recorded at Austin’s Ale House in Kew Gardens, Queens, New York, and comes highly recommended. Michael’s Website: https://michael-hudson.com Temples of Enterprise: https://a.co/d/a3c53dm Austin’s Ale House: https://www.austinsteakandalehouse.com/ OUTLINE 00:00 Introduction 03:08 Michael’s Interest in Debt 08:23 Why Countries Can’t Pay Their Debts 12:14 Debt Cancellations in the Ancient World 16:51 Can Society Survive Forgiving Everyone’s Debts? 21:30 The Brilliance of Bronze Age Economics 29:19 What Happened When Ancient Harvests Failed? 32:04 The Timeless War of Creditors Against Debtors 37:49 Why States Should Print Their Own Money 41:11 How the Catholic Church Created the Modern State 55:50 On the Origin of Money 01:01:28 On the Economics of Ancient Babylon 01:07:17 Were Ancient Economists Better than Today’s? 01:09:09 The Most Important Prices of an Economy 01:11:39 Uncovering the Collapse of Babylon 01:22:30 Debt and the End of Civilization 01:24:58 Are Ancient Economics the Key to the Future? 01:30:33 Should the Government Forgive Student Loan Debt? Robinson’s Website: http://robinsonerhardt.com Robinson Erhardt researches symbolic logic and the foundations of mathematics at Stanford University. Join him in conversations with philosophers, scientists, historians, economists, and everyone in-between.