It's a website called Pick-Breather, P-I-C-Breather. You get a picture and you pick one that looks interesting to you, and you pick a new tape, and it then mutates it, and you get another picture so it looks like that picture. So on and so on, you just keep hitting tape. What Ken found was that when he had humans hitting a new tape up, these random pictures would come to resemble things like penguins and cars and skulls, really fast.
But if you said to someone, make this random picture into a skull, they could do it. This for me is unutterably profound. So what it says is, that you took novelty crossing the river by feeling stones, produced its novelty in your own life real fast one step at a time, and leads to a quote unquote interesting life. But you can almost never know what you're producing in advance because you're only ever seeing one step at a time.
So that's fake, but the idea is that the attract is reciprocal. Not only are you seeing something that's interesting, or that you're literally attracted to or that you love, you have to step towards it. Greetings, Future Fossils. I'm Michael Garfield welcoming you to episode 221 with a podcast that explores our placing time.
Interpreting that in as many different ways as I like to, I want to focus today's conversation on mythic time, on the cyclical metameth that transects eternity, and the unfolding of diachronic historical or linear time with an arc of development, a heroic journey, as Campbell and others have described it. This is a moment that as I feel out the zeitgeist, it seems that a great many people I know personally, and just even more in the broader landscape of society, have decided to claim their purpose to answer some kind of calling, to quit their job and launch some new bid at a life of Ikigai, that Japanese term for an aesthetic principle whereby your own individual contributions and the expertise link up with what the world wants and is willing to pay for it. So Tom, who just recently left his job at Sapien Capital, and I, who have been wandering the wilderness for the last year after my departure from SFI, and then also more recently from my secret AI startup job, I really didn't have the luxury to even tell you about. Both of us are at the very early stages of a courageous play for something that inacts or instantiates who we are in the Dharma, we seem to embody a little bit more completely and honestly, and in service of the obvious demand for more help, making sense of navigating a bizarre metamorphic era.
Those of you who have been listening for a while know that this has more or less always been the purpose of future fossil spot guests, but as artificial intelligence and other technologies start to go vertical on the innovation curve, I've been thinking more and more about how important it is to focus the inquiry on something a bit more tangible or practical or clearly defined in scope. And as Tom notes in this episode, it's one thing to just follow your curiosity where it leads, and it's another thing to create a rigorous formulation for how that thing is actually helping other people and the biosphere and so on. So today, before we get started, I am delighted to announce that I have started work on a new show that will run as another program on the future fossils, sub-stack and patreon, a show called Humans on the Loop exploring agency and decision-making and human dignity, the wisdom and technology, responsibility and power in the age of intelligence machines. So check the show notes for my updated documentation on the vision for the show and how you can help me bring it forth into the world, as well as many links that we bring up to external sources of inspiring, often life-changing media that Tom and I have consumed and mentioned in this conversation, and of course to Tom's own, extremely solid blog, some of my favorite essays I linked to specifically, and a presentation he recently gave at the Stone Financial Conference.
Tom's a really interesting cat. He seems to occupy this sort of n equals one category of people who are equally comfortable on Wall Street and pondering questions about the afterlife and asking about following one's heart and committing to love as the strange attractor that organizes everything that we do in our lives. So I am willing to wager that if you're listening to this show, you in some way or another feel this kind of attention or tone in your own life right now that you feel this friction between what it is you're doing and what it is you feel you were born to do or the ways that you're optimizing yourself for ever more efficient exploitation of planetary resources as per the structural constraints of our demented society and what it is that your heart wants to be doing with your life and the precious time that we have here. So if that's you then you're in luck because that is what this conversation is all about and with that I'm going to cut you loose into a wonderful recording of a day where I was apparently wearing a shirt with Tom thanks to all of you for hardening the dust as I transition this show into a video for a format.
If you like future fossils and you have the means then I hope you'll join a Daniel Schmachtenberger and many other wonderful people including Joseph Senker, Nat and Kelly, H&M Overland Adventures, Brent Nobles, Alan W and a few hundred other wonderful human beings in regular monthly recurring membership stuff on Patreon and or Substack. It ain't cheap to make sense folks, daring work and I love you and I thank you for being along for this ride. Take care and enjoy this conversation with Tom Owen Morgan, friend and fatass. Tom Morgan it's a pleasure man how are you?
I'm super excited to do this video and where do you suggest we start because you're a podcaster too or you at least post interviews to Substack so like where do you want to start your story? I can give like the can schmills so that people coming in cold and you know what I am, I just want to let things like I feel like I've got that down so I'll do that real fast and then we can move on. I spent about 15 years on Wall Street really enjoyed the first 11. It wasn't one of those cliche stories where like I realized in the beginning it was all solace and do me.
Turns out the finances for us are really quite nice, well-intentioned, intelligent, ambitious and interesting people but I read the cliche I was kicking as I hung on too long. I was well-compensated and extremely comfortable and ended up in a situation where I was stagnant and a lot of people around me were as well. There was a lot of metaphorical and literal death in the form of suicide and people like winding down the clock on their lives in their like late 30s, early 40s which struck me as this absolutely insane human tragedy that no one talks about because those people have money in the bank which again is just like the wildest idea that compassion is somehow zero sum. So I was looking at this from the inside being like this is bananas and my mind and body started to degrade to the extent that I went through the US health care system and no one could provide answers because it was a sickness of the soul as I was to discover later but it all culminated in me basically having a Kundalini awakening stroke psychotic break on a trading floor at the end of 2017.
That turned me into messianic enlightened insufferable for about two months where I was like spiritually bypassing hard and then the very end of 2017 the series of strange events led me into an indestructibly hellish dark night of the soul that lasted just over two years which I would be proud of as much as you want. I was then bailed out of that held by intravenously injected ketamine in about the first couple months of the pandemic managed to rebuild my psyche on the other side of that. At the end of 2020 got hired by a very forward thinking a lovely ultra high network of wealth management called Safeing Capital who saw something insane in me and my writing because I was synthesizing science spirituality and finance and practicality together but they were like do just come do this and I worked for them for three years I recently left to start my own thing called a leading edge but that's how my story and a couple minutes. All right well that's the candid grounding for so much of the writing on what's important that on your blog you do talk about the dark night of the soul quite a bit which I think is why I like you as someone who was flushed out of Boulder Colorado by the light worker psychic bad vibes immune system the social membrane that said I don't want to deal with people who are open about having gone through or currently going through a hard time because it reminds me of all the stuff I'm trying to bypass and I'm very I don't know tantric in my disposition maybe do it a fault of like bring it on one of my favorite people in that world in the Boulder spiritual world is my buddy Stuart Davis and he has this song he loves exploring the human shadow and the bright and dark aspects of the parts of us we don't consciously identify as in his songwriting and he's got a song called I think Wizard or oh my gosh it's been so long but he's got a line in that song that says you wouldn't know love if it sprouted horns and spat shit in your face and so like yeah there's something about that and there's something about you all the way down on street level in finance in in the Wall Street space and frankly also in like podcasting that really speaks to me in a sort of non-dual one-taste kind of way of like finding opportunities to engage with finance bros literally and proverbially vested in transformative spiritual discourse and in showing people who are trained to think of reality in a very sort of constricted aperture way to assign value to a very limited quantitative frame for things and I don't know where I'm going with this except just to say that like I guess I would love to hear you riff on I mean you're the one that introduced me to Bret Anderson and Intimations of a New World View and how Bret puts together this whole thing about the hero's journey and the heroic metamith and Friedrich Nietzsche and all of this stuff and so I feel like that's and you've spoken very well about this stuff and even more eruditely compressed way you've got that fantastic 22-minute talk I will link to in the show notes so I'm not trying to have you reproduce that here but what I am trying to do I hope is to get you to speak to I don't know finding jewels in the gutter be it in society or in one's own mind and soul etc yeah and I'm always right I come across as just a miserable bastard because like my brand is crisis and dark night I was like I don't think I say this enough which is like I got two kids a great home life I'm as happy as I've ever been in my life times a thousand as a result of going through this you know I sound too smug about it but it's just like shit's really good man like I'm really happy but I'm really glad you brought Bret's work into this because that was weirdly or maybe not where I wanted to go next which is like all right people listen to this podcast you're like I'm always listening podcasts me like all right what can I use right and maybe that's because I've got a Wall Street background where it's quite instrumental in that chemistry it's like all right what am I gonna what am I gonna hear on this podcast that's going to make any tangible difference to my wife whatsoever because my opinion interesting is no longer a high enough bar there needs to be at least some utility or some practicality and what I took from Bret's work and his incredible essay intonations of a new world for you though I recommend people look up it's basically the I encountered Joseph Hamblin like 2015 and it was literally my gateway drug I knew that there was a there but I had no idea what that there was and I knew that the hero's journey was important that I couldn't really articulate why and actually like the night I descended into hell a voice in me said I'm ready for the hero's journey which maybe sounds a bit grandiose but perhaps less so when you understand it like it was mostly comprised of crying in the shower the hero's journey and this was the insight I took from Bret is that the hero's journey describes a face change in a complex adaptive system and that makes sense that's why it's ubiquitous and why we tell the story from the hero's perspective is like this how change this is how change happens specifically complexification and this is how you go about it in the best way and therefore we're gonna hold people up as exemplars of this process and call them heroes so like we could always subject to the same process but we can screw it up in more or less dramatic ways and in my case massive screw it up all over the place which is why I feel like qualified to talk about it because I executed on so importantly but just to give like the arc of what I'm actually talking about here because it's mega relevant to the concept of Dark Knights which is the hero's journey starts in Stasis which is when I relate this to the Matrix because it's the one movie everyone's seen and it's probably the best hero's journey and it's related consciousness whereas like Thomas Anderson is in Stasis he's bored and he's a good monkey job but there's that splinter in his mind driving even saying that there's something not right and that reflects the idea that you're in a system where there's something that's breaking the model that everyone can detect but no one is quite sure what it is and that can be in your own life when your body starts to deteriorate because you're not taking the call to adventure seriously enough what is the call to adventure it's the call from young sanimah it's your curiosity starts to get prompted by something in the Matrix it's the message on the computer fraternity literally the anima saying follow the white rabbit you get this call to follow things but due to mikil chris hens eric theory you realize that the right hens beer is emotional and somatic and nonverbal so you start to get this intuition to follow something but your left hemisphere is like well that's incredibly dumb and let's not do that because you're about your life so then you have this period of the refusal of the call when neo-hir is the story the matrix and it's like well that all sounds like nonsense he goes back to work and then he gets interrogated and found by the agents that's the crisis and in real life it's like you're sitting at your desk and you're like i just really want to be like a union analyst whatever it is right but every but every muscle in you is like don't do that dude you're going to work your life and kids you're going to work your life and so you go through this long phase of this drawn-out liminal space of rejecting the call and not taking it seriously enough and don't get be wrong when you take the red or blue pill usually that you're encountering the anomaly that has has been keeping you trapped and then your whole life gets thrown into turmoil you incorporate the anomaly that wasn't in your model and then you emerge at a higher level complexity the one thing about all of this and this is relevant to the matrix as well is i think i know what the anomaly is and this is something that we should start to chop up because i think this is relevant to your history at Santa Fe which is that there's this threshold beyond which most people cannot go because it fries their brains and this might be because it legitimately has ontological shock in it or because it's such a violation of our own principles in society which is that we had this we need a go at intelligence and this ability to connect to whatever you want to call it whether it's the dau or emergence or the universe or god or words that manage to trigger every single person with whatever you use but when you connect to that higher intelligence and you align yourself to it things can go really well in your life but that process tends to involve a death rebirth so i know that's what we did but maybe that's a jumping off point for us to go up later definitely okay so let's glass bead game this whole thing that you just said because there there are ways that over the last several years i've sought to try and actually the one talk i got to give at the Santa Fe Institute shortly after i started working there in it was maybe six months after i started sometime in early 2019 was the notes for that talk are up on my patreon the recording failed unfortunately but it's probably for the best it's like the very early stages of the synthesis of what i was ultimately calling toward a new evolutionary paradigm and one of the things that was showing up to me even very early on in my encounter with being in the hotbed of complex system science research is that a fundamental theory of intelligence based on statistical physics based on information theory there's a lot there that helps us start to create really robust reliable ways of thinking about some of the biggest questions in the life sciences and in the science of consciousness and the study of the mind and one of the things is that we talk about this on the show all the time that information processing or computation which are not understood in exactly the same like i spent years rebelling against what jerene lany are called cybernetic totalism with the idea that the brain is a computer and that we this stuff there is a sense in which that's all absurd and i know that you're going to get into some of that i recently spoke to helena wabbe at the institute of noetic sciences about this for the show about non-physicalist paradigms for consciousness but the point is that it is also completely reasonable to think about life as that which performs computations in this sort of specific formal physics sense with the idea that information is something that is observed it's not just this abstract quantity it's something that is you separate signal from noise by sensing and so there's an observer that's implicit in the formal definition of computation some kind of system that is understanding something that is you know making a distinction what Gregory basin called the difference that makes a difference and when you start seeing that then suddenly you have this alchemical moment but as above so below where like daniel dennet may he rest in peace and michael levin all his colleague at tufts wrote a piece for a magazine a few years ago about cognition all the way down which in which they were basically saying what people like francesco verrilla number to maturana were saying forty fifty years ago which is that cells think the organs think and tissues and like that you can look at all the way down into the the basic biological substrate of your body and see it as thinking and perceiving and agential that your cells have goals that but that it also goes up and who knows how far down it goes i think there's an argument that it goes all the way down to the quantum that the individual waveforms are having this are like a quantum of this property but then there's also up into cities and companies and that's that's why i was so excited jeff rewest on the show because he's done all this work on applying yeah biological scaling to organizations and yeah so like this basically to make a long rant and when you talk about i feel like a lot of the implied philosophical injunction the like rania maria rilca you must change your life that's woven into everything i was learning it as if i had everything people were talking about was in some sense ultimately a kind of a religious statement that there are forms of intelligence that may not be greater in a moral way than our own but are certainly operating on much slower timescales than the human and in which we reside like we are parts of these intelligences that are so vast in time and space that we don't we don't usually notice them and i mean that's the sort of i feel like that's actually the tamest least controversial thing that i mean like it's so easy to rigorously argue that yes there is a greater intelligence and you're part of it and you probably are in communication with it the way that your cells are in communication with your body so like why i'm the wrong guy to ask this question but why isn't it so controversial seems like maybe more an issue of historical contingency and the various types of violence that are efforts to modernize the world and arrive at something like a scientific secular understanding of things have done to these these more intuitive holistic systemic types of thinking like you're talking about yin mo go christen the master and is emissarian how much of what is obviously true from a certain and very common human perspective is just washed out of the accounting systems of the other and in our world more dominant perspective the more reductionist or analytical but there does not have to be a mutual exclusivity or conflict between these two ways of seeing but yeah there is right like i've i found that mcgill christy area has been almost like a joke online about how into it i am but like it's the model with the greatest explanatory power of anything i've ever seen because it just conforms to so much of my lived experience you can question the causality like our brains that way because or is the world that way because of our brains i don't know but the left hemisphere is competitive the right hemisphere is not the left hemisphere lies the right hemisphere does not the one comment from your christ that really brought all this home to me the most was the idea that if you experimentally suppress the brains of that hemisphere for 10 to 15 minutes people start seeing the world as anima so the sun going across the sky giving energy and if you experimentally suppress the brains right hemisphere people start to see living things as dead so other humans become like zombies or furniture or machines right so like right there you have this idea that if we're already too far imbalanced towards the brain's left hemisphere then i think you can argue that we are then we're actually radically more connected to the world and the world is more connected to us and the world is more animate than any of our consensus worldviews would say in the west when this is like totally normal to other cultures because our shry has this great black great podcast with animism is normative consciousness where it's like for 99 percent of human history and for most people else us at the moment like animism is totally normal but yet when western science spawned all these animist cultures they were like well that's magical thinking they're all morons glad the good thing we've got the enlightenment update their dumb worldviews and look well that's got us not very far right well that's not true let's not throw the baby up at the bottom of the water modern science has been pretty damn awesome and after the moon like norbaison just said is it better to colonize the moon or to worship it depends if there's not anything right don't be careful for economics it's not like if you want to be something really amazing optimistic and i'm sure you have already it's richotarnas is eppelog to the passion of western mind and it's like 20 pages more it's available for free online and the last four pages is where basically talks about the masculine and feminine and i know it's problematic to genderize aspects of our psyche but he talks about the enlightenment imbalanced towards the masculine as basically giving us these incredible analytical powers of discernment so that we're going to have this hard pivot back to the feminine but from a position of a stronger egoic base so that when the magic comes back into the world we'll be able to interact with it in a much more forceful egoic and a gestic way if we don't screw it up which is obviously an absolutely monumental if and i really like that framing because it fits me Gilchrist's right hemisphere left hemisphere right hemisphere cadence as well but it also allows you to look around at the dumpster fire that we created and be like well actually maybe this was a part of the plan so there you did the thing i was going to prompt you to do which was to take all of this cerebral gibber jabber and weave it back into the peat lining of your own lived experience of going through hell and also just generally looking into the dirt or the refuse or the repressed or the avoided unexamined for investment opportunity not necessarily just financial but as this place where one will go from the nigrato of the alchemical process and see that transmutation and alchemical gold so yeah i would love to hear more on your own encounter with the anomaly with the agent of destiny and how that took shape for you and then how you've come to make sense of that yeah yeah we should talk about money in a minute as well because that's such an interesting topic in this context but i had lots of weird ways that i encountered the anomaly but i think let's keep it instrumental and be like how do i interact with it which is the synchronicity is the primary method with which i calibrate my path it's it's an imperfect mistress but it works better than most of the alternatives i find ways to flow on a daily basis but flow in service not just wing suit stardiving like i write for four hours every morning then i do feel like i'm working in service of something as much as i hate what service and everything seems to be lying around that in like a very very juicy juicy way but my life is better than it was a month ago which was better than it was a year ago so what was it for you because i i've had far more limited interaction with the belly of the particular beast from which you expelled yourself but i do remember around that same time in 2017 i went and spoke at the commonwealth bank of australia innovation lab and i was envious at the time i was like wow look at all of these brilliant creative people working in this high impact high leverage international reach environment in a part of this enormous organization that is devoted specifically to innovation and they're getting paid really well and how cool is that and i was like a stray dog they let in to give treats and like had this i don't know nine hour encounter supposed to be 45 minutes and then we all went across the street for beers and everyone who went across the street with me for beers afterward had left their job within like two months and i found out that my friend andrew despie who had invited me later was like yeah these people were all miserable and you came in and stirred some stuff up that prompted a lot of reflection on people and people saying you know what i'm sick of this but somehow i have not managed to do this very well for myself in my own life and i've hung on in these very dark toxic intractable places and that's what i love about seeing this whole thing about the way that campbell and yung and bill people talk about what happens to people if they do not answer the call what happens if like how all the opportunities for your guardians spirits to prank you and fuck with you and make things hard until you're willing to leave the comfort of your fear hole and spit out on your grand adventure and it's just so ubiquitous a framework anyway i just want to bret help me with this a lot bret again bret Anderson where he's like and this was in the 20 minute video you referenced where this concept of differentiation and integration where it's like and your business will get this more than most but like the universe is trending towards complexity and like look outside obvi right and we no longer guarantee heat death and like i don't know much about any this stuff all do i care it just seems intuitively correct so like what's the definition of complexity something with highly differentiated parts that are all integrated into the hole like your body is comprised of like an unlimited number of highly differentiated parts that are all integrated into the hole like okay that'll make sense if that's about so below if this whole thing's racked all the way up and all the way down your role in the broader reality that we inhabit whatever the hell that is but it's one where we have to work always we have to pay the bills it's for you to become the most michael that you can be in that there'll be things that this is one of my focus of being on curiosity for such a long time there'll be things that interest you particularly you that are mental and don't interest anyone else but also your relationship to them puts you in front and the more you inhabit that ecological niche as bill clocking sees it right the more evolved you become i think people can get that it's like oh so it's play for me and it's work for everyone else i think people get it i think what people don't get is the idea of the integration which is that you have to be doing something that's integrated into the universe's grandpa because even that last sentence probably triggers antibodies in like 95 percent of the population and with the reason it sounds like bullshit but my whole point is that this is even a low conviction for you of mine it just happens to be the way i live my life which is that if you offer the correct sacrifices based on an open heart and those gifts that you cultivated to the universe and the universe is like yes please michael more of that and you get a synchronicity or you'll just get some cash money or lots of clicks right you start getting engagement but i've been working coaching people for the last four or five years with different degrees of success but the one thing i've noticed literally 100 percent of the time is that you have to make the first step of the threshold but then an opportunity opens up orthogonal to you and so you have to make these constant teeny little or sometimes really big little steps outside like what creative act as much like creative can i send out into the world as a sacrifice and then see if there's like a Marco Polo where something comes back that's like that for me in terms of the felt sense of the synchronicity is unmistakable have nobody held on that last i don't even know if that knowledge would have helped me in the dark night in the soul but i know it's how it works now and certainly my life is much more enjoyable because even if everything i said is bullshit which it might well be this sounds a bit bad news right but i get three or four people a week messaging me saying how much my writing has helped them that's real right like at the moment i have zero salary because i've just started new business but i still get three to four people emailing me a week to be like you really help me by talking about your experiences and your journey and surfs this information i never enough to wallpaper a wall in my bedroom and if it wasn't the most narcissistic thing ever i might actually do it to motivate myself and when i was on Wall Street people liked me but no one ever emailed me ever to be like dude what you said then about apple stock price changed my life and one of my buddies who left before me said something to me which was i'm giving people information but it's information that helps them and that seems like such a simple thing but i wasn't doing it and now we have i keep a folder of those things i feel like if it's on the computer it's less of an offense it's just like self-esteem porn i just went over there but yeah okay so the what you're pointing to there's something came up and listening to talk about this i'll keep this brief i think a lot about this talk William ruin Thompson gave in the lindis foreign tapes that i'll link to in the show notes on exodus as revolution and looking at the book of exodus and the jewish peoples escape from slavery under the pharaoh of egypt and out into the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness and they were after a promised land but didn't know how to get there and there's something you were talking about in the process of like dilating yourself to feel the synchronicity to sense the opportunities you're not necessarily saying i am going to achieve this but you are still motivated by something you are still i've got a daughter so i've watched frozen to a lot there's that whole thing of like into the unknown where like elsick can hear the voice and doesn't know where it's taking her except it's taking her north beyond the comfort but there's another thing which is that there's another way in which there's great clarity in these moments you may not know where you are getting to and you don't know how long it's going to take you to get there and you cannot exactly reason through it like davis noden in the kineffin framework talks about there's a difference between complex obvious chaotic and like an expert domain where you can easily optimize and select 75% of his model is don't even bother trying to assign an expert to this situation because either it's too obvious to need one or it's non-computable so i would just love to hear you on this seeming paradox of what it means to get clarity about the direction of one's life and to see things in a way that allows you to take what is otherwise a leap of faith into something that is just as opaque and mysterious as it is clear to you at a revelation a few weeks ago and i would have published this piece at some point it's really short and i think it says something but it's basically like i got invited to a really exclusive financial conference and started the year and i actually spent three months preparing making that 20-minute presentation for it and it was a great forcing function for the five-minute presentation that i did it's owned that went like a wee bit of a riddle and i was sitting in this room for eight hours a day listening to people talk about finance and i was like this is some one stream it's not mine anymore i'm out and so like that was a big catalyst for getting me out but the thing that i noticed in the presentation is that 80% of the graphical representation of the world is xy charts right it's this very flat two-dimensional thing and once you see it you can't unsee it but basically it's the water that we swim in both tech and finance and obviously that's a two-dimensional world when number go up is pretty much the primary thing right and so if you manage your life to a line chart number go up and up and up and to the right is the only thing that you need so what happens if you add a third dimension to that you get a fitness landscape and suddenly fitness landscape tells you have to go down to go up and it tells you that the peak that you're at might not be the right peak and it says that you have to be looking in 360 degrees so that third dimension changes everything what happens if you add a fourth dimension time that static landscape becomes a c and actually the more things are changing in the harsh of the environment the more the c turns into a stormy c and so suddenly you've got these four dimensions all right what happens if you add a fifth dimension what the hell is a fifth dimension a fifth dimension is an attractor it's what the Polynesian wayfinder uses to get through the storm which is something that's relational to that okay so what does that mean i'm i often think about ken stanley's ai research if you run into this okay it's great anyone listening to this there's a website called pick breeder pic breeder and you get like a grid of pictures oh you know this okay great you get a grid of pictures and you pick one that looks quote unquote interesting to you click mutate and it then mutates it and you get another grid of pictures that looks like that picture so and so on you just keep hitting the tape what ken found was that when you get humans hitting them you take up these random pictures would come to resemble things like penguins and cars and skulls really fast but if you said to someone make this random picture into a skull they couldn't do it this for me is unutterably profound so what it says is pursuit of novelty crossing the river by feeling stones produces novelty in your own life real fast one step at a time and leads to a quote unquote interesting life but you can almost never know what you're producing in advance because you're only ever seeing one step at a time so that's faith but the idea is that the attractor is reciprocal not only are you seeing something that's quote unquote interesting or that you're literally attracted to or that you love you have to step towards it otherwise you're just orienting in whatever direction like oh that thing is interesting right and i guess now i want to roll my big problem with a lot of the content that you and i are adjacent to is that they think interesting is it not and it's not so like ufo's right ufo's are really interesting topic but i think everything should be in this three stage process where it's like where are maps of reality incomplete what needs to be added and then how are we going to act differently as a result of fitting in that map once again normally is in the map how are you going to act differently and for me ufo's right okay so we don't think ufo's exist we find out ufo's do exists how do we act differently apart from maybe being enslaved right like i it's for me it's like an interesting topic but it goes in the too hard pile because although it's interesting there's no action whereas to go back to the example i just gave like okay we're managing in two dimensions but attractors are a thing and you experience attractors by literally what you're attracted to or curious about if you move towards those your life will change that for me it's like hyper actionable and you can do that in your own life in like some reasonably specific ways and this is the concept that i'm looking to produce and elevate and cultivate right now because you need those three stages okay so i'm actually going to i love this and you whether you meant to or not you provoked me to respond to your rhetorical question because terence mckenna used to compare his union interpretation of the ufo as a symbol of the destiny of human evolution which may very well not be a complete sort of adequate interpretation of the phenomenon but it's certainly part of it certainly part of the conversation that's been going back with this since the beginning of this in the united states and the west roughly a hundred years ago and mckenna used to talk about the way that the ufo appears at a certain moment in history in a really pout like intense way when we are starting to become aware of ourselves as a planetary phenomenon right when we move out of a principle concerned with nation states and into global information structures and governance and the everyone downstreamness of nuclear war and all of these different concerns and said it's like being adolescent and you're a boy or girl and you discover the opposite sex and at first it seems like oh god like you realize that the kid you were hanging out with your best friend is suddenly an alien that there is an other like i was six surrounded by girls as a little boy i wasn't thinking about it and suddenly one day there was this thing it was like oh you're and it wasn't just me it was them too they were like oh i don't know if we can just go on treating this as we got to think about what next and that that what nextness i think against davis wrote a great piece about the phenomenon and i may have shared it with you already i will certainly put it in notes yeah that phenomenon as is this a control system or is this a developmental driver that leverages ontological shock in order to get us into something else and so i think yeah like whatever else one might say in your scaffold you just laid out the okay now whatness like what is this for how do we respond i think that we're doing it right now if anything in that staphrod beer sense of the system is what it does then what has happened here is that the appearance of the ufo regardless of its ontological status has forced a democratization of conversation on the ontology of anomalous phenomena and that seems like a very crucial thing to be going on right now that will have immense economic results one way or another like whatever it is that we decide here and it's not like an either or but clearly there's got to be some sort of z-axis like you're laying out like the fitness landscape oh there's a fourth there's a fifth dimension keep going how many dimensions can we actually hold like how much can our attention actually manage here and so i just want to say that like yeah for maybe not for a lot of people because there are more pressing concerns but there is something radically imminent for me and relevant about the ufo to the extent that the human of the 21st century is so hyper connected to everyone else on average through our digital media that we feel grief at the conflict in the middle east or tsunamis in indonesia or these kinds of things and then now it's like okay if those people on the other side of the planet if insects have consciousness of scientists are finally willing to go there and say oh the trees are intelligent and insects are aware and so on then where is the where is the quote unquote alien like what is the next thing and so it's like in Star Trek the cool thing about Star Trek i heard in the the post-show self-congratulatory ready room thing that they do a little video podcast after every episode and one of the folks that had the guy who was just brought on to play a breen in the latest season there's like the most archvillains of the whole thing it's like it's just an heirloom thing and you come into this show like you're standing on layer after layer of earlier series of Star Trek having processed things like where the original series the thing everyone remembers about that is Kirk kisses a guru you know it's like that's the the moment and then next generation is like well there's a cling on the bridge there's a cling on Starfleet officer and then you get to Picard years later and it's like oh now we have sympathetic Borg or like Voyager they keep pushing the envelope and i don't know so anyway i just think that there is something utilitarian and urgently so about pushing the envelope and that's what actually what i love about your work is there were specific writings in which you very skillfully interrogate people's notion of what is and is not worth their attention as a possible investment opportunity but that's it right so i had a really enjoyable conversation about disinterestist spouses right my wife is like mega successful and just doesn't give a shit about any of this right like she would have switched off less than one minute into this podcast and this used to really annoy me and now i'm like oh okay this is a signal and the signal is effectively one of my good friends minus of money who wrote an incredible book proof of spiritual phenomena she was on a podcast the other day and stuck in the stop and then they were like the degree of your psychedelic integration is reflected in your relationships and i was like ah i kicked me in and that's right like you've got to bring this stuff into the world and i think that's the integration component right which is that yeah the stopping is really interesting but how am i walking towards it right and the idea of ontological shock i think is really worth digging into it really powerful because what i am saying with a lot of my work is that the ontological shock is lessened if you're willing to take a lot of these ideas on board but also work walk towards them in certain ways to do these experiments with creative acts to consider that there are things outside of your unvelte that could be calling to you and to have more confidence to just incrementally more confidence to pursue these in the real world and without burning your entire life down these are not like practicalities but they are practicalities rather than just the what our community does which is like wow isn't this interesting i'm like cool but maybe that's why you don't have any money right like for all of these guys which is like one interesting is not enough and two you've got to have some action related to it maybe that's your most big guy coming out i don't well okay so that's the thing i was actually just sharing allison gopnik's work on the explore exploit tension with some friends with whom i'm trying to organize something to move this out of the courtship phase and into some serious dating between people who share very strong alliance at a values and want to know what it might look like to work together on a professional basis and what and so much of the first week that we've been talking about this there's been this really intense need for interpersonal processing on precisely this thing where like some of us don't have jobs or are willing to give up jobs and then put ourselves in very precarious circumstances in order to pursue this collaboration and others have a fallback and have a little bit more freedom and so there's been this thing and other some of us have chronic health issues and some of us don't and so on there are all these ways that people come into conversations with different kinds of privilege and different kinds of hardship that shape the way that we assign value or whatever and so like when so many of our armchair philosopher friends are struggling and yeah the question is like we need each other we need a balance between the people who are dedicated to the concealing it or like again bred Andersen talks about this spectrum between idulism yeah autism and schizophrenia that there are these abstract holistic thing that you know forgets to cash the check they got at work and then there is the in our society often but not always high functioning person is very good at staying on task and that's what you're talking about in relationship with the conversation you and i had was about how it seems like those two kinds of people tend to seek each other out as a way of complementing the missing frequency or whatever but yeah it is a challenge it's a challenge that you and i talk about a lot to make some of this stuff more legible the thing that we got to was one of the folks in our meetings kept interrupting people and urging them to get to the point because we only have so much time to figure this stuff out and then other people were pushing back and saying well actually as soon as we understand each other then action becomes easy and right now we're at a point in the cycle where it's important to tolerate some noise and confusion it's an investment in long-term efficient collaboration like in arriving in the right attractor basin rather than trying to make things happen in the state where we've rushed the process and yeah in like a universal way but i would love to hear you talk about the perennial touch points in the show kronos and kyros time and timing i've already gone on too long let's go back to money because it informs the rest of that question nice really interesting i've been in the money world for 20 years and for the last three i've been around mega billionaires and this is amazing dynamic where you basically have men mostly with extraordinary amounts of wealth that represents safety optionality and software in all ways that i think are deeply sympathetic easy to hate those people but whatever as well as everyone's like wow i don't think of a way and it's just like what is shitty proposition right like would you i mean maybe you would but i believe that the sales pitch has not been made to these quote-unquote hyper agents as to why deploying their money is valuable because on the other side of the spectrum at the last 12 months i've met let's say 80 people who are doing valuable things in the archetypal feminine creative fertile generative aspects whether it was practitioners or thinkers the living hands and mouth or worse right and that discrepancy is super interesting because some of those people are allergic to money and ineffectual and like just not going to make it right but i would say more than 30 percent are gifted and it's just the market clearing price hasn't been set so i'm like well why not and i think it's because i literally said months and months thinking about this where it's like all right what does the man who has everything want and usually they've hit a wall right that they're no one's going to change their mind while they're accumulating wealth and momentum but mostly like around about i'm 43 around about my age people take 10 years people hit a wall of some kind and then they aren't offered an alternative trajectory that inversion itself if you know what we talked about right but if people could be shown that they were both practices and people that could help them with that miserable and painful inversion process i feel that people would be willing to deploy their capital from this dead masculine to this very living feminine i've spoken to like a lot of people who are very hot in this team i'm sure to see who i'm not going to count as a friend he's like there's a five to ten year wave zunami coming when people that can show that they actually generate that value to very rich people in the form of returning into purpose and aliveness and wisdom can capitalize on that without being like rent seeking or disingenuous i mean like i just met my life in korea on my own project but this is possible and i think this is insanely exciting because the amount of static money is in the trillions particularly in the families like it's in this isn't a private equity proposition this isn't a public equity proposition this isn't a venture capital proposition but it is a family office proposition where it's like you're confused and you've got an air coming in of some age right now that is mega confused and you don't want to hand in the keys when he has no what he's doing with his life and again i'm using the key pronoun because it's mostly his and i just feel that there's this supply and demand mismatch that is waiting to be filled and if it's 0.00001 percent of that wealth it's going to make people stunningly wealthy in service of something amazing so this is what i talked about with roland harwood and i think episode 191 and robert pointin in 196 because both of them occupy this space that i would call like b2b cycle pump to where they're like caron across the river of souls for people in the c-suite and i feel it like how do i graduate from being the snotty nose brat running around underfoot in my dad's travel industry annual conferences to being somebody that can perform a kind of hermetic and hermeneutic assist for these folks who have done remarkably well to optimize themselves in a particular way and it's so funny because like over the years i've been working in the festival spaces and psychedelic underground and all of this sort of weird messy countercultural stuff if you can even talk about the counterculture anymore there's a lot of resentment like when the occupy was in its thriving moment and there was a lot of 99 percent versus the 1 percent stuff and i was like well okay that's still a sort of paranoid fantasy you're still not making the robert aunts and wilson turn from paranoia into meta-noia where you recognize that you're part of the globalist conspiracy because you're no less hooked into all of these supply chains and speculative finance systems you know maybe lower down on the power curve but we are all something that the planet is doing and none of us have escaped the causal graph of being inside the planet including its atmosphere and so on but it's like none of us have ever meaningfully left this thing that can be regarded as a single entity so why are we thinking about it in this way other than the fact that we have to overcome a bias based on an increasingly apparently obsolete myth of an evolutionary origin environment and yeah so this thing about these relationships i think that this actually comes a lot also from the the world of nonprofit development where you're trying to recruit people into the mission of an organization and these are people that have some kind of philanthropic concern they're not expecting a financial return on an investment they're doing like jim talked about on your show they're aspiring to carny g levels of giving back in some way even if it is arguably in some of these cases anyway just to make themselves feel better or whatever the point is there's so many different motivations all of them can be recruited into something more ecologically and socially beneficial and yeah it isn't saying how much static wealth is just hanging out and there's like i live like a bucky feller talking about being the trim tab on an airplane not the whole rudder just that little rudder on the big rudder where are the points of leverage like if you were listening to this and you consider yourself a competent you know not necessarily really a competent systems thinker right then here's an opportunity to flex your left brain and ask yourself where can i do the least to accomplish the most in the bridge building or place making a place keeping work of healing maulick right like healing the coordination problems and that starts with something my dad talked about in his 40 plus years of working and travel he said he became a really ardent advocate for citizen diplomacy through tourism and so like whatever can be said about tourism and colonialism etc there is this other thing there which is that through opening oneself to an encounter with the other quote unquote traveling and really seeing the places you go and the people who live there not just in sores selling yourself in the constructed niche of comfort that is possible in modern travel but really allowing yourself to move over the land and through the culture space then you realize everyone actually wants the same thing which is a better world for their kids we may disagree about the fine points but suddenly you have the seed crystal of a we and that can be enough to move billions of dollars so yeah i would love for you to talk more about again money and time and the way that these things are and are not appropriately joined in our thinking well we think to say but feel like you'll get it i had this very short variance and i tried to reinvent myself multiple times in quite a quote minical directions at one point i panicked and i went back into a company that sold credit card data to hedge funds and it was like everything that i enjoyed about the previous job selling investment research but strips of even the ability to synthesize because it was all just selling data to quants right so it was a great job meaning no disrespect in my employers it was a great business but it was just the opposite of what i should have been doing in my life and while i was there sitting at my desk for 12 hours a day completing the internet i read slot addings and meditations on mocha and it was like a spiritual experience for me it was the scariest thing i've ever had and it still is the scariest thing i've ever read because at that point i felt like i was experiencing mocha as an archetypal force and for those of you that don't know like mocha is the god of zero some games a carthedinian god of child sacrifice and you talk about the better world for our children and mocha gives you power and all he asks for his life right and i was sitting there at 12 hours a day and was profoundly mentally ill and was having a son and i was destroying myself for the sake of the money that i thought i was earning him to give him comfort and obviously this is like an impossible moral balance but i felt at that time i was literally surrendering life for money and this is the extreme of the dead masculine money energy but also like to the point people don't know how to then deploy that capital in a way that isn't just wasting it with no quote unquote ROI what's deeply strange is that after the ketamine took me a long time for my brain to start working again and even longer for me to be able to start speaking and i'm talking like months and the first article that i felt like i had the mental strength to read was Scott Alexander's studies on slack which i did not know this at the time was released in may of 2020 and is the companion article to meditations on mocha and because Scott's got less in the rationalist it's much harder to uh it's not as clear what it's about but it's essentially about this idea that if you create space in a system instead of that being dead space something can grow into it but you actually saw that in the pandemic where people were at four moa working a hundred hours a week and suddenly if they even make a ten percent gap in that often they're unconscious we just kick the fucking doors in and be like michael you are wasting your life you have made horrible decisions and i'm gonna burn your life down right now and that's obviously like a mega extreme example but i think it goes back to like us or what are we using the money for i think you use the money to run small experiments if you're a mega rich person this into this or even like a comfortable person that's just unhappy think about how you use that capital to run experiments with transnational practices used in context of lineage exploring topics that you care about and putting something on the line if not financially at least reputationally well yeah i mean that's all i got just to sympathize you're right i feel like things got real for me when i became a parent and i'm only now over five years into this at a point where i felt capable of stepping out of the vampiric contract that you're talking about and again i mean that with no disrespect to former employers yeah right like i am someone very motivated to align myself with mission-driven work and i believe very strongly in every project i've ever been a part of at the same time it's a very personal thing to be out of alignment with something like that or to have to question yourself about why is this so hard why do i feel like i am enduring this thing or why don't i love this job or why doesn't this job love me or why am i really here and i've worked for some great people and i've had some really great conversations with people about the compromise inherent in it's like a spy right like there's a reason they tend to pick spies without kids because they don't want people to have leverage over you and when you have that really intense profound biological mandate to care for something someone it can be just an idea right it can be the muses telling you you need to finish writing this book doesn't have to be a person but as soon as you have that thing and everything else is just like well i'm just working at McDonald's so that i have the money to write this book then things get exquisitely difficult and i think we can see a lot of civilization as a an attempt to reconcile this tragic tension yeah the quote i like most tamasu people including myself is from karlyon which is there's no greater burden of child compared than the underlight of the parrot and this is weird sorry but the i really struggled for a long time as to whether to leave my last job at safety capital they're good people and it was like a dream job but for me it was like energetically starting to stagnate and i write for a living about respecting the power of curiosity like they always put you in a position to see if you follow your own advice but i've isolated for a very long time because i was being so handsomely paid to do a job that was ludicrously amazing it was just no longer quite right and anyway the morning after i finally decided definitively to quit and then did quit that's something like into Monday morning i had a dream and in the dream there was a UFO and i'm not a UFO guy but just in the dream was a UFO and the UFO stopped in front of me and beamed to me full of energy and at which point i woke up like jazz up full of energy and i wrote an article and that article was called the great betrayal and it's almost like you guys can go check it out but basically it was about this idea that's probably the most ludicrous idea that we can consider and if you bring it up to people it makes them so crazy angry and this is the idea the idea is that if you manage to find that intersection of differentiation integration and the leap into it you would be helped and it's not a privileged thing right people respond with okay that's okay for you because x no the guy cleaning the grill at Taco Bell the same applies to him if you can find that mix whatever it is he will be helped and particularly in this culture if you raise the possibility that whatever reality we inhabit is actually intelligent enough and has enough agency to arrange a fed of ed for us rather than an abyss that would change that would be the anomaly that destroys the current paradigm that basically if everyone realized overnight that they could actually follow their bliss right zero accountants no one working in certain industries like we're talking full reconfiguration of the global supply chain and that's why it's such a crazy arithical idea that at the moment seems to be given only to be with me and i'm like fine i'll speak to those people first right i'll be that person first but this idea that there's a great concept of a satan in Dante's Inferno and was in the final circle up to his chest and ice and his sting was betrayal and i think about that is betrayal of love that we basically all have this love we can align with that is the pursuit of what we love in terms of that interesting as i did if you have the faith to pursue what you love you will be set free and if you don't you will be frozen in ice because you are betraying God's love and your reward for that is no flow i'm glad you brought us to love i wanted us to get here i'm going to take a short detour just because you brought up the up to your chest and ice i had a real moment i don't know maybe 15 years ago it was one of those things that happens when you're on mushrooms camping and you have a small idea that there's just enough the attention manifold has been flattened enough that you can really just drift into that and give it serious consideration which was that i was reminded because we were camping next to this tree that forked into two trees that a field ecology class i had taken in college taught me in a tree counting exercise we did out at this nature preserve in Kansas there has to be a way to break up the living complexity of the forest into a spreadsheet so that you can do things you can say hey there are this many trees in the forest of these kinds and then how we encourage diversity and so on in this area how do we conserve it the way that forestry rangers and field ecologist count trees is if the tree splits into two trunks below your chest line it's two trees if it splits above your chest line it's one tree and i was like well that's funny it's like you're gonna get a different count if you send a five foot tall person out into the woods and if you send a six foot tall person into the woods but there was something beautiful about that that really stuck me for a while which is that it's at the level of the heart a person must make these discernments about how we're gonna count one tree or two one world or two and so yeah with that i would love for you to bring us to a glorious conclusion with your reflections on love i climax if you will yeah i'm actually writing a piece of a moment revisiting this theme of hearts there's got to be a there with all this right like love is the worst word on earth because we use the same word for people we want to have sex with about how we feel about our labrador right like the so little linguistic precision on my favorite probably untrue stats is that sanskrit has 96 words for love right think about how they can calibrate to their environment if indeed attractors are a thing and what you are attracted to is the best guide of where you should go in life my my favorite quotes in my life is follow your bliss indoors will open when you have a wall right follow the attractor see if there's a synchronicity you're on the right track i believe and i've been able to find sketchy research and support that the heart is some kind of a electromagnetic transmitter or as at least connected to those emergent forces in a way that the brain may be merely interprets and it can't be a coincidence that every single idiom in our culture about open hearted ball hearted whole hearted hearts desire everything associated to relevance character quality path truth all situates around the heart center which is connected to your brain's right hemisphere it's connected to the outside world there's something there maybe any individual one of these studies is bullshit but all of them being wrong and every indigenous culture being wrong and every indigenous culture that talks about chest centric cognition is it all wrong and one of the things i like is that whenever something gets called pseudoscience for me it's now like a mega-strize-owned effect and like all of these heart centric things like labeled pseudoscience synchronous and labeled pseudoscience integrated information theory labeled pseudoscience like the shell breaks more big resonance theory is pseudoscience where i'm hand-called pseudoscience i'm like great all them might be radically incomplete but they're super interesting and they're pointing to something and all the heart shit that's labeled pseudoscience i'm like yeah the studies are probably wrong but there's something there they're only making me want to learn but oh oh don't read that book you say okay great don't hit that red button and it all revolves around this idea of love and that love is an attractor and love tethers us to the world in the way of that McGillquist that's sense right like our head abstracts us from it and our heart brings us back to it um one of the strangest things that's ever happened to me was during my kungalini awakening experience i had full sensory kind of explosion that my in a monologue turned off i saw like energy flipping off the trees it was really wild but one of the things was if i ever said anything it wasn't true i felt it in my heart as pain and i was like shit am i just always turning off this sensitivity because obviously i must be right and it was like this sudden dissonance it was like oh you're saying something that doesn't conform to truth and that was a big deal for me in a state with me ever since even though unfortunately i don't get the little wiggles every time i lie so you just did the thing you quit your job yeah land us if you will please with a song about what your heart is telling you to do i mean you have danced around this the whole conversation yeah yeah but uh now's your chance to pitch all my broke friends on your new project oh thankfully it's not very expensive it's called the leading edge and it's content and the community and the content is going to be something that dare i say it i think is relatively unique which is that it's not to conform to the three stages of the hero's journey brought the understood which is like where is our model of reality incomplete most people can do that it's tedious diagnosis right but what needs to be added what's the anomaly that's incredibly interesting and to be honest normally people can do that i'm not saying i can do that but i'm saying it's like i'm not a lot of people that have and then third point what are you gonna do differently now your worldview is shifted what are you gonna do differently if you discover that reincarnation might actually be more of a thing than you thought it was based on lots of surprisingly strong empirical research that you're gonna change is that gonna is that gonna influence your relationships like you've got to get to that third stage otherwise it's just quote unquote interesting without movement it's like turning on your right hemisphere without using a left hemisphere to walk towards it so all my content and my interviews and videos and everything i'm gonna do is going to try and stay strictly to that format otherwise it's not enough and my wife doesn't like it and then there's going to be a community which is to hold people i went through a transition in Manhattan with no idea what resources i could trust no idea what modalities i could trust no idea what practitioners i could trust i compared it to having a person in the 15th century a lot of people now are going to go and have their doors blown off by psychedelics and then they come back and they're like what's any of that shit true and my other eye was gets on your bunch of stuff and i'm really gonna quit my job and i'm like dude let's just put some science around this and actually science is not as far away from this stuff as anyone thinks it is it's just we haven't been in school for a while and the stuff that we were taught in school doesn't have any anomalies incorporated into it but it's the community to hold people and then there'll probably be a few people at different levels where i have very limited capacity that want a very involved process where i can connect them to the people in my network that i think you can trust because i think trust is the one thing you need in this container that there's a lot of charters out there and there's a lot of really bad people that take very dangerous psychotechnologies out of any itch and hook them to the highest bidder and i don't want to have a financial like involvement in that interaction necessarily what i do want to do is provide a container for that process so that people can trust the people that they're introduced to at least one level different from like a kind of other tells them to go do iFS with this dude yeah on that note if you're hearing this and you've recently had a profound high-dose psychedelic experience or some sort of spiritual breakthrough and you're feeling vulnerable and receptive then have i got some coaching for you no but seriously like i do actually trust you as a wayfinder with this stuff and i trust that people will find great value and assistance in you joining the ranks of this very needed planetary interstitium of transition i won't call it management but transition facilitation the last thing because we have this you can answer this with a haiku so much what you said points to the default closing question of future fossils is what changes if you start from the assumption that the ancestors and the descendants that the future is in the room with you right now show us where it touched you on the doll like this what happens to your life concretely if you decide that okay fine time is a river but the river is not just like a standing wave like there is an ocean and there is a spring at the top of the mountain so what is what changes for you if you lean into the future and its denizens being present now it's the difference between time being your enemy and time being your friend i'm not sure there's anything more important than that you know what it's like for both of those things where it's like you're counting every minute but you're desking just watching your life take away or you just don't know how to fill your time and you get stuck in dissonance right even people that aren't working desk jobs and then when times your friend when you're in flow and you're in meaningful flow not just flow seeking not just sensation seeking that's all the difference in the world and that's the gift on the other side of this job the beautiful place to roll credits Tom good much for being on the show man thanks again for listening everyone i hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as i did one more announcement before we split my friends and i who recently co-facilitated the embodied ethics in a i course including Andrew Dunn and turquoise sound and several other wonderful people are now co-moderating a new discord server on wisdom and technology that i hope will act as a kind of social reactor for everyone interested in the kind of concerns that i mentioned surrounding mining project humans on the loop you can find a link to that server as well as to the og future fossils discord server and facebook group in the show notes and we would love to have you in there there's a ground swell of caring and intelligent people starting to cluster around these topics and i feel a strong calling to do whatever i can to help encourage a livelier commons in this space so yeah join in on that and again if you want to help me get humans on the loop to cruising altitude or just help me keep the lights on here at future fossils so that you can continue listening to my kids screaming in the background every episode i appreciate all forms of support financial or otherwise stay tuned in the weeks to come we have episodes coming up with timothy morten about their extraordinary new book hell in search of a christian ecology as well as josh with decaglio on scale theory helena wabbe of the institute of noetic sciences on non-physicalist theories of consciousness andres gomez amylsin of qualio research institute on fundamental psychedelic research and much much more michael garfield dot sub stack dot com and with that take care y'all