Hey everybody and welcome to classical stuff you should know sorry about the short hiatus But we just weren't in the same city and now we are back in the city of Austin again after Christmas And we're here to record more classical things and my name is a j Hindenburg I'm here with Thomas Maggie hi and grand balance hello And our whole podcast is about bringing you the stuff of the classical world in a way that is easy to get down right a spoonful of the classics How's the rest that song go just like helps the medicine yeah, just like white pasta. Yeah Little kids will eat it. I think you're putting sugar in your pasta is that no You just dust it with some confused sugar. Yeah my favorite Today we're talking about botany.
Yeah, we're talking about botany. We're gonna talk about growing plants I mean obviously when we talk about things from the ancient world me doing a short story from 1938 I think probably falls under the camera. Yeah last millennium. Yeah, this is a little millennium ago Yeah, just as long as it's a little while ago.
Yeah, we're gonna talk about a short story. We'll get to that eventually Gentlemen, we just passed into a new year happy 2023. I think we're we are hello. We made it How did you phrase it earlier?
You were like surprised that we made it to 2023. I just remember what you're okay Well, do you all set New Year's resolutions? Is there anything you all do like what is special about the beginning of the year for you all? Nothing we do big like we do a big state of the union in the family But we sit together and we talk about like alright What are our kind of goals for finances?
What are our goals for like doing stuff together like playing like a real play tennis this year? What are our goals for what kind of plants we want to grow garden that kind of stuff man and I sit down We do a big old a big old thing and then Emergency room yes, we did. Yes, we did what happened all my dad cut his thumb with a chain with a chain saw table saw No, but he's okay, but I think that was a New Year's thing. There's more Christmas thing.
Yeah, that's pretty close But it's unfortunate. I'm sorry. Do you have anything in the way of traditions around that New Year's time? Not really I don't if I have to wait till New Year's to set a resolution then I'm not living my life right.
Hmm. I don't know Maybe that's maybe that's the wrong way to look at it I feel like this is gonna start a whole conversation We don't wanna go down. Oh sure triathlete now. Yeah, but I've always kind of wanted to train for stuff and that's good goal So I run I buy that actually that's too cold to swim.
I've been running okay for you Well, I think it's probably you know not that not that people need to wait until the New Year to set resolutions the way AJ is talking about obviously you can make changes whenever you want to think the New Year's like a common time when people think about resolutions and things like that So you know that comes in as one reason for the story We're gonna go into the others that we got an email from a listener who asked us to do this episode I think they're patron I think they're not you mean a lot of patrons mad I just give us your money I think they are It just reminded me of the story that I've asked for us to cover the story And it's one that I like but the the connection for me is that the story It's a short story by Tolkien called leaf by niggle It was a story that was important for me many many years ago in my move from my job before veritas to my job at veritas For motivating me into making that making that transition So it felt like the beginning of the year as a typical time of reflection Offering the story to you out in listener land. Maybe this is a good time for you And you know if not whatever we just move on but there were a couple of books and podcasts and videos and things that were like we're helpful For getting me to consider moving from industry I don't know to to a job in ministry, which was the transition from before veritas to veritas I mean you hate money because I know we'll get into what I did but I guess listeners I assume know that Graham and AJ are teachers at Veritas Academy I also used to work there. That's a classical Christian school in Austin That's like the reason we started this podcast is for the three of us. We're all working there at the time So you two you all obviously came to the veritas at one point.
We've talked about that before I'm more curious about you all in general wanting to work in education as a field Do you remember that decision to like go into education working with students as something that you wanted to do? Why why are you all in this field? Because the coffee shop I worked out was going out of business and my friends all moved to Seattle. You're like even lame answers, huh?
These are lame answers. That's the honest answer. They're all the answers I appreciate that my my brother-in-law said hey you should try out for this thing and I'd always sworn I would never be a teacher and I wasn't sure if it was a good idea and I applied and got the job and then came down and Student did it one day and was like well my ears going down the tubes I was going to give it a shot and sometimes I've always been one that I never really hear I don't trust my feelings and so if God like gave me a calling right I'd be like that just probably me wanting to do it And so God just put me where he wanted me and turns out that's exactly where I need to be this fail And I love it and I'm saying do some more thoughts than I would teach but um But you you're so built for it. Holy cow.
That's the thing and you also I taught I taught it before yeah, I taught it in an international school in the Netherlands and it was not really a very It wasn't a great experience wasn't super fun. I didn't love it every day And but I always liked the academic life come from an academic family my dad's a professor a sister's a professor Mom was a kindergarten teacher, so it's a family business in some sense So I guess in that sense like you grow up in a family of in that is involved in education That's the rhythm of life and so when you're on your own well the first time you're on your own you're still a student So you still have that rhythm of life and so that rhythm of life has just never I've just sort of continued it But yeah, similar to AJ like we when Amanda and I when my wife and I moved to Texas for her work I was looking for a job and I I was coming off off a job a teaching job and overseas that I did not enjoy So I really want to get back in the to do another teaching job and then turn out enjoyed it So it was it was you try other things in the meantime and then um while I was working at Veritas listeners probably know that the school has this unique model where a lot of the teachers are part-time because it is a University model school so the kids are not on campus all the time and back then the school was quite a bit smaller And so there was just sort of less classes I was working part time and I was also working part time at a This was the heyday of the startup life This was like when when you were like 26 you all you do though The world is full of tech startups and so I worked at one here in Austin and it was fine. It was good. Yeah, how's doing our stuff?
I like it Does what does that have to do with Tolkien? You don't know what the story is about. Oh, that's true I don't so I guess my experience is different in that I I guess I like in that I sought out the school in the first place I don't have any other like a family member who worked here or anything like that You know mine started from a I'm sure you all will hate this word and maybe listeners will too I the experience it was very much what we millennials like to call it quarter-life crisis is the term you all have heard before I'm finally good This makes me feel better to us trying to figure out what how long your life is though. That's one quarter of my life Yeah, I would love to make it to 100 that'd be great, right?
But yeah, that's a little like crisis at seven But yeah, that usually is this like you kind of follow this one path your entire life And you've kind of made it out and you're working But then it's this question of like what am I working toward so it's not it's not dissimilar from the midlife crisis of like what do I have to show for Being roughly halfway through life, but just moved up earlier because millennials want something special I don't know we want to be special with our struggles. I'm hitting that midlife one now though. Oh man There's a turn 40 this year. It's coming.
Hopefully that's not midlife, right? Isn't hopefully that's your 40% life crisis. Oh, maybe I guess you got ten years in To have a midlife crisis. I've had a good run.
I don't like that at all But during that time for me personally there were a few resources that were like super helpful for me one of them is the story leaf By nickel which is why I'm giving you this background that maybe is uninteresting But that for me there were a few things that like brought me into this orbit of classical education One of them was encountering the Nick Machian ethics Aristotle's book, which I guess one of you two covered recently Yeah, Graham covered recently one of one of if not my very first episode on the podcast was also covering one of the books one of the sections Within that book on friendship, right? Yeah, it was on friendship. It's just that experience of like there's like this deep wisdom here that I never had time for Never been interested in pursuing maybe similar to what Graham was talking about is that like interest in Academic pursuits reading old things cleaning something from it and then passing that on to other people became something that was very Interesting to me something I was very curious to try out So it started with this encounter there and then speaking in terms of like of hey days of a thing as I was going through this There was kind of this like big work and faith conversation happening at the time. That's 2015 2016 is kind of when this is happening for me personally And I think culturally there was a big work in faith thing.
Oh, I think culturally that this became like a conversation Maybe maybe I'm overstating it and this isn't something that maybe it only came up because I was like having this happen for me personally But but through that there was this there's this book by Tim Keller every good endeavor Is that have you all read this book before? I've never read it I've never read them. I mean I'm nothing against just this is also very good if you're just looking for a Tim Keller recommendation But just that idea of like wanting to find a way that the work that you do ties in with something more important than just I show up 9 to 5, you know Show up and then leave wanting to find some more meaning from your work I think it's a part of what that book is about and just for me personally came at a time where those were things I was thinking about he also has a sermon that's kind of the key points of that book called work and rest So if anyone ever if anyone is interested in that work and rest by Timothy Keller you can find that still on YouTube I guess then in the same Through that through that book There's this short story mentioned leaf by nickel and it's the story that like Tim Keller draws deep meaning from there's a funny story of him Just like this is a huge is bring up the story with people in a in one of the published versions of of the short story The person editing at shares the story of like their first time meeting Tim Keller is on an elevator and Tim Keller goes You ever read the short story and he just loved to talk about or he might still I don't know but So this the other connection for the story before I go into what it's about a long time ago We talked about an essay called on fairy stories. Do you remember this?
This is episode like 48. There's no reason anyone should remember anything about it But kind of one of the important points in that essay is the Tolkien essay on fairy stories or the Chester Sheness fair stories They both written one with a title similar to that token Okay, and so in that story just the one part that's kind of relevant for where we'll go is that you know in when he talks about Fairy stories he's talking about these stories with fantastical elements things that don't exist in the real world such as fairies But that like sorry But that the point of a fairy story is to get to something that is true that behind whatever fantastic stories were telling There are deeper truths deeper things that are actually happening and true and that's what the like good fairy story writer is doing It's one of those essays and the vein of I think I quoted the Chesterton one on my recent episode about children's books Where Chesterton says that like this idea of their being books for children and those are the fantasy ones That's a very like new that's a modern notion So you're not a fairy truth or thing that I think that there's a very truth or thing that are real or are you one of those? That wouldn't surprise me if you came out and told me actually just I don't even know if that's real term I was saying it like a real term if you like a dragon truth or anything dragons are real kind of there it is But I mean how do we prove the negative proved me that fairies aren't real great That's a great point that was the whole thing with the black swans right that like people thought there weren't any until one day They found them yep, I would meet a lot of money and tell me a lot of money. It's a good title It's a good book, but that's the token rights That's a very story is well in that same book with that essay on fairy stories He also publishes this and will this short story leaf by nickel So the word leaf I assume you know what a leaf is that thing on a tree when you hear the word nickel other than it's not only Giggle what's like a does that ring a bell of like what I like niggling is like a term what you don't know what that means It's something like something is kind of slightly irritating.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I also think about it as being someone who's like really Into my new to detail is like a niggling detail is like a small one that bothers you repeatedly But that is the name of the main character of the story. It's only 10 pages long So there are probably I'll probably read chunks of it as we go through this just to say what it's about So hopefully we'll get through a little bit of plot and then talk about what is happening in the story I'll try and keep it. I'll try and keep it high level But we'll see how we do it opens there once was a little man called niggle who had a long journey to make he did not want to go Indeed the whole idea was to sit distasteful to him, but he could not get out of it He knew it would have to start some time, but he did not hurry with his preparations It's the opening line of this There's throughout the story.
There's a type of vagueness to it as to like what is actually happening here It'll be refined out what the journey is he goes on the journey as a part of the story But I think the question as to what is actually happening when I say Someone has to go on a long journey and they don't want to go does that start evoking anything? Oh, what what do you think the story is like what do you think is happening there? It's probably allegory for death, maybe Oh, I was gonna say like travel like flying at Thanksgiving I mean, there's probably a ton of journeys we've got on the way on I have to go I think it's kind of inviting you to layer on that extra level of meaning of what's happening here, right? Is that what's going on in my mind when I don't want to travel during like holidays?
Make all that for death I get to see my family. How rough is it with your family? Oh, no, it's better. It's like maybe listen to this.
Don't they? Maybe airplane rides are like death? Yeah, they are. Yeah, it's pretty terrible.
You're in limbo. You don't want to be there. No one will also be there. No relationships.
It's rough You get sick after it's dark. I like it. This man, niggle is a painter He's not a very good one, but he is a persistent painter and he cares deeply about his paintings Is he a per I thought he's an impressionist the name of his niggling, right? Yeah, so it's not because the impressionist would just they're wanting to capture that first moment of looking at something right?
So no very much not that his his his key painting as the story goes on is that he's making this like giant painting that is of It's supposed to be of a tree with this forest in the background I forget if the mountains are in it or just kind of hinted at but it's this beautiful landscape I didn't hit the microphone hit the wires. Sorry. There's this beautiful landscape that he wants to be painting but just But life is busy and he cannot get to the painting as much as he wants to he has guests who come over and want things from him He has a neighbor named mr. Parrish who has a his leg is in the story.
It's a lame leg He's not able to walk very well or walk very quickly and so mr. Parrish often needs things from niggle other people will come by They want to sit for tea. They want to talk and niggle will be very polite to them He will talk with them, but he always is wanting to get back to the work of this painting But he is only ever able to make small amounts of progress and this is kind of the That he gets stuck on the detail of wanting to get these leaves to be exactly perfect in the painting So it's you know, there's a giant tree there all this stuff in the background and all he can do is work on the detail these tiny leaves Instead of getting to work on the on the large painting itself he This is kind of the story of the beginning of it. It's it's setting all this up the story eventually gets to where Parrish comes over Parrish his neighbor comes over and mr.
Parrish's wife has gotten ill She's come down with something and he asks for niggle to go into town to get a doctor I think also to get someone to fix his roof because there's leaking but he needs niggle to go and do this And he doesn't really want to but he agrees to do it. He agrees to he agrees to help his neighbor needs the help He can't do it himself and so niggle gets on his bike goes into town Tries to get a doctor and I think he's not able to get someone to fix the roof But he helps his neighbor is the important part of this he he does this comes back and In the course of coming back finds out that actually mrs. Parrish the wife wasn't actually that sick She just had a cold and niggle ends up getting really really sick from it's it's raining as he's going into town It's like you know bad weather he over exerts himself, but he does this good deed comes back and ends up getting very sick Following on this Some characters come over they basically order niggle to take his painting and use it to patch up Parrish's roof because the painting isn't that important to Like they don't they're not impressed by this painting when they look at it But as this cover is they use the painting to patch the roof that's what this inspector comes by and tells him to do that It's the I don't think it's like clearly stated here But there's this kind of subtext of like the community not really caring about art in general and so you have these materials your neighbor Has a hole in his roof. Why wouldn't you offer that?
Why wouldn't you give that to him? Oh, got it? Not caring about the picture at all so the inspector is telling him to do that But as the inspector tells him that a driver shows up the driver comes to niggles house walks in and says It's time for you to leave it's time for you to begin on this journey and And niggle niggles not happy about this, but he knows that he has to go goes with the driver the reaver comes knocking I didn't say that the story doesn't say that. I don't know what you're talking about He goes along with the driver takes this carriage.
I think there's a train that he goes on he takes this long long journey He's not able to take anything with him. He has to leave all his stuff behind He should have prepared before the driver showed up is what keeps getting repeated So he starts going on this long trail And then as he gets to his destination he gets sick He starts recovering but the thing that he's doing as he gets to this As he starts on this long journey is he's put to work immediately The place he goes to is more like a prison than a hospital He had to work hard at stated hours at digging at carpentry at painting bare boards all on plain color He was never allowed outside and the windows all looked inwards They kept him in the dark for hours that a stretch to do some thinking they said he lost kind of time He did not even begin to feel better because remember he's sick That's what kicks off this journey and then he doesn't really feel better not that he could be judged by whether he felt any Pleasure in doing anything. He did not not even getting into bed. He just he felt bad all the time Poor guy.
Yeah, so what kind of place did he go to like a work camp basically, right? It's supposed to be called a it's called a hospital at one point. He falls sick. He's taken to this hospital But what do they actually do they put him to work?
I mean that sounds like a racket. What do you mean? There's like stealing people away basically? I mean get some people a little bit of cold put him to work.
That's a good way to make some money. Yeah I mean that's not too far off what's happening here. So he's working and he's Not happy about that probably for obvious reasons he continues on sick and he starts to overhear this I Don't know if I'm conveying this appropriately. It's just like a weird story and that again What is actually happening is kind of this the question we get to at the end He's working hard every day.
He kind of starts to get used to being in this place and kind of accepts that this is what Where he is supposed to be he he has some kind of gripes about his past about his neighbor about people who were mean to him He starts to forget about that stuff and kind of come to peace with just the way things were before he overhears this conversation between two voices And the two voices are trying to talk through where where Nagel is supposed to go like what's next for him after this? He's been in this work camp for a while. Where should he go next and they're weighing the deeds that he did in life? What what things are in his favor?
What were the good things that he did these noble things that he did? What were the kind of selfish Things that he did focus me on things that were the bad things that he did they go back and forth and the one piece of evidence that Ends up being really important to him is that he was willing to help Mr Parrish by going into town during the rain risk his health to help Parrish's wife even though Parrish's wife ended up not being very sick at all It's like a very good thing that he did with no expectation of return from Mr Parrish and this sets up then that Nagel gets to leave this work camp and he gets to go to his this next place which he at the time does not know where it is he is given some kind of rations to go on this next leg of the trip leaves the work camp I think he takes a train somehow he gets to this next spot and Gets to this next spot and he sees a gate And he sees the bike that he used to have back at his old home on the other side of that gate on hooks the gate Picks his bike rides on him as he's riding into this Idyllic landscape has no idea where he is but something about it feels very familiar He's looking he's riding down this path with his bike and all of a sudden he gets to the spot Where he sees the tree that he had been painting during you know back back at home that this this tree that he himself had never Painted but had in his mind. He's now looking at the most majestic incredible tree that he's ever seen he looks in the background He sees the the forest that he had always wanted to paint in that in that painting and there it is It's laid out. It's like he's actually now seeing the thing that he'd only imagined ever before he looks in the background again Never actually painted but there's beautiful mountains in the background that He's just like overwhelmed by this is the landscape He had wanted to draw all of his life.
He wanted to paint all of his life And he's now getting to see it himself So he's looking around trying to figure out what is going on suddenly mr. Parrish shows up He's followed a similar path to to niggle He's now made it to this tree and they're just kind of looking around trying to understand why are we here? What's going on they negotiate and figure out that they're going to build a house They need somewhere to sleep while they're there and they work together They build a house a little cottage by this tree and the story eventually gets to where parrish is going to stay in this cottage By the tree and wait for his wife to show up because she's not there He doesn't know where she is and niggle is going to go He's going to leave to go off into the mountains and continue exploring. He's not done exploring.
He's not done seeing all these beautiful sites That is that's the the main of the story. There's this little epilogue part where back at niggles old home These people are kind of talking about what a loser niggle was and they're kind of right right link through his things His house is passed to ownership to a new person now owns the house and they're Getting rid of this painting except for this one little scrap of it this one scrap It's one little torn off piece of one of the leaves looks particularly beautiful One whether the people looking at it keeps it hangs it in this local art museum But it's very rarely looked at and I think eventually burns down essentially this leave is eventually lost and then he's forgotten that's the end of his being known in the world that's the end of his painting in his art and while this is going on niggle himself has gone off and is exploring the landscape the outdoor location he'd always wanted to see to create in in his art and that is the story Give me some thoughts on this can you? Go just a second so after he got out of the work camp he went to a place of this side where he was gonna Go next and it was the he got to go to his the landscape essentially where he that he had been painting all his life Does it tell us tell us the other option? No, but the other place is if he had been judged as doing mostly bad things he would have gone to some other place I feel like there's something to that I can't quite put my finger on what it is always what exactly they're talking about I think it's You know a takedown of the prison system, huh?
Like you know 1800s England. I mean that's probably true Maybe not exactly what's going for so don't don't don't work on your own vanity projects, but like help your neighbor So you're coming to kind of these moral lessons Do you want to start first with like so there's a little story of this guy kind of going to these different places? You were making a joke at the about the obviousness of what is being referenced. Yeah, what is it?
It's a story about you know, he's dying He's going to some sort of place where upon where his deeds are being judged and maybe this is Purgatory type place and then they're looking over his life And and then he gets he gets to go to the place where of his heart's desire the thing that he's always wanted his whole life Yeah, he actually goes and he gets to receive and that is the landscape the thing that he Think he couldn't just quite get in his in his earthly existence. He gets in his sort of post-life existence It doesn't stay with it. There's sort of an overarching thing where he he doesn't actually want what he thinks he wants That's can you say more what do you mean? So in life?
He kept on working on this painting which was going to be beautiful? But it turns out wasn't very good and he wasn't very good and the thing that was actually worthwhile was helping his neighbor Which he didn't like very much and then when he actually gets the thing that he wanted he sees the real tree That's great, but he doesn't stay he decides to go and see more of the good. That's right I don't and this is probably in my retelling of it I think there is like an actual encounter with like is a beautiful tree that he has been wanting to paint and wanting to bring into the world That even like one leaf of it is enough to like capture a person's attention back home Like there was a there he was going after a good thing by being by wanting to bring this art into the world He himself was just over focused on the details like all he cared about was I gotta get the leaf perfect ignoring that like there's more to the painting than just that But yeah, I got you know that is true that the only reason he gets there in the first place is he helped his neighbor I guess is that the part you're kind of catching on to yeah, just that he always seems to be focused on the wrong thing I think that is exactly right. Okay, but then and yet and yet and yet he does the right thing You know, he's focused on the wrong thing.
He does the right thing by helping his neighbor I going into the right I think you were then Graham about to go into a moral aspect of this well Then I guess it's just raising the question. It's like you know is it making a Criticism about our vanity projects or the things that we think are important versus the things that are actually important The helping of one's neighbors or the Christian the life of Christian charity as opposed to being the great artist or working on the project that you think is Of tremendous importance when the the mundane or the not the mundane, but the um, yeah Those those aspects of Christian charity are what is important sure his his art is brought up in that conversation I didn't say this and trying to summarize but his art is brought up in the conversation between the two voices trying to figure out Where he goes, but it's not it doesn't it doesn't sway either person to claim that he should go to one place or another Mm-hmm, so does come up he did art. I think it's some of his leaves are quite striking It's some very funny like kind of an insult because again, it's just the all-you-drew were leaves You know like they are quite striking which is true that the person at the end wants to keep one until the museum eventually burns down Is there anything Any other kind of takeaways in hearing the story, you know, I'm trying to draw this into this connection to Work right like one's work going towards something that matters does that seem like kind of an out-of-left field reading of the story? Again just having heard the second hand No, I mean, not out of left.
I mean, there's what we all have a hundred hundred and sixty eight hours a week, right? So it's the idea of what is the worthwhile endeavor in life? I feel like it's one of the things where I really want to I kind of want to I never read it I want to read it in detail just to see if there are the way that people talk about sounds like that conversation between the two people in purgatory Or in the work camp is a pretty critical piece of the story to really understand to interpret this to go down this road of interpretation That seems to be the conversation that needs some further that needs to be a close reading of and then also maybe the close reading of His motivations for continuing to look for the into the mountains at the end is also a pretty important part Yeah, this is the when people talk about again that this story appears in the same book of essays and short stories as on fairy stories kind of the I think the point people will point to is that so nickel in wanting to Draw this tree is is drawing a true real thing that exists. It just doesn't exist in his world at the time that he's drawing it It actually exists in this kind of Heaven place that is occurring at the end so there's like a real tree that he is wanting to draw in the first place There's like an actual inspiration.
There's an actual thing that he wants to express that Is beautiful and moving and that is worthwhile for him to spend his time working on It's the art right there But it's not the only thing that exists in this place and so whereas he had gotten to see you know When the Greeks talk about like the music being the source of inspiration like they will inspire an artist to write one kind of work Well, there are other kinds of work right that that that could have been inspiring to that person as well And he begins to lose it lose that The goodness of that a little bit by becoming so myopic on the leaf becoming so yeah That he didn't get to bring into existence the full good thing that he wanted to do in the first place But the work that he did is important in that it points to something that actually persists beyond his small little piece of work There's some like greater cause that he's pointing to and that is the tree that then you know Parrish gets to see it eventually to other people when they kind of make it to this place will also get to pass by the tree and experience the same thing With them. I think the like the metaphorical reading of it tends to be wanting to The artist wants to be able to have their work point to some other meaning But you know depends on the artist depending on what they're making but many people will read the story as Tolkien in his anxieties around He only has so much time in this world. He has lots of things that he wants to convey through his through his writing And is he is he that main character? Is he niggle focusing on the tiny details to the detriment of this greater message?
Will his work be forgotten as a result of that kind of pettiness, which is literally in the character's name So I think like that's a piece of it But then that the Wanting one's work to be tied to some greater sense of meaning I think is what is happening is is my takeaway in this game what's Keller's usage of that book in his book on work? Yeah, almost that exactly of that what You know when you all are working with students and teaching them You're only one tiny piece of the like development of a student into an adult, right? But there is a You are contributing to an important thing even if your work is not the entirety of that important thing and that's what ends up mattering Right that you are doing something that that will bring someone to a better place But it doesn't matter than if you are their only teacher like you don't have to only tutor to be able to have that accomplishment Yeah, and that in a sense like all any of us ever get our leaves to work on all any of us ever get our time Tiny pieces to contribute to whatever cause that we care about whatever thing that we care about But that's enough because those leaves are part of a tree and that the thing that we hope for and want If it's a good cause that we're working toward will occur will happen So is it a good thing that he spends so much time working being working fistidiously on leaves or not? So his his fistidiousness I don't think I don't think is a good thing the thing he is working on is a good thing and that's the kind of Yeah, it's trying to capture a good and that's in like what else can you do right like?
His leaves would not have been beautiful if not for his over focus on the level to deal with it But what is more important is that one's work is directed toward something that will last that I think is the thing that people want that I think is that is Keller's main interpretation And that is the impact for me is that what we what one should be working toward is something you think will last beyond just you putting your time And the real thing that lasted was presumably Parrish because his leaves aren't gonna last they go in a museum for like a little bit and burn down You say the painting itself the yeah, the thing that last is the actual tree Yeah, yeah that he was trying to show to the world Yeah, but it actually already existed And this is one of those like it will exist at the end of time or it would exist when all things are made right in the end And that's more the like you're either working for something that will persist in that kind of eternal sense or you're working for something that will be destroyed In the eternal sense and that's like the best you can hope for just to work toward something that will persist So how do this rock your socks when you were a fresh-faced young financier? Oh, just like at the time that I didn't like that's not what I didn't think my work was going to last Anyway, in the way that I think that like ministry work is like very easy to see where those kind of impacts will happen right that you are helping People in an important time in their life as they're growing and developing like I guess that was more the thing that struck me during that time Where I you know, I don't really like you all should feel free to talk about this too But I think then I don't think that this only happens in ministry context Or be the only thing that I would say and that I think there's lots of work that is working toward justice that is working toward the making of Some wrong right and that ministry is one piece of that But it's not the only piece of that that's like my main development here But I think that desire to work on something that will last beyond you. Mm-hmm I think it's a powerful one. Mm-hmm.
Like a podcast. Yeah, I was hoping that you would say your education pursued with some piece of that too But maybe not oh, I mean Yes, maybe maybe now that you sort of we talk about the book We can talk about the term those terms but like starting off with that feels a little self-grandizing to be like I really feel like that What I'm doing with these children will last fraternity, but you do think that I do but it's you know, it's not my lead in But yeah, anyway, that's it's yeah the Noble work the idea of a work that is that has meaning and purpose and a nobility to it It doesn't have to be like the ministry of Christian education It could be having a well-functioning judicial system You could be a lawyer like you can say like listen me doing this job to the best of my abilities to bring to actually like administering the law of the land and justice is a worthwhile pursuit and I would agree with you whereas being like a Twitch video game streamer you have a lot harder time connecting that thread connecting that occupation to some kind of like sense of nobility other than like I'm using People like my own fame or something like that. Yeah, exactly so, but I'm I'm curious. I've never like I said before never I'm sort of curious just to really go through it and and see like is Tolkien Is there a sense that Tolkien has this idea that they're like that there are things that are not worth pursuing?
I guess maybe like I said that that the conversation of the of the people yeah Can you say more about that conversation that the two guys have where they're assessing the life of of niggle? Well, I was just gonna say I It's hard for me to be convinced that the the thing that he is pursuing is noble the tree Like I think he has an idea of what is beautiful there But the noble thing he ends up doing is actually helping yeah And when he gets to what is sensibly heaven He finds out that that thing exists in reality all along and he was going to get there all along and that his his neighbor who was Like he was wanting to show his picture to also thought right and there beyond that tree There's much more good to see and so his effort is even though he was pursuing a truth. We're all gonna get there Yeah, eventually. So what's the point?
I'm trying to draw this perfect. This is yeah, that was a set there I'm wondering if it's an alternate reading it's not saying that But yeah, the work may have like been a great idea But even for Tolkien like what's the point of putting his books into the world eventually they're gonna get to heaven and turns out fairies are there And we actually get to interact with the magical and he did to all this time working on this labor that when all of us eventually arrive We'll be pointless and what he could have been doing was helping his neighbor. Yes I wonder if that's the thing that's haunting him I think well Yeah, is that the message of the book? It's like I have the things that you think are really important like the work that you do the noble work that you're doing Yes, doesn't matter.
It's the because we're gonna see real nobility eventually Yeah, it's the relationship because he like the this opening part is so much about Nickel being distracted by all these things I think it's I think it's totally fair to say that like The person he thinks he's distracted by is actually his like eternal co-labor if you think it's heaven reading yeah, yeah, yeah And there's this you know the again read the story. It's only 10 pages. It's good There's this kind of inversion that happens where like parishes like super not interested in niggles painting in the beginning Like he goes over to niggles house almost every day really doesn't look at the painting doesn't really care about it I think insults it maybe in the very beginning I'm trying to remember But by the end is like enraptured by the beauty of this thing that he will now live next to again for all eternity If taking the heaven reading of it, so I think I think your reading of the like reduction of anxiety is a good one And that some important part of life is just the thing you think our distractions are actually like the most character shaping thing in your life I think that totally fair reading It doesn't take away that the thing that niggle was bringing into the world like is a Like I'm overstating it so much but to say that you're like bringing some like heavenly piece of beauty into earth or to earth That's like an incredibly important thing and even to fail at that is to still enrapture people in some way like that His work still has impact even though he's forgotten in the end I do think the reduction of anxiety is the point of the ending where it's like niggles work is totally forgotten after he dies He still gets to explore his art. He still gets to live in the thing.
He'd always been obsessed with but and then So this is a new a new corner to it. So you did the the neighbor at all ever become interested in the painting He comments on it briefly in the beginning and then he just ends up in that same place What what interpretation I was gonna say that if he slowly like began to really look at the painting I think that the painting was interesting and amazing and then ends up being in the reality of it in the afterlife then then I would have the interpretation that there is sort of this sense of The work that niggle is doing of trying to bring heaven to earth through his work is a work that Influenced and helped draw his neighbor closer to heaven Yeah, but if that's but if you never really cared about the tree that much at all then in life They may be not When parish looked at niggles garden which was often he's obviously weeds when he looked at niggles picture Which was seldom he saw only green and gray patches and black lines which seemed to him nonsensical He did not mind mentioning the weeds he refrained from giving his opinion on pictures Which he thought was very kind that he didn't want to insult the picture that I wonder if this is all just a Story about his relationship with Lewis. Oh, he's working so hard Lewis is like What's really into it and then he sent it to Lewis and eventually the stories that Lewis is gonna build a cottage next to what he's Been painting all along. Yeah, that's right.
You're living middle earth buddy That's what heaven will be like was Lewis grumpy about tokens No, I don't think so I think actually it was more that Tolkien was grumpy about Lewis's stuff He used to be like your narnia isn't consistent magically anything. It's for it's a quell of the rules like Don't worry about it, man. Who cares about it. Speak the Lord is an existence I've heard that I can't I don't know where I heard that but that he also used to bring up these world-building problems with Lewis and Lewis is like look Man, no one cares except you and he's like ah Grandma, thanks to your reading about Paris being kind of hooked in by this the ending has the sense where only You know lots of people will end up in this kind of heaven whatever place at the end But not all of them pass through this location specifically Oh, some of them do and so some of them like this is gonna be their entry point where and they can either stay here or they continue on in their journey But does Nagel ever say to Paris like hey, man, you see that tree that was what I was trying to make it's not gonna day in Paris It's like all the black vines were there They they do have a little bit of fighting when they first meet each other again at this location at the end But but it says that over time they they learn to be okay with each other So again, we talked about this in the purgatory episode where there are these two rivers at the end I forget the names left and Something else anyway when you drink from them you forget your life on earth Yeah, like or you forget the sinful parts of your past on earth And that's essentially what's happening here is that they just don't care about those fights from before But parishes happy to live next to this tree that Nagel had always seen in his mind and wanted to paint and that and that parrot Not cared about one one bit better was there any sense that his imagining it was what created the tree or did was the tree something that Existed like a beauty that he was had a sense of and was trying to capture or was it him trying to capture the creative beauty of the tree Well, I think you said it three times But what everyone is the it was already in existence and that niggle is the one Channeling it or like again somehow some had some sort of vision over there Yes, so it didn't result from his efforts.
This is like a I can't speak very I can't speak intelligently on anything on anything But on this one particularly there's this idea in Tolkien of sub creation that you all might know more about than I do It's actually not far off from your AJ thing on your solution to the problem of evil the way it works is that Good things are created by God. They're good things And then we are either in service of good things and wanting to share them and spread them or we are twisting those good things The example people point to I'm gonna get this wrong. Are you all Lord of the Rings nerds? We all be the creation of elves and orcs Okay, yeah, I can't do this but like it's like art or twisted elves that are tortured Yeah, but whichever divine being like creates life in the first place makes elf and then only after that can someone else twist it and then make Ork so like the initial creation of like a living being can't happen But only the twisting of being after it's created can cause that is that kind of being clear Yeah, so then what what Niggles doing is he is inspired by something that is actually real wanting to bring that to earth And I think that is what I think that's what Tolkien is conveying is that like the goal of the artist is to pass along these true things that are Kind of outside of ourselves.
We're we only channel inspiration, right? But I think age is probably tempering of this is important that that doesn't then give you a carte blanche to be a jerk to the people around you Like you're still on the hook for how you treat those people. Yeah, yeah Like I think people to think about this of like what is your work going toward and I think for most people you can find that kind of good Thing that is impacted by it We should probably have that in mind of like what is the thing that you're spending your everyday going toward? Mm-hmm, that was what struck me a long time ago and that is what I pass along to you all as well in addition to all those other Books and resources from before so leave my nigga or talkin.
It's a good one. Check it out. That's it Well, we've just triggered a midlife crisis for you. Can you know?
I'm wondering how Did you read this for this episode? Yeah, of course. Has it made you feel any specific about your work? Oh proud of it.
That was my point of saying I'm at a different place now of like I think five years six years ago I could have only understood this in the context of like ministry work does this and I think now like yeah I think there are lots of fields where you can still do this and that it doesn't have to be nonprofit work Or it doesn't have to be for a church or school or any of those things Again, nickel is an artist. He's not a pastor even though he lives next to parish, but yeah, so I still think I'm doing this I still think that the thing that I am working toward is you know, I think that will persist a thing that will last And that just doesn't have to happen in a school setting. I guess with the point I was trying to get out Cool who opened this episode. I did Well, this has been classical stuff You should know and you can email us if you'd like at the guys at classical stuff that again We read all of those we can't reply to all of them because we get quite a few But you know every once in a while we can sit down and reply to a handful So if you've sent it and felt like you threw it into the void trust me It hits our eyes We just don't have time to reply to all of them and you can also patronize us at patreon.com slash classical stuff You can tweet us at clsscal stuff on the twits and is that it?
That's all that's all the things I'm not exactly that's all the things so for classical stuff. This is AJ Thomas and Graham signing off. Bye. Ciao