Hi, welcome to classical stuff. You should know a podcast about classic education old books philosophy literature maybe music definitely some doors and We love the doors. That's great those are great episodes and sometimes we have books that were published in the mowton like the last couple of years We're not consistent Well Thomas on his last episode did say that he gave a ledger and then he said or whatever we feel like talking about it I feel like that is a great clause for us to have in our intro is because it's true Yeah, probably and Thomas is we were looking up the definition of the word shift before this podcast because apparently we are needing to confess Our sins Thomas is what we're doing. We're doing a fest shift a fest shift.
What do we say fest? What does that mean shift is absolution or confession so and so a fest is like a party a party confession party Oh man Your turn AJ. Oh Although I think after somebody gave their like weird confession be like oh I feel like I've been in some Bible studies where it was like confession party. Yeah, we're gonna do we're gonna talk about our sins I go here we go.
Yeah, I'm a college pastor like that. You can look at your soul and know your sin. Oh, yeah I never like me. I was a college pastor.
Yeah, a cult leader Yeah, you think he's listening to the podcast when you get my shout out you want to know no, no No, I don't know you join his army. I was like, I don't like in the sound of this at all All right, so we are talking about a fest shift which I assume means nothing to most people We are really means nothing to me and AJ because we were totally wrong when we told us what it means apparently means celebration writing and literally Fest shift means feast script. It's like a script also means confession. Oh because the confession is like a back and forth script I don't know so yes, we are talking about a book called Libre amacorum essays and reflections in honor of Andrew Kern this I guess came out at the most recent Cersei conference because I guess we'll get into the story in just a little bit but before we go into this so it's A collection of essays like I said in honor of Andrew Kern Andrew Kern is okay.
Yes. Well, I mean, I just he's not he hasn't retired or died No, okay, so the yeah, so this is a book of essays that was put together by dr Matbianca who also works for the Cersei Institute. It was supposed to be for the 20th It's it's whenever this was supposed to be given covid happened. So I think that's 20 It was supposed to be in 2019.
I'm just looking at the dates right now that this was what we presented But it ended up being delayed a few years and this notification that it came out was July 2022 So I'm guessing that's when the book actually was presented to a mr. Andrew Kern So who before we get into like this book and any of that who is Andrew Kern or the Cersei Institute? Oh man the Colonel Andrew Kern is We call him the founder of the Cersei so he is a public academic is not a yeah, he's a public academic He's not something they like called us we look up somebody and it's like they are public academics I think it's a title we wanted for ourselves. Is that it?
Yeah, I remember previous up to great time Yeah, but yes, he's an S. A. S. He's an academic he is influential in classical education great public speaker Great public speaker.
He said a number of podcasts. I'm on just yet books I'm unsure if you like because we're able to coherently put all the stocks together into a book for you You cited his book. I know if you were than a hundred times on this podcast. What's wrong?
What do you tell me what's the name of his book? I can't remember. I don't think I've read his book classical education the movement sweeping America I never read it. No, no you've referenced it though.
Sure. It's like this title is you know you've called classical education Oh, not just me being funny. Oh, okay. I was not oh, I had no idea.
He was I honestly did not know he wrote that But I've only known him by having by being in his sessions as a speaker at the Society for Classical Learning And when I forget with him once I don't know he's like he's he's always just got like he's the stage on the mountain What do you mean by that? He's the one out there doing all the thinking so we don't have to okay? So he's Cersei is an institution that not only puts out curriculum for like writing yes, but they are They've been sort of forefront in talking about classical Christian education thinking through what are schools. What do we want?
So current is great He's all there people are frustrated with him because so say things like the only book you need to teach anybody anything is Homer And you're like oh that sounds so cool. Tell me how and then it's and then it's it's any then he doesn't Yeah, he does but it's the title of his sessions are never really the way the session is If you're expecting practical application good luck Okay, y'all are getting all the important stuff here So also important you made reference to this he he founded the Cersei Institute what does for like I don't know a hundred million dollars What does Cersei stand for she's the goddess on the mountain island? What is Cersei stands for? No no classical institute your own your repeated collection of education.
It's a great with a great guess It's how did you do it? Wow Graham what a center? Institute Regarding the classical education. It's actually cowardly initiative I'm like this better.
Okay, so circumventing I 35 repeated I hate it. So that's her seat. It stands for two different things I find charming so I believe it was initially the center for independent research on classical education You're pretty close on that one and then secondary I believe this one comes later consulting and integrated resources for classical educators So they so they just flipping it up on the same thing that you can do that you can have an acronym just flip Well, I mean when you run something you do whatever you want to like you know that classical stuff You should know is an acronym C stands for classical Learning if you make this work a stands for ask me anything. Okay good It's one of everything we do.
He's not I say ugly soggy ankles. We just flip up. Yeah, that's what means now But yes, it's a institute so it's a different research on classical education they put on conferences I think they started in early 2000s they also have a blog where they put out great articles It's where Josh gives us but is published through his seat a room is through the search Institute They have a publishing arm. I guess also they also put out books So you can find those all on the search the Institute website curriculum is an important part of what they do They also do consulting for schools to help them to be a classical school So there are many things and then I guess already made reference Have you all been to a sir see Institute conference or just do SEL society for classical learning conferences where you've either seen Intercurrent or they do things where they'll do like retreats where teachers will go for either a weekend or even a longer time And they'll read through a book together as educators and do like a retreat on The Iliad or any other something the other one that's on for Did you say that was for or did you say they do?
Yes, so yes, so I have a longer term one also There's like a short term I think where maybe a couple weeks and a longer term and they've also got some kind of not a Accreditation, but they've got teacher training that they do you can do a program that yeah So they do a lot of stuff the resources are great. So if you're like in the classical land I assume you've heard of this group, but you should check it out. They're great So land yeah, they have land they have land in the land somewhere right there You stand in line to read a book. Yeah classical land.
That's great. You would not go to classical land So yes, we can get confession party so Andrew Kern found this this group this thirsty thing 20 years ago I believe initially as thirsty ministries and then you know as we've already found with the changing acronym Maybe some kind of things have been added on again when first started They didn't actually put on a conference that was something that came on later I believe the thirsty ministries initially was for Andrew to write his book so classical education movement in America Which came out in 2001 I want to say I think so what's that quite some time ago as well about 20 years ago as well Man times flying boys. It's 2001 feel that long ago. Yeah, no, it doesn't feel that long ago But I was a senior in high school.
We had great 13, which was a bar. Yeah, let's go in 03 from high school high school But that's 20 years ago Like back in the oh, you know those 20 years ago, man. I feel so ancient. We still know to call it the odds The odds you know what oh the zips no ice.
It's the odds. Why not no the nulls no years all two So speaking of 0204 I don't know like seven when I graduated from high school you were seven years old No, three, you know three I wasn't because I graduated high school in 2007 so I was four years younger than me. Yeah, yeah So I'm I you were yes, you are about a babe in this world babe in this world I was 14 when you were older than that grisly this guy just buying a house first time Okay, so Rich okay, so whatever so let's so Andrew Curtis is a great guy He so in honor of coming up on 20 years of having been involved in this work That's what this book of essays was put together in his honor So I already this name was doped it was joked about before but Festrift is one name for it But the name of this book the bear amacorum is another name for this like genre of a book of essays in honor of someone I don't know you want to talk about your your father's received one of these as well my dad retired He got a fest drift my dad was a professor at the University of Toronto Wycliffe College New Testament professor and yeah, and so as a retirement a bunch of I can't remember if it was his colleagues at the universe at the Wycliffe that did it or if it was other New Testament scholars around the world I think it was the latter other New Testament scholars who were in the same field who put essays together in his honor Which is kind of nice. No, I apologize for putting you on the spot.
Sorry. Did you read this book of essays? I don't even think I got a copy of it again. My dad retired around COVID times and so everything was kind of crazy so I have not I don't think I received a copy He finished his last or he called his loud notes in his last But he finished his big one of his last big scholarly works and I thought that as a gift drink of it that I have not read The thing I'm trying to figure out again I'm not this is not a genre with which I'm particularly familiar but in reading through this book There are some of these essays that are essays on classical education So it's just and having been to society for classical learning conferences before it's you know lessons that they've talked before It's something about classical education that they made an essay out of but included in this book, but it's not really about Andrew Kern it's not really like it's just a material on classical education that they're providing for this book Well, some of them are very much about how I call me Andrew.
That feels wrong. Mr. Curtain Andy Andy the Colonel that some of them are very much about how Andrew Kern impacted someone or how quote really kind of set a direction for their life We'll read through a few here But I think most of the ones that are that were compelling to me here are ones about Andrew himself And so I'll give you a couple of those and I'd like to just hear your responses in light of you all having Interacted with him before been to hear him talk before so I guess I'll go into that So the this book of essays is split into a group of different sections I'm sure I could tell you what they are on language on pedagogy on virtue on cosmology and on friendship We're actually starting in the on friendship section toward the end. So Maybe this will end up being a grand question for what he thinks about this As always I'll just be reading sections and we'll go into comments after that I was walking down the sidewalk This is that sorry Tim McIntosh wrote this essay Hamlet in the collapse of the cosmos.
I do you all know Tim McIntosh? I think he I think he's a playwright. He sort of apple. Yeah, he's a big big and apple He's the CEO now is me in the attempt to Mac and Tasha Playwright's name.
That's a good name. He Also is one of the co-hosts on close reads and I don't know if he's on the plays the thing, but they have better reviews in us Close reads. They're a great podcast. They're a great podcast.
They're wrong. They've been around longer than us first off They have a great their series on J.B. Crow is really really good. It's a very very good Around the worst or views get it's not true.
We had a great spat of five star reviews when we weren't actually publishing Is that when we asked for happy ones for Graham? No, we got one from that. It was a very good one So more of those please no close reads is so good. They started their own like close reads network Basically, so they have the daily poem and I think the plays the thing is one of their I don't know why I know so much about this But you listen I haven't listened to it close reads in a while Hamlet and the collapse of the cosmos is the name of this essay I was walking down the sidewalk one afternoon when Andrew called I pause beneath a large oak tree and thought this should only take a minute Three hours later was still beneath the oak tree The Sun was dropping on the horizon and Andrews passion was rising He was telling a grand story about the collapse of an ordered picture of the cosmos in Andrew's story Pythagoras deeply underrated had to queethed and organized cosmos to the medieval's who had synthesized his view with a deep Understanding of the logos this harmonious universe thrived until Galileo the first modern man shattered it into a thousand tiny pieces Now we all feel like Hamlet worried and anxious the cosmos nothing but a foul in pestilent congregation of vapors The call was classic Andrew equal parts dreamy mournful brilliant and slightly bonkers really Hamlet is about the collapse of the cosmos as we talked I paced I was in Oregon andrew was in North Carolina I guess you read him the same way as I think he's dead on okay.
Oh, yeah, I mean sure It's probably I probably even heard Andrew make reference to this and SCL off He probably said it just said it off the top of his head and that was that planted to see in my mind because I've been teaching Hamlet for ten years It's like he is correct that is a thing is the modern man no that Hamlet has this the anxiety of Hamlet is because the universe No longer is ordered or makes sense. You've got this like shift. Yeah, I think he's I think he's on to it Not that he has to figure out if his uncle's a murderer. There's that there's by that I mean issue in his anxiety, but hey I did you disagree with Graham's reading of Hamlet?
No, yes, no, you're you're exactly you're you are correct But when Hamlet is thinking about whether or not I should do this he also has like these He doesn't even know if the universe sees in is one that makes sense where honor honoring your father is worth doing Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, he doesn't have any ground for action at all and then by the end He is so and unable to act he says acting doesn't matter being ready as yeah, right? Which is pretty good anyway, so did you think Graham is reaching in this reading of Hamlet? Do you agree with this like cosmology argument? I know it has lost a cosmos and that's not central but it means there.
What what cosmos has he lost? What is caused this? When he's talking about the quintet a man is quintessence of dust when he's um I'm trying to think that still seems to jive with a Christian framework. Oh, right.
Um, let's see The ordered universe stuff you were talking about before but there's no meaning to yeah, well I don't want to oh, we don't have to keep knowing that the part that I found the part I'm looking for a day is if you often have made reference that Graham is perhaps overeating into stories that there are things that he'll pull out that You don't think are present in the story the Status yeah, I'm always trying to be honest with him Let's world is I would just need maybe a little more evidence But he certainly acts as though his world is collapsing and he doesn't have good ground for action He there it does seem to be a framework He's not willing to kill his uncle in the church because that'll send him straight to heaven He doesn't command as a quintessence of dust. He does break up with his girlfriend The ghost tells him about purgatory, which is not what the classical version of purgatory sounds like so he's telling them this like it's a little bit different Yeah, but it's still there right there I get to wander around at night Then I have to go back and I'm getting tortured before I go to heaven and Hamlet doesn't like question that as suspicious Yeah, so there's some changes there But Hamlet certainly does act as though his world is falling down around him Yeah, the only thing I'm trying to draw out is that in the course of this conversation essentially Andrew and Tim are on Not if not opposite sides to as many questions as to what Andrew is seeing in the story that leads to that interpretation It reminded me of the dynamic you two have had in talking about What you say on the crazy guy I don't think Andrew is crazy Oh The end of this Is that goes for years Andrew and I've argued across this divide the dispute has sometimes He did a grand frustrated with Andrew and I'm sure he's going frustrated with me But the heat between us had never come to a boil. I think it never will Andrew is too magnanimous for that The drive with the your interactions are I'm saying we never boiled I don't mean that I mean I'm always watching him. Yeah, yeah, yeah But I think one of again Andrew current strengths is if anyone I'll just keep talking about the giggling themselves that if you were to like listen to the ask Andrew podcast or listen to I think Perpetual Feast is the one on Homer on a blade in the Odyssey that His mind is always like looking for connections between all of these works that he has consumed and thought deeply about over Again, it's 20 plus years of working in classical education land space whatever we're calling it So I think again for having seen him talk I'm wondering if that's what you all have seen as well if this you're just seeing this broad knowledge of of history of literature being brought together That somehow synthesized even if it's difficult to follow it I mean that's kind of the joke you're making he's been thinking up on the mountain So we don't have to and we don't have to that thought is that yeah, yeah This face is all shiny.
It's coming down with stone tablets too as far as let's go I had to give up my golden cap every time. It's unfortunate. I call a lot of money. I say all those golden caps Okay, so I'll give you another one.
This is from David Hicks David Hicks around SA. Yeah, that's so nice. Yeah, David Hicks wrote the book norms and ability We've done we talked about David Hicks. Do we do an episode on his essay can classical education actually happen?
Or do we scratch that episode no that episode came out okay? We you I've told the story before you were going to leave an episode on that and then one of us fell asleep And so we didn't do that one instead I eventually let that episode in somehow everyone stayed awake because clearly years was much more and yeah That's obviously the takeaway from that I fall asleep. I didn't say that okay, so actually fall asleep. Yeah This is so funny because we talked about it before we talked about it so many times It's so you just eat I mean, I think you hadn't slept the night before today you showed up in pajamas Do you remember that and you just like I'm so sorry?
It was very funny. I worry about you sometimes Okay, so this is on this is from the on virtue section tenacious Andrew. I'll just read a few sections on this I'll jump around the eyes actually a little bit first met Andrew Kern on the vanishing edge what remains of the American wilderness He and his family were traveling in the wrong direction west to east and how he found me I either failed to ask or have since forgotten while working on his college thesis something having to do with classical education He discovered in his college's library a book I once wrote on the subject it was a rare college I'm sure that would have this book in its library and an even rarer and even rarer that someone would stumble upon it and Andrew resolved to track down the author and have words with him at least that's how I remember the story is family vacation Yeah, I don't like exactly spot. Oh, yeah, yeah, you guys been drinking my kids Mountains But they were happy to go I thought they were good sports now this alone should tell us all we need to know about Andrew Tenacity is his middle name without it his intellectual curiosity his belief in the merits of classical education his loyalty to friends and love a family His hunger for God and desire for true worship none of these traits as lovely and worthy as they may be Would have made of a mere trait a whole life The rest goes on to talk about this tenacity and it is I'll read this Wrap up paragraph because that this is more the thing I wanted to come back to you kind of make reference to the point we'll talk about in a second So what has this detour into abstraction to do with Andrew Kern good question call it an attempt to conclude the tribute to him by giving an example Of how it appears to me his mind works as he takes an idea walks around it like the naturalist on your walking through the woods contemplating How each thing is attached to everything else and all are held together and in balance by the logos without which nothing by itself lives Or can be said to be true beautiful or good so say a wandering perhaps rambling Rambling makes it sound negative, but I kind of wandering around an idea to get to the heart of something I think you all may reference that this is how you all have seen his talks go before you want to say more about that It's it's not a condemnation First thing to say is that Andrew Kern is so full of ideas that whatever he intended to say usually kind of goes by the wayside And then he talks about a thousand things all of them wonderful and illuminating and then during the question answer period Someone will say but how does it apply in the classroom?
Or how can I build a test off of this? He's like well does do your tests bless the student and then you'll be There to help you put together a multiple choice. He's there to ground you in theory that should drive your test-making procedures, right? He's building the scaffolding from which you can build the house.
He's not gonna build the house for you I think it's a great and it's wonderful. I have the chance don't think I'll never learn about whatever he's talking about It's true, but you know about a lot of other stuff and it'll be great the whole time It feels like material is meant for contemplation not not meant to be immediately implemented Yeah, I've certainly heard him say before that he despises this kind of attempt to separate between the practical and the theoretical Because those two should be like merged together into one and so I think he sees what he does as deeply practical It's just influence everything that you do, but that doesn't mean that it's how to write the test or implementation might be left to Lesser mind to the left of the listener right to figure it out from someone I think an Andrew Kern I was looked up on my phone that you know the flomerian engraving the flomerian picture of the man who's looking underneath into the universe Hey, this is what I'm making reference to maybe we can will Put it on show whatsoever. That's what I think of when I think of Andrew Kern I think the person who like is goes behind and looks into the ordered cosmos of the universe And that's what that old medieval etching or painting is the person who's cool Yeah getting in underneath so for those who are listening the picture is I think it's maybe even Copernicus, but it's somebody who is Sort of lifted up the side of the sky as if it was a curtain and has poked his head out underneath that and behind it is all of the Sort of inner workings of the cosmos the spheres and the stars and the heavens and he's looking at it with like a booble With like a whoa look on his face, and I've always thought that that was a great image And that's why I think of when I think of Andrew Kern is someone who's gone and done that and it's coming back and trying to relate it to us I think that's a great metaphor for it, which then It's almost there's too much knowledge to impart to be able to do that S distinctly or concisely right. There's just too much to want to give to someone His if you're I think my introduction to his long form speaking was uh, he did this I think it's a six part series teaching from a state of rest.
Are you all in person for this? No, okay, I don't know if it was at SEL or where But again, it's it's six parts. It's I think probably it's probably roughly six hours long and It it covers everything from like Just a history of all intellectual thought to homeschooling to classical education to operating in a high school Which I like operating in a school like it just it is about everything in this contemplation of what is it to what is what is rest? I'm something I'm sure we brought up in the podcast before is that this word school comes from school leg Which means leisure or rest so then looking for a way to incorporate that into how one does school or how one educates someone?
um, it's uh The same thing that you all have said I could see someone being very frustrated if you're looking for I want to make my homeschooling program More restful. How do I do that? But in terms of like a worldview that will show you how to think more profoundly about these topics exactly what I think Andrew is Is spot on with or in this selection of essays this to talk at all about like what kind of church denomination he grew up in I think it's in there if you want to flip because of the story I remember is I think I remember listening to a podcast where he was talking about himself as a young man given an opportunity to preach a sermon when he was young and And I and what I've seen remember is if he's not if he didn't grow up in the brethren church He grew up in something pureton like that because and he um because in those those denominations It's almost like a rite of passage or a thing that you do is that you let the young man You'd say to them like all right, you're gonna be speaking a word this Sunday I mean so in the brethren church there's a time of In the worship service where it's quiet anybody who has a word from anyone who can sort of stand up and give some thoughts They have about their own like devotional bible reading time Until you stand up and you give a little like tiny little impromptu sermon And he was making reference to having done that when he was a kid He was talking about like embodied rhetoric and the use of rhetoric and um like speaking words to a community And he was like everyone in the community knows the bible better than me They're not learning anything from a 14 year old giving a sermon But there's something about the act of having of giving the 14 year old the responsibility of giving a sermon he was making drawing some connections about About the community community that rhetoric brings and I was listening to this as I was working in the yard one day And I had to stop and like sit down and I because that was the I grew up Going my grandparents were brethren and when I you know we would get those opportunities at bible camp They'd be like are you're gonna preach a little sermon and you're like 14 you're like oh sweet I'm like obviously I'm smart and pious enough to do this and you say something hopefully not heretical Um and anyway, it was he was just talking about like the nature of rhetoric in community of people You're not teaching them before their benefit But it is for their benefit because you are learning how to teach and preach and um, I just remember that that struck me because That was a thing that I was asked you know That was something that every sort of 14 year old in the brothering world gets to do at some point and I just remember doing that I totally forgotten that I had done that and just bringing that back just maybe very like sort of nostalgic and thankful I was wondering if he had if that was his denomination that he grew up in or something similar to that if they made reference to in the book I don't there's a prologue that talks about his his growing up I didn't I don't see that in there. I could have sworn there's something about it, but it's not coming up right now I apologize for that Um, just in line with kind of this topic.
This is an essay from Heidi White on Andrew and Socrates It's again this kind of question about the theoretical versus the practical She's talking about having about listening to Andrew Kern at the Searching National Conference I quickly learned why many held Andrew in high esteem He was eloquent articulate inspirational brilliant wise, but it was more than that minutes into listening to his plenary address on mimesis I recognized that I would have to rearrange my daily life to pursue the goodness he was revealing My urgent response was neither the result of his celebrity magnetism nor his own ego The man is professionally free of both it was something more I'm sorry, something much stronger and more dangerous. Andrew's words were more than smart and skilled. They were true And since truth reduction I responded accordingly That is that part is funny because I leave later in the essay she then says the exact same thing of like If you heard Andrew again and then also had to rearrange your life or daily life to accommodate that like that's the effect of listening to two talks like this That's true. Have you had to change anything after a current talk?
Yeah, I you listen. I think you listen to Andrew and you're I can't Try to think if there's one thought constantly about how my tests bless my students. Yeah, yeah Um, the thing is there's just yeah, there's much in the he's had such an influence that I'm like did I hear that from Andrew? Or did I hear that from other people who've heard that from Andrew?
Yeah Yeah, teaching blessing your students. I think the the universality of things. Um, I mean, yeah, there's yeah He makes you want to Just read yes, don't make me want to be smarter. Yeah, you might just want to read and like absorb everything and He's made me yeah the thing that probably the biggest influence was making me think realize that Shakespeare was Shakespeare fitted into this classical world more than sort of the Shakespeare that I was taught which was like Shakespeare was like a post-modern man embarrassed to be born in Elizabethan England.
That's sort of how Shakespeare is presented like he his his tastes are tastes Anyway, the part I'm trying to look for is in line with what you're talking about of um Like the ideas are seep so deeply into the way that you think about classical education is I'm sure I won't find the exact quote for it right now But the the last essay is by Renee math is a grateful apprentice about Renee's involvement with Cersei coming through the apprenticeship program to then be involved in in working with Cersei and it's essentially that of like The idea that again the the core of it is that these ideals of what it is to do classical education or to be in a classical environment You can't like writing out the rules for it won't work. These things are embodied in specific people This is not distant from Andrews idea of mimesis that we've learned by this kind of making process Where yes, the student is the one learning but the teacher is modeling this Love of an engagement with the material that then the students are mirroring back and then and then doing for themselves Yeah, just just this like yeah All I'm trying to get to is that um these things have to be embodied in people and this is something that Andrews been able to do for 20 years And I think that's part of what is important about his contribution Not just the writing he does what the speaking he does But just being the kind of person that you then want to be in the classroom right to mimic that Um, I'm trying to have the number one not one be a little bit like him. Is that I want to hear more of the dinner with everything like uh, Do you know I think dinner? Yeah, would you ask me questions?
Would you all do it was probably the closest thing that I've ever felt to being like Like a Jew with a rabbi like like he was like this elder But like the scenario was like that like he was staying there and it was a bunch of young men We were all sort of like huddling close and like leaning in and trying to listen and he was just sort of like talking and we were just I had an odding I know I just in my mind that that was that was the image that I had was like You know the the rabbi and then all the sort of um the people who were sitting around wanting to learn from him You remember the dinner? No, but what happened here. I remember the one with least marco's no That was different dinner. That was just awesome.
We marco's yeah, um, oh, this was a large thing This was a this was a dinner. I know I've been to dinners with him Yeah, yeah And he just sort of continued to talk about whatever the topic at hand was yeah My proudest moment was pitching my iliad book 22 idea if you're a listener You can go back and listen to that episode about how it's a microcosm of the whole iliad I was like am I late? Am I late? Come to the party?
Does everybody already know this already? Is it there? And he's like it's there. I've never heard it before.
I was like, yeah, I had a little party in my head and tried that too excited So I feel pretty good. Um, I'll move on to another essay maybe we'll Spend a little time here and then wrap up. So another contributor to this book about say is mr Joshua Gibbs, so of course we're gonna read sections from that. Um, so I think yeah, I think Josh might have given this quote when we were During the interview he did a couple months ago for the podcast.
Uh, this is it's titled willing to die as this is Joshua Gibbs Many years ago at a conference of assertions to conference. I overheard Andrew Kern say a classical school has to be willing to die I was still on the first stage of my career which meant the claim was a revelation I'll give someone a justification for that in a second But uh, just to start with that idea a classical school has to be willing to die. Uh, what what comes to mind? Like what is he?
Yeah, what do you think you're talking about? I know what I mean? I don't know if I was at the same talk. I've heard him say it that a school has to be have principles that it's going to hold to And even if no one is willing to cut if like no one's gonna come to the school and like follow by those principles Oh, you're not gonna be able to pay the bills.
Um, you're gonna you should you be willing to die for die and be okay with that as opposed to then become like your you know, you know, you're What's the word I'm looking for? You're one of the mill milk toast sort of regular school That's just that churning out grades and graduates and so you're putting in more sports programs and charging higher tuition and going for it Yeah, can't serve both God money. Yeah, right if your school is there to make money and stay alive then you're right What's bog variety that was the term I was trying to remember? That's bog variety.
Bog variety is like your standard. You're kind of just like Find it in a bog. No. Yeah, it's just sort of like your I know it's bog variety.
You don't use this in America No, I assume you make up all these phrases. I don't make these phrases up. You used another one during our ama something about mittens. What was that one?
Oh, and if you mean something definitely Canadian. I've never heard that one. That's just you have your sweet hands For hockey common or garden garden variety garden variety bog variety that kind of thing. It's fine.
Sorry I was gonna keep going with it and then well, uh, it's more thoughts inexperienced teachers often have a disproportionate fear of losing their jobs They go into meetings with angry parents thinking what do I have to say to pacify these people and they accordingly backpedal and apologize for whatever offensive thing They've said it on no matter how necessary or just it was many young classical schools suffer from the same temptations Which play young teachers and so they are not sufficiently austere and authoritative in their communications and iconography They smile too much as Darcy complains of Jane Bennett and Aaron presenting themselves as families and communities and businesses But not institutions. Josh. Yeah, it's spends a lot of time talking about Meetings with angry parents, which leads me to think that he's had many meetings And I have not had very man. And I often wonder I have had maybe in my life In 10 years.
I think I've had three parent meetings where a parent was upset about something that I had done or said and were they grade related? one was not one was grade related and The two that I remember but the thing is I just don't have very many of them I've had emails but like actual meetings and that may be four and that makes me think that like I'm not a good teacher I should be having more angry parents. I'm also very affable at least. I'm a Canadian So very tough does a really good job of filtering out parents that aren't on board for the kind of things you teach Right, so we're sort of they do the filtering beforehand.
So you don't have to defend yourself. I think you have a good administration That's also fielding a lot of them. Yeah, I think you're for sure sure sure sure sure sure That could be I will say most of his articles about those meetings or hypothetical meetings, right like he'll his Search the Institute blog post are usually like hypothetical. I know but they come up so frequently that I mean leads me to think that come from experience They come from experience.
That's perhaps fair Where AJ the ones you've had where they again, I assume it's like a kid gets a grade they don't like only Two or about one one one and a half was about grades. Yeah out of the four the other were was like a decision on a trip Yeah, the other one was about it like a thesis topic. Yeah, but I'm just the do you identify with this worry about the student about being liked essentially I mean that's what he's getting at here or do you identify as a new teacher of this desire to not make waves not stand for something to kind of If there's a disagreement defer let the other person have their have their side you identify with that at all or see it in teachers Yeah, I think there I think because education is promises such a big thing We are forming a child into an adult and the Pay-off the correct to know if you've done it correctly or if you've done it well is something that you're not going to see for a while That there for someone who is new and especially for classical schools, which are themselves also kind of new right our rediscovery There's a little bit of an anxiety in new teachers and in classical schools in general that like We hope that we get that this works Right and so when it starts to be difficult in the moment you need to have a tremendous amount of faith that we need to continue walking down this path And there's no there's no deviation that we can do any deviation away back to some kind of like Transactive like you're trading up your grades for for money or for like a claim in this world Like we're not going back to that kind of thing because that's not going to be good for the formation of your child Even though that's everything else in the world I think there's a lot of like anxiety that when the going gets tough It's like oh man, maybe we should just like do what everybody else is doing and Go easier and we can maybe charge a little more and like we're not gonna track we're gonna try more parents because I'm gonna be like I don't want to go some wacky school that's doing this like crazy thing. I just want my kids to go to A&M Whatever you filter those people out.
Well, that's what you hope That's I think what he means when he's talking about schools need to be willing to die which is you need to be willing to Yeah, to hold on to the to stay the course even if everyone else is gonna bail on you My species is a new teacher had nothing to do with things I had done justly and parents were complaining about it was largely I had no idea what I was doing and everything was a hot train wreck And so if parents were mad they probably had the reason to be yeah And so the the I have done a just thing and parents are mad doesn't That hasn't happened very often use a parent has a complaint. It's because I screwed up I didn't put enough information out for homework or I've had two where I was in the right and the parents were wrong Yeah, they're like two parents were right. I had been a doofus and they were right to call me on it So I don't know I don't have that I was overly weeling and Capitulative I was a mess. I think that's probably true for all brand new teachers is you're just trying to figure out your world It's not about like defending your just actions.
You're like, okay. I don't even know how to write a test Yeah, is that fair, Graham? I do think I think some of what he's talking about might be more at the again the founder stage Or it's two founders of you set this up. Can't we go easy on this?
Like do you really believe yeah is Latin really that important like, you know, like pick your thing Sure. He says a little more else is keep reading It may be embarrassing for a young school to adopt the iconography of an institution But it is a model that outlasts that of the family Our families are our families because we must love them We do not choose them and it is the fact that fathers and mothers are not chosen That means we are stuck with them also families do not die Sons move away, but they come back at Christmas However a certain family at a school is around until the children graduates And then the family leaves and does not come back I offer this long degree I'm skipping over a section I offer this long degree on the difference between family model schools and institutions Because while they may have overlapping qualities It never makes sense for a family model school to be willing to die At least no more sense than it makes for a family to be willing to dissolve itself So again the point here that if the way that the institution thinks of itself is we are a family Well, you don't get people out of a family Yeah, you you stick with them you fight through everything Or like you you work through things together, but you never change the nature of the relationship It's still you are a family and that he's contrasting with an institution where institutions say Some people are members, some people are not members and there has to be some dividing line there Is that what do you have thoughts on this kind of like family language versus institution language for? No, I mean, I don't I don't think veritas talks about us as like a big family I know that's not really a part of maybe that's part of some schools Especially in the early stages Probably have kind of had this like oh well you guys have been part of the school forever And your kids have always gone here and so we're gonna really make it work, but AJ and I've never really been in those higher level positions of Where those sorts of realities would come into play for us Yeah, so but I yes Thinking of a school as an institution is is We don't really have the history of it like we have church in America We've got churches and we've got families and we have Universities, but like our schools predominantly have been like government public schools And that's it and that has sort of its own thing but these sort of private institutions of bringing your child to like we have We understand of universities in college and what that means and what that looks like for the pant for the family and what but schools We don't really have the history of Private schools and that kind of thing we don't know England does but not really I think even thinking about Veritas as an institution is a little bit dangerous I think the temptation in both situations right talking about family languages putting the family above the the ideals And then if we talk about Veritas as an institution our danger is always putting the school above the things that we should be pursuing Veritas when this is one thing I appreciate always talks about not the institution not the families But what is true good and beautiful right? We are here to be faithful to do what God wants us to do and to teach things that are worth teaching And the moment we flip that language and say we are an institution working to preserve ourselves That's dangerous that gets into the territory that some colleges are in where they lost sight of their original ideals and are now simply there to perpetuate the college Yeah, that's what worries me about like endowments too because like that kind of separates that incentive of needing to stick to what's true Get people to come on board and kind of just follow up the path basically and you have funding forever I don't worry about that one down You're okay.
I'm totally fine with the down. I mean that means we can we can you know, it means you have principled people who are In the dark who are like leading the thing I'll keep going the institutional school is not simply willing to die but makes itself a living sacrifice and carries on a cruciform existence I think this is in line with what I do saying the institutional school has not simply rejected the sentimental ease and convenient marketing strategy of the family model school It is chosen to endure regular derision and assault unwavering loyalty to truth beauty piety and good taste will invariably lead to accusations of elitism Primitivism and self-importance the refusal to adopt fashionable Sloggins will mean an institutional school is perpetually on the cost of economic collapse fidelity to truth and beauty is rare Thus it is profoundly valuable and the world is willing to give quite a lot or offer to wait on Pidelity to truth and beauty is rare thus is profoundly valuable and the world is willing to give quite a lot or to offer it at least To the man who proves apostate the school which is willing to take its cues from These kind of things of modernity will be bested by the competition However, a school which rejects the spirit of the age will live on the cusp of death constantly riding the line between the red and the black It may sometimes die, but it will never be bested I'll just take this last paragraph and probably move toward wrapping up As a teacher, I've not always been willing to die But I remember Andrew's proverb was chagrin every time I cave to a petty request that I raise a grade or grease a parent teacher conference with flattery However on those occasions when I either resolve to teach honestly not flatter my students confess my faults And teach students to love not the world nor the things of the world. I have Andrew's dangerous proverb to think So it's on tense. I know it's what we like about it, right?
I know but it means this I feel like Gives as a man just gives off heat like he's just a furnace. Yeah, you like a stance for stuff. We gotta respect it So just to say someone uses riding the waves. I don't know your intent.
There's just no That's closer to that's closer to you, right? Like I don't think I feel like I'm a I don't give off heat Yeah, that's what I mean I think of you more like soil your your place where things can grow We love Gibbs we've talked about Josh gives a lot and we consume his books and read it and we've been doing conference and like it He's intense dude Doing the intro for love with is a little less than next one next book in the cool. That's awesome. I think it's an email Anyway, so I don't know Andrew Kern is great So he has I don't know go to the search against a website It's great in this book Libra ama quorum It again you get this kind of benefit of you get up to speed on an important person in classical education land You also for those who are if you are newer to classical education There's quite a bit of material in here that is just helpful for what is classical education Which again is probably the topic you'll hear Andrew talking about the most if you were to look at me He's got the ask Andrew podcast.
Yes, but listen to you But don't think that the title of the podcast is gonna be what the podcast is you mean a Yes, because you listen to the you really turn like oh cool. This is like here. We go August 12, 2020 How do I teach history classically wrong and wrong? I'm gonna go listen to that and learn how to teach history class It's gonna be talking about like astronomy I think I suppose in like two years isn't it March 2021 is all you're right March 2020.
Yeah, so it's a well The thing is a treasure trove going on with it. Excellent resource. So definitely check that out. Okay.
Is that a bowl of pickles? Yeah, yeah, it's a bowl of pickles. There's nothing else in there. There's nothing else in there.
I mean there'd be some sort of salad or burger It's just pickles. You're eating it all throughout your last episode on comp. Yeah, I was a little distracted What's the why why why pickles? I just found it in the fridge and I like pickles and so really I was the fridge.
Yeah, these are obviously for like the overflow chick-fil-a pickles right from Chick-fil-a day and Wednesday. Okay, I also Know what she's on the table. No, she's oh, I'm in America. Oh my gosh Yeah, who started this episode?
I didn't so this has been classical stuff. You should know with Graham Thomas and AJ Careful is Jason there. Um, so we love Andrew Kern. We love Cersei and what I know I like pickles and so We you can find us at the guys at classical stuff.net if you want to email us We're on Twitter, which like sometimes I like things Our websites classical stuff.net our patreon you can patronize us on patreon classical backslash classical stuff I don't know what it is.
Just some combination of what we're going to do. Yeah, school around you'll figure it out. Um And we think you see that. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next week.
Bye. Bye