Hi, welcome to classical stuff. You should know a podcast about classical books classical education old things and Three old guys. Well, I thought well one old guy. Oh My name is a birthday.
Thanks. My name is Graham Donaldson and I am with my partners in Classicism a J. Hanenburg right here and Thomas maybe hello and Thomas I feel like Crupting youth okay cool. I feel like you know is this a turn about it for you?
I feel like you know what I want to ruin their they want to go off and become like lawyers and doctors and politicians I think that's just that's not the good life. Yeah, I want them to live as Vagrance Wow as philosophy in vagrants. Yeah, I mean in pots. Yeah in a van down by the river.
Yeah, these are things I like to hear from high school teachers. That's great. That's so sabotage their progeny, so yours can succeed. That's right.
No, I think that Op is down and Old man yells a class. No, I anyway You think yeah today we're talking about this Graham's getting out that we're talking about Socrates kind of we're talking about a play piece We're talking about a hit piece again Socrates called the clouds by Aristophanes And so I guess we've talked about Socrates before I don't think we've done a play any of our stuff and uses plays before You know anything about this Aristophanes fellow? He's a playwright. Yeah comedian Yep, didn't like Socrates and his play the clouds is kind of like well It was actually admitted as evidence during Socrates's trial least according to Plato's apology Yep, and in it Aristophanes is portraying this character who is like kind of an idiot and wants to corrupt the youth Yeah, and does it through yeah, and so he's he's I guess maybe he's maybe Aristophanes thinks he's I don't know if he's running satire but he's definitely Contra Socrates he he thinks that the the endeavor the task that Socrates is doing with his socratic investigation is Ultimately bad for society.
Yes, and so he writes this play. Yeah, I've spoken about him You know us being a classical education podcast we probably have taken Socrates aside I know when 20 all did play though where we talked about wasn't the apology it was you throw it It was you throw yeah, and you're talking about these accusations against Socrates, you know like in general We're gonna take Socrates aside, you know in most things I'd say but even in that episode There was like part of I think was you maybe it was part of yours like people got a point about the Socrates guy That's my I've had my mind that that sketch the or we the baddies sketch like exactly like Socrates's whole project is to get people to like question Essentially everything in their lives and the thing what Graham was referencing is this accusation of corrupting the youth Is because you have these kind of upwardly mobile people who are supposed to go off and be doctors and lawyers who meet Soccer politicians like running Athens yes Which is you know you need some of those people to do that and he would kind of get them off of that path Right like they suddenly want to become philosophers instead I sit around and ask big important questions, but not run the city Send all your money send in your kid to like Yale or Harvard his first year philosophy class he comes home communist And so like you know like the charges made against Socrates are you know I think the part of that episode was to say trumped up right there they were you know that he was redirecting people to not pursue those projects that they were going after before it's probably Potentially overstated or I think one of the points that they didn't actually want Socrates to be killed They wanted him to pay a fine essentially and then it's Socrates who basically calls their bluff and is like you know If there's a problem with me, I'm gonna die for it said hey Socrates What's your punishment be and Socrates says you should give me free food for life? And that was what he asked that was what his punishment should be then he said well I'll pay a fine, but I suggest a two dollars or something like it should be like proportional to my income Which is nothing so and then that he ticked off enough people that they can Be sent into death. Yeah, and then you made reference to this But this play is pointed to as one of the reasons for Socrates being put to death I can get that section from this is from the apology written by Plato I'm gonna read the section that's relevant here I will begin at the beginning and ask what the accusation is which has given rise to the slander of me And which has encouraged me to let malatist proceed against me what do the slanderers say they shall be my prosecutors It I will sum up their words in an affidavit Socrates is an evil doer and a curious person who searches into things under the earth and in heaven and he makes the worst appear the better cause And he teaches the aforesaid doctrine to others That is the nature of the accusation and that is what you've seen yourselves in the comedy of Aristophanes who has introduced a man Who he calls Socrates going about and saying that he can walk in the air and talking a deal of nonsense concerning matters of which I do not pretend to know either much or little not Not that I mean to say anything disparaging of anyone who's a student of natural philosophy So, you know, how is this portrayal of Socrates coming about that he's taught that he's teaching up is down and down is up This play by Aristophanes, this play by Aristophanes called the clouds And a lot of people only knew Socrates because of the caricature in Aristophanes play.
Yeah, so exactly So I guess we'll just kind of go through this I think we always say that we don't think our episodes are gonna last an hour But this you know, this will probably be a shorter one if the play's not very long and if you find any of this interesting Just you know take an hour and you can go read this for yourself. It's not really not that long Part of what's interesting in the statement of its influence You know played 0.2 it as a reason that people know what Socrates is like is that this the clouds was not incredibly popular when it first came out It didn't win the it didn't win the festival that it was submitted to so It didn't get this like, you know incredible reaction right away But it's something that kind of over time stuck around and you know the charges against Socrates aren't still for a number of years after the Play comes out. So maybe not influential necessarily when it first comes out But something that kind of grows in popularity over time All right, and I plan on butchering every name in this cast so I apologize in advance the You know what kicks off the plays is there's this there's this man named strep sci-dies And he is an older fellow who has been he has a son the son's name is Dibidies and Strepsitis is in debt isn't that to a number of people and he needs to find a way to get out of debt to these people And so he's considering his options What can he do you know he married kind of an upwardly mobile woman who maybe has some connections not sure he can really go down that path He's gotten into all this debt because his son is really into horse racing So maybe there's something he can work out there, but you know He doesn't really want to sell anything or wouldn't be able to recover enough money And so he's trying to think through his options of what will make him a lot of money or what will get him out of having to pay his debts And what comes to mind is that there's this place where people go to get trained And then come out and they can talk their way out of debts like this is the reason Strepsitis wants to He initially will put himself into it later his son will get involved as well, but this place called the thottery the thottery So that's the place where Socrates is teaching and there are also a number of disciples of Socrates who teach at this place as well So the this opening is just it gets us this introduction to this older guy who's in debt with Strepsitis He has a son the Dibidies who is not particularly wanting to help out his father And so Strepsitis decides he needs to go get he needs to do something and so he he opts to go join the thottery. Okay, so I know I'm hoping you all get that the entire time.
Is that gonna be fun for y'all? It's currently fun good. Okay. I look forward to saying thought the entire time That was good people trying to like those lights over there.
Yeah, yeah So the thought is you can go and they'll teach you like the phrases you can say to get out of your credit card debt like that kind of thing Yeah, let's we can actually start reading it so the I sent you all the The manuscript that sent you all the text if you go for that first quote one rebuff shall not dishearten me It's a stroke sides Graham is gonna be reading this from his phone. So we're gonna say I said I can go get my copy of my class But we have a different to do well. You want to read from two different translations as we go I saw reading from stuff. I is at one roof.
Yes. Yes. I Can't do this very well Would you like to read from my computer? Who am I?
You'll let's have my disciple Graham is gonna be Strepsitis and AJ is gonna be a disciple. All right You will go I don't know we'll go for a little while all right I'm sure I should I should for warn that there may be instances of language that you need to change the word of so change it to a Less offensive term. I will do no such thing. You can say whatever words you'd like to but one thing I'd like to Yeah, we'll get through like these these comedies.
They got some ranch to them. So Yeah, let's start. This is fine to read online because it's well into public domain Yeah, we're getting from the state of air stuff and he's comes after us. Yeah Well, sometimes the translation is still in some of us weren't even previous readings.
No, I'm just saying like we might be legally I don't think we'll go for this. This is on the pretty open web. All right I'll read the stage directions and I think it'll just be the Strepsitis and disciple for a little while at least so let's go for it One rebuff shall not dishearten me with the help of the gods I will enter the thoughtery and learn myself. So he had just been his son had told him that essentially he didn't think that Strepsitis could succeed at going through the going through the thoughtery.
So he hesitates But at my age memory has gone and the mind is slow to grasp things How can all these fine distinctions these subtleties be learned making up his mind? Why should I dally thus instead of wrapping up the door slave slave he knocks and calls a Plague on you who are you strip side is the son of Fido of the Dema of a sina the disciple coming up the door You are nothing but an ignorant and a little fellow to let fly at the door with such kicks You have brought on a miscarriage of an idea pardon me, please for I live far away from here in the country But tell me what was the idea that miscarried? I may not tell it to any but a disciple then tell me without fear for I have come to study among you very well then But reflect the that these are mysteries lately a flea bit Charifon on the brow and then from there sprang on the head onto the head of Socrates Socrates asked Charifon how many times the length of its legs does a flea jump and however did he go about measuring? Oh, it was most ingenious He melted some wax seized the flea and dipped its two feet in the wax which when cooled left them shot with true Persian slippers These he took off and with them measured the distance.
Oh great Zeus. What a brain what subtlety I wonder what then you would say if you know another of Socrates's contrivance And why is it pray tell me? Charifon of the deem read this one before you yeah, this one you might want to change Oh, this is great. Yeah, well and after we answered this next question I think it's fine to say that word is fine just yeah Go for it.
Charifon of the deem of Speetia asked him whether he thought a nat buzzed through its propiscus or through its anus It's actually really good question doesn't that buzz through its question for you And what did he say about the nat? He said that the gut of the nat was narrow and then passing through this tiny passage there is driven with force towards the breach Then after the slender channel it encountered the rum which was distended like a trumpet and there it resounded Stonerously so the arse of a nat is a trumpet. Oh what a splendid asservation thrice happy soccer team Wait, wait are our survey our survey our surveyion? Our surveyion thrice happy Socrates it would not be difficult to succeed in a lawsuit knowing so much about a nat's guts Not long ago a lizard caused him the loss of a sublime thought what wait, please a lizard crapping on soccer wait one night Oh, yeah one night when he was studying the discourse of the moon and its revolutions And was gazing open mouth at the heavens a lizard crapped upon him from the top of the roof a lizard crapping on Socrates That's rich last night.
We have nothing to eat well What did he contrive to secure you some supper? He spread over the table a light layer of cinders Belling an iron rod of the wild then he took a pair of compasses and at the same moment unhooked a piece of the victim Which was hanging in the palestra and we still dare to admire the Thales open open this home of knowledge to me quickly Haced haste to show me Socrates. I long to become his disciple but you do please open the door Okay, so what's the what's coming across on this back and forth right here that it's useless speculation and also not very scientific Yes, exactly. That's the you know, how do we figure out what how high gnats jump?
We put their feet in wax and the measure by like these units of of wax feet basically back and forth Tell me it's wrong. Tell me it's wrong. I can't tell you what's wrong I think the point is that last part where it's you know I'm gonna win every lawsuit I go into because I know that the That's but is a trumpet right like that. It's so it's both unscientific It's also a waste of time right that these questions just don't matter to observe that user the fart jokes are my domain What is what has happened that you are reading this?
Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't think there are more for it's How long ago is that like why say yeah? Also Graham was describing your contributions Then I'll never forget The name reference this Socrates will show up later. He is Socrates is held in a basket.
He's high up in the air It's you know, the he's above kind of all of the the problem in questions beneath them is Socrates descending in a basket a famous stage A famous stage note in in theater history. I mean it's a very funny one in the play Are you know, I think I think enter Socrates descending in a basket is like a famous a famous stage note That is I mean that is the stage note that that is given there He has this he has a line in there. It's he departs the machine swings in Socrates in a basket exactly I think it's a Socrates line It's how can I study from below that which is above and that's why he has to be in a basket all the time because he wants to Be able to study the stars and it's the same thing where everyone is like ah profound Socrates what an incredible line So, you know Socrates the previous section was with a disciple of Socrates, but it's more of the same one soccer two shows up It's more of these silly questions back and forth The soccer two says that the reason he's up in the basket I'm traversing the air and contemplating the Sun so that same thing of basically wasting time on questions Asking things that don't matter aren't important potentially are unscientific for usual grandma's talking about before the next chunk of the play is Striped side he's trying to join the thoughtery trying to kind of get involved with it trying to learn But he's a very slow student It's it's primarily attributed to his age and the play that he's just kind of too old to be to be joining and going through this right now He's trying as hardest and always with the understanding that the reason he's doing this is to get out of his death eventually So I should raise this now That it seems like Aristophanes is understanding is that Socrates is basically a Sophist right? I actually don't remember if that's one of the accusations against Socrates is that he was purveying in sophistry His accusations were doesn't believe in the gods and it's corrupting the youth part of that was he says you just read it That I make the worst seem the stronger yes, which is so frustrating yes, um, which I guess will be our next section that we go into but Striped side he's tries to educate himself tries to make it through this program, but isn't it is ultimately unable to he implores his son to go into the The thoughtery to join with Socrates to be educated in a in sophistry He's not super keen on doing this.
He doesn't really want to because I was raising yes He's just like a good old good old Greek kid. Yeah, they do have all these funny things where it's like He's too healthy looking to be a philosopher like he he's gonna leave with pale skin and is either gonna fall out if he becomes a philosopher Because he's never gonna go outside ever again. So he's gonna be super unhealthy but Ultimately Striped side is is kind of able to encourage his son to show up to the academy to begin to enter But they the question becomes what is his son going to be taught as a part of the as a part of the school? And so that's the second quote if you see it there The character speaking is unjust discourse if you want to look for that So the the way the way this works is that Striped side is kind of gives up says a son is gonna take his place and instead join the school And then the question Socrates raises is well, what should we teach your kid once he's here?
Should we teach him just discourse or should we teach him unjust discourse in the translation that I read first before doing this open translation that we're reading from? It was the better argument and the worst argument are the names for these two different groups So Socrates says the just and unjust discourse themselves shall instruct him I shall leave you try it and in my the other translation I'm working with it says that Socrates takes one of these sides that he'll that in this translation It says that he takes the unjust discourse side So it's the same actor who plays Socrates then becomes the unjust discourse It's not I don't think that says that here But just to say that that's another one of those things that this becomes the kind of public portrayal of Socrates is that he's the purveyor of this unjust discourse We might just do a we'll do a probably a shorter section of this just to get a feel for it And then we'll skip with that second quote that I had there before so Socrates says the just and unjust discourse themselves shall instruct him I shall leave you Striped side he says but forget it not he must always always be able to confound the truth So again, sir, I'd he's wants to get out of his debts. That's what this is all about Okay, just discourse will be Graham obviously and then unjust discourse will of course be AJ So wait, so sir, sir, society's wants to learn how to do unjust discourse because he needs to be able to get out of his debt He actually entered into debts and he used to find a way out of them. He thinks that rhetoric is his way to do it So he has to earn the unjust.
Okay, yes, but we're gonna get this fight between the two discourses right? You're the justice in there It's a choice. It's not it you said it after I said it. Okay, so um justice course.
Let's let's go back and forth a little bit so Just and just of course unjust discourse come out. They are quarreling violently right come here shameless as you may be Will you dare to show your face to the spectators taking where you will I seek a throng so that I may the better annihilate me Do you forget who you are? I am Reasoning yes the weaker reasoning but I try them for you who claim to be the stronger by what cunning shriffs pray by the invention of new maxims Which are received with favor by these fools? He points to the audience to say rather by these wise men I'm going to destroy you mercilessly.
How pray? Let us see you do it by saying what is true I shall retort and shall very soon have the better of you first maintain that justice has no existence has no existence no existence What where is it it's with the gods how that of justice exists was Zeus not put to death for having put his father in chains This is enough to turn my stomach based in quick you are an old driveler and stupid with all and you a degenerate and shameless fellow What sweet expression an impious buffoon you ground me with roses and with lilies a parasite Why you shower gold upon me formally it was a hail storm of blows I deck myself with your abuse what impudence what tom foolery It is because of you that the youth no longer attend the schools The Athenians will soon recognize what lessons you teach those who are fools enough to believe you are overwhelmed with wretched and you you prosper Yet you were poor when you said I'm the misean Tullifus and used to suffer your wallet with maxims of pen dentulist in the blad Oh the beautiful wisdom of which you are now boasting madman But yet matter the sea that keeps you you the corruptor of its youth It is not you who will teach this young man you are as old and out of date as cronus Nay it will certainly be I if he does not wish to be lost and to practice verbosity only Two fiddies come here and leave him to beat the air you'll regret it if you touch him I guess we'll keep going this is fun the course leader stepping between them as they are just about to come to blows True to your quarrelings and abuse but you expound what you taught us formally and and you your new doctrine Thus after hearing each of you argue he will be able to choose but twixt the two schools. I am quite and I too. I'm sorry Who is to speak first?
Let it be my opponent He has my full consent then I shall follow upon the very ground he shall leave he shall have chosen and shall shatter him with a hail of new ideas and subtle Fancies if after that he dares to breathe another word I shall sting him in the face and in the eyes with our maxims which are as keen as the sting of a wasp and he will die So we skip down very well. We're gonna skip probably this entire section it um so justice course begins arguing for The tradition of the city these festivals that they used to have this kind of respect for again tradition Parents elders, but he does it in this very strange way where he's talking about the like incredible parties that the old timers used to throw in their back in their day It ends up being like a strange argument the point seems to be that we have these traditions We just happen to do them because we've always used to do them and that if you kind of describe them as they are they just they sound You just you wouldn't re-implement any of these parties or festivities if you were to redo it again Unjust says that because there's like no significance to the past we can throw all of it off We don't need to respect tradition, which is the the thing that just discourse is trying to argue for Um, the the end of the argument is that line that I had sent you all before that starts with the unjust discourse saying who left him in the lurch It's I guess we can just go through it because it's another funny section. So Let's start with unjust discourse with the ellipsees who left him in the lurch So the only point of bringing this stuff up is that like Uh, it's delightful. It's very funny.
It's like it's very it's much Is wrong to the wrong term? It's okay. It's much wrong to you then like when I think of like what is like old? What's an old play like or what's a classic like this is not my getting radish up?
It took us to first go to it reminds me of that play where the what is it? What's that play where the Spartan women decide to withhold this astronaut? Which is also by uh airsofting is the same guy. Oh, so he's like full of sexy times scandal splinter.
Yes, exactly right. Um, so that's just so justice courses like you are If we follow your advice, there's gonna be punishment to what you're saying people can get radish Yeah, they're gonna get radishes and it's not gonna be pleasant. Um, uh, we don't have to read the rest of it because it just repeats that over and over again But what is repeated over and over again is that like all of the playwrights all of the musicians all of the tragic poets Engaged in this infidelity and therefore like all of our art comes from these people who we would call immoral So justice discourse is arguing against the people who like created the culture of the city over time and so unjust discourse says there's no problem of engaging in infidelity because the punishment is something received by the heroes of Athens and then Justice course openly gives up and says you've proven what's the I'm beaten Debotches in the name of the gods receive my cloak. I pass over to you your ranks And then he he leaves and gives up Essentially unjust discourse is able to maneuver around justice discourse to say that the thing that was supposed to be claimed as bad Infidelity is actually okay because it's something done by like the everyone we respect everyone we respect so unjust discourse in this uh dialogue that we've Sorry didn't skip over enough my bad.
Um wins that wins that debate between the two of them which then leads to uh If i did but he's choosing unjust discourse to be the one that he's going to run from the kids like oh man is awesome Yeah, uh, and then so unjust discourse before he leaves says don't worry to strip society Don't worry. I shall return him to you and accomplish so fist Uh, and then fight deputies leaves with unjust discourse and time passes and that's what uh, fight deputies is gets to learn he has to learn how to out maneuver his opponents and win at any cost All right, so let's go to the next part. I claim of you as well. Yeah So what happens is fight deputies then comes out of the thottery and he is prepared to defend his father against these debts They get into this discussion about when The summons for a trial related to debt occurs and that's what uh, we'll start with the strip sides line What has that to do with the old and the new okay my strip sides?
Yes, a j for deputies. Yes What has that to do with the old day and the new he has fixed two days for the summons the last day of the old moon and the first day of the New but the deposits must only be paid on the first day of the new moon and why did he also named the last day of the old? So my dear sir that the debtor is being there the day before might free themselves by mutual agreement or that else if not the creditor Might begin his action on the morning of the new moon Why then do the magistrates have the deposit paid on the last of the month and not the next day? I think they do is the gluttons do who are the first to pounce upon the dishes being eager to carry off these deposits that they have them paid In a day too soon splendid to the audience I you poor brutes who serve for food to ask clever folk you were only down here to swell the number true blockheads sheep for shearing heap of empty pots Hence I will sing a song of victory for my son and myself.
Oh happy strep sieties What cleverness is thine and what a son thou hast here thus my friends and my neighbors will say jealous at seeing me gain all my suits But come in I wish to regale you first they both go in a moment later a creditor arrives with his witness And we'll we'll skip over that next part But essentially one credit the point about this two-day thing is that you have these two days that are laid out of when the Complaint against the debtor can be made and when the payment needs to be made Um, but those are two different days. So essentially at two points in the law It's referenced as there's a complaint and then the person needs to pay It's referenced as one day in a different place. It's referenced as two days And so my deputies is logic is to say how can two days be two days be one day therefore none of these debts need to be paid He finds a label in the law basically that allows strep sieties to get out of this uh Out of his debts So what we just read strep sieties is celebrating. That's the last part that Graham just read that It's gonna be awesome because we can we're gonna get out of all this.
Oh, oh happy strep sieties is the line right there Uh, doesn't anyone want to take a guess at kind of what what happens from here? He gets on his debts and does everything in happily ever after? No, he's lost his son. His son's like an idiot.
Oh, so you think he's like too stupid now to do anything else? Yeah, um, it's uh, you know, I think as teachers you might uh, I think you'll like wear this in well You'll like parts and dislike others. Uh, let's go to that last one. Oh, oh neighbors.
We're not doing the eiclame of you the 12 no That was that next part there. It's just there are two or three debtors that come against him and strep sieties And if I did he's are able to fin each one of them off by out logicing them essentially So it's right. He wants he doesn't have to pay his debts. I'll read the chorus line right before that And I haven't there's a as in most Greek plays.
There's a chorus here The chorus is I'm excited for the people on youtube to see a J swadding a fly And it's just going around my face. I'm trying to create a video you want to see it So it's gonna look you just lost your mind halfway through this episode Which I don't blame you, but it's just very funny. I'm sorry if I've been blowing on the the pop filter if you Hear me blowing on the microphone. It's just this stick and fly will not leave me alone.
Now. I remember what happens to four Yeah, I did it. Yeah The score is throughout and the chorus is made up of these kind of like demigod creatures are the clouds And so this kind of feeds into that other claim made against Socrates is that he believed in these other gods This is a part of that is that the people that support the school of the thottery whatever Are this other side of gods other than the traditional Greek gods But uh, they're lying right before stripes ides is whether does the passion of evil lead here is a perverse old man Who wants to cheat his creditors, but some mishap which will speedily punish this rogue for his shameful scheming's cannot fail to overtake him from today radish For a long time. He has been burning to have his son know how to fight against all justice and right and again Even the most iniquitous causes against his adversaries everyone.
I think this wish is going to be fulfilled But may have may have will he soon wish his son were dumb rather. Oh, his son's gonna turn it on his dad He's a new power. So he's rushing out with the deputies after oh neighbors Kids been fellow citizens help help to the rescue. I'm being beaten out my head.
Oh my jaw scoundrel. Do you beat your own father? Yes, father. I do see he admits he is beating me course.
I do you villain you parasite you gallows bird The second time parasite is killing of a parent. Mm-hmm. Go on repeat your epithets call me a thousand other names if it please you the more you curse the greater my amusement Oh, you dirty arced cynic Sorry, yes, that's pretty good. That's pretty good.
That's pretty nice. So how fragrant the perfume you breathe forth in your words Do you beat your own father? Yes by Zeus and I'm going to show you that I do right in beating you Ouch, can it be right to be a father? I will prove to you and you shall own yourself vanquished Own myself vanquished on a point like this is the easiest thing in the world Choose whichever of the two reasonings you like which reasonings the stronger and the weaker miserable fellow Why am I the one who had you taught how to refute what is right and now you would persuade need his right to son should beat his father?
I think I shall convince you so thoroughly that when you have heard me you will not have a word to say well I'm curious to hear what you have to say we skip in the course Uh, I'm not gonna sing it consider Well old man how you can best triumph over him his brazenness shows me that he thinks himself sure of his case He has some argument which gives him nerve note the confidence in his look and the leader of the chorus says But how did the fight begin tell the chorus you cannot help doing that much? I will tell you what was the start of the quarrel Uh at the end of the meal as you know, I bathe him take his liar and sing me the air of samanides Which tells of the fleece of the ram he replied bluntly that it was stupid while drinking to play the liar and sing like a woman When she is grinding barley just to what's happening here is that the court the leader of the chorus is asking what caused this conflict? Why are they fighting? And so if sides is giving the context of why fight it is beating him he wanted me to give him a song at dinner Yes, it's exactly yeah Why by right side to have beaten and kicked you the very moment you told me to sing That is just how he spoke to me in the house furthermore He added that samanides was a detestable poet However, I mastered myself and for a while said nothing Then I said to him at least take a Myrtle branch and recite a passage from acialist to me For my own part he had once replied I look upon acialist as the first of poets for his verses role superbly There are nothing but incoherence bombast and turgity Yet still I smothered my wrath and said then recite one of the famous pieces from the modern poets Then he commenced a piece in which he rippity shows over her a brother who violates his own uterine sister Then I could no longer restrain myself and attacked him with the most injurious abuse Naturally he retorted hard words were hurled on both sides and finally he sprang at me Broke my bones bore me to the earth strangled and started killing me I was right what not praise your abilities the greatest of our poets So just so the societies that ask was kind of old timey poem and fight deputies his responses to say it's trash And he doesn't want to recite it doesn't want to sing it So he recites the new raunchy stuff.
Yes, that's exactly what happens And so then which is fight deputies is pointing to why not praise your deputies as strategies if you want to he the greatest of our poets he the greatest of our poets ah If I by dare to speak but the blows would rain upon me harder than ever undoubtedly and rightly so Riley of what impudence to me who brought you up when you could hardly list I guess what you wanted If you said well, I brought you your milk if you asked for ma'am ma'am, I gave you bread That's actually stop because there's a weird part later on in that section But like the point stirs I'd ease will make is that he gives I don't want to read that isn't that weird Okay, you read all this other stuff and you'll read that one finally reading ahead and whatever That stirs I'd is like meeting every need of A fight deputies and that fight deputies kind of owes him as a result of that But the whole point is if I did he's will respond and push back on every one of these claims Let me I'll just I'll start scooting toward the the the end of it just since we're getting there The question then is what What should what happens next I'm trying to get to the part where it happens I'll try and find the exact section, but essentially Strip Cities sees that he's going to lose this debate with Fidepities who is now better trained and better able to articulate why you know beating his father is okay There's a part where strip side Fidepities gets his father to admit that like as a son strip Cities would hit his kid And that now that they're adults that then makes it okay for the son to attack the father They're you know It opened with fight deputies offering to give the stronger or the weaker arguments We give a few different reasons for why this the beating was was permitted Strip Cities and at the end is just beside himself of not knowing what to do Strip Cities has a section that starts Oh exclamation what madness and maybe searching what madness will get you there faster I just saw the part is it where he goes to I don't know something. It's a very intimate if you're there Let's this is this is Strip Cities's response to quite a bit he's doing to start with it. Oh what madness I had lost my reason when I threw over the gods through Socrates's seductive phrases And I turned to the statue for me. Oh good Hermes.
Do not destroy me in your wrath Forgive me. They're babbling had driven me crazy be my counselor. Shall I pursue them at law or shall I? Porter and I obey you are right no lawsuit, but uh let us burn down the home of those partners here Zantheus here take a ladder come forth and arm yourself with an axe now Mount upon the thottery demolish the roof if you love your master and may the house fall in upon them Oh bring me a blazing torch There was more than one of them arch imposters as they are on whom I am determined to have vengeance It's gonna be the disciples from within oh oh come torch do your duty burst into full flame What are you up to what am I up to why I am entering upon a subtle argument with the beams of this house within oh Who's burning down our house the man who's cloak you have appropriated You are killing us that is just exactly what I hope unless my axe plays me false or I fall and break my neck That's a coty is appearing at the window.
I'm like my good. Yeah, of course. Um hi. You fell on the roof What are you doing up there mocking Socrates's manner?
I'm traversing the air and contemplating the sun What was upon me? I'm suffocating and I'll ask you that's a second cycle And I'll actually burnt up since the second I'll be burnt up. Sorry. I'll keep trying you insulted the gods You studied the face of the moon chase them strike and beat them down forward They originally deserve their fate above all by reason of their blasphemies and the leader of the chorus says so let the chorus file off the stage It's part is played So burned down the economy essentially burns down the place where the flossers get trained up and kills the disciples and Yep, and that is the end of the clouds.
Hello. You follow the roof Imagine if you're like sardis watching this in the audience you're like huh, I'm trying to I think he did go to see it He does because he makes reference about an apology See um, so uh again I've only given you kind of certain sections of it and apologies for not cutting out all the the fun around two parts But um what do you think what do you find this argument compelling of so again? Airstomphonies is coming in with this really heavy like these philosophers are bad. They're doing a bad thing That's undermining the city.
Do you find any of this compelling is it just all slander? What do you make of it? I mean obviously what Airstomphonies is saying is like turning it into an absurd thing but he doesn't have a point in saying that Socrates does have a knack of grinding peoples to a halt with indecision because they can't come to like precise definitions about virtue or or just where justice comes from that kind of thing so I can imagine that if you are Talking to somebody who talks to Socrates and was convinced by Socrates your vision of Socrates would be somebody who is like Turning you know, upwardly mobile well-meaning kids into like yeah, the well actually like, you know insufferable first year philosophy student youth and And yeah, and so then this is the eternal debate about like is Socrates good for the city or bad for the city is is Well, if what to take his primary disciple Plato as an example Plato had some pretty weird ideas about how to say should be around right kids in common and like Rigged sexual lottery and lying to all the military and no sad dirges no plays and no like all the music was in major key and sung for marches and Take the kids out and see violence. I'm used to it like all kinds of crazy stuff and yeah But if you go to like if you try to get to the basics of soccer What we think of Socrates is thought that perpetual question And it's asking to try to get to the very heart of the issue and to try to get like real like You know, do the gods love it because it's just or is it just because the gods love it like that's the quintessential Socratic question I think yeah, I think some of these questions are worthwhile but With only this is a credit method.
This is why we try to balance the socratic method with mythos, right? You can you can question you can chip and chip and chip away at a question until you really have nothing left But at some point you have to be able to point to the good and say that's clearly good. Like I know what it is That's it and I'm not gonna you know Yeah, which Socrates thinks that he is doing right wasn't that also a part of your episode is that sogritese thinks there is a good that is not Chip away at yeah, at least it's so in Socrates's defense at some point He does have to ascribe that there is sort of like a foundational starting point If you want to call it the myth like there is some kind of objective good that you can start with So he's not completely relative as or sorry. He's isn't just totally 100% dialectic until nothing is left.
I'm asking questions until everything is gone He offers things but he but the things that he offers he has to offer as a priori things as like you know, you as things that you You pause it because they're before experience or a priori which are stuff and he doesn't air stuff He's just thinks that sir sarketese is playing like just linguistic games And that I guess the time is it's always the time right and that You know the I guess the counterpoint is that sarketese is doing something good for these kind of upwardly mobile people that they would Lead these lives. Maybe there's like some they wouldn't be totally fulfilled. They wouldn't be answering important questions He's kind of saving them from that right. Whereas eristophanes would look at that and say they're throwing their lives away So like to follow after this.
Yeah, it's like sarketese is in many ways sort of having is trying to like awaken the conscience in the youth That they're not just like mindlessly going about their lives if they don't have solid reasons for doing what they're doing but by awakening the conscience in youth you're also like Opening them up to being like to radically changing the course of their lives based on The decision that they're making right now because their conscience was shaken in You know goodness and vice and all that kind of stuff. So I don't know I always come back I land on I don't really know how to think about sarketese is he like this real you see this sort of helpful paragon or is he kind of like you're just annoying Yeah, probably both right I thought you all would find interesting also that um kind of moral education piece of at the end of clouds of that as But if it is his taught to kind of undermine the morality of like honoring your debts He then also is undermining essentially everything that's taught him. Yeah, what's dad He didn't read this part. He threatens to be his mother and then that's what leads to uh, Strip's IDs burning down the thoughtery of like this this entire endeavor is bankrupt Um, I don't know if there's more to say there, but just something I thought you all would find interesting I mean he's surprised he was trying to find out a way to get out of his debts.
He wanted criminal action Yeah, he yes, and he got it right and he got it Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be an interesting part of it that there's like a complicity of the of the parent in this right it's not just the kids fault So this isn't just uh the kids these days kind of sorry, right? The kids these days were built. Yes, by the decisions of the parents Yes, because even uh Socrates is closer to the stripesides or the the fathers days. Yes, stripesides then to the sun So that's uh, that's the clouds I've talked about it for a while, but I just finally there's your episode Um, it's good.
Uh, it's funny. You gotta be you know the translation that I got um, what is this? The focus classical library we could read like actually none of it on the podcast So the one that the open source one or whatever it's called that we just read is a much more tamerage on the story So, um, yeah apologies for any of that stuff cool, but it's uh, it's a These Greeks they have funny plays. They have funny plays.
I don't know what you want me to say Well, it still makes me go when people think about classicism as this highbrow high-minded definitely high vocabulary nothing somebody Yeah place. It's definitely not that not at all. So you should um, uh, don't let your parents know you're re-narest offinies that these dirty books Yeah Anyway, this has been classical stuff you should know with graham thomas and aj Um, hopefully no youth have been corrupted during the course of this podcast. Um, and now they're gonna go and read our stuff and Really impressive.
Yeah, sorry. Um, do we still do classical stuff? You got wrong? Sure.
Uh, I got a classical stuff I got wrong on my last uh plant that's an episode I completely butchered the the um, the john of gaunt, uh, like Like who his brothers were and all this kind of stuff. I kind of said that his brother was Henry the fifth when his brother was not hundred fifth He was Henry the fifth like grand great uncle. Uh, his brother was um was the original it was like it was a third Edward the third was his brother who died and then the anyway I I goofed it up, but john of gaunt that is where the duke of york's line comes from but uh, he wasn't related to Henry the fifth as a brother But that's like a great uncle or something. So there you go.
I'd like to find something that's really really worked up about that So thank you. I mean this is I can sleep. It's it's the history of a whole country and they can feel pretty passionately All right, next one's gonna be a plant engine episode, right? I think so.
You should record that. All right. Thanks everyone. Bye