239: Hermeneutics

Hello and welcome to classical stuff. You should know a podcast about books and ideas and philosophy and whatever we've been thinking about recently My name is Thomas Magby. I'm joined as always by mr. Graham Donaldson.

Hello and mr. Adrian and Bergman Now I probably should have looked this up beforehand. We've been at this for a while right guys Does anyone know how many episodes we're up to ballpar? 238 inch somewhere around there now something that listeners may not know is that there are some kind of like consistent underlying themes You must listen very closely to all of our recordings to get the the message behind it Now Graham's gonna walk us through some of those principles today And then you can go back and listen to all 238 hours of us talking and kind of pull out some of those themes That's what that's what you're talking about today.

We're talking about hidden secret messages. Yes that are hidden inside Yeah, there's 238 hours of us talking that sounds exhausting That's even understanding because we have in between episodes plus amas. Yeah a lot people listen to this Windy is has never felt more palpable than right now. Yeah, so I mean to get through every single episode You would have to play episode one through episode two thirty eight for like a week and a half straight.

Yeah, no break No break between episodes and you've got push down Yeah, that's actually I mean we can have it's not that much in like in seven years or whatever Yeah, that windy. Yeah, okay. All right. No, no nonstop for however many days you just said that's pretty good I mean, how much you think you talk a week?

Just generally not that much right? I hope not you sleep for eight hours a day roughly should Should listen. Yeah, thanks. I'm not talking like all day long.

Yeah, we are on the are anyway, so we are going to be talking about We're gonna be talking about kerbnudix we're gonna be talking about interpretation now this is going to be geared mainly towards the art of interpreting scripture as I Realize that I'm like this episode and the one that I have planned for the next one are both like I'm really leaning into the rigid dogmatism Stick of my persona. I like that Is that a going the other way? We have it so a long time ago We did an episode on this on a live one and I wanted to sort of just add some thoughts to this and also because Well, we'll sort of get to it because I think there's the the wrong or the some bad habits of biblical interpretation can very easily creep into churches and people's individual lives and also into like the cultural expression and understanding of Christianity that I think can actually be quite bad and And maybe we'll save the ones for the maybe we'll save the ones that I'm really concerned about for the between episode But anyway, there's I don't want to get to it. So how to read and sort of understand the Bible so the in the Christian life there's kind of Different there's like three different reasons we probably think of others But I sort of think about there's three sort of different arenas where we have the Bible be something that is influencing our sort of Faith life one is your own personal reading of it in some sort of devotional setting The other one is when it is preached exegetically to a congregation and so like a pastor or a standing up and doing a sermon or giving a homily And then the last one is when you are trying to put together Like theological positions about certain topics now those aren't mutually exclusive But they are sort of three slightly different ways of reading the Bible now that is primarily for thinking about it in terms of like a Christian believer Who is reading scripture?

There's also you can read it just like how you would be reading a historical text by sort of thinking okay? How did this book come to came to be and you can sort of read it in that more academic setting and I can't think of it there any others. I'm like a narrative like reading it like you would read the Iliad Wait a minute. Yeah, but in terms of like when Christians talk about reading the Bible They are sort of making they're usually not talking about in that academic way where it's like okay I wonder You know is the book of Genesis to how many sources did it come from?

Did it was it piece together from different kinds of authors or different kinds of writers? That's that's a way of reading and it's very different than if you were going to sort of sit and read like the Iliad when Christians say reading and interpreting the Bible they're usually meaning a bunch of different things So stick one on a time here. Let's start with I don't know which one to start with Yes, good question. Yeah, go for you read the Bible differently and there's like shouldn't there be a consistency across?

I don't know well, that's actually I kind of think there isn't okay. No I think that there are going to be ones that are more important and take precedence But I think that there is leeway So I think actually the first one is maybe the the edge case and that is if you were reading the Bible like for some kind of Personal time of devotion. This is where I think you you have a little more Sort of license with the interpreting of something for yourself. So Let me give you an example.

I have a journal at home of I've been keeping since 2005 I haven't I've definitely dropped off once I got married so in 2010 when I got married There's a lot less entries so from 2005 to 2010 It's like the bulk of it and then there's like little bits here and there but it is thoughts prayers and basically like writing out conversation between My heart to God while I was reading a specific section in the Bible This is not a unique practice to like this is people this all time There's there's a whole host of different ways of using the Bible for personal devotion. There's like the O Devina Maybe do you want to tell us what I did to be in this as the anilkin? No, I mean it's a way of reading scripture I mean kind of lots of things but it's like putting yourself in different places in that story as you read it So you read the book a lot you read the story of Lazarus and John 11 And you are pretending to be there yourself and try to like think about what things look like and felt like and smell like and maybe not Like they're different perspectives within even that one thing That's right and you're doing that because you're trying to sort of embody that story So what when Christians are doing personal devotion reading Sorry, I was going back to this this journal I go back and I read it and there are things where I would be reading something in Hosea where it's talking about I don't know like Israel being wayward from God and in my own life I'd be thinking like that rings true for me in whatever circumstance you're going in that is so reading Scripture and seeing the different stories or reading yourself into the stories or seeing like oh man Just like how Israel needed needs to be saved through the Red Sea like I can see how that can play out in my life Like that is a perfectly acceptable thing for people to be doing whether reading the Bible privately like those become problems if you are going to spin that as like some kind of reading that you think is authoritative or Saying like it's perfectly fine to be like convicted of something when you are reading Let's use hosea you're eating hosea and it's talking about how Israel is like a wayward bride and you are feeling like you are wayward from God The book of hosea is not about you feeling wayward right the book of hosea is about about God's relationship to God talking to Israel But if you can read yourself into it That is a that is what we was talking about when we talk about devotional reading Is that a retraction again? I'll be curious as you move into the further ones like so Let's say that's your personal devotion time you're saying it's inappropriate to then share that with a congregation or you'll be inappropriate to stand up And say that this is what the book of hosea is about the book of hosea is about like how you and me are wayward I mean I can but we but you're you're jumping some steps I can see it kind of like it would be possible for a guy to come up with a sermon It's about marriage is and how you need to pursue your wife, right?

Yeah, and that's what the book of hosea is about when it's not really yes, and that's it's where I think that's a problem so so I think we get into difficulties when we bring different kinds of reading interpreting of scripture into the wrong into wrong settings and Yeah, so I think if okay, so that's sort of that first personal devotional reading where you are Reading this and your end your goal is to is to foster some kind of thoughtful reflection on your own relationship with God That is what devotional reading is for and I think that we are you can have a tremendous amount of like Li Wei in that In personally, okay, the other one is and this is what the original episode if you go back if you are googling around you find one on I'll read in the Bible the original episode I think it's episode 98 where we talk about hermeneutics and this is so let's talk about hermeneutics for a second So if you are going to this is the art of interpreting the Bible In hermeneutics, there are there's sort of classically if you were sitting in a hermeneutics class in seminary You'd pretty much be taught like either there's like a five step method or there's a three step method They're both they're essentially the same thing. That's well stuff. Yeah, 12 step if you if you yeah if you're coming a little slosh So we'll go with the five steps and this is sort of The goal of this is to try to come up to come up with the what does the Bible say about X topic or is to come up with sort of a principle what is the what is the what is like the Bible say about X Y or Z so this is like a Hermeneutical approach to try to come up with principle statements. What is the Bible's view on?

Government what is the Bible's view on? Money or marriage or these kinds of things, right? Okay, so the way that you do this is you have these five steps first of all you You have some sort of passage The first step is very literally like what is this thing? What is this passage saying?

I probably should have picked a passage to do this as an example I didn't so like summarize the story of what's happening in this So if you think of I don't know something in the Old Testament law where it's I'll use the classic one that I think most that get taught a lot in hermeneutics classes is If an if an ox escapes its pen and gores your neighbor The ox should be put to death if this has happened more than once I'm summarizing This happens more than once the person who owns the ox should be punished either put to death or pay a fine I think that's like sort of passage somebody's given on the fences because nobody's keeping on their fences, right? Okay, so you have a passage like that the first step of interpretation is actually like saying okay What is what is this thing literally saying? Well in this one it's saying if the ox escapes and kills somebody The ox should be put to death if this is a repeatable thing or never I'm getting ahead of myself If it happens the second time the owner of the ox is gonna be punished. So first time an accident second time punished It's like laying down the basis for negligence law.

Yes, and then this is what we're moving towards the principle So then if we're gonna do the three-step method the second question is like can we turn this passage into a principle statement? And then and so ajae this is exactly what it is the principle statement would be An accident isn't a big deal once yeah, but if the accident continues to happen and could have been prevented by somebody Yeah, I know the principle we could say is the bible says you should take care of your things You should be responsible for that which you own or keep pigs instead. Yeah, we're not for Jewish Our right I don't probably don't have cleft hoofs Quite googling um I mean wait I mean what's kosher for this what hooves is kosher if it has split hooves and choose its cod It must have both kosher signs Pigs rabbit squirrels bears dogs cats camels and horses are not oh no rabbits So then basically what you're trying to come up to is you take a passage and then you're trying to sort of turn that passage into principle statements into a state If you can sort of derive this into a principle And so you you can do this with all sorts of Of any sort of passage you have in scripture you run through that process What does it say if you're doing the five-step method the middle step in between what does it say and how do we turn this into a principle? The middle step is is there any kind of cultural difference the some sort of Unknown cultural thing that we as modern people need to become aware of like we have some sort of historical Understanding of things that we need to go through so isn't that one about God would rather you be hot or cold, but since you're lukewarm plus bitch out of your mouth like that was understood by the people of the region They had little aqueducts and from one place the water always arrived cold from another place It was really hot, but there was one place where like a particular city where it would all arrive In gross and nobody liked it.

So when he's talking about the behavior of the people or church in that in Laodicea. Yeah, yeah, yes exactly So yeah, you could have yeah, it's not really like be stoked or be bummed But man, if you're just like chilling God's not happy yes, so like in the book of Revelation it talks about that you know, yeah Be hotter be a you should either be hotter be colder God will speak you out of his mouth That is something that the people in Laodicea would understand because they live in a city where there's different where there's like Tepid gross water that no one wants to drink and so Paul and sorry John in Revelation is using that to make a point And then the point is not yeah be fiery or be or be super laid back there. Hey, God, I love God Yeah, that's not what he's saying. So yes exactly sometimes there are these These cultural things that you may miss In your in going into that principle statement.

So that's that middle. I got a question for you about one of those So I've heard that taking the Lord's name in vain is not saying like oh my god like that You know like using using God as a swear, but rather doing something in God's name that he would not have you do So saying Jesus wants me to buy this personal jet. Yeah, I'm doing this in Jesus's name. Yeah, that kind of God told me we're getting married Yeah, taking God's name.

Yeah, action. Is that true? Do you know anyone? I know I mean Like google in the background as as someone who grew up in the north where swearing is less of a sin than it is in the south There's probably maybe these cultural different things I think is when you're talking about taking the Lord's name in vain that there is a there is a a flippancy that one can I have I personally still think that saying like Jesus Christ as a as a sort of an utterance of of ex as an exclamation is sort of Not appropriate conduct for a Christian I think both of those things are probably not great if you're gonna say like God told me we're getting married and And um, yeah, I don't know as in most things.

There's a bible project podcast episode that goes into this It's from a few years ago. Really? Yeah, what do they say? There's is similar to what AJ saying is that there's like a broader way of understanding that than just like the word that's being said I think their point ended up being more along the lines of like to call yourself a follower of Christ and to live in a dishonorable way That's also taking guys name and thing.

Yes. Yeah fair point So it's not just like the actual words that are falling the sounds are falling out of your mouth But it's all sorts of things. Um, so so getting back to this this principle based hermological approach You are essentially going through stories and scripts or passages and scripture and you were coming up with principal statements so um For example that one that I was talking about of putting the of the ox born your neighbor In that passage it says that if the ox has a habit of escaping and going people It says in that passage that the owner of the ox can be put should be put to death And then there's also then later on in the same passage they give a um, uh, I pathway for um, sort of financial repercussions instead of death But you can look at that passage and you can look at that and you can say here is biblical Evidence or here is at least according to this old testament passage Um using this as an example you could say that in the moral law of the Old Testament or even the moral law of the bible Death penalty has a place but you could make that as a principle. Um, and then uh, and then you also Something the question arises then what do you do when you have competing if you come up with competing principle statements?

If you can say according to this verse, uh, we can interpret this as the bible's okay with death penalty And then you go and you look at christ saying love your enemies return the other cheek And how do they do you apply that into questions about about death penalty, right? Um, that is um hard, uh, and that sort of um, that is what people are working towards when you are doing a if you are uh, doing theology if you were wanting to be a systematic theologian This is what you were doing is that you were going through all these passages and you are compiling Let's say if you wanted to do it if you wanted to do a systematic theology on the nature of The death penalty or the nature of death as a punishment for crimes according to the bible You would go and you would get any you would get all the passages all of the stories all of the examples of where people have been put to death for a crime Or there's some sort of so other descriptions of being people being put to death for crime or there are Prescriptions there are actually like statements saying put someone to death if they do x y or z And then you would go and look for all the examples where it seems like there was going to be um Descriptions of mercy where death was was necessary or prescriptions where things were actually said About people being put to death for crimes and you would want to have all of those references And then you would need to do the work of going through every single one and seeing if um, they were Um, if there was a note if they were completely contradictory or not Um, this is the business of this is the business of sort of systematic theology is to say is there a unity of principle on topics in the bible and um So is that does that make sense? Yes? Yeah, um And so the things that I tell my students are like you don't just want a cheap You don't just want cheap answers.

You don't just want to say like well, here's this one verse and it says this one thing and then that's sort of the cart blanche Proof of a proof text of some sort of principle. I'm gonna sort of like can I get tattoos? Well, it says no one exits it says yes It says it says do not you know mutilators of the flash or whatever so therefore no nose piercings or whatever, right? Um and um, and uh, so So yeah, I was telling my students that you don't want just like cheap cartoon answers You actually need to do the work yourself of going through and being so familiar with all of these stories and all these examples that you can be able to to to talk about like or to be able to have an answer for a principled biblical answer for whatever issue is rising Um, this is the yeah, this is the work of theology.

This is the work of sort of systematic theology is is like going through and saying okay What is the bible saying about? I'll give an example. So we're teaching the Old Testament class this year and we're reading in the Old Testament Um, you got who is it you got um, lamic Uh, the seventh generation after cane and lamet goes off and marries two people first example of somebody mayor having two lives This happens a lot. You've got I think esa has a number of wives Um, you've got abraham and then abraham abraham Having one wife but having a bunch about having a bunch of kids with his wife's hand servant made servants And so you need to ask yourself the question of like is this is this just describing the story of what happened or is this prescriptive?

Is this like all the bible's totally cool with like polyamory? Yeah, or polyamory like look abraham had had some concubines Um, you could very easily just sort of open up being like well abraham took his uh took his wife's handmade hagar and she gave birth to ishmael You can be that like awesome like thumbs up. This is licensed So you need to be able to have to know the difference between what is descriptive and what is prescriptive? Maybe in the ishmael or the the hagar abraham example is a little easier it gets harder with other things So it's harder to know when things are prescriptive or descriptive Um when it comes to what is the bible what is the principle?

What is the bible saying about this does this include stuff that has maybe changed over time like I don't allow women to speak in church Um, I mean so when paul's talking about that, um, yeah when paul's talking about um, uh, uh, when he's telling talking about that to the krentians Um, uh, yeah, you need to ask yourself that question like what is paul getting that is paul laying down Something prescriptive for all churches at all times or is paul talking about the specific church in korent? Um, and you know Is there something about the nature of public worship in korent that was unruly For the greeks in a way that maybe wasn't in somewhere else but then that's that, um, that is the business of yeah This is this is the work that has to be done for people who are reading and interpreting these kinds of things Um, and it's not it's not an easy business. Um, so Uh, that was the going from what it says to driving some sort of principle There's a middle step in there that if we're talking about something in the new testament Sorry, it's something something in the old testament as christians There are a number of things that the um, in the old testament that do not stand uh, any more like the ceremonial laws of the old testament Um, uh, in the the christians the freeing that we have as christians are we no longer bound by the kosher laws for example? Um, there are civil laws of the old testament that are no longer applicable to us living now Um, but the moral laws of the old testament for example, we would still be bound by about committing murder committing adultery That was you know, those things are still binding.

So there are certain things that are, um, that the old testament We no longer let we don't have a sacrificial system anymore We no longer need to kill doves and lambs on sunday or saturday, um to cut tone for our sins because of what christ has done on the cross So when we go back and we read, um, you know about the uh, you know, kapoor the day But tell me like we don't have that that is no longer binding on on on christians So there there needs to be that kind of understanding too that we there is a change that happens in this in the new testament that um, changes some of the of the commands of the old testament Um, cool. And then the last thing when you've done this is you say, okay, I've come up with the principle I've been able to come up with like sort of these principal statements from the bible And then the trick is to come up with application So then you think of examples that you have or you think of how do you apply this in your life? So if we're going to use that example of you know, take care of your stuff If I didn't if I had a chainsaw that was real I was it was not sharp It had not been oiled and the last time I was using this change saw the chain jumped and off of it And um, and I just sort of like nonchalantly kind of put the chain back onto it And AJ asked to borrow my chainsaw and I lent it to him And AJ uses the chainsaw and injures himself with my busted chainsaw Uh, and I and I was like, well, man, that sucks AJ sucks I knew it Yeah sucks to suck that you hurt yourself on this chainsaw Somebody could very legitimately say that As a christian man, I am out of bounds on what I'm at fault for what I have done Using that same passage about if your ox scores your neighbor that you were at fault And you knew about it like your your your ox had a habit of jumping the chain Yeah, maybe you had maybe you had given to somebody else and they got hurt using chainsaw If this had never happened if my chainsaw was perfect all the time and I took care of it And it just so happened that one time you dinked a rock and it hit like the chain went in your leg Yep stuff happens stuff happens But if if there is a like morally if I know that this chainsaw is uh, uh, is problematic That is a uh, you know, sort of a text in the bible that should That somebody that Thomas can very easily say like Graham you are at fault for this Not just because of the laws of the united states or not just because um Like the emotions that you have towards your injured friend should compel you But you could say that you are you know, if you are somebody who says that scripture is binding in your life This is an example of you being out of you ignoring it To your sort of souls peril and Thomas would be right if he confronted me with that If as I was reading, you know, uh, dudiranam, you know, it's probably in Leviticus or numbers or whatever During my devotional life if I read that passage and my heart was convicted because I was like, oh man I just age I heard him sell with my chainsaw like, you know, that I should be convicted of that that is then the bible sort of The inter that is a right interpretation of that that is bringing to bear on my action, right? It's not when moses wrote that he did not have grand dalston in 2023 in mind He wrote it for a nomadic desert people, um to so that they could live with one another in harmony um but it the the the truthness of that statement and the The moral rightness of that system is still binding on People who call in the name who people of the book people who say that the bible is binding in their hearts today So if I do that for aj and aj hurts himself, I am at fault and the bible says so Um cool.

So those are the five steps can you reveal? So it was what does this passage literally say like can you just sort of rephrase it and so get all the details say literal The literal um and then the middle step is is is there anything culturally that we don't understand that they would have understood that would help Under the help us to understand so like the lay of this context put it in context Is it written for an audience and is using things that they would be knowledgeable about still number two? This is that's number two. That's what you actually say put it in context Um, is there any difference between us and the original listeners?

Number three, can you turn what is said and then using the context if you needed any um into a principal Can you make it into a principal statement? So Ox escapes and goes your neighbor principal take care of your things. There's your principal statement Um, and then if this is in the old testament is there something about the new testament that changes this principle Is there something about the revelation that we have in christ that changes this okay in this instance There wouldn't be because it's still uh, this is this is we're talking about sort of a moral thing A moral law, I may not give you an ox but if I give you my chainsaw if um If you were getting mad at me as a christian aj for eating lobster I could be like well, we're not bound by the kosher laws anymore and you'd be like it is you know, you were being shellfish Um, and uh, sorry And then the last one is application is then being able to sort of take those principles and apply them in context that we find ourselves And this is going to sort of bring us to the third way of interpreting the bible There's really quite hand in hand and so far we've had way number one Which is personal to which is sort of personal devotion and this is where you have a lot more sort of leeway on on uh, like that context and those principles Like, but shouldn't you know that stuff if you're doing personally, let me let me um, okay, um, maybe it's just you know Let me give you an example of one that I've been thinking of recently So theologically, I know that we cannot earn our salvation through works Right like that's a theological principle that christians have that the atoning blood of christ is that which covers covers the um, uh, Our sins there's nothing that we can do that will sort of like earn us into heaven um, but there can be um, um, um, um There can be times where you were reading the bible and you can be convicted of your own lack of striving for righteousness Um, and so I could be reading a passage where I try to give an example where um, um, uh, I know you could be reading about the faithfulness of Abraham and knowing that that is accounted to him as faith That is accounted to him as righteous or you could be reading as a thing where it says enoch walked with the lord And uh, and he was a righteous man. So like in your mind you can know that um, um, um, Like any sort of saving of enoch or saving of Abraham somehow christ's blood rectractively like Theologically bales them out but you can in your own personal life being like I need to be of I need to I know I can't earn my salvation, but I should I should act I should act a little bit more like I should be You know what i'm saying like that is not a correct theological position Maybe you want to be a better man, but you can sort of read it and be like I know I can't earn my salvation through works But I kind of feel like I should be acting a little more righteous, uh, and I should be I know I can't but I should be trying to yeah Yeah, yeah You would not stand up in front of a group of people and say like You need you need to pretend you need to act as if you can earn your salvation by you know You should stop doing wicked things, um, but you can have that thought in your own mind while you were Convicted of reading scripture.

Does this make sense? Yeah, jose Louise. I should probably do better than doing maybe this maybe that's a bad example That's kind of what I'm getting at like or if you're doing that lekdeo divina where you are putting yourself in the story And where or you're putting yourself in some sort of healing and christ says pick up your mat and walk And in your own personal devotion actually christ is saying that to you He's not saying it to the cripple in your mind. He's actually looking at you and saying pick up your mat and walk, right?

um, that can be a profound thing for the individual, but it would be inappropriate if That was the conclusion that if that would be inappropriate if you said this is what the bible is saying Like this is the principle of that passage the principle is that I am I am the person who god is healing It's not it's he's healing the leper, but in your but in your sort of personal devotional life you can be the leper Does this this makes sense? Um, okay And then the last one that we're that is then um, how then do you use all of these principles of the bible? So if you were a biblically literate person that means you were somebody that has a handle on all of these biblical principles and the right interpretation of them through getting these principles through, you know, the reading of the stories understand the context and um, and um, and coming up with with principles based on it so if you have that kind of Knowledge that repository of principles. Um, then the other way of reading the bible is the exegetical way This is where the bible is then being used to preach to people is being and one way you can think about this is using scripture to um, either like correct faults in a group of people or to speak into the world that Or just speaking to something culturally that is happening right now, right?

Um, so um, trying to give an example Well, I guess the corny one would be when the when the pastor decides that they are going to do a sermon series on the book of niyamaiah When they are going to do a like church building project, right? Like you need to raise some money because you need to fix the you need to fix the sanctuary or whatever And so you were going to spend time as a congregation like going through and reading niyamaiah because that's a book where they spent time rebuilding the temple, right? um, that is uh, that is uh, um The pastor or the person or whoever is preaching or even if you were going through that as your small group bible devotions in your church The way that you are reading and interacting with the bible, um, in that sense, it's kind of it's not completely different than A hernidic where you're trying to spin out biblical principles, but you're sort of more applying that to a present Issue or a present reality and this is and this is uh, the other side of theology So systematic theology is trying to come up with all of those biblical principles But then you can have the all you have those biblical principles as um, Responses or as like, um, figuring out what to do with other sort of cultural forces that you have in the world. So, um Uh, I know, um, trying to give an example.

It's not controversial Um Uh, so in the in the later 19th century earlier 20th century a lot of theologians really needed to think about what does the bible say about uh, economic systems because now all of a sudden we would have clashes of different kinds of economic systems with the rise of Marxism and sort of a much more robust capitalism, um, and Um, and the sort of industrial revolution that is really separating men from their labor in a new way This technology has changed a lot of the way that human beings are living and so then what is going to be the biblical? How do we build a theology around this and? um This is a hard thing to do. They're sort of like, uh, I'm gonna say this um There's a way where the principles of the bible are used to interpret the world around it And in those other ways where like the philosophies of the world end up getting superimposed on the language of the bible Um, and I think that that second path is misguided is that if you were going to use if you're gonna so like we can even use um, um, sort of uh, marxist economic theory or even just sort of marxist critical theory There is a branch of theology where that school of thought then has gotten superimposed onto the language of the bible and you get something very different um, and it's called liberation theology.

So liberation theology is a branch of um, um, It's an interpretation it's it's yeah, it's interpretation of scripture that is influenced by by by marx Uh, and we've talked about marxist podcast before maybe did a great episode on on doing that with history Right. I know what you remember what was that? I can't remember a history of private life Yeah, it was uh, that that episode's one where we did this whole review of this of this chapter of this book And i'm just describing all the stuff and then like the kicker at the end is like, haha This is critical theory and then we end up having this big long um in between afterwards of like The point of that episode was you know, some of these tools can be helpful But it's like kind of a you just noticed that you get the same themes over and over again Because you come in with this interpretive framework and then like lo and behold the Romans fit this interpretive framework perfectly Yeah, like that's kind of the weakness. Yes.

So um, I guess uh, The thing we're kind of building up towards this is that um, the bible should but the bible and sort of principle based hermeneutical approach Should be something that is like, um, a light that is shed on certain cultural things things that are happening culturally We can and we can take the opposite spectrum of of like a critical theory coin and we can talk about like, um, I don't know, let's say if you had a nation that decided that they were the same thing as like is israel So when you read the bible, um, so when canadians read the bible and they said that god is going to bless The nation of israel canadians were like that's us boys Um, and they were going to build up some sort of like national id or ethnic identity about being god's chosen people on earth And then they were going to use the story of the old testament to like plan their policies around like that has happened in history Uh, and that is that is that is where, um, some other kind of Ideology is then using the language of the bible as as like a It's like a proper as like a like a delivery device Whereas the other way whereas, um, the other way is how it's supposed to be the bible is supposed to be the thing that can Um, then sort of shed its light on the eye on the sort of the systems or the ideology of the world So it is quite legitimate to say okay, we've got you know in the early 20th century We've got all these questions about um, who is man in relation to his work and what is the relationship between man and money and investment and work and labor and class We didn't think about this in the middle ages and so middle age theologians didn't really talk about this But now that it's happening in our world, then we need to say okay, what does the bible say about the relationship about these kinds of things? Well, let's go through the bible and look at the principles that we can be derived from um, uh, These are these issues that we're looking at that's the correct way to do it The incorrect way to do it is to say like, ah every time the bible mentions the word sin what they really mean is you know, the the bourgeois Uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, sort of keeping the proletariat down and that's the sin of the world is that we have this sort of like Um, when when yes or when we talk about the line of ham What we really mean is the bourgeois and we talk about the line of sham what we really mean is the proletariat And they're always going to be a war and the Canaanites are always going to be the overbearing and god is going to liberate Liberate it from the Canaanites through social revolution, right like when you start doing that You're you're taking the story and the language of the bible and you're using it as just a delivery device for some kind of other ideology And that the history has happened Um a lot in sort of the history of of of scripture in the world and it's not just Marxism It's happened with American naturalism with american nationalism some sort of sense that I was being tongue She I didn't want to sort of call it up too much but there is kind of like a burgeoning and growing America there's always been this little like america is god's country and so I mean well George bush, uh, junior when he was W bush when he was president america is the shining light on the hill That's an interpretation of when christ is talking about his people being uh being the city that should not be hidden Was jesus saying that it was america, you know, like well that's an interpretation that people are having then we didn't seem like we're forgetting about the vatican Uh, no, we're really god's country. It is Um, i'm just saying how are we claiming god's country when we've got the vatican? Didn't we get a message from people saying that like we are a lot where we i need no saying that we're very catholic We're catholic colleges Catholic light Right, so now let's take that as an example that america is is the shining light on a hill While the passage is being referenced to is what christ is talking to his disciples christ is saying that and so Do we see it so then is god's people like a nation in a specific period of history or is it the church those who call in the name of christ Are those one of the same?

These are these are hard things to piece actually i don't think it's that hard i think the first one is wrong Um, but yes, they're ethnic nationalism use our own forget about like the whole midwest the pre flat I don't know if we claim the hill if we don't really use our hills and then i'm going to hills switzerland i can believe it more could be right um The history of uh race-based slavery has used passages about how when no is kid saw him naked and made fun of him No is said that you are cursed it is going to be you ham your kids are going to be servants to all People took that interpret that saying well because a lot of hams descendants were in africa Africans are going to be the servants that are of people and then people took that to mean that this is this is now going to be Hey, look, there's biblical justification for there's biblical justification for race-based slavery on people from africa Well that is taking uh, you know a current ideology and using the bible as like a delivery vehicle for it Whereas the other way around is like, um, well, uh, the history of the end of slavery is also the history of Christians looking at the scripture and realizing that this is a wrong practice you've got um was the bushman Um, will William will be forced? Um, you have you have uh during the uh, uh, the whole movement about uh, uh, uh, um, The abolitionist movement you have, you know, people preaching about fighting the book of finelimian and an sms and you know, you say you have I would argue the right Permanutical principle based interpretation of scripture to come to the conclusion that the enslavement of a person is wrong And then you have the opposite theology you have the super imposing theology that's using languages of using words of the bible To actually support something else and using the bible as a delivery vehicle Uh, and then you have sort of this, uh, you have something that christian should look at and say is quite abhorrent So that's kind of my kind of the thing that i was trying to get at is that just because someone says the bible says x about y Doesn't mean that a christian even if it's a pastor, you know, somebody from the pulpit Doesn't mean that somebody should be like, well, yes, this is the bible says this about something that you need to be going through that um that uh That that sort of theological process to be to really say like is this the principle that scripture is saying because you can you know You can twist it into some pretty nasty things. Um, you can do it, you know The bible can be sort of a delivery vehicle for sort of critical theory Marxism for some sort of ethnocentric nationalism for Other examples of slavery women other examples. I mean, um, uh, Everything just that big ones.

Um, so then what does this have to do with exegesis? So that means that people who are preaching scripture if they're wanting to use the bible to talk about current issues Or if they if people see like Problems in the world and they are wanting to correct those problems by means of the bible You're in a pretty dangerous position because if you are going to because, um, let's say you wanted to, um, you were concerned about I don't know injustice and poverty The bible says a lot about injustice and poverty, um, but there are two flavors of of preaching about injustice and poverty and um, um, and, uh, uh, uh, One would be that sort of that principle based what does the bible say about orphans and widows and justice and the other one is, uh, is, um, Sort of using the language of the bible as kind of like a delivery vehicle for some other ideology Who the rest of that ideology is may is going to be in conflict with other biblical principles. That's kind of So, okay, so take your wittles and orphans comment. Okay, so you got to take care of the widows and orphans like that's the point there You're saying that because then the question is okay.

How do we do that? And like, you know, we need government structures to care for these people versus private Donations should like that distinction there is not addressed by scripture Like is that what you're saying? Um, to latch onto one implementation prematurely is to kind of skip over what the bible says about other stuff? Um, let me think, um, potentially I guess, um, That was a sort of a different train of thought than I was going at.

Sorry, because I thought because like in terms of principle You would expect broad agreement among Christians of like we should take care of this group of people But then is that kind of as far as you can take things? Then we as Christians to support our like social institutions that we have set up in America to take care of people versus we should take up an offering correction today Yeah, and I think um Then that raises the next question. Okay, then what is our relationship as the church to a government and its institutions? So should we really be should we be directing all of our attention to um, sort of supporting the like if we live in a Country that's got like social socialized welfare for the poor then is that our Christian responsibility to be Upholding and under and holding up those institutions is that what the church is that how we interpret taking care of widows and orphans because america's got a social welfare program We as Christians should be doing everything we can to support that program voting for that program I'm putting more money into our taxes for that program or whatever or do we so that or do we not do we do that in a low in our sort of localized body with our church?

Well now you would have to say okay, we've got a new issue that we need to know what the what the biblical principle is on that What is the principle of I guess in that instance we would be looking at? Subsidiaries like is our widows and orphans something that should be taken care of in a local setting Municipal setting federal setting does the Bible have any sort of principle about the propriety of those subsidiaries, right? Does that make sense? Yes, um, there's might be more in between I'm curious if you would think that kind of there should be then kind of the one Christian position Is there one position on yeah, but thank you right?

Of which they're no yeah, so again that might be in between but um, would be curious what you think like because then you get to a point Like people who disagree with you are like not Christian. You know, I mean Non-Christian positions, which there are many denominations. There are many groups within christianity with me to disagree Um, I mean, I mean it all comes down to it all comes down to the um, like what let's let's go let's look at the math Let's go through the how are you deriving that conclusion on what you're supporting when you're not supporting? Um, is that just something that you're doing because like?

Because you're living in the Netherlands and this is how dust people react live or is it actually like coming from biblical conviction? Um, I know those things don't have to be exclusive, um, but I think it's just worth knowing Am I doing x y or z because this is culturally the way things are done in this country? Or am I doing this because it's uh, this is coming from a place of biblical conviction I guess I'm kind of me personally I'm kind of tuned into this because I live in a place that I'm not from and so Um, and there's just things in america that are done very differently than in canada when it comes to social welfare programs and these kinds of things Like it kind of blows my mind the amount of money that people give to charity in america. Yeah, yeah, it's an astronaut.

It's crazy It's just it's not a thing. It's just it's like when I live in the Netherlands. It's less of a thing when I lived in canada It's a little bit more than the Netherlands, but there's just the like well We paid 30 taxes like should that cover it? Right, um, you know, and those are just sort of culturally different things is one more christian than the other That's a good question.

That would be you have to go and and like I said do the math sort of Is this is this just cultural expressions? Different ways that groups of people have decided to tackle problems or is there one that is um More bible than than another is interesting. Um I was going to get into talking about allegories, but I think we've sort of moved off to a different topic so we won't get into that But just kind of to summarize like as christians who are um people of a book people have a text like the no uh the interpretation of that text and then and then it's authority that it has in our lives Is is a hard thing. This is not an easy thing, but making it easy Creates lots of more problems.

Like if you cartoonify and simplify it, um, you can get into you can get into whole host of issues one of the reasons why I think and how an ideology can kind of like take the language of the bible and then um You end up like eating that ideology thinking you're eating the bible is quite easy to have happen to people is because it is more of a cartoon version than the business of the complicated work of biblical interpretation like I think it's a lot easier to say to fall into some sort of like Um when the bible talks about israel what they really mean is texas and I as a texan and god's chosen people like that's such an easy thing to do They tell me it's easier not to think hard than it is Is that what you're saying? I am. It's easier to be lazy. Yeah, and I'm not sure I buy it and my personal fear is that um in an age of hot takes and internet and and decreasing biblical literacy, I think there is a lot more of like intellectual damage that is going to happen By the bible being used by individuals Or just by or even just by ideologies of people without realizing it and then you're gonna get into this whole mass confusion thing And I think some I think the ones we've been alluding to are are There I think the christian nationalism one is a problem.

I think um, that that that cultural Marxist liberation theology and that's one That's like that's not a new one like that's rattlingers whole deal like carne rosephobe like that's that's coming back from the 70s That's been around for a long time and there's probably other ones we can think of um um, um, so it's so then what if for the well-meaning christian for the for the person who like Doesn't want to be bamboozled by bible language. Um, but really wants to like authentically Um live a life that is formed by the conviction of god's word There's no substitute for like the in-depth knowledge of it and in the mix and yeah And I'm not saying that you need to go and keep it a giant chart list of all of the principal statements that you can about certain topics It's not gonna hurt Um, what else helps other people doing this like you can act and look up commentaries and concordances and there are people whose job it is to look up all Of these things and that's what we're doing for you. Yeah, so many So last little thing with me well and with this is then hold on so far. I was wondering where we've been so the first ways of Votional.

Yeah, the second way is true exit. Jesus with your five steps for community. Yeah, five steps Which is what is it literally saying put in the context? Percoming principal deriving principle there's a new testament shop the principal around for the rest of the yeah like Test with the rest of the bible.

Yeah, and then are you laughing at it? Sorry, I'm trying to Number five is how would you apply it? So then if you have this principle and you know that then how can you be able to apply this principle in the wild? Okay, see examples and the third the third way is it's actually proof texting is no with the third way is no I was talking about then another the other relationship that we have is The one from the pulpit so the relation so if I hear in God's word preached and when a pastor or a priest is preaching the bible they are off they are either doing the hermudic thing or They are taking a monster to go to the end or they're trying to or they're trying to maybe right or wrong in the congregation Which is which is a good thing pastor should be doing this But if you are going to be delivering a word to people if you're going to be saying like this is what the bible tells us to do What x y or z you are in um you have like well the millstone and the child uh passage should be at the forefront of your mind because there is um lots of easy cartoon ways to use the bible to Actually package different kinds of ideologies and okay, I think I mean Coming into into polity like this happens during the fourth of july services this happens during election cycles this happens during you know It does not happen during election cycles right so this is um anyway So what about the fourth way reading it like a book?

Did you have anything to say about the narrative style? Not necessarily I mean I didn't have anything planned to say about that. Okay, you can um where should I start but um I'm getting I'm getting No, actually one way you could do is you could say like all right Let's um let's compile a list of biblical metaphors and like see other metaphors that repeat themselves over and over or the structures that repeat themselves over and over and over like creation Fall redemption these kinds of you mean like that question we just had in our ama and didn't answer very well correct. Yeah, okay, yeah Um we got there The way that this can sort of play out practically in your life is I'm always very sensitive to the way that churches deliver sermons that the preacher's delivered I there was a while where I went to a church where it was clear that the preacher was delivering his sermons purely from his own devotional life and Over time the church ended up becoming wrapped up in the persona and character of the pastor That's a problem.

In fact the whole church fell apart I wasn't the same thing and it was because the the sort of the fluctuations of the the devotional life of the pastor ended up being the flavor of church And that only has a right that only has right um there and then there that you could um And then so then the other way is that that preaching often happens is you have um sermons that are going to be on topics I'm going to pick a topic like marriage or like fasting and we're going to talk about that topic or the other preaching is for the next eight weeks We're going to be doing um the entire book of first Corinthians and that's the preaching um and people who are pastoring or people who are Going to be leading bible studies or doing groups or who are in some sort of like um Role where they are delivering other sermons or or thoughts using the bible teaching Need to need to sort of say am I going to be someone who's going to be more topical or might be someone who is more um sort of book preaching Personally, I think the book preaching is a lot more fruitful. Um, but anyway, that's a whole other maybe we can talk more about that in the in-between but hopefully by the end this we sort of realize like um Faithful Christianity also involves like work Like um And this is why living this is why going to church and being in community is so important because it can oftentimes seem so uh overwhelming if it's just you Um, I got yeah, that's that's that's sort of the um if we're talking about biblical interpretation Yeah, you're you're church may have been a pastor's sort of devotional life sort of leaking out of the congregation I feel like I'm gonna search went to a church that did the modern sensibility put that framework on the scripture and it ended up It's weird because when that happens you sort of get a specific flavor and the flavor of this church was don't judge anybody and also our lives are terrible Um, so it was a lot of preaching on how to deal with sorrow and how to deal with hardship and loss and Like that that's those are important things, but it eclipsed all of almost all of the types of preaching. Yep, which was tough. Uh, yes Yep, well, thank you all for listening.

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