The Joe Wilgen experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day I was like, there's only one way to do this, I was not drunk for a while So I took like eight months off and then I had like a margarita dinner once I said what is this? And then I had a glass of wine here and there I was wondering how that was gonna hold up. Yeah, but you're not I know that you're not captured by it No, no, neither of mine, but our religious observance requires it. You require abstinence or drinking No, we drink.
What when do you have to drink? Shabbat every come for any Friday. How much did you drink one Shabbat? Probably have two and a half glasses of wine.
Is there like a number that you're supposed to hit? No, otherwise you're not a bad boy. Well that's poor. What does it?
We should get into poor room. We're getting into it. Do we need glasses? You want to have a drink?
Usually I you want to go a while so we usually do that at the end. Well, let's get some ice and some glau- Are we rolling already? Okay. We should get some- tell Jeff to get us some ice and some glasses and a bottle of buffalo.
With anything. Buffalo, Troyce. Do you want to wait until I get back to start? We either have started or we started.
We started. Fuck it. We started. Let's just roll.
We'll get Jeff to do it. What's that? Are we rolling still? Are we doing headphones?
We can? Headphones and don't have phones? We can go fuck. We mix it up.
Are you more comfortable? You get a nice head of hair. For me, it doesn't matter. I feel bad when people work on their hair real good.
Especially ladies and they get it all nice and they have to fucking smush it with this thing. Okay, if you ever have that kind of consideration for me, I'm going to be very disappointed. I thought we were closer. Some people worry about that.
I worry about the gray. The gray? Yeah. You're pretty dark for your age.
How old do you know? 60. You're fucking dark ass hair for your age. If I had hair and grew out like my side hair.
It's mostly gray now. Yeah. I should have hit some gray hair in my eyebrows a little bit. What's up?
I should have thought ahead like you did. What? Shaved it? Yeah.
Shaved it when it wasn't gray. It's just normal. It's very clear if I shave it now. I think you can avoid gray hair with proper supplementation.
At least that is the thought today with enough zinc and copper. And that somehow I know that that's involved in the diet. I'm talking about my answer. I don't know that much about what causes your hair to go gray.
This is Austin Tapp. This is Buffalo Trace. Hold it in America. Really?
Yeah. This is a distillery from 1773 I believe they started. Wow. That map is like that Chinese sounding beer.
Yoon-ling or something. I'm not sure. Buffalo Trace is like, you buy is there? They're really old.
Beer, really old. They have an old beer. Yoon-ling. Is it old as fuck?
Jamie knows everything. I feel a lot. You know people. 1829.
You see? People say I have this AI. I'm using cloud using JT-GPT. Jamie.
Yeah. He's way better than AI because he's kind of psychic. You're a little psychic. A little bit.
I mean I've listened to you talk a lot. My theory is that he also looks ahead. He knows sort of where you're likely to head. So he's got it ready.
Oh 100%. He knows how my goofy brain works. Yeah. For sure.
Good to see you. Hello Joe. How was your... What was it exactly?
How would you describe it? A speech? I gave a talk on dark energy to the Carch group at the UTEX, UTEXAS Austin Physics. This is one I wanted to ask you about.
Mitchio Kaku has been saying that he believes that dark energy is possibly something leaking in from another dimension. Is that? Look at that face. Look at that face.
You can go on. You can have a little side eye. Well, let's see what he says. Jamie, if you can find that please.
I think he said it was gravity leaking. Hands from different colonies and put them together as a kid just to see what happens. Did I? No, I don't know that.
I just watched him fight. Oh yeah. Oh he fucking psycho. No, I never did any of that.
You were saying about me, Joe. Yeah. I just didn't even read it. I just saw and went, oh Jesus.
I got to talk to Eric about this. Mitchio, she does dark matter. Isn't matter at all. It's gravity leaking in from a parallel dimension.
And this guy won't do mushrooms. Isn't that wild? What do you think about that? You remember when I was here and I said, get Mitchio Kaku in here with me.
Yeah. What is it? What is it? What clearly is a brilliant guy?
He is and was a brilliant guy. He's decided to do something else. And to be entirely honest, I don't love going after other named people. In general, my shtick is that I go hard after institutions.
I'm a huge institutional supporter and there were some nightmares in the current world. Individuals I don't like beefing with. I watch all of the energy, the beauty of life lost to beefing with people. Mitchio Kaku is doing a tremendous amount of damage to theoretical physics.
How so? Theoretical physics is in my estimation the most beautiful, most powerful, most economically potent thing you can do with your life. And we are the best. The United States is in my opinion the greatest nation in the history of the earth with theoretical physics.
Because we are cowboys, we are irreverent. We are the people who invented the atomic and hydrogen bombs, the semiconductor. This is what we do. And we've lost the ability to do it at a level that I cannot believe happened during my watch, my lifetime.
So from 1984 to the present, those 42 years have been the greatest intellectual implosion I think that I know of. Where people just got dumber. And what do you think is the cause of this? I'm going to distract this.
Quantum gravity. In 1984 there was a result and it's called the Green Schwartz Anomaly Cancellation. And the guy that I've talked to you about before in UFO context, the guy who is Lewis Witten's son, Lewis Witten. Happy birthday, turn 105.
It was the anti-gravity guy from the 50s. His son Edward Witten decided that the 1984 Green Schwartz Anomaly Cancellation meant that we should all, all the smartest people, should pile into one narrow subspecialty. And that that was the future. Because it was so much smarter than all of us.
People listened. And I didn't. And Micho Cacu is part of his wave. Almost all of the people that you've traditionally had on in physics have some connection to this.
So you've had on, I don't know, probably Sean Carroll, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Brian Green. Nobody wanted to say what was happening, which is that we were being unraveled and destroyed. Our ability to be the world's greatest theoretical physicist was being eroded year by year for 42 years. And specifically the pursuit of string theory?
It's not string theory itself. It's the problem. Spring theory is harmless. It's just a bunch of equations, a bunch of ideas, and it's beautiful mathematics in many places.
So that's not an issue. The issue is the exclusion of everything else. This goes into the name Tojut or the only game in town, T.O.G.I.T. And it's this idea that only we, the enlightened, can do theoretical physics and the rest of you are just doing finger exercises and you're too stupid to know it.
So specifically, what is isolationist about string theory? Like what is it about this one particular theory that all this thought has been pushed into that? This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Hockey season's here and Uber Eats is delivering game day deals on favorites like wings, pizza, fries, and snacks.
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There's no way that we can have a discussion about that directly. If I could ask Jamie, could I impose upon you to call up on YouTube wheel of fortune and then use, I've got a good feeling about this. I can explain it to you. We all fortune.
We've got a good feeling about this. I've got a good feeling about this. Is that an episode? It'll be over briefly.
It's very, very quick. It's about a minute and a half or something. The key point is it's a tight analogy for the problem faced in physics that anyone can understand. People think I try to make things complicated.
I really try to make them understandable. But what I do is I talk about things I don't know that you've ever had anyone talk about UV completeness on the JoeRogan. I don't believe so. Yeah.
You're not going to be able to hear it unless you have headphones on. I know it like the back of my hand. We all of fortune. We need a phrase this time.
It's got to go into this puzzle and it is a pie. Gladly. What do we get here? 500.
R. You think there'd be an R somewhere? Oh, man. What do you call it?
One L. What's that? Can I solve? Okay.
It is a prize puzzle. Yeah. I've got a good feeling about this. That's right.
That's insane. That lady's a wizard. That lady is what I want to do with my life. That is what great physics looks like.
It's totally irresponsible. And you know, Pat's age I was trying to ask her, like, how do you do that? And she says, well, I've got a good feeling about this. And then the funny part about it is you can figure it out.
If you go back, Jamie, can you show the board right there? Yeah. So clearly that apostrophe is a huge clue. So the idea is that if you read that property is that isle, is it isle?
Is it isle? Right? And then there's no R. So think about all of those blank squares as orders of magnitude that you are away from the energies that would allow you to do experiments that would explain physics.
And think about the apostrophe, the L, and that pattern as well as the fact that there's no R as the standard model of physics. So right now what you have is a debate about whether or not we should buy more and more letters with higher and higher energy. Or, like, should we build bigger accelerators and spend more treasure trying to collide particles? Or should we just Caitlin our way out of this?
So Caitlin Burke is my model of what I think we're supposed to be doing. So an exceptional mind with an ability to see or propose things that other people aren't seeing. How, I guarantee you that if we studied this, if we spent a month with the world's smartest people on this puzzle, we'd learn that there are certain things that were present, that, you know, the frequency of certain, the fact that there's a single letter there that almost certainly is. Or A, she took a tiny number of clues.
But here's the really important thing. Jamie, can we show the filled-in puzzle? So you'll notice that the word this could be changed to that because the only letter that's been excluded is an R. So that is what the issue of unique UV completion is.
In other words, a unique UV completion would say there's only one phrase that fits there. She guessed she couldn't have known it isn't I've got a good feeling about that or I've got a nice feeling about this or that. So it's actually not or I'll get a good feeling about this, but all of those were much less probable because they're just not as natural. So this is a combination of science, guesswork, and raw courage.
Like the most marvelous thing about that exchange is she says, can I solve? And there's like, he's not even sure he's hearing her properly. And then finally he says, okay, that's gatekeeping. Can I put this article on the archive?
Can I give a seminar in your department? I want to solve the puzzle. And a lot of what we're arguing about is that the string theorists are the only ones who have the right to try to solve the puzzle at the moment. So imagine that somehow there's a rule that only Rick, poor Rick, who guesses that there's an R.
Imagine that he's the only one allowed to solve the puzzle and she asks, may I solve the puzzle? No, no, you can't. That's pseudoscience. You're a charlotte.
That's, you know, that is crank physics. So that's what the problem that we're facing is that we've got one group that got control of the gatekeeping, who is very good at mathematics, extremely bad at physics. And they've redefined what physics is and what good science is, where they're the only ones who are guessing the puzzle. They can't guess the puzzle.
And everyone else is like, here's a crazy story from yesterday. I wasn't allowed to say that I gave a talk in the physics department, even though any normal person would say that that happened. And I wasn't allowed to do that when I visited a physics institution in Canada. I wasn't allowed to say that I was visiting for a week.
Nor was I allowed to say that I gave a seminar that lasted nine hours. But you just did. Yeah. Are you a lawbreaker?
I'm breaking the rules now because I've now I've had it. I agreed to not do this. And I'm with these missing scientists. I've changed my mind.
I'm not going to deal with these people anymore. And whatever is going on with science and the suppression of different ideas is terrifying. Right now we have a situation. I give a talk at the University of Chicago.
There's no record of it. Who's asking you to do these talks and who's asking you to not give a record? You don't have to name names? Yeah.
Particular people, in general, the funny part is that the people who ask me to give talks in the physics departments are the most courageous person in each department. So the problem is that the person that you end up feeling resentful towards, how dare you tell me that I can't give this talk in this department officially? Is the person who's arranging for your stay and is arranging for the room? And they are under the most pressure from the institutions.
So the institution is forcing them to say you're allowed to give the talk, but you're not allowed to talk about it on social media and not allowed to advertise it. You're doing it. You're not allowed to say that you're doing it. So in this case, in the case of you Texas physics department, I was allowed to say I'm speaking in the Carch Group seminar.
It's like a condom to make sure that the physics department doesn't get pregnant. What is that really bizarre because University of Austin, Texas was supposed to be a university that fixed all the bullshit that was wrong with other universities? So much more insane than that. This was the home of Stephen Weinberg, who moved from Harvard to Texas because the oil money was used to buy brains.
So basically, Texas raided Harvard for people like John Tate and the math department. Stephen Weinberg, who was probably the greatest living theorist. And that was the continuation of the Bryce DuWitt group from North Carolina Chapel Hill that was set up to do anti-gravity by Agnew Bainson. So you're right next to an amazing physics department with a crazy history that in fact touched anti-gravity.
This is one of the tiny number of places that has a real legacy in that department. And I was speaking there on gravity, on dark energy. And look, I've been lying my whole life about my relationship with the physics world because of this pressure. They can't listen to me if I say I'm a physicist, so I say I'm an entertainer.
But people say, well, why would you do that? Why would you say that you're an entertainer when you obviously are conversant in all this stuff? And the answer is I don't want to die. I don't want to lose my ability to enter a physics department.
So I take on this completely wrong persona. And I have the emails. You're not giving a talk. You're having conversations in room 5308.
It literally says you're not giving a talk. I could read what it is that they write to me. What is the benefit of this formal designation or this formal designation of the way you're talking? So when I was at a physics institute in Canada, I was told, we're worried that you're going to use it to legitimize yourself.
It's like, I'm going to do that. Of course I'm going to. I have a PhD from Harvard, you stupid. I mean, like, you guys imagine I'm a podcast guest?
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Just a regular dude with some wacky ideas. Right. And so the idea is I have to play that character as opposed to legitimizing yourself as a very bizarre phrase. Tell me about that.
Because it's assuming that you're not legitimate. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't think you're understanding this. But no, I am understanding it.
But from their perspective, saying that you're going to use it to legitimize yourself in your ideas is a really crazy way to phrase it. Because like you're acting from the assumption that you're not legitimate. So that's there. You remember when like, I think Reagan thought, I forget who it was.
Reagan thought there were recallable missiles. Well, you could turn around. Right. Sorry we changed our mind.
So like a bass jumper. That's also a suicide jumper. On set. That way.
And he's like, I fucked this. No, I like these people who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. They learned like I love life. Yes.
Most of them. They're reborn. So what I would say is the problem is I am. This is not a boast.
As you know, I don't usually put my credential first. I'm probably the most blue chip defector from the institutions. Mutinier. Let's call it that.
I have a I have essentially perfect credentials. And that's the problem. So it's not a question about you're going to legitimize. I already legitimized myself by Harvard PhD MIT postdoc NSF postdoc.
Oh, in our top in the country Sloan Foundation grantee. I've been in math physics economics departments. I'm so bulletproof. So that's the problem.
That's the problem. That's the problem. It's not that you're a cooke. That's what I was trying to say.
You didn't understand. No, I do understand. I don't understand why they want to do that. That's what's bizarre narrative.
Okay. I am the greatest danger to the narrative. I'm the most followed mathematician in the United States. Maybe the world, Hanafry, maybe above it.
That danger to the narrative is the problem. Well, specifically for people who don't know what we're talking about, what is to make this a standalone show, the people that not wear your work. What is it about you and your ideas that they are so hesitant to platform or legitimize or why you're such a danger? Okay.
So in 2001, I said mortgage-backed securities were a great danger to the world. I had one of the first published papers on the danger of the pricing of the liquid securities. I went on Chris Williamson's show and he asked me who's going to win Biden or Trump. I said, you don't even know whether Biden's going to make it to November.
I said that the people represented the Democratic Party reached out to me and said, stop talking about Biden's dementia. You need your affirmation that you're seeing something real. We put in three people as a committee to replace the president. I said, I'm supposed to feel good about that.
They said, well, they told you. They put in three people. They put in a committee of three people. And if you knew who those people were, you'd be pleased to punch the shut up.
That's what they said. Yeah. Correct. You would be really happy.
So shut up. They didn't even tell you the people were? I think that they did. And I've conveniently forgot them.
One of them might have been the chief of staff. Wow. But I say this. And I'm not trying to...
I keep lots of secrets that people ask me to keep, that I should keep. Things that I'm having to do with national security, for example. But these people are incompetent. And they're a danger to us.
And right now, the string theory narrative is a complete danger. It's not string theory. This is a problem. It's the only game in town.
And so, you know, there was a... Look, people are willing to spend their entire credibility just to make me go away. Could you briefly describe, like, what is the... So there's not a problem with string theory or a string theory not complete?
Or a string theory read... Has it reaped actual results? Mathematically, it's reaped results. And string theorists have occasionally done really great work in a subject called quantum field theory.
But quantum field theory isn't about the quantum field theory of the world. Quantum field theory is like calculus. It's some thing that's very useful. It grew up in physics.
But we've now found out that quantum field theory has to do with pure problems in mathematics. They have nothing to do with physics. And what they haven't done is they haven't dealt with the physical world. So if you take physics, why do we care about physics so much more than really almost any other aspect of the sciences other than biology?
I had to give a talk at the New York Deep Tech Week, shout out to those guys. And I put it on the slide as three things. There's boom, vroom, and zoom. Easy to remember.
Boom is weapons. Physics will create weapons... Or everything else with the possible exception of biologicals. Zoom, vroom, is energy.
And the story of energy is basically the story of prosperity and control. If you look at wealth and the amount of fossil fuels burned, it's more or less like a one-to-one correlation as to which nations are rich and poor, per capita. And zoom is everything else. It's propulsion.
It's computation. It's communication. And those things, if you take them together, more or less define the economy in the world order. Physics is the center of what makes us modern humans.
And it became too dangerous in the 1950s. Even the 40s, atomic weapons are extremely bad, but they're not hydrogen bombs. Somehow, in November of 52, everything changed. And we became too dangerous.
The community of physicists is the most powerful group of people made into completely ineffectual humans. And you think this is by design? Partially. And what was the purpose of it?
By saying that physicists became too dangerous. The idea became too dangerous. The idea is the idea that the weapons would become so immense and powerful, that they had to do something to stop and curb it. We didn't know how to control it.
In 1940, we set up something called the Reference Committee, which I'm sure you're listeners have never heard of. And the Reference Committee lived inside of the National Resource Council. Now, why was it important? Because chain reaction physics was so hot.
Once the neutron was found, right? So think about neutrons as bullets. They can go right into the middle of an atom because they're not positively charged, so they're not going to be repelled by the nucleus. And they can bust apart atoms that are barely being held together.
And that's why you could get bullets, be getting bullets, be getting bullets, and that's what a chain reaction is. The people who were doing that in the 30s suddenly found that when they mailed off a paper to a journal, if they weren't part of the secret group in Los Alamos, their paper got held up and sent back for revisions. And there was no money in it. We secretly set up this thing to shunt real research into the National Resource Council.
I think this was organized by a guy named Bright, B-R-E-I-T. And that was the beginning of this whole peer review control mechanism. And this control, do you think is this ego-based, that the people who are the gatekeepers want to remain in the position of... We all want to survive, Joe.
I mean, this is a real problem. So you and I can hate on the institutions all we want from the safety of the JRE. But what are you going to do when it becomes really, really easy for people to commit mass murder? If you think about all the really bad math, like the Vegas shooting, it never really got sorted out, it's very hard to kill large numbers of people using things like bullets.
If you want to really kill a large number of people, you're going to go to biologicals and you're going to go to nuclear. And what happens when that becomes easy? Like maybe it's a lot easier to build these weapons than the way we currently do it. Right now we're a bottlenecked on things like centrifuges.
And by the way, who knows what the next innovation in physics is going to bring? So I always say this thing, if you're not tracking everybody at my level, what are you doing as an intelligence? Is this part of your concern about the missing scientist? Yeah, of course.
Yeah, so the missing scientist narrative for people that aren't aware of it. I think they're up to 15 now and a lot of people say that some of these connections are baseless and some of them just happen. It's not really up to 15. No, okay.
So what do you think we're actually up to? I don't know, probably five or six. But I saw someone online did a breakdown of it and essentially they were saying that the odds of this being a coincidence are off the charts. That the people that are all involved in very specific types of technological research, different things that are top secret that all of these people either wind up missing.
There's a lot of murder in math and physics, first of all. People don't really appreciate that. The Unibomber was a famous PhD mathematician. He's a big story.
There was a guy named Cantor who broke into David Rittenhouse Laboratories in University of Pennsylvania where I was an undergraduate and shot up a seminar. There was this situation in Iowa where a relative of mine got a seat in the physics department because somebody was killed by one of the graduate students. I think it became a movie like Dark Matter. So there's an incredible amount of murder.
The ball peen hammer killing of what's called Dilu by Strolesky at Stanford. So first of all, there's just a lot of death because mathematicians and physicists are somewhat close to unhinged. And it's a really nasty, there's a lot of nasty culture and sometimes it becomes violent. Why do you think they're close to unhinged?
You spend that much time in your head. I'm amazed that I'm as well grounded as I am. No, seriously, you're just way out in the stratosphere. I completely forget who I am, where I am, that I'm even a human being.
When you're using your body as an instrument, as you do in combat sports and training, you become a different thing. You know the archery thing where you have to twist your arm. A lot of people don't know that they can do that initially. Just a small thing like that.
What are you talking about, archery thing that you twist your arm? If you have an old style bow, you often get burned by the... Oh, you have to twist your arm like that. So you're not like this and you don't get to hit.
But you don't see it, but then you twist it, you're wrist. I don't do that kind of archery. That's why I'm confused. Well, okay, sorry.
You do real... This kind. Keep your hand like that. Okay.
That's a torque issue. But if you're a sniper, you know, there are all sorts of things about breathing and how you adjust your eyes. You use your body as an instrument as a mathematician or a physicist. One of the reasons that I wish I were in better shape is that in order for me to keep my mind in a particular way, I have to not think constantly about suppressing food.
So you're doing a very unnatural thing. And that unnatural thing, not everybody can handle it. Right. And also our minds are more perfect.
The messiness of the world and the perfection of our minds is at odds with each other. And I love disappearing into math and physics because it's perfect. But how does that lead to violence? You're upset because people are lying.
Like the Unabomber had really interesting points. He wasn't a dumb guy. He was really correctly... He has an amazing story called Ship of Fools.
I highly recommend that anybody read it. Just the way Charles Manson's Look at Your Game Girl is a great song. It's a great song. Okay.
We're not comfortable, in part, with coming back to the half measures and the special pleading that sort of characterizes normal life. So to get back to the Missing Scientist narrative, I don't think they're 15 Missing Scientists in this dataset that's bullshit. It seems like they're adding as many as they can. Yeah.
They're trying to make connections that don't seem to... Don't do that. It's like the junkification of the UFO narrative. All of these narratives have a junk to them so that...
And I believe a lot of the junk is a fix to the narrative so that those who want to follow the institutional instruction to ignore the fact that this is happening can point to the crappiness. Right. And so that's the out. And the really difficult thing that you do, and you do really well, is that you try to piece together, okay, what's bullshit, what's real?
There's a lot of real in the UFO story and there's a lot of nonsense. There's a lot of real in the COVID story and a lot of nonsense. The same thing is true for physics. Physics is more dangerous.
And the fact that we're not tracking, like I always wonder why they allow me to come on the Jerry and say stuff. I know a lot of stuff that I don't know what it unlocks. Well, it's easy to dismiss anybody who comes on here. Sure, but China is smarter than...
And by the way, the LLMs. I mean, look, there are a lot of threads here. To get back to the physics, and I'm giving a talk tomorrow on the... You, Texas Austin, on supporting science, math, and physics, and renewing our commitment to it.
I don't want to give the impression that it isn't dangerous or that the gatekeeping is stupid. It's really important to do great gatekeeping around mathematics and physics. It's cryptography, it's weaponry, it's propulsion, it's a sudden change in the world economy. If you figured out how to do fusion, it would have immediate geopolitical results.
So these specific scientists that are missing, whatever the number is, five, six that you think are legitimate, what specifically are they working on that's so dangerous? Well, the fusion guy, obviously, is an MIT. Is anybody who might... I don't know.
The fusion isn't my thing. Plasma's my thing. But that is unquestionably dangerous, if you imagine how much depends on oil. And is it a good assumption that if you have one incredibly brilliant person that's at the head of this thing and they make a breakthrough?
If you kill that guy, the whole thing isn't disarray because the people that are under him, whatever people he has working with him, aren't as fully immersed in it as he is, that you can kind of like handicap a problem. It's like, let's say if there's... The top five people. It's an energy thing.
Let's say if it's an energy thing. Let's say if someone has some new technology that's going to completely disrupt the fossil fuels industry. And they go, listen, we can kill this fucking guy. And it's still coming down the pipe, but we'll delay it by 10 years and make $15 trillion.
So this is a question about the far right tail, like the extreme right tail of human intelligence and ability. And if you think about certain areas where you have a dominant figure, Rodney Mullen in skateboarding, for example, what percentage of all tricks derived from Rodney Mullen, you couldn't have stopped skateboarding, but you could certainly have held it back by getting to Rodney Mullen. When it comes to guitar, the amount of impact that Jimmy Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen had is just wildly disproportionate. When I was doing my podcast, I was really excited to do Rodney Mullen and Eddie Van Halen together.
I wanted to get them totally different sports, but those two guys are sort of the same. They just created so much vocabulary you can't even imagine it. Eddie Van Halen doesn't get the credit he deserves either. Tell me, talk to me.
Well, it's just Van Halen became Van Hagar, and it became a different kind of music. And I think a lot of the original hardcore fans left, but I think it got more popular with sure, Sammy Hagar, but it was a different kind of music. And not that it's bad, but it's different. And then I think a lot of people just went, nah.
But if you go to some of the big Van Halen with David, I think Van Halen with David Lee Roth in his prime was literally a perfect band. It was phenomenal. They were the shit when I was in high school. I mean, everybody had Van Halen on their notebooks.
They made the V.A. I remember it. They were awesome. And they were so good.
And Van Halen and Eddie specifically could shred so hard in some of those classic riffs. I just don't think in the mainstream world he got the credit that he deserves. I see it differently. What people mention Clapton, who of course is a great wizard, always it's number one is Hendrix.
Most people have Hendrix as number one because he was so revolutionary. Well, nobody's going to say Allen Holzworth. Yeah, I don't know who he is. Exactly.
I mean, my point is that David Lee Roth kept Eddie Van Halen from becoming Allen Holzworth. And that's... Who's Allen Holzworth? Oh, it's interesting.
Allen Holzworth... If you talk to your hot shit guitarist friends, they will very often... Everybody will just pause and say, well, that's Allen Holzworth. Really?
Yeah. And it's sort of like listening to a modem for normal human beings. That's why it's just not popular. So Eddie Van Halen...
Who did he play with? I don't know what Allen Holzworth is. Just by himself. Yeah.
Can we just actually weirdly put Allen Holzworth? Just choose something with it. Yeah, yeah, we'll listen to something. So we might have edited it out of the episode because otherwise we could ding-dong it.
Okay, we'll play it. And then we'll just go right back to it. All right. Give me some, Jamie.
Is that a perfect song that you'd like? No, it all. It's all mind melting. It's not going to say if he's got anything popular we might have known so I could tap into that, but I don't see nothing.
Like, is there a song that you like that you could recommend? I just listen to a certain amount of it and then I don't listen to it again. I'm not at that level where I need Allen Holzworth. Okay.
That's heavy. No, what does that mean? Thank you, Jamie. I'd rather see some time flying through the air with his pants on fire than...
Let's now hold it. Damn, damn, damn. Okay, here we go. Live in Tokyo.
1984, Live in Tokyo Dream. See if you can use the histogram to figure out where the nerds are going. Histogram? Yeah, it shows you where people spend their time on a video.
Oh, wow. I would go right in the middle of it or something. Alright, check in. What's it doing?
You're still out there. Nothing's going on right now. Put it in the middle, Jamie. What?
You've heard this before though? Yeah. Is that a bass? What is the other guitar I'm hearing?
Because that is not matching up with what that bass player seems to be playing. Do you hear that extra guitar? That's slower. Off time.
I don't know. That's a bass I think. So, that's a sign. My guitarist friends are just salivating.
And all of them. They won't help. I mean, no offense. But it's...
Can't be great. It sounds like jazz, right? So it's like jazz guitar. Like there's no singing.
Oh, look. If I put on... If I... No more GR.
I've had it. Oh, Jamie. Jamie, you were going to have so much nerd hate. I mean, I've had people agree with me too, I believe.
Oh, 100%. That was my point. That was my point. I think David Lee Roth had some comment about it.
If it weren't for me, the brothers would be playing biker bars in the Far Valley or something. And so David Lee Roth came up with what we call the syntactic sugar. The thing that made Van Halen fun and listenable and danceable, like dance the night away. Yeah.
Just... I didn't like Van Halen. I love what I'd say. I never liked Van Halen.
Oh, how dare you. Well, but I loved Eddie Van Halen. And... You liked Van Halen?
I didn't... You wanted... I'm not even embarrassed about that, what I'm embarrassed about. I completely dismissed ACDC in real time because I'm an idiot.
Oh. I've never been more wrong about something in my life. How did you dismiss ACDC? Good question.
They had a dumb thing going on with the school pants and the dirty deeds done dirt cheap and... Fucking song. Well, you know, like musically hot for teacher is an amazing composition. Yeah.
Unbelievable, right? But the key thing that they figured out is making things marketable. Right? Right?
And that's David Lee Roth. And I think it's David Lee Roth. Yeah, it was so charismatic and did jumping splits. Yeah, it was amazing.
Amazing. And he had a secret weakness for old-timey music. Right? Like Justin Jigolo, Ice Cream Man, all that kind of stuff.
So he's like almost a throwback to 1930s, you know, even earlier, Vaudeville. He's an odd guy, have you ever met him? I've wanted it so badly. I'm so jealous.
But I don't think you ever really get to him. It's always the show. Like in podcasts, it's like I really enjoyed talking to him, but it's a little odd. I've seen, I didn't love the way he was.
Like I would go to the Jewish angle. I would connect to him based on shared cultural heritage. But what I think about Eddie is that Eddie wasn't just a guitarist. He was an electronics guy, he was a keyboard player, he was handsome as the day as long.
He was sitting with charisma. And like you and I mostly don't know whether guys are good looking. I know Eddie Van Halen was good looking. Tell me more.
He was the whole thing. Yeah, for sure. Right. And so my feeling is that those two guys really, you know, it's one of those things where you have two guys in a band that, you know, both of them are one of a billion kind of people and they happen to meet.
I'm happy to be wrong about Van Halen, but I didn't do it in real time. I came to it later. But I remember the first time I heard Van Halen one, I had the same mystical thing. What is that?
Nothing sounds like this. I've almost never had that in music. You know, the first time I heard smells like Team Spirit. What is that?
Those, you know, these moments where something discontinues. But you heard like, ain't talk about love and that never got you? No, Panama doesn't get me. Ain't talk about love.