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#2521 - Aravind Srinivas - The Joe Rogan…

The Joe Rogan experience My pleasure. Yeah, how many podcasts have you done? I don't know I don't know the count but maybe tense Well when we were talking we were talking to lobby I was like this dude dude be a good guest because we were talking about ancient Hindu scriptures where you were talking to me about something that sounds like a nuclear bomb Yeah, I was like oh the Brahmasra. I need no more.

Yeah. Yeah, so the Brahmasra is part of the Mahabharat I mean you've talked about Mahabharat. Yeah, yeah, so the Mahabharat is one of the two Hindu epics The other one is Ramayana, but Mahabharat is more interesting. It's more complicated It's like a lot of different stories interleaved together and the Brahmasra is the equivalent of the hydrogen bomb And how is it described?

It's described as a weapon of like mass destruction Gonna annihilate like human population should not be used at any cost There's like a moral contract like you clearly have to be like, you know violating so many things at a deeply moral level to even like wield it and It's not actually it's not actually accessible to most warriors It's probably like two warriors in the world in that era who were allowed to use it And and it has to be passed through special access like a teacher has to like pass it on to you the secret to use it Almost like a new thing about it's like the equivalent of a nuclear code, right? And Arjuna had it this this particular character in Mahabharat called Arjuna He was allowed to use it And then this other person was this basically Arjuna had a teacher named Drona and Drona had a son named Ashutama and Ashutama was always jealous of Arjuna Arjuna was not Drona's son, but he was his model disciple and so Drona passed on the secret of the Brahmastra to him and Drona's son also wanted it but because he was a son he also passed on the secret to the son even though the son wasn't as good as Arjuna And there was during the war Arjuna and Drona fought on the opposite sides It's just uh, you know circumstances and uh and and and it's and it's dad died Ashutama's dad the teacher died in the war And so the son got mad and like unleashed the Brahmastra and laar Krishna had to come and save save the planet to not not get that destruction force How old is the Mahabharata? Again, there's a lot of different opinions on this so I don't actually know for sure My understanding is at least it's 1,500 to 2,500 years old Like like 1,500 years ago is the minimum 2,500 years ago is the maximum so it happened in some period in that 1,000 year time frame between that and um There's still like it's still unclear if like a lot of it is just like, you know being My telegized, um and what actually happened was just a war between Kins uh, there were two groups of people that panda was in the car was and um You know each side thought they were fighting for their own rights and justice But um at the end of the day you can cruelly understand it as like Essentially fight for the kingdom um Basically, they were like there was a previous generation and two brothers and both brothers had a bunch of kids and those kids were warring to get the next one like and um that ended up being like a massive war and a bunch of other allies fought on each sides and um Um so many amazing weapons were used as part of the war and a lot of these weapons are like Extremely like describe an extreme level of detail that is pretty incredible Like there's a lot of detail around like targeted weapons So you could precisely identify a target and just shoot at that um and then uh, Largis explain what the weapon is. Yeah, so there's one weapon called the divastra where you can just Specifically target any any particular person or a group and it would just automatically direct itself and do it almost like a semi-autonomous weapon And then lord Trishna had this um Weapon called the sudarshan chakra.

It's basically a discus and then you can just release it and it'll go and specifically identify somebody and chop Up their head and come back to your you know, right? It's self-directs itself. So my what I was amazed by is how um interesting it is in terms of um all the autonomy in the weapons semi autonomy autonomy where the weapons could just be directed at people or like directed at You know a group of soldiers and it would just go and do its job and come back to the leader And um, there was so many different asros divastra where an astra nagasra Ramasros obviously the ultimate the hydrogen bomb equivalent and all of these are like described in a lot of detail and like who has access to it And of course, it's it's a mythologized So it's described as just like these arrows in your like You know back of your shoulders, but you could you can understand it It's like, you know somebody having just access to a lot of weapons and then Whoever was powerful would go capture and colonize and like gain power and Essentially a fight between a group of cousins that that's the bottom line of that story Now if we think of history as this linear progression from caveman to us And we hear about autonomous weapons that were written in the maha brought to somewhere around 2000 plus years ago We'll go well mythology Yeah, but if not if there's been some sort of rise and fall of civilization if there has been catastrophic Whatever it is asteroid impacts shifting of the poles, whatever it is Yeah, it's caused great disasters You can imagine that these people are remembering a time where there was some sort of very advanced civilization And this is what they're describing like if you knew for a fact that there had been a great advanced technologically advanced civilization I mean we have evidence that they had some technology like the pyramids of kizah and stuff like how do you do that? I don't know there's some technology involved, right?

Yeah, but we don't have evidence of the technology Yeah, but if we did if we knew for a fact you would look at the maha brought to go Oh, this is history They're just explaining it in a kind of crude contemporary way for the time arrows instead of you know semi-autonomous drones Yeah exploding heads on them. Yeah, I mean that's what we have now all those things that they're describing hydrogen bomb semi-autonomous and autonomous drones I mean they have they have autonomous fighter jets now like they don't need people anymore Like this where we're in that area right now So when you read about something like that from the maha brought to you like okay, what what was really going on? This episode is brought to you by square space if you're thinking about building a website you should try square space I know because I use it that's right joerogan.com is powered by square space It has all the features that you need to create a standout website like an AI enhanced website builder SEO optimization tools and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links head to squarespace.com Slash rogan for a free trial and when you are ready to launch use the offer code rogan to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain This episode is brought to you by uber eats hockey seasons here and uber eats is delivering game day deals on favorites like wings pizza fries and snacks And you can order more than food like gear to rep your team or fresh batteries for the remote when your watch party gets hungry Or you just need anything order in and keep everyone's attention on the ice score great deals On uber eats all season long because hockey is for the hungry terms apply product availability varies by region see app for details Exactly. Yeah, I mean that's always been my fascination with with those epics and uh the level of detail with which they describe all these weapons And who had access uh different levels of access the status required to have access and uh how it was used in the wars um different formations of the soldiers like they had all these like crazy formation structures like forming the army like lotus forming the army like a um You know, there's something called chakra view how like like literally like it has to have concentric circles So you cannot like actually get into the innermost circle without going through the outer circles And then you can get killed by each of the flanks whenever you're trying to enter in and the secret of how to actually break into these view has view has means formations was only known to a few people and um it's it's it's incredible like you could say okay like somebody had to be extremely um Skillful to have that sort of like visualizations and imaginations of describing story like that and obviously like talking has done an amazing job A lot of the rings, you know and creating so much detail at the same time like a lot of it actually coming through in real life in some form Again, not exactly the same weapons, but similar style makes you wonder Was there actually something around then and uh people have tried excavations in all these areas That's like two main areas in the mahabar it has seen up or was the name of the kingdom and people have done excavations around there And have like found some artifacts that might date back to those years But uh, there are also some details that are describing the picks that don't quite align with reality for example All the men all the main warriors In in that era were described as like very tall very big um seven eight feet whatever, you know, I don't even know exact numbers but um but um but um Studies by archaeologists also say that people who live in those years in those regions were probably not more than six feet tall So it's not clear exactly like what happened what was correct What was not correct and you know, we just have to keep probing more But I find the idea fascinating to think of like what could have existed in sacred texts That was only partially communicated to the next generation and having a lot of like reinterpretations Another thing that is very interesting thing about is vedic mat So, um, that basically vedic mat is like a branch of mathematics that you know, some people in India are growing up learning Like I I read it myself too And uh, some people actually practice it just to be sharper at mental mat for doing their exams like g mat and things like that gari and um um It has like a line in the Vedas that says oh like one from the last digit two from the first digit Whatever, you know so many different ways of multiplying two different numbers like 97 times 96.

Oh, like subtract last two digits put it in the right Multiply the first is put it in the left that's that's the result and um Then you you wonder like oh wait the Rig Veda so old is as old as is the oldest sacred text out there How is it describing computation that feels right very unreal like do they actually know or understand advanced form of computation? Even back in those days and uh, and how old is Rig Veda? Um, I don't exactly know how old it is. Uh, we put that in the perplexity Yeah, let's find out.

Yeah, yeah, it is technically the oldest sacred text out there And so what's interesting is I wonder how old the stories were by the time they were written down Like how much of it is relayed person to person For years and years just like the bible before it's ever actually written out It's always usually date the composition of Rig Veda to about 1500 to 1200 BCE So it's oldest layers roughly 3200 3,700 years old today Like I if there really was like every uh ancient culture has a story with flood everyone They don't have an apocalypse Mambar had the same thing was it my bar? My bar had the same thing where there was a big like almost like a tsunami like I don't exactly know what it was called But that was a collapse of lord Krishna's kingdom d'warka After the war a lot of people died, but some people survived and even those who survived got wiped out by a calamity or like some kind of like uh, um fight among themselves and Most of the people who participated in that era actually died here it is the immorio. How do you say it? Manu?

Yeah, Manu flood classic can do great flood myths where the righteous king manu is worn by divine fish about an imminent deluge that will destroy humanity He builds a boat loads with his family. It's like no in the ark. It's the same thing with seeds and animals Ties it to the horn of the god in fish form which toads the boat to safety until the waters recede and the world is repopulated They all have the same story. Yeah, that's what's really crazy.

There's a there's a concept in um Hindu philosophy called the ugas So i'm reading a book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So uh, there's like different ugas and ugas are like thousands of years and the concept is that the ugas keep cycling around And so like we are in the kaliyuga right now And before that was a doppler yuga that's when most of them are happening before that it was a tweta yuga where the wrong mind happened And before that was another yuga what is next after kaliyuga? No, there's nothing next after kaliyuga it goes back to the first one I forget the name of the first yuga because the what the interpretation that i'm reading is that we're not in kaliyuga anymore and that kaliyuga Ended in the 1900s and doppler yuga started then no no we are in kaliyuga right hundred percent so why do people have different interpretations? Like there is there is a yeah, there's like a guru interpretation There's like one specific guru. I see that has this interpretation that kaliyuga ended in the 1900s Okay, and that we're moving on interesting.

Yeah, but I don't know who's right because it's it's an enormous cycle right the size of humanity Yeah thousands of years thousands of years and uh so yeah, so these are the four ugas um and uh So why do people have different interpretations what looks i'll tell you the book i'm reading. Yeah See if this book is discredited young jammy it is um It's by a guy named uh david Steinowitz Stein Stein mattes david Stein mattes the book is called the ugas interesting Yeah, I mean the problem is when someone's got their own interpretation or some gurus interpretation It doesn't totally align. It's hard to know who's right and who's wrong. Yeah, keys understanding are hidden past emerging energy age and enlightened future Yeah, so that will go back up to that again.

So this is in the description see what it says that Where it says in 1894 an indian sage gave us an explanation not only for hidden past but for the trends of today and for future enlightenment So there's like one guy's interpretation that this guy is going off of i guess the difference might be that um He thinks that yoga cycle is 24 000 years first. I think it's probably much longer than that. Yeah, um Four yugas together is four million three hundred twenty thousand years. You know, it's really nutty.

Yeah, one of the really nutty things is um both in the ancient Sumerian texts and in some of the ancient egyptian texts There's depictions before the flood of people who rained for thousands of years as kings Yeah, and it's common It's not it's and it's also they're referenced multiple times in different scripts that are from different parts of uh, what was Sumer at the time It's really weird because they take it as established history once it gets to a certain age Once they get into like whatever the age is where they can verify that this person was the king for a certain period time But it's all in the same text as people that rained for 6 000 years. Yeah, it's really one of them just wipes out the whole thing. Yeah, and um, I mean This is also somewhat like tangentially related to um, um, the fermi paradox You know like if you assume all these things are happening on earth itself that entire civilizations are getting wiped out Um, and like we always wonder you you've explored this topic the most, um, and um, very daleens right and um, there are different arguments that like, okay, like the reason we haven't quite found that is because The great footer exists and uh, there's like one entertaining theory that um, I like just for the sake of entertainment is um, almost all civilizations end up advancing technologically a lot and um, either a calamity wipes them out or like they build some misaligned AGI and an AGI wipes mod and um, and because of that, um, they never actually like end up being visible to us or the other theories that like they're like, um, we haven't quite built the wine non-probes to actually go find them and um, both of them are plausible and um, it's you know, that there's there's no clear way to like, no Unless we actually like send out enough probes. This episode is sponsored by better help.

We've come a long way with mental health, but there's still work to be done Better helps 2026 state of stigma report surveyed 2000 Americans revealed that 85 of Americans believe getting support is wise Yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so One thing that can help is to have more open conversations about mental health struggles and encourage people to seek out help not judge them And you know what else helps better help they make connecting with a professional therapist simple and it actually works Their live sessions have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 don't let stigma stand in the way of support start therapy with better help Sign up and get 10 off at betterhelp.com.com.com.com.com There's a bunch of possibilities I mean, there's almost too many to count but there's the possibility that they are observing and that they don't want to interfere and that we are on Some sort of a evolutionary cycle. Yeah, cycle of cultural evolution civilization evolution And one of the things about this the crazy ages that comes from the Sumerian text and from um, the ancient The hieroglyphs that depict the zep-tet how do you say it zep-tetty? No, how am I saying that? What is that text that ancient?

Remember we talked about it was ahi hawasani tonight its existence Zep-tetty is that it? Either way, you're dealing with these kings that reign for thousands and thousands of years Well, you know, Davidson Claire is in the middle of this research now that they're working on life extension drugs like they're actionable. Yeah, that's it zep-tetty Um, so these what this is what's so weird if they look at hieroglyphs, they get to a certain point and they're like, oh kufu He was real this guy was real all these people were real Yeah, but then they get back to these guys that reign for thousands of years they go all that was horseshit But why is it that all these people have these stories that align with this timeline that's pre-flood? It's all like the same story.

Yeah, and then if you're talking about These ancient hindu scriptures that are discussing Technology that seems remarkably similar technology that we have today. Yeah, the monos are flying cars basically and probably what we're going to have a hundred years Now or whatever it is or we could have gone that way in the past. It's very interesting to think like let's say something happens to us Right. I don't want anything happens to us and would people really believe you were like launching reusable rockets, right?

Or making face time calls to be in Australia. Yeah. Yeah, like even fundamental things like all we were doing today. Um, I think it's all like incredible like there's a lot of things that could be just technological ideas or maybe people actually had it and the knowledge of it was lost And it's not been documented.

It's not been passed along and so we're skeptical if they ever had it And so we end up reinventing it in different forms again and again and we keep cycling through this process Well, it also could be that this is the natural progression of human curiosity the human curiosity and ingenuity always moves into these very particular ways Like what's the best way to defeat my enemies? Yeah, if we're always going to be territorial primates We're always going to want to defeat our enemies. We're always going to want to protect ourselves from being invaded So we're going to make better and just with technological innovation. It just goes down the same path Oh, we figure out bullets.

Oh, we figure out nuclear bombs. Well, we figure out well, we don't even have to use an actual plane We can use an autonomous drone and that delivers it and then scale upwards and onwards and AI and and then also life extension So if these people were able to make the pyramids like You know, there's a lot of speculation as to the timeline of the pyramids, but let's just say they really built it 2500 BC. Let's just say back then. What the fuck were they using?

Like what were you? What did you do? How did you get these stones down from the mountains where 500 miles away? That one how about that one?

Yeah, we were gonna get to that for sure There's a ton. No, thank what's good. Good as any how about these temples that they find in India that are carved entirely out of one piece of stone What did you do? How did you do that?

How long ago did this happen? How many of them were buried and then they had to uncover them and then like figure out like what is this? Who made it? There's no timeline.

No one really knows There's no evidence of tools that were capable of doing this kind of work back then and they're huge and beautiful and perfect And they have like acoustic properties and the geometry is fucking fantastic. Yeah, it's not It's not that all these temples were actually just built not just they were specifically the locations for them or picked out so that you get the right seismic vibrations over there in terms of like Proximity to the ocean the gravitational waves from the sun and the moon people actually made that level like look at this man Imagine the undertaking of carving that temple out of the side of a fucking giant piece of rock Yeah, you screw up one thing and it's over there's no simulations. You just have to build it. What they have this is the question Like imagine today if we had to do this look it's possible.

This is a possible endeavor It can be done. Yeah, but imagine what kind of technology we have to need to map it out to make sure that it was all precise That it all I mean, it's precise within like millimeters from point to point And everything is done out of one piece of stone. Like what did they do? Was it chisels?

Did you do that with chisels? That's crazy How many times you have to sharpen your fucking chisel? That's nuts or do you have something completely different because some of the more intricate ones Some of the crazy ones inside these temples there's sculptures that are three-dimensional and they're carved like inside of the sculpture So there's like an outer area and then there's these all these openings and then inside it's highly detailed like How do you even reach in there? It's just as these chisels and hammers and I don't think that's possible And careful Trying to do that.

They see like this is how much work someone could do in like 12 hours with a hammer and they get nowhere Like perfect and looking good. Yeah, it's nuts man And there's a lot of evidence of stuff like that all over the world, which is really weird You have the stuff in Peru like socks and huaman when you look at these stones and it looks like they're melted into place And they're 900 tons like what did you do? Yeah, how did you even get it up there? How did you get it?

How did you get it there? How did you line it perfectly built in only 18 years? How do you know that? How do you know that?

Because it's uh attributed to one king. Yeah, so king christian the first 756 to 773 CE Maybe I mean, how do you know though? In a certain archaeologist that would have they calculated it would take them a hundred years to do it Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is very like, you know different historian accounts are all like modeled up, you know, well, it's a real problem History is a real problem, but yeah, it goes back to like the thing you were saying, right, you know What is one thing that's common across all these different ages is human curiosity? So I mean, that's something that you know, I would love to get your take on this Um, like I've been talking with this idea called the curiosity premium Which is the most effective people the most successful people have always been the most curious people the ones who've been good at asking the best Questions and they tend to bear in every aspect of their life And uh, you're a good example of that.

So that's why I would love to get your take on this And the reason I believe that is because um Long-term people who continuously ask questions tend to do better. They make more money. They have a higher quality of life They're happy they have more compounding relationships people find them more interesting and so they compound their relationships over time And so uh naturally they end up succeeding but their spirit of inquiry their Intrinsic curiosity doesn't actually stop once they succeed It only they just channelize it even more and so that's why it keeps compounding and I would argue that like it's the only quality It's only like quality that makes us really human You know in the world where we can seek a lot of information and get information way faster than ever before It feels like that's that one universal human quality that's existed since ancient time since the oldest text like in fact in the rig way Um, you're explicitly encouraged to seek wisdom more than built And it's not just an idea specific to Hinduism that specific idea exists in the bible exists in the karan exists in the Torah It's not that seeking well as admonished by religious texts. It's actually that it's more important to seek wisdom And um, you know like you can why I said you're a good example of that is like sure you have a very very large podcast But the way you're running it is like you're just curious about a lot of things and asking a lot of questions And I think that's that one quality that's very important.

So um, and I feel like it's the oldest thing It's the only thing that we've known since ancient time being curious Well, I I think it's stimulating to people and genuine curiosity is stimulating to other people when someone is genuinely curious about something I become curious about it. I think it's contagious and I think that it's it's also an authentic quality And I think there's there's something about really wanting to know something and being interested in something And if you're curious generally you're gonna ask more questions about something so you have a deeper understanding of it So if you're trying to do whatever you're trying to do a sport a game You'll probably get better at it because you're more curious because instead of just assuming things you'll ask more questions You'll reexamine things. It's genuine. It's one of the most important human qualities and to me.

It's one of the most attractive human qualities It's always been when I meet curious people. I'm always interested. I'm always like like tell me what you're curious about I'll tell you what I'm curious about with talk, you know, it's it's um and this podcast started out genuinely because of Well, a lot of us is just talking shit with friends But it also led into like one of my very first guests actual guests was Graham Hancock And it's just because I was curious because I read fingerprints of the gods and I've seen him talk I'd seen speeches I'm like I want to know like what do you know? What do you think's going on?

and He's another guy incredibly curious and absolutely fascinated with his his takes on ancient history He has been talking about this subject a long time and when he first when he first wrote fingerprints of the gods I think that came out in like I want to say like 97 or 98 or something like that and I remember reading it and so many of my friends You know educated friends like those horseshit white paintings more and more and more as time goes on It's been proven that he's correct the timelines shifted back and from the publication of that book the discovery of go back lattepe And the surrounding area like it's like okay now we realize well there was something crazy shit going on at the very least 11,000 years ago So we pushed the civilization back 5,000 years So like and this is just what we found now and we keep finding things keep taking keep looking And then you see the stuff that they're finding underneath the pyramid with this radio tomography where they're looking under the pyramid that it seems that There's structures under the we've seen that stuff. I haven't seen that I had the scientist that's involved in it. He's an Italian guy Felipe all beyondy and he came on the podcast wonderful accent Almost good as yours It was amazing, but he's describing the use of the stuff and that they've used it Successfully on known areas in pyramids and other structures and they can In fact they there's a in Italy. There is a particle collider that is underneath a mountain and using this technology Which is satellite based technology they get an accurate description of this particle collider That's I think it's 1200 meters underground like how far is that thing underground?

We'll find out but it's like deep understone And they find that they can get an accurate like and they can actually give you the dimensions of this particle collider They have like an image of it and this same technology is showing that there's these columns Underneath the pyramid in various places that are 20 meters wide And they have coils around them. They don't know what the hell they are and they the whole structure of this thing It's not small it goes almost a kilometer into the ground There's like this enormous like bottom of it and it seems like it's something that's constructed And so they're like okay. Well, the pyramid is crazy. It's crazy now But if there's something underneath it that's a man made or someone made it that's a kilometer deep into the ground like what the fuck are we even talking about?

Like who made this what what did they have? 1.2 kilometers into the mountain That's nuts. I have a fucking mile in it plus into the mountain And this thing can see through all that and get this accurate depiction of this particle collider And it's showing with multiple scans not just one multiple scans and different technology the same exact images the same exact structures underneath this Fucking immense 2 million 300,000 stone structure that almost perfectly aligns to true north south east and west like what what was going on? Don't tell me pulleys.

Don't tell me copper tools. What the fuck was going on something crazy And I have a feeling our simplistic explanation of it is just doing no one any justice It's doing no service to history. It's doing no service to our understanding They've got to be a little bit more open in the fact that they are perplexed and not just perplexed by stuff like this This is a 3d print of an actual vase that exists in Egypt that they found that is They found in tombs of the old kingdom this thing was somehow another it's made with die right so it's incredibly hard stone And made to like a thousandth of a human hair in in it's yeah like crazy dimensions like the way the precision of it and wasn't turned on a lathe because it has handles Yeah, so you look at the handles on the side where you can't carve those and those are perfect too Like the alignment of everything and it's like you just look at it. Oh, it's a boss.

No big deal But no, it's kind of fucking crazy. Like how did they cut that out? There's also these there's all these core marks in some of the stones that they find in Egypt And they've analyzed the amount of revolutions per minute that you would have to go through to be able to cut through something and leave these lines And then to fives explanation like what is this? This is great.

This is not sand and copper and just rubbing things. No, this is some insane technology that we don't understand There's scoop marks out of the bottoms of some of these stones. It's like what the fuck is this? I just scoop rock like what it looks like ice cream like they just went root Like what are they doing?

There's so many questions what tools did they even have to do all these things? They had copper I mean, there's there's some evidence that they had some iron and then I think too tonk comment had a dagger That was actually made from meteorite, which is interesting You know like when they could find meteorites and make things out of them was very valuable obviously But the just the sheer volume of work that they did there It's like you look at the temple in man You look at the the three major pyramids You look at all the different temples and all the construction and the older you go the deeper into the sand they go the more complex these things are Which is even weirder. Yeah, so it seems like civilization after civilization Just there was probably a rise and fall with their technology as well Absolutely, I think it's it's just incredible that none of this knowledge was probably documented ever And it's a whole like line of work to just go understand like how do you even rebuild these things leave it on how did they build it? Well, think about what we're doing, right?

So all of our knowledge is essentially stored on hard drives and paper. This is the two things that are going to deteriorate the work is Maybe we should take a dump of the internet and put out a rock go preserve it somewhere So that yeah, even if our civilization is wiped out and all the data centers are gone or whatever Whoever comes next can go figure it out Well, I mean then you've got to always assume that even if they found a hard drive that they would like how long would it take for them to back Engineer what we did and figure out what these ones and zeros actually mean Yeah, that which is one of the most bizarre and fantastic accomplishments. Yeah, modern civilization is like this is a terabyte Yeah, which is nuts. Yeah, I don't know what your first computer had I don't remember definitely not even a gigabyte probably no like a few hundred megabytes your hard drive Yeah, I mean I remember when they first came up with gigabytes.

I was like this is nuts Yeah, you know like when gmail launch and give everybody like free email storage unlimited email storage and the bottom sliding bar Which is keeping increasing in terms of the total allowed size. Yeah, and that was nuts to me Yeah, and I think yeah, we take it for granted that we have like infinite ram and infinite hard disk and nobody has to worry about like You know you're back in those days you worry about like taking too many photos on your phone Right, right and then you go delete all the old ones are bad ones. Yeah, you run out of storage. Yeah, yeah Then you have to buy like an external hard drive to keep storing things Yeah, I remember that's pretty stuff from your phone to the hard disk I remember the old android phones you get a SD card.

Yeah, you could slip one of those in there and you could store images on that Yeah, save space. Yeah, and all that stuff is so vulnerable It's so vulnerable and again if a completely alien society had to come down and find our hard drives And they went a totally different path of technology. They'd have to back engineer reverse engineer everything that we did try to figure out You know, what what are we using what operating system? How's the operating system work?

Is it Unix is it Linux is it like what is it how they do it? It would be a nightmare They would need an advanced AI to like figure it all out for them. Right. Yeah Yeah, and so that's just if the hard drive survived, right?

So if there's some massive flood cataclysm, whatever some some horrific thing that damages all of our electronics, which is totally possible You know, just some solar flare some intense We're just just another lab leak. No, right? Yeah, just time. Yeah, lab leak and time.

Yeah. Yeah It's nuts and it we could go back to zero real quick and we would basically be like preppers It would be hard to reverse engineer everything again. It would be almost impossible Yeah, which is why I'm really fascinated by the flood the post flood timeline because If these people like gram hancock and a lot of these other folks that have speculated that there was probably a very advanced civilization that went in a completely Different direction many thousands of years ago if you look at like the emergence of like sumer and you know Mesopotamia in that area, which a lot of people attribute to be the earliest known civilization That's around 5,000 plus 6,000 years ago, right? Yeah, roughly so the flood's like 11,000 years ago plus so you're looking at like 5,000 years of what?

It's not even that long in the grand scheme of things. No, not to the earth. Yeah, but for people Yeah, pretty long. Exactly.

Like they got how long it took us to get our shit together. Yeah, it took thousands and thousands and thousands of years of people probably being Monsters just being the worst of the worst. Yeah, and that's probably the only way they survived There's probably a lot of cannibalism. Yeah, there's a lot of murder There was a lot of like horrific shit going on for 5,000 years until people slowly but surely figured out agriculture again Yeah, so our building walls everybody relaxed a little Cussab solid weapons keep people away so you can work on math and then next thing you know civilization emerges again And it goes right you know goes right back onto the cycle and then you start reading in the the rig veda about stuff that happened thousands This like what happened.

Yeah, and that's my belief Yeah, I think there was something going on on earth many many many thousands of years before Established beginnings of history that was very bizarre and probably technology that went in a completely different direction Mm-hmm than what we're doing now with combustion engines and circuits and all the different things that we use they probably figured out some other kind of technology Exactly. Yeah, which is totally possible. It's amazing. Like it's amazing to think like what if we could we just go roll that again Yes Why would love to be able to I would love to just have a way if I could choose one window in time to go back to see what it would Look like I would 100% pick ancient Egypt while they're building the permits Going on yeah, there's just just put me in a big hamster wheel is a big plastic bubble where no one could see me Just let me violate space and time and exist there for just a few minutes Just let me look I think that would be the most insane thing that you could see about humans in human history Yeah, I just want to know what they knew what they had what they used in this thing petros at the same time period at least attributed to 7000 roughly BC Jesus and they you know, how would you write how the details of all those car carvings is insane insane Yeah, and what in 7000 BC?

What are the tools? What the how will you use? How'd you make a temple out of the side of a fucking mountain? Look at the size of it man the size of those columns It'll be hard to do anything like those even today.

It would be incredibly difficult insanely time-consuming Yeah, the Kali also temple by the way, I don't have it up right now But in 1650 or so someone sent a thousand people to try to destroy it and after three years of doing nothing They stopped they barely made it down on a couple statues. Yeah, a lot of times when invasions happen in India like I tried really hard to fuck it up And couldn't oh that's crazy. That's pretty robust That's a great way to describe it. It's just there's so much of that stuff that's so interesting because it's so undeniable It's so undeniable and it's scale so undeniable and its complexity and the planning and the understanding that you had to have a deep knowledge of Geometry of measurement of materials.

Yes, yeah everything. It's like there's just like calamities What tools are you using? Yeah, like how are you doing this? Are you coordinating all these people right getting them to do stuff?

I mean sure my conditions must have been very harsher like I'm sure people didn't really have a choice But to do these things because back in the days like the only way you could take care of your food and clothing and shelter It's like you commit yourself as a labor labor to the state of the kingdom But you could also ask like what what gave them the initiative or drive to go do these things? Yeah Well that description is perhaps of a later time We don't even really know what civilization was like when these were constructed Yeah, the real the real problem is the material science the real problem is like you there's a lot of things that you have to have to make those Things it's not as simple as a sculpture like Michelangelo making a sculpture out of something It's like fairly easy to carve into as far as stone goes now This is the scale is impa it's so undidiable that like something something some piece of our understanding is missing yeah Yeah, yeah, I mean it it oh like looking at all this like everyone should just be like a lot more humble right like yeah We don't actually know that much like what we know is like so little like right whatever like the same thing What's awkward is said what we know is very very little and the only thing we should all strive to be is to be curious and I think there's a lot of tendency for people to like think like oh like we have all the advanced technology We're so amazing like look at us and say wait hold on like you don't even understand what happened thousands of years ago And there's so much out there to just go and explore and learn and like get better understanding more what is this place This is yeah, this is unreal. This is called the Elora caves timeless wonder carved in stone They're all not I think it's all the kind of the same area. Yeah, it's the same Elora.

Okay, and the ship a temple So look at that my god look at this stuff. It's insane and again. There's no steel back then. It's actually really symmetrical It's not even like in Can you go back to the first one with this magical job?

Yeah, look at the symmetric the top That's nuts looks like that mall and New York they made where the world Yeah, but way more robust I Mean how what what would you do? You this is the thing is like the material science aspect of it Yeah, it's like you don't have the ability to do look at that top one good that top one again The one you just had Jamie. Yeah that one look at that's crazy man I mean I am just blown away when I see stuff like that my mind just starts racing and I just think how did you do this? Who who was involved?

How was it planned? How is it so symmetrical? What were the tools? Like what were the tools man?

Yeah, if you don't have steel you don't have what are you using? How'd you do most of it is done with stone clearly right? I guess I guess I doubt it I bet they had something else I bet they had something else that over time eroded just like metal wood today I mean if you left a shovel outside today And you came back to that same spot 500 years from now There's nothing that shovels gone right yeah, and you've got to assume that these many thousand-year-old temples that were carved out of a fucking Mountain whatever tools they used probably got absorbed by the earth and only time that's remaining yeah Yeah, we thought like when they make a big building downtown though They only bring the crane in for a temporary period of time and there's only so many cranes on the planet currently too So right true take it you move it you go take it to the next spot. Yep.

Yeah true Yeah, especially something like this like if they had heavy equipment and machinery and whatever the fuck they were using They probably moved it and then moved it out and then it probably rotted away And now it's gone if there was machinery if there wasn't like there must have been something else some other kind of like some technology That we haven't even imagined yeah but it's like they're Their commitment to art too was so fascinating because these aren't just structures their fashion projects Intensely beautiful yeah intensely ornate yeah, so it's not it's not just that they wanted to build like a functional structure Yeah, that good architecture. No, it's it's a fascinating artwork and it's so intricate There's so many different features and so many different images of different people and beings and animals and elephants There's one more temple like you could plot like it's called a ten-jour temple. I've seen that one too Yeah, that was done more recently in the age of the cholas and it's pretty incredible. When did they do that one?

I don't know the exact number but more recently than the ones that you saw all of them are nuts man And then there's stuff like that all over the world whoa This was done as a project by the king To basically make a name for himself Wow, that's incredible Is that multiple pieces of stone or did you carve that whole thing on a stone too? Probably multiple pieces. So that's actually like construction. Yeah, not like removal The other ones are it's essentially a giant sculpture.

Wow, it's so pretty like how geometric it is Yeah, that's what amazes me like they didn't actually have all these simulations and cat tools and all these things right and What year was this made Jamie? It's just so incredible how much of the stuff exists where it's really baffling like I just found out recently that the Aztecs didn't build those temples That they found them really yeah They found like the to know chitlan they call it the place where the gods were born The Aztecs found it and uncovered it and then on the when is it to know chitlan or Teal to con which whichever one it was on the consecration day when they were done with like whatever they were doing with it to celebrate They killed somewhere between 20,000 and 80,000 people in four days Not exactly the mindset of the type of people that constructs something like that Yeah, you know So those are the people that found it and it might have been sitting there for a thousand years and then they came along and said Oh, this is cool. Let's live here. Okay, well What was this society that lived there before them and where are they and what happened and how they do this and why they do it?

And why do they have it along with the constellations like what were they doing? Yeah? It's all the some of the calculations are pretty pretty amazing like how they timed it how they positioned it How they cared about planetary positions and stuff like that sure like some of it could even be pseudoscience, but whatever I think just the level of like calculations. They were making back in those days without you know powerful computers is Just outstanding.

It's just nuts and it doesn't make sense. It's like okay. They're making without powerful computers So what are they using? I mean at one point the word computer was just meant to human right human beings would be doing the calculations That was their only job like literally to like multiply two numbers.

I like to make some Astronomers were actually the first mathematicians the term mathematician astronomer were used it's an automatic statement point really yeah Why is that why most of the stars and math? Yeah, because like starting the stars involved making a lot of geometry calculations and That was kind of actually one of the first set of mathematicians in India people like Aria Bhatta Basquara all these guys were actually astronomers too. They were not just mathematicians Mmm, and Aria Bhatta was earlier still like the idea of using zeros and then he had a lot of like contributions in geometry And he's doing all this like just because he was interested in astronomy Isn't there evidence of Pythagorean theorem in ancient ancient Sumerian is it? It's some ain't something that predates Pythagoras interesting my theory is that even though it was not formulated as a Pythagorean theorem like I'm sure people had to understand concepts of science and cosines and like you know Whatever is the right angle for the right inclined to get this right level of like geometry You need to you need to have some implicit understanding of to build these kind of structures There's no way you could do without that.

Yeah, I understand you have to have incredible measurement tools Like not just the actual mathematics. Okay, the oldest known evidence of Pythagorean theorem dates from Old Babylonian clay tablets from about 1900 to 1600 BCE roughly 1000 years before Pythagoras in that wild like how how Clay tablets often cited use what we now call the Pythagorean theorem to complete its compute rather than diagonal of Rectangles and squares including an excellent approximation. Look at this. This is not man Vedic ritual text explicitly states the rule equivalent I don't know how to say that was that a square square square c squared for the diagonal of a rectangle that includes numerical examples predating or roughly Contemporary with classical Greek mathematics so completely different parts of the world.

Yeah, and they're coming up the same stuff exactly Because they're all curious. Yeah, they're all curious and eventually all curiosity leads to truth or some form of it I would argue that anything anything that's of impact in the world has only been done by curious people in hindsight We label those people as successful as smart or rich, but the common trait across all of them has been like curious Well, that's certainly a powerful trait and people that aren't curious are not fun Yeah, they're not interesting so because of that they don't attract other smarter interesting people and therefore they won't be able to do something very meaningful So it's kind of like It's less about and it applies to your personal relationships and personal life too It's not just about professional success Like you have a more fulfilling life with your wife or your kids if you're a more curious person you ask them more questions You're taking interested in right so that's that's the one quality everybody wants and personal relationships is like taking interest in them and like actually understanding them better or like being curious about common things and So it's not just that you know being curiously so success It's more that people around you want you to be successful if you're curious because you will have more compounding and full-fledged relationships I would agree with that. Yeah, I'd say it's one of the more important qualities of human beings I mean, it's led to everything that we have today all curiosity is led to all of our architecture math Yeah, everything art everything the transistor like you know that story in the transistor Yeah, so Bell Labs was basically employing as many like like history adjusted as many telephone engineers Back then as the number of software engineers say but only three people cared enough to question whether you should use these really hot giant vacuum tubes for amplifying telephone signals So vacuum tubes were very big power hungry and very hot and so they were not fault tolerant and it's very expensive And so three people questioned the need for that and came up with the idea of the transistor to amplify current and that that was the Nobel prize We're in discovery and not just that it was useful to amplify telephone signals It basically led to the rise of modern computing and we wouldn't have an iPhone like this today if not for those three people Do you know the tin foil hack conspiracy theory about transistors is no that they are back engineered from the Roswell crash along with fiber optics Any more so we read this on the podcast remember Jamie? There's the two scientists that were attributed There's just one scientist that said they weren't even remotely exceptional guys and that they gave them the credit for this So that they didn't have to reveal the true nature of where this technology came from.

I see so again tin foil hat securely on our heads This is not something I believe okay. This is just something that's fun There's a few inventions that came out of that time period roughly after 1947 That are weird and one of them is fiber optics and one of them is a transistor and these are supposedly attributed to back engineering programs So the Roswell crash I don't know if you ever paid any attention to it It's a real weird one because the cover of the Roswell daily record said that the government has a crash disc that landed in the desert A bunch of witnesses a bunch of people saw it. It's also people that saw supposedly saw physical bodies of these creatures and all supposedly Again who knows what's true, but Truman went to the site He visited it and then the planes two separate planes were flown to write Patterson Air Force base Which was I think was just right base back then I don't think it was right Patterson But they flew them out and the idea was this material was so important They didn't want to risk one plane crashing so they flew it in two different planes And that this stuff has always been known to be stored at right Patterson Air Force base That's what everybody was talks about and then a lot of it was moved to Bell Labs and there was a company called the American Computer Company and back in the day the American Computer Company was just like It was a consumer website where you could go and say oh I need a Windows computer that does this that and the other thing and you could just put in whatever respects were and they'd build it for you They had a whole section of their website dedicated to Bell Labs and back engineered UFO technology And all they talked about and this one like the whatever ran it was like a fucking cooke. I don't know is that still around?

Yeah, American computer companies are still around interesting. So this is like the 1990s I think your theory I mean not that you believe in it with the theories that The transistor was not like invented was known and it was given It's apparently a giant leap between the first ideas the transistor and then what what actually came about and how much money had to be spent to create it Off of this leap. This was this Assertion by the scientists that were trying to examine this the thing about Bell Labs is there's a military base right outside of Bell Labs And they said well that military base is to card New York City But New York City is quite a flight away But Bell Labs is right there Yeah, and they're working on some deep dark shit at Bell Labs for sure because I've had a bunch of people on that were talking about Remote viewing exercises that they were doing out of Bell Labs You know We've had a bunch of people that came on and talked about various programs that were going on that were like top secret programs that were happening That were being run through Bell Labs. There's some weirdness to that place like real weirdness.

Yeah, and it's fun. Yeah idea that like You know that it definitely feels very disconnected like okay, like you were using all these vacuum tubes And then suddenly you're like, okay, like what if we just use semiconductors? Okay, that's definitely a pretty far drift from what you were doing currently to what you're supposed to do and And also the idea of the first transistor and what ended up being used in chips the junction transistor are quite different too So they're like big leaps in terms of what the core idea was. It's not an incremental change The way I thought about it was like okay I was like tens of years of work and that's why they made a big change And so if you actually looked into the individual milestones they had maybe it would have looked pretty different But your conspiracy theory is pretty interesting like it's always fun Yeah, and and also there's just too many stories of this and David Grush is you know on oath said that they there are back engineering programs And he was right into these and that they've been around for a long time But this is the assertion of that movie the age of disclosure that the real problem is that they have misappropriated funds and lied to Congress And so if they come out and tell you okay, we do have this program Well guess what everybody goes to jail because you guys are a bunch of liars and you've been stealing money and you've been doing it Whatever you want to do with this money.

I don't know like how much how much oversight is there on back engineering UFO programs? You know, so probably a lot of people get in trouble a lot of people go to jail on top of that these things are all being done By weapons manufacturers, right? Like where you're gonna bring them to well You're gonna bring them to Lockheed Martin or you're gonna bring them to you know rocket time Or it's gonna be someone that does that kind of work Yeah, you're not gonna do it on your it's not gonna be like we'll do it No, you're gonna have to bring it to people that already make spaceships or bring it to people that already make jets Yeah, and so they have a massive competitive advantage over any other company that's doing it So there's other companies that also have construction of the United States government They can sue and so he lays out all the problems with disclosure and their assertion is that The only thing we need if we really want to find out the truth is we're gonna need widespread amnesty for all these people that were involved My problem with that is that's what I would say to if I had been stealing money for decades and decades I'd be like, I we need amnesty and then I'll tell you where all this stuff is I'm like how do we know what this stuff is whether or not these are just top-secret military programs with advanced propulsion technology? That's unavailable to the public and they're gonna say that as aliens and they back engineered this and they didn't that like They clearly don't want to tell people they don't want people to know a large part of it is probably because they could get in trouble But I think also a large part of it is because it's fun to keep secrets from people.

Yeah, especially when you're the government Why don't fuck those people? Yeah, fuck them. They don't even know UFOs are real Meanwhile, you know, we're going into a bunker in the middle of the mountain and we're remote viewing, you know It's it's probably there's probably a lot of fun involved in having access to information that most people would kill for yeah I mean there's so much information that we just you just don't have access to which brings me to this question With it seems like one of the things that's happening with both with AI and with technology in general is that you have more and more access to information And more and more answers to questions than ever before yeah at a certain point in time There's gonna be no bottleneck. Yeah, and we're gonna know everything about everything Yeah, so how is anyone in government gonna keep a secret?

How is any corruption ever gonna be possible? It's a certain point time all of it will get uncovered like it's much more difficult to commit murder now with DNA evidence, right? But back in the 1800s like I didn't see nothing. I wasn't there and then you're free like now you do your fingerprints now They get your DNA now.

There's flop cameras. There's like more and more and more and more. It's harder to get away with things Yeah, so it seems like to me like whatever they have whatever anybody has ultimately there's gonna come a point in time where there's so much data And you could run all your questions like there's an AI fact checker for politicians now Yeah, so while politicians giving a speech you can run an AI fact checker and in real time It will tell you whether or not these people are full shit This seems like the direction is there's not gonna be anybody full shit in the future because it's not gonna be possible Yeah, I mean the government still would have access to things that the human beings wouldn't have access to like regular people And particularly with defense related weapons related like for example When they did the venison is a villain thing. Mm-hmm I don't think people in Venezuela even understood like what even those weapons were probably we did Yeah, they were described as something the literal words used for like alien-like technology So we even we didn't know that the United States had access to that quality of defense technology until that it didn't happen So there are obviously gonna be secrets, right?

Especially the highest-case things I would say like building frontier AI models is similar to that of course as more more models are getting open source I think the knowledge is diffusing but still The true amount of details you need to actually train a really amazing frontier reasoning capability model is still not like widely diffused So I my things my my hypothesis that whatever is extremely high stakes will still not be widely diffused It's it'll at least there'll be enough structures in place to keep it secret forever not forever, but for a while for a while Yeah, that's the thing long-term short like things to get out and but it's like long-term is what I'm looking at like look When we're looking at history we're talking in these like when we're looking at all these different temples and all these different things We're talking about thousands and thousands years and thousands of your times man in between each individual one With our world we're talking about massive change in 200 years Yeah, like this country's 250 years old think about how kooky that is yeah That is a blink of an eye in history. Do we understand everything that happened in the United States? No exactly So there are still some details that are sure hidden from us like we don't fully understand everything right for now Yeah, but my question is as time goes on 250 years from now isn't even possible to keep any secrets from anybody and Is that a good thing it might be a good thing it sounds horrible to people because like oh my god What about privacy right but also what about lies yeah? No more lies like everyone's gonna know what you're thinking Everyone's gonna know everything people do all the time.

Yeah, I mean if you're a true surveillance state obviously there are no secrets right Except about the government so that's the problem Yeah Does it bottom neck with the government or does it get to a point where there you can't even have government secrets because as technology evolves and as human civilization evolves Secrets will be less and less not just necessary But secrets would be problematic because there'll be an impediment to knowledge the impediment to understanding the true the true scope of what the world is Like the true nature of all of our various moving parts Yeah, I mean as long as the human quality the intrinsic human quality of curiosity and truth seeking this It's just you know universal it's existed ever since we know human beings if that continues and that continues to be the case then People will have enough incentives to figure out the truth. Yeah, and if something is actually hard to get to it only motivates you more to actually go and find it For sure. So my question is where does this all go? You know and you obviously work in AI and when you think about AI and when you think about just technology in general and you extrapolate You just take it from here and you just plot it out Like what is a possible scenario of 250 years from now?

Like what does it even look like? What does the United States look like at 500 years old? It's very hard to know I'll be very honest. I think it's very hard to know even five years from now.

How it's gonna look like that's crazy Yeah, five years ago was like five years ago whoever is at the top most in AI I don't even consider myself like that but whoever is at the most frontier level of decision-making in AI five years ago I don't think they predicted the exact state we're in today Nobody did if they did they would have already procured all the compute and like, you know, manufacturer all the chips Brought all the fabs they've done all that right just this is counterfactual Everyone's like bottleneck by not having a compute and like we have we don't have enough chips We don't have enough power. These are all the problems that if you invite anybody in AI and ask what is the bottleneck in AI today? Everybody would say power. I think Jensen was here and he's the same thing, right?

Yeah, but Okay, like if you predicted this exact state five years before Wouldn't you have secured enough power and started building more power plans yourself and starting permits and like started like planning out capacity? No, nobody did that. Everything's reactive to the demand that we're having today. So that's just five years Yeah, that's just five years.

So when you ask me to predict 250 years like I just have to honestly say I don't know Do you ever sit back and think about it though? I don't think about it. I don't think about it So there are like a lot of fun. I use perplexity a lot for these kind of things Especially those new feature computer inside it and one one one one.

This is just for hypothetical scenarios Let's say there is an AGI right? I've seen you ask a lot of people about this and and a lot of Conventional answers is like oh, like we'll just become managers with the AI's don't worry but if the price of cognition is the price compute managing an AI is also Pretty much doable by the AI itself because the bottleneck is not like unique Cognition capability there so the value of the society will automatically shift to what is scarce and Fundamentally what has been scarce is like asking like high quality questions about things. Okay, like what if like we just completely spend all our time I'm just adding the past and that's an interesting and different was not cool before but it'll become cool again And like we usually usually view like archaeology or history is not something that's like worth having a career And because it doesn't pay well But what if it actually starts paying you go a lot more now that like actual knowledge works being on my eyes and they can All maintain and all the price of that is basically a zero right in archaeology would be one of the few things that it wouldn't have Access to because it doesn't have the actual ground They can't get into the ground and do the scans and let's say we have like robots to go do that But you're still gonna be the one probing right because you have incomplete information all the time even the idea for okay Let's go explore this particular area. Let's go understand better.

Let's go try to reverse engineer Let's go try to build this again How would it be if we wanted to do the same thing on the moon? They're like so many interesting projects to work on for us as long as we are we stay curious and we stay interested in like a lot of Things that we've done before and try to understand like civilization that I'm not really concerned about like what things we get to do We might be doing a lot more cool things for what it's worth Like I don't know if anybody would be like coming and selling you that oh, it's so cool to like open and excel sheet every day and make financial Models right compared to like there's got to be somebody out there that likes that I mean There's something about like the task you do and and what you get paid for like what is the job title blah blah blah and some people Associate their personal worth with like where they work at and how much they get paid and I think that that thing is gonna collapse in In a world where like the price of all their cognition is gonna be the price of compute What do you think happens to people if a large percentage of jobs get replaced by AI? I think they'll find new things we've always gravitated towards things that are scarce because that's where the value lies and so if if You know have you what one interesting analogy is? Have you the Gulf states where there's an abundance of resources and export their resources to other states and that pays for the whole state You know how like they offer everybody free electricity subsidized health so there's education and like no taxes when I first went to Dubai Like in almost like 20 years ago They told me that people don't pay taxes here and nobody pays for electricity here and education is like super cheap and I was like wait, how's that real and and and and the way that's real is that I mean of course Texas also has no taxes and you know any well-run state can do this but the way it's happening is that because the government provides you All these things it becomes a ronte state like you offer political acquiescence to the state and What ended up happening is citizens there expect the state to find them jobs Expected to take care of like good job distillation for them.

So they don't worry So it made them a little more lazy. So that's not a good future to have where some people talk about AI subsidies and AI dividends That get paid to everybody. I think we need to do some form of that but that that an entirety won't solve the problem right? Well the thing about Human nature is sort of undeniable and if you give people the ability to be lazy a large percentage of people will take that That's right large percentage won't though Yeah, there's gonna be enough people that are inspired to do something and they say okay Well now my basic needs are taken care of let me pursue my actual interests and find purpose in that Yeah, cuz that's a lot of people find purpose in whatever their occupation is Yeah And if we can shift that defining purpose in which your actual interests are yeah, and then really pursuing something whatever it is Yeah, and you'll still have meaning in your life.

We've just come in here. It keeps coming back to saying curious Yes, and finding value in your relationships your family Caring for each other if you ask a lot of retired people actually retired people is a good demographic to understand What would happen what are things people find meaning in after like work taken off them and all majority of the answers are always like family Caring you know personal like like relationships and community Like these are the things that retired people keep doing to like you know Keep themselves active and make everybody and have something to look for so all those things will become even more important at a time when like work itself Doesn't mean much mm-hmm doesn't mean humans won't be status-seeking I think we'll still be but status is not gonna come from whether you're working on you know a particular famous bank or a Take company or whatever it'll be driven by like how interesting you are are you interested to talk to me? I like despite that are you still interesting to talk to are there certain things I get out of talking to you that Completely change my perspective on like a bunch of things or is it just fun to hang around you? Can we have a compound relationship together and I think again it goes back to like you know being curious about things Well, this is best case scenario right worst case scenario is civilization upheaval chaos civil war and it's possible It's possible even without an AI right yeah, so we've gotten real close to it a couple of times Exactly yeah So and we did not need an AGI like scenario for a Civilization collapse in the past as a clearly seen right a calamity can just take out all of us Why about everything sure especially natural ones?

Yeah, that's why I'm not a big fan of everybody claiming that the AI is gonna you know kill us so like AGI is gonna destroy humanity and like it's too dangerous and we all need to stop doing This thing's but at the same time continuing to fill out the status and continuing to make money you have to have one's consistent position my position is that Whether AI or not I think being curious is gonna serve you really well I think it's gonna help you have a better life and there are two paths security one that can kill it and one that can supercharge it In my opinion the one that kills curiosity is algorithmic feeds like the the brain rot that you're fed every day But just you know this continuous doom scrolling that's bad And the one that can supercharge it is AI Okay, like now that you could just ask whatever you want everybody has like a pull it up Jamie for them You know right and that's amazing. So it's all you have to do is Be curious about a lot of different things and of course talking to people Engage and interesting activities together if money is no longer an issue you can fund passion projects yourself You don't have to like require garment funding or right venture funding Like what if you just wanted to build a mini cave yourself, okay? Like you find a piece of land somewhere. There's a lot of land in America Vay more than that we know what to do with it and and surely we can build a lot of interesting things there well That's a good glass half full Scenario and one of the things that I keep coming to is this whole idea of people working and making money and having careers and having portfolios Bank accounts on this is all very recent in human history.

Yeah, very recent very recent But we've become accustomed to this as a way of life and we Microsoft Microsoft built this concept of a knowledge worker Because they wanted to sell more office software really yeah Like this whole idea of putting a PC on every desk and making you like glue to the PC was there That was blue gets mission put a PC on every desk that fucking wizard. What a right incredible accomplishment because boy did they nail it? Yeah, so it was not about making computing like beautiful or anything in the way like steam jobs envisioned it right It was just a lot like beautiful sell more software sell more computers because that way you can sell more software And if you sell more software you become rich and the company this was a machine that was just you know Essentially a large sales machine is built a sale software and and and now they sell cloud But whatever that that's essentially the the reason that like you know We all got trained to use software people and the tutorials on how to use Excel how to use word how to use all these email tools And then now that became the upscaling you needed to go work at different companies and then record and like whatever Right, so that if that part's gonna be done by any I it's not necessarily a bad thing Because this is not actually the way you feel like real purpose and fulfillment in your own life If if you were never exposed to that whatever you had is the entrance a curiosity in you That's probably what you should be doing. Yeah, there could be a completely new way to live life Yeah, where we're not Dependent upon labor for basic needs and but then it's gonna be incumbent upon people They're gonna have to figure out a way to be either self-starting or we're gonna have to expose people to things They're gonna excite their curiosity and make that a mandate.

Yeah, it has to start from schools Yeah, and as long as we keep rewarding people for having answers and sort of asking interesting questions It's gonna be a difficult change like in schools. They're always rewarded for being smart based on whether you have answers like many different questions Who cares like all those 20 questions can be answered by us? Have you ever like flipped a script where you say okay? Like I'm gonna the smartest person the room is the one who has the most interesting questions.

Mm-hmm, okay What what kind of students can you cultivate based on that? Like imagine if the room had no pressure to always know the answer But the freedom to ask a lot of questions right because sometimes if someone asks a question it'll it does Make you pause and go I never even thought of that, but that's it like that's the question. Yeah, and it takes a I mean so many people have so many different perspectives Which is one of the more interesting things that I've experienced doing this podcast is I get to talk to so many different people and they very so widely There's so many different ways of looking at the world and so many different ways of engaging with the world and so many different things that people are fascinated with that They spent their entire life studying and pursuing is like you get this rich tapestry of the human experience That's just I would have never been exposed to this many people Yeah, and in turn I've been able to expose these people to all these other folks that are just listening and watching right now And it's fucking incredible and it's such a for me It's like the perfect job I've never had a job that more aligns with my own personality as much as this because I've always been that kid like shut the fuck up with all the questions I've always been like that's a system right? It's not your fault right like it's actually the reason you're successful now Is exact thing that people told you to shut up about in the past right?

Yeah, you know, hey, you know stop bothering my lecturer You know asking all these unrelated questions It's mainly a frustration of the teacher that they don't have the answers to you right or sure and and and Now that that bottleneck is gone we did this experiment with one one instructor at MIT who taught the introduction to biology class Where he came and told is that he's gonna give perplexity to all the kids all the students and they would use it as part of the lectures So instead of fighting AI you just give a I say everybody and let them ask whatever questions They want to they can actually use it in the exams too. So so how do you even design? questions for an exam In such a world is maybe you just encourage people to pose a question that AI can't answer right now and that becomes your research project And you turn everybody into a scientist Fundamentally like there's this belief that scientists have to go through a rigorous PhD and like you have to get you know Accredited by like an amazing university to be that sure but of anyone who's curious can be a scientist The only thing that's required to be a good scientist is intellectual humility to understand that you could be wrong about things things that Everyone takes for granted you could still question them and when you when you're presented with new evidence and new data You're willing to change your mind and you're willing to operate with ambiguity and uncertainty about the world That's that's basically all the qualities you need to be a scientist and you can run your experiments You can gather data you can gather evidence and you can consult people you can bring in experts and talk them in and as long as you're uncovering more and more About the world you are a scientist. You don't need a PhD to feel that you're allowed to be a scientist or not And I think that's the most important quality we need to inculcate in our kids the upcoming generation So that they all feel more liberated.

Okay, like finally I don't have to memorize this textbook or these lecture materials and like I don't have to feel bad if I get like 12 out of 20 Okay, who cares like he is always gonna get 20 out of 20? That's not what you're meant to be like good Of course master the foundations the basics great, but your job is to actually pose interesting questions Yeah, and the intellectual excuse me intellectual humility is so important because one of the things that was really weird about the whole COVID pandemic was that we weren't supposed to question science. Yeah, it was like that or when Fauci said if you question Anthony Fauci You are questioning science. That's because they try to assign credibility through their degrees.

Yes through their affiliations Yes, but not through the scientific method right anybody should be allowed to ask questions as long as they are open to new evidence Yeah, and that's the most important quality of scientists Well the scientific method alone I mean it's one of the most important things that we can use to try to figure out what's real And what's not real and as soon as someone says don't use it. Yeah, so don't question Well, wait a minute And then there was an actual government push to silence questioning and legitimate researchers were kicked off of Twitter because they didn't back the narrative Yeah, like this is all anti-science. This is not your questioning science. Well science demands questioning.

Yeah, so what it is Yeah, when you don't understand something the best thing you can do is ask all possible questions, right? And so curbing that is almost like a video saying look I'm gonna tell you what happened you need to believe in my book view and I'm not open to New perspectives. I wonder if anybody has used AI to try to map out Possible scenarios for where technology leads human civilization and what can be done to mitigate the problems and push it in the proper direction Like have a bunch of different models. Yeah of how this could play out.

Yeah, I mean I try to do that for fun, but I haven't done it in a serious enough way to have like a proper answer to that right but I think like you know a lot of things that we are doing today will not be considered needed or valuable And maybe a little bit of taking our own lessons from the past I don't know if you when you grew up as a student did you have to like be good at mental math like multiplying arbitrary numbers? Was that considered a science partner? So remembering people's whole numbers or something? Well, you had to because there's I mean you had little address books as we carry around like a little address book that I keep on my desk Yeah, it's a little tiny thing with everybody's number name That's the only way I knew people's numbers and then I remembered a bunch of them like all my friends I had all my friends.

I don't have any of my friends numbers remembered. Yeah, maybe my wife and my friend Eddie I have two numbers in my head, but but was there time and people thought somebody was smart base on how good their memory power was? Oh, yeah, definitely. Would you say that now?

Well, people are impressed if you know things now. Yeah, I have a bunch of like weird information Obviously that I've gathered through some of the years doing this podcast and just so many years of being curious, you know Like sometimes even my own daughter's like, how fuck do you know that? Like this is what I do like that's my thing Yeah, you know, I pay attention to stuff. Yeah, but yeah I mean memory itself is always very impressive and someone has an excellent memory.

Yeah, and can pull out facts of the past Yeah, we automatically equate that to intelligence. Yeah, I think it's impressive But it's not necessarily a science being intelligent right like I think it's just a look you have a very fast look at people in your Head that's great. It's very valuable But I still think like being smart is all about posting the most interesting questions Also the decisions that you make yeah, whether or not you self correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah all those things exactly So when you when you have an amplifier to intelligence like an AI all the time very lookups is essentially something you can delegate Reasoning for decision making is something you can delegate But posting the right questions to gather the right data and then forming your own judgment based on what it reasons and comes up with and finally Having the courage to make the decision that's still you that agency that intrinsic curiosity to ask the right question the scientific Intellectual humility to like you know gather new evidence always questioning your beliefs that that is still you and so I feel like that is essentially What would be considered smart in the ages to come if somebody's like a you know like a proxy scientist or whatever like no more?

Doesn't have to go to like my dear Harvard get a PhD to be a scientist or to be considered a scientist because all scientific literature is open and So accessible to everybody and you can you can even take a paper written by an expert and use an AI Understand it deeply ask a lot of questions and maybe even disprove what they claim to be true That's the whole peer review process right the peer review process is all about questioning somebody's paper and That's why like you know, whatever you said happened in Covid days is wrong like you should be allowed to ask questions about Even eminent scientists work. It's okay. Like if you're at home and you had the wrong questions sure You're gonna learn from that the it's worse than not being allowed to ask the question. Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see what the future Education looks like like how valuable are degrees when essentially AI is going to be able to do the majority of whatever work you need done on Right like how how good are they right now at just law like you could ask pretty pretty amazing Yeah, yeah, how good are they at mathematics perfect?

Like how good are they at coding way better than people? Yeah, and at a certain point time It's gonna be interesting to like what is education now is education just providing you with information because that information is readily available Yeah, or is education teaching you how to think yeah teaching you how to pursue your interests and be curious and have intellectual humility And understand what you don't know. I think that's where it should be I still think institutions will preserve their brand value because there is a certain aspect of education that's outside of learning This is just having access to other curious and intelligent people sure and unity Yeah, and brands attract good communities peer groups blah blah But the actual process of learning so has to change and and what your reward for has to change So fundamentally everything you know flows down is downstream of the incentive, right? So if the incentives score the highest on the exam based on answers, you're not really changing much If you need to change that process you need to think the process of what are your reward is doing like what is a plus or a right?

That's where we need to start it. Let's also that we talked about this the other day that the education system in this country was designed to make workers Exactly. That's what they did when they first started doing it. Yeah, the turn of the story.

I'm a designer on that. Yeah, well in India It's still the case by the way really even if you're a computer even if you go into a computer science degree I don't know if it's look at I shouldn't speak but at least when I was there and for many years after the first New Year's You just spent learning hardcore electrical and mechanical engineering you would learn like welding using late machines You would you would have to let go and like do workshops carpentry a lot of these things It was fun. I think there's be a lot of value in that so in hindsight I actually think it was fun to learn soldering and like how to like make circuits on redboards and But if somebody was just interested in some you know just writing code Let's say back then all this is kind of like pointless to learn but you have to go through it to be qualified as an engineer Hmm, so and and the reason the curriculum was designed that we as that's what the labor force was required back then to build like all the factories And like all these things so you had to learn mechanical engineering I to learn through mechanics But I think that's that should also change because if the way like you do work changes Then what you're trained for in college should also change and it's much harder to change these things You know people are much slower. They're scared to do changes disruptions always like look down upon and So I think we should let's at least start at the incentive structure Right from the schools right from the college is like let's not like reward people based on like how much they know Well, it seems like in the future when things do radically change and it seems like they're inevitable.

They're gonna radically change Universities and schools are gonna be rewarded for having Develop thinkers that are able to adapt to this new world. That's right. Yeah, so they're gonna have to figure out how to adjust the curriculum Yeah, because the tools are so spectacular now that just this idea of just memorizing information is it's not that's not what you're gonna Need yeah, get by in the future It's not and I guess like one proxy different schools use like maybe if more entrepreneurs arise out of your school You probably create a lot of independent thinkers Because they are like willing to take a first perspective towards the problem right and build their own thing from scratch and fundamentally America's always been about is you know some the American dream of coming here and like Having your own idea and still be taken seriously by a bunch of people the whole idea of venture capital in links this year Like a family and friends around this whole idea of just having a friend so beautiful strap of business and then turning into a success And success doesn't mean like multi-billion or 10 billion Whatever like as long as it pays you enough that you don't have to work for somebody else and you can live a fulfilling life And you can just go explore your passions. That's success That's actually a better success than creating company based on what other people want you to do and then hating a job for it Yeah, and having a yacht and being miserable every day That's why I said like not the smartest or the richest people are not always the ones who are the most fulfilling lives The most curious people have the most fulfilling lives because they have better relationships They're actually able to sit and look at something and you know be curious about it instead of like being worried about what's going on Well, what did the American dream?

What was it to you when you weren't in America? Like what is it like what is how is it discussed? well, to me like I always thought America is the only country where you can come here and Have an idea and people listen to you and and and encourage you to go pursue it The risk-seeking culture is just incredible here Everybody everybody else you kind of are like either explicitly or implicitly or forced to a different authority Okay, like go and ask the permission of this person go ask permission of that person or get their approval get their insider Sure, you can get there you can consult everybody out there But if you have a thought that challenges what they believe in this country still encourages you to let go Proceed with mm, and so yes, like when I came here obviously, you know, Google was the number one company that everybody wanted to work in But it's also the same country where it allows you as a new person to Start a new idea the challenge is one of the biggest companies in this one country and it actually wants it people actually want new ideas and And then you can consistently see that they're like always gonna be more and more new ideas and new companies to be created here And so that spirit of like questioning is is encouraged a lot here and it happens in academic research I started off as an academic even there a lot of ideas when I had it and I would share it with people You know people actually give you very honest feedback book things, but they don't stop you from working on anything And that's fantastic because that's very fresh. It's really berating and that's not anywhere else I would say it's not it's not in India.

It's a simplification to say it's not anywhere else, but It's not as encouraged. It's not as encouraged the incentive structures are not quite there and Ability to like be taken seriously for some crazy ideas is Why America is still at the top but it's crazy to me that if the American dream is so compelling and so many people come here for it Why doesn't the rest of the world sort of adopt those values? It's hard, you know, like it's a lot of it is cultural like America Was was born it was made from from like, you know a piece of land essentially, right? And a lot of ideas that we built here a lot of industries that we built here We're all like created here from nothing and that required you to like go take bold risks I think Jeff Bezos said this in some Podcast that where else would you like be able to go raise like a few million dollars for an idea that has like five to ten percent chance of working And then fail at it and still go and raise another few million dollars for your next idea No, but no girls people are willing to like people who get rich You're actually want to encourage and be part of somebody else's crazy journey because it's hard to pursue all crazy bets yourself Mm-hmm.

So it's an ecosystem and when something becomes an ecosystem. That's network effects So it's very hard to copy that elsewhere And so your value is measured in your curiosity and you're willing to work you're willing to work on whatever it is Yes, it is your pursuit Yes, and then eventually adjusting and learning and catching fire with one of them great and you have to work hard like you know I'm a big believer in intense hard work. I think nothing great can be accomplished by being soft And so all this like recent push for you know having a lot of work life balance Listen that sure if you have work life back if that's what you want and I think there are certain jobs I will give you that but when you're trying to do something from scratch and you're trying to create something from nothing It's not meant to be easy Right there are some sacrifices that have to be made and you're signing up to be part of that experience that that that's a real Jory you get from doing something that's felt almost impossible to achieve and and you're not doing you're not like staying up later Waking up early because you're getting paid more maybe you might not get anything Maybe this whole thing goes to nothing but that that experience you're getting of being part of something that feels very hard to achieve Is what you're signing up for to be part of yeah, and if you're not find something else it's fine Exactly and the country has enough jobs provide for all kinds of like needs right and everybody goes to different faces in the life Sometimes they feel a little lazy or like disillusioned okay, and so what I like about this country is that there's a lot of curious people here There's a lot of like so many different people, you know Like whether they use it as an audio is they're all like finding meaning and like so many interesting projects Well, obviously I don't know any other country really because I was born here But the people that do talk to me about what the American dream is like from another country They're the most passionate and the most supportive of this this idea this experiment self-government and this the Just the whole idea that the country operates on that anybody can chase their dream Yeah, you can if you have a dream and you're willing to work hard you could actually do it in this country That's right. Yeah, that's you know It's most the people that are most passionate about that idea oftentimes people that come from somewhere else where that wasn't available And it's not just like you know people coming from one particular country another It's the attitude.

It's the the way the system works and rewards you like be bold and take bets against established players It's okay, right? It's okay to like be an upstart a challenger and people love that like underdog And I think you know that's fantastic like and that culture is continuing yes They're all like multi-trillion companies here, and they're all gonna become even bigger, but people still want the Young angry person to also be successful. Yeah, well, they love disruptors Yeah, and people love underdogs in this country. Yeah, it's universal It's not specific to technology right like I'm sure everybody will love hundred dog story that wants to go against like Coca-Cola or Pips you or something sure yeah, oh in sports.

It's our favorite sports Yeah, we don't like when the guy who's supposed to win wins Yeah, love when the guy who's not exactly when triumphs. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't story Yeah, that's a very uniquely American story To me that's what this this is this country's means sure there's a lot of sickles and challenges It's just like every other country there are things here that are challenging, but it's one thing that has consistently stayed true One of the big fears that people in America have about technology in particular is that without Being aware that this was going to take place everybody gave up their data Everybody gave up their data and didn't recognize it was a commodity that in turn made these corporations immensely wealthy and powerful and then They have the ability to shape narratives and that concerns people because using their ideological position as leverage to try to push that through Technology that has immense control and influence over people and that we didn't see technology and corporations is having that much control over How society views itself and how we interact with each other and there's a real real concern that these companies got so big and upset Like there's a guy named Robert Epstein who's done a lot of work on Narrated or curated search engine results. Yeah, how much that can have you read seen any of his stuff?

I think I've seen this Yeah, how much that can affect elections? Yeah, how much that can affect people's perceptions on any societal issue that's coming up Yeah, and it's concerning it really is because they do curates search results It's not simply you know, you just run it out there and you get this is the data No, you know, you know if you look for specific political figures depending upon where they fall in the right or left spectrum and depending upon which way the company forms the corporation forms Falls rather you'll get different results and that sucks. Yeah, that's very concerning that people Don't recognize they don't they don't have the ability to see how that is dangerous for all of society Yeah, to have that kind of power and wield it in that way where you're not being honest about accurate objective information You're pushing particular ideologies. Yeah, so I think it's kind of like This is almost an effect of the asymmetry that exists between the amount of AI power that centralized systems and centralized companies have an Amount of AI power as you as a sovereign individual has so when you don't have the ais to just go judge for yourself Like what you should be reading and fed you're obviously like under the influence of what?

You know, whatever big that company is controlling information for but when you have access to all those ais You can actually just customize what you want to see by telling the AI like hey This is what I think you should actually question and tell me until now you never had that power for yourself You're finally getting it right and eventually we'll be able to have our own LLM It's like our own models that we would be able to post in our own hardware We don't have to rely on like one centralized model given to us by like any specific model company and Using that you can shape it to your your beliefs your custom your custom data and So when you're consuming search result you can actually ask that AI that you control and you run so nobody can shut off access to it To tell you like hey like can you actually like give me a contrarian perspective on this Or like can you tell me if these search results are actually biased? So I think we need to give individuals more sovereignty with more access to their own AI's that they own and run on a piece of hardware They own themselves and this is the whole like this is gonna be reading the whole rise of local ais So as AI models like today they're very power inefficient They're running on large data centers But in a year or two from now whatever capability that exists in the most power hungry data centers will be you'll be possible to run it in some Box that you own you know, yeah, it's already happening It's already happening that like there are like interesting hardware projects like the Apple Mac mini and Beady at eGX Where you can actually host a reasonable size model and put it in a box and have it run And you don't have to pay for all the tokens it produces you you just have to plug it into your power car and works I know Duncan my friend Duncan trust only does that yeah, and today the capability of that model that can run locally It's not quite there so you still prefer to use something that runs from the data center But eventually this is gonna be a spectrum that's gonna be some percentage of tasks that you would start delegating to this local system It'll be a hybrid model and over time it could end up being the case that you could buy something that feels like a refrigerator for your home which is your own AI box and Host a model that you control so nobody can arbitrarily shut off access to it one day And then you can you can have that be your weapon against what the big deck ones you to be fed or believe in Mmm, so this is the only way you can fight this because they have far more computing power far more data far more algorithms than you so the only way you can fight that is you have something you own yourself and With the rise of open source models open source LMS you can just and and and and progress in local hardware and And both Apple and video and deler all doing amazing work here You could potentially change the future and give people more power and this may not be as expensive as people think Well, that's a good solution because I've always wondered like is are these searches like using Google? Is that going to be irrelevant one day because you already could just ask your phone like I Most of the time if I want to have an answer for something I just ask perplexity is like what is it? Yeah, instead of like having to sift through all these Google searches Yeah, and try to figure out what it's showing me first and get to page three where it's what I really want to know Yeah, I can get the accurate information then follow up questions or instantaneous Yeah, and and even the models that are running the perplexity app today.

They're all in the cloud Eventually you'll be able to do that on a box if you want you can still you can still use the front end the UI of the app But you can control the computer that runs on on a piece of hardware. You may ask why why do we care? Okay, like what if some someday like the data center gets taken off like Iran was bombing data centers, right? Like what is someday like the government decides that model is no longer available?

You want some control over like like what models you can run and like you can you even want to shape it to like your context that you Never want to be living on any data center. Mm And and and I think that's where I believe the individual gets more sovereignty against big tech and that's how like we fight surveillance or like centralization of power. Yeah, and certainly pushing narratives What do you think happens with social media because social media and as you were talking about before algorithms like that? It's one of the biggest problems in terms of the way people view the world.

Yeah, I'm curious what you think like, you know Like my opinion is that it's not good for the kids Cereal for them. Yeah, but I think they should have some exposure to it because I think it's good to know that it's a thing I think children are fairly resilient and they learn but the anxiety levels of kids is much higher than ever before yeah suicidal ideations higher Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a little I my belief is that When you're just fed of feed and and the algorithm of the social media company decides what you're gonna see next it curbs your curiosity And I don't I don't think things that curb human curiosity should be encouraged Yeah, I agree and so if the app is designing a way where it asks you what you're interested in and helps you to come up and Find things that are very related to what you're interested in right that's awesome But that's not how it works. It's literally like it starts with something you start doing scrolling and then start showing you what you just Scroll and then you end up in an echo chamber and that's not that's not it's really good. Well, you can get trapped Yeah, I'm in a trap of skits of phrenics lately on Instagram It's just mostly skits of phrenics like people that tell me that the rightful president of the United States and like the Tell the guy's and showered in days and you know And if you have a phone you can create an account Yeah, you just start uploading nonsense and then for whatever reason I've watched a couple of them So now they just keep showing it to me and so I'm a slob right now Yeah, a lot of AI slob is not even clear and it's not labeled also clearly But it's been made with AI or not so often so essentially it's leading to a complete laws and in trust where when I see something I don't even know if it's real anymore, right and it's gonna get worse Yeah, it's gonna get worse to the extent that you're gonna like your default would be that this is AI And then like you're gonna have to go through multiple years to finally verify if it was real and Even like verified accounts post a lot of AI stuff So it's not it's not about like whether the account is verified by meta or something or whatever right so I think Fundamentally, I feel like okay.

The way I think about it is water pieces of technology if did not exist Would would be a really bad thing for the world and what are piece of technology? Did not exist wouldn't even matter and I feel like social media is more towards the second. Yeah, like you know Searching for information and answering questions and like getting you know, a ice to like do things for you Hope you learn new things faster all that stuff is some we need more of that but because it's super charges are curiosity Whereas like brain rot feeds with AI slob doesn't actually super charge of curiosity. It actually curbs our curiosity And so if we believe that if you believe in the curiosity premium idea We need to encourage things that super charge of curiosity and discourage things that curb our curiosity Do you anticipate a time where we recognize the dangers of algorithms and there is some discussion to either curb them or allow people to have control over Them in a real meaningful way like you could dictate maybe through AI Yeah, there's an AI interface to your algorithm that understands your particular emotional needs your curiosity like only show me this Yeah, this is what I'm interested carpentry and basketball games.

Yeah, show me those things. Yeah, I don't want to see who's getting divorced I don't give a fuck about this. Yeah. Yeah, so here's the thing you can still customize on most of these social apps You know if you'll be deeply buried somewhere in the setting somewhere and you can go and say stuff But the reason it's buried is because once you you you always have to say it or like it's the starting entry point for your experience There your engagement time would go down because once you consume the content that you really want you would go back to your work Which is what you really need to be doing but that doesn't help them sell more ads, right?

And so it is incentives are not aligned and so Elon has this really good metric he talks about where it's like a total amount of Undergraded minutes spent on the app should go up mmm. It's hard to measure. It's hard to measure It's more like a in spirit the right metric But this metric is also why it's hard to make money on ads if you care about this metric This is why X doesn't really make a lot of money on ads compared to you know Instagram or YouTube right because You're kind of like optimizing for interestingness like doesn't mean X has everything right? There's a lot of chaos a lot of memes a lot of like We are going on there as well, but in general social media is not necessarily like great for people I think it's terrible for people, but it also provides you with a way better understanding of what's going on in the world Yeah, has ever existed before X particularly X particularly because it's a place where like discourse It's a text based app more than a video based app, right?

so Naturally like people can engage in discussions and debates and you know There's a lot of curious debates going on there and a lot of interesting viewpoints expressed by people So I think in terms of the ungraded minutes It's actually one of the better social media apps, but apps that are purely based on like video or images Largely video these days. I think that's just you know just trying to get your eyeballs in time Yeah, those are the mind numbers. Yeah, they just numb your mind. I mean depressing You know metronians is see people just scrolling through their feet.

Nobody everybody doing it. You look the entire car Everyone's doing it. It's just insane. Yeah, it's weird Yeah, I always say that if there was a drug that existed maybe it'll stare at their hand for six hours a day Everybody really get that out of here.

Yeah, but that's essentially what we're doing Because like most of what people are looking at most of the time. They don't even remember. Yeah They're just scrolling through this thing brain rot is green rock. It's a curiosity.

I mean Apple has these settings in different apps Have you tried this where you can set the timer for every app? No, I just use discipline I don't I don't engage very much anymore a very I dip my toe into X every day for a few seconds Like what's everybody mad at what's going on who stole this who how much corruptions here who got killed there? Okay, bye, and then I just check out I don't want to do it and Instagram to me is just nonsense It's I just look at that every now and then for nonsense and occasionally something interesting really YouTube is my main go-to thing Yeah, because YouTube is my most un regretted minutes. Yeah, YouTube for me is always interesting There's always like some cool thing on cosmology.

There's some I watch fights on YouTube. I watch professional pool matches That's what I do for the most part. I that's where I really like find my actual interest in yeah fulfill my curiosity long form content Is what human mind should be trained to consume more of whether it's books or it's like, you know, yeah, 30 minute videos explaining something Mm-hmm, and you need to train your mind to actually complete it That's actually the biggest problem of the younger generation of more They're the reels experience short from video. They're unable to actually like complete like long videos anymore That's true, but also at the same time the rise of podcasts is happening.

Yeah, it's great. It's great So there's it's not it's not universal. It's like there's a lot of people that don't find fulfillment in all the dooms Yeah, they really do want yeah, I'm particularly just focused on the younger generation I'm sure like people like us can adapt to like okay Let's say maybe have a temporary addiction to social apps And we can but a lot of the young people are the people like I meet kids like at the mall that are 11 that listen to my podcast Really? Yeah, wow, I know it's nuts.

They go I know if your podcast. I'm like, oh, let's you listen No, I'm always joking about it's really cool But no, there's a lot of like particularly young boys that come to me all the time that are interested in it That's amazing. I love it I love it because then they're gonna get exposed some interesting ideas and yeah It'll also encourage them to have those kind of conversations with each other right yeah Who's who's podcast do you listen to I love Tim Dillens? He's probably my favorite because it's the most accurate and also satirical and hilarious view on everything that's going on in the world in Terms of like war and world news and culture shit and he's my favorite.

He was just on here yesterday I fucking love that guy to death. He's so funny. He's so crazy It's like his mind works in such a unique way and it's developed because his podcast is different where he very rarely has guests So most of the time is just him ranting and his producer laughing and he's the best renter that's ever lived I don't think there's anybody that's even close. He's the goat like there's like I don't think there's any argument every comedian agrees Like as far as like just the ability to just sit in front of a microphone and rant like Bill Burr does it well He's good at it.

Does it feel like I said a good at it. No one's as good as this Tim He's the most consistently entertaining and then for just mind not mindless But like to escape I listen to a lot of archery shows and hunting shows You're talking about different tactics and hunting or different techniques and archery new equipment and new innovations Archery is an interesting thing because every year bow manufacturers make a better bow and like tiny little Engineering changes of these bows like it's a weapon that's been around for not so many thousands of years But what the you're able to feel those oh, yeah, I feel the difference every year Hoi puts puts out a new bow and every year. I'm like motherfucker. They did it again.

It's better So just tiny changes less vibrations in the hand more balance in the shot, you know more forgiving in terms of accuracy I love that stuff. So I get really fascinated by engineering really fascinated by automotive engineering. I'm really interested in like That's another thing where like every year people figure out how to make a car that can hold more G's on a skid pad That can get around the track quicker like every year They're battling to see who can get around the nirbergreen quicker And what are they doing they're adding horsepower increasing suspension travel and and suspension tuning rather and making them more compliant or making them stiffer? And making them more adjustable and then like tire compounds And I'm just interested in anything that where someone's working on something and getting better at something or getting new information I love history podcasts.

I was doing a bunch of history podcasts So that's most of the time when I'm if I'm listening to something I either want to be entertained or want to be educated educational Yeah, yeah, and that's entertaining. Yeah, what about you? What kind of stuff do you listen to? I listen to your stuff I listen to Lex.

This is guy. You know, you might you had him on the career group and of course sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah He's awesome. I listen to his stuff and I mean, I also watch like some interesting videos about you know stuck concepts.

I don't understand there is this YouTube channel very Tushyam. You should check it out. What is it called? Very Tushyam?

Spell that V E R I T A S E U M. What does it mean? I think this one's name. No very tuss.

This means like seeking truth kind of thing. Oh Yeah, yeah, yeah Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah A lot of people agree so they make all these very interesting videos about like stuff that you know You would be curious about but you never actually bothered to ask that or learn more about and explain some of the most Under-understood companies or like phenomena and I just love watching it. You know, I'm this is kind of like my idea of doing scrolling Like I like I like watching like 20 videos at once. Yeah, I'm going to subscribe to it right now.

It's pretty cool Very tuss yum. There it is got it subscribed bam And explains all these like fun concepts that are you know, you take it for granted like, okay, why is Google Maps really fast? It'll tell you what's going on how the data is used across so many different people at once and all these different C I A's new tech doesn't make sense exactly We were just talking about that yesterday. We were doubting it.

You know the heart murmur thing. You know about that No, so the pilots that were downed in uh, Iran They said that they have this technology that allows them I think they could use it up to 70 miles and they could detect a very unique heart rate Like your heart rate is different than my heart rate they can know it's you You could be hiding in the mountains and they can find you from 70 miles away with technology Wow Beams or waves or something. Well, it's called what is it called quantum magdotometry? Is that what they call it?

I think that's what it was remember. We looked at up yesterday They're using the word quantum and not explaining what they're doing like how they're doing it and you're like, okay Is that real or is this some invented horseshit to cover the fact that they have some very sophisticated satellite imagery Where they can have a detailed map of literally the entire surface of the world They know exactly where people are but they don't want our enemies to know that they have this capability So they're making up something I see that was my suggestion yesterday They're like maybe they're full shit because the whole thing seems nuts. What is it called? It's quantum magdotometry.

Sure. It was I mean you tell them how I don't know exactly Yeah, so this guy he's saying it doesn't make sense Yeah, and a lot of people say it doesn't make sense like it doesn't seem to vibe with anything that we know that we know that We can do a magnetometry. Yeah, first time hearing it See the pull up the decrypt this description the official description of what the stuff is capable of So this is supposedly some very advanced CIA attack that allowed them to locate this down pilot Interesting Maybe or maybe there's something else going on or maybe there's some of the methods that they use They don't want the enemy to know about maybe some beacon these guys have on them Yeah, I guess what's the incentive for CIA to actually describe how the technology works? Yeah, zero.

Yeah, why would they tell you that? Yeah, why would they tell you they even have that? That's crazy. Yeah, and then Jamie had a good point The capabilities insane detecting your heart rate 70 miles away is this how insane?

Yeah, how and when they throw the word quantum and things I was wrong It would happen with that White House announcement. Sorry. Keep Yeah, the member there's Q news coming soon and then Investment Q sounds for quantum. Oh, is that what it is?

I thought they just announced a bunch of investments and a bunch of quantum companies. Maybe that's it. Yeah, IBM was getting some funding or whatever So this quantum magnetometry. Can you pull up a description of what it is?

Sorry? I was asking you to with a question at the same time quantum sensor help rescuers. Yeah, so this is it ghost mama Yes, that's what it's called purported surveillance technology utilizes long-range quantum magnetometry What is that? Quantam magnetometers measure extremely faint magnetic fields including the body's natural magnetic signals by tracking changes in the energy states of atoms or subatomic particles What?

Technology reportedly uses microscopic defects and synthetic diamonds when illuminated by a laser these centers are hypersensitive to tiny magnetic Fluctuations the heart signal while human heart beats produce a magnetic field is extremely weak around 50 to 100 picoteslas and Typically degrades over very short distances. So the ghost member deployment They reportedly use ghost member during a mission in southern Iran to pinpoint the location of a down-American airman using hiding rather Indense mountainous terrain by mounting these quantum sensors into a helicopter the system purportedly registered the pilot's heartbeat from afar Okay, does that sound like worship? I mean not it doesn't sound full shit But like basically at the part that sounds surprising to me is how they're able to deal with all this like distance and attenuation across Citizens right and all this interference and they claim to use AI for that But nothing is really describing how they use it right so if they're not describing how they use it why they've been telling us they have it Why so like there's a lot of systems. Yeah laws of physics physicists point out that the heart's magnetic field is a million times weaker than the earth's Detecting it at a range of miles rather than centimeters defies currently published peer-reviewed physics alternative explanations suspect that while quantum sensors were likely on board they're probably tracking the radio waves of a survival beacon the metal in the pirate pilots equipment or using traditional thermal Infrared and radar capabilities rather than detecting raw heartbeat via magnetic fields I do remember seeing a different part of a when that story happened back in April someone did report on like one of the military websites That there was a survival beacon that they used to track them Yeah, yeah, I saw that yeah, no one wants to report that because it's not fun right no the ghost armor thing is awesome fun And if that is real like boy, you can imagine a world a hundred years from now that is real.

So it's exciting Oh, yeah, a hundred years is a long time for the studio. Yeah, a hundred years. I probably got it down pat then that's the problem You can't hide from the robot dogs from black mirror. Yeah Yeah, do you ever while you're working in a do you ever wonder like is this the downfall of humanity?

Is this a good thing to be working on? Did you ever have like two moments? Not on specific things I'm working on but in general I do worry about like how much you know You obviously want to like stay in charge and you know be in control of your experience Still be the one driving change and have a lot of agency for yourself So I do worry that like it's all about like making sure everybody's upscaled and understanding like where the future is headed and not being like Fed only like dangerous apocalyptic messages and because it's very essential that human beings retain their agency and staying curious right Like so if that stops being the case if you start subscribing to the vision that okay jobs are done You don't really have any meaning the world and you pay you some dividends and you just sit at home and show That is that is not a good thing So and I feel like they're not in a voice is in a either actually saying anything different to that and I liked like when Jensen was here I think he was a little different. I think he tried to give a more positive Version where he said okay like the radiologist thing if okay already I'll just take it You know they start doing different kind of work So I think we need to start looking at like okay like okay first of all guys relax You have a lot of you have one premium skill your curiosity So let's figure out ways to channelize that let's change the way work is done in companies Let's change the way educational institutions run let's change the incentive structures and let's help you build new ideas and new companies and Explore things that are not even being considered and the garment should obviously like you know support all these initiatives So that's what it needs to happen more but what's happening actually right now is Okay, like hey guys, you're all losers.

You're gonna lose your jobs and don't blame me because I'm totally so right and And and still give us money because we're still gonna do it anyway And so that's what's happening more and I think we should stop doing that that's my opinion Well, it is the problem is it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy if you tell people that they're gonna be a loser and you know Yeah, yeah, yeah Giving them an understanding of like look this can open up new doors for you Yeah, and anytime design sort of disruptive technology. There's always the fear that it's going to go badly Yeah, this was the case with the local motive. This was the case with the When the printing press was invented. Yeah, but wait, I did some research on this where An industrial revolution happened people got new ideas.

Okay, like for example, when the industrial revolution happened Who came with the idea of a steel plow John Deere until then we were using wooden plows to like for farming No farmer complained that hey like we need fewer farmers not because steel plows able to do it more effectively No one complain you actually had more farms and more productivity more crop yields and you're happier But isn't that just a regular tool and supposed to AI sure AI is different. It's not overnight going to become something That's capable of just running an entire multi trillion dollar company on its own There are a lot of things that ais cannot do there's a lot of tacit knowledge in every company that ais don't quite understand And there's a lot of new directions that you can just start working on That ais are not what they could do because it doesn't have full knowledge about it And the knowledge about it is yet to be captured and some of that requires like human to human work and collaboration So we obviously have to gravitate towards what is cares when AI makes the current labor That's considered scarce because that's where the money is going in the commodity Then we have to gravitate towards what is cares and the only way to do that is to seek things that we don't know about Which is only something we can discover through our curiosity. There's nothing else Whatever we don't quite understand well, whatever we don't know how to do well yet even with the current capabilities of AI Uh, that's where we should pull our labor and workforce into so it needs more responsible messaging And that's not quite happening right now I think it needs responsible messaging and then in the future what it needs is like real Direction in terms of like letting people find their curiosity and find these paths of interest and find something to do with themselves That doesn't involve whatever their previous occupation. That's irrelevant now That's true I think like passion for people is something that not a lot of people will be able to answer out of the out of the box If you go and ask them what is your real passion and and the only thing they've known in life is to just climb up career ladders and make money That's going to actually take them a while to even discover Right and uh, which is why it's so important to get kids off on the right star Yeah, that's that's the hope that's that's our hope for the future is the kids the kids are bond curious They don't need to change themselves to be curious.

Right the adults who probably already are like because of this knowledge working Um, who kind of curved their curiosity and tried to fit into the existing system It might be a little hard for them to adapt but the kids I think they don't have this problem So i'm actually optimistic about the future long term because the future is all centered around like whoever is like very young today What do you think about this idea that the universal basic income is going to be required? Some form of it is good Some it's like a dividend. I almost think of it as a dividend If a lot of spend that most companies are currently doing today on like payroll Which is paying a knowledge worker for a certain task think of knowledge work is basically taking information and transforming it into an artifact Right, and it's messy and complicated. Let's assume that's being done by ais So obviously companies will start spending more on compute instead of payroll It's just a reallocation of like spend a budget similar to like what happened in advertising industries where most of advertising budgets Went to like television and like billboards and then now it's starting to go to google and instagram and youtube and all that so When that happens, um, obviously like the i company is going to make a lot of money And uh people who helped be part of creating it or either directly or indirectly would want to have some role to play in that Ecosystem and a good way to involve them is through giving them some ownership in the company So as shareholders if you get dividends from the profits generated by the ais It's not a bad thing, but that's that shouldn't be the only thing Right.

So this is similar to like people living in Alaska to get a check because correct Alaska Alaska Alaska does this and it's not a bad thing As long as they are doing some other things right alongside it could lessen the burden correct Yeah, and and if people are interested in still being part of the ais industries They go do things that ais are not able to do today And that's that's been the case before like when industrial revolution started Uh, the the united kingdom actually started like like like projects around building railroads And that gave a lot of people who are in the cottage industries new jobs So there are going to be a lot of new projects to just look like what if we want to reimagine the government itself where the government runs largely on ai Yeah, that was my next question. Yeah, so then we need people for that. Yeah, because this is a legacy industry It's not it's not about the capabilities not being there It's about working through the legacy and bureaucracy to like actually deploy and implement this inside the most like largest institutions in the country And that's going to need a new set of skilled workers to go do that So some people who might be working at microsoft or something today might actually end up working for the united states government Because uh microsoft may not need them especially for like, you know, internally deploying AI or selling AI to their customers But the government needs them and and if the government can pay them well and it's a fulfilling job to find some meaning for like doing something good for the country It's not a bad thing So I I think like just like in the industrial revolution where we had new projects because the demand for AI was so big We're going to start seeing some new projects being created in AI as well when the capabilities advanced enough to taking replace knowledge workers That's the rosy scenario It's not as rosy like real world is messy a lot of things are still done through trusting other human beings Nobody's like blindly trusting AI say I still make a lot of mistakes Now a lot of people are hesitant to the idea of AI running government and I get it But also look at what the people are doing Look at how much corruption there is how much fraud and waste imagine if all fraud waste and corruption was instantaneous Yeah, I mean that was what he'll try to do with doge right and I think the bottleneck there was just discovering how slow it is to do things It's not he's not used to running that slow. Yeah, and also how much resistance.

Yeah, this is so much grief. Correct. Yeah, so Honestly, like more than AI the government is running on a lot of legacy software stack because a lot of these legacy enterprise companies Just have created these multi decade or like your contracts that are hard to get out of And the way they do that is to sell it at a much larger discount And again, like if you're on like a specific OS, you're not allowed to change this for like 10 years You have to use the same sort of software all this people you hired only know to use that tool So it takes time to actually change and implement new things leave alone AI Just if you just wanted to like move everybody from windows machines to like mac machines Good luck with that. It's going to take a lot of time.

That's the state of the System and so that has nothing to do with technology and so to do things in such messy systems. You still need people Still need people to navigate all these changes It's not about the capability of technology. It's more about how the system structured And that's why I still feel there'll be new jobs That maybe you know, there's a lot of new projects to be done Maybe some good leader actually wants to change the system and is willing to be patient about it Like you know, we're five to ten years horizon If you take ten years to actually like run majority of the government processes on AI's It may seem slow to you today, but in the grand scheme of things that's actually good for the country And that's still gonna need a lot of nice engineers to go work on these projects So they're not gonna lose all their jobs. There's gonna be some displacement.

There's gonna be some new projects New priorities, but it'll keep going the system will keep going because that's just how historically things have been When you think about the future of AI and you think of this So what do you think about AGI in particular? You think about something that could potentially make better versions of itself self-replicating Yeah, and then how far does it go like yeah, so that is the uh, that is the ultimate form of I think some people in Silicon Valley have started calling that as I So when you see the word asi being torn around like people kind of think of asi as an AGI that can recursively self improve itself So that's gonna be on that's gonna be no limits to how smart it can get right and I used to think that asi is bottlenecked by power because you need a ton of compute for this model to keep on training itself and running its own rollouts and collecting data and then Going updating itself, but you could imagine that once the algorithm is correct The asi could be tasked with just making itself more efficient to where improvement doesn't just mean capability improvement improvement could also mean power efficiency And that way the as recursive safe asi that is improving itself also makes itself more compact and more efficient and it can run on less computers So that would be the ultimate project in AI think of it as almost as the last project in AI is basically cracking recursive self-improvement once you crack that you don't have anything else to work on Um in practice. I think what's going to happen is Because information is so muddled and fragmented and living in disjoint systems. Just the way we have constructed our messy real world It's going to be hard to point even a recursively self improving AI at some metric and say go improve this or go reduce inflation by 5% That'll be awesome If you can task in AI to do that if that's the job of the government to just reduce inflation have a deflationary effect on society and make Make goods and services a lot more abundant and efficient It's going to have to deal with a lot of messy legacy systems if the task is to go improve the health care for good luck like Who's going to deal with all the compliance of actually?

Implementing these changes inside hospitals most hospitals are still using legacy software because that's the software provider has lobbied the government in a way Where only they're allowed to do that? Stupid bottleneck exactly so a lot of the bottlenecks in actually having a eyes just take over and massively improve the human society and Our hospitals our legal systems our government systems where most of the payrolls going into Is this bottling by a lot of compliance and regulation and so that's why I feel The human beings are still necessary to effect the change Because these laws and regulations were built for us And also seems like we have to demand that those systems be usurped sure 100% and we need the help of AI to rewrite all these laws It's going to be humanly impossible to go and change One specific line here and there right and then you can have a bunch of these software companies that are lobbying to stop that from happening and It's that's why like this messiness And this need for getting all people on the same page and actually steering the society in a positive way Our jobs will probably be more seared towards that problem solving at a different level of abstraction Maybe more need for EQ more need for actually like understanding differences of opinion and still like a leadership quality Ability to understand people and ability to convince people These these are the skills that and it will be even more important in the world where like actual work can be done by ais But affecting the change in our society in our country still needs human beings because the systems are messy It's a weird world we're in right now. Yeah, it's never been weird That said there's a lot of things that that can still go wrong when you give power so much power to You know like specific companies and they deploy all these bots and then Anybody can use them in weird ways. You don't even know if like you're talking to a real person anymore Right.

They're like people who just run AI responses and chat with like 500 people at once and that's like the whole business And so um, I think it's gonna it's gonna take a lot of adjustment Well, another piece of adjustment that a lot of people are coming to grips with is that this is a new part of our conversation and that In 2020 like when I first moved here. Hey, I was never discussed. Yeah, it was not thing Yeah, I mean we knew about it. We knew about AI Yeah, but it wasn't like it wasn't a huge part of the cultural discussion of what the future holds for us Now it is now it is central.

Yeah, and in that short amount of time in just six years Yeah, it really makes you wonder because we know how technology progresses exponentially what it's gonna look like six years from now Yeah, the 2028 like like you're definitely my predictions 28 election debates are gonna be large about AI. Wow Yeah, AI energy crisis power power People are gonna care about all these things Because AI is no longer a thing that is new. It's part of our lives everyone's using some form of AI in some ways and It's not as dangerous as people thought it's an amazing tool for like doing work and asking questions and learning things and all these things when you Correctly. Yeah, yeah, it can also be using correctly Like everything like everything so it's far more powerful that incorrect usage can cause serious damage Like like for example people kids were using AI's for like companionship Right crazy things are happening there.

Yeah, it's even it's as dangerous as or probably more dangerous in social media And uh, it's also scary that social media companies want to build more of these kind of like companionship apps Because they know that okay They're only jobs to get you engage more and that's the only way to sell more ads and make more money And clearly companionship is a way to get you engage more. Yeah, and so that's dangerous if ads start being part of like AI chats Yeah, because then if that ends up working then all these ad chat bosses is gonna be sick of it's that just Tell you stuff that you you want to hear it's also it's an indistinguishable indistinguishable Faximally to a real person like they communicate like a real person right so you really think you have a relationship with this right and and and it truly Screws with your mind. It's hard to like decouple and like it takes a lot of time to recover if you want to like You know unplug and so the business model incentives are not a line to humanity Did you see that um AI companion that they developed that was at the consumer electronics show in Vegas this year Which one it's like a hot Asian lady. I see yeah, these are these are the weird kind of projects that are going on Yeah, it's a hot Asian lady that talks to you.

Yeah, and you know she talks to you through AI And right now it's just a kind of a crude sort of robot, but yeah, you can see where it's going You can see where it's going x machina. Yeah, it's going yeah right there. Yeah. Yeah, that movie was amazing quite far ahead of its time Really?

Yeah, that was one of my top 10 favorite movies of all time It's underrated actually because people like reviews online say it's not as good, but I liked it. I loved it Yeah, I thought it was fantastic. I like it better than her. Yeah her.

I lost her after a while. I shut it off I lost my attention. I'm sure it's good. It was a wrong time for me to watch it But x machina like five times.

I fucking love that movie. Yeah, it's just so I don't want to give anything away But it's so incredible and so bleak and so yeah in the relationship that he has with the hot one. Yeah, you believe it You like I I'd be right there with him. Yeah, it's too confusing to our system to have something that looks exactly like the thing that you desire That is actually interested in you it just happens to be yeah knows too much about you knows how to pull your strings.

Yeah, yeah Listen man very fast and discussion. Yeah, I'm glad we did it. Thank you guys. Thank you so much And thanks for having an awesome platform.

Parkox has been great. We really loved using it here at the show. It's made the show more interesting Thank you. It's very fulfilling because like we we want the app to be used by curious people like that Like if we want to lift the ceiling of what our population can be, you know Not everyone is like fully curious all the time, but we're all born with it So at some point in time the system curves it from us So that should be more apps that get us back to what we're naturally good at you guys are fascinating tool for technology or for Curiosity rather because to be in it's seamless the way we use it on the show because there's always a question Yeah, there's always it comes up so often.

Yeah throw it in for flexibility. Yeah, let's find out what's up Yeah, so it's been great for us. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. Bye. Bye

#2521 - Aravind Srinivas

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