The Joe Wilgen experience. Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. Of course I know who he is.
Yeah and I believe him. I do too. I mean he certainly seems believable. I'm you know people that tell the same story for decades and decades without any variation to it.
It's hard I mean you know I don't know what happened but all the people that were with him during the time we're talking about for people just listening now. Talking about Travis Walton who was a man who in the 1970s was a logger in Arizona and he was allegedly or according to him abducted by aliens. And the people that he was with saw him get hit by a beam of light. They freaked out took off.
They were driving away and they were like we gotta go back and get him. We gotta go back and get him. They turned around and went back and got him. Tried to get him.
He was gone. The craft was gone and he disappeared for five days and then turned up and had this insane story. Yeah and then he's taken those tests like polygraph tests. Yeah polygraph tests like every year or something like that.
He takes them regularly and he always passes them. Well so did the people that were with him. Yeah yeah and I've seen people interview the people that were with him even just recently and they're like well whatever regardless of what I think about Travis as a person yeah that happened. Yeah one of the guys actually got in a fist fight with him the day of the abduction.
The guy did not like him. Like they hated each other and then you know they were young guys and then he had to testify and he was like it happened. Yeah yeah so yeah I believe him. And his interpretation has changed a lot too through the years and not the facts.
The facts are all the same but his interpretation of them like you know were they because he thought they were pretty maligned like bad right he didn't enjoy being abducted listed that way. But then over the years he said well maybe something spiritual happened but I don't know where he's at right now I haven't seen a recent interview. There's an interesting one that's out now with him and Bob Lazar sitting across from each other. Wow.
Yeah in a diner. It's very weird and they're sitting there eating pie talking about you know what they think this whole thing is. Yeah yeah. So what's new in the world of all this?
Well a lot right so the government has been releasing UFO files since May 2026 and this is something that a lot of people think is really important and you know it's a form of disclosure. They're pushing the group that is pushing this and happy that this is happening. They're also wanting the president to come out and say yeah there are these things. I saw J.D.
Vance on your show the other day that was really interesting. Of course I was interested in what he had to say you kind of pushed back on his what he was talking about in terms of calling. I don't want to use that word the D word right? Demons?
Why don't you want to use that word? Because I must take this opportunity now to say that I am speaking on your podcast as a private individual and I don't represent my university talking about this okay. So I mean seriously look what happened to him. I basically was honest and said yeah I think that these are demons.
Well you know that was a headline joke but when you actually listened to what he had to say it was more complicated. And so I thought that he did a good job of talking about it with you and if you want we can talk about that why he would think that. He is Catholic. I'm Catholic.
I do history of Catholicism is part of what I do. By the way I'm a professor of religious studies at university. So yeah so I've been like looking at that I've been doing Catholic history my whole life. So I started looking into UFO experiences in 2012.
And yeah so lots of stuff is new okay. I didn't think that he had a very satisfying explanation as to why he would say I think they are demons. Yeah I can feel that out. Okay or feel that in.
Alright so he's coming from the perspective of Catholic theology. So in Catholic theology there are generally if you're looking at anomalous phenomena which they do supernatural anomalous phenomena. A lot of weird stuff happens within the history religions okay. So they have categories for understanding this stuff and the categories include three different categories basically.
Three different types of things supernatural things which they think can't be explained and that they're like miracles. You know someone turn away ill praise for a saint's intercession and then they become healed and doctors say we can't figure that out. That's supernatural. That's a miracle from God.
Okay that's one category. The other category is the natural. So things that are within nature we can explain them you know everybody knows what a natural kind of event is hurricanes or things like that. But there's an event that cannot be explained but don't merit supernatural the supernatural category.
And those events by the way there's a word for it and they call it the pre-natural. Okay the pre-natural. And this has been a category that Catholics have had since at least the medieval time period. And because they're trying to figure out you know if let's just talk about you have those.
If you have those are here now most likely they've been around for a long time. And so whatever Catholics were seeing in the medieval time period they were they had categories for trying to understand it just like we were trying to have too. And so they're they say the theologians at the time said it's like a coiness Thomas coiness. He said okay the pre-natural these are events that happen and they're either angelic like you know good things like that or demonic which happens to be different.
Or that or demonic which are fallen angels or other things because God has created other things other than you know he's created the unseen and the scenes. Some things that we can't see. So in the pre-natural there happens to be experiences that people have with things that seem to be similar to what people talk about when they're talking about being abducted by UFOs. Beings that that appear and disappear.
Beings that can seemingly read your mind. So this would be the theological category that Catholics have called the pre-natural. And I think that's what JD Vance was trying to get at. But why would you call that a demon?
Okay so this is a good question and that's where I'm going to kind of like help push back on you and then you can push back on me again. Alright so the fact is that we don't know. Okay we don't know so there's analogous experiences that people have. Now that I've been doing this since 2012 a long time it is beyond a doubt that there's a pattern match between people who have these experiences and people who have demonic experiences.
That's an analogy but that doesn't prove that they're identical. When you say pattern match what I mean? Yeah so I'm talking about what people actually experience. So when people have these experiences what happens to them?
They report things like things appearing and disappearing. Luminous lights. Okay lights showing up. Aerial phenomena.
They also report beings. Beings that can somehow read their minds. They also report that sometimes they feel like these beings put thoughts in their minds. Okay these are all things that Catholics who know that history would say wow that sounds like this kind of situation.
Does that mean it is that situation? There's no no we can't say that it is. And that's where your point is relevant. Your point is that how do we know that they're demons?
We don't know that they're demons. But it warrants an investigation I think into the similarities. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website you should try Squarespace.
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See app for details. Okay, but when you think about demons. Most people think about evil. They think about something that does horrible things to you.
Possession, you know, something that causes you to murder people or something that wants to murder you or something that wants to steal your soul. That doesn't seem at all like what we're talking about with these UFO experiences. What it seems like is you're encountering something that is a superior intelligence, a superior technology. Something that's very different that communicates telepathically.
But they don't seem to have vicious intentions. So I don't understand the distinction. I understand why you would call that a demon. Unless you're just using that in this old school term because the people that were experiencing this supposedly or assumedly when we're talking about ancient times and they didn't have words for it and they didn't know what they were experiencing.
They would call that a demon. Yeah. Okay. So this is a really good comment.
And this is something that I'd agree with you like in before 2016. I'd say, yeah, you're right. What changed? Okay.
I did a lot of research. And what I found was that let's take an example because examples are good. Skinwalker Ranch. So there are a lot of people who are associated with looking into UFOs who are well known to UFO people who work at Skinwalker Ranch.
Okay. So I learned about Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on 2013 or so. And I learned it from about it from Gary. Gary Nolan.
All right. So he said, he was talking to me about it. He said, yeah, I learned my friends working out there and they want me to go out there and do some study of what's going on. There's anomalous phenomena.
They think it's associated with UFOs because UFOs show up and this and that. And I said, oh, are you going to go out there? And he said, no, I'm not going out there. And so I was like, well, okay, why?
And he said, because it's really negative, the things that happen to people, they get something called the Hitchhiker Effect. And so the Hitchhiker Effect is when this scary stuff that's associated with like a haunted place follows you home. I've heard of that before. Yeah, the Hitchhiker Effect.
I think it's called Hitchhiker Syndrome or something. And so I met a lot of people who had this happen to them who had had UFO experiences. So I would say that no, not all UFO experiences are like that, but enough of them are like that for me not to ever have one. And also to associate the pre-dram natural, that's what I started to understand that, well, the pre-dram natural is still the best category that we have for looking at this, because not all pre-dram natural phenomena, even for Catholics, is negative.
Right? Some of this is actually really positive. But the problem is that human beings have a hard time figuring out, like, you know, it could be deceptive. This is another thing where Gary Nolan comes in.
He was on Tucker Carlson, I don't know, like four years ago or something. And he said, and I talked to him about this too, Tucker asked him about, well, what do these things, you know, what do they say? And he said, and he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in the race in terms of religion, like he's not affiliated with any religion. So, you know, what specific examples do you have of them lying?
Okay, so listen, when we start to look at this type of situation with these experiences and so forth, what Catholic would do, like what a Catholic priest would do, would be to identify if there's deceit happening, identify if there are negative effects, and, you know, because there's criteria for looking at the pre-dram natural. And so, a lot of things that happen are when you have, you know, these abductions, which some people view as positive, but some people don't, they don't like these abductions. So, yeah, they'll say things that aren't true. And I don't know, they'll say like, okay, I'll take an example.
I'm not going to out any experiences that I know, but I know a lot. So, at this point, I've had like, I don't know about a thousand people talk to me about their experiences. So, one in particular regularly gets prophetic messages, some of which come true, most of which are not true. Okay, that means when you have one or two prophetic messages given to you by an anomalous, you know, being or whatnot.
And it comes true, you're willing maybe to believe it, right? Oh, this is, you know, telling me good information. But then they start not to come true. And then if that person makes this public, that person then is, you know, people associate them with falsehood and deceit.
And that's not a positive thing. Okay, but have you taken any consideration that this person might be mentally ill? Of course, of course. Yeah.
So, this idea that they're getting all of these, like whatever it is, visions, I mean, how are they receiving this information? Are they receiving it telepathically? Like when you say prophetic? Yeah, yeah.
So, they're different. So, you ask me what kinds of people, like what they would say, right? Well, if these things are deceiving them, so they have these prophetic visions, right? How are these visions manifesting themselves in their mind?
Yeah, yeah. Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing an event happen? Okay, so there are a variety of ways in which people receive this type of information, like prophetic information.
I would say that some people actually see things and the beings, like, impart telepathically, like mind-to-mind transmission, something, this is going to happen. And then they believe it. Okay, this happens within like angel events, like Marian apparitions happens to, you know, people, it happens to people in abductions as well. And, you know, I mean, that's what happens to them.
They see things, they sometimes have visions in their dreams. So, there are a variety of ways that people can get this information. Right, let's stop by there. Visions in their dreams could also just be dreams.
Like, how can they just make a distinction between just dreams? Like, oh, God's ill is chasing me. I was on a skateboard. I ran into my cousin.
We hit in his basement and then I woke up. Like, that's just a dream. That's not a prophecy. And if they're having those dreams as well as these visionary dreams that they think are inspired by some entity, how are they making the distinction between the two of them, if both of them exist at the same time, in the same person's mind?
Yeah, yeah. So within the culture of within our culture, we tend to put dreams in the same category. We say the dream about Godzilla is like, you know, all dreams are the same. Right?
They're either bad dreams or good dreams are neutral. Within, there are other cultures that distinguish different types of dreams. And within the Western culture, there have been times when people have just distinguished different types of dreams. Like say, you take the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, you have Joseph, right?
Joseph is a guy who's going to be big. He's a prophet. And he has dreams where he's able to tell the future. And he's able to distinguish between those dreams.
So within certain cultures, even cultures today, like different religious cultures, they have distinctions. The Mar-2 in Australia, they have, you know, they talk about the dream time. So we're kind of a culture that puts all dreams in the same category. And granted, that's true.
In terms of discussing whether or not people are mentally ill, Travis Walton's not mentally ill. Right? But Travis Walton is not having prophecies. No, I know.
But he's one that doesn't. And there are others who do. I understand. But we got to this place because we were talking about beings that deceive.
Right? So I'm saying that not all of them deceive. But I'm saying that I'm trying to explain. I'm trying to ask you.
Yeah. How are they deceiving? Well, I just told you so they'll be giving people information about the future, some of which is correct and some of which is not. Okay.
So how are they giving them this information? They're giving it to them telepathically or coming to them in a vision and a dream. It's very different things, right? Yeah, but it could be both depending on the instance.
Right? But if it's in a dream, how do they know it's coming from this entity and not just a dream? That's my point. No, I know that.
Yeah. They're being deceived. Well, a lot of them won't make that distinction. And so that's where you need the abductees.
Yeah. We'll make that distinction because they've never had this happen to them before. So of course, they're going to think this is true. But my position is that be careful because we don't know if it's true or if it's not.
Right? But I mean, how are you making the distinction between what is just their imagination and them being deceived? This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. I'm sure you've heard of Blue Chew by now.
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This ad and the products being added to the product. Are intended for a United States audience. Right. That's the good question.
I don't know. So how's Gary Nolan saying they lie? Well, he's taking data and he's saying that they're telling these people this information and it's wrong information. And so he's not making, he's not trying to make a big claim.
He's just basically saying, you know, Tucker asks them why, you know, what kind of things are they saying? And he said, well, they're being deceived, right? They say deceitful things. And my point, by the way, getting back to the original...
Happen it would be frustrating. Go ahead. No, no, I know you're frustrating. But the original question here is what is J.D.
Vance talking about what he's saying these are demons? And I'm trying to explain that he's referencing this theological category that has been around for a long time. And that is actually quite useful in adjudicating what's going on when people are having these experiences. Now, I'm saying that I'm not trying to propose that these are like experiences.
Honestly, I wouldn't want them to happen to me. And I don't wish them upon anyone. But some people wouldn't want to meet an alien? Not the aliens that people seem to be meeting.
So... Which one would you like to meet? Well, I don't know. I mean, hypothetically, like I'm not sure that...
I like to put it out there. I'm down. If they want to meet me, I'm down. I'd love to meet one.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I want to know. I'm not scared.
But they don't seem to steal you. They don't take your way and never bring you back. They just interact with you. I'm down with that.
I mean, we have to distinguish between... Yeah, go for it. Me and A.D. You didn't want that?
You wouldn't want that? You are a person who writes books about aliens. Yes, I do write books. Well, somewhat about aliens.
I write about the religion about aliens. Yes, but a lot of the subject matter has to do with extraterrestrial intelligence. Or whatever it is. It might not be extraterrestrial.
It might be interdimensional. Yeah, yeah. Or it might be here. Something that's of a superior intellect that's been here all along.
And it might be something within the category of the pre-natural. Right. Yeah, so my point is that if it is... Whatever it is, you're right.
I've been studying it. And I can say that if those are the aliens, no, I don't want to meet them. If they're the ones that people have come and told me about and said, I wish this never happened to me, then no, I don't want to meet them. Right, but it's different people, right?
And different people have different tolerances for experiences. And when someone says, I wish this didn't happen to me, it's because they can't handle it. And whereas other people might be able to handle it. Maybe, but look at the things that the fighter pilots, like David Fraver and...
They don't seem to have a problem with it. They're not saying, I wish this never happened to me. No, but they are saying that this looks pretty dangerous. I want it to...
First, I hope that this isn't an enemy technology. If our enemies have this technology, it's done. It's game over. Yeah, yeah.
So that's scary. And if it's not, then it's definitely something that we should take notice of, right? So if that's what's in our skies, and there have been reports of people, there's an Australian report, of pilots who have passed away because of this type of thing, like they died and so forth. How so?
I can't actually remember what it is, but it's a report of an Australian young guy who encountered something in the sky. And he was never found again. He was just, you know, what happened? I don't know.
He disappeared in the sky? Yeah, and there are with the jet. I don't know if he disappeared with the jet. I wish he knew more about this.
I know, I know. Maybe someone could get it up for us and we can look at it. But it's a really famous... It's not the way the key is.
It's a really famous Australian report. Here it is. It's 1978, 20-year-old Australian pilot, Frederick Valentik. I think it's Valentik.
Valentik took off on a routine training flight over a Bass Strait. Everything seemed normal until his radio transmissions began. Valentik reported a strange aircraft hovering above him with four bright lights and metallic surfaces moving at impossible speeds. Then came his final chilling words, it's not an aircraft.
After that, he vanished completely. His sess know was never found, despite extensive searches and no trace of him was ever recovered. Radar had detected another object in the area but never interacted with other flights. To this day, no one knows if Valentik crashed, got lost, or encountered something far more mysterious.
Even decades later, this remains one of aviation's most baffling disappearances. And the last words of a terrified pilot still haunt those who hear them. So there's one guy. I don't know.
You can go meet that one, Joe. And you know what? I think that... Maybe he's like in a cool place right now.
All right. Just chilling. Having a good time in another dimension. Hanging out with these creatures and they're explaining to him the future of the universe.
But you know that, the thing about what I do is I have a lot of information that people impart to me that I can't actually talk about. Right? And that's sadly that happens to people in... Because they ask you not to?
Yeah, they say I need help with this or this is my experience and I don't want it public and so forth. I mean... Even without disclosing the name? No, no.
I know who they are. And so I've had people who are pilots talk to me. Is this by the way coffee? This is ice cold coffee.
How's it cold? What? It's ice cold. I boiled it twice.
This coffee I make it again. It's ice cold. It's literally ice cold. That's weird.
Are you sure? Yeah, I had the button twice. It definitely didn't wear. It definitely didn't wear.
It banged and everything. Must be broken. I mean it's crazy cold. It's like cold water.
I got more information. A couple of different questions from that. I mean it's aliens. They're deceiving us.
They fuck with Jamie's cold water. 706 p.m. Valentique contacted the Melbourne air traffic controller Steve Robey reporting an unidentified aircraft trailing him at about 4,500 feet. For the next several minutes he described a long shiny metallic object with a green light.
The craft appeared to be orbiting above him. It was moving at high speed and playing some sort of game. His engine became rough idling and coughing. His final words that strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again.
It's hovering and it's not an aircraft. The transmission ended with 17 seconds of metallic scraping or keying sounds than silence. So yeah, so this isn't, so pilots and families of pilots have told me things similar to this. Not as dramatic maybe.
Can you get another cup to that port of cold coffee in this? So similar. And so I guess I just, you know, it looks pretty grim. That guy.
That guy. That one. Yeah. Yeah.
And there are like the movie, Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I've always wondered like how much of that movie was, there's so much of that that was based on previous UFO encounters and even figures like Jack Folei. Jack Folei plays in the French scientist in that movie is based on Jack Folei. Yes.
And so, and there's scenes where these pilots show up that from like World War One, you know, and they've been gone forever and other back and they haven't lost any time. I've always wondered like how much of this is based on stories and reports and folklore or whatever the government knew. Yeah. I think that it's based on stories and things that they, like, Jacques has heard and so forth.
And by the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive too. So his, you know, his idea, he's been, of course, his whole life studying this. And he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception. Yeah.
I think I read that one. Yeah. So, you know, once you do. I read a bunch of his books.
John Keel. John Keel. It doesn't have a good idea about these things at all. Things that are pretty nasty.
Doesn't want them in. You know, the Mothman prophecy. Yeah. It's based on his life.
And he's down on it. He's a doomer with respect aliens. How so? What is his perspective?
Okay. I'm going to give it to you right now. Okay. Give it to me right now.
All right. So he calls this, it reminds me of Catholicism in the sense that he has a category for it. It's called the super, basically the super spectrum. Okay.
And it's here with us now, just like he said. It's around us. But you and I can't see it. But some people do see it.
And some people interact with it and have like it breaks into their reality. And for those people, he thinks that they're unlucky because all the things that happen to them, and then in black show up, he thinks things like the beginning of all religions is basically about someone who had an interface with a pair of being, like one of these pair of humans in the super spectrum. So it's kind of like an invisible reality all around us, according to John Keel. John Keel was a pal of Jacques Velais.
He's passed away. But his books are really amazing. And if you want to get an idea about the super spectrum and the phenomena, you should watch that movie of his called the Mothman Prophecies. It's really good.
And so the super spectrum? Yeah. What does he think that is? He thinks that it's like a space all around us.
It's been here forever. It controls us. It controls humanity because it sends things like he thinks UFOs are part of it. He thinks the Virgin Mary operations are part of it.
He thinks ghosts are part of it. So any kind of woo thing is there in the super spectrum. And sometimes some people have the ability to see what's in the super spectrum. And he thinks they're cursed.
Now he thinks angels are part of the super spectrum. So he doesn't make any kind of distinction between the good things in it and the bad things. He said they're all bad. If there's one that appears to be good, it's actually bad.
So again, he was kind of like a Charles Fort type guy. So he started to get a lot of these events and he studied them and everything like that. And over years, he developed a theory that these were nasty things and that they were like even if they appeared good and that they were at the beginning of all religions. All religions come from the super spectrum.
Obviously, not that part of how it's like Catholicism. But religions tend to have theological categories that talk about things like the super spectrum. So what Jacques talks about in his books, it sounds very similar to his control mechanism and is very similar to John Keel's idea. What seems like just speculating, but it seems like we're dealing with a very limited framework that we operate in that we as human beings operate.
Do you want to take this, Jamie? Do you need this? OK. That we operate in this world of the senses that we possess, sight, sound, feel, touch, all that smell.
We have these senses for understanding what's around us, but only those. And it's not capable of detecting everything that is reality, everything that is the universe, everything that is from subatomic particles to whatever the fuck it is that we haven't even discovered yet. That's all around us all the time. And so if there is the potential for other realms or other dimensions and these things exist in some sort of space where they can interact and traverse in between these dimensions and interact with us at will whenever we can.
We're kind of left in this speculation space where when people have these very novel and unique experiences like Travis Walton, and then we are supposed to go, OK, did that happen? He didn't happen to me, but is he telling the truth? OK, maybe he is. If he is, well, let's see if he lies about other things.
He doesn't seem to lie. He's been around a long time. Travis has been around for a long time telling that story like almost 50 years now, right? When was his experience?
I thought it was 50 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You would think he would have a few other fibs. I agree.
I agree. And he doesn't. Yeah, yeah. If it was a lie, and I don't think it is, but if it was, that's a big lie to have only one, only one crazy cockamamie lie from 1970, whatever it was.
See, what you're doing is you're, this is part of the criteria for assessing these kinds of events. OK, it's called, you know, taking time. Right. So over time, so when an anomalous event happens within, like say, Christian culture or whatnot.
Thank you very much, Jamie. Appreciate it. The cold is all right, but it's like it's crazy. It's cold.
It's cold. How do you think it is? Dude. What's going on?
What are you thinking? It's cold like cold water. I understand what happened. Oh, yeah?
What happened? You didn't have to start by the make it boil? I didn't have to start by the make it boil. Oh, you were.
But it beeped that I did it. Oh, because it just turned off. OK, this is hot. Here we go.
My bad. Where were we? The categories. Oh, yeah.
You were basically just making a move. That's my strategy. Yeah, sure. Thank you.
Audio ads that connect. Display ads that stand out. Run them together on Spotify and unlock incremental reach for your campaign. Yeah, like looking at something like, I mean, that's my perspective on Bob Lazar.
You know, Bob Lazar has been telling the exact same story forever. I've had many conversations with Bob. I've had dinner with him. I've hung out with him a few times.
I've dinner with him several times. I hung out with him in the studio. He showed us that most recent documentary before it was released with Luigi, the guy made it with him. I know a lot of people that are full shit.
I mean, a lot of people that are full shit. I've had people sit here in front of me and then somewhere in the conversation, I'm like, oh, this person's not being honest. This is something. They've got an agenda.
They're pushing something. Or they're pretending they know some things because it sounds good, but they don't really know some things. I get real suspicious of people. I'm not suspicious of him.
It's weird. He's obviously incredibly intelligent and very well studied when it comes to science, when it comes to whatever it is, whether it's elements, particles, when he understands what he's talking about in a very deep way. When he's explaining these experiences, when he talks about this craft and his experiences at S4, he seems to be telling the truth. Since then, we know, first of all, that no one knew about S4 back then, but he knew where it was.
He knew exactly where it was. He knew about the flights that take people out there. He had a total understanding of Los Alamos Labs. I mean, he went there.
He knew the people that worked there. He knew how to get around the building when George Knapp took him there. He knew everything about the facility. Yet, they claimed that he never worked there.
Then they found him on the employee roster. He did work there. They tried to cover up. Why would they lie and say that he didn't work there?
Probably because he was involved in some shit that they wanted to keep secret. That's right. There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob Lazar story. When you see some of the footage that was released, particularly after the New York Times story of 2017, the footage that's released mirrors the way he describes this craft operating.
How would he guess correctly in 1989? Those are all good points. I told you last time I was on here that Tyler in my American cosmic book told me he was the real deal. Even though I had people who, Eric Davis, telling me, no, Diana, this guy's, no, no.
I believe Tyler. Everything that you say, I agree with. I don't know. You're always going to have people when you have a fantastic story like Bob Lazar's story.
You're always going to have people that want to say that the guy's full of shit, that there's something wrong. He's lying. It's not true. It's fake.
But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person who might know. He's a physicist who studies this and even briefs Congress on. I don't know. When Tyler tells me things and now that he's everything he said has come true, I believe him.
I believe that is true. If Bob Lazar is telling the truth, it's so disturbing the idea that there's a group of humans that operate in our government that have information that the general public does not have and that they're the gatekeepers of this information and they've determined for whatever reason that either it's not wise to tell people or it wouldn't benefit them to tell people, whatever it is, I think it's a crime against humanity. I think if you're a person that knows for a fact that there's something here other than us that either visits us or exists amongst us or travels here from another dimension, I think you have an obligation to tell people. But what if it's not that?
What if it's actually something we've created and we don't want anybody to know about it and Lazar happens to find out and that's why we don't want. I mean, think about it from the perspective of people who are trying to keep Americans safe. So just to push back a bit. Go ahead.
You know, what if that's it? So if that's the case, why would they bring a guy in to tell them how does this work? Show us how this works because that was his job. Oh yeah.
They brought him in and said, tell us how this works. And he was like, what are you talking about? This is ours. It has an American flag sticker on it.
Like, don't you know how it works? Why are you asking me how it works? It seems kind of crazy. That's not what you do if you have super advanced technology.
What you do is you bring in people to improve it and make it better. You don't bring in people and say, how does it work? Yeah. Okay.
Wait, I have a couple of comments about that. Okay. So when I first started, I was aware that people, I wasn't aware as much as I should be, but I was aware that people in my position, you know, who were basically just doing like academic work on the UFO beliefs, rising of a belief might have people come and give me disinformation. A hundred percent.
I have the same situation. Of course you do. Yeah. So we have to be that you're talking about discernment.
We have to be super discerning about who's, you know, our BS meter has to like be really well working or working well. Okay. So, but the person who took me out to the desert, right, with Gary during that time to an alleged crash site, which, you know, Jacques then goes out there. He basically also wants Gary to figure out this debris.
And so I'm thinking we obviously don't know what we have here if he's out, if it's legit. It could. Okay. So here are my comments about what you just told me about was our either they're setting up this situation where they're going to have someone like me and Gary who are like, they're trying to back engineer this, right?
And we're saying that publicly without any kind of like knowledge that could be disinfo. And then they have Lazar who we're going to plant. And then they do this like with benefits and stuff. They plant stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, benefits.
The guy who what he had stuff planted is in his computer. Do you not know about him? No, what is it's called? Project Beta.
This is a book a friend of mine wrote about. I can't remember. Yeah. So I'll call Paul Benavitz.
I've heard his name. Yeah. Yeah. You should read this because this is a disinfo scam on this poor guy who.
I just believe that he had intercepted communications from alien spacecraft and discovered a secret underground facility called Dulce Base. Dulce? Dulce Base? Dulce?
Dulce? I'd say Dulce Base. Dulce Base managed by aliens in cooperation with the US government. His claims appeared in the popular press in the early 1980s.
According to some sources, Benavitz was the target of a government disinformation campaign that ultimately led to his psychiatric hospitalization. Author Greg Valdez proposes that Benavitz was targeted for his investigation of cattle mutilations. Valdez argues the mutilations were a government testing program looking at the after effects of radiation from 1967's Project Gas Buggy, which underground atomic device was detonated just 21 miles southwest of Dulce. They were testing the cattle to avoid panicking the public.
Okay. So this problem with that story is the cattle mutilations still go on. Well, wait a minute. This is like completely not accurate.
This is just a re-for-compedia about. There's probably way more to the story. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Doherty, right? The guy who went, they placed misinformation on his computer so that he believed that he was. They placed it on his computer.
Yeah. They placed it on his computer. They put it on there and put it on there. And what did they put on his computer?
They put it on all this information about that he was in touch with his aliens. So they basically cultivated his belief that he was in touch with aliens. They did that purposefully. And Doherty, Doherty's first name.
Oh gosh. I had Doherty. No. He's really famous within Ufology because he's a misinfo guy.
So but. He's a misinfo guy. Yeah. So he's intentionally placing misinformation out into the public about UFOs, which is a thing.
Is he still alive? Yeah. He's still alive. And that's what he does for sure.
Richard. Yeah. How do you know he does that? What do you mean?
What do you mean? I'm surprised you don't know that he does this. Well, I'm speaking sometimes when I talk. I'm speaking for the entire public that probably doesn't know what we're talking about.
I think it's probably good that we fill them in. Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Okay.
So Richard, Doherty has come out and said this is what he does. And I know people who know him like the entire group in the Invisible College people with Hal and they all know who he is. And Kit offered to introduce him to me by the way. Kit Green.
So and by the way, all of these people are people who work on the use to work on the program, A-Tip and so forth to study UFOs. But my point though here in talking about this was what if Lazar was a person like me and Gary who was being given information, were credible, right? He's not so credible. But like, you know, he's this person that's been given information and placed out there so that and he's just on the edge of credibility.
Just so, you know, he's credible, but then he's not credible so that he could be taken down if necessary. That's how they get this information out there. Now, who am I talking about? They.
So what I'm trying to say is that what I've observed is that the government isn't unified in this whole UFO thing. They're fighting against each other. I try to stay out of their cross hairs frankly. What they're doing though is that every time somebody comes out and says, you know, here are the new UFO files, I'm studying them and so forth, then they get taken out by like counterintelligence.
So it's like intelligence and counterintelligence. So that is really confusing. The end result is total confusion and you really have to have an ability like to understand like your discernment has to be well developed. Right.
So I believe that I believe that there is disinformation and deception. I think that's a great strategy if you want to make something look ridiculous. You take truth and then you attach a bunch of fantastic ridiculous claims to that truth and so that it dismisses all of it, right? Because it's all in the same category and it's all easily debunked.
Like, oh, this is the same guy that also said that. So this is nonsense, right? That's exactly right. Tyler used to say we hide truth in a circle of confusion.
Which makes sense if they're trying to. Yeah, that's what they do, right? I mean, I don't know anymore. Like today, like Jacques at one point many years ago decided that the field of efology was so confusing that he wanted to go back, Pat, before the Industrial Revolution and do UFOs from a long time ago and he wrote Wonders in the Sky.
All about that stopped at like I think it was like 18, six years, something like that. And so he did that and I feel like I've done that too. Like I started that way actually and I wasn't looking for UFOs. So I saw, you know, so in a sense I understand that move because.
Obviously you weren't looking for UFOs. What were you looking for? Well, my first, the first part of my academic career was about looking at souls from purgatory and Catholic things. Like, you know, what Catholics thought about things that they experienced like angel contact events and that's when I started to take a log of these aerial phenomena.
I did not know what they were. And so historically you can see it all over the place in the records that aren't digitized. So there are a lot of records like people that say, oh, we have, you know, AI has everything of human, all human knowledge. No, have they never been to an archive?
An archive is really old library. There's a bunch of stuff there that's not digitized and that's still human knowledge. And so what were you looking for? Oh, okay.