#2560 - David Grusch

The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. Alright, we're up.

David, what's up? Thanks for coming back on. My pleasure. We're the one closest to the flames.

Tell me what's going on. I know, right? Living in nightmares when I tell my friends. It's definitely been a tough several years or so.

Last time we were on, just testified in front of Congress, and the UAP disclosure act of 23 was possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed. And then I based on things I know about the Biden administration, things I heard from the White House, I decided to lay low for a year, so 24 and do too much. And then Representative Burleson had this crazy idea to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress, working for him.

Turns out I was the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress as a whistleblower and then being subsequently hired by Congress. I was the first guy that ever did that, which is very interesting and very cool. And I do thank Burleson for his leadership on that. And so I did that for about a year and a half.

Just finished up actually. I was like, you know what? I'm staying longer than I thought. I'm going to wait until Labor Day, see where things are.

Worked pretty hard over summer recess in August and decided to wind down some of my activities because I accomplished a lot of my objectives. We can get into that obviously. And then I'll call my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me. It's been very tiring.

I've been going full throttle for the last couple of years and whatnot. And so we're really at a poignant moment in US history with what Trump's done and the things you've seen in the media and whatnot. And there's a lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes because a lot of my work has been private behind the scenes, working for Congress, specifically Representative Burleson. So let me ask you the environment.

So are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you and want to find out information and want you to tell them what's going on? And are there other people that are resisting this? Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the non-believers and then kind of the UAP caucus. Although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause.

Like I did a presser back in June in front of the Capitol with members and we even had Bridget General retired Representative Scott Perry there who was on the House Intelligence Committee for my home state of PA. And it was good to see other members start showing that they support the cause. But it has been challenging behind the scenes and I had many skiff-classified meetings with the members kind of going over the topological history of this topic and some of the deeper darker kind of criminal stuff I bumped into and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff. That's my criminal stuff.

Yeah, so when I was looking into this, I had to be very respectful of my participation as because it's an ongoing thing with DOJ. I was following the money, bumping into other activities, very much like it's sort of related. If you saw in the news that David Rush, very similar name to me, it's kind of freaky. But he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars.

He was a CIA officer. He made a fake continuity of government special access program. And he went under the radar basically doing his own thing and getting gold and Rolex's and stuff and the FBI raided his house back in May. True story.

Yeah, the guy has a- He has a gold bars? He has a $40 million of gold bars. Where did he get the gold bars? From the agency.

They have him laying around? Yeah, I can't get into all the details of why the government has gold bars. Yeah. And this guy just snatched him?

Yeah, he made, I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that nobody was briefed into. He like, you know, paper it and nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing. And he was like, well, I need, you know, $40 million in gold bars because of the special continuity of government activity. So that's how they fund some things in gold bars?

Yeah. It's almost like in Afghanistan, when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash because you have to pay for things, right? So that kind of makes more sense to me than lugging around gold. Yeah.

What does like $40 million in gold bars look like? I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot. I mean, it's really- Can I see what that looks like?

It's approximately 303 gold bars that each way approximately one kilogram a piece. Yo. That's a lot of weight. It's only like AI photos.

Yeah. At least I could find it. So a kilogram is 1.2.2 pounds? Yeah, 2.2.8 pounds.

That's crazy. He's got 600 pounds of gold. Yeah. What the fuck you put?

He just had it in his house? He did have it in his house. He's laying around. A bunch of Rolexes and all that.

Oh, so he was just going crazy. Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really going to use the gold for, but that's an open-ended thing. And he was arrested.

Was he pretending that he was using it for some disclosure type deal? Or did it have anything to do with UAPs? Not that I'm aware of, but that same ecosystem I bumped into. So his fabricated program was a continuity government program.

So that's like, if something bad happens, people are going to a hideout site, sanitized location. Right. And so what I bumped into, unfortunately, was like the deep underbelly of the federal government. We can get into it.

It's a lot of stuff I've never talked about because it's just very terrifying. I've been through a lot of crazy shit. And I ended up bumping into a criminal enterprise run out of a particular agency. And it was basically getting money through certain criminal endeavors, the most unspeakable type of criminal endeavors under the cover of certain national security programs.

That's about it. When you say certain unspeakable, what do you mean? Like, trafficking? Yeah.

Like child trafficking? So the government was involved in child trafficking for money. Officers of the government, that's true. It's fucked up by, I briefed members in a classified setting on the details.

And I'm highlighting that because this is how serious this issue is. There's an ecosystem. And there's a lot of good people around these programs in terms of the UAP. And I know a lot of them, they're friends of mine, they're patriotic people doing their duty, but there is like a small little caste system of characters that are part of this larger ecosystem of no holds barred.

We're going to do what we want. And we're going to do whatever kind of criminal activity to get a washed money for our cutouts. Like, so a good example, of course, would be our grand contract, which is very famous 86. And the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities.

This has all been exposed all over North and all that to fund the contra, weapons, purchases, procurement, et cetera. And a lot of that seemed to possibly be drug trafficking. The government never confirmed that, but you look at Barry Seal and his statements in the 80s and 90s. And it's likely that that probably occurred.

Yeah, it was off through the freeway Ricky Ross. Yeah. And he's been on the podcast multiple times. That's right.

That's right. Yeah. He was on, was it like two years ago, year and a half ago? Last time he was on.

It's funny because he's out now, became an attorney while I was in jail, found out, learned to read first, okay, couldn't read, became an attorney in jail, found out that they tried him, you know, that triple jeopardy, three strikes thing. Yeah. They tried him incorrectly. They used that incorrectly because it's supposed to be three different times you were arrested instead of like three crimes that were attached to one arrest.

So he gets out of jail. Now he sells legal weed. All right. All right.

Lovely guy. Yeah. But he's a great guy. He was selling cocaine to fund the conscious versus the Sandinistas.

Interesting. He had no idea. He thought that he was just a slit character that just knew what he was doing. He didn't realize that the CIA was literally allowing him to do it.

Now we've also had Michael Rupert on the podcast. You know who he is? No. Michael Rupert was the LA narcotics officer that I believe was on C-SPAN.

He went on C-SPAN during a hearing and he exposed the entire organization, selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles because he was involved in it. He was involved in like busting people that were doing it and then they told him he has to leave it alone because it was the CIA. Yeah. So this episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

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And so I bumped into that stuff. You know, I immediately worked at the Department of Justice. That's one level, but like child trafficking is another level. Man, it's really fucked up.

And there's a lot of details that are. I have a lot more questions than answers. And I worked with DOJ. And from what I understand, I got a gold star and a brief decast hotel about it last year.

I wasn't in the briefing, but I was told I got kudos, but it was very disturbing. And so obviously a lot of these programs are legal in the sense that there's, in terms of UAP stuff, there's class of police, I can have orders back in the day that covers them. And they're upstanding citizens. And we could litigate like, you know, Congress wasn't necessarily brought into the fold enough from an oversight perspective, et cetera.

But you know, the core of the program, you know, does have a legal beginning. But when you don't have oversight, unfortunately, certain small pockets of people start doing shit that they should. Right. And unfortunately, I got deeply ensnared in that.

And there was a very small group of people that's, you know, pushing me over the edge and I had to do what I got to do to protect myself. And I never wanted to be a whistleblower. I was a deeply entrenched, you know, 15 year Intel officer, military officer, near force. You know, I was working some of the country's most sensitive issues, you know, started going to the White House, the British National Security Council, my mid 20s on space issues back during the Obama administration.

And in 2019, when I joined the UAP Task Force and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, sure, I'll look into it. You know, the special access program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction. And maybe some stuff wasn't reported, you know, correctly. And I know really what I was going to find.

But if there was a US program, you know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably get cleared to it and we'd be fine. We'd have like a mafia meeting. And, you know, that, and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot.

But unfortunately, about a year and a half, about October 2020 is when kind of my life changed. So, particular individuals, instead of coming to me, who knew me, by the way, personally, and I know that personally, now Dave, you're bumping into something. You know, I'm going to defensively brief you. This is what it is.

Or hey, I'm going to slide an NDA, sign this and I'll read you. And my colleagues and I joked about that. Like, we're bumping in the shit. Eventually, somebody's going to knock on my door in my office and be like, hey, I need to talk to you.

And unfortunately, that never happens. It's really tragic because that would have been an easier way. But I immediately got administratively nuked in October 2020. And basically, they went after everybody around me.

My boss at the National Constance Office, as major grush, the Air Force officer in the reserve, got walked out of Enrove headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia under fabricated personal conduct things. And they went after my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I was 15. And coworkers, people they thought were my enablers, right? And I thought, OK, I could fight this.

They're bringing up my mental health stuff, which we talked about before, Afghanistan, PTSD. I reported it. I was cleared of no problems, kept my top secret clearance. And I still have my top secret clearance.

But it got very, very scary in early 2022. And I've avoided talking about this for a long time. And I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023, I'm here in fear for my life, et cetera. Well, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff I found, stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff.

And so back in early 2022, everything's fine. I started noticing some suspicious activity near where I live. And I didn't think much of it. I thought it was kind of strange.

I don't want to quite go into all the details. But basically later, one particular day, I was sent a message that they can touch me and my wife. And they know where we are. And what do you think this was because of the child trafficking stuff?

Was this because of some other illegal activity with no oversight? You know, in private environments, I was asked what red line, what tripwire did I cross? To this day, I don't know specifically. I suspect, based on them, what turns out, they were monitoring my classified computer at my recent my investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there.

I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things. And I still don't know for sure that like in it. And there's a lot of other things to I guess I'm kind of jumping around because in early 2021, you know, certain people that were helping me and I was talking to started to experience a Havana syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous health incidents. And I know a lot about that.

That's another kind of ecosystem. I was an expert in the government's. And of course, my first thing is like, huh, did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service or because you don't think domestic. And I'm like, what did you do in your career?

Were you on covert action programs? Did you like, you know, bomb some, you know, adversaries building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge? And so I noticed that I wasn't going to equate that to the topic. And but I was very nervous about that because people I know were starting to experience a symptom specifically a microwave directed energy, most likely just based on certain trade craft.

They were doing the detective, which I won't get into the details of that. And then there's a symptomology, so to speak. And so that was frightening. And in that 2021 timeframe, I was sitting at home, I was getting, you know, investigated by three agencies and I really didn't know what was going on.

A lot of my colleagues were going to continuing on that investigation on my behalf. And eventually in late 2021, NGA hired me as 15 off the street, kind of came back into government full time. I was hoping that agency would protect me against, you know, the CIA in the NRO and certain elements of the DOD that were going after me because of these couple antagonists that were trying to, you know, basically push me over the edge administratively. But what I crossed the Rubicon early 2022 when I was sent a message and it was the same day I was sent a message, other people got that message too.

So it was coordinated geographically. And of course, you know, I reported that to federal law enforcement, intelligence element. And at the time, I'm like, well, you know, there was a one adversarial intelligence agency that had interested me several years ago and I had a little incident. That was actually kind of funny.

So I wasn't sure if it was like the US government or even if it was related to my investigation. And then several, several weeks later, and I was, I get chills talking about this because it's kind of upsetting. I was in DC for a conference on UAP, actually, for my agency, NGA at the time. And I got some into an off the books Senate Intel Committee, we'll call it meeting in their, you know, their skiff right there, their vault where you could talk about information.

And certain individuals were there known to me, great credentials, people I've known for a while in my line of work. And so was, you know, doesn't, doesn't have senior staff or Marco Rubio, Marco Werner, you know, et cetera. Right. And in that meeting, you know, we talked about the legacy program, the history, many hours, and I'm going to fly on the wall.

Like this is really for the Senate staff. I'm just kind of sitting in the back. And, you know, they turned to staff and they pointed at me and they're like, oh, by the way, you know, these couple individuals and they named the individuals, I'm like, I know who they are. They wanted to kill you.

And I know Lou Ella's not to talk about it. But why? I do not know that for sure. I think, well, so be careful what I say.

There are certain presidential findings that allow certain things, the particular things in the government. And my assessment is I was getting so close to exposing it because I was sort of preparing my inspector general's report to the IG that I must have crossed some sort of rubicon. I still would like to know and I hope these people are, you know, brought to justice. And that's, you know, my wish and dream and hopefully the Department of Justice does what's needed, but there's an investigation ongoing right now.

Yes, on that. And that's all I'll say defensively not to interfere with that. A good day starts with a solid morning routine. So if something's missing, if your body isn't getting what it needs, everything can feel off.

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Okay. How much of this do you think has to do with actual UAP disclosure and how much of it has to do with a lack of oversight that allowed people to do illegal activities? I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect, you know, medical infrastructure in the United States, which, you know, for example, that would be like an Air Force flight line, a ICBM silo, other activities, and they decided I was some sort of threat. It's so disgusting because I, you know, like I said, I was a field-grade officer in Air Force, I was a geosotean of CIA, Colonel Colvin Civilian, and I'm sitting there and sitting at chambers and I'm hearing this.

And I won't get into all the details in a lot. I heard, like, you know, all the details on that and I don't want to like burn my sources. And I just remember how upset Senate staff was. And to the point where, you know, a particular staffer who was very senior went to his office and got some whiskey and, you know, all of them started drinking in the skiff because it's like everybody was afraid, like, are they serious or like they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave?

And like, and I found out that there was a kabosh to that. It's a longer story for some day if I could ever, you know, discuss the whole history. And so it was considered then it was kabosh. Yes, thank God.

And I know how it stopped and I owe some people a debt of gratitude literally. And, and this was just a few weeks after, you know, I was sent a message and even after the meeting, we were finding stuff and other people were finding stuff to let people know that they're being tracked. And I know this sounds like so crazy and all that. Well, so someone having $40 million in gold and out there, I was in a bunch of Rolexes.

Yeah, never did I think, you know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love serving America. You know, it hurts me every day, not having uniform anymore. And knowing that was the level that they thought about going to because of this interesting interpretation of certain standing options and I, and eventually in this disclosure process, a lot of that will come out.

I just have to be careful what I say now until, you know, the president figures on how to, you know, release some of this history, unfortunately. So, yeah. So one of the things that we talked about before, so you were scheduled for another podcast a while back, but flights got canceled and we moved it today. But you were saying that it's actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled.

Yeah, a lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really, really serious on this. And I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is showing right now ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It'll be courage.

How so like you think he's in danger? No, not necessarily, but it's, it's the ontological shock and the history coming out and some sort of the outrage. I mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of like in post 9-11 America after the towers fell, right? You have the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks, but you also have this like uniting panacea that kind of brings people together.

You think that is equivalent to what's happening right now? It will be. And I think that's going to happen. So I believe before Trump, Trump's term ends that it's all going to come out.

What does that mean? Everything I've testified about, you know, the fact that, you know, we've been studying this for a while. We've recovered material, AKA attacks, semi-attack craft. We've, you know, recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft and, you know, we are reverse engineering.

And obviously there's other parts to that. It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot of people who are just really set all shows Indiana Jones warehouse tour don't appreciate the care that we're going to have to proceed with because this is not a static ecosystem. This isn't just like archeology.

We're digging up stuff. There is, you're dealing with, you know, third parties, both human, you know, adversarial countries, et cetera, they have their own program. Then you have, you know, our, this anomalous intelligence, our visitors, our NHI, whatever you want to call them, ultra-terrestrial, depending on what taxonomy and the tree that you want to, um, ascribe some of this origin to. And, uh, and of course, you know, the, the national security related technology that has been derived.

We've derived great stuff to find America, I've had exposure on that and, you know, I'm very reminded through back engineering. Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

Yes. Well, some of it, it was inspiration. It wasn't a one to one. Like we, we, we unlocked the iPhone.

It was like, huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that, um, frequency selective surface property. You know what? We could use that for an aerospace application or whatever.

And so a lot of it was garnered via inspiration, not one to one. Yeah. In some cases, I suppose we did, but like that's what most of it. Yeah.

So what's the hold up in terms of disclosure? I necessarily can't read the president's mind. There's certainly a, uh, multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean, so we're in this, this issue now where once we cross the Rubicon, then we affect allies and adversaries, you know, our adversaries programs, where are they going to tell their citizenry, you have a possible theological distress, Vatican, et cetera, and I'm a Catholic and I certainly appreciate the Vatican's long study on this subject and they've just stayed quiet on what they know.

But there's a lot of like collateral effects. If you're not careful with certain stuff, you, you can, you know, trigger a response and there is great fear that's, uh, I don't necessarily believe in this, but like there has been assessments in the past that, you know, revealing certain things may, you know, trigger a response from a third party trigger response from them from these possibilities. Yes. And that is a, that has been written up.

So the thing tanks wrote that up and reports the previous president. So the, the, the theory is that we disclose people are now aware of it all over the globe and they decide to show themselves. Yeah. And so it's a real fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say.

Oh boy. And, you know, and it's one of those things where I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time because clearly the government hasn't right now. And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be stood enough to know what to ask for, you know, massage the deep state and get that information because we just saw timber shed on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about Stephen Miller called him and was like, Hey, I'm getting blocked, like physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff.

And you know, that's very concerning. I'd say Stephen Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pit bull and as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his. That's a silly thing to say.

You know that, right? A fellow alpha. Well, alpha, but you self up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule. Yeah, I know.

I mean, nobody's perfect. And I know everybody has their faults, but I do appreciate the fervency. He is attacking the issue behind the scenes. And I just, I think he needs, God, in the right way and informed and kind of how, how to cut the steel, you know, I imagine very briefly at the UFC event at the White House and he told me that it's going to come out.

Okay. That's good. Well, there you go. It was really quick.

This is literally all we talked about. The UFO thing is going to come out. Yeah. Okay.

When's it coming out? Let's go. Exactly. And Trump understands this subject pretty good.

And, you know, he's in the know and he understands some of the implications. So like I said, he has a lot of courage because this is likely going to change society in a big way. I can't, I'm not like a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist. Like I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways it might reduce, you know, fetal nation state, peer competition and other things, but it is going to change.

And I think when people look back at this interview, it's going to be very haunting because I think in short order, you know, before Trump leaves office, we're going to be in a new paradigm. I'm normally a very pessimistic cynical person. A lot of my friends know that, but I have great confidence that the president is doing the right thing. And I feel there's eventually going to, there are the people that are in charge of this are going to have to comply with the president's order.

But there's a right way of doing this, I think. And I, like I said, I'm not some sick of fan for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower, obviously. And, you know, I have philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff.

But I am surprisingly confident, which is, which is kind of weird for me to say because I just see the tea leaves. I know Miller, Sirius. There's other people in government, Sirius, and even see Eren Lucas, the PDNI, the Deputy Director of National Intelligence, you know, signing these big NDA waivers to include any kind of waiver of not even telling the president, sorry, you have to tell us kind of thing. And so you're seeing kind of the chessboard being set.

I know everybody's not happy with the tranches coming out with the low hanging fruit videos and recordings and stuff. And Representative Burleson and I, before I left his office recently, got a 1952 recording that was still classified from Blue Book talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy shit that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges, which is interesting because in that video that's been declassified, it mentions the very sites that in modern day have been that same anomalous activity to include stuff in the Southwest. I can't say where it's an ecosystem in the open source, but the executive branch has to acknowledge what specific tests and training range. They're seeing crazy orbs that they can't explain.

A cost helicopters and all that. So is Trump experiencing resistance in your opinion? Yes. And I don't know all the details, but clearly Miller has.

And a lot of it is, I think, and I can't read the mind of the deep state, but as a former deep stater, I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political appointees and they don't, and members of Congress, like they don't have the reverence on this issue. They're going to fuck it up. They're going to say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program. And that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress.

It's called waived programs. And the only presidents that were really, really involved were the ones like H.W. Bush, right? He was C.I.

Director. He was fully briefed on this issue. A lot of that lore is true about H.W. Bush.

Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in this. He was the mob boss for many years. He was kind of the head of this activity. And so I think there's some testing of the waters right now.

It's kind of like Cat's paw dynamic. We'll give you a little bit of this, a little bit of that. They're seeing how the administration is going to potentially roll this out. And obviously, if the White House wants my opinion, I'm available, but I do trust the president's team hopefully will be able to handle this.

Because if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through, I don't think any other president is going to be able to. I mean, regardless of Democrat, left, right, whatever, like if he follows through on this, he's going to be the goat. He's going to be a legend. And all the other things people have problems with in his presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this will wipe those out.

And this is really important for his legacy to initiate the process before the 28 election. And then there's a hot handoff to the next administration. And Trump's a political animal. He could easily line up a Republican team on the 28 tickets to basically be his continuity on this too.

I think that'd be very smart. So this is going to take a long time to release? Is that how you're projecting this? That was always the plan back in the day.

Just because it's an aestheticization and climatization process. It's like, we're going to focus on this topic. Everybody's going to get normalized. The temperature's going to cool.

And then we're going to bring in this shocking thing. So there's a schedule. Like in terms of the psychological impact on the populace? There was in the past in terms of certain government think tanks wrote classified assessments for previous presidents on this.

I don't know what the current plan is. I'm currently literally a private citizen right now. But if they're going to do what they did in the past, it is. And the slow rollout has its pluses and minuses.

I would say due to human factors, risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us, other whistleblowers, whatever, you probably have to roll this out in at least 12 months and what not. But we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start because China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now, our weakness. China has their famous Belt and Road initiative. China has admitted publicly that they have a UAP task force.

Obviously, they have more than that behind the scenes. And they actually announced that when the DOD UAP task force was announced, you can find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post where they talk about their analyzing these encounters, they're using AI, et cetera. Do you feel that China has or do you know if China has these crashed vehicles as well? There's parallel programs.

There's parallel programs. Now, one of the things that Diana Pasulco said when and Gary Nolan refers to in the same way as well, they refer to them as donations. Yeah. So that's what's really interesting is I am aware of certain historical retrieval where they were perfectly landed.

And it wasn't like a crash. And what is what's going on there? I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I had never had access to that kind of information.

I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level. But that is true that that's actually happened. So the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps work from it back engineer it or like you were saying before gain inspiration to try new. Yeah.

I mean, part of it's like throwing the gorilla banana, see if it can peel it. But also the more skeptical intel officer in me is like, was this a Trojan horse? Do you want us to figure things out and then get addicted to certain type of technology? And then that creates a control loop where they start handling us, whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology.

They are in this intelligence. Whatever this is, this non-human intelligence. Right. So if it is a donation, do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers?

You know, I do not know the statistical distribution. That's very interesting. I never understood the total number of retrievals in other countries participated. But there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States.

Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I don't know the answer to that actually. I'm sure there's a statistical analysis that will come out in this process.

Do you think there's any shared information between these governments? Do you think they communicate? There is a gentleman's agreement, the top layer of it I can talk about, and I've talked about it previously so it's not anything super new. If you look at the accident measures agreement in 1971, which is the short title of this god awfully long title treaty that was signed in September 1971, you'll see Article III of the treaty talks about UAP.

And hey, if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical comms facilities, please call us bro. That was between the USSR and America. And then in 2013, the classified annex that you got declassified, you can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives, but it gives the new clash, like the red line like code to say it was like Adam two to two Adam three three three nuts all declassified. And you would send that to the Kremlin like hey, we see fucking weird shit around possess.

It's not us. It's not a false flag and vice versa. And so there was a red line comms for UAP activity between Russia and the US and of course, Russian US during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for a space launch vehicle and ICBM launches, et cetera. Weirdly enough, we've never had that with China.

Even to this day, we don't have a mutual, this is crazy. We don't have a mutual notification if they're going to do like a submarine launch ballistic missile test off their coast, they're not obligated by treaty to tell us. And sometimes they don't with certain national security activities. And so Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning Center, other places, NSA DEFS, MAC, and the Lower Maryland have to be on their A game to make sure it was like a test.

Because the Chinese aren't obligated to tell us. And I, a crazy story in that regard, the Indians did something like that to us. I was on duty in the NRO operation center. And by the way, I got this clear for security.

So, you know, NRO, don't shank me. Basically, there was an unexpected Indian missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019. I was like March of 2019. One of our satellites?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, they're on their own satellite. Yeah, their own defunct weather satellite. On purpose or next? On purpose.

And they shot down one of their own satellites. They didn't tell us. I remember in my office at like all these different phones, I'm like calling the embassy, all this. I'm like, what the fuck?

And because we were worried at the NRO about the debris, because we fly space, you know, spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Constance Office. And I was the backup director of intelligence as a reservist at the operation center where I was, you know, also handling the PDB for the director and I, you know, led the director's briefing team. And, you know, I'm like, going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens, like calculate the debris field, you know, let me know if we have to maneuver something and blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, running up to the director's office in my uniform, you know, out of breath. Holy shit, you know, and it was kind of a big deal. And that's publicly, you know, you can Google that now. And I remember when that went down, it was pretty crazy.

So no, it sounds completely insane. Yeah. So are there other countries besides China, Russia, and us that supposedly have access to these vehicles? Yeah.

Which other countries can you say? I don't want to get into it. I guess I get some sense of stuff. Right.

Supposedly, this is like one of the best legends, that there's a craft that's so large they couldn't move into, they had to make a building around it and supposedly in Korea. I don't know. Oh, yeah, you do know. How dare you?

But have you heard that rumor? I'm sure I'm lying. I've heard that rumor online. Yeah.

You know, anything about that? Yeah. We'll let the federal government do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff? You know, it's funny you asked that I, as far as I can remember, I have no experience with a phenomenon.

Like a lot of, a lot of people in this, I guess, UFology or whatever you want to call it, they have that personal experience. Like, oh yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orbit or whatever. I have zero. I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky that, you know, could have been satellite passes.

I've been an amateur astronomer, I've been an amateur astronomer since I've been an amateur astronomer since I was like a middle school, like 12, 13 years old. And I still have never seen anything in my personal life in a cis-dependent nature. I've never had any kind of spooky woos stuff happen. Never been visited.

No. And that's why I was open to this. You know, I'm a child of the 80s. I was born in the 80s.

Most of my childhood was in the 90s. And I watched X-Files and Star Trek Next Gen. And of course, I'm a precocious teen reading like a brief history time. And Isaac Asimov and I'm learning about the Drake equation.

I'm like, there's probably life, but who knows? And I'm open to it. And then when I got into the intelligence community, that's like the first thing I looked up, like on the computer. I go on to a certain database, I'm like typing in area 51.

You know, UFology. Like everybody's done that. I was like, I can't tell school whether they admitted or not. And of course, I didn't see anything or anything.

The only thing I bumped into early in my career in like 2009, I remember reading the OSAP, the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents, the DRDs. And at the time, I had no idea what they were doing. Turns out it was obviously UAP related, but I was reading, why is the DIA looking into magneto-hydrodynamic propulsion and cloaking and all this other stuff? And of course, I find out later what it was.

But I had absolutely no personal experience, and even professionally, for most of my career. Now, I found out, behind the scenes later, like oh, you remember that top secret program you're working on Dave, you were actually looking for UAP you didn't know it, I'm like, what? And of course, I find out, and I learn about how they hit all this infrastructure, and they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense, because they're not going to reinvent the wheel and totally have a separate infrastructure to use to figure out if stuff crashed, activity, et cetera. And early, I would say about 10 years into my career, I remember some imagery analysts saying, hey Dave, they told us to airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff, and it was round, and I'm like, OK, dude, well maybe that's something you're not clear to or whatever.

And I do remember that. And I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career, too. I was on some really sensitive stuff, but I ended up finding out it was directly adjacent to the program. And I went through this whole smoking man recruitment thing for a year, and I was told I was going to get these bizarre accesses.

I'm like, what are you talking about? And ultimately, I was never recruited. And I just filed that in the back of my brain for years. But like I've said before, it wasn't until spring of 2017, I was at the CIA briefing, the deputy director staff, on a bunch of DOD classifier programs, and the chief of a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside, and was like, what do you know about UFOs?

Like, I hear there's a program at the Pentagon and all that. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm briefed on this every DOD program at the time, by the way, in hundreds of programs in the intelligence community, because I was in a position of high trust. And I'm very patriotic, and I'm very humble that I was in a position like that in my 30s.

And I didn't think anything up until this subject got more popularized, people in public, Tom DeLong, TTSA, and all that. And then I was professionally interested, but not really working on it in 2018. And then early in 19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the then Navy Task Force, which became the DODs, UAP Task Force. That's kind of my origin story.

And so I was always, I've always been curious, but I never saw evidence and I never had any personal experience with a phenomenon that kind of colors my judgment on this, I guess. So I'm sure you're aware of how put off when he was tasked by the Bush administration, along with the thinkers to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure. Yeah, I knew some other people in that meeting, and I verified that meeting took place. And even, even Arrow emitted in their volume one report, which is horrible, that's a long story, painful.

It's a place, but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a federally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia. What year was this? 2004. It was November of 2004.

And it's like, but why was it hypothetical, if it's not real? Nobody explains that. And obviously, the story is, Steve Hadley, who was a national screw advisor, sponsored it. I believe Hadley denies it.

But who knows if Steve would tell the truth on that just because of the sensitivity. And so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly, they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders, and they gave them a pro and a conside. What would be negatively affected by disclosure, what would be positively affected by disclosure, and attached a numerical value to each thing. Correct.

They had a computer system there that tabulated everything. From what I know, talking to other attendees. And virtually, every one of them had more negative than positive. And so the decision was made to not disclose.

Yeah. And the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in the Supreme Court. But they realized a lot of, and so this is another issue of disclosure.

Besides the ontological shock, and people can't handling it. Misappropriation of funds. Yeah, and misappropriation of funds and all that. It's, oh, so these set of contractors got soul source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development, where they figure out something that's held back to the government, et cetera, for all these decades.

What about my mid-level small business and my contractor? And blah, blah, blah. And so they were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the defars, the defense federal acquisition regulations. And the government would be liable for, who fucking those?

Billions of dollars worth of money so they spent on this to these contractor partners that got in back in the day. And like, well, we're not exposing any more people. We're blocking it down. And what they call a J&A justification and approval for a soul source contract.

This is a reasonable security. We can't expose any more people to this. And of course, that also causes the brain drain and group think and actually hurts the defense industrial base. But that was the main reason.

It wasn't, oh, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it. It was like, yeah, we're culpable and fucked up a contractual relationship. And that's going to be something that the Trump administration is going to have to deal with. It's like, well, how do I reorient the defense industrial base?

I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America, more people get to play. You overtly can take the basic information. It's not sensitive. And put it into academia, right?

So you have undergraduate graduate, graduate postdoctoral programs. And you actually create this more educated workforce to actually benefit national security. But in China, it doesn't have this issue. They're pulling people from picking on university and China, Nanjing, whatever, university.

And they're sucking them into these programs. But in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment. So we're trying to probably don't have the issue with misappropriation of funds in line to Congress. No, CCP, baby.

You know, do whatever you want. So they don't have to worry about liability. So this is one of the things that came up in that film, Age of Disclosure. That's right.

That you're going to have to make some sort of an amnesty program. Yeah. And I am for that as long as it's like use immunity for specific testimony or something. As long as it doesn't cover this other shit that you're talking about.

Like my, and of course, I know who's watching people clearly that are from this ecosystem. I would expect that. Like everybody's been basically good Americans. There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things.

And hell, they wanted to fucking kill me. This is disturbing. And you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't want to do this shit.

But I was pushed over the edge to do that. I digress. But besides like blue collar, really fucked up criminal shit. But once again, there is a judicial justice process in America.

We're not going to do street justice here. We will take care of that professionally. Like I took care of the other criminal stuff I found out professionally. I'm like, look, I'm in.

And when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people, body armor armed with colleagues of mine that were rolling heavy too. And it was a very serious part of my investigation. But yeah, I believe in amnesty. But I think we need to do it like a truth and reconciliation commission, which was in post apartheid South Africa in the 90s where you had some white farmer comes in.

It's like, yeah, I murdered a bunch of black people or whatever. And it's like, OK, thank you for telling us that. You're good. Don't do it again and move on.

I mean, I'm distilling it down. That's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was. And I think something like that would be very additive and good because I have friends that run the program. They're great guys.

They're bros and gals. And they were signed paperwork. It was like, if you divulge this, it's under penalty of treason, you get 11 worth or capital punishment. And let's break down what you know and what you can say.

What are these things? And what are they capable of? So there's physical and non-physical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasmoid?

Possibly. Sentient plasmoid. So plasmoid has consciousness. In some way, and that could be like you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole and some other intelligence shooting this, like I'll call it like plasmoid probe into our existence.

I mean, this is of course a theoretical framework. And once again, I'm not a PhD in an analysis. But it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma-based life form. And there's already papers on the open internet about this.

A couple of years ago, I'll have to tie the paper. They wrote about this possibility. So this is a academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it?

Interestingly enough, and OSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magneto hydrodynamic propulsion, which if you remember the movie The Hunt for Red October, that's the caterpillar drive on the Russian submarine back in the day. And of course, with MHD, you can also do it. You have to use a conductive fluid, either seawater that has salt in it or you can do it in the air, but you have to create plasma. And you steer the plasma, it's called the Lorenz force.

It's basically of a perpendicular magnetic field, a large amount of electricity. And you can basically, through Lorenz force, which is like ionic propulsion, sort of controlled in the atmosphere as well. And you can read papers on that, nitriple-e, and other stuff like that. And so one of the byproducts of an air breathing MHD system is plasma around it.

So depending on the size of the orb, it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as well, just as an artifact of the propulsion system. Once again, that's a theory, I'm sure the program knows, and that will be communicated at a later date. But that's, yeah. So this theory about sentient plasma, is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be, and that life, as it evolved, in other places, in other parts of the universe.

Wait, non-corporeal at some point. Like the meat suit sucks. We're gonna be energetic. This is an ultimate expression of both technology, and at least enhanced evolution, that eventually consciousness is isolated, or consciousness may be ubiquitous, and exists in everything in every, anyway.

And that, yeah. Yeah, certainly, and I'm not the expert, and I would say the consciousness theory, I like the Penrose-Hammarov, orc-or theory, which is the microtubules, the room temperature. So microtubules are in neurons of the brain, and you have this room temperature quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer. And that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart Hamarov, and I've talked to Hamarov, crazy smart guy.

He's an anesthesiologist by training, and Penrose obviously is a very famous mathematician and a physics legend, and that's how they view consciousness. I'm not saying that's the exact model. I happen to prefer it, because it's very trippy and very interesting, and does explain spooky action and telepathy, because, oh, well, it's just a quantum system, and I'm like, quantumly entangled. Oh, that makes sense now.

Like, why remote viewing and other stuff works. Right, okay. So you have some sort of plasma-based intelligence. Yeah, and then what else?

So obviously there has been the physical craft of all different flavors like I've talked about. The tic-tacs are real, there's eggs, there's different types of disks, there's boot heels, sunfish looking things, boomerangs, crescent moon looking craft as well, and obviously all those have different origins in terms of pilots and whatnot. There's a little bit of overlap. It's almost like certain people like the Porsche 911 or Ford Mustang, they kind of build the same shape, and that's probably indicative of the technology of the propulsion system.

I'm not an expert in exactly why that is, and we've recovered several different types, and it's once again it's a taxonomy where it's almost like, like not all white people at the same, right? Same idea where you might have like a species per se, but then there's sort of like subsets. Right. Now, is there a theory or is there information based on where these things are from?

And they're different ones are from different places? There is, but I never got access to that. And even if the information was, once again, how would you confirm that? Is it skeptical for a human intelligence officer?

You have some sort of NHI communicating to you, oh, I'm from Star System X, Y, and Z. Cool. Is that denial and deception? Activities, are you misdirecting?

You're from somewhere else. So even if they told us how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly obviously ways. But some of it seems, once again, extraterrestrial is part of the pie here, right?

There's, you know, there's ultra-terrestrial and other things. And it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while, and also seems so similar to us that I have questions. And once again, is this a rhetorical, I don't know the answer. It's like, well, it's just bioengineered.

Is this a break from our tree? Is this some sort of other technology, like chameleon type technology, if you will? I don't know the answer to that. So I think that's- Whether they're prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this.

Like, do they have answers, or do they just have theories? I am not certain of that, because I do not have that level of knowledge. And as the government rolls that out, I'm happy to parse that with American people and public, and kind of explain my opinion on things as gaps in information for myself is filled in. Because I'm not omnipotent, I didn't have full access, and I only know what I know.

And that's why I've treated this with such reverence, because even me going public, I'm like, fuck, I don't know what this is gonna trigger. Besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress, and I had to even resign my Air Force Commission to even fully retire, and I'm trying to get that fixed. I filed something with the Air Force Board a year ago, so I can actually retire and have my benefits, because I miss my promotional intent and all that other stuff. But I digress.

But certainly, there is such similarity that there was a concern and from a genomic perspective, and there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that, and what they found out. Worked to compare genomes from biological samples? Yeah, dead cadavers.

Yeah. So that's real. Oh, 100%. So there are dead for sure.

How do you know that for sure? I got to see the audio visual on that. You got to see what? Yeah.

So I got to be a little vague only because I want to protect the sources, because it may indicate a specific activity or operation, and these people were very patriotic, and they were just dead cadavers on the ground, because it was a trivial activity. You saw them physically, or you saw video of them? Video. Video.

So you saw a dead cadaver that was at a crash? Yes. So they filmed the crash, and they filmed these cadavers. How old is this footage?

I don't want to say. It's contemporary, but I don't want to reveal a particular operation, because it narrows it down. Right, but it's clear. It's not like you're looking at the 1950s, black and white.

It's clear. And do know, when I get that kind of information, I'm like, tell me what it is, what happened, and I put it out for collection, so to speak, and then I confirm it independently. Because I was very allergic to any kind of deception. In the advent of AI, sort of AI, you can create a very realistic.