259 - Kenneth Roth: Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, and How to Shame a Dictator

Support our sponsor, FarmKind, to fix factory farming: https://www.farmkind.givingThe code “ROBINSON” will increase your donation by 50% with a bump from large donors.Kenneth Roth is the Charles and Marie Robertson Visiting Professor at the Princeton School for Public and International Affairs. Until August 2022, he served for nearly three decades as the executive director of Human Rights Watch. In this episode, Robinson and Ken discuss his work with HRW and what he has been doing since. More particularly, they get into the details of how HRW operated, how shaming tactics can be deployed against figures like Putin, Trump, and Orban, Israel and Palestine, the relationship between genocide and ethnic cleansing, and more. For more, read Ken’s recent book, Righting Wrongs: Three Decades on the Front Lines Battling Abusive Governments (Knopf, 2025).Righting Wrongs: https://a.co/d/gHkbmmwOUTLINE00:00 Introduction00:00:53 Why Human Rights?00:08:23 How Does Human Rights Watch Work?00:14:04 Can Putin or Orban Be Shamed?00:21:14 Can Trump Be Shamed into Standing Up to Putin?00:26:53 Libya, Gaddafi, and Forcing the Release of Political Prisoners00:29:14 Fighting the Dreaded M23 Rebel Group in Congo00:31:56 Why Governments Always Violate Human Rights00:33:57 Is Torture Ever Justified?00:38:21 Facts and Investigations00:46:27 Verifying Starvation and Famine in Gaza00:51:29 Can Netanyahu Be Shamed?00:58:24 Genocide vs. Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine01:04:16 The United States’ Biggest Human Rights Violations01:09:24 Sudan: The World’s Worst Humanitarian Crisis