267: Plato's Dialogues: Meno

Hi welcome to the classical stuff you should know about the location books like philosophy most of the time old works of art plays Greeks Romans countrymen let me rears just yep sometimes they're and for which guys yeah my name is Graham oh my god oh my god this is incredible well boys and this is pretty we've been sitting we haven't been working on it we have to be happy to be happy to be there we have the nine of them my name is Graham don't say and I'm joined by hacking the age of hamburger here and and Tom is Maggie hello and we are going to be looking for a bright and color fish today because he's lost at sea and we need to find it it's a delightful children's book children's movie so it's a delightful children to be about and trap it young well I guess it's a little bit for his child and his child what happened got flushed or something I don't want to have to say movie but he ends up in like aquarium and then they find over the end well yeah that's a truck there's a truck there's a truck and stuff and yes we're going to go for Disney so here we go so oh my god this is not people wondering why we end up so in probably because we have a jagot pneumonia I'm just saying the moon is maybe over I think a mild to moderate case of walking the moon so it's like when they listen my lungs there was not a lot of wheezing but I wasn't getting better I was two weeks in and I was like oh my god I'm not waiting to get to come this because I just finished I finally went to the doctor I just finished my Z back and about like so I was like I was feeling like I was coming down with it yeah we had one of the teachers in our school who also got our compatriot and she was in the hospital for a week and a half there's been some more so if you want to be on the board and recording because I've been to we really do value guys and we're sorry we're able to get I would love to blame a little bit of my forgiveness this morning on you know what I had a million and this morning I like prepared for the the first three things I was going to go over here I'm going to play the first three things I was going to do over here I'm going to play the first three I'm going to play the first three where are they so there's you the fro there's apology and then I think I think it's like in any specific order I mean a couple of our it's it's Socrates walking into the judge's house and then we've been apology which is where Socrates defense himself and the most great what's the jail where he's like hey now you just you just you're sorry he's like I will do no justice to the city so me know is not actually hang with that other little narrative it's a little deal and it's really before sorry he's with that because he's a good and not at the core house so this is sort of it's a little thing I say it's fourth in the book that I'm currently doing with parents here at their toss it is the fourth dialogue and I promised all the first line and I was going to get virtue be taught where's my practice or not one of those is natural or we get some other way I can't wait to be taught right now for you into it like I think I'll remember is like we're going to be joining the sand bring me join me right now as whether not virtue can be actually right what's the point of education to think there's no there must be some way that a person is developed and grown and so yeah well the lines like you like take a kid and say I'm going to I'm a teacher virtue sign your for my classes I will have the virtue by the end of the year or more about you know you don't do it by going at the virtue you like you make them study a really hard topic or work on something difficult and they will develop the virtue through that so so practice so it's not taught it's teaching or practice and it's a practice so teaching has to be spoken what am I like could you say here's the virtue here's what you do now don't do it you do that but yeah so it's more like as a father to make you do the thing that you know but I mean I'm only if I start off by saying it's both because I will both have to verbally correct my son and then practice to like do to go forth from there okay you need to like theory which is a teaching you need to the body of the lesson which is a practice yeah okay so we just answer it I love to hear guys when we're actually I was it was it was it was it was a theory and I need to like invite into the lesson so you guys both say both great Socrates responds by saying I don't know virtue is so I can't really tell you if it's wired by teaching or practice because I literally can't find anyone who will tell me what is and I don't know what is myself it's looking for what virtue is like I definitely can't I don't know what one can and me know does that him you're just he was he was the teacher to stuff he had my a sAC are you like I'm at a once but which please invite me as to what virtue is Mr you know if you can't give George is you remember tell me your definition if you can tell me what the essence of virtue is maybe we can figure out if you talk he does me gorgeous I'd I look gorgeous I was preparing out almost two long so I'm different yeah gorgeous is one what is rhetoric oh that's what they'll listen I think that's one of the ones that's in a little book where we're doing I think it has it's a very large number of things okay so me no gives his first definition he's a few definitions I think I have three kind of outline here as to what what is the actual sorry I think I think This is the best day we've had in like two weeks. At this point I'm actually feeling pretty strong. For a long time I was like, I just thought I was running 50% power. Like I was really lost a lot of time.

I was talking about my brains out. Right now I have some DCDs so, so, what do you think? So his first definition, this is me, this is me, I was first try, I have to what what, and maybe I had to ask this question too. Can you guys meet a definition of virtue?

What is virtue? I feel like I'm gonna have a memorized. It was in just a straight shambre. Those are ten.

That's not, that's great, because that's exactly what me, no does. Good, yeah. Tell us a man, the same thing that's gonna have you. I mean, it's like a habit of action following between the two or two extremes.

Following between the two extremes of too much and too little, there is a, there's the team in definition of this. I feel like that, that's what I mean. I guess that's what it's like getting at, which is like yeah, they have it, an action that falls between two extremes. It's more like one, right?

Don't we think it's more than just the same between? Yeah, okay, I thought that was about everybody else's. Oh, sorry, no, I don't have the answer, I don't know. That's okay, that's not a criticism.

I've heard you coming out of there. Now I feel bad, because I should come with a and I feel like I feel like I feel like I feel like that's not a problem. I feel like I feel like I feel like I feel like I feel like I feel like I feel like I feel like I'm going to be getting back together. So I don't know.

I don't know, we've discussed it before, we talked about the name of the thing that's right. We definitely talked about this. So I just thought I would have it, I should prepare that, that's not me. Okay, so Mina says the virtue of man is he should know how to administer the state and in the administration of it, to benefit friends.

Are these enemies? Yeah, and it must also be careful not to suffer from himself. A woman's virtue, which you should know about that, may also be easily described. Her duty is to order her house and keep what is indoors and obey her husband every age, every condition of life.

You have her old male or female bond or free, has a different virtue. There are virtues and numberless and no lack of definitions of them. For virtue is relative to the actions and ages of each of us. In all of you and the same, maybe said, and Socrates is like, wow, I asked for what virtue is going to be a whole swarm.

Like numberless virtue, fantastic. Mina is going to get planted in the comments. Yeah, yeah. So, well, there's really a very well frame.

So Socrates points out, you're talking about like a whole bunch of examples of things. Sure, like these, like all kinds of things, like a whole swarm. But I want to know what is common to these. Can you tell me, like you give me some examples, you still haven't given me the essence of it, so the idols.

Yeah, and you say virtue changes with man or one child. Is it the same of strength or health? Or are those the same? Is it virtue kind of the same as that?

I think it's different. And Socrates points out that neither the state nor the house can be ordered without temperance without justice. So all men must do good in some of the same ways. So if I'm ordering the state or ordering the house, both of those need justice and temperance.

And it's not just a man thing and one thing. It's not just a man thing and one thing. They're both participating in this thing. Yes, they both have this some common virtue running through it.

So he's like, okay, so again, what is virtue? So, Mina goes for definition number two. Okay, fine. The power of governing mankind.

So your thoughts on this. Is that a good definition of virtue? The power of governing mankind. No, because you can use that power for good or bad.

Like, that doesn't seem like a good thing. Great. It doesn't seem like a more valence on a way that would be good. Sure.

Yeah, that would be what I say too. It doesn't have a good power. Exactly. So he's wanting the form of virtue.

He wants to be able to have don't just give me examples. Give me the thing that I can recognize in the while and be able to say that is virtue because of this reason. Exactly right. He also points out that if power of governing mankind, there's a lot of people that only work for.

Like children. Right? He says there was a virtue to every age and every form of being. doesn't work for slaves.

Doesn't work for any of those people. So presumably like either they don't have virtue or not really actually talking about virtue. So something is a little bit screwy. Right?

Mino names. So he's like, okay, I'm going to ask you. Like you've given me a thing. It's not really working.

So what are the virtues? And Mino names of you. He says courage, temperance, wisdom, and magnanimity. And there are many others.

And Socrates is like, yes, I hear you. But what is common to them all? And Mino is confused about what he's asking. He's like, I'm just giving you all the virtues.

And Socrates is like, all right, look now. For example, if we're talking about color, I've said tell me what color is. Or in this case, whiteness. And he's like, that's not what color actually is.

Or for example, shape. If I say tell me what a shape is. Or then you give me a circle. That's an example of shape.

But that's not shape in itself. Because there's also squares. And there's also orange. And there's also blue.

I'm just going to go down a rabbit hole. And so he gives these examples. And Mino kind of goes down a rabbit hole. Or a rabbit trail.

Or a bunny trail. But a turtle hole. Anyway, he goes down a rabbit hole. So he goes down a rabbit hole.

So Mino kind of takes the bait and says, OK, so what exactly is shape? What is that? And Socrates trolls a little bit. Well, it's the thing that when you're trying to think, I'm trying to tell it.

That's like, all right, Socrates. Because that's like, I challenge you to find someone who could prove that in true. But and so Mino's like, all right, well, give me the actual form of it. Like tell me what you mean.

When you mean shape instead of just when people talk about it, it's already like fine. I will give you an example. No, I want an example. For example, I will tell you the essence of it.

So can you guys give me the definition? What is the essence of shape? I have no idea. The point about shape is the boundary of an object in space.

Point Donaldson. Socrates says it is race solid ends. He limits. That's all it makes.

Are we likely also? So you told me that. Mino's like, then what's a color? Socrates.

So what's a color? The particular light of a shape. OK, pretty good. I think we've vancillated science since this era.

And now we can say it's the single wave length of light not absorbed by the shape itself. It's reflected in the core eyes that process that through. Like we have a lot more to say about what exactly a color is. It's a wave length of light.

Although we don't like light back to here. But we're still working on that part. But we have a lot more to say. He says.

And this is kind of great. Color is an effluence of existence. It's a thing put off by existence that enters certain passages in our body. So to quote an effluence of form, come and write with sight and palpable to sense.

So for him, and you're really enough, he's not that far off. It's a thing that existence just sort of like exudes. It's like a secretion of things. And it enters one of the passages in our body.

Just like sound is an effluence of evidence. There's a sound or a sound or a sound. Does that fit a definition? Or does that fit a definition?

So sound comes off of things like this. And it's particular passages in our bodies. Are you right? Snow goes through those.

Do you say this was a definition of color? Yes. So color is not so bad. So you just put a picture of that.

And it's palpable to sense. And so it's like, that's what color is. And it's like, OK. All right, that makes sense.

So Socrates says, all right, I have answered your questions about what shape and color are. You still have an answer in mind about exactly what virtue is. So if you would please, please educate me for. I still do not know exactly what virtue is.

And I would love to answer your question. So can you give me that essence one more time? So is it going to be so uncomfortable like the effluence of actions that enter our souls? No.

No. I mean, it's another swing of this. I mean, I'm honest. The desire of things honorable and the power of a kingdom.

So one thing good thing is something to be able to get them. No, it's not the exception. But like the attack will be the one thing like how you take it. And so I can't break what the good end of that end of that end.

Or as honorable as just on, he's going to say honors when everybody praises and that doesn't, people can praise bad things and honor you for bad things. OK. No points for either of you. So Socrates says, so there's something to his evil in this case.

And some who's are good. So in your definition, right? If it's his ironing on things, there must be people who want bad things. And you know, it's like, yeah.

So some want evil. And he says, yes. And he goes, do those people who want evil? Do they think those people are good?

Or do they know they are bad for them? Like those people that these guys want? And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, some people know they're good, some people know they're bad. And they want the evil just the same.

And Socrates is like, two possess them. They want these things to have them and have them with them. And he goes, yeah, absolutely. And he goes, so do they want evil and know they are bad.

Sorry. So some suppose they're good. And those who want the evil's, they're hurt by these evil's. So people think they are good as a mistake.

But the people actually want the evil, they're hurt by them. Yes. And he goes, yeah, presumably, yes. And Socrates says, and they thereby become miserable.

He says, yes. He's like, nobody wants to be miserable. Right? And he goes, yeah, nobody wants to be miserable.

So nobody's so they're mistaken. So nobody actually wants the evil. And everybody desires is good. So if that's where you literally have a message, everybody wants one's good.

So it's not just a desire. Everybody has that. So far. I mean, I agree.

So there's always, Socrates makes this claim and you throw as well. And every year, this is student that's like, what about just like sociopaths that don't just like don't know, or people that just like don't want happiness. They actually really want an evil. And it's like, I feel like those are the exceptions that we're the rule.

So generally speaking, people all operate under some sort of sense of wanting to be happy. Well, it's just what I'm like addicts. But they have a vision of happiness. Or they've gotten to the point where they've like, find themselves so much that they're like, they're these, again, exceptions that we're the rule.

And they've taken, their bodies are, their bodies are chemically addicted to a thing that they know is killing them. But like, they're slaves to it now. But they really do desire to go to the desires of the office. Exactly.

But the original desire was to like, have a good night or to get or to get something that's basically evil. So it was still a movement towards a vision of happiness and goodness, even if it was mistaken, which is what he's saying. Yeah. So Socrates says, if it's not the desire, right, then it must be power getting it.

Maybe that's it. You said desire and power to get it. So it must be just the power. And he goes, absolutely.

That's what it is. And Socrates says, is any motive doing it? Yeah. Exactly.

Even if it's unjust or dishonest, and he goes, no, no, no, that's vice. Can't do that. And he goes, OK. So some part of your virtue must accompany your acquisition.

So it's not just the acquisition. There has to be virtue kind of hook it onto it. He goes, yeah, all right. And without them, the mere acquisition wouldn't be virtue.

You know, so it's absolutely. And he goes, so you know, that way is vice. So not getting it in a bad way. And even lacking those goods, those things you would have gotten, that would be virtue.

And he goes, yes. I guess. And so it's like, OK. So then the getting of it doesn't matter.

But whatever is accompanied by justice or honesty, and whatever is devoid of justice is vice. So that's, and he goes, oh, I can't be otherwise in my judgment. And that's a direct quote. So he's given that definition, and he's pointing out like, how you get it really matters.

And if you don't get it on or honestly, but so you don't have it, well, you don't have the good. And it's not desiring the good. But you're still virtuous. And so it definitely can't be that definition.

You've given. Socrates says, please, our problem. Each of these is a part of virtue. Still having immediate essence.

And so that's how he's confused. Anything done with the part of virtue is virtue. But I don't know the whole virtue. And he'll give me pieces.

And he goes, and then he goes on this little monologue. I don't mean. I get what people talk about you. And they say that you're so annoying.

You're, as I heard rumors. What you do is just confuse people and make themselves and make them down everything. And you're like a pure fish that's too fine. So it's subject.

And Socrates is like, man, they weren't kidding. But I also do it myself. The poor people should do it myself. That's what's happening.

I'm confused. I don't know what's going on. I just want to put people in that phrase. I thought you were just making up that phrase.

No, he's not talking about this. I just want to talk about it. You think? Probably.

Yeah. So pure fish. It's the flat poor people fish. That's what they call it.

I don't know if that is. I'm going to talk about it. The comment book you know is an electric ray. So the thing that works, where you ask if it is even worth investigating into something that you don't know about.

Because how is it even possible? If you get the thing, you don't even know that that's what you want it because you don't know anything about it. And you don't know how to go about it. So it's almost impossible to try to get knowledge that you do not have or find out something about something you know nothing about.

What are your thoughts on that? I don't know about something. How do you inquire? I know that you've actually got what you're looking for because you don't know anything about it.

This is not fair enough. Yes. Meant fair enough is. You try backwards.

You try people who do know. I can sense the people who do know. It's just voting. It's just voting machine.

What is good taste? Have people with good taste and they agree on something. It's objective beauty. Who declares objective?

The people with taste. We're back to the same thing. What is good? What is good?

The form of beauty exists out there. And we just remember the thing we've never known. I'm going to say from my memory, his weird belief is that we have embedded memories of everything and teaching is just uncovering it. So he's likely privative.

And then he's just like, kid, how do you know? So he basically says their profits are saying that we are essentially reincarnated. Human soul is immoral, which means that it's gone for several lifetimes before. And when we are in the real world, we are not actually discovering anything about anything.

We are simply remembering all that we already have. And that means that inquiry is worth it. Because we're just remembering stuff we already knew. It's not trying to get something you have no knowledge of before.

We already have knowledge. It's just sort of like recovering it. And that way we can get out of a meal paradox, which is you cannot inquire on something you don't know about. People know about sort of a game.

Like what is that? Or there's only four certain types of topics. It's like you've never read it before. I can't have a number of that book.

You have a book in existing past life. Well, you're in one of the news. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think he's thinking more about like, I think he's thinking more about like, first principles and forms and more axiomatic things. Or the givenness of human nature. So virtues. And he would say, so then they think it's going to be over time.

He's going to change over time. So you know, Plato maybe has this immortality of the soul and you're going back and remembering it. Later Christian philosophers when they're played with like, well, this was not a moral and way to play with things. But what maybe we can say when an inscription when it says man is made in God's image, this man in God's image is the thing that is remembering when you're learning something new.

It's the rational fact that he's a man is this thing. And so when you learn something, you're remembering what God knows. Which one of them that way? We're talking about it.

We're talking about it. But he's right. He's demonstrating this by calling over one of the millions of slaves. And then essentially teaching him math.

He says, if we take this side and we double it, now we have how long? It's like, two, it's too long. And he's like, okay, if we have a side like that. And then we stretch it up, what will the area of the square be?

And he's like, no, this man walks in. He's like, oh, four. He's like, okay, if we double each side, what will it be? And he kind of shows it can walk him through it.

And then at the end of it, if it was a little slave who essentially has no education, kind of knows how to calculate the area of something. And Sarti says, isn't that amazing? Did anyone teach him this? I mean, he's like, no.

It's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, did you know that there's a pocket knife in my room? And you're like, no, then if I open this drawer and you look inside, there's a pocket knife and you're like, no, I remember. You're remembering my pocket knife is there. And so it's, yes, it's questions.

But conclusion of Socrates is nobody talking this. There's no, you can know this unless he had been taught geometry. So he must be remembering from previous life. So there's more, therefore, we know the word about your stupid paradox.

We can't find all kinds of things because it's stuff we already know. Which is a chinky argument. But it's any more doing like, showing that we get to truth because we have, we have this dialectical faculties where we can answer questions. We can answer questions.

When we answer questions, we can get to a place of knowing about something that we didn't know about before. So just by asking questions, I'm an eliminating wrong answers and getting to right answers that you can observe, you get to a true thing, which is you now have a formula for calculating area. And this is the Socrates rational method. He wants to ask questions to eliminate examples of virtue to eliminate what isn't virtue to get to a formula that you can then say, just like how you now know how to apply the area of a square, you now know how to apply virtue to a life.

That's what he's trying to do with dialectic, but it works with math, but the question is, does it work with these kinds of things like virtue? Yeah. And what I was thinking about when I was on the drive down here is, how do we distinguish in our own minds between those two things between the function of our logical faculties and memory? What's the difference?

And memory? Well, remember things, right? How would you delineate it? What is the actual difference in what's happening in your mind?

Is it logic like I'm thinking through the thing versus memory? Like logic is a present thing that I'm doing and memory is recalling a passing? Yeah, but in either way, I was just kind of like in both instances, the answer will pop up your brain eventually. And I think maybe if the memory comes undone, but that's not always true.

Sometimes it takes a time to experience. Every experience, right? Memory is a thing that you have experience before, whereas logic is just like a faculty that you, like a program that you can run. Okay.

Yeah. I agree with that. Maybe that's what's going on. I mean, they talk about reason all the time, which is crazy that they don't make that connection.

Like what is happening with this slave is the function of those rational faculties that, yes, even a slave can have those. Like I think what you're talking about being a piece of all meant, like they can all do this. They all have a faculty. It's not just memory.

And he's clearly walking the kid through this. You can just walk it up and say, tell me how to do it. So I don't know. I find this a little bit pretty hard as well.

It's kind of a ridiculous little piece. But it's, yeah, I mean, but it does open up really that sort of found questions about like, why does walking through logical thing, or sorry, these are basic asking questions to eliminate wrong answers? How can it, like two pages get you to a pretty profound statement of truth about a square? But the same function cannot get you to profound statements of truth about virtually.

Like, Sarky's never gets to the algorithm or the answer, the formula of virtue of us. It's not a great answer. But the thing is, but the math answer is a great answer. So this is a question.

A big question of humanity is like, why isn't it, why is reason alone not enough to get you to answers about happiness? In virtue of this, this is Sarky's answer to, you call this, you call this, you know paradox. Which is how you know something. How you know that the answer you get is true.

And the answer is, I remember the answer is that the answer is that you are, you knew it before, and by asking questions, you're like, I'm covering it. And then the reason you know it's true is because your reason is telling you that's true. And you remember it before. Yeah.

It's not a great answer. But if you separate the re-encouration thing with that question about, like, believing that, like, when you come up to a statement of a logical statement that when you, when he says, hey, how many, if you double the size of this line, how many boxes are there in two, like that is a true statement. If we have the capacity to make true statements and recognize truth in those statements, why does that function not able to apply to everything in our life? That's sort of the, what's behind that?

What's behind that? What's behind that? What's behind that? What's behind that?

What's behind that? What's behind that? Which is true regards to virtue or is the F of virtue, like just a different kind of truth than the idea? Perhaps, perhaps something not as self-evident.

Certain philosophical truths are easy. Is it good to steal your neighbor's stuff and then punch him in the neck? No, that's not good. That's an easy philosophical truth.

Or positive easy philosophical truth is people are motivated by a vision of happiness. Yeah, sure. Those things are easy. Just like in math, certain things are easy to identify as like, yes, this is true.

When you start getting into imaginary numbers and really high level math, it gets a little harder. And exercising your reasonable faculty doesn't make it as an aspect. That's why we have only a few math majors now. So I'd say just like in philosophy, there's easy stuff that we can quickly recognize.

And there's hard stuff. The same is true in logic. When I work my student logic, we have a number of logical operators when we do some logic. You can actually eliminate most of those with complicated replacements and get down to only a few operators that can do most of logic.

Like you only do basically. Yeah, exactly. That stuff is more complicated and harder for non-creators to kind of tackle is how to get yourself from many logical operators. They're essentially too.

But can be done. And so I think it's just levels of complexity. It's a good way to do a lot of operators. What's your opinion?

Is it an if then an. And so you need one that has the overlap between the two and you need the one that has the not overlap between the two. Those are the two and then you can get everything else from there. That's why we're waiting on hands for that.

So check out YouTube. So we have a demonstration of the slave. People are like, okay, so what's the model? We can actually inquire and think about it.

We don't know about it. We have to be solved that. Let's get back to the little virtue thing. And Socrates, so they're like, can virtue be taught.

It's like fine. We don't know what virtue is. Cool. Let's talk about and we're just going to leave that.

Maybe like in science, we don't quite know what you're doing with small hypothesis. Test it out. See if it works. And then we'll move on.

So we're just going to ask, can virtue be taught. We're just going to tackle that without saying what virtue is. We're going to ask, is it a thing that can be taught? No, we're going to do.

So he says, isn't only knowledge taught. That makes sense. So it's like, okay, if virtue is knowledge, then it can be taught. So is virtue knowledge.

It's well, virtue is good. But it might be one of those, virtue is a good. It might be one of those good that's outside knowledge. There's knowledge, good.

And then there's other good. It's maybe like health. But if knowledge embraces all good, knowledge is over-encompassing, then virtue is knowledge. And therefore it can be taught.

So I'll put together those syllogism. All virtue is good. If all virtue is good. And all good is knowledge.

Then virtue is knowledge. It's like, all good things are profitable. But health and wealth and beauty are good. But they can also harm us if we don't do it right.

Too much wealth and wealth in this situation. You run too much. Your hair falls out. Beauty and the trouble.

So really, they should need to be able to guide in some of the groans and wisdom. You're beauty? I'm like, six. I'm sorry.

Wow. Okay. I never call them. I never call them.

I never call them. I never call them. I never call them. I never call them.

I never call them. I never call them. I never call them. I never call them.

So look at there. So it's like the same as true of character traits. So virtue must be a sort of wisdom or prudence. And it's a wisdom.

And wisdom is that much profit. And wisdom or prudence about guiding how we do stuff. Because all those goods are there. But they all have to be kind of under wisdom.

And wisdom brings us good stuff. So if virtue is wisdom, it's a little bit of a talk. And it's like, right. We got it.

If virtue is wisdom, virtue must be taught. And it goes, nah, but what for wrong here? Wouldn't something that's taught have teachings and cycles. Like if virtue can be taught, there would be teachers.

And there would be people learning it. And he goes, I don't know any of those. I don't know anybody who's out there teaching virtue. Luckily, we've got our rich friend over here.

Let's ask him. Let's ask him. So let's go over to him. And it says, hey, do any teachers or virtue?

I've got the means to do it. So do you and tell you what? Those guys who claim they do it. I'd say clear them all those so fists.

Stay away from those guys. I hate those guys there. A bunch of grifters will take all your cash. So stay away from them.

And Socrates is like, oh, well, have you like, gone to them? We're going to touch on the tent with a pole. So you don't actually have experience with these guys. He's like, no, never will I.

They're a bunch of swimmers. And he's like, so you're criticizing people. You have no experience. And the fact that this is one of the guys that is a witness against Socrates in his trial, he's one of the guys that brings it to the court case against Socrates.

Oh, that's sad. I'm trying to include him. He's going to have a dirt door right now, though. He's like undermining everything he says.

Yeah, a little bit of a guy. There's no disciples. There's no teachers. Virtue is not thought.

Therefore, can't be knowledge. We are at the same spot again. But perhaps there's another guy for action. There's not strict knowledge.

It's not the same thing. It can't be taught. But still works. You guys have any guesses?

It might be. I don't know. Maybe you're born with it. Close.

He says it is true opinion. So different shape and knowledge. And knowledge is like, okay, it's like a faith. Almost yes.

So if I say I know that there's like a shop up in this other country or up in this other city where you can buy that same bus cheaper, right? I have been there. I bought the rug. That is knowledge.

I know. My buddy who has never been up to that city, he just kind of knows the economic flow of things and his opinion, his opinion is that there's going to be a shop up there where you can buy the rug for cheaper. Right? Because there's actually a rug.

He's correct. But his opinion, right? He's never been there. He's never seen a rug shop.

He's never bought the rug. He's not know this for sure. It is a true opinion, though. That's how they're different.

Both of those would those end up in you buying cheaper run. Yeah. So it's one more valuable than the other. I would change what you like.

The outcome is exactly the same. Because I would give you the knowledge is better because it's angry. Troopians tend to like flitter away because they're not anchored by any real actual experience. But it's actually pointing out in the real thick things, as far as telling you how to act in the world, they're the same.

It's exactly the same. And a virtue isn't knowledge because it's certainly not taught. But it's wisdom. It tells us how to act and how to use all these goods and get the profitable to us.

It must just be true opinion. So how does a true opinion can't get to us? Who's our buddy that knows about the rug store? So his thought is that's very much like people who are divine, like the oracles, who just you walk up and they tell you this is what's going to happen in your life.

You are going to do this. This is where you're going to go, they're no, they're no for sure, but they're true opinions. And they come to us from the divine. Their definition of the divine is very different than what ours was.

But for them, much of the divine comes entirely unbidden from the skies. And true opinions are like this. They do not come from knowledge. They are not taught.

They are just opinions. They call it man, poets. Exactly. Kind of from nowhere.

And this is the thing that is our guide in the world. And so the people who are virtuous are likely to divine because they're virtues. Their guide for their action comes as a gift from the gods. And therefore, virtue no, cannot be taught.

It does come by nature, but kind of like a divine nature. And that's why we say a virtue is people that they're divine. Is this the same thing as Lewis's stable sentiments? It's like, it's not maybe something you can come to with a logical syllogism.

It's not something that you can teach, but it is a good thing and I'm a self and it's like, when you see it, it's not the people you admire it, and it does have utility and that does make you happier in a mixed situation better. But you can't necessarily sort of teach it. It's just, they are true opinions about variety. So you would say that stable sentiments cannot be taught.

I was just, I'm going to want you to start using. This is something I want to do with. I want to find out how right he is. And this is why I asked earlier if virtue would think that could be taught.

I think this is something that I think is right. I think it's right. It is ultimately something you take on faith. You take it's like, it is the right opinion.

It's like the humanity from its outset has said that the no-believe, the noble and gallant thing to do is to be virtuous in life. And if you're really wanting to get like, modern with it and like really break down to a logical thing, you're not going to get to a conclusion. But like, is that what you're saying? Whether it's, can be taught or whether it's a practice.

Does taught just mean I can talk, I speak about it and that's how it's going to be. I think that's what you're talking to me. Because I'm just afraid of doing that in practice. No, he means that in a way that when he's done with the slave with math.

That's what he means. You can't like that with virtue. You can talk to people through their words right now. So I can teach you what virtue is.

But then suddenly you actually follow that, maybe? But I would have it in my mind the next time I'm big with something. Like, if you were talking to a 15-year-old and you're showing them the square on the ground, like when you double it, they're going to, like the right answer is that there's nothing double. But if you talk to a 15-year-old and you say the right thing to do is to be obedient to the authorities that you would place under.

They're not going to say like, yeah, but these are all the exceptions when I'm not going to do that. And if you say, but those are the wrong, that's not what you should be doing. They're going to say, who? What's the difference with when you read Sir Glenn and you read this and you try your best.

But we don't be perfect in that we're still doing our best. Like, you taught them a moral thing in that, by talking to that book, which I know from talking to students, like, they talk with them. That's what the story matters to them. It's something that we're trying to think about in their lives to make come to situations.

Didn't you teach them virtue? I taught them that the book holds that opinion. That's true is it is. Well, I also think, I think the book is, the book has the true, the book does not give you logical reasons as to why it's great to do.

It's just a common example of the right answer. We've taught the book, which shows the more philosophical lesson, which is it's, so I'm, I've taught them that Sir Glenn, Which they either described to an effort of. Yeah. I haven't taught them the idea.

I haven't taught them the form of virtue. I've shown them that this book has a true opinion of virtue. So your opinion is all virtues. So your group is actually a group of sorry.

I don't think you can teach virtue. I think it's you at some point you need to accept that this is the givenness of the world. Is that like either you're not, it's different between like being taught and being convinced. You can convince us that this is right.

But like when sorry, he says teach it to me. He wants the form of things. And I don't think we can see the form of things until we see. Well, it's a price.

So you disagree. And this is where I think maybe finally this episode is actually coming to play. And then you will come on the screen. I'm going to do the form of virtue is that I can will that anyone in my situation would do the exact same thing.

That's it. I don't have the faculty, the facility we can't do. I don't have anything about it. So his point is that like if I can't, the one is the prime directive, the get some some word from the nine didn't.

Yeah. Yes, there's that. What was it called? He had some word for it.

But his point is that the very form of virtue. Okay. The problem is not the prime. That's a close list.

Is that if I can will that every man should do the same in my situation. People were screaming at the radio. That is the if I can if I can will that everyone should make it so. And then that is the form of virtue.

And so your your fact is your thought. Like I think there's that. So we can have the form and I actually kind of agree with me. Well, if we're talking about what the form of virtue or at least moral conduct is there's that we also have different areas that I have.

Google that is virtue is a mean or average between deficiency and excess. So they care to the loud person to act well and do their own work well. And if you know where we're going. That's you would say and will everyone should do the same in that situation.

I think you know what, I think this is a concept you can teach. My but you I think you would go further to say that I can show that to a kid. I can not convince him to do it. And the actual doing is the virtue and I think scripturally way in the same right people who hears here the word versus doers of the word.

I can have a kid here this all they want doesn't need actually going to do it. The virtue and salvation. That's interesting. I think and here's my postulate is that I think I'm actually agree with what you said earlier.

I think it's a combination of the two. I think there's a teaching element for exactly what virtue is. So for example hearing that's going like yeah, he wasn't perfect. But gosh, he did pretty dang good and there is a allowance for that.

He loved it. He loved it. Yes. In the moral realm.

You can love goodness and scrub a little bit and still love goodness and not yourself. That is a moral concept that can be taught to students that isn't a family versus like or even the example of doing others as they would be as you have them to you is better than you don't want to do. That is a moral advantage. A different concept is better.

So in that sense that can be taught. But I also believe it is in view by practice and this was your point. Like I can give all that to a kid but if you don't actually ever go through hardship or experience virtue delivering the profit that play goes up or become or bring health or happiness or better life. And that is what virtue should do to everyone practices it is that I mean even if your circumstances are bad you should end happy person right that is kind of where virtue ends it.

There is a practice element. And I think that's why Socrates never saw any teachers of virtue is that it's a two step thing. I can give you the form of it. I can tell you what virtue is.

I can like lists on the table sentiments up on the board. But for a kid to actually work those into his own life takes practice. And this is what Aristotle said. He said can be taught.

And the way we teach it is by making them do the thing in small ways before they have to do the thing in big ways. So give them little pieces of ways to be courageous. Before they have to go to work make them go talk to a relative. Or make them own up to something they get wrong.

Because eventually they will have to be courageous in a much bigger situation and have practice of doing that again and again and again. Well in view in them the virtue that you want later. That's really hard to do as a teacher and a program to actually work out into a kid. I don't know what's apparently.

It's hard. Or it looks like a weird psychological manipulation. This is the whole class of education thing like teacher virtue. And that's the weird thing about it is a lot of schools claim to do this.