27 - Is Unlimited PTO a Positive or Negative?

The marketing movement. My refine left. First of all, I wanted to welcome everybody back to the marketing movement podcast. We are here today with Jordan and Hope from my team.

I'm so excited to speak with them about. And this is going to be a great one because our topic today is around PTO. And so the topic today is is unlimited PTO a scam or a value add. And I have seen so many articles about this.

In fact, I recently saw one that called it bait and switch. And so I think it's going to be an amazing conversation to speak through what's really going on with unlimited PTO. Are people actually using it? How does leadership think about it?

There's so much to unpack. But first we're going to start off with intro. So I'm first going to let Hope introduce herself. Hello, my name is Hope.

I use she and they pronounce. I'm the people operations coordinator here at Refined Labs. I've only been working here for almost two and a half months now, I think. So I'm still pretty new.

But I've heard everyone say I feel like you've been working here forever after a very short time. I've been loving it so far. I'm based in Chicago. And I'm very fortunate to have been invited to work here by my friend Jordan, who we get to speak with today.

And yeah, I'll leave that back for now. Perfect. Well, yeah, two months equates to two years. So, thank you.

Congratulations. And next up is Jordan. Yes. Jordan Anderson.

I'm people operations manager here at Refined Labs. And I've been on staff since last August. So I don't even know how many months that is, but it's been a whirlwind. I was one of the first people hires were Jessica.

So it's so great. We're about to hit 100 employees. I'm just like, Jessica, you have built this team. You know, built this team, this company.

So this is a really exciting week for us at Refined Labs. But yeah, I managed everything from onboarding from a candidate offer letter to the first 90 days and really focused my efforts on employee engagement, retention and wellness. Perfect. Well, I'm so excited to chat with both of you.

And for those of you who have not heard the podcast before, because I've done, I believe two of you have been on the podcast. I've been on the podcast since already. But I am Jessica Williams, VP of people. I'm located in the Dallas area.

I've been here. I joined September, I think like a couple of weeks after Jordan. So Jordan, I've been holding down together for quite a while. And like she said, we just hit 100 employees and actually in Q2, we're thinking about adding like 50 more people.

So by the end of year, we're going to be at 200. So we are growing leaps and bounds. And one of the biggest reasons why we grow is our culture. And one of the underpinnings of our culture is very laid back.

I would actually call this very modern and like liberated as far as I'm culture if I had to describe it. But for both of you, what drew you to Refined Labs? Like why are you here? I start off Jordan, let's start with you.

Absolutely, absolutely. So for me, it was the culture. When I learned that Refined Labs had no meeting Fridays, had unlimited PTO, also had flexible work that really appealed to me because I was just at a point in my career where I was just kind of frustrated with the reality. I'm like, oh, work is so hard.

And like I don't have time to like go to my therapist and I don't have time for all the things that I enjoy that are life giving from me. So when I heard that, Refined Labs offered that to employees and offered just like a certain level of freedom, it just felt too good to be true. In the time that I've been here, it's not it's actually for real for real, which have been a huge surprise for me because I was also changing industries as well. I've been in nonprofit and this was my first time in the private sector and I had admittedly very low expectations and Refined Labs has far surpassed any expectations that I had coming into it.

Yeah. Well, quick question on that. What were your expectations? I'm interested in that.

Yeah. I honestly thought that it would just be super profit driven. I didn't think that it would be as people centered as it was. And what I'm learning for my colleagues is that most companies aren't, you know, even joining this team and I'm super new to people operations and in all the things that are read online.

Before, you know, how prepping for my interview year, I was like, oh, okay, people operations is very different than human resources. And then even thinking about that name, it should have been an indicator for like the type of company that that would refine labs and be super people centered and that I didn't expect it to be. So yeah, I love that. Okay.

Hope what about you? Yeah. I'm going to see if I have anything to add because my reasons for coming almost verbatim was Jordan said. And also hearing that Jordan worked here, hearing her experience once she did come and realized it's a past her expectation.

It was really exciting for me to imagine working in a place like this. I also come from more of a nonprofit background and I'm used to putting my passion into my work and being able to get really excited about my work, but that can only go so far when you're not supported holistically at your job. And so, yeah, hearing about the perks that come with working at Refine Labs, particularly unlimited PTO, but also things like no meeting Friday, the whole way that the job description was written with like clarifying and attracting people letting them know that if you feel like you have imposters in a job, if you feel like you're not sure if you're a good fit for the job, we still want you to apply. And just like that welcoming culture, since I come here too, just this constant affirmation of other employees constant, just shout out for one another, just a huge environment of collaboration.

And honestly, it's been kind of culture shock for me coming here, like being in a space where everyone actually enjoys doing their work and feels like they have the time and the space that they need to be able to do what they need and also rest. That has been incredible for me and has totally changed the rhythm of my life since I started working here. That's a really good thing. I was thinking back to when I interviewed what it was for me, and I think for me what came up was, and I know authenticity can be like a loaded word nowadays, but for me, I was truly myself during the interview process.

Like I did not fake it at all. In fact, at one point, I think Megan and I were talking to my first interview and she's like, how do you feel about HR? And I said something like, burn it all to the ground. And she's like, oh, but everybody that actually knows me knows that that's how I feel about it.

Like burn it all to the ground, we need to start over. But I said that in the interview. And I remember thinking, okay, either they're going to think like, okay, this girl can really do it, or they're going to think, oh no, she's not the person for us. And I thought, it's literally before we hung up the phone, Megan was like, get to Chris tomorrow.

And I was like, sure can. So I thought, okay, well, I guess that wasn't so bad. But the fact that I didn't have to fake it and pretend like, okay, HR, you know, I think HR get the really bad rap. And so to Jordan's point earlier about people up in the difference is thinking about like, how can we be progressive and inclusive instead of being like, I feel like a lot of HR teams are like a subset of legal.

Like they're there to tell you what not to do, not what you can do and like how to progress forward. And so that is definitely something that I was looking for when I looked at what was fine though, and it was very clear to me that I was like, if I can say all this stuff in an interview, they know what they're getting. So yeah, I definitely think the culture and like just the ability to be authentic goes a long way here. So I agree with both of you on that.

And speaking of the culture, like if you had to describe it, like how would you even describe it to someone that doesn't know anything about refined labs? Because I find that fascinating when I'm doing interviews on like, how do I even describe how good it is to be here without people feeling like, no, she must be like, you know what I mean? Like it can't be true. It's like utopia or something.

So how would you even describe it to somebody? Yeah. I think what I mentioned about the culture shock piece, I feel like one thing that was just like, job-dropping for me was entering in and immediately being embraced by everyone. Like everyone reaching out to me, people sending me individual messages in this like channel, of course, like having everyone sign the welcome.

And then like my first team time that I attended, we were just talking, I think we were just like sharing professional advice that we had received, but it just felt so easy to like relate to other people on the team and feel like be able to like humanize everyone and go, okay, the fact that we are, you know, spread out throughout the nation and even a little bit beyond does not like change the fact that we can still be really interconnected. And I really felt that I feel like there's a lot of intentionality around engaging employees and making sure that everyone feels like they have a place here and that they can be authentic, that they can use their creativity and their freedom to the full extent. I found that in my position just kind of like mentioning ideas here and there, just being like, here's something that, you know, I'm going to put out there, see if anyone like thinks that it could fly and then like immediately just being like, okay, that's a great idea. Run with it, you know, like make it happen.

So I've, yeah, I really enjoy that. I've been impressed with the amount of like trust that's put into employees and then the support that's immediately offered to get the ball rolling with whatever it is that people want to introduce into the space. Absolutely. It's funny because if you join my team, just know if you come up with some ideas, do it, but you're right.

Every time somebody's like, I have an idea, I'm like, okay, that's great. So when are you going to be starting? Right. I trust you to get it done, but no, that's, I think that's a great thing because that also allows you to grow because one of the things that I really hated when I was in my early career is I would have these awesome ideas, but they would get taken away from me.

So I would give an idea and then it was somebody else's job. And I just remember thinking, I'm never going to do that to people. Like if it's your idea, I'm going to let you do it. I'm going to support you, but I'm not going to take it from you.

And so that's just really, really important to me. So it's funny that you pointed that out because I'm very intentional about like not taking someone's idea from them. Like you should be able to own it. So I think that's a good one.

Jordan, what about you? I would definitely say I go again, I go everything that Hope said, but definitely a culture of just freedom, you know, we're treated like working adults and we're not micromanaged. It's very much a culture of trust, a culture of mutual respect and also a lot of accountability. And I feel like for the first time, I think in my professional career, all those things are balanced very well.

And I also think there's this like internal humility, especially like on the leadership team that it's like, okay, we know we can be doing it better. We're not quite the best. We're always going to aim to be even better and iterate up how what we're doing because I think some companies can definitely fall into this chocolate. We're so great.

Like you have no room to improve and you think you've kind of reached the pinnacle. And so I appreciate that there's always this mindset of like, how can we improve what we're doing? How can we get feedback? I've never been a little bit organization that asks for so much feedback from, you know, an orderly engagement survey to the full surveys to even in one at once, like, you know, asking questions about belonging and inclusion and stress and things like that.

It's a very people center. Yeah. So my, if I had to choose a word, I would probably choose the word transparency. I think as far as the leadership team, even just me personally, I aim to be super transparent.

So I probably stare actually more than I should with my team, but it's like a thing of, to me, it's like, I trust you, you're on my team. I want you to even know what I'm thinking about. Like even if we don't move forward, I want you to understand my thoughts because I think a lot of times it's like, oh, this person is my leaders. I'm just going to kind of follow them, but you're not understanding why they're leading you in a certain way.

So for me and the people team, I always want you to know why I think this way. So like how do we even come up with this way? Like if we change directions, you guys know why, like why do we just think we should do this? And so I think transparency just goes a long way for you guys.

One to trust me. And then two to trust like what we're doing as an organization. So I think it's too bold. It's like the leadership, but also the organization as a whole.

So with that being said, transparency and trust, the topic of the hour is unlimited. Oh, so like, what do you give me your thoughts on the impact of unlimited PTO? And first of all, like I'll just ask, do you think it's a scam or do you think it has an value? So Jordan will start with you.

I think that it can be a scam. I definitely think that it can be a scam if it's not implemented mindfully. It's only implemented to as like a cost cutting measure because there is, you know, this phenomenon in some companies where people actually take less vacation time when they have unlimited vacation time. And I think that some of the reasons for that are unclear, consistent communication, unclear expectation, you know, and I think a huge red flag is like if you're a leadership is like, yeah, limited vacation, but they never work.

Or excuse me, never, never, they never take vacation and they're always working or they never or when they are vacation, you're still getting emails from them, requests and things like that. I just think that is so toxic. And so I think if, you know, again, it's not implemented mindfully and people in a people centered way because, you know, people want to feel good about taking time off. Like I don't want to, I don't want to be penalized to have an other organization where it's like, I don't have double the work when I get back.

I don't want to use my time off. So I think that if the proper systems aren't in place, then it can totally be a scam. Yeah, I agree. Hope what do you think?

I also agree. And I was doing this a little bit of research as Jordan mentioned, there is a real phenomenon of people taking less time off when it's unlimited because there's less clarity around how much time people can be taking off. So they're not sure. And especially if there's not clear examples of other people taking time off, especially people in leadership, then there's uncertainty where maybe people are assuming the average here is, you know, five days, whenever like, and people don't feel comfortable or feel like they're going to be judged for the time that they take off.

So I also wanted to mention actually the culture playbook because I remember reading that before coming to join Refine Labs and seeing that like one of the points on there was don't shame other people for taking time off. So I think that that's just a really important thing to keep in mind. And I've actually found the opposite to be true at Refine where we celebrate one another taking time off. We'll share pictures of our day off, share pictures of people spending time with their kids.

They're getting ice cream. Like, that's been a really fun thing for me where it's like, okay, we're not going to be like, oh no, like this colleague of taking day off, it's more work for the rest of us. Rather, it's like, okay, great. This person deserves a break.

As we all do at some point. And so yeah, I think while it can be a scam, when the correct procedures and the measures are put in place and just like the right culture, it can really encourage time off being taken in really healthy ways. There, some of the research that I was doing was showing that productivity actually can increase when people take more time off. And there was even a study showing that people were more likely to get a razor promotion the more time that they took off.

Yeah. So that was a really interesting thing. But one of the correlations, so initially, there was an assumed correlation that when you take more time off, you'll also be less stressed. But that is actually only true when when you're prepared to take that time off or planned in advance enough.

So I think that's another important piece to keep in mind is when we're talking about unlimited time off, there still is an element of preparation and element of communication that's really important so that people can plan in advance enough. I think that ideal time that was noted in the study was up to a month in advance is really helpful so that then you're working up to that time prepared to delegate everything you need to delegate while you're gone, prepared to be completely cut off from your work while you're on vacation. And yeah, so I think there's plenty of different best practices and we'll get to that later. But there's a lot of ways that time off can really be used super well and be a huge value add.

Absolutely. So I definitely agree with both of you and you both made some good points. So one of the points made by Jordan was about the leadership team taking time off. And I think I've read many studies about like the leadership team needs and I don't take time off but they need to be the ones talking about it too.

So they need to be sharing photos and showing people that like it's okay to go on leave. And we definitely Chris Walker, as we know love his vacations. Okay. He comes back and he's like, I was on vacation and this is what I come like people do a whole meeting on what he thought about on vacation.

And this is the first time I've ever seen that in my career where a leader like the CEO will leave and come back and be like, I went on vacation and these are all the thoughts I have. Like it's actually really fascinating to watch that like he leaves and he doesn't check email. He doesn't do anything and he comes back with all of these ideas. And so I think that kind of speaks to like it's okay.

Like if our CEO is taking these breaks and coming back and saying these is all the things that have happened, that's actually happened to me too. When I've gone on leave, it's like I come back and it's funny because Jordan will tell you I have a thousand one thing that you can talk about because now I have all these ideas like I literally have a notebook. I definitely think it's important for leadership to model it. And then the second thing is to also have someone backing you up because there's nothing worse than leaving and knowing that basically everything that you needed to do is still won't be there because no one's backing you up.

So I think even having enough coverage. So like with our team, like having like hope you can back up Jordan and I can back her up too. And you know what I mean? So that when she comes back, it's not like nothing got done and there's like a big delay.

That's a major part of it is like having the teamwork because I for one have been an HR department of one before and I didn't take vacation and it was very unhealthy for me like mentally and physically because I knew I didn't have anybody to back me up. So it does create that feeling of fear. And I honestly I would go on vacations and be like, well, I can't like I have to run payroll because nobody's gonna get paid or I have to do these things on my vacation and it's so unhealthy. And I am so happy that I do not do that here.

I'm gonna get into some of the things that I do to make sure that I won't have you working. But Jordan, I know that you had some questions for me. So I'm gonna stop right here. Yeah, it's an actually hope remind me what you said reminded me of one of those questions.

It sounded like from some of the research that you did best practice. You know what they say is that you know a month in advance and I know that sometimes things come up and especially when it comes to scheduling that's a health day and things like that. You don't have them on. So I'm curious.

I know in previous employment situations, what's been communicated is at least two weeks. And is that fact or fiction? Is that a do or don't kind of what do you think? I think at a minimum that gives your team time to support you.

So I would definitely say at least. And when I say PTO, I'm not talking about like bereavement or like mental health. I'm literally talking about this is a plan vacation because I think sometimes people get that confused and like going on leave for like your mental health or bereavement. That is something totally different.

You gotta do what you gotta do. But as far as a plan vacation, I feel like two weeks is like definitely the minimum to let people know. Right. And I would prefer like hopes that a month so that everybody's ready and like, especially if you're leading teams or you have a project that you're working on so that somebody can either pick it up or that you can decide what needs to be done when you're out.

So yeah, I think two weeks is the minimum. And I really appreciate that call out just about like separating mental health from bereavement and being a autistic from a trip to Hawaii or something like that because I think a lot of employers, they're like, well, if you're not in the hospital, you better come to work. And so I appreciate the sensitivity at refine labs to us being human and some things aren't planned. And I think that's really great.

You know, I'm going to promote refine labs. So I'm like, I'm like, I love refine labs. Come work. It's great.

But you know, I do think that that's something to get right for sure. Yeah, when it comes to refine labs is 100% remote. And I know in person, one of the kind of unspoken rules is that you don't take time off, you know, in the first 90 days. What are the rules when it comes to working remote?

And you know, what do you think is best practice? So my thoughts on this is kind of twofold. So I think and I've had people during the interview process tell me like I have a wedding or already have a vacation or, you know, they already have money invested in like whatever they're going on a Disney trip, whatever. And so if that's the case, I don't see the problem with it.

Like if you brought it up in the interview, you already had this planned. It's not a problem at all. In fact, we've had someone start for two days and go on vacation because it was pre planned. Your money's already invested.

Okay. But as far as like in your first 90 days, if you're going to plan something that was not already on the calendar, I would personally say don't do it because that first 90 days you were setting a foundation. So you really need to be like learning as you go. And especially for us, we have like a schedule for you and all that which can be modified.

But I think that first 90 days is when you're setting a foundation. So if it's not already pre planned before you started, I would hold off. I really wouldn't. Yeah, that's really good insight.

And I guess related to that, like how much vacation is too much, you know, like is it, you know, if it's an employee to take some months off, you know, it's limited, right? You know, like what's the line? So that one is a good one because in my last employer, we had this issue where somebody wanted to take I want to say it was like three weeks off and they were in the middle of a project. So it was like going to hold up a client project for three weeks because they were going to be out.

And so my rule of thumb is if it's more than two weeks, you need to really speak to your manager about it. So when I say two weeks, like I've seen people take two weeks for like a honeymoon or a wedding or like something major like that. But I don't think it's appropriate to say, oh, we have on the PTO. So I'm just going to be offered two weeks.

Come on. Like what about your team? So in my mindset, I'm like, what about your team? Like you're at that point, a week off.

Okay, two weeks, three weeks, you're hurting your team because somebody still has to do the work. So that's the way I think about it. Like you're not really being a team player if you're going to do that. Now, if it's major life events, go for it.

Go to why you have the amazing honeymoon. Because that's like once in a lifetime. But if it's just a vacation, like, no, that's not appropriate. So I think taking less than two weeks at a time, like altogether, I think that would be my rule of thumb.

And then from there, I really think, you know, I take three to four weeks, you know what I mean? Like, that's okay where, you know, you're not. But at the same time, I do think it depends. Like if you're taking weeks off at a time, that's different than saying you're going to take a Friday off and then, you know, two weeks ago, take another Friday off.

Like, I actually would prefer that. Like, fine, have a long weekend, but stuff's still getting done in the middle of the week. So I think it's how you're taking it. So if you're taking weeks off at a time, you're affecting your team.

And at that point, I would say you're not a team player if you're willing to do that. That's such a good rule of thumb. And I think that really sheds light on the fact that it, there's not a one size fits all. A lot of companies, they wanted to move for that model.

If they aren't already, I know that we're starting with a lot of PTO. So it kind of makes it easier to implement. You know, that's kind of the MO, so to speak. But it does depend on kind of what your projects look like and workflows and things like that as well.

And what's going on in your life? So like, for me, I'm going to get married this year. I'm going to take two weeks off because I'm going to go on my honeymoon and stuff. But next year, that would be the case.

You know what I mean? So I definitely think it depends on what's going on in your life. And it doesn't have to be like, everyone must take four weeks off or everyone must take five weeks off because I actually think you get into a hole when you do that where you force people because I've actually seen it when I worked in on the gas where we had to use it or lose it. So the end of the year when things need to get done, no one was there because they didn't want to lose their vacation.

And so they would take off all in December. So then you had a mad rush. So that's like the opposite of what you want to do as well. So I think it just depends on the person and like just being one respectful of your team, but also respectful of yourself.

Like you need, you deserve time off, but also somebody still has to do work. So that's my only thing I always tell people, even my team, I'm like, so we're still has to get done. So who's done? Yeah.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that is something that prevents people from taking off. You know, is worried about like either being punished or like, we're not getting done.

And there is a lot of fear and uncertainty around thinking time off. So I'm curious, like in your experience and senior leadership and all the, you know, role that you've had. How do you take time off and take time off? Well, even communicating with your team that you're going, but also with yourself because you obviously you excel at what you do.

You care about what you do. And I noticed that even for me, it's hard not to want to check in and you don't care about my team, but I do know that boundaries are important. And so I'm curious how you balance that. So this is actually going to be a funny one for people that are listening.

They're going to be like, say what now? So for me, when I go on vacation, I have this very much like, I'm, I laugh and say I'm really not a multitasker. I'm one of those people that like I focus and I do one thing and then I move to the next thing. I don't have a bunch of stuff up.

Like that's, I just can't work like I'm afraid of the work that way. And so I feel the same way about work. Like when I'm working, I'm on it. Like ideas are flowing.

I'm sending messages. What's going on? What is this? You know, in both of you already know that.

So when I'm in flow, I'm like in the flow, but when I am done, I am done and I need time. So one of the rules is like when I leave my going away message is not you can reach me like I'm out, but here's my number. No, my, my away message says here's Jordan's email. Good luck.

Basically says this is when I'm going to be back. I'm not reachable. Like there's no email. There's no phone number.

You cannot reach me. I think my trust that my team has it. And when I get back, if it's an emergency, I can handle it. So that's one thing.

I do not have an away message that says you can contact me. No. And then too, I take my email and my slack off of my phone. So when I'm on vacation, I don't look at my emails.

I don't look at my slack. None of it. If it's an emergency, my like you guys could text me. But besides that, I am completely logged out.

And part of it, I think one is that I truly trust my team. I trust that you guys could figure it out and you can handle it without me. And I think a lot of leadership does. They don't trust their team.

That's what I see. I see that they don't trust their team. So they feel the need to be on vacation, be linked in and like micromanaging and all that. I'm not with it.

Like, no, if I'm going to be on vacation, I'm going to be on vacation. So that's my two cents. And I know some leaders are like, what? You don't look at it.

No, I do not. I literally delete the app. Boop. Don't.

I'm not so great insight because even if I can use notifications and things like that, it's just I was to have it. You know, like, I'm on my post Instagram, go back into Instagram and I get that with slack. I do that with email, even if it's kind of like a mindless thing for me and we need to have completely eliminates that with I love. Yeah.

So when I go on vacation, literally, if it's like that Friday, that Friday, I'm deleting. So boop, boop, boop, boop, and I'll get back on Monday. But for whenever time I'm out, I'm out. I'm completely logged out.

I don't check anything until I come back. I'm like, I'm not going to be vacationing. Like, even just for your mental health, like you need time where you're not thinking about like the next thing. Now, mind you, I will say that when I'm on vacation, I still have ideas.

Kind of like I was talking about Chris. So I have like a note in my phone where I'll be like, Oh my God, we should do this. And so I'm still like thinking of ideas, but I'm not engaging at all. And I've heard that, you know, when we are kind of at play and at rest, our brains can kind of automatically put things together because you can fit down and you're going to try to think of stuff, but so much of that happens just kind of organically and when we're having not even having fun, just like resting and not working and not kind of overburding it, burdening ourselves like they're like, there's so much for room for new ideas to like blown and stuff.

And actually, most of the stuff that we're talking about, stuff that's in the culture book, it's ironic. I wrote most of that or like put notes in my phone, most of that when I was on vacation. So it's ironic because I was like, Oh, and we could do this and I could do this. And so I was putting notes in my phone.

So it's all still going to be productive, but I'm still able to like not engage. So I highly recommend when you guys are on vacation, like could everybody off including me. I love that. Hope what do you think about that?

Um, yeah, I totally agree. I think cutting off or turning off your own vacation. Um, it just allows you to fully enjoy that time off. Um, I, on the last time that I did, um, I'm not going to be able to do that.

Um, I'm not going to be able to do that. Um, I'm not going to do that. Um, I'm not going to do that. Um, I'm not going to do that.

Um, I'm going to take a time off. I was visiting my sister who had recently lost a loved one and I had that week with her. Um, and I knew that, you know, I could still spend time with her and I could potentially still be working, but I wanted to be able to be more present with her. Um, so I, you know, checked in with my manager Jordan, um, about like what what is a reasonable, you know, level of being present and Jordan actually happened to be taking the first couple days of that week off too.

So that was, that's the really important part with communication is like, you gotta make sure that there is actually someone there to cover for you. Not everyone can be taking that time off at the same time. Um, but there's definitely ways to like negotiate around the ground that and figure out like what is a way that I can be fully present with my sister, with my family, um, and communicate with them. I do have a couple of work responsibilities.

And here's this like already specific plans, times when I'm going to check in with work, make sure that, you know, these key responsibilities are met. Um, but then I can spend the rest of the day, you know, with my family. Um, so I think if you are going to, like if there are essential responsibilities that maybe can't be covered or someone isn't there to cover for you during that time, just like carving out a specific time when you're going to focus on that so that you're not like checking on that throughout the day. Um, you know, you know, you're going to be able to do that.

Um, you know, you're going to be able to do that. Um, you're going to be able to do that. Um, um, you're going to be able to do that. Um, you're going to be honestly not going toodledats and we actually have to make this one around the way we have here.

Um, and find out what's wrong with those, you know, that you will always have to maybe go the way you are travelling and go the way you are going through yourself. We have to fill out all the way up here or the way that you are going through the way you are to eyes, like how did you go through and to the others? But because of the kind of bad things you want to take, um. And I remember, you know, if if you want to look at your own expectation, um, yeah, I think I'm off, I am going to treat you like an adult, but I know a lot of companies are not that way.

And I even know in my past, I have not been treated that way. So tell me about you guys, like, how's it gone in the past with other companies and trying to take time off? Was that respected? Were you told you still need it to work?

Like, give me your thoughts or unless I'm with you. Oh my goodness. So I, I'm like, let me get a free diplomatic here. I definitely have been in work contexts where it was almost implicitly discouraged.

Like taking vacation time was implicitly discouraged. Like in the sense that, you know, I would take the one day off like that I took off that whole quarter because my mental health was fraying. And then when I got back, my boss was like, well, these are all the things I didn't get done to literally meet me with like, oh, here's all the things that you forgot to do. And it's like, oh, I forgot to do that because I'm burning out.

So it's like completely different because when I come back to vacation, Jessica's first question to me is like, what's that mean pictures? What do you do? Like, we don't like it's a whole section of our one on one dedicated to like talking about my vacation. And I do think that just that explicit encouragement, it feels so, it's like night and day and night and day difference because I in past context where it was kind of frowned upon, either it wasn't explicitly frowned upon.

You kind of got the vibe that like, oh, this creates problems for other people. And I don't want to create problems for other people by being out, especially in smaller organizations. I just wasn't taking care of myself. You know, I would just kind of burn myself out, wasn't getting necessary like time in nature and just time at play for those great ideas to come.

So again, night and day are fine lives. Yeah, absolutely. Hope what about you? I've been in a lot of short-term jobs and a lot of them are part-time as well.

So like, pay time off wasn't really a thing. But even taking time off in general was often a difficult thing. And because of either it being a small organization or just not like structured very effectively, someone taking the day off could like seriously affect the product of the work being done. So I think that's just kind of like something that organizations and companies need to be like conscious of and aware of is like, are we taking on more than we can handle?

You know, buying off more than we can chew? Because if people cannot take care of their well-being, then like the labor that is being valued is just like expected. You know, like it's not valuing the human beings that need to take care of their well-being. There was one job where I was like, like part of the structure was teaching the employees to intentionally take one day away every month where it's kind of just like a solo retreat day.

And that is like part of your cave time. So that was something that like I literally carried on with me ever since I left that job just making sure that at least once a month, whether it's during the work day or maybe on the weekend, just having a day completely to myself where I take a little solo retreat, go to a new place and completely just focus on my own needs and like stay back and relax, you know? Because that's so, so important. Yeah, I agree.

So I'll tell you guys a funny story from actually when I lived in Chicago, so I run it. But so I worked, like I said, I worked for this company where I was the one and only HR person. So I was like, you're a director. I didn't really have any support.

Like we had an outside agency helping me with recruiting, but as far as like true like people-ops support, support, I didn't have any. And so I remember I went on a girls trip and we went to Vegas and I literally brought my computer with me. I remember there was a night that we like went out and like went dancing and I literally was like two o'clock in the morning with my laptop working, running payroll. Cause I was like scared I'd be working to pay and like I'd be back next morning.

My CEO calls me and is like, okay, I saw that you ran payroll, that's great. But I need you to do X, Y, Z. So all my friends are like passed out, like, how did a great time and I'm like secretly working? Like there was one, there was even a moment that they were like playing music so I had to go out on the balcony and I was like taking phone calls and like working horrible.

Horrible, but I still remember my friends like we laugh about it cause they're like, like they have a photo of me like in the corner. Everybody else is having fun. And I'm like in the corner with my laptop working. So don't be like, okay, that is your, you're listening to me right now and you going through that.

We have jobs. Okay, we have jobs. Right. We're gonna work with them.

We're gonna work with them. We'll not be treated like that, but yeah, we'll laugh about that. And if I can find that photo, I'll send it to you too. Cause it's pretty funny.

They're like having a great time and I'm working. So, yeah. So speaking of that, what advice would you give people that are hesitant to take time off? So would you have any advice that you would give somebody that's kind of in that situation that's different from us where it's not acceptable or, you know, they hesitate to take some time off.

Let's start with you. Hope, what would you tell them? Yeah. But this rule that I live by and I wish I could remember like the source of this quote, but just giving and producing should be coming from a place of abundance of generosity and not from a place of depletion or obligation.

And I think that has like not just changed the way that I show up at work, but the way that I navigate life all the time, like I need to check in with myself before I say yes to something about whether this is coming from a place of like, oh, I have to do this or this is, you know, if that's something not gonna work out unless I do this, I'm more like, okay, this is something I'm ready to take on in the handle. And I wanted, you know, like I already have, I'm already filled up my cup is full, you know, and I'm able to get. So I think, yeah, just being able to like be honest with yourself and before you, you know, commit to a job or commit to like not taking time off at a job that you're already at, just taking in and seeing like, am I working from a place of depletion? And if so, like what needs to change, you know?

If you're, even if it doesn't mean taking vacation or taking time off, just being able to like reassess your workload and speak with whoever you need to speak with about like, what are your boundaries? What is your capacity? Because if you don't have the capacity to be pouring into your work from the place of like having the energy for it rather than being completely extracted and depleted, then that's not going to last. Like burnout is very real.

So yeah, I feel like your job, wherever you're at, likely it's more important for your job to keep you than it is for them to like have you there 100% of the time because it's going to cost to replace. And I've definitely seen that in previous workplaces where the turnover rates were wild and there just wasn't enough priority placed on making sure that employee wellbeing was prioritized and there was a communication about like, here's what it looks like to take time off and you're allowed to do this, you know? So yeah, put yourself first because other people aren't going to, you know? Like that's for you to decide what you're capable of doing and what you have the energy for.

And your body, your mind, your wellbeing is more important than whatever you might be producing. Absolutely, you cannot pour from an into cup. So I definitely agree with you. Jordan, what do you think?

Oh, yeah, echo again. Echo everything I've said. Like we're totally aligned on that. I think as you're talking, hope I thought of this line from the show, like treat yourself, treat yourself, you know, like even if you love what you're doing, you don't want to take time off, do it, you know?

I think so yoga is a passion of mine. And you know, like I would say 99.9% of yoga classes that I've been in, you know, you work, it's like active, you know, you have the PowerPoint, you're doing your chaturangas and all this stuff. At the end of the class, you do Shavasana, you know, you can't, every action that you take, you have to counterbalance that. So if you're putting, you're all into work and kind of grinding and I know like as a grinder, it feels good to grind, but every time you have to kind of retreat and relax in order to like reap those benefits and have that balance because burnout is real.

And I think what's most pernicious about burnout is that, you know, I feel like I don't notice that I'm burning out until I burn out until I have it. Until I haven't been taking those personal days. I haven't been taking time for myself and investing in my own passions outside of the work, you know? So definitely like, I know it, but either something done, just do it, you know, and if you feel like you can't do it, come work it, we're fine laps.

Yeah. We're gonna keep plugging. So that would be my stance as well. Head over to the career page.

We got you. That is so funny, but no, I agree. You can't pour from an empty cup to that point. And I think mental health is just so important.

And I think a lot of times we think until we are down and out, you know, and we're sick, we're physically ill, that it's not okay to take time off and that is not true. So my two cents would be like, think about your mental health as well. So it's not just, you know, are you sick? Depending on where you are, obviously have mental health days, but if your company does not offer that, if you don't feel well mentally, that is also a sick day.

So I just want to say that because a lot of companies, especially I think really old school companies don't recognize that. So I wanna just point that out. Like if you do not feel mentally well, that is considered sick. So take a day or take whatever you need to do to be well.

So yeah, I think put yourself first because here's the thing. To Hope's Point, you know, they don't wanna place you. Okay, I'm gonna point it right now. Like look at the news.

They do not, the great, reshuffling or resignation or whatever you wanna call it is real. And it's affecting a lot of companies. So they want to keep you. So if that means you need to take some time off, what's the impact that having time off, you know, makes for the individual?

I think for me, it just helps me feel like really centered. So one of the things I do when I take each vacation, whether it's with my family or with my family, it's like really time with them. So that's why I don't look at my phone. Like I am committed to whatever we are doing, whether that's like, I've taken a vacation before with me, my mom just like did a staycation at hotel.

And it was so nice because I just have to spend time with her and like there was nothing else like that I needed to do. And I think that's really uncommon for a lot of people that they don't feel pulled in like multiple directions. So for both of you, like what do you think, you get out of that? What's your thing when you go on vacation?

Personally, I feel more present at work. You know, like I feel like I come back and I'm not, you know, I've definitely been in situations where I do feel nickel and diamond by my employer, I feel overworked, I feel underpaid and all the things that obviously don't contribute to retention and things like that. And I'm at work thinking about how much I hate it or thinking about how much I need it right, you know. So being able to take time, having that be encouraged and also having that be flexible, you know, it's not like, oh, you have to use it within a calendar year.

It's anytime it just gives me a lot of freedom. So that when I do take time off, I'm like you said, Jessica, fully present. Because I know that, you know, Jessica has my back and I know that I hope I was my back. I know that when I get back, I'm gonna be celebrated and the people won't be giving me the side eye because I come in an uncomfortable situation, you know.

So I do feel like more present at work and more, I don't think enough I do feel like I come back just like on fire, you know, like I feel refueled and ready to like, you know, show my employer gratitude for like having this awesome policy by making sure that like my work is on point. Absolutely. Hope what are you? Yeah, I say on addition to being more present because that's also huge for me just like, if I'm taking time off, it's usually because there's something else that is, that means my attention, whether it's just literally like taking care of myself or like other people in my life that could use my support or just could use more presence with me.

If I'm not taking time off, but those means are still there, that's going to be on my mind. That's going to be just back to me while I'm at work. But in addition to being more present, I would say I feel more aligned with myself, more aligned with my own means, my own desires, my own aspirations. If I'm not taking the time that I need to rest, to restore to do things that are just fun for me, then it's really hard for me to feel aligned with myself and with what I wanna be doing.

And then my work again isn't coming from that genuine place of creativity and excitement because those needs are not being met. So I think, yeah, feeling aligned with myself is one of the greatest impacts for me. You just maybe think of something. So another thing I think that comes up when we think about PTO and like, is it a scam is around people not, or companies not having a minimum.

So that's one thing I wanna point out is that we do have a minimum. So you must take seven days, okay, every six months. And if you don't, Jordan's gonna see it and she gonna call you. No, because I think that's really important to have a minimum.

And I think that's where a lot of companies mess up. They just say it's unlimited, do what you want. And then they don't really encourage people to actually take it. So for us, there is actually a two week minimum.

So everyone will take it least two weeks off. And so I just wanted to point that out, because I think that's the big misstep for a lot of companies, they don't have a minimum. And I think that kind of cuts off the people that like would never take it. You know, I've actually seen when I used to work in a while and I guess and I think it's so funny, is that people would brag about how much vacation they did not take.

So I remember having someone tell me, I haven't taken a vacation in two years. And I remember thinking, is that, why are you happy? Why are you talking about that? Why is that a sense of honor?

But it was like, that was the culture was that you would brag about never taking vacation. Whereas me on the other hand, I was like, what's the minimum number of days? That's what I'm gonna, I'm like, what's the maximum? That's what I'm taking?

But it was a different culture where you were praised for not taking your vacation days. And this was back in the day where people would hoard their vacation days because then if they let they would get paid off for those. So that created that culture of, I'm just gonna, I'm never gonna take time off. And then when they were they would leave, they would get paid off for those days.

And so I just think that culture, like it feeds upon itself because then it's, you know, you're feeding upon the, like people don't take time off. And then they talk about it. And then that creates a culture that's what people will shame for taking the time off. So I think we're in a very different space, but yeah, you must take at least seven days off every six months.

We don't care what you do, do a vacation, whatever, stay home, meditate, but don't kinda work. And I think it's best for everybody. So with that in mind, what do you think is kind of best practices for companies to stay competitive? Do you think companies need to have a limited PTO to stay competitive?

Absolutely not. Because I feel like it's done, again, if it's not done mindfully and not done, you know, like you said, having the minimum, making sure that the intention behind it is communicated to leadership. And communicate across the organization because what you'll find in some organizations is that some teams have leads that are like, oh yeah, take vacation. Other teams are like, don't, you know, or other teams have leads, but everyone needs to be on the same page about vacation time and needs to be communicated in the same way.

And I know for us, like, I feel like every meeting we're like telling people more and more days that they can have off, like we just announced birthday leave. I'm like, oh, we gotta wear the office so great, you know? What are the biggest experiences coming to work and people forgetting how they're saying? Like that's the only way.

So now don't worry about that. It's great. Yeah, every other Friday, I'll put just some different things like that. So we are always telling people to take their time if someone had a cool vacation and like, let's get a slideshow because we want to see pictures, you know?

So I do think that it is the best practice to celebrate people, you know, who do take that time off? Yeah, I agree. I think the celebration part of it makes it less beer based where people want to come back and show, like, this is what I did and this is how cool it was or where they went or, you know, all that good stuff. So help what about you?

Yeah, I mean, I think unlimited PTO is a great thing, but it's more just about making sure that employees know that they're valued, that they're well-being is valued, that there is generous PTO, even if it's not unlimited. And then when it's implemented, that it's done well, but it's done in a way where people know that they actually can take that time off so that you don't end up being one of those companies that, certainly have unlimited PTO, but then people are actually burning out because they're afraid to take that time off. And so I guess one of the best practices around that as well is that really clear communication piece, having a shared calendar where everyone on your team knows when you're gonna be out, they're not too much overlapping people taking time off. I think something that we can also be making more clear is just like making sure that whenever you are taking time off, requesting it for us, it's like through rippling.

That way we can also be tracking and making sure, you know, people are taking the full amount of minimum time off at least, that they should be taking off. And we can also track some of the impact of that a little better. So yeah, I think both things. And then also one thing that I was thinking of, like, I've like now been practicing taking some time off, I feel like a best practice just for the individual is like in addition to that communication before taking time off, carving out some time when you get back to catch up and not taking on too many new projects immediately when you get back because if that's the case every time that you get back from vacation or from any time off, then it's going to feel overwhelming and it's going to feel like you can't afford to do that.

But if everyone's on the same page about the fact that you're going to need a little bit of time to catch up, then it shouldn't be a problem. Yeah. Yeah, one of my tricks that I do is when I come back from vacation, like if I come back on that Monday, I normally wake up like an hour before I normally would and that way I can just go through emails and like slack and stuff. So literally that first hour is just me getting caught up and then I can go into the day.

So that's like my pro tip. And then the other thing that I was going to say is thinking about the way that we think about asking about PTO. So one of the things that I'm really adamant about is that you guys are not asking me for permission, you're just notifying me. So that's one of the things that I say is like, you're not asking me like, can I take this time off?

That is not how I look at it at all. I think about like you're just letting me know. Like so that's also a big thing that I feel like companies can do a better job of is like, I don't need permission to take vacation. Like I just am notified.

I'm putting you on notice. So sometimes people tell like PTO is let the others know, you know what I mean? I'm letting y'all know that I'm not going to be here. So it's not sufficient thing.

So I think you know, prepare the others, you know, another word for PTO. So I'm preparing the others. But I'm not going to have permission. So I think that's a big thing for a lot of people.

And even for my team, like it's, I've never, like anytime I get a vacation request, like you should have a bad idea for each other. I would have to ask permission. And it was very much like it wasn't a system. I would have to go to my boss and say, these are the days, would that be okay?

And I remember feeling like defeated. Like why do I have to ask, you know? And so that's why I think it's very important that I'm not, you're not asking me for permission. You're just letting me know.

So I think that's gonna love that an acrobatter. Yeah. You know, prepare the other, I've never heard that. But just so what you're saying earlier about, you know, you don't wanna leave your team kind of hanging.

You know, you do wanna prepare them. So I'm not gonna tell you, hey, tomorrow I'm not gonna be in. I'm gonna be mindful about this because I wanna set you up for success so that when you know I'm gonna be out of the office, you're like, okay, I know I'm gonna be prepared. I don't have to dread anything or anything like that.

Yeah, so I smell that little thing. My niece is even much younger and she's like, it's in her early 20s. She's really in the TikTok. So she sends me all of these little TikToks where it's like people saying like their vacations deny.

And they still go. And so that's where I got that prepare the others because they're like, oh, you denied it. I'm still gonna go and they're like at the airport. So I think it's so funny.

So now I've started using that. Like just prepare the others. Okay, that's what it is. I love that.

Okay, so as we wrap it up, any like final helpful resources or recommendations or any final words that you wanted to give people about your thoughts about PTO or taking it or anything of that nature. So we'll start off with you, Dwen. Yeah, absolutely. So I recently read this.

I went like an essay by Bertrand Russell called Impressive Idleness. So you can get it in hard cover, but it's also like online if you Google Impressive Idleness and it completely just like changed how I've been thinking about idleness. You know, I like to say busy, like I mentioned before, I love grinding and I love activity. But the whole essay argues that idleness actually like buttresses that activity.

Like you can't have one without the other. And they work in tandem. And I just think that it was really good encouragement for me coming out of systems where thinking time off was round upon, we're bragging about how much you worked was kind of the MO. I was like, no, I need to brag about how much I rest and restore myself.

So I highly recommend reading that if you're interested in kind of further learning. Yeah, that's a really, really good one. Hope what do you think? Yeah, I have a thought and then a recommendation.

A thought that came up during this conversation that I had not thought of before or planned at all was I feel like when we have to prepare to take time off and to delegate our tasks to other people, it forces us to be more transparent and be able to share tasks more, which I feel like a lot of different companies struggle with just the ability to have transferable responsibilities. And if there's just one person who can do something, then that puts a lot on their shoulders and then makes it really difficult to replace them as well. So that's just another thought that I had about why PTO, one of the benefits and impact of PTO that maybe is not an immediate thing that comes to mind for people. And then a recommendation, I want to go back to just the practice that I began from a previous job of doing a solo retreat once a month, I cannot recommend that enough.

And I feel like if you're struggling to come up with ideas of how to take time off, just finding a parking review where a knife will air be a bee in the city over or something, maybe somewhere in the middle nowhere. And for me, there was a period of time where I struggled to motivate myself or to feel like I deserved that day off once a month. So I literally wrote out sticky notes of here's the step-by-step process of what I need to do to make sure that this really happens. I put it on my wall.

And then every time that I'm putting the day away for the next month on my calendar, spend some time meditating or praying over, this is a day that I want to make sacred for myself. And I'm not going to let that fall through. Take care of yourself, like to be as devoted to yourself, if not more devoted to yourself than your art to your work. And be super intentional with the time that you take off.

Yeah. Yeah. So my recommendation kind of falls in line with that too. So every year my family, we choose a word, and everybody has a different word in that fair word for the year.

So my word for this year is abundance. So I will work in abundance. I will work from a place of abundance, and I will also rest in abundance. So I think that just for me, that's something that I think about when I feel, because I'm one of those people that type a overachiever.

So whenever I'm in these modes, it takes time for me to calm down and then be like, OK, now I can rest. You know what I mean? So I think even just being mindful of that, but thinking from a place of abundance, if you are giving your all at work, you should be able to rest. And that is my true.

If you're giving your all your high achieving or even you're just meeting expectations, you should be able to rest. OK? So that's my thought there. So this was an amazing conversation.

I think we went down so many avenues. But the gist of it is that unlimited BTO could be a scam if you were not at the right place. Yes. I would never work to our time labs.

You would be in the right place, and it would not be a scam. OK? It would be added value. So we're just going to end with that and know that you can reach out to any of us on LinkedIn, so feel free to reach out to us.

Or anything that you want to do, I know that there's a way to leave comments on the podcast and all those things we would love to hear from you on your comments. And you never know. We might do another podcast with all three of us, or separately. You never know.

But I'm excited about this. So thank you so much, Jordan, and hope this was a wonderful conversation. Yes. Thank you, Jessica.

Thanks everyone for listening. Absolutely, thank you.