Hello and welcome to classical stuff. You should know a podcast about philosophy in the ancient world My name is Thomas Magby. I'm joined as always by mr. Hannenberg over here and mr.
Graham Donaldson I and I feel like there's no better kind of understanding of our podcast than that AJ is about to lead us on a you know very Intellectual discussion about you know the soul, you know life, you know We're gonna go for some Greek dialogue stuff and Graham just before this podcast gave what he described as a robust belch Hey, I was trying to get it out of my system before we recorded that is Professional as we get yeah, there's a lot of things like for example my book is Plato's dialogue But my bookmark is a little mushroom little mushroom. That's really that's nice. I like that Well anyway, AJ, you're gonna be leading us through this one. So take it away Okay, so I've been doing a small series on the dialogues of Plato and unfortunately the book club that I was doing it for already Finished our final discussion before I could actually finish these episodes, but here we go We're gonna do one more and this one is the dialogue the dough spelled ph a d o And it's a dialogue between two guys one of whom was present at the execution of Socrates And so he is going to describe what happened as they talked that morning and they were hanging out with Socrates So this comes who should I forget the rest of my notes this comes before So Socrates has been condemned to death from the last one, right?
I think that was an apology I think you talked about that He's a trial and then credo is when he's in jail Yeah And so Fedo is the day of his death and his execution it was postponed for a while because they were right around religious ceremony Which is when the ship from D loss is like finally seen they're not allowed to do anything until it arrives And so his it's put off for a little while So the ship is landed that festival is over today is the day the people who've condemned him to death have pretty much said like It's gonna happen you need to prepare yourself And so Socrates is hanging out in jail with a bunch of his buddies who are allowed to visit him He doesn't have to be alone. And so his wife Zantibi who was there is just having a total connection fit And so he's like would someone please take her home and like get her out of here She's just causing trouble and doesn't need to be here So they're they're chatting and one of the things that Socrates has been doing recently is composing little verses He's taking a stops fables and turning them into little songs because he's always had a dream and in his dreams The gods tell him cultivate and make music and he's like I've always thought that was philosophy But now but I'm not entirely sure and so I'm gonna give I'm gonna give this whole composing things a little try Right, we'll see how it goes. So all of his buddies are talking to him. Do we get examples of some of those songs?
No, sadly, we don't know so then he's talking about this other this other philosopher And he says he should follow me quickly into death like go advise him after I leave that he should hurry to death as quickly as they can Everyone around is like what are you talking about like you want to hurry to death? Can you please explain this to us and he says yes? And he gives his first big postulate which is that any man who has the spirit of philosophy should be willing to die You should want to die and desire death, but you can't commit suicide. That's unlawful.
So no suicide All right, do we have is can you guys got eyes on the bell? Okay, so I want to do a little bit of quiz show if I can first question is why is it unlawful to kill oneself? You know this one Graham I mean, I know the I know our theological reason why it's unlawful We're saying like for Socrates in his time. Why would it be unlawful sure?
I mean you guys can give both like if either of you can guess the thing that he said you'll get a point for why he shouldn't kill himself Yeah, that's dishonorable. It's gonna bring shame to his name and to all his family. Okay shame responsibilities your kids need you to raise them zero okay, so neither of you got it the reason He says is because look the gods are our keepers. We are their possessions And so we do not have the right to dispose of ourselves right and I think this is actually probably still the theologian states Yeah, correct God made you and you know the right to kill yourself Yeah, exactly He's like how would you feel if you owned an ox and the ox didn't like his life and decided to off himself?
Well, you're he his life doesn't want himself his life belongs to you And so we are the possession of the gods and it's unlawful to do such a thing Would you guys still hold this position sure you guys green? This is the reason why I saw a side equals bad if my pepper plant just like you know decided to kill itself and not produce peppers I'd be upset sure okay, I don't know I'd cultivate that You guys say that this I mean this is a I guess a side conversation Would you guys apply this everything because there are times in scriptures when people commit suicide and say if I was a Commander to fall on my sword or to run on one sword this happens all the time in the Old Testament happens also and not like Roman wars It's not presented as like a this is a good thing to do. It's all kills himself, but it's not like it's not commanded It's not commanded by God. Okay.
I wasn't discussion. I want to get you know, but I'd yes the yeah the Roman commander falling on a sword Yeah, I mean as opposed to well, they're usually doing it because Society is sort of expecting it of them right so in that sense, they're like upholding something as opposed to getting out of something Yeah, but anyway, it's different than the like despair leading to it right yeah, okay So then they all say like so we don't have the right to do this and he says so we should still desire death And so it's followers say okay, you're not gonna kill yourself You should still desire death if the gods are our masters and they're great and good Why shouldn't we want to stay with them as long as possible and you are and here you are like hurrying off to death? Okay, and he guesses on what his answer are Why why hurry to death and not stay with your God's like your senses lead you astray and so you get to escape those senses and get closer to true knowledge Okay, yeah, and death you're free from pain and suffering and and you are just you get to exist in the realm of pure thought And by existing the realm of pure thought you can like engage in philosophical leisure all day long okay? So point for both of you and skip to head he does give two other smaller answers, but that's again gonna be his ultimate answer He's other quick answers are number one.
I believe I'm going to other gods who are just as good right there gods at the underworld I'll be able to have closer communion with them and also because there's other men down there who are so very good Right, and I believe they're better than the ones I'm leaving behind and I don't know why his the people in the place We're like bro, we're right here. He's like seriously He's like I'm gonna go to better people than I currently know and I'll you know That's kind of an insult to his friends, but nobody said Gary Somebody farted I think it was you the place he describes himself going the underworld like that's the like where is he? Where is he in his conception? Where's he going the underworld and what's funny is I think he actually talks a little bit about this Well, actually I have a pretty specific description of the underworld This is one of the only place you know He does this here and I think he also doesn't in the republic where he kind of gives us a vision of what the underworld's gonna look like This is not like the place heroes go or I guess this is I just the generic place probably Yes, so he will talk about where everyone kind of ends up after death in a minute But he says I think I'm going to better people and a better you know a better set of gods and that's gonna be awesome And all of his followers kind of make a joke about like won't everyone think it's hilarious when philosophers are desiring death It's like yeah, haha That's kind of funny because everyone sort of says that about philosophers anyway, they'd rather be dead so Then they kind of ask why and he says okay, we can all agree that death exists They're like yes And he says it is the separation of soul and body Philosophers shouldn't care for the pleasures of the body correct, right only for the soul which is their soul concern Hey, he would I actually kind of give it to myself as I wrote that note I was like soul so but they won't see the spelling difference Um, he would want to get away from the body and turn to the soul as much as you can The body itself is no help in gaining knowledge the eyes and the senses are inaccurate There's a quote inaccurate witnesses true Existences is itself revealed in thought if at all so the philosopher should flee from body which is a hindrance the essence of things Is perceived by the mind absolute justice beauty?
Etc. Never be seen by the eyes, but must be reached through thought alone And the body is just hindrance, so I after your episode which for our listener would have been last week he was talking about so What can you can you recapitulate what Aristotle's view is? How do we come to knowledge? You have a number of experiences you experience a lot of things and as you experience things in the same category You can make generalized statements about those categories and as you make enough generalized statements about categories You can be you can understand the art of things and then if you sort of Sort of acquiring the art of different categories is the path to wisdom generally speaking.
Yes Okay, so see stuff experiences and your senses and Aristotle starts off metaphysics by saying like aren't the eyes awesome the eyes are awesome. Yeah, eyes are great Yeah, which I feel like is actually direct almost a direct response to the quote about to read you So he's just finished talking about how pleasures don't really help and he says the thought thought is best when the mind Gave is gathered into herself and none of these things trouble her neither sounds nor sights nor pain nor any pleasure when she takes Leave of the body and has as little as possible to do with it And when she has no bodily sense or desire, but is aspiring after true true being okay And then he kind of asked a couple questions He says well, but there is another thing cineas is there or is there not an absolute justice and cineas says oh surely there is an Absolute beauty and absolute good of course, but did you ever behold any of them with your eyes and it goes certainly not and he says Or did you ever reach them with any other bodily sense and I speak not of these alone But of absolute greatness and health and strength and of the essence or true nature of everything has the reality of them ever been perceived by you Through your bodily organs or rather is not the nearest approach to knowledge of their several natures made by him who so orders his intellectual vision is to have the most exact conception of the essence of each thing he considers and that's the quote that seems like it seems Like Aristotle had just read that and then wrote his name all men want to see and aren't the eyes great Like I couldn't help but think of this exact passage when you're reading that so I didn't I originally hadn't prepared that for today But it seems to fit and so he says and he attains to the purest knowledge of them who goes to each with the mind alone not introducing or Introducing in the act of sorry not introducing or intruding in the act of thought sight or any other sense together with reason But with the very light of the mind in her own clearness searches into the very truth of each He who has got rid as far as he can of eyes and ears and so to speak of the whole body these being in his opinion distracting elements Which when they infect the soul hinder her from inquiring truth and knowledge who if not he is likely to attain to the knowledge of true being And somebody says what you say has a wonderful truth in its properties And so basically when the soul is infected with the evils of the body our desire for philosophy is not satisfied nor is the desire of truth until We can be rid of it. So just body bad mind good body bad mind good The body is the source of all sorts of evils And so the soul needs to perceive things in themselves And if that's what we desire is the truth of things and the body is only a hindrance then we should be rid of it, right? So you hate this you like totally disagree with this?
Yeah, I think it's really dumb. Okay cool. What do you guys think? I like bodies Yeah, it's gonna be alive.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah It feels like he's entirely skipping that he has any notion of essence or any knowledge of any of these ideas and like it has To come from his eyes at some point. So maybe if he said look you need some experience But by the time you're 10 you've seen about everything worth seeing and after that thought takes over But he is saying nothing no eyes no sense experience You have to simply go through your mind alone which to me sounds only like silliness It's like trying to have a factory run with no materials put into it like the factory works It's great, but we're we'll have no materials here right the factory runs best when it runs on its own So that just seems that seems ridiculous to me Okay, so he says the separation of soul and body is the soul concerned for philosophers It'd be silly for them who are living as nearly to dead as possible to get scared when it finally comes upon them Right if they're desiring to be separated from their body and they're getting as close to that as they can it'd be stupid to freak out When death finally comes near right they'd be clearly lovers of the body and not of wisdom He even says that the true virtues themselves belong only to true philosophers these people who desire death I want to get your opinion on this one. He says courage Most men only have courage because they are afraid of something else right we risk death because we are afraid of tyranny or of the death of our family or Poverty or taking of our possessions.
Yeah, right So he says really you only have courage when you lack courage and the same is true of temperance We have certain pleasures that we love right being able to take a walk and like enjoy a sunny day And that's why we avoid too much drinking or heroin or you know Whatever it is because we want to preserve some pleasures. So we avoid others which is like to have temperance We must have lack of temperance. We are still conquered by fear and by pleasure in both of those scenarios He says only the philosopher can have a real Virtue because I'm not conquered by any other fear Right if I'm separated from the body and it's not pleasures that I care about then I can have virtue in its purest form Right, I mean these are the parts of Plato we make fun of right like only the philosophers are the real humans They're the only ones who are really brave really temporary or really cool The problem is this one kind of makes sense that like a little bit about virtue That's like a weird like a Psychologizing of why a person is courageous is it possible for someone to have courage without fear of something else? Sure, like why can't it not just be the thing I'm courageous in regards to is whatever fears in front of me Is it weird to say like I'm courageous because I'm scared of my family getting hurt is that a fear?
Well, that's a lack of courage and it's not like of courage It's it's almost a desire for justice your courageous so that adjusting can happen or sorry to keep an unjust thing from happening That doesn't it doesn't seem like to be courage courageous You lack courage somewhere else's you're courageous because you also have because you don't want injustice to happen My thought I wonder if courage can even exist without fear courage I think by definition is acting when there is something to be feared, right? If I'm not afraid of anything. It's not really courage I'm just like picking up take-out food like if I'm not afraid of death and I go out to fight and I really be in courageous I think courage like isn't courage like necessitates fear or fear is necessary for the very courage for your life at all You're overcoming that fear to then do the courageous thing exactly, but not are you then saying that you also need to be scared of something else There's some other fear motivating me to be courageous. No, I don't agree I don't think that you are motivated by fear to be courageous.
You can be motivated by anything You can be motivated by justice. You can be motivated by you know Sure, but the thing you are doing I think has to be a fearful thing Right if I'm motivated by justice to do something in which I must be courageous the thing that I'm doing must be a thing I would naturally be afraid of yeah, correct This is this is again letting the fire under me to content to I have this idea of doing a The Yosef peeper book on the four carnal virtues and like and looking at all the in-depth definitions of all these virtues And I was like I'm trying to remember all the courage stuff, but I can't yeah Yeah, well, I mean there's no talk about all this stuff too. Yeah Keepers base to just like aerosol footnotes. Yeah, yeah, I feel like aerosol would be easier to read.
Oh, maybe is that fair? I mean it's hard to read I It's more condensed than this aerosol book. Yes, but aerosol is pretty great I I love me some Aristotle. Yeah, I mean there's there's a reason why everyone all the way up into the middle ages called him the philosophy Yeah, yeah, okay, so he says this thing and he's like right I've been living towards death only we can have real virtues It'd be silly to run from it and then his his followers ask the next logical question.
Can you guess? No? Are you looking forward to death? No, it's what if the soul doesn't live on?
Oh, yeah, right? So like what if you're so just scat right what if you're wrong and the soul doesn't live forever and it's just gone in With right yeah, so the same fear a lot of people have no right that if I die what if my soul just just black just let's just empty Yeah, oh, what's the so did you guys ever seen the Mike Tyson interview where he's talking to a 13-year-old girl? And she's like I'm wondering about like what your legacy is gonna be and he's like we don't have any legacy There's nothing after death. I'm just gonna be dirt like that's nothing It's all just hubris so like I just like nothing after it's just talking if there's no such thing as what people talk about I don't believe it that so this poor 14-year-old girl is getting a lesson in like nihilism from from Mike Tyson So he's got that fear obviously did you watch the fight I didn't the day I kind of tried but Netflix wasn't loading and so I watched like just the last bit of it Do you think he pulled his punches do you think he threw the fight man?
I don't know it looked I feel like Mike Tyson should just There was a moment where I was watching this I was watching the fight We should move on but there was moments watching the fun I was like what are we doing like there's like an old man at some point he was like crying and he was like He was like he was clearly pained in the what was the eighth round going to the last round the ninth round And I just saw him I was like we're just watching like a 26-year-old beating on a 50 Almost 60-year-old man. This is kind of it's like and then I went and toured the Colosseum in Rome. So Okay, so Socrates responds and says the the soul must be immortal There are two reasons he gets for this we can play quiz show on this, but I feel like this is these are tougher to get I'm like offhand. I bet you can do you know why the soul must be immortal.
Yeah Because it learns I can't remember that's close. Yeah, let's go to like that. I'll give you half a point All right, cool. There's something I like motion and we're not doing the weird element stuff We're like fire in the body is the soul whatever your weird episodes from before those were I think those were air stow Yeah, like what this what the soul is Yeah, that was good.
That was a whole lot of you know not air all of Aristotle is So there's two reasons one and this is one we discussed in a previous episode of mine is the doctrine of recollection recollection, right? We don't learn things we simply remember them I think it was maybe the last episode I did where he sort of nudge nudge taught this kid geometry and the kid gave Wrong answers and he just sort of blew past it He's like what wouldn't it be better if it was eight and not four and the kids like okay? He's like ah see he knew it already. So that's me.
No, right? Yeah, I think you know and so he goes back into that doctrine of recollection and the quick quick argument to review is he's like We have this notion of say something into something eternal like equality right what perfectly quality is but we've never actually seen that We've seen two blocks of wood that look a lot alike But the grain structure isn't the same and if we cut them open they look a little bit different They have nots in different places the same with stone right? We're gonna see veins in different places and so we've never actually seen really quality but we can imagine it and because we can imagine it We must be getting this knowledge from somewhere So either it came to us at the point of our birth right when we were born all this knowledge just popped into our heads Or we're simply remembering it because we've forgotten it because we've been reincarnated right so So he has that little piece the other piece is that he has a doctrine of opposites So there's something like warmth and cold so something they're opposite They can't be there together, but warmth comes out of cold right so if you have a warm sunny day You know it's warm because at one point you had a cold day The same is true of fast and slow things right we wouldn't know fast except that we've seen slow things and we wouldn't know slow except that We've seen fast and they come from each other and generate each other I can see someone going fast because a minute ago They were going slow and I can see someone going slow because they were going fast He says the same is true of life and death so we can see life move into death But we can't really see what death moves into but life must come from somewhere Otherwise literally everything would die and we would have no more life coming into the world. Okay.
I'm not sure I get it Okay, like yeah, you buy this. Oh, no, I think like this is this is a horrible idea So I think what's happening is he is misunderstanding how biology works that That the way life comes from death is by taking in a like inanimate material Food and then eating that and then digesting that and making it into the building blocks of life But that happens when something is already alive There was a germ of life and that life has continued in an unbroken chain until now, right? So is it possible that eventually that dies out and everything dies? Yes, he might be looking on too short of a timeline and he doesn't really understand how Like we pass on life He thinks you know something must spring into the child's child's like an inanimate child's body in a woman's belly from somewhere And so I think it's partially a misunderstanding of biology and also just a weird Equality of things like I don't know So saying that say things that rotate and things that don't rotate are opposites and one comes from the other Well, that doesn't necessarily mean there was a time when the earth wasn't rotating or wasn't orbiting the Sun, right?
He leaves no room for something that is always moving fast, right? Or something that is always doing something. That makes sense makes sense So I don't think it's a good a good doctrine. So but these two things right so kind of some slack is about to die Okay, sure give him some given the comfort of the mortals.
I just think he's got better arguments. Maybe coming later We'll make another argument for why the souls immortal. Yeah, yes kind of at least there's more talk of it because not everybody really buys this Yeah, so they're on the same page. Yeah, well, they're objections.
They say okay, you've proved that the soul will like that the soul came from somewhere Yeah, you haven't proved it will continue out of death great, right? So we're remembering stuff that we learned before doesn't mean we're gonna keep on going after He says well if we combine this with my previous argument We've proved that the soul should pass into life again after death because we hold that whole like opposites generate out of each other So from warmth comes cold but from cold has to come warmth again So life to death eventually there has to be some life or else everything would just be Die this is where it gets more complicated for him. He says, okay There are things that pass away and those things are like composite soluble things that are like put together or conglomerates For example, and he says pure things don't so like pure justice pure beauty the essence of things these things don't change But visible beauty does right so I can see a woman who is beautiful. She will eventually decay right?
I can see a coat that is beautiful. I can see a tree that is beautiful I can see a landscape that's beautiful it will all eventually change and be not as beautiful as before but beauty itself does not The things that don't change tend to be invisible so like the essence of things true beauty to true justice We can't see any of those the soul is invisible like those. It also rules the body It commands the body in the body obeys therefore It's more like divine things than earthly things and when released it won't be soluble and likely to pass away right a body Even just a body will last for a long time after death So the bones last for a long time if you're a long time if you even talk about like if you've had good habits it'll last for a really long time But the soul isn't like that like it'll it'll last for a really really long time and this is where he gets into like weird metaphysics He says souls that are tainted by earthly pleasures and desires will want to stay so a philosopher He's like body sucks. I'm out.
I don't want this anymore But anybody who's like man, I really love shiny's food is tainted by the body and they're gonna want to stick around and so this is where ghosts come from They stick around they're like and they become visible which is like a changeable thing. That's not great We don't like visible things we like invisible things or they go into animals that are like their own natures So if I'm a tyrant my soul which wants to stick around is not gonna want desire to things after death is going to go in something like a wolf Right if I am say a nice happy sociable person I'll go and be an aunt or a bee and then if I'm say really energetic I'll be a hummingbird and then you are reincarnated as that and then maybe learn and eventually get freed What if you really like Chinese food? What was that one? Oh like what would you I mean?
So the real soul untainted by the world is released and this is why true philosophers avoid pleasures They fool the mind into thinking that the pleasurable or painful thing is real when it's not they want to know the truth So they avoid these things. Wait, wait, wait, you're saying that the options are I could go off and live into the realm of like pure idea Or I could come back as a bee. Yeah, that rules. Yeah, I know I'm not really sold either or I can come back as a freakin ghost That sounds awesome.
Clearly, you know Socrates would have judged me roundly I know right we can both be beat Brad with that be awesome. It's money or like be wolves in the same pack I can imagine being a timer reading this I mean like freakin dope Yeah, it burns like hang out with pure justice. That's not like it sucks I want to like run down a hair in the middle of winter. That's not amazing lead a pack very cool Okay, I once saw a pack of wolves take down an elk.
Well, are you sure I saw that we were through binoculars We were at some part of my family we would always go out for Canadian Thanksgiving to a cottage in northern Saskatchewan And one year it was in October when you're at froze real had a big deep freeze and a lot of the river and the lake was frozen over and My dad saw sort of like commotion on the lake He's like what is that and we got over an oculus and I saw this wolf pack chasing down this elk on the frozen lake And they were just like they the elk was running and it was clearly tired and the wolves were just like sort of Cantering behind it beside it and just like taking swipes that like bites at it Until eventually the elk got so exhausted fell down and then the pack descended on it was wild That must be I mean, I don't think this will fall off this But like can you imagine running away from something and knowing that like I should have done more cardio cuz your body's just failing That's gotta be crazy. Great. So I wonder God who got reincarnated as an elk. Yeah, like what kind of constitution you have to have I don't know somebody that dare you love running Although I look pretty bad, okay, his buddies don't buy this okay, they say okay well sure But there are other things that are also invisible that don't last for example harmony, right take it take an instrument a liar Right, you've got the composite really this Socrates Yes the composite thing that will pass away the instrument right and you have the invisible thing that is unassailable the idea of harmony that will Like that is something that's invisible.
It's awesome, but the moment you break the liar that goes away What if the soul is much like harmony? Yeah, right where it is the thing that comes out of when a body is put together But when you destroy the body, it's gone. Okay, do you guys have answers for this? I know I'm asking you really hard questions.
This is a tough quiz show It's like the I the harmony is like an example of it, but the concept of harmony lasts forever Yeah, it's just a bad example right like he will disagree and say that yeah But what they're comparing it to is not similar to the body but there yeah Our idea of harmony pre-existed that liar, but I'm saying the same thing granted Yeah, so I think your response is actually better than the one he gives go and that you say like yes But the essence of harmony remains right and I think Socrates often has this confusion where he confuses the idea of something with the reality of something right like the idea of soul and actual soul Right, so yes, the idea of soul will live on sure does that mean that a man's actual soul will live on? I'm not sure it does he has that problem a few times his response is threefold number one He goes back to his doctrine of recollection, right? But we remember things so clearly our our soul was there before the instrument and that's not the way that harmony works Right, so if you don't buy his whole we are just recollecting knowledge that we previously had then that argument doesn't really land for you The second thing is that harmonies can be like some things are more harmonious and some less right like what is a what is a band? You don't like Donaldson Less less harmonious less harmonious band.
I don't like I know I don't like Okay, so you you think Taylor Swift is maybe a little less harmonious. Who do you like go back? Let's go with what Bandoy like let's go with Radiohead, okay, so there's there's radio head you got these two things and he says okay some polyphonic spree Oh, yeah, they're so weird like a band cult thing anyway He says there's some harmonies are more harmonious right you got your radiohead or polyphonic spree and then you have those are less harmonious You got your Taylor Swift right but if that so if soul was like harmony then some souls would be more soul than other souls So what exactly would that look like would that just mean like virtue and vice better people? Yeah, better people is more so but that's the thing is like he's still a real man.
He's still a soul He still has a complete soul. It's just maybe not less human. I don't know great one. I also don't think this is great.
Yeah Yeah, okay We're kind of over three right now. Yeah, finally well Here's the three this one is actually a much better one the soul directs the body and is often in opposition to it So say you are like real hungry and all you see is a big plate of candy corns You know that eating that oh would be a very bad idea right and so your brain says although you are hungry Yeah, we should not eat all these terrible candy corns But your body really wants to do it And so this is this is very different than say a liar and the harmony right if your mind was coming it was generated by your body Your body would be the one doing the directing but it's not the mind is the one doing the directing of the body And so therefore it's not like that right? It's not like when the body is destroyed the mind goes to because the mind is the one that's doing the directing right the soul is in charge Harmony's never in charge of the instrument. I think this is a better argument as to the analogy There's like a distinction between them.
Yeah, that's fair Yeah, you cannot separate the harmony of the liar from the liar playing right. Yeah, that's fair Okay, so so far he's still trying to prove that the soul's immortal Yeah, there's one more guy that's like I still don't buy it and I actually find his argument his his objection very good He says okay, look say I've got a buddy his name's Donaldson right Donaldson's a coat maker He makes a lot of coats right and he wears a coat and he'll wear it for say a year Okay, right well Donaldson gets old and he kicks it right and then I go and I look at his story sucks And I look at his coat and I say okay He's still he must still be alive right because the man lost last longer than the coat right But he's not right the coat still there But that doesn't necessarily mean that he is still there and so he's saying okay granted sure we may have existed prior And we may exist after but you haven't proven that what what's really going on is that the soul is simply long lived And so we might go through a succession of bodies we might have 10 20 50 But you haven't proved conclusively that the soul is actually irrevocably immortal right? We might go through a thousand reincarnations. That doesn't mean that this won't be your last Socrates, right?
I find that to be a very compelling one It's also hypothetical. I don't know what to do with it like yeah, sure that could be true I don't know how he it's not good to have a response, but I don't even know how you would yeah So here's his response and this is probably the most confusing and complex ones I might not fully understand it. So if you're a play-doh supporter out there, you've got it gets falling along so far Yeah, so far how do you be let's just do a check in how do you feel about the immortality of the soul are you convinced not so I mean he's not doing so good right like he's gotten some pretty good pushback and I'll be curious to get this next one But it just from what Socrates is saying. I don't think he's really answer the question that like proven to me that the soul is immortal So you don't buy the whole just you're like a recollecting knowledge thing and you're talking more I'm remembering from what I used to know from before so I must be more the recollecting never really made a lot of sense or the coming out of opposites like because there's death there must be life and so they generate each other so we must be coming out of Death and that means that the soul is moral not silly.
Yeah, I also think that's a bit silly also because like yeah, even there He's making a mistake because warmth and cold. Yes, they generate from each other, but it doesn't mean that when it's cold There's any warms right right right? It is always haunting nexus. Yes, there doesn't have to or like absolutely zero Right at that point nothing is moving.
There's no warmth left. Yes warmth will come back from it But that doesn't mean that anything has remained during that period right maybe energy I don't know anyway He doesn't know a good job here So his answer is to tell this long story about how he got interested in natural philosophy He's like I wanted to know why things were the way they were so I got looking into natural philosophy So I looked at you know Why a tree grows and why when I put two things together one plus one is two and I got into all these things And I like and this is I think why he ends up in the place He does as opposed to Aristotle is that he's like I became convinced that no one knew what they were talking about right Yeah, so two things separately are one they have the essence of one How does their essence change when I put them next to each other? They're still one right they each have an essence of one but now they're supposed to have an essence of two I don't really understand this and say there's a third thing. Yes.
Say there's a third thing. No the third thing is them together is a third thing Okay, sure you are you're blown holes in his argument already now We haven't even got through so he says okay So I've got two friends and one is greater and one is lesser and it's but by like about a heads worth of height Right once taller one sure yes is it their heads that make them taller? No, that be silly so so he goes on to say I he's like I don't understand why things are the way they are and there was this guy that said He knew and so I went to hear him and and so I'd be like he says if I was sitting here that man An ex-agorous would have told me that the reason I'm here is because Molecules make up my flesh and then my flesh is bound together on my bones and then my bones are there and like he would have sort of Described what I made of but he wouldn't have told me why I'm actually here Which is that I've been condemned by the jury to death he wouldn't have given me the answer he's like so I swept it all away these idiots don't know what they're talking about and The he's like the only cause for things is they when when they participate in a principle that is there to true cause So for example things are beautiful when they participate in the essence of beauty, right? So this is why I think Plato has flipped that on its head He says I have to know the principles first because they are the causes for what our eyes see right?
If I know what the essence of beauty is then when I see something beautiful I know it is that way because it's participating in the essence of beauty right so he inverts like what what Aristotle says Which is I need a depth of experience and that is where I get my principle He says no our principle is the cause for what you see with your eyeballs. Does that make sense? Okay? Which is why you gotta get out of the cave, which is why you gotta get out of the cave, okay?
He also has a few other principles so opposites cannot participate in essential opposites So while water comes from snow and snow from water heat and cold Cannot admit of their opposites so cold cannot admit of heat he cannot admit of cold and they destroy each other same With something like odd and even right odd will have no even with it like it won't won't accept it right? The number three it would rather be destroyed than have any evenness in it same with the number four It would rather be destroyed than have any oddness. So they cannot it will suffer annihilation rather than become its opposite So heat will destroy itself before it becomes cold guys me so far Mm-hmm, okay, but if odds get an even they're gonna be still odd huh if odds get an even they are odd So if an odd like three except an even like two they are still odd But the three is not even the three cannot be made to be even without destroying the three yes that right I can I can have a four hanging out nearby and still be odd But I will like that three will never become even himself and he says this is true even of the qualities that it brings So three has his essential threeness and one of his qualities is that he's odd And so he would rather suffer annihilation than have that quality changed are you so far? Okay, so he equates this to life and death He says the soul the thing that animates the body is the soul its opposite is death and so the soul because it is a life-bringer Will not admit of death but would rather retreat so the very essence of the soul can never admit death and so it is eternal right?
Does that kind of make sense so like like three it could never it had it brings oddness That's what it does three brings oddness. So it can never admit of evenness So three must be an eternally odd thing just like the soul is an eternally life-having thing. Does that kind of make sense? Mm-hmm.
What do you guys think of this argument? But the three can be destroyed Okay, this is I think you've keyed in on exactly why I think this argument doesn't hold right soul as an idea Yeah, cannot add a bit of death right but individual tokens of souls can and that's the thing I think he must understand his soul as a type soul as a type is a thing that is alive Yeah, but an individual soul like an individual number three if I add something else to it is now a number four That three is gone the idea of three still exists the idea of oddness still exists sure the essence of it's still there But that three has died right and with with him I think he's doing this weird thing where he flips flip-flops between the essence of something an idea of something and the actual Concreteness of it yeah the token type of it. Yeah, the token type so my soul even though it brought life to my body when I die Maybe my soul is destroyed But then the essence of what a soul is something that gives life lives on so the idea of soul is immortal the token of soul can die Yeah, so I think he's wrong here I think he does this a few times where he sort of flip-flops between the concrete and the theoretical unless the Listen the essential quality of soul is immortality. Yeah in which case then in which place and then all the tokens are are mortal They all inherit that after that.
Yeah, that might that actually may be his argument What is it is that the the inherent necessary quality of soul is immortality so because we have souls that is immortal Mm-hmm. It's like the inherent essence of three is not immortality the inherent essence of three is oddness But the inherent essence of soul is immortality. Therefore the tokens the tokens are okay about that So it's yeah, so yeah, again This is a complicated bit and he says so he says like even odd and free and too so often it's hard to keep things straight But um it's okay like this is maybe the best of the ones we've gotten and does he other anymore or is this that's it? This is this is I think his best argument Yeah, if he is actually concocting it like Donaldson says So his conclusion is a soul is immortal because it's immortal.
Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, bro Yes, that's it. Okay, so we've done are they wanted to kill it with a soul is immortal It's just one that ends with like it kind of doesn't matter like whether I Persist or not like I lived a good life. Is that this dialogue or is that a different one?
I must be a different one. I don't think it's this one He is fully convinced he's going to a better place and that the soul is immortal So he's not worried about it It gets to like bother Ajax about justice and dying as opposed to like talking to like the people here Yeah, and then the rest of the dialogue is pretty strange I mean I know that like this is standard Plato Socrates stuff and then the rest of the dialogue somebody asks him like what earth is Like he's like let me tell you buddy. It's weirder than you think I have it on pretty good authority that we only live only In a portion of the earth and the earth is way bigger and way weirder than you think it is and really we're like frogs on a pond That live only on like a one little tiny edge But if we could bring ourselves to the surface and look at the real world ooh buddy that'd be different So he says if we could I don't want to die now. I want to go explore that thing I know so he says if we could swim to the top of our atmosphere We would get a look at the real heavens and earth and so and then he kind of does a weird description of how the rivers work And they like see saw through the earth as like sometimes they flow in sometimes they bubble back out And they kind of go back and forth between these two things All of which is some of it is kind of fun and accurate some of it is very strange But what I found most interesting is that he gives a description that was very clearly Taken by Dante I think so listen to this and see what you recognize He's talking about the rivers and he says now these rivers are many and mighty and diverse There are four principal ones of which the and stuff about underground rivers So all these things flow through the earth of which the greatest and outermost is that that called Oceanis So the ocean river goes around the earth which flows around the earth in a circle and in the opposite direction flows Acuron which passes under the earth through desert places into the Acarusian lake This is the lake to the shores of which the souls of the many go when they are dead and after waiting an appointed time Which is to some a longer and to some a shorter time They are set back to be born again as animals the third river passes out between the two and near the place of outlet pours into a vast region of fire and forms a lake larger than the Mediterranean Sea boiling with water and mud and Proceeding muddy and turbid and whining about the earth comes among other places to the extremities of the Acarusian lake But mingles not with the waters of the lake and after making many coils about the earth plunges into Tartarus at a deeper level This is called the pair of fledgathon as the stream is called which throws up jets of fire in different parts of the earth So don't can you talk tell me about the rivers and Dante?
I can not because you do you do purgatory more than we barely Yeah, I haven't taught it in a couple years. Okay, so in Dante's inferno the outermost river is called the Acaron Right, which is where the souls all kind of gather and then have to go over the river of fire is the fledgathon Which is where all the tyrants live right in this sort of like boiling blood all three of these kind of go down to the very bottom The fourth river to go back to the text the fourth river goes out on the opposite side and falls first of all into a wild and savage region Which is all of a dark blue color like lapis lazuli and this is that river Which is called the stigian river and falls into the into and forms the lake sticks and after falling into the lake and receiving strange powers In the waters passes under the earth winding round in the opposite direction and comes near the Acarusian lake from the opposite side of the fledgathon and the water of this river to mingles with no other but flows round in the circle and falls into Tartarus over against the Para fledgathon and the name of the river as the poets say is Cossitus and so that is like for Dante That's the very bottom. You have the three rivers the Acaron the fledgathon the sticks the river of mud and Cossitus the very bottom such is the nature of the other world and when the dead arrive at the place to which the genius of each Several guides them first of all they have sent and passed upon them as they have lived well and piously or not and those who appear to have lived Neither well nor ear ill go to the river Acaron and embarking in any vessels Which they may find are carried in them to the lake where they will dwell and are purified of their evil deeds and having suffered the penalty of the wrongs Which they have done to others they are absolved and receive the rewards of their good deeds each of them according to their desserts But those who appear to be incurable by reason of the greatness of their crimes who have committed many and terrible deeds of sacrilege murders Foul and violent are the like such are hurled into Tartarus which is their suitable destiny and they never come out those Again who have committed crimes which altogether great are not irimidable who in a moment of anger for example Have done some violence to a father or a mother and have repented for the remainder of their lives or who've taken the life of another under the Like extenuating circumstances these are plunged into Tartarus the pains of which they are compelled to undergore for a year But at the end of the year the wave cast them forth We mirror homicides by way of costitist parasites and matricides by the fledgethan and they are born to the Acarusian Lake And there they lift up their voices and call upon the victims whom they have slain or wronged to have pity on them and be kind to them And let them come out into the lake and if they prevail then they come forth and cease from their troubles But if not they're carried back in into Tartarus and from thence into the rivers unceasingly until they obtain mercy from those whom they have wronged For that is the sentence it's inflicted upon them by their judges. All right, it goes on and on, but this is very silly What what does that do with the soul?
It doesn't and he's just cooking stuff up like at this point It feels like he's just like this is what the after-world looks like it's crazy and I found it interesting just because you know Don't take very good news on in the tradition. Yeah, Dante very very clearly just sort of wholesale lifted this stuff Yeah, and put it into the inferno. I never knew the source for that before I thought he cooked all of it up But a lot of it is just full on taken from here. Yeah, interesting So if you're a big Dante fan So I know if you have them in this school then you might want to read Fato cuz there's a little bit at the end That's interesting after this Socrates they come and tell him hey, it's time to take your poison But so and he's like oh, how does it work?
And they say well, you get up and walk around after that your legs get heavy and you lay down and the boys will take hold And he's like okay, don't they bring it to him and there's no ceremony. He just goes okay pounds it Well walks around lays down something about like a buddy owes money He says I owe a a rooster to a sleepiest right right and then he dies and it's actually I reading it and this is kind of silly I almost teared up a little bit sad like it's a really kind of romantic touching ending right where everyone is there They're all really we be but he is just living his life in full confidence that the soul is immortal even though his arguments are not that great And that he will live on a better life afterwards. So that's Fato Like is there something to the fact that the arguments aren't all that great But he still has the like the conviction in the faith in it. That's bad, right?
Yeah, it's a weak argument, but he still believes it doesn't seem like a good thing I don't think it's the right opinion like the soul is immortal. Okay, but why so what you're talking about is Wasn't it a mean-o that we talked about like knowledge is either remembered but cannot be acquired and it's just right opinion and you sort of luck Into it. Yeah, so in this way Socrates is like the blessed because he just sort of like lucky He just kind of lucked into the right opinion, but didn't actually get there by the right roads. I think that's kind of wonderful I think so.
I mean, yeah, it's like the right opinion comes from the people who've told you about something, right? Like didn't we use the example of the person who told you about the the shop? They know what's right, but they don't they've actually been there. Yeah.
Yeah, they just they just have heard of it from people who have not been lying to them Yeah, and yeah, I just wonder if that's if Socrates is aware of that or if he really does think his arguments are really good Well, I mean, I think not only he does but everyone who is there was like, oh, yes You were obviously correct by the end they're like you've nailed it the soul is immortal. I'm fully convinced I'm still not convinced by his arguments. Yeah I think he does a lot of weird conflating and and this is like and you know what listener so on one hand I'm sort of sorry for having wasted your time with a bunch of bad arguments about how the soul is immortal on the other hand I think it's important to see the progression from Plato who is just beginning to sort of search out real philosophy They're all sort of stumbling around into something like Aristotle and then Thomas Aquinas who builds this massive You know Like logical castle so it's it's interesting to see the progression when they're they haven't necessarily fleshed out all the rules of logic yet And then he sort of arrives it may be worth listener to go seek out AJ's episodes on day anima Because that's where he talks about Aristotle's view of the soul, which we also found wacky which was also very wacky Yeah, so you know, I mean Just because it's a classic doesn't mean that it's something you should buy wholesale, but it's it's you know where stuff comes From in the western I think that's the other value to it is knowing where don't take up his four rivers from right knowing That he didn't just come up with that off the top of his head He sort of this idea was in the ether already and he just had to sort of take it and reapply it and there you get another classic So that's it. Well, this has been classical stuff.
You should know you can find us online at classical stuff.net You can find us on Twitter X whatever CLS CAL stuff you can find us on patreon patreon.com slash classical stuff where we post our in-between episodes Which we record after every one of our episodes. We're gonna record one of those right now You can send us an email the guys at classical stuff.net or give us a call I'm gonna give AJ's personal cell phone number right now get ready. This has been classical stuff. Thanks everyone.
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