272: Sir Thomas More

Hey everybody and we'll talk about classical things which includes books and philosophy and art from 100 years ago earlier my name is a hamburger here. It's on this. It's on this. It's on this.

And grand alton. Oh, it's a bit on this. Maybe in mayhem. Don't say anything.

I'm going to make it. It's on this. That's good. Um, okay.

This is my life. I'm not thinking of you guys. I just can't think of my face. Do things today.

Um, so today we are talking about a amount of your biography. Uh, he's not, he doesn't. He does surfing. He does desert.

He's really an interesting. So he can. He can. He do it all.

He's a, he doesn't leaf sports in the wizard. It falls forth. Football. That's not really how the rest of the sport.

Yeah. We're going to kill him. He goes to watch the leaves changing. Man, bro, he's in the world.

So we're talking about that. I'm talking about that. We're talking about search on this more. And we're not really going to be talking about the full historical search on this more.

We're going to be talking about play right in 1960 by Robert Bolt. Who I have not even. I mean, I know he wrote man for all seasons. I don't know anything else.

That's our point. Um, and he wrote this play called a man for all seasons about the death of search on this more. And then talk a little bit about the play Thomas More and how Bolt sort of, um, what kind of man bolt or Thomas More dies for a read for a cause or a belief for a system from body in certain something. And, um, yeah.

So we're just going to, I want to just, yeah, it's a great play. We do it now in our government class. So we're just going to get it. Yeah.

And I use it in our government class. We talk about, well, we talk about the four eras kind of of Western civilization history. So we talk about antiquity, the Middle Ages, the Renaissance and the modern world. And in each of those quarters, we have two books, a book that kind of showcases maybe the best version of that era.

And then I have the worst version of that era or a story that talks about like the transition of the era to the new one. And so a man for all seasons is the book that comes in the medieval quarter talking about the transition from the older medieval world to the modern, modern, modern, modern enlightenment. And, um, and, and, um, and Thomas More ends up being kind of like the paradigm person of the enlightenment. And, um, let's talk about that.

Um, certain Thomas More was a, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was a statesman. He was chancellor in England during the reign of Henry VIII. And so this kind of can be not an epilogue to the, um, where the Rosa series, but, uh, the world of roses was a giant mess of a couple of generations in English history.

And if you're interested in it, we did a big old long many part series on the world of roses following a many long part series of history of the plantagenicals. And at the end of it, it ended with the marriage of Henry VII to Elizabeth, um, um, uh, Princess of York, and they got married together became a house of two or this new two-year house. And their son Henry becomes King of England. Henry VIII was supposed to be King of England, supposed to be his older brother, whose name I think was Arthur, which would be cool because what we came Arthur was dope, um, but things are totally on that.

I'm not so good at fact. Okay. Okay. It was an elder brother or two sisters, Margaret and Mary.

So Arthur, um, in order to sort of solidify relations with, uh, the Spanish Mary's Catherine of Ehrnacht, Arthur and Catherine get married. Catherine, the Princess of Ehrnacht, um, they get married and so you got this, like, a sentence Spanish power. This is, you know, the, the 1500s in Spain is a global power. This is the era of like, on these doors and sailing around the world and Spanish gold and all that stuff.

Um, and then you have England, um, who sort of rebuilding after this tumultuous era of the world, the roses and after two generations removed. Everybody remembers that if we have a week thrown, if we have a week King, England could be a set for difficulty in bloodshed and problems. So there's always that in the back of the mind that we need to have the line of succession strong because if it's not, it just ends up being tumultuous times because everyone just, all of our grandfathers died in these wars, right? This is a people's minds.

Um, Henry VIII is so sorry, uh, uh, Bill Prince Arthur, Mary's Catherine of Ehrnacht, and Prince Arthur dies and Catherine who is supposed to be Queen of England and that alliance between Spain with the death of Arthur is kind of gone. Um, and she's still young and she's still, you know, uh, able and she's not sort of available to be married again and she could go off and marry somebody in France or marry somebody who knows. Henry VIII then becomes King of England. Um, and I think lots of people know Henry VIII and they know his story and they know that he had all these wives and he's the king that is at the time of the rise of, um, the reformation in the England Church in England and so we'll be actually a little bit of that, but I really want to get to Thomas Moore.

Henry VIII, Mary's Catherine of Ehrnacht. Now to do this, this was a political move. Catherine was like nine years older than him, I think. And, uh, which is fine, but it doesn't mean that per window of being able to bear children isn't as long as it could be a few things.

I mean, nine years, everything. Um, and having children was a needed thing in order for the security of the realm, right? Except there was a little bit of a moral problem. Uh, you're not supposed to, in search of, and you'll text me to talk about that you should not marry your brother's widow.

Um, and then very sort of, uh, the church took out quite seriously and quite literally and Catherine was not permitted to marry Henry VIII and everybody with young Henry VIII's reign, they're like, we really, really want that Spanish alliance. And so he's not our Spanish king princess king around. So they went to the Pope and got special dispensation of the Pope to be able for Henry VIII to marry Catherine Beragon. And so he's a special pope, stay up of a rule.

And in order to do this, Henry VIII wrote a book basically talking about how awesome the Pope and the church is. Now in reality, Henry did not write this book. Thomas Moore wrote this book. So Thomas Moore wrote a book for Henry, and because of this book, Henry VIII was, you know, this young powerful monarch who stands up in the world and says, the church, the Pope and the church is a supreme authority over mankind.

The church is awesome. We love the church, the eight Pope. And because of this Henry is named defender of the faith by the Catholic church. And as a little goodie, he gets the marriage, okay.

And by the papacy to marry his dead brother's widow. And Thomas Moore was heavily rumored to have been the man that Thomas Moore says he consulted and when he's heavily rumored to Thomas Moore said that wrote this thing. Okay. So Henry VIII married Catherine Beragon.

They do not get along. She is quite a bit older and she, they have a tremendous amount of difficulty having children. Specifically, a male heir. This is where my knowledge, I didn't look at the Catherine.

I'm fairly certain that she had a daughter who survives in the battlefield. I can't remember. But anyway, no male heir. And Henry VIII was not a philosopher.

Henry VIII was not a philosopher king. Henry VIII was a bit of a playboy. Henry VIII had a wandering eye. Henry VIII, he loved music, he loved drinking, he loved horseback riding and nothing.

Exactly. He was a bro king. He was tall, he was ready as the British likes to say. He was, he took after let's say Edward IV, right?

Who wanted to just like, where the rumor was that everybody that he like slept with everyone's white England, right? I remember the 4th. Henry VIII kind of took after that on that line of the family. So Henry VIII was had a roving eye and a mountain political problem.

Catherine Beragon, who was sort of increasingly pious in her inner edgy god older, was nine years older than him and was kind of losing closing the window of having an heir. And then Henry began to, well, decided he was going to secure an heir from some other means. And he falls in love with Anne-Blin, or he, Anne-Blin, touches attention. And Anne-Blin probably rightly so essentially says I'm not going to give myself over to you Henry in full body unless I'm Queen England.

Henry's like, I'm going to make a happen. But in order to do that, he now needs to get the marriage that he got some rubber stamp from the Pope, which means he has to get a rubber stamp from the Pope again. So he basically having the Pope to do the thing that the Pope had done in the first place. And the Catholic Church refuses mainly because Spain's like, no, no, do this.

This is our alliance with England. And our, you know, our princess is not some woman to be dismissed because she is not being a child. She is a princess. She is royalty.

You're not just a castor of size because she's not fulfilling the King of England's whims. No, thank you, Catholic Church. So Spain puts pressure on the papacy, not to do it. And papacy is not going to do it.

Henry VIII essentially puts pressure on his realm and all his chanclars and his, and his head chanclars at that time was Cardinal Wolsley. And he cardinals, he basically says, get it done. I want my need this marriage annulled. Cardinal Wolsley, uh, tries his best.

Cardinal Wolsley cannot do it. Uh, Cardinal Wolsley dies kind of outside of Henry VIII's favor. The person who then becomes chancellor is Thomas Moore. I'm just going to tell you the story, the history story I've been looking into the play.

Thomas Moore comes chancellor. Henry VIII asks Thomas Moore to get this thing done. Thomas Moore, uh, does not agree. It does not want to do this.

Um, he is not, he's not thinking the doors should happen. He thinks that the Pope, um, if the Pope is already given permission to marry the Pope, the Pope definitely should not get permission to a null marriage. You and all the marriage, you and all the marriage don't have a very certain circumstances that the marriage is not consummated and cannot be consummated. There's all sorts of legal things and no one can read like those things didn't come past like they had consummated the marriage.

So you can't get an annulment. Um, this is not, yeah. So Henry, Thomas Moore refuses it and, um, ultimately Henry VIII in order to get the annulment of his marriage, um, breaks with the Catholic church. It sets himself up as a supreme head of the church in England and it also has own marriage.

So he sets himself up and says like, we don't, we don't need these foreign people dictating things that are going to lead England into civil organs, could lead back to the world of the roses because the Pope's being in any, way. Um, I mean, it's a supreme head of the church and Henry was sort of politically strong enough that he could make it happen. Tons of people to send it. Um, and so this was bad.

This was going to spark religious wars, um, through a whole, um, 1600s, uh, information did, you know, itself. And I mean, we have, we sort of tip fill and dodge around like information issues on the five thousand. I don't know if we do it on purpose, but we, maybe still find interesting. But, um, Henry VIII and all his own marriage, Thomas Moore resigns the chance of chance of a chance of a chance of a chance of a chance.

He doesn't say why. He doesn't, he doesn't like publish pamphlets. He doesn't say why. Everyone knows why.

But, um, the king knows his marriage, Catherine, very good on the same packing. Um, and, uh, Henry Mary's and Berlin, she's now queen of England. They start having kids. You're queen of sign, but that's not as long.

What fell over there? Oh, I see. Um, so Henry is now very emblin and they have children and Henry creates an oath that all of his ministers and lords and great men of the realm need to sign and swear to saying that Anne-Blin is queen, that my kids, that the kids that I have with Anne are the errors to the throne and that no one's going to like come out of the world and be like, no, I'm the error to the throne because your marriage Anne was wrong. And more importantly, that you also need to swear that the marriage of Catherine Aaron was offside and the moment was right and he should never marry Catherine in the first place.

And essentially that the papacy, the Catholic Church does not have authority in England to make these sorts of claims. That was with the oath of succession. Man, we got to swear by it. Lots of people in English politics, swear by it.

And then the people that would not swear by it were considered to be treasonous. They were committing death, which means that they were committing treason by not swearing to this. Thomas Moore is someone who does not sign the oath of succession. He is arrested.

He's put on trial and he's ultimately beheaded. Um, that's the history of Thomas Moore, the historical man Robert Bull tells that story. So the play of a man for all season goes from basically when Henry VIII wants to, he's, he's sort of seeing Anne Blyan in quiet and he wants to marry her and at the end of the book is the beheading of Thomas Moore. And Thomas Moore, so let's talk a little bit about the character of Thomas Moore.

The play is less about Thomas Moore Catholic defender and is more about Thomas Moore, who stands up as a principal man for basically him holding to his conscience and to his beliefs against a system that is sort of basically making him go against his conscience and his beliefs and how far you want to take it. So the character of Thomas Moore in Robert Bull's a man for all season. Thomas Moore is a, is a sort of like this character that there's love or a law. Now that's the big thing.

So he loves law as opposed to loves, as opposed to the story, great defender of the faith. So I'm going to sort of look at some of the scenes. So, um, let's see. Um, so the scene I want to look at is that sort of gives you an example into what more values and that's kind of the picture I want to paint as I want to show what Robert Bull's, he holds up Thomas Moore as this embodiment of individual conscience and love of the leave of law, love of the institution of law and the laws protections for the individual.

And of course, you know, Thomas Moore's living in this time when everyone is just catering to the whims of the King and whatever the King wants the King is going to get. And there's a character in here, Thomas Kramer. And Thomas Kramer is essentially like if the King wants something, I'm in my interest to do whatever it takes. I will step on any historical line.

I'll cross any line to get the King wants because a strong healthy King is a strong healthy realm and I'm a patriot for doing it. And Thomas Moore is something that stands up and says there are, well, we'll see in the scene we'll see what Thomas value is. So, um, there is, Thomas is with his family and his family is just letting Thomas know like, hey, um, Cranmer is an asking questions about you and we're pretty sure this is spying your house on the spot is your, is your story. Thomas is like, of course, my story is my spy, of course he is like that doesn't surprise me.

That's why I went to hide. Um, and then there's this young man named Richard Rich who's kind of a slimy little jerk. There's Richard Rich. This is his local character, Richard Rich.

He's real person. There's really Richard Rich. And Richard Rich wants to be a big player in the world of politics. And he wants to be a move, Richard.

He wants to play the Mackey, the million games. Because it's poor. Uh, he wants to be great. He wants to be ambitious.

But he's not, but he's, um, he's someone that like he idolizes Thomas Moore because Thomas Moore is just and good. Thomas Moore never takes a bribe. Thomas Moore believes in the law. Thomas Moore double using doing right all the time.

He believes that healthy realms is thought through virtuous people. And Richard Rich wants to be employed by Thomas. And Thomas refuses to employ him because he knows Richard is kind of like two faces. Marty he tells, he's like, listen, you're not coming out for this game.

Go be a teacher. He tells, Richard, which is very fast. Great. He's like, go, he'd be a great teacher.

Go teach kids and Richard, which is like, that is the lamest job I can think of. I want to be a problem. I want to be a big, I want to be like a Mackey Valley and a schemer in this world. Anyway.

So of course, who is Richard Rich, Richard Rich, Richard Rich, Richard Rich, Richard Rich, Richard Rich towards Thomas Kramer. Thomas Kramer, who is like, he's playing the game of, of the game of his own playing the game of his politics is trying to, um, uh, suss out if Thomas Moore is going to be a problem or not. Is he going to start a rebellion or is he going to incite revolution or is he going to be, um, is he going to turn the Kings, you know, get the Kings hat out twisted around because the King loves Thomas Moore, but is angry at him because he won't, uh, he won't prove of the annulment. Um, so Richard Rich has just left the house of Thomas Moore and all the family just sort of realized that Richard Rich is dangerous.

Thomas, he is going, he's a bad man. He's going to go do bad things. Okay. So here's the scene.

Um, so, um, it's on 65. So we've got roper, which is Thomas Moore's son-in-law. We have Alice, which is Thomas Moore's daughter. We have Margaret.

So Alice, which is Thomas Moore's wife. And we have Margaret, which is Thomas Moore's, um, uh, daughter, the daughter, Alice, the wife, wrote with the son-in-law. So roper and Margaret are married. Um, and then Thomas Moore.

There's four people in the scene. Oh, we can, we can conflate Alice and Margaret, uh, together maybe. Uh, who wants to be well? I think, I think Alice and Margaret, okay.

It's a baby roper. And I'll be more. So, um, Richard Rich, basically was begging Thomas and said, employee me, I will be so loyal to you. And Thomas Moore's like, you couldn't have been, you like, you weren't even loyal to, you were coming from Kramer to, to me to basically tell me about Kramer.

You couldn't even loyal to Kramer, you never even loyal to me. And then Richard Rich leaves. And then roper says, arrest him. Yes.

For what? He's dangerous. For label. He's a spy.

There is no law against that. There is. God, then God can arrest him. He's a law, Robert, the law.

I know what's legal, not what's right. And I'll stick to what's legal. Then you said, man's law, but God's. No, far below.

But let me draw your attention to a fact. I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate. I'm no vouger.

Uh, but in the thicket of the law, there I am a forester. I doubt there's a man alive who could follow me there, thank God. Well, you talk he's gone. And go he should.

If he was a devil himself until he broke the law. So now you give the devil benefit of the law. Yes. What would you do?

Couldn't great road to the law to get at the devil. Oh, and when the last law was down in the devil turned round on you, where would you hide, rope with the laws being off flat? This country's planted thicket laws from coast to coast man's laws, not gods. And if you cut them down and you're just a man to do it, do you really think that you could stand up right in the winds that would blow then?

Yes. I give the devil benefit of the law for my own safety sake. I've long suspected this. This is the golden calf.

The laws are God. Oh, rope or your fool. God's my God. But I find him rather too subtle.

I don't know where he is nor what he wants. I'm almost up there. So fun. It is so fun.

So it is not a little scene. We got a little picture as to what Thomas Moore is. I mean, what Thomas Moore values just from that scene, what we got? I say the law.

I don't know if the third descriptive process. He cares about doing things the right way. It's like a blindness of who's impacted. It's like the method is all the matters.

That's right. He's not not vigilantism. You can't start taking the law on your own hands because they don't have no place tied. And I think deep down, he sees that the law is sprung from God somewhere.

Yeah. Getting into his legal and I think it's fair to say that even historical Thomas Moore would definitely plant the justification of man's law on earth coming from a natural law. It comes from God. I think Robert Bull tries to paint Thomas Moore a little bit more.

I'll try to move him away from a little away from a Catholic thinker or a Christian thinker or two, sort of like kind of this. I don't want to be Tom, Robert Bull's attention. But Thomas Moore, I think that you Thomas, you're right in saying that he is someone that believes in the system of it. Whereas, so Robert is a short, Robert in the sense is a short-term thinker.

We have a present problem. The present problem is Richard Rich. He has a danger to us and to you. I would cut down.

We should go after him. Thomas Moore can arrest him. He's a chancellor right now. Thomas Moore can arrest him and create a charge.

He can say like, in sight, he can give whatever. He can drop whatever charge he wants to make. And make Richard Rich is like miserable. And Rich, Thomas is not going to do that.

But that's something to jump up something to say. Until he breaks the law, I'm not going to do anything. And then that famous back and forth, he would give the double the band for the law. And Thomas Moore says, yes, for my own safe he's safe.

This country is planted with thick with laws from coast to coast. This is such a great line. And we hide in the law. This is what the law is for.

It's for an individual man to be protected and to hide in. It protects us, presumably from the whims of like Henry, from the whims of people who see the law as an obstacle to brush aside for their own desire. The law sort of needs to stand in face of that in order to be in order to protect individuals. So if everybody in power, people can log aside with that law, they'll log.

They'll do anything. But they don't do anything. And they don't have society. Yes.

So Thomas Moore is the lover of this institution of law. And as opposed to someone like in the play like Thomas Kramer, who is, whatever the king wants the king gets, and I need to be buddies with it, if I can like please the king, it'll be good for everybody. Where's Thomas Moore says, it's good for everybody if we maintain the law, if we sort of have the standard of law as opposed to have a king. And Roper wants to see a short term problem and sees a, what would be an easy solution to get rid of that problem?

But it would create a long term, it would cut down the law, and then Thomas Moore is right to say, and then where would you stand when you got to the devil and the devil turn around on you? Like then where are you going to stand on? If you've cut down the law as a place where we're supposed to hide. No, I would not arrest him.

I would not break the law for my own sake, because I need the law to protect me down the lines of Thomas. So that's one little example of Thomas's law of the law. Thomas is eventually refuses to sign the oath of succession, and he's arrested for it. And it's throwing the jail, and his house is home is stripped.

And Thomas, and so, and Thomas maintains that he has not broken the law, because people have said, with you not swearing to the oath of succession, your silence is speaking. And Thomas Moore says, the law in England is not silence against disagreement or implies disagreement. In fact, the law is silence implies consent. So he says, you should take that my silence, in fact consent, and I shouldn't be in jail for this.

And they're like, no, the king wants you to sign the thing. And he says, I'm not going to sign it. And they say, why? And Thomas Moore says, I'm not going to tell you why.

Now, why Thomas, everyone knows why Thomas Moore's not going to do it. But Thomas Moore is going to hold onto it onto the line. So let's maybe look at another little scene. Let's look at the scene when Thomas is in jail.

Let's see if I can find it. Okay. Let's see if we can find it here. Oh, jail, sorry.

I didn't plan on doing the scene, but let's do it. So go to page, let's go to page 129. Okay. So we have this is Thomas Moore's in jail.

And Cromwell, that's a Thomas Kramer. I got that wrong. Cromwell is the antagonist in here. Kramer is a character, but he's just a bit.

Cromwell is a man in Texas. So on page 129, we'll have more. I'll be more AJ, can you be Cromwell? You are the prosecutor.

You are questioning me as a prisoner. And Thomas, will you be Norfolk? Yes. You are Thomas's long-st term friend.

You're a great Duke. You're a hunter. You're a what you love to do with your little breed dogs. A whole life's great passion.

Dog breeding. You do not have legal mind. And you think Thomas is kind of being silly. You're being such an anytimeist by not swearing to the old exception.

All right. Well, you're a Cromwell. It seems a Cromwell once a time. Well, he's basically then broken.

And the king wants Thomas on his side. The king really respects Thomas. So the king, for all of Henry did his weirdo in that he wanted what he wanted. He wanted to be with Enblin.

But he did. He wanted everybody to tell him that he was actually right. Theologically speaking. And that marrying Enblin actually is the Christian thing to do.

And you never should be a character. You never should be married to a character in the first place. And Thomas Moore, a good, pious legal man, is saying something that Henry doesn't want to hear. In fact, Henry is actually, Henry would feel a lot better if Thomas told him he was doing the right thing.

And if that means forcing Thomas to tell him, well, that's right. If I force Thomas to tell me that Thomas Moore, the electom is Moore is telling me that I'm doing the right Christian thing, then I can sleep at night. But if Thomas Moore is in the tower of London because he's holding out with maybe he's right and I'm wrong and I'm going to go to hell. Henry VIII is like he wants uniformity of opinion.

He wants everybody to basically, he's deeply insecure in this kind of thing. So Cromwell's kind of, Cromwell is doing this because he wants to please the king. And the king is like, get Thomas to sign the oath. Thomas is in jail for it.

The king does not want Cromwell to torture him. Cromwell would be fine with that. But the king wants the oath of succession, so we're on page 129. Cromwell will start with holding up that he's showing the act of succession.

So Cromwell is the act of succession. It is the act of succession. These are the names of those who have sworn to it. I have as you say, see it before.

Will you swear to it? No. Thomas, we must know plainly. You're a grace, please.

Mr. Cromwell, I beg your grace is pardon. Thomas, we must know plainly whether you recognize the offspring of Queen Anne as heirs to the Majesty. The king in Parliament tells me that they are.

Of course, I recognize them. Will you swear that you do? Yes. Then why won't you swear to the act?

Because there is more than that in the act. Is that it? Yes. What it is in the act that he objects to?

Brilliant. Does it mean? And then Kramer comes in. He says, you're a grace of my life.

So let's just jump ahead from Kramer coming in. I do not exist in a cramer. You're a grace of my life. Certainly, I have no attention to being expert in police work.

It's that you are not sure of. Thomas, you insult the king in his counsel in the person of the Lord or to bishop. I shall know one. I will not tell you why I will not.

Then your reasons must be treasonable. Not must be maybe. It's a fair assumption. The law requires more than an assumption.

The law requires a fact. I cannot judge your legal standing case. But until I know the ground of your objections, I can only guess where spiritual standing to. If you're willing to guess at that, you're a great.

You should be a small man or to guess my objections. And then Kramer has another this and comes in. You do have objections to the act. Well, we know that, Cromwell.

You know my word. You may suppose I have objections. All you know is I will not swear to it. From sheer delight to keep you troll it, maybe.

Is it material? Why you won't? It is motion material. For refusing to swear, my goods are forfeit.

And I can dim the life in prison. You cannot lawfully harm me further. But if you were right in supposing, I had reasons for refusing. And right again, I'm supposing my reasons to be treasonable.

pointing out, and frankly, I don't know whether the marriage was lost or not. But, damn it, Thomas, look at those names. You know those men. Can't you do what I did and come with us for fellowship?

And when we stand before God and you are sent to paradise for doing according to your conscience, and I'm damned for not doing according to mine. Will you come with me for fellowship? So those of us whose names are damned. Sorry, for those of us whose names are there are damned.

Sir, Thomas. I don't know you're grace. I have no window to look into another man's conscience. I can damn no one.

Then the matter is capable of questioning. But that you owe your lead to your king is not capable of questioning. So way out against the certainty and sign. Some may think the earth is round and the other thing is flat.

It is a matter capable of questioning. But if it is flat, will the king's command make it round and if it is round, will the king's command flatten it? No, I will not sign. Then you have more regard to your own doubt than you have to, please command.

For myself, I have no doubt. No doubt of my ground for refusing to oath. I will tell to the king alone in which you master secretary will not trick out of me. Oh, gentlemen, can't I go to bed?

You don't seem to appreciate the seriousness of opposition. I defy anyone to live in that cell for a year and not appreciate the seriousness of his position. Yet the state has horse or punch us. Anyone who will find them from a sort of...

Oh, no, really, that's fine. So fine. You've threatened like a dark side bully. Yeah.

And he says, how should I threaten him or say, I'm going to say, you should threaten with justice. No, so good. So again, we see Thomas is not going to swear to it. Thomas realizes that he can't do anything legally to him other than what they're done, which is a prison him.

Unless they have to be voted, he's not going to discharge his soul to them and tell them the reason why he's not going to sign. He does not agree that he's not agree that the line says a pope is not authority and that the marriage was in fact no. But he's not going to, he's not going to say about it. Thomas seems when he is talking to, I think, either Norfolk or maybe even to his son-in-law, Robert.

When Thomas more says, it's not the question that I believe it. It's more the question that I believe it. So he's saying, it's almost like the thing itself is not at the debate. What's at debate right now is does this, like, does the state have the authority to force a man to give up his word?

And that goes against his conscience later on as daughter comes to his jail cell. She begs him. She says, Father, why won't you swear? Thomas more says, a man's life.

A man's his word is like a man's self that he holds in his hands. Like like a, like a, like a, like water. And he says, if I give up myself, I open my hands and how am I supposed to gather myself back again? In other words, like if I say, and I put on the record, something out there that I do not believe to be true.

And I'm for a political reason, for my own self preservation, for anything. And I think that this is a idea that like how can I stand before God? And, and have any standing with God like, that example he said, you were going to be used to have a forgotten, and he's going to let you in because you did a quarter of conscience, and I went outside of my conscience, and I mean, he condemned for that. It's a condemnable act.

So, so Thomas more holds, so where's Thomas more going to hide? Thomas more is going to hide in the law, okay? Eventually, Thomas more is a rest, he's a rest of the adventure, Thomas more is put on trial for treason, because Sliny Richard Rich purgers himself. And Sliny Richard Richard, tell us the court something untrue.

He says that Thomas more told me that that, that, the parliament did not have the, the competence to be able to do this kind of thing about that. But if we were to go to the court, we may be even looking at some, and here's this so fun. Let's see. Oh, before we move on here, that line I was talking about when he's talking about, about, about taking an oath, this is what Thomas more says.

What a man takes a oath, Meg, he's holding his own self in his own hands, like water, and if he opens his fingers, then he needn't hope to find himself again. Some men are capable of this, but I would love to think you're father one of them. And the martyr says in any state that was half good, you would be raised high up, not here for what you've already. It's not your fault, the state's three quarters bad.

And if you elect a suffer four people elect yourself a hero. And then Thomas more says, look, if we live in a state where virtue was profitable, Thomas makes us go to agree with it, and we live like animals or angels in the happy land that needs no heroes. But since in fact, we see that average anger and deep rides a lot less in stability, commonly profit far beyond humility, jassee for justice and thought, and have to choose to be human at all, why then perhaps we must have said fast a little, even at the risk of being heroes. So, so I think the same as Thomas more is in jail or is in trial.

So, if that's the case, that's the case. If you're silent speaks and you're silent, the speaking silence is that you are, what's on this expression because I believe in that in that reason. Okay, let's look at it. Page 124, gentlemen.

One before. One's to be the slimy rich. Okay, you mean slimy rich. And then, um, it's a good problem.

Sure. That's the funny voice, that's cram. You want to cram well as the chief bad guy. Okay.

He's now actually cram well ends up taking Thomas more position as Chancellor. That's cram well. So, Thomas more is killed. So, Thomas more is killed.

Cromwell, who sort of gets on the king's good side ends up being Chancellor England. He ends up getting on the king's bad side and he gets ahead later in his life. Richard Rich ends up rising up to some of the highest positions in the realm, including Lord Chancellor of the realm, and he dies fast old and rich in his bed. But after having perjured himself in the trial of Thomas more, that's not really his work on the perjured.

Norfoot was going to be killed by Henry VIII, but Henry VIII dies before Norfoot gets gone trial. So, Henry VIII is going to be killed everybody. Henry VIII spins off into bloody madness as time goes on to try to just because he just wants, he wants sort of like, ultimate power in the realm. We're looking for blood pike back exactly.

Well, they were, I mean, I wonder if that's true, I know that's true a lot of numbers. That's why they hit madness. I don't think so. I mean, there was, um, Henry VIII because of a life of flandering was like, was like stuffed head to toe with syphilis.

So, it's not a bit of like stuff bear. Yeah, it's not a bit of stuff bear. Yeah. Okay.

So, I'm Richard Mitchell, he's born in. So, Richard start with I do solemnly swear that the evidence I shall give before the court shall be the truth of the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So, how many gods are Richard? So, help me God.

Take her stand there Richard. No, Richard. On 12th of March, you were at the tower. I was with what purpose.

I was sent to carry away the prisoner's book. Did you talk with the prisoner? Yes. Did you talk about the king's supremacy of the church?

Yes. What did you say? I said to him, I suppose there was an act of parliament to say that I Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard, would he king, would not you, not more taken for king? That I would?

He said, for then you would he king? Yes. Is Richard still Richard? Oh, yeah, Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard Richard, the prisoner?

Yes, my lord. But I will put you a higher case. He said how if there were an act of parliament to say that God should not be God? That is true.

And then you said, I said I will put you a middle case. Parliament has made our king head of the church. Why will you not accept him? Well, then he said parliament had no power to do it.

So, in a person or a word he said parliament has not the competence or words to that effect. He denied the title. He did. In good faith, Richard.

I'm sorry for your perjury to my peril. Norfolk, do not do that. Yes, my lords. If I were a man who he did not take up a note, you know well I need not to be here.

Now I will take a note. If what Master Rich has said is true, then I pray I may never see God in face, which I would not say were otherwise for anything on earth. That is not evidence. Is it probable?

That after so long as silence on this, the very point so urgently sought of me, I should open my mind to such a man as that. Do you wish to modify your testimony? No secretary. And then we're just going to get part of there, there are two other men.

And then Thomas Moore is then, is condemned on St. Mary's, he's condemned to treason. And then they said, do anything else to add. And then Thomas Moore says, to what purpose?

I am a dead man. You have your desire of me. What you have hunted me for is not my actions, but the thoughts of my heart. It is a long road you have opened.

For first man will disclaim their hearts. And presently they will have no hearts. God help the people who states men walk you a road. And then Thomas Moore is going to come with the actually, when he sees Richard Rich walked by, he sees Richard Rich's whole is wearing a chain of office.

And Thomas says, and I talk to the witness and they say, yes, Thomas goes and he says, Rich, what's that chain of office you're wearing? And Richard Rich says, oh I'm the, I'm the, um, the, our secretary, attorney general for Wales, which was the office he bought for per during as a goodie. And Thomas Moore says a great line for Wales. Why Richard?

It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world. But for Wales. And then even the subject exit Richard's stiff face but in friendly, different. And then Thomas Moore is condemned for this.

And he eventually discharges his mind and he says that, I've been a king's street subject and I pray for him and all the realm. I do know harm, I say no harm, I think no harm. And if this be not enough to keep a man alive and be faithful, I'm not to live. I have since I came into prison been several times in such a case that I thought to die within the hour and I think our Lord I was never sorry for it.

But rather sorry when it passed. And therefore my poor bodies of a king's pleasure. Would God, my death might do him some good. Nevertheless, it was not for supremacy that you saw my blood because I would not bend to the marriage.

And then he is executed. Thomas Moore is killed. And so Thomas Moore says that line where he says that like, there's no line where Thomas Moore says that it is, I'm serving the realm by being an honest man. If you populate her with liars you are sort of making disservice to the realm.

So you've kind of got like this Thomas Moore long term thinking about the integrity of the institution. And then the short term thinking of all the people they're trying to solve the crisis which is the marriage and this expression and and and and and and it's true if you don't solve the present crisis we could be going back to the troubles of the of the war the roses. And Thomas Moore is standing up and saying like people are not thinking about what precedence this is going to set in the future. If we allow the testimony of one man who's purging himself to kill somebody else.

And the only reason that you're killing me is not because something that I've done but because I believe that I have that I know even acting on that we are opening up something in society which is a world that I don't want to live in. And then Thomas Moore is headed and eventually so is Cromwell and so and almost so is Norfolk and Richard Richards that becoming rich and fandled and which is very you know sort of there's no justice in this world right Henry the eighth dies and he with a great irony of Henry of the eighth life is that after all of that Henry and all of that anxiety about a male heir his daughter becomes queen and she's one of the great queens. And so anyway so okay what I want to do for the last time when he comes. I want to do the last little bit.

So Thomas Moore is getting killed and I kind of want you to think about like the kind of man that Thomas Moore the kind of world that Thomas Moore is optimized for versus the kind of world that like Cromwell is optimized for. So this is a really interesting point in the history of England and I think we mentioned it on in between episode four but I kind of want to highlight that governments and societies and civilizations as they get more complicated and bigger and educated and wealthy and consolidated. Do a transition from one sort of form of social unity to another form of social unity. And the story of Sir Thomas Moore at least the way Robert Bull is telling it is that Thomas Moore is kind of like at the vanguard of this new movement and he's getting killed kind of by the death throws of the old movement and the two movements are when you have a more I want to call it primitive when you have a smaller society when you have like kings and lords that is a society that is ruled based on relationships that is a society that's held together based on the personal relationships between the king and his and his lords.

Think of what Norfolk said what was Norfolk's excuse or was the reason that Norfolk said the Thomas Moore says sign the oath. Look at all the other men you know these men Thomas you know those guys if they sign it you should sign Norfolk's worldview is like all the other boys are doing it and we're together right this is England we're together in this thing Cromwell is wanting Thomas Moore to do it because Cromwell wants to please the king is the grand poo and if we can have the king be happy and healthy then the realm is going to be happy like if we all get along if our relationships are sound the realm is going to be sound Thomas Moore is somebody that is not optimized for the world of relationships and when societies get more complicated they have to move from that like king based marriages creating alliances my children and your children relationships society and that's what is the coherent fabric of society to say that the glue that holds the fabric together that's not right that's a mixing of the force. I mean sure it's good fabric. Yeah but back again and Thomas Moore is very much a proponent of institutions it is not a relationship between men that holds society together it is the relationship of law and justice and the system that it creates the whole assaults together and Thomas Moore is existing and living in a time when England is moving from one to the other Henry the eight is a very strong world king and is an absolute monarch and you know he actually got the church out of yeah he became supreme heritage church he had that political power to do that and so his word was law and then you have Thomas coming in and saying that no law is higher than kings later on he says that every man dies even kings and everyone's got to say I'm before God even kings and and then someone comes in says that nothing is not the matter but so Thomas Moore is appealing to me like God, God, God, God, God, that's all right but Thomas Moore is kind of this like yeah he's the embodiment of the love of institutions and his death and he's a him sort of saying like man if we are society where people are being put on trial for the beliefs in their heart as opposed to their actions that's a society I don't want to live in I don't know what Robert was thinking about in 1960s when he's doing this I don't know if Robert was like concerned about communist which I don't know if Robert was concerned about I don't know if you have any ulterior motive with this kind of thing but to have Thomas Moore sort of say you know stand up and say a world where people are put on trial for their beliefs as opposed to world people are put on their actions is a bad world Thomas Moore is right about that but in a world where relationships are the social fabric your beliefs do matter I need to know what you think about because I need to know whether you're going to kill me or whether you're going to be you're going to be for me I need to know for best buddies if we're going to be I need to know if you got back we're going to be going off into battle together we're going to be going off into difficulties together in world of institutions I actually don't need to know what you think about me because all I know is all I care about is the actions that you do like I'm a soldier and I find my thing and yeah and the actions that you do are going to be regulated by the law and so I know that because you're in a fear of punishment that I kind of know what your actions towards me are going to be I'm care what you think about me and that's just a different way of organizing society and England is moving from the we need to know where people stand in terms of friendships and relationships to we all need to know what the rules are we can play by it and so I find the story of times we're really really fascinating for that that transition goes to types of society I think a lot of people like the Middle Ages and like romanticizing relationship based society because it does feel like you lose something in an institution based society it is a little more cold it is a little more systematic I just had to think about this so my man and my wife she was going to go she was driving to Houston to pick something up that she from an auction house she got something in an auction and she was going to be budding up real close to the deadline when the auction house was closing at the end of the work day she was driving Houston to get it and she called them and she's like hey I'm driving I'm going to go get this thing if I'm a little bit late can you sort of like say open I'm on my way I'm going to be there and I said the auction house was at five and she's like I know is there any way that I can't try to call you back and like you hold it for me he's like well you have not got here they are close to the five he was being like very a rule based about it and I just had this thought I was thinking about this podcast if a man was living in a really small town or you the guy and you call mom you know hey Jim I'm coming to get that thing I got can you can you say open for me I'm be there I maybe five or five you would be like Amanda I know you yeah best of all I'll tell Margaret to keep the doors open for you people like that kind of society because that feels more human scale but that kind of human scale relationship doesn't work at scale when you have big you need to have institutions things get bigger that I'm going to send the police on exactly can't keep it open pass by you can't keep it open he's not clean or showing up he's got parking just now like you know exactly so as society it's bigger more complicated you need to have institutions mediate human interactions when society is smaller more creative the mediated the mediation between human interactions can be personal relationships Henry VIII Cromwell Norfolk they're living in the mediated relationship world Thomas Moore is living in the institution world Thomas more getting killed is like the old world losing its its it's you know functionality the world is the world reality is changing or the times are changing and the way to optimize society before with our relationship based structures are not going to work as we get more complicated in the complex and we're now dealing with relationships with England and the church these are big big big scale things and it's moving towards institutions and so Thomas Moore's love of the law is is is that kind of like these these embodiment of that um another way I'm trying to say is Thomas Moore's worldview wins out in the ending and who does move towards institutions the West move towards institutions we still live in world of institutions they don't care who we are they're going to talk about the five they don't care if you were to beg you see you have the money to pay for the good for the item what your uncle says about the king doesn't matter you can still do business right because we live in a world of of institutions so yeah I love the play I think it's wonderful if you like this air history is worth reading Thomas Moore as a love of the law is something that I think we should all I think it's very easy for us to romanticize and want to have a world where relationships are the the um through the social operating system and I think we kind of think of institutions our legal system our financial system are you know are basically our government system of representative government all these things I think a lot you look at that and say like oh it's cold it's impersonal or maybe it's not working we should just go back to like you know back when it was a better time of you look at me on she can't know this word meant something right um it's easy to romanticize those things but like we will miss institutions if we don't take care of them and Thomas Moore is right and saying if we are going to play games if we're going to play the game of popular opinion and that's what's going to rule society that is a world that is not going to be adjust and that is not going to be as far as Thomas is concerned worth living in and he's right on that so I yeah I don't think we love our institutions enough and we look at the way that our institutions maybe fail in their scale or the people that are are not maintaining institutions and then if and then we say well the institution itself must be rotten because as an idea because it has not been properly maintained but if we went back to it's just all based on whether the grand pool likes you were not that is not a nice world living and so anyway so we've meant for all seasons it's fantastic book and even just that little heuristic of thinking about societies as like honor king based societies and institution legal based societies is really helpful to over like just sort of looking at the world understanding history yeah and then even just like when you know the US is in Afghanistan right there's a clash of two civilists there's a class of two idiots rules based system versus relationship basis and you know there's all sorts of examples of that around the world that's not anyway it's just a couple little heuristic to have when looking at history looking at stuff that's all that's all that's cool that's great this has been class of you know you can find our Patreon